Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 2 3 AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION OF 4 5 2019 NFPA TECHNICAL MEETING 6 7 8 THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2019 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 ATKINSON-BAKER, INC. 20 (800) 288-3376 www.depo.com 21 22 TRANSCRIBED BY: MARY HARLOW FILE NO. AD067FA 23 24 25

1 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 3 DAWN MICHELLE BELLIS 4 SECRETARY OF THE STANDARDS COUNCIL 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS 6 7 KERRY BELL PRESIDING OFFICER 8 9 LINDA FULLER STAFF COORDINATOR 10 RECORDING SECRETARY FOR THE STANDARDS COUNCIL 11 SUZANNE GALLAGHER 12 NFPA COUNSEL 13 MARK ODE 14 AWARD RECIPIENT 15 CATHERINE STASHAK 16 AWARD RECIPIENT 17 FREDERIC HARTWELL 18 AWARD RECIPIENT 19 HOWARD HOPPER 20 AWARD RECIPIENT 21 ROLAND HUGGINS 22 AWARD RECIPIENT 23 ALAN MANCHE 24 AWARD RECIPIENT 25

2 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 SUSAN MCLAUGHLIN AWARD RECIPIENT 2 3 JAMES MUNDY AWARD RECIPIENT 4 5 VINCENT SAPORITA AWARD RECIPIENT 6 7 FRED WALKER AWARD RECIPIENT 8 9 DAN O'CONNOR PRESIDING OFFICER 10 11 WILLIAM KOFFEL 12 MARK HOPKINS 13 14 GEORGE STANLEY 15 KEITH HATTLER (PHONETIC) 16 17 BOB CAPUTO 18 JAMES PETERKIN 19 20 TERRY VICTOR 21 DAVE DEGENAIS (PHONETIC) 22 23 TIM CROUSHORE 24 JONATHAN FLANNERY 25

3 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 TOP MYERS 2 JOHN MCDEVITT 3 4 MARCELO HIRSCHLER 5 WILLIAM FISKE 6 7 MARK RUNYON 8 JOHN CHOLAN (PHONETIC) 9 10 KENNETH BUSH PRESIDING OFFICER 11 12 JARROD ALSTON 13 ANTONINO MARINO 14 15 JAMES CONRAD 16 DAVE SHAPIRO 17 18 ANDREW ELLISON 19 TIM TOMLINSON 20 21 DAVE BURNS (PHONETIC) 22 ANDY OLIVER 23 24 JAY TORLEY (PHONETIC) 25

4 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JIM REEDY (PHONETIC) 2 KAREN LETONEN (PHONETIC) 3 4 RICHARD HOFFMANN 5 TED LEMOFF 6 7 BRUCE SWIECICKI 8 JOHN PUSKAR 9 10 JAMES QUITER PRESIDING OFFICER 11 12 WILLIAM TILL 13 DAN FINNEGAN 14 15 HOWARD HOPPER 16 JAMES BIGGINS 17 18 JAMES HOUSTON 19 MIKE GURNEE (PHONETIC) 20 21 PAUL HAYES 22 MATT PACE (PHONETIC) 23 24 TIM MYERS 25

5 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MICHAEL BUCKLEY 2 ROBERT DAVIDSON 3 4 DOUG BERKER (PHONETIC) 5 ANTHONY NATALE 6 7 ROBERT HARRIS 8 CHRIS CIONI 9 10 THOMAS BRIDER (PHONETIC) 11 CHRIS SEARLES 12 13 WILLIAM CANTOR 14 JUSTIN PERRY 15 16 JOHN ALLAGER (PHONETIC) 17 JACK LYONS 18 NICK WARNER 19 20 NED WEST 21 BEN DITCHA (PHONETIC) 22 23 EDDIE GEDRY (PHONETIC) 24 CURTIS ASHTON 25

6 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 RYAN MCMORROW 2 JOEL HAYES 3 4 MICHAEL JOHNSTON 5 DANIEL MIKAT 6 7 KENNETH BOYCE 8 JIM TARCHINSKI 9 10 JOHN KOVACHIC (PHONETIC) 11 SCOTT CLINE 12 13 HOWARD HERNDON 14 JULIAN BURNS 15 16 JIM DOLLARD 17 CHRIS HUNTER 18 19 BARRY RODGERS 20 MIKE STONE 21 22 ROBERT OSBORNE 23 LARRY AYER (PHONETIC) 24 25 DAVID HUMPHREY

7 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 THOMAS BISHOP 2 RICHARD HOLUB 3 4 BRIAN HOLLAND 5 THOMAS DOMITROVICH 6 7 SKIP GREGORY 8 KEITH LAUGHLIN (PHONETIC) 9 10 BILL NOLTEE (PHONETIC) 11 DAN BUUCK 12 13 MARK HILBERT 14 MARK GOODSON 15 16 JOHN MCHAMMISH (PHONETIC) 17 PALMER HICKMAN (PHONETIC) 18 19 KEITH WATERS 20 RANDY DOLLAR 21 22 BILL TIMMONS (PHONETIC) 23 LORI KELLY (PHONETIC) 24 25 BRETT LARSON

8 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MIKE BENNETT 2 ANDY BARBER 3 4 JEFF TERRY (PHONETIC) 5 DALE BRADINSKI (PHONETIC) 6 7 RYAN MCCLARNEN (PHONETIC) 8 MARK ODIE (PHONETIC) 9 10 RANDY HUNTER 11 JOHN MCKENZIE 12 13 PAUL HARRAH (PHONETIC) 14 STEVE LUBSTER (PHONETIC) 15 16 ALAN MANCHE 17 BOB TORBIN 18 19 NATHAN PHILLIPS 20 CHRISTINE PORTER 21 22 MITCHELL GETHRIE (PHONETIC) 23 PAUL CABOT 24 25 RICHARD JONES

9 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 CRAIG ROAKS (PHONETIC) 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX 3 PRESIDING OFFICER 4 PETER GRASER 5 6 KEITH LOFLAND 7 RODRIGO BURN (PHONETIC) 8 9 CHARLES MELLOW (PHONETIC) 10 PHIL SIMMONS (PHONETIC) 11 12 DALE CRAWFORD 13 GEORGE STRANIERO 14 15 JOE ANDRE 16 TOM WARREM (PHONETIC) 17 18 BOBBY GRAY 19 DAVID HUMPHREY 20 21 PAUL ABERNATHY 22 RICHARD GARBUCK (PHONETIC) 23 24 MIKE SMITH 25

10 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DOUG MULVANEY 2 SCOTT SCHMIDT 3 4 JOEL GORGON (PHONETIC) 5 LINDA LITTLE 6 7 JIM ROGERS 8 JASON FISHER 9 10 LEO ZIEMAN (PHONETIC) 11 DYAN ALECUMEN (PHONETIC) 12 13 TOM MOORE 14 JIM WIESE 15 16 ERNIE GALLO (PHONETIC) 17 KURT SEELIGER 18 19 GEORGE ZIMMERMAN 20 STANLEY COPPIN (PHONETIC) 21 22 BILL MCCOY 23 24 25

11 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION OF 2 2019 NFPA TECHNICAL MEETING 3 THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2019 4 PART 1 5 6 (MUSIC) 7 DAWN BELLIS: Good morning, ladies and 8 gentlemen, and welcome to the 2019 NFPA Technical 9 Meeting in San Antonio, Texas. Please take a moment 10 to familiarize yourself with the room, noting exits in 11 the unlikely event of the need to evacuate. Allow me 12 to remind you, being a safety organization, NFPA is 13 always concerned for your safety. Please look around 14 for the marked emergency exits. Keep in mind that the 15 nearest emergency exit may be behind you. In the 16 event of an emergency in the Convention Center, dial 17 9-1-1 from any phone, and notify the operator that you 18 are a guest or employee at the Henry B. Gonzalez 19 Convention Center, at 900 East Market Street. If 20 there's an emergency requiring evacuation, please 21 follow the direction provided by the voice 22 announcement from the fire alarm after the horns and 23 strobe lights go off. Evacuate following the exit 24 sign, NFPA staff, and the Convention Center Emergency 25 Management Team staff. In the event of a fire

12 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 incident, the fire alarm signal is a loud beeping 2 sound along with flashing strobe lights, followed by a 3 voice announcement. If you hear the alarm, please 4 quietly leave the room using the exit nearest you. 5 Again, be mindful, and remember that the nearest exit 6 may be behind you. 7 If you are a person with disabilities who has 8 not already made arrangements with NFPA staff for 9 emergency evacuation, please do so at the registration 10 desk at this time. More details regarding evacuation 11 may be found under the General Info tab on the mobile 12 app. 13 During the Technical Meeting, the use of 14 recording devices of any type is prohibited. The 15 regulations governing the development of NFPA 16 Standards, or the Regs, primarily govern the NFPA 17 Standards Development Process, including processing of 18 Certified Amending Motions at Technical Meetings. The 19 complete Regs are available on NFPA's website, within 20 the NFPA 2019 Standards Directory. 21 As a participant in the process, and attendee, 22 you should familiarize yourself with the Guide for the 23 Conduct of Participants in the NFPA Standards 24 Development Process prior to the start of 25 consideration of today's Certified Amending Motions.

13 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Additionally of importance to be familiar with are the 2 NFPA Convention Rules. The Convention Rules establish 3 the process for today's session. Both documents are 4 included in the 2019 NFPA Standards Directory, 5 available on NFPA's website. 6 The Certified Amending Motion of today's 7 session will be taken in the published order of the 8 NFPA Technical Meeting Agenda. For viewing, please 9 see the NFPA website for the NFPA CNE (phonetic) 10 mobile app. The Agenda combines all Certified 11 Amending Motions from the fall of 2018, and annual 12 2019 Motions Committee Report, and identifies which 13 motions will be considered during the Technical 14 Meeting. Only Certified Amending Motions and 15 subsequent allowable follow-up motions, as determined 16 by the Presiding Officer, will be entertained at this 17 meeting. An authorized person must sign in, as per 18 Convention Rules, to indicate presence and intention 19 to pursue each Certified Amending Motion. By 20 obtaining your credentials at registration, you have 21 electronically signed in for these purposes. 22 Statements for the record, statements for which no 23 certified Amending Motions or allowable follow-up 24 motion is available, shall not be permitted. All 25 Certified Amending Motions were reviewed by the

14 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Motions Committee for determination of certification, 2 following submission of Notices of Intent to Make a 3 Motion. 4 Quorum - for the NFPA Technical Meeting, a 5 Quorum is to be established prior to conducting 6 business in consideration of Certified Amending 7 Motions. Should the quorum be lost during 8 proceedings, the session will terminate without 9 further action by the Membership. Any Certified 10 Amending Motions not acted upon prior to the loss of 11 quorum shall be forwarded directly to the Standards 12 Council without recommendation of this meeting, for 13 action related to issuance, in accordance with Section 14 4.7 of the regulations. Any motions to amend or 15 return that passed prior to the loss of quorum shall 16 be processed and forwarded to the Standards Council in 17 accordance with the regs, Sections 4.5.3, 4.6, and 18 4.7. 19 Appeals - any appeals based upon NFPA Technical 20 Meeting actions must be filed with the Standards 21 Council within 20 days following adjournment. Per 22 Section 1.6.2 of the regs, an appeal for any amendment 23 passed at this meeting which fails Committee ballot 24 shall be filed no later than five days after 25 publication of the amendment ballot results.

15 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Typically, results of amendment ballots are published 2 within 20 days of the Technical Meeting's adjournment. 3 Voting - the votes cast at the Technical 4 Meeting, in conjunction with the debate prior to 5 voting, are an integral and important contribution to 6 NFPA's consensus process. Through motions, debate, 7 and voting, you, our NFPA Membership, make 8 recommendations to the Standards Council. The 9 majority vote results today are for the sole purpose 10 of providing recommendations to the Standards Council 11 prior to the issuance of Standards. The Standards 12 Council's decision on issuance is based upon the 13 entire record, including the discussion and resulting 14 votes at the Technical Meeting. Voting at NFPA 15 Technical Meetings is a privilege granted to voting 16 members of the Association who are physically present. 17 Voting members are identified as such on a 18 registration badge, may utilize a voting device, and 19 should be seated in the areas of the room designated 20 for voting members. Presiding Officers, regardless of 21 membership status, do not vote on matters before the 22 Membership. Voting will be recorded and entered 23 through the electronic devices issued at today's 24 registration. In the event of a tie vote, the issue 25 fails.

16 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Presentation and Debate of Certified Amending 2 Motions - once the session begins today, a Presiding 3 Officer will recognize each authorized maker of a 4 motion, or designee, in the published Agenda Order. 5 At that time, to proceed, the maker must approach a 6 microphone to present the motion. Following 7 presentation, the Chair of the responsible Technical 8 Committee shall report. 9 The floor is then opened for discussion. 10 Anyone in attendance has the privilege of 11 participating, speaking either in support of, or 12 opposition to, the motion. Please preface all remarks 13 with your name, company or organizational affiliation, 14 and whether you are speaking in favor of, or against, 15 the presented motion. Again, identify yourself by 16 name, company or organizational affiliation, and your 17 position each time you address the Membership. Should 18 you forget to do so, the Presiding Officer will remind 19 you of this, as the information assists the 20 stenographer of the session. Green signs indicate 21 microphones for supporters of the motion. Red signs 22 indicate microphones for opponents of the motion. 23 Per the regulations governing NFPA Sections, a 24 Section may present a position on a motion at the 25 Technical Meeting. The position of a Section does not

17 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 necessarily reflect the views of all Section members, 2 but minimally must have been established by a majority 3 of members, with 25 or more votes cast. The position 4 of a Section is awarded no special status in the NFPA 5 Standards Development Process, and may be weighed and 6 assessed as you, the Membership, deem appropriate. 7 To officially conduct this meeting, the 8 Presiding Officer will allow each speaker three 9 minutes to speak. However, the Presiding Officer may 10 limit speaking time afforded in the event that this 11 becomes necessary. With one minute remaining, a bell 12 will sound, and a timer will appear on the center 13 screen. Once your time has ended, please conclude 14 your remarks. 15 Following close of debate, the Membership will 16 be asked to vote on the motion. Once the vote is 17 final, the Presiding Officer will announce the results 18 of the Membership's vote. If the motion was 19 successful, the Presiding Officer shall entertain 20 follow-up motions, if any. The maker of a follow-up 21 motion shall explain why the motion is in order, 22 before the Presiding Officer makes determination as to 23 whether the motion is proper as a follow-up motion. 24 If determined proper, debate on the floor follows the 25 same order as Certified Amending Motions.

18 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 As presentations and debate of each motion 2 continues, five screens will display the text of the 3 motion. Screen One will show the recommended text if 4 the motion passes, or, should the motion's text be 5 lengthy, refer the audience to the electronic Agenda. 6 Screen Two will show the recommended text of the 7 Technical Committee, and if the motion fails. The 8 center screen will show the actual motion, and action 9 on the floor that the iMac camera captures during 10 debate. Following close of a motion's debate and 11 Membership vote, the center screen will display the 12 total number of votes, in support, and in opposition 13 of the motion. 14 Together, we will make the 2019 NFPA Technical 15 Meeting a success. We thank you in advance for your 16 participation, and welcome any comments you may share, 17 and suggested improvements for future events. 18 At this time, I invite you to please take your 19 seats. The 2019 NFPA Technical Meeting will begin 20 shortly. Your efforts to assist us in starting timely 21 are graciously appreciated. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) into 23 some sort of (unintelligible). We're all set. Thank 24 you. 25 KERRY BELL: Good morning, ladies and

19 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 gentlemen, and welcome to the 2019 NFPA Technical 2 Meeting. My name's Kerry Bell, and it's my distinct 3 pleasure to serve as Chair of your Standards Council, 4 and to take part in this year's meeting. Now, before 5 we go any further, I want to introduce a few 6 individuals here with me on stage. To my immediate 7 left is Linda Fuller, who's the Recording Secretary of 8 the Standards Council. 9 (applause) 10 KERRY BELL: Sitting in the middle of the stage 11 is Dawn Michelle Bellis, Secretary of the Standards 12 Council. 13 (applause) 14 KERRY BELL: Sitting to the left of Dawn is 15 Suzanne Gallagher, NFPA Counsel. 16 (applause) 17 KERRY BELL: As you know, the NFPA Standards 18 Development Process is a consensus process that 19 encourages anyone to participate who is interested in 20 improving safety and reducing loss from fire. We just 21 have countless volunteers who freely share their time 22 and expertise to develop NFPA Standards to address 23 safety concerns, as well as new technologies. It's my 24 pleasure here this morning to recognize some 25 outstanding participants in the NFPA Standards

20 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Development Process who have made substantial 2 contributions toward advancing NFPA's mission. Please 3 join me in thanking each of these award recipients for 4 their stellar contributions toward advancing, and of 5 developing the NFPA Standards. 6 Now, the first awards that we have to give out 7 here this morning are the Special Achievement Awards. 8 The Special Achievement Award is presented to an 9 individual for their significant contribution to a 10 single project that has advanced the development of 11 NFPA Standards. We have two of these awards to give 12 out here this morning. And the first award goes to 13 Mark Ode, from Peoria, Arizona. Mark, please join me 14 on stage. 15 (applause) 16 DAWN BELLIS: Mark is being recognized today 17 for his active role with the National Electrical Code 18 project. Mark has been a consistent and strong 19 advocate in promoting the NEC. He has presented for 20 NFPA and UL across the United States, and around the 21 world. As a member of the NEC Quarter Century Club, 22 Mark is one of a group recognized for participation as 23 a panel member for 45 years or more. As a well- 24 established panel member of NFPA 70, the National 25 Electrical Code, Mark has served on numerous code-

21 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 making panels, including 1, 3, 4, 7, 13 and most 2 notably, the NEC Correlating Committee. 3 Having been involved in the revisions of the 4 NEC since the 1999 cycle as a volunteer, Mark has gone 5 above and beyond to ensure that the NEC is the 6 standard for electrical installations. To have a 7 positive and notable impact in the NEC revision 8 process, panel members must devote a significant 9 amount of time reviewing public inputs, public 10 comments, participating in panel meetings, task 11 groups, and much more. Mark is truly one of the 12 hardest working volunteers involved with the NEC 13 revision process. The level of preparation and 14 attention to detail that Mark brings to every meeting 15 is unsurpassed. His preparation helped each panel to 16 efficiently work through respective Agendas, resulting 17 in numerous panels finishing ahead of schedule. 18 Although all NFPA volunteers spend hours 19 preparing and participating in the NEC revision 20 process, the NEC Correlating Committee is additionally 21 called upon to review the work of all code-making 22 panels for compliance with the NEC style manual, and 23 to ensure the correlating of all revisions. This is 24 an incredibly time consuming and arduous task. Yet, 25 Mark came to every Correlating Committee meeting with

22 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 a completed, comprehensive review of each code-making 2 panel's work. This was only achievable through Mark's 3 tireless efforts and steadfast dedication to produce 4 the best possible edition of the NEC. Simply, Mark's 5 participation in the NEC spanning decades is 6 exemplary; his unwavering dedication is truly 7 deserving of this NFPA Special Achievement Award. 8 KERRY BELL: Please join me in congratulating 9 Mark on his Special Achievement Award. 10 (applause) 11 KERRY BELL: Our second Special Achievement 12 Award here this morning goes to Catherine Stashak of 13 the Office of the Illinois Fire Marshal. Catherine, 14 please join me on stage. 15 DAWN BELLIS: Catherine is being recognized 16 today for her active role with the Fire Code project. 17 Cathy joined the NFPA 1 Fire Code Technical Committee 18 in 2016, and has remained an active member of the 19 Committee since that appointment. NFPA 1 is a unique 20 document that relies heavily on the work of task 21 groups to address the extensive variety of topics 22 covered. For recent cycles, Cathy volunteered to 23 serve as the Chair of one of the two main task groups 24 responsible for reviewing proposed changes to the 25 code, as well as other miscellaneous tasks. Serving

23 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 in this role required Cathy to actively and 2 attentively be involved in the entire meeting, 3 chairing the task group and reporting the task group's 4 many recommendations to the full Committee. This took 5 place all while volunteering her expertise on 6 hazardous materials, and other processes. 7 In addition to the two primary task groups, 8 there are always a number of task groups that work to 9 address emerging technical topics, or to review 10 updates to hundreds of extracted code sections. Cathy 11 never hesitates to volunteer for one, or all, and is 12 often called upon to serve as Chair. 13 Cathy's portfolio of experience on NFPA 14 Technical Committees, especially through her 15 dedication to the development of NFPA 1 shows her 16 unmatched knowledge of the NFPA Standards Development 17 Process; and in turn, she brings an invaluable opinion 18 to the table by representing code enforcers in her job 19 at the Illinois Office of the State Fire Marshal. 20 When a Technical Committee is debating an issue, Cathy 21 always provides a vital perspective for how code 22 changes and proposed revisions could impact the AHJ 23 community. 24 In addition to serving on the Fire Code 25 Technical Committee, Cathy also serves on the

24 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Technical Committee on Educational and Daycare 2 Occupancy, where she formerly served as Chair; the 3 Technical Committee on Fire Protection Features; and 4 the Technical Committee on Hazardous Waste, where she 5 currently serves as Chair. 6 KERRY BELL: Please join me in congratulating 7 Catherine for her Special Achievement Award. 8 (applause) 9 KERRY BELL: Well, that concludes the Special 10 Achievement Awards. We're going to move on to the 11 Committee Service Awards. 12 The Committee Service Award is given to a 13 committee member for their continuous and exemplary 14 service on one or more committees over a substantial 15 period of time, and in recognition and appreciation of 16 distinguished service in the development of NFPA Codes 17 and Standards. I'm pleased to present this award to 18 the following very worthy individuals. 19 The first award goes to Frederic Hartwell. 20 Frederic, please join me onstage. 21 DAWN BELLIS: Frederic Hartwell, of Hartwell 22 Electrical Services, Incorporated in Amherst, 23 Massachusetts, serves on the National Electrical Code 24 Panel 9, from 1990 to the present. 25 (applause)

25 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 KERRY BELL: Thank you, Frederic, for your many 2 years of service to NFPA and the Standards Development 3 Process. 4 Now let's welcome our next Committee Service 5 Award winner, Howard Hopper. Howard, please join me 6 on the stage. 7 (applause) 8 DAWN BELLIS: Howard Hopper of UL LLC in 9 Fremont, California, serves on the Correlating 10 Committees on Building Code, from 2000 to present; 11 Safety to Life, from 1999 to present; and these 12 associated Technical Committees on Educational and 13 Daycare Occupancies, from 2015 to the present; Fire 14 Protection Features, from 2010 to the present; and 15 Fundamentals, from 1996 through 2004. Howard 16 additionally serves on the Technical Committees for 17 Energy Storage Systems, from 2016 to today; and the 18 Fire Code, from two - excuse me - 1996 through 2007. 19 KERRY BELL: Thank you, Howard, for your many 20 years of service to NFPA, and the Standards 21 Development Process. 22 Now, the next Committee Service Award goes to 23 Roland Huggins. Roland, please join me on stage here. 24 (applause) 25 DAWN BELLIS: Roland Huggins of American Fire

26 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Sprinkler Association in Dallas, Texas, serve on: The 2 Correlating Committees on Building Code, from 2000 to 3 present; Safety to Life, 2000 to present; the 4 Automatic Sprinkler Systems, 1997 to present. He also 5 serves on the Building Code and Safety to Life 6 Technical Committees on: Assemblies - Assembly 7 Occupancies and Membrane Structures, 2003 to 2007; 8 Industrial, Storage, and Miscellaneous Occupancies, 9 2000 to present. Technical Committees on: 10 Inspection, Testing, and Maintenance of Water Based 11 Systems, from 2001 to 2016; Commissioning and 12 Integrated Testing, 2001 to 2013; Rack Storage, from 13 1997 to 1999; the Fire Prevention Code, from 1997 to 14 1999; General Storage, from 1997 to 2003; Water Tanks, 15 from 1996 to 2005. Additionally, he has served on the 16 Automatic Sprinkler Systems Technical Committees on: 17 Sprinkler Systems Discharge Criteria, 1997 to present; 18 and finally, the Private Water Supply Piping Systems, 19 from 1996 to 2001. 20 KERRY BELL: Thank you, Roland, for your may 21 years of service to NFPA and the Standards Development 22 Process. 23 Now, the next award goes to Alan Manche. Alan, 24 please join me on stage here. 25 (applause)

27 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAWN BELLIS: Alan Manche of Schneider Electric 2 in Lexington, Kentucky, serves on: The Correlating 3 Committee on the National Electrical Code, from 2012 4 to present; and these associated panels and 5 committees: Code-Making Panel 2, from 2014 to 6 present; Code-Making Panel 20, from 2006 to 2007; 7 Code-Making Panel 10, 2005 to present; Emergency Power 8 Supplies, 2003 to present. Electrical Equipment 9 Maintenance, 2000 to present, being the Chair since 10 2011; Electrical Systems Maintenance from 1999 to 11 present; and finally, Code-Making Panel 8, 1999 to 12 2005. 13 KERRY BELL: Thank you, Alan, for your many 14 years of service to NFPA and the Standards Development 15 Process. 16 Now, the next recipient of the Committee 17 Service Award goes to Susan McLaughlin. Susan, please 18 join me on the stage. 19 (applause) 20 DAWN BELLIS: Susan McLaughlin of MSL Health 21 Care Partners in Barrington, Illinois serves on: The 22 Correlating Committee on Health Care Facilities, from 23 2012 to present; and these associated Technical 24 Committees: Health Care Emergency Management and 25 Security, from 1999 to the present. She's been Chair

28 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 since 2012. Health Care Emergency Preparedness and 2 Disaster Planning, 1999 to 2000; and Laboratories, 3 from 1997 to 2007, serving as Chair from 2000 to 2007. 4 She has also served on the Technical Committees on: 5 Emergency Management and Business Continuity, serving 6 from 2005 to 2009; and Incinerators and Waste Handling 7 Systems, from 1999 until 2002. 8 KERRY BELL: Thank you, Susan, for your many 9 years of service to NFPA and the Standards Development 10 Process. 11 Now, the next award goes to James Mundy. 12 James, please join me on stage. 13 (applause 14 DAWN BELLIS: James Mundy of Asset Protection 15 Associates, Ltd. In Wantagh, New York serves on: The 16 Correlating Committee on Signaling Systems for the 17 Protection of Life and Property, from 1996 to the 18 present; and these associated Technical Committees: 19 Fundamentals of Fire Alarm and Signaling Systems, from 20 1992 until the present; and Carbon Monoxide Detection, 21 1996 through 2004; and again, serving in 2008 through 22 2018. He's also served on the Technical Committees 23 on: Commissioning and Integrated Testing, from 2018 24 to present; Cultural Resources, from 2003 to 2004; 25 Fire Safety and Emergency Symbols, from 1996 to the

29 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 present, being Chair since 2015 on that Technical 2 Committee; Building Code and Safety to Life Technical 3 Committees on: Fundamentals, from 2017 until the 4 present; as well as Building Service and Fire 5 Protection Equipment, 2003 to 2004; and the 6 Correlating Committee on the Building Code, from 2003 7 until 2004. 8 KERRY BELL: Thank you, James, for your many 9 years of service to NFPA and the Standards Development 10 Process. 11 Now, let's bring up our next award winner, 12 Vincent Saporita. 13 (applause) 14 DAWN BELLIS: Vincent Saporita of Eaton's 15 Bussmann Business in Villa Ridge, Missouri, serves on: 16 The Correlating Committee on the National Electrical 17 Code, from 2012 to 2019; and these associated panels 18 and committees: Code-Making Panel 11, from 1993 until 19 the present; Electrical Safety in the Workplace, from 20 1997 until 2016; and Code-Making Panel 10, 1993 'til 21 the present. 22 KERRY BELL: Great. Thank you, Vincent, for 23 your many years of service to NFPA and the Standards 24 Development Process. 25 Now, the next award we have is for Fred Walker.

30 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Fred, please join me on stage. 2 (applause) 3 DAWN BELLIS: Fred Walker of the US Department 4 of the Air Force in Panama City, Florida serves on: 5 The NEC's Code-Making Panel 14, from 1991 until the 6 present; Building Code & Safety to Life Technical 7 Committees on: Educational and Daycare Occupancies, 8 2001 to 2005; and Residential Occupancies, 2001 to 9 2005. Fred has also served in Technical Committees 10 on: Gaseous Fire Extinguishing Systems, from 2005 to 11 the present; Emergency Medical Services, from 2000 to 12 2009; Fire and Emergency Services Technical Committees 13 on Special Operations Protective Clothing and 14 Equipment, 1998 through 2000; Airport Facilities from 15 1987 until today; and Halogenated Fire Extinguishing 16 Systems, from 1987 to 2005. His remaining work was, 17 was done on the Automatic Sprinkler Systems Technical 18 Committee on Foam-Water Sprinklers, from 1987 until 19 2014. 20 KERRY BELL: Thank you, Fred, for your many 21 years of service to NFPA and the Standards Development 22 Process. 23 Now, we have six other Committee Service Award 24 recipients who are not with us here today. But we'd 25 like to acknowledge them and thank them for their

31 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 service, despite their absence. 2 DAWN BELLIS: The remaining NFPA Technical 3 Committee members receiving awards today are: David 4 Burkhart, Code Consultants, Incorporated, in St. 5 Louis, Missouri. David serves on: Automatic 6 Sprinkler Systems Technical Committees on: Sprinkler 7 System Installation Criteria, from 2013 until the 8 present; and Foam-Water Sprinklers in 1997. He's also 9 served on the Technical Committees on: Aircraft 10 Maintenance Operations, from 2010 as Chair, to the 11 present; Portable Fire Extinguishers, from 2000 to the 12 present, being Chair from 2000 until 2010; Signaling 13 Systems - Protective Premises Fire Alarm and Signaling 14 Systems, from 1999 to the present; Cleanrooms, 1997 to 15 1999; and Airport Facilities, from 1991 to the 16 present. 17 Our next recipient is Jonathan Humble, of 18 American Iron and Steel Institute in West Hartford 19 Connecticut. Jonathan serves on: The Building Code 20 and Safety to Life Technical Committees on: 21 Fundamentals, from 2003 to 2006, and again from 2012 22 to the present; Industrial, Storage, and Miscellaneous 23 Occupancies, 2000 to the present; Assembly 24 Occupancies, 2000 to the present; Fire Protection 25 Features, 1996 to the present; Mercantile and Business

32 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Occupancies, 1996 to the present. He also served on 2 the Technical Committees on: Garages and Parking 3 Structures, from 2015 to the present; Building Code 4 Technical Committee on Building Construction, 2008 to 5 the present; Safety to Life Technical Committee on 6 Alternative Approaches to Life Safety, 1996 to the 7 present; and the Correlating Committee on Building 8 Code, 2008 to the present. 9 Next, we'd like to recognize Peter Larrimer of 10 the US Department of Veteran Affairs in Valencia, 11 Pennsylvania. Peter serves on: The Correlating 12 Committee on Signaling Systems for the Protection of 13 Life and Property, from 1999 until the present; the 14 associated Technical Committees for signaling systems, 15 including: Testing and Maintenance of Fire Alarm and 16 Signaling Systems, from 1994 until the present; and 17 Protected Business - excuse me - Protected Premises 18 Fire Alarm and Signaling Systems, 1994 to the present. 19 The Building Code and Safety to Life Technical 20 Committees on: Board and Care Facilities, 2013 to the 21 present; Health Care Occupancies, 2006 to the present; 22 Building Service and Fire Protection Equipment, 1994 23 to the present. He also serves on the Technical 24 Committees on: Inspection, Testing, and Maintenance 25 of Water-Based Systems, 1997 to the present; Safety to

33 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Life - Alternative Approaches to Life Safety, 2005 to 2 the present, serving as Chair since 2019; as well as 3 The Correlating Committee on Safety to Life, from 2019 4 to present. 5 Next, we would like to recognize Glenn 6 McGinley, II, Ohio Public Employment Risk Reduction 7 Program, in Maumee, Ohio. Glenn serves on: The 8 Technical Committees on: Confined Space Safe Work 9 Practices, from 2019 to present - excuse me, 2009 to 10 the present; Wastewater Treatment Plants, 2003 to the 11 present, being Chair since 2008. 12 Next, Andrew Minister of Kennewick, Washington. 13 Andrew serves on: The Technical Committee on 14 Laboratories Using Chemicals, from 1995 to the 15 present, being Chair since 2007. 16 And finally, David Wallis, a Consultant from 17 Parkville, Maryland. David serves on the Technical 18 Committee on Electrical Safety in the Workplace. He's 19 served on this committee since 1998, and now, 20 currently still participates in that Committee work. 21 KERRY BELL: Again, let's show our thanks and 22 appreciation for all these award recipients. 23 (applause) 24 KERRY BELL: Now, with that, I'm going to turn 25 the floor over to Presiding Officer Dan O'Connor, who

34 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 is going to move forward and proceed with the order of 2 business for the 2019 Technical Meeting. Dan? 3 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Kerry. Good morning, 4 everybody. As introduced, I am Dan O'Connor, and as 5 Presiding Officer, I declare that a quorum is present 6 for purposes of conducting business. 7 Let me remind you, being a safety organization, 8 NFPA is always concerned for your safety. Please look 9 around for the marked exits. In the event of an 10 emergency in the convention center, dial 9-1-1 from 11 your phone, and notify the operator that you are a 12 guest or employee at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention 13 Center, 900 East Market Street. If there is an 14 emergency requiring evacuation, please follow the 15 direction provided by the voice announcement from the 16 fire alarm after the horns and strobe lights go off. 17 Evacuate following the exit signs, NFPA staff, and the 18 Convention Center Emergency Management Team staff. In 19 the event of a fire incident, the fire alarm signal is 20 a loud beeping sound, along with flashing strobe 21 lights, followed by a voice announcement. If you hear 22 the alarm, please quietly leave the room using the 23 exit nearest you. Again, be mindful, and remember 24 that the nearest exit may be behind you. 25 If you are a person with disabilities who has

35 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 not already made arrangements with NFPA staff for 2 emergency evacuation, please do so at the registration 3 desk at this time. More details regarding evacuation 4 may be found under General Info on the mobile app. 5 During the Technical Meeting, we'd like to 6 remind you that the use of recording devices of any 7 type is prohibited. 8 The votes cast today at the Technical Meeting, 9 in conjunction with the debate prior to voting, are an 10 integral and important contribution to the NFPA's 11 consensus process. Through motions, debate, and 12 voting, you, our NFPA Membership, make recommendations 13 to the Standards Council. The majority vote results 14 today are for the sole purpose of providing 15 recommendations to the Standards Council prior to the 16 issuance of standards. 17 Any appeal based upon Technical Meeting actions 18 must be filed with the Standards Council by July 10, 19 2019 - that is, 20 days following the adjournment of 20 this meeting. An appeal for any amendment passed at 21 this meeting which fails Technical Committee or 22 Correlating Committee ballot, shall be filed no later 23 than five (5) days after publication of the Technical 24 Committee ballot results, in accordance with Section 25 1.6.2(b) of the Regs. Typically, results of amendment

36 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ballots are published within 20 days of the Technical 2 Meeting adjournment. 3 The Standards Council decision on issuance is 4 based upon the entire record before it, including the 5 debate and resulting votes at this Technical Meeting. 6 The Standards Council will meet on August 5th, 6th, and 7 7th, 2019 to hear appeals and make the final 8 determinations on issuing standards. 9 Today's session will include Certified Amending 10 Motions related to the following NFPA Standards: NFPA 11 25, 58, 70, 130, 302, 502, 654, 801, 855, 1851, and 12 1961. 13 Before we move on to the business of the day, 14 let's confirm that your voting devices are 15 operational. The sample motion you see on the screens 16 - or you will soon see on your screens - are ready for 17 your preview. I will call for a 'test' vote after you 18 have time to read the text presented. 19 The motion on the floor is to Accept Public 20 Comment No. 16. Is there further discussion on Motion 21 2019-1 to Accept Public Comment No. 16? Seeing none, 22 we will move to vote on Motion 2019-1. 23 So on your voting device, you will see the 24 motion number that is being balloted. Touch the 25 'vote' button for that identified motion. This will

37 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 initiate the screen for voting. If you wish to vote 2 in support of the motion, touch 'Yes', associated with 3 the green background. If you wish to vote against the 4 motion, touch 'No', associated with the red 5 background. You may change your vote at any time, 6 until my announcement that voting is closed. Please 7 record your vote now. 8 Voting will close in five seconds. 9 Voting is now closed. 10 The results of the 'test' vote are - should we 11 coming up - we'll have it for you in a second. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 13 DAN O'CONNOR: Technical glitch. 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 15 DAN O'CONNOR: Yeah. Be patient. We'll have, 16 have the test and make sure it's, everything's working 17 fine here in a second. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Here we go. So the 20 results of the 'test' vote are: 468 in support of the 21 motion, recommend the test on Screen One; and 272 22 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 23 Two. The motion has passed. 24 Okay. It's - keep changing, though. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay.

38 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. I think what we - what we 2 want to - what we want to do here, folks, we want to 3 make sure everything's working well today, before we 4 get into the actual document votes. So we're going to 5 try this again. So let's just go, let's just go 6 through this one more time, and make sure everything 7 is working right. So -- 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hold on one second. 9 DAN O'CONNOR: Hold on. We'll hold on. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Those (unintelligible) always 12 cause me problems, anyways. 13 (laughter) 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) the 15 results back up? (unintelligible) bring those results 16 back up. (unintelligible) 17 DAN O'CONNOR: Forty-eight, 282, okay. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Sure. Are we going to go ahead 20 and (unintelligible) -- 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) go 22 ahead and -- 23 DAN O'CONNOR: We'll test again -- 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- doing the test again? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

39 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Run it through one more 3 time. Okay. 4 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Okay, folks. Thanks for 5 your patience this morning on this. We, we do want to 6 make sure the voting works correctly here. So I'm 7 going to take it from the top again. 8 The motion on the floor is to accept - I would 9 - are you guys ready? Yeah. Okay. The motion on the 10 floor is to Accept Public Comment No. 16. Is there 11 any further discussion on Motion 2019-1, to Accept 12 Public Comment, No. 16? Seeing none, we will move to 13 vote on Motion 2019-1. 14 On your voting device, you will see the motion 15 number that is being balloted. Touch the 'vote' 16 button for that identified motion. This will initiate 17 the screen for voting. If you wish to vote in support 18 of the motion, touch 'Yes', associated with the green 19 button. And if you wish to vote against the motion, 20 touch 'No', associated with the red background. You 21 may change your vote at any time, until my 22 announcement that voting is closed. Please record 23 your vote now. 24 Voting will close in five seconds. 25 Voting is now closed.

40 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The results of the 'test' vote are: 431 in 2 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 3 Screen One; and 348 against the motion, and recommend 4 the text on Screen Two. The motion has passed. 5 Okay. Thank you for your patience on that. 6 Okay. The tablet will automatically return to 7 the home page after recording your vote for each 8 motion. If there is a follow-up motion, or a call- 9 the-question motion today, the voting button for those 10 motions will be found at the bottom of the list of 11 motions, meaning you'll have to scroll all the way 12 down to the bottom to find that. The Presiding 13 Officer will remind you of the location if either of 14 these motions is made. 15 If for any reason you leave the Tech Session 16 and turn in your tablet, upon your return the NFPA 17 staff will re-scan your badge, and assign you another 18 tablet. Because your voting is linked to your NFPA 19 badge ID, a newly assigned tablet will recall your 20 votes from earlier, and record any new votes. 21 Following the conclusion of today's session, all 22 recorded votes will be purged. NFPA will not maintain 23 anyone's voting record. 24 Let me reiterate that the tablet is assigned by 25 the NFPA badge ID, and you are responsible for

41 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 returning the tablet at the end of today's session. 2 However, a Help Desk is available throughout 3 the duration of the Tech Session, should you have any 4 questions, concerns, or experience difficulties. 5 Now, I have two announcements today regarding 6 our Agenda. We will be changing the order of some 7 NFPA 70 Motions in the Agenda. Motion 70-2 will be 8 discussed following Motion 70-36; and Motion 70-3 will 9 be discussed following Motion 70-40. 10 Additionally, the submitter of Motions 70-20 11 through 24 has requested that we reorder these 12 motions. The Motions Committee will accommodate this 13 request, and those motions will be heard as follows: 14 70-21, 70-22, 70-23, 70-24, and 70-20. 15 There is one more change to the Agenda I'd like 16 to note for you. NFPA and the submitter of Motion 17 130-1 have clarified his intentions regarding Motion 18 130-1. Based on those conversations, Motion 130-1 has 19 been reflectively amended to Reject an Identifiable 20 Part of Second Revision No. 23. Please note that this 21 amendment - the text will appear on the screens when 22 this motion is made, will reflect the changes. 23 Now that, we hope, you are all comfortable with 24 the process and your voting device, we will begin. 25 The first report under consideration this

42 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 morning is that of the Technical Committee on 2 Inspection, Testing, and Maintenance of Water-Based 3 Systems. Here to present the Committee Report is 4 Committee Chair, William Koffel of Koffel Associates, 5 Columbia, Maryland. The Committee Report, that is the 6 First and Second Draft Reports, is located on the 7 Document Information Page for NFPA 25 on the NFPA 8 website. All Certified Amending Motions are contained 9 in the NFPA Technical Meeting (Tech Session) Agenda, 10 and will be displayed behind me, on the screen, as 11 they are under debate. 12 Mr. Koffel will be stepping down as Chair due 13 to the tenure policy, and I would like to express our 14 thanks to Bill for his leadership. Thank you, Bill. 15 (applause) 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. Koffel, will you present the 17 Chair Report? 18 BILL KOFFEL: Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, 19 the Report of the Technical Committee on Inspection, 20 Testing, and Maintenance of Water-Based Systems is 21 presented as found in the First Draft Report, and the 22 Second Draft Report for the 2019 annual revision 23 cycle. The Technical Committee has published a First 24 and Second Draft Report consisting of revisions to 25 NFPA 25, the Standard for the Inspection, Testing, and

43 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Maintenance of Water-Based Fire Protection Systems. 2 The revisions were submitted to letter ballot of the 3 responsible Technical Committee. The reports and 4 ballot results can be found on the Next Edition tab of 5 the Document Information Page for NFPA 25, at 6 www.nfpa.org/25next. Mr. Chair, I move, for Standards 7 Council issuance, the Committee's Report on NFPA 25. 8 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Koffel. Let's 9 now proceed with the discussion on Certified Amending 10 Motions on NFPA 25-1. Microphone? Anybody at the 11 microphone? Was -- 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right here. 13 DAN O'CONNOR: Microphone number four, please. 14 MARK HOPKINS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. My 15 name is Mark Hopkins. I'm with the National Fire 16 Sprinkler Association, representing our Engineering 17 and Standards Committee. We're looking to remove the 18 text that requires inspection of the General 19 Information sign. This is believed -- 20 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. Hopkins? 21 MARK HOPKINS: Yes, Sir. 22 DAN O'CONNOR: I'd like - get you to the - 23 please make the motion. 24 MARK HOPKINS: I'm sorry, Sir. I would like to 25 make the motion to accept 25-1.

44 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: So your motion is - to be clear 2 - there's a motion on the floor to Accept Public 3 Comment No. 49? 4 MARK HOPKINS: To accept the motion for 25-1. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. The motion - that motion 6 is to Accept Public Comment No. 49. Is there a 7 second? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 10 MARK HOPKINS: Thank you. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. We do have a second. Mr. 12 Hopkins, would you - just for clarity, would you just 13 please describe your, your position, and your company 14 again, please. 15 MARK HOPKINS: Yes, Sir. Thank you. My name 16 is Mark Hopkins. I represent the National Fire 17 Sprinklers Association's Engineering and Standards 18 Committee. And we're looking to remove the text in 19 Section 528 regarding the General Information sign. 20 This is part of the requirements for NFPA 13 that had 21 been added in the 2007 edition, and subsequently, text 22 had been added into NFPA 25 in the 2011 edition, 23 regarding an Information Sign to cover sprinkler 24 systems that had been in place prior to the adoption 25 of the 2007 edition of NFPA 13. In the 2014 cycle,

45 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 this text was added, now requiring retroactive 2 compliance with the General Information resign - sign 3 requirement of NFPA 13. It already exists in NFPA 13, 4 so there's no need to have this in NFPA 25. Thank 5 you. 6 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Hopkins. Mr. 7 Koffel, would you like to offer the Committee's 8 position? 9 BILL KOFFEL: Yes. Mr. Hopkins is correct that 10 this is a relatively new requirement in NFPA 13, new 11 to the 2007 edition of NFPA 13. And as he noted, this 12 inspection requirement has now been in several 13 editions of NFPA 25. The Committee believes that the 14 General Information sign provides valuable information 15 regarding the system, and therefore, should be an item 16 that is inspected when required by the, the Standard 17 NFPA 13. We have added an Annex Note in Chapter Four, 18 where there is a requirement for another information 19 sign that is less restrictive, or it contains less 20 detail than what the General Information sign does, 21 that notes that systems installed prior to the 2007 22 edition of NFPA 13 should be inspected per the 23 information sign required in Chapter Four, and not the 24 General Information sign required in Chapter Five. 25 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Gentlemen. With

46 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 that, we will open up debate on the motion. And I'd 2 ask you, when you start, please provide your name, 3 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support 4 of, or against the motion. Microphone number four, 5 please. 6 GEORGE STANLEY: Hi. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 7 My name is George Stanley. I'm with Wiginton Fire 8 Protection Engineering, and I'm in - speaking in favor 9 of the motion. I must be crazy to be speaking in 10 favor of this motion, because my company does 11 inspection. And why would I not want to inspect this 12 information sign? Why would I want to save the 13 customer money when this sign is missing? Just to 14 determine if the sign is required could cost the owner 15 hundreds of dollars. To replace the sign, it could 16 cost the owner thousands of dollars. 17 This information sign, as was stated, is not 18 required 'til the 2007 edition of NFPA 13. Well, 19 think about that. There's probably only, maybe 5% of 20 the systems out there that require this sign. But 21 yet, we have to go to every property, and try to 22 inspect this sign, and then determine if it was 23 required, if the system was installed, the 2007 24 edition or later. So that costs the owner money. 25 If the sign was required, and is now missing,

47 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 what does it take to replace that sign? And let's 2 look at what's on the sign. Occupancy classification, 3 commodity classification, so - presence of high piled 4 storage, maximum height of the storage. So some type 5 of engineering evaluation would have to take place. 6 This could cost the owner again, thousands of dollars. 7 The original main drain test - well, if I have the as- 8 built drawings, the original test papers, I might be 9 able to get - basically, you'd have to do a total 10 engineering evaluation. 11 Some municipalities are now having the fire 12 inspectors go in, and they're writing up the property 13 owners. So now we have to determine whether that sign 14 was ever required. We're not losing buildings because 15 of a missing sign. So I would urge you to vote in 16 favor of this motion. Thank you. 17 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Thank you, Sir. I will 18 move to microphone - the gentleman at microphone 19 number six. 20 KEITH HATTLER (phonetic): Thank you, Dan. My 21 name is Keith Hattler, representing myself - against 22 the motion. As an authority having jurisdiction, this 23 requirement adds value - value to the sprinkler 24 system. It's been successful in the jurisdictions 25 that I've been in. It gives us the reference for the

48 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 owner to be successful in decision making at that 2 point. It is a positive. If we remove this, it will 3 be a negative. 4 When authorities having jurisdiction are asked 5 about their system, it - and we cannot answer, and we 6 ask them, or tell them to go and find more 7 information, we're labelled as obstructionists. This 8 sign is long term business friendly. It saves time. 9 It's a quick reference source. Where's that original 10 main drain test? That inspector that's doing the main 11 drain test right then and there will know if there's a 12 possible obstruction if the numbers go down. Please, 13 set the - if, if you vote for this motion, you are 14 setting the owner up for failure. Thank you. Vote 15 against. 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Is there - is - gentleman 17 at microphone number six? Yes. 18 BOB CAPUTO: Thank you, Sir. My name is Bob 19 Caputo. I represent Fire and Life Safety America. I 20 move - I am speaking against the motion on the floor. 21 This information sign is required by NFPA 13, and 22 provides all of the relevant data for the design 23 criteria of the system, along with the original flow 24 test data, as well as the arrangement of storage, 25 commodities stored.

49 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The one thing we're guaranteed in so many 2 buildings, is change - whether it's change in 3 occupant, ownership, methods of storage, packaging 4 materials, and so on. This information on this sign 5 is critical from the onset, because we are not very 6 likely to find the original as-built drawings or 7 design criteria years later. While I agree that there 8 might be some difficulty in determining if this system 9 was installed prior or after to the 2007 edition, 50 10 years from now, that minimal percentage of newer 11 systems certainly will be more pervasive, and 50 years 12 from now, there'll be someone else using that data to 13 the benefit of the owner, the benefit of the AHJ, and 14 the benefit of good fire and life safety. 15 I urge you to vote against this requirement. 16 This sign - this requirement, if you will, is no 17 different than the requirement to verify that the 18 hydraulic data nameplate is present. But there is no 19 retrofit requirement for this, and there's no 20 requirement in 25 that says if the sign is not 21 present, I have to go back and conduct a design 22 evaluation to reestablish the data, as we do now 23 require for the hydraulic data nameplate. So there is 24 not a retrofit cost to the owner. It's valuable 25 information. It's invaluable for AHJs, as occupancies

50 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 change. There's no other or better way to find this 2 information. It's a benefit to the owner, not a 3 hindrance. I encourage you to vote negative. Thank 4 you. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. I will move to 6 the gentleman at microphone number four. 7 MARK HOPKINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, 8 Mark Hopkins, NFSA. I just wanted to bring up a 9 couple of points. Part of the challenge is that this 10 is -- 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. Hopkins -- 12 MARK HOPKINS: Yes, Sir. 13 DAN O'CONNOR: -- you are -- 14 MARK HOPKINS: I'm in favor of the motion. 15 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. 16 MARK HOPKINS: Okay. Part of the challenge is 17 that there are many jurisdictions that are looking at 18 this as a retrofit requirement. So although we 19 completely agree that there is value to having this, 20 and its place is in NFPA 13 which provides the basic 21 requirement, so the information sign would be provided 22 with the original system installation; for any system 23 in accordance with NFPA 2007 edition of two thousand - 24 oh, I'm sorry, NFPA 2007 edition or later. So we 25 aren't arguing that that has merit, has value. All,

51 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 all that we're trying to make the point is that we 2 have an issue with trying to achieve 100% compliance 3 of inspection, testing, and maintenance. This is one 4 situation where it's placing AHJs against contractors 5 for no apparent reason, because it's being interpreted 6 as a retrofit requirement, which acts completely 7 against this move to get 100% compliance. 8 So we have reference to big data and 9 collection, but we also have an attempt to try to 10 achieve better compliance. This helps to work against 11 that cause. So we urge you to vote in favor of this 12 motion. Thank you. 13 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Is there any further 14 discussion on Motion 25-1 to Accept Public Comment No. 15 49? Okay. Mr. Chair, do you have any final comments? 16 MR. KOFFEL: No, Sir. 17 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Seeing there's no other 18 further comments, we will move to a vote. Thank you, 19 Mr. Chair. 20 Before we - we - but before we vote, let me 21 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 22 Accept Public Comment No. 49. To vote, touch the 23 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 24 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 25 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and

52 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 2 record your vote. 3 The voting will close in five seconds. 4 The voting is closed. 5 The results of the vote are: 211 in support of 6 the motion and recommend the text on Screen One; and 7 408 against the motion, and recommend the text on 8 Screen Two. The motion has failed. 9 Okay. We'll now proceed with the discussion on 10 Certified Amending Motion 25-2. Microphone number 11 one, please. 12 JAMES PETERKIN: Yes. James Peterkin, TLC 13 Engineering Solutions, and I'd like to move to Accept 14 Certified Amended Motion 25-2, which is to Reject 15 Second Revision 42. 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. There is a 17 motion on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 42. 18 Is there a second? Okay, I heard a second there. We 19 do have a second. Please proceed with the discussion 20 on the motion. 21 JAMES PETERKIN: Yes. So we, we understand 22 what the Committee is trying to do here and, and don't 23 necessarily have issue with the concept, but I think 24 some words that they're using are incorrect, or, or 25 have some consequences that go too far.

53 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 In the First Revision, they added some language 2 to try to define deficiencies when doing fire pump 3 tests, that the fire pump performance has degraded. 4 But in the Second Revision, they went a little too far 5 and called a pump that still meets the, the system 6 demand, a deficiency. And if the system demand is 7 met, how is that a deficiency. 8 The second thing, which is more important, is 9 that they called a - when a system maximum demand is 10 not met, it is an impairment. An impairments - words 11 having meaning. And an, an impairment is a system is 12 out of service. We all know that, like 95% of fires 13 are controlled by five sprinklers. A fire pump that 14 is deficient but still in service can still provide 15 protection. An impairment means that a facility has 16 to be either evacuated, or a fire service, or I mean a 17 fire watch has to be implemented. What's the fire 18 watch going to do? We have sprinklers in service. We 19 are going to get water flow. We are going to get 20 notification. It's not an impairment. It's a 21 deficiency. It does have to be addressed. It has to 22 be corrected. But impairment's the wrong word, and 23 that has consequences that are a little far reaching. 24 So I'd urge you to support the motion. 25 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Mr. Koffel, would

54 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 you like to give the Committee's position? 2 BILL KOFFEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. While I 3 suspect most of the discussion will focus on parens 4 (3), there probably are two technical changes related 5 to this motion. You will note in parens (4) that if 6 the motion passes, excessive vibration is identified 7 as a deficiency only if the pump performance has 8 degraded. The Committee made a change to say that 9 excessive vibration discovered during the test of a 10 pump is a deficiency, even if it did not adversely 11 affect the performance of the pump. 12 However, again, I think the real focus is on 13 parens (3), and as was stated by the maker of the 14 motion, the issue is, do we call this a deficiency, or 15 do we call this an impairment? 16 So currently the Standard indicates that we 17 permit some degradation of the pump, 5% degradation, 18 provided it still meets system demand, and if I exceed 19 that 5% but still meet system demand, an investigation 20 needs to be performed as to why your pump degradation 21 has occurred. With this language, at any point in 22 time if I go below the system demand, it will be 23 classified as an impairment. 24 And then finally, I would just note for the 25 record - and I don't think this should influence

55 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 anybody's vote - that if this motion passes, there 2 most likely needs to be some editorial correlation 3 between this language and the language in 8.3.7.2.3, 4 because we made some changes in that section. The 5 references identified in the motion are no longer 6 correct, but there's also some editorial language 7 change that would probably be needed. Again, I don't 8 think that should influence anybody's vote. I just 9 want to make sure that's on the record. 10 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With 11 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Again, 12 please provide your name, affiliation, and whether you 13 are speaking in support of, or against the motion. 14 Microphone number six, please. 15 BOB CAPUTO: Thank you. Bob Caputo, Fire and 16 Life Safety America, speaking against the motion. The 17 problem with the motion is that, while I agree that a 18 degraded pump performance above the 5% mark isn't a 19 problem, when we have a pump that doesn't meet system 20 demand, that is our water supply. If we do not meet 21 system demand, this is a serious situation, especially 22 in hospital or healthcare occupancies. Because this 23 proposed motion doesn't quantify or qualify what the 24 degraded performance could be, if my performance of my 25 pump is 5% below system demand, 10%, 40% - it's all

56 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 lumped together to say this is just a deficiency, and 2 not a, an impairment. 3 If my water supply is not robust enough in flow 4 or pressure to meet my system demand, that is clearly 5 and absolutely a condition that rises to immediate 6 concern - perhaps not in your warehouse, protecting 7 boxes; but certainly in healthcare facilities, office 8 buildings, residential occupancies - this is a bridge 9 too far for me. 10 If the proponent had put a qualified percentage 11 of degradation below system demand, I perhaps could 12 have supported this. But this is just too broad. 13 This needs to remain an impairment. Thank you. 14 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. Microphone 15 number three. 16 TERRY VICTOR: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Terry 17 Victor with Johnson Controls Fire Protection. I'm 18 speaking against the motion. As Mr. Caputo has, has 19 said, the fact that a fire pump can't meet system 20 demand is, is a real problem. That's a water supply 21 that, that cannot supply the, the calculated demand 22 for the sprinkler system. But it doesn't just apply 23 to healthcare. The entire section on fire pumps 24 applies to all water based fire protection systems. 25 So while we have some ability to have sprinklers that

57 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 open up, you know, one or two usually control a fire, 2 we, we calculate for more than that in the system 3 demand, we also have systems such as water spray 4 systems, and foam systems that are protecting high 5 hazards that depend on that water supply to be exactly 6 as the system demand requires it - water spray, 7 especially. Every drop of water that's coming out of 8 that fire pump is needed to control that fire. High 9 rise - or high hazard warehousing, same situation. We 10 need that water supply to meet system demand to 11 control that fire in that warehouse. 12 And yes, calling it an impairment means that 13 you have some - something to do. Chapter 14 in NFPA 14 25 requires you to have either a fire watch, or to 15 take some other action in order to correct that 16 impairment. Unfortunately, by calling it a 17 deficiency, there's no urgency built into NFPA 25 to 18 have that deficiency corrected in any timely manner. 19 There's no benchmark, no 30 days, no two weeks. 20 Deficiencies can be corrected, you know, at any pace 21 in accordance with the building owner and the AHJ. So 22 there just isn't an urgency to take care of that, that 23 situation. 24 And a pump that's not meeting system demand 25 doesn't just happen overnight. That pump has been

58 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 degrading over time. If the annual tests are done in 2 accordance with NFPA 25, you would be seeing a gradual 3 decline in the ability of that pump to meet the system 4 demand, and actions should have been taken long before 5 it reached that threshold. So there's ample time to 6 correct a pump that's becoming deficient toward that 7 system demand line, and it, it needs to be at that 8 point, to make sure that it can provide the water 9 supply necessary for the systems. So I urge you to 10 vote opposed to this motion. Thank you. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Gentleman at 12 microphone number one. 13 DAVE DEGENAIS (phonetic): Yes, good morning. 14 Dave Degenais, speaking on behalf of the Healthcare 15 Section, in favor of the motion. 16 Yesterday at the Healthcare Section Membership 17 Meeting, the Membership voted to support this motion. 18 Healthcare believes this is, in fact, a problem that 19 needs to be addressed. We also believe there are 20 situations that exist, whether it's called a 21 deficiency or an impairment, that give expectations 22 around how this type of an issue would be addressed. 23 The true question to the Membership is, is this 24 a deficiency, or is it an impairment? So that's 25 easily answered by simply going to the definitions

59 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 that we have within NFPA 25. NFPA 25 says under 2 Deficiency, 3.3.8, and I will paraphrase - the - a 3 condition that has the potential to adversely in fact 4 the - affect the performance of the system. 5 Everything we're talking about - look at the, 6 what's on the screen. You see the word 'performance' 7 through all of the elements there. This is a 8 performance issue. And the definition says that if it 9 affects the performance, it is, in fact, a deficiency. 10 Furthermore, if you go down to the definition 11 of impairment, 3.3.22 - it says a condition - and I'm 12 paraphrasing - a condition with a system or a portion 13 of a system is out of order, and may not operate in 14 the event of a fire. This is not an out of order 15 item. It is in service. It has some deficiencies 16 that need to be corrected. For decades, we've been 17 working with the AHJ to work through all those, 18 through those deficiencies. The bottom line is that 19 this does not elevate to the level of an impairment. 20 So we've heard terms about the, the owners have 21 whatever time they want to fix it. That is not 22 factually true. We know that if we have a deficiency, 23 we must coordinate and, and, and work with the AHJ to 24 determine how that deficiency is going to be 25 corrected.

60 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 So I want to be clear. The Healthcare Section 2 does not think this should not be addressed. We fully 3 agree it should be addressed. What we're suggesting 4 is based on the definition, and based on the entire 5 premise of how items are addressed within NFPA 25, and 6 per the definition that exists in the document, this 7 is clearly a deficiency, and doesn't warrant the level 8 of an impairment. We request, and we urge you to vote 9 in favor of this motion. Thank you. 10 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. I'll move to microphone 11 number two. 12 MARK HOPKINS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm 13 in opposition of the motion. My name's Mark Hopkins. 14 I'm with NFSA. And I just wanted to add that this 15 issue of, of deficiencies versus impairments was 16 discussed at the NFPA 25 meetings in, in some detail, 17 and the information that Mr. Victor had provided was 18 considered to be imperative to the Committee as part 19 of the rationale to move this from a deficiency to an 20 impairment, since the pump was inadequate to provide 21 the system demand. So I thought it was important for 22 people to know that the Committee did have much debate 23 on this issue, and felt that this should raise to the 24 level of an impairment. Thank you, Sir. 25 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. I will move to

61 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 microphone number four, and then I will come back to 2 six after number four. 3 TIM CROUSHORE: My name's Tim Croushore, just 4 representing myself. I have a question on 5 Parliamentary procedure. When we get to vote, how to 6 we register an official abstention to the vote? Do we 7 just not vote? Because when I pressed the voting 8 button, I didn't have the option to register an 9 official abstention. We've heard a lot of good techs 10 back and forth, but I'm an electrical guy, and I don't 11 know which way to vote. So how do we record an 12 abstention? Just not vote? Or is, is that the way we 13 should do this? 14 DAN O'CONNOR: Well, choices are to vote for 15 the - 'Yes' on the green, green side, in favor; or 16 vote 'No' on the red side, against; or not vote. 17 TIM CROUSHORE: So an abstention would be no 18 vote. 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Yes. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 21 TIM CROUSHORE: Thank you. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: No. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, you would not vote. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's a -- 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's a (unintelligible)

62 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 vote, though. 2 DAN O'CONNOR: No, you're just not - you're 3 just not voting, Sir. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: There is no abstention. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: There's no absten-- a 'No' is 6 against the motion. Let me be clear. A 'No' is 7 against the motion. There is not an abstention; you 8 just do not vote. So if people do not wish to vote on 9 the issue, you do, do not press, press One or Two. Is 10 that clear? 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think that should be 12 clear. 13 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Okay. With that, we will 14 move back to microphone number six. 15 BOB CAPUTO: Thank you. Bob Caputo, Fire and 16 Life Safety America, speaking against the motion on 17 the floor. 18 Our firm performs in excess of 40,000 19 inspections per year, in about 46 states last year. 20 We do not report non-critical, or critical 21 deficiencies to AHJs unless they specifically require 22 us to do so. However, impairments are definitely 23 reported and immediately acted upon. In this case, we 24 are talking about the water supply to the system. 25 We're not really talking about a fire pump; we're

63 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 talking about the water supply. NFPA 13 defines the 2 fire pump as being the water supply. When the water 3 supply is not adequate in flow or pressure to meet 4 system demand, we do not have a situation that doesn't 5 need absolute immediate attention. So for that 6 reason, I encourage you to vote against this motion. 7 Thank you. 8 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. I am going to 9 move to microphone number one. 10 JONATHAN FLANNERY: Thank you. Jonathan 11 Flannery with the American Society for Healthcare 12 Engineering, in favor of the motion. What we'd like 13 to point out is the fact that the word 'deficiency' 14 has been in this requirement for a significantly long 15 time, and there's no documentation, or no issues that 16 we are aware of from the previous years where this has 17 been an issue, and has been dealt with in a regular 18 manner through working with the AHJs. So we believe 19 that it should remain as 'deficiency' and encourage 20 your vote for this. Thank you. 21 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Is there any further 22 discussion on Motion 25-2 to Reject Second Revision 23 No. 42? Mr. Chair, do you have any other comments? 24 BILL KOFFEL: I think the technical issues have 25 all been addressed by the discussion from the floor.

64 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I would just note, the ballot results of 34 eligible 2 voters, 27 members of the Committee voted affirmative; 3 seven voted negative. 4 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before we 5 vote, let me restate the motion. The motion on the 6 floor is to Reject Second Revision No. 42. To vote, 7 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 8 support of the motion and recommend the text on Screen 9 One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the 10 motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 11 'No'. Please record your vote. 12 The voting will close in five seconds. 13 The voting is closed. 14 Thank you. The results of the vote are: 170 15 in support of the motion, and recommend the text on 16 Screen One; and 374 against the motion, and recommend 17 the text on Screen Two. The motion has failed. 18 Okay. The next motion on NFPA 25-3 appeared in 19 our Agenda. Mr. Hopkins? 20 MARK HOPKINS: Yes. Yeah. 21 DAN O'CONNOR: Will you take -- 22 MARK HOPKINS: As the submitter of this motion, 23 I look to withdraw. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay, thank you. I was going to 25 save you the time of coming to the mic, but that's

65 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 fine. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 3 DAN O'CONNOR: The next motion, again, on NFPA 4 25-3, as appeared in our Agenda -- 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Wait. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 8 DAN O'CONNOR: Yeah. Appeared in our Agenda. 9 However, the authorized maker of the motion, the 10 designated representative, has notified NFPA that he 11 or she no longer wishes to pursue this motion. 12 Therefore, in accordance with NFPA rules, Convention 13 Rules at Section 2.7, the motion may not be considered 14 by the assembly, and is removed from the Agenda. We 15 will now move on to the next motion. 16 So now, let's proceed with the discussion on - 17 excuse me. Now, let's proceed with discussion on 18 Certified Amending Motion - microphone number four. 19 Mr. Hopkins again. 20 MARK HOPKINS: Yes, Sir. Thank you. I look to 21 make a motion to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 22 Comment 40. And my name is Mark Hopkins, with the 23 NFSA. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. There is a motion on 25 the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public

66 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Comment No. 40. Is there a second? 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 3 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. We do have a second. 4 Let's proceed with the discussion on the motion. Mr. 5 Hopkins. 6 MARK HOPKINS: Yes. Thank you, Sir. This 7 motion looks to remove text that was added as part of 8 the Second Revision, I believe it was 63, and add in 9 the text that was proposed as part of the Public 10 Comment 40. And the real intent here is to align the 11 requirements of NFPA 25 with the initial design 12 requirements of NFPA 13, and NFPA 72, to allow for an 13 identifiable pass/fail criteria for testing of flow 14 switches. 15 That's what we're trying to do here. We think 16 that the text provided in public comment better aligns 17 with those initial design requirements. Thank you. 18 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Mr. Koffel, would 19 you like to offer the Committee position? 20 BILL KOFFEL: Thank you. The Committee's 21 action on Public Comment No. 40 was to reject but see, 22 and created a Second Revision, which is the text that 23 you see on the screen, that would be the, the outcome 24 if the motion fails. 25 As the maker of the motion just indicated, the

67 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 primary issue here is the, the extent of specificity 2 that's provided in NFPA 25. The first paragraph is 3 fairly similar, although the new - the motion would 4 add the text 'until such flow stops'. 5 The second paragraph is really where the, the 6 more substantive change occurs. It references a 90- 7 second performance requirement. It indicates what the 8 flow should be; that it's the smallest orifice 9 sprinkler on the system. And that text is extracted 10 from NFPA 72. So absolutely, the motion would 11 correlate with NFPA 72. 12 However, throughout the Standard, where NFPA 72 13 is referenced, the Committee added text to refer to 14 the locally adopted Fire Alarm Code. This was 15 intended to allow for codes other than NFPA 72 in 16 jurisdictions around the world, that might be 17 applicable; or even if one does adopt NFPA 72 - and 18 I'm aware of some jurisdictions that do this - they 19 modify 72 to decrease that time period. So the 20 Committee felt the language proposed by the Committee 21 better addresses the universe of applications of NFPA 22 25. 23 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With 24 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Again, 25 please provide your name, affiliation, and whether you

68 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 are speaking in support of, or against the motion. 2 Microphone number one, please. 3 TERRY VICTOR: Thank you. Terry Victor, 4 Johnson Controls Fire Protection. I'm speaking in 5 favor of the motion. You're not seeing the text on 6 the board here that was part of the Second Revision, 7 and that text did, in fact, refer you to NFPA 72. All 8 we're trying to do here is to kind of simplify the 9 text that goes into NFPA 25. 10 Referring someone to 72, you have to go to that 11 additional document; where it's really simple - let's 12 just extract what 72 says, as far as the performance 13 of the water flow switch, and let's put it in NFPA 72. 14 And I understand that, you know, internationally, 15 they're, they're trying to gain acceptance for the 16 NFPA documents. This really helps that effort. 17 Instead of, again, a, a local fire code may have some 18 variances with this. But the 90 seconds is what we're 19 looking for, in reality, for these - the performance 20 of the flow switches. We want to have that signal 21 getting to the panel within 90 seconds. So it's, it's 22 a matter of trying to simplify some criteria that was 23 added. Again, this acceptance criteria wasn't in 24 previous editions of NFPA 25. So we're looking to 25 include this new criteria, the five seconds - or the

69 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 five minutes for, you know, water - just electric bell 2 or water gong, and then the 90 seconds when tied into 3 a fire alarm panel. So again, just trying to simplify 4 it. I urge you to vote in favor of the motion. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Is there any further 6 discussion on Motion 25-4, to Accept an Identifiable 7 Part of Public Comment No. 40? Okay. Seeing none, we 8 will move to a vote - except, Mr. Chair, do you have 9 any final comments? 10 BILL KOFFEL: No, Sir. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Before we vote, let 12 me restate the motion. 13 The motion on the floor is to Accept an 14 Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 40. To vote, 15 touch the 'vote' button. Then if you wish to vote in 16 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 17 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 18 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 19 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 20 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 21 MULTIPLE UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: No. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: No. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 25 MULTIPLE UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: No.

70 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We're offline. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We're offline. 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Offline. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 8 DAN O'CONNOR: Offline? Okay. I understand. 9 I'm hearing comments from the audience that they're 10 offline. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 12 DAN O'CONNOR: Is that correct? 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 14 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. We heard you 15 clearly. (laughter) Let us get back here and see if 16 we can get back online here shortly, and proceed with 17 the vote. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) on the 22 table. 23 (background voices) 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you for your patience. 25 (background voices)

71 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Thank you for your 2 patience, again, ladies and gentlemen. They are 3 working on resetting the system. We think we're going 4 to be back up and running very shortly here. So bear 5 with us. Thank you. 6 (background voices) 7 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. I've just been informed 8 that the process of resetting the system is going to 9 take another one to two minutes, and then we should be 10 back in business here. Okay. So thanks again for 11 your patience. 12 (background voices) 13 DAN O'CONNOR: And, and one more, one more 14 comment. There was a gentleman who had asked the 15 question about abstention earlier. I do want to make 16 it clear for all those of you voting today, that you 17 have basically just two options. You have the option 18 to vote 'Yes' on, and accept the, the motion. Or you 19 have the motion to vote 'No', and vote against the 20 motion. Those are your only two options for voting. 21 There is not a, an abstention option. Thank you. 22 (background voices) 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Ready to go? Okay. It looks 25 like we're ready to go here, folks.

72 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 2 DAN O'CONNOR: I'll give you a, a second to, to 3 take your seats, get back to your devices -- 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 5 DAN O'CONNOR: -- if you're standing up, 6 floating around. 7 (background voices) 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hit refresh. Try 9 refresh. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hit refresh. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Refresh work for -- 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mine came up. 14 (background voices) 15 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. I'm going to back up to 16 the point where I had asked earlier if there was any 17 further discussion. I, I, we had moved to the vote, 18 but I wanted to make sure we didn't miss something, 19 didn't get confused there. Was there any further 20 discussion on the motion? 21 (background voices) 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, device is not 23 working. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We can't vote. 25 (background voices)

73 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: You - still devices not working? 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ours are not. 3 (background voices) 4 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Green screens? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yellow. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 7 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay, we still have some - we -- 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, we don't 9 (unintelligible) 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Yeah. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We're aware. 13 DAN O'CONNOR: We are aware, and working on 14 that issue. 15 (background voices) 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. In order to not delay any 17 further, I would like all the NFPA staff that are hand 18 counters to come to the front of the room. We are 19 going to proceed with a hand count procedure -- 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 21 DAN O'CONNOR: -- as - so not to delay this 22 while the technical difficulties are resolved. So 23 NFPA staff that are hand counters, please come - 24 please come to the front. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible)

74 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: How many are there? 2 (background voices) 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 4 (background voices) 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Go get 'em, Jeff. 6 (background voices) 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What is the problem? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 10 (background voices) 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Anybody with yellow 12 screens. (unintelligible) yellow screen, please raise 13 your hand. 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, so 15 (unintelligible) 16 (background voices) 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: All right. Okay. 18 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Let me outline what's 19 going to happen next here. We are going to proceed 20 with a count, a standing count of, of, of voting 21 members. So we also understand that there might be 22 some of you seated at the tables in the voting area 23 that in fact, are not voting members. We are going to 24 trust you on your honor not to stand as I ask for the 25 vote today, okay, if you're, if you're seated at these

75 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 tables in the voting area. So please just stay 2 seated. But we will proceed with a standing vote. 3 I will first ask for a vote for those in favor, 4 and then a vote - and, and then I will ask you to sit 5 down, and then I will ask for a vote against. So. 6 Okay. 7 So before we, we vote, let me restate the 8 motion. The motion on the floor is to Accept an 9 Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 40. So to 10 vote - if you wish to vote in support of the motion, 11 that's the green screen, I would ask you to now stand. 12 We will need a, a minute or two for staff to go 13 through the aisles and get a count. 14 (background voices) 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. Okay. 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Oh. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Just a couple things 18 here. 19 (background voices) 20 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 22 DAN O'CONNOR: Yeah. Yeah. All of those who, 23 you've voted in favor of the motion, you may be 24 seated. And we will now ask for all of those who wish 25 to vote against the motion, and recommend the text on

76 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Screen Two, to now stand. 2 (background voices) 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Does anybody else have a 4 yellow screen here? 5 (background voices) 6 DAN O'CONNOR: You got everybody, right? Thank 7 you for that vote. You may be seated. 8 (background voices) 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Anyone else with a 10 yellow -- 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right over here. 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yellow? 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right here. 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right here. 15 (background voices) 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 180. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 180. We have the - any 18 yellows? Any yellow screens here? 19 (background voices) 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Everybody okay with 21 their application? 22 (background voices) 23 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We need anybody with a 25 yellow --

77 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Okay. Everybody in the 2 room, thank you very much for assisting us with that 3 process. The results of the vote are: 251 in support 4 of the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 5 and 142 against the motion, and recommend the text on 6 Screen Two. The motion has passed. 7 Okay. So because we have some technical 8 difficulties, I, I just want to outline for you what's 9 going to happen here, and then - for the short term. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you announce that if 11 it's a yellow screen to please raise their hand, 12 because staff is going to come reset their screens for 13 them. 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 15 DAN O'CONNOR: Right now? 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So if they're -- 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) yellow. 18 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Okay. If you have a 19 yellow screen, would you please raise your hand? 20 Anybody who has a yellow screen, please raise your 21 hand. Staff is going to come, and reset your screen 22 for you right now. Okay? Or raise your hand, or 23 maybe even - maybe you should stand up, because I 24 can't see the hands from - see it through the crowd 25 here.

78 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (background voices) 2 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. So what we're, what we - 3 what we want to do here - we're going to - we want to 4 keep moving forward here. And what we're going to do 5 is we're going to proceed to the legacy approach we've 6 used in NFPA conferences in the past, and we will be 7 asking for - what? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 9 DAN O'CONNOR: We're not going to do that? 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 11 (background voices) 12 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Okay. My confusion - 13 thing. So we, we've been here, talking about a number 14 of different approaches. We want to - we do want to 15 make progress here this morning, so -- 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It appears that -- 17 DAN O'CONNOR: -- we -- 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- everyone's back up 19 and running. 20 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So (unintelligible). 22 Just letting you know - sorry. 23 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. I've been informed 24 (laughter) that everything is back up and running, as 25 --

79 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (applause) 2 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. So -- 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 4 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. We're going to proceed 5 now with the discussion on Certified Amending Motion 6 25-5. And I see a gentleman at microphone number 7 four. Please give us - identify yourself, your 8 affiliation, and for or against the motion, Sir. 9 TOP MYERS: My name is Top Myers. I'm with 10 Myers Risk Services. I'm here Myers Risk Services. 11 I'm here in behalf of Tony Apfelbeck, who made the 12 motion, and the motion is that I'm - he - and I'm 13 following forward, is - we -- 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You've got to talk into 15 the microphone. 16 TOP MYERS: -- say yes. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Use the microphone. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Microphone. 19 (background voices) 20 DAN O'CONNOR: Excuse me. You, you are - Mr. 21 Myers, you are the maker of the motion, and for Mr. 22 Apfelbeck? 23 TOP MYERS: Yes. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. 25 TOP MYERS: And what we are is asking to - the

80 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 motion is to Accept the Original PC 60 from the last 2 cycle. 3 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Very good. Is there a 4 second? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 6 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay, we have a second. Please 7 proceed with the discussion on the motion - Mr. Myers. 8 TOP MYERS: This is a pretty straightforward 9 request. It's not overly technical, not really 10 technical at all. What we have currently is Appendix 11 G, as in George, and we, in that appendix, talk about 12 if somebody wanted to do a tagging system, how would 13 they go about it, and different parts and pieces from 14 the type of things you're covering, where you place 15 tags, the size of the tags - all kinds of information 16 that would be important in the process of creating and 17 developing a tagging system for a system - for 18 sprinkler systems, that's where you would go. 19 What Tony says is that in the code community, 20 he's had a number of people approach him because what 21 they've done, and asked if he could modify Appendix G, 22 changing the language to reflect how code language 23 should appear. And that's basically what Tony did. 24 He took the - all the same materials, and just put it 25 in the type of language that would be required for

81 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 endorsement. 2 This would allow any local AHJ, or community, 3 or state, or anybody else, to follow a pattern that 4 was - make their process far easier, using the 5 language that would be now the new language in Annex 6 G. 7 This also would have the benefit that over 8 time, there would - could be more uniformity 9 throughout the country, which would be beneficial to 10 owners, as well as national contractors - anybody 11 that's involved on a multiple jurisdiction space. 12 It's that simple, and we would ask you to 13 accept the motion. Thank you. 14 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Mr. Koffel, would you 15 like to offer the Committee's position? 16 BILL KOFFEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me 17 first clarify that this motion does not change 18 anything related to the existing text in Annex G. It 19 adds a new section. Annex G was originally added to 20 the Standard to provide guidance on what a tagging 21 system might be. It was not written in mandatory 22 language. This then takes the critical aspects of 23 other Annex G language, and puts it into mandatory 24 format. 25 However, the Committee felt that this was a

82 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 jurisdictional issue, and needed to be handled in 2 local ordinance, and amendments to locally adopted 3 codes and standards. As written, G3 really is not a 4 complete ordinance. I don't think it would meet the 5 legal requirements in most jurisdictions to simply 6 adopt that; it merely takes 'should' language, and 7 changes it to 'shall'. So the jurisdiction most 8 likely would still need to create a separate 9 ordinance, or modify their fire code to adopt this 10 language. So we felt this was a jurisdictional issue. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Thank you, gentlemen. 12 With that, we will open debate on the motion. Again, 13 please provide your name, your affiliation, and 14 whether you're speaking in support of, or against the 15 motion. Nobody? 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Nobody. 17 DAN O'CONNOR: I don't see any - oh. The 18 gentleman at microphone number four. 19 GEORGE STANLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 20 George Stanley, Wiginton Fire Protection Engineering, 21 speaking in favor of the motion. I'm a contractor in 22 Florida. We have a tagging system. And just changing 23 some of this language to make it more adoptable is a 24 good thing. The AHJs really appreciate this tagging, 25 that they can quickly see if there's any deficiencies

83 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 on the system, and how the system's doing. So I urge 2 you to vote in favor of it. Thank you. 3 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. I'm not seeing 4 anybody at the microphones. I - no. So, Mr. Chair, 5 do you have any final comments? 6 BILL KOFFEL: No, Sir. 7 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Okay. Before we 8 vote, let me restate the motion. The motion on the 9 floor is to Accept Public Comment No. 60. So we're 10 back to using the 'vote' button. So to vote, touch 11 the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of 12 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, 13 touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, 14 and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. 15 Please record your vote. 16 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 17 The voting is closed. Thank you. 18 The results of the vote are: 262 in support of 19 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 20 243 against the motion, and recommend the text on 21 Screen Two. The motion has passed. 22 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 25? 23 Seeing none, we will move on to the next document. 24 And thank you, Mr. Koffel. 25 BILL KOFFEL: Thank you.

84 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (applause) 2 DAN O'CONNOR: The next report under 3 consideration is that of the Technical Committee on 4 Motor Craft. Here to present the Committee's report 5 is Technical Committee Chair John McDevitt of Drexel 6 Hill, Pennsylvania. 7 The Committee Report, that is the First and 8 Second - Second Draft Reports is located on the 9 Document Information Page for NFPA 302 on the NFPA 10 website. All Certified Amending Motions are contained 11 in the NFPA Technical Meeting Agenda, and will be 12 displayed behind me on the screen as they are under 13 debate. Mr. McDevitt, will you present the Chair 14 Report. 15 JOHN MCDEVITT: Good morning, Mr. Chair, ladies 16 and gentleman. The Report of the Technical Committee 17 on Motor Craft is presented as found in the First 18 Draft Report, and Second Draft Report for the 2019 19 annual revision cycle. 20 The Technical Committee has published the First 21 and Second Draft Report consisting of these revisions 22 - Fire Protection Standard for Pleasure and Water and 23 Commercial Motor Craft, NFPA 302. The revisions were 24 submitted to letter ballot of the responsible 25 Technical Committee. The reports and ballot results

85 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 can be found in the Next Edition tab of the Document 2 Information Page, NFPA 302, at www.nfpa.org/302next. 3 Mr. Chairman, I move the Standards Council issuance of 4 the Committee's Report on NFPA 302. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. McDevitt. Let's 6 now proceed with the discussion on Certified Amending 7 Motion 302-1. Microphone number four, please. 8 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 9 International, and I move to Accept Public Comment No. 10 3. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. There is a motion on 12 the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 3. Is there a 13 second? 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 15 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Yes, we have a second. 16 Please proceed with the discussion on the motion. 17 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 18 International, speaking for NAFRA, and maker of the 19 motion. 20 First of all, let me apologize to the audience, 21 because I have a whole bunch of Certified Amending 22 Motions, that they all, most of them come now, one 23 after the other, so you're going to have to listen to 24 me for a while. But anyway - dealing with this 25 particular CAM - in every single transportation

86 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 environment, we have a requirement that we measure 2 smoke; we have some requirement for smoke obscuration. 3 We - if we're dealing with aircraft, it's the FAA. If 4 we're dealing with ships, it's NFPA 301, the 5 International Maritime Organization, the Coast Guard. 6 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. Hirschler, could you just 7 stay closer to the mic, please? 8 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: If we - if we're dealing 9 with NFPA - with trains, it's the NFPA, and the 10 Federal Railroad Administration. If we're dealing 11 with subways underground, it's NFPA 130, and the 12 individual requirements of the authorities having 13 jurisdiction. Dealing with busses, it's the FTA 14 guidelines. 15 NFPA 302 deals with small craft, but it does 16 not deal with personal watercraft. I am reading from 17 the scope, or application, actually. NFPA 302 deals 18 with the following - boats of less than 300 gross tons 19 used for pleasure or commercial purposes; boats that 20 use energy for propulsion; they use engines for 21 generating power; they use cooking, heating, or 22 auxiliary appliances, permanently installed ignition 23 sources, permanently installed electrical systems. 24 The motion recommends that when you conduct an 25 ASTM 84 test - that's the Standard (unintelligible)

87 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 for some of you who may not be as familiar as I am - 2 you also - you also get smoke measurements. You 3 always get them when you run the test, so it doesn't 4 mean that you have to do any additional tests. You 5 just do the same test over. This doesn't require any 6 additional test; you get the smoke values. 7 Class - Section 4.1.6.1 says you need an FSI of 8 25, but it doesn't require smoke. So I'm recommending 9 that you add smoke, the Standard Class A smoke of SDI 10 under 450. Thank you. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. Mr. McDevitt, 12 would you like to offer the Committee's position? 13 JOHN MCDEVITT: Yes, Sir. The majority of 14 vessels covered in NFPA 302 are pleasure craft - 15 pleasure crafts or small boats used for pleasure, 16 family, or sportsmen recreation. Generally, pleasure 17 craft is understood to be small to moderate sized boat 18 under 26 feet. The Technical Committee on Motor Craft 19 includes surveyors, retired US Coast Guard inspectors, 20 and these members have experience in the investigation 21 of incidents, including fires, and review of claims 22 and fire losses aboard small pleasure boats. No one 23 can recall an issue where smoke from insulating 24 materials ever being a concern, or contributor to loss 25 of life, additional property damage, or a hindrance in

88 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 firefighting efforts on a small pleasure craft. 2 In the First Draft, the Committee requested the 3 submitter to provide documentation or other 4 information to verify that smoke obscuration was a 5 factor or an important consideration in the size and 6 type of vessels covered by 302. Instead, the 7 submitter's public comments stated that other NFPA 8 Standards use smoke developed index of 450 or less. 9 Among those listed was NFPA 301, which is a Standard 10 for merchant vessels or larger ships where egress 11 could be confused by smoke saturation. 12 It is important to note that marine vessels 13 over the - greater than 300 gross tons were different 14 from, very different from small pleasure craft. NFPA 15 301 was created to address hazards on larger passenger 16 vessels and commercial ships. Larger passenger 17 vessels are vessels with multiple desks, numerous 18 passageways, and carrying passengers who are 19 unfamiliar with the vessel layout. Small pleasure 20 craft, fitted with cabin, typically have a single 21 below deck space that is accessed by a central 22 passageway, with egress forward and aft. Persons are 23 boat owners, and are very familiar with the layout of 24 the vessel. 25 The Committee knows no static - no statistic

89 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 that is available to the public through the United 2 States Coast Guard database, fire losses during the 3 past 20 years when smoke was a contributory factor to 4 increasing the fire hazard on any small vessel covered 5 by NFPA 302. 6 ASTM 84 is a Standard for surface burning 7 materials, and as described in the title and scope, 8 for building materials. 9 The revision that the submitter is presenting 10 in this Certified Motion simply does not apply to 11 vessels that are covered by NFPA 302. 12 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With 13 that, we will open debate on the motion. If you come 14 to the mic, please provide your name, affiliation, 15 whether you are speaking in support of, or against the 16 motion. Microphone number four. 17 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 18 International, for - speaking for NAFRA in favor of 19 the motion. 20 It's very interesting that the Chairman says 21 that ASTM E84 is not applicable, and yet 4161 tells 22 you have to test the materials to ASTM E84. Every 23 material used for thermal and acoustical insulation 24 sold in this country - every material used for thermal 25 and acoustical insulation sold in this country, is

90 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 required to have a flame spread index of 75 or less, 2 and a smoke develop index of 450 or less. And I am 3 absolutely convinced that the materials that are used 4 for 302 are not magically coming from outer space into 5 these vessels. They are - they are materials sold in 6 this country. 7 So it's - second point - we, we are dealing 8 with commercial craft. Yes, they're much smaller 9 than, than ships. They, they are small craft. But 10 when you are in the water, you have no egress 11 capability, which is what happens with all 12 transportation environments, and disorientation as a 13 result of lack of smoke is an important consideration 14 everywhere in transportation environments. Please 15 support the motion, and add this requirement for 16 measuring smoke. Thank you. 17 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Is there any further 18 discussion on Motion 302-1 to Accept Public Comment 19 No. 3? Mr. Chair, do you have any final comments? 20 JOHN MCDEVITT: No, Sir. 21 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before we 22 vote, let me restate the motion. The motion on the 23 floor is to Accept Public Comment No. 3. To vote, 24 touch the 'vote' button, and if you wish to vote in 25 support of the motion, and recommend the text on

91 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 2 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 3 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 4 The voting will close in five seconds. 5 Voting will end in five seconds. 6 The voting is closed. Thank you. 7 The results of the vote are: 235 in support of 8 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 233 9 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 10 Two. The motion has passed. 11 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 12 Certified Amending Motion 302-2. Microphone number 13 four, please. 14 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 15 International, and I move to Accept Public Comment No. 16 4. 17 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Is there, a, a 18 motion - there is a motion on the floor to Accept 19 Public Comment No. 4. Is there a second? 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 21 DAN O'CONNOR: We have a second. Thank you. 22 Please proceed with the discussion. 23 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 24 International, speaking for NAFRA in support of the 25 motion.

92 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 This is very simple, and actually, I think this 2 is essential, because right now the way it says is 3 materials shall be listed and labeled to meet the 4 requirements of E84. E84 does not have requirements. 5 I'm the Task Group Chairman for ASTM E84. ASTM E84 is 6 a test method. It tells you how to test, period. 7 Doesn't tell you what you do when you finish testing. 8 You report the results, that's all it tells you. 9 So with the wording exactly as is now, what you 10 would have is - I can get a (unintelligible) 10,000. 11 I met the requirements, because there are no 12 requirements. Please support the motion. Thank you. 13 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. McDevitt, do you have a - 14 offer the Committee's position? 15 JOHN MCDEVITT: The Committee felt that the 16 revision as presented by the submitter is an editorial 17 change that is unnecessary, in the opinion of the 18 Technical Committee on Motor Craft. 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With 20 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 21 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 22 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 23 Microphone number six, back of the room, please. 24 WILLIAM FISKE: Thank you, Chair - thank you, 25 Chairman. I am William Fiske, and I'm speaking for

93 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 myself, in opposition to the motion. 2 Listed and labeled are both defined terms 3 within NFPA. And the definition of labeled 4 automatically includes listing. So to say 'listed and 5 labelled' is redundant there. 6 DAN O'CONNOR: Microphone number four, please. 7 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 8 International, speaking for NAFRA, and in support. 9 That - this is just editorial, listed and labelled, or 10 labelled or listed. Both terms were there originally. 11 So that doesn't make any change. The real change is 12 the other one. 13 At, at present, this section does not send you 14 to 4.1.6.1. So if it doesn't send you to 4.1.6.1, it 15 doesn't tell you what the requirements are, what 16 criteria you need to meet. So because ASTM E84 does 17 not have criteria, if you leave this here, you have no 18 way of knowing what you need to meet. Thank you. 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. Is there any 20 further discussion on Motion 302-2 to Accept Public 21 Comment No. 4? Mr. Chair, do you have any further 22 comments? 23 JOHN MCDEVITT: No, Sir. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 25 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The motion

94 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 on the floor is to Accept Public Comment No. 4. To 2 vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 3 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 4 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 5 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 6 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 7 The voting will close in five seconds. 8 The voting is closed. Thank you. 9 The results of the vote are: 370 in support of 10 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 120 11 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 12 Two. The motion has passed. 13 Okay. Moving on, we will now proceed with the 14 discussion on Certified Amending Motion 302-3. 15 Microphone number four, please. 16 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 17 International, and I move to Accept an Identifiable 18 Part of Public Comment No. 5. 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. There is a motion on 20 the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 21 Comment No. 5. Is there a second? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 23 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay, we have a second. Please 24 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 25 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH

95 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 International, speaking for NAFRA and in support of 2 the motion. 3 This is the same issue that we discussed in - 4 two motions ago, 302-1. We're dealing with ducts 5 instead of dealing with insulation. And again, 6 because this is a transportation environment, I urge 7 you to support the motion and add smoked developed 8 requirements. Thank you. 9 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. McDevitt, would you like to 10 offer the Committee's position. 11 JOHN MCDEVITT: Our response will be similar. 12 The majority of the vessels covered in 302 are 13 pleasure craft. Pleasure craft are boats that are 14 used for personal family and sportsmen recreation. 15 Generally pleasure craft are understood to be small 16 vessels under 26 feet. Once again, our Committee has 17 no experience with incidents where smoke generation 18 was a complication of an already complicated 19 situation. 20 I, I will add that the Coast Guard has 21 developed some recent standards, which - known as Sub- 22 Chapter M, where - they were detailed developments for 23 - or require, requirements for commercial craft, and 24 these did not have any kind of reference to smoke 25 generation at all. So.

96 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. With that, we will 2 open up the debate on the motion. Name, affiliation, 3 whether you're speaking for or against. Microphone 4 number four, please. 5 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 6 International, speaking for NAFRA, in support of the 7 motion. The, the Coast Guard requirements always use 8 ASTM E84, and use - include smoke. Thank you. 9 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Is there any further 10 discussion on Motion 302-3, to Accept an Identifiable 11 Part of Public Comment No. 5? Mr. Chair, any further 12 comments? 13 JOHN MCDEVITT: Only that the Coast Guard Sub- 14 Chapter M recent release does not reference E84. 15 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay, 16 before we vote, I will restate the motion. That 17 motion on the floor is to Accept an Identifiable Part 18 of Public Comment No. 5. To vote, touch the 'vote' 19 button. If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 20 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 21 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 22 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 23 vote. 24 The voting will close in five seconds. 25 The voting is closed. Thank you.

97 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 And the results of the vote are: 283 in 2 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 3 Screen One; 180 against the motion, and recommend the 4 text on Screen Two. The motion has passed. 5 Okay. Moving on, we will now proceed with the 6 discussion on Certified Amending Motion 302-4. 7 Microphone number four, please. 8 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 9 International, speaking for NAFRA, and I move to 10 Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 5. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. There is a motion on the 12 floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment 13 No. 5. Is there a second? 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. We do have a second. 17 Please proceed with discussion on the motion. 18 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 19 International, speaking for NAFRA, and in support of 20 the motion. This is identical to what you did in 302- 21 2. It's just simply pointing out where the 22 requirements are. Otherwise, there's, there's nothing 23 to meet there. Thank you. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Mr. McDevitt, would you 25 like to offer the Committee's position on this?

98 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JOHN MCDEVITT: Yes, Sir. The revision that is 2 presented by the submitter is an editorial change that 3 is unnecessary, in the opinion of the Technical 4 Committee. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With 6 that, we will open it up for debate. Name, 7 affiliation, whether you are speaking in support of, 8 or against the motion, please. Seeing no one at the 9 mics, I will ask if there is any further discussion on 10 Motion 302-4, to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 11 Comment No. 5. Nothing further? Mr. Chair, do you 12 have any final comments? 13 MR. MCDEVITT: No, Sir. 14 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Before we vote, let 15 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 16 Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 5. 17 And to vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to 18 vote in support of the motion, and recommend the text 19 on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. And if you wish to vote 20 against this motion, recommend the text on Screen Two, 21 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 22 The vote will close in five seconds. 23 The voting is closed. Thank you. 24 The results of the vote are: 347 in support of 25 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 124

99 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 2 Two. The motion has passed. 3 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 4 Certified Amending Motion 302-5. Microphone number 5 four, please. 6 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 7 International, speaking for NAFRA, and I move to 8 Accept Public Comment No. 6. 9 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. There is a motion on 10 the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 6. Is there a 11 second? 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 13 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. We do have a second. 14 And please proceed with the discussion. 15 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 16 International, speaking for NAFRA, in support of the 17 motion. This is identical to what you have done in 18 two cases before. This deals with exposed materials, 19 and finishes within 24 inches of heat generation 20 surfaces. Other than that, it's the same thing, just 21 adding the smoke requirements. Thank you. 22 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. McDevitt, the Committee's 23 position? 24 MR. MCDEVITT: The Committee's response is the 25 same. The Standard is for small craft, and we don't

100 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 feel the application is appropriate. 2 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With that, 3 we'll open up debate on the motion. Again, name, 4 affiliation, and whether you're speaking in support of, 5 or against the motion. Okay. I see no one at the 6 microphone. So is there any - let me ask, is there any 7 further discussion on Motion 302-5, to Accept Public 8 Comment No. 6? Seeing none, we can move to vote, 9 unless, Mr. Chair, any final comment. No? 10 JOHN MCDEVITT: No, thank you. 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Okay. The motion on 12 the floor is to Accept Public Comment No. 6. To vote, 13 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support 14 of the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, 15 touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, 16 and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. 17 Please record your vote. 18 The voting will close in five seconds. 19 The vote is closed. Thank you. 20 The results of the vote are: 320 in support of 21 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 22 141 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 23 Two. The motion has passed. 24 We will now proceed with the discussion on 25 Certified Amending Motion 302-6. Microphone number

101 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 four. 2 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 3 International, speaking for NAFRA, and I move to Accept 4 an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 7. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. There is a motion on 6 the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 7 Comment No. 7. Do I hear a second? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 9 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Thank you. We do have a 10 second. Let's proceed with a discussion on the motion. 11 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 12 International, speaking for NAFRA, in support of the 13 motion. This is a purely editorial issue. I am the 14 Chairman of the Task Group dealing with ASTM E84. The 15 term for ASTM E84 is flame spread index, not flame 16 spread rating. In fact, that is consistent, what was in 17 previous sections of this Standard. Please support 18 that. Thank you. 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. McDevitt? 20 JOHN MCDEVITT: The Committee, at our meeting in 21 April, discussed this change, and at the time, we did 22 not object to the editorial change that is proposed by 23 the submitter in 302-6. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With that, 25 we will open up debate on the motion. Name,

102 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 affiliation, and in support of, or against the motion. 2 Okay. Is there any further discussion on Motion 302-6, 3 to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 7? 4 Mr. McDevitt, anything further? 5 JOHN MCDEVITT: No, thank you. 6 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Thank you, Sir. Before we 7 vote, let me restate the motion. The motion on the 8 floor is to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 9 Comment No. 7. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If 10 you wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend 11 the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 12 vote against the motion, and recommend the text on 13 Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote now. 14 The vote will close in five seconds. 15 The voting is closed. Thank you. 16 The results of the vote are: 446 in support of 17 the motion, recommending the text on Screen One; and 31 18 against the motion, recommending the text on Screen Two. 19 The motion has passed. 20 We'll now proceed with the discussion on 21 Certified Amending Motion 302-7. Microphone number 22 four, please. 23 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 24 International, for NAFRA, and I move to Accept an 25 Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 7.

103 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: There is a motion on the floor to 2 Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 7. Is 3 there a second? 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. We do have a second. 6 Please proceed with the discussion on the motion. 7 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 8 International, for NAFRA, in support of the motion. 9 This is the same that you've already voted on three 10 times. It's just to add the smoke develop index. Thank 11 you. 12 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. Mr. McDevitt, any 13 on Committee's position? 14 JOHN MCDEVITT: Our response is the same - that 15 the 302 Standard covers small craft, and not so much 16 applicable to the smoke conditions. 17 DAN O'CONNOR: Once again, thank you, gentlemen. 18 With that, we - again, we will open debate. Anybody 19 wishes to debate on this, your name, affiliation, 20 whether you're speaking in support, or against the 21 motion? No further - is there no further discussion on 22 Motion 302-7, to Accept -- 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Is there somebody - oh. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, number six.

104 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DAN O'CONNOR: Microphone number six. 2 WILLIAM FISKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm 3 sorry - I don't walk quite fast enough for you. I'm 4 William Fisk. I'm representing myself, but I am a 5 member of the National Electrical Code Committee - 6 again, not speaking for the Electrical Section. But 7 this is -- 8 DAN O'CONNOR: I could - Sir, could you - are you 9 in support of, or against the motion? 10 WILLIAM FISKE: I'm sorry. I am speaking 11 against. 12 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. 13 WILLIAM FISKE: What we're looking at in this 14 section is basically an electrical enclosure. And the 15 smoke developed ratings for indexes, for electrical 16 enclosures are thoroughly irrelevant, although the flame 17 spread rating is very important. Thank you. 18 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. Is there any further 19 discussion on Motion 302-7, to Accept an Identifiable 20 Part of Public Comment No. 7? Microphone four. 21 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 22 International, for NAFRA, and - in support. What we're 23 talking about is that we - we have products in there, 24 inside the vessels, that have to meet flame spread. 25 They also should meet smoke, just like we've talked

105 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 about other things. Please support the motion. Thank 2 you. 3 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. McDevitt, anything further? 4 JOHN MCDEVITT: No, Sir. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. Okay. Before we vote, 6 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 7 to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 7. 8 To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote 9 in support of the motion, and recommend text on Screen 10 One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the 11 motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 12 'No'. Please record your vote now. 13 The vote will close in five seconds. 14 The voting is closed. Thank you. 15 The results of the vote are: 274 in support of 16 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 183 17 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 18 Two. The motion has passed. 19 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 302? 20 Microphone number four? 21 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: No - not on 302. 22 DAN O'CONNOR: Oh, okay. 23 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Sorry. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Don't confuse me. Okay. Seeing 25 none, we will move on to the next document. Thank you,

106 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Mr. McDevitt. 2 JOHN MCDEVITT: Thank you. 3 (applause) 4 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. The next report under 5 consideration is that of the Technical Committee on 6 Handling and Conveying of Dusts, Vapors, and Gasses. 7 Here to present the Committee Report is Technical 8 Committee Chair, Mark Runyon, of Marsh Risk Consulting 9 of Portland, Oregon. 10 The Committee Report that is the First and Second 11 Draft Reports is located on the Document Information 12 Page from NFPA 654, on the NFPA website. All Certified 13 Amending Motions are contained in the NFPA Technical 14 Meeting Agenda, and will be displayed behind me on the 15 screen as they are under debate. Mr. Runyon, will you 16 present the Chair Report? 17 MARK RUNYON: Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen, 18 the Report of the Technical Committee on Handling and 19 Conveying of Dusts, Papers, and Gasses is presented as 20 found in the First Draft Report, and the Second Draft 21 Report for the 2019 annual revision cycle. 22 The Technical Committee has published the First 23 and Second Draft Report consisting of revisions to NFPA 24 654, Standard for the Prevention of Fire and Dust 25 Explosions from the Manufacturing, Processing, and

107 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Handling of Combustible Particulate Solids. The 2 revisions were submitted to letter ballot of the 3 responsible Technical Committee. Their reports and 4 ballot results can be found on the Next Edition tab of 5 the Document Information Page for NFPA 654 at 6 www.NFPA.org/654next. Mr. Chair, I move for the 7 Standards Council issuance, the Committee's Report on 8 NFPA 654. 9 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Runyon. Let's now 10 proceed with the discussion on the Certified Amending 11 Motion on NFPA 654-1, microphone number four, please. 12 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 13 International, speaking for NAFRA, and I move to Accept 14 an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 10, and 15 Accept Public Comment Nos. 11 and 9. 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. There is a motion on 17 the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 18 Comment No. 10, and Accept Public Comment Nos. 11 and 9. 19 Is there a second. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 21 DAN O'CONNOR: I hear a second, and please 22 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 23 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Thank you. Marcelo 24 Hirschler, GBH International, for NAFRA, and in support 25 of the motion. Let - this is completely different from

108 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 what we were talking about before. This is proposed for 2 various reasons. One, for compliance with the Manual of 3 Style. Manual of Style says there should be no 4 requirements in definitions. Consistent with accepted 5 NFPA terminology of what we do for noncombustible 6 material, and consistent with what happens in many, if 7 not most, major NFPA documents, including NFPA 1, 101, 8 5000, 98, 130, and so on, and so on. 9 This also recognizes that in the US - and 10 unfortunately, you don't have the entire definition 11 there, but just - in the US we use materials that pass 12 ASTM E136 as noncombustible materials. The, the text 13 today says that material in the former, which is used 14 (unintelligible) dissipated will not ignite support, 15 combustion, and yet, materials that have passed ASTM 16 E136 can ignite. The criteria is just that the flame 17 should be a short duration. So materials - that is too 18 restrictive, is not in compliance with what we use for 19 noncombustible materials. 20 In fact, the pass/fail criteria of ASTM E136, 21 which are in Items 2 and 3 of the - of my proposed 22 wording, allows burning and flame, and still declares 23 material noncombustible. 24 What the CAM does is move the definition away 25 from Chapter Three, provide a link to Chapter Four, the

109 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 requirements, (unintelligible) options are placed. Note 2 that in 654, in 7.1.4.1, a noncombustible dust is 3 rendered noncombustible by, by dilution with a 4 noncombustible dust. So you have something that's 5 combustible, and with dilution it becomes 6 noncombustible, which means there must be a criterion 7 for deciding when there's not enough noncombustible 8 component for the mixture to be noncombustible. 9 The needs is based on the test method, and the 10 proposed language as is in the Committee does not 11 provide it. The Annex of 654 does provide the language 12 - says, ASTM E136 is the text - the test that you need 13 to do that. So it is inconsistent, because the 14 definition says you shall not have ignition, and yet the 15 Annex associated with that definition says do it in 16 accordance with E136, which allows you to, to have some 17 flaming. 18 So this is inconsistent, and it's inconsistent 19 with the majority of the NFPA documents, such as 1, 101, 20 5000, etc. The rationale used to reject the comments is 21 the criteria proposed apply to building materials. Yes, 22 the Annex uses that definition with the same criteria. 23 So again, it's inconsistent. Please support. Thank 24 you. 25 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. Runyon, would you like to

110 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 offer the Committee's position? 2 MARK RUNYON: Thank you. The Committee rejected 3 this public input during the First Draft, and the public 4 comment during the Second Draft, as they felt the 5 current definition provided sufficient clarity of the 6 intent that would be considered a noncombustible 7 substance. The Committee wants to keep the simplicity 8 of the definition for the user, to help them make the 9 determination of combustible/noncombustible. Adding to 10 - the additional testing to the ASTM Standards was seen 11 as unnecessary. The existing definition does not 12 include any requirements, and accurately conveys the 13 definition that applies to the use of noncombustible 14 materials in the Standard. Existing Annex material 15 further clarifies the intent of this decision. 16 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, gentlemen. With that, 17 we will open up debate on the motion. Again, I ask you 18 for your name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking 19 in support of, or against the motion. Microphone number 20 six, please. 21 JOHN CHOLAN (phonetic): Good morning. My name 22 is John Cholan, and I rise to speak against the motion. 23 I'm not supporting any particular client in my actions 24 today. 25 The Technical Committee has used the term

111 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 noncombustible primarily in relation to the construction 2 materials used for process equipment, including 3 ductwork, bins, bunkers, silos, air material separators, 4 cyclones, those kinds of equipment. These kinds of 5 equipment don't have the same kind of fire 6 characteristics and fire concerns that you have for 7 construction materials for occupied spaces. 8 The Technical Committee defined the term 9 noncombustible in that particular context to help the 10 user make the distinction between materials that were 11 suitable for ductwork, bins, and bunkers, as opposed to 12 those that were unsuitable - those that would lose their 13 physical integrity, or contribute to the fire load. 14 Consequently, the Committee defined the term, put 15 the definition where it belongs, and then addresses a 16 relevant test method as one method that might be used to 17 establish the distinction between combustible and 18 noncombustible, and that was put in the Annex for the 19 definition, as it should be, consistent with the Manual 20 of Style. 21 Consequently, I urge the membership to support 22 the actions of the Technical Committee, and reject this 23 proposal. Thank you. 24 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. Cholan, could you just clarify 25 what is your company affiliation?

112 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JOHN CHOLAN: My company affiliation is J.M. 2 Cholan Consultants. I'm an independent consultant, and 3 I'm not supporting the objectives of any particular 4 client. 5 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. Okay. Microphone 6 number six. 7 TIM MYERS: I'm Tim Myers from Exponent 8 Incorporated. I'm also speaking against the motion. I 9 agree, we - with - Mr. - what, with, with most of what 10 Mr. Cholan stated. I think one thing the, the mover of 11 the motion explained, that confused things, is that in 12 this Standard, as Mr. Cholan referred, we use 13 noncombustible to talk about materials of construction 14 of process equipment. And then we also have an issue of 15 whether the dust is combustible or noncombustible, which 16 we don't use the standards that have been added to the 17 Standard; we use the standards that are shown there - 18 ASTM E1226, and E2019. So you, you shouldn't be 19 confusing using this term of noncombustible with 20 noncombustible dust. Thank you. 21 DAN O'CONNOR: Microphone number four, please. 22 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 23 International, speaking for NAFRA, and in support of the 24 motion. I note that both the opponents said that this 25 doesn't apply to noncombustible dust. I, I'm not sure

113 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 that I agree with that, but that's not the point. They 2 both said that they use the term 'noncombustible 3 material' for materials of construction, which is 4 exactly what ASTM E136 has done, and is used for, and 5 that's what they put in their Annex, as well. The Annex 6 says you shall use - well, no, it doesn't say you shall 7 use. You - materials that pass ASTM E136 are consistent 8 - are considered noncombustible. 9 So the, the way they put in the Annex - sorry, 10 not they - the way the Committee puts in the Annex, how 11 you determine if a material is noncombustible, is 12 inconsistent with the definition, because you pass E136, 13 and you can ignite support combustion burn. So this is 14 - the proposed text that I have, which is from - same 15 in, as I said, in a whole bunch of other NFPA documents, 16 includes this as one option. This is one of the options 17 to declare something noncombustible. The other options, 18 which are used, as both Mr. Cholan and Mr. Myers said, 19 for building materials - the, the other options are test 20 to ASTM E136, with the pass/fail criteria of ASTM E136. 21 Making this change would make this document 22 consistent with most other documents in the NFPA system, 23 and would prevent this inconsistency, this confusion 24 between what's in the body in Sections - in Chapter 25 Three, and what is in the corresponding Annex, which

114 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 don't tally with one another. Thank you. 2 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. We'll move back to 3 microphone number six, please. 4 TIM MYERS: This is Tim Myers from Exponent, 5 speaking against the motion. I think one thing that 6 needs to be clarified - when we're talking about 7 materials of construction and process equipment, it's 8 typically steel. There's not a need to do a test to 9 determine if it's noncombustible. It's obvious. And 10 that's part of the reason why we don't have a specific 11 test required in the definition. Thank you. 12 DAN O'CONNOR: And again, at microphone six. 13 JOHN CHOLAN: Yes, this is John Cholan of JM 14 Cholan Consultants, Incorporated, and I can't agree with 15 my colleague, Tim Myers, more. 16 DAN O'CONNOR: For or against the motion, Mr. 17 Cholan. 18 JOHN CHOLAN: I'm speaking against the motion. 19 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you. 20 JOHN CHOLAN: Also, if you look at the text as 21 submitted, it's unclear as to whether the three items 22 listed under the proposed text for the new section in 23 Chapter Four, are an 'or' or an 'and' - so that 24 consequently, a user could be in a position where he has 25 to comply with all three of those criteria. And here,

115 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 we're talking about a piece of 12-gauge steel. And why 2 add the cost to installations for getting tested on 3 materials of construction that are well known not to 4 burn, which is exactly what Mr. Myers brought up. 5 Furthermore, because NFPA 654 is used in a wide 6 array of countries, many of which are not the United 7 States, many times you've got to use a different test 8 method. Consequently, the Technical Committee 9 referenced the ASTM Standard in the Annex, because the 10 Annex is advisory, non-mandatory text. By putting the 11 reference to ASTM in the body of the Standard, it 12 becomes mandatory, and therefore deprives the owner the 13 - of the option of utilizing another test method that is 14 recognized in the jurisdiction where the facility is 15 actually being constructed. 16 So I urge the membership to vote against this 17 motion. Thank you. 18 DAN O'CONNOR: Microphone number four, please. 19 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 20 International, for NAFRA, and in support of the motion. 21 Let me just - because it's not on the screen, I'm - I 22 want to read what it says in the proposed text. 'A 23 material that complies with any of the following shall 24 be considered noncombustible.' And the first one of 25 those is the same wording that is there today - 'any of

116 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the following' - which means that you can do one, two, 2 or three; one, two, or three. You clearly, when it says 3 'any of the following' you don't have to do all three. 4 And the first one, which is the most restrictive - which 5 is fine; that is one of the options. Thank you. 6 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Sir. Is there any 7 further discussion on Motion 654-1, to Accept an 8 Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 10, and Accept 9 Public Comment Nos. 11 and 9. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 11 DAN O'CONNOR: Mr. Chair, do you have any further 12 -- 13 MARK RUNYON: No. We - the Committee has been 14 well represented, and well spoken. Thank you. 15 DAN O'CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Okay. 16 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The motion 17 on the floor is to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 18 Comment No. 10, and Accept Public Comment Nos. 11 and 9. 19 To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote 20 in support of the motion, and recommend the text on 21 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 22 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen No. Two, 23 touch 'No'. Please record your vote now. 24 The voting will close in five seconds. 25 The voting is closed. Thank you.

117 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The results of the vote are: 105 in support of 2 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 356 3 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 4 Two. The motion has failed. 5 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 654? 6 Seeing none, we will move on to the next document, and I 7 thank you, Mr. Runyon. 8 (applause) 9 DAN O'CONNOR: Okay. I would like to make a, an 10 announcement. We will only be taking 15 minute breaks 11 throughout the session today. We will not be breaking 12 for lunch. We encourage you to leave to get snacks or 13 lunch at our convenience. There is a food court that is 14 open at the bottom of the escalators, and a food cart 15 immediately outside this ballroom. 16 Before we could - begin debate on the next 17 Standard, though, I would like to introduce Kenneth 18 Bush, member of the Standards Council, who will be the 19 Presiding Officer for motions before the membership on 20 the next five Standards. 21 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Dan. It's my privilege 22 to announce that the next order of business will be a 10 23 minute break. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Yeah. 25 KENNETH BUSH: So please return in 10 minutes.

118 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (applause) 2 (MUSIC) 3 (END OF PART ONE) 4 5 6 AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION OF 7 8 2019 NFPA TECHNICAL MEETING 9 10 THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2019 11 12 PART 2 13 14 15 (MUSIC) 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ladies and gentlemen, 17 please take your seats. Please take your seats. This 18 session is about to resume. 19 (background voices) 20 KENNETH BUSH: Ladies and gentlemen, the next 21 report under consideration is that of the Technical 22 Committee on Fixed Guideway Transit and Passenger Rail 23 Systems. Here to present the Committee Report is 24 Technical Committee Chair Jarrod Alston of Arup, 25 Cambridge, Massachusetts. The Committee Report, that

119 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 is the First and Second Draft Reports, is located on 2 the Document Information Page for NFPA 130 on the NFPA 3 website. All Certified Amending Motions are contained 4 in the NFPA Technical Meeting (Tech Session) Agenda, 5 and will be displayed behind me on the screen as they 6 are under debate. Mr. Alston, will you present the 7 Chair Report. 8 JARROD ALSTON: Mr. Chair, ladies and 9 gentlemen, the Report of the Technical Committee on 10 Fixed Guideway Transit and Passenger Rail Systems is 11 presented as found in the First Draft Report, and 12 Second Draft Report for the 2019 annual revision 13 cycle. The Technical Committee has published a First 14 and Second Draft Report consisting of revisions to 15 NFPA 130, Standard for Fixed Guideway Transit and 16 Passenger Rail Systems. The revisions were submitted 17 to letter ballot of the responsible Technical 18 Committee. The reports and ballot results can be 19 found on the Next Edition tab of the Document 20 Information Page for NFPA 130 at www.nfpa.org/130next. 21 Mr. Chair, I move for Standards Council issuance the 22 Committee's Report on NFPA 130. 23 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Alston. Let's 24 now with the discussion of the Certifying Amending 25 Motions on NFPA 130. Microphone four, please.

120 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: I - Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 2 International, for the Vinyl Institute, and I move to 3 Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 23. 4 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Sir. As a reminder, 5 Motion 130-1 has been changed to Reject an 6 Identifiable Part of Second Revision 23. The text 7 shown on the screens behind me reflects the proposed 8 action for the Membership's consideration. 9 There is a motion on the floor to Reject an 10 Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 23. Is there 11 a second? 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 13 KENNETH BUSH: We do have a second. Please 14 proceed with the discussion on the motion. Microphone 15 four. 16 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 17 International, for the Vinyl Institute, and in support 18 of the motion. This is a fairly simple issue, but 19 just changing a definition. 20 The concept is that something critical, such in 21 this case a critical velocity, is an absolute term, 22 not a relative term. The existing definition, as 23 accepted by the Committee, says that a critical 24 velocity, one that controls back-layering, such a 25 tenable environment is maintained. That's not

121 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 critical, because it depends on concept obtainable, on 2 the environment, on the point of safety. 3 Critical velocity has to be a critical thing - 4 one that prevents back-layering. It's not necessary 5 to reach your critical velocity of a safe passage. 6 That's just the ultimate goal. It's an 7 (unintelligible). The same when we're talking about 8 critical flux for ignition. It's not the flux at 9 which it will ignite; it's the minimum flux that will, 10 which will ignite. Critical temperature is not the 11 critical, any temperature will ignite - critical, 12 minimum temperature will ignite. So critical is an 13 absolute term. Thank you. 14 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Mr. Alston, would 15 you like to offer the Committee's position. 16 JARROD ALSTON: Thank you. It was the 17 Committee's position that the qualifier on the 18 definition of 'critical velocity' was required to 19 provide clarification on its intent, and application 20 to real tunnels. This came in response largely to 21 changes in the formulation of the critical velocity 22 expression adopted in Annex D of the 2017 Edition of 23 NFPA 502. That reformulation was the result of work 24 of Lee (phonetic) and Engison (phonetic) of the 25 Research Institutes of Sweden. The practical outcome

122 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 of their work was to effectively change the definition 2 of critical velocity, to one of an absolute 3 theoretical, or mathematical zero back-layering 4 distance, from one of finite back-layering, based on 5 the outcomes of the Memorial Tunnel Fire Ventilation 6 Test Program. 7 The results of that testing had served for 8 decades as the basis for assessment, and then 9 establish an acceptable degree of back-layering. 10 According from a report on the, on the tests, 11 generally when back-layering was prevented, smoke was 12 contained within 40 feet upgrade of the fire. 13 Therefore, the objective of the modification to 14 the definition in NFPA 130 was to realign with, with 15 this previously accepted practical definition. 16 It is notable that NFPA 502 similarly clarifies 17 the definition, albeit it in Annex material, as 18 achieving the limitation of back-layering such that it 19 does not extend beyond the untenable zone, should be 20 accepted as effectively preventing back-layering. 21 While it is acknowledged that the Committee action 22 creates a minor departure in definition of the similar 23 term in NFPA 102, the intent is the same. 24 Therefore, the Committee viewed it as wholly 25 appropriate to elaborate on, and clarify the intent

123 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 for use in tunnel ventilation of real tunnels. 2 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, gentlemen. With 3 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 4 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you're 5 speaking in support or against the motion. Microphone 6 four, please. 7 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 8 International, for the Vinyl Institute, in support of 9 the motion. I think Jarrod Alston explained that what 10 you have in 502 talks about an effective critical 11 velocity. And that's fine; that's what we're talking 12 about. The effective critical velocity is one that 13 will control back-layering. But if you want to 14 prevent back-layering, the absolute term, that is what 15 is critical. Thank you. 16 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further 17 discussion on Motion 130-1, to Reject an Identifiable 18 Part of Section Revision No. 23? Seeing none, we will 19 move on to a vote. Mr. Chair, do you have any final 20 comments? 21 JARROD ALSTON: No further comments. Thank 22 you. 23 KENNETH BUSH: Seeing no further comments, we 24 will move to a vote. Before we vote, let me restate 25 the motion. The motion on the floor is to Reject an

124 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 23. To vote, 2 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 3 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 4 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 5 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 6 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 8 KENNETH BUSH: The voting will close in five 9 seconds. 10 The voting is closed. 11 The results of the vote are: Two hundred and - 12 I'm sorry, 111 in favor of the motion; 208 against the 13 motion, and the recommended text on Screen Two. The 14 motion has failed. 15 Let's now proceed with the discussion on the 16 Certified Amending Motion 130-2. Microphone four, 17 please. 18 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 19 International, speaking for the Vinyl Institute, and 20 I, I move to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 21 Revision No. 19. 22 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. There is a motion on 23 the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 24 Revision No. 19. Is there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

125 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 KENNETH BUSH: There is a second. We do have a 2 second. Please proceed with a discussion on the 3 motion. Microphone four, please. 4 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 5 International, for the Vinyl Institute, and in 6 support of the motion. 7 It's unfortunate that the, at least the 8 beginning of the, of the table is not shown. What, 9 what we're talking about is that there is a table in 10 the Annex that shows what a number of tests that were 11 conducted with various rail cars. The first column of 12 the table shows what the tests were, with the 13 reference and all that. The next table shows the peak 14 heat release. The next - sorry, not the - next column 15 shows the peak heat release rate, and the third one 16 shows the time for the peak heat release rate. 17 Then there's a fourth column, that I hope you 18 can look at your Agendas, because there are the 19 details in there. The - that describes, to some 20 extent, what the materials are. But this can be very 21 misleading because it's not detailed enough. 22 The table itself is very valuable, and needs to 23 remain, and the references to each test will give all 24 the details you need about materials or products used, 25 as opposed to the scanty detail shown.

126 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 For example, if one of the columns says, 2 'Legacy Interior Materials' - I'm not sure what the 3 hell that means. One of -- 4 (laughter) 5 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: -- it could be wood, 6 leather, horsehair - I don't know what a legacy 7 material is. And some legacy materials behave better 8 than others. 9 Another table - another column says, '90% of 10 interior materials were considered to be combustible' 11 - okay, probably most of them were combustible. But 12 what does that tell you about what the materials were? 13 In other cases it said, 'Seek materials of latest 14 design at the time of test.' What does that tell you? 15 That is confusing, potentially misleading. 16 I'm not sure that does help the user at all. 17 In the contrary, it confuses. The key information is 18 what's found in columns one, two, and three - the 19 reference; the type of train; peak heat release; the 20 time to peak heat release rate. Anything else, much 21 more information is needed, if you really want details 22 and want to reproduce to some extent, the test method. 23 That will be found in the reference, and not in some 24 sketchy statements in a misleading column. 25 So again, what this does, and again, I, I urge

127 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 you to look at the Agenda, because this won't show 2 you. The table is an excellent table, and needs to 3 remain. And the table is a summary of measured and 4 estimated heat release rates, and associated context. 5 And the, the context is what's in the first column - 6 heat release rate, and time to peak heat release rate 7 is in the second and third column. The fourth, the 8 fourth column is just some - some sketchy information 9 that you really need to look at in the actual text. 10 Thank you. 11 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Mr. Alston, would 12 you like to offer the Committee's position? 13 JARROD ALSTON: Sure. The incorporation of 14 Table B924 in NFPA 130 was part of the much larger and 15 more extensive effort by the Committee to reorganize 16 the rather sprawling of the Annex material in 130. 17 That table in particular builds upon 18 information that had previously been touched on in 19 general terms within the prior Annex H, specifically 20 around, quote, 'Modern trains that are fire hardened 21 have not been readily tested. Research has been on 22 older model trains, where the degree of fire hardening 23 has not been quantified.' 24 It was the view of the Committee that it was 25 appropriate, and a service to the industry to provide

128 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 additional information against each test within the 2 fourth column, rather than discussing in general 3 terms, as had been previously done in Annex H, in 4 order to provide appropriate context to the values 5 documented in the second and third columns of the 6 table. 7 The reason behind the rather generic language 8 utilized in, in column four is actually in response to 9 Mr. Hirschler's comments at our Second Draft meeting, 10 where he had raised concerns about commercial or 11 trademarked material names utilized within, within the 12 table. So that naming, and that nomenclature had been 13 stripped out, in favor of the more generic, legacy, or 14 modern material designation. 15 It's the view of the Committee that that 16 information is essential to provide the desired 17 context to the experimental results, in order to avoid 18 adoption of inappropriate fire sizes for design 19 purposes based solely on conservative, and ill 20 informed selection of numerical values. 21 While it's acknowledged that the, the 22 information is, is limited, it does provide a jumping 23 off point for additional research. 24 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, gentlemen. With 25 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please

129 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 2 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 3 Microphone four, please. 4 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 5 International, for the Vinyl Institute, in support of 6 the motion. I'm going to read a couple of things in 7 this. German IC train with steel body, with legacy 8 interior materials. German ICE train with modern 9 materials at the time of test. Seat materials of 10 latest design at time of test. Other interior 11 materials of former design. Train approximately 30 12 years old, with 90% interior materials estimated re- 13 combustible. Train dating to 1970s, with original 14 combustible interior lining, and an additional fire 15 load. Refurbished X1 train. And so on, and so forth. 16 I mean, I - you - again, if you, if you look at the 17 Agenda, you'll, you'll see the details. That 18 information doesn't help the user, and it potentially 19 confuses, because it will give you inadequate 20 information. 21 I agree that what was - the first time this 22 was, was put forward in front of the Committee - I'm 23 not a member of the Committee, but I, I'm a regular 24 attendee. I've been attending those meetings for 25 probably 25 years or so. The - what was put first in

130 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 front of the Committee was even worse, because some of 2 the materials were identified, without identifying in 3 detail what the material was. This is very vague, and 4 it really just serves to confuse, confuse. 5 There is no debate that Annex B is fabulous. 6 I'm 100% in favor of Annex B. There's no debate that 7 Table B924 is a very important table. I'm fully in 8 favor of that table remaining. I'm strongly opposed 9 to this information about materials, which is vague 10 and misleading. Thank you. 11 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further 12 discussion on Motion 130-2 to Reject an Identifiable 13 Part of Second Revision No. 19? Mr. Chair, any 14 (unintelligible)? 15 JARROD ALSTON: I just wanted to raise one 16 other point - that there is additional information 17 within the fourth column, particularly around the 18 ignition source, and ventilation conditions, if that 19 was reported on in the testing - both of which are 20 important to understand the outcomes of those tests. 21 KENNETH BUSH: Seeing no further discussion, we 22 will move to a vote. Before we vote, let me restate 23 the motion. The motion on the floor is to Reject an 24 Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 19. To vote, 25 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in

131 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 2 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 3 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 4 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 5 The voting will close in five seconds. 6 The voting is closed. The results of the vote 7 are: 129 in support of the motion; 228 against the 8 motion. The motion has failed. 9 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 130? 10 Seeing none, we will move on to the next document. 11 Thank you, Mr. Alston. 12 JARROD ALSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 13 (applause) 14 KENNETH BUSH: The next report under 15 consideration is that of the Technical Committee on 16 Road Tunnel and Highway Fire Protection. Here to 17 present the Committee Report is Technical Committee 18 Chair, Antonio Marino, of the Port Authority of New 19 York and New Jersey, New York, New York. 20 The Committee Report, that is the First and 21 Second Draft Reports, is located on the Document 22 Information Page for NFPA 502 on the NFPA website. 23 All Certified Amending Motions are contained in the 24 NFPA Technical Committee - Technical Meeting (Tech 25 Session) Agenda, and will be displayed behind me on

132 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the screen as they are under debate. 2 Mr. Marino, will you present the Chair Report. 3 ANTONINO MARINO: Mr. Chair, ladies and 4 gentlemen - the Report of the Technical Committee on 5 Road Tunnel and Highway Fire Protection is presented 6 as found in the First Draft Report, and Second Draft 7 Report for the 2019 annual revision cycle. 8 The Technical Committee has published the First 9 and Second Draft Report consisting of revisions to 10 NFPA 502, Standard for Road Tunnels, Bridges, and 11 Other Limited Access Highways. The revisions were 12 submitted to letter ballot of the responsible 13 Technical Committee. The reports and ballot results 14 can be found on the Next Edition of the Document 15 Information Page for NFPA 502, at 16 www.nfpa.org/502next. 17 Mr. Chair, I move for Standard Council 18 issuance, the Committee's Report on NFPA 502. - 19 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Marino. Let's 20 now proceed with the discussion on Certified Amending 21 Motion 502-1. Microphone four, please. 22 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 23 International, for the Vinyl Institute. And I move to 24 Accept Public Comment No. 1. 25 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. There is a motion on

133 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 1. Is there a 2 second? 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 4 KENNETH BUSH: Yes, we do have a second. 5 Please proceed with the discussion on the motion. 6 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 7 International, for the Vinyl Institute, and in support 8 of the motion. 9 Again, it's unfortunate not the entire thing is 10 on there. But let me clarify. You - if you look at 11 your Agenda, you will notice what this says is a 12 material is noncombustible if it complies with any of 13 the three things that we discussed in, in other 14 committees, which is if, if, if it doesn't burn, if it 15 meets E136, if it meets E2650 with the criteria of, of 16 E136. And the Committee added this one, which is 17 from, from Europe. 18 And the reason that I'm opposed to this is 19 because the ISO 1192 standard does not have 20 thermocouples by the material itself, because it has 21 no thermocouples by the material itself, can't measure 22 that increase in temperature. Consequently, materials 23 that pass the requirements in here are a - will fail 24 the material - the requirements that we use in the 25 United States for E136. So what this will do is

134 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 allow, as noncombustible, a number of additional 2 materials than the ones we, we normally accept in the 3 United States. 4 I happened to be the Task Group Chairman in 5 ASTM for the ASTM E136 Test Method. We took the 6 apparatus of ISO 1182, and added the thermocouples in 7 here. And that's how we developed our, our test 8 method here. Adding the thermocouples means that you 9 can, you can determine how the material itself 10 behaves, and that will be a pass/fail criterion. And 11 the - that is a much more severe pass/fail criterion 12 than the pass/fail criterion in the European Union, 13 the EN-13501. 14 So I urge you to not approve this, and allow 15 noncombustible materials to be consistent with what is 16 in all of the - our other NFPA Codes and Standards. 17 Thank you. 18 KENNETH BUSH: Mr. Marino, would you like to 19 offer the Committee's position? 20 ANTONINO MARINO: Yes. The Committee reviewed 21 and evaluated the amended motion. The position of the 22 Committee is that the amended motion does not provide 23 adequate substantiation, or compelling evidence of the 24 differences of the two testing criteria methods. 25 The statement of problem in the public comment

135 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 clearly identified the thermocouples, but no 2 information was provided in terms of case studies, or 3 documented reports, indicating the differences of the 4 results of those tests, indicating that one was sub- 5 par to the other, or the percentage of the results, 6 and how they're impacted. 7 Furthermore, the purpose of Item No. 4, which 8 provided the additional testing method which is used 9 in Europe, was brought in. It is because the NFPA 502 10 has been adopted by many countries outside of the 11 United States. In particular, NFPA 502, 42% of the 12 voting Committee members within the Committee are 13 outside of the United States. 14 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, gentlemen. With 15 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 16 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 17 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 18 Microphone four, please. 19 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 20 International, for the Vinyl Institute, and in support 21 of the motion. 22 I can't provide actual numbers because as you 23 well know, all test results are shown, and are 24 proprietary test. Labs will not provide that 25 information. But as, again as I said, I am the Task

136 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Group Chairman for the ASTM E136 and ASTM E2652. 2 What we did in ASTM was write to ISO, request 3 permission to copyright their equipment, the ISO 1192, 4 make it into ISO - ASTM E2652, and add the 5 thermocouples, because that was the, the criterion 6 that we all understood. It was completely understood 7 by everyone in the ASTM Fire Standards Committee that 8 without those, the tests, the, the results are 9 different, and materials that pass this criterion here 10 on the screen will not pass the criteria of E136. 11 There is no visa-versa. Everything that passes, 12 passes this will - sorry - everything that, that 13 passes E136 will pass these criteria, but a lot of 14 materials that pass this will not pass the E136 15 criteria. 16 What, what - this is particularly important 17 when we're dealing with some materials, such as some 18 insulations, depending on the amount of binder in the 19 insulation, it can become noncombustible to ISO 1182, 20 and yet combustible to ASTM E136. Thank you. 21 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further 22 discussion on Motion 502-1 to Accept Public Comment 23 No. 1? Mr. Chair, any final comments on behalf of the 24 Committee? 25 ANTONINO MARINO: No, Sir.

137 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 KENNETH BUSH: Seeing none, we will move to a 2 vote. Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The 3 motion on the floor is to Accept Public Comment No. 1. 4 To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote 5 in support of the motion, and recommend the text on 6 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 7 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 8 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 9 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 10 The voting is closed. 11 The results of the vote are: 152 in support of 12 the motion; 199 against the motion. The motion has 13 failed. 14 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 15 Certified Amending Motion 502-2. Microphone four, 16 please. 17 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler - sorry. 18 Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International, speaking for 19 Vinyl Institute, and move to Reject an Identifiable 20 Part of Second Revision No. 6. 21 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. There is a motion on 22 the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 23 Revision No. 6. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 25 KENNETH BUSH: We do have a second. Please

138 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 proceed with a discussion on the motion. Microphone 2 four, please. 3 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 4 International, for the Vinyl Institute, and in support 5 of the motion. 6 This must - is very simple. It - the - 7 eliminates ambiguity. What this has is adding the 8 term, 'or other approved, recognized standards'. 9 Approved by whom? Approved typically here in the 10 United States, means approved by the building 11 official, or the authority having jurisdiction. How 12 does the building official, or authority having 13 jurisdiction know whether the other test that someone 14 conjured is equivalent to UL 2196? UL 2196 has been, 15 for many years, the appropriate tests use for, for 16 that application. It's - it remains the appropriate 17 test. There is no other standard. No one has been 18 able to standardize anything different. And the - 19 adding other approved, recognized standard is - opens 20 the, the floor to something that someone may put in 21 without understanding exactly what it is that is being 22 tested. We, we have no guarantee of equivalence. 23 Thank you. 24 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Mr. Marino, would 25 you like to offer the Committee's position?

139 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ANTONINO MARINO: Yes. NFPA 502, it's a 2 Standard, Road Tunnels, Bridges, and Other Limited 3 Access Highways, which has been adopted globally by 4 many countries outside of the United States, as 5 indicated previously on the previous amending motion. 6 Twelve out of the 29 voting members within the 7 Committee are outside of the United States. This 8 provides a, a method for which other municipalities, 9 countries are able to adopt a testing method that's 10 acceptable within, and recognized within their 11 municipality. 12 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. With that, we will 13 open up debate on the motion. Please provide you 14 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 15 support of, or against the motion. Microphone six. 16 JAMES CONRAD: Yes. James Conrad, with Marmon 17 I & T, and I speak against the motion on the floor. I 18 am a voting member, a principal member of 502, and I 19 was actually the submitter of this wording. 20 The reason we added that is, like the Chair 21 said, is it is an international standard. UL 2196, 22 although it is a, a very good standard, it still has 23 its shortcomings; and additionally, it's not accepted 24 around the world. And a lot of different test 25 facilities do not do that test. They have their own

140 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 versions. 2 And we additionally added - really, what we're 3 looking for in this Standard, and additional wording 4 in the Annex, is to provide guidance for the users at 5 AHJs what to look for, such as - you know, how to test 6 it vertically, horizontally, used in a totally 7 enclosed furnace; and, and also a list of all the 8 components. 9 Circuit integrity is very important. It can be 10 achieved through different labs all over the world. 11 I've been doing this testing for over 25 years. And 12 yes, UL is, is one of the higher standards. We still 13 need to allow other approved methods meeting the 14 guidelines in 502, in the additional suggestions in 15 the Annexes. Thank you. And I support you - I would 16 ask you to reject this motion. 17 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Microphone four. 18 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 19 International, for the Vinyl Institute, and in support 20 of the motion. 21 You just heard Jim Conrad say other methods are 22 not quite as, as robust, where he - sorry, he didn't 23 use the 'robust' - he said UL 2196, the best method. 24 And he said there is some guidance in the Annex as to 25 how you can develop other standards.

141 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The - NFPA 502 does have other standards 2 referenced - international standards. For example, 3 there's a standard for the fire resistance inside the, 4 the tunnel, that's a Dutch standard, that's perfectly 5 fine. We - you just approved adding ISO 1182, which 6 is a, an ISO standard primarily used in Europe and in 7 IMO. 8 So if another standard exists, wherever it, it 9 exists, bring it in. But this doesn't bring another 10 standard. It just says 'other approved' - whatever 11 that means. And as you just heard, it is probably not 12 as good as UL 2196, as explained by the supporter. 13 Please, delete this vague language which will produce 14 nothing more than reduced safety. Thank you. 15 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further 16 discussion on Motion 502-2, to Reject an Identifiable 17 Part of Second Revision Number Six? Microphone six, 18 please. 19 DAVE SHAPIRO: Dave Shapiro, representing 20 myself, speaking in favor of the motion. My concern 21 is this - when, when you have an AHJ and somebody 22 comes to him and says, 'I have an equivalent safe 23 method,' the AHJ generally has a mechanism for 24 accepting it. When you have something in the Standard 25 that says, 'other approved methods' - that's - can

142 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 look like an invitation for people to go to the AHJ 2 and say 'Look, I have, I have other good things. 3 Listen to me.' The, the - this is obviously 4 acceptable that, that, that people should come up with 5 a bunch of other possibilities. I don't know if this 6 will happen, but I would think that there is an 7 existing mechanism already that makes this 8 unnecessary. That's all I have to say. Thank you. 9 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further 10 discussion on Motion 502-2 to Reject an Identifiable 11 part of Second Revision No. 6? Mr. Chair, any final 12 comments from the Committee? 13 ANTONINO MARINO: No, Sir. 14 KENNETH BUSH: Seeing no further comments, we 15 will move to a vote. Before we vote, let me restate 16 the motion. The motion on the floor is to Reject an 17 Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 6. To vote, 18 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 19 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 20 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 21 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 22 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 23 The voting will close in five seconds. 24 The voting is closed. Thank you. 25 The results of the vote are: 163 in favor of

143 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the motion; 219 opposed to the motion. The motion has 2 failed. 3 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 502? 4 Seeing none, we will move on to the next document. 5 Thank you, Mr. Marino. 6 (applause) 7 KENNETH BUSH: The next Committee, or next 8 report under consideration is that of the Technical 9 Committee on Fire Hose. Here to present the Committee 10 Report is Technical Committee Chair, Andrew Ellison of 11 EFI Global, Incorporated, South Hamilton, 12 Massachusetts. 13 The Committee Report, that is the First and 14 Second Draft Reports, is located on the Document 15 Information Page for NFPA 1961 on the NFPA website. 16 All Certified Amending Motions are contained in the 17 NFPA Technical Meeting (Tech Session) Agenda, and will 18 be displayed behind me on the screen as they are under 19 debate. Mr. Ellison, will you present the Chair 20 Report. 21 ANDREW ELLISON: Mr. Chair, ladies and 22 gentlemen, the Report of the Technical Committee on 23 Fire Hose is presented as found in the First Draft 24 Report, and the Second Draft Report for the 2019 25 annual revision cycle.

144 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The Technical Committee has published the First 2 and Second Draft Report consisting of revisions to 3 NFPA 1961, Standard on Fire Hose. The revisions were 4 submitted to letter ballot of responsible Technical 5 Committee. The reports and the ballot results can be 6 found in the Next Edition tab of the Document 7 Information Page of 1961. 8 Mr. Chair, I move for the Standards Council 9 issuance adoption Committee's Report from NFPA 1961. 10 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Ellison. Let's 11 now proceed with discussion on Certifying Amending 12 Motion 1961-1. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 14 KENNETH BUSH: Okay. Okay. NFPA 1961 appeared 15 on our Agenda. However, no one has signed in to make 16 a Certified Amending Motion on this standard. 17 Therefore, in accordance with the NFPA Rules, 18 Regulations, Regulations at 4 - 4.5.3.7, and the 19 Convention Rules at 2.7, this standard will not be 20 considered this meeting - excuse me, and - and instead 21 becomes a Consent Standard that will be forwarded 22 directly to the Standards Council for issuance on 23 other action - or other action. 24 We would like to thank the Committee for their 25 work on the Standard. We will now, now move on to the

145 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 next Standard. 2 ANDREW ALLISON: Thank you. 3 (applause) 4 KENNETH BUSH: The next report under 5 consideration is that of the Technical Committee on 6 Structural and Proximity Fire Fighting Protective 7 Clothing and Equipment. Here to present the Committee 8 Report is Committee Chair, Tom - I'm sorry - Tim 9 Tomlinson of Addison Fire Department, Dallas, Texas. 10 The Committee Report, that is the First and the 11 Second Draft Reports, is located on the Document 12 Information Page for NFPA 1851 on the NFPA website. 13 All Certified Amending Motions are contained in the 14 NFPA Technical Meeting Agenda, and will be displayed 15 behind me on the screen as they are under debate. 16 Mr. Tomlinson, will you present the Chair 17 Report. 18 TIM TOMLINSON: Mr. Chairman, ladies and 19 gentlemen, the Report of the Technical Committee on 20 Structural and Proximity Fire Fighting Protective 21 Clothing and Equipment is presented as found in the 22 First Draft Report, and Second Draft Report for the 23 2019 annual revision cycle. 24 The Technical Committee has published a First 25 Draft, and Second Draft Report consisting of revisions

146 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 to NFPA 1851, Standard on Selection, Care, 2 Maintenance, of Proximity - of Protective Ensembles 3 for Structural Firefighting and Proximity 4 Firefighting. The revisions were submitted to letter 5 ballot of the responsible Technical Committee. The 6 reports and ballot results can be found on the Next 7 Edition tab of the Document Information Page for NFPA 8 1851 at www.nfpa.org/1851next. 9 Mr. Chair, I move for Standards Council 10 issuance of the Committee's Report on NFPA 1851. 11 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Tomlinson. Let's 12 now proceed with the discussion on the Certified 13 Amending Motion on NFPA 1851-1. Microphone four, 14 please. 15 DAVE BURNS (phonetic): Dave Burns, 16 (unintelligible) Association of Professional 17 Firefighters. I speak for the motion to reject Second 18 Revision No. 37. 19 One of the largest emerging concerns for the 20 Fire Service -- 21 KENNETH BUSH: Sir, we need to - we need to 22 have a motion on the floor. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 24 KENNETH BUSH: I'll, I'll, I'll take that as a 25 motion and a second on the floor.

147 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (laughter) 2 KENNETH BUSH: Now we can proceed with 3 discussion. Thank you. 4 DAVE BURNS: Thank you. One of the largest 5 emerging concerns for the Fire Service is the 6 increased rate of cancer among firefighters. These 7 rates are at alarming levels, and many departments are 8 feeling the premature and rapidly escalating loss of 9 its members due to cancer related deaths. 10 Unfortunately, the personal protective 11 equipment that we depend on to protect us from flame, 12 heat, and physical hazards does an adequate, but 13 imperfect job of protecting us from the frequent 14 exposure of soot, and fire gasses, which include known 15 and suspected carcinogens. 16 Advances are being made through the work of 17 NFPA committees to, to make needed improvements in 18 personal protection. However, protective clothing and 19 equipment, once contaminated, create the threat of 20 continued exposure until properly cleaned. Yet, many 21 research studies have consistently shown that cleaning 22 processes are only partially effective. In some 23 cases, conventional cleaning may remove only 10 to 20% 24 of certain dangerous contaminants, and average 25 cleaning efficiencies across the range of contaminants

148 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 are reported around 50%. 2 In the most recent revision of NFPA 1851, 3 extensive work undertaken by the Fire Protection 4 Research Foundation was used to provide the basis for 5 developing cleaning verification requirements to show 6 exactly how effective cleaning of gear can be. 7 Specific requirements were developed that will be 8 applied to both manufacturers and companies that 9 routinely clean firefighting - firefighter clothing. 10 The requirements include procedures intended to 11 standardize how claims of cleaning effectiveness are 12 made, and include modest criteria to incentivize the 13 industry for creating improved cleaning - methods of 14 cleaning. 15 As part of the 1851 revision, a caveat was 16 inserted to extend the mandatory compliance of these 17 requirements to two years, rather than the one year 18 period associated with all other parts of the 19 standard. This means the cleaning verification will 20 not be mandated until 2021. One year is an 21 appropriate and reasonable period of time for those 22 organizations providing gear cleaning services to be 23 held accountable for the effectiveness of their 24 cleaning process. 25 Accepting this NITMAM means applying the same

149 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 grace period that is applied in other standards for 2 new requirements involving personal protective 3 equipment. There are laboratories that are ready to 4 provide the necessary test services in order to carry 5 out the verification of cleaning. Delaying the 6 implementation of this requirement for an additional 7 year would only - would, would cause further harm to 8 the Fire Service. 9 This NITMAM therefore corrects a concession 10 that needlessly delays specific benefits that should 11 be provided to firefighters by the promotion of a 12 process for better cleaned gear, and reducing yet 13 another avenue of contamination exposure. 14 It is essential that this body vote in favor of 15 this NITMAM to address the significant aspect of 16 contamination control affecting firefighter health and 17 safety. Thank you. 18 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Mr. Tomlinson, would 19 you like to offer the Committee's position. 20 TIM TOMLINSON: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. 21 Chairman, the position of the Committee is to oppose 22 the motion, and uphold the Second Draft final ballot 23 results, which provided consensus amongst the 24 Committee to allow the 21 - 24 month period for 25 organizations to verify to the new criteria.

150 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The agreement of the Committee was to allow 2 this concession for the reasons of allowing the labs 3 enough time to prepare for verification of these new 4 criteria, and additionally, allow the industry ample 5 time to become ready, and educated to verify to these 6 new requirements, as well. 7 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, gentlemen. With 8 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 9 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 10 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 11 Microphone six, please. 12 ANDY OLIVER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My 13 name's Andy Oliver, with Verified Independent Service 14 Providers Association. I'm speaking against the 15 motion. 16 We are for the new cleaning validation for 17 heavy metals and biological contaminants, but we are 18 against accelerating the phase-in period to 12 months, 19 versus the stated 24 months. We believe that's going 20 to rush the labs too much. They're still doing 21 testing. They're still trying to do run-throughs, so 22 it's not ready. So we think if, if we rush this, it's 23 going to be negative for the Fire Service. So the 24 original purpose of the 24 month period was to enable 25 the industry to digest the information, and develop a

151 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 commercially viable process. Again, this is very 2 complex. 3 So again, we think if it's a 12 month period, 4 it's going to be - we're going to have negative 5 outcomes for the Fire Service. 6 In addition, voting against this motion does 7 not mean ISPs are not going to get verified in the 8 first 12 months. Some companies will be able to do 9 that. But there's a greater majority that still need 10 to, again, digest the information, upgrade their 11 facilities and their equipment, and we don't want to 12 see this rushed, because we do want good quality 13 outcomes for the Fire Service. Thank you, Mr. 14 Chairman. 15 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Microphone five, 16 please. 17 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo - Marcelo 18 Hirschler, GBH International, speaking for NAFRA, and 19 in support of the motion. 20 It's been demonstrated that one of the critical 21 things to maintain the health of the firefighters is 22 to clean the uniforms, and have uniforms that are as - 23 most up to date as possible. The more gap we allow, 24 the less safe it will be for firefighters. Please 25 support the motion. Thank you.

152 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Microphone five, 2 please. 3 JAY TORLEY (phonetic): Jay Torley, National 4 Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, and I'm 5 in support of the NITMAM. 6 The process for developing the requirements was 7 open and transparent. Specific information used in 8 support of the requirements arose from an extensive, 9 three-year Department of Homeland Security effort that 10 funded the Fire Protection Research Foundation. 11 The Foundation, in turn, worked with the 12 National Personal Protective Technology Laboratory, 13 which is part of the National Institute for 14 Occupational Safety and Health, which conducted the 15 principle research that led to the proposed adopted 16 test methods and suggested criteria. Throughout this 17 process, the industry, and the ISPs were kept informed 18 of the progress, and provided periodic reviews of the 19 project direction. 20 In the course of the project, the proposed 21 procedures and criteria were repeatedly applied to 22 multiple independent service providers. When the 23 requirements were first proposed, some believed that 24 these procedures were not workable, or could not be 25 implemented. These objections were raised before the

153 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 requirements could be fully described during the 2 initial Second Draft meeting for the Committee. And I 3 would like to remind this group that other, more 4 intense test requirements for like the SCBAs are 5 completed in the one-year grace period. 6 So I believe that this is an important issue 7 for the Fire Service, to get ahead of, of 8 contamination control, and its implementation should 9 be undertaken as soon as practicably possible. Thank 10 you. 11 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Microphone number 12 four. 13 JIM REEDY: Morning. My name is Jim Reedy. I 14 represent the Texas State Association of Firefighters. 15 I rise in support of the, the motion. We - I sit on 16 this Committee, and originally I voted for the 24 17 month implementation. But in the State of Texas since 18 that, that Committee meeting, we've had an incident 19 where a supposed verified cleaner sent back gear to a 20 fire department, and the firefighters were injured, 21 based on the improper cleaning procedures. 22 We need to have these cleaners and ISPs 23 verified in a timely manner. Two years is not a 24 timely manner. Now that the - some of the labs can 25 already be up and running and, and do the verification

154 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 that needs to be done, I, I would recommend that we go 2 back to the one-year period, just like everything else 3 is done one year on that standard - we should go to 4 one year. Thank you. 5 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further 6 discussion on Motion 1851-1 to Reject -- 7 KAREN LETONEN (phonetic): Microphone number 8 six. 9 KENNETH BUSH: -- Revision No., No. 37? 10 Microphone six, please. 11 KAREN LETONEN: Thank you. I'm Karen Letonen 12 from Lion (phonetic), and I'm speaking against the 13 motion. I, I'm not here to speak against the 14 verification and the cleaning process. It is 15 extremely critical that that move forward for the 16 health and safety of the firefighter, for them to have 17 clean gear. 18 What I am opposed to at this time is the 19 changing from two years to one year. During the 20 revision process, the Technical Committee discussed at 21 length, and supported the need for the additional time 22 for this verification. These procedures and testing 23 is very complex, and somewhat new to this industry. I 24 agree that there were several studies; the ISPs were 25 kept informed of these test procedures. However, even

155 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 though the labs are stating they are ready, there's 2 still some question about the text that's in the 3 standard. So that concerns me, in terms of not being 4 able to be verified within one year. If that happens, 5 it does further damage to the Fire Service, because 6 there will be no ISPs who are verified to this 7 requirement. And then that leaves you in a position 8 of a gap. So we are speaking against this. 9 The TC recently approved five TIAs to be 10 concurrently published with this Standard. This issue 11 could have been easily submitted as a TIA along with 12 those, so the Committee could have decided if the two 13 year was no longer necessary and we needed to go to a 14 12 month grace period. 15 So if the verification can't be realized, it 16 could put the Fire Service in jeopardy. So again, 17 Lion supports the need for this validation. We are 18 ready to submit it as soon as possible, and so are 19 other organizations. But there - it could be a risk; 20 that we need to understand the challenges for both the 21 testing laboratories, and other ISPs, which is why we 22 are supporting the original direction of the Technical 23 Committee, and speaking against this motion. Thank 24 you. 25 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further

156 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 discussion on Motion 1851-1 to Reject Second Revision 2 No. 37? Mr. Chair, any further comments from 3 Committee? 4 TIM TOMLINSON: Yeah, Mr. Chair. We just - one 5 final comment to give everybody a perspective on the 6 timeline. This document does issue in August. So 7 that's what the timeline we're looking at, as far as 8 the 12 or 24 months. That's all I have, Mr. Chairman. 9 KENNETH BUSH: Seeing no further comments, we 10 will move to a vote. Before we vote, let me restate 11 the motion. The motion on the floor is to Reject 12 Second Revision No. 37. To touch - to vote, touch the 13 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 14 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 15 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 16 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 17 record your vote. 18 The voting will close in five seconds. 19 The voting is closed. Thank you. 20 The results of the vote are: 262 in support of 21 the motion; 148 against the motion. The motion has 22 passed. 23 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 1851? 24 Seeing none, we will move on to the next document. 25 Thank you, Mr. Tomlinson.

157 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 TIM TOMLINSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 2 (applause) 3 KENNETH BUSH: The next report under 4 consideration is that of the Committee on Liquefied 5 Petroleum Gases. Here to present the Committee Report 6 is Committee Chair Richard Hoffmann of Hoffmann, 7 Feige, Brewster, New York. The Committee Report, that 8 is the First and Second Draft Reports, is located on 9 the Document Information Page for NFPA 58 on the NFPA 10 website. All Certified Amending Motions are contained 11 in the NFPA Technical Committee meeting, that is the 12 Tech Session Agenda, and will be displayed behind me 13 on the screen as they are under debate. 14 Mr. Hoffmann, will you present the Chair 15 Report. 16 RICHARD HOFFMANN: Thank you, Sir. Mr. Chair, 17 ladies and gentlemen, the Report of the Technical 18 Committee on Liquefied Petroleum Gases is presented as 19 found in the First Draft Report, and the Second Draft 20 Report of the 2019 annual revision cycle. 21 The Technical Committee has published a First 22 and Second Draft Report, consisting of revisions of - 23 to NFPA 58, Liquefied Petroleum Gas Code. The 24 revisions were submitted to letter ballot of the 25 responsible Technical Committees. The reports and

158 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ballot result can be found in the Next Edition tab of 2 the Document Information Page for NFPA 58, at 3 www.nfpa.org/58next. 4 Mr. Chair, I move for Standard Council 5 issuance, the Committee's Report on NFPA 58. 6 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Mr. Hoffmann. Let's 7 now proceed with the discussion on the Certified 8 Amending Motion on NFPA 58-1. Microphone one, please. 9 TED LEMOFF: My name's Ted Lemoff, and I move 10 to Reject Second Revision 9. 11 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there - there is 12 a motion on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 13 69. Is there a second? 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 15 KENNETH BUSH: We have a second. Please 16 proceed with the discussion on the motion. Microphone 17 -- 18 TED LEMOFF: Thank you. 19 KENNETH BUSH: -- one. 20 TED LEMOFF: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I've been a 21 member of the NFPA 58 Committee since 1985. I served 22 as the Staff Liaison, and I'm the author of - or the 23 editor, of eight editions of the Liquefied Petroleum 24 Gases Handbook. I now represent myself, my own 25 company, on the Committee.

159 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 This is all about purging of flammable gases. 2 Purging of flammable gases is very important, which 3 was highlighted by the Clean Energy explosion in 4 Connecticut in 2010, with six fatalities. Today, 5 there are minimal requirements in NFPA 58 for purging 6 propane, mostly covering purging of cylinders and 7 tanks. I submitted a proposal to add purging 8 requirements for piping systems in the 2020 edition, 9 which was accepted. Proposal required purging for 10 propane lines, with a pressure of up to 125 PSIG in 11 accordance with NFPA 54, and higher pressures in 12 accordance with NFPA 56, which is the standard for 13 fire and explosion during cleaning and purging of 14 flammable gas and piping systems. And just so you 15 understand, the scope of NFPA 54 goes up to, but stops 16 at 125, so that's the reason for that break. And when 17 I say purging, we're talking about replacing of one 18 gas with another - so either air with air, or propane 19 with air, as piping is taken into or out of service. 20 The substantiation for the comment stated that 21 this revision contains references to NFPA 54, which 22 excludes propane over 50 PSIG, and NFPA 56, which 23 excludes propane. Well, these - these statements are 24 true. However, 54 excludes propane systems over 50 25 PSI because above 50 PSI, the propane will condense

160 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 back to a liquid, and if you're feeding this as a fuel 2 to an appliance, you don't want liquid coming in, 3 because the liquid will expand about 260 volumes to 4 one, and if it's a range, you're talking about getting 5 pretty high flames on the top of the range. 6 56 excludes propane because when it developed, 7 the Committee apparently never, never bothered to see 8 what 58 said about purging. In fact, it really only 9 covers purging of tanks and cylinders. 10 The - propane is stored as a liquid, and most 11 propane storage plants can have very long runs of 12 piping, especially rail terminals, pipeline terminals, 13 and marine terminals. And purging of these is very 14 important, and requires specific safety procedures to 15 prevent accidental addition - ignition, which just 16 aren't in NFPA 54. So it's for these higher pressure, 17 and liquid containing lines that we need NFPA 56. I 18 encourage you to vote for the motion. Thank you. 19 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Mr. Hoffmann, would 20 you like to offer the Committee's position? 21 RICHARD HOFFMANN: Pardon me? 22 KENNETH BUSH: I'm sorry - Mr. -- 23 RICHARD HOFFMAN: I didn't hear your question. 24 KENNETH BUSH: Would you like to offer the 25 Committee's position?

161 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 RICHARD HOFFMANN: Yeah. The Committee's 2 position is we are against this motion. The Committee 3 addressed it fully during its meetings. We have 33 4 members; the 24 voted in, in favor of rejecting the 5 motion that was proposed by Mr. Lemoff, and it - there 6 were, there were four negatives against it, and only 7 two discussed the addition of NFPA 56. 8 The NFPA 56 excludes the propane code 9 requirements, and they both require written 10 procedures. The Committee felt that it was best that 11 these purging issues remain in 58, and it referenced 12 54. And that represents our position. 13 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, gentlemen. With 14 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 15 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 16 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 17 Microphone three, please. 18 BRUCE SWIECICKI: Thank you. Bruce Swiecicki 19 with National Propane Gas Association. I'm speaking 20 against the motion on the floor. 21 I'm also a member of all three of the Technical 22 Committees that we are discussing here - 58, 54, and 23 56. And as was pointed out already, the, the scopes 24 don't quite match up in either 56 or 54, with what's 25 in 58. But based on the, the, the motion on the

162 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 floor, we're talking about piping systems designed 2 with pressures greater than 125 PSIG. Those will 3 predominantly be liquid piping systems, to be found at 4 bulk plants, some vaporizer applications. 5 But if you look at the, the actual purging 6 requirements between the two standards, 56 and 54, 7 you'll see that they are very similar, if not 8 identical. They both require written procedures. 9 Chapter 15 in NFPA 58 requires written procedures for 10 operations and maintenance. They both require 11 calibrated detection equipment. The point of 12 discharge is controlled, with respect to sources of 13 ignition, building openings, and the general public. 14 They both require purging with inert gas first, 15 whether in or out of service. 16 But the most important reason to, to vote 17 against this motion is really a safety concern. The 18 propane industry personnel that will be conducting 19 these purging operations are trained according to 20 materials that are provided by the Propane Education 21 and Research Council. And the Council relies heavily 22 on NFPA 58, and NFPA 54 to develop those materials. 23 So you're talking about service personnel in the field 24 that are being trained right now to the requirements 25 of NFPA 54. They are not familiar with 56; 56 is not

163 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 referenced currently in NFPA 58, so you'd be 2 introducing a whole new document, and disrupting 3 potentially the, the training and the effectiveness of 4 these individuals to perform the purging operations 5 safely. So I urge you to support the Technical 6 Committee on this particular one, and vote against the 7 motion. Thank you. 8 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Microphone five. 9 JOHN PUSKAR: Hello. My name is John Puskar. 10 I'm here to support the motion. I'm also a member of 11 NFPA 54 and of 56. I'm not representing those 12 committees officially. I'm speaking on behalf of 13 myself, and my company, Prescient Technical Services 14 in Cleveland, Ohio. 15 The reason I support the motion is really two- 16 fold. Excuse me, I don't know if - getting an 17 interruption there, and how I'm sounding. But the 18 first is that it makes no sense to me at all that we 19 would be providing the same guidance to a plumber 20 installing a residential hot water heating system as 21 we would to a team of people installing a industrial 22 tank farm system with 200-pound pressure propane. It 23 just makes no sense at all. 24 I would believe that most of you in this room 25 commonsensically would agree that as the pressure of a

164 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 piping system increases, so does the hazard. You just 2 can't treat them the same way. In fact, this was 3 recognized, and this was one of the primary reasons 4 why NFPA 56 was created. After a couple of horrible 5 accidents with high pressure gas piping systems, US 6 Chemical Safety Board asked NFPA to create such a 7 document. We now have such a document. 8 The second reason I support this is that 9 document is a great tool, and it provides the proper 10 guidance for this situation. It provides, for 11 example, the need to do a plan. Yes, 54 says do a 12 plan. But 56 actually provides more than 40 specific 13 criteria that you should include in your plan. There 14 are questions that guide you through the creation of 15 the plan - like, where is the cloud going to go when 16 you depressurize a piping system; have you considered 17 the specific chemical properties of what you're 18 releasing; have you considered contacting people in 19 the Fire Service, and the community to let them know 20 that you might be doing this kind of hazardous event. 21 I'm sure you folks in the audience here in the fire 22 community would appreciate that. 23 The second issue is that we asked that a safety 24 validation be created for that plan. So we asked that 25 people who didn't create the plan review that plan,

165 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and challenge it. We also asked that inert substances 2 be used to move residual gasses out. There's specific 3 criteria about isolating piping systems, and it 4 requires the use of meters. And yes, there could be a 5 training deficiency. But 56 requires people to be 6 trained - how to use meters, the hazards of nitrogen. 7 If that training deficiency exists, I'd rather fix the 8 training deficiency than use an inappropriate 9 standard. 10 So I hope you'll join me in supporting, moving 11 with Mr. Lemoff's motion here. We don't need to have 12 more people not coming home from work before we decide 13 to address this. Thank you very much. 14 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you, Sir. Is there any 15 further discussion on Motion 58-1 to Reject Second 16 Revision No. 69? 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right here. 18 KENNETH BUSH: Microphone one, please. 19 TED LEMOFF: Ted Lemoff, speaking for myself. 20 I want to just give a little perspective -- 21 KENNETH BUSH: Excuse me, Sir. In support or 22 against the motion? 23 TED LEMOFF: I'm in support of my motion. 24 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. 25 TED LEMOFF: A little perspective - NFPA's 54

166 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 requirements were developed first, following a, a 2 couple of, of incidents. I mean, it's a very real 3 thing. And it was thought to be an - sufficient and 4 adequate for mostly smaller systems. And I'm not 5 commenting on that. 6 Fifty-six was developed later, and it is 7 clearly more rigorous. And it's my opinion that for 8 the higher pressure, liquid systems, we need a more 9 rigorous system. Thank you very much. 10 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Is there any further 11 discussion on Motion 58-1 to Reject Second Revision 12 No. 69? Mr. Chair, any final comments from the 13 Committee? 14 RICHARD HOFFMANN: My final comments are that 15 NFPA 58 requires written procedures for all of these 16 operations that are performed in these plants, and 17 it's applicable, and it's - references to 54, and - 18 which is the low pressure propane code, propane vapor 19 code, appliances, and it's - I recommend that we vote 20 No on this recommendation. 21 KENNETH BUSH: Thank you. Before we vote, let 22 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 23 Reject Second Revision No. 69. To vote, touch the 24 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 25 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch

167 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 2 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 3 record your vote. 4 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 5 The voting is closed. Thank you. 6 The results of the vote are: 307 in favor of 7 the motion; 102 oppose the motion. The motion has 8 passed. 9 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 58? 10 Seeing none, we will like - we'll move to the next 11 document. 12 I would like to make an announcement. We will 13 only be taking 15 minute breaks throughout the session 14 today. We will not be breaking for lunch. We 15 encourage you to leave to get snacks or lunch at your 16 convenience. There is a food court that is open at 17 the bottom of the escalators, and a food cart 18 immediately outside the ballroom. 19 Before we begin debate on the next standard, I 20 would like to introduce James Quiter, member of the 21 Standards Council, who will be the Presiding Officer 22 for motions before the Membership on the next three 23 standards. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Bush. We have a 25 lot of work to do, so we're going to dive right in.

168 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The next report under consideration is that of 2 the Technical Committee on Fire Protection for Nuclear 3 Facilities. Here to present the Committee Report is 4 Committee Chair William Till of Bernie Till & 5 Associates, Orangeburg, South Carolina. 6 The Committee Report, that is the First and 7 Second Draft Reports, is located on the Document 8 Information Page for NFPA 801, on the NFPA website. 9 All Certified Amending Motions are contained in the 10 NFPA Technical Meeting (Tech Session) Agenda, and will 11 be displayed behind me on the screen as they are under 12 debate. 13 Mr. Till, will you present the Chair Report. 14 WILLIAM TILL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. 15 Chair, ladies and gentlemen, the Report of the 16 Technical Committee on Fire Protection for Nuclear 17 Facilities is presented as found in the First Draft 18 Report, and Second Draft Report, for the 2019 annual 19 revision cycle. The Technical Committee has published 20 a First and Second Draft Report consisting of 21 revisions to NFPA 801, Standard for Fire Protection 22 for Facilities Handling Radioactive Materials. The 23 revisions were submitted to letter ballot of the 24 responsible Technical Committee. The reports and 25 ballot results can be found on the Next Edition tab of

169 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the Document Information Page for NFPA 801, at 2 www.nfpa.org/801next. 3 Mr. Chair, I move for Standard Council 4 issuance, the Committee's Report on NFPA 801. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Till. Let's now 6 proceed with the discussion on the Certified Amending 7 Motion on NFPA 801-1. Microphone four, please. 8 JAMES PETERKIN: Yes, this is James Peterkin 9 with TLC Engineering Solutions, and I move to accept 10 Certified Amending Motion 801-1 to Reject Second 11 Revision 1. 12 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There is a motion on 13 the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 1. Is there a 14 second? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 16 JAMES QUITER: I hear a second. So please 17 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 18 JAMES PETERKIN: Yes, thank you. Yeah, this 19 again is not necessarily opposed to the - what the 20 code - the Technical Committee is trying to do here. 21 I just think it's bad code language. There - the, the 22 proposed code language requires fire protection 23 systems shall be tested in their entirety, end to end 24 - which is not really defined; it's kind of vague. 25 They further put Annex material, and it says, 'should

170 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 be tested in accordance with NFPA 4' - which is the 2 standard for integrated testing. 3 What they should have done was just put in, 4 'tested in accordance with NFPA 4'. I just think the 5 language is a little too vague, and should be cleaned 6 up. So - look forward for your support. Thanks. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Till, would you 8 like to offer the Committee's position? 9 WILLIAM TILL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 10 Technical Committee provided the language presented in 11 recognition of the need for a thorough and complete 12 verification of the operability of integrated fire 13 protection systems. Given the complexity of 14 facilities which handle radioactive materials, and the 15 unique hazards associated with those materials, the 16 reliability of fire protection systems performing as 17 intended is paramount to reducing the potential 18 consequences of fires. 19 The - with regard to the submitter's comments 20 on the non-mandatory language in the Annex, that is by 21 design, in accordance with the NFPA Guidelines for 22 Recommended Guidance in the Annex; and what we - what 23 the intent of the Committee was, was to drive the 24 integrated testing, but without being overly specific 25 with regard to how that is done, but yet still

171 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 recognize the best available guidance on that subject. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, gentlemen. With 3 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 4 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 5 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 6 Microphone three, please. 7 DAN FINNEGAN: Hi. Good morning. My name is - 8 I'll be speaking against the motion. My name is Dan 9 Finnegan with Siemens Smart Infrastructure. And I'm a 10 member of various NFPA Technical Committees including 11 72, but I'm not speaking on their behalf. 12 The proponent's statement that maybe the code 13 language could have been better - that's debatable. 14 But I'm really against the idea of eliminating this 15 entirely. 16 The - it's important that we do end to end 17 testing on these systems, because as the codes and 18 standards stand today - for example, 72 and 25, there 19 is a gap. We are directed in NFPA 72 to only test up 20 to the point of interface. We do not test end to end, 21 or follow through the whole sequence of life safety 22 measures. So it's important that this language be 23 there. 24 The reference to NFPA 4 is rock solid - that is 25 the standard for integrated testing. And maybe next

172 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 time around, if we want to tune that language up a 2 little bit - but the industry understands what end to 3 end testing means, and I think this is appropriate to 4 stay in, and it will be a significant life safety 5 issue if it should be removed by accepting this 6 motion. So I ask everyone to please vote against this 7 motion. Thank you. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone one, 9 please. 10 DAVE DEGENAIS: Dave Degenais, speaking on 11 behalf of the Healthcare Section, in favor of the 12 motion. The Healthcare Section met yesterday at their 13 annual business meeting, and voted to speak and 14 support this motion. Again, we are not against the 15 expectation around testing or integrative testing. 16 What we are against is the terminology of end to end. 17 It is unclear. It gives - lacks clarity. The 18 reference to NFPA 4 is really all that should have 19 existed. As an owner, at the end of the day, it, it - 20 you, you don't understand, and will not know what that 21 end to end testing is. 22 Also, the other thing I want to emphasize is 23 that this is for facilities that handle radioactive 24 material. There's a variety of facilities that do 25 have access to radioactive materials - not necessarily

173 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 nuclear power plants, but the radioactive material 2 exists within many industries. So the Healthcare 3 Section urge you to support this motion. We believe 4 that the integrative testing expectation requirements 5 already exist within NFPA 4, and that will be 6 addressed there, and then clean this up and get it 7 back on the next cycle. I urge you to support. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 9 please. 10 HOWARD HOPPER: Howard Hopper, UL. Just a 11 point of order. You know, I was - I was familiar with 12 the term end to end testing. And I looked into the 13 NFPA 4, and this is a defined term - end to end 14 integrated system testing. So I'm not sure if there's 15 really that much confusion about what that entails. 16 Thank you. 17 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 18 discussion? Microphone three. 19 DAN FINNEGAN: Yes. Hi. Good afternoon. Dan 20 Finnegan, Siemens Smart Industry. Just really one 21 more time - expressing the caution, if this motion 22 goes forward -- 23 JAMES QUITER: Sorry - for or against? 24 DAN FINNEGAN: Excuse me. I am against the 25 motion, Sir. And just wanted to reiterate, as Mr.

174 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Hopper said, that end to end testing is defined, and 2 that if we eliminate this by accepting this motion, we 3 will have no direction or guidance towards end to end 4 testing, and referring to NFPA 4. I'm in agreement 5 that next cycle around, we could improve the language. 6 But this needs to stay where it's at for now. Please 7 vote against this motion. Thank you. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 9 discussion. Microphone six - you're not discussing? 10 No. Okay. Is there any further discussion to - on 11 Motion 801-1 to Reject Second Revision No. 1? If not, 12 Mr. Chair, do you have - would you like an opportunity 13 to - for final comments? 14 WILLIAM TILL: I do, Mr. Chair, thank you. The 15 Committee voted unanimously in support of the 16 requirements for integrated testing for facilities 17 handling radioactive materials because of the critical 18 importance of fire protection systems and protection 19 of both on site personnel, and the general public. 20 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Before we vote, let 22 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 23 Reject Second Revision No. 1. To vote, touch the 24 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 25 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch

175 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 2 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 3 record your vote. 4 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 5 The voting is closed. Thank you. 6 The results of the vote are: 51 in favor; 346 7 voted no. Therefore, the motion fails. 8 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 801? 9 Seeing none, we will move on to the next document. 10 Thank you, Mr. Till. 11 (applause) 12 JAMES QUITER: The next report under 13 consideration is that of the Technical Committee on 14 Energy Storage Systems. Here to present the Committee 15 Report is Committee Chair James Biggins of TUV SUD 16 America Inc., Manhattan, Illinois. 17 The Committee Report, that is the First and 18 Second Draft Reports, is located on the Document 19 Information Page for NFPA 855 on the NFPA website. 20 All Certified Amending Motions are contained in the 21 NFPA Technical Meeting (Tech Session) Agenda, and will 22 be displayed behind me on the screen as they are under 23 debate. 24 Mr. Biggins, will you present the Chair Report. 25 JAMES BIGGINS: Thank you. Mr. Chair, ladies

176 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and gentlemen, the Report of the Technical Committee 2 on Energy Storage Systems is presented as found in the 3 First Draft Report, and the Second Draft Report for 4 the 2019 annual revision cycle. The Technical 5 Committee has published a First and Second Draft 6 Report consisting of revisions to NFPA 855, Standard 7 for the Installation of Stationary Energy Storage 8 Systems. The revisions were submitted to letter 9 ballot of the responsible Technical Committee. The 10 reports and ballot results can be found on the Next 11 Edition tab of the Document Information Page for NFPA 12 855, at www.nfpa.org/855next. Mr. Chair, I move for 13 the Standards Council issuance, the Committee's Report 14 on 855. 15 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Biggins. Let's 16 now proceed with the discussion on the Certified 17 Amending Motion on NFPA 855-1. There you are. 18 Microphone one, please. 19 JAMES HOUSTON: Okay. My name is James 20 Houston. I'm with Southern Company, and Chair of the 21 National Electric Safety Code Committee, Subcommittee 22 Three for Supply Stations. I am Sue Vogel's 23 designated representative, and speaking on her behalf. 24 Ms. Vogel is the IEEE - was with - is with IEEE as the 25 Senior Manager responsible for the NESC. I move to

177 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Accept Public Comments 912 and 454. 2 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion on the floor 3 to Accept Public Comment 912 and 454. Is there a 4 second? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 7 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 8 proceed with the discussion on the floor. Microphone 9 one. 10 JAMES HOUSTON: Okay. The electric utility 11 industry encourages the NFPA members to continue to 12 recognize the boundaries between the NFPA codes, and 13 the National Electric Safety Code. Both organizations 14 are highly committed to safety. The electric utility 15 environment is a hazardous one for those not familiar 16 with it. It is therefore important that utilities be 17 allowed to continue to develop codes where their 18 expertise in complex electrical systems and energy 19 storage is essential. 20 The National Electric Safety Code is the 21 established consensus standard that is used in whole 22 or in part by statute, regulation, or consent, as the 23 standard of safe practices for public and private 24 utilities in the US. The National Electric Safety 25 Code is voluntary, adopted by the federal government,

178 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and as large - majority of the US states, giving the 2 effect of law. It is also used in various 3 jurisdictions and industries in other countries, and 4 has been in existence for over 100 years. 5 The purpose of the National Electric Safety 6 Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and 7 facilities on the utilities side of the service point, 8 whereas the NFPA 70 applies to facilities behind the 9 service point. 10 NFPA 855 does not allow - does not allow for 11 this historical delineation. The NESC 2022 revision 12 is addressing energy storage, and change proposals to 13 the NESC have already been submitted to support the 14 Department of Energy's coordination of ESS code 15 changes. These changed proposals are extensive and 16 comprehensive. Many 855 provisions should not be 17 applicable to installations constructed under the 18 NESC. Thus, similar to the structure of the NEC, 19 there should be two subsections to the scope of 855 - 20 covered, and not covered. 21 The - this course of action is strongly 22 recommended by the National Electric Safety Code 23 Executive Committee. 24 Additionally, the National Electric Safety Code 25 welcomes the submission of public comments from all

179 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 stakeholders and entities for the revision of the 2022 2 National Electric Safety Code, and the pre 3 (unintelligible) opens to public comment July 1st, 4 2019. That will be in a couple weeks. 5 I would also like to encourage that the 6 National Electric Safety Code and NFPA leaders who 7 work closely together to prevent code conflicts such 8 as this one, as outlined in the white paper developed 9 by both the NESC and NEC leaderships. This paper is 10 the NEC and NESC Partners for a Safer Tomorrow, dated 11 October 2016, and the recommendation be adopted from 12 this paper for a Cross Code Correlation Committee to 13 apply to all code development matters. This will help 14 lay out a clear roadmap for future code development, 15 and prevent conflicts. 16 I respectfully ask that the NFPA members vote 17 for Certified Amending Motion 855-1. Thank you. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 19 please. 20 HOWARD HOPPER: Howard Hopper, UL, also a 21 member of the - TC member; but for this motion and the 22 other 855 motions, I will not be speaking on behalf of 23 the Committee. I'm speaking against the motion. 24 Now, the issue of electric utility ESS 25 installations was debated extensively at the

180 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Committee, at the number of - large number of 2 Committee meetings we had. And we have a number of 3 specific requirements in 855 that apply to electric 4 utilities. There's specifically some carveouts for 5 lead acid systems at their facilities. 6 Now, the real safety concern you have here is 7 ESS systems under the exclusive control of electric 8 utilizes are no longer limited to those at a remote 9 power plant, or those at a remote switch gear area 10 location. These, these ESS installations - you may 11 have a floor of a building in an urban area that's 12 under the exclusive control of the electric utility. 13 And what we'd say here is that with these requirements 14 in place in this building, if the electric utility 15 owned that floor, we'd say - you don't have any ESS 16 requirements. We're going to exempt them to some 17 other utility requirements that are, I guess, due to 18 be developed in 2022. 19 So the hazard's the same. It doesn't depend if 20 the electric utility owns the ESS, or they're under 21 private ownership - the hazard's the same. 22 We also did accommodate the electric utilities 23 in, in 855, because we specifically developed 24 requirements for ESS at dedicated, remote facilities, 25 such as indoor installations, such as those at a power

181 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 plant, or for remote outdoor locations, such as - 2 outdoor ESS locations, such as those at a, at a 3 switchyard. 4 So vote - I'm urging you to vote against this, 5 because you're introducing - with this exception, 6 you're introducing exposure hazards to occupants, 7 occupancies, and emergency responders. Thank you. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Biggins, my 9 apologies. I forgot to give you an opportunity to 10 talk on behalf of the Committee. 11 JAMES BIGGINS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 12 Howard just mentioned a couple of points. First, this 13 is the first of a number of motions that'll be made to 14 try to exempt electric utilities from the NFPA 55 15 Standard. And as Howard mentioned, the Technical 16 Committee, for the large scale, grid type systems 17 created two categories - dedicated use buildings, and 18 remote locations, in order to exempt these 19 installations that are under the direct control and 20 supervision of utilities and the power companies from 21 being covered by 855. 22 Also, a great deal of concern is from 23 utilities, there's a misconception that this standard 24 would impose new, cumbersome requirements on lead acid 25 or nickel cadmium battery systems and substations, and

182 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 power plants. When these issues were brought to the 2 attention of the Technical Committee by the industry, 3 the Committee carefully considered the comments, and 4 provided exemptions from these requirements in various 5 sections of Chapter Four, in the Second Revision of 6 the draft. These requirements, they are provided in 7 exemptions; it's very similar to the wording within 8 NFPA 70, and state that if the installations aren't 9 installed in accordance with IEEE-C2, then they do not 10 fall under the requirements of NFPA 855. 11 The one thing that NFPA 855 Technical Committee 12 did not exempt the utilities or anybody from, are the 13 requirements that directly affect the public safety, 14 or the safety of first responders. This includes 15 means of egress requirements; developing commissioning 16 and decommissioning requirements and plans for 17 installations; develop, developing a - performing a 18 hazards analysis when the scope of the installation 19 goes beyond what's required by 855, or - or is of, of 20 a technology that 855 does not cover yet. 21 With respect to this motion, the proposed 22 wording would exclude utilities from 855, and also 23 within the substantiation of the submitter, it was 24 made quite clear that these requirements are not yet 25 in C2. They're being proposed, and they will not be

183 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 within the C2 document until 2022, and the Committee 2 does not feel that any installation should be not - 3 essentially, not covered by any requirements until 4 that point. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Biggins. To 6 microphone four please. 7 SHARON BONESTEEL: Sharon Bonesteel, Salt River 8 Project, speaking in support of the motion on the 9 floor, and seeking your support. 10 When I utilize a code or a standard, the more 11 exemptions it has scattered throughout the document 12 makes it more difficult to use. NFPA has 13 traditionally honored the line of demarcation. They 14 have understood that utilities require a different 15 approach. We have NFPA 801 for nuclear plants; 850 16 for electric generating plans; 851 for hydro-plants. 17 And potentially, we need another NFPA standard. But I 18 like the idea of sticking with the National Electric 19 Safety Code, because it is - it is well set up to 20 coordinate the standards with those other authorities 21 having jurisdiction on us, which include the federal 22 government. 23 One of the things we dealt with between the 24 First and Second Draft, is helping the Committee 25 understand the different situations we operate under.

184 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 We have to deal with the security of the grid. 2 There's a lot of things we can't do in the normal 3 format. What we learned in Arizona, is what we need 4 is training, and cooperation, and discussions. And 5 we're moving forward, pursuing some of those 6 conversations. 7 But to sit there and say that the battery 8 doesn't know who it's working for, in some ways is 9 just like saying - let's take a Formula One race car, 10 and let's see how Lewis Hamilton drives it, versus 11 your teenage son. 12 And I think when you're dealing with utilities, 13 you are dealing with a lot of different conditions. 14 We had a tough time explaining that under certain 15 conditions - don't go in there. Let it burn. We 16 don't - we don't worry about that, because it's more 17 important to us to keep the power flowing on the grid; 18 to keep those services being provided. We're looking 19 at much bigger pictures. Life safety is important. 20 Respecting tradition, and the reasons for those 21 separations is highly important. We urge your support 22 of this motion on the floor. Thank you. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone six, 24 please. 25 MIKE GURNEE (phonetic): Thank you. Mike

185 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Gurnee, speaking on behalf of myself, and I'm opposing 2 the amendment. Working for an AHJ, not having the 3 ability to review and look at the safety features puts 4 our first responders, and potentially the public, at 5 risk. Now, the utility companies do a fantastic job 6 handling power plants, and generation. But these ESS 7 systems are being placed within neighborhoods. 8 They're not a traditional power plant. And when 9 people call the Fire Department, we have a duty to 10 respond, and a duty of care, and we need to be able to 11 make sure that our first responders are safe, and that 12 we can keep an eye on what's going on. It's just part 13 of the check and balance in the system. We don't want 14 to put the grid at risk or anything, but we do have to 15 protect our responding personnel. Thank you. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone one, 17 please. 18 PAUL HAYES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is 19 Paul Hayes. I'm in favor of 85-0-1. I am a FPE, Fire 20 Protection Engineer, with American Fire Technologies. 21 I represent my own company. I've got 35 years' 22 experience in special hazards protection. 23 And I'm going to start off by saying that an 24 asset is not worth a life. I think that's very 25 important for us to recognize, no matter what we do,

186 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and what we say. I have been intimately involved with 2 the code process, which basically means I've been 3 irritating the hell out of the Committee throughout 4 this whole process. So -- 5 JAMES QUITER: It'd be better if you were a 6 little closer to the mic. 7 PAUL HAYES: Okay. So I'm an integrator. At 8 the end of the day, I take to take the code and make 9 it work. What is the equipment that's applied, how is 10 it applied, what does it look like. I am an SME for 11 New York City to help them solve this problem. I am 12 on the 95-40A Task Group. But I represent myself. 13 Actually, as Sharon mentioned, one of the best 14 strategies is to let it burn. It does two things. 15 It, it sounds strange, but it removes stranded energy, 16 so we don't have to deal with it, as we've seen in 17 Arizona. And secondly, what burns doesn't explode. 18 So this is not, obviously, a good approach for high 19 hazard areas. I don't believe in that approach for 20 high risk and urban environments. And honestly, 21 between the code right now, I don't believe it goes 22 far enough for adequate protection of life and safety 23 in high hazard environments. I'll address that a 24 little bit later in some further NITMAMs. 25 But I would recommend that this be passed,

187 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 because it allows the opportunity for the, the 2 utilities to operate under IFC. This exemption 3 already exists under the IFC codes, so you're getting 4 into some conflicts on where do you apply the code. 5 Utilities allow for secure, remote facilities - 6 let it burn; do not enter; do not jeopardize first 7 responders, and the public. A life is not worth an 8 asset. So since the Arizona incident, I've seen a 9 real big change in the industry. They have picked up 10 the mantle. They are diagnosing the inherent hazards. 11 They are making sure that safety truly is first. 12 This, this has been a shift in the industry. 13 To be fair, we are learning every single day. 14 There's new insights into this hazard, and what it 15 means. Today, we are vastly superior on what we know, 16 than we knew several months ago, eight months ago when 17 this code was being developed. Keep in mind, energy 18 is not the same as risk. We can fire a shotgun in New 19 York, or West Virginia, and my apologies to New York 20 and West Virginia. But in New York, you run the risk 21 of life and safety. In West Virginia, you're gonna be 22 lucky to hit a squirrel. So energy is not the same 23 thing as risk. 24 We have not found the silver bullet yet, but we 25 are working on it. Allow the utilities to work under

188 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 a hundred years of power operation. Do not jeopardize 2 life and safety. An asset is not worth the risk. 3 Please support this motion. Thank you. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 5 please. 6 MATT PACE (phonetic): Thank you, Mr. Chair. 7 My name is Matt Pace. I am a retired Fire Captain 8 from San Jose Fire Department, and I represent the 9 International Association of Firefighters on both the 10 National Electrical Code, and 855. 11 I'm requesting the Committee's vote against 12 this motion. A number of the justifications that we 13 have heard speak about acknowledging the risks of some 14 of these technologies, and letting it burn. The 15 problem right now with 855 - has been acknowledged by 16 a lot of people - is it paints with a very broad 17 brush, all energy storage technologies. We've made 18 some attempts to separate them by technology, without 19 being too prescriptive. But there are many 20 technologies that include that family of energy 21 storage. Lithium ion is just one, and it's a very, 22 very energetic technology. 23 This particular motion, seeking a broad 24 exemption from all energy storage, is just simply too 25 broad to allow the kind of safety that's needed for

189 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 some of these technologies, like some of the lithium 2 ion chemistries. Recently in Arizona there was an 3 explosion at a utility power plant, a substation. 4 There was not enough knowledge in both the personnel 5 that responded, representing the battery, as well as 6 the firefighters that responded. Two firefighters 7 were blown over 70 feet away. They were standing 8 outside. The metal door was bent in two. It's proof 9 that it's a very, very significantly dangerous 10 technology when not managed properly. There's a lot 11 of us - there's a lot that needs to be learned to 12 protect these systems. 13 This week at the conference, we heard some very 14 valuable data from FM Global that shows the difficulty 15 in providing adequate fire protection to lithium ion 16 battery systems. Again, to provide a broad exemption 17 to the utility industry - and no disparagement at all 18 against the utility industry; they manage lead acid, 19 and nicad battery technologies very safely. But to 20 just say because they're managing a lithium ion 21 battery it's going to perform safely, when this 22 installation could be very close, or inside occupied 23 structures - it just goes too far for the technology 24 right now. 25 We request disapproval of this motion. Thank

190 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 you very much. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. I'm going to go to 3 microphone four, but I'll assure you folks in the back 4 that I'm getting to you. Microphone four. 5 TIM MYERS: This is Tim, Tim Myers for 6 Exponent, Incorporated, speaking in favor of the 7 motion. First off, I'd like to thank the Technical 8 Committee for all their hard work on this standard. 9 I've been on an NFPA Committee writing a new standard, 10 and I realize it's, it's a lot of work. You have to 11 deal with a lot of public input, public comment, and, 12 and write the standard. So I appreciate all of your, 13 your effort. 14 I'd like to talk a little bit about the scope. 15 The scope is really one of the most important parts of 16 an NFPA document because it controls who falls under a 17 standard. 18 In the Second Revision, there were 40 public 19 comments addressing the scope. They were all rejected 20 by the Committee. I think as you heard earlier, this 21 standard is intended to be very broad, and to apply to 22 a lot of energy storage systems of different types - 23 from flywheels, compressed air, hydraulic, to 24 batteries. But really, most of the requirements in 25 this standard are geared towards protecting a energy

191 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 storage system with a lot of lithium ion batteries in 2 a very small area. 3 Unfortunately, this, this applies to a lot of 4 different applications. I'll give you one example 5 right here that that makes sense. All of you have one 6 of these iPads. I counted the number of people that 7 voted on the first vote this morning, the example of 8 one. The total energy quantity of the iPads that 9 voted exceeded the threshold quantity for NFPA 855. 10 So maybe this room falls under this standard. Some of 11 you would argue, 'Well, these aren't connected; 12 they're not plugged in.' Well, I would argue that we 13 probably have enough laptops plug in, in these 14 thousand seats here, that they would be considered a 15 mobile and portable ESS installed in a stationary 16 configuration. 17 So I think one of the problems we really need 18 to think about with this standard is what other types 19 of things that it's going to apply to and impact, that 20 really wasn't the intention. 21 There are other standards that cover energy 22 storage - NFPA 1; the IFC. NFPA 1 actually includes a 23 specific exemption that says that you don't have to 24 distribute, or you don't have to aggregate distributed 25 pieces of the equipment in a large room. Thank you.

192 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone six, 2 please. 3 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 4 International, speaking for NAFRA, and in opposition. 5 Just want to point out a couple of things. Number 6 one, the last speaker just was -- 7 JAMES QUITER: Are you for, or against? 8 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Sorry - against the motion. 9 I thought I'd said so. I apologize. Against the 10 motion. 11 The last speaker was just talking about NFPA 1. 12 NFPA 1 as - is very well correlated with 855. So the 13 people who wrote, a lot - a number of the members of 14 the Committee of NFPA 855 are also on the committee, 15 the - that works with the Fire Code Action Committee 16 for the IFC, and the RRC, and that's very well 17 correlated. 18 On the other hand, the NESC does not have 19 details for dealing with ESS. One of the speakers 20 before talked about that we have multiple types of 21 technologies, and yet the only thing we know so far is 22 what has been - what's, what has occurred in the past. 23 The 855 has addition information about emerging 24 technologies, which are not covered by other things. 25 It would be a mistake to exclude all utilities,

193 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 when the details for those emerging technologies, and 2 detail for some of the existing technology, are not 3 covered by NESC yet. Please oppose the motion. Thank 4 you. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone five, 6 please. 7 MICHAEL BUCKLEY: Hi. My name is Michael 8 Buckley, representing the Edison Electric Institute. 9 I am here in support of this motion. EEI is the 10 representation - is the organization that represents 11 all investor owned electric utilities in the United 12 States. Our members provide electricity for 220 13 million Americans, and our members unanimously agree 14 that electric utilities should not be included under 15 the scope of, of, of this standard. 16 Safety and reliability are of paramount concern 17 to electric utilities. Electric utilities, under the 18 scope of NFPA 855, will lead to conflicts among 19 regulators, and create confusion for AHJs. 20 Including our industry under this standard 21 could be dangerous for first responders. Energy 22 storage systems are not the primary hazard in electric 23 utility operations. So please allow me to emphasize 24 that point again. Energy storage systems are not the 25 primary hazard for electric utilities.

194 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 EEI and our member companies adamantly believe 2 that NFPA should honor the traditional demarcation 3 between NFPA and the NESC. EEI therefore asks for 4 your support of this motion. As the EEI 5 representative here, I will withdraw the other motions 6 we have for NFPA 855, if CAM 855-1 passes. Thank you. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 8 please. 9 ROBERT DAVIDSON: Robert Davidson, Davidson 10 Concepts. I am a member of the 855 Technical 11 Committee. I'm also a member of the International 12 Code Council's Fire Code Action Committee, Energy Work 13 Group that did all the work in that code to correlate. 14 But I'm not speaking for those groups. I'm speaking 15 for myself, and against the motion. 16 So they, they want to use this term 17 'exclusively under the control of the utility 18 companies' when today, that does-- that's not the 19 world today. Yes, there's sites they exclusively 20 control. But we have large utility scale 21 installations going in with partnerships. They're 22 going on private property, but they're being managed 23 by the utility company. They're going on private 24 property by somebody else's investor. They're going 25 to be on utility property by private investors, but

195 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 then managed by the utility company. Right. The 2 lines are blurred. They're not all remote. All 3 right? They're in urban, urban environments. Or they 4 may have started out at a remote location, but because 5 of the massive growth in some communities, they 6 quickly are no longer remote. In all cases, the Fire 7 Service has to respond, and deal with the incidents, 8 and the safety of these systems is extremely 9 important. 10 I heard a - I heard testimony that the IFC has, 11 already has its exemption in there. That is not 12 correct. The International Fire Code has an exemption 13 for distribution transmission equipment that matches 14 the 2014 National Electrical Code exemption. When the 15 2017 National Electric Code was updated to include ESS 16 in that exemption, that was not added to the IFC, so 17 that they would still be regulated, and by the 1206 18 Energy Storage Systems. 19 I heard that they're updating the NESC. That's 20 good, because currently the NESC has a page - less 21 than a page and a quarter applying to lead acid 22 batteries. That's it. All right. I also heard one 23 of the proponents mention the Arizona incident. If 24 they were to build that installation today, there's 25 absolutely no guidance in the NESC for that lithium

196 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ion installation. Think of that. That's what they 2 want us to point to; there's absolutely no guidance. 3 You could build it that way again. 4 I urge your Membership to support the 5 Committee, and vote against the motion. 6 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 7 five, please. 8 DOUG BERKER (phonetic): Doug Berker, 9 (unintelligible). I want to speak in favor - I'm 10 sorry, I'm getting feedback from the microphone. I 11 want to speak in favor of the motion. I think any 12 time that you can clarify definitions by covering 13 what's covered and what's not covered, it only adds to 14 the standard. 15 I would like to reinforce what a previous 16 speaker said - that if you feel that the energy 17 storage system under the control of utilities, should 18 be specified, then we need to develop a separate 19 regulation for it. 20 Final point of order that I wanted to clarify 21 when we first started, is that the motion of what was 22 made, and what was on the screen are in conflict. The 23 maker of the motion was speaking in favor of 454. And 24 the screen says 654. So if we could please clarify 25 which we're voting for. That's all I have.

197 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Let us check on that for 2 a moment. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 4 JAMES QUITER: Okay. You are correct. It's 5 Public Comment 454. The screen is incorrect. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. 7 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Microphone three, please. 8 HOWARD HOPPER: Howard Hopper, UL. Just a 9 couple of quick points. There's some testimony 10 provided that the industry has NFPA 850 to rely on. 11 But we discussed that at the Committee. That's a, a 12 recommended practice. It's not enforceable. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: For or against? 14 HOWARD HOPPER: Speaking against the motion. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 17 HOWARD HOPPER: Yeah. Also, there's discussion 18 about the ESS associated with laptops and, and 19 computers. That's not defined as ESS. ESS is defined 20 as energy storage that provides electric power as an 21 output of it - not just that utilizes that. So that 22 was incorrect - or incorrect testimony. 23 The other thing is, if I had an exemption like 24 this, it's appropriate for the National Electrical 25 Code, because the requirements are very similar - the

198 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 electrical installation either at a utility or a non- 2 utility based installation. But they really, as Mr. 3 Davidson pointed out, there's no ESS protection 4 requirements in that document today. And so if this 5 motion passes, we'll have nothing to protect those 6 installations in jurisdictions that enforce the 855. 7 The - I think the one other thing I saw was I, 8 I heard someone from the electric utilities say that 9 ESS is not really the safety consideration you're 10 going to see at electric utility. I, I was kind of 11 dumbfounded by that, because it, it, it - it really 12 provides a very hazardous exposure to - again, to 13 occupants and emergency responders. And it's 14 especially of concern if you have a utility owned 15 facility in a urban area, possibly a mixed use 16 building. Urge you to vote against the motion. Thank 17 you. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Just for 19 clarification, the text in the Agenda was correct 20 originally. The screen has now been updated to 21 reference 454 instead of 654. Okay. I'll go to 22 microphone number four, please. 23 ANTHONY NATALE: Good afternoon. Anthony 24 Natale, speaking in support of the motion, 25 representing Consolidated Edison of New York. I'm

199 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 responsible for risk and industrial fire. My 2 expertise is high voltage firefighting. The APS 3 incident -- 4 JAMES QUITER: You're speaking -- 5 ANTHONY NATALE: -- is not -- 6 JAMES QUITER: -- for or against? 7 ANTHONY NATALE: Speaking in support. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 9 ANTHONY NATALE: The APS incident is not the 10 norm; it's the anomaly. We manage much greater 11 hazards on a daily basis without incident. In our 12 current ESS system designs, we consider flammable gas 13 accumulation in an enclosed space. We are able to 14 manage this risk without being governed by 855. 15 Managing this risk is nothing new to the utility 16 industry. We manage thousand PSI gas mains in our 17 generating stations on a daily basis, without 18 incident. 19 In the matter of APS, they learned a valuable 20 lesson which has been widely shared in the utility 21 industry to ensure there will be no future 22 reoccurrence. 23 The constraints of 855 will hinder large scale 24 grid projects. For example, to further limit risk, 25 the Committee wants to cap battery size. Folks, the

200 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 smallest breaker in your house is 15 amps. Ours is 2 63,000 amps in stations with open air, 500,000 volt 3 conductors. Based on the hazards found in the utility 4 locations, energy storage systems don't make the top 5 10 list. However, we manage these facilities every 6 day without incident, without safety issues. 7 We are heavily regulated by a number of 8 different groups that impose rigorous inspection, 9 testing, and maintenance programs that come with 10 significant penalty mechanisms. 11 I think 855 will play a valuable role in 12 providing guidance on residential and commercial 13 installations to folks not familiar with energy 14 hazards. This is our job. We do this every day, and 15 we are seeking your support in this exemption. At the 16 end of the day, is there really a value in trying to 17 tell the watchmaker what time it is? Thank you. 18 JAMES QUITER: Okay, thank you. I'm going to 19 stay at microphone number four. There's a lot of 20 people lined up in the four column, so make sure 21 you're presenting new information. Microphone four. 22 ROBERT HARRIS: Yes. My name is Robert Harris. 23 I'm here to represent the National Rural 24 Electrification - Association of Rural Electric Co- 25 Ops, speaking in favor of the motion.

201 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 NRECA is a service organization for 2 approximately 900 electric cooperatives in the United 3 States. We serve power to approximately 42 million 4 people in 47 states, and cover well over half the 5 country's land mass. Some of our cooperatives are in 6 suburban service areas, but this estimated average is 7 about eight customers per mile of distribution line, 8 and we do have some members that are down as low as 9 one customer per mile. So we are in some very rural 10 parts of the country in some cases. 11 Providing safe, reliable, and affordable 12 electricity is the primary mission of America's 13 electric cooperatives. We feel that this motion 14 supports that mission, and ask for your support in 15 favor of the motion. Thank you. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone five, 17 please. 18 CHRIS CIONI: Speaking in support of the 19 motion. My name is Chris Cioni with Calpine 20 Corporation. Just wanting to start with an analogy 21 from what was discussed our with the propane, and the 22 differences between NFPA 54 and 56. And that's very 23 much the case here, where the National Electric Safety 24 Code and the NEC, NFPA 70 are the right codes for the 25 right applications, but they're two different

202 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 documents. 2 And to speak to some of the concerns of the 3 firefighters and first responders in this room - we 4 are currently, today, developing a project that's 5 going to begin construction shortly in Southern 6 California, and we're going about this the way 7 utilities go about doing business every day. We're 8 sitting down with the system original equipment 9 manufacturer, and we're sitting down with all of the 10 fire and safety organizations in that area. They want 11 to understand what their people are going to be 12 exposed to. They want to know how to respond. But 13 they point to us as the experts. They want us to 14 teach them what to do to keep their people safe, and 15 that's what we intend to do, and we are doing. 16 Again, this is a facility in a very dense urban 17 area, Southern California. It also happens to be 18 located about a hundred yards from one of their fire 19 stations that houses their HAZMAT team. So these 20 people have a very keen interest in understanding what 21 they're exposed to, and what they're going to be asked 22 to do. And our first thing that we do in every 23 activity is safety - safety for our own people, safety 24 for the public, safety for the first responders. So 25 we are looking at that as our primary mission. We are

203 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 going to sit down together. We will work through all 2 of these issues, their questions. We will take every 3 consideration into account. The OEM is going to be 4 able to respond, in, in terms of making them 5 completely knowledgeable and comfortable with what's 6 out there, what to do, what not to do, when to do it. 7 So again, just to reiterate, there are reasons 8 why the electric utility is operating the most 9 hazardous electrical systems in the country, and the 10 NEC 70 code is typically for lower hazard, more common 11 occupancies. Thank you. 12 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone four, 13 please. 14 PAUL HAYES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Paul Hayes, 15 in favor. A point of clarification. I did -- 16 JAMES QUITER: Who are you representing? 17 PAUL HAYES: Myself; no other company. Point 18 of clarification. I do have an Amending Motion No. 6, 19 which asks for the scope change under utilizing the 20 IFC. I will withdraw that if this is approved. 21 But I wanted to clarify what's in 2018 IFC. It 22 says it shall not apply to equipment associated with 23 the generation, control, transformation, transmission, 24 or distribution of the energy installation that is 25 under the exclusive control of an electric utility, or

204 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 lawfully designated agency. That is already existing 2 in 2018; I took that language directly from. So 3 there, there is a precedent for the IFC to reflect 4 these separation. Thank you. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Again, to microphone 6 four. 7 JAMES HOUSTON: This is James Houston, with 8 Southern Company. Yeah, I'm making a, a comment for 9 the motion. Yeah, it - we're getting down to - it 10 looks like we're trying to out-code one another. You 11 know, we - you know, who - 'My dad can beat your dad 12 up.' 'My code is better than your code,' kind of 13 situation. But I can't emphasize, you know, the 14 dangers associated with the - working in the electric 15 industry. And we understand it, I think better than 16 most. And our code is not going to go into effect for 17 the National Electric Safety Code revisions that 18 include ESS, until 2022. But I will extend my hand to 19 NFPA members to participate in that code revision. 20 And also, there's going to be opportunities, if we 21 choose to, to issue Tentative Interim Agreements. And 22 I could - in the interest of public safety, I could 23 see that happening. Thank you. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 25 please.

205 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ROBERT DAVIDSON: Robert Davidson, Davidson 2 Concepts, speaking for myself. So two items. One, 3 one, one of those issues comes down to how they're 4 regulated - how they're regulated. How they're 5 regulated is determined by the state, county, local - 6 the authority having jurisdiction; the commissions 7 they set up; the public - water public utilities they 8 set up. And they decide what the utilities have to 9 comply with. 10 JAMES QUITER: Just to clarify - for or 11 against? 12 ROBERT DAVIDSON: Against - sorry. They decide 13 that. Why would we put a blanket exemption in there, 14 when the AHJ may decide that, guess what, you need 15 building fire permits for this, for this installation. 16 And then we go and we look for the standard, and well, 17 the standard says it doesn't apply. And we had a full 18 discussion of that at the Committee over and over, 19 that depending on the jurisdiction you're in, the 20 states you're in, is how - the rules were different. 21 In some, they didn't have to comply with any of the 22 Building Fire Code requirements. In others, they did. 23 Right? The jurisdiction I was in for 22 years - fixed 24 facilities, which would include ESS, would - was 25 required to comply to Building Fire Code.

206 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Now, I heard a lot of testimony about 2 California. I was recently involved in a number of 3 projects out there. And those regulations actually 4 say they need the appropriate permits from the local 5 building and fire departments - under their building 6 and fire codes. All right? So that decision about 7 how it's going to apply, when, will be made by the 8 jurisdictions, based on the body of codes that they've 9 grabbed hold of to apply in their special cases. 10 That's a routine occurrence. All right? 11 It's not that we ignored the industry in the 12 work. We created dedicated use buildings based on 13 the, their input. We created remote use buildings 14 based on their input. And we put a bunch of 15 exemptions in there for the legacy lead acid storage 16 buildings, based on their input. So this went on from 17 - from beginning to end. So it wasn't that we're just 18 ignoring and saying, 'You're captured by this.' 19 And the last thing is, the gentleman who read 20 the language of the 2018 IFC, I'm glad he read it, 21 because those of you familiar with the NEC recognize 22 what he read is what was in the 2014 NEC. The 23 industry added energy storage systems to the 2017 NEC. 24 We did not pick that up and add that to the 25 International Fire Code, because we wanted ESS to be

207 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 captured. Thank you. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone one, 3 please. 4 FRED HARTWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fred 5 Hartwell, speaking for myself. I'm -- 6 JAMES QUITER: For or -- 7 FRED HARTWELL: Well, I'm in a bit of a -- 8 JAMES QUITER: For or against? 9 FRED HARTWELL: -- unique -- 10 JAMES QUITER: For or against the motion? 11 FRED HARTWELL: I'm in - speaking in favor of 12 the motion. I have a bit of a unique take on this, 13 from an electrical background, and 30 years on the 14 National Electrical Code Committee, and 35 years on 15 the Massachusetts Code Committee, most of that time as 16 the Secretary of that Committee. And what keeps me 17 awake at night from time to time is when proposals are 18 generated from whatever source, for whatever reason, 19 that I think will attract the attention of the 20 Legislature, or of the legal community, and interfere 21 with the orderly adoption and promulgation of the 22 National Electrical Code in my state. I think a lot 23 about this. 24 There's an old proverb that 'fences make good 25 neighbors' and I think it applies here. I think that

208 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 without this, I think we very much could impede the 2 orderly adoption of this standard. We will certainly 3 attract the attention of the investor owned utilities, 4 who have the resources to resist this. And I think we 5 have to just be very careful about invading the scope 6 of the National Electrical Safety Code on this. I, I 7 don't know where this ends, but I think there's a real 8 issue here very likely in terms of the adoptability of 9 this standard, without this provision. Thank you. 10 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two, 11 please. 12 THOMAS BRIDER (phonetic). Hopefully I do this 13 right. Thomas Brider, International Association of 14 Firefighters. I'd like to call the question. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yay. 16 (applause) 17 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 18 to call the question. I notice that there are a 19 number of people remaining at the microphones waiting 20 to speak, but we'll proceed with the vote on the call 21 of the question. Do we have a second? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 23 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 24 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the 25 bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in

209 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 2 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 3 your vote. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's not working. 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's frozen. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's frozen. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Clear to the bottom - to 8 call the question. 9 JAMES QUITER: Okay. I'm hearing a 'frozen' - 10 are there several? 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's not the motion. 13 Call the -- 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Call the question 15 (unintelligible). 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 18 JAMES QUITER: This is a - this is a call the 19 question motion. So you should not be voting on this 20 specific item. You should be scrolling down to the 21 bottom to find the 'call the question' vote. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 23 JAMES QUITER: Okay. We'll give you five more 24 seconds. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah.

210 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (laughter) 2 JAMES QUITER: Okay, voting is closed. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yay. 4 (laughter) 5 (applause) 6 JAMES QUITER: The results of the vote are: 7 548 in support; and 87 against. The motion has 8 passed. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) call 10 the question. 11 JAMES QUITER: Yes, the - yes, it had - the 12 motion was to call the question. That motion has 13 passed. That means we will proceed to the vote on the 14 main motion. 15 The motion on the floor is to Accept Public 16 Comment Nos. 912 and 454. To vote, touch the 'vote' 17 button. If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 18 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 19 you wish to vote against the motion and recommend the 20 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 21 vote. 22 Five seconds. 23 The voting is closed. Thank you. 24 The results of the vote are: 316 in support of 25 the motion --

211 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (applause) - 2 JAMES QUITER: -- recommending the text on 3 Screen One; and 280 oppose the motion, and recommend 4 this text on Screen Two. The motion has passed. 5 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 6 Certified Amending Motion 855-2. Microphone one, 7 please. 8 CHRIS SEARLES: Yes. Chris Searles, BAE 9 Batteries, USA; past Chair of the IEEE Energy Storage 10 and Stationary Battery Committee; and member of the 11 ESSB Safety Codes Working Group. And I would like to 12 move forward and make a motion to Adopt or Accept the 13 Identifiable Part - Identifiable Part, I'm sorry - of 14 Public Comment 410. 15 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 16 the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 17 Comment No. 410. Is there a second? 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 19 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 20 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 21 CHRIS SEARLES: The IEEE Energy Storage and -- 22 JAMES QUITER: Go ahead and introduce yourself 23 again - your - your -- 24 CHRIS SEARLES: Chris Searles, BAE Batteries. 25 JAMES QUITER: And for or against?

212 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 CHRIS SEARLES: I am for the motion. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 3 CHRIS SEARLES: The IEEE Energy Storage and 4 Stationary Battery Committee and the Safety Codes 5 Working Group represent the stationary battery 6 industry with the development and publication of over 7 27 industry standards. We propose that the scope as 8 outlined in Section 1.1 be changed to add the words, 9 'This scope includes - excludes' - I'm sorry - '...lead 10 acid and nickel cadmium batteries used in stationary, 11 standby power applications in the commercial and 12 industrial sector.' 13 Our reasoning is four-fold. First, we 14 understood the original intent of NFPA 855 was to 15 address safety issues with newer, emerging 16 technologies not previously used in a stationary 17 environment, especially lithium ion. Traditional lead 18 acid and nickel cadmium batteries have been included, 19 even though they are governed by other excellent codes 20 and standards. 21 Second, stationary lead acid batteries have 22 been in existence for over 100 years, with significant 23 improvements in their safety. IEEE Standards, NFPA 1, 24 IFC 2018, and other agency codes currently provide 25 updated safety guidelines for lead acid and nickel

213 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 cadmium batteries when used in traditional, standby 2 power applications. 3 Third, there are over 750,000 4 telecommunications, electric utility, and 5 uninterruptible power system sites installed in the 6 United States alone that have been operating safely 7 with lead acid and nickel cadmium batteries for 8 decades. 9 Finally, placing lead acid and nickel cadmium 10 batteries for standby applications in the same boat 11 with those of emerging technologies would be like 12 grounding all propeller aircraft when safety concerns 13 were identified with the 737 Max. There is some risk 14 associated with propeller aircraft, and sometimes an 15 accident occurs. But lumping them in with similar 16 requirements imposed upon newer, emerging passenger 17 jet technologies would be considered out of place. 18 At several of the sessions this week, efforts 19 were made to justify placing lead acid and nickel 20 cadmium batteries under 855, while admitting the 21 standard was developed in reasonable haste, and many 22 requirements were not backed up by actual experience 23 or data. 24 I would respectfully encourage the Membership 25 to carefully and realistically consider the proposed

214 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 amendment, and vote in favor of adopting it. It 2 directs the standard to the real problem at hand, 3 which is emerging energy storage technologies, 4 especially lithium ion. Thank you. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Biggins, would 6 you like to offer the Committee's position? 7 JAMES BIGGINS: Yes. First, Chris, I was in 8 most of those sessions, and I don't remember any of 9 those things that you said about, you know, being 10 directed at that - it's hastily crafted and all this. 11 The development of 855 was began in 2016, when 12 the Standards Council approved a request by NFPA - for 13 NFPA to develop a standard on stationary energy 14 storage systems. The Tech Committee worked diligently 15 to craft a standard that was built upon the 16 information both currently in NFPA 1 and NFPA 70, as 17 well as other standards, to develop a comprehensive 18 document to fill those gaps. 19 With respect to this motion, the Technical 20 Committee strongly believes that no energy storage 21 system, including lead acid and nickel cadmium 22 batteries installations should be exempt from the 23 requirements of 855 that directly affect the safety of 24 the public or first responders. 25 What the Technical Committee did to address the

215 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 concerns of the submitter was to provide exemptions in 2 Chapter Four of NFPA 855 for these systems installed 3 as UPS systems, switch gear and generating plant 4 control batteries for utilities, and as backup power 5 supplies for the telecom industry. This was done for 6 requirements pertaining to listing of the 7 installations to UL 95-40; revision of energy storage 8 management systems; identification of disconnecting 9 means; limitations of below grade or above grade 10 installations and structures; size and separation 11 requirements; fire protection system requirements; and 12 fire protection water supply requirements. 13 You know, the Committee was very diligent in 14 making sure that when these issues were brought to our 15 attention, that we did not do anything that would 16 require additional and potentially difficult 17 requirements on these systems. We do recognize they 18 are - have operated well for a number of years, but 19 they still do, do present a hazard, and 855 attempts 20 to address these issues. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, gentlemen. We have a 22 side discussion going on here. Give us a moment. All 23 right. With that, we will open up debate on the 24 motion. Please provide your name and affiliation, and 25 whether you are speaking in favor, or against the

216 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 motion. Microphone one, please. 2 WILLIAM CANTOR: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name 3 is William Cantor. I work for TPI, but I'm 4 representing the IEEE Energy Storage and Stationary 5 Battery Committee. I'm in support of the motion. 6 As was mentioned, there's approximately 750,000 7 lead acid and nicad sites, energy storage sites, 8 throughout the United States, that have been operating 9 for years under the current requirements in documents 10 such as the National Electric Code, and the Fire 11 Codes. The current scope would include the vast 12 majority of these sites. In fact, these type of sites 13 would be the majority of sites covered by this 14 document. 15 The current scope would, would add additional, 16 unneeded requirements, potentially tens of millions of 17 dollars' worth of cost, especially to the lead acid 18 industry. As the Chair mentioned, there - we did get 19 some exemptions in there, but they don't cover all the 20 requirements. And you know, doing some calculations, 21 we think there's probably about 100,000 sites that 22 still won't be exempt with those narrow exemptions. 23 And then there's a number of requirements that will 24 apply to all these sites that have no exemptions. And 25 that's a big concern for the industry - just for the

217 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 cost, with no reason that we think that are needed, 2 because these sites, as, as mentioned, have been 3 operating for a long time under current regulations. 4 Thank you. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone four, 6 please. 7 JUSTIN PERRY: Justin Perry, from Dominion 8 Energy, speaking for the motion. I think the Chair 9 summed it up very well when he discussed that lead 10 acid and nicad batteries have been operating well for 11 a number of years. There are legacy requirements in 12 both NFPA 1, and the IFC, that cover lead acid and 13 nicad batteries. And I would recommend that we revert 14 back to those regulations instead of NFPA 855, and 15 urge you to support this motion. Thank you. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 17 please. 18 HOWARD HOPPER: Howard Hopper, UL, speaking 19 against the motion on the floor. As Mr. Biggins 20 pointed out, this Committee has debated this 21 extensively, and we did specifically address lead acid 22 batteries at electric utility installations, at UPS, 23 and at telecom facilities. And so we all - we have a 24 number of requirements that specifically address lead 25 acid throughout the code. They're under requirements

218 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 for the installations, the technology specific 2 requirements, and a variety of different locations. 3 If you - if this motion is successful, you're 4 going to have lead acid excluded from the scope of the 5 standard, and yet you're going to have dozens of 6 references to lead acid throughout the, throughout the 7 code. So it's being done incorrectly. If what 8 they're trying to accomplish is to get those out, it's 9 being done incorrectly, and you're going to have 10 requirements that kind of make - break the code a 11 little bit there. 12 Every - the other concern we've had is that 13 historically, lead acid batteries have been used in 14 standby power, emergency power, and UPS applications, 15 okay. They - we, we know those applications. There's 16 a very acceptable level of safety for those. But now 17 they're starting to be used in energy storage system 18 applications, where now you're, you know, they have 19 different cycling, different periods of how they're 20 used. And the requirements in 855 and the 21 International Fire Code specifically address those new 22 uses of the - of, of these battery technologies. 23 Also, when you're talking about existing 24 installations, there's requirements. I mean, codes 25 apply as, as appropriate, as adopted to either new

219 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 installations, or existing installations. So I don't 2 think we're, you know, causing an undue burden and 3 hardship on this. So speaking against the motion on 4 the floor. Thank you. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone four, 6 please. 7 TIM MYERS: Tim Myers from Exponent, speaking 8 for the motion. I just wanted to reply to a comment 9 the Chair made about whether or not this was, this was 10 - standard was developed hastily. I - again, as I 11 stated earlier, I certainly appreciate all of the hard 12 work the Committee did. And, and they had a tall task 13 in front of them. But I just wanted to give you a few 14 statistics, or a few points to, to look at the 15 development of this standard. 16 I mentioned earlier, though, that this Scope 17 Statement received 40 public comments - four, zero. 18 All of those were rejected by the Committee. You can 19 look at the Second Draft Report, or the Public Comment 20 Report, and you'll see that a lot of those comments 21 were lumped together, and the Committee statements 22 about why they were rejected really have no relation 23 to the, the, the public comments. 24 Looking more generally at the, at this standard 25 - it received 534 public inputs; 875 public comments -

220 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 which doesn't show you that we're, we're converging on 2 consensus on this standard. Of, of those 875 public 3 comments, 844 were rejected. If you look at how many 4 revisions were made in the First Draft, it was 144; 5 166 in the Second. If you look - if you compare the 6 schedule of meetings for this committee, relative to 7 the published schedule for the committee, a number of 8 the meetings, particularly in the Second Draft, were 9 held after the deadline for having Second Draft 10 meetings. So you know, I think in a lot of cases, the 11 committee just didn't have the time to adequately 12 address a lot of the public input and public comments. 13 I'd welcome any of you to look at the Second Draft 14 Report, and I think you'll see that in many cases the 15 Committee statements don't really address the public 16 comments. Thank you. 17 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone five, 18 please. And I would like to keep comments related to 19 this particular item, rather than the overall process. 20 Microphone -- 21 JOHN ALLEGER (phonetic): Sure. 22 JAMES QUITER: -- five. 23 JOHN ALLEGER: That's John Alleger. I'm the 24 Battery and Fire Protection SME for Pico Energy. I'm 25 speaking for the motion.

221 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 So this came up as a situation to try to fix 2 the difference between energy storage systems, and 3 standby systems that the utilities use - two very 4 different systems, two very different purposes. In 5 the current document it refers to control of the 6 substations. It actually should be protection and 7 control, but it only had control. It would have been 8 nice for the code folks to have more folks having 9 utility background on the Committee - it would have 10 helped. 11 Now, this situation, you either - you were 12 given three options. You fix the scope; you add all 13 sorts of exclusions throughout the document; or you 14 change Table 1.3 under lead acid. Instead of 70 kw 15 hours, make it a hundred, make it 120 kw hours. If 16 you wanted a note saying that that was strictly for 17 standby, and not for ESS applications, none of this 18 would have been an issue. That was rejected by the 19 Committee as a recommendation I have made. It would 20 have been so much easier. 21 So to answer the gentleman with the hat - why 22 are we looking for exclusions, general exclusions? 23 Because of the possibility that standard lead acid 24 batteries, slightly larger than what's represented in 25 Table 1.3 would be requiring fire testing, and also -

222 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 yes, the gentleman from the - ha-- - there he is. All 2 sorts of requirements and, and costs required, because 3 a number wouldn't be changed in Table 1.3. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two, the 5 gentleman with the hat. 6 (laughter) 7 (applause) 8 ROBERT DAVIDSON: Robert Davidson, Davidson 9 Concepts, speaking against, for myself. So speaking 10 to there was just not enough time to do this, kind of 11 ignores the fact that a lot of baseline work had 12 already done and, and was pulled into the - during the 13 First Draft and the Second Draft, because in that 14 other code organization, there was a, a group of 40 to 15 50 people that wrote a bunch of requirements that went 16 into the 2018 International Fire Code, and went into 17 the 2018 NFPA 1. So we already had two fire documents 18 that already had extensive coverage of this topic. 19 And that's - and so that was helped, along with the 20 draft. So that work started in 2015. And many of the 21 people in part of that work ended up on 855, and 22 continue with that work, and more people got involved. 23 So to say it was all rushed and everything, and 24 just not enough time - no, there's a longer history 25 here, and there was a built up set of requirements

223 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 already in two fire codes, that were built upon. All 2 right. And many of the comments that, the changes 3 that came in, were responded to, and we did make those 4 changes. We responded to the industry for that. 5 Where is this threshold issue came up that was 6 just addressed to me - came out of the fire codes 7 already. That threshold already existed. How did the 8 threshold came up - they looked at the threshold in 9 the, in the fire codes - it's previously 50 gallons 10 for lead acid batteries. And they looked at that, and 11 what was the equivalent energy amount. That's what, 12 that's where that came from. All right? So I'm not 13 going to dispute the gentleman, as far as he'd rather 14 see it go up to a higher level, but there was a basis 15 on, in it, and that is already in both fire codes as 16 the threshold. And one of the things we attempted to 17 do with 855 is not write a document that was less, had 18 less coverage than both fire codes are already 19 requiring at this time. I urge you to vote against 20 the motion. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 22 one. 23 CHRIS SEARLES: Chris Searles, BAE Batteries, 24 and the Energy Storage Safety Codes Working Group, 25 voting - or recommend voting in favor of the motion.

224 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 It's important that the distinction be 2 clarified, that we're not saying that lead acid 3 batteries just totally be exempted cart blanche 4 through the whole standard. What we are saying, or 5 asking, is that the lead acid and nickel cadmium 6 batteries be exempted in the scope for standby, the 7 traditional standby power applications, which have 8 been addressed, which cover the almost one million 9 installations that exist across the country. 10 And the impacts within the standard, there are 11 unique things within the standard that are very good, 12 and will apply to the new, emerging technologies, and 13 perhaps even the so called, quote, unquote, "advanced 14 lead acid batteries". But all the document has 15 certain issues within it that really impact, very 16 negatively in our opinion, the existing standby 17 application market. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 19 discussion on Motion 855-2 to Accept an Identifiable 20 Part of Public Comment No. 410? Seeing none, Mr. 21 Chair, do you have any further comment? 22 JAMES BIGGINS: Yes, I do. First of all, with 23 respect to Mr. Searles' comments, the standard is not 24 retroactive. So it will not impact existing 25 recommend-- existing facilities. With respect to Mr.

225 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Myers' comment about the 534 first public - 534 public 2 inputs, and 875 public comments, and that we somehow 3 out of pocket rejected all of them - the Committee 4 created 144 First Revisions to the draft, based upon 5 the public inputs. The Committee further created 166 6 Second Revisions to the document, based upon the 7 public comments. Everything was reviewed. Everything 8 was considered. The Committee had an - probably an 9 unprecedented amount of guests allowed to come in, and 10 speak, and make - and be able to present their views, 11 including the submitter of this comment. 12 But after all that, the Committee did look at 13 what was presented, as far as the scope, and 14 determined that the scope as written and presented 15 right now for adoption is what is proper. And we ask 16 that the, this motion be rejected. 17 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before we 18 vote, let me restate the motion. The motion on the 19 floor is to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 20 Comment No. 410. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. 21 If you wish to vote in support of the motion, and 22 recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you 23 wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 24 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 25 vote.

226 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The voting will close in five seconds. 2 The voting is closed. 3 The results of the vote are: 239 in support of 4 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 282 5 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 6 Two. Therefore, the motion has failed. 7 Let's now proceed with the discussion on the 8 Certified Amending Motion 855-3. Microphone four, 9 please. 10 MICHAEL BUCKLEY: My name Is Michael Buckley, 11 representing EEI. I withdraw this motion. 12 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Motion 855-3 13 appeared in our Agenda. However, the authorized maker 14 of the motion, or the designated representative has 15 just notified NFPA that he no longer wishes to pursue 16 this motion. Therefore, in accordance with NFPA 17 Rules, Convention Rules at Section 2.7, the motion may 18 not be considered by the assembly, and is removed from 19 the Agenda. 20 We will now move on to the next motion, which 21 is 855-4. So we'll proceed with the discussion on 22 Certified Amending Motion 855-4. Microphone four, 23 please. 24 MICHAEL BUCKLEY: Michael Buckley with EEI. 25 Withdraw this motion, as well.

227 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Bear with me. I lost it. I 2 have it. Okay, bear with me. We - for the sake of 3 the record, we need to get things on the record 4 properly. 5 Next motion, 855-4, F-4, appeared in our 6 Agenda. However, the authorized maker of the motion, 7 or the designated representative just notified NFPA 8 that he no longer wishes to pursue this motion. 9 Therefore, in accordance with NFPA Rules, Convention 10 Rules at Section 2.7, the motion may not be considered 11 by the assembly, and is removed from the Agenda. 12 We will move - now move on to the next motion. 13 Let's proceed with the discussion on Certified 14 Amending Motion No. 855-5. Microphone four, please. 15 JAMES HOUSTON: Yes, my name's James Houston. 16 I'm with Southern Company, and maker of this motion, 17 and I withdraw it. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Motion 855-5 19 appeared in our Agenda. However, the authorized maker 20 of the motion, or the designated representative has 21 just notified NFPA that he no longer wishes to pursue 22 this motion. Therefore, in accordance with NFPA 23 Rules, Convention Rules at Section 2.7, the motion may 24 not be considered by the assembly, and is removed from 25 the Agenda.

228 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 We will now move on to the next motion. Let's 2 proceed with the discussion on Certified Amending 3 Motion 855-6. Looks like also microphone four. 4 PAUL HAYES: Thank you. My name is Paul Hayes. 5 I'm with American Fire Technologies, representing 6 myself, and I remove this motion. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Motion 855-6 8 appeared on our Agenda. However, the authorized maker 9 of the motion, or the designated representative has 10 notified NFPA that he no longer wishes to pursue this 11 motion. Therefore, in accordance with the NFPA Rules, 12 Convention Rules at Section 2.7, the motion may not be 13 considered by the assembly, and is removed from the 14 Agenda. 15 We will now move on to the next motion. 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Fifteen minute break. 17 JAMES QUITER: Okay. We are now going to take 18 a 15 minute break before we finish up 855. My watch 19 shows 1:25, so base it on 1:40. Thank you. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Very well. 22 (MUSIC) 23 (END OF PART TWO) 24 25

229 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 2 3 AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION OF 4 5 2019 NFPA TECHNICAL MEETING 6 7 THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2019 8 9 PART 3 10 11 12 (MUSIC) 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ladies and gentlemen, 14 please take your seats. The session is about to 15 resume. Thank you. 16 (background voices) 17 JAMES QUITER: Let's just go. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) will 19 you please take your seats. 20 JAMES QUITER: Yeah. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We're, we're about to 22 call the next motion. 23 JAMES QUITER: Please take your seats. I will 24 be starting in 30 seconds. 25 (background voices)

230 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Let's now proceed with the 2 discussion on the Certified Amending Motion 855-7. 3 Microphone four, please. 4 TIM MYERS: I am Tim Myers of Exponent, 5 Incorporated. I move to Accept Public Comment No. 6 138. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 8 the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 138. Is there 9 a second? 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 11 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 12 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 13 TIM MYERS: I'm speaking in favor of the 14 motion. 15 JAMES QUITER: And please identify yourself 16 again. 17 TIM MYERS: Tim Myers of Exponent, 18 Incorporated. The public comment I submitted adds a 19 description of the hazards mitigated by NFPA 855, to 20 the Purpose Statement, namely electrical, fire, and 21 explosion hazards. Those are the hazards that this 22 standard currently addresses. Without this change, 23 the standard just says hazards, which includes many 24 hazards not addressed by this standard. 25 Given the wide variety of technologies that

231 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 fall under the broad scope of the standard, it is 2 critical to spell out the types of hazards the 3 standard addresses so that users don't have a false 4 sense of security that other hazards are addressed. 5 For instance, the standard does not address 6 environmental or mechanical hazards posed by energy 7 storage systems. The standard covers flywheels, which 8 has significant mechanical hazards, but there's - 9 there's really no requirements related to that. 10 I also want to raise a procedural issue. 11 Section 448 of the Regulations Governing the 12 Development of NFPA Standards requires that the 13 Technical Committee consider, act, and comment on each 14 public comment during the Second Draft phase. In the 15 Committee's statement in the Second Draft Report, 16 there is no indication that this portion of my public 17 comment was considered; nor did the TC provide any 18 rationale why this portion of the public comment was 19 rejected. The Committee lumped my public comment into 20 a group of five public comments that were all rejected 21 with the same Committee statement. 22 My public comment was different than the other 23 comments with which it was lumped. My public comment 24 was the only comment to add electrical, fire, and 25 explosion hazards to the Purpose Statement. The

232 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Committee statement justifying the rejection of my 2 comment had nothing to do with my proposed hazard 3 language. It said, 'The term 'mitigating' is more 4 appropriate here, because the term 'minimize' is 5 already used earlier in the sentence. This is mostly 6 a grammatical change.' I, I welcome someone to 7 explain how that addresses adding electrical fire and 8 explosion. 9 I'm interested to hear what the reasoning is 10 that's given for not adding these words today. But as 11 I've described earlier, it's very clear that there are 12 many hazards that the standard does not address for 13 the wide variety of energy storage systems it covers. 14 And there are many hazards that are outside the 15 Technical Committee's scope, as defined by the 16 Standards Council. I urge you to accept this motion 17 that adds a description of the electrical, fire, and 18 explosion hazards mitigated by this standard. Thank 19 you. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Biggins, would 21 you like to offer the Committee's position? 22 JAMES BIGGINS: Yes, I would. The purpose of 23 NFPA 855 is to provide the minimum requirements for, 24 for mitigating hazards associated with energy storage 25 systems, irregardless of what the hazard may be, or

233 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 what particular energy storage technology is used. 2 Limiting the hazards sole, solely to electrical, fire, 3 and explosion hazards is too restrictive, and 4 overlooks other hazards associated with energy storage 5 systems, such as flow - the, the chemical hazards 6 associated with flow batteries. 7 Please note that the Committee made a conscious 8 decision not to address all energy storage systems in 9 this initial edition of the document. It would have 10 been far, far too much an overwhelming task. The 11 Committee made a very informed decision to focus on 12 the areas for which we wrote requirements, being 13 electrical - you know, battery systems, capacitors, 14 and fuel cells. The other chapters are there; they're 15 reserved, and they will be added to, once the 16 Committee, you know, re-enters the standards cycle. 17 Again, we did feel that, you know, limiting it 18 to just these three hazards is too restrictive, and 19 for that reason, the Committee did not decide to make 20 the change as proposed in your public comment. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Biggins. With 22 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 23 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 24 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 25 Microphone two.

234 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MATT PACE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is 2 Matt Pace, speaking for the International Association 3 of Firefighters, and against the motion. As we just 4 heard from the Chair, the scope of this initial draft 5 - this is the first publication of 855 - it's a 6 difficult balance to address a emerging technology, 7 and be prescriptive - or be - to provide code that is 8 not too prescriptive. 9 There's a lot of technology that's changing on 10 a, on a continual basis. One perfect example that 11 would just blow this proposal out of the water would 12 be flow batteries. Flow batteries do - they, the 13 biggest - one of the biggest hazards of flow batteries 14 is a spillage of a caustic electrolyte. So some could 15 interpret that in saying that this scope would not be 16 addressing that whole technology. 17 So the intention, I think is fine by Mr. Myers. 18 But I think that narrowing it down does not serve us, 19 or the community we're trying to provide guidance to. 20 I urge everyone to vote against this motion. Thank 21 you. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 23 four. 24 TIM MYERS: So I think one of the key issues 25 here - and one of the key issues with the standard, is

235 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 its scope really does cover a wide variety of energy 2 storage systems, but the requirements that are 3 currently in it are really limited to very specific 4 technologies in the electrical, fire, and explosion 5 hazards. 6 JAMES QUITER: Sorry. We missed identifying 7 yourself and your, and your position. 8 TIM MYERS: I'm sorry. I'm Tim Myers from 9 Exponent, and I'm speaking in front - or - in favor of 10 the motion. And so like I said, there's a disconnect 11 in that the scope includes a lot of different 12 technologies, but the requirements are really very 13 specific to a limited number of technologies, and 14 covering the electrical, and fire, and explosion 15 hazards. 16 I think what I'm asking here is something very 17 simple to just provide an accurate description of the 18 hazards that are actually covered by the standard, so 19 that people don't have a false sense of security. 20 Electric - you know, flywheels are still covered by 21 this standard. The chapter that's specific of them 22 has absolutely no requirements. You would have to 23 comply with general requirements in the standard, that 24 really aren't that well related to flywheels, but, but 25 they're part of the standard. As the standard

236 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 progresses and they include additional requirements, 2 and address additional kind of hazards, this Purpose 3 Statement could be expanded to provide an accurate 4 description of what's currently in the standard. 5 Again, I'd, I'd request that you vote in favor of the 6 motion. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three. 8 HOWARD HOPPER: Howard Hopper, UL, speaking 9 against the motion. As a Committee member, but I'm 10 not speaking on behalf of the Committee, I recall 11 discussing this with the other comments. And the one 12 - the, the discussion I recall is, among other things, 13 we talked about hazardous materials, and we talked 14 about toxics. If I might read Section 4.4.1 there, 15 ESS cannot release toxic, or highly toxic gasses above 16 PEL levels during normal charging, discharging, and 17 operation. Toxic gas is not captured by electric, 18 fire, or explosion, and yet that is within the scope. 19 So if we wish to put a laundry list in the 20 Purpose Statement, we need to make sure it reflects 21 all the items that are addressed in the standard. 22 Thank you. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 24 six. 25 MARCELO HERSCHEL: Marcelo Herschel, GBH

237 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 International, speaking for NAFRA, and in opposition 2 to the motion. I'm very concerned about this, this 3 type of limitation in the scope or purpose, because 4 standards - we start in certain direction; things 5 start moving; things start changing as we expand, as 6 we understand more and more. And when we then have to 7 change the scope of a standard because new 8 technologies, new information has come around, that 9 causes a lot of havoc, and we get a lot of opposition. 10 'Oh, no, you don't want to change the scope of the 11 standard. The - your, your standard was specifically 12 to address this, that, and the other.' 13 You just heard from Howard Hopper that the 14 standard addresses things like toxics; that is not in 15 there. You, you heard from one of the other speakers, 16 the standard addresses spillage, which is not on 17 there. So this is extremely limiting, and will 18 prevent the expansion of, and further development of 19 the standard. Please vote against the motion. Thank 20 you. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two. 22 Sorry, microphone four. 23 TIM MYERS: Again, this, this is not the scope 24 statement -- 25 JAMES QUITER: Wait - again, with your name

238 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 first. 2 TIM MYERS: Oh, sorry. Tim Myers from 3 Exponent, speaking in favor of the motion. This is 4 not the scope statement. This is the Purpose 5 Statement, so some of the comments that were just made 6 aren't really accurate. 7 With every fire, toxicity, you're going to have 8 toxic problems. That's always a hazard - that, that's 9 covered with fire. And you know, again, I, I still 10 haven't heard an explanation of why a public comment, 11 or, or why the Technical Committee didn't provide a 12 comment on my public comment that actually addressed 13 the issues that I brought up. Thank you. 14 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any other 15 further discussion on Motion 855-7 to Accept Public 16 Comment No. 138? Seeing none, Mr. Chairman, would you 17 like to say something? 18 JAMES BIGGINS: Well, yes, I'd like, like to 19 apologize to Mr. Myers if we didn't, you know, explain 20 our reasoning in rejecting the public comment. But 21 with respect to this motion, you know, adding these 22 three terms - electrical, fire, and explosion - would 23 be too limited, and I urge it's rejected. Thank you. 24 JAMES QUITER: And it looks like I missed 25 somebody at microphone three.

239 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JACK LYONS: Just a - sorry, just a point of 2 order. Just a point of order. Jack Lyons from NEMA. 3 Should both of those say 1.2? 4 JAMES BIGGINS: Yes. 5 (laughter) 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thanks. 8 (unintelligible) 9 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 10 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The motion 11 on the floor is to Accept Public Comment No. 138. To 12 vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 13 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 14 Screen One, vote 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 15 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, vote 16 'No'. Please record your vote. 17 Five seconds. 18 The voting is closed. 19 The results of the vote are: 109 in favor, and 20 recommend the text on Screen One; 399 against the 21 motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two. 22 Therefore, the motion has failed. 23 Let's now proceed with the discussion on the 24 Certified Amending Motion 855-8. Microphone four, 25 please.

240 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 TIM MYERS: I am Tim Myers of Exponent. I move 2 to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 3 75. 4 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion on the floor 5 to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 6 5. Is there a second? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 8 JAMES QUITER: I hear a second. Please proceed 9 with a discussion on the motion. And again, start 10 with your name, affiliation, etc. 11 TIM MYERS: Again, I am Tim - Tim Myers of 12 Exponent, and I'm speaking in favor of the motion. I 13 am one of four individuals who each independently made 14 this same motion. I would explain - like to - I would 15 like to explain one of the reasons I have made this 16 motion, and I hope the other submitters will also be 17 given time to explain their reasoning. 18 If you accept this motion, it will return the 19 maximum energy storage system group size to 250 20 kilowatt hours, the value that was contained in the 21 First Revision of NFPA 855. During the Second 22 Revision, the value was reduced by a factor of five, 23 from 250 to 50 kilowatt hours. By my count, that 24 revision passed by a single vote on the ballot. 25 There was no indication in the First Draft

241 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Report that such a significant change was being 2 considered, and the public has not had the ability to 3 comment on this significant change. 4 The Second Revision received 13 negative votes 5 from Technical Committee members, who provided reasons 6 for the negative votes, including - the change is 7 arbitrary; no valid safety or technical reason has 8 been provided for the change; the change was 9 significant and should be considered new material, 10 which is now allowed during the Second Draft revision 11 period. 12 During the First Draft, only grammatical 13 changes were made to Section 4.6.2. During the First 14 Revision, this section received 11 public inputs, none 15 of which proposed lowering the group size threshold 16 from 250 to 50 kilowatts. Most of the public inputs 17 proposed increasing the threshold above 250 kilowatt 18 hours, or removing it. There was no indication that 19 the Committee was considering decreasing the group 20 size. 21 I want to raise a procedural issue. Section 22 44831(A) of the Regulations Governing the Development 23 of NFPA Standards states that a Second Revision should 24 not be made when it would introduce a new concept that 25 has not had public review by being included in a

242 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 related input, or First Revision as shown in the First 2 Draft. 3 As described by several Technical Committee 4 members who voted against this Second Revision, the 5 revision introduced a material concept that has not 6 been reviewed by the public, and was therefore not 7 consistent with the spirit of the regulations. 8 I expect that some of the other submitters of 9 this CAM will explain how this change may make 10 installations less safe, rather than making them more 11 safe. I urge you to vote in favor of this motion, to 12 return the maximum group size to 250 kilowatt hours. 13 Thank you. And I, I hope the other submitters will 14 now have a chance to provide their reasoning. 15 JAMES QUITER: They will, after Mr. Biggins 16 makes a comment. 17 JAMES BIGGINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 18 Technical Committee revised the maximum stored energy 19 level downward, from 250 kilowatt hours to 50 kilowatt 20 hours, based upon heat release rates exhibited by 21 lower energy amounts when, when subjected to large 22 scale fire testing. This was done in consideration of 23 the size of the fire, the heat release, and also in 24 consideration to the safety of firefighters and first 25 responders. Additionally, the energy level is

243 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 consistent with the current limits contained within 2 NFPA 1, Chapter 52 in the IFC. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Biggins. With 4 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 5 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 6 speaking in support or against the motion. Microphone 7 one. 8 WILLIAM CANTOR: Thank you, Mr. Chair. William 9 Cantor, TPI, representing IEEE Energy Storage and 10 Stationary Battery Committee, in support of the 11 motion. 12 The reduction of group sizes in Second Revision 13 75 from 250 kilowatt hours to 50 kilowatt hours is 14 significant, and is, and is new material that has not 15 been scrutinized by the public. There is no First 16 Revision that addresses a change to this number. The 17 Public Comment referenced in Second Revision 75 18 references First Revision 148. FR 148 did not change 19 this number; thus, this is new material. 20 The reduction of group sizes from 250 to 50 is 21 a significant change, with no justification other than 22 it was in the IFC 2018 edition. While it is in the 23 IFC 2018 edition, the IFC completely - IFC 2018 24 completely exempts lead acid and nicad chemistries for 25 this limitation, while NFPA 855 does not offer this

244 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 complete exemption. 2 The justification for Second Revision 75 states 3 that the impact is negligible, when in fact it will 4 have a major impact on the stationary battery 5 industry. It will limit 48 volt systems to about a 6 thousand amp hours; 125 volt systems to 400 amp hours; 7 and 480 volt UPS systems to 833 watts per cell. 8 It is estimated over 100,000 existing lead acid 9 and nicad stationary battery sites that do not meet 10 the current exemptions, that have strings that will 11 exceed these limits, yet have operated safely for 12 decades. Yes, the standard is not retroactive, but 13 thousands of these sites are replaced every year, and 14 thousands of these sites are added every year. 15 There were very strong objections to the Second 16 Revision within the NFPA 855 Technical Committee, 17 mainly based on these particular reasons. Thank you. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 19 six. 20 NICK WARNER: My name is Nick Warner with 21 Warner Energy Storage Solutions, speaking on behalf of 22 myself. However, I am a member of the NFPA 855 23 Committee, as well as the ICC Working Group, and 24 several UL Standards. Having conducted numerous -- 25 JAMES QUITER: For or against the motion?

245 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 NICK WARNER: -- large scale tests -- 2 JAMES QUITER: Excuse me - for or against? 3 NICK WARNER: Sorry, I speak against the 4 motion. Having conducted numerous large scale tests 5 on lithium ion batteries, ranging from several hundred 6 watt hours, which is several thousand times smaller 7 than what we're speaking of here, as well as having 8 conducted explosion modeling, it's my concern that 9 even small systems potentially below 50 kilowatt 10 hours, but certainly above 50 kilowatt hours pose 11 significant risks that should require large scale 12 testing to quantify. 13 In addition to the comments by the gentleman a 14 minute ago, several of the telecom systems and 15 utilities systems have already been exempted by 16 language in the code. So the number of systems that 17 are going to be impacted by this in the future should 18 be drastically reduced. 19 Excuse me - however, there is additional data 20 and information to suggest, from events that have 21 happened in the past few weeks and few months, that 22 systems in this 50 to 250 kilowatt hour gap just pose 23 a significant threat that should not be ignored. And 24 while the Committee has gone back and forth on the 25 number several times, as the industry has continued to

246 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 evolve and the information becomes available, that 2 should be considered in real time. Thank you. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 4 four. 5 NED WEST: Thank you. I'm Ned West, with 6 Southern Company, speaking for Motion 855-8. We 7 believe that 855 will become the standard for behind 8 the meter battery storage systems, so we want to get 9 it right. I'll focus on three technical reasons for 10 restoring the group size limit to 250 kilowatt hours - 11 chemistry, complexity, and compliance. 12 NFPA's neutral stance on lithium battery 13 chemistry types has an unintended and unfortunate 14 consequence in the case of this group size limit. The 15 draft 855 Standard makes no distinct between the more 16 volatile NMC chemistry, and the safer LFP chemistry, 17 which has better thermal stability, and is more abuse 18 tolerant. Differences between the heat release rate 19 and burn properties of NMC and LFP are described in 20 this Technical Report by NFPA's Research Foundation 21 on, on Large Scale Fire Testing. 22 The 50 kilowatt hour group size limit works 23 against ESS safety by favoring NMC over LFP, and it's 24 because the NMC has a higher nominal cell voltage of 25 3.7 volts, versus a lower 3.2 volts for LFP cells.

247 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ESS suppliers will tend to choose the more hazardous 2 NMC batteries over the safer LFP because of that 3 inherent cell voltage difference, in order to get 4 under the 50 kilowatt hour limit. 5 Next, complexity - behind the meter ESS are 6 typically thousand-volt strings that feed an inverter 7 to provide 480 volt AC to the customer premises. So 8 with groups under 50 kilowatt hours, it's going to 9 take two to four groups connected in series to make a 10 thousand volt string. Multiple battery groups in 11 separate enclosures will be managed by a single BMS. 12 You see, the standard doesn't define a group. And the 13 standard doesn't say that each group must have its own 14 BMS. So breaking a string into multiple separate 15 groups adds complexity. Power, control and 16 communications between the groups must be field wired. 17 And field wiring is harder to QA than factory wiring. 18 Last, compliance assurance. NFPA rightly 19 incentivizes large scale fire testing to promote safer 20 ESS designs. However, battery suppliers and ESS 21 integrators should be assured that the time and 22 expense of successful UL 9548 testing will allow a 23 listed, 250 kilowatt hour, ESS product to be 24 consistently employed across many jurisdictions. The 25 standards shouldn't make an AHJ liable for

248 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 interpretation of a large scale fire test report to 2 approve group sizes over 50 kilowatt hour for a UL 3 listed -- 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 5 NED WEST: -- battery storage system. We 6 should restore the 250 kilowatt hour limit for reasons 7 of safer chemistry, less complexity, and compliance 8 assurance by voting yes on this motion. Let's get it 9 right. Thank you. 10 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 11 three. 12 HOWARD HOPPER: Howard Hopper, UL, speaking 13 against the motion. Also, a Committee member, though 14 it's - but I'm not speaking on behalf of the Committee 15 here. 16 You know, the Committee debated this 50 versus 17 250 all the way through the process. We, we discussed 18 it during the first cycle, the public input cycle. We 19 discussed it during the public comments cycle. One 20 reason it came up is because the 50 kilowatt hours is 21 the value that's gone into the 2021 International Fire 22 Code. It was vetted through that process, and as is 23 mentioned, it's also a referenced in NFPA 1. 24 So the 50 kilowatt hour value that we're 25 discussing does not limit ESS above that energy level.

249 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 What it does is it says those need to be subjected to 2 a large scale fire test. And the whole purpose of 3 this section of both the IFC and 855 is it's - it's 4 the size and separation requirements, because there's 5 uncertainty with the fire propagation properties of 6 all battery chemistries, and, and especially the new 7 battery chemistries. So the concept here is if you go 8 above these limits, and you can get a significant fire 9 event from a 50 kilowatt hour battery unit or string - 10 this just says you have to do large scale fire 11 testing. 12 Also with some of the technologies such as 13 lithium ion systems when they're indoors, you want to 14 do the large scale fire testing because you make get 15 flammable gasses off those if they go into thermal 16 runaway. And then the code and - requires explosion 17 prevention - or pardon me, explosion control. Well, 18 you can't determine the gas flow rates for - to comply 19 with NFPA 68 or 69, without doing large scale fire 20 testing. So if you allow up to a 250 kilowatt hour 21 single unit - and you can have multiple units within a 22 fire area - a single unit, if that goes into thermal 23 runaway and you have not conducted a large scale 24 testing on that, you could have a very catastrophic 25 event. And that's the problem with energy storage

250 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 systems, compared to some other technologies out 2 there, is the potential for a catastrophic event. 3 Thank you. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 5 four. 6 TIM MYERS: This is Tim Myers from Exponent, 7 speaking for the motion. I just wanted to comment on, 8 on a few statements that I've heard. 9 One that I've, I've heard a few times today is 10 that this limit was lowered to force people to have to 11 do large scale fire testing on smaller units. I, I 12 find that really interesting, because if you look at 13 the Second Revision report and read the Committee 14 statement, it says, 'The impact is negligible, since 15 large scale fire testing is required for lower levels 16 anyway, to generate date for deflagration prevention, 17 and correct fire protection levels.' 18 So when they - they wrote the Second Revision, 19 they said this was a negligible issue because you 20 would already have to do fire testing. Today what's 21 being communicated to us was, this was actually done 22 to force smaller units to have to do fire testing. 23 Thank you. 24 JAMES QUITER: Microphone three. 25 BEN DITCHA (phonetic): Ben Ditcha from Global.

251 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I'm a Committee member on 855, although I'm not 2 speaking for that group. I am speaking against the 3 motion. The report the gentleman held up earlier on 4 the Foundation Report - I wrote the Basis Report for 5 that. I conducted those large scale fire tests. 6 In the world of lithium ion batteries, energy 7 storage capacity is fuel. If your system gets larger, 8 you're going to have a bigger fire. And in that 9 report, you'll find that 50 kilowatt hour systems, 10 both iron phosphate, with was the LFP, and nickel 11 manganese cobalt oxide, which is the NMC, both 12 represent significant hazards at 50 kilowatt hours. 13 That's not to say the systems can't be made 14 safe, and they can't be adequately protected. We need 15 the fire test. This criteria here makes you conduct 16 the large scale fire test. It's the only way we can 17 make sure that these systems are going to be safe. 18 So I urge you, with that, to vote against the 19 motion. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 21 one. 22 EDDIE GEDRY (phonetic): My name's Eddie Gedry, 23 representing myself, and I would like to call the 24 question, please. 25 JAMES QUITER: Okay. There is a motion from

252 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the floor to call the question. I noted a person at - 2 remaining at a microphone waiting to speak, but we'll 3 proceed with the vote on the call of the question. Do 4 we have a second? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 6 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 7 to vote on this motion, please remember to scroll down 8 to the very bottom of the tablet to vote - not to vote 9 on this item. If you wish to vote in support of the 10 motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the 11 motion, touch 'No'. Please record your vote - and 12 remember, this is the vote on calling the question. 13 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 14 The voting is closed. 15 Results are: 546 in, in support of the motion 16 to call the question; 75 against the vote - the motion 17 to call the question - which returns us to the primary 18 motion. 19 So before we vote, let me restate the motion. 20 The motion on the floor is to Reject an Identifiable 21 Part of Second Revision No. 75. To vote, touch the 22 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 23 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 24 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 25 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please

253 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 record your vote. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 3 working. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, it is now. 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 6 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Did it go back to 7 working? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Yeah. Yes. 9 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Thank you. I need to not 10 move so fast. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 12 JAMES QUITER: The voting will be closed in 13 five seconds. 14 The voting is closed. 15 The results of the vote are: 287 in support of 16 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 17 326 against the motion, and recommend the text on 18 Screen Two. Therefore, the motion has failed. 19 Well, let's now proceed with the discussion on 20 Certified Amending Motion 855-9. Microphone one. 21 PAUL HAYES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is 22 Paul Hayes. I'm with American Fire Technologies, and 23 I am representing myself. My motion is to Accept 855- 24 9, which is - Accepts Public Comment 283. 25 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There is a motion on

254 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 283. Is there 2 a second? 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 4 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 5 proceed with the discussion on the motion - again, 6 starting with -- 7 PAUL HAYES: Okay. 8 JAMES QUITER: -- identifying yourself. 9 PAUL HAYES: Thank you very much. The first 10 thing I want to do is acknowledge Jim Biggins, and 11 those that served on this Committee, because it was a 12 -- 13 JAMES QUITER: So do - do - do -- 14 PAUL HAYES: This is not an easy task 15 (unintelligible) 16 JAMES QUITER: Start with the Paul Hayes, and 17 who you represent -- 18 PAUL HAYES: All right. 19 JAMES QUITER: -- first, and -- 20 PAUL HAYES: All right. 21 JAMES QUITER: -- your position on the motion. 22 PAUL HAYES: Paul Hayes. I represent myself, 23 and -- 24 JAMES QUITER: And you're -- 25 PAUL HAYES: -- from American Fire

255 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Technologies. 2 JAMES QUITER: For or against the motion? 3 PAUL HAYES: For the motion. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 5 PAUL HAYES: All right. So, to acknowledge Jim 6 and his actions. This was no easy task. I am a Fire 7 Protection Engineer with 35 years. I do not sit on 8 855. I do sit on 850. I am not representing any of 9 those Committees, but I had the honor and the pleasure 10 of sitting through 12 days, and 1200 public comments. 11 What I want to do is reference Arizona. It was 12 a very unfortunate event. We wish those that were 13 injured, the best. As I've said several times, no 14 asset is worth a life, but it does provide an 15 opportunity for us to learn, and we've got to share 16 best practices in this industry. I have seen a big 17 shift. I have seen them working towards best 18 practices, and it is something as a, as a group, we 19 have to share. 20 There is no silver bullet at this point in 21 time, but I am recommending that we provide gas 22 detection as a standard for lithium ion. This 23 language is out of the - the public comment is out of 24 the IFC Gas Detection. As the 855 is currently 25 written, it provides gas detection under normal

256 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 conditions, such as sealed lead acid batteries; 2 directs you to 868 and 869 for explosion and control - 3 neither which specifically address lithium ion 4 batteries. As we've seen, they can and will create an 5 explosive environment. I believe the technology code 6 advances, we will see further guidance, and we need to 7 provide that guidance to the AHJs in the industry. 8 Unfortunately, this PC was written about a year 9 ago. It's not perfect. I recognize that there's some 10 conflicts that this creates. But I believe providing 11 improvement now is better than waiting, because of 12 what we can see, and possibly can happen in the 13 industry. 14 Explosions are very real possibilities with 15 lithium ion batteries. Large scale testing, 9540A, 16 have both shown that lithium batteries gas during 17 thermal runaway and propagation. It can, and has 18 created events, explosive events. So 68 and 69, 19 again, don't specifically address this. 20 Suppression systems can actually make the 21 systems worse. They can reflash, they can continue to 22 cascade in an oxygen starved environment. This motion 23 reflects the 2018 gas -- 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 25 PAUL HAYES: -- detection chapter in IFC. We

257 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 have recognized that it, the - right now as it's 2 written, is missing some information. Again, I want 3 to see this addressed sooner, as opposed to later. 4 But in discussions with the Committee, I believe a TIA 5 may be forthcoming anyway. So if we don't move 6 forward on this one, I believe it needs to be 7 addressed in this publication. 8 So I think outside of that, we will see some 9 changes in this code. So I'm asking that you support 10 this, and it may need some adjustments as we move 11 forward. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 12 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Biggins, would 13 you like to offer the Committee's position? 14 JAMES BIGGINS: Yes, Mr. Chair. The Technical 15 Committee incorporated much of this public comment in 16 Second Revision 79, which combines Sections four - 4.9 17 and 4.12 from the First Revision of NFPA 855, into 18 Section 4.9 of the Second Revision. Specifically, 19 Section 4.9.3.2 addresses requirements for gas 20 detection. The gas - the Committee did not agree on 21 all items proposed in the public comment, but did 22 require in Section 4.9.3 that the gas detection system 23 be designed to activate the mechanical exhaust 24 ventilation system when the level of flammable gas 25 detected in the room, walk-in unit, enclosure,

258 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 container, and cabinet exceeds 25% of the LFL. The 2 mechanical exhaust system shall remain on until the 3 flammable gas detected is less than 25% of the LFL. 4 The gas detection system shall be provided with a 5 minimum of two hours of standby power, and the failure 6 of the gas detection system shall enunciate a trouble 7 signal at an approved central station, proprietary, or 8 remote station service, or one approved at a 9 constantly attended on site location, in accordance 10 with NFPA 72, or at an approved (unintelligible) 11 location. 12 The Technical Committee did not have enough 13 information to determine if de-energizing the battery 14 charger was an appropriate action, at 25% of the LL 15 (phonetic), for all types of energy storage systems. 16 So we did not take action on that. 17 The Technical Committee also did not believe it 18 was appropriate to exclude stationary battery systems 19 less than 50 volts AC/60 volts DC, as these 20 installations are also capable of providing flammable 21 gases. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Biggins. With 23 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 24 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 25 speaking in support of, or against the motion.

259 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Microphone three, please. 2 ROBERT DAVIDSON: Robert Davidson, Davidson's 3 Concepts; a member of the Committee but not speaking 4 for the Committee, speaking opposed to the language - 5 mainly because it, it just won't work at this time 6 with the standard. The proposed language starts out, 7 'Where required elsewhere in the code,' rooms 8 containing. We actually don't mandate gas detection 9 anywhere. In the case of the mechanical ventilation, 10 it's an option. You can design your space with your 11 exhaust ventilation running continuously, or if you 12 don't want to do it continuously, you have the option 13 to go to gas detection, and then all the safety 14 factors that the Chair just recited would kick in. So 15 there's no trigger there. 16 In the case of toxics, we have a restriction 17 against toxics exceeding PELs. But there's no 18 requirement for mandatory gas detection. How they 19 engineer the system, how they provide for that, is up 20 to them. So it says where required, but once I get 21 into the standard, it doesn't say to do it. 22 So if we were to put it in, and somebody was to 23 try to apply it to the mechanical gas monitoring - 24 well, if the mechanical gas monitoring senses the LEL 25 increase, it puts the exhaust on, and keeps it down to

260 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the acceptable level. That's - that would be the 2 normal operation for that space. However, this would 3 also require that normal operation to initiate the 4 distinct audio/visual alarms, the transmittal on their 5 approved location, de-energize the battery charger, 6 when actually, it's doing what he wanted - we want it 7 to do, to maintain that space below the LEL. 8 So as drafted and as written, this will not 9 work with the existing language in the code. Some 10 major rewrites would have to occur, which - this isn't 11 the time to do that; the next cycle would be the time. 12 I urge you to vote against the motion. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Also microphone 14 number three. 15 CURTIS ASHTON: My name's Curtis Ashton, and I 16 am the Chair of the Energy Storage and Stationary 17 Battery Committee of the IEEE; also, the Co-Chair of 18 the IEEE Ashray (phonetic) Working Group for 19 Ventilation and Thermal Management of Stationary 20 Batteries. While I appreciate the intent of -- 21 JAMES QUITER: And speaking for, or against the 22 motion? 23 CURTIS ASHTON: I'm speaking for the motion. 24 Thank you. 25 JAMES QUITER: For the motion, or against?

261 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 You're at the -- 2 CURTIS ASHTON: Sorry. 3 JAMES QUITER: -- against mic. 4 CURTIS ASHTON: Against the motion. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 6 CURTIS ASHTON: Against the motion. Thank you. 7 Nervousness overtook me. So I appreciate the intent 8 of the submitter in trying to handle a problem with 9 lithium ion batteries. However, it's overly broad 10 because it doesn't specifically exclude other 11 technologies. So lead acid batteries, and nickel 12 cadmium batteries, for example, gas small amounts of 13 hydrogen. However, Ashray (phonetic) and the IEEE 14 specifically recommend against using gas detection for 15 those technologies because of - it's maintenance 16 intensive, and causes a lot of false alarms that get 17 ignored. And so the amount of gas produced is 18 incredibly tiny, and so it's overkill to require gas 19 detection. 20 And so in my opinion, this just takes a step 21 too far in, in encompassing all technologies, rather 22 than, than covering the technology that it needs to 23 cover. Thank you. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 25 discussion on Motion 855-9 to Accept Public Comment

262 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 No. 283? Mr. Biggins? 2 JAMES BIGGINS: Nothing, Sir. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Before we vote, let 4 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 5 Accept Public Comment No. 283. To vote, touch the 6 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 7 motion, and recommend this text on Screen One, touch 8 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 9 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 10 record your vote. 11 Five seconds. 12 The voting is closed. 13 The results of the vote are: 100 in favor of 14 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 15 439 against the motion, and recommend the text on 16 Screen Two. Therefore, the motion has failed. 17 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 18 Certified Amending Motion 855-10. Microphone one, 19 please. Scrolling laptop time. 20 PAUL HAYES: Too, too - too many comments, Mr. 21 Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Paul 22 Hayes, American Fire Technologies. I represent 23 myself. My motion is for 855-10 to Reject Second 24 Revision 100. My comment, a quick comment, the 25 Committee (unintelligible) --

263 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Let - let's get a second, and -- 2 PAUL HAYES: I, I'm going to withdraw the 3 motion. 4 JAMES QUITER: Oh, okay. The let's not -- 5 PAUL HAYES: All right. 6 JAMES QUITER: -- take a second. 7 (laughter) 8 PAUL HAYES: So I don't want to - what I would 9 like to, to acknowledge is that this chapter needs 10 work, but it is being currently addressed through a 11 TIA and a Task Group process. So therefore, I will 12 withdraw this motion. 13 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Hayes. 14 Motion 855-10 appeared on our Agenda. However, the 15 authorized maker of the motion has notified NFPA that 16 he no longer wishes to pursue this motion. Therefore, 17 in accordance with NFPA Rules, Convention Rules at 18 Section 2.7, the motion may not be considered by the 19 assembly, and is removed from the agenda. We will now 20 move on to the next motion. 21 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 22 Certified Amending Motion No. 855-11. Microphone 23 four, please. 24 TIM MYERS: I am Tim Myers of Exponent. I move 25 to reject Second Revision No. 173.

264 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion on the floor 2 to Reject Second Revision No. 173. Is there a second? 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 4 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 5 proceed with the discussion on the motion - again, 6 starting with your name. 7 TIM MYERS: I am Tim Myers of Exponent, 8 speaking in favor of the motion. This motion would 9 remove Annex F from NFPA 855. The Annex is an 10 approximately 28-word summary of the history of 11 requirements for energy storage systems in a variety 12 of current, historical, and future codes and 13 standards. 14 I am moving to reject this Second Revision, 15 because the public has not had the opportunity to 16 review or comment on this language. There was no 17 indication in public, or Committee inputs, or in the 18 First Revision, that such an annex would be created. 19 It was also not a public comment. It was added as 20 Second Revision - my understanding it was, was 21 actually added at a meeting that was held after the 22 deadline for Second Draft meetings - but it was added 23 as a Second Revision, and was first available for the 24 public to review when it was published in the Second 25 Revision Report on February 28th of this year. The

265 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 only opportunity the public has had to comment on this 2 is during the NITMAM phase. 3 As described by the Technical Committee members 4 who voted against this standard revision, the revision 5 introduced material concept that had not been reviewed 6 by the public, and was therefore not consistent with 7 the spirit of regulations. 8 Section 4.4.9.2 of the regulations governing 9 the development of NFPA Standards stated that Second 10 Revisions must be related to material that has 11 received public review during the input stage, either 12 through the submission of public input, Committee 13 input, correlating input, or through First Revisions. 14 Section 4.4.8.3.1(A) states that a Second 15 Revision should not be made when it would introduce a 16 concept that has not had public review by being 17 included in a related input or First Revision, as 18 shown in this First Draft. 19 As described by Technical Committee members who 20 voted against the Second Revision, the revision of 21 adding a new annex which will be used to - as 22 described by Technical Committee members who voted 23 against this Second Revision, the revision of adding a 24 new annex which will be used to interpret the meaning 25 of draft NFPA 855 was not consistent with the spirit

266 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 of the regulations. 2 Even though this is in the annex material, and 3 not a requirement, it is important for it to go 4 through the standard-making process to ensure that it 5 is accurate. Users, enforcers, and other parties 6 often refer to annex material to understand and 7 interpret the requirements within the body of the 8 standard. If the material is important and needs to 9 be in the standard, it should go through the proper 10 standard making process in the next revision cycle, or 11 be introduced through a TA. I urge you to support 12 this motion to remove Annex F. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Biggins, would 14 you like to offer the Committee's position? 15 JAMES BIGGINS: Yes. I would first like to 16 speak to - this is the second time Mr. Myers has said 17 that the Committee met beyond the dates. The 18 Committee worked within the dates on the custom 19 schedule that we were assigned by the Standards 20 Council and Standards Administration. So that is a 21 false statement, and I would appreciate you not 22 misleading the voting members. 23 Secondly, the Technical Committee decided to 24 develop this annex material as an aid to the users of 25 the document, including system developers, owners,

267 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 AHJs, and the Fire Service, in order to provide, 2 provide all parties with an understanding of how the 3 various codes and standards, including NFPA documents, 4 such as NFPA 70, and NFPA 1, the IFC - the IF Codes, 5 and the UL Standards all work together to provide 6 guidance in this area. 7 The development of the annex is a direct result 8 of the approximately 100 public comments on Chapter 9 One of the First Draft of 855 on the scope, purpose, 10 application, and retroactivity sections of the 11 standard, where it became clear to the Technical 12 Committee that many of the submitters did not 13 understand the history of the codes and standards that 14 apply and cover energy storage systems. The annex is 15 informational, does not contain it - or introduce any 16 new requirements for these systems. Thank you. 17 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Biggins. With 18 that, we will open up debate on the motion. Please 19 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 20 speaking in support of, or against the motion. 21 Microphone six, please. 22 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 23 International, speaking for NAFRA, and against the 24 motion. As I've said in, in a different context 25 today, I am the technical contact for ASTM E136, the

268 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 standard for testing for non-combustibility of 2 building products. 3 We have a very extensive appendix - we call it 4 appendix in ASTM, which is the equivalent of Annex 5 here in NFPA - we have an extended appendix on the 6 history of the concept of non-combustibility, and how 7 the test methods have evolved over time. I have found 8 - I resort to looking at that quite frequently. In - 9 a couple of years ago, a proposal went in front of the 10 Committee to see whether we wanted to delete that 11 annex - that appendix, because history's - it doesn't 12 matter. There was overwhelming vote against that. 13 Why? Because the Committee members felt that the 14 history of how you get to a certain thing is a very 15 important background. 16 There is no application of that as a mandatory 17 part of the document. It just brings the, the members 18 up to speed as to how this was developed, and what it 19 means. The requirements are in the body; the 20 appendix, or the annex in this case, is there for 21 information to let people know why we're doing this, 22 why this has been developed. Please vote against the 23 motion. Thank you. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone four, 25 please.

269 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 TIM MYERS: So I just want to clarify a, a 2 statement that I made. 3 JAMES QUITER: Your name first. 4 TIM MYERS: Tim Myers from Exponent, speaking 5 in favor of the motion. I've compared the dates that 6 the meetings were held, to a document that's published 7 on the NFPA website that says - it's Custom 2020, NFPA 8 855 Master Schedule. The last date for the Second 9 Draft meeting listed on that document is before the 10 date of the last two meetings for NFPA 855. 11 And so I want to respond to, to the last 12 comment. I'm not saying that it's not a good idea to 13 have history, a description of history in an annex. 14 What I am opposed to is this being added without the 15 public having any opportunity to comment on it, and to 16 propose edits to it. This literally was - has not 17 shown up in public input, public comment - anywhere. 18 There was nothing that someone could actually look at, 19 and provide feedback on until this Second Draft Report 20 was published. Thank you. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 22 three, please. 23 ROBERT DAVIDSON: Robert Davidson, Davidson 24 Concepts, also a member of the Technical Committee, 25 but not speaking for the Committee, speaking in

270 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 opposition to the motion. 2 So this actually came out of the First Draft 3 meeting, public meeting. This is - this information 4 is what we used to guide us in the work - to explain 5 why things are already in the Fire Codes, and why 6 we're referring to that language - how they - how we 7 got there, how it developed. It was after all of that 8 work was done going into the First Draft, that it was 9 decided that, you know what, we should take all this 10 language, and put it, put it in an annex so everybody 11 with this document (unintelligible) can understand how 12 the Committee got to where they got. And it was 13 assigned to a Work Group, and a Work Group worked on 14 this, and commented on it, and then it was brought 15 forward with those edits at the Second Draft meeting. 16 So that there wasn't public notice - well, the 17 people participating in the process knew it was 18 happening. But more importantly, this is just 19 extracts out of the codes. These are public 20 documents. Those documents exist, and had public 21 participation. Anybody could have read them. The, 22 the process they went through changes, all posted 23 electronically. People can get at it and read it. 24 This, this is public information. We didn't write 25 code. We just grabbed the reference materials out

271 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 there so people understand that history, and how we 2 got to where we are. I would urge you to vote against 3 the motion. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 5 one, please. 6 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, speaking for myself. 7 Call the question, please. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. He's speaking 10 for all of us (unintelligible). 11 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 12 to call the question. Do we have a second? 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 14 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 15 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the very 16 bottom of your tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in 17 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 18 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Remember, this 19 motion is only to call the question. Please record 20 your vote. 21 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 22 The voting is closed. The results of the vote 23 are: 560 in support of the motion to call the 24 question; 33 against the motion to call the question. 25 The motion has passed, which returns us to Item 855-

272 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 11. 2 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The 3 motion on the floor is to Reject Second Revision No. 4 173. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish 5 to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 6 text on the screen, on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 7 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 8 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 9 vote. 10 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 11 The voting is closed. 12 The results of the vote are: 105 in support of 13 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 14 405 against the motion, and recommend the text on 15 Screen Two. Therefore, the motion has failed. 16 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 17 Certified Amending Motion 855-12. Microphone number 18 one, please. 19 CHRIS SEARLES: Chris Searles, BAE Batteries 20 USA, past Chair of IEEE Energy Storage and Stationary 21 Battery Safety Codes Working Group. I'm Secretary of 22 the latter. At the consensus request of the ESSB 23 Safety Codes Working Group, I make a motion that NFPA 24 855 as currently proposed be sent back to Committee 25 for revision.

273 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 2 the floor to Return the Entire NFPA Standard. Is 3 there a second? 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 5 JAMES QUITER: There is a second. Please 6 proceed with the discussion of the motion. 7 CHRIS SEARLES: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well -- 8 JAMES QUITER: And again, start with your name, 9 and affiliation. 10 CHRIS SEARLES: Chris SEARLES, BAE Batteries, 11 USA. 12 JAMES QUITER: Speaking for the motion -- 13 CHRIS SEARLES: While there are many good 14 points - and I am in favor of this motion. While 15 there are many good points contained within NFPA 855, 16 and we appreciate the difficult work of the Committee, 17 and with the number of lithium ion fires in the energy 18 storage space now becoming known, a need for 19 regulation via code compliance is in order for lithium 20 ion batteries. 21 However, 855 as written has several issues that 22 do need to be reexamined and corrected before 23 releasing as a viable standard. 855 should 24 concentrate its focus on lithium ion, and newer 25 commercially available types of emerging technology

274 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 battery systems exclusively, while existing codes and 2 standards continue to address the evolution of lead 3 acid and nickel cadmium batteries. 4 In addition, there are several other major 5 concerns that should be addressed by the 5 - 855 6 Committee members, in our opinion. They've shown 7 earlier, there are Second Draft changes that the 8 public has not had a chance to comment on. Number 9 two, the carve-outs included in the Second Revision 10 are not universal, and address only a portion of the 11 affected markets while perhaps unintentionally 12 providing an unintended license for lithium ion 13 batteries to skirt around some intended requirements. 14 We have already addressed the fact that there 15 were 875 public comments submitted, and 37 were 16 accepted, to our knowledge. So it's obvious that a 17 significant number of relevant issues have not been 18 adequately addressed. 19 Certain thresholds - number four - threshold 20 values for volume, and kilowatt hour calculations are 21 impractical for all technologies. 22 Number five, requiring UL listing for all 23 batteries, especially lead acid and nickel cadmium 24 batteries is not practical, due to the significant 25 number of variations in the chemistries. It would add

275 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 tremendous costs not only to manufacturers, but to 2 users, as well. 3 It is our understanding there are clauses being 4 introduced into NFPA 1, and the IFC Code that would 5 require those codes to retroactively include 855 6 sections verbatim, which could prevent active public 7 comment, or Committee action in these instances. 8 In our opinion, adopting 855 in its present 9 form is a serious disservice to major parts of the 10 industry and public. The exceptions and carve-outs 11 are evidence of an attempt to minimize this damage. 12 The standard really needs to be sent back to 13 Committee for substantial revision, for each of the 14 technologies involved, to bring back a solid and very 15 meaningful standard. Thank you. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Biggins, would 17 you like to offer an opinion? 18 JAMES BIGGINS: Yes, Mr. Chair. The 19 development of NFPA 855 began in 2016, when the NFPA 20 Standards Council approved a request to NFPA to 21 develop a standard on stationary ESS. It was 22 submitted on behalf of the California Energy Storage 23 Alliance, in order to address gaps in regulation 24 identified through workshops. 25 In the three years since, the Tech Committee

276 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 was formed, a draft standard was developed. Nine 2 meetings were held in person; various task groups 3 working on teleconferences; acted on 531 public - 4 public inputs on the draft; 875 public comments on the 5 First Revision. As Mr. Searles said, you know, he 6 only saw that 37 were accepted. In NFPA code process, 7 in the process, when you accept a, a public comment, 8 you accept it as-is, as proposed. So yes, we accepted 9 - only accepted 37 public comments as proposed. But 10 we - with - out of the other five hundred and some 11 comments, the Committee created 166 Second Revisions 12 to the document, based upon the - these comments from 13 the - from the public. So to say that, you know - the 14 impression that we didn't, you know, pay attention to 15 what was being told to us is complete incorrect. 16 Irregardless, the Committee worked diligently 17 to craft a standard built upon the information in NFPA 18 1, NFPA 70, the other standards such as the, the I 19 codes, you know - other product standards such as 20 those developed by you all. And we worked to develop 21 a comprehensive document to fill those gaps left by 22 these documents, to provide a comprehensive document 23 which could be looked at by all - not only here in the 24 US, but this document will probably receive a lot of 25 interest in other parts of the world, such as China,

277 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Korea, and other areas where these installations are 2 going in, and they have no guidance, and they are 3 looking to us for this type of document. 4 The Technical Committee strongly believes that 5 NFPA 855 has accomplished the goals set forth by the 6 Standards Council, and asks you to vote against this 7 motion. Thank you. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 9 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your 10 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 11 support of, or against the motion. Microphone four, 12 please. 13 TIM MYERS: For those of you that haven't heard 14 my name before, I'm Tim Myers from Exponent, and I'm 15 in - speaking in support of the motion. First, I 16 would like to thank the Technical Committee for all of 17 their hard work. I do really appreciate it. 18 Unfortunately, I don't believe there has been adequate 19 time to consider and develop 855. The NFPA Standards 20 process allows a motion and return - to return the 21 first edition of standard to the Committee for further 22 development. 23 With my minimal allotted time, I will focus on 24 some of the key problems with the current draft of 25 855. You have all heard - you have already heard

278 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 disagreement between experts on some issues with the 2 standard. I will highlight additional issues. 3 The current scope of NFPA 855 is overly broad, 4 and there is debate on which industries and types of 5 occupancies should be included. One key difference 6 between 855 and NFPA 1, and the IFC is that in 855, 7 Annex material to the Threshold Quantities Table 1.3 8 states that you should aggregate the energy storage 9 capacity of the - in the entire fire area. This has a 10 consequence of requiring very large rooms, like this 11 room, with many small, distributed batteries to comply 12 with the NFPA 855, and be treated the same as lithium 13 ion energy storage systems with large quantities of 14 batteries concentrated in a small area. As an 15 example, the aggregate capacity of batteries in the 16 voting iPads in this room today has exceeded the 17 threshold quantity in NFPA 855. 18 Consider how many stationary batteries are in 19 large fire areas, like the room we are in, the Expo 20 area downstairs, a warehouse, big box stores, data 21 centers, or large office spaces. In these types of 22 rooms, there are often small backup batteries, and 23 emergency lights, the fire alarm control units, and 24 other appliances. The aggregate energy capacity of 25 these batteries would make these types of large fire

279 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 areas fall under NFPA 855. 2 In contrast, NFPA 1 specific states in the 3 Annex material that it is not intended to regulate 4 equipment with integral standby power systems below 5 the threshold amounts, including these specific 6 examples. 7 These types of large rooms also can contain 8 laptops, appliances, consumer products, and other 9 battery containing devices in a stationary 10 configuration, that would fall under the standard. 11 These types of occupancies have not been involved in 12 the standards making process, and are not the real 13 hazard that needs to be addressed. 14 There are other points that I'd like to make, 15 that maybe I can come back and address later. But I 16 urge you to support this motion to return the standard 17 to Committee. I believe it is important that we get 18 this first edition correct so that it provides valid 19 information to stakeholders. If we get it wrong, 20 incorrect information will propagate to other 21 standards, and it will be difficult to correct in the 22 future. Thank you. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 24 six. 25 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH

280 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 International, speaking for NAFRA, in opposition to 2 the motion. I urge you to disapprove the motion. 3 The, the previous two speakers said the, the NFPA 855 4 is not perfect. Well, hallelujah - what standard, 5 what code is perfect - 6 (laughter) 7 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: -- particularly the first 8 edition. When is ever a code perfect? 9 (applause) 10 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: That's why we're here, all 11 the time, to keep revising them and improving them. 12 But if we're going to start throwing away every time 13 we have something that's not perfect, we'll never get 14 anything through. 15 This is a really important exercise to get a 16 problem that we know exists, and is being highlighted 17 by some serious accidents that happened all over the 18 world. Please allow this document to come to 19 publication so we can start having a method to address 20 these problems. Oppose the motion. Thank you. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 22 one. 23 CURTIS ASHTON: Curtis Ashton, Chair of the 24 IEEE Energy Storage and Stationary Battery Committee, 25 in favor of the motion. Just to follow on a little

281 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 bit about the aggregate capacity. A lot of people 2 talk about - have talked about laptops, and the 3 aggregate capacity of laptops. I'd like to bring a 4 more real world example of a stationary battery. Both 5 Google and Facebook have large data centers with 6 distributed power. And about every 19 inches, there's 7 a very tiny battery about the size of a laptop 8 battery. It's a lead acid battery, and it would be 9 covered under this standard, under its existing 10 language. And so I think there's unintended 11 consequences. And I - I'm amazed that this Committee 12 kicked out a standard in three years. It was an 13 incredible amount of work. I've written standards 14 that take over 10 years to provide, to come out with 15 a, a large group of people, and a large interested 16 audience. So the work they did is amazing, but I just 17 think it's not quite ready for prime time. 18 One other example of how it's not quite ready 19 for prime time - and I agree with Marcelo's comment 20 that it, it's not going to be perfect the first time 21 out. But I don't think you can have unintended 22 economic consequences that are large, when you already 23 know the answer and you can easily avoid them. 24 Everyone knows that not all lithium ion chemistries 25 are created equal. Some are safer than others.

282 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Lithium titanite, as far as I am aware, there's never 2 been a documented fire with lithium titanite. Lithium 3 phosphate is a relatively safer lithium ion chemistry. 4 And so basically, I guess the point I'm trying 5 to make is the standard is overly broad in certain 6 areas, and it will cause burdensome economic 7 consequences a battery technology that is very safe, 8 such as the Google data center that I talked about, or 9 the lithium titanite chemistries that are out there. 10 So I urge acceptance of this recommendation that this 11 be returned to Committee for further work to further 12 refine the standard. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone four, 14 please. 15 RYAN MCMORROW: Ryan McMorrow with NextEra 16 Energy, speaking in favor of the amendment. I, too, 17 would like to commend the work of the 855 Committee. 18 This was an incredible amount of work. And I also 19 would like to comment that I can personally attest to 20 this Committee's commitment to reaching out to and 21 understanding as much as they possibly could, and 22 gaining information from the industry as they could. 23 And so certainly appreciated those efforts, and the 24 opportunities I've had to speak with you guys. 25 However, this - 855 as it reads now does not

283 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 add a lot of value, or add, add a lot of additional 2 information relative to the NFPA 1 that's already been 3 passed, nor from the International Fire Code. It also 4 doesn't take away a lot. As far as what it adds, and 5 what it takes away to the existing standards, here is 6 not really a lot of actionable changes to how we would 7 go and design an energy storage system based on 855, 8 versus the NFPA 1, or the International Fire Code. 9 One of the areas where it does expand on those 10 requirements is on ventilation. And as information is 11 continuing to come out at a, a more and more rapid 12 pace after some of the events that have happened 13 around the world, we don't have good information 14 detailing what the appropriate rate of ventilation 15 should be for these energy storage systems, and 16 specifically the concern being that we may actually 17 make things worse by adding ventilation. And I think 18 it's that engineering detail, and those engineering 19 studies that need to be allowed to conclude, and 20 allowed to be incorporated into this standard in order 21 to add a significant amount of value, and become the 22 global standard for energy storage systems. 23 If I look at the design of substations for, you 24 know, independent power producers, understanding 25 utilities are now exempted; but as an independent

284 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 power producer, if I build a substation, I'm now going 2 to be designing my substation to make sure that the 3 backup battery systems that provide protection and 4 control, are less than 50 gallons. That requirement 5 is completely arbitrary. There's no guidance for it. 6 But if that 50 gallon requirement is necessary in 7 order to meet an exemption, then I have to put fire 8 sprinklers in the middle of the desert, in a solar 9 facility. 10 So I would urge you to accept the motion to 11 send this back to the Committee. I think the 12 Committee is very talented, and with an additional 13 time, they'd be able to incorporate detailed 14 engineering information, and make this a much, much 15 better standard. Thank you. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 17 please. 18 HOWARD HOPPER: Howard Hopper, UL, speaking in 19 opposition to the motion to turn, return this to 20 Committee. I've got to admit, what I'm hearing is 21 kind of what I'd term as a lot of red herrings. We 22 already discussed that laptop ESS is not considered - 23 or laptops lithium ion batteries are not considered 24 ESS by the definition of energy storage systems. So 25 they're not going to contribute to any sort of

285 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 quantity of ESS you'd have to consider in an area. 2 Also, there was discussion about, 'Well, we may 3 not have really looked at a lot of different battery 4 technologies, and these are...' - you know, I heard that 5 one technology is safe. Well, we've - we set up the 6 855, which is very similar to the 2021 IFC, to have 7 technology specific criteria. If you can come to the 8 Committee and show your, your technology has a good 9 safety performance area, then we'll address that in 10 the code. And we did that for a nickel technology 11 right during the process. They brought forward some 12 data that they, they performed acceptably. So with 13 855 in place, we had a vehicle to be able to evaluate 14 that, and determine what protection criteria you need 15 for that technology, versus not having it. 16 So - and, and 855 is almost identical to the 17 protection concepts that are in the 2021 edition of 18 the International Fire Code which will eventually be 19 adopted probably in over 40 states in the country. So 20 saying these requirements aren't correct, you're going 21 to have the same requirements being enforced. And we 22 know of certain - I've heard of certain jurisdictions 23 that are looking at adopting those before the 2021 24 effective date. 25 So I think what you have is anyone saying this

286 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 is not ready for prime time, that it's incomplete, 2 it's not well thought out - we've been working on this 3 - the various working groups covering ESS, both on the 4 ICC side, and NFPA, we've been building on each 5 other's work since, since 2015. And right now we have 6 a platform in place that has good, enforceable 7 criteria. It has technology specific requirements, 8 and it addresses issues like not having water supply 9 out in the desert. That's a specific exemption for 10 dedicated use facilities in a remote location. We 11 specifically recognize that you're not going to have 12 water supply out there. So it's addressed. So I 13 would urge you to keep the - keep the - not return 14 this to Committee; allow it to go forward, so that 15 then we can start from this point forward. If 16 revisions are needed, we have a good basis to work on 17 those. Thank you. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone five, 19 please. 20 JOEL HAYES: Yes. Joel Hayes, in support of 21 the motion, from NantEnergy. Just like to make a 22 couple of points. 23 So comments that this, this NFPA 855 is not 24 perfect, and I appreciate all the effort that's gone 25 in in NFPA 855. And I agree it's not perfect, and it

287 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 can, it could use improvement. I think a lot of the 2 pushbacks comes because of the, the implications and 3 impact to the industry, and the expense, and 4 disruption that it will cause. It's one thing to put 5 forward an imperfect standard, saying we'll improve 6 it. It's another to put forward an imperfect standard 7 that's going to have major impact, and disruption 8 until it can be improved. I think we need to keep 9 that in mind. 10 A lot of reference has been made to the IFC 11 2020, saying that it's just a simple adoption of their 12 standards. It has been very clear that there's call- 13 outs in the IFC, like with some of the safer 14 chemistries, like lead acid and nickel cadmium, that 15 are not in 855, that are at least not adequately in 16 855, especially in relation to the size of the system. 17 It, it's very clear from the discussion that 18 855 has been written substantially towards lithium 19 ion. If that's the intention, then it should be more 20 clearly stated what applies to lithium ion, and what 21 does or not apply to the aqueous chemistries, such as 22 nickel cadmium, lead acid, etc. You, you're using a 23 one size fits all to apply this standard to 24 substantially lithium ion installations. And when you 25 discuss the dangers and the safeties, everybody says

288 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 lithium ion. 2 I think the other thing that's been obvious 3 from the contentious comments and discussion is that 4 there doesn't seem to be an adequate input from the 5 broader industry - the utilities, the users, some of 6 the, the energy storage systems used in buildings. So 7 I am for the motion that this should go back to the 8 Committee to be reconsidered, and come up with a more 9 perfect product sooner, that could be used in the 10 industry. 11 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two, 12 please. 13 MATT PACE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm Matt 14 Pace, representing the International Association of 15 Firefighters, speaking against the motion. 16 It's, it's not very common that Marcelo and the 17 Fire Service are standing at the same mic. 18 (laughter) 19 (applause) 20 MATT PACE: This is a critical standard to get 21 published. We are planning on getting right back 22 together to work out some of these, these bumps. But 23 if you notice the screen that was being displayed 24 during our breaks, one of the images up there was a 25 very large scale, utility sized energy storage, with

289 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the statement, 'We make the world safer together.' If 2 this is not published, we'll be going backyards years 3 in providing a level of safety for the most common 4 electrical chemical battery being installed today - 5 lithium ion. 6 I agree, we have a lot of work to do to make it 7 as perfect as possible. But it is an excellent 8 standard, as it stands right now, to provide a very 9 high level of safety that does not exist. I urge you 10 to vote no. Thank you. 11 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone one, 12 please. 13 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, representing myself. 14 Motion to call the question. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 16 (applause) 17 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 18 to call the question. I notice that there are a 19 number of people remaining at microphones, waiting to 20 speak. But we'll proceed with the vote on the call of 21 the question. Do we have -- 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I, I -- 23 JAMES QUITER: -- a second? 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I rise to a point of 25 order. Given the number of people that are standing

290 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 in line to speak, can we continue? 2 JAMES QUITER: No. This is a non-debatable 3 issue. We take the vote, and then we find out what 4 happens. 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 8 JAMES QUITER: Do we have a second? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 11 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 12 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the very 13 bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in 14 support of the motion, which is to call the question, 15 touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, 16 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 17 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 18 The voting is closed. 19 The results of the vote are: 548 yes, in 20 support of the motion to call the question; and 112 21 against the motion to call the question. The motion 22 to call the question has passed, which brings us back 23 to 855-12. 24 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The 25 motion on the floor is to Return the Entire NFPA

291 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Standard. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you 2 wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend 3 the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 4 vote against the motion, and recommend the text on 5 Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 6 The voting will close in five seconds. 7 The voting is closed. 8 (applause) 9 The results of the vote are: 142 in support of 10 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 11 468 against the motion, and recommend the text on 12 Screen Two. The motion has failed. 13 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 855? 14 Seeing none, we will move on to the next documents. 15 Thank you, Mr. Biggins. 16 JAMES BIGGINS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 (applause) 18 JAMES QUITER: Only 53 left. 19 (laughter) 20 JAMES QUITER: The last report under 21 consideration is that of the Correlating Committee for 22 the National Electrical Code. Here to present the 23 Report is Correlating Committee Chair, Michael 24 Johnstons of NECA, Bethesda, Maryland. The Report, 25 that is the First and Second Draft Reports, is located

292 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 on the Document Information Page for NFPA 70 on the 2 NFPA website. All Certified Amending Motions are 3 contained in the NFPA Technical Meeting (Tech Session) 4 Agenda, and will be displayed behind me on the screen 5 as they are under debate. 6 We have several National Electrical Code Chairs 7 that will be stepping down due to the tenure policy. 8 They are: Michael Johnston, NEC Correlating Committee 9 Chair; Mark Hilbert, Panel 2; Nathan Phillips, Panel 10 5; Larry Cogburn, Panel 8; Dave Humphrey, Panel 9; 11 Julian Burns, Panel 10; Larry Todd, Panel 15; Tom 12 Moore, Panel 16; Donny Cook, Panel 17; and Bobby Gray, 13 Panel 18. Please join me in thanking all of these 14 Chairs for their leadership. 15 (applause) 16 JAMES QUITER: Mr. Johnston, will you present 17 the Chair Report. 18 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. 19 Chair, ladies and gentlemen, the Report of the 20 Correlating Committee on the National Electrical Code 21 is presented as found in the NEC First Draft Report, 22 and the NEC Second Draft Report for the 2019 annual 23 revision cycle. The Correlating Committee and panels 24 have published a First Draft, and Second Draft Report 25 consisting of revisions to NFPA 70, the National

293 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Electrical Code. The revisions were submitted by 2 letter ballot of the responsible panels. The reports 3 and ballot results can be found on the Next Edition 4 tab of the Document Information Page for NFPA 70, at 5 www.nfpa.org/70Next. 6 Mr. Chair, I move for Standards Council 7 issuance, the Committee's Report on NFPA 70. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Mr. Johnston. Let's 9 now proceed with the discussion on the Certified 10 Amending Motion on NFPA 70-1. Microphone four, 11 please. 12 DANIEL MIKAT: Good afternoon. I am Daniel 13 Mikat. I represent Toyota Motor North America, and 23 14 other automotive manufacturers, the Alliance of 15 Automakers, Global Automakers, and Society of 16 Automotive Engineers. I move to Reject an 17 Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 7891. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There is a motion on 19 the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 20 Revision No. 7891. Is there a second? 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 22 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 23 proceed with the discussion on the motion. And again, 24 repeat your name, and affiliation first. 25 DANIEL MIKAT: Thank you. I am Daniel Mikat,

294 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 from Toyota Motor North America, and again I represent 2 23 other automotive manufacturers, the Alliance of 3 Automakers, Global Automakers, and Society of 4 Automotive Engineers. And I'm speaking in favor of 5 the text revision indicated in 70-1. 6 So this text was made in order to protect 7 premises electrical systems from reverse energy flow 8 from a vehicle, through an electrical vehicle supply 9 equipment. However, the text under 90-2, line 6, has 10 the potential of creating confusion in the automotive 11 industry, and whether the scope includes onboard power 12 outlets as power export equipment. 13 An onboard power outlet in the vehicle can't 14 connect to the premises, and therefore present no 15 safety concern to premises or infrastructure. The 16 automotive manufacturers are deeply committed to high 17 quality and safe function of the power outlets on the 18 vehicles. The concerns with the text on line 6 is 19 that interpretation might include outlets that will 20 never be connected to premises or infrastructure. 21 Further, the following section, in 625.60 22 specifically lists requirements for on vehicle power 23 sources that can't be connected to infrastructure. 24 Including requirements for automotive applications is 25 in direct conflict with the Scope Statement in 90-2,

295 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 which indicate that automotive vehicles are excluded 2 from this scope. It's not sensible to include 3 conflicting language in this document, where 4 automotive applications for exporting power are 5 included in line 6, but excluded in 90-2. 6 This interpretation is not in keeping with the 7 real intention of the code-making panel, and as such, 8 should be stricken as indicated in the motion on the 9 screen. Thank you. 10 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 11 you like to offer the panel's position? 12 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Under 13 its responsibilities for scopes within the NEC, the 14 Correlating Committee reviewed revisions to the scope 15 of 90.2(A). The Correlating Committee found no 16 conflicts or correlation issues in either revision 17 that resulted in the 2020 NEC development process. 18 And I'd like to defer to microphone two, to the Chair 19 of Code Panel 1, who handles Article 90 in the code - 20 Kenneth Boyce. 21 KENNETH BOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm Ken 22 Boyce, Principal Engineer Director at UL LLC, and I 23 have the privilege of serving as the Chairman of NEC 24 Code-Making Panel 1. I speak in opposition to the 25 motion.

296 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 CMP 1 took action to add a new phrase to the 2 scope of the NEC in Section 90.2(A) to clearly 3 indicate that V2X (phonetic) installations used to 4 export electric power from vehicles to premises 5 wiring, or for bidirectional current flow, are indeed 6 covered under the scope of the NEC. 7 In the First Draft stage, the panel supported 8 this concept, but deemed that there was no need to add 9 the statement, because these installations are already 10 under the scope of the NEC, based on 90.(A)(3) 11 regarding the supply of electricity. 12 In the Second Draft stage, the panel 13 reconsidered the need for enhanced clarity, based on 14 the public comment, and added the new phrase, as 15 90.2(A)(6). All returned votes were in the 16 affirmative, reflecting the panel's strong alignment 17 on this issue. 18 The explicit inclusion of these installations 19 in the scope of the NEC correlates to the actions 20 taken by CMP 12 for Article 625. It also correlates 21 to the longstanding position of CMP 1 that these types 22 of electrical applications are covered by the NEC. 23 The purpose of the NEC, as clearly stated in Section 24 90.1(A) is, quote, 'The practical safeguarding of 25 persons and property from hazards arising from the use

297 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 of electricity.' End quote. 2 The inclusion of these types of interconnected 3 electrical applications in the purview of the NEC was 4 overwhelmingly reinforced by CMP 1 several cycles ago, 5 in affirming that the use of portable generators to 6 provide power to electrical systems and equipment is 7 covered under the scope of the NEC. As electricity 8 export technologies are increasingly being deployed in 9 vehicles for various uses by the public, the vehicles 10 essentially function as portable generators. 11 The NEC comprises a carefully coordinated 12 system for safety of electrical supply and usage, 13 including consideration for topics such as overcurrent 14 protection, ground fall protection, and receptacle 15 requirements. Electrical devices and utilization 16 equipment are designed and certified, based on the 17 expectation of that type of coordinated protection 18 being provided. 19 Code-Making Panel 1 clearly supports that the 20 safety of these vehicle electrical power export 21 applications is under the scope of the NEC, and acted 22 decisively to specifically clarify that - again, to 23 provide the practical safeguarding of persons and 24 property from hazards arising from the use of 25 electricity. Thank you.

298 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 2 five. 3 JIM TARCHINSKI: Good afternoon. My name is 4 Jim Tarchinski. I represent SAE International, and I 5 would like to speak for the motion on the floor. 6 First, let me say that I also work for General 7 Motors, and I am part of Code-Making Panel 12 for the 8 NEC. I, I think we should vote for this motion on two 9 primary grounds. First, the second part of the phrase 10 for bidirectional current flow - that already covers 11 equipment that's unidirectional, so I think that would 12 already be covered, as long as it's connected to the 13 grid. 14 The second main issue I have is the use to 15 export electric power is overly broad. It would 16 include five volt outputs, or 12 volt outputs, which 17 is not in the interest of safety. There is no known 18 need to cover low power devices like that. And 19 therefore, you should reject - I'm sorry. You should 20 vote for this motion, to remove Item Six from this 21 list. Thank you. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 23 two. 24 JOHN KOVACHIC (phonetic): Thank you, Mr. 25 Chairman. I'm John Kovachic, with Underwriters

299 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Laboratories, and I speak representing UL, and I'm 2 speaking against the motion. 3 This issue resides in the electric vehicle 4 acting and serving as a branch circuit, but - but 5 without being held to the same NEC rules as other 6 branch circuits. There is a concern with any 7 certified equipment, UL or any third party 8 certification, when such equipment is connected to an 9 electric vehicle, and what effect this has on the 10 certification of that equipment. For example, an 11 appliance is protected by the overcurrent devices in 12 the electrical infrastructure of the building where 13 installed, when certain fault conditions occur. When 14 connected to an electric vehicle, that same appliance 15 may not be provided with the same or equivalent 16 protection, when those same fault conditions which can 17 occur, do occur. 18 During the Code Panel 12 Second Draft meeting, 19 the automobile industry representatives specifically 20 stated that the vehicle cannot protect the equipment 21 connected to it, and it is the responsibility of the 22 equipment to protect itself when it is connected to 23 the vehicle. As a result, this will have a negative 24 effect on all products that have traditionally relied 25 upon overcurrent protection in the electrical

300 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 infrastructure of a building, to meet the electrical 2 safety requirements of the NEC. 3 Ignoring the consequences of connecting a 4 product to an electric vehicle, and using the vehicle 5 as a source of supply, would be a mistake. Going 6 forward, UL supports working with the automotive 7 industry to develop requirements necessary to ensure 8 adequate protection of products when connected to, and 9 supplied by electric vehicles. Thank you. 10 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 11 four, please. 12 WILLIAM FISKE: Thank you, Chairman. I am 13 William Fiske. I am employed by Intertek, and I am a 14 former member of NEC Panel 1, which we're covering 15 here. But I am speaking for myself. The gentleman 16 from GM who -- 17 JAMES QUITER: For or against -- 18 WILLIAM FISKE: -- talked -- 19 JAMES QUITER: -- the motion? 20 WILLIAM FISKE: I'm - and I am in, in, in the 21 opposition to the motion. 22 JAMES QUITER: Opposition to the motion? 23 You're at the wrong mic. But go ahead. 24 WILLIAM FISKE: Okay. The, the gentleman from 25 GM mentioned the power outlets in the, in the

301 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 automobile, and - but he conveniently overlooked where 2 it says 'export electric power from vehicles to 3 premises wiring systems'. None of those things that 4 are in the vehicle export power to the premises wiring 5 system, except for the charging port itself. 6 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 7 two. 8 SCOTT CLINE: I'm Scott Cline, representing 9 NECA, and I'm Chair of the NEC Code-Making Panel 12, 10 which is responsible for Article 625, Electric 11 Vehicles. I speak against this motion. 12 Although 90.2 is not a section within the 13 purview of my panel, the subject at hand directly 14 affects my panel's Article 625 responsibilities. 15 Because this motion, and then several more regarding 16 Article 625 are to follow later, and have the same 17 general concept in common, please hear me now. Much 18 of what I will bring up will also apply to these 19 upcoming 625 motions. 20 The NEC does not want to regulate the use of 21 electricity within a vehicle used for the purposes of 22 transportation. However, we do need to include 23 regulations for electrical power receptacles intended 24 to be used while the vehicle is stationary. To be 25 clear, we are talking about providing power which is

302 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 equivalent to many household circuits and portable 2 generators; indeed, many could easily provide a 120- 3 250 volt, 50 amp circuit. The electricity provided 4 does not know where it comes from, nor does it care 5 what it goes through to complete the circuit. If it 6 goes through a human body to do so, it will be a 7 killer without remorse. The automotive people are 8 asking us to trust them that their own internal 9 systems will provide the necessary levels of 10 protection. The aircraft manufacturers of the 737 Max 11 also determined that it was safe, but it wasn't. 12 The vehicle manufacturers choose to offer 13 options which turn the vehicle into a non- 14 transportation power supply system. The options need 15 to comply with the NEC. The scope is not a one line 16 declaration of coverage which may never be changed. 17 When available technology comes into being which 18 presents electrical hazards, then the NFPA has a 19 responsibility to consider if regulations for public 20 safety are needed. 21 The regulations which Code-Making Panel 12 22 required after comprehensive discussions do not impede 23 the safe use of vehicles for transportation. They do 24 not impede the safe use of vehicles for providing 25 power to a dwelling. They do not impede the safe use

303 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 of vehicles for stationary use as a power generator. 2 We only want it done safely. Please vote no on this 3 motion. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 5 discussion on Motion 70-1 to Reject an Identifiable 6 Part of Second Revision No. 7891. Mr. Johnston, do 7 you have any further comment? 8 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 9 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Before we vote, let 10 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 11 Reject Second Revision No. 7891. To vote, touch the 12 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 13 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 14 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 15 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 16 record your vote. 17 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 18 Voting is closed. 19 The results of the vote are: 32 in support of 20 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 542 21 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 22 Two. The motion has failed. 23 As we announced earlier, far earlier, we have 24 reordered the next two motions so that they will be 25 discussed in paragraph or section order. Discussions

304 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 on Motions 70-2 will be heard after Motion 70-36. 2 Discussions on Motions 70-3 will be heard after Motion 3 70-40. 4 Therefore, let's now proceed with the 5 discussion on Certified Amending Motion 70-4. Given 6 we just jumped some, I'll give it a moment. 7 HOWARD HERNDON: Dealing with the scrolling 8 here. 9 JAMES QUITER: I'm glad you said that, because 10 I didn't even see you. 11 HOWARD HERNDON: Oh. 12 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Microphone four, when 13 you're ready. 14 HOWARD HERNDON: I'm Howard Herndon, 15 representing the 75 PEARL dealers in the United States 16 and Canada, and would like to move to accept Motion 70 17 - 70.4. 18 JAMES QUITER: Which -- 19 HOWARD HERNDON: 8072. 20 JAMES QUITER: So if you read the second screen 21 here, the middle screen, go on to say what that motion 22 is. 23 HOWARD HERNDON: That motion is to Reject the 24 Information Given in Article 100 Concerning a 25 Reconditioning.

305 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Okay. So what you're doing is 2 making a motion to Reject Second Revision No. 8072. 3 HOWARD HERNDON: That's correct. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there a second? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 6 JAMES QUITER: I - we do have a second. So 7 please proceed with the discussion on the motion, 8 again, beginning with your name and affiliation. 9 HOWARD HERNDON: I'm Howard Herndon, 10 representing PEARL, and I am in - for the motion. The 11 definition for reconditioning here was obviously not - 12 it's not consistent with other ANSI and industry 13 standards, and would like to see consistency between 14 the industry and ANSI standards, as well as make it 15 enforceable language. If you look at the terms of 16 rebuilt, refurbished, or remanufacturing, they have 17 many different meanings in many different industries, 18 and especially the electrical industry, and these are 19 not consistent with the word 'reconditioning'. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 21 you like to add the Committee comment? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 23 Certified Amending Motion 70-4 seeks to delete the 24 definition of reconditioned. At the completion of the 25 Second Draft ballot, the NEC Correlating Committee was

306 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 faced with three definitions of the same term. These 2 three definitions came from three different code- 3 making panels that were dealing with this in the 4 process. 5 Under its responsibility to correlate and 6 resolve conflict in the NEC, the Correlating Committee 7 chose a definition that was supported through 8 consensus of three code-making panels. The NEC 9 Correlating Committee also reviewed the complete 10 record of both associated public inputs, and comments 11 to insure that there was no new material being 12 introduced. The Correlating Committee that there was 13 no new material introduced. And just as a side note, 14 Public Input 2935 had global impact throughout the 15 entire NEC, and could not be handled by a single rule 16 in Chapter One. 17 I'd like to defer to the Chair of Code-Making 18 Panel 10 to add some technical explanation to this. 19 I'm not sure which mic he's at, because it's difficult 20 to see. 21 JULIAN BURNS: I could actually be at two 22 different mics, Mike. This is Julian Burns, Chairman 23 of Panel 10. I'm at mic five. 24 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Okay. I see you now. 25 (laughter)

307 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: This noise was coming from 2 back here. Pay no attention that person behind here. 3 JULIAN BURNS: CMP 10 has purview of this, 4 believe it or not. We have technical people that 5 serve on CMP 10 that work in the industry, that also 6 reconditions equipment. We spent laborious time 7 working on a definition that would comply with many 8 different avenues. You're going to hear from me again 9 about other reconditioned equipment. 10 However, this is done in the environment of 11 electrical industry on a daily basis. However, there 12 is only certain types of equipment that can be 13 reconditioned - i.e., you cannot recondition a molded 14 case circuit breaker. However, there are larger frame 15 breakers that can be reconditioned. So during this 16 process, we developed the definition that is on the 17 screen at this point in time. 18 However, we think we have purview of it; it 19 better fits in the definitions of 100. So this is 20 done every day. This is not something new. Thank 21 you. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 23 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your 24 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 25 support of, or against the motion. Microphone two,

308 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 please. 2 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 3 is Jim Dollard, representing the International 4 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in 5 opposition to the motion on the floor. 6 This is a significant issue that has a 7 significant impact on safety. And for that reason, 8 part of my comments will be read from a written 9 statement. 10 I would like to take this opportunity to 11 explain to this body, and to document in the 12 transcript for Standards Council, that this public 13 comment and all other associated public comments do 14 not contain new material. Public Input 2935 was 15 resolved by CMP 1 in the First Draft stage. Public 16 Input 2935 was in play for all related public 17 comments, as per the regulations governing the 18 development of NFPA Standards. Public Input 2935 was 19 submitted to Section 110.21 located in Chapter One, 20 Section 90.3 details code arrangement in the NEC, and 21 very clearly explains that requirements in Chapter One 22 have a global impact over all electrical products, and 23 installations in the NEC, in Chapters One through 24 Seven. Public Input 2935 would have - would have 25 required all reconditioned equipment to be listed.

309 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 That is extremely significant, and could have had a 2 major impact on the entire NEC. There are products 3 that can be reconditioned, and there are products that 4 cannot be reconditioned. This was recognized by the 5 NEC Correlating Committee as an extremely significant 6 issue that needed correlation. Therefore, a 7 Correlating Committee Task Group was formed to submit 8 global comments to instruct each code-making panel to 9 make this determination on a case by case basis, 10 because a single general requirement in Chapter One 11 could have a significantly negative impact. 12 Public comments addressing reconditioned 13 equipment through Public Input 2935 do not represent 14 new material. This public input would have required 15 all reconditioned equipment to be listed. This would 16 mean that a field evaluation of all reconditioned 17 electrical equipment would be necessary in all cases, 18 which is extremely significant. This public input 19 addressed requirements in Chapter One, and had a 20 global impact. This public input was available for 21 public review in the NFPA consensus process, as were 22 the comments. The proponents of these CAMs had the 23 opportunity to review that public input, and to review 24 the comments. Lack of involvement in the - in the 25 NFPA consensus process does not constitute new

310 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 material. Thank you. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 3 three - or number four, please. 4 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 5 Serra (phonetic) Wire, speaking in support of the 6 motion. I was involved in the process - oh, was 7 involved in the process, and did submit public inputs, 8 and public comments. 9 Unfortunately, I think the definition that came 10 out of the process is confusing. If you look at the 11 very first sentence - electromechanical systems, 12 equipment, apparatus, or components that are restored 13 to operating conditions. If I switch on a light, I 14 have restored a luminaire to operating conditions. If 15 I start up a motor, I've restored it to operating 16 conditions. It doesn't really tell us anything about 17 the substance of reconditioning electrical equipment, 18 unlike many more descriptive definitions that are in 19 published industry standards that specifically address 20 reconditioned and remanufactured equipment. 21 The second sentence of the definition is also 22 confusing. The NEC Style Manual states that the NEC 23 shall not contain references or requirements that are 24 unenforceable, or vague. In that list of possibly 25 vague or unenforceable terms is the word 'normal'

311 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 which is used in this definition. The definition says 2 that reconditioning differs from normal servicing 3 equipment, of equipment that remains within a 4 facility. But what is normal servicing? Well, if we 5 look back at the 2017 NEC cycle, the code-making panel 6 said that they considered that replacing a fuse, or 7 circuit breaker, or similar work as normal servicing. 8 So the implication is that anything beyond that is now 9 not normal servicing, but instead, reconditioning. 10 And that's true even if it occurs within the facility 11 where the equipment is located. 12 The last part of the sentence - again, 13 puzzling. It says that reconditioning does not 14 include the replacement of listed equipment on a one 15 to one basis. If - and that makes sense, because you 16 would never have thought that replacing, say, a listed 17 receptacle with another listed receptacle would be 18 reconditioning. But what if you have a control panel, 19 and you replace a recognized component with another 20 recognized component. Is that reconditioning? Is 21 that normal servicing? What if you replace a part 22 that's not even required to be listed. Is that 23 equipment now reconditioned? If it is, 110.21 will 24 require the removal of the original listing mark, and 25 application of a reconditioning label. I see no

312 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 justification for that. 2 We can have a good definition. This just 3 doesn't meet the needs of the code at this point. 4 Thank you for your time. I support the motion on the 5 floor. 6 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 7 three, please. 8 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, representing 9 Associated Builders and Contractors. Mr. Dollard - I, 10 I'm sorry. I'm speaking against the motion. And Mr. 11 Dollard, and Ms. Hunter brought up some very valid 12 points. I, I don't really - I'm not in love with the, 13 the words that were used here, that came out of the 14 process. But having been on Code Panel 11 for the 15 last 20 years, I also know that it has - it goes 16 through the process where - of public review and 17 everything else, and, and lots of thought and hours 18 are put into the process, and everybody probably in 19 this room is aware of that. 20 Having said that, there's lots of other 21 Certified Amending Motions that are going to be 22 considered in the next, hopefully just a few hours, 23 but -- 24 (laughter) 25 EDDIE GEDRY: -- related to this reconditioning

313 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 topic. And the, the, the thing is, most of the work 2 that I have done for the last 40 years has been in 3 industrial environments. And there's a need to 4 recognize the fact that some of this gear is 30, 40, 5 50, or - years or older, and it has to be 6 reconditioned, as you can't buy replacement parts. 7 The only other option is to go out and buy all new, 8 and that gets cost prohibitive at times, if you had to 9 go out and replace a whole lineup of medium switch 10 gear, for instance, instead of reconditioning it. 11 So when we're talking about these other topics 12 related to the reconditioning, I would like to just 13 remind everybody that yes, in a perfect world it would 14 be great if, instead of reconditioning equipment, to 15 replace everything with all new, but it's just not 16 possible. So keep that in mind when, when these other 17 topics come up. 18 And yes, I agree with Ms. Hunter that, that I 19 do not love this wording. But in three years - yeah, 20 I don't think it does any harm the way it is now. And 21 in three years, we get another shot to, to, to massage 22 it a little bit more. Thank you. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 24 one, please. 25 DAVE DEGENAIS: Dave Degenais, speaking on

314 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 behalf of the Healthcare Section, in favor of this 2 motion. The Healthcare Section met at their annual 3 Board meeting yesterday, and decided to speak in favor 4 of this motion. We do believe there's a need for a 5 definition with reconditioning, and let's - let's just 6 say it the way it is. This sets the foundation for 7 20-plus additional motions that are going to take 8 place this evening, or late into this evening, I 9 should probably say. So it's important that this be 10 right. We think there's a need for a definition. We 11 support a definition, but this is not it. This 12 definition provides confusion. It is inconsistent 13 with the other industry definitions. It's just going 14 to confuse, and it's going to set a poor foundation 15 for the concept for reconditioning. 16 The previous speaker spoke about the need for 17 reconditioning. I think everyone acknowledges there 18 are certain components that can be reconditioned, and 19 certain components that can't. But if we're going to 20 base the premise on what applies to reconditioning 21 with a definition, this is not the one. We urge you 22 to vote in favor of this motion. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two, 24 please. 25 BARRY RODGERS: I'm Barry Rodgers. I represent

315 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric is against 2 this motion. Schneider Electric supports the action 3 taken by the Code Panel to include this language. 4 Safety is the major reason to adopt these changes. 5 Schneider Electric states that reconditioning without 6 in depth knowledge of the technology, and product 7 standards used to the manufacturer - to design and 8 manufacture the product can pose a safety risk to 9 people. Reconditioning standards alone are not 10 sufficient to understand all the different aspects of 11 the design of the product. 12 Schneider Electric provides services for 13 reconditioning, rework, repair, maintenance, and 14 normal service. Schneider Electric opposes this CAM, 15 and supports the language as proposed in the 2020 NEC. 16 Schneider Electric believes the information as 17 proposed in the 2020 NEC is clear, and provides the 18 necessary information. My safety concern includes 19 safety of workers, as well as safety of occupants in 20 facilities. I urge you to vote against this motion. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 22 three, please. 23 MIKE STONE: Mike Stone, representing the 24 National Electrical Manufacturers Association, and I 25 also represent NEMA on Code-Making Panel 1. And NEMA

316 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 is opposed to this motion to reject - excuse me - to 2 Reject this Second Revision 8072. Thank you. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two, 4 please. 5 ROBERT OSBORNE: Robert Osborne, Principal 6 Engineer, representing UL, and I am speaking in 7 opposition to the motion. 8 One comment that I have heard twice since I've 9 been up here is this idea that there's confusion 10 behind, and there's concerns with this definition. 11 One thing I would like to point out is that this was 12 the definition that was - that was developed and 13 submitted by three different code panels. 14 So one of the tasks of the Correlating 15 Committee, which I sit on, was to determine which of 16 the definitions, as there was a fourth definition from 17 Code Panel 1 that was also submitted. So there was 18 this task of determining which of the definitions 19 would be used, and, and the definition chosen, if, if 20 it is confusing, it is one that came from there 21 different code-making panels. So it has a lot of, of 22 input from technical experts. 23 Reconditioned equipment was a term introduced 24 in the 2017 code. And regardless of actions taken on 25 other CAMs related to reconditioning, and we know

317 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 there's quite a few of them coming up, this is a new 2 definition that needs to remain, as reconditioning is 3 part of the NEC; it has been since 2017. The term is 4 needed to help an AHJ identify what is reconditioned 5 equipment, including other terms noted in the 6 Informational Note, as there's other terms such as 7 rebuilt, refurbished, remanufactured. 8 The definition also incorporates concepts of 9 servicing equipment that remains within a facility. 10 And an earlier speaker pointed to that particular 11 statement in this definition. But keep in mind, this 12 has its origins from Section 1.10.21(A)(2) 13 Informational Note No. 1. So the idea of normal 14 servicing of equipment that remains within a facility 15 has already been established, and been accepted from 16 the 2017 code. 17 So as reconditioned equipment gains more 18 prominence in the code, it is important that an, an 19 Article 100 definition is adopted. Thank you. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 21 please. 22 LARRY AYER (phonetic) Yes. My name is Larry 23 Ayer. I am Chair of IEC Codes and Standards, and I am 24 here speaking against the motion. 25 Certain - as has been mentioned before, certain

318 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 electrical products cannot be reconditioned, and other 2 products can. For those products that can be 3 reconditioned, for safety reasons, they, they must be 4 reconditioned according to consensus, or manufacturing 5 standards to make sure they function as intended. The 6 NEC has been silent on this issue in the past. For - 7 we have made numerous revisions during this cycle, and 8 they have been accepted into the 2020 cycle to define 9 what reconditioning is, and what it is not, and what 10 products can and cannot be reconditioned. It is 11 important that this definition, and all other 12 revisions on this topic, be accepted into this 13 document. We urge you to vote against this motion. 14 JAMES QUITER: Okay. I'm going to go to three 15 one more time. 16 DAVID HUMPHREY: Yes. I'm David Humphrey, I am 17 representing myself, and I rise in opposition to the 18 motion. As an AHJ, we have desperately needed a 19 definition for reconditioned equipment for some time. 20 This definition will help enormously with the process 21 of being able to identify accurately reconditioned 22 equipment. It's very important. Kicking the can down 23 the road for three more years in order to tweak a few 24 words will not help the industry; it will not help the 25 AHJs around the country, or the people who wish to use

319 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 reconditioned equipment. Thank you. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone four, 3 please. 4 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 5 International, and I call the question. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Dad-gum-it. I knew it. 9 (laughter) 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I knew it. 11 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 12 to call the question. 13 (laughter) 14 JAMES QUITER: I notice that there were a 15 number of people remaining at the microphones waiting 16 to speak -- 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 18 JAMES QUITER: -- but we'll proceed with the 19 vote on the call of the question. Do we have a 20 second? 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. Second. 22 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 23 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the very 24 bottom of your tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in 25 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to

320 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please remember, 2 this is voting only on the motion to call the 3 question. Please record your vote. 4 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 5 The voting is closed. 6 The results of the vote are: 529 in support of 7 the motion to call the question; and 33 against the 8 motion to call the question. The motion has passed - 9 which brings us back to Motion 70-4, to Reject Second 10 Revision No. 8072. 11 If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 12 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 13 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 14 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 15 vote. 16 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 17 The voting is closed. 18 The results of the vote are: 71 in support of 19 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 503 20 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 21 Two. The motion has failed. 22 Let us now proceed with the discussion on 23 Certified Amending Motion 70-5. Microphone number 24 four, please. 25 HOWARD HERNDON: Again, I'm Howard Herndon,

321 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 representing the Professional Electrical Apparatus 2 Reconditioners League, OR PEARL, and I make a motion 3 (unintelligible) -- 4 JAMES QUITER: Well, hold, hold on just a 5 minute. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) five. 7 JAMES QUITER: This was 70-5. Is that what you 8 were on? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 70 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 75. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 12 JAMES QUITER: I'm looking for Thomas Bishop, 13 as -- 14 THOMAS BISHOP: That's me. 15 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Thank you. 16 THOMAS BISHOP. Okay. 17 JAMES QUITER: Go ahead. 18 THOMAS BISHOP: We have very similar 19 submittals, so I think that's the reason for the, the 20 confusion. 21 Okay. My name is Thomas Bishop with the 22 Electrical Apparatus Service Association, and I'm in 23 favor of this motion to -- 24 JAMES QUITER: First, you've got to make the 25 motion.

322 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 THOMAS BISHOP: Oh. Sorry. I make a motion 2 that we Reject an Identifiable Part of the Second 3 Correlating Revision No. 71. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There is a motion on 5 the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 6 Correlating Revision No. 71. Is there a second? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 8 JAMES QUITER: Say it louder. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 10 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. We do have a second. 11 Please proceed with the discussion on the motion. And 12 again, start by - with your name and affiliation. 13 THOMAS BISHOP: Thomas Bishop, Electrical 14 Apparatus Service Association, and I'm in favor of 15 this motion. And what this relates to, it, it - one 16 of the primary things is the, the requiring of the 17 listing mark removal that's been added to this 18 section. And if, if we do that, you know, it brings 19 up a number of implications. But one of the things 20 that, when I look back through the records of, of how 21 this came about, in the First Draft Revision, Public 22 Input 2935, anyway, the statement was made that the 23 presence of the original certification mark on 24 reconditioned equipment suggests to the installer and 25 the AHJ that the equipment is compliant with the

323 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 product safety standard related to that equipment. 2 In reality, the actual compliance with the 3 related safety standard is unknown. To me the - you 4 know, the above statement is fundamentally flawed, in 5 that it applies to all installed equipment. Well, 6 once you put a piece of equipment in, the listing mark 7 - the way I would read this - the listing mark is no 8 longer applicable. Maybe there should be, you know, 9 like a tear-off tab on it. There - it just - it, it 10 just, like I say, it defies my imagination, but - 11 compliance to the original manufactured state. You, 12 you don't know what that original manufactured state, 13 whether that's been preserved, once that piece of 14 equipment's been installed. 15 So the, the listing mark, the manufacturer's 16 mark, you don't know what that's about. And if you 17 try and take that listing mark off, basically you're 18 going to have to deface that labeling that's on that 19 machine. And now you have, you know, a potential 20 legal issue, as I see it, between an end user and the 21 person who's doing that service work, or that 22 reconditioning - because they're going to say, 'You've 23 defaced this nameplate. You've destroyed - 24 especially, you've destroyed historical information.' 25 Now we can't trace back to, you know, information

324 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 about the original listing mark. So you know, that, 2 that's part of the issue here. 3 The main paragraph of the exception in this 4 statement ends with a statement that is, that, that is 5 reconditioned by the owner or operator as part of a 6 regular equipment maintenance program. That the 7 exception allows someone who's working for the owner, 8 who works for the owner of the equipment, to do work 9 on that machine, essentially reconditioning. But if 10 it's someone who's a professional in reconditioning 11 electrical apparatus, they're not allowed to work on 12 it. 13 And, and then it brings up, to me, a gray area 14 of, well, what about when you are the owner of the 15 equipment, and you hire someone out, you embed 16 material from another organization to be your in-house 17 maintenance work. But where does that fall? Does 18 that fall within, or without, you know, outside of the 19 scope of this. 20 So - and my just - one last thing is 21 Informational Note No. Two is new text that wasn't 22 identified as new text. It wasn't new text - it 23 didn't exist in the 2017 edition, but now it's shown 24 here as though it did. So - thank you. 25 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would

325 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 you like to offer the Panel's position? 2 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 Second Correlating Revision 71 did effect this, so I 4 will address the Correlating Committee's activity. 5 The text was revised by the Correlating 6 Committee in, in Second Correlating Revision 71. Note 7 that their action deleted the second sentence of 8 Informational Note No. 1 because it contained a 9 recommendation. That's in violation of the NEC Style 10 Manual, which the Correlating Committee is responsible 11 for. This text had been already included in the 2017 12 edition of the NEC. However, with the new definition 13 being placed in Article 100, and new Informational 14 Note, this sentence, in this - and this Informational 15 Note is now extraneous. 16 And I'd like to defer to the Chair of Code 17 Panel One, Ken Boyce. 18 JAMES QUITER: I believe he's at mic two. 19 KEN BOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ken Boyce, 20 ULC - UL LLC, Chairman of Code-Making Panel One. I 21 speak in opposition to the motion. 22 As Mike Johnston stated, the Correlating 23 Committee removed the last sentence of Informational 24 Note One in concert with the addition of a new 25 definition in Article 100.

326 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 CMP 1 added the requirement that the original 2 listing mark of the equipment is to be removed when 3 reconditioned. This is consistent with the conceptual 4 approach that has been in Section 110.21(A), that the 5 approval of the reconditioned equipment shall not be 6 solely based on the equipment's original listing. 7 Once the equipment is reconditioned, the party 8 performing the reconditioning is responsible for 9 addressing necessary actions related to approval 10 associated with the reconditioning. The original 11 listing which applied to the product as it left its 12 original point of manufacture, is no longer applicable 13 after reconditioning. The continued compliance of the 14 product with the applicable requirements, which is the 15 basis for the original listing, is no longer known. 16 Therefore, CMP 1 introduced the new requirement 17 to remove the original listing mark associated with 18 the reconditioning to promote clarity relative to the 19 approval process for the equipment. This approach was 20 overwhelming supported by CMP 1. We believe it marks 21 a significant progression in addressing the safety and 22 approval of reconditioned equipment. Thank you. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 24 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your 25 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in

327 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 support of, or against the motion. Microphone one, 2 please. 3 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. I'm Chris Hunter 4 with Serra (phonetic) Wire, speaking in support of the 5 motion. Removing the original listing mark - it has 6 no value to the user of the code. The requirement in 7 110.21 already requires that reconditioned equipment 8 be identified as reconditioned; that - and then it 9 instructs the AHJ not to depend on the original 10 listing mark for approval. The listing mark on 11 switchboards, transformers, and other electrical 12 equipment is most often an integral part of the label 13 on the equipment that contains other necessary, 14 critical information about the characteristics of the 15 equipment. Quite often, these labels are permanently 16 applied, and the removal is time consuming, and it's 17 pointless. It, it provides no value. It can be 18 difficult or impossible to actually remove that 19 listing mark without destroying that critical 20 electrical characteristic information from the 21 equipment, and that can actually lead to a greater 22 hazard to anyone who has to work on that equipment in 23 the future and depends on that information to 24 determine what they're working on. I support the 25 motion on the floor. Thank you.

328 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 2 two, please. 3 BARRY RODGERS: I'm Barry Rodgers. I represent 4 Schneider Electric. We are against this motion. We 5 support the action taken by the Code Panel to include 6 this language. The listing mark notes that the 7 product meets appropriate standards, and found 8 suitable for its purpose. The removal of the mark 9 helps inform the user, and Code Enforcement, that the 10 equipment has been reconditioned, and may not meet the 11 requirements of the industry product safety standard. 12 I urge you to vote against this motion. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 14 four. 15 RICHARD HOLUB: Richard Holub with DuPont, 16 representing the American Chemistry Council, and I'm 17 speaking for the proposal. 18 OSHA 29 CFR 1910.303 requires all electrical 19 equipment used in the workplace be approved. So by 20 taking this action to remove a listing mark, you're 21 actually shutting down a whole industry of motor 22 repair, unless you get all of your motors' repairs, 23 you know, third party listed. I don't see that 24 happening. 25 Fundamentally, we're creating a problem here

329 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 because we want to insulate, I guess, the NRTL 2 (phonetic) from, from any potential legal action down 3 the road. If you want to require, you know, that 4 third party reconditioners apply a new label to 5 indicate that this equipment has been reconditioned, 6 that's fine. But removing a listing mark creates a 7 problem with the OSHA language that we have today. 8 Thank you. I'd urge you -- 9 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 10 RICHARD HOLUB: -- to vote against this. 11 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 12 RICHARD HOLUB: Or - I'm sorry - vote for this. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 14 three, please. 15 BRIAN HOLLAND: Thank you. My name is Brian 16 Holland, and I'm with NEMA Codes and Standards, 17 speaking in opposition for CAM 70-5 - NEMA is opposed 18 to the Motion to Reject the Identifiable Part of 19 Second Correlation Revision No. 71. We ask you to 20 vote no on this motion, and keep the recommended text 21 that's identified in Screen Number Two. Thank you. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. And again, to 23 microphone number three. 24 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 25 is Jim Dollard, representing the International

330 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in 2 opposition to the motion on the floor. 3 I'd like to make a couple of brief comments. 4 First, there was a - a - somebody mentioned that 5 Informational Note No. 2 was new material in the 6 Second Draft stage. That's not true. That was put in 7 with First Revision 8560. Comments to the fact that 8 you can't remove the listing mark without completely 9 damaging the equipment are not valid, not by any 10 stretch of the imagination. It's 2019. And it's easy 11 to obscure the listing mark. This is extremely 12 important. We're talking about equipment, like a 13 transfer switch, that may be necessary to transfer to 14 emergency power, okay. And you - we've got language 15 in there now that says you can't do that. We have 16 (unintelligible, inaudible). 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We've got a mic problem. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 19 JAMES QUITER: Yeah. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 21 JAMES QUITER: Yeah. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Gotta stop the clock. 23 (laughter) 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Stop the clock. 25 (applause)

331 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Good stuff. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 4 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Where are we? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think -- 6 JAMES QUITER: I think the referee said you 7 gotta go back to three minutes. 8 (laughter) 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think the referee 10 probably did not. 11 (laughter) 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's an electrical 14 battery (unintelligible) -- 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you, Sir. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hey, we got Cisco in 18 here. 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 21 JIM DOLLARD: All right. Well, you know what, 22 I'm probably working with a reconditioned microphone. 23 (laughter) 24 (applause) 25 JIM DOLLARD: But we've got requirements that

332 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 are specifically - that specifically point out types 2 of equipment that we'll - we're going to be dealing 3 with CAMS on those later today. But we've got many 4 pieces of equipment that are addressed by the National 5 Electrical Code, that - we don't say that you can, and 6 we don't say that you can't. So the only requirement 7 would be if - is if somebody reconditions them, they 8 must remove the listing mark. 9 If you are the research and testing 10 organization, and the manufacturer, and you built that 11 product to the applicable standard, if somebody else 12 gets their hands in there after that equipment was 13 under water six months ago, and just puts it back into 14 service, the research and testing laboratory and the 15 manufacturer still own liability. If they want to do 16 that, if they want to recondition that equipment, let 17 them put their name on it, and take the listing mark 18 off. Thank you. I urge everybody to oppose the 19 motion on the floor. 20 JAMES QUITER: See, you didn't need three more 21 minutes. Microphone number three, please. 22 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Oh. 23 JAMES QUITER: Yeah, that's you. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 25 (laughter)

333 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: I thought - Robert's been 2 standing up there. I was just like, okay. So my name 3 is Thomas Domitrovich. I am with Eaton, and I am 4 speaking in opposition to the motion on the floor. 5 What - the, the, the motion on the floor and 6 the item that we're talking about right now has to 7 deal with transparency. And when you look at this, 8 this section of the Code, 110.21 and the marking 9 requirements, you have to also consider that there are 10 other requirements within the National Electrical 11 Code, including the definition, which we just 12 addressed, and they all work together. 13 So the marking requirement for removing the 14 reconditioned - removing the, the listing labelling - 15 the listing of the equipment, the marking, and 16 identifying the person, and the individual, or the 17 organization that is doing the refurbishing, which in 18 - in - as, as Eaton, we both manufacture new 19 equipment, and we do consider remanufacturing, or 20 reconditioning equipment, as well. So we do both of 21 these, these operations on equipment. And we ensure 22 that the transparency for the end user, who's going to 23 be purchasing and installing that equipment 24 understands exactly what they're receiving. 25 Remember that we're talking about electrical

334 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 safety equipment, including GFCIs, AFCIs, and other 2 technologies that are there to save lives and protect 3 property, which is the fundamental reason behind the 4 National Electrical Code. I urge everybody to support 5 - or to not support this 70-5. Thank you. 6 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two. 7 ROBERT OSBORNE: Thank you. Robert Osborne, 8 representing UL, and speaking in opposition to the 9 motion. 10 The application of the listing mark is the 11 OEM's attestation that the product complied with 12 listing requirements at the time of manufacture. For 13 equipment that has been installed, possibly worn, 14 possibly damage, then taken out of service, sent to an 15 off-site facility for reconditioning, compliance with 16 the listing requirements can only be determined if 17 then reevaluated by a NRTL (phonetic) that is 18 qualified to apply the latest edition of the end 19 product standard, and then apply a new certification 20 mark, indicating that it has been certified as 21 reconditioned. 22 UL supports reconditioning, and has well over 23 100 listing programs to facilitate evaluation of 24 reconditioned equipment. When those products are 25 validated as being in compliance with the latest

335 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 edition of the standard, our policy is the original 2 listing remark is removed, and a new listing mark is 3 applied, identifying listing with an appropriate 4 identifier, such as, 'Rebuilt Electric Sign'. 5 Without a code requirement to remove the 6 listing mark, the end user, the AHJ, they see the mark 7 and assume that the product complies with the 8 applicable end product safety standard. This promotes 9 a false sense of security, as without recertification, 10 compliance is an unknown, and may lead to the use of 11 unsafe equipment. Thank you. 12 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. And microphone 13 number three, please. 14 DAVID HUMPHREY: Yes. David Humphrey, 15 representing myself, and I speak in opposition to the 16 motion. First of all, a statement was made earlier 17 about all products having to be approved. Approved is 18 acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction, and 19 has absolutely nothing to do with a listing mark. 20 Secondly, as an enforcer, when you go in the field to 21 do inspections, and you see a listing mark, generally 22 a lot of guys stop there. But if this is 23 reconditioned equipment, that's the mark that counts. 24 And there should be but one mark - that's the 25 refurbished or reconditioned mark. And then the

336 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 inspector may enforce his or her decision based on 2 that mark, and that mark alone. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 4 discussion on Motion 70-5 to Reject an Identifiable 5 Part of Second Correlating Revision No. 71? Mr. 6 Johnston, do you want to add anything? 7 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have no further comments, 8 Mr. Chair. 9 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 10 THOMAS BISHOP: Can I make one more comment? 11 It's Thomas Bishop from Electrical Apparatus Service 12 Association? 13 JAMES QUITER: Yes. 14 THOMAS BISHOP: But the rationale here -- 15 JAMES QUITER: Say -- 16 THOMAS BISHOP: -- that -- 17 JAMES QUITER: -- say - you'd said that part, 18 but for or against -- 19 THOMAS BISHOP: Okay. I'm for the motion, 20 okay. And, and the, the remark that was made from, 21 like the fellow from UL, that this applies to the 22 equipment at the time it was manufactured, and then 23 later on, we hear this statement about, well, it's 24 been reconditioned, then it needs to have a 25 recondition mark, and take off the label that says it

337 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 was built to the standard that it was built to, and it 2 was certified to that. That applies to every piece of 3 equipment. Once that machine, if it's five years old, 4 or three months old, or 10 years old - someone spoke 5 about a flood. Well, what if the machine was in a 6 flood, the equipment, and nothing was done, and they 7 turned it back on? That label is still there, and it 8 doesn't fall under reconditioning. If you're going to 9 say remove the label, then you better remove the label 10 when you install the equipment. Thank you. 11 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Thank you. I will make a 12 comment. I may have missed you, because it's hard to 13 see out there, but if not, please be at the mics and 14 ready when we're, when we're doing this. Mike, do you 15 want to respond to any of that? 16 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have no additional 17 comments -- 18 JAMES QUITER: Okay. 19 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: -- Mr. Chair. 20 JAMES QUITER: So before we vote, let me 21 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 22 Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Correlating 23 Revision No. 71. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. 24 If you wish to vote in support of the motion, and 25 recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you

338 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 2 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 3 vote. 4 Five seconds. 5 The voting is closed. 6 The results of the vote are: 65 in support of 7 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 8 484 against the motion, and recommend the text on 9 Screen Two. The motion has failed. 10 Before we progress with item 70-6, I have a 11 couple of announcements. One is we will be taking - 12 assuming we're still going, we'll be optimistic and 13 just say that - but assuming we're still going at six 14 o'clock, we will take a 30 minute break. That is 15 partially because concessions will close at 7 o'clock, 16 so if you need to get something to eat for the 17 remainder of the session, please do so during that 30 18 minute break. Also at this point, we will take a 15 19 minute break, and reconvene at 4:20. Thank you. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, thank you. 21 (BREAK) (MUSIC) 22 (background voices) 23 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Let's now proceed with 24 the discussion on Certified Amending Motion 70-6. 25 Microphone four, please.

339 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 HOWARD HERNDON: In light of the decision on 2 70.5, I withdraw this motion. 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yay. 4 (applause) 5 JAMES QUITER: The motion on 70-6, which 6 appeared in our Agenda; however, the authorized maker 7 of the motion has notified NFPA that he no longer 8 wishes to pursue this motion. Therefore, in 9 accordance with NFPA Rules, Convention Rules at 10 Section 2.7, the motion may not be considered by the 11 assembly, and is removed from the Agenda. 12 We will now move on to the next motion, which 13 is 70-7. So let's proceed with the discussion on 14 Certified Amending Motion 70-7. Microphone four, 15 please. 16 RICHARD HOLUB: My name is Richard Holub. 17 Represent DuPont, and the America Chemistry Council, 18 and I am here to speak in support of CAM 70-7 to 19 Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision 8104. 20 JAMES QUITER: Okay. I will take that as a 21 motion. Is there a second? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 23 JAMES QUITER: Okay. We do have a second. The 24 motion is to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 25 Revision No. 8104. Please proceed with the discussion

340 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 on the motion. And again, start with identifying 2 yourself again. 3 RICHARD HOLUB: Once again, Richard Holub with 4 DuPont, representing the American Chemistry Council, 5 speaking in support of this motion to Reject an 6 Identifiable Part of 8104. 7 The public comment that put this language in 8 the code was well intentioned, but while well 9 intentioned, it's had some unintended consequences. 10 The, the specific sentence that we want to reject is, 11 'Open equipment doors shall not impede the entry to, 12 or egress from the working space.' It's just that 13 single sentence. 14 And fundamentally, we're talking about large 15 equipment, and when large equipment - we're talking 16 about 1200 amps or greater, and over six feet wide. 17 And basically, when we have that condition, 18 110.26(C)(2) is going to require you to have two 19 entrances or methods to enter and egress that 20 workspace. 21 And the, the language here that was inserted 22 was intended to attack conditions where you have 23 equipment that has two doors, where they open in 24 opposite directions, and you could be working between 25 the two doors. And that's, that's great. But the

341 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 language that they inserted didn't state that. 2 So basically, what the consequence is, is now 3 on the back of your switch gear, when you have a 4 single door that opens, and that door might three feet 5 wide - when that door opens, and you only have three 6 and a half feet from, from the back of that switch 7 gear to the wall, you know, you've only got a half a 8 foot between that, that one door and the wall, so I've 9 limited means of egress in one direction. Well, I 10 still have a means of egress in the other direction; 11 that should be acceptable. And the proposal that put 12 this in didn't address that. 13 So I'm asking you to reject it, and to take 14 this language out, and then in the next cycle we can 15 get the language correct at the First Draft stage, not 16 put a change in like this at the Second Draft stage, 17 where it didn't get public review. 18 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Thank you. 19 RICHARD HOLUB: Thank you. 20 JAMES QUITER: Mr. Johnston, would you like to 21 offer the Panel's position? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 23 were no correlating issues or conflicts identified by 24 the NEC Correlating Committee. I'd like to defer to 25 microphone two and the Chair of Code Panel 1, Kenneth

342 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Boyce. 2 KENNETH BOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ken 3 Boyce, UL, LLC, Chairman of Code-Making Panel 1. I 4 speak in opposition to the motion. CMP 1 added 5 requirements to Section 110.26(C)(2) to prevent open 6 equipment doors from impeding the entry to, or egress 7 from the working space associated with large 8 equipment. This was done for an important reason - to 9 minimize the change of entrapment of a person between 10 open equipment doors and an obstruction, such as a 11 wall, facing the equipment. 12 CMP took this important action to provide 13 additional safety for workers who need access to, and 14 egress from large equipment containing over current 15 devices, switching devices, or control devices. 16 Ensuring that workers can have unimpeded access 17 to, and egress from the working space is an important 18 safety issue, and the requirement to ensure that 19 equipment doors will not impede that access or egress 20 is an important advancement for worker safety. 21 All return votes were in the affirmative, 22 reflecting the Panel's alignment on this issue. Code- 23 Making Panel 1 believes that this safety advancement 24 is critical and achievable, and strongly supports this 25 critical requirement. Thank you.

343 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 2 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your 3 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 4 support of, or against the motion. Microphone four, 5 please. 6 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 7 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. This 8 is - it's an overreaching requirement. It doesn't 9 really solve the problem that it was intended to 10 solve, but it does add significant confusion to the 11 application of the working space requirements in 12 110.26. My company operates four manufacturing 13 facilities in the US. In every one of those 14 facilities, we have multiple installations that 15 qualify as large equipment, under this code provision. 16 None of that equipment has two doors that will impede 17 egress, and yet this language will apply to that 18 equipment. But the way this requirement is worded 19 will make it impossible to replace that existing 20 equipment and still comply with the working space 21 requirements. 22 The intent of the requirement's good, but the 23 actual language goes far beyond the original intent. 24 It creates an impractical requirements that will 25 significantly delay the replacement of aged equipment.

344 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The language as written will require - could require 2 walls to be removed, existing large equipment to be 3 relocated, and it creates an unjustified burden on 4 commercial and industrial facilities, while failing to 5 increase safety in nearly every case. I urge you to 6 support this motion. Thank you. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 8 three, please. 9 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My 10 name is Jim Dollard, and I'm representing the 11 International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. I 12 represent the International Brotherhood of Electrical 13 Workers on multiple committees - the NEC Correlating 14 Committee, Code-Making Panel 10, Code-Making Panel 13, 15 and NFPA 70E. NFPA 70E is electrical safety in the 16 workplace. I would remind everyone that this section 17 -- 18 JAMES QUITER: I think I forgot to ask you to 19 say whether you are for or against. 20 JIM DOLLARD: Oh, I'm obviously against. 21 JAMES QUITER: Obviously, but you need to say 22 it. 23 JIM DOLLARD: Obviously against. I would like 24 to let everybody know this section is dealing with 25 large equipment. So we're starting at 1200 amps. And

345 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 this is about working space. When we need to do 2 justified energized work, and we, and when we need to 3 get into large equipment, when we need to get into 4 systems that are Y connected secondaries at 480 volts, 5 there are significant arc flash hazards. We have to 6 have the capability to get out. 7 Pictures are worth a thousand words. Imagine 8 you're standing with me, working on equipment. Behind 9 our back is a block wall. To our right we've got a 10 door that opens 90 degrees, and blocks it, and to our 11 left we have a door that opens 90 degrees, and blocks 12 it. If there is an arc flash incident, we cannot get 13 out. It's 2019. We can design equipment so that we 14 are not exposed to those types of hazards. This is 15 practical. It doesn't make any sense at all to lock 16 the men and women that work on these systems into an 17 area, and allow them to continuously be exposed to 18 temperatures in 15 to 30,000 degrees Fahrenheit, 19 breathing super-heated, toxic gasses. I urge you to 20 reject the motion on the floor. Thank you. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 22 one, please. 23 SKIP GREGORY: Skip Gregory, Health Facility 24 Consulting, speaking in favor of the motion. When I - 25 we took a vote yesterday in the Healthcare Section at

346 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the business meeting in support of this motion. 2 I've been working on codes and standards for 25 3 years, and when I see language like 'impede the entry' 4 - the word 'impede' I refer to as liquid language, 5 because it can mean anything that the person in, 6 involved in enforcing this wants it to mean. As a 7 former authority having jurisdiction, my - my eyes 8 light up when I see something like 'impede the entry' 9 - because I can easily make any kind of deficiency 10 statement I want to, based on that language. 11 It's unfortunate that this sentence was so 12 vaguely written that it will be vaguely enforced. I 13 support - I would urge you to support returning this 14 back to the Committee, and let's get something we can 15 actually enforce. Thank you. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Back to microphone 17 three. 18 KEITH LAUGHLIN (phonetic): Yes, Keith Laughlin 19 with, with the International Association of Electrical 20 Inspectors, and I stand in opposition of this motion. 21 Not only is this a needed requirement for the 22 installers, it's a needed requirement for the 23 electrical inspectors, as well. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 JAMES QUITER: And microphone number four. 25 RICHARD HOLUB: Richard Holub with DuPont, once

347 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 again speaking in favor of this. I don't think 2 there's any of us that would disagree with Mr. 3 Dollard's depiction. If we had - were standing 4 between two doors that were open and impeding, you 5 know, egress, I think we could all agree that that's 6 not a safe condition. 7 But now picture one door's open, it's clear all 8 access in the other direction, and we're saying that 9 that's unsafe and we can't have that condition. 10 Basically, what you're doing is, is stopping all 11 replacement of equipment. We, we won't replace it. 12 Because I can't replace it in its current location, 13 that project's not going to go forward. There's no 14 way you're going to, you're going to get the money to 15 relocate it, and extend those cables, or reroute the 16 cables to a new location. So this is a huge problem 17 that you're putting on the industry, with, with no 18 benefit. 19 When it's two doors, I fully agree, that's a 20 condition we need to fix. And that's what the comment 21 was there to address. But you know, the comment went 22 in at the, the Second Draft. It didn't go in at the 23 proposal stage, when we could have fixed it; it went 24 in at the Second Draft. And to say there's no 25 correlation problems, it really is a correlation

348 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 problem when you look at, you know, behind that 2 equipment, depending on how that equipment's designed, 3 you know, three and a half feet is no longer the case. 4 It's now five feet required behind the equipment, 5 because the door is three feet. So it does create a 6 problem in applying the table that we have today, a 7 longstanding table, for separation of equipment. So 8 I, I'd urge you to support this. Thank you. 9 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Back to microphone 10 three. 11 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 12 is Jim Dollard, representing the International 13 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in 14 opposition to the motion on the floor. I would remind 15 everybody that this requirement that you see on the 16 screen, 110.26(E)(2) large equipment - we're talking 17 about where two doors are required. We're not talking 18 about the load center in your basement at a hundred 19 amps at 240 volts. We're talking about extremely 20 large systems, with an extreme amount of energy - and 21 we're there. 22 So one of the things that we heard was there's 23 no benefit. Let's do it this way. Think of a young 24 man or a young man or a young woman that's related to 25 you, and they're working with me. And we're going to

349 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 limit the access for us to get out of the way of that 2 arcing event. We're going to ensure that we're 3 standing there breathing superheated air, exposed to 4 all that arc flash energy. And what you heard was 5 there's no benefit. I've been representing Labor in 6 this process since 1999 cycle, and I can tell you 7 there's tremendous benefit to the change that we see 8 in 110.26(C)(2) for large equipment. I urge you to 9 vote in opposition to the motion on the floor. Thank 10 you. 11 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Also at microphone three. 12 BILL NOLTEE (phonetic): My name is Bill 13 Noltee. I am also IBEW, but I do not speak for IBEW. 14 I would - actually, I want to speak in opposition to 15 this amendment, because I have been in the situations, 16 and the argument that there's no benefit just doesn't 17 hold water. 18 In a perfect world, if you only had one door 19 blocking and the event wasn't between you and the 20 other exit, then this wouldn't be a problem. But the 21 situation can occur where you do not have an exit 22 because one door blocks your exit, and the other one, 23 you've got an arc flash event blocking your exit, your 24 opposite exit. So again, I, I - I firmly reject this 25 motion.

350 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: And back to microphone number 2 four. 3 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 4 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. I, I 5 just want to take issue with the, the statement that 6 there are always two doors required. We're talking 7 about the doors on the equipment. And I can tell you, 8 we have a lot of large equipment that does not have 9 two doors that have to be open at the same time. So 10 to put this in, in those cases when that is not the 11 situation is - it is a burden, and it does not provide 12 the benefit that it is purported to provide. 13 We do want to increase safety. No one is 14 saying that we don't. We just want language that is 15 actually practical, and does what it is intended to 16 do. Thank you. 17 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 18 discussion on Motion 70-1, to Reject an Identifiable 19 Part of Second Revision No. 8104? Are you coming to 20 the mic, Sir? Okay. 21 BILL NOLTEE: Again, my name's Bill Noltee. I 22 am rejecting - or in opposition to the motion. One of 23 the things - there are simple mechanical solutions to 24 this. If you put a bi-fold door in, you don't block 25 the, the egress. So there, there are simple, easy

351 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ways to get around this. The, the comments that it 2 creates a burden on the industry is just false. Thank 3 you. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, do you 5 have anything further to add? 6 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Mr. 7 Chair. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Before we vote, let 9 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 10 Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 11 8104. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish 12 to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 13 text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote 14 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 15 Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 16 You have five seconds. 17 The voting is closed. 18 The results of the vote are: 135 in support of 19 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 20 385 against the motion, and recommend the text on 21 Screen Two. Therefore, the motion has failed. 22 With that, let's proceed with the discussion on 23 Certified Amending Motion No. 70-8. Thank you. 24 Microphone one, please. 25 DAN BUUCK: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is

352 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Dan Buuck, and I represent the National Association of 2 Homebuilders. And I make a motion to Reject an 3 Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 7697, 4 Including any Related Portions of First Revision Nos. 5 8119 and 7705. 6 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. I think that's the 7 most complicated motion today. There is a motion on 8 the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 9 Revision No. 7697, Including any Related Portions of 10 First Revisions Nos. 8119 and 7705. Is there a 11 second? 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. We do have a second. 14 Please proceed with the discussion of the motion. 15 DAN BUUCK: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, Dan 16 Buuck with the National Association of Homebuilders; 17 also a voting member of Panel 2, not representing 18 Panel 2. And that is a complicated motion, but it's 19 fairly -- 20 JAMES QUITER: And speaking for the motion, 21 correct? 22 DAN BUUCK: Speaking for the motion - thank 23 you. It basically maintains the language of the 2017 24 edition, as shown on the screen, and does not expand 25 GFCI requirements to 240 volt receptacles that are

353 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 within six feet of a sink or similar source of water. 2 This - the - and this is the first of three 3 motions opposing the expansion of GFCI coverage that 4 are not technically supported. And in this particular 5 one, the voting member from NECA, as well as EEI, 6 agree with the fact that there was no technical 7 substantiation to make this change, as shown in their 8 ballot responses on their negative votes that were 9 published. 10 The proponents of the change cited an 11 installation hazard, which is already addressed in the 12 NEC. And according to the, the article that they 13 cited, the appliance in question was, and I quote, 'an 14 older installation, one predating today's requirement 15 to install an equipment grounding conductor in the 16 branch circuit to the range.' End quote. 17 240 volt receptacles serving large appliances 18 which are rarely moved do not present similar hazards 19 as 120 volt receptacles serving smaller, corded 20 appliances such as hair dryers, toasters, blenders. 21 So I ask that you please support this motion, and 22 thank you very much. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, do you 24 have anything to say for the Panel? 25 MICHAEL JOHNSTON:: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

354 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 There were no correlation issues or conflicts 2 identified by the NEC Correlating Committee. I would 3 like to defer to the Chair of Code-Making Panel Two, 4 Mark Hilbert, and I believe he's at microphone three. 5 MARK HILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. If it 6 pleases the Presiding Officer - my name's Mark Hilbert 7 from - and I do represent the International 8 Association of Electric Inspectors on Code-Making 9 Panel 2, and I have had the pleasure of being Chair 10 for the last three cycles. 11 I speak in opposition to the motion on behalf 12 of CMP 2. And this actually - there was a fatality 13 that was associated with this change. This is the 14 second cycle now that this was attempted, and the - it 15 did result from a plumbing contractor who came in 16 contact with an energized out enclosure of a, of a 17 range, which was actually a new electric range. And 18 he was working underneath the sink, and it resulted in 19 a fatality from a fault that occurred to the - and 20 energized the outer jacket of the, of the range. So 21 there was substantiation to increase to the 250 volts. 22 I'd also like to make a note that it should say 23 125 volt, single 50, and 20 amp, which was the 24 previous language in the 2017 NEC. 25 So as I said, the - I stand in support of the

355 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Panel's work on this. There was substantiation for 2 it. Mr. Chairman, all sides of the, of the issue were 3 heard and had ample time at the Panel. It resulted in 4 a 10 to 4 vote, with 10 in favor, and four - four 5 against. Excuse me - 11 for, and three against - my 6 bad. 7 JAMES QUITER: Okay. 8 MARK HILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 10 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your 11 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 12 support of, or against the motion. Let's go to mic 13 three first. 14 MIKE STONE: Mike Stone, representing the 15 National Electrical Manufacturers Association. NEMA 16 is opposed to this motion to Reject an Identifiable 17 Part of Second Revision 7697, Including any Related 18 Portions of First Revision 8119 and 7705. Thank you. 19 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone one. 20 DAN BUUCK: Thank you. Dan Buuck, National 21 Association of Homebuilders, speaking in support of 22 the motion. Again, I point to the, the article that 23 was cited, that it was an older installation. 24 Another point to be made about this is that it 25 only applies to receptacles. Many of those larger

356 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 appliances are also hardwired, and this will increase 2 the, the - that practice that they become hardwired, 3 to get around this, this requirement for GFCI. 4 This is only putting it back to what we 5 currently have. We believe that that is safe. And 6 maybe you've seen a report that came out recently from 7 the NFPA Policy Institute that mentions that adoptions 8 of the NEC are becoming more difficult. The - 9 editions are getting skipped; the process is taking 10 longer; there are more amendments; and most of all, 11 it's becoming more politicized. If you want to avoid 12 that that continues down that road, please vote for 13 this motion. It's exactly issues like this that 14 brings politicians into the process, and we don't want 15 to see that continue unnecessarily. 16 There are so many things that are improvements 17 to the NEC - we're talking about safety at marinas. 18 We're talking about EE - ESS technology. We're also 19 talking about emergency disconnects. That is 20 something that's new, that will be in this code, that 21 the homebuilders, NHB, specifically, has supported. 22 The longer that it takes to get the NEC adopted, the 23 more homes will not have this improved safety, and the 24 less that there will be these emergency disconnects 25 that will protect the Fire Service and others who need

357 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 to quickly shut off the power to the home. So I ask 2 you to support the motion. Thank you. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 4 three, please. 5 MARK GOODSON: Yes. My name is Mark Goodson. 6 I am a consulting engineer, representing myself on 7 this particular matter - against the motion. 8 I had the luxury of doing graduate school at 9 the medical examiner's office in medical school in 10 Dallas. I consult for three medical examiners offices 11 in the Dallas area. This - this is addressing a real 12 problem. And there - there are people being hurt and 13 killed because of the lack of ground fault 14 interrupters. Since 1982 when I started this 15 business, ground fault interrupters have come a long 16 way. The death rate has dropped. There is no reason 17 we can't do even better with our 240 volt appliances. 18 Thank you. 19 JAMES QUITER: Microphone number one, please. 20 FRED HARTWELL: Fred Hartwell, speaking for 21 myself. I realize that speaking against - or seeming 22 to speak against GFCI is a - it's a little like 23 farting in church. 24 (laughter) 25 FRED HARTWELL: But I have to say that the

358 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 substantiation for this one is some of the most 2 incomplete that I have seen in 30 years on the 3 National Electrical Code Committee. 4 We had a stove that was not installed in 5 accordance with existing code requirements. It was 6 installed in a hazardous manner by an unqualified 7 person. And the result was an extreme hazard that 8 unfortunately, took a life. But this is a very 9 isolated incident. I think the most relevant thing 10 here is that these appliances simply aren't moved, or 11 unplugged and plugged in. There's just - it just 12 doesn't happen very much. And where - you know, this 13 is just - we need better substantiation to impose 14 these kind of costs. And I just - I have a problem 15 with that. I, I, I just do. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three, 17 please. 18 JOHN MCHAMMISH (phonetic): Thank you, Mr. 19 Chair. This is John McHammish. I serve on Code- 20 Making Panel 2, where I represent the IBEW. Just to 21 answer the - a few of the points that were made 22 earlier - today's installations become tomorrow's old 23 installations. And so to cite the reason as these are 24 older installations, and that is why accidents happen 25 - tomorrow, these installations that this code would

359 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 apply to, will need GFCI protection, as been - as has 2 been proven. 3 To round out additional substantiation - there 4 were three deaths - a four-year-old girl, and two 10- 5 year-old boys who were electrocuted, killed, when they 6 went to retrieve either a pet, or a stuffed animal 7 behind a dryer. 8 So my question is, at what point do these 9 deaths become relevant, as far as substantiation is 10 concerned. I don't know how many it takes. I prefer 11 a proactive approach. I don't see why in today's 12 world with the technology we have, that electrocutions 13 occur in our home. Furthermore, these are 14 electrocutions. These are not shocks, that largely go 15 unreported, which could be, under slightly different 16 conditions, an electrocution. 17 So for this reason, for this reason I speak in 18 opposition to this motion. 19 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 20 four, please. 21 PALMER HICKMAN (phonetic): Thank you. Palmer 22 Hickman with the IBEW. I'd like to call the question. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 24 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 25 to call the question. I notice that there are a

360 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 number of people remaining at the microphones waiting 2 to speak, but we'll proceed with the vote on the call 3 of the question. Do we have a second? 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 5 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 6 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the very 7 bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in 8 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 9 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Remember, this 10 is only on calling the question. Please record your 11 vote. 12 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 13 Voting is closed. 14 The results of the vote are: 482 in support of 15 the motion to call the question; and 39 against the 16 motion to call the question. The motion has passed. 17 That means we will return to the motion of 70- 18 8, to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision 19 No. 7697, Including any Related Portions of First 20 Revisions Nos. 78 - excuse me - Nos. 8119 and 7705. 21 To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote 22 in support of the motion, and recommend the text on 23 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 24 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 25 touch 'No'. Please record your vote.

361 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 2 The voting is closed. 3 The results of the vote are: 142 in support of 4 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 5 402 against the motion, and recommend the text on 6 Screen Two. Therefore, the motion has failed. 7 Let us now proceed with the discussion on 8 Certified Amendment No. 70-9. Microphone one, please. 9 DAN BUUCK: Thank you. Dan Buuck, representing 10 the National Association of Homebuilders, and I move 11 to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 12 7697, Including any Related Portions of First Revision 13 Nos. 8120 and 7705. 14 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 15 the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 16 Revision No. 7697, Including any Related Portions of 17 First Revisions Nos. 8120 and 7705. Is there a 18 second? 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 21 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 22 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 23 DAN BUUCK: Thank you. Dan Buuck, National 24 Association of Homebuilders, speaking in support of 25 the motion. I appreciate Mr. Hartwell's comments on

362 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the last one, but he maybe didn't see this one because 2 this has even less substantiation. 3 This is a motion - this motion here would 4 maintain the language of the 2017 edition, and does 5 not expand GFCI protection to receptacles in finished 6 portions of basements. 7 There was no technical substantiation to show 8 that people are at a higher risk in finished portions 9 of basements, compared to other finished areas of a 10 house. Flooding was brought up, but this is not your 11 - or your grandmother's basement, cinder block, plain 12 concrete, and possibly in a flood plain. FEMA and the 13 building codes have taken care of the issue with 14 building in a flood plain. You'll see houses now on 15 stilts, and those don't have flooding in the basement. 16 Damp-proofing was used previously. Now we use 17 waterproofing, and the, the moisture isn't getting 18 into the basements like it used to. 19 GFCI receptacles expanded into the unfinished 20 areas of basements 30 years ago. And this change came 21 along, and there was not a reason for it. If it's 22 been 30 years and we needed them, why haven't we heard 23 of it before. And where were the incidents shown that 24 we need it now? 25 One thing you may not have considered is in

363 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 this room, as you're voting, what happens here goes on 2 to become the law of the land, because this language 3 is adopted by states across the country. So we are 4 working as de facto legislators. I want my 5 legislators, both federal and state, to take both the 6 cost and the benefit into consideration. We don't 7 have the information to make that decision wisely. 8 So again, it will be up to the politicians at 9 the state level, when they see this, and across the 10 board at all levels of government, they are talking 11 about affordable housing. They will be asking, 12 'Where's the benefit?' and it just isn't there in the 13 documentation that is along with the code. So I ask 14 that you support the motion. Thank you. 15 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 16 you like to offer the Panel's position. 17 MICHAEL JOHNSTON:: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 18 There were no correlation issues, or conflicts 19 identified by the NEC Correlating Committee, but I 20 would like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 2, Mark 21 Hilbert, at microphone three, please. 22 MARK HILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As he 23 said, my name's Mark Hilbert, representing 24 International Association of Electrical Inspectors, 25 Chair of Panel 2. And I would just like to speak

364 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 against the motion, and offer to support the Panel's 2 work. 3 There was debate. All sides were heard - 4 whether you were for or against this - the discussion, 5 there was discussion both at the First Draft and the 6 Second Draft stage. It also helped clarify - part of 7 the substantiation at the Panel discussion was that it 8 would help to clarify what was habitable and not 9 habitable, dealing with that language, and also trying 10 to address damp and wet conditions, as Mr. Buuck 11 mentioned in his discussion. 12 So as I say, I speak in favor of the Panel's 13 work on this, and that all people were heard. The 14 vote was, again, 11 to three, so the majority of the 15 Panel voted in favor of the text as it was shown at 16 the Second Draft. 17 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 18 MARK HILBERT: Thanks, Jim. 19 JAMES QUITER: With that, we will open up 20 debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 21 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support 22 of, or against the motion. Microphone three, please. 23 JOHN MCHAMMISH: Thank you, Mr. Chair. John 24 McHammish. I serve on Code-Making Panel 2. I 25 represent the IBEW. I'm speaking against the motion.

365 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Part of the issue that was - that caused this 2 to come to be was initial public input about basements 3 that are indeed finished, but the ground surface is 4 finished concrete, or some other finished material 5 that provides a adequate ground path where a shock 6 hazard would exist, as with any concrete floor 7 basement - which, as Mr. Buuck pointed out, GFCIs have 8 been a requirement for basements in these 9 circumstances for decades. And as a result of that 10 requirement, there haven't been any incidents. Bravo 11 to the GFCIs. 12 So at what point does unfinished versus 13 finished come into play? This actually adds clarity, 14 removes ambiguity from the code, such that a $12.00 15 GFCI can now provide protection for basements. Thank 16 you. 17 JAMES QUITER: Also microphone number three. 18 BRIAN HOLLAND: Thank you. Brian Holland, 19 representing the National Electrical Manufacturers 20 Association. NEMA is opposed to the motion on 70-9. 21 We ask you to vote no, and keep the language in 22 210.8(A)(5) as approved by the Panel. Thank you. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 24 one. 25 DAN BUUCK: Thank you. Dan Buuck, National

366 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Association of Homebuilders, speaking in support of 2 the motion. Again, it wasn't just myself who spoke, 3 or voted in opposition. There were published ballot, 4 negative ballot responses, talking about lack of 5 substantiation from this, both from members of IAEI, 6 and the electrical contractors - not necessarily 7 supporting, with support from their organizations, but 8 that's where they were coming from. They did not 9 support this. 10 I - my understanding that originally, these 11 were required in the older basements because of the 12 damp problem. Water and electricity - electricity 13 don't mix. But just because there is a concrete 14 floor, that happens everywhere, in many places - it - 15 not necessarily just in the basement. Many commercial 16 occupancies have that, many commercial buildings are 17 there, GFCI's everywhere in those buildings. We're 18 not seeing that as an issue. So please support the 19 motion. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone three. 21 ALAN MANCHE: Alan Manche with Schneider 22 Electric. I rise against the motion. Water doesn't - 23 water doesn't understand the difference between a 24 finished and an unfinished basement. So it's not 25 going to stop at the door, moving across from an

367 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 unfinished space to a finished space. So when someone 2 walks into that area, the same hazard exists. It's 3 also not going to know when the water rises above the 4 receptacles, and energizes that space. So most anyone 5 can get on Google at this point in time, and, and, and 6 Google for those electrocutions, and you'll find them 7 in the basement. And, and whether it's finished or 8 unfinished - those sump pumps reside in finished and 9 unfinished spaces, and I would encourage everyone to 10 vote no. 11 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mic number two. 12 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Yes. My name is 13 Domitrovich with Eaton, and I'm speaking against the 14 motion on the floor. 15 We're talking about ground fault circuit 16 interrupter protection for personnel, due to shock, 17 electrocution. I would not like to see 18 substantiation, because most of the substantiation, as 19 a Code-Making Panel 2 member, that I see, has death 20 associated with it. 21 In our discussions at Code-Making Panel 2, and 22 our continued debates on this topic, we talked about 23 the hazards in these locations in basements - standing 24 on concrete, damp areas, wet locations, things of that 25 nature. And the - in, in these unfinished and

368 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 finished basements, which our discussion revolved 2 around how do you determine what is finished, and what 3 is unfinished, especially in today's world where 4 construction look and feel is a design aspect of the 5 area. 6 The hazards exist. We are electrical 7 professionals that understand the hazards associated 8 with electricity. And I would hope that our homes are 9 safe because of this technology, and we can save lives 10 in the future, and hopefully not have substantiation 11 for further expansion of GFCIs, if we do the right 12 thing today. Thank you. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 14 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Yeah. 15 JAMES QUITER: Mic six. 16 DAVE SHAPIRO: Dave Shapiro, myself, speaking 17 against. Personal experience - I live in a 1950s 18 house. I gutted it, and rewired it; put down tile, 19 beautiful tile on the concrete floors in the 20 downstairs. But enough moisture gets in that I want 21 GFCI protection there, and I want that for people I 22 inspect, people I might wire - because I think they're 23 in the same situation, even though it's a newly redone 24 house. And so - well, it's not completely 25 waterproofed as the NAHB might arrange for a new

369 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 house, in the best of worlds. But it's something that 2 I'm taking responsibility for. So, so think about 3 that. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mic one. 5 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, speaking for myself. 6 I'd like to call the question. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 8 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 9 to call the question. I noted there was a person 10 remaining at the microphones, waiting to speak, but 11 we'll proceed with a vote on the call of the question. 12 Do we have a second? 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 14 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 15 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the 16 bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in 17 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 18 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 19 your vote, remembering that this is only for the call 20 of the question. 21 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 22 The voting is closed. 23 Results of the vote are: 499 in support of the 24 motion to call the question; and 13 against the motion 25 to call the question - which moves us back to Motion

370 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 No. 70-9. 2 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The 3 motion on the floor is to Reject an Identifiable Part 4 of Second Revision No. 7697, Including any Related 5 Portions of First Revision Nos. 8120 and 7705. To 6 vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 7 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 8 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 9 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 10 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 11 Voting will close in five seconds. 12 The voting is closed. 13 The results of the vote are: 107 in support of 14 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 15 414 against the motion, and recommend the text on 16 Screen Two. The motion has failed. 17 Let us now proceed with discussion on Certified 18 Amending Motion No. 70-10. Microphone one, please. 19 DAN BUUCK: Dan Buuck, representing National 20 Association of Homebuilders, and I move to Reject 21 Second Revision No. 7676. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 23 the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 7676. Is 24 there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

371 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion of the motion. 3 DAN BUUCK: Thank you. Dan Buuck, National 4 Association of Homebuilders, speaking in support of 5 the motion. This motion also maintains the language 6 of the - of the 2017 edition; does not expand GFCI 7 requirements to outdoor outlets, with - and these 8 would be outlets other than the receptacles that are 9 already covered by code. And you'll see that it would 10 be for 150 volts to ground, or less; 50 amperes, or 11 less. And so this would include your air conditioning 12 condenser unit, and this has the potential of shutting 13 off air conditioning units, putting people's lives at 14 risk in hot weather, and their property at risk due to 15 high humidity and mold. Homeowners and renters will 16 yet again be the guinea pigs for these untested 17 installations. 18 It's typically, in new construction, the 19 builder who gets called when there are problems. So 20 this is something that our members will be dealing 21 with when the air conditioning goes off in the middle 22 of a humid summer day. And so I'm asking that you 23 support this motion. Again, there was very limited 24 substantiation to make this change. 25 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would

372 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 you like to offer the Panel's position? 2 MICHAEL JOHNSTON:: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 There were no correlation issues or conflicts 4 identified by the NEC Correlating Committee, but I 5 would like to refer to the Chair of Code Panel 2, Mark 6 Hilbert. I believe he's at mic three. 7 MARK HILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As he 8 said, Mark Hilbert, representing the International 9 Association of Electrical Inspectors, Chairman of 10 Panel Two. And again, I speak against the motion, and 11 in favor of the work done by the Panel. 12 This did also involve a fatality, and it 13 actually did involve a condensing unit. It was an 14 interesting one. There, there was a problem with the 15 wiring in the system to the air conditioning, as I 16 understood the substantiation, to the condenser. A 17 gentleman had come over a chain link fence, came in 18 contact with the enclosure of the condenser, which had 19 a fault, a ground fault to it, and as a result, there 20 was a fatality when he came in contact with the 21 enclosure and the, and the metal fence. 22 So again, all parts were heard. All parties 23 had ample time to discuss this at the Panel. There 24 were not issues there at, at the meetings. And this 25 one cast - it was a vote of 10 to four. Thank, Mr.

373 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Chairman. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 3 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your 4 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 5 support of, or against the motion. Microphone three, 6 please. 7 JACK LYONS: Speaking against the motion. I'm 8 Jack Lyons, from the National Electrical Manufacturing 9 Association, speaking on behalf of the Codes and 10 Standards Committee to state their opposition to the 11 motion to Reject SR 7676 related to outdoor outlets, 12 and GFCI protection. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Also microphone 14 number three. 15 KEITH WATERS: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. My 16 name is Keith Waters. I'm with Schneider Electric, 17 and I stand in opposition to the motion. 18 As Mr. Hilbert said, there was a fatality that 19 was a direct result of this change being made. Since 20 the, the ballot time, we have actually went out and 21 done field trials and field testing on these exact 22 applications. And what we have found is that the 23 concerns, and what happened in - at this fatality in, 24 in the Chicago area, is not a single incident. We 25 found applications were ground wires weren't run, and

374 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 we found applications that were shorted to the 2 condenser. So if someone had been - in the same 3 application - had touched the AC condenser and grabbed 4 a fence, a, a metal fence, they would have been the 5 path to ground; or if they just walked up and put 6 their hand on it, they would have been the path to 7 ground. So I ask the Membership to stand in 8 opposition. 9 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. And also, microphone 10 number three. 11 JOHN MCHAMMISH: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Joh 12 McHammish. I - I serve on Code-Making Panel 2, where 13 I represent the IBEW, speaking against the motion. 14 The limited substantiation of one fatality has 15 already been mentioned, and the - as Mr. Domitrovich 16 said, that's how we define substantiation, it seems. 17 But there's also other fatalities, or shocks that have 18 happened - HVAC technicians, with operations as simple 19 as changing out air filters on HVAC units. So for 20 these and the previous reasons, I speak against the 21 motion. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. And microphone 23 number one. 24 DAN BUUCK: Dan Buuck, National Association of 25 Homebuilders, speaking in support of the motion. The

375 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 tragic incident that's being cited was an existing 2 home, an older home, I believe, and it was an improper 3 installation. This is not going to end, if the - you 4 know, if these - these installations are still around, 5 this isn't going to end those problems, because these 6 older homes are more of the problem. 7 If somebody is going to do an improper 8 installation, they're not going to first run the GFCI 9 protection, and then do the improper installation; 10 they're going to leave that off, as well. So we're 11 penalizing new construction, which is done to the 12 code, and the, there's no exception in this language 13 for new construction, although I believe it applies 14 more to the existing housing stock than the new 15 construction. So I ask your support. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 17 two. 18 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Yes. My name is Thomas 19 Domitrovich, speaking in opposition to the motion on 20 the floor. I'm with Eaton, and I'm also a Code-Making 21 Panel Two member. 22 GFCIs are not there for when things go right 23 GFCIs are there for when things go wrong. And when 24 things go wrong, unfortunately with electricity, 25 people die. In my home, I have an HVAC system, a

376 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 geothermal system. And not too long ago, I had a 2 wiring issue within my, my assembly, where my two 3 pumps were energized because of a conductor that was 4 accidentally touching the enclosure. I touched those 5 two, and I received a shock. I did not die, thank 6 God. But I called my HVAC person who showed up to fix 7 the issue, and they found the wiring problem that had 8 been there for quite some time. Anybody in my house 9 could have touched those, and some of my friends 10 admire the - thank you, Larry - my cleanliness of my, 11 of my HVAC system, because we take care of it. 12 But there was a hazard there. And had I had 13 GFCI protection, the leakage current itself would have 14 found that problem, and isolated the problem, so that 15 nobody would have - so I would have been able to 16 identify the issue and, and resolve that issue. 17 GFCI protection saves lives. There is no 18 reason that we should die in our own home from 19 electricity, with the technology we have today. 20 Please vote against this motion that is on the floor. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 22 one. 23 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry speaking for myself 24 as a - one of many electrical professionals in this 25 room. I want to call the question, please.

377 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 2 JAMES QUITER: That was almost testifying 3 before calling the question. So be careful about 4 that. 5 (laughter) 6 JAMES QUITER: There was a motion from the 7 floor to call the question. I noticed there were a 8 couple of people remaining at the microphones waiting 9 to speak, but we'll proceed with the vote on the call 10 of the question. Do we have a second? 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 12 JAMES QUITER: We, we do have a second. In 13 order to vote on this motion, please scroll down to 14 the bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote 15 in support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 16 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 17 your vote. And again, this is only on the call of the 18 question. 19 And our voting time is shortening, with a - 20 voting will be closed in five seconds. 21 (laughter) 22 JAMES QUITER: The voting is closed. 23 Results of the vote: 497 in the support of the 24 motion to call the question; and 7 against the motion 25 to call the question. The motion has passed, which

378 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 returns us to Motion 70-10. 2 So let me restate the motion. The motion on 3 the floor is to Reject Second Revision No. 7676. To 4 vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 5 support, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 6 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 7 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 8 record your vote. 9 Five seconds. 10 And the voting is closed. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 12 The results of the vote are: 122 in support of 13 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 14 402 against the motion, and recommend the text on 15 Screen Two. The motion has failed. 16 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 17 Certified Amending Motion No. 70-11. Okay, back at 18 microphone number five. 19 RANDY DOLLAR: My name is Randy Dollar. I'm 20 representing the American Circuit Breaker 21 Manufacturers Association. And I make a motion to 22 Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 23 1381. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There is a motion on 25 the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public

379 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Comment No. 1381. Is there a second? 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 3 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 4 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 5 RANDY DOLLAR: Okay. Again, my name is Randy 6 Dollar, representing American Circuit Breaker 7 Manufacturers Association. 8 I speak in support of the motion. AFCI 9 expansion to cover all, 120 volt, single phase, 15 and 10 20 amp circuits in dwelling units has been over 20 11 years in the making. This was, and is a safety driven 12 effort that originally began as a result of findings 13 by the CPSC. This CAM simply extends AFCI protection 14 to, to the few areas of dwelling units not covered 15 under the 2017 NEC. 16 The most recent USFA fire statistics covers the 17 range of 2007 to 2016. That report shows residential 18 building electrical malfunction fire trends. The 19 report summarizes these trends as a 22% decrease in 20 fires, a 3% decrease in deaths, 32% decrease in 21 injuries, and a 39% decrease in dollar loss. The 22 AFCI, along with other safety features built in by the 23 NEC, have certainly contributed to those reductions. 24 And I ask for your support for this motion. 25 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would

380 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 you like to offer the Panel's position? 2 MICHAEL JOHNSTON:: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 There were no correlation issues or conflicts 4 identified by the NEC Correlating Committee. I would 5 like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 2, Mark 6 Hilbert. I believe he's at mic, microphone three. 7 MARK HILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you 8 said, Mark Hilbert, representing International 9 Association of Electrical Inspectors, Code-Making 10 Panel 2 Chair. 11 Again, I support the work of the code-making 12 panel, and speak against the motion. This was 13 debated, both in the First Draft and Second Draft 14 stages. It passed the meeting with a simple majority 15 at the First Draft, and failed at the ballot vote 16 stage, with a vote of nine to five, and one not 17 returned; we had one additional member in the First 18 Draft stage. 19 The comment, 1381, was undertaken during the 20 Second Draft stage, and failed to obtain the simple 21 majority by a very narrow margin at the Second Draft. 22 Both sides were heard, positions were well stated 23 throughout both the First and Second Drafts. And so I 24 support the Panel's work on this. Thank you, Mr. 25 Chairman.

381 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 2 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 3 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 4 support of, or against the motion. I see lots of 5 people standing. Let's make sure we don't have any 6 'me, too's' unless you just say, 'Me, too.' 7 Microphone number two. 8 BILL TIMMONS (phonetic): Thank you. My name 9 is Bill Timmons. I'm from La Grande (phonetic), and I 10 am speaking in opposition of the motion. 11 We at La Grande are committed to the 12 development of electrical products aimed at making 13 homes safer. However, we - we believe that decisions 14 on mandates for use of these safety products should be 15 based on facts. No data was presented that supports 16 the idea that AFCIs have reduced the number of 17 residential electrical fires. 18 The leadership of Panel 2 asked the Fire 19 Protection Research Foundation to collect data to 20 determine the best methods of protecting branch 21 circuit wiring in dwelling units, against electrical 22 arcing. The project revealed, quote, "There is 23 uncertainty regarding the residential electrical fire 24 problem, and the effectiveness of branch circuit 25 protection devices such as AFCIs."

382 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The Research Foundation Project further 2 acknowledged, again quote, "The most significant 3 problem with residential electrical fire data is that 4 nearly all the currently available public data is 5 lacking in quality and accuracy, and is relatively 6 unusable for data analytics in its current state." 7 The same Research Foundation is planning a 8 workshop in the fall to determine the best way to 9 collect data to provide answers on AFCI effectiveness. 10 Why should we expand the AFCI requirement before this 11 data is known? The Panel should take into 12 consideration upcoming Research Foundation findings 13 before proceeding with any expansion of AFCI 14 requirements. I urge you to vote against this motion. 15 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 16 three. 17 LORI KELLY (phonetic): Thank you, Mr. Chair. 18 I'm Lori Kelly from La Grand, and I am speaking in 19 opposition to the proposal. I'm reading comments 20 submitted by Jane Allred, the Chief Electrical 21 Inspector for the state of Wyoming. Jane has over 15 22 years' experience as an electrical inspector; has been 23 a Master Electrician in Wyoming; and a Journeyman in 24 Idaho. She holds ICC certifications as an electrical 25 and building inspector, and holds a Master Electrical

383 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Inspector certification from IAEI; and serves as the 2 Secretary and Treasurer of the Eastern Idaho Division 3 of the IAEI. 4 Jane was not able to attend today, but asked 5 that her testimony be read, given her strong feelings 6 against the AFCI expansion. 7 'Since the introduction of the AFCI breaker 8 into the NEC, there have been numerous issues. Some 9 of those were addressed with the introduction of the 10 combination of AFCI breaker. But overall, the 11 technology has proven to measure up to the complicated 12 ways of the - the ways that electricity is being used 13 in modern homes. Due to harmonics, motor inrush 14 current, heating elements, LED lighting, and other 15 energy saving advances, these devices have cost the 16 consumer, the electrical contractor, and the general 17 contractor massive amounts of money and nuisance - 18 with nuisance tripping, and callbacks. 19 Some claim that appliances are the problem, but 20 I feel that the AFCI technology needs to be improved, 21 and proven to be effective before we use code 22 requirements to force contractors to install them. 23 They are costly, and damage the reputation of 24 contractors as a result of their constant nuisance 25 tripping. The intended protection is not being

384 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 provided because homeowners, when confronted with 2 nuisance tripping, simply remove their $35.00 breaker, 3 and replace it with a $3.00 non-GF - AFCI breaker. 4 GFCI protection has been around for decades, is very 5 well vetted, and has proven time and again to be a 6 true safety measure for a user of electricity. 7 However, this proposal will further push installers to 8 use the dual AFCI/GFCI breaker in order to save time 9 and money, and when - when wiring an - residential 10 residence. So as a result, when the AFCI causes 11 nuisance tripping, the homeowner will simply remove 12 the dual breaker, and replace it with the standard 13 breaker, and now not only have they lost AFCI 14 protection, they've lost the valuable GFCI protection, 15 as well. The expansion of these breakers will not 16 alleviate any safety hazard, but will in fact, create 17 a safety hazard that's very serious." So thank you, 18 again, for your consideration against this motion. 19 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 20 one, please. 21 BRETT LARSON: My name is Brett Larson. I 22 represent Schneider Electric, and I stand in support 23 of this motion. 24 There has been a, as discussed earlier, a 25 significant decrease in the fires due to electrical

385 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 malfunction, and the AFCIs are a key contributor to 2 that reduction in fires. 3 This motion supports the protection of 4 electrical circuits by AFCI in garages. AFCI - or 5 FEMA published a report on residential building fires 6 that started in the garage. And so let me share a few 7 highlights from that report. 8 An estimated 6,600 residential building garage 9 fires were reported in United States Fire Departments 10 each year, and cause an estimated 30 deaths, 400 11 injuries, and $457 million in property loss. Garage 12 fires result in substantially more injuries per 1,000 13 fires, and greater dollar loss per fire than non- 14 garage fires. Fires in the garage take longer to 15 detect, become larger in size, and cause more 16 widespread damage. The leading cause of residential 17 building fires, or garage fires, was electric - 18 electrical malfunction. Electrical arcing was the 19 most common heat source in residential building garage 20 fires. 21 This motion seeks to place AFCI protection on 22 garage electrical circuits in order to eliminate these 23 FEMA statistics. I encourage you to vote in support 24 of this motion. Thank you. 25 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number

386 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 six, please. 2 MIKE BENNETT: Mr. Chairman, my name is Mike 3 Bennett. I'm the CEO of the Arc of San Antonio, so 4 welcome, all of you to our fair city. 5 I'm here today to speak on behalf of special 6 needs individuals. These are folks that we serve 7 across the United States. 8 JAMES QUITER: And are you for, or against the 9 motion? 10 MIKE BENNETT: Sorry - I'm against the motion, 11 and I'm against the motion for the very simple reason 12 of accessibility. The folks that we serve have a 13 number of issues in trying to deal with the simple 14 tasks of everyday life. One of those would be 15 responding to a power outage at a, an electrical 16 socket, whether that's used for personal hygiene, 17 cooking, or very often for medical equipment. 18 Our position is that moving the accessibility 19 of this reset from the point of use to out in the 20 garage or down in the basement puts a significant 21 number of folks at risk, in terms of being able to 22 handle that. And our goal is to help special needs 23 individuals be as independent, and able to live a life 24 just like the rest of us, as they wish. 25 So we ask you all to deal with that issue on

387 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the basis of accessibility, because it will be a 2 significant problem for the folks that we serve. 3 As just a personal point, I look across this 4 audience today, and I keep in mind that for the 5 special needs individuals we serve, their 6 accessibility issues go on for their entire life. But 7 there are many folks in the room who look just like 8 me. They're getting towards that part of their life 9 where accessibility may also become an issue. And so 10 I would suggest that as important as it is to us in 11 the special needs community, we all think about the 12 days when it might not be too simple for us to get out 13 there and deal with that button. Thank you for your 14 consideration. 15 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 16 three, please. 17 ANDY BARBER: Good eve - good evening. My name 18 is Andy Barber. I'm with Generation Homes out of 19 Charleston, South Carolina. I am representing myself 20 in here, speaking against this motion. 21 I think I'm looking around the room - I'm the 22 only one of my kind in here. I'm the contractor. I'm 23 the, I'm the guy on the front lines that's taking the 24 heat for all of this. And, and I'm, I'm here to tell 25 you, there's a lot of heat.

388 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The - I'm not - you, you know, I look around, 2 and I appreciate what's being done. But I'm not an 3 engineer, a manufacturer and inspector, or anybody 4 like that. I'm the guy that's standing toe to toe 5 with the homeowner at the end of the day, that has to 6 explain why their breakers keep tripping, and why 7 their breakers can't be tested, and why we're having 8 these issues. While I appreciate the intent - we're 9 all here - I serve on a lot of different code 10 committees. We're all here to save lives and 11 property. But I think we're going about it the wrong 12 way with, with the AFCI, particularly with this 13 expansion. 14 I appreciate the intent, and the engineering, 15 and the testing. This technology is just not ready 16 for this type of use. I just - I just can't get 17 behind it, in all that I do in codes. We've heard the 18 words 'nuisance tripping', 'annoyance trips'. I've 19 even heard 'em called 'safety checks'. I call it a 20 product defect. I just - this product just does not 21 perform as advertised, in the real world. When you 22 get similar things, similar items out there that cause 23 wave forms that match these arcs that they're supposed 24 to detect, you wind up with these nuisance trippings - 25 things such as televisions, computer equipment, small

389 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 motors, small devices, and even, as the previous 2 gentleman stated, medical equipment. I mean, these - 3 you're just dealing with unreliable technology. 4 And the outcome is, as the lady before me at 5 this podium said, homeowners are going in and digging 6 these things out. I've seen it firsthand. I've been 7 in my clients' houses who have electrical problems, 8 who have come back after my electrician left, and 9 pulled the panel apart, and changed these outlets 10 because they're so aggravated with 'em. And our 11 standard answer is, 'Well, there's nothing we can do 12 about it. It's code. We can't test it. We can't 13 make it right.' 14 So that's, that's my outlook on this. I really 15 can't support any, any expansion of AFCI circuitry at 16 this point in time, and I urge everyone to vote 17 against this motion. Thank you. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 19 one. 20 FRED HARTWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fred 21 Hartwell, speaking for myself. But I think, you know 22 - first of all, I, I think it's important to note that 23 Code Panel 2 voted for this almost overwhelmingly. 24 They (unintelligible) -- 25 JAMES QUITER: For or against - before you get

390 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 there. Speaking for, or against the motion? 2 FRED HARTWELL: I'm, I'm speaking in favor of 3 the motion. Thank you. It - the, this change failed 4 by a single vote of obtaining a two-thirds vote in 5 Panel 2 - a single vote. And I think that the - we 6 should, we should move towards completing what was 7 started that - well, almost 20 years ago. 8 And I will say that in Massachusetts, you, you 9 know, we - because we try to be in place, enforcing 10 the code on January 1 of a named code year, which 11 means we are very actively now in the process of 12 looking at the Second Draft Reports and so forth, and 13 preparing whether we should amend various code 14 provisions, or not. And one of the things that we 15 have now, the Massachusetts Committee has overwhelming 16 voted, is to in effect, execute this change. The - we 17 will be - we are assuming that the change will fail 18 ballot again, by failing two-thirds here, and it will 19 not go into the Massachusetts Code. 20 However, the Massachusetts Code, in the, the, 21 the 2020 Massachusetts Code, enforceable January 1 - 22 we'll, we'll see; the - we have yet to go through a 23 public comment period, but it is likely, based on the 24 overwhelming vote already taken, that that edition of 25 the code will apply AFCI to all dwelling outlets, as

391 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 anticipated in this particular motion. I support it. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone six, 3 please. 4 JEFF TERRY (phonetic): Hi. My name is Jeff 5 Terry from Raske (phonetic) Partners, and I'm here on 6 behalf of the La Grande. And I actually appreciate 7 the previous speaker's mention of state activity. 8 (unintelligible) 9 JAMES QUITER: Are you for, or against. 10 JEFF TERRY: I am against. Apologies. When 11 the panel members draft the code, they're not 12 expecting to have the NEC altered during state 13 adoptions. When the NEC is modified by states, they 14 may not understand the full picture of the 15 requirements, and it may not lead to a decrease in 16 safety - or may lead to a decrease in safety in those 17 states. There are 17 states that have modified the 18 NEC to lessen the areas where AFCIs are required. 19 That's 17 separate opportunities to somehow create 20 unintentional situations as they're modifying the code 21 to push back against expansions. 22 Inconsistencies between states introduce 23 confusion. They trust that the electrical 24 professionals developing the NEC have used data, and 25 known solutions as central to the development of the

392 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 code. When states move to modify the NEC, it causes 2 an erosion of this trust with the public. 3 The expansion of AFCI has been politicized to 4 such an extent that it has undermined NFPA's and 5 stated objectives for advocacy and support of uniform 6 adoption nationwide of the NEC as the best way to 7 increase safety. This is because the evidence based 8 data to support this position does not exist, and 9 cannot be delivered. Stakeholders at the state level 10 eventually see this, and push back the only way that 11 they can, which is by amending out the requirements 12 that they are sold to them as being for their own 13 good. 14 If one-third of state's experts and electrical 15 professionals are reversing the work of panels, it's 16 time to listen to them. Let's make sure the states 17 don't have to edit out mistakes. Panel 2 had it 18 right. Do not expand problematic AFCIs. I urge you 19 to vote against this motion. Thank you. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone two, 21 please. 22 MARK GOODSON: Yes. My name is Mark Goodson. 23 I'm a Consulting Engineer. I appear here today on 24 behalf of La Grande. I sit on 1033, which is 25 requirements for fire investigators, and also sit on a

393 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 NFPA panel that doesn't have a number yet, for fire 2 investigation units. I am against what is being 3 proposed. 4 First off, reference has been made to the FEMA 5 report. All those reports have to rely on what's 6 called an NFIRS Report - National Fire Incident 7 Reporting System. Sadly, those things were a 8 disaster. It depends on who's on duty that day at the 9 fire house. We've all seen the reports - unspecified 10 electrical short; carelessly discarded smoking 11 material. The truth is, unless somebody gets hurt, or 12 killed, or there's an indication of arson, the fires 13 are not investigated the right way; the data is 14 meaningless. You, you can't work off that. 15 Number one - number two, I, I have mentioned - 16 you know, I, I spent three years in grad school at a, 17 at a medical examiner's office, part of the medical 18 school. I do tons of work in electrical deaths. What 19 we're seeing is people are going to pull the AFCIs out 20 because they nuisance trip. They'll replace it with a 21 cheap thermomagnetic breaker. Then all of a sudden, 22 they have zero ground fault protection. This is - 23 this is not theory. I don't have to - this is, this 24 has already happened. 25 If you really want to do something about the

394 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 electrical fire prevention and you make circuit 2 breakers, why not make the circuit breaker, the 3 thermomagnetic portion, work at the same temperature 4 requirement as you have for the arc fault in the 5 ground fault interrupter? Why, why stop 'em, you 6 know, at some high temperature. What happens when a 7 breaker panel's outside, and it gets cold outside, and 8 you overload the circuit? The breaker doesn't 9 respond. It, it's just, just not good business. 10 In terms of this 20 year technology, the 20 11 year technology has not kept up with what's happening 12 in the house. What happens when you have a variable 13 frequency drive running your refrigerator, or has an 14 inverter on there, that - you have a compressor that 15 runs all the time. Have these been tested for? I can 16 tell you, in my own house, I had to throw out 10 17 pounds of trout, and you know, many pounds of venison 18 because the AFCI tripped for no reason. Anyway -- 19 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 20 MARK GOODSON: Yeah. That's - you talk about 21 getting somebody's -- 22 (laughter) 23 MARK GOODSON: -- getting somebody's dander up 24 -- 25 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: (unintelligible)

395 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MARK GOODSON: -- that, that results of a good 2 fishing trip. 3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 4 MARK GOODSON: But yeah, the - the - I went in 5 and retrofitted the AFCIs, and it was a mistake. The 6 things aren't ready. I urge rejection of this. Thank 7 you. 8 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 9 the motion. 10 JAMES QUITER: Okay. So I'm, I'm sensing that 11 we're getting a lot of repetition, so let's try to 12 avoid the repetition, and the side stories, and move 13 on with the, with the technical matters. Microphone 14 number three, please. 15 DALE BADINSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My 16 name is Dale Badinksi. I'm speaking on behalf of 17 myself. I'm a retired IBEW, NECA trained journeyman 18 electrician, as well as hold a electrical, master 19 electrical contractor's license in New Orleans, 20 Louisiana, for the last 41 years. And I don't want to 21 be a 'me, too'. 22 JAMES QUITER: And you're for, or against? 23 DALE BADINSKI: I'm against. Yeah. I don't 24 want to be a 'me, too', but a lot of the things that I 25 wanted to cover were covered. However, I, I think

396 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 that the, the electrical contractor's really taking 2 the brunt of this, and I think that the, the key word 3 here with the exchanging of the AFCI breaker with a 4 regular breaker is, is dual, dual protection. When we 5 lose the GFI protection, which is a proven technology 6 - and it's been talked about here for the, for the 7 last hour or so - it, it's terrible. It puts 8 everybody at risk in the house. 9 The other thing I, I wanted to bring up is that 10 the incompatibility of these breakers with common 11 household products. You know, the nuisance tripping 12 can really be serious. And nuisance tripping can be a 13 major issue for senior citizens and the disabled. 14 AFCI breakers are often located outside, in the 15 basement, in the garage. Resetting a breaker can be a 16 very difficult task for them. And, and what if that 17 circuit has respirators or, or other type of critical 18 loads that these people need? You know, not only - 19 not only does this inconvenience them, but it actually 20 impacts their quality of life. 21 Nuisance tripping can cause property damage. 22 The, the gentleman he indicated he lost 50 pounds of 23 trout - can be, can be very devastating and, and 24 costly for the homeowner. Being a, an amateur radio 25 operator, we have experienced AFCI tripping not only

397 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 in our own homes, but at our neighbor's homes, as 2 well, indicating that not only do we have an EMI 3 problem, but we've got an RFI problem. And when we 4 piggyback proven technology with GFIC, that's not 5 good. 6 Electrical arcs are serious threats to both 7 life and property. And I comment the industry for 8 trying to address that. But until the industry can 9 create a device that is totally immune to EMI and RFI, 10 can be compatible with all home electrical products, 11 and can effectively differentiate between normal 12 electrical arcs, and those that can cause a fire, we 13 should not move forward with this motion at this point 14 in time, to add additional circuits. 15 And just as a footnote - I've got nine seconds 16 - this issue, and the things we talked about affect 17 everybody in this room that lives in a dwelling. 18 Thank you very much for your time, and your 19 consideration. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone - 21 microphone number four, please. 22 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 23 International. I call the question. 24 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: Yeah. 25 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: Second.

398 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: Yeah. 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 3 (applause) 4 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 5 to call the question. I notice that there are a 6 number of people remaining at the microphones waiting 7 to speak, but we'll proceed with a vote on the call of 8 the question. Do we have a second? 9 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: Second. 10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: Second. 11 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order 12 to move - vote on this motion, please scroll down to 13 the bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote 14 in support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 15 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 16 your vote. 17 Five seconds. 18 The voting is closed. 19 The results of the vote are: 386 in support of 20 the motion to call the question; and 102 against the 21 motion to call the question. The motion has carried. 22 We will return to Motion 70-11. 23 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The 24 motion on the floor is to Accept an Identifiable Part 25 of Public Comment No. 1381. To vote, touch the 'vote'

399 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 button. If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 2 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch yes. If 3 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 4 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 5 vote. 6 Voting will close in five seconds. 7 The voting's closed. 8 The results of the vote are: 297 in support of 9 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 218 10 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 11 Two. The motion has carried. 12 As mentioned earlier, we have a hard stop at 13 six o'clock. I'm going to see whether we get the next 14 one in, or not. If we don't, we will make our hard 15 stop, and pick it up again when we reconvene at 6:30. 16 So let's proceed with the discussion on 17 Certifying - Certified Amending Motion 70-12. 18 Microphone four, I think, please. 19 HOWARD HERNDON: This is Howard Herndon with 20 Professional Electrical Apparatus Reconditioners 21 League. I'd like to make a motion on 70.12 to Reject 22 an Identifiable Part of the Second Revision 7656. 23 JAMES QUITER: 56 or 57? 24 HOWARD HERNDON: 57 - I'm sorry. 25 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Thank you. There's a

400 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 motion on the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of 2 the Second Revision 7657. Is there a second? 3 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: Second. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. We do have a second. 5 Please proceed with the discussion on the motion. 6 HOWARD HERNDON: Item 3 of the text as it is in 7 the proposed NEC would seem to be fairly easy, because 8 it seems like we're looking at ground fault 9 protection. And we've kind of beat ground fault 10 protection up all afternoon. 11 But realize, this is branch circuit ground 12 fault protection -- 13 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 14 HOWARD HERNDON: -- which could include larger 15 feeder devices, such as 1200 amps and above. So 16 consequently, if I have a bolted pressure switch, or 17 some type of large feeder breaker, I cannot work on 18 that ground fault protection system, and it cannot be 19 reconditioned. We would agree that a arc fault 20 circuit interrupter, such as a 20 amp single pole, 21 should not be reconditioned, and neither should a 20 22 amp single pole ground fault circuit interrupter be 23 reconditioned. 24 So Item 3 is the real item in question, and we 25 would like to move to strike that from the 2020

401 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 edition. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 3 you like to offer the Panel's position? 4 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 5 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 6 the NEC Correlating Committee. I would like to defer 7 to the Chair of Code-Making Panel 2, Mark Hilbert, I 8 believe at microphone three. 9 MARK HILBERT: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, 10 Mark Hilbert, representing International Association 11 of Electrical Inspectors, Chair of Panel 2. And 12 again, I speak against the motion, and in favor of the 13 Panel's work on this. We have a number of 14 manufacturers on the panel that dealt with the global 15 request to look at which equipment could be 16 reconditioned, and which couldn't. And like I said, 17 there was sufficient debate on it, on both sides. And 18 actually, it was a unanimous vote in favor of the text 19 on the right side, in Screen Two. Thank you, Mr. 20 Chairman. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 22 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your 23 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 24 support of, or against the motion. We'll start with 25 microphone one.

402 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 2 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. 3 Prohibiting the reconditioning of any equipment with 4 ground fault protection of equipment is overreaching. 5 And it's going to have unintended consequences. 6 While the first two list items prohibit 7 reconditioning of small devices, like AFCIs and GFCIs, 8 GFPE is considerably different. This prohibition 9 applies to equipment that supplies branch circuits of 10 a thousand amps or more, on solidly grounded, Y 11 systems between 150 volts to ground, and 600, 600 12 volts to - phase to phase. 13 There was no substantiation provided as to why 14 reconditioning equipment that contains GFP would be 15 unsafe in any way, but that's what the language 16 prohibits. It not only prohibits reconditioning of 17 the ground fault protection of equipment components, 18 but any equipment that provides ground fault 19 protection of equipment. If that protection is 20 provided in a type of equipment that would otherwise 21 be considered suitable for reconditioning, this 22 language will now prohibit it. 23 I support the motion on the floor. Thank you. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 25 two.

403 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 2 is Jim Dollard. I represent the International 3 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in 4 opposition to the motion on the floor. 5 The maker of the motion referred to feeders, 6 and you know, potentially services, saying that this 7 language would, would impact that equipment. It would 8 not. It would not. The scope of Article 210 is 9 limited to branch circuits. And as the previous 10 speaker mentioned, it would be limited to disconnects 11 for those branch circuits rated at a thousand amps or 12 more, and essentially, Y connected secondaries at 480, 13 277. 14 Those are complicated systems. It's not a 15 single device. They're listed systems, and this will 16 prohibit them from being reconditioned. 17 I speak in opposition to the motion on the 18 floor. This is the, the same thing that we went 19 through before. It's reconditioned equipment. The 20 Correlating Committee submitted global public comments 21 to each code-making panel, and each code-making panel 22 went on a case by case basis through all of the 23 equipment under their purview. And I support the 24 actions of Code-Making Panel 2. I urge this body to 25 reject the motion on the floor. Thank you.

404 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 2 five, please. 3 RYAN MCCLARNEN (phonetic): Hi. I'm Ryan 4 McClarnen, and with Utility Relay Company. We are for 5 the motion. So similar to one of the other 6 commenters, we're in support of the general intent. 7 We believe we understand the general intent. But the 8 wording - equipment, provides ground fault protection 9 of equipment, can refer to many different types of 10 equipment. So we believe it's intended for riveted, 11 molded case circuit breakers. We do not believe it's 12 intended for power circuit breakers. Power circuit 13 breakers can feed branch circuits - so not feeders, 14 but branch circuits. 15 Power circuit breakers are permitted elsewhere 16 in this document to be reconditioned. So right there, 17 we have a conflict. 18 So basically, if - if you look at it the way 19 it's worded, any power circuit breaker that, that 20 feeds a branch circuit, that has ground fault 21 protection integral to it, cannot be reconditioned. 22 And that, that - I don't think that's the intent. 23 Again, we're for the intent, but we believe 24 that the wording is just not specific enough. We 25 think this wording will result in facilities

405 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 neglecting to recondition equipment, where that might 2 be the only safe option. So we encourage you, and 3 urge you to vote for this motion. 4 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Microphone number three, 5 please. 6 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Yes. My name is Thomas 7 Domitrovich. I'm with Eaton, also a Code-Making Panel 2 8 member. And I speak in opposition to the motion that's 9 on the floor. 10 As a manufacturer, I - we manufacturer, Eaton 11 manufactures many different types of devices that 12 provide ground fault protection of equipment, and they 13 do include the thousand amp and above devices. But they 14 also include those 30 million amp devices that you see 15 on de-icing and, and those outdoor circuits that require 16 GFPE. We also see GFPE multi-case type of solutions 17 used in marinas, where we have requirements for ground 18 fault protection of equipment up to 100 million amps. 19 This technology is not limited to large, over 20 current protection devices, but it extends well beyond 21 that. And we're talking about equipment that is there 22 for life safety, and to protect property. And these are 23 digital, electronic type of devices that should not be 24 taken apart and reconditioned in the field without 25 proper supervision, on - at all.

406 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 So that is why Code-Making Panel 2, and we had 2 unanimous support to prohibit the ground fault 3 protection of equipment from being reconditioned. And I 4 fully support what the Code-Making Panel did. And 5 again, I urge everyone to vote against this motion 6 that's on the floor. Thank you. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is anyone who's 8 currently seated planning on speaking to this? If not, 9 we'll go through the rest of the speakers. If you are, 10 please let me know so that we can figure out when we're 11 going to call our break. But before we do that, I'm 12 going to go to microphone four first. I'm going to go 13 there twice in a row, and let the gentleman with the 14 cane speak first. 15 MARK ODIE (phonetic): Mark Odie with Pearson 16 Engineering, and I'm in support of this motion. A 17 thirty million ampere GFPE is not what we're talking 18 about here. When I go to 210.15, similar to what I do 19 in 215.10, and 230.95, this is larger equipment, starts 20 at a thousand amps or greater. I'm not going to have 21 GFPE on, on a branch circuit, unless it's part of, for 22 example, in, in 517.17, where I have to have a second 23 level of GFPE. This very easily can be done as 24 reconditioned equipment. And there are requirements for 25 reconditioning this type of equipment. You're not

407 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 talking about a 30 million ampere device here. You're 2 talking about something that's going to be basically 3 adjustable up to 1200 amperes, and, and one second. 4 And, and this certainly can be reconditioned. I don't 5 see any restriction for this. 6 And, and for somebody to think that GFPE is 7 protection of personnel, it's not. GFCI is protection 8 of personnel. So I, I, I believe that this is something 9 that we should get behind, and pass this recommended 10 text. Thank you. 11 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. And also at microphone 12 number four. 13 RANDY HUNTER: I'm Randy Hunter, representing 14 Hunter Technical Services, and I'm in favor of the 15 motion. 16 I've been following this remanufactured topic 17 throughout the code, and I'm very concerned - I'm not 18 going to speak toward any technical issues. I want to 19 talk about the fact that this material was added during 20 the second phase, the comment phase, this language you 21 see up - is - it was added during that phase. It is 22 actually new material. 23 They've referenced - and some of the people today 24 have spoke about new material. I respect them very 25 well. But this material that you see up in front of us

408 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 now appeared from public - or from no public comment, no 2 public input, no First Revision. It was created as a 3 Second Revision only. And the original public input 4 they're trying to relate everything to regarding 5 rebuilt, remanufactured, only dealt with listing, and 6 the labeling. It had no prohibition, and did not name 7 any type of equipment that cannot be reconditioned. 8 So as such, I feel that all of this is new 9 material, and therefore should be held until the 2023 10 cycle, as per the regulations of NFPA. Thank you. 11 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number two. 12 FRED HARTWELL: Fred Hartwell, speaking for 13 myself. I beg to differ. I think the intended, at 14 least for sure, the intended application of Item 3 here 15 is your typical 30 million amp, molded case circuit 16 breaker with GFPE in it, as is mandated for like, de- 17 icing protection on a roof, or there are a number of 18 places where the - also on a number of kinds of pipe 19 tracing, that - for freeze protection. I have several 20 of these breakers on my - at my own house, for that 21 exact purpose. These are not suitable for 22 reconditioning. 23 I - and I think the application of this for, for 24 - yeah - I understand - for very large circuits there, 25 there - we get back into this kind of residual current

409 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 protection. But I think that is not where this is going 2 to be applied. This is - I think clearly, this is about 3 the, the molded case circuit breaker, and small sizes. 4 I think we should support this. It, it, it can be 5 straightened out if necessary, but I think we should 6 support this. 7 JAMES QUITER: Microphone three, please. 8 BRIAN HOLLAND: Thank you, Sir. Brian Holland 9 with the National Electrical Manufacturers Association. 10 NEMA is opposed to the motion made on CAM 70-12. We ask 11 you to vote no, and keep the recommended text that you 12 see up on Screen Number Two. Thank you. 13 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. We're at microphone 14 two, please. 15 BARRY RODGERS: I'm Barry Rodgers. I represent 16 Schneider Electric. We're against this action. We 17 support the action taken by the Code Panel to include 18 this language. 19 As industry, we recognize ground fault systems 20 are safety critical, and must operate as designed. And 21 as Mr. Domitrovich has said, these systems are very 22 complex, and we believe that reconditioning, without the 23 in depth knowledge of the technology and product 24 standards can pose a safety risk to people, and - can 25 pose a safety risk to people. Therefore, my safety

410 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 concern includes safety of workers, as well as safety of 2 occupants and facilities. I urge you to vote against 3 this motion. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 5 discussion on Motion 70-12, to Reject an Identifiable 6 Part or Second Revision to number six - 7657? Mr. 7 Johnston. 8 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 9 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Before we vote, let me 10 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 11 Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 7657. 12 To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote 13 in support of the motion, and recommend the text on 14 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 15 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 16 'No'. Please record your votes. 17 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 18 The voting is closed. 19 The results of the vote are: 47 in support of 20 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; 411 21 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 22 Two. The motion has failed. 23 At this point, we will take a break for 30 24 minutes. And a, a reminder that the concessions close 25 at 7 p.m., so if you're planning on getting food for the

411 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 latter sessions of this, this event, please do it now. 2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 3 JAMES QUITER: Thirty minutes, please. 4 (BREAK) 5 (MUSIC) 6 (END OF PART THREE) 7 AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION OF 8 9 2019 NFPA TECHNICAL MEETING 10 11 THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2019 12 13 PART 4 14 15 16 (MUSIC) 17 JAMES QUITER: I do have a couple things I want 18 to say. Under no circumstances do we want to curtail 19 what people are offering in terms of testimony, or 20 curtail any facts. But we do want to curtail much of 21 the 'me, too' testimony. If some - if you have 22 something you want to say that somebody has already 23 said, please state your position, but please don't 24 repeat it all. We have many items left to get through 25 yet tonight, and I'm sure the people at the very end

412 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 of the session would like somebody to still be in the 2 room when we get there. So please consider everyone 3 who is involved in the process, and limit your 4 comments to those that need to be said in order for 5 people to have the correct hearing. 6 With that, let us now proceed with the 7 discussion on Certified Amending Motion No. 70-13. 8 Microphone four. 9 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. I'm Chris Hunter 10 with Serra Wire. I'd like to make a Motion to Reject 11 Second Revision No. 7657. 12 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 13 the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 7657. Is 14 there a second? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 16 JAMES QUITER: I heard a second. 17 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. I'm Chris Hunter 18 with Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. 19 This language appeared for the first time in the 20 Second Draft. It was not based on any similar 21 language or requirement that was considered in the 22 First Draft. There was no public input, no First 23 Revision, nor any other appearance of any language 24 like this in the First Draft. This conflicts with the 25 requirements in the NFPA Regulations governing the

413 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 development of NFPA Standards. 4.4.4.2 says public 2 comments must be related to material that has received 3 public review, either through the submission of public 4 input, committee input, or correlating input, or 5 through the First Revisions. 6 Related to this, the Regulations also state, in 7 4.4.4.8.3.1, Criteria for Hold - The Technical 8 Committee shall reject, but hold for processing as 9 public input for the next revision cycle, in 10 accordance with 4.4.8.1(D), a public comment that 11 meets any of the following criteria: a) it would 12 introduce a concept that has not had public review by 13 being included in a related input or a First 14 Revisions, as shown in the First Draft. 15 The code-making panel should have held the 16 public comments that suggested this new language, but 17 they did not. Requirements prohibiting or restricting 18 remanufactured equipment appeared in over a dozen 19 places in the NEC, without public review; without an 20 opportunity for all of the stakeholders who will be 21 affected by these requirements to contribute their 22 expertise, their concerns, their objections, or their 23 support. 24 This conflicts with the NFPA Regulations, and 25 we should take this opportunity to correct this

414 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 failure of the process, and require all of these 2 changes to follow the established, fair process with 3 adequate public review. Thank you. Please support 4 the motion. 5 JAMES QUITER: Mr. Johnston, would you like to 6 offer the Panel's position? 7 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The, 8 the issue of new material - I know there's several 9 that are going to speak to that, that issue. The - 10 there were multiple code panels that received public 11 comments. The majority of the code panels did. And 12 it was outlined very nicely in the public comments 13 what public input this was tied to. And the fact that 14 PI 2935 had to be acted on in a way to move things 15 beyond just Chapter One, because it had global 16 implications across the entire NEC. And we explained 17 this when we covered the definition of recondition. 18 So the Correlating Committee reviewed the 19 complete record of both public input and comments, in 20 addition to the work of the panels, which is a 21 responsibility to police for new material. And the 22 Correlating Committee found no new material. So I'm 23 going to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 2, Mark 24 Hilbert, to respond to the technical side of it. I 25 think he's at mic three.

415 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MARK HILBERT: Yes, Sir. Yes, Mr. Chairman, 2 for the last time tonight, I think. So again, as the 3 Chairman said, Mark Hilbert, International Association 4 of Electrical Inspectors; CMP 2 Chair. And again, I 5 speak against the motion, and in favor of the Panel's 6 work. 7 As was stated earlier in the, in the 70-11, 8 basically we had manufacturers on the panel that are 9 involved with this type of equipment. It was taken on 10 a case by case basis. Each one was reviewed 11 individually. And again, it was a unanimous vote. 12 There were no negative votes. Thank you, Mr. 13 Chairman. 14 JAMES QUITER: With that, we will open up 15 debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 16 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support 17 of, or against the motion. Microphone number two. 18 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 19 is Jim Dollard, representing the International 20 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in 21 opposition to the motion on the floor. 22 I would like to apologize to this body for 23 having to repeat everything that I said when I first 24 took the mic. The maker of this motion just told you 25 that this is new material. It is not new material.

416 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The Correlating Committee looked at Public Input 2935, 2 which would have required all reconditioned equipment 3 be listed - which means a field evaluation. That is a 4 significant requirement; an extreme burden on the 5 users of the National Electrical Code. It was 6 submitted to 110.21. The Correlating Committee looked 7 at that, saw that that would be a general requirement, 8 would impact every piece of electrical equipment in 9 the National Electrical Code. So the Correlating 10 Committee did the right thing. They correlate it. 11 They formed a task group, and that task group 12 submitted public comments to each committee, and told 13 them to make a decision, case by case - each committee 14 made a decision, case by case, on what to do with 15 reconditioned equipment. 16 Public Input 2935 was available for public 17 review. The proponents of reconditioning knew it was 18 there. The public comments were available for public 19 review. The proponents are long time members in this 20 process. They know the game. They didn't approach 21 any of the Chairs. Their goal is to try to set up an 22 appeal, and tell Standards Council they were wronged 23 by the process. They were not wronged by the process. 24 The process is correct. 25 We're going to go through this all night long,

417 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and we should not have to do this. Thank you very 2 much. I urge you to reject the motion on the floor. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 4 three. 5 (applause) 6 JACK LYONS: Speaking against the motion, Jack 7 Lyons from NEMA, representing NEMA Codes and 8 Standards. We agree with him. 9 (laughter) 10 (applause) 11 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number two. 12 JOHN MCKENZIE: John McKenzie, with Schneider 13 Electric, and we oppose this motion. Several of our 14 points have been made, so I will just say that Schneider 15 is committed to engaging across the industry, to 16 reinforce our position on the safe use of electrical 17 products, and the reuse of electrical equipment. 18 We believe that the language included by the 19 Code-Making Panel supports this goal. We oppose this 20 motion, and we urge the Membership to oppose it, as 21 well. Thank you. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 23 four. 24 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 25 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion.

418 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 This language did not appear in any form or 2 fashion in any public input. It did not appear in the 3 First Draft. It was in no way included in any of the 4 provisions or requests in the language in - that was 5 proposed for 110.21. A request to list equipment in no 6 way equates to a prohibition against reconditioning. 7 There was no request in the first part of the cycle to 8 prohibit reconditioning of any of this equipment. So to 9 say that somebody asking for listing is exactly the same 10 thing as putting in dozens of requirements prohibiting 11 something that's been happening for - forever in our 12 industry, with no other substantiation, is wrong. This 13 is new material. And I understand that, you know, maybe 14 you don't want to talk about this, but it should not be 15 in the code because it did not follow the process. 16 Thank you. Please support the motion. 17 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number six. 18 PAUL HARRAH (phonetic): Yes. I'm Paul Harrah, 19 the - I'm a spec writer, electrical engineer with Delta 20 Gavitro (phonetic) writing master spec. I'm speaking 21 for myself in opposition to the motion. 22 I believe the whole problem with this is the 23 words 'equipment that provides'. The definition of 24 equipment is so broad. And so I believe what we really 25 need to do is to let this text go through, but

419 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 immediately put in a TIA to change this to say 'all 2 reconditioned equipment shall replace devices providing 3 ground fault circuit interruption, arc fault circuit 4 interruption, or ground fault protection of equipment 5 with new listed devices'. And I think that would solve 6 everybody's problems, in opposition to this language. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number one. 8 STEVE LUBSTER (phonetic): I'm Steve Lubster, 9 speaking for myself, and I call the question. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. 11 (applause) 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. 13 JAMES QUITER: There's a motion from the floor to 14 call the question. There were some people still 15 remaining at the microphones waiting to speak, but we'll 16 proceed with the vote on the call of the question. Do 17 we have a second? 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. (unintelligible) 20 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order to 21 vote on this motion, please scroll down to the bottom of 22 the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in support of 23 the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 24 the motion, touch 'No'. Please record your vote, and 25 again, this is for calling the question.

420 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 2 The voting is closed. 3 The results of the vote are: 338 in support of 4 the motion to call the question; and 14 against the 5 motion to call the question. 6 With that, we will return to Motion 70-13. Let 7 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 8 Reject Second Revision No. 7657. To vote, touch the 9 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 10 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 11 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against het motion, and 12 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 13 record your vote. 14 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 15 The voting is closed. 16 The results of the vote are: 26 in favor of the 17 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 353 18 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 19 Two. The motion has failed. 20 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 21 Certified Amending Motion 70-14. Microphone one, 22 please. 23 ALAN MANCHE: My name's Alan Manche with 24 Schneider Electric, and I wish to make a Motion to 25 Reject Second Revision 8074.

421 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 2 the floor to reject Second Revision No. 8074. Is there 3 a second? 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 5 JAMES QUITER: Hearing a second, please proceed 6 with discussion on the motion. 7 ALAN MANCHE: My name's Alan Manche with 8 Schneider Electric, and I support this motion. This, 9 this particular motion is to address duplication of the 10 definition of reconditioned. So what we, what we 11 ultimately have here is this definition was created by 12 Code Panel 10, accepted by Code Panel 1 or, or moved by 13 the Correlating Committee to Code Panel 1. So this is a 14 duplicate that's also located in Panel 1, that we 15 addressed, so what we don't want to do is have this in 16 two places to create confusion. 17 So this is simply removing the duplicate in 18 240.2, and Article 240 will rely on the definition that 19 is - now resides, it's identical to this in, in Article 20 - in 100, and Code Panel 10 that has responsibility, 21 too, for 240.2, also has responsibility for that 22 particular definition in 100. I urge you to support 23 this. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 25 ALAN MANCHE: (unintelligible)

422 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Mr. Johnston, would you like to 2 offer the Panel's position? 3 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The NEC 4 Correlating Committee supports the motion on the floor, 5 as it removes a duplication. I echo the sentiments from 6 Mr. Manche. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 8 open debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 9 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support of, 10 or against the motion. Microphone four. 11 MIKE STONE: Mike Stone, representing NEMA, and I 12 also represent NEMA on Code-Making Panel 1, which is 13 where this definition now resides. We support this 14 Motion to Reject Second Revision 8074, and remove the 15 proposed text. Thank you. 16 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 17 discussion on Motion 70-14, to Reject Second Revision 18 No. 8074? Microphone six, are you waiting for the next 19 one? 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I was going to call the 21 question if there were any others, but it doesn't like 22 it. 23 (laughter) 24 JAMES QUITER: Chairman Johnston, do you have any 25 further comment?

423 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have no further comments, 2 Mr. Chair. 3 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Before we vote, let me 4 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 5 Reject Second Revision No. 8074. To vote - vote, touch 6 the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of 7 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 8 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 9 recommend the text on Screen Two, vote 'No'. Please 10 record your vote. 11 Five seconds. 12 The voting is closed. 13 The results of the vote are: 376 in support of 14 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 25 15 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 16 Two. Therefore, the motion has passed. 17 Let's now proceed with Certified Amending Motion 18 70-15. Microphone four, please. 19 HOWARD HERNDON: This is Howard Herndon, 20 representing the Professional Apparatus Reconditioners 21 League. Motion 70.14, Reject the Second Revision 7974. 22 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There is a motion on 23 the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 7974. Is there 24 a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

424 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 3 HOWARD HERNDON: The intent here, I think, is to 4 allow the other apparatus that has fuse holders in it to 5 be reconditioned, but not necessarily fuses - because I 6 think it's pretty ludicrous to say that we're going to 7 recondition a fuse - that's not renewable, and which 8 RENS (phonetic) are no longer even legal in most 9 circumstances. 10 So I vote - I would like to see us reject this, 11 get it reworded properly, because if I have a motor 12 control center bucket, a fuse switch that I can 13 recondition under the NEMA guidelines, I have to touch 14 the fuse clips. 15 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 16 you like to offer the Panel's position? 17 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 18 were no correlation issues or conflicts created by this 19 action, and I'll just repeat, the NEC Correlating 20 Committee did review the complete record, and had 21 determined that there was no new material being 22 introduced on this particular item. 23 For the technical, I will defer to the Chair of 24 Co-Panel 10, Mr. Julian Burns. I think he's at mic 25 three.

425 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JULIAN BURNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 2 is Julian Burns. I represent the Independent Electrical 3 Contractors Association, and I am Chairman of Panel 10. 4 Panel 10 looked at this rather extensively, and 5 knowing you cannot refurbish, recondition a fuse or the 6 holder. So I stand in opposition of this motion. I 7 would appreciate everyone else standing in appreciation 8 of it, because think of it - if you take a fuse apart, 9 you've destroyed it. If the fuse holder - you cannot 10 replace 'em. So if you reach in there, most of the time 11 they have irreversible screws, so you'd have to drill it 12 out. That is not a portion of reconditioning. Thank 13 you. 14 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 15 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 16 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support of, 17 or against the motion. Microphone two. 18 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 19 is Jim Dollard, representing the International 20 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in 21 opposition to this motion. 22 We're just going through all the motions, the 23 arguments are all the same - it's reconditioned 24 equipment. I urge you to reject the motion on the 25 floor. Again, we're going to do this all night, so I'd

426 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 like to quote Yogi Berra and say, 'It's déjà vu all over 2 again.' 3 (laughter) 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there -- 5 (applause) 6 JAMES QUITER: Microphone two. 7 BARRY RODGERS: I'm Barry Rodgers. I represent 8 Schneider Electric, and I recommend that we, the 9 Membership vote against this motion. 10 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 11 discussion on Motion 70-15, to Reject Second Revision 12 No. 7974? Microphone four. 13 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter, with 14 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. Just a 15 reiteration, I believe this is also new material. And 16 the, the comment that, that we're going through the 17 motions I think is disrespectful to this process. There 18 was actually a different technical point that was 19 brought up on this, and it's worthy of this body to 20 listen to the submitters of these motions. Thank you. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Chair, any further 22 comment? 23 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Mr. 24 Chair. 25 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Before we vote, let me

427 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 2 Reject Second Revision No. 7974. To vote, touch the 3 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 4 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 5 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 6 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 7 record your vote. 8 Voting will close in five seconds. 9 The voting is closed. 10 Results of the vote are: 26 in support of the 11 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 372 12 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 13 Two. The motion has failed. 14 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 15 Certified Amending Motion 70-16. Microphone four, 16 please. 17 HOWARD HERNDON: Motion 70-16. This is Howard 18 Herndon, Professional Electrical Apparatus Recyclers 19 League, or Reconditioners League, rather - Reject the 20 Second Revision 8048. 21 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 22 the floor to reject Second Revision No. 8048. Is there 23 a second? 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

428 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 3 HOWARD HERNDON: The text of the wording here 4 allows, allows us that we cannot recondition a fuse 5 clip; nor would we want to recondition a medium voltage 6 fuse. We all know that once a fuse blows, it's in the 7 trash can. That's fine. But the fuse clip is part of a 8 metal, enclosed piece of switch gear, or a medium 9 voltage starter, needs to be able to be renewed if we're 10 going to be able to work on that piece of equipment. 11 And technically, I think that's a good issue that we 12 need to get - we don't have an issue with the medium 13 voltage fuses. It's the fuse holder. 14 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 15 you like to offer the Panel's position? 16 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 17 Correlating Committee found no correlation issues or 18 conflicts with this. And I'd like to defer to the Chair 19 of Code Panel 10, Julian Burns, at microphone number 20 three, please. 21 JULIAN BURNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am 22 Julian Burns, representing the Independent Electrical 23 Contractors Association, and I am Chairman of Panel 10. 24 As before, we discussed this. We understand that 25 you cannot replace or recondition a medium voltage fuse.

429 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Also, you should not recondition a fuse clip. The same 2 story, twice again. Thank you. 3 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 4 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 5 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support of, 6 or against the motion. Seeing no one rising, is there 7 any further - is there anything else you would like to 8 add, Mr. Chair? 9 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 10 JAMES QUITER: Okay. Before we vote, let me 11 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 12 Reject Second Revision No. 8048. To vote, touch the 13 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 14 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 15 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 16 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 17 record your vote. 18 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 19 The voting is closed. 20 The results of the vote are: 42 in support of 21 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 22 369 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 23 Two. The motion has failed. 24 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 25 Certified Amending Motion 70-17. Microphone one.

430 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 BOB TORBIN: My name is Bob Torbin. I am the 2 originator of this public input, and I would move to 3 accept Amending Motion 7-17 to Accept Public Comment 4 808. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. There's a motion on 6 the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 808. Is there a 7 second? 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 10 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 11 proceed with the discussion of the motion. 12 BOB TORBIN: Again, my name is Bob Torbin. I am 13 the Director of Codes and Standards for Omega Flex, 14 manufacturer of corrugated tubing products. And I would 15 move - I would support the Motion to Accept Public 16 Comment 808. 17 The National Fire Protection Association 18 Standards Council previously affirmed that NFPA 54 19 Technical Committee, and not NFPA 70 Technical 20 Committee, would be responsible for setting requirements 21 for the bonding of gas piping. All of the editions of 22 NFPA 54 from 2009 to the - actually, the appending, the 23 currently pending 2021, have requirements for extra 24 bonding of CSST, which is corrugated stainless steel 25 tubing.

431 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 In the 2011 National Electrical Code, an 2 Informational Note was added to alert both electrical 3 contractors and electrical inspectors that additional 4 information for gas piping bonding could be found in the 5 current edition of NFPA 54. However, most electrical 6 contractors and inspectors don't have copies of the 7 National Fuel Gas Code available, or in their truck. 8 Also, according to the National Association of 9 State Fire Marshals, a majority of CSST fires are 10 attributable to a lack of this bonding, in accordance 11 with the code, and the lack of enforcement of the code, 12 due to a lack of coverage in the code. 13 And so this proposal is an attempt to rectify 14 that situation. The proposed change, Public Comment 15 808, to the National Electrical Code, would simply and 16 only include the additional information from NFPA 54, on 17 bonding of gas piping in an Informational Annex, in the 18 National Electrical Code. That is all we're asking 19 here, is to take the information from one code, and 20 provide it to users of another. 21 The benefit of this proposal would be to provide 22 contractors and inspectors a clear and easy access to 23 this critical code requirement on the bonding of gas 24 piping, as it is already stipulated in the National 25 Electrical Code.

432 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 2 you like to offer the Panel's position? 3 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 4 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 5 the NEC Correlating Committee. I would like to defer to 6 the Chair of Code-Making Panel 5, Nathan Phillips, at 7 microphone three. 8 NATHAN PHILIPS: Thank you. My name is Nathan 9 Phillips. I'm Chair of Panel 5. I'm representing NECA, 10 and I'm speaking against the motion. 11 Proposals to require additional bonding of CSST 12 in the NEC to protect against lightning events have been 13 brought to Code-Making Panel 5 every cycle since at 14 least 2008. The Committee has voted each time in 15 opposition to these proposals. 16 The failures of CSST reported to CMP 5 have been 17 due to lightning events, not as the result of the use of 18 electricity. Protection of CSST from the effects of 19 lightning is more properly found in NFPA 780, the 20 Standard for the Installation of Lightning Protection 21 Systems. 22 In response to previous Certifying Amending 23 Motions and appeals, the Correlating Committee and the 24 Standards Council have found that this issue is outside 25 the scope of the NEC. The Standards Council assigned

433 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 responsibility for installation requirements for CSST to 2 NFPA 54, the National Field Gas Code. CMP 5 has 3 repeatedly affirmed that the requirements for the 4 bonding of metal piping systems, other than water 5 piping, were likely to become energized, found in 6 250.104(B) are appropriate and adequate for addressing 7 issues within the scope of the NEC. The Committee has 8 received no technical substantiation to suggest 9 otherwise, with respect to CSST. 10 The Committee considered Comment 808, that added 11 an Informational Annex restating the installation 12 requirements for CSST found in NFPA 54. The Committee 13 concluded that adding the proposed Informative Annex 14 would not add value, and would cause correlation issues 15 between the NEC and NFPA 54 when revisions are made to 16 NFPA 54. The installation requirements for CSST are 17 readily available to the public at the NFPA website, 18 where they can be reviewed by installers and AHJs. 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh. 20 NATHAN PHILLIPS: In this cycle, the Committee 21 did approve simplifying the existing Informational Note 22 to avoid conflicting section numbers when revisions are 23 made to NFPA 54, and a reference to NFPA 780 was added 24 to provide further guidance on the protection of the 25 CSST systems. The Committee vote was unanimous in

434 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 support of these actions. Thank you. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you With that, we will open 3 up debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 4 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support of, 5 or against the motion. Microphone two, please. 6 CHRISTINE PORTER: My name is Christine Porter. 7 I'm from Intertek, and I am also the Chair of 780. We 8 are aware that the -- 9 JAMES QUITER: For or against the motion? 10 CHRISTINE PORTER: I am speaking against the 11 motion. It has been upheld that this is a lightning 12 issue, and not through the use of electricity. The 13 Omega Flex group actually had a rep come to our Second 14 Draft meeting, and together we did create an Annex 15 material discussing how and where to bond the CSST, 16 because we as a Committee disagree with the quantity of 17 bonding, and the lengths of bonding that is recommended 18 in NFPA 54. And for that reason, we urge you to reject 19 this motion. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 21 three. 22 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 23 is Jim Dollard, representing the International 24 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I urge the - I'm 25 speaking in opposition. I urge the body to oppose the

435 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 motion on the floor, for a couple of extremely important 2 reasons. 3 Standards Council Final Decision D Number 10-2 4 very clearly states that bonding of CSST is not within 5 the scope of the National Electrical Code. This does 6 not belong in the NEC. This is a lightning issue. It's 7 a product issue. We never had this issue when we used 8 black iron. Lightning is an extremely powerful and 9 destructive force. When lightning hits any building or 10 structure, there will be differences of potential 11 throughout the building. CSST is an extremely thin wall 12 product; an arc is formed, and you get a pinhole. Then 13 you have a flame thrower. 14 Requirements to bond CSST with a Number Six are 15 ridiculous. There is no way that that would make any 16 difference at all. You can't stop a freight train with 17 a 2 x 4. That's what they're trying to do here, telling 18 you to take a Number Six to the gas manifold. I urge 19 you to reject the motion on the floor. 20 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number two. 21 JOHN KOVACHIC: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. John 22 Kovachic, UL LLC, speaking on behalf of the Electrical 23 Section of NFPA as their official representative, and 24 speaking against the motion. 25 The Electrical Section met on Tuesday of this

436 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 week. During its business meeting, the members voted to 2 not support the motion on the floor. Ladies and 3 gentlemen, I urge you to vote against this motion. 4 Thank you very much. 5 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. And also microphone 6 number two. 7 MITCHELL GETHRIE (phonetic): Thank you. 8 Mitchell Gethrie, representing myself. I've served 10 9 years as the Chair of NFPA 780, and the IEC Committee on 10 Lightning Protection, and selected to be a member of NFP 11 - excuse me, the NFPA Standards Council CSST Task Group. 12 I'm speaking in opposition to the proposal. 13 It removes a reference to NFPA 780, in 250, 104, 14 even though the proposed Annex text clearly states that 15 it's a lightning related threat. I won't repeat some of 16 the other things, but I think it's already been well 17 said that this is certainly a lightning protection 18 problem, and, and really doesn't belong in the NEC. We 19 totally agree with those statements. 20 These - National Association of State Fire 21 Marshals has conducted and posted on their website, 22 fault current testing on several types of CSST, and the 23 results indicate that the grounding and bonding 24 indicated in the proposed Annex text will not be 25 effective for all types of CSST.

437 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The proposed Annex K contains many errors, and 2 can't appear as listed. There's reference text that - 3 with asterisks that's not included there. And it would 4 reference the version of NFPA 780 that is four revisions 5 old - 12 years old reference. 6 The current edition of NFPA 780, as mentioned by 7 the Chair earlier, contains Annex text that addresses 8 various aspects of the mitigation of the threat 9 presented by lightning, in the presence of CSST. These 10 do not include the maximum values from an analysis using 11 optimistic parameters against a limited threat scenario 12 that's given in NFPA 54. Instead, it identifies 13 measures that could be taken to reduce the susceptible 14 to reaches of CSST resulting from lightning threats. 15 The Annex discusses the use of multiple grounding 16 and bonding points with preferred locations. It 17 discusses minimizing the length of the bonding cable to 18 minimize the voltage differences. And it discusses the 19 benefit of separation distance to increase the level of 20 voltage that, that may develop between CSST and 21 conductive objects, without any hazardous arcing. 22 The - I urge you to vote no on this motion. 23 Thank you. 24 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Any further discussion 25 on Motion 70-17, to Accept Public Comment No. 808? Mr.

438 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Johnston? 2 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Mr. 3 Chair. 4 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Before we vote, let me 5 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 6 Accept Public Comment No. 808. To vote, touch the 7 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 8 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, vote 9 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 10 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 11 record your vote. 12 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 13 The voting is closed. 14 The results of the vote are: 6 in support of the 15 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 385 16 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 17 Two. The motion has failed. 18 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 19 Certified Amending Motion No. 70-18. Microphone number 20 one. 21 PAUL CABOT: I'm Paul Cabot with the American Gas 22 Association, and I move to Accept an Identifiable Part 23 of Public Comment No. 444. 24 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion on the floor to 25 Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 444.

439 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Is there a second? 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second that. Second. 3 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 4 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 5 PAUL CABOT: Paul Cabot, the American Gas 6 Association. I'm in favor of this motion. AGA is 7 seeking to require that the internal sealing of 8 electrical conduits and raceways, where they enter a 9 building or structure. AGA's public input, and our 10 public comment to revise Section 305, this section we're 11 dealing with today, right now, and 350F, which we'll be 12 dealing with in our next motion, both failed the Panel - 13 at the Panel meetings. 14 Section 305 is for underground conduit 15 installations. It's part of the general requirements 16 for wiring methods for installations that have 1,000 17 volts or less. 18 Now, the code currently provides an Information 19 Note that states that where hazardous gasses or vapors 20 may be present, that sealing should be considered. So 21 clearly, the code currently recognizes that this is a 22 hazard. 23 We are - we are - we are seeking to require that 24 - the sealing of all such conduits and raceways, without 25 local installer determination, since installers are

440 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 often unaware that gas service may be near the building. 2 These conduit penetrations are a potential avenue to 3 carry natural gas into a building from an underground 4 gas leak, or other natural sources of methane. 5 Our Association members, which are natural gas 6 utilities that provide gas service to over 95% of all 7 meters in the United States, are committed to help 8 ensuring that our gas distribution systems are leak- 9 free. All have programs to replace aging pipelines, and 10 many are undertaking accelerated pipe replacement 11 programs to further reduce the risk. 12 However, this is a two - we need a two-fold 13 approach. One is what our members are doing, is to 14 minimize underground leaks. And the second one, which 15 is what we're asking the Membership to do, is to provide 16 the seal to make - that may - might - reduce the 17 migration of, of gas leaks into buildings. 18 This change that we had proposed has the support 19 of many organizations, including our membership, the 20 National Propane Gas Association, American Poly Water 21 Company, and the National Utility Contractors 22 Association, NUCA. They, they have sent us a letter in 23 supporting of our members. They couldn't be here today, 24 but they wanted to know, let you know that sealing, that 25 this sealing requirement would, if adopted,

441 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 substantially reduce the risk of injury. 2 Section 305 as I - as I previously stated, 3 recognized the hazard with an Informational Note. So 4 all we're asking is for it to be mandated, not to rely 5 upon a local installer to make a determination. This is 6 a low cost practice that will provide an overall safety 7 benefit to the build environment. Thank you. 8 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, would 9 you like to offer the Panel's position? 10 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 11 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 12 the Correlating Committee. I would like to defer to the 13 Chair of Code Panel 3, Robert Jones. I believe he's at 14 microphone three. 15 ROBERT JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 16 is Robert Jones. I represent Independent Electrical 17 Contractors, and I am Chair of Panel 3. I speak on 18 behalf of Panel 3 in opposition to the motion. 19 Panel 3 resolved Public Input 3330, which sought 20 to require sealing of all underground conduits and 21 raceways entering a building, with an internal seal, and 22 an outer seal to prevent the entrance of water and 23 gasses. At the First Draft meeting, before the Panel 24 discussed the public input, the submitter gave a 25 presentation, and the Panel members were allowed to

442 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 address the presenter. Panel 3 gave a very lengthy 2 Panel Statement which is public record, that some of the 3 concerns of Panel 3 are: Many installations and 4 buildings do not have the presence of natural gas or 5 fuel gas. A seal can minimize the passage of gas, but 6 cannot prevent it. The entrance of the underground 7 electrical raceways into the building must comply with 8 building codes, which require keeping moisture and other 9 elements out of the building. The proposed revision for 10 Informational Notice 1 and 2 were written in mandatory 11 language, and would not be in accordance with 3.1.3 of 12 the NEC Style Manual. 13 During the Second Draft meeting, Public Comment 14 1126 was rejected, and before the Panel discussed the 15 public comment, the submitters gave a presentation, and 16 Panel members were allowed to address the presenters. 17 Panel 3 gave another lengthy Panel Statement, which is 18 public record. 19 Panel 3 does acknowledge that this issue requires 20 further study, and it is recommended that the 21 Correlating Committee appoint a Task Group composed of 22 the members of Panel 3, 14, and 16 to study the issue. 23 In addition, Panel 3 has requested sending this issue to 24 the Fire Protection Research Foundation for additional 25 study. I ask all voting members to support Panel 3, and

443 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 vote against this motion. 2 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 3 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 4 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support of, 5 or against the motion. Microphone one, please. 6 CRAIG ROAKS (phonetic): Craig Roaks, Southwest 7 Gas Corporation, in support of the motion. 8 This CAM would harmonize this code with the 9 National Electrical Safety Code, where their 10 requirements have existed for over a hundred years. 11 This CAM will reduce the number of moisture incursions 12 into buildings that are currently permitted by this 13 section's vague and permissive text. This section's 14 core requirements are in its first sentence. Introduced 15 in the 1975 edition as part of a code reorganization, it 16 appeared without any explanation or support. It 17 requires seals to be installed in conduits, quote, 18 '...through which moisture may contact live parts.' 19 That's vague and ambiguous, which might make it 20 unenforceable, and dangerous. It would violate the NEC 21 Style Manual, if it applied. 22 And that ambiguity is compounded by the 23 Informational Note. Among other problems, that note 24 doesn't provide information, but instead makes a vague 25 recommendation. It also would violate the Style Manual.

444 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Now, when the section does mandate seals, it 2 allows only one end to be sealed. So if the conduit 3 enters a building, it can be sealed on the opposite end, 4 but that's ineffective, and dangerous if the underground 5 conduit is subsequently damaged, because it leaves the 6 building unprotected from any moisture that enters the 7 damaged conduit. 8 This CAM eliminates the ambiguities and the risks 9 where it matters the most, requires seals to be 10 installed at the end within the building. It doesn't 11 require additional study. 12 If the text looks familiar, that's not an 13 accident. For example, it replicates the requirement 14 that already exists for sealing all conduits for outside 15 branch circuits and feeders where they enter buildings, 16 in Section 22.27. And it borrows text from the existing 17 requirements for underground conduits that are over a 18 thousand volts. 19 Another benefit of the CAM is that it will reduce 20 the number of preventable explosions, fires, and 21 injuries that have occurred since this section was 22 adopted. That's why I'm here. Moisture isn't the only 23 hazard that exists beneath the underground, and it can 24 enter conduits, and travel into buildings. There's 25 smoke from underground cable fires; small animals that

445 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 can damage live parts; and flammable liquids, gasses, 2 and vapors from a variety of sources, including sewer 3 gas. 4 Now, for comparison, the code mandates fire 5 stopping of electrical conduit penetrations through fire 6 resistance rated walls, because those installations 7 shouldn't substantially increase the spread of an 8 accidental fire. The same can be said of underground 9 conduit penetrations through exterior walls. They 10 shouldn't substantially increase the spread of 11 accidental hazards from the underground environment, 12 that are just as lethal as fire. 13 The National Electrical Safety Code addresses 14 this by requiring inexpensive seals. This code should 15 do that, too. I support this motion because I'm tired 16 of responding to preventable explosions. Please vote 17 yes. 18 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number two. 19 MARK ODIE: Mark Odie, from Pearson Engineering, 20 and I'm speaking in opposition to this. I'm a member of 21 Panel 3, and have been for a long time. I'm 22 representing Pearson Engineering, and speaking not on 23 behalf of the Code Panel. 24 The proposed change in 300.5(G) would require all 25 electrical conduits and raceways entering any building

446 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 from an underground installation to be sealed around all 2 raceways. In addition to sealing around the raceway as 3 it enters a building, the proposed change would require 4 an external underground vault, or enclosure with a 5 sealant at grade at the point of entry of any 6 underground raceway into the building. An alternative 7 to the underground vault would be a box or enclosure 8 immediately inside the building, with a sealant to 9 prevent the passage of gas between two nonhazardous, 10 unclassified locations. And that's the - those words 11 are directly from the proposal, and the comment. 12 This would apply to any size or type of 13 electrical raceway, from a half inch, to a six-inch 14 raceway. And I quote from the proposed comment. 15 'Internal seals are warranted whenever an underground 16 conduit enters a building, including used, unused, and 17 spare conduits.' There wasn't any limitation on the 18 application, since the proposed text would apply to 19 branch circuit raceways, feeder raceways, and service 20 raceways. The proposed text would apply to any 21 building, from residential, commercial, to industrial 22 buildings. This proposed text would apply to any 23 building, even those buildings without any natural gas 24 on or near the property. 25 The intent is to establish a seal that will

447 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 separate nonhazardous, unclassified areas from another 2 nonhazardous, unclassified area. The comment stated 3 that installing an underground vault or above ground 4 enclosure with seals would reduce risk of sewer gas, 5 industrial waste gas, cable installation, paralysis, 6 smoke, and the loss of containment from fuel lines or 7 tanks, or other recognized hazards. 8 This public input and comment does not have any 9 technical substantiation to back up those supposedly 10 dire consequences, and stated that the proposed text 11 requires absolutely no study by any task group or 12 foundation, as we had originally intended them to 13 submit. The comment stated that when these sealants 14 are, are absent, preventable building evacuations and 15 explosions with industry - I, I'm sorry, with injuries, 16 have occurred for decades. I have reason to doubt that. 17 And again, the motion should be rejected, and thank you 18 very much for your time. 19 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 20 four, please. 21 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 22 International, for NAFRA, in support. Beyond the 23 expectation of doom and gloom given by Mr. Odie, I 24 haven't really heard any reason not to, to seal the end 25 of a, of a conduit or raceway entering a building.

448 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Conduits entering a building - there clearly is the 2 potential for gasses coming through for whatever things 3 coming through. A cheap seal on the other end of a 4 conduit or raceway seems a very reasonable and 5 inexpensive way. Please support the motion. 6 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Microphone number 7 three, please. 8 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, representing myself. 9 I move to call the question. 10 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion from the floor 11 to call the question. I notice that there are a couple 12 people remaining at the microphones waiting to speak, 13 but we'll proceed with the vote on the call of the 14 question. Do we have a second? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 16 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. In order to 17 vote on this motion, please scroll down to the bottom of 18 the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in support of 19 the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 20 the motion, touch 'No'. Please record your vote 21 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 22 Voting is closed. 23 The results of the vote are: 345 in support of 24 the motion to call the question; and 17 against the 25 motion to call the question. The motion has passed.

449 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Therefore, we are back to the main motion, which 2 is Motion 70-18. The motion on the floor is to Accept 3 an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 444. To 4 vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 5 support of the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 6 One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the 7 motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 8 'No'. Please record your vote. 9 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 10 The voting is closed. 11 The results of the vote are: 99 in support of 12 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 13 288 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 14 Two. The motion has failed. 15 Let us now proceed with the discussion on 16 Certified Amending Motion 70-19. Microphone one, 17 please. 18 PAUL CABOT: I'm Paul Cabot with the American Gas 19 Association. I move to Accept Public Comment Nos. 1470 20 and 1445. 21 JAMES QUITER: 1445 or 445? 22 PAUL CABOT: I mean 445. Sorry. 23 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. 24 PAUL CABOT: Thank you. 25 JAMES QUITER: There is a motion on the floor to

450 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Accept Public Comment Nos. 1470 and 445. Is there a 2 second? 3 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 5 JAMES QUITER: We do have a second. Please 6 proceed with a discussion of the motion. 7 PAUL CABOT: Paul Cabot, American Gas 8 Association, in favor of this motion. This motion 9 actually can stand alone. It doesn't - it doesn't 10 depend upon what this Membership just did with the 11 previous one. We think it's a good idea to refer back 12 to one section that covers the sealing of conduits, just 13 to make sure that there's consistency within the code. 14 So I urge the Membership to approve this, this motion. 15 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, any 16 comments for the Panel? 17 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 18 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 19 the Correlating Committee. I would like to defer to the 20 Chair of Code Panel 3, Robert Jones, at microphone 21 three, please. 22 ROBERT JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Again, 23 my name is Robert Jones. I'm with the Independent 24 Electrical Contractors, also Chair of Panel 3. I speak 25 in opposition to this motion, on behalf of Panel 3.

451 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 And Panel 3 did see this as exactly the same 2 issue as the one that we just discussed. The only 3 difference is, it's coming out of Section 300.50(F), 4 which is for installations over a thousand votes. 5 Again, I would appreciate you all voting in opposition 6 to this motion. 7 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. With that, we will 8 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 9 affiliation, and whether you're speaking in support of, 10 or against the motion. Microphone two, please. 11 MARK ODIE: Mark Odie, with Pearson Engineering, 12 and I'm speaking in opposition, and I reiterate what I 13 said before. Panel 3 looked at this and decided that it 14 was the same issue. What they wanted to do in 300.5(G), 15 they were going to just refer from 300.50(F), back to 16 300.5(G). But in, in opposition to that, we voted that 17 down. So again, I suggest that we vote this one down, 18 also. 19 JAMES QUITER: Thank you. Is there any further 20 discussion on Motion 70-19 to Accept Public Comment Nos. 21 1470 and 445? Mr. Johnston? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 23 JAMES QUITER: Before we vote, let me restate the 24 motion. The motion on the floor is to Accept Public 25 Comment Nos. 1470 and 445. To vote, touch the 'vote'

452 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 button. If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 2 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 3 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 4 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 5 vote. 6 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 7 The voting is closed. 8 The results of the vote are: 32 in support of 9 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One; and 10 339 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 11 Two. The motion has failed. 12 Before we continue the debate on NFPA 70, I would 13 like to introduce James Golinveaux, Member of the 14 Standards Council, who will be the Presiding Officer for 15 the remaining motions before the Membership. Mr. 16 Golinveaux. 17 (applause) 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: As we announced earlier, we 19 have reordered the next five motions - motions. 20 Discussions on the motions will be held in the following 21 order: 70-21, 22, 23, and 24; and then we will follow 22 up with 70-20. 23 So moving on, let's now proceed with the 24 discussion on Certified Amending Motion 70-21. 25 Microphone four, please.

453 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 PETER GRASER: Good evening. Yes, my name is 2 Peter Graser. I represent Copperweld Bimetallics, and 3 the American Bimetallics Association. I move to Accept 4 an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 1406. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a motion 6 on the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 7 Comment No. 1406. Is there a second? Did I get a 8 second? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Ah, thank you. Please 11 proceed. 12 PETER GRASER: Again, my name is Peter Graser. I 13 represent Copperweld Bimetallics, as well as the 14 American Bimetallics Association. I would like to - I 15 would like your support for my, my CAM, and it deals 16 with enumerating the text for the requirements of the 17 CAM 721, as well as correcting certain grammatical 18 errors in the text, for the usability - to improve the 19 usability of the CAM, or of the article. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. Thank you. Mr. 21 Johnston, would you like to offer the Panel's position? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 23 were no correlation issues, or conflicts identified by 24 the Correlating Committee on this issue. Because the 25 Chair of Code Panel 6 is not with us, I would like to

454 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 defer to the Chair of Code Panel 7, who has agreed to 2 talk on behalf of Code Panel 6, to this issue. That's 3 Keith Lofland. He is at microphone number three, 4 please. 5 KEITH LOFLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The - I 6 wish to speak against the motion, and on Code-Making 7 Panel 6, they had rejected this at the comment stage, 8 and the, the following Panel Statement - the test data 9 provided in support of the public input and, and comment 10 addresses temperature corrections only. A fact finding 11 investigation is needed that specifically develops a 12 test pattern, and develops test data that supports the 13 proposed changes in the NEC, based on specific code 14 language that's being proposed. This would include 15 overcurrent protection, compatibility with wiring 16 devices, equipment, and other correlation with the code, 17 where 14 American wire gauge, copper clad aluminum would 18 be used. 19 So I stand in opposition of the motion. Thank 20 you, Mr. Chair. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 22 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 23 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support, or 24 against the motion. Microphone four, please. 25 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with

455 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Serra Wire. I'm speaking in support of the motion. 2 I'm on Code-Making Panel 6, and of course, I'm 3 not representing Code-Making Panel 6 here today. But I 4 was very involved in the conversations. And, and Mr. 5 Lofland read the, the statement in opposition to this. 6 But this is only to accept an identifiable part. The, 7 the part that we're being asked to accept does not 8 request that we accept the 14 gauge, copper clad 9 aluminum that was the basis of the, the negative from 10 the Code-Making Panel. What we're being asked to accept 11 is, is actually an, an improvement to the usability and 12 readability of this section, and it improves this code 13 section. So I, I would urge you to, to support this 14 motion. Thank you. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four. 16 PETER GRASER: Peter Graser, Copperweld 17 Bimetallics, and the American Bimetallics Association. 18 I am in favor of this, this motion. 19 Basically, we're, we're essentially enumerating, 20 and creating logic for this article. We're enumerating 21 the requirements, and we're correcting the grammatical 22 errors that are in the text. And we, we seek your, 23 your, your, your yes vote for this motion. Thank you. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 25 please.

456 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 2 International, speaking for myself. This seems to be 3 simply editorial reorganization - no technical change. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Marcelo, are you speaking for 5 or against the motion? 6 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: I'm sorry - speaking for the 7 motion. Thank you. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: And thank you. Is there any 9 further discussion on Motion 70-21 to Amend an 10 Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 1406? Mr. 11 Johnston, do you have any final comments? 12 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 13 Thank you. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Before 15 we vote, let me restate the motion. The motion on the 16 floor is to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 17 Comment No. 1406. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If 18 you wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend 19 this text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 20 vote against the motion, and recommend the text on 21 Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 22 Five seconds, the voting will be closed. 23 The vote is closed. 24 There are 167 votes in favor of the motion; 230 25 against the motion. The motion has failed.

457 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Now, let's proceed with the discussion on 2 Certified Amending Motion 70-22. Microphone four, 3 please. 4 PETER GRASER: Peter Graser of Copperweld 5 Bimetallics, and the American Bimetallics Association. 6 I move to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment 7 No. 1406. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 9 on the floor to an accept - to Accept an Identifiable 10 Part of Public Comment No. 1406. Is there a second? 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I do have a second, so please 13 proceed with the discussion. 14 PETER GRASER: Peter Graser, Copperweld 15 Bimetallics, and the American Bimetallics Association. 16 I urge this Membership to vote yes for this motion. The 17 aim of this motion is to seek a listing requirement for 18 the bimetallic material. It is absolutely essential 19 that this listing requirement be part of this code. It 20 is virtually impossible to know, by looking, if a piece 21 of bimetallic copper clad aluminum meets the 22 requirements of ASTM, and of this code, by not having it 23 tested. You - it is absolutely essential that this 24 listing requirement be in, in, in place so that the user 25 knows that it's a true bimetal with a true metallurgical

458 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 bond. Thank you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 3 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please? 4 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 5 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 6 the Correlating Committee. I would like to defer once 7 again to the Chair of Code Panel 7, Keith Lofland, at 8 microphone three, on behalf of Code Panel 6. 9 KEITH LOFLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Keith 10 Lofland, representing the International Association of 11 Electrical Inspectors, and I stand in opposition to this 12 motion. The sitting Chair of Panel 6 asked me to read 13 the following statement: The motion is seeking to add 14 copper clad aluminum conductors shall be listed. While 15 the NEC does require listing of equipment at Section 16 110.3, I cannot find a separate article or section that 17 clearly states copper clad or aluminum conductors shall 18 be listed. Therefore, why would we arbitrarily add 19 copper clad aluminum conductors to be listed at this 20 location. There are already standards in place which 21 will abide the manufacturer of these conductors. The 22 finished product is listed, such as covered in the 23 wording at 110.3(a) through (c). Thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 25 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your

459 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 2 support, or against the motion. Microphone number four, 3 please. 4 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 5 International, for the Vinyl Institute, in support. 6 I don't see any reason why, to oppose this. 7 Within this section, copper clad aluminum conductors are 8 already included. So what the proponent is asking for 9 is to make it tougher for themselves by requiring that 10 they be listed. That doesn't decrease safety. In fact, 11 it will increase safety. He is not adding copper clad 12 aluminum conductors to the, to this section. They are 13 already in this section; already permitted. He is 14 making it more difficult, safer for them to be included 15 here. Please support the motion. Thank you. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five, 17 please. 18 RODRIGO BURN (phonetic): My name is Rodrigo 19 Burn. I'm with Condocell (phonetic) from El Salvador, 20 and I am also with the American Bimetallics Association. 21 I support the motion on the floor. 22 We, as copper clad aluminum manufacturers, we 23 think it's important to have a listing on the product. 24 We are trying to protect the final consumer in the 25 markets from substandard product. And actually, copper

460 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 clad aluminum in - wire and electrical conductor up to 2 200 volts is already being used in Latin American and 3 the Caribbean since probably eight, 10 years ago, and 4 we're started to see an increase in substandard product, 5 not complying with the code requirements already stated 6 for copper clad aluminum, and the ASTM standards. So I 7 urge you to, to support our motion. Thank you. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone three, 9 please. 10 JACK LYONS: Speaking against the motion. I'm 11 Jack Lyons, represent NEMA Codes and Standards 12 Committee. And they are - I'm just stating their 13 opposition to the Motion to Accept the Identifiable Part 14 in PC 1406, related to listing of copper clad aluminum. 15 Thank you. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone number 17 four, please. 18 CHARLES MELLOW (phonetic): My name is Charles 19 Mellow. I am CDC Mellow Consulting, speaking on the 20 behalf of copper clad aluminum - Copper - or Copperweld 21 Bimetallics. 22 Copper clad aluminum is a manufactured product. 23 It's very critical that it be -- 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you for or against the 25 motion?

461 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 CHARLES MELLOW: I am for the motion. It is very 2 critical that the metallurgical bonding be verified. 3 This can only be done by a testing a laboratory, through 4 a listing process. It cannot be done in the field; you 5 don't know that it's (unintelligible), as previously 6 just stated - not to repeat a 'me, too' - but there is 7 substandard material where it's a copper plated 8 aluminum, not a copper clad aluminum being put on the 9 market, and being stated as copper clad aluminum. 10 It's very critical for the safety in the 11 installation for the installers and inspectors to have 12 the knowledge that this is a suitable conductor. Thank 13 you. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone number 15 four, please. 16 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Yes. My name is Thomas 17 Domitrovich with Eaton. Two things -- 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking for, or 19 against? 20 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Oh, I'm sorry - speaking for 21 the motion that's on, on the floor - on the table. 22 First of all, the - it should be copper, not 23 Copper Clad Aluminum, I believe. But this, this 24 proposal - this, this change - as, as well as the 25 previous one, they're both not major changes. The

462 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 previous one was just a wording issue, and this is a, a 2 listing requirement, which we should be for listed 3 solutions being used in the field. So I speak in 4 support of the motion on the table. Thank you. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone number 6 one, please. 7 FRED HARTWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is 8 Fred Hartwell, and I have to say, in listening to the -- 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking for, or 10 against the motion? 11 FRED HARTWELL: I'm speaking in favor of the 12 motion. I, I have to say, in listening to the statement 13 from Panel 6, I find it absolutely preposterous. By 14 that language, we should not have listing requirements 15 anywhere in the code, you know, by that line of 16 reasoning. This is a perfectly reasonable requirement. 17 I don't know how in the world any AHJ is going to be 18 able to figure out, in the field, what the percentage of 19 copper is on a piece of wire. This is - this absolutely 20 should be listed. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Is there any further 22 discussion on Motion 70-22 to Accept an Identifiable 23 Part of Public Comment No. 1406? Mr. Johnston, do you 24 have any final comments? 25 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further to add,

463 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Mr. Chair. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 3 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 4 to Accept an Identifiable Part of Comment No. 1406. To 5 vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 6 support of the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 7 One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the 8 motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 9 'No'. Please record your vote. 10 Voting will close in five seconds. 11 The voting is closed. 12 There are 327 votes in favor of the motion; 71 13 against. The motion has passed. 14 Now let's proceed with the, the discussion on 15 Certified Amending Motion 70-23. Microphone four, 16 please. 17 PETER GRASER: Mr. Chair, I request to discuss 18 Certified Amending Motion 70-24 before 70-23, if that's 19 possible. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I'll be with you in one 21 second. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you want me to 23 (unintelligible)? 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We are going to move, at your

464 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 request, to 70-24, unless I get any dramatic response on 2 this. I don't think it's going to affect too much here. 3 So I will, I will do that. I will move to 70-24, and 4 then I'll come back to 70-23, and then we'll follow up 5 with 70-20, as I originally stated. 6 So let's now proceed with the discussion on 7 Certified Amending Motion 70-24. Microphone four, 8 please. 9 PETER GRASER: Yes. Peter Graser, Copperweld 10 Bimetallics; also the American Bimetallics Association. 11 I move to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment 12 No. 1382. 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a motion 14 on the floor to, to Accept an Identifiable Part of 15 Public Comment No. 1382. Is there a second? 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. Second. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 18 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 19 PETER GRASER: Yes. Peter Graser, from 20 Copperweld Bimetallics; the American Bimetallics 21 Association. I urge you to, to vote in favor of this 22 Certified Amending Motion. 23 Essentially, it's important for the Membership to 24 know that copper clad aluminum, aluminum, and copper, 25 are different metals altogether. They have their own

465 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 voltage potentials; they have their own rates of 2 corrosion; they have their own weights. They also have 3 their, their own resistance, and as well, their own ASTM 4 material certification numbers. So by, by all measures, 5 they're, they're different metals. 6 Essentially, the way that 310.16 and 310.17 read 7 currently, which are quite possibly the most referenced 8 tables in all of wiring methods - the reader only sees 9 two metals - aluminum, and copper. If they see aluminum 10 - if they see copper clad aluminum at all, they feel 11 like it's, it's aluminum. So this, this motion attempts 12 to create improved usability for the reader by 13 separating out the three metals. In, in this Certified 14 Amending Motion, there, there would be three columns, 15 each with its unique metal, and each with its unique 16 temperature, temperature columns - 60 degrees, 75 17 degree, and 90 degrees. 18 So this is important, because in the Second 19 Revision, 7736 and 7739, 14 gauge copper, copper clad 20 aluminum is, is a viable conductor for TC and MC cable 21 for control, remote control, and signal wire. It's - 22 that, that's significant because those are Class 1 23 wires. So those wires require a, a - they can carry up 24 to 600 volts. At 600 volts, that's the same voltage 25 that, say, residential branch service wire would have.

466 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 So it's, it's important that that be protected. And in 2 fact, in 725-34, there's a requirement for 14 gauge 3 overprotection. And so obviously, there has to be some 4 values set, set place. 5 So this chart, the new sets of, sets of tables 6 allow for that. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I'm sorry. Your time has 8 expired. Mr. Johnston, would you like to offer the 9 Panel's position? 10 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 11 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 12 the Correlating Committee on this issue. I'd like to 13 deer to the Chair of Code Panel 7, Keith Lofland, on 14 behalf of Code Panel 6. He's at mic three, I believe. 15 KEITH LOFLAND: I'm here. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 16 Keith Lofland, the International Association of 17 Electrical Inspectors, speaking on behalf of Code-Making 18 Panel 6. 19 And what this motion is seeking is to add 20 additional columns to the most widely used table in the 21 entire code book. And the Chair of Panel 6, anyway - 22 I'm not sure about the whole Panel, but the Chair of 23 Panel 6 feels like this would just add complexity to an 24 already semi-complex table; and, and the, the values, 25 the ampacity values in the added columns would be

467 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 identical to the ones for aluminum, once you get past 14 2 American wire, wire gauge. So I stand in opposition of 3 the motion. Thank you very much. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 5 open up the debate on this motion. Please - please 6 provide your name, affiliation, and whether you are 7 speaking in support, or against the motion. Microphone 8 three, please. 9 JACK LYONS: I'm Jack Lyons, represent NEMA Codes 10 and Standards Committee, that state their opposition to 11 the Motion to Accept the Identifiable Part in 1382 12 related - I'm sorry, for 13 - yeah, 1382, related to the 13 ampacity table, 16 and 17. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. Microphone two, please. 15 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter, with 16 Serra Wire, opposing the motion. As, as Mr. Lofland 17 read on one of the earlier, the earlier motions, the 18 Code-Making Panel, Code-Making Panel 6 did consider a 19 tremendous amount of data around the issue of adding 14 20 gauge copper clad aluminum. In this case particularly, 21 adding 14 gauge copper clad aluminum will result in 22 conflicts within the NEC. Unlike 14 gauge copper, and 23 other smaller conductors, 14 gauge copper clad aluminum 24 is not addressed in 240.4(D) for overcurrent protection 25 of small conductors. The result is that a 14 gauge

468 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 rated at 10 amps will be permitted on a 15 amp circuit 2 breaker. This creates a serious safety concern that 3 needs to be addressed before we add 14 gauge copper clad 4 aluminum. 5 Right now, none of our switches, receptacles, or 6 other equipment are tested with 14 gauge copper clad 7 aluminum conductors. There are 10 amp breakers on the 8 market, but they have not been tested with 14 gauge 9 copper clad aluminum conductors. Traditionally, the 10 minimum standard size, standard ampere rating in Table 11 240.6(A) is 15 amps. And while there may be opportunity 12 to add this conductor size in the future, we're going to 13 have to do a lot more work in the NEC to make sure that 14 installations are done safely. 15 As I mentioned, I'm a member of Code-Making Panel 16 6. Information was submitted to the panel that proves 17 that copper clad aluminum runs hotter than 14 gauge 18 copper, as we expected. If you support this motion, you 19 would be supporting the substation of 14 gauge copper 20 clad aluminum in place of 14 gauge copper, on 15 amp 21 breakers, which will run hotter than what is currently 22 allowed. 23 And as in the - as previously discussed by one of 24 the other, the other speakers, this will significantly 25 reduce the usability and readability of this table by

469 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 adding all of those extra columns. We'll go from six 2 columns of ampacity values, to nine columns of ampacity 3 values. And in every - in almost - in every case except 4 for the one that, that is being requested be added to 5 the table, the values are exactly the same for aluminum, 6 and for copper clad aluminum. So I'd request that you 7 please oppose this motion. Thank you. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 9 please. 10 CHARLES MELLOW: Charles Mellow, CDC Mellow 11 Consulting, speaking on the behalf of Copper clad - 12 Copperweld. I am speaking in favor of the motion. 13 We have a chicken and egg problem here, you know, 14 where a number of public inputs and public comments 15 submitted to the panels, including for Panel 10, for 16 240.4(D). Panel 10 decided not to act on it because 17 Panel 6 did not set up the ampacity. 18 To do the testing as was stated here on the 19 circuit breakers on the devices, one has to have an 20 ampacity for the conductor. And I want to bring up what 21 the definition of ampacity is, from Article 100. The 22 maximum current in amperes that a conductor can carry 23 continuously under the conditions of use, without 24 exceeding its temperature rating. 25 If you look at the conditions of use, as stated

470 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 by Panel 6 in 310.16, the conditions are: Conductors 2 are rated 0 to 2000 volts; conductors are rated 60 3 degrees c; 75 degrees c; or 90 degrees c, which is the 4 insulation classes. Wiring is installed in a 30 degree 5 c ambient, and there are not more than three current 6 carrying conductors. 7 310.17 is similar requirements, except you don't 8 have the - it's air, it doesn't have the three conductor 9 limit. 10 The issue here is, the ampacity needs to be set 11 for the conductor. Credible testing was done by a 12 recognized testing laboratory, and additional testing 13 was done by a different credible lab, recognized testing 14 laboratory, between the stages, and submitted with the 15 public comment. So we need to get the ampacity set, so 16 that we can go on and do future testing. We realize 17 that you're going to have some correlation issues as we 18 go down the road with this. 19 But I encourage the panel here, the Membership, 20 to accept this ampacity, get it in the table so that we 21 can move forward. Thank you. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 23 please. 24 PHIL SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 25 is Phil Simmons, and I'm speaking on behalf of myself.

471 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 And I urge the body here -- 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking for, or 3 against the motion? 4 PHIL SIMMONS: Ooh, well, I'm standing behind the 5 against -- 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Oh, don't start with that. 7 (laughter) 8 PHIL SIMMONS: Yes, I'm against. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We, we - we need a verbal. We 10 need a verbal on your description for the record, 11 please. 12 PHIL SIMMONS: Oh, okay. Well -- 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: It's not about the color. 14 PHIL SIMMONS: I'm speaking against. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 16 PHIL SIMMONS: Okay. I urge the body to, to 17 reject this motion, 70-24. Accepting it would introduce 18 a serious conflict in the, in the code, because they're 19 proposing an ampacity for 14 gauge copper clad aluminum. 20 And if you look at 310.3, it says the minimum size 21 conductor is No. 12 copper clad aluminum. And 310.3(A) 22 doesn't even allow No. 14 copper clad aluminum. 23 So 70-20, excuse me, the motion, intends to fix 24 that. But when you read through that motion, it, it, it 25 would read - the minimum size of conductors for voltage

472 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 ratings up to and including 2,000 volts shall be 14 AWG 2 copper, and copper clad aluminum; or 12 AWG - nothing - 3 because it's all struck out - except it's permitted 4 elsewhere in the code. You couldn't even use aluminum, 5 if 70-20 is accepted. So it seems like we have to 6 delete, or not accept 70-24. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone number 8 five, please. 9 RODRIGO BURN: Rodrigo Burn with Condocell 10 (phonetic), and the American Bimetallics Association. I 11 support the motion, and I'll try to break it down, my 12 two arguments. 13 As an ABA member, our, part of our mission is to 14 educate the public about what's a bimetallic, what's 15 copper clad aluminum, or copper clad steel. It 16 certainly - it's not copper; it's not aluminum. It's a 17 different metal, and one of the three legitimate metals 18 that are already recognized in code for our 19 applications. 20 So I think it's - it gets kind of confusing if 21 you get the aluminum and the copper clad aluminum on the 22 same columns. And trust me, in Latin America, and 23 Central America, and the Caribbean, the people often 24 think that copper clad aluminum, it's aluminum. So 25 copper clad aluminum terminates just like copper, and

473 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 it's a dissimilar metal than the aluminum. So it poses 2 a safety issue, that you have people thinking that 3 copper clad aluminum, and aluminum are the same thing; 4 they could intermix the two metals in a connector, or, 5 or what - it imposes a, a, a, a threat from that stand - 6 point of view. 7 And in regards of 14 AGW, the - I think the CAM 8 70-20 intends to include on the article already 9 mentioned, 14 AGW, copper clad aluminum. And enough 10 fact finding testing was presented to the Code-Making 11 Panel 6 from three different nationally recognized 12 testing labs that supports that 10 amps for 60 degrees 13 c, copper clad aluminum 14 AGW is safe, and it's really 14 viable, and it's not even close to the limit of the, the 15 temperature for that column. 16 So I urge, urge you to support the motion. Thank 17 you very much. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone one. 19 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, speaking for myself, 20 and thank you, Mr. Chair for clarifying that the color 21 of the sign, and the text does not indicate viewpoints. 22 With that, I call the question. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: All right. I'm going to give 25 you that one. You're not supposed to state a, any part

474 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 of a comment, but I'll give it to you because you're 2 giving me a compliment. 3 (laughter) 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: There's a motion on the floor 5 to call the question. I notice there are a number of 6 people remaining at the microphones waiting to speak, 7 but I'll proceed on the vote on the call on the 8 question. Do we have a second? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. In order 11 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the bottom 12 of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in support 13 of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 14 the motion, press - touch 'No'. Please record your 15 vote. 16 Five seconds. 17 The voting is closed. 18 The results are 387 in favor of calling the 19 question; 10 against. So the, the motion is passed to 20 call the question. 21 Therefore, before we vote, let me restate the 22 motion. The motion on the floor is to Accept an 23 Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 1382. To vote, 24 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support 25 of the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One,

475 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, 2 and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. 3 Please record your vote. 4 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 5 The voting is closed. 6 The results are: 68 in favor of the motion; 349 7 against the motion. The motion has failed. 8 Returning now as requested from the submitter, 9 we're going to go to Motion 70-23. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: So on 70-23, microphone four, 12 please. 13 PETER GRASER: Yes. Peter Graser, Copperweld 14 Bimetallics; the American Bimetallics Association. I 15 move to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment 16 No. 1382. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 18 on the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 19 Comment No. 1382. Is there a second? Is, is there a 20 second? 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. I got to - I need to 23 hear something. Thank you. We do have a second. 24 Please just continue with the discussion on the motion. 25 PETER GRASER: Mr. Chair, I would like to

476 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 withdraw this motion. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: You - I'm sorry - you would 3 have had to do that before you made the motion -- 4 PETER GRASER: Okay. I'm sorry. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: -- and I had a second. So -- 6 PETER GRASER: Yeah, sorry about that. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: If you want to put a bad 8 argument, that's your choice. 9 (laughter) 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I - yeah, I have to proceed 11 with the motion, since it was made, and seconded. 12 PETER GRASER: Great. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: All - you had your 14 (unintelligible). 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Call the question. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: So you -- 17 PETER GRASER: So - I call for question. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 19 PETER GRASER: Call for question. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Oh, God, I can't. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You can. Come on. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I - if you want to finish; if 24 that's your statement - I can't call the question -- 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Right.

477 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: -- based on you had a, a, a 2 positive response to make the motion. So I will go 3 ahead and go with the Chair's position. 4 PETER GRASER: Okay. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: And if you want to speak 6 against your own motion, please feel free to do so, but 7 I believe I have to proceed with the motion. 8 PETER GRASER: Okay. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. So I'll, I'll accept -- 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Well -- 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: -- that you're done. Mr. 12 Johnston, do you have any comment from the Panel? 13 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing from the Correlating - 14 - 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: From the Chair? 16 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: -- Committee, Mr. Chair. But 17 I would like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 7, who 18 is speaking on behalf of Code Panel 6, Keith Lofland, at 19 microphone 3, please. 20 KEITH LOFLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Keith 21 Lofland, representing IAEI; Chairman of Code-Making 22 Panel 7, speaking on behalf of Code Panel 6, and stand 23 in opposition to the motion. And I've got to admit, you 24 guys have me so confused, that I, I was arguing this one 25 the last time I was up here, so I've already said what I

478 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 needed to say -- 2 (laughter) 3 KEITH LOFLAND: -- that adding these extra 4 columns would just confuse the matter and, and I think 5 we've already hashed and discussed all that pretty 6 thoroughly. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Perfect. Thank you. Is there 8 any other comments - now I've got to flip my page. Are 9 there any further discussion on Motion 70-23 to Accept 10 an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 1382? Seeing 11 none - Mr. Chair, do you have any final comments? 12 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have 13 nothing further. Thank you. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank - thank you. Before we 15 vote, let me restate the motion. The motion on the 16 floor is to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 17 Comment 1382. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you 18 wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 19 text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote 20 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 21 Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 22 The voting will close in five seconds. 23 The voting is closed. 24 There were 55 in favor of the motion; and 356 25 votes against the motion. The motion has failed.

479 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Now, proceeding to the discussion on Certified 2 Amending Motion 70-20. Microphone four, please. 3 PETER GRASER: Mr. Chair, we would like to 4 withdraw this motion. 5 (laughter) 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. You have to 7 identify yourself, please. 8 (applause) 9 PETER GRASER: Peter Graser, Copperweld 10 Bimetallics. 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 12 PETER GRASER: And the American Bimetallics 13 Association. Thank you. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: The next motion, 70- - NFPA 15 70-20 appeared on our Agenda. However, the authorized 16 maker of the motion, or the designated representative 17 has notified NFPA that he no longer wishes to pursue 18 this motion. Therefore, in accordance with the NFPA 19 Rules, Convention Rules at Section 2.7, the motion may 20 not be considered by the assembly, and is removed from 21 the Agenda. We'll now move to the next motion. 22 The next motion of NFPA 70, 70-25, appeared on 23 our Agenda. However, the authorized maker of the motion 24 has notified NFPA that he no longer wishes to pursue 25 this motion. Therefore, in accordance with the NFPA

480 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Rules, Convention Rules at Section 2.7, the motion may 2 not be considered by the assembly, and is removed from 3 the Agenda. We'll now move to the next motion. I told 4 you I'd move this along. 5 (laughter) 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Now let's proceed with the 7 discussion on Certified Amending Motion 70-26. 8 Microphone four. 9 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Christel Hunter with 10 Serra Wire. I make a Motion to Accept Public Comment 11 No. 1502. 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a motion 13 on the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 1502. Is 14 there a second? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I heard a second. Before we 17 begin on this, the phrase, in parentheses, (that there 18 are four stories or fewer), that appears in No. 2 of 19 both the recommend text for passes or fails, was 20 included in the - in the Agenda in error. The text 21 which appears on the screens behind me reflect the 22 correct text. Please proceed. 23 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter, with 24 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. 25 The language that's being requested mirrors

481 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 allowances that have been in place in Massachusetts and 2 Michigan for decades. In the 1975 NEC, a three story 3 limitation for the use of nonmetallic sheath cable was 4 put in place. The states of Massachusetts and Michigan 5 amended the NEC to permit the use of NM cable in 6 buildings above three stories, and has been widely used 7 in mid-rise and high-rise buildings over the last four 8 decades. During this time, the use of nonmetallic 9 sheath cable in these buildings has been proven to be a 10 safe and reliable wiring method. 11 In the 2002 NEC, the three story limitation was 12 removed, and the use NM cable was tied to the building 13 construction type. Right now across the country, NM 14 cable is being used in multifamily dwellings, 15 warehouses, offices, retail buildings, and other 16 applications. 17 To give you an idea of the prevalence of NM 18 cable, the EPA reported that over eight billion feet of 19 NM cable was installed in 2007. Billions of feet are 20 installed every year, and most of us live in homes that 21 are wired with NM cable. There's no reason to believe 22 that NM cable would behave differently on the first 23 floor, the fourth floor, or the tenth floor of a 24 building. There are already code requirements for 25 physical protection of the cable - steel plates to

482 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 protect from nail penetrations; grommets to protect it 2 when pulled through steel framing; and other code 3 requirements that limit the potential for physical 4 damage. All the provisions are in place to use this 5 cable safely. So why change the code now? 6 We now have an additional 20 years of experience 7 in multiple areas where NM cable has been permitted, and 8 extensively used in these exact installations, with no 9 indications to support any safety concerns. In fact, 10 we've seen just the opposite. In the 2011 NEC code 11 cycle, the representative from the Massachusetts 12 Electrical Advisory Board put on the record that they 13 had no incidents tied to the use of these - this cable 14 in those applications. I had the opportunity to, to 15 speak with that representative again this week - you 16 know, it's been nine years - to see if there were any 17 changes, and the answer was no - no issues with using NM 18 cable in the applications that are being requested. 19 Thank you. Please support the motion on the floor. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 21 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: There were no correlation 23 issues, or conflicts identified by the Correlating 24 Committee. And I'd like to defer to the Chair of Code 25 Panel 7, talking on behalf of Code Panel 6, at

483 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 microphone three, please. 2 KEITH LOFLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Keith 3 Lofland, International Association of Electrical 4 Inspectors, speaking on behalf of Code-Making Panel 6. 5 This issue was addressed during the 2002 code 6 cycle, and a Task Group was formed at that time to look 7 at this, and the end result of that was that they 8 determined that the National Electric Code didn't need 9 to be in the business of dealing with the construction 10 types, and that that was better suited for the Building 11 Code. And so that's where we came to - where we had the 12 types of constructions that we have today that's 13 discussed. 14 So on behalf of the Chair of Code-Making Panel 7, 15 I stand in opposition of this motion. Thank you very 16 much. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 18 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 19 name, affiliation, and whether you're speaking in 20 support, or against the motion. Microphone three, 21 please. 22 JACK LYONS: Speaking against the motion. I'm 23 Jack Lyons, represent NEMA Codes and Standards 24 Committee, to state their opposition to the Motion to 25 Accept Public Comment 1502 related to building types and

484 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 uses permitted. Thank you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 3 please. 4 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 5 International, speaking for, for the Vinyl Institute. 6 The opposition by -- 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking for, or 8 against the motion? 9 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: So I'm speaking in favor of 10 the motion. I apologize. Thank you. 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: No - no worries. 12 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: I'm speaking in favor of the 13 motion. The opposition expressed by the Chair of Panel 14 6, stating that types of construction should not be in 15 the NEC, makes no sense when you look at Item 2, which 16 talks of Types 3, 4, 5, construction; Item 4 talks about 17 Types 3, 4, 5 construction. Item 5 talks about Types 3, 18 4, 5 construction. So why - what's wrong with adding 19 Type 1 and 2 construction, which is what this - is 20 proposed to be added. And ask - Ms. Hunter just said 21 this has been in, in two state codes for many years 22 without any unsuccessful use. Please support the 23 motion. Thank you. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone 3, 25 please.

485 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 DALE CRAWFORD: Dale Crawford, Steel Tube 2 Institute, speaking against the motion. 3 This motion would permit NM cable to be used in 4 Type 1 and Type 2 building type constructions. These 5 building types are, by definition, constructed of 6 noncombustible building materials, and they cannot have 7 combustible materials, and have very stringent smoke 8 development and flame spread indexes. NM cable does not 9 meet any of these standards. Because of this, soft- 10 jacketed NM cable is a wiring method that is not fully 11 compatible with Type 1 and Type 2 construction, 12 regardless of the occupancy, or the use of the building. 13 It is simply not an appropriate cable and building 14 material for these type of buildings. These buildings 15 tend to be very large, and very tall buildings, with 16 very high levels of occupancy, having shared 17 environmental air conditions - conditioning systems. 18 Combustible wiring methods and materials could result in 19 significant hazards under fire conditions, or if faults 20 on the electrical system were to occur. 21 Type 1 and 2 construction are those types of 22 construction in which the building elements listed in 23 Table 601 are of noncombustible materials, except as 24 permitted in Section 603 and elsewhere in this code. 25 Section 603 consists of criteria dealing with the flame

486 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and smoke spread limitations, or some other testing 2 standard. 3 603.1.3 enforces this by saying the use of 4 electrical wiring methods with combustible insulation, 5 tubing, raceways, and related components shall be 6 permitted where installed in accordance with the 7 limitations of this code. 8 Some of these limitations are - tell us - are 9 outlined in Chapter 7 and Chapter 9 - for example, 703.2 10 tells us the fire resistive rating of building elements, 11 components, or assembly shall be determined in 12 accordance with the test procedures set forth in ASTM 13 E111, or UL 263, or in accordance with 703.3. 14 It should also be noted that just because this is 15 allowed in one or two states, that this is not a 16 sufficient reason to push this change through for all 50 17 states. This may be allowed in one jurisdiction, but it 18 does not mean that it is a standard or advisable 19 construction practice in those areas. Reference to 20 local codes is inappropriate, since they are not 21 nationally recognized. Installation practices vary 22 throughout the country. If we wanted to use local 23 jurisdiction for substantiation to change the national 24 code, then I would point to the use of Chicago as an 25 example, to require all branch circuits be done in steel

487 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 conduit. 2 No technical substantiation has been provided to 3 support the expansion of the use of soft-jacketed cable 4 for use in these building types. NM is a combustible 5 building material, and should not be allowed in a 6 noncombustible building type. Please vote against this 7 motion. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone three 9 again, please. 10 GEORGE STRANIERO: I'm George Straniero with AFC, 11 speaking against the motion. 12 The level of mechanical production of fire 13 resistance currently provided by the NEC for multifamily 14 occupancy in Type 1 and 2 buildings, is represented by 15 conduit type wiring methods, and by metallic sheath 16 cables. These wiring methods provide a high level of 17 mechanical protection, and possess an inherent ability 18 to resist flame ignition, propagation, and smoke. 19 Permitting NM cable for multifamily occupancies 20 in Type 1 and Type 2 buildings is simply extreme 21 reduction in the level of mechanical protection and fire 22 resistance of the wiring method. 23 The public comment does not provide any 24 substantiation as to why a lower level of performance is 25 warranted, or that the construction of NM has been

488 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 increased so as to provide a higher level of 2 performance. I request that you vote against the, the 3 motion on the floor. Thank you. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. I'm going to go 5 with microphone four, please. 6 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter, with 7 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. 8 There was a comment about noncombustible wiring 9 types being required in Type 1 and Type 2 buildings. 10 What's interesting is that the National Electrical Code 11 right now allows electrical nonmetallic tubing, commonly 12 known as smurf tube, in Type 1 and Type 2 buildings, of 13 unlimited height. The Building Code does not restrict 14 these writing types. The Building Code does have 15 requirements, but it refers to the National Electrical 16 Code for those wiring types. 17 And the, there was a, a comment that the public 18 comment didn't give substantiation for why a lower bar 19 should be set, essentially - because we're not setting a 20 lower bar. We've already seen that this cable can be 21 successfully used in Type 1 and Type 2 buildings. As a 22 matter of fact, it is already used in Type 1 and Type 2 23 buildings. The reason that Item 2 says multifamily 24 dwellings permitted to be of Types 3, 4, and 5 - and 25 the, the reason that term and that phraseology is used,

489 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 is there are already buildings that are Type 1 and Type 2 2, but that could have been designated Type 3, 4, and 5. 3 So it is appropriate for Type 1 and Type 2 buildings. 4 Thank you. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. I have three 6 gentlemen over here that were in line at the same time. 7 Microphone three. 8 JOE ANDRE: Thank you. Joe Andre, from the Steel 9 Tube Institute, rising in opposition. 10 I'll address the comment that was just made about 11 ENT. And it's true that it is allowed. But there are 12 restrictions about where you can use that. It has to be 13 behind a 15-minute finish rating. Those words don't 14 appear here - not that people would do it very often, 15 but adopting this would allow an M cable to be run 16 exposed in Type - in noncombustible buildings. That's 17 pretty scary. 18 The other thing that I just want to mention is, I 19 just want to refer back to the Panel's statement when 20 they rejected this. And it, it said this was 21 extensively reviewed by the Code-Making Panel, and by a 22 Task Force back in the 2002 edition of the NEC, and it 23 referred to extensive documentation. We couldn't read 24 all it and finish in this week the amount of document in 25 opposition.

490 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I'll refer also to those days when there was an 2 ICC electrical code that had very similar language, and 3 the entire electrical industry rose up in opposition to 4 that. And I think it's notable to remember that not a 5 single manufacturer of NM cable supported the ICC 6 expansion, very similar to what we're doing here. So I 7 urge you to reject this proposal. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two. 9 FRED HARTWELL: Thank you. Fred Hartwell, and I 10 imagine there are some people -- 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you - are you speaking 12 for, or against? 13 FRED HARTWELL: So I'm speaking against the 14 motion. And I imagine there are a number of people in 15 here that are kind of expecting, as the Secretary of the 16 Massachusetts Committee, that I might be speaking in 17 favor of it. I'm not. 18 And the reason is that the - and, and we do 19 address this in Massachusetts, and we do allow it, but 20 only behind a fire finish. And we take the requirement 21 for smurf tube, and allow this in a, an application 22 that's the same as the National Electrical Code does 23 allow for smurf tube. And so that is a fundamentally 24 different situation than is presented in this motion. 25 And although I have some - I, I'm fascinated by the

491 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 motion, and I have some sympathy for it, but I cannot 2 support it. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone three, 4 please. 5 TOM WARREM (phonetic): Thank you. I'm Tom 6 Warrem, speaking on my own behalf, in opposition of the 7 motion on the floor. 8 Some of the confusion I see is if, if we look at 9 Item No. 2 for multifamily dwellings, we're not 10 permitted to use NM cable in a Type 3, 4, or 5 11 construction. We're not permitted to use it - or - so 12 when you look at a dwelling unit, can we use on a Type 1 13 or 2 construction, NM cable within a multifamily 14 dwelling, when it's not permitted in a multifamily 15 dwelling. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 17 further discussion on Motion 70-26 to Accept Public 18 Comment No. 1502? Microphone number four. 19 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Just a quick 20 clarification. Chris Hunter with Serra Wire, in support 21 of the motion. I, I didn't quite understand the last 22 comment, because No. 2 does allow NM cable in 23 multifamily dwellings permitted to be of Types 3, 4, and 24 5 construction. That's the whole purpose of that part 25 of the code. So it definitely does allow it. Thank

492 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 3 further discussion on Motion 70-26 to Accept Public 4 Comment No. 1502? Mr. Johnston, do you have any final 5 comments? 6 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have 7 nothing further. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Before we vote, let me restate 9 the motion. The motion on the floor is to Accept Public 10 Comment No. 1502. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If 11 you wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend 12 the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 13 vote against the motion, and recommend the text on 14 Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 15 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 16 The voting is closed. 17 The results are: 89 in favor of the motion; 307 18 against the motion. The motion has failed. 19 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 20 Certified Amending Motion 70-27. Microphone four, 21 please. 22 HOWARD HERNDON: This is Howard Herndon, 23 representing the Professional Electrical Apparatus 24 Reconditioners League. I'd like to make a Motion to 25 Reject Second Revision 8187.

493 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a motion 2 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 8187. Is 3 there a second? Is there a second? 4 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Thank you. We do 7 have a second. Please proceed with the discussion on 8 the motion. 9 HOWARD HERNDON: This is a very interesting 10 motion. But receptacles come in many different sizes, 11 and types. For instance, I'm sure the intent of the 12 Code Committee as to keep a 20 amp duplex receptacle, or 13 a 15 amp duplex receptacle from being reconditioned, 14 which - nobody wants that reconditioned. 15 But it does not allow us to recondition a 60, 16 100, or a 200 amp pin and sleeve receptacle. So I would 17 like to see this struck so that we can get back into 18 some further attention to detailed, and get it clarified 19 further. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 21 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 23 were no correlation issues or conflicts that were 24 identified by the Correlating Committee, but I will like 25 to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 18, Bobby Gray, and

494 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I think he's at microphone three. 2 BOBBY GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is 3 Bobby Gray, with Hoytabuck (phonetic) Electric. I 4 represent the National Electrical Contractors 5 Association; Chair of Code-Making Panel 18. I'd like to 6 speak in opposition of the motion, and in support of the 7 action taken by the Committee. 8 The Committee discussed this in detail, and were 9 unified in their opinion that receptacles should not be 10 reconditioned. They also reinforced the fact that some 11 receptacles, as was pointed out by the, by the 12 submitter, are - do have serviceable parts, and those 13 would not be considered reconditioned, as explained back 14 in 110.21. 15 So again, we're in opposition of the motion. 16 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. And I'm going to 18 go in order here. Microphone three again. 19 MIKE STONE: Mike Stone, representing NEMA. NEMA 20 opposes this Motion to Reject Second Revision 8187. 21 Thank you. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone number 23 four, please. 24 RANDY HUNTER: Randy Hunter, Hunter Technical 25 Services, representing myself. And as you can see,

495 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 we've had a little bit of discussion here that there are 2 applications -- 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you for, or against the 4 motion? 5 RANDY HUNTER: I am for the motion - sorry. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 7 RANDY HUNTER: There are applications. There are 8 applications that could be rebuilt. And the obvious 9 thing here is this language was not vetted properly. It 10 wasn't open for public review because it was new 11 language brought in during the comments stage. They're 12 trying to attach it again to the rebuilt subject that 13 was brought in in 110, which was only talking about 14 listing, and the labeling part, and taking off the 15 listing. This language of - put in here, stating that - 16 what cannot be rebuilt, is totally new during the 17 comments stage. 18 I have a hard time understanding how we can add 19 language in various places within the code, that have a 20 list of prohibited items, and say that that is not new 21 language, when the original public input they're 22 relating it to only talked about listing and labeling of 23 remanufactured. 24 So to me, it's an issue. If it had had public 25 comment, some of these little details that we're talking

496 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 about, of the pin and sleeve items that are serviceable, 2 could have been addressed, and we could have wrote 3 cleaner language here than we have. 4 It's my opinion that this should be held, so that 5 we can get input from everybody. Thank you. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 7 please. 8 JOHN MCKENZIE: John McKenzie, representing 9 Schneider Electric. We believe that while pin and 10 sleeve receptacles are -- 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking for, or 12 against the -- 13 JOHN MCKENZIE: I -- 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: -- the motion? 15 JOHN MCKENZIE: I apologize. I'm speaking 16 against the resolution. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 18 JOHN MCKENZIE: We believe that while pin and 19 sleeve receptacle types are serviceable, there are times 20 when they are not reconditionable. We stand in 21 opposition. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 23 please. 24 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 25 is Jim Dollard, representing the International

497 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in 2 opposition to the motion on the floor. 3 We just heard that this motion should be accepted 4 because it's new material. I want to point out to the 5 body on this floor that we're belaboring this. We're 6 going over, and over - and, and they're, they're going 7 to go to every one. But I want to get it in the record, 8 for Standards Council, and for this body, that they're 9 just cherry picking. 10 I wanted to wait until we got out of Article 240, 11 because there's a new Section 240.88, which gets into 12 reconditioned equipment dealing with circuit breakers. 13 And it specifically permits low voltage, and medium 14 voltage power circuit breakers, and high voltage circuit 15 breakers to be reconditioned. 16 So the individuals that are telling you that this 17 is new material left that there because they like it. 18 Let's, let's oppose this motion, and every other one 19 that hits the floor. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 21 please. 22 (applause) 23 BILL FISKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Bill 24 Fiske with Intertek, and I am speaking against this 25 motion.

498 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The maker of the motion stated that there are 2 larger pin and sleeve receptacles which are amenable to 3 reconditioning. However, this is very sweeping 4 language, and it doesn't exclude anything. To remove 5 that last sentence permits any receptacle to be 6 reconditioned. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 8 please. 9 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 10 Serra Wire, in support of the motion. 11 The statement that the, the submitters of some of 12 these motions were cherry picking is incorrect. 13 Unfortunately, the submitters of some of these motions 14 just missed one. 15 The language in 240.88 is new material, and 16 dearly wish that it would have been submitted as a 17 motion, as well. It showed up for the very first time 18 in the Second Draft, with no public review. And it's 19 just unfortunate that it was missed. It was simply an 20 oversight, and at - like the others, it should have 21 public review. Thank you. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Are there any 23 further discussion on Motion - microphone two. 24 FRED HARTWELL: Yeah. Fred Hartwell. When I 25 first looked at this --

499 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking -- 2 FRED HARTWELL: -- I immediately thought -- 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Your name, affiliation -- 4 FRED HARTWELL: Yeah. I, I'm speaking for 5 myself, and I'm speaking against the motion. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 7 FRED HARTWELL: When I first looked at this, I 8 thought, 'You know, I could support this,' thinking of 9 pin and sleeve receptacles. But no, there's a reason 10 why the definition excludes one to one replacements of 11 these parts. Yes, there are parts in a pin and sleeve 12 receptacle that are field serviceable. You can take a, 13 a contact tube out, and replace it with a, a, a, a new 14 one from the manufacturer that meets current 15 requirements. And that can, that can be done, and it is 16 not reconditioning. It is, you know, it is a, a one for 17 one replacement of a component. And that's different 18 than reconditioning. It's not covered in the definition 19 of reconditioning. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 21 further discussion on Motion 70-27 to Reject Second 22 Revision No. 8187? Mr. Johnston, do you have any final 23 comments? 24 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have 25 nothing further to add.

500 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Before we vote, let me restate 2 the motion. The motion on the floor is to Reject Second 3 Revision No. 8187. Touch - to vote, touch the 'vote' 4 button. If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 5 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 6 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 7 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 8 vote. 9 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 10 The voting is closed. 11 The results are: 18 in favor of the motion; 401 12 against the motion. The motion has failed. 13 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 14 Certified Amending Motion 70-28. Microphone four, 15 please. 16 HOWARD HERNDON: Motion 70.28 - Howard Herndon, 17 Professional Electrical Apparatus Reconditioners League, 18 Rejecting the Revision 8189. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 20 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 80 - 8189. 21 Is there a second? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 25 proceed with the discussion of the motion.

501 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 HOWARD HERNDON: Our discussion with this is very 2 similar to the discussion with the receptacles. A cord 3 attachment plug could be a 60, hundred, a hundred, or 4 200 amp pin and sleeve connector. And the only thing I 5 would add to this is - is taking the manufacturer's part 6 out of a package, is that reconditioning, refurbishing? 7 I'm not really sure, based on our new definition. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 9 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 10 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 11 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 12 the Correlating Committee, with this issue. I would 13 like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 18, Bobby Gray, 14 at microphone three, please. 15 BOBBY GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Bobby Tray, 16 Hoytabuck (phonetic) Electric, representing the National 17 Electrical Contractors Association; chair of Code-Making 18 Panel 18. I stand in opposition of the motion, and in 19 support of the action taken by the Committee. 20 Again, it was a total alignment of all Committee 21 members in supporting this opinion that these devices, 22 these wiring devices, should not be allowed to be 23 reconditioned. Once again, in several ballot statements 24 it was made clear by Committee members that replacement 25 of serviceable parts do not constitute reconditioning of

502 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 electrical equipment. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone - well, 3 with, with that, we'll open up the debate on the motion. 4 Please provide your name, affiliation, and whether you 5 are speaking in support, or against the motion. 6 Microphone three, please. 7 BRIAN HOLLAND: Brian Holland, NEMA Codes and 8 Standards, call the question, please. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 10 (applause) 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. 13 (laughter) 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Seeing that there was no one 15 else at a microphone, I notice there's a motion to call 16 the question. Do we have a second? 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. In order 19 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the bottom 20 of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in support 21 of the motion to call the question, touch 'Yes'. If you 22 wish to vote against the motion to call the question, 23 touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 24 The voting will close in five seconds. 25 The voting is closed.

503 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 And the - the results of the call the question 2 are 370 in favor; and 10 opposed. So the vote was in 3 favor of calling the question. 4 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The 5 motion on the floor is to Reject Second Revision No. 6 8189. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to 7 vote in support of the motion, and recommend the text on 8 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 9 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 10 'No'. Please record your vote. 11 Voting will be closed in five seconds. 12 The voting is closed. 13 The results are: 17 in favor of the motion; 403 14 against the motion. The motion has failed. 15 Now, let's proceed with the discussion on 16 Certified Amending Motion 70-29. Microphone four? 17 DAVID SHAPIRO: I'm David Shapiro. I move to 18 Accept Public Comment No. 1123, Motion 70-29. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 20 on the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 1123. Is 21 there a second? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 24 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 25 DAVID SHAPIRO: David Shapiro, representing

504 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 myself, and in favor of the motion. 2 So I get a, a service call. Somebody has 3 something going wrong with their wiring. They're 4 worried. What do I do? I say, 'Hey, can you kill the 5 circuit?' Maybe yes, maybe no. It is a problem that's 6 been seen in the field, and I've heard about it from 7 across the country. And it's a problem that ironically 8 is because the person who's responsible for installing 9 the equipment and labeling the circuit, tends to be a 10 qualified professional. And the person inspecting and 11 approving it. And if that sounds odd - let me tell you 12 what I heard from Nick Sazza (phonetic), the man who 13 came up with the original proposal. 14 He said that when he had a chance on inspection, 15 he'd take the occupant, the, the facility manager, or 16 the homeowner, whoever it was, and he'd stand in front 17 of the load center. And said, 'Hey, if those lights 18 down there were flickering, and you thought maybe there 19 was a crackling sound from that switch, you'd probably 20 want to kill the circuit. Right?' 'Yeah.' 'Okay. 21 Which of these would you flip?' He said nine times out 22 of ten - I'm shaking my head, because they wouldn't have 23 a clue. 24 And the point is, this was - even when Nick could 25 look at it, and it was clear and evident to him, as a

505 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 qualified professional - it's circuit seven. 2 Now, the reason for this is something that comes 3 up in a lot of fields, where an expert is trying to 4 communicate - the - it's been studied, and the 5 scientists call it the curse of knowledge. The idea 6 being that I've been doing this stuff so long, that 7 jargon, and abbreviations, and odd little terms that - 8 and even symbols that I may put on the panel - well, I'd 9 come there, inspect, I recognize that. It's plain 10 English to me. But it isn't, necessarily, to the end 11 user. So I asked some of these scientists, 'What do you 12 do?' And the best answer they came up with is you warn 13 - not the ding-a-ling - you warn the end user that, you 14 know, you warn the, the qualified professional to think 15 of the end user. Think of somebody other than me, 16 somebody different who doesn't have my background. 17 And checked this wording out with Dr. Birch 18 (phonetic), who's done some of the latest research, and 19 just was told, 'Yeah, that's the sort of thing you say. 20 Think about somebody other than you.' Just like we 21 don't say high voltage, because an electrician knows 22 what that means. Watch it. We say danger, high voltage 23 keep out so that anybody who might be in a position, 24 they might need to use it - not a little kid, not 25 somebody who can't see, but somebody who might

506 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 realistically be on the site, can use it. And also, the 2 electrician who didn't have our same background, because 3 there are electricians in this country who use 4 abbreviations that I don't know. And if I'm traveling 5 to that jurisdiction, I might be lost, too. Simplest, 6 plainest English. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I'm sorry, I have to interrupt 8 you. Your time has expired. Mr. Johnston, would you 9 like to offer the Panel's position? 10 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 11 were no correlation or - issues or conflicts identified 12 by the Correlating Committee. However, I'd like to 13 defer to the Chair of Code Panel 9, David Humphrey, and 14 I believe he's at microphone three, please. 15 DAVID HUMPHREY: I'm David Humphrey, Chair of 16 Code-Making Panel 9, and I represent the International 17 Association of Electrical Inspectors, and I stand in 18 opposition to the motion. 19 The current language is both clear, direct, and 20 concise. We specifically are required to identify each 21 circuit, for its specific purpose, in a manner that's 22 clear and evident. You can't get too much more concise 23 than that. 24 Part of this substantiation that the Panel noted 25 in the submitter's substantiation, was that alternate

507 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 languages may be required. And this poses a tremendous 2 burden on installer, and inspector. So we encourage 3 that you defeat this motion. And it should also be 4 noted that even by unqualified persons - the code is not 5 intended to be written for unqualified persons. Thank 6 you. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 8 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 9 name, affiliation, and whether you're speaking in 10 support, or against the motion. Microphone four, 11 please. 12 DAVE SHAPIRO: Dave Shapiro, for myself, in favor 13 of the motion. I apologize to Mr. Humphrey, if I gave 14 the impression my substantiation as talking about using 15 alternate languages. That is not my intent. 16 But let me give you an example. There's a, a 17 well known electrical instructor who told me he came 18 across a clear, evident marking, where it said 'MBR' and 19 then a circle with two lines down it. And that's clear 20 and evident to me. It means the receptacles. But it 21 doesn't mean that to the people who may be on the site. 22 There are electricians who write 'D + D' in many 23 jurisdictions. Until I started researching this, I 24 never knew that this was a common abbreviation, and 25 initials, and it meant, 'dishwasher and disposal'. So

508 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 if I'd been in that jurisdiction, I wouldn't have had a 2 clue. 3 Now, I'm not saying everything has to be in the 4 simplest English that any moron is gonna get it, and 5 that it has to be Spanish, and Tagalog and, and 6 whatever. But you know, if you're in a, a jurisdiction 7 where you're inspecting a hall like this - there are 8 people who've written 'poke-through'. Well, I'm an 9 electrician. I figure they must mean the floor 10 receptacles in this room. But if the facility manager's 11 there, and his maintenance guy looks at that - it's 12 clear to me. It's not clear to him. That's, that's the 13 - that's my concern here. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 15 please. 16 PAUL ABERNATHY (phonetic). Hi. My name is Paul 17 Abernathy, and I represent Encore Wire, and I speak in 18 opposition to this motion. 19 As an electrician for over 30 years, and 20 instructor, when I read this it says it has to be clear, 21 evident, and specific purpose. I think we do that. I 22 think the, the efforts by the electricians in there is 23 to try to achieve that. But when we get down to where 24 it says each circuit's got to be distinguished from, all 25 others - when I list something and say 'master bedroom',

509 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and I expect somebody that's unqualified - is the intent 2 here for me to actually write 'love shack' on that 3 breaker's label -- 4 (laughter) 5 PAUL ABERNATHY: -- on that breaker's label? Is 6 that distinguished enough for the unqualified person? 7 I'm not sure. I think it's very clear when we label it. 8 Thank you. 9 (laughter) 10 (applause) 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Just go straight to the 13 (unintelligible) 14 (laughter) 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Even I get lectured. Okay. 16 (laughter) 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I'm not seeing anybody at a 18 microphone, so is there any further discussion on Motion 19 70-29 to Accept Public Comment 1123? Mr. Johnston, do 20 you have any final comments? 21 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, 22 especially on a love shack. 23 (laughter) 24 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Just, just, just took me back 25 a little bit, that's all.

510 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (laughter) 2 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. I'm turning red. 4 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The motion 5 on the floor is to Accept Public Comment 1123. To vote, 6 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support 7 of the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, 8 touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, 9 and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. 10 Please record your vote. 11 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 12 The voting is closed. 13 The vote is 46 in favor of the motion; 381 14 against the motion. The motion has failed. 15 Now, let's proceed to the discussion on Certified 16 Amending Motion 70-30. Microphone four, I believe. 17 HOWARD HERNDON: Yes, Sir. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. 19 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard Herndon, Professional 20 Electrical Apparatus. We're - Motion 70.30 - 70-30 21 Reject Second Revision 8172. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 23 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 8172. Is 24 there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. Second.

511 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 3 HOWARD HERNDON: In general, we do not have a 4 problem with this entire statement, except for the 5 conflicting remarks at - on Item B - switchboards and 6 switch gear, or sections of switchboard and switch gear 7 shall be permitted to be reconditioned. Reconditioned 8 switch gear shall be listed. And notice that it said 9 'reconditioned switch gear'. Shouldn't it say 10 'switchboards and switch gear' shall be listed and field 11 labeled as reconditioned? Previously applied listed 12 marks - if any within the previous portions of the 13 reconditions shall be removed. 14 So we think there's some issues here with 15 wording, and we would like to have this sent back to 16 have it reworded and cleaned up a little bit, so it's 17 nice and clear. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 19 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 20 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 21 There were no Correlating Committee issues identified, 22 and I would like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 9, 23 David Humphrey, at microphone three, please. 24 DAVID HUMPHREY: Yes, I'm David Humphrey, Chair 25 of Code-Making Panel 9, and I represent the

512 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 International Association of Electrical Inspectors. I 2 stand in opposition to the motion. 3 Code-Making Panel 9 takes the position that 4 switchboards and switch gear lend themselves to 5 reconditioning, as they are generally constructed on 6 site, due to the practical concerns with removal and 7 replacement. When coupled with a field evaluation, will 8 provide a safe and cost effective solution. 9 Panel boards are, are the bussing that is 10 generally installed in cabinets, and is easily 11 replaceable, as field evaluation is not practical. 12 Panel boards in dwelling units are often replaced due to 13 contact with smoke, and other products of combustion 14 that will likely have a damaging effect on the metal 15 bussing, and as such does reconditioning would be 16 effective, or safe. Thank you. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 19 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 20 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 21 support, or against the motion. Microphone three, 22 please. 23 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 24 is Jim Dollard, representing the International 25 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, and I rise in

513 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 opposition to the motion. 2 You need to take a look at SR 8172. Throughout 3 the evening, there has been several issues with some of 4 the language on the screen. We have to keep in mind 5 that each committee took a look at all of the equipment 6 under their purview, and this revision was done by the 7 Code-Making Panel members on Panel 9. 8 I wish this would not be belabored all night 9 long. But this is sound. It's not new material. And I 10 urge this body to oppose this motion - reject the motion 11 on the floor. We've got three more coming right after 12 it. 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 14 please. 15 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 16 Serra Wire, speaking in support of the motion. 17 As a manufacturing facility operator, there are 18 concerns that the language in this revision will result 19 in the premature replacement of equipment, and extended 20 down time. 21 During the Second Revision balloting, the IEEE 22 voted - voted against adding this language to the NEC, 23 and submitted a comment that said, quote, 'The language 24 in this Second Revision has not had sufficient public 25 review. Users of the NEC have not been able to review

514 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the proposed language, evaluate the impact on their 2 facility, and have a chance to respond and comment on 3 the proposed wording. Due to the large amount of 4 installed electrical equipment of varying ages, 5 reconditioning of equipment occurs regularly in 6 industrial facilities to maintain or improve safety and 7 integrity of equipment. Those users need a sufficient 8 opportunity to review and comment on the proposed 9 language.' Unquote. 10 As an organization of 400,000 members, and 11 representing the user interest on this Code Panel, the 12 IEEE objections should be given serious consideration. 13 They also pointed out that, quote, 'The proposed wording 14 requires the use of design qualified parts verified 15 under applicable standards. The term 'design qualified 16 parts' is not defined in the NEC. There is no clear 17 understanding on what parts can be classified per this 18 term. For example, it can be interpreted that design 19 qualified parts can refer to only the exact parts used 20 in the original design of the equipment. That 21 interpretation is extremely problematic for older 22 equipment where original parts are no longer available, 23 and the manufacturer is no longer in business. Using 24 the term 'design qualified parts' creates confusion, and 25 the inability to meet the proposed requirement.'

515 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Unquote. 2 As in earlier motions, this language appeared in 3 the Second Draft, and it was not based on any similar 4 language or requirement that was considered in the First 5 Draft. That lack of public review has resulted in a 6 confusing set of rules that have the potential to create 7 an extremely negative impact on American manufacturers. 8 Thank you. Please support the motion. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 10 please. 11 BILL FISKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Bill 12 Fiske of Intertek, speaking against this motion. When 13 Mr. Herndon introduced it, he noted some deficiencies, 14 with a few words missing from Subsection B. That does 15 not strike me as any reason to delete the entire 16 section, which is what the motion purports to do. This 17 strikes me as a stealth approach to removing all rules 18 regarding reconditioning of switchboards and panel 19 boards. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 21 please. 22 FRED HARTWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fred 23 Hartwell, a member of Code Panel 9, speaking against the 24 motion. 25 The - it is possible to excessively enforce any

516 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 section of the code. And to apply the term 'design 2 qualified parts' in a way that effectively removes the 3 possibility is a clear over-enforcement, if you will, 4 and it - that is on that particular jurisdiction. It is 5 not on the code. 6 Now, I'm speaking as the Chairman of Task Group 2 7 in Code Panel 9. And Task Group 2 was responsible for 8 this language. And I want to say a little something 9 about the absence of the word 'switchboards' in B, where 10 it says 'reconditioned switch gear'. That is an error. 11 I will take responsibility for that error. 12 What happened was, we had to develop language, 13 both here and for Article 490, because the comment we 14 got that asked us to deal with medium voltage, and 15 medium voltage equipment is out of the scope of Article 16 408. In, in the process - in 490, it's only switch 17 gear. And in the process of moving material between 18 those two Articles, it got lost. And as I said, that is 19 on me. 20 There are some discussions taking place right now 21 as to whether we need a TIA on this, or whether we can 22 rely on the Standards Authority's - the - and the test 23 labs to apply this to switchboards, as well as switch 24 gear, which it plainly should apply to. 25 I don't know where that's going to come out.

517 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 It's a small thing to fix. But basically, the wording 2 here is sound. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 4 please. 5 JOHN MCKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 6 is John McKenzie. I represent Schneider Electric, and 7 we oppose this motion. 8 As mentioned before, Schneider Electric is not 9 only a manufacturer. We also are reconditioners. As a 10 designer of products, we know that there can be 11 proprietary and patented methods and procedures used in 12 the design and manufacturing process. This includes the 13 concept of design qualified parts, which is well 14 understood in the industry. Reconditioning without 15 knowledge of these methods and procedures can result in 16 an unsafe product. Knowledge of these methods and 17 procedures can also inform us when it is not safe to 18 recondition a product at all - not even by the original 19 manufacturer. We oppose this motion. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, I 21 believe. 22 DAVID SHAPIRO: David Shapiro, speaking for 23 myself, against the motion. 24 I want to speak to one small piece of it, which 25 is the panel boards, and the concern that Ms. Hunter

518 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 mentioned about the excessive down time. I don't know 2 if that applied to panel boards per se. But just in 3 case it did - you are not reconditioning a panel board 4 if you leave the cabinet there, leave the conductors in 5 it, and remove the guts, and replace them with OEM 6 product. And you've saved the time. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two. 8 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: My name is Thomas 9 Domitrovich, with Eaton, and I speak in opposition to 10 the motion on the, on the floor. 11 I will make myself brief. I'm a - we are a 12 manufacturer of electrical equipment. Reconditioning 13 this equipment is not a simple matter, and what the, 14 what the Panel has constructed in code language is very 15 sound, and any minor issues can be resolved, I'm sure, 16 as time progresses. So thank you, and I support the - 17 and again, urge everyone to - to not support this motion 18 on the table. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 20 further discussion on Motion 30-70 to Reject Second 21 Revision 8172? Mr. Johnston, do you have any final 22 comment? 23 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further to add, 24 Mr. Chair. Thank you. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote,

519 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 2 to reject Second Revision 8172. To vote, touch the 3 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 4 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 5 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 6 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 7 record your vote. 8 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 9 The voting is closed. 10 The results are: 16 in favor of the motion; 401 11 against the motion. The motion has failed. 12 Now, let's proceed with the discussion on 13 Certified Amending Motion 70-31. Microphone four? 14 HOWARD HERNDON: Yes, Sir. Motion 70-31 -- 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: And can you please get a 16 little closer -- 17 HOWARD HERNDON: Oh. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: -- to the microphone, please. 19 I'm sorry. 20 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard Herndon with PEARL 21 Professional Electrical Apparatus - it's getting late. 22 Professional Electrical Apparatus Reconditioners League. 23 We would respectfully withdraw this motion. 24 (applause) 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. So the Motion 70-

520 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 31 appeared on our Agenda. However, the authorized 2 maker of the motion has notified NFPA that he no longer 3 wishes to pursue this motion. Therefore, in accordance 4 with the NFPA Rules, Convention Rules at Section 2.7, 5 the motion may not be considered by the assembly, and 6 its removed from the Agenda. We will now move on to the 7 next motion. 8 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 9 Certified Amending Motion 70-32. Microphone four, 10 please. 11 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard Herndon, representing 12 PEARL, on Motion 70.32 to Reject 8164. We are going to 13 withdraw this motion. 14 (applause) 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Motion 70-32 16 appeared on our Agenda. However, the authorized maker 17 of the motion has notified NFPA that he no longer wishes 18 to pursue this motion. Therefore, in accordance with 19 the NFPA Rules, Convention Rules at Section 2.7, the 20 motion may not be considered by the assembly, and its 21 removed from the Agenda. We'll now move on to the next 22 motion. 23 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 24 Certified Amending Motion 70-33. Microphone four, 25 please.

521 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard Herndon, representing 2 PEARL. Motion 70.33, Reject Second Revision 8222. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 4 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 8222. Is 5 there a second? 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 8 proceed with a discussion on the motion. 9 HOWARD HERNDON: The question we have here - what 10 is a design qualified part? Sometimes that would seem 11 apparent to me. If I was reconditioning a ITE circuit 12 breaker, air circuit breaker, who would I get a design 13 qualified part? We feel like that this section needs to 14 be reworded, and re-brought back to the assembly for 15 reconsideration, because many of the products that we 16 are reconditioning, a design qualified parts are no 17 longer available. If they are available, you're going 18 to have to buy them from the manufacturer who made them. 19 And do you think they're going to sell them to you? 20 Probably not. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 22 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 23 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 24 are no apparent conflicts, or correlation issues. The 25 NEC Correlating Committee reviewed the complete record

522 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 of both the public input, and comments to ensure there 2 was no new material being introduced. The Correlating 3 Committee concluded that there was no new material 4 related to the definition of reconditioned, and the new 5 rules related to it. And that's consistent with all of 6 the code-making panels that had the charge of policing 7 their own material and this issue for new material. So 8 it's not just the Correlating Committee doing this. 9 Each code-making panel that dealt with it had the new 10 material policing effort as one of their charges, and 11 the issue never came up. The public record will show 12 that it started at the beginning, and this is how it 13 ended. 14 I'd like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 9, 15 David Humphrey, who's at microphone three, please. 16 DAVID HUMPHREY: I'm David Humphrey, Chair of 17 Code-Making Panel 9. I represent the International 18 Association of Electrical Inspectors, and I stand in 19 opposition of the motion. 20 It is the determination of Panel 9 that switch 21 gear can be reconditioned. And this work is typically 22 done in place because of the difficulty of removal and 23 reinstallation. Panel 9 has reviewed the current status 24 of listing coverage and conclude that - concludes that 25 field labeling is a viable approach. If the gear has

523 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 been water or products of combustion, a field evaluation 2 by a testing lab is warranted. Thank you. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 4 open up debate on the motion. Please provide your name, 5 affiliation, and whether you are speaking in support, or 6 against the motion. Microphone four, please. 7 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. Chris Hunter with 8 Serra Wire, in support of the motion. Besides being new 9 material, there is a question on the second paragraph on 10 here. This is medium voltage switch gear. The 11 requirements is that it shall be listed or field 12 labelled as reconditioned. Some of this equipment never 13 had to be listed in the first place. How are you going 14 to list it as reconditioned in that case. So it's a - 15 it's a, it's a question that I, I think deserves an 16 answer. Thank you. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 18 please. 19 BARRY RODGERS: I am Barry Rodgers. I represent 20 Schneider Electric. Schneider Electric is against this 21 motion. We support the action taken by the Code Panel 22 to include this language. For design qualified parts, 23 it's necessary to discuss with the manufacturer about 24 the part in question, in order to have a thorough 25 understanding of the part in question. Design qualified

524 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 clearly points to product standards, and manufactured 2 defined qualifications during the design process. The 3 product standards and manufacturer knowledge include 4 qualifications that deeply involve the technology and 5 sciences involved for the product. This includes 6 proprietary and patented parts, and/or processes. 7 The listing mark notes that the product - product 8 meets appropriate standards, and found suitable for its 9 purpose. The removal of the listing mark helps to 10 inform the user, and code enforcement that the equipment 11 has been reconditioned, excuse me - and may not be 12 suitable - and may not meet the requirements of the 13 industry product safety standard. I urge you to vote 14 against this motion. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 16 please. 17 RICHARD GARBUCK (phonetic): Richard Garbuck. I 18 speak for myself. I'd like to call the question. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: There is a motion from the 20 floor to call the question. I notice there are a number 21 of people remaining at the microphone waiting to speak, 22 but we'll proceed with the vote on the call of the 23 question. Do we have a second? 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. Second. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. In order

525 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the bottom 2 of your tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in support 3 of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 4 the motion, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 5 The voting will close in five seconds. 6 The voting is closed. 7 There are 342 votes in favor of calling the 8 question; there are 19 opposed to it. The - we - the 9 vote is in favor of calling the question. Therefore, 10 we'll move straight to the motion. 11 Before we vote, let me restate the motion. The 12 motion on the floor is to Reject Second Revision 8222. 13 The vote - to vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you 14 wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 15 text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote 16 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 17 Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 18 The voting will be closed in five seconds. 19 The voting is closed. 20 The results are 19 in favor of the motion; 387 21 against the motion. The motion has failed. 22 We are going to take a 10 minute break, which is 23 going to be the last break for the evening, because we 24 will come back and finish this. So enjoy this break, 25 and we will see you in 10 minutes.

526 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 (laughter) 2 (break) 3 (MUSIC) 4 (END OF PART FOUR) 5 6 7 AUDIO TRANSCRIPTION OF 8 9 2019 NFPA TECHNICAL MEETING 10 11 THURSDAY, JUNE 20, 2019 12 13 PART 5 14 15 16 (MUSIC) 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: All right. I hate to 18 interrupt Love Shack, so -- 19 (laughter) 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We're - let's proceed with 21 the discussion on Certified Amending Motion 75-34. 22 I've got a whole bunch of people around microphones, 23 so I've got to - if you could raise your hand. So it 24 looks like five? Microphone five, please. 25 GEORGE STRANIERO: George Straniero from AFC

527 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Cable Systems, and I move to Reject Identifiable Part 2 of Second Revision 7979. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 4 on the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 5 Revision No. 7979. Is there a second? 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 10 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 11 GEORGE STRANIERO: George Straniero from AFC 12 Cable Systems, speaking in favor of the motion. 13 Panel 14 accepted interlocked armored MC HL 14 cable for the First Revision for the 2020 NEC. They 15 then rejected it for the Second Revision. The reason 16 given for the rejection do not technically just 17 justify excluding its use as a wiring method for Class 18 1, Division 1 locations. 19 First reason given was, for the rejection, was 20 that the addition of interlocked armored MC cable does 21 not satisfy any current need for Division 1 locations. 22 This is not true. Continuous sheath MC HL is stiff, 23 difficult to install, and reposition. Interlocked 24 armor type MC provides additional flexibility. 25 The next reason given was that the need for

528 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 flexibility can be met by other accepted cable types. 2 The availability of other wiring methods is not a 3 technical reason to allow - disallow other acceptable 4 cables. 5 Another reason given was that MC cable, with 6 the continuous metallic sheet, provides a second vapor 7 barrier. There are no requirements for multiple vapor 8 barriers. Other permitted cable constructions do not 9 have a multiple vapor barrier. The absence of the 10 multiple vapor barrier should not be a reason for 11 exclusion of MC HL with interlocked armor. 12 Finally, the Panel expressed concern that 13 arcing ground faults in interlocked armored cable 14 provides potential ignition source in Division 1 15 areas. Arcing ground faults with interlocked armored 16 are no more a concern than for arcing ground faults 17 with continuous MC. In fact, it's less a concern, 18 considering the - the ability of interlocked armored 19 cable to be flexed without damaging the armor. 20 Deletion in the First Revision that permitted 21 MC HL with interlocked armor unduly restricts the use 22 of a suitable alternative wiring method. There is no 23 valid reason that MC HL with interlocked armor should 24 be excluded. I ask that you vote to accept the motion 25 to Reject Second Revision 7979. Thank you.

529 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 2 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please? 3 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 4 were no correlation issues, or conflicts identified by 5 the NEC Correlating Committee, and I'd like to defer 6 to the Chair of Code-Making Panel 14, Mike Smith, at 7 microphone number two, please. 8 MIKE SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am 9 Michael Smith. I am from St. Louis, Missouri in 10 representation of NECA, and also home of the 2019 11 Stanley Cub Champion, St. Louis Blues. Thank you very 12 much. 13 (applause) 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: With that, are you for, or 15 against the motion? 16 MIKE SMITH: I am for - or against the motion. 17 I'm sorry. 18 (laughter) 19 MIKE SMITH: Got all excited there. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Right. 21 MIKE SMITH: It's been a long day. Panel 14 22 did review, and during the First Draft meeting, create 23 an FR 7609, based on the submission of PI 3314 and 24 3318. The Panel saw at that time, no problem with the 25 addition of this cable type being used in a Class 1

530 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 location. Yet, the Panel also noted that if this - 2 that this cable type was not currently manufactured. 3 And if it was going to be manufactured, it needed to 4 have the same crush rating impact - impact 5 requirements to ensure robust construction that would 6 compare to other cables used in this location. 7 We then received, after - during the comments 8 stage, two comments for this FR, to review in the 9 Second Draft meeting. PC 888 came to us from the 10 Correlating Committee, basically instructing us to 11 review the actions that we took on FR 76 - 7609, for 12 clarity and usability, with respects to the Item 1 and 13 2, those possible confusions between the two types of 14 cables. 15 After further review, Panel 14 then reversed 16 its original action allowing the MC HL cable with 17 interlocking metallic sheath, to be omitted as Item 18 No. 2, since the cable was not in existence at the 19 time. 20 Additional, Code Panel 14 noted that their 21 concern was with the arcing could occur under ground 22 fault conditions in the interlock armor, which could 23 provide ignition sources in a Class 1, Div 1 location. 24 And finally, just to make a note that this 25 paren (3) is for only industrial establishments, with

531 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 restrictions to public access, and where conditions of 2 maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified 3 persons service the installation. 4 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 6 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 7 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 8 support, or against the motion. Microphone four, 9 please. 10 JOHN KOVACHIC: Thank you, Mr. Chair. John 11 Kovachic, UL LLC, speaking on behalf of the Electrical 12 Section of NFPA as their official representative, and 13 speaking for the motion. 14 The Electrical Section had its business meeting 15 on Tuesday of this week, and the Section voted to 16 support the motion on the floor. Ladies and gentlemen 17 of this body, I ask for your vote in support of this 18 motion. Thank you. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five, 20 please. 21 GEORGE STRANIERO: George Straniero, AFC Cable, 22 speaking in favor of the motion. 23 In response to the Panel 14 Chair's comments, 24 he indicated that there were no performance 25 requirements for impact and crush. The performance

532 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 requirements for HL constructions, for MC HL, which 2 exists today, and for Type TC HL, which exists today, 3 are contained in UL Standard 2225. So the 4 requirements are already in existence, the cable does 5 exist. Just waiting for the, for the - Article 501 to 6 recognize it. 7 Second comment made was relative to clarity in 8 the, in the, in the types of construction. I can - I 9 can't see it from back here. Hopefully you could see 10 it better; but clearly, it says interlocked armor 11 within the language of the, the proposed code text. 12 And as far as the, the comments made about 13 arcing, I, I think I addressed that earlier. You 14 already have the continuous sheath MC cable. My - an 15 interlocked armored cable is able to flex much more 16 easily, and without damage than, than a continuous 17 sheet. So it's no more a issue for, for arc fault 18 grounding, as, as the existing product that's allowed. 19 Thank you. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. Thank you. 21 Microphone six, please. 22 BILL FISKE: Thank you, Chairman. I am Bill 23 Fiske from Intertek, and I am speaking against this 24 motion. 25 Listed MC HL cable with an interlocked metallic

533 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 sheath does not exist. It is not covered by Standard 2 UL 2225. I'm a member of the STP that's responsible 3 for that. And I'm not speaking for Panel 14, but I am 4 a member of it. And in addition, I checked with the 5 primary designated engineer for STP 2225, who is also 6 a member of Panel 14, and he confirmed that it isn't 7 in the scope of the standard, and there are no current 8 proposals to put it into the standard. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Microphone five, please. 10 GEORGE STRANIERO: In rebuttal, the standard 11 cover and MC cable, both continuous and interlocked, 12 is UL 1569, and the standard exists. The cables 13 exist. The performance requirements are in 2225, 14 which covers the dash -HL suffix. Now we're up to the 15 chicken and egg - I like to call it the, the code 16 sneezes -- 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I -- 18 GEORGE STRANIERO: -- UL goes, gesundheit. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Could -- 20 GEORGE STRANIERO: The code (unintelligible) 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Could you I'm going to 22 interrupt you just for -- 23 GEORGE STRANIERO: I'm sorry -- 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: -- one second. 25 GEORGE STRANIERO: I'm speaking in favor of the

534 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 motion. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: You didn't state your name, 3 the company -- 4 GEORGE STRANIERO: George - I'm sorry. George 5 Straniero, AFC Cable, speaking in favor of the motion. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 7 GEORGE STRANIERO: I apologize. As I was 8 starting to say, I like to call it the, the code 9 sneezes and UL goes gesundheit, or the standard goes 10 gesundheit. 11 It's not in 2225 because it's not in the 12 National Electrical Code, which is why we're here 13 discussing it at this point. So the fact that it's 14 not in UL 2225 at this point is not a reason to reject 15 it. Should it make it into Article 501.10, that would 16 then instigate the, the revision to UL 2225. Thank 17 you. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. Thank you. 19 Microphone two. 20 (laughter) 21 SCOTT CLINE: Scott Cline, representing NECA; 22 speaking for myself here. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you -- 24 SCOTT CLINE: I - I'm -- 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: -- speaking for or against

535 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the motion? 2 SCOTT CLINE: I am speaking against the motion, 3 because I look at the long added paragraph there, long 4 sentence, which has no requirement. I don't think 5 it's a complete English sentence. I'm not sure what 6 its point is, in the way it's worded. I think it's 7 written in error. I would suggest voting against this 8 motion. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 10 further discussion on Motion 70-34 to Reject an 11 Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 7979? Mr. 12 Johnston, do you have any final comments? 13 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 14 Thank you. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Before we vote, let me 16 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 17 Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 18 7979. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish 19 to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 20 text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote 21 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 22 Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 23 The voting will close in five seconds. 24 The voting is closed. 25 The vote is: 199 in favor of the motion; 183

536 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 against the motion. The motion has passed. 2 The next motion, NFPA 70-35, appeared on - on 3 our Agenda. However, the authorized maker of the 4 motion has notified NFPA that he no longer wishes to 5 pursue the motion. Therefore, in accordance with the 6 NFPA Rules, Convention Rules at Section 2.7, the 7 motion may not be considered by the assembly, and is 8 removed from the Agenda. We'll now move on to the 9 next motion. 10 Now, let's proceed with the discussion on 11 Certified Amending Motions 70-36. Microphone one. 12 Thank you, sorry. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 14 KEITH WATERS: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name 15 is Keith Waters. I'm with Schneider Electric. I'm 16 representing myself here. I make a Motion to Reject 17 an Identifiable Part of the Second Correlating 18 Revision No. 30. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 20 on the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 21 Correlating Revision No. 30. Is there a second? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 24 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 25 KEITH WATERS: So - so the, the - the motion

537 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 itself is pretty straightforward, calling for a 2 deletion on the second part of the requirements that 3 are being removed from the, the code. The original, 4 the original code in 2017 requires GFCI protection for 5 all of the receptacles in an RV pedestal, whether it's 6 a 15 and 20 amp duplex, or the 30 amp, or 50 amp for 7 the RV itself. 8 So the - this motion is to keep that GFCI 9 protection for that outdoor receptacle, both for the 10 30 and 50, which is what's being deleted with this 11 SCR. 12 So what I ask it for the - from the, the 13 audience is a positive vote on my motion, in order to 14 keep GFCI protection on a, on an outdoor receptacle, 15 in case somebody's in the - trying to plug in the 16 rain, standing in water, have a cord laid out across 17 the ground that could be damaged. And it's basically 18 all about keeping that GFCI protection from 19 electrocution in that outdoor environment. Thank you. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 21 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 23 Second Correlating Revision 30 was intended to align 24 this section with the NEC Style Manual, relative to 25 required driving text in this section, numbering, and

538 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 other alignment; and also with Section 90.3. 2 For the technical response, I'd like to defer 3 to the Chair of Code Panel 7, Keith Lofland, at 4 microphone three, please. 5 KEITH LOFLAND: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Keith 6 Lofland, International Association of Electrical 7 Inspectors. And I stand opposed to this motion. 8 Without the text that is being proposed to be 9 struck, this would call for GFCI protection for the 10 supply cord to the RV itself, which by definition of 11 the supply cord at 551.2, and the definition of a 12 feeder is a feeder - it's not a branch circuit. 13 You're - you have your individual branch circuit GFCI 14 protection in the RV itself. This, this language that 15 you see before you was voted upon by Code Making Panel 16 7, with a unanimous vote of 12-0. And so I, I ask you 17 to not support this motion at this time. Thank you 18 very much. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone - oh- 20 with that, we'll open up the debate on the motion. 21 Please provide your name, affiliation, and whether 22 you're speaking in support, or against the motion. 23 Microphone two, please. 24 WADE ELLIOTT: My name is Wade Elliott. I'm 25 the President of Utilities Supply Group. I'm a

539 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 supplier of electrical equipment to the RV industry, 2 and I represent the National Association of RV Parks 3 and Campgrounds, to Code-Making Panel 7; I'm here 4 representing the National Association. I'm here to 5 speak against Certifying Amendment 7036, and to 6 maintain correlating Revision 30. 7 Before I get too far into it, I, I want to 8 mention that the, the supplier that - of the Certified 9 Amending Motion mentioned that, that Current Code 17 10 requires a 30 and 50 amp GFI. It does not require a 11 30 amp - 50 amp GFI. 12 To reiterate what the Chairman said, numerous 13 inputs were made to Panel 7 addressing insulation of 14 GFCI protection on RV side equipment to enhance safety 15 in RV parks, because no recorded, or presented issues 16 regarding electrocutions at, or harm related to RV 17 park site equipment, nor any evidence of improved 18 safety would be provided by a vote in the first draft 19 of 12 to 2. This - the language was approved to not 20 have GFI protection on, on the 30 and 50 amp. 21 During the public comment period, one of the 22 submitters submit - that submitted the Certified 23 Amending Motion and, and a public comment sought to 24 reinstitute the 30 and 50 amp protection requirement. 25 In his comment, the Submitter quoted an industry

540 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 safety expert, Mike Sokol (phonetic), as justification 2 for the proposed revision. In fact, Mike Sokol 3 denounces the submitter's position as exactly opposite 4 of his thoughts - Mike is a friend of mine - for 30 5 and 50 amp on RV parts and, and side equipment GFCI. 6 It would actually reduce safety, as users would devise 7 methods, such as removing the ground pin from the 8 plug, to circumvent the GFCI protection, which would 9 lead to the actual hot skin condition that Mr. Sokol 10 warns against. 11 Second Revision, and the correlating inputs, as 12 the Chairman mentioned - we came to the conclusion 13 that 551.2 definition of power supply assembly, and, 14 and NFPA 100, definition of a feeder, the 30 and 50 15 amp are feeder circuits, and the 20 amp is a branch 16 circuit. And in our, in our proposal, or in our 17 Second Revision, we have the 20 amp GFI protection, UL 18 Standard 231, which I am a member of the Standard 19 Technical Panel, does not require GFCI protection on 20 only but the, the 15 and 20 amp in Table 8.1. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five, 22 please. 23 RANDY DOLLAR: Randy Dollar with Siemens, but 24 I'm speaking on behalf of American Circuit Breaker 25 Manufacturers Association. We support this motion,

541 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 and we ask you to. We believe it would improve 2 safety, and you will not be able to avoid the GFCI 3 protection simply by removing the ground pin. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. Thank you. 5 Microphone five again. 6 JACK LYONS: Thank you. I'm speaking for the 7 motion, and I'm -- 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: And who are you, please? 9 JACK LYONS: -- Jack Lyons, represent NEMA 10 Codes and Standards, state their support for the 11 motion to Reject an Identifiable Part (unintelligible) 12 Revision No. 3 related to GFCI protection in Article 13 551. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 15 please. 16 DOUG MULVANY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Doug 17 Mulvany, Kampgrounds of America, speaking against. 18 Appreciate the time. Thank you. 19 I would just reiterate the points that Mr. 20 Elliot made, as well as our Chair, that after very 21 thorough discussions that dove deep into the 22 definition of the branch circuit versus the feeders, 23 the entire group, the entire Committee, voted 24 unanimously to remove this requirement for the GFCI on 25 the 50 and 30.

542 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 In addition to that, if you do remove 2 Informational Note 2, it will cause confusion, and 3 reduce the clarity of the code as it applies to the 4 current design standards that are laid out in 551. 5 Thank you. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 7 please. 8 PHIL SIMMONS: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 9 My name's Phil Simmons, speaking for myself, and 10 speaking against the motion. 11 I have to admit that I learned something 12 tonight. The Informational Note No. 2 says that the 13 supply to the RV is indeed a feeder. And I would have 14 argued before that it's a branch circuit. So it meets 15 the definition of a feeder in Article 100, it's 16 misplaced to try to force the requirements of 210.8(B) 17 on the feeder to an RV. 18 In addition, RVs are supplied with all the 19 GFCIs that are needed - like in bathrooms, and 20 kitchens, and outdoor. So all the protection is there 21 that's needed, in the RV itself. So it seems like the 22 Code Panel has really implemented Section 90.3 23 correctly. Thank you. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone one. 25 KEITH WATERS: Yes. My name's Keith Waters.

543 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I'm with Schneider Electric. I'm speaking for myself, 2 and I'm speaking for the motion. 3 So the first thing to note is in the 4 Correlating Committee comment, they reference 210.8(B) 5 directly. So the Correlating Committee recognizes 6 that it is a branch circuit, directly with their 7 statement in their Second Revision. 8 So - and also in reference to - this is about 9 safety. So we, we're not talking about issues within 10 the RV itself. We're talking about the cord that - 11 that's external to the RV, that could be damaged on 12 the ground; because someone could be holding it and 13 trying to plug during the rain - during rain, or, or 14 you have standing water. So it's a public safety 15 issue on terms of electrocution. And that's why I 16 would ask you to support the motion, to keep that 17 protection, because it is - it's in within the 2017, 18 because up through 50 amps in 201.8(B), do - does 19 exist in 2017. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone one, 21 again. 22 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, speaking for myself. 23 Call the question, please. 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yay. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: There's a motion from the

544 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 floor to call the question. I notice that there are a 2 few people still remaining at the microphone waiting 3 to speak, but we'll proceed with the vote on the call 4 of the question. Do we have a second? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. And in 7 order to vote on the motion, please scroll down to the 8 bottom of the table to vote. If you wish to vote in 9 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 10 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 11 your vote. 12 The voting will close in five seconds. 13 The voting is closed. 14 There are 364 in favor of calling the question; 15 and 19 against the motion to call the question. So 16 with - the vote is in favor of calling the question. 17 Before we move - we're moving to the main 18 motion. Before we vote, let me restate the motion. 19 The motion on the floor is to Reject an Identifiable 20 Part of Second Correlating Revision No. 30. To vote, 21 touch the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in 22 support of the motion, and recommend the text on 23 Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 24 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen Two, 25 touch 'No'. Please record your vote.

545 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The voting will close in five seconds. 2 The voting is closed. 3 There are 274 in favor of the motion; 154 4 against the motion. The motion passes. 5 As we announced earlier, we have reordered the 6 next motion, so that it will be discussed in paragraph 7 section order. Discussions on Motion 70-2 will be 8 heard next. And I'll give you a second to catch up on 9 70-2. 10 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 11 Certified Amending Motion 70-2. And who's going to be 12 my maker of the motion? Microphone four, please. 13 DANIEL MIKAT: Thank you. My name is Daniel 14 Mikat. I represent Toyota Motor North America, and 23 15 other OEMs, including the Automotive Alliance, and 16 Global Automakers, and Society of Automotive 17 Engineers. 18 I move to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 19 Revision No. 7776, Including - and Related Portions of 20 First Revision No. 8385. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 22 on the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 23 Revision No. 7776, Including the Related Portions of 24 First Revision No. 8385. Is there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I second.

546 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 3 DANIEL MIKAT: Thank you. I am Daniel Mikat. 4 I represent Toyota Motor North America, and 23 other 5 automotive manufacturers, the Automotive Alliance, 6 Global Auto Makers, and SAE. 7 The auto - and I'm speaking in favor of this 8 motion. The automotive community recognizes that the 9 intention of this NEC code is to protect building, 10 premises, and infrastructure, electrical grid from 11 reverse energy flow from an electric vehicle to a home 12 wiring system. 13 The Scope Statement in previous section, 14 Section 90.1, excludes automotive vehicles, and 15 rightly so. This allows federal agencies, namely 16 NHTSA, with purview over automotive applications to do 17 their job, unfettered by conflicting rules from other 18 organizations. 19 NHTSA is recognized by automotive manufacturers 20 as the sole authority for creating automotive 21 regulations and requirements. They have the 22 resources, the procedures, and Congressional authority 23 to enact regulations, investigate incidents, and 24 produce and enforce regulations - and above all, to 25 broadly address any safety defects. Among those are

547 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the recall process, and creating new FMVSS 2 regulations. 3 Conflicting rules from various organizations, 4 including the NFPA, would create confusion within the 5 automotive community, and ultimately would require 6 expensive and unnecessary procedures to comply. Now, 7 note that there are no known safety defects regarding 8 on board power outlets. L 9 Subsequent Section 625.60 includes specific 10 requirements for on board vehicle power outlets, such 11 as the 120 volt power outlet - which cannot connect to 12 a building infrastructure, and so should be excluded. 13 The language proposed allows management of 14 safety of electric vehicle supply equipment, which 15 supplies sufficient and necessary conditions, without 16 interfering with NHTSA's authority. 17 Discussions between the Automotive Alliance and 18 NHTSA have already begun with regard to this code 19 language, and NHTSA has agreed to produce an 20 interpretation letter; and we believe that NHTSA 21 preemption is likely, with regard to this code 22 language. 23 Based on these facts and conditions, the motion 24 is offered to maintain the scope of NEC, without 25 creating a conflicting requirement from that which

548 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 NHTSA has developed under FMVSS 305 GTR 13. And 2 hence, I am - I urge this constituency to accept the 3 language change proposed, and apply the scope to 4 include electrical vehicle - electric equipment 5 external to a vehicle. Thank you. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 7 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please? 8 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Under 9 its responsibilities to review revisions to scopes, 10 the NEC Correlating Committee reviewed, and did not 11 identify any correlation or conflicts with regard to 12 the revisions made. 13 For the rest of it, I'd like to defer to the 14 Chair of Code Panel 12, Scott Cline, and I think he's 15 at microphone two, please. 16 SCOTT CLINE: I'm Scott Cline, representing 17 NECA. I am the Chair of NEC Code-Making Panel 12, 18 which is responsible for Article 625; and I speak 19 against this motion. 20 I hope you remember from what is now so very 21 long ago, my statements about the necessity of having 22 rules in the NEC to cover the hazards arising from the 23 decision by vehicle manufacturers, to turn a vehicle 24 into a non-transportation power supply system. 25 We need more than just the manufacturing

549 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 evaluating systems safety. Panel 12 gave all these 2 many issues very serious consideration. We started 3 discussions of the 625.1 and 625-60 issues by spending 4 an hour on two presentations, each followed by a Q and 5 A session, presenting the concerns of the automotive 6 industry. The Panel then spent six hours discussing 7 and acting on the issues specific to this general 8 topic. An hour of this time was spent on this 9 specific Second Revision. 10 Again, the Panel does not want to govern the 11 manufacturing of vehicles for transportation. But we 12 do insist that electrical power for our users to be 13 provided safely, to the same standards as elsewhere in 14 the NEC. If vehicle manufacturers choose to offer 15 options which turn the vehicle into a non- 16 transportation power supply system, the options need 17 to comply with the NEC. The scope is not a one time 18 declaration of coverage which may never be changed. 19 When available technology comes into being which 20 presents electrical hazards, then the NFPA has the 21 responsibility to consider if regulations for public 22 safety are needed. 23 All 18 Panel votes for Second Revision 7776 24 were affirmative. Please vote no on this motion. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll

550 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 2 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 3 support, or against the motion. I'm going to go in 4 order that you are standing. Microphone two, please. 5 JOHN KOVACHIC: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. John 6 Kovachic, UL LLC, speaking on behalf of UL, and 7 speaking against the motion. 8 I spoke earlier today on this issue as it 9 related to the scope of the code, and my remarks would 10 remain the same, so I won't repeat all of them. But 11 I'll summarize in two quick statements. The issue 12 resides in the electric vehicle acting, and serving as 13 a branch circuit, but without being held to the same 14 NEC rules as other branch circuits. 15 Ignoring the consequences of connecting a 16 product to an electric vehicle, and using the vehicle 17 as a source of supply would be a mistake. I urge this 18 body to reject the motion on the floor. Thank you. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. I'm going to go 20 with microphone five. 21 JIM TARCHINSKI: Good evening. My name's Jim 22 Tarchinski, and I'm representing SAE International, 23 speaking for the motion the floor. 24 SAE International, formerly known as the 25 Society of Automotive Engineers, is a lot like NFPA.

551 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 They are primarily focused on safety. They have 2 decades of experience, and they are globalized - 3 globally recognized leaders in their field. But the 4 fields are very different. SAE International is very 5 focused on the automotive environment, including the 6 different use cases that exist, including crash 7 worthiness issues. 8 SAE International has the J-1766 document that 9 does cover high voltage safety in the automotive 10 space. It deals with impacts. The federal government 11 has incorporated the basics of J-1766 into FMVSS 305 12 regulations, which all vehicle manufacturers must 13 meet, to sell in the United States. 14 NFPA putting requirements in the automotive 15 space will lead to confusion at best, but more likely, 16 ultimately to conflicts between the documents. 17 Last, different states are allowed to adopt 18 different versions of the code, and it does - code does 19 change over times. It is not clear if people will need 20 to comply with a version of the NEC in effect in the 21 state where they live, or in the state where the 22 purchased the vehicle. There is no enforcement activity 23 available to AHJs. As we as explained by Mr. Mikat, the 24 NHTSA organization does have processes and procedures in 25 place to deal with all these.

552 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Instead of duplicating efforts between NFPA and 2 the government, I strongly recommend you vote for this 3 motion. And basically, if you have any issues and think 4 additional safety requirements are needed, we should 5 bring that to NHTSA, since they are responsible for 6 vehicle safety in the United States. Thank you. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 8 please. 9 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 10 International, speaking for NAFRA, and against the 11 motion. 12 I want to remind some of you who probably don't 13 quite remember that 400 hours ago, we rejected -- 14 (laughter) 15 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: -- NFPA 71. The makers of 16 this motion moved 72 far away so that you probably don't 17 remember that it is exactly the same issue. It is - we 18 have rejected in 90A what is covered, so 90.2-A, what 19 the code covers. The code covers installations where 20 the electric power is exported from the vehicle to the 21 house - has nothing to do with how the vehicle moves, 22 which is what NHTSA covers. NHTSA covers the movement 23 of the vehicle, the vehicle as a transportation 24 equipment. That's not what this is. This is the 25 vehicle as a source of electrical power to the house.

553 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Please reject the motion. Thank you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 3 please. 4 DAN MIKAT: Hello. This is Dan Mikat again. I - 5 from Toyota Motor North America, and I'm speaking in 6 favor of the motion. 7 The past few comments were in opposition, and 8 they referenced the EV as a power supply should be 9 governed by NEC, and I agree with this. If you read 10 this text statement under the Scope Statement, this 11 proposed language, you'll see that the connection as an 12 EV as a power source is still included, per their 13 revised Scope Statement. The only thing that we're 14 trying to exclude here is on board power supplies. 15 And also the, the point about the amount of time 16 that the Committees spend discussing this matter is 17 irrelevant. 18 Now, regarding the question about the difference 19 between this proposal and 70.1 - this is different from 20 70.1. 70.1 requested to eliminate this from the scope 21 altogether. But this statement allows the connection or 22 the, the purview of the EV as a power supply to be 23 governed by the NEC, as long as this is for equipment 24 external to the electric vehicle. Thank you. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone one,

554 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 please. 2 EDDY GEDRY: Eddy Gedry, representing myself. 3 Call the question. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: There's a motion from the 5 floor to call the question. I notice that there are a 6 number of people remaining at the microphones waiting to 7 speak, but we'll proceed with the vote on call of the 8 question. Do we have a second? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. In order 11 to vote on the motion, please scroll down to the bottom 12 of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in support 13 of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against 14 the motion, touch 'No'. Please record your vote on 15 calling the question. 16 The vote will close in five seconds. 17 The voting is closed. 18 The results are: 373 in favor of calling the 19 question; 13 against calling the question. So it is 20 passed, the motion to call the question. 21 Moving to the main motion. Before we vote, let 22 me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 23 Reject an Identifiable Part of the Second Revision No. 24 7776, Including Related Portions of the First Revision 25 No. 8385. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you

555 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend 2 the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 3 vote against the motion, and recommend the text on 4 Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 5 The voting will close in five seconds. 6 The voting is closed. 7 The results are: 32 in favor of the motion; 8 372 against the motion. The motion has failed. 9 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 10 Certified Amending Motion 70-37. Microphone - runner. 11 Microphone - I was just waiting to see where you 12 stopped - four. 13 SCOTT SCHMIDT: Thank you, Sir. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: No worries. Catch your 15 breath. 16 SCOTT SCHMIDT: I'm Scott Schmidt with the 17 Alliance of Automobile Manufacturing, speaking for 18 Nancy Stone, 23 OEMs, their trade associations, and 19 SAE. I make the Motion to Reject SR No. 7783, 20 Including Part of FR No. 8597. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a 22 motion on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 23 7783, Including Any Related Portions of First Revision 24 No. 8597. Is there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

556 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Before we begin discussion 2 on this motion, I wanted to point out that there are - 3 some of the text on the Second Revision 7783, was not 4 included in the Agenda. The text which appears on the 5 screens behind me reflects the additional text. 6 Please proceed with the motion. 7 SCOTT SCHMIDT: Yes. Scott Schmidt with the 8 Auto Alliance. I support the motion. 9 The proposed definition of EVP seeks to 10 regulate on board equipment that provide power to 11 external loads using the vehicle as a source of 12 supply. These requirements do not appropriately 13 contemplate that automotive electrical architecture 14 significantly differs from other installations. 15 The definition of EVP conflicts with existing 16 safety oversight, namely federal preemptive authority 17 and the National Highway Traffic Safety 18 Administrations. 19 As indicated before, we have been in 20 discussions with the agency and are very interested in 21 examining where these conflicts would cause them to 22 consider preemption. 23 NHTSA has continuously evolved FMVSS 305 to 24 address safety needs as they emerged. Therefore, 25 NHTSA's enforcement authority replies regardless of

557 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the presence of even an FMVSS. And as was said, if 2 there should be an issue in the field, NHTSA has the 3 authority to force the manufacturer to recall and 4 remedy its products. 5 There's use - various usage conditions and 6 receptacles are not appropriately addressed, either. 7 The proposed definition of EVPE lacks clarity on the 8 significantly wide variety uses and equipment it may 9 be intended to address. The proposed definition is 10 also overly broad, and may be interpreted to include 11 the inverter, regardless of on board or off board; the 12 EVSC that works for reversed power from the vehicle; 13 AC outlets regardless of on board or off board; EV 14 charging receptacles when used as an outlet, again, 15 regardless of AC or DC; wires or cables for the 16 devices above. 17 There is also inconsistency with the other NEC 18 sections. Section 625.60 and 625.2 both clearly 19 specify requirements for on board outlets installed in 20 electric vehicles. However, 625.1 and 90.2 can be 21 interpreted otherwise. 22 The Code-Making Committee attempted to address 23 these inconsistencies, but with the definition, such 24 interfaces remains unclear. 25 In summary, the petitioners of this motion

558 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 firmly believe that the proposal to add the definition 2 of EVPE would create a significant conflict with the 3 (unintelligible) authority, will not address 4 automotive usage conditions, and is not consistent 5 with the scope of other NEC sections. The proposal 6 will not provide any safety benefit, and we strongly 7 urge the NFPA to remove the definition of EVPE from 8 the 2020 NEC Second Draft Revisions. Thank you. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 10 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please. 11 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 12 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 13 the NEC Correlating Committee. However, I would like 14 to defer the technical response to the Chair of Code 15 Panel 12, Scott Cline, and I believe he's at 16 microphone two, please. 17 SCOTT CLINE: I am Scott Cline, representing 18 NECA. I am Chair of NEC Code-Making Panel 12, which 19 is responsible for Article 625, and I speak against 20 this motion. 21 You have again just heard my opinion about the 22 necessity of having rules in the NEC to cover hazards 23 arising from the decision of vehicle manufacturers to 24 provide electrical power supply having nothing to do 25 with transportation. I still insist that the

559 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 electricity provided does not know where it comes 2 from, nor does it care what it goes through. It can 3 be an, an adult or a child's body; it will still be a 4 killer. 5 Neither the National Electric Code Article 90 6 scope, nor the scope of Article 625 is a one time 7 declaration of coverage which may never be changed. 8 When available technology comes into being which 9 presents these hazards, then we have the 10 responsibility to consider them, and make rules where 11 required. 12 The vehicle manufacturers are sometimes 13 choosing to offer these options, turning the vehicle 14 into a non-transportation power supply system. When 15 they do this, they need to accept NEC standards, which 16 will integrate systems safely with loads that can be 17 connected to the vehicle now by simply plugging in a 18 cord, having nothing to do, necessarily, with 19 bidirectional vehicle charging equipment. 20 The Panel voting on Second Revision 7783 was 17 21 to 1. Please continue to provide protection to the 22 public, and vote no on this motion. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 24 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 25 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in

560 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 support, or against the motion. Microphone number 2 four, please. 3 SCOTT SCHMIDT: Yes. This I Scott Schmidt, the 4 Alliance, just providing some supplemental. I would 5 like to make note that we have examined, and talked to 6 NHTSA. There is absolutely no injuries that have been 7 documented due to these outlets. For - and in 8 addition, these outlets are not new. They've been on 9 the market for quite a while, as part of ICE, internal 10 combustion engine vehicle. 11 So the safety record of the industry is 12 sterling. We have no issues that need to be resolved 13 immediately. 14 Now, because of that, when we went to the 15 Panel, we were saying, 'Okay. You have this issue. 16 Let's work on maybe a joint SAE/NFPA work group that 17 can find a way of putting some standard language 18 together that is compatible with how our systems are 19 designed, especially when they are designed to provide 20 fault tolerance to FMVSS 305, and therefore, will not 21 conflict.' 22 So the whole idea of this was to say, 'We don't 23 have a safety problem that needs to be handled in this 24 code cycle. But we're not going to ignore it. We are 25 going to find a way of making something that gives you

561 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the safety assurance you want, and be flexible for 2 industry.' And that's what we want, and that's what 3 we've been trying to do. Unfortunately, that did not 4 move forward, but I would like to see that happen. 5 And if this does carry, we will still be willing to 6 work on such a joint issue. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 8 please. 9 KEN BOYCE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ken Boyce, 10 UL LLC, and the Chairman of Co-Panel 1, speaking in 11 opposition to the motion. 12 You already heard me speak earlier, relative to 13 70-1, on, on - Panel 1's views on this, as it pertains 14 to the scope in Article 90. 15 I just wanted a few new comments. People have 16 heard the term NHTSA, and I just want to make sure 17 everyone understands. NHTSA is an acronym for the 18 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. And 19 they say that they're responsible for keeping people 20 safe on America's roadways - a very important role. 21 But they also go on to say their mission is to save 22 lives, prevent injuries, and reduce economic costs due 23 to road traffic crashes, through education, research, 24 safety, safety standards, and enforcement activity. 25 So that's a very different purview than what we're

562 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 talking about here. 2 As Chairman Cline has pointed out in his 3 comments about CMP 12's view, of the nature of this 4 mode of operation of an electrical source, and the 5 NEC's clear purview over it, that we've already 6 established, that means we need requirements in the 7 NEC. Code Panel 12 has given us those requirements 8 through diligent deliberation. 9 I ask that you oppose this motion, and support 10 electrical safety. 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five. 12 JIM TARCHINSKI: Good evening. Jim Tarchinski, 13 representing SAE International, speaking for the 14 motion on the table. I would like to talk about two 15 of the previous comments that were made. 16 First, Mr. Cline mentioned safety. NHTSA - the 17 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration - uses 18 a method of protection called isolation resistance. 19 And the goal of that method is to make certain 20 touching high voltage, there are no hazards. But it's 21 different than the method in the NEC. And therefore, 22 the two are not compatible, and that's why it's very 23 important what was mentioned about the need for NFPA 24 and SAE International to work together. 25 The second comment was made relative to

563 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 National Highway Traffic Safety Administration only 2 covering vehicles when they're on the roadways. 3 That's not quite correct. NHTSA has stated that they 4 are responsible for vehicle safety in normal usage 5 conditions; and for an electric vehicle, that would 6 include charging. So NHTSA has vehicles' coverage 7 stationary, as well as in motion. Thank you. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone 9 three. 10 JOEL GORGON (phonetic): Mr. Chairman, I'm Joel 11 Gorgon with Cisco Systems, and I am speaking against 12 the motion. I'm a CMP 12 principal member. I do not 13 speak for CMP 12. Scott Cline has already done that. 14 I'd like to make a couple clarifications on 15 what we've been talking about here. Specifically, if 16 I look at the scope defined in 625.1, and I quote, 'It 17 covers the electrical conductors and equipment 18 connecting an electric vehicle to premise wiring.' 19 Now, I understand that a car is supposed to be on the 20 road. But when it's not on the road, and it's pulled 21 in the garage, and it's plugged into the garage and 22 it's charging, or delivering power into the home, it 23 now has, since it's delivering power into the home or 24 residence, it is now specifically powering that, and 25 has become part of the home power source system.

564 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Further, with electric outlets that are inside 2 the vehicle, if I choose to clean my car while it's in 3 the garage, I can take my wet/dry shop vac and plug it 4 into said electrical outlet. 5 Now, there has to be some type of protection, 6 because now the car is no longer on the road. I'm not 7 driving 90 miles an hour down the road - I like to 8 drive fast, by the way - so I'm no longer driving 9 that. I'm actually parked in the garage, driving the 10 home. 11 This is, this is part of the National 12 Electrical Code. This text needs to be here. And 13 again, I speak against this motion, and I urge you all 14 to vote against this. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you very much. 16 Microphone one. 17 EDDY GEDRIE: Me again, Eddy Gedrie, speaking 18 for myself. Call the question. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: There's a motion on the 20 floor to call the question. I notice there are a 21 number of people remaining at the microphones waiting 22 to speak, but we'll proceed with the motion on call 23 the question. Do we have a second? 24 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. In

565 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 order to vote on this motion, please scroll down to 2 the bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote 3 in support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 4 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 5 your vote. 6 Five seconds, the voting will be closed. 7 The voting is closed. 8 The results are: 355 in favor of calling the 9 questions; 11 against calling the question. So the 10 vote is in favor of calling the question. 11 This will move us to the - restate the motion. 12 The motion on the floor is to Reject the Second 13 Revision 7783, Including Any Related Portions of the 14 First Revision No. 8597. To vote, touch the 'vote' 15 button. If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 16 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 17 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 18 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 19 vote. 20 The voting will close in five seconds. 21 The voting is closed. 22 The results are: 15 in favor of the motion; 23 and 382 against the motion. The motion has failed. 24 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 25 Certified Amending Motion 70-38. Microphone four,

566 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 please. 2 DOUG BURKETT: Hello. My name is Doug Burkett, 3 Ford Motor Company, and I'm here today representing 23 4 OEM companies, as well as the organizations of 5 Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, Global 6 Automakers, and SAE International. 7 We request that the NFPA Accept Public Comment 8 1590, and only require the listing of any equipment 9 external -- 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Sir, Sir -- 11 DOUG BURKETT: -- to the vehicle. 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Let's, let's, let's stop on 13 - you've requested the Motion to Accept Public Comment 14 No. 1590. Correct? 15 DOUG BURKETT: Yes. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: So there's a motion on the 17 floor to Accept Public Comment No. 1590. Is there a 18 second? 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Did I get that second? All 21 right. Got a second. We do have a second. Please 22 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 23 DOUG BURKETT: Thank you. Again, my name is 24 Doug Burkett with Ford Motor Company, and I'm speaking 25 for the motion.

567 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The Public Comment 1590 has not been adequately 2 considered. The current changes to the code creates 3 ambiguity. An attempt to clarify the code has instead 4 caused additional confusion. 5 It's our position that the requirement for 6 listing of any on vehicle components is improperly 7 directed. The requirement for listing any on vehicle 8 components creates at least six significant, 9 unresolved issues. 10 One, current automotive industry requirements 11 for on vehicle components have more stringent 12 specifications than similar current, off the shelf, 13 premises wiring type of components. Two, the NRTL 14 listing process is not consistent with NHTSA's legally 15 established self-certification process. Three, 16 listing of on vehicle components it not pragmatic, due 17 to the complexities of fully testing component 18 requirements outside of an actual vehicle. Four, a 19 listing requirement will delay service part 20 availability. Five, states typically adopt a code as 21 a legislative action. Individual state adoption of 22 different versions could raise issues of unique state 23 by state requirements for motor vehicles. Six, 24 assuming that listed components were required on 25 vehicles, there could be potential safety hazard for

568 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 AHJ inspectors performing on site inspections. 2 It must also be highlighted that as written, 3 the Second Draft version of 625.5 gives a blanket 4 listing requirement for any equipment that might be 5 added to this article of the code in the future. 6 Therefore, the items discussed above should also be 7 evaluated in terms of the negative impact they might 8 impart on the development of future technology in this 9 area. 10 It's appreciated that NFPA's goal is to 11 proactively update the code with well defined and 12 consistent standards. However, an on vehicle 13 requirement should be consistent with existing roles 14 within industry standard developments. There should 15 be separate infrastructure requirements addressed by 16 NFPA, and on vehicle requirements addressed through 17 SAE International. SAE standards are a recognized 18 source for automobile standards, and are often 19 referenced, adopted by NHTSA in federal regulations 20 such as FMVSS 305. Thank you. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 22 would you like to state the Panel's position, please. 23 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd 24 like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 12, Scott 25 Cline, for a technical response.

569 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 SCOTT CLINE: I am Scott Cline, representing 2 NECA. I am the Chair of NECA Code-Making Panel 12, 3 which is responsible for Article 625. I speak against 4 this motion. 5 Again, we hear from the vehicle manufacturing 6 industry that they should be able to offer options 7 which turn the vehicle into a non-transportation power 8 supply system, without conforming to NEC standards. 9 Despite hearing that the time spent by the Panel is 10 irrelevant, it actually proves the well-considered 11 actions which the Panel has taken. 12 I will again insist that the protections which 13 the Code-Making Panel was very careful to require, do 14 not impede the safe use of vehicles for 15 transportation; do not impede the safe use of vehicles 16 for providing power to a dwelling; do not impede the 17 safe use of vehicles for stationary use as a power 18 generator. Providing this option is exactly that. 19 It's an option not relevant to transportation. 20 We only insist that it be done safely, to the 21 same standards as elsewhere in the NEC. Please vote 22 no on this motion. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 24 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 25 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in

570 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 support, or against the motion. Microphone five, 2 please. 3 JIM TARCHINSKI: Good evening. Again, my 4 name's Jim Tarchinski, representing SAE International, 5 speaking for the motion at hand. 6 As Mr. Burkett already mentioned, the listing 7 process would be very difficult to set up and operate. 8 Let me explain why, though. 9 Automobiles use a distributed computing system, 10 where the software to drive a particular component 11 generally does not reside in that component. It could 12 reside across the vehicle. This would make it 13 different - this would make it difficult to set up a 14 particular device in a listing lab. 15 Also, the listing requirements do not cover the 16 automotive environment, including crash worthiness 17 requirements. As Doug mentioned, the AHJ would have 18 no way to enforce this requirement. They cannot 19 safely disassemble a vehicle in the field to make 20 certain it complies with the NEC code. 21 And as previously mentioned, the National 22 Highway Traffic Safety Administration has this area 23 covered. They have regulations on the book. NHTSA 24 obviously has not seen any safety issues in this 25 field, or they would have started an investigation,

571 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 started regulations. 2 For these reasons, I strongly recommend a vote 3 in favor of these motions - or this motion. Thank 4 you. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone one, 6 please. 7 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, representing myself. 8 Call the question. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: There's a motion from the 10 floor to call the question. I notice there are a 11 number of people remaining at the microphones waiting 12 to speak, but I will proceed with the vote on the call 13 of the question Do we have a second? 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. And in 16 order to vote on the motion, please scroll down to the 17 bottom of the tablet to vote. If you wish to vote in 18 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 19 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 20 your vote. 21 The voting will end in five seconds. 22 The voting is closed. 23 The results are: 356 in favor of calling the 24 question; 14 against calling the question. Therefore, 25 the motion is passed to call the question.

572 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I'll move to the main motion. Before we vote, 2 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 3 to Accept Public Comment No. 1590. To vote, touch the 4 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 5 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 6 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 7 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 8 record your vote. 9 Voting will close in five seconds. 10 The voting is closed. 11 The results are: 30 in favor of the motion; 12 and 346 against the motion. The motion has failed. 13 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 14 Certified Amending Motion 70-39. Microphone four? 15 No. Okay. I'm not seeing the maker of the motion at 16 a microphone. Last call for 70-39. Seeing that the 17 maker of the motion, nor an identified designated 18 representative has approached the - to make the 19 motion, 70-39, in accordance with the NFPA Convention 20 Rules, Section 2.7, the motion may not be considered 21 by the assembly, and is removed from the Agenda. We 22 will now move on to the next motion included in the 23 Agenda. 24 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 25 Certified Amending Motion 70-40. Microphone four,

573 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 please. 2 SCOTT SCHMIDT: Yes. This is Scott Schmidt 3 with the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. I'd 4 like to move to withdraw this motion. 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yay. 6 (applause) 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: The Motion 70-40 appeared on 8 the Agenda. However, the authorized maker of the 9 motion has notified NFPA that he is no - no - no 10 longer wishes to pursue this motion. Therefore, in 11 accordance with the NFPA Rules, Convention Rules at 12 Section 2.7, the motion may not be considered by the 13 assembly, and is removed from the agenda. We will now 14 move to the next motion. 15 As we discussed earlier, we have reordered the 16 next motion so that it will be discussed in paragraph 17 section order. The discussion on Motion 70-3 will be 18 heard next. 19 SCOTT SCHMIDT: Thank you. This is Scott 20 Schmidt of the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Let - let me, let me -- 22 SCOTT SCHMIDT: I'm sorry. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Just give me one - now let's 24 proceed with the discussion on Certified Amending 25 Motion 70-3. Microphone four, please.

574 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 SCOTT SCHMIDT: Thank you, Chairman. Scott 2 Schmidt with the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, 3 for Nancy Stone, the Auto Makers Trade Association, 4 and SAE. I'd like to make a motion to Accept PC 5 Comment 1482. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 7 on the floor to Accept Public Comment 1482. Is there 8 a second? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I second. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 11 proceed with the discussion of the motion. 12 SCOTT SCHMIDT: Thank you. This is Scott 13 Schmidt with the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, 14 and I support the motion. 15 625.60 seeks to regulate all on board AC 16 receptacle outlets that provide power to external 17 loads using the vehicle as a source of supply. 18 Again, we've mentioned that there requirements 19 really do not contemplate that automobile electric's 20 architecture, that's significantly different from the 21 installations. And 6025.60 - conflicts with existing 22 safety oversight. And as I've repeated before, and 23 I'll be very brief - that it basically conflicts with 24 federal preemptive authority. It also conflicts with 25 some of the requirements in the FMVSS standards.

575 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 There also is no real safety need that's been 2 identified, and we've looked to try to have a way to 3 set up a joint kind of SAE/NFPA type of approval, or a 4 - I'm sorry, I'm getting tired - approach to try to 5 come up with something that's fairly reasonable. 6 However, what is a little different about this 7 is that there are a lack of safety benefits with 8 regards to the automotive applications. And 6025.60 9 seeks to improve safety by requiring GFCI protection. 10 That's just it. However, a ground really doesn't 11 exist in automotive applications, and it's therefore 12 not really appropriate to apply the ground fault logic 13 to those installations. If installed, the ground 14 effect GFCI may not even trip in fault conditions. 15 One of the things about FMVSS 305 and SAE standards is 16 they require isolation resistance that limits fault 17 currents to no more than two milliamps. Meanwhile, 18 the NFPA Class A GFCI says it shall not trip unless 19 the fault current, you know, is less than four 20 milliamps. So there's a bit of a disconnection there 21 that I think (unintelligible) going to be 22 (unintelligible) attention to. 23 There's also various use conditions, and 24 receptacles are not appropriately addressed. 625.60 25 lacks clarity on the significantly wide variety of

576 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 usages and equipment it may be intended to address. 2 For example, AC receptacle outlets in the cabin are 3 not electrically grounded, and the on board wires 4 conductively connected to the AC receptacle are 5 electrically insulated. If a ground fault were to 6 occur, the current return path that might cause 7 electrocution would not be formed, rendering GFCI 8 protection unnecessary. 9 There also is inconsistency with other NEC 10 Sections - 625.60, 625.2, both clearly specify 11 requirements for on board outlets. However, 625.1 and 12 90.2 can be interpreted otherwise. 13 Code-Making Committee attempted to address 14 these inconsistencies, but the definition of such 15 interfaces remain. Thank you. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 17 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please. 18 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 19 were no correlation issues or conflicts identified by 20 the NEC Correlating Committee. I'd once again like to 21 defer to the Chair of Code Panel 12, Scott Cline, at 22 microphone two, please. 23 SCOTT CLINE: One last time - I'm Scott Cline, 24 representing NECA. I am the Chair of NECA - of NEC 25 Code-Making Panel 12, which is responsible for Article

577 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 625, and I speak against this motion. 2 You have heard my statements about the decision 3 by vehicle manufacturers to provide electrical supply 4 power having nothing to do with transportation. 5 During the many hours the Panel spent on these issues, 6 we did thoroughly consider the many requirements 7 brought in during the First Revision process. We 8 carefully listened to the concerns brought up in 9 discussion, and made compromises, with a target to 10 keep all necessary, basic regulations, and still 11 remove some regulations which were not written in as 12 efficient a manner for manufacturing. 13 Among the Committee actions on 625.60 was SR 14 7796 that removed the paren, (a) grounding requirement 15 - changed to listed receptacle. That was voted 17 to 16 1. SR 7798 allowed paren, (c) overcurrent protection 17 to be anywhere in the supply, instead of at the 18 receptacle. Panel voting was 18 to 0. SR 7799, 19 allowed paren, (d) GFCI protection anywhere in the 20 system, as long as reset was readily accessible. 21 Panel voting was 17 to 1. SR 7800 deleted (e), the 22 inverter listing requirement, due to the added 23 requirements of (a) through (d). That vote was 18 to 24 nothing. SR 7801 deleted paren, (f) marking 25 requirements as not required as a redundant issue.

578 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Panel voting was 18 to zero. 2 We have already carefully compromised on this 3 solution. 4 (laughter) 5 SCOTT CLINE: Is what we've done perfect? 6 Nothing I know of in the NEC is perfect, but future 7 editing is the way to strive for better, not 8 abandoning hundreds of hours spent on the work done to 9 date. The NFPA has the responsibility to consider 10 these regulations. I say to please vote no on this 11 motion. 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 13 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 14 name and affiliation, and whether you're speaking in 15 support, or against the motion. Microphone two, 16 please. Oh - I, I apologize. Microphone five. 17 JIM TARCHINSKI: Good evening. Jim Tarchinski, 18 representing SAE International, speaking for the 19 motion. 20 I would just like to elaborate on the comments 21 that Mr. Schmidt made, relative to the existing 22 disconnects between FMVSS 305 and what's in the draft 23 version of the National Electric Code. 24 The FMVSS is very specific that vehicles must 25 shut down if there's an isolation fault equivalent to

579 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 two milliamps. But in the GFCI requirements we need 2 to be able to keep operating in that condition. 3 That's a very significant disconnect. 4 The other thing that was pointed out to me is I 5 realized a lot of you are thinking about vehicles 6 powering the home. And that's not really the use case 7 that is being the considered here. The outlets are 8 provided in vehicles for convenience so customers can 9 charge their cell phone, can go ahead and use their 10 laptop for the folks in the backseat. They will not 11 draw significant power. They will not allow inductive 12 loads. They will not be able to power your home. 13 They are intended for small loads. Read your owner's 14 manual. That's generally in there; it's very well 15 defined. The system will shut down if it detects too 16 much current being taken. Again, it's not intended 17 for powering the home. It's convenience only. Thank 18 you. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone one. 20 EDDIE GEDRY: Eddie Gedry, representing myself. 21 Call the question. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ah. 23 (applause) 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: There's a motion from the 25 floor to call the question.

580 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, I object, 2 from the point of view that I was at this microphone 3 before he stood up out of his chair, and got to that 4 stand. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I have my own notes of when 6 I saw people at microphones, and I apologize if I 7 didn't see you, but the motion has been called. So I 8 will have to go with the motion. I, I -- 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I still object. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I do the best I can to keep 11 up with who's at a microphone. 12 EDDIE GEDRY: Mr. Chair, I don't know if this 13 is out of order, but this gentleman was correct. He 14 was there first. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I have a motion. I don't 16 have a second yet. Can he withdraw his motion before 17 I get a second? 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Call the question. 20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's it. 23 (laughter) 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: That's it? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible)

581 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 EDDIE GEDRY: May I withdraw my motion? 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I'm looking for my hired 3 help here. 4 (laughter) 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: They told me I was ir- 6 reasonable to think of things like this, so I'm going 7 to pause. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second the motion. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Third. 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: And, and I do apologize. 14 It's, it's touch to be a Chair, and, and see, and -- 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I'm good, Mr. Chair. 16 I'm, I'm good. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. 18 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Seriously, it's cool. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. I, I apologize. I 20 really do. 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I, I do the best I can to 23 keep track of who's at which microphone. And then I 24 also try to balance for and against so we don't get a 25 whole bunch of one side. So it - trying to do the

582 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 best that we can. 2 So I have a motion on, on the floor to call the 3 question. There were a number of people remaining at 4 the microphone waiting to speak. If you vote the 5 motion down, those people will have a chance to speak. 6 It's your, it's your call. Do I have a second? 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I have a second. In order 9 to vote on this motion, please scroll down to the 10 bottom of the table to vote. If you wish to vote in 11 support of the motion, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 12 vote against the motion, touch 'No'. Please record 13 your vote. 14 The voting will close in five seconds. 15 The vote is closed. 16 And 317 in favor of calling the question; there 17 are 70 against the motion to call the question. So 18 the motion has passed to call the question. 19 And before we vote, let me restate the motion. 20 The motion on the floor is to Accept Public Comment 21 No. 1482. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you 22 wish to vote in support of the motion, and recommend 23 the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to 24 vote against the motion, and recommend the text on 25 Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote.

583 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The voting will close in five seconds. 2 The voting is closed. 3 The results of the vote are: 24 in favor of 4 the motion; 355 against the motion. The motion has 5 failed. 6 Let's now proceed with the discussion on 7 Certified Amending Motion 70-41. Microphone four. 8 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard Herndon with PEARL; 9 Motion 70-41 to Reject Second Revision 7522. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 11 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 7522. Is 12 there a second? 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: Second. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 15 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 16 HOWARD HERNDON: Real quick on this. There's 17 two issues. One is, we feel that this is new material 18 because this has not been covered with any review. 19 And fire pump controllers are made up of many 20 different components. They could include circuit 21 breakers, contactors, relays, starters - all types of 22 components within those systems. And we feel that not 23 permitting them can be - to be reconditioned could 24 actually do undue hardship in existing facilities. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston,

584 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 2 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. As a 3 reminder, one of the responsibilities of the 4 Correlating Committee is to call balls and strikes 5 when it comes to judgment on new material. The NEC 6 Correlating Committee reviewed the complete record of 7 both public input and comments to ensure there was no 8 new material being introduced. The Correlating 9 Committee concluded that no new material was related 10 to the definition of reconditioned, and the rules 11 related to it. There were no apparent conflicts, or 12 correlation issues identified by the Correlating 13 Committee, and I'd like to defer to the Chair of Code 14 Panel 13, Linda Little, and I think she's at 15 microphone three, please. 16 LINDA LITTLE: Thank you. My name is Linda 17 Little. I'm Chairman of Code Panel 13, and I 18 represent the IBEW. I stand in opposition to the 19 motion on the floor, and I support the Panel action. 20 Multiple manufacturers are represented on Code 21 Panel 13, and all sides of the issue had an 22 opportunity to speak. I encourage this body to oppose 23 the motion on the floor. Thank you. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 25 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your

585 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 name and affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 2 support, or against the motion. I'll go to microphone 3 two. 4 JOHN KOVACHIC: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm 5 John Kovachic, UL LLC, and I'm speaking on behalf of 6 UL, against the motion. I'm also a member of the NFPA 7 20 Committee on Stationary Fire Pumps. I'm not 8 speaking on behalf of the Committee, but as a 30 year 9 member of the Committee, I'd like to address primarily 10 fire pump controllers. But transfer switches can be 11 provided as a combination unit with a fire pump 12 controller, so they factor into my comments, as well. 13 Fire pump controllers are life safety 14 equipment, and no doubt about it. Just ask any member 15 of the 20 Committee, or other committees associated 16 with fire protection and fire suppression. A fire 17 pump controller controls a motor, which is a prime 18 mover for a pump that delivers water into a sprinkler 19 system in the event of a fire. Besides controlling 20 the motor, the fire pump controller performs other 21 function. It is monitoring the pressure in that 22 sprinkler system, which is the parameter that 23 determines whether a pump needs to start to deliver 24 water - for example, when a sprinkler opens. The 25 controller is also monitoring conductors going out to

586 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 remote start stations - looking at those conductors to 2 make sure that they're continuous. If there's any 3 breakage or any disconnection, they're required then 4 to send a signal back to the controller, which then 5 starts the pump. So it's definitely life safety 6 equipment. 7 And reconditioning a fire pump controller would 8 be tantamount to playing with the lives of people in a 9 building that are depending on fire suppression 10 equipment to protect them. 11 Ladies and gentlemen of this body, I urge you 12 to vote against this motion. Thank you. 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone 14 three, please. 15 MIKE STONE: Mike Stone, representing NEMA. 16 NEMA opposes this Motion to Reject Second Revision 17 7522 related to the reconditioning of fire pump 18 controllers and transfer switches. Thank you. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 20 please. 21 BARRY RODGERS: I am Barry Rodgers. I 22 represent Schneider Electric. We are against this 23 motion. We support the action taken by the Code Panel 24 to include this language. 25 Safety is the major reason to adopt this

587 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 change. My concern - my safety concern includes 2 safety of workers, as well as safety of occupants and 3 facilities. I urge you to vote against this motion. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 5 please. 6 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Thank you. My name is 7 Thomas Domitrovich, with Eaton. Transfer switch and 8 fire pump controllers - both of those components are 9 very technically complicated devices. As a 10 manufacturer of both of those devices, I do not 11 support the CAM that's on the, on the motion. I'm 12 speaking in opposition. 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Yes. 14 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Yes. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 16 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Sorry about that. 17 Speaking in opposition. These - this equipment is 18 very technical, and it should not be reconditioned in 19 the field, nor any time after installation or 20 manufacture. It is a life saving equipment, and very 21 important that it functions correctly. Please vote 22 against this motion on the floor. Thank you. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 24 further discussion on Motion 70-41 to Reject Second 25 Revision No. 7522? Just waiting to see if they're

588 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 going to a microphone. No? Okay. Mr. Johnston, any 2 final comment? 3 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Mr. 4 Chair. Thank you. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: All right. Before we vote, 6 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 7 to reject Second Revision 7522. To vote, touch the 8 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 9 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 10 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 11 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 12 record your vote. 13 The voting will close in five seconds. 14 The voting is closed. 15 The results are: 11 in favor of the motion; 16 391 against the motion. The motion has failed. 17 Now let's proceed to the discussion on 18 Certified Amending Motion 70-42. Microphone four. 19 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard Herndon with PEARL. 20 Reject - Motion 70-42 to Reject the Second Revision 21 7584. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 23 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 7584. Is 24 there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

589 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 3 HOWARD HERNDON: We feel this is the same case 4 as the previous discussion - that it is in fact, new 5 material, and that in fact, they are made of many 6 different components, which many of these components 7 can be reconditioned to assemble a complete automatic 8 transfer switch. And in fact, I've done it myself. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible). 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Not going to say it. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 13 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 14 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 15 NEC Correlating Committee reviewed the complete record 16 of both public input and comments to ensure that there 17 was no new material being introduced. The conclusion 18 was that there were - was no new material introduced 19 related to the definition of recondition, and the 20 rules related to it. There are no apparent conflicts 21 or correlation issues related to this CAM. I would 22 like to defer of Code-Making Panel 13, Linda Little, 23 at microphone three for some technical comments. 24 LINDA LITTLE: Thank you. My name is Linda 25 Little. I'm Chairman of Code Panel 13. I represent

590 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 IBEW. I stand in opposition to the motion on the 2 floor, in support of Panel action. 3 Multiple manufacturers are represented on Code 4 Panel 13, including transfer switch manufacturers. 5 And all of them had the opportunity to present their 6 sides of this issue. I encourage this body to oppose 7 the motion on the floor. Thank you. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 9 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 10 name, affiliation, and whether you're speaking in 11 support, or against the motion. Microphone two, 12 please. 13 JIM DOLLARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 14 is Jim Dollard, representing the International 15 Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. I rise in 16 opposition to the motion on the floor. 17 We have heard all the arguments. This - there 18 is no new material. These are transfer switches for 19 emergency systems. We're going to get to do this 20 again in 701, 702, and 708. I urge that this body, 21 very quickly, oppose the motion on the floor. Thank 22 you. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone 24 three, please. 25 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: My name is Thomas

591 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Domitrovich with Eaton. We are a manufacturer - Eaton 2 is a manufacturer of automatic transfer switches, and 3 we do not support the reconditioning of this 4 equipment. It is life safety. This is Article 700. 5 We do not support, and we would hope that others in 6 this room will continue to not support the 7 reconditioning of this equipment. I speak in 8 opposition to this motion. Thank you. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two. 10 BARRY RODGERS: I am Barry Rodgers. I 11 represent Schneider Electric. We are against this 12 motion. We support the action take by the Code Panel 13 to include this language. 14 Safety is the major reason to adopt these 15 changes. My safety concern includes the safety of 16 workers, as well as safety of occupants and 17 facilities. I urge you to vote against this motion. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 19 further discussion on Motion 70-42 to reject Second 20 Revision 7584? Mr. Johnston, do you have any final 21 comments? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 23 Thank you. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 25 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is

592 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 to Reject Second Revision 7584. To vote, touch the 2 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 3 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 4 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 5 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 6 record your vote. 7 The vote will close in five seconds. 8 The voting is closed. 9 The results are: 16 in favor of the motion; 10 388 against the motion. The motion has failed. 11 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 12 Certified Amending Motion 70-43. Microphone four, 13 please. 14 HOWARD HERNDON: Again, this is Howard Herndon, 15 representing PEARL, and we would have the same 16 argument, that this is a new material, number one. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Excuse me. 18 HOWARD HERNDON: Number two -- 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: You need to make the motion. 20 HOWARD HERNDON: Oh, I'm sorry. Rejecting - 21 Motion 70.43, Rejecting Second Revision 7586. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a 23 motion on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 24 7586. Is there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

593 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 3 HOWARD HERNDON: Our discussion would go to the 4 same line that it's gone with the other issues. On 5 transfer switches, we feel that these can be 6 reconditioned, and this is new material to this 7 section. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 9 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 10 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 11 Correlating Committee reviewed the complete record of 12 both public input and comments to ensure there was no 13 new material being introduced. The conclusion was 14 that no new material was being introduced related to 15 the definition of reconditioned, or any of the rules 16 related to it, including the new rules. There are no 17 apparent conflicts or correlation issues, and I'd like 18 to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 13, Linda Little, 19 for a technical response, at microphone three. 20 LINDA LITTLE: Thank you. My name is Linda 21 Little. I'm the Chairman of Panel 13, and I represent 22 the IBEW. I stand in opposition to the motion. All 23 sides of this issue had an opportunity to speak at the 24 Panel meetings. I encourage you to reject this 25 motion. Thank you.

594 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 2 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 3 name and affiliation, and whether you're speaking in 4 support, or against the motion. Microphone three, 5 please. 6 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Thank you. My name is 7 Thomas Domitrovich, with Eaton. I speak in opposition 8 to the motion on the floor. 9 This is not new material. We've heard this 10 over and over again. I agree with that. And I agree 11 with the, the actions of the Panel. We should 12 continue to support the Panel. Please vote in - 13 against this motion. Thank you. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two. 15 BARRY RODGERS: I am Barry Rodgers. I 16 represent Schneider Electric. We're against this 17 motion. We support the action taken by the Code Panel 18 to, to include this language. Safety is the major 19 reason to adopt these changes. I urge you to vote 20 against this motion. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 22 further discussion on Motion 70-43 to Reject Second 23 Revision No. 7586? Mr. Johnston, any final comments? 24 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you.

595 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 3 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 4 to Reject Second Revision No. 7586. To vote, touch 5 the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of 6 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, 7 touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, 8 and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. 9 Please record your vote. 10 The voting will close in five seconds. 11 The voting is closed. 12 The results are: 10 in favor of the motion; 13 400 against the motion. The motion has failed. 14 Now let's proceed to the discussion on 15 Certified Amending Motion 70-44. Microphone four, 16 please. 17 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard - Howard Herndon, 18 representing PEARL. Motion 70-44 to Reject an 19 Identifiable Part of Second Revision 7588. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 21 on the floor to Reject an Identifiable Part of Second 22 Revision No. 7588. Is there a second? 23 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 25 proceed with the discussion on the motion.

596 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 HOWARD HERNDON: Article 702.5 - transfer 2 switches can be found in many, many different pieces 3 of equipment, including UPSes and, and in separate 4 components, being both breaker based, and contactor 5 based. We feel like that this article paints it with 6 a very broad brush, and is new material. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 8 would you like to offer the Panel's position. 9 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Since 10 the new material issue was brought again, I'll 11 reemphasize that the NEC Correlating Committee, 12 fulfilling its responsibilities, did review the 13 complete record of both public input and comments to 14 ensure that no new material was being introduced. 15 Conclusion was that no new material related to the 16 definition of recondition, and the rules that relate 17 to it, were introduced into the process. There are no 18 apparent conflicts or correlation issues. And I'd 19 like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 13, Linda 20 Little, at microphone three, please. 21 LINDA LITTLE: Thank you. My name is Linda 22 Little. I'm the Chairman, Code Panel 13. I represent 23 the IBEW, and I speak in opposition to this motion. 24 All the Panel members had ample time to discuss 25 this issue. Many manufacturers are represented on our

597 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Panel. I encourage you to vote against the motion on 2 the floor. Thank you. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two. 4 JOHN MCKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. John 5 McKenzie. I represent Schneider Electric. We support 6 the actions of the Code-Making Panel, and oppose this 7 motion. 8 I don't wish to subject the Membership to a 9 complete restatement of our argument against Motion 10 70-30, but the premise is the same. 11 I will, however, restate that engaging in 12 reconditioning without knowledge of the methods and 13 procedures used by the manufacturer can result in an 14 unsafe product; or the attempt to recondition a 15 product that cannot and should not be reconditioned. 16 We urge the Membership to oppose this motion. Thank 17 you. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone 19 three, please. 20 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Thomas Domitrovich with 21 Eaton, speaking in opposition to the motion on the 22 floor. Eaton is a manufacturer of transfer switches. 23 These are safety related devices. I agree with my 24 colleague from Schneider that explained these - that 25 modifying this equipment can be dangerous, and result

598 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 in tragedy. So please, continue to not support this 2 motion. Thank you. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: All right. Thank you. Is 4 there any further discussion on Motion 70-44 to Reject 5 an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 7588? Mr. 6 Johnston, any final comment? 7 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 9 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Before we vote, let me 11 restate the motion. The motion on the floor is to 12 Reject an Identifiable Part of Second Revision No. 13 7588. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish 14 to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 15 text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote 16 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 17 Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 18 The voting will close in five seconds. 19 The voting is closed. 20 The results are: 30 in favor of the motion; 21 380 against the motion. The motion has failed. 22 Now let's proceed to the discussion on 23 Certified Amending Motion 70-45. Microphone four, 24 please. 25 TIM CROUSHORE: Yes. My name is Tim Croushore.

599 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I represent the electric utility industry as a 2 consultant for the Edison Electric Institute. And I 3 move to Reject Second Revision No. 8159, Including Any 4 Related Portions of First Revision No. 8608. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 6 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 8159, 7 Including Any Related Portions of the First Revision 8 No. 8608. Is there a second? 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 11 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 12 TIM CROUSHORE: Thank you. My name is Timothy 13 Croushore. I represent the electric utility industry 14 as a consultant for the Edison Electric Institute. I 15 stand for the motion. 16 What this deals with, in Article 705 is 17 interconnected electric power production sources that 18 are interconnected with the electric utilities. These 19 sources are solar, energy storage, fuel cells, wind, 20 and as we've heard, vehicles. 21 The three options to interconnect premises 22 wiring systems - and I'll really emphasis premises 23 wiring, because we really need to look at this is the 24 - what's covered by the NEC is premises wiring. 25 There are three options to interconnect

600 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 premises wiring - with generation, premises wiring 2 generation to the utility. One would be after the 3 service disconnecting means. Two would be a separate 4 service, permitted - already permitted by 230.2(A)(5), 5 or 230.40. Or option number three, and this is what 6 this is about - is ahead of the disconnecting means, 7 is already permitted in 230.82, specifically Item No. 8 6. 9 Now, since this CAM deals with option number 10 three, ahead of the service disconnecting means, there 11 was a lot of moving parts during both the First 12 Revision, and Second Revision process on the 2020 code 13 making process. This involved three different panels 14 - Code-Making Panel 4, in which I'm a principal 15 member; Code-Making Panel 5; and Code-Making Panel 10. 16 Okay. Now, this deals with how to ground and bond 17 these connections. 18 Now, during the same time, Code-Making Panel 5 19 already has worked on these requirements to bond this 20 in Article - bond and ground this in Article 250. 21 They are covered in new Section 250.25 for system 22 grounding, and our traditional Section 250.92 for the 23 bonding of services. 24 Basically, the requirements in 705-11(D) are 25 not required. Furthermore, this is a safety issue,

601 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 with - when you have a grounded service. The 2 conductor is not bonded through the main bonding 3 jumper, through the enclosure of the disconnecting 4 means, as required by 250-24(C), and also by 250-28. 5 My CAM eliminates this complete section in its 6 entirety, and the requirements of Article 250 can 7 apply safely. The issue was thoroughly discussed at 8 length in the Electrical Section meeting, and the 9 members voted to support this CAM. I request the 10 Membership of the Association to vote in favor of this 11 Certified Amending Motion. Thank you. 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 13 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 14 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 15 were no apparent correlating issues, or conflicts 16 identified by the NEC Correlating Committee. And I'd 17 like to defer to the Chair of Code-Making Panel 4, Jim 18 Rogers. And Jim is at microphone two. 19 JIM ROGERS: Good evening - oh, good morning, 20 pretty soon. 21 (laughter) 22 JIM ROGERS: My name's Jim Rogers. I represent 23 IAEI as the Chair on Code-Making Panel 4. I speak 24 against the motion. 25 Code-Making Panel 4 deals with alternative

602 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 energy sources, and their interconnection with the 2 utility companies in 705. We had multiple public 3 inputs, and public comments on this issue. And we 4 soon discovered that there was rampant confusion all 5 across the country on how this could be done safely 6 and uniformly. And we had, like I say, multiple 7 public inputs and comments on that. 8 The Panel spent several hours - multiply - this 9 was probably the most heavily discussed item in both 10 the First Revision and the Second Revision process. 11 As a result, we - the Panel constructed language 12 totally in the First Revision, that was totally 13 rewritten in the Second Revision, to simplify and 14 clarify the portions of Article 250 that should be 15 utilized when making the connection to one of these 16 disconnects that's required ahead - when you make a 17 connection ahead of the service main. 18 The Panel never wanted to circumvent the 19 requirements of, of Article 250, but simply clarify 20 them. And, and that was the language that they put in 21 place to do that. Sorry, I'm a little tired. I'm 22 getting - I'm losing my train of thought here a little 23 bit. 24 So the, the - it was an overwhelming majority. 25 17 to 1 was the Panel vote to accept this language.

603 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 And the one dissenting vote was the EEI vote. And 2 part of the rationale for that dissenting vote was 3 250.92 not being complied with. But the language does 4 reference 250.92. And I respectfully request, because 5 of that clarity and uniformity in application of these 6 rules, I respectfully request that you support the 7 Panel on this, and reject this motion. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 9 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 10 name and affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 11 support, or against the motion. Microphone three, 12 please. 13 JASON FISHER: Hello. I am Jason Fisher. I am 14 representing the Solar Energy Industries Association 15 here, and I'm speaking against this motion. I was one 16 of the voting members of the Code-Making Panel Four, 17 and I'm a licensed electrician who has applied the 18 code to my daily work for over 25 years. I'm not 19 speaking on behalf of the Technical Committee, though. 20 The first thing I'd note about this motion is 21 that the report of the motion's Committee that's 22 currently posted on NFPA 70 Next Edition web page as 23 of today, shows different language than that is what's 24 up on the screen. According to that report, it states 25 that - that is stated as the final report on the

604 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Certified Amended Motion, that this motion, based on 2 NITMAM Log 108 was a motion to reject a Second 3 Revision. What I see here, though, is completely 4 different, since now this motion seems to want to 5 strike the entire section, including the First 6 Revision language. 7 This concerns me a bit, since I don't really 8 understand how a motion can keep changing up to the 9 last minute, but - and personally, I am not clear that 10 this motion's in order. But since it's up there, I'll 11 go ahead and address it, with my apologies to the 12 members in the room for the time it takes me, but I 13 must go on the record to oppose this. 14 It, it's not true I do not agree that there is 15 a safety concern with this language. I agree with our 16 Chair that this language, which the Committee worked 17 very hard to create with lots of debate, adds a lot of 18 clarity - that's important. It was significantly 19 debated, with dozens of task group meetings, and many 20 hours spent on it, and it was based on multiple inputs 21 and comments. 22 To delete this section would, in fact, remove 23 requirements for these installations, which are 24 becoming increasingly common every year. The removal 25 of a set of requirements that were written to ensure

605 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 safety, does not improve safety. By removing this 2 section, electricians like myself, and enforcers of 3 the code would be left without clear requirements, and 4 thus would have to go back to hunting for, and 5 debating over what the code actually requires for 6 these installations. I didn't hear that there were 7 any real conflicts. There was a suggestion that this 8 was just duplicative. I don't think it's going to be 9 the only language in the code that helps aid the users 10 of the code to follow requirements correctly, and 11 that's why it's important to remain. I urge the 12 membership to reject this motion, and to support the 13 Committee. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 15 please. 16 JOHN KOVACHIC: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. John 17 Kovachic, UL LLC, speaking on behalf of the Electrical 18 Section of the National Fire Protection Association, 19 and speaking for the motion. 20 The Electrical Section had its business meeting 21 on Tuesday of this week, and the Section voted to 22 support the motion on the floor. Ladies and gentlemen 23 of this body, I ask for your support in voting for 24 this motion. Thank you. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four,

606 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 please. 2 TIM CROUSHORE: Thank you very much. Timothy 3 Croushore. I represent the electric utility industry 4 as a consultant through the Edison Electric Institute. 5 I stand for the motion. 6 A couple different things. Jim Rogers, 7 excellent Panel Chairman. As you know, it's Panel 8 Chairman's responsibility to stand up and support the 9 Panel Chair, and every good panel chairman does that. 10 The issue here is not necessarily supporting the 11 panel; the issue here is one of safety. If you 12 notice, the, the disconnecting means that we've been 13 talking about, and we'll be covering that on the next 14 Certified Amending Motion, should be a service 15 disconnecting means. And as you know, every inspector 16 knows on the service disconnecting means, it's not the 17 supply side bonding jumper; it's the main bonding 18 jumper. And if you look at about the middle of the 19 paragraph, it's incorrect. 20 What we're concerned with is confusion between 21 the requirements of Panel 5, and these requirements in 22 the field. We respectfully request that all of these 23 be removed, and new Section 250.25, which for a 24 grounded service, talk about 250.24, and that is about 25 a page and a half. You cannot cover all the

607 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 requirements of 250.24 in just one few - in just a few 2 sentences. 3 So therefore, I recommend to the, the 4 Association that we support this Certified Amending 5 Motion, and leave the grounding to the grounding 6 experts in Article 250. Thank you. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four. 8 LEO ZIEMAN (phonetic): Thank you. My name is 9 Leo Zieman. I am with Florida Power and Light, and 10 also with the Edison Electric Institute, and am voting 11 alternate for Panel No. 4. And I speak in favor of 12 this motion, for the exact same reasons that they have 13 been stating all along - and that is that the language 14 in their proposed revision, which is shown up there in 15 red, would constitute a problem with the availability 16 of fault return back to the source to the utility. 17 And that is really what's at crux here. 18 I also believe that, along with my colleague, 19 that when we're talking about grounding and bonding, 20 it does belong with Code-Making Panel 5. Thank you. 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four. 22 CHARLES MELLOW: Charles Mellow, with CDC 23 Mellows Consulting, respect - representing myself 24 here. The statement here that this (unintelligible) 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking for, or

608 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 against the motion? 2 CHARLES MELLOW: I'm speaking for the motion. 3 Thank you. There are some technical errors, actually, 4 in this. I am a long time member of Code Panel 5, 5 just recently off of that. But the use of the term 6 supply side (unintelligible) is actually technically 7 incorrect. What is actually needed in this location 8 is bringing the grounded circuit conductor from the 9 utility to this disconnect. That is a fault return 10 path. 11 This is about taking care of ground fault 12 current, wherever it happens in the system, and it 13 needs to be treated essentially just like a service. 14 Whether you call it a service or not doesn't matter, 15 but from a fault current standpoint, it needs to be 16 treated, and grounded, and bonded exactly like a 17 service disconnect would be. Please vote for this 18 motion. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four. 20 FRED HARTWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fred 21 Hartwell - faintly in favor of the motion. 22 At the Electrical Section, I voted against 23 this. I've now reconsidered that position. But I do 24 have a problem with describing this as a service. To 25 my way of thinking, a service supplies load. These do

609 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 not supply load. 2 However, the reason that I have changed my 3 position is that the existing text that is presented 4 in 705.11(D) can frequently undersize the conductor 5 that will accomplish the fault current return. I use 6 that kind of tortured construction to avoid the 7 question of whether it is a supply side bonding 8 jumper, or the main bonding jumper. In order to get 9 there, you have to settle the question, is it a 10 service, or not. 11 So I have a suggestion. I believe that this 12 motion is going to pass. And I suggest to Code Panel 13 4 that the way to get around this is to immediately 14 come back with a Tentative Interim Amendment that 15 restores 705.11(D), essentially the way it - they 16 wrote it, except at the end of the second sentence, 17 where it relates to the size of this fault return 18 conductor - maybe it's a main bonding jumper, and 19 maybe it's a supply side bonding jumper - we could 20 have a very interesting discussion about that. But 21 the point is, and the safety is - to make darned sure 22 that it is the right size. And whether you think it's 23 a service or not, we can establish if, if the Panel 24 comes back with a TIA, they can change this, the, the 25 back end of that sentence, and instead of relating the

610 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 size, basing the size on the size of the 705.11(B) 2 conductors, just simply say that it is to be sized on 3 - in reference to the size of the service conductors 4 to which the 705.11(B) conductors are connected. 5 And in that way, you sidestep the entire 6 semantic issue of whether it's a service or not, and 7 you accomplish the required safety by making sure that 8 that conductor is properly sized. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 10 further discussion on Motion 70-45 to Reject Second 11 Revision No. 81-59, Including Any Related Portions of 12 First Revision 8608? Mr. Johnston, do you have any 13 final comment? 14 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have no additional 15 comments, Mr. Chair. Thank you. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 17 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 18 to Reject Second Revision 8159, Including Any Related 19 Portions of the First Revision 8608. To vote, touch 20 the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of 21 the motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, 22 touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, 23 and recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. 24 Please record your vote. 25 The voting will close in five seconds.

611 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The voting is closed. 2 The results of the vote are: 285 in favor of 3 the motion; 96 against the motion. The motion has 4 passed. 5 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 6 Certified Amending Motion 70-46. Microphone four, 7 please. 8 TIM CROUSHORE: My name is Tim Croushore. I 9 represent the electric utility industry as a 10 consultant through the Edison Electric Institute. I 11 move to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment 12 No. 315. 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 14 on the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public 15 Comment No. 315. Is there a second? 16 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 18 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 19 TIM CROUSHORE: My name is Tim Croushore. I 20 represent the electric utility industry as a 21 consultant through the Edison Electric Institute. 22 This issue is relatively the same issue that we 23 talked about of Option 3 of 705.11. As Chairman 24 Rogers had said, there was confusion in this industry, 25 and we're trying to basically clarify this.

612 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 But one of the things that the Panel wanted to 2 do was to completely not name this disconnecting means 3 a service disconnecting means. So what they chose to 4 do, and the difference between what you see on the 5 left and what you see on the right, is just a deletion 6 of the word 'not'. Okay. Now, as we all know - or 7 maybe you don't know - Panel 10 did change the 8 definition of service during this 2020 cycle, is these 9 conductors that connect the utility to the premises 10 wiring. It no longer is for the transfer of energy 11 from the utility to the premises wiring. It can flow 12 both ways, per the definition of service. So that's 13 one thing that Panel 10 did. 14 Panel 10 also initiated 230.85, which they 15 wanted to, wanted for, wanted to family dwellings, 16 limit the number of disconnecting means for emergency 17 response personnel. 18 What the, what the interconnected generation 19 folks wanted to do was - 'If we don't call this a 20 service disconnecting means, then I can get away from 21 the six disconnect rule of 230.71.' As we know, there 22 are only four disconnects that can be in this case 23 that's not considered a service disconnecting means. 24 Now, Panel 10 did look at this, and there were 25 requests to Panel 10. They rejected them all. My

613 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 suggestion is that we reject these, as well. 2 So in addition, 237.70 - basically, the general 3 requirement is means shall be provided to disconnect 4 all ungrounded conductors in a building or other 5 structure from the service conductors. That's one of 6 the main requirements, that we want to be able to 7 separate the utility from the premises wiring system. 8 237.70 also has location, readily accessible 9 locations - these things can't be in a bathroom, okay. 10 If, if you have a remote control, how that has to 11 work. These disconnecting means have to be marked as 12 a service disconnecting means in such a way that it's 13 understand that this will disconnect from the utility. 14 And there's a requirement for the suitability of use, 15 so use suitable for use of service of equipment. 16 So this device disconnects the power between 17 the utility and the interconnected generation. It has 18 overcurrent protection. It's in an enclosure, and 19 it's listed as - for use as service equipment. It's 20 like the old saying - if it flies like a duck, it 21 walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and looks like a 22 duck, it's a duck. This is a service disconnecting 23 means. 24 I recommend the Association vote in favor of 25 this Certified Amending Motion. Thank you.

614 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 2 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 3 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Sure. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 4 There were no apparent correlating issues or conflicts 5 that were identified by the NEC Correlating Committee. 6 And I would like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 7 Four, Jim Rogers, at microphone two, for a technical 8 response, please. 9 JIM ROGERS: Jim Rogers, IEI, Chair of Code- 10 Making Panel 4. So I, I mostly want to talk about 11 what the Panel did. But it was very interesting, 12 watching the Back to the Future talk about the 13 National Electrical Code that I watched yesterday And 14 part of the rationale for that was looking at how we 15 deal with alternative energy systems, how we keep 16 moving forward with things like alternative energy 17 systems, and, and how does the NEC work in conjunction 18 with that. 19 Well, here's a perfect example, and why the 20 Panel was so adamant on not calling it one of the 21 service disconnects, as required in 230.70. If you 22 had an existing building that had a service, and you 23 were at the limit - let's say they were in - because 24 even under the new requirements, if they're in 25 separate enclosures, you could still have six

615 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 disconnects - so let's say you're at that limit. And 2 you use the permissive language that you find in 230, 3 to either have - use another set of service entrance 4 conductors, or you could have another service for our 5 alternative energy system to tie into. And if you did 6 that, and you called that a service disconnect along 7 with the other ones, then you could be forced to 8 replace the entire service on the building, which 9 could in essence, in some instances, make the 10 installation of an alternative energy system cost 11 prohibitive. 12 You've got to weigh safety, with the ability to 13 accomplish what you're trying to accomplish. And, and 14 that's one of the main concerns for calling that one 15 of the service disconnects in 230-70, because it - 16 there's other requirements in 705 for placarding, and, 17 and, and making sure you disconnect the, all of the 18 conductors at that interconnection point. 19 So the Panel was very adamant that they felt 20 they had covered safety, but they wanted to have - not 21 include that as one of the service disconnects, to 22 that they wouldn't be - so that the end user wouldn't 23 be forced in that instance to, like I say, change out 24 the entire service just because they wanted to add an 25 alternative energy system - without compromising

616 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 safety, like I said. Thank you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 3 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 4 name and affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 5 support, or against the motion. Microphone three, 6 please. 7 JASON FISHER: Thank you. Jason Fisher, again 8 representing SEIA, speaking against this motion. As 9 with the previous proposed motion, I again have 10 procedural concerns with regards to this motion, since 11 the 2019 Motions Committee Report shows different 12 language than that which is displayed on the screen, 13 and it's different than the original motion - because 14 according to that report, there was a, a effort to 15 strike an entire sentence, and now it - we have 16 something where we're just striking a single word. 17 So again, I, I have concerns, personal, that 18 this motion is out of order, but since it is there, 19 again, with my apologies, I have to speak against it. 20 This proposed motion presents some major 21 technical problems for users of the code. This motion 22 is to change language that the Technical Committee 23 deliberated for many hours, through both First and 24 Second Revision meetings, as well as in multiple Task 25 Group meetings. This was not language that was added

617 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 in the Second Revision. It started in the First 2 Revision, from many public inputs and comments. 3 It's also worth noting that this motion if 4 passed would impact any source interconnection that is 5 interconnected with the primary source. It's not just 6 solar, but it's any parallel connected source, such as 7 a energy storage system generator, etc. The language 8 as the Committee wrote it, that these are not service 9 disconnects is true, consistent with how the code has 10 been discussed, and taught for decades. If this 11 sentence was revised as the submitter's request, this 12 section would create a code conflict for many users of 13 the code, since it seems to indicate that other 14 sections that have been referred to would not apply. 15 So something that many folks in this room might 16 not know about, because it was all new, is because of 17 the hard work of my fellow Committee members, and 18 those on other committees such as CMP 13, concerns 19 over the ability to have indication of the presence 20 of, ready access to, and the control of on site power 21 sources has been addressed substantially in the 2020 22 Second Draft. Regardless of the type of on site power 23 source, there are now specific requirements for 24 identification of those sources, disconnection of 25 those sources, and ready access to those disconnects,

618 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 etc. This - I commend all the committees who worked 2 hard to look forward into the requirements that were 3 the new challenges that we're going to be faced with 4 the interconnection of all these new sources; and that 5 has been done in the relevant articles for those 6 sources. 7 So again, I'd ask the NFPA Membership to reject 8 this motion. It's better with it. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you very much. 10 Microphone four, please. 11 JOHN KOVACICH: Thank you, Mr. Chair. John 12 Kovacich, UL LLC, speaking on behalf of the Electrical 13 Section of NFPA as its official representative, and 14 speaking for the motion. 15 The Electrical Section had its business meeting 16 on Tuesday of this week, and the Section voted to 17 support the motion on the floor. Ladies and gentlemen 18 of this body, I ask for your support in voting for 19 this motion. Thank you. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. And I'm going to 21 go in order of the microphone here. I'm going to go 22 back to four one more time. 23 LEO ZIEMAN: That's all right. If they want to 24 go ahead first, they can. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Microphone four.

619 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 LEO ZIEMAN: Oh, I'm sorry. Leo Zieman, with 2 Florida Power and Light, and Edison Electric 3 Institute, and also an alternative voting member for 4 Panel 4, and I speak in favor of this motion. 5 There were people that came up to these 6 microphones, both in for and against motions, and 7 other amendments. And they spoke about how electrons, 8 electricity doesn't care where it comes from, or where 9 it goes to. The direction if it doesn't matter. It's 10 gonna flow. So here we go - we have a point of 11 connection with a utility, and that is called a 12 disconnecting means. When you have that point there, 13 regardless of whether the premise is using load, or 14 it's actually generating back onto the grid. So 15 therefore, these disconnect means that we were talking 16 about, applies for both load and source. 17 Again, I will plead to the body to vote in 18 favor of this motion. Thank you. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two. 20 MATT PACE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. My name is 21 Matt Pace, representing the IAFF. I'm also a primary 22 representative on Code Panel 4, and I'm speaking 23 against the measure. 24 I'm going to make two very brief, short 25 comments. The first one is that in very simple terms,

620 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 which is how I have to represent this to the Fire 2 Service - is that what this could do is roll ack 3 successes that we've had in trying to put disconnects 4 at a readily accessible location. 5 We have had great success in recently getting 6 the emergency disconnect for the utility on the 7 outside of one and two family homes. This could 8 eliminate the possibility of putting that disconnect 9 on the outside. That's going backwards. 10 The other comment that I'm going to make is 11 that on the Panel, this passed by a 17 to 1 vote. The 12 fact that we are even here discussing this almost 13 means why do we spend our time on code-making panels, 14 when one person can bring us to a vote of hundreds of 15 people that are not even involved the code-making 16 panel, and the hundreds of hours of discussions. I 17 urge you to vote no on this. Thank you. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. And standing in 19 order at the microphone - microphone two again. 20 FRED HARTWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fred 21 Hartwell, speaking for myself, and speaking against 22 the motion. 23 In this case, I'm, I'm sorry - I disagree with 24 the motion's submitter on this one. I don't think 25 this quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, or does

621 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 anything else like a duck. I don't think it's a 2 service disconnect. It's not necessary to call it a 3 service disconnect, in order to meet the safety 4 objectives; and we are in Chapter 7 of the code. I 5 think that Panel 4 is well within its rights, and 6 within the, the commonly understood function of these, 7 to create this requirement. 8 As I said, I, I, I do have a serious technical 9 quibble with the outcome of the prior action that we 10 took - well, the - and which is why I changed my vote 11 on it from this Electrical Section until - to tonight. 12 But in this case, it's, it's not necessary to do that. 13 I think that we should support Panel 4 on this one. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. Thank you. 15 Microphone number four, please. 16 TIM CROUSHORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Tim 17 Croushore, representative of the electric utility 18 industry, as a consultant to the Edison Electric 19 Institute. Call your attention to the second to the 20 last sentence -- 21 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Are you speaking for or 22 against the motion, please? 23 TIM CROUSHORE: My apologies. Speaking for the 24 motion. 25 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you.

622 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 TIM CROUSHORE: Pay particular attention to the 2 second to the last sentence. You have service 3 conductors. You have service. This disconnect is 4 connected to the service conductors, with nothing in 5 between. This is a service disconnecting means. 6 Okay? By the definition that they're putting in the 7 next to the last sentence, that's exactly what this 8 is. So - and I appreciate Mr. Pace's requirements; 9 vehemently all through the process, we have been 10 against not calling this a service disconnecting 11 means. We have been trying to push all the 12 requirements of Part 6 of Article 230, which covers 13 Article 230-70, 71, 72, all the way through 86 - which 14 is the firefighter disconnect map. 15 So everything that you see is all included. 16 All we're saying is this is a service disconnecting 17 means. If you don't call this a service disconnecting 18 means, the firefighters can't deal with that section 19 in 230-86. So to have a single disconnecting means 20 for one and two family dwellings, this has to be 21 considered as a service disconnecting means. Thank 22 you. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 24 further discussion on Motion 70-46 to Accept an 25 Identifiable Part of Public Comment 315? Mr.

623 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Johnston, do you have any final comment? 2 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Mr. 3 Chair. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 5 let we restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 6 to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No. 7 315. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish 8 to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 9 text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote 10 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 11 Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 12 The voting will close in five seconds. 13 The voting is closed. 14 The results of the ballot is: 246 in favor of 15 the motion; 132 opposed to the motion. The motion has 16 passed. 17 Now let's proceed to the discussion on 18 Certified Amending Motion 70-47. Microphone four, 19 please. 20 HOWARD HERNDON: Howard Herndon, representing 21 PEARL for Motion 70-47, Reject Second Revision 7517. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 23 on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 7517. Is 24 there a second? 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second.

624 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 2 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 3 HOWARD HERNDON: Quickly, we feel this is new 4 material, and we feel this is a broad brush, sweeping 5 requirement that is not necessary; and some of this 6 equipment is reconditionable. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 8 would you like to offer the Panel's position. 9 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The 10 NEC Correlating Committee reviewed the complete record 11 of both public input and comments to ensure there was 12 no new material being introduced. The conclusion was 13 that no new material related to either the definition, 14 or the rules related to it, was introduced. There are 15 no apparent conflicts or correlation issues. I would 16 like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 13, Linda 17 Little, at microphone three for some technical 18 response 19 LINDA LITTLE: Thank you. My name is Linda 20 Little. I'm the Chairman of Code Panel 3. I 21 represent IBEW, and I speak in opposition to the 22 motion. We - anybody on the panel had ample 23 opportunity to discuss this issue. Several 24 manufacturers are represented on the Panel. I ask you 25 to reject this - I - and support the Panel action.

625 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Thank you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 3 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 4 name, affiliation, and whether you're speaking in 5 support, or against the motion. Microphone two, 6 please. 7 BARRY RODGERS: I am Barry Rodgers. I 8 represent Schneider Electric. We are against this 9 motion. 10 We support the action by the Code Panel to 11 include this language. Safety is the major reason to 12 adopt these changes. For the reasons already been 13 noted, these devices should not be reconditioned. I 14 urge you to vote against this motion. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone six, 16 please. 17 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Yes. My name is Thomas 18 Domitrovich. I am with Eaton, and I'm speaking 19 against this position - or the motion on the table. I 20 think my little run back here gave me a - a - my 21 second breath. 22 These changes identify those devices that are 23 not designed, nor expected to be taken apart in the 24 field and put back together, should they reach a state 25 that they need to be restored to an operating

626 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 condition. If they no longer function, they cannot be 2 reconditioned, or refurbished. They should be 3 replaced. These are safety items. 4 We should continue to support the actions of 5 the Panels, and continue to reject these motions that 6 seek to remove the - the, the ability to - remove the, 7 the allowance of reconditioning this equipment. Thank 8 you. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 10 further discussion on Motion 70-47 to Reject Second 11 Revision No. 7517? Mr. Johnston, do you have any 12 final comments? 13 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 14 Thank you. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 16 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 17 to Reject Second Revision No. 7517. To vote, touch 18 the 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of 19 the motion, and recommend the text on the screen, 20 touch 'One' - or touch 'Yes'. Let me reread that. 21 If you wish to vote in support of the motion, 22 and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If 23 you wish to vote against the motion, and recommend the 24 text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please record your 25 vote. Sorry about that.

627 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 The voting will close in five seconds. 2 The voting is closed. 3 The results of the ballot are: 12 in favor of 4 the motion; 356 against the motion. The motion has 5 failed. 6 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 7 Certified Amending Motion 70-48. Microphone four, 8 please. 9 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 10 International, speaking for NAFRA, and I move to 11 Accept Public Comment 501. 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There's a motion 13 on the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 501. Is 14 there a second? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I believe I got my second 17 there. Correct? Okay. We do have a second. Please 18 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 19 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: First of all, we're moving 20 into something completely different, nothing to do 21 with anything that we've been dealing with. We're 22 moving basically to fire testing to plenum cables. 23 This motion is intended to help in the 24 usability of the code for most users. We all know 25 that the requirements for wiring in ducts and plenums

628 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 is the same in Articles 725, 760, 770, 800, which now 2 becomes 805, 820, 830, and 40. 3 Therefore, using the same terms is what's most 4 helpful to the user, and will improve the usability of 5 the code. 6 Panel 3's responsible for Articles 725 and 760, 7 which are some of the articles dealing plenums and 8 ducts. Panel 16's responsible Article 770, and the - 9 all Articles in Chapter Eight, the remaining Articles 10 deal with plenums and ducts. 11 Many years ago, Standards Council stated that 12 NFPA 90A was the committee with jurisdiction over 13 requirements for materials, including wires and cables 14 in ducts and plenums, and that the NEC has to be 15 consistent with 90A. I'm a member of 90 - of course, 16 I'm not speaking for the Committee. 17 Article 770 and 800 from Chapter Eight, where 18 800 combined, combined the previous 800, now 805, 820, 19 830, 840, have tables in Section 154, with the same 20 information as the, as the table that we're 21 discussing. The discrepancies in the lines addressing 22 exposed to the airflow, instead of noting the actual 23 location - fabricated ducts or plenums, which in the 24 NEC we call spaces used for environmental air. 25 Article 725 and 760 talk about exposed to the

629 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 air flow, instead of stating the actual location, like 2 every other line in the table, and like the tables in 3 other relevant (unintelligible) tables. You can't see 4 on the screen, but if you look at the Agenda, you can 5 see it. 6 This is an inconsistency. It means the user 7 may be confused as to whether tables in the various 8 articles mean the same. Cables are exposed to air 9 flow in all other locations, including risers, trays, 10 shaft, and so on. NFPA 90A, which is where we should 11 really look for, does not use the term exposed to the 12 air flow, other than when dealing with removal of 13 abandoned cable; does not use the phrase for 14 (unintelligible) for cable fire test requirements. 15 You will hear that this is not - it is not 16 essential that terms in 735 and 60 be aligned with the 17 Articles from Ballot 16. It's true. But having 18 alignment is helpful to the user, and not alignment is 19 not helpful. You will hear the terms fabricated 20 ducts, and other space (unintelligible) air, already 21 in the first (unintelligible) column. But the issue 22 is that the language should be consistent within 23 articles. Column in the table talk about where the 24 cables are. 25 There is no argument, adding consistency will

630 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 create more usability to the code, and not cause any 2 problem. It is important that we make the code more 3 user friendly. Thank you. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 5 would you like to offer the Panel's position? 6 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 7 were no correlating issues or conflicts identified by 8 the Correlating Committee, and I'd like to defer to 9 the Chair of Code Panel 3, Robert Jones, at microphone 10 three, please. 11 ROBERT JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My 12 name is Robert Jones. I represent Independent 13 Electrical Contractors. I am Chairman of Panel 3. 14 And on behalf of Panel 3, I am speaking against this 15 motion. 16 Public Comment 501 was rejected by Panel 3 17 because the phrase 'exposed to air flow' is 18 explanatory, as well as descriptive. The definition 19 is not necessary to understand that cables installed 20 in fabricated ducts will be exposed to air flow. 21 I ask all voting members to vote against this, 22 this motion, in support of Panel 3. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we 24 will open up the debate on the motion. Please provide 25 your name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking

631 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 in support, or against the motion. Microphone five, 2 please. 3 GEORGE STRANIERO: George Straniero, AFC Cable 4 Systems, speaking in favor of the motion; member of 5 Panel 398 but speaking on the behalf of myself. 6 If you look at all the application tables in 7 725, 760, 770 and 800, they're - they're all 8 consistent, in terms of the application and the 9 headings. Exposed to the air flow that was put in for 10 725 and 760 is out of context with the other 11 application tables, and out of context with the 12 applications stated in those tables themselves. And 13 those tables, it's - the applications are listed as - 14 in a raceway, in a fireproof shaft, in a cable tray. 15 The application that's being described is actually in 16 a fabricated duct, and that's the language that should 17 be included in the table - not exposed to airflow. 18 Thank you. 19 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone four, 20 please. 21 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 22 International for NAFRA, and in support. 23 Again, the - you did not hear from the Chairman 24 of the, of the Panel, anything that is wrong with 25 making the change to improve the usability of the

632 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 code. You just heard that the Committee didn't like 2 it, but for no apparent reason. The - that - you 3 heard from George Straniero that consistency is to 4 make the change, please. Thank you. 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 6 further discussion on Motion 70-48 to Accept Public 7 Comment No. 501? Mr. Johnston, do you have any final 8 comment? 9 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Nothing further, Mr. Chair. 10 Thank you. 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 12 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 13 to Accept Public Comment No. 501. To vote, touch the 14 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 15 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 16 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 17 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 18 record your vote. 19 The voting will close in five seconds. 20 The voting is closed. 21 The results are 192 in favor of the motion; 123 22 against the motion. The motion has passed. 23 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 24 Certified Amending Motion 70-49. Microphone four, 25 please.

633 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 2 International, speaking for NAFRA, and in support of 3 the motion. 4 This is identical to what (unintelligible) 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I'm sorry, Marcelo. You 6 have to make the motion first. 7 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Excuse me. I move - Accept 8 Public Comment 500. I apologize. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I can't pick on you. My 10 daughter would kill me. 11 (laughter) 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: So there is a motion on the 13 floor to Accept Public Comment No. 500. Is there a 14 second? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 17 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 18 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: I apologize one more time. 19 Marcelo Hirschler, GBH International, speaking for 20 NAFRA, in support of the motion. 21 This motion is identical to the one we just 22 voted on. This is on Article 60. The other one was 23 Article 725. No other difference. Thank you. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 25 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please?

634 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. No 2 correlating issues or conflicts were identified by the 3 Correlating Committee. And I'd like to defer to the 4 Chair of Code Panel 3, Robert Jones, at microphone 5 number three, please. 6 ROBERT JONES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My 7 name is Robert Jones. I'm representing Independent 8 Electrical Contractors. I am Chairman of Panel 3. 9 And I speak on behalf of Panel 3, in opposition to 10 this, this motion. 11 But I also agree this is the same as the 12 previous motion. The Panel acted the same way, with 13 the same Panel Statement. 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 15 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 16 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 17 support of, or against the motion. Microphone five, 18 please. 19 GEORGE STRANIERO: George Straniero, ARC Cable 20 Systems, speaking in support. My same comments I 21 mentioned previously apply here, as well. Thanks. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 23 further discussion on Motion 70-49 to Accept a Public 24 Comment No. 500? Microphone five. 25 DYAN ALECUMEN (phonetic): Dyan Alecumen,

635 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 speaking in favor of the motion. I just wanted to 2 bring to the attention that the number on the board up 3 there says 725, and we're discussing 760. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. 5 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Mr. Chairman, yeah - it, it 6 should state 760 on all four -- 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: You are correct. 8 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: -- screens. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: You are correct. Okay? 10 Noted. Is there any further discussion on Motion 70- 11 49 to Accept a - Public Comment No. 500? Mr. 12 Johnston, any final comment? 13 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: No further comments, Mr. 14 Chair. Thank you. 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 16 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 17 to Accept Public Comment No. 500. To vote, touch the 18 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 19 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 20 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 21 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 22 record your vote. 23 The voting will close in five seconds. 24 The voting is closed. 25 The results are: 219 in favor of the motion;

636 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 90 against the motion. Therefore, the motion has 2 passed. 3 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 4 Certified Amending Motion 70-50. Microphone four, 5 please. 6 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. I'm Chris Hunter 7 with Serra Wire. Id make a - like to make a Motion to 8 Reject Section Revision 7509. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a 10 motion on the floor to Reject Second Revision No. 11 7509. Is there a second? 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 14 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 15 CHRIS HUNTER: Thank you. I'm Chris Hunter, 16 with Serra Wire, in support of the motion. 17 Like in earlier motions, this language appeared 18 in the Second Draft. It was not based on any similar 19 language, or requirement that was considered in the 20 First Draft. 21 Communications equipment is frequently 22 reconditioned, and a new label is added. However, 23 this requirement would require the removal of the 24 original listing mark, which is unnecessary, and may 25 result to damage to the equipment. Thank you.

637 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 2 would you like to offer the Panel's position, please. 3 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. Since 4 the new material issue was brought up again, the same 5 statement is in order. 6 The NEC Correlating Committee did review the 7 complete record of public comments and inputs to 8 ensure that no new material was being introduced. 9 Nothing was identified; no holds were place. The 10 Correlating Committee concluded that there was no new 11 material related to either the definition of 12 reconditioned, or any new rules related to it. There 13 were no apparent conflicts or correlation issue. I'd 14 like to defer to the Chair of Code Panel 16, Thomas 15 Moore. He's at microphone three, please. 16 TOM MOORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name 17 is Tom Moore, representing the International 18 Association of Electrical Inspectors, as Chair of CMP 19 16, speaking in opposition of the motion on the floor. 20 CMP 16 acted on Global Public Comment 979, 21 thereby creating Second Revision 7509. CMP 16 22 reviewed, and affirmed with the Correlating Committee 23 that this was not new material. 24 As indicated in the Panel's Committee 25 Statement, there are certain types of communication

638 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 equipment covered in Chapter 8 that may be 2 reconditioned. Furthermore, during the discussions, 3 it is clear that reconditioning of certain types of 4 communications equipment has been performed under 5 recognized product standards for many years. By 6 virtue of NEC 90.3, Chapter 8 is a standalone chapter, 7 and 110.21(A)(2) would not be applicable if not 8 referenced in new 800.3(G), other articles. Thank 9 you. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 11 open up the debate on the motion. Please provide your 12 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 13 support, and/or against the motion. Microphone three. 14 THOMAS DOMITROVICH: Thomas Domitrovich with 15 Eaton. I continue to speak against the motion that's 16 on the floor. I would ask everyone else to do the 17 same. Thank you. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. Thank you. I'm not 19 seeing anyone at a microphone. Is there any further 20 discussion of Motion 70-50 to Reject a Second Revision 21 7509? Mr. Johnston, do you have any final comment? 22 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have no additional 23 comments, Mr. Chair. Thank you. 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 25 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is

639 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 to Reject Second Revision 7509. To vote, touch the 2 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 3 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 4 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 5 recommend the text on Screen Two, touch 'No'. Please 6 record your vote. 7 The voting will close in five seconds. 8 The voting is closed. 9 The results of the vote are: 11 in favor of 10 the motion: 337 against the motion. The motion has 11 failed. 12 Now let's proceed with the discussion on 13 Certified Amending Motion 70-51. Microphone four, 14 please. 15 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Marcelo Hirschler, GBH 16 International for NAFRA, and I move to Accept Public 17 Comment No. 516, please. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There, there is 19 a motion on the floor to Accept Public Comment No. 20 516. Is there a second? 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 22 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 23 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 24 MARCELO HIRSCHLER: Thank you. Marcelo 25 Hirschler, GBH International, speaking for NAFRA, and

640 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 in support of the motion. 2 This is a very simple motion. I don't know if 3 it was because of the, of the Panel, or because of 4 staff or whatever. The date of the ASTM E84 Standard 5 was not updated to (unintelligible) in the comment. 6 So all this is doing is just simply update the date of 7 the ASTM E84 Standard to the one that was at the time 8 that the comment was submitted. Thank you. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Mr. Johnston, 10 would you like to state the Panel's position, please. 11 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. No 12 correlation issues or conflicts were identified by the 13 NEC Correlating Committee. And I would defer to the 14 Chair of Code Panel 16, Thomas Moore, for an 15 additional response. 16 TOM MOORE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name's 17 Tom Moore, representing the International Association 18 of Electric Inspectors, a Chair of CMP 16, speaking in 19 favor of the motion on the floor. 20 It gets a little bit confusing, but First 21 Revision 8014 was created at the First Draft meeting 22 by updating ASTM E8(4), 15(A) to 17(A), and 23 Informational Note No. 1 to 800.182(A). 24 Additionally, during the First Draft Meeting, 25 Article 800 became General Requirements to

641 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Communication Systems, and the existing Article 800 2 Communication Circuits become new Article 805. 3 During the Second Draft meeting, CMP 16 took 4 action based on Public Comment 516, also by the 5 submitter of this related NITMAM, to update ASTM E84 6 17(A) to 18(A), and 805.182(A), Information Note One. 7 Second Revision 7746 encompassed said revision 8 along with relocating all of Article 805-182 to the 9 General Requirements Article under 800-182. 10 As part of the relocation, the updated 11 reference did not appear in the Second Draft Report. 12 As indicated in the actions taken, it was the intent 13 of CMP 16 that Information Note Number One to 182, 14 800-182(A) reference ASTM E18(A). 15 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 16 open up the debate on this motion. Please provide 17 your name, affiliation, whether you are speaking in 18 support of, or against the motion. Microphone four, 19 please. 20 JOHN KOVACHIC: Thank you, Mr. Chair. John 21 Kovachic, UL LLC, speaking on behalf of the Electrical 22 Section of NFPA as its official representative, and 23 speaking for the motion. The Electrical Section had 24 its business meeting on Tuesday of this week, and the 25 Section voted to support this motion.

642 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I ask the members of this body to vote in favor 2 of this motion. Thank you. 3 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 4 further discussion on Motion 70-51 to Accept a Public 5 Comment No. 516? Mr. Johnston, do you have any final 6 comments? 7 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Mr. 8 Chair. Thank you. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 10 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 11 to Accept Public Comment No. 516. To vote, touch the 12 'vote' button. If you wish to vote in support of the 13 motion, and recommend the text on Screen One, touch 14 'Yes'. If you wish to vote against the motion, and 15 recommend the text on Screen Two, text - touch 'No'. 16 Please record your vote. 17 The voting will close in five seconds. 18 The voting is closed. 19 The results of the motion is 328 in favor of 20 the motion; 9 against the motion. The motion has 21 passed. 22 And before I read the last ballot, I know there 23 may be a reaction from you. So I'm going to have a 24 few more things to tell you what to do with your iPad, 25 and how to turn it in. So please, let, let's get

643 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 through the motion, then just bear with me for two 2 minutes, I promise. I just need to give you some 3 direction before you head towards the back of the 4 room. 5 So now let's proceed with the discussion of 6 Certified Amending Motion 70-52. Microphone five? 7 JIM WIESE: Yes, Sir. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. 9 JIM WIESE: Yes, Sir. Good evening. My name 10 is Jim Wiese with ADTRAN, Incorporated. I'm here to 11 make a Motion to Accept Public Comment 2147. 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. There is a 13 motion on the floor to Accept an Identifiable Part of 14 Public Comment 2147. Is there a second? 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: We do have a second. Please 17 proceed with the discussion on the motion. 18 JIM WIESE: My name is Jim Wiese with ADTRAN, 19 and I'm requesting support to accept this minor 20 clarification, so that there is not multiple, 21 conflicting interpretations. 22 This clarification is only intended to reduce 23 interpretative confusion. It is extremely important 24 to convey that there's no request to change anything 25 technically from the status quo that has been in place

644 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 as long as Chapter 8 has existed, and for well over a 2 hundred years of telecommunication service deployment 3 and practices. 4 I would like to note that this proposal is 5 identical to PC 128 from Bill McCoy, who I worked 6 with, along with representatives from Telcordia, AT&T, 7 Verizon, Century Link, Addis, and IEEE TSTC Committee. 8 Unfortunately, the rejection of the public comments on 9 this subject was based on the belief that service 10 providers were asking to do something new with utility 11 outside plant entrance cables. However, that was 12 never the issue. What we really were trying to 13 clarify is that no technical change was actually made 14 in the First Revision. The stated rationale for 15 adding listed in accordance with 805-179 was for a 16 totally different reason of reinforcing the existing 17 listing requirements on premises communications 18 cables, particularly on listed land cables - not 19 removing communications powering on entrance cables, 20 as that was not the purpose. 21 The common and historical accurate 22 interpretation of this has no problem, as 805, 804-48, 23 utility entrance cables are not required to be listed 24 up to 50 feet into the building. They are exempted 25 from the 805-179 listing requirements. So the

645 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 sentence in 841-60 is not even applicable to those 2 cables that are in 841 - 4 - 548. 3 However, another valid but unintended 4 interpretation was raised, and resulted in the public 5 comment. That interpretation is that the code for the 6 first time is removing, for some unknown reason, the 7 ability of these cables to have powering aspect. But 8 this only applies if the signals are broadband and the 9 electrons flow from the customer's listed device, 10 rather than from the network. However, this would be 11 inconsistent with precedent, and other articles in 12 800. 13 Even if the motion fails, the service providers 14 will just continue to use the first interpretation as 15 the historical precedent, and a legitimate 16 interpretation. The proposal just eliminates 17 potential confusion and difficulties for the service 18 providers and AHJ. Putting all else aside, from a 19 practical standpoint, there's no way an AHJ is going 20 to figure out if a - if 200 pair, unlisted 840.48 21 utilities outside by (unintelligible) cable has pairs 22 with powering communications circuits, and then 23 determine which way the electrons are flowing, and 24 then determine if the signal is broadband. 25 Accepting this proposal removes the unclarity -

646 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 no more, and no less. So I respectfully ask the 2 positive vote for this proposal, as it creates nothing 3 new, in no way changes anything in terms of electrical 4 safety, provides clarification, reduces confusion, and 5 as a result improves the usability and consistent 6 application of the code. 7 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Your time has 8 expired, but thank you. Mr. Johnston, do you have any 9 comments from the Panel? 10 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: Thank you, Mr. Chair. There 11 were no correlating issues or conflicts identified by 12 the Correlating Committee, and I'd like to defer to 13 the Chair of Code Panel 16, Tom Moore, and I believe 14 he's at microphone three, please. 15 TOM MOORE: Thank you. My name is Tom Moore. 16 I represent the International Association of 17 Electrical Inspectors, as Chair of CMP 16. We're 18 speaking in opposition of the motion on the floor. 19 During the Second Draft meeting, CMP 16 heard 20 two public comments - 128 and 169, recommending that 21 the phrase, covered in 800 - 840.48, and those. CMP 22 16 rejected both of the public comments, as the use of 23 unlisted outside plant cables for providing power is a 24 new concept to 840.160, and had no benefit - or no 25 benefit of public review.

647 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 This language may be in other Chapter 8 2 articles, but it is new material for 840.160. Thank 3 you. 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. With that, we'll 5 open the debate on the motion. Please provide your 6 name, affiliation, and whether you are speaking in 7 support of, or against the motion. Microphone five, 8 please. 9 JOEL GORGAN (phonetic): My name is Joel 10 Gorgan, and I'm a Fellow with Cisco Systems. I speak 11 in favor of this motion. 12 The 840.48 reference to unlisted outside plant 13 cable has been in place since broadband copper was 14 added in this section definition. This was and is 15 accepted practice. Outside plant wiring has different 16 requirements for extreme outdoor use than, than inside 17 listed wiring does. 18 And I feel to see in the change of this 19 sectional draft, because the, the sections were, were 20 renumbered, so it was really difficult to follow and 21 add additional comment. There's a huge insulation 22 base, without any known issues recorded. And I'd like 23 to reiterate that. There is a huge insulation base 24 without any known issues recorded. There's no reason 25 to burden installers and owners to change this. The

648 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 common interpretation is that 840.160, listed in 2 accordance with the 805.179, does not apply at all to 3 entrance cables, as they are not listed, in accordance 4 with 805.179, and thus exempt 804 - can't talk - 5 805.48. 6 So again, understanding all of this, and 7 looking at all this information, please support this 8 motion. Thank you. 9 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone two, 10 please. 11 JOHN KOVACHIC: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. John 12 Kovachic, UL LLC, speaking on behalf of the Electrical 13 Section of NFPA as its official representative, and 14 speaking against the motion. 15 The Electrical Section had its business meeting 16 on Tuesday of this week, and at that meeting, the 17 Section voted not - not to support this motion. I ask 18 the members of this body to vote against the motion on 19 the floor. Thank you. 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five, 21 please. 22 ERNIE GALLO (phonetic): Hello. My name is 23 Ernie Gallo. I sit on the National Electrical Code 24 Correlating Code, Code-Making Panels 1, 5, and I also 25 sit on the National Electrical Safety Code, although

649 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 I'm not here representing those groups. I am 2 representing the Alliance of Telecommunications 3 Solutions, and I support the motion. 4 The revision proposed will assist -- 5 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Excuse me. Are you speaking 6 in -- 7 ERNIE GALLO: I am - I support the motion. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 9 ERNIE GALLO: The, the revision will assist in 10 correlation, clarity, and usability of the code. 11 There's a hundred year history to support this CAM. 12 The original customer premise power was a hand cranked 13 phone, way back in the 1800s, with a magneto. So the 14 customer premise power is nothing new. I remember 15 when the electric power in my house went out when I 16 was a child, the phone would still work because there 17 was network power. So there's been power over those 18 cables, the, the drop cables that, that we're talking 19 about here. And electrons really don't worry which 20 way they flow. 21 The cables in question are drop cables that 22 come from either a pole, or aerial, or buried cables. 23 They are 300 volts. They have a, a fuse link on them. 24 So there's many safety brought into them. The signal 25 and power over these cables are what they call SELV,

650 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 or extra safety low voltage. So they're basically 2 touch safe, with very low voltage and current levels. 3 The cables are also covered the National Electrical 4 Safety Code. So there's a lot of things looking at 5 these cables. 6 The terminal equipment is listed by a 7 nationally recognized test lab. The terminal 8 equipment historically has also been covered by FCC 9 Part 68, as a result of the Carterfone Decision. And 10 what that was - at one time, you could only get your 11 telephones and other equipment from Ma Bell. The FCC 12 said that other people can connect their equipment, as 13 long as they meet certain criteria, and the criteria 14 was that the terminal equipment not cause harm to the 15 network. So terminal equipment is regulated, as well. 16 There have been no safety issues raised, no 17 documentation, no report to indicate any safety issues 18 that would not support this motion. Acceptance of 19 this motion will assist in bringing high speed, 20 broadband services to underserved areas in the United 21 States, which is very important. Thank you. Please 22 support this motion. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five, 24 please. 25 KURT SEELIGER: Thank you. I'd like to

651 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 officially welcome everyone to Friday morning. 2 (laughter) 3 KURT SEELIGER: I am -- 4 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I'd rather have your name, 5 and your motion, or your statement on it, please. 6 (laughter) 7 KURT SEELIGER: Yeah. I'm Kurt Seeliger of 8 AT&T, representing AT&T, speaking in support of the 9 motion. 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. 11 KURT SEELIGER: Communications power has been 12 safely sourced from premises over unlisted cables for 13 decades by communications utilities. Examples include 14 off premise extensions, and T carrier systems, where 15 the requirements of 2017 NEC Section 800.48 and 840.48 16 are followed. Please vote in favor of the motion. 17 Thank you. 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. I'm going to - 19 I'm going to go one more time at microphone five, 20 because you had a - you had a line of about four 21 people, and then I'll come over to you. 22 GEORGE ZIMMERMAN: Thank you. I'm George 23 Zimmerman with CME Consulting, and I'm speaking in 24 favor of the motion. I'm a member of Code-Making 25 Panel 3, and a Technical Committee Chair for the

652 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 Ethernet Alliance, but I'm speaking for myself. 2 Many of the points have already been made, so 3 I, I'm going to be very, very brief. I don't really 4 have a dog in this fight, but I do not want someone 5 else's dog to become roadkill because of things I'm 6 interested in. 7 The genesis of this listed language in 841.60 8 came out of the POE Task Group after the 2017 code was 9 put together. We put it in there because we were 10 thinking about unlisted land cables. We forgot about 11 the unlisted cables that come in from the service 12 provider. As you have heard, and actually as my 13 personal experience has been, these are not new in 14 carrying power. The confusion that's been generated 15 by the new language there makes one think that power 16 isn't allowed over those cables. And this CAM simply 17 seeks to correct that confusion. 18 I, I urge you to support this CAM, as well as, 19 in this case, it's supporting the really good work 20 that the Panel did to clean up 841.60, and prevent 21 this unintended consequence from causing confusion and 22 tarnishing that. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five. 24 STANLEY COPPIN (phonetic): This is six. 25 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, I'm - I thought you

653 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 were taking a negative. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I - They've been standing 3 there, for - you just walked up. 4 STANLEY COPPIN: I'm taking a negative. I'm at 5 six. 6 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I called five. 7 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Microphone five. 9 JOEL GORGAN: Mr. Chairman, I'm Joel Gorgan 10 with Cisco Systems, and I speak again in favor of this 11 motion. I'd like to point out that there has been a 12 considerable amount of work that's done here. And as 13 Jim pointed out when he introduced the, the CAM, the 14 material isn't new. It's always been there. It was 15 added in two code cycles back in, in 840 - 16 unintentionally, intentionally, it doesn't matter; 17 it's in there. 18 And in terms of that reference, I'd just like 19 to point out that, that we've been powering over these 20 communication cables for some time. And again, 21 they're unlisted; they're coming in from the outside. 22 They're only coming in a little - as - by definition, 23 in 15 meters, right. And we've been doing this 24 successfully, as you heard from my past colleagues, 25 for a number of years. So again, I speak in favor of

654 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 the motion. Thank you. 2 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Now microphone 3 six, please. 4 STANLEY COPPIN: My name is Stanley Coppin. 5 I'm a member of Panel 16; have been for a long time. 6 I'm speaking in opposition to the motion. 7 I'd like to clarify that Article 840 is 8 premises powered broadband. It was first introduced 9 into the 2011 code. And why is it premises powered? 10 Because it had no power coming in on a cable. It was 11 an optical fiber cable, cables I'd like to call a no 12 voltage cable. But the next cycle, we stayed only 13 with optical fiber cable. And only in the last cycle, 14 broadened how the signals can come in. But the, the 15 whole concept is, the power is not coming in on the 16 cable. I'm not suggesting that they're wrong about 17 powering over cables, but they're in the wrong 18 article. This article does not bring in power on the 19 cable; it provides it on the premises. 20 In addition, the, the articles that have 21 traditionally, have provided power, have provided very 22 low power. Panel 16 has an Article 830, where they 23 provide for a higher level of network powering, and 24 frankly, the Panel requires a listed cable there. So 25 at some point of powering, we require a listed cable.

655 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Microphone five, 2 please. 3 BILL MCCOY: Yes. I'm Bill McCoy. I'm an 4 independent telecommunications consultant, and a 5 member of Panel 16. I speak in favor of this motion. 6 Mention was made that we should be using 7 Article 830. 830, if you look at the title and the 8 scope of it, it is network powered broadband 9 communications systems. That means the power is 10 coming from the network, rather than the premises. 11 Article 840 is power that could come from the 12 premises. 13 All this CAM is trying to do is provide 14 clarification on an established procedure for 15 installing outside plant communications cable. I'd 16 ask that you vote in favor of this motion. 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Is there any 18 further discussion on Motion 70-52 to Accept an 19 Identifiable Part of a Public Comment No. 2147? Mr. 20 Johnston, do you have any final comments? 21 MICHAEL JOHNSTON: I have nothing further, Mr. 22 Chair. Thank you. 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Thank you. Before we vote, 24 let me restate the motion. The motion on the floor is 25 to Accept an Identifiable Part of Public Comment No.

656 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 2147. To vote, touch the 'vote' button. If you wish 2 to vote in support of the motion, and recommend the 3 text on Screen One, touch 'Yes'. If you wish to vote 4 against the motion, and recommend the text on Screen 5 Two, touch 'No'. Please record your vote. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) vote 7 (unintelligible). 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's not working. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's not registering. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No. 11 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It doesn't work. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: It expired at midnight. 15 (laughter) 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Hang on. 17 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 18 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: What? 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: All right. Let's just - let 21 - I'm going to do a hand vote. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: So I have a feeling I know 24 where this is going to go. So if you are in favor of 25 the motion - and I'll restate the motion, since I'm

657 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 going to do a hand vote. 2 The motion before you is to Accept an 3 Identifiable Part of the Public Comment No. 2147. And 4 if you are in favor of that motion, please raise your 5 hand. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) should 7 stand. 8 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: If you are opposed to that 9 motion, please raise your hand. Oh, God. 10 (laughter) 11 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: I think it - it think it's 12 opposed, but I've got to get a count. Sorry. 13 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 14 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: It's, it's, it's not as 15 clean -- 16 (laughter) 17 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Ya let me down. 18 (laughter) 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS: (unintelligible) 20 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: You want to do it as a -- 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Call the question. 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, (unintelligible). 23 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Okay. We're going to try 24 Round Two. We're going to pretend this is a call the 25 question, and see if this works.

658 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 So we're going to change the application of the 2 motion to the call the question on your iPad. So if 3 you scroll down to the bottom - if you want to vote in 4 favor of the motion, which would be Screen One for the 5 call the question vote, I want you to touch 'Yes'. If 6 you want to oppose the motion, which would be Screen 7 Two, I want you to touch 'No'. Please record your 8 vote. 9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 10 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Voting will close in five 11 seconds. This is working. 12 (laughter) 13 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: The voting is closed. 14 (applause) 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Woo-hoo. 16 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: The results of - the results 17 of the motion is that 100 were in favor if the motion; 18 21 to - of Motion 70-52; 233 against. The motion has 19 failed. 20 Is there any further discussion on NFPA 70? 21 Seeing none, we will move on. Thank you, Mr. 22 Johnston. 23 (applause) 24 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: Before I close, if you can 25 pull out your voting tablet. To log out, I'm going to

659 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com

1 give you some instructions. It's going to save us a 2 whole bunch of time in getting you out of this hall. 3 To log out of the iPads, press the On-Off icon 4 near the name at the top left. The Log-Off prompt 5 should appear. In the Log-Off code, enter 1218. I'll 6 repeat it. In the Log-Off code, enter 1218, then 7 press Log-Off. Good. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (unintelligible) 9 (laughter) 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, really 11 (unintelligible) 12 JAMES GOLINVEAUX: This officially concludes 13 the 2019 NFPA Technical Meeting. I want to thank you 14 for your participation, interest and support. I now 15 declare the 2019 Technical Meeting officially 16 adjourned. 17 (applause) 18 (MUSIC) 19 (END OF MEETING) 20 21 22 23 24 25

660 Audio Transcription June 20, 2019

Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 1

A 451:1 452:20,24 454:3 23:7,9,11 25:7,10 284:1,1,1,21 297:1,8 311:19 326:4 342:12 ABA 473:13 454:6 456:6,7,8,10 achieving 123:18 306:21 307:18 337:6 348:21 365:10 398:8 abandoned 630:13 457:16 458:6,9,9 acid 181:5 182:24 344:10 352:5 398:14 422:9 443:1,16 490:10 abandoning 579:8 461:13 463:22 464:4 190:18 196:21 207:15 430:8 434:14 459:13 491:19 547:25 557:24 abbreviation 508:24 465:11,14 468:11 213:10,18,21,25 214:7 459:18 463:25 467:19 558:9,22 559:3 577:1 abbreviations 506:7 471:20 473:6 475:22 214:9,19 215:21 217:7 467:23 469:3,12 577:13 586:9 605:11 507:4 476:15,18 478:9 479:9 217:17 218:10,12,21 496:18 500:25 502:5 addressed 54:21 59:19 Abernathy 10:21 509:16 479:16 481:10,13 218:25 219:4,6,13 519:23 559:1 616:24 59:22 61:2,3,5 64:25 509:17 510:5 484:25 492:17 493:3,9 222:14,23 224:10 648:21 162:3 174:6 224:6 abide 459:21 504:18,20 510:19 225:2,5,14 244:24 added 45:21,22 46:1,17 225:8 231:24 232:4 ability 57:25 59:3 186:3 511:5 529:24 549:2 245:8 257:1 262:11 54:1 67:7 68:13 69:23 237:21 239:12 258:3,7 242:2 488:17 529:18 560:15 567:7,13,17 275:3,23 282:8 288:14 82:19 113:16 134:16 264:10 275:5,14,18 616:12 618:19 627:6 573:3 575:4,7 583:20 288:22 135:6 140:20 141:2 280:13 287:12 310:19 646:7 661:7 603:25 612:11,14 ack 621:2 196:16 207:23 234:15 333:4 334:12 354:11 able 48:9 139:18 140:9 623:24 624:6 628:11 acknowledge 31:25 245:14 265:19,21,22 384:9 422:15 468:24 152:8 156:4 186:10 628:13 633:6,13 634:7 255:10 256:5 264:9 270:14 297:14 323:17 469:3 484:5 497:2 200:13 204:4 226:10 634:13 635:23 636:11 443:19 327:1 343:4 408:19,21 533:13 558:6 569:15 285:13 286:13 319:21 636:17 640:16,19 acknowledged 123:21 432:2 434:10,23 569:16 576:24 618:21 377:15 384:4 387:21 643:4,11 644:11,13,19 129:21 189:15 383:2 467:25 470:4 485:20 addresses 68:21 112:15 387:23 429:9,10 656:18,25 658:2 acknowledges 315:17 536:3 569:5 578:22 231:22 232:3 233:7 463:18 514:25 533:15 acceptable 123:9 140:10 acknowledging 189:13 617:25 637:22 648:14 238:14,16 244:16 542:2 570:6 580:2,12 143:4 219:16 261:1 acoustical 90:23,25 654:15 258:19 287:8 438:7 614:6 336:18 342:11 529:3 acronym 562:17 adding 100:21 111:9 446:13 455:10 aboard 88:22 acceptably 286:12 act 232:13 470:16 135:8 139:7,19 142:5 addressing 179:12 absence 32:1 517:9 acceptance 69:15,23 acted 15:10 63:23 277:3 233:7,10 239:21 191:19 235:16 310:12 529:9 283:10 651:18 298:21 415:14 635:12 266:21,23 284:17 327:9,21 358:11 434:6 absent 448:14 accepted 109:4 121:23 638:20 434:13 460:11 468:19 540:13 629:21 absolute 64:5 121:21 123:15,20 140:23 acting 300:4 550:7 468:21 470:1 479:3 adds 48:23 82:19 197:13 122:13 123:2 124:14 160:9 275:16 277:6,8 551:12 485:18 514:22 630:25 231:18 233:17 248:15 absolutely 57:5 68:10 277:9 318:15 319:8,12 action 15:9,13 19:8 645:15 284:4 366:13 605:17 91:3 196:25 197:2 422:12 473:5 498:3 58:15 67:21 121:8 Addis 645:7 adequate 64:3 135:23 236:22 336:19 448:11 528:13 529:1 648:15 123:21 145:23,23 Addison 146:9 148:12 167:4 187:22 458:18,23 463:13,19 accepting 142:24 149:25 179:21 193:15 195:12 addition 24:7,24 152:6 190:15 278:18 289:4 561:6 173:5 175:2 472:17 259:14,16 276:7 297:1 161:15 162:7 193:23 301:8 366:5 415:3 absten-- 63:5 646:25 316:2 326:7 329:5,20 246:13 275:4 326:24 434:6 abstention 62:6,9,12,17 Accepts 254:24 330:2 343:12 410:16 415:20 443:23 447:2 adequately 221:11 63:4,7 72:15,21 access 133:11 140:3 410:17 425:19 495:7 528:20 530:25 534:4 252:14 275:18 288:15 abuse 247:17 173:25 343:13,16,19 502:19 524:21 531:16 543:1,18 561:8 614:2 568:1 AC 248:7 375:3 558:13 348:8 350:1 432:22 568:21 585:19 587:23 655:20 adjourned 660:16 558:15 575:15 577:2,4 532:1 618:20,25 591:2 592:12 595:17 additional 69:11 88:4,6 adjournment 15:21 16:2 AC/60 259:19 accessed 89:21 622:9 625:25 626:10 88:25 111:10 129:1,23 36:19 37:2 accelerated 441:10 accessibility 387:12,18 642:4 661:10 130:14 131:16 135:1 adjustable 408:3 accelerating 151:18 388:1,6,9 actionable 284:6 136:8 141:3,14 150:6 adjustments 258:10 accept 37:19,21 40:8,10 accessible 578:20 614:8 actions 15:20 36:17 59:4 155:21 216:16 217:15 Administration 87:10 40:11 44:25 45:2,4,6 621:4 111:23 112:22 256:6 237:1,2 246:19 279:2 267:20 562:18 563:17 52:14,22 53:13 66:21 accident 214:15 445:13 297:19 317:24 327:9 284:1 285:12 315:7 564:1 571:22 66:25 70:6,13 72:18 accidental 161:15 446:8 404:24 435:1 531:11 338:16 343:13 360:3 Administrations 557:18 76:8 81:1 82:13 84:9 446:11 570:11 578:13 595:11 381:17 398:14 432:3 admire 377:10 86:9,12 91:18,23 accidentally 377:4 598:6 627:4 642:12 432:16 433:11 443:24 admit 285:20 478:23 92:15,18 94:20 95:1 accidents 165:5 281:17 activate 258:23 445:11 467:20 471:12 543:11 95:17,20 97:10,17 359:24 active 21:17 23:16,18 483:6 528:24 531:20 admitting 214:20 98:10,12 99:10,16 accommodate 42:12 276:6 553:4 557:5 568:4 adopt 68:17 83:6,9 140:9 100:8,10 101:7,12 181:22 actively 24:1 391:11 611:14 639:22 641:15 212:12 316:4 552:17 102:3,6 103:3,8,24 accomplish 219:8 610:5 activity 203:23 326:4 648:21 568:20 587:25 592:14 104:2,22 105:19 106:7 611:7 616:13,13 392:7 552:22 562:24 additionally 14:1 22:20 595:19 626:12 108:13,15,17,18 117:7 accomplished 278:5 acts 52:6 26:16 27:15 42:10 adoptability 209:8 117:8,17,18 133:24 account 204:3 actual 19:8 39:4 128:9 140:23 141:2 151:4 adoptable 83:23 134:1 135:2 137:22 accountable 149:23 136:22 163:5 214:22 179:24 243:25 641:24 adopted 68:14 83:2 138:3 170:9 178:1,3 accumulation 200:13 324:2 344:23 541:9 address 17:17 20:22 122:22 136:10 140:3 211:15 212:12,16 accuracy 383:5 568:18 629:22 630:1 23:21 24:9 89:15 153:15 178:25 180:11 225:19 226:19 231:5,8 accurate 236:17 237:3 AD067FA 1:22 150:15 166:13 187:23 219:25 286:19 318:19 233:16 239:15 240:11 239:6 267:5 645:21 adamant 615:20 616:19 213:15 215:25 216:20 357:22 364:3 441:25 241:18 254:23 255:1 accurately 111:12 adamantly 195:1 218:21,24 219:21 445:22 569:19 262:25 263:5 277:7,8 319:21 add 61:14 67:8 68:4 88:9 221:12,15 232:5 adopting 215:1 276:8 285:10 305:16 379:22 achievable 23:2 343:24 91:15 96:7,20 104:10 233:12 234:8 235:6 286:23 490:15 379:25 399:24 431:3,3 achieve 52:2,10 509:23 116:2 137:4 160:7 237:2 238:12 257:3,19 adoption 45:24 129:18 431:6,15 438:25 439:6 achieved 141:10 207:24 213:8 217:15 275:2,10 276:23 145:9 208:21 209:2 439:22,25 450:2,19 Achievement 21:7,8 222:12 232:24 275:25 280:15 281:19 286:9 226:15 288:11 393:6

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 2

568:21 294:12 299:3 401:10 air 31:4 112:3 160:18,18 Alston 4:12 119:24 537:11 540:9,23 adoptions 357:7 392:13 AGA 440:6 160:19 191:23 201:2 120:6,8,23 122:14,16 546:11 556:10 566:25 ADTRAN 644:10,18 AGA's 440:9 350:3 372:11,13,21 124:9,21 128:11,13 573:14,25 574:24 adult 560:3 again.' 427:2 373:15 375:19 471:8 131:15 132:11,12 584:7 589:18 593:12 advance 19:15 aged 344:25 486:17 522:12 629:24 altered 392:12 596:15 599:23 602:11 advanced 21:10 225:13 agencies 547:15 630:1,8,12,20 631:17 alternate 507:25 508:15 607:14 608:4 612:6 advancement 343:20,23 agency 205:1 213:24 631:20 632:9 608:11 614:25 624:18 628:7 advances 148:16 257:6 557:20 aircraft 32:9 87:3 214:12 alternative 33:6 34:1 633:24 637:4 640:13 384:15 agenda 14:8,10 17:4 214:14 303:10 447:6 529:22 602:25 644:6 advancing 21:2,4 19:5 42:6,7,15 43:9 airflow 629:22 632:17 615:15,16 616:5,10,25 amendment 15:22,25 adversely 55:10 60:3 65:19 66:4,8,14 85:11 Airport 31:14 32:15 620:3 16:1 36:20,25 42:21 advertised 389:21 107:14 120:4 128:1 aisles 76:13 altogether 465:25 186:2 215:1 283:16 advisable 487:18 130:17 132:25 134:11 Alan 2:23 9:16 27:23,23 554:21 350:15 362:8 540:5 advisory 116:10 483:12 144:17 145:15 146:14 28:1,13 367:21,21 aluminum 455:17 456:9 610:14 advocacy 393:5 158:12 169:10 176:21 421:23,23 422:7,7,25 458:21 459:14,17,19 amendments 83:2 advocate 21:19 199:19 227:13,19 alarm 12:22 13:1,3 29:19 460:7,12,22 461:1,6 357:10 620:7 aerial 650:22 228:6,11,19,25 229:8 32:13 33:15,18 35:16 461:14,20,22 462:8,8 America 49:19 56:16 AFC 488:10 527:25 229:14 264:14,19 35:19,22 68:14 70:3 462:9,23 465:24,24 63:16 176:16 294:13 528:11 532:21 535:5 293:4 340:6,11 480:15 279:23 466:9,9,10,11,20 295:1 340:17 473:22 632:3 480:21,23 481:3,20 alarming 148:7 468:1,20,21,23 469:4 473:23 542:17 546:14 AFCI 380:8,13,22 383:9 521:1,6,16,21 537:3,8 alarms 261:4 262:16 469:7,9,17,20 470:5,6 547:4 554:5 383:10,13 384:6,7,10 557:4 573:21,23 574:8 albeit 123:17 472:19,21,22 473:2,4 America's 202:12 384:20 385:3,10,13 574:13 630:4 Alecumen 11:11 635:25 473:15,16,21,21,24,24 562:20 386:4,4,21 389:12 Agendas 22:16 126:18 635:25 473:25 474:1,3,3,9,13 American 26:25 32:18 390:15 391:25 393:3 ages 515:4 alert 432:2 amateur 397:24 64:11 186:20 229:5 395:18 397:3,14,25 aggravated 390:10 align 67:10 538:23 amazed 282:11 254:22 255:25 263:22 AFCI/GFCI 385:8 aggregate 192:24 279:8 aligned 630:16 amazing 282:16 329:16 341:4 379:20 AFCIs 335:1 382:16,25 279:15,24 282:1,3 alignment 297:16 ambient 471:5 380:6 439:21 440:5 386:1 392:18 393:18 aging 441:9 343:22 502:20 539:1 ambiguities 445:8 441:20 450:18 451:7 394:19 396:5 403:7 ago 96:4 188:16,16 630:18,18 ambiguity 139:7 366:14 454:3,14 455:17 Affairs 33:10 246:14 257:9 269:9 aligns 67:16 444:22 568:3 456:17 458:5,15 affect 55:11 60:4 183:13 298:4 333:13 363:20 ALLAGER 6:16 ambiguous 444:19 460:20 461:2 465:10 215:23 398:16 465:2 377:1 391:7 461:3 Alleger 221:21,23,23 amenable 499:2 465:20 468:2 473:10 affiliation 17:13,16 47:3 549:21 553:13 629:11 alleviate 385:16 amend 15:14 391:13 476:14 480:12 516:7 56:12 68:25 80:8 agree 50:7 51:19 56:17 Alliance 276:23 294:14 457:9 541:24 83:13 90:14 93:21 61:3 113:9 114:1 295:2 546:15 547:5 amended 42:19 53:14 Americans 194:13 97:2 99:7 101:4 103:1 115:14 130:21 155:24 548:17 556:17 557:8 135:21,22 482:5 605:1 Amherst 25:22 104:19 111:18 112:25 164:25 194:13 258:20 561:4 567:5 574:3,20 amending 13:18,25 14:6 amount 22:9 137:18 113:1 124:4 130:1 282:19 287:25 290:6 575:2,13 650:2 653:1 14:11,14,19,23,25 224:11 226:9 262:17 136:16 140:14 151:9 314:18 348:5,19 354:6 ALLISON 146:2 15:6,10 17:1 18:25 282:13 283:18 284:21 162:15 172:4 216:24 401:19 418:8 437:19 allotted 278:23 37:9 43:8 44:9 53:10 349:20 468:19 490:24 234:23 241:10 244:5 554:9 595:10,10 allow 12:11 18:8 67:12 66:18 80:5 85:10 86:6 515:3 554:15 654:12 259:24 268:19 274:9 598:23 605:14,15 68:15 82:2 135:1,14 86:21 92:12 95:14 amounts 243:21 262:12 278:10 294:24 306:8 635:11 141:13 150:24 151:1,4 98:6 100:4 101:25 280:5 384:17 308:24 323:12 327:25 agreed 455:1 548:19 152:23 179:10,10 103:21 107:13 108:10 amp 245:6,6 303:3 344:3 356:11 365:21 agreement 151:1 175:4 188:5,25 189:25 120:3,24 125:16 355:23 380:10 401:20 374:4 382:3 402:23 Agreements 205:21 194:23 248:22 250:20 132:23 133:20 138:15 401:22 406:13,14 416:16 423:9 426:16 AGW 474:7,9,13 281:18 287:14 346:17 140:5 144:16 145:11 409:15 469:1,7,20 430:5 435:4 444:4 Ah 454:10 580:22 425:4 467:6 472:22 145:16 146:13 147:13 494:12,13,16 502:4 452:9 455:23 460:1 ahead 22:17 39:19,22 490:15 491:19,21,23 158:10 159:8 169:9 538:6,6,6 540:10,11 468:6 484:19 500:3 154:7 212:22 301:23 492:22,25 494:15 170:6,10 176:20 540:11,20,24 541:5,15 503:4 508:9 513:20 322:17 478:3 580:9 529:3 580:11 177:17 180:17 204:18 541:15,17,20 524:5 532:7 539:21 601:6,10 603:16,17 allowable 14:15,23 212:6 227:8,22 228:14 ampacity 467:25 468:13 551:2 560:25 570:25 605:11 619:24 allowance 627:7 229:2 231:2 240:24 470:2,2,17,20,21 579:14 586:1 591:10 AHJ 24:22 50:13 58:21 allowances 482:1 254:20 263:18 264:22 471:10,15,20 472:19 595:3 604:10 617:4 60:17,23 82:2 142:21 allowed 178:17 226:9 273:17 293:2 294:10 ampere 407:17 408:1 626:4 631:25 635:16 142:23 143:1 186:2 242:10 284:19,20 305:5 306:23 313:21 469:10 639:12 642:17 648:6 206:14 248:25 318:4 325:11 442:25 443:16 321:23 339:24 340:14 amperes 372:10 408:3 affirmative 65:2 297:16 319:18 323:25 328:9 469:22 487:15,17 352:23 371:18 379:17 470:22 343:21 550:24 336:6 463:17 569:1 488:5 490:11 502:22 393:11 400:17 413:7 ample 59:5 151:4 356:3 affirmed 431:18 434:3 571:17 646:18,19 533:18 552:17 578:16 421:21 424:17 428:15 373:23 597:24 625:22 638:22 AHJs 50:25 52:4 63:21 578:19 653:16 430:25 431:3 433:22 amps 201:1,2 341:16 affirming 298:5 64:18 83:24 141:5 allowing 151:2 531:16 439:19 450:16 453:24 345:25 349:19 401:15 affordable 202:11 194:19 257:7 268:1 allows 109:22 110:16 458:2 464:15,18 465:7 403:10 404:11 406:18 364:11 319:25 434:18 552:23 188:1 278:20 325:7 465:22 466:14 480:2 407:20 469:1,11 afforded 18:10 aid 267:24 606:9 429:4,4 445:2 489:11 481:7 493:20 501:14 474:12 544:18 aft 89:22 aim 458:17 547:15 548:13 554:21 504:16 511:16 520:13 analogy 202:20 afternoon 174:19 199:23 aimed 382:12 Allred 383:20 521:9,24 527:21 analysis 183:18 438:10

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 3 analytics 383:6 626:23 104:16 167:17 179:17 approaches 33:6 34:1 Arizona 21:13 185:3 and' 115:23 Apfelbeck 80:11,22 324:8 327:12,14 79:14 187:17 188:8 190:2 and/or 525:6 639:13 apologies 182:9 188:19 333:11 336:8 515:15 appropriate 18:6 101:1 196:23 256:11 Andre 10:15 490:8,8 392:10 605:11 617:19 639:7 646:1 123:25 128:25 129:4 armor 528:24 529:11,19 Andrew 4:18 34:12,13 622:23 application 77:21 87:17 139:15,16 149:21 529:21,23 531:22 144:10,21 146:2 apologize 86:20 193:9 101:1 122:19 139:16 173:3 198:24 207:4 533:10 Andy 4:22 9:2 151:12,13 239:19 416:22 485:10 225:17 268:10 269:16 219:25 233:4 259:14 armored 528:13,20 388:17,18 497:15 508:13 535:7 312:25 335:10 344:11 259:18 284:14 329:7 529:13,15,18 533:15 animal 360:6 579:16 581:6 582:13 375:3 409:14,23 336:3 434:6 486:13 arose 153:8 animals 445:25 582:19 634:8,18 447:18 491:21 604:5 490:3 525:8 576:12 arrange 369:25 annex 46:17 82:5,18,19 app 13:12 14:10 36:4 632:6,8,11,15 647:6 appropriately 557:12 arrangement 49:24 82:23 110:11,15,22 apparatus 135:6 311:12 659:1 558:6 576:24 309:20 111:14 112:18 114:5,5 322:1,22 323:14 applications 68:21 approval 327:5,9,19,22 arrangements 13:8 36:1 114:9,10,25 116:9,10 325:11 337:11 400:20 163:4 192:4 202:25 328:10 576:3 array 116:6 122:22 123:17 126:10 424:20 425:4 428:18 213:11 214:2,10 approve 135:14 249:2 arson 394:12 128:16,19 129:3 131:5 493:23 501:17 511:20 219:14,15,18 222:17 434:21 451:14 article 296:19 297:20 131:6 141:4,24 170:25 520:21,22 225:7 295:24 296:4 approved 139:8,9,9,10 302:10,14,16 305:24 171:20,22 265:9,9,18 apparent 52:5 522:11,24 297:22 298:3,21 139:19 141:13 142:5 318:19 326:13,25 266:21,24 267:2,6,12 585:11 590:20 594:17 374:22,25 375:1 142:25 156:9 204:20 354:12 356:22 404:8 267:24 268:7,14 269:4 597:18 602:15 615:4 473:19 482:16 483:14 215:12 259:7,8,10 422:18,19 454:19 269:11,20 270:13 625:15 633:2 638:13 483:18 496:2,7,8 261:5 276:20 329:19 456:20 459:16 470:21 271:10 279:7 280:3 apparently 161:7 547:16 576:8,11 336:17,17 366:22 474:8 498:10 517:13 432:17 434:11,13 appeal 15:22 36:17,20 632:12,13 540:19 517:15 533:5 535:15 435:14 437:14,24 417:22 applied 149:8 150:1 approved' 142:10 542:12 543:15 549:18 438:1,7,15 appeals 15:19,19 37:7 153:21 187:9,10 approving 505:11 559:19 560:5,6 562:14 Annexes 141:15 433:23 327:11 328:16 336:3 approximately 130:11 569:5 570:3 577:25 announce 18:17 78:10 appear 18:12 42:21 410:2 444:21 512:11 202:2,3 217:6 265:10 592:4 597:1,5 600:16 118:22 81:23 393:23 419:1,2 519:2 604:17 268:8 601:20,20 602:6 announced 304:23 438:2 490:14 642:11 applies 57:24 111:13 April 102:21 603:14,19 608:6 453:18 546:5 660:5 179:8 192:3 208:25 APS 200:2,9,19 623:12,13 629:8,17,25 announcement 12:22 appearance 413:23 288:20 315:20 324:5 aqueous 288:21 634:22,23 641:25 13:3 35:15,21 38:6 appeared 65:18 66:4,8 337:21 338:2 356:25 arbitrarily 459:18 642:1,2,8,9 655:7,18 40:22 118:10 168:12 145:14 227:13 228:5 376:13 403:9 543:3 arbitrary 242:7 285:5 655:18,22 656:7,11 announcements 42:5 228:19 229:8 264:14 620:16 646:8 arc 346:5,12 350:4,23 articles 517:18 619:5 339:11 340:6 409:1 413:19 apply 57:22 90:10 387:3 395:4 401:19 629:1,6,7,9,9 630:8,17 annoyance 389:18 414:18 444:16 480:15 110:21 113:25 180:13 420:3 436:12 533:17 630:23 639:8 646:11 annual 14:11 43:22 59:1 480:22 516:2 521:1,16 181:3 188:4 191:21 635:19 648:2 655:20 85:19 107:21 120:12 537:2 574:7 637:17 192:19 204:22 206:17 architecture 557:13 Arup 119:24 133:7 144:25 146:23 appears 79:16 481:18,21 207:7,9 217:24 219:25 575:20 as- 48:7 158:20 169:18 173:13 557:4 225:12 260:23 268:14 arcing 350:2 382:22 as-built 50:6 177:4 293:22 315:2 appending 431:22 288:21,23 302:18 386:18 438:21 529:13 as-is 277:8 anomaly 200:10 appendix 81:10,11,21 330:4 335:18,19 529:15,16 531:21 Ashray 261:18 262:13 ANSI 306:12,14 269:3,4,5,11,20 344:17 360:1 391:25 533:13 Ashton 6:24 261:15,15 answer 49:5 222:21 applause 20:9,13,16 447:12,18,20,22 517:1 arcs 389:23 398:6,12 261:23 262:2,4,6 282:23 359:21 390:11 21:15 23:10 25:8,25 517:23,24 549:3 arduous 22:24 281:23,23 483:17 506:12 524:16 26:7,24 27:25 28:19 576:12 602:7 618:14 area 75:22 76:1 181:9,11 aside 646:18 answered 59:25 29:13 30:13 31:2 635:21 649:2 192:2 199:15 203:10 asked 18:16 49:4 72:14 answers 383:9 34:23 43:15 80:1 85:1 applying 149:25 196:21 203:17 250:22 268:6 73:16 81:21 165:6,23 Anthony 6:5 199:23,23 107:3 118:8 119:1 349:6 279:9,14,20 286:1,9 165:24 166:1 203:21 200:5,7,9 132:13 144:6 146:3 appoint 443:21 325:13 346:17 358:11 382:18 384:4 456:7,10 anticipated 392:1 158:2 176:11 209:16 appointment 23:19 368:2 369:5 374:24 459:12 506:11 517:14 ANTONINO 4:13 133:3 211:5 212:1 223:7 appreciate 83:24 165:22 448:2 569:9 571:22 asking 79:7 80:25 225:5 135:20 137:25 140:1 281:9 289:19 290:16 191:12 220:11 261:20 areas 16:19 187:19 236:16 258:9 303:8 143:13 292:8,17 293:15 262:7 267:21 274:16 202:6 234:12 278:1 342:13 364:11 372:22 Antonio 12:9 132:18 331:25 332:24 340:4 278:17 287:24 362:25 279:19 280:1 283:6 419:9 432:18 441:15 387:3 399:3 418:5,10 420:11 389:2,8,14 392:6 284:9 363:9,20 368:24 442:4 460:8 645:10 anybody 44:10 75:11 427:5 453:17 480:8 426:7 452:5 542:18 380:14 392:18 448:1 asks 195:3 204:19 278:6 77:3,24 78:20 82:3,10 498:22 503:10 510:10 623:8 483:7 487:19 529:15 aspect 150:15 369:4 84:4 104:18 183:12 520:24 521:14 530:13 appreciated 19:21 651:20 646:7 271:21 377:8 389:3 574:6 580:23 659:14 283:23 569:10 argue 192:11,12 aspects 82:22 316:10 506:23 510:17 625:22 659:23 660:17 appreciation 25:15 argued 543:14 438:8 anybody's 56:1,8 appliance 161:2 300:11 34:22 426:7 arguing 51:25 478:24 assemble 590:7 anyone's 41:23 300:14 354:13 approach 17:5 79:5 argument 350:16 477:8 Assemblies 27:6 anyway 86:24 251:16 appliances 87:22 167:19 81:20 184:15 187:18 593:16 598:9 630:25 assembly 27:6 32:23 258:5 323:22 395:18 279:24 280:8 354:17 187:19 327:4,19 arguments 426:23 66:14 227:18 228:11 467:21 354:20 357:1 358:17 360:11 417:20 441:13 473:12 591:17 228:24 229:13 264:19 anyways 39:12 359:10 384:19 516:17 523:25 576:4 arising 297:25 298:24 340:11 377:2 480:20 apart 390:9 406:24 426:8 applicable 68:17 90:21 approached 573:18 549:22 559:23 481:2 487:11 521:5,20

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 4

522:14 537:7 541:13 137:1,1,2,4,7,20 546:15,16 547:5,5,8 back-layering 121:24 597:4,5 605:1,20 573:21 574:13 268:25 269:4 458:22 547:14,16,19,20 548:5 122:4 123:3,4,9,11,18 637:18 642:4 645:9 assessed 18:6 461:6 466:3 487:12 548:17 550:5 551:25 123:20 124:13,14 baseline 223:11 assessment 123:8 641:4,7,22 642:5,14 552:5,9,14 557:13 backed 214:22 basement 349:18 363:11 asset 29:14 186:24 AT&T 645:6 652:8,8 559:4 568:10 571:16 background 38:3,5 363:15 366:7 367:15 188:8 189:2 256:14 ATKINSON-BAKER 1:19 576:8,11 40:20 71:23,25 72:6 367:24 368:7 387:20 assign 41:17 attach 496:12 auxiliary 87:22 72:12,22 73:7,14,21 397:15 assigned 41:19,24 attachment 502:3 availability 529:2 568:20 73:25 74:3,15 75:2,4,6 basements 363:6,9,18 267:19 271:13 433:25 attack 341:22 608:15 75:10,16 76:14,19 363:20 366:2,8,15 assist 19:20 650:4,9 attempt 52:9 276:11 available 13:19 14:5,24 77:2,5,8,15,19,22 79:1 367:11 368:23 369:1 651:19 432:13 568:3 598:14 42:2 90:1 172:1 247:1 79:11 80:19 119:19 basic 51:20 578:10 assisting 78:2 attempted 224:16 265:23 274:25 303:17 208:13 222:9 230:16 basically 48:9 72:17 assists 17:19 355:14 558:22 577:13 310:20 383:4 417:16 230:25 269:15 339:22 81:23 105:14 187:2 associated 26:12 28:4 attempts 189:18 216:19 417:18 432:7 434:17 506:16 507:2 283:4 324:17 341:17 28:23 29:18 30:17 466:11 515:22 522:17,17 backseat 580:10 342:2 348:10 353:23 33:14 38:2,4 40:18,20 attend 384:4 550:19 552:23 560:8 backup 216:4 279:22 405:18 408:2 416:8 110:15 128:4 149:18 attendance 17:10 avenue 150:13 441:2 285:3 456:19 518:1 531:10 171:15 198:18 204:22 attended 259:9 avenues 308:8 backwards 621:9 538:17 553:3 575:23 205:14 214:14 233:24 attendee 13:21 130:24 average 148:24 202:6 backyards 290:2 601:24 612:25 614:2 234:4,6 307:10 309:13 attending 130:24 avoid 129:17 282:23 bad 170:21 356:6 477:7 628:22 651:1 313:9 327:10,17 343:7 attention 22:14 64:5 357:11 396:12 434:22 badge 16:18 41:17,19,25 basics 552:11 355:13 368:20 369:7 183:2 208:19 209:3 542:2 610:6 Badinksi 396:16 basing 611:1 586:15 216:15 277:14 308:2 awake 208:17 BADINSKI 396:15,23 basis 123:8 149:4 Associates 29:15 43:4 494:18 576:22 622:19 award 2:14,16,18,20,22 BAE 212:8,24 224:23 200:11,17 224:14 169:5 623:1 636:2 2:24 3:1,3,5,7 21:3,8 273:19 274:10 235:10 252:4 287:16 Association 16:16 27:1 attentively 24:2 21:12 23:7,9,12 25:7 balance 186:13 235:6 308:11 310:9 312:15 44:16 147:16 151:14 attest 283:19 661:5,8 25:12,17,19 26:5,22 582:24 327:15 388:1 404:22 154:14 162:19 189:9 attestation 335:11 27:23 28:17 29:11 ballot 15:23,25 36:22,24 416:10 456:9 201:24 209:13 235:2 attorney 661:9 30:11,25 31:23 34:22 44:2,4 65:1 85:24,25 bathroom 614:9 289:14 316:24 322:22 attract 208:19 209:3 awarded 18:4 108:2,4 120:17,18 bathrooms 543:19 323:14 337:12 347:19 attributable 432:10 awards 21:6,7,11 25:10 133:12,13 145:4,5 batteries 191:24 192:1 353:1,16 355:8 356:15 audience 19:5 71:9 25:11 32:3 147:5,6 150:22 158:24 196:22 212:9,24 356:21 362:10,24 86:20 165:21 282:16 aware 64:16 68:18 74:12 159:1 169:23,25 177:9 213:10,18,21 214:1,7 364:24 366:20 367:1 388:4 538:13 74:13 283:1 313:19 177:10 241:24 294:2,3 214:10,20 215:22 371:20 372:4 373:9 audio 1:3 12:1 119:6 435:8 306:25 354:8 367:3,4 216:4 218:10,13,22 374:9 375:24 379:21 230:3 412:7 527:7 AWG 473:1,2 374:20 381:15 391:18 219:13 222:24 224:10 380:7 381:9 402:10 661:6 Ayer 7:23 318:22,23 502:23 624:14 628:3 224:23 225:3,6,14 410:9 416:3 426:3 audio/visual 261:4 630:17 643:22 234:6 235:12,12,13 429:23 431:17 432:8 August 37:6 157:6 B balloted 37:24 40:15 246:5 248:2 252:6 437:20 439:22 440:6 author 159:22 B 12:18 35:12 131:5,6 balloting 514:21 257:1,4,15,16 261:20 441:5,20,22 450:19 authorities 49:4 87:12 512:5 516:14 517:9 ballots 16:1 37:1 262:9,11,12 273:19 451:8 454:3,14 456:17 184:20 B924 128:14 131:7 ballroom 118:15 168:18 274:10,20 275:3,13,23 458:5,15 459:10 authority 48:22 132:18 back 39:15,16 50:21 balls 585:4 275:24 279:11,14,15 460:20 465:10,21 139:11,12 206:6 62:1,10 63:14 71:15 bar 489:18,20 279:18,22,25 285:23 467:16 473:10 476:14 336:18 347:7 547:20 71:16 72:4,10 73:3,15 Barber 9:2 388:17,18 battery 182:25 185:7 480:13 484:3 495:5 547:22 548:16 557:16 79:18,24 84:10 93:23 barrier 529:7,9,10 190:5,16,19,21 200:25 502:17 507:17 513:1 557:25 558:3 559:3 115:2 154:19 155:2 barriers 529:8 212:10 213:4,5 217:5 523:18 539:6 540:2,4 575:24 161:1 174:7 191:3 Barrington 28:21 219:22 221:24 234:13 541:25 575:3 602:10 Authority's 517:22 218:14 246:24 254:6 Barry 7:19 315:25,25 244:10 245:4,9 247:8 604:14 606:18 608:4 authorized 14:17 17:3 273:24 276:12,14 329:3,3 410:15,15 247:12 248:10,20 614:24 638:18 641:17 66:9 227:13 228:6,19 280:15 285:11 289:7 427:7,7 524:19,19 249:5 250:6,7,9 647:16 229:8 264:15 340:6 289:21 291:22 308:2 587:21,21 592:10,10 259:13,18 261:5,17 Association's 45:17 480:15,23 521:1,16 312:5 321:9 323:20 595:15,15 626:7,7 273:21 275:1 280:9 associations 556:18 537:3 574:8 324:25 332:7 333:13 base 229:19 315:20 281:24 282:4,7,8,8 assume 336:7 auto 547:6,7 557:8 575:3 338:7 342:3,6 346:9 648:22,23 283:7 285:3 286:3 assuming 339:12,13 Automakers 294:15,15 347:14,16 349:9 351:1 based 15:19 16:12 27:10 290:4 332:14 391:17 568:24 295:3,3 546:16 567:6 357:4 370:25 379:17 36:17 37:4 42:18 bear 72:4 228:1,2 644:1 assurance 248:18 249:8 automatic 27:4,16 31:17 390:8 392:21 393:10 57:24 61:4,4 110:9 beat 205:11 401:9 562:1 32:5 590:7 592:2 409:25 448:9 450:1 123:4 129:19 154:21 beautiful 369:19 assure 191:3 automatically 41:6 94:4 451:11 452:15 465:4 162:25 199:2 201:3 becoming 59:6 274:18 assured 248:21 automobile 300:19 490:19,22 494:17 207:8,12,14,16 226:4 357:8,11 605:24 asterisks 438:3 302:1 556:17 567:5 495:13 510:24 512:15 226:6 243:20 245:17 bedroom' 509:25 ASTM 87:25 90:6,21,22 569:18 574:3,20 575:2 522:14 526:24 533:9 277:12 284:7 297:10 beeping 13:1 35:20 93:5,5 94:16 97:8 575:13,19 587:4 606:4 608:16 297:13 298:16 327:6 beg 409:13 102:14,15 109:12,15 Automobiles 571:9 610:14,24,25 615:12 337:1 347:10 382:15 began 215:11 276:19 109:20 110:12 111:10 automotive 294:14,16 619:22 620:14 626:20 391:23 393:7 413:20 380:12 113:18 114:4,7,20,20 295:2,4,10,16,24 626:24 644:3 650:13 455:13 478:1 502:7 beginning 126:8 207:17 116:9,11 135:5,5 296:1,4 301:6 303:7 654:15 516:3 530:23 548:23 306:8 523:12

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 5 begins 17:2 647:24,25 337:10,11,14,16,19 503:19 526:1 545:8 189:25 190:16 191:21 begun 548:18 benefit?' 364:12 bit 173:2 187:24 191:14 555:11 566:2 572:17 232:1 262:9 279:3 behalf 59:14 80:11 benefits 150:10 576:7 208:7,12 219:11 282:1 583:10 659:3 283:5 299:15 419:24 137:23 164:12 172:11 Bennett 9:1 387:2,3,10 314:22 496:1 510:25 boundaries 178:12 558:10 597:6 625:4 173:11 177:23 180:22 bent 190:8 512:16 576:20 603:23 box 279:20 447:7 broadband 646:8,24 182:10 186:1 237:10 Berker 6:4 197:8,8 605:7 641:20 boxes 57:7 648:13 651:20 655:8 245:21 249:14 276:22 Bernie 169:4 black 436:8 Boyce 7:7 296:20,21,22 656:8 315:1 355:11 374:9 Berra 427:1 blanche 225:3 326:17,19,19 343:1,2 broadened 655:14 387:5 392:6 393:24 best 23:4 141:23 162:10 blanket 206:13 569:3 343:3 562:9,9 broader 289:5 396:16 436:22 442:18 172:1 187:13 256:13 blenders 354:20 boys 360:5 broadly 547:25 446:23 451:25 455:2 256:16,17 370:1 block 346:9 351:24 BRADINSKI 9:5 Brotherhood 309:4 459:8 461:20 467:14 382:20 383:8 393:6 363:11 branch 300:4,6 354:16 331:1 345:11,12 467:17 470:11 471:25 506:12 552:15 581:10 blocking 350:19,23 382:20,24 401:11 349:13 404:3 416:20 478:18,22 483:25 582:22 583:1 661:7 blocks 346:10,11 350:22 403:9 404:9,11 405:13 426:20 435:24 498:1 484:4,14 492:6 532:11 Bethesda 292:24 blow 235:11 405:14,20 407:21 513:25 591:15 541:24 551:6 586:5,8 better 51:1 52:10 67:16 blown 190:7 445:15 447:19 466:25 brought 116:4 136:9 604:19 606:17 619:12 68:21 127:7 150:12 blows 429:6 487:25 539:12,13 183:1 216:14 239:13 631:14 632:5 635:9 172:13 187:5 205:12 Blues 530:11 541:15 542:22 543:14 271:14 286:11 313:11 642:21 649:12 205:15 247:17 257:11 blurred 196:2 544:6 551:13,14 363:10 427:19 433:13 behave 127:7 482:22 285:15 308:19 338:9 BMS 248:11,14 Bravo 366:10 496:11,13 578:7,8 behaves 135:10 358:17 359:13 484:10 board 33:20 69:6 165:6 break 118:23 160:16 597:10 638:4 650:24 belabored 514:8 533:10 579:7 619:8 315:3 364:10 483:12 219:10 229:16,18 Bruce 5:7 162:18,18 belaboring 498:5 beyond 22:5 123:19 519:3 548:8,10 554:14 339:14,18,19,21 brunt 397:2 belief 645:9 183:19 267:17 312:8 557:10 558:11,11,13 407:11 411:23 412:4 brush 189:17 597:6 believe 59:19 64:18 67:8 344:23 406:20 415:15 558:13,19 575:15 473:11 526:22,23,24 625:4 151:19 154:6 164:24 448:22 577:3,11 636:2 527:2 bucket 425:12 174:3 187:19,21 195:1 bi-fold 351:24 boards 513:9,12 516:19 breakage 587:3 Buckley 6:1 194:7,8 247:7 257:5,10 258:4 bidirectional 297:5 518:25 519:2 breaker 201:1 308:14 227:10,10,24,24 258:6 259:17 278:18 299:10 560:19 boat 88:17 89:23 214:10 312:7 379:20 380:6 build 196:24 197:3 285:1 280:17 308:4 315:4 big 52:8 188:9 217:25 boats 87:18,19 88:15,22 384:7,10 385:2,3,8,12 442:7 326:18 327:20 355:4 256:16 279:20 96:13 385:13 394:21 395:2,7 builder 372:19 357:5 373:6 376:2,13 bigger 185:19 252:8 Bob 3:17 9:17 49:18,18 395:8 397:3,4,15 Builders 313:9 381:6 382:13 402:8 biggest 235:13,13 56:15,15 63:15,15 401:17 405:19 409:16 building 26:10 27:2,5 405:7,10,11,23 408:8 Biggins 5:16 176:15,24 431:1,1,12,12 410:3 469:2 522:12,12 30:2,4,6 31:6 32:19 410:22 418:18 419:22 176:25 177:15 182:8 Bobby 10:18 293:12 541:24 597:4 33:3,4,7,19,22 58:21 419:24 427:15 442:13 182:11 184:5 215:5,7 494:25 495:2,3 502:13 breaker's 510:3,5 90:8 110:21 114:19 462:23 467:14 478:7 218:19 225:22 233:20 502:15,15 breakers 308:15 385:15 139:10,12 163:13 482:21 497:9,18 233:22 234:21 239:18 body 114:24 116:11 389:6,7 395:2 397:10 181:11,14 199:16 507:14 511:16 518:21 240:4 243:15,17 244:3 130:7 150:14 207:8 397:14 405:11,12,13 206:15,22,25 207:5,5 542:1 548:20 559:1,15 255:10 258:12,14 267:7 269:19 303:6 405:15 409:20 469:7 269:2 287:4 300:12 608:18 610:11 628:16 259:22 263:1,2 267:13 309:11 404:24 416:22 469:21 470:19 498:12 301:1 363:13,14 647:13 267:15 268:17 276:16 427:19 435:25 472:1 498:14,15 584:21 380:18 383:25 386:5,8 believed 44:19 153:23 276:18 292:15,16 472:16 498:5,8 514:10 breaking 118:11 168:14 386:17,19 436:9,11 believes 46:13 59:18 Bill 8:10,22 11:22 43:14 532:17 551:18 560:3 248:14 440:9 441:1,3 442:21 215:20 278:4 316:16 43:14,18 46:9 55:2 585:22 587:11 591:6 breaks 118:10 168:13 443:7,8,9 445:3,6,10 343:23 64:24 67:20 70:10 591:20 606:23 619:18 289:24 446:25 447:3,6,8,16 bell 2:7 18:11 19:25 20:2 82:16 84:6,25 350:12 620:17 643:1 649:18 breath 556:15 626:21 447:21,23 448:14,25 20:10,14,17 23:8,11 350:12 351:21,21 bolted 401:16 breathing 346:19 350:3 449:1 482:12,24 25:6,9 26:1,19 27:20 382:8,9 498:23,23 bond 435:15 436:14 Brett 8:25 385:21,21 484:10,25 486:4,5,6 28:13 29:8 30:8,22 516:11,11 533:22,22 459:1 601:16,19,20 Brewster 158:7 486:12,13,22 487:10 31:20 34:21,24 70:1 645:5 656:3,3 bonded 602:2 609:16 Brian 8:4 330:15,15 488:4,5,6 489:13,14 651:11 billion 482:18 bonding 431:21,24 366:18,18 410:8,8 547:9 548:12 587:9 Bellis 2:3 12:7 20:11 Billions 482:19 432:4,10,17,23 433:11 503:7,7 614:4 615:22 616:8 21:16 23:15 25:21 bimetal 458:25 434:4 435:17,17 436:4 Brider 6:10 209:12,13 645:24 26:8,25 28:1,20 29:14 bimetallic 458:18,21 437:23 438:16,17 bridge 57:8 buildings 48:14 50:2 30:14 31:3 32:2 473:14 462:2 601:23 602:2 Bridges 133:10 140:2 57:8 182:17 207:12,13 belong 436:6 437:18 Bimetallics 454:2,3,13 607:17,17 608:19 brief 331:3 519:11 207:16 289:6 367:16 608:20 454:14 456:17,17 610:7,8,18,19 575:23 620:24 653:3 367:17 441:17 443:4 belongs 112:15 458:5,5,15,15 460:20 Bonesteel 184:7,7 bring 30:11 39:15 51:8 444:12 445:15,24 Ben 6:21 251:25,25 461:21 465:10,10,20 book 467:21 571:23 142:9,9 276:14 282:3 447:22,23 482:6,7,9 benchmark 58:19 465:20 473:10 476:14 borrows 445:16 302:18 397:9 470:20 482:15 486:14,14,15 beneath 445:23 476:14 480:10,12 bothered 161:7 553:5 621:14 636:2 488:14,20 489:9,12,21 beneficial 82:9 binder 137:18 bottom 41:10,12 60:18 655:18 489:23 490:1,3,16 benefit 50:13,13,14 51:2 bins 112:3,11 118:14 168:17 209:25 bringing 609:8 651:19 builds 128:17 82:7 348:18 349:23 biological 151:17 210:7,21 253:8 272:16 brings 22:14 24:17 built 48:8 58:17 215:15 350:5,7,16 351:12 Birch 506:17 291:13 320:24 361:7 269:17 291:22 321:9 223:25 224:1 277:17 364:6 432:21 438:19 Bishop 8:1 322:12,14,16 370:16 378:14 399:13 323:18 325:13 357:14 333:10 338:1,1 380:22 442:7 445:19 559:6 322:18,21 323:1,13,13 420:21 449:17 475:11 broad 57:12 189:16,23 bulk 163:4

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 6 bullet 188:24 256:20 421:9 424:6 428:3 call 37:17 55:14,15 capacitors 234:13 651:14 bumps 289:22 430:13 439:7 450:4 186:9 209:14,18,20 capacity 252:7 279:9,15 caused 366:1 568:4 bunch 86:21 114:15 453:1 457:17 464:5 210:8,13,14,18,21 279:24 282:1,3 causes 238:9 262:16 143:5 207:14 223:15 475:24 479:17 493:10 211:9,12 230:22 Captain 189:7 385:10 393:1 527:22 582:25 660:2 501:4 504:6 511:6 252:23 253:1,3,16,17 captured 207:18 208:1 causing 220:2 653:21 bunkers 112:3,11 520:3 526:13 536:18 269:3 272:7,12,19,23 237:17 caustic 235:14 burden 220:2 345:3 545:21 555:25 566:15 272:24 290:14,18,20 captures 19:9 caution 174:21 351:11 352:2 417:4 573:4 583:21 589:8 291:14,20,21,22 320:5 Caputo 3:17 49:18,19 caveat 149:15 508:2 648:25 593:2 596:5 599:13 320:12,19 321:2,7,8 56:15,15 57:18 63:15 CDC 461:19 470:10 burdensome 283:6 611:20 624:7 627:18 360:22,25 361:2,15,16 63:15 608:22 buried 650:22 633:14 636:18 640:2 370:6,9,11,19,24,25 car 185:9 564:19 565:2,6 cell 245:7 247:24 248:3 Burkett 567:2,2,11,15,23 643:12 657:1 377:25 378:7,9,17,24 Carbon 29:20 580:9 567:24 571:6 Buuck 8:11 352:25 378:25 389:19 398:23 carcinogens 148:15 cells 234:14 247:25 Burkhart 32:4 353:1,15,16,22 356:20 399:5,7,20,21 407:11 care 28:21,22,24 29:1 600:19 burn 10:7 114:13 116:4 356:20 362:9,9,23,23 420:9,14,16 421:4,5 33:20,21 58:22 147:1 center 12:16,19,24 18:12 134:14 185:15 187:14 365:10 366:7,25,25 423:20 449:9,11,13,24 186:10 303:4 363:13 19:8,11 35:10,13,18 188:6 189:14 247:19 371:19,19 372:3,3 449:25 474:22 475:5,7 377:11 560:2 609:11 283:8 349:18 425:12 460:18,19 473:9,9 375:24,24 475:20 477:15,17,19 620:8 505:17 burning 90:6 109:22 buy 314:6,7 522:18 477:24 503:8,15,21,22 careful 209:5 378:3 centers 279:21 282:5 burns 4:21 7:14 147:15 504:1 505:2 506:5 570:13 central 89:21 259:7 147:15 148:4 187:17 C 525:18,20,22 534:15 carefully 183:3 214:25 392:25 473:23 293:11 307:21,22 c 2:1 459:23 471:3,3,3,5 535:8 539:9 544:23 298:11 578:8 579:2 Century 21:21 645:7 308:3 425:24 426:1,2 474:13 578:16 545:1,3,15 555:3,5,7 carelessly 394:10 CEO 387:3 429:19,21,22 C2 183:25 184:1 555:20 565:18,20,22 Caribbean 461:3 473:23 certain 148:24 185:14 Bush 4:10 118:18,21,25 cabin 89:20 577:2 572:8,10,12,25 573:16 Carolina 169:5 388:19 225:15 238:4 269:14 119:20 120:23 121:4 cabinet 259:1 519:4 580:21,25 581:19 carried 399:21 400:11 275:19 283:5 286:22 121:13 122:14 124:2 cabinets 513:10 583:2,6,17,18 585:4 carrier 652:14 286:22 300:13 308:12 124:16,23 125:8,22 cable 438:17 445:25 609:14 613:19 622:2 carry 150:4 441:3 466:23 315:18,19 318:25,25 126:1 128:11 129:24 448:5 466:20 482:3,5 622:19 623:17 629:24 470:22 562:5 454:17 563:19 571:20 131:11,21 132:14 482:9,12,14,18,19,21 650:25 655:11 658:21 carrying 89:18 471:6 638:25 639:3 651:13 133:19,25 134:4 482:22,25 483:5,7,13 658:24 659:2,5 653:14 certainly 50:11 57:7 135:18 136:14 137:21 483:18 486:3,8,10,13 call- 41:8 288:12 cars 126:11 209:2 220:11 246:10 138:1,21,25 139:24 488:3,19 489:20 callbacks 384:18 cart 118:14 168:17 225:3 283:23 380:23 408:4 140:12 141:17 142:15 490:15 491:5 492:10 called 22:21 24:12 54:5 Carterfone 651:9 437:17 473:16 143:9,14 144:7 145:10 492:13,22 528:1,12,14 54:9 59:20 225:13 carve-outs 275:9 276:10 CERTIFICATE 661:1 145:14 146:4 147:11 528:20 529:1,5,8,13 372:19 377:6 389:19 carveouts 181:4 certification 15:1 300:8 147:21,24 148:2 529:19 530:25 531:2 394:6 563:18 581:7 cascade 257:22 300:10 323:23 335:19 150:18 151:7 152:15 531:16,18 532:21 616:6 620:11 654:6 case 63:23 121:21 136:2 384:1 466:4 153:1 154:11 155:5,9 533:4,14,15,25 534:11 calling 58:12,16 253:12 202:23 247:14 260:9 certifications 383:24 156:25 157:9 158:3 535:5 630:13,14 632:3 361:10 378:3 420:25 260:16 269:20 308:14 certified 13:18,25 14:6 159:6,11,15,19 161:19 632:14 635:19 646:21 475:18 504:3 526:7,9 310:9,9 345:5 349:3 14:10,14,19,23,25 161:22,24 162:13 648:13 655:10,11,12 538:1 545:14,16 404:22,22 405:11 15:6,9 17:1 18:25 37:9 164:8 166:14,18,21,24 655:13,16,19,24,25 555:15,18,19 566:8,9 409:15 410:3 416:10 43:8 44:9 53:10,14 167:10,21 168:24 656:15 566:10 572:23,24 416:10 417:13,13,14 66:18 80:5 85:10 86:6 business 15:6 29:5 cables 348:15,16 488:16 583:16 615:20 616:14 417:14 468:20 470:3 86:21 90:10 92:12 30:15 32:25 33:17 529:4 531:6,14 534:12 623:10 519:3 524:14 538:15 95:14 98:6 100:4 35:2,6 37:13 49:8 558:15 628:22 629:13 Calpine 202:19 580:6 590:3 613:22 101:25 103:21 107:12 72:10 118:22 173:13 630:8,24 631:19 CAM 86:25 109:24 195:6 621:23 622:12 653:19 108:10 120:3 125:16 203:7 347:1 358:15 645:11,18,18,19,23 243:9 316:14 330:17 cases 100:18 127:13 132:23 133:20 138:15 395:9 437:1 484:9 646:2,7 647:23 649:3 340:18 380:13 410:10 148:23 196:6 202:10 144:16 145:16 146:13 515:23 532:14 606:20 650:18,18,21,21,22,25 444:8,11 445:8,19 207:9 221:10,14 147:12 158:10 159:7 619:15 642:24 649:15 651:3,5 652:12 653:10 454:15,17,19 474:7 310:17 351:10 552:6 169:9 170:6,10 176:20 busses 87:13 653:11,16 654:20 588:11 590:21 601:9 cast 16:3 18:3 36:8 177:16 180:17 212:6 bussing 513:9,15 655:11,17 602:5,9 650:11 653:16 373:25 227:8,22 228:13 229:2 Bussmann 30:15 Cabot 9:23 439:21,21 653:18 654:13 656:13 catastrophic 250:24 231:2 240:24 254:20 button 37:25 40:16,19 440:5,5 450:18,18,22 Cambridge 119:25 251:2 263:18 264:22 273:17 41:9 52:23 62:8 65:7 450:24 451:7,7 camera 19:9 catch 546:8 556:14 293:2 294:9 298:16 70:15 84:10,11 91:24 cadmium 182:25 213:10 Campgrounds 540:3 categories 182:17 300:7 305:5 306:23 95:2 97:19 99:17 213:18 214:1,7,9,20 CAMs 310:22 317:25 Catherine 2:15 23:12,13 313:21 321:23 335:20 101:13 103:9 106:8 215:21 225:5 262:12 333:3 23:15 25:7 338:2 339:24 340:14 117:19 125:2 131:25 275:3,23 288:14,22 Canada 305:16 Cathy 23:17,22 24:1,10 352:23 362:8 371:17 138:4 143:18 157:13 calculate 58:2 cancer 148:6,9 24:20,25 379:17 400:17 413:7 167:24 175:24 211:17 calculated 57:21 cane 407:14 Cathy's 24:13 421:21 424:17 428:15 226:20 240:12 253:22 calculations 217:20 Cantor 6:13 217:2,3 cause 39:12 52:11 150:7 430:25 439:19 450:16 263:6 273:4 292:1 275:20 244:8,9 283:6 288:4 386:10,15 453:24 458:2 464:15 304:12 338:23 352:11 calibrated 163:11 cap 200:25 386:16 389:22 397:21 464:18 465:7,22 361:21 371:6 379:4 California 26:9 203:6,17 capability 91:11 346:6 398:12 434:14 543:2 466:13 480:1 481:7 388:13 400:1 411:12 207:2 276:22 capable 259:20 557:21 577:6 631:1 493:20 501:14 504:16

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 7

511:15 520:13 521:9 467:10,13,15,21,22 Chairs 293:6,14 417:21 608:22,22 609:2 543:14 544:6 551:13 521:24 527:21 537:11 474:20 476:25 478:15 challenge 51:9,16 166:1 Charleston 388:19 584:20 609:8 540:8,22 546:11 478:16,17,20 479:11 challenges 156:20 619:3 chart 467:5 circuit's 509:24 556:10 566:25 573:14 479:12 480:3 483:24 Champion 530:11 cheap 394:21 449:3 circuit?' 505:5 573:25 574:24 584:7 484:2,14 485:13 493:6 chance 243:14 275:8 check 186:13 198:1 circuitry 390:15 589:18 593:12 596:15 494:22,25 495:2,5,16 505:14 515:2 583:5 checked 506:17 534:4 circuits 300:6 303:1 599:23 602:11 605:1 500:24 502:10,13,15 change 38:5 40:21 42:15 checks' 389:19 380:10 386:4,22 607:14 608:4 612:6 502:17 503:1 507:10 50:2,2 51:1 55:8 56:7 chemical 165:6,17 234:5 398:14 403:9 404:9,11 614:25 624:18 628:7 507:13,15 511:2 68:6 82:17 93:17 290:4 405:13,14 406:15 633:24 637:4 640:13 512:20,22,24 519:24 94:11,11 99:2 102:21 Chemicals 34:14 409:24 445:15 487:25 644:6 522:23 523:14,16 102:22 114:21 123:1 chemistries 190:2 541:15 551:14 642:2 Certifying 120:24 145:11 530:3,6 532:10 536:13 179:12 188:9 204:19 244:24 250:6,7 275:25 646:22 400:17 433:22 540:5 537:14 538:22 539:3,5 222:14 231:22 234:20 282:24 283:9 288:14 circumstances 366:9 CFR 329:18 542:16,20 549:8,14,17 238:7,10 242:1,3,6,8,8 288:21 412:18 425:9 chain 373:17 559:11,14,18 562:9 243:9 244:16,18,21 chemistry 247:11,13,16 circumvent 541:8 chair 17:7 20:3 23:23 569:23,24 570:2 342:16 343:9 350:7 247:16 249:7 283:3 603:18 24:12 25:2,5 28:9,25 577:18,21,24 581:3,12 354:7,10 355:13 329:16 340:17 341:4 Cisco 332:17 564:11 29:3 30:1 32:10,12 582:14,15 585:2,13 363:20 372:24 374:19 cherry 498:9 499:12 648:10 654:10 34:2,11,15 43:4,12,17 589:4 590:14 592:22 391:3,16,17 420:1 Chicago 374:24 487:24 cite 359:23 43:18 44:6,14 51:7 594:10,18 595:24 432:14 441:18 446:24 chicken 470:13 534:15 cited 354:10,13 356:23 52:15,19 55:2 57:16 597:9,19 599:7 602:14 447:3 457:3 462:24 Chief 383:20 376:1 61:12 64:23 65:4 70:8 602:17,23 605:16 483:5 487:16,23 549:3 child 650:16 citizens 397:13 82:16 84:4 85:5,13,15 607:9 611:15 615:3,6 552:19 588:1 610:24 child's 560:3 city 31:4 187:11 387:4 91:19,21 93:24 94:21 615:9 619:11 620:20 613:7 616:23 617:22 China 277:25 clad 455:17 456:8 94:24 97:11,15 99:11 624:3 625:9,16 627:13 632:25 633:4 644:24 choice 477:8 458:21 459:14,17,19 101:9 107:8,16,17 631:6,9 633:9 635:1,4 645:13 648:18,25 choices 62:14 460:7,11,22 461:1,6 108:6 117:11,15 636:14 638:3,14,18 659:1 Cholan 4:8 111:21,22 461:14,20,22 462:8,9 119:24 120:7,8,21 639:23 641:11,14,18 change.' 233:6 112:24 113:1,2,10,12 462:23 465:24 466:10 124:19 131:13 132:12 642:20 643:8 647:10 changed 121:5 179:15 114:18 115:13,13,14 466:19 468:20,21,23 132:18 133:2,3,17 647:13,17 652:25 213:8 223:3 303:16 115:17,18,20 469:3,6,9,17,20 470:6 137:23 140:20 143:11 656:22 390:9 550:18 560:7 choose 205:21 248:1 470:11 472:19,21,22 144:10,19,21 145:8 Chair's 478:3 532:23 578:15 610:2 622:10 303:12 550:14 565:2 473:2,15,15,21,24,25 146:8,16 147:9 157:2 chairing 24:3 changes 23:24 24:22 choosing 560:13 474:3,9,13 157:4 158:6,14,16 chairman 47:6 83:19 42:22 55:4 56:4 83:7 chose 307:7 613:3 claim 384:19 159:4,20 167:12 169:4 86:3 90:20 93:5,25 122:21 179:15 224:2,4 chosen 317:19 claims 88:21 149:11 169:13,14,15 170:3 102:14 105:2 135:4 242:13 258:9 271:22 Chris 6:8,11 7:17 202:18 clarification 122:19 171:9 175:12,14,20 137:1 146:18 150:20 275:7 284:6 316:4 202:19 212:8,8,21,24 199:19 204:15,18 176:15,24,25 177:12 150:21 151:12 152:14 415:2 455:13 462:25 212:24 213:1,3 215:7 492:20 644:20,22 177:20 186:18 189:6 157:8 158:1 182:11 483:17 568:2 592:15 224:23,23 273:19,19 647:4 656:14 204:14 212:9 217:2,18 208:4 239:16 258:11 595:19 626:12,22 274:7,10,10,13 311:4 clarifications 564:14 218:8 220:9 225:21 263:21,21 296:23 647:3 311:4 328:3,3 344:6,6 clarified 42:17 115:6 226:17 235:1,4 240:9 299:25 301:12 307:22 changing 38:24 42:6 351:3,3 403:1,1 413:9 225:2 494:18 243:17 244:8 254:21 309:2 326:20 330:24 81:22 83:22 121:19 413:9,17,17 418:24,24 clarifies 111:15 123:16 258:14 260:14 261:16 343:3 345:9 349:11 155:19 235:9 238:5 427:13,13 455:25,25 clarify 82:17 112:24 273:20 274:7 276:18 355:5 356:2,8 364:22 375:19 605:8 468:15,15 481:9,23,23 123:25 134:10 197:12 281:23 289:13 292:16 373:7,9 374:1 381:7 chapter 46:17,23,24 489:6,6 492:19,20 197:20,24 204:21 292:23 293:9,17,18,19 381:25 387:2 390:20 58:13 96:22 97:14 499:9,9 514:15,15 206:10 270:1 298:22 294:6 296:12,18,21 396:15 402:9,20 404:1 109:25,25 114:24 524:7,7 637:6,6,15,15 365:6,8 568:3 603:14 302:9 304:8 306:22 416:1,3,13,18 423:24 115:23 163:9 183:5 Christel 481:9 603:19 612:25 645:13 307:17 318:23 326:2 426:1,3,18 429:21,23 216:2 236:21 244:2 Christine 9:20 435:6,6 655:7 326:16,19 337:8 435:22 436:21 442:15 257:25 264:9 268:8 435:10 clarifying 474:20 338:19 342:22,25 451:22 463:7 471:24 307:16 309:19,21 church 358:23 clarity 45:12 111:5 343:2 347:23 352:7,25 478:21 497:24 498:23 310:10,19 415:15 cinder 363:11 173:17 297:13 327:18 353:15 354:25 355:3,9 513:23 516:11,22 487:9,9 622:4 629:9 Cioni 6:8 202:18,19 366:13 531:12 533:7 359:19 364:17,20,25 517:6 518:5 530:8 629:17 639:1,6,6 circle 508:19 543:3 558:7 576:25 365:23 373:2,5 374:15 532:4 533:22 540:12 645:1 648:1 circuit 141:9 300:4 303:3 604:5 605:18 650:10 375:11 381:2,5,10 541:12 543:8 551:5 chapters 234:14 309:23 303:5 308:14 312:7 Class 88:7,9 466:22 383:17 402:4,7,11 562:10 563:2 564:10 characteristic 328:20 354:16 368:15 379:20 528:17 530:25 531:23 411:8 415:7,23 416:4 575:1 581:1 585:17 characteristics 112:6 380:6 382:21,24 395:1 576:18 423:3 424:2 425:17,23 586:4 590:25 591:13 328:14 395:2,8 397:17 401:11 classes 471:4 427:21,24 429:16,18 594:21 597:22 598:4 charge 523:6 580:9 401:20,22 405:11,12 classification 48:2,3 430:8,9 433:3,6,9 606:16 607:7,9 609:20 charger 259:14 261:5 405:12,15,19,20 classified 55:23 515:17 435:7 437:9 438:7 612:23 621:20 622:16 charges 523:10 407:21 409:15 410:3 clauses 276:3 439:3 442:10,13,17 625:20 631:11,13 charging 237:16 302:5 420:3,3 447:19 469:1 clean 149:9 152:22 451:17,20,24 452:22 632:23 635:6,8 636:5 558:14 560:19 564:6 470:19 498:12,14,14 155:17 160:3 174:6 454:22,25 455:1,5,20 638:16 641:16 649:11 564:22 505:9,20 506:1 507:21 565:2 653:20 658:15 457:12,14 459:4,7,9 654:9 Charles 10:9 461:18,18 522:11,12 539:12,13 cleaned 148:20 150:12 459:12,23 464:1,17 Chairman's 607:8 462:1 470:10,10 541:16,24 542:22 171:5 512:16

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 8 cleaner 154:19 497:3 273:10,11 291:17,18 217:10 218:25 219:7 649:24,25 650:10 combines 14:10 258:16 cleaners 154:22 292:7 304:17,18 321:4 219:10,21 222:8 651:4 653:8 654:15 combustible 108:1 cleaning 148:21,23,25 321:5,16,17 339:5 223:14,16 235:7 655:9 660:5,6 110:5 112:17 113:15 149:5,6,11,13,14,19 352:17 361:12,13 246:16 249:22 250:16 code- 21:25 307:2 127:11 130:13,14 149:22,24 150:5 362:1,2 370:21,22 257:5 258:9 261:9 343:22 359:19 615:9 137:20 486:7,18 487:4 151:16 154:21 155:14 371:12 378:20,22 271:25 274:19 276:4 code-making 22:21 23:1 488:4 160:13 379:10 399:18 400:7 277:6 281:5,8 284:3,8 28:5,6,7,11 30:18,20 combustible' 127:10 cleanliness 377:10 411:17,18 421:1,2,14 286:10,18 292:22 31:5 296:7,24 298:19 combustible/noncom... Cleanrooms 32:14 421:15 424:12 428:9 293:6,20 294:1 296:19 299:7 302:9 303:21 111:9 clear 45:1 61:1 63:6,10 430:18,19 439:12,13 296:19 300:18 309:20 307:8,17 310:8 312:5 combustion 109:15 63:12 72:16 180:14 449:21,22 450:9,10 313:3,14 316:3 317:13 316:25 317:21 326:20 114:13 513:13 524:1 183:24 210:7 233:11 453:6,7 457:22,23 317:17,24 318:16,18 343:3 345:14,14 355:3 561:10 268:11 288:12,17 464:11 475:17 476:4,5 326:16 328:6 329:5,9 355:8 365:24 368:19 come 62:1 74:18,23,24 302:25 316:17 348:7 479:23 493:15,16 333:5 334:8,11 335:4 368:21 375:12 376:20 78:12,21 86:22 90:13 432:22 502:24 505:25 501:9,10 503:25 336:5 341:8 342:25 381:9,11 402:7 404:21 143:4 201:9 226:9 507:19,22 508:18,19 504:11,12 511:11,12 344:15 357:20 359:3,5 404:21,24 406:7 407:1 238:8 280:15 281:18 509:12,12,20 510:7 520:8,9 526:6,18,19 359:25 364:13,20 407:4 414:15 418:19 282:14 284:11 286:7 512:17 515:16 517:3 536:24 545:13 546:2 366:14 372:9 373:5 423:12 433:6,13 455:6 289:8 314:17 358:15 552:19 563:5 605:9 555:17 556:6 566:6,7 376:12 381:5 384:21 456:2,3,10 467:17 366:2,13 373:17 390:8 606:3 639:3 566:21 572:22 573:10 389:9 390:12,23 468:18,18 469:15 435:13 465:4 477:21 clearly 57:4 61:7 71:15 583:15 584:2 589:14 391:10,10,13,19,20,21 474:10 478:21 484:4 494:10 506:9 517:25 117:2 136:1 167:7 593:8 596:11 599:19 391:25 392:11,20 484:14 490:21 495:5 526:24 576:5 610:14 288:20 297:2,23 612:1 624:13 628:2 393:1 408:17 410:17 502:17 507:16 512:25 650:22 652:21 653:11 298:19 309:21 410:2 633:20 636:24 640:8 415:10,11,23 417:5,9 513:3 514:7 523:6,9 655:14 656:11 436:4 437:14 440:21 643:18 659:13 419:15 422:12,12,13 523:17 530:6 540:3 comes 142:22 206:3 449:1 459:17 525:1 closely 180:7 422:20 429:19 432:1,7 549:17 558:22 559:18 288:2 303:4,17 506:2 533:10 558:18 577:10 closer 87:7 187:6 520:16 432:11,11,12,15,18,19 570:2,13 577:13,25 550:19 560:1,8 585:5 Cleveland 164:14 clothing 31:13 146:7,21 432:23,25 434:2 436:5 590:22 598:6 601:14 610:24 620:8 client 111:23 113:4 148:18 149:9 440:18,21 442:13 601:15,15,18 602:17 comfortable 42:23 204:5 clients' 390:7 cloud 165:15 444:8,9,15 446:4,13 602:23,25 604:16 coming 38:11 58:7 65:25 Cline 7:11 302:8,8 Club 21:21 446:14,23 451:13,20 608:20 621:13,15 91:4 161:2 166:12 535:21,21,24 536:2 clue 505:23 509:2 454:25 455:1,2,13,16 649:24 652:24 308:1 318:1 351:19 549:14,16,16 559:15 CME 652:23 456:12 458:19,22 code,' 205:12 260:7 367:8 449:2,3 452:3 559:17,17 563:2,16 CMP 297:1,20,21 298:4 459:7,8 461:5 463:15 codes 25:16 68:15 83:3 514:11 654:21,22 564:13 569:25 570:1,1 308:3,5 309:15 327:1 467:13,14,21 472:18 135:16 172:17 178:12 655:10,15 656:10 577:21,23,23 579:5 327:16,20 343:4,12 473:4,18 478:17,18,22 178:17 188:3 202:24 commend 283:17 619:1 clip 429:5,7 430:1 355:12 416:4 433:16 482:24 483:2,5,10,24 207:6,8 212:11 213:4 comment 37:20,21 clips 425:14 434:2 563:3 564:12,13 483:25 484:5,8,11 213:19,24 217:11 40:10,12 45:3,6 52:14 clock 331:22,24 618:18 638:18,20,21 486:24 487:7,24 219:24 224:1,6,9,15 52:22 66:22 67:1,10 close 18:15 19:10 38:8 641:18 642:3,13 489:10,13,14,16 491:2 224:18,24 265:12 67:16,21 70:7,14 40:24 53:3 65:12 92:4 647:17,19,21 491:22 492:25 494:12 268:3,4,13 271:5,19 72:14 76:9 84:9 86:9 95:7 97:24 99:22 CNE 14:9 494:25 496:19 502:13 273:21,23 275:1 276:5 86:12 91:18,23 92:15 101:18 103:14 106:13 Co- 201:24 507:13 508:4 512:22 277:19 318:23 330:16 92:19 94:21 95:1,18 117:24 125:8 132:5 Co-Chair 261:17 515:11 516:23 517:1,5 347:2 363:13 374:9 95:21 97:11,18 98:10 143:23 157:18 190:22 Co-Panel 425:24 562:10 517:7 519:14 523:14 389:17 418:7 431:13 98:12 99:11,16 100:8 227:1 292:6 339:15 Coast 87:5 88:19 90:2 524:21 525:10 531:20 443:8 461:11 468:9 100:10 101:8,9,12 371:11 400:6 411:24 96:20 97:7,13 533:11 534:15,20 484:23 485:21 487:20 102:4,7 103:3,9,25 428:8 464:10 474:14 cobalt 252:11 535:8,12 538:3,4 503:7 542:10 104:2 105:20 106:7 479:22 503:24 526:5 code 21:17,25 23:16,17 539:3,15 540:9 543:3 Cogburn 293:10 108:14,15,18,18 111:4 536:23 545:12 546:1 23:25 24:10,18,21,24 543:22 547:9 548:18 cold 395:7 117:8,9,18,18 133:24 555:16 556:5 566:20 25:23 26:10,18 27:2,5 548:21 549:14 551:9 colleague 115:15 598:24 134:1 135:25 137:22 573:9 583:14 584:1 27:13 28:3 30:2,6,17 552:18,18 553:19,19 608:18 138:3 157:5 160:20 589:13 593:7 596:10 31:6 32:4,19 33:3,8,19 559:14 560:5 561:24 colleagues 654:24 178:3 180:3 191:11 599:18 611:25 624:12 68:14 69:17 81:19,22 563:7 565:12 568:2,3 collect 382:19 383:9 198:5 205:8 211:16 628:1 633:19 636:23 83:9 105:5 158:23 568:20 569:5,11,24 collection 52:9 212:14,17 220:8,19 640:7 643:17 659:10 162:8 167:18,19 571:20 577:21 579:23 color 472:13 474:20 225:20,21 226:1,11,20 659:24 170:20,21,22 172:12 585:13,17,20 587:23 Columbia 43:5 231:5,8,18 232:13,14 closed 38:6,9 40:22,25 177:21 178:13,20,25 590:25 591:3 592:12 column 126:11,14,17 232:17,18,19,22,23,24 53:4 65:13 70:20 179:6,14,22,24 180:2 594:18 595:17 597:19 127:9,24 128:5,7,8 233:2 234:20 239:10 84:16,17 92:6 95:8 180:6,7,12,13,14 597:22 601:12 604:18 129:2,8 131:17 201:20 239:12,12,16,20 97:25 99:23 101:19 184:10,19 187:2,8,21 606:3,5,9,10 609:4 474:15 630:21,23 240:11 242:3 243:16 103:15 106:14 117:25 188:4,17 189:10 610:12 615:6,13 columns 127:1,18 129:5 244:17 251:7 254:24 125:10 132:6 138:9,10 193:15 195:12,12,13 617:21 618:9,12,13 466:14,16 467:20,25 255:1 256:23 258:15 143:24 157:19 168:4,5 196:12,14,15 198:25 620:22 622:4 625:16 470:1,2,2 473:22 258:21 262:25 263:5 176:4,5 211:2,23 202:24 204:10 205:12 625:20 626:10 628:24 479:4 263:24,24 265:16,19 227:2 240:18 253:13 205:16,17,19 206:22 629:5 631:1,2,9 633:1 combination 384:10 266:1 270:12,15,17 253:14 254:12,14 206:25 207:25 208:14 635:4 638:14 641:14 586:11 275:8 276:7 277:7 263:12 272:21,22 208:15,22 209:6 646:5 647:6,13 649:23 combined 629:18,18 282:19 283:19 297:14

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 9

304:7 306:21 309:13 479:8,11 493:5 496:11 170:20 171:10,23 645:7 647:12 652:25 171:11 245:1 277:15 317:8 337:10 338:12 496:17 500:23 510:20 175:15 176:13,14,15 Committee's 44:7 46:7 303:5 307:9 415:19 341:7 348:20,21 523:1 531:7,8 532:23 176:17 177:1,5,9,21 55:1 67:20 82:15 85:4 425:20 522:25 536:5 379:22 380:1 381:19 533:12 536:12 554:7 179:23 180:12,23 86:4 88:12 93:14 585:6 590:7,15 594:11 391:23 398:7 399:25 562:15 563:3,15 181:1,2 182:10,16 96:10 98:25 100:22,24 597:13 598:9 602:5 408:20 409:1 414:10 579:20 585:7 586:12 183:2,3,11 184:1,24 104:13 108:7 111:1 625:10 638:7 423:25 427:16,22 590:16,23 592:21 187:3 191:8,9,20 120:22 122:15,17 completed 23:1 154:5 431:3,6,16 432:14 594:12 595:23 597:13 193:14,14,15 195:11 128:12 133:18 135:19 completely 51:19 52:6 434:10 438:25 439:6 603:3,7 605:21 611:15 195:12 197:5 198:11 139:25 145:9 147:10 108:25 137:6 204:5 439:23,25 440:10 618:2 620:25 625:11 200:25 206:18 208:14 150:19 159:5 161:20 244:23,24 285:5 331:8 443:13,15 447:11,14 627:12 635:20 636:13 208:15,16 212:10 161:25 162:1 170:4 369:24 605:3 613:2 448:2,8,13 450:3,19 638:7 639:23 643:6 213:4 215:14,20,25 171:8 177:13 189:11 628:20 451:1 452:20,25 454:4 645:8 647:9,20,22 216:13 217:5 218:20 215:6 232:15 233:15 completing 391:6 454:7 455:7,9 457:10 656:20 220:12,18,21 221:6,7 233:21 258:13 267:14 completion 306:24 457:17 458:6,10 commercial 85:23 87:19 221:11,15 222:9,19 283:20 294:7 326:4 complex 152:2 155:23 463:23 464:4 465:11 89:16 91:8 96:23 226:3,5,8,12 232:13 committees 24:14 25:14 178:18 410:22 465:15 471:15 475:1 129:10 201:12 213:11 232:19,21 233:1 234:7 26:10,12,16 27:2,6,9 complexities 568:17 475:23 476:15,19 345:4 367:15,16 234:11,16,19 237:9,10 27:16 28:5,24 29:4,18 complexity 171:13 478:12 479:10,17 447:21 239:11 242:5,19 243:3 29:22 30:3,18 31:7,9 247:11 248:5,15 249:7 481:10,13 484:25 commercially 152:1 243:18 244:10 245:16 31:12 32:6,9,20 33:2 467:23 488:23 489:8,17,18 274:25 245:23 246:24 249:13 33:14,20,24 34:8 compliance 22:22 46:2 490:10 492:18,22 commissioning 27:11 249:14,16 251:13 134:14 148:17 158:25 52:2,7,10 109:2,18 493:4,10 496:25 29:23 183:15 252:1 255:11 258:4,15 162:22 164:12 172:10 149:16 247:11 248:18 504:18,20 510:19 commissions 206:6 258:20 259:12,17 256:9 345:13 389:10 249:7 274:19 324:2,11 511:5 514:23 515:2,8 commitment 283:20 260:3,4 261:17 263:25 554:16 586:15 618:18 327:13 335:15,25 517:13 519:22 533:7 committed 178:14 265:17 266:3,12,19,22 619:1 336:10 540:21,23,25 544:4 295:16 382:11 418:15 267:17,18,23 268:12 commodities 49:25 compliant 323:25 563:25 567:7,13,17 441:7 269:10,13 270:24,25 commodity 48:3 complicated 96:18 568:1 573:3 575:5,7 committee 14:12 15:1 271:12 273:24 274:16 common 204:10 289:16 353:7,18 384:11 583:20 589:2 599:6 15:23 17:8 19:7 22:2 275:6 276:7,13,25 290:3 302:17 386:19 404:14 588:9 611:13 612:11,15 22:20,25 23:17,19 277:11,16 278:4,16,21 397:10 508:24 605:24 complication 96:18 621:10 623:25 624:1,6 24:4,20,25 25:1,3,4,11 280:17 281:24 282:11 645:21 649:1 complied 335:11 604:3 628:11,13 631:16 25:12,13 26:4,22 28:3 283:11,17 285:11,12 commonly 489:11 622:6 complies 116:23 134:12 633:7,8,13 634:8,13 28:16,22 29:16 30:2,6 285:20 286:8 287:14 commonsensically 336:7 571:20 635:24 636:11,12,17 30:16 31:18,23 32:3 289:8 292:21,23 293:8 164:25 compliment 475:2 638:20 639:21 640:17 33:4,5,7,12 34:3,13,18 293:20,23 296:14,15 communicate 506:4 comply 115:25 206:9,21 640:19 641:5,8 642:4 34:19,20 36:21,22,24 306:21,25 307:6,9,12 communicated 251:21 206:25 236:23 250:18 643:5,11 644:11,14 42:12 43:1,3,4,5,19,23 310:5,7 317:15 326:6 communication 638:25 279:11 303:15 308:7 646:5 648:21 656:19 44:3,17 45:18 46:13 326:10,23 342:24 642:1,2 654:20 344:20 443:7 548:6 656:25 658:3 53:22 55:8 61:18,22 345:14 347:14 355:2 communications 248:16 550:17 552:20 commented 271:14 65:2 67:19 68:13,20 359:3 364:19 373:4 637:21 639:4 645:17 complying 461:5 commenters 405:6 68:20 82:25 85:3,5,7 374:10 381:4 391:15 645:19 646:22 652:11 component 110:8 commenting 167:5 85:16,20,25 88:18 402:6 404:20 414:4,8 652:13 656:9,15 312:19,20 500:17 comments 19:16 22:10 89:2,25 93:15,18 415:18,22 417:1,6,10 communities 196:5 568:17 571:10,11 52:15,18 64:23 70:9 96:16 99:4 102:20 417:12,13 422:13 community 24:23 81:19 components 141:8 71:9 84:5 89:7 91:19 105:5 107:5,7,8,10,18 423:4 425:20 429:17 82:2 165:19,22 208:20 311:12 315:18,19 94:22 97:12 99:12 107:22 108:3 110:10 431:19,20 433:5,14,23 235:19 388:11 547:8 403:17 487:5,11 568:6 110:20 124:20,21,23 111:2,7,25 112:8,14 434:7,10,12,20,25 548:5 568:8,11,13,16,24 129:9 137:23 143:12 112:22 114:10 116:8 435:16 437:9 442:12 companies 149:8 152:8 584:20,22 588:8 590:6 143:14 157:2,9 167:12 117:13 119:22,23,24 443:21 451:19 454:24 182:20 186:5 195:1 590:6 597:4 167:14 171:19 175:13 119:25 120:9,13,18 459:6 461:12 467:12 567:4 603:2 composed 443:21 178:1 179:25 183:3 121:23 123:21,24 468:10 478:16 483:24 companies' 195:18 compounded 444:22 191:19 220:17,20,23 128:15,24 129:15 484:24 491:16 494:12 company 17:13,16 45:13 comprehensive 23:1 220:25 221:3,12,16,18 130:22,23 131:1 494:24 495:7,8 502:12 47:10 112:25 113:1 179:16 215:17 277:21 224:2 225:23 226:2,7 132:15,17,17,20,24 502:19,20,24 507:12 159:25 164:13 177:20 277:22 303:22 232:20,23 237:11 133:4,8,13 134:16 512:21 514:5 522:25 186:21 195:23 196:1 compressed 191:23 239:5 246:13 249:19 135:20,22 136:12,12 523:3,8 530:5 531:10 204:17 205:8 228:16 compressor 395:14 256:10 263:20 268:8 137:7,24 140:7 143:12 542:23 544:4,5 549:10 247:6 344:12 405:4 comprises 298:11 275:15 277:4,9,11,12 144:7,9,9,10,13,22 558:22 559:13 577:13 441:21 535:3 567:3,24 compromised 579:2 287:23 289:3 307:10 145:1,5,24 146:5,7,8 577:20 578:13 585:4,6 compare 221:5 531:6 compromises 578:9 309:8,13,17 310:8,12 146:10,19,24 147:5 585:9,13 586:7,8,9,15 compared 251:1 270:5 compromising 616:25 310:22,24 311:8 331:3 150:21,24 151:1 154:2 590:15 594:11 597:11 363:9 computer 389:25 331:7 337:7 338:17 154:16,18 155:20 602:16 604:19,21 comparison 446:4 computers 198:19 352:1 362:25 383:19 156:12,23 157:3 158:4 605:16 606:13 615:5 compatibility 455:15 computing 571:9 404:20 413:4 414:2,16 158:5,6,7,11,18,21 617:11,22 618:8,17 compatible 398:10 concentrate 274:24 415:11,12,19 417:12 159:21,25 161:7 162:2 625:10 629:12,16 486:11 561:18 563:22 concentrated 279:14 417:18 424:1 451:16 162:10 164:6 167:13 631:8 633:1 635:3 compelling 135:23 concept 53:23 121:20 457:11 463:24 470:14 169:2,3,4,6,16,19,24 638:6,10,22,24 641:13 complete 13:19 83:4 122:1 242:24 243:5

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 10

250:7 266:5,16 269:6 50:21 87:24 252:15 confusing 113:19 298:13 364:6 383:12 470:11 608:23 652:23 297:8 302:17 315:15 conducted 126:11 127:15 311:10,22 385:18 388:14 398:19 consumer 280:8 384:16 414:12 518:13 647:24 153:14 245:24 246:4,8 317:20 473:20 516:6 515:12 550:2 460:24 655:15 250:23 252:5 437:21 641:20 considered 14:13 61:18 consuming 22:24 concepts 195:10 206:2 conducting 15:5 35:6 confusion 79:12 114:23 66:13 111:6 114:8 328:16 223:9 260:3 270:24 163:18 174:15 194:19 295:10 116:24 127:10 145:20 contact 268:25 355:16 286:17 318:8 conductive 438:21 315:12 317:9 322:20 165:16,18 183:3 373:18,20 444:18 conceptual 327:3 conductively 577:4 344:10 392:23 422:16 192:14 214:17 226:8 500:13 513:13 concern 57:6 88:24 conductor 354:15 377:3 492:8 515:24 543:2 227:18 228:10,24 contacting 165:18 142:20 163:17 181:6 461:1 462:12 466:20 548:4 552:15 568:4 229:13 232:17 242:2,9 contactor 597:4 182:22 194:16 199:14 469:12 470:20,22 603:4 607:20 612:24 247:2 264:18 285:22 contactors 584:21 217:25 219:12 246:8 471:8,11 472:21 602:2 644:23 646:17 647:4 285:23 312:6 313:22 contain 268:15 280:7 284:16 295:15 300:6 609:8 610:4,18 611:8 653:14,17,21 340:10 363:25 403:21 309:14 311:23 316:18 411:1 469:2 conductors 201:3 confusions 531:13 413:21 434:10 440:20 contained 43:8 85:10 509:13 518:25 529:12 459:14,17,19,21 460:7 congratulating 23:8 25:6 480:20 481:2 495:13 107:13 120:3 123:12 529:16,17 531:21 460:12 468:23,25 Congressional 547:22 516:4 521:5,20 537:7 132:23 144:16 146:13 588:1,1 592:15 605:15 469:7,9 471:1,2,6 conjunction 16:4 36:9 568:2 573:20 574:12 158:10 169:9 176:20 concerned 12:13 35:8 472:25 519:4 564:17 615:17 580:7 613:23 623:21 241:20 244:1 274:15 238:2 360:10 408:17 586:25 587:1 611:2,3 conjured 139:14 637:19 293:3 326:8 533:3 607:20 611:4 613:9 614:4,5 connect 295:14 548:11 considering 242:19 container 259:1 Concerning 305:24 616:4,18 623:3,4 613:9 651:12 529:18 containing 161:17 260:8 concerns 20:23 42:4 conduit 440:14 441:2 connected 192:11 248:9 consistency 306:13 280:9 343:14 112:6 129:10 147:19 445:2,5,7 446:5,9 295:20,23 299:12 451:13 630:25 633:3 containment 448:6 148:5 156:3 203:2 447:16 448:25 449:4 300:8,14,21,22 301:8 consistent 21:18 102:16 contains 46:19 160:21 214:12 216:1 275:5 488:1,15 346:4 404:12 560:17 109:4,6 112:19 114:7 328:13 403:14 438:1,7 295:18 317:10 374:23 conduits 440:8,24 577:4 611:4 618:6 114:22 135:15 243:7 contaminants 148:24,25 414:22 443:3 483:9 442:20 444:17 445:14 623:4 244:1 266:6,25 306:12 151:17 513:6 514:18 550:5 445:17,24 446:25 Connecticut 32:19 160:4 306:19 327:3 523:5 contaminated 148:19 578:8 605:7 616:14 449:1 451:12 connecting 301:3 559:4 568:14 569:12 contamination 150:13 617:10,17 618:18 conduits.' 447:17 551:15 564:18 569:13 618:9 629:15 150:16 154:8 concert 326:24 conference 190:13 connection 554:11,21 630:22 632:8 647:5 contemplate 557:13 concession 150:9 151:2 conferences 79:6 603:15,17 620:11 consistently 148:21 575:19 concessions 339:15 configuration 192:16 connections 601:17 248:24 contentious 289:3 411:24 280:10 connector 474:4 502:4 consisting 43:24 85:21 context 112:9 128:4,5 concise 507:20,22 Confined 34:8 Conrad 4:15 140:16,16 107:23 120:14 133:9 129:4,17 268:24 conclude 18:13 284:19 confirm 37:14 141:21 145:2 146:25 158:22 632:10,11 523:24 confirmed 534:6 conscious 234:7 169:20 177:6 293:25 continual 235:10 concluded 434:13 523:3 conflict 197:22 295:25 consensus 16:6 20:18 consists 486:25 continue 178:11,17 585:9 638:10 307:6 405:17 472:18 36:11 150:23 178:21 Consolidated 199:25 223:22 257:21 275:2 concludes 25:9 523:24 559:2 618:12 221:2 273:22 307:8 constant 384:24 291:1 357:15 453:12 660:12 conflict.' 561:21 310:21,25 319:4 constantly 259:9 476:24 560:21 592:6 conclusion 41:21 conflicting 296:3 434:22 consent 145:21 178:22 constituency 549:2 595:12 599:1 627:4,5 541:12 590:17 594:13 512:5 547:17 548:3,25 consequence 247:14 constitute 310:25 639:15 646:14 597:15 625:12 644:21 279:10 342:2 653:21 502:25 608:15 continued 148:20 concrete 363:12 366:4,6 conflicts 180:7,15 188:4 consequences 53:25 constraints 200:23 246:25 327:13 368:22 367:13 368:24 369:19 194:18 257:10 296:16 54:23 171:18 282:11 constructed 116:15 continues 19:2 357:12 concurrently 156:10 342:23 355:1 364:18 282:22 283:7 301:3 179:17 486:5 513:5 continuing 284:11 condense 160:25 373:3 381:3 402:5 341:9 403:5 448:10 519:14 603:11 Continuity 29:5 condenser 372:12 413:24 414:24 425:18 551:15 construction 33:4 112:1 continuous 25:13 373:16,18 375:2,3 429:18 433:4 442:11 consequently 112:14,21 112:7 113:13 114:3 528:22 529:6,17 condensing 373:13 451:18 454:23 459:5 115:24 116:8 134:22 115:7 116:3 203:5 533:14,16 534:11 condition 57:5 60:3,11 467:11 468:22 483:23 401:16 369:4 372:18 376:11 587:2 60:12 341:17 348:6,9 494:23 502:11 507:11 conservative 129:19 376:13,15 482:13 continuously 260:11,12 348:20 541:9 580:2 522:24 530:4 549:11 consider 200:12 214:25 484:9 485:14,16,17,18 346:17 470:23 557:23 627:1 552:16 557:15,21 232:13 278:19 279:18 485:19 486:11,21,22 contractor 83:21 355:15 conditioning 372:11,13 559:12 575:21,23,24 286:1 303:19 334:9,19 487:19 488:25 492:11 384:16,17 388:22 372:21 373:15 486:17 577:19 585:11 590:20 413:2 468:18 550:21 492:13,24 531:5 533:8 contractor's 396:19 conditions 104:16 594:17 597:18 602:15 557:22 560:10 578:6 610:6 397:1 131:18 185:13,15 606:7 615:4 625:15 579:9 constructions 484:12 contractors 52:4 82:10 257:1 300:13,16 631:7 635:2 638:13 considerable 654:12 486:4 529:8 533:1 313:9 367:6 384:22,24 311:13,14,16 341:22 641:12 647:11 considerably 403:8 consult 358:10 426:3 429:23 432:3,6 360:16 365:10 470:23 conforming 570:8 consideration 13:25 consultant 34:16 113:2 432:22 441:21 442:17 470:25 471:1 486:17 confronted 385:1 15:6 42:25 85:3 89:5 600:2,14 607:4 612:10 451:24 495:4 502:17 486:19 531:22 532:1 confuse 106:24 131:4,4 91:13 107:5 119:21 612:21 622:18 656:4 631:13 635:8 548:15,23 558:5 559:4 315:14 479:4 121:8 132:15 144:8 Consultants 32:4 113:2 contrary 127:17 564:5 576:14,23 confused 73:19 89:11 146:5 158:4 169:1 115:14 contrast 280:2 Condocell 460:19 473:9 113:11 478:24 630:7 176:13 199:9 204:3 consulting 107:8 346:24 contribute 112:13 conduct 13:23 18:7 confuses 127:17 130:19 243:22,24 292:21 358:6 393:23 461:19 285:25 414:21

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 11 contributed 380:23 470:12 476:13 480:9 433:4 434:14 442:11 coverage 223:18 224:18 109:20 110:21,22 contribution 16:5 21:9 Coppin 11:20 653:24 451:18 454:23 455:16 303:16 354:3 432:12 114:20 115:25 134:15 36:10 654:4 655:4,4 459:5 467:11 471:17 523:24 550:18 560:7 135:24 137:10,13,15 contributions 21:2,4 copyright 137:3 483:22 494:23 502:11 564:6 149:12 150:25 151:4 contributor 88:24 386:1 cord 502:2 538:16 507:11 522:24 530:4 covered 23:22 88:14 153:16,21 165:13 contributory 90:3 539:10,11 544:10 549:11 559:12 577:19 89:6 90:4,11 96:12 166:3 252:15 286:7,14 control 58:1,8,11 124:13 560:18 585:12 590:21 594:17 179:20,20 182:21 287:7 414:7,11 486:25 150:16 154:8 181:7,12 corded 354:19 597:18 625:15 638:13 184:3 193:24 194:3 651:13,13 182:19 195:17,20 core 444:14 641:12 650:10 197:13,13 217:13 criterion 110:6 135:10 197:17 204:23,25 Corporation 202:20 corresponding 114:25 236:18,20 239:9 282:9 135:11,12 137:5,9 216:4 222:5,7,7 444:7 corrosion 466:2 297:6,22 298:7 299:12 critical 50:5 63:20 82:22 248:15 250:17 257:2 correct 46:9 56:6 58:15 corrugated 431:14,24 372:9 380:14 396:25 121:20,21,23 122:1,3 279:23 285:4 312:18 59:6 71:12 196:12 cost 47:14,16 48:6 50:24 415:17 459:22 500:18 122:3,5,8,10,11,11,12 343:15 425:12 466:21 198:4 199:19 251:17 116:2 217:17 218:1 534:1 553:18 571:23 122:18,21 123:2 466:21 614:10 618:20 280:18,21 286:20 314:8 364:6 384:15 584:18 600:24 601:21 124:10,12,15 152:20 controlled 54:13 163:12 306:3 342:15 353:21 442:6 513:8 616:10 616:20 639:1 647:21 155:15 175:17 232:2 controller 586:12,17,20 413:5 414:25 417:24 costly 384:23 397:24 651:3,8 289:20 328:14,19 586:25 587:4,7 481:22 564:3 567:14 costs 47:24 223:2 276:1 covering 81:14 160:6 343:24,25 397:17 controllers 584:19 581:13 628:17 636:7,9 359:14 562:22 197:12 236:14 262:22 410:20 432:23 461:23 586:10,13 587:18 653:17 661:13 Council 2:4,10 15:12,16 287:3 301:14 564:2 462:2,10 588:8 corrected 54:22 58:18 15:21 16:8,10 20:3,8 607:13 Cross 180:12 controlling 586:19 58:20 60:16,25 274:22 20:12 36:13,15,18 covers 104:15 161:9 Croushore 3:23 62:3,3 controls 57:17 69:4 correcting 454:17 37:3,6 44:7 86:3 108:7 232:7 233:13 299:10 62:17,21 599:25,25 121:24 191:16 586:17 456:21 118:18 120:21 133:17 380:16 451:12 534:14 600:12,13 607:2,3 convenience 118:13 corrections 455:10 145:8,22 147:9 159:4 553:19,19,22,22 612:8,8,19,19 622:16 168:16 580:8,17 correctly 40:6 543:23 163:21,21 168:21 564:17 623:12 622:17,23 623:1 conveniently 302:1 588:21 606:10 170:3 177:13 215:12 CPSC 380:13 crowd 78:24 convention 12:16,19,24 corrects 150:9 233:16 267:20 276:20 crackling 505:19 crush 531:4 532:25 14:2,2,18 35:10,12,18 correlate 68:11 195:13 278:6 294:6 309:12 craft 85:4,17,23 87:15 crux 608:17 66:12 145:19 227:17 307:5 417:10 329:16 340:17 341:4 88:14,17,18 89:1,14 CSST 431:24 432:9 228:9,23 229:12 correlated 193:12,17 417:22 431:18 433:24 89:20 91:8,9 93:18 433:11,16,18 434:1,9 264:17 340:9 480:19 correlates 297:19,20 433:25 436:3 437:11 96:13,13,15,23 100:25 434:12,16,25 435:15 481:1 521:4,19 537:6 correlating 22:2,20,23 453:14 498:8 629:11 104:15 215:15 277:17 436:4,11,14 437:11,22 573:19 574:11 22:25 26:9 27:2 28:2 Council's 16:12 195:12 crafted 215:10 437:25 438:9,14,20 conventional 148:23 28:22 29:16 30:6,16 Counsel 2:12 20:15 crafts 88:15 Cub 530:11 converging 221:1 33:7,11 34:3 36:22 count 74:19 75:20,20 Craig 10:1 444:6,6 Cultural 29:24 conversations 42:18 266:13 292:21,23 76:13 241:23 658:12 cranked 650:12 cumbersome 182:24 185:6 456:4 293:8,20,23 296:14,15 counted 192:6 crash 552:6 571:16 current 111:5 200:12 convey 644:24 306:25 307:6,9,12 counters 74:18,23 crashes 562:23 217:9,11,15 218:3 Conveying 107:6,19 310:5,7 317:14 323:3 countless 20:21 Crawford 10:12 486:1,1 222:5 244:1 245:10 conveys 111:12 323:6 326:3,4,5,6,10 countries 116:6 136:10 crazy 47:9 265:12 278:24 279:3 convinced 91:3 326:22 337:5 338:22 140:4,9 179:3 create 83:8 148:19 165:6 297:5 299:10 343:14 Cook 293:12 342:23,24 345:13 country 82:9 90:24,25 165:25 194:19 257:4 348:12 377:13 383:6 cooking 87:21 387:17 355:2 364:19 373:4 91:6 202:10 204:9 349:5 385:16 392:19 384:14 406:20 409:25 cool 582:18 381:4 402:6 404:20 225:9 286:19 319:25 398:9 422:16 435:14 432:5 437:22 438:6 cooperation 185:4 414:4 415:18,22 417:1 364:3 482:13 487:22 466:12 516:6 530:22 470:22 471:5 500:14 cooperatives 202:2,5,13 417:6,9 422:13 423:4 505:7 507:3 603:5 548:4 559:2 605:17 507:19 523:23 528:21 coordinate 60:23 184:20 425:19 429:17 433:5 country's 202:5 618:12 622:7 631:1 534:7 540:9 543:4 coordinated 298:11,17 433:23 442:12 443:21 counts 336:23 created 67:22 89:15 568:2,10,12 576:19 coordination 179:14 451:19 454:24 459:6 county 206:5 165:4,24 182:17 577:6 580:16 609:12 COORDINATOR 2:9 467:12 478:13 483:23 couple 51:9 76:17 130:6 207:12,13 226:4,5 609:15 610:5 651:2 copies 432:6 494:24 502:12 507:12 165:4 167:2 180:4 257:18 265:18 277:11 currently 25:5 34:20 copper 455:17 456:8 512:21 522:25 523:2,8 182:12 193:5 198:9 282:25 409:2 422:11 55:16 81:10 164:1 458:21 459:14,17,19 530:5 531:10 537:17 269:9 287:22 331:3 425:18 641:21 196:20 203:4 213:24 460:7,11,22,25 461:6 537:21 538:23 540:6 339:11 378:8 412:17 creates 123:22 257:10 215:16 231:22 236:3 461:14,20,20,22 462:7 541:11 544:4,5 545:20 436:1 449:11 564:14 330:6 344:24 345:3 237:4 256:24 264:10 462:8,9,22,23 463:19 549:10 559:13 577:20 607:6 352:2 469:2 515:24 273:24 357:5 383:4 465:24,24 466:9,10,19 585:4,6,8,12 590:15 coupled 513:7 568:2,8 647:2 407:8 431:23 440:18 466:19 468:20,21,22 594:11 597:11 602:15 course 153:20 179:21 creating 81:16 149:13 440:21 444:12 466:7 468:23 469:3,6,9,17 602:16 615:4,5 625:10 456:2 629:15 295:10 329:25 456:20 469:21 488:13 531:2 469:18,19,20 470:6,11 631:7,8 635:2,3 638:6 court 118:13 168:16 547:20 548:1,25 604:22 472:19,21,22 473:2,2 638:10,22 641:13 cover 45:23 183:20 638:21 currents 576:17 473:15,15,16,21,24,25 647:11,12 649:24 192:21 202:4 217:19 creation 165:14 curse 506:5 473:25 474:3,9,13 correlation 56:2 180:12 218:12 225:8 236:1 credentials 14:20 curtail 412:18,20,20 648:13 296:16 310:6 330:19 262:23 268:14 299:18 credible 471:11,13 Curtis 6:24 261:15,15,23 Copperweld 454:2,13 348:25,25 355:1 380:9 396:25 534:11 criteria 27:17 32:7 49:23 262:2,4,6 281:23,23 456:16 458:4,14 364:18 373:3 381:3 549:22 552:9 559:22 50:7 67:13 69:22,23 custom 267:18 270:7 461:20 465:9,20 402:5 425:18 429:17 571:15 607:25 69:25 94:16,17 109:16 customer 47:13 202:9

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 12

248:7 650:12,14 92:17,21 93:13,19 30:14 31:3 32:2 579:13 585:25 591:9 deficiencies 54:2 58:20 customer's 646:9 94:6,19,24 95:19,23 day 37:13 173:19 187:8 595:2 604:9 605:17 60:15,18 61:15 63:21 customers 202:7 580:8 96:9 97:1,9,15 98:11 188:13 201:6,14,16 617:3 626:3 631:24 83:25 516:13 cycle 22:4 43:23 45:25 98:16,24 99:5,14 203:7 308:20 372:22 635:15 639:11 642:16 deficiency 54:6,7,21 81:2 85:19 107:21 100:9,13,22 101:2,11 389:5 394:8 530:21 648:5 55:7,10,14 57:1 58:17 120:13 133:7 144:25 102:5,9,19,24 103:6 661:14 debated 180:25 218:20 58:18 59:21,24 60:2,9 146:23 158:20 169:19 104:1,5,12,17,24 Daycare 25:1 26:13 31:7 249:16 381:13 605:19 60:22,24 61:7,19 174:7 175:5 177:4 105:1,8,12,18 106:3,5 days 15:21,24 16:2 debates 368:22 166:5,7,8 347:9 234:16 249:18,18,19 106:22,24 107:4 108:9 36:19,23 37:1 58:19 debating 24:20 606:5 deficiency' 64:13,19 261:11 267:10 293:23 108:16,21 110:25 256:10 388:12 491:1 decades 23:5 60:16 deficient 54:14 59:6 312:5 319:7,8 342:14 111:16 112:24 113:5 DC 259:19 558:15 123:8 214:8 245:12 defies 324:10 350:6 355:14 409:10 113:21 115:2,12,16,19 de 364:4 366:9 385:4 448:16 define 54:2 248:12 319:8 414:9 419:7 433:13 116:18 117:6,11,15 de- 409:16 482:2,8 552:2 618:10 375:16 434:20 483:11 484:6 118:9,21 172:7,8 de-energize 261:5 652:13 defined 94:2 112:8,14 561:24 613:8 655:12 174:19,19,24 352:25 de-energizing 259:13 decide 166:12 206:8,12 170:24 174:13 175:1 655:13 353:1,15,15,22 356:20 de-icing 406:15 206:14 234:19 198:19,19 233:15 cycles 23:22 298:4 356:20 362:9,9,23,23 deadline 221:9 265:22 decided 156:12 267:23 515:16 525:2 564:16 355:10 654:15 366:25,25 371:19,19 deal 87:16 182:22 185:1 271:9 315:3 452:13 569:11 580:15 cycling 219:19 372:3,3 375:24,24 187:16 191:11 196:7 470:16 defines 64:1 cyclones 112:4 554:4,4 334:7 387:13,25 deciding 110:7 definitely 63:22 492:25 cylinders 160:6 161:9 dander 395:23 388:13 517:14 552:25 decision 16:12 37:3 49:1 587:5 danger 506:22 615:15 623:18 629:10 111:15 207:6 234:8,11 definition 60:8,10 61:4,6 D dangerous 148:24 190:9 dealers 305:15 337:1 340:1 364:7 94:3 109:10,24 110:14 d 122:22 436:3 508:22 194:21 444:20 445:4 dealing 86:24 87:3,4,8 417:13,14 436:3 110:15,22 111:5,8,11 578:19,23 598:25 87:10,13 91:7 96:4,5 549:23 559:23 578:2 111:13 112:15,19 D' 508:22 dangers 205:14 288:25 102:14 137:17 185:12 651:9 114:12 115:11 121:19 dad 205:11,11 Daniel 7:5 294:12,12,25 185:13 193:19 305:7 decisions 382:13 121:22 122:18 123:1 Dad-gum-it 320:8 294:25 546:13,13 307:3 333:2 345:24 decisively 298:22 123:14,15,17,22 daily 200:11,17 308:11 547:3,3 365:9 372:20 390:3 deck 89:21 285:24 306:11,24 604:18 darned 610:21 440:11,12 484:9 declaration 303:16 307:7 308:7,16 311:9 Dale 9:5 10:12 396:15,16 dash 534:14 486:25 498:12 628:21 550:18 560:7 311:21 312:1,1 313:2 396:23 486:1,1 data 49:22,24 50:12,18 629:7 630:12 declare 35:5 114:17 315:5,10,11,12,21 Dallas 27:1 146:9 358:10 50:22,23 52:8 190:14 deals 87:15,17 100:18 660:15 661:11 317:10,12,16,19 318:2 358:11 214:23 246:19 279:20 454:15 552:10 600:16 declares 109:22 318:8,11,19 319:11,19 damage 88:25 156:5 282:5 283:8 286:12 601:9,16 602:25 decline 59:3 319:20 326:12,25 276:11 335:14 384:23 382:15,19 383:3,4,6,9 dealt 64:17 184:23 decommissioning 334:11 415:17 419:23 386:16 397:21 446:1 383:11 392:24 393:8 402:14 409:5 523:9 183:16 422:10,11,18,22 483:4 533:16 637:25 394:13 455:8,12 dearly 499:16 decrease 68:19 380:19 423:13 470:21 486:5 damaged 445:5,7 538:17 468:19 death 358:16 368:19 380:20,20,21 385:25 500:10,18 502:7 523:4 544:11 database 90:2 deaths 148:9 360:4,9 392:15,16 460:10 539:10,11 541:13,14 damaging 331:9 513:14 date 152:23 251:16 380:20 386:10 394:18 decreasing 242:19 542:22 543:15 557:9 529:19 270:8,10 286:24 579:9 debatable 172:13 dedicated 181:24 182:17 557:15 558:7,9,23 damp 365:10 367:12 641:4,6 debate 16:4,6 17:1 18:15 207:12 287:10 559:1,7 577:14 585:10 368:24 dated 180:10 661:14 18:24 19:1,10,10 36:9 dedication 23:3,6 24:15 590:19 594:15 597:16 Damp-proofing 363:16 dates 267:17,18 270:5 36:11 37:5 43:11 47:1 deem 18:6 613:8,12 623:6 625:13 Dan 3:9 5:13 8:11 34:25 dating 130:13 56:11 61:22 68:24 deemed 297:8 631:18 638:11 648:14 35:2,3,4 38:13,15,19 daughter 634:10 83:12 85:13 90:13 deep 542:21 654:22 39:1,9,11,17,19,23 Dave 3:21 4:16,21 59:13 93:20 97:2 99:6 101:3 deeply 295:16 525:4 definitions 59:25 109:4 40:4 43:16 44:8,13,20 59:14 142:19,19 102:25 104:18,19 deer 467:13 197:12 307:1,2 308:19 44:22 45:1,5,11 46:6 147:15,15 148:4 107:15 111:17 118:16 deface 324:18 311:18 315:13 317:16 46:25 48:17,20 49:16 173:10,10 293:10 120:6 124:3 129:25 defaced 324:23 317:18 51:5,11,13,15 52:13 314:25,25 369:16,16 131:5,6 133:1 136:15 defeat 508:3 deflagration 251:16 52:17 53:16 54:25 508:12,12 140:13 144:19 146:15 defect 389:20 Degenais 3:21 59:13,14 56:10 57:14 59:11 David 7:25 10:19 32:3,5 151:8 158:13 162:14 defects 547:25 548:7 173:10,10 314:25,25 61:10,25 62:14,19 34:16,17 319:16,16 168:19 169:12 172:3 defer 296:18 307:17 degradation 55:17,17,20 63:2,5,13 64:8,21 65:4 336:14,14 504:17,17 176:23 216:23 234:22 326:16 342:24 355:3 57:11 65:21,24 66:3,8,24 504:25,25 507:13,15 244:4 259:23 268:18 364:20 381:5 402:6 degraded 54:3 55:8 67:3,18 68:23 70:5,11 507:15 512:23,24,24 278:9 279:4 293:5 415:23 425:23 429:18 56:18,24 71:8,12,14,24 72:1,7 518:22,22 523:15,16 308:23 327:24 344:2 433:5 442:12 451:19 degrading 59:1 72:13,24 73:2,5,11,15 523:16 356:10 365:3,20 374:3 455:1 459:6 478:17 degree 123:9 128:22 74:1,4,7,11,13,16,21 Davidson 6:2 195:9,9,9 382:2 402:17,22 483:24 494:25 502:13 466:17 471:4 75:18 76:16,20,22 199:3 206:1,1,1,12 416:15 423:8 426:15 507:13 512:22 523:14 degrees 346:10,11,18 77:6,23 78:1,15,18 223:8,8,8 260:2,2 430:4 435:3 444:3 530:5 539:2 549:13 466:16,17 471:3,3,3 79:2,9,12,17,20,23 270:23,23,23 452:8 453:12 455:22 559:14 569:24 577:21 474:12 80:2,4,20,24 81:3,6 Davidson's 260:2 459:25 468:5 484:18 585:13 590:22 594:18 déjà 427:1 82:14 83:11,17 84:3,7 Dawn 2:3 12:7 20:11,14 503:3 508:8 513:19 597:19 602:17 615:6 delay 74:16,21 344:25 85:2 86:5,11,15 87:6 21:16 23:15 25:21 524:4 532:6 539:20 625:16 631:8 635:3 568:19 88:11 90:12 91:17,21 26:8,25 28:1,20 29:14 551:1 560:24 570:24 638:14 641:13 647:12 Delaying 150:5

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 13 delays 150:10 designated 16:19 66:10 308:16 317:12 549:1 584:20 590:6 597:2 616:1,15,21 618:9,25 delete 142:13 269:10 177:23 205:1 227:14 developers 267:25 601:13 604:23 605:4 621:3 306:23 473:6 516:15 228:7,20 229:9 480:16 developing 21:5 81:17 607:6 617:11,13 discovered 55:9 603:4 605:22 490:2 534:5 573:17 149:5 153:6 183:15,17 628:20 645:16 648:15 discrepancies 629:21 deleted 326:7 538:10 designation 129:14 203:4 392:24 differentiate 398:11 discuss 288:25 373:23 578:21,24 designed 163:1 258:23 development 13:15,17 differently 482:22 464:17 524:23 597:24 deletion 529:20 538:2 298:16 349:2 410:20 13:24 18:5 20:18 21:1 differs 312:2 557:14 625:23 613:5 561:19,19 626:23 21:10 24:15,16 25:16 difficult 184:12 216:16 discussed 42:8,9 61:16 deliberated 617:23 designee 17:4 26:2,21 27:21 28:14 235:6 274:16 280:21 96:3 102:21 134:13 deliberation 563:8 designer 518:10 29:9 30:9,24 31:21 307:19 328:18 357:8 155:20 162:7 198:11 delineation 179:11 designing 285:2 180:13,14 213:6 397:16 460:14 528:23 202:21 218:9 249:17 deliver 586:23 designs 200:12 248:20 215:11 220:15 232:12 571:7,13 648:20 249:19 285:22 304:25 delivered 393:9 desired 129:16 238:18 242:22 266:9 difficulties 42:4 74:22 385:24 429:24 442:24 delivering 564:22,23 desk 13:10 36:3 42:2 268:7 276:19 278:22 78:8 646:17 443:14 452:2 469:23 delivers 586:18 desks 89:17 296:17 309:18 382:12 difficulty 50:8 190:14 479:5 484:13 495:8 Delta 419:19 desperately 319:18 392:25 414:1 486:8 523:22 546:6 569:6 574:15,16 demand 54:6,6,9 55:18 despite 32:1 570:9 569:8 digest 151:25 152:10 602:7 603:9 618:10 55:19,22 56:20,21,25 destroyed 324:23,24 developments 96:22 digging 390:5 discusses 438:15,17,18 57:4,11,20,21 58:3,6 426:9 569:14 digital 406:23 discussing 129:2 162:22 58:10,24 59:4,7 61:21 destroying 328:19 develops 455:11,12 diligent 216:13 563:8 175:9 237:11 249:25 64:4 destructive 436:9 device 16:18 37:23 diligently 215:14 277:16 435:15 535:13 550:6 demarcation 184:13 detail 22:14 46:20 61:16 40:14 42:24 73:22 dilution 110:3,5 554:16 621:12 629:21 195:2 126:25 131:3 194:2 398:9 404:15 408:1 ding-a-ling 506:13 636:3 demonstrated 152:20 284:18 495:8 571:14 614:16 646:9 dire 448:10 discussion 16:13 17:9 denounces 541:3 detailed 96:22 126:21 devices 13:14 16:23 direct 182:19 268:7 37:20 40:11 44:9 dense 203:16 285:13 494:18 36:6 37:14 73:3 74:1 295:25 374:19 507:19 52:14 53:9,19 55:3 department 31:3 33:10 detailing 284:14 280:9 298:15 299:18 directed 172:19 215:10 64:22,25 66:16,17 146:9 153:9 154:20 details 13:10 36:3 300:11 343:15,15,15 568:7 67:4 70:6 73:17,20 179:14 186:9 189:8 126:19,24 127:21 382:25 384:15 390:1 direction 12:21 35:15 80:5 81:7 84:22 86:6 departments 148:7 130:17 193:19 194:1 401:15 403:7 406:11 153:19 156:22 175:3 86:16 91:18 92:11,22 207:5 386:9 309:20 496:25 406:13,14,20,23 420:2 238:4 342:9,10 348:8 94:20 95:14,24 97:10 departure 123:22 detect 386:15 389:24 455:16 470:19 502:21 620:9 644:3 98:6,17 99:9 100:3,14 depend 58:5 148:11 detected 258:25 259:3 502:22 558:16 588:9 directions 341:24 101:7,24 102:10 103:2 181:19 328:9 451:10 detection 29:20 163:11 588:10 598:23 626:13 directly 15:11 145:22 103:20 104:6,21 depending 137:18 256:22,24,25 257:25 626:22 183:13 205:2 215:23 105:19 106:19 108:10 206:19 349:2 587:9 258:20,22 259:4,6 devices' 420:5 302:13 447:11 544:5,6 108:22 117:7 118:5 depends 122:1 328:23 260:8,13,18 262:14,19 devise 541:6 Director 296:22 431:13 120:24 121:14 124:17 394:8 detects 580:15 devote 22:8 Directory 13:20 14:4 125:15 126:2 131:12 depiction 348:3 determination 15:1 diagnosing 188:10 directs 215:2 257:2 131:21 132:9 133:20 deployed 298:8 18:22 111:9 310:9 dial 12:16 35:10 disabilities 13:7 35:25 134:5 137:22 138:14 deployment 645:2 440:25 442:5 523:20 die 376:25 377:5,18 disabled 397:13 139:1 142:16 143:10 depressurize 165:16 determinations 37:8 differ 409:13 disagree 348:2 435:16 144:3 145:11 147:12 deprives 116:12 determine 47:14,22 difference 222:2 248:3 621:23 148:3 155:6 157:1,23 depth 316:6 410:23 48:13 60:24 114:11 279:5 367:23 436:16 disagreement 279:1 159:7,16 166:15 describe 45:13 115:9 135:9 250:18 452:3 554:18 613:4 disallow 529:3 167:11 168:9 170:6,17 described 90:7 154:1 259:13 286:14 317:15 634:23 disapproval 190:25 174:18 175:9,10 176:8 233:11 243:3 247:19 328:24 369:2 382:20 differences 135:24 disapprove 281:2 177:16 178:8 198:17 266:3,19,22 632:15 383:8 646:23,24 136:3 202:22 247:18 disassemble 571:19 206:18 212:5,20 describes 126:19 determined 14:15 18:24 436:10 438:18 disaster 29:2 394:8 216:22 225:19 227:7 describing 609:24 206:5 226:14 303:11 different 50:17 79:14 discarded 394:10 227:21 228:13 229:2 description 231:19 335:16 425:21 484:8 81:13 89:13,14 108:25 discharge 27:17 163:12 231:2,12 237:12 233:17 236:17 237:4 487:11 116:7 137:9 139:18 discharging 237:16 239:15 240:23 241:9 270:13 472:10 determines 586:23 140:24 141:10 184:14 disconnect 236:10 254:19 255:5 262:25 descriptive 311:18 determining 50:8 317:18 184:25 185:13 191:22 580:3 609:9,17 613:21 263:17 264:21 265:5 631:18 devastating 397:23 192:4 201:8 202:25 614:3,13 616:6,17 273:16 274:6 286:2 desert 285:8 287:9 develop 20:22 91:2 206:20 219:2,19,19 620:15 621:6,8 622:2 288:17 289:3 292:13 deserves 524:15 104:10 141:25 151:25 222:4,4 232:22 236:11 622:3 623:3,14 294:9,23 304:5 305:5 deserving 23:7 163:22 178:17 183:17 268:24 286:3 306:17 disconnecting 216:8 306:7 321:22 323:11 design 49:22 50:7,21 197:18 215:13,17 306:17 307:2,22 308:8 601:3,6,10 602:3 337:4 339:24 340:13 67:11,17 127:14 267:24 276:21 277:20 316:10 317:13,21 607:12,15,16 613:2,3 340:25 351:18 352:22 129:18 130:10,11 278:19 301:7 438:20 360:15 389:9 403:8 613:16,20,23 614:11 353:14 362:7,22 365:4 171:21 260:10 284:7 517:12 405:9 406:11 427:18 614:12,22 620:12 365:5,7,11 369:1 284:23 316:7,11 developed 89:8 96:7,21 465:25 466:5 471:13 623:5,10,16,17,19,21 371:17 372:2 379:16 346:13 369:4 515:14 105:15 135:7 149:7 473:17 474:11 491:24 disconnection 576:20 380:4 400:16 401:5 515:15,18,20,24 517:1 161:6 167:1,6 180:8 494:10 500:17 506:16 587:3 618:24 411:5 413:7 421:20 518:12,13 522:10,12 181:18,23 188:17 552:4,6,17,18 554:19 disconnects 357:19,24 422:6 423:17 425:2 522:16 524:22,25 214:21 220:10 269:18 562:25 563:21 568:22 404:10 579:22 603:16 427:11 428:14 429:2 525:2 543:4 269:22 271:7 277:1,20 571:13 575:20 576:6 613:22 614:16 615:21 430:24 431:11 438:24

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 14

439:18 440:4 450:15 Division 384:2 528:18,21 639:14,14 drive 171:23 395:13 400:12 416:7 438:7 451:6 452:20 453:24 529:14 Donny 293:12 565:8 571:10 453:18 468:17,17 457:9 458:1,13 463:22 do?' 506:12 doom 448:23 driven 380:11 516:2 533:13 546:5 464:14 465:6,18 document 23:20 39:4 door 190:8 342:4,4,5,8 drives 185:10 551:8 562:12 574:15 476:24 479:9 480:1 43:7 44:5 61:6 69:11 346:10,11 349:5 driving 538:25 565:7,8,9 637:17 481:7 492:17 493:3,19 84:23 85:9 86:1 350:18,22 351:24 drop 58:7 650:18,21 easier 82:4 222:20 494:7 496:1 499:23 106:25 107:11 108:5 367:25 dropped 358:16 easily 59:25 156:11 500:21 501:13,25 114:21 118:6 120:2,19 door's 348:7 dryer 360:7 282:23 303:2 347:9 502:1,2 504:15,24 132:10,21 133:14 doors 341:11,23,25 dryers 354:20 407:23 513:10 533:16 510:18 511:15 512:2 144:4,14 145:6 146:11 343:6,10,19 344:16 dual 385:8,12 397:4,4 East 12:19 35:13 519:20 520:12 521:8 147:7 157:6,24 158:9 348:4,19 349:17 351:6 duck 614:20,21,21,22,22 Eastern 384:2 521:23 522:8 527:21 159:2 164:2 165:7,7,9 351:7,9 621:25,25 622:1 easy 255:14 256:6 528:10 536:10 537:10 168:11 169:7 170:1 doubt 448:16 586:14 duct 632:16 331:10 351:25 401:7 537:24 546:10 547:2 176:9,18 177:11 184:1 Doug 6:4 11:1 197:8,8 ducts 96:4 628:25 629:8 432:22 556:9 557:1 566:24 184:11 191:16 199:4 542:16,16 567:2,2,11 629:10,14,23 630:20 eat 339:16 567:22 573:13,24 215:18 217:14 222:5 567:15,23,24 571:17 631:20 Eaton 334:3,18 368:13 574:17,24 575:11 222:13 224:17 225:14 dove 542:21 ductwork 112:3,11 376:20 406:7,10 578:9 584:6,15 588:24 226:6 234:9 267:25 downstairs 279:20 due 43:12 148:9 181:17 462:17 519:9 588:7 589:17 590:2,4 592:19 269:17 270:6,9 271:11 369:20 275:24 293:7 368:16 592:1,1 595:7 598:21 593:11 594:2,3 595:22 277:12,21,22,24 278:3 downward 243:19 372:14 384:13 385:25 598:22 626:18 639:15 596:14,25 599:4,22 281:18 293:1 294:4 dozen 414:18 432:12 433:17 513:6 Eaton's 30:14 600:11 610:20 611:10 296:3 309:11 319:13 dozens 219:5 419:10 513:12 515:3 561:7 echo 423:5 612:5,18 623:24 405:16 490:24 552:8 605:19 562:22 568:16 578:22 economic 282:22 283:6 624:17 625:2 627:10 documentation 64:15 Dr 506:17 dumbfounded 199:11 562:22 628:6,18 633:6,23 89:3 364:13 490:23 draft 43:6,21,22,24 85:8 duplex 494:12,13 538:6 Eddie 6:23 252:22,22 634:17 635:23 636:10 651:17 85:18,18,21 89:2 duplicate 422:14,17 272:6,6 290:13,13 637:3,14 639:20 documented 129:5 107:11,20,20,23 111:3 duplicating 553:1 313:8,8,25 370:5,5 640:12,23 643:4 644:5 136:3 283:2 561:7 111:4 120:1,11,12,14 duplication 422:9 423:5 377:23,23 449:8,8 644:17 656:18 659:20 documents 14:3 69:16 129:9 132:21 133:6,6 duplicative 606:8 474:19,19 544:22,22 discussions 185:4 258:4 109:7 110:19 114:15 133:9 144:14,23,24 DuPont 329:15 340:17 572:7,7 580:20,20 303:22 304:25 305:2 114:22 203:1 217:9 145:2 146:11,22,22,25 341:4 347:25 581:12 582:1 368:21 453:20 517:20 223:17 268:3 271:20 146:25 150:22 154:2 duration 42:3 109:17 Eddy 555:2,2 565:17,17 542:21 546:7 548:17 271:20 277:22 292:14 158:8,19,19,22 169:7 dust 107:24 110:2,4 Edison 194:8 199:25 550:3 557:20 621:16 552:16 169:17,18,20 176:18 113:15,20,25 600:2,14 607:4 608:10 639:2 does-- 195:18 177:3,3,5 183:6 Dusts 107:6,19 612:10,21 620:2 dishwasher 508:25 dog 653:4,5 184:24 220:19 221:4,8 Dutch 142:4 622:18 disorientation 91:12 doing 39:24 49:10 54:2 221:9,13 223:13,13,20 duty 186:9,10 394:8 edit 393:17 disparagement 190:17 84:1 141:11 151:20 226:4 232:14,15 235:4 dwelling 303:25 380:10 editing 579:7 display 19:2,11 165:20 203:7,15 241:25 242:10,12 380:14 382:21 391:25 edition 23:4 44:4 45:21 displayed 43:10 85:12 217:20 250:19 261:6 243:2 247:15 265:22 398:17 492:12,14,15 45:22,25 46:11,22 107:14 120:5 132:25 269:21 306:1 324:21 266:18,25 268:9 270:9 513:12 570:16 47:18,24 50:9 51:23 144:18 146:14 158:12 334:17 338:14 348:10 270:19 271:2,8,15 dwellings 482:14 489:24 51:24 86:1 108:4 169:11 176:22 289:23 358:8 441:13 491:6 275:7 277:1,4 278:24 492:9,23 613:15 120:19 122:22 133:14 293:4 617:12 506:6 523:8 641:6 292:25 293:21,22,24 623:20 145:6 147:7 159:1 disposal' 508:25 654:23 293:24 297:7,12 Dyan 11:11 635:25,25 160:8 169:25 177:11 dispute 224:13 dollar 8:20 379:19,19 300:18 306:25 309:15 234:9 244:22,23 disrespectful 427:17 380:5,6,21 386:13 323:21 331:6 342:15 E 278:21 280:18 281:8 disrupting 164:2 541:23,23 342:16 348:22,24 e 2:1,1 578:21 286:17 294:3 325:23 disruption 288:4,7 Dollard 7:16 309:2,3 365:5,6,16 381:13,13 E111 487:13 326:12 335:18 336:1 dissenting 604:1,2 313:9,11 330:24,25 381:15,18,20,21 E1226 113:18 353:24 363:4 372:6 disservice 276:9 332:21,25 345:9,10,20 391:12 392:11 413:20 E136 109:12,16,20 391:24 402:1 432:5 dissimilar 474:1 345:23 349:11,12 413:22,24 414:14 110:12,16 114:4,7,12 438:6 444:15 490:22 dissipated 109:14 404:1,2 416:18,19 419:3 435:14 442:23 114:20,20 134:15,16 604:22 distance 123:4 438:19 426:18,19 435:22,23 443:13 499:18 516:3,5 134:25 135:5 137:1,10 editions 46:13 69:24 distinct 20:2 247:15 497:24,25 513:23,24 530:22 531:9 540:18 137:13,14,20 268:25 159:23 357:9 431:21 261:4 591:13,14 559:8 569:3 579:22 E18(A) 642:14 editor 159:23 distinction 112:10,17 Dollard's 348:3 618:22 637:18,20 E2019 113:18 editorial 56:2,6 93:16 225:1 dollars 47:15,16 48:6 641:21,24 642:3,11 E2650 134:15 94:9 99:2 102:13,22 distinguished 25:16 dollars' 217:17 647:19 648:19 E2652 137:1,4 457:3 509:24 510:6 Dominion 218:7 drafted 261:8 E8(4) 641:22 edits 270:16 271:15 distribute 192:24 Domitrovich 8:5 333:22 Drafts 381:23 E84 90:21,22 93:4,4,5,5 educate 473:14 distributed 192:24 334:1,3 368:12,13 drain 48:7 49:10,11 94:16 97:8,14 102:14 educated 151:5 279:11 282:6 571:9 369:14 375:15 376:18 dramatic 465:1 102:15 641:4,7 642:5 education 163:20 distribution 196:13 376:19 406:6,7 410:21 drastically 246:18 earlier 41:20 72:15 73:16 562:23 202:7 204:24 441:8 462:16,17,20 519:8,9 draw 580:11 191:20 220:11,16 Educational 25:1 26:12 Ditcha 6:21 251:25,25 588:6,7,14,16 591:25 drawings 48:8 50:6 233:5,11 252:3 275:7 31:7 Div 531:23 592:1 595:6,7 598:20 Drexel 85:5 304:23,23 318:10 EE 357:18 dive 168:25 598:20 626:17,18 drill 426:11 336:16 359:22 385:24 EEI 194:9 195:1,3,4

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 15

227:11,24 354:5 604:1 600:1,2,13,14,17,18 642:23 647:3,17 employee 12:18 35:12 enforcement 329:9 effect 179:2 205:16 607:3,4 608:10 612:9 649:12,15,23,25 651:3 661:8 432:11 525:10 552:22 300:9,24 326:3 391:16 612:10,20,21 620:2 electrically 577:3,5 Employment 34:6 557:25 562:24 513:14 552:20 576:14 622:17,18 626:8 electrician 383:23 390:8 EN-13501 135:13 enforcer 336:20 effective 124:10,12 641:18 650:15 396:18 506:21 507:2 enable 151:24 enforcers 24:18 267:5 148:22 149:6 286:24 electric's 575:19 509:9,19 604:17 enact 547:23 606:2 384:21 437:25 513:8 electrical 21:17,25 22:6 electricians 507:3 enclosed 141:7 200:13 enforces 487:3 513:16 25:22,23 28:3,8,10 508:22 509:22 606:2 429:8 enforcing 347:6 391:9 effectively 123:1,20 30:16,19 34:18 62:10 electricity 194:12 202:12 enclosure 105:14 engaging 418:15 598:11 398:11 517:2 87:23 105:5,6,14,15 297:11 298:7,25 258:25 355:16 373:18 engine 561:10 effectiveness 149:11,23 178:18 189:10 196:14 302:21 303:3 367:12 373:21 377:4 447:4,7 engineer 186:20 256:7 164:3 382:24 383:9 198:24 199:1 204:9 367:12 369:8 376:24 448:4 602:3 614:18 260:19 296:22 317:6 effects 433:18 208:13,14,22 209:6 377:19 384:12 385:6 enclosures 105:16 358:6 389:3 393:23 efficiencies 148:25 231:20 232:24 233:7 433:18 435:12 560:1 248:11 615:25 419:19 534:5 efficient 578:12 233:17 234:2,13 236:4 620:8 encompassed 642:7 engineering 44:16 45:17 efficiently 22:16 236:14 239:22 290:4 electricity.' 298:1 encompassing 262:21 47:8 48:5,10 53:13 effort 69:16 128:15 292:22 293:6,20 294:1 Electrification 201:24 Encore 509:17 64:12 83:20 170:9 153:9 191:13 287:24 295:7,8 297:22 298:3 electrocuted 360:5 encourage 51:3 64:6,19 284:18,18 285:14 380:12 523:10 617:14 298:6,12,15,20 300:12 electrocution 360:16 118:12 161:18 168:15 389:14 407:16 446:19 efforts 19:20 23:3 89:1 300:25 301:1 302:23 368:17 538:19 544:15 180:5 214:24 368:9 446:22 452:11 214:18 283:23 509:22 303:18 306:18 308:11 577:7 386:23 406:2 471:19 Engineers 294:16 295:4 553:1 309:4,22 310:17 electrocutions 360:12 508:2 585:22 591:6 546:17 551:25 EFI 144:11 311:17 316:24 319:1 360:14 368:6 540:16 594:24 598:1 engines 87:20 egg 470:13 534:15 322:1,22 323:13 electrolyte 235:14 encourages 20:19 Engison 122:24 egress 89:10,22 91:10 325:11 328:11,20 electromechanical 178:11 English 506:10 507:6 183:15 341:12,19 329:18 331:1 332:13 311:11 ended 18:13 223:21 509:4 536:5 342:9,10 343:6,14,17 333:5 334:10,25 335:4 electronic 16:23 19:5 523:13 enhance 540:14 343:19 344:17 348:5 337:11 345:11,12,15 406:23 endorsement 82:1 enhanced 297:13 351:25 347:19,23 349:13 electronically 14:21 ends 209:7 325:4 enjoy 526:24 eight 159:23 188:16 356:15 359:3 364:24 271:23 energetic 189:22 enormously 319:20 202:7 461:3 482:18 366:19 367:6 369:6 electrons 620:7 646:9 energized 346:2 355:16 Ensembles 147:2 629:9,17 373:9 374:8 377:24 646:23 650:19 355:20 377:3 434:5 ensure 22:5,23 200:21 either 17:11 41:13 54:16 380:18 381:9 382:12 elements 60:7 384:14 energizes 368:4 267:4 301:7 334:21 58:14 160:18 162:24 382:17,21,23 383:3,20 443:9 486:22 487:10 energy 26:17 87:20 343:18 350:2 523:1 199:1 219:25 222:11 383:22,24,25 384:16 elevate 60:19 160:3 176:14 177:2,7 531:5 532:2 585:7 266:11 296:16 360:6 385:25 386:4,18,18,22 eligible 65:1 178:18 179:12 187:15 590:16 594:12 597:14 414:3 558:6 616:3 387:15 390:7 392:23 eliminate 175:2 386:22 188:17,22 189:17,20 605:25 625:11 638:8 625:13 638:11 650:22 393:14 394:10,18 554:20 621:8 189:24 191:22,25 ensuring 343:16 441:8 El 460:19 395:1 396:18,19 397:1 eliminates 139:7 445:8 192:8,21 194:21,24 ENT 490:11 elaborate 123:25 579:20 398:6,10,12 400:20 602:5 646:16 195:12 196:18 197:16 entails 174:15 electric 28:1 70:1 177:21 402:11 404:3 410:9 eliminating 172:14 198:20 201:4,13 enter 188:6 341:19 440:8 178:10,13,14,20,24 416:4,20 417:5,8,9 Elliot 542:20 204:24 207:23 212:9 445:15,24 660:5,6 179:5,22,24 180:2,6 418:16,17 419:19 Elliott 539:24,24 212:21 213:3 215:3,13 entered 16:22 180:24 181:3,7,12,14 426:2,20 428:18 Ellison 4:18 144:10,19 215:20 216:7 217:4,7 entering 442:21 446:25 181:20,22 182:14 429:22 432:1,2,3,5,15 144:21 145:10 218:8 219:17 221:24 448:25 449:1 184:16,18 194:8,11,14 432:18,25 435:24 else's 195:24 653:5 222:2 224:11,24 232:6 enters 445:3,6 447:3,16 194:17,17,22,25 436:5,22,25 440:8 em 75:5 389:19 390:10 233:13,24 234:1,4,8 entertain 18:19 196:15 198:20 199:8 442:16 443:7 444:9 395:5 426:10 236:1 241:19 243:18 entertained 14:16 199:10 201:24 202:2 446:5,13,25 447:13 embed 325:15 243:21,25 244:9 entire 16:13 24:2 37:4 202:13,23 204:8,25 451:24 459:11 461:1 emerged 557:24 245:21 249:25 250:25 57:23 61:4 109:10 205:14,17 214:4 467:17 483:12 484:3 emergency 12:14,15,16 252:6 259:15 261:16 134:9 274:2 279:9 217:10 218:22 236:20 486:20 487:4 489:10 12:20,24 13:9 28:7,24 265:11 268:14 273:20 291:25 307:15 310:2 237:17 297:4 299:15 489:11,15 491:2,3,22 29:1,5,25 31:11,12 274:17 276:22 279:8 388:6 415:16 467:21 300:3,9,14 301:4,9 493:23 495:4 498:1 35:10,14,18 36:2 279:13,24 281:24 491:3 512:4 516:15 302:2,10 316:1,1,2,5 501:17 502:17 503:1 182:7 199:13 219:14 283:16 284:7,15,22 542:23,23 605:5 611:5 316:12,14,16 329:4 507:17 508:17 511:20 279:23 331:14 357:19 285:24 289:6,25 295:7 616:8,24 617:15 336:4 355:8,17 367:22 513:1,25 515:4 519:12 357:24 591:19 613:16 349:20 350:4 384:15 entirely 172:15 374:16 385:22 386:17 520:21,22 523:18 621:6 547:11 600:19 603:1 entirety 170:23 602:6 410:16 418:13 421:24 532:11,14 535:12 emerging 24:9 147:19 604:14 613:10 615:15 entities 180:1 422:8 427:8 484:8 539:6 540:1 547:10 148:5 193:23 194:1 615:16 616:5,10,25 entrance 442:22 443:6 495:3 497:9 502:16 549:4 550:12,20 213:15 214:11,16 618:7 616:3 645:11,19,23 518:6,8 524:20,20 553:25 557:13 559:24 215:3 225:12 235:6 Energy's 179:14 649:3 537:15 544:1 547:11 563:4,10 564:17 565:4 274:25 enforce 199:6 337:1 entrances 341:19 548:14 549:4 551:12 565:12 578:3 591:15 EMI 398:2,9 347:15 516:25 547:24 entrapment 343:9 551:16 553:20 554:24 602:8 606:17,20 emphasis 600:22 571:18 entry 341:11 343:6 447:5 558:20 560:5 564:5,18 609:22 615:13 619:12 emphasize 173:22 enforceable 198:12 entry' 347:3,8 565:1 579:23 587:22 619:15 622:11 631:13 194:23 205:13 287:6 306:15 391:21 enumerating 454:16 592:11 595:16 598:5 635:8 638:18 642:21 employed 248:24 301:13 enforced 286:21 347:12 456:19,20

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 16 enunciate 259:6 equipment's 324:14 evening 315:8,8 388:17 exchanging 397:3 281:16 368:2 445:14 environment 87:1 96:6 327:6 349:2 454:1 514:3 526:23 excited 530:19 445:23 533:2,2 534:12 121:25 122:2 178:15 equivalence 139:22 551:21 563:12 571:3 exclude 183:22 193:25 exit 12:15,23 13:4,5 213:17 257:5,22 equivalent 139:14 579:17 602:19 644:9 259:18 262:10 499:4 35:17,23,24 350:20,21 308:10 442:7 446:11 142:22 224:11 269:4 event 12:11,16,25 16:24 554:14 350:22,23,24 538:19 552:5 571:16 300:15 303:1 579:25 18:10 35:9,19 60:14 excluded 219:4 296:1,5 exits 12:10,14 35:9 environmental 232:6 Ernie 11:16 649:22,23 165:20 250:9,25 251:2 529:24 548:12 expand 161:3 238:5 486:17 629:24 650:7,9 256:12 350:2,19,23 excludes 160:22,23,24 284:9 353:24 363:5 environments 91:12,14 erosion 393:2 412:1 586:19 161:6 162:8 500:10 372:6 383:10 393:18 187:20,23 196:3 314:3 error 481:20 517:10,11 events 19:17 246:20 547:14 expanded 237:3 363:19 EPA 482:18 536:7 257:18,18 284:12 excludes' 213:9 expansion 238:18 354:3 equal 282:25 errors 438:1 454:18 433:12,17 excluding 528:17 369:11 380:9 383:13 equates 419:6 456:22 609:3 eventually 286:18 exclusion 529:11 384:6 385:15 389:13 equipment 28:8 30:5 escalating 148:8 393:10 exclusions 222:13,22,22 390:15 393:3 488:3 31:14 33:22 112:2,4,5 escalators 118:14 everybody 35:4 77:6,20 exclusive 181:7,12 491:6 113:14 115:7 137:3 168:17 78:1 157:5 271:10 204:25 expansions 392:21 146:7,21 148:11,19 especially 24:14 56:21 288:25 313:18 314:13 exclusively 195:17,19 expect 243:8 510:1 150:3 152:11 163:11 58:7 161:12 199:14 333:18 335:4 345:24 275:1 expectation 173:15 187:9 192:25 196:13 213:17 215:4 217:17 349:15 397:8 398:17 excuse 26:18 33:17 34:9 174:4 298:17 448:23 203:8 204:22 280:4 250:6 275:23 288:16 497:5 66:17 80:20 145:20 expectations 59:21 295:9,12 298:6,16 306:18 324:24 369:3 everybody's 420:6 164:16 166:21 174:24 expected 469:18 626:23 299:11 300:7,8,10,20 510:22 561:19 everyday 387:14 246:2,19 317:1 356:5 expecting 392:12 491:15 300:22 308:6,9,12 ESS 179:14 180:24 everyone's 79:18 361:20 437:11 472:23 expense 248:22 288:3 309:25 310:13,15,17 181:7,10,15,20,24 everything's 38:16 39:3 525:11 593:17 634:7 expensive 548:6 311:12,17,20 312:3,3 182:2 186:6 192:15 evidence 135:23 276:11 650:5 experience 24:13 42:4 312:11,14,23 314:14 193:19 196:15 198:18 393:7 540:17 execute 391:16 88:20 96:17 186:22 317:23 318:5,9,14,17 198:19,19 199:3,9 evident 505:25 507:22 Executive 179:23 214:22 369:17 383:22 319:19,22 320:1 200:12 205:18 206:24 508:18,20 509:21 exemplary 23:6 25:13 483:6 552:2 653:13 323:24,25 324:1,5,6 207:25 222:17 237:15 evolution 275:2 exempt 181:16 182:14 experienced 397:25 325:6,8,15 327:2,5,7 247:23 248:1,5,20,20 evolve 247:1 182:18 183:12 215:22 experimental 129:17 327:19,22 328:7,12,13 248:23 249:25 276:21 evolved 269:7 557:23 217:22 649:4 expert 506:3 541:1 328:15,21,22 329:10 285:22,24 286:1 287:3 EVP 557:9,15 exempted 225:3,6 expertise 20:22 24:5 329:19 330:5 331:9,12 357:18 EVPE 558:7 559:2,7 246:15 284:25 645:24 178:18 200:2 414:22 333:2,4,12,16 334:15 ESSB 212:11 273:22 EVSC 558:12 exemption 188:2 189:24 experts 203:13 279:1 334:19,20,21,23 335:1 essence 616:9 exact 374:21 409:21 190:16 192:23 196:11 317:22 393:14 608:6 335:13,24 336:11,23 essential 93:2 129:16 483:8 515:19 608:12 196:12,14,16 198:23 expired 467:8 507:8 337:22 338:3,6,10 150:14 178:19 458:18 exactly 58:5 93:9 114:4 201:15 206:13 245:1 647:8 657:14 341:11,15,15,23 343:6 458:23 630:16 116:4 139:21 149:6 285:7 287:9 explain 18:21 233:7 343:8,10,11,14,19 essentially 184:3 298:10 334:24 357:13 419:9 exemptions 183:4,7 239:19 241:14,15,17 344:15,16,18,20,25 325:9 404:12 456:19 452:1 470:5 541:3 184:11 207:15 216:1 243:9 271:4 309:11 345:2,25 346:3,8,13 465:23 466:6 489:19 553:17 570:18 609:16 217:19,22,24 245:10 389:6 571:8 348:11 349:2,4,7,16 609:13 610:15 623:7 exempts 244:24 explained 113:11 124:9 350:8 351:7,8 354:15 establish 14:2 112:17 examined 561:5 exercise 281:15 142:12 415:16 495:13 387:17 389:25 390:2 123:9 447:25 610:23 examiner's 358:9 394:17 exhaust 258:23 259:2 552:23 598:24 402:15 403:3,4,9,14 established 15:5 18:2 examiners 358:10 260:11,25 explaining 185:14 403:17,18,19,20 404:7 21:24 178:21 318:15 examining 557:21 exhibited 243:20 explains 309:21 404:19,23 405:8,9,10 415:2 563:6 568:15 example 127:1 142:2 exist 59:20 174:5 225:9 explanation 239:10 406:1,12,18,21 407:3 656:14 165:11 172:18 192:4,7 271:20 290:9 325:23 307:18 444:16 407:19,24,25 409:7 establishments 531:25 200:24 235:10 262:12 366:6 369:6 393:8 explanatory 631:18 414:18 416:9 417:2,8 estimated 128:4 130:12 279:15 282:4,18 533:5 534:1,13 544:19 explicit 297:18 417:15 418:17 419:5,8 202:6 245:8 386:8,10 300:10 407:22 445:13 552:6 576:11 explode 187:17 419:23,24 420:2,4 Ethernet 653:1 487:9,25 508:16 existed 173:19 224:7 explosion 160:3,13 426:24 429:10 455:16 Europe 134:17 136:9 515:18 577:2 586:24 444:10 645:1 190:3 231:21 232:25 459:15 469:6 498:12 142:6 615:19 existence 179:4 213:22 233:8,18 234:3 236:4 503:1 505:9 514:5,19 European 135:12 examples 280:6 652:13 531:18 533:4 236:14 237:18 239:22 515:4,5,7,20,22 EV 554:8,12,22 558:13 exceed 55:18 245:11 existing 82:18 111:11,14 246:8 250:16,17 257:2 517:15 519:12,13 evacuate 12:11,23 35:17 exceeded 192:9 279:16 121:22 143:7 194:2 explosions 107:25 524:12 525:10 540:1 evacuated 54:16 exceeding 260:17 205:1 219:23 220:1 257:14 445:20 446:16 540:14,17 541:5 evacuation 12:20 13:9 470:24 225:16,24,25 245:8 448:15 548:14 549:4 553:24 13:10 35:14 36:2,3 exceeds 259:1 261:9 275:1 282:9 explosive 257:5,18 554:23 557:10 558:8 evacuations 448:14 excellent 128:2 213:19 284:5 344:19 345:2 Expo 279:19 560:19 564:17 567:8 evaluate 286:13 515:1 290:7 607:7 359:5 376:1,14 434:21 Exponent 113:7 115:4 569:4 577:1 586:14 evaluated 135:21 569:7 exception 182:5 325:3,7 445:16 533:18 557:15 191:6 220:7 231:4,17 587:6,10 588:17,20 evaluating 550:1 376:12 569:13 575:21 579:21 236:9 239:3 241:1,12 592:4,7 597:3 598:25 evaluation 48:5,10 50:22 exceptions 276:10 584:24 610:3 615:22 251:6 264:24 265:7 614:15,19 625:6 627:7 310:16 335:23 417:3 excess 63:18 642:1 645:16 270:4 278:14 637:21,25 639:1,4 513:7,11 524:1 excessive 55:6,9 519:1 exists 46:3 61:6 142:8,9 export 295:12 297:4 651:6,8,11,12,14,15 eve 388:17 excessively 516:25 166:7 174:2 188:3 298:8,20 299:15 302:2

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 17

302:4 316:20 344:13,14 201:13 207:21 445:12 534:25 535:5 536:25 Fifty-six 167:6 exported 553:20 345:4 405:25 411:2 familiarize 12:10 13:22 545:14,16 546:3 547:7 fight 653:4 exporting 296:4 515:6 584:24 588:3 family 88:16 96:14 554:6 555:18 556:7 Fighting 146:6,20 exposed 100:18 203:12 592:17 189:20 613:15 621:7 566:8,10,22 572:3,23 figure 407:10 463:18 203:21 346:14,17 facility 54:15 116:14 623:20 573:11 583:16 584:3 509:9 646:20 350:3 490:16 629:22 199:15 203:16 285:9 fantastic 186:5 589:15 593:9 596:12 FILE 1:22 629:25 630:8,11 312:4,10 318:9,14 far 53:25 54:4,23 57:9 599:20 602:10 608:11 filed 15:20,24 36:18,22 631:17,20 632:9,17 335:15 346:23 505:15 69:12 82:4 157:7 609:21 612:2 614:24 fill 215:18 277:21 exposure 148:14,20 509:10 514:17 515:2 187:22 190:23 193:21 620:4,18 624:14 628:3 filters 375:19 150:13 182:6 199:12 facing 343:11 224:13 226:13 234:10 632:4 633:21 636:1,25 final 18:17 37:7 52:15 express 43:13 fact 57:19 59:18 60:3,9 234:10 262:21 283:1 640:9 641:19 643:1,19 70:9 84:5 91:19 99:12 expressed 485:13 64:13 69:7 75:23 284:4 304:23 344:23 648:11 652:16,24 101:9 124:19 137:23 529:12 102:16 109:20 161:8 360:9 533:12 540:7 654:10,25 656:5,16 143:11 150:22 157:5 expressing 174:21 165:2 217:12 223:11 553:16 657:24 658:4 659:4,17 167:12,14 175:13 expression 122:22 245:3 275:14 314:4 farm 164:22 favoring 247:23 197:20 436:3 457:11 extend 123:19 149:16 331:7 354:6 385:16 farting 358:23 FCC 651:8,11 460:24 463:24 479:11 205:18 348:15 408:19 415:13 455:10 fascinated 491:25 features 25:3 26:14 493:4 500:22 510:20 extended 269:5 514:19 460:10 467:2 474:10 fashion 419:2 32:25 186:3 380:22 519:21 536:12 589:2 extends 380:13 406:20 483:9 489:22 495:10 fast 105:3 254:10 565:8 February 265:25 592:20 595:23 599:6 extensions 652:14 529:17 535:13 541:2 fatalities 160:4 375:17 federal 87:10 178:25 604:25 611:13 624:1 extensive 23:21 128:15 590:4,5,8 605:22 fatality 355:12,19 373:12 184:21 364:5 547:15 627:12 633:7 636:12 149:3 153:8 179:15 621:12 373:20 374:18,23 552:10 557:16 569:19 639:21 643:5 656:20 223:18 269:3 490:23 facto 364:4 375:14 575:24 finally 27:18 28:11 34:16 extensively 180:25 factor 89:5 90:3 241:22 fault 300:13,16 355:19 feed 248:6 405:13 55:24 214:9 529:12 218:21 426:4 483:8 586:12 358:13,15 368:15 feedback 197:10 270:19 531:24 490:21 factors 260:14 373:19,19 394:22 feeder 401:15,17 447:19 financially 661:9 extent 68:1 126:20 factory 248:17 395:4,5 401:8,9,12,18 539:12,12 541:14,15 find 41:12 49:6 50:6 51:1 127:22 393:4 facts 382:15 412:20 401:19,22 403:4,17,18 543:13,15,17 210:21 251:12 252:9 exterior 446:9 548:23 405:8,20 406:12,18 feeders 404:5 405:13 291:3 368:6 459:16 external 447:4 544:11 factually 60:22 407:2 410:19 420:3,3 445:15 542:22 463:13 561:17,25 549:5 554:24 557:11 Fahrenheit 346:18 420:4 437:22 531:22 feeding 161:1 616:2 567:9 575:16 fail 134:23 391:17 533:17 561:20 576:12 feeds 405:20 finding 455:10 474:10 Extinguishers 32:11 failed 53:8 65:17 118:4 576:14,16,19 577:5 feel 101:1 184:2 197:16 findings 380:12 383:12 Extinguishing 31:10,15 125:14 132:8 138:13 579:25 608:16 609:9 202:13 234:17 369:4 fine 38:17 66:1 117:5 extra 431:23 470:1 479:3 144:2 227:6 240:22 609:11,15 610:5,17 384:20 409:8 466:10 124:11 142:5 235:17 651:1 254:18 263:16 273:15 faults 486:19 529:13,15 478:6 522:13 584:17 330:6 429:7 extract 69:12 292:12 304:22 321:21 529:16 584:22 590:3 594:5 finish 93:7 229:18 extracted 24:10 68:9 339:9 352:21 362:6 favor 17:14 47:8,10 597:5 625:3,4 648:18 477:23 490:13,24 extracts 271:19 371:16 379:15 381:15 48:16 51:14 52:11 feeling 148:8 657:23 491:20 526:24 extraneous 326:15 381:20 391:3 411:22 59:15 61:9 62:15 feelings 384:5 finished 363:5,8,9 366:3 extreme 349:20 359:7 421:19 428:13 430:23 64:12 69:5 70:4 76:3 feels 467:23 366:4,4,13 367:24 417:4 488:20 648:16 439:17 440:12 450:14 76:23 83:21 84:2 feet 88:18 96:16 123:12 368:1,7,8 369:1,2 extremely 155:15 196:8 453:11 457:25 476:7 90:18 125:12 129:13 190:7 341:16 342:4,6 459:22 238:17 310:1,5,18 479:25 493:18 501:12 131:6,8 142:20 143:25 349:3,4,5 354:1 finishes 100:19 331:11 349:19 436:1,8 504:14 511:14 520:11 150:14 162:4 168:6 482:18,19 645:24 finishing 22:17 436:11 515:21 516:7 526:21 556:8 566:23 173:11 176:6 186:19 Feige 158:7 finite 123:4 644:23 573:12 584:5 589:16 191:6 197:9,11,23 fellow 337:21 618:17 Finnegan 5:13 172:7,9 eye 186:12 593:10 596:13 599:21 201:25 202:15 204:15 648:10 174:19,20,24 eyes 347:7 628:5 640:11 659:19 208:11 215:1 216:25 felt 61:23 68:20 82:25 fire 12:22,25 13:1 20:20 failing 345:4 391:18 224:25 231:13 236:9 83:10 93:15 111:4 23:13,16,17 24:19,24 F fails 15:23 16:25 19:7 237:5 239:3 240:19 162:10 269:13 616:19 25:3 26:13,18,25 f 265:9 267:12 578:24 36:21 67:24 176:7 241:12 243:11 263:13 FEMA 363:12 386:5,23 27:13 29:19,25 30:4 F-4 228:5 481:19 646:13 265:8 270:5 274:14 394:4 31:10,12,15 32:11,13 FAA 87:3 failure 49:14 259:5 415:1 281:25 283:16 295:4 fence 373:17,21 375:4,4 32:24 33:15,18,22 fabricated 629:23 failures 433:16 315:1,3,22 322:23 fences 208:24 35:16,19,19 44:1,15 630:19 631:20 632:16 faintly 609:21 323:14 346:24 348:1 fewer 481:18 45:16 47:7 48:11 fabulous 131:5 fair 188:13 387:4 415:2 356:4 365:12,15 fiber 655:11,13 49:19 50:14 54:2,3,13 Facebook 282:5 fairly 68:3 121:18 353:19 373:11 391:2 402:12 field 163:23 248:16,17 54:16,17,17 56:15 faced 307:1 619:3 401:7 576:5 402:18 408:14 416:5 310:16 336:20 374:21 57:17,19,23,24 58:1,8 facilitate 335:23 fall 14:11 183:10 232:1 421:16 440:6 451:8 374:21 406:24 417:3 58:8,11,14 60:14 facilities 28:22 31:14 280:1,10 298:14 456:18 457:24 463:11 434:2 462:4 463:3,18 63:15,25 64:2 68:14 32:15 33:20 57:7 325:17,18 338:8 383:8 464:12 465:21 470:12 500:12 505:6 512:10 69:4,17 70:3 83:9,20 140:25 152:11 169:3 falls 191:16 192:10 475:18 476:6 479:24 513:7,11 523:25 524:1 85:22 88:22 90:2,4 169:17,22 171:14 false 232:3 236:19 485:9,12 491:17 524:11 552:3 558:2 107:24 112:5,6,13 173:23,24 175:16 262:16 267:21 336:9 493:17 501:11 504:2,3 571:19,25 588:19 123:5,12 128:20,22 179:7,8 181:5,24 352:2 504:13 505:1 508:12 607:22 626:24 129:18 130:14 132:16 188:5 201:5 206:24 familiar 14:1 88:1 89:23 511:13 520:10 526:7,9 fields 506:3 552:4 133:5 137:7 142:3 218:23 225:25 287:10 163:25 174:11 178:15 526:20 528:12 532:22 Fifteen 229:16 144:9,23 145:3 146:6

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 18

146:9,20 147:20 148:5 144:13,23 145:1 152:15 153:1 156:9 flooding 363:10,15 619:17 624:5,23 148:14 149:3 150:8 146:10,22,24 152:8 157:18 164:8 168:4 floor 17:9 18:24 19:9 627:16 628:13 633:12 151:23 152:5,13 153:23 158:8,19,21 176:4 194:5 197:7 34:25 37:19 40:8,10 634:13 636:16 637:10 153:10 154:7,20 156:5 163:14 164:18 167:1 202:16 210:23 211:22 45:2 49:20 52:21 638:19 639:16,25 156:16 160:13 165:19 169:6,17,20 176:17 221:17,22 227:1 53:17 63:17 64:25 640:19 641:19 643:10 165:21 169:2,16,21 177:3,5 182:12,13 232:20 240:17 241:22 65:6 66:25 70:13 76:8 644:13 647:18 649:19 170:22 171:12,16 183:14 184:24 186:4 253:13 254:13 263:11 84:9 86:12 91:23 656:24 175:18 186:9,19,20 186:11 188:6,11 191:7 272:21 273:10 275:22 92:18 95:1,20 97:17 floors 369:19 188:18 189:7,8 190:15 192:7 194:21 197:21 277:10 287:18 291:17 98:12 99:15 100:10 Florida 31:4 83:22 608:9 193:15 195:12 196:6 203:3,22,24 213:13 292:6 299:2,16 304:17 101:12 102:6 103:8 620:2 196:12 200:1 203:10 215:7,24 221:4 223:13 307:23 321:4,16 322:6 104:1 106:6 108:17 flow 49:23 54:19 57:3 203:18 206:15,22,25 225:22 226:1,4 235:5 338:3 339:4 349:4 117:17 121:9 124:25 64:3 67:13 68:4,8 207:5,6,25 216:11,12 239:1 241:21,25 352:16 361:12 362:1 125:23 131:23 134:1 69:13,20 234:5,6 217:10 219:21 221:24 242:12,13 243:1,1,24 370:21 371:11 378:20 138:3,22 139:20 235:12,12,13 250:18 222:25 223:16,17 244:15,18 249:18 379:9,18 381:16 140:17 143:16 147:22 295:7 297:5 299:10 224:1,6,9,15,18 229:5 255:9,19 258:17 399:17 400:6 405:2 147:25 157:11 159:12 547:11 613:11 620:10 231:20 232:24 233:7 265:18,23 266:13,17 411:17 421:1,14 162:20 163:1 167:22 630:1,9,12 631:20 233:17 234:2 236:4,14 266:18 267:15 268:9 424:11 428:8 430:18 170:13 175:22 178:2,8 632:9 646:9 650:20 237:18 239:7,9,22 270:3 271:2,8 277:5 439:12 449:21 450:9 181:11,15 184:9 flow' 631:17 243:22,23 247:21 278:15,21 280:18 453:6,19 457:22 185:22 209:17 211:15 flowing 185:17 646:23 248:19 249:1,21 250:2 281:7 282:20 292:25 460:16 464:10 473:8 212:16 218:19 220:4 flux 122:8,8,9 250:5,8,10,14,19,22 293:21,24 294:24 475:16 476:4 479:22 226:19 231:8 240:11 flywheels 191:23 232:7 251:11,15,17,20,22 297:7 299:6,9 309:15 493:15 501:9 503:24 241:4 253:1,20 255:1 236:20,24 252:5,8,15,16 254:22 311:11 322:24 323:21 504:11 511:11 520:8 263:4 265:1 272:11 FM 190:14 255:25 256:6 263:22 331:4,7 336:16 342:15 526:5,18 527:24,24 273:3 274:2 290:17 FMVSS 548:1 549:1 268:1 271:5 279:9,19 353:4,10 354:2 356:13 532:19 534:9 536:23 291:25 294:19 299:5 552:11 557:23 558:1 279:23,25 283:2 284:3 356:18 361:19 362:12 541:21 542:5 545:12 304:10 309:5 313:5 561:20 569:20 575:25 284:8 285:7 286:18 362:17 365:5 371:5 546:1 551:20 555:16 320:11 323:5 328:25 576:15 579:22,24 289:17 357:25 380:16 376:8 381:13,15,17,23 556:5 563:11 566:6,20 331:2 333:19 334:4,5 foam 58:4 380:18 382:18,23 390:22 394:4 403:6 568:20 571:1 572:21 338:21 346:20 349:14 Foam-Water 31:18 32:8 383:3 386:9,13 393:25 407:12,14 409:2 573:9 579:16 583:14 350:9 352:9 353:8 focus 55:3,12 234:11 394:1,6,9 395:1 413:19,22,22,24 414:5 584:1 589:13 593:7 360:24 362:15 366:6 247:9 274:24 278:23 398:12 431:17 432:9 414:13,14 416:23 596:10 599:18 611:25 367:14 368:14 370:8 focused 552:1,5 437:20 443:24 446:4,5 419:3,7 442:23 444:14 624:12 628:1 632:1 371:3,23 376:20 fold 164:16 446:8,12 486:19 462:22 482:22 499:17 633:19 635:17,24 377:20 378:7 379:3,25 folks 39:2 40:4 72:25 487:10 488:12,21 499:25 500:7 516:4 636:23 640:7 643:17 399:4,24 401:1 403:23 165:21 191:3 200:25 491:20 584:19 586:7 524:13 528:14,19 644:6 648:7 649:20 404:4,18,25 406:9 201:13 222:8,8 387:6 586:10,11,13,16,16,16 529:20 530:22 540:18 651:23 652:19 653:23 407:6 411:10 413:13 387:12,21 388:2,7 586:19,20 587:7,9,17 544:3 546:20,24 654:6,8 656:1 659:10 416:21 418:2 420:13 580:10 613:19 618:15 588:8 606:18 621:1 555:24 556:23 563:16 fix 60:21 166:7 222:1,12 421:7 422:2 423:4 follow 12:21 35:14 82:3 628:22 630:14 566:14 578:7 581:14 348:20 377:6 472:23 424:4,23 426:25 428:1 172:21 281:25 302:16 firefighter 149:9 150:16 600:4,7 601:11 603:10 518:1 428:22 430:11 431:6 415:2 419:15 453:21 155:16 623:14 603:12 604:20 605:5 fixed 119:22 120:10,15 436:1,19 437:2 439:5 465:4 606:10 648:20 firefighters 147:17 148:6 611:12,19 617:23 206:23 348:23 439:24 449:10 450:2 follow-up 14:15,23 150:11 152:21,24 618:1 619:24 620:25 flame 91:1 102:15,15 450:25 452:24 454:6 18:20,20,23 41:8 154:14,20 189:9 190:6 628:19 630:21 634:6 105:16,24 109:16,22 457:16 458:9 460:21 followed 13:2 35:21 190:6 203:3 209:14 637:20 641:20,21,24 148:11 436:13 486:8 462:21 464:3 465:14 550:4 652:16 235:3 243:24 289:15 645:14 646:6,14 655:8 486:25 488:18 475:4,22 476:18 following 12:23 15:2,21 623:18 firsthand 390:6 flames 161:5 479:16 481:13 482:23 17:6 18:15 19:10 firefighting 89:1 147:3,4 Fisher 11:8 604:13,13 flaming 110:17 482:23,23 483:19 25:18 35:17 36:19 149:9 200:2 617:7,7 flammable 160:1,2,14 489:3 492:7 493:9 37:10 41:21 42:8,9 fireproof 632:14 fishing 396:2 200:12 250:15 258:24 494:2 498:2,5,19 80:13 87:18 116:23 fires 54:12 88:21 171:18 Fisk 105:4 259:3,20 446:1 501:2,20 504:5,20 167:1 295:21 408:16 274:17 380:20 382:17 Fiske 4:5 93:24,25 105:2 Flannery 3:24 64:10,11 509:9 511:5,23 514:11 414:11 453:20 455:8 385:25 386:2,5,9,12 105:10,13 301:12,13 flash 346:5,12 350:4,23 519:10 520:1 522:4 459:13 386:13,14,14,17,17,20 301:18,20,24 498:23 flashing 13:2 35:20 525:20 526:12 528:4 following' 117:1,3 394:12 432:9 445:20 498:24 516:11,12 flawed 324:4 532:16 536:16 537:20 follows 18:24 42:13 445:25 533:22,23 flex 431:13 435:13 545:1,19 546:22 food 118:13,14 168:16 firm 63:18 fits 288:23 308:19 533:15 551:18,23 555:5,22 168:17 411:25 firmly 350:24 559:1 fitted 89:20 flexed 529:19 556:22 565:20 566:12 foot 342:8 first 21:6,12 25:19 42:25 five 15:24 19:2 36:23 flexibility 528:24 529:1 567:17 572:10 573:2 footnote 398:15 43:6,21,23 54:1 68:2 38:8 40:24 46:24 53:3 flexible 562:1 575:7 580:25 583:2,20 force 31:4 251:10,22 76:3 82:17 85:7,17,20 54:13 65:12 69:25 flickering 505:18 584:11 585:19,23 384:22 436:9 490:22 86:20 89:2 107:10,20 70:1,20 84:16 92:4,5 flies 614:20 588:22 589:6,23 591:2 543:16 558:3 107:22 111:3 116:24 95:7 97:24 99:22 flip 479:8 591:7,16,21 592:25 forced 616:7,23 117:4 120:1,11,13 101:18 103:14 106:13 flip?' 505:21 593:23 595:8 596:3,21 Ford 567:3,24 126:11 128:5 130:21 117:24 118:20 125:8 floating 73:6 598:2,22 599:11 600:6 foregoing 661:5,12 130:25 132:20 133:6,8 132:5 138:9 143:23 flood 338:5,6 363:12,14 606:22 611:17 612:14 forever 419:11

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 19 forget 17:18 248:9 251:5 258:16 friends 377:9 636:13 639:19 643:4,7 92:14,23 94:7 95:16 forgot 182:9 345:18 264:23 269:24 275:19 front 74:18,24 130:22 656:18,21 659:20 95:25 97:5 98:8,18 653:10 278:11 283:13 294:10 131:1 220:13 236:9 661:8 100:6,15 102:2,11 form 276:9 419:1 301:11 305:12 311:3 269:9 388:23 408:25 Furthermore 60:10 103:23 104:7 105:21 format 82:24 185:3 320:2 321:24 329:14 505:16 116:5 136:7 360:13 108:12,24 113:22 formed 277:1 310:7 339:25 340:14 344:4 frozen 210:5,6 601:25 639:2 116:19 121:1,16 124:7 417:11 436:12 484:6 344:12 347:24 351:2 frozen' 210:9 fuse 312:6 425:4,7,12,14 125:18 126:4 130:4 577:7 356:4,4 360:20 373:25 FSI 88:7 426:5,8,9 429:4,6,6,7 133:22 134:6 136:19 former 109:13 130:11 398:21 400:18 407:12 FTA 87:13 429:13,25 430:1 138:18 139:3 141:18 301:14 347:7 408:12 413:8 418:23 fuel 161:1 234:14 252:7 650:23 152:18 193:3 237:25 formerly 25:2 551:24 423:10 424:18 427:12 432:7 443:5 448:6 fuses 425:5 429:13 268:22 280:25 320:4 forms 389:23 428:15 438:4 448:20 600:19 future 19:17 180:14 398:22 448:21 457:1 Formula 185:9 453:25 455:24 456:15 fulfilling 597:12 200:21 246:17 265:12 460:4 485:4 553:9 formulation 122:21 456:24 458:2 460:2 full 24:4 206:17 392:14 280:22 328:23 369:10 628:9 632:21 634:1,19 forth 62:10 130:15 461:17 462:15 464:15 Fuller 2:9 20:7 469:12 471:16 569:5,8 640:15,25 246:24 278:5 391:12 465:7 470:8 476:11 fully 61:2 131:7 154:1 579:6 615:12 gear 149:6,22 150:12 487:12 480:2 481:8,18 482:7 162:3 348:19 407:4 154:19 155:17 181:9 forthcoming 258:5 485:2 489:5 492:18 486:10 568:17 G 216:3 314:4,10 342:3 Forty-eight 39:17 493:20 495:23 499:7 function 295:17 298:10 G 81:11,21 82:6,18,19,23 342:7 429:8 512:6,6,8 forward 35:1 79:4 80:13 501:14 504:16 508:10 319:5 586:21 622:6 G3 83:3 513:4 517:17,24 89:22 130:22 155:15 511:16 514:13 520:13 627:1 gain 69:15 523:21,25 524:10 171:6 174:22 185:5 521:9,24 524:6 525:15 functions 588:21 gaining 283:22 gear' 512:9,10 517:10 212:12 258:6,11 527:4 532:8 546:12 fundamental 335:3 gains 318:17 geared 191:25 271:15 286:11 287:14 554:2 556:12 561:2 fundamentally 324:4 Gallagher 2:11 20:15 Gedrie 565:17,17 287:15 288:5,6 301:6 566:25 568:18 573:14 329:25 341:14 491:23 Gallo 11:16 649:22,23 Gedry 6:23 252:22,22 348:13 398:13 471:21 573:25 574:25 576:19 Fundamentals 26:15 650:7,9 272:6,6 290:13,13 562:4 615:16 619:2 584:7 589:18 593:12 29:19 30:3 32:21 gallon 285:6 313:8,8,25 370:5,5 forwarded 15:11,16 596:15 599:23 604:16 funded 153:10 gallons 224:9 285:4 377:23,23 449:8,8 145:21 606:14,25 608:7,21 furnace 141:7 game 417:20 474:19,19 544:22,22 found 13:11 36:4 41:10 609:19 612:6 613:22 further 15:9 20:5 37:20 gap 152:23 156:8 172:19 555:2,2 572:7,7 43:21 44:4 85:17 86:1 615:7 619:10,22,25 40:11 52:13,18 64:21 246:22 580:20,20 581:12 107:20 108:4 120:11 622:15 624:18 628:7 70:5 73:17,19 74:17 gaps 215:18 276:23 582:1 120:19 127:18,23 632:19 633:24 636:6 84:22 91:17 94:20,21 277:21 general 13:11 27:14 36:4 133:6,14 144:23 145:6 637:4 640:13 642:18 97:9,11 99:9,11 101:7 garage 386:6,8,11,14,14 44:18 45:19 46:2,14 146:21 147:6 158:19 652:20 103:2,4 104:21,21 386:17,19,22 387:20 46:20,24 128:19 129:2 159:1 163:3 169:17,25 four-fold 213:13 105:18 106:3,19 397:15 564:21,21 163:13 175:19 222:22 177:2,10 188:24 201:3 four-year-old 360:4 111:15 117:7,11 118:5 565:3,9 236:23 299:6 302:17 269:7 293:21 294:3 fourth 126:17 128:7,8 124:16,21,23 131:11 garages 33:2 386:4 310:10 384:16 405:6,7 296:15 329:7 374:22 129:2 131:17 317:16 131:21 132:9 137:21 Garbuck 10:22 525:17 417:7 440:15 512:3 374:25 375:1 377:7,14 482:23 142:15 143:9,14 144:3 525:17 550:7 614:2 641:25 415:22 429:17 432:4 FPE 186:19 150:7 155:5 156:5,25 gas 158:23 160:14,18 642:9 433:19,24 434:5,12 FR 244:18 530:23 531:8 157:2,9,23 166:15 162:19 163:14 165:5 generally 88:16 96:15 525:8 597:2 531:11 556:20 167:10 168:9 170:25 200:12,16 237:17 123:11 142:23 220:24 foundation 149:4 153:10 frame 308:14 174:17 175:8,10 176:8 250:18 256:21,24,25 336:21 513:5,10 153:11 247:20 252:4 framing 483:2 187:24 200:24 225:18 257:16,23 258:19,20 571:11 580:14 315:6,14 382:19 383:1 frankly 655:24 225:21 226:5 238:18 258:22,24 259:3,4,6 generate 251:16 383:7,12 443:24 Fred 3:7 30:25 31:1,3,9 239:15 257:6 262:24 260:8,13,18,23,24 generated 208:18 448:12 31:20 208:4,4,7,9,11 278:21 283:11,11 262:12,14,17,18 653:14 four 44:13 46:17,23 47:4 358:20,20,25 390:20 292:13 295:21 304:4,7 431:21 432:4,7,17,23 generating 87:21 184:16 51:6 62:1,2 66:18 80:7 390:20 391:2 409:12 304:8 337:3,7 351:17 434:2 436:18 439:21 200:17 216:3 620:14 83:18 86:7 90:16 409:12 463:7,8,11 352:5,6 369:11 383:1 440:5 441:1,3,4,5,6,8 generation 96:17,25 92:13 94:6 95:15 97:4 491:9,9,13 499:24,24 385:7 411:4,8 423:16 441:17,20 443:4,5,5 100:19 186:6 204:23 98:7 100:5 102:1 500:2,4,7 516:22,22 423:25 424:1 427:10 444:7 446:3 447:9,23 388:18 601:1,2 613:18 103:22 105:20 106:20 609:20,20 621:20,20 427:21,23 430:7,9 448:4,5 450:18 451:7 614:17 108:11 109:25 113:21 Frederic 2:17 25:19,20 434:24 438:24 439:2 Gaseous 31:10 generator 304:1 570:18 115:23 116:18 120:25 25:21 26:1 441:11 443:20 452:19 gases 158:5,18 159:24 618:7 121:15 124:6 125:16 free 441:9 478:6 452:22 457:9,12 160:1,2 259:21 generators 298:5,10 126:3 129:8 130:3 freely 20:21 463:21,25 479:9,13 gasses 107:6,19 148:14 303:2 133:21 136:18 138:15 freeze 409:19 492:17 493:3,7 494:18 166:2 237:15 250:15 generic 129:7,13 139:2 141:17 147:13 freight 436:16 494:19 499:23 500:21 346:19 440:19 442:23 genesis 653:7 154:12 162:6 170:7 Fremont 26:9 500:25 510:18,21 446:1 449:2 gentleman 48:18 49:16 183:5 184:6 191:3,4 frequency 395:13 519:20,23 531:15 gauge 455:17 456:8 51:6 59:11 72:14 80:6 199:22 201:19,20,21 frequent 148:13 536:10,13 565:1 466:19 467:2 468:2,20 83:18 85:16 207:19 204:12 205:6 216:2 frequently 269:8 610:4 588:24 589:3 592:19 468:21,22,23,25 469:3 222:21 223:1,5 224:13 218:5 220:5,17 227:8 637:21 592:22 595:22,24 469:6,8,17,19,20 246:13 252:3 301:15 227:22 228:14 229:3 Friday 652:1 599:4,7 611:10 623:24 472:19 301:24 373:17 390:2 231:3 235:23 238:22 friend 541:4 624:2 627:10,13 633:6 Gavitro 419:20 397:22 407:13 581:13 240:24 241:13 247:4 friendly 49:8 631:3 633:9 635:23 636:10 GBH 86:8,17 90:17 gentlemen 12:8 20:1

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 20

43:18 46:25 56:10 448:23 515:12 528:16 190:21 191:2 192:19 503:14,18 504:19,23 Gonzalez 12:18 35:12 68:23 72:2 83:11 528:19,25 529:5 563:7 195:21,22,23,24 507:7 508:7 509:14 good 12:7 19:25 35:3 90:12 93:19 99:5 gives 48:25 173:17 199:10 201:18 203:5,6 510:15,17 511:3,18,22 50:14 59:13 62:9 81:3 101:2 102:24 104:17 561:25 569:3 203:11,21 204:1,3 512:1,18 513:18 83:24 85:15 111:21 107:17 111:16 119:16 giving 179:1 475:2 205:16,20 207:7 514:13 516:9,20 518:3 140:22 142:12 143:2 119:20 120:9 124:2 glad 207:20 305:9 216:22 219:4,5,9 518:20 519:7,19,25 152:12 172:7 174:19 129:24 133:4 136:14 Glenn 34:5,7 224:13 229:17 239:7 520:15,18,25 521:15 187:18 196:20 199:23 144:22 146:19 151:7 glitch 38:13 246:17 248:8 252:8,17 522:3,7,21 524:3,17 208:24 225:11 270:12 158:17 162:13 169:15 global 144:11 190:14 264:2 271:8 278:2 525:15,19,25 527:17 274:13,15 284:13 172:2 177:1 216:21 251:25 284:22 294:15 281:12 282:20 285:1 527:20 528:3,9 530:1 286:8 287:6,16 294:12 230:13 293:19 437:3 295:3 307:14 309:22 285:25 286:20 287:11 530:14,20 532:5,19 299:3 313:2 332:2 490:6 532:16 587:11 310:8,20 402:14 288:7 290:2 301:5 533:20 534:9,17,19,21 344:22 388:17,17 606:22 619:17 404:20 415:15 546:16 308:8 313:21 315:7,13 534:24 535:2,6,18,23 393:13 395:9 396:1 George 3:14 10:13 11:19 547:6 567:5 638:20 315:14,19 319:14 535:25 536:9,15 398:5 429:11 451:11 47:6,7 81:11 83:19,20 globalized 552:2 324:18,22 333:2 537:19,23 538:20 454:1 551:21 563:12 488:10,10 527:25,25 globally 140:3 552:3 334:22 338:8 339:12 539:19 541:21 542:4,8 571:3 579:17 582:15 528:11,11 532:21,21 gloom 448:23 339:13 341:18 348:13 542:14 543:6,24 582:16 602:19,19 534:10,18,20,23,25 GM 301:16,25 348:14,14 349:25 544:20,25 545:6 607:9 644:9 653:19 535:4,4,4,7 632:3,3 go 12:23 20:5 35:16 350:2 367:25 368:3 546:21 547:1 549:6 660:7 633:3 635:19,19 38:19 39:5,5,19,21 376:3,5,7,8,10 389:11 550:25 551:19 553:7 Goodson 8:14 358:5,5 652:22,22 47:21 48:12 49:6,12 390:5 394:19 400:13 554:2,25 555:4,10 393:22,22 395:20,23 geothermal 377:1 50:21 53:25 55:22 403:5 407:11,12,12,20 556:14,21 557:1 559:9 396:1,4 German 130:7,8 60:10 69:10 72:24,25 408:2,18 410:1 415:9 560:23 562:7 563:11 Google 282:5 283:8 gesundheit 534:18 75:5 76:12 81:13,18 415:23 417:25 423:20 564:8 565:15,19,25 368:5,6 535:9,10 143:1 155:1,3 156:13 425:6 426:22,25 567:10,12,16,20 Gorgan 648:9,10 654:9,9 Gethrie 9:22 437:7,8 165:15 185:15 191:2 427:16 429:10 452:15 569:21 570:23 572:5,9 Gorgon 11:4 564:10,11 getting 69:21 116:2 199:21 203:7 205:16 463:17 464:25 465:2 572:15 574:7,21,23 gotta 331:22 332:7 161:4 164:16 188:3 206:16 212:22 224:14 469:12 471:17 474:24 575:6,10 577:16 govern 13:16 550:10 191:4 197:10 205:9 230:17 250:7,15 254:6 476:9 489:4 495:17 579:12 580:19,24 governed 200:14 213:19 289:21 357:9 363:17 260:13 267:3,9 284:7 498:6,6 505:3 517:25 581:5,10,15,24 582:2 554:9,23 388:8 395:21,23 287:14 289:7 301:23 521:12 522:17,19 582:5,13,17,19,22 governing 13:15 17:23 396:11 411:25 520:21 305:21 314:7,9 319:14 524:13 526:22,23 583:8 584:10,14,25 232:11 242:22 266:8 576:4 603:22 621:5 322:17 332:7 336:20 531:3 534:21 546:11 585:24 587:13,19 309:17 413:25 660:2 348:13,22 356:12 551:3,19 561:24,25 588:4,13,15,23 589:5 government 178:25 GFCI 353:25 354:3 357:3 360:14 376:22,23,24 576:21 582:6 586:25 589:22 590:1,10,12 184:22 364:10 552:10 358:22 360:1 363:5,19 388:6 391:19,22 407:9 589:1 590:10 591:19 591:8,23 592:9,18,24 553:2 366:15 369:21 372:6 407:12,12,18 417:25 606:8 610:12 619:3,20 593:17,19,22 594:1,8 grabbed 207:9 271:25 374:12 376:8 377:13 419:25 470:1 471:16 619:21 620:24 621:9 595:1,14,21,25 596:2 375:3 377:17 385:4,14 408:7 471:18 476:9 478:2,3 621:10 643:23 646:19 596:20,24 597:7 598:3 grace 150:1 154:5 538:4,8,14,18 539:9 489:4 495:18 498:7 652:18,19 653:3 598:18 599:3,8,10 156:14 539:13 540:14 541:5,8 510:12 551:3,19 657:21,24 658:1,23,24 600:5,10 602:12 604:8 graciously 19:21 541:19 542:2,12,24 562:21 580:9 581:8 659:1,25 660:1 606:14,25 608:7,21,25 grad 394:16 576:9,14,18 577:7 586:2 594:3 605:11,13 Golinveaux 10:2 453:13 609:19 611:9,16 grade 216:9,9 447:5 578:19 580:1 606:4 619:21,21,24 453:16,18 454:5,10,20 612:13,17 615:1 617:2 gradual 59:2 GFCI's 367:17 620:10 652:19 657:24 455:21 456:15,24 619:9,20,25 620:19 graduate 358:8 GFCIs 335:1 366:7,11 goal 122:6 387:22 457:4,8,14 458:8,12 621:18 622:14,21,25 grammatical 233:6 369:11 376:22,23 417:21 418:19 563:19 459:2,24 460:16 461:8 623:23 624:4,22 625:1 242:12 454:17 456:21 403:7 543:19 569:10 461:16,24 462:14,18 625:7 626:2,15 627:9 Grand 383:18 GFI 397:5 540:10,11,20 goals 278:5 463:5,9,21 464:2,20 627:15 628:12,16 Grande 382:9,11 392:6 541:17 God 377:6 477:20 658:9 464:25 465:13,17 631:4,23 632:19 633:5 393:24 GFIC 398:4 goes 21:12 23:12 25:19 467:7 468:4,14 470:8 633:11 634:5,9,12,16 grandmother's 363:11 GFP 403:14 26:22 27:23 28:17 471:22 472:2,6,9,13 634:24 635:14,22 granted 16:15 GFPE 403:8 406:16,16 29:11 69:9 160:15 472:15 473:7 474:18 636:4,7,9,15 637:9,13 Graser 10:4 454:1,2,12 407:17,21,23 408:6 174:22 183:19 187:21 474:24 475:4,10 638:1 639:10,18,24 454:12 456:16,16 409:16 190:23 250:22 303:5,6 476:11,17,22 477:2,5 640:18,22 641:9 458:4,4,14,14 464:17 girl 360:4 313:15 344:23 364:1 477:7,10,16,20,23 642:15 643:3,9 644:8 465:9,9,19,19 476:13 give 21:6,11 55:1 59:21 372:21 534:18 535:9,9 478:1,5,9,11,15 479:7 644:12,16 647:7 648:4 476:13,25 477:4,6,12 73:2 80:7 126:23 560:2 620:9 479:14 480:6,11,14 649:9,20 650:5,8 477:17,19 478:4,8 130:19 157:5 166:20 going 25:10 34:24 35:1 481:6,12,16 483:20 651:23 652:4,10,18 480:3,9,9,12 182:9 192:4 210:23 39:4,19 40:7 54:18,19 484:17 485:2,7,11,24 653:23 654:2,6,8 gray 10:18 293:12 216:22 220:13 305:6 54:19 59:25 60:24 488:8 489:4 490:5 655:2 656:1,17,23 325:13 494:25 495:2,3 474:24 475:1 482:17 64:8 65:24 72:3,8 491:8,11 492:3,16 657:14,16,18,20,23 502:13,15 489:18 508:16 546:8 73:15 74:19 75:19,19 493:2,8 494:1,6,20 658:8,11,14,17,20,23 great 30:22 165:9 182:22 574:23 644:2 660:1 75:23 78:9,12,21 79:3 495:17,22 496:3 497:6 659:10,13,16,24 314:14 341:25 477:12 given 25:12 171:13 79:4,5,9 80:4 86:23 497:11,14,17,22 660:12 621:5 222:12 231:25 233:10 130:6 151:19,23 152:4 498:20 499:7,22 500:1 gong 70:2 greater 89:13 152:9 241:17 290:25 305:5 152:4,7 165:15 168:25 500:3,6,20 501:1,19 gonna 188:21 509:4 163:2 200:10 328:21 305:24 384:5 438:12 181:16 186:12,23 501:24 502:8 503:2,12 620:10 341:16 386:13 407:20

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 21 green 17:20 38:3 40:18 guidelines 87:14 141:14 harmonics 384:13 174:2 315:1,2 346:25 516:13 520:14,17,20 62:15,15 74:4 76:11 171:21 213:25 425:13 harmonize 444:8 hear 13:3 35:21 37:7 520:20 521:11,11 Gregory 8:7 346:23,23 Guideway 119:22 Harrah 9:13 419:18,18 102:7 108:21 161:23 522:1,1,9 584:8,8,16 grid 182:16 185:1,17 120:10,15 Harris 6:7 201:22,22 170:16 233:9 241:8 589:19,19 590:3 186:14 200:24 299:13 guinea 372:16 Hartford 32:18 302:17 308:8 337:23 593:14,14,18,20 594:3 547:10 620:14 Gurnee 5:19 185:25 Hartwell 2:17 25:19,21 476:23 570:5 606:6 596:17,17 597:1 grommets 483:1 186:1 25:21 208:4,5,7,9,11 630:15,19 632:23 624:20,20 625:3 gross 87:18 89:13 guts 519:5 358:20,20,25 390:20 heard 42:13 53:18 60:20 herrings 285:21 ground 298:14 358:13 gutted 369:18 390:21 391:2 409:12 62:9 71:14 141:21 Herschel 237:25,25 358:15 366:3,5 368:15 guy 62:10 388:23 389:4 409:12 463:7,8,11 142:11 189:13 190:13 hesitates 24:11 372:10 373:19 374:25 509:11 491:9,9,13 499:24,24 191:20 196:10,10,19 het 421:11 375:5,7 394:22 395:5 guys 40:9 283:24 336:22 500:2,4,7 516:22,23 196:22 199:8 207:1 Hey 332:17 505:4,17 401:8,9,11,18,22 478:24 609:20,21 621:20,21 235:4 238:13,15 Hi 47:6 172:7 174:19 403:4,11,17,18 405:8 Hartwell's 362:25 239:10 251:8,9 278:13 194:7 392:4 405:3 405:20 406:12,17 H hashed 479:5 278:25,25 286:4,22 509:16 407:2 410:19 420:3,4 H 128:19 129:3 haste 214:21 305:1,2 317:8 349:22 Hickman 8:17 360:21,22 448:3 529:13,15,16 ha-- 223:1 hastily 215:10 220:10 350:4 356:3 363:22 high 48:3 58:4,8,9 161:5 531:21 538:17 541:7 habitable 365:8,9 hat 222:21 223:5 365:3,13 373:22 165:5 187:18,20,23 542:3 544:12 576:10 hair 354:20 hate 527:17 381:22 389:17,19 200:2 290:9 295:16 576:12,13 577:5 half 202:4 342:6,7 349:3 Hattler 3:15 48:20,21 413:16 448:24 481:16 372:15 395:6 486:16 601:16,20 609:11 447:13 607:25 havoc 238:9 498:3 505:6,12 546:8 488:16 498:14 506:21 grounded 403:10 577:3 hall 509:7 660:2 Hayes 5:21 7:2 186:18 559:21 562:12,16 506:22 552:9 563:20 602:1 607:24 609:8,16 hallelujah 281:4 186:19 187:7 204:14 574:18 578:2 591:17 651:19 grounding 214:12 Halogenated 31:15 204:14,17 229:4,4 595:9 600:20 633:1,3 high-rise 482:7 354:15 437:23 438:15 Hamilton 144:11 185:10 254:21,22 255:7,9,14 647:19 653:12 654:24 higher 141:12 160:11 533:18 578:14 601:22 hand 74:17,19,23 75:13 255:16,18,20,22,22,25 hearing 71:9 210:9 161:16 167:8 224:14 608:5,5,19 78:11,19,21,22 193:18 256:3,5 257:25 263:20 285:20 413:5 422:5 247:24 363:8 489:1 grounds 299:9 205:18 215:2 302:13 263:22 264:2,5,8,13 570:9 655:23 group 21:22 24:3 93:5 375:6 527:23 571:5 287:20,20 heat 100:19 126:14,15 highlight 279:2 102:14 135:4 137:1 650:12 657:21 658:1,5 hazard 58:9 90:4 165:1 126:16 127:19,20 highlighted 160:3 154:3 187:12 195:13 658:9 187:19,23 188:14 128:4,6,6 148:12 281:16 569:2 212:11 213:5 223:14 Handbook 159:24 194:22,25 204:10 243:20,23 247:18 highlights 386:7 224:24 232:20 241:19 handle 171:14 173:23 216:19 233:2,25 239:8 386:19 388:24,25 highly 178:14 185:21 242:15,19 243:12 262:8 387:22 280:13 328:22 354:11 heating 87:21 164:20 237:15 244:12,20 245:23 handled 83:1 307:15 359:7 366:6 368:2 384:14 Highway 132:16 133:5 247:10,14,22 248:12 561:23 377:12 385:16,17 heavily 23:20 163:21 557:17 562:18 563:17 248:13 249:2 252:2 handles 296:19 440:22 442:3 445:23 201:7 603:9 564:1 571:22 256:18 261:18 264:11 handling 29:6 107:6,18 568:25 heavy 151:17 Highways 133:11 140:3 271:13,13 273:21,23 108:1 169:22 175:17 hazard's 181:19,21 height 48:4 489:13 Hilbert 8:13 293:9 355:4 282:15 310:7 417:11 186:6 hazardous 24:6 25:4 held 149:23 221:9 252:3 355:5,6 356:8 364:21 417:11 435:13 437:11 hands 78:24 333:12 165:20 178:15 199:12 265:21 270:6 277:2 364:22,23 365:18 443:21 448:11 484:6 Hang 657:16 204:9 237:13 248:1 300:5 409:9 414:15 373:6,7,8 374:18 517:6,7 539:25 542:23 happen 58:25 75:19 78:9 359:6 438:21 440:19 453:20 497:4 551:13 381:6,7,8 402:7,9,10 561:16 605:19 617:25 143:6 257:12 359:12 hazards 58:5 89:15 hell 127:3 187:3 415:24 416:1,3 653:8 359:24 562:4 148:12 166:6 171:15 Hello 164:9 554:4 567:2 Hill 85:6 group's 24:3 happened 135:4 246:21 182:6 183:18 186:22 604:13 649:22 hinder 200:23 groups 22:11 23:21,23 281:17 284:12 374:23 188:10 200:11 201:3 help 42:2 111:8 112:9 hindrance 51:3 88:25 24:7,8 195:14 201:8 375:18 394:24 517:12 201:14 231:19,21,21 127:16 130:18 180:13 hire 325:15 248:8,9,10,15,16 happening 205:23 231:23,24 232:2,4,6,8 187:11 318:4 319:20 hired 582:2 277:2 287:3 650:1 271:18 329:24 395:11 232:25 233:12,14,18 319:24,24 365:8 Hirschler 4:4 86:8,8,17 growth 196:5 419:11 233:24 234:2,3,4,5,18 387:22 441:7 582:3 86:17 87:6,8 90:17,17 GTR 549:1 happens 91:11 109:6 235:13 236:5,15,18 628:23 92:14,14,23,23 94:7,7 guarantee 139:22 156:4 203:17 291:4 237:2 252:12 297:25 helped 22:15 222:10 95:16,16,25,25 97:5,5 guaranteed 50:1 364:1 367:14 395:6,12 298:24 303:18 346:5 223:19 365:6 98:8,8,18,18 100:6,6 Guard 87:5 88:19 90:2 609:12 346:14 354:18 368:23 helpful 629:4 630:18,19 100:15,15 102:2,2,11 96:20 97:7,13 hard 191:8 220:11 369:6,7 446:11 448:7 helping 184:24 102:11 103:23,23 guess 181:17 206:14 278:17 338:12 400:12 486:19 549:22 550:20 helps 52:10 69:16 329:9 104:7,7 105:21,21 283:4 330:1 400:14 496:18 605:17 559:22 560:9 563:20 525:9 606:9 106:21,23 108:12,12 guest 12:18 35:12 618:17 619:2 HAZMAT 203:19 Henry 12:18 35:12 108:23,24 113:22,22 guests 226:9 hardened 128:20 head 505:22 644:3 Herndon 7:13 305:7,11 116:19,19 121:1,1,16 guidance 82:20 141:4,24 hardening 128:22 headings 632:9 305:14,14,19,23 306:3 121:16 124:7,7 125:18 164:19 165:10 171:22 harder 248:17 health 28:20,22,24 29:1 306:9,9 321:25,25 125:18 126:4,4 127:5 172:1 175:3 196:25 hardest 22:12 33:21 150:16 152:21 340:1 400:19,19,24 130:4,4 133:22,22 197:2 201:12 235:19 hardship 220:3 584:24 153:4,14 155:16 401:6,14 424:19,19 134:6,6 136:19,19 257:6,7 268:6 278:2 hardwired 357:1,2 346:23 425:3 428:17,18 429:3 138:17,17,18 139:3,3 285:5 434:24 HARLOW 1:22 661:5,18 healthcare 56:22 57:7 493:22,22 494:9 141:18,18 152:17,18 guide 13:22 165:14 harm 150:7 314:20 57:23 59:14,16,18 501:16,16 502:1 193:3,3,8 268:22,22 271:4 540:16 651:14 61:1 64:11 173:11,12 511:17,19,19 512:3 280:25,25 281:7,10

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 22

320:4,4 398:22,22 51:7,8,11,12,14,16 Humble 32:17 106:7 108:14,17 117:8 286:6 288:10,13 448:21,21 457:1,1,6 61:12,13 65:19,20,22 humid 372:22 117:17 121:3,6,10 ignite 109:14,16 114:13 460:4,4 485:4,4,9,12 66:19,20,22 67:5,6 humidity 372:15 124:17 125:1,20,23 122:9,10,11,12 553:9,9,15 628:9,9,19 Hopper 2:19 5:15 26:5,8 Humphrey 7:25 10:19 131:12,24 138:19,22 ignition 87:22 110:14 632:21,21 634:1,1,7 174:10,10 175:1 293:10 319:16,16 142:16 143:10,17 122:8 131:18 161:15 634:18,19 636:5,8 180:20,20 198:8,8,14 336:14,14 507:13,15 212:13,13,16 225:19 163:13 488:18 529:14 640:15,15,24,25 198:17 218:18,18 507:15 508:13 512:23 226:19 241:2,5 253:20 531:23 Hirschler's 129:9 237:8,8 238:13 249:12 512:24,24 523:15,16 294:17,19 304:5 323:2 ignore 561:24 historical 179:11 265:12 249:12 285:18,18 523:16 323:5 330:18 337:4 ignored 207:11 246:23 324:24 645:21 646:15 horizontally 141:6 hundred 125:11 189:1 338:22 340:19,24 262:17 historically 219:13 651:8 horns 12:22 35:16 203:18 222:15 246:5 341:6 351:18 352:10 ignores 223:11 history 223:24 265:10 horrible 165:4 277:10 349:18 444:10 353:3,8 356:16 361:18 ignoring 207:18 301:3 268:13 269:6,14 horsehair 127:6 502:3,3 645:2 650:11 362:11,15 371:3 551:15 270:13,13 272:1 Hose 144:9,23 145:3 hundreds 24:10 47:15 379:22,25 399:24 II 34:6 650:11 hospital 56:22 579:8 621:14,16 400:22 401:1 411:5,11 ill 129:19 history's 269:11 hot 164:20 372:14 541:9 Hunter 7:17 9:10 311:4,4 439:22,25 450:3 454:4 Illinois 23:13 24:19 hit 73:8,10 188:22 hotter 469:17,21 313:11 314:18 328:3,3 454:6 456:6 457:10,16 28:21 176:16 hits 436:9 498:19 hour 246:22 247:22 344:6,6 351:3,3 403:1 458:6,9 461:13 463:22 iMac 19:9 HL 528:13,22 529:11,21 248:4,23 249:2,6,24 403:1 408:13,13,14 464:4 465:11,14 images 289:24 529:23 531:16 533:1,1 250:9,20 252:9 275:20 413:9,9,17,17 418:24 468:11 475:23 476:15 imagination 324:10 533:2,25 534:14 397:7 550:4,8 565:7 418:24 427:13,13 476:18 479:10,16 331:10 HOFFMAN 161:23 hours 22:18 222:15,15 455:25,25 468:15,15 528:1,4 536:11,17 imagine 346:7 491:10,14 Hoffmann 5:4 158:6,6,14 241:20,23 242:18 481:9,9,23,23 485:20 537:17,20 542:11 immediate 20:6 57:5 158:16 159:6 161:19 243:12,19,20 244:13 489:6,6 492:19,20 545:19 546:18,22 64:5 161:21 162:1 167:14 244:13 245:6,6 246:6 495:24,24,24 496:5,7 555:23 596:19,21 immediately 63:23 hold 39:8,9,9 207:9 246:10,10 247:10 499:9,9 514:15,15 599:5,12 612:11,14 118:15 168:18 420:1 322:4,4 350:17 396:18 248:8 249:20 252:12 518:25 524:7,7 637:6 623:25 624:6 644:13 447:8 500:2 561:13 414:7,8 259:5 313:17,22 550:6 637:6,15,15 656:19,25 658:3 610:13 holder 426:6,9 429:13 553:13 578:5 579:8 hunting 606:4 identification 216:8 immune 398:9 holders 425:4 603:8 605:20 617:23 hurt 358:12 394:11 618:24 IMO 142:7 holding 544:12 621:16 HVAC 375:18,19 376:25 identified 16:17 37:25 impact 22:7 24:22 holds 383:24,25 638:9 house 201:1 363:10 377:6,11 40:16 55:6 56:5 131:2 192:19 225:15,24 Holland 8:4 330:15,16 369:18,24 370:1 377:8 hydraulic 50:18,23 136:1 214:13 276:24 245:3,4 251:14 288:3 366:18,18 410:8,8 394:9 395:12,16 397:8 191:23 325:22 328:8 330:21 288:7 307:14 309:7,22 503:7,7 409:20 553:21,25 hydro-plants 184:16 342:23 355:2 364:19 310:2,11,20 404:7 Holub 8:2 329:15,15 650:15 hydrogen 262:13 373:4 381:4 402:5 417:8 515:1 516:7 330:10,12 340:16,16 household 303:1 397:11 hygiene 387:16 433:4 442:11 451:18 531:4,4 532:25 569:7 341:3,3 342:19 347:25 houses 203:19 363:14 454:23 459:5 467:11 618:4 347:25 390:7 I 483:23 494:24 502:11 impacted 136:6 246:17 home 41:7 166:12 358:1 housing 364:11 376:14 i.e 308:13 507:11 512:21 530:4 impacts 225:10 397:20 360:13 376:2,2,25 Houston 5:18 177:19,20 IAEI 367:5 384:1,3 559:12 573:17 576:2 552:10 377:18 398:10 530:10 178:10 205:7,7 228:15 478:21 602:23 577:19 585:12 602:16 impairment 54:10,11,15 547:11 564:22,23,25 228:15 IAFF 620:21 615:5 631:7 635:2 54:20 55:15,23 57:2 565:10 580:6,12,17 Howard 2:19 5:15 7:13 IBEW 350:13,13 359:20 638:9 641:12 647:11 57:13 58:12,16 59:21 homebuilders 353:2,16 26:5,5,8,15,19 174:10 360:22 365:25 375:13 identifier 336:4 59:24 60:11,19 61:8 356:21 357:21 362:10 174:10 180:20,20 396:17 585:18 591:1 identifies 14:12 438:12 61:20,24 362:24 367:1 371:20 182:12,15 198:8,8,14 594:22 597:23 625:21 identify 17:15 80:7 impairment's 54:22 372:4 375:25 198:17 218:18,18 IC 130:7 231:15 318:4 319:21 impairments 54:10 Homeland 153:9 237:8,8 238:13 249:12 ICC 245:23 287:4 383:24 377:16 480:7 507:20 61:15 63:22 homeowner 385:11 249:12 285:18,18 491:2,5 549:11 626:22 impart 569:8 389:5 397:24 505:16 305:7,11,14,14,19,23 ICE 130:8 561:9 identifying 131:2 236:6 impede 209:1 303:22,24 homeowners 372:15 306:3,9,9 321:25,25 icing 409:17 255:8 334:16 336:3 303:25 341:11 343:19 385:1 390:5 340:1 400:19,19,24 icon 660:3 341:1 344:16 347:3,8 570:14 homes 357:23 369:8 401:6,14 424:19,19 Id 41:19,25 637:7 IEC 318:23 437:9 570:15,16 376:6 382:13 384:13 425:3 428:17,17 429:3 Idaho 383:24 384:2 IEEE 177:24,24 212:9,21 impede' 347:4 388:18 398:1,1 482:20 493:22,22 494:9 idea 172:14 184:18 213:3,23 217:4 244:9 impeding 343:6 348:4 621:7 501:16,16 502:1 270:12 317:9 318:13 261:17,18 262:13 imperative 61:18 honestly 187:20 511:17,19,19 512:3 382:16 451:11 482:17 273:20 281:24 514:21 imperfect 148:13 288:5 honor 75:24 195:2 256:9 520:14,17,20,20 506:5 561:22 515:12 645:7 288:6 honored 184:13 521:11,11 522:1,1,9 identical 98:20 100:17 IEEE-C2 183:9 implementation 150:6 hope 42:23 126:17 584:8,8,16 589:19,19 163:8 286:16 422:19 IEI 615:9 154:8,17 166:10 241:16 243:13 590:3 593:14,14,18,20 468:1 634:4,21 645:5 IFC 188:2,3 192:22 implemented 54:17 369:8 549:20 592:5 594:3 596:17,17,17 identifiable 42:19 66:21 193:16 196:10,16 153:25 543:22 hopefully 209:12 313:22 597:1 624:20,20 625:3 66:25 67:13 70:6,14 204:20,21 205:3 implication 312:8 369:10 533:9 Hoytabuck 495:3 502:16 76:9 95:17,20 97:10 207:20 213:24 218:12 implications 288:2 Hopkins 3:12 44:14,15 huge 348:16 648:21,23 97:17 98:10,12 99:10 244:2,22,23,23,23 323:19 415:16 44:20,21,24 45:4,10 Huggins 2:21 26:23,25 99:16 102:4,6 103:3,8 250:3 256:24 257:25 importance 14:1 175:18 45:12,15,16 46:6,9 human 303:6 103:25 104:2 105:19 268:4 276:4 279:6 important 16:5 36:10

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 23

54:8 61:21 81:16 89:5 206:24 217:11 237:1 increases 165:1 600:1,13 607:3 612:9 266:12,13,13,17 89:12 91:13 105:17 276:5 295:19 296:2 increasing 90:4 242:17 612:20,24 622:18 270:17 289:4 307:14 131:7,20 137:16 141:9 299:16 302:22 312:14 increasingly 298:8 industry.' 562:2 309:14,16,18,24 154:6 160:2 161:14 316:3 329:5 372:11 605:24 ineffective 445:4 310:13,14,18,20,23 163:16 172:16,22 401:14 406:13,14 incredible 282:13 inert 163:14 166:1 317:22 323:22 366:2 178:16 185:17,19,21 410:17 432:16 438:10 283:18 inexpensive 446:14 409:2,3 413:22 414:4 186:25 191:15 196:9 455:14 474:8 524:22 incredibly 22:24 262:18 449:5 414:4,4,9,13 415:13 225:1 267:3,8 269:15 525:3 549:4 558:10 incursions 444:11 influence 55:25 56:8 415:19 417:1,16 419:2 280:17 281:15 315:9 564:6 584:20 587:24 independent 113:2 Info 13:11 36:4 431:2 440:9 442:19,24 318:18 319:11,22 592:13 595:18 616:21 151:13 153:22 284:24 inform 329:9 518:17 448:8 455:9 496:21 331:12 343:8,12,17,20 626:11 652:13 284:25 387:23 426:2 525:10 497:5 523:1 585:7 388:10 390:22 436:1 included 14:4 194:14 429:22 442:16 451:23 information 17:19 43:7 590:16 594:12 597:13 460:23 465:23 466:18 213:18 242:25 266:17 631:12 635:7 656:4 44:5,19 45:19,23 46:2 625:11 467:1 562:20 563:23 275:9 279:5 296:5 independently 241:13 46:14,14,18,20,23,24 inputs 22:9 220:25 226:2 588:21 605:18 606:11 326:11 414:13 418:18 index 89:8 91:1,2 102:15 47:12,17 49:7,21 50:4 226:5 242:14,16 631:2 644:23 651:21 419:3 438:3 460:8,14 104:10 50:25 51:2,21 61:17 265:17 277:4 307:10 importantly 271:18 481:20 554:12 557:4 indexes 105:15 486:8 81:15 85:9 86:2 89:4 311:7 470:14 540:13 impose 182:24 201:8 573:22 623:15 632:17 indicate 14:18 17:20,22 107:11 108:5 120:2,20 541:11 603:3,7 605:20 359:13 includes 88:19 94:4 296:1 297:3 330:5 127:17,21 128:8,18 618:2 638:7 imposed 214:16 114:16 183:14 192:22 437:23 474:21 618:13 129:1,16,22 130:18,20 inrush 384:13 imposes 474:5 213:9 231:23 236:11 651:17 131:9,16 132:22 inserted 149:16 341:21 impossible 328:18 295:11 316:18 411:1 indicated 67:25 140:5 133:15 136:2,25 342:1 344:19 458:20 518:12 525:5 548:9 295:5 296:8 397:22 144:15 145:7 146:12 inside 105:24 142:3 impractical 275:21 588:1 592:15 437:24 532:24 557:19 147:7 151:25 152:10 190:22 447:8 565:1 344:24 including 13:17 16:13 638:24 642:12 153:7 158:9 159:2 648:16 impression 277:14 22:1 33:15 37:4 88:21 indicates 55:16 68:7 169:8 170:1 176:19 insights 188:14 508:14 109:7 112:2 172:10 indicating 136:3,4 177:11 193:23 201:21 insist 550:12 559:25 improper 154:21 376:2,7 194:20 215:21 226:11 335:20 398:2 215:16 238:8 246:20 570:12,20 376:9 242:6 267:25 268:3 indication 232:16 247:1 258:2 259:13 inspect 47:11,22 369:22 improperly 568:6 280:5 295:24 298:13 241:25 242:18 265:17 269:21 271:3,24 506:9 improve 175:5 288:5 318:5 334:11 335:1 394:12 618:19 277:17 280:19,20 inspected 46:16,22 454:18 515:6 542:1 353:4,9 356:17 361:19 indications 483:9 283:22 284:2,10,13 inspecting 505:10 509:7 576:9 606:1 629:4 362:12,16 371:4 individual 21:9 87:12 285:14 293:1 294:4 inspection 27:10 33:24 632:25 441:19 446:2 447:16 334:16 539:13 568:21 305:24 316:16,18 43:2,19,25 44:18 improved 149:13 288:8 470:15 473:1 546:15 individually 416:11 324:25 328:14,20,23 46:12 47:11 52:3 357:23 384:20 466:12 546:19,23 548:4 552:5 individuals 20:6 25:18 364:7 432:4,16,19 201:8 505:14 540:17 552:6 555:24 556:20 164:4 241:13 387:6,23 440:18 444:24 469:16 inspections 63:19 improvement 257:11 556:23 566:13 571:16 388:5 498:16 629:20 642:6,13 649:7 336:21 569:1 288:1 456:11 591:4 594:16 597:3 indoor 181:25 information.' 324:24 inspector 49:10 337:1 improvements 19:17 600:3,7 605:5 611:11 indoors 250:13 informational 268:15 383:21,22,25 384:1 148:17 213:23 357:16 611:18 629:13 630:9 inductive 580:11 318:6,13 325:21 326:8 389:3 508:2 607:15 improves 456:12 647:5 inclusion 297:18 298:2 industrial 27:8 32:22 326:13,14,23 331:5 inspectors 48:12 88:19 improving 20:20 281:11 incompatibility 397:10 164:21 200:1 213:12 432:2,17 434:11,21 347:20,23 355:8 in-house 325:16 incomplete 287:1 359:2 314:3 345:4 447:21 442:3 443:10 444:23 364:24 373:9 381:9 in.' 192:12 inconsistencies 392:22 448:5 515:6 531:25 543:2,12 641:23 402:11 416:4 432:3,6 inability 515:25 558:23 577:14 industries 174:2 179:3 Informative 434:13 432:22 459:11 462:11 inadequate 61:20 inconsistency 114:23 279:4 306:17 604:14 informed 72:7 79:23 467:17 484:4 507:17 130:19 558:17 577:9 630:6 industry 128:25 149:13 129:20 153:17 155:25 513:1 523:18 539:7 inappropriate 129:18 inconsistent 110:13,18 151:4,25 153:17 234:11 569:1 638:18 641:18 166:8 487:20 110:18,23 114:12 155:23 163:18 173:2 infrastructure 172:9 647:17 inaudible 331:16 315:12 646:11 174:20 178:11 183:2 295:15,20,23 300:12 install 338:10 354:15 incentivize 149:12 inconvenience 397:19 188:9,12 190:17,18 301:1 547:10 548:12 384:22 528:23 incentivizes 248:19 incorporate 285:13 194:20 198:10 200:16 569:15 installation 32:7 51:22 inch 447:13 incorporated 25:22 32:4 200:21 205:15 207:11 inherent 188:10 248:3 177:7 183:18 184:2 inches 100:19 282:6 113:8 115:14 144:11 207:23 213:6,7 216:5 488:17 190:22 196:24 197:1 incident 13:1 35:19 191:6 231:5,18 258:15 217:18,25 224:4 245:5 initial 67:11,17 154:2 199:1,2 204:24 206:15 154:18 188:8 196:23 284:20 552:11 644:10 246:25 256:16 257:7 234:9 235:4 366:2 354:11,14 356:23 200:3,9,11,18 201:6 incorporates 318:8 257:13 276:10 283:22 initials 508:25 376:3,8,9 433:20 346:12 359:9 374:24 incorporation 128:13 288:3 289:5,10 295:11 initiate 38:1 40:16 261:3 434:1,11,16 447:1 376:1 394:6 incorrect 53:24 198:5,22 300:19 301:7 306:12 initiated 613:14 448:5 462:11 487:21 incidents 88:21 96:17 198:22 277:15 280:20 306:14,18 308:5,11 injured 154:20 256:13 532:3 588:19 616:10 167:2 196:7 363:23 499:12 607:19 609:7 311:19 315:13 319:24 injuries 380:21 386:11 installations 22:6 116:2 366:10 483:13 547:23 incorrectly 219:7,9 329:11,21 348:17 386:12 445:21 448:15 179:17 180:25 181:10 Incinerators 29:6 increase 134:22 260:25 352:2 398:7,8 410:19 561:6 562:22 181:25 182:19 183:8 include 37:9 69:25 97:8 345:5 351:13 355:21 418:15 419:12 448:15 injury 442:1 183:17 195:21 199:6 111:12 148:14 149:10 357:1 393:7 438:19 491:3 518:14 525:13 input 111:3 191:11 201:13 215:22 216:7 149:12 165:13 184:21 446:7,10 460:11 461:4 540:1,25 550:6 561:11 207:13,14,16 221:12 216:10 218:22 219:1 189:20 196:15 205:18 increased 148:6 489:1 568:10 569:14 570:6 243:1 249:18 266:11 219:24 220:1,1 225:9

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 24

243:10 259:20 278:1 341:22 344:9 351:15 207:25 209:13 219:21 investor 194:11 195:24 443:23 452:2,14 288:24 297:3,9,18 384:25 405:10,12 223:16 235:2 238:1 209:3 454:24 455:2 463:1 309:23 344:14 359:22 409:13,14 448:12 249:21 268:23 281:1 investors 195:25 467:12 468:19 471:10 359:23,24,25 372:17 508:5 538:23 558:9 284:3,8 286:18 289:14 invitation 143:1 474:2 484:5 496:24 376:4 440:15,16 443:3 577:1 580:13,16 299:4 309:3 320:5 invite 19:18 502:12 523:7,11 446:6 452:4 469:14 628:23 644:22 330:25 345:11,12 involve 373:12,13 525:4 533:17 544:15 551:8 483:8 553:19 557:14 intends 472:23 474:8 347:19 349:12 355:7 involved 22:3,12 24:2 551:11 553:17 558:2 575:21 576:13 605:23 intense 154:4 364:24 373:8 381:8 82:11 187:1 207:2 561:15 562:6 578:25 606:6 intensive 262:16 398:23 402:10 404:2 223:22 276:14 280:11 585:21 591:6 594:23 installed 46:21 47:23 intent 15:2 67:10 111:6 416:3,19 426:19 311:6,7 347:6 413:3 597:10,25 601:25 50:9 87:22,23 183:9 111:15 122:19 123:23 435:23 448:22 457:2 416:9 456:4 525:5 602:7 603:3 607:10,11 192:15 214:5 216:2 123:25 171:23 213:14 459:10 460:5 467:16 601:13 621:15 611:6 612:22,22 290:4 300:13 324:5,14 261:20 262:7 344:22 484:3 485:5 497:25 involvement 310:24 625:23 630:21 638:4 335:13 359:4,6 444:17 344:23 389:8,14 405:6 507:16 513:1,24 involving 150:2 638:13 645:12 445:10 471:4 482:19 405:7,22,23 425:3 523:17 539:6 551:22 ion 189:21 190:2,15,20 issued 16:23 482:20 487:6 513:10 447:25 494:11 508:15 551:24 552:4,8 553:10 192:1 197:1 213:17 issues 64:15,24 162:11 515:4 558:19 576:13 510:1 642:12 563:13,24 567:6 215:4 246:5 250:13 183:1 201:6 204:2 631:19 intention 14:18 192:20 569:17 571:4 579:18 252:6 256:22 257:3,15 206:3 213:15 216:14 installer 323:24 440:25 235:17 288:19 296:7 591:14 628:10 632:22 262:9 274:17,20,24 216:20 225:15 235:24 442:5 508:2 547:9 634:2,19 638:17 275:12 279:13 282:24 235:25 239:13 274:21 installers 347:22 385:7 intentionally 654:16 640:16,25 641:17 283:3 285:23 288:19 275:17 279:1,2 287:8 434:18 440:25 462:11 intentioned 341:8,9 647:16 288:20,24 289:1 290:5 296:16 342:23 355:1 648:25 intentions 42:17 internationally 69:14 iPad 643:24 659:2 357:13 364:18 373:3 installing 164:20,21 interconnect 600:21,25 interpret 235:15 266:24 iPads 192:6,8 279:16 373:24 381:3 384:8 334:23 448:3 505:8 interconnected 298:2 267:7 660:3 387:13 388:6 389:8 656:15 600:17,18 613:18 interpretation 249:1 ir- 582:5 402:5 408:18 425:18 instance 232:5 314:10 614:17 618:5 295:19 296:6 515:21 iron 32:18 252:10 436:8 429:17 433:4 434:7,14 494:11 616:23 interconnection 603:1 548:20 645:22 646:4,5 ironically 505:7 442:11 451:18 454:23 instances 276:7 616:9 616:18 618:4 619:4 646:14,16 649:1 irregardless 233:25 459:5 467:11 471:17 instigate 535:16 interest 203:20 205:22 interpretations 644:21 277:16 483:17,23 494:23 Institute 32:18 121:2,17 277:25 299:17 515:11 interpretative 644:23 irrelevant 105:16 554:17 502:11 507:11 512:14 124:8 125:19 126:5 660:14 interpreted 52:5 515:18 570:10 512:21 514:3 519:15 130:5 133:23 134:7 interested 20:19 233:9 558:10,21 577:12 irreversible 426:11 522:24 530:4 540:15 136:20 138:19 139:4 282:15 557:20 653:6 interrupt 507:7 527:18 irritating 187:3 544:9 550:2,3,7 552:7 141:19 153:4,13 194:8 661:9 534:22 ISO 134:19 135:6 137:2 553:3 559:12 561:12 357:7 460:5 485:5 interesting 90:20 251:12 interrupter 368:16 395:5 137:3,4,19 142:5,6 568:9,22 571:24 486:2 490:9 600:2,14 373:14 489:10 494:9 401:20,22 isolated 359:9 377:14 577:19 578:5 584:17 607:4 608:10 612:10 610:20 615:11 interrupters 358:14,15 isolating 166:3 585:12 590:21 594:4 612:21 620:3 622:19 interface 172:20 interruption 164:17 isolation 563:18 576:16 594:17 597:18 602:15 Institutes 122:25 interfaces 558:24 420:3,4 579:25 615:4 625:15 631:7 instruct 310:8 577:15 Intertek 301:13 435:7 ISPs 152:7 153:17 635:2 641:12 647:11 instructing 531:10 interfere 208:20 498:24 516:12 533:23 154:22 155:24 156:6 648:22,24 651:16,17 instructions 660:1 interfering 548:16 intimately 187:1 156:21 issuing 37:8 instructor 508:17 509:20 Interim 205:21 610:14 introduce 20:5 118:17 issuance 15:13 16:11,12 It'd 187:5 instructs 328:9 interior 127:2,10 130:8 168:20 212:22 242:24 36:16 37:3 44:7 86:3 ITE 522:11 insulate 330:1 130:10,12,14 266:15 268:15 392:22 108:7 120:22 133:18 item 46:15 60:15 136:7 insulated 577:5 interlock 531:22 414:12 453:13 472:17 145:9,22 147:10 159:5 210:20 221:19 253:9 insulating 88:23 interlocked 528:13,20 introduced 35:4 243:5 170:4 177:13 294:7 272:25 299:20 334:6 insulation 90:23,25 96:5 528:23 529:11,13,15 266:5 267:11 276:4 issue 16:24 24:20 52:2 339:10 401:6,24,24 137:19 471:4 487:4 529:18,21,23 533:10 307:12,13 317:23 53:23 55:14 59:22 409:14 425:22 485:15 540:13 648:21,23 533:15,25 534:11 327:16 425:22 444:14 60:8 61:15,23 63:9 485:16,17 489:23 insulations 137:18 interlocking 531:17 516:13 523:2 585:8 64:17 68:1 74:14 83:1 492:9 512:5 531:12,17 insure 307:11 intermix 474:4 590:17,18 594:13,14 83:10 88:23 96:3 601:7 603:9 integral 16:5 36:10 internal 303:8 440:7 597:14,17 625:12,14 102:13 113:14 121:18 items 61:5 109:21 280:4 328:12 405:21 442:21 447:15 561:9 638:8 654:13 655:8 154:6 156:10 157:6 115:21 206:2 237:21 integrate 560:16 international 86:9,18 introducing 164:2 182:5 165:23 173:5 180:24 258:21 389:22 403:6 integrated 27:12 29:23 87:5 90:18 92:15,24 182:6 205:21 209:8 222:18 412:24 496:20 497:1 171:2,12,24 172:25 94:8 95:17 96:1 97:6 introduction 384:7,9 224:5 232:10 242:21 569:6 627:3 174:14 175:16 98:9,19 100:7,16 invading 209:5 251:19 291:3 297:17 integrative 173:15 174:4 102:3,12 103:24 104:8 invaluable 24:17 50:25 299:14 300:3 309:6 J integrator 187:7 105:22 108:13,24 inverter 248:6 395:14 310:6 319:6 324:20 J-1766 552:8,11 integrators 248:21 113:23 116:20 121:2 558:11 578:22 325:2 343:18,22 351:5 J.M 113:1 integrity 112:13 141:9 121:17 124:8 125:19 investigate 547:23 356:2 363:13 366:1 Jack 6:17 240:1,2 374:7 515:7 126:5 130:5 133:23 investigated 394:13 367:18 377:2,7,16,16 374:8 418:6,6 461:10 intend 203:15 134:7 136:20 138:18 investigation 55:19 387:25 388:9 397:13 461:11 468:9,9 484:22 intended 68:15 149:10 139:4 140:21 141:19 88:20 394:2 455:11 398:16 415:8,9 429:11 484:23 542:6,9,9 171:17 191:21 275:13 142:2 152:18 189:9 571:25 429:12 433:24 435:12 jacket 355:20 280:3 302:23 319:5 193:4 195:11 196:12 investigators 393:25 436:6,7,7 443:19,22 jacketed 486:10

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 25

James 3:3,18 4:15 5:10 337:17 338:11,18,20 503:14,18 504:19,23 Jarrod 4:12 119:24 452:21,22 454:21,22 5:16,18 10:2 29:11,12 339:23 340:5,20,23 507:7 508:7 509:14 120:8 122:16 124:9,21 457:11,12 459:2,4 29:14 30:8 53:12,12 342:18,20 344:1 345:7 510:15,17 511:3,18,22 128:13 131:15 132:12 463:23,25 467:8,10 53:21 140:16,16 345:18,21 346:21 512:1,18 513:18 Jason 11:8 604:13,13 478:12,13,16 479:12 168:20,24 170:5,8,8 347:16,24 349:9 514:13 516:9,20 518:3 617:7,7 483:20,22 493:4,6 170:12,16,18 171:7 350:11 351:1,17 352:4 518:20 519:7,19,25 Jay 4:24 153:3,3 494:20,22 500:22,24 172:2 173:8 174:8,17 352:8 353:6,13,20 520:15,18,25 521:15 Jeff 9:4 75:5 392:4,4,10 502:8,10 507:8,10 174:23 175:8,21 354:23 356:7,9,19 522:3,7,21 524:3,17 jeopardize 188:6 189:1 510:19,21,24 511:2 176:12,15,25 177:15 358:3,19 359:16 525:15,19,25 527:17 jeopardy 156:16 512:18,20 519:21,23 177:19,19 178:2,7,10 360:19,24 361:5 527:20 528:3,9 530:1 Jersey 132:19 522:21,23 530:1,3 180:18 182:8,11 184:5 362:14,21 364:15 530:14,20 532:5,19 jet 214:17 536:12,13 538:20,22 185:23 186:16 187:5 365:17,19 366:17,23 533:20 534:9,17,19,21 Jim 5:1 7:8,16 11:7,14 549:6,8 559:9,11 189:4 191:2 193:1,7 367:20 368:11 369:13 534:24 535:2,6,18,23 141:21 154:13,13 569:21,23 577:16,18 194:5 195:7 197:6 369:15 370:4,8,14 535:25 536:9,15 255:10 256:5 299:3,4 584:25 585:2 589:1,3 198:1,4,7,16 199:18 371:22 372:1,25 374:2 537:19,23 538:20 309:2,3 330:24,25 590:12,14 592:20,22 200:4,6,8 201:18 374:13 375:9,22 539:19 541:21 542:4,8 332:21,25 345:9,10,20 594:8,10 595:23,24 202:16 204:12,16 376:16 377:21 378:2,6 542:14 543:6,24 345:23 349:11,12 596:1 597:7,9 599:6,7 205:5,7,7,24 206:10 378:12,22 379:24 544:20,25 545:6 365:18 404:1,2 416:18 599:9 602:12,14 208:2,6,8,10 209:10 380:3,25 382:1 383:15 546:21 547:1 549:6 416:19 426:18,19 611:12,14 615:1,3 209:17,23 210:9,18,23 385:19 386:25 387:8 550:25 551:19 553:7 435:22,23 497:24,25 624:1,2 625:7,9 211:2,6,11 212:2,15 388:15 390:18,25 554:2,25 555:4,10 513:23,24 551:21,21 627:11,13 631:4,6 212:19,22,25 213:2 392:2,9 393:20 396:10 556:14,21 557:1 559:9 563:12,12 571:3,4 633:7,9 634:24 635:1 215:5,7 216:21 218:5 396:22 398:20 399:4 560:23 562:7 563:11 579:17,17 591:13,14 636:12,13 638:1,3 218:16 220:5 221:17 399:11 400:23,25 564:8 565:15,19,25 602:17,18,19,22,22 639:21,22 641:9,11 221:22 223:4 224:21 401:4 402:2,21 403:24 567:10,12,16,20 607:6 615:7,9,9 644:7 643:5,7 647:8,10 225:18,22 226:17 405:1 406:4 407:7 569:21 570:23 572:5,9 644:9,10,18,18 654:13 656:20,21 659:22 227:12 228:1,15,15,18 408:11 409:11 410:7 572:15 574:7,21,23 JM 115:13 Johnstons 292:24 229:7,17 230:17,20,23 410:13 411:4,9 412:3 575:6,10 577:16 job 24:18 148:13 186:5 join 21:3,13 23:8,14 25:6 231:1,7,11,15 233:20 412:17 413:12,16 579:12 580:19,24 201:14 547:17 25:20 26:5,23 27:24 233:22 234:21 235:22 415:5 416:14 418:3,11 581:5,10,15,24 582:2 Joe 10:15 490:8,8 28:18 29:12 31:1 236:6 237:7,23 238:21 418:22 419:17 420:7 582:5,13,17,19,22 Joel 7:2 11:4 287:20,20 166:10 293:13 238:25 239:14,18,24 420:13,20 422:1,5,24 583:8 584:10,14,25 564:10,10 648:9,9 joined 23:17 240:4,9 241:4,8 423:1,7,16,24 424:3 585:24 587:13,19 654:9,9 joint 561:16 562:6 576:3 243:15,17 244:3 424:22 425:1,15 588:4,13,15,23 589:5 Joh 375:11 Jonathan 3:24 32:17,19 245:18,25 246:2 247:3 426:14 427:4,6,10,21 589:22 590:1,10,12 John 4:2,8 5:8 6:16 7:10 64:10,10 249:10 251:4,24 427:25 428:21 429:1 591:8,23 592:9,18,24 8:16 9:11 85:5,15 Jones 9:25 442:13,15,16 252:20,25 253:6 254:6 429:14 430:3,10 431:5 593:17,19,22 594:1,8 88:13 91:20 93:15 451:20,22,23 631:9,11 254:9,12,25 255:4,8 431:10 433:1 435:2,9 595:1,14,21,25 596:2 94:23 96:11 97:13 631:12 635:4,6,7 255:13,16,19,21,24 435:20 436:20 437:5 596:20,24 597:7 598:3 99:1 101:10 102:20 Jose 189:8 256:2,4 258:12,14 438:24 439:4,24 440:3 598:18 599:3,8,10 103:5 104:14 106:4 journeyman 383:23 259:22 261:13,21,25 442:8 444:2 446:18 600:5,10 602:12 604:8 107:2 111:21,22 113:1 396:17 262:3,5,24 263:2,3 448:19 449:6,10,16 606:14,25 608:7,21,25 115:13,13,18,20 164:9 judgment 585:5 264:1,4,6,13 265:1,4 450:21,23,25 451:5,15 609:19 611:9,16 164:9 221:21,23,23 Julian 7:14 293:11 267:13,15 268:17 452:7,19,23 453:13,18 612:13,17 615:1 617:2 299:24,25 359:18,19 307:21,22 308:3 269:24 270:3,21 272:4 454:5,10,20 455:21 619:9,20,25 620:19 365:23,23 375:11 425:24 426:1,2 429:19 272:11,14 274:1,5,8 456:15,24 457:4,8,14 621:18 622:14,21,25 418:12,12 436:21,21 429:21,22 274:12 276:16,18 458:8,12 459:2,24 623:23 624:4,22 625:1 497:8,8,13,15,18 July 36:18 180:3 661:14 278:8 280:23 281:21 460:16 461:8,16,24 625:7 626:2,15 627:9 518:5,6 532:10,10 jumped 305:6 283:13 285:16 287:18 462:14,18 463:5,9,21 627:15 628:12,16 551:5,5 586:4,5 598:4 jumper 602:3 607:17,18 289:11 290:11,17,23 464:2,20,25 465:13,17 631:4,23 632:19 633:5 598:4 606:16,16 610:8,8,18,19 291:2,8,11 292:16,18 467:7 468:4,14 470:8 633:11 634:5,9,12,16 619:11,11 642:20,20 jumping 129:22 292:20 293:16 294:8 471:22 472:2,6,9,13 634:24 635:14,22 649:11,11 JUNE 1:8 12:3 119:10 294:18,22 296:10 472:15 473:7 474:18 636:4,7,9,15 637:9,13 Johnson 57:17 69:4 230:7 412:11 527:11 299:1,22 301:10,17,19 474:24 475:4,10 638:1 639:10,18,24 Johnston 7:4 293:8,16 jurisdiction 48:22 49:4 301:22 302:6 304:4,9 476:11,17,22 477:2,5 640:18,22 641:9 293:18 294:8 296:10 82:11 83:7 87:13 305:9,12,18,20 306:1 477:7,10,16,20,23 642:15 643:3,9 644:8 296:12 304:6,8 306:20 116:14 139:11,13 306:4,6,20 308:22 478:1,5,9,11,15 479:7 644:12,16 647:7 648:4 306:22 307:24 308:1 184:21 206:6,19,23 311:2 313:6 314:23 479:14 480:6,11,14 649:9,20 650:5,8 325:25 326:2,22 337:6 336:18 347:7 487:17 315:23 316:21 317:3 481:6,12,16 483:20 651:23 652:4,10,18 337:7 338:16,19 487:23 507:5 509:1,6 318:20 319:14 320:2 484:17 485:2,7,11,24 653:23 654:2,6,8 342:20,22 352:4,6 517:4 629:12 320:11,14,18,22 322:4 488:8 489:4 490:5 655:2 656:1,17,23 354:23,25 364:15,17 jurisdictional 83:1,10 322:7,12,15,17,24 491:8,11 492:3,16 657:14,16,18,20,23 372:25 373:2 380:25 jurisdictions 48:24 323:4,8,10 325:25 493:2,8 494:1,6,20 658:8,11,14,17,20,23 381:2 402:2,4 411:7,8 51:17 68:16,18 83:5 326:18 327:23 329:1 495:17,22 496:3 497:6 659:10,13,16,24 415:5,7 423:1,3,24 179:3 199:6 207:8 329:13 330:9,11,13,22 497:11,14,17,22 660:12 424:1 425:15,17 248:24 286:22 508:23 331:19,21 332:4,6,16 498:20 499:7,22 500:1 Jane 383:20,21 384:4 427:23 429:14,16 justification 244:21 333:20,23 335:6 500:3,6,20 501:1,19 January 391:10,21 430:9 433:1,3 439:1,2 245:2 313:1 541:1 336:12 337:3,9,13,15 501:24 502:8 503:2,12 jargon 506:7 442:8,10 451:15,17 justifications 189:12

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 26 justified 346:2 kick 260:14 knowledge 24:16 190:4 169:15 176:25 230:13 larger 89:10,15,16 justify 214:19 528:17 kicked 282:12 275:16 316:6 410:23 293:19 437:2 532:16 128:14 222:24 252:7 justifying 233:1 Kicking 319:22 462:12 506:5 518:15 587:11 606:22 619:17 308:14 356:25 386:15 Justin 6:14 218:7,7 kid 506:24 518:16 525:3 598:12 lady 390:4 401:14 407:19 499:2 kill 505:4,20 634:10 knowledgeable 204:5 laid 538:16 543:4 largest 147:19 148:4 K killed 358:13 360:5 known 96:21 116:3 land 202:5 364:2 645:18 Larrimer 33:9 K 438:1 394:12 148:14 274:18 299:17 653:10 Larry 7:23 293:10,11 Kampgrounds 542:17 killer 303:7 560:4 327:15 383:11 392:25 language 54:1 55:21 318:22,22 377:10 Karen 5:2 155:7,11,11 kilowatt 241:20,23 489:12 508:17 548:7 56:3,3,6 68:20 81:22 Larson 8:25 385:21,21 keen 203:20 242:17 243:12,19,19 551:24 648:22,24 81:22,25 82:5,5,22,23 late 315:8 520:21 keep 12:14 38:24 79:4 244:13,13 246:9,10,22 knows 89:25 282:24 83:6,10,23 110:10,11 latest 127:13 130:10 111:7 185:17,18 247:10,22 248:4,8,23 458:25 506:21 607:16 129:7 142:13 170:21 335:18,25 506:18 186:12 188:17 203:14 249:2,6,20,24 250:9 Koffel 3:11 43:4,4,12,16 170:22 171:5,10,20 Latin 461:2 473:22 221:18 281:11 287:13 250:20 252:9,12 43:18 44:8 46:7,9 172:13,22 173:1 175:5 Laughlin 8:8 347:18,18 287:13 288:8 314:16 275:20 52:16 54:25 55:2 205:2 207:20 233:3 laughter 39:13 71:15 318:11 330:20 366:21 kilowatts 242:16 64:24 67:18,20 70:10 246:16 256:23 260:4,6 79:24 127:4 148:1 388:4 389:6 410:11 kind 69:8 96:24 112:5 82:14,16 84:6,24,25 261:9 265:16 271:6,10 211:1,4 223:6 240:5 494:12 506:23 514:4 165:20 170:24 189:25 Korea 278:1 282:10 296:3 306:15 264:7 281:6 289:18 538:8,14 544:16 199:10 205:12 219:10 Kovachic 7:10 299:24,25 316:3,15 329:6 330:7 292:19 307:25 313:24 578:10 580:2 581:10 223:10 237:2 285:21 436:21,22 532:10,11 331:14 341:7,21 342:1 320:9,13 331:23 332:8 582:23 605:8 615:15 347:9 359:14 388:22 551:5,6 586:4,5 342:14,15 344:17,23 332:11,23 333:25 keeping 296:6 443:8 401:9 409:25 473:20 606:16,17 642:20,21 345:1 347:3,4,10 358:24 378:5,21 538:18 562:19 491:15 576:3 610:6 649:11,12 351:14 353:23 355:24 395:22 418:9 423:23 keeps 208:16 260:25 kinds 81:15 112:4,4 Kovacich 619:11,12 363:4 364:2 365:9 427:3 472:7 475:3 Keith 3:15 8:8,19 10:6 409:18 Kurt 11:17 651:25 652:3 366:21 372:5 376:12 477:9 479:2 480:5 48:20,21 347:18,18 kitchens 543:20 652:7,7,11 403:15,22 404:7 481:5 503:13 510:4,9 374:15,16 455:3,5 knew 188:16 271:17 kw 222:14,15 408:20 410:18 413:19 510:14,16,23 511:1 459:7,9,9 467:13,15 320:8,10 417:17 413:21,23 414:16 527:1,19 530:18 467:16 478:18,20,20 508:24 L 418:18 419:1,4 420:6 535:20 553:14 579:4 479:3 484:2,2 537:14 know 20:17 49:11 54:12 L 548:8 443:11 455:14 463:14 581:23 582:4 602:21 537:15,25 539:3,5,5 58:1,20 60:22 61:22 La 382:9,11 383:18 481:25 491:2 496:9,11 634:11 652:2,6 657:15 543:25,25 62:11 69:14 70:1 392:6 393:24 496:15,19,21 497:3 658:10,16,18 659:12 Kelly 8:23 383:17,18 79:22 127:6 136:23 lab 471:13 524:2 571:14 499:4,15 507:19 514:4 660:9 Ken 296:21 326:17,19,19 139:13 141:5 143:5 651:7 514:18,22,23 515:1 laundry 237:19 343:2 562:9,9 164:16 165:19 173:20 label 312:25 328:12 516:2,4 517:8,12 law 179:2 364:2 Kenneth 4:10 7:7 118:17 174:11 185:8 188:15 330:4 337:25 338:7,9 519:14 524:22 533:11 lawfully 205:1 118:21,25 119:20 193:21 203:12 205:11 338:9 510:3,5,7 539:14 540:19 548:13 laws 661:11 120:23 121:4,13 205:11,13 209:7 215:9 637:22 548:19,22 549:3 lay 180:14 122:14 124:2,16,23 216:13 217:20 219:15 labeled 93:3 94:2,3 554:11 561:17 587:24 layout 89:19,23 125:8,22 126:1 128:11 219:18 220:2 221:10 512:11 592:13 595:18 603:11 lead 181:5 182:24 129:24 131:11,21 234:13,16,17 236:20 labeling 324:18 409:6 603:20,25 604:3,23 190:18 194:18 196:21 132:14 133:19,25 239:9,19,21 249:16 496:14,22 505:9 605:6,15,16 606:9 207:15 213:9,17,21,25 134:4 135:18 136:14 269:21 271:9 277:5,13 523:25 608:13 616:2 617:12 214:7,9,19 215:21 137:21 138:1,21,25 277:14,19 281:16 labelled 49:7 94:9,10 617:22,25 618:7 217:7,17 218:9,12,21 139:24 140:12 141:17 282:23 284:24 286:4 524:12 626:11 630:22 632:16 218:24 219:4,6,13 142:15 143:9,14 144:7 286:22 303:4 313:15 labelled' 94:5 637:17,19 648:1 653:7 222:14,23 224:10 145:10,14 146:4 317:25 323:18 324:4,8 labelling 334:14 653:15 225:2,5,14 244:24 147:11,21,24 148:2 324:12,16,19,25 325:1 labels 328:15 language.' 515:9 245:8 257:1 262:11 150:18 151:7 152:15 325:18 329:23 330:3 Labor 350:5 languages 508:1,15 275:2,23 282:8 288:14 153:1 154:11 155:5,9 332:21 342:7 345:24 laboratories 29:2 34:14 laptop 263:19 282:7 288:22 328:21 336:10 156:25 157:9 158:3 348:5,21 349:1,3 150:3 156:21 300:1 285:22 580:10 392:15,16 541:9 159:6,11,15,19 161:19 359:12 360:10 368:3 laboratory 153:12 laptops 192:13 198:18 552:15 161:22,24 162:13 376:4 389:1 390:21 333:14 462:3 471:12 280:8 282:2,3 285:23 leaders 180:6 552:3 164:8 166:14,18,21,24 391:9 394:16 395:6,17 471:14 large 179:1 181:1 182:16 leadership 43:14 293:14 167:10,21 296:20,21 397:11,18 404:6 laborious 308:6 192:25 195:20 200:23 382:18 342:25 343:2 407:10 415:8 417:20 labs 136:24 141:10 243:21 246:1,4,11 leaderships 180:9 Kennewick 34:12 419:13 429:6 441:24 151:2,20 154:24 156:1 247:21 248:19 249:1 leading 386:16 Kentucky 28:2 441:24 458:20 462:5 474:12 517:23 250:2,10,14,19,23 League 322:2 400:21 kept 153:17 155:25 463:15,17 465:24 lack 91:13 310:24 251:11,15 252:5,16 424:21 428:19,19 395:11 470:13 483:16 500:8 358:13 367:4 432:10 257:15 279:10,13,19 493:24 501:17 520:22 Kerry 2:7 19:25 20:2,10 500:16 506:14 507:4 432:11,12 516:5 576:7 279:21,25 280:7 282:5 leak 441:4 20:14,17 23:8,11 25:6 509:6 517:25 518:10 lacking 383:5 282:15,15,22 289:25 leak- 441:8 25:9 26:1,19 27:20 519:1 560:1 576:19 lacks 173:17 558:7 341:14,15 343:7,14 leakage 377:13 28:13 29:8 30:8,22 579:6 581:12 607:7,15 576:25 344:15 345:2,25 346:3 leaks 441:14,17 31:20 34:21,24 35:3 613:6,7,21 618:16 ladies 12:7 19:25 43:18 349:16,20 350:8 351:8 learn 256:15 key 127:17 235:24,25 628:24 641:2 643:22 72:2 85:15 107:17 354:17 401:17 406:19 learned 185:3 190:11 278:24 279:5 386:1 657:23 119:16,20 120:8 133:3 409:24 486:15 515:3 200:19 543:11 397:2 knowing 94:18 426:5 144:21 146:18 158:17 largely 122:20 360:14 learning 188:13

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 27 leather 127:6 644:5 657:20 250:8 576:16 190:20 192:1 196:25 long 49:8 59:4 64:14 leave 13:4 35:22 41:15 lethal 446:12 Linda 2:9 11:5 20:7 213:17 215:4 246:5 161:11 218:3 299:12 94:17 118:12 168:15 Letonen 5:2 155:7,11,11 585:14,16,16 590:22 247:12 250:13 252:6 358:15 377:1 417:19 376:10 519:4,4 608:5 letter 44:2 85:24 108:2 590:24,24 594:18,20 256:22 257:3,15,16 417:25 446:21 506:6 leaves 156:7 445:5 120:17 133:12 145:4 594:20 597:19,21,21 262:9 274:17,19,24 514:9 530:21 536:3,3 lectured 510:15 147:4 158:24 169:23 625:16,19,19 275:12 279:12 282:24 549:21 554:23 578:20 led 153:15 384:14 177:8 294:2 441:22 line 59:7 60:18 184:13 283:1,2,2,3,9 285:23 609:4 645:1 651:13 Lee 122:24 548:20 202:7 291:1 295:9,18 288:18,20,24 289:1 655:5 left 20:7,14 277:21 letting 79:22 189:14 296:5 303:15 463:15 290:5 longer 56:5 66:11 292:18 327:11 346:11 level 22:13 60:19 61:7,24 490:6 594:4 630:2 little 11:5 54:4,23 166:20 156:13 181:8 196:6 390:8 412:24 498:17 219:16 224:14 243:19 652:20 166:25 171:5 173:2 223:24 227:15 228:8 606:3 613:5 660:4 243:25 249:25 258:24 lined 201:20 187:6,24 191:14 228:21 229:10 264:16 legacy 79:5 127:2,6,7 261:1 290:3,9 364:9 lines 160:10 161:17 219:11 281:25 314:22 324:8 327:12,15 340:7 129:13 130:7 207:15 393:9 407:23 438:19 196:2 388:23 448:6 358:22 496:1,25 506:7 349:3 357:10,22 218:11 488:12,16,21,24 489:1 508:19 629:21 506:24 510:25 512:16 386:14 425:8 480:17 legal 83:5 208:20 324:20 655:23 lineup 314:9 517:8 520:16 576:6 480:24 515:22,23 330:2 425:8 levels 148:7 237:16 lining 130:14 585:14,16,17 590:22 521:2,17 522:17 537:4 legally 568:14 251:15 303:9 364:10 link 109:25 373:17 645:7 590:24,25 594:18,20 565:6,8 574:10 613:10 legislative 568:21 486:16 651:2 650:23 594:21 597:20,21,22 627:1 legislators 364:4,5 levels.' 251:17 linked 41:18 603:21,22 625:17,19 longstanding 297:21 Legislature 208:20 Lewis 185:10 Lion 155:12 156:17 625:20 626:20 641:20 349:7 legitimate 473:17 646:15 Lexington 28:2 Liquefied 158:4,18,23 654:22 look 12:13 35:8 48:2 LEL 260:24 261:7 LFL 259:1,3 159:23 live 369:17 387:23 60:5 65:23 66:20 Lemoff 5:5 159:9,9,18 LFP 247:16,19,23,25 liquid 161:1,2,3,10,17 444:18 446:1 482:20 115:20 126:18 128:1,9 159:20 162:5 166:19 248:2 252:10 163:3 167:8 347:4 552:21 130:16 134:10 141:5 166:19,23,25 liability 333:15 liquids 446:1 lives 335:2 369:9 372:13 143:1,2 163:5 171:6 Lemoff's 166:11 liable 248:25 list 41:10 141:7 201:5 377:17 389:10 398:17 186:3 187:10 206:16 lend 513:4 Liaison 159:22 237:19 299:21 311:24 562:22 587:8 220:14,19 221:3,5,13 length 155:21 438:17 license 275:12 396:19 403:6 419:5 496:20 LLC 26:8 296:22 326:20 226:12 251:12 270:18 602:8 licensed 604:17 509:25 524:14 343:3 436:22 532:11 284:23 306:15 311:10 lengths 435:17 life 26:11 27:3,5 29:17 listed 89:9 93:3 94:2,4,9 551:6 562:10 586:5 312:5 323:20 334:7 lengthy 19:5 443:1,17 30:2 31:6 32:20 33:5,6 94:10 115:22 248:23 606:17 619:12 642:21 349:1 369:4 388:3,7 Leo 11:10 608:8,9 33:13,19 34:1,1,3 249:3 270:9 309:25 649:12 389:1 402:15 405:18 619:23 620:1,1 49:19 50:14 56:16 310:15 312:14,16,17 load 112:13 130:15 470:25 472:20 484:6 lessen 392:18 63:16 88:25 172:21 312:22 329:23 404:15 349:18 505:17 609:25 485:15 492:8,12 lesson 200:20 173:4 185:19 186:24 417:3 420:5 438:2 610:1 620:13,16 505:25 514:2,5 536:3 let's 26:4 30:11 34:21 187:22 188:7,21 189:2 459:14,18,19,22 loads 397:18 557:11 564:16 600:23 607:18 37:14 39:5,5 44:8 48:1 256:14 359:8 387:14 460:10 463:2,20 560:16 575:17 580:12 613:24 619:2 630:4,11 66:16,17 67:4 69:11 387:23 388:6,8 397:20 486:22 512:8,10,11 580:13 632:6 656:7 69:13 86:5 92:11 398:7 406:22 586:13 524:11,13 533:25 local 69:17 82:2 83:2 looked 174:12 224:8,10 100:3 102:10 108:9 587:5 588:20 592:4 568:24 578:15 614:19 206:5 207:4 440:25 277:23 286:3 417:1,6 120:23 125:15 133:19 light 311:13 340:1 347:8 632:13 645:15,18,23 442:5 487:20,22 426:4 452:13 499:25 138:14 145:10 147:11 608:9 620:2 646:9 648:17 649:1,3 locally 68:14 83:2 500:7 576:2 159:6 170:5 177:15 lighting 384:14 651:6 653:7 655:24,25 located 43:6 85:8 107:11 looking 44:17 45:18 185:9,10 212:5 227:7 lightning 433:12,17,19 listen 86:23 143:3 120:1 132:21 144:14 51:17 69:19,24 105:13 228:13 229:1 230:17 433:20 435:11 436:6,8 393:16 427:20 146:11 158:8 169:7 141:3 157:7 185:18 231:1 240:23 249:8 436:9 437:10,15,17 listened 578:8 176:18 203:18 292:25 203:25 220:24 222:22 254:19 263:17 264:1,4 438:9,14 listening 463:8,12 309:19 312:11 397:14 269:8 278:3 286:23 264:21 273:16 294:8 lights 12:23 13:2 35:16 listing 94:4 216:6 275:22 422:14 322:12 388:21 391:12 305:4 315:5,5 339:23 35:21 279:23 505:17 312:24 323:17 324:6,7 location 41:13 181:10 401:8 458:20 582:2 340:13 347:14 349:23 limit 18:10 200:24 245:5 324:15,17 325:1 327:2 196:4 259:9,11 261:5 587:1 615:14 649:7 352:22 356:12 379:16 247:10,14,22 248:4 327:6,11,15,17 328:5 287:10 348:12,16 651:4 382:5 393:16 396:11 249:6,25 251:10 350:1 328:10,10,19 329:6,20 459:20 531:1,6,23 looks 67:7 72:24 205:10 400:16 421:20 424:17 413:3 471:9 474:14 330:6 331:8,11 333:8 609:7 614:8 621:4 229:3 239:24 445:12 428:14 430:24 439:18 483:3 613:16 615:23 333:17 334:14,15 629:23 630:1 509:11 527:24 614:21 453:23 458:1 464:14 616:1 335:10,12,16,23 336:2 locations 182:1,2,18 Lori 8:23 383:17,18 465:6 481:6 493:19 limitation 123:18 238:3 336:2,3,6,19,21 409:5 201:4 219:2 368:23,24 lose 112:12 397:5 498:18,18 501:13 244:25 447:17 482:3 419:9 458:17,19,24 438:16 447:10 528:18 losing 48:14 603:22 504:15 511:15 520:12 482:11 459:15 460:23 461:14 528:21 614:9 630:9 loss 15:10,15 20:20 521:8,23 527:20 limitations 216:9 487:1 462:4 463:2,14 496:14 lock 346:15 88:24 148:8 380:21 537:10 546:10 556:9 487:7,8 496:15,22 523:24 Lofland 10:6 455:3,5 386:11,13 448:6 561:16 566:24 567:12 limited 129:22 133:11 525:7,9 567:8 568:6,7 456:5 459:7,9,10 losses 88:22 90:2 567:12,12 573:13,24 140:2 181:8 236:3,13 568:14,16,19 569:4 467:13,15,16 468:16 lost 15:7 228:1 385:13 574:23 584:6 589:17 239:23 342:9 372:23 571:6,14,15 578:22 478:18,20,21 479:3 385:14 397:22 507:5 593:11 596:14 599:22 375:14 404:9,10 637:24 645:17,25 484:2,3 539:3,5,6 517:18 612:5 615:23 616:1 406:19 438:11 lists 295:22 log 605:2 659:25 660:3 lot 62:9 137:13 140:24 624:17 628:6 633:23 limiting 234:2,17 238:17 literally 270:16 Log-Off 660:4,5,6,7 168:25 185:2,13 637:3 640:12 643:25 limits 244:1 245:11 lithium 189:21 190:1,15 logic 456:20 576:12 189:16 190:10,11

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 28

191:10,11,22 192:1,3 325:17 509:11 532:2 112:19 311:22 326:10 marinas 357:17 406:17 134:12,20,21,24 135:9 193:13 201:19 207:1 major 109:7 245:4 443:12 444:21,25 marine 89:12 161:13 170:25 173:24 174:1 208:22 220:20 221:10 261:10 275:4 276:9 538:24 580:14 Marino 4:13 132:18 242:9 243:5 244:14,19 221:12 223:11 235:9 288:7 310:2 316:4 manufacture 316:8 133:2,3,19 135:18,20 266:5,10 267:2,6,8,24 236:11 238:9,9 262:16 397:13 462:25 587:25 327:12 334:18 335:12 137:25 139:24 140:1 279:7 280:3 307:11,13 277:24 282:1 284:1,1 592:14 595:18 617:20 588:20 143:13 144:5 309:14 310:14 311:1 284:4,6 285:21 286:3 626:11 manufactured 324:11,12 Maritime 87:5 325:16 331:5 366:4 288:1,10 290:6 317:21 majority 16:9 18:2 36:13 337:22 461:22 525:1 mark 2:13 3:12 4:7 8:13 394:11 408:19,22,24 336:22 351:8 388:25 88:13 96:12 110:19 531:2,3 8:14 9:8 21:13,13,16 408:25 409:9 414:2 389:9 396:11,24 152:9 179:1 217:12,13 manufacturer 203:9 21:18,22,25 22:4,11 415:8,21,22 416:25,25 469:13 506:3 551:25 365:14 381:14,21 316:7 333:10,15 389:3 22:14,25 23:9 44:14 419:13 425:21 427:15 580:5 601:11 605:17 415:11 432:9 603:24 406:10,10 431:14 44:15,21,24 45:4,10 435:15 458:18 462:7 651:4 maker 17:3,5 18:20 459:21 491:5 500:14 45:15,16 51:7,8,12,14 466:4 486:14 488:5 lots 313:17,20 382:4 55:13 66:9 67:25 515:23 518:9,19 51:16 56:18 61:12,13 498:4,17 499:15 514:9 605:17 80:21 86:18 197:23 519:12 522:18 524:23 65:20,22 66:20,22 517:17 523:2,3,7,7,10 loud 13:1 35:20 227:13 228:6,16,19 525:3 558:3 588:10 67:6 107:8,17 111:2 524:9 584:17 585:5,8 louder 323:8 229:8 264:15 340:6 592:1,2 598:13,22 117:13 293:9 312:24 585:9 590:5,17,18 Louis 32:5 530:9,11 404:5 416:24 480:16 manufacturer's 324:15 323:17,23 324:6,7,15 591:18 593:16 594:6 Louisiana 396:20 480:23 499:1 521:2,16 502:5 324:16,17 325:1 327:2 594:13,14 595:9 597:6 love 313:12 314:19 537:3 546:12 573:15 manufacturers 149:8 327:17 328:5,10,10,19 597:10,14,15 625:4,12 510:2,22 527:18 573:17 574:8 276:1 294:14 295:2,16 329:6,8,20 330:6 625:13 638:4,8,11,23 low 167:18 202:8 299:18 makers 547:6 553:15 303:10,12 316:24 331:8,11 333:8,17 648:2 654:14 442:6 498:13 651:1,2 575:3 356:15 366:19 379:21 335:10,20 336:2,6,6 material' 114:3 655:22 making 22:1 49:1 114:21 380:7 402:14 410:9 336:19,21,23,24,25 materials 24:6 50:4 lower 204:10 243:21 188:11 204:4 205:8 416:8 460:22 516:7 337:2,2,25 355:4,5,6 81:24 88:24 90:7,8,22 247:25 251:15 488:24 216:14 243:10 267:10 541:25 547:5,19 356:8 358:5,5 364:20 91:3,5 93:3 100:18 489:18,20 280:12 306:2 307:3 549:23 550:14 552:12 364:22,23 365:18 109:11,12,15,17,19 lowered 251:10 343:23 359:20 380:11 559:23 560:12 567:5 373:5,7,8 381:5,7,8 110:21 111:14 112:2,7 lowering 242:15 382:12 460:14 539:15 574:3,20 575:2,13 393:22,22 395:20,23 112:10 113:13 114:3,7 Lubster 9:14 420:8,8 561:25 601:13 603:15 578:3 585:20 591:3,4 396:1,4 402:7,9,10 114:19 115:7 116:3 lucky 188:22 611:7 615:10 616:17 597:25 625:24 407:15,15 415:23 126:20,24 127:7,10,12 ludicrous 425:6 632:25 manufactures 406:11 416:1,3 446:19,19 127:13 130:8,9,9,11 luminaire 311:14 MALE 395:19,25 396:3,8 manufacturing 107:25 452:11,11 525:7,9 130:12 131:2,9 134:22 lumped 57:1 220:21 398:24,25 399:1,9,10 319:4 344:12 374:8 637:24 135:2,15 137:9,14,17 232:19,23 401:3,13 412:2 514:17 518:12 549:25 Mark's 23:2,4 163:20,22 169:22 lumping 214:15 malfunction 380:18 550:11 556:17 570:5 marked 12:14 35:9 171:14,15 173:25 lunch 118:12,13 168:14 386:1,18 578:12 614:11 175:17 237:13 271:25 168:15 man 349:24,24 505:12 map 623:14 market 12:19 35:13 486:6,7,18,23 629:13 luxury 358:8 manage 190:18 200:10 Marcelo 4:4 86:8,8,17,17 225:17 462:9 469:8 Materials' 127:2 Lyons 6:17 240:1,2 200:14,16 201:5 87:8 90:17,17 92:14 561:9 mathematical 123:3 374:7,8 418:6,7 managed 190:10 195:22 92:14,23,23 94:7,7 markets 275:11 460:25 Matt 5:22 189:6,7 235:1 461:10,11 468:9,9 196:1 248:11 95:16,16,25,25 97:5,5 marking 334:8,13,15 235:2 289:13,13,20 484:22,23 542:6,9,9 management 12:25 98:8,8,18,18 100:6,6 508:18 578:24 620:20,21 28:24 29:5 35:18 100:15,15 102:2,2,11 marks 327:20 512:12 matter 69:22 186:25 M 216:8 261:19 548:13 102:11 103:23,23 Marmon 140:16 200:19 269:12 358:7 M 96:22 97:14 490:15 manager 177:25 505:15 104:7,7 105:21,21 Marsh 107:8 479:4 489:22 519:13 Ma 651:11 manager's 509:10 106:21,23 108:12,12 Marshal 23:13 24:19 554:16 609:14 620:9 machine 324:19 325:9 managing 190:20 108:23,23 113:22,22 Marshals 432:9 437:21 654:16 338:3,5 200:15 116:19,19 121:1,1,16 MARY 1:22 661:5,18 matters 16:21 180:13 magically 91:4 Manche 2:23 9:16 27:23 121:16 124:7,7 125:18 Maryland 34:17 43:5 396:13 445:9 magneto 650:13 28:1 367:21,21 421:23 125:18 126:4,4 127:5 292:24 Maumee 34:7 main 23:23 48:7 49:10 421:23 422:7,7,25 130:4,4 133:22,22 mass 202:5 Max 214:13 303:10 49:10 211:14 299:14 423:6 134:6,6 136:19,19 Massachusetts 25:23 maximum 48:4 54:9 325:3 450:1 545:17 mandate 260:8 445:1 138:17,17,18 139:3,3 119:25 144:12 208:15 241:19 243:12,18 555:21 573:1 602:2 mandated 149:20 141:18,18 152:17,17 391:8,15,19,20,21 438:10 470:22 603:17 607:17 610:8 409:16 442:4 152:17 193:3,3,8 482:1,4 483:11 491:16 MBR' 508:18 610:18 614:6 616:14 mandates 382:14 446:4 237:25,25 268:22,22 491:19 661:12 MC 466:20 528:13,20,22 mains 200:16 mandatory 82:21,23 280:25,25 281:7,10 massage 314:21 528:24 529:5,11,17,21 maintain 41:22 152:21 116:12 149:16 260:18 289:16 320:4,4 398:22 massive 196:5 384:17 529:23 531:16 533:1 261:7 363:4 515:6 269:16 443:10 398:22 448:21,21 master 270:8 383:23,25 533:14,25 534:11 540:6 548:24 manganese 252:11 457:1,1,4,6 460:4,4 396:18 419:20 509:25 McClarnen 9:7 405:3,4 maintained 121:25 Manhattan 176:16 485:4,4,9,12 553:9,9 match 162:24 389:23 McCoy 11:22 645:5 maintains 353:23 372:5 manifold 436:18 553:15 628:9,9,19 matches 196:13 656:3,3 maintenance 27:10 28:9 manner 58:18 64:18 632:21,21 634:1,1,5,7 material 90:23,24 109:6 McDevitt 4:2 85:5,13,15 28:10 32:10 33:15,24 154:23,24 359:6 634:18,19 636:5,8 109:13,23 111:14 86:5 88:11,13 91:20 43:2,20 44:1 52:3 507:21 578:12 640:15,15,24,24 112:3 114:11 116:23 93:13,15 94:23 96:9 147:2 163:10 201:9 mantle 188:10 Marcelo's 282:19 123:17 127:7 128:16 96:11 97:13 98:24 262:15 316:13 325:6 manual 22:22 109:2,3 margin 381:21 129:11,14 131:3 99:1,13 100:22,24

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 29

101:10 102:19,20 486:9 515:25 525:12 269:13,17 275:6 367:5 141:13,21 149:13 166:18 170:7 172:6 103:4,5 104:12,14 552:13 622:3 651:13 372:20 392:11 417:19 153:16 269:7 341:19 173:8 174:8,18 175:9 106:3,4 107:1,2 meeting 1:5 12:2,9 13:13 437:1 441:5,13,23 382:20 440:16 466:8 177:18 178:8 180:18 McGinley 34:6 14:8,14,17 15:4,12,20 442:25 443:16,22,25 486:18 487:4 488:15 184:6 185:23 186:16 McHammish 8:16 15:23 16:4,14 17:25 502:21,24 514:7 488:16 518:11,15,16 189:4 191:3,4 193:1 359:18,19 365:23,24 18:7 19:15,19 20:2,4 515:10 597:24 602:9 529:2 541:7 598:12 194:5 195:7 197:6,10 375:11,12 22:14,25 24:2 35:2 604:16 605:12 618:17 methods' 142:25 198:7 199:22 201:19 McKenzie 9:11 418:12 36:5,8,17,20,21 37:2,5 631:21 643:1 649:18 mic 65:25 87:7 90:14 201:21 202:16 204:12 418:12 497:8,8,13,15 43:9 58:24 59:17 membership 15:9 16:7 187:6 262:3 289:17 205:5,24 208:2 209:10 497:18 518:5,6 598:4 85:11 102:20 107:14 16:21,22 17:17 18:6 301:23 307:19,23 212:6 217:1 218:5,16 598:5 119:8 120:4 129:9 18:15 19:11 36:12 326:18 331:17 351:20 220:5 221:17,20 223:4 McLaughlin 3:1 28:17 132:24 141:13 144:17 59:16,17,23 112:21 356:12 368:11 369:15 224:21 227:8,22 28:20 145:20 146:14 154:2 116:16 118:19 168:22 370:4 373:6 381:6 228:14 229:3 231:3 McMorrow 7:1 283:15 154:18 158:11 169:10 197:4 214:24 375:7 415:25 416:24 425:24 234:25 235:22 237:7 283:15 173:13 176:21 230:5 418:20 427:9 441:15 467:14 237:23 238:21,22 me.' 143:3 265:21 270:9 271:3,3 441:19 451:10,14 Michael 6:1 7:4 194:7,7 239:25 240:24 244:6 mean 54:16 88:4 130:16 271:15 293:3 300:18 453:15 458:16 465:23 227:10,10,24,24 245:18 247:3 249:10 152:7 167:2 219:24 315:3 347:1 381:14 471:19 598:8,16 292:23 293:8,18 251:4,24 252:20 253:2 310:16 347:5,6 390:2 412:9 435:14 437:1 602:10 606:12 619:7 296:12 304:8 306:22 254:20 260:1 261:13 450:22 487:18 508:21 442:23 443:13 527:9 Membership's 18:18 307:24 308:1 326:2 263:18 264:22 268:21 509:9 630:8 530:22 531:9 532:14 121:8 337:7 338:16,19 269:24 270:21 272:4 meaning 41:11 54:11 602:8 606:20 619:15 Membrane 27:7 342:22 352:6 354:25 273:17 278:11 280:23 266:24 641:21,24 642:3,24 Memorial 123:5 364:17 373:2 381:2 281:21 283:13 285:16 meaningful 276:15 647:19 649:15,16 men 346:16 402:4 411:8 415:7 287:18 289:11 290:11 meaningless 394:14 660:13,15,19 mention 196:23 392:7 423:3 424:1 425:17 294:10 296:18 299:1 meanings 306:17 Meeting's 16:2 490:18 540:8 656:6 427:23 429:16 430:9 299:22 301:10 302:6 means 54:15 58:12 meetings 13:18 16:15 mentioned 182:12,15 433:3 439:2 442:10 305:12 308:25 311:2 110:6 117:1 127:3 22:10 61:16 130:24 187:13 217:6,18 218:2 451:17 452:22 454:22 313:6 314:23 315:23 135:8 139:10 142:11 162:3 181:2 221:6,8 220:16 249:23 301:25 457:12 459:4 463:25 316:21 317:3 318:20 149:19,25 173:3 221:10 265:22 270:6 318:25 331:4 365:11 467:10 478:13,16 320:2 321:23 328:1 183:15 187:2 188:15 270:10 277:2 373:24 375:15 394:15 400:12 479:12 483:22 493:6 329:1,13 330:13,23 211:13 216:9 269:19 440:13 594:24 605:19 404:10 438:6 469:15 494:22 500:24 502:10 332:22 333:21 335:6 342:9,10 361:17 617:24,25 474:9 518:8 519:1 507:10 510:21,24 336:12 339:25 340:14 391:11 417:3 506:22 meets 54:5 55:18 134:15 540:9 541:12 563:16 511:2 512:20 519:23 342:25 344:4 345:7 508:20 563:6 601:3,6 134:15 329:7 414:11 563:23 571:6,17,21 522:23 530:3,9 536:13 346:21 347:16,24 601:10 602:4 607:12 458:21 500:14 525:8 575:18 635:21 538:22 549:8 559:11 349:9 350:11 351:1 607:15,16 613:2,3,16 543:14 mentions 357:7 569:23 577:18 585:2 352:24 355:4 356:19 613:20,23 614:3,11,12 Mellow 10:9 461:18,19 Mercantile 32:25 589:3 590:14 592:22 358:3,19 359:16 614:23 620:12,15 461:19 462:1 470:10 merchant 89:10 594:10 595:24 596:1 360:19 362:8 364:21 621:13 623:5,11,17,18 470:10,10 608:22,22 merely 83:6 597:9 599:7,9 602:14 365:22 366:17,23 623:19,21 630:6 656:9 609:2 merit 51:25 611:14 615:3 624:2 367:20 371:18 374:5 meant 508:25 Mellows 608:23 met 54:7,10 93:11 625:9 627:13 631:6 374:13 375:9,22 measure 87:1 134:21 member 21:21,23,24 173:12 267:17 315:2 633:9 635:1 636:13 376:16 377:21 379:18 384:11 385:6 620:23 23:18 25:13 105:5 436:25 529:1 638:3 639:22 641:11 381:6 382:7 383:15 measured 128:3 118:18 130:23 140:18 metal 190:8 373:21 643:7 647:10 656:21 385:19 386:25 388:15 measurements 88:2 140:18 159:21 162:21 375:4 429:8 434:4 Michelle 2:3 20:11 390:18 392:2 393:20 measures 172:22 438:13 164:10 168:20 172:10 466:15 473:17 474:1 Michigan 482:2,4 396:13 398:20,21 466:4 180:21,21 195:1,10,11 513:14 microphone 17:6 44:10 400:18 402:8,25 measuring 91:16 212:10 237:9 245:22 metallic 488:15 529:6 44:11,13 47:4 48:18 403:24 405:1 406:4 mechanical 232:6,8 249:13 252:1 260:3 531:17 533:25 48:18 49:17 51:6 407:12 408:11 409:11 258:23 259:2 260:9,23 270:24 301:14 353:17 metallurgical 458:25 53:10 56:14 57:14 410:7,13 413:8 416:17 260:24 351:23 488:12 354:5 368:19 376:21 462:2 59:12 61:10 62:1 418:3,11,22 419:17 488:17,21 381:17 406:8 437:10 metals 151:17 465:25 63:14 64:9 66:18 69:2 420:7 421:21 423:10 mechanism 142:23 446:20 453:13 469:15 466:5,9,13 473:17 80:6,15,17,18 83:18 423:18 424:18 426:17 143:7 473:13 516:23 534:2,4 474:4 86:7 90:16 92:12 427:6,12 428:15 mechanisms 201:10 534:6 541:18 564:12 meter 247:8 248:5 93:23 94:6 95:15 97:3 429:19 430:25 433:7 medical 31:11 358:9,9 586:6,9,14 601:15 meters 166:4,6 441:7 98:7 100:4 101:6,25 435:5,20 436:20 437:5 358:10 387:17 390:2 609:4 620:3 629:15 654:23 103:21 105:1,20 439:19 442:14 444:5 394:17,17 632:4 652:24 655:5 methane 441:4 106:20 108:11 111:19 446:18 448:19 449:6 medium 314:9 429:5,8 656:5 method 93:6 110:9 113:5,21 115:3,12 450:16 451:20 452:10 429:12,25 498:13 members 16:16,17,20 112:16,16 116:8,13 116:18 120:25 121:14 453:25 455:3,24 517:14,15 524:10 18:1,3 22:8 32:3 65:2 127:22 135:5,8 136:8 124:5 125:16 126:3 456:15,24 458:2 459:8 meet 37:6 55:19 56:19 75:21,23 88:20 136:12 140:8,9 141:23 281:19 130:3 133:21 136:18 460:2,16 461:8,16 56:20 57:4,19 58:10 140:6 148:9 162:4 482:10 486:10 488:22 138:15 139:1 140:15 462:14 463:5 464:15 59:3 64:3 83:4 93:3 178:11 180:16 193:13 528:17 529:22 563:18 141:17 142:17 147:13 465:7 468:7,14 470:8 94:16,18 98:23 105:24 194:12,13 202:8 563:19,21 151:11 152:15 153:1 471:22 473:7 474:18 105:25 245:9 285:7 205:19 242:5 243:4 method,' 142:23 154:11 155:7,10 159:8 476:11 478:19 480:2 301:1 313:3 329:10 266:3,19,22 267:22 methods 50:3 135:24 159:16 162:17 164:8 481:8 484:1,20 485:2

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 30

485:24 488:8 489:5 387:2,2,10 423:11,11 192:15 76:8,8,10,23,25 78:4,5 210:19 211:7,12,12,14 490:7 491:8 492:3,18 495:19,19 530:6,8,16 mode 563:4 78:6 80:5,8,12,12,21 211:15,17,19,25 212:3 493:20 495:1,18,22 530:19,21 541:1,2,4 model 128:22 81:1,7 82:13,17 83:12 212:4,6,12,15,20 497:6,22 498:20 499:7 587:15,15 modeling 246:8 83:15,21 84:8,8,12,13 213:1 215:19 216:24 499:23 501:14 502:14 mile 202:7,9 moderate 88:17 84:19,20,21 86:7,11 217:1,5 218:8,15,19 503:2,6,15 504:16 miles 565:7 modern 128:20 129:14 86:16,19 87:24 90:10 219:3 220:3,8 221:25 507:14 508:10 509:14 milliamps 576:17,20 130:8 384:13 90:13,16,19 91:15,18 224:20,25 225:19 510:18 511:16 512:23 580:1 modest 149:12 91:22,22,25 92:2,8,9 226:16,18,18,21,23 513:21 514:13 516:9 million 194:13 202:3 modification 123:13 92:10,12,18,18,25 227:4,5,6,8,11,12,14 516:20 518:3,20 519:7 225:8 386:11 406:14 modified 392:13,17 93:12,20,22 94:1,20 227:16,17,20,22,25 520:13,18 521:9,24 406:18 407:17 408:1 modify 68:19 81:21 83:9 94:25,25 95:3,5,10,11 228:5,6,8,10,12,14,16 523:15 524:6,17 409:15 393:1 95:12,14,19,24 96:2,7 228:18,20,22,23 229:1 525:15,21 527:24 millions 217:16 modifying 392:20 97:2,7,10,16,17,19,21 229:3,6,7,9,11,12,15 530:7 532:8,19 533:21 mind 12:14 188:17 288:9 598:25 98:2,3,4,6,11,17,20 230:22 231:2,7,12,14 534:9 535:19 537:11 314:16 318:11 388:4 moisture 363:17 369:20 99:8,10,15,15,18,20 233:16 234:22,24 539:4,19,23 541:21 514:4 443:8 444:11,18 445:6 99:25 100:1,2,4,9,17 235:3,20 236:10 237:6 542:5,14 543:6,24 mindful 13:5 35:23 445:22 101:3,5,7,11,14,15,21 237:9 238:2,19 239:3 544:20 545:2 546:12 mine 73:13 541:4 mold 372:15 101:22,23,25 102:5,10 239:15,21 240:10,10 549:15 551:4,20 553:7 minimal 50:10 160:5 molded 308:13 405:11 102:13,25 103:1,2,7,7 240:13,15,21,22,24 554:2,25 556:10,11 278:23 409:15 410:3 103:10,12,17,18,19,21 241:4,9,12,14,16,18 559:16 561:1 562:7 minimally 18:2 moment 12:9 198:2 104:1,6,8,21,22 105:9 243:11 244:4,6,11 563:11 564:8 565:16 minimize 276:11 343:9 216:22 305:6 105:19 106:1,6,6,9,11 245:25 246:4 247:6 566:25 571:1 572:5 438:18 441:14 443:5 money 47:13,24 348:14 106:16,17,18 108:11 249:8,13 251:7 252:3 573:14,16,25 574:25 minimize' 233:4 384:17 385:9 108:16,22,25 111:17 252:19,25 253:7,10,11 577:22 579:15,16 minimizing 438:17 monitoring 260:23,24 111:19,22 113:8,11,24 253:15,16,18,19,20,23 580:19 581:2,11 minimum 122:9,12 586:21,25 115:5,16,18 116:17,20 253:24 254:16,17,18 582:23 583:4 584:7 233:23 259:5 469:10 Monoxide 29:20 117:7,16,16,20,22 254:20,23,25 255:5,21 585:15 586:2 587:13 472:20,25 month 150:24 151:24 118:2,3,4 121:5,9,14 256:2,3 257:22 259:23 587:19 588:4 589:1,18 Minister 34:12 152:3 154:17 156:14 121:18 124:3,5,9,17 259:25 261:12,22,23 590:23 591:11,23 minor 123:22 519:15 months 151:18,19 152:8 124:25,25 125:3,5,12 261:25 262:4,6,25 592:9 593:12 594:19 644:19 157:8 188:16,16 125:13,14,16,22 126:3 263:4,4,7,8,14,15,16 595:4,14 596:15 minute 18:11 76:12 246:21 333:13 338:4 126:6 129:25 130:2,6 263:18,23 264:3,12,14 597:20 598:3,18 118:10,23 168:13 Moore 11:13 293:12 131:12,23,23 132:1,3 264:15,16,18,20,22 599:23 602:18 604:11 229:16,18 246:14 638:15,16,17 641:14 132:7,8,8 133:21,25 265:1,5,8,8 267:12 606:14,25 608:7,21 322:5 339:14,18,19 641:16,17 647:13,15 134:5,8 135:21,22 268:18,20,24 269:23 609:19 612:6 615:7 526:22 605:9 647:15 136:15,17,21 137:22 270:5 271:1 272:3,11 617:5 619:10,21,25 minutes 18:9 70:1 72:9 morning 12:7 19:25 138:2,3,5,7,12,12,12 272:15,17,18,19,23,24 620:19 621:19,19 118:25 332:7 333:21 20:24 21:7,12 23:12 138:15,21 139:1,5 272:25 273:2,3,5,7,13 622:15 624:18 625:17 411:24 412:3 526:25 35:3 40:5 43:1 59:13 140:5,13,15,17 141:16 273:14,15,17,23 274:1 626:5,15 628:7 631:9 644:2 79:15 85:15 111:21 141:20 142:16,20 274:6,12,14 278:7,9 632:1,19 633:24 635:4 mirrors 481:25 154:13 172:7 192:7 143:10,16,16,19,21 278:11,15,20 280:16 635:17,24 637:4 miscellaneous 23:25 602:19 652:1 144:1,1,1 145:12,16 281:2,2,20,25 285:10 638:15 639:13,19 27:8 32:22 moron 509:4 147:13,17,22,25 285:19 287:21 289:7 640:13 642:18 644:6 misconception 182:23 motion 14:6,19,24 15:3 150:22 151:8,10,15 289:15 290:14,17 647:14 648:7 649:9,20 misleading 126:21 17:4,6,12,15,21,22,24 152:6,19,25 154:15 291:12,14,15,20,21,21 651:23 652:19 653:23 127:15,24 131:10 18:16,18,21,21,23,23 155:6,13 156:23 157:1 291:24,25 292:2,4,10 654:8 655:2 656:1 267:22 19:1,3,4,7,8,13 37:15 157:11,11,14,15,21,21 292:11,12 294:10,18 microphones 17:21,22 misplaced 543:16 37:19,20,22,24,25 157:21 159:8,12,16 294:23 296:8,25 299:5 84:4 209:19 290:19 missed 236:6 239:24 38:2,4,21,22,23 40:8,9 161:18 162:2,5,14,16 299:8,20 300:2 301:19 320:15 361:1 370:10 338:12 499:14,19 40:11,13,14,16,18,19 162:20,25 163:17 301:21,22 302:11,15 378:8 399:6 420:15 missing 47:13,25 48:15 41:2,3,4,8,8,9 42:7,8,8 164:7,10,15 166:11,15 304:3,5,10,10,13,14 449:12 475:6 527:22 258:2 516:14 42:9,16,17,18,22 166:22,23 167:11,22 304:20,21,22 305:1,2 555:6 565:21 572:11 mission 21:2 202:12,14 44:23,25 45:1,2,4,5,5 167:22,25 168:1,7,7,7 305:5,16,21,23 306:2 581:6 620:6 203:25 473:13 562:21 47:1,4,9,10 48:16,22 170:7,10,12,17 172:3 306:7,10,23 308:23,25 mics 99:9 307:22 338:13 Missouri 30:15 32:5 49:13,20 51:14 52:12 172:5,8 173:6,7,12,14 309:5 311:6 313:4,10 mid-rise 482:7 530:9 52:14,21,21,24,25 174:3,21,25 175:2,7 315:2,4,22 316:2,20 middle 20:10 285:8 mistake 193:25 301:5 53:6,7,8,10,14,17,20 175:11,22,22,25 176:1 317:1,7 318:24 319:13 305:21 372:21 607:18 396:5 551:17 54:24 55:5,6,14 56:1,5 176:7 177:17 178:2 319:18 320:11,23,25 midnight 657:14 mistakes 393:17 56:11,13,16,17,23 180:17,21,23 183:21 321:1,2,7,8,8,9,11,13 migration 441:17 Mitchell 9:22 437:7,8 57:18 59:10,15,17 184:8 185:22 189:3,12 321:19,20,21,23 322:2 Mikat 7:5 294:12,13,25 mitigated 231:19 233:18 61:9,13 63:6,7,16 64:6 189:23 190:25 191:7 322:23,25 323:1,4,11 294:25 546:13,14 mitigating 233:24 64:12,22 65:5,5,8,10 193:8,10 194:3,9 323:15 326:21 327:24 547:3,3 552:23 554:4 mitigating' 233:3 65:15,16,17,18,22 195:4,15 197:5,11,21 328:1,5,25 329:4,12 554:4 mitigation 438:8 66:3,9,11,13,15,18,21 197:23 198:14 199:5 330:18,20 331:2 Mike 5:19 7:20 9:1 10:24 mix 367:13 66:24 67:4,7,24,25 199:16,24 201:25 333:19 334:4,5 335:9 185:25,25 307:22 mixed 199:15 68:3,10,24 69:1,5 70:4 202:13,15,19 204:18 336:16 337:4,19 316:23,23 326:22 mixture 110:8 70:6,12,13,16,18 205:9 208:10,12 338:21,21,24 339:1,7 338:14 356:14,14 mobile 13:11 14:10 36:4 72:18,19,20 73:20 209:17,24 210:1,2,12 339:8,9,24 340:2,5,7,8

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 31

340:10,12,14,21,24 451:14,25 452:6,8,10 544:16,25 545:7,9,10 636:25 637:1,1,4,7,10 254:10 258:5,10 341:1,5 343:4 344:2,4 452:20,24,24 453:1,3 545:15,18,18,19,22,24 637:14,16 638:19 264:20,24 292:14 344:7 345:6 346:20,24 453:9,10,11,24 454:5 546:3,4,4,6,7,11,12,21 639:11,13,15,20,25,25 294:6,16 305:16 347:1,20 349:14 350:9 455:6,19,22,24 456:1 547:2,8 548:23 549:19 640:3,4,10,10,10,13 340:12 362:10 371:20 350:25 351:4,18,22 456:14,18,23 457:5,7 550:24 551:1,3,7,18 640:19,23 641:1,2,19 391:6 393:1 396:12 352:9,9,12,14,19,20 457:9,15,15,18,20,24 551:23 553:3,11,16 642:16,18,23,25 643:2 398:13 399:12 401:25 352:21,23 353:2,7,7 457:25,25 458:2,8,16 554:1,6 555:4,11,13 643:4,10,10,13,14,19 415:14 431:2,15 353:14,18,20,22 458:17 459:12,13,25 555:14,20,21,22,22 643:20,20,20 644:1,6 439:22 449:9 450:19 354:21 355:11 356:10 460:2,15,21 461:7,10 556:1,3,7,8,8,10,19,22 644:11,13,17 646:13 454:3 458:6 464:25 356:12,16,22 357:13 461:13,25 462:1,21 557:2,6,8 558:25 647:18 648:5,7,11 465:3,11 471:21 358:2,7 360:18,24 463:4,10,12,22 464:3 559:20 560:22,24 649:8,14,17,18 650:3 476:15 480:21 481:3,4 361:6,8,9,15,16,16,17 464:3,6,8,12,13,15,18 561:1 562:11 563:9,14 650:7 651:18,19,22 504:17 521:6,21 361:22,24 362:4,5,6 465:7,13,18,22 466:11 564:7,12 565:13,19,22 652:5,9,16,24 654:11 526:10 528:1 537:8 362:14,22,25 363:3,3 466:14 467:19 468:3,5 566:1,3,4,11,12,15,17 655:1,6 656:5,16,18 545:17 546:18 562:4 364:14 365:1,20,22,25 468:7,11,16 469:18 566:22,23,23,25 656:24,24 657:2,4,25 566:11 573:1,22 574:4 366:20 367:2,19,22 470:7,12 472:3,17,23 567:13,16,22,25 570:4 657:25 658:2,4,9 574:14 600:3 612:11 368:14 370:8,15,17,18 472:24 473:11 474:16 570:22,24 571:1,5 659:2,4,6,17,17,18,18 628:10 634:7 640:16 370:24,24,25 371:2,3 475:4,11,13,14,19,22 572:3,9,16,18,19,25 motion's 19:4,10 604:21 659:21 371:7,9,14,15,16,18 475:22,25 476:1,6,7,7 573:1,2,2,5,6,11,12,12 605:10 621:24 moved 73:17 354:18 371:22 372:2,5,5,23 476:9,17,24 477:1,3 573:14,15,17,19,20,22 motions 13:18,25 14:11 359:10 422:12 553:16 373:10 374:3,5,7,11 477:11 478:2,6,7,23 573:25 574:4,7,9,10 14:12,13,14,15,23,25 movement 553:22 374:17 375:13,21,25 479:9,15,15,18,20,24 574:12,14,16,17,25 15:1,7,10,14 16:6 17:2 mover 113:10 586:18 376:19 377:20 378:6 479:25,25 480:2,4,14 575:4,6,11,14 578:1 18:20,25 36:11 37:10 moves 370:25 553:21 378:13,15,16,24,24,25 480:16,18,19,21,22,23 579:11,13,15,19 41:10,11,14 42:7,10 moving 79:4 95:13 98:5 379:1,2,2,6,13,14,15 480:25 481:1,3,7,10 580:24 581:7,8,15,16 42:12,12,13 43:8 166:10 185:5 238:5 379:17,21,24 380:4,8 481:12,24 483:19 582:1,10 583:2,5,9,11 44:10 85:10 86:22 265:14 367:25 387:18 380:24 381:12 382:2,4 484:15,18,20,22,24 583:12,17,18,19,20,22 96:4 107:13 118:19 453:23 517:17 545:17 382:10 383:14 385:18 485:8,10,13,23 486:2 583:24 584:4,4,4,7,9 120:3,25 132:23 555:21 601:11 615:16 385:23 386:3,21,24 486:3 488:7,11 489:3 584:10,15 585:19,23 144:16 146:13 158:10 628:19,22 387:9,10,11 388:20 489:7 491:14,24 492:1 585:25 586:2,6 587:12 168:22 169:9 176:20 MSL 28:20 390:17 391:1,3 392:1 492:7,17,21 493:3,9,9 587:16,23 588:3,11,22 180:22 182:13 195:5 multi-case 406:16 393:19 396:9 398:13 493:11,13,17,18,18,20 588:24 589:6,6,9,10 293:2 302:19 304:24 multifamily 482:14 399:4,12,14,15,20,21 493:24 494:1,8,10 589:15,16,16,18,20,22 305:1,2 313:21 315:7 488:13,19 489:23 399:21,22,23,24 400:1 495:6,15,20 496:4,5 590:2 591:1,7,9,11,16 354:3 426:22 427:17 492:9,13,14,23 400:3,9,10,11,17,21 497:14 498:2,3,18,25 591:21 592:8,12,17,19 427:20 433:23 453:15 multiple 70:21,25 82:11 401:1,5 402:12,22,24 499:1,10,17,23 500:5 592:25,25 593:3,4,9 453:19,19,20 468:17 89:17 153:22 193:20 403:2,23 404:4,5,17 500:21 501:2,2,4,6,11 593:10,10,12,19,21,23 499:12,13 516:2 248:10,14 250:21 404:25 405:5 406:3,8 501:12,12,14,16,19,25 594:2,22,25 595:2,4,8 537:11 572:3 617:11 344:14 345:13 415:10 407:5,16 408:15 502:18 503:3,5,15,19 595:13,17,20,22 596:3 620:6 627:5 637:17 438:15 483:7 529:7,9 410:10 411:3,5,10,10 503:21,22 504:4,5,7,9 596:3,6,7,12,13,13,15 motor 85:4,17,23 88:18 529:10 585:20 591:3 411:13,15,20,21,22 504:13,14,14,16,18,19 596:18,20,25 597:23 93:18 294:13 295:1 603:2,6 605:20 617:24 413:7,10,12,18 415:4 504:24 505:1 507:18 598:1,7,9,16,21 599:2 311:15 329:21 384:13 644:20 416:5,15,17,21,24 508:3,8,10,13 509:18 599:4,11,11,14,16,20 425:11 546:14 547:4 multiply 603:8 418:2,6,13,20,25 510:18 511:4,4,7,8,13 599:21,21,23 600:5,11 554:5 567:3,24 568:23 MULVANEY 11:1 419:16,21 420:13,21 511:14,14,16,20,22 600:15 602:11,24 586:17,20 Mulvany 542:16,17 420:23,24 421:4,5,6,7 512:2 513:2,19,21 604:7,9,11,15,20 motors 299:7 390:1 Mundy 3:3 29:11,14 421:7,10,11,17,18,19 514:1,10,10,16 516:8 605:1,1,2,4,8 606:12 motors' 329:22 municipalities 48:11 421:21,24 422:1,6,8,9 516:12,16,24 518:7,19 606:19,22,24 607:5,14 move 25:10 35:1 37:13 140:8 423:4,8,10,14,17 518:23 519:10,17,20 608:5,12 609:1,2,18 37:22 40:12 44:6 municipality 140:11 424:4,4,7,8,14,15,16 520:1,1,4,5,10,11,11 609:21 610:12 611:10 48:18 49:20 51:5 52:7 MUSIC 12:6 119:2,15 424:17,21,22 425:2 520:13,14,23,25 521:2 611:17,17,21,22 612:3 52:18 53:13 61:10,19 229:22 230:12 339:21 426:6,15,17,21,24 521:3,5,7,9,12,13,15 612:3,3,6,13,18 61:25 63:14 64:9 412:5,16 527:3,16 427:9,11,14 428:1,1,4 521:17,18,20,22,24 614:25 617:3,5,8,9,10 66:15 70:8 84:23 86:3 660:18 428:5,11,12,13,15,17 522:2,3,8 523:19 617:13,18,20,21 618:3 86:9 92:15 95:17 98:9 Myers 4:1 5:24 80:9,9,10 428:21 429:2 430:4,6 524:4,6,8,21 525:14 619:8,14,17,19 620:4 100:7 101:8 102:3 80:10,16,21,23,25 430:11,11,14,15,21,22 525:19 526:1,3,4,10 620:18 621:22 622:22 103:24 106:25 108:6 81:7,8 113:7,7 114:18 430:23,25 431:3,5,11 526:11,12,14,16,20,21 622:24 623:24 624:5,5 108:13 109:24 115:2 115:4,4,15 116:4 431:15 433:10 435:3,5 526:21 527:21 528:3 624:8,10,15,15,15,18 118:6 120:21 121:2 191:5,5 220:7,7 231:4 435:9,11,19 436:1,19 528:10,12 529:24 624:21,22 625:2,22 124:19,24 125:20 231:4,13,17,17 235:17 436:24 437:2,3 438:22 530:15,16 532:6,8,13 626:3,5,9,14,19 131:22 132:10 133:17 235:24 236:8,8 238:23 438:25 439:5,5,8,9,15 532:16,18,22 533:24 627:10,16,16,19,21,23 133:23 138:1,19 239:2,2,19 241:1,1,11 439:16,17,19,24 440:4 535:1,5 536:1,2,8,10 628:4,4,4,7,12,18,23 143:15 144:4 145:8,25 241:11 251:6,6 264:24 440:6,12 442:18 444:1 536:16,16,19,21,25 631:15,22,24 632:1,4 147:9 155:15 157:10 264:24 265:7,7 267:16 444:3,5,7 446:15 537:1,1,2,4,5,7,9,16 633:6,12,12,15,16,21 157:24 159:4,9 166:2 270:1,4,4 278:13,14 448:17 449:5,10,17,19 537:19,24,25 538:8,13 633:22,22,24 634:3,6 168:10 170:3,9 176:9 Myers' 226:1 449:20,24,25,25 450:1 539:7,17,20,22 540:9 634:12,17,20,21 177:12,25 212:12 450:2,2,5,7,12,13,14 540:23 541:25 542:7 635:10,12,15,17,23 227:20 228:12,12 N 450:16,25 451:6,8,8 542:11 543:10 544:2 636:1,10,16,16,19,20 229:1,15 231:5 241:1 N 2:1

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 32

NAFRA 86:18 90:18 644:18 647:15 648:6,9 298:7,11,21 299:8 288:8 297:8,13 299:18 never 24:11 161:7,7 92:24 94:8 96:1 97:6 649:22 652:4 655:4 300:5 301:2,14 302:9 302:22 303:14 314:3 281:13 283:1 295:20 98:9,19 100:7,16 660:4 302:20 303:15 306:25 315:4,10,16 333:20 303:16 312:16 436:7 102:3,12 103:24 104:8 name's 20:2 61:13 62:3 307:6,8,15 309:20,23 339:16 343:13 345:21 508:24 523:11 524:12 105:22 108:13,24 151:13 159:9 228:15 310:2,5 311:22,22 346:1,2,3 348:20 550:18 560:7 603:18 113:23 116:20 152:18 252:22 261:15 351:21 312:5 316:15,17 318:3 357:25 359:13 360:1 645:12 193:4 238:1 268:23 355:6 364:23 421:23 319:6 326:9,12 342:24 363:24 397:18 413:4 new 20:23 29:15 41:20 281:1 448:22 553:10 422:7 543:9,25 551:21 345:13 354:12 355:2 419:25 429:12 441:12 46:10,10 68:3 69:25 628:10 632:22 634:2 571:4 602:22 641:16 355:24 357:8,17,22 471:15 472:9,10 82:5,19 115:22 132:18 634:20 640:16,25 named 391:10 364:19 373:4 380:15 476:22 484:8 506:24 132:19,19,19 150:2,25 NAHB 369:25 nameplate 50:18,23 380:23 381:4 384:8 514:2 515:7 517:21 151:3,6,16 155:23 nail 483:1 324:23 392:12,13,18,24 393:1 528:21,25 549:25 158:7 164:2 182:24 name 17:13,16 44:15 names 129:11 393:6 401:7 402:6 550:16 552:19 560:15 187:11 188:14,18,19 45:15 47:2,7 48:21 naming 129:12 414:19 415:16 423:3 561:12 563:6,23 576:1 188:20 191:9 199:25 49:18 56:12 66:22 Nancy 556:18 575:3 425:19 433:5,12,25 580:1 593:19 600:23 200:15 201:21 219:21 68:25 80:9 83:13 NantEnergy 287:21 434:7,15 436:6 437:18 626:25 644:2 219:25 225:12 238:7,8 90:14 93:21 97:2 99:6 narrow 217:22 381:21 443:12 444:20 455:13 needed 56:7 58:8 83:1 242:9,24 244:14,19 101:3 102:25 104:19 narrowing 235:18 459:15 468:22 469:13 127:21 148:17 156:13 250:6 266:21,24 111:18,21 124:4 130:1 Natale 6:5 199:23,24 482:2,5,11 483:10 189:25 218:1 287:16 268:16 297:1,14 136:16 140:14 151:9 200:5,7,9 485:15 488:13 490:22 303:20 310:6 318:4 307:11,13 308:20 154:13 162:15 164:9 Nathan 9:19 293:9 433:6 514:22,25 515:16 319:18 347:21,22 309:14 310:14,25 172:4,7,8 177:19 433:8,8 434:20 522:25 528:14 530:5 363:22 455:11 479:1 314:7,15 318:1 325:21 186:18 189:7 194:7 national 21:17,24 25:23 538:24 547:9 548:24 531:3 543:19,21 325:22,22 326:12,13 201:22 202:19 216:24 28:3 30:16 44:15 549:10,17,22 550:14 550:22 553:4 609:7 326:24 327:16 330:4 217:2 227:10 229:4 45:16 82:10 105:5 550:17 551:14 552:20 needlessly 150:10 331:5 334:18 335:19 234:23 235:1 238:25 153:3,12,13 162:19 554:9,23 558:17 559:5 needs 55:20 56:2 57:13 336:2 348:16 355:17 241:10 244:5 245:20 177:21 178:13,20,24 559:8,13,18,22 560:15 59:7,19 110:9 115:6 357:20 369:25 372:18 254:21 259:24 263:21 179:5,22,24 180:2,6 563:7,21 570:8,21 126:22 128:2 155:1 376:11,13,14 396:19 265:6 268:19 270:3 184:18 189:10 196:14 571:20 577:9,20,24 175:6 190:11 258:6 408:22,24 409:8 274:8 278:10,14 196:15 198:24 201:23 579:6 585:5 590:15 262:22 264:9 267:8 414:16 415:8,21,22 294:24 299:3 306:8 202:23 205:17 208:14 597:11 600:24 602:16 276:12 280:13 313:3 416:25,25 419:13 308:24 309:2 318:22 208:22 209:6 217:10 615:5,17 625:10 318:2 337:24 384:20 420:5 425:21 427:15 322:21 323:12 327:25 292:22 293:6,20,25 629:14,24 638:6 639:6 387:6,22 388:5,11 467:5 496:10,16,20 330:15,24 333:17 316:24 333:4 334:10 641:13 652:15 429:9 469:3 471:10 498:4,11,17 499:15 334:2 340:16 344:3 335:4 353:1,16 356:15 NEC's 31:5 563:5 522:13 557:24 561:23 500:13 502:7 514:9 345:10 349:11 350:12 356:20 359:3 362:10 NECA 292:24 302:9 565:12 586:23 609:13 523:2,3,4,7,9 524:8 352:25 356:11 358:5 362:23 366:19,25 354:5 396:17 433:9 609:15 548:1 561:8 562:15 365:20 368:12 374:4 371:19 372:3 374:8 530:10 535:21 549:17 negative 49:3 51:3 65:3 584:17 585:5,8,9 374:16 376:18 379:19 375:24 394:6 410:9 559:18 570:2,2 577:24 151:23 152:4 242:4,6 590:4,17,18 591:18 380:5 382:3,8 385:21 417:5,9 431:17 432:1 577:24 300:23 310:11 354:8 593:16 594:6,13,14,16 387:2 388:17 392:4 432:7,8,15,18,24 necessarily 18:1 53:23 367:4 416:12 456:9 595:9 597:6,10,14,15 393:22 396:16 402:23 434:2 436:5 437:20 170:19 173:25 367:6 516:7 569:7 654:1,4 601:21 607:23 615:24 404:1 406:6 409:6 441:20,21 444:9 367:15 425:5 506:10 negatively 225:16 618:16 619:3,4 625:3 416:15,18 423:8 426:1 446:13 484:8 487:23 560:18 607:10 negatives 162:6 625:12,13 637:22 426:15,18 430:4 431:1 489:10,15 491:22 necessary 18:11 59:9 neglecting 406:1 638:4,8,10,12,23 431:12 433:8 435:3,6 495:4 502:16 535:12 122:4 150:4 156:13 negligible 245:3 251:14 639:8 642:2 645:10 435:22 442:15 444:3 540:2,4 557:17 560:5 285:6 301:7 303:9 251:19 647:3,24 648:2 650:14 451:23 452:8 454:1,12 562:18 563:17 564:1 310:17 316:18 327:9 neighbor's 398:1 653:13,15 654:14 455:22 460:1,18 565:11 571:21 579:23 328:13 331:13 410:5 neighborhoods 186:7 newer 50:10 213:15 461:18 462:16 468:6 606:18 615:13 649:23 524:23 548:15 578:10 neighbors' 208:25 214:16 274:24 471:24 484:19 495:2 649:25 651:3 622:2,12 625:5 631:19 neither 257:3 401:21 newly 41:19 369:23 497:24 500:3 503:4 nationally 474:11 487:21 necessity 549:21 559:22 560:5 NextEra 283:15 508:9 509:16 513:20 651:7 Ned 6:20 247:5,5 249:5 NEMA 240:2 316:25,25 NFIRS 394:6 513:23 518:5 519:8 nationwide 393:6 need 12:11 46:4 58:10 330:16,17 356:15 NFP 437:10 524:4 532:7 535:2 natural 441:3,4,5 443:4 60:16 64:5 76:12 366:20 410:10 418:7,7 NFPA 1:5 2:12 12:2,8,12 537:14 539:21,24 447:23 77:24 83:8 88:7 94:16 423:11,12 425:13 12:24 13:8,15,16,20 546:13 551:2 560:25 nature 368:25 563:3 94:18 110:12 115:8 461:11 468:9 484:23 13:23 14:2,4,8,9,9 567:2,23 570:25 near 441:1 447:24 660:4 126:24 128:9 141:13 495:19,19 503:7 542:9 15:4,19 16:7,14 17:23 579:14 585:16 586:1 nearest 12:15 13:4,5 147:21,21 152:9 587:15,16 18:4 19:14,19 20:1,15 588:6 590:24 591:10 35:23,24 154:22 155:21 156:17 Nervousness 262:7 20:17,22,25 21:5,11 591:13,25 594:20 nearly 345:5 383:4 156:20 161:17 165:11 NESC 177:25 179:11,13 21:20,24 22:18 23:7 595:3,6 597:21 599:25 NEC 21:19,21 22:2,4,5,7 166:11 167:8 171:11 179:18 180:9,10 23:17,19 24:13,15,16 600:12 604:10 608:8 22:12,19,20,22 23:4,5 184:17 185:3 186:10 193:18 194:3 195:3 25:16 26:2,20 27:21 612:8,19 613:2 617:4 179:18 180:9,10 192:17 197:18 206:14 196:19,20,25 28:14 29:9 30:9,23 620:20 625:19 626:4 202:24 204:10 207:21 207:4 228:3 237:20 network 646:10 650:17 31:21 32:2 35:8,17 626:17 631:12,25 207:22,23 293:8,21,22 250:1 252:14 254:9 651:15 655:23 656:8 36:1,12 37:10,10 635:7,16 638:16 296:13,17,23 297:2,6 257:6 258:10 274:18 656:10 41:16,18,22,25 42:7 639:12 642:17 644:9 297:10,19,22,23 298:3 274:22 284:19 286:14 neutral 247:12 42:16 43:7,7,9,25 44:5

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 33

44:7,10 45:20,22,25 357:7 394:1 409:10 211:20 226:24 240:16 not' 613:6 217:23 218:11,24 46:3,3,4,10,11,13,17 412:9 413:25 414:1,24 253:11,25 263:9 notable 22:7 123:16 221:7 223:3 224:21 46:22 47:18 49:21 431:18,19,22 432:5,16 272:18 273:8 291:16 491:4 235:22 236:13 237:23 51:20,23,24 58:13,17 433:19 434:2,12,15,16 292:5 304:15 321:1,14 notably 22:2 244:16,19 245:18 59:2 60:1,1 61:5,16 434:17,23,23 435:18 339:2 352:15 361:9,25 note 42:16,20 46:17 55:5 246:16,25 247:3 64:1 65:18 66:3,10,12 436:23 437:9,11,13 370:18 371:10 378:16 55:24 65:1 89:12 249:10 251:4 252:20 67:11,12,12 68:2,10 438:4,6,12 453:12 379:7 399:15 400:4 110:1 113:24 222:16 261:14 270:21 272:4 68:11,12,15,17,21 480:14,17,18,22,24,25 411:16 420:24 421:12 234:7 307:13 318:6,13 273:17 274:17 275:8 69:7,9,13,16,24 74:17 521:2,4,17,19 527:9 424:9 428:6 430:16 325:21 326:6,8,14,15 275:17,19,22,25 74:23 79:6 84:22 85:9 532:12 537:2,4,6 439:10 449:20 450:8 326:24 331:5 355:22 280:23 281:21 290:19 85:9,11,23 86:2,4 87:4 541:14 548:4 550:20 453:4 457:21 464:9 390:22 432:2 434:21 290:25 299:1,22 87:9,9,11,15,17 88:14 551:25 552:14 553:1 475:14 476:2 479:21 440:19 442:3 444:23 301:10 302:6 311:2,3 89:7,9,14 90:5,11 94:3 553:15 559:7 563:23 493:14 501:7 503:23 444:23 531:24 543:2 313:6 314:23 316:21 106:19 107:12,12,13 567:7 569:16 573:19 504:10 511:9 520:6 543:12 544:3 548:7 320:15 321:23 323:19 107:23 108:5,8,11 574:9,11 576:18 579:9 526:4,17 536:22 561:5 604:20 641:23 329:1,13 330:13,21,23 109:5,7,7 110:19 586:6 604:22 619:7,13 545:10,25 555:14 642:6,13 645:4 333:21 336:13 345:7 114:15,22 116:5 118:5 629:12 630:10 642:22 556:4 566:4,18 572:19 noted 46:11 253:1 318:5 346:21 347:24 351:1 119:8 120:2,2,4,15,20 649:13 659:20 660:13 573:7 583:12,25 370:9 487:14 507:24 358:3,19 360:19 361:1 120:22,25 122:23 NFPA's 13:19 14:5 16:6 589:11 593:5 596:8 508:4 516:13 531:1,20 366:17,23 368:11 123:14,16,23 128:14 21:2 36:10 166:25 599:17 611:23 624:11 626:13 636:10 374:14 375:10,23 132:9,22,22,24 133:10 247:12,20 393:4 627:24 633:17 636:21 notes 46:21 329:6 525:7 376:16 377:21 379:18 133:15,18 135:16 569:10 640:5 643:15 657:5 581:5 382:7,16 383:15 136:9,11 140:1 142:1 NFSA 51:8 61:14 66:23 659:7 notice 134:11 209:18 385:19 386:25 387:13 144:3,15,15,17 145:3 NHB 357:21 noise 308:1 271:16 289:23 290:18 387:21 388:15 390:18 145:9,14,17 146:12,12 NHTSA 547:16,19 Noltee 8:10 350:12,13 320:14 360:25 399:5 394:1,15,15 396:14 146:14 147:1,7,10,13 548:18,19,20 549:1 351:21,21 443:10 449:11 475:5 398:21 399:6 402:13 148:17 149:2 157:23 552:24 553:5,22,22 nomenclature 129:12 503:15 512:8 525:20 403:24 405:1 406:4 158:9,9,11,23 159:2,5 557:23 558:2 561:6 nominal 247:24 545:1 555:5 565:20 408:12 409:11,17,18 159:8,21 160:5,11,12 562:16,17 563:16 non- 199:1 303:13 572:10 607:12 410:12 411:6 416:17 160:15,21,22 161:16 564:3,6 569:19 571:23 386:13 550:15 noticed 378:7 418:3,11,22 419:17 161:17 162:7,8 163:9 NHTSA's 548:16 557:25 non-combustibility Notices 15:2 420:7 429:19 435:20 163:22,22,25 164:1,11 568:14 269:1,6 notification 54:20 436:3,14,18,20 437:6 165:4,6 167:15 168:9 nicad 190:19 217:7 non-critical 63:20 notified 66:10 227:15 439:19 444:11 445:20 169:8,8,10,21 170:1,4 218:10,13 244:24 non-debatable 291:2 228:7,21 229:10 446:18 448:19 449:6 170:7 171:1,4,21 245:9 non-GF 385:3 264:15 340:7 480:17 455:3 460:2 461:16 172:10,19,24 173:18 nice 222:8 512:17 non-mandatory 116:10 480:24 521:2,17 537:4 462:14 463:5 470:14 174:5,13 175:4 176:8 nicely 415:12 171:20 574:9 473:7 475:5 491:14 176:19,19,21 177:6,11 Nick 6:18 245:20,20 non-transportation notify 12:17 35:11 492:18 495:22 525:20 177:17 178:11,12 246:1,3 505:12,24 549:24 560:14 570:7 noting 12:10 618:3 530:7 555:6 561:1 179:8,10 180:6,16 nickel 182:25 213:10,18 noncombustible 109:5 629:22 565:21 572:11 583:3 182:14 183:8,10,11 213:25 214:7,9,19 109:12,19,23 110:2,3 NRECA 202:1 593:16,18 601:5,9 184:12,15,17 191:9,16 215:21 225:5 252:10 110:4,6,7,8 111:6,13 NRTL 330:1 335:17 613:16 622:15 635:5 192:9,22,22 193:11,12 262:11 275:3,23 112:1,9,18 113:13,15 568:13 636:2 642:13 654:25 193:14 194:18 195:2,3 286:10 288:14,22 113:19,20,25 114:2,8 NUCA 441:22 numbering 538:25 195:6 198:10 202:22 night 208:17 417:25 114:11,17 115:9 nuclear 169:2,16 174:1 numbers 49:12 136:22 202:24 205:19 213:14 426:25 514:8 134:12 135:1,15 184:15 434:22 466:4 213:23 215:12,13,16 nine 277:1 381:16 137:19 486:6,23 488:6 nuisance 384:17,18,24 numerical 129:20 215:16 216:2 218:12 398:15 470:2 483:16 489:8 490:16 385:2,11 389:18,24 numerous 21:25 22:17 218:14 223:17 227:15 505:21 noncombustible.' 394:20 397:11,12,21 89:17 245:24 246:4 227:16 228:7,9,21,22 NITMAM 149:25 150:9 116:24 number 19:12 24:8 319:7 384:8 540:12 229:10,11 230:5 150:15 153:5 266:2 nonhazardous 447:9 37:24 40:15 44:13 231:19 232:12 233:23 605:2 642:5 448:1,2 47:4 48:19 49:17 51:6 O 241:21 242:23 244:2 NITMAMs 187:24 nonmetallic 482:3,8 53:10 56:14 57:15 o'clock 339:14,15 244:25 245:16,22 nitrogen 166:6 489:11 59:12 61:11 62:1,2 400:13 248:18 249:23 250:19 NM 482:5,12,13,17,19,21 norm 200:10 63:14 64:9 66:18 69:2 O'Connor 3:9 34:25 35:3 258:17 259:10 264:15 482:22 483:7,17 486:3 normal 185:2 237:16 79:13 80:6 81:20 35:4 38:13,15,19 39:1 264:17 265:9 266:9,25 486:8,10 488:4,19,25 256:25 261:2,3 312:2 83:18 86:7 90:16 39:9,11,17,19,23 40:4 268:3,4,4 269:5 270:7 491:5 492:10,13,22 312:4,7,9,21 316:14 92:12 93:23 94:6 43:16 44:8,13,20,22 270:7,10 273:23 274:2 NMC 247:16,19,23,24 318:13 398:11 564:4 95:15 97:4 98:7 100:4 45:1,5,11 46:6,25 274:15 276:4,19,19,20 248:2 252:11 normal' 311:25 101:25 103:21 104:25 48:17 49:16 51:5,11 277:6,17,18 278:5,19 No' 38:4 40:20 53:1 normally 135:2 105:1 106:20 108:11 51:13,15 52:13,17 279:3,6,12,17 280:1,2 62:16 63:5,6 65:11 North 294:13 295:1 111:19 113:6,21 115:3 53:16 54:25 56:10 281:3 284:2,8 287:4 70:19 72:19 84:14 546:14 547:4 554:5 116:18 126:10 135:1 57:14 59:11 61:10,25 287:23,25 291:25 92:3 95:6 97:22 99:21 Nos 108:15,18 117:9,18 142:17 154:11 155:7 62:14,19 63:2,5,13 292:13 293:1,2,3,25 101:16 103:13 106:12 211:16 353:4,10 181:1,1,2 182:13 64:8,21 65:4,21,24 294:4,7,10 303:18 117:23 125:6 132:4 361:20,20 362:13,17 189:12 192:6 193:5,13 66:3,8,24 67:3,18 309:18 310:21,25 138:8 143:22 157:16 371:5 450:19 451:1 197:6 199:22 201:7,19 68:23 70:5,11 71:8,12 340:7,9 345:15,15 168:2 176:2 210:2 452:20,25 207:2 209:19 216:18 71:14,24 72:1,7,13,24

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 34

73:2,5,11,15 74:1,4,7 Odie 9:8 407:15,15 78:22 79:2,12,12,20 136:15 140:13 151:8 126:25 131:8 134:18 74:11,13,16,21 75:18 446:19,19 448:23 79:23 80:2,4,24 81:3,6 153:7 162:14 168:16 144:1 155:18 170:19 76:16,20,22 77:6,23 452:11,11 82:14 83:11 84:7 172:3 201:2 216:23 258:3 260:4 270:14 78:1,15,18 79:2,9,12 OEM 204:3 519:5 567:4 86:15 91:17 94:24 234:22 244:4 259:23 317:1 330:17 356:16 79:17,20,23 80:2,4,20 OEM's 335:11 95:13,23 97:15 98:5 268:18 278:9 308:23 366:20 410:10 504:2 80:24 81:3,6 82:14 OEMs 546:15 556:18 98:11,24 101:5,11 327:24 341:11,23 526:8 539:7 624:15 83:11,17 84:3,7 85:2 off-site 335:15 102:9 103:2,6 105:18 343:5,10 344:2 348:4 658:8,12 86:5,11,15 87:6 88:11 offer 46:7 67:19 82:15 106:5,22,24 107:4 348:7 351:9 356:10 opposes 316:14 495:20 90:12 91:17,21 92:17 88:12 93:14 96:10 113:5 115:2 117:15 365:19 374:3 382:2 587:16 92:21 93:13,19 94:6 98:25 111:1 122:15 118:9 127:11 145:14 402:22 416:14 423:8 opposing 186:1 354:3 94:19,24 95:19,23 128:12 135:19 139:25 145:14 175:10 177:19 426:15 430:4 435:2 468:16 96:9 97:1,9,15 98:11 150:19 161:20,24 178:10 187:7 198:1,4 444:3 452:8 455:22 opposite 341:24 350:24 98:16,24 99:5,14 171:8 215:6 233:21 198:6,7 199:21 201:18 459:25 468:5 484:18 445:3 483:10 541:3 100:9,13,22 101:2,11 244:25 258:13 267:14 210:9,23 211:2 219:15 496:10 503:3 508:8 opposition 17:12 19:12 102:5,9,19,24 103:6 276:17 296:11 303:12 228:2 229:17 240:6,9 513:19 524:4 532:6 61:13 94:1 193:4 104:1,5,12,17,24 326:1 342:21 364:16 252:25 254:6,9 255:7 539:20 551:1 560:24 238:1,9 271:1 281:1 105:1,8,12,18 106:3,5 365:1 373:1 381:1 264:4,13 301:24 570:24 579:13 585:25 285:19 296:24 301:21 106:22,24 107:4 108:9 402:3 415:6 423:2 305:12 306:1 307:24 591:9 595:2 604:9 301:22 309:5 317:7 108:16,21 110:25 425:16 429:15 433:2 319:14 322:15,16,21 617:3 626:3 631:24 319:17 326:21 330:17 111:16 112:24 113:5 442:9 454:21 459:3 331:14 332:4 334:2 635:15 639:11 642:16 331:2 334:4 335:8 113:21 115:2,12,16,19 467:8 483:21 494:21 337:19,20 338:11,18 648:5 336:15 343:4 347:20 116:18 117:6,11,15 502:9 507:9 512:19 339:23 340:20,23 opened 17:9 349:14 350:9,14 118:9 522:22 530:2 538:21 342:18 350:11 351:20 openings 163:13 351:22 355:11 360:18 object 102:22 581:1,9 549:7 550:14 559:10 356:7 379:17 380:5 opens 139:19 180:3 367:3 374:10,17 375:8 objections 153:25 560:13 570:6 577:17 396:10 400:25 406:4 342:4,5 346:10,11 376:19 382:10 383:19 245:15 414:22 515:12 585:1 590:13 594:9 424:3 427:25 430:10 586:24 404:4,17 406:8 416:21 objective 123:13 597:8 602:13 615:2 454:20 468:14 472:12 operability 171:12 419:21 420:6 426:6,21 objectives 113:3 393:5 625:8 631:5 634:25 472:16 476:22 477:4 operate 60:13 184:25 433:15 435:25 437:12 622:4 638:2 478:4,8,9 503:12 188:2 410:20 571:7 442:18 446:20 451:25 objects 438:21 offered 548:24 505:20 510:15 511:3 operated 216:18 245:11 452:5,12,16 455:19 obscuration 87:2 89:4 offering 412:19 511:18 533:20 535:18 operates 344:12 456:5 459:11 461:13 obscure 331:11 office 23:13 24:19 57:7 542:4 561:15 573:15 operating 204:8 214:6 468:2,10 478:23 obstruction 49:12 279:21 358:9 394:17 582:17,19 589:1 217:8 218:3,10 311:13 484:15,24 485:6,13 343:10 Officer 2:7 3:9 4:10 5:10 601:16 613:6 614:9 311:14,15 580:2 490:9,25 491:3 492:6 obstructionists 49:7 10:3 14:16 17:3,18 622:14 623:6 628:17 626:25 495:6,15 497:21 498:2 obtain 381:20 18:8,9,17,19,22 34:25 636:4,9 639:18 644:8 operation 189:1 237:17 502:18 507:18 509:18 obtainable 122:1 35:5 41:13 118:19 658:23 261:2,3 563:4 513:2 514:1 519:9 obtaining 14:20 391:4 168:21 355:6 453:14 old 130:12 208:24 338:3 operational 37:15 523:19 554:7 562:11 obvious 115:9 275:16 Officers 16:20 338:4,4 359:22 438:5 operations 31:13 32:10 585:18 588:12,17 289:2 496:8 offices 358:10 482:15 438:5 614:20 163:10,19 164:4 591:1,16 592:8 594:22 obviously 143:3 187:18 official 62:6,9 139:11,12 older 128:22 314:5 167:16 194:23 334:21 595:7 597:23 598:21 306:11 345:20,21,23 436:23 532:12 619:13 354:14 356:23 359:24 375:18 625:21 635:9 638:19 467:3 571:24 642:22 649:13 367:11 376:2,6 515:21 operator 12:17 35:11 647:18 655:6 occupancies 26:13 27:7 officially 18:7 164:12 Oliver 4:22 151:12,13 325:5 397:25 514:17 Ops 201:25 27:8 31:7,8 32:23,24 652:1 660:12,15 Omega 431:13 435:13 opinion 24:17 93:17 optical 655:11,13 33:1,21 50:25 56:22 offline 71:3,4,5,8,10 omitted 531:17 99:3 167:7 225:16 optimistic 339:12 57:8 182:7 204:11 oh 51:24 76:16 83:17 On-Off 660:3 262:20 275:6 276:8,17 438:11 279:5 280:11 367:16 104:24 106:22 238:10 onboard 295:11,13 495:9 497:4 502:21 option 62:8 72:17,21 488:19 239:2 264:4 305:11 once 17:2 18:13,16 559:21 114:16 116:13 260:10 occupancy 25:2 48:2 311:6 323:1 333:22 96:16 104:17 148:19 opponents 17:22 113:24 260:12 314:7 406:2 486:12,16 488:14 345:20 434:19 462:20 234:15 260:20 324:6 opportunities 205:20 570:18,19 601:5,9 occupant 50:3 505:15 472:6,12 477:20 324:13 327:7 338:3 283:24 392:19 612:23 occupants 182:6 199:13 520:17 579:16 593:20 341:3 347:25 429:6 opportunity 175:12 options 72:17,20 110:1 316:19 411:2 588:2 602:19 620:1 653:25 459:6 468:1 502:23 182:9 188:1 256:15 114:16,17,19 117:5 592:16 658:9 577:20 265:15 266:1 270:15 222:12 303:13,14 Occupational 153:4,14 oh- 539:19 One' 627:20 309:10 310:23 414:20 550:15,16 560:13 occupied 112:7 190:22 Ohio 34:6,7 164:14 one-third 393:14 414:25 469:11 483:14 570:6 600:21,25 occur 261:10 300:13,17 okay 38:19,24,25 39:1 one-year 154:5 155:2 515:8 585:22 591:5 or' 115:23 300:17 350:21 360:13 39:17,18 40:3,4,4,9 ones 135:2 468:1 616:7 594:23 625:23 Orangeburg 169:5 486:20 531:21 577:6 41:5,6 45:5,11 48:17 online 71:16 oppose 150:21 168:7 order 14:7 17:4 18:21,25 occurred 55:21 193:22 49:16 51:16 52:15,17 onset 50:5 194:3 212:3 281:20 35:1 42:6 58:15 60:13 355:19 445:21 448:16 53:9,18 61:10 63:13 onstage 25:20 333:18 418:13,19,20 60:14 74:16 118:22 occurrence 207:10 63:13 64:21 65:18,24 Ooh 472:4 435:25 460:6 470:7 129:4,17 150:4 174:11 occurs 68:6 214:15 70:5,7 71:8 72:1,7,10 open 47:1 56:11 58:1 498:18 514:10 518:7 182:18 197:20 209:23 312:10 515:5 72:24 73:11,15 74:4,7 68:24 83:12 90:13 518:19 563:9 585:22 240:2,2 248:3 253:6 October 180:11 74:16 75:17,18,25 93:20 97:2 99:6 101:3 591:6,21 598:6,16 268:1 272:14 274:19 odd 505:11 506:7 76:6,15,15,20 77:20 102:25 104:18 111:17 605:13 659:6 276:23 284:20 285:7 Ode 2:13 21:13 77:23 78:1,1,7,18,18 118:14 124:3 129:25 opposed 59:10 112:11 290:25 291:11 295:6

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 35

304:25 319:23 320:22 outline 75:18 78:8 133:15 144:15 145:7 549:17 550:1,6,10,23 parentheses 481:17 361:5 370:14 378:13 outlined 180:8 213:8 146:12 147:7 158:9 559:15,18 560:20 park 540:17 385:8 386:22 399:11 415:12 487:9 159:2 169:8 170:1 561:15 562:13 563:7 parked 565:9 413:4 420:20 449:16 outlook 390:14 176:19 177:11 196:20 569:24 570:2,9,11,13 Parking 33:2 453:21 475:10 495:18 output 198:21 196:21 293:1 294:4 577:21,25 578:5,18,21 parks 540:2,15 503:18 524:24 525:25 outputs 299:16,16 479:8 604:22 607:25 579:1 585:14,17,19,21 Parkville 34:17 538:13 545:7 546:7 outs 288:13 paints 189:16 597:5 587:23 590:22,25 Parliamentary 62:5 551:4 555:10 566:1 outside 118:15 136:10 pair 646:20 591:2,4 592:12 594:18 part 12:4 20:4 42:20 572:16 574:17 581:13 136:13 140:4,7 168:18 pairs 646:21 594:21,24 595:11,12 45:20 51:9,16 61:18 583:8 605:10 610:8 190:8 233:14 258:8 Palmer 8:17 360:21,21 595:17 597:19,22,24 66:21,25 67:7,9 69:6 617:18 619:21 621:19 325:18 395:7,7 397:14 Panama 31:4 598:1,6 601:14,15,15 70:7,14 76:9 95:18,20 622:3 638:5 433:24 445:14 568:18 panel 21:23,24 22:8,10 601:18 602:17,23,25 97:11,17 98:10,12 orderly 208:21 209:2 621:7,9 645:11 646:21 22:15 25:24 28:5,6,7 603:8,11,18,25 604:7 99:10,16 102:4,6 ordinance 83:2,4,9 647:23 648:12,15 28:11 30:18,20 31:5 604:16 607:7,7,9,9,11 103:3,8,25 104:2 Oregon 107:9 654:21 656:15 69:21 70:3 293:9,9,10 607:21 608:11,20 105:20 106:7 108:14 organization 12:12 35:7 outstanding 20:25 293:10,11,11,12,12,13 609:4 610:12,23 613:1 108:17 115:10 117:8 87:5 194:10 202:1 over-enforcement 517:3 296:7,19,24 297:7,12 613:7,13,14,24,25 117:17 119:3,12 121:3 223:14 325:16 333:10 overall 221:19 384:10 298:19 299:7 300:18 615:6,10,11,20 616:19 121:6,10 124:18 125:1 334:17 515:10 552:24 442:6 301:14 302:9,13 620:4,22 621:11,16 125:20,23 128:14 organizational 17:13,16 overcurrent 298:13 303:21 307:18,23 622:5,13 625:16,20,22 131:13,24 138:20,22 organizations 149:22 300:11,25 455:15 310:8 312:5,18 313:14 625:24,25 626:10 142:17 143:11,17 150:25 156:19 178:13 468:24 578:16 614:18 316:3,25 317:17 629:6,8 631:9,13,14 149:15 153:13 178:22 203:10 367:7 441:19 overkill 262:18 326:17,20 329:5 631:16,22 632:5,24 186:12 212:13,13,16 547:18 548:3 567:4 overload 395:8 342:25 343:3,23 635:4,8,9,12,13 223:21 225:20 226:19 orifice 68:8 overlooked 302:1 345:14,14 353:17,18 638:14 641:3,14 647:9 229:23 230:9 236:25 original 48:7,8 49:9,23 overlooks 234:4 354:24 355:3,9 356:3 647:13 652:25 653:20 241:2,5 253:21 269:17 50:6 51:22 81:1 overly 81:9 171:24 262:9 359:20 364:20,25 655:5,22,24 656:5 294:17,19 299:7,9 130:13 151:24 156:22 279:3 283:5 299:15 365:7,15,24 366:22 panel's 23:2 296:11 304:6 309:8 312:12,21 203:8 213:14 312:24 558:10 368:19,21 373:5,10,11 297:16 302:14 326:1 318:3 323:2,5 325:2,5 323:23 324:11,12 overnight 58:25 373:23 375:12 376:21 342:21 343:22 356:1 328:12 330:18 337:5 325:1 327:1,6,10,12 overprotection 467:3 381:5,10,12 382:18 364:16 365:1,12 373:1 337:17 338:22 340:19 327:15,17 328:5,9 overreaching 344:8 383:11 390:9,23 391:5 381:1,24 395:7 402:3 340:24 341:6 351:19 336:1 344:23 409:3 403:4 392:11 393:17 394:1 402:13 415:6 416:5 352:10 353:3,8 356:17 496:21 505:13 515:20 oversight 499:20 557:16 402:7,11,14 404:21,21 423:2 425:16 429:15 361:18 362:11,15 515:22 518:18 531:16 575:22 404:24 406:7 407:1,4 433:2 442:9 454:21 365:6 366:1 371:3 538:3,4 617:13 637:24 overtook 262:7 410:17 414:15 415:23 459:3 467:9 483:21 379:22,25 388:8 650:12 overwhelming 234:10 416:8 418:19 422:12 490:19 494:21 502:9 394:17 399:24 400:22 originally 82:19 94:10 269:12 327:20 391:15 422:12,13,14,20 507:9 512:19 522:22 401:1 407:21 411:6,11 154:16 199:20 367:10 391:24 603:24 423:12 426:3,4 429:19 530:2 538:21 549:7 412:6,13 419:7 429:7 380:12 448:12 465:5 overwhelmingly 298:4 429:23 433:6,9,13 559:10 569:22 577:17 439:22,25 440:15 originator 431:2 390:23 440:12,13 442:13,17 585:1 590:13 594:9 444:15 450:3 454:4,6 origins 318:12 owned 181:15 194:11 442:18,19,23,25 443:1 597:8 602:13 615:2 456:6,7 457:10,16 Orleans 396:19 199:14 209:3 443:2,3,14,16,17,17 625:8 631:5 634:25 458:6,10,19 461:13 Osborne 7:22 317:5,5 owner 47:14,16,24 48:6 443:19,22,23,25 638:2,24 641:10 463:23 464:4 465:11 335:7,7 49:1,14 50:13,24 51:2 446:21,23 451:16,20 panels 22:1,17,22 28:4 465:14 468:11 473:13 OSHA 329:18 330:7 58:21 116:12 173:19 451:24,25 452:1,13 30:17 293:23 294:2 474:25 475:23 476:15 other's 287:5 325:5,7,8,14 454:25 455:1,2,7,8 307:3,8 317:13,21 476:18 479:10,16 other.' 238:12 owner's 580:13 456:2,3,10 459:7,8,12 393:15 415:10,11,20 492:24 496:14 502:5 out-code 205:10 owners 48:13 60:20 463:13 467:13,14,18 470:15 523:6 601:13 507:24 522:10,13 outage 387:15 82:10 89:23 267:25 467:21,22,23 468:18 621:13 627:5 649:24 524:24,25 527:4,13 outcome 67:23 122:25 648:25 468:18 469:15,16 paper 180:8,9,12 528:1,4 536:11,17 390:4 622:9 ownership 50:3 181:21 470:15,16,17 471:1,19 papers 48:8 107:19 537:17,20 538:2 outcomes 123:5 131:20 owns 181:20 474:11 478:12,17,18 par 136:5 542:11 545:20 546:18 152:5,13 oxide 252:11 478:22,22 483:25,25 paragraph 68:2,5 304:25 546:22 555:23 556:20 outdoor 182:1,2 372:7 oxygen 257:22 484:4,14 485:13 325:3 524:9 536:3 561:9 564:25 565:11 374:11 406:15 538:9 490:21 494:25 495:5 546:6 574:16 607:19 568:19 596:19,21 538:14,19 543:20 P 502:13,18 506:8 parallel 618:6 599:5,12 604:2 612:11 648:16 P 2:1,1 507:13,16,24 512:22 paralysis 448:5 612:14 615:14 623:12 outer 91:4 355:20 p.m 411:25 512:25 513:3,9,12 parameter 586:22 623:25 624:6 642:10 442:22 pace 5:22 58:20 189:6,7 514:7,7 515:11 516:18 parameters 438:11 644:13 651:9 656:19 outlet 295:13 548:11 235:1,2 284:12 289:13 516:23 517:7 518:25 paramount 171:17 656:25 658:3 558:14 565:4 289:14,20 620:20,21 519:2,3,14 523:9,14 194:16 partially 148:22 339:15 outlets 295:12,17,19 Pace's 623:8 523:17,20,23 524:21 paraphrase 60:2 participant 13:21 301:25 372:7,8 374:11 package 502:6 528:13 529:12 530:6 paraphrasing 60:12 participants 13:23 20:25 390:9 391:25 548:8,10 packaging 50:3 530:21,24 531:1,15,20 pardon 161:21 250:17 participate 20:19 205:19 558:13,19 561:7,8 page 41:7 43:7 44:5 85:9 532:23 534:3,6 539:3 paren 531:25 578:14,16 participates 34:20 565:1 575:16 577:2,11 86:2 107:12 108:5 539:15 540:3,13 578:19,24 participating 17:11 580:7 120:2,20 132:22 541:19 543:22 549:14 parens 55:3,5,13 22:10,19 271:17

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 36 participation 19:16 Paul 5:21 9:13,23 10:21 perform 164:4 190:21 Peterkin 3:18 53:12,12 pin 494:16 497:1,9,18 21:22 23:5 271:21 186:18,19 187:7 389:21 53:21 170:8,8,18 499:2 500:9,11 502:4 660:14 204:14,14,17 229:4,4 performance 54:3 55:7 petitioners 558:25 541:7 542:3 particular 86:25 111:23 254:21,22 255:7,9,14 55:11 56:18,24,24 Petroleum 158:5,18,23 pinhole 436:12 112:9 113:3 128:17 255:16,18,20,22,22,25 60:4,8,9 68:7 69:12,19 159:23 pipe 409:18 441:10 136:11 164:6 189:23 256:3,5 257:25 263:20 286:9 488:24 489:2 phase 232:14 266:2 pipeline 161:12 221:19 234:1 245:17 263:21 264:2,5,8 532:24,25 534:13 380:9 403:12,12 pipelines 441:9 318:10 354:4 358:7 419:18,18 439:21,21 performance' 60:6 408:20,20,21 piping 27:18 160:8,14,19 392:1 422:9,22 425:22 440:5,5 450:18,18,22 performed 55:20 167:16 phase-in 151:18 161:12 163:1,3 165:1 517:4 571:10,14 623:1 450:24 451:7,7 509:16 286:12 639:4 Phil 10:10 471:24,25 165:5,16 166:3 431:21 particularly 131:17 509:16 510:5 performing 171:16 472:4,8,12,14,16 432:4,17,24 434:4,5 137:16 221:8 281:7 pause 582:7 183:17 327:8 569:1 543:8,9 placarding 616:16 389:12 468:20 645:18 pay 277:14 308:2 623:1 performs 63:18 586:20 PHILIPS 433:8 place 24:5 45:24 48:5 Particulate 108:1 PC 81:1 257:8 461:14 period 25:15 68:19 93:6 Phillips 9:19 293:9 433:6 51:20 81:14 181:14 parties 267:5 268:2 531:9 575:4 645:5 149:18,21 150:1,24 433:9 434:20 214:17 286:13 287:6 373:22 peak 126:13,15,16 151:18,24 152:3 154:5 phone 12:17 35:11 580:9 315:8 386:21 391:9 Partners 28:21 180:10 127:19,20 128:6 155:2 156:14 242:11 650:13,16 458:24 459:20 467:4 392:5 PEARL 305:15 306:10 391:23 540:21 phonetic 3:15,21 4:8,21 469:20 482:1,4 483:4 partnerships 195:21 322:2 520:20 521:12 periodic 153:18 4:24 5:1,2,19,22 6:4 517:20 523:22 524:13 parts 81:13 149:18 522:2 584:8 589:19 periods 219:19 6:10,16,21,23 7:10,23 552:25 603:21 638:9 191:15 202:10 276:9 593:15 596:18 624:21 perjury 661:11 8:8,10,16,17,22,23 9:4 644:25 648:13 277:25 314:6 373:22 Pearson 407:15 446:19 permanently 87:22,23 9:5,7,8,13,14,22 10:1 placed 110:1 186:7 446:1 495:12 500:11 446:22 452:11 328:15 10:7,9,10,16,22 11:4 326:13 500:11 502:25 515:14 pedestal 538:5 permission 137:3 11:10,11,16,20 14:9 places 367:14 409:18 515:17,19,19,22 PEL 237:16 permissive 444:13 616:2 48:20 59:13 111:21 414:19 422:16 496:19 518:13 522:16 524:22 PELs 260:17 permit 55:17 482:5 122:24,24 147:15 placing 52:4 214:9,19 525:6 541:5 601:11 penalizing 376:11 486:3 153:3 155:7,12 185:25 plain 363:11,12,14 506:9 parts' 515:16,24 517:2 penalty 201:10 661:11 permits 206:15 207:4 189:6 197:8 209:12 plainest 507:6 parts.' 444:18 pending 431:23 498:13 499:5 221:21 251:25 252:22 plainly 517:24 party 300:7 327:7 329:23 penetrations 441:2 permitted 14:24 405:15 259:15 261:18 262:13 plan 165:11,12,13,15,24 330:4 661:9 446:5,9 483:1 444:12 460:13 469:1 297:3 299:24 311:5 165:25,25 pass 109:11 114:7,12 Pennsylvania 33:11 85:6 473:3 483:7 485:1 318:22 328:4 330:2 planning 29:2 289:21 134:23 137:9,10,13,14 people 61:22 63:8 81:20 486:24 487:6 489:24 335:17 347:18 350:12 383:7 407:8 411:25 137:14 408:9 610:12 143:1,4 164:21 165:18 492:10,11,14,23 512:7 359:18 360:21 382:8,9 plans 183:16 184:16 pass/fail 67:13 109:20 165:25 166:5,12 186:9 529:8,20 601:4,4,7 383:17 392:4,5 405:3 plant 181:9 182:1 186:8 114:20 135:10,11,12 189:16 192:6 193:13 permitting 488:19 407:15 419:18,20 190:3 216:3 645:11 passage 122:5 443:5 201:20 202:4 203:11 584:23 420:8 425:8 437:7 647:23 648:12,15 447:9 203:14,20,23 209:19 Perry 6:14 218:7,7 444:6 460:18,19 656:15 passageway 89:22 223:15,21,22 236:19 person 13:7 14:17 35:25 461:18 473:10 492:5 plants 34:10 161:11 passageways 89:18 251:10 269:21 271:17 253:1 277:2 308:2 495:3 502:16 505:12 163:4 167:16 174:1 passed 15:15,23 36:20 271:23 272:1 282:1,15 324:21 334:16 343:9 506:18 509:16 525:17 183:1 184:15 186:6 38:23 41:4 78:6 84:21 290:19,25 303:7 308:4 347:5 359:7 370:9 541:1 564:10 608:8 plated 462:7 92:10 95:12 98:4 316:9 319:25 320:15 377:6 505:8,10 510:6 635:25 648:9 649:22 plates 482:25 100:2 101:23 103:19 358:12 361:1 363:8 621:14 653:24 platform 287:6 106:18 109:15 157:22 365:13 369:21,22 personal 87:16 96:14 phosphate 252:10 283:3 play 201:11 309:16 168:8 187:25 211:8,13 376:25 378:8 382:5 148:10,18 150:2 phrase 297:1,14 299:9 366:13 212:4 241:24 272:25 394:19 397:18 399:6 153:12 369:17 387:16 481:17 630:13 631:17 playing 587:8 284:3 291:22 321:8 408:23 410:24,25 388:3 617:17 653:13 647:21 plead 620:17 361:16 378:25 381:14 412:19,25 413:5 personally 283:19 605:9 phraseology 489:25 please 12:9,13,20 13:3,9 424:16 449:25 464:13 420:14 449:12 473:23 personnel 163:18,23 physical 112:13 148:12 14:8 17:12 18:13 475:19 537:1 555:20 474:2 475:6 490:14 175:19 186:15 190:4 482:25 483:3 19:18 21:2,13 23:8,14 572:25 583:18 612:4 491:10,14 508:21 368:16 408:7,8 613:17 physically 16:16 25:6,20 26:5,23 27:24 618:4 621:11 624:16 509:8 525:21 527:22 persons 89:22 179:6 PI 415:14 530:23 28:17 29:12 31:1 35:8 633:22 637:2 643:21 545:2 552:19 555:6 297:25 298:23 508:4,5 pick 207:24 400:15 35:14,22 36:2 38:6 passenger 89:15,16 562:15,19 565:21 532:3 634:9 40:22 42:20 44:13,23 119:22 120:10,16 572:11 581:6 583:3,5 perspective 24:21 157:5 picked 188:9 45:13,14 47:2,5 49:12 214:16 587:8 620:5 621:15 166:20,25 picking 498:9 499:12 53:1,11,19 56:12,14 passengers 89:18 651:12 652:21 pertaining 216:6 Pico 221:24 65:11 68:25 69:2 passes 19:4 55:6 56:1 people's 372:13 pertains 562:13 picture 348:7 392:14 70:19 74:23,24 75:12 137:11,12,13 195:6 Peoria 21:13 pervasive 50:11 pictures 185:19 346:7 76:1 78:11,19,20 80:7 199:5 481:19 546:4 percentage 50:10 57:10 pet 360:6 piece 116:1 324:6,13 81:6 83:13 84:15 86:7 patented 518:11 525:6 136:5 463:18 Peter 10:4 33:9,11 454:1 338:2 417:8 429:8,10 86:16 87:7 90:14 path 366:5 375:5,6 577:6 perfect 235:10 257:9 454:2,12,12 456:16,16 458:20 463:19 518:24 91:14 92:3,13,22 609:10 281:4,5,8,13 282:20 458:4,4,14,14 464:17 pieces 81:13 192:25 93:12,20,23 94:6 95:6 patience 40:5 41:5 71:24 287:24,25 289:9 290:7 465:9,9,19,19 476:13 333:4 597:2 95:15,23 97:4,22 98:7 72:2,11 314:13 350:18 479:7 476:13,25 477:4,6,12 piggyback 398:4 98:17 99:8,21 100:5 patient 38:15 579:5,6 615:19 477:17,19 478:4,8 pigs 372:16 100:14 101:17 102:17 pattern 82:3 455:12 perfectly 142:4 463:16 480:3,9,9,12 piled 48:3 103:13,22 104:6 106:1

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 37

106:12 108:11,21 413:2 415:3 416:15 634:16,25 635:5,15,18 politicians 357:14 364:8 potential 60:3 171:17 110:23 111:20 113:21 419:16 420:21,24 636:21 637:5,13 638:2 politicized 357:11 393:3 251:2 295:10 324:19 115:3 116:18 117:23 421:12,22 422:5 423:8 638:15 639:11 640:5 Poly 441:20 330:2 372:12 436:10 118:25 119:17,17 424:9,18 425:1 426:15 640:14,17,22 641:10 poor 315:14 441:2 449:2 483:3 120:25 121:13 124:3,6 428:6,16 429:1,20 642:16,19 643:16,25 port 132:18 302:5 516:6 529:14 568:25 125:6,17 126:2,3 430:4,16 431:10 435:3 644:16 647:14 648:5,8 portable 32:11 192:15 646:17 129:25 130:3 132:4 435:5 439:10 440:3 649:7,10,21 651:21,24 298:5,10 303:1 potentially 127:15 133:21 134:5 136:15 444:3,5 446:16 448:20 652:5,16 655:3 656:2 Porter 9:20 435:6,6,10 130:18 164:3 184:17 136:18 138:8,16,25 449:5,7,17,20 450:8 657:5 658:4,9 659:7 portfolio 24:13 186:4 216:16 217:16 139:2 140:13 142:13 450:17 451:5,21 452:8 pleased 25:17 portion 60:12 232:16,18 246:9 404:6 142:18 143:22 147:14 452:10 453:4,25 pleases 355:6 275:10 395:3 426:12 potentials 466:1 151:8,11 152:16,24 454:10 455:4,22,24 pleasure 20:3,24 85:22 portions 353:4,9 356:18 pounds 395:17,17 153:2 155:10 157:16 456:25 457:21 458:3 87:19 88:14,15,15,16 361:19 362:12,16 397:22 159:8,15 162:14,17 458:12 459:3,25 460:3 88:22 89:1,14,19 363:6,8 371:5 512:12 power 28:7 87:21 174:1 166:18 168:2 170:7,16 460:15,17 461:9,17 96:13,13,15 256:9 546:19,23 555:24 181:9,25 182:20 183:1 172:3,6 173:6,9 174:9 462:15 463:6 464:9,16 355:9 556:23 566:13 600:4,7 185:17 186:6,8 189:1 175:6 176:2 177:18 465:8,17 468:5,5,8,14 plenum 628:22 603:14 611:11,19 190:3 198:20 202:3 178:7 180:19 184:6 470:7,9 471:23 472:11 plenums 628:25 629:7 Portland 107:9 213:11 214:2,5 216:4 185:24 186:17 189:3,5 473:8 475:11,14 476:3 629:10,14,23 pose 246:10,22 316:8 219:14,14 225:7 193:2 194:3,6,23 476:12,24 478:6,19 plug 192:13 502:3 410:24,25 248:15 259:5 280:4 195:8 197:7,24 198:7 479:21 480:2,7 481:22 538:15 541:8 544:13 posed 232:6 282:6 284:24 285:1 199:22 202:17 204:13 483:19,21 484:1,18,21 565:3 poses 474:1 508:1 295:11,12,13,17,22 205:25 208:3 209:11 485:3,22,25 488:6,9 plugged 192:12 359:11 position 17:17,24,25 296:4 297:4 298:6,20 209:24 210:2 211:20 489:5 492:4 493:14,21 564:21 18:3 45:13 46:8 55:1 299:15,18 301:25 212:7,19 216:24 217:1 494:7 495:23 497:7,23 plugging 560:17 67:19 82:15 88:12 302:2,4,23,25 303:14 218:6,17 220:6 221:18 498:21 499:8 501:7,15 plumber 164:19 93:14 96:10 98:25 303:25 304:1 331:14 226:24 227:9,23 501:24 502:14 503:4,6 plumbing 355:15 100:23 104:13 111:1 358:1 387:15 405:12 228:14 230:14,19,23 503:8,19,23 504:10,23 pocket 226:3 115:24 122:15,17 405:12,15,19 498:14 231:3,11,15 234:7,22 507:14 508:8,11 podium 390:5 128:12 135:19,21 541:13 548:8,10,11 238:19 240:16,25 509:15 511:10 512:1 POE 653:8 139:25 150:19,21 549:24 550:12,16 241:8 244:4 252:24 512:23 513:19,22 point 49:2 52:1 55:21 156:7 161:20,25 162:2 553:20,25 554:8,12,14 253:7,11,25 255:4 514:14 516:8,10,21 59:8 64:13 73:16 91:7 162:12 171:8 215:6 554:22 557:10 558:12 259:23 260:1 263:9,19 518:4 520:6,15,18 114:1 122:2 129:23 233:21 236:7 255:21 559:24 560:14 564:22 264:23 265:4 268:18 521:10,25 522:7 131:16 163:11 172:20 258:13 267:14 296:11 564:23,25 570:7,16,17 268:21 269:22,25 523:15 524:4,6,18 174:11 179:7,9 184:4 297:21 326:1 342:21 575:16 578:4 580:11 270:22 272:5,7,15,19 525:16 526:1,4,17 193:5 194:24 197:2,20 364:16 373:1 381:1 580:12 600:17 608:9 273:8,18 274:5 278:9 527:24 528:9 530:2,7 203:13 204:15,17 387:18 393:8 402:3 614:16 618:20,22 278:12 281:18 283:14 532:6,9,20 533:21 240:1,2 256:20 283:4 412:23 415:6 418:16 620:2 647:23 650:12 285:17 287:19 289:12 534:9 536:22 537:23 287:15 290:24 308:17 423:2 425:16 429:15 650:14,15,17,17,25 290:12 291:12,16 539:4,21,23 541:22 313:3 317:11 327:12 433:2 442:9 454:21 652:11 653:14,15 292:5 293:13 294:11 542:8,15 543:7 544:23 333:1 339:18 356:22 459:3 467:9 478:3 655:10,15,18,21,22 294:22 301:11 302:17 545:7,10,25 546:12 356:24 360:8 366:12 483:21 494:21 502:9 656:9,11 304:2,15 306:7 308:23 547:1 549:7,15 550:24 368:5 387:19 388:3 506:23 507:9 512:19 powered 655:8,9 656:8 309:1 311:3 313:7 551:1,4 553:8 554:1,3 390:16 398:13 411:23 513:3 522:22 530:2 powerful 436:8 314:24 315:24 316:22 555:1,11,14 556:4 427:18 447:5 474:6 538:21 541:3 549:7 powering 564:24 580:6 317:4 318:21 320:3,23 557:6 559:10,16 487:24 498:4 505:24 559:10 568:5 569:22 580:17 645:19 646:7 321:1,3,14,24 323:11 560:21,24 561:2 562:8 535:13,14 536:6 577:17 585:1 590:13 646:22 654:19 655:17 327:24 328:2 329:2 566:1,4,18 567:1,21 554:15 557:2 581:2 594:9 597:8 602:13 655:23,25 330:14 333:21 336:13 569:22 570:21,24 610:21 616:18 620:10 609:23 610:3 615:2 practicably 154:9 338:13 339:2,17,25 571:2 572:6,16,19 620:12 654:11,19 625:8 626:19 631:5 practical 122:25 123:15 340:15,25 344:2,5 573:7 574:1,25 575:10 655:25 634:25 638:2 641:10 179:6 275:24 297:24 345:8 346:22 352:15 577:17,22 579:10,13 pointed 162:23 199:3 positions 381:22 298:23 346:15 351:15 352:24 353:14 354:21 579:16 583:9,12,25 218:20 318:10 366:7 positive 22:7 49:2 478:2 513:6,11 646:19 356:10 357:12 358:4 584:14 585:15,25 495:11 515:13 563:2 538:13 647:2 practice 198:12 357:2 358:19 359:17 360:20 587:14,20 588:5,21 580:4 654:13 possess 488:17 442:6 487:19 648:15 361:6,10,25 362:8,21 589:11 590:1 591:9,12 pointing 98:21 possibilities 143:5 practices 34:9 178:23 364:21 365:20,22 591:24 593:5,13 594:1 pointless 328:17 257:14 256:16,18 487:21 367:18 370:15,18 595:2,5,12 596:9,16 points 51:9 182:12 198:9 possibility 222:23 517:3 645:3 371:10,18 372:1 374:3 596:24 597:20 598:19 220:14 274:14,15 621:8 pragmatic 568:16 374:6 377:20,25 599:1,17,24 600:10 280:14 287:22 313:12 possible 23:4 49:12 pre 180:2 378:13,16 379:7 380:3 604:9,12 606:15 607:1 359:21 418:14 438:16 152:23 154:9 156:18 precedent 205:3 646:11 382:2 385:20 387:1 609:17 611:24 612:7 525:1 542:19 653:2 290:7 314:16 464:19 646:15 388:16 392:3 393:21 612:17 615:8 617:3,6 poke-through' 509:8 516:25 531:13 predating 354:14 396:14 398:21 399:12 619:10 622:15,22 pole 401:20,22 650:22 possibly 199:15 257:12 predominantly 163:3 399:15 400:4,18 401:5 624:11,19 625:1 626:3 police 415:21 283:21 311:24 335:13 preemption 548:21 402:22 405:2 406:5 626:6,16 627:24 628:8 policing 523:6,10 335:14 363:12 466:7 557:22 407:10 410:7,14 628:17 631:10,24 policy 43:13 293:7 336:1 posted 271:22 437:21 preemptive 557:16 411:16 412:1,3,23,23 632:2,20 633:4,17,25 357:7 604:22 575:24

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 38 preface 17:12 18:22 34:25 35:5 226:8 277:24 286:19 439:18 440:4 449:13 459:22 460:23,25 prefer 360:10 41:12 118:19 168:21 313:18 315:9 332:10 450:15 451:6 453:23 461:4,22 518:16,18 preferred 438:16 355:6 453:14 332:22 461:3 505:19 454:11 458:1,13 519:6 525:1,3,5,7,7,13 premature 148:8 514:19 press 63:9,9 475:14 522:20 553:12,16 464:14 465:6,18 475:7 533:18 551:16 598:14 premise 61:5 315:20 660:3,7 603:9 477:10 478:7 481:6,22 598:15 639:5 564:18 598:10 620:13 pressed 62:7 problem 56:17,19 57:20 493:19 494:7 501:13 production 488:12 650:12,14 652:14 pressure 57:4 64:3 59:18 75:8 135:25 501:25 504:15,24 600:17 premises 32:13 33:17 160:10 161:16 164:22 187:11 189:15 215:2 511:15 512:2 520:12 products 105:23 126:24 248:7 295:7,14,15,20 164:25 165:5 167:8,18 250:25 262:8 281:16 521:8,23 522:8 525:22 269:2 280:8 300:24 297:4 302:3,4 547:10 401:16 586:21 329:25 330:7 331:17 527:20 528:10 537:10 301:8 309:22 310:2,3 568:13 600:21,22,24 pressures 160:11 163:2 344:9 348:16 349:1,6 537:24 545:3 546:10 319:1,2,2,10 335:24 601:1,1 613:9,11 pretend 658:24 350:20 358:12 359:14 547:2 555:7 556:9 336:17 382:12,14 614:7 645:17 652:12 pretty 81:8 161:5 425:6 367:12 373:14 376:6 557:6 565:22 566:24 397:11 398:10 418:17 655:8,9,19 656:10,12 479:5 490:17 538:1 377:7,14,14 382:24 567:22 572:12 573:13 431:14 513:13 518:10 preparation 22:13,15 602:20 383:3 384:19 388:2 573:24 574:24 575:11 522:15 524:1 558:4 prepare 151:3 prevalence 482:17 398:3,3 419:22 437:18 584:6,15 589:17 590:2 professional 147:16 Preparedness 29:1 prevent 114:23 124:14 470:13 505:5,7 512:4 593:11 594:2 596:14 322:1 325:10 400:20 preparing 22:19 391:13 161:15 180:7,15 530:24 561:23 608:15 596:25 599:22 600:11 424:20 428:18 493:23 preposterous 463:13 238:18 276:6 343:5 609:24 631:2 645:22 612:5,18 624:17 625:2 501:17 505:10 506:1 Prescient 164:13 442:22 443:6 447:9 problematic 393:18 628:6,18 633:23 506:14 511:19 520:21 prescriptive 189:19 562:22 653:20 515:21 634:17 637:3,14 520:22 235:7,8 preventable 445:20 problems 39:12 192:17 640:12,23 644:5,17 professionals 369:7 presence 14:18 48:3 446:16 448:14 239:8 278:24 281:20 proceeding 383:13 377:24 392:24 393:15 323:23 438:9 443:4 prevented 123:11 348:25 372:19 376:5 480:1 program 34:7 123:6 558:1 618:19 preventing 123:20 390:7 420:6 444:23 proceedings 15:8 661:5 325:6 present 16:16 17:6,24 prevention 27:13 107:24 617:21 process 13:17,21,24 programs 201:9 335:23 25:17,24 26:10,11,13 250:17 251:16 395:1 procedural 232:10 14:3 16:6 18:5 20:18 441:9,11 26:14 27:3,3,4,9,17 prevents 122:4 242:21 617:10 20:18 21:1 22:8,13,20 progress 79:15 153:18 28:4,6,7,8,9,11,23,25 preview 37:17 procedure 62:5 74:19 24:17 26:3,21 27:22 339:10 29:18,20,24 30:1,4,19 previous 64:16 69:24 656:14 28:15 29:10 30:10,24 progresses 237:1 30:21 31:6,11 32:8,11 102:17 140:5 197:15 procedures 149:10 31:22 36:11 42:24 519:16 32:12,14,16,22,23,24 281:3 315:16 355:24 153:21,24 154:21 72:8 78:3 81:16 82:4 progression 327:21 32:25 33:1,3,5,7,8,13 375:20 390:1 392:7 155:22,25 161:14 112:2 113:14 115:7 prohibit 403:6,22 404:16 33:16,18,21,21,23,25 404:9 433:22 451:11 162:10 163:8,9 167:15 149:24 150:12 152:1 407:2 419:8 34:2,4,9,10,11,15 35:5 462:25 463:1 512:12 487:12 518:11,15,17 153:6,17 155:14,20 prohibited 13:14 36:7 43:3,16 50:18,21 85:4 547:13 563:15 590:4 547:22 548:6 552:24 187:2,4 221:19 249:17 496:20 85:13 94:13 107:7,16 617:9 629:18 635:12 598:13 249:22 264:11 267:4 prohibiting 403:3 414:17 119:23 120:6 132:17 previously 123:15 proceed 17:5 35:1 44:9 267:10 271:17,22 419:10 133:2 144:9,19 146:7 128:18 129:3 140:5 53:9,19 66:16,17 67:4 277:6,7 278:20 280:12 prohibition 403:8 409:6 146:16 158:5,14 169:3 213:16 224:9 363:16 71:16 74:19 75:19 286:11 296:17 307:4 419:6 169:13 176:14,24 431:18 442:2 462:5 76:2 79:5 80:4 81:7 308:16 310:21,25 prohibitive 314:8 616:11 216:19 226:10 276:8 469:23 512:11 571:21 86:6,16 92:11,22 311:6,7,10 313:14,16 prohibits 403:16,16 292:22 293:16 295:14 635:21 95:13,24 98:5,17 313:18 319:20 327:19 project 21:10,18 23:16 354:18 440:20 591:5 primarily 13:16 112:1 100:3,14 101:24 350:6 357:9,14 391:11 153:19,20 184:8 203:4 presentation 17:1,7 142:6 552:1 586:9 102:10 103:20 104:6 413:3 415:1,2 417:20 382:22 383:1 442:25 443:15 primary 24:7 68:1 165:3 108:10,22 121:14 417:23,23,24 419:15 project's 348:13 presentations 19:1 194:22,25 202:12 125:15 126:2 133:20 427:17 462:4 517:16 projects 200:24 207:3 550:4 203:25 253:17 299:9 134:5 138:14 139:1 517:17 518:12 525:2 prominence 318:18 presented 17:15 21:8,19 323:16 534:5 618:5 145:11 147:12 148:2 548:1 568:14,15 571:7 promise 644:2 37:18 43:21 85:17 620:21 159:7,16 170:6,17 578:7 597:17 601:12 promote 248:19 327:18 93:16 99:2 107:19 prime 282:17,19 287:1 177:16 178:8 209:20 601:13 603:10 623:9 promotes 336:8 120:11 133:5 144:23 586:17 211:13 212:5,20 227:7 processed 15:16 promoting 21:19 146:21 158:18 169:17 principal 140:18 296:22 227:21 228:13 229:2 processes 24:6 148:22 promotion 150:11 171:10 177:2 226:13 317:5 564:12 601:14 231:1,12 240:23 241:8 525:6 552:24 prompt 660:4 226:14 293:21 382:15 principle 153:15 253:3 254:19 255:5 processing 13:17 promulgation 208:21 438:9 474:10 491:24 prior 13:24 15:5,10,15 263:17 264:21 265:5 107:25 414:8 proof 190:8 540:15 610:3 16:4,11 36:9,15 45:24 273:16 274:6 290:20 produce 23:3 142:13 propagate 280:20 presenter 443:1 46:21 50:9 128:19 294:9,23 305:4 306:7 547:24 548:19 propagation 250:5 presenters 443:16 622:9 320:18 321:22 323:11 produced 262:17 257:17 488:18 presenting 90:9 201:21 private 27:18 178:23 339:23 340:13,25 producer 285:1 propane 160:6,10,18,22 550:5 181:21 195:22,23,25 352:22 353:14 361:2 producers 284:24 160:23,24,25 161:6,10 presents 303:18 550:20 privilege 16:15 17:10 362:7,22 370:11 product 248:23 277:19 161:11 162:8,19 560:9 617:20 118:21 296:23 371:17 372:2 378:9 289:9 301:4 316:6,8 163:18,20 164:22 preserved 324:13 proactive 360:11 379:16 380:4 399:7 316:11 324:1 327:11 167:18,18 202:21 President 539:25 proactively 569:11 400:16 401:5 413:6 327:14 329:7,11 441:20 Presiding 2:7 3:9 4:10 probably 47:19 55:4 420:16 421:20 422:5 333:11 335:11,19 propeller 214:12,14 5:10 10:3 14:16 16:20 56:7 127:11 130:25 424:17 425:2 428:14 336:7,8 389:20,20 proper 18:23,24 165:9 17:2,18 18:8,9,17,19 142:11 192:13 217:21 429:2 430:24 431:11 410:23 436:7,12 226:15 267:9 406:25

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 39 properly 148:20 190:10 83:20 85:22 132:16 430:4 432:20,21 133:24 134:1 135:25 643:11 644:11,14 228:4 425:11 433:19 133:5 148:18 149:3 434:24 435:3 441:6,15 137:22 138:3 163:13 645:8 646:4 647:20,22 496:9 611:8 153:10 169:2,16,21 442:6 444:3,24 452:8 175:19 178:1,3,23 647:25 656:19,25 properties 165:17 170:22 171:13,16 455:22 459:25 468:6 179:25 180:3 183:13 658:3 247:19 250:5 175:18,18 186:20,22 484:18 488:16,23 186:4 188:7 191:11,11 publication 15:25 36:23 property 29:17 33:13 187:22 190:15 199:3 489:1 503:4 508:8 191:18 198:5 203:24 213:6 235:5 258:7 47:21 48:12 88:25 216:11,12 221:24 513:8,19 524:4 531:23 205:22 206:7,7 211:15 281:19 195:22,24,25 297:25 222:6 251:17 256:7 532:6 539:21 551:1 212:14,16 215:24 published 14:7 16:1 298:24 335:3 372:14 285:3 286:14,17 557:10 559:6,24 220:17,19,23,25,25 17:4 37:1 43:23 85:20 386:11 389:11 397:21 298:14,14,17 300:16 560:21,24 561:19 221:2,12,12,15 225:20 107:22 120:13 133:8 398:7 406:22 447:24 300:25 301:8 303:10 570:24 575:16 578:3 226:1,1,2,5,7,19 231:5 145:1 146:24 156:10 proponent 57:10 460:8 360:1 363:5 366:15 579:13 585:25 591:9 231:8,18 232:14,16,18 158:21 169:19 177:5 proponent's 172:12 368:16 369:21 374:12 595:2 604:9 617:3 232:19,20,22,23 221:7 265:24 270:6,20 proponents 196:23 376:9 377:13,17 626:3 631:24 635:15 234:20 239:10,12,15 289:21 290:2 293:24 310:22 354:10 417:17 380:13 382:19,25 639:11 642:16 648:5 239:20 240:11 242:2 311:19 354:9 367:3 417:19 384:25 385:4,14,14 655:23 656:13 242:14,16,25 243:6 386:5 proposal 112:23 160:7,9 386:3,21 394:22 397:4 provided 12:21 35:15 244:15,17 249:18,19 pull 394:19 659:25 235:11 269:9 329:17 397:5 401:9,10,12,18 51:21 55:18 61:17 254:24 255:1 256:10 pulled 223:12 390:9 342:11 348:23 383:19 403:4,17,19,19 405:8 67:16 68:2 111:5 256:23 258:15,21 483:2 564:20 385:7 432:13,21 405:21 406:12,18,20 136:2,8 150:11,23 262:25 263:5 265:15 pump 54:2,3,5,13 55:7 437:12 447:11 462:24 407:3 408:7,7 409:17 153:18 163:20 171:10 265:17,19,24 266:1,6 55:10,11,17,20 56:18 491:7 505:13 541:16 409:19 410:1 420:4 183:4,6 185:18 198:10 266:11,12,16 268:8 56:19,25 57:19 58:8 554:19 559:1,5 645:4 431:17 433:18,20 242:5,8 259:4 298:18 270:15,17,17 271:3,16 58:24,25 59:3,6 61:20 646:16,25 647:2 434:24 437:10,17 300:15 303:3 385:1 271:19,20,24 275:8,15 63:25 64:2 584:19 proposals 179:12,15 443:24 455:15 468:24 403:13,20 455:9 488:2 276:6,10 277:3,4,4,7,9 586:10,11,13,17,18,20 208:17 433:11,15 482:25 488:17,21 488:13 540:18 550:13 277:13 297:14 298:9 586:23 587:5,7,17 534:8 538:4,9,14,18 539:9 560:1 580:8 586:11 303:19 307:10,14 588:8 propose 213:7 270:16 539:14 540:14,20,24 614:3 655:21,21 661:6 309:12,13,14,15,16,18 pumps 57:23 368:8 proposed 23:24 24:22 541:8,17,19 542:3,12 provider 653:12 309:24 310:12,13,14 377:3 586:7 56:23 67:9 68:20 543:20 544:17 560:21 providers 151:14 153:22 310:18,20,21,23 311:7 purchased 552:22 102:22 109:1,21 563:18 565:5 576:9 645:10 646:13,18 311:8 313:16 323:21 purchasing 334:23 110:10,21 114:14 577:8 578:16,19 provides 24:21 46:14 341:7 342:17 366:2 purely 102:13 115:22 116:22 121:7 586:16 606:18 614:18 49:22 51:20 140:8 379:22,25 383:4 purged 41:22 153:15,20,23 162:5 protections 570:12 165:9,10,12 198:20 391:23 393:2 399:25 purging 160:1,2,5,6,7,9 170:22 183:21,25 protective 31:13 32:13 199:12 256:25 280:18 404:20 409:1,1,2,3 160:13,17 161:8,9,13 214:25 233:2 234:20 146:6,20 147:2 148:10 315:12 316:12,17 413:22 414:1,3,3,9,10 162:11 163:5,14,19 242:15,17 258:21 148:18 150:2 153:12 328:17 366:5 403:18 414:12,16,19 415:3,10 164:4 260:6 273:24 277:8,9 proven 360:2 384:11,21 405:8 440:18 528:24 415:12,13,19 417:1,12 purported 351:12 316:15,17 394:3 401:7 385:5 397:5 398:4 529:6,14 647:4 655:19 417:16,16,18,18 419:2 purports 516:16 419:5 423:15 432:14 482:9 provides' 419:23 431:2,3,6,15 432:14 purpose 16:9 36:14 434:13 437:14,24 proverb 208:24 providing 16:10 36:14 434:17 438:25 439:6 136:7 151:24 179:5 438:1 441:18 443:9 proves 469:16 570:10 149:22 164:19 190:15 439:23,25 440:9,10 231:20 232:25 233:22 446:24 447:3,14,18,20 provide 47:2 54:14 56:12 201:12 202:11 257:10 442:19,24 443:2,13,15 237:2,20 238:3 239:4 447:22 448:10 455:13 59:8 61:20 68:25 259:20 275:12 290:3 443:18 448:8 450:3,19 250:2 268:9 297:23 455:14 485:20 515:1,3 82:20 83:13 89:3 302:25 303:24 420:2 451:1 452:20,24 454:4 329:8 409:21 492:24 515:8,13,25 533:11 90:14 93:21 109:25 561:4 570:16,18 454:6 455:9 457:10,16 507:21 509:21 525:9 539:8 541:2 548:13 110:11,11 122:19 647:23 458:6,10 463:23 645:20 549:3 554:11 557:9 124:4 128:25 129:4,16 provision 209:9 344:15 465:11,15 470:14,14 purposes 14:21 35:6 558:7,9 608:14 617:9 129:22 130:1 135:22 provisions 179:16 471:15 473:14 475:23 87:19 129:19 222:4 617:20 650:4 136:16,22,24 140:13 391:14 419:4 483:4 476:15,18 479:10,16 302:21 proposing 472:19 141:4 149:4 150:4 Proximity 146:6,20 481:10,13 484:25 pursue 14:19 66:11 proprietary 136:24 259:7 151:9 162:15 172:4 147:2,3 488:23 489:17 492:17 227:15 228:8,21 518:11 525:6 190:16 194:12 213:24 PSI 160:25,25 200:16 493:3,9 496:10,21,24 229:10 264:16 340:8 propulsion 87:20 216:1,24 232:17 PSIG 160:10,22 163:2 499:18,21 504:18,20 480:17,24 521:3,18 protect 148:11 186:15 233:23 234:23 235:7 public 22:9,9 34:6 37:19 510:19 511:5 514:24 537:5 574:10 190:12 199:5 295:6 235:19 236:17 237:3 37:21 40:10,12 45:2,6 516:5 523:1,11 532:1 pursuing 185:5 300:20,22 335:2 239:11 243:14 244:5 52:14,22 66:21,25 540:21,23 544:14 purview 298:3 302:13 357:25 406:22 433:12 248:7 256:14,21 257:7 67:9,16,21 70:7,14 550:21 560:22 567:7 308:3,18 404:23 514:6 460:24 483:1,1 547:9 259:24 260:19 268:1,2 76:9 84:9 86:9,12 89:7 567:13,17 568:1 573:3 547:16 554:22 562:25 587:10 268:5,19 270:19 90:1 91:18,23 92:15 575:7 583:20 585:7 563:5 protected 33:17,17 277:22 278:9 282:14 92:19 94:20 95:1,18 590:16 594:12 597:13 push 385:7 392:21 252:14 300:11 467:1 285:3 290:8 298:6,23 95:20 97:11,18 98:10 603:2,3,7 612:11,14 393:10 487:16 623:11 protecting 57:6 58:4 303:2,9 308:23 327:24 98:12 99:10,16 100:8 618:2 623:25 624:6 pushbacks 288:2 148:13 191:25 382:20 343:12 344:2 351:11 100:10 101:7,12 102:4 625:11 628:11,13 Puskar 5:8 164:9,9 protection 25:3 26:14 351:12 356:10 365:20 102:6 103:3,8,25 631:16 633:6,13 634:8 put 57:10 69:13 81:24 29:14,17 30:5 32:24 366:15 374:3 382:2 104:2 105:20 106:7 634:13 635:23 636:11 112:14,18 114:5,9 33:12,22 44:1 47:8 383:9 402:22 406:12 108:14,15,17,18 111:3 636:17 638:7,20 130:22,25 139:20 54:15 57:17,24 69:4 416:15 423:8 426:15 111:3 117:8,9,17,18 640:16,19 642:4 643:4 156:16 170:25 171:3

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 40

186:14 206:13 207:14 583:3,16,17,18 610:7 317:3 318:20 319:14 raceways 440:8,24 reading 87:16 383:19 237:19 260:22 271:10 610:9 650:21 658:21 320:2,11,14,18,22 442:21 443:7 446:25 reads 283:25 271:10 285:7 288:4,6 658:25 659:2,5 322:4,7,12,15,17,24 447:2,19,19,20 487:5 ready 37:16 40:9 72:24 313:18 324:6 331:6 question' 210:21 323:4,8,10 325:25 Rack 27:12 72:25 150:3 151:5,22 333:17 341:7 342:11 questions 42:4 165:14 326:18 327:23 329:1 radio 397:24 156:1,18 282:17,18 342:16 351:10,24 204:2 566:9 329:13 330:9,11,13,22 radioactive 169:22 287:1 305:13 338:14 369:18 375:5 420:1 quibble 622:9 331:19,21 332:4,6,16 171:14 173:23,25 389:15 396:6 618:20 462:8 477:7 482:4 quick 49:9 198:9 263:24 333:20,23 335:6 174:1 175:17 618:25 483:12 496:15 506:8 492:19 551:11 584:16 336:12 337:3,9,13,15 rail 119:22 120:10,16 real 55:12 57:20 67:10 534:8 603:20 621:3 quickly 83:25 196:6 337:17 338:11,18,20 126:11 161:12 94:11 122:20 124:1 626:24 632:9 653:9,9 358:1 591:21 625:3 339:23 340:5,20,23 Railroad 87:10 167:2 181:6 188:9 puts 82:23 114:10 186:3 quietly 13:4 35:22 342:18,20 344:1 345:7 rain 538:16 544:13,13 209:7 215:2 247:2 260:25 333:13 387:20 quite 105:3 141:22 345:18,21 346:21 raise 61:23 75:12 78:11 257:14 280:12 282:4 397:7 162:24 183:24 269:8 347:16,24 349:9 78:19,20,22 131:15 296:7 358:11 389:21 putting 116:10 348:17 282:17,18 318:1 350:11 351:1,17 352:4 232:10 242:21 527:23 401:24 576:1 584:16 357:4 372:13 419:10 328:15 377:8 466:7 352:8 353:6,13,20 568:22 658:4,9 606:7 552:14 561:17 621:8 492:21 553:13 561:9 354:23 356:7,9,19 raised 129:10 153:25 realign 123:14 623:6 646:18 564:3 358:3,19 359:16 646:4 651:16 realistically 214:25 puzzling 312:13 Quiter 5:10 168:20,24 360:19,24 361:5 rampant 603:4 507:1 170:5,12,16 171:7 362:14,21 364:15 Randy 8:20 9:10 379:19 reality 69:19 324:2 Q 172:2 173:8 174:8,17 365:17,19 366:17,23 379:19 380:5,5 408:13 realize 191:10 358:21 QA 248:17 174:23 175:8,21 367:20 368:11 369:13 408:13 495:24,24 401:11 471:16 quacks 621:25 176:12 177:15 178:2,7 369:15 370:4,8,14 496:5,7 541:23,23 realized 156:15 580:5 qualifications 525:2,4 180:18 182:8 184:5 371:22 372:1,25 374:2 range 148:25 161:4,5 really 63:25 68:5 69:11 qualified 57:10 335:18 185:23 186:16 187:5 374:13 375:9,22 355:17,17,20 380:17 69:16 81:9 83:3,24 505:10 506:1,14 189:4 191:2 193:1,7 376:16 377:21 378:2,6 range.' 354:16 127:21 128:9 131:4 515:14,15,19,24 517:2 194:5 195:7 197:6 378:12,22 379:24 ranging 246:5 141:2 161:8 163:17 518:13 522:10,13,16 198:1,4,7,16 199:18 380:3,25 382:1 383:15 rapid 284:11 164:15 170:24 172:14 524:22,25 532:2 200:4,6,8 201:18 385:19 386:25 387:8 rapidly 148:8 173:18 174:15,20 qualifier 122:17 202:16 204:12,16 388:15 390:18,25 rarely 354:18 191:15,24 192:17,20 qualify 56:23 344:15 205:5,24 206:10 208:2 392:2,9 393:20 396:10 Raske 392:5 199:2,9,11 201:16 quality 152:12 295:17 208:6,8,10 209:10,17 396:22 398:20 399:4 rate 126:15,16 127:20 220:22 221:15 225:15 383:5 397:20 209:23 210:9,18,23 399:11 400:23,25 128:6,6 148:6 247:18 232:9 236:1,3,12,24 quantified.' 128:23 211:2,6,11 212:2,15 401:4 402:2,21 403:24 284:14 358:16 239:6 251:12 276:12 quantify 56:23 246:12 212:19,22,25 213:2 405:1 406:4 407:7 rated 404:11 446:6 469:1 278:17 281:15 284:6 quantities 279:7,13 215:5 216:21 218:5,16 408:11 409:11 410:7 471:2,2 286:3 311:16 313:12 quantity 192:8,9 279:17 220:5 221:17,22 223:4 410:13 411:4,9 412:3 rates 128:4 148:7 243:20 344:9 348:25 390:14 286:1 435:16 224:21 225:18 226:17 412:17 413:12,16 250:18 466:1 394:25 397:1,12 quarter 21:21 196:21 227:12 228:1,18 229:7 415:5 416:14 418:3,11 rating 102:16 105:17 419:24 437:18 448:24 question 59:23 62:4 229:17 230:17,20,23 418:22 419:17 420:7 469:10 470:24 487:10 474:13 502:7 543:22 72:15 156:2 161:23 231:1,7,11,15 233:20 420:13,20 422:1,5,24 490:13 531:4 575:19 576:10,12 209:14,18,21 210:8,14 234:21 235:22 236:6 423:1,7,16,24 424:3 ratings 105:15 473:1 580:6 582:20 600:22 210:19 211:10,12 237:7,23 238:21,25 424:22 425:1,15 rationale 61:19 110:20 600:23 605:7 608:17 252:24 253:1,3,12,16 239:14,24 240:9 241:4 426:14 427:4,6,10,21 232:18 337:14 604:2 630:11 645:12 648:20 253:17 272:7,12,19,24 241:8 243:15 244:3 427:25 428:21 429:1 615:14 645:14 650:19 653:3,19 272:24 290:14,18,21 245:18,25 246:2 247:3 429:14 430:3,10 431:5 re- 130:12 660:10 291:14,20,21,22 320:5 249:10 251:4,24 431:10 433:1 435:2,9 re-brought 522:14 reason 41:15 52:5 64:6 320:12,19 321:3,7,8 252:20,25 253:6 254:6 435:20 436:20 437:5 re-enters 234:16 115:10 129:7 134:18 354:13 360:8,22,25 254:9,12,25 255:4,8 438:24 439:4,24 440:3 re-scan 41:17 140:20 160:16 163:16 361:3,10,15,16 370:6 255:13,16,19,21,24 442:8 444:2 446:18 reach 122:5 426:10 164:15 165:8 208:18 370:9,11,20,24,25 256:2,4 258:12 259:22 448:19 449:6,10,16 626:24 218:1 234:19 242:7 377:25 378:3,7,10,18 261:13,21,25 262:3,5 450:21,23,25 451:5,15 reached 59:5 249:20 309:7 316:4 378:24,25 398:23 262:24 263:3 264:1,4 452:7,19,23 reaches 438:14 322:19 335:3 343:8 399:5,8,20,21 401:24 264:6,13 265:1,4 quo 644:25 reaching 54:23 283:20 358:16 359:23 360:17 420:9,14,16,25 421:4 267:13 268:17 269:24 quorum 15:4,5,7,11,15 reaction 643:23 360:17 363:21 377:18 421:5 423:21 449:9,11 270:3,21 272:4,11,14 35:5 read 37:18 116:22 130:6 387:11 395:18 435:18 449:14,24,25 474:22 274:1,5,8,12 276:16 quote 128:20 225:13 207:19,20,22 237:14 448:16,24 460:6 475:5,8,19,20 477:15 278:8 280:23 281:21 297:24 298:1 354:13 251:13 271:21,23 482:21 487:16 489:23 477:17,19,24 503:8,16 283:13 285:16 287:18 354:16 382:22 383:2 305:20 309:8 324:7 489:25 491:18 500:9 503:21,22 504:1,3 289:11 290:11,17,23 427:1 444:17 447:14 384:5 456:5 459:12 506:2 516:15 528:15 522:9 524:9,15,24,25 291:2,8,11 292:18,20 514:23 515:13 564:16 466:6 468:17 472:24 528:19,25 529:3,5,10 525:18,20,23 526:8,9 293:16 294:8,18,22 quoted 540:25 472:25 490:23 509:20 529:23 535:14 587:25 544:23 545:1,4,14,15 296:10 299:1,22 554:9 580:13 643:22 592:14 595:19 610:2 545:16 554:18 555:3,5 301:10,17,19,22 302:6 R readability 456:12 626:11 633:2 645:16 555:8,15,19,19,20 304:4,9 305:9,12,18 R 2:1 469:25 646:6 648:24 565:18,20,23 566:9,10 305:20 306:1,4,6,20 race 185:9 reader 466:8,12 reasonable 149:21 572:8,10,13,24,24,25 308:22 311:2 313:6 raceway 447:2,6,13,14 readily 128:21 434:17 214:21 449:4 463:16 580:21,25 581:19 314:23 315:23 316:21 448:25 449:4 632:14 578:20 614:8 621:4 576:5 582:6

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 41 reasoning 213:13 233:9 101:16,21,22 103:10 308:9,13,15 309:25 307:10 321:3,14 339:2 611:3 642:11,14 239:20 241:17 243:14 103:12 106:9,11,16,17 310:3,4,12,15,16 352:15 361:10,25 648:12 654:18 463:16 117:20,22 118:2,3 311:20 312:23 314:6 370:18 371:10 378:16 referenced 68:13 116:9 reasons 109:2 151:2 125:3,5 132:1,3 138:5 315:18 317:23 318:4 379:8 399:15 400:4 142:2 162:11 164:1 165:3 185:20 204:7 138:7 143:19,21 155:1 318:17 319:1,3,4,10 411:16 415:19 420:24 244:17 249:23 408:23 241:15 242:5 245:17 157:14,16 167:19,25 319:19,21 320:1 421:13 424:10 425:20 466:7 554:8 569:19 247:9 249:6 319:3 168:2 175:25 176:2 323:24 325:5 327:3,5 428:7 430:17 439:11 639:8 375:20 436:2 572:2 187:25 211:18,19 327:7,22 328:7,8 443:2,18 449:20 450:8 references 56:5 68:6 608:12 626:12 212:3 218:13 224:25 329:10 330:5 332:22 453:4 457:21 464:9 126:23 160:21 167:17 rebuilt 306:16 318:7 226:22,23 227:4,5 334:14 335:21,24 472:10 475:14 476:3 219:6 244:18 311:23 336:4 409:5 496:8,12 240:13,15,20,21 336:23,25 337:24 479:21 483:12 493:14 referred 113:12 404:5 496:16 253:23,25 254:16,17 401:19,21,23 402:16 498:7 501:7 503:23 490:23 618:14 rebuttal 534:10 262:14 263:7,9,14,15 404:16,19 405:16,21 504:10 511:10 520:7 referring 69:10 175:4 recall 41:19 88:23 273:5,7,13,14 292:2,4 406:24 407:3,24 408:4 522:25 523:11 526:4 271:6 237:10,12 548:1 558:3 292:10,11 304:13,15 409:7 417:2,15 420:2 526:17 536:22 545:10 refers 222:5 489:15 receive 277:24 304:20,21 321:12,13 422:10 425:5 426:23 545:25 555:14 556:4 refine 283:12 received 220:17,25 321:19,20 338:25 494:13,14 495:10,13 561:11 566:4,18 reflash 257:21 242:4,14 266:11 377:5 339:1,7,8 352:12,14 498:12,15 499:6 572:19 573:8 583:12 reflect 18:1 42:22 81:22 414:2 415:10 434:8 352:19,20 361:22,24 502:23 512:7,7,9,11 583:25 585:6 589:12 205:3 481:21 531:7 362:4,5 371:7,9,14,15 517:10 523:4,21 590:15 593:6 594:11 reflecting 297:16 343:22 receiving 32:3 334:24 379:5,7,13,14 400:2,3 524:12,14 525:11 596:9 597:13 599:17 reflectively 42:19 receptacle 298:14 400:9,10 411:13,15,20 584:23 585:10 588:18 605:13 611:24 624:11 reflects 121:7 237:20 312:17,17 494:12,13 411:21 421:10,12,17 590:7 594:6,15 598:15 625:10 627:24 633:18 257:23 557:5 494:16 497:19 499:5 421:18 424:7,9,14,15 626:13 627:2 637:22 636:22 638:7 640:6 reformulation 122:23 500:12 538:9,14 427:8 428:4,6,11,12 638:12 639:2 643:16 657:5 659:7 refresh 73:8,9,10,12 575:16 577:2,4 578:15 430:14,16,21,22 439:8 reconditioners 322:2 recorded 16:22 41:22 refrigerator 395:13 578:18 439:10,15,16 450:5,7 330:4 400:20 424:20 540:15 648:22,24 refurbish 426:5 receptacles 302:23 450:12,13 453:2,3,9 428:19 493:24 501:17 recording 2:10 13:14 refurbished 130:15 353:25 354:17,19 453:10 457:18,20 518:9 520:22 20:7 36:6 41:7 306:16 318:7 336:25 356:25 363:5,19 368:4 464:6,8 475:25 476:2 reconditioning 305:25 records 323:20 627:2 372:8 469:5 494:10 479:18,20 481:19 306:11 311:17 312:2,9 recreation 88:16 96:14 refurbishing 334:17 495:9,11 497:10 499:2 493:11,13 501:5,6 312:13,18,20,25 rectify 432:13 502:6 500:9 502:2 508:20 504:7,9 511:7,9 520:4 313:25 314:10,12,14 Recyclers 428:18 regard 171:19,25 548:18 509:10 538:5 558:6,14 520:6 526:14,16 315:5,15,17,20 316:5 red 17:21 38:4 40:20 548:21 549:11 576:24 536:19,21 545:22,24 316:9,13 317:25 318:2 62:16 285:21 511:3 regarding 13:10 36:3 recertification 336:9 553:2 556:1,3 566:16 319:9 324:22 325:9,10 608:15 42:5,17 45:19,23 recipient 2:14,16,18,20 566:17 572:2 573:5,7 327:8,10,13,18 334:20 redone 369:23 46:15 297:11 302:15 2:22,24 3:1,3,5,7 583:22,24 589:9,11 335:15,22 338:8 403:3 reduce 438:13 441:11,16 382:23 409:4 516:18 28:16 32:17 593:3,5 596:6,8 403:7,14,16,21 407:25 442:1 444:11 445:19 540:16 548:7 554:18 recipients 21:3 31:24 599:14,16 608:3 409:22 410:22 417:17 448:4 469:25 541:6 regardless 16:20 317:24 34:22 611:21,23 614:24 419:6,8 426:12 499:3 543:3 562:22 644:22 486:12 557:25 558:11 recited 260:14 624:8,10 627:19,22,23 500:16,18,19 502:6,25 reduced 142:14 241:22 558:13,15 618:22 recognition 25:15 633:15,17 636:19,21 513:5,15 515:5 516:18 246:18 382:16 620:13 171:11 640:3,5 643:13,15 518:14 519:3,12 reduces 647:4 regards 474:7 576:8 recognize 17:3 20:24 657:2,4 522:11,16 587:7,17 reducing 20:20 150:12 617:10 33:9 34:5 172:1 recommend-- 225:25 592:3,7 598:12 627:7 171:17 register 62:6,8 178:12 186:25 207:21 recommendation 15:12 639:3 reduction 34:6 244:12 registering 657:9 216:17 257:9 287:11 167:20 180:11 222:19 reconditioning' 306:19 244:20 386:2 488:21 registration 13:9 14:20 314:4 410:19 506:9 283:10 326:9 444:25 reconditions 308:6 reductions 380:23 16:18,24 36:2 533:6 recommendations 16:8 333:7 512:13 redundant 94:5 578:25 regs 13:16,19 15:17,22 recognized 21:16,22 16:10 24:4 36:12,15 reconsideration 522:15 Reedy 5:1 154:13,13 36:25 23:15 116:14 139:8,19 recommended 19:3,6 reconsidered 289:8 reemphasize 597:11 regular 64:17 130:23 140:10 165:3 258:1 125:13 171:22 179:22 297:13 609:23 reestablish 50:22 325:6 397:4 310:4 312:19,20 442:3 198:12 330:20 408:9 reconvene 339:19 reevaluated 335:17 regularly 515:5 448:7 471:12,13 410:11 435:17 443:20 400:15 reexamined 274:22 regulate 280:3 302:20 473:18 474:11 487:21 recommending 88:8 record 14:22 16:13 37:4 refer 19:5 68:13 69:7 557:10 575:15 547:19 552:3 569:17 103:17,18 212:2 38:7 40:22 41:20,23 267:6 347:4 373:5 regulated 196:17 201:7 639:5 651:7 256:21 647:20 53:2 55:25 56:9 62:11 405:9 451:11 452:15 206:4,4,5 651:15 recognizes 109:9 440:21 recommends 87:24 65:11 70:19 84:15 490:19 491:1 515:19 regulation 178:22 544:5 547:8 recondition 308:13 92:3 95:6 97:22 99:21 referee 332:6,9 197:19 274:19 276:23 recommend 38:21,22 333:16 337:25 406:1 101:17 103:13 106:12 reference 48:25 49:9 regulations 13:15 15:14 41:2,3 52:24 53:1,6,7 415:17 425:7,13 426:5 117:23 125:6 132:4 52:8 96:24 97:14 17:23 145:18,18 207:3 65:8,10,15,16 70:16 429:4,5,25 430:1 138:8 143:22 157:17 116:11 126:13 127:19 218:3,14 232:11 70:18 76:25 78:4,5 494:15 518:18 590:19 168:3 176:3 210:2 127:23 172:24 173:18 242:22 243:7 266:7,8 84:12,14,19,20 91:25 597:16 598:14 211:20 226:24 228:3,3 199:21 256:11 271:25 267:1 302:23 303:19 92:2,8,9 95:3,5,10,11 reconditionable 497:20 240:16 253:11 254:1 288:10 394:4 434:23 303:21 309:17 409:10 97:20,21 98:2,3 99:18 625:6 263:10 272:19 273:8 437:13 438:2,4,5 413:25 414:6,24 99:20,25 100:1 101:14 reconditioned 306:24 291:16 292:5 304:16 487:19 544:4,8 604:4 547:21,23,24 548:2

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 42

550:21 552:12 569:19 443:14 448:17 455:7 253:2 290:19 320:15 renewed 429:9 149:1 386:9 433:16 571:23 572:1 578:10 490:20 528:15 553:13 361:1 370:10 378:8 RENS 425:8 482:18 578:11 579:10 553:18 613:25 631:16 399:6 420:15 449:12 renters 372:15 reporting 24:3 394:7 regulators 194:19 647:22 453:15 475:6 525:21 renumbered 648:20 reports 43:6 44:3 85:8 reinforce 197:15 418:16 rejecting 162:4 239:20 545:2 555:6 565:21 reoccurrence 200:22 85:25 107:11 108:3 reinforced 298:4 495:10 351:22 501:18 593:20 572:11 583:3 629:9 reorder 42:11 120:1,18 132:21 reinforcing 645:16 593:21 remains 139:16 312:3 reordered 304:24 453:19 133:13 136:3 144:14 reinstallation 523:23 rejection 233:1 396:6 318:9,14 558:24 546:5 574:15 145:5 146:11 147:6 reinstitute 540:24 528:16,19 645:8 remanufactured 311:20 reorganization 444:15 158:8,25 169:7,24 reiterate 41:24 174:25 relate 409:4 597:16 318:7 408:16 409:5 457:3 176:18 177:10 292:25 204:7 452:12 540:12 related 15:13 37:10 55:4 414:18 496:23 reorganize 128:15 294:2 391:12 394:5,9 542:19 648:23 82:18 148:9 221:18 remanufacturing 306:16 rep 435:13 reposition 528:23 reiteration 427:15 232:9 236:24 243:1 334:19 repair 316:13 329:22 represent 45:16 49:19 reject 42:19 53:14,17 266:10,17 309:16 remark 336:2 337:20 repairs 329:22 154:14 159:24 186:21 64:22 65:6 67:21 313:25 314:12 317:25 remarks 17:12 18:14 repeat 294:24 412:24 187:12 189:8 201:23 110:20 112:22 121:3,5 324:1,3 327:9 349:24 512:5 551:9 416:23 425:19 437:15 213:5 252:12 255:17 121:9 124:17,25 353:4,9 356:17 361:19 remedy 558:4 462:6 551:10 660:6 255:22 263:22 294:13 125:20,23 131:12,23 362:12,16 371:4 remember 13:5 35:23 repeated 575:22 295:1 299:4 310:13 138:19,22 141:16 374:11 414:2,6,13 215:8 253:7,12 272:18 repeatedly 153:21 434:3 315:25 316:25 329:3 142:16 143:10,16 437:15 461:14 468:12 321:1 334:25 361:9 repetition 396:11,12 340:17 345:12 353:1 147:17 155:6 157:1,11 468:12 484:25 487:5 491:4 549:20 553:13 replace 47:15 48:1 355:7 359:20 365:25 159:10,12 166:15 523:4,5 540:16 542:12 553:17 650:14 312:19,21 314:9,15 375:13 385:22 404:2 167:11,23 170:10,13 546:19,23 551:9 remembering 370:19 344:19 348:11,12 410:15 423:12 426:2 175:11,23 241:2,5 555:24 556:23 566:13 remind 12:12 17:18 35:7 385:3,12 394:20 420:2 427:7 442:16 454:2,13 253:20 263:23 264:25 585:9,11 587:17 36:6 41:13 154:3 426:10 429:25 441:9 461:11 468:9 484:23 265:2,14 273:3 294:16 590:19,20,21 594:14 314:13 345:16 349:14 500:13 519:5 616:8 495:4 507:16 509:17 294:19 299:19 304:5 594:16 597:15 598:23 553:12 replaceable 513:11 512:25 518:6 523:17 304:11 305:23 306:2 600:4,7 611:11,18 reminder 121:4 411:24 replaced 245:13 513:12 524:19 540:2 542:9 317:1,2 321:9 323:2,5 625:13,14 638:11,12 585:3 627:3 546:14 547:4 585:18 330:18 337:4 338:22 642:5 remorse 303:7 replacement 312:14 587:22 590:25 592:11 340:19,24 341:5,10 relates 323:15 610:17 remote 181:8,9,24 182:1 314:6 344:25 348:11 594:21 595:16 597:22 342:13 346:20 350:24 relating 496:22 610:25 182:18 188:5 196:2,4 441:10 500:17 502:24 598:5 600:1,13 602:22 351:18 352:10 353:2,8 relation 112:1 220:22 196:6 207:13 259:8 513:7 514:19 607:3 612:9,20 621:1 356:16 361:18 362:11 288:16 287:10 466:21 587:1 replacements 500:10 625:21 626:8 631:12 362:15 371:3,20,23 relative 121:22 221:6 614:10 replacing 160:17 312:6 647:16 374:11 379:3 400:21 284:2 327:18 533:7 removal 312:24 323:17 312:16 representation 194:10 401:1 404:25 411:5,11 538:24 562:12 563:25 328:16 329:8 513:6 replicates 445:13 530:10 413:10,13 414:8 418:2 579:21 661:8 523:22 525:9 605:24 replies 557:25 representative 66:10 421:8,25 422:2 423:14 relatively 46:10 283:3 630:12 637:23 reply 220:8 177:23 195:5 227:14 423:17 424:5,21,23 383:5 612:22 remove 44:17 45:18 49:2 report 14:12 17:8 42:25 228:7,20 229:9 436:23 425:10 426:24 427:11 Relay 405:4 67:7 148:23 229:6 43:3,5,17,19,21,22,24 480:16 483:11,15 428:2,19,22 430:12 relays 584:21 265:9 267:12 299:20 44:7 63:20 85:2,4,7,14 532:12 573:18 619:13 435:18 436:19 472:17 release 97:14 126:14,15 327:17 328:18 329:20 85:16,18,18,21 86:4 620:22 622:17 642:22 491:7 493:25 494:2 126:16 127:19,20 331:8 333:8 336:5 93:8 107:4,7,10,16,18 649:13 495:20 500:21 501:2 128:4,6,6 237:15 338:9,9 385:2,11 107:20,21,23 108:7 representatives 300:19 501:20 504:5 511:21 243:20,23 247:18 423:14 499:4 519:5 119:21,23,25 120:7,9 645:6 511:23 514:10 519:20 releasing 165:18 274:23 542:24 543:1 559:7 120:11,12,14,22 represented 117:14 520:2 521:12 522:2,4 relevant 49:22 112:16 578:11 605:22 627:6,6 123:10 132:14,17,20 222:24 488:14 585:20 526:12 528:1,4 529:25 275:17 359:9 360:9 removed 66:14 173:5 133:2,4,6,7,9,18 144:8 591:3 597:25 625:24 535:14 536:10,17 570:19 619:5 630:3 227:18 228:11,24 144:10,13,20,22,24,24 representing 24:18 537:16,20 542:11 reliability 171:16 194:16 229:13 264:19 326:23 145:2,9 146:4,8,10,17 44:16 48:21 62:4 545:19 546:18,22 reliable 202:11 482:10 327:2 336:2 340:11 146:19,22,22,25 105:4 142:19 164:11 551:18 554:1 555:23 relied 300:24 345:2 480:20 481:2 147:10 158:3,5,7,15 190:5 194:8 199:25 556:19,22 566:12 relies 23:20 163:21 482:12 512:13 521:6 158:17,19,20,22 159:5 204:16 217:4 227:11 584:9,11 587:16 relocate 348:15 521:21 537:8 538:3 169:1,3,6,13,15,18,18 229:5 244:9 252:23 588:24 589:7,20,20,23 relocated 345:3 573:21 574:13 578:14 169:20 170:4 176:12 254:23 256:8 289:14 592:19 593:1,23 relocating 642:8 607:23 176:15,17,24 177:1,3 290:13 300:1 302:8 594:24 595:22 596:4 relocation 642:10 removes 187:15 366:14 177:3,6,13 220:19,20 305:15 306:10 309:3 596:18,21 599:4,12 rely 198:10 394:5 422:18 423:5 437:13 517:2 221:14 232:15 242:1 313:8 316:23 317:6 600:3,6 604:7 605:2 442:4 517:22 646:25 247:20 249:1 251:13 319:17 322:1 329:16 606:12 611:10,18 remain 57:13 64:19 removing 242:18 328:5 252:3,4,4,9 265:25 330:25 335:8 336:15 614:1 619:7 624:21,23 126:23 128:3 162:11 330:6 334:13,14 270:19 292:20,23,24 341:4 345:10 349:12 625:25 627:5,10,17 259:2 318:2 551:10 422:17 516:17 541:7 293:17,19,21,22,24 350:5 353:17 356:14 637:8,10 639:20 640:1 577:15 606:11 542:3 606:1 645:19 294:7 357:6 380:17,19 358:6 362:9 364:23 rejected 111:2 191:19 remainder 339:17 646:6 386:5,7 394:5,6 366:19 371:19 373:8 220:18,22 221:3 remained 23:18 rendered 110:3 604:21,24,25 617:11 379:20 380:6 381:8 222:18 226:3,16 remaining 18:11 31:16 rendering 577:7 617:14 642:11 651:17 388:19 402:10 408:13 232:19,20 239:23 32:2 131:8 209:19 renewable 425:7 reported 63:23 131:19 416:19 418:7 423:11

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 43

424:20 426:19 429:22 91:15 150:6 156:7 575:18,25 577:11 respirators 397:17 restores 610:15 433:9 435:23 437:8 260:18 267:3 285:4,6 578:6,23,25 580:1 respond 186:10 196:7 restoring 247:10 446:22 449:8 456:3 310:10 327:1,16 328:6 601:19,24 602:6 203:12 204:4 270:11 restrict 489:13 459:10 478:21 493:23 333:6 334:13 336:5 603:19 605:23,25 338:15 395:9 415:24 restricting 414:17 495:19,25 497:8,25 343:18,25 344:8,18 606:3,10 607:21,21 515:2 restriction 260:16 408:5 502:16 504:25 513:24 347:21,22 349:15 608:1 614:6 615:24 responded 190:5,6 restrictions 490:12 515:11 521:11 522:1 354:14 357:3 366:8,10 616:16 618:23 619:2 224:3,4 532:1 535:21 537:16 540:4 383:10 395:4 413:21 623:8,12 628:25 responders 182:7 restrictive 46:19 109:18 549:16 551:22 555:2 417:4,7 432:23 441:25 629:13 630:14 641:25 183:14 186:4,11 188:7 117:4 234:3,18 559:17 563:13 567:3 445:13 458:17,19,24 642:9 645:17,25 194:21 199:13 203:3 restricts 529:21 570:1 571:4 572:7 463:2,16 467:2 491:20 648:16 652:15 203:24 215:24 243:25 result 91:13 122:23 577:24 579:18 580:20 516:4 536:4 540:24 requires 44:18 58:6,14 responding 186:15 159:1 268:7 300:23 587:15 591:14 593:15 542:24 548:25 568:5,7 161:14 163:9 166:4,5 387:15 446:16 355:15 359:7 366:9 596:18 604:14 608:23 568:19 569:4,13 167:15 170:22 232:12 response 96:11 100:24 373:19 374:19 380:12 617:8 620:21 624:20 571:18 578:14,22 250:16 328:7 329:18 104:14 122:20 129:8 384:24 385:10 386:12 635:7 638:17 641:17 614:3,14 622:7 625:5 443:19 444:17 445:9 433:22 465:1 478:2 405:25 433:17 468:21 650:1,2 652:8 637:19,23 448:11 515:14 538:4 532:23 539:2 559:14 468:25 484:7 486:18 represents 162:12 requirement's 344:22 540:10 606:5 655:24 569:25 594:19 613:17 514:18 518:15 598:13 194:10 requirement.' 515:25 requiring 12:20 35:14 615:8 625:18 641:15 598:25 603:11 637:25 reproduce 127:22 requirements 45:20 46:1 222:25 224:19 responses 354:8 367:4 647:5 651:9 reputation 384:23 67:11,12,17 83:5 275:22 279:10 323:16 responsibilities 296:13 resulted 296:17 355:18 request 42:13 61:8 81:9 87:12 93:4,4,11,12 446:14 460:9 576:9 302:14 549:9 585:3 356:3 516:5 646:4 137:2 190:25 215:12 94:15 96:8,23 97:7 reread 627:20 597:12 resulting 16:13 22:16 237:5 273:22 276:20 98:22 100:21 109:4 reroute 348:15 responsibility 300:21 37:5 438:14 402:15 419:5,7 456:8 110:1 111:12 134:23 research 122:25 128:21 303:19 307:5 370:2 results 15:25 16:1,9 464:17 465:1 470:6 134:24 149:5,7,10,17 129:23 148:21 149:4 415:21 422:20,21 18:17 36:13,24,25 489:2 567:7 602:9 150:2 151:6 153:6,8 153:10,15 163:21 434:1 517:11 550:21 38:10,20 39:15,15 604:4,6 607:22 618:11 153:23 154:1,4 160:5 247:20 333:9,14 560:10 579:9 607:8 41:1 44:4 53:5 65:1,14 644:24 160:8 162:9 163:6,24 382:19 383:1,7,12 responsible 17:7 23:24 78:3 84:18 85:25 92:7 requested 42:11 89:2 167:1 174:4 175:16 443:24 506:18 562:23 41:25 44:3 85:24 93:8 95:9 98:1 99:24 443:23 470:4 476:8 181:3,13,16,17,24 researching 508:23 108:3 120:17 133:12 101:20 103:16 106:15 481:25 483:18 554:20 182:24 183:4,6,10,13 reserved 234:15 145:4 147:5 158:25 108:4 118:1 120:18 567:13 183:15,16,24 184:3 reset 78:12,21 387:19 169:24 177:9,25 200:1 123:7 125:11 129:17 requesting 189:11 191:24 198:25 199:4 578:20 294:2 302:10 326:10 132:6 133:13 136:4,5 644:19 206:22 214:16,22 resetting 72:3,8 397:15 327:8 431:20 505:8 136:23 137:8 138:11 requests 419:4 613:25 215:23 216:6,11,11,12 reside 368:8 571:11,12 517:7 534:2 549:18 143:25 145:5 147:6 require 47:20 50:23 216:17 217:9,16,20,23 residence 385:10 564:24 553:5 559:19 562:19 150:23 157:20 168:6 63:21 88:5,8 96:23 218:11,24,25 219:2,10 residential 31:8 57:8 564:4 570:3 577:25 169:25 176:6 177:10 162:9 163:8,10,14 219:20,24 223:2,15,25 164:20 201:12 380:17 629:6,8 211:6,24 227:3 240:19 184:14 216:16 246:11 232:9 233:23 234:12 382:17,23 383:3 385:9 rest 387:24 407:9 549:13 253:15 254:15 263:13 258:22 261:3 262:18 236:2,12,22,23 237:1 386:5,8,16,19 447:21 restate 52:21 65:5 70:12 272:22 273:12 291:19 276:5 312:24 330:3 250:4 258:19 265:11 466:25 76:7 84:8 91:22 94:25 292:9 294:3 304:19 341:18 345:1,1 406:15 267:7 268:16 269:19 resides 300:3 422:19 97:16 99:15 103:7 321:6,18 339:6 352:18 415:1 433:11 440:7,23 275:13 284:10 286:20 423:13 551:12 106:6 117:16 124:24 361:14 362:3 370:23 442:20 443:8 445:11 286:21 287:7 295:22 residual 166:2 409:25 131:22 138:2 143:15 371:13 378:23 379:12 446:24 447:3 459:15 295:24 298:15 301:2,7 resign 46:2 157:10 167:22 175:22 396:1 399:19 400:8 466:23 487:25 540:10 309:21 310:19 311:23 resist 209:4 488:18 226:18 240:10 253:19 411:19 421:3,16 541:19 548:5 567:8 327:14 329:11 332:25 resistance 142:3 446:6 263:4 273:2 291:24 424:13 428:10 430:20 570:13 576:16 637:23 334:9,10 335:12,16 466:3 488:13,22 304:10 338:21 352:9 437:23 439:14 449:23 655:25 343:5 344:11,21,24 563:18 576:16 371:2 379:2 399:23 450:11 453:8 475:18 required 24:1 46:16,23 353:25 359:5 372:7 resistive 487:10 411:10 421:7 424:4 476:6 493:17 501:11 46:24 47:14,18,23,25 383:14 384:22 392:15 resolution 497:16 428:1 430:11 439:5 504:1,13 520:10 48:14 49:21 81:25 393:11,25 406:17 resolve 307:6 377:16 452:23 457:15 464:3 526:20 555:18 556:7 91:1 115:11 122:18 407:24 413:25 414:17 resolved 74:22 309:15 475:21 479:15 493:8 566:8,22 572:23 160:9 183:19 206:25 414:21 419:10 431:20 442:19 519:15 561:12 501:1 504:4 511:4 573:11 584:3 589:15 223:2 251:15 260:7,20 431:23 434:1,3,12,16 resort 269:8 520:1 526:11 536:16 593:9 596:12 599:20 303:22 309:25 310:14 436:14 440:15 444:10 resources 29:24 209:4 545:18 555:22 566:11 612:2 624:14 628:3 312:22 349:4,17 351:6 444:14 445:17 454:16 547:22 573:2 583:19 589:6 633:21 636:25 640:9 367:11 392:18 417:2 456:21 458:22 461:5 respect 163:12 183:21 592:25 596:3 598:11 643:19 659:16,16 489:9 507:20 508:1 463:14 471:7 482:24 215:19 225:23,25 599:11 611:17 624:5 resume 119:18 230:15 538:25 560:11 568:24 483:3 489:15 500:15 239:21 408:24 434:9 627:16 633:12 636:16 retail 482:15 578:25 587:3 601:25 524:11 525:12 529:7 608:23 639:25 643:10 656:24 retired 88:19 189:7 602:4 603:16 611:7 531:5 532:25 533:1,4 respectfully 180:16 657:25 396:17 615:21 645:23 534:13 538:2 543:16 214:24 520:23 604:4,6 restatement 598:9 retrieve 360:6 requirement 46:3,10,12 547:21 548:10 552:14 607:22 647:1 restating 434:11 retroactive 46:1 225:24 46:18 48:23 50:15,16 553:4 557:12 558:19 Respecting 185:20 restore 249:6 245:12 50:17,19,20 51:18,21 563:6,7 568:10,18,23 respective 22:16 restored 311:12,14,15 retroactively 276:5 52:6 64:14 68:7 87:1,2 569:15,16 571:15,17 respects 531:12 626:25 retroactivity 268:10

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 44 retrofit 50:19,24 51:18 244:17,18 245:2,16 522:14 roadways 562:20 564:2 runaway 250:16,23 52:6 251:13,18 253:21 rework 316:13 Roaks 10:1 444:6,6 257:17 retrofitted 396:5 258:16,17,18 263:24 rewrites 261:10 Robert 6:2,7 7:22 195:9 runner 556:10 return 15:15 41:6,16 264:25 265:2,14,18,20 rewritten 603:13 195:9 201:22,22 206:1 running 72:4 79:19,24 118:25 241:18 243:12 265:23,25 266:4,4,15 RFI 398:3,9 206:1,12 223:8,8 154:25 260:11 395:13 274:2 278:20,20 266:17,20,20,23,23 Richard 5:4 8:2 9:25 260:2,2 270:23,23 runs 161:11 395:15 280:16 285:19 287:13 267:10 273:3,25 275:9 10:22 158:6,16 161:21 317:5,5 335:7,7 469:17 291:25 343:21 361:17 276:13 277:5 293:23 161:23 162:1 167:14 442:13,15,16 451:20 Runyon 4:7 107:8,15,17 399:22 421:6 577:6 294:17,20 295:5 329:15,15 330:10,12 451:22,23 631:9,11,12 108:9 110:25 111:2 608:16 609:9 610:5,17 296:16 304:6,11 306:2 340:16,16 341:3,3 635:4,6,7 117:13 118:7 returned 283:11 297:15 317:2 321:10 323:3,6 342:19 347:25,25 Robert's 334:1 rural 201:23,24 202:9 381:17 323:21 326:3,6 330:19 525:17,17 robust 57:3 141:22 rush 151:20,22 returning 42:1 347:13 331:7 337:5 338:23 Ridge 30:15 531:5 rushed 152:12 223:23 476:8 340:19,25 351:19 ridiculous 436:15 robust' 141:23 RV 538:5,7 539:10,14 returns 253:17 272:25 352:10 353:3,4,9 right 39:7 44:12 49:11 rock 172:24 540:1,2,14,15,16 379:1 356:17,18 361:18 74:10 75:17 77:6,11 Rodgers 7:19 315:25,25 541:5 543:13,17,21 reuse 418:17 362:11,12,16 371:4,5 77:13,14 78:15,22 329:3,3 410:15,15 544:10,11 revealed 382:22 371:21,23 379:3 93:2 163:24 166:17 427:7,7 524:19,19 RVs 543:18 reverse 295:7 547:11 400:22 401:2 409:2,3 168:25 187:21 189:15 587:21,21 592:10,10 Ryan 7:1 9:7 283:15,15 reversed 531:15 558:12 411:6,11 413:11,13,23 190:24 192:5 196:1,3 595:15,15 626:7,7 405:3,3 reversing 393:15 414:9 421:8,25 422:2 196:22 202:24,25 Rodrigo 10:7 460:18,18 revert 218:13 423:14,17 424:5,21,23 206:23 207:6,10 473:9,9 S review 22:21 23:1 24:9 427:11 428:2,20,22 209:13 216:23 224:2 Rogers 11:7 602:18,19 S 2:1 88:21 165:25 186:3 430:12 443:9 466:19 224:12 226:15 247:9 602:22,22 607:6 Sadly 394:7 242:25 265:16,24 493:25 494:2 495:20 249:9 255:18,20 256:5 612:24 615:7,9,9 SAE 299:4 547:6 551:22 266:11,16 310:21,23 500:22 501:3,18,20 258:1 264:5 286:11 Roland 2:21 26:23,23,25 551:24 552:4,8 556:19 310:23 313:16 342:17 504:5 511:21,23 514:6 287:5 289:21 290:8 27:20 563:13,24 567:6 414:3,12,19 415:3 514:18,21,24 519:21 315:10 332:21 334:6 role 21:17 23:16 24:1 569:17,17 571:4 575:4 417:17,19 425:20 520:2 522:2,4 526:12 346:9 369:11 376:22 201:11 562:20 576:15 579:18 496:10 499:18,21 528:2,5,14,15 529:20 393:18 394:13 402:19 roles 569:13 SAE/NFPA 561:16 576:3 514:25,25 515:8 516:5 529:25 535:16 536:11 405:16 417:10 440:11 roll 621:2 safe 34:8 122:5 142:22 530:22 531:8,11,15 536:17 537:18,21 469:5 474:24 477:25 roof 409:17 152:24 178:23 186:11 549:9 584:18 597:12 538:23 540:6 541:2,11 482:13 489:11 514:11 room 12:10 13:4 16:19 202:11 203:14 243:10 638:6 647:25 541:17 542:12 544:7 517:20 527:17 530:20 35:22 74:18 78:2 243:11 252:14,17 reviewed 14:25 135:20 545:20 546:19,20,23 567:21 589:5 599:3 93:23 164:24 192:10 283:7 286:5 295:17 226:7 243:6 266:5 546:24 550:9,23 610:22 613:5 619:23 192:25 203:3 258:25 303:11,23,24,25 348:6 296:14 307:9 415:18 555:23,24 556:22,23 654:23 657:20 279:11,16,19 313:19 357:5 369:9 406:2 416:10 434:18 490:21 557:3 560:20 566:13 right.' 390:13 364:1 377:25 388:7,21 418:16 474:13 482:10 522:25 523:23 549:10 566:14 578:7 584:9,11 Right?' 505:20 398:17 413:2 509:10 513:8,16 518:17 585:6 590:15 594:11 587:16 588:25 589:7 rightly 248:18 547:15 592:6 605:12 618:15 562:20 570:14,15,17 625:10 638:22 589:20,23 592:20 rights 622:5 644:4 651:2 reviewing 22:9 23:24 593:1,21,23 595:23 rigorous 167:7,9 201:8 rooms 260:7 279:10,22 safeguarding 179:6 reviews 153:18 596:4,19,22 599:5,12 rise 58:9 111:22 154:15 280:7 297:24 298:23 revise 440:10 600:3,4,6,7 601:12,12 290:24 309:4 319:17 rose 491:3 safely 164:5 190:19,21 revised 243:18 326:5 603:10,10,12,13 605:3 331:1 349:13 367:22 round 360:3 658:24 214:6 245:11 304:2 554:13 618:11 605:6 608:14 611:11 404:3 416:20 426:20 routine 207:10 469:14 483:5 550:13 revising 281:11 611:12,18,19 617:24 498:1 513:25 591:15 routinely 149:9 560:16 570:20 571:19 revision 22:7,13,19 618:1,2 624:21,23 risers 630:9 row 407:13 602:7 603:5 652:12 42:20 43:22 53:15,17 627:11,17 637:8,10 rises 57:5 368:3 RRC 193:16 safer 180:10 247:16 54:1,4 64:22 65:6 67:8 638:21 639:20 640:1 rising 430:6 490:9 rule 307:15 613:21 248:2,19 249:7 282:25 67:22 69:6 85:19 90:9 641:21 642:7,7 645:14 risk 34:6 80:10,10 107:8 rules 14:2,2,18 66:12,13 283:3 288:13 290:1 93:16 99:1 107:21 650:4,9 156:19 186:5,14 145:17,19 206:20 382:13 460:14 120:12 121:3,6,10 revisions 22:3,23 24:22 187:20 188:18,20,23 227:17,17 228:9,10,23 safeties 288:25 124:18 125:1,21,24 43:24 44:2 85:21,23 189:2 200:1,14,15,24 228:23 229:11,12 safety 12:12,13 20:20,23 131:13,24 133:7 107:23 108:2 120:14 214:13 316:8 363:8 264:17,17 300:5 340:9 26:11 27:3,5 29:25 138:20,23 142:17 120:16 133:9,11 145:2 372:14,14 387:21 340:9 480:19,19 481:1 30:2,19 31:6 32:20 143:11,17 144:25 145:3 146:25 147:4 397:8 410:24,25 481:1 516:6,17 521:4 33:5,6,19,25 34:1,3,18 146:23 147:18 149:2 158:22,24 169:21,23 441:11 442:1 448:4 521:4,19,19 523:5 35:7,8 49:19 50:14 149:15 155:9,20 157:1 177:6,8 205:17 221:4 risks 189:13 246:11 537:6,6 547:17 548:3 56:16 63:16 122:2 157:12 158:20 159:10 226:4,6 266:10,13 445:8 549:22 551:14 559:22 142:14 150:17 153:4 159:12 160:21 166:16 277:11 287:16 293:25 River 184:7 560:10 573:20 574:11 153:14 155:16 161:14 167:11,23 169:19 294:1 296:14 319:7,12 riveted 405:10 574:11 585:10 590:20 163:17 165:6,23 170:11,13 175:11,23 353:10 361:20 362:17 road 132:16 133:5,10 594:15,16 597:16 172:21 173:4 177:21 177:4 179:11 180:1 414:5,14 434:15,22 140:2 319:23 330:3 604:6 625:14 638:12 178:13,14,20,24 179:5 183:5 191:18 205:19 438:4 549:9,12 559:8 357:12 471:18 562:23 run 40:2 88:3 188:20 179:22,24 180:2,6 216:7 241:2,5,21,22 revolved 369:1 564:20,20 565:6,7 374:25 376:8 469:21 181:6 183:13,14 241:24 242:4,10,14,23 rewired 369:18 roadkill 653:5 490:15 626:20 184:19 185:19 186:3 243:1,4,5 244:12,16 reworded 425:11 512:16 roadmap 180:14 run-throughs 151:21 187:22 188:11,21

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 45

189:2,25 194:16 196:8 90:20 93:2 109:3,13 549:9 596:6,8 599:15,16 138:24,25 142:17 199:9 201:6 202:23 110:12,14,15 114:6 Scott 7:11 11:2 302:8,8 604:24 611:21,23 143:11,17 144:14,24 203:10,23,23,23,24 116:22 117:2 121:23 535:21,21,24 536:2 617:12 624:9,10 145:2 146:11,22,25 205:17,22 209:6 127:1,9 134:11 142:10 549:14,16,16 556:13 627:19,22,24 630:4 147:17,23,25 150:22 212:11 213:4,15,23,25 142:22,25 165:11 556:16,16 557:7,7 633:15,17 636:19,21 154:2 157:1,12 158:8 214:12 215:23 219:16 170:25 192:23 197:24 559:15,17,17 561:3,3 640:3,5 643:13,15 158:19,22 159:10,12 224:24 242:7 243:24 204:22 206:17 231:23 564:13 569:24 570:1,1 657:3,4 659:4,6 159:13,14,15 165:8,23 247:23 260:13 273:21 250:1,10 251:14 574:2,2,19,19,22 screens 19:2 37:15,16 166:15 167:11,23 273:23 286:9 290:3,9 260:20 270:7 288:25 575:1,1,12,12 577:21 42:21 74:4 75:12 169:7,18,20 170:10,13 295:15 298:12,20 302:2 312:1,13 331:15 577:23,23 579:5 77:18 78:12 121:7 170:14,15,16 175:11 299:17 301:2 303:20 337:25 414:1 472:20 SCR 538:11 481:21 557:5 636:8 175:23 176:18 177:3,5 309:7 316:4,8,18,19 489:23 509:20,24 screen 18:13 19:3,6,8,11 screws 426:11 178:4,5,6,7 183:5 316:19 319:3 324:1,3 517:10 533:10 543:12 38:1,21,22 40:17 41:3 scroll 41:11 209:24 184:24 191:18 209:21 327:21 329:11 335:1 576:18 636:3 41:4 43:10 52:24 53:1 253:7 272:15 291:12 209:22,23 212:17,18 336:8 343:13,18,20,23 Sazza 505:12 53:6,8 60:6 65:8,10,16 320:23 361:6 370:15 212:19 213:21 220:19 345:5,15 351:13 scale 182:16 195:20 65:17 67:23 70:17,18 378:13 399:12 420:21 221:5,8,9,13 223:13 357:17,23 380:11,22 200:23 243:22 246:1,4 75:12 76:11 77:1,4 449:17 475:11 503:19 226:6 231:9,11 232:14 382:14 385:6,16,17 246:11 247:21 248:19 78:4,6,11,19,20,21 526:1 545:7 555:11 232:15 241:2,5,6,7,8 389:19 392:16,16 249:1 250:2,10,14,19 84:12,14,19,21 85:12 566:1 572:16 583:9 241:21 242:4,10,23 393:7 406:22 410:20 250:23 251:11,15 92:1,2,8,9 95:4,5,10 659:3 243:4 244:12,17 245:2 410:24,25,25 411:1,1 252:5,16 257:15 95:11 97:20,22 98:3,4 scrolling 210:20 263:19 245:15 251:13,18 442:6 444:9 446:13 289:25 99:19,20,25 100:1 305:7 253:4,5,6,21 255:2,3,4 460:10,11 462:10 scanty 126:25 101:14,16,21,22 scrutinized 244:15 258:16,18 263:23 469:2 474:2 483:9 scary 490:17 103:11,13,17,18 106:9 SDI 88:9 264:1,6,25 265:2,2,3,4 515:6 525:13 540:14 scattered 184:11 106:11,16,17 107:15 se 519:2 265:14,20,22,23,24 540:18 541:1,6 542:2 SCBAs 154:4 116:21 117:21,22 seal 441:16 442:21,22 266:9,14,20,23 267:16 544:9,14 547:25 548:7 scenario 438:11 118:2,3 120:5 125:4,5 443:5 447:25 448:24 270:8,19 271:15 272:9 548:14 550:1,22 552:1 schedule 22:17 221:6,7 125:13 132:2,3 133:1 449:3 272:12,13,14 273:3 552:9 553:4,6 557:16 267:19 270:8 137:10 138:6,7 143:20 sealant 447:5,8 274:3,4,5 275:7,9 557:17,24 559:6 Schmidt 11:2 556:13,16 143:21 144:18 146:15 sealants 448:13 277:11 290:23 291:5,6 561:11,23 562:1,18,24 556:16 557:7,7 561:3 157:14,16 158:13 sealed 257:1 445:2,3 291:7,8,9,10,11 562:24 563:10,16,17 561:3 574:2,2,19,20 167:25 168:2 169:11 447:1 292:25 293:22,24 564:1,4 568:25 571:22 574:22 575:1,2,12,13 175:25 176:2,22 sealing 440:7,20,24 294:17,19,20,21,22 571:24 575:22 576:1,7 579:21 197:22,24 198:5 441:24,25 442:20 297:12 299:9,14 576:9 586:13 587:5,25 Schneider 28:1 316:1,1 199:20 211:18,20 445:14 447:2 451:12 300:18 304:6,11 588:1,2,2 592:4,14,15 316:2,5,12,14,16 212:3,4 226:22,24 seals 444:17 445:1,9 305:20 306:2,4,5,6,25 592:15,16 595:18 329:4 367:21 374:16 227:4,5 240:14,15,20 446:14 447:15 448:4 311:21 317:2 320:17 598:23 601:25 605:15 385:22 410:16 418:12 240:21 253:23,25 Searles 6:11 212:8,8,21 320:20,21,21,22 321:9 606:1,1 607:11 610:21 418:14 421:24 422:8 254:16,18 263:7,9,14 212:24,24 213:1,3 323:2,5,6,7,9,10 326:3 611:7 616:12,20 617:1 427:8 497:9 518:6,8 263:16 273:6,6,8,13 224:23,23 273:19,19 326:6,7 330:19 331:6 622:3 626:11 627:3 524:20,20 537:15 273:15 289:23 292:3,5 274:7,10,10,13 277:5 337:5 338:22 340:19 647:4 649:25 650:24 544:1 587:22 592:11 292:10,12 293:4 296:9 Searles' 225:23 340:21,22,23,24 651:1,4,16,17 595:16 598:5,24 626:8 304:13,15,20,21 Seat 130:9 342:16 348:22,24 sake 228:2 school 358:8,9 394:16 305:20,21 308:17 seated 16:19 75:22,25 351:19 352:10 353:3,8 Salt 184:7 394:18 321:12,14,19,20 76:2,24 77:7 407:8 353:11,12,13 355:14 Salvador 460:19 sciences 525:5 330:21 338:25 339:2,7 seats 19:19 73:3 119:17 356:17 360:23 361:3,4 sample 37:15 scientists 506:5,11 339:9 349:16 352:13 119:17 192:14 230:14 361:5,18 362:11,15,18 San 12:9 189:8 387:3 scope 87:17 90:7 160:15 352:14,19,21 353:24 230:19,23 362:19,20,21 365:6,16 Saporita 3:5 30:12,14 179:19 183:18 191:14 361:23,24 362:4,6 second 23:11 38:11,17 370:12,13,14 371:4,21 satisfy 528:21 191:15,19 194:15,18 371:8,9,14,16 379:5,7 39:8 42:20 43:6,22,24 371:23,24,25 372:1 saturation 89:11 204:19 209:5 213:7,9 379:13,15 400:2,4,9 45:7,8,9,11 53:15,17 378:10,11,12 379:3 save 47:12 65:25 335:2 217:11,15 219:4 400:10 402:19 410:12 53:18,18,19 54:4,8 380:1,2,3 381:13,20 369:9 385:8 389:10 220:16 222:12 225:6 411:14,15,20,21 64:22 65:6 67:1,3,8,22 381:21,23 391:12 562:21 660:1 226:13,14 232:1 421:10,12,17,18 424:7 68:5,7 69:6 73:2 81:4 398:25 399:8,9,10,11 saved 519:6 233:15 235:4,15 236:1 424:9,14,15 428:4,6 81:5,6 85:8,8,18,21 400:22 401:2,2,3,4 saves 49:8 377:17 236:11 237:18 238:3,7 428:11,12 430:14,16 86:13,14,15 91:7 407:22 408:3,20 409:3 saving 384:15 588:20 238:10,23 239:4 268:9 430:21,22 439:8,10,15 92:19,20,21 95:21,22 411:6,11 413:11,13,14 saw 199:7 277:6 417:7 279:3 295:11,25 296:2 439:16 450:5,7,12,13 95:23 98:13,14,16 413:15,16,20 420:17 530:24 581:6 296:14 297:2,6,10,19 453:2,4,9,10 457:19 100:11,12,13 102:7,8 420:18,19,20 421:8,25 saying 185:9 186:23 298:7,21 303:15 457:21 464:6,8 475:25 102:10 104:3,4,5 422:2,3,4,5 423:14,17 207:18 222:16 225:2,4 325:19 404:8 433:25 476:2 479:19,20 107:10,20,23 108:19 424:5,21,23,24,25 235:15 270:12 286:20 434:7 436:5 517:15 493:12,14 501:5,7 108:20,21 111:4 120:1 425:1 427:11 428:2,20 286:25 288:5,11 348:8 534:7 547:13 548:24 504:8,9 511:7,9 514:4 120:12,14 121:3,6,10 428:22,23,24,25 429:1 351:14 404:6 487:3 549:3 550:17 551:9 520:4,6 526:15,16 121:11,12,13 125:1,20 430:12 431:7,8,9,10 509:3 561:15 614:20 554:10,13,20 559:5 536:20,21 545:23,24 125:23,24,25 126:1,2 435:13 440:1,2,2,3 623:16 560:6,6 562:14 564:16 556:2,4 566:16,18 128:7 129:5,9 131:13 441:14 443:13 449:14 says 50:20 60:1,8,11 656:8 573:5,7 583:23,25 131:24 132:21 133:6,9 449:15,16 451:2,3,4,5 69:12 81:19 88:7 scopes 162:23 296:13 589:9,11 593:3,5 134:2,3,4 138:20,22 454:7,8,9 458:10,11

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 46

458:12 464:21 465:15 263:11 272:21 273:10 276:6 512:6 558:18 SELV 650:25 148:5 150:8 151:13,23 465:16,16,17 466:18 291:17 292:6 304:17 559:5 577:10 618:14 semantic 611:6 152:5,13 153:22 154:7 475:8,9,10 476:19,20 321:4,16 339:4 352:16 648:19 semi-complex 467:24 156:5,16 160:19 476:21,23 477:5 361:12 362:1 370:21 sector.' 213:12 send 94:13,14 285:11 163:15,23 165:19 481:14,15,16 493:25 371:11 378:20 379:9 secure 188:5 587:4 179:7,9 196:7 202:1,6 494:2,3,3,4,5,7 495:20 398:15 399:17 400:6 security 28:25 153:9 sending 443:23 259:8 268:1 289:17 499:18 500:21 501:2 411:17 421:1,14 185:1 232:4 236:19 senior 177:25 397:13 316:14 322:22 323:14 501:20,21,22,23,24 424:11 428:8 430:18 336:9 sense 164:18,23 192:5 324:21 333:14 335:14 503:16,17,18 504:5,21 439:12 449:21 450:9 see 14:9 37:15,16,23 232:4 236:19 312:15 337:11 357:25 441:1,6 504:22,23 511:21,23 453:6 457:22 464:10 40:14 60:6 67:21,23 336:9 346:15 485:15 447:19 466:25 505:2 511:24,25,25 512:1 475:16 476:4 479:22 71:15 78:24,24 80:6 senses 260:24 532:3 568:19 601:3,4 514:21,24 516:3 493:15 501:9 503:24 83:17,25 101:5 130:17 sensible 296:2 601:10 602:1 603:17 519:20 520:2 522:2,4 504:11 511:11 520:8 152:12 161:7 163:7 sensing 396:10 607:14,16,24 609:13 522:5,6,7 524:9 526:5,18 536:23 185:10 199:10 205:23 sent 154:19 273:24 609:14,17,24,25 525:23,24,24,25 545:12 546:1 555:16 220:20 221:14 224:14 276:12 335:14 441:22 610:10,23 611:3,6 526:12 528:2,4,5,6,7,8 556:5 566:6,20 572:21 248:12 257:6,12 258:3 512:15 613:3,8,12,20,23 528:9,15 529:6,25 573:9 583:14 584:1 258:8 269:10 305:10 sentence 233:5 311:11 614:5,12,15,19,22 531:9 533:7 534:24 589:13 593:7 596:10 306:13 307:20,24 311:21 312:12 326:7 615:21,22 616:3,4,6,8 536:11,17 537:17,20 599:18 611:25 624:12 312:25 324:20 329:23 326:14,23 341:10,13 616:15,21,24 618:8 537:21,22,23 538:2,23 628:1 633:19 636:23 333:20 336:6,21 347:11 444:14 499:5 621:2 622:2,3 623:2,3 541:11,17 544:7 545:4 640:7 643:17 659:11 338:13 347:3,8 349:15 536:4,5 610:16,25 623:4,5,10,16,17,21 545:5,6,20 546:8,18 Secretary 2:4,10 20:7,11 350:7 357:15 360:11 617:15 618:11 622:20 645:2,9 646:13,17 546:22,24,25 547:1 208:16 273:21 384:2 363:1,14 364:9 368:17 623:2,7 646:1 653:11 550:9,23 555:8,9,10 491:15 368:19 372:9 382:4 sentences 608:2 serviceable 495:12 555:23 556:22,24,25 section 15:13,22 17:24 391:22 393:10 400:13 sentiments 423:5 497:1,19 500:12 557:3 559:8 560:20 17:25 18:1,4 36:24 406:14,16 408:5,21,25 separate 83:8 189:18 502:25 563:25 565:23,24,25 45:19 56:4 57:23 410:12 425:10 452:1 197:18 248:11,14 services 25:22 31:11,12 566:12 567:18,19,20 59:15,16 61:1 66:13 460:6 461:4 466:9,10 392:19 448:1 459:16 80:10,10 149:22 150:4 567:21,21 569:3 82:19 88:7 94:13 483:16 492:8 494:17 569:15 597:3 601:3 164:13 185:18 316:12 572:13,14,15 575:8,9 105:6,14 115:22 495:25 506:25 526:25 614:7 615:25 404:6 408:14 495:25 575:10 581:16,17 124:18 173:11,12 533:9,9 539:15 554:11 separating 466:13 601:23 651:20 582:9,10 583:6,7,8 174:3 213:8 227:17 556:11 562:4 581:7 separation 205:4 216:10 servicing 312:2,4,7,9,21 584:9,11,12,13,14 228:10,23 229:12 582:14 588:25 605:3 250:4 349:7 438:19 318:9,14 587:16 588:24 589:7 232:11 237:14 242:13 613:4,5 623:15 630:3 separations 185:21 serving 23:25 24:24 29:3 589:20,23,24,25 590:1 242:14,21 250:3 630:5 648:18 658:25 separators 112:3 29:5,21 34:2 296:23 592:19 593:1,21,23,24 258:18,19,22 264:18 seeing 37:21 40:12 sequence 172:21 300:4 354:17,19 593:25 594:1 595:22 266:8,14 295:21 297:2 52:17 59:2 69:5 70:7 series 248:9 551:12 596:4,19,21,22,23,24 297:23 302:12 304:25 84:3,23 99:8 101:8 serious 56:21 276:9 session 14:3,7 15:8 17:2 599:5,12 600:3,6,8,9 309:19,20 315:1,2 106:24 118:6 124:18 281:17 385:17 397:12 17:20 37:9 41:15,21 600:10 601:12 603:10 318:12 323:18 327:4 124:23 131:21 132:10 398:6 469:2 472:18 42:1,3 43:9 118:11 603:13 605:2 610:16 334:8 340:10 343:5 138:1 143:14 144:4 515:12 550:2 622:8 119:18 120:4 132:25 611:10,18 612:15,16 345:16,24 346:25 157:9,24 168:10 176:9 Seriously 582:18 144:17 158:12 168:13 612:17 617:24 618:1 434:22 436:23,25 225:20 239:16 292:14 Serra 311:5 328:4 344:7 169:10 176:21 230:14 618:22 622:19 623:2 440:10,10,14 442:2 367:18 394:19 430:6 351:4 403:2 413:10,18 293:3 339:17 413:1 624:21,23,24,25 625:1 445:1,16,21 451:12 479:10 503:14 510:17 418:25 427:14 456:1 550:5 626:21 627:10,17 452:3 456:12,13 573:15,16 639:19 468:16 481:10,24 sessions 214:18 215:8 628:14,15,16,17 459:15,16 460:7,12,13 659:21 489:7 492:20 499:10 412:1 634:14,15,16 637:10 480:19 481:1 486:24 seek 127:13 456:22 514:16 524:8 637:7,16 set 19:23 49:13 184:19 637:11,12,13,18 486:25 498:11 516:16 458:17 627:6 serve 20:3 23:23 24:12 206:7,8 223:25 278:5 638:21 639:20 640:1 517:1 521:4,19 522:13 seeking 184:9 189:23 27:1 202:3 235:18 286:5 315:14 417:21 640:20,21,22 642:3,7 532:12,14,15 537:6 201:15 440:7,23 308:5 359:19 365:24 467:4,4 470:17 471:10 642:11 644:14,15,16 538:24,25 539:1 459:13 467:19 375:12 387:6,12 388:2 471:15 487:12 489:19 647:19 543:22 546:7 547:13 seeks 306:23 386:21 388:5 389:9 516:6 571:7,13 576:3 secondaries 346:4 547:14 548:9 558:18 557:9 575:15 576:9 served 21:25 25:2 27:15 605:25 616:3 404:12 573:20 574:12,17 653:17 29:4,22 31:9 32:9 33:1 sets 315:6 467:5,5 seconded 477:11 594:7 601:21,22 602:5 Seeliger 11:17 651:25 34:19 123:7 159:21 setting 49:14 431:20 secondly 187:17 267:23 602:8 605:5,22 606:2 652:3,7,7,11 255:11 437:8 489:19 336:20 606:18,20,21 607:23 seen 111:10 187:16 serves 24:25 25:5,23 settle 610:9 seconds 38:8 40:24 53:3 609:22 618:12 619:13 188:8 256:16,17 257:4 26:9,16 27:5 28:2,21 seven 65:3 309:24 506:1 65:12 69:18,21,25 619:15,16 622:11 357:6 359:2 390:6 29:15 30:15 31:4 32:5 severe 135:11 70:2,20 84:16 92:4,5 623:18 629:19 637:8 394:9 483:10 489:20 32:19 33:11,23 34:7 sewer 446:2 448:4 95:7 97:24 99:22 642:22,23,25 648:14 505:6 571:24 34:13,17 131:4 384:1 shack 510:22 527:18 101:18 103:14 106:13 649:13,15,17 652:15 sees 466:8 service 25:11,12,14,16 shack' 510:2 117:24 125:9 132:5 section's 444:13,13 SEIA 617:8 26:2,4,20,22 27:21 shaft 630:10 632:14 138:9 143:23 157:18 sectional 648:19 selected 437:10 28:14,17 29:9 30:4,9 shaking 505:22 168:4 176:4 210:24 sections 15:17 17:23 selection 129:20 147:1 30:23 31:21,23 32:1 shall' 83:7 211:22 227:1 230:24 24:10 102:17 114:24 self-certification 568:15 33:22 54:12,14,16,18 Shapiro 4:16 142:19,19 240:17 253:13 254:13 183:5 258:16 268:10 sell 522:19 552:13 60:15 128:25 147:20 369:16,16 504:17,17

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 47

504:25,25 508:12,12 32:13 33:12,14,16,18 88:13 91:20 94:19,23 slightly 222:24 360:15 sorry 44:24 51:24 79:22 518:22,22 signals 646:8 655:14 99:1,13 103:6 104:12 small 87:15 88:15,17,22 105:3,10 106:23 114:9 share 19:16 20:21 signed 14:21 145:15 105:8 106:4 113:5 89:1,14,19 90:4 91:9 125:12 126:14 137:12 256:15,19 386:6 significant 21:9 22:8 117:6 121:4 137:25 96:15 100:25 104:15 138:17 141:22 146:8 shared 200:20 486:16 150:15 173:4 201:10 143:13 147:21 158:16 192:2 246:9 262:12 161:22 174:23 193:8 Sharon 184:7,7 187:13 213:22 232:8 242:1,3 166:14,21 174:25 279:11,14,22 389:25 197:10 206:12 212:13 sheath 482:3,9 488:15 242:9 244:14,21 263:2 332:16 351:20 390:1 403:7 410:3 213:9 236:6,8 238:22 528:22 531:17 533:14 246:11,23 250:8 410:8 416:1 511:17 445:25 468:25 518:1 239:2 240:1 246:3 534:1 252:12 275:17,24 520:14 556:13 567:10 518:24 580:13 262:2 299:19 313:10 sheet 529:6 533:17 284:21 309:6,7 310:1 567:10 644:7,9 smaller 91:8 167:4 246:6 323:1 330:12 387:10 shelf 568:12 310:5,18 327:21 sit 76:4 154:15 185:7 251:11,22 354:19 400:24 448:15 450:22 shift 188:12 256:17 344:10 346:5 383:2 204:1 256:7,8 317:15 468:23 457:6 462:20 467:7 ships 87:4 89:10,16 91:9 385:25 387:20 388:2 393:24,25 649:23,25 smallest 68:8 201:1 468:12 477:2,4,6 shock 366:5 368:16 417:4 466:22 486:19 site 175:19 259:9 507:1 Smart 172:9 174:20 496:5 507:7 520:19 377:5 559:2 568:8 580:3,11 508:21 513:6 540:17 SME 187:10 221:24 530:17 534:23 535:4 shocks 360:14 375:17 significantly 64:14 190:9 569:1 618:20,22 Smith 10:24 530:6,8,9 537:12 574:22 576:4 shop 565:3 310:11 344:25 469:24 sites 195:19 214:5 217:7 530:16,19,21 588:16 593:20 603:21 short 78:9 109:17 557:14 558:8 575:20 217:7,12,12,13,21,24 smoke 87:2,2 88:2,6,8,9 620:1 621:23 627:25 394:10 620:24 576:25 605:18 218:2 245:9,13,14 88:9,23 89:4,8,11 90:3 634:5 658:12 shortcomings 140:23 signs 17:20,21 35:17 sitting 20:10,14 203:8,9 91:2,13,16 96:17,24 sort 19:23 285:25 506:19 shorted 375:1 silent 319:6 256:10 459:12 97:8 100:21 104:10,16 sorts 222:13 223:2 shortening 378:19 silos 112:3 situation 52:4 56:21 105:15,25 123:11 sought 442:19 540:23 shortly 19:20 71:16 72:4 silver 188:24 256:20 58:9,23 64:4 96:19 445:25 448:6 486:7 sound 13:2 18:12 35:20 203:5 similar 68:3 96:11 165:10 205:13 222:1 487:1 488:18 513:13 505:19 514:9 518:2 shot 314:21 123:22 163:7 179:18 222:11 350:21 351:11 smoked 96:7 519:15 shotgun 188:18 183:7 198:25 214:15 369:23 432:14 491:24 smoking 394:10 sounding 164:17 should' 83:6 286:6 312:7 322:18 situations 59:20 184:25 smurf 489:12 491:21,23 sounds 187:15 505:11 show 19:3,6,8 34:21 354:1,18 389:22,22 350:15 392:20 snacks 118:12 168:15 source 49:9 131:18 128:1 149:5 221:1 405:5 407:18 413:20 six 31:23 48:19 49:17 sneezes 534:16 535:9 208:18 301:5 354:1 286:8 363:7 523:11 471:7 491:2,6 502:2 56:14 62:2 63:14 Society 64:11 294:15 386:19 529:14 551:17 showed 377:6 499:17 516:3 568:12 637:18 93:23 104:25 105:1 295:3 546:16 551:25 553:25 554:12 557:11 shown 113:17 121:7 similarly 123:16 111:20 113:6 115:3,12 socket 387:16 563:4 564:25 569:18 126:8,25 136:23 Simmons 10:10 471:24 140:15 142:17,17 soft- 486:9 575:17 608:16 618:4,5 148:21 243:1 257:16 471:25 472:4,8,12,14 151:11 155:8,10 160:4 soft-jacketed 488:3 618:6,23 620:16 266:18 270:17 275:6 472:16 543:8,9 175:9 185:23 193:1 software 571:10 sourced 652:12 325:23 353:24 354:7 simple 69:11 82:12 93:1 237:24 245:19 268:21 Sokol 541:1,2,9 sources 87:23 163:12 363:23 365:15 414:14 121:18 139:6 236:17 280:24 299:20 333:13 solar 285:8 600:19 295:23 441:4 446:2 608:14 288:11 351:23,25 339:13 341:16 354:1 604:14 618:6 531:23 600:17,19 shows 24:15 126:10,12 375:18 381:14,20 369:15 387:1 392:2 sold 90:24,25 91:5 603:1 618:21,24,25 126:13,15,16 190:14 387:11,13 388:12 400:13 411:6 419:17 393:12 619:4,6 229:19 380:17 604:23 519:13 620:25 641:2 423:18 436:14,18 sole 16:9 36:14 234:2 South 144:11 169:5 617:11 simplest 507:5 509:4 470:1 471:22 497:22 547:20 388:19 shut 358:1 579:25 simplicity 111:7 498:20 509:14 516:9 solely 129:19 234:2 Southern 177:20 203:5 580:15 simplify 69:8,22 70:3 518:20 533:21 543:6 327:6 203:17 205:8 228:16 shutting 329:21 372:12 603:13 550:6 553:7 568:8,23 solid 172:24 276:14 247:6 side 62:15,16 179:7 simplifying 434:21 613:21 615:25 626:15 solidly 403:10 Southwest 444:6 216:22 287:4 307:13 simply 23:4 59:25 83:5 653:24 654:5 655:3 Solids 108:1 space 34:8 82:11 89:21 396:12 402:19 415:24 90:10 98:21 189:24 six-inch 447:13 solution 513:8 579:3 91:4 200:13 260:10 540:14 541:5 582:25 359:10 380:13 385:2 size 81:15 89:5 200:25 solutions 53:13 170:9 261:2,7 274:18 343:7 607:17 609:6 610:7,19 385:11 422:17 432:15 216:10 241:19 242:15 245:21 351:23 392:25 343:17 344:11,20 sides 356:2 365:3 457:3 486:13 488:20 242:20 243:12,23 406:16 463:3 650:3 346:1 368:1,1,4 381:22 402:17 585:21 499:19 542:3 560:17 247:10,14,22 250:4 solve 187:11 344:9,10 552:10,15 630:20 591:6 594:23 603:19 611:2 641:6 282:7 288:16,23 420:5 space.' 341:12 sidestep 611:5 653:16 386:15 447:12 469:10 somebody 81:12 104:24 spaces 112:7 279:21 Siemens 172:9 174:20 single 21:10 86:25 89:20 469:12 472:20,25 142:21 195:24 239:25 368:9 629:24 541:23 188:13 241:24 248:11 610:17,22 611:1,1,1,3 260:22 331:4 333:7,11 Spanish 509:5 sign 12:24 14:17 44:19 250:21,22 307:15 sized 88:17 289:25 376:7 394:11 408:6 spanning 23:5 45:19,23 46:2,14,19 310:10 341:13 342:4 611:2,8 412:22 413:1 419:9 spare 447:17 46:20,23,24 47:12,13 355:23 374:24 380:9 sizes 129:18 244:12,20 505:2 506:15,16,20,25 speak 18:9 111:22 47:14,15,17,20,22,25 391:4,5 401:20,22 249:2 410:3 494:10 506:25 510:1 140:17 147:17 155:13 48:1,2,13,15 49:8,21 404:15 491:5 617:16 sketchy 127:24 128:8 somebody's 395:21,23 173:13 189:13 197:9 50:4,16,20 51:21 623:19 skin 541:9 538:15 197:11 203:2 209:20 474:21 sink 354:1 355:18 Skip 8:7 346:23,23 somewhat 155:23 226:10 246:3 253:2 Sign' 336:4 Sir 44:21,24 45:15 48:17 skipped 357:9 son 185:11 267:16 283:24 290:20 signal 13:1 35:19 69:20 49:18 51:5,12 52:16 skirt 275:13 soon 37:16 154:9 156:18 291:1 296:24 299:5 259:7 466:21 587:4 53:16 57:14 61:24 sleeve 494:16 497:1,10 602:20 603:4 300:1 302:11 315:3 646:24 650:24 63:3 64:8 66:20 67:6 497:19 499:2 500:9,11 sooner 258:3 289:9 320:16 326:21 336:15 signaling 29:16,19 32:12 70:10 80:8 84:6 88:11 502:4 soot 148:14 340:18 343:4 350:13

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 48

350:14 355:11 358:22 380:2 404:10 413:15 221:25 223:9,9 231:13 628:10 629:16 631:14 St 32:4 530:9,11 360:17 361:2 364:25 420:10,12 422:4 234:24 235:2 236:9 631:25 632:4,5 634:2 stability 247:17 365:12 370:10 373:10 423:20 424:25 428:24 237:8,10 238:1 239:3 634:19 635:16,20 staff 2:9 12:24,25 13:8 375:20 378:9 380:8 428:25 431:8,9 434:19 241:12 244:6 245:21 636:1 638:19 639:12 35:17,18 36:1 41:17 381:12 387:5 399:7 449:15 451:3,4 454:9 246:7 247:6 249:12,14 640:25 641:18 642:17 74:17,23 76:12 78:12 402:12 404:17 406:8 458:11 464:22,24 251:7 252:2,2 259:25 642:21,23 647:18 78:21 159:22 641:4 407:14 408:18 415:9 465:16 474:23 476:10 260:3,4 261:21,23 648:6 649:12,14 650:5 stage 20:6,10 21:14 416:5 420:15 442:17 477:13,15,18,21,25 265:8 268:20,23 270:4 652:8,23 653:1 655:6 23:14 26:6,23 27:24 449:12 451:24 455:6 478:10 481:15 494:4,5 270:25,25 272:6,9 spec 419:19,20 28:18 29:12 31:1 463:3 475:6 478:5 496:6 501:22,23 503:9 274:12 278:10,15 special 18:4 21:7,8 23:7 266:11 297:7,12 483:15 495:6 509:17 503:11 504:22 510:12 281:1 283:16 285:18 23:9,11 25:7,9 31:13 309:15 331:6 342:15 518:24 519:9 525:18 513:17 522:6 528:6,7 289:15 295:4 300:2 186:22 207:9 387:5,22 342:16 348:23 365:6 525:21 540:5 545:3 528:8 537:13,22 301:15 308:24 311:5 388:5,11 381:16,18,20 455:7 549:18 555:7 559:19 544:24 546:25 556:25 313:10 314:25 317:6 specific 115:10 149:7 496:11,17 531:8 562:12 564:13 565:13 565:24 567:19 574:5 318:24 327:25 328:4 150:10 153:7 161:14 stages 381:14 471:14 565:22 570:3 572:12 575:9 580:22 581:1,9 329:17 330:17 334:4 165:12,17 166:2 stainless 431:24 578:1 583:4,5 585:22 581:18,19,20,22,25 335:8 341:5 344:3,7 171:24 181:3 192:23 stakeholders 180:1 592:7 594:23 595:7 582:8,9,10,12,15,18 346:24 348:1 351:4 210:20 219:1 236:3,13 280:19 393:9 414:20 597:23 602:23 608:11 582:21 589:25 590:9 353:20,22 356:11,21 236:21 280:2,5 286:7 stance 247:12 617:19 620:4 625:21 590:11 593:25 596:23 358:20,21 362:24 287:7,9 341:10 405:24 stand 75:24 76:11 77:1 635:9 639:15 648:10 600:9 612:16 624:25 365:21,25 367:1 455:13 507:21 509:21 78:23 172:18 347:20 654:10,25 656:5 628:15 634:15 637:12 368:13 369:16 370:5 548:9 550:7,9 579:24 355:25 374:17 375:7 speaker 18:8 19:22 640:21 644:15 653:25 372:4 374:4,7,9 618:23 385:22 426:6 451:9 38:12,14,18,25 39:8 654:7 657:6,8,9,10,12 375:13,25 376:19 specifically 63:21 455:19 459:11 468:2 39:10,14,18,21,24,25 657:19 658:6,13,21,22 377:23 382:3,10 128:19 181:4,23 474:5 478:22 484:15 40:1,2 44:12 45:8,9 659:9,15 660:8,10 383:18 388:20 390:21 218:21,24 219:21 497:20 502:18 505:16 62:23,24,25 63:4,11 speaker's 392:7 391:1,2 396:16 402:23 238:11 257:3,19 507:17 513:2 523:18 66:2,5,6,7 67:2 70:23 speakers 2:5 62:20,22 403:2 407:8 409:12 258:18 262:10,14 539:7 581:4 585:18 70:24 71:1,2,3,4,5,6,7 70:21,22,25 118:24 413:18 416:16 418:6 284:16 287:11 295:22 591:1 594:22 600:15 71:11,13,18,19,20,21 193:19 209:22 238:15 418:25 419:20 420:9 298:22 300:19 311:19 607:5,8 658:7 72:23 73:1,4,8,10,12 253:5 254:5,8,11 423:9 426:16 427:14 333:1,1 357:21 455:11 standalone 639:6 73:13,22,24 74:2,5,6,8 272:13 281:3 320:21 430:5 433:10 435:4,10 498:13 507:20 564:15 standard 22:6 43:25 74:10,12,20,25 75:1,3 332:1 361:4 378:1 435:25 436:22,24 564:24 601:7 46:16 55:16 68:12 75:5,7,8,9,11,14,17 395:19,25 396:3,8 437:12 444:4 446:20 specifications 568:12 82:20 85:22 87:25 76:15,17,21 77:3,9,11 398:24,25 399:1,2,9 446:22 452:9,12 specificity 68:1 88:9 89:9 90:6 100:25 77:12,13,14,16,17,20 399:10 401:3,13 407:9 455:23 456:1 457:2,4 specified 197:18 102:17 104:15 107:24 77:24 78:10,14,16,17 412:2 420:18,19 440:2 457:6 460:1 461:10,19 specify 558:19 577:10 111:14 113:12,17 79:8,10,16,18,21 80:3 469:24 475:9 476:21 462:18,20 463:9,11 speed 269:18 651:19 116:9,11 118:17 80:14,17,18 81:5 477:22 503:17 510:11 467:17 468:7 470:11 spell 232:2 120:15 133:10,17 83:16 86:14 92:20 511:25 525:24 545:5 470:12 471:25 472:2 spend 22:18 554:16 134:19 139:17,19 95:22 98:14,15 100:12 555:9 572:14 581:21 472:14 474:19 478:18 621:13 140:2,21,22 141:3 102:8 104:4,23,25 582:11 583:7 584:13 478:22 481:24 484:4 spending 550:3 142:3,4,6,8,10,24 108:20 117:10 119:16 657:11,13,17,22 484:19,22 485:5,7,9 spent 308:6 394:16 145:3,16,19,21,25 121:12 125:7,25 134:3 658:19 485:12 486:2 488:11 550:6,8 570:9 578:5 146:1 147:1 149:19 138:24 145:13 147:23 speaking 17:11,14 18:10 489:7 491:11,13,16 579:8 603:8 605:20 155:3 156:3,10 159:4 159:14 166:17 170:15 47:3,8,9 49:20 56:13 492:6 497:11,15 spillage 235:14 238:16 160:12 166:9 168:19 178:5,6 193:6,11 56:16 57:18 59:14 498:24 500:1,4,5 spirit 243:7 266:7,25 169:21 170:3 171:2 197:16 198:3,6,13,15 63:16 69:1,4 83:14,21 503:5 508:9 513:20 spoke 315:16 338:4 172:25 177:6 178:21 209:15 210:4,5,6,7,11 86:18 90:15,18 92:24 514:16 516:12,23 367:2 408:24 551:8 178:23 182:15,23 210:12,14,16,17,22,25 93:22,25 94:8 96:1 517:6 518:22 524:5 620:7 184:10,17 191:8,9,12 211:3,9 212:18 229:16 97:3,6 98:9,19 99:7 528:12 532:7,11,13,22 spoken 117:14 191:17,21,25 192:10 229:20,21 230:13,18 100:7,16 101:4 102:3 533:23 534:3,25 535:5 sportsmen 88:16 96:14 192:18 194:15,20 230:21 231:10 240:6,7 102:12 104:20 105:6 535:22,25 536:2 sprawling 128:16 197:14 206:16,17 241:7 249:4 254:2,4 105:10 108:13 111:18 539:22 541:24 542:6 spray 58:3,6 209:2,9 214:21 215:2 255:3 257:24 265:3 113:8,23 115:5,18 542:17 543:9,10 544:1 spread 91:1 102:15,16 215:13,15 219:5 272:8,9 274:4 290:15 124:5 125:19 130:2 544:2,22 547:7 551:2 105:17,24 446:7,10 220:10,15,24 221:2 290:22,24 291:5,6,7,9 136:17 138:18 140:14 551:6,7,23 553:10 486:8 487:1 222:23 225:4,10,11,23 291:10 294:21 306:5 142:20 151:10,14 554:5 556:17 560:25 sprinkler 27:1,4,16,17 231:22,23,24 232:1,3 315:16 318:10 320:6,7 152:18 155:12 156:8 562:10 563:13 564:11 31:17 32:6,6 44:16 232:5,7 233:12,18 320:8,10,17 322:6,9 156:23 162:16,19 565:17 567:24 570:25 45:23 48:23 57:22 235:25 236:18,21,23 322:10,11 323:7,9 164:12 166:19 172:5,8 571:5 579:14,18 586:1 68:9 81:18 586:18,22 236:25,25 237:4,21 331:17,18,20,22,24 172:11 173:10 177:23 586:5,8 588:12,17 586:24 238:7,11,11,14,16,19 332:2,3,5,9,12,13,15 180:22,23 184:8 186:1 591:10 595:3 598:21 sprinklers 31:18 32:8 245:12 247:7,15 332:17,19,20 333:24 191:6 193:4 195:14,14 604:10,15,19 606:17 45:17 54:13,18 57:25 248:12,13 256:22 339:20 340:3,22 197:23 198:14 199:24 606:19 608:25 609:2 285:8 260:6,21 266:4 267:8 353:12 360:23 362:19 200:4,7 201:25 202:18 617:4,8 619:12,14 squirrel 188:22 267:9,10 268:11 269:1 362:20 370:7,13 206:2 208:5,11 216:25 620:22 621:21,21 SR 374:11 514:2 556:19 274:2,23 276:12,15,21 371:25 378:11 379:11 218:8,18 220:3,7 622:21,23 626:4,18 578:13,16,18,21,24 277:1,17 278:21 279:2

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 49

280:10,16 281:4 282:9 382:5 389:4 426:7 638:25 652:5 stop 331:22,24 336:22 553:2 559:6 572:2 282:12 283:5,12 472:4 538:16 544:14 statements 14:22,22 367:25 395:5 400:12 struck 473:3 494:17 284:20,22 285:15 551:4 621:18 654:2 127:24 160:23 220:21 400:15 436:16 567:12 539:9 288:5,6,23 289:20 standpoint 609:15 221:15 251:8 437:19 stopped 556:12 Structural 146:6,20 290:8 292:1 324:1,3 646:19 502:23 549:21 551:11 stopping 348:10 446:5 147:3 329:11 333:11 335:19 stands 290:8 578:2 stops 160:15 structure 179:18 436:10 336:1,8 338:1 385:12 Stanley 3:14 11:20 47:6 states 21:20 63:19 90:2 stops' 68:4 440:9 614:5 390:11 433:20 469:10 47:7 83:19,20 530:11 116:7 134:25 135:3 storage 26:17 27:8,12 structures 27:7 33:3 469:10 487:2,18 653:24 654:4 655:4,4 136:11,13 139:10 27:14 32:22 48:4,4 190:23 216:10 525:13 533:3 534:1,7 start 13:24 47:2 186:23 140:4,7 179:1 194:12 49:24 50:3 161:11 studied 506:4 534:8,10,12 535:9 202:20 238:4,5,5 202:3,4 206:20 214:6 176:14 177:2,7 178:19 studies 136:2 148:21 541:18,18 561:17 241:9 255:16 274:8 217:8 242:23 245:2 179:12 189:17,21,24 155:24 284:19 569:14 641:4,7 281:12,19 287:15 266:14 279:8 280:2 191:22 192:1,22 study 443:20,22,25 standard-making 267:4 311:15 323:12 341:1 286:19 305:15 311:22 194:22,24 196:18 445:11 448:11 standardize 139:18 402:24 472:6 586:23 316:5 364:3 386:9 197:17 198:20 201:4 stuff 332:2 506:6 149:11 587:1 387:7 392:13,17,17,22 207:15,23 212:9,21 stuffed 360:6 standards 2:4,10 13:16 started 196:4 197:21 393:1,16 436:4 437:14 213:3 215:3,14,20 style 22:22 109:3,3 13:17,20,23 14:4 223:20 358:14 386:6 440:19 441:7 459:17 216:7 217:4,7 219:17 112:20 311:22 326:9 15:11,16,20 16:8,10 391:7 461:4 508:23 482:4 487:15,17 222:2 224:24 232:7 443:12 444:21,25 16:11,11 18:5 20:3,8 523:12 550:2 571:25 552:13,17 553:6 233:13,24 234:1,4,8 538:24 20:11,17,22,25 21:5 572:1 618:1 568:20 604:24 651:21 236:2 241:19 244:9 sub- 96:21 97:13 136:4 21:11 24:16 25:17 starter 429:9 static 89:25 245:21 247:8 249:5 Subcommittee 177:21 26:2,20 27:21 28:14 starters 584:21 stating 156:1 461:12 250:25 252:7 259:15 subject 172:1 302:13 29:9 30:9,23 31:21 starting 19:20 219:17 485:14 496:15 608:13 261:16 265:11 268:14 496:12 598:8 645:9 36:13,15,16,18 37:3,6 230:24 255:6 265:6 630:1 273:20 274:18 276:22 subjected 243:21 250:1 37:8,10 44:6,17 45:17 345:25 535:8 station 259:7,8 279:8,13 281:24 284:7 submission 15:2 179:25 83:3 86:3 89:8 96:21 starts 260:6 407:19 stationary 177:7 192:15 284:15,22 285:24 266:12 414:3 530:23 108:7 111:10 113:16 587:5 212:10 213:4,5,10,16 289:6,25 600:19 618:7 submit 156:18 310:7 113:17 118:18,20 starved 257:22 213:21 215:13 217:4 stored 49:25 161:10 311:7 448:13 540:22 120:21 135:16 137:7 Stashak 2:15 23:12 244:10 245:4,9 259:18 243:18 submittals 322:19 141:12,25 142:1,2 state 24:19 82:3 154:14 261:16,19 273:20 stores 279:20 submitted 44:2 85:24 145:8,22 147:9 150:1 154:17 183:8 206:5 276:21 279:18 280:9 stories 396:12 481:18 108:2 115:21 120:16 163:6 168:21,23 208:22 324:11,12 281:24 282:4 302:24 482:6 133:12 145:4 147:4 172:18 177:13 184:20 342:1 364:5,9 374:10 304:1 564:7 570:17 story 430:2 482:2,11 156:11 158:24 160:7 192:21 213:7,20,23 383:6,21 392:7,12 586:7 stove 359:4 169:23 177:8 179:13 215:12,17 232:12 393:9 412:23 414:6 stations 177:22 200:17 STP 534:2,5 231:18 275:15 276:22 233:16 234:16 238:4 432:9 437:20 468:10 201:2 203:19 587:1 straight 510:12 526:10 294:1 309:19 317:13 242:23 245:24 248:25 474:25 484:24 485:21 statistic 89:25 straightened 410:5 317:17 383:20 404:20 265:13 266:9 267:19 535:2 542:10 552:21 statistics 220:14 380:16 straightforward 81:8 417:6,12 469:16 267:20 268:3,5,13 552:21 568:21,22,23 386:23 538:1 470:15 471:14 499:16 275:2 276:20 277:18 569:22 626:24 636:6 status 16:21 18:4 523:23 stranded 187:15 514:23 540:22 641:8 277:19 278:6,19 641:10 661:12 644:25 strange 187:15 submitter 42:10,16 280:12,21 282:13 state's 393:14 statute 178:22 Straniero 10:13 488:10 65:22 89:3 90:9 93:16 284:5 288:12 294:6 stated 47:17 55:13 89:7 stay 76:1 87:7 173:4 488:10 527:25,25 99:2 102:23 140:19 306:13,14 309:12,18 113:10 151:19 160:20 175:6 201:19 528:11,11 532:21,21 183:23 216:1 226:11 311:19 316:7,9 318:23 220:11 266:9 288:20 stayed 655:12 534:10,18,20,23,25 262:8 442:24 476:8 319:5 329:7 330:16 297:23 300:20 326:22 steadfast 23:3 535:4,5,7 632:3,3 495:12 540:25 621:24 347:2 374:10 410:24 381:22 390:2 393:5 stealth 516:17 633:3 635:19,19 642:5 414:1 417:22 418:8 416:7 442:2 448:2,10 steel 32:18 115:8 116:1 strategies 187:14 submitter's 89:7 171:19 431:13,18 433:24,25 448:13 461:5 462:6,9 130:7 431:24 473:15 Street 12:19 35:13 507:25 541:3 618:11 436:3 437:11 453:14 465:5 470:18,25 499:1 482:25 483:2 486:1 stretch 331:10 submitters 241:16 243:8 459:20 461:6,11 564:3 604:25 629:11 487:25 490:8 stricken 296:8 243:13 268:12 427:20 468:10 484:23 486:9 632:12 645:14 stellar 21:4 strictly 222:16 443:15 499:11,13 498:8 503:8 515:15 statement 135:25 stenographer 17:20 strike 401:25 516:15 540:22 517:22 525:1,3,8 172:12 220:17 231:20 step 262:20 605:5 617:15 Subsection 516:14 542:10 543:4 550:13 232:15,21,25 233:1 stepping 43:12 293:7 strikes 516:17 585:4 subsections 179:19 560:15 562:24 569:12 237:3,20 238:24 239:4 sterling 561:12 striking 617:16 subsequent 14:15 548:9 569:17,18 570:8,21 239:5 251:14 267:21 Steve 9:14 420:8,8 string 248:10,14 250:9 subsequently 45:21 575:25 576:15 629:11 270:2 290:1 295:25 sticking 184:18 stringent 486:7 568:11 445:5 639:5 297:9 309:9 318:11 stiff 528:22 strings 245:10 248:6 substance 111:7 311:17 standards' 139:8 323:22 324:4 325:4,4 stilts 363:15 stripped 129:13 substances 166:1 standby 213:11 214:1,10 336:16 337:23 347:10 stipulated 432:24 strive 579:7 substandard 460:25 219:14 222:3,17 225:6 351:5 443:2,17 455:8 stock 376:14 strobe 12:23 13:2 35:16 461:4 462:7 225:7,16 259:5 280:4 456:5 459:13 463:12 Stone 7:20 316:23,23 35:20 substantial 21:1 25:14 standing 73:5 75:20 477:24 490:19 499:11 356:14,14 423:11,11 strong 21:18 245:15 276:13 76:2 190:7 289:17 512:4 544:7 547:13 495:19,19 556:18 297:16 384:5 substantially 288:18,24 290:25 334:2 346:8 554:10,10,13,21 575:3 587:15,15 strongly 131:8 179:21 386:12 442:1 446:7,10 348:3 350:3 368:23 608:24 635:13 638:5 stood 581:3 215:20 278:4 343:24 618:21

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 50 substantiation 135:23 63:24 64:1,2,3 177:22 379:5,12 380:8,24 441:23 469:19 502:21 81:12,17,17 82:21 160:20 183:23 354:7 216:12 287:8,12 295:8 381:11,24 382:4 607:10 653:19 83:22 84:1 114:22 355:21 356:1 359:1,13 297:11 298:12 301:5 385:22 386:23 390:15 supports 156:17 202:14 164:20,22 165:1,16 360:3,9 363:2,7 365:7 303:14 539:10,11,25 392:1 393:5,8 399:14 298:19 301:6 316:2,15 167:9 174:14 186:13 367:5 368:18,18 541:13 543:13 548:14 399:19 400:1,8 402:24 335:22 343:24 382:15 192:1 197:17 200:12 369:10 372:24 373:16 549:24 550:16 551:17 403:2,23 404:23 405:6 386:3 418:19 423:4 203:8 214:5 215:21 375:14,16 403:13 554:8,22 557:12 407:2,4,16 410:4,6,17 455:12 474:12 216:11 219:17 241:19 419:12 434:8 448:9 559:24 560:14 570:8 411:13,19 413:18 supposed 154:19 249:5 252:7 258:22,24 487:23 488:2,24 575:17 578:3,17 414:23 415:3 416:16 389:23 474:25 564:19 259:2,4,6 260:19 489:18 507:24,25 607:17 609:6 610:1,7 418:25 419:16 420:22 supposedly 448:9 267:25 284:7 288:16 508:14 610:19 421:3,9 422:8,22 suppression 257:20 298:12 302:5 303:14 substantive 68:6 support 17:11 19:12 423:9,13 424:6,13 586:16 587:9 373:15 376:25 377:1 substation 190:3 285:1 38:2,20 40:17 41:2 426:16 427:14 428:3 sure 38:16 39:3,6,19 377:11 394:7 401:18 285:2 469:19 47:3 52:23 53:5 54:24 428:10 430:5,13,20 40:6 56:9 59:8 73:18 486:20 547:12 549:24 substations 182:25 56:13 59:17 65:8,15 431:15 435:1,4 437:2 113:25 127:2,16 550:16 560:14 564:25 222:6 284:23 69:1 70:16 76:10 78:3 439:7,14 441:18 128:13 165:21 174:14 570:8 571:9 578:20 suburban 202:6 83:14 84:11,18 90:15 443:25 444:4,7,16 186:11 188:11 201:20 580:15 586:19,22 subways 87:11 91:15,25 92:7,24 446:15 448:22 449:5 216:14 221:21 237:20 601:21 609:12 614:7 success 19:15 621:5 93:12,22 94:8 95:3,9 449:18,23 450:5,11 252:17 285:2 307:19 616:5,10,25 618:7 successes 621:3 96:1,7 97:6,19 98:2,19 452:9 453:1,8 454:15 319:5 382:5 393:16 system's 84:1 successful 18:19 48:24 99:7,18,24 100:16 455:9,23 456:1,13 409:14 412:25 451:13 systems 26:17 27:4,11 49:1 219:3 248:22 101:4,13,20 102:12,17 457:18 460:2,5,15,21 467:22 469:13 494:11 27:16,17,18 28:10 successfully 489:21 103:1,10,16 104:8,20 461:7 463:4 464:6 502:7 510:7 519:15 29:7,16,19 31:10,16 654:24 105:9,22 106:1,9,15 468:7 469:18 473:11 536:5 562:16 587:2 31:17 32:6,13,14 SUD 176:15 108:24 109:14 110:23 474:16 475:12,24 610:21 611:7 615:3 33:12,14,16,18,25 sudden 394:21 111:19 112:21 113:23 479:18 481:24 483:9 616:17 43:3,20 44:1 45:24 Sue 177:22 114:13 116:20 117:20 483:19 484:20 485:22 surface 90:6 366:3 46:21 47:20 50:11 sufficient 111:5 167:3 118:1 121:17 124:5,8 488:3 489:7 492:2,20 surfaces 100:20 57:24 58:3,4,4 59:9 316:10 402:17 487:16 125:3 126:6 130:2,5 493:11 495:6 499:10 surveyors 88:19 81:18 87:23 119:23 514:24 515:7 548:15 132:1,7 134:7 136:17 500:8 501:4 502:19 Susan 3:1 28:17,17,20 120:10,16 160:8,14,24 suffix 534:14 136:20 138:5,11 139:4 503:5,20 504:7 508:10 29:8 163:1,3 165:5 166:3 suggest 246:20 388:10 140:15 141:15,19 511:6 513:21 514:16 susceptible 438:13 167:4,8 170:23 171:13 434:8 452:17 536:7 143:19 151:10 152:19 516:8 519:16,17 520:3 suspect 55:3 171:16 172:17 175:18 610:12 152:25 153:5,8 154:15 524:5,8,21 526:2,14 suspected 148:15 176:14 177:2,8 178:18 suggested 19:17 153:16 157:13,20 162:16 532:8,16,17 536:19 Suzanne 2:11 20:15 181:5,7 182:16,25 414:16 164:5,10,15 165:8 539:17,22 541:25 Sweden 122:25 186:7 190:12,16 suggesting 61:3 655:16 166:21,23 167:24 542:10 544:16 545:9 sweeping 499:3 625:4 191:22 194:22,24 suggestion 606:7 171:6 172:5 173:14 545:22 551:3 555:12 Swiecicki 5:7 162:18,18 196:8,18 201:4 204:9 610:11 614:1 174:3,7 175:15,24 556:1 557:8 561:1 swims 614:21 621:25 207:23 215:14 216:2,3 suggestions 141:14 179:13 184:8,9 185:21 563:9 566:3,15 571:1 switch 69:13 181:9 216:8,17 222:2,3,4 suggests 323:24 189:3 194:9 195:4 572:18 573:4 575:14 216:3 311:13 314:9 232:7 233:13,25 234:5 suitability 614:14 197:4 199:24 200:7 579:15 583:11,22 331:13 342:3,6 401:16 234:8,13 236:2 245:5 suitable 112:11 329:8 201:15 202:14,18 585:19 586:2 587:23 425:12 429:8 505:19 245:6,7 246:9,14,15 403:21 409:21 462:12 210:1 211:7,17,24 588:11 589:8 591:2,11 512:6,6,8,9,10 513:4 246:16,22 247:8 525:8,12 529:22 217:5 218:15 226:21 592:3,5,6,12 593:2 517:10,16,23 523:20 250:13 251:1 252:9,13 614:15 227:3 234:24 240:13 595:4,12,17 596:5 524:10 588:7 590:8 252:17 257:20,21 suited 484:10 244:6,10 253:9,15,22 598:5 599:1,14 602:9 591:4 259:15,18 265:11 summarize 551:11 254:15 258:9 259:25 604:6,11 606:12,22,23 switchboard 512:6 268:14,16 275:1 summarizes 380:19 263:6 267:11 268:20 607:8 608:4 611:20 switchboards 328:11 279:13 280:4 284:15 summary 128:3 265:10 272:17,23 273:5,12 617:5 619:17,18 512:5,10 513:4 516:18 284:22 285:3,24 289:6 558:25 278:11,15 280:16 622:13 624:8 625:25 517:23 295:7 298:6 303:9 summed 218:9 287:20 291:14,20 626:5,10 627:4,18,21 switchboards' 517:9 311:11 346:4,16 summer 372:22 292:2,9 304:12,19 631:22 632:1,22 switches 67:14 69:20 349:20 403:11 404:14 sump 368:8 308:25 311:5 313:4 633:14 634:2,20 469:5 586:10 587:18 404:15 410:19,21 super-heated 346:19 315:11 320:25 321:6 635:17,20 636:18 591:18 592:2 594:5 433:21 434:4,25 441:8 superheated 350:3 321:11,18 328:1,4,24 637:16 639:13 640:2 597:2 598:22 486:17 528:1,12 550:1 superior 188:15 329:5 335:4,5 338:24 641:1 642:18,25 switching 343:15 560:16 561:18 564:11 supervision 182:20 339:6 340:18 341:5 643:12 644:19 648:7 switchyard 182:3 584:22 591:19 600:22 406:25 532:2 344:4,7 345:6 347:1 649:7,17 650:3,7,11 symbols 29:25 506:8 615:15,17 632:4 supplemental 561:4 347:13,13 349:8 351:4 651:18,22 652:8 sympathy 492:1 635:20 642:1 648:10 supplied 301:9 543:18 352:12,18 354:21 653:18 657:2 660:14 system 32:7 46:15 47:23 652:14 654:10 656:9 supplier 540:1,8 355:25 356:12,21 supported 57:12 155:21 48:24 49:5,23 50:8 systems' 302:3 suppliers 248:1,20 358:2 361:8,14,22 297:7 307:7 327:20 51:22,22 54:5,6,9,11 supplies 28:8 216:5 362:3,24 364:14 365:1 354:4 357:21 491:5 55:18,19,22 56:19,21 T 403:9 548:15 554:14 365:21 367:1,7,9,18 supporter 142:12 56:25 57:4,11,19,22 T 140:17 652:14 609:25 370:17,23 371:7,13 supporters 17:21 58:2,6,10,24 59:3,7 TA 267:11 supply 27:18 56:20 57:3 372:4,23 374:5 375:25 supporting 111:23 113:3 60:4,12,13 61:21 tab 13:11 44:4 86:1 57:20,21 58:5,10 59:9 376:15 378:15,23 156:22 166:10 367:7 63:24 64:4 68:9 72:3,8 108:4 120:19 145:6

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 51

147:7 159:1 169:25 398:16 496:22 561:5 78:7 81:9,10 85:3,5,11 166:19,19,23,25 136:23,24 139:13,17 177:11 294:4 324:9 612:23 85:16,20,25 88:18 teenage 185:11 140:24,25 141:5 150:4 table 24:18 71:22 126:8 talking 60:5 63:24,25 93:18 99:3 107:5,7,13 Telcordia 645:6 153:16 154:4 155:25 126:9,12,13,22 127:9 64:1 79:13 105:23 107:18,22 108:3 telecom 216:5 218:23 172:19,20 249:1 250:2 128:2,2,3,14,17 129:6 109:1 115:6 116:1 111:25 112:8,22 116:8 246:14 252:15,16 269:7 129:12 131:7,7,8 122:7 124:11 126:9 119:8,21,24 120:4,9 telecommunication 390:12 455:8,12,12 222:14,25 223:3 279:7 160:17 161:4 163:1,23 120:13,17 132:15,17 645:2 487:12 517:22 630:14 349:6,7 462:21 463:4 193:11 219:23 302:25 132:24,24 133:4,8,13 telecommunications 651:7 467:20,24 468:13 314:11 331:12 334:6 144:8,10,17,22 145:1 214:4 650:2 656:4 test' 37:17 38:10,20 41:1 469:10,25 470:5 334:25 341:14,15 145:4 146:5,14,19,24 teleconferences 277:3 test.' 127:14 471:20 486:23 519:18 349:16,17,19 351:6 147:5 155:20 156:22 telephones 651:11 tested 116:2 128:21 541:20 545:8 563:14 357:17,18,19 364:10 158:11,17,21,25 televisions 389:25 139:22 170:23 171:1,4 583:10 626:19 629:20 367:4 368:15 406:21 162:21 164:5,13 169:2 tell 49:6 93:7 94:15 389:7 395:15 458:23 630:2,23 632:17 407:17 408:1,2 483:25 169:10,16,19,24 127:12,14 201:17 469:6,8 tables 75:22 76:1 466:8 496:13,25 508:14 170:20 171:10 172:10 311:16 350:6 351:7 testifying 378:2 467:5 629:19 630:2,3 544:9,10 563:1 564:15 176:13,21 177:1,4,9 388:24 395:16 417:22 testimony 196:10 198:9 630:7 632:6,11,12,13 607:13 608:19 620:15 182:15 183:2,11 191:7 487:8 505:11 643:24 198:22 207:1 384:5 tablet 41:6,16,18,19,24 650:18 195:10 215:19,25 telling 436:17 498:16 412:19,21 42:1 209:25 253:8 talks 124:10 485:16,16 230:5 232:13 233:15 tells 90:21 93:6,8 487:10 testing 27:10,12 29:23 272:16 291:13 320:24 485:17 239:11 242:5,7 243:3 temperature 122:10,11 33:15,24 43:2,20,25 361:7 370:16 378:14 tall 220:12 486:15 243:18 245:16 247:9 122:12 134:22 395:3,6 52:3 67:13 93:7 399:13 420:22 449:18 tally 115:1 247:20 258:14 259:12 455:10 466:16,16 111:10 123:7 131:19 475:12 503:20 526:2 tank 164:22 259:17 266:3,19,22 470:24 474:15 135:24 136:8 140:9 555:12 566:2 572:17 tanks 27:14 160:7 161:9 267:23 268:11,25 temperatures 346:18 141:11 151:21 155:22 659:25 448:7 270:24 278:4,16 293:3 ten 505:22 156:21 171:2,24 Tagalog 509:5 tantamount 587:8 307:18 308:4 317:22 tenable 121:25 172:17,25 173:3,15,15 tagging 81:12,17 82:20 Tarchinski 7:8 299:3,4 354:6 363:7 396:13 tend 248:1 486:15 173:21 174:4,12,14 83:22,24 551:21,22 563:12,12 408:14,18 412:9 414:7 tends 505:9 175:1,4,16 201:9 tags 81:15,15 571:3,4 579:17,17 415:24 425:23 427:18 tens 217:16 222:25 243:22 246:12 take 12:9 19:18 20:4 target 578:9 431:19,19 434:8 448:9 Tentative 205:21 610:14 247:21 248:19,22 40:7 48:1,5 58:15,22 tarnishing 653:22 457:3 488:2 495:24 tenth 482:23 250:11,14,20,24 65:21 72:9 73:3 task 22:10,24 23:20,23 527:9 529:3 539:2 tenure 43:13 293:7 251:11,15,20,22 119:17,17 147:24 24:3,3,7,8 93:5 102:14 541:19 559:14 569:25 term 49:8 78:9 102:15 257:15 269:1 333:9,14 185:9 187:8,8 204:2 135:4 136:25 187:12 588:18 590:23 594:19 111:25 112:8,14 374:21 389:15 437:22 208:12 229:17 230:14 220:12 234:10 255:14 604:19 609:3 615:7 113:19 114:2 121:21 462:3 470:18 471:11 230:19,23 248:9 256:6 264:11 277:2 617:21,22 622:8 121:22 122:13 123:23 471:12,12,13,16 259:16 264:6 271:9 310:7 317:18 397:16 625:17 645:13 652:25 124:14 139:8 174:12 474:10,12 487:1 524:2 282:14 284:4 291:3 417:11,11 437:11 660:13,15 174:13 195:16 233:3,4 568:17 628:22 309:10 315:7 324:17 443:21 448:11 484:6 technically 354:4 429:11 285:21 307:1 317:23 tests 54:3 59:1 88:4 333:17 337:25 339:14 490:22 517:6,7 605:19 528:16 588:9 609:6 318:3 489:25 515:15 123:10 126:10,12 339:18 340:20 342:13 617:24 653:8 644:25 515:18,24 517:1 131:20 136:4 137:8 351:5 364:5 377:11 tasks 23:25 317:14 technicians 375:18 562:16 609:5 630:11 139:15 246:1,4 252:5 383:11 386:14 411:23 387:14 technologies 20:23 terminal 651:6,7,14,15 Texas 12:9 27:1 146:9 414:25 426:8 432:19 taught 618:10 186:20 189:14,17,20 terminals 161:12,12,13 154:14,17 436:18 491:20 500:12 TC 156:9 180:21 232:17 190:1,19 193:21,24 terminate 15:8 text 19:2,3,4,6 37:18 505:15 514:2 517:11 466:20 533:2 194:1 213:16 214:11 terminates 473:25 38:22 41:2,4 42:21 526:22 565:3 592:12 teach 203:14 214:17 215:3 219:22 terminology 109:5 44:18 45:18,21 46:1 taken 14:7 59:4 160:19 team 12:25 35:18 164:21 225:12 229:5 231:25 173:16 52:24 53:1,6,7 65:8,10 297:20 316:3 317:24 203:19 236:4,12,13 238:8 terms 60:20 94:2,10 65:15,17 67:7,9,16,22 329:5 335:14 363:13 tear-off 324:9 250:12 251:1 254:22 128:19 129:3 136:2 68:4,9,13 69:5,7,9 391:24 406:24 410:17 Tech 41:15 42:3 43:9 256:1 262:11,15,21 156:3 204:4 209:8 70:16,18 76:25 78:4,5 416:9 438:13 495:7 120:4 132:24 144:17 263:22 275:21 276:14 239:22 306:15 311:25 82:18 84:12,14,19,20 502:19 524:21 570:11 158:12 169:10 176:21 286:4 298:8 335:2 318:5,6 387:21 395:10 91:25 92:2,8,9 95:3,5 580:16 587:23 595:17 215:14 276:25 293:3 technology 153:12 412:19 506:7 544:15 95:10,11 97:20,22 626:23 642:12 technical 1:5 12:2,8 183:20 189:18,22 569:7 620:25 629:3 98:2,4 99:18,20,25 takes 82:22 83:6 262:20 13:13,18 14:8,13 15:4 190:10,23 194:2 219:1 630:16,19 632:8 647:3 100:1 101:14,16,21,22 284:5 357:22 360:10 15:19 16:2,3,14,15 234:1 235:6,9,16 654:18 103:11,12,17,18 106:9 513:3 605:12 17:7,25 19:7,14,19 257:5 262:22 274:25 terrible 397:7 106:11,16,17 109:12 talented 285:12 20:1 23:17 24:9,14,20 283:7 286:5,7,8,10,15 Terry 3:20 9:4 57:16,16 110:12 114:14 115:20 talk 80:14 81:11 113:13 24:25 25:1,3,4 26:12 287:7 303:17 316:6 69:3,3 392:4,5,10 115:22 116:10,22 182:10 191:14 282:2 26:16 27:6,9,16 28:23 357:18 360:12 369:9 test 38:16,21 39:23,24 117:20,22 118:2,3 395:20 408:19 419:14 29:4,18,22 30:1,2 31:6 377:19 384:11,20 48:7,8 49:10,11,24 121:6 125:3,5,13 455:2 563:14 607:24 31:9,12,17 32:2,6,9,20 389:15 390:3 395:10 55:9 87:25 88:3,5,6 128:9 132:1,3 138:5,7 615:10,12 629:25 33:2,4,5,14,19,23 34:8 395:11 397:5 398:4 90:22 93:6,6 110:9,12 143:19,21 156:2 630:23 649:4 34:13,17 35:2 36:5,8 406:19 410:23 525:4 112:16 114:19 115:8 157:14,16 167:25 talked 105:25 193:20 36:17,21,23 37:1,5 550:19 560:8 569:8 115:11 116:7,13 123:6 168:2 175:25 176:2 237:13,13 282:2 283:8 38:13 43:1,9,19,23 techs 62:9 126:23 127:22 129:1 199:19 211:18,20 301:18 368:22 397:6 44:3 55:4 64:24 74:22 Ted 5:5 159:9,9,18,20 130:9,10 135:5,7 212:2,4 226:22,24

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 52

227:4,5 240:13,15,20 93:12,19,24,24 94:18 259:22 261:13,24 428:21 429:14,16,21 588:15,22,23 589:4,22 240:21 253:23,25 94:19,24 95:8,19 96:8 262:5,6,23,24 263:3 430:2,3 431:5 433:1,3 590:12,14,24 591:7,8 254:16,17 263:7,9,14 97:1,8,9,15,25 98:16 263:21 264:13 267:13 433:8 435:1,2,20,22 591:13,21,23 592:8,9 263:15 273:6,8,13,14 98:23 99:5,14,23 268:16,17 269:23,24 436:20,21 437:4,5,7 592:18,23,24 593:22 292:3,4,10,11 295:5,6 100:9,13,21 101:2,10 270:20,21 272:4 274:1 438:23,24 439:4 442:7 594:8,10,20,25 595:1 295:9,18 304:13,15,20 101:11,19 102:5,9,18 274:7 276:15,16 278:7 442:8,10,15 444:2 595:6,13,14,21,25 304:21 321:12,14,19 102:24 103:5,6,15 278:8,16 280:22,23 446:18 448:17,19 596:1,2,20 597:7,9,21 321:20 325:21,22,22 104:5,10,12,17 105:2 281:20,21 283:13 449:6 450:23,24 598:2,3,4,16,18 599:2 326:5,11 330:20 105:12,17 106:1,5,14 285:15,16 287:17,18 451:15,17,22 452:7,19 599:3,8,9 600:5,12 338:25 339:2,7,8 106:25 107:2 108:9,16 289:11,13 290:10,11 454:5,10,20,22 455:5 602:11,12,14 604:8 352:13,14,19,20 108:23 110:23 111:2 292:15,16 293:18 455:19,21,25 456:14 606:14,16,24,25 607:2 361:22,24 362:4,5 111:16 112:23 113:5 294:8,18,25 296:9,10 456:15,23,24 457:7,8 608:6,7,8,20,21 609:3 365:15 371:7,9,14,15 113:20 115:1,11,19 296:12,21 298:25 457:13,14 458:8 459:1 609:19,20 611:9,15,16 379:5,7,13,14 400:2,4 116:17 117:5,6,14,15 299:1,21,22,24 301:9 459:2,4,9,23,24 612:13 614:25 615:1,3 400:9,10 401:6 402:18 117:25 118:7,21 301:10,12 302:6 304:4 460:15,16 461:7,8,15 617:1,2,7 619:9,11,19 408:10 410:11 411:13 120:23 121:4 122:13 304:9 306:4,20,22 461:16 462:12,14 619:20 620:18,19,20 411:15,20,21 419:25 122:14,16 124:2,15,16 308:20,22 309:2 311:1 463:4,5,7 464:2 621:17,18,20 622:14 421:10,12,17,18 124:21 125:22 128:10 311:2,4 313:4,6 465:13 467:10,15 622:16,25 623:21,23 423:15 424:7,9,14,15 128:11 129:24 131:10 314:22,23 315:23 468:3,4,15 470:7,8 624:4,22 625:7,9,19 428:4,6,11,12 429:3 131:11 132:11,12 316:21 317:2,3 318:19 471:21,22,24 472:15 626:1,2,15 627:7,9,14 430:14,16,21,22 133:19,25 135:17 318:20 320:1,2 322:15 473:7 474:16,18,20 627:15 628:12 631:3,4 437:14,24 438:2,7 136:14 137:20,21 323:4,10 325:24,25 476:17,23 478:20 631:6,11,23 632:18,19 439:8,10,15,16 444:13 138:21 139:23,24 326:2,19 327:22,23 479:7,12,13,14,14 633:4,5,10,11 634:23 445:12,16 447:18,20 140:12 141:15,17 328:3,25 329:1,13 480:6,11,13 481:9,12 634:24 635:1,6,14,22 447:22 448:10 450:5,7 142:14,15 143:8,9,24 330:8,9,11,13,15,21 481:23 483:19,20 636:14,15 637:6,9,15 450:12,13 453:2,4,9 144:5 145:10,24 146:2 330:22,24 332:16 484:2,15,17 485:1,2 637:25 638:1,3,16 453:10 454:16,18 147:11 148:3,4 150:17 333:18 335:5,6,7 485:10,23,24 488:8 639:8,10,17,18,23,24 456:22 457:19,20 150:18 151:7,12 336:11,12 337:3,9 489:3,4,6 490:4,5,8 640:18,24 641:8,9,11 464:6,8 474:21 475:25 152:13,15,25 153:1 338:10,11 339:19,20 491:8,9 492:3,5,16,19 641:16 642:15,20 476:2 479:19,20 154:9,11 155:4,5,11 342:18,19,22 343:2,25 492:25 493:2,6 494:1 643:2,3,8,9 644:12 481:19,20,22 493:12 156:23,25 157:19,25 344:1,6 345:6,7,9 494:6,6,20,22 495:2 647:7,8,10,15 648:2,4 493:13 501:5,7 504:7 158:1,16 159:6,11,18 346:20,21 347:15,16 495:16,17,21,22 497:5 649:8,9,11,19,20 504:9 511:7,9 520:4,6 159:20 161:18,19 347:23 349:8,9,11 497:6,17,22,24 498:20 650:8 651:21,23,25 526:15,16 533:11 162:13,18 164:7,8 350:9 351:3,16,17 498:23 499:7,9,21,22 652:10,17,18,22 536:20,21 538:25 166:13,14,24 167:9,10 352:2,4,8,23,25 353:6 500:6,20,24 501:19 653:23 655:1,2 656:1 539:8 545:22,24 167:21 168:5,24 353:13,15,22 354:22 502:8,10,15 503:1,2 656:17,22,23 659:21 554:10 556:2,3 557:3 169:14 170:5,12,18 354:23,25 355:5 356:8 504:19 507:10 508:5,7 660:13 557:4,5 565:12 566:16 171:7,9 172:2 173:7,8 356:9,18,19,20 358:2 509:14 510:8 511:2,22 thanking 21:3 293:13 566:18 573:5,7 583:23 174:8,16,17 175:7,8 358:3,18 359:16,18 512:18,20 513:16,18 thanks 34:21 40:4 43:14 583:24 589:9,11 593:3 175:14,20,21 176:5,10 360:19,21 362:9,14,23 513:23 514:13,15 72:10 171:6 240:7 593:5 596:6,8 599:15 176:25 177:15 180:17 364:14,15,17,22 516:8,9,11,20,22 365:18 635:21 599:16 610:3 611:21 180:18 182:7,8,11 365:17,23 366:15,18 518:3,5,20 519:7,16 the-question 41:9 611:23 624:9,10 184:5 185:22,23,25 366:22,23,25 367:20 519:19,24,25 520:25 theoretical 123:3 627:19,22,24 633:15 186:15,16,18 189:3,4 368:11 369:12,13 521:15 522:3,21,23 theory 394:23 633:17 636:19,21 189:6 190:25 191:2,7 370:4 371:22 372:3,25 524:2,3,7,16,17 thermal 90:23,24 247:17 640:3,5 643:13,15,15 192:25 193:1 194:3,5 373:2,7,25 374:2,13 525:15 528:3 529:25 250:15,22 257:17 657:3,4 195:6,7 197:6 198:16 374:15 375:9,11,22 530:1,3,8,11 532:4,5 261:19 thank 19:15,23 26:1,19 199:16,18 200:8 376:16 377:5,10,21 532:10,18,19 533:19 thermocouples 134:20 27:20 28:13 29:8 30:8 201:17,18 202:15,16 379:24 380:25 381:2,7 533:20,22 535:6,16,18 134:21 135:6,8 136:1 30:22 31:20,25 35:3 204:11,12,14 205:4,5 381:24 382:1,8 383:15 536:9,14 537:12,14,19 137:5 39:10 41:5 43:14 44:8 205:23,24 208:1,2,4 383:17 385:17,19 538:19,20,22 539:5,17 thermomagnetic 394:21 44:14 45:10,15 46:4,6 209:9,10 211:23 386:24,25 388:13,15 539:19 541:21 542:4,6 395:3 46:25 47:6 48:16,17 212:15 213:2 215:4,5 390:17,18,20 391:3 542:14,16,18 543:5,6 they'd 285:13 48:20 49:14,18 51:3,5 216:21 217:2 218:4,5 392:2 393:19,20 396:6 543:8,23,24 544:20 thin 436:11 51:7,15 52:12,13,18 218:15,16 220:4,5 396:15 398:18,20 546:13,21 547:3 549:5 thing 50:1 54:8 79:13 53:16 54:25 55:2 221:16,17 223:4 400:25 401:4 402:2,4 549:6,8 550:25 551:5 83:24 100:20 113:10 56:10,15 57:13,14,16 224:21 225:18 226:17 402:9,19,21 403:1,23 551:18,19 553:6,7 115:5 122:3 134:9 59:10,11 61:9,12,24 227:12 228:18 229:4,7 403:24 404:1,25 405:1 554:1,2,24,25 556:13 167:3 173:22 183:11 61:25 62:21 63:15 229:19 230:15 231:7 407:6,7 408:10,11 556:21 559:8,9,11 188:23 193:21 198:23 64:7,8,10,20 65:4,14 233:18,20 234:21 409:10,11 410:8,12,13 560:23 562:7,9 563:11 199:7 203:22 207:19 65:24 66:20,24 67:3,6 235:1,20,22 237:7,22 411:4,9 413:9,12,17 564:7,8 565:15 567:23 255:10 269:14 288:4 67:17,18,20 68:23 237:23 238:19,21 415:3,7 416:12,18 569:20,21,23 570:23 289:2 314:1 317:11 69:3 70:11 71:14,24 239:13,14,23 240:9 418:1,3,11,21,22,24 572:3,5 574:19 575:1 325:20 359:9 363:25 72:1,5,21 77:6 78:2 243:13,17 244:3,8 419:16,17 420:7,12 575:6,12 577:15,16,18 369:12 397:9 404:18 82:13,16 83:11,19 245:17,18 247:2,3,5 422:1,24 423:3,7,15 579:12 580:17,19 417:10 419:10 474:3 84:2,3,7,17,24,25 86:5 249:9,10 251:3,4,23 423:16 424:22 425:15 584:10,25 585:2,16,23 490:18 496:9 502:4 86:11 88:10,11 90:12 252:20 254:9,21,25 425:17 426:1,12,14,18 585:24 586:4 587:12 506:19 518:1 544:3 91:16,21 92:6,17,21 255:9 256:4 258:11,12 427:4,10,13,20,21 587:13,18,19 588:4,6 554:13 580:4 604:20

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 53

613:13 this.' 207:18 473:17 474:11 482:2,6 278:19,23 281:11,12 508:17 582:5 things 76:17 81:14 106:1 Thomas 6:10 8:1,5 482:11 484:1,20 488:8 282:17,19,20 285:13 tolerance 561:20 113:11 130:6 134:13 209:12,13 322:12,14 490:5,7 492:3 495:1 287:1 308:6,17 313:4 tolerant 247:18 143:2 152:21 184:23 322:16,18,21 323:1,13 495:18 502:14 503:6 319:15,19 328:16 Tom 10:16 11:13 146:8 185:2 187:14 192:19 323:13 333:22 334:1,3 507:14 512:23 513:21 335:12 337:22 351:9 293:11 492:5,5 638:16 193:5,24 215:9 224:16 337:10,11,14,16,19 514:11 523:15 539:4 356:3 368:5 373:23 638:17 641:16,17 225:11 228:3 237:12 368:12 369:14 376:18 564:9 568:15 585:15 374:20 377:8 378:19 647:13,15,15 238:4,5,14 271:5 376:18 406:6,6 462:16 587:14 590:23 591:24 385:5,8 390:16 393:16 Tomlinson 4:19 146:9 284:17 302:3 323:16 462:16,20 519:8,8 594:19 595:4 597:20 395:15 398:14,18 146:16,18 147:11 323:19 349:22 351:23 588:6,7,14,16 591:25 598:19 600:21,25 413:19 416:2 417:19 150:18,20 157:4,25 357:16 368:24 376:22 591:25 595:6,7 598:20 601:5,10,13 604:11 426:10 433:14 446:21 158:1 376:23,24 389:22,25 598:20 626:17,17 617:5 625:17 631:10 448:18 467:7 478:25 tomorrow 180:10 359:25 390:6 391:14 394:7 638:14 639:14,14 635:5 638:15 639:13 482:8 484:6 490:6 tomorrow's 359:22 396:6,24 398:16 641:14 647:14 496:18 499:17 507:8 tonight 412:25 416:2 412:17 415:14 437:16 thorough 171:11 524:24 three-year 153:9 514:20 519:1,6,16 543:12 622:11 449:2 462:17 576:15 542:21 threshold 59:5 192:9 530:24 531:19 539:17 tons 87:18 89:13 394:18 582:6 607:6 613:1 thoroughly 105:16 479:6 224:5,7,8,8,16 242:15 542:18 550:8,17 Tony 80:11 81:19,23 614:9 615:16 643:24 578:6 602:7 242:17 275:19 279:7 554:15 560:6 570:9 too' 396:21,24 412:21 651:4 653:5 thought 61:21 167:3 279:17 280:5 577:23 588:19 597:24 462:6 think 39:1 47:19 53:23 193:9 287:2 312:16 thresholds 275:19 601:18 605:12 609:4 too's' 382:6 55:12,25 56:8 61:2 313:17 334:1 500:2,8 throw 395:16 619:22 621:13 634:18 too.' 382:6 63:11 64:24 67:15 505:18 603:22 653:25 thrower 436:13 641:7 646:6 647:7 tool 165:9 72:3 83:4 93:1 113:10 thoughts 541:4 throwing 281:12 651:10 652:19 654:20 top 4:1 40:7 80:9,9,16,23 115:5 124:9 143:6 thousand 51:23 192:14 THURSDAY 1:8 12:3 655:5 660:2 80:25 81:8 161:5 151:22 152:3 170:21 200:16 245:6 246:6 119:10 230:7 412:11 timeline 157:6,7 201:4 660:4 171:4 173:3 185:12 248:10 346:7 403:10 527:11 timely 19:20 58:18 topic 223:18 314:1 186:24 191:20 192:17 404:11 406:13 407:20 TIA 156:11 258:4 264:11 154:23,24 319:12 368:22 408:16 192:18 197:1,11 199:7 445:18 452:4 420:1 517:21 610:24 timer 18:12 550:8 201:11 205:15 208:19 thousand-volt 248:6 TIAs 156:9 times 104:10 116:7 topics 23:21 24:9 298:13 208:22,25,25 209:1,4 thousands 47:16 48:6 tie 16:24 616:5 246:6,25 251:9 256:13 314:11,17 209:7 217:21 218:1,8 245:13,14 tied 70:2 415:13 482:12 314:8 497:19 505:21 Torbin 9:17 431:1,1,12 220:2 221:10,14 threat 148:19 246:23 483:13 552:19 431:12 235:17,18,24 236:16 437:15 438:8,11 474:5 tile 369:18,19 Timmons 8:22 382:8,9 Torley 4:24 153:3,3 258:8 282:10,17,21 threats 398:6 438:14 Till 5:12 169:4,4,13,14 Timothy 600:12 607:2 tortured 610:6 284:17 285:11 286:25 three 18:8 57:15 104:9 170:5 171:7,9 175:14 tiny 262:18 282:7 total 19:12 48:9 192:8 288:1,8 289:2 299:8 109:25 114:25 115:21 176:10 tired 446:15 576:4 502:20 299:11 308:18 311:9 115:25 117:2,2,3 Tim 3:23 4:19 5:24 62:3 603:21 totally 141:6 225:3 398:9 314:20 315:10,17 127:18 134:13 162:17 62:3,17,21 113:7,7 tireless 23:3 437:19 496:16 603:12 322:19 332:5,6,9 162:21 168:22 172:6 115:4,4,15 146:8,18 titanite 283:1,2,9 603:12 645:16 345:18 348:1,5 349:23 174:8,18 177:22 150:20 157:4 158:1 title 90:7 656:7 touch 37:24 38:2,4 40:15 353:6 359:9 369:22 180:18 189:4 195:7 191:5,5,5 220:7,7 TLC 53:12 170:9 40:18,20 52:22,24 370:2 388:11,21 198:7 205:24 218:16 231:4,4,13,17,17 toasters 354:20 53:1 65:7,9,10 70:15 389:11 390:21,22 222:12 234:18 237:7 235:24 236:8,8 238:23 today 16:9 17:2 21:16 70:17,19 84:10,13,14 391:5 396:25 397:2 239:22,25 247:9 239:2,2 241:1,1,11,11 23:16 26:17 31:15,24 91:24 92:1,3 95:2,4,6 400:18 405:22,25 249:11 251:24 260:1 241:11 251:6,6 264:24 32:3 36:8,14 39:3 41:9 97:18,20,22 99:17,19 408:6 409:13,23 410:1 261:14 270:22 276:25 264:24 265:7,7 270:1 42:5 72:16 75:25 99:21 101:13,15,16 410:2,4,5 415:25 282:12 285:16 307:1,2 270:4,4 278:13,14 109:13 111:24 116:25 103:9,11,13 106:8,10 416:2 420:5 425:3,6 307:2,8 311:3 313:7 599:25,25 600:12 118:11 160:4 168:14 106:11 117:19,21,23 425:24 426:8 427:17 314:19,21 316:22 607:2 612:8,8,19,19 172:18 188:15 195:18 125:2,4,6 131:25 429:11 437:16 451:11 317:13 318:20 319:14 622:16,16,23 623:1 195:19 196:24 199:4 132:2,4 138:4,6,8 460:23 465:2 473:20 319:23 330:14,23 time 13:10 17:5,17 18:10 203:4 233:10 251:9,20 143:18,20,22 157:12 473:24 474:7 479:4 332:7 333:20,21 18:13 19:18 20:21 268:25 279:16 290:4 157:12,14,16 167:23 491:4 495:1 506:14,15 336:13 338:4 342:4,5 22:9,24 25:15 36:3 330:7 333:3 349:6 167:25 168:2 175:23 506:20 509:21,22 345:8 347:17 349:3,5 37:18 38:5 39:6 40:3 353:7 369:12 377:19 175:25 176:2 210:1,2 510:7 512:14 522:19 349:10 350:11 354:2 40:21 49:8 55:22 59:1 384:4 387:5 388:4 211:16,18,20 226:20 524:15 533:13 536:4,6 355:4,10 356:5,13 59:5 60:21 64:15 393:23 408:23 440:11 226:22,24 240:12 549:14 553:3 576:21 358:4,10 359:16 360:4 65:25 68:19 82:8 441:23 456:3 484:12 253:10,11,21,23,25 582:6 585:14 606:8 364:21 365:14,22 102:21 126:16 127:14 533:2,2 551:8 567:3 263:5,7,9 272:17,18 610:22 621:24 622:1,5 366:17 367:20 373:6 127:20 128:6 130:9,10 604:23 273:4,6,8 291:15,16 622:13 626:20 653:15 374:5,14 375:10 381:6 130:21 149:21 151:3,5 today's 13:25 14:3,6 292:1,3,5 304:11,13 658:11,11 383:16 388:16 394:16 155:18,21 173:1 16:23 37:9 41:21 42:1 304:15 320:25 321:1 thinking 474:2 500:8 396:14 402:8 406:4 174:21 185:14 197:12 354:14 359:22 360:11 321:12,14 338:23,25 580:5 609:25 653:10 410:7 412:6 415:25 201:17 208:15,17,17 369:3 339:2 352:11,13,15 third 126:15 128:7 129:5 418:4 425:25 429:20 218:3 221:11 223:10 Todd 293:11 361:8,9,21,23,25 214:3 300:7 329:23 433:7 435:21 442:14 223:24 224:19 241:17 toe 389:4,4 370:17,18 371:6,8,10 330:4 582:12 449:7 451:21 455:3 247:2 248:21 256:21 together.' 290:1 378:15,16 379:4,5,7 thirty 407:17 412:3 459:8 461:8 466:13,14 260:5 261:11,11 told 277:15 416:24 399:14,15,25 400:2,4 this,' 500:8 467:14 468:8 471:5,8 263:19 267:16 269:7 417:12 481:3 506:19 411:12,14,15 420:23

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 54

420:24 421:8,10,12 12:1 119:6 230:3 387:13 398:8 409:4 371:9,16 373:10 406:11 437:22,25 424:5,7 425:13 428:2 412:7 527:7 436:17 460:24 496:12 376:17,21 377:2,5 484:10,12,25 485:14 428:4,6 430:12,14,16 transfer 331:13,13 506:3 538:15 544:13 379:7,15 382:7 393:20 485:16,17,17 486:5,21 439:6,10 449:19,20 586:10 587:18 588:7 554:14 562:3 582:25 394:15 400:4,11 488:4 489:9,14,16,24 450:4,6,7 452:25 590:8 591:4,18 592:2 612:25 616:13 621:3 402:19 403:6,25 492:23 494:11 497:19 453:2,4 457:17,19,21 594:5 597:1 598:22 623:11 645:12 656:13 409:11 410:12,14 529:1 531:13 533:8 464:5,7,8 475:13,14 613:10 TSTC 645:7 411:15,22 416:17 584:21 638:25 639:3 475:24 476:1,2 479:17 transformation 204:23 tube 486:1 489:12 490:9 418:11 421:12,19 typical 409:15 479:19,21 493:10,12 transformers 328:11 491:21,23 500:13 422:16 424:9,16 typically 16:1 36:25 493:14 501:3,3,5,7 Transit 119:22 120:10 tubing 431:14,25 487:5 426:17 427:6 428:6,13 89:20 115:8 139:9 503:21,23 504:6,8,9 120:15 489:11 430:16,23 435:5 204:10 248:6 372:18 511:6,8,9 520:2,4,6 transmission 196:13 Tuesday 436:25 532:15 436:20 437:6 439:10 523:21 568:20 526:3,4,13,15,17 204:23 606:21 619:16 642:24 439:17 441:12 446:18 536:18,20,22 545:9,10 transmittal 261:4 649:16 447:9 450:7,14 452:10 U 545:21,23,25 555:13 transparency 334:7,22 tune 173:1 453:4,11 457:21 UL 21:20 26:8 139:14,14 555:14,25 556:2,4 transparent 153:7 tunnel 123:5 124:1 462:17 464:8 466:9 140:21 141:12,23 566:3,4,14,16,18 transportation 86:25 132:16 133:5 142:4 468:14 473:12 474:4 142:12 174:10 180:20 572:18,19 573:3,5,7 91:12,14 96:6 302:22 tunnels 122:20 124:1 476:2 479:21 485:21 198:8 216:7 218:18 582:14 583:11,12,21 303:14,23 550:11,16 133:10 140:2 487:15 491:8 493:14 237:8 245:24 248:22 583:23,25 589:7,9,11 553:23 559:25 570:15 turn 24:17 34:24 41:16 497:6 499:23 501:7 249:2,12 268:5 275:22 593:1,3,5 596:4,7,8 570:19 578:4 153:11 285:19 303:13 504:9 508:19 511:9 285:18 296:22 300:1,7 599:13,15,17 611:19 trash 429:7 549:23 550:15 570:7 516:20 517:18 518:3 301:6 317:6 326:20 611:22,23 624:7,9,11 travel 445:24 643:25 519:7 520:6 524:17 335:8,22 337:21 343:3 627:17,20,20,22,24 traveling 507:4 turned 338:7 526:17 530:7 531:8,13 436:22 487:13 532:11 633:13,15,17 636:17 tray 502:15 632:14 turning 511:3 560:13 535:19 536:22 539:23 533:3 534:2,12,18 636:19,21 640:1,3,5 trays 630:9 TUV 176:15 542:14 545:24 549:15 535:9,14,16 541:17 643:11,13,15 651:2 Treasurer 384:2 tweak 319:23 550:4 551:4,11 556:4 551:6,6 562:10 586:5 657:1,3,5 659:5,7 treat 165:2 Twelve 140:6 559:16 562:7 563:14 586:6 606:17 619:12 touched 128:18 375:3 treated 279:12 609:13 twice 317:8 407:13 563:22 566:18 568:13 642:21 649:12 377:4,9 609:16 430:2 573:7 576:17 577:22 ULC 326:20 touching 377:4 563:20 Treatment 34:10 two 19:6 21:11 23:23 579:15 580:1 583:25 ultimate 122:6 tough 185:14 tremendous 276:1 350:7 24:7 26:18 38:23 41:4 584:17 586:3 587:19 ultimately 422:11 548:5 tougher 460:9 468:19 508:1 42:5 51:23 53:1,8 55:4 588:4 589:11 591:11 552:16 toxic 237:15,15,17 239:8 trends 380:18,19 58:1,19 61:11 63:9 592:9 593:5,18 595:14 unanimous 402:18 346:19 trials 374:21 65:10,17 70:18 72:9 596:8 598:3 599:17 407:2 416:11 434:25 toxicity 239:7 trigger 260:15 72:17,20 76:12 77:1 601:3 602:18 611:23 539:16 toxics 237:14 238:14 trip 394:20 396:2 576:14 78:6 84:14,21 92:2,10 615:7 620:19,24 621:7 unanimously 175:15 260:16,17 576:18 95:5,12 96:4 97:22 621:19 623:20 624:11 194:13 542:24 Toyota 294:13 295:1 tripped 395:18 98:4 99:20 100:2,18 626:5 627:24 633:17 unaware 441:1 546:14 547:4 554:5 tripping 384:18,25 385:2 101:16,23 103:13,18 636:21 640:5 643:15 uncertainty 250:5 TPI 217:3 244:9 385:11 389:6 397:11 106:11,18 117:1,2,22 644:1 647:20 649:9 382:23 trace 324:25 397:12,21,25 118:4 125:5,11,13 654:15 657:5 658:24 unclarity 646:25 tracing 409:19 tripping' 389:18 127:18 132:3 135:24 659:7 unclassified 447:10 track 582:23 trippings 389:24 138:7 143:21 149:17 two- 164:15 448:1,2 trade 556:18 575:3 trips' 389:18 154:23 155:19 156:12 two-fold 441:12 unclear 115:21 173:17 trademarked 129:11 trouble 259:6 157:16 162:7 163:6 two-thirds 391:4,18 558:24 tradition 185:20 trout 395:17 397:23 168:2 176:2 179:19 type 13:14 36:7 48:4 underground 87:11 traditional 186:8 195:2 truck 432:7 182:17 187:14 190:6,8 59:22 81:14,25 89:6 440:14 441:3,14 213:17 214:1 225:7 true 59:23 60:22 160:24 202:25 206:2 209:10 127:19 182:16 217:12 442:20 443:6 445:4,17 601:22 312:10 331:6 385:6 211:20 212:4 222:3,4 238:3 278:3 298:17 445:23,25 446:8,11 traditionally 184:13 458:25,25 490:11 223:4,17 224:1 226:24 389:16 397:17 401:17 447:1,4,6,7,15 448:3 300:24 469:9 655:21 528:22 605:14 618:9 227:6 229:23 234:25 403:20 406:16,23 undermined 393:4 traffic 557:17 562:18,23 630:17 661:12 238:21 240:15,21 407:25 409:7 416:9 underneath 355:18 563:17 564:1 571:22 truly 22:11 23:6 188:11 248:9 253:25 254:18 447:12 482:13 485:19 underserved 651:20 tragedy 599:1 trust 75:24 303:8 392:23 259:5 263:9,16 270:10 486:4,4,4,11,11,14,21 undersize 610:4 tragic 376:1 393:2 473:22 273:8,15 275:9 281:3 488:6,14,15,20,20 understand 53:21 69:14 train 127:19 130:7,8,11 truth 394:11 289:11 292:5,12 489:9,9,12,12,21,21 71:8 75:21 131:20 130:13,15 436:16 try 39:5 47:21 52:9 54:2 296:18 299:8,23 302:7 489:22,22 490:1,1,2,3 156:20 160:15 173:20 603:22 73:8 182:14 222:1 304:15,22,24 307:21 490:3,16 492:10,12 184:25 203:11 205:15 trained 163:19,24 166:6 260:23 324:17 391:9 308:25 315:23 317:3 528:24 530:25 531:2 238:6 267:6 268:13 396:17 396:11 417:21 473:11 321:14,21 325:21 533:2 565:5 568:13 271:11 272:1 316:10 training 164:3 166:5,7,8 509:23 543:16 576:2,4 326:18 329:2 330:21 576:3 618:22 367:23 369:7 392:14 185:4 582:24 658:23 335:6 339:2,9 341:18 types 191:22 192:18 405:7 409:24 419:13 trains 87:9 128:20,22 trying 52:1,2 53:22 67:15 341:23,25 342:25 193:20 232:2 247:13 429:24 492:21 564:19 transcribed 1:22 661:6 69:8,15,22 70:3 344:16 348:4,19 259:15 274:25 279:4 605:8 614:13 631:19 TRANSCRIBER'S 661:1 151:21 170:20 201:16 349:17 351:6,9 352:15 279:21,25 280:7,11 understanding 139:21 transcript 309:12 205:10 219:8 235:19 352:21 355:3 360:4 297:21 298:2 308:12 203:20 265:20 268:2 TRANSCRIPTION 1:3 262:8 283:4 365:9 361:24 362:6 368:11 333:1 346:14 405:9 276:3 283:21 284:24

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 55

367:10 496:18 515:17 320:21 322:6,9,10,11 272:10 290:15 320:6,7 unreliable 390:3 631:1 632:25 647:5 524:25 649:6 323:7,9 331:17,18,20 322:3,6,10,11 331:16 unreported 360:15 650:10 understands 173:2 331:22,24 332:1,2,3,5 331:20 332:1,3,12,14 unresolved 568:9 usage 298:12 558:5 334:24 562:17 332:9,12,13,15,17,19 332:15,19,20 333:24 unsafe 336:11 348:9 559:4 564:4 understood 88:17 96:15 332:20 333:24 339:20 378:1 379:11 390:24 403:15 518:16 598:14 usages 577:1 137:6,6 184:14 213:14 340:3,22 353:12 392:8 395:19,25 396:3 unspecified 394:9 use 13:13 36:6 80:17 373:16 518:14 622:6 360:23 361:4 362:19 396:8 399:2 401:13 unsuccessful 485:22 87:20,20,21 89:8 97:7 undertaken 149:3 154:9 362:20 370:7,13 412:2 420:19 422:25 unsuitable 112:12 97:8 109:11,18 111:13 381:19 371:25 378:1,11 462:5 464:23,24 unsurpassed 22:15 113:12,16,17 114:2,6 undertaking 441:10 379:11 380:2 395:19 477:14,22 496:6 503:9 untenable 123:19 114:7 116:7 124:1 Underwriters 299:25 395:25 396:3,8 398:24 503:11 510:11,13 untested 372:16 134:24 139:15 141:23 undue 220:2 584:24 398:25 399:1,2,9,10 513:17 534:20 542:11 unusable 383:6 166:4,6,8 182:17 unduly 529:21 401:3,13 412:2 413:15 559:3 576:21,22 unused 447:16 184:12 195:16 199:15 unenforceable 311:24 420:10,12,18,19 422:4 581:21,25 582:8,11 unwavering 23:6 207:12,13 222:3 311:25 444:20 423:20 424:25 428:24 590:9,11 608:24 609:6 up.' 205:12 287:10 288:1 297:25 unfamiliar 89:19 428:25 431:8,9 434:19 630:3,14,20,21 634:4 upcoming 302:19 298:5,24 299:14 unfettered 547:17 440:2 449:15 451:3,4 641:5 646:21 657:6,7 383:12 302:20 303:23,24,25 unfinished 363:19 454:9 458:11 464:22 657:11,13,17,19,22 update 569:11 641:6 304:1 319:25 336:10 366:12 367:24 368:1,8 464:24 465:16 474:23 658:6,13,19,22 659:9 642:5 363:16 382:14 384:21 368:9,25 369:3 475:9 476:10,21 660:8,11 updated 196:15 199:20 385:8 387:19 389:16 unfortunate 126:7 134:9 477:13,15,18,21,22,25 unintended 247:13 213:25 641:5 642:10 418:16 433:17 435:12 247:13 256:12 347:11 478:10 481:15 494:4,5 275:12 282:10,21 updates 24:10 438:15 470:23,25 499:19 496:6 501:22,23 503:9 341:9 403:5 646:3 updating 196:19 641:22 473:4 482:3,5,8,12 unfortunately 58:16 503:11,17 504:22 653:21 upgrade 123:12 152:10 483:4,13 485:22 109:10 148:10 192:3 510:11,12 511:25 unintentional 392:20 upheld 435:11 486:12 487:3,22,24 257:8 278:18 311:9 513:17 522:6 525:24 unintentionally 275:11 uphold 150:22 488:3,4 490:12 492:10 359:8 376:24 499:13 528:6,7,8 537:13,22 654:16 UPS 216:3 218:22 492:11,12 506:24 562:3 645:8 544:24 545:5 546:25 uninterruptible 214:5 219:14 245:7 507:1,3 515:14 528:17 ungrounded 614:4 555:9 556:25 565:24 Union 135:12 UPSes 597:3 529:21 552:6 558:5 UNIDENTIFIED 2:5 567:19 572:14 574:5 unique 23:19 171:15 urban 181:11 187:20 570:14,15,17,17 571:9 19:22 38:12,14,18,25 575:9 580:22 581:1,9 208:9,12 225:11 196:3,3 199:15 203:16 576:23 580:6,9 609:5 39:8,10,14,18,21,24 581:18,19,20,21,22,25 466:15,15 568:22 urge 48:15 50:15 52:11 610:5 614:14,15,15,19 39:25 40:1,2 44:12 582:8,9,10,11,12,15 unit 250:9,21,22 258:25 54:24 59:9 61:8 70:4 616:2,3 630:11,13 45:8,9 62:20,22,23,24 582:18,21 583:7 372:12 373:13 492:12 84:1 96:6 112:21 646:14 647:22 648:16 62:25 63:4,11 66:2,5,6 584:13 589:25 590:9 586:11 116:16 127:25 135:14 user 111:8 112:10 66:7 67:2 70:21,22,23 590:11 593:25 596:23 United 21:20 90:1 116:6 164:5 174:3,7 185:21 115:24 127:16 130:18 70:24,25 71:1,2,3,4,5 600:9 612:16 624:25 134:25 135:3 136:11 197:4 199:16 218:15 324:20 328:6 329:9 71:6,7,11,13,18,19,20 628:15 634:15 637:12 136:13 139:10 140:4,7 224:19 233:16 235:20 334:22 336:6 385:6 71:21 72:23 73:1,4,8 640:21 644:15 653:25 194:11 202:2 214:6 239:23 243:11 252:18 458:24 506:11,13,15 73:10,12,13,22,24 654:7 657:6,8,9,10,11 217:8 305:15 386:9 261:12 267:11 272:2 515:11 525:10 616:22 74:2,5,6,8,10,12,20,25 657:12,13,17,19,22 387:7 441:7 552:13 280:16 281:2 283:10 629:4 630:6,18 631:3 75:1,3,5,7,8,9,11,14 658:6,13,19,21,22 553:6 651:20 285:10 287:13 290:9 users 141:4 232:3 267:5 75:17 76:15,17,21 659:9,15 660:8,10 units 250:21 251:11,22 315:21 316:20 319:13 267:24 276:2 289:5 77:3,9,11,12,13,14,16 unidirectional 299:11 279:23 372:13 375:19 329:12 330:8 333:18 417:5 432:20 514:25 77:17,20,24 78:10,14 unified 495:9 380:10,14 382:21 335:4 345:5 346:19 515:7 541:6 550:12 78:16,17 79:8,10,16 uniform 393:5 394:2 513:12 347:13 349:8 350:8 606:9 617:21 618:12 79:18,21 80:3,14,17 uniformity 82:8 604:5 universal 275:10 383:14 390:16 393:18 628:24 80:18 81:5 83:16 uniformly 603:6 universe 68:21 396:6 404:24 406:3 uses 110:22 219:22 86:14 92:20 95:22 uniforms 152:22,22 unjustified 345:3 407:5 411:2 418:2,20 298:9 485:1 558:8 98:14,15 100:12 102:8 unimpeded 343:16 unknown 324:3 336:10 422:22 426:24 435:18 563:17 104:4,23,25 108:20 unintelligible 19:22,23 646:6 435:24,25 436:18 USFA 380:16 117:10 118:24 119:16 38:12,14,18 39:11,14 unlimited 489:13 437:3 438:22 451:14 usually 58:1 121:12 125:7,25 134:3 39:15,16,20,21 62:20 unlisted 646:20 647:23 456:13 458:16 461:7 utilities 178:16,24 179:7 138:24 145:13 147:23 62:25 66:7 71:7,18,19 648:12 652:12 653:10 465:21 472:1,16 181:4,22 182:14,20,23 159:14 166:17 170:15 71:21 72:23 73:4 74:9 653:11 654:21 474:16,16 491:7 183:12,22 184:14 178:5,6 198:3,6,13,15 74:25 75:3,7,9,12,15 unmatched 24:16 514:10 519:17 525:13 185:12 188:2,5,25 209:15,22 210:4,5,6,7 76:21 78:14,17 79:8 unnecessarily 357:15 549:2 551:17 559:7 193:25 194:11,14,17 210:11,12,14,16,17,22 79:21 80:3 87:25 unnecessary 93:17 99:3 565:13 587:11 588:3 194:17,25 197:17 210:25 211:3,9 212:18 93:10 98:15 104:23 111:11 143:8 548:6 591:20 592:17 595:19 199:8 203:7 206:7,8 229:16,20,21 230:13 109:14 110:1 117:10 577:8 637:24 598:16 606:11 621:17 209:3 216:4 222:3 230:18,21 231:10 122:7 131:14 145:13 unneeded 217:16 626:14 653:18 246:15 284:25 289:5 240:6,7 241:7 249:4 147:16 180:3 197:9 unplugged 359:11 urgency 58:17,22 441:6 539:25 600:18 253:5 254:2,4,5,8,11 198:3,15 210:11,15,16 unprecedented 226:9 urging 182:4 646:21 652:13 255:3 257:24 265:3 210:17 211:9 229:20 unprotected 445:6 USA 212:9 273:20 utility 178:10,14 180:24 272:8,9,13 274:4 230:18 231:10 240:8 unqualified 359:6 508:4 274:11 181:12,14,17,20 186:5 290:15,22,24 291:5,6 249:4 254:2,5,11 508:5 510:1,6 usability 454:18,19 190:3,17,18 194:23 291:7,9,10 294:21 255:15 257:24 259:10 unquote 225:13 515:9 456:11 466:12 469:25 195:17,20,23,25 196:1 306:5 320:6,7,8,10,17 263:25 271:11 272:8 516:1 531:12 628:24 629:4 199:1,2,10,14 200:15

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 56

200:20 201:3 204:8,25 548:10,14 549:4,5,23 562:13 76:10,25 77:7 78:3 406:3 407:5 410:11 214:4 218:22 222:9 549:23 550:14,15 Villa 30:15 84:2,8,10,11,13,15,18 411:2,9,12,12,14,19 289:25 405:4 441:21 551:12,16,16 552:12 Vincent 3:5 30:12,14,22 91:22,23,24 92:1,3,7 416:11 420:16,21,22 600:1,13 601:2 603:2 552:22 553:6,20,21,23 Vinyl 121:2,17 124:8 94:25 95:2,2,4,6,9 420:22,23,24 421:3,8 607:3 608:16 609:9 553:23,25 554:24 125:19 126:5 130:5 97:16,18,19,21,23 421:9,11,13,16 424:3 612:9,20 613:9,11 557:11 558:12 559:23 133:23 134:7 136:20 98:1 99:14,17,18,19 424:5,5,6,8,9,10,13 614:7,13,17 620:11 560:12,13,17,19 138:19 139:4 141:19 99:21,22,24 101:8,12 425:10 427:9,25 428:2 621:6 622:17 645:10 561:10 564:4,5,18 460:5 485:5 101:13,15,17,19,20 428:3,5,7,10 430:10 645:23 565:2 567:11 568:6,7 violate 444:20,25 103:7,9,10,12,13,14 430:12,13,15,17,20 utilization 298:15 568:11,16,18 569:12 violation 326:9 103:16 106:5,8,8,10 434:25 437:3 438:22 utilize 16:18 184:10 569:16 570:5,7 571:12 Virginia 188:19,20,21 106:12,13,15 116:16 439:4,6,7,8,9,11,14 utilized 129:8,11 603:15 571:19 575:17 578:3 virtually 458:20 117:16,19,19,21,23 444:1 446:16 449:13 utilizes 181:8 198:21 vehicles 295:18 296:1 virtue 639:6 118:1 124:19,24,24 449:17,18,18,19,20,23 utilizing 116:13 204:19 297:4 298:9,9 301:9 visa-versa 137:11 125:1,2,4,6,11 131:22 450:4,4,6,8,11 452:17 302:2,11 303:23,24 vital 24:21 131:22,24,25 132:2,4 452:23,25 453:1,3,5,8 V 304:1 547:14 550:11 Vogel 177:24 132:6 138:2,2,4,4,6,8 456:23 457:15,17,18 V2X 297:3 558:20 564:2 568:23 Vogel's 177:22 138:11 143:15,15,17 457:20,21,23 458:16 vac 565:3 568:25 570:14,15,17 voice 12:21 13:3 35:15 143:18,20,22,25 464:2,5,5,7,9 465:21 vague 131:3,9 142:13 579:24 580:5,8 600:20 35:21 150:14 157:10,10,12 475:7,11,12,12,13,15 170:24 171:5 311:24 vehicles' 564:6 voices 71:23,25 72:6,12 157:13,15,17,20 475:21,23,24 476:1,3 311:25 444:13,19,24 velocity 121:21,24 122:3 72:22 73:7,14,21,25 161:18 163:16 164:6 479:15,17,18,19,21 vaguely 347:12,12 122:5,21 123:2 124:11 74:3,15 75:2,4,6,10,16 167:19,21,23,24 168:1 488:6 489:2 493:8,10 Valencia 33:10 124:12 76:14,19 77:2,5,8,15 168:3,6 173:6 175:7 493:11,13,14 501:1,3 valid 242:7 280:18 velocity' 122:18 77:19,22 79:1,11 175:21,23,24 176:1,3 501:4,6,8 503:19,20 313:11 331:9 529:23 venison 395:17 80:19 119:19 230:16 176:6 180:16 182:4,4 503:20,22,23 504:2,4 646:3 ventilation 123:5 124:1 230:25 339:22 189:11 192:7 197:5 504:6,7,8,10 511:4,5,6 validated 335:25 131:18 258:24 260:9 volatile 247:16 199:16 209:20,24,25 511:8,10,13 519:25 validation 151:16 156:17 260:11 261:19 284:10 volt 201:2 245:5,6,7 209:25 210:2,3,21 520:2,3,5,7 525:13,22 165:24 284:14,17 248:7,10 299:16,16 211:6,13,16,17,19,21 526:1,2,2,3,4,9,11,13 valuable 46:14 50:24 verbal 472:9,10 303:3 353:25 354:17 211:24 215:1 224:19 526:13,14,15,17 126:22 190:14 200:19 verbatim 276:6 354:19 355:23 358:17 226:18,20,21,23,25 529:24 532:17 536:15 201:11 385:14 verification 149:5,19 380:9 548:11 227:3 235:20 237:5 536:18,19,20,22,25 value 48:23,23 51:19,25 150:5 151:3 154:25 voltage 200:2 247:24 238:19 240:10,12,12 538:13 539:16 540:18 201:16 241:20,22 155:14,22 156:15 248:3 429:5,9,13,25 240:14,14,15,16,19 545:3,7,8,8,10,11,16 249:21,24 284:1,21 171:12 438:18,20 466:1,24 241:24 243:11 252:18 545:18,20,21,23,25 328:6,17 434:14 verified 151:13 152:7 472:25 498:13,14,14 253:3,7,8,8,9,10,11,12 550:24 553:2 555:7,11 values 88:6 129:4,20 154:19,23 156:4,6 506:21,22 517:14,15 253:16,19,21,22,24 555:12,12,13,14,16,21 275:20 438:10 467:4 462:2 515:14 524:10 552:9 563:20 254:1,15 261:12 263:3 555:25 556:1,3,4 467:24,25 470:2,3,5 verify 50:17 89:4 150:25 651:1,2 655:12 263:5,6,8,10,13 560:22 565:14 566:1,2 vapor 167:18 529:6,7,9 151:5 volts 247:25,25 259:19 269:12,22 272:2,15,16 566:2,4,5,10,14,15,17 529:10 Verizon 645:7 259:19 346:4 349:19 272:16,18,20,22 273:2 566:19 570:21 572:2 vaporizer 163:4 version 438:4 552:20 355:21 372:10 403:11 273:4,5,7,9,12 278:6 572:12,16,17,17,19,20 vapors 107:6 440:19 569:3 579:23 403:12 440:17 445:18 290:10,20 291:3,12,13 573:1,3,4,6,8 578:23 446:2 versions 141:1 552:18 461:2 466:24,24 471:2 291:13,15,16,19,24 579:10 583:4,9,10,10 variable 395:12 568:22 473:1 650:23 292:1,2,4,5,9 299:8,20 583:12,13,15,19,21,22 variances 69:18 versus 61:15 151:19 volume 275:20 304:2,9,11,12,14,16 583:24,25 584:3 variations 275:25 185:10 247:25 249:16 volumes 161:3 304:19 315:22 316:20 587:12 588:3,21 589:5 variety 23:21 173:24 284:8 286:15 366:12 voluntary 178:25 319:13 320:19,23,24 589:7,8,10,12 592:17 219:2 231:25 233:13 542:22 volunteer 22:4 24:11 320:24 321:1,3,6,11 592:24 593:1,2,4,6,7 236:1 265:11 446:2 vertically 141:6 volunteered 23:22 321:13,15,18 329:12 595:12,19 596:2,4,5,7 558:8 576:25 vessel 89:19,24 90:4 volunteering 24:5 330:10,12,20 338:20 596:9 598:1 599:10,13 various 109:2 126:11 vessels 88:14 89:6,10,12 volunteers 20:21 22:12 338:23,24 339:1,3,6 599:14,15,17 602:10 172:10 179:2 183:4 89:16,17,17 90:11 22:18 346:25 350:9 352:8,11 603:25 604:1,1,2 268:3 277:2 287:3 91:5 96:12,16 105:24 vote 16:9,21,24 18:16,16 352:12,13,15,18 356:4 609:17 611:16,19,20 298:9 391:13 438:8 Veteran 33:10 18:18 19:11 36:13 357:12 361:2,6,7,7,9 611:22,24 612:2 496:19 548:3 558:5 vetted 249:22 385:5 37:17,22 38:1,3,5,7,10 361:11,14,21,21,23,25 614:24 620:17 621:11 576:23 630:7 496:9 38:20 40:13,17,19,21 362:3 365:14 366:21 621:14,17 622:10 vary 487:21 viable 152:1 274:23 40:23 41:1,7 48:15 368:10 370:11,15,16 624:4,7,8,9,11 626:14 varying 515:4 466:20 474:14 523:25 49:13,14 50:15 51:3 370:16,18,19,23 371:2 627:15,17,18,21,23,25 vast 217:11 vibration 55:6,9 52:11,18,20,22,23,25 371:6,6,8,10,13 631:21 633:11,13,14 vastly 188:15 Victor 3:20 57:16,17 53:2,5 56:1,8 59:10 373:25 377:20 378:9 633:16,18 636:15,17 vault 447:4,7 448:3 61:17 69:3,3 61:8 62:5,6,7,11,12,14 378:13,14,14,16,17,23 636:18,20,22 639:24 vehemently 623:9 view 128:24 129:15 62:16,16,18,23 63:1,8 379:4,4,6,8,12 381:15 640:1,2,4,6,9 643:1,9 vehicle 286:13 295:8,8 474:6 563:3 581:2 63:8 64:6,20 65:5,6,7 381:16 383:14 386:23 643:11,12,14,16 647:2 295:13,22 298:20 viewed 123:24 65:9,11,14 70:4,8,11 390:16 391:4,4,5,24 649:18 652:16 656:16 300:3,9,14,20,23 viewing 14:8 70:14,15,17,19 71:17 393:19 399:7,12,13,13 656:23 657:1,2,3,5,6 301:4,4 302:4,21,24 viewpoints 474:21 72:18,19,19 73:17,24 399:15,16,19,23,25 657:21 658:1 659:3,5 303:12,13 547:11 views 18:1 226:10 75:25 76:2,3,4,5,7,10 400:1,3,5,8 402:18 659:8

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 57 vote' 37:25 40:15 52:23 321:2,4,5,16,17 339:5 260:12 261:6 264:8 586:24 203:9 205:9,10 207:17 65:7 70:15 84:10,11 352:17 353:17 354:5 270:1,11 302:20 304:2 Water-Based 33:25 43:2 220:2 221:1,1 225:2 91:24 95:2 97:18 361:12,13 362:1,2 330:1,3 333:15,16 43:20 44:1 230:21,21 235:19 99:17 101:13 103:9 364:1 370:21,22 337:6 338:15 341:10 watercraft 87:16 246:7 249:24 269:21 106:8 117:19 125:2 371:11,12 378:19,20 347:10 350:14 351:5 waterproofed 369:25 271:6 281:10,12 131:25 138:4 143:18 378:22 379:10 399:18 351:13,14 357:11,14 waterproofing 363:17 301:14 314:11 315:19 157:13 167:24 175:24 400:6 411:17,18 421:1 364:4 369:20,21 Waters 8:19 374:15,16 329:25 331:12 333:2 211:16 226:20 240:12 421:2,14,15 424:12 377:25 394:25 396:20 537:14,15,25 543:25 334:6,25 338:14,14 253:22 263:6 273:4 428:8,9 430:18,19 396:24 408:18 412:17 543:25 339:12,13 341:14,15 292:1 304:12 338:23 439:12,13 443:25 412:18,20,22 419:14 watt 246:6 345:25 348:8 349:16 352:11 361:21 371:6 449:21,22 450:9,10 422:15 429:5 464:22 watts 245:7 349:17,19,21,25 350:2 379:4 399:25 411:12 452:5 453:6,7 457:22 470:20 477:7,23 478:5 wave 389:23 350:2 351:6 357:17,18 421:9 424:6 428:3 464:10,11 475:17 490:18,19 498:4,7 way 41:11 51:1 62:11,12 357:18 367:17 368:15 430:13 439:7 450:4 476:4,5 479:22,23 505:20 517:8 518:24 93:2 94:18 114:9,10 376:10 389:7,8,10,11 452:25 457:17 464:5 493:15,16 501:9,10 540:7 550:10 553:12 165:2 197:3 203:6 394:19 396:11 401:8 475:24 479:17 493:10 503:24,25 504:11,12 562:1,2,16 605:4 249:17 252:16 314:20 405:6,23 406:21 501:3 504:6 511:6 511:11,12 520:8,9 614:6 615:10 619:23 315:6 324:7 344:18 407:10,17 410:13,16 520:3 526:13 536:18 526:5,6,18,19 536:7 653:4 658:20 659:3,5 348:14 349:23 350:1 417:25 425:6 426:22 545:21 555:25 566:14 536:23,24 545:12,13 659:6,7 660:13 358:16 383:8 389:12 426:25 427:16 429:9 573:4 583:21 589:8 546:1,2 555:17 556:5 Wantagh 29:15 393:6,10 394:13 432:18 440:10 441:15 593:2 596:5 599:13 556:6 560:20 566:6,7 wanted 51:8 61:14 73:18 403:15 405:18 415:14 442:4 456:7,10,19,19 611:20 624:7 627:18 566:20,21 572:21,22 81:12 131:15 174:25 419:3,6 436:15 449:5 456:20,21 461:4 633:14 636:18 640:2 573:9,10 578:18,21 197:20 204:21 207:25 466:6 517:2 536:6 469:12 476:9 489:19 643:12 657:1 579:1 583:14 584:1,2 220:8,13 222:16 251:7 561:17,25 565:8 491:6 492:9,11 495:15 voted 59:17 65:2,3 76:23 589:13,14 593:8 261:6 269:10 396:25 571:18 576:2 579:7 496:25 498:5,5 511:20 104:9 154:16 162:4 596:10,11 599:18,19 397:9 441:24 452:14 609:25 610:13,15 527:20 534:14 535:12 173:13 175:15 176:7 604:16 606:23 608:10 487:22 498:10 557:2 611:5 614:12 623:13 544:9,10 545:17 192:7,9 243:4 266:4 611:25 612:1 619:18 562:15 603:18 613:1 635:12 646:19,23 554:13 561:24 562:25 266:20,22 365:15 620:3 624:12,13 628:1 613:15,15,15,19 647:3 650:13,20 591:19 595:16 607:20 367:3 390:23 391:16 628:2 631:21 633:19 616:20,24 636:1 ways 185:8 352:1 384:12 608:19 612:25 617:16 433:14 437:1 452:16 633:20 636:23,24 wanting 202:20 384:12 613:12 619:3 623:16 628:19 514:22,22 532:15 640:7,8 643:17,18 wants 111:7 200:25 we'll 38:11,15 39:9,23 628:21 629:20 636:3 539:15 542:23 578:15 659:10,13,25 347:6 494:14 53:9 101:3 103:20 647:17 650:18 658:23 602:9 606:21 609:22 voting's 400:7 warehouse 57:6 58:11 115:2 168:10 199:5 658:24 659:1 619:16 634:22 642:25 vu 427:1 279:20 209:20 210:23 227:21 we've 60:16,20 62:9 79:5 649:17 warehouses 482:15 253:2 281:13 286:9 79:13 105:25 154:18 voters 65:2 W warehousing 58:9 288:5 290:2,20 320:18 187:16 189:17 219:12 votes 16:3,14 18:3 19:12 Wade 539:24,24 warn 506:12,13,14 333:2 339:12 361:2 256:15 257:4 286:5 36:8 37:5 39:4 41:20 wait 66:5 238:25 498:10 Warner 6:18 245:20,20 370:11 378:9 391:22 287:2,4 331:14,17 41:20,22 242:4,6 waiting 209:19 253:2 245:21 246:1,3 391:22 399:7 402:24 332:25 333:3 346:9 297:15 343:21 354:8 257:11 290:19 320:15 warns 541:10 407:9 420:15 440:11 389:17 394:9 398:3 411:16 416:12 452:4 361:1 370:10 378:8 warrant 61:7 449:13 455:21 459:24 401:9 479:5 483:10 457:24 464:12 479:25 399:6 420:15 423:18 warranted 447:15 465:4 468:4 470:1 489:20 496:1 514:11 526:7 550:23 449:12 475:6 525:21 488:25 524:2 480:21 481:3 484:17 562:3 563:5 564:15 voting 16:3,5,7,14,15,17 533:5 545:2 555:6 Warrem 10:16 492:5,6 503:3 508:7 513:18 575:18 576:2 579:5 16:18,20,22 36:9,12 556:11 565:21 572:11 Washington 34:12 521:21 524:3 525:22 595:9 600:20 607:12 37:14,23 38:1,6,8,9 583:4 588:25 wasn't 69:23 192:20 526:10 532:5 537:8 621:3 628:21 654:19 40:6,14,17,22,24,25 walk 105:3 207:17 271:16 303:11 539:20 545:3 550:25 654:23 41:9,18,23 42:24 53:3 walk-in 258:25 325:21,22 350:19 555:7 560:23 565:22 weather 372:14 53:4 62:7 63:3 65:12 walked 375:5 654:3 367:2 447:17 496:10 570:23 579:12 585:24 web 604:22 65:13 70:20 72:16,20 Walker 3:7 30:25 31:3 waste 25:4 29:6 448:5 591:8 595:1 604:8 website 13:19 14:5,9 75:20,22,23 76:1 walks 368:2 614:21 Wastewater 34:10 607:13 617:2 626:2 43:8 85:10 107:12 84:16,17 92:4,5,6 95:7 wall 342:7,8 343:11 watch 54:17,18 58:14 635:14 639:10 642:15 120:3 132:22 144:15 95:8 97:24,25 99:23 346:9 436:11 229:18 506:22 648:4 146:12 158:10 169:8 101:18 103:15 106:14 Wallis 34:16 watched 615:13 we're 19:23 25:10 39:4 176:19 270:7 293:2 117:24,25 125:8,10 walls 345:2 446:6,9 watching 615:12 44:17 45:18 48:14 434:17 437:21 132:5,6 136:12 138:9 want 20:5 39:2,2,2 40:5 watchmaker 201:17 49:7 50:1 52:1 60:5 week 190:13 214:18 138:10 140:6,18 47:11,12 56:9 60:21 water 27:10,14,18 54:19 61:3 63:25,25 67:15 437:1 483:15 490:24 143:23,24 152:6 61:1 69:20 72:15 78:8 56:20 57:3,20,24 58:3 69:8,18,24 71:3,4 72:3 532:15 606:21 619:16 157:18,19 168:4,5 79:3,3,14,14 116:22 58:5,6,7,10 59:8 63:24 72:25 74:12 79:2,3,4,5 642:24 649:16 176:4,5 197:25 210:19 124:13 127:21,22 64:1,2,2 69:13 70:1,2 79:9 80:4 84:9 87:3,4 weeks 58:19 180:4 211:2,23 224:25,25 152:11,12 161:2 85:22 91:10 164:20 87:8,10 96:4 105:13 246:21 227:1,2 240:18 249:8 166:20 173:1,22 206:7 216:12 235:11 105:22 115:6 116:1 weigh 616:12 253:13,14 254:12,14 186:13 193:5 195:16 287:8,12 333:13 122:7 124:11 126:9 weighed 18:5 263:12 267:22 272:21 197:2,9,11 203:10,12 350:17 354:1 367:12 137:17 141:2 152:4 weights 466:2 272:22 273:10,11 203:13 232:10 238:10 367:22,23 368:3 434:4 157:7 160:17 163:1 welcome 12:8 19:16 279:16 291:17,18 242:21 247:8 250:13 441:20 442:22 524:1 168:25 181:16 185:5 20:1 26:4 221:13 292:6,7 304:17,18 255:10 256:11 258:2 538:16 544:14 586:18 185:18 197:25 203:6,7 233:6 387:4 652:1

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 58 welcomes 179:25 103:10,11 106:8,10 512:15 515:3,13 518:1 world 21:21 68:16 X well- 21:23 117:19,21 125:2,4 words 53:24 54:10 213:8 140:24 141:10 195:19 x 436:17 well-considered 570:10 131:25 132:2 138:4,6 233:10 313:13 319:24 252:6 277:25 281:18 X1 130:15 went 54:4 207:16 223:15 143:18,20 157:13,15 346:7 389:18 419:23 282:4 284:13 290:1 223:16 269:9 271:22 167:24 168:1 175:24 447:10 490:13 516:14 314:13 350:18 360:12 Y 348:21,23 360:6 176:1 209:25 210:1 work 22:16,21 23:2,20 369:3 389:21 463:17 374:20 396:4 404:18 211:17,19 226:21,23 24:8 31:16 34:8,20 worlds 370:1 Y 346:4 403:10 404:12 404:22 561:14 650:15 237:19 240:12,14 52:10 60:17,23 73:12 worn 335:13 Ya 658:17 weren't 374:25 253:9,10,22,24 256:12 122:23 123:1 145:25 worried 505:4 yards 203:18 West 6:20 32:18 188:19 263:6,8 272:16,17 148:16 149:3 166:12 worries 485:11 556:14 Yay 209:15 211:3 340:3 188:20,21 247:5,5 273:4,7 291:13,15 168:25 180:7 187:9 worry 185:16 650:19 544:24 574:5 249:5 292:2,3 304:12,14 188:25 191:8,10 worse 131:1 257:21 yeah 38:15 39:25 40:1,9 wet 365:10 368:24 319:25 320:24,25 195:12,13 204:1 284:17 65:20 66:2,8 67:2 wet/dry 565:3 321:11,13 338:24 207:12 217:3 220:12 worth 186:24 188:7 71:11,20 74:11,20 white 180:8 339:1 352:11,13 361:7 223:11,20,21,22 260:5 189:2 217:17 256:14 75:14 76:22,22 104:25 who've 509:8 361:8,21,23 370:16,17 261:9 264:10 268:5 346:7 618:3 118:24 157:4 162:1 wholly 123:24 371:6,8 378:14,15 271:4,8,13,13 274:16 worthiness 552:7 170:18 198:17 205:8,9 wide 116:5 231:25 379:4,6 387:24 399:13 278:17 282:13,16 571:16 210:22,25 230:20 233:13 236:1 341:16 399:14 400:1,3 411:12 283:11,17,18 287:5,16 worthy 25:18 427:19 254:4,8 314:19 331:18 342:5 558:8 576:25 411:14 420:22,23 289:22 290:6 299:6 wouldn't 223:3 350:20 331:19,21 333:23 widely 200:20 467:20 421:9,11,24 424:6,8 308:5 312:7 314:1 505:22 509:1 616:22 339:20 369:14 370:7 482:6 428:3,5 430:13,15 324:21 325:8,11,17 616:22 395:20 396:4,23 widespread 386:16 439:7,9 449:18,19 328:22 334:12 346:2 write 137:2 191:12 398:24 399:1 409:24 Wiese 11:14 644:7,9,10 450:4,6 453:1,3 455:6 346:16 356:1 365:2,13 224:17 271:24 508:22 468:12 474:23 476:10 644:18,18 457:18,19 464:5,7 373:11 381:11,24 510:2 477:6,10,18 499:24 Wiginton 47:7 83:20 475:12,13,24 476:1 393:15 394:14,18 writer 419:19 500:4 506:19 537:13 William 3:11 4:5 5:12 479:18,19 493:11,12 395:3 401:17 402:13 writing 48:12 191:9 582:21 636:5 652:7 6:13 43:4 93:24,25 499:16 501:4,6 503:20 415:20 416:6 429:10 419:20 489:14 654:7 658:22 660:10 105:2,4,10,13 169:4 503:22 504:6,8 511:6 469:13 523:21 561:16 written 82:21 83:3 162:9 Yeah.' 505:20 169:14 171:9 175:14 511:8 514:8 520:3,5 561:16 562:6 563:24 163:8,9 167:15 226:14 year 63:19,19 149:17,20 217:2,3 244:8,8 526:2,3,14,15 536:18 579:8 604:18 614:11 256:25 257:8 258:2 150:7 155:3,4,19 301:12,13,18,20,24 536:20 545:8,9,21,23 615:17 618:17 650:16 261:8 274:21 282:13 156:4,13 245:13,14 willing 562:5 555:12,13 556:1,2 653:19 654:12 657:12 288:18 309:8 345:1 257:8 265:25 386:10 wind 389:24 600:19 566:2,3,15,17 572:17 workable 153:24 347:12 443:10 508:5 391:10 395:10,11 winner 26:5 30:11 572:18 573:4,6 583:10 worked 153:11 215:14 509:8 536:7 569:2 482:20 586:8 605:24 wire 311:5 328:4 344:7 583:11,22,23 589:8,10 267:18 271:13 277:16 578:11 605:25 650:11 351:4 369:22 403:2 593:2,4 596:5,7 598:8 277:20 601:19 605:16 wrong 54:22 280:19 year's 20:4 413:10,18 418:25 599:13,15 611:20,22 619:1 645:5 301:23 376:23,24 year-old 360:5 427:14 455:17 456:1 624:7,9 627:18,21,23 worker 343:20 389:11 419:12 485:18 years 21:23 26:2,20 461:1 463:19 466:21 633:14,16 636:18,20 workers 309:4 316:19 505:3 632:24 655:16 27:21 28:14 29:9 30:9 466:25 468:2,2,16 640:2,4 643:12,14 331:1 343:13,16 655:17 30:23 31:21 50:7,10 481:10,24 489:7 657:1,3 345:11,13 349:13 wronged 417:22,23 50:11 64:16 90:3 492:20 499:10 509:17 wishes 66:11 104:19 404:3 411:1 416:20 wrote 193:13 223:15 130:12,25 139:15 514:16 524:8 637:7,16 227:15 228:8,21 426:20 435:24 498:1 234:12 251:18 252:4 141:11 149:17 154:23 wired 248:16 482:21 229:10 264:16 340:8 513:25 588:2 591:15 497:2 610:16 618:8 155:19 179:4 189:1 wires 374:25 466:23,23 480:17,24 521:3,17 592:16 www.depo.com 1:20 206:23 208:13,14 558:15 577:3 629:13 537:4 574:10 working 22:12 38:16 www.nfpa.org/130next 213:22 216:18 217:9 wiring 248:17,17 297:5 withdraw 65:23 195:5 39:3,7 60:17 64:18 120:20 218:11 256:7 269:9 302:3,4 373:15 377:2 204:20 227:11,25 72:3 73:23 74:1,13 www.nfpa.org/1851next 276:25 282:12,14 377:7 382:21 385:9 228:17 264:2,12 340:2 185:8 186:2 188:25 147:8 290:2 313:15 314:2,5 440:16 455:15 466:8 477:1 480:4 520:23 205:14 210:4 212:11 www.nfpa.org/25next 314:19,21 319:23 471:4 482:10 486:10 521:13 574:4 581:16 213:5 224:24 245:23 44:6 338:3,4 347:3 359:2 486:18 487:4 488:15 582:1 254:3,7 256:17 261:18 www.nfpa.org/302next 363:20,22 380:11 488:16,22 489:8,16 woman 349:24 273:21,23 277:3 287:2 86:2 391:7 394:16 396:20 502:22 505:3 528:17 women 346:16 287:3 301:6 308:7 www.nfpa.org/502next 437:9 438:5 444:10 529:2,22 547:12 Woo-hoo 659:15 325:7 328:24 332:22 133:16 461:3 483:6,16 485:21 568:13 600:22,23,24 wood 127:5 341:12,24 343:7,17 www.nfpa.org/58next 509:19 604:18 629:11 601:1,1 613:10,11 word 54:22 60:6 64:13 344:11,20 346:1,8 159:3 639:5 645:2 654:25 614:7 628:25 648:15 306:19 311:25 347:4 347:2 349:25 355:18 www.NFPA.org/654next years' 186:21 383:22 648:17 397:2 517:9 613:6 364:4 657:8 659:11 108:6 yellow 74:5 75:11,12 wiring.' 564:18 617:16 workplace 30:19 34:18 www.nfpa.org/70Next 77:4,10,12,18,25 wisely 364:7 worded 344:18 405:19 329:19 345:16 294:5 78:11,17,19,20 wish 38:1,3 40:17,19 536:6 works 40:6 193:15 www.nfpa.org/801next yellows 77:18 52:23,25 63:8 65:7,9 wording 93:9 109:22 247:22 325:8 558:12 170:2 Yes' 38:2 40:18 52:25 70:15,17 76:10,24 116:25 140:19 141:3 658:25 www.nfpa.org/855next 62:15 65:9 70:17 84:11,13 91:24 92:1 183:7,22 314:19 405:8 workshop 383:8 177:12 72:18 84:13 92:1 95:4 95:2,4 97:19,21 99:17 405:24,25 429:3 workshops 276:24 Wyoming 383:21,23 97:20 99:19 101:15 99:19 101:13,15 459:23 463:1 506:17 workspace 341:20 103:11 106:10 117:21

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 59

125:4 132:2 138:6 489:9,12,21,22 490:1 110.3(a) 459:23 532:23 534:3,6 572:24 1961-1 145:12 143:20 157:15 168:1 490:3 492:12 528:18 111 125:12 1406 454:4,7 457:10,17 1970s 130:13 176:1 210:1 211:18 528:18,21 529:14 112 291:20 458:7,10 461:14 1975 444:15 482:2 226:22 240:14 253:10 530:25 531:12,23,23 1123 504:18,20 510:19 463:23 464:4 1982 358:14 253:24 263:8 272:17 560:21 562:10 578:16 511:5 141 101:22 1985 159:21 273:6 291:15 292:3 578:21 603:25 621:11 1126 443:14 142 78:5 292:9 362:3 1987 31:15,16,18 304:14 320:25 321:12 641:23 649:24 1182 135:6 137:19 142:5 144 221:4 226:4 199 138:12 536:25 338:25 352:13 361:8 1's 562:13 1192 134:19 137:3 1445 450:20,21 1990 25:24 361:23 370:17 371:8 1,000 386:12 440:16 12 151:18 152:3,8 1470 450:19 451:1 1991 31:5 32:15 378:15 379:6 399:14 1.1 213:8 156:14 157:8 256:10 452:21,25 1992 29:20 411:14 420:23 421:11 1.10.21(A)(2) 318:12 297:20 299:7,16 148 157:21 244:18,18 1993 30:18,20 424:8 428:5 430:15 1.2 240:3 300:18 302:9 303:21 1482 575:5,7 583:21 1994 33:16,18,22 439:9 449:19 450:6 1.3 222:14,25 223:3 438:5 472:21 473:2 15 118:10 163:9 168:13 1995 34:14 453:2 457:19 464:7 279:7 540:19 549:14,17 201:1 229:18 293:11 1996 26:15,18 27:15,19 475:13 476:1 479:19 1.6.2 15:22 550:1 559:15,18 563:7 339:18 346:18 380:9 29:17,21,25 32:25 493:12 501:5 503:21 1.6.2(b) 36:25 564:12,13 569:24 383:21 469:1,11,20 33:1,6 504:8 511:8 520:5 1:25 229:19 570:2 577:21,25 628:3 494:13 538:6 541:20 1997 27:4,13,13,14,17 526:3,15 536:20 545:9 1:40 229:19 12's 563:3 566:22 654:23 29:3 30:20 32:8,14 545:23 555:13 556:2 10 28:7 30:20 36:18 12-0 539:16 15-minute 490:13 33:25 566:3,16 572:18 573:6 108:14,18 117:8,18 12-gauge 116:1 15(A) 641:22 1998 31:14 34:19 583:11,23 589:10 118:22,25 148:23 12.00 366:14 150 372:10 403:11 1999 22:4 26:11 27:13 593:4 596:7 599:15 201:5 282:14 293:11 120 95:10 222:15 354:19 1502 481:11,13 484:25 27:14 28:10,11,25 611:22 624:9 627:20 307:18,23 308:3,5 380:9 548:11 492:18 493:4,10 29:2,7 32:14,15 33:13 627:22 633:16 636:20 338:4 345:14 356:4,4 120- 303:2 152 138:11 350:6 640:4 643:14 657:3 373:25 395:16 422:12 1200 256:10 341:16 154 546:3 629:19 1st 180:3 659:5 422:20 425:24 426:3,4 345:25 401:15 408:3 1569 534:12 yesterday 59:16 173:12 429:19,23 437:8 461:3 1206 196:17 1590 567:8,14,17 568:1 2 315:3 346:25 615:13 469:1,7 470:15,16 1218 660:5,6 573:3 2 28:5 98:21 109:21 Yogi 427:1 474:12 475:19 504:2 122 379:12 16 37:20,21 40:10,12 119:12 293:9 331:5 York 29:15 132:19,19,19 526:22,25 596:12 123 633:21 293:12 443:22 468:13 353:17,18 355:9,12 158:7 187:11 188:19 601:15 613:7,13,14,24 124 99:25 520:10 593:9 630:17 359:20 364:20,25 188:19,20 199:25 613:25 125 160:10,16 163:2 638:14,19,20,21 365:24 368:19,21 you.' 506:20 10- 360:4 245:6 355:23 641:14,18 642:3,13 373:5 375:12 381:5,10 young 349:23,24,24 10-2 436:3 128 645:5 647:20 647:13,17,19,22 655:5 382:18 390:23 391:5 10% 56:25 129 132:7 655:22 656:5 393:17 402:7,11 Z 10,000 93:10 13 22:1 45:20,25 46:3,3 16's 629:8 404:24 406:7 407:1 zero 123:3 220:17 100 179:4 213:22 263:13 46:10,11,17,22 47:18 163 143:25 415:23 416:4 436:17 394:22 579:1 263:24 268:8 305:24 49:21 51:20 64:1 166 221:5 226:5 277:11 443:10 481:18 485:15 Zieman 11:10 608:8,9 308:19 318:19 326:13 67:12 242:4 345:14 167 457:24 485:19 486:4,11,21 619:23 620:1,1 326:25 335:23 406:18 370:24 468:12 549:1 169 647:20 488:14,20 489:9,12,21 Zimmerman 11:19 422:20,22 470:21 555:19 585:14,17,21 17 293:12 392:17,19 489:22,23 490:2,3 652:22,23 494:16 541:14 543:15 590:22,25 591:4 449:24 468:13 504:13 492:9,13,22 517:6,7 zone 123:19 659:17 594:18,21 597:19,22 540:9 560:20 578:15 531:13,18 540:19 100% 52:2,7 131:6 618:18 625:16 578:21 603:25 621:11 543:2,12 0 100,000 217:21 245:8 130 37:11 87:11 109:8 17(A) 641:22 642:6 2,000 473:1 101 109:7 110:19 120:2,15,20,22,25 170 65:14 0 471:2 578:18 2.7 66:13 145:19 227:17 102 123:23 168:7 399:20 123:14 128:14,16 173 264:25 265:2 273:4 228:10,23 229:12 1033 393:24 132:9 18 293:13 494:25 495:5 1 264:18 340:10 480:19 104 437:13 130-1 42:17,18,18 121:5 501:11 502:13,18 481:1 521:4,19 537:6 1 12:4 22:1 23:17,19 105 118:1 273:12 124:17 550:23 578:18,23 573:20 574:12 24:15 109:7 110:19 107 371:13 130-2 125:16 131:12 579:1 20 1:8 12:3 15:21 16:2 133:24 134:1 137:23 108 605:2 132 624:15 18(A) 642:6 28:6 36:19 37:1 90:3 138:3 170:11,13 109 240:19 135 352:18 180 77:16,17 98:3 119:10 230:7 313:15 175:11,23 192:22,22 11 30:18 108:15,18 138 231:6,8 239:16 1800s 650:13 355:23 380:10,10 193:11,12 213:23 117:9,18 242:14 273:1 240:11 182 642:13 391:7 395:10,10 215:16 218:12 223:17 313:14 356:5 365:14 1381 379:23 380:1 183 106:16 536:25 401:20,21 412:11 244:2 249:23 268:4 566:9 589:15 640:9 381:19 399:25 1851 37:11 146:12 147:1 483:6 494:12 527:11 276:4 277:18 279:6 110 496:13 1382 465:12,15 468:11 147:8,10 149:2,15 538:6 541:15,17,20 280:2 284:2,8 296:19 110.21 309:19 312:23 468:12 475:23 476:16 157:23 586:7,15 296:24 297:1,21 298:4 328:7 334:8 417:6 476:19 479:10,17 1851-1 147:13 155:6 20-plus 315:7 298:19 301:14 309:15 419:5 495:14 14 31:5 58:13 421:4 157:1 20% 148:23 316:25 317:17 318:13 110.21(A) 327:4 443:22 455:17 456:8 19 125:21,24 131:13,24 200 461:2 494:16 502:4 326:8 327:1,16,20 110.21(A)(2) 639:7 466:19 467:2 468:1,19 282:6 526:8,20 545:15 646:20 342:25 343:3,4,23 110.26 344:12 468:21,22,23,25 469:3 1910.303 329:18 200-pound 164:22 391:10,21 422:12,13 110.26(C)(2) 341:18 469:6,8,17,19,20 192 633:21 2000 26:10 27:2,3,9 28:9 422:14 423:12 443:10 343:5 350:8 472:19,22 473:1 474:7 1950s 369:17 29:2,3 31:11,14 32:11 466:22 485:19 486:4 110.26(E)(2) 349:16 474:9,13 528:13 530:6 1961 37:12 144:15 145:3 32:12,23,24 471:2 486:11,21 488:14,20 110.3 459:16 530:21 531:15,20 145:7,9,14 2001 27:11,12,19 31:8,8

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 60

2002 29:7 482:11 484:5 208 125:12 243:12,19 244:13,20 541:4,14 542:25 157:12 275:15 277:6,9 490:22 21 150:24 659:18 246:22 247:10 248:23 545:20 573:11 586:8 370 95:9 504:2 2003 27:7,14 28:8 29:24 210 404:8 249:6,17 250:20 303:3 599:20 372 428:11 556:8 30:5,6 32:21 34:10 210.15 407:18 355:21 437:13 601:20 30-70 519:20 373 555:18 2004 26:15 29:21,24 210.8(A)(5) 366:22 602:6 603:14,19 608:6 30,000 346:18 374 65:16 30:5,7 210.8(B) 543:16 544:4 250-24(C) 602:4 300 87:18 89:13 650:23 376 424:13 2005 27:15 28:7,12 29:6 211 53:5 250-28 602:4 300.5(G) 446:24 452:14 380 599:21 31:8,9,10,16 34:1 2147 644:11,14 656:19 250.104(B) 434:6 452:16 381 511:13 2006 28:6 32:21 33:21 657:1 658:3 250.24 607:24 608:1 300.50(F) 452:3,15 382 566:23 2007 26:18 27:7 28:6 215.10 407:19 250.25 601:21 607:23 301 87:4 89:9,15 385 352:20 439:15 29:3,3 34:15 45:21,25 218 400:9 250.92 601:22 604:3,4 302 37:11 85:9,23 86:2,4 386 399:19 46:11,21 47:18,23 219 144:1 636:25 251 78:3 87:15,17 88:14 89:6 387 475:18 526:20 50:9 51:23,24 380:17 2196 139:14,14 140:21 26 88:18 96:16 421:16 90:5,11 91:4 96:12 388 593:10 482:19 141:23 142:12 428:10 104:15 106:19,21 39 361:15 2008 29:21 33:4,8 34:11 22 206:23 453:21 260 161:3 302- 98:20 39% 380:21 433:14 22% 380:19 262 84:18 157:20 302-1 86:7 91:18 96:4 391 589:16 2009 29:6 31:12 34:9 22.27 445:16 263 487:13 302-2 92:12 94:20 398 632:5 431:22 220 194:12 27 65:2 213:7 302-3 95:14 97:10 399 240:20 201.8(B) 544:18 2225 533:3 534:2,5,13 272 38:21 302-4 98:6 99:10 2010 26:14 32:10,12 535:11,14,16 274 106:15 546:3 302-5 100:4 101:7 4 160:4 228 132:7 277 404:13 302-6 101:25 102:23 4 22:1 55:5 92:16,19 2011 28:10 45:22 432:1 23 42:20 121:3,6,10 28-word 265:10 103:2 94:21 95:1 136:7 483:10 655:9 124:18 125:1 294:13 280 212:3 302-7 103:21 104:22 145:18 172:24 173:18 2012 28:3,23 29:1 30:17 295:2 453:21 546:14 282 39:17 227:4 105:19 174:5,13 175:4 356:4 32:21 547:4 556:18 567:3 283 98:1 254:24 255:1 305 440:10,14 442:2 412:13 436:17 485:16 2013 27:12 32:7 33:20 230 457:24 616:2 623:12 263:1,5 549:1 552:11 557:23 485:16,17,18 489:24 2014 28:5 31:19 45:25 230-70 616:15 623:13 285 612:2 561:20 569:20 576:15 490:2 492:10,23 196:14 207:22 230-86 623:19 287 254:15 579:22 601:14 602:17,23,25 2015 26:13 30:1 33:3 230.2(A)(5) 601:4 288 450:13 307 168:6 493:17 608:11 610:13 615:10 223:20 287:5 230.40 601:5 288-3376 1:20 31 103:17 521:1 620:4,22 622:5,13 2016 23:18 26:17 27:11 230.70 615:21 28th 265:25 310.16 466:6 471:1 646:2 30:20 180:11 215:11 230.71.' 613:21 29 140:6 329:18 310.17 466:6 471:7 4' 171:1,4 276:19 380:17 230.82 601:7 2935 307:14 309:14,16 310.3 472:20 4.1.6.1 88:7 94:14,14 2017 30:3 122:22 196:15 230.85 613:14 309:18,24 310:13 310.3(A) 472:21 4.12 258:17 207:23 312:5 317:24 230.95 407:19 323:22 415:14 417:1 315 612:12,15 623:25 4.4.1 237:14 318:3,16 325:23 231 541:18 417:16 624:7 4.4.4.2 414:1 326:11 353:23 355:24 233 92:8 659:18 297 400:8 316 211:24 4.4.4.8.3.1 414:7 363:4 372:6 380:15 235 92:7 317 583:16 4.4.8.1(D) 414:10 538:4 544:17,19 237.70 614:2,8 3 32 304:19 453:8 556:7 4.4.8.3.1(A) 266:14 652:15 653:8 239 227:3 3 22:1 55:4,13 86:10,12 32% 380:20 4.4.9.2 266:8 2018 14:11 29:22,23 24 42:11 100:19 150:24 91:19,23 109:21 230:9 320 101:20 4.5.3 15:17 204:21 205:2 207:20 151:19,24 154:16 297:10 401:6,24 326 254:17 4.5.3.7 145:18 213:24 223:16,17 157:8 162:4 453:21 409:14 442:13,17,18 327 464:12 4.6 15:17 244:22,23,23 257:23 584:3 442:19 443:1,3,17,19 328 643:19 4.6.2 242:13 2019 1:5,8 12:2,3,8 240 349:19 353:25 443:22,23,25 446:21 33 162:3 272:24 321:7 4.7 15:14,18 13:20 14:4,12 19:14 354:17 358:17 422:18 451:20,24,25 452:1,13 3314 530:23 4.9 258:16,18 19:19 20:1 30:17 34:2 498:10 478:19 485:16,17,17 3318 530:24 4.9.3 258:22 34:3,9 35:2 36:19 37:7 240.2 422:18,21 485:24 489:24 490:2 3330 442:19 4.9.3.2 258:19 43:22 85:18 107:21 240.4(D) 468:24 470:16 492:10,23 531:25 337 640:10 4:20 339:19 119:8,10 120:12 133:7 240.6(A) 469:11 542:12 612:23 625:20 338 421:3 40 66:22 67:1,10,21 70:7 144:24 146:23 158:20 240.88 498:11 499:15 631:9,13,14,16,22 339 453:10 70:14 76:9 123:12 169:18 177:4 180:4 243 84:20 635:4,8,9 652:25 34 65:1 165:12 191:18 220:17 230:5,7 293:22 331:10 246 624:14 3's 629:6 342 526:7 223:14 286:19 314:2,4 346:13 412:9,11 527:9 25 18:3 37:11 43:7,25 3% 380:20 345 449:23 629:2 527:11 530:10 617:11 44:5,7 45:22 46:4,13 3.00 385:3 346 176:6 573:12 40% 56:25 660:13,15 661:14 50:20 58:14,17 59:2 3.1.3 443:11 347 99:24 40,000 63:18 2019-1 37:21,22 40:11 60:1,1 61:5,16 67:11 3.2 247:25 348 41:3 400 245:6 386:10 553:13 40:13 68:2,22 69:9,24 84:22 3.3.22 60:11 349 476:6 596:13 2020 160:8 270:7 288:11 88:8 130:25 141:11 3.3.8 60:2 35 186:21 208:14 256:7 400,000 515:10 296:17 316:15,17 172:18 347:2 424:14 3.7 247:25 35.00 385:2 401 501:11 520:10 319:8 391:21 401:25 604:18 30 58:19 130:11 208:13 350F 440:11 402 362:5 379:14 528:14 559:8 601:12 25-1 44:10,25 45:4 52:14 230:24 314:4 339:14 353 421:17 403 504:13 613:8 618:21 25-2 53:10,14 64:22 339:17 359:2 363:20 355 566:8 584:4 405 273:14 2021 149:20 249:21 25-3 65:18 66:4 363:22 386:10 406:14 356 118:2 479:24 572:23 408 53:7 517:16 286:6,17,23 431:23 25-4 70:6 408:1 409:15 411:23 628:4 41 396:20 2022 179:11 180:1 25-5 80:6 471:4 509:19 537:18 364 545:14 410 212:14,17 225:20 181:18 184:1 205:18 25% 259:1,3,14 537:21 538:6,10,23 369 430:22 226:20 2023 409:9 250 241:19,23 242:16,17 540:6,10,11,20,24 37 147:18 155:9 157:2 411 411:20

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 61

414 371:15 140:1,18 141:14 142:1 302:19 549:18 559:19 70-23 42:14 464:15,18 70E 345:15,15 4161 90:21 144:3 560:6 570:3 578:1 465:4 476:9,11 479:9 71 321:18 323:3,6 326:3 42 53:15,17 64:23 65:6 502-1 133:21 137:22 625-60 550:3 70-24 42:14 464:18 326:6 330:19 337:5 202:3 430:20 502-2 138:15 142:16 625.1 550:3 558:20 465:1,3,7 472:17 338:23 464:12 553:15 42% 136:11 143:10 564:16 577:11 473:6 623:13 431 41:1 503 321:19 625.2 558:18 577:10 70-25 480:22 72 67:12 68:10,11,12,15 439 263:15 51 176:6 625.5 569:3 70-26 481:7 492:17 68:17,19 69:7,10,12 444 439:23,25 450:3 516 640:17,20 642:4 625.60 295:21 548:9 493:3 69:13 172:11,18,19 445 450:21,22 451:1 643:5,11 558:18 575:15 576:24 70-27 493:20 500:21 259:10 553:16 623:13 452:21,25 517.17 407:22 577:10 578:13 70-28 501:14 721 454:17 446 103:16 52 244:2 63 67:8 70-29 504:16,18 510:19 725 629:1,6,25 632:7,10 448 232:11 528 45:19 63,000 201:2 70-3 42:8 305:2 574:17 634:23 636:3 44831(A) 242:22 529 321:6 65 339:6 574:25 725-34 467:2 45 21:23 53 292:18 654 37:11 107:12,24 70-30 511:16,20 598:10 735 630:16 450 88:10 89:8 91:2 531 277:3 108:5,8 110:2,11 70-31 520:13,14 737 214:13 303:10 454 178:1,3 197:23 534 220:25 226:1,1 116:5 118:5 197:24 70-32 521:9,15 75 91:1 241:3 244:13,17 198:5 199:21 211:16 54 160:11,15,21,24 199:21 70-33 521:24 245:2 253:16,21 457 386:11 161:16 162:12,22,24 654-1 108:11 117:7 70-34 536:10 305:15 322:10 466:16 46 63:19 511:13 163:6,22,25 164:11 68 250:19 257:18 476:6 70-35 537:2 471:3 468 38:20 292:11 165:11 166:25 167:17 651:9 70-36 42:8 305:1 537:11 75-34 527:21 47 202:4 411:19 202:22 431:18,22 69 159:13 166:16 167:12 70-37 556:10 750,000 214:3 217:6 48 245:5 432:5,16 434:2,12,15 167:23 250:19 257:18 70-38 566:25 7509 637:8,11 638:21 480 245:7 248:7 346:4 434:16,23 435:18 6th 37:6 70-39 573:14,16,19 639:21 640:1 404:12 438:12 70-4 305:5 306:23 321:9 7517 624:21,23 627:11 482 361:14 542 304:20 7 70-40 42:9 305:3 573:25 627:17 484 339:8 546 253:15 7 22:1 102:4,7 103:3,9 574:7 7522 584:9,11 587:17 49 45:3,6 52:15,22 548 211:7 291:19 646:2 103:25 104:2 105:20 70-41 584:7,9 588:24 588:25 589:7 636:11 55 182:14 479:24 106:7 339:15 378:24 70-42 589:18,20 592:19 7584 589:21,23 592:20 490 517:13,16 551 542:13 543:4 411:25 455:1 459:7 70-43 593:12 595:22 593:1 497 378:23 551.2 539:11 541:13 467:13 478:17,22 70-44 596:15,18 599:4 7586 593:21,24 595:23 499 370:23 56 160:12,22 161:6,17 483:25 484:14 487:9 70-45 599:23 611:10 596:4 162:7,8,23,24 163:6 539:3,16 540:3,13 70-46 612:6 623:24 7588 596:19,22 599:5,13 5 163:25,25 164:11 622:4 70-47 624:18,21 627:10 76 531:11 5 36:23 95:18,21 97:11 165:4,12 166:5 202:22 7-17 431:3 70-48 628:7 633:6 760 629:1,6,25 632:7,10 97:18 98:10,13 99:11 400:23 7.1.4.1 110:2 70-49 633:24 635:23 636:3,6 99:16 241:6 275:5 560 272:23 70 21:24 37:11 42:7 70-5 321:23 322:7 7609 530:23 531:11 293:10 433:6,9,13,16 57 400:23,24 179:8 183:8 190:7 330:17 335:5 337:4 7656 400:22 434:2 485:16,17,17,18 58 37:11 158:9,23 159:2 202:24 204:10 215:16 70-50 637:4 639:20 7657 401:2 411:6,11 489:24 490:2 492:10 159:5,21 160:5 161:8 222:14 268:4 277:18 70-51 640:13 643:4 413:11,13 421:8 492:24 527:13 601:15 162:11,22,25 163:9,22 293:1,25 294:4,7 70-52 644:6 656:18 7676 371:21,23 374:11 601:18 607:21 608:20 164:1 167:15 168:9 305:16 322:9 431:19 659:18 379:3 609:4 649:24 58-1 159:8 166:15 453:12 480:22 583:17 70-6 339:10,24 340:5 7697 353:3,9 356:17 5% 47:19 55:17,19 56:18 167:11 604:22 659:20 70-7 340:13,14,18 361:19 362:12,16 56:25 5th 37:6 70- 361:17 480:14 70-8 352:23 371:4 50 50:9,11 160:22,24,25 520:25 636:10 70-9 362:8 366:20 371:1 770 629:1,8,17 632:7 223:15 224:9 241:23 6 70-1 294:10 295:5 304:5 70.1 554:19,20,20 7705 353:5,10 356:18 242:16 243:19 244:13 6 100:8,10 101:8,12 351:18 562:13 70.12 400:21 361:20 362:13,17 244:20 246:9,10,22 138:20,23 143:11,17 70-10 371:18 379:1 70.14 424:21 371:5 247:22 248:4,8 249:2 204:18 295:9,18 296:5 70-11 379:17 399:22 70.28 501:16 7736 466:19 249:16,20,24 250:9 439:14 454:25 455:2,7 416:7 70.30 511:20 7739 466:19 252:9,12 259:19 285:4 456:2,3 459:8,12 70-12 400:17 410:10 70.32 521:12 7746 642:7 285:6 303:3 314:5 463:13 467:14,18,21 411:5 70.33 522:2 7776 546:19,23 550:23 355:23 372:10 397:22 467:23 468:18 469:16 70-13 413:7 421:6 70.4 305:17 555:24 487:16 538:6,10 470:17 471:1 474:11 70-14 421:21 423:17 70.43 593:21 7783 556:19,23 557:3 540:10,11,20,24 541:5 478:18,22 483:25 70-15 424:18 427:11 70.5 340:2 560:20 566:13 541:14 542:25 544:18 484:4 485:14 601:8 70-16 428:15,17 700 592:4 7796 578:14 645:24 623:12 70-17 430:25 438:25 701 591:20 7798 578:16 50% 149:1 6,600 386:8 70-18 439:19 450:2 702 591:20 7799 578:18 500 634:8,13 635:24 6:30 400:15 70-19 450:16 452:20 702.5 597:1 78 361:20 636:11,17 60 81:1 84:9 466:16 70-2 42:7 305:1 546:7,9 703.2 487:9 780 433:19 434:23 435:7 500,000 201:2 471:2 474:12 494:15 546:11 703.3 487:13 437:9,13 438:4,6 5000 109:8 110:20 502:3 630:16 634:22 70-20 42:10,14 453:22 7036 540:5 7800 578:21 501 533:5 628:11,13 600 403:11,11 466:24,24 465:5 472:23 473:5 705 600:16 603:2 616:16 7801 578:24 631:16 633:7,13 601 486:23 474:8 480:2,15 705-11(D) 601:24 7891 294:17,20 304:6,11 501.10 535:15 6025.60 575:21 576:8 70-21 42:14 453:21,24 705.11 612:23 79 258:16 502 37:11 122:23 123:16 603 486:24,25 457:9 705.11(B) 611:1,4 7974 424:21,23 427:12 124:10 132:22 133:10 603.1.3 487:3 70-22 42:14 458:2 705.11(D) 610:4,15 428:2 133:15,18 136:9,11 625 297:20 302:10,14,16 463:22 708 591:20 7979 528:2,5 529:25

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019 Atkinson-Baker, Inc. www.depo.com Page 62

536:11,18 850 184:15 198:10 256:8 90-2 295:9,25 296:5 7th 37:7 851 184:16 90% 130:12 855 37:11 176:19 177:6 90.1 547:14 8 177:12,14 179:10,16 90.1(A) 297:24 8 28:11 293:10 361:18 179:19 180:22 181:3 90.2 302:12 558:20 639:1,6 645:1 648:1 181:23 182:21 183:10 577:12 8.1 541:20 183:11,19,20,22 90.2-A 553:18 8.3.7.2.3 56:3 189:10,15 192:9 90.2(A) 296:15 297:2 80 501:20 193:12,14,23 194:18 90.2(A)(6) 297:15 800 1:20 629:1,17,18,18 195:6,10 199:6 200:14 90.3 309:20 539:1 632:7 641:25 642:1 200:23 201:11 213:14 543:22 639:6 646:12 647:21 214:20 215:11,23 900 12:19 35:13 202:2 800-182 642:9 216:2,19 218:14 90A 553:18 629:12,15 800-182(A) 642:14 219:20 223:21 224:17 630:10 800.182(A) 641:23 229:18 231:19 233:23 912 178:1,3 211:16 800.3(G) 639:8 235:5 241:21 244:25 95-40 216:7 800.48 652:15 245:16,22 247:7,15 95-40A 187:12 801 37:11 169:8,21 250:3 252:1 256:8,24 95% 54:12 441:6 170:1,4 176:8 184:15 258:17 265:9 266:25 9540A 257:15 801-1 170:7,10 175:11 268:9 270:8,10 273:24 9548 248:22 8014 641:21 274:15,21,23 275:5 96 612:3 804 649:4 276:5,8,19 278:5,19 979 638:20 804-48 645:22 278:25 279:3,6,6,12 98 109:8 8048 428:20,22 430:12 279:17 280:1 281:3 99 450:11 805 629:2,18 642:2 283:17,25 284:7 286:6 9th 661:14 645:22 286:13,16 287:23,25 805-179 645:15,25 288:15,16,18 292:13 805-182 642:8 855- 254:23 272:25 805.179 649:2,4 855-1 177:17 180:17 805.182(A) 642:6 195:6 805.48 649:5 855-10 263:18,23 264:14 8072 305:19 306:2 317:2 855-11 264:22 321:10 855-12 273:17 291:23 8074 421:25 422:2 855-2 212:6 225:19 423:14,18 424:5 855-3 227:8,12 808 431:4,6,16 432:15 855-4 227:21,22 228:5 434:10 438:25 439:6 855-5 228:14,18 81-59 611:11 855-6 229:3,7 8104 340:19,25 341:6 855-7 231:2 239:15 351:19 352:11 855-8 240:24 247:6 8119 353:5,10 356:18 855-9 254:20 262:25 361:20 8560 331:7 8120 362:13,17 371:5 8597 556:20,24 566:14 8159 600:3,6 611:18 86 623:13 8164 521:12 8608 600:4,8 611:12,19 8172 511:21,23 514:2 868 257:2 519:21 520:2 869 257:2 8187 493:25 494:2 87 211:7 495:20 500:22 501:3 875 220:25 221:2 226:2 8189 501:18,20 504:6 275:15 277:4 820 629:2,18 888 531:9 8222 522:2,4 526:12 89 493:17 830 629:2,19 655:22 656:7,7 9 833 245:7 9 25:24 108:15,18 117:9 8385 546:20,24 555:25 117:18 159:10 254:24 84 87:25 90:6 293:10 487:9 507:13 840 629:19 654:15 655:7 507:16 512:22,25 656:11 513:3 514:7 516:23 840.160 647:24 648:2 517:7 523:14,17,20,23 649:1 643:20 840.48 646:20 647:21 9-1-1 12:17 35:10 648:12 652:15 90 69:18,21 70:2 127:9 841 646:2 296:19 297:10 346:10 841-60 646:1 346:11 466:17 471:3 841.60 653:7,20 560:5 562:14 565:7 844 221:3 629:15 637:1 85-0-1 186:19 90- 68:6

Audio Transcription June 20, 2019