Wednesday Volume 512 23 June 2010 No. 20

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 23 June 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 275 23 JUNE 2010 276

Mr Jones: Yes, my hon. Friend is entirely right. The House of Commons private sector is the key to future growth in Wales, which is why yesterday’s Budget announced a major Wednesday 23 June 2010 package of corporation tax reform that is aimed at making Britain—and, of course, Wales—one of the most competitive parts of the G20. In particular, the The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock exemption of up to £5,000 of employer national insurance contributions for each of the first 10 employees, which applies outside London and the south-east, will be of PRAYERS benefit to Wales.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): May I associate myself with the condolences expressed to the family of the late Lord Walker and also congratulate BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS the right hon. Lady and the hon. Gentleman on their appointment to their posts? LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] Yesterday, there was a recognition by the Government Ordered, of the need to grow economies outside the south-east of That the promoters of the London Local Authorities Bill England. We have argued long and hard about the [Lords], which was originally introduced in the House of Lords in overheating of the south-east and its cost to the north Session 2007–08 on 22 January 2008, may have leave to proceed of England and Wales. Will the Minister consider the with the Bill in the current Session according to the provisions of idea of either regionalising corporation tax according Standing Order 188B (Revival of bills).—(The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means.) to gross value added or devolving it altogether to the Welsh Assembly so that the needs of business can be met and real support provided for it?

Oral Answers to Questions Mr Jones: I am glad to hear that the hon. Gentleman welcomes the announcements in yesterday’s Budget. The announcement of the exemption of up to £5,000 of WALES national insurance contributions for new employment outside London and the south-east will certainly be of benefit; to that extent, it is a major departure, which I The Secretary of State was asked— am sure that the entire House will welcome. Business Relocation Mr Llwyd: May I press the hon. Gentleman on the 1. Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): What recent question of corporation tax? Does he have any problem discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on with that? At the end of the day, it is his Government’s encouraging the relocation of businesses to Wales. policy in the north of Ireland, so why does it not apply [3032] to Wales?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Mr Jones: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will (Mr David Jones): Before I answer my hon. Friend, I am welcome yesterday’s announcements. There is no plan sure that the House will want to join my right hon. to regionalise corporation tax further in the United Friend and me in expressing condolences to the family Kingdom, but I am sure that yesterday’s announcements of the right hon. Lord Walker of Worcester, whose will offer a major boost to the Welsh economy. death at the age of 78 was announced earlier this morning. A distinguished Member of the other place National Assembly for Wales and a former Secretary of State for Wales, he was a good friend to the Welsh people. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are 2. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What recent committed to attracting more inward investment to discussions she has had with the First Minister on the Wales, as we believe it will be a key driver for future proposed referendum on the law-making powers of the economic growth. National Assembly for Wales. [3033]

Jonathan Evans: First, may I associate myself with 8. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): What what my hon. Friend said about Lord Walker? May I recent discussions she has had with the First Minister also take the opportunity to welcome my hon. Friend on the proposed referendum on law-making powers of the Under-Secretary and my right hon. Friend the the National Assembly for Wales. [3040] Secretary of State to their new responsibilities and to wish them well in the challenges that lie ahead? The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Given the recognition even by the First Minister both May I also echo the words of my hon. Friend in in an interview on “The Andrew Marr Show” and recognising the tremendous work that the right hon. during the Welsh Labour conference this year that there Lord Walker of Worcester did in this House as one of are not enough private sector jobs in Wales, does my my predecessors as Secretary of State for Wales from hon. Friend agree that success depends on driving up 1987 to 1990? I am sure that all our thoughts are with private sector jobs in the Principality in the future? his family at this sad time. 277 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 278

I have had regular discussions with the First Minister neither a no vote nor a yes vote. I and my Minister will on the proposed referendum on the law-making powers remain neutral, which is the proper thing to do. The of the National Assembly for Wales. hon. Lady needs to familiarise herself with her own party, as I believe that there are split views in the Philip Davies: Given that so few people in Wales Labour party as well. actively voted for the National Assembly in the first place, will my right hon. Friend consider having a Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): The Secretary turnout threshold for any referendum on whether to of State will be aware that some of us on these Benches give the Assembly more powers so that at least a respectable will campaign with great enthusiasm for the referendum, number of people vote before we make any constitutional and were disappointed that the referendum that we changes? hoped for in October did not come about. Does she think the fact that it did not occur reflects on the Mrs Gillan: I do not know whether my hon. Friend is inactivity of the previous Government? Furthermore, aware of it, but there was a threshold of 40% for the in welcoming her news about the question, may I ask previous referendum. I am afraid to tell the House, whether the Government will make a speedy commitment however, that I am bound by the Government of Wales to a referendum in the spring of next year? Act 2006, in accordance with which there is no threshold, but a simple majority. It is therefore important, I believe, Mrs Gillan: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. that the electorate in Wales uses its right to vote on an As we said in the coalition agreement, and as I said important issue. I hope that when the referendum is before the election, I am determined to allow the people run, they will turn out in numbers. of Wales to decide in a referendum. It is only polite to accede to the request of the Assembly, which, after all, Mr Andrew Turner: What progress has the Secretary voted unanimously for a referendum, and I am sad that of State made on the question for the referendum? the previous Secretary of State commenced no work on the question and confined himself to work on the order Mrs Gillan: No work was done in the Department on that we will eventually lay before the House. I am the question prior to the general election. I am pleased pleased to confirm that I am sending the preamble and to tell the House, however, that the project board has question to the Electoral Commission. produced a question and a preceding statement for the referendum on law-making powers for the National Mr Speaker: May I just gently ask the Secretary of Assembly for Wales, and I am sending it today to the State to face the House rather than having her back to Electoral Commission for the 10 weeks that it needs to the Chair? That would be very helpful. carry out its work in proving that question. In the short time I have been in the office, I think I have achieved Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): May I join in the more than my predecessor did in the time from 17 February, commiserations to Lord Walker’s family on his death? when notice was given to him that a referendum was May I congratulate the right hon. Lady, especially on required. being the first woman Secretary of State for Wales? However, as accounts given to the media have traduced Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): May I congratulate the truth, I must ask whether she is aware that as the right hon. Lady on her new job? Despite what the Secretary of State, on Monday 10 May, in the Wales London commentariat say, it is a very important job Office, I specifically asked and received an assurance indeed. She will know that, during any referendum, the from senior officials that work I had put in train months question of Members of Parliament from Wales will be before would have enabled a referendum to be staged an issue. Will she confirm that she agrees with her this October. Before she answers, may I remind her that previous statement that there should be 40 Welsh MPs? whatever she has been saying to the media, she must not mislead this House, especially as she will not have seen Mrs Gillan: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his the official papers detailing my preparations for the warm welcome. When I dealt with him from the other referendum? side of the Dispatch Box, I always found that his courtesy was unfailing. He refers to the potential boundary Mrs Gillan: I thank the shadow Secretary of State for changes and the reduction of the number of MPs—I his welcome. I cannot comment on the advice received am sure that no one outside the House will be arguing by the former Administration; however, I do have access for more highly paid politicians. However, I take very to documents that have indicated to me that no work seriously the representation of Wales in the House, and was done on the question before the general election. If nothing will be done in reducing the number of MPs the right hon. Gentleman wishes to have a discussion that will disproportionately affect the share of voice with me about the matter, he is quite able to do so, but that Wales has in the House and at Government levels. no work was done by the Department. The only work carried out was on the order that was to be laid before Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): Would the the House. This was the first question that I asked when Secretary of State like to campaign for a yes vote in the I walked into the Department. referendum, or will she consult the electorate of Buckinghamshire first? Independent Commission on Funding and Finance for Wales Mrs Gillan: I am very proud to be the first woman to occupy the position of Secretary of State for Wales, and 3. Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): I was born and brought up in Wales. It is singularly What recent discussions she has had with the Chancellor important that the people of Wales decide on the of the Exchequer on the findings of the Independent referendum and the outcome, and I will campaign for Commission on Funding and Finance for Wales. [3034] 279 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 280

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales I am delighted to be attending the national Armed (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary Forces day event in Cardiff this Saturday, along with of State has discussed the issue of funding for Wales my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence, with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and also met His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales and the Duchess the hon. Gentleman last week to discuss the subject. I of Cornwall. My hon. Friend the Minister will also be hope that the hon. Gentleman found that helpful. attending the north Wales event in Caernarfon in July.

Roger Williams: I welcome the Minister and the Greg Hands: The Secretary of State will know that Secretary of State to their posts. the whole country is looking forward to Armed Forces Notwithstanding the review that has been promised day. Last week we were delighted when the Prime Minister after a successful referendum, there is clear and and the President of France met veterans at Royal understandable concern about the difficulties that will hospital Chelsea, in my constituency. Can the Secretary be faced in Wales because of the necessary measures of State tell us what specific proposals there are to being taken to reduce the deficit. Will the Minister involve veterans in the ceremonies in Cardiff on Saturday? commit himself to a dialogue with Gerry Holtham and with Treasury colleagues to ensure that Wales is given a Mrs Gillan: We should be very proud that Cardiff fair deal, given its historic levels of underfunding and was chosen for this year’s Armed Forces day celebration. the severe pressure put on the Welsh Assembly Government? On Monday, when I attended the ceremonial Armed Forces day flag-raising event at Cardiff castle, I was Mr Jones: The Government are committed to ensuring privileged to have several conversations with some of that Wales is properly funded, but it is clearly right for our veterans who were present, representing veterans the Treasury’s energies to be concentrated on tackling from all over the United Kingdom. I understand that the deficit left behind by the Labour party. We will they will play a prominent part in the ceremonies on certainly give careful consideration to the Holtham Saturday. commission’s final report, which is to be published this summer. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): May I ask the Secretary has already met Mr Holtham, and intends to have of State to reflect on the impact of yesterday’s Budget further meetings with him. on us in Wales, and in particular on public sector workers? Already 250 jobs have left my constituency. Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab): Do the Minister and How many public sector jobs does the Secretary of the Secretary of State recall that last November the State expect us to lose during the current Parliament? Treasury was persuaded to accept an historic reform ensuring that Wales was not disadvantaged under the Mrs Gillan: Well, I thank the hon. Gentleman for Barnett formula? Why are they not ensuring that the that question, but I find it hard to make a linkage to— agreement to protect the Welsh Budget is implemented? On Barnett, the Chancellor promised on 12 February Mr Speaker: I am sure it will not be beyond the 2010 to ingenuity of the Secretary of State somehow to respond “move on it pretty quickly, as soon as a new Government is in order, although I accept that this is a testing one. elected.” How on earth can the Secretary of State and the Minister Mrs Gillan: I am not sure how I will make that have allowed that pledge to be dumped in the long linkage to Armed Forces day, but I would say that for grass? Instead of capitulating immediately to savage those who are low paid in the public sector I was cuts, why do they not stand up and fight for Wales as delighted to see that the Chancellor had chosen not to their Labour predecessors did? freeze their pay for two years and to give them an increase of £250 in each year, which I am sure the hon. Mr Jones: Having read the so-called pledge that the Gentleman would welcome. I also welcome that our right hon. Gentleman received from the Treasury, I Prime Minister went to Afghanistan and announced think it fair to say that it was almost meaningless. As he the doubling of the pay for our brave soldiers when they knows, the Holtham commission is due to report are serving on our behalf overseas. substantively next month. My right hon. Friend and I intend to have further discussions with Mr Holtham, Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): Does my and it would be wrong to pre-empt his decision. right hon. Friend agree that one of the best tributes we could pay to the armed forces would be to offer them Armed Forces Day the best training—world-class training—and that the proposed defence technical college for St Athan could 4. Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): What well offer that training? What discussions has she had discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for with the Secretary of State for Defence about this Defence on marking Armed Forces day in Wales in project, and about the delays caused by the last 2010. [3035] Administration?

The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Mrs Gillan: May I welcome my hon. Friend to his Let me begin by paying tribute to the brave Welsh men rightful place in the House, representing the Vale of and women serving in our armed forces throughout the Glamorgan? He knows what a strong supporter I am of world, particularly in Afghanistan. They are doing a the case for the training college at St Athan, and all I very difficult job, and I am sure that all Members can say is that this is yet another example of how the present will join me in thanking them for their bravery Labour party did not stand up for Welsh interests. and dedication. Labour did not get on with this project when it had the 281 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 282 opportunity to do so when it was in government. May I that it was disappointing that, even after 13 years of the also remind my hon. Friend that planning permission previous Administration, the Welsh Affairs Committee for this project was granted by a Conservative-led local had found that authority back in 2009? “Whitehall has not fully engaged with the complex nature of the devolution settlements.” Cabinet Committees The ignorance of devolution arose under the last Government, and I hope my hon. Friend will, through the good offices of his Select Committee, put that right. 6. Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): What recent discussions she has had with the Prime Minister on the representation of the interests of Wales in Cabinet Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): I congratulate the right hon. Lady on her appointment as the Secretary Committees. [3037] of State for Wales. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) has said, she is the first woman The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Secretary of State for Wales. However, she follows a I have regular discussions with the Prime Minister and time-honoured tradition of Conservative Welsh Secretaries Cabinet colleagues on a range of issues affecting Wales. who represent English constituencies. She represents Amersham and Chesham, or is it Chesham and Amersham? Huw Irranca-Davies: May I add my congratulations Anyhow, it is somewhere in Buckinghamshire. Could to the right hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham the Governor-General, or should I say the Secretary of (Mrs Gillan) and her ministerial colleague on their State for Wales, tell me how many times she has visited elevation to the Government Front Bench, but will she Wales since her appointment? confirm that the previous Secretary of State sat on as many as a dozen Cabinet Committees and ministerial Mrs Gillan: I do not know whether I should welcome colleague sat on up to a dozen as well, and in the light of the hon. Gentleman’s remarks or just feel sorry for him. that—and of the delay in the referendum date, as well I have lost count of the number of times I have been in as the appointment of a lovable rogue whom I like very Wales since I was appointed, but I think it is about nine much indeed but is an arch devo-sceptic as Chairman of or 10 already. If that is the best he can do for a the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, and the attack question—to ask how many times I have been on a on Welsh MPs—will she tell us why this is not telling the train—when we are facing such economic troubles in Welsh that they— this country, then I do feel sorry for him, which was my first emotion. Mr Speaker: Put in the question mark! I call the Secretary of State. Manufacturing Industry

Mrs Gillan: Oh dear me. I think the hon. Gentleman 7. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): When she next needs to catch up with the procedures of the House expects to discuss with ministerial colleagues the because I believe Select Committee Chairmen are now situation of manufacturing industry in Wales. [3038] elected. That has nothing to do with the Government. Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman had spent less time The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales sitting on Committees he would know about the changes (Mr David Jones): My right hon. Friend the Secretary that were made in the House. I must remind him that of State has discussed various aspects of the Welsh what impresses the electorate is not the number of economy, including manufacturing, with ministerial Committees a Member sits on, but what they do for colleagues and will continue to do so in the coming Wales. We have already done more for Wales in the five weeks and months. weeks we have been in office than the previous Administration did over 13 years. The hon. Gentleman Mr Hanson: How many representations has the Minister might also like to note that we have reduced the number made regarding the future jobs fund and the damaging of the Committees that he sat on in his ministerial loss of more than 600 jobs in north Wales? If he made capacity to 11. It is better to have a small set of fully representations, why were they so ineffective, and if he functioning Committees where relevant people continually did not make representations, what is his purpose discuss related issues than for Members to be able to in life? boast that they are sitting on a lot of Committees. Mr Jones: The future jobs fund is an uneconomic David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): May I also way of funding new employment, and it does not provide give a warm welcome to the Secretary of State for Wales real jobs. Yesterday’s Budget statement provided firm and say, as somebody who might well be chairing a foundations for real jobs in Wales, and that is the way Committee, that I am sure that the vast majority of that Wales will go. people in Wales will want us out and about in Wales trying to put right the problems that the Labour party Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): Would not jobs created rather than sitting around in Committee Rooms? and manufacturing in Wales be helped by a decent employment initiative? The future jobs fund has provided Mrs Gillan: May I congratulate my hon. Friend on 500 jobs in Blaenau Gwent in recent years. It has had a securing his new position on the Welsh Affairs Committee? terrific impact in an area with high unemployment of I wish him well, and I hope he will bring education nearly 12%. Will the Minister or the Secretary of State about devolution to this House, because I remember please visit Blaenau Gwent? I invite them to come and reading the last Select Committee report, which said find out about employment in my borough. 283 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 284

Mr Jones: I refer the hon. Gentleman to my answer We recognise the need for Wales to be properly funded, to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), but, but yesterday’s Budget statement provides a firm foundation yes, I would be delighted to visit Blaenau Gwent. I look for good-quality jobs in Wales. forward to receiving his formal invitation. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): May I join the Defence Technical College Secretary of State in paying tribute to Lord Walker? I do so genuinely, but I am led to reflect on the fact that, 9. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): What recent since 1987, the Conservative party has not had a shadow discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Secretary of State or Secretary of State who represented Defence on the proposed defence technical college at St a Welsh seat. Athan. [3041] On the issue of law-making powers for the Welsh Assembly: after the boundary changes, what is the The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan): Secretary of State’s opinion of how many Members the This proposal is being considered as part of the strategic Assembly ought to have? defence and security review, which was debated in the House on Monday. The review is due to be completed Mr Jones: Bizarrely, the question appears to be addressed by October and I will ensure that the Secretary of State to my right hon. Friend, whereas in fact I am answering. for Defence is made fully aware of the importance of We must await the report of the Electoral Commission, our armed forces to Wales. when in due course that issue will be considered. Chris Bryant: I do not feel sorry for the right hon. Lady; I welcome her wholeheartedly to her post. However, she gave a rather partisan answer to the earlier question PRIME MINISTER about the defence technical college in St Athan, and I urge her to recognise that this issue has involved a The Prime Minister was asked— cross-party alliance in Wales. All the political parties in Wales have been supporting it, so will she meet a Engagements cross-party group of MPs so that they may put the arguments strongly? This is about protecting our armed Q1. [3682] Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): If he will list his forces, particularly the soldiers from Wales, who deserve official engagements for Wednesday 23 June. the best training they can possibly get. The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): I am sure Mrs Gillan: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on that the whole House will wish to join me in paying having raised this matter not once but three times in the tribute to Marine Paul Warren from 40 Commando past week or so. I have read the replies to him from both Royal Marines, who died on Monday, and to the member the Secretary of State for Defence and the Prime Minister. of 40 Commando Royal Marines who died yesterday. The Prime Minister said: We should constantly remember, and show our support “Everyone who has spent time in south Wales with the military for, the services and sacrifices made on our behalf by knows that there is an incredibly strong case for the St Athan our armed forces and their families. defence training establishment.”—[Official Report, 2 June 2010; Vol. 510, c. 430.] This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I I would be delighted to meet a cross-party group to shall have further such meetings later today. discuss the future of St Athan. The hon. Gentleman will know that it was one of the first things that I signed Lisa Nandy: The coalfield communities regeneration up to when I was appointed as shadow Secretary of programme breathed new life into places such as Wigan State for Wales. I will not demur from that support. after the devastation caused by the pit closures in the Public Expenditure 1980s. Michael Clapham’s review is very welcome, but the decision to freeze the funding will devastate our 10. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What her economy all over again. Can the Prime Minister reassure most recent estimate is of the level of public my constituents that he is not simply seeking to close expenditure per capita in Wales in 2010-11. [3043] down the coalfields all over again?

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales The Prime Minister: Of course I can give the hon. (Mr David Jones): The latest public expenditure statistical Lady that assurance. Let me first of all congratulate her analysis published by the Treasury in April included on her election to this House, and say how much we data up to 2008-09, in which identifiable public expenditure want to make sure, in spite of the difficult decisions that per head on services for Wales was £9,209 while the UK we have had to make in the Budget, that we go on average was £8,206. helping and regenerating communities that face difficulties. I have visited the site in Wigan where the new Lads and Mr Bone: Would the Minister agree that it is the Girls club is to be built. That is the result of excellent quality of public money spent that matters, not the joint work between the private and public sectors, and amount? Will the Government concentrate on quality we need many more projects like it. We will have more rather than quantity? to say about that next week.

Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is entirely right. The former Q2. [3683] Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Government seemed to regard it as a matter of success Pembrokeshire) (Con): The Prime Minister will be that they spent money that the country could not afford. aware of the vital contribution of the 23,000 Territorial 285 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 286

Army and other reservists who have fought in answer. The first answer is that the pension will be Afghanistan, Iraq and the Balkans in the last six years. uprated by RPI, which is likely to be higher than So far, 22 have lost their lives in those operations, and earnings next year. In terms of how much money we are the ones who survive are twice as likely to get putting into the state pension system—[Interruption.] post-traumatic stress disorder than their regular How much, they ask? We are putting in £1 billion over counterparts. What recognition and support can my the Parliament—£1 billion. What a contrast. In 13 years, right hon. Friend give to the thousands of employers Labour never linked the pension back to earnings. We who routinely allow staff to volunteer, train and engage have done it in two months. in reservist activity and who, by doing so, are critical to our military success in those operations? Ms Harman: The Prime Minister is not being straight about this. We know that there will be no increase in the The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend is absolutely pension from linking it with earnings a year early. A right to raise the contribution that our Territorial Army pensioner will not benefit from the cut in tax from plays in serving our country. He is also right to remind raising the personal allowance either, because they do us how many people have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. not get that if they are over 65, but they will pay more There are some 600 volunteer reservists serving today. VAT. The Chancellor promised to help pensioners. Will Standing up for our armed forces is not just a Government the Prime Minister not admit that pensioners will be responsibility: it is a social responsibility, and something worse off under his Budget? that we should all do. We should pay tribute to those businesses that help people to volunteer and take part. The Prime Minister: Perhaps I could recommend to We should remember their service in doing that as well. the right hon. and learned Lady the Budget Red Book, although in her case I suspect it is the unread book. If Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): she looks at page 41, she will see £1 billion going into May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the state pension system in this Parliament. What a Marine Paul Warren from 40 Commando Royal Marines, contrast. We all remember the 75p increase for pensioners. who died on Monday, and to the member of 40 Commando Under our triple lock system, that can never happen Royal Marines who died yesterday? They fought with again. bravery and they died in the service of their country. The Chancellor announced yesterday that the Ms Harman: Page 41, table 2.1, item 48 states: Government will bring forward relinking the basic state pension to earnings to 2011 rather than 2012. Can the “Basic State Pension: introduce triple guarantee”. Prime Minister tell us how much money the Treasury Money set aside: zero. The Prime Minister is not being has set aside to pay for that next year? straight about his promise to pensioners. Can I ask the Prime Minister about families with The Prime Minister: Actually, what the Chancellor children? Families with children, with an income less did yesterday was more complex than that. He said— than £40,000, may be breathing a sigh of relief that they [Interruption.] This is an extremely important point, still have their tax credits, as that was on the news last and hon. Members will want to listen. We have a triple night. But is it right? Can he confirm that—as he lock in place to make sure that the pension upgrade is at promised in the election—families on less than £40,000 the highest level possible. Next year, therefore, because will not lose their tax credit? of what we expect will happen with the retail prices index, the pension will be upgraded and increased along The Prime Minister: What we are doing is making with it. When the right hon. and learned Lady gets to sure that the less well-off families get the most money. the Dispatch Box the next time, will she confirm that What a contrast again. Since 2004, child poverty went Labour’s plans were to uprate benefits by less than the up by 100,000 under a Labour Government. In this consumer price index? Budget, child poverty does not go up by a single family. Ms Harman: There was nothing complicated at all Ms Harman: Once again, the Prime Minister is not about the question, but it was one that the Prime answering the question. The truth is that, despite the Minister did not seem to want to answer. The answer is Chancellor’s promise, the Budget small print shows big that the Government have not set aside a single penny cuts in eligibility for tax credit. The Prime Minister for that big promise to pensioners. Next year prices are promised that no family on less than £40,000 a year due to go up more than earnings, so bringing forward would lose child tax credit. Will he admit that that is not the earnings link by a year does not give pensioners the case? Will he admit that there are families on a joint anything extra. But although pensioners get nothing income of £30,000 who will lose all their tax credits? from that change we all know they will pay more in VAT. The Chancellor promised to provide help for pensioners. I am sure that pensioners, including those in The Prime Minister: The point that the right hon. and the Southwark Pensioners Action Group, or SPAG, learned Lady has got to address is who left us in this which the hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old mess. Who left a budget deficit of £155 billion, with Southwark (Simon Hughes), knows well, will want to absolutely no proposals to deal with it? Who put forward— know: are pensioners better off or worse off as a result [Interruption.] of the Budget? Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the The Prime Minister: I have to say to the right hon. Prime Minister. This level of barracking is unacceptable, and learned Lady that there is a danger in asking the and I can tell the House that it is detested by the second question without having listened to the first electorate. It must stop. 287 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 288

The Prime Minister: Thank you, Mr Speaker. in Tamworth during the recession? Further, will he Who put forward £50 billion of cuts, without outlining encourage that august journal to place the responsibility a single penny piece? The whole country can see what is for that grizzly legacy squarely where it lies? happening here: one party put us into this mess; two parties are working together to get us out of it. The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I think that I am right in saying that it was in Ms Harman: I think that what the electorate detest is Tamworth that I came face to face with the Daily broken promises, and people will want to know how the Mirror chicken, which was one of the most enjoyable right hon. Gentleman’s Budget will affect them. He was episodes of the election. He is right about the unemployment not straight with pensioners. He was not straight with figures, and one of the most important things that we families. He was not straight on VAT. When the Chancellor have got to do is to introduce our work programme, got up to present his Budget, he proclaimed: which will be the biggest, boldest scheme in the history “I am not going to hide hard choices…in the small print of the of this country to get people back to work. That is what Budget documents. The...public are going to hear them straight needs to be done, and that is the best route out of from me, here” —[Official Report, 22 June 2010; Vol. 512, c. 167.] poverty. Is not the truth that that was his first promise and that he broke it even before he sat down? Q4. [3685] Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): A 25% cut in public spending in Wales, together with a hike in The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned Lady VAT, will hit Wales especially hard. Does the Prime talks about broken promises. We remember, “No more Minister now accept that he and his Liberal friends boom and bust.” What happened to that promise? We have let Wales down? remember, “Prudence with a purpose.” What happened to that one? We remember, “We’ll protect the poorest,” The Prime Minister: I do not accept that at all. The when Labour took away the 10p tax rate. The fact is worst thing for Wales would be to continue with the that the Labour party has got absolutely nothing to say budget deficit and rising debt, and to see our economy about the biggest problem facing this country, which is slide down. The choice in terms of the Budget is the the massive budget deficit. It might be adopting road to recovery from this party, or the road to ruin Greekonomics, but we are sorting out the problem. offered by the Labour party. Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con): John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Given the size of the structural deficit that we have (LD): Is the Prime Minister aware of the interesting inherited, how many apologies has the Prime Minister progress in the European project for fusion research, of received from Opposition Members for what they have the opportunity for a materials testing facility to come left behind? to the United Kingdom, and of the suitability of Dounreay The Prime Minister: First, may I welcome my hon. to deliver that work? Will the Government support such Friend, who, I know, will speak with great passion for an application? his town of Blackpool? We should congratulate it on its footballing success recently. On that note, I am sure that The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend speaks with the whole House will want to show its support— great knowledge about scientific issues. It is important [Interruption] Yes, including all Members—for the England that we lead in such areas. His constituency, with Dounreay, team this afternoon in their key game. obviously has a huge technical edge, so I shall take his representations seriously. I have not yet received a single apology for the appalling mess that we have been left, but at some stage, the Labour party will have to wake up and realise what Q5. [3686] Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab): I a mess it made of the British economy. am sure that the Prime Minister is aware of the send my friend to school campaign, in which my young constituents Q3. [3684] Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): at Victoria primary school in Airdrie are involved and Will there be fewer police officers at the end of this about which they will be writing to him this week. The Parliament compared with the number that we have campaign aims to ensure that the Government direct today? the £8.5 billion that was committed by the previous Labour Government towards universal primary education The Prime Minister: What we want to do— by 2015. The matter will be discussed on 7 July at the [Interruption.] Opposition Members have got to start education summit in South Africa, which is tied in with getting serious about the task that we face. We want to the World cup. Has the Prime Minister personally spoken do everything that we can to keep police officers on the to President Zuma and other African leaders about streets, to have money going into our schools and to their pledges, and will he confirm that a review of the keep up spending on our hospitals, and the only way Department for International Development’s funding that we are going to be able to do it is if we deal with the will not compromise our pledge? problems of excessive welfare spending. So if hon. Members want to see police on the streets and if they The Prime Minister: First, I welcome the hon. Lady want to see well-funded schools, they have got to back following her election; I think that I am right in saying us on housing benefit and on welfare reform. That is the that she is the youngest Member of the House of way that we can keep spending up. Commons. She is quite right to talk about the millennium development goals and aid spending. It is good that it is Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con): Will the Prime common cause across the House of Commons that, Minister join me in congratulating the Daily Mirror on despite the difficult decisions that we will have to take, highlighting the terrible 172% increase in unemployment we should meet the target of 0.7% of gross national 289 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 290 income. We are committed to doing that, which means Unfortunately, two thirds of the cuts in tax credits and that we can continue to support the poorest people in benefits come after that date. Will the Prime Minister the poorest countries. We will be addressing such issues give the House his forecast of the number of children this weekend at the G8 in Canada. who will be living in poverty by the end of the Parliament? Q6. [3687] Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): Yesterday, there was support on both sides of the The Prime Minister: What I would say to the hon. House for raising the income tax threshold by £1,000. Lady is that, for the first time in any Budget—certainly Does the Prime Minister agree that a Government who since I have been in the House—we have actually published do that have to explain where the money is coming the distributional tables on what happens to income. from? Labour never did that; we have done it for 2012-13. As for what happens towards the end of the Parliament, The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a good I am pleased to say that there will be at least another point. I noticed yesterday that everyone in the House three coalition Budgets, which we look forward to supported the idea of raising the income tax threshold introducing, to make sure that we go on to protect the so that we take 880,000 people out of tax altogether. If poorest in our country. people are going to support such a pledge, which could cost as much as £4 billion, they have to say where the Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): In the closing money is coming from, but so far we have not heard days of the previous Parliament, Anthony Steen trafficked about one penny piece of one saving from any Labour through the House the Anti-Slavery Day Act 2010 to Front Bencher. In terms of Labour’s election for leader, highlight the problems of human trafficking. The it does not matter who that is, because they are not Government are required to announce a day for anti-slavery giving any figures to show where they would find cuts. day. What progress has been made on that front? Until they do that, they simply will not be taken seriously.

Q7. [3688] Mr David Crausby (Bolton North East) The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes a very (Lab): The building work for the new £20 million good point. I admired the work that Anthony Steen did. maternity supercentre in Bolton is pretty well finished, We have not set a date and he gives me an important but may I be assured that the Government’s decision to reminder that I must get back to my office and make review the making it better programme in Greater sure that we do. Manchester will not affect the expansion, and particularly the funding, of Bolton’s Princess Anne Q9. [3690] David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): For more maternity unit? than 20 years, Sky News has provided an excellent source of impartial news and analysis. Can the Prime The Prime Minister: Absolutely nobody is proposing Minister give a guarantee that, whoever ends up owning closing the new unit that has been set up. The hon. BSkyB, it will not be allowed to turn into Fox News, Gentleman will know that decisions that were taken and that there is no room here for shouty, reactionary about Greater Manchester in the previous Parliament propaganda passing itself off as fair and balanced caused a huge amount of pain in that vital part of our news? country. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health is asking the NHS to ensure that we meet the The Prime Minister: The very idea of shouty, reactionary needs of patients locally, instead of just conducting propaganda being passed in the House of Commons is top-down reviews that lead to the closure of much loved an appalling thought. As I am sure we all recognise, units. these are matters for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, who will be Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): Will looking at them very closely. my right hon. Friend tell the House what discussions he has held with the US Administration to ensure that BP Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Can the remains a strong and viable company? Prime Minister confirm that, until yesterday’s Budget, The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend the benefits for some of the poorest in society were to for raising that point. I have had two discussions with be increased at a rate less than inflation, and therefore President Obama so far, including a very good telephone cut in real terms? call last night. I made the point, especially in the earlier phone call, that of course BP wants to pay for the clean The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an excellent up and to stop the oil gushing into the gulf, and point. The Labour Government’s plans were to increase recognises that it must pay money in respect of fishermen benefits by less than consumer price inflation next year. and others who have lost their livelihoods, but we want They left a £300 million—they do not know this, the to ensure that the company remains strong and stable dupes behind the Front Bench—[Interruption.] I think for not only our benefit, but the benefit of the United dupes is an accurate description of what I am looking States. I believe that 40% of the company’s shareholders at. There was a £300 million black hole, and you do not are in the US, while 39% are in the UK, and it employs have to be a “Star Trek” fan to know that when you are more people in the US than it does in the UK, so it is in in a black hole, you should stop digging. all our interests that it is strong and secure in the future. Q10. [3691] Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): In the Q8. [3689] Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): interests of informing the dupes behind either Front Yesterday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the Bench, and in response to his answer to my hon. Friend House that, in April 2012, there would be no more the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), children living in poverty than there are today. will the Prime Minister agree to publish the tables for 291 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 292 the years following the one that has been published in Yes, we have our responsibilities to make sure that we the Red Book, which is very welcome, so that we can are living up to the military covenant and are doing all advise him on how to improve the impact of his that we can for our armed forces and their families, but policies on child poverty? it is something that communities, individuals and businesses can do, too. I understand that in Hexham, there will be The Prime Minister: What a pity the hon. Lady never a nine-hour forces celebration. When those servicemen made that point in 13 years of Government. Where and women are off duty, there will be discounts, as he were the distributional tables in the Budget after Budget said, from restaurants and pubs, so I expect that it that we—the poor dupes who were sitting at the back—had might get a bit lively, and I am sure that he will join in to listen to the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and the fun. Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) give over and over again? We have published the table for the first time. Between now Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): A consequence of and the years the hon. Lady talks about, there will be yesterday’s Budget and VAT rise is £26.5 million of new further Budgets, where we will make further progress in overheads for the NHS in Scotland. Having promised helping the poorest families in our country. to ring-fence health spending, will the Treasury now Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does the Prime cover those costs, or will this be another broken promise, Minister agree with several generals, many members of just like Lib Dem opposition to a VAT rise before the the public and me that Trident should be included in the election? strategic defence and security review? Does he agree that if there is a case for retaining it, that would come The Prime Minister: Of course, our action on national out in the review; and if there is not a case, it should not insurance contributions has saved the NHS money, be kept? which would not be available under a Labour Government. The point I would make is that that benefits Scotland. The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend will know that The fact that we are protecting the NHS and NHS that matter was carefully negotiated in the coalition spending means that money will be available in Scotland agreement between our two parties. My view is clear: as well. The shadow Health Secretary has said that Britain should retain the nuclear deterrent and we should health should not be protected, and that the NHS always keep that insurance policy against great danger. should be cut. That is now, take note, the official Although I think that there is a case for looking at the position. The Leader of the Opposition is nodding—cutting costs of the Trident system and seeing how we can bear the NHS is now official Labour policy. down on them, I do not believe that we should have the wider review that he suggests. Afghanistan (Military Patrols) Q11. [3692] Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Yesterday, we were told that resolute action was Q13. [3694] Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): necessary to deal decisively with our country’s debt. What the military purpose is of routine foot and Does the Prime Minister believe that it is acceptable vehicle patrols in Afghanistan. that Members’ allowances are being paid to Members of the House who neither take their seats nor participate in the work of the House? When will that The Prime Minister: I thank my hon. Friend for his injustice be remedied, as he promised before the question. We are conducting a counter-insurgency operation election? in Afghanistan. He asked specifically about the military purpose of routine foot and vehicle patrols in Afghanistan. The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman makes a If we are going to win the counter-insurgency and good point. My views about this issue are on the record, succeed in what is called “war amongst the people”, we and they have not changed. I would like to see if we can have to be among them, protecting them from the make the argument. There is not a case for Sinn Fein insurgents. That is how we are going to create a more Members not to take their seats. I think that at the stable and peaceful Afghanistan, from which we will be moment we let them off the hook, so I would like to able to return, leaving the Afghan forces in control. re-examine the argument and see if we can find a new way of doing this. Dr Lewis: Does the Prime Minister accept that there are other ways of fighting counter-insurgencies that do Q12. [3693] Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Saturday not involve sending out uniformed personnel along is armed forces day. In my constituency of Hexham in predictable routes, day after day, to be sniped at and Northumberland we have hundreds of Royal Artillery blown up? Will he request that his military advisers servicemen who have recently returned from focus on long-term strategies that could achieve our Afghanistan and will receive the freedom of the town. strategic aims without having to pay such an unnecessarily When they are off duty, they will receive multiple high price? discounts from dozens of stores, restaurants and pubs that are doing their bit locally. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is everyone’s duty, not just in the House The Prime Minister: I know that my hon. Friend but all around the country, to go the extra mile and takes a close interest in these matters, and I have arranged show the gratitude that we all have for our brave for him to meet senior officials and military advisers, so troops? that he can explore his ideas with them. All that I would say is that the team that President Obama has put in The Prime Minister: I very much agree with my hon. place, and the team that we have in place of military Friend. As I said earlier, this is something that the and civilian leaders, have brought great impetus to the whole country needs to do, not just the Government. campaign. It is difficult to see, if we are trying to fight a 293 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 294 counter-insurgency, how we can do so without having a can ask our banks to make a proper contribution, are number of active patrols to protect the people from the the Opposition. Once again, they have no proposals to insurgents. fill the enormous black hole that the Government are getting to grips with. Several hon. Members rose— Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab): The Office for Mr Speaker: Order. I gently remind the House that National Statistics reported that while the richest 10% this is a closed question on Afghanistan. Does anybody spent £1 in every £25 of their income on VAT, the wish to come in? No. I call Mr Jonathan Evans. poorest 10% spent £1 in every £7 of their income on Engagements VAT. How, then, can the Prime Minister justify his oft-repeated refrain that we are all in this together? Q14. [3695] Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Bearing in mind the Opposition’s claim that in Europe, The Prime Minister: What I would say to the right Britain is now isolated, will my right hon. Friend hon. Lady—it is an important point and the Red Book indicate how on earth he managed to secure both sets it out—is that the richest 10% will pay in cash terms French and German agreement to the announcement 15 times as much in VAT as the poorest 10%. The in relation to the bank levy in the Budget yesterday? important point to take into account and look at is the Budget as a whole. In the Budget as a whole, we can see The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an excellent that the richest pay the most both in cash terms and as a point. In the Budget yesterday, my right hon. Friend the percentage of their income. What we have done, by Chancellor announced unity between the French, the massively increasing child tax credits, is to ensure that Germans and the British on introducing a bank levy. there is no increase in child poverty. What a contrast The one group of people who are isolated, and who say that is with the figures since 2004. The Labour party put that we have to wait for the rest of the world before we up child poverty by 100,000. That is the difference. 295 23 JUNE 2010 296

Speaker’s Statement Points of Order

12.31 pm 12.32 pm Mr Speaker: Under the Order of the House of 15 Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): On a point of order, June, I will now announce the determination of the Mr Speaker. Is it in order to describe Members as party make-up of the Backbench Business Committee, dupes—[Interruption.] which will be elected on Tuesday 29 June. Four members shall come from the Conservative party, two members Mr Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Cardiff shall come from the Labour party, one member shall West (Kevin Brennan) is in danger of becoming over- come from the Liberal Democrat party. These excitable, and I know that he would not want to be. Let proportions—[Interruption.] Order. These proportions me respond to the point of order from the hon. Member reflect the proportions of parties in the House. It follows, for Wrexham (Ian Lucas). What he has raised is not a of course, that nominations may be received only in point of order— respect of members of those parties. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Yes it is.

Mr Speaker: Order. I require no help from the hon. Gentleman. It is not a point of order; it is a matter of taste, and we will have to leave it there.

Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. In the light of your ruling, could we rename the session that we have just had, “Prime Minister’s Tantrums”? Is it not more accurate to describe the Liberal Democrats, rather than Opposition Back Benchers, as dupes?

Mr Speaker: There is nothing disorderly about the remark that the hon. Gentleman has just made, but unfortunately his attempted point of order suffered from the disadvantage of not being a point of order. However, he has made his point very clearly, and it is on the record. I have a hunch that he knew that before he got up to speak.

Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Given your statement on the Backbench Business Committee, does that mean, therefore, that we in the smaller parties are excluded from it? In a Committee that is designed to increase accountability and democracy in the House, how can that be right?

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, and I recognise that he and other Members will be dissatisfied with the situation. However, what I want simply to say to him is twofold: first, the Committee is being constituted in accordance with party strength in the House; and, secondly, we are operating in accordance with the Standing Orders of the House by doing it that way. Not to proceed in that way would require us to revisit Standing Orders. Now, whether we should do so or not is a matter for the House to decide, but I am stating the factual position to the hon. Gentleman and for the benefit of the House.

John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I wonder whether I could have your guidance on how Back Benchers in the Opposition parties with only two Members on the Committee can get a fair hearing when there are five Members from the Government Benches.

Mr Speaker: The operation of the Committee is a matter for Members on the Committee and for its Chair. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman has every 297 Points of Order 23 JUNE 2010 298

[Mr Speaker] Ways and Means confidence in the capacity of his colleagues to discharge their responsibilities on the Committee, and I am sure Budget Resolutions and Economic that he would not have wanted to suggest otherwise. Situation

Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Further to the point of order asked by the hon. Member for Perth AMENDMENT OF THE LAW and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), Mr Speaker. Debate resumed (Order, 22 June). Referencing your previous admonition to the House Question again proposed, about what the public think outside, as opposed to That provision may be made in relation to the rates at which Members inside, is it not ridiculous, and will it not seem capital gains tax is charged. so to the public and to the people we represent in the smaller parties, that we are excluded, by whatever device, Mr Speaker: Before the shadow Chancellor rises, may from the Backbench Business Committee, and from I appeal to hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber other Committees in this House as well? Would you, Sir, to do so quickly and quietly so that we can hear him? be open to a consideration of how we may meet to I call Mr Alistair Darling. discuss how the smaller parties can be properly represented in such Committees in this House? 12.36 pm Mr Speaker: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point, Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): I and I understand his frustration, but I have already welcome the opportunity to open the second day’s ruled on this. The House can always look at these debate on the Budget. There are two tests to be applied matters. I would gently say to him that it would be to this Budget. The first is what it does to ensure that we unwise for the Chair to speculate on the ridiculous. can secure the recovery and get long-term sustainable growth, and therefore support jobs. The second is what Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) it does in respect of fairness and, in that context, what it (SNP): Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. says about the promises made by the parties that now Could you tell me, and the House, why some Back-Bench comprise the Government. Members are more equal than others in respect of I expect that over the next few days many points of membership of the Committee? detail will be explored, but I want to look at some of the bigger issues, especially the context against which this Mr Speaker: I am a little concerned that the hon. Budget needs to be judged. Before I do that, I welcome Gentleman is trying to continue the debate. I cannot the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and believe, knowing his normal regard for order, that he Skills to his place. I have not had an opportunity to would do that, but I have a worrying hunch that he cross swords with him in this Parliament, and I look might be making a first attempt. He has made his point, forward to doing that and to hearing what his views are and I think that we will leave it there. now as opposed to what they were a mere seven or eight weeks ago. I want to start with the context in which the new Government made their decisions on this week’s Budget. Yes, that context has to be the need for us to reduce our borrowing—no one disputes that, although there are very live and real arguments about how fast and the extent to which the deficit ought to be reduced. However, I believe that it must also be seen in the context of growth. For some, like the Business Secretary, what I have to say will not be news because, after all, he largely agreed with the approach that I took during a lot of the last Parliament. However, he seems to have become rather more forgetful in the past few weeks, so a reminder may be useful. On 28 April, which the right hon. Gentleman may now regard as being ancient history, but for most of us does not seem that far away, he said: “The deficit problem is easier to solve if there is growth. That is why the next government has to recognise the fragility of the economy and not take action which would precipitate a double dip recession leading to more unemployment and even bigger budget deficits.” I agree with the sentiments behind his statement. He was right on 28 April, and my guess is that he will still be right on 28 June, but I cannot understand why he has changed his mind in the intervening period. Growth is slightly stronger than before the general election, because at that time we thought that it was just 0.3% in the last quarter. However, although it has improved, it can, on 299 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 300 Situation Situation no view, be said to be anything other than pretty and the Business Secretary would have to do what he is modest and pretty fragile. I believe that the measures told. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that at the announced in the Budget yesterday present a risk of time I agreed with a lot of what the Business Secretary derailing that recovery, and worse, of giving rise to a was saying. For reasons that I will not go into just now situation in which our economy simply bumps along the because of the various legal requirements and other bottom for a number of years. In that way, we would considerations, we did not nationalise Northern Rock not get the growth that we need, and we therefore would until February 2008, but we were absolutely right to do not get the jobs. Worse still, of course, we would not so then. The Chancellor still thinks that we were wrong, have the funds to reduce our deficit and, therefore, but I am glad to say that the current Secretary of State our debt. for Justice believes that our action was right. The action The past three years have been tough for businesses we took, whether in relation to Northern Rock, the rest and families throughout our country and, indeed, many of the banking system or the rest of the economy, was are still experiencing the problems that arose because of critical. the recession. However, as I said, we have seen a return to growth, but it is only 0.3% in quarter one; unemployment Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): While we has stabilised and begun to fall; and tax receipts are are reflecting on recent history—the Chancellor yesterday higher than expected, which is why our borrowing is spoke of the levels of debt prior to the economic crisis £11 billion less than I forecast in March. All those and blamed a long history of alleged Labour overspending improvements are a direct result of the action that the —will my right hon. Friend speculate on why the previous Labour Government took. Conservatives supported the Labour Government’s Throughout this debate and for some time to come, spending plans right up to the end of 2008? doubtless we will hear the now familiar mantra that everything that is wrong and all our problems are Mr Darling: The Conservatives did so because they confined to one country alone—ours—and that they thought it expedient, but at the end of 2008, they are due solely to the actions of the previous Government. decided to change tack. In all we heard yesterday, the Like any Government, we got some things right and Chancellor did not explain why, if everything was going some things wrong, but I am absolutely certain that the wrong and we were spending too much in the previous action we took to stop this country tipping from recession few years, he was quite happy to support such spending into depression was right, as was the action we had to right up until the end of 2008. take to stabilise the banking system. I will not yield to anyone who says we should have done differently. We Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): needed to stabilise the economy and to keep people in I am listening with great interest to the right hon. their jobs and homes. We took that action because we Gentleman’s exposition of what the last Labour do not believe that in such a situation people should be Government did. However, if everything is so good, left to sink or swim. Those actions were taken largely why is our economic and financial position so much with the support of the Liberal Democrats when they worse than those of our competitors after his tenure as were in opposition, but everything has changed in the Chancellor of the Exchequer? past seven weeks. Mr Darling: It is largely because we have a very large John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) financial sector that contributed about 25% of all our (LD) rose— corporation tax receipts. When the banking crisis hit, those receipts fell. There is something in the argument Mr Darling: I will give way to someone who is perhaps that has been advanced on both sides of the House in an unreconstructed member of the Liberal Democrats, recent years—although, perhaps in retrospect, sadly especially one who represents a constituency in the not as much as it might have been over the past 30 years north of Scotland that may be the subject of change —that our economy has become dependent on the because of his leader’s determination to reduce the financial services sector, particularly on tax receipts. I number of constituencies, particularly in his neck of the think we would all like to see that rebalanced. Of woods. course, there is a big question about how we do that, and I cannot for the life of me see how cancelling the John Thurso: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman help to Sheffield Forgemasters, for example, will go for those kind words, but I suspect I would be out of anywhere towards helping that rebalancing. However, order if I responded. I shall come on to that in just a moment. May I bring the right hon. Gentleman back to the point At the moment, our recovery is fragile. What makes he was making and remind him that when the Northern matters worse is that the position in our main export Rock crisis hit, my right hon. Friend the Business market, Europe, is extremely worrying. I am far less Secretary immediately proposed that nationalisation optimistic than I was in March about what is likely to was the correct way forward, and that the Government happen in the European Union economies over the next whom the right hon. Gentleman represented prevaricated year. Growth in France has fallen back; in Germany, it for six months before taking that action? is pretty flat—just positive; other countries have tipped into recession; and Spain has unemployment over 20% Mr Darling: The hon. Gentleman raises an interesting and other well-understood problems. On top of that, point. He is right that the right hon. Gentleman called whereas the predominant view certainly until the beginning for nationalisation at an early stage. The Chancellor, of this year was that we had to support our economies however, was dead against that. I imagine that if that to ensure that we established growth, the Chancellor is situation arose now, the Chancellor’s view would prevail right that he can pray in aid the change of view among 301 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 302 Situation Situation [Mr Darling] Just about every day in the run-up to the election, the hon. Gentleman’s party was anxious—desperate even—to some of his counterparts, such as in Germany, which is compare our economy with the Greek economy. To his now pursuing policies to reduce the deficit that will credit, the Secretary of State for Transport—he is not impact on demand, not just in that country but within here today, but I made this point to him when we were other parts of Europe as well. Germany is our major debating on the television last night—said that Britain trading partner. If demand there is suppressed, and if was nothing like Greece. The idea that we are in the taking large sums of money out of our economy here same position as Greece or Spain is complete nonsense. has the effect I suspect it will have, the result will be Our economy is much larger and much stronger, and reduced demand, which will affect business confidence, our ability to service our debt is much greater. The its propensity to invest and, therefore, our ability to average maturity of our debt—as the hon. Gentleman grow and generate the receipts we need to get our knows, I assume—is 14 years, whereas in Greece the borrowing down. That is a real concern. average maturity is three years and in continental Europe There is no doubt that, over the past few months, the it is about five years. balance in the approach has moved away from what one Of course we have to get our borrowing down and might characterise as the Keynesian towards the more ensure that we can get debt down as well. No one would orthodox. I, for one, think that that is a profound disagree with that. The question for us is how do we do mistake. that in a way that maintains growth, so that we can ensure not only that we get growth in our economy and Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): Does my right that we do not damage our future prospects, but that we hon. Friend share my worry about the much-cited examples do so in a way that is socially and politically fair? That of the quite savage cuts agendas in Canada, Sweden is the difference, but to compare us with those smaller and elsewhere? They were done against the backdrop of countries is, frankly, ludicrous, as many in the hon. growing export markets, monetary policy and currency Gentleman’s party realise. devaluations. His analysis of what is happening in the eurozone at the moment should fill us with caution, if Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con): not dread, because if the Chancellor’s judgment is Did the right hon. Gentleman really believe that the wrong, this country is going to hell in a handcart. previous Government had ended boom and bust, and is that why he put no money away for the rainy day that Mr Darling: My hon. Friend’s point about Canada is has now arrived? an important one. Yes, Canada reduced its deficit quite dramatically. As a result of that country’s provincial Mr Darling: The hon. Gentleman was not here in the set-up, a lot of the action was taken by the provincial last Parliament, but I was asked that on numerous governments rather than the national Government. It occasions. No Government can ever eradicate economic was taken, however, off the back of a growing US cycles. They have been around for years, and I expect economy. Given the relative size of the Canadian economy that the current Government will find that they will be compared with the US economy—it is much smaller around for years as well. What I would say to the hon. than the Californian economy alone, for example—there Gentleman is this. Just before we went into this crisis, is no doubt that the Canadians could do things on the we had the second lowest debt level of the G7, behind back of their next-door neighbour’s rising prosperity. only Canada, and although we had a structural deficit, Our problem is that our next-door neighbours, the EU, it was much smaller—[Interruption.] Yes, we were are not in the same position at all—indeed, quite the borrowing to build schools and hospitals, but when reverse. Equally, when Sweden was going through a they were sitting here on the Opposition Benches, similar exercise, it was helped by the fact that the Conservative Members used to call for more spending economy of much of Europe was growing at the time. on schools, hospitals and the police, not less. The point is that whatever we do, when we get that Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): Does the right hon. borrowing down, we have to ensure that we do it in a Gentleman agree that he should also consider the example way that does not damage the fabric of the economy. of Spain, of which I am sure he is more than aware, Indeed, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation when talking about our EU neighbours? Despite having and Skills said that he was a lower debt-to-GDP ratio than us and a lower budget “very much opposed to the Conservative approach of rushing deficit, it is on the verge of a sovereign debt crisis. Its into cuts…regardless of the condition in the economy. That’s not banks have been frozen out of the borrowing markets sensible.” for the past three weeks, and it has reportedly held He was right then and he would have been right now, emergency meetings with the International Monetary but he is pursuing a different policy. Fund, the EU and others to try to arrange a bail-out package. Does that not make what we had to do yesterday even more critical? Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con) rose—

Mr Darling: There is another difference, of course. Mr Darling: No, I am going to make some progress. Official unemployment in Spain is more than 20%. The The current context is a fragile recovery, with growth Spanish construction industry is in dire straits. A lot of in Europe sluggish. Crucially, however, we cannot assume, Spain’s smaller banks, which are heavily tied to that as the Government seem to, that it is axiomatic that if industry, are finding things difficult. There is a world of we cut back on public expenditure, the private sector difference between the Spanish economy and our own, will come in and take its place. That is not guaranteed at just as there is a world of difference between the Greek all. We have seen that in Japan and other countries. economy and our own. Indeed, the private sector often relies on public sector 303 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 304 Situation Situation spending in many ways, whether through investment front it up. No wonder that, once they are out of this and support or directly, because it supplies goods and Chamber, Conservative Members are laughing at the services to the public sector. very idea of getting the Chief Secretary to the Treasury As I have said, borrowing is too high and we need to fronting up the cuts last week in his boss’s constituency. get it down. As I said to the hon. Member for Bexleyheath That is indeed new politics; I just wonder how long it and Crayford (Mr Evennett), our receipts from income will last. All I can say is that if things get better, there is tax and corporation tax fell, as did our stamp duty no way that the Conservatives will allow the Liberals to receipts when the housing market went down, but that front up any good news when it comes. would have happened—indeed, it did happen—to every I am concerned at this time that we run the risk of other major economy. We are not talking about something derailing the recovery, which is why I took a different that was confined to the United Kingdom. Of course, view. I thought that we should halve borrowing over as unemployment goes up, social security spending goes four years, rather than go further and faster. Looking at up as well. Indeed, it is interesting that if we look at the Office for Budget Responsibility’s forecasts published what has happened to other countries across the world, yesterday, I am concerned that it has downrated the we see that the deficit this year in this country is about growth forecast for this year, which it published a week the same as it is in the United States. If we look at debt before, from 1.3% down to 1.2%, and that it has downrated and the IMF comparisons that were published in 2009, growth in 2011 from 2.6% to 2.3%. The OBR therefore we find that our debt was less than that of Japan, Italy, recognises that growth is going to be suppressed as a Germany and France, and, looking ahead to 2015, it result of what is being done. will still be less than that of the United States, France, Italy and Japan. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): Will The idea that we are talking about a particularly the right hon. Gentleman give way? British problem simply does not stack up. It is not true, but it is used as a convenient excuse for what the Mr Darling: Yes, I suppose so. Conservative party always wanted to do. The truth is that the Conservatives supported our spending plans right up until the end of 2008—the hon. Member for Mr Ellwood: I am honoured that the right hon. North West Leicestershire (Andrew Bridgen) might want Gentleman has taken the time to give me tuppence-worth to consider this point. Indeed, when the now Prime of his attention. Will he comment on whether he supports Minister was challenged—I think by some right-wing the creation of the Office for Budget Responsibility, newspaper—as selling the pass, he said that those spending bearing in mind his own predictions? In March he plans were “tight”. That was the word he used. He said: stated in this place that the growth forecast for 2011 was 3.25%, but now the Office for Budget Responsibility “This is why we are sticking to Labour’s spending totals. Taken says that the forecast is 2.6%. alone, these are tight.” That is what he said in 2008, but now the Conservatives Mr Darling: I am glad that I gave way to the hon. turn around and say that what happened would not Gentleman, because the last time we touched on whether have happened if they had been in power for the past I supported the creation of the OBR, I think that the five years and that things would have been completely Chancellor said that I had always opposed it. However, different. I was careful before the election, and I think that I am Let us be clear: we all want to see borrowing come right in saying that I did not oppose it as a matter of down, and we need to ensure that that happens. It is principle. The present Government decided to set up also clear that we need to understand the consequences the OBR. If it works, it is worthy of support, so we will of what we are doing, so that we do not damage our support the legislation in principle, but we will look at economy or damage the social fabric of this country. the detail. One interesting question is whether the OBR However, to suggest that we should not have done should be responsible to the Treasury or to Parliament—to anything to support our economy as we went into this House in particular. recession or that we should not have stepped in to prevent the banking system from collapsing—and it Mr Ellwood: It has rubbished your forecasts. was hours from collapsing—is simply nonsense, frankly. Indeed, if we had not done what we did, the cost, in terms of increased borrowing and higher debt, would Mr Darling: Let me come to the forecasts. Forecasting, have been far higher even than it is today, so that as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, is an art rather argument simply does not stack up. than a science. Let us just see, because as I understand We need a sensible plan to get borrowing down, but if it, the OBR is being advised by exactly the same civil we get this wrong we will cause major problems, given servants who advise the Chancellor, and who advised the scale and speed of the Government’s action. Again, me a few months ago. However, I note that when the Business Secretary said a few weeks ago that Sir Alan Budd announced the OBR pre-Budget report a week last Monday, he said that one of the reasons why “it would be foolish to rush in significant cuts now which take the he had changed his estimate was recent developments, economy down even further, which lead to an even bigger deficit problem”. including what is happening in Europe. As I said earlier, I am less optimistic now than I was three months ago He was right when he said that, yet the view of the about what is likely to happen to growth. Government of whom he is now a member is rather different. To be fair to the Chancellor, he has been consistent. He has wanted to take this risk for some Mr Ellwood: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? time, and he is now taking it in great style. Even better, from his point of view, is that he has got the Liberals to Mr Darling: No, I think I have dealt with that point. 305 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 306 Situation Situation [Mr Darling] Where better to start, then, than with VAT? During the election there was a lot of discussion about that. The There will be some people who argue that the private Conservatives, like ourselves, said that they had no sector would see faster growth and job creation if there plans to raise VAT. I remember having a discussion with was a swift consolidation that supported looser monetary the Chancellor when he announced his plans not to go policy. However, with inflation down, interest rates at ahead with at least some of the national insurance 0.5% and bond yields coming down—they were coming increases, and he said that he would fund that from down before the election, as well as after it—there is no efficiency savings. I remember saying that I thought that evidence of suppressed private sector demand, so that was highly doubtful, and that they would have to argument does not stack up. I am concerned that we raise money from another big tax. Sure enough, VAT is may see a situation where there are not the right conditions going up. or the right confidence to bring forward business investment. Interestingly, for some reason, not much was said I am happy to welcome the proposed reduction in about efficiencies yesterday, although they loomed very corporation tax rates and other business help, but what large during the election. We now know that “no plans” governs whether businesses come forward with investment on the Tory side meant exactly what Geoffrey Howe is whether they are confident that the economy is going said in 1979 when he said he had “no intention” of to be growing so that people will buy their goods and doubling VAT. Of course he was factually right, as it services. That is what I am concerned about. only went up from 8% to 15%. It was the same with I am also concerned that the Office for Budget John Major when he was Prime Minister in 1992, and Responsibility forecast shows employment taking a hit said he had “no plans” to raise “extra resources from of about 100,000 compared with what we had forecast VAT”: of course, VAT went up. Even last year, the previously. The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Prime Minister said in opposition that putting up VAT Development foresees unemployment rising and sticking was regressive. He said: around 3 million for this entire Parliament. The history “You could try, as you say, put it on VAT, sales tax, but again if of Japan in the 1990s—and, indeed, our own history you look at the effect of sales tax, it’s very regressive, it hits the back in the 1930s—provides a lesson in what happens if poorest the hardest. It does, I absolutely promise you.” we get all this wrong. Wherever we sit in this House, we I assume he was not absolutely promising to do that, should all be concerned about rising and persistent but was trying to point out to the questioner that he unemployment. Not only is it an economic waste; it is thought that VAT was regressive. Yet here we have also a social catastrophe, as we have seen on many it—VAT going up to 20%, as I always suspected would occasions. happen. What I find even more curious is how on earth the Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con) rose— Business Secretary can back this proposal. He cannot have been unaware of the Liberal campaign which Mr Darling: I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman, spent two days dealing with the “Tory VAT bombshell”. not least because I had the pleasure of visiting what is We saw the posters all over the country. They said a now his constituency during the election campaign, Tory Government would come up with “a secret VAT and I can see that my contribution there did not quite bombshell”, but the only secret appears to be that the work out. Liberals intended to vote for it when it was introduced. The hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark Jacob Rees-Mogg: I thank the right hon. Gentleman (Simon Hughes), who is no longer in his place, said last for giving way—and, indeed, for visiting North East week that he thought VAT was Somerset, where he will be welcome again. He has “the most regressive form of tax” mentioned Japan, and what Japan got wrong. What it in that it “penalises the poor”. When the Business got wrong was massive overspending, as a result of Secretary said during the election that he would which it is now forecast to have a debt to GDP ratio of “hardwire fairness back into national life”, 246%. Surely that overspending is exactly what we need did he have this in mind? to avoid. I see that there are, wisely, only four Liberal Democrats Mr Darling: What Japan got wrong was snuffing out in the House at the moment; the others are no doubt a recovery at a very early stage and never really getting explaining to their constituents why it is that when they over it. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Japanese said, “Vote for us and keep the Tories out,”they completely have had complete stagnation for a long period now. misunderstood the position. It seems to me that this is The debt is just going up and up, and understandably not just a broken promise, as there are real issues at they are very concerned about it. The new Prime Minister stake. I was criticised for what I did with national was the finance Minister until a few weeks ago, and insurance, but I wanted to ensure that pensioners would understandably, he has huge problems on his hands. not have to pay the increased tax and I wanted to protect people earning less than £20,000—of course, The tests we need to apply to the Budget relate to that has not happened. growth and jobs, which I remain very concerned about; there is a substantial risk there, and I would like to have Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab): The Chancellor keeps heard more said about policies to promote growth so saying that we are all in this together, but the headlines that we do not end up with years of very sluggish in The Financial Times today suggest otherwise. Under growth at best or, even worse, bumping along the bottom the headline, “Well paid breathe collective sigh of relief”, for some years. the article quotes someone from RBC Wealth Management I have said that one of the tests that needs to be saying: applied to this Budget is its fairness and another relates “Many high earners will be breathing a sigh of relief.” to the promises made about it before the election. Does that not prove that we are not all in it together? 307 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 308 Situation Situation Mr Darling: My hon. Friend makes a fair point. It is be affected. Look at table A.5 on page 64 of the Red interesting that the Liberal Democrats promised us that Book: it is there; it is all set out. It shows that cuts in if they went into coalition they would get something in entitlement to tax credits go far further than the right return on capital gains tax. They wanted a 40% CGT, hon. Gentleman set out yesterday. yet they appear to have settled for 28%. I think that the Liberals will have some difficulty in characterising these things as “progressive cuts”. I The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): understand that the leader of the Liberal Democrats That is 10% higher than under Labour. points to the table published in the Red Book, which makes it look as if people at the top end are bearing a Mr Darling: The Chancellor says it is 10% higher, but fair share of the reductions and tax increases, but it when I raised capital gains tax to 18%, I remember the shows that only because the Government have published angry campaign waged against it by Conservative Members. a table showing measures yet to be introduced, including They said that 18% would discourage enterprise and our national insurance increases. The top decile will be was a terrible thing, but they seem to have changed their paying more because of measures that I, not the Chancellor, minds on that absolutely and completely. By the way, we introduced. It is slightly disingenuous of the Prime are not going to oppose the increase in capital gains tax; Minister to give the impression, as he did at the end of especially when there is a higher 50p rate of tax, sooner Question Time, that what the Conservatives are doing is or later action would have to be taken to stop the real redistributive and fair. That is not the case. risk of leakage. As I think the Chancellor said yesterday, the real gain from raising capital gains tax comes from Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): income tax receipts. The position of the Liberal Democrats, The shadow Chancellor has told us that he supports the however, was quite different. rise in CGT. Does he also support the rise in the personal allowance by £1,000, the re-linking of pensions There are other areas, too, where questions of fairness to earnings and the freezing of council tax? If he does, will be raised. Where in the manifestos of either of the why were they not in his last Budget? political parties that form the Government was it said that they were going to index benefits to the lower Mr Darling: Our policy, as the hon. Gentleman will inflation index of the CPI—the consumer prices index— know, was to restore the earnings link from 2012. I can which takes about £6 billion away from people whose see that bringing that forward to a year in which earnings income, generally speaking, is not that great? Where are likely to be very low had a political attraction. I was it said in their manifestos that they were going to think that was the subject of exchanges at Prime Minister’s cut more than £100 in relation to child benefit, or to Question Time, and it will not have the cash effect that freeze that benefit for three years? Other changes also is thought. As for personal allowances, I am in favour of deserve very close examination. Everybody knows that taking people out of tax if at all possible, but the same housing benefit is in need of reform, as is the disability people who are being taken out of tax will be paying living allowance, but as we all know, these are complicated, increased VAT. difficult and sometimes controversial issues. It will be interesting to see whether the coalition Government can Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Further deliver all the things they promised yesterday. to the intervention of the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), will my right hon. Friend Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: The shadow Chancellor said expose the nonsense of the supposed council tax freeze that action would have had to be taken on the CGT rate announced by the Government and the small amount sooner or later, but I cannot remember him criticising of money given to local authorities at the 2.5% level? Is his predecessor when the Labour party reduced CGT not the rug being pulled from under local government from 40% down to 18%. Is he now saying that that was through swingeing cuts to grants? How on earth are the wrong thing to do, or not? local authorities supposed to plan ahead and make their budgets? Surely they will not be able to do that Mr Darling: I am not saying that, and I am bound to until they see the spending review. say that I do not remember anybody—and certainly not the Conservative party at the time—criticising the reduction Mr Darling: I noticed that the spin on Tuesday morning of CGT down to 10%. It was believed that it would help was that council tax was to be frozen in England next and encourage entrepreneurship—[Interruption.] The year. By the time of the speech, however, the Chancellor hon. Gentleman might like to have a long look at that, was saying that if local authorities did certain things, he but I am sure that many arguments can be mounted would see what he could do to help them, which is not both ways. As he knows, I made changes in 2007; I quite the same. remember that the Conservative party’s complaint then Let me put some questions to the Secretary of State was not about the reduction of CGT, but about my for Business, Innovation and Skills. On the Chancellor’s increasing it to 18%. As I said, with income tax rates at proposed levy on the banks, will the Secretary of State 50%, it is sensible to keep an eye on this. tell us precisely what the French and German Governments I believe that people will find it difficult to characterise propose to do? I, too, had discussions with my French a number of measures announced yesterday as fair. On and German counterparts, but it was not always clear tax credits, the Chancellor said that the Government that they were proposing to do precisely what we might were going to start to taper away tax credits from have done. Things have clearly developed, and I would household incomes of over £40,000, but that is already like to know what those developments are. true now. In the following year the threshold goes down The Chancellor announced measures to help to £30,000. As we always said during the election—when development outside London and the south-east. He it was denied—people on incomes as low £15,000 will mentioned regional funds and other help, so will the 309 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 310 Situation Situation [Mr Darling] here and there, and as a result we have been left with the responsibility of spelling out what those painful Business Secretary give us further details? The Chancellor cuts are. also mentioned that he wanted to change the approach There is another comment which is not a direct quote to pensions tax relief. He made the point that the of the shadow Chancellor, and he might not even have Labour Government had had a number of discussions; said it, but let me give it to the House, as I think it legislation went through on the nod, I think, just before reflects quite well on him. He is said to have made an Dissolution. Does the Chancellor’s alternative mean insightful observation on the nature of sovereign debt reduced annual allowances? My recollection is that that crises. Apparently, he told the Cabinet, “The ice seems would affect far more people than we proposed to solid the moment before it cracks.”That captures beautifully affect, and is therefore less progressive? the dilemma that the Government now face with a People are right to be concerned about the overall sovereign debt crisis in the background. I wish to return thrust of the Budget in relation to the effect on growth to that issue, but first I will briefly answer the technical and jobs. Yes, we need to get borrowing down—we all points that he threw in at the end of his speech. know that—but we must do it in a way that is sensible As I understand it, the French-German proposal is a and will result in us coming through all the problems balance sheet levy similar to what is happening here. and being able to grow and secure jobs in the future. The proposals relating to regional rebalancing, which The Budget also fails the fairness test. Over the next are an important part of the Government’s proposals, few weeks and months, we will consider yesterday’s have two elements: £5,000 relief from employer national announcement and, equally importantly, the cuts to insurance contributions for new companies with up to departmental spending. The Business Secretary’s 10 employees outside the east, the south-east and London, Department is not protected. Perhaps he will say what and a fund that will be distributed on the basis of bids the effect of a reduction of a quarter in his budget received for good projects, especially those with a high- would be, given that he is responsible for science, universities technology and environmental component. The details and business support. on that will emerge in due course. We will return to those big questions. Like all Budgets, this one will be judged in the fullness of time. We are Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): coming through a difficult period, and the action taken Why, if the Government are so keen on rebalancing the by the Labour Government was totally justified. We economy regionally, did they turn down the loan to must be careful not to derail that effort and end up Sheffield Forgemasters? undoing all the work done over the past few years. Vince Cable: The hon. Lady knows the reason; it has been explained several times. A lot of questions had to 1.14 pm be asked about the affordability, value for money and The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and risk of that project. What was a very highly geared Skills (Vince Cable): This is the first opportunity that I project promised extraordinary rates of return to the have had to debate with the shadow Chancellor from private promoter. We looked carefully at all the evidence, this side of the Dispatch Box. May I start by paying and the project clearly had positive aspects, but we tribute to him? I have always said publicly, and am decided that in the circumstances of a Government happy to continue to do so, that in many respects he was with highly constrained public finances, we could not one of the people who emerged from the wreckage of support it. the previous Government with an enhanced reputation. He did so for two reasons. First, he inherited an enormous Angela Smith: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? banking crisis that was in part the result of the naivety and negligence of the treatment of banking before he Vince Cable: I have answered the question; I do not became Chancellor. He dealt with it decisively in the want to pursue it. autumn of 2008, through liquidity and part nationalisation, Were the private promoters able to take the project and I reassert that he deserves credit for that. Secondly, forward, we would be delighted, because as a commercial he has at his core a strong element of honesty and project it has many attractions. However, the Government integrity, which occasionally involves him blurting out could not commit large amounts of money to such a the truth. There was the famous occasion when he came project. back from a holiday in the Hebrides and uttered the The shadow Chancellor made a series of challenges, blasphemous four-letter word “cuts” for the first time, which I will take systematically. He asked why we, and I much to the annoyance of his next-door neighbour in personally, have endorsed austerity policies and especially Downing street. quick cuts; he asked about the issues around fairness The question to which the Government have wanted and value added tax, with which I will deal; and he an answer is this: why were we left £50 billion of cut asked about the important economic question of how commitments without any explanation of what they we get growth emerging from a period of austerity, and were going to be? On 12 June, the shadow Chancellor I will try to answer that. First, however, let me explain gave us an insight into what had been going on. He said: why I changed my mind—for I did change my mind—about “I wanted to show more examples of what we could cut, and the necessity for early action on the budget deficit. Let more examples of what we could switch. But there was a more me describe the sequence of events, because I think that limited appetite for that than you might think.” it is quite important. It was not just the appetite of his then next-door As the shadow Chancellor knows, because he was neighbour, who is now being blamed for everything, still Chancellor then, when the election took place there that was limited. I think that there was a limited appetite was, in the background, a major sovereign debt crisis in 311 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 312 Situation Situation Europe. The day after the election, when there was a eurogroup took far too long to do what was necessary hung Parliament, the then Prime Minister suggested to to support the Greek Government. Had they done it in me, I think for reasons for courtesy, that I talk to some February, when the problems first became apparent, senior officials in the Government and the governor of some, although not all, of those problems might have the central bank about the existing situation, in order to been avoided. As it was, they were allowed to become obtain their assessments of what was going on. I did so. acute. No one is arguing that we did not need to reduce The leader of my party talked to the governor, and I our borrowing, but we were not in the same position as have talked to him since. Greece. The advice that I received, uncompromising and unequivocal, was that the incoming Government, whoever Vince Cable: I know that we were not in the same they were—we did not know who they would be at the position as Greece. I was not talking about what the time—would have to act immediately and decisively on Greeks and the eurozone needed to do; I was talking the budget deficit, because there was a serious threat to about what we needed to do, and the advice that we this country. I took that advice, but was left with a received. nagging question. The former Chancellor was presumably There is an evidence base to look at. It is true that, as receiving the same advice. What would he have done? the shadow Chancellor said in his speech, the cost of Was he proposing to disregard it? The line of policy borrowing in terms of bond yields was starting to fall that he is developing now suggests that he would have under the last Government. That is because markets are liked to disregard it, but was he going to do so, or was driven by expectations, and they expected a change of he going to be responsible, accept the advice and act on Government. Since the election, however, and since this it? Because he is a responsible and serious man, I think action was taken and announced, the cost to the United he would have accepted it. Kingdom of borrowing, in terms of bond yields, We now know, because the figures are becoming has fallen by 20 basis points. In Greece it has risen by clear, that in the current financial year, when, as the 170 basis points, or 2% in ordinary language. It has shadow Chancellor said, the economy was fragile, he risen by 94 points in Ireland, by 95 in Portugal, and by was introducing a fiscal tightening of £23 billion. The 65 in Spain. Spain is a serious, big country: we are not new Government have introduced a tightening of £6 billion. talking about tiny, peripheral economies. It is a serious The last Government did not announce that fiscal country, which was caught up in the financial firestorm tightening—it emerged in the small print from the Institute that we have had to head off from here. That was the for Fiscal Studies—but the shadow Chancellor did it, basis on which we made decisions. and he clearly did it with good reason. The problem was Let me now develop that immediate question into the that it was never clear what the Government were broader issue of the Chancellor’s Budget and the magnitude doing, it was done in a very chaotic way, and some of the task that we had to undertake. There is, of Ministers—including Lord Mandelson, my predecessor— course, a difference between the problem of the deficit plainly wanted to support the Chancellor and to act in and the problem of the debt. There is a public debt the public interest, and got on with those cuts. When I problem, which is growing rapidly, but as the Chancellor entered the Department, people such as further education has pointed out and as I have often pointed out myself, lecturers and scientists were being made redundant as a it is not greatly out of line with what is happening in result of the measures that had already been initiated by many other countries, or with what has happened the Government in response to the crisis that they knew historically. The real problem for the United Kingdom existed. is the massive level of public borrowing. That is why markets are important. The deficit in the last financial Chris Leslie: The right hon. Gentleman may well year was 11% of GDP; in the current financial year, it is have had his damascene conversion, for who knows 10.5% of GDP. That money—£155 billion—must be what reasons, but does he not owe an apology to the borrowed. My views on that, on how it should be dealt millions of people who thought when they voted Liberal with, and on the kind of radicalism that is needed had Democrat that they were voting for a pro-growth strategy nothing to do with the formation of the coalition. My and against these massive cuts? Should he not apologise views were set out a year ago, when I wrote a pamphlet to his own electors? which did, indeed, bear a strong resemblance to what the Chancellor produced yesterday in terms of scale, Vince Cable: No; we are trying to deal with the scope and speed. problem that the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues left behind. Let me tell the shadow Chancellor why I feel strongly about the need to act in such a decisive way in terms of fiscal policy. There are two reasons. First, I saw the Mr Darling: Since the right hon. Gentleman referred disaster unfolding under the last Government, when directly to me and to advice and discussions that I may they were overtaken by a major financial crisis for have had, let me say to him that there has never been which they were not prepared and to which they had any argument in the House about the fact that we massively contributed. Of course there is a global needed to reduce borrowing. The discussion was always problem—we know that—but its impact has been much about when the reduction should start—before the election, more serious in this country than elsewhere. That is he and I were on the same side on that—and about the because the Government allowed household debt, in extent to which, and the speed at which, it should take relation to income, to rise to the highest level in the place. developed world; because they acted and planned on As for Greece and the sovereign debt crisis, I am sure the assumption that house prices rise for ever, although that the right hon. Gentleman will also have been we know from the evidence that they go up and down advised that the real problem was that the rest of the roughly every 17 or 18 years, as they have done for the 313 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 314 Situation Situation [Vince Cable] such as Denis Healey, Roy Jenkins and my boss, John Smith, believed that the Government had to be responsible, last 300 years; and because they created, encouraged but there were a lot of others—I sense a growing echo and fostered an almost Icelandic dependence on major of this feeling on the Opposition Back Benches today—who international banks, the combined magnitude of whose said, “We don’t need to do anything, we can fight the balance sheets represented 400% of our economy. gnomes of Zurich and drive them underground, we can The Government allowed that to happen. Some of us ignore the rest of the world and we do not need to act.” warned about the dangers, and they took no notice: It was a disastrous alternative strategy, and the Labour they said that we were scaremongering. But the crisis hit party is in great danger of returning to that territory. them, and, having experienced it once, we on this side of That is why I have come to the same position as the the House are determined that such a financial crisis Chancellor of the Exchequer. We come from different should not happen again as a result of sovereign risk. political traditions; I do not try to hide that. As it That is why we are decisive, and why we feel that we happens, my role models as Chancellor of the Exchequer need to act. include Sir Stafford Cripps and Roy Jenkins, because they understood the need for sound public finance and Chris Leslie: If what the right hon. Gentleman says they combined tough action on budgets with fairness. about the banks is true, why has the Budget been quite That is the tradition that we have continued. so lenient with them? Why has it taken only £1 billion Let me list some of the measures in this Budget with from them, when the rest of the country is having to pay which I am proud to be associated. There is the lifting £14 billion as a result of the measures in the Red Book? of the tax threshold by £1,000, towards the £10,000 What will his Department do to prevent the banks from mark. There is the action on capital gains tax, which is passing even that £1 billion on to their customers? not just a tax-avoidance measure, but is about fairness. We have acted on public sector pay not just by freezing Vince Cable: That was a very strange intervention. It some salaries but by giving special help to people on may reflect the fact that the hon. Gentleman—whom I low pay in the public sector. We have introduced the respect a great deal—has rejoined the House following bank levy. We have done what the Labour Government the election, and may not be familiar with the arguments failed to do in 12 years and introduced a triple-lock to that led up to it. He will know, however, that the last protect pensioners—the shadow Deputy Leader of the Government were going to phase out their bonus tax. House, the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South We have reintroduced a stable system of taxation on (Barbara Keeley), could not quite get her head around banks, the incidence of which will increase over time. Of what the triple-lock is—and in addition supported course, many things need to happen to the banking pensioners through improved pension credit, which is a system. We will discuss, as colleagues, how we should major cost on the budget going forward. We took deal with such matters as bank lending, on which there action to head off any increase in child benefit, too. is an outrageous record of bank dysfunctionality. Let me read a comment on child poverty made not by a politician, but by Barnardo’s, one of the leading Phil Wilson rose— charities. Yesterday it said: “There’s some pain in this Budget for the poorest families, but Vince Cable: I will take another intervention, but we recognise the government has done what it can to protect the then I must move on. most vulnerable. Our calls for child tax credits to be redirected away from more Phil Wilson: It seems to me that, to rectify the problems, wealthy families to the poorest have been heard—an action we the right hon. Gentleman has signed up his party to a highly commend.” Budget that represents a massive gamble for the country. Huw Irranca-Davies: I do not doubt the right hon. What happens if it fails? What is plan B? Gentleman’s motives during his journey over the years and the past few weeks, but does he give credence to the Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman says that a gamble fact that there is an alternative that could minimise the is being made. Certainly there is a risk. There are risks risk to his communities and mine? It is not to do with in tightening fiscal policy too quickly, but there are also rejecting an agenda of cuts, efficiencies or reprioritisation; risks in doing nothing, or in doing less. We have had to it is to do with timing. It is not just me saying that, or balance those risks, and we have concluded that we the “dupes” on the Labour Benches. Paul Krugman, must act. “Danny” Blanchflower, Will Hutton and many other Since the questions are coming from Labour Members, economists are saying, “Minimise the risk; just delay, let me now give the other reason why I feel strongly and make the decisions at the right time.” about the need to act decisively in the way in which the Chancellor acted yesterday. Thirty years ago, as an Vince Cable: I think that the gentlemen to whom the adviser, I occupied the office that I now occupy as a hon. Gentleman refers are mostly talking about competitive Minister. It was the end of a Labour Government who deflation in the world economy, which is, of course, had chosen to ignore the build-up to a major financial absolutely disastrous. The Chancellor referred in his crisis. As some people will remember, the painful speech yesterday to the fact that other countries that are measures—the taxes, welfare cuts and spending cuts—were in surplus have to do the opposite of what we are doing not taken by choice. They were imposed from outside in terms of fiscal consolidation. The Chancellor made by the International Monetary Fund. Because I was that very clear in relation to action to be taken by the there at the tail-end of that Government, I saw the Chinese and action that should be taken by countries consequences, not the least of which were the massive such as Germany. Of course we understand the wider divisions that opened up. People in the Government context. 315 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 316 Situation Situation Let me return to the criticisms about value added tax. up 70%. Taking into account rebates, for the poorest The shadow Chancellor put the question in a personal 10% of the population it rose by 93%. It is the most way when he asked why I was supporting the increase in regressive tax of all, yet they lecture us in this sanctimonious value added tax. The three of us—the shadow Chancellor, way about regressive taxation. They have no basis for the Chancellor and myself—went around the television doing that. studios during the election campaign; we were the three Finally, let me turn to the crucial issue of growth, Chancellors, a bit like “The Three Tenors”. We had our which the shadow Chancellor raised. He is right that several encounters and each of us was asked time and growth does not happen automatically; of course it again, “What do you think about value added tax?” As does not. How do we proceed from the austerity that I recall, all three of us gave an identical answer: “We has to happen—from cuts in public spending—to growth have no plans to increase value added tax, but we have in business investment and net exports, which we want not ruled it out.” The reason why we are now having to to see? That is a genuinely important question, to which confront the matter is that there is a bigger structural there are no simple answers. The perfectly fair point has deficit than was appreciated and action had to be taken. been made that there are risks involved here, just as That could have been a tax measure, or it could have there are risks, which we judge to be bigger, in doing been a spending cut. Is that what Labour Members are nothing, so let me try to answer this question seriously. saying? Do they want more cuts in spending? Do they If we are going to get growth, it will come partly want another tax? What do they want? through demand and partly through supply. How do we sustain demand? Essentially, we do so through monetary Mr Darling: I was just wondering what impression policy. That is what happened under the last Government. the Liberal Democrat poster about the Tory VAT bombshell The reason why the economy kept on going through the was meant to give. recession was not Government fiscal stimulus. That was trivial, and it has now been withdrawn anyway. It was Vince Cable: Anybody who read my comments on not for that reason; it was because we had very low tax policy over the past year would, I think, hardly interest rates, the expansion of money through quantitative imagine that there was a surprise or a bombshell, because easing and, of course, a big devaluation. I said on many occasions that if taxes had to be increased, Those factors drove the economy in terms of demand it made much more sense to tax expenditure than and they will continue to do so. There is a reason for income or corporate income or employment. That was believing that that is what will happen: the Governor of my view, and I expressed it on many occasions. the Bank of England called for this Budget and has now got it, and he has every reason to understand the need Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I wish to associate for monetary policy to support recovery. myself with many of the measures that we as Liberal Democrats can take pleasure from in the Budget, including Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): Will the right the increases in personal allowance and in pensions. On hon. Gentleman give way? VAT, to what extent does my right hon. Friend accept that we could have explored alternatives, including increasing Vince Cable: Is it on that point? capital gains tax still further or increasing the bank levy to ensure that the balance of tax increases was more Liz Kendall: Yes. proportionate? Vince Cable: Okay. Vince Cable: The Government did look at the possibility of raising capital gains tax further. They did serious Liz Kendall: The right hon. Gentleman says that the analysis and the conclusion was that it would not raise Budget will increase growth, but the Office for Budget any more revenue. That was the problem. It certainly Responsibility says in the Red Book, at paragraph C.18, would not have raised anything remotely like £10 billion. that That is why we cannot evade this issue. “economic activity is weaker than in the pre-Budget forecast…this Let me turn to the central concern about value added reflects Budget measures which restrain government spending tax, which is expressed on both sides of the House: the and real household disposable income, holding back consumer worry about regressiveness. I checked back on what demand.” independent analysts were saying about value added tax Does he agree with the OBR or does he now admit that and its income distribution effects. It is worth looking at the Budget will not increase growth? the work of the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which has conducted a distributional analysis based on expenditure. Vince Cable: That was not on the point I was speaking It came to the conclusion—this is its word, not mine—that about. I know that the hon. Lady is a new Member, but value added tax was fairly “progressive” because of the I am sorry that she felt the need to read out her question exemptions that are given for zero rating, as food, in the way that she did. Nevertheless, there is a very children’s clothing and other essentials are key items in simple answer on page 94 of the Red Book. It is a the expenditure patterns of poorer people. [Interruption.] technical point made by Sir Colin Budd, who drew up The top 10% of the population pay three times as much this part. These issues are not comparable. Had the in value added tax as the bottom 10%. [Interruption.] Labour plans been implemented, interest rates would Opposition Members are expressing righteous have been higher than they now are, which would have indignation about what they regard as regressive measures. dragged down the rate of growth and pushed up the Let me tell them which is the most regressive tax: it is level of unemployment beyond what it is. That is the council tax. Do they remember what happened to council distinction he makes. He also refers to the fact that tax under the Labour Government? On average, it went there is a basic confusion. I noticed that the Chancellor 317 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 318 Situation Situation [Vince Cable] The shadow Chancellor talked at some length about the need for growth. He is right that we need growth, did not repeat the point in his speech, but it was raised but it has to be sustainable. We had a decade of what yesterday. That explains the hon. Lady’s genuine seemed at the time, at least to some Labour Members, misunderstanding. to be strong economic growth. I am sure that hon. In addition to issues about how to stimulate demand, Members will remember, as I do, all those Budgets in there is an issue about how to get business investment which the then Chancellor told us that we had achieved moving—how to get supply, and an understanding of the highest rate of growth since the Hanoverians—I the supply side of the economy. A lot of the Budget’s think it was even the Roman empire on one occasion—and stronger points were about that issue. The Budget was talked about a boom in employment. But the house was about creating a tax environment within which business built on sand and it was all a mirage. It was not is confident to invest. It is about doing the things that sustainable. It was based on levels of personal debt and my Department is now starting to do in conjunction Government borrowing that could not be sustained; it with the Cabinet Office, such as looking at the 20,000-plus was also based on a housing market that could not be additional regulations that were built in by the last sustained and on a fragile banking system. We have to Government and which are shackling small business. It restore growth, but it has to be sustainable. That is what is about addressing the issue of bank credit that was the Budget was about. lamentably neglected by our predecessors, and investing in things like apprenticeships, which we have started to 1.45 pm do even within our few weeks in office. Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab): May I congratulate Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: On investment, will my right you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on occupying the seat that hon. Friend say a little more about the Chancellor’s you now do, as this is the first time I have had the words yesterday on enlarging the enterprise finance opportunity to do so? guarantee scheme, which would help 2,000 small businesses? The Business Secretary speaks with great authority Some 90% of our economy is made up of small and and I noticed that the House listened to him with great medium-sized businesses. I have had two meetings with care. I was particularly interested in the justification he business representatives since the election, and they all gave for the reversal of his position on cuts. I listened to tell me that one of the major problems is bank lending the two points he made on that with great care, but I to good, viable businesses—particularly those that are was not convinced. First, he said that after the election, exporting around the world. I am sure that those are he was asked to get a briefing from senior officials. He precisely the sort of businesses that my right hon. then went on, in a way that I thought was not totally Friend had in mind as those which will give us the honest and that was certainly a form of elision, to talk private sector growth that we require. about the situations facing this country and countries in the euro. Vince Cable: The hon. Gentleman is right, and it is The then Opposition parties were offered briefings the problem of credit supply to the small and medium-sized before the election. I assume the Lib Dems were briefed business sector that has the greatest potential to disrupt on the situation facing this country regarding the sovereign the recovery. That is why the Chancellor included in debt and other such matters, so it can hardly have been yesterday’s Budget the finance guarantee, and why we a surprise to the right hon. Gentleman to find that the now have to work on why banks that were rescued by circumstances were as they were. I find rather surprising the taxpayers do not lend to the good companies that the suggestion that he was surprised to discover—after the hon. Gentleman describes, which are solvent, have the election, during the period when he was negotiating good order books and will contribute to recovery. That entrance into office for himself and his colleagues—that is a major task that the Government now have to the situation was suddenly much worse than he had undertake. previously understood it to be. Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): There was a deliberate elision of the sovereign debt The right hon. Gentleman talks about the importance crisis being faced by Greece and Spain and the situation of investment and about being fair to regions. The in the United Kingdom. The truth is that in Greece Northwest Regional Development Agency has played a there is a 4% decline in gross domestic product—there is critical role in setting up investment funds for businesses a collapse in output—and that in Spain more than 20% in the north-west and was key in setting up the centre of people are effectively unemployed. Those two economies of scientific excellence at Daresbury, which has been probably cannot sustain the debt they have incurred, responsible for retaining skills in the north-west and for but that does not in any way apply to the UK. I would developing science-based businesses. Why does he want be surprised if the Governor of the Bank of England to abolish it? had told the right hon. Gentleman, in what would have been a blinding revelation in the middle of the negotiations Vince Cable: I have met the Northwest Regional to enter into the coalition, that some kind of sovereign Development Agency and I have suggested to it that debt crisis was operating in the United Kingdom, given under the new structures that will be created—the local that the Bank of England’s quarterly bulletin, published enterprise partnerships, and local businesses working the other day, refers to an increase in the flow of with their local councils—it will have an opportunity to investments into UK bonds. bid for status in order to carry forward useful projects The structure and age of our debt is not in any way that support development on the ground. There will be comparable to the situation in Greece or elsewhere. I a change—those RDAs are going to be restructured—but therefore conclude that the meeting which the right there is a role for that kind of innovation locally. hon. Gentleman no doubt had with the Governor and 319 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 320 Situation Situation others came at a very convenient time, and that the every £7 that poor people spend goes on VAT, while for abandonment of the policy that he and others had, to the rich the figure is about £1 in every £25. It is a highly their credit, shared—that we should not cut further at regressive tax, compared with income tax. If a tax is to this time—was linked more to the political opportunities be increased—and I am not saying that that would be that were opening up, given the nature of the election, my option—it should not be VAT. The fact that VAT than to the sudden discovery of a change to the situation has been raised reveals the Budget’s regressive nature facing this country that, rather conveniently, occurred and character, and reflects the right-wing agenda being 24 hours after the election. elaborated by this Government. I want to make a number of points about the Budget and the current situation that we are facing. I listened John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): My hon. Friend has carefully to the analysis by the Business Secretary of referred to the welfare cuts, including to disability living how the crisis came about. From the implications that allowance, that have been outlined although not specified could be read into his speech, it seemed to me that there at all. People on DLA—in his area, in mine, and elsewhere was a difference of view between him and Conservative in the country—come predominantly from a manual members of the Government as to how the situation working background. Does he share my concern that it arose. is precisely their inability to do manual work that will be For the Conservatives, it is clear that the problem a problem when their allowance is cut? The people facing the country is almost ideological in nature, being involved are not the intellectual office workers of the one of government rather than of the markets. They future. believe that the problem lies with the state, which should be reduced, and not with the markets, which collapsed. Jon Trickett: I wonder whether the Business Secretary I note that the right hon. Gentleman said that the crisis and some of his colleagues came into politics to restrict was global in character and that it was brought about welfare benefits for the disabled. by the collapse of the banks, and I want to refer once People in our areas have reason to fear other elements more to the question of bonds. of the Budget, apart from the VAT hike. Public sector The credit rating agencies have been widely publicised pensions are going to be cut, and the Government will for their judgments about the state of the UK economy, accelerate the rise in the pension age. We know that they but those same agencies were happy to give triple A are going to cut 25% of departmental expenditure, that ratings to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and to some of there is to be a freeze on child benefit, and that there the other banks and investment firms in the US. It is will effectively be cuts in housing benefit. All those odd that much of the media now seem to rely on the proposals will affect the communities we represent. judgments of those agencies as to the UK’s status in the I remind the House that it was Mrs Thatcher who bond markets—but speculating on that would take me stole milk from schoolchildren; now, it is this Government away from the narrative thrust I am trying to develop who will take money from poorer mothers. Let me list and the points I want to make. the effects the Budget will have on mothers, especially The Business Secretary referred to the collapse of the those in poorer communities, as it seems they are to be banks, but I think the judgments made in the Budget targeted. reflect a different analysis by the Chancellor. That much is clear from how the burden will fall: of the £40 billion According to the TUC, the announcements made fiscal tightening being proposed, it looks as though yesterday show that poorer mothers will lose about £13 billion will be achieved by raising VAT—and I shall £1,200 a year. From April next year, the Sure Start return to that point in a second—and £11 billion by an maternity grant will be available for the first child only. attack on welfare. In contrast, £2 billion is being raised The £500 maternity grant available for poorer mothers by the banking levy, and I believe that that reveals the having their second child is to be withdrawn, and that is priorities of this Conservative-led coalition: £24 billion a disgrace. The health in pregnancy grant—a universal is to be saved through reducing welfare expenditure grant worth £190 that was available to all mothers to and raising VAT, and only £2 billion will come from promote child and maternal health and engagement the banks. with health services—is being abolished. The truth is that, in a constituency like mine, the The baby element of tax credits is also being cut. Budget will hit people very hard. I represent some of That was an additional payment of up to £545 a year the poorest people in the country, as do many other for families with a child aged less than one who were hon. Members. It will not have escaped them that the in receipt of tax credits. The previous Government’s burden of the changes introduced yesterday will fall introduction of a new toddler tax credit would have particularly heavily on the poorest, and on hard-working provided an extra £200 a year for children aged one or people more generally. two, but that has been cut too. The right hon. Gentleman made a case for the rise in As we know, child benefit has been frozen for three VAT, but the Chancellor said on television this morning years, and that obviously amounts to a cut in real terms. that he had faced a choice, between raising income tax Finally, the child trust fund worth £250 has also gone. or VAT, and that he had made a judgment. Personally, That may not affect members of the Cabinet much, I reject the idea that we should impose further fiscal given that there are 22 millionaires sitting around that tightening in the current financial year but, be that as it table, but I assure the House that £250 can make a may, the Chancellor made it clear that there was a difference to children and families in my area. choice. Whatever my differences with them, I do not believe The Government’s choice—the Business Secretary’s that people who joined the Liberal Democrat party fingerprints are on it as much as anyone else’s—was to went into politics to attack poorer mothers, but that is raise VAT rather than income tax. However, about £1 of what this Budget does. That is what they will be faced 321 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 322 Situation Situation [Jon Trickett] shows a decline in public sector investment from £47 billion in 2008-09 to £21 billion, which is less than with voting for in a few days, and I ask them to consult half that amount, by 2014. their consciences—never mind their party members—to I am troubled both by the assault on poorer communities, determine whether that is the right thing to do. which is what the Budget really amounts to, and by the Earlier, I said that it would not be my priority at this underlying economic philosophy that by reducing the time to go for further fiscal tightening, given the fragility state the private sector will flourish. The reverse is true, of the economy and the lack of demand elsewhere in as we know from the great economist Keynes and from the world. However, that is not simply my view; it has what happened in the great depression of the 1930s. also been expressed by people who are very significant Recovery in the United States was not brought about by indeed. slashing public expenditure, but above all by the new deal. Roosevelt’s great adventure rebuilt the American The House will be aware of President Obama’s letter infrastructure and economy. The private sector was able to the G20, but hon. Members may not know that to revive through expenditure, not cuts. KPMG chief economist Andrew Smith has described With those reflections, I turn to the politics of the yesterday’s Budget as a “kill or cure” Budget. I note that Budget. The election gave no legitimacy for the course the same phrase was used in today’s Financial Times the Government have set. The vast majority of people headline, and there is at least a risk that we might kill who voted for the Liberal Democrat party did so on the the recovery. It is quite extraordinary to see KPMG basis that there would be no further cuts in this financial make such a statement, and Andrew Smith, its chief year, and no increase in VAT. The Conservative party economist, went on to say: did not achieve a majority and did not significantly “The aim is to eliminate the structural deficit over this Parliament, increase its vote, in terms of the total numbers of but it risks choking off the recovery. There is no guarantee that people who voted. On the other hand, it is also clear—I private demand will rebound just because the government retrenches.” would not claim otherwise—that Labour did not win John Philpott, of the Chartered Institute of Personnel the election either, but looking at the combined votes and Development, said that we would see unemployment for Labour and the Liberal Democrats, for a policy of rise to 3 million for the rest of this Parliament. careful financial management, we see that a vast majority voted for that objective. Dr John Pugh (Southport) (LD): Can the hon. My conclusion is that there is no democratic legitimacy Gentleman refresh my memory? In the last Parliament, for the Budget. When the Secretary of State for Business, did he vote for £40 billion of unspecified cuts? Innovation and Skills described his conversion on the road to Damascus on the day after the election, his argument was much less than convincing. It feels as Jon Trickett: I am talking about yesterday’s Budget though there has been an attack on middle-class and and I shall continue to do so. If the hon. Gentleman working-class families and on those dependent on welfare. does not like it, he should think about whether he will Inevitably, there will be resistance both in the House vote for it next Monday and Tuesday. and outside. When people reflect on the fact that an Paul Krugman, the Nobel prize-winning economist, extreme Thatcherite Budget has been agreed and will be asked how hard it could be to understand that Governments forced through the House without the legitimacy of an can save economies rather than destroy them. It is not elected parliamentary majority, there will be outrage. too hard at all, yet as he said: It is for the Labour party, particularly our leadership, “All around the world…politicians seem determined…to short- to reflect carefully on how we respond to a Budget from change the economy”. a Government who were not elected with a majority, A consensus has emerged in the media about the need and who propose to impose savage cuts on the living for cuts, which is infuriating sometimes, because there is standards of poorer people. Resistance will emerge. The a counter-consensus that has not been properly heard, Labour party will want to react responsibly, but we represented by many people on the Opposition Benches will—at least we should—place ourselves alongside people and by leading economists, President Obama and others: and communities who are resisting the cuts. I very much we are taking a huge risk with the future of our economy. hope we shall be doing that in the coming weeks and months. Two million private sector employees work for companies that are dependent on Government contracts—Sheffield Several hon. Members rose— Forgemasters has already been mentioned. Further damage Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I know will inevitably be done to the private sector by cuts that the House will wish to observe the conventions aimed at the public sector. When we look at the performance associated with maiden speeches. of the private sector we see that it, rather than the public sector, has brought about the reduction in gross 2.7 pm domestic product, especially in investment. People may not like to use the word, but if there is a strike going on Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): at the moment, it is not the BA strike but the investment Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to strike in the private sector. We can understand why it speak today. It is a great honour to address the House happened, but none the less, £6 of every £10 of the for the first time and it is with some trepidation that I reduction in GDP is down to one factor alone—the follow the excellent maiden speeches of so many Members. decline in private sector investment. It is not clear to me I pay tribute to my predecessor, Phil Willis, who how cuts now will suddenly lead to growth in private served with great distinction for 13 years and built up a sector investment, nor have the Government explained significant, thoroughly deserved personal reputation as how that might happen. Furthermore, the Red Book a fine, hard-working constituency MP. I wished Phil a 323 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 324 Situation Situation long and happy retirement, which may have been a little started to receive calls from people who work on the too early, because as soon as I had done so he was made front line of those services to highlight the bureaucracy Lord Willis. that they have to endure and, interestingly, what they I am only the fifth person to represent the constituency see as the waste of public money. Contributions from since it was created. One illustrious predecessor is the those who deliver services on the front line will be hon. James Ramsden, who became the MP nearly 60 years absolutely crucial in ensuring that we make the right ago and was our country’s last Secretary of State for decisions in the changes ahead. War. James once confided to me that there were not One of the reasons for the high quality of life in many of “us Macmillan’s Ministers” left now. I have Harrogate and Knaresborough is the quantity and range not checked, but I think James is a member of a very of community groups and social enterprises. I have small club. been particularly impressed on my visits to social enterprises Further back we had some rotten boroughs—the such as Paperworks, Claro Enterprises, Horticap and need to equalise constituency size goes back a long the Little Red Bus. Numerous voluntary groups do so way—and over time they were represented by three much to add to the quality of life in our area, and there Prime Ministers. However, the most famous political are 400 charities registered. I have seen the difference figure, if I may call him that, with links to my constituency that volunteering and social enterprises make, and I is someone who played a big role in the history of this welcome the Government’s support for the third sector. place: Guy Fawkes, who spent his childhood in the village of Scotton. Harrogate is also the home of Army foundation college, where our junior soldiers train before being sent When I first arrived here, Members were introducing to their regiments. It is a fine organisation. It does great themselves to each other and asking where they came work with the 16 and 17-year-olds who join it from a from. As soon as I said that I came from the Harrogate very diverse set of backgrounds, yet all leave with pride and Knaresborough constituency everyone said, “Ah, and confidence in having made great achievements. I lovely part of the world.” They were right. The Harrogate am always conscious that, whenever we hear of a casualty and Knaresborough constituency is Yorkshire at its in Afghanistan, there is a high likelihood that that very best. I am proud to represent such a beautiful area, person spent some time training in my constituency. with its mix of historic towns and villages and rolling The junior soldiers whom I have met at the foundation countryside. college are a credit to our forces, and I strongly welcome Knaresborough is by far the older of the two principal the Government’s support for our forces. towns, and is a very pretty market town with a marvellous natural setting. It has a river and a gorge, a castle and a One thing that I often hear about my constituency is crag, and a fascinating history. Earlier this year, there that it is very affluent—parts of it are, that is true—but were great celebrations on the 800th anniversary of the there are pockets of poverty, which are sometimes first award of Maundy money, which took place in the overlooked: perhaps pensioners living on fixed incomes, town. I am always struck by the real community spirit or people who live in rural areas or who work in the in the town, perhaps best exemplified by the annual hospitality industry, where incomes are often very low. Knaresborough bed race, which is organised by the It may surprise hon. Members to know that the average Knaresborough Lions and took place only a few wage from jobs in the area is £440 per week. That is less days ago. than both the regional and UK average. Harrogate is a spa town, perhaps most famous for its I mentioned earlier that Harrogate and Knaresborough gardens and tea rooms. A regular winner of the Britain is the best of Yorkshire. In my constituency, we have in Bloom competition, it is true that the gardens are one of the most desirable areas to live, a successful and beautiful, and Betty’s tea rooms are justifiably famous diverse economy and an engaged community, yet one of for their quality. They are a Yorkshire institution. I the lessons of the recent election was that people fear should perhaps confess that I have a lot of knowledge that what they have may be under threat. I heard of that company, having worked for it, so there is a comment after comment from people fearful of the direct interest. But there is more to Harrogate than that. scale of debts facing our country, knowing that the The quality of life there is very high, based on a robust action to deal with them would not be easy. People have local economy, which has a mixture of quality companies understood that the need to tackle the issue was urgent, that operate in a diverse mix of sectors, including one of but that there would be better times ahead when the the UK’s largest conference centres. consequences of the previous Government’s debts are Many hon. Members will have visited conferences at dealt with. Harrogate and so will have experienced the transport There is a lesson from Harrogate on the benefits of links, which are poor, especially the rail links. Only 18% clearing debts. The local council has been active in of the 350,000 visitors per year to the conference centre repaying its debts, keen to clear liabilities and save travel by rail. More direct trains between London and taxpayers paying for interest. Paying interest does not Harrogate would be far more convenient for visitors to appeal to Yorkshiremen and women—we are famous the conference centre, thus boosting business and having for liking value. Paying interest is using funds that could a beneficial effect on the broader business community. be put to better purpose. In this case, I believe that the I will be working to highlight that and to fight for money that is being saved will be used to expand the improvements, although I am under no illusion how local recycling service. The contrast is stark: paying difficult that will be, given the appalling state of the interest, or investing in environmental initiatives. In less public finances inherited from the previous Government. than three years, the council will be debt free—the Our public services are good, with motivated public consequences of a good Conservative administration. It servants delivering quality health care, education and will take us far longer than that to clear the debts that other services, yet over the past couple of years, I have we have inherited. 325 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 326 Situation Situation [Andrew Jones] away when I recalled that my Liberal Democrat opponent in the general election made it clear on every hustings It is crucial for us all to get our economy moving, and where I appeared with him that increasing VAT was not I support very strongly the Government’s efforts to something that the Liberal Democrats would support. create the right environment for businesses to thrive. He constantly attacked the Conservatives for the fact The cuts announced yesterday in corporation tax rates, that, whenever they have been in government, they have with the expansion of entrepreneurs’ relief and the always put up VAT. small business relief, mark a clear change of direction The main reason that I wish to speak in this debate is on business taxation, and that will be very welcome in the growing anger—not only in my constituency of Harrogate and Knaresborough. Kingston upon Hull North, but in vast swathes of the My right hon. Friend the Chancellor said that it was north of England—at the coalition’s policies so far important to say that Britain is open for business. Well, announced and those in the Budget statement yesterday. I will be highlighting the fact that Harrogate and Many of the policies that the coalition Government Knaresborough is open for business. have proposed to the British people have no mandate— A further part of the right environment for business obviously, the deal was done after 6 May—and the is the emphasis placed on education and skills. In electorate, particularly Liberal Democrat voters, feel Harrogate and Knaresborough, we have excellent primary misled, betrayed and disfranchised. When I talk to and secondary schools. We also have Harrogate college, people in my constituency, they tell me that they did not which is launching a business school tomorrow. vote for many of the polices proposed in recent weeks and yesterday. In fact, they feel that they were not given I have already met the representatives of rail operating the opportunity to vote on the very policies that the companies and local education providers, because I coalition Government have proposed. As I have indicated, know how critical it is to have a robust business sector, the Liberal Democrats sought election clearly on the built on adding value. That is my background before mandate that they would not let cuts come during this I joined the House. financial year and that they were against VAT increases, The trust placed in me by the people of Harrogate but look at them now. and Knaresborough is a great honour, and I take that trust very seriously. I pledge to use my time here to John Thurso: May I reassure the hon. Lady that I speak up for my area and everyone in it. have spent a great deal of time talking to my constituents since the Government were formed and that the only 2.16 pm thing that they wish to express is their overwhelming Diana R. Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): relief that the Labour party is no longer in government? May I welcome you to your new position, Mr Deputy Speaker, and thank you for calling me so early in the Diana R. Johnson: If the hon. Gentleman talks to the debate? electorate in Yorkshire, he will find they express a I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Harrogate and different view. He might also find that the views of his Knaresborough (Andrew Jones). I am very pleased electorate have changed considerably since they heard indeed to follow a fellow Yorkshire MP making his the Budget. maiden speech. In particular, he talked about some of the best traditions of Yorkshire—first, the community Angela Smith: To underline that point, I am sure that spirit of Yorkshire people and, secondly, the great Yorkshire my hon. Friend understands the feelings of the people institution of Betty’s tea rooms. I am sure that hon. of Sheffield. They write to the local newspaper every Members on both sides of the House will appreciate the day to say that the Deputy Prime Minister will pay the fact that people can get a good cup of tea and a good price. piece of cake at Betty’s tea rooms. I wish to comment on one of the other contributions Diana R. Johnson: That is absolutely right. We have to the debate. The Secretary of State for Business, seen a political blind date, but we should not worry Innovation and Skills made quite an attempt at explaining because it is clear that Dave agrees with Nick, and his about-face in respect of what the Liberal Democrats that Nick agrees with Dave, so perhaps it will be okay in fought the general election on and how he now comes to the end. the Dispatch Box to defend the vicious and savage cuts There are a few measures in the Budget that I can in the economy. He is obviously a distinguished and support, such as the change to capital gains tax and the well-thought-of economist, so it was rather strange that bankers levy, although I am surprised that the levy will he did not pick up before that the position was so bad raise only about £2 billion because I think we could that he would have to change his party’s policy. He was raise much more. However, the broad thrust of the seen as brilliantly forecasting some of the problems in Budget is very bad news for my constituents. Hull the economy during the previous Parliament and he has North will see more individuals out of work, with been given great recognition for some of his forward- people’s opportunities wrecked and a decline in their thinking views, but he was not able to pick that up in the quality of life. The programme of fighting child poverty weeks before the election. I was rather taken aback by and inequality will go backwards, not forwards, and how out of touch he claimed to be and by how he had there will be big problems in health and housing. Most to have the meeting to explain the current economic importantly, wealth creation and enterprise will suffer situation and to change his party’s policy. in Yorkshire. I was also very surprised indeed to hear a Liberal I want to talk about four things in particular: the Democrat try to argue that VAT is not a regressive tax. I rewriting of the history of the economic situation by have never heard anything like it, and it took my breath the Conservatives and Lib Dems; the dogma that drives 327 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 328 Situation Situation the Budget; my constituency, and Yorkshire and the need to get behind the Government and allow the Humber; and Labour’s approach to dealing with the coalition to do its job. I would like to ask her who was economic situation in which we find ourselves. responsible for allowing Bradford & Bingley to give I am worried by the rewriting of the economic history away 125% mortgages? Who was responsible for removing of the recession and the falsification of the cause of the regulations in the banking industry in the late 1990s deficit. We know that the Prime Minister is familiar and thus allowing banks to lend people money in ways with airbrushing, and his deputy routinely airbrushes that they did not understand and when the payments away more than 100 years of his party’s history when it could not be afforded? suits him. The deficit was caused not by big government, but by big greed. Bankers and international speculators Diana R. Johnson: I remind the hon. Gentleman that are at its root. Conservative Members vociferously argued in the House In 2006 and 2007, I was fortunate to be the Parliamentary year after year that there should be less regulation of Private Secretary to the then Chief Secretary to the the financial markets. They criticised the Labour Chancellor Treasury, my right hon. Friend the Member for East and Government for the regulations that they introduced. Ham (Stephen Timms), whom I was pleased to see back The hon. Gentleman has a rather selective memory of in the Chamber today. During that time, early work was his party’s position in the late 1990s. being carried out on the current 2008 to 2011 public I fear that Yorkshire and the Humber will bear the spending period. We had enjoyed a decade of low brunt of the majority of cuts that come out of the inflation, steady growth and falling unemployment, and Budget. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member there was no serious deficit problem. At that time, the for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) is in the present Prime Minister and Chancellor used a soundbite Chamber. She has been a powerful advocate for her city about sharing the proceeds of growth. They also said of Sheffield and wanted to ensure that the sensible that they wanted to match the Labour Government’s arrangements that the Labour Government put in place spending plans up to 2011, as they kept saying until the for Sheffield Forgemasters went ahead. It is shocking end of 2008. that the coalition Government have refused to continue We all realised at that time that the spending round the process. Sheffield Members are making a strong would need to be tighter than the one immediately after case for the assistance, so it is a shame that the Deputy the millennium, but the adjustment was not remotely Prime Minister is out of step with his city colleagues. on the scale of the deficit in the public finances that opened up from 2008. The events of the two years that Angela Smith: Will my hon. Friend comment on the followed came about because of the greed-fuelled banking fact that the investment offered by the previous Government crisis that tipped the world into the worst recession was covered by an equity stake from Westinghouse, one since the 1930s. It is wrong to airbrush out what happened, of the world’s largest nuclear industry companies? Given to blame the problem on big government, and to be that that stake reduced the financial risk to the Government, oblivious to the fact that public services are important the earlier comments made by the Secretary of State for not just for fighting poverty and inequality, and for Business, Innovation and Skills were entirely incorrect. providing opportunity, but for an efficient, growing, modern economy. Since the middle of 2007, taxpayers Diana R. Johnson: I am sure that that is absolutely have had to pay to rescue the banking system—and not right. I must give credit to our civil service. Civil servants just in Britain—but now hard-working families and advise Ministers and respect the decisions that they public service workers are being asked to pay again make, but the civil service would have been clear if it because of the greed of the bankers and the speculators. thought that the assistance should not go ahead because The Budget is driven by dogma, not good housekeeping. public money would not be protected as fully as it It cuts too early and too deep, and it will hold back should be. growth, which my party saw as the main engine for I was surprised by the vague way in which the Business cutting the deficit. We know that further cuts will Secretary talked about the opportunities that his follow, including departmental cuts of up to 25%, but Department will make available in the regions. He cited I think that the coalition Government will make further just two examples: an incentive on national insurance cuts again and again, meaning that we have a spiral of contributions for small businesses and a proposed fund cuts and debt. to be distributed in the regions. There were no details of When Labour was in office, the Chancellor berated the fund, however, and it is unsatisfactory that businesses our Government for not mending the roof while the sun and enterprises in Yorkshire and the Humber have to was shining, but it now seems that he is up the ladder wait to find out what money might be available to them. removing the slates as the storm clouds of a double-dip That is not good government. recession gather on the horizon. In Hull, we need public I am sorry that the Business Secretary is not in his services and investment. They are important to the local place, but perhaps I will get some answers to my questions. economy. The coalition cuts, however, will harm our First, in view of the cuts to Yorkshire Forward, the quality of life. The Tories said in the past—I think that regional development agency, and the demise of Hull they still say this—that mass unemployment is a price Forward, and given that the Liberal Democrat-controlled worth paying. The market zealots on the Government council in Hull does not have a great record on regeneration Benches who said for years that they wanted less regulation and moving quickly and effectively, how will we be able of the markets and smaller government are now getting to promote investment in my city, which still needs their way. public investment to go in, year on year? Mr Ellwood: I am sad to hear the hon. Lady advocate Secondly, what will happen to opportunities for those a double-dip recession so early in a new Parliament. not in education, employment or training with the end The public do not want to hear those sorts of words. We of the future jobs fund and cuts to university places? 329 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 330 Situation Situation [Diana R. Johnson] A key issue that the coalition Government have to grapple with is the fact that just making cuts across the I have the great pleasure of the university of Hull being board is not the sensible approach. We need to think slap-bang in the middle of my constituency. I am worried about what policies we can introduce to spend and about local youngsters in particular not being able to invest now so that we can ensure that we save in future. access their local university. One of the policies very dear to my heart is healthy free How will the region’s construction sector fare, with school meals, which piloted in Hull but was slashed by council house building schemes being cancelled, road the Lib Dem council without the evidence being evaluated. schemes threatened and questions still to be answered I believe that there is an economic case to be made. about flood defence and protection work? Despite the Investing in children early on, making sure that they eat promised good news on port ratings, will the Humber healthily and well and do as well as they can in their actually get the investment that the Labour Government education, will reap benefits for us as a society later on. had identified for the Hull port area and the use of the I was disappointed to see that the extension of the free site for wind turbine manufacturing? That is under school meals pilot has been abandoned by the coalition review by the coalition, which is worrying, because it Government, as well as the extension of eligibility to might well put off businesses coming to Hull. With the those in receipt of working families tax credit, which Typhoon fighter project’s future uncertain, what will would have made more families eligible to get free happen to the skilled jobs at BAE Systems at Brough? school meals for their children. That is very short I see other hon. Members from the Yorkshire and the sighted. Humber region in the Chamber. What about the reduction By cutting too deep and too early, we will risk jobs—jobs or elimination of the Humber bridge tolls, which we in Hull, jobs in Yorkshire and the Humber, and jobs were so close to achieving under the previous Government? nationally. We will have higher welfare costs and less tax Those are all questions that will affect the economic revenue. Growth will be suppressed and I think that the viability of Yorkshire and the Humber, and I want some deficit will be much worse. answers. Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): I was previously Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: The hon. Lady has spent her a councillor in the hon. Lady’s constituency, so I consider entire speech carping about my right hon. Friend the her a friend. I was interested to hear that we were close Chancellor’s Budget. Can she not at least welcome the to eliminating the bridge tolls. Exactly where had the large regional fund that is to be set up, through which money for that been identified? Will she confirm that funding will probably come to her area and which may the study started by the previous Government is continuing? well benefit her constituents by providing jobs? To give the impression that nothing is happening on the Humber bridge tolls is not fair. I would very much like Diana R. Johnson: I do not know—there is no detail. an answer to my first question, because some of us think We have had vague promises from Ministers about what that the previous Government started to talk about the the regions will get, but no detail. I cannot explain to Humber bridge simply because an election was coming. business men and entrepreneurs in my constituency where the money is coming from to support and incubate Diana R. Johnson: The hon. Gentleman does a disservice their businesses. As far as I am concerned, this is all hot to the fact that long before the general election, there air. [Interruption.] Wait and see? Businesses in my was cross-party working by hon. Members on both constituency cannot do that. They need to know whether sides of the House to make the economic case for there is to be investment and support. If the coalition reducing the Humber bridge tolls. He will know that the Government are serious about supporting the economy then Transport Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member in the regions, they should have had their proposals and for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), had decided not to allow the policies ready for yesterday’s debate and been able to increase in the tolls and a review was being conducted explain what money is available to people in the north. of whether the toll could be reduced to £1. All I was doing was questioning what was going to happen, and I The welfare reforms and the tax changes announced would be grateful if the coalition partners threw some yesterday will cause great problems in my constituency. light on the subject. I am sure that all hon. Members are Although basic rate taxpayers are promised an extra keen to get a satisfactory resolution to that ongoing £170 a year in income tax allowance, that will be far problem. outweighed by the VAT increase to 20% from 4 January I have a few comments to make about what Labour next year. We have heard at length about the Lib Dem would have done, had we secured a majority at the election campaign poster saying that there would be a election. It is clear—the shadow Chancellor made it Tory VAT bombshell, but the Deputy Prime Minister—bless clear—that of course we need to get the deficit down. him!—has done another U-turn that takes his party to a Before the election we had legislated to say that we new level of opportunism. That regressive tax on growth would halve the deficit within four years, and in the will cost the average household £425 a year. That is Departments work was being done to identify where without counting the other regressive changes in things reductions could be made. I was in the Department for such as housing benefit, child benefit and child trust Children, Schools and Families, so I know that areas funds and the disgraceful scrapping of the health in had been clearly identified, and my right hon. Friend pregnancy grant. the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston (Alan Johnson) told me that clearly identified savings upon Hull West and Hessle told the Prime Minister and had been put together in the Home Office. It is wrong to the Deputy Prime Minister—the self-righteous brothers— say that the Labour Government had not started work; they are leading this Government and repeating the PR however, we made it clear that we had to wait until the mantra, “We’re all in it together,” but some parts of our growth in the economy was secure. country will be altogether more in it than others. 331 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 332 Situation Situation A party that has never been known for sharing wealth Secondly, how would I feel about the Budget if I were and opportunity fairly is very keen to share austerity sitting on the Government Benches supporting a wholly with everyone. Liberal Democrat Government? We can all have aspirations. This past month shows that we have replaced a Let me answer the first question. I would feel extremely one-nation Government with a coalition of the two cross, deeply angry and irritated, because I would see a oldest parties, representing the misconceived interests Budget that contained a mass of things for which I had of the privileged classes in this country. My constituents just campaigned and which I had proposed to my in Hull North, Bransholme, Orchard Park and similar constituents as things I wanted to do in government—so areas, who need public support and public investment I would have been sitting on the Opposition Benches to give them the opportunities that, through no fault of powerless, while whoever was in government was their own, they lack, will suffer because of this Budget introducing all the measures for which I had fought. I and this coalition Government. would say to myself, “How on earth do I oppose that?” but I would not be able to come up with much of an answer. 2.39 pm John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) Angela Smith: I wonder therefore whether the hon. (LD): I congratulate you on your election, Mr Deputy Gentleman campaigned against Lib Dem policy in the Speaker. This is the first time I have spoken with you in election, and campaigned for massive cuts to the economy the Chair. now rather than later. First, let me respond to the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana R. Johnson). The thrust of her John Thurso: As a matter of fact, given my experience speech was almost entirely, “It’s the banks wot done it,” on the Treasury Committee, I was extremely careful whereas her party, although in government, did not about what I said. I stated my preferences, but I also have a great deal of responsibility. She is right in that stated the principles underlying them; I shall come on the major part of the crisis was brought to a head by the to that in a moment. First, however, let me answer my irresponsibility of the banking community throughout second rhetorical question, which requires a little more the world, especially in the UK, but she is not right to consideration. The first thing that I would look at—this ascribe the whole crisis to that one cause, because there pertains to what the hon. Lady was asking—would be are two more that must be taken into account. Probably whether the deficit needs to be dealt with now in depth. the most important—it has driven many of the problems I shall draw guidance from my experience as a member in the economy—is the imbalances in the world economy. of the Treasury Committee and from my own experience I served on the Treasury Committee in the last Parliament, of rescuing nearly bankrupt companies in the past. and even before Northern Rock, that was something to In past three years or so on the Select Committee, I which Members from all parties were drawing attention. observed how often Members in all parts of the House There is a major structural problem in the world economy, were behind the curve in estimating the scale of the and because of our particular weakness in relation to problem. When we looked at Northern Rock in our the financial sector, we suffered more than others. report “The run on the Rock”, it took time to perceive The second thing that has to be taken into account is not only the scale of what happened at that institution the amount of debt in the economy. The point is extremely but the fact that it was a precursor or early symptom well made by the chart on page 7, which sets out that of what was to come later in 2008. I remember the relationship, so that one can see the inexorable rise of Governor telling us quite late in 2008 how this was a debt in the financial sector in comparison with debt in financial crisis that he hoped would not get into the real non-financial companies and households. If I remember economy. Looking back, one has to say that that was a the figures correctly, over the past 50 years or so, the false hope. consolidated balance sheet of the financial industry has gone from roughly half of GDP to five times GDP. Huw Irranca-Davies: I share the hon. Gentleman’s That is the core of the problem: at every level in society frustration, as many people were behind the curve, but we have been living beyond our means, and it is necessary one person who was not is “Danny” Blanchflower, the to deal with that. economist, who spotted it coming, identified it and sent I want to focus mainly on enterprise, growth and out the warning signals. We, collectively, were not listening. rebalancing the economy, but I should like to make one He is now warning, “Cut hard and deep and you’ll send or two general points about the Budget as a whole. The the recession backwards.” Should we listen to him? right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) is not in the Chamber now, but having shadowed him as John Thurso: We should certainly listen to “Danny” a Minister in several Departments in the last two Blanchflower, for whom I have great respect. He gave Parliaments, and having dealt with him in the Treasury evidence to the Select Committee on several occasions, Committee, I have great respect for him, and I echo the and he is one of a number of voices that we should— remarks of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State [Interruption.] Absolutely—it was David Blanchflower’s for Business, Innovation and Skills about his integrity. nickname at the time. We should certainly listen to him, He was given a hospital pass when he accepted the keys but we should also listen to all the evidence. He was, on to No. 11, and it is to his credit that he managed to stay that occasion, more right. I am not persuaded, having on his feet. None the less there have been some significant heard other voices, that he is entirely right now—but he mistakes, to which I shall allude. does highlight a danger, and we should certainly not Looking at the Budget as a whole, I ask myself two disregard that. Across the piece, as the hon. Gentleman questions. First, how would I feel about the Budget if I acknowledged, we did not appreciate the scale of what were sitting in my old home on the Opposition Benches? was coming. 333 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 334 Situation Situation [John Thurso] large amount of money, but it makes the point that if we take the Budget in the round, including VAT, which When I look at what was happening in the early part nobody can deny is regressive on its own, we clearly find of this year, my instinct would be to cut the least that the pain is shared, and felt less by those at the possible, and to stimulate growth as much as possible. bottom than by those at the top. So I conclude that the However, there comes a point at which we have to deal Budget is fair. with what is before us, rather than what we hoped might I welcome the Budget. It is not one that I would have be before us. It became clear during the election—and I liked to have to support. I would have liked to see the remember making this point an all-party hustings—that coffers full, and to be able to be nice to people—but in throughout Europe it was a very different ball game the circumstance this is the right Budget, and it is fair. from the one with which we had all been dealing just three, four, or five weeks before, and that we needed to Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman take that into account. not also reflect on the fact that those tables do not I am therefore predisposed to assume the worst, and capture the punitive effect of the forthcoming 25% cut to look hard at the core problem. The next piece of in non-ring-fenced public services on people who most guidance derives from my experience of running companies rely on benefits and public services? Those elements in in the hospitality industry. I am not for a moment the tables and in the Budget do not really take into saying that the relatively small companies that I ran account—in the round, as he puts it—the full impact of bear comparison to a country, but some of the principles the cuts that we will see. do. I remember taking over two companies that were essentially bankrupt. If the owning shareholders had John Thurso: The hon. Gentleman makes a very good not guaranteed the finance, they would have gone into point. Broadly speaking, 20% to 25% cuts are going to administration. In both cases, my job was to turn them be introduced in this autumn’s spending review, and we round, and I heard arguments about how I should get will need to look at that. However, I find it difficult hold of money and invest it on the one hand, or how I to take lessons on that from a party that introduced should redress the costs of the company on the other. £40 billion of cuts without a single centime being allocated When people do not have money—the piggybank is to anything whatever. That is like a bankrupt father empty, and it is difficult to get money from the banks—they promising his children a sackful of presents at Christmas have no choice but to live within their means. I learned as the bailiffs wheel him out on Christmas eve: it is that by stabilising company expenditure, and forgoing deeply irresponsible. some investment for the future, I could produce a more Let me turn to the specific measures. I absolutely stable enterprise. It is the same with this country and must commend the Government on their commitment the balance of risk. The risk, on the one hand, of failing to consider a pilot scheme for a remote rural fuel to take action is that we seriously run out of money, our discount, because year in, year out I made that proposal credit rating is reduced, our borrowing costs go up, and from the Opposition Benches and the previous Government we end up spending far more on debt interest than on compared it to the cost of beer and all sorts of other health, education or defence. Something would then be things. My friends in the Conservative party chose to imposed on us, as happened with the Labour Government wait and see what would happen, and I am delighted in the 1970s. The risk on the other side is that if we cut that they did so, because they now agree that my measure too quickly, growth will be stifled and we will take should be considered, for which I thank them warmly. longer to come out of our current situation. Balancing On enterprise, it is critical that we rebalance the those two risks, I believe that the risk is greater if we do economy. First, we must achieve a rebalancing whereby not deal with the deficit, so it needs to be dealt with. there is more private sector and less public sector. That Secondly, is the Budget fair? My right hon. Friend does not mean that the public sector has to shrink; the the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and private sector has to grow to support the public sector. Skills made an extremely good case for demonstrating Secondly, we absolutely have to move our economy that it is—in as much as any pain can be fair. I would far away from an utter dependence on financial services, rather be standing here supporting a Budget that gave which delivered 25% of tax revenue three years ago, and people lots of money. That would be lovely, but, as the towards manufacturing industries and technologies and Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury said, there is no skills-based industries throughout the regions of the money. So we have to be prudent, and that means that United Kingdom. we have to share the pain. The whole point is that I am glad that the Government will continue with everybody will suffer, but we have to ensure that the and enhance the enterprise finance guarantee scheme. suffering falls least on the most vulnerable, and most on However, the scheme has one flaw, which I have highlighted those who can afford it. Charts A1, A2 and A3 in the many times: the Catch-22 situation whereby the banks Red Book set out exactly how the suffering will fall, and that do not lend then decide whether to include an it is perfectly clear from them that those at the bottom enterprise in the scheme. There must be some way in will bear the least pain and those at the top bear most. which the banks’ decisions can be reviewed. In my constituency average earnings are £21,000, and I also commend my right hon. Friend on the action table A1 on page 64 shows that after the Budget somebody being taken to get non-bank finance into small and on £20,000 will be £170 better off, given the amount of medium-sized businesses, but may I gently ask my friends income tax and national insurance that they pay. They who are now on the Front Bench to look at the papers will pay £170 less than they would have done. Table A2 that I wrote—they were in the Liberal Democrat shows that they will receive £145 less in family tax manifesto—on enterprise funds, and consider whether credit, but when we put the two amounts together we some of those ideas might help to address how we get see that they will still be £25 better off. That is not a equity funding into small businesses? May I also stress 335 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 336 Situation Situation the importance of the regional growth funds and express be—it has to be those at home. I am pleased that the cut the hope that the details of them and how they will will not affect the front line, but concerned about how it work will be brought forward quickly? The concepts of will affect other areas. Will it mean that commanders an infrastructure bank and a green investment bank are pensioned off? Will it affect the MOD in buying should be brought forward as rapidly as possible, too. equipment? The MOD will look for the best prices, as it Having looked at the Budget, I conclude that it is not probably should, but we do not want spending to be one that I particularly like to see brought in, but it is diminished in such a way that its position is undermined. necessary. There is pain, and it has to be borne, but the The cadet forces make a significant contribution across Budget is equitable in that the pain falls least on those the whole United Kingdom, but particularly in Northern who have least. Notwithstanding my personal regard Ireland. It is very important for us in Northern Ireland for the shadow Chancellor, I really cannot take lessons to have cadet forces that bring the communities together. from him or his party, having listened for nine years We have tried to achieve that for years, and we are now from the Opposition Benches to their boasts about the seeing the partnership begin to work better than it ever end of boom and bust. We now know that the right has before. Cadet forces, by their very nature, are drawn hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) from both communities. There are more people from was the father of all booms and the mother of all busts. the Roman Catholic side of the community in the cadet That much-vaunted child, prudence, is lying battered, forces in Londonderry, which the hon. Member for bloody and bruised in the gutter—and it is this Government Foyle (Mark Durkan) represents, as well as in Limavady, who will take her out and restore to health. Enniskillen and Strabane. That has come about because joining the cadet forces has been attractive to young boys and girls, who recognise that some day they will 2.58 pm want to serve in the British Army and the other services, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Thank you for including the Royal Air Force. calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I, too, congratulate I want to highlight lone parents. I welcome the fact you on being elevated to the position of Deputy Speaker? that the Government want to encourage them back to Before I came to the House today, I thought about work; I think we all want to do that. However, when what was I going to say, and I was mindful of that they have the opportunity to do so, we want them to saying, “Whenever the clouds are on the horizon, you have the jobs to go to. It is great to have this support in can either shelter from the storm or run with the wind.” theory, but how does it come about in reality? Do the I am conscious that this Government are doing more people have jobs, and are there opportunities and options? sheltering from the storm. The question for us, as I am not sure that there are. I am concerned about the elected representatives at Westminster, and for our Government’s position. constituents is: is there somewhere to shelter? That is what I shall comment on, but I am also conscious of the Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): The hon. Gentleman comments that I make. I always try to make constructive makes an important point. Does he accept that many of comments, because that is my nature, but I shall also us represent constituencies with large numbers of single underline some concerns that I, as an elected representative parents who are doing valiant work as parents, and that and MP, believe I am duty bound to mention. for them the problem is not a lack of work ethic but a In Northern Ireland, and in Strangford, which I lack of work? represent, there is a very clear tightening of the belt. The marks are already there, and I just wonder how Jim Shannon: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his tight the belt will be by the time the Budget is eventually intervention; I wholeheartedly agree with his comments. farmed out to all parts of the United Kingdom and all It is all very well to have the theory of getting lone Departments. We in Northern Ireland are mindful of parents back to work, but if the jobs are not there, that in relation to the block budget. that theory is undermined. The Government must I am very conscious also of the serious economic consider that. state that we are in. I am not ignoring it, and neither are In Northern Ireland, some 60% of jobs are in the the people of the United Kingdom. We all recognise public sector or public sector-dependent. I said this in that drastic measures need to be taken, but I have to my maiden speech a fortnight or so ago, but I will say it ask: are they being taken in the right place and taken again because it is very important. I understand that the correctly, and will they adversely affect my constituents Government’s pledge is to increase private sector jobs and, indeed, those of many other hon. Members who and build up that area. However, before anything changes have spoken today? I recognise the need for health and in the public sector, there has to be a private sector that perhaps international development to be ring-fenced, fills the gap, so that those opportunities are there. and that the Budget will not necessarily affect those I turn to the 2.5% rise in VAT. In the area that I areas. There is some talk about education, or at least represent, there are a great many small and medium-sized some parts of it, remaining untouched as well, but in businesses, which by their very nature create a lot of that case there will have to be cuts in other Departments. jobs collectively. Individually, that may amount to three, I recognise that this House is very supportive and four or five jobs in a family business, but collectively proud of the armed services as they fight in Afghanistan, they run into many hundreds, probably thousands. Iraq and all over the world. Is a 25% cut in defence fair? Although the rise is not going to kick in until January The Prime Minister has given a commitment to the 2011, it causes great concern for the area that I represent, soldiers on the front line, wherever the war is taking and specifically for businesses. Some small businesses place. However, if there is to be a 25% cut in defence, may be hanging on by the skin of their teeth, and someone has to feel the pinch and the pain, and if it is finding it very hard to get through difficult times, while not the soldiers on the front line—and it should not looking ahead to perhaps another two, three or four 337 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 338 Situation Situation [Jim Shannon] something to be done, but they do not feel particularly in tune with its impact on them. That concerns me, and years of austerity and the associated difficulties. Many I have to put it on the record. None of those half a businesses will try to absorb the VAT increase rather dozen examples in the provincial press or the Belfast than pass on the extra prices, which they cannot do—not Telegraph involved people who would not feel pain over because they do not want to, but because they cannot the coming period. do it in the competitive market that they are in. They The Government encouraged people to take up tax have to try to take on large multinational businesses credits, and they enjoyed a certain quality of life as a that have a bigger market and can therefore absorb such result. All of a sudden, that could change. I should like costs. to say something about those in the middle class bracket. When someone is on £35,000 to £40,000 a year, we David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP): Does my hon. sometimes think they are doing all right, but half that Friend agree that one of the biggest hindrances for income might go on their mortgage, and people’s hopes small businesses across the whole United Kingdom, for their children and communities are in their houses. including Northern Ireland, is the level of bureaucracy I am concerned about the impact on such families of and red tape that they have to handle, as they are very reducing or freezing working tax credits or child tax much hands-on operations? The new coalition Government credits over a three-year period. have promised to remove that, and we need to see to the evidence very quickly. The one great commodity over which international wars have been fought—there will probably be many Jim Shannon: I thank my hon. Friend. I wholeheartedly more of them—is oil. The price of oil today is $77.55 a agree, and I can give examples. I represent a very rural barrel, and prices for oil, diesel and petrol were at their constituency. A questionnaire was recently put out to highest three years ago, when a barrel cost $147. Who the farming community asking people about the biggest makes the extra money and extra profit, and how? problem they had. They said that it was red tape and Clearly, someone is making it. The hon. Member for bureaucracy. The same applies to those in the fishing Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso) industry and those who have small businesses. It seems referred to the concessionary fuel scheme in his area. I to be coming at them left, right and centre. Europe has represent a rural area, so I would be keen to know how an influence as well. That issue must be addressed very that works. Perhaps the Government should consider soon. reducing fuel duty to enable people to get over the hard Let me turn to the position of pensioners. As times much more easily than in the past. Elderly people representatives, we have an opportunity to really feel for struggle to fill their tanks with oil. people and to see issues they face. My area, like many For the fishing industry at Portavogie, which is an others, boasts an increasing population of elderly people, important part of Strangford, fuel costs represent 60% and will have its greatest ever number of pensioners in of the boats’ running costs. A great many of those coming years. I am very conscious of how pensioners fishermen are having difficulty getting through the times budget, and how they will cope with a VAT increase on they face at this moment. There is some talk about the products that they buy just to keep living. That is European funding, but there have been delays. The extra money that they have to find. Has consideration hardships that the fishing industry faces are critical, been given to how the increase will affect pensioners and it may not survive. specifically? I welcome the Government’s commitment to reduce There has to be good news in everything, like the corporation tax from 28% to 24%, which is significant. curate’s egg that is good in parts. It is hard to find Last week, I met bank officials in my town, and they enough good parts in this curate’s egg, but that is by the outlined the measures they would like. By and large, the way. The fact that the income tax threshold has been Government have reflected what the banks wanted. raised by £1,000 is good news—I give credit where However, what the banks want is not always best, as we credit is due. It will benefit some households to the tune have seen over the past year or two. The reduction in of £175, at least, and perhaps more elsewhere. corporation tax is good news. The Government have At the same time, however, there is a negative factor: realised that businesses need that help. The Chancellor child benefit will not rise for three years in line with stated that that is the lowest rate in any major western inflation. People will say, “Well, that’s how things are, economy and the best rate in the G20, but the Republic and that’s how it has to happen.” As someone who or Ireland’s corporation tax is 12%. As Northern Ireland keeps his ear close to the ground and understands how has a land border with the Republic, I suggest that these things work—I was not born with a silver spoon corporation tax should be looked at more sympathetically in my mouth, and I know how difficult it is for people to for us than elsewhere. make do—I understand that the child tax credit and the Businesses are very conscious of corporation tax. I working tax credit are critical. Many people visit my have met a number of business people in my area office and advice centre, just as they visit many other recently. Pritchitt Foods in Newtownards is one of the Members, and I can see what is involved in balancing largest employers in the area, and corporation tax is the the books and working out the weekly family budget. biggest factor for that company in trying to make its These people do not live beyond their means by any business work. It is a go-ahead, progressive firm that standard, but they require tax credits just to survive. creates significant employment in my area. It feels that My provincial press today—I bought the papers this the 4% reduction will go part of the way to addressing morning—gave five or six examples of people who will its concerns. I have asked the Government about this be affected. They included families with four children, matter, and I understand that they will be making a single parents with two children, and some who are statement in October about corporation tax in Northern self-employed. Those people recognise the need for Ireland. I look forward to seeing whether we can have a 339 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 340 Situation Situation further reduction, which would help us. We also have I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim the largest energy costs in the whole United Kingdom. I Shannon) on his passionate and balanced speech. I suggest that that also needs to be offset and considered. served in Northern Ireland and am aware not only of I could not let this occasion pass without commenting many of the challenges that hon. Members face over on child poverty. Wearing my other hat as an Assembly there, but of the opportunities. It is a pleasure to follow Member in Northern Ireland, I had the opportunity to him, and I agree very much about the opportunities in contribute to an inquiry on the underlying issues. Some the development and working of the cadets in bringing 20% of children in Northern Ireland are deprived through communities closer together. It is wonderful to see that poverty. What will happen to those who find themselves initiative moving forward. in child poverty over the next couple of years? There is The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North some £80 per household for children in Northern Ireland, (Diana R. Johnson), who has just walked out the Chamber, as against £600 in other parts of the United Kingdom, made an entirely negative speech. Yes, whichever party so child poverty will be much more important to us. won the election would have faced challenges, but how The next days and months will tell us clearly what can she stand there and simply demand more money for impact the Budget will have. I am concerned that the certain projects in certain parts of the country, without welfare savings of £11 billion will devastate the poor. saying where it should come from? Labour Members Will the Chancellor look seriously at that? have failed to understand the consequences of the election result. It was clear that nobody won, so why continue to I think that England and Slovenia have been playing look back at the manifestos of individual parties and for 15 minutes—I do not know what the score is—and ask, “Why are you now not doing this, or that?” We had am mindful that some Members will wish to see what is to rise to the occasion and ask, “What is needed for the happening, but I want to make one last point, on country?” We have to put aside our party differences disability living allowance. When I read of the DLA and meet the challenge, which is to bring about stable changes, I was exasperated and deeply concerned, because government and leadership. The Liberal Democrats I felt that they were a direct attack on those who can and the Conservatives were able to do that, but of least face up to such an attack. There are some delays in course it meant a certain amount of compromise. So it relation to how the system will be run. Many of the is wrong to harp on about aspects of the manifesto and cases that I have fought as an elected represented have say, “Why haven’t you included this? Why haven’t you been on behalf of those who need DLA—those who done that? You’ve gone against the people who voted have mobility problems, who are getting over cancer for you.” operations or who have immobilising diseases. Such cases have involved those with heart problems, and Huw Irranca-Davies rose— many involve people who have extensive care needs. Why target a section of the community who basically Owen Smith rose— need that money more than anything else? Do the Mr Ellwood: I see that that has prompted a reaction Government see savings? They may see savings, but I from Labour Members. see the people and their needs, as a great many other hon. Members do. I ask the Government to reconsider, Huw Irranca-Davies: Does the hon. Gentleman accept and to look carefully at whether they should pursue that in the election there was a fundamental divide over savings from those who receive DLA. Doing so will the approach to the economic recovery, which was impact on a group of people who can least respond and encapsulated in the manifestos of the two main parties deal with the financial implications. People who are on that lost—the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats? DLA focus on their health and how to get through the The Tories did not win outright either, but those two day, as do the people who care for them. If the Government significant parties both, at the time, agreed with Nick add to that a financial burden by making it hard for and Vince that we had to delay making the cuts until the them to receive their benefits, their health will be affected. recovery was ensured. I am not in the business of doing that, and I hope the Government are not. Mr Ellwood: I am grateful for that intervention because I rest my case on that point, and I hope that my it gives me licence to underline the fact that, if we are to comments will be taken on board. The Budget delivers move into a coalition, there needs to be agreement, and some things for us. I am not being critical of all of it, it is a tribute to the parties and the leaders that in a but I am critical of some measures. I ask the Government short period they achieved something that, in countries to take those matters on board. I hope that they will such as Belgium, takes 100 days—forming a coalition have some better ideas on DLA. We all have to work grouping while all the horse-trading takes place. Yes, with the Budget—we cannot do so individually—but there are compromises and changes that were not expected the Government need to take on board the needs of during the election. However, according to the polls the those who are less able to face the financial burdens that country supports what we are doing. will come upon them. Owen Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman think it a minor omission that, although the Conservatives’manifesto 3.19 pm said that they would not increase VAT, they have done exactly that and introduced an enormous, £13 billion Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): I tax? There was no mention of that before, so should we welcome you to your place, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is trust their manifestos in future? 20 minutes past 3, so I am surprised—but glad—to see you in your seat, because the England game against Mr Ellwood: Rather than leave a curt note on the Slovenia has now started. I know that you have been to desk of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, we have Slovenia many times, and it is great to see you here. given an indication of the real situation in the UK. 341 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 342 Situation Situation [Mr Ellwood] Britain. If we do not, interest rates and inflation will rise, and that is what would lead to the dreaded double-dip Again, I underline the fact that there are aspects of the recession. I am glad that our triple A rating is now coalition agreement we perhaps were not expecting—that secured, thanks to the Budget. should be understood on both sides of the House. I fear I will give the Labour Government their due: they that it will remain a Labour tactic to go on about this, acted promptly and expeditiously when the Northern perhaps to try to drive a wedge into the coalition. That Rock issue broke. But then what happened? We have is dangerous, out of touch and wrong, because the been left with one of the worst economic inheritances nation said to us, “We don’t support any one party imaginable. They racked up one of the biggest budget outright”, but it approves of a coalition and the leadership, deficits in Europe. If that is not shocking enough, our and the stability that they and this Budget are providing. borrowing amounts to unheard sums of money. They My hon. and good Friend the Member for Harrogate continued to live beyond their means, borrowing £1 for and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) made an excellent every £4 they spent, which led to the doubling of the maiden speech. He mentioned Guy Fawkes wandering national debt. I well remember Labour’s last Budget, in through his constituency, and I am sure he will make March 2010. I was sitting in this Chamber waiting for just as big a bang in this place as Guy Fawkes did. I the leadership, initiative and guidance to take us out of cannot mention Harrogate without also paying tribute this mess. It was the Labour Government’s last opportunity to Bettys Café tea rooms. Those of us who have gone before the election to get us out of the mess they there for conferences will appreciate the delicacies that created, but it was more about the political, rather than Bettys provides—I only wish that could be emulated the economic, cycle. The previous Chancellor went as here in the House. The hon. Member for Hemsworth far as announcing £40 billion of cuts, but he did not say (Jon Trickett), who also is no longer in his place, made where the axe would fall, so he managed to ring-fence a the most Marxist speech I have heard in this place for black hole, which was a first in this House. many years. I was waiting to see how long it would be Significantly, the Labour party really had nothing to before Maggie was blamed for what has happened over say yesterday. The acting leader of the Labour party the past 13 years—and that is what we got from him. was almost like a rabbit in the headlights. Labour I was astonished. Members rolled out the same old line, which we have This emergency Budget is tough but necessary, difficult heard time and again—I am sure we will hear it again in but unavoidable. It is not the time for timid steps in the the summation today—about “the same old Tories”, hope that we can tiptoe our way out of recession. We thereby exhibiting an insane refusal to acknowledge the needed a bold statement of intent, mapping out a clear scale of the economic crisis. We have seen Labour route to recovery and invigorating confidence in our Members attempting endlessly to promote and fight a businesses and markets. That is exactly what we got. class war with the Conservatives. That is the direction in Three main themes run through the Budget and Red which they are now trying to take us, avoiding any Book. The first is one of responsibility in reducing the notion of mea culpa or of taking responsibility for the deficit over the next five years, mostly through spending mistakes made in the lead-up to the current crisis. That cuts but also, yes, through some tax rises. That is the illustrates how out of touch the Labour party has become. price we must pay for Labour’s incompetence and legacy. Labour continues to argue that we cannot rip the Economic growth is the second theme. Measures money out of the economy—through the cuts, the taken in the Budget are designed to support businesses increases, and so forth—and also achieve growth, but I and stimulate growth, which will help to generate jobs believe that we can. We need to give business and the as businesses are able to expand. That will mean cutting private sector the space to breathe by reducing national red tape, which will free businesses, because removing insurance and corporation tax. Those are the measures red tape is the same as introducing a tax cut but without we need to take. That is what will help us to avoid going reducing public revenue. It also means preventing Labour’s into a double-dip recession, allowing our businesses to job tax through a rise in national insurance, reducing thrive and employment to grow. Labour’s tactic—I am corporation taxes and improving our infrastructure. worried about this, because I understand that the unions The third theme is fairness. Of course, we are in a bankroll Labour to the tune of 60%—is to fight the period of austerity, but every part of society must make public sector cuts. That is what we will see as things a contribution to paying off our debts. At the same move forward: these astonishing arguments why, unlike time, however, we must protect the least well-off. Listening any other part of our society, the public sector should to some of the contributions from Opposition Members, somehow be ring-fenced and not have to share some of one might think that no such initiatives were part of the the economic pain we are experiencing. Budget. However, we have ensured that those earning The unions are clearly looking for a fight. I pay less than £21,000 in the public sector will not be subject tribute to the nurses, doctors, teachers, train drivers—all to the pay freeze. We will see a £1,000 increase in the those who work hard—but let us look at who is now personal tax allowance for low and middle-income earners; taking over some of the unions: Dave Prentis from and finally we will see a re-linking of the basic state Unison, who has pledged to fight the cuts; Christine pension and earnings—well overdue and promised for Blower from the National Union of Teachers, who has years by Labour, but never acted upon. We will also see enthusiasm for industrial action of some form, as she a £2 billion commitment to child tax credits for the has made clear; and Paul Kenny from the GMB. Then poorest families, helping to ensure that there is no there is the Unite leader, Len McCluskey—we have all increase in measured child poverty over the next few seen what he has done to British Airways—who is years. seeking re-election. If he gets re-elected, the consequence These are the tough decisions we need to take. We will be strike after strike, because the public sector have to do this to secure our financial markets and unions—not the members, but the unions—do not recognise ensure that credit agencies do not lose confidence in that we are all in this together. 343 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 344 Situation Situation Labour’s tactic is to blame the global downturn. We Let me deal now with total borrowing as stated by the hear this all the time: “It’s not our fault; this is because Office for Budget Responsibility. This is now expected of what happened right across the world.” However, as to fall by 2.1% of GDP by 2015, or by £37 billion, I pointed out in an intervention, yes, we are exposed— which is exactly half of what Labour were predicting, perhaps more than other countries—because of the size and to reach 1.1% by 2016. of our financial services sector, which is one of the biggest in the world. That is accepted, but we cannot get Ms Eagle: I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman was away from the fact that the previous Government changed listening to the question I asked him. Given that he is the rules, making it unclear who was responsible for the quoting one particular forecast from the Office for City back in the late 1990s. That is why we got into the Budget Responsibility, will he have the good grace to position where banks were lending money they did not say on the Floor of the House that the size of the have to people who did not understand the situation, current deficit is now 2% of GDP lower than we predicted and in ways that meant that they could not pay it back. in the March Budget? The situation in which we find That is what led to the current position. ourselves is not a lot worse than we thought; it is better. We cannot blame Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae or the sub-prime market for the fact that, even up to about two years ago, Bradford & Bingley was offering mortgages Mr Ellwood: The hon. Lady has put her point on the of more than 125% to people who clearly could not pay record. My argument is that it is difficult for us to take them back. I remember when I was at university wandering what the shadow Chancellor says seriously when he has into Midland bank, as it then was, and seeking a been looking through rose-tinted glasses for the last mortgage. I was told that I had to cough up one third of 10 years. Time after time, either he or his predecessor, the price of the house. What happened to that rule? It the former Prime Minister, came up with growth forecasts went, and that is why we ended up with more money that were well out of touch with what was happening. than houses were worth being lent to people who could That is what led us down the path of thinking that the not pay it back. That is a British problem, not an economy was doing much better than it really was. international one, and that is what led to the crisis we [Interruption.] If the hon. Lady would stop talking, she face now. would hear what I am saying. She must understand that if the previous Government had not kept on expressing I repeat my earlier point: I think Labour are going to the view that the economy was on the mend when it was adopt the tactic of trying to drive a wedge between the not, they would have recognised the position and put in coalition by saying, “The Lib Dems said one thing in place corrections to stop the spending. The first point the election and the Tories said another.” The nation I made was the fact that her Government were living will get bored of it. People want direction—they want beyond their means, yet the hon. Lady still sits there leadership and stability—not harping back to what and argues, without even having the grace or the courtesy happened prior to the election. to say sorry to the nation for the mess we are in. Let us look at the numbers. Our focus is to try to balance the books by 2016. We will cut the structural budget deficit to zero in the next six years. That deficit Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: Is it not a bit rich for the represents the hole in the public finances that is not hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) to claim credit expected to be repaired by the economic recovery. That for the deficit not being as bad as we thought it would is why we need to take the initiative that we have. Let us be when Labour had proposed £40 billion of cuts, but look at what the shadow Chancellor has done. I asked not one pound of them had been costed? him in an intervention whether he supports the Office for Budget Responsibility. I am pleased to say that for Mr Ellwood: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and the first time, he placed it on the record that he does. makes a powerful point. Let us not forget that we are However, it is difficult to take anything that he or quibbling—well, not quibbling, but the hon. Lady is anybody else on the Labour Front Bench says seriously, making an argument about pretty small sums of money given that the OBR reviewed his figures and revised his if we consider that this country’s total debt is £932 billion. growth forecast for 2011 from 3.25% to 2.6%. That is a record across Europe, it really is. It currently stands at more than 62% of GDP and is forecast to Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): As the hon. peak at 70% by 2013-14 and finally to start to fall in Gentleman is talking about the Office for Budget 2015-16. This is shocking; it is a cost to the taxpayer to Responsibility and its forecasts, will he have the good the tune of £43.3 billion in borrowing alone. That is grace to note that its recent deficit forecasts are considerably more than the defence budget—an outrageous position lower than those in the March Budget because more to be in. Any business presenting figures like that would money has been collected in taxes? The deficit that the be labelled bankrupt. hon. Gentleman is obsessing about is actually 2% of The OBR forecasts that the UK economy will grow GDP lower than the forecast in the March Budget. Will by 1.2% this year and 2.3% in 2011—not what was he have the decency to recognise the other side of the predicted, as Chancellor said. Unemployment is forecast coin, as well as this side of it? to rise to a peak of 8.1% this year, while inflation is expected to peak at 2.7% by the end of the year before Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): The falling back to the 2% target. What has happened is that structural deficit is higher. we have put in the initiatives to ensure that we keep a cap on unemployment, a cap on inflation and, most Mr Ellwood: As my hon. Friend the Member for importantly, a cap on interest rates. As the markets and Brentford and Isleworth (Mary Macleod) says from a financiers agree, if interest rates were forced to go up sedentary position, the structural deficit is actually higher. higher, that is what would lead to the double dip recession. 345 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 346 Situation Situation [Mr Ellwood] I also welcome the freeze on council tax, and I am pleased that Bournemouth borough council has met the Let me deal briefly with Europe. The Opposition now rules on that. It is important that there is a relationship claim that we should not look over our shoulder at what to encourage local councils to take more responsibility is happening in Spain, Portugal or Greece, but I think it for their own matters, but to get rewarded for that by is wise to recognise the folly of what would have happened Government. if Tony Blair had had his way when Labour were in I am pleased with the initiatives on small businesses. power. I am still astonished that it has taken until, I They make up 90% of our economy, and we need to think, last week to close the office of preparation for look after them. In places such as the south-west and entering the euro. That is absolutely barmy. It is worth Bournemouth, tourism is important—it is our fifth pointing out that if we had wanted to join the euro club, biggest industry—and we do not do enough to support the maximum budget deficit would have been 3% of it. Benefit will come from the lowest ever corporation GDP in any year. In 2009, Greece’s budget deficit was tax—the main rate has been cut from 28% to 24%—and running at 13.6%. We came in at 11.2%, so there are the cut in the tax rate for small companies from 21% to some similarities. 20%. There has also been an expansion of the loans It is recognised that the eurozone is in a mess because guarantee system, without which many good companies of trading patterns. After joining the club in 1999, were frustrated in getting money from the banks. I am Germany’s exports to Greece increased by 133%, and pleased that the Treasury Front-Bench team has the Germans are no doubt delighted about that. However, realised that. Greek exports to Germany increased by only 13%, so Fat government will also be reduced. A 25% reduction the system is one way. Not all those exports have been over the next four years will be very difficult, but paid for, and that is probably why Germany feels obliged government became bloated and far too centralised to help with the Greek debt situation. Part of the under Labour. I look forward to a much simpler set-up problem is also that the Mediterranean countries are that gives more power to communities. not as open as they should be, and skewed the stats in This Budget is the most dramatic and far-reaching order to join the club in the first place. That is why we since the war. Balancing the books must be a priority, were wise to stay out of the eurozone. With such huge but even in these tough times the Budget promotes a fiscal disparities, the 16 economies that share the single cultural shift in Britain, encouraging the individual, the currency face a massive reality check. In its current family, the community and the country to take responsibility. form, the euro could be finished. Ensuring that the banking sector and financial services Let me turn to specific Budget measures. I am pleased are better regulated to avoid a repeat of the economic that the Office for Budget Responsibility has been created. downturn is long overdue. This Budget is an ambitious I am also pleased by efforts to restore the pension link effort to reduce the nation’s borrowing and repair the to earnings. My constituency has many elderly people, damage created by the last Labour Government. Labour as does wider Dorset, and we have called for the measure will no doubt claim that many of these radical measures for a long time. I also want to dismiss a myth from the can be avoided, while secretly knowing that, had they election campaign that the Conservatives would get rid miraculously won the election, they would have had to of winter fuel payments and free bus travel. Such implement the very same changes themselves. scaremongering was completely out of order, and I am Let me end by congratulating the Chancellor and his glad to say that the provisions are still in place. team on producing such a comprehensive and robust Budget. While recognising the difficulties that it will Several hon. Members rose— impose on the entire country, I believe that it is appropriate and overdue medicine to expedite Britain’s way to recovery. Mr Ellwood: Here we go again. I give way to the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies). 3.45 pm Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab): I have enjoyed Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for the debate very much so far. It has exposed a fundamental raising that point, because I heard his party on many division between our approaches to the question of occasions in opposition deride winter fuel payments, how to emerge from the recession. Although it has been child tax credits and child trust funds as a waste of said that ideologies are dead, I think that it has exposed money. Therefore, it was reasonable for us to scare the a fundamental division between our ideologies as well. horses, and it was right that the Prime Minister was What those ideologies and those approaches mean to forced to do a dramatic U-turn. me are the impact on a single mother on a council estate in my constituency or a pensioner who has put a bit Mr Ellwood: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting away in a house at the top of Maesteg, and it is the same point. We all understand that things are said in the across the country. Chamber that perhaps cannot be said outside. During I thank the hon. Member for Bournemouth East the election, however, the Prime Minister, my right hon. (Mr Ellwood) for reminding me just how vast the gap is Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), made it between the ways in which we approach and understand very clear that we had no truck with the idea of getting the task of resolving the present situation. He began rid of the winter fuel allowance or free bus passes. He by asking us again to be “all in this together”. I hope even said that in the debate with the then Prime Minister, I shall be able to go some way towards explaining why and yet Labour still put out scaremongering leaflets. I cannot join him in that mission. When we get into election mode, let us have a bit more I knew before the election that if we were unsuccessful honesty. Does the hon. Gentleman wish to intervene and were not returned to government, we could expect again or has he given up? this approach. I must say in fairness to the hon. Gentleman 347 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 348 Situation Situation and his colleagues—including the right hon. Member much more credibility if you had not represented a for Witney (Mr Cameron), who leads his party—that Government who tried a different approach for 13 years, they were frank and upfront. We were not given the with highfaluting goals to reduce poverty to help your detail, but they said that this was what they would do. constituents, and who failed miserably in that. Is the However, while I have a great deal of genuine respect for hon. Gentleman truly saying that in his view there Members on the other side of the House—I am not should be no cuts—that the broken economic model trying to embarrass them—I did not expect that they should roll on as before and that that is the way to would end up on this side of the fence when the moment repair the economy—or does he have some idea of came, and their action has disappointed me. It has where the cuts should have fallen? exposed a division that will last in the Liberal Democrat party for a generation, which, from my perspective, is Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. greatly to be regretted. I should have thought that we Before the hon. Gentleman replies, may I just say to the would still have some allies, as we did before the election, hon. Lady, first, that interventions are supposed to be along with all the economists who are still saying that brief—I hope that all Members will take note of that? this is the wrong action to take. Secondly, on the use of “you”, may I remind the hon. I must apologise for confusing David Blanchflower Lady that her comments are not addressed to me in the and Danny Blanchflower, especially as there is, I understand, Chair? Given that we have been back in the Chamber a football match going on somewhere at the moment. I for quite some time now, I think Members need to come am not a great football fan, although I wish England all back to addressing each other correctly when putting the best. Unfortunately, Wales has not been in a major questions. competition for about 54 years. Huw Irranca-Davies: My apologies, Madam Deputy Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I just want to announce Speaker, for not welcoming you to the Chair. that the score is one-nil, and it is nearly half-time. My answer to the hon. Lady’s second question is: Huw Irranca-Davies: Well done England. Keep it absolutely not. None of us can resile from the fact that going. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will join me in there will need to be not just efficiencies, but cuts and wishing the Welsh team all the best in the repeat match prioritisation of projects and spending, and that will against the All Blacks at the weekend. hurt. My fundamental point, which I shall return to in some detail shortly, is about how we do it and when we I do not often get depressed in this place, but I was do it; the timing of it. utterly depressed yesterday as the Budget statement approached, and not for the obvious reasons. First, I I have to say that I could not disagree more with the was depressed because we were sitting on the Opposition hon. Lady’s earlier point, and neither could most of the Benches. We will say what we can, and we will do our child charities or the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. best to articulate a different vision of the best way [Interruption.] Yes, we have had criticism for not going forward and the practical measures that should be far enough, but I return to the remarks of the hon. taken, but the truth is that we are now in opposition. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) about child tax Secondly, I was depressed because the members of the credits. They can sometimes be complicated. I sometimes coalition appear to have closed their minds to any have constituents in my office who say, “Can you help alternative argument. If they are right, and if in a year me sort this out, because we have letters going back and or two I see that my communities have not been damaged forth?” I tell the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire disproportionately by the measures that they are proposing, Perry) this, however: none of my constituents would do I will acknowledge that. However, I was surprised to without them because of the material difference they note that—as has already been pointed out—the poverty have made to them. commitment in the Budget extends for only two years. When I send my children to school, I know that if they come home and say they have a trip to go on and it Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman will cost a fiver, a tenner or £20, I can say to them, give way? “Don’t you worry. I’m on an MP’s salary; it’ll be okay.” I also know, however, that there are constituents of Huw Irranca-Davies: In a moment. every Member in this House who will have to make the choice between putting groceries on the table and putting The previous Government had a long-standing that money towards things such as school trips. So commitment to tackling poverty, and, although they when the hon. Lady says this makes no difference, I can were not succeeding in everything, they were doing a honestly say to her, “Go and look at the statistics. Go great deal to lift people out of it. That commitment and look at the numbers of those who have been lifted could have been one of the fundamental principles in out of absolute poverty under the previous Government.” the Budget even in a time of austerity—a time of If she shares this commitment—as I am sure she does—I “We’re all in it together”—and not just for two years, tell her to put the pressure on the coalition Government but for the five years guaranteed by the 55% breakaway to make it clear before the summer what their poverty option. I hope that the hon. Lady will join me in saying targets are, and not for two years, but for five years. to her Front Benchers, “Come forward with the figures that show that poverty is not going to increase for the five-year life of this Parliament.” Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Claire Perry: Thank you very much for giving way, and I am looking forward to hearing what else you have Huw Irranca-Davies: I will make a little progress first, to say. What you have said so far would, however, have and then give way. 349 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 350 Situation Situation [Huw Irranca-Davies] pieces of research could have shown another 100 examples similar to the Chancellor’s, but they would be examples The question that we should be asking is: how does of the extremes. Let me put a concern to the House. this country get itself out of the recession more quickly What will happen if the policy makes families homeless? and in better shape, rebuilding manufacturing and the What will happen when children are dislocated from private sector, with minimum damage to society—to their schools or their friends, or when vulnerable families front-line services and vulnerable people and communities are removed from social care packages and support as —and also while minimising job losses, because we have they flee to cheaper rent areas? Has any thought whatever been there before? I have not always been an MP. I used been given to the effect of the policy on ghettoisation? to work in the private sector, and I went into lecturing. Was there any discussion in the run-up to the Budget When I was a lecturer, three types of essay were put in with organisations that represent the homeless, vulnerable front of me. There were the poor ones, and I would families or children in poverty? I would really like to offer constructive advice and say, “You need to do this know that. to get better.” There were the essays that were done very well, and even then I said, “You need to tweak and Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I happen to have adjust and do better.” There were also the ones that had worked personally with the Centre for Social Justice in misunderstood the question. I noticed in the Budget the past couple of years, and I know that colleagues statement yesterday that the headline issue was dealing there have put enormous effort into all the areas that with the sovereign debt crisis. That was repeated by the the hon. Gentleman has just listed. Of course the CSJ is hon. Member for Bournemouth East today when he independent, but the Secretary of State for Work and said that the priority is to ensure our financial status to Pensions is now in the Cabinet. The hon. Gentleman ensure our credit status. Those things are vital, but should rest assured that the Conservative party has put surely it is at least equally important to avoid the enormous effort into all those things. situations that we had in the 80s and at other times. Measures such as the current proposals lead unnecessarily Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for —this is a judgment issue—to greater unemployment his reassurance, but I will be reassured when I see the than that mentioned in the Red Book. Such levels of detail. I will be reassured when I see that this policy will unemployment would lead to greater damage to individuals not have the impacts that I have just laid out. We are and communities. I really hope that the Chancellor is privileged to be here and to be able to speak up for correct in his approach and that the Liberal Democrats people. Let us speak up, as I am sure he would want are supporting the right way forward, but I worry that to do, for those who could be disadvantaged by the we have seen this all before. unforeseen consequences of this response to Daily Mail Let us look at some of the detail. The Government headlines. are going to adopt the consumer price index for the “Ending payments like the health and pregnancy grant and uprating of benefits and tax credits from April 2011. slashing child tax credits at a £40,000 joint income threshold is The effect will be that benefits and tax credits will going to put pressure on families already struggling.” diminish and wither year after year. On disability living Those are not my words, but those of Bob Reitemeier, allowance, the Government will introduce the use of the chief executive of the Children’s Society. He added: objective medical assessments for all DLA claimants “We are also concerned about the amount to be clawed back from 2013-14. I am waiting to see the detail on that, from the welfare bill over the next five years as the chancellor because extensive work had already been done by the aims to find savings of £40 billion.” previous Government on welfare reform, medical Gingerbread, the charity for single parents, has said assessments and the test. The lack of detail is what that families having a second child could be worse off worries me. Is this approach about using the stick or the by up to £1,200 a year. Chief executive Fiona Weir said: carrot? If it is entirely about using the stick, I guarantee that we will be punishing people who are very vulnerable “Having a baby puts the family finances under pressure. These cuts will really hit families with young children hard.” and who do not have a voice to object. If it is about using the carrot as well—our Government were focused The concerns are not mine alone, therefore, and I am on that and I think that the Secretary of State for Work genuinely not indulging in party politics. I will say well and Pensions, who was looking into social mobility for done to the Government if their proposals are right and the Government, suggested that measures should be they work, but my real fear is that they are acting more about using the carrot—where are those resources prematurely and going in too hard, when there are to come from? The worrying thing about this Budget is alternatives that are not being considered and which I that we have no detail, and I should like to see that shall turn to now. detail as rapidly as possible. The Chancellor and the Business Secretary regularly On tax credits, from April 2011, the second income cite the examples of Canada and Sweden when it comes threshold for the family element of child tax credit will to cutting deficits. However, I shall repeat until I am reduce from £50,000 to £40,000, and from April 2012, blue in the face that both countries acted against a the family element of child tax credit will be withdrawn backdrop of strong economic growth in their export immediately after the child element. Therefore, it is not markets. Unless I have missed something, that is not just higher-rate taxpayers who will be hit by the measures; available to countries in Europe, or the eurozone. working couples could also be hit. The combined salaries Other positive elements in the case of Canada and of two people on low to middle incomes will take them Sweden were currency devaluation and the active use of out of that. monetary policy. However, in the first case we have been Let me touch on one other aspect of detail—the cost there and done that already with sterling and, in the of housing benefit. Yesterday, the Chancellor used one second, hon. Members will know that our base rate is example to illustrate how the system is broken. Various already low. 351 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 352 Situation Situation Without those three little helpers—those three legs of but that is not all. The knock-on effect of the loss of the stool—we do not get the economic support or between 50,000 and 60,000 public sector jobs, in my growth that, under the plans being put forward by the constituency or in that of my hon. Friend the Member coalition Government, are essential if we are to mitigate for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), will be the loss of jobs in the worst excesses of the proposed cuts, beyond the Red the private sector and the loss of retail confidence. High Book. What we do get is all the pain of savage cuts, and street shops will go and the bottom will be knocked absolutely none of the gain. That will go on for years. out of our communities. Unemployment, and regional In fact—I hate to say this, but I am not alone in doing inequality, will grow and grow. so—we could well go backwards. If, in a year, we are Will Hutton points out: slipping backwards or limping along like some invalid “No country has ever volunteered such austerity. It is as tough at the bottom of an economic cycle, it will not be a package of retrenchment as the IMF imposed on Greece, a because people such as me failed to stand up and make country on the brink of bankruptcy.” the opposing case. It is important that someone does He noted that it took Sweden three times as long to that, alongside the economists outside the House. carry out the same level of cuts as the UK coalition Government want to impose. Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman The economist David Blanchflower noted that the effects for giving way, but I do not quite understand his logic. of the Budget will hit young people disproportionately, Two of the three legs of the stool to which he refers—the and that a double-dip recession is almost inevitable. A loose monetary policy and the devaluation—remain in double-dip recession is the spectre in the room—a place, to the benefit of British industry. It is only the Government Member urged us not to use that phrase third leg that is absent. but it would be remiss of me not to mention it. Of the forthcoming comprehensive spending review, David Huw Irranca-Davies: Indeed. Those two legs have Blanchflower says: been put in place already, but Sweden and Canada “If the young are first, I fully expect the disabled, the old and actively used both of them during the period of the cuts the weak to be the next target.” in order to make the cuts work. We can no longer do that, and we certainly do not have economic growth. There is an alternative way forward and I genuinely ask the Government to consider it. Will they also consider I put that to the Chancellor in this Chamber on two a new version of the Tobin tax, or Robin Hood tax—much occasions last week. On the first, he dealt with what I derided for many years? It is good to see a bank levy, said as a purely party-political matter, and swatted me but it could have been more ambitious. An open letter down. I understand: we do that in this place. On the to the Chancellor was signed by many Members, including second occasion, however, he did not have an answer, our Green party representative, the hon. Member for saying merely that this was a matter of judgment—and Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), Welsh MPs, cross-party that is what I am worried about. civic organisations, Save the Children Wales, Christian This is a very important issue. All our funding for Aid Wales, the secretary of the Public and Commercial health, education, social services, local authorities, transport, Services Union Wales, the National Association of and the attack on poverty is entirely dependent on one Probation Officers Wales and GMB Wales. It states: big macro-decision about how we go forward from this “We are pleased that you support a bank tax, but a truly recession. If the coalition Government are right, I say ambitious bank tax would mean those with the broadest shoulders good luck to them: they will get my praise in one, two, bear the brunt of the cost of the economic recovery, whereas a or five years. However, if they are wrong—and no one rise in Value Added Tax or premature cuts to public services on the coalition Benches is willing to accept that there would hit the poorest hardest.” is even a scintilla of a possibility that they could be That letter was genuinely cross-party. Some of the wrong—they must recognise that some people told them greatest advocates of that approach sat in the Liberal so in advance, and with good reason. Democrat camp on the Opposition Benches, and we The scenario may have been different in the 1980s, tried very hard to get a signature from a Welsh Liberal but we saw the effect that the approach adopted by the Democrat. It seems that the lines about premature cuts Government had then. We saw it in a very personal way, are now out of date. as friends who used to have jobs became unemployed. I say to the Government, please be right. We often They would knock on our doors asking to clean windows pull at the emotional heartstrings about the 1980s, but if or do other odd jobs just to make ends meet. We knew the Budget damages my communities as I think it will, what was happening, because our children went to the when there is an alternative, I shall certainly never same schools, and that is why I ask the Government forget or forgive, and nor will my communities, because please to accept that there is an alternative. we have seen it all before. I hope we are not seeing What do others say? Economic commentators such old-style 1980s Tory cuts. I hope that the measures that as Will Hutton, Paul Krugman and David Blanchflower the coalition Government say will mitigate the worst have all pointed out that the proposed cuts are about excesses for the lowest deciles and quintiles are well twice as extreme as those undertaken in Canada and judged, but I fear they are not. Why are the coalition threaten the recovery. The cuts seem to be motivated Government not even considering an alternative way not by a good examination of the alternatives, but by forward that minimises the risks to communities such ideology. as mine? I return to my opening comments to the hon. Member for Bournemouth East. The Financial Times suggests 4.9 pm that the emergency Budget will affect Wales—my home Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): It is patch—disproportionately. I know that. As many as a privilege to make my first speech in this Parliament 50,000 to 60,000 jobs could be lost in the public sector, and to do so from the Government Benches. May I 353 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 354 Situation Situation [Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] It was a huge tribute to the Chancellor that he said time after time yesterday that he wanted to bring the congratulate you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your bottom of this country nearer to the top, with some of election? It is great to see you in the Chair. I also the measures that underlie the Budget—for example, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate how he will deal with the state pension. Opposition and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) on a splendid maiden Members had 13 years to deal with the state pension. speech. He will obviously go on to represent his constituents More than 1 million pensioners had to go grovelling to with great poise and ability. the Government and to fill in huge forms to get pension I should like to pay tribute to my new right hon. credit. We have now promised that everyone will receive Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation a pension increase linked to earnings, prices or 2.5%, and Skills. Far from being the damascene conversion whichever is higher. That is real promise. Pensioners can that Opposition Members have mentioned, his ability now look forward to receiving at least a 2.5% increase to meet the top officials in the Treasury and the Bank of from 2011. England, study the evidence and conclude that he had been wrong in his assessment of how quickly we need to Angela Smith: I remind the hon. Gentleman that the deal with the deficit shows a man of huge stature, to be Labour Government legislated to make the link between honest. It is incredible that the shadow Chancellor, who pensions and earnings possible in 2008, and that we must have been in possession of the same advice, came were timetabled to introduce that in 2012. Will he to a completely different conclusion. confirm his Government’s intention to pay the winter fuel allowance next year at the same level as we paid it Today’s debate has been fairly predictable, and I am to our pensioners last year? certain that if Opposition Members were true to themselves they would say that they know perfectly well that, if Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I remind the hon. Lady that they had been elected—God forbid—as the Government the Labour party won the election in 1997. The Labour of this country, they would have had to take some Government had between 1997 and 2008 to do something pretty severe measures to deal with the deficit that we about that, but meanwhile more than 1 million pensioners have inherited. I pay tribute to the coalition Government, had to go through means-testing and fill out huge forms frankly, for being as brave as they have been. This is an to get pension credit. A considerable number did not austere and difficult Budget, and every person—rich or want to claim the credit, because they were too proud to poor—in the country will take pain. There is no getting do so, and they therefore lived in poverty. In the first away from that. few weeks of this new Government, pensioners have got a better deal than at any point under the 13 years of the Owen Smith: Does the hon. Gentleman think that the previous Labour Government. volte-face performed by the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills reflects perhaps more on his Gordon Birtwistle (Burnley) (LD): Does the hon. inconsistency and shifting values, as opposed to the Gentleman agree that the Labour Government’s 75p position adopted by Labour Front Benchers that has increase for pensioners a number of years ago, which been consistent either side of the election? was reduced to 50p after tax, was an insult not only to pensioners, but to the people of this country, which is Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I rather wish that I had not supposed to be one of the modern countries of the given way for that intervention, but, frankly, it says world? more about the hon. Gentleman than about the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, whom I Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I entirely agree with my hon. regard as having the greater stature because of what he Friend. Many pensioners have told me exactly that—that has done. it was an insult—so I hope that we can move away from I am amazed that the shadow Chancellor can conclude treating our elderly people in such a way. As I have said that severe action did not need to be taken to deal with before in the House—I remember raising this point our deficit. If we had not begun to take such action, the with the then right hon. Member for Sedgefield during international markets would have taken the lead. Spot Prime Minister’s questions—the way in which a society interest rates and bond rates would rise sharply. The treats its elderly people is a mark of that society’s cost of financing the huge deficit that we inherited civilisation. I hope that we will treat our elderly people would rise substantially.Business failures would accelerate. with respect. Unemployment would rise. Ultimately, by not taking In an excellent, sober speech, my hon. Friend the the action that we have taken, we would return to Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross recession. I completely take the opposite view from that (John Thurso) put his finger on an interesting yet of Opposition Members, who have said that we do not under-mentioned aspect of our economic problems. It need to deal with deficit in the way we have now done. is demonstrated by the table on page 7 of the Red Book, Those siren voices of the Opposition would have led which shows that private debt has doubled in the past us into greater trouble than we are in now. What we see 13 years. It is, of course, up to members of households from the Opposition is a legacy where the gap between to make their personal decisions, but it is also up to the the rich and the poor grew in their 13 years in government. Government of the day to regulate the totality of private I would be bitterly disappointed if the Government’s debt. The level of private debt has become unsustainable, actions do not lead to the economy being immeasurably something on which I often chased the right hon. Member stronger in five years’ time. We can then start to reduce for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) in Budget that gap and put money into poor communities, exactly debates. As the Red Book shows, the savings ratio was as the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) lower by the end of the Labour Government than at any wants us to do, so that we can start to benefit some of time since the 1950s. It is incumbent on any Government the poorest people in society. of the day not only to encourage savings, but to ensure 355 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 356 Situation Situation that the savings culture exists in a stable regime in which Manufacturing accounts for more than half of our inflation is not completely out of control. If we did not country’s exports. Labour Members will not like the take the action outlined in the Budget, interest rates figures I give, but they are absolutely true. In 1997, would rise, thus putting inflationary pressure on the manufacturing employed 4.19 million people, but by economy. December 2009, under Labour’s stewardship, that number had fallen to only 2.592 million. In other words, there Mark Durkan: Given the hon. Gentleman’s concern had been a significant decline in the number of people to ensure that the Government always encourage a employed in the manufacturing sector. That happened strong savings culture, what does he think will be the despite the value of sterling falling 24% between July impact of removing child trust funds and abandoning 2007 and the present day. Perhaps one of the most the savings gateway? devastating of figures pertaining to the period of Labour stewardship is on our trade deficit in goods, which has Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: No Government would willingly increased from £3.1 billion to more than £21 billion. take such action, as my hon. Friend the Member for If Labour Members want to know the reason why we Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross said. My right had our longest and deepest recession of our post-war hon. Friend the Chancellor had to set out a host of history, it is that the Labour Government failed to tough choices yesterday, but I do not think that the support sectors of our economy that provide sustainable Budget was ideological. The hon. Gentleman has to be economic growth. If we are to exit the grips of recession, honest with himself when he thinks about ways to deal cushion the impact of austerity and have a sustainable with the deficit. We should not underestimate the scale future, exporters will be the engine room and will need of the problem. This year’s public sector net borrowing to be given priority in the Chancellor’s thoughts and, requirement of £149 billion is almost the equivalent of indeed, across all Departments. the combined budget for health and education. The scale of the deficit explains why my right hon. Friend In his Budget statement, the Chancellor said that the Chancellor had to make really difficult and brave departmental budgets will be set out in the spending decisions, but by taking such action now, I hope that we review later this year—quite rightly, he set a date for will be able to return to a situation in which we can start that of 20 October—with an average real reduction for to help some of the poorest and most vulnerable people unprotected Departments of 20%. Let me say to my in our society, which is what any responsible Government right hon. Friend the Chancellor and my hon. Friend ought to be about. the Economic Secretary, who is on the Treasury Bench, We will get out of this mess by promoting growth in that UKTI—our trade promotion body—is a rare thing: the private sector and rebalancing our economy. We it is one of the few parts of Government that actually need to get Britain innovating and making things, and makes this country money. To meet the challenges of to sell our goods and services to the rest of the world. the future, to provide adequate support for our exporters All the calculations in the Budget are predicated on a and to attract FDI into this country, its budget must be rate of growth, and it is the private sector that will protected, so that it can continue to support private deliver that growth. By taking the right measures in the sector growth and job creation in the UK. Budget and concentrating on the right things, we might We must also recognise that real reforms are needed be able to exceed the growth targets set out by my right to how we support our exporters and attract FDI to hon. Friend the Chancellor yesterday. Labour Chancellors adapt to an ever-changing global marketplace. Those have been pretty bad at forecasting growth rates. My changes cannot be made without the correct budgetary right hon. Friend, in line with the Office for Budget support for UKTI, but the rewards for successful Responsibility, has given very prudent forecasts of growth implementation are there. We appreciate the opportunities rates. I sincerely hope that we will be able to exceed presented to us by having Europe on our doorstep and those forecasts. through our close relationship with north America. Until the election, I served as the shadow Minister Currently, 70% of our exports go to the traditional for international trade and development, and I know developed markets of north America and the EU, but that the actions of the Chancellor in supporting exporters the financial support available for firms seeking to will be critical to how our country moves forward in the export to the wider and increasingly accessible world coming months and years. After all, in the years from beyond that must be maintained, because estimates 1996 to 2004, firms that were new to exporting achieved, suggest that, by 2020, the EU and USA share of global on average, a 34% increase in productivity in their year gross domestic product will have declined to less than of entry—the very fact of their going into exporting 40%. As was correctly identified—I tried to intervene made them increase their productivity—and 60% of the on the shadow Chancellor—we have turbulence in our UK’s productivity growth was attributable to exporting European markets and EU growth is expected to be firms. It is therefore welcome that the Chancellor mentioned sluggish for some time. That is why it is important that exports twice in his speech yesterday. we pay due attention to rapidly expanding global markets UK Trade & Investment is the Government’s arm elsewhere, which cost proportionately more to service that encourages exports and foreign direct investment. than the easier markets of Europe and north America. Its chief executive, Andrew Cahn, worked under seven We must be proactive, not reactive. British firms must different Trade Ministers in the previous Government. I be backed to head for the second-tier cities in larger hope that we will not have that revolving door in the markets such as India and China. They must also look present Government and that we will have consistency for unrealised potential in other countries first, before of Ministers, who will be able to look at our exports our competitors have won all the contracts. I looked at problem and achieve considerable improvement. In the that problem around the world, and I found country years of Labour Government, UKTI’s budget was cut after country where there was huge potential. The British consistently. were welcomed, our business men went out there and 357 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 358 Situation Situation [Geoffrey Clifton-Brown] We must try to support those sectors that the UK is good at, and see how we can improve their export expressed interest, but somehow it was the Japanese, the structure. I say this with hesitation at the moment, but Germans, the Americans and the Chinese who popped our oil sector was respected throughout the world. Our in and got the contracts. We must provide better support pharmaceuticals, defence and financial services sectors for our companies. were respected throughout the world, too, and in line We must benchmark the performance of UKTI against with Sir James Dyson’s recommendations, we must aim the best of other countries, so that our trade efforts to become the No.1 high-tech exporter in Europe. We match or exceed those of our competitors. With our will do that by concentrating on the new, high-growth overseas network of embassies, we have a fantastic market sectors, such as those involving low-carbon and platform for developing British business, and we cannot green technologies. Those are the industries of the afford to let departmental cuts affect their work. We future, and we ought to concentrate on them. We must need a widely respected senior figure—a FTSE ex-chairman also ensure that our universities and their basic research —to go out banging the drum for the UK, selling the are world-beating, and that companies have the incentive country around the world, and consistently to visit to develop those world-beating ideas into products and those markets to build up contracts. services that we can sell in greater and greater quantities throughout the world. Nationally, we must concentrate our efforts away from the regional structure introduced by the previous Government. What nonsense that was. Different regional Angela Smith: I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman assemblies had offices in the same city, such as Shanghai says about the potential of our export and manufacturing or Mumbai, all competing with one another for the sectors, but does he support nuclear power, nuclear same business. What a waste of taxpayers’ money, and energy and the supply of components to the nuclear what confusion it caused to those countries in which energy industry as one of those sectors that are important they were located. for our future?

Claire Perry: I am interested in my hon. Friend’s Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am very grateful for that important proposal for a roving ambassador for British intervention. I have always been a supporter of nuclear business. Does he agree that there might be potential to power, and I am one of the very few Members who have retread Sir Digby Jones in that role, particularly as he been to Chernobyl and survived, so I can see what goes said yesterday after the Budget: wrong in the nuclear sector. However, with modern technology—I say this carefully—I can see that the “I think that sign has gone up around the world saying that Britain is serious about sorting out its economic mess”? nuclear sector has an important role to play in the range and mix of our power generation. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I am grateful to my hon. The Labour Government left us with another really Friend. I know that she was upbraided by Mr Deputy dire legacy, however, because if we do not introduce Speaker a little while ago—it takes a long time to sort nuclear power generation to this country I do not see out parliamentary language, and references to “you” how we can keep the lights going in the next 20 years— and the “hon. Gentleman”. She is absolutely right. I [Interruption.] The Liberal Democrats had different was modelling my remarks exactly on Digby Jones, who views, but they have looked at the problem and signed did a huge amount of work for this country, and spent up to a nuclear power programme, and I congratulate an enormous amount of time travelling around the them on that, because it is the right thing to do. We in world. He had great, in-depth knowledge of huge sections this House should not come up with ideological dogma; of industry, having served as chairman of the CBI. We we should all look at the facts and see what is the need to appoint someone of that calibre, who has the correct thing to do, which is—[Interruption.] It is all time, energy and availability to be able to do precisely very well the hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge that job. (Angela Smith) pointing at the Liberal Democrats, but we in the Conservative party have had to swallow things As I said, the notion that RDAs should have offices that we do not like. We have looked at the facts and seen around the world competing with one another led to a the correct thing to do. Therefore, I support nuclear huge dilution of the UK brand. It caused confusion in power. the country in which they were located, and it did not serve our interests of attracting foreign direct investment to this country. I have no doubt that Ministers will John Thurso: My hon. Friend will know of my long-term abolish that structure rapidly, thereby producing much support for nuclear power, which I expressed often in better results. I welcome the proposals for local enterprise the House in previous Parliaments. However, the critical partnerships, which are a huge step forward. We can thing is to be in favour not of nuclear power, but of a help the private sector by not having a stratified structure proper engineering and scientific-based assessment of of RDAs across the country. We need different structures how to ensure the lowest carbon energy, and if that in different parts of the country, to deal with the problems leads us to nuclear, that is the correct answer. in each area. We must concentrate Government advice on business sectors, rather than on regions. It was Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: As always, my hon. Friend’s complete nonsense that the Government’s car adviser wise words are correct. Nuclear power is not only an was based in the north-east, unable to give advice to car efficient way of generating energy, but a clean way. We manufacturers and component suppliers in Birmingham. have to use the very latest technology to deal with the We must concentrate on sectors, so that the automotive nuclear waste that is produced, but I am absolutely sector, for example, has a proper advice team in the certain that if we adopt an open mind and let our Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. scientists get to work, we will find better and better 359 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 360 Situation Situation ways of dealing with the waste that nuclear power this Government will lead us out of recession and that stations produce. I welcome my hon. Friend’s support we will have a very much stronger economy in four or on that. five years. I look forward to holding the hon. Member Innovation and exports are just beginning to return, for Ogmore to his word. When we have a stronger and I am sure that hon. Members from all parts, if they economy, and when we start helping the most vulnerable have listened to businesses in their constituencies, will in our society, I expect an apology from him. have had that experience. I have a wonderful firm in my constituency, a small FTSE company called Renishaw. 4.37 pm It is the world-beater in measuring technology— metrology—but unfortunately it had to lay off several Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): hundred people during the worst of the recession. I am May I join those who have congratulated you on your pleased to report to the House, however, that in the past election, Madam Deputy Speaker? If I may give the month or so it has begun to re-employ people. That is House an update on the score in the England match, good news, because we must all work hard on measures it is still 1-0. I think it is no coincidence that I am with regard to how we employ the maximum number of surrounded by an unusually large number of Welsh and people in this country. There is nothing worse than Scottish colleagues. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, people who want to work but are unemployed—and for allowing me to speak in this important Budget unemployed through no fault of their own. We should debate—the most important in more than 30 years. concentrate on the terrible figures for 16 to 25-year-olds Thirty years ago, in 1979, I was a young slip of a not in education, employment or training—the so-called thing—only 17 or 18 years old—and I remember what I NEETs—who are without jobs at the moment, because saw in the following years. I am not going to have a go we have inherited a shocking waste of young talent. at the record of the previous Tory Government, so those on the Government Benches can settle down. In Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP): In areas such as South Yorkshire and northern Lincolnshire, fact, in the 1980s youth unemployment was far higher we saw huge devastation of our economies. Those of us than it is now. I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern who know the Don Valley—I know that the Economic that youth unemployment is a major challenge, but Secretary knows it very well—from its origins up in the when I look around my own constituency at people who north of Sheffield and in Barnsley through to Doncaster have never worked, they are almost all people who will remember the devastation of that lunar landscape: found themselves as young unemployed people 20 or that is the only term that could have been used at one 25 years ago. That is the real problem, and words are point to describe the lower Don Valley. We saw the not enough—we need to find solutions. flattening of Hatfield, where now we have the Meadowhall shopping centre, and the devastation—as in the valleys Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: I think, without knowing the of Wales—caused to other South Yorkshire valleys hon. Lady’s constituency backwards, that there are such as the Dearne valley. Where there were the pits of particular factors in her part of the United Kingdom as Manvers, Wath and Cortonwood, we now have a Morrisons to why there was that rise in youth unemployment. We supermarket and a retail centre. can argue about what happened 20, 30 or 40 years ago, I well remember all that. I remember, too, the work but that is almost irrelevant. I am concerned about what that we have done since then to try to repair the damage. the situation is today and what my right hon. and hon. We have tried to diversify our economies in the north of Friends are going to do to deal with it, and I think that England—in places such as South Yorkshire and northern they have got some interesting and innovative ideas . Lincolnshire. To some extent we have succeeded. We I have another example of a small company. It exports have biosciences, sport and leisure, and retail—and we 300 sidecars a year to the Japanese market. We have still have advanced manufacturing. heard about how difficult the Japanese market is. At our We were making progress, albeit very slowly, on reducing very best, our small and medium-sized, and even our the gap in economic growth and prosperity between large companies, are very innovative and very good at London and the south-east and places such as Yorkshire getting out there and exporting into some of the most and the Humber, but what is happening now poses a difficult markets in the world. They just need a little new threat to our economy in the north. If we suffer more support, and then we can get more businesses significant damage yet again because of a return to exporting to the rest of the world. Chatham House recession, the fear is that that damage will be permanent recently reported that and irreparable, and that we will be unable to move “a combination of services and high end manufacturing places forward as we had previously hoped without even more Britain in a strong position to meet the needs of the world’s funding—significant funding—from Government and emerging economies in ways that will enable it to sustain its Europe. That is the context to today’s debate. I agree strong comparative advantage”. with my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw It is the small and medium-sized firms that will lead us Irranca-Davies) that the impact of the Budget on individuals out of recession. It is the private sector that will compensate and communities must be at the forefront of our minds. for the jobs that are lost in the public sector. It is the Unfortunately, the Budget is a wasted opportunity to private sector to which we must give the right climate help the British economy on the road to recovery. and right environment, and then it will thrive. Instead of investment and the promise of future jobs, We have not only the right fiscal environment, but the we have a Budget of cuts for the poorest and regressive right environment for dealing with bureaucracy and tax increases—a Budget that risks our future. The race reducing the amount of burdens that Government place to austerity that the Government seem determined to on the private sector. We must give it the right incentive follow belongs to a lesser-known branch of economics to export and the right tools to do the job. I believe that called ignorance economics, as Leslie Budd of the Open 361 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 362 Situation Situation [Angela Smith] the global economy, it was the neo-liberal austerity budgets that followed that led to a vicious decline in university calls it. As he correctly points out, although international economic activity, leading to protectionism, it is sensible to cut waste, the slashing of spending can a collapse in world trade and depression. My fear—it is do much more harm than good. That is what the shared, I think, by every Opposition Member—is that Budget, with its massive cuts to public spending, that is exactly where we will go. We have seen austerity will do. measures introduced not just by the UK, but by Germany, Unprotected Departments could have real-terms cuts Greece, Italy and Spain. The House ought to think of 25% over the next four years. The key question is carefully before going down that path. It was only after this: how many nurses, police officers, teachers and the new deal in America that growth started to return in other civil servants will be thrown on to the scrap heap the 1930s. Sadly, Government Members do not seem in the years and months to come? How fair is it that one able to learn the lessons of that period in our history. of the significant cuts in the local government budget The current rhetoric from Government Members is, will be in the area-based grant? Sheffield Hallam is one “Look at what Canada did!” It has been mentioned of the richest constituencies in the country, and Sheffield already by Labour Members that Canada’s actions in Brightside one of the poorest. The gap has decreased in the 1990s to wipe out its sovereign debt were taken in a the past 13 years, but there is still a 14-year difference in completely different context. Canada was able to reduce life expectancy between those constituencies. The abolition interest rates quickly, and had a route for its exports in a of the area-based grant will hit Brightside, but it will booming US economy, because the value of the Canadian not hit Hallam in any way at all. How can that be fair? dollar was allowed to fall. Interestingly, Canada once The pupil premium has been promised, but we are again has a large public debt and is not considering the hearing that it will be based on the abolition of additional reckless action that the Government are pursuing. Those educational needs funding and vulnerable children’s options are not sensible or credible in the current situation. grants. If we roll that funding up into a pupil premium, Let us also bury the myth about Greece. The UK is will it be distributed fairly, or will more of it go to the not in the same position as Greece. In 300 years of south of England at the expense of the north? national debt, the UK has never defaulted on its sovereign Although I welcome, and offer my support for, the debt. The UK’s debt has a long time to run, with an increase in personal allowances from next April, it will average of 14 years to maturity—twice as long as most be more than wiped out by the regressive increase in other European countries—which means that the UK VAT to 20% from January next year. There is no rise in needs to finance much less of its debt in any given year the personal allowances for over-65s, which will disappoint and, therefore, is much less sensitive to rising interest many of my older constituents—indeed, I received an rates. e-mail on that subject just this morning. That gives the We hear from the Liberal Democrats that fairness is lie to the argument that the Budget is all about fairness. important, and yet they now say that it is right that Although the confirmation of Labour’s policy of linking public sector workers should see real cuts in wages, the state pension to average earnings is welcome—it while capital gains tax rises by only 10% for higher rate builds on policies developed by the Labour Government— taxpayers. They also say now that VAT should rise to not increasing the personal allowance for pensioners in 20%, which they once said would be totally unfair on line with those for everyone else is just wrong. the poor. The Liberal Democrat way now is that it is It is obvious that the Prime Minister’s words before right to cut benefits by £11 billion for the poorest in our the election—never mind the Deputy Prime Minister’s society. Where is the fairness in that? Members can use words—that he had no plans for an increase in VAT as many words as they like and whatever sophistry they were as worthless as similar words spoken back in 1979. like, but they will not persuade the British people of the I remember very clearly that in 1979 the Conservatives credibility of their position if they say one thing one said they would not double VAT. The first thing they minute, and another thing the next, just because they did on coming into office was increasing VAT from 8% have taken the reins of power. to 15%. That was not quite double, but it might as well Where is the fairness in freezing child benefit for the have been. next three years—a benefit that is often the only one paid directly to women and mothers? When that is When there is a need to maintain to demand in the coupled with the reduction in tax credits, many of my economy, the Budget risks squeezing demand and creating constituents will see that this is not a fair Budget. It is a a double-dip recession, which could be worse than regressive Budget that I believe will get the reception is the one that we recently experienced. Let us get rid of deserves. the myth that the public sector is bad and that only the private sector can get the economy growing again. The Gordon Birtwistle: Does the hon. Lady agree that if balance has to be right, as we in south Yorkshire know the interest payments on our existing loans, which are better than others; we know it all too well. However, the approaching £40 billion a year, were half that amount, two sectors are interlinked. Private companies benefit we would not be in our present situation, and we would from Government investment, which is why we brought be able to spend the money on the things that she is now forward the capital projects—to keep the economy moving suggesting? and to keep construction workers in work. Ensuring that the private sector works with the public sector can Angela Smith: As I think I said earlier, equating the give us growth. national economy to a household budget has already Let us also demolish the myth that only by putting been declared by many respected economists to be forward austerity measures will we see growth in the ignorance economics. It has been discredited by respected economy. The lessons of the 1930s show that not to be economists throughout the world, including economists true. Although the 1929 crash dealt a massive blow to of the centre right in the United States who recognise 363 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 364 Situation Situation the lessons of the 1930s and recognise that we need As my right hon. Friend the Member for South investment and public spending to bring back growth Shields (David Miliband) said last week on hearing the and jobs. announcements, the champagne corks will indeed be However, the question is whether the Budget is needed. popping in Japan and South Korea. The investment was According to the new body set up by the Government—the not, as the Deputy Prime Minister would have us believe, Office for Budget Responsibility, which I think we all set up in the dying days of the previous Government. I support—the economy is in growth. OBR statements would testify anywhere, in any court in the land, that make it clear that the previous Government’s spending those negotiations had been going on for more than two plans were credible and would have reduced the deficit and a half years, and they went through the most gradually, over a four-year period. I believe, as I think rigorous scrutiny possible. The scheme would not only everyone on the Labour Benches believes, that that was have given value for money; it would have been of a sensible course forward. Therefore, it has to be said major strategic importance to the economic future of that the reason why the Government are pursuing this advanced manufacturing in the UK. Again as my right path is ideological dogma. They are cutting for the sake hon. Friend said, pulling the plug on that loan is a piece of cutting, in an ideological drive towards the small of gratuitous economic vandalism—but then again, state. The language of the TaxPayers Alliance is alive what should one expect from a Tory party that almost and well in the corridors of power, but it is cloaked in completely destroyed steel making in South Yorkshire the language of “Needs must”. in the 1980s? The prospect of a race to austerity is so worrying that We heard a lot in the previous speech, by the hon. President Obama’s Administration in the US have felt it Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), necessary to write to the leaders of the G20 countries about the importance to the economy of an export-led urging them to continue with the economic stimulus— recovery. I completely agree with what he said, so why something with which, as I have mentioned, many did his Government not put the money into Sheffield economists agree. Although the help for new start-up Forgemasters, as that was all about exports, the future companies in the regions and the creation of regional of UK manufacturing and the rebalancing of the UK development funds are welcome, those measures will be economy? They turned down the chance to help this more than offset by the run-down of the regional economy to recover. They failed the challenge on grounds development agencies, such as Yorkshire Forward, and of—[Interruption.] Well, tell me what the grounds were— the loss of no doubt thousands of public sector jobs. It ideology, dogma, pressure from Sheffield Forgemasters’ has been said today in the Financial Times, but let me competitors to say no? We would like to hear about them. put it on the record, that the overall impact of the If this is an example of the Government’s investment Budget, contrary to statements made yesterday, will be strategy, we should all be worried. For a relatively small a 60% reduction in capital investment by the Government loan that carried a commercial rate of interest, the UK by 2016. would have had a company capable of being at the Let us not think for a minute that this is a Budget for forefront of the supply chain for the nuclear power investment. The Government have fallen at the first industry. It would have created jobs not only in South hurdle on that idea. With the £80 million loan to Yorkshire, but throughout the country. It would have Sheffield Forgemasters, they had the chance to show led to high-value exports and secured the future of that they were interested in investing in growth and high-value steelmaking in the UK. Crucially, I know exports, in state-of-the-art technologies and in UK from working with Corus, Forgemasters and Fox Wire manufacturing. However, they chose not to do that. in my constituency how important it is for UK steel to The loan would have earned a 3.5% interest rate, and stay ahead of the game when it comes to skills and would have involved Westinghouse taking a stake in the advanced technologies. We cannot compete with China company and giving a guarantee of forward orders. It and the rest of the Asian economy on low-value steel would also have transformed Forgemasters into a major casting and steel forging, yet we are giving that advantage player in the nuclear castings sector. The loan was to our foreign competitors. secured against the company and would have been part It is also of interest to note that on the day the plug of a total package worth around £140 million, with was pulled on the Forgemasters loan, the Department £80 million from the Government on a loan basis. for Business, Innovation and Skills confirmed the building That would have meant £140 million for Sheffield of a research ship for £75 million. There is nothing and UK manufacturing, allowing for the purchase of a wrong with that investment, and I will support it, but 15,000-tonne press capable of making the pressure vessels the ship will be built in Spain because there are no at the centre of a nuclear power plant. To put things longer any British yards capable of building it. The into perspective, the only other company in the world Tory Government of the 1980s decided that investment currently making forgings of a sufficient size for the in shipbuilding was a waste of resources. international market is Japan Steel Works, which has We should add to all this the fact that this Government recently tripled its capacity in order to make 10 pressure have pulled the future jobs fund and slashed university vessels a year. However, 11 new nuclear power stations places by 10,000. The hon. Member for Bournemouth were commissioned around the world last year, and the East (Mr Ellwood) mentioned earlier that he had a pace is accelerating, with 55 reactors in planning at the relatively elderly constituency. Well, I have a lot of young end of 2009 and more than 30 licence applications people in my constituency, and they are worried about under active discussion in the US. Not only that, but whether they will get the places they are looking for in with only one company in South Korea and two companies the university system over the next five years or so. in China now intending to enter the business of making such forgings, any future project for building new nuclear David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): power stations in the UK will have to import pressure We are having a history lesson in here, but I think you vessels. would agree with me that every time there have been 365 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 366 Situation Situation [David Morris] lively. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) on an cuts like those in yesterday’s Budget, they have always excellent, effective maiden speech, and I look forward been on the back of a Labour Government who have to hearing more from him in the future. I also congratulate brought the country to its knees. I originate from an my hon. Friends the Members for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey area similar to your constituency, and I lived in a Clifton-Brown) and for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) community that was depleted by the miners’ strike. I on constructive, thoughtful and progressive speeches, saw exactly what it did to my community, but what has which addressed the problems facing our country. to be addressed here is the fact that that was then, but I am disappointed by the hon. Member for Penistone this is now. This country is on its knees as a result of the and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and some of her Labour Administration. You are in complete denial colleagues who seem to think that there is a right-wing that this has happened. It has taken a coalition Government ideological agenda. The Budget has a practical, realistic with a Conservative Prime Minister to try to put some approach, from a coalition Government who are determined equilibrium back into the country and into the politics to get our country out of the economic mess in which of this House. the Labour Government left us. We will not forget that, Angela Smith rose— and we will take no lessons from them about the situation in which we find ourselves. Many of us would prefer not Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I want to be helpful to have to take some of the measures in the Budget, but to the Chamber by explaining that when hon. Members the 13 wasted years under Labour have resulted in a make their contributions, they address the Chair. When real mess. hon. Members say “you”, they mean the occupant of I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Ogmore Chair—and according to parliamentary convention, (Huw Irranca-Davies) is no longer in his place, because the Chair should not be blamed for everything. Also, his was a constructive and passionate speech. I say to interventions should be brief. him and to Labour Members, including those on the Angela Smith: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Front Bench, that most of us came into politics to All that I would say about the hon. Gentleman’s intervention improve the condition of everybody in society, not just is that the recession was caused by the collapse of the one section of it. We are determined to look after the global economy, and principally by the bankers. If the disadvantaged and to help the less well-off, the disabled, hon. Gentleman would like to come and have a look at pensioners and those in real need, but to do that we the ex-mining and ex-steelworking areas of my constituency, must have a strong economy and money to invest in I could show him how much progress was being made in such services. It is regrettable that the Labour party repairing the damage and how much that repair is now destroyed our economy and the opportunities for many at risk because of the policies pursued by this Government. people. I agree with the comment that most Labour I fear the worst for the young of our country. The Members who have spoken seem to be in denial about 1980s saw the creation of a lost generation, and we are the problems that they have created and the situation in still feeling the effects. I believe this coalition will create which we find ourselves. They keep on with the mantra, yet another lost generation. I fear for the poor, the sick, “It is a world situation” and so on. Of course, there is a the unemployed, the elderly and the hard-working public world recession, but it was made worse by the incompetence sector. Now we are getting to know just what the “big of the Labour Government and their failure to deal society” is all about. It is about an ideological drive with the issues early enough and to take the necessary towards a US-style small state; it is about people being measures to ensure that we could weather the storm. left on their own; it is about the poor and the disadvantaged The consequences are a disaster for the whole country. being left to help themselves; it is a return to the days we History lessons will not do when we have had 13 wasted thought had been left far behind when the previous years. Tory Government left office. The only surprise is that My right hon. Friend the Business Secretary made a this time they are being aided and abetted by the Lib progressive, rational and measured speech and explained Dems. That just goes to show that, as we have always to us all his thinking and how he has come to his suspected in South Yorkshire, the Lib Dems are yellow decisions. We value that, because he has looked at the Tories at heart. facts and figures and made a reasonable judgment Increasingly, when I look at the Lib Dems in government, accordingly. I also congratulate my right hon. Friend I am reminded of George Orwell’s “Animal Farm”. The the Chancellor on a positive and constructive Budget in pigs, led by Napoleon, campaign for an overthrow of very difficult times. It was positive in its aims and the old politics on the farm. Gradually, however, the objectives, based on fairness and reasonableness, and in pigs morph into the humans they once despised, and its twin approach of dealing with the debt problems and their slogan of “Four legs good, two legs bad” changes planning for the future. to “Four legs good, two legs better”. In Sheffield, we are Having been a Member of the previous Parliament, all aware that our Napoleon has started walking on two I also welcome the Chancellor’s candour, openness and legs. The Deputy Prime Minister is a Tory in all but clarity about the situation in which the country finds name, and we fear the consequences of his betrayal for itself. How different this was from Budget statements our economy, both regionally and nationally. He should under the last Government. Those were all spin and hang his head in shame. propaganda, and Members had to leave the Chamber and read all the minutiae in the small print to find out 5pm what they really meant. Yesterday the Chancellor of the Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): Exchequer was open and frank, telling the people about May I welcome you to the Chair, Madam Deputy the problems and what needed to be done about them. Speaker? I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute He did not conceal the facts in the small print or hide to this vital debate, which has been interesting and them away in other paperwork. 367 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 368 Situation Situation After 13 years of Labour government, our economy Time last week. Although some RDAs have done a has been shattered by mismanagement. We have a huge good job, others have wasted money in their bureaucratic public debt and great unfairness in the tax system, and way. We have heard about extravagances and expenses businesses, particularly small businesses, feel battered that have been in no way connected with the job that and bruised. We really do need a new approach and a those people should have been doing, involving new direction. Yes, the Budget is tough and austere, but entertainment, offices abroad, novelty items or taxis, it is also necessary and fair, and it is unfortunately which were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member unavoidable because of the position in which we find for The Cotswolds. That profligacy is another Labour ourselves. We need a decisive breach with the past so legacy that I am pleased to see the new coalition that we can build facilities and services for the less Government will take on. advantaged and the most disadvantaged, such as those The managing director of a lighting business in my who are sick and will need more help in the future. constituency advised me that he thought the support I want to concentrate on enterprise, pensions and for small businesses during the recession was training. As a Conservative, I believe passionately in “neither adequate nor well advertised.” lower taxation, and I am pleased that my right hon. He also said that Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer also aspires to achieve that goal—when the time is right. When the “there was nothing for a small business in our position or if there was, we didn’t find out about it.” time is not right, we must increase taxation, however hard that may be, in order to balance the books. I know His business also had problems with the publicly subsidised that my constituents will appreciate my right hon. Friend’s banks. Higher banking costs were imposed on it, leading approach, because after 13 years of Labour they feel to its having to reduce staff to meet the cost of the that they have been over-taxed and over-regulated, and charges. That is not the way to get a successful business that there has been too much bureaucracy and red tape developing and going forward. In addition to the problems and not enough support for their business activities. in getting Government support and dealing with an over-complicated tax system, that managing director My constituents have experienced the problems of experienced a great deal more red tape and regulation, increasing unemployment and economic inactivity, and which in turn increased costs. That was a legacy of the most of them feel that bureaucracy and taxation have last Labour Government: more regulation, more red been excessive. Regrettably, those problems must be tape and more costs. addressed with vim and vigour. Local business men tell I also received representations from a car manufacturing me that central Government support was inadequate firm in my constituency. Its managing director thought during the recession, and that publicly owned banks the previous Government did a good job with its advertising. were unhelpful when they applied for credit or assistance. However, when it came to applying for assistance, his They were cast adrift by a Government who said wonderful company found that support was not available. That is a things in the House, but did not follow them up with terrible legacy. He said the investment company appointed real measures to help small businesses make the wealth to manage the capital for enterprise fund for the on which our country depends. It was clear that action Government was interested only in venture capital by the new Government was urgently required to deal parameters such as high rates of return. The company with that on all fronts. also alleged that it did not receive support from its The Government have already cut £6 billion of spending bank. In fact, it suffered increased charges from very because we cannot afford it. If we are to create jobs and early in 2009. growth, it is vital that we help the small and medium-sized Both those businesses will benefit from the measures businesses that are at the heart of our economy. We announced in the Budget. The reduction in corporation need to show that Britain is open for business, and tax will mean they have more money of their own to attract firms into the United Kingdom. We need reforms invest in their business, and either to take on new staff of tax and regulation to make it less costly and bureaucratic or extend the working of current staff. The Budget will to run or start a business. We need to shift the balance bring benefit to small businesses in particular. They will in our economy back towards private enterprise, rather welcome the lowest ever rate of corporation tax, which than the public sector dependency that we saw during will fall from 28% to 24% during this Parliament. The those 13 years of Labour government. tax rate reduction for small companies from 21% to I agree with the hon. Member for Penistone and 20% will also be welcomed, and the extension of the Stocksbridge that the public sector has a vital role to enterprise guarantee scheme will provide a real boost play, and that it can create wealth and opportunities. for small businesses struggling to get credit. Most wealth, however, is created by the small and The Budget therefore contains a lot that is positive, medium-sized businesses which pay the tax and allow contrary to what was suggested from the Opposition us to spend the money that we need to spend on our Benches, where all was doom and gloom. There is vital public services. I am amazed at the increase in enthusiasm for enterprise to get things moving, which is public sector pay and pensions over the past decade. We very important for the future of the country, because we would surely expect the Prime Minister to have a higher must get the debt down and the public finances under salary than anyone else in the public sector, and when control before we can have economic growth. We must we see that people at the BBC and in some local never forget that high levels of debt put an unfair authorities are being paid considerably more by the burden on future generations. Our role is to look after taxpayer for doing a less demanding job, we have to ask the future and make sure that our children and what has gone wrong. grandchildren are not in hock to debt because we have We also need to deal with the problem of waste. The failed to manage the national finances. This emergency hon. Lady mentioned regional development agencies, Budget will go a long way to rectifying the situation for an issue that I raised with the Prime Minister at Question the future. 369 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 370 Situation Situation [Mr David Evennett] but in the past 13 years, because of the policies of the last Prime Minister, including when he was the Chancellor Action to stop Labour’s job tax by increasing the of the Exchequer, Labour managed to push more people threshold for employers’ national insurance contributions into tax than ever before—people on low incomes who by £21 a week will also be positive. As a result, the should never have been paying the level of tax they number of employees for whom employers pay no were. Five or six weeks into office, this Government are national insurance will rise by 650,000. That is another already taking action in the Budget to deal with the real, positive move to endeavour to ensure that we get awful situation of people on low incomes having to ourselves out of the appalling mess we find ourselves in. pay tax. The second issue I want to raise is pensions and pensioners. I am delighted that the earnings link is to be Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: My hon. Friend is making restored after 30 years. We have to admit that sometimes an impassioned and thoughtful contribution. There the Conservatives made mistakes in government, and it was no more cruel example of what he has just said was a Conservative Government who made the mistake than the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and of breaking the link. [Interruption.] It is no good the Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) abolishing the 10p tax rate, hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) because that put so many poor people into paying not laughing and smiling, because the Labour Government only a low rate of tax, but quite a high rate of tax, on had 13 years to do something about that, but they did relatively low earnings. In contrast, my right hon. Friend not do a thing. They sat on their hands and made nice the Chancellor has taken a significant number of people noises, but action speaks louder than words. This coalition out of the tax net altogether with this Budget. Government have already taken more action on pensioners than the previous Labour Government did in 13 years. Mr Evennett: That point is absolutely spot on. The Opposition’s crocodile tears on these issues are lamentable, Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): Will my because they did not do anything in government. They hon. Friend remind the House that when we broke the took away the 10p rate, as my hon. Friend has said, and link in 1980 we had an inherited situation of huge they pushed people on very low incomes into paying tax debt—an economic basket case—as a result of a Labour when that was unfair. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor Government spending beyond their means. Does he made it quite clear in yesterday’s Budget that fairness think that that sounds familiar? was the underlying key. It was about making sure that everyone pays a fair amount. Those on high incomes Mr Evennett: Exactly. My hon. Friend makes a good will pay more and those on low incomes will pay point. It is history repeating, is it not? I am sure that considerably less. Families, low earners and pensioners pensioners in my constituency and across the country have to be a top priority. will be pleased by the triple lock, whereby the basic state In opposition, I was the shadow spokesman on further pension will rise by whichever is the higher out of education and skills, and I believe that training and earnings, prices measured by consumer price inflation skills were one of the Labour Government’s greatest or 2.5%. That is good news. One would not believe on failings. Our society needs a well-trained work force listening to the Opposition that there was any good who can adapt and take on board challenges, such as news at all in the Budget, but there is. We will never have those facing small businesses, to make sure that they pensioners getting a meagre increase of 75p on the basic can get employment and worthwhile involvement in pension, as happened one year under Labour. That was order to make something of their lives. One of Labour’s an insult and the pensioners knew it. We will not allow biggest failings during the recession was not properly that to be repeated. investing in skills so that people who lost their jobs could reskill, upskill, retrain or find new jobs. Angela Smith: I will be one of the first to admit that the 75p increase was a mistake. Will the hon. Gentleman Mr Stewart Jackson: I thank my hon. Friend for acknowledge that, under the Budget, the means of giving way; he is being extremely generous. Did he see raising the money to bring in the link to earnings a year the figures published today that show the shameful early might be raising the age at which women can claim legacy of 13 years of Labour government, which is that the state pension? one in four of our 18-year old boys is a NEET—not in education, employment or training? That is the record Mr Evennett: It is nice to hear the hon. Lady admit of the previous Government. that the Labour Government did something wrong. I do not think we have had one word like that today, and Mr Evennett: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is a I have sat through the whole debate. One would think lamentable record that almost 1 million young people that Labour Members thought that everything they did are classed as NEETs. That is a waste for them and their was wonderful, but in their heart of hearts they know futures, and for their communities and our economy the truth: there were mistakes. We are endeavouring to generally. Those young people have so much to contribute, rectify those mistakes to make sure that those who are but they cannot get on in life if they are not given vulnerable, such as the elderly, have the dignity in old opportunities because they are not trained and do not age that they deserve, and we passionately support and have the skills. If that is the case, they are unable to do believe in that. something for themselves, or for their communities and Fairness is key in the tax changes. Far too many our country generally. people on low incomes pay too much tax. When I was in Britain needs to grow stronger out of this recession. this place under the Governments of Margaret Thatcher It will do so if it can invest in the skills that mean that and John Major, people on low incomes paid low tax, people can adapt, develop and take advantage of the 371 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 372 Situation Situation new jobs and opportunities that are coming along. This this Budget is neither unavoidable nor fair: instead, it is Budget will get rid of over-regulation and red tape, and a massively failed opportunity to shift the economy into I hope that it will allow businesses to expand and create the greener, fairer direction that we need. the jobs that we need. Devastating public spending cuts of the kind announced Regrettably, we are starting from a weak skills base, yesterday are not unavoidable. They are not some kind with 5 million people in this country classed as functionally of economic inevitability, but an ideological choice. The illiterate and millions more struggling with basic numeracy reality is that there has been no public debate about the and literacy skills. Those are really important reminders choice between tackling the deficit through cuts or of Labour’s failure on skills, and they highlight the need through progressive and radical tax reform. Quite simply, for fresh thinking and new ideas. Those are not just that case has not been put. figures: we are talking about real people, and we on this That is hugely significant, because the fact that these side of the House are just as passionate as Opposition cuts will have an enormous impact on generations to Members about providing opportunities for young people come means there needs to be a national consensus that to get jobs. they are the right way forward. There is not that national Some of Labour’s skills programmes are not working, consensus; there is a growing sense of anger and disbelief with Train to Gain providing public subsidy for courses about the scale of the cuts proposed, as well as a that some employers would pay for anyway. That does growing sense that the Government have been economical not represent getting value for taxpayers’ money, but with the truth. the Budget shows that that is something that the Chancellor Let us be clear: we are not in the same position as of the Exchequer and his team are looking at. This Greece. Our cumulative national debt is not large by Government want to help people, but they also want to international standards. The structure of our debt is make sure that they are getting good value for the very long term—about 14 years. Much of this year’s taxpayer. debt will be sold to British-domiciled individuals and companies, so the international sovereign debt crisis has Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con): I thank my much less impact on us. Those are the truths of the hon. Friend for giving way. The House should be aware situation. that, although the statistics show that 550 young people are claiming jobseeker’s allowance in my constituency Sajid Javid: The hon. Lady said that our sovereign of Watford, there are plenty of training schemes. However, debt situation is not as bad as that of Greece. We do not the problem—into which I am currently carrying out just have to use Greece as an example; other countries research—is getting young people to go on those schemes. have faced drastic situations and austerity measures. It Money is being spent, but I am afraid that that is is not reasonable to look at the size of the debt as a happening in the usual irresponsible way that was proportion of GDP; we also have to look at the amount sanctioned by the former Government. As my hon. of debt we have been issuing, borrowing £3 billion a Friend noted, the important thing is to ensure that the week to help fund it. I am sure the hon. Lady is aware money is spent wisely, but that will require a lot of that last year the former Government printed about work. £200 billion in cash and borrowed about £225 billion on the gilts market. The only other country with a similar Mr Evennett: I thank my hon. Friend for highlighting policy was probably Zimbabwe, so I am sure she is not the point that I was making with a practical example advocating that we continue in that way. from his constituency of how things have gone wrong and need to be rectified. Caroline Lucas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his In view of the time and the fact that other people contribution, but if the then Government had not done wish to speak, I shall draw my remarks to a conclusion. that our situation would have been an awful lot worse. Yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said Many commentators are saying that this is a time to be that this was a Budget to show the world that Britain investing, not taking money out of the economy. Our was open for business again, and I believe that he was current situation would have been much worse if we right. The measures included in it will ensure that our had not had that stimulus at that time. country and all of its people are on the road—a rapid Despite what the Government say, we are not all in road, I hope—to recovery and prosperity. this together. Some people had more responsibility for This country has a potentially great future. What we the crisis than others and some benefited more from the need are the Government and the measures to encourage boom that preceded it. It seems to me that those who that development so that we can make progress along enjoyed the largest benefits should pay the highest price. that road. I believe that we have that in this new We need progressive tax reform. Increasing the tax take coalition Government. I think that we are on our way, from those most able to pay it and helping lower earners and that this Budget is an important step to ensuring by reintroducing the 10% tax band now would be a the future progress and success of our economy. good start, both in raising revenue and in addressing inequality. 5.23 pm If we are looking for ways to find more revenue, let us bear in mind the huge extent of tax avoidance, tax Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Thank evasion and unpaid tax in the UK. The figures are truly you for calling me to speak, Mr Deputy Speaker, and it staggering. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs admits is good to see you in your new position. that tax evasion and avoidance together come to almost The Government’s mantra is that this Budget is both £40 billion a year, and in November 2009 it admitted unavoidable and fair, yet more and more evidence that £28 billion of unpaid tax was owing. Shocking as demonstrates that exactly the opposite is true. In reality, those figures are, some experts out there suggest that 373 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 374 Situation Situation [Caroline Lucas] disabilities or who care for relatives, or hard-working people on low incomes. As the director of Shelter has the total target for necessary action to collect tax due said, and owing could be more than £100 billion a year. Why “If this support is ripped out suddenly from under their feet it do we not see more efforts to go after that kind of will push many households over the edge, triggering a spiral of money? debt, eviction and homelessness.” There are a range of options for changing the UK tax If we add to that—if that were not enough—the impact rules progressively so that more than £40 billion of of swingeing public spending cuts, we see a hugely bleak additional taxes could be raised each year by the end of picture. Unemployment will grow, and anyone who the life of this Parliament. With tax-collecting efficiency leaves school or college in the next five years faces a savings, that would deliver more than £60 billion of tax grim future. revenues for the UK, thus preventing any need for cuts Of course, meanwhile, the rich have been largely let to public services. off. That is why we have seen the coverage we have seen I say that not because I think we should introduce all in the Financial Times and everywhere else, with people those tax measures—certainly not straight away—but saying that they are breathing a sigh of relief because to prove that we have a choice. Spending cuts are not the Budget did not hit them as hard as they thought it the only way to address the deficit. Fairer taxation has might. The rich will hardly notice the VAT increase. The never even been put to the public as an option. That is a bank levy is puny—less than half the £5 billion to betrayal. £8 billion originally predicted—and is a fraction of City bonuses. That is not unavoidable; it is a political choice. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Is the hon. Lady aware that if the The Government could have introduced a Robin Hood tax rises she proposes were introduced, we would have tax to raise billions—they did not. That was another the highest ratio of tax to GDP that this country has political choice. had in 40 years—7% higher than the record achieved Unprotected departmental budgets will be savaged. under Margaret Thatcher’s Government? Local government will need to slash services if it is to freeze council tax. Public servants, who did nothing to Caroline Lucas: We also have a country that is at its cause the slump, are being asked to bear an unfair share most unequal at any time since the second world war. If of the burden. Again, one thing we can say for sure is someone asked me whether I would like either progressive that we are definitely not all in this together. People on tax reform or a much more equal society, I know which middle and low incomes have done much worse than I would choose, because so much evidence suggests that expected, and the rich have been let off much of what unequal societies are not just incredibly damaging for they feared, but we will all suffer from an economy that those at the bottom of the heap, which is fairly clear; now has a very real risk of going into a double-dip they are corrosive for everybody in society. Books such recession. as “The Spirit Level”have demonstrated just how corrosive Many Opposition Members have talked about the inequality is for everybody in terms of health outcomes importance of listening to commentators, such as Noble and general well-being. I am happy to say here and now prize winner Joseph Stiglitz or David Blanchflower, that I would much rather see an equal society. Of about the real dangers of that double dip. David course, that is something the coalition Government told Blanchflower is one of the very few people who saw the us the Budget was all about. It was supposed to be a fair recession coming. We should listen to his warnings now. Budget. The economy is still fragile. Today’s measures will certainly What choices were made? Let us be clear again that slow recovery and could well stop it in its tracks. Even they were political choices; they were not inevitabilities. Martin Wolf says in today’s Financial Times that we It was a political choice to make effective cuts to child should be printing more money, rather than taking it benefit, the child tax credit and child tax funds that, out of the economy. together, cost £2.5 billion. Those cuts could have been I should like to suggest that the real way out of the avoided if, for example, the Chancellor had chosen not crisis, as well as fairer taxation, is through a major to cut corporation tax. It was also a political choice to Government investment in the green infrastructure that increase VAT—a tax that hits the poorest hardest and this country so urgently needs if we are to emerge that both Government parties said they were not in stronger from the recession than we were when we went favour of increasing. into it. My party has called for the introduction of a Raising the income tax threshold as some kind of green new deal—a massive and sustained investment in compensation does nothing for the poorest households energy efficiency and renewable energy generation, which that do not pay income tax anyway, since in any given would create hundreds of thousands of new jobs, as year about one in four families contains no income well as cutting carbon emissions and making our economy taxpayer at all. Uprating future benefits and tax credits more sustainable. only in line with consumer price inflation, rather than Let me give an example. Greens on a council in the retail price inflation, will have a dramatic effect in north of the country brought an idea to the table that increasing inequality in society. If we add to that the was accepted by the council and is being rolled out. severe cuts in housing benefit, which will have a devastating Essentially, they leveraged some money from the energy impact on areas where significant numbers of people companies and matched it with some council funding, depend on it, such as my constituency of Brighton and they are now rolling out free insulation for 40,000 homes Pavilion, we can see that the menu we are being served in that area. That is not only cutting emissions, but up is very damaging indeed. saving average families about £150 a year on their fuel Let us remember that the vast majority of people bills and creating 200 jobs. That sort of programme who claim housing benefit are pensioners, people with needs to be rolled out country-wide. 375 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 376 Situation Situation What about green measures in the Budget—or, better, I have become conscious of the protocol that interventions, where are the green measures in the Budget? Let us questions, answers and speeches should be short and to remember what the coalition manifesto promised. It the point. I am sure that hon. Members will be pleased said that it was promising to hear that I shall follow that tradition. “a full programme of measures to fulfil our joint ambitions for a My predecessor was a Labour Member, and although low carbon and eco-friendly economy”. our politics, outlook and the way in which we do things Those ambitions cannot have been very high. are different, I acknowledge that Eric Martlew had the The coalition’s first Budget offered little more than a interests of Carlisle at heart. He came from Carlisle, he passing reference to the green investment bank, just a believed in Carlisle and he clearly did his best for few lines about future reforms to the price of carbon Carlisle, and I do not think that more can be asked of a dioxide and a renewed promise on energy efficiency, so constituency MP. where exactly is this famous full programme of measures? I would like to cite two examples of Eric’s work. In I searched in vain, but instead I saw old style, big 2005, when we had the great floods in Carlisle that were picture macro-economics, with a 4% cut in corporation devastating for many people, he got heavily involved tax over the Parliament and a regional growth fund for and managed to convince the Government to spend new businesses from next April that will provide considerable sums on building flood defences. I am “a stable economic foundation for private sector growth”. delighted to say that those flood defences are now I am not against that, but what kind of growth are we almost complete. Eric also had a great interest in rail talking about? Where is any commitment to sustainability and was a member of the all-party group on the west in the vision for growth? What about the commitment coast rail line. During his years as a Member, the to the green investment bank, which is urgently needed Euston-to-Carlisle train journey time dropped considerably. to drive £2 billion into clean energy by 2020? Apparently, I am benefiting from that, in that my train journeys are we are going to have to wait, as there was no particular half an hour to an hour shorter than they would have urgency on the green agenda in the Budget. been. If the high-speed rail link is introduced, I would We were told instead that the Government will put like think that that journey time will drop further. forward If hon. Members were to get the train to Carlisle, I do “detailed proposals on the creation of a Green Investment Bank” not think that they would be disappointed by our great after the spending review, but we have heard that before. city. Our compact border city is welcoming and friendly, We are told that the Government are considering a wide and in many respects it is a well-kept secret—it was so range of options, but there is no confirmation of legislation secret that it successfully avoided being mentioned in and no mention of capitalisation. With nothing in the the Domesday Book. The city is just 10 miles from the Budget on the green deal for households, we must wait Scottish border, and as a Scot who has been elected for for this autumn’s energy security and green economy an English constituency right on the border, I am Bill. The low-carbon industrial strategy already appears delighted to report that border relations are good and to have lost urgency and direction. we support England’s result today. The Chancellor talked a great deal yesterday about Carlisle has a rich heritage. Its castle was built by the crisis of national debt, but he barely mentioned the William II, and its cathedral, although small, dates much bigger and more dangerous crisis of climate change. from the 12th century. Of course, we have the world When the coalition Government were formed, Ministers heritage site of Hadrian’s wall, which is a popular spot said they would be the greenest Government ever. As I for people walking from the east coast to the west coast, pointed out at the time, that, sadly, would not be very as well as the Tullie House museum. difficult, given Labour’s lamentable record, but it does We also have an industrial heritage. In the past, we not look as though serious steps are being taken to had railways and crane makers, and the builder Laing make this a green Government either. originated in Carlisle; today, we still have a lot of The Budget is economically dangerous, socially divisive manufacturing, with Pirelli cars, Nestlé, Carr’s Milling and completely lacking in any kind of vision for and, with food manufacturing being a big thing in sustainability. Tragically, an opportunity has been missed Carlisle, Carr’s water biscuits—a real favourite of mine. to introduce something genuinely progressive, such as a We also still have a strong building society—the Cumberland Robin Hood tax on financial transactions, measures to building society—and long may that continue to be the increase employment and cut emissions through a green case. Sadly, we have lost Border Television, although new deal, and measures to introduce fairer taxation—in probably the only thing that people remember about other words, measures to take us closer to the fairer, that company is that it produced “Mr and Mrs”. I hope greener Britain that the coalition says it wants to achieve, that there will be a rebalancing of the economy. Carlisle but from which, after the Budget, we are further than may well benefit from that, because manufacturing is ever before. still very much a part of our local economy. The most important thing is, obviously, people. I 5.37 pm came to Carlisle 18 years ago and was made very welcome by the people of the city. I have lived and John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con): As a north-west MP, worked there, and there is no greater privilege than to I welcome you to your new role, Mr Deputy Speaker. become their representative. However, there are problems I would like to think that a bit of history is being everywhere, and Carlisle is no exception. We have the made today because, as the first Conservative MP to legacy of the previous Government to deal with, and I have been elected for Carlisle since 1959, I am the first believe that rebalancing the economy, improving education Conservative from Carlisle to be making a maiden and helping the low-paid will be the key issues for speech for 50 years. Since becoming a new Member, Carlisle. 377 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 378 Situation Situation [John Stevenson] football score. I assure the House that I am very interested in that. I wish England well and hope they go all the How are we to make those improvements? In my way, but, to be blunt, such is the seriousness of today’s view, first, we must decentralise. It is important that we debate that I had to forgo the pleasure of watching the take decision making back to the communities and game and instead sit in the Chamber throughout the allow local people to make local decisions for themselves. afternoon, listening to the excellent speeches made by Whitehall has a role, but that role has become far too Members on both sides of the House. Far more seriously, big. We now have the opportunity to return power to there is another canard that I would like to try to nail: local people. I genuinely believe that elected mayors the belief that Labour Members have acted both before offer a way forward, because they bring transparency to and since the election as if nothing needed to be done in local decision making and make people aware of who is the face of the economic crisis. We did act before the in charge of their local community. election, and made tough decisions to attempt to shore The Budget has been described as tough but fair. I up the economy to make sure that there was not a more genuinely agree with that description and think that profound recession or, indeed, a depression as a result three things flow from the Budget. First, we must of the global economic crisis. I believe that we secured a encourage business. The real recovery will come from better future for the country as a result of those actions. the private sector and we can achieve that only through Before the election, we acknowledged that we would the changes to taxation, which I welcome, and, of equal need to tighten our belt and make post-election savings importance, less regulation and less interference in business. to redress the balance and to draw down the deficit. We That is how businesses thrive. certainly spelled out the fact that we would make cuts Secondly, and very relevant to Carlisle, we must look and savings of £40 billion. We did not spell out exactly after the low-paid. I think that the Budget helps with where those cuts would fall, but neither did the then that through the increase in the personal allowance and Opposition. They gave us the impression that they child tax credit, linking pensions with earnings, and the would do more, and they mentioned £6 billion of savings council tax freeze. The pay freeze does not affect the that they would make in efficiency cuts. We were not low-paid—those paid less than £21,000—in our public told about the specific measures that appeared in the services. Budget yesterday. We were not warned about the VAT Thirdly, we have the public sector. The public sector rise that they have now deemed necessary, and we were is still important—still vital to our economy and our not warned about the enormous and savage cuts that we communities—but it has to innovate, think differently expect in the autumn to public services. Those things and do things differently. Let me make one suggestion were not spelled out by the then Opposition. If we had to Government Departments. Carlisle has a low cost won the election—doubtless, many Liberal voters, both base, housing is of good quality but relatively cheap in my constituency and up and down the country, now and our industrial sites are cheaper than those in many wish that we had done so—we would have to make other places. I therefore suggest that the Government some tough decisions. However, I believe that we would should consider moving Departments from the south to make them in a way that was genuinely fair and informed the north. Doing so will save them money and help to by principles of social equity and economic justice. regenerate parts of Carlisle. I do not believe that the decisions announced in The Treasury team and Ministers in other Departments yesterday’s Budget meet those principles. Many people have many difficult decisions to make in the coming say that politicians are all the same but, like my hon. months, but they will not go far wrong if they follow Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), Carlisle city’s motto, “Be just and fear not.” If I follow we can no longer go on believing that there are not that motto as the Member for Carlisle, I think I will genuine ideological divides between the two sides of have done okay. the House. Yesterday’s decisions clearly mark out the Government’s territory, and I contend that if we were in Several hon. Members rose— a similar position, the values that I have just outlined and which inform our politics would lead to a different Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Hoyle): Order. Before I call set of conclusions that would not result in the poorest the next speaker, may I say to hon. Members that we are and the most vulnerable having to bear the pain and pay running out of time and quite a lot of Members still the price for paying down the deficit. want to speak in this debate. I am therefore setting a I commend the Secretary of State for Business, 12-minute limit on speeches, so that we have time for the Innovation and Skills for the chutzpah with which he winding-up speeches as well. performed today’s volte-face. It was truly remarkable to see him stand at the Dispatch Box and defend this Tory 5.43 pm Budget and Administration to the hilt. He bore eloquent testament to the old adage that there is no one as zealous Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): Noted, Mr Deputy as a convert. He invoked the name of Sir Stafford Speaker. I welcome you to your new position. Cripps, the famously austere Labour Chancellor, who—this I congratulate the hon. Member for Carlisle (John says a few things about austerity—was rumoured to get Stevenson) on making an excellent maiden speech. I up in the morning and prepare with an ice-cold bath at made my own only a couple of weeks ago and know 5 am before coming to the Chamber. I am not sure that that it is a nerve-wracking affair. He gave an extremely the Secretary of State does that yet; perhaps he will assured and insightful performance. move on to that. It was wholly unfair of him to invoke I want to nail a disgraceful canard, which has been the name of Sir Stafford Cripps, because while the 1949 repeated several times this afternoon, that Welsh Members Budget was an austere Budget—he was right at least to present today are absolutely uninterested in the England imply that it was a Budget in which a Labour Chancellor 379 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 380 Situation Situation raised the forerunner of VAT—the austerity of the That means moving jobs out of my constituency, fewer measures that were recommended yesterday is such that jobs moving into Cardiff and the local management even Sir Stafford Cripps would find them breathtaking imposing a pay freeze that will not be offset by the and, indeed, eye-watering. £21,000 cut-off suggested by the Government yesterday. The scale of cuts proposed by the Government—25% Companies House management, in order to meet their in non-ring-fenced departmental budgets—was previously requirements of 11% savings, will have to freeze pay unimaginable in the history of Parliament. We have across the board and stop any staff promotion. Both never seen cuts on such a scale. measures are punitive and unfair, and when I meet the We have heard invoked many examples—analogies—of workers at Nantgarw I cannot explain why they should other countries where similar cuts, or allegedly similar be asked to pay the price for a crisis that was made on cuts, and programmes have been implemented, but today trading floors and in bankers’ back rooms. we have heard those analogies thoroughly knocked It is a shame that the hon. Member for The Cotswolds down. Canada and Sweden are two such examples. We (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown) has left the Chamber, because know that Canada succeeded in implementing a programme he gave a paean of praise to UKTI earlier, and he ought of cuts which was half the size of what the Government to know that UKTI will be subject to that 11% cut. now propose, and did so in twice the time. Government Far from its being protected, it too will be subject to Members have repeatedly referred to Sweden, but again serious cuts. the very clear evidence of history is that Sweden tried to Why have we been told that we need to make these implement swingeing cuts of only 20% and did so over cuts? It is because of the false spectres that are being 15 years, not five. So we have something that is twice as raised on the Government Benches, including the notion draconian as what was done in Canada, three times as that our markets were in danger of pulling the rug out draconian as what was attempted in Sweden and, on from under the economy and that we were about to many measures, more punitive than the extraordinary have our triple A rating withdrawn by the very people programme of cuts that the IMF has imposed on who got all the ratings wrong, or certainly got their call Greece—an analogy that even the Secretary of State for wrong on where we stood in respect of sub-prime debt. Business, Innovation and Skills acknowledges is not Equally, we are being fed lines about the nature of the appropriate. Many Opposition Members have already unaffordability of our debt that I suggest we should ignore. outlined the statistics that underpin that contention. I close with a plea that Government Members remember I stand here as a Welsh Member fearful that my the human cost of budget cuts and look ahead to the constituents will suffer disproportionately as a result of comprehensive spending review, when we anticipate the Budget. The Financial Times stated earlier this week seeing even greater cuts implemented. They should and the Manchester school of economics pronounced think hard about how that will bite on ordinary working only this morning that, inevitably, parts of the country people in our communities in places such as Pontypridd, such as mine will suffer disproportionately. For all sorts and think hard about what we can do to alleviate that of reasons, we have greater economic problems, relating and to implement cuts in the most sensitive and affordable to our post-industrial heritage, and a greater reliance on manner possible. public sector jobs and spending, and I am deeply worried that currently there are no indications from the Government 5.56 pm about how they will alleviate or offset that damage in Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): I start by areas of Wales such as my constituency. congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle As we look at the blizzard of statistics in yesterday’s (John Stevenson) on his passionate speech and on speaking Red Book and trade them across the Floor of the up for localism. That is something that Government House, the human impact of those cuts is too often Members strongly believe in, and I hope that we will see forgotten. I went back to my office yesterday evening to it acted out in the Government’s manifesto. find several e-mails from constituents who are deeply Having listened to Opposition Members during today’s worried about the proposals. I highlight the case of a debate, it is interesting that not a single one of them had couple, Phillip and Sandra Woods, who said that they anything positive whatsoever to say about this Budget; were terrified that they would see an assault on the in fact, many of them have denounced it in no uncertain benefits that make their life liveable. They are severely terms. There has been a great deal of shaking of heads disabled and rely on disability living allowance, jobseeker’s and gnashing of teeth. What always happens in these and employment allowances and housing benefit. For cases is that Labour develops something called collective those people, who live on meagre amounts of money, amnesia about why we are having to make these tough hand to mouth, week to week, the Budget presents a choices on public expenditure and on taxation. Let me horrifying prospect. Equally, they were right to point therefore remind them, once again, why that is the case. out their anger that so many Government Members I see that the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. castigate such people as part of the problem, as opposed Morris) is laughing, but he really should try to understand to people who need to be supported in our communities. why this is happening. The reason is very clear. Under I have one more human example of the cuts: the Labour, we have had the deepest recession on record public sector workers at Companies House in my and the longest recession of all the G20 countries. constituency at Nantgarw. They are relatively low-paid Under Labour, we have ended up with the largest deficit public sector workers, working in a Government Executive in Europe, and the national debt has doubled. agency—sitting beneath the Department for Business, Let me quote what the co-chief investment officer of Innovation Skills—that is profitable. It is statutorily Pimco, the largest bond fund manager in the world, said mandated to operate within its costs and to return to in January 2010: the Exchequer 3.5% per annum. I cannot understand “The UK is a must to avoid. Its gilts are resting on a bed of the logic or fairness of what has happened to those nitroglycerine. High debt with the potential to devalue its currency people, because they are being asked to suffer 11% cuts. present high risks”. 381 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 382 Situation Situation [Alok Sharma] businesses, but I can tell them that local businesses in my part of the world and the rest of the country got by The trajectory under Labour’s plans is pretty clear. If because they helped themselves. They increased productivity we were to do what Labour is suggesting, we would and took pay cuts, and instead of people working five have the potential loss of our triple A debt rating, days a week, they worked four. There has been a lot of higher interest rates, more business failures, and sharper pain in the private sector. rises in unemployment—everything that nobody, on either side of the House, wants to see. There has been a Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): My hon. lot of talk about Greece. Perhaps Labour Members Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to the fact should look at what happens in a country such as that small and larger businesses have taken the hit. We Greece when it does not get to grips with its public hear so often from Labour Members that they are finances and there is a loss of confidence by the capital worried about what is happening in the public sector, markets. but that sector needs to take a leaf out of the book of In 1997, the Labour Government inherited a golden the private sector, in which people have taken 10% cuts economic legacy. In 2010, what did Labour leave the and four-day weeks. That has not happened at all in the current Government? Oh yes—a note from the former public sector. We are looking for an increase in productivity. Chief Secretary to the Treasury declaring, “I’m afraid A 25% reduction does not necessarily— to tell you there’s no money left.” That is exactly why we are having to make these cuts. Let me absolutely clear Mr Speaker: Order. I just very gently say to the hon. about this, although Labour Members may not agree: Lady that an intervention must be just that; it must not out there—outside this House—very many members of be a mini-speech. the general public take the view that these public expenditure cuts are ultimately Labour’s public expenditure cuts, Alok Sharma: Thank you, Mr Speaker. and that the tax rises are ultimately Labour’s tax rises. On Government help for local businesses, during the Of course, the pied piper of Labour’s decade of height of the recession, I attended a meeting of more debt—the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and than 100 people from businesses in my constituency. Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown)—has not been seen in the That was when the then Business Secretary, Lord House for quite some time, but I hope he has had Mandelson, was parading all over the place to tell us the chance to reflect on the damage his Government’s about all the schemes he was introducing to help local policies did to our economy, and that when he returns, businesses. When I asked those business people whether he will say the one word we had hoped to hear from a a single one of them had been able to access any of the Labour Member: sorry. I am sad to say that we have not funds that Lord Mandelson was talking about, two heard it. hands went up in a room of more than 100 people. Both In the past four years, I spent a lot of time talking to those people had tried to access the funds, but found the businesses and business organisations in Reading, so I process too complicated and gave up. The reality is that should like to spend the rest of my speech talking about businesses were not helped by the previous Government. the measures in the Budget for them, particularly small I am pleased that in the Budget the Government propose and medium-sized businesses, which are the backbone a lower corporation tax rate, simplifying the tax system, of our economy, save to make one point on public reducing red tape and getting credit flowing. services. We can all agree that we want a world-class I am delighted that the main rate of corporation tax health service and the best schools for our children, and will be reduced from 28% to 24% over four years, which we want dignity and financial support in retirement for will end up being the lowest rate among the G7 countries. our pensioners, but to fund high-quality public services, Local communities, businesses and business organisations we need a vibrant private sector to lead growth and in my constituency have told me that they are delighted recovery. that the small companies rate will go to 20% instead of Businesses in my constituency in the past few years the planned increase to 22%, as proposed by the previous have invariably told me that they feel overtaxed, Government. On the jobs tax, which was talked about overburdened by red tape and regulation, and overwhelmed during the election and which universally businesses by a complex tax system. They want help in getting were not happy about, I am delighted that under the credit flowing. The base rate may be 0.5%, but that Budget the negative effect of the employers’ rate rise in bears little relation to the spreads that businesses must national insurance will largely be reversed by increasing pay when they go for bank debt. We need to get to grips the threshold for employer NI contributions by £21 a with that. Above all, businesses want us to tackle national week above indexation. That means that the number of debt and to get some confidence back into the country. employees for whom employers will pay no national That is what we hope the Budget will do. insurance will rise by 650,000. We talked about over-regulation and the tax system. We will see a simplification of the tax system. As the Because of the previous Government, we now have the Budget Red Book makes clear, tax competitiveness is longest tax code in the world. According to the Federation not just about rates and incidence of tax; predictability, of Small Businesses, small businesses spend seven hours stability and simplicity are also important. Like many a week filling out forms. According to the British Chambers Government Members, I look forward to the details of of Commerce, new regulation since 1998 has cost British the proposed independent office of tax simplification. businesses almost £77 billion. The key point is that local businesses want time to get The Thames valley and Reading are relatively prosperous on and do business, and not to get bogged down by red parts of the country, but the recession did not pass us tape. I am delighted, therefore, that the Government by. Shops closed, businesses folded and people lost jobs. have said that they understand that the volume and Labour Members say that Labour did a lot to help local complexity of regulation can damage UK competitiveness. 383 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 384 Situation Situation I am pleased, therefore, that we will have a one in, one fairness into society; on the contrary, it short-circuits out system for new regulations as well as the imposition fairness, because it hits the poorest families twice as of sunset clauses. hard as the richest. Britain’s richest families spend just A number of small businesses in my constituency 7% of their disposable income on VAT, while the poorest that I have talked to are keen to get a share of the spend almost 14%. How fair is that? The truth is that it Government’s pie when it comes to spending. Again, is not fair at all. Cutting tax credits, freezing child therefore, I am pleased that under the Budget the benefit, slashing housing allowances, cancelling the help Government plan to promote small business procurement in pregnancy grant and chopping free school meals are by publishing central Government tenders online from not fair either. the end of the year. The final thing that many businesses No doubt the Liberal Democrat members of the want is credit to start flowing again, and I am pleased to coalition Government will point to the increase in tax see that recognised in the Chancellor’s speech and reflected thresholds that they wrung out of the Chancellor as in the Budget documentation. The Government recognise evidence of their influence. However, the sad fact is that the need for banks to promote lending, especially to the meagre increase that they secured will make little small and medium-sized enterprises. I am delighted that difference to low-paid workers and will be more than there is going to be an increase in the enterprise finance offset by the regressive measures that the Chancellor guarantee and the creation of the growth capital fund, announced yesterday. Worse still, many of the workers which will help fast growing small and medium-sized who might benefit from the modest uplift in tax allowances businesses. will end up losing their jobs if the Liberal Democrats Several Members have also touched on the banking vote through the Budget. sector. It is important that the Government want to Of course, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor ensure that the banking system and the financial markets insist on repeating their quasi-egalitarian mantra, “We’re meet the longer-term needs of the economy, and I look all in this together.” Needless to say, it is nonsense, and forward, therefore, to the publication of the Green it has overtones of the infamous scene in George Orwell’s Paper on business finance before the summer recess. “Animal Farm” when the animals realise that the pigs This is a tough but fair Budget. We have had to make so have changed the seven commandments to read: many difficult choices because of the legacy left to us by “All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than the previous Government. I am pleased that, as part of others”— the Budget, the Chancellor has made every effort to or, to put it another way, “We’re all in this together, but protect the most vulnerable people, including pensioners. if you’re poor, you’re in it a lot deeper than others,” such That is so important and the hallmark of a fair society. as the numerous millionaires who sit on the Government The Budget will focus on returning stability to our Benches. economy, on getting the country back on its feet and, Increased unemployment will force more people on over the coming years, on delivering strong growth to to state benefits, which will put pressure on the size of the economy. the national deficit, which the Chancellor claims to be so concerned about. However, unless he has a damascene 6.8 pm conversion, I suspect that he will respond to the failure of his economic prospectus by making even deeper cuts Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): I congratulate in welfare provision, as happened in the 1930s and the hon. Members for Harrogate and Knaresborough 1980s. No doubt he will try to justify his failure by (Andrew Jones) and for Carlisle (John Stevenson) on repeating his Orwellian mantra, but the reality is that it making their maiden speeches today. will not be his former Bullingdon club colleagues paying A week before the general election, the Prime Minister the price of that failure. No, it will be Britain’s poorest said: people, who will be in it up to their necks. “The test of a government is how it looks after the most Of course, the Tories have form on that. I saw what vulnerable, not just in good times but also in bad”. they did in the 1980s to proud working-class communities On April fools’ day, he told BBC News that the in constituencies such as mine all over the country. They Conservatives’ plans did not involve an increase in VAT, caused mass unemployment, slashed welfare provision, and when speaking on “The Andrew Marr Show”, the decimated front-line public services and did not stop Prime Minister also said that cutting until they were thrown out of office in 1997. “any cabinet minister…who comes to me and says, “Here are my They even used another Orwellian ploy: to blame the plans” and they involve frontline reductions, they’ll be sent straight unemployed for being out of work, labelling them as back to their department to go away and think again.” “scroungers”. Indeed, I see that the Prime Minister was That prompts the question: why did he not ask the at it again over the weekend when he talked about Chancellor to think again about his dreadful Budget—a “welfare scroungers”. The Chancellor joined in the Budget that will result in the quality of life of Britain’s Orwellian chorus with his “Ministry of Truth”description most vulnerable people being sacrificed on the altar of of his Budget as a “progressive Budget”. Tory dogma, a Budget that will result in massive reductions in front-line services, and a Budget that will lead to a Andrew Percy: I have a quick question for the hon. colossal increase in unemployment? It is less than seven Gentleman. Can he tell us whether unemployment in weeks since the Prime Minister made those solemn his constituency was higher or lower at the end of pledges, but the Chancellor’s proposal to increase VAT 13 years of a Labour Government? is making a fool out of him. We must not forget the Deputy Prime Minister either, Chris Williamson: Unemployment certainly fell in my who said that he wanted to “hardwire fairness” into constituency in the 13 years of the previous Labour society. However, increasing VAT does not hardwire Government. I will tell the hon. Gentleman this as well: 385 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 386 Situation Situation [Chris Williamson] I heard Members of the coalition parties, including the Chancellor, eulogising the Canadian experience of thanks to the measures that they put in place, poverty cutting its deficit in the 1980s and arguing for the same was reduced in my constituency, people enjoyed the approach to be adopted here, but their “Ministry of national minimum wage and were able to get health Truth” description of themselves as “compassionate treatment far more quickly than previously, and children Conservatives” imposing so-called caring cuts defies all were not taught in overcrowded schools, so let us have reason. The reality of the Canadian experience saw no more lectures from him. increased homelessness, overcrowded classrooms, pension Let us never forget that everything that I have described cuts and a drastic shortage of hospital beds. On one has only been made possible by the vacillating Liberal occasion, the Canadians even emptied a hospital and Democrats, who say one thing then do another. Less blew it up in a desperate attempt to save money. Is that than seven weeks ago, the Deputy Prime Minister said really what the coalition parties mean by “caring cuts”? that his party represented a new kind of politics, with By contrast, the US President has written to all G20 fresh ideas. What we got was a party supporting reactionary leaders begging them not to cut spending too quickly. right-wing policies instead. Fewer than seven weeks Mr Obama says it is critical that ago, he was apparently opposed to the self-same right-wing “the timing and pace of consolidation in each country suit the policies that he now endorses. This is what he told his needs of the global economy”. party conference on 23 September last year: He adds: “We know what happens when you simply squeeze budgets, “We must be flexible in adjusting the pace of consolidation across the board, until the pips squeak. We know, because we and learn from the consequential mistakes of the past when lived through it before, under the Conservatives. We remember stimulus was too quickly withdrawn and resulted in renewed the tumble-down classrooms, the pensioners dying on hospital economic hardships and recession.” trolleys, the council houses falling into total disrepair. We remember, and we say: never again.” But the Chancellor just does not seem to get it. He is obsessed with implementing an approach that failed in In an interview with Jeremy Paxman on 12 April this the 1930s, failed in the 1980s, failed in the 1990s and is year, the Deputy Prime Minister said: destined to fail again. He wants to implement an unfair “Do I think that these big cuts are merited or justified, at a budget that will hit the poorest hardest, undermine the time when the economy is struggling to get to its feet? Clearly not.” economic recovery, destroy public services and increase unemployment. That is what he said at that time. David Blanchflower, one of Britain’s top economists, Millions of people who rejected the Conservatives’ said today that he is right-wing policy prospectus were seduced into voting for the Liberal Democrats by the Deputy Prime Minister’s “now convinced that as a result of this reckless Budget the UK will suffer a double-dip recession or worse, not least because there rhetoric. People actually believed that the Liberal Democrats is no room for interest-rate cuts, although lots of additional represented progressive values. How wrong they were. quantitative easing… from the Bank of England could soften the People now see that the reality is very different from the blow”. Deputy Prime Minister’s rhetoric. People see that he is Growth is the key to addressing the deficit, and the now so determined to appease his Conservative masters Budget is a wasted opportunity. The Chancellor has that he is even prepared to sacrifice his own constituents chosen to penalise the weak and the powerless, instead by opposing a Government loan to Sheffield Forgemasters. of making the rich and powerful individuals and institutions That is nothing new. The Liberal Democrats and pay. their predecessors in the Liberal party have assisted the Conservatives into power in four out of the last seven Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): The lack of responsibility general elections. It is thanks to the Liberal party splitting taken by Labour Members for the state of the country’s the centre-left vote in 1983 and 1987 that Margaret finances is breathtaking. The Labour Government left Thatcher was able to secure two landslide election victories. this country not with a small hole in the public finances, Then the Liberal Democrats did the same thing in 1992, but with a yawning chasm, which this Government will forcing the country to endure another five years of Tory have to sort out. rule. The truth is that they are not a progressive party at all; they are merely a collection of self-indulgent political Chris Williamson: That irresponsibility is on the loners. Government Benches, because David Blanchflower, an All the post-war progressive legislation has been esteemed economist in this country who predicted the introduced by Labour Governments often in the teeth recession and who should be taken seriously, is now of fierce opposition from the Tories and sometimes the predicting a double-dip recession as a result of “this Liberals, too. Examples include the NHS, the welfare reckless Budget”. The hon. Lady ought to reflect on his state, comprehensive education, equal pay, civil partnerships, words, rather than criticising Labour Members. the national minimum wage, Sure Start, the ban on fox Rather than taking the appropriate steps against hunting, and the Open university, to name but a few. powerful individuals and institutions, to ensure that they pay a fairer contribution towards reducing the Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): Will the hon. deficit, the Chancellor has chosen to penalise the weak Gentleman give way? and the powerless. The Budget has let down the great British public. I assure Government Members that it Chris Williamson: No, I do not have time. will come back to haunt them. We will certainly ensure Some of the country’s greatest progressive advances that the British public know what this Government, and were brought about by Labour when the size of the the Liberal Democrats in particular, have inflicted on national debt was far higher than it is today. them. When the next general election comes, the Liberal 387 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 388 Situation Situation Democrats, who have been swallowed whole by the Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab): I hope that Conservative party in this Chamber, will live to regret the hon. Lady will steer away from misleading the the day that they put the Tories in power. House into believing that the Labour Government did not wish to reduce the national deficit, because she must know that they proposed to halve it over a period 6.22 pm of four years. Can she tell us with what part of that package she has so much difficulty? Mary Macleod (Brentford and Isleworth) (Con): I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate on a Mary Macleod: The hon. Gentleman clearly has a matter that impacts on the life of every person in the very short memory of what the present Opposition did country, every minute of every day. I congratulate my to the country. What we, as the Government, need to do hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough now is address the present situation and, as we have (Andrew Jones) on his maiden speech, in which he done in the emergency Budget, come up with measures spoke warmly about Yorkshire at its best, and said that to turn it around. his constituency was open for business. He took the words out of my mouth, because I was going to say that Far from being reckless, as was suggested yesterday my constituency was open for business, and that shows by the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell how we need the whole country to be open for business and Peckham (Ms Harman), this Budget has shown after the Budget. My hon. Friend the Member for that the Government are prepared to take on their Carlisle (John Stevenson) also made his maiden speech, responsibilities and make the tough decisions required. in which he spoke about regeneration. I am sure that he That is something that the previous Government neglected will be just and fear not in his time in the House. to do. We are putting the country first, and doing the right thing. What would be reckless would be to continue This is a serious Budget for serious times. As my hon. to allow debt interest payments to increase as they have Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) been doing. The cuts that are coming are actually reminded us, this is also a day when England were Labour cuts. We have inherited a mess far worse than playing a serious game of football. On behalf of the we were told we would inherit before the election, and House I congratulate our team on winning the game, we are paying the bills for the last Government’s and perhaps they will continue to win throughout the irresponsible actions. That is their legacy to Britain. If World cup. we carry on as we are, we may be paying about £70 billion I really do not know what planet the hon. Member in interest on our debt in five years’ time. for Derby North (Chris Williamson), who has just spoken, is on. He should be apologising for what the Huw Irranca-Davies: I said in my speech that no one previous Government did to take the country to the could avoid cuts, efficiencies, choices, priorities and brink of ruin. projects, but there is a choice to be made in terms of both timing and speed. I ask the hon. Lady to hesitate Guy Opperman: The hon. Member for Derby North before saying that the proposals from the coalition quoted some statistics at us about the degree of Government are the only way forward. There are plenty unemployment in his constituency. I am lucky enough of voices out there saying that there are other ways of to have the paper on unemployment by constituency doing this. from June 2010; handily, it was in my pocket as I walked into the Chamber. Without going back 13 years in Mary Macleod: The hon. Gentleman spoke very relation to the Labour Government, let me say that the movingly about the impact on his constituents. Let me paper indicates that in Derby North in May 2005 there reassure him that I believe that this is the right Budget were 1,318 jobseeker’s allowance applicants, but that for the future, and that his constituents will recognise that has now gone up to 2,576—a significant increase, that over the next five years. If we retain our current one might think, of 95.4%. debt in five years’ time, however, we could be paying more in debt interest than on educating our children, Mary Macleod: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. policing our streets and defending our country, and that That proves that the Opposition are living on a different would be a disgrace. planet, and that they have not a clue about what they The United Kingdom remained in recession for longer have really done to the country over the past 13 years. than the other G7 countries. Output declined for six This emergency Budget is very much about a plan for consecutive quarters, and we now have the highest the future. We have shown that we are bold enough to inflation in Europe. Continuing with business as usual make the tough decisions that need to be made. The simply is not an option, so we are faced with the task of Chancellor has been faced with a deficit of a size that making the unavoidable, and in some cases unpalatable, we have never seen before. I commend his Budget and decisions that have been called for by the Governor of his determination to stick to the principles of responsibility, the Bank of England, the G20, and many in industry. fairness and enterprise. Not acting to reduce the deficit Mervyn King has described the Government’s deficit is simply not an option. We are not in a position to reduction as “strong and powerful”. He said: decide whether to deal with debts or go for growth, as “I am very pleased that there is a very clear and binding Labour would have us believe. We have seen from the commitment to accelerate the reduction in the deficit over the recent crises in the eurozone that unless we deal with lifetime of the Parliament”. those debts, there will be no growth. This Budget is The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and about achieving balance in our economy by paring Easter Ross (John Thurso)—I went to Lairg primary spending to affordable levels and stimulating growth so school, so I am very fond of his constituency—talked that we can encourage business and enterprise. about the risks and pain associated with the Budget, but 389 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 390 Situation Situation [Mary Macleod] investment projects will go ahead. Naturally, I will put in a request for Crossrail, a much needed capital investment he also said that this was something that we had to do. I for London. agree wholeheartedly with that. However, we have tried Secondly, we also have to tackle the excess costs. This to do it in a way that spreads the pain that is so Budget has tried to create the right infrastructure for inevitable, while protecting those most at risk and the future, but it is vital that we tackle the excess costs establishing the conditions required to ensure future within our economy and get control of the welfare state. growth. I have received letters from, and spoken to, constituents First, let us look at the impact on business. Businesses who feel it is unfair that they have worked hard all their large and small have much to be hopeful about following lives and have paid taxes and are living in modest this Budget. As in other constituencies, there are many circumstances, whereas others are not working and are such businesses in Brentford and Isleworth. They need a being supported by the state in accommodation way stable economic environment in which to prosper, and beyond anything they could envisage for themselves. As this Budget will deliver that. The cuts in corporation tax the Chancellor said, some of these benefits have got will benefit them greatly and encourage them to continue completely out of control, and we must review these to grow their staff and expand their operations in the costs. UK, and smaller businesses will appreciate the cut in The Chancellor was also right to point out the waste the small companies tax rate from 22% to 20%. that the benefits culture engenders, not only in a financial However, let me tell Members what some of my sense to the state, but in terms of the loss of talent from constituents said to me when I spoke to them today. The individuals themselves and the ongoing impact on self- chief executive of West London Business, who represents esteem and stress on family life to which living in more than 800 businesses in west London, said: workless households can lead. I therefore welcome the proposals that the various welfare to work schemes will “Overall we feel that this is a pro-business Budget and we are pleased with it: a key element is the reduction in corporation tax be combined and simplified to support people back into which is positive for all businesses; 89% of businesses in our area jobs. It is vital for the revised scheme to be as flexible have fewer than 10 employees so they will be happy with the relief and creative as possible, particularly when looking at on national insurance payments for small businesses. Whilst CGT ways to bring groups such as lone parents whose children has increased, these are welcome allowances for business.” are at school back into the work force. I also spoke to Andrew Doggwiler of the Hounslow Thirdly, I want to comment on departmental budgets, chambers of commerce. He said: which will focus the minds of many of us here in the “It was a tough Budget with a lot of pain being shared around, next few months. I certainly support the target of making aimed at reducing the public sector deficit and restoring the savings of 25% in those budgets over the next four confidence of the international markets in the British economy…There years. I have spent many years in business cutting costs are positives for business in terms of reduction in corporation tax in operations around the world and I feel that the 25% rates, extension of the enterprise finance guarantee scheme and figure is challenging and tough, but definitely achievable increase in the entrepreneurs’ relief, which indicates that the and necessary. Government are keen to promote business success. The Government must continue to find ways to support businesses, particularly Fourthly, I want to mention a group in our society small and medium-sized businesses, as their success is the best who are often overlooked and about whom I am often way of ensuring a sustainable economic recovery creating long-lasting reminded by my constituents—pensioners. We all know jobs and wealth.” the facts about how many of us are living and thriving That is what businesses in the hearts of our constituencies into old age these days, but after 13 years under Labour are saying. there are still 1.8 million pensioners living in poverty. Many of my retired constituents feel that the contribution that they have made throughout their lives to our economy Owen Smith: I ask the hon. Lady to reflect on the and society as a whole is not recognised as they struggle views of others in business. Ernst and Younghas already to live on their pensions or, if they save money, as they said that it feels the Government have not fully understood are penalised by taxation policies that seem unfair. I am the long-term financial consequences of the cuts, by delighted that we will now be able to restore some of which it means the reduction in demand in the economy. that respect for our older citizens by putting in place the May I also point to the view of an inward investor in my link between pensions and earnings from next April, constituency, GE Aircraft Engine Services Ltd, which and through the triple-lock guarantee. feels that the reductions in corporation tax will not offset the damage done to its ability to invest by the I met one of my spritely 70-year-olds the other day at reductions in capital allowances that manufacturing a surgery. He asked for the Government’s support in relies on? helping him to go on working. He said, “I’m fit and well, I love my job, I’m perfectly able to carry on working and I want to be able to continue to do so.” Mary Macleod: I understand what the hon. Gentleman I hope that I will be as energetic as him at his age, and I is saying, but I have been in business for 20 years, and I should like us to take people like him into account when could cite plenty of others, including Richard Lambert, we consider the future of the retirement age. director general of the CBI, and the OECD, which says the Budget is far-reaching and courageous, so we need Andrew Percy: My hon. Friend talks about support to have a balanced view. for older people. Does she agree that one of the biggest I believe very strongly in the enterprise-led economy costs for elderly people in the past 13 years has been the that we have put in place, and we have the building doubling of council tax that we saw under previous blocks in place to support future industry. That is why Governments? In north Lincolnshire, that was done I was pleased to hear that spending on many capital year after year by the Labour council. 391 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 392 Situation Situation Mary Macleod: I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. The run-up to the Budget was marked by a remarkable Friend. level of dangerous scaremongering by the party opposite. I commend the Government for their plan to increase The Chancellor has been marching from one television the tax allowance to £7,475, and I should like to see that studio to another and, like Don Quixote, he has continued go further. Perhaps that level will rise in the next few to tilt away at Greek windmills while the Chief Secretary years. In conclusion, this progressive Budget has set us and now the Business Secretary have been competing to off on a journey of change. It is well thought out and it be Sancho Panza, bobbing loyally along behind. gives us a route map for the next five years. I commend We are not remotely in the same position as Greece, the Budget and the courage that it shows in doing what yet time after time, Front Benchers and Back Benchers is right for the economy and the country. opposite have sought to raise the spectre of Greece to justify the approach behind the Budget. The truth is that this Budget puts at risk a fragile economic recovery. 6.37 pm On the OBR’s forecasts, growth will be down this year Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): as a result of measures in the Budget, and down next Yesterday’s Budget should be judged on three key tests. year too. Unemployment will be higher as a result of First, will it protect and enhance economic growth, and the measures in the Budget, which will cut jobs in the nurture an all too fragile recovery from the worst global public sector and the private sector too because, as my recession since the 1930s? Secondly, is it fair and will the hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge poorest and those least able to defend themselves be (Angela Smith) noted, many companies supply goods affected the least? Thirdly, less than two months after and services to the Government. The OBR acknowledges the general election, does it reflect the election manifestos that employment will drop by 100,000 as a result of this of the coalition Government? On each of those tests, Budget, and it is true to say that many outside voices the Government’s Budget is found wanting. expect the figure to be higher still. With tens of thousands more on the dole queue and employment levels down, it It would be remiss of me not to congratulate the hon. is fair to say that this is a return to traditional Tory Members for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew politics. Jones) and for Carlisle (John Stevenson) on their maiden speeches. The hon. Member for Harrogate and The Budget also fails the fairness test. It savages Knaresborough made a fluent and interesting maiden support for the poorest and most vulnerable. Child speech. Having initiated the first debate on social enterprises benefit will be cut, and tax credits reduced for families in this House, I welcomed in particular his interest in on low and modest incomes. Support for families with and support for social enterprises. He talked about his young children is being axed, and the VAT rise will hit constituency being affluent and having excellent schools; the poorest hardest. The Conservative party promised perhaps at another time, he might acknowledge more not to balance the Budget on the backs of the poorest, generously the part played by the excellent work of the yet they have done exactly that. The Financial Secretary previous Government in that respect. The hon. Member may not yet be aware of the damning verdict of the for Carlisle also made a fluent and interesting speech, Institute for Fiscal Studies on the fairness of this Budget, offering generous praise to his predecessor, Eric Martlew, but it has said that it will who continues to be well liked on both sides of the “hit the poorest hardest and…keep on hitting them more and House. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive more every year”. me for being unable to share his assessment that the The same point was made with considerable force by Budget was, although tough, also fair, but I shall come my hon. Friends the Members for Pontypridd (Owen to that later. Smith), for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), for Kingston This is the Conservative party’s Budget—no one seriously upon Hull North (Diana R. Johnson) and for Derby thinks that the Liberal Democrats were the driving North (Chris Williamson), and by the hon. Member for force behind it, despite the protestations of the Business Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). Secretary and others—and to listen to the Conservatives, one would think that there had not been a global Guy Opperman: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? recession. One would think that there was not a need to protect families or to keep demand in the economy, and Mr Thomas: Given the time, no. I apologise to the that the borrowing and other measures that the previous hon. Gentleman. Government took to stimulate the economy were not The Budget also breaks clear promises made to the needed. We took decisive action to invest in the economy British people by the coalition partners at the election. and to create the demand that the private sector needed The now Prime Minister told Jeremy Paxman in an to minimise business failures and job losses. interview in late April that his party had “absolutely no As the shadow Chancellor made clear, the measures plans” to raise VAT. He recognised then that VAT was that we took were continuing to have a positive impact. regressive and that it hit the poorest hardest. He said: There was a return to growth—fragile, yes, but it was a “It does, I absolutely promise you.” return to growth. Unemployment was stabilising and starting to fall, while tax receipts were up and borrowing The Deputy Prime Minister agreed that VAT was “very was lower than expected. The Office for Budget regressive”. He went further, making fear of Tory VAT Responsibility has made it clear that the measures taken plans a memorable part of his election campaigning. by the last Government are the reason why the economy Yet now, with the electorate having cast their votes, we is growing now. Indeed, those measures were part of have an immediate volte face from the parties opposite. Government spending plans which, as the shadow As my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor Chancellor pointed out, the party opposite supported made clear, in a classic effort to pull the wool over the until the end of 2008. public’s eyes, those on the Government Front Bench use 393 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 394 Situation Situation [Mr Thomas] My hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough spoke about the challenges in Harrogate. Labour measures to try to pretend that this Budget is He brings to the House extensive experience in business. fair. The charts deployed in the Red Book to justify that As someone who has contributed to the coffers of his fantasy claim fail to acknowledge the scale of benefit former employers, I know that Betty’s is well known for reductions that will not have worked their way through selling fat rascals, but my hon. Friend does not appear fully in the period covered. They certainly do not include to fit that description. I am sure that he will be a great the impact of looming cuts in public services that are champion for his community. likely to hit the poorest households the most, or of My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle talked about changes to housing benefit. I have a specific question the border relationship. Having been born in Scotland for the Financial Secretary: will he publish charts showing but now representing an English constituency, it is the impact of the Budget not just in 2012-13 but in heartening to see that not only the coalition Government future in years, by income distribution? but Members on both sides of the House who might It is not just Opposition Members who recognise the not be automatic England supporters have supported unfairness of the Budget. Robert Chote, the head of the the English team in its victory today. My hon. Friend IFS, has said: spoke well about the need to rebalance the economy, “The Budget looks less progressive, indeed somewhat regressive, which is one of the big themes of the Budget. I am sure when you take out the effect of measures that were inherited from it will be as effective in Carlisle as in the country as a the previous government—when you look further into the future whole. He will make a great advocate for his constituency than 2012-13 and when you include some other measures which in the House. the Treasury has chosen not to model.” Some Liberal Democrats—perhaps those such as the The emergency Budget addresses the most urgent Orange Book Liberals—will be entirely comfortable task facing our country and our economy: to put in with the unfairness of this Budget. Others on the Liberal place a credible plan to reduce the record deficit we have Democrat Benches need to find the courage of the inherited. As a result of the mess that the last Government convictions that they had before 6 May to challenge left behind, the Government have to borrow £1 for their Front Benchers. every £4 we spend, which is increasing the national debt by £3 billion each week. We cannot afford to let that go This is a Budget that puts economic growth at risk. It on at a time when fear about the sustainability of fails the fairness test. The poorest will suffer the most. sovereign debt is the greatest risk to the recovery of The IFS analysis blows away the pretence that we are all European economies. in this together. It is a Budget of broken promises. On VAT both coalition parties broke election promises. It is Failure to deal with the deficit is the greatest threat to a Budget that is overwhelmingly Thatcherite in tone growth. Failure to act now would mean higher interest and we will not support it. rates hitting businesses, hitting families and hitting the cost of repaying the Government’s debt. That would 6.45 pm mean more business failures and sharper rises in The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark unemployment, and would risk a catastrophic loss of Hoban): We have had a good debate about the impact of confidence and the end of the recovery. The Budget the emergency Budget on the growth of the British takes action now to restore the confidence in the economy economy over the years to come. The contributions that is needed to underpin the recovery. from my hon. Friends the Members for The Cotswolds The hon. Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), for Bournemouth East quoted from the IFS report. Let me quote from Moody’s (Mr Ellwood), for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett), commentary on the Budget: for Reading West (Alok Sharma), for Brentford and “The UK budget is supportive of the country’s AAA rating Isleworth (Mary Macleod) and for Caithness, Sutherland and stable outlook because it is a key step towards reversing the and Easter Ross (John Thurso) were passionate and significant deterioration in the government’s financial position well informed. There were contributions from the hon. that occurred over the past two years…Successful implementation Members for Hemsworth (Jon Trickett), for Kingston would return the government’s finances to a more sustainable upon Hull North (Diana R. Johnson), for Ogmore trend…the budget plan addresses the major concerns surrounding (Huw Irranca-Davies), for Penistone and Stocksbridge economic growth.” (Angela Smith), for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), for Derby Rating agencies endorse the message behind my right North (Chris Williamson), for Strangford (Jim Shannon) hon. Friend’s Budget—to tackle the deficit and ensure and for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas). The debate that there is a sound platform for economic growth in was thoughtful and informative. the future. I am pleased to see the right hon. Member for East A number of Members on both sides of the House Ham (Stephen Timms) in the Chamber—[HON.MEMBERS: raised issues about the impact of the Budget on the “Hear, hear.”] most vulnerable in society. Yes, there have been some Some maiden speeches were made. There were three difficult decisions about taxes and benefits, but let us in yesterday’s debate. My hon. Friends the Members for not forget the £2 billion extra that we have provided for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell), for Bedford (Richard Fuller) poorer families in receipt of the child tax credit, the and for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) £2 billion extra that has gone into pension credit over made excellent speeches about the impact the Budget the lifetime of this Parliament and the 800,000 people will have on their constituencies and the challenges it who have been taken out of the income tax bracket by will address. Today, we heard maiden speeches from the £1,000 increase in personal allowances. That is my hon. Friends the Members for Harrogate and evidence in our Budget of the coalition’s commitment Knaresborough (Andrew Jones) and for Carlisle (John to fairness, but we must also ensure that the economy is Stevenson). open for business. 395 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 Budget Resolutions and Economic 396 Situation Situation We will open up Britain for business by creating a the last general election, he stood on a platform of more competitive system for corporation tax, reducing about £40 billion in cuts. However, what marks this the rate from 28% today to just 24% over four years. Government out from our predecessor is, of course, That will give us the lowest corporation tax of any that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer major western economy, one of the most competitive has said that there will be no further cuts in capital rates in the G20 and the lowest rate that this country expenditure beyond those announced by the previous has ever known. However, the Budget is about supporting Governments and the projects that my right hon. Friend not just big businesses, but small businesses, too. We the Chief Secretary to the Treasury announced last will cut the small companies tax rate by reversing the week. The major difference is that we are prepared to previous Government’s plans to increase the rate next make the investment to sustain economic growth in the year to 22% and cutting it to 20% instead, thus benefiting future, but the previous Labour Government were not some 850,000 companies. As well as supporting businesses prepared to make that decision and had announced with lower rates, we need to give businesses certainty before the election savage cuts in capital investment. about the future, so we have published alongside the It is not just corporation tax reform that is needed to Budget a five-year plan to fundamentally reform the ensure that the economy continues to grow in future. corporation tax system, with lower rates, simpler rules There is widespread concern, as has been expressed by and greater certainty. Even with our reforms to capital hon. Members on both sides of the House, about the allowances, the manufacturing sector will still pay less importance of credit flowing to the business community. corporation tax under the Budget proposals that we Several hon. Members expressed concern about the announced yesterday. number of businesses in their constituencies that had A number of hon. Members, including the hon. been refused credit. That was why my right hon. Friend Member for Kingston upon Hull North, talked about the Chancellor announced the £200 million extension the regional impact. A number of hon. Members whose of the enterprise finance guarantee scheme, which will constituencies are outside the greater south-east spoke support £700 million of additional lending to small and in the debate, too. As the economy recovers, we must medium-sized enterprises until March 2011, benefiting restore the balance not only between the public and at least 2,000 small businesses. However, he announced private sectors, but across the different regions of Britain. in yesterday’s Budget that we will also bring forward a As someone who was born and brought up in the Green Paper before the summer recess on alternative north-east, I am acutely aware that the gap between the sources of funding for businesses so that they are not greater south-east and the rest of the country grew reliant only on bank finance. I believe that that will significantly under the last Government. Between 1998 make a major contribution towards ensuring that growth and 2008, for every private sector job generated in the continues in this country. north and midlands, 10 were created in London and the I have talked about the reforms to introduce a more south. The Budget sets out a new approach that empowers competitive corporation tax model in this country. In local leadership, generates local economic growth and the context of the regional package, I have also talked promotes regional job creation. As well as creating a about the schemes that will be set up to enable start-ups new regional growth fund worth £1 billion that will be in regions outside the greater south-east to benefit from focused on projects in the regions that will help to a national insurance holiday. Of course, one of the big stimulate economic growth, we will shortly announce a changes announced by my right hon. Friend was our new tax scheme to help to create new businesses in those reform to national insurance contributions. We made it regions where private sector growth is not strong enough. clear that we thought that Labour’s jobs tax would be For the next three years, anyone who sets up a new damaging to the economy. We want to support the business outside London, the south-east and the eastern growth of Britain’s businesses that will create jobs for region will be exempt from up to £5,000 of employer British people. national insurance contributions for each of their first 10 employees hired—up to £50,000 for new start-up The House will know that the previous Government businesses. That sends a tremendous signal to those planned a tax on jobs through a 1% increase in national businesses about the importance that they will play in insurance rates. The Budget reverses that negative effect reviving the economy and stimulating economic growth by increasing the threshold by £21 a week above indexation. in the future. The Treasury estimates that some 400,000 In one move, we are lifting 650,000 employees out of businesses will benefit, thus ensuring all parts of our the tax altogether. Of course, the measure will have a country benefit from a more balanced and sustainable significant benefit for regions, too. For example, there economic future. will be a £150 million benefit for businesses in the north-east, which will help to improve competitiveness. Huw Irranca-Davies: Will the hon. Gentleman assure Taken together, the measures set out in the Budget offer us that one of the greatest drivers of economic prosperity a stable and consistent platform for a private sector over the next few years—high-speed rail electrification, recovery. They provide the element of growth that is which we have heard about in the Budget—will extend needed alongside our necessary measures to cut spending beyond Bristol? We are always told that investment in and increase taxes to restore Britain’s fiscal position. the railway from London to Bristol benefits south Wales, I referred earlier to the number of hon. Members but we cannot expect the Welsh Assembly Government, who contributed to today’s debate, but one thing was who have no tax-raising powers, to fund an extension missing from all the speeches made by Labour Members. to Llanelli. Not one of them uttered a word of apology for the deficit. We saw not a single sign of humility for the mess Mr Hoban: That is a matter for the Secretaries of in which they have left the country, and they did not State for Wales and for Transport, but the hon. Gentleman give a single credible idea to tackle the legacy that they has made his plea for more Government spending. At left the people of this country.At a time when Governments 397 Budget Resolutions and Economic 23 JUNE 2010 398 Situation [Mr Hoban] Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority throughout the world are taking serious measures to restore public finances and economic confidence, it is remarkable that the Labour party is stuck in the past, 7pm refusing to accept responsibility for the problems that it The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of left the country and that the coalition Government the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): I beg to inherited. Labour Members are stuck in a world of move, their own. The mainstream political debate across the That Mr Nicholas Brown, Bob Russell, Laura Sandys, Mr Charles world has left them behind. They are stranded and in Walker and Ms Rosie Winterton be appointed under Schedule 3 denial about the scale of the problems that they left this to the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 as members of the country. It has been left to the coalition to lead the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards debate on tackling those problems. Authority until the end of the present Parliament. The Budget pays the bills of the past and plans for The motion sets out the nominees for membership of the future. It takes the tough decisions that Labour the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary ducked. Labour Members say that £40 billion of cuts Standards Authority, the composition and functions of were outlined in their March 2010 Budget, but not one which are defined in the Parliamentary Standards Act of them has been able to say where those cuts would 2009. I remind the House that the Committee is a fall. Our Budget brings spending under control and statutory body established under the Act, not a Committee tackles the deficit. It takes difficult decisions on curbing of this House, which is why its members are being our deficit, but at the same time, the cuts in corporation nominated by a Government motion. tax—reducing the headline rate for large businesses and There are five nominees, who will sit alongside three cutting the small companies rate to 20%—the reforms ex officio members. The first of those ex officio members to our tax system that make Britain more competitive is the Speaker. The others are my right hon. Friend the and the reversing of Labour’s jobs tax send a clear Leader of the House of Commons and the Chairman signal that Britain is once again open for business. of the Standards and Privileges Committee. The nominees The Budget tackles the toxic legacy left by Labour. It are drawn from recommendations from both sides of will remove uncertainty from businesses and boost the House. confidence. It is about the values set out in our coalition agreement—values of fairness, freedom and responsibility. Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): My hon. It marks a radical change from the economic policies of Friend is listing excellent members of the Committee the past, offering transparency where before there was and I am sure that it will be first class, but will the opacity. It offers a change— Committee have the opportunity to report to the House? Some Speaker’s Committees have a quarter-hour slot 7pm for question time in the House, and it would be most useful if that Committee reported to the House via one Mr Speaker: Order. Debate to be resumed what day? of its members. In that way, we could keep updated and ask some questions. The Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty’s Treasury (Angela Watkinson): Monday next, Mr Speaker. Mr Heath: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. The duties and functions of the Committee Mr Speaker: Monday next. We are grateful. are fairly closely defined by the Act. Its only functions The debate stood adjourned (Standing Order No. 9(3)). are to ratify the nomination of IPSA’s chair and board Ordered, That the debate be resumed tomorrow. members before they are put to the House, and to approve the estimate—a very important function—so there are perhaps limited requirements for reporting, but I think he makes a valid point. We have such an arrangement for the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission. I shall certainly take his suggestion on board and see whether an arrangement can be made for the Committee to be answerable to this House. As I said, the nominees are drawn from recommendations from both sides of the House and I very much hope that they will be accepted by both sides. I commend the motion to the House.

7.2 pm Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I welcome the setting up in this Parliament of the new Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, as defined in the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, amended by the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010. I add my support to the suggestion that we are reaching the point where we need some feedback. Hon. Members have raised a number of issues and having 399 Speaker’s Committee for the IPSA23 JUNE 2010 Speaker’s Committee for the IPSA 400 some sort of question time slot would be helpful. We public holiday, and in Scotland, St Andrew’s day is a know that the public want to have full confidence in our voluntary bank holiday. It is a wonderful opportunity system here in Parliament, but it is equally important to celebrate a country’s traditions and heritage. I cannot that Members of Parliament have full confidence in the let the petition pass— system, and perhaps that is what we need to develop. I welcome the nomination of those Members listed in Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. the motion. I hope that it helps the House to move The hon. Lady is presenting a petition, and she is forward on this issue. allowed to say, according to the procedures of the House, a few words, but she cannot make a speech, and Question put and agreed to. I fear that she is drifting into doing so. If she can make her remarks crisp in presenting her petition, I should be PETITIONS grateful.

Transfer of Post Office Facilities (Viewpark, North Jessica Lee: I shall do so. Thank you, Madam Deputy Lanarkshire) Speaker. Turning to the prayer, the petition states: 7.4 pm The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to bring forward proposals to make St Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) George’s Day a public holiday in England. (Lab): Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been asked to Following is the full text of the petition: present to the House this petition from a large number [The Petition of residents of the Erewash constituency of constituents concerning the transfer of post office and others, facilities at Viewpark in north Lanarkshire. Declares that England is one of very few countries in The petition states: the world that does not have a public holiday to celebrate The Petition of residents of Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill its national day; notes that St Patrick’s Day is bank constituency and others, holiday in Northern Ireland, and that St Andrew’s Day is Declares that the proposed transfer of Post Office facilities a voluntary public holiday in Scotland; and further declares from Market Place, Viewpark to Old Edinburgh Road, Viewpark that everyone who is part of England should be able to is unacceptable for social, economic and community reasons. celebrate its traditions, its history, its heritage and the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons English way of life with a public holiday on St George’s Day. urges the Government to take all possible steps to prevent the proposed transfer of facilities. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to bring forward proposals And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P000838] to make St George’s Day a public holiday in England. St George’s Day (Public Holiday) And the Petitioners remain, etc.] [P000839] 7.5 pm The Vice-Chamberlain of Her Majesty’s Household Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con): I am grateful, Madam (Mr Mark Francois): On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to present this Deputy Speaker. On a technical matter, we should like petition. There are no fewer than 2,481 signatures on a to request that the order for resuming debate on the petition urging the Government to consider making Budget refer to “tomorrow” and not “Monday next”. I St George’s day a public holiday. I am grateful to the hope that, with the approval of the Chair, that can be company, George’s Tradition, which is an award-winning accepted. fish and chip chain based in Erewash and surrounding constituencies, which has collated the petition. Madam Deputy Speaker: Thank you for that point of England is one of the few countries without a public order, which is extremely helpful to the House. I understand holiday for its patron saint. Indeed, the House will be that it is within my powers as Chair to accept that aware that in Northern Ireland, St Patrick’s day is a request. The record will be corrected. 401 23 JUNE 2010 Finsbury Health Centre 402

Finsbury Health Centre Indeed, they are in good nick underneath the paint. The murals encouraged healthy living, with slogans such as: Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Newmark.) “Live outdoors as much as you can” and “Fresh air night and day”. 7.8 pm The health centre was an oasis for the people of Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) Finsbury, who mostly lived in small, dark and badly (Lab): Finsbury health centre in my constituency is a ventilated slum tenements. For all the talk of its design, grade I-listed, purpose-built community health centre. however, we politicians appreciate the other way in The building is famous internationally and was the which it was entirely revolutionary: it was financed by proud product of Finsbury’s Labour council in the public funds—a precursor to the national health service. 1930s. It is a unique and ground-breaking building, and When the centre opened, it incorporated a TB clinic, a real palace of the people. a foot clinic, a dental surgery and a solarium. It had Finsbury health centre is the product of modernist facilities for cleaning and disinfecting bed clothes, a architecture and socialist reforming zeal. The council’s lecture theatre and a mortuary. Today, the centre brings 1930s socialist leader, Alderman Harold Riley, had together GP services and other health provision, everything ambitions of urban revitalisation in Finsbury. The council from community dentistry to physiotherapy and services wanted to build a comprehensive health centre amid for stammering children. Indeed, I should declare an public baths, libraries and nurseries. In the end, only the interest, because my family use the dentistry services of health centre was built. Dr Mysa at the centre. Along with Chuni Lai Katial, chairman of the public Although the centre was a precursor to the NHS, it health committee, Alderman Riley proposed plans for a continues to show the way and is the model for the health service that brought together the borough’s disparate inner-London hub-and-spoke polyclinics that we now services. In the 1930s in Finsbury, lice, rickets, and talk about. The centre was in fact the first polyclinic, diphtheria were common, and most residents suffered and it would be a great shame to see all the lessons from poor housing and atrocious, vitamin-deficient diets. learned from that great building, which has been used Whooping cough and TB were widespread and responsible over the past 70 years, simply thrown away. for thousands of deaths, only 10 years before the national Despite the health centre’s illustrious history, it is health service was founded. However, in 1938 the council under threat. Although Islington primary care trust has approached Tecton, whose lead architect was Lubetkin, worked for many years on plans to repair and improve and that was the first municipal commission of a modernist the building, it decided two years ago to throw away the design. buildings and start again. It is almost impossible to find Lubetkin was born in Georgia in 1901 and watched space in south Islington and Finsbury to co-locate that the 1917 revolution unfold while he studied art in range of health services, and the plan seems to be to Moscow. His attitude was: re-provide only GP premises; all other services will be “Nothing is too good for ordinary people”, dispersed to other venues. and he applied that to all his designs. In the Finsbury There is talk of trying to find another health centre, health centre he wanted to create but those of us who know the area believe that that is “a language of architectural forms, which, being firmly based on more of an aspiration than a reality. We have a potential the aesthetics of our age, conveys the optimistic message of our polyclinic in our midst, and we are simply giving it time—the century of the common man.” away. That is a step in the wrong direction, and if the Lubetkin’s vision was that the health centre should be centre is closed, my constituents, rather than moving like a club. He wanted to encourage people to use its towards integrated health care, face losing a pioneering services by making them feel comfortable using them. and excellent example of integrated health care in a They can just “drop in”, Lubetkin later said, and in the fantastic, beautiful and unique building. Finsbury health centre he created a light, bright, open Finsbury health centre needs many urgent repairs. It building. needs a lift, for example. It also needs modern wiring, The entrance had red columns, azure ceilings and new plumbing, windows that close and working heating chocolate brown floors, and glass bricks and walls were and ventilation systems, but a lot of investment has used to bring a light, airy feel. It was designed to recently been made, including in roofing, concrete repairs contrast with the gloom of the surrounding slums, and and a new wing. Islington primary care trust argues the glass walls sparkled in the sun. In a phrase that we that, by using its LIFT—local improvement finance might not hear modern men use when describing a trust——partner, it could refurbish the health centre, building, Lubetkin said that it was to be but that it would cost £400,000 a year more than “as beautiful as the hair of a beautiful young girl in the summer building new GP premises on an adjoining site, and that sunshine.” that is more affordable. However, that estimate is based The building involved contributions from many who on a stage 1 costing exercise by the LIFT company, and went on to be leaders in design and construction. The it was not carried out by an expert in historic buildings. concrete structure was devised in collaboration with A great deal of work has been done to advance the Ove Arup, a concrete engineer who was to work a lot argument for keeping the health services at Finsbury with Tecton and went on to design and engineer other health centre. In May 2007, I wrote to the PCT urging it concrete icons, such as the Sydney opera house. The to keep the health centre. In March 2008, I met the chief health centre has murals by Gordon Cullen. They were executive and the chair of the PCT confirming that I whitewashed during the second world war, but I hope was opposed to the PCT’s plan to sell it off. In May that one day they will be restored to their former glory. 2008, I had a meeting with the PCT, English Heritage 403 Finsbury Health Centre23 JUNE 2010 Finsbury Health Centre 404 and the London borough of Islington to try to bring Islington council’s health and well-being committee the parties together. In June 2008, I met the Heritage recently issued a report on the future of Finsbury Lottery Fund to lobby for funding for the health centre. health centre. It found that 30% to 40% of patients In August 2008, I chased the PCT over an application access more than one service at the centre. That enables to EC1 New Deal for Communities to see whether it them to make appointments for treatment on the same would be possible to get money from the new deal to day, meaning that they are able to visit the centre on one pay towards the health centre. It would seem that, occasion rather than several. The committee’s 93-page although there had been a previous application to EC1 report provides a detailed examination of the future of NDC for funding for Finsbury health centre, neither the health centre and raises a number of concerns and EC1’s board nor the PCT could locate the minutes. In recommendations. It examines the assumptions behind September 2008, I met the PCT again and pushed the the PCT’s cost estimates and calls for a proper feasibility argument that we should keep the health centre open. study of the cost of refurbishment and for future In November 2008, I asked the PCT to provide full maintenance of the buildings to be undertaken by a financial details and lobbied the then Secretary of State competent specialist. for Health to retain the health centre. The evidence that the committee received shows a In January 2009, I wrote to the Secretary of State wide discrepancy in cost estimates and opinions on again, pressing for Finsbury health centre to continue fitness for purpose given by several witnesses and NHS to deliver health services to my constituents. Between Islington. I have to say that whenever I have met NHS January and June, the local health scrutiny committee Islington it seems to come up with a new figure as to referred Finsbury health centre to the Secretary of how much this would cost. The committee also found State, who then referred it to the independent that NHS Islington had failed to factor in the significant reconfiguration panel, which then referred it back to cost of disposing of the site. Islington for local resolution. There has been no local The committee considered the question of funding resolution. and found that there are new avenues to explore. A There were further inquiries by the health scrutiny charity specialising in the restoration of historic buildings, committee, and I met EC1 NDC again to ask whether it Heritage of London Trust Operations, told the committee could provide some capital to put towards Finsbury that it was confident of attracting funding for restoration. health centre. I also met the PCT to that end. The English Heritage made it clear to the committee that the health scrutiny committee has been unable to reach social history of the building as a health care centre was agreement with the PCT. We therefore think that the vital to the listing, and that the possibility of accessing matter is likely to be sent back to the Secretary of State. funds was much greater if the building were in its That is why I have applied for a debate now, in order to original use. flag up this extremely important issue and to put the Finsbury has already seen its magnificent town hall new Government on notice. sold off for a pittance by the then Liberal Democrat Last year, Islington council’s health and well-being council and we do not want another part of our precious scrutiny committee referred Finsbury health centre to heritage sold off for peanuts. Will the Minister give his the Secretary of State’s independent reconfiguration assurance that Finsbury health centre will continue to panel because the PCT had failed to consult the public provide health services to my constituents and that no properly about the centre’s future. The reconfiguration agreement to close the centre will be given if the decision panel referred the decision back to Islington for local is referred to the Secretary of State again? resolution, and as things stand the committee has been Finsbury health centre started 10 years before the unable to reach agreement. NHS and showed the way as to how we should look after people, particularly the poor. It is a fantastic Will the Minister indicate whether he will retain the building and a fantastic political achievement, and the independent reconfiguration panel and explain the next people of Finsbury are immensely proud of it. We steps if a decision is referred back to the Secretary of should not lose it now. If the Minister has time, I would State? I am very concerned that NHS Islington is allowing appreciate him coming to visit the health centre with the health centre to deteriorate while a decision is me, where I will introduce him to my dentist. awaited. English Heritage recently met NHS Islington to discuss the need for urgent repairs to prevent deterioration having a serious and detrimental impact on the centre. 7.21 pm Those of us who use it regularly can see it deteriorate The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr before our eyes. Such deterioration will result in the Paul Burstow): I congratulate the hon. Member for costs of repair increasing even further. Islington South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) on My constituents feel very strongly about retaining the securing this debate on an issue that is clearly very health centre. Members of the Save Finsbury Health important to her and many of her constituents, who Centre campaign, some of whom are here today, have have campaigned for many years. I thank her for taking attracted a great deal of support from Islington and the time for this debate, not least because it has educated beyond, including internationally, in their fight for the me about some initiatives that were taken prior to the health centre. Last January, we presented a petition of foundation of the NHS. Some of those were clearly 1,850 signatures to the Department of Health; it now inspirational and influential in shaping the ideas that has more than 2,100 signatures. The area surrounding informed the foundation of the NHS. Finsbury health centre is a significantly deprived one, Earlier today, I had a look at the plans, so I saw for and the patients it serves are among the most vulnerable myself just what a huge beacon of hope a building of of those in Islington. I am very concerned that patients that sort would have been in the 1930s in the area that who access existing services at the centre will not continue the hon. Lady describes. I understand the strong feelings to do so if those services are relocated. that she has expressed and the powerful case she makes. 405 Finsbury Health Centre23 JUNE 2010 Finsbury Health Centre 406

[Mr Paul Burstow] disabled access. In addition, reception and other patient areas are badly laid out and cramped, and the centre is The hon. Lady asks for an assurance on the building. in a poor state of general repair. Criticism could be I will amplify the reasons for this in a moment, but such levelled at the PCT for failing to make those investments, an assurance would prejudge the process, which I am but nevertheless those problems remain. I am also told sure she would not expect me to do in the House that it is proving difficult for the centre to provide tonight. However, I want to be as helpful as possible. In patients with dignity and privacy, about which we should setting out the case tonight, she rehearsed some of the all be concerned. The hon. Lady has already told us important history—it goes back more than 70 years. about the status of the building. It is a grade I listed Having seen the pictures and the plans, I share her view building, which inevitably places additional restrictions of the significance of the building, which clearly goes on what work can be done to rectify the problems I have beyond the boundaries of the London borough of identified. Islington. On the other hand, the local health and well-being The building’s design was ahead of its time. I am told review committee has published a report questioning that the centre was the first of its kind, and the hon. the PCT’S conclusions and has raised important concerns Lady outlined the many services that the centre has about access to health care for some of the most vulnerable provided over the years. It was indeed a visionary groups in Islington. endeavour. Emily Thornberry: Lubetkin designed the building Emily Thornberry: The point is that it was the first with the idea of flexibility in mind, as was highlighted publicly funded health centre in the country. Although to the PCT and Islington council when I was having it was primarily funded by a local authority, that local discussions with English Heritage. Although it is a authority showed the way to a future national Government. grade I listed building, there is a huge amount of good will in terms of what can be moved and how things can Mr Burstow: Such initiative on the part of local be changed within the building, because everyone wants, authorities is perhaps something that we should applaud if possible, for the building not to be mothballed, but to and learn more from for the future even today. continue to be a living, breathing building. When I was preparing for the debate, it was drawn to my attention that the architect of the centre, Lubetkin, Mr Burstow: I hope we can find a way to preserve it was involved in the design of the penguin pool at as a living, breathing building and a testament to its London zoo. I have had the pleasure of visiting London history. zoo with my children, so I recognise the range and Finsbury health centre could be modernised, as the scope of his designs. As the hon. Lady said, when the health and well-being review committee has said. The Finsbury health centre was opened in 1938, Lubetkin hon. Lady’s point about the co-location of services was remarked: made in the representations from the overview and “Nothing is too good for ordinary people”. scrutiny committee. However, the PCT would say that considerable financial costs are associated with that. It He was quite right too. The notion of the health centre has estimated that the capital costs of £9.1 million to as a palace of the people is important. refurbish the health centre could translate into about Lubetkin was ahead of his time, but that motto £1 million a year over 25 years. By contrast, it says that resonates today, because all NHS staff, not just those at the PCT could provide a new building somewhere the Finsbury health centre, take it to heart and practise else in the area and that the rent for that would be it every day. They have played, and continue to play, an £600,000 per annum. On that basis, the NHS asserts essential role in improving health within the London that it would be paying a premium of £400,000 per year borough of Islington and elsewhere, and I can understand to keep the Finsbury health centre open. why the centre is viewed with such affection and passion I understand the trust has pursued various sources to by local residents, and why this matter has aroused such fund the refurbishment, including the Heritage Lottery strong feeling. Fund, but these have not been available due to the I need, however, to rehearse some pros and cons. I eligibility criteria used. With this in mind, clearly there understand that the future of the Finsbury health centre is an important issue that needs scrutinising about the has been under discussion and debate for at least 20 years, costs and benefits of keeping the health centre open. and that more recently Councillor Martin Clute, the Would that money be better spent on providing services chair of the Islington overview and scrutiny committee, to local people elsewhere rather than in the existing has played an important role in leading the debate building? There is an opportunity cost here—contested about the relevant priorities. I am also told that the perhaps, but a cost none the less. primary care trust and Islington council’s health and On the Islington new deal committee, I understand well-being review committee are continuing to find that representations were made, about which the hon. ways forward and to discuss this matter. Lady has talked, but I gather that they were rejected last There are strong arguments on both sides, many of December by the committee and the moneys not made which the hon. Lady has rehearsed. For instance, we available. However, I think that I can give her some have to consider the view that what was state of the art hope in respect of announcements that the Government 70 years ago may not be well suited to the demands and made a few weeks ago on the principles that we see delivery of 21st-century health care. The PCT has told being critical to how we reconfigure services in the me, in briefings I have received, that there are real future. That is clearly relevant to this controversial limitations to the centre in its current form. For instance, issue, because it is important that neither I nor the there are problems meeting statutory requirements on Secretary of State should be taking sides in the debate 407 Finsbury Health Centre23 JUNE 2010 Finsbury Health Centre 408 that is taking place locally. It is important that the plans against the criteria that the Secretary of State has matter is resolved locally and, only if it cannot be, that set out. I would urge the hon. Lady to engage with and Ministers then become involved. challenge the PCT to ensure that it is doing just that. The issue should be resolved by the PCT and the It is particularly important that the PCT works with local health and well-being review committee working local GPs and commissioners. Furthermore, it is not with patient groups, clinicians and, more generally, the just the overview and scrutiny committee that needs to local authority to reach an acceptable solution. I recognise take a view; the whole of the London borough of that change in the NHS has always been a problem, in Islington council needs to form a view as well. I strongly terms of how it is handled locally. It has certainly been believe that it is in everybody’s interest that the issue is an issue in the past—I have seen that in my own resolved quickly. It has been going on for far too long, constituency—and that is often why decisions have and I understand the hon. Lady’s frustrations. What we provoked the deep concerns and anxieties that the hon. need is a resolution that addresses those concerns in the Lady has described this evening. That is why the way suggested by the Secretary of State to look at Government are determined to do things differently, in reconfigurations. a way that gives MPs, the public and particularly clinicians I hope that a swift resolution is possible, but there is the opportunity to shape the decision-making process. always the possibility that the local health and well-being That is why the Government have already announced review committee will still consider the outcome an immediate moratorium on all pending service changes. unacceptable and refer it to the Secretary of State. The Indeed, we have required NHS London to look again at hon. Lady asked me how that would be dealt with by the entire Healthcare for London strategy. the Department. The answer is that there will continue The Secretary of State for Health has set out four to be an independent process of reconfiguration review crucial tests that all future service changes must now to offer the Secretary of State advice in undertaking his pass. First, they must have the support of GP arbitration and decision-making responsibilities at that commissioners. Secondly, arrangements for public and final stage. patient engagement, including local authorities, must I recognise that these are difficult decisions, and they be strengthened. Thirdly, there must be greater clarity quite rightly provoke debate and discussion—and, in about the clinical evidence used to underpin any proposals. this case, disagreement. I am afraid that not all decisions Fourthly, any proposals must take into account the can be made here in Whitehall or Westminster by Ministers, need to develop and support patient choice. The whole and we certainly should not seek to dictate. However, point is to ensure that all decisions that affect local what is important to me as a Minister is the integrity of communities are taken by local communities, with particular the decision-making process. By seeking the support of reference to what clinicians think is the best solution, GPs and local people, basing decisions on clear evidence, based on robust clinical evidence. The point that the and ensuring that all changes improve patient choice, hon. Lady made about co-location needs to be considered we believe that we can achieve a better health care in that regard. system for the people of Islington—one that is affordable What does all that mean for Finsbury health centre? and cost-effective. That is what I now expect from It means inviting patients, GPs, clinicians and the local NHS Islington. council to play a fuller role in deciding what should The hon. Lady will continue to play an important happen next, sharing responsibility for deciding on the part in that, ensuring that all the sources of funding are best way to secure those important services. I understand understood and can be brought to bear. I hope that she that further local discussions are taking place between will engage with the PCT and the local authority to get the PCT and the health and well-being review committee the long-term solution that delivers health care that is about its report and how the PCT will respond to it, fit for purpose and is what local people want. which it will within the next few weeks. I stress that it is vital that the PCT and the local health and well-being Question put and agreed to. review committee continue to work together with local groups to find a resolution to the problem. However, 7.34 pm the PCT tells me that it is in the process of reviewing its House adjourned.

69WH 23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 70WH

Although there is no guarantee that a treatment that Westminster Hall is tested on tissue samples and appears safe will not cause harm to a living person, currently the various techniques involving live tissue samples are the closest Wednesday 23 June 2010 we can get to simulating the use of a particular treatment on a real patient. Basically all drugs are tested on human cell lines, but not all of them are tested on [MR JOE BENTON in the Chair] human tissue, whose reactions are closer to the behaviour of normal cells in the human body than cell lines in an Human Tissue (Availability) artificial environment. As well as posing a potential risk to the health of Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting subjects, unsuccessful clinical trials also cost a great be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb.) deal in time and resources. One of the biggest barriers to the development of new treatments for diseases is the 9.30 am huge costs and the financial risk involved in trialling Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): The issue of treatments, as there is always a risk that they will not making samples of human tissue available for use in work. Many drug companies expect that nine out of medical research may seem obscure at first glance, but it 10 drugs taken forward will not reach production. That has a huge impact on some of the other issues that we risk can never be eliminated, but the use of live human commonly discuss in this place, including the development tissue samples can rule out some unsuccessful drugs of new medical treatments for common diseases, the before trials are carried out. That can reduce the costs. safety of patients treated by the NHS, and the ever- Another reason for using human tissue samples is controversial matter of scientific experimentation on that it may reduce the need for experiments on animals. animals. In today’s debate I shall discuss how increasing I shall touch only briefly on that point, but it is an issue the availability of human tissue to the research community on which many Members, like many of our constituents, would be to our advantage, and shall suggest ways in feel strongly; other hon. Members may want to speak which the Department of Health might help to make further about it. I accept that some testing on animals is tissue samples more accessible. still necessary for medical research, but of course we I first became aware of the issue because of life should pursue alternatives wherever possible, in line sciences activity in my constituency.Glasgow is unfortunate with the approach of replacement, refinement and in having one of the highest cancer rates in Europe, but reduction. Despite the benefits of tissue research that I that means that it has become a world-class centre of have explained, vast quantities of residual surgical tissue excellence. The Beatson research centre is based in my are regularly incinerated as clinical waste. As a result, constituency, just outside Glasgow, and a new translational there is a shortage of human tissue samples for research. research centre is due to be built alongside it shortly. Many of the diseases for which treatments could be The area is also a hub for other companies that work developed by such research are common, and all hon. in the life sciences industry, such as the biomedical Members present for the debate will know someone research company Biopta, which is based in Bearsden in who has suffered from them. Breast Cancer Campaign East Dunbartonshire. Biopta uses fresh samples of human reports: tissue to test new medical treatments before they get to “There is a serious lack of access to breast cancer tissue the stage of clinical trial. Those tissue samples have available for breast cancer research. This access issue is hampering progress in breast cancer research: developing new treatments, been removed from patients during surgery and the finding the causes of breast cancer and discovering new breast parts not needed for diagnosis or therapy have been cancer genes can only be achieved if breast tissue is available to donated, with the patient’s consent, for use by researchers. scientists across the UK and worldwide.” Tissue is therefore not removed for the purposes of In this country one woman in nine will be diagnosed research; it is removed during surgical procedures anyway, with breast cancer in her lifetime and 1,000 women and most often to help in making a diagnosis, such as seven men die from it every month. during a biopsy. A sample is taken, and in some cases an entire lump may be removed, but usually only a tiny Another common disease for which no cure has been amount of it is needed on a slide for diagnosis by found is Parkinson’s disease, with which someone in the examination under a microscope, and the rest is either UK is diagnosed every hour. Researchers in the UK are incinerated or stored for use by researchers. looking to develop new drugs that could slow down, stop or even reverse the condition, and perhaps find a When I visited Biopta, the chief executive, David cure. According to Parkinson’s UK: Bunton, explained the benefits of testing with human tissue. First, testing new treatments on tissue samples “A key challenge is that there is a shortage of human tissue, including intestinal tissue from the gut, available for research. can help to protect those who volunteer as subjects in There are then difficulties associated with obtaining it when it clinical trials from harm. I am sure that hon. Members actually becomes available. We would therefore welcome any have all seen adverts in newspapers, or perhaps in a move to increase the amount of tissue which is retained for doctor’s surgery or hospital, looking for people to give research purposes, including that which has been removed during their time to participate in a study of a new medical surgery. For the first time, it would allow researchers to look at treatment. Sadly, we have also all heard of clinical trials changes in parts of the body in people who are living with that have gone badly wrong, when people have become Parkinson’s.” seriously ill; some have even died. By testing treatments If tissue samples are to be used for research purposes, on human tissue samples first, it is possible to rule out a number of things need to happen. First, the tissue some potentially harmful treatments before they are donor needs to consent to the use of their tissue for the tried out on human subjects in clinical trials. purpose of research. Secondly, tissue needs to be stored 71WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 72WH

[Jo Swinson] The situation in Scotland is slightly different. Although the Human Tissue Act 2004 applies in Scotland, in an appropriate condition, and thirdly there needs to the Human Tissue Authority is responsible north of the be a mechanism for making researchers aware of what border only for transplantation, not for regulating the tissue is stored where. As to consent, clearly it is important use of tissue for research. However, the National Research that patients should have the final say in how their Ethics Service is UK-wide, so I see no reason why tissue is used, but the current process for gathering procedures for gaining consent for the use of tissue consent is clearly not working. In a submission to the cannot also be UK-wide; we would then have some Academy of Medical Sciences, the Human Tissues Working consistency for those having operations, whether they Party, which includes a range of groups including the live in Dundee or Doncaster. Safer Medicines Trust and Biopta, wrote: The Human Tissues Working Party writes: “Respect for patients’rights and wishes must always be paramount, “Evidence suggests that the vast majority of patients agree to and current regulatory requirements are very good at ensuring their surplus tissues being used in research. Moreover, they are that anyone who may not wish to donate their tissues does not do equally happy for their tissues to be used by academic, biotech or so.” pharmaceutical laboratories, as they understand that many players However, the submission continues: are required to bring new treatments to patients.” “The widespread desire amongst members of the public to Although no nationwide figures are available, research contribute to medical research in this way frequently goes unfulfilled by the NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde health board because many potential donors are not made aware of the possibilities shows that only 5% of surgical patients in the area were of donation. The situation is often exacerbated by what is widely being given the option to donate residual tissue. One viewed as a complex and time-consuming bureaucratic process, way to increase that figure would be to standardise time constraints amongst staff, a lack of appreciation amongst surgical consent forms across the country, ensuring that hospital staff of the importance of high quality tissues.” the option is always included. I discussed the idea last year with representatives from the Human Tissue Authority, Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The hon. Lady but they argued that researchers and foundation trusts has hit on the key point: often people are just not asked. were likely to resent attempts to impose such a one-size- As with cord blood, for example, I think that if the uses fits-all solution, as they all have different research systems of the tissue and the benefits that can come from it are in place. explained, people will say yes. However, people will Perhaps more importantly, the widespread view, generally be asked at a vulnerable time and may be articulated by the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside, nervous about what is happening and why, and that is seems to be that when patients are about to undergo an issue that should be addressed. surgery, they may not be in the best frame of mind to make decisions about how their tissue might be used. Jo Swinson: The hon. Gentleman is right. Often people They receive a great deal of information at this stage, are not asked, and the timing of the request is a question including legal and medical information, which may be to be considered. overwhelming; on top of that, they will understandably be nervous about undergoing surgery. Surgeons may There is little public awareness of the need for live also find it inconvenient. A surgeon at one London tissue, and it is fair to say that most people would never hospital told the Safer Medicines Trust that surgeons think of proactively offering to donate tissue samples simply do not have time to explain to patients the for research. As the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside benefits of donating tissue and simply tick the “no” box (Mark Tami) has said, that is not uppermost in the on behalf of their patients. mind of someone approaching a surgical procedure. The Greater Glasgow and Clyde health board is Therefore, we need to ensure that patients are routinely taking a great interest in the matter, thanks particularly asked whether they would like to donate. to the efforts of Professor Barry Gusterson at the Currently, it is up to each hospital trust to design and university of Glasgow. It says that pre-surgical assessments implement its own policy for gaining consent. Before a could present the best opportunity to discuss the question patient undergoes surgery, he or she will always be with patients, and is now looking to make that standard asked to sign a consent form giving the hospital the practice. There is the potential, with IT developments, right to operate, and that would also seem like a good for patients checking in for pre-surgical appointments opportunity to ask for consent for the use of their tissue to be given information about tissue donation, and the for research. Indeed, many hospitals do that, although opportunity at that point to click a box on the screen. many more do not. However, we need to ensure that patients have information Last year, I submitted a freedom of information about what will happen to their tissue if they give request to every acute trust in England and every health consent. The health board has produced an information board in Scotland, asking for a copy of their surgical leaflet for patients that explains how and why tissue is consent forms. I found that, in England, 39% of hospital stored by researchers, and for how long. That is a trusts have an option on their consent form for patients brilliant example of how information could be disseminated. to donate tissue for research but that 61% do not. In I shall send the Minister a copy, and suggest that she Scotland, the situation is even worse—29% of health share it with hospital trusts in England, Wales and boards include it on their consent form, but 71% do Northern Ireland as an example of best practice. not. Of those trusts that do not include the option on The Scottish Government are working with schools the form, some said that they had a policy of requiring to promote the benefits of joining the NHS donor their staff to ask patients verbally for consent; but register, giving information to young people about how others told me that they do not take tissue for research the register works, and offering real life stories about purposes at all. people who have received transplants and the new lease 73WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 74WH of life that they now enjoy. A similar scheme could be biobanking organisation onCore has tried to set up a developed for use throughout the UK to make people virtual network of tissue banks to share tissue with more aware of the research need for surplus surgical researchers across the country, but it has had limited tissues. success. In the longer term, we might even aim to reach the I maintain that the problem is not one of funding. stage where hospital staff and the public are so well- Primarily, we need better co-ordination and implementation informed about the need for surplus tissue for medical of the processes that need to be implemented, as well as research that a system of presumed consent could be greater awareness among health professionals and members implemented. That would, of course, need to follow a of the public about the importance of human tissue national education campaign to explain the benefits of research. Far too often, valuable tissue is incinerated research on human tissue. rather than being collected for research purposes, even The debate about whether consent for organ donation though collection is not difficult. It is a matter of should be opt-in or opt-out has been the subject of spreading best practice, giving information to hospital heated debate in this place. Indeed, my friend Dr Evan staff and patients and making the gaining of consent Harris, the former Member for Oxford West and Abingdon, part of the routine of surgical operations. When tissue introduced a Bill that would have brought in a system of is collected, it is not being made sufficiently accessible presumed consent; under it, people would have to have to researchers. I hope that the Minister will tell us opted out of it if they did not want to donate organs. In whether the Department of Health is able to facilitate that case, of course, the debate was about organs for greater co-ordination across the NHS, and among academic transplant rather than tissue for research purposes, and research institutions, to improve the sharing of which is slightly different, but we are still talking about information and clinical material such as human tissue. measures that could save people’s lives. Personally, I I am sure that all hon. Members will agree that we would favour an opt-out system for tissue taken from should be doing all we can to speed up research into live patients, as it would be less controversial; certainly, treatments for the diseases that I have mentioned, and taking tissue post-mortem is more complex. I would the many others that I have not. I look forward to the welcome the Minister’s views on whether we could Minister’s response. review the Human Tissue Act 2004, and whether the opt-in, opt-out question for live tissue samples might be 9.47 am considered. The Department of Health carried out a review last Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): year of the impact that human tissue legislation has had I attended this debate not intending to speak, but I on the research community. It found that: congratulate the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire “the majority of participants report that human tissue legislation (Jo Swinson) on securing it. and subsequent regulation by the HTA had a negative impact on I wish to talk about the terrible condition of Parkinson’s the research sector”. disease. Yesterday evening I was making my way home That, of course, was not the intention of the legislation. and called my wife, as I routinely do. She informed me The drive to ensure ethical practice is commendable— that a family member and good friend of ours, who indeed, it is vital. However, 68% of respondents believed is on holiday in Malta, had suffered an aneurysm, and that it has made human tissues harder to obtain, and is on a life-support machine until her family can get to 61% believe that it has led to the disposal of potentially her later today. I have known the lady for many years, valuable tissue. Clearly, the use of human tissue for and I know that she wants her organs to be donated to research must be subject to careful regulation to ensure medical science, but tragically, she is hundreds of miles a high standard of ethical practice, but that evidence away from her family. That quickly brought home to me suggests that the legislation may need to be reviewed. the fact that we need more research, and that more Once consent has been granted and tissue has been organs need to be donated to allow research to go removed, the question is how and where it should be ahead. stored in order to ensure that it is available for use by Parkinson’s disease, as we all know, is a terrible, researchers wherever it is needed. Most tissue is stored debilitating condition. Every hour, someone in this in hospitals, and it can be difficult for researchers to country is told that they have Parkinson’s, and, if anything, find out what tissue is stored in which hospitals in the situation is getting worse. Parkinson’s UK is an various parts of the country, so that they can gain admirable organisation doing its utmost to battle against access to types of tissue that they need. There are more the condition. Since 1969, it has spent over £45 million than 100 tissue banks in the UK, some publicly funded on groundbreaking research. At the start of the year, it and some private, but scientists’ access to the tissue is was supporting 90 research projects worth over £15 million. seriously affected by its location—and their personal Parkinson’s UK believes that it should be made easier contacts—and some institutions are more willing than for researchers to gain access to donated organs. others to share their tissue stores. To be usable for research purposes, the brain must be Breast Cancer Campaign is in the process of setting harvested within 24 hours; however, all too often there up the first national tissue bank for breast cancer researchers are obstacles to that. For example, hospital staff are in the UK. It will have a policy of equal access for often reluctant to harvest organs without a death researchers throughout the country. It is being funded certificate—rightly so, on occasion. When someone dies through voluntary donations. As well as national tissue over the weekend, there is often no one available to sign banks, there is another option for improving access to a death certificate, meaning that the organs, including tissue samples; creating a database or online system the brain, cannot be harvested before they deteriorate would allow researchers to see what tissue there is and and become totally unusable. When that happens, where, and to make requests for it. The national cancer Parkinson’s researchers miss out on resources vital to 75WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 76WH

[Mr Russell Brown] have covered Parkinson’s disease, and I would like the Minister to address the issues surrounding that, the developing better treatments and a cure. It also means tissue database and how we overcome problems. I suspect that the wishes of the deceased, including those carrying that they occur too often, when the harvesting of organs donor cards, and their families simply cannot be followed. needs to be dealt with very quickly—within 24 hours. Parkinson’s UK is therefore calling for guidance for How can we handle that better to ensure that we meet hospitals on the importance of harvesting organs, including the wishes of those who want to give organs at the end the brain, quickly—within 24 hours—to avoid those of their life to save the lives of others and for research? obstacles. It also calls for greater public awareness of Making that decision was a significant step for those the importance of donated organs in medical research—an individuals and we should do whatever is humanly issue that the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire possible to make it easier to respect their wishes. raised. The brain is the principal organ affected by Parkinson’s, 9.57 am and it is due to the death of specialised nerve cells in specific areas. However, the condition can also affect Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate other parts of the body. There is emerging evidence, my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire which the hon. Lady touched on, that early pathological (Jo Swinson) on securing the debate. She briefly mentioned changes found in the brain may start in the gut. The animal testing and I would like to pick up on that theme condition may actually start there and then spread to to start my comments. It is clear that further medical the brain. Much more research needs to be carried out research is needed, and I have a background in that in that area to investigate what is happening. area. We heard movingly from the hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) about Parkinson’s, Parkinson’s UK funds a brain bank that makes it and there are other areas where much greater research is possible to look at changes that have happened in the needed, for which one needs some form of human-based brain once a person has passed away. However, it is also model. That has led to the widespread use of animals necessary to look at other organs, from people with and for experimentation, which leads to concerns—ethical without Parkinson’s, particularly when they are alive, if and practical. at all possible. That would make it possible to correlate a person’s symptoms with any specific changes within The ethical concerns centre around how we should the body; that is as important as looking at cells. A key treat animals. While that is important and I very much challenge is the shortage of human tissue, including share the deep concern, it has on occasion led to some intestinal tissue from the gut, that is available for research. extreme positions, which I do not think anyone in the When it does become available, all too often there are House would support. There are sensible approaches to difficulties associated with obtaining it. Parkinson’s UK balancing the need for medical research, which leads to would welcome a tissue database, as it would enable experimentation, with trying to avoid such experiments. researchers to locate tissue more easily, thereby obtaining I would like to highlight the Fund for the Replacement maximum benefit from it. of Animals in Medical Experiments, which does a very good job in this area. It describes its position as anti-animal Mark Tami: Does my hon. Friend agree that we need experimentation: the media to address research properly and to explain “FRAME believes that the current scale of animal experimentation why it is being done? Too often, particularly in the is unacceptable, but recognises that the immediate abolition of all tabloid press, we see headlines like “Frankenstein science”, laboratory animal use is not possible. Essential medical research must continue, so that effective treatments for diseases that lessen and stories on experimentation for the sake of it, which the length and quality of human and animal life can be found. has never been the case. Such language further undermines New products, including medicines and vaccines, and industrial the likelihood of people giving consent; they would be and agricultural chemicals, must be adequately tested, in order to more likely to do so if they were fully up to speed with identify potential hazards to human and animal health, and to why research was being carried out. the environment.” That nicely sums up the balance, and explains why we Mr Brown: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that need to continue with this research. FRAME then goes point because I was going to come on to that issue. He on to say that it advocates the three R’s approach— made it abundantly clear that, regrettably, on too many replacement, reduction and refinement. As an aside, I occasions much of what we encounter day to day, notice that it is very traditional to use the three R’s especially in this arena, is driven by media hype and whether we are talking about reduce, reuse and recycle scare stories. His point is spot on. As the hon. Member or reading, writing and arithmetic. for East Dunbartonshire said, the situation regarding There is a great deal of misunderstanding about presumed consent and everything surrounding it is delicate. animal testing. There is an idea that medical research New Members and those of us who were here previously organisations and pharmaceutical companies want to will encounter over the coming months and years a do animal testing, when in fact most of them would significant amount of correspondence from people who much rather not if alternatives were available. That are deeply concerned about organ donation and the might be for financial reasons if nothing else. A lot of provision of tissue. My hon. Friend the Member for work has been done to find different ways to test and Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) is right: when we tackle develop new techniques. I am talking about work on issues such as this one, we have to have open, honest humans, animal models and tissue. Recently, we have and sensible adult debate, not driven by hype that, seen the idea of human on a chip, in which samples of frankly, terrifies people. different human tissues are put on a very small chip so I do not wish to say much more in my short contribution. that system interactions can be studied. There has also Suffice it to say that the debate is very important been work with stem cells and their derived tissues. indeed, and even that is probably an understatement. I There has been work in vitro and, increasingly, in 77WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 78WH silico—trying to use computational methods to work West and Abingdon. Why is there a difference between out what is likely to happen without having to perform the two? One reason relates to public acceptability and real-life experiments—in which I was involved before I the other to timeliness. While we benefit from having a was elected to this place. larger and more thorough bank of information, individual There are disadvantages to all those ideas. Testing on instances of information missing are not critical; it is a humans is risky; one has to be very careful about any general problem, but not a critical one. With organ intervention. We know that there have been some sad donation, organs are individual lives, and there is a instances of severe illness and death when humans have specific issue of timeliness. As my hon. Friend the tried out new therapies and medicines. We know that Member for East Dunbartonshire mentioned, in the there are problems with animals; they often do not future we will be able to have an opt-out system for provide exactly the right systems. Drugs behave differently tissue. It will be nice to see a real acceptance of the in some animals to the way that they do in humans. A benefits of research for everybody in this area. lot of work has to be done on systems such as human There are also issues about the ease and clarity of on a chip, and most of the computational techniques consent. The advantages of a national system and how still have a long way to go before they can truly be said easily it can be established have been discussed. There to represent what is going on. are also questions about how much information should I do not want to breach the Haldane principles and be stored with tissue, and that needs further thought. suggest what research should be funded, but the topics Should the data be anonymised? Should it be tied in to that I have mentioned would be very interesting for the medical histories and to details of other phenotypes appropriate bodies to look at rather carefully—whether that were observed—other interactions that happened? that is a funding organisation such as FRAME or the Should it be tied in with a DNA profile from that tissue? National Centre for the Replacement, Refinement and Reduction of Animals in Research. Support for such On that cue—I find it very hard not to talk about areas would be very gratefully received and would make DNA as that is what I used to work on—let me say that a huge difference to many people. there is an interesting asymmetry in the Human Tissue Today we are talking about tissue, and tissue has a Act 2008 between DNA and tissue in terms of whose huge amount of potential. It occupies a very nice space consent is required. The Human Tissue Act, which in the hierarchy, between in vitro and in silico models regulates tissue, stipulates that there is a hierarchy of and full humans with all the attendant risks. A number consent before a tissue can be obtained from somebody of tissue banks have been set up, including the UK who has died. Although we are mostly talking about Biobank. A large number of brain banks have produced tissue samples from those who are still living, post-mortem some very nice work, typically post mortem, leading to tissue is incredibly valuable as well. A spouse can refuse results on Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s. I shall mention, permission to use a tissue sample even though the in particular, the Cambridge brain bank partly because benefit may accrue to those relatives who are biologically it is in my constituency and partly because my mother related. With DNA, there is no hierarchy of consent, was involved with it—as a researcher rather than as a and any relative can consent. Typically, the people who donor. We should try to broaden the spread of these are asked are those with a genetic relationship. That banks and create a proper network. Some of the brain gives rise to some interesting asymmetries, because it banks have had problems with interacting with other means that different people could be consenting for banks and with transferring data. Things are also going different aspects, whereas the DNA would typically be on in this area with cancer banks. My hon. Friend the derived from the tissue. That will lead to problems in Member for East Dunbartonshire mentioned onCore, the future and we need to consider it. In general, DNA which is a national cancer biobanking organisation, and the future of DNA technology and testing will be a and we need to have other such organisations. topic that requires further thought from this House. It may be an appropriate topic at some stage for a debate There are issues not just with how we collect the such as this. samples and store the information, but over funding. Currently, there is not a viable commercial model for There have been a lot of drives for improvement as tissue banks or networks. From what I have heard, the the cost of sequencing has plummeted—from costs in banks have great difficulty in securing long-term funding. the order of billions for the first sequence down towards Banks cannot survive on project-based funding, because the £10,000 mark and heading very rapidly towards the the value derives at the end of the process and not at the £1,000 mark in the near future. That means that we are beginning, so there is a need for core funding to support starting to see more and more projects in which everybody, such a network. They have to have a certain level of or every baby at birth, is being sequenced. We will see security. some real effects on health—I hope that the Minister Let me turn to the topic of consent. We have heard will be able to comment on some of those—both in some discussions about whether we should have an research angles, through genome-wide association studies, opt-in or opt-out system. It would, I believe, be a great and in areas such as personalised genomic medicine. I step forward if we decided on the opt-in model. If am sure that the Minister is aware of the House of people were asked to opt in, we would see an increase in Lords’ Select Committee report on the subject. Schemes numbers. I would be concerned if we went to an opt-out are ready to be cascaded down through the NHS. For system for tissue. There is not public acceptance of that, example, free foetal DNA testing allows Down’s syndrome and I would prefer to get lots of people opting in. screening at a very early age—at about six weeks into a The topic of organ donation was also raised. It is my pregnancy. A pinprick of blood is taken and the RNA is strong belief that it should be on an opt-out basis, and I then sequenced. It is amazing that we can do that, and would have supported the Human Tissue Bill proposed such a scheme is ready to go through the NHS in a by Dr. Evan Harris, the former Member for Oxford matter of a few years. 79WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 80WH

[Dr Julian Huppert] fact the reality is that that is how human progress, particularly progress in science, has been made for In conclusion, let me support my hon. Friend and generations, even centuries. urge the Government to take action to support this I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for work because it is in the interests of science and research, Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) on his contribution of reducing animal experimentation and of patients. to the debate. I send my condolences to the family of his friend who suffered such a terrible tragedy while on 10.8 am holiday and I wish them courage as they fly out to Malta. Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab): It is a pleasure to My hon. Friend raised the very important issue of make my first outing as the shadow spokesman for the practical barriers that exist in this area, even when public health under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. I hospitals systematically want to collect people’s brains congratulate the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire after death. There are also the issues of the death (Jo Swinson) on securing such an important debate. certificate and the conflict that exists between the medical Having listened to her this morning, I feel that I know a side and the research side. The hon. Member for East lot more about the subject. She is well known in the Dunbartonshire has really hit on an important issue House for her campaigning work on this issue. Her here, which requires some constructive and creative early-day motion 212, which she tabled in the previous thought. Parliament, attracted the support of 64 hon. Members, and I am sure that a version of the same early-day motion will make its appearance through the course of Mark Tami: I thank my hon. Friend for her very kind this Parliament. comments. There is just one point that I want her to address; I am perhaps returning to the point that I It was interesting to hear about the hon. Lady’s made earlier about how we and the media view this strong constituency link with the subject. I was certainly issue. She knows that my particular interest in this area unaware that her constituency was a hub for research is with the Alder Hey hospital and with children— into life sciences. I also want to congratulate her on her unfortunately, that interest derives from a personal tenacity. Using the Freedom of Information Act to get experience. But the fact is that a lot of medical conditions, the data on the hospitals is the work of someone who such as sarcomas, particularly affect children; indeed, in pays great attention to detail. In fact, she found that some cases, medical conditions only affect children. there are huge differences between hospitals. It might be interesting to drill down into the information that she Given that children are particularly affected by some has to see whether there are geographical differences, or conditions, it follows that the research into those conditions differences between foundation trusts, in respect of how must focus on children, but we find such research samples are collected. The challenge for Ministers is to difficult to accept. It is very difficult to accept research try to get everybody up to the level of the best, and it is on adults, but research on children, which sometimes clear that there is a very long way to go to achieve that. very unfortunately happens as a result of a child’s death, is even more difficult to accept. However, it is I congratulate the Minister, who has responsibility something that we really need to address. As I said, for public health, on her appointment. She has been in a some medical conditions only affect children. shadow public health role since July 2007. She had a distinguished career in the NHS for 25 years, including working as a district nurse. She also worked in hospitals, Mary Creagh: My hon. Friend makes a very important in research and, of course, in palliative care, so I am point. Actually, this is one of those issues where the very interested to hear her comments in this debate. answer of the child involved might be very different Furthermore, she is possibly one of the very few from that of a parent. I think that children can be Conservative MPs who has served as a trade union incredibly wise. steward, for the Royal College of Nursing, so I will also Speaking as a mother, the thought of one of my be interested to hear whether she has any response to children dying is beyond comprehension, or beyond the yesterday’s Budget. We welcome her, and her experience, limits of my imagination. It would be wrong for someone to her new post. Her direct experience of front-line to ask for a donation from a bereaved parent who was working in the public sector will no doubt stand her in dealing with that level of stress and grief. The time for very good stead. asking for donation is not at the point of surgery or of I also want to congratulate the hon. Members who death; it is when people are feeling generous and altruistic, have contributed to today’s debate. I know that my hon. when they feel that donation is something that can help Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) other people. has a very strong interest in the subjects of cord blood Actually, children themselves are incredibly generous and stem cell research; we have debated those issues and incredibly thoughtful. Obviously, it is different for together on many occasions. He raised a very important babies and toddlers, but children from about the age of point about the general altruism that the public feel. six or seven can start to work these things out for Most people want to make their own contribution themselves. Perhaps there is a role for education in the and help to contribute to medical science. Unfortunately, classroom to get children to talk more seriously about however, the level of knowledge and debate on these these issues. types of issues is very low. Part of that is due to the I know that the work that the Anthony Nolan Trust “ick” factor—none of us likes to think of our precious has done in increasing the number of people on the bodies as, first, dying; secondly, being cut in any way, bone marrow register is incredible. In Huddersfield and even after death; and, thirdly, being kept in a large Wakefield—my constituency covered part of Huddersfield fridge with medical scientists examining them. But in until the last boundary change—we had a very brave 81WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 82WH campaigning journalist at the Huddersfield Examiner Obviously, with bone marrow and stem cell donation, who, when he was dying in his mid-20s, launched a huge we are not talking about people who have died. It is one campaign, including writing a blog about his experience. of the few areas where someone can save a life by giving Through that campaign, he engaged with a lot of young something. It is not painful, it does not take that long people to get them on to the bone marrow register. and someone can actually save somebody else’s life. The issue of donating tissue, or blood marrow, is a bit There are tens of thousands of people out there who do like that of blood donation. I have spoken to my staff not even know that they are potential life-savers. This about it and said, “The blood lorry is outside, off you issue is not only about how we raise awareness, but how go”. There are responses such as, “Well, I don’t fancy we— rolling up my sleeve and having someone stick a needle in me”. However, if I ask, “If you have an accident on Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. The intervention your way home, or your child is ill, would you want is too lengthy. blood for your child or yourself?”, the answer of course Mary Creagh: Thank you, Mr Benton. I was listening is, “Yes”. The time to do it is during a tea break or a with interest and totally agreeing with my hon. Friend. lunch break from work and not when people are under Most of us will not have the chance to save someone’s stress and dealing with a huge range of emotions. life in the normal way. The chance to be an everyday I also congratulate the hon. Member for Cambridge hero does not come to many of us, and most of us do (Dr Huppert) on his contribution to the debate. It is not have the medical skills that would enable us to be clear that science has lost a great researcher, but science’s one. However, a person can undergo a small surgical loss is certainly the House’s gain. While he was speaking, procedure to take bone marrow out of their hip, and I had a quick look on my BlackBerry and perhaps after someone else will be walking around as a result of their the debate he can explain to me what “nucleic proteins” generosity to another human being. I find that profoundly are, or whatever it was that he was researching—I am moving. not even sure that I have used the right word there—because We need to look at where the responsibility lies for I got lost after about the first sentence of his contribution. raising awareness. We as politicians are in this room Computational biology is clearly an emerging area of debating the matter, so we are fulfilling our responsibility. work in this field and the hon. Gentleman spoke very We have heard of the difficulties that the media create eloquently about its potential to reduce the need for in their coverage of these issues, some of which have experiments on animals and, in some cases, to replace been difficult. The Alder Hey and Bristol Royal Children’s high-risk human trials, which would be welcomed by all hospital cases were seen as national scandals, and rightly parts of the House. He also leaves us with the interesting so, but the scientific community has a huge responsibility image of a “human on a chip”, which is something that in this area. This country has a problem with science. I will go away and reflect upon. We have a framework that enables us to be world Using his own experience as a researcher, the hon. leaders in life sciences and all kinds of areas, and we Gentleman raised the important ethical issue of the have a population that is willing to run marathons, to anonymisation of samples, and he is absolutely right to do fun runs for breast cancer and cancer research and do so. Certainly, in any research that I have ever participated to work and raise money. Yet there is a gap. in, I have always been told that the donated material Presumably, every one of the women who participated will be held completely anonymously and untraceably. in the five-mile fun run in Wakefield—the race for Now, however, we are moving forward with this biobank. life—did so because they knew someone who had died I was invited to take part in that project. I went along of or suffered from breast cancer. All those women because I was interested and I asked, “Are more women could have been offered the chance to be screened for than men coming along?” I was told that, yes, there blood marrow donation or to talk about tissue sampling. were, so there were all the usual biases that exist. We The world of fundraising needs to work more closely come back to the altruism factor and it seems that with the world of research. I do not know how that women tend to be more altruistic than men. I will leave would happen, but I think that the scientific community, that point hanging; if anyone wants to intervene on me, whether it is researching genetically modified foods, I am happy to argue the point. [Laughter.] cancer or Parkinson’s, has its own responsibility. However, Mark Tami: My hon. Friend is exactly right. Men are it has not found its voice in this area. certainly less willing to become stem cell donors and We have an image of scientists working in their labs bone marrow donors, because we are cowardly and do in white coats. It has been a long time since I have been not like needles. That is a particular problem. in a research lab, so I do not know whether they still What we must do with bone marrow and stem cell wear those coats, but they do not get on the telly. We research, as the work of the Anthony Nolan Trust tend to hear about sensational breakthroughs, but when shows, is to put fewer obstacles in the way of donors. we read the small print, we find that they are at least When it comes to giving blood, I know from my own five, six or 10 years away. There is media sensationalism point of view that my reaction is really, “Argh”—giving about what might be small steps at the beginning, yet no blood really terrifies people. However, mouth swabs can real conversation about the long, arduous and painful be used to donate other material. If we can get people work that scientists have to go through to achieve a past that first stage and if they are then approached breakthrough. I agree with the hon. Member for East because they are a potential match, I think that people Dunbartonshire that there is not enough access to will say, “I am a potential match and therefore I will go tissue samples, but there are difficulties at the interface to that next stage and give blood”. If we somehow between the two worlds. phase people by saying, “You’ve got to give blood and My hon. Friend the Member for Alyn and Deeside you must have various tests for things”, then people are mentioned cord blood collection. The Royal College of less likely to come forward. Midwives has specifically said to its members, “We do 83WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 84WH

[Mary Creagh] Scientists have been doing that for generations. I do not think that there is any question about that, and we can not want you to be distracted by cord blood collection understand why they want to progress medical research. while you are trying to deliver a baby.” Obviously, However, years—in some cases, decades—later, families anyone who is assisting at a birth wants a happy baby discovered that the children who they thought they had and a happy mum. The cord blood thing comes much buried had not been complete. farther down the line. Certainly, that was my experience The series of moral, ethical and religious issues that of giving birth, and I believe that it is probably the came out of that practice had to be, and were, addressed experience of most medical professionals. by the Labour Government. The inquiries together with The scientist is not in the room saying, “By the way, the Isaacs report, which focused on the retention of make sure you get the cord blood, and make sure you adult brains following coroners’ post-mortems, revealed put it in the fridge quickly.” If a midwife is dealing with that storage and use of organs and tissue without a baby that might be in respiratory distress or a mother proper consent was commonplace. We as legislators who is in the middle of a haemorrhage, all other had a duty to change that. considerations rightly go out of the window. The midwife The chief medical officer concluded that the law wants a safe delivery, and the researcher stands in the needed to be changed. We had a wide-ranging public university lab and weeps as the precious cord blood consultation, “Human bodies, human choices”, which heads off with the placenta to the incinerator. I do not set out proposals and led to the Act that created the know whether people still take the placenta home. I Human Tissue Authority, which licenses and inspects certainly was not interested in that; we are back to the institutions. The Act is based on the principle that “ick” factor. consent should be given by the living. If that key There is a challenging conflict between the NHS principle is to be changed, it must be changed with a professional who wants to deal sensitively with, for great deal of consent. I do not detect a groundswell of example, a cancer or Parkinson’s patient, and the colleague public opinion or hon. Members in this House wishing back at the lab who wants to know whether they have to reopen the consent issue, despite the efforts of consent to do lab work on the tissue samples. We have Dr Harris, the former Member for Oxford West and heard some interesting suggestions today about how the Abingdon. medical process can support the collection of tissue. Most hospitals have introduced MRSA screening prior Jo Swinson: In the context of the legislation, I agree to surgical interventions, and that would be a good way with the points that the hon. Lady makes about consent of doing it. being vital. However, would she accept that the current The national patient care record—a national database problem is that many people would be happy to consent, with everyone’s details—is another possibility. The patient but their wishes are not being fulfilled because they are could sit with their general practitioner and go through not even being asked? organ and tissue donation. The information could be there in black and white on the computer screen for Mary Creagh: Absolutely. The hon. Lady makes a every medical professional who deals with them at any valid point, and systems, policies and processes are the stage of their life. The decision could also be revoked at only way. It is not laws or our passing Acts in Parliament any stage. that will make it happen. This is about the 60% of trusts that do not collect any form of tissue, but get rid of Dr Huppert: As the hon. Lady knows, there has been everything. It is about people being made aware—there a great deal of concern about uploading data. I hope is an educational side to this—and it is about having a she agrees that if what she is discussing is to happen at system in place. If we want people to donate their all, a huge amount of data safety and security, and a organs, we have to make it as easy as possible, so that simple mechanism whereby people can opt out, will be they can do it when they open a bank account or go to needed. Ideally, they would opt into such a system, Boots pharmacy to pick up a prescription. Whatever it rather than being given a limited opportunity to opt is, it has to be made easy. out. Most people hope throughout their lives that they will not need a huge amount of surgical intervention. Mary Creagh: I agree with the hon. Gentleman. I That is what we all hope for, is it not? I believe that the know that Liberal Democrats have an antipathy to the hon. Lady is right that most of those who are unfortunate national patient care record and have called for it to be enough to have repeated operations would like to help scrapped, but it might represent an excellent opportunity other people through medical research. to deal with this matter. Of course, people would have It is important to say that lifetime consent for a tissue to opt in, and nothing I have heard today changes that. sample is already possible under current legislation, and The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire asked people may give “generic and enduring” consent for whether people would opt in or opt out. We need to go their own sample, but the hon. Lady may be trying to back and look at consent, which is at the heart of this bring to the foreground lifetime consent for any medical debate. As we have heard, the Human Tissue Act 2004 research purposes. However, the law in such areas cannot created the framework for the removal, storage and use and should not stand still, and we must renew the of tissues and organs of the deceased. working of the existing law. We must remember the circumstances that gave birth I was interested to hear the hon. Lady’s reference to to the Act. It came about because of public inquiries the Human Tissue Authority’s evaluation of perceptions into the events at Bristol Royal and Alder Hey hospitals, of how the legislation and regulations that flow from it where organs and tissues from children who had died have affected researchers. The Human Tissue Authority had been removed, stored and used without consent. has said that it wants to ensure that researchers have 85WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 86WH access to high-quality samples by consolidating stocks from my experience at Cranfield School of Management throughout the sector; that brings us back to the idea of that we loved sharing our research at conferences, but banks. It also wants to reduce the regulatory burden on we lived in dread of someone coming up with the same the research sector by using open-ended rather than idea and publishing it a bit sooner. It is incumbent on fixed-term licences, and moving to a risk-based approach researchers to work out ways and methods of sharing to regulation rather than regulating everyone. their research in this area. The hon. Lady will be interested to hear that the Nuffield Council on Bioethics is consulting on options Dr Huppert: The hon. Lady is making an important for boosting the supply of organs and human tissue. It point. A lot of work is taking place on open-access data is clear that a problem is emerging as fertility sciences and open-access publishing with the safeguards that she improve. There is a shortage of organs for transplant, as correctly requires, so that people who have invested a many hon. Members have said, and of sperm and eggs lot of time and effort—for example, in building up a for donation. I prefer to refer to “sperm” rather than bank—get first priority. I hope that she is aware that “gametes”, not least because I do not know how to many of the research councils are increasingly mandating pronounce that latter word. Let us call a sperm a sperm. that data should be made openly available. Transplant patients and women seeking fertility treatment The hon. Lady is correct about interaction with the may travel abroad, often to places where different rules media. She may agree that one problem is the shortage apply or, in the case of organ donation, where there of good science journalists, with a few honourable may be an illegal market. We must watch that carefully exceptions. because moral and ethical considerations may be involved if inducements are offered, whether cash or paying Mary Creagh: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that funeral expenses for people who give their organs. Those intervention. I was not aware that the research councils are some of the issues being debated, and the consultation were making open access mandatory, but logically it is closes on 13 July. I put that on the record so that any right that that should be done. Researchers enjoy taxpayers’ hon. Members who want to participate in the consultation money, so it is right that it should be shared for the maydoso. common good. Most historic scientific breakthroughs have been made through people sharing building blocks New stem cells made by reprogramming adult tissue with each other, rather than through working in splendid into induced pluripotent stem cells—iPS cells—which isolation. come not from human embryos but from adult skin cells, have been possible only since 2007, so science is The hon. Gentleman is right about science journalists. already well ahead of legislation in this area. The iPS There is a paucity because they may make two, three or technique could lead to new breakthroughs for Parkinson’s four times as much money working for a big pharmaceutical disease, motor neurone disease, diabetes and paralysis, company. Writing for people who may not be interested and that would obviously be very welcome. or who may even be openly hostile to science may be less alluring than working for a big pharmaceutical Mark Tami: My hon. Friend referred to breakthroughs, company and being at the heart of breakthroughs. and stem cells are one of the major areas where The Human Tissue Authority website is incredibly breakthroughs are happening. However, we must remember useful in listing establishments that have human application, that much research comes to a dead end. Sometimes research application, post-mortem application, anatomy when we believe that it is going a long way, it does not. licences and display licences. I had not realised that the The Daily Mail and the Daily Express may say that display of human bodies was regulated, but that was drinking coffee prevents cancer, and also that it causes controversial a few years ago. cancer. There is no “one size fits all” or one magical I hope that today’s debate will lead to solid proposals cure, so we must go down many routes, knowing that from the Minister. I look forward to hearing what she some will be a dead end. has to say. We must tread carefully if we are to maintain public confidence in these vital areas and public trust in Mary Creagh: I agree that there is no silver bullet, the medical research community. much as we would like one, and my hon. Friend is right about the red tops’ approach to eating—or not eating— 10.38 pm yoghurt, strawberries, blackcurrants or whatever fruit or drink is fashionable. It would be impossible to live The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health our lives by their diet rules, certainly in the House of (Anne Milton): I welcome the debate, and congratulate Commons Tea Room. We need to understand better, my honourable colleague the Member for East and the hon. Member for Cambridge has a responsibility Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) on securing this debate. to his former colleagues in Cambridge to be a champion Although we are not great in number, clearly the matter and an advocate in this place—he has already proved in is important to some people, and this has been a brilliant this debate that he will be—in respect of the benefits opportunity to have a good run-around with some of involved and the management of people’s expectations. the issues. My honourable colleague has worked extremely I understand where the research is coming from. The hard to promote the supply of quality tissue for research, hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire said that researchers and to encourage closer co-operation between everyone are a bit cagey about sharing with other researchers in the sector. If nothing else, the debate has highlighted where tissue is held. Someone doing a PhD who has put the need for much greater co-operation. three or five years of their life into it does not want Human tissue-based research is vital for advances in someone else from a different country or different research medical science. That is an obvious statement, but it institution publishing six months before them; let’s face needs to be reiterated. We want better and more effective it, academics are as competitive as the rest of us. I know treatments, and if that essential research is to flourish, 87WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 88WH

[Anne Milton] Mark Tami: Further to the comments of the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), the problem is everyone involved in procuring, storing and using tissue that the tabloid press provides a twisted, simplistic view must work together. None of that work can take place of science, but the scientific press is too detailed and without the generosity of people who are willing to writes and speaks in a language that ordinary people do allow their tissue to be used for the benefit of others. We not understand. We need somehow to get a balance that can proceed only if we have their trust and confidence crosses those two divides. in what I believe is a difficult climate. The public’s trust of anyone outside their immediate family is low, so this Anne Milton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his is a good time to raise the matter. intervention; he is absolutely right. I agree with the hon. My honourable colleague outlined some of the significant Member for Wakefield—I call a sperm a sperm. The benefits of using human tissue. It allows for testing to hon. Member for Cambridge strayed into areas that are reduce harm, reduces the need to use animals, and way beyond me, but such matters are important. I allows for placement refinement and reduction, which welcome him to the House. At the last election, we lost the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) also a number of scientists and it is extremely important to discussed at some length. I should point out that I am in have voices such as his in the House to inform journalists, the fortunate position of having a group of people to particularly if there is not sufficiently extensive scientific advise me, so I know all sorts of little facts that I did not journalism out there, although I am not in any position know when I was an Opposition spokesperson. I should to judge on that matter. Such issues are important, and possibly have started my speech by congratulating the perhaps we should all take the opportunity to send a hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) and thanking copy of this debate to our local press. That will perhaps her for her kind comments. highlight the issue of organ donation locally; we all My colleague the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire have our responsibilities. said that the Human Tissue Act 2004 applied to Scotland, The issue of consent was raised. Legislation in that but I understand that there is separate Scottish legislation— area was reviewed following revelations about the the Human Tissue (Scotland) Act 2006. I am sure that widespread retention of organs and tissue without the she is aware of that Act, but I thought I would mention consent or knowledge of families, as the hon. Member it for the sake of clarity. for Wakefield mentioned. The Human Tissue Act 2004 The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway makes it clear that consent is required for the storage or (Mr Brown) mentioned people who suffer from Parkinson’s. use of organs and tissue for research, whether they are My mother-in-law suffered from Parkinson’s and, during taken from people during their life or after death. my career, I have nursed many people who suffer from As was mentioned, we know from talking to patients the illness, which is very cruel. Parkinson’s is very difficult and their families that the vast majority of people are not only for the individual to live with, but for those extremely supportive of tissue research and, when asked, around them. Donated organs can clearly make a difference will happily consent to their tissue being used. However, to research in that field, and I know that many people my colleague the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire who suffer from Parkinson’s and their families look is rightly concerned that we should not waste opportunities forward to a day when there is real relief from the to tap into that incredible good will. She suggested the symptoms and in time, I hope, a cure. use of generic consent for the retention of tissue, which Of course, Parkinson’s is not the only illness, and could be sought at the same time as consent for other there is possibly more publicity than ever for some of medical procedures—for example, surgery or a diagnostic the severe, enduring and sometimes life-limiting illnesses biopsy. I entirely agree that people should be given the that people have to go through. It is a shame that the opportunity to donate tissue, but consent is not a opportunity is not always taken to highlight the difference straightforward issue. that we can make as individuals who are not necessarily I am not sure that a top-down approach is the best connected with people suffering from such illnesses. way to proceed with dealing with the matter. The good One of the ways that we can make a difference is by practice we seek cannot be imposed from the top, and donating tissue. history is littered with examples where a top-down The hon. Member for Dumfries and Galloway mentioned approach simply somehow relieves professionals of their the tissue database. We are possibly in a fortunate responsibility; they believe that they are no longer position in the new coalition Government. I do not feel responsible for the matter. Increasingly, we find that entirely responsible for what went on before I came into organisations are tailoring their consent procedures to post, so this is a brilliant time to raise with Ministers local needs; for example, there may be specialist clinics, some of the issues that hon. Members know create where specific risks can be addressed. We are aware of obstacles, particularly in relation to the subject that we successful and innovative approaches that have led to are discussing today. This is an opportunity to raise greater efficiency and a better experience for the patient issues, and I always welcome any feedback people can or person. Innovative thinking must be encouraged and give me. not constrained. I am often concerned about the latter The hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) happening with anything that takes a top-down approach. mentioned the need for media support. There is no doubt that the media have a huge role to play. The Jo Swinson: I am sympathetic to what the hon. Lady recent death from cervical cancer of a celebrity meant is saying about enabling local decision making, but does that the incidence of cervical screening shot through the she accept that there is a risk that if we have very roof. There is no doubt that the media have both a different consent procedures across the country, it will responsibility and, to some extent, a duty to raise some hamper researchers and industry further? It would mean of the issues, as we all do. that when it came to accessing tissue samples, some 89WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 90WH would be available under certain consent rules and has, where the hot spots and cold spots are. It could use others would be available under others. That complexity the transparency that we have under the Freedom of is itself a real barrier and a problem. Information Act almost to shame the hospitals that do not do it, or it could at least have a conversation with Anne Milton: As with many things, it is a matter of those that do not do it systematically, perhaps because balance. I heard my honourable colleague’s words about they are not attached to a university or because they are what the Department of Health must do. I do not know not teaching hospitals. We could examine how we could whether the Department of Health holds the solutions encourage hospitals to do it and educate the staff about in this case. I really believe that the matter needs to be the wider benefits to the community. dealt with locally. Anyone who has first-hand experience of routine procedures knows that they can be quite Anne Milton: The hon. Lady is right. I think that in unsettling for people. Most people about to undergo the end it is the differences that will spread good practice surgery are understandably nervous. The hon. Member and drive up standards and professionalism in this area. for Alyn and Deeside expressed his visible concern She is right to say that we must examine why some about donating even blood. I suggest that he comes to places are so good on this. One example that I heard see me afterwards—I will give him a talking to and get about recently is that of a trust that sends combined, rid of his nerves. personalised leaflets about consent to treatment to patients We are dependent on the professionalism and humanity along with pre-operative medication. My colleague the of health care professionals around the country, and we hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire mentioned that. can draw on their experience to find the right time to That trust is giving patients the time and chance to discuss tissue research. Dealing with the issue is a think about their treatments in advance. That is the type question of trust—trust in the relationship between of innovative practice that we want. I do not believe clinicians and patients, trust in local health organisations that a standardised form is the answer. to provide the right information to people, and trust in I would also have some misgivings about routinely health professionals to maintain the separation between seeking consent to use tissue for research unless we treatment and research. could be confident that there was a good chance of its being used. One of the key complaints from the families My colleague the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire affected by organ retention scandals was that everyone mentioned the fact that it might not be convenient for a tried to justify the practice of routinely retaining tissue surgeon to seek consent for tissue donation. I would in the name of research, when in fact most of the suggest that it is not necessarily a matter of whether it is material had never been used. There is a test that is convenient; it is about whether it is appropriate. That is applied to children, called the Gillick competence. We the difficulty. It is also true that clinicians can duck the do not often use the opportunities that we have to issue and find it difficult to talk about. That also needs raise the issue with children, or to ask them what they addressing. However, I do think that the solutions lie want to do. with the organisations and the clinicians, and should not come from the centre. Let me clarify that there are no plans to revisit the question of an opt-out system. Certainly, on a personal Mark Tami: The hon. Lady mentioned the issues of level, I would not be happy with such a system. It would trust and getting information across on issues such as require an extensive information and education campaign, bone marrow donation and stem cells. However, there is and there would be ethical and practical issues if people also the matter of getting information across to minority were able to opt out of some types of research but not communities, where levels of donation are very low. If, others. No doubt some people would be happy to give for example, a child is diagnosed with a particular tissue for some types of research but not others. Everyone condition, their odds of finding a donor are very slim feels so differently about the issue; it is a very difficult compared with those of a child from the white population. area. We need to get information across to people and educate My colleague the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire them about what is being done. also raised the prospect of a tissue database and mentioned the work undertaken by onCore. I understand that Anne Milton: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his onCore was originally set up to collect and store tissue intervention. It is interesting that this is the first time in a national bank for cancer research. It now focuses that we have referred to the differences between ethnic mainly on bio-banking activity, and that shift reflects groups, and that is an extremely important matter, but the research community’s local initiatives. there is a resource out there that we do not necessarily I also understand that there have been excellent use, which is the faith leaders in communities, who can developments through the National Cancer Research perhaps raise the issue. That is why we need to send Institute’s informatics initiative. For example, there is tentacles out, perhaps even from this debate, to ensure the oncology information exchange, a free-to-use computer that we get the messages across in many different settings. portal for sharing information on resources for cancer We mentioned children; perhaps the issue should be research, including tissue collections. talked about in school. At the heart of the debate is the issue of improving access to tissue for research. Some initiatives are under Mary Creagh: The Minister says that this is not a way, and there are some examples of good practice, but matter for the Department of Health, but is she not a common cause of concern is the complexity of the even a little curious about which hospitals do systematically regulatory and governance regimes. A lack of confidence collect and process the material, and about the 60% or and misconceptions about requirements have meant so that do not? I am very curious about that. Her that residual tissue from diagnostic procedures may be Department could easily map, with the resources that it archived for purposes such as clinical audit, but not 91WH Human Tissue (Availability)23 JUNE 2010 Human Tissue (Availability) 92WH

[Anne Milton] and there have been a number of reasonably successful campaigns in the past year, but I cannot re-emphasise available for research. Perhaps the appropriate consent enough how important it is to have public trust and has not been secured or the licence to store tissue for confidence in the systems in place. It is important that research has not been obtained from the Human Tissue we do not have burdensome legislation. It is important Authority. Either way, the effect has been to stifle to raise awareness among all types of clinicians in research, which is not what we want. Researchers complain training and to raise awareness among members of the of local resistance to new research programmes because public. Possibly it is a question of just changing the they are perceived as being too risky or beset with rules culture, so that people think, “I can change what’s and regulations. Efforts are being made to help NHS happening in the area in which I work.” Sometimes we organisations to overcome those perceptions. perceive barriers when they do not exist. The HTA, in collaboration with the National Research We have raised the issue of the differences between Ethics Service, has set out the licensing, ethical approval men and women, so I suggest that the men go hence and and consent requirements to enable diagnostic archives give blood. It is true that there are gender differences. It to operate as tissue banks. The HTA’s annual review is extremely difficult to get men to go to their doctor tells the story of Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation with symptoms, particularly concerning anything below Trust, which was one of the first establishments to the waist. It is an issue to get men to come forward and license its archive of diagnostic histopathology specimens donate tissue and blood. It is important and perhaps as a research resource. A histopathologist from the trust incumbent on all of us at certain times in the year to said that seek an opportunity to demonstrate by example that we “support from the HTA was very helpful for us in approaching are prepared to do that. our Trust management with proposals to license our diagnostic archive for research and upgrade consent processes”. I thank my colleague the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire not only for her contribution, but for That is precisely the type of collaborative and supportive allowing us all to have quite a collaborative discussion approach that we want and it is typified by a joint about the issue. There is no single solution. The NHS, enterprise between the HTA and the National Research the research community, clinicians and Government Ethics Service, which has helped to open up access even agencies have a part to play. In particular, the Government further. have a role in facilitating, but at the end of the day, they I look forward to the outcome of the consultation by cannot take action on the ground. I hope that I have the Nuffield Council on Bioethics. This is clearly a been able to reassure my honourable colleague and dynamic issue, and I personally would like to keep it as other hon. Members that some progress has been made, such. It is about raising awareness and about the role and that the various initiatives allow us to be more that we in this place can play in raising the issue in our optimistic about the future. I reiterate that my door is constituencies and with a wider audience. That is not open, and officials in the Department would be pleased just down to the scientists or those with a scientific to hear from anyone with examples of attempts to make background in this place, although their expertise is progress that have been frustrated by rules, regulations very valuable. The media can play a role. The organ or bureaucracy that prevent research in this important donation taskforce report raised the issue of awareness, area from going ahead. 93WH 23 JUNE 2010 New Roads (Hertfordshire) 94WH

New Roads (Hertfordshire) It can be difficult living on an unadopted road. Street lights might go out, but no one will repair them. Vehicles 11 am can be dumped, but the police can do nothing. People use the busy roads as a car park, but there are no Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con): It is good to serve parking attendants. Residents cannot get parking permits, under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Benton. zones or controlling. Importantly, dangerous pavements The debate is about the adoption of roads in Hertfordshire, also go unrepaired. Unadopted highways can lead to about which my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering issues with maintenance, street cleaning, lack of pedestrian (Mr Hollobone), who is in the Chamber, has also had facilities, lighting and drainage. As time goes by, such an important debate. Highways adoption is a pressing issues make it harder for those living in the road to sell concern countrywide, and its importance is signified by their properties. the fact that this is the second such debate in this Parliament alone. My hon. Friend also raised the issue Speeding is an even greater concern. For safety reasons, in the previous Parliament, and I pay tribute to him for St Albans wishes to adopt a “20’s Plenty” city centre his tenacity. We both cried “Snap!” when we got back to speed limit, but some city centre roads in new developments the House and saw that we were trying to secure a are not adopted, so the speed limit is not enforceable. debate on the same topic. The issue came up on the doorsteps. People are puzzled as to why recently constructed roads, which often look I thank the Minister for his considered replies to my superior to the potholed roads that we are famous for in hon. Friend’s debate on 10 June. I wish to pick up where Hertfordshire, are not formally adopted. my hon. Friend left off and to have second stab at the I called the debate because my council wants action. issue, which I hope to move forward even more. I noted Hertfordshire recognises that we in Parliament need to with interest the Minister’s comments about the current help it. Indeed, in 2009, Herts county council highways position and the measures that are in place, but I hope and transport cabinet panel formally recommended that he will be able to update us on his thoughts and actively involving MPs, with the aim of exploring the give us some hope of a speedy resolution. possibility of altering legislation to address the problem. Unadopted roads—particularly residential roads—are In many areas in my constituency where new housing a particular issue in Hertfordshire, where we have developments have been built, the local authority has experienced a large amount of development. Up-to-date subsequently failed to adopt the roads. I have consulted information about the scale of the problem is not Herts county council, which shares local people’s frustration available, but it is estimated that 40,000 roads in England about unadopted roads, but it is often frustrated by the and Wales are unadopted. I am not particularly concerned limited mechanisms available to it to tackle the issue. about farm tracks or roads that residents wish to keep There has been concern, and people have voiced the unadopted; I am talking about the tens of thousands of belief, that local authorities may not wish to adopt roads on new residential developments. Let me make it roads for reasons of their own, but Herts assures me clear that when I say “new” I do not mean brand-new, that that is not the case. but relatively new. One issue that has been raised with me over the years Worryingly, residents are frequently unaware of the is that people buying a property are assured that the status of their road until they try to consult their road is being considered for adoption. I know that this council about a problem. As we know, some roads have is a case of caveat emptor, but if someone is told that a been unadopted for 10 years or more. The people who road is seriously being considered for adoption—a woolly live on them often struggle to access public services and phrase if ever I heard one—they would expect it to be to meet the maintenance costs for which they are personally adopted within a reasonable time. One constituent, who liable. More importantly, these roads materially contacted me last year, bought their home in 2006. The inconvenience residents, creating an unfair situation in road was built approximately 10 years ago and was which householders pay significant amounts of council unadopted at the time of purchase, but inquiries seemed tax for services that they do not receive. to suggest that it would be adopted shortly. However, Hertfordshire contains significant areas of green four years later it has still not been adopted, and my belt. In areas such as my constituency, the focus has constituent is understandably frustrated. Many purchasers understandably been on the usage of brownfield sites who have been given similar assurances that their road for new development. One such site is the old City is indeed progressing towards adoption feel duped. This hospital site, where there is a problem with unadopted seems to be a frequent issue when prospective purchasers roads. That was highlighted to me when I talked to do the searches; they are given the impression that the residents over the campaign period. They are frustrated road is in the process of being adopted, but nothing is that people visiting the current City hospital park on really being done to progress that. their roads to avoid the hospital’s car-parking charges. A report to Herts county council in November 2009 They are powerless to combat the problem because the looked for a new approach to highway adoption. The local authority cannot do anything about rogue parkers. report was formulated in response to the concerns of Children who live in these roads are also put at risk by many of my constituents, as well as district councils and the increased volume of traffic outside their homes. developers, about the time that it was taking to adopt Furthermore, hospital visitors avoid paying parking roads in new developments. At present, Herts county fees, and local authorities, which raise significant amounts council, which has responsibility for all non-trunk roads from legitimate parking schemes and city centre car in the county, is responsible for the adoption and subsequent parks, will be keen to see roads formally adopted and maintenance of roads. The guiding principle in the brought under proper control. Most of St Albans has a adoption of new roads is that they should have wider residents’ parking zone, so something surely needs to be utility than simply providing access to a small number done to protect residents who are affected by the blight of properties. As a result, short cul-de-sacs are routinely that I have described. not adopted, and commercial and industrial roads are 95WH New Roads (Hertfordshire)23 JUNE 2010 New Roads (Hertfordshire) 96WH

[Mrs Anne Main] In the previous Parliament, the use and inadequacies of 106 funding were seriously examined, and section 38 also not adopted. Herts county council tells me that all might be a suitable topic for the Department for parties need more clarity over the extent of adoption Communities and Local Government to look at with and that the extent of highway adoption should form the Department for Transport in a cross-cutting report. part of any planning approval for developments involving There are no incentives for developers to enter into the construction of new highways. It also believes that it section 38 agreements, and developers currently initiate would be helpful if road signs on unadopted roads the process dictating whether they enter into a section made it clear that they were not adopted, so that there 38 adoption. However, in the current economic climate was no confusion. there is a risk that even fewer section 38 agreements may As I said, we have no idea of the number of unadopted be entered into, because developers do not have resources roads, because the most recent survey was in 1972. It is to fund the bond of such an agreement. vital, if we are to tackle the problem, that we gather There are several reasons why a road often does not more information about its extent. In his recent response progress to adoption; I shall not list them in this short to my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering, who is in debate. My council tells me that it has concerns about the Chamber because he feels so passionately about this the inability of local authorities to oblige developers to matter, the Minister stated that enter into a section 38 agreement so that highways can “knowing the number of unadopted roads would not really be adopted. I understand from the Minister’s recent provide the context, because the vast majority…are not really reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering that relevant to the issues in question”.—[Official Report,10June the Government are investigating options to alter legislation 2010; Vol. 511, c. 578.] to address the problem. After the thought that he may However, it might be helpful for the Government to have gone through since the last debate, will the Minister have some idea of the scale of the problem. I am aware update us today on the progress of the investigations or of the need to limit public expenditure at present, and a give us a hint of the trajectory that his thought process full survey would be prohibitively expensive, but closer might take? working between the Minister, his Department and local authorities might help us all. Will the Minister therefore undertake to arrange for his officials to write Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): It would be to every relevant authority in England and Wales to remiss of me not to pay a huge tribute to my hon. seek an estimate of the extent of the problem in its area? Friend for her excellent speech. She is hitting all the In his recent debate on the issue, my hon. Friend the right buttons for me. On the Minister’s welcome point Member for Kettering listed 14 local authorities, my about looking at legislation on section 38 agreements, I own among them, with which he had been in hope that he will advise her about the point that, even if correspondence over the problems of unadopted roads. developers enter into section 38 agreements and have Their experiences are surely not atypical, which is why a bonded funds, local authorities cannot access those thorough investigation of the issues is necessary, and it bonded funds without the permission of the developer. need not be expensive. Often the developer has to go bust before the local Let me give an example of the extent of the problem. authority can access the moneys. In just one borough in Hertfordshire—Hertsmere—more than 626 out of 2,165 sections of streets, footways and Mrs Main: I thank my hon. Friend for his valuable other highways are not maintained. That represents point. He has done sterling work on the matter. What nearly a quarter of the sections of Hertsmere’s roads. he says is true. It seems that people are caught in the As I said, a lot of the data dates back to the 1970s, and dilemma that although the money is in place, no one there has been a huge expansion in building since then, can access it. They are therefore powerless to do anything so it would be helpful to get a sense of the extent of the about the road that is unadopted. I am hoping that the problem. Will the Minister agree to undertake such an Minister will give us his thoughts today, think outside exercise and to place a copy of the information that is the box and tell us what he could do. collected in the Library, so that other hon. Members can see the extent of the problem? I am told that another option is the advance payments code under the 1980 Act, which was designed to secure Where the construction of a new estate is involved, a payment of the expenses of completing roadworks in local highways authority can, under section 38 of the unadopted roads next to new buildings, and to ensure Highways Act 1980, adopt a road by agreement with that the street works authority could complete the the owner. Essentially, the developer of an estate can roadworks if a developer failed to complete them. The enter into an agreement with the highways authority to code was apparently introduced to guard against the construct streets to the authority’s satisfaction and in post-war problem of small, speculative developers, but accordance with its specification. The road then becomes my local authorities tell me that it offers little protection a highway maintainable at public expense. I should add for them on today’s large developments where access that section 38 cannot be used if the owner cannot be roads may not contain houses adjacent to the road and traced. However, Hertfordshire county council tells me are therefore not covered by the code, or where there that under the current system, when local planning might be many properties, each of which has to be dealt authorities grant permission for a development that with separately, so that strict time constraints preclude includes new roads, they cannot impose planning conditions that action. regarding the extent of highway adoption or the timing of the adoption process, nor do they have any power to The advance payments code is not implemented by force the developer to put a road up for adoption. Hertfordshire county council and has not been for at Perhaps that can be looked at under the new Government’s least 30 years. Surely that shows that it is a toothless fresh approach to planning. tiger that needs to be revisited as a piece of defunct 97WH New Roads (Hertfordshire)23 JUNE 2010 New Roads (Hertfordshire) 98WH legislation. I am told that the code is highly resource- I welcome the fact that planning is being given back intensive and that it gives little protection against the to people to decide at a local level. However, the Minister problems currently besetting Hertfordshire, not least should be aware that in district councils there are many because we are a two-tier authority, and planning is the people who are willing to serve their area but do not responsibility of the district council. Hertfordshire county necessarily know how to put in place a tough agreement council says that other highways authorities that follow to ensure that when they grant permission for a the code are in the minority and are mostly single-tier development, it has roads that are fit for purpose and authorities where the necessary communication between can be readily adopted. The two-tier council approach planners and highway engineers is more easily achieved. that we have in Hertfordshire and other areas is part of the problem. Is the Minister able to give us any comfort I just wish to touch on one further issue today. I want on how we can have input from local authorities and to give the Minister plenty of time to respond; perhaps how we can ensure that local people who wish to take my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering and I may control of planning are not left with a load of white come back at him occasionally. I want to highlight a elephants in the form of buildings on unadopted roads? particular impact that delays in the adoption of roads Perhaps he can tell us whether he is able to get a have had in recent months. We all remember that dreadful sense of the scope of the problem by writing to local cold snap in January and its effect on roads in many authorities, so that we can have the information at our areas. In Hertfordshire, we felt it particularly acutely fingertips. and it exacerbated an already dire situation regarding road surfaces in the area. As a result of two harsh cold snaps in two years, the problem is now reaching a 11.17 am tipping point for our roads. It has also affected unadopted roads. Those roads were not gritted. They were also The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport liable to damage by the weather. Some roads that were (Norman Baker): I thank my hon. Friend the Member already in a dire situation have got worse. Some roads for St Albans (Mrs Main) for, and congratulate her on, still awaiting adoption have now deteriorated in the securing this debate on an issue that is clearly important interim period and they are even less likely to lose their to her, her constituents, and the constituents of my hon. orphan status. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) and many other Members up and down the country. I know As for the question of timing, 10 years is a very long that she has tabled an early-day motion on the subject. I time in the life of a road. My constituent said that his assure her from the beginning that I am sympathetic to house was built 10 years ago, and since then significant her concerns. I know that the issue has resonance with damage has been done, especially if utilities have been other Members; the last time I checked, her early-day digging up the road and compromising its integrity. I motion had secured the support of 15 Members from shall be grateful if the Minister will say in his reply what both sides of the House, and perhaps that figure has steps are being taken to speed up the process so that now increased. As she knows, the debate that my hon. such situations do not arise in the future, with the Friend the Member for Kettering secured recently was inevitable knock-on consequence for people waiting for his second such debate in recent months, and I was their roads to be adopted. pleased to be able to respond to it. On a final note, my hon. Friend the Member for It is right to acknowledge at the outset that many Kettering stated that he was open, as I am, to practical developers routinely build roads in new developments suggestions as long as they place the cost on the appropriate to a high standard and in good time, and in many cases people and can be implemented quickly, to enable they are ready for adoption by the local highways authorities to manage the situation better. In these authority. Where developers take the right approach, harsh economic times, that is exactly the right tone. It home owners should have little cause for concern. However, should be for the people who have benefited from the I am only too aware that that is not always the case. new estates and developments to make roads up to Some developers drag their feet in bringing the roads up standard, which are then adopted with all rapidity. to an adoptable standard, and as a result, even many There needs to be a purposefulness on the part of the years after a development has been completed, some developer to bring that about. home owners find that the roads remain unfinished and unsuitable for adoption by the highways authority. That My local authority has a great deal of expertise, and I is not acceptable. know that it will welcome the chance to make practical suggestions to the Minister. Is he willing to meet My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans spoke representatives of Hertfordshire county council to discuss eloquently about the problems that can arise in such the issue in more depth, or even consider calling there cases. The obvious point is that poor road quality is a once he has ascertained the seriousness of the problem daily frustration for residents, but I am aware that in in the country, bringing the authorities together for an more extreme cases, there are concerns about damage to open, round-table discussion? Since the problems vary vehicles, the ability to enforce speed limits, and the greatly from area to area, people might throw their removal of abandoned vehicles. Such problems can and hands up in the air and say, “Nothing can be done”, but do occur on unadopted roads. The issue of access for I do not believe that that is the case. Given all the emergency vehicles has also rightly been raised with us. expertise around the country highlighting the problems I am aware that the concerns are not confined to my to the Minister and making practical suggestions, perhaps hon. Friend’s constituency. As she mentioned, it was that is something that he could put as a feather in his estimated that there were around 40,000 unadopted cap. It would be an easy win relatively early in this roads across the country in 1972. Since then, some Parliament, and prevent the problem from happening roads will have been adopted, while new roads will have any more. been built but not yet adopted. As a result, there have 99WH New Roads (Hertfordshire)23 JUNE 2010 New Roads (Hertfordshire) 100WH

[Norman Baker] have further clarified their use, setting out clear criteria. Rather than occupying the time of the House by repeating been calls for the Government to conduct a national what I said previously, I refer my hon. Friend the survey of private roads to bring the estimate up to Member for St Albans to that previous debate for date—something to which she referred. further background information on that point. While I am sympathetic to the problem, I am not The circular also states that conditions may be imposed convinced about the value of such a survey. First, any to ensure that the development proceeds in line with survey of private streets would reveal a large number of locally defined needs. For example, a condition may be streets that are never likely to be suitable for adoption, imposed to ensure that necessary infrastructure is in and in which my hon. Friend is not interested—farm place before full occupancy of the site. I understand tracks, service roads, back alleys and suchlike. Secondly, that this type of condition has been used to secure any survey would reveal some private residential streets highway infrastructure where a development would have where the residents bought their properties in the full an adverse impact on the highway network. That is knowledge that they would retain responsibility for particularly important where sites are to be delivered in ongoing maintenance, and probably—or perhaps— phases, as it allows a compromise between the needs of benefited from that being reflected in the purchase the developer to build and sell the site in phases, and the price. In many of those cases, residents are quite happy needs of the highways authority to ensure a safe and to live on a private street. suitable standard of road. In a specimen survey of 600 private streets, 63 were The planning condition route allows the local authority suitable for adoption, but only in 17 cases did the and the developer to discuss and agree the needs of the majority of the frontagers want the street adopted; that site, and to take them into account for the benefit of leaves 46. I accept that that is a small survey, but it future occupiers of the development. The Planning might give some flavour of the position out there in the Inspectorate can provide model conditions to give guidance country. To deliver useful conclusions, any national to local authorities where particularly problematic issues survey would need to identify not only the number of have been identified. My hon. Friend the Member for private streets, but the number of streets that could be St Albans might like to know that at the request of the made suitable for adoption, and that residents actually Department for Transport, and indeed the Department wanted adopted. As I am sure my hon. Friend will for Communities and Local Government, the Planning appreciate, such a survey would be large-scale, costing a Inspectorate is developing a model condition to assist significant amount of taxpayers’ money, and I am not with the problems raised in places such as Kettering and persuaded that it would offer value for money, particularly St Albans. at this time. I am not sure how such a survey would help My hon. Friend referred in passing—indirectly, at us move forward. We are fully aware of the problem and least—to problems potentially arising between two-tier sympathise. authorities. I am familiar with that situation in my constituency, where we have a district and a county Mrs Main: I completely accept that a survey would council. This is not necessarily a legislative problem, but not be a value-for-money thing and is not likely to in some cases local authorities—district and county—do happen. That is why I believe that talking to the local not work together as well as they might. It is important authorities might be useful. They will be aware of which that that is pursued from a local angle. Clearly, any roads people would like adopted but are frustrated that changes to local government functions are a matter not they cannot have adopted, and in which cases roads are for the Department for Transport but for my colleagues not adopted, but nobody wants them adopted and in the Department for Communities and Local everyone is fine with that. That is why I felt that talking Government. to the local authorities could be the way forward. Coming back to the model condition, it could offer increased consistency and certainty for authorities, some Norman Baker: I agree with that, and we are talking of which have voiced uncertainty about how planning to local authorities. I will come to that in a moment. conditions can be used robustly to specify highway The issue is not quantifying to the nth degree exactly standards, in line with the national policy set out in how many unadopted roads there are, but ensuring that planning circular 11/95. I accept that no model condition we have a full picture in the Department of the problems would offer a one-size-fits-all solution; it would need to that arise, so that we can identify solutions to move be adapted by individual authorities to suit the forward. That is what I am trying to do in my role. circumstances of particular developments. A carefully There must be two elements to any sensible strategy. designed model planning condition that can be adapted The first element is to ensure that the best possible use is for use in particular local circumstances could offer a made of the powers already available to local authorities. useful way forward. Local councils in the constituency They are not perfect, but the powers are there. I spoke of my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering have in some detail to my hon. Friend the Member for certainly indicated that they would find that helpful. Kettering about the existing tools, including planning I said in response to the previous debate on the conditions, adoption agreements and the advance payments subject that I would be prepared to explore potential code. I accept that there are limitations in respect of legislative options, and I am happy to reaffirm that some of those matters. The second element is to consider commitment. There are two particular aspects of primary whether the existing tools can be made more effective legislation that have been identified by highways authorities through changes in legislation. as being in need of review. The first is the so-called On best use of the existing tools, as I indicated in a advance payments code, to which my hon. Friend the previous debate on the subject, planning circular 11/95 Member for St Albans referred, which forms part of the sets out the uses for planning conditions, and the courts Highways Act 1980. The original purpose of the code 101WH New Roads (Hertfordshire)23 JUNE 2010 New Roads (Hertfordshire) 102WH was to allow highways authorities to secure a payment Norman Baker: We will look at how far we can get or security from developers to cover the cost of making down the track. We want to get as far down it as up the road to an adoptable standard, in the event that a possible, including through changes to legislation, if we developer failed to do so. The payment or security can make them. Certainly we will do what we can short would be available when a development reached a certain of introducing legislation, if that approach is necessary. stage, at which point the frontagers could require the Section 38 of the Highways Act 1980 is a well-used carrying out of street works and the subsequent adoption mechanism that can be very effective where a developer of the road. In effect, the deposit or security covers the is prepared to commit to making up new roads to an liability of the owners of the new homes for the cost of adoptable standard. I am aware, however, that the existing making up the street that would otherwise fall to them. arrangements place no obligation on developers to enter My hon. Friend the Member for Kettering was concerned into such an agreement, even if the authority is clear that funds under section 38 cannot be accessed by the that that would be squarely in the public interest. In the highways authority unless the developer goes bust. We debate on 10 June, I indicated to my hon. Friend the understand from the local authorities with which we Member for Kettering that I was exploring that matter have discussed the matter that they have difficulty accessing with the Department for Communities and Local funds deposited by developers, and we will examine that Government to see whether we could have issue with authority representatives as part of our review “options for legislation, including empowering local authorities of section 38 and other elements of legislation. I hope to require developers to enter into section 38 agreements.”—[Official that is helpful to my hon. Friend. Report, 10 June 2010; Vol. 511, c. 578.] Currently, under the Highways Act 1980, there is a We have had initial discussions with representatives six-week window in which the highways authority can of the Department for Communities and Local request a deposit or security. I am aware that the Government on the subject. They were not unsympathetic, usefulness of the code is weakened because, in many but the issue, both in that case and with regard to cases, there is no longer any reliable mechanism to make advance payments under the Highways Act 1980, is the highways authority aware of the start of works on a simply finding a window for legislation. Both my hon. particular development, particularly in a two-tier Friends will be aware that the coalition Government’s arrangement. As a result, the authority will not necessarily commitment is to give priority in legislation to the become aware of the need to request a deposit or elements that were included in the coalition agreement, security until after the six-week window has passed. I so that we can be seen to be delivering properly on what think that there is a good case for extending that window, we promised the public. It is a question of how much but I am advised that unfortunately that would require traffic one can get on the bridge at any time. That does primary legislation to amend the Highways Act 1980. not mean that action will not happen, but it means that That has become the issue, rather than the assessment the issue will have to take its place in the queue. We will of the applicability or suitability of the existing condition. do our best in our Department to try to find a way to progress the matter, either through primary legislation Before I move on to my conclusion, I will refer to the or through some other means that helps move matters second aspect of legislation that is in need of review, forward in a productive way. which is section 38 of the Highways Act 1980. The Department for Transport had a constructive meeting earlier this year with council representatives Mrs Main: Before the Minister moves on, may I from the Kettering constituency, which was helpful in quickly intervene? establishing the nature of the concerns and providing an initial view of some potential solutions. I am now Norman Baker: Very briefly, as I have only two minutes keen to move forward by inviting— left. Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order.

Mrs Main: Is it possible for guidance to be issued, if 11.30 am there is no wish to amend the primary legislation? Sitting suspended. 103WH 23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 104WH

Cumbrian Shootings Communities dealing with the aftershock of seismic tragedies such as that which took place on 2 June are the worst places to be invaded by the media. In such situations, there is no place for the media’s invented [MR JOE BENTON in the Chair] exclusives, its prurience and voyeurism, its mawkish brutality and its cold-blooded pursuit of profit at the expense of the families of those most affected. Everyone 2.30 pm expects intense media coverage of tragedies such as that Mr Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): The events of which affected Cumbria, but do people really expect the 2 June will never be forgotten by my community. An news to give way to entertainment? I wish to talk about ordinary day in England’s most remote and, in my the behaviour of much of the media in recent weeks, opinion, outstandingly beautiful constituency ended and the anger and dismay that it has caused among my with the senseless loss of 12 members of a remarkable community. community—the community into which I was born and May I say how grateful I am to the Minister who is to where I was raised and still live. reply to the debate? These are not exclusively Home Nothing that I or anyone in the Chamber can do or Office matters; I have some sympathy for him, as his say will undo the wrong done to my community. Nothing brief cannot cover them exhaustively. can, perhaps nothing should, ever erase the memory of I return to Tony Parsons, and to reflecting on the those events. The west Cumbrian community will be piece to which I referred earlier. It was printed under defined more by its response to those events—indeed, it the headline “The haven of decency that will remain is already being so defined—than by the events themselves. unbroken”. He wrote that west Cumbria The collective response that is sweeping across west “feels like an England that many of us remember from our Cumbria is, I believe, to those in many other parts of childhoods…An England that we thought had disappeared into the country, an enviable response. the mists of history. It is not a flashy place. It is not a place that A number of lessons are to be learned from the ever gets much attention. But it is still out there. And among all events of 2 June, and we will by no means hear an the horror, we are reminded that it is still real. And that it represents all that is best about this country and our people. No exhaustive summary of them today. One of the most place was less built for violence, and madness, and the mayhem of remarkable lessons—it is a source of the greatest pride the modern world. No place deserves it less.” for me and other west Cumbrians—is that something that we have always known can now be seen by the rest I cannot describe the effect that those words have had of the country. It is that our area, our community, our on my community, how grateful we were that we had home—the towns of Egremont and Whitehaven, and been seen as we see ourselves, and that our culture and the villages of Seascale and Boot—represent the kind of our values had been recognised. How fitting it was. It Britain that much of the rest of the country longs to be was a small way of remembering those who had been like. That view is strongly shared by His Royal Highness taken from us. I can only hope that those words helped the Prince of Wales, and by a number of the media to fetch some comfort for the families of those who lost commentators who have written about the events of family members. recent weeks. This is not false sentimentality. Many Parsons observed that when Cumbria communities outside the metropolitan areas of the United “gets attention from the leering outer world, it is seen through a Kingdom are very much like that. prism of prejudice and ignorance…It is not too much to say that I have touched on the fact that the purpose of today’s the communities of Cumbria could teach a lesson to us all.” debate is not to rake over the facts. They are not yet He continued: exhaustively understood, and will be examined in due “While we hear so much about the ugly face of the modern course. However, given what we know at the moment, I world, we forget that there is a Britain that is emphatically wish to learn what the lessons of the tragedy are for my unbroken. And where all those old virtues—decency, tolerance, community and our country. There may be lessons for kindness, innocence and goodness—still prevail and thrive.” the police, the emergency services, local authorities, and Members of Parliament as legislators—but it does not John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): necessarily follow that there will be. I wholeheartedly endorse the sentiments that my hon. Parliament will not serve my community or the country Friend expresses. In Barrow and Furness in southern well by rushing to make judgments because of the need Cumbria—I have the huge privilege of being the new to be seen to be doing something in response to the Member for that constituency—I see that spirit every tragedy. Equally, should clear lessons require us to act, day.Barrow and the surrounding area was once considered in the form of new legislation or practices, the House part of Lancaster, and many in the area still retain a would betray my constituents and the people of this great affinity with Lancashire. Indeed, if we were to country by not acting swiftly, decisively and in concert. ask, some would say that they would like to move back My community has shown itself at its best in recent to being part of it. Does my hon. Friend agree that the weeks—in truth, we usually do at such times—and it is tragedy and the many difficulties that the Cumbrian time for Parliament to follow our example. That means people have experienced in recent months underline the acting with solemnity, dignity and purpose. As Tony fact that there is a Cumbrian spirit and a Cumbrian Parsons, the author and Daily Mirror columnist put it, community? Indeed, such ties bind my constituency my community is trying to “understand the senseless”. with his and the people of that great region. So, too, must the country. In trying to reach that understanding, we must learn from the destructive behaviour Mr Reed: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. demonstrated by so many in the print and broadcast He has been a Member for only a short time, but I know media over recent weeks. of the huge esteem in which he is held by his constituents. 105WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 106WH

I am personally grateful to him for making the trip to speak to them on learning that they were journalists. Whitehaven on the weekend after the shootings to pay That reflects badly on those journalists; naming them tribute, on behalf of his constituents and everybody in would surprise nobody and so serves no purpose today. the Furness region, to people 40 miles to the north. We were standing shoulder to shoulder. My hon. Friend is I come to the second lesson. One price we pay for a absolutely right to talk about community spirit and free press is its freedom to write such misleading and community values. One of the lessons that we need to opinionated bile. However, press intrusion is not a price learn is that that spirit and those values do not come anyone has ever agreed to pay. Nobody ever agreed to about by accident; there is a deep cultural purpose to have journalists camped on their doorsteps while they those values, but they are supported, helped and were in the immediate aftermath of bereavement; to strengthened by policy decisions taken by the House. have friends and family members offered money if they There will be a time to address such matters, but it is not spoke to, or obtained a photo of, a distraught relative of now. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments. one of those who died; or to have six-figure sums paid for exclusives, or smaller sums paid to them if they Tony Parsons continued his article by saying: could tell the whereabouts or movements of certain “No, this Britain is not broken.” individuals, even if those individuals would be going to That is the spirit to which my hon. Friend alluded. school that day. Perhaps most fittingly, Parsons gave us—or at least If the west Cumbrian community demonstrates just me—a simple phrase that encapsulates not simply the how far from being broken Britain really is, then behaviour area but those whom I represent. Home to England’s like that from certain sections of the media demonstrates deepest lake and tallest mountain, he wrote that we just how dysfunctional and broken the media’s values have are, and that their attempts to infect decent society with “a beauty that is beyond landscape.” their values are iniquitous and wrong. I know journalists who have had their stomachs turned by the actions of When that was read out in church on the Sunday some in their fold—they are far from being all the after the tragedy, I am told that it had a remarkable same—but surely such behaviour cannot be sanctioned effect on a usually stoic congregation. It certainly had a and must be stopped. To that end, I will write to the remarkable effect on me, and I will always be grateful. National Union of Journalists and the Press Complaints Why is it important? It is because the media, perhaps Commission to seek meetings, and to discuss how the the most important force in our society—more so even issue can be taken forward and how professional codes than politics and politicians, even those in the Chamber of practice can be improved significantly. I have spent today; we kid ourselves if we say that that is not so much time talking about the media because the so—have the ability to achieve so much good. We all activities of certain sections of them have weighed know that the truth will set us free—it is a well-known particularly heavily on the community in recent weeks. phrase and a cliché, but it is true—so why do the media They have caused particular distress, anger and concern, turn their collective back when they have the capacity to and I feel duty-bound to articulate those concerns achieve so much good, so readily and so often? today. The media local to the tragedy—the Whitehaven News, the News & Star, the North West Evening Mail, Border The third lesson, so far, of the Cumbrian tragedy will television, BBC Radio Cumbria and “Look North”— be to review gun law; that is now essential. It does not reported the tragedy with a care and diligence entirely necessarily mean that gun law can, will or should change; different from that of the national media. That is because we must await the full facts of the case before we can they are rooted in the area and care about the people assess them through the prism of the gun ownership about whom they are reporting. They understand the laws. If any changes to the law could have prevented this power of their roles and the effects of carrying them out tragedy, reduced its chances of happening or mitigated in particular ways. The Whitehaven News was particularly its effects, then it is a reasonable proposition to expect impressive, as just one week before, it had reported the those changes to be made. Certainly, those are the views tragic deaths of Kieran Goulding and Chloe Walker, of some of the family members of those who lost their constituents who were killed in the Keswick bus crash. lives on 2 June. However, we do not yet know if changes Like the News & Star,theWhitehaven News understands are necessary. the role that it plays in my community and how it can The fourth lesson—this is imperative—is that the help the community’s healing process—not the families’ Government should release the £100 million pledged by healing process, perhaps, but certainly the community’s. the previous Labour Government to rebuild the West To give a parallel—I know that this is a difficult issue— Cumberland hospital in Whitehaven. The cheque for certain national newspapers have elicited feelings in my the new development was in our hands on election day community similar to those that were elicited in Liverpool but taken from us when the new coalition Government by the way that the Hillsborough tragedy was reported. were formed. The hospital is the fulcrum of my community The first lesson of the tragedy is that communities and the entire west Cumbrian community, and such as mine have a lot to teach other parts of the demonstrated its worth again and again in the days and country about the power of community, cohesion, social weeks that followed 2 June. Halfway through the general justice, compassion and solidarity. Social policy must election campaign this year, that hospital saved my life, protect and strengthen those values and virtues. The and it has saved countless more since. When my community second lesson is not to seek to curb the freedom of the needed it most, it was impeccable. The Prime Minister press or broader media, but to seek a better, enforceable saw for himself just what a remarkable and valuable code of conduct for the media. Certain desperate, spiteful group of professionals there are at the West Cumberland journalists have written some dreadfully inaccurate copy hospital. I ask the Government again today to please simply because members of the community would not release the funds required without any further delay. 107WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 108WH

[Mr Reed] but that is the rule, and I thought that I ought to point it out. At least hon. Members are now aware of that and Demolition of the old hospital has commenced in can keep it in mind. anticipation of the new-build programme, and any delay beyond September will have serious consequences for 2.48 pm the project, for service configuration and for the entire community. Please return to my community the money Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South given to us by the previous Government. The Government Pembrokeshire) (Con): I endorse the comments of the must acknowledge the importance of the matter and act hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed). All of us who in the only human, compassionate way imaginable by represent rural communities—I represent one on the returning this money as soon as possible. west coast of Wales—can only imagine how dreadful an experience the event that we are discussing must have There will be other lessons—about the value of GP been. Everyone in the House and elsewhere will be practices, retained fire fighters, the civil nuclear constabulary, reflecting on the things that the hon. Gentleman put so the Church and the essential role played by voluntary eloquently, and on the measured response that he and agencies. Those lessons need to be brought before the other professionals in his area have so diligently delivered House, and I expect that they will; that should happen for the rest of us. I should declare a bit of an interest, in soon. I am grateful to the Home Office for the interest it that before coming into the House I represented an has shown and the time that it has taken to address the organisation that had rural communities at its heart. I issues so far. I expect a full and frank inquiry, the terms have been lucky enough to travel to many isolated areas, of which should be determined principally by my including the hon. Gentleman’s. community and the families of those affected. It is sometimes quite difficult to articulate to the I expect that the Select Committee on Home Affairs wider public exactly what a rural community is—what will want to undertake its own investigations, too. I am its strengths are and why we are so passionate about it. particularly grateful to the Chair of the Home Affairs It is also sometimes difficult to articulate what a blow Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester an event such as this can be. Of course, it would be a East (Keith Vaz), for visiting my constituency earlier blow to any community, but purely because of where I this week to speak with Cumbria constabulary and have worked and where I live, I feel that I understand Copeland borough council about their experiences in where the hon. Gentleman is coming from. For that, I recent weeks. That was extremely beneficial and welcome. am extremely grateful. For the benefit of all those affected, inquiries should probably be undertaken sooner rather than later, but The hon. Gentleman made his strongest point when not in an immediate rushed sense. he said that we should proceed from here on the basis of the facts. In the past, there have been occasions when It is imperative that no inquiry should begin with the the instant reaction to a dreadful event has been a little purpose of attributing blame. The conclusions of the too knee-jerk, political and shy of the facts. That has Association of Chief Police Officers investigation that meant that the problem has not been dealt with and is currently under way should be placed in the public that people who should not have been caught up in the domain as soon as it is completed. The Cumbrian aftermath have been punished or penalised. The hon. constabulary has nothing to hide and is a source of Gentleman’s approach to this matter has been absolutely pride among my community. It performed fantastically right, and has been generally endorsed across the House. on 2 June as events unfolded, and I know, through my conversations with it, that it is determined for the full John Woodcock: I absolutely endorse the sentiments facts of the investigation to be known by the public. No expressed by the hon. Gentleman and echo his call for price can be placed on the truth—that is what we seek our response to be fact-driven, but may I ask him before anything else. We do not want inquiries that seek whether he has any examples of knee-jerk and political to validate opinions or theories; we want the facts, and responses to tragedies and of when the right outcome those facts must be acted on. Other issues, such as the has not followed on from events? support services in place for the bereaved and applications to the criminal injuries compensation scheme must be Simon Hart: Yes, I have. Responses such as the Dangerous addressed, but those are not issues for today.Fundamentally, Dogs Act 1991 and legislation passed by a Conservative the concern of politicians must remain once the cameras Government in relation to handguns did not achieve have moved away. the objectives that this place and the public wanted, Finally, none of us will ever forget Michael Pike, which is why there has been an ongoing debate about Garry Purdham, David Bird, Kevin Commons, Susan their effectiveness. There are also plenty of examples of Hughes, Kenneth Fishburn, Jane Robinson, Darren people who have been adversely affected by the passing Rewcastle, Jennifer and James Jackson, Isaac Dixon of that legislation. People at whom the legislation was and Jamie Clark, and this House owes it to their memories, aimed have hardly been touched at all, which is why a their families and my community to understand and act private Member’s Bill on dangerous dogs is starting its on the lessons of 2 June. They deserve nothing less. process in the House of Lords as we speak. There are probably more examples, but those are two with which I Several hon. Members rose— am familiar. I want to cover just one area of the four that the hon. Mr Joe Benton (in the Chair): Before I call the next Gentleman mentioned. Due to my previous interest in speaker, I point out for the benefit of new Members countryside activities, I should like to focus on the that if they have not already made their maiden speech, shooting community. I must be very careful about that they may speak here, but they then forgo their right to a because I do not want to underplay the seriousness of traditional maiden speech in the Chamber. I am sorry, the situation or give any impression that those who 109WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 110WH shoot, either recreationally or as part of their daily someone they certified as safe to own and use a weapon lives, are not sympathetic to the points that the hon. subsequently turned out not to be. There may also be Gentleman made. Moreover, those who shoot are not GPs who have a fundamental dislike of weapon ownership unrealistic about the fact that many things will need to and shooting-related activities; that might put them and be reconsidered in the near rather than the distant the applicant in a difficult position. future by this House and the other place. There is a real From the perspective of both a rural community and awareness that these are important issues, and nobody I an urban community that has access to and enjoys know who possesses a shotgun or firearm certificate— weapons for whatever purpose, there is a real willingness professional or otherwise—is in any doubt about the to engage in the debate that has emerged from this need to get right to the heart of the problem. tragic event. I do not think that anybody is under any illusion about the changes, but what I hope we can do is Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): Does the hon. strike a proper balance between the safety of the public Gentleman agree that it is in no one’s interest to have a and proportionality as far as our freedom to own and knee-jerk response? He is talking about the shooting use weapons is concerned. If we can achieve that balance fraternity, but it is not in the interests of the community as a consequence of the hon. Gentleman’s efforts, we of west Cumbria, or anywhere else, to have a knee-jerk will have made sensible progress. reaction. What we need, and what my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) was asking for, is a thorough inquiry into the matter. I repeat: no one—but 2.57 pm no one—wants a knee-jerk reaction. Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to be in a debate under your chairmanship, Mr Benton; I Simon Hart: I absolutely agree. We cannot proceed think that this is the first such occasion for me. I am without the facts. We cannot proceed sensibly until we pleased to be following the hon. Member for Carmarthen have had the results of the inquiry by the Association of West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). One of Chief Police Officers and of other investigations that the great values of this House is that Members come may be associated with, or just on the fringes of, this from so many different backgrounds. They are able to particular incident. Yes, of course I endorse what the give the House their experience and expertise in areas of hon. Gentleman has said. policy of which some of us have absolutely no experience. There is increasing evidence that, in many areas, gun I represent an urban constituency, which does not have crime is coming down while weapon ownership is going anything like the open space and rural background of up, and interesting statistics on Scotland have recently the constituencies of many hon. Members here this been published on that score. Fewer than 0.5% of crimes afternoon. involving weapons that have resulted in death or injury I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for have involved licensed weapons—shotguns, in particular. Copeland (Mr Reed) for the way in which he has As for the safety of the activity across the EU, target- conducted himself as Member of Parliament for the shooting activities are among the safest for members of area where the event that we are discussing took place. the public to take part in. If there is a lesson to be drawn It must have been a 24/7 experience, the like of which from that, it is that any changes in legislation should be none of us would ever want to be involved in. Of about the people who possess and use weapons rather course, we are always there to represent our constituents than the weapons themselves. I mentioned the error that every moment we are in the House, but what he had to the Conservative Government made in relation to handguns. go through was exceptional. He conducted himself with In that instance, they focused too much on the weapon, enormous dignity, and he is a credit to his constituency and not enough on the people who were ultimately and to this House. going to be using it. Moreover, there is not much evidence to suggest that Tony Cunningham: I just want to endorse what my shortening the certificate period for weapon ownership right hon. Friend has said about my hon. Friend the would have made much difference in these or other Member for Copeland. However, there is one word that circumstances. Likewise, it is uncertain whether any he did not use that I should like to add—it is “leadership”. evidence supports the theory that it is acceptable for That is what communities would always want to see in people to keep no more than a certain number of guns. their MP in such difficult circumstances. Throughout this entire tragedy, my hon. Friend has shown real I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s comments about leadership and he is to be commended for that. the media. The distinction in approach between the national and regional media resonates with rural Keith Vaz: Indeed; my hon. Friend is absolutely right communities. The idea that people would have to show to say so. As we are in the business of acknowledging a good reason for owning a weapon would be unlikely hon. Members, I should say that all the other Members to make much difference, although I am not talking with Cumbrian constituencies who are here today also about this specific incident. played their parts in responding to this tragedy—the Lastly, let me turn to the thorny issue of mental hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) health checks for people who wish to acquire and use and my hon. Friends the Members for Barrow and weapons. The shooting community is particularly conscious Furness (John Woodcock) and for Workington (Tony of the matter and is inclined to investigate it further. Cunningham). Those constituencies were just names to Those checks have to find a way of safely predicting me until I went to Whitehaven on Monday. As I went dangerousness, and that will be a very complicated down the motorway, I saw all those constituency names; medical judgment. GPs, who could be the final arbiters I am sorry that I did not have a chance to notify the in applications, might be put in a very tricky position as Members that I was driving past, as is the convention, far as potential liability is concerned if it emerged that but I tried my very best. 111WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 112WH

[Keith Vaz] Although the deputy chief constable of Cumbria did not ask for additional resources, there may be a resources I will speak very briefly as I know that other hon. issue. As a second point of clarification, I seek an Members who represent Cumbria wish to be involved in assurance from the Minister that, if those additional the debate. I was in Whitehaven in Copeland on Monday, resources are necessary, they will be provided. at the invitation of my hon. Friend the Member for The deputy chief constable spoke intelligently about Copeland, as I had expressed the view that it was the fact that Cumbria does not own a helicopter, for important that we not only looked at the overall area of example. He also said that, in his view, Cumbria does policy that is paramount in this particular case, but not need one. A deal had been done with another recognised, following statements made by the Prime force—the Greater Manchester force, or perhaps the Minister and the Home Secretary, that it was important Merseyside force—to provide a helicopter when it was that Parliament itself should look at the events that had required. Obviously, not all police forces can have their occurred in this tragic set of circumstances. own helicopters, but there may well be resource implications Of course, those of us who live outside Cumbria send that need to be examined in the cold light of day. our condolences to the families of those who have died; I hope that in the meantime, before we get to the it must be an awful experience for those families. On conclusion of the inquiries, whatever Cumbria’s police Monday, I met the vicar of Egremont and he told me ask for and whatever hon. Members feel is appropriate about the funerals that he had conducted and the fact is provided. I know that the Prime Minister has said to that it is a very close-knit community—everyone knows my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland that he is everyone else. The tragedy is taken very personally. keen to know the views of local people; I know that, The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South because my hon. Friend told me so on Monday. If the Pembrokeshire and my hon. Friend the Member for local people ask for something, I hope that it will be Copeland are absolutely right: the reaction of politicians, granted. including the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, As we all know, we are in something of a limbo was spot on. There was no rush to judgment. There was situation. As we speak, there are elections for the a careful and measured approach, as was demonstrated membership of the Home Affairs Committee, so that by my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland here in Committee has not yet been formed. However, at our Westminster Hall today. That approach was also reflected first meeting I will certainly recommend to members of in the statement of the Prime Minister when he went to the Committee that we should look at this area, because Cumbria and by the Home Secretary in her statement I think that it is important that Parliament itself should to the House, which she made very soon after this examine the wider issues. We should not necessarily tragedy. examine the detail of what happened, although of course It was right to say that we have to wait and see. There we will need to take evidence from those involved, but must not be a rush to judgment. Let us look at the facts, we should examine the wider area of the policy issues see exactly what happened and consider, in a careful that emanate from what has happened. and measured way, how to proceed. I think that that is As I am sure the hon. Member for Carmarthen West what will happen in this particular case. and South Pembrokeshire will remind us, we have some of the tightest and strictest gun laws in the world and Nevertheless, I feel that it is important that there people will find it amazing that anyone should have should be an urgency about getting to the facts. My been able to do what this person did to the citizens of hon. Friend and I had a meeting with the deputy chief Cumbria and then to himself. However, the fact is that constable of Cumbria, Stuart Hyde, who talked about a we will have to look at the issue of gun law in the round. series of inquiries that were taking place. Clearly, the It would be very odd if we did not look at it. police do not want to leave things in a position where people have any further questions to ask, so there are a I think that that is what my hon. Friend is talking series of inquiries. There is the inquiry into the issuing about; he is not saying that there should be an instant of the gun licence, the inquiry into the circumstances of revision of firearms legislation, but that we need to look the day itself and another internal inquiry that the at firearms legislation in context. The Home Affairs police are conducting. Those inquiries are all very important Committee last looked at this issue 10 years ago, when and very relevant. we made certain recommendations about having people on the national register. Immediately, the issue of data At the end of the day, however, judging from the sharing is important too. When a gun licence is applied limited time that I spent in Cumbria, the interests of for and the data about that application are held locally, the constituents of my hon. Friend and other what happens to them? Are they available to others? Cumbrian MPs will not be served until all the facts of the case come out, so that people know precisely what So broad issues need to be raised, without our getting happened. That is important, although not so much for into the finer detail of this case, because that is what the us to guard against this tragedy happening again— people will require. Of course, it is up to the Committee because, although we do not know the full facts yet, we to decide on the inquiries that it carries out. It is not up think that this tragedy could have happened anywhere to the Chairman, even in these days of electing Chairmen in the country at any time; this was not a premeditated and having independence and accountability to Parliament. series of events. It is important because it is right that But I very much hope that this is an issue that we will the public should know about the full sequence of look at when we have the opportunity to do so. events. So I hope that when the Minister responds to My hon. Friend mentioned a number of other issues the debate, he will tell us something about the timetable concerning the media and his local hospital. On the that has been placed on the local police force in media, I think that he has made some very valid points. Cumbria. It is important that we look at how these matters are 113WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 114WH reported and he is absolutely right to want to write to constituency when the shots were fired. In all that we broadcasters and the Press Complaints Commission do, I hope that we reflect that dense web of Cumbrian asking them to look at the overall handling of this culture in two specific ways. I hope that we look at the situation. lessons of the tragedy in terms, first of distance and My hon. Friend is also right to praise his local media, secondly of the way in which we conduct the inquiry. as we all do, because they have a better feel for local Both should reflect Cumbrian approaches. people. They are unwilling to trample on the lives of In terms of distance, we need to understand the sad people, either the living or the deceased, because they but powerful lesson that we represent a county defined know that they will be meeting them again. For the by its sparse population and long distances. That is why national media, it is something of a visit; they may be the West Cumberland hospital matters and why we in there 24/7 during the rolling period of a crisis, but they Penrith and The Border think all the time about what then go away quite swiftly to the next story. My hon. would have happened had some terrible tragedy occurred Friend’s concern is about how the story was reported at in Kirkby Stephen, which is an hour and a half from the the time and I was certainly told about examples of Carlisle hospital. cheque-book journalism and other issues of that kind, In this time of potential budgetary cuts, we need to which really ought to be explored. He is right to raise fight hard to make sure that the police services that got this whole issue of the media; it is one of the lessons of 47 armed officers on the ground within an hour continue Cumbria and one of the points that we need to remember. to be able to do that. We should also remember that As for my hon. Friend’s local hospital, I am sure that recent events are an argument against hasty amalgamations, he makes his case more powerfully than anyone else against closing our cottage hospitals and turning them here can, and I am sure that that case has been heard by into big hospitals, and against amalgamating the Cumbrian Ministers. I wish him well in what he seeks to achieve. police with the Lancashire police. As we have seen, local In conclusion, the people of Whitehaven, its local services are much more responsive and flexible, and Member of Parliament and the other Members of they can draw on services available in other parts of the Parliament who represent the region desperately want country and make them operate more effectively. to return to normality. I had never been to Whitehaven We need to fight for such things. That is partly before Monday. It sounds odd, but I think that the because although Cumbria is one—although we are a furthest north that I had travelled in England previously dense web—the needs of people in Copeland are very was to Carlisle; of course I had been to Scotland before, different from those of people in Penrith and The including to the western isles many years ago on Border. Although we are one, we are also divided in parliamentary business. very sad ways. The life expectancy figures on the west On my visit to Whitehaven, I saw a very beautiful coast are nearly 20 years shorter than those in the east place; it was absolutely stunningly beautiful. Local people, of Cumbria. Those are the kinds of things that we need including the excellent leader of the local Labour group, to work together to overcome. They are also the reason Elaine Woodburn, and the local vicar, Richard Lee, why all our specific services—the police, the fire service wanted to return to normality. They want Whitehaven and social services—need to be local, adept, flexible and Cumbria to be remembered for the beautiful places and focused on specific communities and to be pragmatic that they are, rather than for any other reason. We have in responding to them. a duty to ensure that they are able to return to that That brings us to the inquiry. The hon. Member for position. We also have a duty to ensure that all the facts Copeland talked about Cumbrian virtues. As he said, come out. I hope that the Minister will assure us that the fundamental element of Cumbria and of the whole the Government are also keen that that should happen. border is people who are slow to react and slow to anger, but who, when they are determined, are resolute and focused. Let us hope that the inquiry reflects those 3.9 pm values. As the hon. Gentleman said, we should not rush Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con): I was into anything, but once a decision is made we should not intending to make a maiden speech today, but I can stick with it and push it through. think of no better example of what Parliament is about We should not have some grand commission based in than the issue that the hon. Member for Copeland London, with people who know nothing about Cumbria, (Mr Reed) has brought us. There is a precision, a guns or mental health pontificating in an abstract fashion. compassion and a sense of dialogue and openness in We need the very virtues that the hon. Gentleman saw this room that I wish was more present on the Floor of in the local newspapers to be part of a local inquiry and the House, so I am proud to be making my maiden a local commission. Those involved should include speech. The hon. Gentleman’s contribution was immensely mental health professionals, the police and, above all, deeply felt and measured. He balanced the kind words Cumbrians. Too often, our farmers and our teachers of Tony Parsons with the horror of cheque-book are ignored in favour of distant bureaucrats. Let the journalism. His commitment to the West Cumberland commission and the inquiry reflect Cumbrian values; hospital really came across, and I very much hope that let those involved be slow to anger and resolute, but also our Government will be able to sustain the hospital. As precise, pragmatic and focused on the exact events of the hon. Gentleman said, the Prime Minister was very the day of the shootings. impressed by his visit. On that point, let me end my maiden speech by As the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John saying that it is a great honour to stand in this room Woodcock) pointed out, Cumbria is a dense and complex with the hon. Gentleman, who is an impressive leader. web, which stretches across the artificial boundaries It is also a great honour to participate in a debate that created by the Boundary Commission. Grandchildren shows the precision, level of inquiry and openness that I of constituents in Brampton were in the hon. Gentleman’s hope can characterise the House as a whole. 115WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 116WH

3.14 pm 3.19 pm Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): If this was Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is a the Floor of the House of Commons, I presume that pleasure and a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, the tradition would be for me to pay tribute to the Mr. Benton. I thank and pay tribute to the hon. Member maiden speech that we have just heard. I know that this for Copeland (Mr Reed)—I will call him my hon. is not the Floor of the House, but with your permission, Friend—for bidding for and getting the debate. I also Mr. Benton, I would like to pay tribute to the hon. pay tribute—not out of form, but out of sincerity—to Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). I my neighbour, the hon. Member for Penrith and The congratulate him on his excellent and moving maiden Border (Rory Stewart). He has stepped out of line in a speech and thank him for his genuine concern, which courageous way and made a maiden speech in an was heartfelt. It was very much appreciated by myself unconventional place and an unconventional manner and, I am sure, by my hon. Friend the Member for on an issue that genuinely matters. I am sure that that Copeland (Mr Reed). will be noted by many. I pay tribute to the emergency services and the wider There are not words to describe the horrors of 2 June community. We can only imagine what the emergency and what followed, but there are words to describe the services—the police, the hospital staff, the doctors and response of the community—compassion and solidarity, the nurses—had to face, given the severity of the gunshot above all others. As the hon. Member for Workington wounds; it must have been absolutely awful for the (Tony Cunningham) and the hon. Member for Copeland police officers and the doctors and nurses who looked said, that response defined and continues to define what after people. happened. The hon. Member for Copeland in many ways embodies that spirit, not just by showing leadership The majority of the armed response officers who in his community on the tragedy that we are debating, were involved were not police officers, but Civil Nuclear but in his response to the other tragedies that took place Constabulary officers. They are not the Minister’s only days earlier. responsibility, although the Home Office often believes that they are. However, I ask the Minister to take a There has been talk about London journalists. I am personal interest in the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, more used to reading Tony Parsons’s comments about which would like a number of issues to be looked at. I 1970s pop culture than what he writes about modern pay tribute to its officers, as well as to the police, tragedy in west Cumbria. However, he and other journalists because they did a fantastic job. who went there, whose conduct we will perhaps talk about in a moment, came away staggered by the strength One group that we sometimes forget is the Churches. of the communities and their response. London journalists They were in evidence in huge amounts, as was the make it their business in their line of work to visit the desperate spiritual need that the community felt. Whatever scene of dreadful tragedies. I am not trying to create a the denomination, the Churches played a significant league table of community response, but without a part, and I pay tribute to them. doubt they have been staggered by the tremendous solidarity shown in the communities of Cumbria—not For a couple of weeks after the shootings, I carried just those that were directly affected, but communities around the article that Tony Parsons wrote in the Daily throughout the county. Mirror on the Saturday. I would be in the pub and I would tell people who were talking to me about the Craig Mackey, the chief constable of Cumbria, who tragedy to read it. Not a single person who did was not has been a policeman for 25 years, said that the event wiping away a tear when they had finished—it was so was by far the most hideous thing he had ever had to moving. We should compare that article with what I can deal with—and he has seen some pretty hideous things. only describe as some of the rubbish that was written. I As has been mentioned by the hon. Member for Penrith sent a little handwritten note to Tony Parsons—I hope and The Border, NHS staff and experienced police that he got it—telling him what we in the community officers had never seen a gunshot wound, never mind felt about his article. several of them in one day. It needs to be said that they dealt with things with stoicism, compassion and On West Cumberland hospital, I spoke to a senior professionalism. We expect the emergency services to be member of the community, who simply asked, “How on outstanding, and they were, under extreme pressure. In earth could anyone ever dream of not giving us the many cases they put themselves in harm’s way to provide money?” We should think of what the hospital has been assistance to stricken people. They dealt with physical through. We had the floods last November, the terrible and emotional traumas on that hideous day. The police, tragedy of the Keswick coach accident and then the national health service staff—ambulance drivers, shootings. How could people even think of not giving paramedics, doctors and nurses—mountain rescue teams, the area the money that has been promised? I do not volunteers and others put themselves in harm’s way to think that they can, but we will continue to fight to provide assistance when it was important. make sure that the money is made available and that we get a brand-new hospital. My constituency was not touched directly by the shootings, although the towns and villages of Ambleside, The weekend after the tragedy, I was standing at the Coniston, Grasmere and Hawkshead were put on lockdown bar in my local pub talking to a friend. We were talking for much of that day, as it was feared that the gunman about how awful, difficult and tragic the shootings were could arrive on the streets at any time. Cumbria is a and about the enormity of what had happened. My huge county, but it feels small after such an incident. friend looked at me and said, “We’ll get through this Connections emerge all over the place. My 25-year-old though. You know why? Because we’re west Cumbrians.” brother-in-law will not mind my saying that he is a On that note, I would like to finish. rookie policeman, and for him it has been a baptism of 117WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 118WH fire; and a close friend of mine happened to be on the the hurt and suffering of their west Cumbrian neighbours, campsite at Boot where the final shootings took place. friends and colleagues, and are at a loss to know how to Even aside from such personal connections, if you kick help, but they stand ready, as we all do, to try to help the one Cumbrian we all limp; and there is a sense of community through. solidarity and standing together that shines through. I do not want to add to the comments on the national To echo the comments of most of the hon. Members press, because a powerful case has been made about who have spoken, a knee-jerk response from legislators what people have seen at first hand, and the effect on would not be sensible. That does not mean that there the community. However, I want to mention the local should be no response; but hard, tragic cases make bad press. I fully endorse the huge value of the community law, without a shadow of a doubt, and the laws passed role that it plays throughout the year, in community in response to previous tragedies have clearly not prevented events big and small—and never does it play that role subsequent ones. We should not jump to conclusions. more fully than in such circumstances as we are debating. There is always a sense—which I share—that something The local press and media are going through difficult must be done; we feel powerless. For now, at least, that times; part of that is due to reforms that they are something is to support the community and help it to undertaking to try to ensure that they are financially recover. Lessons must be learned thoroughly. It goes viable at a time when technological change makes that without saying that there will be no trial, and that is increasingly difficult. However, the Government must why a full—and I would say public—inquiry is crucial, continue to look for ways to support local papers and on terms set, as has already been said, by the community. media. I hope that they will think carefully when they That should not be to point the finger at anyone other consider their policy on public advertising, for example, than the culprit—not the emergency services or anyone which has the potential to take out a vital income else—but an inquiry is necessary to enable us to learn stream from the local press. That would make things far lessons from the tragedy. more difficult. It is so important that we keep such There are some lessons that we should not learn. Like institutions able to serve the community. the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John I endorse the case that has been made for continued Woodcock), whom I welcome to the House, I represent investment in the police and the hospital in the area. a good chunk of what is rightly Lancashire, but some of They are early examples—there will be so many more of the patronising stuff written in the media focused on them as the weeks and months go by—of cases where Cumbria being a pitifully small county with a police the need to ensure the sustainability of the public force that cannot deal with its problems. That is nonsense. finances nationally runs hard against local communities’ Recently there was a proposal to merge Cumbria and needs for continuation of services. No one can pretend Lancashire police forces; that would be the wrong lesson that this Government will not face difficult choices, or to learn. It would not help the grieving communities to that any party that had won would not have done so. put their police headquarters in Preston rather than That is why it is essential that the efficiencies that we Penrith. make are not driven beyond what is ultimately best for Finally, I endorse the comments of the hon. Member the economy, and do not damage our local communities for Copeland about the reaction of elements of the to such an extent that it will be difficult for them to media. The media must leave families to grieve and to recover. I am not making a party political point; I recover in dignity and peace. We must not, in future, simply urge Members on both sides of the House to allow them to turn such tragedies into a mawkish circus. bear that in mind. On the inquiry, it is clear that looking at mental health provision in respect of firearms licensing is absolutely 3.26 pm necessary, as is a review of mental health provision in John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): the community generally. We do not know—we can I want briefly to add to what has been said, and to pay never fully know—but it is extraordinarily unlikely that tribute to an excellent and unconventional maiden speech a person would flip overnight from being completely by the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory mentally stable to committing such dreadful atrocities. Stewart), which was quietly powerful. I also want to It may be that we are talking about something that it add to the comments on how my hon. Friend the simply was not feasible to have picked up, but that is a Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) has conducted himself. point to consider when we look at mental health provision All new Members come here wanting to represent our in the wider community. communities in the best way, and we look for examples Finally, I endorse what everyone has said about the of ways to do that; my hon. Friend has been an inspiration need to look at gun licensing thoroughly in the round, to me and others by his leadership in such difficult and to not make a knee-jerk response, but I urge the times, speaking out and representing a community in Government to come to the matter with an open mind, great pain. That will always stay with me. and not a preconceived idea that legislation to restrict My constituency is south of my hon. Friend’s, and guns is not the way to go; that would steer them on to like that of the hon. Member for Westmorland and another path. Lonsdale (Tim Farron), it was not directly affected, We may review the matter and decide that the laws although the town of Broughton was put under lockdown are as tight as they feasibly can be and that, given the when no one knew where the gunman was going. Also, balance of risk, the restrictions that would have to be about 700 people a day travel to Sellafield to work, so imposed for further tightening would be disproportionate, there are deep ties, including family ties, there. Everyone but it would have been far less likely that a man who knows someone who has moved down from Whitehaven, had a licence to use firearms for sport would have gone or moved up, and the family bonds between those areas on a lethal killing spree if he had not had access to are incredibly strong. I know that my constituents see those guns. That does not prejudge any review of the 119WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 120WH

[John Woodcock] It is entirely right that investigations are taking place into what happened in west Cumbria on 2 June. As my balance to be struck and the consequences of further right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith tightening, but it is essential that the matter is looked at Vaz) said, issues will be raised around resources and as a separate question. Clearly, in rural areas such as how they were deployed, and the resources that will be mine and across the whole of Cumbria, farmers have a available in the future. It will seem incongruous to real need for firearms, but we must be prepared to take people for whom this is a raw and recent memory that an open-minded look at guns for sport, and all the pros the chief constable and the police authority in Cumbria and cons. should be discussing the loss of dozens of front-line officer posts at a time when the force has faced perhaps Simon Hart: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? its greatest challenge. We also heard about the West Cumberland hospital. John Woodcock: I was about to finish, but I shall give I hope that these matters can be dealt with sensitively. way. I know that the Minister, who I welcome to his post—I wish that it had been under other circumstances, but I Simon Hart: I simply want to pick up on the issue of do welcome him—is a decent man, and that he will fight the review of mental health provision, which the hon. the Home Office corner. I would expect that his colleagues Gentleman rightly raised. Most people would be open- in the Department of Health would do the same. Members minded about such a review, and I agree that it should of Parliament from that part of the country are fighting proceed on the basis of evidence rather than anything the corner on behalf of their constituents, and I expect else, but surely there can be no distinction between Ministers to do the same, because public services in this people who own weapons for sport and people who context—the emergency services—are synonymous with own weapons as part of their livelihood when it comes public safety. to mental health assessment. The Government were entirely right not to rush to legislation, but it would be wrong to dismiss the positive John Woodcock: That is a good point. I was not effects of the earlier legislation which was referred to, thinking of that specifically when I spoke about a particularly that following Hungerford and Dunblane. review of mental health provision, although those issues As the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale must form part of it. As I said, it may be impractical to (Tim Farron) said, it may not have prevented this tragedy—it say that guns that are held for sport should not be kept did not—but it may have prevented tragedies in other at home but in some kind of secure premises, but it is circumstances. right that we examine the matter and look at whether a We have one of the strictest gun control regimes in distinction can be made between guns that are needed the world, but if there are lessons to be learned we must by farmers, which clearly need to be kept at home, and learn them, and if changes need to be made we must guns used for sport, which one cannot say need to be make them. We should await the outcome of the kept at home. It may be disproportionately difficult to Association of Chief Police Officers peer review of put in place other arrangements, but I hope that the what happened in Cumbria, but there are already existing issue will be properly examined as part of the Government’s concerns. I do not want to prejudge that inquiry in any inquiry. way, but as the hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) said, questions must be asked, and in the fullness of time we should try to 3.35 pm answer them. He and I may have slightly different views, Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab): It is customary although I am by no means against people using guns on such occasions to congratulate the Member who as part of their jobs or sporting activities, but was it secured the debate, but I know that on this occasion my right, with hindsight, to move from three-year to five-year hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed), like licences? Is there not a danger that when applying for a me, wishes that we were not here and that the events had licence by post or, heaven forbid, by iPhone, as a media not happened—but they did. He spoke movingly and report suggested this week, the police will not make a with great dignity and bravery. I want to place on the visit? Such visits are not a statutory obligation, but record the high regard in which I hold him, as a result of might keep gun owners on their toes and allow their not just what has happened in the past few weeks but families to raise any concerns. the work that he has done on behalf of his community Reference was made to health care professionals, but and the leadership that he has shown, which has also if data protection concerns can be overcome, it would been shown by my hon. Friends the Members for be sensible for health care professionals to be able to Workington (Tony Cunningham) and for Barrow and flag up any concerns. I accept that such issues might Furness (John Woodcock) and, indeed, all hon. Gentlemen have had little bearing on what happened in west Cumbria, from that part of the world, as their local communities where police checks are carried out, but those concerns faced such tragedy. Our condolences go to the friends are legitimate, and we should discuss every aspect of and families of those whose lives were taken. them. I have looked back at earlier debates on gun I wish to pay tribute, as many speakers have, to the control, and much was said about the cost of the emergency services in the affected communities and bureaucracy that checks might bring, but we must keep also from across the north of England as additional people and communities as safe as possible, so we must resources were brought to bear on these terrible events. have a balanced approach. I want to place on the record our thanks to the Sellafield We await the outcome of the peer review, and I police, who have been referred to previously, who played welcome the Government’s commitment to a debate in an important role. Parliament. However, I ask, as have many contributors 121WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 122WH to the debate, that the Government do not close the An issue that came through strongly is the sense of door to a wider, independent debate and a review of the community among the people of Cumbria. It was made events in west Cumbria and of gun laws generally. clear in many speeches, including the measured contribution The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South from the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Pembrokeshire referred to balance and proportionality, Woodcock), who may not have been in the House long, which is subjective in this context, so from time to time but has shown clearly how he seeks to represent his we need learned and wise but, most importantly, constituents. My hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland independent voices to bring their views to bear. and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) also referred to the strength I want to hear what the Minister has to say, so I shall of the community and emphasised its sense of purpose. finish by saying that in the months and years ahead, the The hon. Member for Copeland talked strongly about people and communities affected will want to get on solemnity, dignity and purpose, and his comments will with their lives—that is probably happening already—and resonate clearly. as far as possible not to be constantly reminded of what I pay tribute to the maiden speech by my hon. Friend happened on 2 June. I represent an urban constituency the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart). where there was a gun rampage 20 years ago, albeit with It was considered and eloquent, but also passionate. I fewer deaths than in Cumbria. Constituents ask me got a sense of my hon. Friend’s constituency and of his why, when events such as that in Cumbria occur and on priorities as a Member of this House, and that is what their anniversary, the press continue to return to the new Members of Parliament seek to give in their maiden tragedy that affected their community. The answer, I am speeches. He made his extremely well, and I well understand sorry to say, is that while we have lazy and easy journalism, why he chose this debate in which to make his first we cannot give guarantees that that will not happen, contribution to the House. In doing so, and in his whatever we feel about it. It is incumbent on us, in actions as an MP, he demonstrated why he will be a fine Government and in Parliament, to stand by those champion for his constituents and those whom he serves. communities, not just now, but in the years ahead. The way he conducted himself during his maiden speech demonstrated the values that he spoke about. 3.43 pm I have been particularly struck by the perception of many people that it is difficult to have in place proportionate The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the controls to deal with those rare occasions when, for no Home Department (James Brokenshire): At around this apparent reason, someone suddenly embarks on a series time three weeks ago, we were all feeling a real sense of of horrific killings. There has been ready recognition, shock as the full horror of events in Cumbria became both this afternoon and earlier, that a knee-jerk response apparent. The last funerals took place on Friday, and I is unlikely to provide a lasting solution, or the one that join other hon. Members this afternoon in expressing people seek, and that has been reflected in the contributions condolences to the families and friends of all those who this afternoon. were killed or injured. Our thoughts are also with all those who were caught up in some other way in the Alongside that, however, there is a strong wish to tragic events. We should remember in particular the ensure that we do all we can to learn lessons about both police and emergency services, who had to deal with how we respond to future incidents and what we might the immediate consequences of the shootings, and who reasonably do to prevent them, which is what we all did so with professionalism. fervently wish to do. That approach has been characterised today, and the debate has raised much for us to reflect I also want to join the many others who have praised on. Above all, we should listen carefully to what the the resilience of the people of Cumbria, who, with true local communities are saying. The Minister of State, community spirit, have pulled together in their efforts Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Member for Arundel to come to terms with this and other recent tragedies. and South Downs (Nick Herbert), who has responsibility They are surely an example to all of us. for policing and criminal justice, will return to Cumbria I thank the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) in the near future to talk to local groups about what for providing this opportunity to debate the lessons that happened, and to hear more about any concerns that might be learned from the tragic shootings in his persist. constituency on 2 June, and particularly for the sensitive, Cumbria police are busy conducting a huge, complex considered, measured and moving way in which he investigation involving 30 crime scenes, 12 deceased opened the debate. I would like to add my tribute to victims, one offender and 11 seriously injured victims. those paid by many others, both this afternoon and in Each incident requires a major investigation of its own— recent weeks, for the way in which he dealt with the Cumbria is running more than 20 at same time. In the immediate aftermath of that shocking tragedy, and the initial phase of the investigation, 100 detectives were way in which he has conducted himself since then. working on the case and they searched 225 sq km of the I fully recognise the depth and range of feeling on the country from land and air. Witnesses are still coming matter and the need for a broad debate. We have started forward and the investigation will take many months to that process today. A range of issues were touched on complete. I recognise the desire for answers and the and, as the hon. Gentleman rightly said, many fall points made by the right hon. Member for Leicester outside my specific ministerial responsibility, but I know East (Keith Vaz), who I understand was not able to stay that my ministerial colleagues outside this Chamber for the wind-ups—I pass my congratulations to him on will read the debate and reflect on the comments that he being elected Chair of the Select Committee on Home and others have made this afternoon, particularly about Affairs—but it is important that the investigation takes West Cumberland hospital and its funding. I will draw its proper course. The Association of Chief Police Officers them to the attention of my colleagues in the Department peer reviews—I will talk more about them in due course— of Health. are anticipated to report by this autumn. 123WH Cumbrian Shootings23 JUNE 2010 Cumbrian Shootings 124WH

[James Brokenshire] police service has already put in place systems to ensure that any tactics developed to deal with counter-terrorism We all recognise what a huge amount of work the are not developed in isolation, but are picked up by investigation is for Cumbria police, but I have spoken to authorised firearms officers across the country. The chief constable Craig Mackey and he has assured me peer reviews are being led by senior police officers who that the force has the necessary resources and expertise take the professional lead in their areas of expertise and to cope with the task. However, if it becomes necessary, who are therefore uniquely placed to identify the issues. the Government will support any bid from Cumbria We expect the findings of both reviews to be published police for a special grant to help meet exceptional costs in the autumn. on the force budget. Cumbria police have already received On firearms licensing, the shootings in Cumbria bring some specialist support from neighbouring forces, including home all too starkly just how dangerous firearms can be police helicopters and scenes of crime officers. I would in the wrong hands, and it is inevitable that questions like to take this opportunity to formally thank Dumfries will be asked about the UK’s firearms licensing laws. It and Galloway, Lancashire and the civil nuclear constabulary is widely acknowledged that we already have some of for all the help that they have provided so far—a point tightest legislative controls in the world when it comes made by the hon. Member for Workington (Tony to civilian access to, and possession and use of, firearms. Cunningham). Local forces stand ready to help should Any firearms held must be accompanied by a certificate further assistance be required as the investigation progresses. that is issued following extensive checks by local police, who must satisfy themselves that an applicant is fit to be Tony Cunningham: May I ask for an assurance that entrusted with a firearm and will not present a danger there will be proper collaboration between the two to public safety. Local police must be satisfied that an relevant Departments? Obviously the police are the applicant has a legitimate reason for wanting a firearm—for responsibility of the Home Office, but the civil nuclear example, target shooting or deerstalking. The police constabulary is the responsibility of the Department of will visit applicants at home to interview them about Energy and Climate Change. I would like to make sure their application and to check security. They can seek a that the connection is there and that, when the inquiry medical report from the applicant’s GP if they have takes place, there will be collaboration. concerns about any medical condition. On that point, I would like to come on to an issue James Brokenshire: Certainly there is a wider point of raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen discussion on policing and cross-border assistance, and West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart). Applicants the hon. Gentleman has made an important point about for firearms certificates must give details of their GP, the need for any consideration of the issues to take into from whom the police can seek a medical report. That is account other police forces. He has rightly highlighted not limited by time, and the police can approach the GP the case of the civil nuclear constabulary, and other at any time during the life of a certificate. It is also open forces, such as the British transport police, sit within the to a GP to approach the police at any time to pass on Department for Transport. When considering policing information or possible concerns. However, ACPO is issues, we need to factor in services that might sit within working with medical associations to ensure that any other Departments, too. He makes his point very effectively. medical concerns are not missed. It is discussing the The hon. Member for Copeland has made a significant possibility of placing a marker on NHS patient records, contribution to the learning process by securing and so that a GP will know whether a patient has access to leading the debate today. There are, as we know, other firearms and can notify the police of any concerns reviews in hand that will add to our knowledge. I refer about the suitability of that. We are following this to the peer reviews that ACPO has set up at the request process closely and we will feed the outcomes into of the chief constable of Cumbria, Craig Mackey. subsequent work on gun controls as required. Those reviews will cover firearms licensing procedures, It is only right that we should reflect on whether more the tactical and strategic police firearms response, and might be done in that context to ensure public safety. In any aspect of the incident that may require further doing so, we have to look carefully at the balance national or local guidance. between the maintenance of public safety and the legitimate The ACPO lead on firearms licensing, Assistant Chief expectations of the vast majority of firearm owners Constable Adrian Whiting, will review the file and the who use their guns safely and responsibly, and who procedures adopted in relation to the award of a firearms totally condemn those who misuse them. The control of licence and shotgun certificate to Mr Bird. He will also firearms is a complex area that requires careful consider whether there are any significant gaps or risks consideration, a point rightly made by the hon. Member in the licensing process. The question of the armed for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell). I thank him for his kind police response and the resources that were available for comments and assure him that we will consider all the deployment to the scene will be addressed by the ACPO issues extremely carefully. As he pointed out, we plan to lead on the police use of firearms, Assistant Chief hold a full debate on the issue of firearms before the Constable Simon Chesterman. summer recess, which will provide an opportunity to air Following the conclusion of the first two reviews, in greater depth some of the issues raised today about there will be an examination of firearms tactics and the existing controls. ACPO manual to see whether any accumulated learning As I said at the outset, this is the start of a process, should lead to changes. I should confirm at this point and the debate that I just mentioned will provide an that the firearms response review will cover the issues opportunity for people who wish to make more detailed previously raised by the shadow Home Secretary about comments about firearms legislation to do so. Even the possible need to absorb lessons from counter-terrorism then, we should not draw conclusions precipitately. It is policing. In picking up the lessons from Stockwell, the important to wait until we have the results of the police 125WH Cumbrian Shootings 23 JUNE 2010 126WH investigation and the peer reviews before we decide Tolls (Severn Bridges) whether we need to take specific further action, either by issuing further guidance, introducing new procedures or, potentially, changing the law. I reassure the hon. 4pm Member for Barrow and Furness that we go into this Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): I am grateful process with an open mind. for the opportunity early in the new Parliament to raise We will also consider at that stage whether there is the long-standing issue of the tolls on the Severn bridges need for any further inquiry. The Government are and their impact on my constituents and businesses committed to supporting the affected communities in generally in south Wales. I welcome the Minister to his this terrible situation, and we want to find out from new role. I had a very constructive relationship in the them how we can best help them. The Department for last Parliament with my right hon. Friend the Member Communities and Local Government has already asked for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), who was then the Minister of its emergencies management team, which offers support State in the Department for Transport. I look forward to local authorities that have suffered disasters and to continuing such a relationship with this Minister. I emergencies, to contact the local authorities involved to am very grateful for the cross-party interest in the issue, see what support they require and what assistance they which is shown by the turnout at this debate, despite the may need. The local authorities were confident that football. I apologise for the fact that the debate is taking they had the resources available to cope, and that no place during the match. It was looking encouraging further assistance was required. before I came into the Chamber, but I apologise to I understand that the Government office for the those hon. Members who are missing it. north-west has contacted Cumbria county council and The Severn bridge tolls are expensive, inconvenient Copeland district council to offer assistance. Again, no and inflexible; we know we are in trouble when we are further assistance has been requested at this point in the butt of jokes on “Gavin and Stacey”. In one famous time. We are confident that the local authorities will episode, Smithy nearly missed the birth of his child make immediate contact with the Government office because he was 10p short when crossing the Severn for the north-west should any further assistance be bridges. People cannot pay by credit card, debit card or required at a later date. The Government office stands online. They cannot travel off peak and there are no ready to broker mutual aid support with the voluntary concessions for those who live locally. However, the sector, should that be necessary. tolls continue to rise year on year, even though the Copeland and Cumbria councils are working to service is outdated. understand the needs of the families and communities affected, and have put in place arrangements to provide Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I congratulate counselling and personal support. In addition, my hon. the hon. Lady on securing the debate. She mentioned Friend the Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner the cross-party nature of the issue. I am sure that I can (Mr Hurd), the Minister with responsibility for Civil agree with what I anticipate she is going to say. She will Society, will be visiting Cumbria tomorrow to meet the agree that the issue does not affect just her constituents local authorities and the council for voluntary service to and the M4 corridor; some geographic spread from see what extra support or assistance they need. west Wales is involved as well, reinforcing the point that In conclusion, this is the start of considering the this is an all-Wales issue, affecting, particularly at this issues that we have debated this afternoon. We have time of year, the tourism sector and, more generally, the heard much about the spirit of the people of Cumbria business sector. It does not affect just south Wales, but and how they have been supporting each other. Such the whole of Wales. It is a totemic issue affecting the community spirit is truly priceless. For our part, we whole Welsh economy. shall continue to liaise with the Cumbria constabulary to follow up any areas that require further or wider Jessica Morden: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his consultation. The learning from the reviews, which is intervention and agree that this is an issue for the whole expected in the autumn, will be shared with the public, of Wales. In particular, first-time visitors to Wales are the wider police service and, of course, the House. an example of that. The issue does have that impact. I receive a bulging postbag on the issue from constituents and businesses and I want to highlight some of the points that they raise with me. First, will the Minister examine the cost of the tolls? Every year on 1 January, the tolls go up in accordance with the Severn Bridges Act 1992. Under the agreement with Severn River Crossing plc, the company is permitted to collect tolls from both bridges for a concessions period until the project’s target real revenue level is reached or the time limit is up. I understand that at that point, the bridges revert to the Secretary of State’s control. We are going through tough economic times. Commuters’ hours are being cut and there are pay freezes and high petrol prices, yet the tolls still go up. Severn bridge tolls are among the most expensive in the UK for cars, costing £5.50. My first request to the Minister is that he should examine the issue of toll rises, step in and 127WH Tolls (Severn Bridges)23 JUNE 2010 Tolls (Severn Bridges) 128WH

[Jessica Morden] business. Owens, which also employs many people in my constituency, is really struggling. There is a very recommend a freeze in this year’s tolls, particularly in fragile situation economically now. Does my hon. Friend the light of yesterday’s VAT rise. While he is at it, will he agree that we need to have every measure in place to also examine whether we could implement a reduction improve the opportunities for businesses to relocate to in tolls for those who live locally? That could be worked places such as west Wales, where we know that we need out by postcode area, for example. Such a scheme has to do as much as we can to help the private sector to been introduced on the Dartford crossing. It is easier to grow? do on the Humber and the Dartford crossing as there is no concessionaire, but why can we not have a look at Jessica Morden: I thank my hon. Friend for her doing it in Wales? intervention. I agree with her and hope that the Minister The second issue is the payment method for tolls. will pick up her point in his closing remarks. The Currently, people can pay to go over the bridges only by industry is already struggling, with more than 3,000 cash, including euros, or by cheque. Those who are heavy goods vehicle drivers claiming jobseeker’s allowance unfortunate enough to approach the bridge thinking in Wales alone. that they can pay by such new-fangled methods as The previous Government froze the tolls on the Humber credit and debit cards are frustrated. Many constituents crossing after a study of the impact on residents and have regaled me with stories of getting to the tolls, not businesses. There has been no study of the Severn that I having the right money, being escorted over the bridge am aware of, so please could the Department for Transport and then being told to go back over the bridge and to go work with the Welsh Assembly Government to initiate to Gordano services, which is a round trip of about one? 20 miles. That is hardly a welcome to Wales for first-time visitors and it is not much fun for the long-suffering staff collecting the tolls, who have to put up with Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): The hon. frustrated motorists. Lady is being very generous about interventions. As someone who is himself returning to the House, I Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): My hon. Friend may congratulate her not only on raising this issue, but on not recall that I was a member of the 1992 Bill Committee continuing the wonderful record of her predecessor, that dealt with this issue. That was a very long time ago. who raised many of these issues, as the right hon. Is it not right that after 18 years, the whole business of Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) will recall. the Severn bridge and its tolls should be brought up to In relation to the charge, my understanding is that date? the actual real revenue is not likely to be reached until Jessica Morden: I thank my right hon. Friend for his 2016. Is not the difficulty about abolishing the tolls the intervention. I agree with him. Progress was made on fact that the bridge was in essence built by a commercial the method of payment of tolls by the previous Minister company at no cost to the Government and was to be and it would be helpful if this Minister could confirm funded from the tolls? In that context, my constituents exactly when debit and credit card payments will begin look to the ease of crossing the bridge, rather than and that the card-handling charge will not be passed on having any expectation that in these times the tolls are to the traveller. I would not expect Tesco to charge me likely to be either frozen or abolished. more for paying by card, and I do not see why the bridges should be any different. Jessica Morden: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his That brings me to the impact of the tolls on business intervention, but my constituents feel very strongly that in south Wales. The Severn crossing tolls, which are felt the year-on-year increase in the tolls is very unfair on by many people to be a tax on entering Wales, are the them locally. I promise that I will come to the concession highest in the UK for all but the largest vehicles. Light later. I am not claiming that we should scrap all the tolls goods vehicles pay £10.90, compared with £2.00 for the when the concession expires. Dartford crossing and £4.90 on the Humber. The Skye More than 31,000—31,437—heavy goods vehicles and Forth bridges are free. Heavy goods vehicles must use the bridge each week. That is 4,491 a day. There are pay £16.30, but on the Humber the charge is £10.90 or clear patterns of movement on the crossing, with most £14.60, depending on size. The Dartford crossing charges vehicles travelling between peak times. It is clear to me just £3.70 per heavy goods vehicle, and the Forth and that a more flexible pricing structure, with off-peak Skye bridges are free. travel for business, would offer incentives for people to An example in my constituency of the burden of the travel at certain times of the day or night. That would tolls is given by Owens Road Services, a long-standing reduce congestion, save on emissions and save companies Welsh company with a base in Newport that represents money at the same time. I ask the Minister also to 1% of the total heavy goods vehicle traffic on the investigate that issue. crossing. Owens pays £16,000 a month by standing order account and over £200,000 a year. The annual toll Finally, let us look to the future. According to the increases just come off the company’s bottom line; they Highways Agency study of 2008, the current Severn are not passed on to customers because contracts have crossings are being maintained at a constant level and to be renegotiated and times are hard. The crossing require an annual maintenance expenditure of about represents a charge on the Welsh logistics industry that 20% of the annual income generated from the tolls. In a is not paid by competitors in England. few years, when the bridges are expected to be turned over to the Highways Agency—it would be helpful if Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. the Minister confirmed the exact thinking at the moment Friend on securing the debate. The figures that she has on what that date might be—the agency will receive the cited illustrate clearly what a burden the tolls are on revenue without the burden of debt. 129WH Tolls (Severn Bridges)23 JUNE 2010 Tolls (Severn Bridges) 130WH

Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) 1990 they announced the selection of the bid led by (PC): I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this very John Laing Ltd with GTM-Entrepose to design, build important debate. Does she agree that it is imperative and finance the second crossing. That consortium was that the United Kingdom Government should ensure also to take over the maintenance and operation of the that the public purse is not left with liabilities for existing Severn bridge. long-term repairs after the bridges are returned to public In October of that year, the concession agreement ownership? was formally signed between the Government and Severn River Crossing plc, and in February 1992 the Severn Jessica Morden: I agree very much with the hon. Bridges Bill received Royal Assent. The concession Gentleman’s point. I know that his party has raised it agreement was enshrined in an Act of Parliament and before. commenced in April 1992. Severn River Crossing plc With the Severn crossing due to come back to public then took over both the operation and maintenance of ownership in, say, 2016-17—depending on what the the present bridge and the construction of the new Minister says—the time is right to plan for a smooth bridge. The finance arranged by the company covers the transition, with tolls being reduced to a maintenance-only cost of construction for the new bridge and pays for the charge. I would appreciate it if the Minister considered outstanding debt on the present bridge. the matter. I am really grateful to have had the opportunity Construction of the new bridge started in September of this debate and for the interest shown in it by other 1992 and the new crossing was opened on 5 June 1996 hon. Members. by the Prince of Wales, almost 30 years after the opening To sum up, I should be grateful if the Minister of the first bridge. The concession period is limited to a worked with the Welsh Assembly Government to initiate maximum of 30 years. The actual end date will be an economic impact study, stepped in and froze the tolls achieved when the concessionaire has collected a fix this year, and looked at things such as off-peak travel sum of money from tolls, which is £995,830,000 at 1989 for business and concessions for local residents so that prices; that is £1.8 billion at today’s prices. As part of we could finally reach a conclusion on the method of the concession agreement, Severn River Crossing plc is payment. As I said, at the start of the new Parliament authorised to collect tolls to meet its financial obligations. the time is right, as we approach the end of the concession, It is worth stressing that that is the company’s only to look at what the charges will be after it ends. I am source of income. grateful to have had the opportunity to introduce the debate, and I look forward to the Minister’s response. Let me make it clear why tolls are collected at the crossings. Tolls are in place to repay the construction and financing costs of the second Severn crossing, the 4.11 pm remaining debt from the first existing crossing from 1992 and to maintain and operate both crossings. I have The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport seen no evidence to suggest that the tolls impact on the (Norman Baker): I wish first to congratulate the hon. economic viability of Wales, although I note the concerns Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) on securing of hon. Members about the impact of the tolls in their the debate. I thank her very much for her kind welcome constituencies. Clearly, there is a cost to the crossing, to me in my new post. Our commitment to the issue is which is borne by business and those who pay the tolls, not in doubt, and I hope that the fact that it is taking but that has to be weighed against the benefits that the place during another event outside the House demonstrates crossings provide in terms of more direct access into to her constituents her dedication to the issue—assuming, Wales, allowing users quicker access to markets than of course, that they will support England. would otherwise be the case. However, I am happy to Before I start to discuss the tolls on the Severn receive and to look at evidence from the Welsh Assembly, crossings, I wish to make the point that, since 1945, it hon. Members or others. That is an open invitation to has been the policy of successive Governments that supply such information to me. crossings on estuaries should be paid for by the user rather than by the taxpayer. Successive Governments have taken the view that tolls on all such crossings are Nia Griffith: Does the Minister agree that in a situation justified because the user benefits from the exceptional where tolls are not the norm on other roads, it makes a savings in time and money that those expensive facilities firm such as Owens feel at a distinct disadvantage when make possible. It is important to make such a point at it is competing with firms whose distances from the this stage. It is one that should not be forgotten, not main markets and from the channel ports may be least of all with the present financial difficulties that the similar, but who do not have to make their route via a Government and country face. tollbridge, and that there is therefore a feeling of economic inequality in that instance? In specific relation to the Severn crossings, it might be helpful if I give a brief outline of their history, some of which is relevant to the issues that have been raised. The Norman Baker: I do understand that. I mentioned first Severn bridge was opened by the Queen in September earlier that it is standard practice for estuary crossings 1966, providing a direct link from the M4 motorway to have tolls, no matter where they are. They limit the into Wales, with a toll in place for use of the bridge to journey time and deal with—or compensate for—the pay for the cost of construction. The original bridge geography of the area. While I understand that there is continually operated at significantly above its designed a cost involved that would not be there if a crossing traffic capacity, so the then Government said in 1986 were not necessary, the alternative to a toll crossing that a second bridge would be constructed. In July 1988 would be a much longer diversionary route. That is a they announced that the private sector would be given matter of geography; I am not downplaying the concerns an opportunity to participate in the scheme and in April that hon. Members and others have about the impact. 131WH Tolls (Severn Bridges)23 JUNE 2010 Tolls (Severn Bridges) 132WH

[Norman Baker] the concession to accommodate the new 20% VAT rate with Severn River Crossing plc. We do not expect the As I said, I welcome any further information that they VAT increase to be passed on through an increase in the want to give me on that matter, and I will personally tolls, but the concessionaire expects to receive a certain look at it. amount of money, and the way in which that can be accommodated without increasing tolls is a matter for Jessica Morden: Would the Minister commit to doing negotiation. an economic impact study on south Wales with the I know that the hon. Member for Newport East has Welsh Assembly Government? an interest in local discount schemes, to which she referred in her opening remarks. Any discounts or Norman Baker: I do not want to commit to that here, exemptions are a matter for the concessionaire to decide, but I will happily receive information that is supplied to provided that they comply with existing legislation. me, and I will bear in mind that request as and when it Where that is not the case, such schemes cannot be comes in. introduced without changes to primary legislation and The Severn Bridges Act 1992 seeks to apply a clear the concession agreement. They would have a financial structure to the tolls to give the concessionaire confidence impact on the concession and the period required for that it will be able to meet its liabilities and manage the repayment, which would impact all road users. Discounts risks that it accepted through the concession agreement. of around 20% for regular and frequent users are offered The toll levels were set for three categories of vehicles at by way of a season TAG, whereas blue badge holders the time of tender and are embodied in the Act. The and the emergency services are exempt. Act sets out the tolling arrangements and the basis for I now turn to the matter of card payments, which I yearly increases in the toll rates. Toll rates are fixed in know the hon. Lady pursued before the election and, real terms. The new rates are introduced on 1 January with some justification, can claim to have had some each year and are increased in line with the retail price success on in her campaign. In March this year, an index using a formula, and rounded to the nearest 10p. amendment was made to the Severn Bridges Regulations I want to stress an important point: the Secretary of 1996 to allow card payments at the tollbooths. She will State does not have the authority to set the annual tolls recognise that there are associated costs with the below the level of RPI increase without the concessionaire’s introduction of card payments, mainly bank transaction agreement. The concessionaire would not be able to charges, which are estimated to be between £7 million agree to anything that would affect their net revenue and £10 million to the end of the concession, or without compensation and agreement from their approximately £1 million per year depending on usage. shareholders and lenders, which would result, if such an Implementation is expected to cost around £1.2 million, agreement were forthcoming, in a cost to the taxpayer. and the way in which the additional costs will be funded Tolls are charged in a westbound direction only from has yet to be agreed. Discussions with the concessionaire England into Wales. The current toll prices are: £5.50 to resolve the financial issues regarding the introduction for cars, £10.90 for vans and £16.40 for vehicles over of credit card payments are ongoing, but work to 3.5 tonnes. I do understand hon. Members’ concerns amend the tolling software to allow for the processing that those are higher than apply in other crossings. of credit and debit cards has started. One of the drivers—no pun intended—that the hon. Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): The Minister made Lady will be aware of is the Ryder cup, one of the reference to the fact that it is an estuarial crossing, but it highest profile sporting events in the world. It is due to is unique in the United Kingdom because it goes into a be held in Newport between 27 September and 3 October part of our country that now has a devolved Government. this year, with about 50,000 visitors a day, the majority When I served as Secretary of State, some of my of whom will come from overseas and will not be flush conversations with the then First Minister were about with money in their pockets to pay the tolls. We want to how we deal with a situation where tolls are charged to make progress on the matter, and I hope to have it come into Wales but not to go out. The impact on the resolved before the Ryder cup begins. My officials assure Welsh economy is very severe, particularly in times such me that that will be the case, and I will look into the as this. The Minister ought to think a little more about matter to ensure that that is so. the importance of having a dialogue with his counterpart An hon. Member also raised the issue of motorists in Cardiff, because of the importance of this to the being sent back after driving some way and finding that Welsh economy in these difficult times. they could not pay by card. I understand that signs are in place close to the bridge, before the last junction, Norman Baker: I am very happy to have dialogue advising motorists of the current arrangements, which with my counterpart or anyone else in the Welsh Assembly is that they can pay only in cash. However, if they arrive if they wish to do so. The issue has just been raised for at the tolls, I have been assured that they do not the first time with the new Government—this is the first necessarily have to make a U-turn; they can be issued Adjournment debate on it. I am perfectly open to with an invoice with an added administration fee of £5. suggestions of dialogue with people from Wales or The problem with turning motorists back has been elsewhere on issues for which my Department is responsible. recognised, and that is being dealt with in the way I I want to talk about VAT, which was raised by the described as an interim measure. If that was new hon. Member for Newport East. When VAT was first information to Members present, I hope that that was applied to the crossings in 2003, following a European helpful. Court ruling, there was no increase in the toll to the Regarding maintenance, the concessionaire is required motorist. Following the Chancellor’s statement yesterday, to maintain both Severn crossings in accordance with the the Highways Agency will discuss adjustments within concession agreement. A rigorous schedule of inspections 133WH Tolls (Severn Bridges)23 JUNE 2010 Tolls (Severn Bridges) 134WH is carried out and regular review meetings are held State. However, in order to ensure that tolls do not rise between the concessionaire and the Highways Agency. further, there are additional costs that have to be absorbed, A programme of cable inspections on the first Severn both through the VAT increase and the work to ensure bridge began in April 2006 after corrosion was found in that credit cards can be accepted. I am giving the best the suspension cables of bridges of a similar age and estimate—it might slip slightly in the light of those two construction in other parts of the world. Unfortunately, matters, but that is not certain at this stage. significant levels of corrosion were found and a programme of works to tackle the corrosion followed. A full Jonathan Edwards: Will the Minister indicate whether dehumidification system has been installed to address the UK Government are considering offering joint the corrosion. The system, which pumps dry air into the ownership of the bridges after handover to the Welsh cables to reduce humidity, has been operational since Government? December 2008. Reports show that humidity levels within the main cable are below the target level of Norman Baker: That matter has not been considered 40% relative humidity. In addition, an acoustic monitoring in my short time in office. The hon. Gentleman has system has been installed to track the rate and location raised an issue that I am sure is important to people in of any further deterioration. A second round of inspections Wales and I will ensure that he receives a reply. is currently under way to gain a detailed understanding Jonathan Evans: The Minister shared with us a figure of the level of corrosion and to verify the success of the of £995 million. As I understand it, when we last heard dehumidification process so far. That work is due for from the Department, the assessment of how much completion later this year. mileage has been made towards that figure was about The corrosion of the main cables is a defect that £682 million. Is the Minister able to update us on the existed before the letting of the concession and current take, or if not, will he share it later? unfortunately—from my point of view—is not covered by the concession agreement. Costs associated with this Norman Baker: I do not have that precise figure at my work will therefore be met by the Government. The fingertips, but if comes to me in the next couple of programme of mitigation and inspection work carried minutes I will tell Members. If it is not possible to do so out so far has cost the Government £15 million, with before half-past 4, I undertake that all Members present the second round of inspections costing us a further will get a written response. £4 million. When the Secretary of State takes over the bridges at Reports in the local media—and a letter from a the end of the concession, the Government are authorised Member of the National Assembly for Wales—suggest to continue tolling for a further five years following the that the concessionaire will hand back the crossings in a handover of the crossings, to enable them to cover their state of disrepair. The suggestion was made earlier that, own costs incurred, such as the £19 million that I once the concession ends, the taxpayer will have to foot mentioned in respect of the maintenance of the cables. the bill. Let me make it clear, the concessionaire is No decisions have been made regarding the operation bound by the legal terms of the concession, which it of the crossings once the concession ends, and therefore signed, to maintain the crossings to an acceptable standard. we are open to suggestions as to what might be the When the concession ends, the concessionaire is required appropriate position at that stage. to carry out any necessary maintenance and repair In answer to the question about turnover at July 1989 works on the crossings prior to handover. That is a prices, the present figure is about £648 million, against legally binding commitment and is what I expect them the final total of £995 million. to do. In conclusion, I thank not only the hon. Member for Newport East but Members of all parties who contributed Jessica Morden: Does the Minister have an indication to the debate. I and the Department recognise that this of the year in which the concession will end? is an important issue for Welsh Members in particular. We are bound by the 1992 Act and the agreements Norman Baker: I am coming to that. The concession entered into at that stage. Within that relatively tight agreement sets out the requirements for transfer of the constraint, I am willing to do what I can to address crossings to the Secretary of State at the end of the issues that Members have raised and I hope the House concession period. The concession is currently predicted has found that helpful. to end in the first half of 2017, when the sum defined in the 1992 Act will have been collected through tolling. 4.28 pm The bridges will then be returned to the Secretary of Sitting suspended. 135WH 23 JUNE 2010 Accident and Emergency 136WH (Westmorland General Hospital) Accident and Emergency (Westmorland South Lakeland, the lakes, the dales, the northern part General Hospital) of the Lune valley and the southern part of the Eden district. The resident catchment population for the Westmorland 4.30 pm general hospital is 123,973 individuals, rising to 157,513 when one factors in resident visitors. For the Royal Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): It is a Lancaster infirmary, the resident catchment area is pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the second 143,500, rising to 161,886 when factoring in resident time in an hour, Mr Benton. I wish to express my visitors. For the Furness general hospital catchment gratitude for the opportunity to make the case for my area at Barrow, there are 71,800 residents—78,093 when local hospital. factoring in resident visitors. The catchment populations The Westmorland general hospital in Kendal sits of Lancaster and Westmorland are roughly identical, almost exactly at the geographical centre of the area with the catchment area of Barrow less than half their covered by the University Hospitals of Morecambe Bay size. An additional factor, of course, is the vast number NHS Trust. It is one of three hospitals serving the area, of non-resident visitors in the Westmorland general along with the Royal Lancaster infirmary and the Furness hospital catchment area visiting the lakes and the dales, general hospital at Barrow. Westmorland general hospital who are as likely as anyone else to fall ill and need serves, in Cumbria: the Lake district, the western part emergency treatment. That means that, for most of the of the Yorkshire dales, South Lakeland district and the year, there will be significantly greater numbers of people southern part of the Eden district. In north Lancashire, in the Westmorland catchment area than in that of it serves large swathes of the Lune valley. either of the other hospitals in the trust area, yet For all those areas, Westmorland general is the closest Westmorland general is the only one without medical and most accessible hospital. Indeed, it was built in emergency facilities. 1992 expressly to serve those communities as a district The area served by Westmorland general is much general hospital. At that time, it provided full accident more rural and sparsely populated than the rest of the and emergency services and acute provision. Since 1992, trust area. Barrow has 10.2 people per hectare, Lancaster the population of Westmorland general hospital’s catchment 2.81, and Westmorland just 0.6. Many parts of my area has grown significantly in comparison to the constituency already face vast distances and a significant populations of the other hospitals at Lancaster and trek to get to Westmorland general hospital, but to now Barrow. However, the past 18 years have seen the steady force people to go all the way to Lancaster or Barrow is removal of key services from Westmorland general, a significant threat to patient safety. culminating in the loss of medical emergency services in August 2008. If one had a heart attack in Hawkshead, it might take an ambulance half an hour to arrive. The fastest time it Since 2008, anyone suffering a suspected cardiovascular would then take to get to Lancaster hospital would be emergency, a heart attack or a stroke in the Westmorland an hour, but it would be more likely to take 90 minutes. general catchment area has been taken by ambulance to The average patient suffering a heart attack would Lancaster or Barrow instead. The majority of local therefore arrive at Lancaster’s coronary care unit some health professionals opposed that decision throughout two hours after they had dialled 999—if they survived. the consultation process in 2006, as did the overwhelming It would take 37 minutes to get to Kendal, rising to 45 if majority of the local population. I presented a petition the traffic was sticky. The same, give or take a minute or to this place, with 27,000 signatures opposing the proposals. two, is true for people who fall ill in Chapel Stile, There were 7,000 responses to the formal consultation, Elterwater, Grasmere or Coniston. It takes 46 minutes almost all of which opposed the proposal. Some 6,000 at best—it is more likely to take an hour and a quarter—to people joined a march in opposition to the cuts and get from Ambleside to Lancaster, but less than 20 minutes 4,000 of us joined a human chain around the hospital to to get to Kendal. protest. I am proud to have been involved in all of those actions, as they were a key mark of the strength and We all know about the golden hour following a heart vitality of our communities and of the clear awareness attack, during which a patient must be stabilised. After of the immense danger that the proposals pose to tens the hour is up, the chances of a patient dying or of thousands of residents and visitors. The campaign suffering permanent damage rocket. Anecdotally, I know went on for almost three years, but in August 2008 the of a great number of deaths that occurred as a consequence medical emergency provision closed. of the decision to close down emergency medical services at Westmorland general hospital. I know, from talking Trust managers—I would say disingenuously—attempted to ambulance service staff, that patients have died in the to convince the previous Labour Administration that back of ambulances en route to Barrow or Lancaster, the opposition to the proposals was simply a case of an but that they would have survived had they been allowed emotional and uninformed public and MP against an to be taken to Kendal. Such deaths do not show up in informed and clinically astute medical community. I statistics, because no one officially dies in an ambulance— can assure the Minister that that is absolutely not the they are only designated dead on arrival. I encourage case—it is, indeed, nonsense. As I have already said, the Minister to dig as deep as she is able to uncover hard the majority of local medical opinion was opposed to evidence of that through coroners’ reports and other the closure. There were some doctors who supported similar material. the closure of emergency services, but there were barely any of those who were not also some sort of trust All acute medical crises have better outcomes the manager, and therefore sticking to the party line. I am sooner they are treated by a full medical team, a doctor seeking the Minister’s help to ensure that safe emergency and specialist nurses situated in a fully equipped provision is reinstated for residents and visitors to resuscitation room. It is criminal to reconfigure acute 137WH Accident and Emergency 23 JUNE 2010 Accident and Emergency 138WH (Westmorland General Hospital) (Westmorland General Hospital) services to lengthen the time that dangerously ill people To illustrate the situation, I will use one example. In have to wait before receiving life-saving treatment, especially December I went on shift with one of Kendal’s ambulance given that Westmorland general hospital had an excellent crews. We responded to a 999 call from a man in his late record of managing the initial stages of heart attacks 80s who had presented with chest pains. He lived roughly and other life-threatening acute cardiac emergencies. a mile from the Westmorland general hospital in Kendal, I invite the Minister to look at the official statistics, which 16 months previously would have been able to which show clearly that timings at Westmorland general receive him and treat him. Instead, we had to drive this for patients receiving vital treatment were significantly patient past the Westmorland general hospital on the and consistently better than at Lancaster or Barrow. A65 and take him down the M6 to Lancaster. The Outcomes were also excellent. patient was clearly afraid and the paramedics were clearly appalled at having to take a potentially dangerously It is not the case that Kendal operated at a lower level ill person so much further to receive treatment. His frail or standard than the other two hospitals. Cutting-edge wife was left behind in Kendal, with no prospect of coronary care units are equipped to provide angioplasty being able to visit her husband in the coming days, as services, but the nearest such unit to Morecambe bay is she would have been able to do at the nearby Westmorland in Blackpool, which is well outside the trust area. It is general hospital. Even with blue lights flashing and important to spell out that neither Lancaster nor Barrow sirens blaring, it still took us 45 minutes to reach provide that function. Indeed, although the expertise Lancaster’s A and E department. The nature of Lancaster’s and the level and standard of service provided by the traffic system means that, even when other road users coronary care units at Lancaster and Barrow are excellent, pull over in unison to allow an ambulance to pass, it is they are no more advanced and no better in terms of barely possible to go above more than 15 or 20 mph as a outcomes, patient experience, safety or survival rates driver attempts to negotiate the traffic. than those that were available at Westmorland general hospital in Kendal just 22 months ago. We stayed with the patient for more than an hour until he was safely admitted and then we left to return Expert opinion suggests that, where it is appropriate, to the ambulance station in Kendal. From getting the a patient should be thrombolysed by a trained paramedic 999 call to returning to the base and being once again at the scene before being transported to the nearest available for the next emergency call, it had taken specialist centre. In order to allay my fears and those of almost three hours. If we had been allowed to take the my constituents, the hospitals trust negotiated with the patient to Kendal, we could have been back at the base, North West Ambulance Service to provide an additional out and ready to help the next patient in just half an ambulance service for South Lakeland and a number of hour. additional paramedics to compensate for the closure of acute services at Westmorland general. Those promises Again, I can only speculate as to the motives of the were kept, but the figures clearly show that the trust management who were behind the closure. At the administration of thrombolysis at the scene almost time, financial motives were cited, although those financial never happens in South Lakeland. Indeed, in the first pressures have actually alleviated significantly. Mostly, six months of operation, only four instances of thrombolysis clinical reasons were put forward for the closure, but took place outside a hospital in the south lakes. In the those clinical reasons were seriously flawed. The solitary other 95% to 99% of cases, the patient is left waiting at piece of clinical evidence used by the hospital trust and least 30 minutes longer for their treatment than they the PCT to justify their decision was the Royal College would have when the Westmorland general’s coronary of Physicians’ guidance notes from 2002, which included care unit was open. I can only speculate why that is a recommendation that consultants in acute medical so—it may be due to a lack of training or a lack of care should not straddle more than one hospital. To confidence. A paramedic is now being asked to perform follow that guidance to the letter would mean closing the same function alone in an immensely stressful situation, acute hospital medical services at either Lancaster or possibly in the presence of distressed relatives, that only Kendal, so the trust chose to close services at Kendal. 22 months ago would have been performed by a team of However, the guidance is just that—it is guidance. It experts and experienced coronary care nurses in a specialist is not an edict. Indeed, in an answer to a written unit. I do not blame the paramedics for not thrombolysing, question from myself to the former Secretary of State, but I blame the trust management for pretending that Patricia Hewitt, it was confirmed that that guidance this practice could ever have been a safe alternative to a was only one of a range of considerations that had to coronary care unit at Westmorland General hospital. be weighed up when trusts were deciding how best to There are additional dangers to patients as a result of deploy acute medical resources and, crucially, that many this decision. Because more than 90% of ambulances trusts, especially in rural areas, had chosen to acknowledge from the south lakes now have to make the journey to the guidelines but had also chosen to continue to operate Lancaster or Barrow to deliver a patient to hospital, the the relevant coronary care unit, because of the greater south lakes ambulances tend to be at least 30 minutes importance of ensuring adequate treatment for patients further away from their next emergency call than they within the golden hour. used to be. That had to have a dramatic effect on We can look at the example of Fort William hospital, response times, and indeed it has. However, some of this where GPs are recruited to fulfil a cardiac role within lengthening of response times has been covered by the the hospital. They are well trained to manage cardiac presence of our outstanding volunteer first responder emergencies, independently if necessary. At Westmorland teams, who will usually get to the scene of an emergency general hospital, the answer could be to recruit a medical before an ambulance and in some cases more than an registrar—a grade doctor—and to ensure the presence hour before an ambulance, thus making it appear that of such a registrar around the clock with sufficient the ambulance service has met its response time target supporting cardiac-trained nursing staff. The reality is when in reality it has not. that, before the loss of coronary care services at 139WH Accident and Emergency 23 JUNE 2010 Accident and Emergency 140WH (Westmorland General Hospital) (Westmorland General Hospital) [Tim Farron] has not always been well managed in the NHS. I assure my honourable colleague that the Government are Westmorland general, a consultant would very rarely be determined to do these things differently, and to get present during the acute stages—as is the case with local populations behind changes in the NHS. We believe most other coronary care units—and that the senior that the best decisions are local and that change should house officer or registrar would manage just as well as a be driven by local clinicians and not imposed, top-down, consultant. One only needs to look at the outstanding by politicians or decided behind closed doors by managers. performance indicators from the coronary care unit in That is why we introduced an immediate moratorium Kendal until 22 months ago to see that. on new or pending service reconfigurations. As the Minister will be aware, local geographical and The Secretary of State for Health has made it clear territorial politics can often be just as significant as that all proposed service changes must now pass four party politics. In our case, the rural catchment area for crucial tests. First, they must have the support of GP Westmorland general seems to have been squeezed out commissioners. Secondly, public and patient engagement by the more urban interests of the two districts either must be strengthened; that was at the hub of my colleague’s side of us. That is despite our large and often larger words. Thirdly, there must be greater clarity about the population. clinical evidence base for any proposals—a matter also I quote what a senior trust representative told Kendal mentioned by my honourable colleague. Fourthly, proposals town councillors when the closure proposal was made. must take account of patient choice. As a result, the He said: local NHS will have to make its proposals more transparent “We had argued for 10 years with our administration that to the public, more responsive to the views of the acute medical services should be transferred from WGH to Lancaster. clinical community and more firmly grounded in robust They had resisted it but when the financial crisis occurred, we saw clinical evidence. our opportunity. We recognise that the Consultation process was defective and we argued for accurate costs to be included but the In the case brought to the House by my honourable final decision was the one we wanted. That is all that matters.” colleague, it means that there may be new opportunities I do not have time to give full details of the flaws in for local debate, with new clinical judgments on how the process that led to the closure of Westmorland’s services should operate. However—my colleague will be emergency service. Instead, I have chosen to make an disappointed to hear me say it—this is not an opportunity outline case for such provision to be returned. In answer to revisit reconfigurations that have already been completed. to my question about cancer services on 9 June, the That simply is not possible. That means that the 2006 Prime Minister made it clear that the present Government review will not be reopened, and that the decision will do not follow the “one size fits all” mantra of the stand. However, I note my honourable colleague’s concerns previous Government that big is always beautiful. I about valuation and patient safety; the Department of know from his visits and those of the Deputy Prime Health has raised them with the primary care trust and Minister to Westmorland that they are particularly the local NHS trust. In case I forget to say so in my supportive of our cause. concluding remarks, I know that a Health Minister will be happy to meet my honourable colleague. As someone who lives in the south lakes area and whose family and friends rely on local services, I simply I understand that following a full public consultation, want the safest and most appropriate emergency care Cumbria county council’s health and well-being overview for our communities and the hundreds of thousands and scrutiny committee approved the changes; they who visit our communities each year. I ask the Minister were not referred to the Secretary of State for review by to do all that she can to ensure that emergency services the independent reconfiguration panel. are restored to Westmorland general as a matter of urgency. Tim Farron: The overview and scrutiny committee did indeed rubber-stamp the proposals, but its process 4.46 pm was deemed flawed by an investigation by the independent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health health commissioner because it did not take any evidence (Anne Milton): Thank you for calling me to speak, from the non-trust side. It was a completely loaded Mr Benton; we seem to have spent a fair bit of time here investigation. today. I congratulate my colleague the hon. Member for Anne Milton: I thank my honourable colleague for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) on securing that clarification, and it highlights so well what happens this debate. I know that the future of Westmorland when things cease to have public trust and confidence. general hospital is a matter of long-standing interest My honourable colleague has made the case for acute and concern to him. He spoke with passion—and some services to be reinstated at the Westmorland. The NHS frustration, because he has clearly been fighting a long trust tells me that the coronary care unit had to be and hard campaign. As a constituency MP, I have closed on the grounds that it was no longer sustainable engaged in not dissimilar exercises in connection with a or safe. There is an increasingly difficult balance to be community hospital and a large acute trust hospital. I drawn between services that are local and accessible and possibly lost one, but won the other. I know how those that have a significant throughput to ensure that passionate he must feel—and how passionate his clinical safety is maintained. A service might have been constituents feel, which is demonstrated by the size of safe in the past, but that does not necessarily mean that the petition that he presented. it will be safe in the future. I understand that, on I know how important hospital services are to local average, the service treated only three or four patients a communities, and how worrying it can be to local week, and that level of throughput is simply not enough people when services are moved. The fact is that change and potentially puts patients at risk. 141WH Accident and Emergency 23 JUNE 2010 Accident and Emergency 142WH (Westmorland General Hospital) (Westmorland General Hospital) Tim Farron: I have two quick things to say. First, will Anne Milton: And let us pay tribute to first responders; the Minister investigate what evidence there was at the I have them in my constituency and they do a fantastic time of the closure for the Westmorland general unit to job. be deemed less safe than the other two units that we have mentioned at Barrow and Lancaster? Secondly, Tim Farron: Indeed. will she conduct an assessment of the position with regard to the safety of patients now? In other words, Anne Milton: It is not always about the time spent what impact has the closure had on the safety of patients getting to the hospital, but the treatment in the first or visitors within the South Lakeland area? crucial half hour or so. Anne Milton: There are two issues here: what happened Provided paramedics can reach the patient quickly, in the past and what happens in the future. The concerns they can provide treatment and stabilise them en route, that my honourable colleague has about safety in the which is often preferable, and then go to a hospital or future will be examined, and I am sure that Department an A and E department further away. However, the of Health officials will help with that. I understand that expertise has to be provided by the ambulance staff. Professor Roger Boyle, the national director for heart “Dead on arrival” incidents would be reported, and disease and strokes, has said that he does not believe NHS Cumbria has advised me that no such cases have that reopening the cardiac unit will be best for the local been reported in the past 18 months, but the hon. people, so that should be borne in mind. He feels that it Gentleman may have data that goes back further. would not be feasible to provide primary angioplasty Unfortunately, when it comes to serving rural for severe heart attacks at the Westmorland. He also populations, the NHS has to balance what is safe with thinks that for less severe heart attacks, Westmorland what is desirable. This is very tricky and it is held in the cannot provide the most appropriate care, such as early balance. There is no doubt that across the country the referral for intervention. However, I do recognise my NHS is facing considerable challenges, and the local honourable colleague’s legitimate concern over the use NHS in Cumbria is no different from any other. We of pre-hospital thrombolysis, and over the fact that it is made an historic decision, as a coalition Government, low in Cumbria. Clearly, more work is needed to ensure to protect health spending during this Parliament and that heart attack patients in Cumbria get the best to secure the front-line services that our constituents possible treatment. value so highly, but it is clear that local health services I understand that the trust is listening to my honourable need to change and to become more efficient to secure colleague’s concerns and that it is looking to increase their long-term future. That will not always be a smooth the number of cardiologists from three to five across the process; there will be tough calls to make in the future, regions. Those clinicians will be based at the Royal as there have been in the past, but a clearer and more Lancaster infirmary and the Furness general hospital, open process, led by clinicians and putting the local but they will help to build extra capacity in the treatment people firmly in the picture, will, I hope, reduce the of outpatients. That might not be enough here and now, anxiety that my honourable colleague has spoken about but it is something that my honourable colleague can today. I hope that it will also build the trust that we need take away. around such decisions. That is how we can achieve higher standards and better outcomes. I understand that there has never been an accident and emergency department—whatever that means in I said to my honourable colleague that I am sure that this day and age—but I am also told by the NHS trust the Minister will be happy to meet him. The question is: that there would be insufficient volume of patients how does my honourable colleague move forward with going through Westmorland to sustain a full A and E his constituents and how do we ensure that, even if we department. An A and E department has to have back-up cannot right what has happened in the past, we move services, such as intensive care and CT scanning, to forward constructively? This is just a suggestion, but if support the unit, and the Westmorland is not in a he and local GPs formed a small informed group to position to provide those facilities. The trust’s argument, work with the trust, I would hope that the local NHS therefore, is that it is safer for patients to access those organisations could take into account some of his concerns services at Barrow or Lancaster, and I appreciate that about the future of health services. What matters now is that is fundamental to this debate and will be fundamental what happens in the future. I hope that they can provide to ongoing discussions, because my honourable colleague the service that he wants to see. believes that the opposite is the case. My honourable colleague also mentioned travel times, Tim Farron: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving and I am told that the North West Ambulance Service way so often. Would that include the possibility of the advises that across Cumbria, the average time for it to local GP community, should they so wish, moving get to the scene is 10 minutes. He might dispute that, towards something akin to the Fort William situation but that is what I have been told. The average time on that I mentioned earlier? scene assessing and treating a patient is 20 minutes and the average time from Kendal to Lancaster under normal Anne Milton: I thank my honourable colleague, but I driving conditions—not with blue lights—is 20 to 30 am always very nervous about stepping outside my pay minutes. I acknowledge that patients on the far reaches grade. The crucial thing now is how we and local MPs of his constituency have further to travel. who have fought closures and reconfigurations move forward constructively; and we cannot reopen what has Tim Farron: I simply reiterate my earlier point: in gone in the past. Local GPs and clinicians forming a rural areas, the bulk of those times record the time that group to work with and alongside the local primary the first responder arrives—the ambulance probably care trust could ensure that good and improving decisions arrives another 20 minutes later. are made about NHS services. 143WH Accident and Emergency 23 JUNE 2010 Accident and Emergency 144WH (Westmorland General Hospital) (Westmorland General Hospital) [Anne Milton] he feels that he can get the access to Ministers; I hope that will restore his trust and the trust of his local It is not always about how close someone lives to a community. hospital. Across his constituency, life expectancy will Question put and agreed to. vary by 10 years or more, and that has nothing to do with proximity to the hospital, but with deprivation. The issue of health care is much wider than this debate. 4.59 pm There is an open door for my honourable colleague, so Sitting adjourned. 15WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

which courts to close, a further assessment will take Written Ministerial place on the level of savings that could be achieved and the potential value that could be released from the Statements disposal of the properties. I believe that as well as savings to HMCS there will also be savings for other criminal justice agencies by focusing their attendance at Wednesday 23 June 2010 a single accessible location within a community. When public finances are under pressure, it is vital to TREASURY eliminate waste and reduce costs. At the same time we should also take the opportunity to think afresh about IMF (New Arrangements to Borrow) how we can provide more modern court services. The arrangements we currently have are historical and now need to be reassessed to ask if they meet the needs of The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): society as it is today. We increasingly use the internet The Government have today laid the International and email to communicate and access services and we Monetary Fund (Limit on Lending) Order 2010 before travel further to work, for leisure and to do our weekly the House of Commons. Copies of the revised New shop. Providing access to justice does not necessarily Arrangements to Borrow, which relate to this order, mean providing a courthouse in every town or city. have been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses. Across the civil and criminal courts there are great opportunities to harness technology more effectively so JUSTICE people do not necessarily have to physically attend court when they give evidence or access court services. HM Courts Service Estate Not all disputes need to be resolved in court. I will also examine ways of enabling more people to resolve their disputes in a way that leads to faster and more satisfactory The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice solutions. We will continue to develop proposals for (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I am today announcing proposals introducing alternatives that deliver a better service for for consultation that I believe will enable HMCS to best less money. provide vital public services to local communities. Our court system has long been a guardian of British values The consultation seeks the views of all with an interest of fairness and responsibility. I believe that the changes in local justice arrangements. I will take all views expressed proposed in this statement will preserve those values. into account before making any decision on which courts ought to be closed and when. I also invite views We need to look critically at the services courts on how the courts service could be modernised to provide—they are a vital pillar of the justice system but improve the justice system as well as reduce its costs. they are not the only forum where civil disputes can be resolved. I want to explore whether more people can The consultation also includes proposals on the merger resolve their disputes using alternative methods which of a number of local justice areas which would enable give faster solutions that are flexible to people’s needs. effective changes to courthouse provision. This will Across the civil, family and criminal courts, I want to facilitate further efficiency savings in administrative look at what can be done to use technology more work, while enabling an effective service to continue to effectively so fewer people have physically to attend be provided by magistrates to the public. court for routine purposes. Increasingly we are using I am also announcing that following a consultation the internet, telephone and video technology in our on the proposed closure of Leigh County Court in work and personal lives—we should be more rigorous 2009, I have decided that this court should close without in exploring their use across the justice system. further delay. Since an arson attack two years ago, all HMCS currently operates out of 530 courts, some of cases that would have been heard in Leigh are being which do not fit the needs of modern communities. heard in Wigan or Warrington, only seven and 10 miles Their number and location does not reflect recent changes away respectively. This has not caused any disruption to in population, workload or transport and communication the delivery of justice in Greater Manchester. links over the many years since they were originally The consultation documents and the full list of courts opened. we are consulting on will be published on the Ministry My Department has published consultation papers of Justice website. Copies will be placed in the Libraries setting out proposals to close 103 magistrates courts of both Houses, and in the Vote Office and the Printed and 54 county courts and inviting views on how we can Paper Office. best provide local justice services in our communities across England and Wales. In reaching decisions on closures I will ensure that we keep courts in the most strategically important locations, communities continue Legal Aid Reform to have access to courts within a reasonable travelling distance, that cases are heard in courts with suitable facilities and that there is an overall reduction in cost. The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Closure of the courts covered in the consultation (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I confirm that we are considering would achieve running cost savings of around £15.3 million policy on the subject of legal aid in England and Wales per year. These courts also have backlog maintenance as announced in the Government’s document “The of around £21.5 million, costs that can be avoided if the Coalition: our programme for government” published closures go ahead. Following a full analysis of responses last month. The Government are considering how to to the consultation, and a decision on whether and make the system more efficient having regard to the 17WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS current financial climate, while ensuring that it continues these necessary financial constraints with the interests to play a vital part in ensuring that people can get of justice and the wider public interest. We will seek to access to justice. develop an approach which is compatible with fair and This Government’s immediate priority is to reduce necessary access to justice for those who need it most, the financial deficit and encourage economic recovery. the protection of the most vulnerable in our society, the We have made it clear that the main burden of the efficient performance of the justice system, and our deficit reduction will be borne by reduced public spending, international legal obligations. achieved by financial discipline and the most efficient We intend to seek views on our proposed new approach and effective delivery of public services. I am seeking to in the autumn. develop an approach to legal aid spending which balances 211W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 212W Written Answers to Departmental Official Cars Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many (a) Questions civil servants and (b) special advisers in his Department are entitled to the use of (i) a car with a Wednesday 23 June 2010 dedicated driver, (ii) a car from the Government car pool and (iii) a taxi ordered through a departmental account. [3210] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Robert Neill: There are no individual, members of Council Housing: Bolton staff with Communities and Local Government who have a contractual right to the use of a car with a Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for dedicated driver, a car from the Government car pool or Communities and Local Government what plans he a taxi ordered through a departmental account. has to write off local authority debt in respect of council housing in Bolton; and if he will make a Housing: Construction statement. [3737] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew Stunell: Bolton council is currently undertaking Communities and Local Government (1) what his a formal statutory consultation and ballot of their policy is on setting minimum standards for space in the tenants on a proposal to transfer their homes to a new home for new residential housing developments; [3451] landlord. My predecessor agreed that this transfer should (2) if he will re-introduce the Parker-Morris proceed to consultation with tenants in a ministerial standards for space in the home in respect of new statement on 16 December. The transfer of homes residential housing developments. [3452] would require housing debt to be transferred from local to central Government. I am content for this consultation Robert Neill: The Government have not yet decided to proceed. upon their detailed approach towards the issue of standards for new residential housing developments. It has, however, Council Housing: Construction committed, in the Coalition Government document ‘The Coalition: our programme for government’, to John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for publish and present to Parliament a simple and consolidated Communities and Local Government pursuant to the national planning framework covering all forms of answer to the hon. Member for Vauxhall of 15 June development and setting out national economic, 2010, Official Report, column 368W, on council environmental and social priorities. We will set out how housing: construction, how much his Department we intend to do this in due course. Our abolition of the contributed to local authorities from the National minimum density target in the revised version of Planning Affordable Housing Programme for the building of Policy Statement 3 will, however, encourage the greater new homes in the last five financial years. [3881] provision of family homes. Andrew Stunell: The Homes and Communities Agency Local Government Finance provided £97 million grant in 2009-10 to support local authorities build new council housing under the Local Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority New Build programme (a subset of the National Communities and Local Government what recent Affordable Housing Programme). There was no direct representations he has received on proposals for local support for new council housing in the previous four authorities to issue bonds to raise finance for financial years. infrastructure projects; and if he will make a statement. Councillors: Pay [3334]

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: The Department has not received any Communities and Local Government how many recent representations on this issue. Under the prudential remunerated councillors there are in each county. system local authorities are able to borrow for capital [3337] projects without Government consent, provided that they can afford the borrowing costs. Authorities are free Robert Neill: My Department does not hold this to choose the source of these loans, and may borrow, information. should they wish to do so, by issuing bonds. The Government are committed to looking at how greater John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for use could be made by authorities of this way of raising Communities and Local Government how many finance. council cabinet members receive remuneration; and how much each local authority has allocated for Planning Permission expenditure on such remuneration in 2010. [3338] Jacob Rees-Mogg: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: My Department does not hold this Communities and Local Government what powers information. Each council makes available locally for planning authorities have to penalise persons who have public inspection the allowances paid to each of their proceeded with unauthorised developments in councillors. We are committed to ensuring that councillors’ circumstances where it has been established that the remuneration is published in a more open and standardised developer was aware of the applicable regulations. way to increase transparency. [3426] 213W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 214W

Robert Neill: Local planning authorities have a range Robert Neill: My Department commissioned Advantage of discretionary powers to deal with unauthorised West Midlands to procure consultants (Wardell Armstrong) development. Key among these is the issue of an to verify the nature and scale of the land instability enforcement notice, failure to comply with which is a problems in the Ironbridge Gorge. My officials have criminal offence and may lead to prosecution in the completed the review of the consultants’ report and the courts. The penalty for non-compliance is a fine of up long term strategy for addressing the land instability to £20,000 on summary conviction or an unlimited fine issues in Ironbridge Gorge will be considered in the on conviction on indictment. In determining the amount spending review, which will be published this autumn. of any fine to be imposed the court shall in particular have regard to any financial benefit which may have Wind Power: Planning Permission accrued or appears likely to accrue to the offender as a Christopher Pincher: To ask the Secretary of State for consequence of the offence. Communities and Local Government whether he plans to limit the maximum permissible height for wind Social Rented Housing: Standards turbines located near residential areas. [3630]

John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Robert Neill: We are currently considering proposals Communities and Local Government what estimate he for permitted development rights for small scale renewable has made of the cost of completing the Decent Homes and low carbon energy technologies and the height programme in each year from 2011-12. [3886] limits that might apply, and will set out the next steps on permitted development rights shortly. Looking ahead, Andrew Stunell: The estimate of the cost of repairs we will radically reform the planning system to give backlog contained in the council housing finance neighbourhoods far more ability to determine the shape consultation document is £3.2 billion. Funding for capital of the places in which their inhabitants live, based on investments in council housing post 2010-11 will be the principles set out in the Conservative party publication decided in the spending review. ‘Open Source Planning’. In the Coalition Agreement the Government stated that they will publish and present to Parliament a simple and consolidated national planning Standards Board for England framework covering all forms of development. We will make an announcement on how we propose to take Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for forward the national planning framework and the Communities and Local Government when he expects implications for specific areas of planning policy. the abolition of the Standards Board for England to take place; and if he will ensure that it is replaced by an Working Neighbourhoods Fund effective system for dealing with complaints against Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for members of local authorities. [3511] Communities and Local Government what assessment he has made of the effects on local authorities with Robert Neill: We will implement the commitment in high levels of multiple deprivation of the reduction of our Programme for Government to abolish the Standards funding allocated to the Working Neighbourhoods Board regime as soon as practicable, and intend to Fund announced on 10 June 2010. [3723] repeal the provisions of the Local Government Act 2000 which established the Standards Board through our Bill Robert Neill: The Working Neighbourhoods Fund is to devolve greater powers to councils, announced in the paid as part of Area Based Grant. All local authorities Queen’s speech for this session. that are eligible for Working Neighbourhoods Fund We are committed to the highest levels of standards have received a reduction in their Area Based Grant of behaviour by local authority members and will ensure funding. This ensures that councils have the flexibility any devolved regime achieves this. to take decisions locally on how to deliver the savings needed. Subsidence: Ironbridge Gorge Where revenue grants to local authorities have been reduced, no local authority will face a reduction of more than 2% overall. It is for local authorities to David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for decide where their priorities and opportunities for efficiencies Communities and Local Government if he will allocate lie across the totality of their responsibilities. funding to the land instability remediation works in the Ironbridge Gorge; and if he will make a statement. [3585] WALES Robert Neill: The allocation of departmental budgets Business Relocation for the whole Parliament will be decided in the spending review, which will be published in the autumn. Departments 11. Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for will then determine how to allocate their resources Wales what recent discussions she has had with within their sectors. ministerial colleagues on encouraging the relocation of businesses to Wales. [3044] David Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether his Mr David Jones: My right hon. Friend and I view Department has completed its review of the Ironbridge encouraging investment into Wales as one of the key Gorge Land Instability Report produced by Telford roles of the Wales Office and intend to promote this and Wrekin Council. [3586] message across Government and elsewhere. 215W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 216W

As I said in my earlier answer to the hon. Member for managing a Grade II* Listed Building. My officials are Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) the Secretary of State currently looking at a number of options to restore has already discussed inward investment with the Secretary Gwydyr House to a state that ensures the building of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and we will remains structurally safe and provides an acceptable both discuss it with other ministerial colleagues in the working environment for staff. In addition, work will be weeks and months to come. undertaken during the summer recess to strengthen the structure of the first floor, which has been dangerously National Assembly for Wales weak for a number of years.

12. Kevin Brennan: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental furniture Wales what timetable has been set for the referendum on further law-making powers for the National Assembly for Wales. [3045] Nick Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how much has been spent on (a) office furnishings and Mrs Gillan: Subject to the approval of Parliament (b) refurbishment for her Department’s properties and the National Assembly for Wales, we are aiming for since 12 May 2010. [4131] the referendum to be held by the end of the first quarter of next year. It will then be for the people of Wales to Mrs Gillan: There has not been any expenditure on decide the outcome of the referendum on further law- office furnishings or refurbishments since 12 May 2010. making powers for the National Assembly for Wales. Child Trust Fund Departmental Pay

Mrs Siân C. James: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Wales how many families in Wales have received pursuant to the answer of 7 June 2010, Official Report, payments from the Child Trust Fund since its column 12W, on departmental manpower, what the inception. [3039] salary range is of staff employed at each grade in the private office of each Minister in her Department. Mr David Jones: The latest available statistics show [3251] that 179,000 Child Trust Fund accounts have been opened in Wales for children born from 1 September Mrs Gillan: The salary bands for staff employed in 2002 to 5 April 2008. both Private Offices are as follows:

Companies House: Nantgarw Grade Salary bands (£) S of S office PUSS office Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales (1) if she will meet employees of Companies House to Senior Civil Service 58,200-117,800 — Higher Executive 25,700-33,200 — discuss the proposed closure of Companies House Officer—Fast operations in Nantgarw: [3180] Stream (2) whether she plans to visit the offices of Senior Executive — 38,662-47,496 Companies House in (a) Cardiff and (b) Nantgarw; Officer [3181] Executive Officer 22,755-28,000 22,755-28,000 (3) whether she has had discussions with (a) the Admin Officer 20,754-25,023 — Welsh Assembly Government and (b) Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council on the decision Departmental Public Expenditure by Companies House to close its operations at Nantgarw. [3183] Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: I am naturally concerned for all people in Wales (1) how many of her Department’s contracts Wales who find themselves in such circumstances, and I with its suppliers are under review as a result of the have discussed this issue with the Secretary of State for recently announced reductions in public expenditure; Business, Innovation and Skills. He has assured me that and what the monetary value is of all such contracts staff are being kept fully informed of developments. which are under review; [3648] I understand that the hon. Member met with the (2) how many officials in her Department are chief executive of Companies House on 17 June and I working on renegotiating contracts for the supply of hope that he was similarly reassured. goods and services to the Department as a result of recently announced reductions in public spending; Departmental Buildings what savings are expected to accrue to her Department from such renegotiations; how much expenditure her Mr David: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Department will incur on such renegotiations; and whether she has authorised any building renovations to when such renegotiations will be completed. [3670] Gwydyr House; and whether she plans to make any structural changes to Gwydyr House. [2698] Mrs Gillan: The Wales Office is a separate entity within the Ministry of Justice, and uses their centralised Mrs Gillan: Gwydyr House has not been subject to contracts. Wales Office staff take no direct role in any refurbishment work for some years and its current poor negotiations but my department will benefit from any state of repair is not in keeping with our obligations for savings gained. 217W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 218W

Devolution I made clear that without the release and participation of all political prisoners including Aung San Suu Kyi, Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Burma’s elections will not be free and fair. The subsequent Wales how many times she has met Members of the summit statement reflected the EU’s concern. To mark European Parliament representing Wales since her Aung San Suu Kyi’s 65th birthday, my right hon. Friends appointment; and what was discussed at each such the Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary and I called meeting. [3456] on the military regime to end her detention. Our ambassador in Rangoon repeatedly raises the need for Mrs Gillan: I have met one Welsh MEP, exchanged the release of prisoners of conscience, including Aung correspondence with another MEP and my private office San Suu Kyi, with Ministers in the Burmese military is still waiting to find a mutually convenient date to government. We will continue to raise the plight of meet them all in the near future. Burma’s political prisoners including Aung San Suu Economic Situation Kyi through the EU, with Burma’s neighbours, and we will highlight the issue in the UN Security Council and Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for UN’s human rights bodies. We endorse the UN Working Wales what recent discussions she has had with CBI Group on Arbitrary Detention’s recent observation Wales on the state of the Welsh economy. [3042] that the ongoing detention of Aung San Suu Kyi is illegal and in violation of international human rights Mrs Gillan: I have had initial meetings with several law. Welsh business organisations, including CBI Wales, who I addressed last Friday in Cardiff. I intend to have Colombia: Political Prisoners further such meetings in the weeks and months ahead in Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for order to forge constructive working relationships with Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent these key stakeholders in the Welsh economy. reports he has received on the number of political RAF St Athan prisoners being held in Colombia. [3407] Jessica Morden: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Jeremy Browne: We have not received any recent Wales what discussions she has had with the Deputy reports on the number of political prisoners held in First Minister of Wales on the effects on the economy Colombia. in Wales of the proposed St. Athan Defence Training Departmental Reviews Academy. [3457] Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Gillan: I have met the Deputy First Minister on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the several occasions since I took office. Discussions focussed answer by the Leader of the House of 8 June 2010, on a range of issues affecting Wales. Official Report, column 137W, on Government departments: reviews, what reviews are being undertaken by his Department; for what purpose in FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE each case; and on what timescale. [2632] Algeria: Foreign Relations Mr Lidington: The Coalition Agreement sets out in Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for detail the Government’s future plans, including the key Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he is reviews it will be undertaking. My Department will taking to encourage bi-lateral relations with Algeria. bring forward detailed information about these reviews [3462] in due course. Alistair Burt: The UK already enjoys a good bilateral relationship with Algeria. There is established cooperation NORTHERN IRELAND on trade, migration, counter-terrorism and energy and Departmental Pay our two countries have signed agreements in areas of judicial cooperation, migration and defence relations. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Recently we have worked closely together at the UN to Northern Ireland pursuant to the answer of 7 June deter the payment of ransoms for hostages to terrorist 2010, Official Report, column 19W, on departmental groups and at the Conference on Disarmament and the manpower, what the salary range is of staff employed Non-Proliferation Treaty review conference and I look at each grade in (a) the London office and (b) the forward to discussing further action in areas of mutual central support staff team. [3252] interest with my Algerian counterparts over the coming months. Mr Paterson: The salary range for staff employed in the joint Private Office in London and the central Aung San Suu Kyi support staff team in Belfast is set out as follows. Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for London Office and central support staff (Belfast) Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Salary range representations he has made to the Burmese A £40,966-£54,838 government on the detention of Aung San Suu Kyi. B1 £31,013-£38,893 [3618] B2 £24,816-£30,520 C £18,336-£26,086 Mr Jeremy Browne: I raised Burma with ASEAN D1 £15,348-£17,099 Ministers at the EU-ASEAN Ministerial on 26 May D2 £13,543-£14,756 2010 at which the Burmese Foreign Minister was present. 219W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 220W

London based staff are paid an additional sum of Mr Blunt: NOMS has in place a drug treatment £4,400 per annum for London Weighting. framework, based on the National Treatment Agency’s Belfast based staff receive an additional revised revised Models of Care, to address the needs of drug environmental allowance payment of £287 per annum. misusing prisoners. The interventions available are designed to meet the needs of low, moderate and severe drug State Retirement Pensions misusers – irrespective of age, gender or ethnicity. Core elements of the framework are available in all adult Mr Redwood: To ask the Secretary of State for prisons across England and Wales. Higher intensity Northern Ireland how many people in Northern services are available in selected sites according to the Ireland are in receipt of the state pension. [3406] drug treatment needs offenders. Mr Paterson: This is a devolved matter which is the The interventions are comprised of: responsibility of the Northern Ireland Minister for Clinical services, detoxification and/or maintenance prescribing; Social Development whose department sponsors the CARATs (Counselling, Assessment, Referral, Advice and Social Security Agency. Throughcare service) - specialist support and advice services Terrorism that, following assessment, deliver psychosocial interventions, treatment and support. CARATs are available in all adult prisons in England and Wales and take the lead Drug Interventions Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for Programme (DIP) role in prisons, engaging with prison Northern Ireland whether he has received a security Resettlement teams and Criminal Justice Integrated Teams assessment of the murder of a man on the Shankill (CJITs) in the community; Road, Belfast on 28 May 2010; and if he will make a Drug Rehabilitation Programmes - There are 113 drug rehabilitation statement. [3561] programmes running in 96 establishments. Prisons provide a range of drug rehabilitation programmes that vary in programme Mr Paterson: I receive regular security assessments length - from four weeks (Short Duration Programme) to more from my security advisers. The murder of Bobby Moffet than a year (therapeutic communities). on the Shankill Road on 28 May is subject to an The intensive drug treatment programmes available ongoing police investigation and I do not wish to make in prison can be split into four main categories: any further comment on it at this time. The cognitive-behavioural therapy (CBT) The 12-Step approach JUSTICE Therapeutic Communities (TCs) Short Duration Programme (SDP) Marriage: Homosexuality This Government believe that more can be done to cut drug related reoffending by overhauling the system Chris Bryant: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if of rehabilitation. We are considering how sentencing he will bring forward proposals to allow civil weddings and treatment for drug use can help offenders to come and partnership ceremonies to include religious off drugs once and for all. This includes the exploration readings, music and symbols. [2119] of alternative secure treatment based accommodation. Lynne Featherstone: I have been asked to reply. Prisons: Religion Currently, same-sex couples can enter a civil partnership under the Civil Partnership Act 2004 which gives them Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the opportunity to obtain legal recognition of their Justice how much the HM Chief Inspector of Prisons relationship. Couples who register their civil partnerships report on experiences of Muslim prisoners cost to gain vital rights and protections, similar to married produce. [3091] couples. Civil partnership registrations are entirely secular in nature and, as with civil marriage, prohibited from Mr Blunt: This material for this review was gathered taking place on religious premises, or containing any between February 2009 and June 2010, during which religious language. An amendment made to the Equality time the inspectorate also produced 14 other thematic Act 2010 removed the express prohibition on civil reviews, 132 inspection reports of prisons, young offender partnerships taking place on religious premises. institutions, immigration detention facilities and police This Government are committed to supporting civil custody, as well as a range of other work. The report partnerships. This week, the Prime Minister launched drew on material gained in the course of the Inspectorate’s Working for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender normal inspection activity with some further research Equality, an ambitious programme of work to tackle by inspectorate staff. For this reason, it is not possible outdated prejudices and ensure equal chances for everyone, to produce discrete costings for this review. whatever their sexual orientation or gender identity. It contains a commitment to talk to those with a key interest in this issue about what the next stage should be SCOTLAND for civil partnerships, including how some religious organisations can allow same-sex couples the opportunity Departmental Pay to register their relationship in a religious setting if they wish to do so. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Prisons: Drugs Scotland pursuant to the answer of 7 June 2010, Official Report, column 3W, on departmental Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice manpower, what the salary range is of staff employed what arrangements are in place for rehabilitation of at each grade in the private office of each Minister in drug addicts in prisons in England and Wales. [3843] his Department. [3249] 221W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 222W

David Mundell: All staff in the Scotland Office are on Departmental Manpower secondment, mainly from the Ministry of Justice or the Scottish Government. There are currently four full-time Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for the staff in the Secretary of State for Scotland’s office and Home Department what her estimate is of the cost to two full-time staff in the Parliamentary Under-Secretary the public purse of proposed reductions in numbers of of State’s office. There are also three other full time non-front line staff in her Department and its agencies. staff in the Private Office. They are all employees of the [493] Ministry of Justice. Detailed information relating to salary ranges by grade is available from the Ministry of Justice. Nick Herbert: We do not yet have a precise estimate of the reductions in non-frontline staff which will be needed this year. But we will be seeking to minimise the costs of those reductions, by using, in the first instance, HOME DEPARTMENT recruitment freezes and normal turnover. Alcoholic Drinks: Crime Departmental Official Cars David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate she has made of the Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for the number of people convicted of crimes in which alcohol Home Department what her policy is on the use by was a contributory factor in each of the last three Ministers in her Department of cars allocated from (a) years. [3317] her Department’s pool and (b) the Government car pool which are manufactured in the UK; whether James Brokenshire: The data requested on crimes Ministers in her Department are entitled to request the where alcohol is a contributory factor is not collected use of a car manufactured in the UK; and if she will centrally. make a statement. [2419] Children Nick Herbert: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for given by my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Under- the Home Department what estimate she has made of Secretary of State (Mike Penning) on 14 June 2010, the number of mothers of babies classified by the Official Report, column 290W. police as having been abandoned who were subsequently re-united with their babies in each of the DNA: Databases last five years. [3765] Nick Herbert: The requested data are not collected Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for the centrally. Home Department, how many convictions for serious Although the Home Office collects data on the offences attributable to evidence held on the National number of offences of abandoning a child under the DNA database there have been since the database’s age of two years recorded by the police, the Home inception. [3261] Office does not collect related data on the number of these children who are subsequently re-united with James Brokenshire: Data on the number of their mothers. convictions obtained in which DNA match evidence from the National DNA Database (NDNAD) was a Closed Circuit Television contributory factor are not collected centrally. Alan Johnson: To ask the Secretary of State for the However, data are available on the number of Home Department what plans she has for the future detections in which a DNA match was available. Table regulation of closed circuit television; and if she will 1 shows the number of serious crimes detected in which make a statement. [3817] a DNA match was available for each year from 2005-06 to 2008-09. Data are not available for earlier years. Mrs May: [holding answer 22 June 2010]: In our The figures do not include: additional detections Coalition programme for Government, we have stated where an offender admits further offences following a that we will further regulate CCTV. We will bring detection for which a DNA match was available; or forward proposals in due course. crimes detected as a result of one-off speculative searches of the NDNAD or from comparing DNA Demonstrations: Barking profiles in a forensic laboratory, procedures which are used mainly in the investigation of serious crimes such Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the as murder and rape. Consequently, the figures provided Home Department what reports she has received on in Table 1 under-represent the overall contribution of disturbances to public order during the parade by the DNA matches to the detection of serious crimes such 1st Battalion of The Royal Anglian Regiment at as murder and rape. It is also important to note that Barking on 15 June 2010. [3823] convictions are obtained through integrated criminal Nick Herbert [holding answer 22 June 2010]: The investigation, not through DNA evidence alone. Metropolitan police inform me there were three arrests The source of the figures provided is the forensic for public order offences during the parade by the 1st performance data, which are collected by the Home Battalion of the Royal Anglican Regiment in Barking Office from police forces. The figures for 2009-10 are on 15 June. not yet available. 223W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 224W

The data provided are management information and allow councils and the police to shut down permanently any have not been formally assessed for compliance with shop or bar found to be persistently selling alcohol to children; the Code of Practice for Official Statistics. double the maximum fine for under-age alcohol sales to £20,000; Detections of crimes in which a DNA match was available permit local councils to charge more for late-night licences to Serious pay for additional policing; crime ban the sale of alcohol below cost price; categories 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 review alcohol taxation and pricing to ensure it tackles binge Homicide 77 88 83 70 drinking without unfairly penalising responsible drinkers, pubs Rape 223 195 184 168 and important local industries. Other sex 115 84 64 106 Entry Clearances: Overseas Students offences Other 754 790 849 861 violent Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State for the offences Home Department how many applications for student Robbery 584 547 617 603 visas were (a) granted and (b) refused in 2009; and Notes: how many such applications from each country of 1. A ’detection’ means that the crime was cleared up and a DNA match was available. origin have been (i) granted and (ii) refused in 2010 to 2. The police data on forensic activity uses 12 broad crime categories. date. [3696] 3. The five crime categories listed above broadly equate to ’serious crime’. 4. The other seven categories of the forensic activity data (not shown) 1 broadly equate to less serious crime e.g. burglary, vehicle offences, criminal Damian Green: The total number of student visas damage, drugs offences etc. issued and refused in 2009 was 303,635 and 104,536, 5. The table gives data only for ’Detections in which a DNA match is available’. It does not include ’Additional detections where an offender respectively. The number of student visas issued and admits further offences following a detection for which a DNA match was refused in the first Quarter of 2010 by nationality of the available’. applicant is shown in the following table: 6 The ’Other violent offences’ category of the forensic activity data include 1 violence offences both with injury and with no injury. In the Recorded Crime Excludes student visitors Statistics, approx half of the crimes in the category ’Violence against the Person’ (excluding homicide) are violence offences with no injury. It is likely Student visa applications: Main applicants January to March 2010 that a similar proportion of the ’Other violent offences’ category of the Nationality Applications Issued Refused forensic activity data shown above are also offences with no injury. Source: Afghanistan 106 66 45 Police data on forensic activity and detections Albania 84 45 41 Algeria 103 68 48 Drugs and Alcoholic Drinks: Crime Andorra 0 0 0 Angola 63 53 21 Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for Antigua and 110 the Home Department what steps she plans to take Barbuda with local communities to reduce the level of drug- and Argentina 28 28 7 alcohol-related crime. [3325] Armenia 12 9 4 Australia 74 81 12 James Brokenshire: The Government are committed Azerbaijan 53 31 22 to tackling drug and alcohol related crime wherever it Bahamas 6 5 4 occurs. Based upon the Coalition Programme for Bahrain 91 79 13 Government, a cross-department review of drugs policy Bangladesh 7,558 5,024 2,617 is underway. Barbados 7 9 0 Belarus 19 13 7 UK drug laws already provide the opportunity for Belize 1 1 1 criminal justice interventions with problem drug misusers Benin 2 2 0 to contribute to reducing drug misuse and drug-related Bhutan 4 3 3 crime. We will conduct a full review of sentencing Bolivia 13 11 5 policy to ensure that it is effective in deterring crime, Bosnia and 13 9 3 protecting the public, punishing offenders and cutting Herzegovina reoffending. In particular, we will ensure that sentencing Botswana 25 18 6 for drug use helps offenders come off drugs. In addition, Brazil 756 638 125 we will explore alternative forms of secure, treatment-based British national 65 56 24 accommodation for drugs offenders. overseas As clearly set out in the Coalition Agreement, we will Brunei 29 25 3 also introduce a system of temporary bans on new Burkina 5 4 2 emerging ’legal highs’ to protect the public, especially Burma (Myanmar) 150 65 133 young people, from drug harms and to combat Burundi 3 2 1 unscrupulous manufacturers and suppliers who target Cambodia 14 7 6 young people In the Coalition Agreement the Government Cameroon 198 123 102 set out a clear programme of reform around alcohol Canada 141 122 19 licensing to tackle the crime and antisocial behaviour Cape Verde 2 0 2 Central African 202 that is too often associated with binge drinking in the Republic night-time economy. In particular, the Government set Chad 2 1 1 out six specific commitments. The Government will: Chile 57 50 9 overhaul the Licensing Act to give local authorities and the China 2,414 2,192 2,461 police much stronger powers to remove licences from, or refuse to Colombia 1,229 957 2,52 grant licences to, any premises that are causing problems; 225W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 226W

Student visa applications: Main applicants January to March 2010 Student visa applications: Main applicants January to March 2010 Nationality Applications Issued Refused Nationality Applications Issued Refused

Comoros 3 2 1 Morocco 135 88 45 Congo 24 4 25 Mozambique 4 4 0 Costa Rica 3 3 0 Namibia 4 2 2 Croatia 22 12 9 Nauru 3 0 1 Cuba 2 1 1 Nepal 2,807 7,42 1,105 Cyprus 0 1 1 New Zealand 18 22 3 Democratic 21 7 16 Nicaragua 2 2 0 republic of Congo Niger 3 1 2 Djibouti 5 0 5 Nigeria 2,468 1,716 1,082 Dominica 3 2 1 Oman 72 70 7 Dominican 550Pakistan 9,195 5,154 4,585 Republic Panama 2 1 2 Ecuador 51 37 19 Papua New Guinea 1 1 0 Egypt 153 79 50 Peru 50 44 16 El Salvador 1 0 0 Philippines 3,481 1,071 1,002 Equatorial Guinea 12 9 3 Qatar 96 95 7 Eritrea 1 0 1 Ethiopia 13 11 4 Russia 224 163 100 Gabon 6 0 6 Rwanda 28 16 12 Gambia 75 44 30 Sao Tome and 000 Principe Georgia 54 37 22 Saudi Arabia 1,896 1,657 263 Germany 2 1 0 Senegal 62 36 26 Ghana 137 78 88 Serbia 31 23 9 Grenada 3 4 0 Seychelles 4 3 1 Guatemala 3 1 3 Sierra Leone 32 16 21 Guinea 21 9 12 Singapore 53 40 16 Guyana 5 3 3 Somalia 6 1 4 Haiti 2 0 1 South Africa 99 60 35 Honduras 3 4 0 South Korea 1,562 1,605 1,29 Hong Kong 119 102 24 Sri Lanka 2,848 1,905 1,086 Hungary 1 0 0 St Kitts and Nevis 0 1 0 India 18,188 9,231 8,257 St Lucia 8 7 3 Indonesia 89 66 39 St Vincent 4 4 0 Iran 730 390 328 Stateless (art one 110 Iraq 70 37 30 1951 convention) Israel 30 16 13 Sudan 38 21 18 Ivory Coast 25 6 22 Swaziland 2 1 1 Jamaica 11 8 3 Syria 88 43 53 Japan 945 871 73 Taiwan 276 272 24 Jordan 132 88 48 Tajikistan 3 2 3 Kazakhstan 120 154 40 Tanzania 130 67 89 Kenya 131 72 69 Thailand 747 565 129 Kosovo 19 8 11 Togo935 Kuwait 144 129 23 Tonga 1 2 0 Kyrgyzstan 38 13 31 Trinidad and 29 19 12 Laos 1 1 0 Tobago Lebanon 52 38 26 Tunisia 20 14 8 Lesotho 11 5 6 Turkey 1,427 1,070 429 Liberia 1 1 2 Turkmenistan 77 47 30 Libya 651 605 57 Uganda 56 37 35 Macau 7 6 1 Ukraine 72 56 33 Macedonia 32 24 8 United Arab 163 154 9 Emirates Madagascar 6 3 2 United nations 0 1 0 Malawi291517 United states 748 788 98 Malaysia 390 300 101 Unspecified 323 Maldives 2 0 2 Nationality Mali 13 6 8 Uruguay 3 3 1 Mauritania 7 2 5 Uzbekistan 82 37 68 Mauritius 86 72 20 Venezuela 85 59 36 Mexico 149 106 82 Vietnam 369 262 106 Moldova 6 4 5 Refugee 1951 11 4 6 Mongolia 119 58 135 Convention Montenegro 6 4 2 Hong Kong 8 8 2 227W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 228W

Student visa applications: Main applicants January to March 2010 Number of appellants Nationality Applications Issued Refused Total appeals Palestinian 45 25 24 determined by Allowed as Authority immigration percentage of adjudicators/judges Allowed determined Yemen 93 35 49 Yugoslavia 4 3 2 20081 167,835 56,740 34 Zambia 60 26 29 1 Provisional figures. Zimbabwe 32 17 19 Note: Data rounded to the nearest 5. Total 66,200 40,787 26,677 Source: Data for January to March 2005: Home Office Presenting Officers; April 2005 The data in this table is based on Management to December 2008: Tribunal Service, Draft AIT Business Plan April 2009 Information and as such has not been quality assured. This data is available on page 88 of the “Control of It is provisional and subject to change. Immigration: Statistics United Kingdom 2008” available Identity Cards from: http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- stats.html Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, how much the Identity and Data for 2009 is due to be published on 26 August 2010. Passport Service has received in application fees for (b) The proportion of appeals to the Tribunal/ identity cards from applicants in (a) the UK, (b) the Reconsideration Hearings for 2005 to 2008 that were North West and (c) Greater Manchester. [3276] allowed are as follows:

Damian Green: The Identity and Passport Service Number of appellants (except January to March 2005, number of persons received total income of £196,000 from the issue of bringing the onward appeal) Total appeals to the Allowed as identity cards in the financial year 2009-10. It is not tribunal/reconsideration percentage of possible to provide information relating to particular hearings determined Allowed determined constituencies or regions for identity card applications. Excluding asylum Immigration: Appeals appeals 2005 1,935 600 31 2006 2,915 1,095 38 Richard Harrington: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 6,510 2,880 44 the Home Department what proportion of (a) first and 20081 6,140 2,995 49 (b) second tier immigration appeals were allowed in each year since 2005. [3272] Including asylum appeals Damian Green: The following figures provide the 2005 9,685 2,050 21 proportions of immigration appeals both including and 2006 7,320 2,380 33 excluding asylum. 2007 10,305 4,330 42 Between April 2005 and February 2010, the Asylum 20081 8,805 4,075 46 and Immigration Tribunal (AIT) operated a single tier 1 Provisional figures. system; a First-tier Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Note: Data rounded to the nearest 5. Chamber) and Upper Tribunal (Immigration and Asylum Source: Chamber) did not exist, so it has been assumed that: Data for January 2005 to September 2006: Business Plan March 2008; April ‘first tier’ refers to appeals determined by immigration 2005 to December 2008: Tribunal Service, Draft AIT Business Plan April 2009 adjudicators/judges; and This data has not previously been published. The ‘second tier’ refers to appeals to the Tribunal/Reconsideration data has been taken from the Draft AIT Business Plan Hearings. April 2009 to be consistent with the data provided for (a) The proportions of immigration appeals determined part (a). by immigration adjudicators/judges for 2005 to 2008 Police: Chauffeur-driven Cars that were allowed are as follows: Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for Number of appellants the Home Department how many chief constables have Total appeals determined by Allowed as chauffeur-driven cars; and at what total cost to the immigration percentage of public purse. [2201] adjudicators/judges Allowed determined

Excluding asylum Nick Herbert: This information is not held centrally. appeals Arrangements as to cars and drivers are matters for 2005 66,805 24,795 37 individual police authorities and chief constables to 2006 151,355 51,320 34 decide. 2007 139,880 44,985 32 20081 157,115 54,265 35 Police: Elections

Including asylum Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the appeals Home Department what assessment she has made of 2005 100,250 30,400 30 the merits of a cap on election expenses for candidates 2006 167,310 54,860 33 for posts as directly-elected police commissioners. 2007 154,825 48,370 31 [3609] 229W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 230W

Nick Herbert: The Government have made no decisions £ million yet on this issue. Electoral arrangements for directly 2010-11 elected individuals will be considered as the Government Home Office Amended prepared for the Police Reform and Social Responsibility police grant 2010-11 Bill this autumn. as agreed Home Capital grant Amended February Office as notified 2010-11 2010 police grant January 2010 capital grant

Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Dyfed- 35.2 34.4 1.0 0.9 Home Department what assessment she has made of Powys the merits of different methods of election of Gwent 48.6 47.5 1.4 1.3 directly-elected police commissioners. [3611] North 48.5 47.4 1.5 1.4 Wales South 105.5 102.9 3.0 2.8 Nick Herbert: The Government have made no decisions Wales yet on this issue. Electoral arrangements for directly Welsh 237.8 232.2 6.9 6.4 elected individuals will be considered as the Government total prepares for the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill this autumn. The remaining £10 million of the £135 million relates to a reduction in policing counter terrorism grants spread across England and Wales. This reduction was Police: Finance applied to forces in both England and Wales on the advice of ACPO (TAM) and agreed by the Home Office. The specific allocation of these grants is not put Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the into the public domain for reasons of national security. Home Department what discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on the effects of a council tax No other reductions have been made to Home Office freeze on police precepts. [3610] budgets in 2010-11 which would have a specific impact on Wales. Nick Herbert: It is agreed Government policy that council tax will be frozen for at least one year, and we Sexual Offences: Registration will seek to freeze it for a further year, in partnership with local authorities. A further announcement will follow in due course. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps the Government plans to take in response to the Supreme Court’s judgement Public Expenditure: Wales on R (on the application of F (by his litigation friend F)) and Thompson (FC) (Respondents) v. Secretary of State for the Home Department (Appellant); and if she Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [3414] the Home Department with reference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s announcement of 24 May 2010 and James Brokenshire: We are considering the Supreme pursuant to the answer of 7 June 2010, Official Report, Court’s judgment carefully before deciding on the most column 69W, on public expenditure: Wales, if she will appropriate action. In the meantime, registered sex provide details of her Department’s non-devolved offenders will still have to comply with the notification public expenditure savings that will be incurred in requirements as they currently stand. Wales, including an estimate of the financial savings. [2937] UK Border Agency Nick Herbert [holding answer 17 June 2010]: The Home Office made a contribution of £367 million to Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the the £6 billion in-year public expenditure savings announced Home Department how many cases were raised with by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on 24 May. These the UK Border Agency by each hon. Member between savings were focused on the back office and lower-value May 2005 and May 2010. [3270] spend. The majority of these reductions were made to the cost of the Home Office and its agencies but there Damian Green: The UK Border Agency only has was also some impact on the police, which should be central records of inquiries from hon. Members that are met by efficiency savings and savings found from within made in writing to Ministers or direct to the agency’s discretionary non-frontline spend. We are confident MPs’ liaison unit; e-mails to the central MPs inquiry that forces can manage these reductions whilst leaving e-mail address and phone calls to the MPs’ inquiry line. the frontline of policing strong and secure. These records date back to the start of 2007 so information Police funding for 2010-11 has been reduced by a on the number of inquiries made between May 2005 total of £135 million of which £125 million was comprised and December 2006 are not available. of reductions to the core police grant and police capital The table placed in the House Library shows the grant. The details for Welsh forces is set out as follows. number of inquiries made by hon. Members each year This information was laid before the House in a written from 2007 to 31 May 2010. The number of written ministerial statement on 27 May 2010, Official Report, inquiries includes letters written to Ministers, direct to columns 12-16WS. This reduction is equivalent to less the UK Border Agency as well as e-mails received by than 1% expected total police spending this year. the agency. 231W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 232W

The data have been manually reconciled from DEFENCE correspondence and telephone inquiry management Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations systems. Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for War Crimes: Universal Jurisdiction Defence pursuant to the oral statement of 14 June 2010, Official Report, columns 663-6, on Afghanistan, Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State for whether the £67 million announced is to fund the Home Department, what recent representations she counter-improvised explosive device teams in addition has received on the applicability of universal to those which were planned by the previous jurisdiction to representatives of foreign governments government. [3486] accused of war crimes travelling to the UK; and what steps the Government plans to take on the matter. Dr Fox [holding answer 21 June 2010]: The Prime [3052] Minister confirmed, in his statement on 14 June, that an additional £67 million will be made available for resources Damian Green: The Home Secretary has not received to counter the threat from improvised explosive devices representations on this matter, which is the responsibility (IEDs). This £67 million will be made available to fund of the Justice Secretary. a commitment made by the previous Government that The purpose of asserting universal jurisdiction, as we was never fully funded. This is new money—over and have done in relation to war crimes under the Geneva above funding that has already been approved—and Conventions Act and a few other offences of exceptional will allow us to equip a significantly increased number gravity, is to ensure that there is no impunity for those of specialist counter-IED teams, and generate increased accused of such crimes. But it is important that universal capacity to mitigate the threat from IEDs. jurisdiction cases should be taken only on the basis of Animal Experiments solid evidence that is likely to lead to a successful prosecution, and the Government are considering how Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for to secure that outcome. Defence how many animals of each species were used in scientific procedures undertaken under the Wickham Research Laboratories: Animal Experiments provisions of the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 which were commissioned directly by his Matthew Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Department in each year since 2004. [3397] the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2010, Official Report, column 230W, on Peter Luff: DSTL returns the numbers of procedures Wickham Research Laboratories: animal experiments, undertaken involving animals at DSTL Porton Down when she expects to be in a position to consider the to the Home Office on an annual basis, the numbers of findings of the review. [3413] procedures returned for last five years are detailed in the following table. This is the only Home Office designated Lynne Featherstone: I expect to receive the report by 5 defence establishment. DSTL has an ongoing initiative July 2010 and will publish the results when I have to reduce the use of animals in the scientific research considered its findings. programme.

Number of DSTL procedures returned to the Home Office Guinea pig Ferret Mouse Pig Rabbit Rat Sheep Non-human primate Total

2005 661 60 20,016 127 3 195 2 54 21,118 2006 545 0 15,986 123 0 335 4 52 17,045 2007 647 0 17,095 74 5 359 2 75 18,257 2008 254 0 10,404 113 2 549 0 55 11,380 2009 190 0 7,698 96 30 5 0 149 8,168

Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) England, (b) Wales, (c) Scotland and (d) Defence whether the Ethical Review Committee at Northern Ireland. [3707] Porton Down is in operation. [3476] Mr Robathan: The information is not held in the Peter Luff: Yes. format requested. The vast majority of service personnel will live near to where they are stationed during their Armed Forces normal duty hours but may travel to other areas during off duty periods such as weekends or leave periods. The Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for following table provides information on the permanent Defence how many and what proportion of members location of service personnel stationed in United Kingdom of each of the armed services are normally resident in at 1 April 2010.

Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of Naval Service members Army members Royal Air Force members

England 33,160 86 77,400 71 36,740 83 Wales 160 0.4 1,730 2 1,040 2 233W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 234W

Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of Naval Service members Army members Royal Air Force members

Scotland 4,370 11 3,330 3 4,370 10 Northern Ireland 30 0.08 3,870 4 230 0.5

The table does not include those individual on permanent employer’s national insurance contributions and notional non-operational postings outside the UK. Personnel on superannuation contributions plus an uplift for operational deployments will be shown against their administration costs. most recent station. Atomic Weapons Establishment Armed Forces: Mental Health Services Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence at what intervals the Atomic Weapons Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Establishment’s Nuclear Safety Committee met in the for Defence (1) what his policy is on mental health last 12 months; and what the names are of the screening for serving military personnel; [3445] committee members. [2026] (2) whether he has assessed the merits of the establishment of an NHS post-traumatic stress Peter Luff: Meetings of the Atomic Weapons disorder treatment programme for military personnel. Establishment’s Nuclear Safety Committee are held on [3446] a monthly basis. Additional meetings are held as required in response to business requirements, but no such meetings Mr Robathan: The Government take mental health have been required in the last 12 months. issues extremely seriously, and our “Programme for With regard to the names of the committee members, Government” makes clear that we will provide extra I will write to the hon. Member shortly. support for ex-service personnel. The Prime Minister has asked Dr Andrew Murrison MP to carry out a Colombia: Military Aid study into the health of both serving and ex-service personnel to see what more can be done to assess and Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for meet these needs; a focus of this study will be mental Defence what military aid his Department provided to health. Colombia in the last 12 months. [2893] We are examining a number of ways to develop mental health support for the armed forces, including Nick Harvey: The UK has an on-going programme screening or surveillance techniques. of counter-narcotics assistance for Colombia. It would The Ministry of Defence is also working closely with not be appropriate to provide details about this programme, the Department of Health so that we can better co-ordinate as to do so would prejudice the capability, effectiveness the way we treat ex-service personnel with mental health or security of the armed forces. problems. As part of the military covenant review we In addition to this, in December 2009 the Ministry of will look into how we can better support combat stress Defence hosted a visit to the UK by a small Colombian and other charities that do such excellent work to delegation supporting their preparations to deploy to support those suffering after service. Afghanistan as part of the ISAF coalition. Defence Armed Forces: Per Capita Costs Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Defence what mechanism has been put in place for the for Defence what his policy is on requests from the submission of opinions as part of the Strategic private sector for the use of military personnel for Security and Defence Review. [3602] which the payment of capitation rates would be applicable. [3443] Dr Fox: I refer the hon. Member to my opening speech in the debate on the Strategic Defence and Nick Harvey: The Ministry of Defence does not Security Review on 21 June, Official Report, column 52. routinely provide military personnel to the private sector. Any request from the private sector for the use of Departmental Manpower military personnel and the subsequent cost recovery would be considered on a case by case basis, ensuring Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for there is no operational impact. Defence how many (a) front-line and (b) other staff were employed by (i) his Department and (ii) each of Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State its agencies in the latest year for which figures are for Defence whether the setting of his Department’s available; and what his most recent estimate is of the military manpower capitation rates takes into account annual cost to the public purse of employing staff of (a) past trends and (b) likely future consumption each type at each of those bodies. [532] rates. [3444] Dr Fox: We do not distinguish between frontline and Nick Harvey: Ministry of Defence manpower capitation non-frontline staff. Information in this format could rates are calculated on the basis of actual rates for pay, therefore be provided only at disproportionate cost. 235W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 236W

Information on the number of staff employed, and examine compliance with the Non Proliferation Treaty their cost, is published annually in the Ministry of Review Conference (NPT RevCon), which sets out action Defence’s and defence Trading Funds’ Annual Reports plans for the international community to make progress and Accounts. Copies of the reports for 2008-09 have against the three pillars of the NPT. The outcome of been placed in the Library of the House (see note 9, the NPT RevCon was a good result, and the Government starting on page 217). The figures for 2009-10 are fully support the Chairman’s record and agreed action intended for future publication in the 2009-10 Departmental plan from the NPT RevCon. and Trading Fund Annual Reports and Accounts, which are due to be laid before the House by the Summer Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Recess. Defence pursuant to the answer of 7 June 2010, Statistics on numbers of military personnel and civilian Official Report, column 511W, on Trident, what the personnel are also published on a monthly and quarterly re-examination of the UK’s declaratory nuclear policy basis respectively on the DASA website will include; and what issues related to the replacement www.dasa.mod.uk of Trident in addition to value for money issues will be considered within the framework of the Strategic Decisions on how many military and civilian personnel Defence and Security Review. [3809] we need for the future will be made in the context of the Government’s Strategic Defence and Security Review. Dr Fox: The Strategic Defence and Security Review Iran: Sanctions (SDSR) will re-examine all the constituent parts that together form the UK’s declaratory nuclear policy. This will be done against a background of the political and Dr Julian Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for security environment facing the UK. Defence (1) what Royal Navy assets will be allocated to the imposition of sanctions against Iran; [3124] In addition to the Trident value for money review, the SDSR will look at wider maritime and other conventional (2) whether the Royal Navy will be used to stop and forces required to support the nuclear deterrent and the search vessels bound for Iran as part of the sustainability of the UK submarine industrial base. enforcement of sanctions. [3125]

Nick Harvey [holding answer 21 June 2010]: For RAF Kinloss security reasons, we do not as a matter of routine comment on the operational assignments of UK military Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for units. The Government continue to develop a robust Defence how many incidents there have been involving response to UNSCR 1929 in accordance with international wildlife on the runways at RAF Kinloss in each of the law. last five years. [2624] Military Aircraft Nick Harvey: The number of incidents involving wildlife on the runway at RAF Kinloss over the last five Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for years are shown in the table: Defence what change there has been in the number of UK military airframes available to commanders in the Number of incidents last three years. [2519] 2005 2 2006 2 Peter Luff: Officials are collating the information requested, across the armed forces, and I will write to 2007 3 the hon. Member shortly when this work is complete. 2008 1 2009 3 Substantive answer from Peter Luff to Derek Twigg: I undertook to write to you in answer to your Parliamentary Question on 15 June, (Official Report, column 350W) about the Trident number of airframes available to the armed forces. The number of airframes available to the armed forces at the John Woodcock: To ask the Secretary of State for end of May 2007 and May 2010 was 1,474 and 1,490 respectively; Defence what assessment will be made of the merits of the figures include fixed and rotary wing aircraft and Remotely alternatives to the Trident successor deterrent Piloted Aircraft. The numbers provided are for the Effective Fleet programme in his Trident value for money review; and which comprises all aircraft barring those which are redundant, if he will make a statement. [3838] declared as surplus or awaiting disposal. Nuclear Weapons Dr Fox: The alternatives to a submarine launched ballistic missile submarine have previously been analysed Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for comprehensively and discounted, either because they Defence whether his re-examination of the UK could not provide an effective deterrent capability or declaratory nuclear policy will include consideration of because they cost more. The value for money study is compliance with the commitments in the final reviewing the existing plan for the Trident successor. document of the 2010 Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference. [3613] Warships

Dr Fox: The Strategic Defence and Security Review Ann Coffey: To ask the Secretary of State for will examine all relevant elements of the UK’s nuclear Defence how many ships of each class there are in the declaratory policy. It is not the purpose of this review to Royal Navy. [3569] 237W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 238W

Peter Luff: The information requested is provided in Department’s core purpose of supporting teaching and the following table: learning. At the same time we remain committed to supporting children and families, so that all can achieve Number their potential. We are clear that whilst school reform is a priority so is strengthening and reforming children’s Aircraft Carriers 3 services. We are determined to give parents more support Amphibious Ships 3 and make Britain the most family-friendly country in Type 42 Destroyers 5 Europe. Type 45 Destroyers 2 The only change to the Department’s responsibilities Type 22 Frigates 4 since the renaming is the agreement with the Justice Type 23 Frigates 13 Secretary that the Ministry of Justice would have sole Antarctic Patrol Ship 1 responsibility for youth justice in the new coalition Hunt Class Minehunters 8 Government. Responsibility for youth justice was previously Sandown Class Minehunters 8 shared between departments supported by a Joint Youth Survey Ships 4 Justice Unit. We agreed that it was important that one Offshore Patrol Vessel 1 Department, the Ministry of Justice, was clearly accountable River Class Patrol Vessels 3 for this important area of reform. Gibraltar Squadron 2 Faslane Squadron 2 Carers: Children Archer Class Fast Training Boats 14 (University Royal Navy Units) Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Education, what his most recent estimate is of the In addition, the Royal Navy has 11 submarines (ballistic number of grandparents and extended kin providing and fleet). unpaid care for children in England and Wales; and if he will make a statement. [2934] EDUCATION Sarah Teather: The Department does not collect figures Academies on the numbers of grandparents and extended kin who Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for Education provide child care. However in 2008, the Childcare and how many full-time equivalent civil servants in his Early Years Survey of Parents found that: 26% of all Department are engaged in work on policy families had used grandparents to provide child care; development and programme delivery in relation to 5% had used an older sibling; and, 6% had used another academy schools. [1210] relative. The number of families in 2008 using informal childcare as a whole (which included grandparents, Michael Gove: There are currently around 115 civil ex-partners, older siblings, other relatives and a friend servants in the Department for Education engaged directly or neighbour) was estimated at 2,116,000. in work on policy development and programme delivery related to academy schools. There is a substantial number of other civil servants in the Department who make a significant contribution to policy development and TREASURY programme delivery related to academy schools as part Debts: Interest Charges of their wider role. In addition there are 47 staff in the Young People’s Learning Agency involved in funding Kate Hoey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and supporting open academies. if he will estimate the revenue that would be raised in Departmental Manpower 2010-11 if the tax deductibility of interest payments on (a) (b) Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for debt were removed from financial and private Education what his estimate is of the cost to the public non-financial corporations. [3409] purse of proposed reductions in numbers of non- Mr Gauke: The revenue that would be accrued in frontline staff in his Department and its agencies. [487] 2010-11 if the tax deductibility of net interest payments Michael Gove: The Department for Education is subject on debt were removed for private non-financial corporations to the same recruitment restrictions as all other Government is estimated to be around £5.5 billion. No estimate has Departments. It has not yet identified any necessary been made for financial corporations. additional reductions to its non-frontline staff and therefore Northern Rock cannot provide any estimate in relation to cost. The cost to the Department of any release payments Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer this year will be disclosed in the Department’s resource what his policy is on the eligibility for compensation of accounts for 2010/11. former shareholders in Northern Rock consequent Departmental Reorganisation upon the transfer of shares to public ownership. [3502] Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hoban: The Northern Rock plc Compensation Education whether his Department has (a) taken on Scheme Order 2008 provides that the compensation new responsibilities and (b) transferred responsibilities payable to to other departments since its renaming. [1918] “persons who held shares in Northern Rock immediately before Michael Gove: The Department for Education has they were transferred by the Transfer Order” retained the same responsibilities for schools, children (on 21 February 2008) shall be determined by an services and families—the renaming reflects the new independent valuer in accordance with that order. 239W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 240W

On 30 March 2010, the independent valuer, Andrew Employment Schemes: Homelessness Caldwell, issued Assessment Notices to shareholders, setting out his final determinations as to the amount of Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for any compensation payable. He found there was no value Work and Pensions what plans he has to support in Northern Rock’s shares prior to the company being homeless people seeking employment. [3324] taken into temporary public ownership, and therefore no compensation is payable by the Treasury to former Chris Grayling: The Government have announced shareholders or other persons affected by the Transfer that they will introduce the Work Programme, which Order. will offer a single, integrated programme of personalised Under the Northern Rock Compensation Scheme support to unemployed people, regardless of the benefit Order 2008 any persons affected by a determination of they claim. Within this, we will ensure that homeless the valuer may require the valuer to reconsider his people and other disadvantaged groups have access to decision. Mr Caldwell is currently considering the requests the levels of support that they need. for reconsideration that he has received and will in due In order to ensure the best support from providers for course issue Revised Assessment Notices to those who the harder-to-help, we will offer stronger incentives for submitted requests. If any affected party is dissatisfied them to work with these groups, and will pay them out with a Revised Assessment Notice, he may refer the of the additional benefits they realise by moving people matter to the Upper Tribunal. into work. Taxation: Aviation We aim to have the Work Programme in place by summer 2011. Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will undertake an economic impact The first cross-government Ministerial Working Group assessment of the proposed adoption of a per-plane on Preventing and Tackling Homelessness met on 16 June. tax on regional airports. [3604] The working group will explore how we can improve on current arrangements and equip greater numbers of Justine Greening: The Government will explore changes homeless people to come off benefits and into work, to aviation tax, including switching from a per-passenger through better co-ordination of local services. to a per-plane duty. Major changes will be subject to consultation. Employment: Young People

Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for WORK AND PENSIONS Work and Pensions on what estimate of the number of 18 to 24 year olds reaching the (a) six-month and (b) Departmental Public Expenditure 10-month threshold under the youth guarantee scheme Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for his estimate of the cost of delivering that scheme in (i) Work and Pensions what the monetary value is of the 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12 is based. [3903] planned reductions in his Department’s spending. [3780] Chris Grayling: The DWP does not forecast unemployment. In 2010-11 the YoungPerson’s Guarantee Chris Grayling: HM Treasury announced on 24 May will be offered to every eligible young person when they that the Department for Work and Pensions would reach the six month point of their claim to jobseeker’s make efficiencies of £535 million to contribute towards allowance. the £6.243 billion of cross-Government savings for the current year. The emergency Budget on 22 June set out Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the overall envelope for Government spending for the Work and Pensions on what estimate of his years 2011-12 to 2014-15 and detailed departmental Department’s expenditure on (a) Routes Into Work, allocations for the spending review will be announced (b) the Future Jobs Fund, (c) Work-focused Training, on 20 October 2010. (d) the Community Task Force, (e) internships and (f) New Deal places his Department’s plans for the Employment Young Person’s Guarantee in 2010-11 are based. [3904] Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions which welfare to work and Chris Grayling: The Young Person’s Guarantee is employment projects will be replaced by his demand-led therefore a breakdown of the expected Department’s work programme. [3901] expenditure is not available. The Government are committed to providing targeted Chris Grayling: We are finalising the details but the support and will be introducing a single, integrated majority of current welfare to work programmes will be work programme to deliver personalised support for replaced by the new Work Programme; for example, the the unemployed, delivering long lasting benefits with a Flexible New Deal and Pathways to Work will be folded greater focus on sustained employment. into the Work Programme. This Government are committed to providing targeted Jobseekers Allowance: Young People support and will be introducing a single, integrated work programme to deliver personalised support for Yvette Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for the unemployed and ensure that the right kind of support Work and Pensions what requirements 18 to 24 year- is available to all who need it. We will publish further olds who have been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for details as the design and implementation of the Work more than 10 months and wish to continue claiming Programme progresses. will have to comply with from April 2011. [3902] 241W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 242W

Chris Grayling: Jobseeker’s allowance customers are Olympic Games 2012: Facilities required to be available to take up full-time work immediately, and to be actively seeking work as their Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for main activity. With certain exceptions, they must not Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what information delay their return to the labour market by restricting the his Department holds on the locations which have been type of work they are prepared to do or when they are chosen by each country participating in the London prepared to return to work. In addition, customers 2010 Olympics and Paralympics for their training must attend fortnightly jobsearch reviews, and must facilities. [3514] attend interviews with advisers and mandatory employment activity when required to do so. Hugh Robertson: The Government do not hold records By the summer of 2011, the Government aim to have of agreements between potential training facilities and the Work Programme in place nationally. When they the National Olympic Committees (NOCs) or the National enter the Work Programme, young people claiming Paralympic Committees (NPCs). However, to date, I jobseeker’s allowance will be required to take up am aware of 36 agreements between facilities and overseas employment support as a condition of their benefit teams—as shown in the following table. claim. We are currently developing the specification for the Country Location Work Programme. However, the Government are Japan NOC Loughborough University committed to the principle that young people have British Olympic Association Loughborough University access to the support they need, when they need it. British Virgin Islands NOC Hertfordshire University Sport We are also planning further support for young people, Village including mentoring opportunities with small businesses Rwanda NOC Bury St Edmonds and sole traders, more apprenticeships and more further Rwanda NPC Bury St Edmonds education places. Mozambique NOC Comberton Village College Cambridgeshire Bangladesh NOC Harrow, North West London South Africa NOC St Mary’s University, Twickenham CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Sri Lanka NOC Durham University Arts Council England Columbia NOC North-east Thailand NOC North-west Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Oceania—15 Pacific Island NOCs North-west Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans he has Australia NOC Swim Team Manchester to review the effectiveness of the work of the Arts Colombia NPC South-east Council; and if he will make a statement. [3535] Barbados NPC Medway in Kent Malawi NOC South-east Mr Vaizey: As part of the Government’s work to Barbados NOC South-east address the deficit, the work of all public bodies will be Papua New Guinea NPC South-east looked at to ensure the most effective use of public Portugal gymnastics/trampoline Gillingham funds. team Kenya NOC Bristol Listed Events Review Paralympics GB Bath University Malaysia NOC Bath and Loughborough Universities Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Australia NPC Wales Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport if he will publish New Zealand NPC Swansea the responses he has received in relation to his U.S. Track and Field Birmingham Department’s consultation on the Davies Report on Jamaica NOC Birmingham University free-to-air sporting events; and if he will take steps to Serbia NOC Sheffield and Leeds ensure that the Rugby League Challenge Cup Final Zambia NOC Glasgow remains a free-to-air sporting event. [3674] Namibia NOC Glasgow Hugh Robertson: The Government are currently Netherlands NOC Swim Team Leeds considering next steps in relation to the listed events Ukraine Judo Tonbridge review and will make a statement at the earliest opportunity. Belarus Judo Tonbridge Subject to this decision the Government will then consider Malaysia National Sports Institute Bath publishing the responses to the consultation on the South Africa NPC Cardiff Department’s website. Gambia NOC York Azerbaijan Ipswich Olympic Games 2012: Construction

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Olympic Games 2012: Tickets Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent representations he has received on the landscaping of Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State the London 2012 Olympics sites. [3410] for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 7 June 2010, Official Report, column Hugh Robertson: To date, no representations concerning 20W, on Olympic Games 2012: tickets, how many landscaping for the London 2012 Olympic Games and tickets are being offered to government and other Paralympic Games have been made to me or to the Games public sector delivery partners; and whether Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and they are being offered at a lower price than those Sport. available to the public through the ballot process. [3447] 243W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 244W

Hugh Robertson: There will be no free tickets. As part with stakeholders, preparation and publication of public of its ticketing strategy, the London Organising Committee notices, preparation of evidence for the inquiry, cost of of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games will venue hire and the estimated cost for the inquiry inspector. make available a very small number of tickets for purchase by the core Government Departments and public bodies Arriva: Finance responsible for delivering the games. These tickets will be purchased at face value—neither free, nor subsidised. Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government have not yet decided whether they will Transport what annual public subsidy is awarded to take up the offer. Arriva for each bus route it operates on the Isle of Sheppey; and what factors are taken into account in calculating that subsidy. [3223] TRANSPORT A5: M1 Norman Baker: As an operator of local bus services, Arriva is eligible for Bus Service Operators Grant (BSOG). Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for BSOG is paid on the basis of fuel used by an operator Transport whether any work on construction of on eligible services. Additional incentives apply if an junction 11a of the M1 may be undertaken prior to the operator: makes fuel efficiency savings; uses low carbon completion of the public inquiry on the A5-M1 link. buses; or, from April this year, uses smartcard and or [3829] automatic vehicle location equipment (such as GPS). No further factors are taken into account in calculating Mike Penning [holding answer 22 June 2010]: The the grant amount. public inquiry for the A5 M1 Link Road was due to Claims for BSOG show which routes are eligible, but commence on 29 June and immediately follow the inquiry it is not possible to identify exactly what money is paid considering the M1 J10-13 managed motorway junction out for routes operating entirely on the Isle of Sheppey improvements. However, the inquiry into the A5-M1 (as some routes will extend beyond the Isle). Our best link road has been deferred pending the outcome of the assessment of the subsidy paid to Arriva for routes spending review in the autumn. operating wholly or in part on the Isle of Sheppey is It would be inappropriate to undertake any construction £128,000 (based on the latest year for which a certified work for the proposed new J11a as this would pre-judge claim is available - July 2008 to June 2009). the outcome of the public inquiry for A5-M1 link road project. Some of the Arriva services are run on tender to the local authority and so there will be subsidy paid by the Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for local authority in those cases. However, we are not able Transport what the additional cost of building junction to say what payments are made as the arrangements are 11a of the M1 will be in circumstances in which it is not commercially confidential. built at the same time as the automated traffic management works between junctions 11 and 12. Bus Services [3834] Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning [holding answer 22 June 2010]: The Transport what steps he plans to take to encourage public inquiry for the A5-M1 link road scheme was due greater partnership between bus operators and local to commence on 29 June and immediately follow the authorities in the provision of local bus services. [R] public inquiry into the draft orders for the M1 J10-13 [1366] managed motorway junction improvements. However, the inquiry for the A5-M1 link road has been deferred Norman Baker: We have seen good results in places until the outcome of the spending review in the autumn. where local authorities and operators work effectively The additional cost of not building J11a concurrently in partnership to improve local bus services in England with the adjacent M1 J10-13 managed motorway scheme, and Wales—such as in Brighton, Oxford, York and is estimated at approximately £7 million. This is based Cambridge, though there are areas where such effective on deferral of one year. partnership working is not occurring. We want to ensure Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for best practice is spread much more widely to give bus Transport what estimate was made of the cost of the passengers the services they deserve and expect. I am public inquiry into the A5-M1 link before that inquiry therefore talking with bus operators, local authorities was postponed. [3835] and others to determine how this success can be replicated around the country. Mike Penning [holding answer 22 June 2010]: The The outcome of the Competition Commission’s current public inquiry for the A5-M1 link road was due to inquiry into the local bus market in Great Britain commence on 29 June and was programmed for outside London will be an important factor when approximately four weeks. However, the inquiry has considering the potential for partnership working, and been deferred pending the outcome of the spending I await its final report with interest. review. The estimated cost for preparation and holding of Departmental Public Expenditure the public inquiry for this project (based on a four week public inquiry) is £1.8 million. Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for The estimated £1.8 million costs include; preparation Transport pursuant to the written ministerial statement and publication of draft orders, legal costs, consideration of 10 June 2010, Official Report, column 35WS, on of alternative routes proposed by objectors, meetings transport (local authority major schemes), in respect of 245W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 246W programmes for which there are alternative funding England Scotland Wales sources, whether alternative funding must cover the full cost of the programme in all cases. [3832] Casual 3 1 0 1 Includes module 1 tests being delivered from Driving Standards Norman Baker [holding answer 22 June 2010]: The Agency’s Training and Development Centre at Cardington, Bedfordshire. relevant section of the written ministerial statement Network Rail concerned a small number of schemes being developed by local authorities at various stages of their statutory procedures. Officials have written to the relevant authorities Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for stating that due to the urgent priority to tackle the Transport which options he is considering to increase UK’s record budget deficit, the Secretary of State intends the accountability of Network Rail to passengers; what to defer various aspects of the statutory order process, consultation he plans to undertake on these options; unless the authority can provide evidence that alternative and whether he plans to consider the introduction of a funding is available which would allow him to continue co-operative structure for Network Rail. [2811] to make his decision. Such alternative funding would need to cover the total amount of Government funding Mrs Villiers: The Government have a commitment to sought by the authority for the scheme in question. reform Network Rail to make it more accountable to its customers. We are in the process of considering a number Only once the Government’s spending review has of options to implement this, including options relating been concluded will the Department for Transport be in to consultation. No decisions on specific measures have a position to identify those transport projects for which yet been made. central Government funding will be available. Private Roads Government Car and Despatch Agency Mrs Main: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the number of Transport how many staff were employed by the unadopted roads in (a) St Albans, (b) Hertfordshire Government Car Service (a) on 6 May 2010 and (b) at and (c) England. [2259] the latest date for which information is available. [2441] Norman Baker: We are not aware of any up to date Mike Penning: The Government Car Service, part of information which is held centrally on how many unadopted Government Car and Despatch Agency, employed 188 streets there are. The last recorded figures, based on a staff on 6 May 2010. On 11 June 2010, the latest date for 1972 survey, suggested there were around 40,000 such which information is available, the Government Car streets in the UK. Service employed 186 staff. The Government Car Service is currently reviewing Railways: West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester its headcount figures in-line with business operational needs. Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what estimate he has made of the number of Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for train passengers in (a) West Yorkshire and (b) Greater Transport how many vehicles the Government Car Manchester in each of the last five years; and if he will Service has disposed of since the Government came make a statement. [3332] into office. [2442] Mrs Villiers: The information requested is currently Mike Penning: Since this Government came into office published annually in aggregated form by the Office for the Government Car Service has disposed of two cars. Rail Regulation within its ‘National Rail Trends Yearbook’. There are 10 vehicles in the process of being The latest published data relate to passenger journeys in decommissioned for disposal, and a further 18 vehicles 2008-09. identified for decommissioning. Chapter 7 of the latest update of ‘National Rail Motorcycles: Driving Tests Trends’ contains these data and is available on the Office of Rail Regulation website at: http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/server/show/nav.2026 Mr Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many (a) multi-purpose test centres, River Mersey: Bridges (b) Vehicle and Operator Services Agency sites and (c) casual test sites are available to run module one of the Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for motorcycle test in each region. [3898] Transport whether he has received a report from Mike Penning: The number of multi-purpose test officials of his Department on the decision of the centres (MPTC), Vehicle and Operator Services Agency Planning Inspectorate in respect of the proposed (VOSA) sites and casual sites available to deliver module Mersey Gateway bridge. [3761] one practical motorcycling tests in the three nations in Great Britain are as follows: Mike Penning: No. The Secretary of State announced on 10 June 2010, Official Report, column 35WS, that England Scotland Wales Ministers are postponing decisions on orders for local authority schemes requiring funding from this Department MPTC 138 6 3 until after the autumn spending review. Until the position VOSA 11 3 0 on funding for the Mersey Gateway Bridge scheme 247W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 248W becomes clearer, it would be premature for officials to Southeastern: Finance report to Ministers with their recommendations on the statutory orders sought by Halton borough council. Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what annual public subsidy is paid to Rolling Stock: Procurement Southeastern Railways for each route it operates; and what factors are taken into account in calculating that subsidy. [3222] Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport when he expects to (a) receive the report Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport contracts from Sir Andrew Foster on the value for money and an overall payment for each franchise as a whole, rather credibility of alternative options for the Inter City than on a route by route basis. This is done through a Express Programme and (b) inform the House of the bidding process which takes into account the costs and findings of that report. [2749] revenues of the franchise over its contract period. Subsidy details for the Southeastern (Integrated Kent Franchise) Mrs Villiers: The Government expect to receive the are set out on our website and can be found at: report on the value for money of the Intercity Express http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http:// Programme imminently. www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/franchises/ The report—and the Government’s response to it—will franchisepaymentprofiles be published shortly afterwards. Woodhead Tunnel

Runcorn-Widnes Road Bridge Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether his Department plans to continue Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for negotiations with Network Rail and the National Grid Transport how much his Department and its on the availability and use of all three Woodhead predecessors paid in grant support for ongoing tunnels according to the timescales previously agreed. maintenance to the Runcorn-Widnes road bridge in [3144] each year since 1992; and how much has been so Mrs Villiers: Should rail use of the Woodhead tunnels allocated for the financial year 2010-11. [3762] become necessary in the future, the Government would be open to working with Network Rail, National Grid Norman Baker: Halton borough council received specific and local stakeholder groups to consider how best to funding allocations for the years 2008-09 to 2010-11 to bring this about. assist them with maintenance work on the Silver Jubilee Bridge. The allocations were:

£ million ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE

2008-09 4.4 Departmental Pay 2009-10 4.9 2010-11 4.5 Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how much was paid in bonuses to The council was able to use its annual capital highway civil servants in his Department in (a) 2008-09 and (b) maintenance allocation from the Department for Transport 2009-10. [2173] for repairs to this bridge or other priorities. The Department holds records of those allocations from 1998. These Gregory Barker: A close and effective link between show the following allocations to Halton borough council. pay and performance and increased use of variable pay is a key element of the reward arrangements for the civil £ million service—and the senior civil service in particular. Non-consolidated performance payments are an integral 1998-99 0.245 element of the reward package for staff. Non-consolidated 1999-2000 2.684 performance pay has a number of key advantages: 2000-01 2.893 it encourages continuous high attainment because the payments 2001-02 2.893 are dependent upon continuing strong performance; 2002-03 2.893 it prevents a permanent rise in salary and an increase in 2003-04 2.170 pension on the basis of one off performances while still allowing 2004-05 2.611 good performance to be rewarded; 2005-06 1.959 it has no long-term costs, in particular it does not increase 2006-07 2.274 future pension payments; 2007-08 2.192 it focuses the work of employees more directly on the priority 2008-09 1.881 goals of the organisation; 2009-10 2.023 it motivates employees by linking an element of compensation to the achievement of departmental objectives rather than 2010-11 2.190 offering payment for time served; and Halton borough council also have approval to take it targets money at those who make the biggest contribution. forward a major maintenance scheme for the Silver The Department of Energy and Climate Change Jubilee Bridge. The Department for Transport’s confirmed (DECC) was created in 3 October 2008. contribution for this major maintenance scheme is The total expenditure on such bonuses was: (a) £18.639 million. £469,555 for 2008-09 and (b) £825,986 for 2009-10. 249W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 250W

Radioactive Waste: Waste Management assets and liabilities previously owned by BNFL were transferred to the NDA with its creation in 2005. It sold Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for its main American business, Westinghouse in 2006 for Energy and Climate Change how much has been spent $5.4 billion, and dismantled its UK clean-up subsidiary, on research and development for long-term nuclear British Nuclear Group, over the period 2006-2009. BNFL waste management, site radiological remediation and has no remaining operational activities or businesses facility decommissioning through (a) the Nuclear but its approximate research and development expenditure Decommissioning Authority, (b) NIREX, (c) the up until 2007 is set out as follows: Committee on Radioactive Waste Management and (d) British Nuclear Fuels Ltd in the last 10 years. Spend (£ million) [2343] 1999 81 2000 96 Charles Hendry: The information is as follows: 2001 92 (a) The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) 2002 113 is responsible for the decommissioning and clean-up of 2003 109 the UK’s civil public sector nuclear sites and directly 2004 98 commissions research in support of this mission. Since 2005 92 it was set up in 2005, annual research and development 2006 41 (R and D) expenditure has been approximately: 2007 7

Spend (£ million) BNFL figures up to 2005 include expenditure on R 2005-06 11 and D across the BNFL estate, including that now 2006-07 13 carried out by the National Nuclear Laboratory and the NDA’s site license companies. 2007-08 18 2008-09 11 2009-10 11 HEALTH NDA figures do not include indirect R and D expenditure by NDA’s contractors carried out in support of its Antidepressants mission across the NDA’s estate. For example, that work carried out by the site licence companies who manage David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for nuclear licensed sites on the NDA’s behalf. Site license Health what estimate he has made of the number and company expenditure on R and D for 2008-09 is estimated proportion of people in each region who have been to be in the order of £90 million. prescribed anti-depressant medication in each of the (b) Prior to being incorporated into the NDA on last three years. [3318] 31 March 2007, the role of United Kingdom Nirex Ltd Mr Simon Burns: Information on the number of was to examine aspects of long-term management and people prescribed a medicine is not collected centrally. disposal of radioactive waste. Up until that point, Nirex’s Information on the number of prescription items for research and development expenditure over the last anti-depressants1 dispensed in the community in England decade had been approximately: is in the following table. Spend (£ million) Number of prescription items dispensed primary care by strategic health authority for anti-depressant medicines in (SHA) in England: 1999-2000 5 2007-09 2000-01 6 Thousand 2001-02 8 SHA 2007 2008 2009 2002-03 8 East midlands 2,962.7 3,186.9 3,488.2 2003-04 7 East of 3,851.0 4,108.6 4,474.2 2004-05 7 England 2005-06 7 London 3,114.1 3,294.6 3,571.8 2006-07 9 North-east 2,344.5 2,530.0 2,770.1 North-west 5,704.4 6,032.1 6,515.4 (c) CoRWM’s role was initially to advise Government South Central 2,583.4 2,734.1 2,975.2 on the best options for the long-term management of South-east 2,591.3 2,748.7 2,990.5 higher activity radioactive waste and its remit now is to Coast provide independent scrutiny and advice on the long-term South-west 3,590.5 3,825.6 4,194.5 management, including storage and disposal, of radioactive West 3,277.1 3,484.0 3,801.8 waste. As such it does not undertake specific research Midlands and development. Further information about the Yorkshire and 3,820.8 4,015.9 4,358.7 Committee, including costs, is available from its website the Humber at: Total2 33,839.6 35,960.5 39,140.5 www.corwm.org.uk 1 Anti-depressant medication has been defined as those products (d) British Nuclear Fuels Ltd (BNFL) is a private included in British National Formulary (BNF) Chapter 4.3 (anti- depressant drugs). company owned by UK Government which previously 2 Figures may not sum due to rounding. operated a number of nuclear sites and businesses with Source: operations in the UK and oversees. The decommissioning NHS Prescription Services Information System 251W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 252W

Breast Cancer: Screening the audit are expected to be available in October 2010 and the final findings will be reported by the end of Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State 2010. for Health what expenditure his Department has incurred on the NHS Breast Screening Programme in Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for each year since the programme was established; and if Health what representations he has received on the he will provide a real-terms budget increase for the national audit of the prescribing of anti-psychotic programme for 2011-12. [3698] drugs referred to in his Department’s response to Professor Sube Banerjee’s report on the prescribing of Mr Burstow: The information is not held in the anti-psychotic drugs to people with dementia of requested format. The funding that covers the cost of 12 November 2009. [3402] delivering national health service cancer screening programmes is provided from local primary care trust Mr Burstow: The National Clinical Director for dementia allocations. The most recent assessment, made in 2006, is working with a range of stakeholders to lead the put the cost of NHS Breast Screening Programme at work to implement the recommendations made by Professor £75 million. Sube Banerjee in his report into the use of anti-psychotic Under the NHS Breast Screening Programme, women medicines, which was published in November 2009. A aged between 50 to 69 years are routinely invited for key part of this work is to undertake a national audit of screening and women over the age of 70 can request free the prescribing of anti-psychotic drugs. Representatives three-yearly screening. The programme is in the process from across the health, social care and independent of extending to screening women aged 47 to 49 and sectors with an interest in this issue have been invited to 70 to 73 at a cost of £12 million per year. join a stakeholder reference group to advise the Department There is also a fund of £10 million to provide independent on the development of the audit. quality assurance to the screening programmes, and Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for £4 million of this is for the NHS Breast Screening Health whether he has commissioned research on a Programme. potential correlation between the use of anti-psychotic Figures for 2011-12 are subject to the forthcoming medicines and use of medication to treat Alzheimer’s comprehensive spending review and cannot be provided disease within an institution; whether the national at this time. audit referred to in his Department’s response to Dementia: Drugs Professor Sube Banerjee’s report on the prescribing of anti-psychotic drugs to people with dementia of Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for 12 November 2009 will collect data on the use of Health what recent guidance his Department has anti-Alzheimer’s disease medication; and if he will issued to (a) primary care trusts, (b) NHS trusts, (c) make a statement. [3403] residential care homes and (d) other institutions on the Mr Burstow: The Department is not supporting research use of anti-psychotic medicines for people with of this kind. Work is currently under way, being led by dementia. [3399] the National Clinical Director for dementia in consultation Mr Burstow: The over prescribing of anti-psychotic with a range of stakeholders across the health, social drugs for people with dementia is unacceptable. The care and independent sectors, to develop the scope of National Clinical Director for dementia is leading the the national audit of the prescribing of anti-psychotic work to implement the recommendations made by Professor medicines. This includes determining what data should Sube Banerjee in his report into the use of anti-psychotic be collected. medicines, which was published in November 2009. Work is under way to consider guidance for institutions Drugs: Rehabilitation on this issue. Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will undertake a review of the effectiveness Health with reference to his Department’s response to of methadone and other treatments in tackling drug Professor Sube Banerjee’s report on the prescribing of addiction; and if he will make a statement. [3512] anti-psychotic drugs to people with dementia, of 12 November 2009, when the national audit to generate Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Health data on the prescribing of anti-psychotic medicines what recent evaluation his Department has undertaken began; whether he has received any interim findings of of the use of methadone to rehabilitate addicts; and if that audit; when he expects to receive the final report of he will make a statement. [3842] that audit; if he will publish that audit; and if he will make a statement. [3401] Anne Milton: In 2007 the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) published “Technology Mr Burstow: The Department is working with the Appraisals on methadone and buprenorphine” NHS Information Centre to conduct a review of the www.nice.org.uk/TA114 progress made by primary care trusts to prioritise support and also clinical guidelines on opiate detoxification for people with dementia, through a national audit of www.nice.org.uk/CG52 dementia services. The audit will highlight what progress different localities are making in key areas including and on psychosocial interventions reducing the use of anti-psychotic drugs. Work to develop www.nice.org.uk/CG51 the scope of the audit has begun and once this is for drug misuse. NICE periodically reviews its guidance finalised the data collection will begin. The results of to determine whether an update is required. 253W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 254W

In addition, the Department, in conjunction with public bodies, with our corporate and public websites. other United Kingdom administrations, published updated The converged information will then come into line UK clinical guidelines on drug misuse, “Drug misuse with our current standards on accessibility and our and dependence—UK guidelines on clinical programme of digital inclusion. management—2007”. The National Treatment Agency Gender Recognition: Health Services for Substance Misuse has produced guidance on the evidence base and clinical practice of drug treatment which can be found at: Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what mechanisms are in place to monitor www.nta.nhs.uk/publications.aspx whether primary care trusts provide accessible, timely Electronic Government and high-quality gender identity services; and if he will make a statement. [3351] Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps (a) his Department and (b) its Mr Burstow: Primary care trusts determine their own non-departmental public bodies take to ensure that the local priorities and commission services to meet the principles of digital inclusion are taken into account in needs of their communities. This includes deciding how respect of information made available online. [3429] best to use the available resources to provide gender identity services. Mr Simon Burns: The Department makes information All national health service organisations should comply available online through two websites. Public health with the existing law that provides explicit protection information is available at NHS Choices and rights for transsexual people in a number of areas www.nhs.uk including health services. This covers requirements for and information for health and social care professionals public bodies, including NHS organisations, to proactively is available at promote gender equality which includes transsexual men and transsexual women. www.dh.gov.uk In September 2009 Sir David Nicholson, NHS chief The Department is committed to reaching the 12 million executive, reminded NHS chief executives and their people who are not online, particularly the 4 million teams of their legal duties in relation to gender identity people who are both socially and digitally excluded. services and asked for all cases to be considered individually, The Department, through NHS Choices, runs many according to clinical need and local prioritisation. initiatives with those involved in digital inclusion, including Race Online 2012 and UK online centres. Muscular Dystrophy and Cystic Fibrosis: Research NHS Choices has an intermediary engagement and training programme with library staff and other front Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for line workers to reach older groups, families on lower Health how much funding his Department has incomes and unemployed people. allocated to research into (a) Duchenne muscular dystrophy and (b) cystic fibrosis in 2010. [3479] Features of NHS Choices are available to view on mobile phones and there are also SMS services including Mr Burstow: The usual practice of the Department’s ‘Find My Nearest’ to locate health services such as National Institute for Health Research (NIHR) and of general practitioner surgeries. the Medical Research Council (MRC) is not to ring-fence The Department’s corporate website www.dh.gov.uk funds for expenditure on particular topics: research conforms with Government guidelines for website proposals in all areas compete for the funding available. accessibility, and NHS Choices is currently working Actual expenditure on muscular dystrophy and cystic with AbilityNet, an accessibility expert charity, to make fibrosis research in 2010-11 and beyond will be determined www.nhs.uk more usable for those with disabilities. by the success of relevant bids for funding. As part of our commitment to the rationalisation of The Department’s most recent estimate of past and websites, we are merging those websites not in line with planned expenditure on all single gene disorder (SGD) Cabinet Office guidance and belonging to non-departmental research is shown in the following table.

Actual and planned expenditure on SGD research: 2003-14

£ million

Departmental funding stream Start date End date Expenditure to date Planned expenditure

Genetics White Paper: gene therapy research programme 2004 2010 3 —

NIHR Biomedical Research Centres 2007 2009 2.3 n/a

NIHR Collaborations for Leadership in Applied Health 2007 2010 — 0.05 Research Care

NIHR Health Technology Assessment 2005 2013 1.4 1.8

NIHR New and Emerging Applications of Technology 2006 2009 0.3 —

NIHR Programme Grants for Applied Research 2009 2014 — 2

NIHR Research for Patient Benefit 2010 2012 — 0.2 255W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 256W

Actual and planned expenditure on SGD research: 2003-14 £ million Departmental funding stream Start date End date Expenditure to date Planned expenditure

Policy Research Programme 2006 2010 — 15.8 n/a = Not available. 1 This figure includes the total funding allocated by the Department to the National Perinatal Epidemiology Unit. Only one of the Unit’s five work streams is relevant to SGD but we do not have the means separately to identify the cost of that work stream. Note: Planned expenditure figures are a snapshot of the position at September 2009. Actual expenditure in future years will depend on a number of presently unknown factors, including the possible allocation of funds to new studies.

The NIHR Clinical Research Network is additionally Where major national health service changes are providing national health service research infrastructure proposed, they must meet the strengthened criteria for support to 16 SGD-related studies. such decisions as set out in a letter from the NHS Chief The MRC also invests in genomic research and genomic Executive Sir David Nicholson of 20 May to Monitor medicine. The MRC receives its grant in aid from the and all NHS chief executives. This is to ensure that, in Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. future, all service changes must be led by clinicians and patients and not be driven from the top down. NHS: Finance In these tough economic times it is essential that all major hospital building—whether private finance initiatives or public capital—must be affordable and provide value David Mowat: To ask the Secretary of State for for money for the taxpayer. For foundation trusts, proposals Health what steps his Department plans to take to must be consistent with their independent status in implement its resource allocation formula in respect of relation to reduced reliance on Departmental support. unprocessed distance from target adjustments. [3546] As a foundation trust with independent status, North Tees and Hartlepool has borrowing powers and other Mr Simon Burns: We have guaranteed that health mechanisms available to it to fund alternative capital spending will increase in real terms in each year of the investment requirements. Parliament. However, healthcare spend will also be The trust will have incurred costs in working up the looked at as part of the next spending review. This will proposals, in developing the business case and in performing inform the speed at which primary care trusts move the feasibility studies behind it. As an independent towards their target revenue allocations. foundation trust this information is a matter for Monitor (the statutory name for the independent regulator of North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust NHS foundation trusts) and may be obtained by writing to the Chairman of Monitor. Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for The business case approved in March 2010 anticipated Health (1) if he will take steps to make provision for a request from the trust to the Department for £8 million additional services at the University Hospital of to buy the land on the Wynyard Park site for the new Hartlepool; [3899] hospital. This request was received and met by the (2) pursuant to the oral statement of 17 June 2010, Department. If the trust has no further use for the land Official Report, columns 1040-1, on public spending, then it can be sold to recover the funding. which health capital projects have been approved; The local strategic health authority and primary care [3905] trust have both pledged to continue working closely (3) what costs have been incurred in respect of the with all local NHS organisations to plan and develop new hospital for North Tees and Hartlepool NHS the best possible health services for the population of Foundation Trust; [3906] Hartlepool and North Tees and to ensure that the wider ’Momentum Project’—involving bringing healthcare (4) what clinical advice he took into account in his services closer to communities—will continue. decision to cancel the hospital project at North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust; [3907] The NHS capital investment schemes which were approved to go ahead as a result of the Government (5) what plans he has for the Momentum programme review of spending commitments made under the last in the North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation administration since 1 January 2010 are those for Royal Trust area. [3908] Liverpool and Broadgreen Hospitals NHS Trust, the Royal National Orthopaedic Hospital NHS Trust and Mr Simon Burns: The Government’s review of spending Epsom and St Helier NHS Trust. decisions taken since 1 January this year was to ensure that all the schemes considered were affordable, good value for money and consistent with the Government’s Prescriptions priorities. This was in the context of the most urgent task facing the Government which was to tackle the David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for record levels of debt inherited from the last government. Health (1) what estimate he has made of the number of As part of the statement given by my right hon. free prescriptions which were issued in each region in Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on 17 June each of the last three years; [3319] to the House, the cancellation of the proposed new (2) what estimate he has made of the average cost to £450 million hospital scheme for North Tees and Hartlepool the NHS of items issued on prescription in each region was announced. in each of the last three years; [3320] 257W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 258W

(3) what estimate he has made of the number of Mr Simon Burns: The information requested is shown prescription forms which were submitted in each region in the following table. in each of the last three years; [3321] (4) what estimate he has made of the average number of prescription items issued per prescription form in each region in each of the last three years. [3322]

Number and cost of prescription forms and items dispensed in primary care by strategic health authority (SHA) in England: 2007 to 2009 Items where prescription charges were not paid at the point Prescription Prescription items of dispensing1 Average number Net ingredient Average cost per SHA forms (thousand) (thousand) (thousand) of items per form cost (£000) item (£)

2007 East midlands 34,426.6 70,150.6 65,270.4 2.04 697,319.1 9.94 East of England 43,339.0 86,646.1 79,728.0 2.00 944,385.1 10.90 London 45,142.4 91,068.5 83,849.0 2.02 1,010,949.8 11.10 North-east 23,155.9 48,186.4 45,506.5 2.08 452,184.8 9.38 North-west 60,298.6 126,693.3 119,306.1 2.10 1,342,746.5 10.60 South Central 27,106.7 52,843.3 47,751.3 1.95 567,566.2 10.74 South-east Coast 31,010.2 62,272.6 57,020.8 2.01 719,007.2 11.55 South-west 41,665.3 81,795.8 75,818.8 1.96 787,500.0 9.63 West midlands 43,015.3 87,120.8 81,456.1 2.03 977,250.6 11.22 Yorkshire and the Humber 42,964.7 89,520.6 83,891.9 2.08 873,758.0 9.76 Total 392,124.6 796,298.0 739,599.0 2.03 8,372,667.3 10.51

2008 East midlands 35,932.8 74,898.9 69,976.9 2.08 691,454.2 9.23 East of England 45,077.0 91,852.7 84,987.8 2.04 949,437.2 10.34 London 46,866.7 96,993.4 89,542.0 2.07 998,127.8 10.29 North-east 24,221.9 51,545.4 48,836.8 2.13 445,941.2 8.65 North-west 62,476.4 133,360.3 125,912.8 2.13 1,339,248.4 10.04 South Central 27,994.4 55,950.6 50,787.4 2.00 562,005.0 10.04 South-east Coast 31,870.2 65,603.4 60,334.3 2.06 719,103.2 10.96 South-west 42,976.9 86,469.5 80,377.2 2.01 779,361.3 9.01 West midlands 44,625.4 91,659.2 86,027.8 2.05 967,023.1 10.55 Yorkshire and the Humber 44,490.8 94,168.9 88,463.5 2.12 873,790.8 9.28 Total 406,532.4 842,502.2 785,246.4 2.07 8,325,492.2 9.88

2009 East midlands 37,848.4 78,830.5 74,340.6 2.08 709,446.1 9.00 East of England 47,479.1 96,511.9 90,138.4 2.03 980,306.6 10.16 London 49,732.0 102,895.0 95,662.6 2.07 1,025,452.7 9.97 North-east 25,572.3 54,790.6 52,322.4 2.14 455,927.8 8.32 North-west 64,994.0 139,396.6 132,547.8 2.14 1,362,582.6 9.77 South Central 29,376.3 58,787.2 53,933.0 2.00 574,925.1 9.78 South-east Coast 33,447.9 68,498.7 63,590.5 2.05 738,975.0 10.79 South-west 45,021.2 90,969.7 85,284.5 2.02 800,215.2 8.80 West midlands 46,568.0 96,309.1 91,079.3 2.07 992,811.9 10.31 Yorkshire and the Humber 47,217.2 99,010.3 93,863.1 2.10 898,778.2 9.08 Total 427,256.4 885,999.5 832,762.1 2.07 8,539,421.2 9.64 1 Includes items dispensed to patients holding a pre-payment certificate. Source: NHS Prescription Services Information System

Strokes: Health Services (3) what recent assessment he has made of the effect of support services for stroke survivors on (a) their quality of life and (b) the number of hospital Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health admissions. [3273] (1) how much his Department plans to spend on long term support services for stroke survivors after the ending of the ring-fencing of funding for the National Mr Simon Burns: The National Stroke Strategy was Stroke Strategy; [3300] published in 2007 in order to provide advice, guidance (2) how much was spent on stroke services in each and support for commissioners, strategic health authorities, local authority in each of the last five years for which the voluntary sector and social care to improve services figures are available; [3301] across the whole stroke pathway. 259W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 260W

To support implementation of that strategy, £45 million where details of recipients of CAP subsidy payments additional central funding was made available from are reported. The details included relate to all CAP 2008-09 to 2010-11 as grants to local authorities for scheme payments, including the Single Payment Scheme support to stroke services survivors and their carers. (SPS), made to beneficiaries during the years 16 October This funding was over and above the general funding 2007 to 15 October 2008 and 16 October 2008 to local authorities receive to provide social care support 15 October 2009. This information is published annually for people in their areas. Funding for the period 2011-15 in April. is subject to the spending review. The NAO revisited stroke services in 2009 and in its John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for report “Progress in improving stroke care” (February Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her 2010) it found that, views on the quality of longer term Department paid to the individual in (a) England, (b) care were variable, ranging from very good to very poor. Nottinghamshire and (c) Bassetlaw who received the They also reported that many local authorities had used highest payment under the Single Payment Scheme in the stroke grants to commission support from the voluntary 2009. [3346] sector for stroke survivors, their families and carers identifying 268 such contracts in 2009 compared with Mr Paice: The highest claim paid under the 2009 164 in 2005. However, we have no information on the Single Payment Scheme (England only) was £2,395,356.36. impact of such services on hospital admissions. Further information may be found at When assessing people for support, local authorities generally provide services on the basis of an assessment www.cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/ of the degree of disability a person has rather than on a where details of recipients of CAP subsidy payments medical diagnosis. We therefore do not have information are published on a single website. The details included on the overall amount of money they have spent on relate to all CAP scheme payments, including the Single support for stroke survivors, many of whom will also Payment Scheme (SPS). Details due to be published in have other contributing causes to their disabilities. However, April 2011 will include payments made for 2009 Single the list of allocations made to local authorities from the Payment Scheme between 16 October 2009 to 15 October three year £45 million stroke grant has been placed in 2010. the Library. The Rural Payments Agency does not explicitly record information on payments to farmers on a regional Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health basis. The information requested could be obtained what discussions he had with carers prior to the only at disproportionate cost, therefore we are unable decision to end the ring-fencing of funding for stroke provide a reply to parts (b) and (c) of this question. services. [3302]

Mr Burstow: The decision, as announced recently by John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was taken as part of a Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many wider Government initiative to remove £1.7 billion of farmers received payments under the Single Payment grant ring fencing to enable councils to make local Scheme in Bassetlaw in 2009. [3347] decisions around how to deliver essential front line services more flexibly, such as stroke services. The coalition Mr Paice: The Rural Payments Agency does not Government value the role of carers and their important explicitly record information on payments to farmers contribution to society, and commits the Government on a regional basis. The information requested could be to look at providing greater support to the carers. obtained only at disproportionate cost, therefore we are unable provide a reply to this question. Further information may be found at www.cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/ ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS where details of recipients of CAP subsidy payments Agriculture: Subsidies are published on a single website. The details included relate to all CAP scheme payments, including the Single John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Payment Scheme (SPS), made to beneficiaries during Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much her the years 16 October 2007 to 15 October 2008 and Department paid to farmers in (a) England, (b) 16 October 2008 to 15 October 2009. Nottinghamshire and (c) Bassetlaw under the Single Payment Scheme in 2009. [3345] Animal Health: Expenditure

Mr Paice: As of 16 June 2010, £1,830,966,409.73 has Harriett Baldwin: To ask the Secretary of State for been paid under the 2009 Single Payment Scheme (England Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much the only). Animal Health Agency has spent on (a) veterinary The Rural Payments Agency does not explicitly record services, (b) management and consultants and (c) information on payments to farmers on a regional computer programmes and IT in each year since its basis. The information requested could be obtained inception. [3127] only at disproportionate cost, therefore we are unable provide a reply to parts (b) and (c) of this question. Mr Paice: The amount spent by the Animal Health Further information may be found at Agency in each of these categories is displayed in the www.cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/ following tables in £000s. 261W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 262W

Cereal stocks held on farms in England and Wales at the end of February 2010 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Thousand tonnes Veterinary Services Own grown Bought in

(external) Wheat 4,781 28 Official Veterinarians 23,519 25,273 16,774 20,953 21,802 Barley 1,119 26 (excluding Animal Oats 202 4 Health veterinary staff) Temporary Official 1,296 932 126 25 5 Cereal stocks held in ports, co-ops and merchants in the UK at the end of Veterinarians February 2010 24,815 26,205 16,900 20,978 21,807 Thousand tonnes (internal) Home grown Imported Animal Health 14,550 15,753 14,906 15,226 14,832 Wheat 1,083 116 veterinary staff Barley 848 1— 39,365 41,958 31,806 36,204 36,639 Oats 79 1— Maize 3 54 Management Barley and oats —2 imported1 Board member costs— 620- 745- 690- 670- 900- given as a banding as 625 750 695 675 905 actual cost not The Government have no plans to hold reserves of disclosed food. An assessment of UK Food Security was published Number of members 9 9 11 11 12 in August 2009 (and updated in January 2010). during the year Coastal Areas: Environment Protection Consultants Contractor costs—as 1,804 3,216 3,708 3,555 9,948 Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for per the operating cost Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she statement has for the funding of Pathfinder projects. [3335] Contractor costs— — 1,100 2,200 4,500 4,300 capitalised and therefore included in Richard Benyon: DEFRA has made £7.6 million available IT capitalised costs to 15 coastal authorities under the Pathfinder programme below this year to test innovative approaches to adapting to 1,804 4,316 5,908 8,055 14,248 coastal change. Future funding for projects such as this will be considered as part of the forthcoming spending Computers programmes review. and ST IT—resource costs 1,703 4,459 5,496 2,303 3,736 Brandon Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for IT—costs centrally 7,020 6,879 7,086 9,217 9,425 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in which areas recharged by DEFRA for use of IT she plans further coastal defence measures; and if she infrastructure will make a statement. [3336] IT—capitalised costs— 1,882 4,902 16,756 18,103 14,667 includes capitalised contractor cost above Richard Benyon: In 2010-11 the Environment Agency 10,605 16,240 29,338 29,623 27,828 and coastal authorities plan to construct 41 English coastal schemes (each costing over £250,000) to address Source: Animal Health Annual Report and Accounts coastal flood risk or erosion. These are listed in the following table. The total investment in these coastal schemes during Cereals 2010-11 is £70 million. Some of these will take several years to complete. Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for Plans for future years will depend on the Spending Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what grain Review. reserves the UK held on 31 March 2010; [3789] Operating (2) what her policy is on the maintenance of strategic Project Name EA Region Authority grain reserves. [3790] High Knocke to Dymchurch Southern EA SD - Frontage A Mr Paice: The latest National Statistics produced by Lincshore 2010 to 2015 Anglian EA DEFRA on the tonnages of wheat, barley and oats held Central Area Detailed Design North West Blackpool BC on farms in England and Wales and wheat, barley, oats and Construction and maize held by UK ports, co-operatives and merchants Redcar North East EA were released on 22 April 2010 according to the Shaldon and Ringmore FDS South West EA Eastbourne Beach Management Southern Eastbourne arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority. - 5 yr Plan (Yr 1) borough council It is important to note that stocks held on farms Humber: BAE Works to East North East EA relate to England and Wales on 22 February 2010, and Clough PEVENSEY Bay Sea Defences Southern EA stocks held at ports, co-ops and merchants relate to the PPP UK on 28 February 2010. In previous years the stock Hull TSB Drive Sync North East EA level figures related to the end of March. 263W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 264W

during the forthcoming review of the Common Operating Project Name EA Region Authority Fisheries Policy; [3526] (2) if she will seek to extend the UK fisheries limits Humber East Halton Marshes/ Anglian EA Skitter in future negotiations at EU level on common fisheries Realignment of Littlehaven Sea North East South Tyneside policy reform. [3530] Wall - Phase 2 Council Selsey and Wittering Beach Southern Chichester District Richard Benyon: In negotiations on the reform of the Recharge (beneficial use of Council maintenance Common Fisheries Policy (CFP), the UK will be seeking Holland Haven Sea Wall Anglian Tendring District to enable individual member states to manage marine (Gunfleet Boating Club Council resources more effectively through better integration of frontage) fisheries management with other marine policies. With Whitby East Pier Extension North East Scarborough that in mind, we will be seeking changes that enable Urgent Works Borough Council member states to develop and implement measures to Steart Managed Realignment South West EA manage marine ecosystems more efficiently beyond the Haldon Pier, Torquay, South West Torbay Council Structural Repairs and Rock six mile limit. We also want to see reform of the CFP Armouring delivering a simplified and decentralised decision-making Truro Tidal Defences Including South West EA framework that allows those closest to a fishery to take FFA decisions on appropriate management measures. SEASALTER to Graveney Sea Southern EA Defences Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Margate Flood and Coast Southern Thanet District Protection Scheme Council Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has BIS5 - Beach Improvement South West Bournemouth undertaken a cost-benefit analysis of extending UK Scheme Stage 5 (linked to stage Borough Council competence to manage an exclusive UK inshore fishing 4) effort within a limit of (a) 12 and (b) 24 nautical Great Yarmouth Compartment Anglian EA miles. [3527] C Weston-super-Mare Sea South West North Somerset Defences Council Richard Benyon: The UK has not undertaken a specific Denge Beach Management Southern EA cost benefit analysis with respect to extending the UK 10/11 competence to manage an exclusive UK inshore fishing Cullercoats Bay Design and North East North Tyneside effort. We are, however, working with others across the Construction Council EU to shape the European Commission’s proposals on Bridlington Spa Royal Princes North East East Riding of Common Fisheries Policy reform. We will wish to examine Parade Seawall Construction Yorkshire Council carefully the Commission’s emerging options, which we Humberston Fifties Coastal Anglian North East Defence upgrade Lincolnshire expect to see over the next few months. It is not yet clear Borough Council how these will affect member states’ control over inshore Medmerry Managed Southern EA fishing effort but I am keen to promote decentralisation Realignment of fisheries management away from the current centralised Wave Reflection Wall North West Lancaster CC regime. Of course, any reassessment of member state Remediation Works competence would need to safeguard historic access Lyme Regis Coast Protections South West West Dorset Works Phase 4 District Council rights and the benefits of relative stability in member Great Yarmouth - Lifeboat Anglian EA states’ shares of fishing opportunities, including rights Portsea Island - Flood Cell 1: Southern Portsmouth City that UK fishers currently benefit from in other member Southsea - Development Council states’ territorial waters. Humber: Swinefleet North East EA Portsea Island - Flood Cell 4: Southern Portsmouth City Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for North Portsea Island - Council Development Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her Greatham North North East EA priorities are for the forthcoming negotiations on the Walberswick to Dunwich Anglian EA review of the Common Fisheries Policy. [3529] Frontage Canvey Gravity Sluices (Works) Anglian EA Richard Benyon: We are developing the UK’s negotiating Bulverhythe Capital Southern EA priorities for reform of the common fisheries policy Maintenance 2007/08 - 2011/12 (CFP). We are clear that any reform should: Sandwich and Deal PAR Southern EA Preparation Devolve fisheries management away from current centralised control over detailed regulations, for example through regionalisation. Minsmere Flood Management Anglian EA Project We support the EU Commission’s general direction in this area and will be pressing to ensure the result is a decentralised and PETT Shingle Renourishment Southern EA PH2-6 simpler decision-making process. Shorehamadur Tidal Walls West Southern EA Enable and encourage fishermen to better plan for their businesses Bank for the long-term, giving them more control, incentives and responsibility for managing fish stocks and helping to tackle over-capacity where it exists. Common Fisheries Policy Integrate fisheries more effectively with management and conservation of marine resources more widely. As pressures and competing demands for use of marine resources grow, it is increasingly Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for important for fisheries management to be joined up with the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether she management of other marine activities. We need flexible mechanisms plans to secure an extension to the competence of UK under a reformed CFP that enable us to meet our international fisheries management within its territorial waters conservation obligations. 265W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 266W

Fisheries: Northern Ireland British Waterways is currently considering its expenditure plans for the next three years which will need to take Ms Ritchie: To ask the Secretary of State for account of the outcome of the government’s forthcoming Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what funding spending review and its estimates of future commercial has been allocated to Northern Ireland from the income. European Fisheries Fund; and how much matched Land Drainage: Finance funding from the Government such allocations have attracted. [3304] Mr Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Richard Benyon: The EU budget for the European she has made of the environmental effects of the recent Fisheries Fund’s programme for 2007-13 is ¤4.3 billion reduction in funding for land drainage maintenance by of which the UK is allocated ¤138m (£120 million). the Environment Agency. [3764] From this allocation, Northern Ireland receives ¤18m (£16 million). Matched funding for Northern Ireland is the Richard Benyon: There has not been any specific devolved responsibility of the Minister of Agriculture reduction in Government funding for land drainage and Rural Development. maintenance. DEFRA provides grant in aid to the Environment Agency for flood and coastal erosion risk Floods: Chesterfield management, which may include land drainage maintenance, where this is the most effective means of reducing flood risk. The Environment Agency considers Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for the environmental effects of its decisions on a case by Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the status case basis when deciding how to get best value for is of each flood remediation project for the River money from DEFRA’s investment. Rother and River Hipper (a) planned, (b) approved and (c) implemented since 2007. [3815] Landfill

Richard Benyon: The Environment Agency is currently Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for taking forward the Avenue Coking Works Remediation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she plans Project, which incorporates a flood storage area. This to publish her response to the consultation on landfill will provide protection from the River Rother to more bans. [3593] than 100 properties and businesses in Chesterfield. Further Richard Benyon: The Consultation on the Introduction schemes to provide protection from the River Rother of Restrictions on the Landfilling of Certain Wastes are being assessed. closed on 10 June 2010. Responses are currently being The Environment Agency has proposed a scheme collated and analysed. The Government will publish a that will provide protection from the River Hipper to response to the consultation in due course. areas of Chesterfield. Subject to funding approval, detailed Future policy on reducing landfill will be considered design for the scheme will begin in 2012-13, with in the context of the Government’s recently announced construction planned to begin the following year. review of waste policy in England. Inland Waterways: Repairs and Maintenance National Parks: Finance Mr Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what budgetary allocations she has made to each national expenditure British Waterways has incurred on park for (a) 2010-11 and (b) 2011-12. [3147] maintaining and developing waterway network infrastructure in each of the last 10 years; what Richard Benyon: Savings to DEFRA’s 2010-11 budgets proportion of such expenditure was on infrastructure totalling £162 million were recently announced. The not classified as a principal asset in each such year; revised allocations for each of the national park authorities what estimate she has made of such expenditure in are as follows: each of the next three years; and if she will make a statement. [3316] £ Broads Authority 4,229,502 Richard Benyon: British Waterways does not record Dartmoor 4,739,642 information in the format requested. Exmoor 3,978,580 British Waterways has spent £334 million on major Lake District 7,171,279 infrastructure works and dredging over the last 10 years, New Forest 6,028,096 of which £218 million (65%) relates to work on what Northumberland 3,311,334 they classify as “principal assets”. In addition British North York Moors 5,428,266 Waterways has spent £347 million on third party funded Peak District 8,298,814 restoration and regeneration projects. South Downs 7,290,000 The analysis of the expenditure over the last ten years Yorkshire Dales 5,398,563 which is derived from their published annual report and Total 55,874,076 accounts is appended. It has only been since 2006-07 Note: The allocation for the Lake District includes £250,000 for repairs to the rights of that BW have sub-analysed other operating expenditure way network caused by flooding, and £1,800,000 for refurbishment of office further to disclose how much is spent directly on waterway accommodation for the New Forest National Park Authority. network general maintenance and customer service The allocations for 2011-12 will be announced later activities. The analysis by year is also provided. this year. 267W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 268W

Set-aside Schemes Mr O’Brien: The Adaptation Fund finances climate adaptation projects that benefit vulnerable communities Mr Spencer: To ask the Secretary of State for and are proposed by developing countries. The Board’s Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent criteria specify that projects should clearly meet the discussions she has had on the objectives of the needs of vulnerable communities but do not prioritise Campaign for the Farmed Environment; and if she will one Millennium Development Goal above the others. make a statement. [3063] Some proposals include access to safe drinking water and basic sanitation and hygiene. Others cover issues Mr Paice: The Government remain strongly committed such as food security, health and disaster risk reduction. to the Campaign for the Farmed Environment, which The Adaptation Fund Board considers proposals on we consider an excellent example of the farming industry their merit on a case by case basis. taking responsibility for its environmental impacts. The In “The Coalition: our programme for government”, Secretary of State and I met a number of senior the Government highlighted their commitment to clean representatives of the campaign’s partner organisations water and sanitation, stating that we will prioritise aid at the recent cereals show, and look forward to receiving spending to ensure everyone has access to these and the campaign’s other services, and will particularly focus on the rights Progress Report later this month. of women, children and people with disabilities. Waste Disposal Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for is taking to achieve the sanitation targets defined in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the United Nations Millennium Development Goals. timetable is for the forthcoming survey on industrial [3157] and commercial waste. [3592] Mr O’Brien: In “The Coalition: our programme for Richard Benyon: The project was initiated in February government”, the Government highlighted their 2010 and fieldwork began in early June 2010. The commitment to clean water and sanitation, stating that fieldwork phase is due to complete at the end of October we will prioritise aid spending to ensure everyone has 2010. DEFRA is expecting to receive and publish access to these and other services, and will particularly provisional results by mid October 2010, with the final focus on the rights of women, children and people with outputs (i.e. detailed analysis, final report, and final disabilities. anonymised dataset) due in early December 2010. In the coming months DFID will be reviewing its aid programme to determine how we can achieve better value for money for the taxpayer and accelerate progress INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT towards the MDGs, including the target on clean water and sanitation. Departmental Pay Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what proportion of his International Development pursuant to the answer of Department’s budget for 2010-11 has been allocated for 7 June 2010, Official Report, column 53W, on the purpose of meeting the Millennium Development departmental manpower, what the salary range is of Goal target of providing safe drinking water in staff employed at each grade in the private office of sub-Saharan Africa. [3158] each Minister in his Department. [3254] Mr O’Brien: In “The Coalition: our programme for government”, the Government highlighted their Mr Duncan: Details of the salary range for full-time commitment to clean water and sanitation, stating that staff at each civil service grade employed at the Department we will prioritise aid spending to ensure everyone has for International Development (DFID) are provided in access to these and other services, and will particularly the following table. focus on the rights of women, children and people with disabilities. Equivalent traditional civil DFID grade service grade Pay range (London scale) Under the previous Government 2.7% of the Department for International Development (DFID) budget was C1 AO £22,530 allocated to improving water and sanitation in Sub-Saharan B2 EO £25,029-£27,317 Africa in 2010-11. B1 HEO £30,868-£34,534 B1(D) Fast Stream £30,403-£36,377 In the coming months DFID will be reviewing its aid A2 G7 £47,555-£56,293 programmes to determine how we can achieve better A1 G6 £58,120-£68,221 value for money for the taxpayer and accelerate growth Deputy Director G5 £58,200-£117,750 towards the MDGs. Aid spending to improve access to clean water and sanitation in Sub-Saharan Africa will International Assistance: Water be reviewed as part of this process. Kyrgyzstan: Internally Displaced People Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if he will urge the Glenda Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Adaptation Fund Board to prioritise those projects International Development what steps his Department committed to providing sustainable access to safe is taking to assist Uzbeki people displaced by the recent drinking water and basic sanitation and hygiene in line violence in Kyrgyzstan; and if he will make a with Millennium Development Goal 7. [3156] statement. [3619] 269W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 270W

Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International www.enemyproperty.gov.uk Development (DFID) is monitoring the situation in www.theredferninquiry.co.uk Kyrgyzstan closely. We are in regular contact with the www.shareholderexecutive.gov.uk United Nations and the International Committee of www.sustainable-construction.org.uk the Red Cross locally and at HQ level. The UK provides www.aebc.gov.uk core funding to these and many other international humanitarian agencies. www.certoffice.org www.foresight.gov.uk Kyrgyzstan: Politics and Government www.ecochecker.co.uk Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for www.spire.bis.gov.uk International Development what recent assessment he http://interactive.bis.gov.uk/backingyoungbritain has made of the humanitarian situation in the Kyrgyz http://poit.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/poit Republic. [3844] www.independent.gov.uk/hereview www.independent.gov.uk/regulatorypolicycommittee Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Department for International Development (DFID) is monitoring the situation in www.interactive.bis.gov.uk/companycharges Kyrgyzstan closely. We are in regular contact with the http://interactive.dius.gov.uk/nms/ United Nations and the International Committee of http://archive.bis.gov.uk/ the Red Cross locally and at HQ level. As of 18 June, www.teachusalesson.com the United Nations estimates that 191 people are dead www.interactive.bis.gov.uk/scienceandsociety and 400,000 people have been displaced. The Office for www.nationalstudentforum.com the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs has estimated www.whogetsthetip.com that 100,000 refugees have crossed the border to Uzbekistan. The following websites managed by BIS are shortly Palestinians: International Assistance to be closed, with content to be moved to: www.bis.gov.uk Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what steps his Department www.interactive.bis.gov.uk/digitalbritain is taking to ensure that aid which it sends to Gaza www.interactive.bis.gov.uk/lowcarbon reaches those who need it; and if he will make a www.interactive.bis.gov.uk/unleashingaspiration statement. [3488] www.interactive.bis.gov.uk/nano Mr Duncan: The UK does not send aid directly to www.interactive.bis.gov.uk/advancedmanufacturing Gaza. However, we do fund the UN Relief and Works (b) URLs for websites managed by the Department’s Agency (UNRWA) which provides basic services to NDPBs and agencies This list of sites is drawn from the Gazan refugees such as education, health care and food centrally-managed Government Website Database. To aid. contact each NDPB to provide this information would Due to restrictions on access UNRWA and other aid incur disproportionate costs. organisations have found it difficult to import into The Department’s Executive Agencies (Companies Gaza all the items they need to carry out their work House, the Insolvency Service, the Intellectual Property effectively. DFID is therefore funding a United Nations Office, the National Measurement Office and the Skills team to work with the Government of Israel and aid Funding Agency) will reply separately. agencies to facilitate the transfer of goods into Gaza. Advisory NDPBs: The announcement by the Government of Israel of Council for Science and Technology an easing of restrictions, including a move from a list of permitted items to a list of banned goods, is a step in www.cst.gov.uk the right direction. We will continue to press the Low Pay Commission (LPC) Government of Israel to ensure they deliver on their www.lowpay.gov.uk commitments. Strategic Advisory Board for Intellectual Property (SABIP) www.sabip.org.uk BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Executive NDPBs: Advantage West Midlands (RDA) Departmental Internet www.advantagewm.co.uk Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Advisory Conciliation and Arbitration Service (ACAS) Business, Innovation and Skills what the URL is of www.acas.org.uk each website managed by (a) his Department and (b) Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC) each non-departmental public body and agency for which his Department is responsible. [2360] www.ahrc.ac.uk Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council Mr Davey: The information requested is as follows. (BBSRC) (a) URLs of websites managed directly by the www.bbsrc.ac.uk Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) are: British Hallmarking Council (BHC) www.bis.gov.uk www.britishhallmarkingcouncil.gov.uk www.ecommerce-awards.co.uk Capital for Enterprise (CfEL) www.dtistats.net www.capitalforenterprise.gov.uk 271W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 272W

Competition Commission Simpler Trade Procedures Board (SITPRO) www.competition-commission.org.uk www.sitpro.org.uk Construction Industry Training Board (CITB) Simpler Trade Procedures Board (SITPRO) www.cskills.org.uk www.unedocsuk.co.uk Consumer Focus South East England Development Agency (SEEDA) www.consumerfocus.org.uk www.seeda.co.uk Design Council South West of England Regional Development Agency www.designcouncil.org.uk www.southwestrda.org.uk East Midlands Development Agency (EMDA) Student Loans Company (SLC) www.emda.org.uk www.studentloans.gov.uk East of England Development Agency (EEDA) Student Loans Company (SLC) www.eeda.org.uk www.slc.co.uk Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) Student Loans Company (SLC) www.esrc.ac.uk www.studentloanrepayment.co.uk Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council Technology Strategy Board (TSB) (EPSRC) www.ktponline.org.uk/ www.epsrc.ac.uk Technology Strategy Board (TSB) Engineering Construction Industry Training Board (ECITB) www.innovateuk.org www.ecitb.org.uk Commission for Employment and Skills (UKCES) Hearing Aid Council (HAC) www.ukces.org.uk www.thehearingaidcouncil.org.uk Yorkshire Forward (RDA) Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) www.yorkshire-forward.com www.findfoundationdegree.co.uk Tribunal NDPBs: Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) Central Arbitration Committee (CAC) www.fdf.ac.uk www.cac.gov.uk Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) Competition Appeal Tribunal (CAT) www.hethatworks.co.uk www.catribunal.org.uk Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) Letter from Geoff Russell, dated 18 June 2010: www.hefce.ac.uk I am replying on behalf of the Skills Funding Agency to your Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) Parliamentary Question tabled on 9 June (UIN 2360), to the www.jisc.ac.uk Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, concerning the URLs of the websites managed by the Department and its Investors in People UK (now part of UK CES) agencies. www.investorsinpeople.co.uk The Skills Funding Agency was set up as an agency of the Local Better Regulation Office (LBRO) Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on 01 April 2010. As a new agency, we are working with the Department to get our www.lbro.org.uk new websites listed on the Government Website Database: London Development Agency (LDA) www.skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk www.lda.gov.uk http://iagreview.org.uk Medical Research Council (MRC) http://engage.traintogain.gov.uk www.mrc.ac.uk www.theia.org.uk National Endowment for Science, Technology and the www.escs-isb.org.uk Arts (NESTA) www.thedataservice.org.uk www.nesta.org.uk We are also working with the Department to converge or close Natural Environment Research Council (NERC) the following websites for which we have been responsible and which are currently listed on the Government Website Database: www.nerc.ac.uk http://www.trainingqualitystandard.co.uk North West Development Agency (NWDA) www.advice-resources.co.uk www.nwda.co.uk http://www.nextstepstakeholder.co.uk North West Development Agency (NWDA) www.miap.gov.uk www.nwdabusinessfinance.co.uk soon to become: Office for Fair Access (OFFA) www.learningrecordsservice.org.uk www.offa.org.uk http://www.learnerpanel.co.uk One North East (RDA) http://www.careervaluestool.com www.onenortheast.co.uk www.apprenticeships.org.uk Regional Development Agencies (RDAs) www.nationalskillsacademy.co.uk www.englandsrdas.com www.traintogain.gov.uk Research Councils UK (RCUK) http://nationalemployerservice.org.uk www.rcuk.ac.uk www.safelearner.info 273W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 274W

http://ukrip.co.uk Mr Davey: My hon. Friend the Secretary of State http://nln.ac.uk/ wrote to all partner organisations associated with his http://ukonlinecentres.com/ Department, including Companies House, on 26 May setting out expectations around cost savings to be made Letter from Peter Mason, dated 18 June 2010: in the financial year 2010-11. A copy will be placed in I am responding in respect of the National Measurement the Libraries of the House. Office to your Parliamentary Question tabled on 9 June to the Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and The 2010 Spending Review framework published by Skills, asking for the URLs of each website managed by the HM Treasury on 8 June also provides details on the Department and the non-departmental public bodies and agencies process and guiding principles that will underpin the for which it is responsible. Government’s approach to setting spending limits over The URLs for each of the websites managed by the National the Spending Review period. A copy of the framework Measurement Office are: is available on the HM Treasury website. www.nmo.bis.gov.uk www.rohs.gov.uk/ www.rohs.gov.uk/batteries/ Departmental Pay www.rohs.gov.uk/EUP/ www.rohs.gov.uk/energylabelling/ Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much was paid in Letter from Gareth Jones: bonuses to civil servants in his Department in 2009-10. I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary [2181] Question tabled 9 June 2010, UIN 2360 to the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. The URL for Companies House’s website is: Mr Davey: An element of the BIS overall pay award for staff below the SCS is allocated to non-consolidated www.companieshouse.gov.uk variable pay related to performance. These payments Letter from John Alty, dated 11 June 2010: are used to drive high performance and form part of the I am responding in respect of the Intellectual Property Office pay award. There are two types of award: to your Parliamentary Question tabled 09 June 2010, to the 1. In-year payments, which consist of special individual Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and performance awards and non-pay rewards that recognise strong Skills. performance in particularly demanding tasks or situations. The URL of websites managed by the Intellectual Property 2. Annual performance awards that are paid to members of Office are: staff who receive a highly successful performance rating. 1) Intellectual Property Office Non-consolidated variable pay awards are funded http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ from within existing pay bill controls, and have to be There are three sub sites linked to this website which carry re-earned each year against pre-determined targets and, their own identity: as such, do not add to future pay bill costs. The Company Names Tribunal Performance awards for the SCS are part of the pay http://www.ipo.gov.uk/cna.htm system across the whole senior civil service, and are The Copyright Tribunal used to reward high performance sustained throughout http://www.ipo.gov.uk/ctribunal.htm the year, based on judgments of how well an individual and Intangible Assets Network has performed relative to their peers. The performance related pay scheme is designed to help drive high www.ipo.gov.uk/ian performance and support better public service delivery. 2) Strategic Board for Intellectual Property Policy Performance awards are non-consolidated and non http://www.sabip.org.uk/ pensionable. The percentage of the pay bill set aside for 3) Cracking Ideas performance-related awards for the SCS is based on http://www.crackingideas.com recommendations from the independent Senior Salaries Review Body. For the year 2009-10 the Senior Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 10 June 2010: Salaries Review Body has confirmed that up to 8.6% of The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation the BIS SCS pay bill may be used for non-consolidated and Skills has asked me to reply to your question, what the URL performance awards for the SCS. No payments have yet is of each website managed by (a) his Department and (b) each non-departmental public body and agency for which his Department been made, but BIS does not intend to use the full is responsible. amount available. The Insolvency Service is an executive agency of the Department BIS was formed through a machinery of government for Business, Innovation and Skills. The Insolvency Service directly change that occurred in June 2009. The Department manages a website which uses the following URL: was created by merging the Department for Business www.insolvency.gov.uk Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) and the Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills (DIUS). Departmental NDPBs The following information provides combined details for the performance payments made to staff below the SCS from each of the former Departments. Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what guidance he has Amount spent on performance issued to (a) Companies House and (b) other awards (£) executive agencies on the identification of areas in 2009-10 1,764,834 which budgetary savings may be made. [3182] 275W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 276W

Departmental Reviews Mr Prisk: The Department allocates budgets to Regional Development Agencies. The agencies determine which Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for projects to support, subject to the terms of the Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer accountability and financial framework and their delegated of 8 June 2010, Official Report, column 137W, on financial authorities. RDAs’ investments have been guided Government Departments: reviews, what reviews his by the regional economic strategy and their corporate Department is undertaking; and what the (a) purpose plans. The Department does not hold details of individual and (b) timescale of each is. [2589] projects supported by the RDAs within their delegated financial authorities. Vince Cable: The coalition agreement sets out in detail the Government’s future plans, including the key Post Office: ICT reviews it will be undertaking. My Department will bring forward detailed information about these reviews Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for in due course. Business, Innovation and Skills how many times Ministers in his Department had discussions with Post Graduates: Employment Schemes Office Ltd on the Horizon system in the last five years. [3750] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to Mr Davey: The Horizon system is an operational maintain the previous Government’s policy of a responsibility of the company and I have had no such Graduate Guarantee. [738] discussions. It is an established convention that Minsters of one Administration cannot see the documents of a Chris Grayling: I have been asked to reply. previous Administration. I am therefore unable to provide The Graduate Guarantee was introduced by the previous the information requested. Administration as a temporary measure, for 2009 graduates who reach six months unemployment. Post Offices This Government are committed to providing targeted support and will be introducing a single, integrated Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for work programme to deliver personalised support for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) if he will require the unemployed, including appropriate graduates. Until Post Office Ltd to publish the methodology it uses to this is introduced, we will ensure that unemployed calculate whether a post office reinstatement would graduates receive the support they need. have a negative effect on the remaining network in that area; [3678] Higher Education (2) which post offices have been re-opened under the Post Office Ltd Local Funding Guidance; [3679] Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which higher education (3) what plans Post Office Ltd has to open new post institutions (a) he and (b) the Minister of State for offices in urban areas; and what criteria it will use in Universities visited in May 2010. [2954] determining the viability of a business case for opening such a post office. [3680] Mr Willetts: In May 2010, I visited the University of Birmingham. Mr Davey: I have asked David Smith, the Managing Director of Post Office Ltd, to respond directly to the Insolvency: Witham hon. Member and a copy of his reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many small and Post Offices: Witham medium-sized businesses in Witham constituency were declared insolvent in each year since 1997. [3747] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many Post Mr Davey: Official statistics covering corporate Office branches there were in Witham constituency in insolvencies for England and Wales are not currently each year since 1997; [3746] available at sub-national level, or differentiated by firm (2) if he will (a) review and (b) report to the House size. on the effectiveness of the Post Office’s Horizon Corporate and personal insolvency statistics are published system. [3751] quarterly as a National Statistics press release by the Insolvency Service; they are available at: Mr Davey: I have asked David Smith, the managing http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/otherinformation/statistics/ director of Post Office Ltd, to respond directly to my insolv.htm hon. Friend and a copy of his reply will be placed in the Latest headline figures currently are those for Quarter 1 Libraries of the House. 2010; Q2 2010 will be available from 6 August 2010. Unemployment: Young People One NorthEast: Hartlepool Damian Collins: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many 16 to 24 year Business, Innovation and Skills which projects in olds were not in education, employment or training in Hartlepool constituency received funding from One the Shepway district council area in each year since NorthEast in each of the last five years. [3454] 1997. [3824] 277W Written Answers23 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 278W

Mr Hayes: The following table provides estimates of People aged 16-24 years old not in employment, education or training (NEET) the number and proportion of people aged1 16 to 24 not in Kent local education authority Percentage 95% confidence in education employment or training (NEET) in Kent Number NEET NEET interval (pp) local education authority. This information is from the Annual Population Survey and covers the period 2000 2006 23,000 16 +/-4 to 2008, with 2008 being the most recent estimate 2007 24,000 17 +/-4 available. 2008 25,000 17 +/-4 We are unable to produce NEET estimates for 16 to All of the estimates provided are subject to sampling 24-year-olds at district council level due to sample sizes variability and should therefore be treated with caution being insufficiently large. Due to incomplete data, estimates and viewed in conjunction with their confidence intervals2 are not available prior to 2000. (CIs), which indicate how accurate an estimate is. For People aged 16-24 years old not in employment, education or training (NEET) example, a CI of +/-4 percentage points (pp) means that in Kent local education authority the true value is between 4pp above the estimate and Percentage 95% confidence Number NEET NEET interval (pp) 4pp below the estimate. The Department for Education (DfE) is responsible 2000 13,000 11 +/-3 for policy covering NEETs aged 16-18 years old and 2001 17,000 14 +/-3 therefore this answer from BIS is partially on behalf of 2002 18,000 13 +/-3 DfE. 2003 18,000 15 +/-4 1 Age used is respondents academic age, which is defined as their 2004 16,000 12 +/-2 age at the preceding 31 August. 2005 19,000 13 +/-2 2 Those given are 95% confidence intervals. ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 23 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 284 WALES—continued Afghanistan (Military Patrols) ...... 292 Cabinet Committees...... 281 Engagements...... 284 Defence Technical College ...... 283 Engagements...... 293 Independent Commission on Funding and Finance for Wales ...... 278 WALES...... 275 Manufacturing Industry...... 282 Armed Forces Day...... 279 National Assembly for Wales ...... 276 Business Relocation ...... 275 Public Expenditure...... 283 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 23 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE...... 15WS TREASURY ...... 15WS HM Courts Service Estate...... 15WS IMF (New Arrangements to Borrow) ...... 15WS Legal Aid Reform ...... 16WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 23 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 269W DEFENCE—continued Departmental Internet ...... 269W Armed Forces: Per Capita Costs ...... 233W Departmental NDPBs...... 273W Atomic Weapons Establishment...... 234W Departmental Pay ...... 274W Colombia: Military Aid ...... 234W Departmental Reviews ...... 275W Defence...... 234W Graduates: Employment Schemes...... 275W Departmental Manpower...... 234W Higher Education...... 275W Iran: Sanctions...... 235W Insolvency: Witham ...... 275W Military Aircraft ...... 235W One NorthEast: Hartlepool ...... 275W Nuclear Weapons...... 235W Post Office: ICT ...... 276W RAF Kinloss...... 236W Post Offices ...... 276W Trident ...... 236W Post Offices: Witham ...... 276W Warships ...... 236W Unemployment: Young People...... 276W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 211W EDUCATION...... 237W Council Housing: Bolton...... 211W Academies...... 237W Council Housing: Construction ...... 211W Carers: Children...... 238W Councillors: Pay...... 211W Departmental Manpower...... 237W Departmental Official Cars...... 212W Departmental Reorganisation...... 237W Housing: Construction...... 212W Local Government Finance ...... 212W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 248W Planning Permission ...... 212W Departmental Pay ...... 248W Social Rented Housing: Standards...... 213W Radioactive Waste: Waste Management...... 249W Standards Board for England ...... 213W Subsidence: Ironbridge Gorge...... 213W Wind Power: Planning Permission ...... 214W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Working Neighbourhoods Fund ...... 214W AFFAIRS...... 259W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 259W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 241W Animal Health: Expenditure ...... 260W Arts Council England ...... 241W Cereals ...... 261W Listed Events Review ...... 241W Coastal Areas: Environment Protection...... 262W Olympic Games 2012: Construction ...... 241W Common Fisheries Policy ...... 263W Olympic Games 2012: Facilities ...... 242W Fisheries: Northern Ireland...... 265W Olympic Games 2012: Tickets...... 242W Floods: Chesterfield...... 265W Inland Waterways: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 265W DEFENCE...... 232W Land Drainage: Finance ...... 266W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 232W Landfill ...... 266W Animal Experiments ...... 232W National Parks: Finance ...... 266W Armed Forces ...... 231W Set-aside Schemes ...... 267W Armed Forces: Mental Health Services...... 233W Waste Disposal ...... 267W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 217W JUSTICE—continued Algeria: Foreign Relations ...... 217W Prisons: Drugs ...... 219W Aung San Suu Kyi...... 217W Prisons: Religion ...... 220W Colombia: Political Prisoners...... 218W Departmental Reviews ...... 218W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 218W Departmental Pay ...... 218W HEALTH...... 250W State Retirement Pensions...... 219W Antidepressants ...... 250W Terrorism ...... 219W Breast Cancer: Screening...... 251W Dementia: Drugs...... 251W SCOTLAND...... 220W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 252W Departmental Pay ...... 220W Electronic Government ...... 253W Gender Recognition: Health Services...... 254W TRANSPORT ...... 243W Muscular Dystrophy and Cystic Fibrosis: A5: M1...... 243W Research ...... 254W Arriva: Finance...... 244W NHS: Finance ...... 255W Bus Services ...... 244W North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Departmental Public Expenditure...... 244W Trust ...... 255W Government Car and Despatch Agency...... 245W Prescriptions ...... 256W Motorcycles: Driving Tests ...... 245W Strokes: Health Services...... 257W Network Rail ...... 246W Private Roads...... 246W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 221W Railways: West Yorkshire and Greater Alcoholic Drinks: Crime...... 221W Manchester ...... 246W Children...... 221W River Mersey: Bridges...... 246W Closed Circuit Television ...... 221W Rolling Stock: Procurement ...... 247W Demonstrations: Barking...... 221W Runcorn-Widnes Road Bridge ...... 247W Departmental Manpower ...... 222W Southeastern: Finance...... 248W Departmental Official Cars ...... 222W Woodhead Tunnel...... 248W DNA: Databases...... 222W Drugs and Alcoholic Drinks: Crime...... 223W TREASURY ...... 238W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 224W Debts: Interest Charges...... 238W Identity Cards ...... 227W Northern Rock...... 238W Immigration: Appeals ...... 227W Taxation: Aviation ...... 239W Police: Chauffeur-driven Cars ...... 228W WALES...... 214W Police: Elections ...... 228W Business Relocation ...... 214W Police: Finance...... 229W Child Trust Fund ...... 215W Public Expenditure: Wales ...... 229W Companies House: Nantgarw ...... 215W Sexual Offences: Registration...... 230W Departmental Buildings...... 215W UK Border Agency ...... 230W Departmental furniture...... 216W War Crimes: Universal Jurisdiction...... 231W Departmental Pay ...... 216W Wickham Research Laboratories: Animal Departmental Public Expenditure...... 216W Experiments...... 231W Devolution...... 217W Economic Situation...... 217W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 267W National Assembly for Wales ...... 215W Departmental Pay ...... 267W RAF St Athan ...... 217W International Assistance: Water ...... 267W Kyrgyzstan: Internally Displaced People...... 268W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 239W Kyrgyzstan: Politics and Government ...... 269W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 239W Palestinians: International Assistance ...... 269W Employment ...... 239W Employment Schemes: Homelessness...... 240W JUSTICE...... 219W Employment: Young People...... 240W Marriage: Homosexuality ...... 219W Jobseekers Allowance: Young People ...... 240W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 30 June 2010

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index: Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 512 Wednesday No. 20 23 June 2010

CONTENTS

Wednesday 23 June 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 275] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Wales Prime Minister

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation [Col. 298] Debate (Second day) Debate adjourned

Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority [Col. 398] Motion—(Mr Heath)—agreed to

Petitions [Col. 399]

Finsbury Health Centre [Col. 401] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Human Tissue (Availability) [Col. 69WH] New Roads (Hertfordshire) [Col. 93WH] Cumbrian Shootings [Col. 103WH] Tolls (Severn Bridges) [Col. 126WH] Accident and Emergency (Westmorland General Hospital) [Col. 135WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 15WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 211W] [see index inside back page]