01076208 E1/276.1
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Β₣ðĄеĕНеĄŪņй⅜ŵřеĠР₣ Trial Chamber Chambre de première instance
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS PUBLIC Case File Nº 002/19-09-2007-ECCC/TC
12 March 2015 Trial Day 257
Before the Judges: NIL Nonn, Presiding YA Sokhan Claudia FENZ The Accused: NUON Chea Jean-Marc LAVERGNE KHIEU Samphan YOU Ottara Martin KAROPKIN (Reserve) THOU Mony (Reserve) Lawyers for the Accused: Victor KOPPE SON Arun Trial Chamber Greffiers/Legal Officers: KONG Sam Onn SE Kolvuthy Arthur VERCKEN Robynne CROFT
For the Office of the Co-Prosecutors: Lawyers for the Civil Parties: Nicolas KOUMJIAN Marie GUIRAUD SENG Bunkheang LOR Chunthy SREA Rattanak CHET Vanly SONG Chorvoin VEN Pov Vincent de Wilde d’Estmael Dale Lysak
For Court Management Section: UCH Arun
01076209 E1/276.1 Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia Trial Chamber – Trial Day 257 Case No. 002/19-09-2007-ECCC/TC 12/03/2015
I N D E X
MR. NEANG OUCH ALIAS TA SAN (2-TCW-803)
Questioning by Mr. Vercken ...... page 2
Questioning by Mr. Kong Sam Onn ...... page 12
MR. NUT NOUV (2-TCW-948)
Questioning by The President ...... page 28
Questioning by Ms. Srea Rattanak ...... page 36
Questioning by Mr. de Wilde d’Estmael…… ...... page 45
Page i 01076210 E1/276.1 Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia Trial Chamber – Trial Day 257 Case No. 002/19-09-2007-ECCC/TC 12/03/2015
List of Speakers:
Language used unless specified otherwise in the transcript
Speaker Language
MR. DE WILDE D’ESTMAEL French
JUDGE FENZ English
MS. GUIRAUD French
MR. KONG SAM ONN Khmer
MR. KOPPE English
MR. NEANG OUCH (2-TCW-803) Khmer
THE PRESIDENT (NIL NONN, Presiding) Khmer
MR. NUT NOV (2-TCW-948) Khmer
MS. SREA RATTANAK Khmer
MR. VERCKEN French
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1 PROCEEDINGS
2 (Court opens at 0902H)
3 MR. PRESIDENT:
4 Please be seated. The Court is now in session.
5 This morning, the Chamber will continue to hear the remainder
6 testimony of the witness, Neang Ouch. And we will then continue
7 to hear the testimony of another witness -- that is, 2-TCW-948.
8 And Ms. Chea Sivhoang, could you report the attendance of the
9 Parties and individuals to today's proceedings?
10 THE GREFFIER:
11 Mr. President, for today's proceedings, all Parties to this case
12 are present. The Accused Nuon Chea is present in the holding cell
13 downstairs, as he requests to waive his right to be present in
14 the courtroom. His waiver has been delivered to the Greffier. The
15 witness who is to conclude his testimony today -- that is, Mr.
16 Neang Ouch, and his duty counsel, Moeurn Sovann, are present in
17 the courtroom. A reserve witness, 2-TCW-948, is here and his duty
18 counsel is the same one -- that is, Mr. Moeurn Sovann.
19 [09.04.11]
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 Thank you, Ms. Chea Sivhoang. And before the Chamber hands the
22 floor to the Defence, we will decide now on the request by Nuon
23 Chea. The Chamber has received a waiver from Nuon Chea, dated 12
24 March 2015. He confirms that he has headache, dizziness, and
25 cannot sit for long, and in order to effectively participate in
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2
1 the future hearings, he requests to waive his right to
2 participate in and be present at the 12 March 2015 hearing. He
3 has been informed by his counsel about the consequences of this
4 waiver, that in no way it can be construed as a waiver of his
5 rights to be tried fairly, or to challenge evidence presented or
6 admitted to this Court at any time during this trial.
7 Having seen the medical report of the Accused, Nuon Chea, by the
8 duty doctor for the Accused at the ECCC, dated 12 March 2015, who
9 notes that the health condition of Nuon Chea is that he has a
10 severe back pain, and he feels dizziness when seated for long,
11 and recommends that the Chamber so grant him his request, so that
12 he can follow the proceedings remotely from a holding cell
13 downstairs. Based on the above information, and pursuant to Rule
14 81.5, the Chamber grants Nuon Chea's request to follow the
15 proceedings remotely from a holding cell downstairs via an
16 audio-visual means for today's proceedings, as he waives his
17 direct presence in the courtroom.
18 [09.05.58]
19 The AV unit is instructed to link the proceedings to the room
20 downstairs, so that Nuon Chea can participate in and follow
21 today's proceedings remotely.
22 I'd like now to hand the floor to Khieu Samphan's defence to put
23 questions to witness, Neang Ouch.
24 QUESTIONING BY MR. VERCKEN:
25 Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Witness.
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1 Q. I have a few questions to put to you. It will therefore be
2 very brief. The questions are follow-up questions, questions for
3 purposes of clarification. The first of these questions has to do
4 with your contacts with Ta Ran. I would like you to re-state what
5 you said yesterday, because I believe there was a problem of
6 interpretation. Tell us the distance from your home to where Ta
7 Ran resided?
8 [09.07.17]
9 MR. NEANG OUCH:
10 A. The distance from my house to Ta Ran's house is about six
11 kilometres.
12 Q. You stated that whenever you needed to take instructions from
13 Ta Ran, you would cover the six kilometres on a motorbike. Is
14 that correct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct. I used a motorcycle, and it took me
16 between five to ten minutes.
17 Q. Could you please specify the nature of the decisions that had
18 to be taken in order that you decide to cover those six
19 kilometres on your motorbike, in order to go and take
20 instructions from Ta Ran? Were the decisions so important that
21 you had to take the decision to move immediately to Ta Ran's
22 place on your motorbike?
23 A. I already responded to this question. And there were a number
24 of documents that were presented. In those documents, the
25 decisions were made by Ta Ran, on those people in question. When
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1 there were reports from other -- from the base, then I would
2 immediately go to his place for his decisions.
3 [09.09.29]
4 Q. Should I take it therefore from your answer that, as a matter
5 of fact, there was no particularly important reason why you would
6 decide to go to Ta Ran's home? Any kind of decision was enough.
7 Any kind of decision taken by Ta Ran was enough for you to be
8 able to decide to go to meet him. Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that is the case.
10 Q. You also stated in the preceding days that when you arrived at
11 Ta Ran's place and met with him, you would give him your report
12 and he would then give you instructions. And you would return
13 with those instructions. Did that process last long? You would go
14 to Ta Ran, you would present the decision that he had to take. It
15 would take him some time to take that decision. Did he take that
16 decision immediately? Or it took him quite some time to take the
17 decision, for you to return to your home?
18 [09.11.11]
19 A. He would consider the matters for a few hours, and then he
20 made his decision. And I would dictate that decision.
21 Q. You stated, and you've just confirmed, that Ta Ran worked at
22 the level of the region, and he supervised Tram Kak district. As
23 part of the process you have just described, to your knowledge,
24 was that kind of organization at the level of the districts
25 something that existed elsewhere, and not only in Tram Kak?
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1 [09.12.07]
2 A. Tram Kak district was different from other districts, as Tram
3 Kak district was close to the sector. Because the provincial town
4 was also part of Tram Kak district, and the same thing applies to
5 Kandal province in the current scenario, that Kandal province is
6 very close to Phnom Penh. So, he went there because Tram Kak
7 district was just closer, adjacent to the Takeo provincial town.
8 As for other districts, decisions would be made by the district
9 committees respectively. Except the Tram Kak district, he would
10 come down and he would make his own decisions.
11 Q. Did you know the reasons why such an organization was put in
12 place, particularly in Tram Kak?
13 A. I did not grasp this matter, as it was a matter decided by the
14 upper level.
15 [09.13.44]
16 Q. When we read reports that you have acknowledged to having
17 authored, why do you express yourself in the first person
18 singular, and you sign the documents in your own hand, without
19 indicating that the orders that you distributed came from Ta Ran?
20 A. I did not know about his methodology. However, I was
21 instructed by him to write down his decision, and after -- after
22 I considered what happened, it was apparent that there could be a
23 trial like what is going on today. Because he didn't want him
24 himself to be in -- in trouble, and it was me who would be in
25 trouble, because it was my handwriting.
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1 Q. But did Ta Ran ask you to write those reports in the first
2 person singular? When you wrote those instructions, you were
3 instructed to draft those documents as if you were the author, as
4 if you were the one who issued those orders personally. Was that
5 the case?
6 A. He instructed me to dictate his words. I did exactly what I
7 was told by him.
8 Q. And in that case, why did you sign in your own hand, without
9 allowing Ta Ran himself to sign the documents?
10 A. As I already stated, he instructed me to write his words, and
11 he instructed me to sign my own name. I did not know what was
12 behind his idea.
13 [09.16.44]
14 Q. Regarding the persons to whom those orders were addressed at
15 the level of the district, did those persons know that those
16 instructions were from Ta Ran?
17 A. Yes, within the district, they knew that the orders came from
18 Ta Ran, because I always told them that I had to go and see Ta
19 Ran first.
20 Q. Up until what date did that system obtain -- that is, the
21 system of going to and fro at the level of the sector? For how
22 long was that in place?
23 A. I continued doing that until the day the Vietnamese troops
24 invaded Cambodia.
25 [09.18.17]
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1 Q. That is up to the 6th of January, 1979? Is that exact?
2 A. No, not up to the 6th January, because by the 7th of January
3 Vietnamese troops reached Phnom Penh. By the time the Vietnamese
4 were at the outskirts of Takeo province, we withdrew ourselves.
5 So we were fleeing when the Vietnamese troops were entering
6 Cambodia, and I cannot recall the exact date when we retreated.
7 Along the Vietnamese-Cambodian border -- that is, at Takeo
8 province, there had been ongoing fighting. By the time the
9 Vietnamese troops were approaching the province, then we withdrew
10 ourselves. It's likely that the event took place in late December
11 1978.
12 Q. So, you mean up to the -- up to late December 1978, you
13 continued going to seek orders from Ta Ran. Is that the case?
14 A. Yes. I had to seek his advice and instructions as to where we
15 had to go.
16 Q. I am talking of you going to seek instructions. Did you
17 continue going to seek instructions from Ta Ran up to late
18 December 1978?
19 A. I went to see him until late 1978, and by late 1978, the
20 instructions from him was for us to withdraw from our area --
21 that is, for our personal security reasons, and head toward the
22 Thai-Cambodia border.
23 Q. Very well. I thank you. I'll go into another line of
24 questioning. I would like you to tell us whether you can be more
25 precise and specific when you talk of Mr. Pech Chim. When you
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1 answered questions put to you by Judge Lavergne, the day before
2 yesterday, the 10th of March 2015, after 15.03.29, you stated
3 that you knew Pech Chim prior to 1970, because his village was
4 very close to that of your wife, and you said that he was never
5 your assistant. I would like you to clarify this matter. It has
6 to do with the position of the chief of the Tram Kak district,
7 which Pech Chim may have occupied. Do you know about that? And if
8 yes, up to when did Pech Chim occupy that position?
9 [09.22.53]
10 A. In 1970, Pech Chim was in Tram Kak district. However, it was
11 Khom who was the district secretary, and Khom was the first
12 daughter of Ta Mok. And I did not know which position Pech Chim
13 held at the time. And the district secretary at that time was a
14 woman -- that is, the first daughter of Ta Mok, her name, Khom.
15 [09.23.44]
16 Q. And do you know the position of Pech Chim after the 17th of
17 April 1975?
18 A. After April 1975, Democratic Kampuchea appointed him to the
19 rubber plantation in the area called Chamkar Andoung. And I
20 believe it is located in Kampong Cham province. I only knew that
21 he was appointed to go there, to the Chamkar Andoung rubber
22 plantation, but I did not know the position he held over there.
23 Q. Do you know whether after April 1975, regardless of the
24 period, Pech Chim was district head anywhere?
25 A. After 17 April 1975, I did not know whether Pech Chim worked
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1 at the district level. I simply knew that Angkar transferred him
2 to Chamkar Andoung rubber plantation.
3 Q. Very well. I will go to another line of questioning, and that
4 will be my last line of questioning. I would like to revisit an
5 answer you gave on the 28th of January 2014, when you testified.
6 That is, the first record of your interview, E319.1.15, and we're
7 talking of questions 88 and 89. The investigator put the
8 following question, and I quote: "Were you startled to hear that,
9 after the fall of Democratic Kampuchea in 1979, the Khmer Rouge
10 leaders fled to the Thai border, and to hear information that
11 approximately two million people had been killed?" This was the
12 answer you gave in answer to that question, and I quote: "I never
13 heard any such news. However, I do know that some people died
14 while fleeing the Yuon, some dying of starvation, and some being
15 shot dead by the Yuon."
16 [09.27.08]
17 The investigator responds by saying: "Documentary films and
18 records show that approximately two million people died during
19 the Khmer Rouge regime. So do you still believe that no one died
20 during the Khmer Rouge period, and there was just those who were
21 killed while fleeing from the Yuon?" And you answered by saying:
22 "There was so many. Many youths died during the fighting with Lon
23 Nol and during the American bombing of Cambodia. Many died, and
24 their bodies were buried. When I went to the sites where some
25 youths were buried, I could not find them. I do not know where
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1 they were taken after being excavated."
2 My question is on your last sentence, which is that the bodies of
3 some youths were excavated and taken somewhere else. Can you
4 explain what you meant when you referred to this? When you talked
5 about the relocation of bodies?
6 [09.28.18]
7 A. During the wartime between the Democratic Kampuchea force and
8 the Lon Nol force, the DK combatants' casualties were a lot, and
9 their bodies were buried at a burial site called Vi Mean
10 (phonetic) and like in Ang Andaet (phonetic), it was at Tboung
11 Khpos (phonetic). The Vi Mean (phonetic) Sorpp (phonetic) or the
12 burial site in Tram Kak, was at the Angk Roka. And the burial
13 sites were at other places, namely at Doung Khpos. However, the
14 sites had been transformed into a housing residence. At Angk
15 Roka, the same thing happened. The burial sites, or the pits or
16 the tombs, were transformed into a health centre, a hospital,
17 etc. That was the reason that I stated what you just read out.
18 Q. And why would you provide this detail at that moment when the
19 investigators questioned you? Why was the -- the investigators
20 had already questioned you on your knowledge of the number of
21 victims of the Democratic Kampuchea regime. So, why is it then
22 specifically that you explain that bodies were moved? What was
23 the meaning of your answer here? Why did you provide that detail
24 at that specific moment?
25 [09.30.45]
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1 A. The number of casualties during the DK period was not
2 officially announced on the radio, or there was such concrete
3 information besides the fact that we only knew the number at the
4 location that we stayed or lived. And during the time that I was
5 fleeing from the Vietnamese invasion, I saw dead bodies of
6 ordinary people who were fleeing, and also I saw the burial site
7 for the DK combatants, namely in Angk Roka. So, I did not know
8 how those bodies disappeared. Maybe the bodies were exhumed by
9 the relatives for ceremony.
10 And let me clarify that what I stated was -- happened during the
11 time after the reintegration of the DK forces with the
12 government, and that happened around 1999 or 2000. As I was
13 passing through Angk Roka to Kaoh Andaet, and there was a passage
14 that I was crossing to the south of that area, the mountain, and
15 then I came across that burial site of the former combatants.
16 [09.32.46]
17 Q. Yesterday, when you were answering the questions put to you by
18 my colleague, Victor Koppe, you said that you did not wish to
19 answer any further questions regarding Vietnam in order to ensure
20 your safety. So, can you -- I'd like to know if you would be
21 willing to answer more questions regarding this, regarding
22 Vietnam, if we held an in camera hearing?
23 A. I do not want to give response in relation to the matter
24 raised by you, for my security and safety. In Pailin area, where
25 I am living, there are many Vietnamese there. So I am afraid, and
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1 there are also Vietnamese in Samlout area. Although the Chamber
2 is granting in camera hearings, I believe I am not able to speak
3 about it. I am afraid of speaking in relation to this matter.
4 MR. VERCKEN:
5 I have no further questions. Thank you very much, Mr. President.
6 MR. PRESIDENT:
7 Thank you. You may proceed, Mr. Kong Sam Onn -- Counsel Kong Sam
8 Onn.
9 QUESTIONING BY MR. KONG SAM ONN:
10 Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone in and around
11 the courtroom. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
12 [09.34.56]
13 Q. I would like to backtrack to the period in the 1970s in
14 relation to your testimony yesterday and the day before
15 yesterday. You said you were a member of the Front. What were
16 your roles as a member of the Front?
17 MR. NEANG OUCH:
18 A. As part of the Front, I am tasked with propaganda. I am
19 appealing -- I was to appeal to people to follow the Front, and
20 as we may be aware, Samdech Euv was the head of the Front at that
21 time.
22 Q. Thank you. Were you aware of the mission of the Front?
23 A. The United Front of Kampuchea was to struggle and -- was to
24 struggle against Lon Nol period. The Front was to bring Samdech
25 Euv back into the country.
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1 [09.36.43]
2 Q. Could you inform the Court what was the difference between the
3 Front and the Party of Democratic Kampuchea?
4 A. I did not know the difference between the CPK and the Front,
5 but initially in 1970, after the coup, the United Front of
6 Kampuchea was established. And later on I heard that CPK existed,
7 and as for the difference concerning the policies of the two, I
8 did not know. I was not aware of it. I first learnt that the
9 United Front of Kampuchea was first established, followed by the
10 CPK.
11 Q. Thank you very much. In your district, were there any
12 difference in relation to the structure of the Front and that of
13 the CPK?
14 A. I did not fully know about this matter. However, as I said, I
15 am assigned to propagandize, to appeal to people to join the
16 United Front of Kampuchea. And as for the structure in detail, I
17 did not know. I did not know the difference between the two.
18 Later on I was removed by Ta Sy (phonetic), as I stated earlier.
19 Q. You -- were you aware when the United Front of Kampuchea
20 disappeared?
21 A. I did not know when the United Front of Kampuchea ended. As I
22 said, I fell sick for six months after my return.
23 [09.39.55]
24 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to discuss with you in
25 relation to your roles. You said that you were a secretary for
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1 two districts, and you stated also that you never became a
2 district secretary. I would like to know in relation to your work
3 as a secretary, whom did you work with?
4 A. You asked me about my role as a secretary -- as an assistant
5 in two districts. In Kaoh Andaet, I helped the work of Ta Sieng
6 and Ta Chan. Ta Sieng and Ta Chan, when they ordered me to go to
7 the fields and work sites, I would follow his orders. So, as I
8 said, I would follow their orders. In Tram Kak district, when I
9 was an assistant, I was asked to help Ta Kit and Ta Chay. These
10 two individuals assigned me to dig the canal, to work in the
11 worksites, in the fields, so I followed their instructions. I was
12 asked to help them in those worksites.
13 [09.41.54]
14 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to hear in detail concerning
15 the work that you assisted at that time. Compared to other cadres
16 with the same function and roles, whom did you work with? Could
17 you elaborate on this matter?
18 A. At the worksite, when I was assigned to dig the canal and
19 build dams and dikes, there were chiefs of mobile units for males
20 and females. So, I coordinate the work with the chiefs of mobile
21 units in the communes. We discussed how the work should be
22 carried out, and we discussed the canal should be built from Wat
23 Tuol Sangkae (phonetic) to Trapeang Andaek (phonetic). And we
24 discussed which canal to be built first, and which canals to be
25 built later on. And after that, our forces were divided. We also
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1 discussed about the measurement of the canals. I discussed this
2 work plan with those people.
3 Q. Thank you very much. You mentioned that you coordinated the
4 work with the heads of the mobile units and also heads of the
5 communes. In terms of the coordination of the work, were you and
6 the other cadres in the same rank when you discussed about the
7 matters?
8 A. In the meetings we had discussions. I did not really
9 understand your question. Actually, we had discussions about the
10 soil, which soil was easy to dig and which soil was not easy to
11 dig. We discussed the matters collectively. And we were not there
12 -- we were there and we were in the same rank. And we discussed
13 which village to be -- which canal to be built was in which
14 villages.
15 [09.45.02]
16 Q. Thank you very much. In the practical work in, for example, in
17 one particular village where the soil was easy to dig, so what
18 was the discussion, and what was the decision of the attendants
19 in the meeting when they encountered the soils which were not
20 easy to dig?
21 A. Actually, I never made any other decisions. We, in the
22 meetings, we made collective decisions, and we decided which
23 village to go first -- which village we needed to dig first, and
24 which villages we needed to dig later on. So, there wasn't --
25 there was no disputes in the discussion and in the meetings.
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1 [09.46.06]
2 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell the Court who presided
3 over the meetings at that time?
4 A. The heads of mobile units were invited to be in the meetings,
5 and I was also in attendance. So, I was one among the other
6 attendants, and I wasn't -- I was not assigned to preside over
7 the meetings. As I said, the mobile units, the heads of mobile
8 units, were invited to the meeting. Although, when I was absent,
9 the meeting could also go ahead. So my presence was not necessary
10 on some occasions.
11 [09.47.28]
12 For instance in relation to the canal from Phlov Louk to the west
13 of Tuol Sangkae (phonetic) the canal was about 20 kilometers
14 long. So I failed to attend a meeting at that day and I returned
15 to my residence. And as I said, when I was not present the
16 meeting could also go ahead. And if I was there, I was just to
17 sit and listen to the discussion on some other occasions.
18 Q. Thank you very much. Could you tell the Chamber how much time
19 you were assigned to work in the worksites?
20 A. For one day I spent my time working from morning until the
21 afternoon and I had lunch with members of mobile units at Boeng
22 Angkor Borei and Boeng Preaek Phtoul Tong Leu (phonetic) I stayed
23 at that place for months.
24 Q. In relation to the head of the mobile units or the head of
25 other units, did they need to seek permission when they wanted to
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1 be off from work?
2 A. What do you mean by saying when they wanted to be off from
3 work? Because the workload and the working hours were clear for
4 all of us. We worked from 7.00 to 11.00 and from 1.00 to 5.00, so
5 the working hours were indicated clearly for all of us.
6 Q. Thank you very much. I would like to discuss about the working
7 times of the head of the mobile units and the head of the
8 communes. When they were sick, when they had other duties, who
9 did they seek permission from?
10 [09.50.29]
11 A. Actually when they were sick we could see that they were sick
12 and they could take rest at that place, or perhaps the sick
13 people would be sent to the clinics, so they did not need to seek
14 any permission.
15 Q. In relation to the organisation or management of the commune,
16 as an assistant, what was your relation with other heads of the
17 commune or the districts?
18 [09.51.31]
19 A. I do not really understand the gist of your question.
20 Q. You stated many times already that you were an assistant to
21 the districts. As an assistant did you have any relation with the
22 commune committees in your district?
23 A. I had work relations with the commune committees. For example
24 when Ta Chay and Ta Kit asked me to meet with a certain commune
25 committee, I would go and meet and relay the messages from Ta
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18
1 Chay and Ta Kit, so this was the work relation of me and other
2 commune heads.
3 Q. Could you tell the Court what kind of work did you have the
4 relation with those commune heads?
5 (Short pause)
6 [09.53.22]
7 A. Once again, concerning the tasks to be performed at worksites,
8 concerning the economic matters in the worksites, and also in
9 relation to the food supplies when the district needed food
10 supplies for members of the mobile units in the districts, and
11 they needed to inform the communes how much food supplies the
12 district needed, so they need to -- we needed to have work
13 relations in these matters.
14 Q. What about the security matter? Did you have any work
15 relations concerning the security matter?
16 [09.54.30]
17 A. I want to discuss with my duty counsel first.
18 MR. KONG SAM ONN:
19 You may proceed.
20 (Short pause.)
21 [09.55.49]
22 MR. PRESIDENT:
23 Witness, please answer -- give your answer.
24 MR. NEANG OUCH:
25 A. As for security matters the mobile unit in the district and
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19
1 the communes they had work relations with each other in relation
2 to the security.
3 BY KONG SAM ONN:
4 Q. So did the militiamen -- the militia units in communes contact
5 the militiamen units in the district directly?
6 A. Concerning this matter I did not have any work relations, or I
7 did not contact the militiamen units in the commune or in the
8 district.
9 [09.57.03]
10 Q. So who would coordinate the work of militiamen units with you?
11 A. The communes would contact me, Ta Chay and Ta Kit. And after
12 that Ta Chay and Ta Kit would give me the reports of the
13 militiamen units and I would send the reports to Ta Ran.
14 Q. I would like to clarify this matter. In relation to the
15 security, you contacted communes in relation to security matters,
16 and after that you would relay any information to Ta Kit and Ta
17 Ran - is that correct?
18 [09.58.19]
19 A. On security, as I said, the commune would report the security
20 matter to Ta Kit and Ta Chay and after that I was told to relay
21 all the information to Ta Ran. Ta Ran was not so well at that
22 time and Ta Chay was quite rather old and he was living in
23 Chamkar Sieng (phonetic) at Damrei Romeal mountain. From Chamkar
24 Sieng (phonetic) to Takeo it was about 30 kilometers away from
25 each other, so I was staying close to Ta Ran and I would relay
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20
1 all the information from Ta Kit and Ta Chay to Ta Ran.
2 Q. When the information concerning the security -- rather the
3 information concerning the security would be sent to Ta Kit and
4 Ta Chay, and after that there would be a decision from Ta Kit and
5 Ta Chay and you would also receive information from Ta Kit and Ta
6 Chay, and after that you would send the information and any
7 report back to the commune, is that correct?
8 A. No, that's not correct. I already stated that Kit was not
9 well, and Chay was far. After they received the information, then
10 they instructed me to report the matter to Ta Ran and whatever
11 decision was made by Ta Ran, he instructed me to dictate it.
12 Q. Thank you. Regarding the implementation of the order or the
13 decision, did you have any report or information on the
14 implementation of the order or the instruction from Ta Ran?
15 A. I received the orders from Ta Ran on all those decisions on
16 the matters.
17 Q. Yes, we got it that you received the orders. However the point
18 is -- I put to you is on the implementation of those orders or
19 decisions. Were there any measures or methodology on the
20 monitoring of the implementation of those orders or instructions?
21 A. Personally I did not monitor the implementation of the
22 decisions.
23 [10.02.22]
24 Q. On the issue of the economics, which you stated was part of
25 your duty, that you had to deal with this matter with the
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21
1 communes, can you tell the Court what involved the economic
2 matter that you had to deal with at commune level?
3 A. The economic matters that I had to deal with the communes was
4 that I was acting as a spokesperson for Ta Kit or Ta Chay to the
5 communes, to the mobile units. For instance on the need of the
6 food supply for a certain commune or a certain mobile unit, and
7 whether they needed additional meat or additional vegetables. And
8 then the commune would implement it and would supplement the
9 needed supplies. And that's how we dealt with the economic
10 issues.
11 Q. Was there a request crossing from one commune to another? For
12 instance, if a commune needed certain equipment or tools then
13 they submit a certain request to you, and then there was
14 coordination amongst the commune level to fulfil the need of a
15 requested commune?
16 [10.04.41]
17 A. I did not encounter this experience that a commune requested
18 another commune to assist in the economical matter. It did not
19 happen that way. When a commune needed certain things, then they
20 would submit a request to Ta Kit and Ta Chay.
21 Q. And for you personally did you ever receive or make a decision
22 on this kind of request?
23 A. No.
24 [10.05.52]
25 Q. Also on the issues at the commune level and in the economic
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22
1 matter, did the district have any measures for the commune to
2 implement certain things regarding the economic issues?
3 A. On the economic matters, during each meeting chaired by Ta Kit
4 or Ta Chay, he kept advising the communes to deal with the
5 economic matter effectively and efficiently and to increase the
6 agricultural production. And if the rice production was not
7 sufficient they had to supplement it by engaging in plantations
8 along the base of the mountains. There was such a work plan which
9 was raised and presented during the meetings held at the district
10 level.
11 Q. In your position as a district assistant, did you receive a
12 request, or whether your district receive a request for food
13 supply supplements from any unit, or any mobile unit, which was
14 under the supervision of the district? And if that was the case,
15 what was your solution to that?
16 [10.08.07]
17 A. I already stated all these matters and decisions were made
18 through a joint meeting at the district level. So the district
19 committee -- that is, Ta Kay (phonetic), Ta Chay or Ta Kit, would
20 call the commune chiefs to those meetings. Then they would raise
21 the matters, and solutions or decisions would be made.
22 Q. How frequently were the meetings held regarding the food
23 supply issue?
24 A. The meetings held at the district where the commune committees
25 were invited to attend, it was held on a monthly basis.
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1 Q. And who chaired such a meeting?
2 A. When Ta Kit was there he would chair the meeting, and after
3 that, if Ta Kit was not in, then Ta Chay would preside over such
4 a meeting.
5 Q. And for you, did you ever represent Ta Chay or Ta Kit to
6 preside over such a meeting?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. This morning you stated that you worked with Ta Ran until the
9 time the Vietnamese troops arrived. Can you tell the Court
10 whether Ta Ran was in the sector chairmanship position until the
11 end of the regime?
12 A. To my recollection Ta Ran worked in that capacity until the
13 arrival of the Vietnamese.
14 Q. Were you aware of any replacement or changes to the head or
15 the chairman of Sector 13 at any stage or at any time during the
16 regime?
17 A. I saw brother Prak who was there before Ta Ran, and he was
18 there for only a month or two and then I didn't see him and Ta
19 Ran was there; and he was there until the end of the regime
20 together with Sam Bith.
21 [10.12.14]
22 Q. Did you participate in any meeting at the commune level where
23 an announcement of a new head of the sector was made? That is
24 towards the later time of the regime, for instance in 1978?
25 A. No, I never made such an announcement but the communes
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24
1 themselves were aware of the changes, because he constantly came
2 down to the communes on his motorbike so they were aware of the
3 change.
4 (Short pause.)
5 [10.14.01]
6 Q. This is my last question and it is related to Ta Mok. Since
7 you knew Ta Mok and you were also related to him, can you tell
8 the Court about the leadership style of Ta Mok during the regime
9 in his capacity of the secretary of the Southwest Zone?
10 [10.14.54]
11 A. It is very difficult for me to understand the nature of this
12 matter. Regarding his leadership I can say that he went to most
13 of the work sites within the zone. Namely he would go constantly
14 to a dam worksite in Angkor Borei. In short, it means he was
15 pretty much an open person. If there was a request for something
16 and if he had it then he would give it to you. For example
17 clothing -- clothes or equipment or tools, a tractor for
18 instance. If you needed a tractor to plough a rice field here and
19 there, and if he had it, then he would get it. While I was at
20 Kaoh Andeat district, cows were used to thresh the rice grains
21 from the rice husk. And then the cows were injured and because
22 there was plenty of rice to go, then we saw a request from Ta Mok
23 and Ta Mok sent a machine to take care of the matter.
24 Q. You stated he was rather an open person, or an open-minded
25 person, that he would even deal with a minor matter. Can you tell
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25
1 the Court about Ta Mok's involvement in the decision making
2 process, for example from a major issue to a minor matter? And I
3 mean through your own experience.
4 [10.17.35]
5 A. I do not know where to start or what to tell you because I did
6 not know regarding his decisions on important matters, namely to
7 deal with the military issues or on the protection of the border.
8 On the practical issues at the base, for instance to deal with
9 the matters at the work site on building dams or canals, or to
10 deal with the living conditions of the villages, then I knew
11 about that matter.
12 MR PRESIDENT:
13 Counsel, how many more questions do you have, as you are running
14 out of time?
15 [10.18.34]
16 BY MR. KONG SAM ONN:
17 Mr. President, I only have one last question. Mr. Witness my last
18 question in relation to Ta Mok, we have heard that there is an
19 expression that on top of Ta Mok's head there is a head and on
20 top of the head there was a sky. Can you tell us about that?
21 A. I think the expression was known probably at the time that Ta
22 Mok was sent by the government to be detained at Tuol Sleng. He
23 said on Mok's head there was a head, and above the head there was
24 a sky, and if one were to interpret that, it means that there
25 would be only him on earth because there was nothing else above
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26
1 him. And above him there was only his head, and above his head
2 there was a sky. However this is my own understanding and
3 interpretation.
4 [10.20.05]
5 Q. Thank you Mr. Witness, and thank you, Mr. President. I don't
6 have any further questions.
7 MR. PRESIDENT:
8 Mr. Neang Ouch, the Chamber is grateful for your time to testify
9 for three and a half days before us, and your testimony will
10 contribute to ascertaining the truth in this case. Your testimony
11 has now come to a conclusion and you may now be excused.
12 Therefore you may return to your place of residence or wherever
13 you wish to go, and we wish you a safe journey home.
14 And court officer, please, in cooperation with WESU, make
15 necessary transportation for Mr. Neang Ouch to return to his home
16 or wherever he wishes to go to.
17 And Mr. Duty Counsel we would like to thank you for your
18 assistance.
19 It is now convenient to take a short break and we will resume at
20 twenty to eleven. And when we resume we will commence hearing the
21 testimony of the new witness -- that is, 2-TCW-948 and we will
22 have the same duty counsel to assist the witness.
23 The Court is now in recess.
24 (Court recesses from 1023H to 1043H)
25 MR. PRESIDENT:
Page 26 01076237 E1/276.1 Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia Trial Chamber – Trial Day 257 Case No. 002/19-09-2007-ECCC/TC 12/03/2015
27
1 Please be seated. The Court is now back in session.
2 Before we invite, 2-TCW-948, to the witness stand, I give the
3 floor to Judge Fenz first -- first to ask any observation or to
4 clarify the request from Victor Koppe to visit Krang Ta Chan
5 security office. You may proceed, Judge Fenz.
6 [10.44.27]
7 JUDGE FENZ:
8 Thank you, President. As the President has said, this is about
9 the request for a site visit at Krang Ta Chan. We note that the
10 request was reasoned in rather general terms, probably because it
11 was spontaneous. We further note that the other Parties didn't
12 object. The Chamber has now had a look at the site ID report
13 which is in the case file, E3/5828. And after we have read the
14 report, we would ask the defence to clarify what additional
15 relevant information could be gained from a site visit as opposed
16 to just reading the site report. We -- obviously, we'll give the
17 defence some time to have a look at the site ID report, and we
18 would expect a clarification either again, what additional
19 benefit or what additional relevant information could come out of
20 a visit or a withdrawal of the request, whatever it is, after the
21 lunch break and after the defence has had time to have a look at
22 this site ID report.
23 [10.46.02]
24 MR. PRESIDENT:
25 Thank you, Judge Fenz. Court officer, please usher in 2-TCW-948,
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28
1 together with his duty counsel.
2 (Witness enters courtroom)
3 [10.47.59]
4 QUESTIONING BY THE PRESIDENT:
5 Good morning, Mr. Witness. What is your name?
6 MR. NUT NOV:
7 A. Mr. President, Your Honours, everyone in and around the
8 courtroom, my name is Nut Nov. I am 74 years old, I am living in
9 Angk Roneab village, Tram Kak commune, Tram Kak district, Takeo
10 province. I am a member of the commune committee and I am the
11 achar for the marriage ceremony.
12 [10.48.48]
13 Q. Could you spell your name? Please hold on, Mr. Witness. You
14 are instructed to wait for the microphone activation, otherwise
15 your voice is not heard in the courtroom.
16 A. The spelling of my name is, N-O-U-V.
17 Q. I have heard you state about your current address. And where
18 were you born?
19 A. My place of birth was in the same -- the same place where I am
20 living now.
21 Q. What were your parents' name?
22 A. My father's name is Nut Nob, deceased. My mother's name is Mut
23 Phen, deceased.
24 Q. What about your wife, what is her name? How many children do
25 you have together?
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1 A. My wife's name is Bou Sao. She is handicap. She could not move
2 because she had a traffic accident -- car crashed her. I have
3 nine children, and one was killed in Pol Pot time.
4 [10.50.41]
5 Q. The Greffier made an oral report that to your best knowledge,
6 none of your father, mother, ascendants', children or
7 descendants, brothers, sisters and in-laws or wife is admitted as
8 a civil party in Case 002; is that information correct?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. In the same report, you have already taken an oath before the
11 ironclad statue to the east of the courtroom; is that correct?
12 A. That is correct. I have taken an oath already.
13 Q. The Chamber would like to inform you of your rights and
14 obligations as a witness. As a witness, in the proceedings before
15 the Chamber, you may refuse to respond to any questions or to
16 make any comments which may incriminate you. That is your right
17 against self-incrimination. This means that you may refuse to
18 provide your response or make any comment that could lead you to
19 be prosecuted. As for your obligation as a witness in the
20 proceedings before the Chamber, you must respond to any question
21 made by the Bench or relevant Parties except where your response
22 or comment to those questions may incriminate you as the Chamber
23 has just informed you of your rights as a witness. As a witness,
24 you must tell the truth that you have known, heard, seen,
25 remembered, experienced or observed directly about an event or
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30
1 occurrence relevant to the questions that the Bench or Parties
2 pose to you. Do you understand your role -- your rights and
3 obligation, Mr. Nut Nov?
4 [10.53.13]
5 A. Yes, I understand.
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nut Nov. Have you ever provided your statement
7 to an investigator of the OCIJ? Where did it take place and how
8 many times did you give your statement?
9 A. I may give my statement seven times. The last one took place
10 at the Tram Kak commune office. That is from my recollection.
11 Q. Thank you very much. Before you are here in the courtroom,
12 have you read your statements already -- that is, the statement
13 you provided to the investigators of the OCIJ already?
14 A. I have reviewed the document which there is a statement I gave
15 at the commune hall office. I may forget some and I may recall
16 some.
17 [10.54.44]
18 Q. To the best of your knowledge and to your recollection, does
19 the statement you gave at the commune hall office reflect your
20 statement you gave at that time?
21 A. Yes. Yes, the statement in that document reflects what I gave
22 to the investigator at the commune hall office.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Nut Nov. You have the duty counsel, which the
24 Chamber provides to you. And your duty counsel's name is Mr.
25 Moeurn Sovann. Did you already make consultation or discussion
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31
1 with your duty counsel already before you are here?
2 [10.55.40]
3 A. Yes, I have discussion already with my duty counsel. He
4 explain me already about what's going on here.
5 MR. PRESIDENT:
6 So based on the Internal Rule 90.4 -- according to Rule 91 bis,
7 the Chamber would like to provide the floor first to the
8 Co-Prosecutor. You may proceed, Mr. Co-Prosecutor.
9 Please hold on, Mr. Co-Prosecutor. Victor Koppe, you may proceed.
10 MR. KOPPE:
11 Thank you, Mr. President. Apology for interrupting or not letting
12 the Prosecution start with their questioning. But did we hear
13 correctly that the witness said that he gave seven statements?
14 Because, if that is correct, we're missing five. And if we're
15 missing five statements, I really do not see the point in
16 continuing with the examination of this witness. And so my
17 request is to verify this number, Mr. President. And if he
18 verifies, I think, no I know, we will request to postpone the
19 testimony of this witness.
20 [10.57.19]
21 BY MR. PRESIDENT:
22 Mr. Nut Nov, how many times did you give the statement to the
23 investigator of the OCIJ of the ECCC? Where did it take place?
24 And when did you provide it? I refer only the statement that you
25 gave to the investigator of the Office of the Co-Investigating
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1 Judges of the Extraordinary Chambers in the Courts of Cambodia
2 only.
3 MR. NUT NOV:
4 A. Thank you, Mr. President. I gave the statements three times at
5 my own residence. And I gave another interview or statement at
6 Mr. -- at uncle Hum (phonetic) once, and I gave another statement
7 at the commune hall office once.
8 [10.58.24]
9 Q. As for the statements that you said you gave three times at
10 your home or residence, did that -- did it take place on the same
11 day or did it take place on different days? And when did it take
12 place?
13 A. Actually, I gave the statement, the three statements, on
14 different occasions. I did not recall those statements because I
15 was not provided with the documents.
16 Q. The three interviews that took place at your residence, who
17 were the interviewers? From which organisation? And can you
18 recall their names?
19 A. They were investigators from the working group of Mr. Chhang
20 Youk, Socheat, Sophearith and others whose names I cannot recall.
21 Q. When you were interviewed at your home, were they all people
22 working for Mr. Chhang Youk?
23 A. Yes, that is correct.
24 Q. What about your statement at Hum's (phonetic) house? And this
25 person's house, which village it is located in?
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33
1 [11.01.05]
2 A. Hu Hum's (phonetic) house is located in the same village and
3 it is not far from my house.
4 Q. For the interview took place at Hu Hum (phonetic), who was the
5 interviewer?
6 A. It was from the same documentation centre. And there was
7 another foreigner, a Korean or somebody, but I cannot recall it
8 exactly who also participated in the interview.
9 Q. Was there any Cambodian individual who interviewed you?
10 A. Yes, there was but I cannot recall the name.
11 Q. So, there were a foreigner and some Cambodians or some
12 foreigners. Can you tell the Chamber how many people exactly in
13 that group participated in the interview at Hum's (phonetic)
14 house?
15 A. There were two Cambodians, one of whom was a driver, and there
16 is a foreigner.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you recall when you were interviewed at that
18 specific location? Please try to think hard.
19 [11.02.41]
20 A. I apologise, Mr. President because I did not take down the
21 date, so I cannot recall it.
22 Q. At least give us a year, you can do that.
23 A. I am also not sure on year.
24 Q. And you also stated that you were interviewed once at a
25 commune office. Which commune office?
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34
1 A. It was at the Tram Kak commune office.
2 Q. And who actually interviewed you at that Tram Kak commune
3 office? Mr. Witness, please respond to the question because
4 probably you already responded when the microphone was not
5 activated.
6 A. The interview took place at Tram Kak commune office. And at
7 that time, I was interviewed by people from the Khmer Rouge
8 tribunal. There was one investigator and one foreigner and a --
9 an interpreter.
10 [11.04.48]
11 Q. And can you recall the date of that interview?
12 A. In fact, I bring that document along but I cannot recall the
13 date.
14 Q. Do you bring the two written records of interview?
15 A. I bring only one.
16 Q. When you were interviewed at Hu Hum's (phonetic) house and
17 another occasion -- that is, when you were interviewed at the
18 Tram Kak commune office, that was a time that you were
19 interviewed by the investigator from the ECCC, can you tell the
20 Court how long was it before the interview conducted by the ECCC
21 investigator compared to the last time that you were interviewed
22 at Hu Hum's (phonetic) house?
23 A. I think it was four years after.
24 MR. PRESIDENT:
25 Court officer, can you take the documents that the witness has
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35
1 with him so that I can check it?
2 (Short pause)
3 [11.08.54]
4 MR. PRESIDENT:
5 Court officer, you can have the document back and please, keep it
6 for the witness. And Counsel Koppe, are you clear now on the
7 numbers of the interviews? Or you have any other matters or
8 concern to raise?
9 MR. KOPPE:
10 Well, I would be really interested in having the DC-Cam
11 statements. We tried to see if we can get access to the DC-Cam
12 database but nothing shows up. I don't know -- I am looking at
13 the Prosecution whether they have access to DC-Cam statements or
14 whether they know anything about other statements. I know -- I'm
15 sure investigators or legal officers from the Case 003 and 004
16 investigations are following the proceedings. Maybe they have an
17 answer. We can start with this witness, 20 minutes and maybe we
18 can find out what situation is during the lunch break.
19 [11.10.12]
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 Yes, the International Deputy Co-Prosecutor, you have the floor.
22 MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
23 Thank you and good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours. We
24 are in the same situation as the defence. We have two records of
25 interviews by the Co-Investigating Judges. And we do not know
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36
1 that the witness gave interviews with DC-Cam and we never
2 received any record of such interviews. So perhaps during the
3 break, we could look into the matter. I think all the Parties are
4 in the same situation -- we are on the same footing. But I don't
5 think this should stop us from moving forward and questioning
6 this witness.
7 MR. PRESIDENT:
8 Yes. And the Co-Prosecutors, you have the floor now to start with
9 your questioning of this witness.
10 [11.11.16]
11 QUESTIONING BY MS. SREA RATTANAK:
12 Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, and everyone in and
13 around the courtroom. And good morning, Mr. Witness. My name is
14 Srea Rattanak. I am a National Deputy Co-Prosecutor and I have
15 some questions to put to you. And after my conclusion, my
16 international colleague will have the floor to put some questions
17 to you.
18 Q. Through your interviews with the investigators of the Office
19 of the Co-Investigating Judges -- that is, document E3/5521, and
20 the question number 1, you stated that before 1970, you were a
21 farmer at Angk Roneab village, Tram Kak commune at Tram Kak
22 district. Also in question-answer 4, you stated that after the
23 Khmer Rouge entry and control in 1970, you were appointed by the
24 Khmer Rouge as a group leader. And can you tell the Court in
25 which village or commune you were appointed as a group leader?
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37
1 MR. NUT NOV:
2 A. It was at Angk Roneab village, Tram Kak commune, Tram Kak
3 district.
4 [11.12.49]
5 Q. How long did you live in that area?
6 A. I was there from 1970 to 1973.
7 Q. In the same document -- that is, your interview with the OCIJ
8 investigator -- that is, document E3/5521, at question-answer 5,
9 you stated that from 1970 to 1973, people were made to work in
10 the rice fields in a mutual exchange. And this mutual assistant
11 team was a production group that works the rice field and people
12 were put into different groups according to their strength --
13 that is, Type 1, Type 2, and Type 3. Can you tell the Chamber
14 what was the difference between these mutual assistant teams and
15 a cooperative?
16 A. The difference between mutual assistant team and the
17 cooperative was that in the cooperative, we ate communally but in
18 the mutual assistant teams, we ate privately.
19 [11.14.17]
20 Q. In the same document, in question-answer 20, you stated that
21 in 1974, you joined the army and later on, you were -- you
22 contracted malaria and abscess, and then you went to work at the
23 Nhaeng Nhang commune office. Can you tell the Court when did that
24 happened? And until when did you finish working there?
25 A. I worked at the Nhaeng Nhang commune office until 1977.
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1 Q. What was your functions?
2 A. I worked in the office.
3 Q. I meant your daily duties at that Nhaeng Nhang commune office.
4 What were your routine works?
5 A. My daily routine at the Nhaeng Nhang commune office was to
6 request and arrange for the food supply to be sent to the front
7 battlefield. The food supply included vegetable for instance.
8 Q. In 1975, were you aware of the evacuation of the people?
9 A. Thank you for that question. In 1975, initially I did not know
10 about the people evacuation, and later on when I saw the large
11 crowd of people coming in, then I knew that people had been
12 evacuated from Phnom Penh.
13 [11.16.26]
14 Q. And what happened to those evacuees in your village or
15 commune?
16 A. It seems that there was nothing that happened to them.
17 Q. What do you mean by that -- that is, that nothing happened to
18 them?
19 A. Those people who came in, the commune make arrangement for
20 them to live in various villages. That's why I said nothing
21 happened to them.
22 Q. In your commune, did you know how many families of the 17
23 April People were allowed to stay there or were sent there?
24 A. No, I did not know.
25 Q. Can you make your best guess, for example, 70, 60, or in
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1 hundreds, in thousands?
2 A. It was in thousands for the villages and commune, and I refer
3 to the thousands of individuals, not the thousands of families.
4 [11.18.10]
5 Q. Initially, was there a plan for these New People to fill in
6 their biography?
7 A. At the beginning, they were not allowed -- they were not
8 required to fill in their biography. We lived mingled together,
9 ate meals together.
10 Q. How could they distinguish who the 17 April People were or who
11 the Base People were?
12 A. In fact, they had at list of the newcomers and the list of the
13 Base People.
14 Q. Among the New People, did they know their backgrounds -- I
15 meant whether they were former Lon Nol soldiers or former civil
16 servants?
17 A. No, they could not make that distinction.
18 [11.19.56]
19 Q. In the same document -- that is, E3/5521, at question-answer
20 30, you were asked the following question and I quote: "In your
21 village, were people told that if anyone used to be a soldier or
22 teacher or government official, they would be made to go to work
23 in the same place?" Answer 30: "Yes, they were. But those people
24 were not called to go to anywhere. But if someone disagreed or
25 opposed, they were called to study and those people were never
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1 seen coming back." End of quote. What do you mean when you made
2 that statement that I just read out to you?
3 A. It means that people were told or there was a propaganda that
4 former people could go back to their former position or job, but
5 if they oppose the Democratic Kampuchea, then they were arrested
6 and never returned. And later on, when -- if people ask about
7 them, we were told that they were sent for re-education.
8 Q. You state that if they oppose the Democratic Kampuchea regime,
9 what do you mean by that? Can you elaborate it a little bit
10 further -- it means those people oppose the propaganda or they
11 oppose the policies of the Democratic Kampuchea?
12 A. They oppose the general principles.
13 [11.22.07]
14 Q. Did you witness by yourself, for instance, people oppose this
15 general principles? Can you give us an example or two?
16 A. In fact, I did not encounter it, but I heard other people
17 talking about it, as I mainly stayed in the office.
18 Q. In the same document -- that is, E3/5521, at question-answer
19 39, you were asked about the number of cooperatives in the Nhaeng
20 Nhang commune, and you answered that they first organised them
21 into villages and then they organised them into units. Can you
22 tell the Court when they started organising cooperatives at the
23 village level? I want you to recall the dates.
24 A. They organise units in 1977. I think it was in late 1977 or
25 early 1978.
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1 Q. What about the mutual assistant teams as you stated earlier?
2 When did the mutual assistant teams transform into cooperatives?
3 A. The mutual assistant teams were changed into cooperatives at
4 the time of the liberation in 1975 and that's when people started
5 to eat communally. That is based on my personal recollection.
6 [11.24.40]
7 Q. Can you provide a little bit clearer explanation? Or, maybe I
8 am confused. You seem to give two different answers. So, my first
9 question that when they organise cooperatives into the villages
10 and you said that it was in late '77 or early '78. But when I
11 asked about the mutual assistant teams, which was transformed
12 into the cooperatives and you said that it was in 1975. So can
13 you tell the Court what happened between 1975 and 1977 or early
14 '78? Were there other forms of organisation? And please, if you
15 don't understand my question, tell me so, so I can rephrase it.
16 A. Please, rephrase your question.
17 Q. I asked you a few minutes back that when cooperatives were
18 divided into villages or at the village level, and your response
19 was consistent with the response you provided with the OCIJ
20 investigator. And that is the cooperatives were organised in --
21 at the village level in late '77 or early '78. And later on, in
22 response to my question as to when mutual assistant teams were
23 transformed into the cooperatives, and you replied that it
24 happened in 1975. So my question to you is, the period between
25 '75 to '77 or early '78, were cooperatives exist? And if so, were
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1 they organised in the villages? Or what other forms of
2 cooperatives that existed during this period of time?
3 [11.27.13]
4 A. I think I am confused. In fact, in 1975, when city dwellers
5 arrived, they organised the mutual assistant teams and then they
6 organised the cooperatives.
7 Q. And when was the private ownership abolished in your commune?
8 A. I cannot recall the date. It's been a long time.
9 Q. And when you yourself were instructed to work communally or to
10 eat communally?
11 A. Communal eating and working applied to everyone at the
12 location starting from 1976.
13 Q. If I am not mistaken and based on your response, the
14 difference between the mutual assistant team and the cooperative
15 team was that the former means you ate individually but for the
16 cooperative, you ate communally. And you said that you started
17 eating communally in 1976. So can we say that the cooperatives
18 were established in 1976?
19 [11.29.12]
20 A. I think I am not really certain. So I cannot tell you for
21 sure.
22 Q. In the same document, in question-answer 40, you also state
23 that the cooperatives were established at the villages and then
24 units were established and then, people were categorised into
25 different groups, for instance, full rights, depositees, etc. Can
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1 you explain to the Court when did that happen?
2 A. Indeed that is what happened, there were different groups, the
3 full rights people, the candidate people and the depositees. The
4 full rights people, refers to the faithful or loyal people to
5 Angkar. And the candidate people refer to those who had their
6 children study or had their children living in the enemy zone. As
7 for the depositees, they refer to all city dwellers who had been
8 evacuated.
9 [11.31.06]
10 Q. Can you tell the Court when these categorisations happened?
11 A. I apologise, I cannot really recall when it happened.
12 Q. As you have just stated, and it is consistent with your
13 response in document E3/5521 -- that is, at question-answer 45,
14 you stated that in Nhaeng Nhang commune, you were in charge of
15 receiving and distributing food supplied from the district to the
16 cooperatives. Can you elaborate further for the Court how did you
17 make the arrangement for food distribution to the cooperatives?
18 A. The food distribution was merely based on the set ratio
19 determined by the commune chief.
20 Q. Was the decision on food distribution made at the commune
21 level or at another level?
22 A. In fact, the district gave us an overall package but the
23 commune would distribute it based on the number of people in the
24 units.
25 [11.33.05]
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1 Q. So from your experience, was food distribution sufficient at
2 that time?
3 A. No, food was not sufficient at that time. There was food
4 shortage.
5 Q. You said there was a food shortage. Can you elaborate a bit
6 further?
7 A. Sometimes we had to eat gruel, sometimes cooked rice.
8 Q. What do you mean by that?
9 A. We had gruel and sometimes we could cook, cooked rice.
10 Q. I asked you about a food shortage. What do you mean by that,
11 you meant that people could not eat to their own fill? And we
12 want you to elaborate on this point from your experience.
13 A. People could not eat their fill. That's what I meant by food
14 shortage.
15 Q. While you were in Nhaeng Nhang commune, did people get sick?
16 A. Yes, people got sick and mainly those New People who did not
17 used to engage in labour in the rice field and then they fell
18 ill.
19 [11.35.12]
20 MR. PRESIDENT:
21 Thank you. And it is now convenient for us to have a lunch break.
22 We will take a break now and resume at 1.30 this afternoon.
23 And Court officer, please make an arrangement for the witness
24 during the lunch break and invite him back into the courtroom
25 with his duty counsel. And that is at 1.30.
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1 And security personnel, you're instructed to take Khieu Samphan
2 back into the waiting room downstairs and invite him back into
3 the courtroom this afternoon before 1.30.
4 The Court is now in recess.
5 (Court recesses from 1135H to 1334H)
6 MR. PRESIDENT:
7 Please be seated. The Court is now back in session.
8 I hand over the floor to the Deputy National Co-Prosecutor. You
9 may proceed.
10 [13.34.38]
11 QUESTIONING BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
12 Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon to all of you.
13 Witness, I'm going to question you this afternoon regarding the
14 events that occurred between 1975 and 1978.
15 MR. PRESIDENT:
16 You may proceed Mr. Koppe.
17 MR. KOPPE:
18 I apologise. I was wondering if there's any news in relation to
19 additional statements, either DC-Cam statements or statements
20 coming from Case 003 and 004. I was hoping that maybe during the
21 lunch break the Prosecution had time to investigate this and I
22 was wondering if there was any news on this.
23 [13.35.33]
24 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
25 Mr. President, we have not found any further answers than earlier
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1 on. We only have two written records on the case file. There's
2 nothing from Cases 003 and 004 that has not been given to the
3 Parties and there's no -- we also don't have any traces of
4 interviews that were given at DC-Cam, neither among our
5 documents, nor on site, nor on the case files. So, Mr. President,
6 I suggest that we continue on the basis of the records that were
7 taken before the Investigating Judges. So, as I was saying
8 Witness, I'm going to question you. First, I need some
9 clarification.
10 Q. You said that you had no nickname or no revolutionary name in
11 this written record, E3/5521, however, you held an official
12 position. You were a commune chief so what would the cadres call
13 you when you were working in Nhaeng Nhang and Srae Ronoung
14 communes?
15 [13.37.01]
16 MR. NUT NOV:
17 A. Thank you. At that time, I was referred to as Ta.
18 Q. Was this a revolutionary name? What did it mean?
19 A. It was very popular to refer to an individual by Ta or
20 grandfather.
21 Q. Were you called Ta Neou from time to time -- N-E-O-U-V or
22 N-E-O-U?
23 A. Yes, I was referred to as Ta Neou.
24 Q. Mr. President, I would like to give three documents to the
25 witness. First of all, the two written records of interview
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1 before the Co-Investigating Judges because we will need them
2 later and also a third document, which is document, E3/2452. And
3 for the written records it is E3/5521 and E3/19.1.17. So do you
4 give me leave to provide these three documents to the witness?
5 [13.38.54]
6 MR. PRESIDENT:
7 You may proceed.
8 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
9 Q. The first question I'm going to put to you, Witness, regards
10 document, E3/2452, which is a poor copy, I must say, of a
11 handwritten document and I'm going to read out the ERNs -- the
12 relevant ones -- Khmer, 00270998; English, 00843036; French,
13 00872836; and in French this regards the bottom of the page. So
14 this is a report -- a partial report, dated 8 October 1977, which
15 was drafted in Srae Ronoung and which is signed by a surname Nov,
16 N-O-V. This report relates to a new -- to a person from the New
17 People named Sen Keo who came from District 109 and who deserted
18 his unit and who went Leay Bour for two days. So, Witness, can
19 you tell me if this is your signature here at the bottom of the
20 page? So we're speaking here about a person who signed by the
21 name of Nov -- is that you?
22 MR. NUT NOV:
23 A. I could not -- I could not recognise it and as for the
24 handwriting, it is not my handwriting.
25 [13.41.08]
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1 Q. Was there another person working at Srae Ronoung commune who
2 would draft reports and who may have been called Nov, N-O-V.
3 A. Actually there was no other person, perhaps another one wrote
4 this letter. He was probably a clerk.
5 Q. Fine. Now, I'd like to speak about something else. In your
6 written record of interview E3/5521 you said -- I believe your
7 lawyer will help you find this document -- at answer 22, you said
8 the following: "I was ordered to become head of the supply
9 sector. Back then I would go ask for food, threshed rice, fish,
10 meat and vegetables in the villages to provide these to the front
11 lines. Aside from all of that, I was in charge of keeping records
12 and for keeping records in the commune of Nhaeng Nhang." End of
13 quote. Can you tell us what the records of Nhaeng Nhang commune
14 consisted of? Which documents were kept in these records?
15 [13.43.00]
16 A. Thank you. As for keeping records, it concerned the economics,
17 the expenditure and also the consumption of fish, meat,
18 vegetables and how much the food supplies we got from the
19 villages and how much food supplies we sent to the front line. So
20 I kept all the records.
21 Q. Fine. Now regarding the records themselves, which records
22 would you keep and can you provide us with some detail?
23 A. I told you already. As for the records, I would keep the
24 supply used.
25 Q. And what about reports and correspondence between Nhaeng Nhang
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1 commune and the district -- were also kept in these records?
2 A. After I wrote in the records, I would send the records to the
3 upper level.
4 Q. What about the documents coming from the upper level? Would
5 you keep these in the records?
6 A. For the records from the upper levels, they would be kept by
7 the chief of the communes.
8 [13.45.16]
9 Q. And earlier on you said that lists had been drafted. There was
10 a list for 17 April People and a list for Base People. Were these
11 lists kept by yourself, in the archives, or were they kept by the
12 commune chief?
13 A. The commune chief kept all the statistics.
14 Q. And who in the commune was in charge of drafting these lists?
15 Were these people working for the commune or militiamen or other
16 people?
17 A. There was another register. He or she was the clerk of the
18 commune and I was only in charge of the economics.
19 [13.46.34]
20 Q. Did you remain in charge of these archives until you left the
21 Nhaeng Nhang commune in 1977?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you tell us exactly when, in 1977, you went to Srae
24 Ronoung commune?
25 A. When I went to be in charge of Srae Ronoung commune I did not
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1 recall it exactly. Perhaps it was in late 1977 or early 1978.
2 Q. Now getting back to Nhaeng Nhang commune. When you were
3 working at the office over there you said, and this is written
4 record of interview, E3/5521, at answer 22: "Bun Si, currently
5 living Choam Ksant was commune secretary". So can you tell us if
6 Bun Si remained commune chief for a long time and if someone else
7 replaced him afterwards?
8 A. Bun Si remained the commune chief until 1977 and later on, he
9 was transferred to Kampong Cham province. After that, Ta Son was
10 the one who replaced Bun Si.
11 Q. Do you know a surname Mean, M-E-A-N, who was at Nhaeng Nhang
12 commune? And if you did know him, what was his position?
13 A. I knew this person name Mean. I left that place already,
14 actually Mean was the deputy of the commune.
15 [13.49.35]
16 Q. Fine. In the same written record of interview at answer 29,
17 and you also said the same earlier on, you said: 'At first, no
18 biography was screened'. And you're speaking about the 17 April
19 People. And then you say: "Later on, it might have happened". So
20 I would like -- the answer's a bit ambiguous, so were the 17
21 April People biographies written in Nhaeng Nhang commune?
22 A. Actually, there was the information -- there was an
23 announcement that those who had been soldiers or had worked in
24 the previous regime, they had to admit and after that they would
25 be allowed to return back to work.
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1 Q. Indeed. In order to provide some clarification regarding this,
2 those who responded to the announcement saying that they were
3 former servicemen under the Lon Nol regime and former officials,
4 what happened to them when they arrived in Nhaeng Nhang commune
5 in 1975?
6 A. At their responses, some remained at that place but some other
7 disappeared.
8 [13.51.55]
9 Q. Were they told that they would be able to go back to their
10 jobs and that they simply had to go to another place in order to
11 offer their services to the new regime?
12 A. They told that those who were teacher, those who were former
13 soldiers, or those who had been in the previous regime, they
14 would be allowed to go back to work.
15 Q. And what about those who did not answer the announcement --
16 who hid that they were former servicemen or teachers or
17 officials? What happened to them when it was discovered that they
18 had lied and that they were indeed former officials of the Lon
19 Nol regime?
20 A. As for those who concealed their backgrounds, and if they did
21 not pose any danger to the revolution, they were not mistreated.
22 And for those who opposed the revolution, they would be sent for
23 re-education.
24 Q. Do you know what would happen when it was discovered that
25 among the 17 April People -- high ranking servicemen or high
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52
1 ranking officials -- were these people also urged to say that
2 they had held these positions under the Lon Nol regime?
3 [13.54.10]
4 A. As I said already, for those who were former officials, if
5 they had any activities against the -- if they did not oppose to
6 the revolution, they -- they did not do anything on these people
7 but for those who opposed the revolution, they would be sent for
8 re-education.
9 Q. Mr. President, I would like to give to the witness a written
10 record of interview. This is the record of witness 2-TCW-822.
11 This is E3/319.1.2. I'd like to give him this record and then ask
12 him questions about it.
13 MR. PRESIDENT:
14 You may proceed.
15 [13.56.00]
16 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
17 Q. Thank you. Witness, can you please look at the second page of
18 this document and please do not speak out the name of the person
19 you see hear on the page.
20 And can you tell us, or tell the Chamber, if you knew this person
21 -- this person who worked at the Tram Kak district office, and in
22 particular, at the Tram Kak commerce -- office of commerce?
23 MR. NUT NOV:
24 A. I did not know this individual.
25 Q. That's not a problem. I'm going to have you react to what this
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1 person said in answering question 113. So yes, please go to
2 question 113. So, question: "What do you know about the slaughter
3 of the Lon Nol soldiers and their families in Takeo province?"
4 Answer: "The Khmer Rouge claimed their victory. We conquered
5 Phnom Penh they said, and then they expelled the people from
6 Phnom Penh and deported them to Champa Leu (phonetic) pagoda,
7 which was to the west, three kilometres from Angk Ta Saom in Tram
8 Kak district. They asked the officers of the former regime to
9 sign up on a list which was open for seven days and once they
10 signed the list, they were decimated without leaving any traces
11 and hundreds of thousands of them were decimated in this way."
12 End of quote. So, when you say that in your commune, the
13 servicemen and the former officials of the Lon Nol government
14 were asked to show up, were they asked to sign up on a list for a
15 certain period of time?
16 [13.58.35]
17 A. For this matter, I was not aware of it.
18 Q. So you did not hear of the events that occurred at Champa Louk
19 (phonetic) pagoda near Angk Ta Saom?
20 A. At that time, I mostly remained in the office and people -- if
21 people were gathered and placed in Champa Louk (phonetic) pagoda
22 I was not aware of it, as Champa Louk (phonetic) and the office
23 that I was in was about ten kilometres away. I simply knew that
24 people were brought into the commune.
25 Q. A while ago you stated that those who were opposed to the
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1 regime disappeared. What did you mean when you said those who
2 were opposed to the regime? Can you give us any specific examples
3 by way of illustration?
4 A. Thank you for asking this question. Those who opposed the
5 regime -- it means that they did not agree or they disliked the
6 revolution or they reacted to the wording of the organisation.
7 Q. Were there many people among the 17 April People who were
8 opposed to the regime?
9 A. There were only a few. Mostly, those people participated in
10 the cooperative actively.
11 [14.00.46]
12 Q. And among the Base People, were there people who were happy to
13 work in cooperatives and not to have private property, to eat
14 collectively and not to be openly opposed to the regime?
15 A. In fact, at that time, in general there was no one who
16 opposed. Of course everybody found it difficult in the living
17 conditions in taking the communal meal, even myself, but we did
18 not dare to express it out.
19 Q. I will revisit this issue with more concrete examples when we
20 look at reports of persons who complained and were opposed to the
21 regime but before we do that, I would like to show you another
22 extract of the record of an interview of a person who was heard
23 by the Co-Investigating Judges and it is document, E319/12.3.2. I
24 would like this document to be shown to you temporarily and then
25 I will ask some questions on certain persons and find out whether
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55
1 you know those persons.
2 MR. PRESIDENT:
3 Yes, you can proceed.
4 [14.02.31]
5 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
6 Q. Please look at the name of the person who was interviewed by
7 the Co-Investigating Judges. Don't pronounce that person's name
8 but tell me whether you know that person who may have played a
9 role in Tram Kak district and in one of its communes.
10 MR. NUT NOV:
11 A. No, I do not recognise these individuals.
12 Q. Are you sure, Mr. Witness? That person was relatively well
13 known in the district so I am somewhat surprised to hear you say
14 that you did not know that person.
15 A. I apologise as I could not read the name in my previous
16 statement. Now I believe I recognise this person and I apologise
17 for my previous statement because my eyesight is rather poor.
18 Q. Was that person commune chief during the Democratic Kampuchea
19 regime or not?
20 A. Yes, the person was the commune chief.
21 [14.05.49]
22 Q. Very well. I will read out to you questions and answers 254
23 and 255 and I will quote the passage in English because we don't
24 yet have a French translation thereof.
25 Question 254: "When the commune chiefs began to collect
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1 biographies from the people and found someone who had been
2 involved in the Lon Nol regime, what happened to those who were
3 associated with the Lon Nol regime?"
4 Answer 254: "Immediately when the Khmer Rouge regime began, they
5 commenced making biographies of people who used to be teachers,
6 policemen or civil servants in the Lon Nol regime. Then they sent
7 all of those biographies to the upper echelon. That was an order
8 from the upper echelon."
9 Question 255: "To your knowledge, what happened to those who had
10 been involved in the Lon Nol regime?"
11 Answer: "After the biographies were sent to the upper echelon,
12 they provided the names of those people to me. Then, I ordered
13 the arrests of those people and sent them to the upper echelon.
14 Some were able to return, some could not. The arrested ones were
15 mostly soldiers and policemen. Not many teachers were sent
16 there." End of quote.
17 [14.06.53]
18 Very well. Here we see senior officials of Tram Kak district and
19 commune chiefs. The chief said the biographies were established
20 by the commune regarding teachers, police officers or Lon Nol
21 civil servants and that they were sent to the upper echelon and
22 after that the upper echelon would ask the commune chief to
23 arrest the persons who had been members of the Lon Nol regime and
24 to send them. Does this refresh your memory as to what happened
25 in your commune, Nhaeng Nhang, after the evacuation of 1975 and
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1 following the arrival of those persons in Tram Kak district?
2 A. At that time I worked with the economics at the office. As for
3 such list, it was dealt with at the commune and in particular it
4 was the commune clerk. For me personally, I never took any
5 biography of those former soldiers or civil servants of the
6 previous regime.
7 [14.08.24]
8 Q. Did you, in one way or the other, heard -- did you, one way or
9 the other, hear that those biographies were taken, that they were
10 analysed at the upper echelon and that some of the persons whose
11 biographies had been established were arrested?
12 A. I do not understand your question, please rephrase it.
13 Q. I will try to simplify it. Did you hear or learn, while you
14 were working at the Nhaeng Nhang commune office, that biographies
15 of former police officers, teachers and Lon Nol civil servants
16 were established, forwarded to the district level and, based on
17 instructions from the district, those persons were arrested by
18 the commune?
19 [14.09.45]
20 A. I only heard about that but I did not witness it. I heard that
21 biographies were made.
22 Q. Very well. I'll put questions to you now regarding both Nhaeng
23 Nhang commune and Srae Ronoung and Angk Ta Saom and all the other
24 communes. The questions have to do with the year 1977, two years
25 after the evacuees from Phnom Penh had arrived in Tram Kak
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1 district. I will start by reading an extract of your record of
2 interview, E3/5521, answers 57 to 60.
3 Answer 57: "During meetings, they talked about purges of internal
4 and external enemies who were sympathetic towards supporters of
5 Lon Nol and the people who were in the party ranks and who did
6 not have a good tendency were also purged. Even me, as a commune
7 committee chief, was afraid of not towing the Party line. The
8 enemies in the rank included cadres; as for the enemies outside
9 the rank, they were ordinary citizens."
10 Question 58: "In what year was a meeting held in which this purge
11 was talked about?"
12 Answer: "In 1977 or 1978. Though I was in Srae Ronoung commune,
13 such meetings were also held."
14 [14.12.01]
15 Question number 60: "Was the decision to arrest people made at
16 the level of the district or the sector?"
17 Answer: "Approximately, it was made from the sector level to the
18 zone."
19 And for purposes of completion, I'll read the excerpt from
20 another record interview. And it is E/119.1.17, question 16 to
21 18.
22 Question 16: "Do you know whether there were meetings during
23 which the purges of enemies were discussed?"
24 Answer: "Yes, such issues arose during meetings at the level of
25 the district or the region."
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1 [14.13.01]
2 Answer number 17: "I consecutively attended meetings during which
3 it was said that false cadres or reticent cadres who were not
4 towing the party line had to be purged."
5 Question: "Who talked about purges and who ordered purges?"
6 Answer: "The order came from the zone and was handed down to the
7 district and the zone." End of quote.
8 [14.13.32]
9 Witness, as a cadre of Nhaeng Nhang commune and chief of Srae
10 Ronoung commune, did you regularly attend meetings at the level
11 of the district of Tram Kak? If yes, how often, a year or a
12 month?
13 A. When I was at Nhaeng Nhang, I did not have the authority to
14 attend such a meeting. However, when I was at Srae Ronoung
15 commune, I attended the meeting at the district level as well as
16 at the sector level. Such a meeting was held at least once a
17 month. On the issue of decision-making process for the purges,
18 and allow me to say it frankly, the commune did not have the role
19 to play, only the sector or the zone who had the authority to
20 authorize for the arrest and subsequently the smashing.
21 Q. Can you tell the Chamber at how many meetings at 105 District
22 or 13 Sector did they talked about purges of enemies or purges of
23 persons who were in one way or another were related to the Lon
24 Nol regime.
25 A. In the meeting, when I was promoted to the commune in 1978, I
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1 attended those meetings. During those meetings, what I spoke of
2 were on the agriculture production -- that is, tries to obtain
3 three tonnes per hectare of rice yield. And if a leader in those
4 fields could not reach that quota, then that person shall be
5 removed.
6 Q. Very well. But you also stated that during meetings, they
7 talked of the purges of internal and external enemies who were
8 sympathetic toward supporters of Lon Nol, who had bad tendencies.
9 Do you remember who exactly at the level of the district or the
10 sectors talked about enemies and purges? And if you can, give us
11 the names of the chiefs who talked about that.
12 [14.17.05]
13 A. The chief of the sector at the time was Ta Saom, but I do not
14 know his full name. And later on, it was Ta Prak, but
15 subsequently, Ta Prak was arrested. And for the sector, Ta Ran
16 came to replace Ta Prak, and since Ta Ran rose to the sector
17 chief, I never attended any meeting with him and I also never saw
18 him in person.
19 Q. Very well, but you did say that you attended the general --
20 the annual general assembly of Sector 13 twice. You said that in
21 your first answer in your -- to a question put to you. During
22 those general assemblies, who chaired those meetings? Who lead
23 the particular meeting: Ta Prak, Ta Ran?
24 [14.18.36]
25 A. That meeting was led by Ta Saom.
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1 Q. Very well. I'll show you a number of documents all at once.
2 These documents are from practically all the communes in Tram Kak
3 district. They have to do with the arrests of former soldiers or
4 civil servants of the Lon Nol regime, and I will ask questions
5 regarding four of these documents, which I have selected. I would
6 like to show those documents to you and have them placed on the
7 screen as well, with the President's leave. The documents are as
8 follows: E3/2048, E3/2917, E3/2432 and E3/2450.
9 Mr. President, can I show the witness these documents and
10 progressively have these documents placed on the screen as well?
11 MR. PRESIDENT:
12 Yes, you may proceed.
13 BY MR. DE WILD D'ESTMAEL:
14 Q. Let us start with the document at the top E3/2048, and the
15 Khmer page is 00079089; in English, it is 00276562 up to 63; and
16 in French, it is page 00611659. This is a report that was
17 established by Moeun from Cheang Tong commune, and it was
18 addressed on the 30th of April, 1977 to the leadership of Angkor
19 in Tram Kak district. And this is what is stated therein, and I
20 quote:
21 [14.21.06]
22 "Regarding the situation of enemies in my base, after receiving
23 successive recommendations from Angkor regarding the vigilance
24 vis-a-vis the enemy and the sweeping clean of enemy soldiers who
25 are officers, we monitored, examined and identified the following
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1 persons." End of quote.
2 Second document, the same reference, but another page E3/2048, it
3 is two pages further in Khmer, 00079091; in English, 00276564;
4 and in French, page 4; and the ERN is 00611661. It is a report
5 from Ta Phem commune sent during the same period as the first
6 report, which is the 28th of April 1977, and it is stated therein
7 that the commune, and I quote:
8 [14.22.31]
9 "After receiving recommendations from the Party, examined and
10 swept clean enemies who were officers." End of quote.
11 The following document is E3/2917, the page in Khmer is 00079090.
12 I believe there is an error somewhere. In English, it is
13 00742890; in French, 00810574. In any case, you have only one
14 page before your eyes, Witness, and it is a report from Popel
15 commune, and it states the following on the 4th of May 1977, a
16 few days after the two previous reports, and it states, and I
17 quote:
18 "The number of families of soldiers who died who were eliminated
19 by Angkor were equivalent to 393 individuals."
20 This report also states that the commune tried to identify
21 whether they were soldiers or not.
22 Fourth and last but one report has number, E3/2432. It is a
23 single page. It is a list dated the 18th of April. It was
24 established by Nhaeng Nhang commune and it identifies 11 military
25 officers from the previous regime who lived at Nhaeng Nhang at
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1 the time, and that list includes two commanders, in English,
2 majors, five lieutenants or first-lieutenants, and four
3 second-lieutenants.
4 And the last document is E3/2450. In Khmer it is, 00270746; in
5 English, 00322161; and in French, 00623747. This is a letter from
6 the chief of Nhaeng Nhang commune or of his assistant called
7 Mean, M-E-A-N. It's addressed to the chief of the security centre
8 at Krang Ta Chan and he identifies three former officers of the
9 Lon Nol army arrested in that commune, two lieutenants and a
10 second-lieutenant. They were sent to security centres following a
11 decision by Angkor. The document states as follows, and I quote:
12 [14.26.02]
13 "Regarding -- concerning the errors they made, there is nothing
14 else to be pointed out. These people were arrested because they
15 were high-ranking officers." End of quote.
16 Now, I have a few questions for you in this regard. Regarding the
17 five extracts from the four documents do they refresh your memory
18 as to the fact that the commune established reports on arrests
19 and purging or purges of officers of the Lon Nol army?
20 [14.26.47]
21 MR. NUT NOV:
22 A. You referred to another commune which was not under my
23 management. Because what you read, that happened in that Nhaeng
24 Nhang commune was after I already left.
25 Q. During meetings when you were commune chief -- that is, the
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1 Srae Ronoung commune in 1978, did you receive specific
2 instructions on reports that had to be established regarding the
3 former military officers of the Lon Nol army?
4 A. When I went to Srae Ronoung commune, the previous commune
5 chief had already conducted the purge, so when I was there, I did
6 not make any arrest of anyone. And that happened in 1978.
7 Q. Fine, but here I mentioned a certain number of reports coming
8 from other communes. There was first the commune of Cheang Tong.
9 This was a report dated 30 April, 1977. Commune of Ta Phem, a
10 report from 28 of April, 1977. Popel 4 May, 1977. Nhaeng Nhang,
11 18 April, no year is mentioned here. And these are reports that
12 were drafted by different communes but at the same period, and
13 during that period you said that you were still at Nhaeng Nhang
14 commune, and now you just said to us that this happened once you
15 had left Nhaeng Nhang commune. So when you were still at Nhaeng
16 Nhang commune and before arriving at Srae Ronoung, did you hear
17 about the fact that the enemies, the high-ranking officers of the
18 Lon Nol army were smashed?
19 [14.29.31]
20 A. Although that document was made in Nhaeng Nhang. At that time,
21 I was in charge of the economics and the commune chief was
22 another person, and they did that work without informing us,
23 working in the commune office.
24 Q. And does the word "sweeping clean", was it often used during
25 meetings, and what did it mean during the Khmer Rouge period?
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1 A. The expression "to sweep clean" means to purge within the
2 rank, that is those who were disloyal to the Party. Even if the
3 person was a commune chief or a member of the commune committee,
4 they would be subject to being purged as well. I, myself, was
5 very concerned, so I tried to work as hard as the ordinary
6 villagers. I participated in gathering natural fertilizers, in
7 achieving three tonnes per hectare of rice produce, etc.
8 [14.31.11]
9 Q. Well, to be perfectly clear about this, when you say to "sweep
10 clean", did this mean purge the ranks? Did this mean that these
11 people were eliminated?
12 A. People in ranks were arrested one after another.
13 Q. And once these people were arrested, did you know what would
14 happen to them? Were these people seen again?
15 A. In general, we could not see them return to the place. In Srae
16 Ronoung, Ta Khun was removed, and I never saw him again.
17 Q. I would like to quote without providing you the document, but
18 simply quote from witness 2-TCW-860. And in his written record of
19 interview E3/5511, at answer 9, he said the following. I will
20 simply give you the context. He was a deputy chief at the Tram
21 Kak hospital. And at answer 9, he describes a district assembly
22 during which the cadres were informed of the categories of people
23 who had to be purged. And he said the following, and I quote:
24 [14.33.17]
25 "The people who were to be executed were part of the army. As
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1 officers from the rank of warrant officer up, whereas those who
2 worked in the administration, people from the rank of first
3 assistant above had to be executed."
4 So you're saying that the purge at Srae Ronoung had already been
5 carried out when you arrived. Did you, yourself, attend a
6 district assembly where it was decided which categories of people
7 among the former servicemen and officials of the Lon Nol regime
8 had to be purged?
9 A. I did not recall it well. At that time, I was in my 30s and
10 now it has been over 30 years from the event and I did not recall
11 it.
12 [14.34.42]
13 Q. Earlier on you spoke about an assembly at Sector 13 that was
14 chaired by Ta Saom. In which year, did Ta Saom chair such an
15 assembly, an assembly you attended?
16 A. In 1977 and 1978, he chaired the meetings in 1977 and 1978.
17 Q. Was it Ta Saom each time who would chair these meetings in
18 1977 as well as in 1978? Earlier on, you said that Ta Saom had
19 several people who followed him, Ta Prak and Ta Ran, for example.
20 Can you confirm that Ta Saom was present at both of these
21 assemblies or only at one of them?
22 A. Ta Ran and Ta Prak never attended the assemblies. Ta Prak was
23 transferred to Takeo for three months. After that, he was
24 arrested. I am -- was not sure how long Ta Ran was there in Tram
25 Kak. And I knew that Ta Ran went to join the assembly in Phnom
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1 Penh, and he was hit by the train.
2 Q. Did anyone replace Ta Ran after that accident?
3 A. Ta Tith replaced Ta Ran. I did not know his full name. I knew
4 only Ta Tith. And after Ta Tith was transferred to any other
5 place, Ta Kit replaced Ta Tith.
6 Q. Well, I will stop here. So, I understand that it's quite
7 difficult to remember the dates 30 years later. However, I'd like
8 to get back to a person who criticized Angkor in Nhaeng Nhang and
9 Srae Ronoung communes. And you said at answer 30 of your written
10 record of interview, E3/5521, you said that: "The people who
11 disagreed or who criticized Angkor in any way whatsoever were
12 sent to education sessions and all of these people never came
13 back."
14 [14.38.15]
15 So, before the break, I would like to provide to the witness a
16 document as well as to display it on the monitor. This is
17 document E3/4098. With your leave, Mr. President.
18 MR. PRESIDENT:
19 You may proceed.
20 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
21 Q. In English, 0032214 to 15; in French, 00623837 to 38. This is
22 a report dated 4 August, 1976, that was sent to the district
23 Party by An, who was the head of Krang Ta Chan regarding the
24 arrival of prisoners. And this report describes the case of one
25 prisoner from Nhaeng Nhang commune called Toan Tean, T-O-A-N, and
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1 Tean, T-E-A-N, Toan Tean.
2 [14.39.56]
3 And in this report, you see that Toan Tean criticized Angkor,
4 that he did not show respect for the regime during a commune
5 meeting and that apparently he had been encouraged by colleagues
6 to escape to Thailand. On the upper left-hand side of this report
7 there is a note which says the following, and I quote: "To be
8 interrogated then smashed." Do you know this person, this Toan
9 Tean who, before the Democratic Kampuchea regime, was working as
10 a pharmacist in the village of Ruessei Srok in Nhaeng Nhang
11 commune?
12 MR. NUT NOV:
13 A. I did not know the person named Toan Tean, but I heard people
14 call an individual by the name Tean. Actually, I did not know the
15 person named Toan Tean.
16 Q. And just like Toan Tean, who apparently criticized the regime
17 or who demonstrated what was interpreted as lack of respect for
18 the regime, does that mean that any -- even the slightest amount
19 of criticism was enough to justify an arrest and then an
20 execution?
21 MR. PRESIDENT:
22 Please hold on, Mr. Witness. You may proceed, Mr. Koppe.
23 [14.42.08]
24 MR. KOPPE:
25 Yes, I object to this question. First of all, the witness doesn't
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1 know the document. Secondly, there's a lot of speculation in this
2 answer that these people were executed for nothing. I think the
3 questions posed by the Prosecution should not be leading and
4 should be based on the knowledge of this particular witness. So,
5 I object to this particular line of question.
6 MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
7 Mr. President, I would like to respond, because I just quoted
8 what the witness had said regarding people who showed criticism
9 or regarding people who disagreed, and he said that these people
10 were sent to education sessions and that they would never come
11 back. So I think I can ask him if, just like the person described
12 in this document, if anyone criticized the system or the regime
13 that person would be executed in the commune in which that person
14 was living.
15 [14.43.32]
16 MR. PRESIDENT:
17 The objection of the Defence Counsel for Mr. Nuon Chea is
18 overruled. The Chamber needs to hear the testimony -- the
19 response from this witness to the last question put by the Deputy
20 International Co-Prosecutor. Mr. Witness, you are instructed to
21 give your response to the last question put by International
22 Co-Prosecutor.
23 MR. NUT NUOV:
24 I forgot the question. I do not recall your question, Mr.
25 Co-Prosecutor.
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1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 Mr. Co-Prosecutor, could you repeat the question please.
3 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
4 Yes, of course.
5 Q. Witness, criticizing the regime or showing lack of respect or
6 what was interpreted as such, was this enough to be arrested and
7 then executed in Nhaeng Nhang commune or in any other commune in
8 Tram Kak district?
9 [14.45.01]
10 MR. NUT NUOV:
11 A. I was not aware of this matter. At that time, I was not
12 staying in Nhaeng Nhang, and the decisions were made in Nhaeng
13 Nhang commune -- the decisions were made by the heads, and I did
14 not know about this matter.
15 MR. PRESIDENT:
16 Thank you, Mr. Witness. Thank you also, the Deputy International
17 Co-Prosecutor.
18 It is now a convenient time for break. The hearing will resume at
19 five past 3.00.
20 Court officer, you are instructed to find a proper place for Mr.
21 Witness and also for the duty counsel and to have them returned
22 before five past 3.00.
23 The Court is adjourned.
24 (Court recesses from 1446H to 1508H)
25 MR. PRESIDENT:
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1 Please be seated.
2 The Court is now back in session. And again, we would like to
3 hand over the floor to the Prosecutor to put questions to this
4 witness. You may proceed.
5 BY MR.DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
6 Q. Thank you Mr. President. Mr. Witness, I would like us to
7 revisit what you said regarding the meeting or the meetings you
8 attended in Sector 13. A meeting that was chaired by Ta Saom and
9 you stated that they talked of purges of internal and external
10 enemies particularly those were sympathetic towards supporters of
11 Lon Nol and those who had bad tendencies. Can you try to recall
12 the exact statement made by Ta Saom regarding the enemy, what did
13 he say specifically?
14 MR. NUT NOV:
15 A. On the issue of purging the enemy as stated by the sector
16 chairman, it mainly focused on those individuals who opposed the
17 regime of Democratic Kampuchea, those people would be considered
18 the enemy.
19 Q. Very well. And you said in answer 30 -- that is, E3/5521, that
20 opponents were sent to follow re-education sessions and many of
21 them did not return. What was the level of authority that had the
22 competence to send -- who had to be sent for re-education, was it
23 the commune, the district or the sector?
24 [15.10.23]
25 A. At that time it was only the sector or the zone who had the
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1 authority to decide as to who would be called for re-education.
2 The commune did not have that authority.
3 Q. So the commune merely contented itself with establishing
4 reports on incidents during which certain persons expressed their
5 opposition to the Regime, is that correct?
6 A. Yes, that is correct. The commune would make a report and the
7 report would be forwarded to the upper echelon, who would make a
8 decision on the matter.
9 [15.11.18]
10 Q. When you talk of re-education sessions, was it a question of
11 sending persons that the sector or the district had decided to
12 send for such re-education, were they sent to re-education
13 centres?
14 A. In practice, the upper organisation would send those people
15 were caught or who were gathered.
16 Q. During the Democratic Kampuchea regime did you ever hear the
17 name Ta An, the director of the district re-education centre?
18 A. I heard of the name of Ta An, but I did not know him but for
19 the commune committee we did not go to where Ta An worked.
20 Q. This is what you stated in your record of interview, E3/5521,
21 question 41 and this was your answer to that question. "Did you
22 know who had issued letters to arrest and send people to study?"
23 And your answer was as follows, "The district security wrote
24 letters to the commune militia." And in answer 42, "I knew,
25 because the commune militia reported to the commune and only
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1 commune militia had the right to arrest and tie people." So you
2 are talking of security officers who wrote to secret agents or
3 militias. What do you mean by security officers, are you talking
4 of security officials of the commune, the district or the region
5 or any other persons who were in charge of security in that
6 region?
7 A. In that statement, for the militia, it refers to the, rather
8 the security refers to the security in the sector and they would
9 liaise with the militia at the commune level.
10 [15.14.47]
11 Q. So when you talk of militias or secret agents, you indeed mean
12 the militia men or the chlops at the level of the commune?
13 A. Yes, indeed that is correct.
14 Q. Let us talk about co-operatives in various units. You stated
15 that co-operatives were established on the basis of
16 classification of the members of the population into three
17 groups. You have the full rights inhabitants, you had the
18 candidate inhabitants and the Base People, whose relatives were
19 executed by Angkar or persons whose children or grandchildren had
20 been involved in the former regime. Then you talked of natives
21 and non-native people who were deported from Phnom Penh. When
22 co-operatives were created based on the classification of members
23 of the population, where were those three units based in your
24 commune, were they based at different locations in the commune?
25 A. As for the organisation of the co-operatives, members of the
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1 population were classified as you stated into the three
2 classifications. The full rights, the candidates and the
3 depositees and houses were built were various units starting from
4 A, B, C, D, etc.
5 [15.16.57]
6 Q. Is it correct to say that, the full rights inhabitants in the
7 first unit, the candidate inhabitants in the second unit and the
8 other candidates in the third unit and they were located at
9 different places?
10 A. As for the classification of the members of the population
11 into three categories and not units but categories, three
12 categories. And then within the categories they would placed into
13 various units. It depends on the size of the population of a
14 commune, sometime there would be five to six units within a
15 commune.
16 Q. Very well. Were there any units consisting exclusively of 17th
17 April People?
18 A. Yes. Yes, for the 17th April People, however the unit chief
19 and the deputy unit chief for those 17th April People group --
20 units, were the Base People.
21 Q. When that classification of that population was done were you
22 still at Nhaeng Nhang or at Srae Ronoung commune?
23 A. I had already been transferred to Srae Ronoung commune.
24 [15.19.09]
25 Q. Were the workers of the first category -- that is, full rights
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1 inhabitants -- and you said earlier that they considered
2 themselves as loyal to the Party -- did the Party consider those
3 workers as the purest among all the workers?
4 A. Those workers who were classified as in the first
5 classifications, means that they were the proper people who
6 adhere to the revolution.
7 [15.20.01]
8 Q. And inhabitants of the second category that is the Base
9 People, were they less worthy of trust than those of the first
10 category?
11 A. For the second category, those people were also trusted as
12 they were the Base People; however they felt that they were
13 placed in the second category because they had family members or
14 relatives who lived in the area controlled by the enemy. So they
15 were actually in the process of becoming the full right people.
16 Q. Regarding the 17th April People -- that is, who came from the
17 town, were they considered as cadres of the regime as not being
18 worthy of trust?
19 A. They trusted them or trusted most of them. They were only less
20 -- less majority of them were not trusted. They were trusted by
21 the Party that is the reason why they were allowed live in or at
22 the base.
23 [15.22.07]
24 Q. Did you hear the expression "prisoners of war" used to
25 designate the 17th April People?
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1 A. Yes, the expression was used. People talked about "prisoners
2 of war", however later on they were referred to as "city
3 evacuees" or "town evacuees".
4 Q. Very well. I'll read an excerpt of your record of interview,
5 E3/5521. You said in answer to question 47, "There was a lack of
6 food because there were many people but our production was little
7 and people made do with rice porridge." Who had to content
8 themselves with rice porridge, were they people of the first,
9 second or third categories?
10 A. Even if there was gruel for a category it means that all the
11 three categories would have the same food -- that is, only gruel.
12 However, I could only talk about my commune -- that is, Srae
13 Ronoung. And every ten days, there would be a better gruel --
14 that is, gruel mixed with meat and we would have pork for people
15 to eat every ten days. But like I said again, this is what
16 happened at Srae Ronoung commune.
17 [15.24.17]
18 Q. Witness, to which category did you belong, category one,
19 category two or category three?
20 A. I do not get your question.
21 Q. Were you a Base Berson who belonged to the first category of
22 people according to the Khmer Rouge classification or were you in
23 the second category because someone from your family had ties
24 with the Lon Nol regime or were you among the evacuees of Phnom
25 Penh?
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1 A. I was a Base Person, however I was not yet classified into the
2 first category although I worked at the commune level because one
3 of my younger brothers was taken away and a son of my other
4 brother was also taken away. So I was placed in the second
5 category as a candidate person but due to the good work
6 performance then I was assigned to be in charge of the commune in
7 1977 and 1978.
8 Q. Were you a member of the Kampuchea Communist Party in your
9 capacity as commune chief at Srae Ronoung?
10 A. I was a candidate member not a full right member.
11 [15.26.19]
12 Q. You said in answer 51 that most of the sick were those of the
13 17th April People because they hadn't gained enough experience to
14 live in the rural areas. Question 53: "At that time were there
15 many people dying?", and your answer was that, "Death indeed
16 existed." If most of the sick were people of the 17th April, were
17 there progressively fewer and fewer 17th April People working in
18 Srae Ronoung commune?
19 A. In Srae Ronoung commune when I was there, I resolved a number
20 of the issues related to the living condition, however there were
21 still people who were ill and some of them had to be sent to a
22 hospital in Angk Roneab.
23 Q. I would like to show you document, E3/2436, to the witness.
24 And with your leave, Mr. President, may I request that it be
25 placed on the screen?
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1 MR. PRESIDENT:
2 Yes, you may proceed.
3 [15.29.11]
4 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
5 Q. It is a report from Nheang Nhang commune signed by Mean, it
6 was sent to district Angkar in April, 1977. This report concerns
7 a person called Mou Phon of the New People. He was a former
8 soldier in the former regime. In paragraph three of that report
9 Mean criticises Mou Phon as follows and I quote: "When he was
10 transferred to construct canals, Mou Phon refused to go there on
11 the pretext that he was too exhausted to carry earth, when he was
12 assigned to produce fertilisers he said he had stomach ache,
13 incapable of doing the work. He hardly works, he is very cunning,
14 he is very fat." End of quote.
15 Were people too exhausted to work in co-operatives, Witness?
16 MR. NUT NOV:
17 A. In Srae Ronoung commune I never experienced people who were
18 over exhausted. The document here was about the situation in
19 Nhaeng Nhang commune after I had left.
20 Q. So can you specify when you left Nhaeng Nhang commune because
21 here, this is a document dated 28 April 1977 and earlier on I
22 showed you a document dated June, 1976, and each time you said
23 you had already left Nhaeng Nhang commune. So when exactly did
24 you leave Nhaeng Nhang commune?
25 A. I left Nhaeng Nhang commune in late 1977 or early 1978.
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1 Q. So you agree that the report that I just read out to you dated
2 28 April 1977, was drafted when you were still there -- still at
3 Nhaeng Nhang. Another question, would people who were sick often
4 accused of making believe because they did not want to work? Did
5 you ever hear that?
6 A. For this matter in my commune, I did not hear any people
7 pretending to be sick and they were actually sick and they
8 received treatment.
9 [15.31.50]
10 Q. At the bottom of the report that I just read, E3/2436, there's
11 a handwritten note signed by a so-named, Kit. This note
12 authorises the arrest of certain Mou Phon. Do you know who this
13 Kit was and what were his duties back then?
14 A. Ta Kit was the district committee at that time. He was at the
15 district committee level at that time.
16 Q. Thank you. I have two other documents to show to you. Mr.
17 President, may I have the leave to display it on the screen. It
18 is document, E3/2450 and E3/2453.
19 MR. PRESIDENT:
20 You may proceed.
21 [15.33.11]
22 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
23 Q. With regard to the first document E3/2450 with the following
24 ERNs; Khmer, 00270748; English, 00322163; French, 00623749. And
25 this is a report that was sent by the chief of Nhaeng Nhang
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1 commune or by his deputy by the name of Mean and it was sent to
2 the head of Krang Ta Cha prison, Ta An. And this report regards a
3 woman of Nhaeng Nhang commune, who is called in this document,
4 O-A. She was the wife of the Lieutenant Colonel in the Lon Nol
5 regime who had been arrested upon Angkar's recommendationsbecause
6 she had complained of the fact that, and I quote: "Doing
7 revolution it's very difficult, we have to do the works days and
8 night and are given gruel to eat, we cannot bear this sort of
9 living." End of quote.
10 The second document, E3/2453; Khmer ERN, 00270780 to 81; English,
11 00388483; French, 00611773; and this is a report dated 6 October
12 1977, which is addressed to the district by Nhaeng Nhang commune
13 and signed by Sim, S-I-M. Sim is denouncing the wives of
14 servicemen who had criticised the revolution because they had
15 nothing to eat. I quote, "We would only eat gruel whereas under
16 the old regime it was completely different." And these wives of
17 the servicemen said that the food under the former regime was
18 adequate and that people would have fun.
19 So what would happen to the people in Nhaeng Nhang who would
20 complain about the lack of food and about the hard living
21 conditions or about the hard working conditions?
22 MR. NUT NOV:
23 A. In the two letters, I was not aware of them. I could not give
24 my response. I already left Nhaeng Nhang and when Ta Mean arrived
25 at that place, I was not in Nhaeng Nhang. So frankly, I did not
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1 know and I could not make any decision so I was not aware of the
2 two letters.
3 [15.36.43]
4 Q. Fine. But were the communes ordered by the district to produce
5 reports on people who would complain about the lack of food or
6 about the working conditions?
7 A. In my commune, those who complained about working conditions,
8 there would be sessions of criticism and self-criticism so that
9 those people could understand about the collective interests
10 concerning our work. I never sent any reports to the district.
11 [15.37.36]
12 Q. Who was this "Sim" who signed this report from Nhaeng Nhang
13 commune in October 1977, at the time when you said you were still
14 there?
15 A. Sim was the head of Nhaeng Nhang.
16 MR. PRESIDENT:
17 Mr. Witness, you are instructed to repeat your response because
18 while you were answering the microphone was not yet activated.
19 MR. NUT NOV:
20 A. As for Sim, he was the chief of Nhaeng Nhang commune. I was
21 not with him, I had already left the place when he was there.
22 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
23 Q. Fine. I'm not speaking about Srae Ronoung commune but about
24 your role as a commune leader. So, as far as you knew, was it
25 compulsory for the communes to draft reports regarding people who
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1 tried to escape?
2 A. If there were such incidents, the report would be compiled and
3 submitted to the district.
4 Q. Fine. I have three copies of such reports and which I would
5 like to show to you and I would like to display on the screen
6 with your leave, Mr. President. This is document, D157.90 and
7 E3/2452.
8 MR. PRESIDENT:
9 You may proceed.
10 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
11 Q. The first document which comes from Nhaeng Nhang commune, this
12 is a report dated end of November 1977 regarding the
13 interrogation of a young person who was arrested in Nhaeng Nhang
14 commune and who had tried to escape to Vietnam. The report
15 explains that the district soldiers shot -- fired three shots
16 before managing to arrest him and then he was sent to the
17 district police re-education centre. The second document,
18 E3/2453, on Page Khmer, 00270779; English, 00388582; French
19 00611772; and this is a report that was drafted by Khun on 13
20 October 1977, who was the Srae Ronoung commune chief and he is
21 sending this report to the district Party regarding a farmer who
22 fled the commune and was captured in District 107 and sent back
23 to Sraeng Ronoung. And finally, document, E3/2452, Khmer ERN,
24 00270998; English, 00843036; French, 00872836; and this is a
25 document which I showed you at the beginning -- that is to say, a
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1 partial report dated 8 October 1977, which was drafted in Srae
2 Ronoung by a certain, Nov, N-O-V, and he reports on New People --
3 a person from the New People who went to Leay Bour who deserted
4 his commune. So here we have three examples of commune reports
5 concerning you and you said that reports had to be sent to the
6 district so what were the specific instructions from the district
7 regarding people who were trying to escape from Cambodia in
8 particular because of the living and working conditions in
9 Cambodia?
10 [15.42.59]
11 MR. PRESIDENT:
12 Please hold on Mr. Witness. You may proceed, Mr. Kong Sam Onn.
13 MR. KONG SAM ONN:
14 Thank you, Mr. President. Concerning the use of the document by
15 the Deputy International Co-Prosecutor, Mr. Co-Prosecutor said
16 that this document was made or drafted by "Nov". From my
17 understanding Mr. Witness already said that he could not
18 recognise this document and he could not read and could not know
19 who drafted or made this report. So I believe that the
20 International Co-Prosecutor misrepresented the testimony of the
21 Mr. Witness.
22 MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
23 I did not represent anything. I didn't say that he had signed
24 this document. He gave his explanation. Regarding the author of
25 the third document, the question I want to put is much more
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1 general in nature. We're speaking about three reports that were
2 drafted in the commune where the witness lived and worked and my
3 question is, if reports were sent by the communes to the district
4 and therefore what were the instructions given by the district
5 regarding people who were trying to flee Cambodia because of the
6 living and working conditions they were subjected to.
7 [15.44.43]
8 MR. PRESIDENT:
9 The objection of the Defence Counsel is overruled and there is
10 clear basis, the Chamber needs to hear this testimony or the
11 response of this witness. Mr. Witness, you are instructed to
12 provide your response to the last question put by the Deputy
13 International Co-Prosecutor.
14 A. Concerning the last question, I already told the Court that I
15 was not aware this report and the handwriting is not mine.
16 Actually this is my name because I -- during that time I was in
17 Srae Rononung and it is my name and the two reports in my hands,
18 I was not aware of the two documents, so please be informed, Mr.
19 President.
20 [15.45.50]
21 BY MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
22 Q. Fine. In terms of the meetings you would attend every month as
23 a commune chief, were you given specific instructions regarding
24 the necessity to draft reports on all people who may be arrested
25 as they were trying to flee Cambodia?
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1 MR. NUT NOV:
2 A. The meetings might happen once or twice a month concerning the
3 harvest in dry or wet season. If it was not necessary, the
4 meeting was not held and if it was necessary there would
5 meetings. During the meetings, there were instructions concerning
6 the produce of three tonnes per hectare and we were told to
7 strive in the working in the fields. Thank you.
8 Q. Thank you, Witness. That was not my question. What I wanted to
9 know is that, during these monthly meetings at the district level
10 were security issues brought up? I'm not speaking about
11 agriculture. Were the commune chiefs told when they had to
12 produce reports to the district regarding security issues and in
13 particular regarding people who were trying to flee Cambodia?
14 A. At my place the meetings were not about those who escaped or
15 who tried to escape. I was not aware of such meetings or such
16 discussion. Thank you.
17 [15.48.15]
18 Q. You said that the communes were in charge of producing reports
19 regarding people who were trying to flee Cambodia, why would the
20 communes draft such reports if they had not received prior
21 instructions to do so?
22 A. The report was about the situation every month which we had to
23 include the security, economics and social work. If there were no
24 people trying to escape then we would not put in the report but
25 if there were such incidents, we would put in reports and
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1 actually I wasn't the one who drafted the report there was
2 someone at the office who produced the reports.
3 [15.49.28]
4 Q. At answer 68 of your written record of interview--
5 MR. PRESIDENT:
6 Thank you very much, Mr. Nut Nov. The hearing of your testimony
7 as a witness does not come to an end yet you are invited to
8 provide your testimony again on Monday 16 March 2015, starting
9 from 9 a.m.
10 And We, the Chamber will try to finish hearing your testimony by
11 Monday, so we would like to end your testimony and the hearing by
12 now because we have other matters to discuss.
13 Court officer you are instructed to bring Mr. Nov back to his
14 residence and have him return on Monday 16 March 2015, before 9
15 a.m. and Mr. Moeurn Sovann, you are also invited to be here. You
16 may be excused now.
17 (Witness and duty counsel exit courtroom)
18 [15.51.12]
19 Now, the Chamber would like to give the floor to Mr. Koppe, to
20 present your reasons in relation to your request concerning the
21 site visit of Krang Ta Chan security office as mentioned by Judge
22 Fenz this morning.
23 As we may be aware, the event happened almost 40 years and in the
24 report we have seen the picture of the site and also some other
25 reports. To have the basis for the decision by the Chamber, the
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1 Chamber would like to hear further reasons by the Counsel Victor
2 Koppe, if you wish to do so. You may proceed sir -- Counsel.
3 [15.53.09]
4 MR. KOPPE:
5 Thank you Mr. President. I'm not -- I've been thinking about your
6 request, obviously, this afternoon and I'm not sure if there is
7 much more add than what I already said, you are right, in a
8 spontaneous request earlier last month. But I might reiterate,
9 that for me and for my team, it was extremely helpful to not only
10 have been able to study the maps that were drawn by the
11 investigators and the photos that were made but actually to be
12 able to see the site. It's almost -- the comparison maybe a
13 little strange -- but it is almost like you wouldn't buy a house
14 based on a map of the house and some photos, you would like to
15 actually see it. And once you see something, especially this
16 crime site, it is extremely helpful in understanding all kinds of
17 issues.
18 [15.54.23]
19 One issue for instance, and I think I mentioned that earlier is,
20 that we can read in the closing order that it is alleged that
21 probably around 15000 or allegedly around 15000 people were
22 executed at Krang Ta Chan. It is contention and it is also our --
23 we will write that in our closing briefs at one point of time --
24 but it is, I think, physically completely impossible to have
25 15000 corpses lying in pits on that grave site. Now, you can make
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1 that calculation based on statistics, forensic calculation
2 methods etc., but if you are actually on that site, this is one
3 of the things that will immediately come to your attention.
4 [15.54.16]
5 There is -- there are all kinds of other issues that have been
6 discussed in the last months, positions of the gate, position of
7 the foot of the mountain, so there's all kind of issues which
8 technically you could decide or you could make conclusions on
9 paper, however in reality when you actually see the crime site,
10 when you see Krang Ta Chan, many issues become much clearer. And
11 then, I think, it will also become clear -- and that was the
12 reason we made that spontaneous request -- that the witnesses who
13 are saying, who are giving testimony to executions, torture,
14 etc., on the crime site and the ones, especially guards who are
15 saying "Well, we didn't see anything, we weren't able to notice
16 anything", that to me seems not very credible, that these two
17 scenarios could co-exist together.
18 [15.56.22]
19 So, I presume that I'm reiterating my earlier comments on this
20 issue however there are also other issues that are relevant.
21 There are things could be investigated by the Trial Chamber,
22 things that we are unable to actually investigate. For instance,
23 there is a stupa on that site containing the skulls of people
24 allegedly killed there, we tried to make a calculation of how
25 many skulls we could see. That could potentially be an indication
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1 of people that were executed there. I don't know. Was Krang Ta
2 Chan indeed a grave burial site as is reported in the post 1979
3 reports? That is something that we cannot verify, we have tried
4 to ask that to -- to witnesses but maybe the Trial Chamber while
5 investigating and while being accompanied by the local
6 authorities could come up with answers, I don't know.
7 [15.56.33]
8 But I suppose the most important underlying reason for this
9 request is that in our experience and I think the Prosecution
10 must agree with this, that it is a huge difference in actually
11 seeing the site, walking on the site, seeing the buildings,
12 although they are not authentic anymore, and try to be able to
13 evaluate the things in a proper way. So, technically you're right
14 there is a drawing but it's a difference between day and night
15 and that's why I think it is very worthwhile to the ascertainment
16 of the truth that the Trial Chamber visits the site by itself,
17 accompanied, obviously, by the Parties.
18 [15.57.27]
19 MR. PRESIDENT:
20 Thank you very much. You may proceed, Deputy International
21 Co-Prosecutor.
22 MR. DE WILDE D'ESTMAEL:
23 Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to add something to what I
24 said last time. I was speaking or I was saying that in principle
25 it would be of course interesting for members of the Court to
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1 travel to that place but there are different problems here. There
2 is an identification -- there is a site identification report
3 that's placed on the case file and that's very comprehensive with
4 GPS data and all kinds of photos that are attached. There is a
5 map that was drawn based on the different locations that were
6 designated by the civil party who came with the investigators.
7 And today I see that the defence is referring to that map and
8 which is rather interesting because during the other days, the
9 defence was relying on the map that was drawn by a guard. So
10 thanks to these photographs I think we have a clear idea because
11 the civil party shows a certain number of places that no longer
12 exist today. Of course there are still traces of pits but
13 regarding the buildings, there are no buildings left so there is
14 no point in going there. The buildings that were built afterwards
15 are maybe those the defence is referring to, but those are not
16 the buildings that existed at that time. So I do not see why
17 should we go on site and waste a day concerning these buildings.
18 [15.59.23]
19 Now, regarding the pits, I heard the Nuon Chea defence say that
20 they could not imagine that 15000 bodies could have been buried
21 in these pits. I think everyone remembers specific testimony
22 stating that there was no longer any room in the site therefore
23 the bodies were buried outside -- outside of the first fence in
24 any case. Another thing regarding the visibility we may have of
25 the execution sites, of the interrogation site, well this
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1 interrogation -- the building no longer exists and the trees have
2 changed, they're no longer -- so I don't see how a trip to Krang
3 Ta Chan could really add much to what we already have in the site
4 identification report that was drafted by the Co-Investigating
5 Judges. Of course if in principle, it might be useful to travel
6 on site to understand the distances but here I don't think that
7 there is anything to be gained to travel there in relation to the
8 report that already exists.
9 [16.00.48]
10 MR. PRESIDENT:
11 Thank you Mr. Deputy. You may proceed, the International Lead
12 Co-Lawyer for Civil Party.
13 Please turn on your microphone.
14 MS. GUIRAUD:
15 Thank you, Mr. President. We've not had much opportunity to speak
16 up during the formulation of the application by the Nuon Chea
17 counsel. We object to this application for a site visit it is
18 rather belated. We are in a trial following investigations that
19 lasted several years and the Nuon Chea defence could have
20 requested such a site visit during the investigations. We are now
21 at the trial stage. To justify a trip by the Chamber to that
22 site, you would have to introduce a new element in relation to
23 the investigation, you have to show something that was not seen
24 at the time of investigation. The Prosecution has said something
25 and I agree with him, that we've been to the Krang Ta Chan site,
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1 none of the buildings are in place. There's a project that has
2 built new buildings -- Youth for Peace -- so to go to a site
3 where the original buildings no longer exist is completely
4 irrelevant at this stage of the trial. You would have to counter
5 balance the usefulness of such a trip and the fact that such a
6 trip would be very inconvenient to everyone, to the Chamber, the
7 Parties, it's a very, very serious matter. I don't think going to
8 visit that site would help bring the truth to light it would be
9 actually contrary to the manifestation of the truth.
10 [16.03.12]
11 In a criminal trial, it is normal that two versions be
12 confronted and it is not abnormal to see victims presenting their
13 own versions of the facts to the Accused and it is the work of
14 the Chamber to sort out all this evidence which is presented
15 before this Chamber and to decide for the truth. So, it is
16 therefore not necessary for us to visit the site based on the
17 testimony of the witness. Besides, the Nuon Chea defence could
18 have requested such a visit during the investigations. We would
19 also go to Kampong Cham -- Chhnang airport, that is another place
20 that could be visited but it is not normal for us to
21 systematically request that the Chamber go and visit a site,
22 sites which are discussed at this trial stage.
23 [16.04.20]
24 MR. PRESIDENT:
25 What about the defence team for Mr. Khieu Samphan, beside what
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1 you submitted in the previous time do you have anything further
2 to add?
3 MR. VERCKEN:
4 We're always favourable to site visits, if only to clarify the
5 matters regarding this mass grave which poses difficulties for
6 us, Mr. President.
7 MR. PRESIDENT:
8 I thank you very much for all the additional reasons and
9 information in relation to the request of Defence Counsel for Mr.
10 Nuon Chea, the request is to visit Krang Ta Chan security centre
11 and the Chamber will decide on this matter in due course.
12 The Chamber would like to inform the public that on Monday, the
13 Chamber will resume hearing Mr. Not Nov's testimony and following
14 Monday, the Chamber will proceed to hear witnesses as indicated
15 in the schedule already. The Chamber will hear, 2-TCW-860 and
16 822. The Chamber will inform all Parties in the email this
17 afternoon.
18 [16.06.10]
19 In another matter, the Chamber would like to inform Mr. Defence
20 -- Counsel for Mr. Nuon Chea, your request is to ask the Chamber
21 to adjourn for six weeks so that you have time to read -- and
22 read the new disclosure -- the disclosure of new documents by the
23 Co-Prosecutor from Cases 003 and 004 into Case 002. The Chamber
24 will make a decision on the request next week, please be
25 informed. The matter is a bit complicated and the Chamber needs
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1 time to discuss and decide and the Chamber has sourght some
2 information from Parties and as of now, we observe that more
3 documents have been disclosed by the Party and the Chamber will
4 use tomorrow -- we'll look and consider all the new disclosure of
5 those documents tomorrow and we will make a decision in due
6 course next week.
7 [16.07.38]
8 Now it is time for the adjournment. The hearing will resume on
9 Monday 16 March 2015, starting from 9 a.m. and as I have already
10 informed on Monday we will resume our hearing on the testimony of
11 Mr. Not Nov.
12 Security personnel, you are instructed to bring Mr. Khieu Samphan
13 and Mr. Nuon Chea back to the detention facility and have them
14 returned on Monday, 16 March 2015, before 9 a.m.
15 The Court is now adjourned.
16 (Court adjourns at 1608H)
17
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