REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT
Douglas, Tuesday, June 16, 1970
Present: The Governor (Sir Peter April. The Local Government and Stallard, K.C.M.G., C.V.O., M.B.E.). In Douglas (Braddan and Onchan Drain- the Council: The Lord Bishop (the age) Act, 1970. Right Rev. George Eric Gordon, M.A.), the Attorney-General (Mr. D. D. Lay, T.D.). Sir Ralph Stevenson, G.C.M.G., Messrs. J. B. Bolton, J. H. Nicholls, BILL FOR SIGNATURE O.B.E., C. :C. McFee. J. C. C. Nivison, The Governor: There is one Bill for H. H. Radcliffe, T. F. Corkhill, with Mr. signature; the Onchan Village District W. B. Kennaugh, Clerk to the Council. (Birch Hill) Estate Bill, If hon. In the Keys: The Speaker (Mr. H. C. members will agree we will continue Kerruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. R. J. G. with our business during the signature. Anderson. 11. D. C. MacLeod, E. N. It was agreed. Crowe, R. E. S. Kerruish• P. Radcliffe, Miss J. C. C. Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs. P. A. Spittall. W. E. Quayle, J. R. Greer, T. C. Faragher, A. Sim- PAPERS LAID BEFORE cocks, G. T. Crellin, C. L. P. Vereker, THE COURT ,1, .E. Callister. T. A. Corkish, J. J. Bell, E. C. Irving, C. E. Burke, G. V. H. The Governor: Item 3. I call upon the Kneale, G. A. Devereau, R. MacDonald, Clerk to lay papers. P. .G. Hislop, Sir Henry Sugden, K.B.E., The Clerk: I lay before the Court:— C.B.. D.S.O., with Mr. T. E. Kermeen, Betting Act. 1970—Betting Act, 1970 Clerk to Tynwald. (Appointed Day) (No. 2) Order, 1970. Isle of Man Diseases of Animals (Prevention) Acts, 1948 to 1969—Cats and Dogs (Prohibition of Importation) APOLOGY FOR ABSENCE Order. 1970. Police (Isle of Man) Act, 1962-1sle The Governor: I have apologies for of Man Police Pay and Allowances absence from the learned Deemster, Determination, 1970. who has a bad cold. National Health Service Contribu- tions ('Isle of Man) Act, 1958—National Health Service Contributions Order, 1970. ANNOUNCEMENT OF Highway Act, 1927—Highway (Races ROYAL ASSENT and Entertainments) Act, 19621—Laxey The Governor: In accordance with Wheel (Re-opening Celebrations) Order, the terms of Section 2 of the Acts of 1970. Viking Festival Order, 1970. Tynwald (Emergency Promulgation) Annual Reports —Annual Report of Act of, 1016, I have to inform this hon. the Isle of Man Electricity Board for Court that the Royal Assent was given the year ended 31st March, 1969. to the following Acts on the 28th of Annual Report of the Public Analyst for
Apology for Absence. —Announcement of Royal Assent, —Bill for Signature. — Papers Laid Before the Court. 1774 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 10, 1970 the year ended 31st December, 1969. Majesty's Government by me in a Twelfth Summary Report of the Income letter dated the 23rd April, 1970, and Tax Commission. addressed to the Permanent Under Local Government Board's Approval Secretary of State for the Home to Petitions— Department. To the third, none as yet. Approval dated 15th May, 1970, to the The Speaker: May ask a supplemn- following Petitions— tary, sir ? (1) Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses The Governor: Yes. of the Borough of Douglas for approval The Speaker: Will Your Excellency of the sale to Messrs. Maningtons express to the appropriate transmitting Limited of a plot of land, part of the authority in the United Kingdom the Pulrose Estate, for the sum of £7511, need for the expedition of both Tyn- such land to be utilised as a car park wald representations and a delivery of for the Quarterbridge Hotel; an answer thereto ? (2)Port Erin Village Commissioners The Governor: 1 shall first of all for approval of the sale of 117 square consult the Select Committee which yards of land at Station Road, Port this hon. Court elected to deal with the Erin, for the sum of £60 to the Trustees Common Market, because I would not of Port Erin Methodist Church. like to queer their pitch in their dis- Approval dated 12th May, 1970, to cussions with the Chancellor of the the following Petition— Duchy of Lancaster. (3) Onchan Village Commissioners The Speaker; Your Excellency, may I for authority to borrow £5,000 for the ask a further question ? purpose of providing a house and The Governor: Yes. garage for the Warden of the Social The Speaker: Is Your Excellency Services' Elderly Persons Residential aware that the decisions of Tynwald Scheme at Second Avenue, Onchan. override the activities of Select Com- mittees, sir ? The Governor: I said I would consult that Committee 'before pledging myself ACTION TAKEN ON COMMON to a course of action. MARKET RESOLUTION` QUESTION BY THE SPEAKER The Speaker: Thank you. The Governor: Questions. Number 1, the hon. Mr. Speaker. The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg RABIES BAN—QUESTION BY leave to ask: (I) On what date was the THE SPEAKER text of the resolution of this hon. Court The Governor: Question number 2. made on the 21st April, 1970, and The hon. Mr. Speaker. relating to the Common Market con- The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg veyed to the Council of Ministers of the to ask the chairman of the Isle of Man European Community in terms of such Board of Agriculture and Fisheries: resolution ? (2) Through what channels Whereas the United Kingdom authori- was this declaration of Tynwald sub- ties have now completely relaxed the mitted ? (3) What reply has been ban on the movement of cats and dogs received from the Council of Ministers in England, Scotland and Wales imposed or from any department of the United as a result of the Camberley rabies Kingdom Government ? incident, will you consult with the The Governor: The answer to the first United Kingdom Ministry of Agricul- part is I have no information as yet. To ture. Fisheries and Food on the the second part, the text of the practical possibility of a similar relaxa- resolution was conveyed to Her tion 'with regard to the Isle of Man in
Action Taken of Common Market Resolution—Question by the Speaker. - Rabies Ban—Question by the Speaker, TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1775 respect of dogs and cats other than come forward and put forward its those coming from countries in which findings we do not think it would be the disease of rabies is endemic ? desirable nor in the best interests of The Governor: The chairman of the the Isle of Man to remove our Board of Agriculture. restriction. The Speaker: Your Excellency, may Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, it seems I ask a supplementary ? to he perfectly true, sir, that even the The Governor: Yes. best of us can make mistakes. (Hear, hear•) Even in the first part of the The Speaker: Is it not a fact .that the question from the hon. Speaker, it is Newmarket instance to which you not quite correct, sir; no restrictions referred proved to be a damp squib ? have been removed in the United It was an unconfirmed suspicion that Kingdom. As far as the dogs in the there might be rabies in an alsatian; it Camberley area are concerned restric- was never confirmed that the incident tions have been lifted, but in the New- could prove there was no rabies and as market area restrictions are still im- it is quite likely that that ban will be posed. As far as the Isle of Man and lifted in the very near future. the lifting the restrictions we have been in principle remains the same. If and when negotiation with Eire. Northern Ireland United Kingdom and I am referring to and the Channel islands within the last England, Scotland and Wales at the few days. The full Board of Agricul- moment, that part of the United King- ture have also met and we are told by dom have a clear bill of health will you all these different persons connected then consult with the Ministry as to with the ban in Ireland, Eire and the the possibility of extending the Isle of Channel islands, that they have no Man into this clear area retaining of intention whatsoever of lifting their course all precautions in relation to the restrictions. We in the Isle of Man think entry of dogs and cats from countries in it would be very foolish if we did so which the disease is endemic ? at this present time. As far as this Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, if the Petition, sir, that has been presented to outbreak concerned in the Newmarket you, we have given answers and I think area, if this (was a damp squib, the all members of Tynwald have had the restrictions are still in force and while answers to the different questions that these restrictions are still in force, have been put forward and the gentle- naturally it would be a very dangerous man who has been writing and asking thing for us to do anything about our for my removal from the chairmanship ban. A lot has been made of the of the Board of Agriculture. (Laughter.) different bans that have been imposed As far as he is concerned, sir, and his and especially the one that was imposed letter to Mr• Selwyn Lloyd, I have in by Jersey. Now they did impose a com- my possession a letter from Mr. plete ban on the movement of dogs or Selwyn Lloyd, to whom someone kindly cats into Jersey at the same time as did write on behalf of myself and we did. Within two days they removed the Board of Agriculture. 'It is a con- that and then they allowed these fidential letter but any member who animals to come in under licence. I was wishes to peruse this at the luncheon told by the Minister of Agriculture in period, he can certainly do so. It will Jersey last Monday, so many lies were certainly not bear out all the facts that told by persons who wished to get their were in Mr. Noakes' letter. In answer pets back that they now, or they did at to the Speaker's ouestion, sir, I think that time, put on a complete ban and I have replied and at the moment, nothing was allowed to be brought into until this Committee of Enquiry which the Channel Islands. Now this is a is sitting in the United Kingdom will fact and they are not going to alter it.
Rabies Ban—Question by the Speaker, 1776 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
We think if we altered it in the Isle of imported and if they are carriers of Man we would be even breaking faith, the disease, I would like to ask the hon. I think personally we are on our own, gentlemen who put forward this naturally, and it is our decision, but we question, I would like to ask him, if he should not break faith with other parts has ever known a sheep or a beast to of the country who are imposing this bite an yon e ? They may carry same ban as ours. We think it would be the disease, but they certainly could a foolish thing to do if we went away not pass it on to a human unless they from what they are doing. Just going were in touch with that human and back to the United Kingdom and the licked them or something like that over ban in the United Kingdom, at the a wound. (Interruption.) moment nothing is allowed into the Sir Henry Sugden: I can assure the United Kingdom, and even countries hon. chairman of the Board of Agricul- where rabies is totally unknown, ture that I have been both licked and animals from those countries ere not bitten by possible carriers of this allowed into the United Kingdom. The disease and I felt it is time that the only reason why this ban is on is Board of Agriculture really got down to because this disease has been in the protecting this Island properly if that United Kingdom, The possibility of it is in fact their hon. intention. being brought into the Isle of Man admittedly might be infinitesimal; on the other hand the possibility is there and while the possibility is there, sir, INCREASE OF POWER OF we do not wish to lift our restrictions. MANX RADIO—QUESTION The Speaker: Your Excellency, could BY MR., IRVING I ask a further supplementary, sir ? The Governor: Question number 3. I am sorry. The hon. member for East Douglas. The Governor: Yes. The Speaker: If the only reason that Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to the ban is on is because this disease ask the chairman of the Broadcasting has appeared in the United Kingdom, Commission: What action is being taken will you, when the United Kingdom by the Broadcasting Commission to Ministry are satisfied that the United increase the power of Manx Radio ? Kingdom area over which they have The Governor: The chairman of the control is absolutely clear and free, Broadcasting Commission. then relax the position as far es the Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, under Isle of Man is concerned, if this is the normal circumstances the answer which only reason ? I could have given to the hon. member Mr. Crowe: As soon as this Commit- of East Douglas would have been short tee which is looking into the disease of and sharp. It would have been very rabies will report, sir. naturally we will easy to answer that action to increase consider our opinion and our decision. the power of Manx Radio is not in the Sir Henry Sugden: Your Excellency, hands of the Broadcasting Commission may I ask a supplementary ? but in the hands of Tynwald and that The Governor: Yes. consequent upon events which will take Sir Henry Sugden: Thank you, Your place in the United Kingdom over the Excellency. Will the hon. chairman of next few days the whole aspect of com- the Board of Agriculture tell this hon. mercial broadcasting could indeed be Court what steps have been taken to changed. The legislation defined and control the entry of other possible produced for the Broadcasting Commis- carriers of the disease from England, sion makes it clear that the duties of such as sheep, pigs and cattle ? the Commission are very much subject Mr. Crowe: These animals, sir, can be to the terms. provisions and limitations
Increase of Power of Manx Radio—Question by Mr. Irving.
TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1777 of any licence issued by the Postmaster- under what they euphamistically called General, as he was called at that time, the 1962 Settlement, it was immaterial under the various Wireless Telegraphy whether the service was commercial or Acts or under any Act of Tynwald. The not. The Broadcasting Commission con- licence issued by the Postmaster- sidered that this reply, having regard General defines the alloted power and to the fact that consideration of the any increase in power would un- problem was started at governor/ doubtedly mean the withdrawal of the minister level and only deferred pend- licence. The licence is issued to the con- ing the outcome of the Stonham talks. cessionaire and so long as the conces- was cynical and rebuffing in the sionaire's arrangement is perpetuated, extreme: in fact the diplomatic equiva- if the Tynwald Court were to authorise lent of a very rude and unseemly an increase in power without the con- gesture. 1 therefore reported to the sent of the Minister of Posts and Speaker that the Commission would Telegraphs the licence authorising the support wholeheartedly an appeal to concessionaire to operate, would auto- any international body which would matically be null and void. The meet with the approval of Tynwald. Attorney-General acting in his official However the outcome of the resolution authorised capacity would, in my appearing today at number 24 on this opinion, have no option but to proceed agenda could materially change the against the concessionaire and the situation. Your Excellency will recall Broadcasting Commission would have that on January 17th, 1968, in this hon. no power to lift a finger to stop it. This Court the learned Attorney said: "It is now history, Your Excellency. Your has always been my view that a truly Excellency will recall that it was agreed Government owned radio station, I that negotiations commenced by the should of added there Government Stonham Working Party and which operated, would not be subject to the remain unresolved should proceed on a controls of the Wireless Telegraphy government to government basis and Act." I understand that the hon. member that the hon. member who has asked who has tabled this question has also this question today subsequently tabled had quite a high level legal opinion on a resolution that the dispute between this subject at one time or another con- the two governments on the question of firming that point of view. If further power for Manx Radio should be confirmation was needed then the referred to international higher evidence presented to the Royal Com- authority. The Broadcasting Commis- mission as compiled by Mr. Maurice sion supported this resolution, but Bathurst underlines everything which asked that a little time be accorded to we have thought but in thick black the Home Office in view of their pre- type, when he says. Regulation 725 (1) occupation with the distressing affairs (i)—this is regulation 725 of the Inter- of Northern Ireland. This request was national Telecommunications Union agreed to by the hon. Speaker, who Regulations of which I have Mr. amended the resolution so that the Bathurst's copy here in case any Commission could have time to receive members would like to see them. the reply of the Government of the Hon. members will recall that these United Kingdom on the question of the Home Office attitude towards a modifi- regulations have been agreed by the Government of the United Kingdom cation of their hard and antagonistic on behalf of the United Kingdom the line in the event of Manx Radio being operated on a non-commercial basis. Isle of Man and the Channel Islands as When the reply came it said, in effect, a single broadcasting area. This was the that so long as the range of Manx whole concept of the 1962 directive—for Radio was confined to the Isle of Man, directive it was. I quote 725 (1) (i)
Increase of Power of Manx Radio—Question by Mr. Irving. 17718 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 only applies to operation by a private and the spending of money is. as person or enterprise. A government always, in the hands of Tynwald. operated station requires no licence.' So if Manx Radio were owned, it is, and Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I wonder were to be operated as it would be by if the hon. member would tell us how the Isle of Man Government, this quickly he could acquire a high- international regulation would not powered transmitter ? apply. There is much more I could say The Governor: I doubt if that-- on this, Your Excellency, and am Mr. Irving: I think it is out of order. prepared to say if necessary, but since (Laughter.) I do not intend to cover this particular point at item 24, I hope that the hon. The Governor: Under Standing Order member who tabled this question will 33 a matter of fact within the special realise that it is now up to Tynwald cognisance of the person to whom it to make its own decision upon which was addressed. I do not think that is. we have everything to gain and nothing to lose. Until Manx Radio is not only government - owned, but government operated. the Broadcasting Commission EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN would exceed its duty by recommending —QUESTION BY MR. VEREKER any further action to increase the power of Manx Radio. If item 24 part The Governor: Question number 4. (1) alone carried, it would pro'bably The hon. member for Gastletown. result that the junior member for Rushen and the senior member for West Mr. Vereker: Your Excellency, I beg Douglas reposing in Victoria Road, to ask the chairman of the Isle of Man which I realise might solve one or two Board of Education: Whereas it has vocal, educational and planning difficul- come to my notice that children from ties. (Laughter.) If item 24 part (2) Victoria Road School are being engaged carries the appropriate recommendation in manning level crossings and for will certainly be made for the decision, other purposes in the organisation of as always, of Tynwald. running the Isle of Man Steam Rail- way at Castletown. (1) Is the hon. Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, may I merr..ber aware of this current practice ? ask a supplementary in anticipation to (2) Will the hon. member undertake to the very good answer the hon. investigate and take any necessary member has given me ? Is the chair- steps to stop this illegal usage of man of the Broadcasting Commission children under the authorised working prepared to operate Manx Radio on age ? behalf of the Manx Govenment; turn up the power and he damned to the The Governor: The chairman of the British Minister of Posts and Tele- Board of Education. graphs, whatever political party he may be ? Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I was first made aware that young people Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I have were 'being employed by the Isle of already indicated to the hon. member Man Steam Railway at Castletown that in the event of such authority being during the late afternoon of the 8th given to the Broadcasting Commission, June. I immediately made arrangements not to myself, but to the Broadcasting with an officer of the Board of Educa- Commission, we shall certainly make an tion to visit Castletown station the appropriate recommendation for the following morning to investigate the consideration and decision of Tynwald, complaint. This officer visited the because in order to turn up any power station at 10.45 on the morning of the it would require the spending of money 9th June and he waited while two trains
Employment of Children Question by Mr. Vereker.
TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1779 arrived and departed and he did not Now yesterday I received a letter from see any children in any part of the the general manager expressing sur- station. He then walked up and down prise that they were employing children the line to see if any children were opening gates at Mill Road crossing engaged clearing weeds, etc., but again and explaining the circumstances. I am he saw no children. He then contacted glad of the opportunity of replying to the station-master and after introducing this question as it may help to publicise the regulations and remind would-be himself informed him that it had been employers of young people that they are reported that children under working breaking the law employing any child age were being employed at the station. under 13 years of age and they must The station-master was quite frank and have approval from the Board of admitted that he had been pestered by Education to employ children between several boys asking if they could help the ages of 13 to 15, and this age group in any way, so he had written out the is only authorised to work for a limited following form of permission for the number of hours. It makes no difference parents to sign: "I the undersigned give to the offence whether wages are paid permission for my son to assist in run- or not, or if the permission of parents ning trains at Castletown Railway is given. station between now and June 27th. This will also include opening and Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may closing the level crossing gates at Mill I ask a supplementary ? Would the hon. Road and there will be no remuneration chairman of the Board of Education whatsoever ". He had received back two not agree that in some of these circum- signed forms in respect of two 11-year- stances these children are a lot more old boys. It was also a condition of out of mischief doing something of this employment that the boys had to nature than they are when they are become members of the Isle of Man running about and getting into mis- Steam Railway Supporters' Association chief and then we decide to give them and pay a fee of 5s. (Laughter.) It was the birch for doing something that was pointed out to the station-master that it naughty. This is the greatest deal of was illegal for any child under the age baloney that ever was talked in this of 13 years to be employed and he Court. replied that he did not consider the Mr. Kneale: The answer to that, Your children were being employed as they Excellency, is that we are operating received no remuneration whatsoever under regulations approved by Tyn- and were simply filling in time. The wald including the hon. member who Board's officer then saw the general has just asked the question. manager of the railway and pointed out to him that they were breaking the law Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, could by allowing these children to work at I ask the hon. chairman a question ? the Castletown railway station even What is the position of a person though they got no payment, and employing a boy scout of less than 13 warned him that he must not employ years of age on the "bob-a-job " ? Is any child under the age of 13 years and it breaking the law ? (Laughter.) if he wanted to employ children Mr. Anderson: This is just about what between the ages of 1'3 and 15 he must they have got to. make an application to the Board of Education. Some of the necessary forms Mr. Kneale: The regulations make it were left with the general manager and quite clear—note, a person who assists he was warned that if they continued in the trade or occupation carried on for to employ children under 13 years of profit shall be deemed to be employed age they were liable to prosecution. notwithstanding that he receives no
Employment of Children—Question by Mr. Vereker. 1780 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1C, 197.0 reward for his labour. " Bob-a-job " is baiting should be continued throughout not a trade or occupation operating for the whole 12 months and not be confined profit. to the winter months only. The Board also has been in communication with English firms who specialise in admini- ERADICATION OF RATS— stering schemes for rat eradication. QUESTION BY MR. VEREKER The hon. member will, no doubt, recollect that in this year's estimates The Governor: Question number 5. ray Board made allowance for a con- The hon. member for Castletown. siderable sum of money to be made Win Vereker: Your Excellency, d beg available with the result that 2,11,000 leave to ask the chairman of the Isle was voted for the purpose in this year's of Man Local Government Board: (1) budget. The hon. member will see that Whilst it is appreciated that your Board my Board is fully alive to rat menace employs a Rodent Destruction Officer in the Island and are taking the most and that rat poison is made available stringent steps at considerable expense, by him on reouest, there appears to be and my Board certainly does accept that growing public concern over the the ultimate aim is the total eradication increase in rats particularly in farming of this type of vermin in the Island. I and harbour areas. Will you indicate to would be prepared to report back to this Court what steps additional to this hon. Court in say, six months, the those currently taken by your Board are result of our negotiations. In conclusion being made to intensify the campaign I must however point out with very against rat infestation ? (2) Will your great emphasis that the statutory res- Board accept the ultimate aim as being ponsibility for the destruction of rats the eradication of this type of vermin and mice is that of the owner or in this Island and undertake to make occupier of the land or premises under a progress report in six month's time ? his control. It is for the purpose of The Governor: The chairman of the assisting these persons to carry out Local Government Board. their responsibilities that my Board has for very many years supplied free Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, my poisoned bait and in many cases given Board proposes to continue the rat instructions for laying them. Thank extermination campaign which has now you, sir. been carried out for the past seven years. whereby a number of suitable Mr. Vereker: 1 thank the hon. chair- men taken from the Register of Un- man. Your Excellency, for his very employed are employed to assist the clear answer. Rodent Destruction Officer principally in the laying of poisoned bait. This Mr. Crellin: I would like to ask a work is carried out in a systematic supplementary, Your Excellency. I way. The supply of free poisoned bait would like to ask my hon. chairman— to private persons by my Board is because it appears to me that one piece additional to the work carried out by has been missed out of the answer—is these men under the direction of the it not a fact that local authorities, Rodent Destruction Officer. The council local authorities, under their Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries public health responsiibilities, also have readily agreed to an invitation of my a very great responsibility in this Board to allow one of its senior officers matter ? And that their co-operation is to visit the Island and he spent over a also statutory ? week here conferring with the Board's Chief Inspector and other officers. This Mr. P. Radcliffe: That is quite correct, officer's advice was that the work of sir.
Eradication of Rats—Question by Mr. Vereker. TYNWALD COURT, .TUNE 16, 1970 17E41
PLANNING APPLICATIONS — QUES'TION BY 1MR. VEREKER Messrs. Sheridan & Ashton on the form submitted by them— Application No. The Governor: Question number 6. 1.00.. 28482 — did not declare any legal The hon. member for Castletown, interest. The purpose of giving notice Mrs. Vereker: Your Excellency, I beg to interested persons either by Press to ask the chairman of Isle of Man notice, letter or personal contact, is a Local Government Board: (1) What legal requirement to ensure that any steps are taken by your Board or the interested person is made aware of the Planning Committee of your Board to type of development put forward in a establish the bona fides of applicants particular area, and is so given with for permission for development or the definite intention of stopping those change of use of land or buildings under persons being distressed or concerned Town and Country Planning legisla- by a development being commenced tion? (2) Was the form of application near them of which they had no pre- submitted by Sheridan & Ashton vious notice or warning. In all the cir- (I.D.O. No. 28482) in respect of a pro- cumstances there appears to me to be position to set up a Car Breakers' Yard no reason to re-examine the administra- at the Castletown Gas Works complete tive arrangements which work well, and in order before it was advertised in and in this particular instance has en- the "Isle of Man Weekly Times" and abled interested persons to submit their " Isle of Man Courier " on the 22nd views on a proposed change of use May, 1970 ? (3) As the general public which was contemplated by Messrs. have viewed with justifiable alarm this Sheridan & Ashton who apparently undesirable development in Castletown wished to know that they can properly and as the developers have no approval and adequately use the buildings which from the Gas Committee of Tynwald the Gas Committee of Tynwald had ad- nor any legal interest in The property vertised for letting, and had stated concerned, will your Board re-examine " give spacious storage", (but had given the administrative arrangements on no reservation on the use to which the planning applications with a view to buildings might be used. Thank you. preventing the publication of irrespon- sible and unauthorised projects which is capable of causing distress and con- cern to neighbouring residents ? LETTING OF BUILDINGS AT The Governor: The chairman of the THE GAS WORKS. CASTLETOWN Local Government Board. —QUESTION BY MR. P. RADCLiFFE Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the application form for planning con- The Governor: Question number 7. sent — particulars of the applicant's in- The hon. member for Ayre. terest in the property to be developed Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I is requested. namely, the owner, the beg to ask the chairman of the Gas tenant, the option of purchase, etc. By Committee of Tynwald: (1) Did the Gas regulations the Planning Committee is Committee offer for letting buildings at expressly precluded from refusing an the Gas Works, Castletown ? (2) If so application because of lack of full in- —(a) 'by what means was the avail- formation. Further information was re- ability of the premises brought to the quested in this matter. As the Planning notice of the public ? (b) how many Committee must deal with an applica- replies were received ? (c) for what tion within six weeks it is necessary to purposes did the various applicants give Press notice when appropriate im- state they intended to use the premises? mediately the application is received. (d) did the Gas Committee place any
Planning Applications—Question by Mr. Vereker. — Letting of Buildings at the Gas Works, Castletown,—Question by Mr. P. Radcliffe. 1782 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 restriction on the type of use to which other than ordinary spacious storage.. It the buildings could be put ? (e) were was not, in view of the answer to the all the applicants informed that plan- last paragraph, the intention of the Gas ning permission was necessary before a Committee to let these buildings without letting could be entered into by the Gas being assured that the applicant had Committee ? (f) was it the intention of planning permission, as in view of the the Gas Committee to let these build- previous answer, we do not consider ings without first being assured the suc- that was applicable. (2) (g) Sheridan cessful applicant had obtained plan- and Ashton put in this planning applica- ning permission ? (g) were Messrs. tion long before the tenders were Sheridan & Ashton who proposed using actually considered on the 1st June, the buildings (if successful in obtain- 1970, by the Committee, and at that ing the letting) as a Car Breakers' time all the tenders were considered Yard• informed that such a use was not and rejected as we found none of them acceptable to the Gas Committee, and were suitable, and all the tenderers the letting of the buildings for such a were informed by the Committee on purpose would not be considered ? that date. The Governor: The chairman of the Mr. P. Radcliffe: I would like to thank Gas Commitee of Tynwald. the hon. member. Your Excellency, for Mr. Vereker: Your Excellency, the his answers. answer to the first part of the question, Your Excellency, is yes. The second part of the question, (a) the availability of P.A.Y.E. —STATEMENT BY THE the premises was brought to the notice CHAIRMAN OF THE FINANCE of the public by means of notices in the BOARD Insular Press. Section (b), eight. Section (c). there were various number of The Governor: Item No. 5. The chair- man of the Finance Board. purposes for which the applicants ten- dered, ranging from making concrete Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, in the slabs to scrap metal, car breaking, recent debate on Your Excellency's gardening, joiners' workshops, storage Budget, there was mention of a Pay-as- of bricks, etc., including a Bible study You-Earn Scheme for Income Tax. This group. (d) The Gas Commitee did not is a subject which has received a lot of place any restriction on the type of use consideration over the last few years, to which the buildings could be put but one which because of administra- because the advertisement stated the tive complexities and of conditions in buildings were suitable for spacious the Island, has not found favour in the storage only, and did not advertise it for Court. It may be of assitance to tax- any other purpose. The applicants were payers to know that the Treasurer is not informed that planning permission willing to accept advance payments on was necessary as only storage space account of income tax, spread over the was advertised. The actual form of ad- period from April in the year of assess- vertisement was " that buildings suit- ment to January, when the tax would able for spacious storage will shortly normally be payable. There will be two became available on the site formerly reasonable conditions attached to this used as the Castlatown Gas Works. Ap- facility. One is that the payments will plications for lettings are invited ". To be made regularly, usually monthly, and our minds, sir, on the Committee that secondly, that the total of the individual did not infer that it was allowed to be payments will bear a reasonable re- let for the devleopment of any industry lationship to the estimated amount of
P.A.Y.E.—Statement by the Chairman of the Finance Board. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1783 tax becoming payable. This additional their tax, and I am sure they will con- facility will not interfere in any way tinue to save through a deposit account with the normal taxation arrangements. in the banks, with savings banks, by At the appropriate time the taxpayer purchasing savings stamps and certifi- will receive from the Assessor of Income cates or in other ways. It is essentially Tax a notice indicating the amount of a matter of personal choice as to which Lax due for the year of assessment. if method the taxpayer chooses to dis- the accumulated amount of instalments charge his tax liabilities. It should of is insufficient to meet the amount of tax. course always be remembered that the then the taxpayer can either pay the amounts to be found in the Isle of Man balance or increase the amount or the are generally much smaller than those number of his instalments so as to clear in the United Kingdom, and that a the tax by the due date. If the amount larger proportion of the people in the Isle of Man is exempt from tax al- of the payments already made exceeds together. the amount of tax due, the excess will normally be credited to the following Mr. McFee: Your Excellnecy, could year, although in exceptional circum- the hon. member tell us whether the stances it may be refunded. Any tax- payments to which he refers — are not payer who wishes to take advantage of these facilities already in being? this arrangement should write to the Treasurer. Be can very easily obtain a Mr. Bolton: The facilities that I have near estimate of the amount of tax he outlined are in being. I am at the pre- will be required to pay in April. To avoid any misunderstanding I should sent moment bringing them to the notice make it quite clear that these arrange- of the public generally. ments can only apply to tax arising in the year of assessment; in any case where tax is now due—or indeed over- due — nothing I have said today affects SUPPLEMENTARY AUTHORITIES the normal proceedings for recovery of —APPROVED tax. I should perhaps add that this facility of making payments on account The Governor: Item No. 6. The chair- c.f a future tax liability is, of course, man of the Finance Board. aditional to all the other methods which are presently available to taxpayers. Mr. I-3olton: Your Excellency, 1 beg to Many taxpayers already save up to pay move:—
That Tynwald— (1) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of Man, in respect of the year ended 31st March, 1209 to apply out of the current revenue the sum of £537 in payment of excess net expenditure incurred by the Board of Education; 12) authorises the Treasurer of the Isle of Man, in respect of the year ended 31st March, 1959 to apply from monies borrowed, sums not exceeding £13,007 In payment of the items set out in the First Schedule hereto; and (31 hereby approves of borrowings not exceeding £1,702 as set out in column 7 of the Second Schedule hereto, being made by the Government under the provisions of the Isle of Man Loans Act. 1238 for the purpose of meeting expenditure in excess of existing loan sanctions. such borrowings to be repaid within the periods set out in column FI of the said Schedule.
Supplementary AuthoritiesApproved. 1784 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
FIRST SCHEDULE Hoard Item No. Scheme. Vote Actual Excess 1 2 3 4 5 6 £ £ £ Education 1 Onchan Primary School—Extension 44,500 45,857 1,357 Harbour 2 ,Adjustment re Pier Terminal Buildings 1(1,016 10.016 Local Government 3 Building by Private Enterprise Schemes 100.000 100.600 600 4 Clagh Vane, Ballasalla —New Houses .,. 2,000 2.500 500 5 Castletown Sea Wall 624 624 £13,097
SECOND SCHEDULE Ricard Authorised Actual to Loan Period N.. Scheme Expenditure 313.09 ExcesS Sanction (Years) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 £ £ £ £ Highway ... 1 Completion of 1966/.67 Works 15,000 16,081 1,081 1.081 30 Local Government 2 Building by Private Enterprise Schemes 430.500 431,094 594 594 25 3 Clagh Vane, Ballasalla —New Houses 180,000 180,027 27 27 60 £1,702
This item. Your Excellency. is for LEGISLATIVE EXPENSES - supplementary authorities in connection SUPPLEMENTARY VOTE 1970/71 with payments that have already been —APPROVED made. Members will have been made aware of most of these items a long The Governor: Item No. 7. The chair- time ago, and this resolution is really man of the Finance Board. tooled 1.o satisfy audit requirements. Mr, Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to The items are mostly of a minor nature move:— and the three of them represent varia- That Tynwald authorises the Treasurer of tions from one year to another. The the Isle of Man to apply out of the current largest item is the Harbour Board in revenue of this Isle during the year ending respect of Pier Terminal Buildings and 31st March, 1971, a sum not exceeding £2,955, refers to a 'nook transaction only. I for the printing and binding of Volume XIX of the Revised Statutes. understand that the vote was given to Such sum to be additional to the sum of ore authority and the money was spent £9,483.100 voted by Tynwald on the 19th day by another. and the vote is now neces- of May, 1970 to defray the cost of services sary in order to satisfy the auditors. approved by Tynwald. The Governor: Is that agreed? Your Excellency, this refers to certain It was agreed. expenses of -printing. Provision was
Legislative Expenses—Supplementary Vote 1970/71—Approved. TYN•WALD COURT, JUNE 18, 1970 1785 made for this printing last year, but it Mr. McFee: There is just one thing was not paid for. Unfortunately, in I would like to bring in on this motion, drafting the Estimates for the current sir, because I cannot get it in anywhere year, the existence of this liability was else! (Laughter.) And that is concerning overlooked and no financial provision the Tynwald Ceremony itself. Why is was made to meet it. The volumes have it that you have got to go outside to now been delivered from the printer and get bands when we want to encourage the account must be paid. I beg to move, our own cultural life, and we have sir. bands in the Island that could supply The Governor: Agreed? the music necessary for the Tynwald It was agreed, Ceremony without going outside? I think this is something that the Com- mittee dealing with the Tynwald cere- monial should consider on future PURCHASE BY GOVERNMENT occasions. PROPERTY TRUSTEES OF FURNITURE AT CASTLE RUSHEN Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, in view AND FLAGPOLES AT ST. JOHN'S of the way the hon. member has moved —APPROVED this resolution, 1 think that some ex- planation is due to the Court, and I The Governor: Item No, 8. The chair- would like to make it quite clear that man of the Government Property Trus- this matter is not included in this year's tees. Budget. The Finance Board has con- Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I curred in the moving of this resolution beg to move:— by the hon. member, but the proposal That Tynwald— was removed from the Estimates which (1) (a) Approves the purchase by the Gov- were included in the Budget, and this ernment Property Trustees of suitable tables and forms for use in Castle expenditure is additional to the Budget. Rushen at an estimated cost of £500: I am making no comment beyond making it quite clear that this is not (b) Approves the purchase by the Gov- ernment property Trustees of a num- one of the resolutions which have been ber of flagpoles and flags for erection provided for and one of the expendi- on the roadside between Ballacralne tures that have been provided for. and St. John's at an estimated cost of £450; Furthermore, I think that the Court should be made fully aware of the con- (2) Authorises the Treasurer of the Isle ditions that will apply in Castle Rushen of Man to apply from the current revenue of this isle during the year if we spend £500 on tables and forms. I ending 31st March, 1971 a sum not am quite well aware of the fact that exceeding £950 to enable the Gov- this matter has been discussed at con- ernment Property Trustees to proceed with these schemes. siderable length in private, but that the Such sum to be additional to the sum of Legislative Council sitting in Tynwald £9.485,100 voted by Tynwald on 19th May. have not the same knowledge as to 1970. what has been going on perhaps as Mr. Burke: Your Excellency, could the other members of the Court may have. hon. chairman please explain to the Now IL has been found that, I believe, Court exactly what this £500 is being that for certain functions the room was spent on, and is it suggested that the not big enough, and that in any case Government want it for catering in op- the ladies would not want to sit on position to private enterprise? forms, and I think we should be in- formed of the nature of the function, The Governor: Does any other mem- if it is a function, to be accommodated, ber wish to speak? with tables — perhaps trestles— I do not
Purchase by Government Property Trustees of Furniture at Castle Rushen and Flagpoles at St. John's—Approved, 1786 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1,6, 1970 know, forms, we do not know. And I of people who come past Tynwald think that for the hon. member to get Hill and do not even know it exists. up and say, " I move the resolution I am very proud of being Manx, and as a matter of fact I feel so proud of the standing in my name " is a little bit too Isle of Man it makes me jealous when much. Furthermore, the provision of anybody comes into it. (Laughter.) But flagpoles from Ballacraine to St. John's, I think that the spending of £500 on to he standing there during the whole of the chairs and tables for Castle Ruthen the summer, and the visitors wondering is a very good purchase. I suppose many just what we are and what we are of the members of this hon. Court were thinking about, it looks to me as though in Castletown last night; some were it is a little bit of nationalism gone mad, and quite frankly throwing money down there a year ago at a function. And to my way of thinking this was an excel- the drain quite unnecessarily. I quite lent idea of old Manx history brought agree that our Tynwald Hill, the seat up to you where you would never see of the promulgation of the laws and our such surroundings anywhere as you celebrations on the 5th July is worthy of would see in the Isle of Man in Castle mark, but the next thing we will hear Rushen. If we can get small func- is that there will be flags all the way tions held in Castle Rushen by having from Douglas to Tynwald, and then these tables and forms there for people somebody will say there should be flags to dine, or whatever-have-you in the all the way from Peel into Tynwald. I Castle, I think this money should be have got to say this — 1 know there are spent. I support that wholeheartedly. those people who think, oh. this is a Also the £450 for the flagpoles from grand idea. let us show them we are Ballacraine to St. John's, and the rest independent. Surely they know we are come naturial. I support. independent before they come here, and there is no need for us to stick up a lot The Governor: Mr, Speaker. of flags which are going to cost a con- siderable amount of money to replace The Speaker: Your Excellency, I think every year. These flags get torn to rags; we know that from past experience. And the criticism of the Finance Board we go on with these little madnesses chairman of the presentation of this adding to our expenses year after year vote is in fact a reasonable one in the and committing ourselves to something sense that we should have had more which is quite useless, and to my mind information from the hon. member for will only tend rather to make us a Peel, but after that he really went off laughing stock than anything else. the rails, and portrayed the fact that his commercial instincts now take pre- The Governor: Mr. Faragher — we cedence over all else. He has no sense seldom hear from him. of occasion, he has no feeling for the Isle of Man at all. If it is in pounds, Mr. Faragher: I would like to support shillings and pence it is o.k.; anything the Resolution. I have just heard the else goes out of the window. Now, your hon. chairman of Finance . . . I hope I Excellency, in relation to this particu- do not get as old as you sound ! (Laugh- lar estimate, I would congratulate the ter). I am not ashamed of being Manx. Government Property Trustees on bring- and I am not ashamed of the way I am ing it to the Court. First of all, let us bred, and I am not ashamed of the the deal with the second bit, which is the countryside being brightened up a little flagpoles between Balacraine and Tyn- bit. especially round Tynwald Hill. I wald. This is not a nationalist effort as think this will be an asset to the Isle of portrayed by the hon. member. It was, Man. It will certainly bring to the notice in fact, to improve the approach to Tyn-
Purchase by Government Property Trustees of Furniture at Castle Rushen and Flagpoles at St. John's—Approved. "I'YN WALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1787 wald on the Island's most important day The Speaker: I am delighted. Your as far as we are concerned— Tynwald Excellency, and if they could guarantee Day; to dress it not with an extreme bands as well I am quite sure that the sense of nationalism, but to dress it committee would consider the point. appropriately as the real royal approach, Now, Your Excellency. let us go to if you like, to our ancient ceremony. It Castle Rushen. What is the position in is based on precedents set elsewhere in Castle Rushen? Yes, an interesting the United Kingdom where this sort mausoleum, But in this Island we have of procedure is commonplace, and as a great interest in tourism, and if you far as I am aware at no time was it go across the way to Eire you will find ever envisaged that this dressing would that there they harness both effectively remain up through the whole of the —the interest in tourism, the interest in summer months— history — both are harnessed effectively in the interests of the country. Surely Mr. Bolton: It is. this is what the Government Property Trustees are starting out in a modest way to do, to furnish this place so that The Speaker: As far as I am aware it can be made available for functions; at no time was it envisaged by the possibly in the course of time we would Tynwald Arrangements Committee that hope the annual Tynwald banquet. it would remain up for the whole of (Hear. hear.) And, Your Excellency, the summer months; it was specially what is wrong with doing this in this for the Tynwald occasion. And I hope day and age ? We must go along with that the Court will accept and bless the the time we live in. We must try and idea of the improvement in the presen- harness most effectively this very in- tation of this ceremony every year teresting building and help it sell the because improvement is taking place. Island. As far as I am concerned the Now on the side, Your Excellency, per- modest approach here, £500, to me is a haps I could be permitted to answer the token, totally inadequate. I would like point made by the hon. member of the to see the Government Property Trus- Cuoncil in relation to why there are no tees go to town on this and get with it" Manx bands at Tynwald. I am quite like the Irish Tourist Board are doing sure that Tynwald Arrangements Com- with this particular problem. And so, mittee would be delighted to have IVIanx Your Excellency, as far as criticising bands at Tynwald, but honestly, we have these votes is concerned, I regard such always had difficulty in getting person- criticism as being untimely and un- nel to turn out for the occasion, to he worthy, and I do hope the Court will assured even of getting Cadet Corps and support both without reservation. so on. Now this year you will be in- terested to know that we are going to Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, be supported by the Island's Festival I wish to oppose. Certain information Chorus, and this is something that if it has been made available in the course is successful will, I am quite sure, be of the debate, but I also do take excep- developed and is something that I think tion. not on behalf of myself and mem- the Court will applaud. We have always bers of the Court but the public felt that Tynwald lacked a bit in the generally, in the manner in which this way of presentation, in choral work, and was presented to this Court. I had no this should be an improvement that the knowledge as to what the £500 hon, member— was going to be sent on, or what the tables and forms were to 'be used for, The hon. Mr. MeFee: The Arts Council will member. the Speaker. has just said, guarantee it, sir. surely this is what the Government Pro-
Purchase by Government 'Property Trustees of Furniture at Castle Rushen and Flagpoles at St. John's—Approved. 17138 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
perty Trustees intend, Apparently even Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: But when you the Speaker is not quite certain as to come to Tynwald Hill and you see the what they are going to do. He said, flags you appreciate you have come to surely this is what the Government Pro- some place that is of some significance perty Trustees . . Is he speaking for in the Isle of Man. And if you do not the Government Property Trustees? He know, you do not observe, you do make is hoping that they are doing what they enquiries as a result of that. Your Ex- have in mind. But the Government Pro- cellency, I am opposing the resolution. perty Trustees have not told us so. He Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, just said " to furnish in course of time "- one question. Could the hon. member Have they any plans for the future that tell us if the purchases have already these are going to be used? This is been made? Government money. Just recently we heard the hon. member, the chairman Mr. Nicholls: Your Excellency, a very of the Government Property Trustees. brief question, sir. With regard to tables explain that he was looking after the and forms, can we assume that these interests of the taxpayer and seeing will be in character with the buildings, that Government moneys were put to that we will not have tubular steel proper use and spent properly. Here he chairs and chromium plate and formica- puts a vote forward with no explana- topped tables laughing at the rest of the tion whatsoever— place? Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I Mr. MacDonald: I want to hear you did deliberately not go into detail when first! I moved this resolution, because I wanted to see what sort of opposition we Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: That is no answer would get. (Interruption.) I nm very to the public. The public expects an interested where it comes from. What answer as to how their money is being we have put down here, as I said be- spent and going to be spent. from the fore in this Court, the Government Pro- gentleman, the member of this Court, perty Trustees often carry out instruc- who stood up and claimed to be the tions from bodies of Tynwald. In this defender of the public's rights in that particular case once again the Govern- respect. Also as to the flags. The Speaker ment Property Trustees, I as chairman again says " on Tynwald Day only ". I of the Government Property Trustees, hope he understood that, implied that am presenting a resolution on behalf of that was what he thought. I am not another Tynwald committee. going to commit the Speaker, speak for him, but I am asking the question. Is it Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: Why did you not Tynwald Day only, or is it all summer? say so ? My impression is that it is all summer. Mr. MacDonald: You should know And as to the significance, we under- that, you have been here long enough. stand . . I fully appreciate flags flying The £500, Your Excellency, for tables on the Tynwald Hill and the Tynwald and forms in Castle Rushen was as a Hill properties, but to put them on a result . . . The reason for this, both street or road aproaching takes away Houses, Upper and Lower, the Council the significance of the flags on the Hill and the Keys at private sessions did when you get there. You might as well decide — perhaps the hon. member of have the flags all the way along the the Council. Mr. Radcliffe, was absent road. That is nothing, the flags would the day it was discussed in Council - be on the road at Kirk Michael— but they did decide that a banquet would be held in Castle Rushen, and Mr. Nicholls: What about Foxdale? this was decided not long ago.
Purchase by Government Property Trustees of Furniture at Castle Rushen and Flagpoles at St. John's—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1789
Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: No, we did not. to use for certain types of functions. Mr. MacDonald: It was decided that There was one that we held last night in all things being right it would be held the Castle in aid of a very good cause, in Castle Rushen. All things being cor- a charitable cause in the Castletown rect it would be held in Castle Rushen, area, and this was very, very successful. We are charging rent, sir, based on the Mr. Bolton: Hire the furniture! Bor- organisation asking. We had as much as row it! £25 for one room for about three hours, Mr. MacDonald: The Government Pro- which is very good indeed, and a lot perty Trustees, Your Excellency, were more than we ever got out of the Grand told to go ahead and arrange this. The Island that you supported—(laughter)- Government Property Trustees were so strongly. told to go ahead and arrange this. The Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: We are talking Government Property Trustees went about Castle Rushen. into it, what it would cost, and what did we do? We did find out what would Mr, MacDonald: i must take you back be required to seat the original number for you to remember what you voted for given to us. We decided that we would in this House in the past. What you have voted for. Any money spent on need some more forms and tables of the type already existing in the Castle. Castle Rushen is worthwhile, Your Ex- And as the time was very short we did cellency, of that I have no doubt, and place a tentative order with a Manx I think every member of the House of Keys appreciates that. Even if the firm to produce them, again based on recommendations of both Keys and Council all do not, the Keys do. Money Council— spent there is worthwhile money and at the end we still own it, not like other Members: Oh, no! things. It is still ours. And I think, Mr MacDonald: Oh, yes. Your Excel- Your Excellency, the £500 which the lency— Keys know all about, I think this £500 is well worth spending. We will be able Members: In private. to get more functions there this summer, Mr. MacDonald: In private, yes, in they will be well patronised, as I believe private. And, Your Excellency, the that the function last night run by a Government Property Trustees went good lady of an hon. member of the ahead to prepare these. Now not only Keys, that this was very successful: one did they want them for a banquet, but run before was successful. I think the Government Property Trustees, I Government itself can use this Castle to think quite rightly, intended to try to a much greater purpose than it is used make money in Castle Rushen. Castle at the moment. Rushen to be improved and it was a Mr. Nicholls: Are you going to apply magnificent Castle, there is no doubt for a licence? about that. This year we have a guaran- tee from one firm of 50;000 visitors to Mr. MacDonald: No. that Castle, and this produces a lot of Members: Hear, hear. money. To make that Castle pay or to try to make it pay we have to provide Mr. MacDonald: 'We will not compete certain facilities. We have also been for—as things stand the Government asked by the Manx public, could they Property Trustees have no intention of use this Castle for certain functions. competing with private enterprise. But We as Trustees have agreed because we if we did decide so, why not? Is it a think it is only right that this Castle fact that because it is owned by thf, should be available to the Manx public public, because it is public property
Purchase by Government Property Trustees of Furniture at Castle Rushen an Flagpoles at St. }John's—Approved. 17110 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1.6, 197.0 thou shalt not make any money out of glas once said. a pantomime to him it? This is a lot of nonsense. If the Gov- it is a pantomime. To the bulk of the ernment Property Trustees can make 1VIanx people this is not a pantomime be- money. they should make money. If pro- cause the constitution of the Isle of Man perty is vested in them, in the public is very dependent and is still completely good, why should they not make money dependent on Tynwald Ceremony being for the public? That is the reason why held once a year on July 5th, God we hope to improve Castle Rushen. The willing. flagpoles at St. John's, once again it was Mr. Bell: On the 6th, this year. another committee of Tynwald that decided these flagpoles were necessary. Mr. MacDonald: On the fith this year, The Government Property Trustess possibly the 7th next year! But it is very important to our constitution. I went according to their instructions, feel, Your Excellency, we should make which I was told quite recently by the the most of this. It is of interest to the hon. member, Mr. Radcliffe, the Gov- visitor, but more important than all it ernment Property Trustees are only is of interest to our own people. There there to carry out orders given to them may be the odd member in the Court by the people. We have done it again. who will vote against this. I say good your instructions, we have carried out luck to them, let him, but I think the the instructions, (Interruption.) The majority of this Court will vote for it, Tynwald Committee— this was done by and I beg to move, Your Excellency. the Tynwald Arrangements Committee which was set up by Tynwald for this Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, may 1 purpose, and you have been long enough ask a question of clarification? Can it in the tooth in this Court to know that be made abundantly clear by whoever such a committee exists. may be the appropriate authority in this matter, that these flags will be flown on Mr. Canister: That is not the same Tynwald Day and on Tynwald Day authority as the other, is it ? only ? That statement has been made, but the information the Finance Board Mr. MacDonald: It is a different au- has was that they were going to be thority. I am talking about flagpoles at there all summer. St. John's. These flagpoles at St. John's Mr. MacDonald: I think, Your Excel- I think, and the bulk of the Manx lency, the Tynwald Arrangements Com- people, apart from those who would sell mittee . . . unfortunately the First us down the river, would be quite happy Deemster is not here this morning, but to see. Your Excellency, along the ap- think the Tynwald Arrangements Com- proaches to Tynwald; just as they see mittee will be quite happy to do that. along the approaches to 'Parliament I think we should also allow our House in Canada—which no doubt again selves — not commit ourselves to one the hon. member wants his red jacket, day. There may be certain other most impracticable jackets—,(laughter) occasions, and I do not want this Court — but he still has his red packet, quite to come back in about ten years' time proud. of another flag. The Manx public because Her Majesty the Queen is will be quite 'happy to stand under their coming, or someone, and say, bu•t you own flag on the approaches to Tynwald have never had permission to put the Hill from Ballacraine into the Tynwald flags up. Normally, shall I say, normally Hill section itself. There is no doubt, the flagpoles will be up and the flags Your Excellency. that at Tynwald Hill will be flown on possibly two days. once a year the Manx public do not put Mr. Irving: The Viking Festival is the on, as the hon. member for North Dou- other! (Laughter.)
Purchase by Government Property Trustees of Furniture at Castle Rushen and Flagpoles at St. klohn's—Approved. TYNWALD COURT. JUNE 16, 1970 1791
Mr. MacDonald: No, two days. MOTOR MILEAGE ALLOWANCES FOR CIVIL SERVANTS AND The Governor: I shall now put the GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS— question. I had 'better put it in two APPROVED paris. Those in favour of (a) please say aye and those against say no. The ayes The Governor: Item No. 10. The chair- man of the Finance Board. have it. Paragraph (b). Those in favour please say aye and those against say no. Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to The ayes have it. move:— That as from 1st April. 1970 the Motor Mileage Allowances payable to Civil Servants and Government Officers shall be at the rates from time to time determined in accordance AMENDMENT OF THE INCOME TAX with the provisions of Section 9 of the Pay- ACT 1970 IN RELATION TO THE ment of Members' Expenses Act. 1957. This, sir, relates to the motor mileage DEDUCTION JN RESPECT OF LIFE for civil servants. Recently Your Excel- INSURANCE PREMIUMS—APPROVED lency's Order under the Payment of Members' Expenses Act, with the ap- The Governor: Item 9. The chairman proval of Tynwald. made the motor of the Finance Board. mileage allowances a slightly higher amount than they had been previously Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, 1 beg to in respect of members' travelling. The move:— report of the Committee of Tynwald on Motor Mileage Allowances adopted by That in accordance with the provisions of Tynwald on the 20th January, 1959, Section 119 of the Income Tax Act. 1970, Tyn- stated. " In our view there is no justi- wald hereby resolves that in Section 44 of fication for two scales. one for members the Income Tax Act, 1970 (which relates to of Tynwald and the other for officials. deductions in ' respect of life insurance We consider there should be one uni- premiums) in respect of the income tax year versal scale." This resolution grants to commencing on the 6th day of April, 1970, civil servants and government officers for the words " two shillings in the pound the same increase in mileage allowances on " there shall be substituted the words as was given to members, and provides 10 per cent. of ''. that any future variation of this allow- ance will also automatically apply Your Excellency, hon. members will re- to civil servants and government officers. call that at last month's meeting of I beg to move, sir. Tynwald the rates of Income Tax were Mr. Irving: I beg to second. continued unchanged but in anticipation of decimalisation they were expressed The Governor: Is it agreed? in percentages instead of rates in the It was agreed. pound. It is desirable that the rate of deduction in respect of life insurance premiums should also be expressed as a percentage of £1 although the amount SUBSISTENCE ALLOWANCES of the deduction remains unchanged. ---APPROVED This resolution would permit that to be done. sir. The Governor: Item No. II. The chair- man of the Finance Board. The Governor: is that agreed? Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I beg to It was agreed. move:—
Amendment of the Income Tax Act, 1970, in Relation Ito the Deduction in Respect of Life Insurance Premiums—Approved. —Motor Mileage Allowances for Civil Servants and Government Officials--Approved. —Subsistence Allowances- -Approved. 1792 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1.6, 1970
That Tynwald approves the following re- vised rates of Subsistence Allowances pay- working for a Government department, able to officials:— it may be that although his headquarters (1) Absence on duty more than five miles is in Douglas he may spend 365 days from headquarters between 12 noon and 3 p.m. or between 6 p.m. and 9 in the year outside of Douglas. H you p.m. (only one such allowance to be have a man travelling round the Island drawn per day) — increased from 5s. to on inspections he could be out almost 6s.; I2) Absence on duty within the Island every day of the week of a working more than five miles from headquarters week. He is already getting well paid, for a continuous period of 10 hours or and Government servants are well paid more — increased from Is. to 10s. in the Isle of Man when you compare in lieu of the corresponding allowances the salaries with other trades and jobs prescribed in sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) of in the Island. I feel, like in other paragraph (1) of the resolution of Tynwald of the 26th March, 1957. trades and jobs in the Island, he should provide his own sandwiches and cup of Your Excellency, subsistence allowances tea. He is already getting well paid to were last reviewed in 1957 and repre- provide it. Why should the State provide sentations have been received from more? I am completely against this. officers that they are now quite inade- quate. The allowances are payable when Mr. Devereau: Your Excellency, I officers are required by official duty to think the Court has taken slightly the be away from their headquarters during wrong idea on this. This subsistence periods which cover normal mealtimes. allowance is already in existence but Taking all matters into consideration it costs have inflated, and of course the would he reasonable to increase these extra shilling in each case from 9s. to allowances by ls. in each case to 6s. 10s. or from 5s. to 6s. is merely to and 10s. respectively I beg to move, cover the cost, that extra cost that in- sir. flation has brought about. Members may be right in saying that no such sub- The Governor: Will somebody second? sistence should be paid, but if subsis- Mr. Irving: I beg to second. tence is being paid, well then we have Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I have no got to agree that the inflationary ten- intention of supporting the resolution. dency that we have today must also be I very reluctantly allowed the previous paid. You cannot say that if it was one to go through without comment. But worth 2s. in 1948 it is not worth 6s. it seems to me that if these subsistence today. You have got to pay these in- allowances can be justified, that a flationary increases, and this is simply proper examination of the salaries and what this resolution is doing. wages that we are paying our officials Mr. Bolton: I think, Your Excellency, is a matter of great urgency. (Hear, it -should he made clear that if an official hear.) If the salaries and wages is bound to be away by reason of his are not sufficient I think it is quite duties during a mealtime, then there is wrong that we should be even consider- no doubt that additional expense falls ing giving a person subsistence allow- upon him. ance because he travels from Douglas Mr. Bell: That is not the resolution. to Ballacraine between certain hours. He only has to spend one minute at Absolutely ridiculous. I am not going to Ballacraine between 12 noon and 3 p.m. go on. but I am certainly voting against it. 'Mr. Bolton: The position is this, sir, Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I that no such claim would he admitted too will vote against this. I think it is and no payment would be made if he very wrong too. I feel that if a man is spent one minutes at Ballacraine. The
Subsistence Allowances—Approved.
TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1793 hon. member knows this quite well. This is for officers who duties probably ,Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency. to under orders from other officers, have clarify the position I would like to ask carried them into various other parts of the hon. members would they mind the Island to carry some additional ex- leaving the report that has been circu- pense. Some officers are away from lated on their desks this morning so that home by reason of their peculiar duties it can be collected at lunch time to have quite a jot. Government veterinary it rectified. The word " nationalisation " officers •for instance, are about all over should be " rationalisation ". The Secre- the Island. tary was notified of my intention— Mr. MacLeod: They knew that when Mr. Corkish: We thought you had they took the job. turned round to support Harold Wilson. MT. Bolton: Of course they knew it. Mr. MacDonald: It is how his mind is They knew they were going to get a working though. subsistence allowance when they took the job too ! Mr. P. Radcliffe: You see it would have to be drafted before Tynwald in Mr. MacLeod: What about the high- July. road men, they do not get any sub- The Governor: I think, in the interests sistence? of economy, the members can write in Mr. MacDonald: Give it to everybody! the word.
Mr. Bolton: This, sir, has been the Mr. P. Radcliffe: Could I actually. sir. condition of employment of these refer to the last paragraph of the report, officials for a very long time and what a misinterpretation of the report? Para- we are now doing is bringing the graph 20. amounts into line with present day 'The Governor: And 20. costs. I am quite sure of this that many Mr. P. Radcliffe: We could delete of the officials concerned feel that we paragraph 20 and alter " nationalisa- have been somewhat cheeseparing in the tion " to " rationalisation ". increase we have given them but we do feel that in all the circumstances this is The Governor: Is that agreed? reasonable and I have no hesitation It was agreed. whatever in moving the resolution standing in my name. The Governor: Is that agreed? It was agreed. INCREASED COSTS IN BUILDINGS AT SOUTHLANDS, PORT ERIN, AND COST OF REPAIRS OF PROPERTIES —APPROVED ALTERATION IN LOCAL The Governor: Item No. 12. The chair- GOVERNMENT BOARD REPORT man of the Board of Social Services. —AGREED Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency. I beg The Governor: Now, before calling to move:— the next item the chairman of the Local That Tynwald authorises the Treasurer of Government Board wishes to correct a the Isle of Man to apply out of the current misprint in a document which he has revenue of this Isle during the year ended 31st March, 1970. a sum not exceeding circulated. £6,000 to enable the Board of Social. Services
Alteration in !Local Government Board Report—Agreed. — Increased Costs in Buildings at Southlands. Port Erin, and Cost of Repairs of Properties— Approved. 1794 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
to make payments of increased costs in the Mr. Vereker: Thank you. Your Excel- building of Southlands. Port Erin—a home move:— for elderly people—and for carrying out lency. I beg to repairs to properties vested in the Board. WHEREAS the Isle of Man Airports Board I regret I have not been able to take are desirous of proceeding at an early date part in as many debates as I would with the Scheme for the erection of a Pier like to have done this morning but due from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronaldsway. to certain circumstances of which I am NOW THEREFORE Tynwald approves of the sure you are aware-- Airports Board carrying out the Scheme at an estimated cost of £45.000. Mr. MacDonald: You have been talk- Provided-- ing too much. (1) that no tender in excess of the estimated cost be accepted without the . Mr. Nivison: However, I suppose the concurrence of the Finance Board; and Court are very delighted with that. (2) that the Airports Board reports to It would be wrong of me however not Tynwald in October on the action to say something about this particular taken hereunder. resolution, No. 12, which does arise due (Reference: Item 1, page 105 of the Estimates of Government Departments and to the increased costs in Southlands Boards of Tynwald, 1070/71, as amended, and Home, incidentally which is now fully Item 12 of the Second Schedule to the occupied and is going splendidly to the Resolution of Tynwald of the 19th May. 1970.) satisfaction of all concerned I am sure. In moving this resolution, sir, for ap- including that of the Health Services proval by this hon. Court of the scheme Board with whom we are in consulta- for the erection of a pier from the Ter- tion about admissions and so forth. The minal Building to the Control Tower at expenses are greater than was antici- Ronaldsway Airport. I would prefer, sir, pated. The remainder of the £6,000 is 1.o deal with this in two parts. Firstly the in respect of additional plumbing which principles involved in the practical need we have put into some of the houses for such a project and then, secondly. for which we are responsible— Cam- the financial implications and explana- brian Place and Fort Street. This ac- tion of subsections one and two in the commodation did not have bathrooms resolution. As the hon. members and facilities of this kind which have may, or may not, recall that in been put in by the Board of Social Ser- the Airports Boar d presentation of vices, Despite the fact that there was an Estimates in March last, the proposed underspending in certain of the votes project was in fact fully described, to- ,Glencrutchery _last year relating to the gether with the full four-year plan laid Road. we are obliged to keep our vote on the table at that time and it is there separate and so we are obliged to come again for members to see and one hoped forward for this vote of £6,000 which I at that time that it received the full sup- move, Your :Excellency. port of this hon. Court, by the fact that Mr, Corkish: I beg to second. estimates and capital proposals were The Governor: Is that agreed ? agreed without debate and without It: was agreed. opposition. The present proposal, Your Excellency, is part of a four-year plan taking into account the consultants' report presented to the Airports Board ERECTION OF A PIER FROM THE in 1968. The Airports Board at that time. TERMINAL BUILDING TO THE of which I was a member, studied this CONTROL TOWER AT RONALDS- report, which had been asked for by the WA Y AIRPORT—APPROVED Board. in the light of future operations of the Airport and the continual fast The Governor: Item No. 13. The chair- moving improvements required to keep man of the Airports Board. up with the Board of Trade require-
Erection of e Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1795 ments and handling of increased air- objects of the proposed buildings are craft loads as airlines introduced dif- various. Firstly, it will provide new ferent types of aircraft. I might inform Customs accommodation which will free hon. members that at that time the the present Customs area for conversion consultants, who are experts in airfield to modern baggage handling facilities and airport design and operation, esti- for incoming passengers. This will be in- mated the cost of their recommenda- coporated in phase three of the plan. tions to be in the region of £300,000 to Secondly, the pier provides storage which would have been added the cost facilities for ground equipment and a of a new runway, costing at least two replacement airline workshop and stores million. After consultation with our own which will free further area of the architects the Board settled on a four- apron used by aircraft. Thirdly, the ex- year plan for modifying the concourse tension will provide a covered passage- and building the pier proposed now, the way for the majority of both embarking total cost for the whole project being and disembarking passengers. Obviously, approximately £.100,000; in fact, a third Your Excellency, we cannot provide the of what the consultants had recom- same covered entry straight on to the mended, The Finance Board at that aircraft, such as they do at Heathrow time were informed in November, 1968, and other modern airports, but hon. and 1969, of the consultants' report and members must know, by air travel, it of the proposed four-year plan. I wish to will provide similar advantages to the make it quite clear to hon. members. pier system used almost at any other sir, that the reason the runway exten- airport. Some members who may not be sion needs strengthening, although im- conversant with the operation of an portant and vital in order to operate the airport and all it involves may .say, and BAC 1-11, which is operating now, was I have heard this stated, why cannot you not part of the four-year plan and its carry on as you are instead of spending cost should not be confused with the money on this plan. So I would like to present project. However, integral with impress on this hon. Court that the air this operation, phase one of the plan, world is the most rapid moving in its that is the extension of the apron area development and modernisation and this at a cost of £10,000 has been carried concept applies to all airports including out to provide increased aircraft park- our own. One never fails to see buildings ing in order that space should not be and development going on continually lost when eventually a pier, or the pro- at Heathrow, Dublin, Manchester, Bel- posed pier. was constructed. The present fast and almost every other airport, proposal is phase two of the plan and is large and small. The amount of money really the most important phase as it is that airports throughout the United the key for efficient operation of phases Kingdom alone are spending amounts to three and four. Hon. members, sir, will millions, and what we are asking for in see by the two plans, one of which is total cost for the development of our only an architect's proposed sketch of airport is a flea-bite in comparison. The the arrangements and the other is a present airport at Ronaldsway has photograph of the type of building served the Island well but no major which is actually the G.P.O. Building at developments except for runway altera- Lytham St. Annes but it will give mem- tions have taken place since it was built bers an idea of what the eventual in 1952. Since them, hon. members, we building will be like. Hon. members will have moved from the operation of see that it is proposed to build a pier Rapides, D.C.3's, such as the old Dakota extension between the Airport building and similar aircraft, to the latest and the present control tower. The main modern concept of Jet B.A.C. 1-11.
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Bolding to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. 1796 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
During these years the problem of hind the times on arrival. This is most handling has increased, we have in- important as I am sure the hon. chair- creased payloads which have been built man of the Tourist Board will agree, up to—it is now becoming almost irri and combined with the necessity, and I possible, unworkable and causing con- stress, sir, necessity, of proper efficient siderable inconvenience and annoy- handling and operation, I would ask ance to the travelling public. (We hon. members to realise the vital need have, in the immediate future the very for the pier extension. Now, sir, if I may possible and definite introduction of come to the financial implications. As 800 Series Viscounts which mean higher members will have noted I did, and at payloads and increased numbers of that time I was not very pleased, this B.A.C. 1-11 operations. A proper system item in the final Budget figures was of baggage handling should have been placed under column 6— which meant installed at the airport several years that we could not receive for this pro- ago. Your Excellency, when I talk of ject until we had the approval by re- baggage handling, I not only mean the solution in Tynwald. Owing to the physical delivery of baggage to the in- seasonal operation of aircraft we coming passengers, but the quickest and must carry out this work in between easiest collectable method, but what is October next and next March, as we more important, is separation of in- had to do last year with the runway ex- coming and outgoing passengers. The tension. Thus we are confined to timing, present situation, sir, where everybody, not only with the actual building, but incoming and outgoing, are all centred we find ourselves in a very awkward in the same hall, checking in with bag- situation as since the last Budget in gage, trying to collect baggage, is, at Tynwald in May last there has not been times, chaotic. Instead of 'plane loads sufficient time to obtain definite tenders which used to come in bringing 30-odd and figures to present to this hon. Court passengers at a time we are now for this sitting. My hon. colleague the getting payloads of 63, 86 in one flight. hon. chairman of the Board of Educa- Our volume of traffic figures have built tion finds himself in the same situation. op, which can be made available for any The matter was discussed with the hon. members who are interested. When chairman of the Finance Board and one gets several payloads of this volume other members in another place and it operating, the present system is becom- was agreed that this and another re- ing so it cannot take it. I am finding, solution on the present agenda could be this season, sir, not only continuing put before hon. members to give us ap- complaints from the travelling public, proval to carry out the scheme with the but our own airport handling staff are provision of sub-heading one and two of complaining it is becoming impossible the resolution—that is, Your Excellency to cope. One airline alone has very and hon. members, when we obtain a recently brought in 160 passengers by firm tender which we feel is the correct two aircraft arriving within minutes of one to accept and I say, correct, because each other and hon. members can the lowest may not necessarily be imagine the difficulty of dealing with the correct tender to accept, if it is their luggage under the present circum- not within the limits of the agreed figure stances at Ron.aldsway. Your Excellency, we then take it to the Finance Board hon. members must not forget Ronalds- to obtain their concurrence. If it is way is one of our main tourist gate- within the limits then under these pro- ways to the Island. We must not fail visions approved by this hon. Court, we tourism by giving them actual experi- can go ahead and, in either case, a re- ence of incompetence and of being be- port will be made to this hon. Court in
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the JControl Tower at•Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1797
the sitting of Tynwald in October next on the action taken. This has been there are local firms which deal as necessitated because of no meetings of agents for this type of unit construc- tion and they will be asked to tender Tynwald being held after July until also. The timing in the case of the Air- October and at the same time will not ports Board is a crucial factor. We shall restrict necessary progress and com- also be doing some of the basic work, mencement of the work. Hon. members foundation work, electrical wiring, will have seen in the estimates that the painting with our own staff in order to original estimate for the pier extension save further costs. I hope, Your Excel- was £58,000. but this was based on a lency, this fully explains the situation conventional brick construction. After and I can assure hon. members that this Board consultation with our architect it project is vital and necessary for the was decided to endeavour to reduce the future operation of the airport. I beg cost and the cost of construction by to move the resolution standing in my investigating the possibility of unit name. construction, such as has already been Mr. Spittall: I beg to second, Your done in the Island by the Health Ser- Excellency, and reserve my remarks, vices Board and the Board of Education. Also, Your Excellency, the Finance The Governor: Is that agreed? Board would naturally have to cut down Mr. Bell: No. I hope that. this resolu- on estimated costs if possible. We have tion is damned out of the mouth of its since the Budget Tynwald done some sponsor. Some time ago, Your Excel- very intensive work on probable costs lency, one of your predecessors urged and it now appears. sir, that subject to everyone to buy Manx, that the economy firm tenders we shall be able to carry of the Island required the intention and out the work well within the £45,000 involvement of every person in the budget. The Finance Board have agreed Island to sustain and uplift the Manx to this figure being available, subject industries here and the Manx economy. to approval from this hon. Court. but What we have heard, and which we will on an arrangement of £35,000 in the hear later again from the Board of Edu- current year and £10,000 for next year. cation, is that the building industry, I, sir, am personally not very happy which we have created by Government with this split payment, but naturally involvement and fusing money is to be would bow to the wisdom and know- stranded and left high and dry. We are ledge of Government finance dictated by being asked to approve a scheme, the the Finance Board. There is one details of which we know not, we are aspect that the hon. chairman of being asked to give carte blanche to the Board of Education also is bring- employ contractors, their names, their ing up various resolutions appertaining records, their experience, we know not. to the building of schools and our two We have been told that the Manx build- respective Boards hope to work together ing industry will not be forgotten. I in obtaining tenders for the same read that as though we will send them a method of building from one firm. If this wreath. Your Excellency, last night can be done it would be to our mutual there was an extraordinary emergency benefit as the firm involved would ob- meeting of the Isle of Man Employers' viously have an advantage of a block Federation of particular concern and job for both Boards. Obviously, sir, as attended by the building industry and far as the Airports Board is concerned the building contractors in the Island, local firms will not be forgotten but who feel such alarm at the wording of traditional brick construction, for our the resolutions of the Tynwald agendas purpose, is obviously too expensive, but and most particular concern over a eir-
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport--Approved. 1798 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
cular letter which has been sent to them that either a Committee of Tynwald or out of courtesy, and which ipso facto the Board of Education would meet a invites them to tender for these works. delegation from the building industry to I received a smaller deputation this go over this circular letter and find out morning. Your Excellency, from these persons and have been asked to put and to establish if this is a genuine in- their point of view for consideration of vitation to compete on tender or is it Tynwald Court. The wording of this just a smoke screen and a whitewash circular letter is such that it invites the to see them all off. They are convinced building contractors in the Isle of Man and so am I, Your Excellency, that they to reply whether they are interested in are to be completely ignored. Now my drawing schools and designing, whether own preference for buildings is the they are able to come to commence the traditional type. There are occasions building on a certain date; whether they when the quick erection, the modular can• guarantee completion on a certain method can be suitable and can date, but no details of the building were serve the purpose. The question, of cost sent with this circular; no details of the is always something to be considered. number of children who may use it or Location also is something to be con- what facilities should be included in any sidered. It is one thing to build a little design they may do. All of the impor- boat, to play with in the bath, of paper tant information, if this was a genuine but you certainly would not allow the invitation, had been excluded because I Steam Packet Company to build their suspect, Your Excellency, that this is ships of cardboard and what we are just a smoke screen so that the big firms being asked here is to agree to a build- from England can come in and get this ing design and built similar to that work and later when the local firms exhibited by the photograph of a purely complain the Board of Education could temporary nature, to be put on one of hold up the answers to these, or say you the most exposed parts of the Isle of did not even reply— Man, Ronaldsway Airport, and that we are being asked to spend some E.43;000 The Governor: We are not on the as against the cost of E58:000 traditional Board of Education yet. building. Mr. Bell: No. sir, but I am linking it Mr. 1VIoFee: Who says ? Where did he with the chairman of the Airports get his figures from? Board, who has referred to the Board of Education estimates and he has said Mr. Bell: Well this is what he has that they have co-ordinated and they said. He said he had met the Finance intend using the same builder to do the Board and he has agreed that they Airports' work as the Board of Educa- can save this money by doing for the tion will use for their schools. Now I quick erection. I hope he was not in- want-- ferring that the Finance Board have made the policy for what type of build- Nr. Nicholls: He did not say that. ings we should have. This is taxpayers' surely? money and the taxpayers are entitled Mr. Bell: Well it is worth, Your Ex- to have a building that will last. I also cellency, playing the tape back and believe, Your Excellency, that the tax- listening to what the chairman of the payers of the Island are entitled to be- Airports Board did say. I am most sur- lieve that any money that Government prised to find him saying it but I wel- spends in such a colossal nature, with come confirmation of the fears that the everything combined, as much money as building industry have expressed to me. possible, should be retained within the Now they are hoping. Your Excellency, Island. On the question of the de-
Erection of .a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved.
TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1799
sign I understand the Airports Board and the thoughts behind the hon. mem- are not designing this building, that the ber's ideas are obviously correct. If we contractor/supplier have their own de- can give to local men and local 'builders sign department. Now this also means the opportunity to build, provided they a loss of professional fees within the are able to cope, we should always do Island— it. I would contend this morning. Your Excellency, that they are not in Mr. Nicholls: Rubbish. a position so to do; that the building Mr. Vereker: Our architect is a local industry is stretched far beyond its man. He has served the Board for many capacity, not only in respect to the years. building of local authority houses but the building of houses for many of the Mr. Bell: Yes. It is encouraging to young people who are paying rents at know, Your Excellency, that a local the moment for existing premises when architect has been employed on this but they should have been in their own six it is not so the case--I must not stretch or twelve months ago. I think we have too far the points of order; I must save got to face up to reality and support the some for the Board of Education's Airports Board and the Board of Educa- resolution. It will not be the case with tion this morning, Your Excellency. other matters to be dealt with later. I do hope that other Boards of Tynwald Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, the will not embark an this, completely ig- various items on the agenda seem to noring the Manx building industry. I have got well and truly criss-crossed intend to vote against this resolution. and Mr. Bell has been referring to a Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I letter that was sent out by a local would normally agree very much with architect employed by the Board of the hon. member for South Douglas but Education to the builders and far from having some experience of the building de-barring the local builders from taking industry at the present time and par- part in our scheme we are giving them ticularly in our own area, where there the opportunity to take part. All the are houses, a number of eight at St. estimates that were approved both at John's, where for weeks on end now Estimate time and Budget time were there has been a penalty clause of based on the system built unit buildings per week because of the running over and on the three schemes that the Board Lime. The inadequacy of the building of Education put forward the saving in industry to cope with the demands of costs alone is £100.000. Now, you do not the present day is so obvious .that the sniff at this — this is the cost of an extra hon. member must be as aware of it as school. On top of that— what I am. This does not just apply to that particular want, it is not just an Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, I isolated incident. The same applies to thought it was the Airport that we were housing projects in the Peel area, the dealing with, not— Peel and Western District Housing Com- mittee are responsible for the building Mr. Kneale: Yes, but Mr. Bell has of elderly people's homes— we will be introduced stuff from the Board of Edu- fortunate if we get those homes twelve cation and I am giving him the reply months after the date that they have now. given in the contract. Now where is the Airport going to be situated if this situa Mr MacLeod: That is next. tion is allowed to arise in this conection? They will not be able to cope, and we The Governor: We will have it all at have got to face realities. The principles once.
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control 'rower at Ronalds- way Airport–'Approved. 1800 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE .16. 1970
Mr. Kneale: Now on time where we tractor that was doing the work. Now can get these system built units up in a there are quite a few red herrings being matter of months . . . Now our local drawn that the local builders are going builders, the people you talk about who to be wiped out. The local builders are are doing such a good job for us—the given the full opportunity to come hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Ander- in on the scheme as long as they will son, has mentioned the delay in the employ the system built unit. Now the housing. On two schemes that we have reason why we have not laid down any had. small extension schemes on our hard and fast specification and designs schools that should have been up in is because these units fit into a set pat- under twelve months, the Braddan one tern. The various units differ so we are was twelve months late and the Onchan laying down certain specifications and scheme was thirteen months late. requirements. the number of classrooms, the hail and all the other units. We Mr. Corkish: What about the Foxdale are asking them, within their system one? that they employ, will they give us a scheme— give us a cost for a scheme. Mr. Kneale: We know what happened The people are being asked if they are to the Foxdale one — they are still not interested- If they are not interested, we finished. Now then, about the letter that are not interested in them. It is as was sent from the Board of Education simple as that. They have got to show to our architect mentioning the various interest themselves. A5 far as the archi- schemes that have been approved by tects— we heard Mr. Bell saying that Tynwald et Budget time, the letter the local architects were being wiped said it will be necessary in the case of out altogether. The local architects are certain schemes to invite contractors doing the work, they are preparing the who are engaged in this form of building plans, and they will get their percentage — the system building— to submit pro- on the full cost of the job, the same as posals relating thereto and then I shall they did before. but their fees will be be glad, therefore, if you will immedi- a little less if we use the system built ately take appropriate action to contact because the total cost of the job will be firms known to you who are engaged in less. You want to remember that the this field with a view to inviting them architects get their fees on the final cost to submit tenders. Now when people of the job and if the price of the job talk about system building they seem to goes up and they do not lift another imagine that all the work is done by the pencil on the job their fees go up as people from across. This is quite wrong. well. Now I think when we are talking Three-quarters of the work is tradi- about looking after the local people, it tional building in these sehemes and it is not only the local people—the few is usually a local contractor that does Ideal builders that we should be looking the work. Now in the case of our exten- after —it is the local taxpayer — the sion at Ballasalla School it is Grimshaws local ratepayer. These people also need that are doing the work — using the Vic consideration and when we can save in Hallam system of buildin g. The time and in money then I think we schemes that were built at Ballamona must bear these matters in mind. Hospital, used a Lesser system of build- ing—the local contractor involved was Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I would again Grimshaw. At Harcroft, the Elec- like to refer to the form of this resolu- tricity Board had a system built unit, tion. and I think that hon. members will an extension on their building—the Vic discover that resolution No. 13 and then Hallam — and again it was a local con- Nos. 16, 17 and 18 are all framed in the
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved.
TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1971) 1801 same way, and the suggestion under the included in the Budget will be vetted resolution is that no tender in excess of extremely carefully by the Finance the estimated cost, 'be accepted without Board before they go in the Budget, the concurrence of the Finance Board. I otherwise thesky is the limit. A Board would like to make it quite clear that this can come forward and say, we estimate arrangement has 'been made at the re- that this scheme will cost £100,000 and quest of the Isle of ,Man Airports Board. we put down £100,000. Now we must be and the other at the request of extremely careful and I am not say- the Isle of Man Board of Education, and ing this merely because I happen to be not at the suggestion in any way of the chairman of the Finance Board at this Finance Board. Now the difficulty has moment, 1 am saying this in protection of Tynwald —that in all the past years arisen as they both claim that they must it has been necessary for Tynwald to commence work in October and that approve of these schemes being com- they must accept tenders before Tyn- menced with full knowledge, with the wald will meet again in October, and full knowledge of every member of the somebody must act for Tynwald in the Court. Now we are not going to get this meantime or else they must wait. in these circumstances, and that is why They suggested therefore that they I think I am not in any way opposed to should come to Finance Board if their this proposal being carried through on tenders exceed the amounts that have this occasion. It will be necessary, appeared in the Budget. Now the first undoubtedly, for future Finance Boards suggestion of the Finance Board was to be very careful about the amounts this that they should in any case come to that are included for various schemes Finance Board with their tenders. They in any Budget if this method is to be felt that they should be allowed to spend followed. and I have no doubt that once the amount included in the Budget the ball starts rolling it will be fol- without reference to the Finance Board. lowed in other cases. but should come to Finance Board if they exceed that amount. Now it is on this point that I wish to issue a word of Mr Deveau; Your Excellency, the hon. warning. Finance Board included a sum chairman of the Finance Board has said of £45,000 for this particular resolution all I was going to say in much better in the Estimates — £35,000 this year terms, Your Excellency. with a possible £10,000 for next year. Finance Board also included figures for the various schools that will be pro- Mr. Nicholls: Your Excellency. I am posed. Finance Board did not quite naturally wholeheartedly in sup- examine the figures or the estimates, port of this resolution, and I must accept and those estimates are not based on a share of the responsibility for it, be- any tenders, they are merely " guess- cause the four-year plan which the timates by the Boards concerned that present chairman has referred to was this is the figure of costs that will be devised some years ago while I was still incurred. Now it may well be that either a member and chairman of the Board. this airport job or one of the schools I was very astonished hearing the may be considerably less than the outburst of the hon. member for South amount that appeared in the Budget. Douglas speaking on behalf of the local They may be considerably more— and building trade, and the concern which am issuing the warning now that if both he and they expressed at the pos- this procedure is to be adopted again sibility of English firms coming in to in future years then the figures to be carry out this and other operations in
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
the Island. I would suggest to the of the Airports Board, and indeed, as he building trade that they should put their seems to have been dragged into this awn house in order first— also, the chairman of the Board of Edu- Mr. Creer: It is in order, you need not cation. I believe that when you are worry about that. dealing with a relatively fluid situation Mr. Nicholls: Not generally, sir, and such as the development of an airport, you know it. Go and ask 99 out of 100 or coping with the rapid4y expanding young people who have placed orders child population, the wise course to for houses today, how long they have adopt is to use a fluid or flexible system had to wait over and above the time of construction. On many occasions in promised by the tbuilder to get occupa- the past I have asked the chairman of tion of their houses. the Board of Education would he not give consideration to building his Mr. Creer: What of them, it is the schools in this sort of way. I am comeover firms that are doing that. quite certain that the chairman of the What are you talking about? Airports Board in this particular case is not only helping himself by having a Mr. Nicholls: A lot of them are system of building which is relatively " mushroom firms ". I would not even quick and relatively less expensive, he call them genuine members of the Manx will also have a system of building building industry. But that being so. which will enable re-planning to take Your Excellency, this raises the ques- place when it is necessary in perhaps tion of the so-called modular type of twenty years' time when the whole con- construction. Now it is a highly- cept of air transport may well have specialised business as we know, al- altered, si•r. Now with regard to the though there is nothing new about it. question of the local building trades. I It might interest hon. members to can remember a time when the desire know that the present lounge and res- to develop the Island was held back taurant at the Airport was built, I think not so much by the lack of availablity it was in the year 1950. of a modular of finance as by the simple fact that type of construction, the materials at the building industry was physically in- least supplied by an English firm and it capable of carrying out any more work was carried out by direct labour. The at least in the conventional traditional remainder of the terminal buildings, i.e. way, I think that if we are expecting to the traffic hall and the Customs area, get the amount of work done which were built by a very famous English appears on this agenda, the only possible firm of Richard Costain. At no time way of getting it done is to adopt a was there any protest made by the local more modern, more flexible, more building trades, which were not by any streamlined method of going about our means busy at that time. in fact they work. I am certain that this is the way were very slack indeed — there was no to do it. There is still plenty of work outcry then about it. So I think, sir, that left for the traditional methods still this concern which has ben expressed is being employed by certain areas of the very ill-founded and could be ignored. local trades. I believe that it will I do support the resolution and I not do any harm to established busi- intend to support the following one as nesses here if all this work, both for well. the Airports Board and the Board of Education is carried out by specialists Mr. Simcocks: Your Excellency, in from Great Britain, because, as I say, rising to support this resolution I would I am sure there is plenty left for other like to congratulate both the chairman people. This will save money, it will
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Budding to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1803
save time, it will give flexibility, and 1 Tynwald with all its proposals of both welcome the fact that this system of revenue and capital expenditure, if building is now at last being accepted Tynwald pastes it and it is included in by Boards of Tynwald in their develop- the Budget you could then spend it. I think we would avoid having to take ment programmes. I am sure we are these rather stubborn methods which going about it in the right way. As for are .being put forward today, because I the question of the complaints of the believe it is the only way in which these hon. chairman of the Finance Board, two chairmen can take steps to get the he complained that there has not been work done without being strung along very much opportunity given for the for the best part of the nine months specialists. But, sir, it is always a bit before they can get the work done. disappointing perhaps for the chairman of la Board having brought forward Mr. Callister: Your Excellency, very schemes to the Finance Board in his briefly I would just like to put one annual estimate and having discussed question. but 'before saying that I think them at considerable length. and then we have very good reason to be proud having left the higher sanctum from of our Airport from its very inception this consultation in the knowledge, as he to today, and I am wholeheartedly in thinks, that his estimates have been support of the chairman's proposals. accepted by the Finance Board, only to There is one question I would like to find when Budget Day comes along that ask, and not only for my own satisfac- his capital works have all been placed tion, but that of others: If this building in column ,6, which means that although is made between the main hall and the the job has been passed by the Finance control tower, will it interfere with the Board, although it was included in the arrival and departure of 'planes? This Budget, and although the Budget nas has been put to me and I would like the been passed, he still has to produce a chairman just to answer that. detailed plan to get it approved by Tynwald. As the Budget in Tynwald is Mr. IMcFee. Your Excellency, I was in May you have very little opportunity just noticing this Memorandum which to get anything done that side of the has been circulated by the Local long summer vacation, with the result Government Board, where it says that that you do not get a scheme before Tynwald passed on the 17th June, 1969, Tynwald for approval in terms of the following terms: " In view of the column 6 until October. This means Isle of Man Government's policy of ex- that you do not get work started again pansion, the concern of local architects until you are already producing your and builders over meeting requirements next year's estimate to Tynwald in the involved and the problem of obtaining following March. It is to deal with that competitive tenders, Tynwald respect- sort of problem, I think, that the two fully asks His Excellency in Executive chairmen are adopting this system. If Council to give consideration and make the chairman of the Finance Board had recommendation to Tynwald in the fol- not put these matters in column 6, it lowing matters: the greater use of may be that a different system of ap- modular modern methods, systematic proach would be made. I have often building techniques and the rationalisa- felt, you know, that the debates we have tion of the building industry." Now I every March on our Estimates are a should have thought, sir, that having bit of a waste of time because are do listened to Mr. Bell this morning that not seem to get any finality about them. before a memorandum which is so im- If we were to alter our system where portant as this was circulated, that the if an estimate of a Board is accepted by building industry realising that this
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. 1804 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1070 resolution existed, and that the Local it is a great expanse of a building all Government Board was making very containing a number of buildings as well serious enquiries into the whole situa- as a 12-foot passageway, and I have tion. that they should immediately have quickly totted up the square footage and asked for a deputation representing I find that it is going to be at least 8,000 square feet. Now if you allow them and their views to meet the Local today, even to the conventional builder, Government Board on this very matter. £6 per square foot you are not very I feel that there is some blame to far out in the cost that is contained in be attached not to local builders in this resolution today — £45,000 — and particular, but to the local building that is for housing. But you must take organisation. They lack some proper co- into account that many rooms and many ordination and method by which they provisions are being made in this can, when they realise that they are to scheme and I would say that the costing te in any way affected by a resolution is very fair. Now with regard to the of Tynwald or a Board of Tynwald, Board which I represent and which has that they should not have some been mentioned by one of the speakers, machinery or organisation by which we have used the constructional they ,can make their particular ap- methods of Lessers. There is only one proach; and as such, I feel that the thing would warn persons or Boards Manx building industry as an organisa- who are interested in using this method, tion has missed the boat. Many years and that is to ensure that you have ago, when I was on the Local Govern- safeguards against expansion and con- ment Board with other colleagues, even traction. This is the most important with my own colleague Mr. Radcliffe, factor, and this is one thing on which we did suggest that if we are to conventional 'building can score over the meet the modern situation then other constructional methods. I believe the builder in the Isle of Man too that this is the greatest difficulty, this is must recognise the signs of the times a long building and I would warn the and recognise that progress must be chairman that if it does go to a modu- made. Only one or two builders at lar firm that the question of ex- that time reciprocated and immediately pansion and contraction may be taken went into the modular system with very up to obviate later disintegration and satisfying results, I should say, to them- cracks, and so on. that are causing selves, and generally to the community. concern to other boards that have ven- Now I want to take up the point with tured on this method. However, I am regard to conventional 'building and the supporting the resolution, sir, but I do modular systems. In my opinion, there hope in answer to Mr. Bell that I would is very little difference in cost, but the suggest to him to go back to' the orga- big difference is in the quick aptitude nisation and say, get together with the by which firms can quickly, by the Local Government Board and get an modular systems, erect the building in agreement as to what they can do, the time, and this is the most important best methods to be used, and I am sure factor between conventional building the Local Government Board is only and the modular system. Now in this too willing to meet them at any time. matter I have looked ... It seemed such I think that if this was 'accomplished a simple thing when it was first sug- that more progress would be done even gested on the agenda that it 'was to be much more quickly. a pier connecting the control tower, but this, gentlemen, it not a pier at Mr. Greer: Your Excellency, I am all When you look at the plan that speaking as a member of Tynwald now has been circulated today, we find that and not as a builder, but I would like
Erection of o Pier from the Terminal 'Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1805 to make my position absolutely dear indeed. Although I will not oppose this from the start, that I am not against vote or the vote of the Board of Educa- any English firm or a modular building tion, because of the urgency. I do recall corning to the Isle of Man. I am against that some years ago there was a similar this resolution, Your Excellency, for the sole reason that it is brought here urgency in the Ramsey Cottage Hospital wrongly. 'T y n w a l d approves the and some kind of prefabricated exten- Airports 'Board carrying out its sion was mooted at that time. Many scheme estimated at £45,000. Now that times there have been emergencies; the £45.000 will be used no matter what greatest emergency was the Pulrose happens. Then, "No. 1 — that no tender estate that was built some years ago as in excess of the estimated cost be ac- a temporary measure. It is still there. cepted without the concurrence of the It was subsequently known as "Shang- Finance Board ". Every other matter, hai " and these houses were built of the Local Government Board housing asbestos sheets and in this modular schemes. they have got to go to the method. It was called prefabrication in Finance Board and then they come here those days. It is not as good, it does not for the approval of Tynwald. The provide the quality of the orthodox tender in the first place goes to the building, and I would hope that we Finance Board and then. comes here for should use these methods but only in approval of Tynwald. Local authority extreme emergencies. I do say, as houses— they advertise for tender, they chairman of the Imbalance of Popula- come in, they go with the approval of tion Committee when we discussed the the Local Government Board, the ap- question of building which is so clearly proval of the Finance Board and then tied up with the imbalance of popula- come here as a petition. Now here tion and the expansion, that the building we are giving £45,000 to the Airports industry did inform us that provided Board to spend at their will and. make the Isle of Man people did not lose their no mistake, it will be spent. The same heads we can have a successful indus- will be in the other resolutions to try running for a fair period of time, follow. I would like to see that No. 1 - provided they knew what they were re- that no tender in excess of the estimated quired to do. But people were not coat be accepted without the concur- prepared. Any Government department rence of the Finance Board — that all was not prepared to say; we will re- tenders should go to the Finance Board quire so many houses during the next before the Airports Board is authorised ten years. They are going from day to to spend this money. day and week to week, and I believe that the industry in the Isle of Man, if Mr. Vereker: What happens if they we are not very careful, we can always are all on holiday and they cannot get swing with the pendulum on the modu- hold of it? lar or the prefabricated type of building. Mr. Creer: I am against the resolution Do not let us overdo it. Let us do it in solely +because it is going against the these cases because of emergency. Let principle of this Court. us see that a certain amount of this is going on at Ballasalla, at Onchan, where Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, in we have our half-prebricated type of support of the resolution on the house, it is put up in a shell and the agenda, it does appear that it has bricks built round about it, this type of evolved into a discussion on the methods thing. There have been attempts to put of building. I would like to come in mere sheds up, the Canada type, with on the support of Mr. Ball's observa- cedar wood, an awful lot of cedar wood. tions. 1 think they are very timely This has not been satisfactory in the
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved, 1866 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
Isle of Man because of the salt air and tive Boards hope to work together in other characteristics. I would say that obtaining tenders for the same method we should support, in my view, these of building from one firm. If this can two resolutions because of the urgency be done it will be to our mutual benefit of the problem both at the Airport and as the firm involved will obviously have for the schools. In future we should an advantage of a block job for both not be in such a panic and we should Boards, Then I quoted: " Obviously, as try at all times to get the traditional far as the Airports Board is concerned, buildings wherever it is possible even local firms will not be forgotten, but although it may cost a few pounds more. traditional building structure for our purpose is obviously too expensive but The Governor: Do you wish to reply? there are local firms who deal as agents Mr. Vereker: Your Excellency. T am for this type of unit construction and afraid this debate has turned rather they will be asked to tender also ". I away from Airport development and got also stated that much of the founda- mixed up with the hon. member for tion work, electrical wiring and paint- South Douglas' usual platform for argu- ing will be done with our own staff to ment not appertaining to the subject save further cost, and you cannot have of the resolution. In answer to him, sir. anything more local than that. if he had listened to my speech I have already assured this hon. Court that Mr. Bell: Is that included in the firms will be given every chance. He £45,000? stated that details had not been given. Well, what details does he want ? I tried to fully explain to this hon. Court in Mr. Vereker: It is. It has been costed detail and the Object behind this exer- under that heading. The traditional cise. We are all concerned, sir, with building is too costly altogether and the giving local builders work, but invari- proposed pier in this unit construction ably I know from experience and I with the type of unit modular develop- know other hon. members have had the ment can, with modern development as same experience on their various fast as it is in the aircraft world, be Boards, we are told when we offer them altered very, very simply by taking the job that they are too busy, or as units out inside and re-positioning them happens in many a case, they overprice somewhere else which you canon't do themselves on a tender in order to price with a brick wall. There was an accu- themselves out of a job. As I said, we sation about using other architects, but will not ignore local industry, and I can re-assure the hon. member that surely, sir, co-operation between, as I our architect is local, and I would like to suggested and hoped for, between the remind him that through his work and two Boards is a sensible one for costs, his experience with the Airports Board no matter what firm is used, whether he is saving us literally £200,000 on it is local or otherwise. Since the paper, and his experienced design and hon. member did not appear to listen plan which has been approved by the to my speech properly, sir, I will quote Board, his plan will be sent to the firms what in actual fact I did say. to quote for that particular plan. They will not be doing any designing them- Mr. Bell: Not all of it again, please! selves. The. hon. member for Glenfaba, sir, I thank for his very constructive re- Mr. Vereker: I said that there was one marks re the buildings and these are aspect that the hon. ohairman of the facts. I would also like to thank the hon. Board of Education is also bringing up chairman of the Finance Board for his in his resolutions appertaining to the financial explanation. But. sir, our building of schools and our two respec- figures that are coming up are no longer
Erection of a Pier from the Terminal Building to the Control Tower at Ronalds- way Airport—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1.6, 1970 1807 a " guesstimate " and are rapidly be- he has missed the point of the target of coming a fact. I had some figures only the construction needed due to the handed to me this morning which looked operation of the Airport, and the only working time is in between the summer like being well within the o-e45;00.0 seasons, So I hope to make him quoted. and if Mr. Bolton, as the hon. swallow his accusations regarding chairman of the Finance Board, does spending every penny of the £45,000. not like the system of these two resolu- but if we do well I assure this hon. tions which are necessitated by urgency, Court we must not penny-pinch for the well I would suggest that he puts these hon. member's benefit. Mr. Nivison — items no longer in column 6 which we will not be using wood panelling in creats this difficulty. I would like to any form outside because of the fire thank the hon. member of Council, Mr. risk of aircraft, and therefore we shall Nicholls, as past chairman of the Air- be using probably asbestos covered ports Board—he was of course part of panels, and you need not worry that the the original concept.—and I would like wood will flake off or go cheap looking to thank him for his support and his because of this aspect, ibut, sir, this hon. past work for this particular project. Court must take the responsibility of The hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Sim- proper baggage handling and proper cocks, gave very practical comments handling of passengers at Ronaldsway. espedially with regard to my column 6 We must not antagonise tourists on their system grouse, which I always have. arrival; this is not the way to encourage The hon. member for North Douglas. tourism, and I would ask the hon. Mr. Callister, I would like to assure members to realise and appreciate this him, sir, that the building of this pier factor of emergency and the fact that will not interefere with 'plane traffic we have a main gateway to the Island as the present is in actual fact through the Airport and I would ask serving as a bottleneck, and it will the hon. Court to support this resolution. only alleviate one 'plane parking space. I beg to move. It will actually make it much easier to The Governor: I shall now put the park with improved apron extension question. Those in favour please say each side of the building, and I would aye, those against say no. The ayes have like to remind this hon. Court that the it. essential principle of this pier building is to prevent, or free the present Cus- boms area for baggage handling. and will make it easier for the separation of EXTENSION OF THE AIRFIELD incoming passengers and their baggage LIGHTING — APPROVED from the present hall where you can get possible congestion through delayed air- The Governor: Item 14. The chairman craft. The hon. member for Council, Mr of the Airports Board. McFee, he quoted the total area. I would Mr. Vereker: Your Excellency, I beg like to remind him that this does not to move:— include all building as some part of it is a parking space for equipment, but I That Tynwald -approves the Scheme for the Extension of the Airfield Lighting at an esti- will certainly take note of his very kind mated cost of £18.000. suggestion of safeguarding against ex- (Reference: Item 3, page 105 of the Esti- pansion and contraction. We have a mates of Government Departments and very sound experi e nc e d local Boards of Tynwald, 1970/71.) architect. and I am sure that he will not Sir, in moving this resolution I would forget this particular point. The hon. firstly like to make known that frankly member for Middle, Mr, Creer, I think it would have been a waste of time and
Extension of the Airfield Lighting—Approved. 1808 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 words during the Budget speech to state Mr. McFee: Your Excellency, could my objection again to the placing of this I asked the hon. chairman is this land particular item under column G. This developed or ready for development, or item of lighting at a cost of £18,000 is is it undeveloped? absolutely mandatory and a legal re- Mr. Kneale: It is undeveloped land. sponsibility, and I apologise for having to take up the Court's time for some- Mr. McFee: It is very costly. thing that they must in all honesty ap- The Governor: Those in favour please prove without hesitation. When I state, say aye, those against say no. Carried sir, that this— unanimously. Members: Agreed. Mr. Vereker: If the hon. Court wishes to agree I will stop here. NEW INFANTS' SCHOOL AT STONEY The Governor: Agreed? ROAD. DOUGLAS—APPROVED It was agreed. The Governor: Item 16. The chairman of the Board of Education. Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I beg to move:— PURCHASE BY THE ISLE OF MAN BOARD OF EDUCATION OF LAND That Tynwald approves the Scheme for the erection and equipment of new Infants' ADJOINING KIRK MICHAEL SCHOOL School Premises on a site in Stoney Road. —APPROVED Douglas. at an estimated cost of £70,000. Provided— The Governor: Item 15. The chairman (1) that no tender in excess of the esti- of the Board of Education. mated cost be accepted without the concurrence of the Finance Board; and Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency. I beg (21 that the Board of Education reports to to move:— Tynwald in October on the action taken hereunder. That Tynwald approves of the purchase by (Reference; Item 19 of the Second Schedule the Isle of Man Board of Education of a parcel of land adjoining Kirk Michael to the Resolution of Tynwald of the 19th School, having an area of 1-729 acres or May, 1970 relating to the Annual Estimates of thereabouts from Mr. C. W. Cannell. of Government Departments and Boards of Lhergy Vreck, Kirk Michael. for the sum of Tynwald. 1970/71 as amended.) £2,000. Your Excellency, I have explained on Your Excellency, the details of the several occasions the great urgency of resolution explain the situation of the providing extra school places as soon land. If I could explain the preparation as possible in several areas of the Island. for expansion, there is a lot of building The most pressing is in Douglas where going on in this area, the size of the we must have this proposed school built school is increasing. and it is necessary and ready for occupation by Easter next to purchase land to enable us to extend year. It will he impossible. owing to the this school if and when required. The summer recess, to achieve this if we immediate needs of the area will be met have to go through the normal pro- by erecting a mobile classroom on the cedure of getting tenders and the existing play area of the school during coming to Tynwald for the money vote, the summer, and part of this land will because it would be October before we be used to provide a new playground. came to Tynwald. The hon. chair- I move the resolution standing in my man of the Airports Board explained name, sir. this when he was moving his resolu-
Purchase by the Isle of Man Board of Education of Land adjoining Kirk Michael Schoolr—Approved. —New Infants' School at Stoney Road, Douglas—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE le, 1970 1809 tion, so I will not. repeat the difficul- he becomes the main contractor and ties and the reason for coming in this uses the local sub-contractors, he is way. The chairman of the Finance getting a charge on every bit of labour Board has also explained that these re- he sub-contracts within the Island, and solutions were put in this way at the that goes on. It would be much better request of the two Boards. Now the if economy is one of the objects, as we proposal is to provide an infants' school have been told, to have the main con- on this site which will relieve the ex- tractor as the local builder. treme pressure which is being experi- The Governor: Would you like to enced at Tynwald Street and Murray's reply? Road schools. Now time is the essential factor and only system building can Mr. Kneale: Yes. Your Excellency. I provide the goods in the time we re- made it quite clear earlier on that local quire. I move the resolution standing in builders will not be excluded. If they my name, sir. can provide the goods at the right price then they will get the job in the right Mr. MacDonald: Could I ask the time. These are the three things that chairman of the Board of Education, we must stipulate and we are emphasis- Your Excellency, when he gives these, ing the time factor as being most im- could he give us the figure of how many portant. children you are taking in all these The Governor: Could you say just how three schools? many . . ?
Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, it may be Mr. Kneale: Oh yes, sorry Mr. Mac- a surprise to members of the Court and Donald. This school will cater for eight even the chairman, the hon. chairman classes and the numbers will be 35 for of the Board of Education. but I also the present but the numbers are likely support the .need for school building. to go down if an implementation of the and if Tynwald Court is to hold the teachers' threat not to teach classes of opinion that rationalising the tradition over 30 by 1975 is carried out, so you of building, the system of building, is can say anywhere between 240 and 30(1. going to meet our problem, well I go The Governor: Is that agreed? along with it. But will the chairman, in his reply, state positively, please, that It was agreed. the local builders will not be excluded? Whether they are fully extended or not, I think it is a point of principle with the trade that they should at least be asked NEW INFANTS' AND JUNIOR can they cope. I understand that one of SCHOOL AT ASHLEY HILL, ONCHAN the most admirable examples of this —APPROVED systemised building has been done by the Board of Education at the Balla- The Governor: Item 17. The chairman salla primary. It is going very well. I' of the Board of Education. understand it is admired by the builders. Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency. I beg Now this can be done with the rest of to move:— the contracts provided that the link-up That Tynwald approves the Scheme for the would be the local builder being the erection and equipment of new Infants' and Junior School Premises on a site at Ashley main contractor is the formula that we Rill. Onchan, at an estimated cost of £70,000 follow. That would keep the money on Provided— the Island•. But once the formula is re- (i) that no tender in excess of the esti- versed and the designer of the super- mated cost be accepted without the structure of this type of building, once concurrence of the Finance Board: and
New Infants' and Junior School at Ashley Hill, Onchan—Approved. 1810 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 107'
(2) that the Board of education reports to NEW INFANTS' SCHOOL, LEZAYRE Tynwald in October on the action taken ROAD, RAMSEY—APPROVED hereunder. The Governor: Item 18. (Reference: Item 21 of the Second Schedule to the Resolution of Tynwald of the 19th May, 1970 relating to the Annual Estimates Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency. item 18. of Government Departments and Boards of I beg to move:— Tynwald. 1970/71 as amended.) That Tynwald approves the Scheme for the erection and equipment of new Infants' Item 17, sir, again is similar. We have School Premises on a site in Lezayre Road. had the case of Onchan and we know Ramsey, at an estimated cost of .C91.000. how Onchan is expanding. We know Provided— that we have extended the existing (1t that no tender in excess of the esti- school on two occasions and it is over- mated cost be accepted without the crowded already before the extensions concurrence of the Finance Board; and are completed. This school again will (2) that the Board of Education reports to cater for about 24-0 to 300 and it Tynwald in October on the action taken will make provision for an exten- hereunder. sion — there is plenty of land there (Reference: Item 22 of the Second Schedule for an extension for a Junior School if to the Resolution of Tynwald of the 19th this turns out to be necessary at a later .May, 1970 relating to the Annual Estimates of Government Departments and Boards of date. I beg to move the resolution Tynwald, 1970/71 as amended.) standing in my name. This is the erection of an infants' Mr. Bell: I rise to second the resolu- school on the site on the Lezayre Road tion and would politely ask would the at Ramsey, at an estimated cost of hon. chairman of the Board of Educa- 0.91,000. Provision will be made again tion to make himself available with the in this school for an extension for a Board's architect at some early date to junior school, when necessary, and that explain away a misunderstanding is why there is a slight increase over which, possibly, our local building in- the other two. Again the numbers will dustry may have. This would go a long be reasonably the same, about 300 way towards keeping happier relation- children, but we will be making pro- ships. vision for some other facilities to cater for a junior school. Sir Ralph Stevenson: Could the hon. chi irman tell us whether the £70.00 in- Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, just cludes the price of the land ? one question. With all these again on the agenda, could I ask the hon. chair- Mr. Kneale: No, sir, we already own man of the Board what has happened the land. to the extension for Peel School here? The Governor: Do you wish to reply The Speaker: Your Excellency. I to your seconder? rise to oppose this resolution, sir. As I understand it the siting is to be on the Mr. Kneale: We will meet the builders Lezayre Road along which you have, at and explain anything they wish on the the present moment, a green area lying contracts. They have been given the between the road and the development opportunity to show an interest and if carried out by the Local Government they do not show an interest— Board. I am interested to know whether The Governor: Is that agreed? or not you have, in fact, had planning permission for this because, to my mind. It was agreed. the siting in this way is going to be
New Infants' School, Lezayre Road. Ramsey—Approved, TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 181.1
completely detrimental to the interests Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I would of Ramsey and I am astounded that like to make it quite clear, in case any Ramsey Town Commissioners should of the members' suspicious minds got ever have contemplated selling a foot. of this land to the Board of Education. the better of them that I am quite cer- Here you have one of the delightful areas tain that the hon. Speaker's remarks are of 'Ramsey, along the Lezayre Road, not in any way influenced by the fact out through to Milntown, one of the that this is the show field for the Agri- sort of avenues in the Isle of ilVian that cultural Show. What 1 would like to we want to maintain; these green open point out to the hon. Mr. Speaker, how- spaces which are always so delightful. It was reduced in value, admittedly, ever, is this, as I have explained before. with the housing estate but surely it that the very fact that the school is to serves that housing estate as a play- be put on a site automatically sterilises ground at the present time, and as for to a large extent a considerable area of these pipe dreams of having playgrounds that land and keeps it green. The size and new games fields on Pooildhooie, of the School itself is not so important as far as 1 am concerned they will prob- as the size of the grounds in which the ably come into operation at the same school statutorily must stand under time as the rest of South Ramsey and present conditions and, therefore, if any- heaven only knows when that will be. thing is to go there, I am. quite certain, Now, Your Excellency, I think here the that for posterity it is much better that Board of Education should be asked to a school should go there than any other think again, and to look for a site in type of building. Therefore I would Ramsey which is not going to destroy be strongly in favour of this even if I one of Ramsey's amenities, and which is were not on the Board of Education or not going to destroy what is one of the the Planning Committee, but, sir, I most popular areas in the Island today would just like to pump our own little for residential purposes. All this gradual parish pump and ask my chairman if erosion of these little attractions is to he can tell us whether he hopes to get me a thing that is going to really prove the infants' school for Rushen onto the ruinous to the Island in the course of July agenda, with any luck? time, and to have a Board of Tynwald embarking on this process and aiding Mr. Devereau: Your Excellency, very it is not at all acceptable as far as I am briefly, we have spent this morning, if concerned. It is on that basis that this last resolution is approved, some- I am opposing it. The school is needed, thing over £300,000. We have given ap- the school must be built, but find your- proVal for the spending of over that selves another site, as far as 1 am con- sum of money on buildings, all of which cerned. we have not had tenders or the full data of the construction or anything Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: Two very simple else. Now this is unusual, to say the questions I hope the chairman will be least, and I must accentuate what able to answer, Your Excellency. Know- the chairman of the Finance Board ing that it is an infants' school, would said that resolutions brought in he please inform the Court how far this manner must give this Court cause along the Lezayre Road this school will for some concern. We should have, in be. say, from the present Parliament the normal way. tenders and costs for Square, and has he received any com- all these projects. We have had none. plaints as to the relationship to that Now when the Finance Board —future distance far the infants who will have to Finance Boards, come to consider walk to school? Budget estimates, they will have to go
New Infants' School, Lezayre Road, Ramsey—Approved. 1812 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16. 1970 very, very carefully into the costs of all lar purposes, including a school and these schemes that are being pro- subsequently an old folks' home, and it pounded and laid before them— was agreed by all concerned. Mr. Irving: Cost of maintenance, sir. Mr. P. Radcliffe: It may have been agreed with the Commissioners, but it Mr. Devereau: The capital schemes, has never been before the Planning the costs of these things have got to be Committee. gone into. They will have to be gone Mr. Nivison: I understand there were into before they can be approved by the representatives of the planning Com- Finance Board before being laid before mittee there. Tynwald. Kneale: Your Excellency, in reply The Governor: Do not the respective to the various questions. Mr. Speaker Boards do that ? has raised the question of the green Devereau: I only hope that in belt. Mr. Crellin has answered this, I passing resolutions in this manner feel, quite clearly. One way to maintain we are not laying our backs open a green belt is to put a school on this to a whip that might be applied. area, because a large portion of it-- I feel that this is — while approving The Speaker: What about the old these resolutions this morning and folks' home ? voting for all of them, I feel that we Mr. Kneale: You know the area — the have got to be careful that we are going old folks' home will be at one end of it. to apply this method in future, sir. Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency-- The Speaker: Yes. I know this. The Governor: Well, I think we Mr. Kneale: At one end, but the main could-- part wilt still be maintained as playing fields. Now this is a site that was Mr. P. Radcliffe: I just want to get offered to us by the Ramsey Commis- one point clear. In reference to the re- sioners and we jumped at it. Mr. marks made by the hon. Mr. Speaker, Speaker said that we should have gone with which I go along quite a consider- and looked for another site. 'We have able amount of the •way, I would like been looking for a site in Ramsey for the hon. chairman of the Board of Edu- the last 18 months without being able to cation to inform the Court when they find one. If we could get some of the intend submitting for planning ap- rubble cleared out of South Ramsey we proval for this land. I do know at might have been able to find a site the end there is going to be very nearer the centre of the town. strong opposition to this suggestion and Mr. Bell: That will not help you on before this hon. Court agrees to provide your planning. the money to build a school on a piece of ground that has not already got plan- Mr. Kneale: But this is a point. We ning approval on it, 1 would like to have searched this area and around the know when he intends to bring it in for outskirts and all over the place without this land. being able to find a site. It was a god- send to us when the Ramsey Commis- Mr. ■Nivison: Your Excellency, on that sioners offered this site to both our- question I understood that there was selves and to the Board of Social Ser- already an agreement between the vices. Now when you think of this site Ramsey Commissioners, the Local Gov- you will realise it is an ideal site, be- ernment Board, the Board of Education cause the Ramsey Commissioners, or and the Board of Social Services, on should we say the Local Government the suitability of this land for particu- Board have built a new housing estate
New Infants' School, Lezayre Road, Ramsey—Approved. TYNW,ALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1813
on the Lezayre Road adjacent to this Mr. Anderson: Peel extension. site, We will be building a school where Mr. Kneale: Peel extension. Well, I the children are. On the other side of am not pushing my luck this Tynwald. the road we have got our Junior and These others are in the pipeline. We will Senior sections of the Ramsey Grammar School. If there is a need for extension move them as quickly as we possibly of playground they can use the play- can. ground area, this extra area we will The Governor: Is that agreed ? have on this Lezayre site. As regards It was agreed. planning permission, it is only quite re- The Court will now adjourn until 2.30 cently we have had full concurrence p.m. from the Ramsey Commissioners. Whereas we have made an arrangement with the Commissioners' Finance Com- mittee for this land we had to wait LAXEY VILLAGE COMMISSIONERS a while before we got the approval of —PURCHASE OF LAND IN the full Board. We will have our ap- GLEN ROAD. LA XEY—APPROVFX) plications in for planning approval this week for approval in principle. The Governor: Item 19. The chair- Mr. McFee: It will go to appeal. man of the Local Government Board. Mr. Kneale: Then it will depend upon Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency. I the Planning 'Committee how quickly beg to move:— we get the thing forward. Mr. Devereau remarks about his concern about the WHEREAS the Isle of Man Local Govern- ment Board (hereinafter called " the Board-) methods employed. :Well we share this by Deed dated the 21st April, 1970 has aereed concern. We further share the concern to sell and the Commissioners of the Village of the whole system of estimating and District of Laxey (hereinater called " the Commissioners '') have agreed to purchase budgeting. You want to remember that for a nominal consideration the plot of land we put these estimates forward last situate abutting Glen Road in the Village October and here we are now, we had District of Laxey and Parish of Lonan being to wait until March before we knew the site of a former dwelling house known as whether Tynwald was approving them. "Eden Vale AND WHEREAS the Commissioners have We then had to wait until May to know applied to the Board under subsection (1) of whether they would be in the budget. Section 4 of the Local Government Act. 1950, We are in June. We have not wasted as amended by section 20 of the Local Gov- any time, and again I express the point ernment Act, 1963, for the approval of the Board to such purchase and the Board being that time is of the essence of this exer- satisfied that the application by the Commis- cise. We want this school in Ramsey sioners is one which should not be considered open in September 1971, I ask the sup- by the Board desires to refer the application port of the Court for this resolution. to Tynwald. RESOLVED:--That Tynwald hereb.7 ap- Mr, H. H. Radcliffe: What about the proves the purchase of the said land by the distance complaints ? Commissioners.
Mr. Kneale: The distance. com- In 1.961 Laxey Commissioners wished to plaints. 1 personally have heard no corn- purchase a piece of ground for a plaints from the parents in the area, recreation ground. The owner of the and I would stress that the distance that ground would not sell it unless the any child would have to walk to this Commissioners or the Local Govern- school is no greater, in fact is a lot less, ment Board purchased the house as than many children throughout the well. Both properties were purchased. Island are walking now, or being con- The land was sold to the Commis- veyed. sioners. the house was purchased by the
Laxey Village Commissioners—Purchase of Land in Glen Road, Laxey- Approved. 1814 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 10. 197.0
Local Government Board. It was found the purchase of ground for the erection to be in a very unsatisfactory condition of houses, so I beg to move the and demolished. The position is now resolution. that the Commissioners wish to own this piece of ground legally. It has been Mr. Bell: I rise in support of this in their use for a considerable amount resolution. When the houses are of time, sir—it is a very small portion ultimately built perhaps the public of the ground and accountants wish to transport will have stopped for this site get the matter rectified and we agreed Mr. MacDonald. Could I ask the to sell them this site for the handsome chairman how many people are on the .sum of 5s. I beg to move. housing list for this area ?
The Governor: It that agreed ? Mr. McFee: Your Excellency, the chairman said it was according to It was agreed. Board policy because this was close to public services and so on. Well, can he explain then the reason in a recent report that I have read that 70 septic PURCHASE OF LAND FOR tanks a year are being built for houses HOUSING —SULBY, LEZAYRE in the Isle of Man ? —APPROVED Mr. P. Radcliffe: Yes, Your Excellency, The Governor: Item number 20. The I can answer that question. If the policy chairman of the Local Government of the Manx Government is to en- Board. courage new residents to the Isle of Man, a considerable number of these Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I new residents do not want to live on beg to move:— an estate and they are quite prepared That Tynwald approves the purchase from to come to the Isle of Man and spend Thomas Foyle. James Fayle and Percy Albert Foyle, of an area of and situate in Sulby considerable amounts of money in in the Parish of Lezayre. measuring approxi- purchasing land and building mately 2•681i. acres or thereabouts. for the sum houses-- of R-1,600, such sum to include the legal costs to be incurred by the vendors, for the pur- Mr. McFee: Is it the policy—you have pose of the erection of houses. (Reference: Item GG of the Second Schedule just said ? to the Resolution of Tynwald of the 19th May, 1970 and Item 11, page 112, of the Estimates Mr. P. Radcliffe: —and building of Government Departments and Boards of houses costing anything from £25,000 to Tynwald. 1970/71 as amended by Government R,30...000. and transmitting through the Circular 97/70). builders in the Lisle of Man a great deal This purchase of land is in keeping with of work. The amount of septic tanks the Board's policy of developing an you speak about are a very, very small area supplied with all the necessary proportion of the amount of properties public services. Houses erected here can built in the Isle of Man and I would be sewered onto the Local Government just like to briefly comment now, at this Board main sewer and electricity and stage. on a statement made this morn- mains water are already on the site. ing on the building situation in the Isle The village school has room available of Man. It would be very interesting for more scholars. Social amenities such when this hon. Court supports this as the churches, youth club and with a resolution this afternoon to see how very excellent village hall, riding club many local builders will quote for the and other public activities are available erection of these houses 'because they in the area. Public transport passes the are so busy that every time we ask for site. This is in my Board's estimates for tenders we get very few indeed. Among
Purchase of Land for Housing—Sulby, Lezayre—Approved. TYNWALD COURT. JUNE i6, 1970 1815 the last tenders—estates going out to time that some restriction was put on tender on, we got the handsome sum of the 'building of luxury houses so that. two applications— the people who need houses according to your own standards are provided Mr. MacDonald: Could I have my with homes before we provide £15,000 question answered, Your Excellency ? or £20,000 bungalows for new residents. Mr. P. Radcliffe: As far as the parish The time has come, Your Excellency, of Lezayre is concerned I do not think when a restriction should be put on the we could say at this present moment engagement of the building industry in there is more than about 30 but we this direction and that we build the new cannot actually take any specific area houses for the people who need them. I and say the people because they have hope that the Court will immediately got to be on that definite housing list deal with this housing question and stop have to be housed in that area. There this gallivanting with building £15,000 are houses all over the Isle of Man. to £20,000 bungalows for new residents There are people living in Castletown, until such time as our own people are working in Castletown and we have housed. people working Castletown living in Andreas and the Isle of Man is only Mr. Devereau: Your Excellency, just a very small community or a very small a small thing. I want to say on this. I Island of 30 miles by 12 miles and get- will support the Local Government ting to work today it does not matter Board in this resolution and indeed in exactly where you live. They want to the principle of buying land for build- make an area where it is possible and ing estates and houses. This is the suitable for development. proper thing to do. This is putting the horse in front of the cart and as far as Mr. MacDonald: Could I just ask the hon. member for North Douglas is another question, Your Excellency. It concerned. I think the Local Govern- appears to me that there is a bit of ment Board and the people in the Isle packing of constitutencies going on of Man have every right to be proud of here. the housing record. If we study this list Mr. Callister: Your Excellency, I of our house-building last year it was immediately rose to ask a question but 510 houses which is equal to 500.000 in I was given no opportunity to join in Britain. The present Government in the debate. May I just say something. Britain apparently did not get more Of course 1 feel very strongly about than two-thirds of that total built. houses— Mr. Corkish: The local authorities Mr. MacLeod: Here we go. were 'Conservative ! (Laughter.) .Mr. Callister: Yes, and I will continue. When I hear that the chair- Mr. Devereau: This is a fact that man of the Local- Government Board housing in the Isle of Man, whether it says that he is proud of our housing be the private sector or the public in the Is]e of Man I simply see red. He sector—the houses are going up at a can tell me that there are 400 people fair rate in line with our economy and on the housing list and I will tell him I would support this resolution and the there are .2,000-- Local Government Board in the work they are doing. Mr. H. H. Radcliffe: For free houses. yes. The Governor: I shall now put the Mr. Canister: --and there are question. Those in favour please say thousands of people in this Island living aye, those against say no. Carried un- in inhabitable houses and is it not animously.
Purchase of Land for Housing—Sulby, Lezayre—Approved. 1816 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
POLICE CADETS PAY AND laid 'today, sir, is the subject of the fur- ALLOWANCES DETEIRMINATION, ther document by the Police Board. The 1970 determination raises the pay and allow- POLICE PAY AND ALLOWANCES ances of the Federated members of the DETERMINATION, 1970— Police force so that they are paid the APPROVED same amount here in the Isle of Man as in Great Britain. It may be felt that The Governor: Item 21. the chairman a great deal of money is 'being spent on of the Police Board. the police force here in the Island but Mr. Simcorks: Your Excellency, I beg I think that if hon. members will recall to move:— the very ugly events which occurred on Douglas promenade last week, I think That the fa:lowing Determinations made by we can be very glad that the system the Isle of Man Police Board, in pursuance under which we pay our own police of Section 10(11(0 of the Police (Isle of Mani Act. 1962 after consultation with the Gover- here, the same pay and allowances as nor, the Finance Board and the Isle of Man in Great Britain has enabled us to be Police Federation be and the same are hereby able to depend upon a band of men who approved:— are prepared to protect the public in mai T.:le of Man Police Cadets Pay and conditions which are very ugly and Allowances Determination. 1970 dated 29th April, 1970: and thank heaven, very unusual. I move the (b) late of Man Police Pay and Allow- resolution standing in my name. ances Determination, 1970 dated 22nd May. 1970. Mr. Crellin: 1 beg to second and reserve my remarks. The drill which is required for fixing the pay of the Federated ranks in the The Governor: Is that agreed ? police force, sir, provide that, after consultation, between the Finance It was agreed. Board, yourself, the Police Federation and the Police Board, a regulation is made by you, sir, in which the pay of the officers is portrayed in one of the schedules. Then because of the NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE provisions of section 10 (1) (c) of the CONTRIBUTIONS ORDER. 1070— Police Board Act it is necessary for APPR OVED the Board to determine what the pay and allowances will 'be and in order to The Governor: Item 22. The chair- do that, sir, the Police Board is deter- man of the Board of Social Services. mined that the rates laid down in your 'Mr. 'Nivison: Your Excellency, I 'beg regulation shall be the pay and allow- to move:— ances for the Force. Now the regulations That the National Health Service Contri- nutions Order, 1970, made on the 2nd June. with regard to Cadets pay and allow- /970 by His Excellency the Lieutenant ances were laid before Tynwald last Governor under the provisions of Section month and accordingly the determina- 31.11 of the National Health Service Contribu- tion which is on section " A " of this tions (Isle of Man} rAet, 1958, he and the same resolution is a determination to put is hereby approved. into effect your regulation. The effect The effect of this order is to increase of the regulation is to raise the pay the amount which the employer will and allowances of Police Cadets to the pay in respect of the health portion of same level as those paid in Britain and the contribution by ls. It goes from 8d. is in accordance with the established to ls. 8d. The effect of this Order will principle which Tynwald has always be that that will come into effect as followed with regard to the Police from the 6th July next and the money Force. The other regulation which was implications mean that it will increase
Police Cadets Pay and Allowances Determination. ,1970; Police Pay and Allow- ances Determination. 1975—Approved.—National Health Service Contribu- tions Order, 1970—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1817 the amount paid to the Health Services Mr. Callister: 1 rise, as usual, to Board by some .03,000 or £45,000 in a defend the immutable right of human full year. So the Order, in effect, sir, beings to use the high road and to deny empowers you to amend the Health Ser- the right even of this Parliament to vices Order subject to the approval of close the roads. Tynwald to bring it into line with that The Governor: Agreed? appertaining in the United Kingdom. The effect is to increase the employers' It was agreed. contribution by Is. from 8d. to is. 8d., and I move the Order. Mr. Bell: I beg to second. APPOINTMENT OF DIRECTORS OF The Governor: It that agreed? ISLE OF MAN BROADCASTING It was agreed. COMPANY LMITED—APPROVED- PERMISSION GRANTED TO ISLE LAXEY WHEEL (RE-OPENING OF MAN BROADCASTING COM- CELEBRATIONS) ORDER 1970; MISSION TO OPERATE A BROAD- VIKING FESTIVAL ORDER 1970 CASTING SERVICE —APPROVED The Governor: Item 23. The chairman The Governor: Item 24. The chairman of the Highway Board. of the Broadcasting Commission. Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency. I beg Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency, I beg to to move:— move:— HIGHWAY ACT, 1927. AND HIGHWAY WHEREAS the directors of Isle of Man (RACES AND ENTERTAINMENTS) ACT, Broadcasting Company Limited have re- 1962 signed their directorships with effect from That the Orders entitled the Laxey Wheel 30th June. 1970. (Re-opening Celebrations) Order. 1970 and FtiFOLVED:— the Viking Festival Order. 1970, made by the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board (1) That Tynwald approves the appoint- under the provisions of the above-mentioned ment of Messrs. G. T. Crellin and G. V Acts, be and the same are hereby approved. H. Kneale as directors of the Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited This resolution, sir, covers two orders with effect from 1st July, 1970; made by the Highway and Transport (2) That in accordance with Section 6 of Board. One Order provides for the the Broadcasting CommissioN, (Isle of closure of certain portions of roads in Man) Act, 1965 the Isle of Man Broad- the immediate vicinity of the Laxey casting Commission be authorised to Wheel in connection with the function operate a broadcasting service. being organised by the Isle of Man Your Excellency, in January, 1968, Tourist Board for the re-opening of came before this hon. Court with the the Laxey Wheel. It also permits resolution for the purchase of Manx the Tourist Board to make cer- Radio and at that time I said that it tain charges to the public for access to would be the aim of the Broadcasting the certain portions of these roads. The Commission to come before you with other Order, sir, is the motion in con- concrete proposals for your approval nection with the Viking Festival and and appraisal and your views. I think. this provides for the closure of certain Your Excellency, will remember that I roads in the vicinity of where the mentioned three or four alternatives Festival is being held and also permit charges to be made in certain cases. which would naturally commend them- selves in varying degrees to members Your Excellency, I beg to move. of this hon. Court. First, and this is Sir Henry Sugden: I second and re- the meat of the resolution which I bring serve my remarks. before you today, that until such time
Laxey Wheel (Re-Opening Celebrations) Order, 1970; Viking Festival Order, 1974:I—Approved. — Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Com- pany Limited—Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1818 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
as we can make Manx Radio a very Radio having resigned, the correct attractive commercial proposition the method to adopt is for the Broadcasting Broadcasting Commission should oper- Commission to take the status formerly ate Manx Radio in the manner that a occupied by the directors and to assume commercial board of Tynwald would do. a position which leaves all the options Secondly, that we might, with your open. For these three alternatives which approval, establigh a Government con- I have mentioned as a permanent solu- trolled comercial broadcasting corpora- tion — that is to say, if a corporation tion, similar in the way in which the were set up, it should have to have a B.B.C. organisation works, but with the charter for a number of years, which difference that it would not be a drain of any magnitude upon the Manx tax- means that the road to progamme con- payer, because of its commercial nature. tracting would be closed. If the station As you are aware, Your Excellency, this or wavelengths were allocated at this idea was also propounded by the Work- moment to a programme contractor such ing Party and came within a short dis- a contractor would have nothing to do tance. if Your Excellency will parden the with the short-term ad hoc arrangement pun, of being accepted by the Horne and therefore a contract based on a Office. I therefore prepared for you on rental and a term of years would have the 30th January, 1969, a proposal based to be agreed, also destroying a flexibility on those of the Working Party. How- which I believe in order to achieve our ever, sir, it was agreed at that time not aspirations we need: I should like to say to recommend such proposals to Tyn- at this stage just a word of thanks to wald in view of the further negotiations the directors of Manx Radio, who have which were thought to be pending with held the fort with a great deal of ex- the Minister of Posts and Telecommuni- pertise, industry, patience and fore- cations. It was decided then, in spite of bearance. They. that is to say, Mr. J. the fact, that the Board of Directors of W. W. Hyde, who was secretary and Manx Radio had frequently expressed legal adviser to the company in the days dissatisfaction with the present situation of Mr. Mayer and Mr. Grierson, who as far back as October, 1968, to ask was subsequently chairman of the board them to continue in office for an un- of directors on the take-over by Govern- specified period longer than the few ment, who is a very busy practising ad- months' that they were originally asked vocate. Mr. J. D. Bolton. who joined the to remain in office, consequent upon the company on the 21st April, 1967, and Government purchase of all the shares Mr. J. F. Nelson who joined at the same in the company. The Broadcasting Com- time. Both extremely busy men who mission, very conscious of their statu- have given a great deal of their time, tory obligations and my promise to have sacrifieci a great deal, in my Tynwr Id to bring proposals forward, opinion, also of chargeable time to have for obvious reasons. particularly Government and they have frequently at this difficult political stage, not made pointed out — and this is very true that a recommendation for disposing cf they have worked extremely hard as Manx Radio on rental to a programme directors and for the remuneration contractor. Obviously, with great popu- available under the agreement, the job larity and very low power it would be was a consistent sacrifice of valuable most unwise, at this particular time. to time and pre-occupation which could consider disposing of such a potentially have been more economically applied in valuable organisation for a buyer's mar- their own pre-occupations. It was made ket price. However, hon. members will abundantly clear to the Broadcasting appreciate that the directors of Manx Commission that the existing situation
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYN'WALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1819
being perpetuated on the grounds of power was always minimised by the fact political expediency could not continue that our radio undertaking was still in indefinitely and it came as no surprise the hands of a concessionaire company. It is because this concessionaire com- to me when they resigned. However, I pany still exists that the first part of am sure that they have done a very the resolution comes before you. Clearly, marked service to the Isle of Man and and I would like to make this point I have very great pleasure in recording quite definitely, controversial though it my own gratitude and appreciation of may be, clearly the shareholders are the \it their services. The fact is that when the people of this Island, in whose name anx Government bought the shares of the Government Secretary and Govern- .i.,he company, many people thought that ment Treasurer hold the shares, are now without directors and, theoretically this meant that Government would, in fact, control Manx Radio. Certainly. can nominate directors to the Broad- when I moved my resolution on 17th casting Commission for our approval. January 1968, several members of this However, in order to ensure that this Court were under that impression and ad hoc and very tenuous control of it was on this distinct proviso that some broadcasting does not continue any of them voted for it. I have underlined longer on this unsatisfactory basis it is the remarks which were made at that proposed that in the first instance the time. It was the intention that the now hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. retired directors would continue in Kneale and I should be accepted as office, in a caretaker capacity, of less directors of the company. than a year while the Stonham Working Mr. Bell: 'Self praise, sir. Party was negotiating and until the Broadcasting Commission could bring Mr. Crellin: Pardon. I would ask the forward concrete proposals. Your Excel- hon. member not rto intermix foolishr:y. lency will have noted how negotiation Per this 'pu:pose, in tact, we do not on the question of Manx Radio ran to a really need the approval of Tynwald. halt, in spite of the fact that the Work- The Brciadeasifng Commission have for- ing Party did their utmost to achieve a mally approved our appoiWirnents. I settlement. Your Excellency will also be with ,here and now to state quite clearly, aware that in spite of every exploratory so tbarl: perhaos the press will have .Jheir move which has been made by you, sir. falcits .a little clearer before they plunge the Working Party, the Broadcasting Irmo ,foolish and .mischievous print, as Commission, no progress whatsoever has one newspaper did last week. been made on settling our legitimate grievances with the United Kingdom on Members: Every week. the question of broadcasting. Finally, Your Excellency will be aware that I (Mr. Crearn: That probably the last have consistently urged that strong thing in the world that want to be, action of a definite nature should be I am inure I sneak ,for Mr. Kneale in this taken, not only in the political field with =after -also, is a &rector of Manx Radio. regard to our relations with the United There erre, however, three matters in Kingdom on this subject, but, also put- partictfar whicili necessitate our assum- ting our own house in order to the ex- ing these posits as an linterim measure tent of ensuring that the Manx Govern- and I wish ,to emphasise this &act, which, ment were placed in the strongest pos- of course, will be unpaid. Hon. members sible bargaining position in relation with of this Count will be wellii aware of the Manx Radio. I have always held the ifact that we cannot hold offices of profit view that our case for sympathetic con- under -he Crown, whith will be unpaid, sideration of our claim for increased Ike .alil 'the other unhappy pre-oecupa-
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting 'Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1820 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
tions with which we dispeTse our butter- advice. Now the second pant of the reso-i fly existence. The first is the licence lotion says, in effect, this— which is in the name of the Concession sire. The second :s the tangle of agree- The Speaker: Is that the Attorney ? ments with regard to :copyright, and the Is the Attorney the legal adviser ? third is the winding-up of the affairs of the company. Certainly these ihree wits Mr. 'C'rellicri: Perhaps -this will be involve some small continuity of the answered in the course of 'the debate. facade of the company owned by Gov- The second pant of :resolution merely ernment and a considerable ,aim.ount of says, in effect, Tynwald has already :study. Now during our time as directors we shall have the benefit of being super- Isubscribed to the idea of .a Board of vised by the three non-Tynwald mem- Tynwa'id being responsible for several bers of the 'Commission and the benefit of our !services—the Water Board, the also of being supervised by the whole Electricity Board, the Manx Electric of Tynwald. Hallway Board, Airports Board, the Gas Committee of Tynwald., and so on. Mr. MacDonald: Ycu sound as if you It is a fact that once Government bought are unhappy about that. the financial assets and the losses of Manx Radio the idea of two conitrolling Mr, Cre 'am not unhappy about bodies was suspect. Certainly, when only this because this is a very important one station was involved, in my view, point—so very :fie° uentily When we think this was inevitable. In Canada the same of Government control we :think of problem has been faced and accepted. Government dictating policy — buj we Alphonse Ouimet, who was the president forget the fact that here in this of the Canadian Broadcasting Corpora- :ancient end hon. Court we have zit least tion. writing on broadcasting in Canada 30 individuals, independent members. in May, 1964, said the following: "'I am and :believe me, Your Excellency, the firmly of the opinion that any two hoard amount oT supervision I have had in de- system under which one board would fault on this question over the pas- three be required to report to a second board is neither desirable nor practicable ". years has assured me Thr the Moment that we were in any way to step out of In Canada, as hon. ,members are :aware, line we would be jumped upon by the there is a wide and varied cornolex mix- remaining 30 with ,great 'vigour, energy ru-re of nublioly-owned and 'privately- and enthuisiaism. 'In fact-- owned broacl'easClig organisations and ilf the observation I have just quoted is Mr. Nivison: Will not you tell us 'Jo true do such ease it is probably trebly mind our own business ? true in our case. I realise, very fully, contain hon. members have misled us Mr. Orellin: I would like to make it about Publicly controlled and operated —you :could not do it —in fact, Your sources of information and entertain- Excellency, shouffd like to make this ment Probably in all because ::they have pioint, because it is not commonly thought of 'countries like Prance 'Where :known and II think it should be known, we have seen the tight-fisted hand of that the first part. of the resolu'ilon,. Government control being employed in even .though in my vew lit is completely a manner 'Which could 'be, certain unnecessary so far as Tynwald is con- extent, detrimental to the general con- cerned, since the .authority is :already cept on ,free :steed', but should like there, contained in the agreements, and rgain to re-emphasise 'llhat the Isle of within cur statutory obit:a:ions, it did Man does not suffer the same difficulties !no. 'come from us, it 'came on legal of party :administrations and has its 30
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited:— Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1821
independent members. I should dike to derogatory, have for a long time been emphasise the controls which the Broad- under the impression that what we are casting Commission would require to asking for today is already the case. I exercise on a broadcasting station with am well aware of the dac4 tihalt Your regard to programme eanten4s with a Excellency is not par sial to tedious prOperly organised two-tier structure repetition and so I ,shall not reiterate what 1 have said at question time in are exactly the same !as those which we answer to my hon. 'friend the hen. mem- should require with a Commission ber for East Douglas, Mr. Irving, but opera.ing organdsatIon. I should dike to I do feel that !tie operation of Manx eoint out ito hon. members that probably Radio by the Government 'in the shape the most democratic n;a-don in Europe, of the Broadcasting Commission wit!! Switzerland, has am all-Government Shift the emphasis not only to our con- controlled !station. Australia, New siderable advantage, but into the legal, Zealand, Holland. There are many rather than the political field, where un- countries with a much tighter control of "riOubtedaY 'the going has become as their broadcasting medium than we trustralting as ever. I believe that this have here in the isle of ;Man and than resolution I now have pleasure in the United Kingdom has through the moving is reasonably sound, inevitable anedium of the B.B.C. Bon. members no and to our !advantage and otherwise I doubt will have observed recently that should not dream of asking this hon. Manx Radio news bulletins have be- Court to !accept it. come sponsored !by mat Lous firms. II think many members may feel and realise Mr. MacLeod: Your Excellency, it that tine sponsoring of public service seems to me the mos:, extraordinary items 'could, under certain circum- state of attars when the ihon. mover stances, be suit:dee', to .a cer-Lain amount comes forward to this Court and says he of misgivings, in fact possibly far more does not reauire to come here — the than the mere fact that the Broacast- authority has already been given. Why ing Commission under the supervision does he come here and waste our time of Tynwald for the general! policy of the then as long as he can put his name station. This station is 'a commercial down !along with Mr. Kneale and become ,stallon 'and so 'long tt so remains I directors of .Manx Radio ? Why do they cannot see any danger in it being waste our time ? Why did he 1.viaste all operated from the directional point of Ile time of the Court ? If you have all View by the organisation which (is at this thing, you do not need to do it, you „present the 'second panty to the con- iharve 19R:id that in your own style. Now. cession 'agreement. Much as I have al- during the course of his remarks he ways Savoured the !idea of a corporation said that the late directors spent a great controlled by the Commission land, in- deal of their valuable time. a great deal deed, as I 'have said, tried 'Llo get it off of 'Iheia vaituable time in doing this. ;he ground, I have adways felt like Du: ing the paSt week we have had Bills Ainhonse Oulanet in the case of the before the Court here asking us to vote Cianadran 'Broadcasting Corporiation, to say Chau can no longer be (mem- !that there was one body too many. bers of the Dougtas Corporation because 'Moreover, the hon. members of this the members of Tynwald are bogged Court and the great Ernajosity of the down iwItlh too rnuldh work to do, The 'people of the dsland, as :reflec:ed by the very people wiho, bring those Bills come !hest of eornmenns that have been made along retesting and want to be direc- to me from time to time, 'about !Manx tors of the Manx Radio — the thing Radio, some complimentary end some does not coincide. It is ridiculous.
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1222 TY.NWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 19710
The two who are proposed here as needed it in the Isle of Man, but because members, as directors of this vote and we thought it would help to meet the re- two of the members of the busiest quiregrneints of the Possnaster-General and might help us to get a greater power Beards of Tynwald, people who are for ou.r stallion. Now that was the only talwat,ys c.oanplaning they have far too reason why that was done. Apart from much to do and they want to extend the question of negotiating with the their Board to seven members instead of PostnasteriGeneral there would never five because they cannot possibly ge have been any suggestion 'wha'tever that through the work and here we are, we there should be a public corporation to come .along and find a resolution 'before run ills station, except in the mind of us today to have them as directors of the hon. member who did undoubtedly Manx Radio. I have seen a lot o f things copy a lot of it t6rom the 'document that in my time and t have 'belonged to a few he ga_. from the Working Party, coaporations, companies ,and everything Mr. Crellin: What if it had been else, but I think it is the first time I have accepted ? ever seen the members proposing them- selves to be directors. Phe only time I Mr. Bolton: It was not iaceepted. !think this happened was When one of the members, whose name is on Mr. n: No. Supposing it had here when 'he proposed :hat he should been? be 'made chairman of the Board of Edu- Mr. Bolton: 'Now never mind sup- cation when he first inane into this posing, I am telling the truth, not what Court. Now, Your Excellency, I will might happen nor what perhaps did vote against this and I hope that all happen. I am trying to ge.I down to facts. members of the Court will vote against Now the suggestion is the the Isle of it also. Man Broadcasting Company Limited is a coneess'onaire. Now concessionaires Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency., I have went out a long, long. time ago. The been rather amazed as to the way in minute that the Isle .of Man Government whitch .a proposal can be put forward purchased the whole of the share capital so as to mystify and I do honestly sug- or the Isle of Man Broadcasting Com- gest mislead the Court and the public pany, they became directly under the Now we have heard this laLernoon coritol of Government through a 'board about programme contractors. Now of directors, who could either he re- there has been no talk of programme moved. iapoointed or altered at the will contra:Plots for .a very long time so we of Government. The only naeople who can wash that one out hut that was could intertfere and did interfere when dragged across the trail. The next thing crte nom nee was out forward, was the is itha,J the implication of the speech Broadcasting Commission themselves. was that 'the directors of Manx Radio but -here is celtainly no question of this had resigned 'because they were such resolut.en hr ving anything to do busy men, This again is far removed taking !'t .away from concessionaires and from 'the 'truth. Then the suggestion is putting It in the hands of Government. made that this idea of a corporation It 'is quite firmly in the hands of Gov- whildh was prepared on behalf of the ernment at the moment. The next thing Tynwaid members of the Working is :hat we are .`cold 'that the Broadcasting Party was something thiao. should be Cominiss.ion has no need to come to followed up. Now we all know why that Tynwald bec use the Broadcasting Com- was done. We all know why that pro- mission has a.porov-ed these appoint- posal was put forward. Not because we ments. Now I ask you, bow farcical can
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1823 we really get in our thinking ? Granted cil, Mr. Bolton, this a most intriguing they must approve any appointment of s,,,tuation. For, sir, we have here a situa- a director but al, no point— tion where two gentlemen, who declared Mr, Irving: Surely they ,have the right. note very long ,ago 'in my ease, politicians Bol'-on: They have no right what- should not control radios but suddenly ever 'to appoint ,a director. the argument has changed. The thing that springs to my mind so seriously is Mr. Irving: They are elected, are not Ilia., these 'two nominees today of them- they ? selves would still be members of the Mr. Bolton: The legal position is this, Broadcasting Commission. an that capa- that the directors are appointed by the cii 6' they Iha,ve certain other jobs to do shareholders. The shareholders are ,apart from leaning on Manx Radio. representa.ives of the Government and Those other jobs are to keep a fatherly the B_oacinas.tng Commission are not eye on the B.B.C. and all their eetitnitres, hareholdens and cannot appoint dlirec-. the J.T.V. and all...their activities, report tors, so no matter ,how many they to this Court when they find anything approve, they cannot appoint them, and going wrong with these functions and it is no good saying "we do not have to, take action when necessary, which in- come 'to Tynwald" 'because we can deed they have recently done. Now, sir, ,approve. They cannot approve end then 'what standing will they stand in an we have got the specjacle oif two gentle-, ,argument with the B.B.C. as cldreOrirs men---membetrs of Tynwald—represent- of a commercial radio station? Commer- in,g Tynwald on, the Broadcasting Com- cially in rad..o.. Acting unquestionably mission, and the chainman corning for- as defence prosecution, judge and jury ward with the extraordinary stateanent rail :in their own trigh,!. If ever there was !hat .they are going to be under the to case and I take it, thi`s quite apart Watchful eye of ,the three people who from Manx Radio, take 'their other are noi members of Tynwald. I mean, responsibilities, if ever -here was a ease really. I believe this, that the ,hon. 'when Justice by a Government must be member may well have had 'a cage to seen to be done this surely i's it, Now, put today but 'he has not Put it and that Your Excellency, I do not ,wanIt to rock is ,all .I wish to say Your Excellency, this boat, I have been in and 1 am quite serious in this, I was one of those Mr, Spitball: Your Excellency, I do who wrote 'the original agreement to not .wisql to say 'a great deal about 'this, have a radio station, long, long before ibut I do feel that on the whole of this these gentlemen were in the field. I question of any means of the media of have been quite close to this problem public information that, not necessarily over the years. I .aan the only person politics, but politicians should ,be kept who, if only in a quasi 'capacity, has out of 1J. I believe that if, and this is no acrually sat on the board of Manx reflection on the hon. member for Radio and saw and admired the way the RaiShen or the 'hon. member for Wegl, (three gentlemen carried otr.' their duties, Douglas, 'IT there is advantage 'having and I th,Ink this Court owes them .a real the Broadoas Mg Commission es direc- debt of 'gratitude. The slgnifican:ce that tors, as it were, of 'Manx Radio, then at worries me its Why they suddenly want least they should not be members of to step out of the piece and 'I would like Tynwald. ,answer to Ibis, Now, sir, the thing I really warrli to say is this, that looking Mr. Quayle: Your Excellency, I find in at all the duties involved, looking at. all common with the hon. member for Coun- the responsibilities involved, if the
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited,— Approved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1824 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 197.0
Broadcasting Commission wishes to course, the anxiety they have had. Now have direct representation and in we have heard questions asked—why agreement with my bon. colleague have they resigned? No clear statement has been made why they have resigned. Colonel Spittall, i,t should not .noces- I would guess, sir, that they have sandy be political but (if they do wan', 'resigned because of a lack of co-opera- to have 'representation and 'there is some tion in the Broadcasting Commission. merit in what was said this morning— if this is going 'to steno-than the radio, Mr. Kneale: Rubbish ! This is 'the only 'condition I would do Mr. Irving: Particularly over the ques- anything on this resolution. If that is so, tion of directorshps of Manx Radio. why is it the political factor and not the non-poilitioal factor that comes into the Mr. Crellin: Et to Brute. picture? There are an awful lot of ques- tions, Your Excellency, to be answered Oar. Irving: The hon. member here has in this debate and quite honestly I am already referred to that, but even so, the quite sure the gentlemen concerned are .tiact is that they have now resigned and doing their absolute most for this Island we have to find some more directors. I and its radio station. There are so think it is quite undesirable, in prim- many loose ends at this moment, I Would .oiple„ that as any bon_ colleague from like to know precisely if 'they get in.o :Middle says, that the Broadcasting this seat .and. I am not very keen on tit Commission who are looking at broad- at the moment, but if they do, 1 want casting on the Island generally, should to know precisely whElt they propose to be running a radio station. I think too do 'out in the open, because if a Govern- that Ahese two hon. members who are mend can do things there is only one very capable in so many ways will way a Government can do things and hardly become the Wihizz Kids of the that is out in the open. commercial radio world, but having Said 'that I bell'eve that they had the Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, there is desire and the courage to do Something so much I believe. sir. that one could ,about increasing the rower of Mrarox say against this motion today. First of Radio Furthermore I believe that -they all, as the hon. member of the Council are the only two people who can do it has said, even the wording of the motion and get away with it. In spite of the which sugges..'s that the 'members of the objection in nrincipr.le here today, I am Broadca.sting Go.mmission can appo'airt going to support 'this mot"on. I am going themselves directors, Now we know to support ':these two hon. members that the Broadcasting Commission must 'being directors of this radio station for approve 'directors 'but they certainly a Period—tor an interim malted, how- cannot 'appoint themselves directors. I ever long that may be, because I be- would like to join the bon. mem- l'eve we must keen our eyes on the main ber in charge of the motion and my hon. chance iind the main chance ito us in this, friend from Middle, .Mr. Quayle, in Count is to get more power for Manx congratulating the three gentlemen who Radio. If it means sacrificing some have been directors of this station for of -:lhese principles about the Constitu- guile a :long period_ I itilr!nk they 'have tion of the Broadcasting Commission, done o .wonderful job there, which. has then fats far as I on concerned that is too 'taken 'a great deal of their valuable bad. I ash prepared to Target (these ideas time. They have received .a very small 'for 'a slhorrt time. Now I do not believe director's fee which no one could That the hon. member made exactly imagine for. one moment repaid 'them clear this afternoon what.' '111's. intentions for 'the hours of 'work they did and, of were in this direction.
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting 'Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1825
A Member: He has not mentioned it. have thought that they ought to think 'in terms of hiring it-. Now having iMr. Irving, No, I do not think he has. started off my remarks not too favour- I do not think he has, -but even if hon. ably to the hon. member in charge of members do not see the situa.:qon in the motion I hope he will !appreciate detail clearly, I do not think we realise that our one chance at the moment, it that I am supporting him wholeheartedly seems to me, of getting more power for today. I am pinning -a great deal of faith Manx Radio, is to put these two hon. on 'these two hon. members and I ask members on -he board of Manx Radio, other members of this Court to do so on the assumption they will increase the too. - power. Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I am never surprised by the rapid about- 'Mr. MoFee: On the .assurription or turn that the hon. member for East promise. Douglas, Mr. Irving. is able to do so Mr. Irving: As far as I am concerned, often and without any embarrassment. six, it is la promise and I would ask hon. I would have thought that a man who members this afternoon., even though had propounded mermaids would ex- they think well 'this does not look right pect as much cr:dence to be given to to me, It .:s not the nroper way I woull his speech to-day as was riven in those put it and .sorne—lif hon. members want early days of the Action Group etc., more power for Manx Radio now is the etc.-11 think it is a most alarming state, time to put two members of this Court Your Excellency, when we, as Tynwald on ;Who will take the power, if neces- assembled, are prepared to swallow as sary. in the name of the Manx Govern- much guff and half-truths as we have ment. Now we have heard them Say been even by a chairman of a respon- about buying the aranIsrn'tter. I would sible Commission that we are told that have though.d it might be better to either notwithstanding the fact that these re- hire or borrow a transmitter at the commendations for appointments are moment. ultra vires, that we should accept them. Forget the principles. (Interruption.) Mr. Bolton: Where tfrom ? We have been told that they are so. :We are now being urged to forget the Mr. Irving: Where from ? I under- principles, a wonderful speech the first stand that Mr. Ronan aRahilly was due part, the hon. member for East Douglas, here -tomorrow in the radio Ship C':aro- a wonderful speech, right up my alley, l-ne International, formerly known as and then he gets on his bike and goes Radio North Sea, or something ltke that. back the other way, but the first part of I unders'oOd th::t 'he was going to bring the speech is worth recording. There are Ithe vessel up the Irish Sea, stay for two issues here as I set' it, one is the some short period off the Isle of Man, issue of the directors and the other is one of the reasons 'being to be rear the the issue of more power. The hon. constituency of Huyton. Now there is member for East Douglas has said, I tno sign of the vessel in tiibSntt at the believe, we have two men here who moment, whether it will be here will get us that power. I can equally omorrow or not I do not know but I take you to Victoria Road, Your Excel- am sure Mr. ORalhilly, for example, lency, and introduce you to another could find a transmitter. I believe two men who w'll get you all the and I know the 'hon. member knows money you want if you put a pair of this, that it is possible to hire these guns in their hands. Now this is what th'ngs and before embarking on very we have beol asked to do. To endorse big expense for la transmitter I would the spirit of adventure—two members
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1826 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
of Tynwald, and forget that we are be condemned in the most positive supposed to be Parliamentarians. 'We manner by rejecting this resolution are supposed to achieve progress completely. through — the young man from Glen- faba there sucking his lollipops, but, Mr. MacDonald: Your Excellency, I Your Excellency, we are being asked would Like first of all to deal with what to achieve and expected by thtr the hon. member for East Douglas has to set an example. We are the law- said' about turning up the wick. Some makers, we are the law-makers, we are four years ago in this Court it was sug- the legislators and we are being asked gested by the present Wee-chairman of to elect two men whom we know the Broadcasting 'Commission. that the will then it up. We could have had two wick should be turned up and I will men—we are not going to put them in confirm today to the Court what I be- prison. lieved then, this is utterly drnpossilie. We will be absohuttly wasting our time Mr. Irving: But it might have upset to attempt to do it as the recent case of them in Whitehall, would it? Upset the Radio North Sea has proved it, it will British Labour Government. be jammed immediately. athe_power is increased by Manx Radio to-morrow MT, Bell: It is not a quest:on of up- would euaran tee setting the British Labour Govern- hour nothin on Manx Radio will be ment. My father used to say to me, heard. The Bri ish Government are Your Excellency. it is no use knocking quite definite about ibis. They have when there is no one in. and that is been definite about this all along. They why I have not made too many replies have done it with every commercial to the interjc-ctions from the member station that has attempted to open up for East Douglas. (Laughter.) Through- since Caroline disappeared. The States out the world there has been a marked of Europe 'likewise will do the same rising in intolerance for law and a turn- thing should we turn the power up. ing away from everything which we There is only one way Manx Radio have recognised as the security and power can be increased, and that is by stability of society as we know it, but the British. Government being forced what we are talking about or the vein to relax the present position, that they in which the hon. member for East Dou- have been given power .by us, Tynwald, glas has been speaking is the one that to contra this bower. This is the only the young beatniks and the young drug way the 'problem can be solved. It takers and the drug pushers applaud. could have been solved if I had not Ignore law. Ignore the 'institutions of been -knifed in the backfour years ago, society. The end justifies the means and one of those who knifed me itM-he- and I do not subscribe to that. Your back and vs a member of the Breade Excellency, and this resolution is casting_ Commission lo-day, proposing couched for that object. The speeches chat he should 'become a direct-Or. It' have been designed and delivered for could- ,have been done and it was not that object, but I am here representing done. adult people and the children of those Mr. Bell.: You were very close to it at people, and' I bel.:eve we should' set an that time. example of law and order and what we cannot achieve by negotiation we Mr. MacDonald: We were very close should set about to achieve by further to—two votes would have done it. You negotiations. This attitude is no good will only get this done, Your Excel- and should be condemned and should lency and hon. members, through the
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited-- Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE l6, 1970 1827 power of the United Nations and I am not quite certain, but I seem to the International Telecommunications have found the Heinz programme which Union. You will get it no other way at was one of the best we had, I believe all. 1 do not care what anyone says, going out. Now no small commercial this I know to be true. I have had radio station can run without advertis- enough experience in radio throughout ing and it means .a lot of advertising, the world to know this You can play and I do think that this is what is as much as you like. You can stand at behind the motion, Your Excellency. the street corner and say I will get it I think the chairman and the vice- for you—you wilt get nothing because chairman and the members of the the I.T.U. is a vIty .nowerful organisa- Commission, II served with four of tion. The big Dowers control it. They them four years ago, we were then fed- break the agreements of the I.T.U. up and I think they are probably fed- when it suits them, as the Br:tish up too, because the British Government Government do, as Russia does, as will not sit down and talk turkey to Franc:' does. The only people in Europe who do not break them are the the delegations we send away. Every Germans, Perhaps they were taught a time we are put off. Every time we lesson last time, but the rest do break send a delegation to discuss this they these agreements and am quite con- would say to us what I have said in vinced that nothing, nothing at all what the Court ,before, "You boys in the Isle the hon. member for East Douglas has of Man — you little ,pcople, you have said will get us anywhere, but, at the same time I fully appreciate the posi- only got the right to agree. You have tion of the chairman and the vicc- got no right to disavee." And until chairman of the Broadcasting Commis- Tynwald is prepared to face up to that sion. They are thoroughly frustrated situation you will get nowhere. The by nothing 'being .done. This Court first thing we have got to decide in this does not back them, We have sent com- Court with regard to Manx Radio, the m'ttees down to London—in a lot of cases committees of men who know very first thing we have got to decide, nothing of what they have been sent to is that we must insist on the right to talk about. They have gone to London, disagree as well as to agree. Without they have came back with nothing and that all the amount of talking under I am quite certain in my mind that the sun, all the amount of playing to Manx Radio, unless something is done, unless we can force the British Govern- the gallery. Press clap-trap will get not ment once again into a oosit'on where, one small single milliwatt of extra they are in the wrong, and this time go power for Manx Radio. I think, Your for them and no hesitation, unless this Excellency, that this move, I do not Court, Tynwald, is prepared to do this. know why, I likewise—as other mem- Manx Radio will die. Now I have care- bers — I would like to know exactly fully listened over the last two to three why the directors bay(' resigned. months. I have not seen fi'mures, the think this hon. Court is entitled to commercial figures' of this station, but know. I think these directors have I have a stroma suspicion that the ad- done a very goad job under very very vertising revenue is dropping. I have difficult circumstances. They are try.:ng noticed a falling off in th,.: number of lo run a station, a station with its adverts and number of long-term spots. hands tied 'behind its back. A station I have noticed only recently, I believe, whae not only power is limited but
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limitedi- Approved; Periniss'on Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1828 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16. 1971) the actual aerial system is controlled state is entitled to its own radio by the Postmaster-General. Even with station. I know there are certain agree- the power we have, the actual radiated ments over the limitation of parking power, given freedom of building a dif- ferent type of aerial system we could your own territorial areas, 'but the reach the mainland with no trouble, British Government allow the B.B.C. but the control is too tight by the Post- as I have said in this Count before. master-General that not only are we to broadcast over our national air- dictated to in terms of Dower, but space, if that be so. we have also de- exactly what type of antenna we should tided' to broadcast over their national build. He has complete control and he air space. has control because; this hon. Court gave him that control. Mr. Irving: You can broadcast all over the world, Mr, Irving: Well what are you going to do about it? Mr. MacDonald: Not all over the world, you cannot, but we are fully Mr, MacDonald: What am I going to entitled to broadcast over their de about it? I am ouite prepared to national airsoace as they are broad. once again come to Tynwald, but if a casting over ours, Now the very early. come to Tynwald with a resolution. this I.T.U., the! very beginnings of the I.T.U. time .11 hope I wilt not be knifed in the laid this dawn and I think it Tynvvald. back as I was last time. If this Court Court decides we have reached a stage wants power, the: Court itself has got where nothing more can be done, then to make its mind up. Now, Your Ex- there is only one answer and that is cellency, I am not worried particularly for this very committee, I do not mind about who sits as directors of this com- which committee goes, this very com- pany because as I say, unless these mittee that is negotiating and has been committees that we have got discussing negotiating for three years with the things with the British Government at British Government, to eio direct to the the moment, very quickly. in the words I.T.U. and the only place, not the Com- of the Duke of Edinburgh, remove monwealth Prime Ministers, 'because their finger, there will be no Manx that was a load of hogwash too. They Radio, The station cannot go on exist- have got no power. They can do noth- ing as things are. This Court gave to a ing. The only body in this world that certain group of gentlemen the right can help us, and I have sa'd this in this to go and negotiate. These negotiations Court so often, I know the vice-chair have got to be concluded. Stonham man of the Broadcasting Commission promised this. They have all promised does not agree with me, but the only this and. they have 0 Of. to come to some body in this world that will help us, as very definite conclusion over it. If we the late Arthur Henderson told me in find that we are being thwarted of our London, is the United Nations. It is the legitimate rights and that 'we have only body and the I.T.U. is the oldest legitimate rights. body of that United Nations, as it was the oldest 'body of the original League Mir. Bell: We are negotiating it. of Nations. These are the beanie to go Mr. MacDonald: No, if we find and to. These are the people to get the this Court decides that we are being answer from, otherwise you are wasting, thwarted of our ]e8it'imate rights and, your time. To-day, on this I cannot s I say. we have legitimate rights in agree. I must admit I cannot agree. No this respect because under the original matter how much I like my good convention of the every national friends, I cannot agree to two poll-
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, -1970 1829 ticians sitting as directors of a radio proper perspective and realised' where station. I cannot do it. I have sampled it came from, The Broadcasting Com- this and probably Your Excellency has mission did not suggest Part I of this himself. I have sampled this abroad resolution. The Broadcasting Comm's- of political control of radio and we all sion suggested Part 2 and that was the know from our own lifetime the effect original resolution. of political control of the German radio Mr. MacDonald: We have not been stations before the war. Some of the told, territories .1. have served :n we have have indirect control by politicians: in Mr. Kneale: We were told and you' others we had direct control, but I be- are being told now. If you would have lieve that broadcasting must be com- listened before you might have heard pletely free of political interference. but you arc getting told again now. We Had the two hon. members come to-day were told by Executive Council that it before the Court and said we was necessary for the directors to be appoint the headmaster to the High replaced. Now we did not suggest our- School, Dow ,'Ias High School, as a direc- selves as directors, it was the share- tor, we will appoint Miss Christian, 1 holders that suggested it, as they are would have been hapoy. Hers-were two entitled to do, private citizens — admittedly members of the Broadcasting 'Commission, but Members: Who are the shareholders? not politicians. I would have been quite happy and I think this Court Mr. Kneale: The Government probably would have been happy too. Treasurer and. the Government Sere- We could have pickid any Manxman.. Lary, with ,the concurrence of the Fin- We could have taken the editor of the ance Board and of the Executive Coun- "Courier" and the editor of the "Times" cil. That 4s why our names appear and said to them, or the "Examiner," on it. It is just as .intriguring, mislead- and said to them, would you two ing, embarrassing for us to-day to lie gentlemen go and act as directors of proposed by ourselves as it is for any- this company for the Government. I body else. would have accented that. I would have The Speaker: Why did not Executive accented anything, but not politicians. do it for you?. I think the Court should reject these particular appointments. It is dan- Mr, Kneale: Because the original gerous. I know the hon, member:for solution was in the name of the chair- Rushen and the hon. member for West man of the Broadcasting 'Commission. Douglas, they outwardly probably Part 1. was•typed on 'because we were have the 'best intentions in the told we had to do this, you had to clear world. They may not wish to 'be little the position, there was a vacuum, the Hitters—I do not think they do. I do directors had retired, you must appoint not think tlyv wish to be little Hitlers fresh directors. We accepted the advice. but in the public image I think it is We have also accepted the advice that_ very, very important that this Court TGdvernment-run station does_not_ to-day rejects the appointment of two :reel m the Post m a ster- politicians. It the chairman will come to operate, If this advice forward now and suggest two others right. now I say if this_advice . would accept them, 'but I am not then it is no food appoint'ng any Tom._ accepting this, Your Excellency. 1317.717M.rry—from outside _Govern- ment becauSE.P you are back to...the_situ a7 _ Mr. Kneele: Your Excellency, think tion we were before, of having outside it is time we got this resolution .in its people running it for you.
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited Approved; Permission Granted io Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1830 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1.6, 197.0
Members: No, you are not! work on the Commission at the moment. A most frustrating job be- Mr. Kneale: Yes you are. Now I will cause we do not at the moment know make it quite clear to you the duties, what our duties are. and it is just as well to remember that you passed the Broadcasting Commis- Mr. Bell: How many meetings have sion (Isle of Man). Act, 1465. Now in you had this year? this Act certain duties of the Commis.- sion are laid down — (1) To take such Mr. Kneale: We have had very few steps as may be necessary for the pro- because there is no point in having the vision and maintenance of a broad- meetings. This is the whole point. Now casting service or services as a means then, 1 will go on further with the of information, education and enter- duties of the Commission—"It shall 'be tainment; (5) to supervise ibroadcastirg the duty of the Commission to satisfy under this Act, to take note of the re- itself that as far as possible the pro- ception in the Isle of Man of 'broad- grammes broadcast .by or on behalf of casting both as to quality and content, the Commission comply with the fol- and from time to time as may deem lowing requirements . . . "And then necessary to report to the Governor they go on dealing with that. Later on thereon, and (c) to further the interests it says, "Powers of the Commission. of the Isle of Man in the whole field The Commission with the approval of of radio and television. We cannot fur- Tynwald may erect, equip and main- ther the interests of the Isle of Man in tain plant. buildings, stations and the field of commercial radio. namely equipment necessary for broadcasting: Manx Radio, unless we get more 'power, provide 'broadcasting facilities for com- We madie all the approaches. Mr Bolton mercial and social activities, include was chairman of the Broadcastirg th broadcasting advertisements and Commission, Mr. MacDonald was eha'r- make charge therefor." It goes on fur- man of the Broadcasting Commission. ther to say, "The Commission not itself They have all had their go at trying to to operate services without the ap- get extra power. I went as a deputation proval of Tynwald. The Commission with Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Hulme, shall not itself operate any broadcast- the Secretary of the Broadcasting ing service unless it shall have first Commission. to London. We met the obtained the approval of Tynwald to officials from the Home Office, we met do so." That is Section 6. This was the officials from the Post Office, Mr Mac- resolution that we were moving asking Donald was sure that we were going te for the approval of Tynwald for the get extra power. I told him on the way power that you were giving us with home that we had been led up the your approval in this Act that you garden, they had gone throuzli the passed. Now to go on further. "Ex- motions. We know who was right. My panses and receipts of the Commission, assessment of the case was more right in respect of any period during which than his was Now we are not keen to the Commission is itself operating any occupy these seats, but if it has got to broadcasting service, shall be paid into be, that two members of Government the funds of the Commission." Now have got to take thes.: hot seals: for this Act makes it suite clear from start the questions of trying another line of to finish that the Broadcasting Com- approach for extra power, then we are mission can with the approval of Tyn- c Lite prepared to accent t. We have wald operate a radio station. We have got more than enough work, as has asked you to give us that power. Again been pointed out, but we are doing the I have pointed out that the point deal-
Appoirtment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limitedr- Acprovet Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 19711 1831
ing with directors was not our baby. General, then we can do this. But we This is something we have been told would want the approval and support that this is the right line of approach, of Tynwald ibeforc we could do this. we must take this step first, and the Mr. MacDonald: That is not qui:te cor- hon. member of Council, Mr. Bolton, rect. who talked about it as mystifying and misleading, was the one that told us and .Mr. Kneale: Well Whether it is quite .enforced this on us, this idea on correct, we can ask our legal people. us, that this was the step we must take. This is the legal advice we have been given end if it Is right—land this is Mr. Bolton: I said the chairman's what I am saying—if it is right, then speech was mystify,:ng and misleading. we should be aibte to proceed. Mr. Mac- Mr. Kneale: Yes, but the whole de- Donald said the Court must make its bate is getting misleading and mysti- mind up on this. Well we .are asking 'the fying, and I think it is time we Court to make its mind up because as got hack to the fundamentals. Now. a Broadcasting Commission we are the three directors —I suggest that we completely frustrated and fed up under read their letters out to the whole the present set-np. Court, their letter of resignation, and I read what they put. It is up to them The Speaker; Your Excellency, I was to tell you why they resigned. If they puzzled by this resolution when I saw it say anything wrong in their remarks first, and as the debate unfolded :the we will soon correct them, but I feel posit on I became mystified, even more quite sure that if the letter is written, mystified, and now really I cannot get read out—,— to the grass roots of it even yet. There Members: Who has it? is too much mystery .altogether lalbout the whole ,.thing and what should be a Mr. Kneale: Well the letter of resig- straightforward issue. Quite honestly nation would go to the shareholders, I blame here the Executive Council not to the Broadcasting Commission. or it. Somebody has got to carry this We approved the resignation and accept particular responsibility, and we have it. The Broadcasting Commission also not heard enough from Executive Coun- approved, as they have to do, the ap- cil spokesmen today as to What their pointment of two directors by share- objective is. We have gro::: to draw our holders_ The two directors, as it hap- own conclusions and quite frankly mine pens, were the chairman of the Broad- are not happy conclusions. I do not like casting Commission and myst.lf. We this [resolution. I do not like the proposal had to sit on the Broadcasting Com- that there should be two members of mission and approve ourselves the e- tin's Count who are the sole directors of commendation from the shareholders of Manx Radio as I see at Yet tit 'would ourselves. The whole thing is intrigu- .appear on :Ile surface that on the 30th ing, as you say, to the emibarrassment June we are going to have no directors of the ocople involved. The "turn up of our company, Well you know, when the wick" business, well if we do not we got this .00rnioany I was mystified by require a licence if it is a Government- the process at the time. I thought run station, then we are doing nothing Government were going to be effective illegal. The question and the compari- controllers of broadcasting in the Isle son made with the North Sea radio of Man lin the sense tha.: Government station, that is an illegal staron. If we would be in control of strength of single are a legal station and we do not re- quality ocf programme and would ad- quire a licence from the Postmaster- minister this, in essence, through the
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1832 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
Bloadcasting Commission. I found, how- even then have not a lot of .confidence ever, that there were certain weaknesses in it as a working body. would like to see how it shapes. In consequence .about all this and it was not really an I would suggest then that z further operative thing at all. Now as we go on amendment he introduced 'at the end today we are told, put in itwo politi,ciarns of paragraph 1 by 'adding the words to run the .station, and they in turn will "and for a period of one year only." I be watchdogs over their own .activities: wan to see how the Broadcasting Com- most unpalatable as far 'as I am con- mission operate. Give them a trial period cerned in that form. And Shen to my of a year, If things are not working surprise, who has suggested this ? properly in that time, we have the Executive 'Council, Have they done so on platter in our hands. Mre Can say we :legal advice? I do not know. Or have want to change this set-up, as indeed they had other fish to fry? I would not somebody is saying "i4.1 today. 1 do not know 'that one either. But, to me, this -like it. I want to get the best possible is not the soin--3:on. The solution I.Ome out of this and the only way I can see is, i1 the Government wants a change of doing that is going with .What the n relation to broadcasting in the Isle Broadcasting ,Comra'Ssiion 'themselves 43-,f Man, it must !be of the opinion that originally have suggested, because un- the acceptance of the resolution today. less the mover corrects me here, this is (a. 'indeed any 'amendment, to tit, is in- now AS I understand '.:111e position. The dicative of its desire to have increased Broadcasting Commission 'suggested power as .a Government station. This is that they should have the control. Now implicit 'in either this resolution or the this would give them the control, it amendment. 'Now as for .an increase in would give them for a limited time, and power, I em all for it, and I am e firm it has the advantage of getting away believer in the fact that Government are from the complete control by politicians. authorised complei.ely to increase this with due respect to the politicians, not power Without hindrance on anyone's a palatable thing. Your Excellency, part as a Government operated Station. accordingly I would move without any ..Now how can I reconcile in my own further wording, sir, that in substitution 'mind all these things? I have attempted for item " Tynwald approves the to do so, Your Excellency, through a winding-up of the Isle of Man Broad- couple of 'amendments. I would suggest, casting Company Limited " and at Your Excellency, that we do not approve section 2 at the end of it there be item 1 of the proposal. that is the added th ewords " . and for a period appointment of directors. but rather that of one year only." In other words you Tynwald approves the winding-up of the could be authorised to operate .a broad- Isle of 'Man Broadcasting Company casting service for a period of one year Limited. This will get the company right only. I beg to move. out of the way. Now if the company is wound up, then in accordance with Mr. Nivi son : Your Excellency. would section 6 of the Broadcasting 'Commis- like to speak on the resolution in order sion Act. the Broadcasting Commission to clarify certain things. I subscribe to will be authorised to operate la broad- a lot of what Mr. Speaker has said. I casting service. Now the Broadcasting do not subscribe to the misunderstand- Commission is ,a broader based system ing that does appear in the Court, and —?or wan.. of .a better word—than two this misunderstanding may be because directors from this Court. At least there of certain speeches that have been are three non-political people on that made. This is an interim measure. This Commission. And, Your Excellency, I was the object of the exercise. It was
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— .Approved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1833 spoken of at some length and I think MT. Nivison: This is what I am trying it is necessary to relate some of the to say, sir, now. It is regrettable that history of what occurred. There were this did not come out right' at the certain staff troubles in Manx Radio and certain. people had to go, and after outset. This was an interim measure. these people went the general manager This was not sought 'by the chairman was in turn asked to go. The general of the Broadcasting Commission or the manager was at that time a technical vice-chairman, but it was thrust upon man. The general manager having gone them. I want to make that abundantly it left a vacancy ori the Board. .A techni- clear. It was not sought by them, but cal man was required—(interruption)—' not on the Board but it left a gap. The thrust upon them as an interim directors wished to have some technical 7 measure. It was hoped that this men on the Board which apparently matter should. be able to soldier on were not acceptable to the Broadcasting until such times as the Company Commission, and in turn the directors should he wound up. There are many intimated to the Broadcasting Com- of us that would like to know something mission that they were to resign. Now of the financial implications associated this is a brief history, this is fact, this with the Company. It has been dis- is not . . and I think this matter in cussed in this Court from time to time. turn was reported to qa certain quarter But we want the continuation. Many and it was discussed. A peculiar posi- thought it was .a pity that this had to tion has arisen. So in order to satisfy come, but it appeared that i•t was in- an interim period until such times as evitable and it had to come. The ques- the Isle of Man Broadcasting Company tion of turning the wick up and extra Ltd. could be wound up, somebody had power and all these sort of things are to be appointed-- incidental, they have nothing to do with this resolution at all. Nothing at all, It is the continuity of what we have, this Mr. MacDonald: Who told you this ? very excellent home service, broadcast- ing station that we have. Let us treat Mr. Nivison: If you listen I can per- the other thing as a separate issue haps explain. In order that during this altogether. There are some who would interim period somebody should be in not subscribe to the fact that even if charge it was thought that the ideal you had all the power that it was pos- people might be two of the members of sible to get, that it would be any good the Broadcasting Commission who to anybody. It could be on Thursday, knew something about the work, for it could be if the Conservatives were an interim period. The shareholders elected to power, that regional commer- incidentally are your nominees acting cial stations were appointed through- on behalf of Tynwald and the people out the United Kingdom, and it could of the Isle of Man, the Treasurer and be that a powerful commercial station the Secretary. And it was thought that in the Isle of Man might not be any the chairman and vice-chairman of the more good than a local station. It could Broadcasting Commission might act as be. But on the other hand, if the Labour directors until such times—the very Party were to form the Government thing that Mr. Speaker suggests—the they are against the commercial radio Company should be wound up and then and then, and only then, could the Isle in turn-- of Man benefit from having a commer- cial radio. And they may well do, but let us treat this as a separate issue. The Speaker: Well why have we not This is an interim thing, Your Excel- been told ? lency, an exercise for a position which
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited,— Approved; Permission. Granted to isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1634 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1.6, 1970
has arisen. and I think it was regretted Mr. Bolton: I would like to point out, by everybody that this position had sir, that there are considerable difficul- arisen. But there were circumstances ties which were appreciated when these which involved personalities which we matters were discussed in Executive do not want to embark upon, that made Cjuncil. Now it is all right and very it impossible 'to accede, I under- er.sy to get up and say, let us wind up stand, to the requirements of the direc- the Isle of Man Broadcasting Company tors in order that they should carry Ltd. But the Isle of Man Broadcasting on and they wished to retire. That Company Ltd., holds the Postmaster- was accepted in turn by the Commis- General's licence. Now as there are sion. three parties involved here we cannot just hand it over as if it was a bucket The Speaker: But were the directors and a scrubbing 'brush. The Postmaster- willing to carry on then, and if so, on General must be agreeable to this what terms ? llcence being transferred to the Broad- casting Commission. One cannot just Mr. Nivison: We understood that they say, let us wind up the Company. were not willing to carry on after they I think there is no doubt that the had wished for a certain person to be i:tention was in the beginning the added to the directors which was not Company should eventually 'be wound accepted. (Interruption.) A man with up. The steps cannot be taken im- a technical name. Let us put it that way, medi•ately for the very reason that the It is not for me to say. I am not quali- Company owns all the property, the fied myself and I cannot criticise people leases, the licence, and everything, and who are . . . In radio—I am not this must be arranged before any qualified. I am qualified in certain other question of liquidation of the 'Company things but not in radio. This is a can take place. or otherwise I am very bit embarrassing to bring all this kind much afraid that you would prejudice of stuff up, but this was the basis the licence, and this is one of the behind it, Your Excellency. Let us treat this as an emergency matter, like Mr. Speaker says, until such times as we The Speaker: The licence stays with can wind up the Company and then the Company. allow the Commission then to act under rection 6 of the Broadcasting Commis- Mr. Bolton: If you resolve to wind up sion. I think there is very little the Company today you could prejudice difference between the amendment the licence that you hold. And that is proposed by Mr. Speaker when we know what I am warning you of. I believe the facts, and the-- that there is no alternative at this moment to the appointment of directors The Speaker: A big difference. to the Company whether they be the two directors that are proposed or not Mr. Nivison: Well, I will support the amendment as proposed by Mr. Speaker is another matter. but the Company because when you know the facts it is must continue for some time until negotiations have taken place for a so similar and I do know the facts. transfer, and then when the Company Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, speak- ing to the amendment if I may-- has been denuded of its assets and of its licence, then it can be wound up. That I 'believe is the only way. The Governor: It has not been seconded. The Speaker: Your Excellency, on a Mr. Nivison: 1 will second it. point of order, my understanding of the position is—and I make this point
Appointment of Directors of Isle of 'Wan Broadcasting Company LimitedH- Aci:roved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a 13roadc,asting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 10, 197.0 1835
because I think it is important - forward the view that the two members Government does not require a licence. of the Broadcasting Commission, the Mr. Kerruish: Your Excellency, it is hon, member, Mr. Kneale, and the hon. my intention to support the resolution member, Mr. Crellin, were the type of as it appears on the agenda, and I think people who would turn at the wick and the objective of this resolution has been act in what I consider at the moment to clarified to a very great extent by par- to a completely irresponsible manner. ticularly the hon. member for Council. Now, sir, I am supporting the resolution Mr. Nivison, and also by his colleague because I do not have that same view in the Council. Mr. Bolton. The appoint- of those hon. members. I am satisfied. ment of the directors whether it be Mr. sir, that they will act in a highly Kneale or anyone else, is a vital responsible manner in their capacity necessity in order that the matter might both as directors of the Company and be regularised. Whether we like it or as continuing mem:bers of the Broad- not, the resignation of the present casting Commission. We have to be directors is likely to become effective conscious of the fact that the hon. at the end of this month, and a vacuum member for Peel, Mr. MacDonald, cannot be allowed to exist. Bence who has devoted a considerable study it is necessary that directors be to this particular subject, says it appointed in order that the licence be is by no means clear as to what is our kept in being and that the affairs of exact legal position in relation to this the Company be wound up if necessary. )..ery important matter. Now, sir, that But it is absolutely vital that this be has to be clarified because the gentle- kept in being. Now the hon. Mr. men we are electing as directors and Speaker is smiling 'but there is no who will continue as members of the mystery about this whatsoever. It is Commission to operate this station are quite clear that that is a mechanical members of this Government, and I procedure that has to be observed from expect them—and I feel quite certain the financial and company law angle, they will not disappoint me in this and similarly it is equally clear from respect—for them to conform to the this resolution that it is the intention ietters of the law, whether it be the that the station henceforth be operated national law or the international law. by the Broadcasting Commission. Now, and to behave in a responsible manner. sir, I will not conceal the view that for Because, sir, although .1 am a Manxman some long time I have always favoured born and 'bred here, I would not have it a two-tier control of }broadcasting in otherwise, and I would like to see more the Island. I feel, sir, that at this power vested in Radio Manx, but I want moment that no harm whatever would to behave in a responsible manner. I come of vesting in the Broadcasting appreciate this, that whilst Manx broad- Commission the power to operate this casting may be important it is a very licence pending the clarification of our small issue compared with other mat- position as we are continually endeav- ters that are at present the subject of ouring to clarify our position from the. negotiation between the Government of standpoint of increased power. Whilst the United Kingdom and other outside I will be supporting this resolution bodies. (Hear, hear.) I was very sur- I do so from an altogether different nrised to hear the hon, member for East angle than that put forward by the hon. Douglas, Mr. Irving, who is a member member for East Douglas, Mr. Irving. of the Common Market Committee, and If felt that his assessment of the Mr. Speaker, who is also a member of position would be correct, then 1 would the Common Market Committee, who reverse my opinion and vote against must appreciate as much as any mem- this resolution, 'because Mr. Irving put bers of this Court the great importance
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited,— Approved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1836 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 1.6, 1970 of a just settlement of our position ber for West Douglas, Mr. Kneale, will vis-a-vis United Kingdom and the Euro- uphold the dignity and the honour of pean Economic Community, that they this hon. Court. would take any steps that would create Mr..McFee: May I ask just two ques- in the minds of the Government of the tions, sir, and the first is the hon. United Kingdom or of the Council of member has been speaking about re- sponsible or irresponsible Government Europe the fact that this was an irre- — what is the position of the Executive sponsible Government. It is not very .with regard to this very important long, sir, that in this hon. Chamber the matter ? And the other is, is this ap- hon. Mr. Speaker put forward, and put -.2aintment which has been suggested only interim, is it only interim ? forward very eloquently and very ably, Mr. Bell: Like the Gas 'Committee ?. a case for this Island in front of the Royal Commission, and it was mit for- The Governor: Do you wish to speak ? ward against the background of us The Attorney-General: Yes sir, I being a responsible Government with a think I ought to say something. Your very ancient heritage and a very noble Excellency, it has 'been said that the background. Are we, sir, for the very names of the two proposed directors were put forward on legal advice, ob- limited 'benefit that is likely to accrue viously my advice. I dislike the thought from increased power for radio, likely of politicians running a broadcasting to prejudice our renutation as a respon- station as much as anybody else. The sible Government ?. This is why, sir, I position was — as I think has been am spelling out, as far as I am con- generally explained —the directors had cerned, virtually to the two hon. gentle- resigned for reasons that the hon. mem- men concerned who are going to be ber of the Council, Mr. Nivison, put elected directors, I hope, by this hon. quite clearly, they wanted a technical Court, and who will remain on the director. The technical director was Broadcasting Commission, that I expect turned down. That was one of the major them to behave as responsible members reasons and they felt they could no of a responsible Government at this 'anger carry on. particular point in time. To take a frivolous and irresponsible step could The Speaker: Who was it turned prejudice our position in the eyes of the down by ? Royal Commission and in the eyes of The Attorney-General: Turned down the Government of the United Kingdom by the Broadcasting Commission. It was and maybe bring upon our heads dire suggested that the Broadcasting Com- consequences. That is the point I wish mission should, with the approval of to make, sir. I am supporting the reso- Tynwald under section -6 of the 1965 lution, but I certainly underline the Act. run Isle of Man Broadcasting tact that 1 do not expect these gentle- Company Ltd. It was pointed out by the men to turn up the wick to use the hon. member, .Mr. Bolton, and myself. local, colloquial expression— or to that they could not do that — there was enter into any negotiations with a a company there, a company which had gentleman rejoicing in the name of Mr. the litence, a company which owned the Ronan O'Rahilly. or anyone else buildings, it was a company which (hear, hear) — without the authority of owned the equipment, and it would this hon. Court. I will support this have to be until people had time to resolution, but I will do so in the con- take breath and the company- had been stant belief that the hon. member for properly wound up and its undertaking Rushen, Mr. Crellin, and the hon. mem- purchased or its assets purchased any-
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited,— A pproved: Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1837
way, it would have to be the company Mr. Bell: Of getting somebody to that went on running the station. There agree with you. was no alternative to that. I do not like the idea of two politicians running The Attorney-General: But as I say, Manx Radio; I think it is quite wrong. one has got to tread very, very carefully quite frankly I do not like the idea of in these matters. These are only the Isle of Man Broadcasting Commis- opinions. But I am not — I want to sion running the Radio and supervising make it quite clear that if these two itself, although that is perfectly possible gentlemen become directors of Isle of and quite legal, under the Act. These Man Broadcasting Co. Ltd. on the 1st are just my personal likes and dislikes. of next month, if they turn up the wick And let me say, Your Excellency. I they will be up in Victoria Road before shall vote in this resolution in exactly they know where they are. (Laughter.) the same way as the Keys votes, unless And the equipment will be confiscated. there should be an amendment added that I should be beheaded at dawn, in Mr. Irving: Would the amendment which case I would change my mind. make it Government-operated, sir ? (Laughter.) been noted as say- The Attorney-General: No, it is im- ing that it has always been my opinion possible. You are going to wind it up. that if a Government-operated and owned station in the 1§e of Manwere Mr, Irving: Tell us how to make it to go on the air that it would not.fleed-a- Government-operated. -licence from the Postmaster- euesal Let me hastelt-crTiEnn out to you that The Attorney-General: bra, ha, I have if you agree to the appointment of the not worked that one out yet. (Laugh- two gentlemen who are named as direc- ter.) tors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Co. Ltd., that will not constitute an Isle of Mr. MacDonald: To clarify what the Man Government—ow and operated learned Attorney has just said. There broadcasting station. It will not. And in is one thing I think the Court should any event, I thirir.Within an hour of my realise, and that is that the present telling you some years ago. sir, that I channel on which Manx Radio is took the view — two years — that I took operating, in fact all the channels, the the view that such a station would not frequencies they are using are not require a licence from the Postmaster- allocated to Manx Radio. They are ni- General, I think I am right in saying located to the British Government Mock that I pointed out that doubt had been and the Postmaster-General of the thrown on that statement in a certain United Kingdom has allocated, with the respect. I am not going into that. I am I.T.U's agreement, 232 and E. But if we not going into that now because I do turn the power up he has the power to not intend to prejudice the Island's stop us because our channel is not case by throwing doubt upon it. If I legally recognised as belonging to Manx understood the hon. chairman of the Radio by the I.T.U. Broadcasting Commission aright, earlier The Governor: Now, do you wish to on this afternoon he said I think that say anything ? what I had stated was endorsed by Mr. Bathurst ? Mr. Crellin: Very briefly indeed, sir. I know there are things we have to get Mr. Crellin: Yes, sir. on with. First of all, I think it has been said, it is always an amazing thing to The Attorney-General: Yes. Which me that one has to have things said gives me a certain amount of satisfac- or say things three times in this hon. tion. Court before people will either take it
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. 1838 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
in or believe what you are trying to financial matters. So the Executive had say. Thai is absolute fact, of course. in fact already had permission from • that if we accept this post as directors both Houses of this hon. Court that they should in fact take the action which of Manx Radio. let me please say it they have taken. I 'thank all those that again. it will be in answer to the hon. have supported. I would like to state member of the Council, .Mr, McFee, of that I appreciate most of what the hon. the most interim nature. We have no member for Middle. Mr. Quayle. said. I desire whatsoever to take on what will agree with him completely. This is not be an extremely hot and burdensome my ring at all. I still favour the two- job. We do not complain about this. We tier system. But I believe as an interim do not ask people not to vote for us measure which keeps our options open because it will be hard work. We are and enables us to do what we are sure used to hard work. :We are not doing it must 'be done, I earnestly ask the Court for us, we are doing it so that the facade to regularise the 'position, I earnestly of the Company. as I said, having no ask the Court to support the resoluion. directors at the moment, may be re- tained until the company can be wound The Speaker: Your Excellency, may up and this was important, I said, be- I have an answer to my question, cause of the licence. because the licence please. Who turned down the appoint- was in the name of the concessionaire ment of the proposed technical director, company, no matter what the chairman causing the rest of the directors to re- of the Finance Board should say, be- sign ? cause I have got words from him here reiterating the exact opposite to what Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency will be he has said. well aware that under the terms of the agreements between the Broadcasting Mr. Bolton: You have not ! Commission and the ilsle of Man Broad- casting Company, " The prior written Mr. Crellin: Also there is the copy- consent of the Broadcasting Commis- right; now the copyright has been sion shall be required for any change or negotiated with the Performing Rights alteration in the Memorandum and Society and the Phonographic Enter- Articles of Association of the conces- tainment Ltd.. and all the other sionaire including any change in the authorities all of which have to constitution of the concessionaire relat- be transferred and there is the winding ing to the appointment of its directors up of the company for which you and including also any change in the need directors. Now 'at no time did name of the concessionaire, any changes the Broadcasting Commission suggest in the control of the concessionaire, any that either the hon. member for West changes in the control of any new ap- Douglas or myself should be directors of pointments to the board of directors Manx Radio. In fact 'I did not know or of the concessionaire, the conditions about it until a day after the meeting of governing any increase in the issued Executive Council when this was pro- share capital of the concessionaire." pounded it was thought to be the best solution. And let us not forget The Speaker: The Commission did. also, since Mr. McFee has also raised Mr. Crellin: Yes, sir. this question, that the Executive Coun- cil has already got permission from The Governor: I shall first of all put both Rouses of this hon. Court that the hon. Mr. Speaker's amendment, they arc, in fact, responsible for Manx which is that for paragraph 1 there Radio. You will recall that this was would be substituted the words: (1) brought forward and that they would That Tynwald approves the winding up consult with the Finance Board on of the Isle of Man Broadcasting Com-
Appointment of Directors of Isle of Man Broadcasting Company Limited— Approved; Permission Granted to Isle of Man Broadcasting Commission to operate a Broadcasting Service. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1839
pany Limited ", and that at the end of Mr. P. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I paragraph 2 there be added the words: beg to move: Petition of the Mayor, " for a period of one year only ". Those Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough in favour of the amendment please say of Douglas for authority to borrow a aye, those against say no. The noes have sum not exceeding £.-19,500, at a maxi- it. Vow the resolution as it appears on mum rate of interest not exceeding the the Order paper. Those in favour say rate of lawful interest from time to aye, those against say no. time obtaining, repayable within a A division was called for and voting period of 15 years from the date of bor- resulted as follows:— rowing. for the following purposes— (a) £12,000 for the ninth phase of the In the Keys— comprehensive scheme for the renewal For; Messrs. Anderson, Crowe, Ker- and relining of water mains; (b) £6,000 ruish, Radcliffe, Cretin, Vereker, for future extensions; and (c) Canister, Corkish, Irving, Burke, for the replacement of a mains booster Kneale and Devereau — 12. pump and motor. This is the continua- tion of the policy of the Douglas Cor- Against: Mr. MacLeod, Miss Thorn- poration, .1960, ton-Duesbery, Messrs. .S pitt al 1, It was agreed. Quayle, Faragher, Bell, MacDonald, Sir Henry :Sugden, Mr. Hislop and the Speaker —10. EXTENSION OF LAXEY VILLAGE The Speaker: Your Excellency, the BOUNDARIES—APPROVED resolution carries in the House of Keys. Twelve votes being cast in favour and The Governor: Item 28. You have the ten against. report of the Clerk of Tynwald. Does In the Council— any member wish to make a proposal? For: The Lord Bishop. the Attorney- The Speaker: Your Excellency, I pre- General, Messrs. Corkhill, McFee, sent the petition of the Commissioners Nivison, Radcliffe, Sir Ralph Steven- of the Village District of Laxey for a son — 7 resolution of Tynwald pursuant to sec- tion 10 of the Local Government Con- Against: Messrs. Bolton and Nicholls solidation Act 1916 extending the boun- — 2. daries of the Village District of Laxey The Governor: Seven in favour and to include that portion of the Parish of two against. The resolution therefore Lonan represented by the portion carries. coloured pink lying between the blue line and the red line on the plan de- posited with the petition and for leave to the petitioners to introduce into the Legislature a Bill to provide for dif- PETITION OF DOUGLAS ferential rating and other matters as set CORPORATION TO BORROW out in the petition. Could I move the MONIES RE PLANT FOR THEIR prayer of the petition be granted as a WATER UNDERTAKINGS— non-contentious issue, sir? APPROVED Mr. Bell: I beg to second. The Governor: Now before we adjourn The Governor: Is it agreed? for tea we might just take the peti- It was agreed. tions and save the Borough of Douglas from extra costs. Number 27. The Isle The Governor: We will now adjourn of Man Local Government Board. for tea.
'Petition of Douglas Corporation to Borrow Monies re Plant for their Water Undertakings—Approved.— Extension of Laxey Village Boundaries—Approved. 1840 TYNIWALD COURT, JUNE 16, I97.0
EXTENSION OF SECTIONS 3 AND 5 Net Regulations Orders extended in the OF THE UNITED KINGDOM SEA manner indicated and the need for FISH (CONSERVATION) ACT 1967 TO the orders can be readily ascertained by THE ISLE OF MAN—APPROVED reference to the number of foreign fish- ing vessels which. within the last few The Governor: Item 25. The chairman years, have been boarded within the of the Board of Agriculture. twelve-mile limits and found to be Mr. Crowe: Your Excellency, I beg to carrying nets which do not comply with move:— the North-East Atlantic Regulations. When these boats are brought into Manx Tynwald hereby requests Her Majesty by Order in Council— waters and skippers should be brought before Manx courts, we cannot do this til extend the provisions of Section 3 (which relates to the regulation of fishing because we have no jurisdiction over nets and other fishing gear) and Section 5 the limits from the three to twelve (which confers power to restrict fishing for miles. Now the Court will be aware that sea fish) of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act, 1967, of the United Kingdom Parliament, in 1963 the Board of Agriculture intro- together with certain ancillary ,provisions of duced its own bye-laws which enforced the Act. to the Isle of Man with appropriate a close season for the escallop fishing, exceptions adaptations and modifications: and and these orders were introduced to (Li) to apply the said Sections 3 and 5 to British fishing boats registered in the Isle conserve the escallop beds. A large of Man as they apply in relation to British portion of the escallop and queenie beds fishing boats registered in the United lie outside the Island's territorial limits Kingdom. but within the twelve-mile limit and At present the Island has only jurisdic- the extension of section 3 of the Act to tion over the three-mile territorial the three- to twelve-mile limit will en- waters and the United Kingdom Govern- able the United Kingdom Government ment has jurisdiction over the waters to make an order similarly esablishing enclosed within the three- to twelve-mile a close season for escallops in that area. limits surrounding the Isle of Man. This Now the Board of Agriculture, sir, have motion today has been made to enable put forward applications for our limits the United Kingdom to make certain to be extended and I am sure that hon. necessary conservation orders to the members will naturally ask us to go on three- to twelve-mile limit with the ex- pressing for this very thing. I think this pressed object of protecting the fishing is a reasonable thing that we should grounds. The extension of section 3 of have the twelve-mile limit if at all the Act— three- to twelve-mile waters possible and we are certainly going to surrounding the Island by Order of fight for this. In the meantime, sir, to Council will enable certain of the con- try to enforce regulations under this servation measures agreed at the North- Atlantic Treaty we ask you if you will East Atlantic Fisheries Convention to accept this resolution today and give us apply to these waters. Should the Court so that we can put forward an Order approve the resolution, the United King- of the Council that will enable us to dom Government will thereafter make have the net regulations and, whenever en Order similar to the Fishing Nets we so desire, have a limit put on the (North-East Atlantic) Order 1968, which period of fishing for certain fish. I beg will make it an offence to fish three to to move. twelve miles off the Island with under- sized nets. The Board intend introducing Mr. MacDonald: I beg to second this coincidentally a similar net order in and I would compliment the Board of respect of the Island's territorial waters. Agriculture and Fisheries in, at last, I may say, sir, that the Board has been bringing this forward. There is no doubt pressing for some years to have the at the moment that out of the twelve-
Extension of Sections 3 and .5 of the United Kingdom Sea Fish (Conservation) Act. 1967 to the Isle of Man—Approved. • TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1841 mile limit foreign boats are over-fishing protected and something is done about our waters. There is one thing, Your over-fishing, the present escallop fishing Excellency, I would like the chairman industry and the queenie industry could to take to the Ministry of Agriculture be very, very seriously damaged, and I and Fisheries in England, that at the think you will agree with me on this. time of the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Already our boats are having to cross Convention the agreements • made in- to the Irish coast to look for the shell cluded an agrement that the admiralty fish in the quantities they require to make their new boats fully viable. of the various counts ies agreeing to the Convention would produce for the fisher- Mr. Crellin: Your Excellency. I would men actual charts on the limits. I have just like to make a couple of points con- sat in on three court eases recently firming what the hon. member for Peel where French fishing boats have been has said. Everything he said, in fact. because I believe there is to a certain brought before our courts and on each extent a great deal of lack of communi- occasion they have pleaded that they cation and information on this subject, were inside the territorial area, They I have been having a look at this knew about the limits, the fishing limits. and I have been trying to sort it out but they were inside these limits be- myself, and I find that Your Excel- lency's predecessor made a statement in cause the Admiralty had not produced Tynwald — I think it was in 1964 — on the charts agreed at the time of the the subject and said that negotiations Convention. I think in one case the were actively pursued. I believe that at court that sat at the time did punish that time there was a 1963 Act produced the fishermen although in the view in this hon. Court with regard to fishing in the Isle of Man, and since then we of the members of the public sit- have heard nothing. But what we have, ting in on the case there was no doubt in .fact, is — and I believe also that this the French fisherman, the skipper, had a is the first time that a chairman of the very good argument for being let off, Board of Agriculture and Fisheries - and I am cinite prepared to be corrected and I would hope that the Board will and apologise if this is necessary — has take up with the British Ministry who come before the Court asking for one in turn. I hope, would take up with the of the British Acts to be applied by Admiralty the need for these Admiralty Order in Council to the Isle of Man, and charts to be made available for the this would appear to me to be rather an various fishing countries operating in unsatisfactory state of affairs. Because the Irish Sea. Once these are issued any if we can produce our Act on one thing, boat then caught with 100 fathoms in- then 1 am wondering why we cannot side our water we can pin — there can Produce it on the lot. so that everybody be no argument about it. They are all knows what the Manx law is on the fitted with Decca equipment, they know subject, and I hope also that this infor- exactly where they are, and it is very mation which is typical in the running important that this is done. I am very of the Board of Agriculture and Fish- pleased that the Board are going to try, eries, it's no use having laws unless though it will be difficult, and very diffi- they are communicated fully to the cult, to try to extend especially the shell people whom they are likely to affect. fishing limits, because I think that, as I do hope that the Board will continue probably the member for Douglas West to do this with the vigilance that they will confirm. unless these grounds are are adopting at the moment.
Extension of Sections 3 and 5 of the United Kingdom Sea Fish (Conservation) Act, 1967 to the Isle of Man—Approved. 18442 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
Mr. Devereau: This resolution to me, right to control our waters up to the Your Excellency, is rather like the 12-mile limit, and then we would have curate's egg — it is good in parts. I can the power to conserve this very valuable fishing. agree that section 3 might easily he applied to the Isle of Man by Order in Mr. Canister: Who is going to police Council, but I do not generally like the it ? principle of laws and regulations being Mr. Devereau: If we do allow the imposed on our people by Orders in British Gove:nment to effect this con- Council. The debate that we had this trol we will get nowhere. We have been afternoon proved that it is a dangerous trying for years to have the control of procedure, and, while I have the greatest the shell fishing around the coast of respect for the Board of Agriculture, I Britain, but they will not wear this at feel that in section 5, in handing over all, and if this Order in Council is passed this power to the British Government to they still will not wear it, even though control .the preservation of fish in our it would be to our good if they did bring own waters up to the 1.2-mile limit, this in the Order. I would say that I would be forced to vote against this resolution is a dangerous precedent.,Who is going to on the grounds that we are abrogating say that at some time in the future the power to preserve and conserve our own British Government might not be of the fisheries around the Isle of Man. opinion that fishing herrings at the end of the season, in the August-Sep- The Speaker: Your Excellency, I am tember part of the season is not supporting the resolution, but I am in dangerous to the health of British full agreement with the hon. member fishing ? IL could easily be thought that who has just spoken as to the means of fishing vast quantities of herrings that implementing it. It is not so very long are "making" out of waters adjacent to ago that we were very determined here the Isle of Man might be constituting a that every bit of legislation that could be danger to the fishing of herrings even as brought in through our own resources far afield as the east coast of Britain, should be handled in the Isle of Man in and pressure could easily be put on the form of legislation and not through Westminster by the North Shields Orders in Council, and you never know Fishermen's Association, by the Clyde when, in fact, this sort of thing reacts Fishermen's Association. and people of to your disadvantage if you do not carry that nature. to stop this fishing, which out that particular determination. An is very rewarding fishing as far as the example recently — and you may think economy of the Isle of Man is concerned. this is a strange one to give you — is This example is one thing that could this: not so very long ago our local happen if we give over this — under branch of the Commonwealth Parlia- section 5 of the Sea Fish Conservation mentary Association asked for an im- Act of 1965. the right to Britain to con- provement in status of the Island in its trol the waters surrounding the Isle of relationship with the parent body. Now Man and say when certain fish should that has been deferred, and the reason be conserved. I think this is dangerous. it has been deferred is because of our I think we have got to be careful here. I close link with the United Kingdom would agree with the hon. member for because of the Common Purse. You are Peel that conservation of our —particu- not, they say, until you prove otherwise, larly just now — shell-fishing is very the separate entity that you profess to necessary. But we should do it, not be, and this is the sort of thing — the the British Government. I think we strings that bind you. When you take ought to strive, as he has said, to get a another case. you may be told: " Oh, but
Extension of Sections .3 and 5 of the Unted Kingdom Sea Fish (Conservation) Act. 1967 to the Isle of Man—Approved. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 .1843
in relation to your sea-fishing you were to an international convention or agree- applying a British Order in Council; you ment, but it relates to the fishing of did not bother with your own legisla- salmon or migratory trout. Now, hon. tion." I am not going to labour this, members will know that there is con- Your Excellency, but 1 wish to move an siderable concern being expressed in amendment: " Tynwald hereby requests the United Kingdom with regard to the the Board to introduce legislation to 1, salmon fisheries, because, apparently- 2, 3. 1 do not know is it the Icelanders, the Greenlanders, or the Danes — but who- Mr. Crowe: Before we cut the ground, ever it is are netting them out of the Your Excellency, could I say that in the sea. These are, needless to say, our Isle of Man we have no jurisdiction outside the three-mile limit. Therefore, salmon, which are returning to our if we did bring in our own Act in the waters, and. we are very, very concerned Isle of IVian it would have no powers— about it indeed, and we are finding it, I only for three miles; think, impossible to reach agreement. Consequently there is that one ex- The Attorney-General: That is just ception; that an Order can lbe made, what I was trying to point out. The hon. not for the purposes of international member for West Douglas referred to agreenient, but only in relation to " our own waters." We are retaining - salmon or migratory trout. I know very the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries little about these matters, but you have has insisted on our retaining our powers heard the chairman of the Board of over our own waters, namely, our terri- Agriculture and :Fisheries, and I torial waters u.p to three miles. We have appreciate the hon. Mr. Speaker's no powers beyond three miles, It is only concern in these things. 1 do,.but this is the Government of the United Kingdom a matter of if we want to control the that can legislate for the British fishery fisheries from the three- to the twelve- limit~—except we may legislate for our mile limit; if we want to have some con- own three-mile limit, and that we pro- trol; if we want to stop these foreign pose to do. The application of section 5 is boats coming in with these fine meshes for our own protection as much as any- and fishing for the wrong sort of fish, body else's, and the hon. member for Feel then this is the only way we can do it, has pointed out the necessity for it, and and there is no legislation in the world the hon. Mr. Speaker need mot fear that that will enable us to do it for ourselves. we could be accused in the future of not having bothered with our own legisla- Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, the point tion. We cannot legislate for the three- raised by Mr. Devereau, the hon. mem- to twelve-mile limit. I would say that ber for West Douglas, is a very good the power to restrict fishing for sea fish point, and he is referring to the com- within the three- to twelve-mile parison and the effect of the Wireless limit can only be exercised for the Telegraphy Act. But this point was purpose of giving effect to any conven- raised at the Board of Agriculture. tion or agreement for the time being in Would it not be possible for us to draft force between Her Majesty's Govern- the Bills ourselves, and I am wondering ment in the United Kingdom and the if my memory serves me correctly in Government of any other country. And that we put it to the learned Attorney as hon. members are well aware, we are, and we were advised it was so compli- at the very least, consulted with regard cated and difficult that the best way to to these conventions. I should explain give effect to it was by agreeing to the that there is one case where an Order Order in Council being applied, But can be made other than to give effect having now heard what has been said,
Extension of Sections 3 and 5 of the United Kingdom Sea Fish (Conservation) Act. 1967 to the Isle of 'Man—Approved. 1844 TYNWALD COURT. JUNE 16, 197.0
1 can see that the best way of giving was in the board office and he did effect for protection against people who mention this very fact, and there was we may regard as poaching on our put before him from the Board office 1 rightful preserves is one thing; but hav- think four charts which had been pre- pared quite recently which he knew ing our own fishermen also prohibited nothing about. I would admit that all by legislation from going there at a the charts have not been prepared. It different period of the year, when the is not the Board of Agriculture's job to economy of this Island would rightly prepare these charts, but they have not induce them to go there, I think is a been prepared as this convention did matter which we could possibly further lay down. Quite a few of them are consider, and 1 would not wish to in existence, and all the others will be renague on the Board. As I am sure prepared and will be available to fisher- there is no urgency on this today. I am men in the very near future. I beg to wondering Your Excellency, would the nave, sir. chairman agree to withdraw this resolu- tion so that we could have a look at it The Governor: I will now put the in order that we are not legislating by question. Those in favour please say Order in Council to prohibit our own aye. Those against please say no. The local fishermen at particular periods, ayes have it. and I would ask him if he would ask the Court to endorse this and give per- mission to withdraw it. PROPOSAL RE CONSERVATION The Governor: Do you wish to reply ? AT CREGNEISB — REJECTED Mr. Crowe: Yes, I would, sir, and first of all I would wish to say that I have 'rhe Governor: Item number 26. The no desire to withdraw this on behalf of hon. Mr. Speaker. our own fishermen. Because, you see, The Speaker: Your Excellency, I beg before the English authorities would to move— act — the English authorities would act That Tynwald. desirous of maintaining the in any case — they would ask our natural amenities which constitute an opinion in this matter. 1 would give invaluable asset of this Island, and bearing the Court my word that I would not in mind, in European Conservation Year, the importance of preventing the despoliation cease to press for our fishery limits to of the Manx Countryside— be extended right up to the twelve miles, (I) is of the opinion that the area from and then we would have some jurisdic- Cregneish to the South should be retained tion over what then we could bring for- with its scenic beauty unimpaired and all ward an Act for. But, at the moment, incongruous features removed; as the Attorney-General says. We have (2) confirms its approval of the submission previously made by the Manx Museum no jurisdiction. Now, until we get juris- and National Trust in their estimates diction we have got to do something. presented to this hon. Court on the 24th If we do not do something our March, 1970. as implementing- the first fishermen may be out of a job, and this phase of this principle: (3) requests His Excellency the Lieutenant- is the only reason why this has been Governor to take the necessary steps to put forward at the present time. Now, ensure implementation of this project outside of the Order in Council, which during European Conservation Tear, I do not like, there was just one ques- Your Excellency. this resolution is based tion, and I think this was the chart of on the assumption that this Island the area. I did meet the captain of one wishes to associate itself with the prin- of the French protection vessels, who ciples of the European Conservation was in Douglas not so long ago, and he year and that this Government desires
Proposal re Conservation al. Cregneish—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1845 to give a practical lead in this matter such an important issue, and would not by carrying out a programme, however be prepared to leave the Island's small, which will be the indication of contribution to a few volunteers who the Island's support for a theme of con- have so far attempted to get various servation shared by all European com- activities in hand without any positive munities. Now, it was in 1963 that the lead from Government. So, through the idea of European Conservation Year resolution set out on the agenda, I am was first mooted for celebration in 1970, endeavouring today, with your assist- and it is really based on harnessing of the co-operative efforts of many nations ance, to get a Government position to improve man's environment. Among stated here, and a clear cut position at its aims is the objective of creating an that, and you will see from the agenda awareness of man's propensity to des- it is one which states "That Tynwald is troy his environment and to stimulate of the opinion that the area from Creg- a sense of personal and social trustee- neish to the south should be retained ship for the heritage of the peoples of with its scenic beauty unimpaired and Europe. Now. they are aims with which all incongrous features removed." That, the majority of members. I have no I am quite sure, is one that is accept- doubt, will happily associate themselves able to all members. " Confirms its today. Regrettably, the Island has never approval of the submission previously got this idea of European Conservation going. Although the approaches were made by the Museum and Nation-al first made to Government as far back Trust, in their estimates. to this hon. as May 1969, no authority has ever been Court on the 24th March as implement- created to cal ry out any stipulated pro- ing the first phase of this principle." gramme. This omission has, in part, Now that, as I have said, was the under- been due to the reluctance of Govern- grounding of overhead wires in the ment departments to accept responsi- Cregneish area, Your Excellency. The bility, and when a voluntary organisa- cost at that time was stated to be in the tion did submit ideas, those ideas were neighbourhood of 215,000, and, Your not acceptable to the Boards concerned. Excellency, this is a matter which has Now, the only people connected with the full backing, I may say, of the Government who have any enthusiasm National Trust, and is one that they are for the idea to date of carrying out the anxious to put in hand. Now, number 3 aims and objectives of this European is the item of which I am quite sure Conservation Year are the Museum and there may be a measure of disagree- National Trust, and as part of their ment, although I think it possible today year's programme of work they submit- the Court will be willing to accept, ask- ted in their estimates proposals for the ing Your Excellency to get on with this Cregneish area which would be in keep- during European Conservation Year. It ing with the aims and objectives of this cannot be a matter of cash that is hold- year's programme. Those proposals. ing us back, Your Excellency. It is which were for the undergrounding of surely a matter of will to do this pro- overhead Gables in an area of great gramme; to carry it out and implement scenic beauty, were accepted in prin- it. And what more fitting way could we ciple by Tynwald, but regrettably they associate ourselves with this venture were not, despite the happy state of the than by carrying out the implementation Island's finances, included in the Budget of the programme that the Museum has proposals. I am sure, Your Excellency, in mind as the first phase of bringing that this Government would not wish to back this area and preserving it in all be found in default on what is today its old time and traditional beauty ?
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. 1846 TYN•WALD COURT, JUNE 16, MO
Consequently. Your Excellency, I beg sarily on the grounds that there are to move the resolution standing in my other priorities, or that we have name. insufficient money, but merely to indi- cate that hon. members of the House of Mr. Crellin: I second. Keys, having made a recent decision, are determined that there should be a Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, the suspension of Standing Orders for a obvious purpose, as Mr. Speaker has reasonable period of six months to made it clear, of this motion is the elapse before we have to reconsider the undergrounding of these wires in the matter, sir. Cregneish area. Now, I would have thought, sir, there are areas in this Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I rise to Island where the undergrounding of defend the hon, Mr. Speaker from this wires would be justified on the grounds attack, as it must be quite obvious to of a better service to consumers, and I everyone who went to the Summit on would have thought that priority should the Manx Electric Railway yesterday be given to those areas where the con- that Mr. Speaker is moving this resolu- sumers are suffering interruptions in tion with his tongue in his cheek, their service because the wires are not because the Laxey Village Commissio- underground. Now, this to me is one ners' open-air refuse dip was really reason why I originally opposed this something for the attention of your motion. or at least this suggestion. But Conservation Society. And when we got there is a more important one now, I on to the mountain, Your Excellency, believe, sir, and that is I am sure that we found that the Speaker himself was the main issue this afternoon to hon. attempting to destroy the Isle of Man members of the Keys must be the fact by fire — that part of it which he owns that four weeks ago the Keys made a up there. I do recall the hon. Mr. very definite decision on this matter. Speaker describing the Island and what It would seem that Mr. Speaker is could be done to beautify it not so many ignoring the expressed wishes of the years ago. and I did understand, and I Keys, which were, by thirteen votes to accept it, that the farming community nine, that we should not proceed with throughout the Island themselves were this. Now he is, sir, du.e to a technicality. going to set about beautifying the raising this matter here today, and entrances to their farms. Such things as hon. members of this House who expres- having the names of the farms painted sed their feelings in the matter; if they on nicely coloured signs, new gates put were in their own Chamber — and 1 on, white-washed pillars by the farms. am not going to suggest that we retire and all this — such a beautiful picture to our own Chamber — if. we were in was painted for us. But you would not our own Chamber, the hon. Mr. Speaker think it going around the Island. Much would require the suspension of Stand- can be done. I am all for the Island ing Orders to consider this matter again looking beautiful, and much can be done within six months. We are not, and of by personal involvement. But this here, course the Standing Orders of Tynwald to waste money down on the South do not prevent him from bringing it is- forward today. But I must say that I Mr. Irving: The South was on your am surprised that Mr. Speaker has done side ! so. I am surprised that he has ignored the recently — only four weeks ago - Mr. Belli Not your South — really ..expressed wishes of the House of Keys, South. Laxey itself, and Garff, have and I would hope hon. members today suffered seriously over the years with would oppose this motion, not neces- breakdowns in services with power and
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 19741 1847 telephones. I agree with the hon. mem- where the family of probably eight or ber for East Douglas — if you have got ten or twelve slept on the floor. It reeks any cash to spare and you wish it to be with smells and there is certainly not used on this thing, use it where it will standard of housing there. That Manx be appreciated by the people who are cottage is nothing to be proud of. In living, and not for the thoughts of the fact it is something of which we should old past. feel thoroughly ashamed. I am a senti- mental Manxman, and I submit to no- Mr. Corkhill; Your Excellency, it gives one in my love of this Island and all it me pleasure in getting up this afternoon stanch for, It may surprise you that thinking about where the Island could forty years ago I was secretary of the be improved to some extent. This morn- World Manx Association, and I was ing I think that no less a person than forced to leave the Isle of Man at that the Speaker himself was in full support time. I became the secretary of the of flags from Ballacraine to St. John's. London Manx Society. I came to the Well I am of the opinion. Your Excel- conclusion that there were more Manx lency, that instead of spending this people in Liverpool and in London and money so far away that if they really in Canada and in the colonies than there want to improve the road to St. John's are in the Isle of Man. And why did they and about St. John's they could do a leave? Because of the horrible condi- whole lot better even than the flags, and tions and poverty and housing in this I have supported the flags, but before Isle of Man and no work for them. And erecting the flags if they took down the if anybody wants to preserve the Manx telephone poles and all other things cottage in which they were -Or n— which do not really fit in with flag poles, I would be in full agreement with them. Mr. MacLeod: Why did you come back I think it would be something which to the Island? would really affect and give a good effect to Tynwald and that is all I have Mr, Callister: Because I loved it so to say. much. I did not want to be away for a day. And I could echo T. E. Brown when Mr. Callister: Your Excellency, I be- he says, "For thrice nine barren years lieve in placing the electric wires under- my feet have trod . . ground when the opportunity arises if Mr. MacLeod: He was a Scotsman! we can see our way to do it. I would (Laughter.) also like to say that I .believe in preserving the Manx countryside. Mr. Callister: " The gorse runs riot in One is never surprised when the Glen Chass, thank God ". And when I Speaker bursts forth in an oratorical think of trying to preserve this as a effusion on some idea which might monument of what should be preserved attract popularity and he fails on this in the Isle of Man I merely sweat. When instance to give me any idea about the in my childhood I went into cottages in importance of preventing the despolia- the Isle of Man where families lived. tion of the Manx countryside. The best the same type of cottage as you have he can say is to refer to Cregneish got at Cregneish. where the children which was once a most delightful little were brought up, where the insects countryside and it has been despoiled were in the thatch, where the walls by the artificial rubbish that has been were damp and dirty, where the thie- put there and all we have is a beautiful veg was down at the bottom of the Manx cottage. I have been in this par- garden — and if we really want, if the ticular cottage— it has an earth floor, Speaker wants to preserve or conserve it has a cockloft with stairs up to it, this sort of thing, I would suggest that
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. 1848 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 he takes his robes and we will give serve many things, but have been a lone him the equivalent of the Poor Law and voice. There were 500 fishing boats he goes down and he sits in that cottage going into Peel at one time—what are for three months of the year, and he you doing about it? makes his own way by that, and let the Mr. MacDonald: Never 500. visitors come and see him. He can say, " This is what we have preserved Mr. Callister: There were 500 in the of our heritage." Now it has been sug- Isle of Man. gested that there are many other ways Mr. MacDonald: That is better. of preserving our heritage. I think in terms of the men and women who suf- Mr. Callister: There were 300 of them fered in this Isle of Man to leave us a in Peel. I proposed that you protect and heritage we enjoy, that is a more pros- save the Isle of Man Bank, which was perous Island. a 'better agriculture. If created by Manxmen for the Isle of we wanted to preserve anything, why Man. But you did not. You could pre- did not we preserve the fishing indus- serve the farms for tenant farmers and try? II we wanted to preserve some- farmers' sons who want to live in them. thing in the nature of human beings. I And you couid,as the hon. member for could give you twenty names of men South Douglas said, really make your farms attractive, not the mess that some who have made this Isle of Man what of them are in. There is the Isle of Man it is. I believe that the Museum does a Steam Packet Company, which is our magnificent job—I have always said very life-line. It could be bought out so. But to my mind, the very thought tomorrow very nearly, if you did not of this thatched cottage and the thought mind. And there is just one item 1 of the hovels up at Eoxdale and in every would like to refer to. There are monu- parish in the Isle of Man, I could bring ments in the Isle of Man which, I be- lieve, the Museum and the Natural you to. the hovels that we have got, and History Society are protecting, quite we want to spend £15,000 on putting rightly, and I am proud of it. I believe right the spoliation of Cregneish as we Lhat in those clays of poverty and suffer- have done it, by putting up wires. ing and disease the only comfort work- It would cost about three times that ing people got in this Isle of Man was to do it, I understand, and the 'people to go to their little church or their little in Cregneish do not like this idea. I can chapel. It saved them; it saved them tell you. They find people coming down from leaving the Isle of Man. It saved their characters. I know of little chapels there to see how the Manx people lived. dotted all round this Isle of Man that And they feel that this intrusion of have been turned into workshops. I visitors who come gawking and peeping would rather see one of these little into their houses is something which churches or chapels kept as a monument they enjoy — they do not! If you want for the people that made us — our pre- to preserve anything let us think of the decessors — in the Isle of Man. All the human beings that made this Island Speaker has done is tell us that for the and put your torture chambers like the preservation or conservation of the thatched cottages and the instruments Island — of the Isle of Man countryside, that were used in those days in the in this European Conservation Year Manx Museum where they should be, to to put the electric wires at Cregneish show us how we have improved our underground. The vote for housing was heritage. During my membership of this cut down by the Finance Board by Legislature I have endeavoured to pre- £45.000, and we have got thousands of
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Relecteo. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1849
people in this Island living in unin- in perspective, sir, in addition to which, habitable conditions. I am not support- as I say. the National Trust and the ing this resolution at this moment. Museum Trustes have already had very considerable amounts of money allocated Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, I would to them. Now one of the things that was like to say, sir. that I do not think that said by Mr. Speaker was this. It cannot we can consider this particular resolu- be a matter of cash. Now these are glib tion in isolation. This was submitted.by statements. But Mr. Speaker knows full the Manx Museum and National Trust well that in our Budget we provided for in their original estimates. along with a borrowing £1,400,000 in addition to the figure of £27,000 in connection with the cash we had to spend. So that if this Library at the Museum, with a further money is spent it must be borrowed. It commitment of a further figure in is not a question of us having the cash future years in connection with the in our pockets. If. I were to expi ess my Library, together with a sum of £1,000 own personal opinion, 1 would-say that to purchase land at Cregneish. The if certain good people wish to preserve Budget did contain provision for the places like Cregneish, and this is not purchase of the land for £l.000, and for really Cregneish, this is the road down £27,000 for the Museum, with further to the Sound That is being preserved, commitments in future years. This is then there is no earthly reason why they not in isolation. And furthermore, I should not contribute to private funds would like to suggest, sir, that Mr. in the same way that many. many Speaker has rather suggested that the people in years gone by contributed to very submission in the Green Book of do similar good works. an estimate does imply acceptance in principle by Tynwald. This has never Mr. McFee: Your Excellency, with been the case. We know the type of regard to the questions raised by the resolution that comes forward with the hon. members from Douglas, I would Green Book: that Your Excellency give say, as the only member of the Electri- consideration to this matter. Now, it has city Board here present, that the Elec- not been accepted in principle at all. tricity Board is seriously considering Furthermore, there is another question certain undergrounding of lengths of that I do not know — who said it was overhead cable, particularly in those going to cost £15,000 ? The hon. mem- areas where the consumer is affected. ber for North Douglas has mentioned And that is if it is necessary, even for that it might cost a lot more. This is amalgamation, you are prepared to vote just somebody's guess. A further matter for it. Now with regard to the contribu- is this: European Conservation Year has tion that Mr. Callister, North Douglas, been pleaded, and it is suggested that has given to the debate, I would say we should do something in connection that if he was logical he should vote with European Conservation Year. I against the continuation of the Museum just wonder exactly what contribution itself. has been made by the British Govern- Mr. Callister: No. ment to European Conservation Year ? Because this £15.000 alone is merely as Mr. McFee: Yes, because the thatched a gesture and of no value compared cottage to which he refers is the open- with the value of undergrounding wires air museum of the Isle of Man. One, at Cronk-y-Voddy or undergrounding which if it was in any other Gaelic wires, perhaps, at Creg-ny-Baa. It is country, Ireland or Scotland. would be going to cost £.15,000, the equivalent to preserved and would be a tourist attrac- £15,000,000 to the British Government. tion. And also. in passing, sir, I think Now we must keep these things, I think, you ought to be pleased and gratified to
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. 1850 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970
know that such progress has been made regard to these matters over a number in housing. I am the product of a of years, and always he has considered thatched cottage, sir, and I am glad to Cregneish one of the great values of the say this. I hope that he has not con- Isle of Man, and the necessity for its sidered me the vermin or that rat in- preservation. In fact he has visions of festation to which he referred— making Cregneish, if he can persuade the people and Government of this Mr. Canister: You would not live in Island, to make it a museum living it now. showpiece by the complete removal of all that is foreign, and the restoration Mr. McFee: It is surprising what I of what lends itself of a unique Manx would live in if I had to, sir, but what village. I am seeking to impress upon you and upon the Court is this: that the progress Mr. Canister: Will you and the that has been made in housing, surely, Speaker live there? is worthy of preserving the contrast. It Mr. McFee: In the fullest sense . . . is only by contrasts that we can really You do not live in a museum — that is appreciate the progress that we have where you ought to be, I think, because made, whether it is cultural, museum or social, or any others, And so I would You think, you are thinking in the past. You want to grow up! (Laughter.) You say: do not despise this, but consider are thinking fifty years behind. Madame its preservation. Now with regard to the Tussauds you ought to be in (Laugh- hon. member from the Council, the think the Speaker is trying, in Chairman of the Finance Board, I do ter.) I this resolution to fulfil the pining of the not wish to defy the Governor's Budget, Manx poet to whom you have referred, nor do I wish to defy the Finance sir: " Whate'er is left of ancient heritage Board's recommendation for that for goodness' sake preserve it." Budget, but the Speaker's sentiments coincide very much with my own re- Mr. Callister: Heritage? garding the preservation of the valuable and irreplaceable heritage that we have Mr. McFee: Heritage, yes sir. Un- irrespective of Eureopean Conservation fortunately resolutions of this kind may Year or otherwise. As I do not wish to affect Budgets and priorities; the ques- upset the Budget decisions agreed by tion of culture versus expediency which both branches. I intend to move later— you often yourself refer to. You would and I would ask perhaps the Clerk of rather expediency perhaps to the pre- Tynwald to read my amendment—he servation of culture and those things holds it under my signature—and I will that would make a nation ? But the move, sir. an amendment. Now I am principle referred to is sound, even aware of the great interest Mr. Speaker forgetting the European Conservation has in all things Manx, whether it is Year and let us concentrate on our own the constitution, which he has always Island, If there is a weakness in the shown, culture, history, tradition, and resolution at all, sir, it is that it is based those parts of the Island where the last merely and contains a very, very good remnants of the visual evidence of the principle but it is still at principle stage. way of life led by our forefathers still It does not declare the full scheme to some degree exist. I also am satisfied and therefore he has to refer to the of his sincerity in a passionate desire first phase of a principle rather than for its preservation, and he has always the first phase of a prepared scheme. I in this desire considered Cregneish as would prefer the Museum by the sup- one of the priorities. 1 have had many port of Tynwald to consider and draft conversations with Mr. Speaker with out a scheme of preservation, modifica-
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1851
tion worthy of the best of the Manx that Governor on his Budget proposals and is within us, a master plan for Creg- the finance that has been provided. That neish. I know that this is the real desire is the reason why I am going to move. of Mr. Speaker. In this scheme there in a moment the amendment. should be amending legislation if neces- Members: Do it now ! sary. removing from the Planning Com- mittee from being the final arbiter in Mr. IVIcFee: I will do it now, sir. In its scenic preservation or layout or general —I will ask the Clerk to read only by agreement with the Trust. I it properly—that the amendment should say that not against the Planning Corn read after No. 1, " refer the matter to mittee iself, because although under the Manx Museum, the National Trust, present legislation the Planning Com- to prepare an overall scheme phased mittee can turn things down and pre- and planned after discussion with the serve what is left to us of ancient various Tynwald and other bodies who heritage, there are others who can may be involved and make recommen- oppose it for monetary gain who will dations to Tynwald including such fight it to appeal stage, and two per- scheme and that Tynwald instruct the sons who are responsible to no-one, no Finance Board to consider making electorate, no House, no authority, could available a sum of money needed for its upset the very desires of this Court and preparation." It has been prepared the people of the Manx nation. And properly and in proper form and I will therefore I make that suggestion. I ask formally that the Clerk may be apeal now for Tynwald and the people allowed, s.ir, to read the amendment. of the Island to launch an investigation The Clerk to Tynwald: For paragraph into the principle contained in the re- 2 substitute the following:— " Requests solution and ask that the Museum the Manx Museum and National Trust go ahead and present a full scheme em- to prepare an overall scheme phased bodying its visions and ideas. For in- and planned and in consultation with stance, do you as a Court. members of which such Boards of Tynwald and a Court, realise where the real village Government Departments as are con- of Cregneish is? cerned with the preservation of the said natural amenities. to submit such Mr. Bell: Colby? scheme to Tynwald with such recom- Mr. MeFee: I ask that in sincerity. mendations as are deemed necessary." Do you know where it is? —because I For paragraph 3 substitute the follow- could show you. It is under the Mull ing:— " Instructs the Finance Board to Hill. The Pictish houses are all there, but consider what sum of money will be no-one knows, no-one points them out. required to carry out the proposals there is not even a finger of indication. mentioned in the preceding paragraph and they are right under the brow of with a view to a financial motion being the altar where they worshipped and tabled in Tynwald as soon as possible." the burial ground in which they were Miss Thornton-Duesbery: I would like placed. If those were preserved and to second that. Your Excellency. brought back again and re-thatched as our Celtic-Gaelic forefathers lived this Sir Ralph Stevenson: I will not detain here truly would be an asset to tourism the Court very long, sir, but I would and to the Island's heritage. This I express my sympathy with the spirit commend to the Court, sir, that this is behind Mr. Speaker's resolution, but 1 a very serious resolution, I think it am not in favour of the first part of it should be amended. I do not believe in which deals with the undergrounding. challenging the Finance Board or the I understand. of cables from Cregneish
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. 1852 TY.NW.ALD COURT, JUNE 16, 197.0
to the south. When I was the chairman this. I am sure everybody in this hon. of the Electricity Board we went into Court who is well acquainted with this matter very carefully on behalf of Cregneish would hate to see any de- the company constructing the new light- spoilation of that area. But I think at house on the Calf. We then came to the this stage there is some principle also be- conclusion that it would be very expen- hind the amendment because we do not sive, possible but very expensive, to know what the whole scheme is going to underground cables from the brow of implement. It has been stated at the the hill at Cregneish down to the Sound present moment that is the under- itself. But if you try to take cables grounding of wires. Now I did visit under the Sound on the sea bed no Cregneish the other evening and I was manufacturer of cables, at that time amazed to see so many electricity wires anyhow, would guarantee the life of a festooning the village area. I would cable for more than a fortnight. The think we would like to have put before tides are se fierce and the rockiness of us a scheme that is going to tell us the sea bottom is so bad that they would exactly what the Museum does have in have been worn out in a fortnight. mind. I am amazed and shocked actually Therefore we came to the conclusion to listen to the speech made this evening that it was not much good under- — as it is getting on now — by the hon. grounding cables to the south of Creg- member for North Douglas. To me, I neish if you are going to have cables think the Isle of Man should be proud anyway over the Sound. of its Manx ancestors and what we have in the Manx Island. in reference Mr. McFee: Cables are not mentioned to Manx cottages. We, as the hon. mem- in this. ber of the Council has said, are very Sir Ralph Stevenson: Mr. Speaker proud of the progress we have made in talked about cables. the housing in the Isle of Man— Mr. McFee: He only talked about Mr. Callister: What about No. 4, them. Church Avenue, Onchan? Sir Ralph Stevenson: Because he regards them as being incongruous Mr. P. Radcliffe: Never mind No. 4, features. Well perhaps they are incon- Church Avenue, Onchan. I could tell gruous features, but what is not? There you the whole story behind 4, Church are lots of other incongruous features. Avenue, Onchan, if you want. I visited Anyway, cables should be underground the house. (Interruption.) We are get- as soon as and as far as possible, but I ting off the track, Your Excellency. I am in favour of the ideas of the member think that there is something behind for East Douglas in that the first priority this resolution this afternoon that wants should be for the supply of current for further investigation. I certainly would people who need it. hate to see Cregneish despoiled any more than what it is, and I would cer- Mr. Bolton: Your Excellency, may I tainly, from a planning point of view, say, sir, that on the question of the appreciate the support of this commit- amendment, the Finance Board has con- tee on a directive from this hon. Court sidered this matter and could not con- to the Planning Committee that any cur in the amendment being moved in further suggestion of development in view of the fact that it is undoubtedly that area should be restricted. We have a financial resolution. had applications for development in the Mr. P. Radcliffe:' Your Excellency, I area which we have turned down flat. would like to rise at this stage to sup- It is purely that we at the present time, port in principle the general idea behind as a planning committee, support the
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT. JUNE 16, 1970 1853
idea that is should be retained. Although and the little Manx community. and this today I will vote against the resolution is being done in fact, and I understood that is on this agenda principally be- that there was certain sterilisation in cause we have accepted our Budget and that area. I :believe the Planning this therefore is going outside the esti- Committee would be very reluctant mate of the budget. But I certainly to allow certain developments to take would think that the Museum Trust place in that area. This, purely re- should bring forward a suggestion of moves. speaks of removing incongruous how they visualise Cregneish in the features and this could include some of future could be retained. the existing cottages. It is a question of how you interpret it. Mr. Nivison: The amendment, in my Mr. McFee: Why not? view, is completely unnecessary. Mr Nivison: Well you might object to The Governor: I rule it out of order. this. In some people's opinion it might It is out of order because it contains an include the removal of some of the instruction to the Finance Board, and existing buildings, although many of us therefore, unless the Finance Board would like to see some at least of those agree with its submission to the Court preserving. I think the Court would be — which they have not agreed with well advised to turn this down with a is out of order. view to the fact that the Museum and National Trust can come to the Court Mr. Nivison: Your Excellency, I on some future occasion for planning would like to speak. if I may, on of the whole area, but not to come for- the resolution. Much has been said ward with votes like this which in turn about the preservation of Cregneish and mean the spending of something greatly so forth. I believe that that is absolutely in excess of £15.000 for the removal of unnecessary to say all this. This resolu- those poles. tion had nothing to do with that. This was with regard to the removal of cer- Members: Vote: tain cables from Cregneish to the south. The Governor: Mr. Speaker. We would all like to see that We would like to see a lot of these overhead The Speaker: Your Excellency, I. do poles removed from many areas. It not know really how 1 can assess what was most interesting to hear my friend I feel about the reaction to the resolu- the hon. member of the Council, Mr. tion. Perhaps it is a sense of frustration Corkhill, remarking that in one resolu- based on the fact that so much lip ser- tion this morning we. spoke about erect- vice is paid in this House, or in this ing more poles where there is already Court, to the acceptance of principles a considerable number of poles. but that no positive action is taken to imple- on this occasion to put a flag on them ment that particular lip service. We on one day of the year. But this resolu- have had the hon. member of the Coun- tion is purely to remove poles which are cil saying the whole Court supports the carrying wires and putting them under- principle. Does it? The whole Court ground. I believe myself that it would supported the principle on the Museum be wrong of us to spring forward things estimates. Yes. The Finance Board ex- of this kind. The Museum and National tracted it from the provisions of the Trust can at any time come forward to Budget. Now, fair enough, I am not the Court. as they can at estimate times, arguing that. But if the Court supports with suggestions as to the preservation. the principle it will support the resolu- I think the whole of the Court supports tion. Now the speeches that have been generally the preservation of this area, made have principally been in opposi-
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. 1854 TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 197,0
tion to the resolution, and are all on the what authority is doing anything about grounds — if you look at them — that something else could be done with the these things in connection with Govern- ment. He also said you would not dream money. of preserving this sort of set-up else- where. Your Excellency, far from Mr. Irving: Not mine. dreaming of preserving this sort of set- up elsewhere, the intention with other The Speaker: We have had . . Oh governments is to create it if they have yes, yours. Yours was the leading one, not got is. Bunratty Castle was men- sir. Undergrounding to consumers, you tioned, and all around the grounds of said, was the important thing. Under- Bunratty they have built a new village grounding to consumers. Your Excel- in old style with the sod floors or soil lency, Mr. Irving's point here, an im- floors. with the little attic---I do not portant one, was a feature which must know whether they had twelve children be borne in mind. Now undergrounding or not. But, Your Excellency, they tried to consumers was a point on which the to preserve what they have and en- chairman of the Electricity Board has hance the value of it. I agree with the spoken. He showed the progress that hon. member for Council, Mr, Bolton, has been made in connection with elec- that perhaps this is not to be taken in tricity supplies, but he and previous isolation. It was in fact put in as a chairmen have indicated in the past just Museum vote. But let me tell you, al- what the cost of undergrounding to con- though you put forward an Act in 1951, sumers is likely to be, and how this those of you who are here who put, or Court would never face it. So under- rather which put responsibility on the grounding to consumers is a non-starter National Trust for doing certain things —it is a good get-out. Then we have in the Isle of Man, all the money they the hon. member who spoke of farm have had since 1951 to date has been entrances being improved. Well now he the £1,000 spoken of today by the hon. is on the Board of Agriculture, perhaps chairman of the Finance Board and they he may get the money with which to have not got that yet. If that is a improve the farm entrances of the generous attitude on the Government's future and make them so attractive, part—well. examine it for yourselves. and pay for the paint. Now, Your Excel- Wires at Cronk-y-Voddy, said the chair- lency, the very fact, you know, Mr. man of Finance Board, let us under- Callister, the hon. member for North ground them first. This is the hon. Douglas, quoted this despoiled area. Yes. gentleman who would not even give it is a despoiled area and that is why piped water to Cronk-y-Voddy, let alone the Museum are so really anxious to do underground the wires. something about it. He said there are many ways of preserving a heritage. Mr. Bell: Will not give it to his own There are, but regrettably in this par- family! (Laughter.) . ticular Court there is little interest in any one of them, because if you can tell The Speaker: Now, Your -Excellency, me what they are and where they are we had it coming out then clearly as to taking place I will be the first one to be what the Finance Board requires—con- astounded. You can go round the Isle of tributions from good and interested Man, you can go to Niarbyl, you can people. I can tell you now that if it was go to other beauty spots, and you will not for the contributions from these see evidence of our inability to cope good people to whom he referred, the with the situation that confronts us, and work of the Museum would be in a an inability to take action to deal with dismal state indeed. because it is only the instances of decay. Naw you tell me because of the contributions from the
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected. TYNWALD COURT, JUNE 16, 1970 1855
Friends of the Museum and other or- Callister, Bell, Irving, Burke and ganisations that it has been able to do Devereau — 7. any real work at all. Now, Sir Ralph, I The Speaker: Your Excellency, the think was under a misapprehension resolution carries in the House of Keys, here, and I still seek his support on this 12 votes being cast in favour and 7 because cables over the Sound or under votes against. the Sound do not enter into this propo- In the Council— sition. The lighthouse is up, the system For: The Lord Bishop, the Attorney- is in operation, there are no cables. General, Messrs. McFee and Rad- That was beaten at the time. Now, Your cliffe — 4. Excellency, I think that Mr. McFee really put his finger on this one. Tyn- Against: Messrs. Bolton, Corkhill, wald has to accept responsibility here. Nicholls, Nivison and Sir Ralph European Conservation Year or not, Stevenson — 5. you have got to do something about the The Governor: Four in favour and preservation of those areas that mean five against, so Fart 1 fails. Paragraph so much to us and those small items. 2, those in favour please say aye, those The thatched cottages in Bride which against say no. look so wonderful when you pass them, A division was called for and voting and everybody says, oh, aren't they resulted as follows:— beautiful, until suddenly somebody dies, the cottage is empty and overnight In the Keys— it is gone. You cannot bring it back. But For: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, Miss nobody will act, and nobody will pro- Thornton-Duesbery, Messrs. Crel- vide the money for action, and this is lin, MacDonald, Hislop and the why I appeal to the Court today to give • Speaker —7. this application sympathetic considera- Against: Messrs. Crowe, Kerruish, tion. Itis not. I ;believe, a wild one in Radcliffe, Spittall, Vereker, Callis- any way. It is particularly suitable to ter, Bell, Irving, Burke, Kneale, the European Conservation Year pro- Devereau and Sir Henry Sugden - gramme with which we have not asso- 12. ciated ourselves as a Government to date. Consequently. Your Excellency, I The Speaker: Your Excellency, the leave the matter in the hands of the resolution fails in the House of Keys, House, hoping it wilt be given unani- seven votes being cast in favour and mous support. twelve votes against, sir. In the Council— The Governor: I shall put the ques- For: The Lord Bishop and Mr. McFee tion in three parts. Paragraph 1, those in favour please say aye, those against say no. Against: The Attorney-General, Messrs. Bolton, Corkhill, Nicholls, A division was called for and voting Nivison, Radcliffe and Sir Ralph resulted as follows:— Stevenson —7. In the Keys— The Governor: Seven against and two in favour. That part fails, and part For: Messrs. Anderson, MacLeod, 3 does not now arise and I shall not Radcliffe. Miss Thornton-Duesbery, have to dynamite the Finance Board. Messrs. Spittall, 'Crellin, Vereker, Hon. members, that concludes our Kneale, MacDonald, Sir Henry Sug- agenda. The Council will now withdraw den, Mr. Hislop and the Speaker — and leave the Keys to such business as 12. Mr. Speaker may have to put before Against: Messrs. Crowe. Kerruish. you.
Proposal re Conservation at Cregneish—Rejected.