Wednesday Volume 511 9 June 2010 No. 12

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 9 June 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 313 9 JUNE 2010 314

business organisations, to work out with them in respect House of Commons of each RDA the best way forward. I suspect that he and I have the same sort of concerns about the way in Wednesday 9 June 2010 which SEEDA has operated.

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Chris Skidmore: While the excellent Frenchay hospital near my constituency was downgraded by the previous Government despite a 50,000-strong petition of local PRAYERS residents opposing the move, it was reported last year that the salaries of NHS quango bosses have increased [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] by up to 77% in the past three years. Does the Minister agree that this Government’s commitment to transparency and accountability will help to reduce that sort of cost to the taxpayer and will help to protect NHS front-line Oral Answers to Questions services?

Mr Maude: First, I congratulate my hon. Friend on CABINET OFFICE the very vigorous campaign that he has fought and continues to fight in the interests of his constituents to The Minister for the Cabinet Office was asked— protect the work of the Frenchay hospital. I have visited the hospital and I know what good work it does. He is Non-departmental Public Bodies absolutely right that transparency is the friend of the citizen in exposing what the state spends its money on. 1 Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con): What It will enable communities, individuals and organisations mechanism he plans to use to review the effectiveness to exercise and enforce much greater accountability. of non-departmental public bodies. [1341] Money is going to be increasingly scarce in the years ahead, thanks to what we inherited from the Labour 4. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What party, and it is going to be increasingly important that it mechanisms he plans to use to review the effectiveness is spent where it is needed, at the front line, on patients of non-departmental public bodies. [1344] and on parents whose children are at school. 9. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): What mechanisms he plans to use to review the effectiveness Andrew Stephenson: I thank my right hon. Friend for of non-departmental public bodies. [1349] those reassurances. Will he tell us what we are going to do to stop the proliferation of more and more quangos, 10. Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con): What as happened under the previous Government? mechanisms he plans to use to review the effectiveness of non-departmental public bodies. [1350] Mr Maude: In addition to applying rigorously to existing public bodies and quangos the three tests that The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster we have set out, we will ensure that public bodies do not General (Mr Francis Maude): We are committed to come into existence unless they are absolutely necessary cutting the number of public bodies to increase to meet one of those three tests. Bodies that spend accountability and cut costs. In future, each public body public money and deliberate on policy should in general will have to meet one of three tests—does it perform a be accountable, through Ministers, to Parliament. That technical function, does it need to be politically impartial is a basic principle, and that is what we will enforce in or does it act independently to establish facts? The future. Prime Minister has written to Cabinet colleagues asking them to apply those tests rigorously to the public bodies within their area of responsibility. I will be meeting Mr Amess: As someone who has long been concerned colleagues in the coming weeks to take the review about unelected, unaccountable quangos, would my forward, and I expect to publish the outcome in the right hon. Friend care to comment on mechanisms that autumn with a view to introducing a public bodies Bill deal specifically with quangos in Essex? Would he welcome later this year. representations from me and other Essex colleagues?

Simon Kirby: I thank my right hon. Friend for his Mr Maude: I would indeed. I expect those representations answer, and I welcome him to the Dispatch Box. Given to be vigorous and forthright and I look forward to the Government’s clear policy on localism, will he ensure receiving them. that the regional development agency quango, SEEDA—the South East England Development Agency—is rapidly dismantled and that its powers and decisions are handed Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): Many public bodies, back to the local authorities to which those powers have such as the RDAs the Minister mentioned, but also the always properly belonged? Bank of England, the BBC, the Judicial Appointments Commission and parliamentary boundary commissions, Mr Maude: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his are independent of Government precisely because they kind remarks. It is very good to see him here. He is a have to be independent of Government. Will the Minister close neighbour in Sussex and he makes a very good give the House a commitment that this will not just be a point. The Government will engage in discussions with centralising exercise whereby bodies that ought to be local partners, including local authorities and local independent are taken under direct control by Ministers? 315 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 316

Mr Maude: I am disinclined to take lectures about Kelvin Hopkins: I thank the Minister for his answer. centralising tendencies from someone who was a Minister The British constitution has sometimes been characterised in the last Government. I simply refer the hon. Gentleman as a time-limited elective dictatorship and the Prime to what I said. The tests that we will apply to quangos—to Minister as an elected monarch. In an era of sofa public bodies—will be rigorous and serious. If there is government, the Cabinet was downgraded to cipher an overwhelming requirement for them to be independent status. Is it not time for really radical change—perhaps politically, that will be one of the tests, but the presumption with the Cabinet elected by Members of Parliament? will be that public functions should be exercised by organisations accountable to Parliament. Mr Letwin: The trend towards elections is indeed one that the Government have in general sponsored, as the hon. Gentleman is well aware. Many Members have put Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): May I themselves forward and are in the course of being welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his post? He may elected for many important posts in the House. But the be aware that I chair the Westminster Foundation for reality of Cabinet government does not depend on Democracy, a non-departmental public body that has elections, it depends on whether the Prime Minister of enjoyed cross-party support for its whole existence. Can the day and, indeed, in the coalition Government, the he clarify the processes that are taking place? The Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister of the day Westminster Foundation for Democracy is already under are willing to see collegiate decision making rather than a process of review as one of the arm’s length bodies elective dictatorship. They are not only in this instance independent from the Foreign Office. How does that willing, but keen to do so. If I may point it out to the mix with the process he has set out today? hon. Gentleman, one of the advantages of the new politics of coalition Government is that it enforces on Mr Maude: I hope they will seamlessly meld together. us collective decision making, because we have to agree I am not conscious of the particular review to which the between the two parties in the coalition as well. hon. Lady refers, but this review will cover all public bodies that come under the responsibility of all Mr Speaker: Order. I do not wish to be unkind to new Departments. I am confident that in my discussions Ministers, but answers are, frankly, too long. They need about the review with the Foreign Secretary the Westminster to get shorter. Foundation will be considered in a proper way. Voluntary Organisations Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): I welcome 3. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What assessment the Minister to his responsibilities. If he has a bonfire of he has made of the effects on voluntary organisations the quangos, there are one or two I might add. There is of the Government’s regulatory and administrative one where newly appointed staff are increasing, its requirements. [1343] executives earn more than Ministers and MPs, and are The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick appointing press officers and consultants, yet they do Hurd): One of our priorities is to make it easier to run a not even answer the telephone. Would the Minister be voluntary organisation, so we are committed to clearing surprised and would he care to name that quango? the thicket of bureaucracy that too often gets in the way Might it be the Independent Parliamentary Standards of doing good and to setting up a joint task force with Authority? the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to look at how we can reduce red tape for small organisations. Mr Maude: These are deep waters and I prefer not to venture into that particular one at this stage, but I am Fiona Bruce: The requirements for people to obtain absolutely confident that the right hon. Gentleman will more than one Criminal Records Bureau check when make his views known in his characteristically forthright working or volunteering with different community manner. organisations is causing much duplication and expense, both to individuals and to community groups such as Crossroads Care Cheshire East in my constituency. Will Cabinet Government the Minister consider reviewing the CRB check procedure and introducing one single registerable and transferrable 2. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): If he will check for each individual? discuss with Ministerial colleagues proposals to Mr Hurd: I welcome my hon. Friend to the House strengthen Cabinet government. [1342] and wish her every success in following in some quite formidable footsteps. The point she makes is extremely The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver important and that frustration has been expressed to Letwin): First, I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman, who me by a number of voluntary organisations. I hope that in marked contrast to the previous Prime Minister and she will be pleased to know that, in the coalition agreement, his predecessor, long campaigned for Cabinet government the Government are committed to reviewing the criminal to become a reality. I am delighted to tell him that I do records and vetting and barring regime and I will make not have to answer his question in the future; I can sure that the relevant Minister in the Home Office is answer in the present, because in the last three weeks we aware of her concerns. She and I will be following that have already taken enormous strides to create proper review very closely. Cabinet government through the formation of a small number of effective decision-making Cabinet committees Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): I that will look across the whole range of Government welcome the hon. Gentleman to his new and important business, make decisions collectively and not resort to role. Given statements made in recent days by the Prime the kind of sofa government that caused so many Minister and others about deep and early cuts in public problems, for example, in the entry to the Iraq war. spending at the same time as statements about an 317 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 318 extended role for voluntary organisations in the delivery Mr Hurd: I think that I had finished, Mr Speaker. If of public services, I am sure that, as the Minister for the the college would welcome a ministerial visit I will be voluntary sector, he will want to move swiftly to reassure happy to fit that in. anyone who thinks that there is any suggestion that this means that the Government want to get public services Pay Rates (Civil Service) on the cheap. He will want to rebut that suggestion very swiftly. Therefore, will he confirm to Members on both 6. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): If sides of the House who value greatly the work of he will bring forward proposals to equalise rates of pay voluntary organisations that he and other Ministers will between staff in the civil service and in non- uphold the compact with voluntary organisations and, departmental public bodies. [1346] in particular, the commitment to three-year funding as a minimum and to full recovery of costs for volunteering? The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude): For the grades below the Mr Speaker: Again, I am afraid that that question senior civil service, these matters are delegated to individual was a little on the long side. I know that the answer will departments and to non-departmental public bodies. not be. Nevertheless, we will seek to improve and modernise civil service pay arrangements to ensure that they are Mr Hurd: The hon. Gentleman makes an important fair and transparent, to enable us to retain and motivate point, but it is a bit rich coming from a member of a staff and to offer best value for money to the taxpayer. Government one of whose last acts involved the breaching of the compact by the then Minister for the third sector. Katy Clark: I thank the Minister for that answer and The compact is an important framework for the relationship welcome him to his position. He will be aware that there between the state and the sector at a very important are 230 separate bargaining units in the civil service time in its development. We want the sector to work and, at the moment, people doing exactly the same job more closely with the state and the compact has an can earn rates of pay that differ by up to 30 per cent., important part to play in making sure that that relationship and more. What will the right hon. Gentleman do to works productively. bring about more equal and fairer pay structures within the civil service so that we have justice and to improve morale? Emergency Planning College Mr Maude: In the absence of any money—and as the 5. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): former Chief Secretary pointed out, there is no money What plans he has to visit the Emergency Planning left—the opportunities to equalise pay in an upwards College at Hawkhills. [1345] direction are pretty limited. We have said that as part of the efficiency and reform group work that we have set in The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick train, we will carry out a review to see how we can Hurd): The emergency planning college is in my hon. simplify civil service pay, but this is a deeply complex Friend’s constituency and does extraordinarily valuable area. work in training people to support this country’s resilience in all types of emergency. I have no current plans to visit Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Can the the college but my hon. Friend is, I am sure, about to tell Minister please give any details of the review into the me why that is a missed opportunity. introduction of the 20 times pay multiple in the public sector?

Miss McIntosh: May I take this opportunity to invite Mr Maude: The terms of reference for Will Hutton’s my hon. Friend, whom I congratulate on his appointment, review are being drawn up and finalised. As my hon. to visit the college? I know that he would be very Friend says, the review will look at the multiple between welcome. Such a visit would act as a morale booster to the best-paid and least-paid employees in the public the college. Will he extend its role and particulars to sector. We are decentralisers and localists, so we will not make sure that we can in future pre-empt tragedies such expect to exercise our writ across the whole of the wider as we have seen in Cumbria and to ensure that all the public sector. We think transparency will play an important emergency services are put through their paces at regular part in driving down the differentials. intervals to prepare for any such incidents in the future? Non-personal Data Mr Hurd: I welcome my hon. Friend back to the House and I thank her for her question. Clearly we need 7. Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): to be proud of the college, which is a national centre of What plans he has to publish non-personal data held excellence and has won awards, including, I believe, a by Government departments. [1347] best in the world award, for its work? I understand that it has been through a recent reorganisation. If it would The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster welcome a ministerial visit, I would be happy to do so. General (Mr Francis Maude): In our first month in [Interruption.] government we have already published a number of key data sets, including the Treasury COINS—combined Mr Speaker: Order. May I remind the Minister that it online information system—database, MRSA and C. is very important to face the House, because otherwise difficile weekly infection rates for each hospital, and Members cannot hear? The Minister can come back to details of the salaries of 172 civil servants who are paid the Dispatch Box. more than the Prime Minister. The letter from my right 319 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 320 hon. Friend the Prime Minister on 29 May set out future income from the loan book to fund our programmes specific commitments to publishing further data on for training community organisers and a new community spending, contracts and the civil service during the rest grants programme. of the year. We will also give the public a right to data so that people can obtain the Government-held data Tessa Jowell: That is precisely the problem: the sets that they want. Futurebuilders programme is an investment fund, with loans made that are then recycled to other organisations. Mr Watson: The right hon. Gentleman is doing a The Government have decided to end the programme great job and I hope he gets the support of my Front-Bench and, therefore, effectively to shut it. Why? team in accelerating the programme of releasing public sector data, but does he accept that the Government Mr Hurd: The programme has run its course, and we cannot be selective about those data? They cannot print have taken a decision on where to recycle the income. 172 civil servants’ salaries without telling me what Andy We think that the future of loan finance delivery is Coulson is paid. through the big society bank, and we want to encourage the traditional banking industry to meet the sector’s Mr Maude: All this will be divulged in due course. If I debt needs. That is the future—not the Futurebuilders may, I should like to pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman. programme, which distorted the market, rather than When he was a Minister in the Cabinet Office, he built it. pursued the agenda of data transparency with admirable vigour, and I suspect he was somewhat frustrated by the Cabinet Committees lack of progress that it was possible for him to make. I look forward to working closely with him as we jointly 11. John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): What recent pursue this agenda in the public interest. assessment he has made of the contribution of Cabinet Committees, Sub-Committees and working groups to Charities (Regulation) the work of his Department. [1351]

8. David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con): What plans he The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Mr Oliver has for the future regulation of charities. [1348] Letwin): I am very conscious of your admonition to be brief, Mr Speaker, so I shall just say to the hon. Gentleman The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick that we have a rather more modest ambition, which is Hurd): The Government are committed to making it not to ask what the Cabinet can do for our Department, easier for people to set up and run charities and to but what our Department can do for the Cabinet. reduce the amount of regulation, monitoring and reporting that has been imposed on the sector. I am meeting the John Mann: I appreciate that the Government have to chair and chief executive of the Charity Commission find something for their official bag carrier to the Prime next week to discuss this further. Minister to do, but will the Minister confirm that for every new Committee and working group established David Tredinnick: I welcome my hon. Friend to his an existing one will be abolished? post. Will he discuss gift aid at that meeting? At present the administrative burden falls largely on the charities Mr Letwin: I am happy to tell the hon. Gentleman and that should be rectified. that I am actually the unofficial bag carrier to the Prime Minister; I do not even qualify as the official one. We Mr Hurd: We know how important gift aid is to the have organised ourselves in a way that means that we sector, and I will meet the Economic Secretary to the have cut to the bare minimum the number of groups Treasury to discuss reform. We have said that we would that we operate. We have a far tighter Cabinet Committee like to reduce the bureaucratic burden associated with system than that which was operated under the previous gift aid which falls on charities, and disproportionately Government, because, as I said to the hon. Member for on small charities. The Treasury-led gift aid forum is Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who asked an earlier examining the case for reform and will report in September. question, we are absolutely determined that our Cabinet Committees be genuine decision-making bodies, not Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab): I, merely a dignified part of the constitution. too, welcome the hon. Gentleman and the other Ministers to the Front Bench. In reviewing the regulation of Efficiency and Reform Group charities, it is also important to maintain both the capacity and the capability of charities. Perhaps the 12. Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): If he will Minister can therefore explain to the House the reasoning ensure that trade unions are involved in the work of his for ending the funding of the Futurebuilders programme, Department’s efficiency and reform group. [1353] which was widely acclaimed in a recently published evaluation by Sheffield Hallam university, and which is The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster building the capacity of precisely the organisations that General (Mr Francis Maude): We are committed to the Government want to take more responsibility for proper engagement with public service staff and their delivering services? representatives. Last week I had a good meeting with the Council of Civil Service Unions, and yesterday I Mr Hurd: We have not closed the funding for attended a meeting of the TUC’s public service liaison Futurebuilders. As the right hon. Lady well knows, group. We will invite the TUC and its member organisations, Futurebuilders is effectively shut for business. It has plus other representatives of public service employees, spent the money. We have taken a decision to use the to meet regularly to discuss matters affecting the work 321 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 322 force who deliver our vital public services, and to build House will be very grateful and will join me in thanking on the work of the Public Service Forum, which I am both the hon. Member for Wellingborough and, indeed, committed to continuing and which will meet in July. the Minister in his response from the Front Bench. There will be difficult issues to discuss, no doubt, but we I ask the House to stand and to observe one minute’s are determined to air them through regular dialogue. silence in memory of those who lost their lives in west Cumbria a week ago today. Mr Anderson: I thank the Minister for that reply. Will he look at the report that the Public and Commercial 12 noon Services Union produced last year, showing that 20,000 The House observed a one-minute silence. tax collectors were sacked at a time when at least £40 billion of tax evasion and avoidance was going on in this country? Will he work with the unions to try to PRIME MINISTER resolve that matter?

Mr Maude: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but The Prime Minister was asked— he will recollect the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury who said that there was no money left. We Engagements have to run the Government with less money than there was, and there will have to be cuts. We hope, to the Q1. [1326] Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): If he will maximum extent possible, that public spending can be list his official engagements for Wednesday 9 June. cut without affecting jobs, but it is unreal to expect that The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): As the that will be totally avoidable. people of Cumbria gather for memorial services to Early Intervention Programmes remember the shocking and tragic events of last week, it is right that our thoughts are with them and with the 13. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): friends and families of all those who were killed or Whether he has had recent discussions with third sector injured. organisations on the financing of early intervention I am sure that the whole House will wish to join me in programmes; and if he will make a statement. [1354] paying tribute to the soldiers who have died in Afghanistan: from 40 Commando Royal Marines, Marine Anthony The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Nick Hotine; from 1st Battalion the Mercian Regiment, Lance Hurd): I salute the hon. Gentleman’s pioneering work in Corporal Alan Cochran and Corporal Terry Webster; that area, and he will know that the voluntary and and a soldier from 3rd Regiment Royal Horse Artillery community sector can be a very helpful provider of who died yesterday. They were all extremely talented early intervention services that reduce the drivers of and professional servicemen who gave their lives for the demand on the state. I shall be in contact with my safety and security of people in our country. We owe colleagues in all relevant Departments about any future them a huge debt of gratitude, and our thoughts should policy developments on early intervention, and about be with their families and with their friends. how the Office for Civil Society can contribute. This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues Mr Allen: I welcome the Minister to his place. Will he and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I meet me and a Treasury Minister to discuss how we can shall have further such meetings later today. release the bonds on the voluntary and charitable sectors Albert Owen: May I associate myself with the words so that they can raise money in the City of London in of the Prime Minister and offer my condolences to the order to pursue early intervention through social investment families of those who were tragically killed in west bonds? Will he agree to meet me? Cumbria and of the servicemen who have died serving Mr Hurd: I can certainly speak for myself and agree our country? to meet the hon. Gentleman. He will know about the There have been reports in the newspapers that the interesting work on social impact bonds, which bring in Prime Minister wants a positive relationship with the private capital for investment in early intervention and Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland involve payment by results. That will be an important and, indeed, wants to work with them in partnership. part of the future. On that theme, will he put a measure before the House that allows a referendum this autumn for greater powers Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): Does the for the Welsh Assembly? Will he come clean with this Minister agree that voluntary organisations are preferable House, and with the people of Wales, and say whether to state organisations when providing early intervention? he is in favour of additional powers himself? Mr Hurd: I am sure that that is the experience of The Prime Minister: First, let me be as frank and as most colleagues in the House—if they have been to visit clear as I can be. We had a meeting of the joint ministerial social enterprises or community organisations and seen council yesterday with representatives of all the devolved the extraordinary work that they can do and the different Assemblies and Governments. I want to have a genuine relationships that they can have with the people whom respect agenda between the UK Government and all they are trying to help. those Administrations. We have always said— [Interruption.] I will tell you exactly what that means: Mr Speaker: There was some very helpful co-operation there will be a referendum on extra powers for the there from a Government Back Bencher, the hon. Member Welsh Assembly. That referendum, we believe, should for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), and indeed, I pay tribute take place next year. to the Minister on the Front Bench for responding in such a pithy and, I hope I can say, timely fashion. The Albert Owen indicated dissent. 323 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 324

The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman shakes his and is he in a position yet to tell the House whether the head, but if he wanted to have a referendum earlier, the Government have any plans to reconsider the regulations last Secretary of State could have pushed it through on guns? As the Home Secretary rightly said in her earlier, and he did not. I have to tell the hon. Gentleman statement last week, we have to learn any lessons we can. that that referendum will take place. It will be a matter for people in Wales to decide. They must determine The Prime Minister: I thank the right hon. and learned their future. As for my view, as someone who spends a Lady for her words. It is right to reflect on this appalling lot of time in Wales and has great respect for people in tragedy and think about how best we can go forward. Wales, I always find that, yes, there is a debate about Specifically on gun laws, we need to be clear first about powers for the Assembly, but there is also debate among the full facts of the case. We also need to determine the people in Wales wanting to know how we are going to type and scope of reviews that will take place after this make progress on housing, on health care, on schools, tragedy. Of course the Home Office will look again at and on jobs—the real issues as well as just the institutional the gun laws in the light of the tragedy, and I can also ones. announce today that the chief constable of Cumbria has already written to the president of the Association Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD): May of Chief Police Officers asking him to support a peer I associate myself with the remarks that the Prime review, to be conducted by national police experts on Minister rightly made about the dreadful shootings in firearms licensing and police firearms response and Cumbria last week, and also pay tribute to the emergency tactics. Those reviews will become publicly available services and to all those who are recovering from that documents. We should not leap to conclusions, and I do appalling tragedy? not believe in knee-jerk legislation. We have in this The Prime Minister will be aware that the national country some of the tightest gun laws, but of course we cancer reform strategy states that no cancer patient should look again at them. should have to travel for more than 45 minutes to On the issue of what sort of review is right for people receive radiotherapy treatment. Last December, we received in west Cumbria, I will be meeting two of the west a commitment from our local health trusts that there Cumbrian MPs whose constituencies are affected straight would be a new cancer unit for South Lakeland in after Prime Minister’s questions in my office, and the Kendal. Will the Prime Minister agree to meet me and right hon. and learned Lady would be very welcome to health campaigners and NHS officials soon to try to join us with the Home Secretary to discuss that matter. ensure that he, too, makes a commitment to the delivery In the end, we must ensure that we do the right thing by of a cancer unit— the people of west Cumbria and that they are properly served by the things that we decide as a Government. Mr Speaker: Order. We really must have shorter questions. Ms Harman: I fully support everything that the Prime Minister said in that answer, and may I say that I am The Prime Minister: First, the hon. Gentleman will sure that the visit that he and the Home Secretary made note from the coalition agreement, as I am glad to to Cumbria was very much appreciated? remind everyone, that we are protecting NHS spending. Just before the general election, the Electoral Commission There will be real increases in NHS spending under this published a report showing that despite the efforts of Government year on year. I absolutely understand the electoral registration officers, there are still serious concerns concerns that there are about wanting to keep services about the number of people who are eligible to vote but local to people. I know that is the case in Lakeland, and who are not on the electoral register. Given that the it is also the case with the West Cumberland hospital. I Government are committed to major reform of constituency am very happy to ensure that there is a meeting between boundaries, will the Prime Minister undertake not to the Health Secretary and the hon. Gentleman to discuss press forward with those changes on the basis of an the matter and ensure that we keep services local. A lot electoral register that excludes 3.5 million people? of the reconfigurations that took place under the previous Government caused an enormous amount of pain and The Prime Minister: First, I agree with the right hon. unease in local areas and did not actually lead to and learned Lady that it is important that people who improved services. are eligible to vote register to vote, and we want to see that sped up and improved. My right hon. Friend the Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): Deputy Prime Minister is taking forward that work. We I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to the four also want to see individual voter registration, because soldiers who have died in the service of our country there has been a great increase in fraud in recent years, in the past week: Marine Anthony Hotine from but even as that work goes ahead it is important that we 40 Commando Royal Marines, Lance Corporal Alan have reform so that we have equal-sized constituencies Cochran and Corporal Terry Webster from 1st Battalion across our country. Those of us who support the first- the Mercian Regiment, and a soldier from 3rd Regiment past-the-post voting system want to make it more fair Royal Horse Artillery. They fought with bravery, and by ensuring that seats are the same size across our today we remember not just the sacrifice they made but country. Where on earth is the unfairness in that? the loved ones they leave behind. I support what the Prime Minister said about Cumbria Ms Harman: The danger is that if the Prime Minister and join him in expressing our heartfelt sympathy to the presses on in the way he has indicated, he will be family and friends of all those who were killed or making the system less fair, not more fair. As he said, injured. The police investigation is under way. Can he the Deputy Prime Minister acknowledged to the House update us on the work that the Government are doing, this week that there is a problem with the register. The 325 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 326

Electoral Commission study found not just the number many years ago I championed such schemes, but I think of people who are not on the register, but who they are: everyone understands that the level of surveillance has a third of all black people, half of all young people, and become very great in our country. As well as the issue of half of all private sector tenants are not on the register, CCTV, there is the issue of how many different sorts of despite the work that has been undertaken by electoral officials are allowed to enter people’s houses without registration officers. Those people will not be counted if permission. We will be bringing forward legislation to the Prime Minister redraws constituency boundaries deal with that. I know that the Labour party has given now. He says he wants equal constituencies, but does he up on civil liberties, and that the right hon. and learned accept that he cannot have equal constituencies based Lady used to be head of what was the National Council on an unequal register? for Civil Liberties—that was all a long time ago—but we on this side of the House think civil liberties are The Prime Minister: I have to say to the right hon. important. and learned Lady that she had 13 years to sort out the issue of voter registration. What is interesting about Ms Harman: May I ask the Prime Minister the question what happened over the last 13 years is that elections again, because I was asking not about people entering used to be determined by a few officials in the Home people’s houses, but about CCTV? Can I tell him what Office. We have now got the vast bureaucracy of the Theresa was saying to me on Friday? [HON.MEMBERS: Electoral Commission. It spends millions of pounds “Theresa?”] Not the Home Secretary, but Theresa from every year, employs dozens of people, holds huge great the Poets Corner estate in my constituency. That Theresa reviews, spends vast amounts of money on advertising, is the one who knows about living on an estate that but has not succeeded in its task. needs CCTV. Let me tell the Prime Minister that such We will press ahead to get people to register, but I people do not want to be told by this Government that have to ask the right hon. and learned Lady this again: it is going to be made harder to get the CCTV that they what on earth is unfair about equal-sized seats? My need on their estates. I press him on this because it is hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) about people feeling, and being, safe in their communities. has, I think, to look after about 110,000 constituents, Will he guarantee that he will not do anything to make but some Opposition Members have about half that. it harder to get or to use CCTV? That is simply not fair. The Prime Minister: The right hon. and learned Lady Ms Harman: The Prime Minister has shown that he is should understand that this is all about proportionality not listening to the argument that he cannot redraw the and making sure that we have a system that helps boundaries, which is his Government’s proposal, until protect people while respecting civil liberties. It is the problem of the register is sorted out. He has shown extraordinary how the Labour party is becoming more that he is not listening to argument, but pressing on and more authoritarian. Hearing the right hon. Member regardless. That is not the new politics; it is downright for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) talk about immigration, unfair. it seems we have the new Alf Garnett of British politics. May I move to another issue? [Interruption.] It is one of the biggest U-turns that any of us can remember: for 13 years, not a word about immigration Mr Speaker: Order. Quite a bad example is being set or our borders, but now they are all in a race. Perhaps it by some senior Members to newcomers—[Interruption.] is time to move on to another subject, and the right Order. There are far too many private conversations hon. and learned Lady can tell us what she thinks about taking place. The public are not impressed: they want to immigration. hear orderly exchanges. Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Is the Prime Ms Harman: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Minister aware of the closure of 12 branches of the Before the election, the coalition parties talked about Derbyshire building society and its head office in the ending what they called the surveillance society. The village of Duffield in my constituency? Can he assure coalition agreement said that the Government would me that he and his Government will do all they can to further regulate the use of closed circuit television, but help those constituents who will lose their jobs—nearly on Monday, the Home Secretary could not tell the 250 of them—in this small, rural area? Will he please House what that would mean in practice. Can the Prime assure us that the Government will do all they can to Minister tell us now? help these constituents who are being dealt this cruel blow at this difficult time? The Prime Minister: First, I am not surprised that the right hon. and learned Lady wanted to move on to The Prime Minister: I understand why my hon. Friend another subject. Let me make one last point on the wants to raise this issue. What has happened to the previous question—[Interruption.] I am sorry if it is Derbyshire building society is desperately sad, and obviously painful, but it is important. She says that it is not right the Government will stand ready to do all we can to to redraw boundaries until we have sorted out the retrain people who have lost their jobs and to ensure electoral register, but I have to point out that we fought that they get the very best opportunities, and also to the last election on redrawn boundaries, so I think we ensure that we go on having a strong financial services have a long way to go on that. There was, I have to say, sector. As the Derbyshire building society reminds us, just a whiff of special pleading. this is not just about the City of London; it is about the On surveillance, let me be clear that I support CCTV fact that millions of people in our country work in cameras. I have them in my constituency and they are financial services, providing a good service, and we need very effective, and when I worked at the Home Office to help them. 327 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 328

Q2. [1327] Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) that she raised last week, that the money will go ahead (Lab): One of the projects that stands to be affected by and the investment will be going in. Before Opposition the Government’s decision to put on hold £600 million Members jump to their feet, let me explain what the of housing investment is the housing element of the problem is with some of the grants. Before the last redevelopment of the Longbridge site in my election, Lord Mandelson had a giant cheque book, constituency, which is important not just to that area which he went all round the country opening up, spending but to the economic recovery of Birmingham as a tens of billions of pounds, which he promised to whole. Given that the project is supported by the 200 projects, two thirds of which were conveniently Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition that runs located in Labour marginal seats. Given that so much Birmingham city council, will the Prime Minister tell money was spent, it is only right for a responsible me what priority he will attach to the regenerative incoming Government to review those decisions one by effects of such housing projects? one and make sure that the money is well spent. Fortunately for Lord Mandelson, someone else is now getting out The Prime Minister: Everyone wants regeneration to their cheque book to pay for his memoirs. continue in Birmingham, and I pay tribute to Birmingham city council, which is jointly run, I have to say, by Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con) rose—[Interruption.] Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, who are continuing with the very good work that they do. We want that Mr Speaker: Order. Opposition Back Benchers must regeneration to continue. The problem with the previous calm down; the hon. Gentleman is entitled to be heard. Government’s housing commitments, particularly on social housing, is that they simply were not funded. One of the things that we and the Secretary of State for Q4 . [1329] Sajid Javid: NHS managers in my Business, Innovation and Skills have been able to do, in Bromsgrove constituency tell me that they are being making £6 billion of cuts this year, is plough back some strangled by the level of bureaucracy. What action of that money into social housing schemes, which the will my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister take to last Government promised but never funded. make sure that hospitals will never be allowed again to put top-down targets before patient care? Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con): Did my right hon. Friend have the opportunity to reflect overnight The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely on the noble Lord Myners’s candid and forthright good point. We all know of cases where targets were remarks in the other place about the appalling financial getting in the way of proper clinical outcomes and legacy left by the Labour party? Does he share my view clinical care. Too many people have experienced that in that Lord Myners’s remarks make it clear that the the health service, and our view is clear: if there is no Office for Budget Responsibility should clearly be supported clinical justification for targets, they will go. I can on both sides of the House, and if anything is to be announce today that we will fulfil another important regretted, is it not the fact that he said that after, rather pledge—to have a public inquiry into the appalling than before, the election? events at the Mid Staffordshire hospital. I remember going to Stafford and meeting families, many of which Hon. Members: Give him a job! had lost loved ones, some of whom went into hospital for a routine operation, but because the standards of The Prime Minister: That is a good idea, on that hygiene and the management were not right and, frankly, performance. It is great to welcome my hon. Friend because targets were being pursued rather than clinical back to the House of Commons. He is right that Lord outcomes, people died needlessly.This inquiry is important Myners, who was hand-picked by the last Government so that people in Staffordshire can tell their story. to be a Treasury Minister, put his finger on the button when he said: Q5. [1330] Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): “The “There is nothing progressive about a Government who consistently Coalition: our programme for government” states: spend more than they can raise in taxation, and certainly nothing “We will extend anonymity in rape cases to defendants.” progressive that endows generations to come with the liabilities incurred by the current generation.” —[Official Report, House of May I ask the Prime Minister why he believes that Lords, 8 June 2010; Vol. 719, c. 625.] defendants in rape cases are more deserving of anonymity Those words are absolutely right, but what a pity he did than those accused of murder, domestic violence or not say it when he was in office and had the chance to sexual abuse of children? do something about it. The Prime Minister: I know that the right hon. Lady Q3. [1328] Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland cares very deeply about this issue—the key issue of South) (Lab): I would like to thank the Prime Minister getting the conviction rate for rapists up—as do I. I for writing to me today to tell me that the decision on know that she gave a good speech on the subject in an the Nissan grant will be fast-tracked. Waiting for this Adjournment debate. What I would say is that none of decision is causing huge economic uncertainty to the us should ignore the fact that somehow there is a north-east economy. I hope that the Prime Minister can problem with this. We know that a lot of people are help me with a similar cause of concern to my falsely accused, whose careers and lives can be blighted— constituents—the issue of whether the rebuilding of [Interruption.] Opposition Members shake their heads, Hetton school will go ahead as planned. but in some cases people have committed suicide. One of the proofs is that when the right hon. and learned The Prime Minister: First of all, having written the Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman), hon. Lady a letter, I can now go a bit further and now leader of the Labour party, was in office, she confirm, with respect to the specific grant for Nissan commissioned a report into this issue by Baroness Stern, 329 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 330 which found that 8 to 10% of reported rape cases could stability and democracy. We are actually seeing some result in false allegations. Baroness Stern, who looked progress there. This morning I had a meeting with into the issue, said that defendant anonymity was often General Petraeus, who brought me up to date on what raised and that a he considers to be the latest situation. “full examination of the issues would be helpful to the debate”. It is important to remember that one of the reasons What we are promising is to bring proposals forward so why our brave servicemen and women fought and died that they can be debated. Let us not ignore the fact that in Iraq was that they were trying to make it a more there is a problem, because there is one, and let us see if stable country, and a country to which people who had we can work together to find the right outcome. fled it would be able to return. Yes, of course I will look at the specific issue raised by my hon. Friend, but in Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con): The people general, while we are here to offer people asylum when of Wootton Bassett in my constituency who, week by they are fleeing torture and persecution, if we help to week, lead the nation in paying their respects to our make their country safe they should be able to go home. fallen heroes seek no thanks or recognition for so doing. When the happy day comes when our soldiers are Q7. [1332] Tony Cunningham (Workington) (Lab): I finally brought back from Afghanistan, however, I wonder thank the Prime Minister for his recent visit to west whether the Prime Minister and his colleagues would Cumbria. Will he give me a personal assurance that he consider repositioning the very fine war memorial from will do everything in his power to help and support its Camp Bastion to the High street in Wootton Bassett in people, who have suffered so grievously in recent times? commemoration of the way in which the local people carry out their service? The Prime Minister: I can certainly give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. I know how hard he and The Prime Minister: I think my hon. Friend makes an other MPs in Cumbria have been working to bring extremely good and positive suggestion. The whole people together after this appalling tragedy. They are, as country has seen the incredible devotion of people in someone has said, a very tough people in west Cumbria, Wootton Bassett, who, come rain or shine, are always but also very compassionate, very caring, and a very out on the streets watching as that very sad procession strong community. They have shown that in the way in goes by. I think it has stirred people in this country to which they have responded to these dreadful events. see that, when it comes to this conflict, whatever we As I said in answer to the right hon. and learned think of it, we all want to support our troops and their Member for Camberwell and Peckham, we will meet families. We all want to do what we can to recognise after Question Time to discuss what should be done that. It is not just a Government thing; it is about the next. I think that that is important, and I think it whole of our society wanting to recognise what these important to recognise that west Cumbria is a part of people do on our behalf. The people of Wootton Bassett the country that sometimes feels quite cut off. are, in my view, right up there among the heroes. Amazing work was done by West Cumberland hospital, which proved itself when facing the most appalling Q6. [1331] Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) tragedy, and the terrible difficulties caused by the fact (Lab): I am sure the Prime Minister is aware that a that so many people with such awful injuries were cross-party group of MPs worked extremely hard in the coming to the hospital at once. People are inclined to last Parliament to persuade the Government to adopt say that it is a bit too small to cope with such events, but new measures to regulate houses in multiple it coped magnificently, and I think it proved that big is occupation and to license private landlords. Can he not always beautiful. reassure me that his Government will not seek to undermine that legislation, which is so important to my Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): The last city centre community and others? Government changed the rules so that anyone claiming asylum in this country must do so in person in my The Prime Minister: The hon. Lady has made a very constituency. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is good point. We all know of the problems of houses that wrong to ask one local authority to shoulder what are kept badly, and of past problems involving HMOs. I should be a national responsibility, and if so, will the will ask the Minister for Housing to get in touch with Government review the decision? her about his plans, so that we can ensure that we get this right. The Prime Minister: I should be happy to consider that. I recall that it has been an issue in the past for Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The legacy constituencies surrounding Heathrow airport, and that of the former Government’s disastrous decision making mechanisms were introduced in an attempt to alleviate in Iraq is still plain to see. Will the Prime Minister look some of the burdens. I will ensure that Home Office at the existing Home Office guidance on the deporting Ministers get in touch with my hon. Friend so that we of asylum seekers to Baghdad? A plane has left today. can deal with this problem. May I ask the Prime Minister to consider the matter again, personally and compassionately, to ensure that Q8. [1333] Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): The we have a firm immigration policy, but remain a bastion European Commission recently reported that for people fleeing political persecution? European fish stocks were being fished at unsustainable levels, and that 30% were close to The Prime Minister: I will certainly look into my hon. collapse. Will the Prime Minister negotiate with Friend’s point. However, I think we should recognise European colleagues to seek the abandonment of the that whatever view we took of the Iraq conflict—and I common fisheries policy, and, if they do not agree, give supported it—at least Iraq now has some chance of notice of Britain’s withdrawal from the CFP? 331 Oral Answers9 JUNE 2010 Oral Answers 332

The Prime Minister: That is a question that I am promise to arrange all the stops on the east coast main rather used to anticipating from those on the Conservative line. Sadly, that is a power I do not think I have, but I Benches. I think that even the most enthusiastic supporter will do my best. of the European Union would recognise that the common fisheries policy has not been a success either in supporting Q10. [1335] Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): our fishermen or in saving fish stocks. There are good The Prime Minister will know that I am a follower of lessons to be learned from other countries that have my beloved England football team. I ask him to do a done better. I have to say though that that sometimes great thing for the people of England: cut through the means some very drastic action in terms of closing bureaucracy and nonsense and fly the flag of England some fishing areas altogether, but other countries have over Downing street for the duration of the World cup. managed to do that and to regenerate their fishing The Prime Minister: I am pleased to tell my hon. stocks, so we will certainly take forward those negotiations Friend that I have had those conversations. There was on, I am sure, a coalition-wide basis. some question that this was going to have a cost impact, but I have managed to cut through that and I can say Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): Does the Prime Minister that, at no additional cost to the taxpayer, the flag of St agree that we have heard a lot about fairness from George will fly above Downing street during the World Labour Members today, but there is nothing fair about cup. I am sure that the whole House will want to wish the legacy that the Labour Government have left us: the Fabio Capello and all our team well—for the purposes £75 billion of debt interest that we will have to pay, of this, I am looking at all the Benches here. I am sure which we could have spent on public services in all the that everyone in the House, no matter what part of the constituencies represented in the House, including my UK they come from, will be cheering, “Come on England.” constituency of Devizes? Q13. [1338] John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op): I thank the Prime Minister for his kind The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend makes an extremely words about the Cumbrian people. Can he say, in good point, which is that, if we do not take action to relation to his forthcoming gun review, whether he deal with the deficit, we will pay over £70 billion, not thinks that it is still worth the risk to allow guns used repaying the debt, but just on debt interest in five years’ for sport to continue to be kept at home? Will that be time. Think about it like this: all the revenue gleaned considered in his review? from corporation tax—all the tax on every company making a profit in our country—does not even pay for The Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman is right that half the debt interest bill. That is the mess that we have everything has to be considered, including the mental been left in, but this Government have the courage to health of people and police visits to their homes, but we deal with it. have, because of previous tragedies, very strict rules on what people who keep guns at home have to do in terms of very strict security. I remember sitting on the Home Q9. [1334] Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) Affairs Committee and asking the ACPO representative (Lab): The Prime Minister will agree that cross-border responsible for the issue how much leakage there was rail services are strategically important to the UK. Will from legally held guns into the illegal, black market. he therefore honour the assurances given to me by the The answer was virtually none, so if we are looking for previous Government that east coast main line services what the problem is, it is clearly that in our society we will continue to stop at Motherwell and that there will have a huge number of guns that we need to get rid of. be an increase in west coast main line services stopping Clearly, there was an appalling problem in this case, at Motherwell? where, as I have said, a switch flicked in someone’s head. We cannot legislate against that, but let us look at The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman every aspect and ensure that we have the robust laws for raising that issue. I will certainly look at it. I cannot that we need. 333 9 JUNE 2010 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 334 Trust Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust to the current safeguards for whistleblowers in the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 by: reinforcing the 12.34 pm NHS constitution to make clear the rights and The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): responsibilities of NHS staff and their employers in With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement respect of whistleblowing; seeking through negotiations on Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust. with NHS trade unions to amend terms and conditions In March last year, the Healthcare Commission’s of service for NHS staff to include a contractual right report on Mid Staffordshire and the appalling failures to raise concerns in the public interest; issuing unequivocal in patient care that it laid bare shocked us all. Three guidance to NHS organisations that all their contracts reports later, and I am announcing today what should of employment should cover staff whistleblowing rights; have been announced then: a full public inquiry into issuing new guidance to the NHS about supporting and how these events went undetected and unchallenged for taking action on concerns raised by staff in the public so long. The inquiry will be held in public, including the interest; and exploring with NHS staff further measures evidence, the oral hearings and the final report. We can to provide a safe and independent authority to which combat a culture of secrecy and restore public confidence they can turn when their own organisation is not listening only by ensuring the fullest openness and transparency or acting on concerns. in any investigation. In the coming weeks we will introduce further far- So why another inquiry? We know only too well every reaching reforms of the NHS that go to the very heart harrowing detail of what happened at Mid Staffordshire of the failures at Mid Staffs. This is not about changes and the failings of the trust, but we are still little closer in processes or structures; it is about a wider shift in to understanding how that was allowed to happen by culture, putting patients at the heart of the NHS and the wider system. The families of those patients who focusing on the things that matter most to them. That suffered so dreadfully deserve to know, and so too does includes putting the focus on safety. At Mid-Staffs, every NHS patient in this country. safety was not the priority.It was undermined by politically motivated process targets. The first Francis inquiry was This was a failure of the trust first and foremost, but crystal clear on that point. It said: it was also a national failure of the regulatory and supervisory system, which should have secured the quality “This evidence satisfies me that there was an atmosphere in and safety of patient care. Why did it have to take a which front line staff and managers were led to believe that if the targets were not met they would be in danger of losing their jobs. determined group of families to expose those failings There was an atmosphere which led to decisions being made and campaign tirelessly for answers? I pay tribute again under pressure about patients, decisions that had nothing to do to the work of Julie Bailey and Cure the NHS, rightly with patient welfare. As will be seen, the pressure to meet the supported by Members in this House. waiting target was sometimes detrimental to good care inA&E.” Why did the primary care trust and strategic health We will scrap such process targets and replace them authority not see what was happening and intervene with a new focus on patients’outcomes—the only outcomes earlier? How was the trust able to gain foundation that matter. We will empower patients with access to status while clinical standards were so poor? Why did information, giving them the ability to hold their own the regulatory bodies not act sooner to investigate a records, to make informed choices and to interact more trust whose mortality rates had been significantly higher readily with clinicians. We will put power in patients’ than the average since 2003 and whose record in dealing hands. Ultimately, if patients had been informed and with serious complaints was so poor? The public deserve empowered, and if people had listened to them rather answers. than obsessing about centrally mandated processes and The previous reports are clear that the following targets, these scandalous failings could not have gone existed: a culture of fear in which staff did not feel able unchallenged for so long. to report concerns; a culture of secrecy in which the In closing, I want to say a word about the trust itself. trust board shut itself off from what was happening in It is so important that the hospital and the trust, which its hospital and ignored its patients; and a culture of have been under such an intense spotlight, should be bullying, which prevented people from doing their jobs able to continue to improve services for the patients properly. Yet how these conditions developed has not they serve and continue to rebuild the trust and the been satisfactorily addressed. The 800-page report by fractured confidence of their community. Staffing there Robert Francis QC, published in February, gave us a has increased, with more than 140 more nurses recruited forensic account of the local failures in that hospital since March 2009. Processes are more open and transparent, and the consequences for patients, but, like its predecessors, and monthly board meetings are now being held in his report was limited by its narrow terms of reference. public. Results are improving: the hospital standardised I am pleased to say that Robert Francis has agreed to mortality ratio there is now significantly lower, and the chair the new inquiry, and he will have the full statutory rate of healthcare associated infections has improved. force of the Inquiries Act 2005 to compel witnesses to The Care Quality Commission will, in the coming weeks, attend and speak under oath. Clearly these are complex provide its considered view on that progress, when it issues, and Robert Francis has already said he wants to publishes the findings of its “12 month on” review. establish an expert panel that can help support him We cannot and should not underestimate the task through this process. However, it is important for everyone still ahead, and the attention of the trust must not be that the inquiry be conducted thoroughly and swiftly, unduly diverted. That is why I am clear that this further with the aim of providing its final report and conclusions inquiry should not cover ground already covered in the by March 2011. first Francis inquiry, and that it should, as far as possible, I also want to assure the House, however, that we will ensure that it supports all those staff who are working not wait to take earlier action where necessary. I can so hard to bring about the necessary changes. When this therefore announce today that we are going to give teeth inquiry has completed its work and I return to the 335 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 9 JUNE 2010 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 336 Trust Trust [Mr Andrew Lansley] that it does not distract the trust from the overriding task of ensuring that the hospital continues to make the House to present its report, I am confident that we will, necessary improvements? Will he also make sure that for the first time in this tragic saga, be able to discuss the trust’s leadership can continue to focus on improving conclusions rather than just questions. We will be able relations with the local community? to show that we have finally faced up to the truths of Will the right hon. Gentleman give me an assurance this terrible episode and that we are taking every step to that the recommendations of the original Francis report ensure that it is never allowed to happen again. That is a will continue to be implemented in full while the new basic duty of any Government. For the people of inquiry takes place? He will know that Robert Francis Staffordshire—many of whose relatives suffered unbearably concluded in his original report that many people came in the closing stages of their lives—and for the nation as forward who would not have done if the inquiry had a whole, this is the very least they are entitled to. I been held under a different status. I gave Robert Francis commend this statement to the House. the ability to come back to me to ask for further powers if they were necessary, but may I ask for the right hon. Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab): I begin by thanking the Gentleman’s assurance today that the status of the new Secretary of State for Health, the right hon. Member inquiry will ensure that all the people who need to for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) for his statement, speak to it do come forward and give evidence? much of which I welcome. It will be hard for the people On NHS targets, I was disappointed by the Secretary of Stafford and for the staff at the hospital to hear that of State’s comments in his statement, and by those of their town and their hospital are in the news again the Prime Minister a few moments ago, as they appear today, and it is important to say at the outset—as the to be prejudging the inquiry that they have set up today. Secretary of State did—that this inquiry relates to historical Trusts up and down the country are implementing events at the hospital and that the situation there has national standards safely. Indeed, targets are about been improving ever since. I should like to put on record patient safety: the four-hour A and E target is the basic my own personal appreciation of the role played by the minimum that every person in this country can expect new chair and chief executive of Mid Staffordshire when arriving at the door of the NHS. NHS Foundation Trust in improving standards at the The targets were implemented and brought in because hospital, rebuilding confidence and rebuilding the important some years ago, people were waiting for hours on relationships with the local community. end—almost whole days—in A and E departments. If Events at the hospital between 2006 and 2008 represent the Secretary of State is resolved to remove that standard one of the darkest chapters in our national health in the NHS, which many of the professional health service. As the Francis report—which ran to two volumes bodies support, will he therefore give us an assurance and more than 900 pages—documented, there were that we will not see a rise in A and E waiting times? appalling failures at every level, from basic care and What mechanism will he implement to ensure that? human compassion on the wards to a failure in the duty The trust’s board allowed staffing to fall to dangerously of care at board level towards staff, patients and the low levels, with 120 whole-time equivalents lacking whole community. from the wards. I put it to the Secretary of State that The NHS and its values are part of what makes our that was the main reason for the failures at the trust. I country great, but the NHS is not perfect. When things am sure that he will agree with me that not all the staff go wrong, it has a tendency to push people away and then working at the hospital are to blame, and that bring down the shutters. Yes, it is hard to deal with there are many good, decent, hard-working people at complaints when they affect matters of life and death, the hospital who will again find it hard to see their place but it is only by holding up a mirror to the national of work back in the news today. There will also be many health service that we will get an open, learning health staff across the NHS who will feel that there is a daily service that learns from its mistakes and ensures that focus on their failings but very little recognition of the they are not repeated. That is why I took the decision to outstanding professional standards that they show, or commission the original Francis report. It is also why, of the millions of acts of human kindness that take before the election, I signalled the need for a second-stage place in our NHS day in and day out. inquiry, to be held in public, into the actions of the In closing, may I ask the Secretary of State to give the supervisory and regulatory bodies, right up to the House an assurance that he will always present a balanced Department of Health. I therefore give the Secretary of picture and, in this case, be clear that these were isolated State the assurance that this new inquiry will have the events at an isolated hospital? Opposition’s full co-operation, from the very top right the way down. Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for indicating that he supports this further inquiry, and We published the draft terms of reference for that that he and his colleagues will give it that support. They second-stage inquiry before the election. Will the Secretary will know that for more than six years as shadow of State therefore explain to the House what questions Secretary of State I always gave both a balanced and or areas it will consider that were not covered either by positive view of what the staff of the NHS achieve the Francis report or the draft terms of reference that daily on our behalf. That extends to the staff at we laid before this House and on which we sought Stafford hospital, as I have made clear to them when I comments from a wide range of organisations? Also, have visited them in the past. Indeed, I shall be visiting what is different about the inquiry that he has announced, again tomorrow in order to make that even clearer—and compared with the one that we proposed? I have asked Robert Francis to ensure that as he How long will the new inquiry take, and how much conducts his inquiry, he does whatever he can not to will it cost? Will he give the House an assurance—as I divert them from continuing to improve care for people think that he did in his statement—that he will ensure in Staffordshire. 337 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 9 JUNE 2010 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 338 Trust Trust The right hon. Gentleman asked what the difference written to him on a number of matters in connection is between the inquiry that I am announcing today and with this case, but I should like to raise just one now. what he said should happen in a second stage Francis Can he assure me that the resources needed both for the report, and I must tell him that there are a number of inquiry itself and for staff cover will be made available very serious differences. First, this is an inquiry not to the trust, so that staff can continue the vital work of under the National Health Service Act 2006 but under restoring public confidence in Stafford hospital? the Inquiries Act 2005, so there will be a presumption that hearings will be held in public, and that records of Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that evidence and information given to the inquiry must be question. Although he has only recently arrived in this made available to the public. House to represent his constituents, I know from my In addition, there will be a power of compulsion in personal experience of our conversations, our meetings respect of witnesses and evidence. I simply do not and my visits to see him and others in Stafford just how accept his assertion that had there been a different legal diligently and consistently, and in what a compelling basis for the earlier inquiry people would not have come way, he has represented his constituents over the past forward to give evidence. Either they would have done year or so. In reply to his question, I can tell him that so or, if they had not been willing to do so, they could although I have made it clear to Robert Francis that we have been compelled to do so; that power will be must do this swiftly—and, therefore, without incurring available now. This inquiry will have a power to take excessive costs—we must do it successfully and achieve evidence on oath and a power under the 2005 Act to a quality result in order to inform everything we need to make recommendations, if Robert Francis so concludes, do to improve the NHS. We need to go beyond the mere concerning not only NHS organisations, which are covered structures and the processes—we have seen all that—to by the 2006 Act, but non-NHS organisations. The terms find out why people in all those structures were not of reference make it clear that Robert Francis will be focusing on patient safety and quality of care, and how able to look more widely. The inquiry will examine, for they can be better incentivised, encouraged and required example, the actions of the coroner and the Health and to do that in future. I am sure that my hon. Friend Safety Executive. Indeed, he will be able to make knows that we are ensuring that the additional costs recommendations in relation to the General Medical that the Mid Staffordshire trust has had to meet in the Council. He would not have been empowered to do that course of the first Francis inquiry and now, and in in an inquiry simply under the 2006 Act. supporting the delivery of better care, are being met with additional resources from the strategic health authority. Finally, may I deal with the right hon. Gentleman’s point about targets? The four-hour target is not a measure of outcome; it is not a measure of the result for Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): May I, patients. The result for patients is about their going to on behalf of constituents whose families were affected an emergency department and their disease, injury or by what happened at Mid Staffs, welcome the continued illness being treated successfully. What happened at focus that the new coalition Government are placing on Stafford hospital provided evidence—we saw other such making progress on this issue and on ensuring that what evidence in many other places—to suggest that the happened before never happens again at Stafford hospital? four-hour target was being pursued not in order to give I pay tribute to the work done by my former colleague the best possible care to patients, but in spite of what David Kidney, who, along with the action group, called would be the best possible care for patients. Patients for a full public inquiry into this matter; that needs to be were being discharged when they should not have been, put on the record. Will the Secretary of State give me and patients were being transferred to inappropriate assurances about the make-up of the panel, and perhaps wards where there was no provision to look after them. give consideration to making trade union representatives members of it? We need to ensure that all people It is vital that we focus on the result for patients. Like affected in the provision of care can be properly represented me, the right hon. Gentleman knows that the length of and can be part of that panel in the further inquiry. wait in the emergency department is not an irrelevant fact for patients. We are therefore going to consider, Mr Lansley: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her constructively, how to scrap the four-hour target as it support for the further inquiry. I should say, first, that I currently exists, and, as my right hon. Friend the Prime share her view that David Kidney sought to get to the Minister said at Prime Minister’s questions, work on the bottom of what happened at his local hospital, and basis of saying that what the clinical evidence makes pressed for a further, and public, inquiry. The shadow clear directly contributes to delivering the best possible Secretary of State must know that at the beginning of results for patients. We will start that process soon, in last September Robert Francis came to him in the midst making that clear to the NHS. Our approach will go of his first inquiry to raise the issue of the legal base for beyond the simple question of how long people wait in that inquiry and the question of whether it should be an emergency department; it will go to the outcomes brought under the Inquiries Act. He wanted the terms being achieved in those departments. That is what putting of reference to be extended sufficiently widely to ensure quality at the heart of the NHS actually means; it that at that stage he could have looked beyond the means quality and results, not just processes. question of what happened, to the question of why the primary care trust, the strategic health authority, Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): I am most grateful to the NHS in general, and other organisations, did not my right hon. Friend for his statement and for the intervene earlier and in a better way. On 10 September announcement of an inquiry under the 2005 Act. I am last year, the then Secretary of State did not agree that also grateful to him and to the Prime Minister for their that should happen, but had he done so the first Francis support for my constituents over the extremely difficult inquiry could have achieved much earlier what the past year. The Secretary of State will recall that I have second will now have to do. 339 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 9 JUNE 2010 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 340 Trust Trust Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): I thank the Secretary secrecy came to pass, what effect it had and how we can of State for his statement, which was well overdue move beyond that. The report will be very important, if because the previous Government declined to do what it is successful, not just for the people of Staffordshire he has agreed to do. I also thank the Prime Minister—a but right across the country in showing how we can former candidate for Stafford—who took a very active move from a top-down, secretive, bullying culture to part in this extremely important decision, for which one that is absolutely open, transparent, focused on both my constituents and those in Stafford will be patient safety and entirely responsive to the needs of deeply grateful. The Secretary of State has rightly dealt patients. with the question of oaths and of compulsion of witnesses. Will he also indicate that expenses relating to the provision Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): One of the of legal representation for witnesses will also be made tragedies is that concerns were being raised about Stafford available? In addition to dealing with issues relating to hospital as long as five years ago but little or no notice whistleblowers and targets, will the whole question of was taken of them. A constituent of mine, Barbara self-assessment by hospitals and hospital trusts be Allatt, was until recently a student nurse who helped to considered? Will the inquiry examine those matters? A expose the appalling neglect of elderly patients at the similar inquiry in 1984 led to a great improvement in hospital trust, but rather than her concerns being acted the national circumstances relating to hospitals. The on, she was instead needlessly thrown off her training same hospital was involved in the legionnaires disease course. In his statement, the Secretary of State outlined inquiry that Baroness Thatcher incorporated. I again new whistleblowing rights for future staff. Will those thank the Secretary of State for making this decision, rights be extended retrospectively so that staff who which will be greatly welcomed in my constituency. spoke out previously, and in doing so put their job at risk, will not be punished again? Mr Speaker: Although we heard about four questions there, I am sure that the Secretary of State will content Mr Lansley: Of course, by definition, contractual himself with one reply. rights cannot be retrospectively applied, but let me make it clear that I will be issuing guidance in terms Mr Lansley: If I may, Mr Speaker, I shall content that I have set out to the House in my statement myself with saying that my hon. Friend made it clear today—albeit that we might need to do more. That from the outset that an Inquiries Act inquiry was the guidance is entirely intended to move the NHS to an right idea. He said that more than a year ago, and had open culture that encourages staff to raise concerns. As we gone down that route then, we would have been I said to the Patients Association yesterday, we must much further towards getting to the whole truth now. have a culture of challenge inside the NHS under which Matters relating to the Inquiries Act and the panel the offence is not to make a mistake, as mistakes are membership are ones that will now be determined by human, but to seek to cover up or ignore a mistake. Robert Francis. I have published the terms of reference That is what happens in the best organisations and it to which he will be working, and under the Inquiries must be what happens throughout the NHS. Act issues such as legal representation and its funding are determined under those. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I welcome the Secretary of State’s promise of early action. Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): My Will he tell us how many members of the present board constituents who were affected will also be following were in post on 18 March 2009 and when he will sack very carefully what happens in this public inquiry, and I them as he has promised? associate myself with what has been said about David Kidney, who worked extremely hard and effectively on Mr Lansley: The hon. Gentleman will forgive me: I this horrific issue. know that the chief executive, the chair, the nursing I am concerned that the horrific failure at this hospital director and others have moved on, but I do not know is being used as a hook in a most appalling way for the the precise answer and I will write to him about that. In proposals to scrap targets, which the Conservatives relation to any individuals, I think it is proper that, have talked about for a long time. In any system there having asked Robert Francis to conduct a further inquiry will always be people who try to manipulate it; in a that takes account of all that he discovered in the first culture of fear and bullying, as there was in this hospital, report and that covers the same period of time—2005 to that is exactly when systems will be manipulated. Will 2009—he is free to make recommendations that will the right hon. Gentleman therefore take into account as bear upon people working inside the trust and in wide a spectrum of advice as possible when he is considering organisations, and upon how they discharge those the new outcome proposals, to ensure that whatever responsibilities. system he brings in is not also open to abuse and manipulation? Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I thank my right hon. Friend for announcing the inquiry, which Mr Lansley: One of the hon. Gentleman’s friends will be welcomed by many of my constituents and says that we should take action on the basis of the first others. I urge the Department of Health always to listen Francis inquiry, and we will, and the hon. Gentleman to the relatives of patients, because relatives were saying says that we should not take action on targets. The first that this was a problem far earlier than anyone else. Will Francis report made it clear that targets compromise the Secretary of State, please, always listen to what patient care, so we do need to take action. relatives and patients say? The hon. Gentleman asked a further question. Robert Francis and I have had two discussions and the terms of Mr Lansley: I am glad that my hon. Friend raises this reference are very clear. He is looking beyond the structures point, because I know from the four occasions on which and processes to how the culture of bullying, fear and I have visited Stafford and talked to members of the 341 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 9 JUNE 2010 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 342 Trust Trust Cure the NHS group just what a desperate struggle they to happen over so long? Perhaps the most difficult had to be listened to. We should therefore be clear not question of all is this: why was it not the first time that only about changing the culture inside the NHS, so that this had happened in the NHS? patients’ issues and complaints are treated seriously from the outset in an open and transparent way, but Mr Lansley: My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. that the patient voice should be strengthened in the That is why we have to move from all those questions to NHS. Even people who are literally self-appointed voices some serious answers—so that we can have the reform for patients should not be dismissed and pushed to the that the NHS so badly needs. I know and he knows that margins. We have to be prepared to listen to patients this is about not just a different set of structures, but a however their views are brought forward. change of culture and a focus in the NHS on patients and results for patients to the exclusion of other bureaucratic Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): The Secretary impositions. There is such immense bureaucracy—PCTs, of State was unclear about his proposals for waiting SHAs and regulators—that everything should have worked times. Will he clarify this issue? He seems to be saying perfectly, but it did not. Why? Because in all of that, the that he will do away with waiting times but then introduce underlying pressures in the service were not focused on a new system. Will the new waiting time be four hours, results for patients. We have to drive towards that five hours, six hours, 10 hours or 12 hours? conclusion. Mr Lansley: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): does not seem to understand. I was very clear in saying Will the Secretary of State give way? that I am going to abolish the four-hour accident and emergency target. I will issue guidance to the NHS shortly, the purpose of which is to amend the four-hour Mr Speaker: There is no giving way involved; this is a A and E target, alongside others, to ensure that we statement. deliver better quality. That is not just about the time spent waiting in an emergency department; it is about Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I welcome the quality of the service provided and it is based on my right hon. Friend’s statement. Only yesterday, I clinical evidence. wrote to him regarding a constituent in South Derbyshire who had gone through a four-hour wait and was then Andy Burnham: That is unclear. admitted, to make sure that the four-hour rule was not broken, and had to stay in a ward for six hours and see Mr Lansley: The point that I am making is very clear. even more people when he could have been on a bus We are not going to focus on narrow process targets in going home much earlier. There are lessons to be learned future; we are going to look at the quality and outcomes across the whole country, and I look forward to the provided for patients. I will issue future guidance on report coming through. that. Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We will Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con): The report take not only the clear evidence from the first Francis highlights that there was a breakdown of care at almost report, but evidence from many other places, including every level, from basic nursing care up to high levels of that from many of the leading clinical professions that communication. Does the Secretary of State agree that the way in which the four-hour target has been administered when the patient becomes the absolute focus of every has undermined the quality of patient care. We will level of care delivery, from basic levels of nursing care focus on quality and help the NHS to deliver what it right up to top levels of management, it will be more knows is the right quality. difficult for such a culture to grow in terms of process delivery? Will he guarantee that the report will look at Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I welcome putting back into hospitals the approach of making the my right hon. Friend to his post and thank him for his patient the most important person and of putting the two visits to Malvern over the past few years to support patient at the centre of every element of care that is the new community hospital that will open in October. delivered? My right hon. Friend mentioned the West Midlands Mr Lansley: Yes; my hon. Friend is absolutely right. strategic health authority. In the past six months, the That is why I have made it clear that that is the first authority has required our local Worcestershire NHS to priority for our Department in how we are going to divest itself of its community hospitals. At the moment, improve the NHS. As a nurse, my hon. Friend will know the authority is proposing to abolish the mental health that what she describes is absolutely how many people trust and put it and the community hospitals into a new across the NHS want to conduct their professional trust. Secondly, it has asked NHS Worcestershire to relationships. They have been so frustrated, demoralised cluster with neighbouring NHS organisations. What are and demotivated by not being able to deliver care in the my right hon. Friend’s proposals to stop all those way that they wish—focusing on the needs and expectations reorganisations and focus on patient outcomes? of patients. Mr Lansley: The inquiry will look at both the West Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): Is not the Midlands SHA and its predecessor bodies. My hon. important issue that the terrible events in Mid Staffordshire Friend will know from what I said a couple of weeks are not purely a local issue, terrible though they are for ago that proposals for such reconfigurations in the Mid Staffordshire? It is vital that lessons are learned for national health service must now answer to the clinical application right across the NHS. What were the evidence—the clinical base. They must answer to patients— commissioners doing? Where were the regulators? What current and prospective patient choice—and to the referral price professional accountability? Why was all that allowed intentions and commissioning intentions of general 343 Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation 9 JUNE 2010 344 Trust [Mr Lansley] Point of Order practitioners exercising responsibility for commissioning. That will change the nature of such decisions from a top-down, unaccountable process to one that is much 1.13 pm locally accountable and effective. John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. May I draw your attention Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The excellent to today’s edition of The Daily Telegraph? It announces new Secretary of State for Health was right to praise the a planning policy change on so-called garden grabbing. men and women of the health service, but when things May I ask you to investigate the circumstances of this go wrong there needs to be an early-warning system. case, which appear to be of selective leaking and spin, Does he agree that standardised mortality rates are an and will you report to the House your views on that and indication that something might be going wrong, and your views in general on announcements being made to that such indicators should be used more often to journalists before they are made to Members of the investigate hospitals? House? Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. First, the Francis inquiry will go on to understand why one of Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman those hospital SMRs, from 2003, indicated the nature for his point of order. I hope he will not be shocked, of a potential problem. The SMRs are not a sufficient and the House will not be horrified, to learn that I have measure of quality across the board. The National not yet read The Daily Telegraph today. However, I am Quality Board has already undertaken some work on mindful of the fact that there has been a written ministerial how we can ensure that hospital SMRs are consistent statement on the subject by the Government, so I do and meaningful, and beyond that how we can identify not think it would be correct or accurate to characterise the early-warning signs and act on them. As one of the the situation as one in which the House has not been things we derive from that, I shall be working with the informed of Government policy. I am happy to look at quality board and across the NHS to ensure that we act the piece in question. I will reflect on it. If I have on warning signs, including looking at potential risks anything further to add that the House needs to hear, either across the system or in relation to individual the House will hear it, but otherwise I am inclined to trusts. leave the matter there. Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): Will the inquiry cover the sheer volume of bureaucratic paperwork that nursing staff have to complete, which seriously gets in the way of their fulfilling their clinical responsibilities?

Mr Lansley: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The answer is yes.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to Members for their co-operation. We have got to everybody. 345 9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 346

Identity Documents Bill Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab): The Home Secretary is talking about the abolition of 1.14 pm the scheme. Is she telling the House, and the wider country, that the abolition of the scheme will include The Secretary of State for the Home Department foreign nationals coming to this country? (Mrs Theresa May): I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time. Mrs May: No. I shall come to that point later. There I am very pleased to introduce the first piece of are biometric residency permits for foreign nationals legislation that the new Administration are putting and they are completely separate from the identity card before Parliament. It signals a profound change in the scheme. They were rolled into the ID scheme only way in which Government will interact with the people because the Labour Government were trying desperately they serve. to bolster it; they claimed that the residency permits The national identity card scheme represents the were somehow part of the ID card scheme, which they worst of government. It is intrusive and bullying, ineffective are not. Those biometric residency permits will continue and expensive. It is an assault on individual liberty to exist. which does not promise a greater good. The Bill is, therefore, partly symbolic. It sends a message that the Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): As one of the Labour Government are going to do business in a different way. Members who opposed identity cards from the beginning, We are the servants of the people, not their masters, and I am delighted that the Bill is one of the first pieces of every action that we take must be considered in that legislation that the new Government are putting through. context. Will the Home Secretary say something about people Of course our first duty is to keep people safe. That who went ahead and rather stupidly bought an identity truism cannot be repeated often enough. We will do card? Does she feel that they should be recompensed or whatever it takes to honour that covenant. Sometimes, does she think they should have listened to those of us respecting the rights of the few while protecting the on both sides of the House who said, “This is the wrong many will be a delicate balancing act. Not on this scheme and you shouldn’t be doing that”? occasion. We have no hesitation in making the national identity card scheme an unfortunate footnote in history. Mrs May: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. There it should remain—a reminder of a less happy She does indeed have an honourable record of maintaining time when the Government allowed hubris to trump opposition to identity cards. I will make reference to civil liberties. this point later, but I can tell her now that we will not be Last month, the coalition set out its plans to abolish offering refunds to all those who chose to get an identity ID cards and the national identity register. The register card. [HON.MEMBERS: “Outrageous!”] Labour Front contains the biographic and biometric fingerprint data Benchers shout “Outrageous”, but we made it clear that of cardholders. In bringing forward this stand-alone we were opposed to identity cards. The Liberal Democrat Bill, we are now seeking swift approval to enable us to party made it absolutely clear that it was opposed to abolish both. identity cards. People knew well before the election The Government are of course also bringing forward what would happen if a Conservative Government were a freedom Bill, and will launch a consultation on the elected. laws that the British people want to see repealed. So the Identity Documents Bill is just our first measure as we Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) begin to restore the balance between national security (Lab): Does the Home Secretary recall that the Labour and civil liberties—the crucial, delicate balance which party’s manifesto in 2005 had a commitment to introduce was so carelessly abandoned during Labour’s years in a voluntary ID card scheme? Does she recollect that it office. was the Labour party that won that general election? In what way was it illegitimate—or, indeed, “stupid”, to Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I opposed quote my hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate identity cards from the very beginning and I have not Hoey)—for people then to buy a card that was legitimate changed my views, but will the Home Secretary bear in and had been set out in the manifesto of the winning mind that in 1996 the Conservative Home Secretary, party? Michael Howard, announced that the Conservative Government intended to bring in an identity card scheme? It was described as voluntary—whatever that meant. It Mrs May: I must make a confession; I did not study was not possible to do so for obvious reasons: because the 2005 Labour party manifesto in any great detail of what happened in 1997. because I was too busy promoting the 2005 Conservative party manifesto—[Interruption.] I am not trying to Mrs May: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for rewrite history; the right hon. Gentleman and his party reminding us of what was done in 1996 by a former won the 2005 election and introduced the identity card Conservative Home Secretary and what was proposed. scheme. Let us remember; the scheme was not introduced That Conservative Government did indeed look at the in the very early stages of the Government’s term, but possibility. We have looked at the idea brought forward we made it clear from an early stage that if the Conservative by the Labour Government and we do not think that it party came into government, ID cards would be scrapped. is right. We take a different view, which is that we That was clear to people, and the Minister of State, should abolish the identity card scheme. The hon. Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Gentleman referred to his opposition and indeed a Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling)— number of Labour Members objected to the proposals of their Front-Bench colleagues. Alan Johnson: This is arrogance. 347 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 348

Mrs May: I fail to see how it is arrogant for a political Mr Blunkett: I am sorry for intervening again, but as party to make clear to the electors that if it gets into the House will appreciate, the subject is rather close to government it will pursue a particular policy, to allow my heart. I understand entirely that the document will electors to make a decision as to their actions on the not be useable for travel purposes once the Bill has basis of that knowledge. received Royal Assent, but I understood the right hon. Lady to say that it would not be valid in offering any Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I agree with proof of identity. Just before that, she said that it would the Home Secretary. Has there been any estimate of the be illegal. I am trying to ascertain whether using this cost of continuing the system for those few people who document, which has my fingerprints and photo and is already have identity cards? more authentic than my passport, would make me a criminal were I to use it for other purposes, such as Mrs May: I am coming on to some of the cost issues opening a bank account. but, over the next four years, we will be saving £86 million by getting rid of the identity card scheme, with over Mrs May: I followed the right hon. Gentleman’s £800 million being saved over the next 10 years. argument quite carefully and perhaps I can reprise what I actually said earlier. Under the Bill, the cards will be Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab): invalidated. Holders will not be able to use them either Will the Home Secretary give way? to prove their identity or as a travel document in Europe. On Royal Assent, they will remain valid for only one Mrs May: No, I said that I was going to make some more month. I did not use the word “illegal”, except in progress. I have been quite generous already in taking relation to those who possess equipment for falsifying interventions. documents. I trust that, as a former Home Secretary, the right hon. Gentleman is not intending to hold Much of the Identity Cards Act 2006 will be undone equipment for the falsification of documents. but the Bill will re-enact certain provisions in the 2006 Act that do not relate solely to ID cards. Those provisions Mr Blunkett indicated assent. on offences and passport verification make available powers in relation to the detection and prevention of Mrs May: For the record, the right hon. Gentleman fraud, and the consular fees provision makes it possible nodded at that point. to issue passports at subsidised rates. It will remain an offence to carry an identity document that a person The post of Identity Commissioner will be abolished. knows or believes to be false or to hold a genuine The public panels and experts groups that were established document that relates to someone else, or that has been by the Identity and Passport Service have already been improperly obtained. Also it will remain illegal to possess disbanded, and 60 temporary staff in Durham have equipment for falsifying documents. Under the Bill, ID already been released early. cards will be invalidated. Holders will not be able to use them either to prove their identity or as a travel document Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Will the Home Secretary in Europe. On the passing of the Bill, I will not issue any give way? more cards. Following Royal Assent, cards will remain valid for just one more month. Mrs May: I am going to make a little progress if the hon. Gentleman will wait. Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab): Will the Home Secretary give Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab): way? I am very grateful to the right hon. Lady for doing Will the Home Secretary give way? so. [Laughter.] Mrs May: In deference to the hon. Lady’s constituency interest, I will give way to her. Mrs May: I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman. Roberta Blackman-Woods: I am very grateful. The Mr Blunkett: The right hon. Lady paused and I Home Secretary has just announced that 67 people in believed she had given way. My apologies for that. my constituency were made redundant last week because I have an ID card here. Is the right hon. Lady saying the Government are not continuing identity cards. What that from now on any use of the document to reinforce efforts will her Government make to get jobs for those my identity would be illegal? people who lost them this week, and for those who are likely to lose their jobs because the Government are not Mrs May: I have not said that that is the case from going ahead with the second generation biometric today. I have a rather greater belief in the value of passports? Parliament than the last Labour Government showed. Any provisions will come into force only once the Bill Mrs May: If I can just correct a slight inaccuracy of has been approved by Parliament and has received terminology in the way in which the hon. Lady referred Royal Assent. It is after Royal Assent that cards will to the job losses in Durham, the people concerned were remain valid for one more month only. I will be writing temporary staff on short-term contracts and they have to all those who already have a card to inform them of been released early from those contracts. There are the change, so the right hon. Member for Sheffield, implications to abolishing the previous Labour Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) can look Government’s scheme but, as the hon. Lady, may know, forward in due course to receiving a letter from me. Let we as a Government have considerable proposals for us get this in proportion: fewer than 15,000 people helping people who are unemployed to get into work. already have a card. Our single work programme, which will replace the 349 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 350 previous Government’s proposals for helping people At any time it is utterly wrong for Government to waste into work, will give people much more focused individual taxpayers’ money on a folly. In the current climate, it is help on getting them into the workplace and ensuring obscene. that they are retrained and given the skills that they need. Chris Bryant rose— Chris Bryant: Will the Home Secretary give way? Mrs May: I have relented and I will give way to the Mrs May: No, I am going to make some progress. hon. Gentleman. The Bill also places a duty on me to destroy all information recorded in the national identity register Chris Bryant: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. In within two months of Royal Assent. Photographs and response to my hon. Friend the Member for City of fingerprint biometrics will be securely destroyed. This Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods), she said that the will not be a literal bonfire of the last Government’s staff were on short-term contracts. I should remind her vanities, but it will none the less be deeply satisfying. that she, too, is on a short-term contract, as are all of The national identity register will then cease to exist us. How does she intend to use the provisions of the Bill entirely. in relation to the Consular Fees Act 1980? The Government will always defend the security and integrity of the British passport, in order to safeguard Mrs May: I shall disappoint the hon. Gentleman by the free movement of its citizens abroad and protect our saying that I will not give him a precise answer in borders from illegal immigration. response to that point. We are ensuring that we still have those abilities in the Act to allow discounts on Chris Bryant: Will the Home Secretary give way? applications for passports under the consular fees permission in the Bill. The Bill enables us to retain the Mrs May: If the hon. Gentleman has a little more ability to do that, should we at some stage choose to do patience, I will make more progress. so, but I shall not give the hon. Gentleman a more detailed answer at present. I am sure he can make his Chris Bryant: How much patience? points known during the debate if he chooses to catch the Speaker’s eye. Mrs May: That will be for me to judge in due course. We will continue to work to ensure the free movement Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Will of citizens abroad. We are halting work on fingerprint the Home Secretary give way? passports—the so-called second generation biometric passports—because we believe, in common with the Mrs May: No. I shall go a little further in my speech. USA, Canada, New Zealand and Australia, that we can I return to the subject of savings. The Bill is not just maintain the integrity of our passports by other security about saving money. [Interruption.] Mr. Deputy Speaker, measures. Already a combination of physical and electronic may I be the first to congratulate you on your appointment security features makes the British passport very hard as Chairman of Ways and Means? I look forward to to counterfeit and forge. A new design with improved many debates in the Chamber under your wise rule in physical security features will be issued from 5 October, the Chair. and we are considering ways to strengthen further the electronic security features. If an overwhelming case could be made that ID cards In November 2008 the previous Administration began would keep us safe without intruding on civil liberties, issuing to non-EEA nationals the biometric residency we would find the funding. But that is not the case. permits mentioned in an intervention. I want to reiterate First, if databases are compromised, so too is security. the point that I made in response to that intervention. The Labour Government’s track record on this was For purely political reasons those permits were referred appalling. We all remember the moment the House was to by the previous Government as identity cards for told that HMRC had lost data for 25 million people, foreign nationals. Let no one in the House be in any including their dates of birth, addresses, bank accounts doubt. They are not ID cards, and they will continue. and national insurance numbers, and that was just one example of many. We recognise that some data storage We anticipate that the net cost of the Bill will amount is essential, but these events do not point in the direction to about £5 million this year, which includes termination of a massive expansion of the surveillance state, which of contracts, writing off equipment, contacting cardholders ID cards would necessarily involve. and others to inform them that the project is over, exit costs for staff who cannot be redeployed elsewhere, and Moreover, ID cards would not make us safer or beat payments to contractors for secure destruction of identity benefit fraud. Benefit fraud usually involves people information. I regret that another unavoidable cost is lying about their personal circumstances rather than maintaining the ability to issue new cards before our their identity. Turkish and Spanish ID cards stopped statutory obligation to do so is removed. This is yet neither the Istanbul bombers in 2003 nor the Madrid another example of why we want to act as quickly as bombers in 2004; nor did German ID cards prevent possible. terrorists plotting 9/11 in Hamburg. As Charles Clarke, the former Home Secretary, said after the 7/7 attacks The good news, however, is that the taxpayer, as I said here in London: in answer to a previous intervention, will be saved some £86 million over the next four years. Moreover, the “I doubt”— public will not be hit with the roughly £800 million of that ID cards— ongoing costs over the next 10 years. To put that in “would have made a difference. I’ve never argued...thatID perspective, that is a millennium dome’s worth of savings. cards would prevent any particular act.” 351 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 352

Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I urge Members in all parts of the House to vote with The right hon. Lady is right that ID cards did not stop their conscience, and to show their constituents that the bombing in Madrid, but does she accept that ID they stand for freedom, sound expenditure and common cards in Spain allowed the bombers to be traced from sense. The case for ID cards has not been made and will the fingerprints on the Atocha bombs? not be. It is an extension of state power that we cannot, in any sense, afford. I commend the Bill to the House. Mrs May: The point that I am making is a simple one. The last Labour Government claimed that this 1.38 pm would be—[Interruption.] A shadow Minister on the Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) Front Bench says, “No. we didn’t.” As I had not said (Lab): I feel honoured, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to be the what I was going to say the Government had claimed, I subject of your first pronouncements from the Chair. It suggest that she is being a little premature, or perhaps will be a pleasure to serve under you. she is learning the ways of opposition rather earlier We on the Labour Benches will not vote against the than some of her colleagues. Bill on Second Reading. Although we do not think the Many claims were made at various times about what general election was in any way a referendum on ID the Government said. One of them was that the purpose cards, we accept that the Conservatives and the Liberal of ID cards was to keep this country safe. The examples Democrats have a mandate to abandon the measure. We that I gave show that ID cards do not keep this country believe that the 15,000 cards already in use should safe and are an intrusion into civil liberties. The imposition continue to be a legitimate form of identity, and that of an enormously expensive system, which will be a those citizens who have purchased them should not be target for computer hackers, might result in greater treated in the unfair and arrogant way that the Home identity fraud and would not make us safer cannot be Secretary proposed: it is arrogant to punish the public justified. because the Government believe that the public were There is one other objection to such an extension of duty bound to presume a Conservative victory at the the state’s surveillance powers, and it is one that Labour general election. That is constitutional nonsense and I never understood: it is unBritish. We are a freedom-loving have never heard anything so arrogant from a political people, and we recognise that intrusive government party in my life. does not enhance our well-being or safety. In 2004 the We think a version of the national identity register Mayor of London promised to eat his ID card in must continue to exist in some form, and that second front of generation biometric passports need to go ahead. However, “whatever emanation of the state has demanded that I produce we will pursue those arguments in Committee and at it.” other stages of the Bill’s passage. I will not endorse civil disobedience, but Boris Johnson In recent times, my party has been consistently in was expressing in his own inimitable way a discomfort favour of an identity card scheme, the Liberal Democrats even stronger than the discomfort to be had from eating have been consistently opposed and the Conservatives an ID card. It is a discomfort born of a very healthy and have been inconsistent to the point of perversity. The British revulsion towards bossy, interfering, prying, wasteful Bill before us to abandon a voluntary identity card and bullying Government. The coalition Government scheme, which the right hon. Lady says is intrusive, are determined to do things differently. bullying and unBritish, was in the first semi-Conservative—I I pay tribute to all those who have campaigned so suppose we could call it—Queen’s Speech for almost vigorously for the abolition of ID cards. They include 14 years. N02ID, Liberty, and the parties that make up the coalition The irony is that the previous Queen’s Speech under a Government. I am also grateful that Members in other Tory Administration, in November 1996, included a parts of the House, including Labour Members, as Bill to introduce a voluntary ID card scheme, following indicated earlier, have had the integrity to speak out extensive public consultation by the then Home Secretary, and vote against the issue and, in the case of Labour Michael Howard, who said that the potential benefits Members, against those on their Front Bench. Indeed, fell into two categories. It is worth repeating them to the Labour Members may even find that voting for the House. This was a Conservative Government, proposing abolition of ID cards curries favour with the next leader a Bill at the Queen’s Speech—[Interruption.] “Fifteen of their party although, with the notable exception of years ago,” says the Minister for Immigration. We will the hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington get on to what has changed in the almost 15 years since (Ms Abbott), none of the leadership candidates appears 1996, and how the problems that led that Conservative to have taken an interest in civil liberties. Government to put forward an “unBritish, bullying and intrusive” Bill have actually worsened in the ensuing Let me read to the House what the hon. Member for period. However, Michael Howard summed up the Hackney North and Stoke Newington said during her benefits succinctly, noting first, the impassioned speech against the Identity Cards Bill in 2005: “direct benefits to the individual holder (e.g. through use of an “As the evening has worn on, the Government Whips have identity card as a travel card or to provide reliable proof of subjected several of my colleagues to their usual rough-hew identity including for commercial transactions)”; methods of persuasion. However, I say to colleagues in the closing minutes of the debate that voting against the Bill would be and, secondly, far from betraying our Government or going against Labour “the wider benefits to all citizens, (e.g. by reducing the level of principles, because we would be doing the Government a great certain crimes or by providing more efficient or less costly provision service. The more the public hear of the Bill, the less they like it, of state services).” so the sooner it is stopped in its tracks, the better.”—[Official That description of the benefits is as accurate today Report, 28 June 2005; Vol. 435, c. 1248-9.] as it was then. The consultation under the Conservative I could not agree more. Government found that 64% of the public supported 353 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 354

ID cards, with 36% opposed, and the last Tory Government I should at this point mention the strange episode of to be elected to power in their own right—perhaps the the ten-minute Bill in January 2002, when the then last in more ways than one—proceeded to include the Member for Broxtowe, now sadly no longer a Member, measure in the Gracious Speech. proposed leave to introduce an identity card Bill. The House will know that on a ten-minute Bill only the Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I, too, die-hard supporters of a proposition will turn up to very much welcome you to the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker. vote, but among that bunch of ID card zealots, those Does my right hon. Friend understand the concerns people who wanted an “unBritish, intrusive and anti- of my constituents, who have been in touch having democratic” scheme, we find the former shadow Home bought that voluntary ID card precisely for the reasons Secretary, now the Minister of State, Department for that he just gave? They saw it as an opportunity to get Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Epsom and proof of identity without going down the route of Ewell (Chris Grayling), the current Leader of the House, obtaining a passport and to have something in their and a whole bunch of their Conservative colleagues. pocket? Does he also understand their concerns in To listen to the Home Secretary speak today, one writing to me and asking me to vote against this measure would never believe that she once walked through the because they want either to get some recompense for Aye Lobby in support of ID cards. I have to reveal that the card that they have bought, or, if hon. Members will she did. Members should listen to her speech today, or pardon the pun, to passport it for use in another way? read it again in Hansard, and then recall that the Home Secretary supported Second Reading of the Identity Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend should write and tell Cards Bill on 20 December 2004; and she was not a them that the Government believe—this Government, Tory rebel: she voted with her party in support of that who believe in the big society and in listening to people— Bill, whose measures she now seeks to repeal. The that the scheme into which they bought, which Parliament Conservatives continued to give their support. Indeed, approved at every stage and which was in the 2005 manifesto they supported it under the leadership of Michael Howard of the party that was elected to government, is somehow at the 2005 general election. illegitimate. His constituents should realise that it was The right hon. Lady now says that people were their mistake in not presuming a victory for the Tory foolish to go out and buy ID cards, but both main party at the recent general election. That seems to be the parties at that general election supported ID cards, so reason. the proposition that they should be removed is quite That description of the benefits to which I referred is extraordinary. The Conservatives continued to give their accurate, and the consultation carried out by the previous support right into the 2005 general election, when Labour’s Conservative Government showed overwhelming public winning manifesto pledged support. The Labour Government resuscitated the “to provide citizens with a…secure identity card to protect them…from proposals and subjected them to a fresh, six-month identity theft and clamp down on illegal working and fraudulent public consultation and further scrutiny in the form of use of public services.” a draft Bill in 2003. The Select Committee on Home Why does the Home Secretary now believe that it was Affairs held a simultaneous inquiry, and the outcome of an infringement of civil liberties, the cause of the end of all that was, again, overwhelming public support. civilisation as we know it, when she voted for that precise scheme in 2004? Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I am trying desperately to understand the right hon. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I thank Gentleman’s position. He still seems to be for ID cards, the right hon. Gentleman for giving way and welcome but he will not oppose the Bill this evening. What is the you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to your position. Does the Labour party’s position on ID cards? Can we expect to right hon. Gentleman realise that only a few days ago see them in a future Labour party manifesto? the head of the TUC, Brendan Barber, said that the scheme would have been an expensive folly and an Alan Johnson: That is to be determined by the party. unwelcome intrusion into people’s private liberties and However, we cannot suggest that we did not lose the lives? Does he also know that the TUC head said that election; we cannot simply oppose every measure that he welcomed and supported this Government’s proposals the Government propose. We have to ensure that we to get rid of ID cards? Given Labour’s current financial consider the will of the people. I do not doubt that the circumstances, is it wise to ignore paymasters in that way? mandate of the two parties in government allows them to introduce the measure before us, but they are absolutely Alan Johnson: The TUC is a lot of things, but it is not wrong to cancel the national identity register, to say that a paymaster. I was not aware that Brendan Barber had they will not go ahead with second-generation biometric said that, but if that is his view he is perfectly entitled to passports and, most of all, as my hon. Friend the express it. I am setting out the views of the current Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello) said, Home Secretary and the Conservative party on Second to take such an arrogant and dismissive approach to the Reading on 20 December 2004 of the Bill whose British public. measures they now seek to repeal. Indeed, they are not The Home Secretary said that ID cards would be just seeking to repeal that legislation, but describing made a footnote to history, so let us carry on with the in extraordinarily derogatory terms anyone who history. The Conservative Government proposed ID supported it. cards and undertook public consultation; Labour I quoted our precise manifesto commitment in 2005. resuscitated the proposal; the Home Affairs Committee We were in the course of carrying out that commitment, supported it; public scrutiny supported it; and the draft and everyone recognised that it would be a long process, Bill gained overwhelming support. but it began with the Tories’ enthusiastic support at the 355 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 356

[Alan Johnson] through the Aye Lobby with us. I do not agree that the tests were not met. My point, however, is that the 2005 general election, and ended with their bitter opposition. Conservatives are now in government. They can carry How do we explain the Conservative party’s change out the proposal that was in the Queen’s Speech in 1996 from hard-headed pragmatists to the political wing of and meet the tests that they set. Liberty? In respect of the issues that galvanised the That debate took place on 20 December 2004, three Conservatives to act in the 1996 Queen’s Speech and years after 9/11 and, unfortunately, seven months before 7/7, support the Identity Cards Bill on Second Reading in and before the airline bomb plot, the liquid bomb plot, 2004, the only change is that the problems that they and all the other terrorist outrages that we have had to sought to address have become more acute. counter. The right hon. Gentleman cannot say that The mantra of the Conservatives and the Liberal anything has changed in relation to national security Democrats is civil liberties, but the Home Secretary except that these problems are more acute. We are at a should remember that when we talk about civil liberties— severe level of readiness. No one on the Government our basic freedoms—we are not talking solely about the Benches can say, “Well, things have changed since 1996,” rights of individuals but about the rights of society as a or since 2004. They have changed—they have got worse, whole. We are talking about the right to be able to travel and that has made the case for ID cards stronger. freely, the right to have access to efficient and effective public services, and the right to live our lives free from Several hon. Members rose— crime. ID cards, biometric passports and the national Alan Johnson: I will make some progress and then identity register that supported them were designed give way. precisely to protect those freedoms, but at the same time Of course, for the Government, as the Home Secretary to help to increase security—the security of each individual’s said, it is conveniently symbolic to have this debate so identity, the security of our borders and, yes, an added early on in this Session of Parliament. It is a symbolic layer of security in the fight against terrorism. act to prove that the coalition can actually agree on The Home Secretary might like to be aware, because something, as it certainly cannot agree on Europe, the she mentioned it, that it was not me who first pointed alternative vote, or even the Human Rights Act. out the link with terrorism—it was the right hon. Member It is certainly true that the Prime Minister and the for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), who is, I Deputy Prime Minister have been consistently smug in confess, not normally guilty of any inconsistency. During suggesting that a simple ID card scheme will mean the the Second Reading debate in 2004, he said, as shadow end of civilisation as we know it. Not for nothing are Home Secretary at this very Dispatch Box: the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister “I would not have countenanced ID cards before 11 September. known as the self-righteous brothers, although they are After that, however, I accept that we must consider them. After bound to have lost that loving feeling before too long. 11 September, it is incumbent on all of us to examine carefully The Deputy Prime Minister has a Dutch mother and a any measures that might enhance the nation’s security. Identity cards introduced properly and effectively may help to do that.”— Spanish wife, so he should know that the claim that ID [Official Report, 20 December 2004; Vol. 428, c. 1953.] cards are an affront to liberty and freedom would be That is what he said as shadow Home Secretary. greeted with bemusement in Holland, Spain, France, Finland, Sweden, Italy, Switzerland, Germany and all the other countries that have managed to provide their Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): citizens with the cards’ pragmatic advantages without My right hon. Friend—I will call him that, because he becoming despotic oligarchies. knows our relationship—is carefully not quoting the rest of the speech or saying what actually happened. The Bill has provisions to keep the clauses of the What we did at that time was to give the Government of 2006 Act that relate to false documentation, and we the day the benefit of the doubt because there had just welcome that, but we need much more than penalties been some terrorist events that obviously brought the for false documents if we are to win the fight against country into some risk. We therefore said, “We will identity fraud and illegal immigration. support the Government on this, under five tests”—they David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): Was it the were very fond of five tests in those days. The five tests shadow Home Secretary’s intention that it would be were that the Government could control the cost of the compulsory for everyone to have ID cards? If not, how programme, which they did not; protect the privacy of on earth could they help to prevent terrorism, benefit the individual, which they did not; manage it competently, fraud or anything else, given that the people who were which they did not; protect the security of the data, likely to commit those acts were unlikely to apply for an which they did not; and show its effectiveness against ID card? terrorism and crime, which they did not. That is why we opposed it. Alan Johnson: That is a very good point. No, it was not my intention to make the cards compulsory. Indeed, Alan Johnson rose— we made it absolutely plain that people could use their biometric passport as an identity document or use an Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Before ID card, which was a smaller, simpler, cheaper version. the right hon. Member replies, may I remind people France has a voluntary ID card scheme, as do many that interventions should be very short? countries in Europe that would not go to the compulsory stage, and it helps people to protect and prove their Alan Johnson: I apologise to my right hon. Friend in identity, which is the fundamental reason behind it. As I this broad coalition, but I do not have time to quote the said, it was the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and whole speech. Of course he made those points in that Howden who mentioned the link with terrorism, not very important debate, after which the Tories walked moi. 357 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 358

Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): My is—that the Government have reneged on their pledge right hon. Friend is making a customarily amusing yet to scrap that database. We already have the Driver and powerful contribution to the debate. He is wise to Vehicle Licensing Agency database for those with a accept the mandate of the coalition Government, whereby driving licence and the passport database with information they believe that they have a right to dismantle their on 80% of the people in this country—exactly the same version of the surveillance state. Does he agree, however, information as is on the ID card. that the Bill does not remove any obligation on any All that we want to do is make it easier for banks, Department to verify people’s identity, so there will be GPs and employers to verify someone’s identity and no less identity verification going on? If the Government thereby make it much more difficult for people to create really want to reduce the surveillance state, they should multiple identities and commit identity fraud. That give citizens ownership of their data so that Departments crime costs our economy £1.2 billion every year and has do not continually data-share—there might be more of increased by 20% in the first quarter of this year alone. that as a result of the Bill—and have a transparency Combating identity fraud protects the security not just register that means that every occurrence of data-sharing of individuals but of all of us collectively. Drug dealers, that goes on between Departments is in the public people traffickers and terrorists depend on access to domain so that people have the right to challenge it? false documents. Having no simple method of establishing and recording someone’s identity simply plays into their Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend makes a very powerful hands, as the police have said in numerous submissions, point; he has a good track record in this area. He is as the Conservative party stated in its pronouncements highlighting the real issues of civil liberties, which are before the 2005 election and as the public have said in not only to do with a simple identity card to prove and every consultation held by Governments of both protect identity but a whole range of other issues that I persuasions over the past 14 years. The introduction of shall come to in a moment. ID cards was linked to the switch to biometric passports, Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con) rose— with all the costs intertwined. The national identity register is crucial to both, for reasons that I shall Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Will explain in a moment. the right hon. Gentleman give way? Conor Burns: Does the right hon. Gentleman accept Alan Johnson: No, I need to make some progress. that the scheme would be successful on none of those If we want to travel abroad, take an internal flight, points unless it were, in time, to move towards being open a bank account, take up a new job, register with a compulsory? People who are going to commit crimes doctor, get a driving licence or get married, we need to would not participate in a voluntary scheme. During prove our identity. No one would dispute that it is my early years in Northern Ireland, people were compelled perfectly reasonable to have to provide proof of identity to carry photographic driving licences whether they in such circumstances. For those who voluntarily acquire were drivers or not. That fundamentally altered the an ID card, it enables them to prove who they are relationship between the citizen and the state, in a quickly, easily and securely. It provides a universal and profoundly detrimental way. simple proof of identity and a convenient end to the disorganised use of a year’s worth of photocopied bank Alan Johnson: The hon. Gentleman raises an important statements that people have to hand over—phone bills, point, which has rather bedevilled this debate, as the birth certificates and so on, all copied to numerous right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden well different places because of the ways that people have to knows. There was a confusion among the public and prove their identity. The Conservatives agreed about politicians about whether the scheme would be compulsory that almost unanimously in 1996 and again in 2004. For or voluntary, and the whole debate in 2004 and subsequently those lucky enough to be blessed with youthful good was about whether future Parliaments would have the looks—like you and me, Mr Deputy Speaker—it also opportunity to declare the scheme compulsory. It would provides proof of age. For those who are less well-off, it have taken a vote of Parliament, but yes, that was provides a cheap and convenient alternative to a passport implicit in the legislation. for European travel. It enables people easily to access the services to which they are entitled. The fact that a In the debate on 20 December 2004, Charles Clarke, robust and trusted form of identification can be a tool who is sadly no longer in the House, said in his very first for empowerment is something that the Government address to the House as Home Secretary, “Don’t vote have ignored in all their posturing on civil liberties. for this Bill if you don’t want to see ID cards become compulsory.”The current Home Secretary voted for the Mr Buckland: The right hon. Gentleman talked about Bill. I can only imagine what she would say if we other countries in Europe and gave us a long list without proposed a compulsory ID cards scheme, having heard deviation, hesitation or repetition, but can he say whether her rhetoric about how a voluntary scheme is the end of one of them introduced a national identity register? civilisation. However, she voted for that scheme on the That is unique to this country, and an unprecedented clear statement of the then Home Secretary that Members complete disaster. should vote for it only if they wanted it to become compulsory. I disagree with a compulsory scheme and Alan Johnson: Yes––France. believe that we can have simple proof and protection of There was nothing Big Brotherish about the system people’s identities without it becoming compulsory. that we were implementing. We already have the NHS Second-generation biometric passports, planned to database for those registered with GPs. Incidentally, I commence in 2012, would provide a crucial additional note from yesterday’s Independent—I do not know whether level of security, enabling verification that the person it is true, but if we have read it in the papers, it probably presenting a passport had the same fingerprints as 359 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 360

[Alan Johnson] passports and leave our country more vulnerable to attack. It is beyond me to understand how the new those encoded on the chip. Amazingly, the Liberal Home Secretary could have been lulled into that decision. Democrats appear to have convinced the Tories in their Identity fraud, illegal immigration, terrorism and organised political pre-nup to scrap second-generation passports. crime are international problems, and it makes sense for Britain to continue working with our international Robert Flello: There were appalling events fairly recently neighbours to tackle them. Biometric passports are part involving British passports being used in state-sponsored of an international drive to make travel documents terrorism. Would not that extra layer perhaps have more secure. Their electronic security features, including prevented that atrocity? fingerprints, are a significant impediment to forgers and counterfeiters, and we need to keep pace with our Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend pre-empts a crucial neighbours if the UK passport is to continue to be point that I shall come on to in a moment. recognised as having the highest integrity. There was no mention of scrapping second-generation Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): I, too, congratulate biometric passports in the Conservative manifesto. In you on your illustrious elevation, Mr Deputy Speaker. fact, the Tories have not only been in favour of biometrics but wholeheartedly and enthusiastically in favour In Dover, people are concerned that border security of them. The hon. and learned Member for Harborough has been lax for years. Why did the right hon. Gentleman (Mr Garnier) summed up the matter in 2007 when not put more energy into dealing with the security of he said: our borders? If he had done that rather than dealing with ID cards, maybe we would have had less illegal “There is not a Conservative Member…who disagrees with the immigration. notion that there should be biometric passports.”—[Official Report, 5 February 2007; Vol. 456, c. 671.] Alan Johnson: That intervention was not worth waiting The Prime Minister himself has admitted that for. We put considerable effort into securing our borders. “there is a need for the use of biometrics on passports”. As he represents Dover, he will know that the chief Why the change of heart when we know that by locking constable of Kent has seen the number of illegal immigrants people to one identity using advanced passport technology, roving around the county reduced by 92% since my we would help protect our country against the use of right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside multiple identities by criminals, illegal immigrants and and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) went over and did a terrorists? Why, given that updating our passports would deal with Sarkozy, who was then the Interior Minister, bring us in line with the rest of Europe, which has and shut down Sangatte. We have taken every measure already set minimum passport standards to include possible. If the hon. Gentleman is interested in the facial and fingerprint biometrics, do we intend to allow security of his constituents in Dover, I tell him that I am our country to become an easy target for illegal immigration talking about the current Government abandoning second- and our citizens to be subject to onerous checks at generation biometric passports, probably on the basis airports and ferry ports around the world? We had of a decision at the hippy commune known as the already introduced facial recognition image biometrics Liberal Democrat conference. That is an incredible in British passports in 2006, but now the countries in decision. the Schengen agreement are going further and the US On funding, the Government claim that scrapping has already imposed a fingerprint requirement on all the scheme will produce an initial £84 million in savings visitors who have not historically required a visa—in in the next four years. I would be extremely interested to other words, those from the UK. learn how the Home Secretary came to that figure. On I turn to the important point that my hon. Friend the none of the statistics I saw when I was doing her job Member for Stoke-on-Trent South raised. In March, only three weeks ago does that make sense. Seventy per when I was Home Secretary and sitting alongside the cent. of the start-up costs for ID cards are linked to then Foreign Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member first-generation biometric passports, to ensure that they for South Shields (David Miliband), the House heard fall into line with international standards. Those costs about the inquiry carried out by the Serious Organised are unavoidable and the money is committed, so where Crime Agency, at the request of the Dubai authorities, does the £84 million come from? into how 12 people with joint UK-Israeli citizenship had had their passports cloned without their knowledge. Steve McCabe: Does my right hon. Friend agree that Those were pre-biometric passports. Second-generation the Home Secretary needs to publish the detail of those biometrics would make such cloning impossible. Indeed, alleged savings? All we have heard today is how she is the current Foreign Secretary, who was then shadowing going to rip-off 15,000 people who have already paid the position, when that statement was made, said: for the card. “The Foreign Secretary said that the biometric passports introduced four years ago are more difficult to counterfeit. Does he consider Alan Johnson: Indeed—and for the grand sum of these new passports to be as invulnerable to counterfeiting as it is £1 million, which she will save by not giving pensioners possible to make them, or will the Government review whether and students their money back on the cards they acquired any other steps are needed to protect the integrity of British because they had the temerity not to forecast a Conservative passports? Is there any suggestion that British passports are more victory at the general election. We will question that vulnerable than those of other countries, including other EU more closely in Committee. countries?”—[Official Report, 23 March 2010; Vol. 508, c. 135.] No, there was not such a suggestion then, but there is Paul Goggins: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend now that, amazingly and incredibly, this Government for giving way; I was unfortunately unable to persuade are planning to abandon second-generation biometric the Home Secretary to take an intervention on refunds. 361 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 362

I am seeking my right hon. Friend’s support for a Alan Johnson: That precise point has been made by suggestion made to me by one of my constituents, and Liberty, which opposes ID cards—[Interruption.] An perhaps the Government will also consider it. If the hon. Member says that Liberty does not make that Government are unwilling to refund those who applied point, but it does, on the basis that ID cards for foreign for a passport and paid the £30 in good faith, perhaps nationals will be compulsory. Although it is a card with they would consider giving a credit to all card holders fingerprints and biometric identification, we cannot for the next time they apply for a passport. now call it an ID card, which is really silly—it must be called a “permit” or “warrant” or some such thing. Alan Johnson: That is a sensible suggestion, except Liberty says that either everyone should have a card, that some people who have ID cards do not have which is novel for Liberty, or no one should have one. passports. They are part of that 20% of the population who generally will not have a driving licence or bank Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD) rose— account. We used to call them the socially excluded—indeed, the Government are supposed to be wedded to the idea Alan Johnson: I will not give way because I am about of helping them—and many of them will not have that to conclude. facility because they do not have a passport, but my My final point is that the Government intend not hon. Friend’s point is relevant, and I shall address it only to stop issuing cards, but to make the 15,000 already further shortly. in circulation illegal. I find that despicable, and I do not think that that is too strong a word. How can any Roberta Blackman-Woods: Does my right hon. Friend Government seek to punish hundreds of thousands of agree that the Home Secretary must also cost in the its citizens for having the temerity to take advantage of additional cost in unemployment benefit that must be a scheme that was pledged in a manifesto, supported in paid to my constituents if they do not manage to secure law and introduced in an entirely legitimate way? alternative employment when they lose their jobs because [Interruption.] The Home Secretary is chuntering from of the Government’s decision? the Front Bench, but I will gladly take an intervention. Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend might get an answer to that from the Home Secretary. Perhaps those staff Mrs May: If I heard the right hon. Gentleman correctly, should not have had the temerity to take those jobs, he claims that somehow we are going to punish “hundreds because they should have known that the Conservatives of thousands of citizens,” but actually, fewer than 15,000 were going to win the next general election. This is the people hold those cards. Perhaps he would like to new, bizarre world in which we are living. correct the record. Abolishing the national identity register would save Alan Johnson: Fifteen thousand is a significant number very little for three reasons: first, all the information of people—[Interruption.] On Monday, the Deputy held on our existing passport database will continue to Prime said that he had made a slip of the tongue when be held; secondly, that information will need to be held he told one of my hon. Friends that the Government securely, as it is now; and thirdly, we will still need to will certainly campaign for a yes vote in a Welsh referendum collect and securely hold the fingerprints of foreign to devolve powers to Wales, and I think I am entitled to nationals on a database. make a similar slip of the tongue. Of course I am The Government’s claim that scrapping ID cards will talking not about hundreds of thousands of people—it save £800 million in operating costs over the next 10 years would have been if the scheme had gone on a few is utter fantasy. We always proceeded on the basis of months longer—but thousands, and 15,000 is a significant full cost recovery and made it perfectly clear that over number of people. 10 years, the operating costs of ID cards would be Those in possession of identity cards ought to be able recovered through fees, so there would no charge on to continue to use them as a legitimate form of general taxation over that period. However, if there are identification, and to travel in Europe and access services. no ID cards, there is no charge for ID cards, and At the very least, they should receive a refund, or the therefore no way of recovering the costs. By cancelling Government should take up the suggestion of my right the scheme, the Government remove the income stream hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale but leave the cancellation costs, which the taxpayer will East (Paul Goggins) and offer a discount off future be forced to pay, and let us not forget the continuing purchases. The Government should be ashamed of cost to the economy of fraud, abuse of the NHS, illegal themselves for even thinking that they could treat people immigration and unauthorised working. By cancelling with such off-hand arrogance, and they must look again the scheme, the Government will make not a saving, but at that aspect of the Bill. a substantial loss. The Opposition remain unconvinced by the Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op): Does my Government’s arguments for scrapping ID cards. The right hon. Friend share my concern that our black and money saved will not pay for 3,000 extra police officers, Asian British constituents will come under suspicion, as the Lib Dems claimed. In the long term, the proposals because some in authority will assume that they ought will cost us more money, hamper the efforts of the to have the card that foreign nationals must carry? We police to tackle identity fraud, and weaken rather than will have a return of the sus laws, because there will be defend civil liberties. Illegalising cards that have already double standards: one towards black and Asian migrants been issued will penalise those who bought them in and British citizens who might be suspected of being good faith, including pensioners and students. Scrapping migrants, and another towards other British citizens. second generation biometric passports will threaten our Can the Home Secretary or a Home Office Minister borders and encourage illegal immigration, because our assure us that there will be no increase in stop-and-search passport technology will lag behind that of our European or sus law-type provisions against black and Asian neighbours. I urge the Government to rethink this British citizens? expensive, misguided and spiteful little Bill. 363 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 364

Several hon. Members rose— Portsmouth fought on opposing sides during the civil war, and I am proud to say that on that occasion Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. A limit of 12 minutes on Gosport was on the side of Parliament. Gosport is a speeches has been applied by Mr Speaker. constituency of contrasts. It may be part of the affluent south of England, but it has pockets of shocking 2.18 pm deprivation. I have met kids in my school visits who talk of things that young children should never have to Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Thank you, experience. Thinking of my own seven-year-old son, it Mr Deputy Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to makes me so determined to work hard and change address the House for the first time, and in this fascinating things for them. debate, on a day when we are both maidens together—I would not comment on which of us is the fairer. Conversely, we have stunning waterfronts, the beauty As is customary, I pay tribute to my predecessor, of Stokes bay looking over to the Isle of Wight and the Sir Peter Viggers, who served as a Member of the Falklands memorial gardens, with their amazing views House for 36 years, having been elected in 1974. Most across the harbour. There is also evidence of Gosport’s notably, he was a junior Minister for Northern Ireland, distinguished military heritage everywhere: HMS Sultan, and over the years was a member of the Select Committee which was one of the earliest Royal Flying Corps airfields on Defence and the Treasury Committee. I wish Sir Peter in the country, and the military hospital Haslar, which and Lady Viggers a very happy, restful, long and happy first received patients in 1754. It later took patients retirement, and my sincere hope is that they are both from conflicts such as the battle of Trafalgar, and able to reflect upon many long years of public service, Queen Victoria described it as the noblest of institutions. and not upon the events that dominated the last 12 months Reading my predecessor’s maiden speech in 1974, it of the previous Parliament. staggers me how many of the Royal Navy establishments Another notable predecessor was Lord Palmerston, that he described have been stripped from Gosport in who may well have approved of the latest coalition: the past 30 years—not only that noble hospital at having started political life as a Conservative Member Haslar, but submarine base HMS Dolphin and Daedalus of Parliament, he crossed the Floor of the House to air base. We still have a range of military facilities join the Whigs, was elected as the first MP for South including for engineering training and helicopter Hampshire in 1832 and of course went on to become maintenance, but the prospect of shutting any more of Prime Minister. As a humble new girl, and the first those bases would be a disaster for my constituency. woman to represent Gosport, I am conscious of being a Any thought of moving the Royal Navy engineering bit behind the drag curve. Being 13 years older—I do school at HMS Sultan to Wales would be a huge not admit that freely—than Lord Palmerston when he upheaval for those from Portsmouth-based ships and was offered the job as Chancellor of the Exchequer, and their families, as well as a vast and unnecessary drain on given that I did not catch the Prime Minister’s eye three the defence budget. If amalgamation of engineering weeks ago, when he filled that job, I suspect I will drop training is so vital, why not bring the Royal Air Force further behind my illustrious predecessor. and Army to Gosport and save huge amounts of money? We would welcome them with open arms, and it would It is customary in a maiden speech to speak glowingly save a huge sum. about one’s new constituency. Although a duty, it is also an enormous pleasure, because Gosport could be described Of course, the crowning glory of Gosport is its very as my dream seat. The Gosport constituency includes special people, with their strength of character, warmth not only the historic town of Gosport, but the charming of spirit, good humour and generosity—not to mention seaside resort of Lee on Solent, the beautiful coastal their immaculate good taste at election time. However, village of Hill Head and the equally lovely rural village recent Governments have starved the peninsula of of Stubbington. The man I call “Mr Gosport”, Councillor infrastructure. We are the largest town in Britain with Peter Edgar, tells of a Gosport legend in which King no railway station. Our one major access road, the Stephen and his brother Bishop Henry de Blois were on infamous A32, has no dual carriageways and is blocked a little medieval ship that was caught in a fierce storm in for much of the day. That is made worse as much of the the Solent. In danger of drowning, they were rescued by population has to commute out to work because huge some brave fishermen who took them ashore in Gosport, swathes of housing were built to match the targets of at which point the bishop struck the ground with his the previous Government but no jobs were created to stick and named the place “God’s Port Our Haven”—that match them. is where Gosport got its name—and rewarded them Also under the previous Government, the wonderful with profitable markets and fairs. It is a good story—royalty Haslar hospital was closed. It was not only the last in danger, a brave rescue and a good reward—and will remaining military hospital in the country but a well-used always remain part of the story of Gosport. So, too, community resource. Now Gosport is inadequately served will the true story of Bishop Godfrey de Lucy, who in for accident and emergency and other services, and this 1204 was commissioned by King John to build a fleet of great hospital sits there in a mummified state of limbo ships to recapture Normandy from the French. So at a time when we need military hospitals so badly. This began Gosport’s 800-year history as a vital part in the is why I have chosen to talk in this debate: the billions of defence of the realm. Indeed, England has never been pounds already spent on identity cards were badly involved in a major conflict without Gosport playing its needed elsewhere for roads, better housing and to save part, right up to the modern day: we have just welcomed that hospital. The good people of Gosport should be back 33 Field Hospital from Afghanistan. free to get on with their lives, with their jobs and with There is a common misconception that Gosport is raising their families, and not have to share information near Portsmouth, but as my constituents will explain, it about themselves unless it is for a good reason. They is Portsmouth that is near Gosport. Gosport and should not have every personal detail stored on a national 365 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 366 register. It is appropriate for me to support the abolition auction it off because my grandchildren will want to of identity cards as a small gesture towards acknowledging hold it in their hands. They will say, “Granddad, what the freedom of this nation’s people, given that Gosport was so terrible about this card that you paid £30 for it? has done so much to deliver the freedom of both this Did it involve you actually having to give deeply private and other nations around the world. information that was going to be shared with the rest of the world, or be intruded upon by criminals who were 2.26 pm going to steal the information that was registered when you took up the card?” I will have to say to them, “I’m Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and terribly sorry, but that didn’t happen. It was never going Hillsborough) (Lab): I congratulate the hon. Member to happen, but people believed it was going to happen.” for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) on a feisty maiden My grandchildren will say, “Did they really believe speech, demanding that her constituency get a greater that? Do I understand from reading the history books share of resources and investment from the Government, that people believed it was going to cost £2.5 billion, and I wish her well in that endeavour. I also congratulate and that they were going to employ 3,000 extra police you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on your election. I intend to officers?” I shall say, “Yes, they did.” My grandchildren be brief, because my right hon. Friend the shadow will ask, “Did they go to school, granddad? Did they do Home Secretary’s speech was excellent and put forward mathematics? Did they have any grasp of economics?” I in considerable detail a great deal of what I would shall say, “No, they were substantially driven by the otherwise have needed to say. I speak as the former Liberal Democrats,” and that the Deputy Prime Minister Home Secretary who published the Bill to which he from 2010 onwards, who was the leader of the Liberal referred extensively and which was supported by senior Democrats, actually believed his own rhetoric. Conservative Members. However, I do not want to cover old ground; instead I want to admit to one or two I have a lot of time for the new Home Secretary. I like mistakes, and touch on what may have happened since. her personally, and I do not believe that she believed a word of the adjectival hyperbole with which she started I need to be contrite enough to congratulate Phil her speech. She does not believe that the scheme was Booth from NO2ID, Dr Whitley from the London going to cost billions or that money that had never been School of Economics identity project, and others, for raised would have been spent on projects that could not the tremendous campaign that they have run, over the be funded because the money being spent on the register past five years in particular, to stop this scheme. I and the ID card was not coming from the taxpayer or congratulate them because they changed the culture from those purchasing the passport and the ID card. and atmosphere around, and attitudes towards the scheme She does not believe that, but she has been forced to, and its intentions in a way that those of us initially because of the coalition agreement, which the Conservatives involved could not have conceived. In doing so, they and Liberal Democrats sat down one afternoon to work have persuaded large swathes of the normally well-informed out. Presumably, the new Chief Secretary managed to population, including vast swathes of the media, that persuade the right hon. Member for Richmond (Yorks) the identity cards scheme and the second generation (Mr Hague), now the Foreign Secretary, that he had got biometric register were intended to impact on the public it completely wrong, making it necessary to do away not and intrude on their civil liberties in a way that was only with the ID card—which, as the Home Secretary never intended and was never going to happen. That said, is symbolic—but with second generation biometric they were wrong should not mislead us into passports. The Foreign Secretary was persuaded that misunderstanding what can happen in a vigorous afternoon, and the Government and the country are democracy, and how careful we have to be in explaining now lumbered. What an odd way to carry on. our intentions and taking on arguments openly. I do not know whether the new Chief Secretary has It is because we have such a vigorous democracy that any grasp of economics, but he must now know, as the we have reached this situation and are accepting that—for Conservatives now know, that there were no billions of the time being, at least—the proposition is dead. However, pounds available to spend on anything else, whether on the issues will not go away. The issue of second generation hospitals in Gosport or anywhere else. There was no pot biometric passports will not go away because the rest of of gold to draw on. We are apparently going to save the world is moving around us, and because they are a £5 million a year over 10 years. Well, that is really going more authentic and therefore verifiable way of securing to knock a hole in the deficit and provide the cash for our identities. My hon. Friend the Member for West the deficit reduction strategy! Bromwich East (Mr Watson) is right to say that we need I have in my other hand my existing passport, which to find and develop simpler ways of securing, presenting is totally forgeable, and is not really worth the paper it is and owning our own identities, in a manner that was written on. When I went to Europe twice this last not possible 10 years ago but is becoming possible now. month, they were really happy to have my ID card, That is so particularly for specific purposes. In the because it has biometrics on it and it is more authentic, end, I believe that our person will be our identity, and ensuring my identity is proved. that we will be able to walk through electronic border What have I learned from the last eight years? First, controls and present ourselves, not a card or passport. we need to explain more clearly what is beneficial to the It will automatically register our biometric fingerprints, individual rather than to the state. Secondly, we need to our irises—in the future; at the moment the technology be absolutely clear about the costings so that they are is not up to it, but it will be—and use facial recognition not rolled up over 10 years and people’s individual based on digital technology, which will avoid fraud. purchase is not confused with taxation. Thirdly, we I have a card here; I am very proud of it. I have been need to ensure that people do not believe that additional offered a lot of money for it on eBay. I have agreed with data is going to be taken that would previously not have Simon Davies of Privacy International that we could been available for the passport or for the DVLA driving frame it and put it in a gallery. I do not intend to licence. 367 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 368

[Mr David Blunkett] 2.38 pm John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I Incidentally, the BBC managed to get a driving licence congratulate you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on your well- for Freddie Forsyth, who wrote “The Day of the deserved appointment, and I congratulate the hon. Jackal”, and for me. I promise the world that at no Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) on her excellent point in the future will I ever use the driving licence that maiden speech. the BBC obtained on my behalf in order to drive around this country. I would have been a much greater I support the Identity Documents Bill, but one of the risk to the people of Britain than identity cards would difficulties is that it should really be called the Identity ever have been in terms of intruding on their lifestyle, Documents and Register Bill. It is the register aspect their liberty and their well-being. When I took out the that I would like to concentrate on. Section 10 of the ID card, the only thing I had to provide over and Identity Cards Act 2006 deals with above the information for my passport was to pick from “Notification of changes affecting accuracy of Register”. 25 options something relevant to my past that only I The claim that maintaining a database and any changes would know, which I could offer if my identity were to to it has no cost is ludicrous. There is obviously a saving be challenged and a further check had to be made. That from not having to change the database. is all—no information that could be transferred for Under section 10(1): other purposes, no intrusion that criminals could get hold of and use beyond what they already had access to “An individual to whom an ID card has been issued must notify the Secretary of State about…every prescribed change of in other ways, nothing nefarious that would in any way circumstances affecting the information recorded about him in intrude on my or anyone else’s civil liberties. The truth the Register”. is, however, that people believed otherwise. They believed Under section 10(7): that there would be those problems, that the card would cost a lot of money, which could be spent on something “An individual who contravenes a requirement imposed on him by…this section shall be liable to a civil penalty not exceeding else, and that the register and biometrics were not a £1,000.” priority at the time. Essentially, what that means is that once the information Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman dealt with in schedule 1 is on the register, anyone who for giving way, but this is typical new Labour arrogance: has an ID card—whether they are compulsory or not—is everybody else was wrong, and they were right. What under a duty to notify and will be fined up to £1,000 if has been described are these benign, nice and inexpensive they do not inform the Government of those changes. cards, forgetting the fact that they hold up to 50 pieces Perhaps that was the stealth tax that was going to get of information that would be stored and shared. That is the Government out of the financial mess the country what new Labour were enthusing about with these was in. If we are talking about £1,000 fines for 60 million identity cards. Can the right hon. Gentleman not accept people, that comes to £60 billion, which is a good start: that perhaps the rest of us have got it right and he has there is a third of the deficit gone. The reality is that all got it wrong? the debate, on the basis of which public opinion was formed, has been about the card and its cost. Once people start being fined for not telling the Government Mr Blunkett: I thought I had accepted this afternoon about changes, the position becomes much more difficult. that I and many others got it wrong, but not my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West Schedule 1 of the 2006 Act is relevant to the subject and Hessle (Alan Johnson) or our admirable, and of the 50 pieces of information, although the amount of honourable, Friend the Member for Hackney South information required obviously depends on the individual. and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier), who did a fantastic job The requirement for the individual’s “full name” is in the time she was in post in getting the message straightforward, but people change their names by deed across. I have already indicated that we did not explain poll from time to time, and if they do not tell the the issue. The hon. Member for Perth and North Government, they must pay a £1,000 fine. Next, the Perthshire (Pete Wishart) illustrates the position schedule refers to extremely well in saying that 50 bits of information “other names by which he is…known”. were required. If he had gone along and got himself People may have nicknames. If someone fills in an an ID card, he would have realised that that was election nomination paper with a name by which he is complete and utter bunkum, but this has been repeated known, but does not tell the Government for the purposes so often that people started to believe it. I challenge of the identity card, he will have to pay a £1,000 fine. anyone who has an ID card, who went along and There are requirements for “date of birth” , “place of gave the information to be placed on that database birth” and “gender” to be recorded. “Gender” is an to stand up this afternoon and challenge me. I will interesting one. Under the Identity Cards Act 2006 give way quite happily if people believe that they can (Application and Issue of ID Card and Notification of justify the claim that this mega-amount of information Changes) Regulations 2009, people can register two had to be provided over and above what was required genders if they wish. I shall say more about that later. for the passport. The schedule also refers to In the end, however, if people believe something in a democracy, that is what counts. I remember saying at “the address of his principal place of residence”. 3 am Friday morning after the general election, “If To be fair, people do need to tell the various authorities you’re defeated, you’re defeated.” When defeated, it is where they live, for electoral purposes and the like. right to go back, think again and work out how to However, paragraph 1(g) refers to develop sensible arguments that protect civil liberties, “the address of every other place in the United Kingdom or and protect the nation’s well-being as well. elsewhere”. 369 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 370

Someone with a holiday home in France must tell the £1,000 fine. Members may laugh, but such things happen. United Kingdom Government where it is. If he sells it The purpose of speed cameras was to make money out and does not tell the Government where he has moved, of the fines. If a Department is targeted to be self-financing, he will have to pay a £1,000 fine. It is a good way of it will look for solutions such as another change that raising money. A great many people, including many in should have been, but has not been, put on the identity the House, have more than one residence—they may card register. have to work away from home—but if they do not tell There is no point in my reading out all of schedule 1, the Government where that other residence is, they which is available to Members, as are the regulations must pay £1,000. which amend schedule 1. More than 50 pieces of The schedule demands information may be required, but the main issue is the “a photograph of his head and shoulders (showing the features of sudden creation of a major duty for the citizen to tell the face)”. the Government everything that he or she does. We all know how good the Government are at keeping information The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and secure. They can get a little memory stick and lose a Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and my hon. Friends the number of bank accounts, for instance. There is also the Members for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) and for question of access to the information. The Data Protection Cambridge (Dr Huppert) may wake up one day and Act may make it an offence to sell access to any of the decide that they would like to use the razor to a greater databases, but when there is a single database in a single extent than usual. If they take such action and do not place all the information is tidily collated, and it may be tell the Government, they must pay a £1,000 fine for not worth someone’s while to obtain and pass to someone sending another photograph. else information such as where a holiday home is in The passport system is simple and straightforward. France, what name a person uses when wearing a dress, Every 10 years, people must renew their passports and the colour of a person’s hair, or a national insurance send in a new photograph. At one stage the Government number. got into a real mess with babies. They required a baby not to have its mouth open when being photographed, Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab): I am the proud and people had to send in 20 photographs before one owner of an ID card, and I went through the process of was considered acceptable. That was a serious problem. filling in the application form. Yes, I did give information Under the ID card system, such people would fall such as my name and address, but there were huge parts outside the time limits specified in section 10 of the Act, of the form that I did not have to fill in, because I had and would have to pay a £1,000 fine. already provided that information in order to obtain my passport. Is the hon. Gentleman saying that we should My daughter decided to dye her hair green. Obviously not give such information in order to obtain a passport? that is a change, involving not just the price of the dye but a possible £1,000 fine for dyeing her hair green and John Hemming: When we apply for a passport, every not telling the Government. Let us suppose that I 10 years, we provide a new photograph. I, for example, decide tomorrow to put on a dress and call myself am a little bit follicly challenged, and at some stage I Doris. The statutory instrument requires me to tell the must recognise that. Government that I am calling myself Doris and have an alternative gender. If the day after that I decide to call Mr Watson: Shave it off then. myself Ethel and do not tell the Government, I will have to pay a £1,000 fine. The Government are definitely John Hemming: If I follow the hon. Gentleman’s making good process in getting rid of the deficit: this is advice and shave it off, and then do not provide a a very good stealth tax. photograph for the ID register, I will pay a £1,000 fine. It is all a question of whether the Government serve It is recognised that passport photographs go out of the citizen or the citizen serves the Government. One of date. That is why children’s passports do not last as long my constituents was stopped by the police on the Coventry as adults’ passports. But, having applied for a passport, road, which—as those who are acquainted with Yardley we do not have a duty to tell the passport office that we will know—is a very big road that, unsurprisingly, leads have moved to a new address, or that the location of a to Coventry. Everything, including his insurance, was second home has changed. There will be no £1,000 fine perfect, but the wrong box was ticked on a form, and he in such circumstances. The real difference is that individual was subsequently prosecuted and convicted of an offence citizens are threatened with a fine of up to £1,000 if that he had not committed. It took a lot of doing for us they do not inform the Government’s ID card department to reverse the conviction and remove it from the system. of such changes. It could be said that the most intrusive That is an example of what can happen when things are aspect is not the ID card itself, but the maintenance of done for the convenience of the state rather than the the register and, in particular, the duty for the individual convenience of the citizen. The right hon. Member for to update the register. Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) I think that all the other aspects have been ably dealt said that this was not Big Brother, but I think that with. A voluntary scheme is unlikely to achieve anything having to tell the Government every time you do something in terms of preventing crime, particularly serious crime. is a bit Big Brother. People who are willing to die in the process of committing During the general election campaign I cut my finger crime will not be frightened of a £1,000 fine for not on a piece of paper, and obviously that changed my giving a photograph of themselves to the Government. fingerprint. Schedule 1.2 is headed “Identifying We have heard no good arguments for how ID cards information”, and subparagraph (c) refers to fingerprints. and the ID database would prevent crime. What is clear If I had had an ID card and had not told the Government is that the identity register is massively intrusive. The that I had cut my finger, I would have had to pay a duty that it places on the citizen to inform the Government 371 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 372

[John Hemming] Heroes. These are proud people in proud communities in Erdington. Castle Vale, which I am privileged to of every change is an extreme step, forcing people to represent—entered through Spitfire island, rebuilt under serve the Government and make things convenient for the remarkable Robin Corbett—is still a remarkable them by providing such information. It is obvious that community to this day. It has a great community spirit; this is all about convenience in the provision of services. 5,000 people turned out recently to celebrate the life of The public interest is defined as the achievement of a young girl who died of asthma and to raise money for more efficiency in providing public services. The basic charity so that no more would follow that terrible fate. point is that the Government are here to serve the Among the great communities of Erdington are Pype citizen; the citizen is not here to serve the Government. Hayes, the Asian community in Slade road, the traditional Green, Perry Common and Kingstanding. 2.50 pm Erdington is a constituency with manufacturing in its Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I blood. Sadly too many workplaces have gone to the congratulate you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on your election wall: Fort Dunlop, Cincinnati and IMI. However, there and thank you for the opportunity to make my maiden are still great industrial enterprises such as the Jaguar speech. It is a privilege—an interesting one—to follow a plant, the jewel in the crown of manufacturing excellence; fellow Birmingham MP,the hon. Member for Birmingham, GKN; Valor Fires, recently the winner of the Queen’s Yardley (John Hemming), who made the point very well award; and small but dynamic companies such as Guhring. that was brought out by my right hon. Friend the Erdington is a stronger, fairer, better place thanks to Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough 13 years of a Labour Government. The schools were (Mr Blunkett) that there are those who believe in caricatures rebuilt and new children’s centres were built, including and myths. the Gunter school and children’s centre, giving kids the Birmingham, which I am proud to represent, is a best possible start in life. We have world-class health remarkable city, the birthplace of local government and centres such as that in Stockland Green. Thousands of municipal enterprise. Under Joseph Chamberlain and homes have been renovated as a consequence of Labour’s the visionary Victorian pioneers, Birmingham city council decent homes programme, including those on the Lyndhurst provided gas, water and electricity. The council built estate. some of the first swimming pools because it understood For all those advances over 13 years, Erdington has the link between health and well-being. Some of those enduring deep-seated problems, including high pools are still in use, including the great Moseley Road unemployment. I have seen the impact of that. An baths. Birmingham city council even established a excellent craftsmen from LDV lost his job and five years municipal bank. on was desperate to get back into work. A young In the 20th century, under visionary pioneers such as builder from Marsh lane was almost in tears with Dick Knowles, the national exhibition centre, the national frustration because he could not get a job in the industry convention centre and the national indoor arena were for which he had been trained. Often there is still poor remarkable examples of municipal enterprise and housing, long waiting lists and a lack of affordable partnership with the private sector, which brought millions family housing, which divides families and breaks up to Birmingham. communities. Birmingham remains the industrial heartland of Britain: Crime is down thanks to Labour’s investment in the 100,000 people work in manufacturing. Birmingham’s police and the excellent police community support officers manufacturing contributes billions to our economy and in Erdington, but there are still too many examples of to the quality of life and the culture of Birmingham unacceptable antisocial behaviour. Too many people in itself. That is captured by the legend in the municipal Erdington were left behind, including those in Kingstanding. museum, People lost their jobs three or four times in the 1980s “By the gains of Industry we promote Art.” and some of them never went back to work again. Two Birmingham is indeed a city of culture that deserves to generations have grown up in workless households. win the accolade of European city of culture. Erdington is a community that believes in the power Birmingham is a city of diversity. As the proud son of of community, solidarity and self-help. I mention the Irish parents who left the emerald isle to escape poverty excellent Enta project. Recently I was privileged to be and to build a better life, I feel at home with what is the with young men and women who had been brought largest Irish community outside London, the Erin Go back into the labour market by that excellent organisation, Bragh Gaelic games club, the magnificent St Patrick’s which believes in the legend of that song “You Raise day parade and enjoying the craic in the New Inns. I feel Me Up”. But Erdington is a community that knows at home in a city that celebrates its diversity: the Afro- this: the deep-seated problems of jobs and housing are Caribbean community and its churches, Vaisakhi, that incapable of resolution without the power of good great Sikh festival that brought 100,000 people to government. Birmingham’s Central park, and St George’s day, celebrated For 25 years I fought great battles for working people with passion in the working men and working women’s in Birmingham. I am a Labour man proud of my trade clubs, with more flags of St George being flown than I union background, but I have worked with those from have ever seen before—English people proud of their other political parties: the admirable hon. Member for identity and rightly recapturing the flag from the brain-dead Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), who chaired brilliantly bootboys of the BNP. the recent Select Committee inquiry into the scandal of Birmingham is characterised by Brummie pride. There the Kraft takeover of Cadbury’s; Baroness Shephard, is a distinct ethos of hard work and enterprise, of who stood alongside me and my hon. Friend the Member smiling in adversity, of community and solidarity. I for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) in have attended excellent events such as that for Help for the drive to take the Gangmasters (Licensing) Bill into 373 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 374 law, ending modern-day slavery; and the right hon. and it is British genius, but made in China. For both learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Birmingham and Britain, the single biggest task is the Campbell), with whom I fought to save Rosyth dockyard renaissance of our manufacturing industries, and I say from closure in Scotland. Therefore, where the Government this to the Government: do not walk away from get it right, I will work with them, but where government, Birmingham’s great industries, and do not condemn national or local, gets it wrong, I will stand up for the this generation to the fate suffered by that of the 1980s. people of Erdington as their champion, fighting their In the 21st century, we must not have a generation of corner, making a difference for them and with them, young people with no work and no hope. Birmingham, and defending that which matters to their lives. There Erdington deserves better. can be no rolling back of those great advances that we 3.2 pm have made. Yes, choices have to be made, but I will resist any notion of asking those who are least able to bear Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I congratulate the burden to pay the price of the misdeeds of the you on your election, Mr Deputy Speaker, and thank bankers. you for giving me this opportunity to make my maiden I have seen that at first hand. A young schizophrenic speech. I also congratulate the previous maiden speaker, approached me in Erdington high street and said, “Jack, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack for 10 years I could not get out of my home. Now I can, Dromey), not only on his excellent speech but, if I am helped by a local project. They are going to help me to not mistaken, on becoming the first Member of this get back into work, but what will I do when they close House to make his maiden speech while his wife was not the project because of city council cuts?” Therefore, my only present in the Chamber but sitting on the Front message to the Government is this: if they cut the future Bench. jobs fund, they will deprive the unemployed of Erdington It is a big step for anyone to represent his cathedral of hope; if they cut the child trust fund, they will city in this House. Many previous maiden speakers have deprive parents of modest means of the ability to pass alluded to the difficulties of filling the large shoes of on to their children assets for the future; if they cut their predecessors. In my case, that is literally true as Labour’s expansion of university places, it will not be both of my feet would probably fit into one of Parmjit the stockbroker belt of Surrey and Sussex that suffers, Dhanda’s shoes. I pay tribute to him for the work he did but the young working-class kids of Erdington who will on behalf of Gloucester, his great interest in Gloucester be deprived of the chance to become the first in their City football club and his contribution to the relocation family to go to university. and rebuilding of Gloucestershire college. I also respected I pay tribute to my predecessors: Robin Corbett and his enthusiasm—although I did not share it at all—for Siôn Simon, who have served the people of Erdington the regionalisation of many things, including government, well, and I hope to follow in their footsteps. I have one planning, the police and fire control centres. In these other message to Government: do not step back from respects at least, I hope that small is beautiful. It is what Labour has done in recent years on industrial appropriate that I am making this maiden speech on activism—that necessary partnership between industry behalf of my Gloucester constituents during the Second and good Government. Everyone now understands, in Reading debate of the Bill to abolish ID cards, which the aftermath of the financial crisis, that we must rebalance are certainly a vivid example of the misuse of both our economy, no longer be heavily dependent on the parliamentary time and taxpayer money. financial sector but again rebuild the real economy, The main issue in my city and others like it is not including our manufacturing base. dissimilar to that described by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington: we are a great working city Locally, I have seen this in Castle Vale. The admirable which now has record youth unemployment and too chief executive of the Castle Vale community housing many families with no working role model—in fact, association says that we have rebuilt the housing and there are occasionally three generations living entirely built a community, but we have a desperate shortage of off benefits. I believe that everyone in Gloucester will jobs. That is why my No. 1 priority will be jobs and support me in saying that our main endeavour today is manufacturing—and I have to say that the subject of to increase business growth in order to generate more ID cards did not come up once in the 4,000 doorstep jobs, especially for the young, and that this will in turn discussions I had throughout the general election campaign. generate the tax revenues that fund the front-line services My priority will be jobs and manufacturing. I want that are so crucial for everyone in my city. us to preserve what is left of our manufacturing base, Let me try to put our work in context. Gloucester which is why I will promote a “Cadbury’s law” so that first appeared on the map through two early attempts at we protect vital British industrial assets from hostile European integration: first, it was the Roman colonia takeovers by foreign multinationals. That is why I will of Glevum, and it was then at the forefront of a large stand up for the future of the Jaguar plant in my Norman military and religious building programme, constituency, and that is why I will work—with which has left us with the glories of Gloucester cathedral. Government, I hope—to promote the hi-tech industries However, as Conservative Members know so well, economic of the future. I want green manufacturing in Birmingham development rarely follows Government plans, and our and a green investment bank for Birmingham, but as I next phase of mass tourism was created by the unfortunate know from experience of dealing with major manufacturing and regrettable homophobic act of regicide against companies, there is a simple reality: manufacturing will Edward II in the constituency of my hon. Friend the flourish only if there is a partnership between good Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). Since then the government and these world-class companies. numbers of pilgrims arriving in our city have dramatically Historically, Birmingham was the laboratory of the increased only fairly recently, with the influx of people world and the workshop of the world, combining British visiting our cloisters as a location used in the Harry genius, enterprise and hard work. Too often now, however, Potter films. 375 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 376

[Richard Graham] our economy, and therefore I welcome the changes that I am sure this Government will make in order to bring Our true business adaptability was shown during the about that re-stimulation. industrial revolution, however, when we created, first, So I promise the constituents of Gloucester, whom I the world’s deepest canal, and then Britain’s most inland am so proud to serve, that I will work ceaselessly, port, to bring raw materials to Gloucester to make especially to help business growth that will provide job things. That is where my city has always excelled: we opportunities and generate tax revenues. To those ends, have made things. We manufactured wagons during the I intend to create a new all-party parliamentary group age of the railway to carry everything from coal to on urban regeneration—which links so many of these maharajahs, with slightly different degrees of comfort, issues together—and I shall work with Members on and most spectacularly we built the world’s first jet both sides of the House to explore new ways of contributing fighter, the Gloster Meteor, which was exported to to the solutions in that area. If we can successfully 14 countries. stimulate micro-regeneration on the streets, as well as Today, we face different times and challenges. Like macro-regeneration through projects and new investment, many other constituencies, our business sector has a it will be possible for the people of Gloucester to take strong retail and financial element, but we continue to greater pride in our city and for hon. Members and manufacture despite the large drop in our manufacturing people all round the country to see that, like our cathedral sector during the last 10 years. In Gloucester, 15% of and our rugby club, it belongs to the premier league. our gross domestic product still comes from manufacturing, including health products and large quantities of materials 3.11 pm for the aerospace industry such as insulation, coatings Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab): I am grateful and cylinders, and almost every ice cream that every to you for calling me to make my maiden speech today, Member has eaten in this country comes from the Mr Deputy Speaker. I should like to congratulate the Wall’s ice cream factory in Gloucester. hon. Members for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) and It is as a symbol that I am today wearing something for Gloucester (Richard Graham) on their excellent manufactured in Gloucester. The shirt I am wearing maiden speeches, and, especially, my hon. Friend the was made two days ago on the Cross in the heart of our Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) on city by Gloucester craftsmen, and I am proud to say his passionate and informative speech. that the company that makes these wonderful shirts will I believe that a Member of Parliament once described shortly be opening a retail space in Bombay, demonstrating maiden speeches as lasting 10 minutes, beginning with a that Gloucester will soon be exporting to India again. few nice words about the previous Member—often the most difficult part—followed by a description of the At the same time as this greater diversity in manufacturing constituency and an indication of the Member’s own and business enterprise, we have seen a growing diversity parliamentary obsessions, and concluding with a passing of our residents. I thought it would be useful as a new reference to the subject at hand. I can assure hon. Member of Parliament to have lived and worked in Members that I have no difficulty in paying tribute to 10 countries and to speak the languages of eight of my predecessor, Martyn Jones. I have known him for them, but the people of Gloucester speak 46 languages 24 years; indeed, I campaigned for him when he was and so, in this as in so much else, I still have a lot to first elected in 1987, in what was then the parliamentary learn. constituency of Clwyd, South-West. Martyn was rightly It will be of interest to Members to learn that many proud of serving as Chair of the Welsh Affairs Select of our residents from overseas come from close to the Committee, and of all the painstaking and detailed Indian port of Surat in Gujarat, which was, by wonderful work he did to ensure that money left lying in dormant historical irony, the port where Elizabethan sailors from bank accounts found its way to good causes. Many hon. this country first landed in India some 450 years ago. I Members who served alongside Martyn will recall his welcome all my friends from Gujarat, and also more distinctive bow ties. Indeed, one of the first messages I recent arrivals. I am proud to have been invited as the received after my election came from a well-wisher who guest of honour at the opening this weekend of the new ended his note with the rather startling comment: association for Tamils and also to an event by the Polish “Long may the tradition of bow tie-wearing Joneses representing community. Clwyd South continue.” Today, the truth is that all of us, whatever our origins, I am afraid that I might have to break with that tradition face severe difficulties in handling the record youth before it becomes too entrenched. unemployment and in trying to re-grow our economy to Clwyd South is not one community but many, and provide jobs for our young people. That is why all my that is something that we are very proud of. It has constituents will welcome measures taken by this agriculture, industry, tourism—including a world heritage Government to stimulate business, which we must remind site at Pontcysyllte aqueduct—natural beauty, including ourselves is the sole source of growth, providing jobs the breathtaking Horseshoe pass, and a world-famous and then tax revenues for the services that many Members international music festival in the Llangollen international are calling for in our different constituencies. eisteddfod. It was also the home of Wales’s first ever The most famous book written about Gloucester is national Welsh language youth festival, the 1929 Urdd Beatrix Potter’s “The Tailor of Gloucester”. Some Members eisteddfod, at Corwen. It is the home of the great centre will remember the sad moment when the tailor runs out of the co-operative movement at Cefn, and of the site of of money and finds that there is “no more twist”. In his the citadel of Welsh music, culture and non-conformity case, he was bailed out by the mice, who in the dead of at Rhosllanerchrugog. We also have the historic base of night brought both the cloth and the needles and finished a former iron and steelworks at Brymbo, which was his sewing for him, but today we cannot trust entirely to where my father worked. Sadly, the steelworks itself the benevolence of the mice in Gloucester to re-stimulate closed almost 20 years ago, with its blast furnace being 377 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 378 shipped off to power the economic revival of China. sparseness, terrain, or other local factors. Those of us My constituency also has a history of coal mining, who care about our rural communities will not be including mines near Chirk, Bersham and Hafod. railroaded in that way. There is a history of coal mining in my family, as That is why I also hope that those who have to make there is in many families from my area. My paternal undoubtedly difficult decisions will not consider the grandfather was killed in a major mining accident in rate of value added tax as a mere statistic to be increased Gresford in 1934. My maternal grandfather, also a coal at will. In many areas such as Clwyd South, where small miner, started work at the age of 12. A year or two later, businesses form the backbone of the local economy, the my grandmother had left school and was caring for her net result of high rates of VAT would be an intense parents and siblings. Because of childhood illness, my struggle in many cases, and bankruptcy for the local mother was not allowed to sit the 11-plus examination. builder, the plumber, and the small business person in She left school and went to work at 15, having to train others. in her own time to become a medical secretary. All those On that note, and having made those points, I pledge people, and many others like them from my home to do my best to serve the people of the communities of community, experienced a poverty of finance and of Clwyd South and to contribute to the life and work of opportunity in one way or another. It was the kind of this House. Diolch yn fawr. poverty that brought together ordinary people in 3.19 pm communities across the United Kingdom to seek election Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): to this House to change things for the good. Without May I add my congratulations on your recent election, such people, many of the opportunities that people of Mr Deputy Speaker, and thank you for giving me this my generation have enjoyed would not have been possible. opportunity to make my maiden speech? It is a great That type of poverty—of finance and of opportunity— honour to serve Finchley and Golders Green, and I has been well documented, and rightly so. But there was have found the trust placed in me quite humbling as I another type of poverty in my home community that is walk around this building. I should also like to thank less well known. It was the poverty of a child going into the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) their local school and not merely being denied the for telling the House of the interesting and emotional opportunity to be taught in their own language, but in journey that has led her here, and the hon. Member for many cases being punished for speaking it. Indeed, in Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) for his passionate the 19th century, there was the common punishment of support for Birmingham and for the manufacturing the “Welsh Not”, a piece of wood worn around the industry that he seeks to recreate. I should also like to necks of children who spoke Welsh, who would later be thank my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard caned. It might shock hon. Members to learn that, even Graham) for his evocative description of that fair city. after the use of the “Welsh Not” ceased—indeed, as First of all, I would like to pay tribute to my predecessor. recently as the 1930s and 1940s—children in the Dr Rudi Vis was not of my party, but I do regard him as communities that now make up Clwyd South and in a friend of over 20 years. He served this House for many other parts of Wales were punished for speaking 13 years before retiring a few weeks ago, but he sadly Welsh at school; and even after those barbaric practices died less than a week ago. He will be a sad loss to public ceased, there was a sharp decline in the use of the Welsh service. He was a diligent pubic servant, in this House language. It took decades before its use was finally and also in the London borough of Barnet, where we accepted as mainstream. both served together. Sadly, he leaves a wife and teenage children, but I know that they can be proud of his Today, I rejoice that I can swear my oath as a Member record of public service. He served his community of of Parliament in Welsh, but in doing so, I pay tribute to Finchley as a local councillor, and represented the people such as my former head teacher, Mrs Mair Miles wider community of Finchley and Golders Green in Thomas, who fought for the Welsh language at a time this House. when it was not fashionable to do so. They were ordinary I should like to comment on another of my predecessors. people in the mould of Mrs Rosa Parkes, and their Those hon. Members in the Chamber a couple of days commitment and dedication to civil rights deserve wider ago will have heard my hon. Friend the Member for recognition. North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) claiming that I know that, for many Members, part of the art of a his constituency gave the country the first king of maiden speech is naming every single community in England. I cannot claim that for Finchley and Golders their constituency, but for Clwyd South that would not Green, but perhaps I can claim that we gave the country be possible, such is the profusion of villages and small the latter-day Boadicea—in one Margaret Hilda Thatcher. towns spread over a vast terrain of 240 square miles. In In my view, my noble Friend is the best peacetime Prime today’s debate, we have heard much about the protection Minister that we have had. In this current economic of the rights of the few, and I have found much of that climate, we could learn much from her resolve in addressing debate interesting and informative. When one considers the economic crisis that she inherited. Then, unemployment the nature of constituencies such as Clwyd South, one and inflation were rising, and our public sector spending is indeed considering the rights of the few. It is not was out of control. difficult to understand why, over the years, local campaigners Perhaps the task ahead for our Government today is have spoken out against proposals drawn up in metropolitan slightly greater, as Baroness Thatcher never managed to areas, apparently with our best interests at heart, whether cut public spending. She was able only to slow its for the deregulation of the bus services in the 1980s, for growth, yet we have laid out plans to cut public a rural school, for a post office, or for a game plan expenditure—something of a daunting task. Like her, drawn up by metropolitan policy wonks to “equalise” however, I believe that we must return to sound money us all into communities of 70,000 people, regardless of and good housekeeping, and to protecting our cherished 379 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 380

[Mike Freer] for different reasons. The Jewish community opposes them because of their history and experience in Nazi freedoms. Throughout her premiership, she remained Germany, and the Muslim community does so because an active and effective constituency MP, and I shall be of their experience post-7/7 and post-11 September 2001. fortunate if I achieve a fraction of what she achieved My right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and through my campaigns to improve breast cancer screening Harpenden (Mr Lilley) once commented that ID cards for local women, to promote infrastructure investments had been touted around from Minister to Minister until on the north circular road, and for the free schools one was found who was gullible enough to accept the programme, which are so wanted and deserved by my idea. The ID cards were a solution looking for a problem: local population. they were meant to combat under-age drinking first of Finchley and Golders Green is no longer the suburban all, then identity theft, fraud and illegal immigration, seat that Margaret Thatcher knew. It is now metropolitan and now terrorism. However, they would do little to London. We have huge pockets of wealth and pockets reduce the numbers of those who work or employ of deprivation. We have the Hampstead Garden suburb, illegally. Employers are already required to check the largest conservation area in Europe where houses documentation. Illegal employment is due to weak can cost from £80 million downwards. Within miles, enforcement and poor compliance by both the agencies however, we come to pockets of deprivation on our involved and employers. estates that need regenerating. We also have Brent Cross As a former banker—and I have to confess that my Cricklewood, which is the largest regeneration scheme family are somewhat confused as to whether going from in the UK. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Secretary banker to full-time politician is a move up or down—I of State for Communities and Local Government will can tell the House that I have seen at first hand how soon give the green light to it. organised crime can produce counterfeit documents We also have the finest schools in the country. Barnet that not even the Government could produce through council is a net importer of pupils from our neighbouring their official agencies. I have seen instances of identity boroughs, which clamour to send their children to our theft and fraud that have been based on such counterfeit local schools. If I may, I should like to mention one fine documentation, and that leads me to believe that no ID school: Christ’s College, which produced my noble Friend card would counter those crimes, as organised crime Lord Sachs, the Chief Rabbi, and of course our own will beat the system. Mr Speaker Bercow. Moreover, the use of ID cards in Madrid did not Finchley and Golders Green is not known for prevent terrorism there, and it would not have stopped manufacturing or farming, and neither does it have a the bombers on 7/7. In my view, we are right to abolish fabulous cathedral about which I could wax lyrical. ID cards, as they shift the balance away from citizen to However, it does have the highest level of graduates in the state and give the Government access to data that London and we rely on, and contribute to, the knowledge- we do not know will be kept secure—and neither do we based economy. know how that data might be used. Perhaps it was always thus. Those colleagues who still Sixty years ago, Finchley played a role in abolishing use fountain pens might be pleased to know that, in the last ID card system, which was introduced during 1832, Dr Henry Stephens invented blue-black ink, and the second world war. On 7 December 1950, one Clarence that he was based in Finchley. I am pleased to say that Willcock was driving down Ballards lane in Finchley—the he went on to become the Conservative Member of very road where my constituency office is based—when Parliament for the neighbouring seat of Hornsey, which he was stopped by the police and asked to produce his is now held by our coalition partners in Hornsey and identity papers. He refused. He was then prosecuted Wood Green. and convicted. He appealed, and the Lord Chief Justice We are also home to the European headquarters of hearing his appeal said that ID cards were intrusive and McDonald’s, which I am sure hon. Members will have undermined the relationship between law enforcement heard of, and to the Pentland Group, of which they may and the people. He was right then, and he is right today. not have heard. However, I am sure that they will have The result was that ID cards were scrapped. heard of some of their brands, such as Berghaus, Ted Sixty years ago, a resident of Finchley instigated the Baker, Lacoste, Red or Dead and Speedo. The latter scrapping of ID cards. Today, I am pleased that this brand is quite prominent in the popular press this week. resident of Finchley will be doing his bit to scrap the The Pentland Group is also the greenest and most latest version of ID cards. innovative company in the UK. The way that it turns goods produced by local manufacturing companies into global brands is quite remarkable. 3.28 pm Finchley and Golders Green is now a vibrant Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I metropolitan area, with one of the most diverse congratulate you on your appointment, Mr Deputy communities in the UK. I have the largest Jewish population Speaker. I can already sense you melting into that of any constituency in the UK, at some 25% of my Chair, and I wish you many years in the role. I can also electorate. However, living harmoniously alongside that see the other Mr Deputy Speaker bursting to get on to very large Jewish community is a large and growing that Chair, dressed in what can only be described as the Muslim and Hindu community. Historically, those best of Deputy Speaker finery. communities have not always seen eye to eye, yet our I congratulate the hon. Member for Finchley and area enjoys beacon status for community cohesion. Golders Green (Mike Freer) on a fine maiden speech. It is that community cohesion that has led those He had some remarkable predecessors and he paid a communities to cherish their historic rights and freedoms. fitting tribute to Rudi Vis, who was very much respected Many of our faith communities oppose ID cards, albeit and liked across the Chamber. We have heard some 381 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 382 other fantastic maiden speeches, including a fine and the citizen and the state. ID cards, and the much more passionate one from the hon. Member for Birmingham, dangerous national register, would, for ever and a day, Erdington (Jack Dromey). He brings vast experience to have put the onus on the citizen to have his information the Chamber and I look forward to hearing many more shared. They would have changed the relationship around robust and meaningful contributions from him as this entirely, so I am pleased they have gone. Parliament progresses. The hon. Member for Clwyd Where on earth did these things come from? I wish to South (Susan Elan Jones) gave a passionate defence of be charitable—you know me, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am the Welsh language, and my hon. Friend the Member charitable when I can be—so I should say that perhaps for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) and I are they were an incoherent, bizarre, knee-jerk response to similarly passionate about the Gaelic language. We the events of the past decade. One can imagine the hope to hear many more speeches on that theme as she conversation around the Cabinet table, with the right makes her contributions in Parliament. hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough I enjoy the maiden speech season. It is great because saying, “Listen boss, I have a new idea that will show we hear all these fine tributes to former colleagues and that we are actually doing something—ID cards. They are given an encyclopaedic tour of the UK’s constituencies. will upset the civil liberties brigade, but that plays well We have several more maiden speeches to hear and I with the focus groups. They will certainly wrong-foot must say that I could hear one every day for the next the Tories.” One can just picture the enthusiastic nodding Parliament if so many are as fine as the ones that we of Messrs Reid and Clarke as they thought that they have heard in the past few days; all the speeches have had come up with a cunning plot to get one over on the been excellent, and I look forward to hearing some Tories and seem as though they were doing something. more this afternoon. That is what it was all about—I am being charitable to I congratulate the coalition Government because they them. They wanted to be seen to do something in the have been as good as their word. The Con Dems have face of the dreadful events at the beginning of the condemned Labour’s hated identity cards to the scrap previous decade. bin of history and I say well done to the coalition Of course, time passed and the cards did upset the Government. Is it not bizarre, even in these days of civil liberties brigade, but time also proved that, for political cross-dressing, that it has taken a right-wing tackling terrorism, the cards were as much use as Emu Conservative Home Secretary to scrap perhaps the most without Rod Hull. They would have done nothing to anti-civil libertarian measure of recent times, which was tackle terrorism. We have seen the events in Spain and proposed and introduced by a Labour Government? Turkey. Fair enough, I accept that, as hon. Members have said, there were convictions based on the use of ID David T. C. Davies: I hate to give the hon. Gentleman cards, but the cards did nothing to stop those events. a politics lesson, but he ought to know that right-wing The story had to change: the cards could no longer Members of Parliament have always been supporters of exclusively be about tackling terrorism, but had to be liberty and that we have had to defend our liberties about more than that. Seemingly, they were about tackling from the authoritarians on the left. identity fraud and illegal immigration and would even help people to play the lottery. They would be not so Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman much ID cards but supercards—the cure of all society’s for that. I observed with great interest the Conservatives’ ills. The problem was that nobody believed a word of it. new interest in civil liberties when they were in opposition. Despite the ridiculous rewriting of history about what We must hope that they maintain it in government and identity cards were and what they were intended to be, do not go back to form, because the Conservatives have everyone knew what they were. It was the difference not got a great track record on these issues. between the state and the individual.

Dr Huppert: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I do not want what he has just said explains why it is misleading for to interrupt the hon. Gentleman’s speech, which we are the Labour party to describe itself as a progressive all enjoying, but does he accept that the ultimate irony party? in all this is that although ID cards were to remedy all of society’s ills, as he has outlined, they were to be voluntary Pete Wishart: I shall leave it to the Labour party to at first? There was to be an attack on social security decide how it wants to describe itself, but what on earth fraud, terrorism and criminality, but people had to were Labour Members were thinking about? What were volunteer for it. they trying to do with ID cards? What was a left- of-centre, notionally socialist, party doing introducing Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is right. That ID cards? ID cards were the low water mark of Labour’s contradiction was even acknowledged by Labour Front anti-civil libertarian agenda and the high water mark of Benchers as being the thing that would do ID cards in. Labour’s attempt to usher in a new surveillance society. What was the point of them if the scheme was to be Thank goodness the cards have been stopped and Labour voluntary? Could anyone see Mr Terrorist popping off has not got away with it. to his post office voluntarily to apply for an ID card? Listening to the right hon. Members for Sheffield, That was never likely to happen. It was a ridiculous idea Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and for and the Labour party knew that, as has been acknowledged Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), by its Front Benchers. one would have thought that they were introducing Labour persisted with the scheme, but that approach nice, cuddly, friendly, inexpensive little things that would and all the talk about the new things that ID cards not bother a soul. The truth is that ID cards would have would do only further confused the already sceptical changed for ever the nature of the relationship between public about what the cards were all about. The right 383 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 384

[Pete Wishart] with the first national security brief that comes their way. However, although the Minister for Equalities is hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle part of the Home Office Front-Bench team, most of the is right that ID cards were quite popular in their early senior positions seem to be reserved for our Conservative days. At first, about 80% of the public thought that they friends. I wonder whether perhaps the Liberals are not would be a good thing, but that number slowly went trusted on the key issues for the Home Office; for down over the years as the public became familiar with example, the views of some Liberals on immigration what the cards were to do and as they heard the arguments might not chime so well with Back-Bench Conservatives. and saw the costs escalate year after year. What ID I am concerned that the Liberals have some work to do cards became for new Labour was not so much some to make sure that those guys are kept on the right track. great suggestion that it was bringing to the British That is their job, because if the Conservatives go back people as a political virility signal—something that a to form, we may be in a bit of trouble. Only recently, the dying and decaying Government had to push forward Conservatives opposed the Human Rights Act 1998 to be seen to do something. and the Freedom of Information Act 2000, so the When I was preparing this speech, I had no idea what Liberals will have a tough job keeping the Conservative the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West party on track. and Hessle was going to say. I did not know whether ID But today is not a day to be churlish. There is good cards were to be dumped or to be the first inclusion in news. We have what we wanted—the end of ID cards. It the next Labour party manifesto. Indeed, I still am not is good riddance to bad rubbish. It was a dreadful, sure exactly what the Labour party’s position is on dreadful idea. I still do not know what Labour was them. We know that it is not voting against the measure thinking about. Now that Labour Members are in tonight. What I have heard from Labour Members so opposition, I hope they acquire a thirst for civil liberties far is that they think that ID cards are still a good idea, again and that the party goes back to what it used to be but the way that they have described them is like no when its members championed civil liberties. other description of them that I have ever heard. Let us never again have a situation when any Government I had thought that ID cards would be subject to the propose such anti-civil libertarian measures. Campaign same sort of revisionism that has been seen with some groups have done an extraordinary job in bringing them of the Labour leadership candidates. I thought that to our attention. NO2ID and Liberty have been fantastic they might go the same way as the Iraq war or Alf at informing the British public about the ID card proposals, Garnett’s immigration policies, but, no, it seems that and I pay tribute to their excellent work. I hope that the they are still to be a feature of Labour’s new vision and Minister for Immigration and the Front-Bench team version to reconnect with the British public. They will will look at some of the outstanding issues such as ID be there to try to reconnect with the British public. cards for foreign nationals Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): Today is a good day. We have wanted rid of ID cards Might the hon. Gentleman be being a little harsh on the since they were first suggested. They have not been Labour party? That might seem an odd thing to say, but available for any Scottish services. To people who took this idea has rested since time immemorial in the Home out ID cards and want compensation—sorry. They Office, which pulled it out yet again in Michael Howard’s should have at least identified that the cards were Green Paper, which was defeated. There is a long history controversial before they bought them, and they should of the state—the Crown—seeking to number and identify not be entitled to compensation. They took the risk of every citizen in this kingdom. buying ID cards; it was their decision. Today is good news. Let us make sure it continues, Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is spot on. He has but let us keep watching the Conservatives like a hawk. made a better assessment of the functions and uses of ID cards than we have heard from Labour Members. 3.42 pm I come to where we are now. I welcome the Bill, but a few issues concern me and I say this with all sincerity to Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): May I congratulate the Minister for Immigration. I am still concerned that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on your new position? I also foreign nationals are expected to have ID cards. It might congratulate the other maiden speakers today. be called a permit or something else, but it seems to me I did not think I would be following up a line about to be quite like an ID card. I wish that the Government Rod Hull and Emu in my maiden speech. I have a lot of would do away with the whole scheme. Why keep an respect for the hon. Member for Perth and North element of a discredited scheme? All I can see is some Perthshire (Pete Wishart). I have met him many times kind of divisive legacy to Labour’s ID cards if they are and agree with many of the things he said. Following kept for foreign nationals. I hope that he will reconsider the suggestion of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, that. perhaps the hon. Gentleman and I can sit together I want to ask a bigger question. What are we to make during World cup matches and support England. of the Conservatives as the champions of civil liberties? I want to say a few words about identity documents. That is great, but it certainly does not chime with As has been pointed out, I do not believe that terrorists experience. Throughout the last few decades, the will volunteer to get an ID card. I do not believe that Conservatives were totally illiberal when it came to after the public’s initial enthusiasm for ID cards they proposing legislation, although they found a new thirst wanted to be taxed again for more paperwork. for civil liberties in opposition. I hope it stays. Many supporters of identity cards suggested that I know you will be thinking, Mr Deputy Speaker, that they would address illegal immigration. During the all those Liberals will protect us and make sure the election campaign in Keighley and Ilkley, immigration Conservatives do the right thing when they are presented was a big issue. Sadly, that was because many people 385 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 386 had lost confidence in the Government’s addressing their constituency being the jewel in the crown of the illegal immigration to this country. At that point, sadly, country. They are wrong; mine is. The place I represent some people considered supporting right-wing extreme has Brontë country: Haworth, the wuthering heights parties, as people in Keighley have done in the past. and the wildness of the moors. Ilkley moor looks down What was actually required to address the issue was not on the town of Ilkley, a beautiful place with a great an ID card, but a strong, robust and sensible position sense of identity. There are also the great towns of on immigration—capping numbers and making sure Keighley and Silsden. It is an immensely diverse place that we secured our borders. The good news is that we with great wealth in parts of it. Sadly, there is also great did offer that, and the public listened and believed us. poverty. Keighley Central is one of the most deprived The two right-wing fascist groups that stood in Keighley wards in the whole country, to the extent that some were severely trashed. people are still using outside toilets, which is a disgrace I would like to compliment the work of my predecessor, in the 21st century. Mrs Ann Cryer. I have known Mrs Cryer for many In parts of the constituency, life expectancy is nine years and, politically, we first met when she was years longer than in other parts. Educational attainment campaigning to save Oldfield school—at the time, the is low, particularly among Muslim young men and smallest school in the constituency—which the local boys, who are not achieving their potential. Unemployment Labour council was trying to close. She intervened, is high. Drug dealing and drug abuse is a big issue. I spoke to the Secretary of State and gained support to have the great privilege of representing a beautiful place save the school. I was a councillor in that ward at the which is immensely diverse, with a great populace and time—I still am, in fact—and many local people appreciated huge social issues that need to be addressed. On our her intervention. estates, there is third-generation benefit dependency. Mrs Cryer campaigned vigorously for the rights of Many young members of our Muslim community are women. At one event I remember attending, there was a not ambitious or aspirational and do not have the significant proportion of members of the Muslim opportunity to break out of the poverty in which they community. They had been segregated into women and live. men. Ann insisted on only addressing the women in the I believe that education and skills are the way forward. room if they were to be segregated. It was a powerful To benefit from that—Ann said this and I repeat it—our statement to the men in the room that the women did young people must come to school speaking English. not need to be treated in that way. There is a huge issue associated with that, not just in the Members will know of the work that Ann did in Muslim community, but in the white community. highlighting the abuse of young women by men in my Understanding of the English language is poor in many constituency, and her work is being continued. Sadly, of our white working-class areas. That needs to be the abuse is still going on and the work of the police and tackled. social services is seeking to address it. The final piece of Until a couple of weeks ago, I had the great privilege work by Ann Cryer about which the House will know is of being the leader of Bradford council, which is a forced marriages, which are not to be mixed up with tremendous honour. Bradford is a place of massive arranged marriages. Forced marriage is a vile activity challenge, but also a great city. I put on record my that Ann fought against for nearly all her time as an thanks to the chief executive, Tony Reeves, and his staff MP.I am sure that she will continue the fight in retirement. for the tremendous work that they do, particularly in I offer my wishes that Mrs Cryer has a long and happy education and with looked-after children, which is extremely retirement. important to his team. The family name will of course be kept in the Chamber for some time to come, in that the hon. Member for I took on the responsibility of attempting to address Leyton and Wanstead (John Cryer) has been elected. I community cohesion in Bradford. We were asked how met him for the first time in 32 years a couple of weeks such an academic philosophy can be put into practice. ago. He and I went to school together. He was the The answer is through an educated work force, decent Labour candidate in the mock elections in 1979 and I homes, and people being healthy, having jobs and living in a safe environment. Then, when communities are was the agent for the Conservatives. [HON.MEMBERS: “Who won?”] Sadly, he won on that occasion. In the brought together, they do not simply tolerate each same year, his father, the late Bob Cryer, won the other, but respect each other. I want to aspire to promoting parliamentary seat by 78 votes, the first time that Keighley and achieving that during my term as the MP for had not gone in the direction of the Government of the Keighley. time. Finally, I am former Private Hopkins of the Duke of I am from the village of Oakworth, and live there. Wellington’s Regiment and I am extremely proud of Before I leave the Cryers, I should say that Ann, Bob that. It is now amalgamated into the Yorkshire Regiment, and John are all from Oakworth and, obviously, they which gets its new colours next week. I have watched have all become MPs. I have the great privilege of this place making decisions, and sometimes not being representing my town as well. The first MP for Keighley able to make decisions, about war. We send our guys was from Oakworth. The Secretary of State for and our women to war, and it must be a legal war. I am Communities and Local Government, my right hon. very much aware of my responsibility in sending those Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr Pickles), young men and women to war. We must give them the is from Oakworth. The son of the local vet, one Alastair right equipment and, when the conflict ends, look after Campbell, is also from Oakworth. The Notting Hill of and care for them. the north, possibly? Or maybe there is something dodgy I support the end of the identity document. I also in the water. intend to support the Government in addressing the I have listened to many maiden speeches over the last huge financial deficit in the coming years as the MP couple of days and many Members have talked about representing Keighley and Ilkley. 387 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 388

3.54 pm At the beginning of my speech I mentioned today’s date, 9 June, which has great significance for the people Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): May I congratulate of Tyneside, for it was on 9 June that the people of you, Mr Deputy Speaker, on being elevated to your Tyneside went to Blaydon races, in the constituency of position? I thank you for giving me the honour of my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson). making my first speech in the House on today’s date, And, in the words of the song by Geordie Ridley, the 9 June, which has some significance in my locality. May people took the bus from Balmbra’s, a music hall in I congratulate also those other hon. Members who have central Newcastle, and proceeded on their way, meeting made their maiden speeches today? They include the many trials and tribulations along the road. I shall hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), my return to Blaydon races in due course, but I am here to hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington represent Gateshead. (Jack Dromey), the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Yes, it is a town—soon to be a city, I hope—that has Graham), my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South had many problems. Having been heavily dependent (Susan Elan Jones) and the hon. Members for Finchley upon primary industries, heavy engineering and and Golders Green (Mike Freer) and for Keighley (Kris manufacturing, the town suffered all the social and Hopkins). economic problems associated with the decline of those I particularly welcome the hon. Member for Keighley traditional industries, yet the resilience and fortitude of and his maiden speech, because I know that he, as a the people of Gateshead simply do not allow for self- former leader of Bradford city council, will bring local indulgent moaning. The former Prime Minister, government experience to the House, albeit from a Mrs Thatcher, who was spoken about warmly in an different political perspective from mine. Furthermore, earlier speech, once famously described the people of Mr Deputy Speaker, you need not worry about me the north-east as “moaning minnies”, but I can honestly undermining the British film industry by giving away say that nothing could be further from the truth. any secrets about the demise of the house elves in my Throughout the 1970s and 1980s Gateshead suffered constituency, as happened last week. from some of the worst unemployment rates on the It is with enormous pride that I stand here, honoured United Kingdom mainland. Educational attainment to represent the people of my home town, Gateshead, was to say the least poor, if not very poor, and in every where I have lived for more than 30 years. In doing so, I social and economic indicator or league table, if it was am conscious of the fact that I follow in the footsteps of good news Gateshead was near the bottom, and if it a formidable predecessor, David Clelland, the former was bad news Gateshead was inevitably near the top. MP for Tyne Bridge, whose constituency formed half However, the renaissance in Gateshead over the past the new constituency of Gateshead. The other half of 20 years has been remarkable, and a testament to the the constituency was represented in the previous Parliament support of the previous Government and, more importantly, by my hon. Friend the Member for Washington and to the clear strategic leadership of my colleagues on Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), who, I am glad to Gateshead council. say, is still with us. One example is the rejuvenation of Gateshead quays. David Clelland was not only an excellent representative Where once there stood derelict warehouses and empty of the people of the Tyne Bridge constituency and a factories, now there stands the iconic Gateshead Millennium first-class Member; he was and remains a personal bridge, BALTIC, the centre for contemporary art, and friend. Having worked with David for more years than I the magnificent Sage Gateshead, designed by Sir Norman care to remember, first as Labour party colleagues, Foster. To the south of the town centre, and just over subsequently together as councillors and, most recently, the border into the constituency of my hon. Friend the he as MP and I as deputy leader of Gateshead council, I Member for Blaydon, stands Antony Gormley’s Angel know all too well the great passion that David has of the North. We also have, in the ward that I have always devoted to representing the people of Tyne represented on the council for 27 years, Saltwell park—a Bridge and, in particular, Gateshead. David would be shining example of a Victorian municipal park visited the first to say that his work was both an honour and a by more than 2 million people annually. These are not privilege. However, I want to place on the record my just glittering buildings and monuments without substance gratitude and that of the people of Gateshead for or purpose—no, they are all internationally acclaimed David’s contribution, both as a councillor and as a and recognised, part of Gateshead council’s vision to Member of Parliament, to making Gateshead an even transform Gateshead. Indeed, the Sage Gateshead, which better place to live. I know that many Members have visited for conferences The mantle of representing Gateshead has now fallen over the past few years, has been acclaimed as one of to me. Gateshead is truly a great place, made all the the most acoustically perfect concert halls in the whole better by the people who live there. The fact that this is a world. debate on the Identity Documents Bill may be a flimsy With this transformation we have witnessed an pretext for saying that, of course, the people of Gateshead unprecedented reversal of fortunes in comparison with and of Tyneside are very proud of their distinct north-east the Gateshead of the ’70s and ’80s. From being among identity. None the less, it is true—and we do not need the areas with the worst educational achievement, any documents to prove it. One of Gateshead’s most Gateshead is now towards the top on many measures. famous inhabitants in the 19th century—possibly fictitious, In almost every aspect of life, Gateshead has been but well known—was a young lady by the name of transformed. Education, housing, social care and Cushy Butterfield, whose description in song gives us employment—all have been transformed by the support some insight into the Tyneside males’ mindset at the from a supportive Government and with leadership time: from a truly inspirational council, but most of all by the “She’s a big lass and a bonny lass and she likes her beer. resilience, fortitude and hard work of the people of And they call her Cushy Butterfield and ah wish she was here.” Gateshead themselves. 389 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 390

There is still poverty. There is still hardship. There are Some went to the dispensary still too many lives untouched by change. But to anyone And some to Doctor Gibbs who doubts that Britain has got better since we took And some to the infirmary over from the Tories in 1997, I say this: come to Gateshead To mend their broken ribs.” and see what the people here have achieved. Those are But the bulk of them carried on, and went to Blaydon not my words, but those of the former Prime Minister, races. the right hon. Tony Blair, five years ago at the Labour Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity spring conference. Indeed, our current Prime Minister to speak on behalf of the people of Gateshead, whom I was gracious enough to acknowledge that his party had am very proud to represent. been well received on their visit to Gateshead at the same venue—and yes, I truly would welcome him back 4.4 pm to my constituency should he take up my offer to return with his party’s conference in the future. Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): Thank you for calling me to make my maiden speech, Mr Deputy As I consider the task of representing the interests of Speaker, especially on the day when you take the Chair Gateshead, it is that record of achievement that I will be for the first time. May I say how personally pleased I am defending. Having been deeply involved, as the former to see you in the role? deputy leader of Gateshead council, in Gateshead’s renaissance, I know how substantial the changes have I should like to start, as is customary, by referring to been. However, I also know just how fragile this recovery my predecessor in what was then the constituency of could be. Gateshead’s strength is its people—their Elmet. Mr Colin Burgon was a Labour MP from 1997 intelligence, their hard work and, most of all, their until he retired at the election just gone. It would caring and deep sense of community. We are, and will probably be fair to say to anybody who knew Mr Burgon always remain, remote from the economic centre of the that our politics probably could not have been further United Kingdom and from the European and world apart if we had tried. This was a man who was well and markets. In a free-market global economy, Gateshead truly on the left of the Labour party and indeed had a needs governmental support. In the north-east, more passionate interest, and I believe still does to this day, in than 30% of the workforce is employed in the extended Venezuela and Hugo Chávez. However, although we public sector; in my borough of Gateshead that figure is were so diametrically opposed in our politics, I always probably closer to 40%. found him to be courteous and an honourable Member of Parliament who looked after his constituents. During Like many others in the north-east, I remember all my time as the candidate for the new Elmet and Rothwell too vividly the social unrest and devastation that was constituency, he was more than willing to pick up the the 1980s: soaring unemployment, poverty, frustration, phone, discuss constituency matters that may have come increasing alienation and a crippling sense of hopelessness. my way and return calls—an honourable man indeed. Gateshead, and indeed Britain today, is a far better place, and it is my duty to the people of Gateshead to I was looking through Mr Burgon’s maiden speech ensure there will be no return to those bad days. I will and noticed it to be full of historical references to the play my part. I will speak up for Gateshead and its Elmet constituency, which does not surprise me because people. I will ensure that the interests of the people I he was a scholar of history. Being an engineer, I am represent will not be forgotten or overlooked. I know little able to emulate such a speech, but I can tell that my former colleagues in Gateshead council will Members that the Elmet and Rothwell seat, as it now is, also play their part. has had many boundary changes, starting with the Great Reform Act in 1832. I am the first ever Conservative As for the new Government: be warned, I will be MP to represent the town of Rothwell, which was its watching. My colleagues and I will no doubt scrutinise own constituency between 1917 and 1950, and I am every single proposal that comes out of Government. very proud indeed to do so. Our aim will be to ensure that the social costs of deficit reductions caused by a recession that was caused by the As I said, the constituency started to get some of its greed and incompetence of bankers and speculators are boundaries in the Great Reform Act of 1832, and there not simply passed on to the poorest in our communities. have been no fewer than 10 boundary changes bringing us up to the recent election. However, many people have I know that the responsibility of governing is great, stopped me in this place and asked, “Where is Elmet and the new coalition will meet its tribulations along and Rothwell?” The Rothwell bit gives it away, but the the way, but if they follow the example of the Tyneside Elmet bit does not. It is actually a Leeds constituency, folk on their way to Blaydon races, they may survive, for and I like to describe it as the piece of countryside a time: between Leeds and North Yorkshire. Members may be “But gannin ower the Railway Bridge interested to know that Elmet was actually the last The bus wheel flew off there Celtic kingdom in England, and I shall draw on that The lasses lost their crinolines fact later. And veils that hide their faces It is interesting that I am classed as a Leeds MP, and I got two black eyes and a broken nose that is why I felt it appropriate to stand up in this debate In gannin to Blaydon races.” to make my maiden speech. We are talking about the But undaunted they went on: abolition of the Identity Cards Act 2006. If identity “Now when we got the wheel back on”— cards had been in place, they would not have stopped the 7/7 bombings in 2005 in any shape or form. Of because the wheel does come off occasionally— course, the people involved came from Leeds, which “Away we went again took a very hard hit, not least in the international press, But them that had their noses broke which described the north of England as some derelict They went back ower hyem wasteland and asked whether it was any surprise that 391 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 392

[Alec Shelbrooke] and as we move south through the constituency, we move into former mining areas. I will not shy away from terrorists came from it. It was described as some sort of the fact that those mining areas were affected, not least third-world country. However, I can assure Members in 1994 by the closure of the last colliery, at Allerton that Leeds is one of the most vibrant cities in this Bywater. However, Allerton Bywater as a village is now country, and one for which I was very proud to be a starting to move forward, and already I am involved in councillor for six years while we were governing the city. casework with Business Link in Yorkshire that could I am now exceptionally proud to be a Member of help to secure 10 jobs in that small village and regenerate Parliament within it. it. Such regeneration is important, and those are my key My predecessor, and his predecessor, my former priorities in this first term. Conservative colleague Spencer Batiste, who was the However, I have a long-term aim, and I made it quite MP from 1983 to 1997, were both honourable gentlemen. clear to my constituents in the election that although it After what went on in the previous Parliament, we all is a promise and something I want to move forward, need to be honourable Members and bring faith back to they will not see any results for a very long time. Indeed, politics. by the time they see results, I may well not even be the As I have said, my constituency is the slice of countryside Member of Parliament for the area. I am talking about between Leeds and North Yorkshire. I will probably rail links. More than 30,000 people in my constituency, send my hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty in a major metropolitan city, have absolutely no rail (Nigel Adams) into apoplexy by saying that after the links whatever, after the branch lines were removed in boundary changes, the old kingdom of Elmet actually the Beeching review. The town of Wetherby serves a stretches across into North Yorkshire. That causes some huge number of people in the commuter belt to Leeds concern, because people say to me, “Oh, you must who must all travel down the A58 and, latterly, the represent me in Sherburn-in-Elmet”, but I do not, because A1 link road. that is a North Yorkshire village and is part of my hon. However, rail links are not just about allowing those Friend’s seat. I therefore lay down a marker at this early people to travel to Leeds more efficiently and effectively; stage that that may be something to consider. they will also ease-up the congestion that blights everyone Many colleagues have offered advice on making a in constituencies on the east side of the city. Therefore, I maiden speech and said, “This will be one of the most am laying down that marker. I will be working with important speeches that you ever make in this House. It Network Rail and taking a keen interest in the high will be the one that is read for time immemorial by speed rail policy as it moves through the House. Let us every successor you have in the seat, and people might be honest, in the economic circumstances, the chances look it up if you go on to greater things.” Nobody reads of us getting a branch line rail link built to Wetherby the third speech made by my right hon. Friend the and surrounding villages, just to serve them, are pretty Prime Minister, but they do read his maiden speech, so I slim. However, high speed rail is a major national am putting down a marker for anybody who might project, and there would appear to be opportunities to come along to research my maiden speech: if you go branch off that line to serve people in my constituency and have a look at my third or fourth speech, you might much more effectively and efficiently. have a slightly better idea of who I am as a politician, I shall close by drawing on what I said earlier. We because the maiden speech is a somewhat daunting need to restore faith in politics, and I think we are process, and hopefully, MPs relax as they grow into making a good start with such a great intake of new their role. MPs, and with returning hon. Members realising that I should like to outline to the House two priorities for much work needs to be done to improve this place. I just me in this Parliament, the first of which—increasing hope that as we move forward in this Parliament, my job security and job numbers—I hope will be a successful constituents will be very proud to call me their Member policy of this Government. I am lucky in that although of Parliament. my constituency suffers unemployment, it is not massively affected by it. However, my constituents are very worried 4.14 pm about the jobs they are in, which I heard time and again, and about securing the economic recovery and Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): To avoid job security. any misunderstanding, I make it clear that I am not There are great areas of regeneration in my constituency, making my maiden speech—I did that quite a few years and there are some innovative, technological companies, ago! I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Elmet and some of which, including the LNT Group in the town Rothwell (Alec Shelbrooke) for his fine speech, and to of Garforth in my constituency, have excellent everyone else who has spoken today, including my hon. apprenticeship schemes. The LNT Group is an excellent Friends the Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack company, and gives people real opportunities. Recently, Dromey), for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) and for it hired people who had unsuccessfully tried their hand Gateshead (Ian Mearns). They will I am sure all make at private business, in small enterprises. Those people valuable contributions to the House and the parliamentary were able to find employment with that well-regarded party. local employer. That is just one story about the companies I have opposed identity cards from the start, and I in my constituency. I very much hope that I can work dispute with the Home Secretary, who gave the impression closely with the Government to ensure that the policies that the Conservatives hold the high ground, that they—and we introduce will benefit all my constituents, as well as they alone—have stood against identity cards from the the country. beginning. That is not the position. Inevitably, if we are I mentioned regeneration in the constituency. It is a frank, there have been divisions within the two main strange constituency, in the sense that the northern part parties over identity cards—some being for, some opposed. of it is very affluent and has a lot of farming history, My right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary 393 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 394 referred to a ten-minute Bill put forward by a Conservative emergency situation such as war should not prevail in Member, but I shall go back further. In July 1988, a peacetime. It was the Churchill Government, elected in ten-minute Bill was proposed by another Conservative 1951, who then did away with that law. Member, who is no longer in the House, with the purpose of bringing in identity cards. It is interesting to Mr Winnick: The hon. Gentleman, who is my note that the Bill was defeated, even though the constituency neighbour, and I never agree on economic Conservatives had a majority, and that not one Labour issues, but we tend to share certain views on civil Member voted in favour. Everyone who voted for the liberties. He is right in what he says about the Churchill unsuccessful Bill was Conservative, so no high-ground Government, and I am sure that the Attlee Government propaganda please, because it serves no purpose. would have done the same, had they been re-elected in Incidentally, taking part in that Division 22 years ago, 1951. We are going back a long time, but I am not aware in the No Lobby of course, was someone we all know— that the Conservative Opposition in the 1945 Parliament Tony Blair. I think his views somewhat changed later argued for the abolition of identity cards. I am glad that on. those cards were abolished; I did not want to see them As my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary come back after half a century. said, in August 1996, when Michael Howard was Home Secretary, it was announced that the Conservative Dr Huppert rose— Government intended to introduce an ID cards scheme. So, again, there is clear evidence that the Conservative Mr Winnick: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, I party, at one stage, considered ID cards to be essential. want to move on to function creep, which is another The Conservatives thought that not for dubious reasons, factor. In evidence to the Home Affairs Committee, the but for the same reasons my party concluded—wrongly, point was made that when identity cards were introduced in my view—that ID cards were necessary. My opposition in 1939—and rightly so in the circumstances of those persisted when the Labour Government decided to days—there were three reasons for doing so: conscription, bring in the cards. Moreover, under a Labour majority, national security and food rationing. By 1950, there a comprehensive inquiry was conducted by the Home were no fewer than 35 stated purposes as to why an Affairs Committee, and I was the only person on that identity card was necessary, one of which, incidentally, Committee who voted against the scheme. Conservative was the prevention of bigamous marriages. We have not Members voted with Labour Members in favour of ID heard an argument in the recent debate that ID cards cards in 2004. are necessary for that purpose. I have always taken the view that my opposition is absolutely firm, except for one factor: if I could be Dr Huppert: I am sorry to intrude on an Attlee versus persuaded that ID cards would help in the fight against Churchill argument, but the hon. Gentleman should terrorism, I would change my mind, because I believe—I perhaps remember that Clarence Willcock was a Liberal am sure the same applies to all Members of the House—that candidate, and when asked to explain what he did, he the security and safety of our country and people must said: come first. Were there such evidence, I would reluctantly “I am a Liberal and I am against this sort of thing.” support ID cards. However, as has been said enough That is a clear precedent. Had there been a Liberal times today, there is no evidence that terrorism would Government at that time, ID cards would definitely be prevented by ID cards. The atrocities on 7 July 2005 have been scrapped. would not have been prevented. Reference has been made already to the atrocity a year earlier in Madrid, Mr Winnick: The chances of having a Liberal where more than 100 people were murdered by al-Qaeda, Government in 1950 were as remote as having a Communist and there is no evidence that ID cards in Spain could Government, but be that as it may; the hon. Gentleman have prevented, or did prevent, such atrocities. has made his point. As to the argument sometimes put forward that, It has sometimes been argued that biometrics provide although identity cards would not and did not prevent an additional important difference from previous identity such atrocities—I only wish they could have done—they cards in Europe, but when evidence was given by experts— nevertheless helped to bring the culprits to justice, I their expertise was not in doubt—before the Home have to say that there is very little evidence for that. We Affairs Committee, considerable technical doubt was need to bear in mind, of course, that for years, Spain thrown over the extent to which biometrics would necessarily faced a different terrorist campaign from ETA, but always be reliable. As for the national identity register, I again identity cards have hardly helped in any way. have listened over the years to the arguments as to why The police remain in favour of identity cards, but no it is necessary and all I can say is that, again, I have not one is surprised by that. In making his maiden speech been persuaded. It is suggested that such information is earlier today, the hon. Member for Finchley and Golders necessary for national insurance and passports and Green (Mike Freer) made a valid point about what therefore why should we worry about it for identity happened in 1952, I believe, when a person refused to cards, but surely the difference is that, although the show his identity card to a police constable. What other documents are not the subject of any controversy, happened to the person was upheld by the courts and identity cards are, because in the main they are one step identity cards were abolished. too far, which remains the view held by many people in this country. Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I am not arguing—it would be a foolish argument—that No, the person was found guilty; the law was the law. In if identity cards had been introduced into Britain, we the judgment, however, the reason why the law was would have become a sort of semi-police state. That is intolerable was given: its maintenance for a security or absolute nonsense, but I do believe that they would have 395 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 396

[Mr Winnick] We have significant historical connections with America, as can be seen in the 14th-century Washington window been an infringement of civil liberties. When we look at of Selby abbey, which bears the Washington family other European countries and fellow members of the arms and is believed to have been used as the basis for European Union that do have identity cards, we find the American flag, the Stars and Stripes. I urge all hon. that they are certainly not police states. Some have a Members to visit the abbey to see that wonderful spectacle. very dubious past, but we are very pleased that they are The bulk of the new constituency consists of the old now no less democratic than we are. They have a Selby seat. I pay tribute to John Grogan, the former different history, and our history—one that I want to Member of Parliament for Selby, who was the first and see maintained—suggests that in peacetime we should last Labour Member to represent the constituency. I not have identity cards, as they do not do what they are have always found him extremely courteous, and he has supposed to do. I wish that the whole issue had not been been an excellent local MP and advocate for Selby both raised either by the Conservatives or by Labour over the in Yorkshire and in the House. Despite our obvious past 22 years. political differences, he and I share a number of interests. I have many differences with the Conservative Given that the brewing town of Tadcaster is in the Government. Only yesterday I gave an indication of my constituency, it is difficult not to be a fan of beer. In feelings about the cuts: along with my Labour colleagues, fact, you do not get to be my size without being a I will defend the position of those who are least able to significant fan of beer. We are both also passionate bear the burden. There will be many battles with the supporters of Yorkshire county cricket club. He and Conservative Government, and, as I have said, we will many other hon. Members—perhaps even including not hesitate to defend the people who sent us here. you, Mr Deputy Speaker, although you represent a However, I am pleased that identity cards are to be Lancastrian seat—will be thrilled that the world’s greatest abolished. cricket club is riding high again in the county championship. Who knows what may happen in four or five years, Mr Grogan has expressed an interest in returning to the but I think it most unlikely that we in the Labour party House and I wish him well in that endeavour, although will employ identity cards as one of the features of the not too well if he is considering a return to Selby. next general election campaign. I want to see the issue I pay tribute to John Grogan’s predecessor, the late buried for good. There is no necessity for identity cards, Michael Alison, who represented Selby and its predecessor and I hope that, at long last, both sides in the House of Barkston Ash in the House. The fact that I took an Commons will reach the view held by me and by a interest in politics is down to him. I saw at first hand, as number of other Labour Members that we should not a child in the 1970s, the help that he gave my parents in have them in peacetime. attaining a grant to install central heating in our home. Some years later, I had the opportunity to repay that good deed. It was during the 1992 election. I received 4.26 pm his campaign leaflet through my door with a hand-written Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con): I congratulate note. I was very impressed, so I called his agent and you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, on your magnificent election asked whether there was anything that I could do to victory and elevation to the Chair. I am delighted to be help Mr Alison’s campaign in the election, however able to give my maiden speech today, and pleased to be small. That offer of help was my first political mistake, able to speak in a debate on the Identity Documents as the following day around 1,000 leaflets arrived on my Bill, but given that this is my maiden speech, I hope you doorstep with a note that read, will forgive me if I drift into one or two other subject “Please call the office if you need any more.” areas. In addition to the Selby district, the remainder of the I have enjoyed the excellent contributions made by new seat is referred to as Ainsty. There is not an actual many maiden speakers today, particularly those of my place called Ainsty but, like Elmet, it is an ancient hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec wapentake. The area is made up of four wards from the Shelbrooke) and my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley Harrogate borough and takes in villages west of York, (Kris Hopkins), who has just disappeared from the skirting around Wetherby and Harrogate. The area was Chamber. previously served in the House partly by David Curry, There is no greater honour, privilege or responsibility who diligently served as MP for Skipton and Ripon for than being elected to Parliament to represent the 23 years, and partly by my hon. Friend the Member for constituency in which I grew up, was educated and have Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), who was the only lived for most of my life. Selby and Ainsty is a new seat, ever Member for Vale of York. I welcome her, albeit which the Boundary Commission had the very good belatedly, back to the House. sense to create and, hopefully, will have the very good Sadly, over recent years, we have seen an increase in sense to keep. It is a largely rural seat with more than unemployment and our area has lost many businesses, 100 villages and hamlets covering the area between including chemical factories, the paper mill and the York, Harrogate and Pontefract in the south. I assure short-lived Selby coalfield. I have personal experience my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell of redundancy and the despair that it can cause, so that the residents of Sherburn-in-Elmet are more than trying to get people back into work will be a personal happy with the current boundary arrangements. priority for me. Selby is the largest settlement in the constituency. It is Coal mining has now disappeared from the constituency. a market town, and although it was originally a shipbuilding As the grandson of a coal miner, I was thrilled to town on the River Ouse, its economy is now largely receive help from former coal miners canvassing and based on agriculture, tourism to our stunning abbey, delivering leaflets in my election campaign, although and its status as a commuter town for Leeds and York. not all the people from former mining communities 397 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 398 have supported my endeavours and candidacy. May I There are in my constituency the sites of two of the share with Members a quick story that involves a recent bloodiest battles ever fought in England: the battle of family funeral in a village called Grimethorpe. Some Towton in 1461 in the war of the roses, which resulted— Members may know that that is not yet a Conservative quite rightly—in a decisive victory for the Yorkists, and stronghold in South Yorkshire, but my cousin approached the battle of Marston Moor in 1644, where Cromwell’s me to say that it was the first time that he had ever parliamentarians prevailed. I am not an advocate of a shaken hands with a Tory and that it would be the last. return to civil war, but I am an advocate of civil liberties. He went on to say: Under the previous Government, there was an “thee grandfather would be turning in his grave if he knew tha’ unprecedented attack on Britain’s historic freedoms, wants to be a Tory MP”. and I am convinced that an ID card would be a further I would like to think that my grandfather might also infringement of those freedoms. I promise that for as have been secretly proud. I know that my late mother long as I sit in this House I will fight hard for the would have been. interests of my constituents, although my methods may The Selby and Ainsty seat does its bit for energy be slightly less bloody than those adopted at Towton production with two large coal-fired power stations: and Marston Moor. Drax and Eggborough. Drax alone provides 7% of the I am grateful to have had this opportunity to address UK’s electricity needs. It has plans to build three new the House for the first time, and I thank the good large-scale dedicated biomass plants alongside the co-firing people of Selby and Ainsty for putting their trust in me. facility at its existing coal-fired station, which could I intend to repay that trust with all I have. result in Drax becoming responsible for supplying at least 15% of the UK’s renewable power and up to 4.38 pm 10% of total UK electricity. The total renewable capacity Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): I am very grateful could be enough to power 2 million homes, which is the to have been given an opportunity to make my maiden equivalent output of 2,000 wind turbines. speech in this debate. Whatever disagreements different Regular readers of the Selby Times and The Press in Members and political parties may have about how to York—I am sure that there are many of those in the tackle crime, terrorism and identity theft, we can all House this afternoon—will be aware that in the seat agree that they are issues of great concern to our there are several controversial applications, including constituents, and it is for all of us to address them. I for onshore wind farms and incinerators, which are congratulate every Member who has made their maiden causing great concern to local residents. A total of speech today. They were truly excellent speeches, which 30 turbines are in planning, each over 400 feet high and I must now follow. taller than power station cooling towers. More are Let me begin by paying tribute to my predecessor, being scoped by developers. If all the applications go Geoff Hoon, who represented Ashfield for 18 years. ahead, the landscape of our district will be blighted by a Geoff was a barrister by trade but was born and bred forest of windmills that will do little to meet our desire into a long line of railwaymen, and I know that the to reduce carbon emissions. I agree that wind power values he learned from his family shaped his political should play a part in a mix of renewable sources, but it outlook. Above all, he was determined to put those would be a better idea to install them where the wind values into practice as a Minister. He spent six years as blows fairly regularly: offshore. Secretary of State for Defence, making him the second Residents elsewhere in the constituency face many longest-serving Defence Secretary to date. Much of different challenges, including several unauthorised Traveller that is known about Geoff, but less well known is his encampments, where land has been bought and camps passion for pop music and his encyclopaedic knowledge set up without permission. One of them is even of bands of the 1960s and ’70s. Geoff Hoon was very masquerading as a caravan sales site, and just below serious about his music, and, to be honest, he would that sales sign there is another sign saying, “Enter at probably cringe if he looked at the music on my iPod. your own risk.”That is not the most welcoming marketing Ashfield is a constituency shaped by industry, and slogan for a supposed caravan retailer. Local authorities proud of it—and those industrial roots have shaped must be given more powers to prevent such law-flouting, those privileged enough to represent it. Everywhere I and I am encouraged by this Government’s proposals to went during the election campaign, I was reminded just curtail the ability to apply for retrospective planning how large the shoes are that I have to fill—including permission and to create a new criminal offence of those of Frank Haynes, who, after years below ground intentional trespass. Law-abiding citizens are expected as a miner, represented Ashfield in this House from to jump through hoops if they want to build anything in 1979 to 1992. In doing my research, I learned that rural areas, and it is plain wrong that certain groups get Frank was famous for having one of the loudest voices special treatment to bypass the rules. in the House of Commons. When I promised the voters Small businesses are the lifeblood of the community of Ashfield that, if they sent me to Parliament, I would in my constituency, and they are the engine room for shout up for them, I was speaking metaphorically. any local economy. Like everyone, they have been hit Frank clearly promised the same thing, but meant it hard by the recent downturn. They have been overtaxed quite literally. He was loved my many in Ashfield and by and burdened with red tape. There is no better illustration many in this House. Everyone tells me how popular he of this than my county council’s decision to ban on was. His key quality, which I shall always try to emulate, health and safety grounds Selby traders from placing an was that he was always himself. I love the image of him A-board on the pavement outside their premises. In the asking Margaret Thatcher a tough question at Prime midst of a recession, I can think of no more ridiculous Minister’s questions and calling her “duckie”, which is piece of over-zealous bureaucracy than to threaten the legendary term of endearment that Nottinghamshire small firms with large fines for daring to advertise their folk use every day. I am assured that the Iron Lady wares to potential customers. smiled. 399 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 400

[Gloria De Piero] It is ironic that the so-called new politics, which suggests that state and society are somehow opposed I am the first Member of Parliament to begin serving and that one can flourish only if the other withdraws, Ashfield with no local men underground mining for should so precisely mirror the mistakes made by the coal. Our most famous sons were from mining backgrounds. worst members of old Labour. They sometimes gave the They include Harold Larwood, a Nottinghamshire and impression that the state knew best and should dictate England fast bowler who left school at 14, before the what happened. Underneath its rhetoric, the new politics war, to work in the mines. His statue still stands today in represents the flip side of the same coin. Its adherents Kirkby-in-Ashfield. D. H. Lawrence was born in the seek to trumpet society at the expense of the state, town of Eastwood and was the son of a miner who which the Conservative party says should be smaller as could barely read. He called Eastwood “the country of a matter of principle. I do not know whether its supposed my heart”. It is not only the decline of mining that has partners agree with that, but I guess that we will find hit Ashfield hard. I am delighted to be here as the first out eventually. woman to represent the constituency, because women It is dogma to suggest that, if we roll back the state, played a full part in building Ashfield’s prosperity by the big society will flourish in its wake. Places like working in the textile industry, but one by one the Ashfield need strong communities and strong government. textile factories have gone the way of the pits. Yes, new If that means big government, then that is fine if that is jobs have been created, but too often they do not pay as what is needed. We do not need big government for its well or offer the job security of those they replaced, and own sake, of course, but we do need strong and active there are not enough of them. government, for a purpose. After all, were Sure Start or Ashfield could be forgiven for thinking that its best community support officers examples of big government? days were behind it, but my mission in representing the Is a Government-initiated apprenticeship one? people of my constituency in this House is to prove that Today, Ashfield needs a new economic backbone to that fear is misplaced, because the thing that has seen enable local people to develop their talents and become Ashfield through good times and bad is its sense of the D.H. Lawrences and Larwoods of the future. We community. Indeed, I could say that the big society is need it to promote the talents of people who come from alive and well there. For us, that is not a smart phrase Ashfield and ensure that those talents stay in the area to invented by those from the leafy lanes of Notting Hill: develop its future economic strength. one can smell it in the novels of Lawrence and see it We know that tough economic times lie ahead. Ashfield there today. Every village has its community hub: the can cope with a lot, but it is up to Government to help Stanton Hill community shop, the Huthwaite community us. Ashfield is a place with a tremendous sense of action group, the Eastwood volunteer bureau, the Kirkby community, but we need the Government to help us on volunteer bureau, the Acacia avenue community centre the way. Ashfield has a big heart and lies at the heart of and the Friends of Colliers Wood—I could go on and England. We will be as strong, vibrant and successful as on. We do not just look out for each other in Ashfield; we were in our heyday, but such a renaissance will we stand up for ourselves, too, as those involved in the happen only with a strong state and a strong society Kirkby and Sutton area residents associations prove working hand in hand. If hon. Members on the every day by trying to keep the green fields in Ashfield Government Benches cannot see that and make it happen, green. D. H. Lawrence might be our historical hero, but when we get our chance, we will. it is the local heroes who are alive and well today that I want to support and pay tribute to. We can read about 4.46 pm them each week in the Ashfield Chad and the Eastwood Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Thank you for & Kimberley Advertiser. calling me to speak, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I came from a pretty poor background, and I believe congratulations on your election. It is nice to see so that it is thanks to my party speaking up for people many elections in this place at the moment. from backgrounds such as my own that I was able to go It is a great honour to follow so many maiden speeches, to university, have a successful media career and today from hon. Members on both sides of the House. I pay speak from these green Benches. I believe that Governments particular tribute to the hon. Member for Ashfield can and should help to transform people’s lives for the (Gloria De Piero), who gave a very confident and stylish better. Of course it takes individual effort and the description of Ashfield and the value of community in support of the family, but there is something else that that area. transforms people’s lives, and that is community. On the subject of ID cards, it is also a great privilege I know that it is fashionable for some on the Government to follow the hon. Members for Perth and North Perthshire Front Bench to talk about community, and I am delighted (Pete Wishart) and for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). that they have rediscovered the word—along with They have been steadfast in their stance on this matter, “society”—but I am not convinced that they really and have agreed with the Liberal Democrats that ID understand it. They have presented a false divide between cards have always been wrong. I am delighted to follow the big society and big government. I am arguing for an them. enabling Government who help people to come together Identity cards have always been a passion of mine. I and look after their interests. It is not a matter of was a very early member of NO2ID and was very choosing between society and the state; it is about involved in its campaigning. I pay tribute to the work of binding the two together, for then, truly, the whole is that organisation—to Phil Booth, for his work nationally, worth more than the sum of the parts. The result is an and to Andrew Watson, the eastern co-ordinator. empowered community and a flexible, responsive, enabling The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack state, working together, rather than one replacing the Dromey) said that the issue of ID cards did not come other. up in his constituency during the election. In my 401 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 402 constituency of Cambridge, one of the largest of the about the cost to all the people who had to buy the 35 hustings that we held was organised by NO2ID, cards and would have continued to buy the cards under along with Oxfam and Amnesty International. The the Labour Government’s scheme. We are limiting the subject came up at almost every one of the other cost to them as much as we can, as well as limiting the hustings that we had. cost to the public purse. As we have heard, there would The ID card proposal also caused me to be involved have been continued costs for them in the form of fines with Liberty, which was mentioned earlier. I was elected and the cost of keeping the database going. to its national council, partly through my interest in This Bill is not exactly as I would have drafted it. As a identity cards and my understanding of what was new Member, I certainly would not have written it in happening. I am therefore delighted that one of the first this particular style, but I suspect that I will have to get steps of this coalition Government is to get rid of used to that. I would like clarity to be provided on a identity cards, finally. couple of points as this Bill goes through the rest of its Why do I oppose ID cards? I have always thought process. We have discussed mission creep, and I am very that there are three main reasons why we should not concerned about overly broad descriptions. We have have them: the issues of principle, practice and price. seen from the previous Government how something We have talked about the principle, and we have heard that seems fairly good in law can be taken wider and how Clarence Henry Willcock, the Liberal from Finchley wider until we find that somebody can be convicted for and Golders Green, objected in 1950. He was the last making a joke on Twitter. We must be careful about person to be convicted under the National Registration what we say, and I hope that we will have a chance to Act 1939, and his case led to a change in the law. explore what “relevant information”means in clause 10(3) What was said on appeal is particularly interesting. and exactly how that is to be controlled. Lord Goddard, the Lord Chief Justice, said that the use I would also like to understand more about clause 4, of identity cards in particular subsection 2(b), which makes it an offence “tends to make people resentful of the acts of the police, and to use documentation for “ascertaining or verifying” inclines them to obstruct the police instead of assisting them.” information about somebody. I wish to understand That was true in 1952, and it is true now. exactly what that means. If I were to take a family That deals with the question of principle, but what member’s passport to someone else to prove who they about identity cards in practice? They, and the much are, would that be an offence? I have concerns about worse identity register, are part of a complex Government that, given how the provision is drafted. We should IT project. We know what happens to such projects—they explore that in Committee, when I am sure the Government tend not to work very well, they cost too much, there will make it clear how I have misinterpreted that and are a security problems, and they are hard to implement. why I should not worry. I hear some complaints from Opposition Members, but The other issue that should come up in our discussion my comments are not just targeted at the previous is identity cards for foreign nationals—or any other Government, because this is a general problem of such term that we might use. I disagree with some of the Government IT projects across the world. Mission creep comments made about that, because I consider that is also a problem, because one starts off by collecting such cards are discriminatory. We should be getting rid only a little information and gradually more and more of all these identity cards, whoever they are for in this is obtained. That has occurred in too many instances. country. They are discriminatory and they involve the same problems that we have discussed: they do not Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): On work very well, and they involve the same problems of mission creep, is my hon. Friend aware that when this cost, practicality and keeping a database secure. I hope matter and a statutory instrument were being debated, that this Government will examine that issue, either the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell), who later during the passage of this Bill or in a future Bill. is in his place, expressed an interest in using any spare Someone who did buy an identity card has asked me capacity on the chip to store other information, but he what now happens to it and to the money that they was not able to tell us what that information would be? spent. That is a fascinating issue, and I should be Is that not a good illustration of how mission creep interested if the Government were to work out what the might arise without people realising it? cost would be of maintaining the entire system and all Dr Huppert: Indeed it is, and I thank my hon. Friend the back-up systems to service the 15,000 people in that for that intervention. I was not aware of the history of position. That involves issues relating to interaction. that debate, but what he describes is exactly the sort of [Interruption.] If, as the hon. Member for Hackney problem that occurs: extra information ends up being South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) is suggesting, it is stored and what starts off as—possibly—a semi-innocent free, that would also be useful to know. project becomes more and more sinister. A lot of work I was interested to hear the shadow Home Secretary’s has been done on this by a colleague in Cambridge, line that no changes should be made when a new Professor Ross Anderson. I pay tribute to his work on Government come into power, and that it is somehow that and on summary care records, which also relates to wrong ever to change anything that has happened. I Government IT systems. I hope that hon. Members will seem to remember Gordon Brown changing a few things sign my early-day motion 186 and persuade this when he came into office in 1997, and that affecting Government not to go ahead with that awful project decisions previously made on tax changes. We cannot too. have a system whereby Governments cannot change The price of ID cards was also an issue, and we heard decisions made previously for fear that they might some argument about the exact cost to the public purse affect people inadvertently. earlier. I say to the shadow Home Secretary that it is not In general, I support this Bill and I am delighted to just the public purse that matters; we should also care see it, because it is a wonderful start of real liberal 403 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 404

[Dr Huppert] implemented. I note that the Opposition’s position is not to oppose what the Government propose to do values in this new coalition. It is a real start on rebalancing tonight, and we are right not to oppose them, because the relationship between the citizen and the state, and I the proposal was clearly a Conservative manifesto hope that it will be the first of many acts of a reforming, commitment. Together with their coalition partners, the progressive Government. Conservatives command a large majority in the House, as we saw in yesterday’s votes. The Government have 4.54 pm decided that their first home affairs Bill should be on ID cards, and it is right and proper that we in the Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I congratulate you, Opposition should accept the will of the people. Mr Deputy Speaker, on your election and on the fact that you are sitting in the Chair. I wish you many years I hope that as the Bill proceeds through Committee as a Deputy Speaker of the House. some of the comments that have been made by Opposition Members will be taken into account. There are three It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for areas that I want to raise with the Minister, whom I Cambridge (Dr Huppert). He reminded me that that is welcome to the Dispatch Box. His official title is the where I first joined the Labour party when I was a Minister for Immigration, but I know that he is covering student. It is also where I first met and heard a speech the Front Bench for the rest of his team today. It must by the Secretary of State for International Development be very pleasant for him to sit in the Home Office with and where I met the right hon. Member for West Dorset the permanent secretary and all those fine people bearing (Mr Letwin) and the hon. Member for Aylesbury in mind what happened to him in opposition and I wish (Mr Lidington). All of them are now in the Government him a long stay at the Home Office. and one of them has my old job as the Minister for Europe. The hon. Member for Cambridge gave a very When the Minister winds up, if he is to do so, will he intelligent speech, and I am sure that he will make a answer a few factual points that would be of value to huge contribution to the House in the years to come. the House in making its decision tonight? First, can he Cambridge has always been a swing seat and I congratulate give some clarity as to the number of identity cards that him on making sure that he kept it for his party at the have been issued so far? The figure of 15,000 has been last election. given. I am afraid that I do not know what the process is—are cards still being issued, or did that stop with the We have had some magnificent maiden speeches. In election of the Government? Of course, the Government fact, it should be compulsory for older Members to aim to stop the cards, but is the process ongoing? Will come and listen to the kind of speeches that we have the number reach 15,000-plus? It would be sensible to heard. The hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel stop the whole process immediately even though the Adams), who is just about to leave the Chamber—I am House has not yet made a decision, because it would be not trying to stop him—has not only made a wonderful completely unfair for members of the public voluntarily maiden speech, but already covered himself in glory by to get identity cards that we shortly after take away having been on the victorious side in the tug of war from them. If the Minister could give us clarity on that between the House of Lords and the House of Commons. point, I should be extremely grateful. The cup is displayed in the Tea Room, I think. I am not sure what it is to be filled with, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I am sure that you, he and all of us will join in ensuring Steve McCabe: Does my right hon. Friend think it that it is emptied. would be useful to seek clarity for people whose applications may be in the system? They may have already paid. I first met my hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield What will happen to them? We heard earlier that they (Gloria De Piero) as a member of the national executive will not get their money back. committee of the Labour party. When I first heard her speak, I knew that she would become a Member of Parliament, but I had no idea that she would speak so Keith Vaz: Absolutely. We need to know the numbers eloquently in her maiden speech in the House. She in the system, but as the Home Secretary made it clear made a brilliant speech in which she paid tribute to that money would not be returned, I do not think we Geoff Hoon, who was a very good friend to all on both need further clarification about that. sides of the House—we wish him well in his career. I It would be helpful to know how many foreign nationals know that my hon. Friend will be able to make a huge have received what are no longer to be regarded as contribution in the years to come. I congratulate her identity cards. The Home Secretary said that that process and all the hon. Members who made their maiden would continue and we understand the reasons why, but speeches and then had to disappear to recover from the if there is to be differentiation of foreign nationals and great experience of addressing the House for the first those of us who are British citizens, we need to be clear time. They were so good that I wish I could rewrite my about it. Looking at some of our previous debates, we maiden speech and give it again, but that is probably see that one of the criticisms the Government made against the rules and even you, Mr Deputy Speaker, when they were in opposition was that there was with your new powers would not enable me to do that. differentiation of foreign nationals and British citizens. Let me concentrate on the Identity Documents Bill Presumably, we now have a completely different process, and recognise the presence on the Labour Front Bench but no doubt the Government will continue to issue of the former Minister with responsibility for ID cards, those cards. my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North Shoreditch (Meg Hillier). She appeared before the Select (Mr Winnick), who told me he would have to leave the Committee on Home Affairs in the last Parliament and, Chamber, mentioned a Home Affairs Committee report in her own style, gave us important information as to from a previous Parliament when I was not the Chair—it why the scheme would be successful when it was fully was my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, 405 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 406

Itchen (Mr Denham)—although I think the hon. Member David T. C. Davies: I am grateful to the right hon. for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) may have been a Gentleman, who has been an excellent Chairman of the member of the Committee at the time. I congratulate Select Committee. I suggest to him that if we were the hon. Gentleman on his unopposed election as Chair unable as a Parliament to look after our own data on of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs. Unopposed the activities of MPs, it will be difficult for the public to election is a good form of democracy, although have any confidence that we will do a better job with unfortunately it did not apply to other Select Committees. their data. I wish him well and I hope that he will take to his new chairmanship some of the excitement of serving on the Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is right; we have to be Home Affairs Committee. very careful with data protection and the way in which we look after data. We have not had a lost disc for some My hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North made time; at least, not for the last three weeks, which is great play of the fact that he was the only member of pretty good. The last major loss was several months, if the Select Committee to vote against identity cards, not a year, ago. Maybe the civil servants and others with and that all its other members—I now see from the list responsibility for all this will ensure that no further that they did not include the hon. Member for discs will be lost in the future. I hope that we will have Monmouth, although there were other Conservatives— assurances about how that will be done. voted for them. The overall conclusions in chapter 6 of In conclusion, although the Home Secretary made a the report are clear. Even then the Committee said, in terrific case against identity cards—she is always very paragraph 280: good at putting the case—the Opposition will not vote “However, the introduction of identity cards carries clear risks, against the Bill. Speeches from people such as me both for individuals and for the successful implementation of the should be relatively brief; that is why I will not take up scheme. We are concerned by the lack of clarity and definition on my full allocation of time. key elements of the scheme and its future operation and by the lack of openness in the procurement process. The lack of clarity Pete Wishart: Does the right hon. Gentleman have and openness increases the risks of the project substantially. This is not justified and must be addressed if the scheme is to enjoy any idea as to the position of the Labour party now on public confidence and to work and achieve its aims in practice.” ID cards? We understand that Labour will not vote against the Bill. Will ID cards be part of the programme Although I do not have to defend the decision of a of the Labour Opposition? Committee that I was not chairing at the time, it is worth noting that even at that stage the Committee Keith Vaz: I look forward to finding out when my registered concern about some aspects of the scheme. hon. Friend the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch In the Committee’s report on the surveillance society, replies to the debate. Until the election, we were very published in May 2008—when the hon. Member for much in favour of ID cards. When she replies, she will Monmouth was a member and an important participant tell us. I am trying not to second-guess my hon. Friend, in the Committee’s deliberations—we again raised concerns who is pretty good at her job. I will let her speak for about data and data loss. We have heard an unequivocal herself and tell the House what she thinks the official statement from the Home Secretary that every bit of Opposition’s position is. data will be destroyed at a suitable time, when Parliament I hope that we will tread carefully in the next few has its view and the Bill becomes law. I am concerned as weeks and that we will take forward the suggestions that to what happens to the data between now and then. have been made. I know that it is in the nature of new Although I do not seek a ticket to the ceremony for the Governments to feel that they should do things very destruction of the data that have been gathered so far, I quickly and urgently and it is obviously up to the am sure someone in the Home Office press department Government what legislation they put before the House. will be thinking up something suitable. Simply cutting But I hope that they will take advice from former up an identity card will not be good enough for the Ministers who have been involved in these issues and coalition. After the impressive press conferences given will read carefully the reports of the Select Committee by the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister in the last Parliament. that we have seen so far, we expect something more for the destruction of the data. I just hope they will be kept 5.8 pm safe until then. Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Mr. Deputy In our report on the surveillance society in May 2008, Speaker, I join in the warm welcome you have received we pointed out our concern about the huge amount of this afternoon. It is hard to believe that 25 years have personal data that were being retained. The former passed since we first fought socialism in south Wales. Minister with responsibility for identity, my hon. Friend My congratulations to you. the Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, was I thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for calling me in a very good when she gave evidence before the Select debate that is close to my heart, one that has been a long Committee and was clear that she was absolutely satisfied time in coming. I have been passionately opposed to that the data were safe. But we conducted our review at identity cards and to the national identity register for a a time when, as the Home Secretary said, a lot of discs number of years. However well intentioned a Government were going missing. We were very concerned, although may be towards safeguarding our identities, data and we of course accepted my hon. Friend’s assurances; one personal information, the road to hell is paved with always accepts the assurances of a diligent Minister good intentions. The 2006 Act did not reach its logical when he or she appears before the Select Committee, conclusion and was not implemented to its full potential especially someone as erudite as my hon. Friend. Our but it set out an alarming framework that would have concern remains that there are a lot of data still being led to the sort of society in which I do not think many held and this matter needs to be addressed. of us would want to live. 407 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 408

[Mr Robert Buckland] with and covered the lacuna or loophole that would have opened up with the abolition of the relevant parts The shadow Home Secretary taught me much today of the 1981 Act. That is all well and good, but unfortunately about how to defend the indefensible. The best form of a mistake was made, because the commencement defence is attack. I am a new student of the politics of order that brought the new provisions into force was the Chamber and I am grateful to him for teaching me not passed until 7 June 2006. More than two months that lesson. However impressive his presentation was, it went by during which no criminal offence of having a could not get away from the sad fact for him and the false identification document existed in England and Opposition that the policies that they implemented and Wales. Clever lawyers—better lawyers than me, perhaps— the Act represented by them was flawed, unwelcome brought that matter to the attention of certain court and an infringement of the natural rights that we as proceedings, and I know of at least one set of proceedings citizens should expect to have. It represented a dangerous that came to an undignified halt because of that alarming reversal of the burden of proof between the individual loophole. and the state. I said low farce, but the situation was more serious No longer were the Government there at the behest than that, because it meant that, potentially, people of all of us, governing with our consent. The logical went undealt with by the criminal justice system for the conclusion of the Act was that ultimately we would serious offences—let us not forget—of possessing false have to prove our own existence. Why do I say that? identification documents, including passports, for which Because in the Act was the presumption of accuracy—the custodial offences would normally and quite properly presumption that all the information and registrable follow. I am glad to see that no such danger arises from facts that could have been entered on that register were the Bill before us, because the provisions in section 25 of accurate. If it recorded the fact that I was Mrs. Robert the 2006 Act, on the criminal offences surrounding the Buckland, I would have had to prove that I was not. possession of false documents, have been retained, and What an absurd, almost Kafkaesque situation that would the transitional provisions are carefully worded to ensure have been. I can assure the House that I am Mr. Robert that no such loophole ever opens again. The 2006 Act Buckland, and it would be ridiculous to have to prove that. was yet another sad example of legislation passed without due consideration for those who have to operate it. A Like the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) number of people who work in our criminal justice in his excellent speech, I pay tribute to the campaigners system had their hearts in their mouths when they were of NO2ID. They worked assiduously, with great enthusiasm considering prosecutions brought in that two-month— and conviction. I pay tribute to all that my local group nine-week, to be accurate—period. in Swindon, a non-party political group of concerned individuals, did. They organised petitions, campaigned The arguments that were deployed in favour of the on the streets and sought to persuade legislators in this identity card scheme shifted like the sands of time. We place and more widely of the error of that policy. They started with an argument about benefit fraud. From my succeeded in moving public opinion considerably on experience of dealing with benefit fraud over a number from where it was only five years ago. It is a significant of years, it is axiomatic that most of it occurs not achievement, which was recognised by the right hon. because of false identification documents, but because Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough of wrongful declarations about living status. That argument (Mr Blunkett), the former Home Secretary, in a thought- went by the wayside. We heard an argument based on provoking and intelligent contribution, as we would immigration, which also went by the wayside; and then expect from him. the argument became a credit-card argument about convenience—a one-stop-shop offering people access to The issue gives rise to strong emotions and passions. services. None of those weak arguments stacks up when In an intervention, I suggested earlier to the shadow we balance them out with fundamental freedoms and Home Secretary that the national identity register was liberties, and that is why I am delighted that this unprecedented. We will have to agree to differ on that. Government’s first act is to bring forward a Bill to It is, in my view, entirely unprecedented because of the repeal the 2006 Act. sheer number of registrable facts that would potentially have had to be entered by the individual. No other The 2006 Act represented government at its worst: country in the world had attempted that, and the overweening, over-ambitious, arrogant and out of touch. Government, in their gradual withdrawal from the rather We now have a chance to redress that balance. I look grandiose suggestions at the beginning of the life of the forward to the death rites being pronounced upon the 2006 Act, seemed to recognise that there was an inevitability 2006 Act, and I will play my part, however small, in about the danger of trying to create a super-database—one making sure that that is done. database trying to deal with all that information. 5.18 pm Reality dawned a little too late on the previous Government and their attitude to data retention. It is Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab): not just a matter of Kafka or George Orwell. There was Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and congratulations an element of low farce in the implementation of the on being elevated to your post. I also congratulate the 2006 Act. The Act received Royal Assent on 30 March hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) on his 2006 and immediately repealed the parts of the Forgery maiden speech—[Interruption.] I apologise. I am not and Counterfeiting Act 1981 that made it a criminal sure what the parliamentary term is for a second speech, offence for a person to have a false passport or immigration but I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his almost- document in their control. Sections 25 and 26 of the maiden speech. I should have known by how assured he 2006 Act made it a criminal offence for a person to was that, in fact, it was not his first speech. have a false identification document in their custody or I am here to contribute to this debate because I control. In other words, the successor provision dealt believe in identity cards and think it quite wrong to 409 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 410 back away from something for which I have campaigned 5.23 pm on behalf of my constituents for the past 10 years. I predict that, whether the current Government or a David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): May I, too, future Government are in place, we will be back here Mr Deputy Speaker, offer my warmest words of within five years, because of the way the world is congratulation to you, Sir, on your elevation? I have developing: it is becoming a smaller place, ID fraud is been well aware of the dignity and gravitas that the increasing exponentially, and in the first quarter of this Deputy Speaker can bring to important occasions ever year we saw a 20% increase in ID fraud cases and since he acted as my best man about 10 years ago—but prosecutions. As a result, our constituents will be demanding that is another story. a new way of securing, and being able to prove, their I also offer my warmest words of congratulation to identity. We can call that system ID cards, or anything the Home Secretary and to the other Home Office we like—but we will be back here arguing the case, Ministers. It is fitting that a Government who promised because the world will not stand still while we procrastinate to make law and order a top priority have today introduced or talk about freedom in the terms that we have heard a Bill that is about both law and order, and supporting today. and protecting human rights—real human rights, that is, not the ones that Labour Members sometimes talk Another reason why we will be back here is that our about. I have taken a great interest in that matter partners in the EU and internationally will demand that through my membership of the Home Affairs Committee we come back. They will not accept our scrapping the and in my work as a special constable with the British second generation of biometric passports, because they transport police. will require ever greater and ever more solid proof that we can substantiate our identities in our passport system. I have heard all sorts of claims about the benefits of We can make as many stands at the beginning of a ID cards, and we have heard some of them today. We Parliament as we like, but these practical problems will have heard about how they would defeat terrorism, arise. prevent people from claiming access to benefits, solve criminality and all sorts of other things. The hon. I support ID cards because my understanding of the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) words “freedom” and “liberty” is very different from came out with a new one when she talked about NHS that of many Members of this House. My understanding tourism. I tried to bring that issue to the attention of comes from a constituency where people work hard for Health Ministers in the previous Government on several very little and are frightened of crime and antisocial occasions and was assured that there was no problem at behaviour. They fear crime more than they are likely to all, so at least we are getting somewhere if the Opposition be victims of it. For them, freedom lies in community now accept that there is a problem. The hon. Lady also and in the ability of the police, the Government and the talked about illegal immigration, but perhaps she did state to protect them as individuals. That is why, in all not hear the Home Secretary’s speech, which made it the consultation I have done in my constituency—and I absolutely clear that people coming into this country have done much over the years—they overwhelmingly will still require a form of identity document—not the support ID cards. ID card, but another form of identification. That issue therefore does not even begin to arise. It is, in my view, wrong to talk about wanting to tighten up the immigration system so that we know who There was a gaping hole in the argument that the is in this country unless we have an ID system. Nobody previous Government advanced, which was that the has been able to explain to me how we will be able to tell cards were always going to be voluntary. That, of course, who is here without such a system. Nobody has been meant that they would have been ineffective, because able to explain to me how we will get rid of NHS the people who fiddle their benefits and break the law tourism without some way for people to demonstrate would not have applied for them. Everyone could see their right to access those services. At the moment, the that glaring hole in the argument. There would have NHS is ill equipped to be able to carry out the function been some argument for having ID cards—although I of understanding and pursuing who is entitled to NHS would not have supported it—if they had been compulsory, treatment, because of the ability to create fraudulent but that was not suggested, or at least it was not talked documents. As somebody who spends hours every week about openly. on immigration casework, I still cannot tell what is, or is My personal view is that if ID cards had been introduced not, a fraudulent document. in a voluntary form and the programme had continued, For those practical reasons, I think that we will see somewhere along the line it would have become compulsory an inching towards ID cards. I hope so, on behalf of to have them. Otherwise, there really would not have my constituents, who have, in all the work that I have been much point in them. There have been times when, done with them, overwhelmingly supported their working as a police officer, it has been hard to ascertain introduction. I understand the position of those on my someone’s identity. Had they had an ID card and been Front Bench—accepting that the parties who won the compelled to carry it at all times, that would have been election clearly made a manifesto commitment to remove quite useful, but the previous Government were not ID cards. However, I believe that people in Mitcham willing to say whether it would be compulsory to have and Morden will be disappointed that we have rowed one, and if so, whether it would be compulsory to carry back from this, just as we appear to want to put more one at all times and on all occasions. controls on CCTV and a DNA database. People want I could have foreseen the cards being rolled out on a to feel secure and protected. They see that their environment voluntary basis at first, and then, when the take-up had and their world is changing. Simply standing still and reached about 60% or 70%, the Government making not bringing in measures to protect them is not the them compulsory. They would then have had the problem answer. of whether to enforce the law strictly and ensure that 411 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 412

[David T. C. Davies] central database that hoards vast amounts of personal data on every citizen and that is open to the sprawling people carried them all the time. I suspect that there arms of Government, who would be able to widen would have been all sorts of civil disobedience, with access still further by order, not primary legislation. In protestors deliberately going out of their way not to addition, the database is run by the state sector, which carry ID cards and the police not being terribly enthusiastic has an appalling record on safeguarding our personal about prosecuting a lot of otherwise law-abiding students data. Despite all the spin from the previous Government, for a minor infringement of the law. Prolific criminals they planned eventually to have a compulsory ID card would not have carried the cards, and we would have regime: they would not rule out making it impossible to spent thousands of pounds dragging them before the renew or apply for a passport without one. courts and fining them 75 quid or so, which they would My second reason for supporting the Bill is that ID never have paid. Then somebody in government would cards simply cannot, will not and could never do what it have said, “Hold on a minute, this is outrageous. The says on the tin. They were proposed in the aftermath of Daily Mail journalists are ringing me up all the time 9/11, initially as a preventive counter-terrorism measure— saying that we’ve got this law and nobody’s obeying it, not any old kind of counter-terrorism measure—yet we so we’ll have a target. We’ll tell the police to go out and know that ID card regimes in Germany, Spain and prosecute a lot of people.” Then, a lot of pensioners Turkey did not and could not stop the 9/11 bombers and otherwise law-abiding people who had unfortunately who were based in Hamburg, the Istanbul bombers in forgotten their cards one morning would have been 2003, or the Madrid bombers in 2004. Next, it was said stopped and fined large sums of money. The whole that ID cards would stop benefit fraud, yet as we heard thing would have been chaos, because this country is earlier from the Home Secretary—persuasively—most just not ready for it. I am glad that we have got rid of it. benefit fraud involves lying about personal circumstances, It was something of an anomaly that although the not identity. It was then claimed that ID cards would Labour party talked about human rights rather a lot, help to tackle illegal immigration, which is an equally they gave us a so-called Human Rights Act that in my spurious reason—it was scarcely credible given that opinion was nothing more than a spurious means for all under previous plans, foreign nationals would not need sorts of people involved in terrorism and on the fringes an ID card for the first three months of any stay. of criminality to sue the Government for large sums Last year the Government changed tack altogether when their “human rights”, as they put it, were not and tried to sell ID cards as a way to help young people respected. At the same time, all sorts of law-abiding to access services. A cost of £30, with a potential fine of people were having their liberties infringed in all sorts £1,000 if they move home or marry and forget to tell of ways, one of which was the introduction of ID cards. Big Brother, is the last thing the average young Briton I say to Members such as the hon. Member for Perth needs today, which helps to explain the very low take-up. and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who was so passionate However, in retrospect the most extraordinary thing is about the matter, that we on the right of politics have the long journey that ID cards have travelled from always believed in liberty, and we do not separate social security panacea to friendly service provider. This is a liberty from economic liberty. I do not believe that we veritable chameleon of a project that seeks to hide its can have a truly libertarian Government when half our real nature with every change in presentation. gross domestic product is being spent by the state. I My third reason for supporting the Bill is cost, and look forward to my Front-Bench colleagues introducing we have heard plenty in the debate about the billions of further Bills that will reduce state interference in our pounds it would cost to maintain and run the scheme. lives socially and economically. As we have a great big Although the future cost of ID cards was always much happy family now, with people whose views are as higher than the previous Government could ever bring diverse as mine and those of the hon. Member for themselves to admit, there is a further point to make: Cambridge (Dr Huppert), I say to Opposition Members— the flawed design and inherent vulnerability of the even the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), database to fraud, as attested by expert after expert, with whom I have served on the Home Affairs Committee represent a massive contingent liability that this Government for several years—that they should come and join the and the taxpayer should relinquish at the very first true libertarians on our side of the House, and we will opportunity. continue to cut red tape, look for ways of reducing costs and support real human rights and, most importantly, In sum, ID cards are intrusive, ineffective and ludicrously liberty for all British people. expensive. This is Labour’s great white elephant of a project that has been left lumbering around Whitehall, and Britain can well do without it. 5.29 pm

Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): Thank 5.34 pm you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and may I take this opportunity to welcome you to your elevated status in Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): May I, too, congratulate the Chair? I commend hon. Members on both sides of you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on your recent elevation the House for their maiden speeches, and welcome the and successful election? May I also congratulate the Home Secretary and other Home Office Ministers to hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), my hon. the Dispatch Box. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) I wholeheartedly support the Bill for three reasons, and all other hon. Members who have made maiden the first of which is basic principle: I believe in a speeches this day? Having done it so recently myself, I country in which the state is accountable to the citizen, well recall how nerve-racking it is. not the other way round. ID cards would reverse that I shall not detain the House for long, but I wish to relationship through the national identity register, a make a couple of points, the first of which is the 413 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 414 concern of the people of Dover and Deal about ID 5.38 pm cards. Surprisingly, during the election campaign, this Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I issue was often raised on doorsteps in my constituency. add my heartfelt congratulations to those expressed by People said, “Look, the thing with ID cards is they are a others on your elevation to the Chair, Madam Deputy bit of a continental thing. Not so long ago—65 or 70 Speaker. I also add my congratulations to all those years ago—we were opposing people who wanted to whom I have heard make their maiden speeches today. I come to Britain and impose that kind of regime on us, well remember how awful mine was. By contrast, theirs and we are not very keen on that.” We believe in shame me. Fortunately, the height of these Benches freedom, democracy and liberty; and we care strongly prevents the world from seeing that one’s knees are about that. trembling, and mine certainly were—my mouth was dry We also feel that the ID cards were very expensive. and I have never dared read the speech again. I hope Would it not have been a better use of Government that the section of the Common’s files are burnt down. I resources to have improved and strengthened border can express only my admiration for the maiden speeches. control in this country? People in Dover are very clued Certain things said had a theme that related to the Bill up on these issues. Many of them work for the UK that we are debating today, as well as to the purpose of Border Agency and often say, “The thing is, studies by maiden speeches. the London School of Economics show there are about I am proud to be in this House with a large number of 863,000 or so people in this country unlawfully. They do new Members who were elected to represent distinctive not seem to have ID cards.” They say, “There’s not constituencies. They will judge the national interest on much point in having ID cards if they’re voluntary, and behalf of those they represent. That is no easy task, if they’re compulsory it would simply be unacceptable. unless they always follow the guidance of the Whips. In It would be better to secure our national border security.” fact, it turns upon Members sometimes, because the I note that the previous Government were reducing making of law and the holding of Governments to our border security at Dover. Immigration officers were account is what we are involved in. The judgment being fired, and the idea was to replace them with less involved in creating criminal law, which is behind the experienced officers. Many people in the local UKBA Bill before us, is a very solemn responsibility. office came to me expressing serious concern, and I I have always maintained that the function of this hope the current Government will review that situation House and the history of this nation is the long march and perhaps consider better ways forward. The previous of everyman to safeguard liberty. It was not easily won, Government did other things that people in Dover were but it was accomplished, as is seen in the changing concerned might weaken our border security. That is nature of this House from first being merely the King’s important. It is not just about illegal visitors, but about House and then an oligarch’s House in the 18th century human trafficking, drug running, and guns and weapons to the early stages of the 1832 Reform Bill—even if the coming through our borders. It is about preventing Deputy Prime Minister is not as familiar with his history terrorists from getting into the country. It is an issue not as he might have been—and then to the great achievement just about illegal visitors, but about national security. of Disraeli’s Reform Bill of 1867, from which we became I listened with great interest to the shadow Home a free people. John Bright, whose statue stands outside Secretary when he said that the ID cards scheme was this Chamber, on his annual visit to Birmingham all voluntary, that 15,000 people have applied for one, and those years ago asked why Englishmen should be slaves that it would be unfair on those people because they in their own country. That is what led to the 1867 Bill. were volunteers. I have had an e-mail from a constituent, The majority of people in England did not have the Naomi, who works for the UK Border Agency. She vote at that time—an Englishman in Canada had it, as wrote to me saying: did an Englishman in the United States, South Africa “I am a very disgruntled immigration officer from the Dover and Australia—but they had it after 1867. That is the area…As a staff member of the Home Office, I was actively heritage for new Members, and I maintain that the encouraged to apply for my ID card, which I duly did...Had I not main reason we are here is to defend that liberty. worked for Home Office (Immigration) and been based mainly in juxtaposed controls, I would not have bothered with it. I was told Sat on the Front Bench is the Minister for Immigration, that the Home Office would not contribute to us getting our my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian cards, but they wanted us to get them.” Green), who saw what the power of a misdirected state We have heard from the shadow Home Secretary that could do when an assault was made on the integrity of this was a voluntary scheme, but it seems to me that this House. When measures are brought before this some public sector workers might have been less volunteers House by the Executive, supposedly to protect our and more volunteered. It would have been wrong to liberty, we should be mindful. That is where the great impose a flagship Government scheme on public sector difficulty comes—the clash of loyalties between “the workers and to have volunteered them for that kind of urgency of now”, to quote an American President, and thing. It would be wrong in principle for that to have the urgency of the issues that sometimes confront us. happened. During her winding-up speech, I hope that We make much of playing across the House and there the shadow Minister will explain whether it was truly a has, of course, been an aggrandisement of the state in voluntary scheme, as regards people in the UKBA and, some of the pettiest of ways. In the face of an emergency, no doubt, other public sector organisations, or whether rushed through—in less than half an hour, I believe—was they were volunteered. It would be wrong, for a bit of the infamous section 2 of the Official Secrets Act 1911. spin and public relations, to have volunteered people for That happened because of the threat of war at the time. something that they did not want, because they already That legislation was done away with by Douglas Hurd had a passport, driving licence and all the other required and the then Conservative Government in 1989, but identification that make ID cards completely useless similar provisions were re-formed in the new Bill, saying and unnecessary. that anyone, including the Crown—even the gardeners 415 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 416

[Mr Richard Shepherd] information on central databanks like that of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, which in the royal parks—who released any information had we cannot get at. committed an offence. That was it. It created a great I can only think of a young man who had some dampening rug over British society. It was as if knowing difficulties, and the attempt to extradite him to the the number of teaspoons in the Ministry of Defence United States. What was his offence? He had accessed would somehow reveal to enemy forces our readiness the national security computers at the Pentagon. That is for war, as the numbers employed by the Ministry could now serious in our world—very serious—but if one be guessed. That is an example of the sort of nonsense individual living in London, or wherever, can access that went on, showing how difficult it was to do away that information, who cannot access a national databank? with secrecy. That is what this is about. The very first principle of This is where the identity cards issue comes in. We what I call civil liberties but what is now called human have looked at how it came about. It was in a sense a rights—secondary, tertiary and so forth—is the autonomy continuation of what had happened in the first world of the citizen, which is what that impinged on. war through a national registration system. It ceased No one doubts that the action was mandatory, and immediately at the end of the first world war, but in the reasons given changed frequently. Whatever new 1945 it did not cease. It suited the socialist Government emergency arose, this was the answer to it. Michael at the time, who believed that this would somehow Howard presented a Bill to deal with benefit fraud, and enable them to plan better. That was what was really Peter Lilley—is he in the House of Lords, or is he still behind it. That was when we saw the “reason creep” here?—did for it in the Cabinet. That is why the Conservative that we now see in the Identity Cards Act 2006 that we sense of liberty is something to be proud of. Front are about to abolish. It crept and crept, and then a Benchers panic, and Back Benchers are the brake on that. perverse citizen—glory be to God for dappled things!— The Labour party failed abysmally. I give credit to challenged a policeman. Of course he was rushed to the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick)—it court, and of course he was found guilty. He appealed, is true that he opposed these measures throughout—but but the Lord Chief Justice is also tied by laws, the laws do not doubt that Conservatives also opposed them that we make, and the man was guilty. It was a prima throughout. We watched the dancing princes of new facie case: he had not been prepared to show his identity Labour as they asserted that the very life of the nation card. But the uproar in public opinion created huge was threatened, but we are still here. The test of the life agitation, and the incoming Churchill Government did of the nation being threatened is part of the Human away with the law. So our history is important when it Rights Act, and they trampled all over that. It is not the comes to these matters. Human Rights Act that matters. What matters is what I saw examples in the 1980s. I must speak very we, a sovereign Parliament, hold to be appropriate. cautiously, however, because we have security anxieties I see the hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) in this country—there is the Northern Ireland situation, sitting there. He had the most distinguished of predecessors, for instance—but we have done terrible things in terms who is missed because he forensically and quietly argued of that central principle of the liberty of the individual. the case for liberty. So did my friend from Grantham, We all know about 42 days and 96 days, and the outer Douglas Hogg. That case was argued across the House. reaches of arresting people without their knowing the We had right on our side. The conversion of my party to offence with which they are charged. It took the judges remembering and asserting those rights, freedoms and of our land a long time to find that that was improper, liberties is expressed in the first legislation to be brought although the requirement for every citizen to know who to the House in this Parliament. I commend the accuses them and with what they are charged is so basic Government for that. It is testament to something important to our common law. We are, in a sense, the custodians of that this House is on the move again. that common law and of that noble tradition. I am thinking not just of England but of Scotland, and the declaration of Arbroath. These islands are the centre of 5.51 pm that liberty. Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con): I add my The original Bill—that monstrous Bill—was introduced congratulations to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, on the because we were in a panic, or rather the Government distinction and honour that the House has seen fit to were in a panic. We have a press that heightens and give you. It is a signal honour and I am absolutely dramatises every incident, and we have almost lost our convinced that you will perform your functions accordingly. character in the way in which we respond. This city was I thank those who have bombed—indeed, this Chamber was bombed and made their maiden speeches today, and must say how destroyed—in the war, and I believe that 20,000 people impressed I have been with them. Having given mine were killed in one bombing incident. only a couple of days ago, I all too well recall the nerves I come from the west midlands, which includes Coventry in doing so. I also congratulate the Home Secretary on and Birmingham, and other Members represent other introducing the Bill, on the honour of her appointment industrial centres around this island that were bombed. and on the appointment of the Home Office team. This Hundreds died—hundreds. So serious was it that the Bill is signally important because it will repair some of national Administration did not want the figures to be the damage that the Labour party has done to our civil known in case they resulted in widespread panic. Those liberties. On the liberty of the individual, Winston are the difficulties involved in the judgments that Churchill once said that those who ignore history—those Governments must make, but I am no sympathiser with with short memories—will be condemned to repeat it. Governments who introduce measures for putting Thanks to 13 years of Labour Government, since 1997 no fewer than 404 acts or forms of behaviour have 417 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 418 become unlawful. Human rights have been damaged by of, “If you’ve got nothing to hide, there’s no reason why 13 years of Labour. It may have introduced an Act you shouldn’t have one”? That alone is a reason why calling itself the Human Rights Act, but it has damaged their measure must be killed off tonight. human rights in this country. People do not feel as secure or as safe as they have done historically. That is Michael Ellis: Yes, and I am grateful to my hon. the responsibility of Labour following its governance of Friend for that intervention. We heard from another of this country. my hon. Friends about how a constituent of his working in the port at Dover was already feeling under pressure When identity cards were introduced in 1918, they to acquire one of these identification cards. There is were a knee-jerk reaction; the country was deeply concerned every reason to believe that that attitude would have with the war situation. The Government recognised become extremely damaging in the longer term. Criminals, that they needed to be removed as soon as the situation however, would have ignored all of this. improved. Identity cards were reintroduced in 1939. The mistake was that, after the war ended in 1945, The card’s security measures are not impregnable identity cards were allowed to continue apace. That either. In recent years, I have prosecuted a number of resulted—the case has already been alluded to in the criminal cases in the Crown courts in England involving Chamber—in a famous episode where a man in the the fraudulent misuse of identification documents, usually street, when challenged by a police constable, refused to passports. Passports are now quite sophisticated documents, show his identification papers. He is recorded as having but even all the sophisticated apparatus designed to said to the constable, “No, I am a liberal.” What he was protect their integrity can be circumvented without indicating was the illiberality of having to show, on the particularly highly specialist care. That is because it is demand of a constable in uniform, identification papers often the naked eye that is used to determine the veracity just on mere suspicion. I am given to understand that or otherwise of a document. Many court cases have the grandson of that man is now one of my hon. resulted from such situations. Friends newly elected to this Chamber, and that is a There is no substance to the Labour argument. We signal distinction. That incident led to a case that has have now a kind of Big Brother watch in this country, been alluded to, which went before the High Court of and Labour’s attitude that one is guilty until proven Justice, where the matter was explored in some detail innocent has paid into the lack of security and lack of and the public were, of course, outraged. That led, integrity in our system. I pointed out to the shadow under Churchill’s Government, to the abolition of Home Secretary, when he was in his place, that in a identification cards, and rightly so. press release on 27 May, the head of the TUC backed Criminals today—and, I am sure, historically as well—do the coalition Government’s proposals. Brendan Barber not apply for identification cards if they are voluntary. said that The previous Labour Government said they wanted a “identity cards were a costly folly…and would have been an voluntary scheme of identification cards, but the reality unwelcome intrusion into people’s personal liberty…Scrapping identity cards is an important sign that the new Government is is that a voluntary scheme would simply mean that the committed to safeguarding civil liberties.” criminals and those disinclined to follow the law would When the shadow Home Secretary first became Home not apply for them, yet those inclined to follow the law Secretary, he announced that ID cards would no longer would feel increasingly obliged to carry them. It is what be compulsory, which gave the distinct impression that is referred to in the military as mission creep, and he had not been much in favour of them in the first elsewhere as function creep. I understand that one of place. the methods by which the previous Labour Government were going to introduce those identification cards was I am delighted to support this Bill as the first measure via airports and airlines. They were going to have that Her Majesty’s Government are bringing before the airside workers carrying these cards first. Trade unions House. The compulsion by stealth was a feature that and airlines expressed concern that this voluntary scheme would have been completely deleterious to the interests would become impractical and that it would eventually of the people of this country. The cost was another be required to be compulsory. factor altogether. Some £800 million will be saved over the next 10 years by abandoning this absurd and costly As we have seen, that has happened in many historical scheme. It is interesting to note that Labour Members cases, such as with the discontinuance of the use of are not taking a stance against the Bill. Perhaps that is cheques. They have not been banned, but it is becoming because they understand that the cost-benefit analysis increasingly difficult to use a cheque, and there is pressure has not worked out. There is no substance to the to discontinue them entirely. On Sunday trading, too, it Labour argument, and there never was. I am delighted has been said that, although Parliament as then assembled to support this measure. was careful not to make the new law compulsory, the safeguards have been eroded, so that those employees who would otherwise have chosen not to work on a 6.2 pm Sunday have felt increasingly obliged to do so, whether Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con): I echo the or not that is a legal requirement. There is every indication comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for that if identification cards had come into existence Northampton North (Michael Ellis) in congratulating there would have been exactly that kind of mission all those hon. Members who have made their maiden creep, or function creep. Some people might have found speeches today. Like him, I remember making mine it increasingly difficult to go into work, especially in about a week ago. At the time, I was unsure whether I certain lines of work, if they did not have a card. was more nervous about making the speech or about having to wait so many hours to make it. So I offer my Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): Does my hon. congratulations—and, in some ways, my Friend agree that, in essence, he is explaining that the commiserations—to all those who have had to sit here last Government were working on the shameful premise today waiting for their time to come. 419 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 420

[Brandon Lewis] among my residents of Great Yarmouth who wants the scheme, although I appreciate that some Opposition I also want to echo the comment made by my hon. Members might have a different view. It is an expensive Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) folly, and I cannot see why we should get involved in when he congratulated the team who put together the something that we simply cannot afford. NO2ID campaign. They did superb, ground-breaking From the perspective of what is good for my residents work at an early stage in making use of some of the and what they want, it is clear that they do not want social media sites. As a user of Twitter and Facebook identity cards. Given also that we cannot afford them, myself, I think that they did a super job in bringing why would we consider them? Is it a question of civil people together and creating a cohesive campaign. It is liberties? Earlier, one hon. Member mentioned that ironic that some of those same social networking groups other countries have identity cards, but is their use have had questions raised about data protection and the forced on those countries’ populations? What would be data that they hold on people. My core problem with the benefit for us? identity cards has always related to data protection. When the legislation was first introduced in March 2006, I do not know about other Members of this House, I had an instinctive feeling that it was the wrong thing but I have a passport. I also have utility bills and a to do, as I am a believer in small government. My hon. photocard driving licence. I have credit cards— Friend the Member for Northampton North mentioned unfortunately!—and lots of other proofs of identity. I function creep. That and the Big Brother state added to know so many people who also have lots of different the feeling that this was yet another system that the proofs that I started to wonder why I would want an previous Government were using to gain more knowledge identity card as well. What benefit would I get from and control over all of us. It is interesting that it moved having one? Again, I cannot think of any. to being a voluntary scheme, following the initial proposal Would having identity cards make us safer and protect to make it compulsory. I congratulate the Home Secretary us against crime and terrorism? Even the now shadow and the entire ministerial team on using one of our first Home Secretary and his predecessors—Charles Clarke Bills to get rid of this vile piece of legislation. among them, I think—have admitted that the identity I look at the matter quite simply. My decision to card scheme would not do much to prevent terrorism. speak today is based on my conversations over the past Indeed, the shadow Home Secretary himself said a few years with residents in my constituency of Great while ago that he regretted the emphasis that had been Yarmouth. I have spoken to tens of thousands of people, put on the card’s usefulness in that regard. and I was wracking my brains today as I worked through The reason for that, as was noted earlier this debate, the pros and cons of the argument. I wanted to play is that the card was supposed to be voluntary. Why devil’s advocate and produce a strong and positive case would a person considering committing any sort of for identity cards, yet I cannot remember any Great crime, such as fraud or an act of terrorism, go and get Yarmouth residents asking me when they could get an identity card voluntarily? That is beyond me but, as theirs. Not one person has told me that we should make a new Member, I am sure that Opposition Members will it compulsory, or that we should hurry up its introduction. enlighten me in the hours to come, but I cannot see the Residents of Great Yarmouth said many things during benefit. the election, but I struggle to remember anyone asking, Certainly, I cannot see that having an identity card “Will you please make sure that, if your party is successful would be the first thing on the mind of a person looking and forms a Government, you keep the identity card to commit a major fraud or act of terrorism. I do not legislation? I am very much looking forward to getting believe that such a person would think, “I can’t commit my card.” That is not a conversation that I recall, this crime because I have an identity card and the although I wait to be corrected by any resident who authorities might find out who I am.” At the same, we does recall it. have also heard that modern electronics such as those A very long-serving Member of this House who is no involved in computers, printing and so on are so advanced longer here gave me some advice earlier this year. I was that it would not be difficult for anyone who is criminally told that, if I was fortunate enough to be elected, I minded to find a way around the system, falsify the should ensure that I know why I am speaking on an documents and create a false identity card. That would issue in the Chamber, and why I am voting on it. I was give us another problem and a real issue to deal with, told to be aware of the positive impact that any proposal because a black market would thus be created whereby would have on the lives of my constituents and the people make fraudulent documents to sell to people country. I cannot think of a single thing about the who want to commit other crimes. Identity Cards Act 2006 that is beneficial, and so can Some of my local residents in Great Yarmouth have see no reason to support it. For that reason, I support concerns about antisocial behaviour. Our local police its abolition. are working hard to improve the situation and some of Given that my residents in Great Yarmouth do not their thinking outside the box has done a phenomenal want identity cards, what is the economic case for them? job. They have also cracked down on under-age drinking. The figures that I have seen show a set-up cost of We all want that to happen, and we have heard much around £450 million to bring the scheme in, and that talk of that across the House and in the press over the operating it over the next 10 years would cost something past few months. A substantial black market in creating like £4.1 billion. We heard at Prime Minister’s Question false identity cards would receive a hugely beneficial Time earlier today that the interest charge alone on our financial boost from under-age drinkers who want to national debt will cost us around £70 billion a year or obtain such cards in order to buy alcohol. That shows more, so it seems to me that we simply cannot afford that we could be walking a hugely dangerous tightrope such a hugely expensive scheme. I have not met anyone in future, and I have not yet got too far into dealing 421 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 422 with worries about a Government who have a database 6.14 pm that contains 50 pieces of information about everyone Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): As this is in the country. the second time I have had the honour to speak in Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab): Given that the hon. the Chamber this week, I am very grateful to you for Gentleman said that he has a passport—I presume that calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am particularly he also has a driving licence—what information that grateful to be able to speak in this debate to take part in would be kept on his ID card is he so worried about the rejecting the Identity Cards Act 2006 and the proposal state holding? for identity cards introduced by the previous Administration. Many Government Members have spoken Brandon Lewis: I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s on this issue and it is telling that the Opposition Benches question, because it gives me the opportunity to deal are entirely empty of people prepared to defend what with that matter. As I said, I do have a driving licence—a the previous Government had planned to introduce. photocard version—and a passport. That is one reason [Interruption.] I look forward to seeing which way the why I do not need another piece of identification to hon. Member for Dudley North (Ian Austin) votes in prove who I am. I say that despite the favourite independent the Lobby. organisation of all of us explaining to me recently over There are three solid reasons to support this Bill to the phone that it could not answer a question until it abolish the prospect of identity cards. Those reasons had confirmed who I was—it does that by a return call. tell us a lot about the Government formed in the past That happened two weeks ago, but I have not yet heard month and have given me great hope regarding their from that organisation—perhaps it will pick me up on strength and underlying motives for the years to come. the cameras tonight and realise who I am. The first reason, which has been touched on, is the cost My concern relates to the holding of that database. of the ID card scheme. The official estimate of £800 million Hon. Members should be frank about the fact that over was bad enough, but independent experts came up with the past few years a number of Government bodies and another estimate of £20 billion for the total cost of the other organisations have lost data and had data corrupted. scheme. Given the current state of extremely tight national The idea of that kind of data being held does worry finances, the idea of spending £800 million on such an people. My core point is that my residents have never unnecessary scheme is something that we should reject. asked or begged me for any of this and I do not think What is more, I clearly remember the right hon. that they particularly want to waste such an amount of Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) trying to argue, money on ID cards, leaving aside the fact that they when we proposed abolishing ID cards to save money, would then have to pay for the pleasure of having a card that that would not save money because the cost would at a time when they are under economic pressure. be borne entirely by those forced to take up the cards. There are other ways of helping people, particularly That says an awful lot about the attitude of anyone who youths, who might want to have an identity card to could say that, because whether the cost would have make things easier for them. The police force in Great been £800 million to the Exchequer or £30 to everyone Yarmouth has come up with a fantastic scheme, which I in the country, it would eventually have been borne by shall be inviting my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary the same people—the taxpayers. It was greatly to disregard or one of her Ministers to come to see some time this the taxpayer to put forward a scheme that clearly was year—I hope that one of them will visit. The police are not going to work, as several of my hon. Friends working on a voluntary scheme, which is sponsored by pointed out, with so little regard to its cost. a commercial organisation, to allow young people to The second reason why it is such good news that the have a local identity card that they can use in various scheme is being abolished is the risk involved. I clearly outlets and gain points, as happens with supermarket remember the then Chancellor of the Exchequer standing reward cards. Those young people are, thus, encouraged at the Dispatch Box about three and a half years ago to go to school and to improve their behaviour because and admitting to the whole country, with his hands they can gain points that give them access to do other shaking and his papers quivering, that two data discs things. That carrot is being used, as well as the stick. containing information and bank account details for That local scheme is not about holding identity details; every single child in the country had been lost. I also it simply allows those young people to have a reward remember the national outrage that followed. That card. Such an approach could play a large part in demonstrated—I hope that we do not have to demonstrate moving things forward. It is a small-scale local scheme, it again—the danger of keeping sensitive and private worked out by local people and our local police force, to information all on one huge database in this age when it deliver a positive local end product. It is not a great big is so easy to transfer information electronically. That national scheme of huge expense that creates more danger, and the contingent liability that comes with bureaucracy and involves another set of forms that holding that information is a great risk not only in an those who decide voluntarily to take it up have to fill in, extremely practical sense in that it can be lost—we all get back and go through, and all so that we all have know that data discs can be lost and get into the hands another card in our pocket. of national newspapers—but because holding it in one I simply do not see the benefit of the identity card. I place can be extremely risky. can see huge risks ahead of it in terms of the data, the The final and most exciting reason why this is the first black economy and encouraging crime, rather than Bill that the new coalition Government have introduced discouraging it. I cannot see how the card would be a is that it reveals the faith in human nature of the good investment of getting on for £4.5 billion-worth of Government who have put it forward. The fact that our money. Therefore, I am delighted that this Bill is some think that the way to solve crime and to regulate being introduced to abolish it and I will give the Bill my our society better is to have an enormous state database full support. and to force everybody to hold a card in their pocket is 423 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 424

[Matthew Hancock] investment in Birmingham. He spoke of the benefits of Labour investment, particularly in the decent homes extremely revealing of the view of human behaviour programme. He also highlighted the many problems held by those wanting to make such laws. We must that remain to be tackled in his constituency, especially understand that people are all individuals and are all unemployment and the lack of affordable family housing. different, and that society is best organised by the There is no doubt that in him we have a strong champion people in it coming together rather than by the people for Erdington in the Chamber. at the top telling them what to do. That is an extremely The hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) strong principle that we on the Government side hold spoke movingly about manufacturing in his constituency dear. That is demonstrated in the fact that the rejection and his desire to see it improve. Unbeknown to me, of the Identity Cards Act is the very first Bill being Gloucester is famous for making health and aerospace debated under this Government. On those bases alone, products, but particularly for making ice cream. We I should be in favour of a Bill to reject identity cards. look forward to hearing more from him. He has a The situation is best summed up by the now shadow strong commitment to his constituency—even the shirt Chancellor, who obviously understands the costs. I rest on his back was made by his constituents. my case on a statement he made before—for some reason—he changed his mind. He said: My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan “I don’t want my whole life to be reduced to a magnetic strip Elan Jones) is a fellow Co-operative Member of Parliament. on a plastic card.” She warmly acknowledged the work of Martyn Jones, I could not put it better myself. I commend the Bill to particularly his success in ensuring that money from the House. dormant bank accounts went to good causes. Her thoughtful and moving description of life in Clwyd now 6.20 pm and in the past will remain with me. We look forward to many eloquent speeches from her. Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Co-op): It is a privilege to serve under your chairmanship, The hon. Member for Finchley and Golders Green Madam Deputy Speaker. Many congratulations on your (Mike Freer) rightly paid tribute to Rudi Vis. On the elevation to that position. Labour Benches, we join the hon. Gentleman in Unlike me, Madam Deputy Speaker, you have not acknowledging Rudi’s contribution to the Chamber. We had the privilege of sitting through the entire debate. pass our condolences to his family. We have had the opportunity to hear from a number of The hon. Gentleman spoke of another predecessor in colleagues who made their maiden speeches. First, the the seat—Baroness Thatcher—about whom we may not hon. Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) told us share the same level of agreement. He then spoke about that it was not Gosport but God’s Port. She told us that identity cards. It was heartening that, despite the fact Portsmouth is close to Gosport, but as someone who that Members were making maiden speeches, several of grew up in Portsmouth and went back and forth on the them commented on identity cards. Gosport ferry on Saturday afternoons, when my mother We then heard an amusing speech from the hon. made sure she got us out of the house for recreation, I Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart). have fond memories of Gosport from a slightly different If I were being mean, I could talk about cheap oratory, perspective. but he talked about identity cards as being anti-civil The hon. Lady spoke in glowing terms of her liberties. Were he in his seat, I would ask him if he has a constituency and spoke up strongly for the future of passport and I will touch on that. He talked about Emu HMS Sultan, urging her Government to think carefully and Rod Hull. I was not sure whether we were hearing about the impact of their decision on her constituents. from Emu or Rod Hull, but we had a good time Like many speakers, she mentioned identity cards and I listening nevertheless. shall turn to that issue when I have congratulated other speakers on their comments. We heard from the hon. Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins), who was generous in his tribute to Ann The hon. Lady was followed by my right hon. Friend Cryer, his immediate predecessor in the seat, and he the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough rightly highlighted her work on tackling the abuse of (Mr Blunkett), who was not making his maiden speech. young women by men and on forced marriages. He also He was Home Secretary when the Identity Cards Bill talked about the many illustrious sons of Oakworth, his was first published and he eloquently explained some of home village. the original thinking behind identity cards. He highlighted the fact that the issues the identity card system was set We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for up to deal with will not go away.He particularly bemoaned Gateshead (Ian Mearns), who we thought at a number the passing of the second generation of biometric passports, of points was about to burst into song, as he quoted which I shall touch on later in my comments. from “Blaydon Races”and gave a tour of the international We then heard from the hon. Member for Birmingham, venues in his constituency. I have no doubt that as we go Yardley (John Hemming). I would say that his criticisms to many conferences over the years, we will remember applied equally to driving licences. On the basis of his that speech. comments, perhaps the Government’s next policy will The hon. Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec be to abolish them. Shelbrooke) is the first Conservative to represent the My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Erdington town of Rothwell, a constituency that apparently has (Jack Dromey) made his maiden speech, but with his had 10 boundary changes. Whether there is more to background and experience we can look forward to come from the Government and whether the seat will many good and knowledgeable speeches from him. He stay in anything like the same form are matters for a gave a spirited history of his constituency and of municipal future debate. 425 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 426

We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for been such a strong supporter of and advocate for ID Walsall North (Mr Winnick), who rightly highlighted cards over the years. She is right that there is a demand the muddle and inconsistency of Government policy on still, and there will be greater demand in the future for the issue. I will touch on some of the other points that the improved personal security that ID cards represent. he raised. Let me make it clear to the House that we have not The hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) abandoned the policy of using fingerprints or having a spoke in glowing terms about his constituency and paid proper database to back that up. The policy of our warm tribute to his predecessor, John Grogan. He wondered Government was clear and remains so. However, we whether his grandfather, a miner, would have been have to recognise the reality that we did not win the proud of his grandson becoming a Conservative MP. I general election—nor did the Conservatives, but with am sure he would, Madam Deputy Speaker, and we their friends the Liberal Democrats, they form the look forward to hearing more from the hon. Gentleman. Government. We recognise that and the will of the We then heard a very powerful speech from my hon. people. In opposition, although we will attack, we also Friend the Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero). She need to recognise when the Government have put forward spoke warmly about her predecessor Geoff Hoon, a a view and want to get that through. Sometimes we will former Defence Secretary and Chief Whip. She spoke not oppose just for the sake of it. I will return to some about literacy and the sporting tradition in her constituency of the issues later. and she was proud—quite rightly—to be the first woman We heard from the hon. Member for Monmouth to represent Ashfield. She spoke movingly of a real (David T. C. Davies) largely what we would expect to sense of community in her constituency and about the hear from him. He is giving lessons to many new legacy of the mining traditions. Members. The hon. Member for Esher and Walton We then heard from the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mr Raab) spoke about the state being accountable to (Dr Huppert), although this was not a maiden speech. the citizen. We all agree with that, though perhaps not It is heartening that a number of new Members are about the ways in which we would achieve it. The hon. already contributing fully to debate in this House. He Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) spoke about spoke quite a bit about the 1950s. It is worth saying trafficking, where I would counter that fingerprints that, in terms of identity cards, the 1950s were quite a make a difference. In that regard, we may be throwing long time ago. We are talking today about a very out the baby with the bathwater. The hon. Member for different programme that was proposed by the last Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) gave an eloquent Government and is being opposed by this Government. history lesson about civil liberties, as he sees them, and We had a number of history lessons on that but the ID cards over the years. We then heard from the hon. identity card system was rather different from now, as Members for Northampton North (Michael Ellis), for is—I would say to the hon. Gentleman—this place is Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis) and for West Suffolk from academia. Academic debate is all very well but (Matthew Hancock). government, in which he now plays a part, has to deal with practical realities. We wait to see how the Government It has been interesting to listen to a debate dominated will cope with those realities on this issue and others. by newer Members who spoke eloquently and with enthusiasm. However, it is easy to make a speech from My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East the Back Benches with energy and enthusiasm, but as (Keith Vaz) helpfully reminded us of previous parliamentary those on the Government Front Bench, the Home Secretary scrutiny of identity cards, a number of points from and her colleagues will learn—or, in many cases, do not which were taken on board by the last Government as need to learn—the challenges of being in government they developed the policy over time. are quite different. They have to examine the facts in We then heard from the hon. Member for South detail and consider the problems of national security Swindon (Mr Buckland), which took me back to one of that they must deal with. my first public meetings on the issue. He opposes ID cards on the basis that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I suggest that the Government would Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con): When the ID card do very little if it took that to its ultimate extreme. I was first launched last year, does the hon. Lady recall went to South Swindon in my early days as Minister that at the launch in the north-west, the Minister forgot responsible for identity cards and met NO2ID. After we her own ID card? If she could forget, what chance entered the room and found that, seemingly, there was would the rest of us lesser mortals have had in the brave nobody there to oppose ID cards, we looked out and new world of ID cards? realised that the three or four people outside were the demo. As a result of that meeting, the local newspaper—the Meg Hillier: That rather proves my point. The law as redoubtable Swindon Advertiser—stopped carrying quite it stood and still stands is that no one is required to so many letters from that organisation. Members have carry their national identity card. [HON.MEMBERS: “What praised NO2ID today; it was relatively small in number, is the point?”] The chorus of approval for that comment but it was effective, as my right hon. Friend the Member from a sedentary position suggests, perhaps, that the for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough acknowledged. Government may be proposing a compulsory scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden It is important to remember that as the law still stands, (Siobhain McDonagh) spoke movingly about the sort there was never a requirement to carry the card. It is of freedoms that her constituents expect, including the easy to make cheap debating points, but that was an freedom to live peacefully in their community. She felt important part of the scheme. Like previous Home that ID fraud was an important issue to be tackled, and Secretaries and the most recent Home Secretary, I did that it was something that her constituents wanted to not want to see a card demanded of people. That was see tackled. That was one of the reasons why she has never in the Act and would never be a requirement. 427 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 428

[Meg Hillier] I do not have time to deal with all the nonsense, to be frank, that came out in today’s debate, but there was Section 14 explicitly ruled out the possibility that some discussion about a huge Government Big Brother anyone would have to show a card to access any public database being built like no other. I am tempted to ask service. It was important that we won the trust of the how many hon. Members present have a British passport, public and let them buy into the scheme if they wished, and what on earth they think happens to the data that so that they could see for themselves the benefit. The they hand over when they receive one, because that British passport is not a compulsory document, yet information is held on a database. It has been held on a eight out of 10 British citizens choose to have one, and database ever since passports were introduced, and I it has an important resonance and role. recommend hon. Members visit the database records in There were three main reasons or broad themes for Peterborough, where they will see paper records from introducing identity cards. It is understandable that 1916, microfiche records and more up-to-date records. many Members will think that there were mixed messages. Of course, if one has a safe and secure passport, and As my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, one wants it to become a proper document that makes Brightside and Hillsborough said, that is a fair point. It British citizens first-class citizens in the world, one seemed at different times that there were different reasons. needs a back-up database; and we proposed putting In fact, if one goes back and reads the speeches made fingerprints on passports, so it was important to ensure on two attempts to give the Bill a Second Reading—a that the database was more secure. general election interrupted—by the former Member That is why we proposed three databases that could for Norwich, South, Charles Clarke, who was then not be downloaded or looked up. In time, with a reader Home Secretary, terrorism was not mooted as the main machine, as many new hon. Members may not be reason for identity cards, but because of the events of aware, one could have taken the card and—by checking 11 September, that question was often posed in the against the register and the database, with no information media. The debate was often hyped in that way. going to the person to whom one was proving one’s Protecting the public was one of the reasons for identity—just proved one’s identity. There would have introducing identity cards. It allowed people the option been no need for bits of paper going to a back room to of locking their identity firmly to their fingerprint and be photocopied and possibly stolen, and no need for thereby helped to reduce the risk of ID fraud for those bills in different names, which is a challenge for many who chose to take up the option, as I did and as my people. There would have been just one card, involving colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench did. just the individual and their fingerprint. That would have put the citizen in control of their data. That was Mr Blunkett: As I said earlier, my hon. Friend deserves our vision, and it is still the vision of this Opposition. great credit for her work on this matter. Congratulations, So, the database already exists. My question to the by the way, Madam Deputy Speaker. Minister, who is now responsible for passports, because From the end of 2001, we were constantly asked they have been thrown into the mix with immigration about terrorism and whether an identity card of some even though they used to have their own Minister, is description would help, and we constantly indicated what will happen to the passport database and to the that that was not the prime concern. However, MI5 passport? If we do not introduce fingerprints on to made it explicit and put on the record that more than passports, we risk British citizens becoming second-class one third of those people who were known to be associated citizens in the world. They will have to pay for visas as with international terrorism used false and multiple countries demand more security, and we also risk having identities. MI5 would have been helped in its struggle to a much less secure document. The Government use the protect us by having a system that was verifiable and curious phrase, authenticable in a way that the existing system is not. “halting second generation biometric passports”, Meg Hillier: I thank my right hon. Friend who, from which are those with fingerprints, so will the Minister his own, special perspective, proves my point exactly. clarify that? There was a second point, convenience, which was a There is Tory muddle on this issue, and I have some key contributor. Eight out of 10 people already have a further questions. Is the hon. Gentleman in favour of passport, but we were keen to improve its security, and fingerprints in general? [Interruption.] Clearly, many the little plastic card was an additional convenience hon. Members want to give me their fingerprints. Very factor and something that those who were keen to have nice. We have foreign national identity cards, and people one very much took up. They wanted an easy, convenient who come to this country provide their fingerprint for thing that one could slip in one’s wallet and, yes, forget. inclusion on that database, which was going to be part Perhaps some hon. Members have more organised lives of the same database. People applying for visas abroad than mine, but one would not normally carry around have their fingerprints taken before they arrive in the one’s passport. People indicated that they were keen on UK—an important security measure that I hope that the convenience of the plastic card. It was one thing the Minister, with his immigration hat on, agrees with. that made the card popular with those who chose to If the Government are in favour of fingerprints in those take it on. cases, then why not for British citizens too? Why are The third main issue is that the card was a travel British citizens being denied this right? document within Europe. Indeed, for £30, it was not The Government are also in a muddle on costs and only a travel document, but a passport-plus, because it savings. Cards would have been funded by fees. If someone allowed travel, plus that more secure form of ID to paid £30, they got a card; if they did not pay £30, they which I have referred. For the four out of five British did not. That seems a fair-minded transaction that did citizens who have passports, that is fine, but there was not involve lots of money from the general taxpayer. also an issue about those who do not. Yes, there were set-up costs, which would have been 429 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 430 recouped, but the £4.75 billion total cost was paid for not want the state keeping information on the basis that not out of taxation but out of fees over a 10-year in some far-off and speculative circumstance it may be period. No cards, no fees—and no money to spend on of benefit. The lack of public trust in the scheme was other things. reflected in the very low numbers coming forward to Perhaps the Prime Minister should be told this, because buy the cards. I suspect that that also reflects—the in September 2007, in an online question and answer shadow Home Secretary may reflect on this—the knowledge session with The Daily Telegraph, he said: that a new Government would drop the scheme. “A future Conservative Government will…Scrap the ID card scheme, saving £255.4 million in the first three years.” Meg Hillier rose— Where is that number now? It seems to have shrunk to £84 million. Worryingly for the Chancellor of the Damian Green: I am afraid that the hon. Lady did not Exchequer, the Prime Minister went on to say that they leave me enough time to give way to her, as she overran would use those savings to provide extra prison places, her time. so that is another Government policy gone. Let me start with what the shadow Home Secretary Let me quickly explain who will lose out through this. said. He gave a completely bravura performance. It was Current cardholders will lose out, and it is mean-spirited entertaining and funny, and it was particularly good of this Government not to compensate them. Sending from someone whose heart, I felt, was not really in it. I out two letters to cardholders will cost at least as much do not believe that he is a fully paid-up member of the as it would to give them a credit for a passport. Moreover, authoritarian tendency on the Labour Benches. The the convenience factor has gone. fact that his speech was so good disguised the central This Bill is a symbolic gesture, as the Home Secretary incoherence in it. He said that he wanted ID cards to be said. The Government have not had time to look at the voluntary, and his speech also contained a long, passionate detail and the consequences. It is ill thought out and passage about how they would be effective in the fight mean-spirited, and it has a worrying disregard for the against terrorism. He can either hold the view that we security of the passport. I really do hope that the need compulsory ID cards to fight terrorism, or he can Minister has some proper answers as he risks the safety hold the view that we need voluntary ID cards, but he of the British public. cannot hold both at once. He knows as well as I do that a voluntary card system would have no effect on terrorists, criminals or benefit fraudsters, who would not sign up 6.41 pm to a voluntary scheme. That was the central incoherence The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): It is a in his speech. delight, Madam Deputy Speaker, to see you in the May I correct one example that the right hon. Gentleman Chair, which I am sure you will adorn for years to come. gave? He said that France had a national identity database. For some of us, this debate is an exciting occasion. It does indeed have a national identity card scheme, but Those of us who have campaigned against the ID card the cards are issued, and the accompanying register scheme since the day it was introduced by the previous held, at local level. There is no single French identity Government regard it as not just a duty but a pleasure database, so he was wrong about that. to be able to lay it to rest. On a personal note, in the Like others, I pay tribute to the many good speeches 13 years that my party spent in opposition, I rebelled that we have heard. I say to my hon. Friend the Member only once against a three-line Whip, and that was to for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) that it was a vote against ID cards, so it is a particular joy to be at the privilege to hear his magnificent speech in favour of Government Dispatch Box to get rid of them. I advise freedom and Parliament’s essential role in defending it. Labour Members, particular new ones, that for Opposition I now move on to the many hon. Members on both Members occasionally to rebel against their Front Benchers sides of the House who made their maiden speeches. can be very rewarding. Let me also say to my own hon. My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Friends that for Government Back Benchers to do the Dinenage) gave a stirring defence of naval tradition of same thing is completely reprehensible. which I believe Lord Palmerston, one of her distinguished Scrapping the ID card scheme shows the clear intent predecessors, would have been proud. It was a delight to of the coalition Government to roll back the intrusion hear the maiden speeches of the hon. Member for of the state and to return personal freedom and control Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), who will clearly to the individual citizen. This Bill is a major step on that be a strong champion for Birmingham, and of my hon. road. Bringing the Bill before the House at such an early Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), stage of the new Government signifies the importance who gave us a fascinating and educational tour ranging that we place on creating a free society and on cutting from Piers Gaveston to Harry Potter by way of Beatrix unnecessary expenditure. The Bill is also about trust. It Potter. is about the people having trust in the Government to I sympathise with the hon. Member for Clwyd South know when it is necessary and appropriate for the state (Susan Elan Jones), who said that the size of her to hold and use personal data, and it is about the constituency was 240 square miles. Until a recent boundary Government placing their trust in the common-sense review mine covered 220 square miles, so I know that and responsible attitude of the people. The previous she has a lot of travelling to do over the next few years. I Government’s ID cards scheme and the national identity join my hon. Friend the Member for Finchley and register, which lay at its heart and which was its most Golders Green (Mike Freer) and the hon. Member for reprehensible part, failed on both counts. Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier) in using The indiscriminate collection, use and storage of vast this occasion to pay tribute to Rudi Vis, who died last amounts of biographical and biometric data belonging week and was a friend to many of us on both sides of to innocent people is not a role for the state. People do the House. 431 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 432

[Damian Green] had been issued. As of 27 May 2010, the number of ID cards issued was 14,670. He also asked what is happening I was delighted to learn from my hon. Friend the now and whether people can still apply for a card, and Member for Keighley (Kris Hopkins) that the village of therefore waste £30. We have adopted a common-sense Oakworth is the Notting Hill of the north in providing approach to that, so staff at the Identity and Passport a tightly knit group of massive political talent. I was Service inform any potential applicants that it is the also educated by hearing from the hon. Member for Government’s stated intention to scrap ID cards, and Gateshead (Ian Mearns) that the most famous running then ask them whether, in that light, they want to of the Blaydon races was on today’s date, 9 June; I will reconsider going ahead with the application. The store that fact away. Similarly, I learned from my hon. Government have taken a common-sense attitude, but I Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec have heard some anecdotal evidence that some journalists Shelbrooke) that Elmet was the last Celtic kingdom in are desperate to be the last person to buy an identity this country—another fascinating fact for everyone. My card so that they can write an article about it. I am not hon. Friend the Member for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel sure whether any normal citizens, as it were, are continuing Adams) told us that he is the grandson of a miner. He to apply. might not know that the Government Chief Whip was a The right hon. Gentleman asked about biometric miner himself, so if I were him I would concentrate on residence permits. Since 25 November 2008 the UK emphasising that fact. It could be career-enhancing. Border Agency has issued 188,000 residency permits. To stay with mining, it was a delight to see the hon. The attempt by the previous Government to rebadge Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero) make her maiden those as ID cards for foreign nationals, in an attempt to speech. I was delighted to hear that the big society is make more acceptable a scheme that was clearly clearly alive and well in Ashfield. Many of us will have unacceptable to the British people, was pretty disingenuous, woken up with her on many occasions when she was on and it clearly failed. GMTV, and it is a great privilege to have her here in the The right hon. Gentleman asked what happens when House in person. people have applied but not yet received a card. When a There were also speeches from those who were recently person has made an application but payment has not elected but were not making their maiden speeches. It been made, they are informed of the coalition Government’s was a particular delight to hear from my hon. Friends policy and the introduction of the Bill, because we want the Members for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and to save their time and money, and we request that they for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), both of whom are hold off their application pending the outcome of clearly great new fighters in the House for liberty and parliamentary consideration of the Bill. freedom. My hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie The decision to scrap the scheme is mainly about Elphicke) gave a fascinating speech, and I can assure stopping the state snooping into the lives of innocent that him that the current Home Office Ministers will people. We would have introduced the measure even if not try to strong-arm their staff into buying identity we were not saving significant sums of money by doing cards. so, but a lot has been said in the debate about the I wish to address some of the specific points that the expense. Even though this measure is a matter of principle, hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch and it is a happy coincidence that in putting our principle of other hon. Members made. I was slightly shocked to freedom into practice, we are saving the British people hear the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside hundreds of millions of pounds. The previous Government and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) say that the British planned to spend £835 million on ID cards over the passport was easy to forge. As a former Home Secretary, next 10 years, even after they had stripped out the costs he knows that it is actually a secure, high-integrity that they were loading on to the IPS. document and very difficult to counterfeit or forge. I do The previous Government claimed, as shadow Ministers not believe that when he was Home Secretary he told have today, that the whole scheme would cost nothing, the House or anyone else that it was easy to forge. because the money would be recovered from charges. I In response to an intervention, the shadow Home have got news for those former Ministers: it is the Secretary made a point about the biometric residence British people who would have paid those charges. permit and minority communities. It is clearly nonsense Whether the Government take money from people as a to suggest that the permit, which has to be held by charge or a tax, that is still taking away people’s money. people who are living in this country because they want By that measure, this Government are leaving in the to work here, could in some way be used to revive the pockets of the British people £835 million that the sus laws. He knows as well as I do that no one is previous Government would have extracted for their required to carry it with them at any time. Frankly, it is terrible scheme. an insult to the police to suggest that they would behave like that. Mr Blunkett: I would accept the Minister’s point if he Many interesting points were made by the former were announcing this evening that there will be a substantial Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, the right cut in both the projected and the existing charge for the hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). In particular, passport. Is he proposing that? he speculated on how we might destroy the national identity register when the time comes. I suspect that the Damian Green: No, because I am talking about the Home Secretary, other ministerial colleagues and I might ID card scheme, which is a separate scheme. The former bend our minds to find the best and most dramatic way Home Secretary—like all the other former Home Secretaries of striking that blow for freedom. and former Home Office Ministers—seems not to get The right hon. Gentleman asked a number of detailed the point that if we charge someone for something they questions, including one about the number of cards that have to give us some money, and their money is taken 433 Identity Documents Bill9 JUNE 2010 Identity Documents Bill 434 away. What makes it worse is that the previous Home cost to the public. We want early destruction of the Secretary, at a press conference, memorably called this personal data held on the national identity register and level of saving “diddly squat”. The British people will of the register itself, and we want to bring an end to the disagree that it is not worth saving £835 million of their practice of the state gathering data on its people simply money. [Interruption.] Labour Front-Bench Members because it has the power to do so. Instead, the Government are chuntering from a sedentary position, “You’re not should be held accountable to the people they represent, saving it.” No we are not: British citizens, the British and should justify their actions in the key areas of people, are saving it. I find it extraordinary that they personal freedom and liberty. The Bill is a statement of cannot understand that if somebody has to write a the coalition Government’s new approach. It is just the cheque to the Government, they lose that money and first step in our commitment to rolling back the database the Government get it. They do not regard that as a state created by Labour and restoring the civil liberties saving, but other people do. of the British people. I commend the Bill to the House. I shall deal with some of the other caveats that have Question put and agreed to. been raised. Liberty, a pressure group for which I have a Bill accordingly read a Second time. very high regard, talks about the biometric residence permit, and is worried that we will continue with it as an ID card for foreign nationals. I hope that I have laid that fear to rest: it is a completely different scheme IDENTITY DOCUMENTS BILL (PROGRAMME) under a completely different law. It is not mentioned in Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing this Bill because it is covered under EU, not British, law. Order No. 83A(7)), May I say what a pleasure it is to be a Home Office That the following provisions shall apply to the Identity Documents Minister standing at the Dispatch Box and reading a Bill: Liberty brief on a Government proposal that it describes Committal as “hugely welcome”? This is a first, certainly in recent 1. The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee. years. The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) Proceedings in Public Bill Committee made the good point that all the major parties in the 2. Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not House have a spectrum, with some at the authoritarian previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday end and others at the civil liberties end. I can assure him 8 July 2010. that the civil libertarian end is now in the ascendance in 3. The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the the Conservative party, and given his long, honourable first day on which it meets. and principled opposition to ID cards, I wish him Consideration and Third Reading success in driving out the authoritarian tendency that 4. Proceedings on consideration shall (so far as not previously took over the Labour party under the previous Government. concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the It is also clear that there are some civil libertarians moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings new to the House in other parties as well. I welcome the are commenced. hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert), who made 5. Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption the point that he is not happy with the wording of on that day. clause 10—a point that I dare say we can, and should, take up in Committee. I know that he is very knowledgeable 6. Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on consideration and Third Reading. about such matters. I am delighted to have Liberty’s support on this Bill, but I am also pleased to join others, Other proceedings on both sides of the House, who have paid tribute to 7. Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings NO2ID—a campaign whose meetings I have addressed on consideration of Lords Amendments or on any further messages from the Lords) may be programmed.—(Bill Wiggin.) and supported over the past few years—and I am delighted to hear that he was a leading member of it in Question agreed to. Cambridge. I will discuss with him the details of the other parts of the Bill reintroducing previous parts of the ID cards Bill that are necessary. I know that others PETITION on the Conservative Benches have worries about that too. Beneath all the arguments about cost, second generation Equitable Life (Portsmouth North) biometrics and biometric residence permits, we have before the House a matter of principle. A functioning national identity register would be the biggest intrusion 7pm into the privacy of the British people that the British Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con): I offer Government have ever devised. Just because technology my good wishes and congratulations to you, Madam has transformed how the Government can use our Deputy Speaker, in your new role. personal information, it does not mean that a sensible In presenting this petition, I pay tribute to Mr. Brian Government will go down that route. In all eras of Aitchison, a Portsmouth resident who has done so technology, the principle that the state should serve the much to support the victims of Equitable Life’s citizen, and not vice versa, is a good one, to which maladministration in his home town and elsewhere. Governments should stick. The petition states: The bigger the capacity to collect and share information, “The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons the greater the danger to privacy and therefore freedom. urges the Government to uphold the constitutional standing of That is why the Government are acting quickly and the Parliamentary Ombudsman by complying in full with the decisively. We want to avoid further spending by the findings and recommendations of her Report upon Equitable taxpayer and to dismantle the scheme at the minimum Life. 435 Identity Documents Bill 9 JUNE 2010 436

[Penny Mordaunt] Wirral University Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) I am very pleased to present the petition, which I hope will ensure a speedy resolution to this grave injustice. Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House Following is the full text of the petition: do now adjourn.—(Stephen Crabb.) [The Petition of residents of the constituency of Portsmouth North in the Hampshire region of the U.K. 7.1 pm regarding the Government’s response to the Parliamentary Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): May I, through Ombudsman’s reports on Equitable Life, you, Madam Deputy Speaker, thank Mr Speaker for Declares that the Petitioners either are or they represent allowing me this evening’s debate. It is pleasure to see or support members, former members or personal you in the Chair on what I think is your first day. I representatives of deceased members of the Equitable believe that this is the first time that I have addressed Life Assurance Society who have suffered maladministration the Minister from the Opposition Benches, and I am leading to injustice, as found by the Parliamentary very pleased to do so. I assure him that it will not be the Ombudsman in her report upon Equitable Life, ordered by last time that we will be engaged in these conversations. the House of Commons to be printed on 16 July 2008 and From this Adjournment debate on alleged fraud in bearing reference number HC 815; and further declares the Wirral hospital trust, I am looking for three things. that the Petitioners or those whom they represent or First, I am sure that I am not exceptional in the number support have suffered regulatory failure on the part of the of constituent cases about alleged fraud that I refer to public bodies responsible from the year 1992 onwards, but the relevant authority. In every case I have passed on, have not received compensation for the resulting losses whether it be to the Department for Work and Pensions and outrage. or to the Department of Health, I have never had a The Petitioners therefore request that the House of satisfactory reply that I could then refer to my constituent. Commons urges the Government to uphold the constitutional I would not disclose the information, but if I had such a standing of the Parliamentary Ombudsman by complying reply, I could say that I had been able to read the papers in full with the findings and recommendations of her and assure constituents that they were mistaken in Report upon Equitable Life. alleging fraud. I could say that a proper investigation And the Petitioners remain, etc.] had been carried out and we could leave the case there. [P000833] As I say, however, that has never occurred. One thing I am looking for this evening, then, is for the Government to consider the particular role in which elected representatives sometimes find themselves in handing to the Government alleged cases of fraud, yet never being able satisfactorily to report back to their constituents. Secondly, I have tried to use the Freedom of Information Act in order to gain the information that Wirral hospital trust denied me. I was refused on the basis that disclosure of the information would provide me with sensitive personal information such as the name of the person against whom the allegations of fraud were made. However, given that everybody involved in the case knows the name of the doctor, although I have never used it in public, it seems somewhat farcical to use the Freedom of Information Act in this way to prevent my gaining access to reports that have been commissioned. Thirdly, this saga has been going on for a long time, and I have no intention of letting go of it, so I hope that the Minister might be able to advise me on the next best steps to take to resolve the issue. Through you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to remind the House of what happened. All too long ago, one of my constituents was sitting in the surgery at their doctor’s. The doctor was engaged in a telephone conversation with one of his patients, who turned out to be a private patient. During the conversation, for reasons that I cannot possibly explain, the doctor assured the person that they had been treated as an NHS patient although they were being charged as a private patient. I started to look into the case. I asked both the primary care trust and the hospital trust—Wirral University Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation Trust—to investigate. I had a meeting with the hospital trust at which the chairman and the senior directors were present, as well as the locally based official who was in charge of 437 Wirral University Teaching Hospital 9 JUNE 2010 Wirral University Teaching Hospital 438 NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) countering fraud in the health service. At that stage the Since the attempts to grapple with that individual doctor admitted that, as a result of an error, he had put case of fraud, the same hospital trust has had to repay through as NHS patients about 180 patients whom he more than £1 million to what was the primary care trust was charging as private patients, but who were being but is now Wirral Health, because it was found to be given tests as NHS patients. fiddling its accident and emergency figures. Quite how that came about and how it was decided that the fraud Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab) rose— amounted to £1 million-plus I do not know, but that money has been repaid. I allege that there is a culture of fraud in that hospital trust, which is not being taken Mr Field: I will give way in a moment to my good and seriously by the chairman and the directors of the trust. hon. Friend from a neighbouring constituency. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. The doctor admitted that that had been an error in all One last point concerns the Freedom of Information cases, and repaid money. I asked, through its chairman, Act 2000. I am well aware that the Government have whether the trust—on the basis of the core of cases of their own legislative programme, but I would be grateful private patients being fed through the NHS—would if the Minister would take back the fact that there may examine other procedures in the hospital to establish be problems in two respects where MPs refer fraud whether any of those 180-odd patients had had scans or cases to the administration for investigation. One is the X-rays, and whether the doctor had again forgotten to one that I touched on at the beginning of my remarks. declare that they were private patients when ticking the As elected representatives, we are never put in a position forms assuring the NHS that they were, in fact, NHS to report back fully to our constituents. Obviously, we patients. deny them any sensitive personal information, but we cannot say that we have read the relevant papers and we Ms Eagle: My right hon. Friend has raised an issue would like to be able to assure them that their concerns that affects all of us who represent constituents in the about fraud are unfounded. Wirral, which is served by the hospital concerned. Does Secondly, I took up the case only because a constituent he think that this individual case of fraud involving an referred me to a case of alleged fraud. The doctor individual doctor raises issues about conflicts of interest admits that somehow in 180-odd cases he happened to that may well resonate in other areas of the NHS, and tick the wrong boxes, claiming the people concerned does he agree, on the basis of his experience of this case, were NHS patients, rather than private patients. It that there are general rules that all Members should seems wrong that I am denied access, as the elected consider applying more generally throughout the NHS representative of an area, to the counter-fraud allegations to avoid such financial conflicts of interest? that have taken place. There are two issues, and I would be grateful if the Mr Field: I strongly agree, and I hope that at some Minister reflected on them with his colleagues, although stage the medical profession will give serious consideration he may wish to comment on them in the debate. The to how the interface between the public and private case has dragged on for some time, but as I have said— I sectors might be policed in the context of health. know the Minister is convinced of this—I am not going As the fraud officer present said that it was quite to let it go yet. I would be interested to hear how the reasonable to undertake the next stage of the inquiries, Government think that we might take the case forward I left the meeting, only to find that later the chairman of to a successful conclusion. I wait to hear what the the hospital trust and her senior executives had said Minister says. that no such investigation would take place, and that I would not have access to their reports on this case of alleged fraud unless I was prepared to sign a document 7.12 pm saying that after reading the information I would never The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr use any of it in public debate. I was not prepared to sign Simon Burns): I add my congratulations on your elevation, such a gagging clause. Madam Deputy Speaker. It is warmly welcomed by me I appealed for access to the documents concerned and I imagine by many right hon. and hon. Members. under the Freedom of Information Act. Because the I congratulate the right hon. Member for Birkenhead hospital trust is not known for its efficiency, it applied (Mr Field) on securing the debate on detecting and to block my appeal under the wrong section of the Act. dealing with fraud in Wirral NHS foundation trust. I When I appealed to the commissioner, he had to point know from the research that I have done that he has had out to the trust that if it wanted to block my original a long-standing interest in the case. In certain areas I appeal it would have to use another part of the Act, can appreciate his frustration as a constituency MP which of course it then did. seeking to represent the interests of his constituents and I then appealed to the tribunal, which ruled that I to get to the bottom of a problem. Fraud in the NHS is should not have access to the document, or documents, totally unacceptable, but before I move to the specifics because if I had such access I would gain sensitive of the case that he has raised, I would like to explain the personal information to which I was not entitled, such processes and institutions involved in the detection, as the name of the person against whom the allegations investigation and prosecution of fraud in the NHS, were being made. As at every stage everyone who was in although I promise to keep it brief. that room has known the name of the doctor concerned Fraud and corruption in the NHS is dealt with by the but none of us has made it public, it seems bizarre that NHS counter-fraud service. Since the NHS anti-fraud it was on those grounds that I was denied access to the initiative began in 1998, counter-fraud service investigations counter-fraud report which is alleged to have been have led to 551 successful prosecutions, with a undertaken. 96% conviction rate, 773 civil and disciplinary sanctions 439 Wirral University Teaching Hospital 9 JUNE 2010 Wirral University Teaching Hospital 440 NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) [Mr Simon Burns] of the investigation. Separately, between December 2007 and February 2008, the Mersey internal audit agency and the recovery of more than £59 million in cash. investigated concerns over the use of NHS services on Under “Secretary of State Directions”, all NHS bodies behalf of private patients. The review found no evidence nominate a local counter-fraud specialist, who reports of fraud. to their director of finance and works with counter-fraud service staff. I know that the right hon. Gentleman has met representatives of the trust and the counter-fraud service Because of their independent status, foundation trusts to discuss his concern that the investigation was not are not, however, bound by Secretary of State directions. sufficiently robust. It is vital that hon. Members and the Clause 43 and schedule 13 of the standard NHS public have full confidence in the ability of the NHS to commissioning contract, under which foundation trusts identify and root out any examples of fraud. So that I operate, regulate anti-fraud requirements and mirror may satisfy myself and the right hon. Gentleman—I those in Secretary of State directions. Local counter-fraud hope—that the original investigation was indeed sufficiently specialist staff investigate allegations or suspicion of robust, I will ask the departmental sponsor at the fraud. Where fraud is suspected, all appropriate disciplinary, Department of Health in Whitehall for the NHS counter- civil and criminal sanctions are sought. fraud service to work with the managing director of Through a quality assurance programme, the counter- that service to review this case and report to me directly fraud service works to ensure that all NHS organisations on their findings. I will then write to the right hon. apply the highest standards to their anti-fraud work. A Gentleman on the matter. self-assessment process, managed by the counter-fraud service, helps NHS organisations identify and improve The second issue concerns the right hon. Gentleman’s any areas of weakness. The assessment rated trusts on a requests for information on the investigation. I understand scale of 1 to 4, with level 1 indicating that adequate that on 30 November 2007 the trust offered him a copy performance had not been met and level 4 demonstrating of the investigation report subject to a confidentiality that the organisation was performing strongly. In 2009, agreement, which he rejected. While accepting the good Wirral University Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation intentions of the trust, this offer was, to my mind, a Trust achieved a level 2 rating, indicating that its mistake. While the trust’s intention was to be as helpful performance was “adequate”. The counter-fraud service as possible, it was required to protect the GP under the is continuing to work with the trust to improve its provisions of the Data Protection Act 1998 and the performance and to ensure that it meets the highest Freedom of Information Act 2000. possible standards. I have noted the right hon. Gentleman’s observations I understand that the right hon. Member for Birkenhead about the workings of that legislation vis-à-vis the work has been concerned about this particular case of alleged of Members of this House in pursuing their constituency fraud since 2007, when a constituent anonymously alleged duties, and I will certainly give him a commitment that I that fraud was being committed by a general practitioner. will pass on his concerns to my relevant ministerial The allegation was that the GP was using NHS blood colleague, so that this can be looked at. I make no other service facilities at Arrowe Park hospital for his private promise or commitment on that, but I do give an patients but not declaring them as such. The case was assurance that it will be passed on to be considered, first referred to the primary care trust by the pathology without any ties as to what the ultimate decision might be. laboratory manager in January 2005. Following some initial inquiries, the PCT referred it to the trust local In January 2008, the right hon. Gentleman submitted counter-fraud specialist in January 2006. The trust began a freedom of information request to the trust, asking its investigation in March 2006. for information on the investigation. Legal advice was I understand that the right hon. Gentleman wrote to sought by the trust. It was advised that it was legally the trust’s chief executive in March 2007, asking what required not to comply with the right hon. Gentleman’s actions had been taken to investigate such a serious request, as the release of the information in question allegation of fraud. The trust explained that an investigation would have been considered personal and in breach of had taken place. The trust’s local counter-fraud service the legislation that I have just mentioned. However, it was provided via a contract with Deloitte. This is common was felt appropriate to disclose limited information practice among NHS trusts. from the investigation report that dealt with improving In the report into the case, published in October trust practices, such as the weaknesses in procedures 2007, the investigation found that while there had been that had been identified. inaccuracies in the documentation, there was insufficient I understand that the right hon. Gentleman then evidence that the GP had intended to defraud the sought the assistance of the Information Commissioner’s hospital. The GP accepted that he had made mistakes, Office on this matter. The commissioner upheld the but refuted any suggestion that he had intended to trust’s decision not to provide the GP’s sensitive personal deceive or mislead the trust. The investigation report data, and advised the trust that it should not take any concluded that there was insufficient evidence on which further steps in relation to the request. Finally, the right to charge and prosecute the GP concerned. The investigation hon. Gentleman appealed to the Information Tribunal, reached this decision partly because of a lack of clear which also found that the trust had acted properly on instructions to GPs on how to complete referral forms, the matter. and partly because of the potential ambiguities on the forms themselves, such as a lack of a declaration on the I understand that, at that point, the right hon. Gentleman form. agreed to the trust’s original proposal to sign a I understand that the GP repaid the money to the confidentiality agreement, so that he could see the trust for the work done and that the trust chief executive original report. However, following the decision of the wrote to the right hon. Gentleman to explain the outcome Information Commissioner’s Office, the trust was legally 441 Wirral University Teaching Hospital 9 JUNE 2010 Wirral University Teaching Hospital 442 NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) unable to disclose that information. As I said, I feel that hon. Gentleman with its findings. I hope that he will be it had been a mistake to make that offer to the right satisfied with that approach to what has been a long, hon. Gentleman. complex and sometimes perplexing problem. Question put and agreed to. I wholeheartedly share the right hon. Gentleman’s concern about any possibility of fraud in the NHS. If 7.24 pm there is ever any suspicion of fraud, it must not only be House adjourned. investigated thoroughly, but be seen to be investigated thoroughly. That is why I have asked the responsible Department of Health official, in conjunction with the NHS counter-fraud service, to review this case and the investigations that took place. I hope that that will CORRECTION clearly demonstrate to the right hon. Gentleman that the Government and I take issues of fraud in the NHS very seriously indeed. When it is committed, it must be Official Report, 8 June 2010: In Division lists in rooted out. Equally, when an innocent party is accused, cols. 293 and 296, add David Davis (Haltemprice and they must have every opportunity to clear their name. Howden) to the Noes, and in col. 299, add him to the When the review is complete, I will write to the right Ayes.

1WH 9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 2WH

high speed rail link must also ensure that there are fast Westminster Hall links to connect to any high speed network that is developed? Wednesday 9 June 2010 Mark Lazarowicz: The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I do not want to intrude on matters [Mr CLIVE BETTS in the Chair] that are the responsibility of the Scottish Parliament, but one of the important aspects of the debate on high High Speed Rail speed rail is the need for discussions and co-operation between the UK Government and the Scottish Government, Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting to ensure that the network will benefit not only the be now adjourned.—(Angela Watkinson.) cities that it serves directly, but places further along the line, even if those places are not part of the network 9.30 am from the start. I will return to that point later. In due Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ course the network should extend to not only the UK’s Co-op): May I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Betts, and largest cities, but most major cities. I am sure that express my pleasure at having secured an Adjournment Aberdeen would qualify as such. debate on such an important matter? Colleagues who were here before the election will know that this is not Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con): the first time I have spoken about high speed rail in Edinburgh is terribly important, but so are the English Westminster Hall—indeed, it is not the first time I have regions. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a secured a debate on the subject. High speed rail is a real risk, rumours of which the previous trains Minister matter of particular importance to my constituency did nothing to dispel, that money will be leached from and my city, as it is to many other parts of the UK, regional and provincial rail networks to fund high speed which is why I am a long-standing campaigner for it. rail? High speed rail should be welcomed, of course, but As the years have gone by, the case for high speed rail we must also remember the needs of many of our in the UK has become stronger. In the past five years, constituents who depend on lesser rail networks. the number of passengers travelling on the rail lines has risen by about 40% and freight has risen by 60%. Given Mark Lazarowicz: I am interested in the hon. the urgent need to tackle climate change by encouraging Gentleman’s comments. I certainly did not hear those travellers to shift from air and road transport to rail, the rumours, but his colleague the Minister will no doubt case for investment in high speed rail becomes even reassure him that she will be able to combine her stronger. The case for high speed rail relates not only to commitment to high speed rail with the interests of his the new lines that it would create, but to the capacity constituents. that it would free up on existing lines. I was greatly encouraged by the previous Government’s I welcomed the fact that the Conservatives declared announcement in March of a new line from London to in their manifesto that Birmingham as the first phase of a network that would “a new government will begin work immediately to create a high lead to Manchester and Leeds, and thereafter to Glasgow speed rail line connecting London and Heathrow with Birmingham, and Edinburgh. Members will recall that that was based Manchester and Leeds. This is the first step towards achieving on a report by High Speed 2 Ltd, which the Government our vision of creating a national high speed rail network to join up major cities across England, Scotland and Wales. Stage two established a year earlier. It was envisaged that construction will deliver two new lines bringing the North East, Scotland and would start in 2017, following the completion of Crossrail, Wales into the high speed rail network.” and that the network would be opened in phases from 2026. The estimated cost of taking the line as far as That was an unqualified commitment to start work Manchester and Leeds was £30 billion. immediately, not just as soon as possible. I welcome the Minister to the debate and congratulate her on her We seem to have reached a considerable degree of appointment. I know of her commitment to high speed political consensus on the development of high speed rail. Indeed, so unqualified was her manifesto’s promise rail in Great Britain. That will obviously be necessary that I am almost surprised to see her here today, as she because of the long time scale over which any such might have been out on the building sites with a hard network will be developed. It will take many decades to hat and a bulldozer, starting work on the line immediately. build a complete network, which will obviously involve many Governments and, no doubt, many political parties. The Liberal Democrats were, somewhat out of character, I welcome the fact that, along with the commitment a little more cautious about their spending commitments from my party, there now appears to be a general on this issue. Nevertheless, they vowed to set up political consensus on the need to develop a high speed “a UK Infrastructure Bank to invest in public transport like high rail network in the UK. speed rail.” In the coalition agreement, the two parties stated: Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate and commend “We will establish a high speed rail network as part of our him for his support for high speed rail. Will he acknowledge programme of measures to fulfil our joint ambitions for creating a low carbon economy. Our vision is of a truly national high that, even in the present circumstances, he and his speed rail network for the whole of Britain.” constituents can travel from Edinburgh to London in about four hours, whereas the shortest journey time However, the agreement then stated: from Aberdeen to London, only a further 110 miles, is “Given financial constraints, we will have to achieve this in seven and a half hours? Does he therefore agree that a phases.” 3WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 4WH

[Mark Lazarowicz] for high speed rail for some time. I pushed the previous Government, and I intend to push this Government as The prospect of work beginning on high speed rail is hard as I pushed the previous one. If he wants high not so immediate now, it would appear. By the time of speed rail to go to places north of Manchester, I hope the Queen’s Speech, we were promised a hybrid Bill in that he will put the same kind of pressure on his due course. Government as I used to put on mine. I believe that we To be blunt, one of my purposes in securing this all want high speed rail to serve the nations and regions debate was to test the strength of the coalition Government’s of the UK, so let us try to keep up the consensus and commitment to high speed rail. I have no doubts about the pressure. the Minister’s commitment, but we need to know whether As I said, there are real economic benefits for all the the coalition agreement means what it says. Did the communities and cities along the route of a high speed coalition parties mean what they said in their pre-election line. Research shows that cutting the journey time between manifestos, or was it just pre-election bluster? Will they Birmingham and London from 84 to 49 minutes would really push it with the determination and leadership increase Birmingham’s annual economic output by needed, or will they find excuses to delay it until some £1.4 billion, or about 6%. The economic benefits of long-distant date? If the Minister gives the type of high speed rail would be more than £10 billion a year commitment that she gave before the election, she will for the north-west and about £19 billion for Scotland. certainly have support across the House for the development In total, 64,000 additional jobs would be created as a of proposals to introduce such a scheme, although the consequence. details may of course lead to debate. There is an overwhelming case for extending the line I therefore have several questions for the Minister, to Scotland, to increase the number of business and which I hope she will be able to answer today. There are tourist passengers travelling not just to and from London, quite a few, but there are none that she should be but from the north of England to Scotland. Prosperity surprised to be asked, so I hope that she will have would spread much more than if the line were restricted answers today or at least some time soon. When do the to the south and south-east of England, and the UK as new Government envisage bringing forward the necessary a whole would benefit as a result. legislation for High Speed 2? I am not suggesting that the Minister should give an exact date, but a hybrid Bill Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): I thank the could take years to go through Parliament so we need hon. Gentleman for raising this important subject. He some idea of how it will fit into the Government’s will know that my predecessor John Barrett also worked programme. Does she agree with the previous Government’s tirelessly on this matter, and I intend to continue his assessment, as set out in their document on High Speed support for it in this Parliament. Does the hon. Gentleman 2, produced earlier this year, that agree that the greatest argument for extending the high “formal public consultation on the Government’s proposals for speed rail line is an environmental one? For example, if high speed rail in the light of HS2 Ltd’s recommended route for such a line should begin in the autumn”? we manage to drive London to Edinburgh journey Does the Minister agree that HS2 Ltd should now times down to two hours 40 minutes, which is eminently begin similar detailed planning work on the routes from possible, there would be a similar switch from air to rail, Birmingham to Manchester and Leeds, to be completed as happened when the Madrid to Barcelona line opened. by summer 2011 with a view to consulting the public That resulted in a 50% reduction in the number of early in 2012? What steps do the Government intend flights between the two cities. If the same happened to take to establish a company or other mechanism to with Edinburgh and London, there would be 700,000 deliver the project? What is their target date, in broad fewer air journeys between them. terms, for work to start on a new line? Are the Government still committed to a high speed Mark Lazarowicz: The hon. Gentleman is correct. network that will serve the whole UK, including Edinburgh Indeed, there has been increased use of the Manchester and Glasgow? I certainly hope that they are. If they are to London service as a result of the upgrade to the west committed to that, do they have any views on the route coast main line, and we have seen the same with the that such a line should take, and when do they envisage London to Paris and Brussels services as well. that the line will reach Edinburgh and Glasgow? It will The point that the hon. Gentleman made about the be unacceptable if there is not a commitment from the benefits from reducing journey times particularly applies start that the line will reach Scotland, because high in respect of cities that are further away from London. speed rail will bring real economic benefits to the cities The greatest journey time reductions will allow the and regions along the route, and those cities that are greatest benefits in environmental and economic terms— either not directly linked or that have indirect links with and, indeed, in terms of convenience to passengers. the network would certainly lose out. That is why I hope that the Government will give a definite commitment to extend high speed rail to the Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I north of England and to Scotland. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. He suggested the need for a commitment that the high As the hon. Gentleman said, environmental benefits speed network would run to Edinburgh, but I do not will be particularly important. Transport currently accounts recall ever hearing that commitment from the previous for more than 20% of UK carbon emissions, so high Labour Administration before the general election. speed rail has a role to play in that respect as well. Reducing journey times from London to Edinburgh to Mark Lazarowicz: The previous Government made it just over two hours could result in 80% of the current clear from the outset that high speed train services travel market between Scotland and London being captured would reach Edinburgh and Glasgow in due course. As by high speed rail. Even at three hours, with a partial the hon. Gentleman should know, I have been pushing high speed rail network, 67% of the travel between 5WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 6WH

Scotland and London could be captured by high speed Department are having with the Scottish Government rail, so there are certainly environmental and transport on how high speed rail could be funded in Scotland, benefits as well as economic ones. and on how it would link up with existing rail services in In that respect, I have two other questions that I hope Scotland. the Minister will address today or at another time. First, what is the Government’s view on whether the line Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): should run to Heathrow or a connector station at My hon. Friend makes a powerful case, and I look Heathrow, or simply offer a connecting service, as the forward to the Minister’s reply. The economic, transport previous Government advocated? I am aware that there and environmental benefits of a working high speed were criticisms of that decision, and I believe that she system are well known, but the gap between transport shared them. Certainly she made such criticisms before investment in the south-east and London and that in she was a Minister, so I would be interested to hear her the rest of the country has been growing. It is not just current view on whether the line should serve Heathrow that there is a gap but that it has been growing. Does he directly. think that there is a case for starting to invest in the I would also like to hear the Minister’s views on system not in London but much farther north, and then whether there should be a link from a new high speed building south, rather than building north from the line north of London to the existing line from London south? to the south-east, France, Belgium and beyond. If there were no link—I hope there will be one—passengers Mark Lazarowicz: My hon. Friend makes a good from Scotland and the north would be less likely to use case and raises valid points. He is right to point out that the high speed rail line for journeys to the continent, there has been a concentration of transport investment and travellers from the continent would be less likely to in the south-east of England. The Scottish Government use it to travel north. Clearly, if there were no direct have a role to play in developing services beyond Edinburgh link, there would be less use of those services as well. and Glasgow, but, bluntly, it would be wrong for Scotland to pay for the bit from the border northward because, I hope that today the Minister can give some indication after all, it is part of the same UK-wide service. The of how the Government will take the plans forward, same would apply to Manchester and the regions of and to answer the questions in their entirety, or at least England as well. to a great extent. I would like to hear a reiteration of the commitments that were given before the general election. In this debate, I have avoided getting too involved in I hope that today we will not hear from the Government the exact details of routes, apart from the important any excuses that, because of the financial situation they exception of Heathrow, and exactly when and where claim to have inherited—we had all those excuses yesterday they will start, because the case for high speed rail as a in the debate on the Queen’s Speech—they cannot make whole is in danger of being undermined by discussion any further commitment to high speed rail at this stage. of some of the detail. However, I accept my hon. I hope that we will not get that line later this morning. Friend’s fundamental point: there is no reason why It would be unacceptable for several reasons. First, it work should start from London and move northward, should hardly surprise the Government parties that a or why it cannot start from some other city at the same high speed line would require major expense. If they did time. Clearly, phasing would allow benefits to be brought not realise that, they should not have made such sweeping to other places en route, and I would be interested to promises in their manifestos. Secondly, the spending on hear the Minister’s views on that in due course. high speed rail would, of course, be some time in the The method of securing funding for a new line also future. There will be many years of preparation involving has a bearing on another important issue in this debate, planning, legal and parliamentary approval and so on. which is the environmental case to which the hon. We are talking about commitments that will last for 10, Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) referred. 20 or 30 years, and I do not believe that anyone—not By itself, high speed rail does not guarantee substantial even those in the Government parties who make the carbon reductions. Certain arguments and research make most pessimistic forecasts—would suggest that the current that clear. Carbon reductions depend partly on the economic circumstances will last for 10, 20 or 30 years. energy source providing the electricity, how the route is Thirdly, the commitments, although large in their to be constructed and, to a great extent, on the degree totality, are not actually as substantial as many other to which there is a modal shift from air and road to rail Government commitments. The cost of a line from as a result of high speed rail services being developed. London to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds is estimated A modal shift can be encouraged by shifting expenditure at £30 billion spread over 10 years. Compared with from new roads to high speed rail, which I support, and many other Government commitments, that is not as by using transport taxation to encourage that shift and expensive as might be thought at first. And, of course, raise the funds for public investment in high speed rail. there are the wider economic benefits that I have already The Liberal Democrat wing of the coalition suggested set out and the fact that the costs of high speed rail do in its election manifesto that it would raise an extra not all have to come from public subsidy. Some of the £9 billion a year from airline and passenger taxation, public subsidy would be recouped from commercial and if that is taken forward in the agreement between income from passenger and goods traffic if the traffic the coalition parties it could provide substantial funds projections and estimates are reflected in reality. for high speed rail. I am interested in hearing the On the extension to Scotland, there are issues around Minister, or any Liberal Democrat colleagues, respond the role in linking up services and the financial commitment to that point. from the Scottish Government as part of the devolution I am sure that the Minister is not surprised that I have arrangements. I would be interested in hearing from the asked a lot of questions. I hope that she will respond as Minister about what discussions the coalition and her far as she can. I pay tribute to her commitment to high 7WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 8WH

[Mark Lazarowicz] Thirdly, on community engagement, my right hon. Friend the Minister will not be surprised that my hon. speed rail before the election. Like all Ministers, she will Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea no doubt have battles to fight in her Department and Leadsom), Mr Speaker, whose constituency adjoins our beyond to keep high speed rail firmly on the top of the constituencies, and I will be working together with our Government’s agenda, and I am sure that she expects local communities, which are concerned about the possible me and other colleagues to pursue these matters vigorously impact of the route on them. The route runs close to the if she does not. I hope that she gives us good news sizeable town of Brackley in the constituency of my today—reaffirms the Government’s commitment to high hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire. speed rail and tells right hon. and hon. Members how Will the Government consider complete alternatives to she will bring it about. the routes in the consultation, to what extent are they willing to consider mitigation or variation of the existing 9.51 am route, how will they engage with the communities and how can that debate be informed? Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): It is good to see my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Transport, It is important to put on the record what the Campaign who will respond to the debate. I hope that she will to Protect Rural England has made clear: forgive me, and that hon. and right hon. Members will “We welcome the vision of HS2 as a low carbon backbone of a do so too, if I am unable to stay for the winding-up sustainable transport system. By removing fast trains from the speeches. I am standing for the chairmanship of an overcrowded lines north of London, space will be created for all-party group, the annual general meeting of which is local passenger and freight services too.” being convened this morning at a time to suit colleagues Even campaigning groups such as the CPRE recognise in another place. that there are considerable benefits to be had from HS2. The comments made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh However, such organisations have long experience in North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) and my hon. Friend engaging with Government on issues of this kind. It the Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) would help if Ministers said how they intend to engage demonstrate and reinforce a point about high speed rail with our constituents and communities on the impact that Lord Adonis made to me before the general election, of the track on individual communities and constituencies. which was that everyone wants the stations but no one I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary wants the track. We will all have to manage that in of State for Transport proposes to walk the route later bringing about a commitment made by both Government in the summer, which seems sensible. Will my right hon. parties in their manifestos at the general election and in Friend the Minister give an undertaking that, when that the coalition agreement, which is in the Queen’s Speech happens, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and is expected to be delivered. will engage with colleagues so that we can ensure that, I shall not repeat any of the sensible questions asked in respect of each constituency or groups of constituencies, by the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith, there can be positive, constructive engagement between which I am sure my right hon. Friend the Minister will him and local communities on comments people have be able to answer. I wish to ask three specific questions to make about mitigation or variation of the route? on various points. I would like to emphasise a point made forcefully by First, may I suggest to my right hon. Friend the the CPRE. It is evident that people are keen on the Minister that it would help if, at some point in the near stations, because those will make linkage between parts future, she wrote a “Dear colleague” letter to every of the United Kingdom much quicker and obviate the colleague in the House, setting out in straightforward need for a third runway at Heathrow. There are all sorts terms the legislative process and the timetable that the of self-evident benefits. However, the benefits are not so Government intend to pursue, so that we can share self-evident for those who have the track going through them with our constituents? It is a pity that the previous their parishes or back gardens. Government brought the project forward just before the The benefit to people of a motorway going through general election. We all understand why: the previous their county or area is that it is part of the local Prime Minister wanted to make what he thought was a infrastructure, and they can join and leave it. There will decent press announcement—he went to Birmingham not be a station between London and Birmingham, so to make it—but that meant that the process got rather those living in that area will have limited direct benefit confused. It would help if hon. and right hon. Members from HS2. However, there may be other ways in which were able to share the relevant information with our communities can be compensated so that damage might constituents. be mitigated—for example, undergrounding existing Secondly,on speed, Eurostar goes at 300 kph—186 mph electricity transmission lines on the HS2 route, creating —and those of us who have been on it know that that is new local rail services and reducing noise from existing pretty fast. High Speed 2 is due to go at 400 kph, which is roads. 250 mph and considerably faster than Eurostar. More The CPRE suggests: straight track is needed for a very fast train, which means less opportunity for mitigation or variation of the route “Some of the spare capacity freed up on rail lines could be toaccommodatesettlements,townsorimportanttopographical used to create new cross-country passenger services”, features. I hope that, at some stage, there will be an such as a High Wycombe-Aylesbury-Northampton route. opportunity to have an informed debate about what are It is important that when my right hon. Friends the the cost-benefits of a very fast train as opposed to a fast Secretary of State and the Minister of State engage with train, and what is the real benefit of 250 mph over local communities on the route of HS2 across England 186 mph, so that we can consider the options between they consider the benefits that the initiative and project them. may have for local communities, so that we see not just 9WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 10WH clear mitigation, but a clear and immediate local benefit, which the previous Government had made a commitment, rather than just a contribution to an initiative for the and in longer platforms and a generally better service. betterment of the country as a whole. If we engage constructively and sensibly in dialogue Graham Stringer: My hon. Friend is going to the nub during the coming months and if we all have a clear of the debate on future investment in the rail service. understanding of what we are trying to achieve, that Given the time required for the development of high-speed will assist the Government and substantially reduce the rail, I do not believe that it is a threat to regional risk of numerous judicial reviews. As my right hon. services. Does he agree that the real choice before the Friend knows, nothing is more frustrating when timing Government and the country is whether to continue a Government project than various parties feeling frustrated with Crossrail or with regional services, and that we by the process and that they need to go to judicial simply cannot afford Crossrail at the moment? review. I welcome my right hon. Friend to her post and hope Sir Peter Soulsby: Having served for some 18 months that, following our questioning today, she will write to on the Select Committee that considered the Crossrail us all in the not-too-distant future with a clear explanation Bill, I have a personal commitment to its completion. that we can share with our constituents, who are, My hon. Friend argued earlier that investment in rail understandably, worried about the process. has been slewed towards London and the south-east at the expense of other parts of the country, but that is not an argument for ditching what is an important part of 10.1 am the transport infrastructure in our capital city. Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester South) (Lab): I congratulate There is concern that high-speed rail may be seen as a my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and panacea. It should not be built at the expense of the Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on obtaining this timely debate investment that the Association of Train Operating on an undoubtedly important issue. Those of us who Companies argued for to open lines that are unused or use the midland main line—I know that you do, Mr Betts— used for goods, and the opportunities that would be are well aware of the enormous success of High Speed generated thereby for reconnecting to the rail network 1, not least because when we arrive at St Pancras we communities that are currently unconnected. Above all, must fight our way through the crowds disgorged from it should not be used as a pretext for not continuing the trains from Paris and Brussels. investment in electrification of the main line network. The prospect of another high-speed line in the United Like you, Mr. Betts, I am keen that electrification of Kingdom is exciting, and I join my hon. Friend in the midland main line should be completed as soon as welcoming that prospect and the fact that the new possible. It is already electrified as far as Bedford, and Government have picked up the previous Government’s completion of electrification through to my city of commitment to construct such a line. However, as the Leicester and to Derby, Nottingham and your city of hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) said, it will Sheffield, Mr. Betts, will provide considerable positive have an environmental price, and he was right to remind cost benefits to rail users, and to the economies of the us that there will be a trade-off between speed and the east midlands and your area of south Yorkshire, with a environmental damage that that might cause. I urge the boost to the economy and general environment of those Government to examine that trade-off carefully, and to areas. I am worried that even if the second high-speed consider whether there are prospects for using existing link is ultimately achieved and goes to somewhere in the transport corridors to achieve the same results at a east midlands, it will be of little benefit to those who are lower environmental cost. currently served by the midland main line if electrification My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North of that line has not taken place and there is no link to St and Leith referred to the difference between this Pancras International and High Speed 1. Government’s proposals and those of the previous one I doubt whether anyone would oppose investment in for the service to Heathrow. There are serious doubts further high-speed rail in the UK. There are doubts about whether it is sensible to use Heathrow as a about whether its fares will be affordable and attract a terminus for the high-speed line instead of somewhere significant proportion of air passengers who would that is well served with a link to the high-speed line. It is otherwise pass through Heathrow. My real concern is unlikely that someone travelling from London to that it should not draw funding that would otherwise go Birmingham or Manchester would want their journey to the conventional network. It must not lead to to be diverted via Heathrow. That would not make postponement of electrification of the existing mainline much sense to them. The benefits of serving Heathrow network, it must not leave rail commuters standing in may be achieved in another way by ensuring an adequate unacceptable conditions on their daily commute to link to the airport instead diverting the line. work, it must not leave unconnected communities that I want to take this opportunity, when welcoming the could be connected to the network, and it must not Government’s commitment to high-speed rail, to press leave passengers and the environment with the prospect them for an assurance that construction of such a line of old and smelly diesel traction for many years to come in phases at some time in the future—who knows when when relatively environmentally friendly electrification it will be constructed?—should not be at the expense of is a real possibility. continuing investment in the existing classic or conventional In brief, users of the existing network are unlikely to network. Parts of that network are undoubtedly under be impressed by half-promises of high-speed rail in desperate strain and people who travel on it—often phases, perhaps a decade and a half away, while they those who commute daily—must stand for much of continue to struggle to use an existing network that is their journey. Much could be done to relieve their overstretched, overused and in desperate need of continued suffering with continued investment in rolling stock, on investment. 11WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 12WH

10.9 am commuter journey adds £1,000 to the value of a house in the relevant area. Somebody will benefit, although I Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I add my congratulations am not sure who that will be in the west midlands. to the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on an informative speech, particularly The justification for HS2 must be that it is part of a about the benefits of high-speed rail. I shall look up wider strategy. Like the previous Government, this some of his statistics in Hansard formyownuse.My Government are committed to a strong carbon reduction constituency is in the west midlands and includes programme. We must show that we will shift people Birmingham International airport and the national away from the roads and the air and on to rail. The hon. exhibition centre. I shall take account of the comments Member for Edinburgh North and Leith mentioned the made this morning, but I shall confine my remarks to Liberal Democrat plans, and part of the coalition agreement the first phase of High Speed 2, for which I am a strong was that we will move from passenger charges on planes advocate. to a charge per plane. That will help in the reduction of Passenger numbers have risen by 40%, and freight carbon. has increased by 60% over the last five years. Clearly, there is a big appetite in this country for high-speed rail Mark Lazarowicz: I am grateful for the hon. Lady’s and the benefits that it can bring, which were so ably kind comments about my opening speech. I am aware outlined by the hon. Gentleman. We need a dedicated of the Liberal Democrat and Conservative policy of high-speed rail line that is independent of the creaking moving away from individual taxation. However, I think Victorian network, although that network has served us that the Liberal Democrat manifesto also suggested a well in the past and continues to do so. I take on board potential increase in duty, which I welcome. Is that part the point made by the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony of the coalition policy? Baldry) that any improvements or new rail services must not be made at the expense of the existing network. We must ensure that the service improves for those who Lorely Burt: I am afraid that it is above my pay grade currently use our creaking commuter network, which to comment further on that. The coalition Government should not be neglected in favour of high-speed rail. will be working on this issue, and the Minister may wish We have the prospect of being able to travel from to refer to it in her remarks. Euston to Curzon Street in Birmingham in 49 minutes. Increasing people’s ability to travel is a bit like Boyle’s According to my figures, the train speed is 225 mph, law—demand expands in relation to the existing capacity. although the hon. Member for Banbury mentioned We have seen that with the motorway network. Every 250 mph; either way, it is fast. We hope there will be a time new roads are built or a motorway is enlarged, Crossrail interchange at Old Oak Common and we traffic increases more than would be expected under support the idea that Crossrail must go ahead; it is normal predictions. We must be careful about that. hugely important. Funding for Crossrail and High Speed 2 During the three weeks the Minister has spent in her can be imaginatively secured, with a large proportion of job, I do not know whether she has given any thought as investment coming from private industry or from some to how we can make it easier for people to travel less. form of national infrastructure bank, as recommended That must obviously be an aspiration. by the Liberal Democrats before the general election. I I will conclude by considering some of the economic am sure that it can be done and that the benefits can be benefits that HS2 would bring to the west midlands. In proved. terms of employment, we have probably been the hardest We expect this phase of HS2 to start in 2017, and to hit of any region. We have a strong manufacturing base, have passengers on the trains in 2026. That is a long but that has also been hit hard by the recession. On time, and I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. behalf of people in the west midlands, I am looking Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), forward hugely to the airport link. The extension of the who intervened earlier to ask where we should start. If single runway at Birmingham International airport will we can get the funding, perhaps we should start at both mean huge inward investment, and along with the high- ends of the line so that it does not take such a long time speed rail link to London and the north, that will make to complete the network. I am sure the Government will the west midlands a central economic hub, which I look at that. welcome. It is not all good news. There are many planning The national exhibition centre will benefit hugely considerations and much of the investment in the first from the fact that High Speed 2 will stop there before phase of HS2 will go on existing railways lines such as moving on to Curzon Street in Birmingham. It is important the Chiltern line, which will track the A413. I have a to get on with this scheme. I am sure that we can use our particular concern for parts of the Warwickshire countryside imagination and ability so as not to damage the existing in the west midlands. People must be consulted properly, rail network, which we must work on and improve. which, for me, means that there is no foregone High Speed 2 is a wonderful thing, but it is not everything. conclusion—otherwise, it is not a consultation. There We must look at the whole picture and ensure that the must be proper compensation for anyone who suffers as experience of the rail traveller—whether on High Speed a result of these plans. When a second runway at 2 or on local railways—is a good one. Birmingham International airport was proposed, a terrible blight was created which in some cases still hangs over residents in the local area. It is important to avoid that Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): The hon. Member for blight, as it puts people’s lives on hold and creates more Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) is misery than is necessary. On the bright side, according the last speaker who wishes to be called in the debate. to research by the Department for Transport, which I Let me advise him that I intend to start with the read this morning, every reduction of 1 minute to a contributions of the Front-Bench speakers at 10.30 am. 13WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 14WH

10.18 am Is he aware of the High Speed North proposal by the Harrogate-based engineer, Colin Elliff? That is a real Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) vision for a nationwide network—something that the (PC): I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh previous Government did not properly consider. I hope North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on securing this that the new Government will properly consider it. debate on the important subject of high speed rail. It is an issue that affects both his constituents and mine due to likelihood that under the current proposals, it will Jonathan Edwards: I was not aware of those proposals, have no impact on them whatever. Historically, UK but I imagine that the UK Government should be Governments have failed Wales on rail, and the refusal examining them closely, because the key point is that if to provide a timetable for the development of a high we are to go for a high speed rail network based on a speed rail link has put us on the backburner once again. UK Treasury spend, the benefits should apply to all the nations and regions of the state. The last UK Government agreed to electrify the Great Western line to Swansea because of the hard We would like a timetable and costings to be developed work of the Transport Minister in the Welsh Government. for a high speed rail link between south Wales and When the previous UK Government announced the London, preferably as part of the current scheme but scheme, it was supposed to go only as far as Bristol, and even as part of High Speed 3. Perhaps as a matter of only after the intervention of the Welsh Government good faith, the work on that could begin at the south did they agree to electrify the line as far as Swansea. I Wales end. That would certainly be the far cheaper part understand that the Conservatives have always been coy of the development. Diolch yn fawr iawn. about sticking to that agreement. Will the new UK Government confirm that that electrification will take 10.22 am place? Will the Government also confirm that the electrification Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): I will go further in Wales, as part of their commitment to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh support further electrification of the rail network? That North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) on securing this would include, for example, the north Wales coast line, crucial debate on high speed rail. He spoke with real the valleys lines and the Severn tunnel diversionary line, authority on behalf of many businesses and rail passengers as recommended by Railfuture Wales. In Europe, Wales in his constituency, and throughout the UK, who recognise is alongside Albania and Moldova in not having more the transformative effects that investment in high speed than a mile of electrified rail track. What more proof rail will bring: a stronger economy with the creation of do we need that the UK Government are leaving us new jobs in the construction and maintenance of the behind? new high speed lines; a modern transport infrastructure to match those in the rest of Europe; improved business More than just electrification of the railway lines, we links between London and the other major cities in the need a concrete timetable for high speed rail in Wales. UK; and increased tourism and environmental benefits, The proposal for a Wales high speed rail connection with many more journeys being made by rail than by was first put forward by First Great Western in 2005, as short-haul aviation. part of the package of suggestions that it was making for improved rail services, linked to its bid for the new Let me also praise the contributions of the other hon. Great Western franchise. However, we are no closer to Members who participated in the debate, including my having such a connection now than we were then. hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South (Sir Peter The former shadow Secretary of State for Transport, Soulsby) and the hon. Members for Banbury (Tony who is now the Minister of State, said only in March: Baldry) and for Solihull (Lorely Burt), who spoke eloquently “Our plans to take high speed rail to the North will boost jobs about the need for consultation. There was a passionate and investment right across the country and bring particularly contribution from the hon. Member for Carmarthen strong benefits to the regions. We believe it is essential that the East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on the need for a North is not short changed and left out of high speed rail and the UK perspective on high speed rail and its extension to major regeneration opportunities it will generate.” Wales. Naturally, I agree with every word about the benefits This is a project of genuine national importance, and that high speed rail will bring to those regions, but it our task in the coming years will be to work across this cannot be right that Wales does not share in those Chamber to ensure that High Speed 2 is completed on benefits. At the moment, high speed rail is an England-only schedule. The aim of Opposition Members is to fulfil project that will be funded from UK money. That the vision in the Command Paper published this spring—to cannot be right. start with construction of the high speed line between A genuine High Speed 2 network needs to include Euston and Birmingham and then to extend it to Sheffield, Scotland and Wales and connect with the south-east of Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds. As my hon. Friend England and the continent, bringing us closer to major the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith said, we international markets and them closer to us, giving us see great advantages in expanding the high speed rail major business opportunities and helping to tackle network to Edinburgh and Glasgow in due course, climate change by reducing short-haul air travel. Otherwise, subject to consultations with the Scottish Government, the UK Government should just admit that high speed as it would involve significant capital expenditure from rail is really for England only and give us a Barnett that source. consequential, so that we can get on with the job of In my first appearance as Opposition transport developing our own network in Wales. spokesman, I welcome the Minister of State to her Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): The hon. position in the Department for Transport. I look forward Gentleman is painting a strong picture of how we need to our discussions here and in the main Chamber over a countrywide network, including Wales and Scotland. the coming months. They may be robust at times, but 15WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 16WH

[Mr William Bain] makes high speed rail genuinely competitive for business, passengers and tourists compared with short-haul flights they will never be intemperate. In opposition, she from Scotland to London airports. demonstrated a keen commitment to the principle of Some 10,000 jobs will be created in the construction high speed rail and if that continues in government, she of the high speed line, with a further 2,000 permanent will have our support in the negotiations that she undertakes jobs created in line maintenance and operation. There with the Treasury to secure the financing to make High are great environmental benefits, given that high speed Speed2areality, on time and on target. rail emits between eight and 11 times less carbon dioxide I have had an opportunity to consider “The Spending than air travel. There will be an increase in the freight Review framework”published yesterday by the Chancellor capacity available by rail. There will be a boost to the of the Exchequer, and I note that all Departments will west midlands economy to the tune of £5.3 billion a be asked to assess and justify their spending priorities year, and to the north-west economy of £10.6 billion a against nine criteria, which include the promotion of year. If extension of the network to Scotland proceeds, economic value. In the Opposition’s view, even when there will be a benefit of nearly £20 billion to the those criteria are applied, HS2 is a project of national economy there. As the work of HS2 Ltd made clear, economic necessity, which must escape the Chancellor’s every £1 spent on high speed rail yields £2 in economic programme for fiscal consolidation. benefit to the nation. I would appreciate it if the Minister of State clarified I place on the record our appreciation for the work several points. Will she confirm the Government’s priorities done by former Ministers Paul Clark and Chris Mole, and intentions on the route set out in the previous who, sadly from our perspective, were not returned to Government’s Command Paper? Will Ministers commence the House to represent the constituencies of Gillingham the consultation on that route, which the previous and Rainham and of Ipswich respectively. We wish Government planned to start in October? Are the them well for the future. The shadow Secretary of State, Government committed to the Y-shaped network that my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq HS2 Ltd proposed in the Command Paper or is that Khan), will hold the Government to account on their being abandoned for an alternative structure? transport pledges in the coalition agreement and continue to advocate the causes that he advanced while in Will the Minister outline the time scale that the government. Government envisage for the commencement of the construction of the first part of the network? My I also pay tribute to my noble Friend Lord Adonis, party’s plans were predicated on connectivity with Crossrail who was one of the most visionary Secretaries of State and Heathrow Express, with an interchange station at for Transport that Britain has had in the past 60 years, Old Oak Common and fast links to Heathrow airport, with a powerful commitment to the role of a revived Canary Wharf and beyond. The proposed connectivity railway network in boosting economic growth, reducing between Crossrail and HS2 meant that we wanted to greenhouse gas emissions and, through his strategic complete the construction of Crossrail by 2015 and to support for HS2, building the modern transport commence the construction of the London to Birmingham infrastructure that a decent, just society requires. high speed line in 2017. Do the Government agree about the need to link Crossrail with High Speed 2? In the Command Paper published in March by the Are their plans based on the completion of Crossrail previous Government, we sought to avoid some of the in 2015? problems in the consultation process for the first domestic high speed link, from central London to Ashford, by In opposition, the Minister was committed to plans consulting on a single preferred route between Euston for a high speed rail hub at Heathrow airport. Are those and Birmingham, rather than the choice of five routes the Government’s plans now? Does the Minister propose in the first high speed rail consultation process. No to alter the terms of reference or the time scale of Lord route in a project of this significance will be without Mawhinney’s review into the practicality of a high controversy, which is why there must be adequate speed rail station at Heathrow airport? consultation of the affected communities, together with Can the Minister give a pledge that none of the cities consultation on the exceptional hardship scheme for that the previous Government proposed to link through those whose properties may be affected by proximity to the new high speed network will be left behind or left the preferred route. We note that the Government have out? Specifically, does she agree in principle that we slightly extended the period for consultation on the need a network that serves the major northern English hardship scheme until 17 June and have introduced a cities? Does she plan to begin talks with the Scottish shadow scheme for immediate introduction. We would Government over possible network extension to Scotland support both those measures. in due course? There has been strong support from rail passengers, Has the Minister’s Department begun work on preparing business and local government in the cities covered by the hybrid Bill that would need to be presented to the proposed new high speed rail network, because they Parliament to make the new network a reality in this recognise the real benefits that high speed rail will bring Parliament? Will she give a pledge today that the to their cities. For example, journey times from London Government will commit to the long-term investment to Birmingham will come down to 49 minutes, and required to make the project a success? those from Leeds to Canary Wharf will come down to The high speed rail project is of genuine national 90 minutes. Even with regard to the first part of the significance, and the Opposition will not play petty or network, my constituents in Glasgow would immediately partisan politics with it. I hope that we will be able to benefit, with a reduction in the journey time from work across the House to secure a rail link worthy of a Glasgow to Euston to about 3 hours 30 minutes. That great country entering the 21st century. 17WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 18WH

10.32 am as rapidly as possible towards the creation of a national network that connects to the rest of Europe via the The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs channel tunnel. Theresa Villiers): It is a pleasure to serve under your In opposition, both coalition partners emphasised chairmanship, Mr. Betts. I join others in congratulating the importance of taking high-speed rail to Scotland. It the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark is clear in the devolution settlement that the Scottish Lazarowicz) on securing a debate on this important Government are responsible for rail infrastructure north topic. For many of the reasons that he so articulately set of the border. Delivering cross-border high-speed rail out in opening the debate, the issue is significant for the services and a cross-border high-speed rail line would future of our transport system, our economy and our therefore obviously require close co-operation and careful environment, joint working between Holyrood and Westminster on a I can assure hon. Members that high-speed rail plays range of issues, including, of course, funding. That is a core role in the new Government’s vision for the why, in my role in opposition, I visited Scotland for future of travel in the United Kingdom. I am therefore constructive talks with John Swinney on how that grateful for the strong support that has been displayed co-operation might go forward. There are extensive and across the parties in the debate, and particularly by the close contacts between the Department for Transport new shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Glasgow and its counterparts in Scotland. The Secretary of State North East (Mr Bain). That support has been reflected also looks forward to working with his Scottish counterpart in many speeches this morning, and I welcome the in developing a high-speed rail strategy that incorporates contributions from not only the hon. Member for Scotland. Edinburgh North and Leith, but from the hon. Member Issues relating to the timetable were at the heart of for Leicester South (Sir Peter Soulsby), my hon. Friend the questions from the hon. Member for Edinburgh the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) and the hon. North and Leith. The Secretary of State is considering Members for Solihull (Lorely Burt) and for Carmarthen the timetable set out by HS2 Ltd. He is also considering East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). I shall address a questions relating to the integration of Heathrow into number of the issues that they raised. As well as supporting the high-speed rail network, which I will come to in due high-speed rail, my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury course. He will report to Parliament in due course on reflected on some of the issues for local communities the timetable and on how things will be taken forward. that might be affected once a route is chosen. I will However, the intention is to go forward with the consultation come to that later. as promptly as possible, after that statement to Parliament. The Conservatives championed high-speed rail in The Government intend to present a hybrid Bill opposition. We transformed debate on the issue in during this Parliament. We also intend to start enabling October 2008, when we pledged to start the long process work by 2015. That is a somewhat more aggressive of building a national network. At the time, the Labour timetable than that set by the previous Government, but Government had dismissed high-speed rail as an option, we are determined—the hon. Member for Edinburgh and their 30-year strategy for the railways contained no North and Leith questioned me on this—to take the place for it. Nevertheless, I very much welcome the process forward promptly. Further work is already under change of heart that occurred after our announcement way on lines beyond Birmingham. We will also continue and with the appointment of Lord Adonis. I echo the to assess the appropriate delivery vehicles. comments of the hon. Member for Glasgow North East in welcoming and paying tribute to the work that Lord Mark Lazarowicz: I thank the Minister for her answers Adonis did on the issue. so far, but may I be clear about one point? She said that she envisaged work starting in 2015, but what kind of The change of heart from the previous Government work does she mean? Such work would be welcome, but signalled the emergence of a broader cross-party consensus 2015 is quite soon, so perhaps she will elucidate. on the principle that high-speed rail is essential for Britain’s transport system. The new Government’s support Mrs Villiers: As I said, the intention is for enabling for high-speed rail was clearly and explicitly included in work to start in 2015. Given that there will be a detailed the coalition agreement. Our programme for government and expansive consultation process before decisions are includes the creation of a high-speed rail network. Our made on a route, it would not be appropriate or realistic ambition is the creation of a genuinely national high-speed for me to say exactly what type of work we would network, although we recognise that that will have to be intend to start by 2015 and in what locations. achieved in phases over a number of years. However, in answer to the questions about that national network, let Sir Peter Soulsby: The Minister has talked about a me say that a genuinely national network of course route going beyond Birmingham, and about Scotland. embraces destinations in the east midlands, Scotland Do the Government remain committed to the Y-shaped and Wales—the areas that have been specifically highlighted link that was part of the previous Government’s proposals? this morning. Mrs Villiers: The previous Government talked about Let me take this opportunity to emphasise that the a line north of Birmingham, but had no clear commitment. Government’s ambitions for high-speed rail do not stop It was the Conservatives who championed a national at Birmingham. Although the previous Administration network that would bring the benefits of high-speed rail had a change of heart on high-speed rail, their focus to a wider range of areas than was envisaged in the core was still just on detailed plans for a route to Birmingham. part of the previous Government’s proposals. It is manifestly clear that we will not reap the full The hon. Gentleman also mentioned fares, and it is benefits of high-speed rail unless we go much further important that the high-speed rail line should be affordable than the west midlands, important though a link to the for ordinary families. The analysis done by the Conservative west midlands obviously is. We want to make progress party in opposition and by HS2 Ltd under the previous 19WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 20WH

[Mrs Villiers] which will be felt far more widely than in the destinations directly served by new lines and services. I believe that it Government makes it clear that the line will be affordable will provide valuable help in addressing long-standing and deliverable with a contribution from future fares prosperity differences between the south-east and the revenue, even with fares that are reasonable and broadly rest of the country, and thus create a more stable and in line with existing levels on existing services. We can balanced economy. deliver the line without necessarily assuming that the To return to some of the issues raised by the hon. fares will be unreasonable and out of the reach of Member for Leicester South, of course it is vital, in ordinary families. parallel with taking high-speed rail forward, to continue a programme of work on upgrading and improving the Sir Peter Soulsby: I thank the Minister for her response existing rail network. on fares, but she did not respond to my question about the Y-shaped link. I am interested in the link not north Sir Peter Soulsby: On that point, I would be very but east of Birmingham, serving the east midlands, grateful if the Minister gave way again. south Yorkshire and, of course, the north-east. Mrs Villiers: I would rather make a little progress. I Mrs Villiers: As I have made clear, our ambition is a have been very generous in giving way, so I will proceed national network, and we believe that it is vital to make with my remarks for a moment. progress promptly and to ensure that we achieve the We all acknowledge that there is a downside to the benefits of high-speed rail as widely as possible. We proposals—the impact on the environment of the localities have also made it clear that merely going to Birmingham through which new lines could go. As my hon. Friend is not enough. We need to ensure that other parts of the the Member for Banbury explained, hon. Members country share in the benefits of high-speed rail. We have understandable concerns about the potential impact shall publish details of the timetable in due course. of high-speed rail on their constituents. The Government of course recognise the gravity of those concerns. There Greg Mulholland: I welcome the Minister to her new will be a detailed and inclusive process before final job. She is aware that I have been heavily involved in the decisions are made about our approach to high-speed lobbying campaign for a direct high-speed link to Yorkshire, rail overall, and the route it should follow. I am happy working with you, Mr Betts, and with the hon. Member to engage with colleagues and hon. Members during the for Shipley (Philip Davies), in a cross-party campaign process. It goes without saying that reducing and mitigating with the Yorkshire Post—its “Fast Track to Yorkshire” the local environmental impact of high-speed rail will campaign. The Y shape is not the only way to create a always be a high priority for the Government in advancing direct link to Yorkshire and the important cities of the project. It will inform our decisions on the selection Sheffield and Leeds, which are the economic hubs of of the route. their areas. The High Speed North proposal merits I am happy to take on board my hon. Friend’s ideas further consideration. May we be clear, and have a on benefiting the communities that may be subject to commitment that the Government will, when the relevant the environmental impact of high-speed rail lines. Ideas phase happens, create a direct link to Yorkshire—not a are already under discussion about the possibility of link via Manchester, which does not make sense? burying power lines, and the new Government’s commitment to high-speed rail has already brought Mrs Villiers: I have made it clear that the ambition is about a benefit, because it has enabled us to say with to create a national network, and it is of course vital confidence that we strongly oppose a third runway at that the north of England, Manchester and Yorkshire Heathrow. The fact that it will not go ahead provides should be included in that network. In due course, significant benefits for some communities that may be decisions will be taken about the exact route to be affected by high-speed rail, because there will not be the selected. However, as I have emphasised, there is a long massive uplift in aircraft noise to which many of them process to be undertaken before final decisions are might have been subjected had the election gone a made on the route for new high-speed rail lines. different way and if a Labour Government had been The case for high-speed rail is undeniable. It has the elected and proceeded with their plans. As to existing potential to make a huge contribution to the long-term transport corridors, in assessing the route, the potential prosperity of the country and the efficiency of its benefits of their use will be fully considered. However, transport system, and it can play a crucial role in that approach is not a panacea. It cannot provide the achieving the goal of a lower-carbon economy. In the answer in all cases, but it is worth considering. next 20 to 30 years, key inter-urban routes are likely to We made it plain before the election that we reserved become increasingly congested, with negative consequences our position on the route that HS2 has recommended. for our economy and quality of life. High-speed rail The process of formal consultation on the hybrid Bill could provide a massive uplift in capacity, as well as will provide extensive opportunities for people to make dramatically reduced journey times. their voice heard and have their point of view properly We have been discussing the areas to be served directly and fairly considered before a route is finalised. We also by high-speed rail, but we must not lose sight of the fact recognise that concerns in that respect are not confined that a high-speed network also relieves pressure and to fears about the future. In some places, the impact is overcrowding on existing railways. It allows more space being felt today in the instability of local property for commuting and freight services, so it produces significant markets. benefits for passengers and the economy even in areas A key goal for the new Government is to press ahead that are not directly served by a line or station. It will expeditiously, taking on board the continuing consultation, create huge benefits in growth, regeneration and jobs, with the finalising of arrangements for an exceptional 21WH High Speed Rail9 JUNE 2010 High Speed Rail 22WH hardship scheme, so that we can swiftly and equitably We believe also that it is essential to have a direct link give assistance to those who most need it. The consultation between the new domestic line and existing international is due to end in a week, and we shall look with great services on HS1, and we have asked HS2 Ltd urgently care at the respondents’ suggestions in deciding how to to assess the best way to deliver that. It would be a proceed. mistake to consider rail only in relation to domestic aviation when it is clearly a viable alternative for travelling As part of the work that we are doing to reconsider to a number of important near-European destinations and review the HS2 proposals on the route, we need to such as Brussels, Paris, Amsterdam and Rotterdam. find the right option for connecting Heathrow to the new network. As we made clear in opposition, we In conclusion— believe that it is vital to integrate the country’s only major long-haul hub airport to the high-speed rail Sir Peter Soulsby: Will the Minister give way? network that we propose to build. Lord Mawhinney was asked by the previous Government to assess the Mrs Villiers: I am sorry, but I am going to conclude. alternatives. His review was established against the There is a huge task ahead of us as we contemplate background of Labour’s policy of supporting a third delivering an infrastructure project as big as any since runway at Heathrow. the 19th century, when the Victorians revolutionised our economy and our society with the nation’s first In answer to the question asked by the hon. Member railway network. It is worth remembering that Britain’s for Glasgow North East, one of the first acts of the new first, and so far only, 68 miles of high-speed track owed Secretary of State was to agree with Lord Mawhinney much to the unlikely combination of John Prescott and an amendment to his remit, to reflect the approach of Michael Heseltine. As we press forward with realising the coalition. The new Government strongly oppose a this great ambition, I hope that we can continue to new runway at Heathrow, as the Prime Minister confirmed count on cross-party support. and reiterated in one of his first actions on taking office. Heathrow needs to be better, not bigger. A key part of Sir Peter Soulsby: Will the Minister give way? our programme for improving it is to integrate the airport into the proposed new high-speed rail network. Mrs Villiers: I have given way on a number of occasions. That would improve public transport links to the airport, I am now going to conclude. and help to relieve the problems with air quality and congestion in the area by encouraging people to switch Sir Peter Soulsby rose— from road to rail when travelling to Heathrow. Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Order. The Minister is In response to questions on the subject, we are obviously indicating that she will not give way. carefully considering whether high-speed rail could be integrated with Crossrail. As a number of colleagues Mrs Villiers: I have no doubt that there will be said, integrating Heathrow should also facilitate a major difficult times ahead, not least in relation to decisions shift from air to rail. Experience in Europe shows that about the route and how we mitigate and reduce its high-speed rail provides an attractive alternative to impact on surrounding communities and the landscape. short-haul flights. For example, Air France has completely However, I firmly believe that future generations will stopped flights between Paris and Brussels, choosing thank us for displaying determination and persistence instead to charter carriages on the TGV rail link. in delivering this crucial upgrade to our transport system. Maximising the scope for switching from air to rail is We need to inject some of the long-term thinking that an important goal in environmental terms, as high-speed transport policy has so often lacked in the past. The trains emit significantly less carbon than aviation. Indeed, new Government are determined to rise to that challenge the gap between the train and the plane is likely to and deliver the high-speed vision for Britain’s rail widen as we proceed with the vital task of cleaning up network—one that could have a transformative impact our electricity generation sources. A further benefit of on our transport system, our economy and our quality the air-to-rail switch would be to free up space at of life. Heathrow by providing an alternative to the thousands of short-haul flights going in and out of the airport. 10.53 am That is how we plan to relieve capacity pressure. Sitting suspended. 23WH 9 JUNE 2010 Transport (South Devon) 24WH

Transport (South Devon) country development plan. By 1959, a public inquiry had determined the actual line of the proposed road, but then Devon county council sought to change the 11 am proposed line and suggested an alternative route. In Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): There are many 1974, a revised three-lane dualled carriageway plan was reasons why the people of south Devon, and of Torbay suggested by the outgoing Devon county council. By in particular, need better transport links. Coach, rail, 1976, having completed stage 1 of the Torbay ring road, sea, cycle and road vehicle transport all suffer from the highways authority made a submission to the under-investment. Our main transport link with the Department for Transport for the trunking of the A380 motorway network is the A380, which is dualled between road in its entirety. Telegraph Hill and the Penn inn Roundabout, and is In 1976, at the end of another public consultation, then single lane between Newton Abbot and Torbay. Devon county council announced its preferred route. In Torbay is the 40th largest urban conurbation in the 1981-82, the county council submitted its preferred country, and the only settlement of such a size with a route to the Department for Transport, with an application single carriageway link road to the trunk road system. for 100% grant aid funding. In 1987, a public exhibition The resident population increases by 50% during the was held, following which an updated submission for summer peak with the influx of holidaymakers. Many grant aid was made together with a revised submission arrive in the area frustrated and angry as their inward for the trunking of the A380 from Exeter through to journey is marred by congestion and delay between Torquay. Newton Abbot and Torbay, and many leave early as a In 1989, a Government White Paper entitled “Roads result. Torbay relies heavily on tourism for its livelihood for Prosperity”included the trunking of the A380 between and future prosperity. Its economy is one of the most Exeter and Torquay together with the proposed £26 million difficult in the country, with the widest gulf between scheme to dual a new two-lane carriageway. In 1990, a average earnings and house prices and some of the traffic survey on best value and an audit had to be worst wards in the country in relation to indices of carried out before the proposed scheme could go forward social deprivation. A recent shocking statistic is that to draft order stage. In 1994, another national report, 40% of Torbay’s children are now brought up in households entitled “Trunk Roads in England Review”, was issued living below the official poverty line. Reviving Torbay’s by the Department for Transport. It still included a economy, therefore, needs to be at the centre of everything proposed Kingskerswell bypass as a priority scheme in that the Government and the local authority do. the national list. Research has shown that our biggest single drawback In 1995, the Government announced that they would is our lack of connectivity, which is a serious disincentive not be able to keep their commitment to the trunk road to inward investment and a blight on regeneration. The programme, and in a report entitled “Managing the south Devon link road, or Kingskerswell bypass, is vital Trunk Road Programme” the A380 was dropped from to overcoming that problem. It will overcome many the priority list and transferred to the longer term local problems of congestion, pollution and rat-running, programme for the trunking of roads. In 1996, the thus creating a more sustainable quality of environment. Government de-trunked the A380 and transferred Torbay council and Devon county council have worked responsibility to Devon county council. In 1997, Labour together to promote the scheme, and have so far committed won the general election, all road building was put on some £6 million to achieve the necessary consents and hold and it was decreed that existing infrastructure had funding. Both councils see the road as one of their to be exhausted before a new road could be considered. highest priorities. The scheme is ready to proceed as Two years later, the no-roads policy statement was soon as the funding is made available by the Department reversed with an announcement by the then Deputy for Transport: there is a valid planning consent, the Prime Minister. land acquisition and side-road orders have been served, There have been at least three significant historical and a public inquiry was held in October 2009 to hear changes determining the decision-making process and objections. The inspectors’ report should have been, or the financing of roads since then. There have also been will shortly be, presented to the Minister for confirmation. a couple of self-inflicted delays resulting from local The two councils have put the project out to tender government reorganisation: in 2003, Torbay left Devon and agreed on one bidder who has met all the quality to become a unitary authority, and in 2005 Torbay criteria and, importantly, is within budget. Subject to voted to have an elected mayor. None the less, most of funding and confirmation of orders, we are ready the delay has been well beyond our local control. The to start in the autumn. The cost of the scheme is road should have been built by now and should be £130 million, and the first spend of £8 million is anticipated playing its part as our route out of recession. At worst, in 2010-11 in accordance with the regional funding it should be under construction, with the prospect allocation. The road remains a top priority in the region. locally of better times ahead; but it is not and now we The application for full funding approval has been hear there may be yet another review. Will my hon. submitted to the DFT, and discussions with officials Friend the Minister tell me how many projects are being indicate there are no technical shortcomings in the reviewed and what their total value is? How much will submission. Perhaps the Minister can confirm that. the Department want to cut from this total, and will The history of the project has been fraught with priority be given to schemes that are more advanced? delays and can be traced back to the early 1950s—to well before I was born. I cannot imagine any area the Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I should size of Torbay that has had to wait as long for a proper like to add my support to this scheme, because the road link to the country’s main road network. In 1951-52, a in question, the A380, passes through my constituency dualled carriageway was first included in the Devon of Newton Abbot. Indeed, Kingskerswell bypass is in 25WH Transport (South Devon)9 JUNE 2010 Transport (South Devon) 26WH my constituency. Having this road would significantly the end of the line and does not even have a railway line. improve the lives of my constituents in economic terms. Road transport is therefore particularly important in Moreover, it is a key road and a key artery between getting from Brixham, Paignton and Torquay to the Torbay hospital and my constituency, and many of the rest of the country. plans the primary care trust has made are predicated on I should also mention the poor coach services from the existence of that bypass. Torbay to the main centres of population. The journey times are off-putting and often, the slowest part of any Mr Sanders: The hon. Lady makes a very powerful coach journey is the first or last seven miles between point on behalf of her constituents and those across Torbay and the dual carriageway at Newton Abbot. In south Devon. the past, we have enjoyed ferry services between south Let me turn to other forms of transport that impact Devon and the Channel Islands, and beyond. Even our on south Devon’s economy and quality of life. Three cyclists in Torbay are poorly served, its having fewer years ago, the last Labour Government promised an miles of cycle lanes than most urban areas of a similar additional 1,300 carriages across the country, of which size. 647 have already been brought in or are on order. The We have been waiting for six decades to enjoy the remainder have now been put on ice, after the Department transport links that the rest of the country takes for for Transport was told to slash £683 million from its granted. My constituency records the lowest household budget as part of a raft of in-year savings totalling incomes and highest household debt in the United £6.2 billion. Of the 1,300 carriages, First Great Western Kingdom. We have been, and remain, the unemployment was due to receive 52, but only 12 of those were destined blackspot of the south-west region. for services in the south-west. Their future was threatened Better transport links are our road to recovery. Two when the Transport Secretary said that each project Select Committee reports—the Communities and Local must be rigorously re-assessed to ensure that it offers Government Committee report on seaside resorts, and value for money for taxpayers. Under the previous the Culture, Media and Sport Committee report on Government, the plans for new carriages had been tourism—support that view. Both concluded that better delayed and mired in review following the announcement transport links are essential if such seaside areas are to of the electrification of the main line between London improve their economic well-being. As for those who and Swansea. There is uncertainty over the allocation oppose such road improvements, I simply ask them why of new rolling stock. What is the status of the carriages there are no campaign groups asking for the removal of promised to First Great Western in the south-west, and existing bypasses. where should representations be made to argue the case in favour of providing extra rolling stock? What is the There is a huge opportunity here for the new Government Government’s overall strategy for railways in the south-west, to demonstrate their commitment to the south-west and do they still consider Torquay and Paignton to be region with immediate delivery of a fantastic scheme mainline train stations? that would be a huge credit to all involved, and would fundamentally regenerate Torbay and the surrounding Finally on rail, the introduction of fast train services area for years to come. There is political unity on this from Paddington to Paignton via Westbury rather than issue among all parties in south Devon: Torbay council, Bristol is good, but will more services be forthcoming? Devon county council, Teignbridge council, and South Hams district council. All the key players, including Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con): I congratulate small and larger businesses, know that this project is my hon. Friend on securing this debate and I am critical to our future success, be it the tourism industry, grateful to him for giving way, because in fact there are manufacturing or services. three constituencies that would benefit very greatly In my 13 years as a Member of Parliament, I have from this proposal. My own constituency, which covers observed business after business trying to grow locally, Brixham and much of Paignton, lies downstream from but in order to expand they have had to leave the area, his, at the other end of the A380, and as he has citing the lack of transport links as the reason. Inward mentioned we have very high levels of deprivation in investors who are prepared to invest in jobs and in our constituencies. improving the area are being put off by the very real I would also like my hon. Friend the Minister to barrier that is the final seven miles into my constituency. consider the great problem that we have with housing. It was in 1951-52 that people started to talk about Time and again, the objection made to further housing this project, for which there were plans by the end of development in our area is that there is insufficient that decade. Surely we will not have to wait another infrastructure to support it. The roads have reached decade for another decision that will allow the project complete gridlock. Given that lack of adequate transport to go ahead. is one of the greatest obstacles to reconstruction and investment, what mechanism is being used to assess which projects should receive funding, and are these 11.13 am very important factors of reconstruction and investment The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport being taken into account? (Norman Baker): I start by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) on securing Mr Sanders: I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution, a debate on the important topic of transport in the and I am sure the Minister will respond to that very south Devon area. I am aware that he has campaigned important question. She is absolutely right. I often tirelessly for transport improvements in Torbay and the think of my constituency as being the “end-of-the-line” surrounding area since his election to Parliament in town, but the Brixham area of her constituency, which I 1997. If I may make a partisan point, it is good to see think is the largest urban area in Totnes, is very much him back in the House. 27WH Transport (South Devon)9 JUNE 2010 Transport (South Devon) 28WH

[Norman Baker] Anne Marie Morris: Although speed is clearly crucial for my constituents, through whose area this railway I also very much welcome the hon. Members for passes as it runs down the coast, we absolutely need this Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) and for Totnes railway for tourism. There has been a lot of concern in (Dr Wollaston) to their places in this House. I note that the constituency that the money to support the line, all three Members spoke with one voice today, which I which I know is one of the most expensive lines in the suppose is a demonstration of coalition politics in country to maintain, will not be forthcoming. I would action. be grateful if the Minister considered the issue of tourism, and therefore the impact on the local economy, when he As the coalition agreement makes clear, we believe makes decisions about money being invested in that that a modern transport infrastructure is important for particular railway line. a dynamic and entrepreneurial economy.We are determined to make the transport sector greener and more sustainable, with tougher emissions standards and support for new Norman Baker: I should say that decisions on rail transport technologies. The coalition agreement also investment are not for me to make in my particular makes clear that tackling climate change is one of the portfolio. However, I can say that the Government are biggest challenges that we face and that a wide range of entirely seized of the importance of tourism to the levers will need to be used to cut carbon emissions. south-west and that that factor will be taken into account Transport policy will clearly have a major role to play, in making any decisions about transport infrastructure given that carbon emissions from transport are still and any other issues relating to Government investment. rising. The new train service that I referred to will allow With that in mind, the Department for Transport is business passengers to travel from London and do a full committed to reforming how decisions are made on day’s business in Torbay, as well as cater for people on which transport schemes to prioritise around the country, holiday who prefer not to change trains, which was the not least so that the benefits of low-carbon proposals point that the hon. Member for Newton Abbot made. are fully recognised. Of course, particularly given the current fiscal constraints, we need to ensure that any Rolling stock was also raised by my hon. Friend the new transport infrastructure is affordable and offers Member for Torbay. As far as that is concerned, the value for money. Those two issues—the reform of how Department for Transport has recently signed a deed of decisions are made and the review of all planned amendment with First Great Western. That ensures that Government expenditure—mean that today I will not there will be ongoing funding for 30 vehicles that would be able to be as helpful to my hon. Friend as I would otherwise cease to be funded by First Great Western liketobe. itself. I hope that he will accept that that is good news for the rolling stock for the area. I turn specifically to the issues affecting south Devon. As my hon. Friend will know, the area is currently The Government want to see rail prosper and we served by two main roads running south-west from certainly value the rail links to the south-west. We do Exeter: the A38, for which the Highways Agency is not have individual strategies for each part of the country, mainly responsible, and the A380, which is the responsibility but the strategy for the network as a whole is set out in of Devon county council. The area is also served by the the Department for Transport’s high level output railway line that he referred to, which runs between specification document. It is focused on improvements Exeter, Newton Abbot and Paignton, and between Newton in safety and performance, and, crucially, on providing Abbot and Plymouth. Both the lines to Paignton and more capacity. Plymouth have daily services running to London, Bristol, We made it clear in the coalition agreement that we the midlands and the north, as well as local services to will grant longer rail franchises, giving train operators Exeter and beyond, which also stop at a number of more incentive to invest in better services, rolling stock, other smaller stations. stations and perhaps even enhancements to the network. My hon. Friend asked me about the status of Torquay We want a better deal for passengers, with fair pricing and Paignton rail stations. The Department for Transport for rail travel and the rail regulator as a powerful does not classify stations as “mainline” or otherwise. passenger champion. We also want to see Network Rail However, Network Rail classes both Torquay and Paignton being made more accountable to its customers, both the as category C stations—that is, they are important train companies and—frankly—ultimately the public at feeder stations—and further definition is included in large. the station champions’ “Better Rail Stations” report. Given the upcoming spending review, we are unable to commit today to any further immediate improvements I know that my hon. Friend has been very active in to rail services elsewhere in the south Devon area. campaigning for more through trains between Torbay However, we will monitor the current usage of rail and London Paddington, and I am delighted to confirm services and re-evaluate them in the light of the emerging that, from December 2010, one additional through service financial situation. each way will be provided on that route. The current service provides for a 7.30 am train to arrive at Exeter at My hon. Friend is also concerned about the road 10.12 am. The new service will provide an earlier fast network. I acknowledge the importance that he and train service to Exeter and Torbay, with arrival at others attach to the A380 Kingskerswell bypass scheme, Exeter at 9.30 am and at Paignton at 10.6 am. The aim also known as the south Devon link road, and his of this new early train service is to strengthen business strong view that it is key to supporting the regeneration links between the west country and London. It will also of Torbay and the surrounding area. I also note the help to boost tourism, which I know is an issue that my scheme’s long history; it goes back to 1951, which is, I hon. Friend takes very seriously indeed. think, before either of us was born. 29WH Transport (South Devon)9 JUNE 2010 Transport (South Devon) 30WH

The scheme’s promoters—Devon and Torbay county mentioned, the Government have committed in the councils, with the support of the other councils to coalition agreement to review how decisions are made which hon. Members have referred—have made the on which transport projects will be prioritised. We are case for the bypass to the Department. As my hon. at the start of that process. Until that is complete and Friend acknowledged, progress is well advanced. The the spending review is concluded, we will not be making view expressed is that the A380 is an important link to any funding approval decisions. I made that point clear south Devon and that the congestion between Penn Inn in a recent letter to Nick Bye, mayor of Torbay, who and Kerswell Gardens affects the business and commercial wrote to me about the Kingskerswell bypass. needs of Torbay throughout the year, as well as the The hon. Member for Totnes asked how many projects tourist trade in summer. are being reviewed and what their total value is. The I understand that the promoters have developed the Government are reviewing all funding approvals made scheme in recent years on the strength of the priority by the previous Government from 1 January 2010, and given to it by the previous Government within their we hope to conclude that review soon. Additionally, all regional funding allocation process. However, any new schemes granted conditional approval or programme Government will naturally have their own views on entry by the previous Government will be reviewed as which major schemes should be supported by Government part of the spending review. There are 42 such schemes, funding, and I am afraid that we will need to consider and the total requested Department for Transport the scheme in the light of the tough spending review to contribution is about £1.5 billion. However, those schemes come. After the public inquiry in July 2009, as my hon. will not necessarily be given priority over schemes that Friend knows, an inspector’s report on the scheme have not received any previous funding approval. Pending orders was submitted to the Secretary of State for a further discussions with our Treasury colleagues, we are decision. Given the current uncertainty about funding, not in a position to say how much the Department will we must consider such decisions carefully and will be want to cut from the total. That is what the spending making a statement on the subject shortly. review is for. However, no one should assume that It should also be acknowledged that considerable schemes prioritised under the previous Government’s opposition exists alongside the local and regional support regional funding allocation process will be funded to for the scheme, as my hon. Friend acknowledged. I am the previous published levels. sure that he is aware that several well-organised campaign Finally, in response to my hon. Friend’s question groups have expressed opposition, including the Campaign about prioritising schemes that are more advanced, as is for Better Transport, the Campaign to Protect Rural this particular road scheme, I am afraid that, for the England and the Kingskerswell Alliance, which is made reasons that I have given, the Department can offer no up of residents of Newton Abbot and Kingskerswell. guarantees. However, I can confirm that priority will be Those groups believe that Devon and Torbay should be given to projects that align with the Government’s priorities considering more sustainable alternatives that have less and are affordable. impact on the environment. I understand fully my hon. Friend’s desire for a positive decision on the funding for the Kingskerswell Mr Sanders: Can my hon. Friend mention one road- bypass, not least because of how much time has passed building scheme that has had no objections at all? since 1951. However, the sad fact is that many other local authorities around the country are in a similar Norman Baker: I am not aware of any, but it is only position, wondering what the future holds for their fair in a debate of this nature to reflect the comments planned transport schemes. I hope that he will acknowledge both for and against the scheme received by the Department, that the Government need to consider all funding as I hope I am doing. There are strong views on the commitments carefully. scheme, and it is important to listen to both sides of the As with all other major local transport schemes, the argument, as I am sure my hon. Friend, as a fair man, Department can offer no particular assurances at this would acknowledge. point regarding future funding, but I give my hon. In addition to those issues, we must also consider the Friend my personal assurance that, as part of our wider wider funding position and what it means for the spending review, I will consider carefully the case for the affordability of a £130 million road scheme. As we are funding of the Kingskerswell bypass and take into all aware, the current fiscal situation means that we account the comments made today by him and hon. must consider carefully future funding decisions on all Members from nearby constituencies. transport schemes across England and Wales. My hon. Friend asked what mechanism is being used 11.24 am to assess which projects should receive funding. As I Sitting suspended. 31WH 9 JUNE 2010 Child Poverty 32WH

Child Poverty from when it was last in office. Successive Governments should hang their heads in shame. Generations of young people have been let down. 4pm My message to the new coalition Government is this: quite simply, we must do better. Abolition of child Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Despite the current poverty in the lifetime of the present Government must economic uncertainty, Britain remains one of the wealthiest be the target. Whatever the economic issues facing the nations on earth. It is therefore to the lasting shame of country, it simply cannot be right in a civilised society successive Governments that our country has one of to have children living in conditions that are deemed to the worst levels of child poverty in the developed world be below the official poverty line. and one of the worst in Europe, with poverty rates worse even than those of the former communist countries I recognise that this is all relative. What is described of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania—a point I have already as poverty in the UK is not the poverty that can be made in an intervention on the Prime Minister. found in third-world countries or in the slums of some overseas cities, where obscene wealth and grinding poverty According to the charity Barnardo’s, in the UK there are physically close to each other but worlds apart in are 2.8 million children living in poverty before housing terms of quality of life and life expectancy. costs are taken into account, which I gather is the previous Government’s preferred measure. However, That said, I was deeply shocked by a poster I saw in a Barnardo’s tells me that that figure soars to 3.9 million church in Colchester last month. It prompted me to after housing costs are taken into account, according to table early-day motion 39, which states: the 2007-08 “Households Below Average Income” report, “That this House is deeply concerned at the content of posters published last year by the Department for Work and issued by The Children’s Society and displayed on church premises which state ‘Avital project that is helping feed, clothe and assist in Pensions. I was shocked by the following disturbing finding destitute children somewhere safe to live will close on 30th extract from the “Hard Times” report published by September due to a lack of funds; when it does, hundreds of Save the Children in 2006: poverty-stricken families will be left to fend for themselves’; and “One third of British children are forced to go without at least calls on the Government to hold urgent talks with The Children’s one of the things they need, such as three meals a day or adequate Society to avoid the closure.” clothing.” And this is Britain in the second decade of the third What should the new Government do now? Well, millennium. here is one thought that Barnardo’s has put to me: Much was expected of new Labour in tackling child “The poorest families in the UK are struggling during the poverty. I do not doubt for a minute that it had sincere recent economic crisis and are very likely to bear the brunt of intentions, but the stark reality is that it failed, and forthcoming spending cuts. Barnardo’s proposes pragmatic, cost- failed big-time. I cannot speak of child poverty at first effective solutions to redistribute money to the poorest families hand. I grew up in a family environment in which I did without the Government spending a single penny extra.” not want for food, clothing or housing. My wife and I Save the Children told me: were able to provide for our four children. I am now a “It makes financial sense to end child poverty—the Joseph grandfather and grateful that my two grandsons and my Rowntree Foundation estimates it costs the taxpayer £25 billion a infant granddaughter do not experience the child poverty year.” that so many children experience. However, I have been Putting to one side the obvious reasons why a civilised involved in political life in my home town for 40 years society should not tolerate child poverty, Save the Children or so, and have experience of working on a local newspaper; then makes the financial case for ending it: and as every MP can vouch through work in his or her “In the long-term, huge amounts would be saved from not advice bureau, we know child poverty when we see it. having to pick up the pieces of child poverty and associated social As word spread that I had secured the debate, I ills.” received considerable background briefing from different I therefore invite the Minister to have a meeting with organisations concerned with tackling child poverty. Save the Children, Barnardo’s and the other charities That so many exist is proof of the seriousness of the that do so much work to help children, to discuss what situation. I cannot possibly in 15 minutes do justice to needs to be done. Working together, as a big coalition of what they told me, but I hope I will be able to convey people with shared interests, makes sense. It would the importance of their concerns. I place on the record make further sense if there were a permanent standing my thanks to those that have contacted me: Barnardo’s, committee, for example, involving Government and Save the Children, the Children’s Society, the National those organisations, to help with formulating policies Childminding Association and the Child Poverty Action and strategies, in the spirit of joined-up government Group. across all Departments. I also seek a pledge from the The Children’s Society told me about the good childhood Minister this afternoon that there will be no delay and inquiry, the report of which was published last year. I no dilution of the provisions set out in the Child Poverty shall quote one telling comment from its briefing to me: Act 2010, including measures on the poverty reduction “One of the most striking things about the evidence received target and setting up the child poverty commission, from children was how frequently they mentioned their basic which are a matter of urgency. needs. Over 5,000 children filled in postcards about their lives and the three topics they talked most about were ‘friends’, ‘family’ Child poverty issues are usually even worse for households and what was termed their ‘material needs’. with one or more children with a disability, and for Their comments on this subject were mostly about the importance single-parent families. Today, I shall combine strong of having a home, a bed, clothes, warmth, food and water. criticism primarily of the last Labour Government with Interestingly, far more children talked about material ‘needs’ such a reminder to the Conservative party that the situation as these than mentioned material ‘wants’ such as money and has not arisen in the past 13 years but was inherited possessions.” 33WH Child Poverty9 JUNE 2010 Child Poverty 34WH

I look at life as though it is a jigsaw—lots of pieces and that the missionary zeal for tackling inequalities in need to come together to complete the picture. It is not society—and not only child poverty—is something they enough to talk in isolation about education, health, do not want to get involved in. employment and so on. We must look at the whole As a penultimate point, I pay tribute to the late picture, and if any of the pieces are missing, which Professor Peter Townsend, the joint founder of the tragically is the case for children living in poverty, that Child Poverty Action Group, whose work over more young individual will struggle throughout their life, than 40 years did so much to highlight the plight of with the guarantee that their life chances will be considerably children in this country. I knew him when he was at the less than those for a child from a household that is not university of Essex; from its inception in 1964, he was lacking in the necessities of life; and they will have a one of its first professors. Indeed, for a time he lived in shorter life expectancy as well. Why should nearly 4 million the same part of Colchester as me. A tribute to him was children be so grossly disadvantaged? It is not their published in June last year by the university of Bristol, fault. where his name lives on in the Townsend Centre for As we know with a jigsaw, the first pieces that need to International Poverty Research. That tribute included be put in place are the corners and the edges. For our this observation: children, the corners and the edges of their jigsaw of life “He had brief hopes when New Labour arrived, and especially are a decent home. Successive Governments have also after Tony Blair pledged to eliminate child poverty in 1999. In the failed to deliver that over the past 25 years, with the end, however, he was left bitterly disillusioned”. ending of the building of council houses for families. In conclusion, I trust that all Members will accept an Oh for the return of the days when local councils built open invitation from the Child Poverty Action Group family houses—houses fit for purpose, built to Parker to attend the launch of the group’s handbook on Tuesday Morris standards—not today’s cramped dwellings with 6 July at 10.30 am in the Jubilee Room. MPs will have paper-thin dividing walls, which in any event are inadequate an opportunity to discuss with folk from CPAG how to in number to deal with the worsening housing crisis. If help end child poverty in every constituency in the land. we addressed the shortage of truly affordable family Surely, ending child poverty is not asking too much of houses to rent by the resumption of the building of the new Government. public housing, as was the ambition of successive Labour and Tory Governments for broadly the middle 50 years Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con): I congratulate of the 20th century, excluding the war years of 1939 to the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate and on 1945, that would help us dramatically on the road to the making so many valid points about the poverty of abolition of child poverty. children. Does he agree that the Government’s commitment to providing an additional 4,000 health visitors through It is interesting that post-war Conservative Governments the Sure Start scheme would be a significant step in the built more council houses than Labour Governments. right direction? Indeed, the Thatcher Government built more council houses than the Blair and Brown Governments combined. Bob Russell: I welcome anything that will help eliminate I contrast the last 13 years with the inspirational Labour child poverty and promote the welfare of children. I Government of Clement Attlee, who in 1945 set about also welcome the inclusion in the coalition Government tackling the housing crisis after six years of war. If it agreement of the pupil premium, which will help children can be done in those circumstances, why can it not be from disadvantaged backgrounds. done today? After all, if new Labour could fund an illegal war in Iraq, then housing British families should 4.15 pm have been affordable. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work As a nation, we would do well to revisit the Education and Pensions (Maria Miller): May I say what a pleasure Act 1944. It was not about education only; it put it is, Mr Betts, to serve under your chairmanship? This forward an holistic approach to the health, welfare and is the first of two debates this week on child poverty and general well-being of the child, of which the universal poverty in general. In securing this debate, the hon. provision of school meals was an important part; its Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) continues with a authors were determined that the child poverty of the subject that has been of interest to him for a number of 1930s should be a thing of the past. It is perhaps an years, and I thank him for giving us the opportunity to indication of Britain’s divided society—the gap between discuss this important matter today. rich and poor has widened since 1997—that even in a relatively prosperous town such as Colchester at least The hon. Gentleman is right that we must do better. two primary schools have breakfast clubs, so that children Poverty is the most important factor in predicting a who would otherwise start the day without a meal have child’s life chances. Effectively tackling the causes of one. poverty and inequality in Britain is at the heart of our coalition Government’s agenda, and I welcome the I hope that my debate will encourage the new coalition opportunity to reiterate to him and the other Members Government not to let their planned cuts in public here today our clear commitment to helping the millions spending further damage the life chances of another of children who still live in poverty. I give the clear and I generation of children. Even in a recession and an era hope unambiguous assurance that there will be no delay of cuts, expecting children from less well-off backgrounds and no dilution in our commitment, and I refer him to to experience a further lowering in their living conditions section 14 of the document issued by the coalition that is simply not acceptable. pledged to end child poverty by 2020. I observe in passing what I consider to be the silence I know that this is an emotive subject. The hon. of the Church on child poverty. I sense that churches Gentleman raised a number of questions and I shall collectively, with notable exceptions, are too comfortable, attempt to cover them in my response; however, if there 35WH Child Poverty9 JUNE 2010 Child Poverty 36WH

[Maria Miller] stalled social mobility, and that is where the pupil premium comes into play. By making some £3,000 is anything that he feels has not been dealt with properly, available to each pupil who falls into that sector, we will perhaps we can discuss it separately. be making a significant financial contribution to schools. Over the past 13 years, we have seen ever more being We will also give schools the autonomy to use that spent on the benefits system, even outstripping inflation, money in the way they think is best. We will end the in an attempt to move people above the poverty threshold. couple penalty in the tax system that jeopardises the The Labour Government were nothing other than well future of too many children, because we know that intentioned; there is no question about what they were stable family life is an important way of addressing trying to achieve, but their policies simply did not work child poverty. and did not deliver what was needed to deal with child We will also introduce wide-ranging welfare reform, poverty. As the hon. Gentleman said, many people felt as was set out in the Gracious Speech, through the work disillusioned as a result. programme, which will be more effective in helping The figures speak for themselves. The previous people into work and so out of poverty. At all points, Government’s approach did not work because they did we will ensure that work pays. All parts of the House not do what the hon. Gentleman has suggested, which now accept that helping people back into work is a is tackling the root causes of poverty. The gap between basic principle of tackling poverty. the richest and the poorest is at its highest since records The hon. Member for Colchester talked about the began. At best, the previous Government’s attempts to importance of a holistic approach, and I could not tackle poverty stalled, despite their spending some agree with him more. We are on the same page of the £85 billion a year on benefits and tax credits. book in that respect. Clearly, such a programme to The simple truth is that there are 800,000 more adults address child poverty needs to work across the board, in poverty now than there were in 1998-99. Instead of which is why the Prime Minister, working in conjunction the number of children in poverty having been reduced, with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for it has increased by 100,000 over the past five years, and Work and Pensions, has announced the establishment 2.8 million children are now living in poverty. The hon. of the Social Justice Cabinet Committee. Such a group Gentleman also spoke about the definition of poverty gives us the opportunity to bring together people from and asked whether it should include housing costs. The across government to tackle these seemingly intractable Prime Minister has asked the right hon. Member for problems. Its one mission will be to consider social Birkenhead (Mr Field) to consider that matter in his justice in this country. independent review, which will report before the end of the year. Bob Russell: The Minister may not know the answer It is clear that the old way is failing. We need a new to this question immediately, but if so, perhaps she can vision, a new approach to tackling poverty and giving find it out for me. Will the organisations directly involved children a better start in life. I am sure that that was one child poverty be part of the arrangement she has just of the hon. Gentleman’s main passions when he first described? came to this place, as it was one of mine. That new approach is what I intend to set out today. Maria Miller: The organisations the hon. Gentleman It is not enough to tackle the symptoms of poverty; mentioned will have a critical role to play in pulling we must tackle the underlying factors that make it a together the strategy on child poverty that we need to seemingly intractable problem. They include entrenched develop by March 2011. With regard to the constitution worklessness and economic dependency, family breakdown, of the Social Justice Cabinet Committee, it is early days educational failure, addiction and debt. Those are the yet. Certainly, I will take the hon. Gentleman’s thoughts drivers of poverty—finance is only one aspect. If we are back to our team and put forward his suggestion, to deal with the persistent poverty and multiple because it has great merit. disadvantages of some of the UK’s most vulnerable The Social Justice Cabinet Committee will consider families, we need to fight poverty in its broadest sense, the causes of poverty and how we can make a difference and I suspect, judging by the feeling that I got from the to the lives of thousands of children. The hon. Gentleman hon. Gentleman’s contribution, that such a view lies mentioned housing—an issue in which he has a passionate behind his call for this debate. interest—and particularly the role of councils in ensuring The hon. Gentleman talked about the importance of that good quality housing is available for families, thus joined-up government, and I could not agree with him giving children the stability and good accommodation more. If we are to take on this complex and multi-faceted that can make such a difference to their lives. A Cabinet problem, we need to ensure that we tackle all the Committee such as the one that will be constituted can different facets of poverty so that we break the cycle of tackle an issue such as that, as part of a holistic strategy disadvantage and deprivation and give all children the for dealing with child poverty. I hope the hon. Gentleman same opportunity to flourish and excel. is reassured that we share his view that that is the only My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard way to make a real difference. Graham) mentioned Sure Start. We have clear coalition Let me turn to how we plan to go forward in practical policies on taking Sure Start back to its roots to increase terms. Like the hon. Gentleman, I have sat in this the effectiveness of its outreach services, and to uphold Chamber many times, hearing Ministers talk in abstract our commitment to early intervention. We know that terms about what they may or may not do, so I should Sure Start has a critical role to play, and we want to like to tell him about some concrete things that we will make it work harder. be doing. We will set up the Social Justice Cabinet We want to ensure that more children have the advantages Committee, which will provide a holistic, cross-government of a good education, which is critical to improving approach on this issue. Under the Child Poverty Act 37WH Child Poverty 9 JUNE 2010 38WH

2010, the Government will publish a strategy to show Royal Liverpool University Hospital how we will meet the goal of ending child poverty by 2020. The first such strategy will be published in March Mr Clive Betts (in the Chair): Let me explain the 2011. I know that the organisations the hon. Gentleman protocol to new Members in the Chamber. If a Member mentioned—Barnardo’s, Joseph Rowntree and Save the wants to intervene, it is up to the Member who is Children—will be making important contributions to speaking to give way. If a Member wants to speak, they the development of that strategy. I look forward to have to get prior permission from the Member whose meeting those organisations in the coming months to debate it is and the Minister; I hope that they would let ensure that we have the full value of their experience me know as well. and expertise in this area, because only by doing that will we come to the right answer. 4.27 pm The simple truth is that the previous Government fell Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): short on the progress that was needed on child poverty. Thank you, Mr Betts, and let me say that I am glad to That is why our new approach needs to be implemented serve under your chairmanship. I am pleased to have quickly, if we are to reach the ambitious targets set out this opportunity to raise a key concern facing the people in the 2010 Act. Over the next nine months, I shall work of Liverpool—namely, the urgent need to build a new with colleagues across government to ensure that we Royal Liverpool University hospital. The Royal is an have a robust child poverty strategy in place. We want to excellent university teaching hospital and a leading tackle not just the symptoms of poverty but the root regional centre for diagnosis and treatment, deploying causes, so that we can say that we have the strategy on cutting-edge technologies such as digital histopathology, child poverty that both the hon. Gentleman and I know interventionist radiology and PET-CT—positron emission this country needs. tomography-computed tomography—advanced scanning. The problem is that the existing hospital, which was built in 1972, has major structural defects. Its mechanical and electrical infrastructure has major faults, it has design flaws and its internal and external fabric is failing. The trust is rated excellent for clinical services and for financial management. It has a gifted and committed staff, but that cannot overcome the problems of a deteriorating building. In March, following years of intensive scrutiny, the then Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), visited the Royal to announce a new £45 million replacement hospital, a private finance initiative, to be built on the same site. The possibilities of refurbishment had been costed and rejected on the grounds that they offered poor value for money. The approval was confirmed in writing by the Treasury and by the Department of Health, which issued an approval letter. The trust is to fund £130 million of the £451 million capital cost, so it is planned that most of the funding should come from the private sector. The proposal has been assessed for many years. The outlined strategic case was approved in 2006. It has been subjected to intensive scrutiny again and again locally, regionally and nationally, including by the Department of Health and the Treasury. It has met stringent tests for affordability and for value for money. That process has indeed cut costs, by about 32%, and the current proposal for 637 beds constitutes a 34% reduction in the number of beds outlined in earlier plans. Construction at the hospital, which will lessen both the hospital’s energy use and its carbon footprint, is due to start in 2012 and be completed by 2016. A competitive process to identify a suitable private sector partner is now under way. All that planning has now been thrown into doubt by this Government’s current spending review and their threatened draconian cuts. I want to make it very clear that replacing the Royal is about providing front-line health care for the people of Liverpool and the region. Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Does she agree with me that many people from south Liverpool also rely on the Royal Liverpool University 39WH Royal Liverpool University Hospital9 JUNE 2010 Royal Liverpool University Hospital 40WH

[Maria Eagle] Companies such as Eli Lilly, Novartis, MedImmune and Bristol-Myers Squibb already work with the Royal. hospital for acute health services and that a failure, at A new biomedical campus is planned on site and it will this late stage, to agree to rebuild the Royal and to let be integrated with similar facilities, expanding research, that project go forward will leave the entire city—not improving diagnosis and developing new health-related just the north of the city—having to obtain its health products. That campus will create additional jobs in services in a deteriorating building that is no longer fit Liverpool, as Liverpool increasingly becomes a global for purpose in the 21st century? leader in this sector. The new hospital will also make a major economic impact. Building the hospital itself will Mrs Ellman: I agree with my hon. Friend and her create 1,600 jobs, with the local economic benefits reaching intervention shows why this issue is so very important. £240 million. The city has taken major steps forward in recent It is very sad that, with the Government’s draconian years, yet Liverpool remains the poorest local authority; spending axe hanging over us, we still await a decision in total, 67% of its population live in the top 10% most on the Royal’s future. What is at stake? Primarily, the deprived localities in the country. Ill health is related to new hospital is about the well-being of the people of poverty. Industrial diseases such as asbestosis and Liverpool and the region, too many of whom experience mesothelioma, which are connected with the shipping unacceptably poor health. Everyone, irrespective of wealth, industry of the past, cause deaths and incapacity today. is entitled to good health care. There has been a great Although health standards have improved significantly deal of investment in health services in Liverpool in during recent years, there is still an unacceptable gap in recent years, which is why we have seen improvements life expectancy between Liverpool people and those in in people’s health. But the key issue of the need to the rest of the country. Women in Liverpool, Warrington replace this major hospital remains outstanding and it and Hull have the lowest life expectancy for women in is acutely important. The developmental hospital is the country, at 78.8 years. Women in England as a important for Liverpool’s ongoing regeneration. Liverpool whole can expect to live until they are 81.9 years old. is a city transformed, but too many of its citizens have The longest-living women in England are to be found in not yet reaped the benefits. And now, in this fraught Kensington and Chelsea, reaching 88.9 years—a disparity economic climate, new challenges have emerged. of 10 years with women in Liverpool. Liverpool men A rebuilt Royal will bring all the people of Liverpool have the fourth lowest life expectancy in the country, at essential state-of-the-art health care, fit for the 21st 74.3 years, compared with a life expectancy of 84 years century. Linked with primary care, it will make a real for men in Kensington and Chelsea and of 77 years for difference. The current proposal is mainly private finance men in England as a whole. initiative-funded. It does not lean heavily on the public Mortality rates are too high. The number of deaths purse. It has been subject to stringent scrutiny, ensuring from heart disease in Liverpool is 31% higher than the value for money, and that process is continuing. national average; the number of deaths from cancer-related The city council has already made strong representations diseases in Liverpool is 36% higher than the national and I want to praise Councillor Joe Anderson, the average; deaths from causes that are amenable to health leader of the council, and Councillor Paul Brant, an care in Liverpool are 42% higher than the national executive member of the council, who have taken the average, and deaths from conditions attributable to lead in speaking up for the health needs of the city. Any smoking in Liverpool are 57% higher than the national delays, cutbacks or cancellation would deal a major average. It is a chilling fact that for every 100 new blow to the people of Liverpool, with consequences for cancers diagnosed in the rest of England, 130 new the whole region. cancers are diagnosed in Liverpool. Although that situation is related to long-term poverty, On 31 March 2010, the Liverpool Daily Post reported deprivation, the city’s industrial legacy and individual statements made by the then shadow Secretary of State lifestyles, the new hospital, with its proposed high-tech for Health, the right hon. Member for South facilities and single rooms, which would help to reduce Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley). Following some general the spread of infection, is essential to improving people’s comments that he made about the proposed scheme at health. the Royal, the Liverpool Daily Post said: Despite its high incidence of cancer, Liverpool is the “And he turned the tables on Labour, by insisting the Tories only major UK city without a comprehensive cancer were committed to protecting NHS budgets, while the Government”— centre. Following the Cannon and Baker report, a cancer that is, the Government at that time— centre linked to Liverpool university’s department of cancer studies should be built at the Royal and that “was plotting to slash capital spending by half.” project should be progressed with urgency. Asked about the Royal development, the right hon. The new hospital will contribute to the alleviation of Gentleman, now the Secretary of State, replied: disease by building on Liverpool’s strengths in the biochemical sector, already a major contributor to the “The Conservatives have been clear about the need to protect NHS budgets, including capital spending, so we can support this local economy, by adding £1 billion gross value added project.” and employing 6,000 people. In doing so, the new hospital will help regenerate the city. It will enhance I ask the Minister to confirm that that pledge remains important diagnostic research and life sciences, with real. I also ask him to implement it without delay, give increased collaboration between the university’s leading this front-line service the green light and enable the medical school, the internationally renowned Liverpool people of Liverpool to benefit from the first-class health School of Tropical Medicine and the biomedical industry. facilities that are so important for their future. 41WH Royal Liverpool University Hospital9 JUNE 2010 Royal Liverpool University Hospital 42WH

4.38 pm said in her speech, it is widely recognised that the hospital has a number of issues. Most significantly, the The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon fabric of the building is deteriorating due to a serious Burns): I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for case of concrete rot. The building’s condition contributes Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) on securing this to high maintenance costs and a significantly poorer debate on the future of the Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen patient experience. The building is also inflexible, making University Hospitals NHS Trust. I know of her long- it increasingly difficult for the trust to deliver modern, standing support for the rebuilding of the Royal Liverpool high-quality services. hospital and it is apparent, just from looking at the number of Labour Members from Liverpool who are here today, that they are showing their interest in and Maria Eagle: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his concern about the provision of health care services in role. He is a reasonable man, and I am happy to see him their constituencies and in the broader area of Liverpool in this job. Can he give all the Liverpool MPs here today and the Wirral. some time scale within which the Government will take I also pay tribute to the NHS staff across the whole the decision on the review? We would be grateful for an of Liverpool, who do such an incredible job of caring approximate date. for hon. Members’ constituents throughout the city and the surrounding area. Those members of staff do a Mr Burns: I thank the hon. Lady for her kind comments, fantastic job, day in and day out, with little recognition which are greatly appreciated. I return the compliment or thanks from people. I want to place on record my by saying that when our roles were reversed, I found her gratitude for their tremendous work and that of NHS an extremely helpful and sympathetic Minister when I staff in the rest of the country. brought problems to her concerning Chelmsford prison. Before I come to the specifics about the Royal Liverpool She has anticipated me in her direct question. I assure hospital, I would like to set out the Government’s her—I am choosing my words carefully, as she will approach to the reconfiguration of local NHS services discover—that I will answer her question later in my mentioned by the hon. Lady as part of her argument. I speech. believe passionately that local decision making is essential The programme to address the issues within the trust to improving outcomes for patients and driving up has been ongoing for some time, as all hon. Members quality. This Government will do more than just talk present will know and appreciate. For the benefit of about pushing power to the local level; we will actually those hon. Members not present who will read the do it. report of the debate, I shall set out the timeline of My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has events. identified four crucial tests that all reconfigurations Due to the sorry state of the buildings and the high must pass. First, they must have the support of GP cost of refurbishment, the trust decided fully to rebuild commissioners. Secondly, arrangements for engaging the Royal Liverpool and Broadgreen University Hospitals patients and the public, including local authorities, NHS Trust while refurbishing the site at Broadgreen. In must be further strengthened. Thirdly, there must be July 2004, the Department of Health agreed the project’s greater clarity about the clinical evidence base underpinning strategic business case, enabling work to start on the any proposals. Fourthly, any proposals must take into outline business case and the process of obtaining planning account the need to develop and support patient choice. permission from Liverpool city council. In March 2008, To be clear, that means that forced hospital closures planning permission was granted. In September 2009, that do not have the support of GPs, local clinicians, the strategic health authority, NHS North West, approved patients and the local community should not occur. the outline business case. Then, in March this year, the project was approved by the Department of Health and Mrs Ellman: I am interested to hear the Minister’s the Treasury. On 14 April, an advertisement to tender enunciation of Government policy, but does he agree for the project was placed in the Official Journal of the that in this instance we are discussing the much-needed European Union. That is the scheme’s current position. replacement of an existing hospital that is required by However, it is important to understand the changed practitioners and the local authority? context within which we now find ourselves. The most urgent task facing the Government is to tackle our Mr Burns: The hon. Lady can rest assured that I will record debt. As part of that, the Treasury is reviewing come to that in due course, during the latter part of my every significant spending decision made between 1 January speech. In light of some of her comments, particularly 2010 and the general election on 6 May. As the hon. about cancer services, I wanted to show the setting for Member for Liverpool, Riverside herself said, the final reconfiguration in so far as it might affect that site and approvals were given on 29 March—two weeks to the other parts of Liverpool’s health care provision. day before the general election was announced. As a Where local NHS organisations have already started result, the project has been included in the Treasury to consider changing services, they will need to consider review of public spending commitments made by the again whether their plans meet the criteria before continuing. previous Government. It will be an opportunity for patients, local GPs and I hasten to add, as delicately as I can, that we, as a clinicians, and local councils to play a far greater role in nation, face tremendous difficulties due to the staggering how services are shaped and to ensure that the changes debt left to this Government. My right hon. Friends will lead to the best outcomes for patients. have rightly decided that we must get to grips with the The hon. Lady mentioned in an intervention the economic situation that we inherited, and the primary rebuilding of the Royal Liverpool. That will be reviewed problem that we face in the immediate future is the in the light of the Secretary of State’s four tests. As she debt. 43WH Royal Liverpool University Hospital9 JUNE 2010 Royal Liverpool University Hospital 44WH

Mrs Ellman: We all understand the problems of debt, Mr Burns: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid point, but, as the Minister himself said, the replacement of but everything has to be taken in the context of the this particular hospital has a long history. It has been changed circumstances—a change of Government and scrutinised many times at many different levels—locally, our overriding need to get the debt and the deficit under regionally and nationally. It is a majority private finance control. The context for that and the engine driving it is initiative scheme funded mainly by the private sector. Is the review of all public spending commitments across he suggesting either that the scrutiny has not been the board. We are talking about not simply the health proper or that the hospital is not needed to meet the service, but commitments made across Government health needs of the people of Liverpool? since 1 January. I cannot anticipate the outcome of any review, and I am sure that hon. Members would not Mr Burns: I am not quite sure how the hon. Lady expect me to. I can tell them that decisions will be taken could reach either of those conclusions, and I can tell by the spending review in the autumn, and I hope that her with all clarity that my answer to both questions is hon. Members consider that helpful. no. I do not think either of those things—that is, that proper scrutiny has not been carried out or that changes to the existing system are not needed. I can reassure her Maria Eagle: The Minister is being extremely generous on those points, but the problem is that the final decision in giving way and I am grateful. I understand the was taken after 1 January—very close to the calling of position that he is in—believe me. He gave an endpoint the general election. Because the review commences to the deliberative process, but the time scale he suggested from 1 January, the project falls within its scope and might put the development at risk. Uncertainty can must be reviewed, in these changed circumstances, to create difficulties with the funding arrangements for a help to meet our pressing economic problems and deal PFI project, such that it is no longer workable or cannot with the debt that we have inherited. The project received be put together properly if the delay is too extensive Treasury approval only in March. As a result, it is because the private sector needs to raise money through caught up in the review, as are many other projects. the markets and in other ways. The issue comes down to the simple fact that this Will the Minister undertake to do the usual thing that country faces crippling debts. A huge amount of work Ministers do, which is talk behind the scenes to his is involved in the Treasury review. As I hope hon. Treasury colleagues, as he will have to do anyway? Will Members will appreciate, I cannot give an exact timetable he ensure, as far as he can, that the project is at the front for the decision, but to be as helpful as I can and, I rather than the back of the queue? The delay he hope, live up to the kind words of the hon. Member for indicated—through to the spending review in the autumn— Garston and Halewood, I anticipate a decision being could put the viability of the scheme at risk, whether or taken by the spending review in the autumn. I appreciate not the Government reaffirm the commitment made by that that might be frustrating for hon. Members and the previous Government. For that reason, I urge him their constituents, but it is the best I can do. I hope that to do us a favour and discuss with the Treasury behind that answer moves towards their concept of helpfulness. the scenes, as Ministers do, the urgent need to deal with I am afraid that, until then, I cannot comment further this scheme as soon as possible. on the future of the development. If hon. Members were in the position in which my Government and I find Mr Burns: I respect the hon. Lady’s ingenuity and I ourselves, I am sure that they would do the same. can see where she is hoping I will go. I do not want to Like the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, I and disappoint, but I understand the situation and all I can everyone in the country share a vision of and want a do is reiterate that the project will be reviewed, as a lot high-quality NHS—accountable to patients, led by GPs of other projects across Government will be reviewed, and controlled locally. As a party, we were elected on a in line with the Treasury guidelines for the review of platform of real-terms increases in the NHS budget for projects from 1 January. every year of this five-year Parliament. It is a protected budget, so there will be no cuts, but there will be A decision will be taken by or at the time of the real-terms increases year after year, as long as this spending review in the autumn. I cannot go further Parliament remains, which I anticipate will be five years. than that. However frustrating it is for the hon. Lady, In that respect, there is stability and commitment, and I know that in her heart of hearts she understands what an understanding of the financial commitments to the I am saying. If the roles were reversed, she would NHS. That, I hope, will give some stability to the overall probably say the same thing. It would be wrong and decision-making process and the decisions that the NHS irresponsible, and potentially misleading, to go any will have to take beyond simple capital projects. further.

Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab): Does the Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op) Minister agree that our city and its citizens deserve not rose— only a new hospital built on the Royal Liverpool site, but the state-of-the-art facilities outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman)? Mr Burns: I give way to the hon. Gentleman, who has Does he also agree that the jobs created during the not had a chance to intervene. construction phase, similar to those that the Prime Minister spoke of in the Chamber this afternoon, would Stephen Twigg: I am grateful to the Minister for boost the local economy at a time of economic uncertainty? giving way and I join in the congratulations to him on From what the Minister has said, the project appears to his well deserved appointment to the Department of meet the Chancellor’s tests under the Treasury review Health. I understand that he cannot go further on because it is primarily financed under the private finance timing, but can he tell us more about the nature of the initiative. review? Is it likely that his Department will say that 45WH Royal Liverpool University Hospital9 JUNE 2010 Royal Liverpool University Hospital 46WH certain projects will go ahead as planned and others will I am advised that the primary care trusts plan to review not, or will it ask projects to look again at the cost, to the first facility at the University Hospitals Aintree site achieve more projects at the lowest cost to the taxpayer? before committing to further facilities at the Royal Liverpool. As the hon. Lady will appreciate, that is a Mr Burns: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind local decision and it would not be appropriate for and gracious comments, which I greatly appreciate. I Ministers, at this stage, to compromise the processes, also pay tribute to his experience in coming at the intervene or comment. There are local procedures to be question from a different angle. I do not want to, but I gone through before final decisions are taken. am afraid that I must disappoint him. I will not go I welcome the opportunity to discuss the future of down the route he suggests because it could be open to Liverpool Royal University hospital and fully appreciate misinterpretation. I can only repeat what will happen: how important it is to all hon. Members present and all spending projects from 1 January are being reviewed. their constituents. We will have to wait until the spending Decisions will be taken by the time of the spending review is concluded in the autumn for a decision. In the review. nicest possible way, I urge hon. Members, however I return to the reconfiguration of cancer treatments difficult it is, to be patient and wait. If I were a constituency in the area, which the hon. Member for Liverpool, MP in Liverpool, I would be in the same position as Riverside raised, to give her a brief explanation of the them. current position, because that will put it in context and, Question put and agreed to. I hope, be of help to her. Local health organisations in Cheshire and Merseyside are working together to ensure 4.59 pm better cancer facilities for the local population. However, Sitting adjourned.

9WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS

As a signatory to the declaration of the Stockholm Written Ministerial international forum on the Holocaust the UK is committed to promoting Holocaust education, remembrance and Statements research, both at home and abroad. Sir Andrew will lead the UK’s efforts in this field, drawing together activity from across Government and provide a clearer Wednesday 9 June 2010 UK international profile, presence and influence. Sir Andrew’s work will include driving forward implementation of the Terezin Declaration on Holocaust era assets, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT resolving outstanding issues related to property and art restitution and ensuring the UK remains at the forefront Previously Developed Land (Density) of discussions on the vital work of the Task Force for International Co-operation on Holocaust Education, Remembrance and Research and of the International The Minister of State, Department for Communities Tracing Service. and Local Government (Greg Clark): I am today Over the last few years the UK has taken an increasingly implementing the commitments made in the coalition active approach to preserving the memory of the Holocaust. agreement to decentralise the planning system by giving For the Foreign and Commonwealth Office this work local authorities the freedom to prevent overdevelopment has included leading the UK delegations to meetings of of neighbourhoods and “garden grabbing”. the Task Force for International Co-operation on Holocaust The impact of the old policy approach, set out in Education, Remembrance and Research and of the planning policy statement 3, is that the combination of International Tracing Service. Foreign and Commonwealth a national target for brownfield land, alongside the Office officials have also represented the Government in definition of gardens as brownfield land, has meant discussions on property restitution and Holocaust era local authorities feeling forced into granting planning assets, frequently with support from other Government permission for unwanted development on garden land— Departments. simply to maintain the brownfield target. This has worked well to date. But I am concerned To bring an end to these detrimental effects, we are that the UK is not taking the leading role it should in today therefore removing gardens from the definition these international discussions or best representing the of previously developed land in planning policy interests of the many Holocaust victims and their families statement 3. in the UK affected by these issues. For this reason, and We are also removing the requirement upon local in order to drive a more coherent and strategic approach authorities to have regard to the national minimum to our work, I have appointed Sir Andrew. He will add a density for housing set out in paragraph 47 of PPS3. new impetus to the Government’s post-Holocaust work, This policy has resulted in local authorities not having drawing on his considerable experience as chair of the enough flexibility to set density ranges that suit the executive committee of the Anglo-Israel Association local needs in their areas—particularly for family houses. and previously Her Majesty’s ambassador to Israel. I am today re-issuing planning policy statement 3: Housing (PPS3) with the following changes: the definition of previously developed land in annex B now HOME DEPARTMENT excludes private residential gardens; and the national indicative minimum density of 30 dwellings per hectare is deleted from paragraph 47. G6 Meeting Together these changes put power back in the hands of local authorities and communities to take the decisions that are best for them, and decide for themselves the The Secretary of State for the Home Department best locations and types of development in their areas. (Mrs Theresa May): The informal G6 group of Ministers This reissued policy document sets out the Secretary of the Interior from France, Germany, Spain, Italy, of State’s policy on previously developed land and Poland and the UK held their most recent meeting in housing density. Local planning authorities and the Varese, Italy on 28 to 29 May. Italy currently holds the planning inspectorate are expected to have regard to the presidency of the G6 group and the meeting was chaired policy in preparing development plans and, where relevant, by the Italian Minister for the Interior, Roberto Maroni. to take it into account as a material consideration when The meeting was divided into three working sessions determining planning applications. over two days, all of which were attended by G6 Ministers Copies have been placed in the Library of the House. of the Interior, with the additional guest attendance of the US Attorney General, Eric Holder, the US Assistant Secretary for Policy at the Department of Homeland FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Security, David Heyman, the French Immigration Minister, Eric Besson, and the European Commissioner for Home United Kingdom Envoy for Post-Holocaust Issues Affairs, Cecilia Malmström. The first working session considered Europe’s approach to the management of migration from outside the EEA. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Ministers also considered factors driving illegal immigration Affairs (Mr William Hague): I have decided to appoint and the importance of international co-operation in Sir Andrew Burns as the “United Kingdom envoy for combating criminal groups involved in illegal immigration post-Holocaust issues”. and human trafficking. There was a discussion around 11WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS ensuring that an increased focus on tackling illegal This is only the first step. We are reviewing English immigration should not come at the expense of vulnerable language requirements across the immigration system groups’ human rights, and of the importance of raising with a view to tightening the rules further in the future. awareness of the positive contribution of legal immigration We will inform the House of our conclusions in due to society. The Home Secretary underlined the importance course. of evidence-based practical co-operation between EU Today’s announcement is one of a range of new member states and of work with source and transit measures the Government will be taking to ensure that countries upstream, rather than a reliance on new EU immigration is properly controlled for the benefit of the legislation. UK. These include an annual limit on non-EEA migrants The second session focused on the issue of organised coming to the UK to live and work and measures to crime. Ministers considered the increasing flexibility minimise abuse of the immigration system, for example and diversification of organised criminals who take via student routes. advantage of global trends and opportunities. The Italian Minister for the Interior gave a presentation on Italian methods for targeting illegal assets. Ministers discussed TRANSPORT the promotion of a more joined-up approach between European States, EU Agencies and third countries in Equality Act 2010 (Seafarers) order to tackle this trans-national threat. In addition, Ministers considered methods of tackling money laundering The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport and ensuring online child protection. (Mike Penning): On 30 November 2009, the previous At the third session Ministers considered counter- Government published draft affirmative regulations showing terrorism. The importance of strengthening international how they proposed to apply part 5 of the Equality Act co-operation was discussed, with particular focus on 2010 to seafarers. The draft regulations were silent on the relationship between Europe and the US. Discussion the practice of differential pay for seafarers recruited also centred upon the value of dialogue with third abroad and therefore, if they had been approved by countries and the benefit of engaging and supporting Parliament in their published form, the practice of countries in tackling violent extremism. At an operational differential pay for seafarers recruited abroad would level, discussion focused on the strengthening of aviation have ended. security, including the sharing of air passenger information, Those who are likely to be affected by the final and on work into the threat posed by radicalisation. regulations were invited to submit evidence-based financial In addition to the three plenary sessions, Italy gave a estimates of the likely impact of either: video presentation of its arrangements for handling (a) outlawing the practice of differential pay altogether; or, serious road traffic accidents. The Home Secretary also (b) continuing to allow the payment of differential rates of pay held separate bilateral meetings with all of the other to seafarers but only where such differentiation would not operate heads of delegation. to the disadvantage of nationals from an EU, EEA state (or any The next meeting of the G6 is expected to be held in other state whose nationals are entitled to corresponding rights Poland in the second half of this year. under EU law) nor that of seafarers recruited in Great Britain, and the difference in rates would correspond to a difference in the cost of living in the places where the seafarers respectively habitually reside. The then Government subsequently announced that English Language Requirement a review of the evidence submitted would be commissioned. Today I am publishing the findings of the review The Secretary of State for the Home Department commissioned by the previous Government, copies of (Mrs Theresa May): I wish to inform the House that I which have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses am today announcing the introduction of a new English and are available on the DFT website (www.dft.gov.uk). language requirement for migrants applying to come to The issues raised by those who submitted evidence or stay in the UK as a spouse. Changes to the immigration are important and the Government wish to provide rules will be laid before Parliament to bring this policy interested parties with the opportunity to comment on into effect in the autumn. this review of evidence before reaching conclusions on how to proceed. I am therefore inviting comments on Non-European migrants joining a British citizen or this review over the next two weeks. I am especially keen non-European national settled in the UK will have to to hear from those parties who previously submitted demonstrate a basic command of English in order to be evidence. considered for a visa. The rules will apply to spouses, civil partners, unmarried partners, same sex partners, Once I have considered the matter further, I will fiancés and proposed civil partners, and will be compulsory report back to Parliament. for people applying from within the UK, as well as visa applicants overseas. HEALTH The Government believe that speaking English should be a pre-requisite for those wishing to settle here. This Time for Training (Medical Education England Report) new English requirement for spouses will help promote the economic well-being of the UK, for example by encouraging integration and protecting public services. The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Andrew Lansley): It will assist in removing cultural barriers, broaden “Time for Training”, the independent review of the opportunities for migrants and help to ensure that they impact of the European working time directive on the are equipped to play a full part in British life. quality of medical training is being launched today by 13WS Written Ministerial Statements9 JUNE 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS

Medical Education England. A copy has been placed in We will not go back to the past with tired doctors the Library and copies are available to hon. Members working excessive hours, but the way the directive now from the Vote office. applies is clearly unsatisfactory and is causing great In response to concerns about the impact of the problems for health services across Europe. These difficulties directive on the training of junior doctors working in are clearly reflected in the evidence from junior doctors the national health service, the then Secretary of State that the implementation of the 48-hour week EWTD asked Medical Education England last year to commission has impacted adversely on training and has been an independent review. I want to thank Professor Sir accompanied by unwelcome imposition of shift practices. John Temple for his report and Medical Education Sir John’s report reinforces my determination to support England for their advice in helping to bring together efforts to resolve these difficulties and be ready to work complementary perspectives to issues affecting the quality constructively with the European Commission and other of patient services and training. member states on radical, creative approaches to gain additional flexibilities. The objective of post-graduate medical training is to produce fully qualified specialists who are able to provide Professor Sir John Temple’s findings demonstrate high quality and safe patient care. Experience in delivering that far more can be done now by the service and the service is an integral part of training for a junior doctor medical profession to improve medical training by changing but the provision of service is not the primary purpose working practices and taking greater advantage of the of post-graduate medical training. Sir John’s review big increase in the number of consultants working in challenges the service and medical profession to think the national health service. I welcome his recommendations afresh about the approach to training the next generation that the New Deal contract for junior doctors should be of hospital specialists in ways that will provide better better aligned with the structures under the directive patient care and well-trained professionals. and that the consultant contract and job planning should The findings in this report underline the importance incentivise consultants to support trainees and continuity of the coalition agreement commitment to limit the of training. Continuity of patient care, of course, rests impact of the directive in the context of United Kingdom with the consultant who is responsible for the patient. health services. “Time for Training” identifies ways in I have asked Medical Education England to consider which safe care and high-quality training are capable of with the profession, the service and medical Royal being achieved in the service. It also highlights the Colleges, how best to implement training practices that immediate difficulties created for trainees and for the will support these aspirations. This will include reviewing service, especially in providing out-of-hours and weekend the appropriate service component for medical specialty emergency patient care, in places where there is not yet training with individual colleges and specialty associations, the structure, support or flexibility of working practices and advising NHS employers in their discussions on needed to comply with the directive and the restrictive ways to realign and simplify New Deal working interpretations of the directive by the European Court arrangements. I will continue to seek advice from Medical of Justice. Education England on other matters to improve training, I will support my right hon. Friend the Secretary of including development of a strategy for technology- State for Business, Innovation and Skills in taking a enhanced learning and take-up of simulation training, robust approach to future negotiations on the revision and on the future structure of post-graduate medical of the directive, including maintenance of the opt-out. education.

3P Petitions9 JUNE 2010 Petitions 4P

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Petitions Mr Andrew Pelling, Official Report, 30 March 2010; Vol. 788, c. 508.] Wednesday 9 June 2010 [P000808] Observations from the Secretary of State for Culture, OBSERVATIONS Olympics, Media and Sport: It is naturally a worrying time for all those associated with Crystal Palace, and of course we understand the CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT frustrations felt—not least by the supporters who remain Croydon FC the lifeblood of the club. The Petition of the supporters of Croydon FC, Football clubs remain an important part of the community, and every care should be taken to protect Declares that there have been talks with Croydon their long-term future through good financial management. Council for many years about providing security of tenure for Croydon FC at the Arena, South Norwood, It is for the clubs themselves to ensure they manage as well as talks about the destruction of the playing their finances well, and for the football authorities to fields to the south of the Arena as a result of their use regulate the game to the highest standards. as a place to dump spill from the construction of Government are supportive of the measures that the Croydon Tramlink, and that no progress has been made football authorities have taken in recent years to strengthen with these talks. the financial regulation of clubs and help monitor club debt. However, the issue of a points deduction is one for The Petitioners therefore request that the House of the relevant regulatory authority, in this case the Football Commons urges the Government to ask Croydon Council League, not Government, to address. to bring the discussions with Croydon FC to a positive conclusion for both parties and for the South Norwood We are delighted that an agreement in principle has community. been reached for the sale of the club and Selhurst Park to the CPFC 2010 Group and we hope this agreement And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by can be finalised quickly to ensure the club can focus on Mr Andrew Pelling, Official Report, 7 April 2010; Vol. 508, the forthcoming season. The club has a proud history, c. 41P.] built on the loyalty of its supporters, and we wish it the [P000826] very best for the future. Observations from the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport: The issue regarding Croydon FC’s tenure at the Arena, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE South Norwood is a matter that should be resolved by the Local Authority and Croydon FC. Government EU Referendum cannot get involved in the local decision making process. The Petition of the people of Croydon, In respect of the playing fields situated to the south of the Arena, under planning guidance, local authorities Declares that there should be a referendum on European are required to protect all open space which communities Union membership. need. For this reason, the dumping of spill from the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of nearby Tramlink development should be dealt with as a Commons urges the Government to call a referendum priority by the local authority. on EU membership at the same time as the next General Crystal Palace FC Election. The Petition of football supporters, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr Andrew Pelling, Official Report, 24 March 2010; Declares that The Football League should exercise Vol. 508, c. 348.] discretion in its application of its rules that has led to the 10 point deduction from Crystal Palace FC, and [P000782] notes that unlike other football clubs penalised after Observations from the Secretary of State for Foreign seeking administration Crystal Palace FC was placed in and Commonwealth Affairs: administration against its wishes, and notes that Lloyds The Petition of the people of Croydon declares that Banking Group has an important role to play in returning there should be a referendum on European Union Crystal Palace FC to profitable trading by working on membership and requests that the House of Commons the ownership of Selhurst Park being returned to the urges the Government to call a referendum on EU club. membership at the same time as the next General Election. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of The Government do not plan to hold a referendum Commons urges the Government to encourage The on whether the UK should remain a member of the EU. Football League to consider whether it should remove However, we are determined to maximise democratic or reduce the points penalty meted out to Crystal and Parliamentary control over EU decision making. Palace FC, and as a major shareholder in Lloyds Banking We will amend the 1972 European Communities Act so Group that it should ask the senior management of that any proposed future Treaty that transferred areas Lloyds Banking Group as to what action it is taking to of power or competences from the UK to the EU would reunite Selhurst Park with Crystal Palace FC so as to be subject to a referendum before the UK could ratify aid Crystal Palace FC in returning to profitable trading. that Treaty. We will also ensure that any decision by a 5P Petitions9 JUNE 2010 Petitions 6P future Government to join the euro would be subject to the EU will also be subject to a referendum. We will a referendum, though we have agreed not to join or to examine the case for a United Kingdom Sovereignty prepare to join the euro in this Parliament. We have also Bill to make it clear that ultimate authority remains agreed that there should be no further transfer of with Parliament. sovereignty or powers from the UK to the EU over the All of this will ensure that there will be no extension course of the next Parliament. of the EU’s power over the UK without the British We will amend the 1972 Act to ensure that the use of people’s consent. The UK will continue to be a positive any clauses which allow the powers of the EU to participant in the European Union, playing a strong expand in future without a new Treaty—sometimes and positive role with our partners, with the goal of known as passerelle or ratchet clauses—would require ensuring that all the nations of Europe are equipped to primary legislation. Any use of a major ratchet clause face the challenges of the 21st century: global which amounted to the transfer of an area of power to competitiveness, global warming and global poverty. 145W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 146W

comments received, an MCA chaired group, the Written Answers to Boatmasters’ Licences sub-group of the Domestic Passenger Ship Steering Group (DPSSG) has also commented Questions extensively on the proposals. As this group is informal it is not necessary to review their financial interests, however I am happy to receive representation from my hon. Wednesday 9 June 2010 Friend should he have any concerns in this regard. All comments are being actively considered by the MCA and this will result in a second informal consultation prior to a final public consultation before any amending WALES regulations are laid. Departmental Manpower Bus Services: Regulation Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many (a) special advisers and (b) press officers Mr Davidson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport are employed by her Department; and at what civil what his policy is on local authority regulation of local [1283] service pay grade in each such case. bus services. [R] [1365] Mrs Gillan: I have not yet appointed a special adviser. Norman Baker: The coalition agreement makes clear There are three staff in the communications branch—one that we will encourage joint working between bus operators grade 6, one senior information officer and one information and local authorities in England. The Local Transport officer. Act 2008 introduced a number of new bus regulations Departmental Official Cars in England and the related guidance has been published in full. I intend to wait for the outcome of the Competition Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Commission inquiry into the local bus market in Great what the (a) make, (b) model and (c) place of Britain outside London before deciding on the need for manufacture is of the car allocated for the use of each any further regulatory reform of bus provision. Minister in her Department. [1491] Departmental Billing Mrs Gillan: The Wales Office inherited three cars allocated to its Ministers. In London we have two Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Toyota Prius, manufactured in Japan, and in Cardiff we Transport what percentage of invoices from suppliers have a Jaguar manufactured in the UK. These arrangements to his Department were paid within 10 days of receipt are changing following the publication of the new ministerial in (a) March and (b) April 2010. [1276] code which contains changes that affect ministerial entitlement to travel by Government car. The code Norman Baker: The percentage of invoices from suppliers states that to the Department for Transport and its agencies paid “the number of Ministers with allocated cars and drivers will be within 10 days of receipt was: kept to a minimum, taking into account security and other relevant considerations. Other Ministers will be entitled to use (a) March 2010: 89.40% cars from the Government Car Service Pool as needed”. (b) April 2010: 87.01% Cabinet Office has provided clarification on how the The central Department and its agencies are working code should be interpreted. The expectation is that towards further improving their prompt payment figures. Ministers not in the Cabinet will use the pool service The Department for Transport is made up of a central and that Cabinet Ministers who have an allocated car Department and seven Executive agencies, as follows: will wish to consider how that car might be utilised by Highways Agency (HA) other Ministers within the Department before calls are made on the Government Car Service Pool. Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) The Department for Transport and its Government Driving Standards Agency (DSA) Car and Despatch Agency are working with departments Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) to effect the transition to the new arrangements. Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA) Vehicle Certification Agency (VCA) Government Car and Despatch Agency (GCDA). TRANSPORT This response covers all eight entities. Boats: Licensing Departmental Contracts Mr Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if he will review the financial interests of the Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for individuals reviewing the Boatmasters Regulations for Transport what estimate he has made of the cost to his the Marine and Coastguard Agency; and if he will Department of the (a) implementation of penalty make a statement. [410] clauses and payments in its contracts and (b) potential legal action arising from the deferral and cancellation Mike Penning: The Maritime and Coastguard Agency of contracts and projects under his Department’s plans (MCA) is in the process of reviewing the results of an to achieve cost savings; and whether those estimates are initial informal consultation on required changes to the included in the total cost savings to be achieved by his Boatmasters’ regulations. In addition to the written Department. [568] 147W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 148W

Mr Philip Hammond: I have agreed to contribute HEALTH £683 million to the £6 billion of in-year budget reductions sought in the emergency Budget. NHS: Training For Department for Transport’s (DFT’s) direct spend, the reductions have been targeted at improving efficiency Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for within non-contractualised spend and re-negotiating Health what his policy is on funding the provision of contracts with suppliers, and deferring a small number e-learning materials in the NHS, with particular of lower priority schemes which are not contractualised reference to the e-Learning for Health programme. for construction. The reductions will be achieved through [1525] a range of measures including a recruitment freeze, reduction in discretionary spend, and a freeze on major Anne Milton: The Department is working with Medical new IT spending. Education England and the professional boards to review strategy for technology-enhanced learning. I therefore do not expect costs under penalty clauses This review will consider the funding provision of or legal action arising from deferral or cancellation of e-learning materials in the national health service, with contracts to be incurred. particular reference to the e-Learning for Healthcare The remainder of DFT’s budget is distributed in programme. grants to Network Rail, Transport for London and local government. The proposed reductions to these grants are subject to consultations with those organisations and regulators, and it will be for them to determine how ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS reductions will be achieved. I would expect that similar Departmental Manpower efficiencies can be driven from these large organisations as can be found by the Department. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers special advisers and (b) press officers are employed by her Department; and at what Civil Service pay grade in each such case. [1277] Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many special advisers (a) he and Richard Benyon: With regard to special advisers, I (b) each other Minister in his Department (i) has refer the hon. Member to the reply given by the Prime appointed to date and (ii) plans to appoint. [310] Minister on 3 June 2010, Official Report, column 99W. The Department currently employs 18.5 full-time Mr Philip Hammond: I refer the hon. Member to the equivalent press officers within core DEFRA and answer given by the Prime Minister on 3 June 2010, 2.5 full-time equivalent press officers within its executive Official Report, column 99W. agencies. Details on their civil service pay grades are shown in the following table.

Railways: Construction Grade Total number of press officers

Core DEFRA Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Grade 5 1 Transport if he will include the East Midlands, Grade 7 3 Sheffield and Leeds in his proposals for a High Speed SIO 5.5 Rail network. [1168] IO 9 Mr Philip Hammond: The Government’s vision is of Animal Health Agency a truly national high speed rail network. Ministers are reviewing the options for linking the UK’s major HEO 1 conurbations. No final decisions on the shape of the network will be taken until full public consultation has Rural Payment Agency taken place. SEO 0.5

Food and Environment Research Woodhead Tunnel Agency SIO 1 Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for The Veterinary Medicines Directorate, Centre for Transport if he will make it his policy that the Woodhead Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science and tunnels be maintained in a manner which ensures their the Veterinary Laboratories Agency do not employ suitability for future rail use. [1297] press officers.

Mrs Villiers: Ministers are currently reviewing a wide Departmental Mobile Phones range of departmental policy. Policy on disused rail lines is being considered as part of this review. The Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Woodhead tunnels are currently owned and maintained Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which Ministers by National Grid. in her Department have been issued with (a) a Blackberry, 149W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 150W

(b) an iPhone, (c) another make of mobile telephone between 11pm and 7am from licensed or domestic and (d) a personal digital assistant supplied by the premises that exceeds the permitted level, which may be Department. [1431] in the form of a fixed penalty notice. Poultry: Animal Welfare Richard Benyon: The Secretary Of State and all DEFRA Ministers have been issued with a BlackBerry. None of the other devices listed in the question has been issued Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for to DEFRA Ministers. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she expects the prohibition of the trimming of beaks of laying hens Departmental Official Cars to take effect; and if she will make a statement. [1127] Mr Paice: The previous Government consulted on Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, the proposed amendments to the Mutilations (Permitted Food and Rural Affairs what the (a) make, (b) model Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, to remove the and (c) place of manufacture is of the car allocated for total ban on beak trimming allowing for the routine the use of each Minister in her Department. [1480] beak trimming of day old chicks intended for laying to be carried out using the infra-red technique only. It Richard Benyon: Under the interim arrangements closed on the 14 April and responses are currently being inherited from Ministers in the previous Government considered. (see my answer to the hon. Member for West Bromwich East 7 June 2010, Official Report, column 15W), DEFRA I will be discussing this matter with DEFRA officials temporarily retains two allocated cars. One is a Toyota shortly. Prius T Spirit; the other a Honda Civic ES Hybrid. Both are manufactured in Japan. JUSTICE Noise: Pollution Control Defamation Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her policy Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for is on tackling noise pollution; and if she will make a Justice if he will (a) review the law on libel and (b) lay statement. [1307] formal proposals for reform to provide that it shall not prevent media in the UK reporting court proceedings Richard Benyon: The Noise Policy Statement for England elsewhere in the EU, in particular where this concerns provides a wide framework aimed at enabling noise UK (a) firms and (b) nationals. [883] management decisions to be made that ensure noise levels do not place an unacceptable burden on society. Mr Djanogly: We are committed to reviewing the law The statement sets out a vision to on defamation with a view to ensuring that freedom of speech and academic debate are protected and that a “promote good health and a good quality of life, through the effective management of noise within the context of government fair balance is struck between freedom of expression policy on sustainable development.” and the protection of reputation. Additionally, the Environmental Noise Directive (END) Departmental Billing Noise Action Plans for 23 agglomerations (large urban areas) and major roads and major railways (outside Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for agglomerations), in England (www.defra.gov.uk/ Justice what percentage of invoices from suppliers to environment/quality/noise/), set out the principles of his Department were paid within 10 days of receipt in managing environmental noise. (a) March and (b) April 2010. [1257] They also describe the process to be followed by the Highways Agency, local highway authorities, and the Mr Djanogly: The Ministry of Justice paid 94% of railway industry, to determine what, if any, further valid supplier invoices within 10 days of receipt in noise management measures might be undertaken (in March 2010, and 95% of valid supplier invoices within the context of Government policy on sustainable 10 days of receipt in April 2010. development), in areas found to most affected by The MoJ has been collecting performance data for environmental noise. The plans also describe the process the MoJ and its agencies since November 2008. The for identifying and managing quiet areas, with the aim data have been reported to the Department for Business, of preserving environmental noise quality where it is Innovation and Skills and are reproduced in the following considered good. table: Local authorities also have a statutory duty under the Environmental Protection Act 1990 to inspect their Month Percentage of invoices in 10 days areas periodically for existing and potential statutory nuisances from noise, and to take reasonably practicable 2008 steps to investigate complaints of noise nuisance within November 64 their areas. Once satisfied that a statutory nuisance December 59 exists or may occur or recur, a local authority must issue an abatement notice requiring that the noise be ceased 2009 or abated within a specified timescale. Local authorities January 55 also have powers under the Noise Act 1996 (as amended) February 67 to take enforcement action against night noise emitted 151W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 152W

case of a parliamentary election conducted on its own) Month Percentage of invoices in 10 days and schedule 2 (in the case when a parliamentary general March 66 election is taken together with the ordinary day of April 82 election of councillors in some constituencies in 2010) May 92 to the order. June 88 July 89 August 88 Prison Service: Manpower September 92 October 92 Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for November 93 Justice whether he plans to reduce staffing levels in December 92 prisons in financial year 2010-11; and if he will make a statement. [1225] 2010 Mr Blunt: Staffing levels in prisons and young offender January 89 institutions in England and Wales are set on the basis of February 93 the delivery plan and budget that is agreed between the March 94 governor and the regional manager with responsibility April 95 for custodial services; it is subject to ongoing review. There are no plans to reduce staffing levels outside of Electoral Register this arrangement. In line with the announcement by the Chancellor of Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the Exchequer and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury what financial recompense chief executives of local on 24 May 2010, a recruitment freeze has been imposed authorities receive for assuming responsibility for on all external recruitment to posts within the civil electoral matters in respect of (a) local and (b) general service. Steps have been taken not to undermine the elections. [726] delivery of prison services and the recruitment of key staff, such as prison officers, will continue as necessary. Mr Harper: I have been asked to reply. In England and Wales, under section 8 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, each local authority Rape: Disclosure of Information must appoint an to be electoral registration officer, responsible for maintaining the electoral register in the Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State local authority area. Under the Representation of the for Justice what plans the Government has to grant People Act 1983, each local authority in the UK must anonymity to defendants in rape cases. [753] also appoint a returning officer for local elections in that area. Local authority chief executives are often Mr Blunt: The Government will come forward with appointed as electoral registration officer and returning proposals on defendant anonymity in rape cases once officer for their local authority. all the options have been carefully considered. Under section 36 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, all expenditure properly incurred by a returning officer in administering local authority elections must Rape: Lancashire be paid by the local authority (in so far as it does not exceed any scale fixed by the local authority). Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for In England and Wales, the Representation of the Justice what proportion of contested prosecutions for People Act 1983 provides for the duties of a returning rape in Lancashire police force area have resulted in a officer in respect of the conduct of a UK parliamentary conviction in each of the last five years. [1121] election to be discharged by the electoral registration officer for the constituency as “acting returning officer”. Mr Blunt: The proportion of defendants tried at the The amounts which returning officers receive for the Crown court in the Lancashire police force area for services rendered and expenses incurred in administering rape, who pleaded not guilty and who were found UK parliamentary elections are paid from the Consolidated guilty, from 2004 to 2008 (latest available) is given in the Fund under section 29 of the Representation of the following table. People Act 1983. The overall maximum amount which Court proceedings data for 2009 are planned for a returning officer is entitled to recover is set out in the publication in October 2010. Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officer’s Charges) Number of defendants tried at the Crown court for rape1, 2 who pleaded Order 2010. This order also sets out the maximum not guilty, who were found guilty of rape, Lancashire police force area amount a returning officer may recover in respect of 2004-083, 4 specified services and expenses. 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 The order provides different amounts for when a Total tried who 32 48 29 46 47 parliamentary election is conducted on its own, or when pleaded not guilty a parliamentary general election is taken together with (number) the ordinary day of election of councillors in some Found guilty 812101321 constituencies in 2010. The fee which each acting returning (number) officer may receive for his services is set out under Conviction rate 25 25 34 28 45 column 2 of the table contained in schedule 1 (in the (percentage)5 153W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 154W

1 Includes: Rape and attempted rape of a female or male. system to take account of the use of non-biometric 2 Includes: Conspiracies, charges of participation in offences as passports. [748] accessories after the fact and charges of participation in offences by impeding the apprehension or prosecution of the offender. 3 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons Damian Green: There are not expected to be any cost for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they impacts to the public purse. were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or There will be no need to adapt the e-Borders system more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more which is designed to work with all types of travel offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory documents. maximum penalty is the most severe. 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these Home Department what assessment she has made of data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care the likely effects on the operation of e-border and wider should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their border control checks of the ending of the biometric inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are passport scheme. [749] used. 5 Proportion of defendants tried who pleaded not guilty at the Damian Green: The assessment of the UK Border Crown court who were found guilty. Note: Agency is that halting work on the next generation of As can be seen in the table, the conviction rate is based on data biometric passports will have no impact on the operation totals of less than 100. Conviction rates at this level can be easily of e-borders or the wider checks at ports and airports. affected, either up or down, by relatively minor alterations in the basedataused. Departmental Billing Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for the Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Act 2010 Home Department what percentage of invoices from suppliers to her Department were paid within 10 days Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for of receipt in (a) March and (b) April 2010. [1259] Justice when he plans to make a commencement order to bring into force the Third Parties (Rights against Nick Herbert: The Home Department has invested in Insurers) Act 2010. [987] process improvement through the creation of a professional Shared Service Centre and Procurement Centre of Mr Djanogly: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of Excellence and upgraded Procure to Pay systems. The State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable) Department has put firm focus on paying its suppliers announced on 2 June that all regulation inherited from on time on receipt of a compliant invoice. It has worked the last Government, including this Act, will be reviewed. closely with the Department for Business, Innovation No commencement date will be set until the review has and Skills reporting on both its legislative obligations been completed. of 30 days as well as the 10 day commitment for all Youth Justice: Per Capita Costs suppliers. The Home Department’s and UKBAs performance Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for information for paying suppliers within 10 day of receipt Justice what the average cost to the public purse of of a compliant invoice in March and April 2010 is: processing a case of a child through the criminal justice system from arrest to sentence was in (a) the youth Percentage Total Compliant court and (b) the Crown Court in the latest period for w/terms— Total compliant invoices compliant invoices invoices paid within which figures are available. [415] invoices paid paid terms

Mr Djanogly: The work of the Ministry of Justice March spans criminal, civil and family justice, as well as democracy 2010 and rights. HM Courts Service forms only a part of the Home 92 2,819 2,166 1,998 wider criminal justice system, which includes the Crown Office Prosecution Service, the Metropolitan Police and HM UKBA 88 5,391 3,773 3,318 Prison Service. This answer is provided from a Her Total 90 8,210 5,939 5,316 Majesty’s Courts Service (HMCS) point of view only. It is not currently possible to identify separately and April disaggregate youth court related costs. The costs to 2010 HMCS for processing children’s cases in (a) the youth Home 85 2,240 1,535 1,308 courts and (b) the crown court cannot currently be Office separately identified as the time taken to conclude cases UKBA 84 4,760 3,319 2,778 involving children is not available. Total 84 7,000 4,854 4,086

Departmental Public Expenditure HOME DEPARTMENT Borders: Personal Records Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate she has made of the Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the cost to her Department of the (a) implementation of Home Department what estimate she has made of the penalty clauses and payments in its contracts and (b) cost to the public purse of adapting the e-borders potential legal action arising from the deferral and 155W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 156W cancellation of contracts and projects under her 1 These figures are based on provisional management information Department’s plans to achieve cost savings; and and as per all removals and voluntary departures figures are subject whether those estimates are included in the total cost to change. They have not been quality assured under National Statistics savings to be achieved by her Department. [565] protocols, and are not identified separately in the published statistics on removals and voluntary departures. The figures include notified, Nick Herbert: Work is presently underway in the assisted and other forms of voluntary departures. All cases are Home Office to manage the process of any contract considered for an exclusion order by the UK Border Agency where re-negotiation with suppliers, due to change in scope, there is a legal framework to do so deferral or cancellation of programmes. The actual Management Information prior to 2007 is not available. costs and net savings are therefore subject to commercial Published information from 2008 onwards is available negotiation. Eventual final costs and charges will be from the Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical included in the final net savings and reported accordingly. Summary Statistical bulletins; available in the Library of the House and on the Home Office’s Research, Departmental Redundancy Pay Development and Statistics website at: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for the stats.html Home Department what her most recent estimate is of the annual cost to her Department of redundancy Detention Centres: Children payments for (a) front line and (b) other staff employed by (i) her Department and (ii) its agencies. Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for the [639] Home Department how many children were detained in immigration removal centres on the latest date for Nick Herbert: We do not yet know the full extent of which figures are available. [888] early releases (voluntary or compulsory) that may be required in 2010-11. Furthermore, until we have clarity Damian Green: As at 31 March 2010, there were about the outcome of the legal challenge to the Civil 30 people detained solely under Immigration Act powers Service Compensation Scheme by the Public and recorded as being less than 18 years of age. Commercial Services Union, we will not be able to make reliable calculations of any early release costs. This information is available in tables 3.5 to 3.8 of the Control of Immigration: Quarterly Statistical Summary, Deportation: Offenders United Kingdom, January to March 2010 published on 27 May 2010 available in the Library of the House and Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Office’s Research, Development and Statistics the Home Department how many foreign national website at: prisoners were (a) released from prison and (b) http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- removed from the UK in each of the last five years. stats.html [1115] I recently announced a review into the detention of children for asylum purposes so it can be brought to an Damian Green: The number of foreign national prisoners end this summer. We have already ended the detention who were discharged from prison having completed of children at Dungavel. determinate sentences for each year from 2004 to 2008 is as follows; Entry Clearances: Pakistan

Number Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004 7,100 the Home Department how many people resident in 2005 7,400 Islamabad applied for (a) visitor visas and (b) 2006 7,700 permanent settlement in each year since 1997. [1120] 2007 8,100 2008 9,500 Damian Green: The UK Border Agency (UKBA) 2009 N/A cannot break down its records of visa applications by city of residence except at disproportionate cost. These figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. They refer to the number of discharges on completion Identity Cards of sentence for each year, and will include prisoners who have been removed or deported. Data for 2009 are Paul Goggins: To ask the Secretary of State for the not yet available. Home Department how many of her Department’s Published figures for the UK Border Agency on the staff who have been employed in administering the number of foreign national prisoners removed or deported identity cards programme she estimates will be (a) from 2007 to 2009 are; redeployed to other work and (b) made redundant; and if she will make a statement. [471] Number Damian Green [holding answer 2 June 2010]: There 2004 N/A will be a reduction in staff numbers as a result of the 2005 N/A cancellation of identity cards. This is in addition to the 2006 N/A other efficiency savings IPS is making to contribute to 2007 4,200 budget reductions across government. We will begin 20081 5,395 communicating with staff and union representatives 20091 5,535 about how this will happen during the coming weeks. 157W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 158W

We will also be working very closely with suppliers to of the passport chip required to include finger images manage any impacts on them. Last week we informed and the establishment of a capability to enrol passport 60 temporary staff based in Durham that their contracts applicants’ fingerprints. will be ended three months early (in June). They have no entitlement to redundancy or redeployment. Police: Finance Our aim is, as far as possible, to redeploy permanent staff affected and take all action possible to avoid Mr Hanson: To ask the Secretary of State for the compulsory redundancies. Home Department what representatives she has received from (a) the Association of Police Authorities, (b) Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for the police authorities and (c) organisations representing Home Department (1) what estimate she has made of the police on the revised police funding settlement the cost to the public purse of cancelling contracts with announced on 27 May 2010. [1023] companies undertaking work for her Department on the (a) development of the next generation biometric Nick Herbert: No representations have been received passport and (b) development and delivery of the to date. However, a consultation period will begin once identity card system; [747] the Police Grant Report (England and Wales) Amending (2) what estimate she has been made of the annual Report 2010-11 has been laid. (a) saving to the public purse consequent on ending the identity register and (b) cost to the public purse of Christopher Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for the cancellation of contracts in respect of the identity the Home Department what funding her Department register projects including cancellation fees to intends to provide to police authorities in respect of the contractors. [750] requirement upon them to publish detailed monthly local crime statistics. [1071] Damian Green: The estimated exchequer savings from cancelling ID cards and the National Identity Register Nick Herbert: Greater transparency across Government are £86 million and further savings in the region of £134 are at the heart of our approach to accountability for million will be realised by halting the introduction of public services. This is why we will make sure that, from fingerprint biometric passports. January 2011, crime data is published at a level that The cost implications of terminating and amending allows the public to see what is happening on their certain National Identity Service contracts are currently streets. We will be working with police forces and authorities a matter of commercial negotiation with suppliers, to to ensure that this is done in a way which offers value protect taxpayers’ interests. It is therefore not possible for money for Government, the police service and the to give the cost of cancelling those contracts at this public. time. Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether those persons who have John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for the received an identity card will be able to continue using Home Department pursuant to the answer of 2 June it for its stated purposes until its expiry date; and if she 2010, Official Report, column 13W, on work permits, will make a statement; [1004] how many work cards (a) have been allocated and (b) (2) whether persons who applied voluntarily to receive are planned to be allocated to each (i) county and identity cards are to be reimbursed the application fee. (ii) region under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers [1005] Scheme in 2010. [1400]

Damian Green [holding answer 8 June 2010]: For the Damian Green: The quota for the Seasonal Agricultural time being, identity cards remain valid until the date of Workers Scheme for 2010 is 21,250. All work cards have expiry on the card. However, the Identity Documents been allocated by the United Kingdom Border Agency Bill which was laid before Parliament on 26 May 2010 to the nine contracted Operators, according to their proposes the scrapping of ID Cards and the National agreed share of the full quota. Identity Register. Cards would remain valid for one Operators are responsible for issuing the cards to month after Royal Assent. The Identity and Passport workers. Service is writing to each cardholder informing them of progress and contact details for further advice. Card Information on the number of work cards allocated refunds or credit for a future passport application will and planned to be allocated by county is not recorded not be offered. centrally. Information on the number of cards issued by Operators to workers with a specific start date by region Passports: Fingerprints is as follows:

Card issued to Meg Hillier: To ask the Secretary of State for the workers with Cards issued to Home Department whether she plans to include start dates workers with fingerprint information in British passports from 2012; 1 January 2010 start dates 1 June and if she will make a statement. [1242] Region to 31 May 2010 2010 onwards Total Anglia 1,805 540 2,345 Damian Green: The programme of work in place to Central 1,335 65 1,400 deliver fingerprints in passports in 2012 has been halted. Midlands 1,325 40 1,365 This includes the enhancements to the electronic security 159W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 160W

Trade Unions Card issued to workers with Cards issued to start dates workers with Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for the 1 January 2010 start dates 1 June Home Department what plans she has to consult trade Region to 31 May 2010 2010 onwards Total unions in (a) her Department and (b) its agencies North 640 120 760 concerning deficit reduction plans. [609] East North 385 65 450 Nick Herbert: The Home Office and its agencies are West fully committed to making the savings required in the Northern 40 5 45 Government’s deficit reduction plan. Ireland The Department is drawing up detailed plans on how Not stated 190 0 190 the savings will be made, and how this will affect staff. Scotland 2,030 415 2,445 South 2,495 490 2,985 Staff are being kept informed of changes through a East variety of methods. South 2,875 305 3,180 Where there is a requirement to consult and in West circumstances where consultation is deemed to be the Wales 10 0 10 best approach, irrespective of obligation, the Home Total 13,130 2,045 15,175 Office and its agencies will consult with the relevant recognised trade unions on areas where the plans will The figures quoted are not provided under National have a significant impact on staff. Statistics protocols and have been derived from local management information and are therefore provisional and subject to change. Figures are rounded to the nearest five. WORK AND PENSIONS The number of work cards allocated may not equate to the number of individuals working in the UK under the Seasonal Agricultural Workers Scheme. Not all Departmental Billing cards allocated are used, and some cards are issued as replacements for lost or spoiled cards. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what percentage of invoices from suppliers Sexual Offences: Registration to his Department were paid within 10 days of receipt in (a) March and (b) April 2010. [1266]

Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Grayling: The percentage of supplier invoices Home Department if she will consider the merits of paid within 10 days of receipt is as follows: broadening the definition of sexual offences in Schedule 3 to the Sexual Offences Act 2003 to include Percentage murder where there was clear sexual motive; and if she will make a statement. [1455] March 2010 97 April 2010 95 James Brokenshire: It is essential that the police and other agencies effectively manage dangerous offenders Departmental Official Hospitality including those convicted of sexually motivated murders once released back into the community. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Work he UK has one of the most robust systems for managing and Pensions what budget his Department has allocated sex offenders in the world. The scope of the legislative for entertainment, including alcohol, in each of the next framework is regularly kept under review including the three years. [1324] need to add new categories of offence and new types of notification requirements. Chris Grayling: The Department does not allocate a Those receiving mandatory sentences for murder are budget for the provision of entertainment or alcohol. subject to licence conditions after release from prison All expenditure is made in accordance with published which could include requirements similar to those under departmental guidance on financial procedures and the notification regime. In addition persons posing a propriety, based on the principles set out in Treasury risk after release can be actively managed by police and guidance ’Managing Public Money’. other agencies under local multi agency public protection arrangements (MAPPA). Departmental Public Expenditure Where there is evidence that a person convicted of murder poses a risk of serious sexual harm to the Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for public, in addition to the restriction of the life licence, Work and Pensions what estimate he has made of the the police can apply for a sexual offences prevention cost to his Department of the (a) implementation of order. penalty clauses and payments in its contracts and (b) This Government are committed to ensuring that potential legal action arising from the deferral and these arrangements are protecting our communities and cancellation of contracts and projects under his will work with colleagues across Government to ensure Department’s plans to achieve cost savings; and that the most effective policy and legislation are in whether those estimates are included in the total cost place. savings to be achieved by his Department. [559] 161W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 162W

Chris Grayling: DWP expects to minimise costs resulting For local authority tenants Housing Benefit takes the from any deferral or cancellation of contracts and form of a rebate against their rent account. projects. Any estimate would be speculative at this stage A review of the first two years’ operation of the local and therefore none have been included within our plans housing allowance arrangements is being undertaken to for cost savings. monitor the impact of the local housing allowance at a Departmental contracts include break clauses allowing national level. The review aims to cover a range of the authority the right to terminate at any time by issues including direct payment to tenants. giving an agreed period of notice. This period of notice may vary from contract to contract dependant upon the Social Security Benefits: Disabled goods or service being supplied. Any costs incurred by the Department would be deducted from reported savings. Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Work In the event of procurement projects being deferred and Pensions what plans he has for the future of or cancelled, the Department would only pay those (a) incapacity benefit and (b) employment and reasonable costs that had been agreed at the outset of a support allowance; and if he will take steps to ensure competition. The Department does not generally make that claimants with debilitating conditions are not any such agreement. Reported savings would reflect any disadvantaged by changes in the welfare system. [83] costs incurred. Employers’ Liability Chris Grayling: A key priority for the new Government will be to help as many of the 2.2 million claimants of the old incapacity benefits as possible back into the Rachel Reeves: To ask the Secretary of State for Work work place. We support the view of many independent and Pensions when he plans to respond to the consultation representative groups that, where possible, people are on Accessing compensation: supporting people who better off in work. need to trace employer’s liability insurance. [986] The Department plans to begin the reassessment of people receiving incapacity benefit in October 2010 and Chris Grayling: The public consultation closed on transfer cases to either employment and support allowance 5 May 2010. We are currently considering the replies we or jobseeker’s allowance. received and we will publish our response to the consultation in due course. The Work Capability Assessment is carried out by a health care professional and delivers an evaluation of Future Jobs Fund the extent to which a claimant is capable of work. We are aware that some people need much more support to Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Work manage their conditions and get help to find work, and and Pensions how many young people have been employed moving them to employment and support allowance is through the Future Jobs Fund in each constituency the best way to do that. We know this is a big undertaking since its inception. [1019] and are working on plans to make the change happen as smoothly as possible for all claimants. Chris Grayling: The Information requested is not A Department-led review of the Work Capability available. Assessment engaged with medical and other experts alongside a range of representative groups including Housing Benefit the Disability Benefits Consortium, RNIB, Mind and the National Autistic Society among others. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for We are committed to an annual, independent review Work and Pensions what his policy is on the payment of the Work Capability Assessment for the first five of housing benefit to tenants; and what plans he has to years. renew the effectiveness of the scheme under which such payments are made. [1033] Social Security Benefits: Fraud Steve Webb: Housing Benefit in the private rented sector is normally paid to the customer but there are Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work circumstances in which payment is made to the landlord. and Pensions how much his Department budgeted for advertising tackling benefit fraud in each of the last If the customer has rent arrears of eight weeks or three financial years. [1035] more the local authority should make payments to the landlord unless it is in the customer’s overriding interest Chris Grayling: The information is in the table: not to do so. For customers whose benefit is assessed according to Budgeted expenditure for advertising tackling benefit fraud the local housing allowance rules, the local authority £ million can make payments to the landlord if it considers the 2007-08 6.5 customer should be safeguarded because they are unable 2008-09 6.0 or unlikely to manage their rental payments. 2009-10 5.0 Other customers in the private rented sector and Note: those who have tenancies with registered social landlords Includes media costs, PR, production and research costs. It excludes can choose to have their benefit paid to the landlord. VAT. The local authority can also decide to make payment to We are currently reviewing all advertising expenditure the landlord if they consider it to be in the customer’s and requests for further funding will be submitted to best interests. HM Treasury for approval. 163W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 164W

Trade Unions Mr Lidington: There are 13 LCD televisions in Foreign and Commonwealth Office ministerial offices. This Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work constitutes 16 rooms and includes all the Private Offices and Pensions what plans he has to consult trade unions of all the Ministers and offices of Special Advisers. in (a) his Department and (b) its agencies concerning There are no plasma televisions. deficit reduction plans. [617] Departmental Mobile Phones Chris Grayling: My officials met with departmental trade union side on 25 May 2010 to discuss the planned Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign reductions in Government spending. These plans form and Commonwealth Affairs which Ministers in his part of the Government’s wider deficit reduction Department have been issued with (a) a Blackberry, programme. As and when the detailed proposals become (b) an iPhone, (c) another make of mobile telephone available, departmental officials will continue to consult and (d) a personal digital assistant supplied by the with our trade unions at the appropriate level. Department. [1429]

Alistair Burt: At the current time my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has been issued with one FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE official BlackBerry and also has use of an in-car phone. My hon. Friends the Under-Secretary of State Chen Guangcheng (Mr Bellingham), the Minister of State (Mr Browne), the Minister for Europe (Mr Lidington) and I each have Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign one official BlackBerry. and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department My noble Friend Lord Howell does not have an had had discussions with the Government of China on official mobile telephone. the case of Chen Guangcheng; and if he will make a No other mobile phones or personal digital assistants statement. [79] have been issued.

Mr Jeremy Browne: We have raised our concerns Departmental Public Appointments about the case of Chen Guangcheng with the Chinese authorities on three occasions since 2006. One of these occasions was during the UK-China Human Rights Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Dialogue in January 2009, together with the cases of and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) political other human rights defenders. The Chinese responded appointments and (b) other personal appointments he with details of the charges brought against him and of has made since his appointment; and at what estimated his unsuccessful appeal. annual cost to the public purse. [370] We are proposing that this case should next be raised Alistair Burt: I refer the hon. Member to my right at the EU/China Human Rights Dialogue on 29/30 June hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s response of 3 June 2010 where Chen Guangcheng should be included on 2010, Official Report, column 99W. the individual case list. We will continue to monitor this case and raise it when appropriate. Embassies: Buildings Defence Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for to sell property owned by his Department which is used Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what arrangements as British embassies and residences overseas; and if he he has in place to supply the foreign policy component will make a statement. [506] of the Strategic Defence Review. [1014] Alistair Burt: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Alistair Burt: The foundation of the Strategic Defence (FCO) constantly reviews its global Estate in the light and Security Review will be an assessment of Britain’s of changing operational needs to optimise the use of its place in the world, of the threats and opportunities property assets. As a consequence the FCO regularly facing Britain, and how we best defend ourselves against acquires and disposes of its property assets. In 2009 the those threats and exploit those opportunities. That Treasury set the FCO an asset sales target of £25 million assessment will be agreed by the National Security for the financial years 2010-11. Council, and it will determine the broad range of capabilities which we need. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Between 2010-11 and 2013-14 we have identified 106 will continue to supply foreign policy input throughout potentially redundant properties for disposal with a the review. total book value of £71.09 million. This comprises four office buildings, six residences, 86 units of staff accommodation, four plots of land, three amenity Departmental Electronic Equipment complexes and three ancillary buildings. At present we have sold £848,000 with a further £9.8 million awaiting Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign completion. In order to maximise the price received for and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) plasma and the sale of our assets, it is not our policy to provide (b) LCD televisions there are in ministerial offices in exact details of our sales programme, nor the price we his Department. [390] expect to receive in advance of formal marketing. 165W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 166W

We will continue to keep our property portfolio under The UK supports the UN Security Council statement review, ensuring it provides value for money, fitness for of 31 May which underlined the need for sustained and purpose, and security for our staff. regular flow of goods and people to Gaza as well as Details of sales completed are reported quarterly to unimpeded provision and distribution of humanitarian the Foreign Affairs Committee. Book value for each assistance throughout Gaza. property is based on value as assessed by independent We will also continue to impress on the Israeli Chartered Surveyors commissioned to undertake the Government the importance of UN Security Council rolling programme of revaluations. resolution 1860, which calls for sustained delivery of humanitarian aid into Gaza. Linda Carty Mordechai Vanunu

Peter Bottomley: To ask the Secretary of State for Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what consular Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make contact his Department maintains with Linda Carty representations to the Israeli government on the in Mountain View Unit, Gatesville, Texas; what incarceration of Mordechai Vanunu. [1302] assessment he has made of the effectiveness of her legal representation; and if he will make a statement. [1461] Alistair Burt: We are aware of the circumstances surrounding Mr Vanunu’s detention in Israel and continue Alistair Burt: Our consulate general in Houston remains to monitor his case closely. in close contact with Ms Carty and continues to provide her with consular assistance. A consular official last Nuclear Weapons visited Ms Carty on 6 May 2010 and plans to visit her again this month. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for The choice of counsel is up to Ms Carty. But we do Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to his work hard to ensure British prisoners abroad are aware contribution of 26 May 2010, Official Report, column of the range of legal options available to them, and to 181, whether he plans to establish procedures to allow put prisoners potentially facing death sentences in touch the international community to verify the stated with the non-governmental organisation Reprieve, who magnitude of UK nuclear warheads. [1521] look to ensure that they are defended effectively. This must be an extremely difficult time for Ms Carty Alistair Burt: We have no plans to establish procedures and her family.We have been providing consular assistance to allow the international community to verify the UK’s ever since we learned of her case, in August 2002. We nuclear warhead stockpile. The UK has made this continue to support her and her family. We have made announcement in order to be more open, but we have to our concerns about her case known throughout the limit access to military sites in order to protect our legal process, most recently submitting a supporting national security interests and to adhere to safety and brief to the US Supreme Court on her behalf. security measures. The UK recognises the importance of an effective Middle East: Armed Conflict verification regime to achieving the long-term goal of a world without nuclear weapons, and has been pursuing internationally acclaimed research with Norway and Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for the Verification Research, Training and Information Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what estimate his Centre, a non-governmental organization, on the verification Department has made of the number of resolutions of of nuclear warhead dismantlement. the UN Security Council of which the Government of Israel is in breach; and if he will make a statement. Somalia: Piracy [1191] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Alistair Burt [holding answer 7 June 2010]: We have Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment made no such estimate. The UK will continue to impress his Department has made of the level of security of UK upon the Israeli Government the need to act in line with maritime operations in the Gulf of Aden; and if he will their international obligations. make a statement. [1236] My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary made this clear in his statement on 2 June 2010. Alistair Burt: The Government monitors the maritime security situation in areas that present a risk to critical Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for UK trade routes, including the Gulf of Aden. There is a Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will raise at continued risk of pirate attack to those transiting the the UN Security Council the matter of the restrictions region, and we are aware of other maritime activity placed by the Government of Israel on access for including smuggling and drug trafficking. The threat humanitarian aid and reconstruction materials into level in the area increased from the end of 2008 and Gaza; and if he will make a statement. [1194] early 2009 when pirate activity in the Gulf of Aden increased. The Ministry of Defence has conducted maritime Alistair Burt: As my right hon. Friend the Foreign security operations in the region since 2001 through the Secretary made clear in his statement to the House on Combined Maritime Force and offers shipping advice 2 June 2010, the situation in Gaza is unacceptable and to international shipping transiting through the region unsustainable, and is a cause of public concern here in via the UK Maritime Trade Operation. Moreover, specific the United Kingdom and around the world. North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, EU, and Combined 167W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 168W

Maritime Force counter piracy operations have been Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, effectively coordinating shipping activity along an Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) political internationally recommended transit corridor since mid- appointments and (b) other personal appointments he 2009. As a result of these operations, combined with has made since his appointment; and at what estimated increased shipping industry adherence to UN endorsed annual cost to the public purse. [377] best management practices, the number of successful attacks has significantly reduced with only three on Hugh Robertson: I refer the hon. Members to the vessels following this guidance since 2008. The Government answer given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister are concerned, however, by the recent spread of pirate on 3 June 2010, Official Report, column 99W. activity into the wider Indian Ocean. The multi-national operations are currently considering options on how Gambling: Greater London best to address this. Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many gambling licences NORTHERN IRELAND were in effect in (a) Tottenham constituency and (b) Ministerial Policy Advisers Greater London (i) in September 2007 and (ii) on the most recent date for which figures are available; and in Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of which location the licence was issued in each Northern Ireland how many special advisers (a) he case. [1229] and (b) the Minister of State (i) has appointed to date and (ii) plans to appoint. [324] John Penrose: The information requested is not held centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate Mr Paterson: I refer the hon. Member to the answer cost. Under the Gambling Act 2005, local authorities given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on are required to maintain public registers showing the 3 June 2010, Official Report, column 99W. permissions that they have granted.

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT EDUCATION Departmental Manpower Children’s Commissioner for England Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) front-line and (b) other staff were employed by (i) his Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Department and (ii) each of its agencies in the latest what plans he has for the future of the post of year for which figures are available; and what his most Children’s Commissioner. [1218] recent estimate is of the annual cost to the public purse of employing staff of each type at each of those bodies. Sarah Teather: The Government believe it is vital that [531] the voices of children and young people are heard, and will consider how the post of the Children’s Commissioner John Penrose: In the financial year 2009-10, the can help achieve this most effectively. Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) and its agency, The Royal Parks, employed a total of Pupil Premium 580 full-time equivalent staff (455 at the DCMS, 125 at The Royal Parks) at an annual cost of £31,709,234. Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for Education The DCMS does not differentiate between front line when he plans to make an announcement on his plans and other staff. for a pupil premium. [1299] Departmental Official Residences Mr Gibb [holding answer 7 June 2010]: The Government Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, published the document “The Coalition: our Programme Olympics, Media and Sport whether any domestic for Government” on 20 May 2010, which set out our properties in the gift of the Government have been intention for a pupil premium to support disadvantaged allocated to the use of Ministers in his Department. children. The pupil premium will target extra funding [1790] specifically at deprived pupils to enable them to receive the support they need to reach their potential. We will John Penrose: No domestic properties in the gift of publish our proposals with details of how we plan to the Government have been allocated to Ministers at distribute the pupil premium in due course. DCMS. Departmental Public Appointments Pupils: Per Capita Costs

Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many special Education what the (a) per capita and (b) per pupil advisers (a) he and (b) each named Minister in his funding level in the (i) primary and (ii) secondary Department (i) has appointed to date and (ii) plans to sector was in each local education authority in each of appoint. [307] the last five years. [719] 169W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 170W

Mr Gibb: School funding is allocated based upon Local authority revenue funding per pupil pupil numbers, not population numbers, and so the £ Department for Education does not have funding figures 2005-06 on a per capita basis. (baseline) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Since 2006-07, the Dedicated Schools Grant (DSG) East Riding of 3,960 4,060 4,210 4,270 4,410 Yorkshire has been the main source of school funding. As the East Sussex 4,230 4,330 4,530 4,560 4,700 DSG is distributed by the Department through a single guaranteed unit of funding per pupil for each local Enfield 4,770 4,910 5,080 5,100 5,210 authority, a primary/secondary split on a central to Essex 4,130 4,250 4,400 4,450 4,560 local government basis is not available. Gateshead 4,490 4,570 4,720 4,740 4,880 Gloucestershire 3,990 4,110 4,260 4,370 4,480 Per pupil funding figures for 2005-06 to 2009-10 for Greenwich 5,660 5,930 6,130 6,260 6,430 all local authorities in England are provided as follows. Hackney 6,510 6,920 7,070 7,250 7,470 These include the DSG and other grants, are for all Halton 4,680 4,780 4,960 4,960 5,070 funded pupils aged three-19 and are in real terms: Hammersmith 6,050 6,330 6,550 6,490 6,630 and Fulham Local authority revenue funding per pupil Hampshire 3,960 4,070 4,220 4,320 4,430 £ Haringey 5,570 5,640 5,850 5,940 6,020 2005-06 (baseline) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Harrow 4,590 4,800 4,970 5,170 5,200 Hartlepool 4,480 4,600 4,780 4,830 4,910 Barking and 4,960 4,960 5,240 5,270 5,390 Havering 4,370 4,460 4,600 4,670 4,800 Dagenham Herefordshire 3,950 4,100 4,270 4,320 4,450 Barnet 4,810 4,990 5,130 5,200 5,340 Hertfordshire 4,160 4,250 4,400 4,500 4,620 Barnsley 4,160 4,300 4,480 4,480 4,650 Hillingdon 4,620 4,800 4,940 4,990 5,120 Bath and North 4,120 4,240 4,370 4,430 4,570 East Somerset Hounslow 5,010 5,180 5,340 5,380 5,490 Bedfordshire 4,090 4,210 4,350 4,410 — Isle of Wight 4,310 4,520 4,680 4,660 4,810 BedfordBorough————4,680 Islington 6,140 6,430 6,710 6,660 6,810 Central ————4,470 Kensington and 6,420 6,490 6,610 6,530 6,700 Bedfordshire Chelsea Bexley 4,400 4,510 4,670 4,720 4,820 Kent 4,200 4,310 4,460 4,520 4,650 Birmingham 4,830 5,000 5,180 5,240 5,370 Kingston upon 4,500 4,650 4,820 4,870 5,020 Hull, City of Blackburn with 4,700 4,860 5,020 5,040 5,180 Darwen Kingston upon 4,560 4,670 4,790 4,850 4,960 Thames Blackpool 4,310 4,430 4,590 4,620 4,760 Kirklees 4,250 4,380 4,550 4,650 4,800 Bolton 4,280 4,410 4,590 4,600 4,710 Knowsley 4,610 4,800 5,040 5,080 5,310 Bournemouth 4,040 4,150 4,290 4,300 4,450 Lambeth 6,190 6,400 6,620 6,780 7,020 Bracknell Forest 4,180 4,310 4,470 4,500 4,650 Lancashire 4,210 4,320 4,480 4,520 4,660 Bradford 4,450 4,640 4,830 4,870 5,010 Leeds 4,310 4,410 4,560 4,610 4,730 Brent 5,210 5,350 5,590 5,700 5,830 Leicester 4,490 4,660 4,870 4,860 5,040 Brighton and 4,360 4,480 4,640 4,660 4,780 Hove Leicestershire 3,830 3,920 4,050 4,150 4,270 Bristol, City of 4,710 4,890 5,050 5,050 5,130 Lewisham 5,910 6,140 6,310 6,330 6,480 Bromley 4,240 4,350 4,510 4,590 4,730 Lincolnshire 4,120 4,230 4,380 4,410 4,530 Buckinghamshire 4,200 4,310 4,450 4,510 4,640 Liverpool 4,710 4,880 5,080 5,140 5,340 Bury 4,140 4,240 4,390 4,430 4,560 Luton 4,540 4,740 4,920 4,960 5,120 Calderdale 4,250 4,380 4,530 4,570 4,700 Manchester 4,970 5,150 5,410 5,430 5,570 Cambridgeshire 3,950 4,080 4,210 4,280 4,410 Medway 4,280 4,420 4,560 4,600 4,710 Camden 6,580 6,700 6,900 6,910 7,070 Merton 4,550 4,820 4,970 5,010 5,130 Cheshire 4,100 4,200 4,350 4,430 — Middlesbrough 4,690 4,850 5,040 4,960 5,150 CheshireEast————4,450 Milton Keynes 4,310 4,480 4,630 4,710 4,850 Cheshire West ————4,660 Newcastle upon 4,480 4,620 4,800 4,840 4,950 and Chester Tyne Cornwall 3,980 4,120 4,280 4,340 4,500 Newham 5,370 5,650 5,870 5,970 6,140 Coventry 4,470 4,620 4,790 4,790 4,920 Norfolk 4,110 4,210 4,360 4,410 4,540 Croydon 4,490 4,660 4,860 4,910 5,050 North East 4,430 4,560 4,780 4,850 5,050 Cumbria 4,190 4,290 4,430 4,430 4,570 Lincolnshire Darlington 4,270 4,360 4,540 4,550 4,680 North 4,130 4,240 4,390 4,420 4,540 Derby 4,270 4,440 4,610 4,660 4,790 Lincolnshire Derbyshire 4,050 4,170 4,320 4,450 4,590 North Somerset 4,040 4,120 4,260 4,310 4,450 Devon 3,940 4,070 4,220 4,280 4,400 North Tyneside 4,290 4,360 4,490 4,520 4,660 Doncaster 4,330 4,450 4,600 4,630 4,750 North Yorkshire 4,120 4,230 4,370 4,440 4,580 Dorset 4,070 4,160 4,310 4,350 4,480 Northamptonshire 4,020 4,130 4,280 4,360 4,460 Dudley 4,170 4,290 4,460 4,510 4,640 Northumberland 4,130 4,230 4,380 4,400 4,510 Durham 4,360 4,480 4,640 4,730 4,900 Nottingham 4,980 5,110 5,330 5,330 5,430 Ealing 5,200 5,350 5,540 5,620 5,790 Nottinghamshire 4,060 4,150 4,330 4,390 4,500 171W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 172W

Local authority revenue funding per pupil Local authority revenue funding per pupil £ £ 2005-06 2005-06 (baseline) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 (baseline) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10

Oldham 4,460 4,610 4,790 4,820 4,970 Wokingham 4,000 4,160 4,320 4,360 4,520 Oxfordshire 4,100 4,220 4,370 4,410 4,520 Wolverhampton 4,510 4,670 4,860 4,940 5,100 Peterborough 4,410 4,550 4,700 4,790 4,920 Worcestershire 3,970 4,080 4,210 4,300 4,430 Plymouth 4,200 4,350 4,510 4,540 4,670 York 4,050 4,120 4,260 4,360 4,500 Poole 3,990 4,090 4,230 4,250 4,370 Notes: Portsmouth 4,300 4,430 4,600 4,650 4,800 1. This covers funding through the Dedicated Schools Grant, School Standards Grant, School Standards Grant (Personalisation) and Reading 4,450 4,720 4,920 4,870 5,030 Standards Fund as well as funding from the Learning and Skills Redbridge 4,400 4,580 4,770 4,820 4,960 Council; it excludes grants which are not allocated at LA level. Redcar and 4,410 4,510 4,670 4,750 4,930 2. Price Base: Real term figures using 31 March 2010 GDP Deflators Cleveland at 2008-09 prices. Richmond upon 4,440 4,560 4,690 4,750 4,880 3. These figures are for all funded pupils aged three-19. Thames 4. Rounding: Per pupil figures are rounded to the nearest £10. 5. Figures exclude Isles of Scilly and City of London. Rochdale 4,540 4,680 4,860 4,900 5,050 6. From 2009-10 due to Local Government re-organisation, Rotherham 4,450 4,530 4,700 4,730 4,860 Bedfordshire split to become Bedford borough and Central Rutland 4,210 4,310 4,440 4,400 4,530 Bedfordshire and Cheshire became Cheshire East and Cheshire West Salford 4,700 4,860 5,060 5,050 5,220 and Chester. Sandwell 4,520 4,710 4,900 4,890 4,980 Seaham School of Technology Sefton 4,370 4,420 4,570 4,590 4,740 Sheffield 4,200 4,390 4,570 4,650 4,780 Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State Shropshire 3,980 4,070 4,220 4,240 4,370 for Education if he will ensure that planned funding for Slough 4,740 4,900 5,070 5,130 5,270 Seaham School of Technology under the Building Solihull 3,910 4,100 4,210 4,270 4,420 Schools for the Future programme is maintained. [876] Somerset 3,990 4,080 4,230 4,350 4,480 South 3,880 3,970 4,110 4,150 4,230 Mr Gibb: The Department is reviewing the Building Gloucestershire Schools for the Future programme to ensure that when South Tyneside 4,560 4,640 4,820 4,910 5,090 we build schools for the future, we do so in a more Southampton 4,350 4,530 4,700 4,750 4,850 cost-effective and efficient fashion. Southend-on-Sea 4,350 4,460 4,590 4,640 4,800 Southwark 6,000 6,440 6,640 6,650 6,770 Trade Unions St Helens 4,390 4,440 4,630 4,640 4,810 Staffordshire 3,990 4,080 4,230 4,290 4,420 Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Stockport 4,080 4,180 4,320 4,410 4,560 Education what plans he has to consult trade unions in Stockton-on- 4,400 4,470 4,640 4,620 4,760 his Department on cost reduction plans. [603] Tees Stoke-on-Trent 4,480 4,620 4,770 4,800 4,930 Michael Gove: Officials and Ministers meet regularly Suffolk 3,970 4,100 4,260 4,320 4,470 with the recognised trade unions to discuss a variety of Sunderland 4,390 4,470 4,630 4,680 4,820 issues including Machinery of Government changes. I Surrey 4,090 4,240 4,370 4,450 4,580 hold meetings with the recognised trade unions on a six Sutton 4,500 4,590 4,740 4,810 4,950 monthly basis and informal meetings are taking place Swindon 3,970 4,110 4,250 4,310 4,430 with the Department’s Head of Employee Relations Tameside 4,230 4,360 4,520 4,560 4,660 and the Trade Union Side Chair. Telford and 4,160 4,300 4,510 4,510 4,650 Wrekin The trade unions met the permanent secretary on Thurrock 4,290 4,500 4,670 4,700 4,860 24 May to discuss current plans and another meeting has been offered before the start of the summer recess. Torbay 4,170 4,280 4,440 4,460 4,580 Tower Hamlets 6,680 7,020 7,280 7,350 7,540 Trafford 4,110 4,200 4,340 4,410 4,560 Wakefield 4,190 4,350 4,510 4,550 4,630 COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Walsall 4,350 4,510 4,690 4,700 4,810 Waltham Forest 4,970 5,180 5,340 5,330 5,490 Departmental Manpower Wandsworth 5,440 5,650 5,880 5,980 6,190 Warrington 3,990 4,090 4,250 4,320 4,450 Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Warwickshire 4,010 4,130 4,270 4,320 4,450 Communities and Local Government how many (a) West Berkshire 4,250 4,390 4,530 4,570 4,700 special advisers and (b) press officers are employed by West Sussex 4,060 4,170 4,310 4,370 4,470 his Department at each Civil Service pay grade. [1273] Westminster 5,540 6,040 6,310 6,260 6,370 Wigan 4,220 4,300 4,470 4,510 4,640 Robert Neill: With regard to special advisers, I refer Wiltshire 3,910 4,060 4,200 4,250 4,390 the hon. Member to the answer given by the Prime Windsor and 4,280 4,420 4,580 4,630 4,770 Minister on 3 June 2010, Official Report, column 99W. Maidenhead The total number of press officers and their civil Wirral 4,340 4,420 4,610 4,630 4,770 service pay grades are set out in the following table: 173W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 174W

24 May 2010 on spending announcements, for which Pay grade Number of officers local authority in England (a) what is the amount in Information officer 7 pounds sterling of the authority’s aggregate external Senior information officer 8 finance which is liable to be reduced and (b) what Grade 7 4 percentage of aggregate external finance this represents Grade 6 1 in the case of each such local authority. [1523]

Departmental Mobile Phones Robert Neill: An announcement on the specific grant streams that will be reduced in 2010-11 will be made Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for shortly. Communities and Local Government which Ministers in his Department have been issued with (a) a Blackberry, Local Government Finance: North East (b) an iPhone, (c) another make of mobile telephone and (d) a personal digital assistant supplied by the Department. [1436] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government by how much Robert Neill: Since the arrival of the new Government, and in what proportion he expects to amend the grant this Department has issued a total of five BlackBerrys from his Department to each local authority in the to the following Ministers: North East in order to contribute to the projected Mr Eric Pickles; reduction in his Department’s expenditure in 2010-11. Mr Andrew Stunell; [1394] Mr Bob Neill; Baroness Hanham; and Robert Neill: An announcement on the specific grant Mr Grant Shapps. streams that will be reduced in 2010-11 will be made shortly. To date no other mobile device has been issued to CLG ministers. Local Government: Public Consultation Derelict Land and Green Belt Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State Communities and Local Government what mechanism for Communities and Local Government when he will be used to enable people in a local authority area to plans to publish separate guidance on the preservation veto a proposed rise in council tax above a defined level. of green belts in local plans; and against what criteria [1631] local authorities should make decisions affecting the Green Belt before such guidance is published. [968] Robert Neill: We will give residents the power to veto Robert Neill: Policy on Green Belt is currently set out excessive council tax rises that go above a set threshold. in Planning Policy Guidance Note 2, “Green Belts” We will set out our proposals on the threshold and the (PPG2), published in 1995. Local planning authorities mechanism for initiating a referendum in a consultation must have regard to PPG2 when preparing local plans. document later this year. PPG2 also establishes a presumption against inappropriate development on green belt. If a proposal for such Mayors development is received, the local planning authority should consider whether any harm to the green belt would be outweighed by other considerations, and whether Chris Leslie: To ask the Secretary of State for very special circumstances exist to justify planning Communities and Local Government when he expects permission. each planned city referendum on elected mayoral authorities to take place. [1069] In the Coalition Agreement the Government stated that they will publish and present to Parliament a simple and consolidated national planning framework Robert Neill: We are committed to implementing as covering all forms of development. Announcements on soon as practicable our programme for Government the future of planning policy will be made in due which we published on 20 May, including our commitment course. However, the agreement also undertakes to ensure that we will create directly elected mayors in the 12 largest that the protection of green belt by local planning cities in England, subject to confirmatory referendums. authorities is maintained. We have also effectively suspended the operation of Ordnance Survey regional spatial strategies and their associated housing targets, which created top-down pressure to review green Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for belt boundaries. We will now move to formally abolish Communities and Local Government what plans he RSS. has for the future ownership of Ordnance Survey. [995] Local Government Finance Robert Neill: Ordnance Survey is Great Britain’s Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for national mapping agency and its data underpin the Communities and Local Government with reference delivery of many vital public services. I am not considering to the speech by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on changes to the ownership of Ordnance Survey. 175W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 176W

Planning Obligations David Mundell: In terms of Special Advisers, I refer the hon. Member to the answer given on 3 June 2010, Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Official Report, column 99W, to the hon. Member for Communities and Local Government whether he plans Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). The Scotland Office to review the operation of section 106 of the Town and currently has two permanent Press Office staff; one at Country Planning Act 1990. [1760] the former Grade 7 level and one equivalent to Higher Executive Officer level. Robert Neill: The Government are currently consulting on a policy document concerning the operation of section 106 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990, which closes on 21 June 2010. Announcements on ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE the future of the related Community Infrastructure Levy (CIL) will be made in due course. National Grid

Second Homes and Holiday Accommodation Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate his Department Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for has made of the distribution losses of electricity over Communities and Local Government if he will review the National Grid in each of the last five years. [718] the (a) planning and (b) taxation rules in respect of (i) second and (ii) holiday homes to control the prevalence Charles Hendry: According to Ofgem, the estimated of such properties. [991] losses over the electricity distribution network for the last five years were as follows: Robert Neill: My Department has no current plans to review the (a) planning (b) taxation rules in respect of Percentage (i) second homes and (ii) holiday homes. 2004-05 5 2005-06 5.1 Standards Board for England 2006-07 4.9 2007-08 5.2 Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008-09 5.3 Communities and Local Government what timetable he has set for his plans to abolish the Standards Board Ofgem sets an output-based incentive in order to for England. [1469] encourage Distribution Network Operators (DNOs) to manage losses both through low loss technology but Robert Neill: We will implement our commitment in also through network operations or network users as our Programme for Government to abolish the Standards well as incentivising them to identify ways to tackle the Board regime as soon as practicable, and hence intend issue of theft. to include provisions in the Bill which will devolve National Grid estimates that the proportion of electricity greater powers to councils, announced in the Queen’s generated lost over the GB transmission network is 2% Speech for this parliamentary session, to repeal the of the total energy transferred across the network. provisions of the Local Government Act 2000 which established the Standards Board for England.

DEFENCE

PRIME MINISTER Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations

Sovereignty Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what definition his Department uses of a successful Chris Leslie: To ask the Prime Minister which Minister completion of the armed forces’ operations in is responsible for examining the case for a UK Sovereignty Afghanistan. [1501] Bill. [1077] Dr Fox: We will have successfully completed our The Prime Minister: My right hon. Friend the Secretary military operations when Afghanistan is stable enough of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to manage its own internal and external security without (Mr Hague) is the Minister responsible. the support of the international community. Only when Afghanistan can prevent itself from reverting to a base from which terrorists can threaten us will our mission be complete and our troops will be able to come home. SCOTLAND Armed Forces: Recruitment Departmental Manpower Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for how many service personnel have been recruited into Scotland how many (a) special advisers and (b) press the (a) Royal Air Force, (b) RoyalNavyand(c) Army officers are employed by his Department; and at what in (i) England, (ii) Scotland, (iii) Northern Ireland and Civil Service pay grade in each such case. [1285] (iv) Wales in each of the last five years. [668] 177W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 178W

Mr Robathan: The numbers of personnel recruited Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has no plans into the armed forces in each of the last five years are as to change the long standing arrangement whereby the follows: United Kingdom funds 78% of the Commonwealth Royal Air Force War Graves Commission costs, which is proportionate 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 to the number of war casualties the United Kingdom sustained during what are considered the war years. England 1,338 1,585 2,541 3,882 3,712 This year’s United Kingdom funding is in excess of Scotland 104 134 207 300 287 £42 million. Northern 22 28 36 25 30 The Commonwealth War Graves Commission have Ireland already outlined their requirements for their next three Wales 56 50 116 242 209 year financial cycle, including a number of proposals Royal Navy/Royal Marines for additional projects. These will be developed and 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 considered in conjunction with the Commission and the contributing nations, with a view to reaching an agreed England 3,251 3,265 3,345 3,581 3,579 budget later this year. Scotland 314 287 277 330 284 We remain committed to ensuring that those who Northern 204 163 180 204 206 died during the two world wars, and the men and Ireland women who have died while serving in HM armed Wales 42 57 48 47 49 forces in subsequent years, continue to be commemorated Centrally 54 42 85 98 56 with the same honour and dignity as hitherto and which recruited they so richly deserve. Notes: 1. Officers are recruited through six Regional Officer Careers Liaison Defence Centres (OCLC) in Rosyth, Peterborough, Plymouth, London, Manchester and Belfast. Candidates will normally be sent to the OCLC nearest to them, therefore officer candidates from Wales would normally be Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence processed through OCLC Manchester and cannot, therefore be separated what the names are of those participating in the strategic from the candidates from England processed through that OCLC. defence review; and when he expects that review to be 2. ’Centrally recruited’ refers to specialist officer candidates who are completed. [1092] processed centrally i.e. doctors, dentists, chaplains and QARNNS officer. Army—Other Ranks Dr Fox: Within the Ministry of Defence (MOD), a 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 team of about 30 people, the final membership of which will be determined soon, is being established to coordinate England n/a 9,761 9,823 10,664 10,036 the Defence contribution to the Strategic Defence Spending Scotland n/a 1,022 754 840 1,148 Review (SDSR). A wide range of personnel across the Northern n/a 246 256 293 316 MOD and armed forces will participate in developing Ireland that contribution. The SDSR will run in parallel and Wales n/a 944 894 917 871 underpin the spending review. These will report in a n/a = Not Available coordinated way towards the end of this year.

Army—Officers Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Defence what estimate he has made of the likely effect Total 752 707 712 713 645 on the (a) number of and (b) number of hours worked by officials of his Department of the proposal Due to the way Army Officers are recruited, data is to hold a strategic defence review in every Parliament. only available as a total and not by country. [1153]

Chiefs of Staff Dr Fox: This will be part of the Department’s core work and is not separately identifiable. Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence Support Group what the cost to the public purse was of travel by the (a) Chief of the General Staff and (b) Vice-Chief of Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for the Defence Staff in the last 12 months. [1044] Defence what plans he has for future ownership Ian Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence arrangements of the Defence Support Group. [1390] what the cost to the public purse was of travel by the Peter Luff: Defence activity is being reviewed in the (a) (b) Chief of the Air Staff and First Sea Lord in context of the Strategic Defence and Security Review the last 12 months. [1040] and the Spending Review. It would be premature to speculate about the impact of these reviews on any Mr Robathan: I will write to the hon. Members with aspect of defence activity, including the Defence Support the information requested. Group, at this stage. Commonwealth War Graves Commission Departmental Billing

Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Stewart Hosie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what plans he has for the future of the Government Defence what percentage of invoices from suppliers to grant to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission; his Department were paid within 10 days of receipt in and if he will make a statement. [1046] (a) March and (b) April 2010. [1262] 179W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 180W

Mr Robathan: Performance figures for March and The composition of the private offices of the Under- April 2010, against the Government’s agreed 10-day Secretary of State and Lords spokesman on defence is payment target, are shown in the following table: yet to be finalised. There are also two military officers at OF4 rank and one at OF5 in the Ministers’ private Percentage of invoices paid offices. 2010 within 10 days of receipt

March 97.98 Departmental Official Cars April 98.67 The figures provided represent invoices processed by Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the Ministry of Defence (MOD) Financial Management how many Government (a) cars and (b) drivers are Shared Service Centre and the four MOD trading funds: allocated to Ministers in his Department. [290] Defence Science and Technology Laboratory Dr Fox: None. I am driven and protected by the Meteorological Office Metropolitan police. Junior Defence Ministers draw on Defence Support Group the Ministry of Defence pool of drivers and cars as the UK Hydrographic Office. Department has dispensed with the individual drivers allocated to Ministers in the previous Government. Departmental Electronic Equipment Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence what estimate he has made of the effect on his how many (a) plasma and (b) LCD televisions there Department’s expenditure on official cars for (a) civil are in ministerial offices in his Department. [385] servants and (b) service personnel in 2010-11 of the Chancellor of the Exchequer’s announcement on Dr Fox: There are six plasma televisions in ministerial Government spending on 24 May 2010. [1165] offices in the Ministry of Defence. This is the same as the number inherited from the previous Government. Mr Robathan: The Government are committed to saving at least 25% of the running costs of Defence. Departmental Manpower This includes reductions in the cost of official transport and business travel. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Total Defence expenditure in 2010-11, however, is not how many full-time equivalent staff at each Civil Service affected by the announcement of the Chancellor of the grade are employed in the private office of each Minister Exchequer on 24 May 2010, any savings made are being in his Department. [127] recycled within Defence. This will apply to any expenditure that might be saved in respect to official cars. Dr Fox: 18 full-time equivalent civil service staff are currently employed in the Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) six ministerial offices. The following shows the breakdown Departmental Public Expenditure of each MOD civil service grade employed in the private office of each Minister. Mr Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Secretary of State for Defence when and in what form he plans to publish a list of all SCS PB1 items of expenditure by his Department over £25,000. B1 [270] B2 C1 Dr Fox: The Prime Minister has written to Cabinet D Ministers reiterating transparency commitments made in the coalition programme for government, and setting Minister of State for the Armed Forces out a timetable for achieving them. In particular, all B2 new items of central Government spending over £25,000 C1 will be published online in an open format from November D 2010. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and Minister for Defence Personnel, Welfare and Veterans France B2 C2 Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence D (1) what the cost to the public purse was of (a) Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and Minister accommodation and (b) travel of the Minister for for Defence Equipment, Support and Technology Veterans’ visit to France on 29 and 30 May 2010; and B2 what the cost to the public purse was in respect of C1x2 officials of his Department of (i) accommodation, D (ii) travel and (iii) wages; [1151] Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State and Minister (2) what the cost to the public purse was of (a) for International Security Strategy accommodation, (b) subsistence and (c) wages of C1 drivers deployed in respect of the Minister for C2 Veterans’ visit to France on the weekend of 29 May D 2010. [1152] 181W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 182W

Mr Robathan: The net additional cost to the public Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for purse for my attendance as Minister for Defence Personnel, Defence what plans he has for the future of the Met Welfare and Veterans at the commemorations of the Office; and if he will make a statement. [1057] 70th anniversary of Dunkirk was approximately £810, using the most cost effective and efficient methods. This Mr Robathan: Defence activity is being reviewed in is broken down as follows: the context of the strategic defence and security review Cost and the spending review. It would be premature to £ speculate about any impact on the Met Office at this Item Minister Officials Total stage.

Accommodation 0 88 88 Met Office and United Kingdom Hydrographic Office Subsistence 12 48 60 Drivers’ wages 0 433 433 Travel (ferry) 179 1— 2229 Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State (fuel) 50 1— 2— for Defence how many staff at the (a) Met Office and (b) Hydrographic Office earn more than £100,000. Total 241 569 810 [1041] 1 Included in ferry and fuel costs 2 Indicates brace Low Flying Mr Robathan: Details of the remuneration of the Met Office’s and United Kingdom Hydrographic Office’s Executive Directors are published in their annual report Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Secretary of State and accounts. These show that in 2008-09, three members for Defence in respect of how many wind farm of the UKHO Executive and four members of the Met developments (a) in North Carmarthenshire and (b) Office Executive were paid more than £100,000. Outside nationally his Department has made an agreement with of the Executive, no staff are paid more than £100,000. the developer providing that low-flying aircraft activity (i) may and (ii) may not take place in the vicinity of the Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for development. [964] Defence what the remuneration and benefit arrangements are of the non-executive directors of the (a) Met Office Mr Robathan: Wind farm developers do not control and (b) Hydrographic Office. [1042] the airspace within which their equipment is sited and the Ministry of Defence (MOD) does not have to approach them for authority to operate low flying aircraft Mr Robathan: Details of the remuneration and benefits in the vicinity of the wind farms. for the non-executive directors of the Met Office and UK Hydrographic Office are published annually in the If a proposed development raises potential low flying respective Trading Fund annual report and accounts. concerns, MOD will always do everything practical to work with the developers to find mutually acceptable Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence solutions wherever possible. That said, military aircraft how much his Department spent on hotel do not usually operate in close proximity to wind farms accommodation for staff of the (a) Met Office and (b) and will always maintain the appropriate minimum Hydrographic Office in the last 12 months. [1051] separation distance. Since 2001 the Department has objected to 14 wind Mr Robathan: During the financial year 2009-10 the farm planning applications on the basis of low-flying United Kingdom Hydrographic Office spent £550,000 concerns, none of which fall within North Carmarthenshire. on hotel accommodation and the Met Office £560,000. It is not possible to identify from available records the number of cases where low-flying concerns have been overcome as a result of mitigation discussions. Phil Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many staff at the (a) Met Office and (b) Hydrographic Met Office Office are entitled to use official cars. [1053]

Phil Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr Robathan: No one at the Met Office is automatically (1) how much his Department spent on (a) rail, (b) entitled to use an official car. However the Met Office road and (c) air travel by staff of the Met Office in the has 10 pool cars which are available for use by any last 12 months; [1052] member of staff, when necessary, in order to minimise (2) how much his Department spent on air travel of transport costs. each class for Met Office staff in the last 12 months. The United Kingdom Hydrographic Office has one [1054] pool car which is available for use by the 15 members of the Executive Committee and main board; and by others Mr Robathan: The Met Office is a global provider of at the discretion of the chief executive. Overseas visitors weather and climate services with customers located also make use of this facility when available in order to across the UK and overseas. It provides vital operational minimise transport costs. support to the armed forces, as well as to emergency responders during periods of severe weather and other Mark Tami: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence environmental incidents. As the UK’s National what the remuneration and benefits arrangements are Meteorological Service, the Met Office also has a number of the chief executive of the (a) Met Office and (b) of international obligations placed upon it by the World Hydrographic Office; and if he will make a statement. Meteorological Organization. [1055] 183W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 184W

Mr Robathan: Details around the remuneration and Mr Watts: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence benefits for the chief executives of the Met Office and what plans he has for the future of the Hydrographic UK Hydrographic Office are published annually in the Office; and if he will make a statement. [1056] respective agency annual report and accounts. Mr Robathan: A review of the arrangements for Military Aircraft: Procurement delivering charting and navigational services by the United Kingdom Hydrographic Office was initiated Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for earlier this year. This work will be aligned with the Defence what aircraft will replace the Nimrod R1. Strategic Defence and Security Review. It would be premature to speculate about the outcome of the review [1462] at this stage. Peter Luff: On 22 March 2010 the Ministry of Defence made an announcement that the Nimrod R1 would be replaced by US Air Force Rivet Joint RC-135 aircraft and associated ground systems. Following the new DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Government’s announcement to audit all spending decisions taken since 1 January this year, this decision is currently Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority under review. Furthermore, as part of the Strategic Defence and Security Review work has been set in hand Mr Winnick: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister to review all major equipment and support contracts to (1) what senior posts, at what salary bands, the ensure the future programme is coherent with future Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority has defence needs and can be afforded. advertised in the last two months; [1309] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what the annual salary of the Chief Executive of Defence what recent discussions he has had with the the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is; US Administration on the purchase of the RC 135 and to what other remuneration he is entitled; [1325] Rivet Joint aircraft. [1463] (3) what information he has received from the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority Peter Luff: I have not met the US Administration to (IPSA) on (a) the number of days each week the Chair discuss the purchase of the Rivet Joint system. However, is contracted to the Authority, (b) the functions the officials of both countries are in regular communication. Chair undertakes, (c) the (i) salary he receives and (ii) other remuneration he is eligible for; and whether (1) he and (2) Ministerial colleagues have discussed with the United Kingdom Hydrographic Office Chair of the IPSA the administrative mechanisms for processing claims of hon. Members; [1402] Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence (4) what information he has received from the how much his Department spent on air travel of each Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority on class by staff at the Hydrographic Office. [1038] (a) the number of staff it employs, (b) the number of its staff paid salaries of over £40,000 annually and (c) Mr Robathan: Air costs information is not collected the number of staff eligible for bonus payments; [1403] by class of travel; an analysis by class cannot therefore (5) what discussions he has had with the Chair of the be provided without incurring disproportionate cost. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority on However current United Kingdom Hydrographic Office the (a) arrangements and (b) venue for hon. Members (UKHO) policy requires the use of economy class to meet senior officers of the Authority to seek advice; unless approved by the chief executive. During the and how many requests the Authority has received period 1 June 2009 to 31 May 2010, a total of £807,300 from hon. Members for such meetings; [1404] was expended on air travel reflecting the international focus of UKHO business activity. (6) what discussions he has had with the Chair of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority on the Authority’s policy on publishing on its website the Ian Lavery: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence details of each claim authorised for payment to hon. how much his Department spent on (a) rail, (b) road Members immediately upon approval. [1405] and (c) air travel by staff of the Hydrographic Office in the last 12 months. [1043] Mr Harper: Questions about the internal workings of Mr Robathan: Expenditure during the period 1 April the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority 2009 to 31 March 2010 was: are a matter for the Authority itself. The Deputy Prime Minister has policy responsibility for the Independent Transport type Cost (£000) Parliamentary Standards Authority.

Rail 78.3 Young People Road 189.6 Air 811.5 John Robertson: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if Road travel covers mileage payments made for the he will bring forward proposals to encourage the use of private vehicles on official business, car hire and engagement of young people in the political process. taxis. [1352] 185W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 186W

Mr Harper: The Government believe that many of Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers the proposals in its constitutional and political reform agenda will help to encourage involvement by young Helen Goodman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet people in our democracy. Office how many special advisers (a) he and (b) each The Electoral Commission has a statutory responsibility other Minister assigned to responsibilities in his to run public awareness campaigns to promote voter Department (i) has appointed to date and (ii) plans to registration and to provide information on electoral appoint. [327] events. In pursuit of this, the Electoral Commission recently ran public awareness campaigns in the lead up Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer to the general election to encourage people to register to given by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister on vote. The campaign was targeted at groups less likely to 3 June 2010, Official Report, column 99W. be on the electoral register, particularly 18 to 24 year-olds and led to more than half a million electoral registration forms being downloaded from the Commission’s website. Departmental Responsibilities The campaign included work on social networking websites as well as advertising on television, radio and Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet in the press. The Electoral Commission has also funded Office what plans he has for the future of the (a) Prime other organisations working to increase democratic Minister’s Strategy Unit, (b) National School of participation among young people, through its partnership Government and (c) Central Office of Information; grants programme. These organisations include Barnardos, and if he will make a statement. [18] the Prince’s Trust and UK Youth Parliament. Mr Maude: I have no current plans.

CABINET OFFICE Non-departmental Public Bodies Government Departments: Recruitment

14. Brandon Lewis: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what mechanisms he plans to use to review the Office what steps he is taking to reduce Government effectiveness of non-departmental public bodies. [1355] expenditure on recruitment advertising. [26]

Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the reply Mr Maude: The Government are committed to reducing I gave earlier today. expenditure on recruitment advertising across the Civil Service. We have implemented a recruitment freeze across Admiralty Arch the Civil Service, which tightly restricts external recruitment to the Fast Stream, business critical posts and other Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet frontline posts that should save up to £145 million for Office whether he plans to derive revenue for the public 2010-11. We have also implemented restrictions on purse from the apartments in Admiralty Arch held by marketing and advertising spend, which includes the Government. [622] recruitment campaigns, and are expected to deliver savings in the region of £160 million in 2010-11. These Mr Maude: There are no apartments in Admiralty restrictions will take effect immediately across all Arch as this is only an office building. government departments, agencies and NDPBs. Departmental Catering Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office if he will place in the Library a copy of the menus for the canteen in 10 Downing Street for the week of Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 17 May 2010. [573] Office (1) how many special advisers of each nationality are employed by Government departments; [1369] Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office total facilities (2) how many non-UK citizens are employed as management provider contracted by the previous special advisers by Government departments; [1370] Government supplies food for catering facilities across (3) what advice his Department issues to other the Cabinet Office estate. A copy of the Cabinet Office Government department’s on the employment of non-UK menu for the week beginning 17 May 2010 has been citizens as special advisers. [1371] placed in the House Library. Departmental Electronic Equipment Mr Maude: The numbers of special advisers by each nationality, including non-UK citizens, employed as Mr Watson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet special advisers by Government departments is not held Office how many (a) plasma and (b) LCD televisions centrally. there are in ministerial offices in his Department. [382] Special Advisers as temporary civil servants are bound by the civil service nationality rules. A copy of the rules Mr Maude: There are three LCD televisions in ministerial can be accessed at offices in the Cabinet Office. These were all purchased http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/resources/ before the current Government took office. nationality.aspx 187W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 188W

TREASURY Child Trust Fund

Mr Umunna: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Banks (1) how many children in Streatham constituency have received assistance from the Child Trust Fund; [1088] Christopher Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects to establish an independent (2) what steps his Department takes in respect of commission on the separation of retail and investment stakeholder accounts into which child trust fund banking; what discussions he has had with potential vouchers have not been paid by the child’s parents commissioners on that matter; and if he will make a within one year of issue. [1089] statement. [1076] Mr Hoban: The annual statistical information on Mr Hoban: The independent banking commission Child Trust Fund accounts, including constituency and will be established under the auspices of, and will report regional level data, can be viewed on HMRC’s website: its findings to, the Cabinet Banking Reform Committee. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ctf/stats.htm It will be established as quickly as practically possible. The data shows that 9,626 children born on or before The Government will make further announcements in 5 April 2008 in the Streatham constituency have a Child due course. Trust Fund account, of which 2,581 were opened by HMRC. Bradford & Bingley If the parents or guardians of a child that received a voucher under the scheme have not opened an account within a year of the voucher being issued, HM Revenue Dr Pugh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) and Customs will have opened a stakeholder account what his policy is on the status of subordinated for them. bondholders in Bradford & Bingley in the event of settlement; [1128] (2) which former private banking and financial assets Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation are in public ownership. [1234]

Mr Hoban: The Government wholly owns the following Richard Harrington: To ask the Chancellor of the three banks: Bradford & Bingley plc; Northern Rock Exchequer what steps his Department is taking in plc; and, Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc. The respect of payment of compensation to Equitable Life Government partially owns the following two banks: policyholders. [1002] Royal Bank of Scotland plc and Lloyds Banking Group plc. Mr Hoban: The Government have pledged to make The Government’s shareholdings in all the above five fair and transparent payment to Equitable Life banks are managed by UKFI (United Kingdom Financial policyholders, through an independently designed payment Investments Ltd) whose objectives are to maximise scheme, for their relative loss as a result of regulatory taxpayer value, help maintain financial stability and failure. promote banking competition. The Queen’s Speech announced the Government’s The subordinated bonds issued by Bradford & Bingley intention to introduce a Bill in the first session of plc (B&B) are not covered by the Treasury wholesale Parliament to enable payments to be made to Equitable deposit guarantee arrangements announced on Life policyholders. 29 September 2008. Payments of these bonds, including On the same day, the Government also announced interest, are entirely a matter for the board of B&B. that an independent commission would be established The company announced on 23 February 2010 that it to determine scheme design. will defer payment (principal and interest) on its These steps are a sign of the Government’s commitment subordinated bonds until the £18.4 billion statutory to deliver on their pledge. debt owed to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS) and the Treasury is repaid. The deferral Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Chancellor of the of the payments of these bonds is part of the condition Exchequer what timetable has been set in respect of ex for which EC state aid approval was granted on gratia payments to equitable Life policyholders who 25 January 2010. experienced losses. [1026]

Business: Closures Mr Hoban: We will establish an independently designed payment scheme that is transparent and fair to both taxpayers and policyholders. Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many of the limited liability companies which Sir John Chadwick is due to submit his final report to ceased operations in the last financial year owed money the Treasury by mid-July. While Sir John finalises his to HM Revenue and Customs. [1018] report, the Government will consult with others on the next stage of the process. Mr Gauke: The information requested is not readily The Government will then publish Sir John’s report available and could be provided only at a disproportionate alongside a detailed update, giving next steps towards cost. implementing an independently designed payment scheme. 189W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 190W

Excise Duties: Fuels VAT

Kate Hoey: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Chancellor of the (1) what his policy is on the taxation of road fuel; Exchequer what estimate he has made of the cost to [1493] businesses of implementing the recent temporary (2) if he will initiate a public consultation on reform reduction in the rate of value added tax. [1139] of the taxation of road fuel; [1494] Mr Gauke: The previous administration published an (3) if he will introduce a road fuel discount scheme impact assessment at the 2008 pre-Budget report, available for drivers in rural areas. [1495] at: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/pbr08_vat_1845.pdf Justine Greening: The main rate of fuel duty is currently 57.19p per litre. Under plans set out by the previous The November 2008 impact assessment estimated Government, it is scheduled to rise by: that the total cost for businesses in implementing the reduction at £175 million and the cost of the reversion 1p per litre on 1 October 2010; at £125 million. 0.76p per litre on 1 January 2011; and HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) has commissioned 1p per litre above inflation each year thereafter until 2014. research to look at the actual costs of complying with The coalition Government have committed to investigate the VAT rate reduction and rate reversion. The findings measures to help with fuel costs in remote rural areas. of this work will be published in line with HMRC’s The Chancellor keeps all taxes under review. stated publication policy following their expected completion later this year. Office for Budget Responsibility

Dr Pugh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what factors he took into account when appointing Sir BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Alan Budd as head of the Office for Budgetary Aimhigher Programme Responsibility. [982] Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Mr Hoban: Sir Alan Budd was appointed on the basis for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent of his skills and experience in macroeconomics and representations he has received on the future of the fiscal policy. Aimhigher programme. [474] Tax Allowances: Married People Mr Willetts [holding answer 2 June 2010]: To date, I have received one letter about the future of the Aimhigher Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer programme, which is from the hon. Member. what estimate he has made of the number and proportion of households in (a) the UK and (b) Bristol East Alcoholic Drinks: Prices constituency who will be eligible for the proposed transferable tax allowance for married couples. [1093] Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what role the Government has in Mr Gauke: The Government have not announced (a) determining the legal implications of setting a their plans for recognising marriage in the tax system, minimum price per unit of alcohol in Scotland and (b) and therefore it is not possible to provide the estimates ensuring that implementation is compatible with EU that you ask for. Proposals will be brought forward by competition law. [1522] the Chancellor at the appropriate time. Mr Davey: The Scottish Government’s Alcohol etc Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Scotland) Bill is currently being considered by the what his policy is on the recognition of marriage in the Scottish Parliament. At this stage, it is for the Scottish taxation system. [1185] Government to respond to the questions that have been raised about the Bill and to ensure its legislation and Mr Gauke: Proposals that recognise marriage and actions are compatible with EU law and within competence. civil partnerships in the income tax system will be brought forward by the Chancellor at the appropriate Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for time. Business, Innovation and Skills what legal advice he has received regarding the minimum pricing per unit of Taxation: Financial Services alcohol; and what steps he is taking to ensure that minimum price setting is compatible with (a) domestic Mr Allen: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and (b) EU competition law. [1524] what steps he is taking to introduce a levy on financial transactions in the UK. [1291] Mr Davey: As part of the Government’s work in examining options for tackling harms associated with Mr Hoban: We are working with international partners, excessive consumption of alcohol, the Department for looking at all the options, and will be taking note of the Business, Innovation and Skills has considered the legal International Monetary Fund’s report on how the financial issues associated with a minimum unit price for alcohol. sector can make a fair and substantial contribution. We The Department will continue to contribute to the will introduce a banking levy as detailed in the coalition Government’s work in this area, including advising how agreement. competition law relates to any proposed measures. 191W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 192W

Apprentices: Bexley Mr Hayes: The announcements on savings to reduce the fiscal deficit made by the Government on 24 May Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, 2010 included a reduction of £200 million in the train to Innovation and Skills what recent assessment his gain budget in 2010-11, however this resource is being Department has made of levels of demand for reinvested in more apprenticeship places and further apprenticeships in the London Borough of Bexley. [458] education capital projects. We will set out our plans for future years, including details of any ring-fences, in the Mr Hayes: We know that the demand from young forthcoming Spending Review. In general, we will aim people and adults for good quality employer-owned to enable each of the sectors we fund to plan ahead with apprenticeships is high. Last year, there were 800 starts comparative certainty, although every Government needs in Bexley and there have already been 500 starts in the to retain a capacity, subject to parliamentary scrutiny, first half of this academic year (up to 31 January). to be able to respond to changing circumstances. We intend to increase the number of apprenticeship places for people of all ages, and we are committed to Further Education: Student Numbers improving the quality of apprenticeships to make them better suited to the needs of employers and learners. The Government’s decision to redeploy £150 million Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, of our savings for 2010-11, creating an additional 50,000 Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the places this financial year, demonstrates our commitment change in the number of students studying at further to high-quality skills. We are investing in our future and education colleges in the west midlands between academic training the next generation, as well as developing the years 2009-10 and 2010-11. [1448] existing work force, which is vital as we emerge from recession. Mr Hayes: The following table shows learners studying at FE colleges in the west midlands Government office Business: Reading Berkshire region in 2007/08 and 2008/09, the most recent years for which full year data are available. Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Learners studying at further education colleges in the west midlands, Business, Innovation and Skills what recent steps his 2007/08 and 2008/09 Department has taken to assist small and medium- Region 2007/08 2008/09 sized businesses in Reading East constituency. [985] West midlands 330,865 380,692 Notes: Mr Prisk: The Government are currently setting their 1. Further education provision includes general further education policy priorities for the next five years, which will aim to colleges including tertiary, sixth form colleges, special college—agricultural make this the most entrepreneurial decade in history. and horticultural colleges and art and design colleges, specialist This means creating the right environment to start and colleges and external institutions. grow a business, including tackling issues such as the 2. Volumes are rounded to the nearest hundred. 3. Figures for 2008/09 are not directly comparable to 2007/08 due to a availability of finance and skills, the burden of regulation change in funding methodology. and issues of business confidence and taxation. Source: The Government are committed to promoting economic Individualised Learner Record. growth across the country and will support the creation of local enterprise partnerships to promote local economic Higher Education: Finance development, to replace the regional development agencies. These may take the form of the existing RDAs where they are popular. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for The Government are also redirecting £150 million of Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what funding in 2010-11 to create an additional 50,000 high proportion of students studying for a higher education quality employer-led apprenticeship places. These new qualification in (a) a further education college and (b) places will be targeted especially at SMEs to make it other institutions in 2008-09 were (i) directly funded by easier for small businesses to take on apprentices and the Higher Education Funding Council for England, access the benefits they can bring to the workplace. (ii) funded via a university and (iii) funded by the Learning and Skills Council. [913] Departmental Official Residences Mr Willetts: The latest available information from Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the Learning and Skills Council and the Higher Education Innovation and Skills whether any domestic properties Statistics Agency is provided in the attached tables. in the gift of the Government have been allocated to the Table 1: Full person equivalent (FPE) students registered at use of Ministers in his Department. [1792] institutions in England and studying for a Higher Education (HE) qualification by type of provision and source of funding: English Mr Davey: No. Further Education Colleges—Academic Year 2007-08 Funding Proportion Type of Provision source Number (%) Further Education: Finance Accredited HE LSC 32,960 20 not fundable by Angela Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for HEFCE, Business, Innovation and Skills whether he plans to delivered by ring-fence funding for further education. [1161] English FEC 193W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 194W

Accredited HE Other 5,335 3 Table 2: Higher Education Enrolment1 by Source of Funding English not fundable by funding Higher Education Institutions: Academic Year 2008-09 HEFCE, source Source of funding Number Proportion (%) delivered by English FEC Directly funded by 1,740,350 86.8 Accredited HE Total 38,300 — HEFCE not fundable by Funded by LSC 90 <0.1 HEFCE, Funded via a 3,105 0.2 delivered by University English FEC Other 262,305 13.1 Prescribed HE HEFCE 47,650 28 Total 2,005,845 100 directly delivered 1 Covers postgraduate and undergraduate students of all domiciles by English FEC enrolled on full-time and part-time courses. Prescribed HE Other 9,090 5 Notes: directly delivered funding Figures are based on a HESA Standard Registration Population. by English FEC source Figures are rounded to the nearest five, so components may not sum to total. Prescribed HE Total 56,735 — Percentages are given to one decimal place. directly delivered HEFCE: Higher Education Funding Council for England LSC: by English FEC Learning and Skills Council Franchised HE HEFCE 51,500 31 Source: delivered by Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record English FEC in partnership with Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, an HEI Innovation and Skills whether he plans to make in year Franchised HE Other 4,360 3 changes to his Department’s budgetary provision for delivered by funding each university in the West Midlands in 2010-11. [1510] English FEC in source partnership with an HEI Mr Willetts: The Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) announced provisional allocations Franchised HE Total 55,855 — to institutions for academic year 2010/11 on 18 March delivered by English FEC in 2010. As in previous years, final allocations taking into partnership with account any further changes, including those resulting an HEI from the Chancellor’s statement on 24 May 2010, will Franchised HE HEFCE 11,700 7 be announced by HEFCE in July this year. deliveredbyan unknown or non- Higher Education: Student Numbers HEI/FEC institution in Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, partnership with Innovation and Skills how many young people were in an HEI higher education in each (a) constituency and (b) local Franchised HE Other 5,260 3 authority area in (i) 1997 and (ii) the latest year for deliveredbyan funding which figures are available; and what estimate he has unknown or non- source HEI/FEC made of the number of young people likely to be in institution in higher education in each such area in the next three partnership with years. [1240] an HEI Franchised HE Total 16,960 — Mr Willetts: The latest available information from deliveredbyan the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA), showing unknown or non- young undergraduate enrolments by constituency and HEI/FEC local authority, will be placed in the Libraries of the institution in partnership with House. Figures for the 2009/10 academic year will be an HEI available from HESA in January 2011. Grand Total 167,850 100 The Department does not make forward estimates of student numbers below national level. Estimates for the Notes: next three years are therefore not available by age group, HEI: Higher Education Institution: FEC:Further Education College HEFCE: Higher Education Funding Council for England local authority or constituency. Numbers include all students taught by English FECs, or by an unknown or non-HEI/FEC institution, and all modes of learning Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, including distance learners, and all levels of HE. Innovation and Skills what estimate he has made of the Students returned to HESA as ’Fundable by HEFCE, but funds not change in the number of students studying at universities sought’ have been attributed to ’Other funding source’. in the west midlands between academic years 2009-10 FPE students taught by English HEIs are not accounted for in these data. and 2010-11. [1452] FPEs have been rounded to the nearest five and percentages have been rounded to the nearest integer. Mr Willetts: The number of students in each institution 2008-09 HESA and LSC data are available but the equivalent will depend upon the recruitment decisions taken by analysis has not yet been performed by HEFCE. individual institutions. However, we are making available Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) student record and funding for an additional 10,000 places in academic Learning and Skills Council (LSC) Individualised Learner Record year 2010/11 which will be allocated by the Higher F04 data. Education Funding Council for England. 195W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 196W

Northwest Regional Development Agency Sheffield Forgemasters: Finance

Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation and Skills by what date he plans to decide Business, Innovation and Skills if he will maintain the whether to abolish the North West Regional Development present level of financial support from his Department Agency. [1644] for Sheffield Forgemasters. [1388]

Mr Prisk: The Government will provide further detail Mr Prisk: In line with the statement given by my right on the future of the regional development agencies and hon. Friend the then Chief Secretary to the Treasury on how we propose to take forward our proposals for local 17 May, and along with other projects which were enterprise partnerships in due course. approved after January 2010, the loan to Forgemasters is undergoing a process of review. An announcement will be made in due course as part of the review. Regional Development Agencies Students: Loans Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which individual (a) Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for programmes and (b) grants in each regional development Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many EU nationals agency he has identified as lower-value expenditure to have claimed a maintenance loan while attending university contribute towards his Department’s proposed expenditure in the UK in the last 10 years; and how many such EU reductions. [1395] nationals are in arrears in respect of their loan repayments; [360] Mr Prisk: No decisions have been made on how (2) how many nationals of other EU countries projects/programmes currently delivered by the regional attending university in England were in receipt of a development agencies (RDAs) will be affected. We are maintenance loan in each of the last five years; and working closely with the RDAs to minimise the impact how many are in arrears with repayment; [654] on priority programmes in line with Government priorities. (3) how many nationals of other European countries Affected programmes and projects will be kept fully attending university in England and in receipt of a informed as specific decisions are made and plans are maintenance loan have defaulted on repayments in developed. each of the last five years. [670]

Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Willetts [holding answer 2 June 2010]: The Innovation and Skills whether he has made an assessment information requested is available for tuition fee loans, of the merits of Advantage West Midlands’ plans to but not available in the format requested for maintenance allocate funding to Castle Hill in Dudley; and if he will loans. ensure that the funding for those plans will not be European Union (EU) nationals are generally eligible affected by the implementation of the reductions needed for tuition fee support only, provided that they have to achieve the £100 million reduction in expenditure set been ordinarily resident in the European economic area out by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on 24 May (EEA) or Switzerland for the three years prior to the 2010. [1445] first day of the first academic year of their course. EU nationals have been eligible to apply for tuition fee Mr Prisk: The Government have set out plans to loans since they were introduced in the 2006/07academic make over £6 billion of savings. The RDAs outside year. London (which is being dealt with separately) will contribute EU nationals who have been ordinarily resident in £270 million from their programme budgets. We are in the UK and Islands for the three years prior to the first discussions with the RDAs about how this will translate day of the first academic year of their course may also across the RDA network. Decisions as to how these qualify for maintenance loans. Additionally: certain reductions impact on individual projects will be for the EEA and Swiss migrant workers and specified family RDAs themselves. We have however indicated that we members; children of Swiss nationals; and children of wish to minimise the impact in the north-east, north-west, Turkish workers in the UK may be eligible for the full Yorkshire and the west midlands. support package provided that they satisfy specific residence conditions. Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, By June 2009 there were 4,800 EU borrowers who Innovation and Skills what recent representations he had studied in England who had become liable to repay has received from local authorities in the west midlands tuition fee loans. Of those, 600 were considered to be in on the work of Advantage West Midlands. [1520] arrears. The majority of this 600 are borrowers who are known to be overseas, have not provided details of their Mr Prisk: The Department has had no formal income, and have therefore been set up with repayment representation from individual local authorities in the schedules and put into notional arrears in order that the west midlands on the work of Advantage West Midlands. Student Loans Company can commence tracing and The West Midlands Joint Strategy and Investment Board possibly legal action where appropriate. This is an essential (JS&IB) has however requested a meeting to discuss step in the overseas collection process. This figure does how they can help rebalance the regional economy and also include those accounts where borrowers have defaulted I hope to meet them in due course. on their loan repayments. 197W Written Answers9 JUNE 2010 Written Answers 198W

On 22 June the Student Loans Company is due to take to increase the skills levels of the workforce in (a) publish updated figures in Income Contingent Repayments Hartlepool constituency and (b) the North East. [88] by Repayment Cohort and Tax Year 2000/01 to 2008/09. Mr Hayes: The Department for Business, Innovation Trade Unions and Skills will seek to drive up the skills levels of the workforce by directing public funding where it will Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, bring the clearest benefits. We will also make sure that Innovation and Skills what plans he has to consult trade employers and individuals have the information they unions in (a) his Department and (b) its agencies on need to make the best choices about investing in training. cost reduction plans. [598] We have begun to rebalance skills provision by redeploying £150 million of Train to Gain funding to create 50,000 Mr Davey: On 26 May 2010 the HR Director for BIS high-quality Apprenticeship places, focused on small and his team met with the departmental trade unions and medium sized enterprises. We are also taking action (PCS, prospect and FDA) regarding the implications of to set colleges and training organisations free from the Chancellor’s announcement on 24 May. A programme excessive bureaucracy and direct state control, to give of weekly meetings is being set up to maintain the them the freedom to respond better to local needs. dialogue and consultation on this. The Skills Funding Agency is responsible for the The agencies of BIS have their own trade union delivery of public funds for skills training, including representatives and consultative arrangements. Meetings Apprenticeships. Hartlepool and the North East will between management and the trade unions in the agencies benefit from the refocusing of funding towards higher- are taking place to discuss the implications of the quality training with clearer benefits. In excess of £6 million Chancellor’s announcement. of public funding will be supporting skills training delivered in Hartlepool in 2010-11 covering a diverse Vocational Training: North East range of programmes to meet the needs of individuals and employers, including apprentices. This is supplemented Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for by a range of other Teesside programmes which are Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he plans to accessible to many of those living in Hartlepool.

1MC Ministerial Corrections9 JUNE 2010 Ministerial Corrections 2MC

constituencies settled by each firm of solicitors is shown Ministerial Correction in the following tables as at 23 May 2010: The Department is unable to provide data for Morley Wednesday 9 June 2010 and Outwood as this is a new constituency and the Department does not have a breakdown of these figures. Headline figures as at 23 May 2010 Number of settled ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Constituency claims—VWF Industrial Diseases: Compensation Bassetlaw 5,197 Leigh 705 John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Doncaster North 3,878 and Climate Change how many claims for (a) vibration South Shields 1,186 white finger and (b) chronic obstructive pulmonary Morley and Rothwell 280 disease have been settled in (i) Bassetlaw, (ii) Leigh, Total 11,246 (iii) Doncaster North, (iv) South Shields and (v) Morley and Outwood constituency; and how many such claims Number of settled in each such constituency were settled by each firm of Constituency claims—COPD solicitors. [52] Bassetlaw 8,951 [Official Report, 2 June 2010, Vol. 510, c. 20W.] Leigh 4,956 Doncaster North 9,632 Charles Hendry: The number of claims for vibration South Shields 3,016 white finger (VWF) and chronic obstructive pulmonary Morley and Rothwell 1,563 disease that have been settled in Bassetlaw, Leigh, Doncaster Total 28,118 North, South Shields and Morley and Rothwell

VWF claims settled Constituency Claimant’s representatives Office Number of settled claims

Morley and Rothwell Beresfords Solicitors Doncaster 14 Morley and Rothwell Branton Bridge Manchester 1 Morley and Rothwell BSG Solicitors London 1 Morley and Rothwell Corries York York 4 Morley and Rothwell Emsleys Solicitors Castleford 1 Morley and Rothwell Farleys Solicitors Burnley 4 Morley and Rothwell Foys Solicitors Worksop 1 Morley and Rothwell Gorman Hamilton Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 1 Morley and Rothwell Gorvin Smith Fort Solicitors Stockport 1 Morley and Rothwell Green Williamson Wakefield 1 Morley and Rothwell Hamers Solicitors Hull 1 Morley and Rothwell Hartley and Worstenholme Solicitors Pontefract 1 Morley and Rothwell Hartley and Worstenholme Solicitors Castleford 1 Morley and Rothwell Hugh James Cardiff 2 Morley and Rothwell Ibbotson Brady Solicitors Leeds 1 Morley and Rothwell Irwin Mitchell Solicitors Sheffield 28 Morley and Rothwell Keeble Hawson Doncaster 1 Morley and Rothwell Keeble Hawson Moorhouse Sheffield 5 Morley and Rothwell Marrons Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 1 Morley and Rothwell Meloy Whittle Robinson Preston 5 Morley and Rothwell Morrish and Co. Solicitors Leeds 4 Morley and Rothwell Mortons Solicitors Sunderland 1 Morley and Rothwell Moxons 1 Morley and Rothwell On Legal Solicitors Halifax 2 Morley and Rothwell Oxley and Coward Solicitors Rotherham 1 Morley and Rothwell Pannone and Partners Solicitors Manchester 2 Morley and Rothwell Raleys Solicitors Barnsley 91 Morley and Rothwell Robinson King Solicitors—ceased trading Stockport 1 Morley and Rothwell Russell Jones and Walker Solicitors Sheffield 1 Morley and Rothwell Saffmans Solicitors Leeds 12 Morley and Rothwell Shaw and Co. Solicitors Doncaster 2 Morley and Rothwell The Smith Partnership Derby 1 Morley and Rothwell Thompsons Solicitors Manchester 2 Morley and Rothwell Thompsons Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 5 Morley and Rothwell Thornleys Huddersfield 1 3MC Ministerial Corrections9 JUNE 2010 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

VWF claims settled Constituency Claimant’s representatives Office Number of settled claims

Morley and Rothwell TLW Solicitors North Shields 6 Morley and Rothwell Towells Solicitors Wakefield 67 Morley and Rothwell Wake Smith and Tofields Solicitors Sheffield 1 Morley and Rothwell Watson Burton LLP Newcastle upon Tyne 4 Total 280

COPD claims settled Constituency Claimant’s representatives Office Number of settled claims

Morley and Rothwell 1 Legal Solicitors Swansea 6 Morley and Rothwell Armitage and Guest Wakefield 1 Morley and Rothwell Ashton Morton Slack LLP Sheffield 2 Morley and Rothwell Atteys Retford 1 Morley and Rothwell Atteys Rotherham 6 Morley and Rothwell Avalon Solicitors (ceased trading) Warrington 74 Morley and Rothwell Barber and Co. Liverpool 73 Morley and Rothwell Beaumont Legal Wakefield 2 Morley and Rothwell Beresfords Solicitors Doncaster 452 Morley and Rothwell BHP LAW Belmont 1 Morley and Rothwell Birchall Blackburn Preston 18 Morley and Rothwell Branton Bridge Manchester 1 Morley and Rothwell BRM Solicitors Chesterfield 12 Morley and Rothwell Browell Smith and Co. Newcastle upon Tyne 2 Morley and Rothwell Canter Levin and Berg Solicitors St Helens 1 Morley and Rothwell Catteralls Wakefield 1 Morley and Rothwell Collings Solicitors Altrincham 2 Morley and Rothwell Corries York York 23 Morley and Rothwell Delta Legal Manchester 39 Morley and Rothwell DMH Stallard Brighton 4 Morley and Rothwell Donald Race and Newton Solicitors Burnley 1 Morley and Rothwell Elliot Mather Solicitors Chesterfield 1 Morley and Rothwell Emsleys Solicitors Castleford 7 Morley and Rothwell Farleys Solicitors Burnley 3 Morley and Rothwell Foys Solicitors Worksop 1 Morley and Rothwell Gorman Hamilton Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 9 Morley and Rothwell Gorvin Smith Fort Solicitors Stockport 4 Morley and Rothwell Green Williamson Wakefield 1 Morley and Rothwell Hartley and Worstenholme Solicitors Castleford 2 Morley and Rothwell Hilary Meredith Solicitors Wilmslow 19 Morley and Rothwell Holmes and Hills Solicitors Great Dunmow 1 Morley and Rothwell Housemans Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 1 Morley and Rothwell Hugh James Respiratory Disease Department 46 Morley and Rothwell Ibbotson Brady Solicitors Leeds 5 Morley and Rothwell Ingrams Solicitors Hull 27 Morley and Rothwell Irwin Mitchell Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 1 Morley and Rothwell Irwin Mitchell Solicitors Sheffield 39 Morley and Rothwell J M Skinner Solicitors Birkenhead 3 Morley and Rothwell Keeble Hawson Doncaster 1 Morley and Rothwell Keeble Hawson Moorhouse Sheffield 11 Morley and Rothwell Kidd and Spoor Harper Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 2 Morley and Rothwell Kingslegal Cardiff 1 Morley and Rothwell Levi and Co. Leeds 1 Morley and Rothwell Lloyd Green Solicitors Chelmsford 1 Morley and Rothwell Manners Pimblett Solicitors Cheshire 1 Morley and Rothwell Mark Gilbert Morse Newcastle upon Tyne 48 Morley and Rothwell Matrons Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 3 Morley and Rothwell Maurice Smith and Co. Solicitors Castleford 1 Morley and Rothwell Meloy Whittle Robinson Preston 9 Morley and Rothwell Morrish and Co. Solicitors Leeds 3 Morley and Rothwell Mortons Solicitors Sunderland 2 Morley and Rothwell Nelson and Co. Solicitors Leeds 3 Morley and Rothwell On Legal Solicitors Halifax 2 5MC Ministerial Corrections9 JUNE 2010 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

COPD claims settled Constituency Claimant’s representatives Office Number of settled claims

Morley and Rothwell Onyems and Partners Essex 11 Morley and Rothwell Oxley and Coward Solicitors Rotherham 1 Morley and Rothwell Pannone and Partners Solicitors Manchester 4 Morley and Rothwell Proddow and Mackay Solicitors Sheffield 24 Morley and Rothwell Raleys Solicitors Barnsley 307 Morley and Rothwell Randell Lloyd Jenkins and Martin Llanelli 2 Morley and Rothwell Recompense Ltd. Totnes 10 Morley and Rothwell Robinson King Solicitors (ceased trading) Stockport 1 Morley and Rothwell Ryan Carlisle Thomas Lawyers Victoria 2 Morley and Rothwell Saffmans Solicitors Leeds 20 Morley and Rothwell Shaw and Co. Solicitors Doncaster 5 Morley and Rothwell Silverbeck Rymer Solicitors Brunswick Street, Liverpool 1 Morley and Rothwell Simpson Millar Solicitors Leeds 3 Morley and Rothwell Thompsons Solicitors Manchester 3 Morley and Rothwell Thompsons Solicitors Newcastle upon Tyne 18 Morley and Rothwell Thornleys Huddersfield 1 Morley and Rothwell TLW Solicitors North Shields 38 Morley and Rothwell Towells Solicitors Wakefield 94 Morley and Rothwell Twigg Farnell Solicitors (ceased trading) Rotherham 1 Morley and Rothwell Union of Democratic Mineworkers Mansfield 16 Morley and Rothwell Watson Burton LLP Newcastle upon Tyne 19 Morley and Rothwell Wheelers Solicitors Ash Vale 1 Total 1,563

Letter of correction from Charles Hendry: The Department is unable to provide data for Morley When colleagues were checking Hansard they noticed and Outwood as this is a new constituency and the that the written answer provided to the hon. Member Department does not have a breakdown of these figures. for Bassetlaw (John Mann) on 2 June 2010, Official Report, column 20W, did not include all of the data Headline figures as at 23 May 2010 requested on the number of claims for vibration white Number of settled Constituency claims—VWF finger (VWF) and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. The Department had included information on the number Bassetlaw 5,197 of settlements made in the Morley and Rothwell Leigh 705 constituency, but this same information should have Doncaster North 3,878 also been provided for the constituencies of Bassetlaw, South Shields 1,186 Leigh, Doncaster North, South Shields and constituencies Morley and Rothwell 280 settled by each firm of solicitors as shown in tables as at Total 11,246 23 May 2010: This was an error on the parliamentary unit’s part for which I apologise. Due to the size of all the tables when collated together I am arranging for this information to be deposited in the Libraries of the House. Number of settled The correct answer should have been: Constituency claims—COPD Charles Hendry: I am depositing in the Libraries of Bassetlaw 8,951 the House tables detailing the settlements made by each Leigh 4,956 firm of solicitors as at 23 May 2010 for claims for Doncaster North 9,632 vibration white finger (VWF) and chronic obstructive South Shields 3,016 pulmonary disease that have been settled in Bassetlaw, Morley and Rothwell 1,563 Leigh, Doncaster North, South Shields and Morley Total 28,118 and Rothwell constituencies.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE...... 313 CABINET OFFICE—continued Cabinet Committees ...... 320 Non-personal Data...... 318 Cabinet Government ...... 315 Pay Rates (Civil Service) ...... 318 Charities (Regulation)...... 319 Voluntary Organisations...... 316 Early Intervention Programmes...... 321 Efficiency and Reform Group...... 320 Emergency Planning College ...... 317 PRIME MINISTER...... 322 Non-departmental Public Bodies ...... 313 Engagements ...... 322 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Wednesday 9 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT...... 9WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 10WS Previously Developed Land (Density)...... 9WS English Language Requirement...... 11WS G6 Meeting...... 10WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE...... 9WS United Kingdom Envoy for Post-Holocaust Issues..... 9WS HEALTH...... 12WS Time for Training (Medical Education England TRANSPORT ...... 12WS Report)...... 12WS Equality Act 2010 (Seafarers) ...... 12WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 9 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 3P FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE...... 4P Croydon FC ...... 3P EU Referendum...... 4P Crystal Palace FC...... 3P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 9 June 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 190W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT...... 172W Aimhigher Programme ...... 190W Departmental Manpower ...... 172W Alcoholic Drinks: Prices ...... 190W Departmental Mobile Phones...... 173W Apprentices: Bexley ...... 191W Derelict Land and Green Belt...... 173W Business: Reading Berkshire ...... 191W Local Government Finance ...... 173W Departmental Official Residences...... 191W Local Government Finance: North East...... 174W Further Education: Finance ...... 191W Local Government: Public Consultation...... 174W Further Education: Student Numbers ...... 192W Mayors ...... 174W Higher Education: Finance...... 192W Ordnance Survey ...... 174W Higher Education: Student Numbers...... 194W Planning Obligations ...... 175W Northwest Regional Development Agency ...... 195W Second Homes and Holiday Accommodation ...... 175W Regional Development Agencies ...... 195W Standards Board for England ...... 175W Sheffield Forgemasters: Finance ...... 196W Students: Loans...... 196W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 167W Trade Unions...... 197W Departmental Manpower ...... 167W Vocational Training: North East...... 197W Departmental Official Residences...... 167W Departmental Public Appointments ...... 167W Gambling: Greater London ...... 168W CABINET OFFICE...... 185W Admiralty Arch ...... 185W DEFENCE...... 176W Departmental Catering...... 185W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations...... 176W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 185W Armed Forces: Recruitment...... 176W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers ...... 186W Chiefs of Staff ...... 177W Departmental Responsibilities...... 186W Commonwealth War Graves Commission ...... 177W Government Departments: Recruitment...... 186W Defence...... 178W Ministerial Policy Advisers ...... 186W Defence Support Group ...... 178W Non-departmental Public Bodies...... 185W Departmental Billing ...... 178W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 167W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 179W Ministerial Policy Advisers ...... 167W Departmental Manpower ...... 179W Departmental Official Cars...... 180W Departmental Public Expenditure ...... 180W France...... 180W PRIME MINISTER...... 175W Low Flying ...... 181W Sovereignty ...... 175W Met Office ...... 181W Met Office and United Kingdom Hydrographic Office...... 182W Military Aircraft: Procurement...... 183W SCOTLAND ...... 175W United Kingdom Hydrographic Office ...... 183W Departmental Manpower ...... 175W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 184W Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority ...... 184W Young People...... 184W TRANSPORT ...... 145W Boats: Licensing ...... 145W EDUCATION ...... 168W Bus Services: Regulation...... 146W Children’s Commissioner for England...... 168W Departmental Billing ...... 146W Pupil Premium...... 168W Departmental Contracts ...... 146W Pupils: Per Capita Costs ...... 168W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers ...... 147W Seaham School of Technology...... 172W Railways: Construction...... 147W Trade Unions...... 172W Woodhead Tunnel...... 147W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 176W National Grid ...... 176W TREASURY ...... 187W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS ..... 148W Banks...... 187W Departmental Manpower ...... 148W Bradford & Bingley...... 187W Departmental Mobile Phones...... 148W Business: Closures ...... 187W Departmental Official Cars...... 149W Child Trust Fund...... 188W Noise: Pollution Control...... 149W Equitable Life Assurance Society: Compensation...... 188W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 150W Excise Duties: Fuels...... 189W Office for Budget Responsibility ...... 189W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE...... 163W Tax Allowances: Married People ...... 189W Chen Guangcheng ...... 163W Taxation: Financial Services ...... 189W Defence...... 163W VAT ...... 190W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 163W Departmental Mobile Phones...... 164W Departmental Public Appointments ...... 164W Embassies: Buildings ...... 164W WALES ...... 145W Linda Carty ...... 165W Departmental Manpower ...... 145W Middle East: Armed Conflict ...... 165W Departmental Official Cars...... 145W Mordechai Vanunu ...... 166W Nuclear Weapons...... 166W Somalia: Piracy...... 166W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 160W HEALTH...... 148W Departmental Billing ...... 160W NHS: Training ...... 148W Departmental Official Hospitality ...... 160W Departmental Public Expenditure ...... 160W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 153W Employers’ Liability ...... 161W Borders: Personal Records...... 153W Future Jobs Fund ...... 161W Departmental Billing ...... 154W Housing Benefit...... 161W Departmental Public Expenditure ...... 154W Social Security Benefits: Disabled...... 162W Departmental Redundancy Pay ...... 155W Social Security Benefits: Fraud...... 162W Deportation: Offenders...... 155W Trade Unions...... 163W Detention Centres: Children...... 156W Entry Clearances: Pakistan...... 156W Identity Cards...... 156W Passports: Fingerprints...... 157W Police: Finance ...... 158W Seasonal Agricultural Workers’ Scheme ...... 158W Sexual Offences: Registration ...... 159W Trade Unions...... 160W

JUSTICE...... 150W Defamation...... 150W Departmental Billing ...... 150W Electoral Register ...... 151W Prison Service: Manpower ...... 152W Rape: Disclosure of Information ...... 152W Rape: Lancashire ...... 152W Third Parties (Rights against Insurers) Act 2010 ...... 153W Youth Justice: Per Capita Costs ...... 153W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 9 June 2010

Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 1MC Industrial Diseases: Compensation ...... 1MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 16 June 2010

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 9 June 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 313] [see index inside back page] Minister for the Cabinet Office Prime Minister

Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust [Col. 333] Statement—(Mr Lansley)

Identity Documents Bill [Col. 345] Motion for Second Reading—(Mrs May)—agreed to Programme motion—(Bill Wiggin)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 434]

Wirral University Teaching Hospital NHS Foundation Trust (Fraud) [Col. 436] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall High Speed Rail [Col. 1WH] Transport (South Devon) [Col. 23WH] Child Poverty [Col. 31WH] Royal Liverpool University Hospital [Col. 38WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 9WS]

Petitions [Col. 3P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 145W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 1MC]