PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES

Public Bill Committee

SCRAP METAL DEALERS BILL

First Sitting Tuesday 11 September 2012

CONTENTS Sittings motion agreed to. CLAUSES 1 to 14 agreed to, some with amendments. CLAUSE 15 under consideration when the Committee adjourned till Wednesday 12 September at half-past Nine o’clock.

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The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chair: MR JOE BENTON

† Allen, Mr Graham (Nottingham North) (Lab) † Lucas, Caroline (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green) † Baldry, Sir Tony (Banbury) (Con) † Nokes, Caroline (Romsey and Southampton North) † Browne, Mr Jeremy (Minister of State, Home (Con) Department) † Offord, Dr Matthew (Hendon) (Con) † Hanson, Mr David (Delyn) (Lab) † Ottaway, Richard (Croydon South) (Con) † Harris, Rebecca (Castle Point) (Con) † Pearce, Teresa (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab) † Hillier, Meg (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ † Walker, Mr Robin (Worcester) (Con) Co-op) † Winnick, Mr David (Walsall North) (Lab) † Hughes, Simon (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD) Kate Emms, Committee Clerk † Jones, Graham (Hyndburn) (Lab) † Kelly, Chris (Dudley South) (Con) † attended the Committee 3 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 4

operate. It also creates a criminal offence of operating Public Bill Committee without a licence, which will support compliance with the regime. The definition of a scrap metal dealer and Tuesday 11 September 2012 of what constitutes scrap metal is dealt with in clause 8, which we will move on to later. Some Members may question the need to regulate the [MR JOE BENTON in the Chair] scrap metal industry at all, but if regulation is considered necessary, which is the Government’s view, clause 1 is Scrap Metal Dealers Bill essential. The scrap metal industry is currently regulated by the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964, and there is 3.30 pm widespread agreement that the regime is outdated and The Chair: I welcome everyone to this important in need of reform, which is why the Government support Committee. Before we begin consideration of the Bill, the Bill. The current registration regime has several we must deal with the sittings motion, which stands in limitations and, in truth, does little to stop the purchase the name of the promoter, so I call Richard Ottaway. of stolen metal, which is one factor behind the rapid growth of metal theft over recent years. Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con): I beg to By requiring scrap metal dealers to obtain and comply move, with the terms of a licence, we will raise trading standards across the industry, particularly in relation to record That, if proceedings on the Scrap Metal Dealers Bill are not keeping and the procedures that apply when purchasing completed at this day’s sitting, the Committee do meet on Wednesday 12 September at half-past Nine o’clock and half-past One o’clock and paying for metals. The requirement to have a licence and on Thursday 13 September at half-past One o’clock. to trade will also allow local authorities better to manage who can operate in the sector, in that only operators If it assists the Committee, I propose that if we do who are deemed suitable by a local authority will be not finish today, we draw stumps at 6.30 pm. issued with a licence and there will be appropriate powers to tackle those who operate without a licence. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): I formally welcome The factors that should be considered when determining you to the Chair, Mr Benton. I happily concur with the suitability are dealt with elsewhere in the Bill, so I will hon. Member for Croydon South. not touch on them now. Question put and agreed to. Question put and agreed to. Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill. Clause 1 Clause 2 REQUIREMENT FOR LICENCE TO CARRY ON BUSINESS AS SCRAP METAL DEALER Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the FORM AND EFFECT OF LICENCE Bill. Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab): I beg to move Richard Ottaway: May I take the opportunity to amendment 62, in clause 2, page 1, line 13, at end add— express my delight that you are in the Chair, Mr Benton? ‘(c) a personal licence.’. Back in the mists of time, I may have served under your chairmanship, but it was sufficiently long ago for me The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss not to remember precisely when—we have both been the following: here for a long time. On behalf of everyone on the Amendment 67, in clause 2, page 1, line 21, after ‘site Committee, I welcome you to the Chair. manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. I also welcome the Minister, who may not have Amendment 68, in clause 3, page 2, line 20, after ‘site realised, a week or so ago, that he was destined to manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. represent the Government on this Bill. He may have thought that as my day job or my other job is as Amendment 69, in clause 3, page 2, line 22, after ‘site Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee and as he manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. has been a diligent Foreign Office Minister for the past Amendment 70, in clause 4, page 3, line 21, after ‘site two and a half years, he had got shot of me. However, manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. I am delighted that we are now working together on this Amendment 71, in clause 4, page 3, line 22, after ‘site important Bill. manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. I set out the purpose of the Bill in a lot of detail on Amendment 72, in clause 10, page 5, line 24, after Second Reading, and I do not intend to repeat it now, ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. other than to say that this serious issue has to be Amendment 73, in clause 11, page 6, line 9, after ‘site addressed. There has been an epidemic of metal theft in manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. this country, and I was delighted that the Bill received a unanimous Second Reading. It was the virtually unanimous Amendment 74, in clause 12, page 7, line 12, after view that the problem has to be addressed and that the ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. Bill goes a long way towards doing so. Amendment 75, in clause 13, page 7, line 24, after Clause 1 provides that any individual or business ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. engaged in any commercial activity in relation to the Amendment 76, in clause 13, page 7, line 26, after buying or selling of scrap metal will need a licence to ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. 5 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 6

Amendment 77, in clause 19, page 11, line 22, after Criminals’ other illegal activities would also be flagged ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. up. Should scrap metal yards be used as a front for Amendment 78, in clause 19, page 11, line 27, after other criminal activity, and there is an indication that ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. that sometimes is the case, the provision would allow that information to come before the licensing committee Amendment 79, in clause 19, page 11, line 28, after and the police. It would also allow those authorities to ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. be able to assess the suitability of the operation and the Amendment 80, in clause 19, page 11, line 29, after operator’s licence as well as individuals in the particular ‘site manager’, insert ‘or personal licence applicant’. business. The site operator could feel pressurised about people on the site who are operating under his site licence and Graham Jones: It is a pleasure to serve under your about whether the licence is vulnerable, so the increase chairmanship for the first time, Mr Benton, on what is in information will surely help him. Some big issues are quite a momentous day. The past 12 months have seen involved. There is no doubt that in decades gone by, the the issue of metal theft rise in the public’s mind. They underworld used scrap metal yards, and probably still are more conscious than ever of its impact. I thank the do. The Krays used scrap metal yards, and Hollywood hon. Member for Croydon South for leading on the films are full of dead bodies being sent to scrap metal Bill, which seems to have considerable support. I hope yards. We need to know who is on scrap metal yard sites that it will be enacted in the near future. and who is involved in the industry on a personal level. The Bill is very good but, going from 99% to 100%, Putting the burden on the operator is unreasonable and or whatever the uplift is, a couple of small changes assumes that the operator or manager will always be would make it better. One change would be the introduction present on site, which is not necessarily the case because of a personal licence as well as an operator’s licence. he may have several members of staff. It is grossly Nobody wants to add to local authorities’ red tape and unfair to put such a burden on the site manager in an bureaucracy. I certainly do not. My local authority is industry that probably does not have a good reputation stretched, as are the local authorities of other hon. and is difficult to manage. Members, but I do not think the proposal would bring Finally, let me turn to mobile collectors. Calling them extra red tape or burdens. We have a system at local an evasive group is not an unfair criticism. When I authority level for licensing taxis, with an operator’s made a freedom of information request about collectors licence and a personal licence. It would be advantageous in Lancashire, the police suggested that at least 12 were to have one system for a local licensing committee operating in Hyndburn, but my local authority did not rather than two. have even one itinerant mobile collector registered. It would be easy to replicate the way the licensing of When I asked the 14 authorities in Lancashire, I found taxis operates and have a personal and operator’s licence that 10 were registered, which I thought was a bit of an in the scrap metal industry. It would also help local improvement, only to find that nine were registered in authority licensing committees, because it would give Lancaster and one in Burnley. Twelve authorities have them more information about the fitness of the operator, no mobile collectors registered at all. and who exactly is being employed at various sites or in Mobile collectors are an evasive group of people. We vehicles, or at some of the lesser intermediate sites. It may register the driver of the vehicle, because many of would cover people who trade out of skips or out of the them are single businesses, but some may be operating back of industrial buildings. It is not just about scrap different vehicles, which raises an issue about managing metal dealers and mobile collectors; there are intermediaries different vehicles on the road. For example, if an operator as well. It would help to flag up who is dealing in or has two or three vehicles, how can he be a site manager handling metal and give the local authority more responsible for the drivers and the activities of the other information about the operator of the licence. It would vehicles operating under that business? also keep criminals in view; we know that they are operating in the sector. That is an important element for If an operator has a rogue employee, again it is unfair the police and for the Environment Agency and local for the site licensee to be persecuted for that. We could authorities working together. For those reasons, the have criminals knocking at the door of old age pensioners provision would be valid. because we do not have a system for assessing those in the industry who are engaging with people in our Is this more red tape? How big a problem would it be constituencies. There is a real issue about who is actually to introduce personal licences? I asked my local authority. operating. Whenever I, or others, stop a mobile collector, We have about five scrap metal yards that employ about their evasiveness can be quite clever. They may say, “I five individuals each: 25 employees. The police suggest wasn’t there. I didn’t know about it.” We will be putting that there are around 12 transient or mobile operators, licensing committees under undue pressure, because with two or three people in each vehicle. Possibly another they will have to decide whether to take away a licence 25 people might be working in the industry, with 75 at from a firm. They will have to decide whether the most, but probably fewer. operator is telling the truth about an employer who may If we consider taxis in my constituency, there are have been in another vehicle or about a manager who 400 to 500 personal licences. When we balance the cost might not have been in the vehicle at the time. They will of the introduction of a personal licence and the burden have to make a sharp distinction in deciding whether to on the local authority against the benefits, the benefits take a livelihood away from an individual. In my vastly outweigh the costs. It would be a significant step constituency, where there are 50 or 75 personal licences forward. We know that criminal elements operate on compared with 500 licences for taxi drivers, the proposal certain sites, and they would be flagged up if, like taxi would not be a burden and it would present the committee drivers, they had to get a personal licence. with flexibility in determining licences that come up for 7 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 8

[Graham Jones] to be constrained by the legislation and, as a result, we are more likely to achieve our objectives. At the same appeal or where there are problems. The case for introducing time, the criticism often made of Governments of all personal licences is overwhelming. It will not only help persuasions is that there is too much regulation and too the industry but will help licensees and site operators to much red tape. I have never heard a politician argue in manage their businesses. favour of more red tape in the generality, but I have heard a lot of politicians of all parties suggest more red 3.45 pm tape in the specific. We are trying to create the right balance and get that equilibrium. Both site and collector The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy licences— Browne): It is a pleasure to serve under your experienced chairmanship, Mr Benton. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South, who is an Graham Jones: Will the Minister give way? assiduous Chair of the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs. As the newly appointed Minister in the relevant Mr Browne: In a moment. Both licences require the Department, I am pleased to be present in a supporting licence holder and the site manager to be named. Even role for his Bill. without being named, however, all employees must Let me say quickly, because I do not want to be out of comply with the requirements of the licence, not least order, that the Government remain strongly committed with regard to the criminal offences created in clauses 10, to my hon. Friend’s Bill. We share the anguish and 11 and 12. An individual employee on a site, therefore, anger of Members in all parts of the House about what could not indulge in criminal activity without the fear has happened in the sector and about the numerous that the Bill, which we hope will become an Act, will stories of metal theft from war memorials, art exhibitions, apply to them. Under clause 8, further measures are cabling and church roofs. All those crimes are well stipulated to ensure that rogue employees are not behaving understood by our constituents. The Government and in a way that puts them beyond the law. Should an the Home Office have a strong desire to take new employee undertake any activity that brings into question powers to enable the police and others to deal more the suitability of the business to operate as a scrap effectively with the problem of scrap metal theft, and metal dealer, local authorities will be entitled to consider with dealers who collude in that practice. We are committed revoking the licence under clause 4. My point is that the to the Bill. Bill as it stands, and not amended in the proposed form, I am speaking to a string of amendments tabled by achieves the objectives that the Committee wishes it to the hon. Member for Hyndburn, but I recognise that achieve. The amendments would create an unnecessary private Members’ legislation is a collective effort. Everyone and considerable extra layer of administrative burden serving on the Committee shares the same overall objective, for local authorities, which will not substantially help so I do not want to take the position that I have deliver the objectives that we all share. sometimes seen Ministers take—mainly when I was in opposition—which seemed to be excessive inflexibility Graham Jones: I am grateful to the Minister for and perhaps a lack of willingness to acknowledge that giving way a second time, and for the conviviality of the Members on both sides of the House might have useful debate. I accept and share his view, and that of other ideas to contribute. The Government have views, but I Members: we all want to see the Bill go through. However, hope they are not so set in stone that we are not willing I want to press the Minister on something, because he at least to consider or accommodate in a mature way seems to suggest that it is his opinion, not a local some of the representations of Members who have authority one, that the proposals are burdensome. Will taken a long-standing interest in the area. he clarify, for the record, whether it is a local authority Having said that, I am getting off on a footing that opinion or the Minister’s own opinion? If it is a local might not be entirely agreeable to the hon. Member for authority one, will he tell us which authorities hold it? Hyndburn. The Government’s view is that clause 2 He mentions that employees will be liable for prosecution already introduces two licences, one for a site and the under the law, but that is provided that rogue employees second for a collector, and that introducing a third are caught. There is the presumption that those who act licence, for an individual, would be excessively onerous outside the law will be caught, and I am not sure that and burdensome upon local authorities and the owners such a presumption can be taken for granted. of sites.

Mr Browne: If a licensed individual broke the law and Graham Jones: I appreciate the Minister’s point of was not caught, the fact that they were licensed would view. Can he provide any empirical evidence to the no more make them subject to the force of the law, or Committee that local authorities consider a licence the consequences that would flow from their illegal burdensome? How many local authorities has he spoken activity, than if they were not licensed. It is the Home to? Can he present any evidence to the Committee Office’s view that we can achieve the objectives of the today that would clarify that view, or is it only his Bill, which are shared by all members of the committee, opinion? by introducing two licences. In case the Committee has overlooked this, the proposals Mr Browne: The point I am seeking to make is that in the Bill are far more onerous than the existing there is always a judgment to be made about how position, so we are taking a big step towards greater administratively burdensome legislation should be. regulation. I read the Hansard record of the Second Obviously, the more burdensome one makes it, the Reading debate over the weekend, and in that debate more one can claim that no areas of activity are failing Members criticised the Bill for being far too onerous, 9 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 10 and said that there was far too much regulation. We are In summary, requiring a site operator to comply with introducing substantial extra administrative burdens those more onerous conditions and an individual collector, for local authorities, but the Home Office’s judgment is who is non-site specific, will be a considerable additional that they are sufficiently substantial to achieve the burden. I would not wish the Committee to feel that we objectives that we all share, without going down the have taken only a timid half-step in the direction in further path that the hon. Member suggests. which we all collectively wish to go. We are putting a considerable burden on local authorities. As I say, we Rebecca Harris (Castle Point) (Con): Does the Minister feel that that burden is adequate to meet our collective agree that this is analogous to the situation of pub objectives. licensees? The licensees hold the licence but their staff are also liable if they commit a criminal offence, by Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ serving alcohol to under-age drinkers, for example. It Co-op): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, would not be sensible to licence every possible pub Mr Benton. I congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon employee, nor would it be feasible to do so, but the South on securing time for the Bill. system seems, nevertheless, to work well. I should declare an interest. I have been a non- remunerated trustee of the War Memorials Trust for Mr Browne: I will probably get into trouble with more than 10 years. One reason why I was keen to serve some lawyer if I concede that there is a precise analogy, on the Committee was the raft of metal thefts we have but I accept my hon. Friend’s point. The broad analogy been seeing across the public realm. We know that the appears to apply, which is that the site manager has Bill is supported by Network Rail, the Energy Networks responsibility for his or her site and the behaviour of Association, reputable scrap metal dealers, of whom the employees. In later clauses and amendments, we are there are quite a lot out there, the War Memorials keen to toughen up provisions regarding the potential Trust—I am here, obviously, as a Member of Parliament, loophole whereby it could be argued that an employee—a but I am a trustee of that trust, which supports the rogue employee if you like—is acting without the knowledge Bill—and the Local Government Association. of the site manager. We understand that concern, and It is a pleasure to serve on a private Member’s Bill are seeking to accommodate it, but we feel that two Committee with Government support—without that, licences is a sufficient burden, for the reasons I have just we would possibly not be here. To have secured the given. support of the Treasury is a small miracle. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on framing the Bill in a way that Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): The hon. Member has managed to garner broad support across the arena. for Hyndburn mentioned the position of councils, and Before I touch on some issues raised by clause 2 and it might help to say that the briefing that a number of the amendment, I would like to talk about some of the Members have received from the Local Government impact of metal theft, particularly on war memorials. Association mentions a licensing regime analogous to It is worth reminding members of the Committee why that of pubs and gambling organisations rather than the Bill is important. While there have been steps by making a comparison with taxis, as the hon. Gentleman Government to tackle metal theft previously, the law did. That might imply that local government, and certainly needs tightening up. some local government organisations, would support such an institution-based regime, rather than a personal The War Memorials Trust, the charity that deals with one. the preservation solely of war memorials across the country, receives some funding from English Heritage for preserving certain memorials. We estimate that on Mr Browne: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that average, around one report a week of a memorial suffering additional clarification. It is worth drawing to the theft or damage is received by the trust. Last November, Committee’s attention that the second type of licence—not around Remembrance Sunday, when war memorials the site licence but the collector’s one—would apply to were, effectively, advertised to the scoundrels who steal the individual collector, so there is that individual feature metal from them, there were three reports a week of for when there is no geographically-defined site. metal theft from war memorials. People who do that are clever. There have been Graham Jones: Just for the record, as I understand discussions about changing the law differently from the it—I stand to be corrected—regarding the licensee trade, Bill, and creating an additional or more severe offence to which the hon. Member for Castle Point referred, I for theft of metal from a war memorial. Sadly, I feel think one needs two licences, including a personal licence, that the people who steal metal from war memorials do to serve alcohol in off-licences. It is not just in taxis, but not care that they are stealing from war memorials in licensing as well, that we have personal and owners’ particularly—they want the metal wherever it comes and operators’ licensees. We have to look at the issue from—and that may not act as a deterrent. That is one through the eyes of local authorities and try to simplify of the reasons why I welcome the Bill and the way in it, and not create a duplicated system. which it will regulate the industry, if it gets a fair wind. The trust has embarked on other measures to try to Mr Browne: I do not want to try your patience, tackle the problem. I have heard, in discussions of the Mr Benton, by going around in circles. I am anticipating Bill outside this room, that there could be other methods debate on future clauses, but it is worth saying that the of doing that. The trust has been in collaboration with terms of the licence will be quite strict and onerous. the SmartWater foundation to introduce a scheme called, They include having regard to previous criminal activity “In Memoriam 2014”, recognising the centenary of the and there will be sanctions in place. start of the first world war. That will protect war 11 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 12

[Meg Hillier] In a way, I am sorry that, on a private Member’s Bill, we have already divided Opposition and Government; memorials with SmartWater, which is a genetic, chemical I do not think that that is a good way to proceed. The water that identifies where a piece of metal is from. division in the Committee, which I hope is minor, is That is fine up to a point. It is a deterrent, but once the between Members of Parliament who represent their metal is melted down, the deterrent effect is gone. The constituencies assiduously, as we all do, and the people who do that are clever. They often steal war Government. I welcome the Minister to his new position. memorial plaques where they cannot be seen. If a war I was pleased to hear him say that he will listen and take memorial is on a roadside, they will steal from the side note of the great expertise across the Committee, so that does not face the road, so that the theft will not be that we can improve the Bill. That is refreshing to hear detected. It is important that some of the measures on the first day of a Public Bill Committee. about holding on to metal for a period of time before We all have our own particular ideas for improving melting it down, which we will come to in other clauses, the Bill, but I say to all colleagues that the battle we are maintained, because sometimes it takes a while. must win is to pass the Bill. Whether we like it or not, it would be easy for Government, with so much else on 4pm their plate, to pull the plug and say, “We can’t be bothered. Get the Minister back in the Department; Not long ago, I was on a walkabout in my constituency we’ve got other priorities.” I am not suggesting that we when a local resident said, “It’s terrible—I came out should not propose amendments, argue passionately for one day and the downpipe outside my wall, which was them or vote on them, but I want us all to keep our eyes copper, had just been removed. It was not even a metre on the bigger picture, which is ensuring that we take long.” Metal theft is rife. People will steal it, whatever this unique opportunity and get the Bill to its next deterrents exist; they will still think it is worth doing. stage, so that we can do something practical for our That is why I welcome the measures in the Bill, which I constituents. think are proportionate. I am not in favour of extra regulation for the sake of it, but the measures are We all know of cases involving the railways, manhole important for saving our war memorial heritage, and covers or war memorials. To give a simple example, on ensuring that our railways run on time and that our Friday, I was at one of my local churches, St Martin’s, works of art are not destroyed. parts of which date back to the 1300s. The lead on the tower roof has historical graffiti on it that goes back to The issue of personal licences is interesting. I have the Victorian era. It is irreplaceable because it is a work some sympathy with my hon. Friend the Member for of art. It is part of the local culture and history, as well Hyndburn, but I also recognise that we want to put as being possibly £50-worth of lead. It has been stolen. legislation on the statute book to ensure that we can That is one tiny example; there are many more hurtful track those who deal in scrap metal, whether they and economically consequential examples, which I am operate from a site or are mobile collectors. The Minister’s sure we will hear as the Bill proceeds. proposal seems reasonable, but I think that the clause Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney could include space for amendments, perhaps made in South and Shoreditch listed a number of organisations regulations, if what is proposed does not work. that are behind the Bill—few are against it. One important Having sat on Committees over the past seven years group that is in favour of the Bill is the decent scrap or so, both on the Government Front Bench and as a metal dealers. They exist in great numbers, and they, as Government and Opposition Back Bencher, I know much as any of us, are strongly in favour of squeezing that we often want to write so much detail into a Bill out the illegitimate traders and the people who feed this that it can be changed only by further primary legislation. business of stolen scrap metal. I am delighted to serve Realistically, I think that all of us here know that it on the Committee, Mr Benton. You have let me range has taken a long time and a lot of effort for the hon. far and wide in my first contribution. I will try to be Member for Croydon South to get a Bill to this stage in much more in order in future. the House. The chance of it happening again during the next couple of Parliaments is relatively slim. It would Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): I am glad to see require the Government to be willing and co-operative. that the hon. Member for Nottingham North had the It might be a solution to the discussions that we have sagacity to cross the Floor to catch your eye more just had if we added a line—I have not tabled an easily, Mr Benton. I want to make only one contribution amendment formally, but maybe we could discuss it to this Committee stage, in my capacity as Second outside this room—to allow for further changes in Church Estates Commissioner. At one stage 10 churches regulation, should the Minister’s proposed regime not a day were having lead stripped from their roofs. I agree deliver as intended, because I think that we are all with everything that the hon. Member for Hackney united on the intent. I suggest that as one option. South and Shoreditch said and almost all of what the hon. Member for Nottingham North said. The hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch put the Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): It is a position very well. pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Benton. To follow up on what the hon. Member for Nottingham I congratulate the hon. Member for Croydon South on North said, as I understand it, the Bill has Government introducing the Bill, negotiating the slalom course set support. I suspect the system still works. When I was a for him, and getting to this point. We are being given a Minister there was something called the legislation remarkable, possibly unprecedented opportunity to do committee. I assume that this Bill has been ticked as something about an issue that affects every single one of being approved by that committee as a Bill that is our constituencies, regardless of party. acceptable to the Government. 13 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 14

I spent last Friday in the Chamber considering a I am grateful for the work of the hon. Member for completely different private Member’s Bill. A small Hackney South and Shoreditch on the War Memorials group of parliamentary colleagues see it as a sport, Trust. I passed through her constituency several times almost, to come along—I described them as sextons in the past few weeks going out to the Olympic park. I and pallbearers—to try to bury any private Member’s appreciate the War Memorials Trust’s tremendous support Bill. Quite often they are encouraged by the Whip on of the Bill, and the hon. Lady is not alone in her duty to try to bury any private Members’ Bills that have support. I am pleased that the Institute of Directors has not had their box ticked by the Government’s legislation announced its support, which may help my more committee. Sometimes they cannot quite work out the ideologically driven colleagues. The Bill’s supporters are difference between those private Members’ Bills that not lightweight. They include: Arts Council England; the Government are keen on, and those on which they the Church of England; the Energy Networks Association, are not. which includes BT and Network Rail; the Henry Moore I appreciate that my hon. Friend the Minister is Foundation; the Tate galleries; the British Metals Recycling responsible only for the conduct of this Bill, not for the Association, an important trade association; Ecclesiastical allocation of Government time, but I ask him to consider Insurance; and British Transport police. We have to giving the Committee an undertaking that he will go take the views of the hon. Member for Nottingham with my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South to North seriously and keep our eyes on the big picture. tell the Leader of the House that if there is any scintilla Although I can see where the hon. Member for of a suggestion that this Bill will be filibustered on Hyndburn is coming from, I think amendment 62 would Report and Third Reading, they will apply to him to result in additional cost and burden on the industry. He ensure that there is further consideration on Report in asked a straightforward and genuine question about Government time. The Bill had universal support on where the local authorities are on this. The Local Second Reading and clearly has considerable support Government Association’s brief states that it wants a across the Committee, albeit that there are some parts “proper licensing system,” comparable to the alcohol that, between us, we wish to interrogate. If it were and gambling licensing regimes, which is the point frustrated on Report and Third Reading, there would raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester. be real anger in the dioceses and churches I represent The LGA is comfortable with the regime set out in across England. I think that would apply to all sorts of the Bill. other sectors. The Bill sets out two categories of licence: the site The Minister needs to work out how he will get the licence and the collector’s licence. Between them, the Whips to call the attack dogs off and keep them in their licences cover all categories of person who might trade kennels on Report and Third Reading. If he cannot do in metal. The amendment does not define the purpose that, we will have to make it clear to them that sufficient or requirements of the licence it proposes, which would Government time will be made available to get the Bill potentially require every scrap metal dealer employee to through its remaining stages in proper and decent order. register, regardless of role or terms of employment. On whether individual employees are responsible for Richard Ottaway rose— the behaviour, individual employers can take action against their employees should their conduct warrant The Chair: Order. We have had sufficient preamble such action. Individual employees will also be criminally on the Bill’s merits. I warn the Committee that it must liable for their activities should they do anything that now stick strictly to the amendments. Although all the breaches the requirements in clauses 10, 11 and 12 to contributions so far are welcome, we have now moved on. verify the seller’s identification, not to pay in cash, and to complete records for every transaction. In Richard Ottaway: I have listened to your strictures, addition, they would also be liable for any further Mr Benton, but I hope you will allow me briefly to reply offence committed: for example, offences of handling to my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury. stolen goods under the Theft Act 1968 or breaches of We have got through Second Reading. There are a health and safety legislation. The hon. Member for group of MPs who are ideologically opposed to private Hyndburn is absolutely right to bring the matter to the Members’ Bills, and I have had a constant dialogue with attention of the Committee, but I believe that his concerns them. We can worry about Government time when we are covered by the terms of the Bill and I urge him to get there, but the matter has been addressed. I have withdraw the amendment. offered them a meeting with the scrap metal industry in On a point of clarification, I do not know exactly October, assuming the Bill passes through Committee, what I said earlier, but I was referring to the Local before Report and Third Reading. Hopefully, we can Government Association. assuage them and meet their views. I want to work with them, not against them. Indeed, one of them has already told me that he will not oppose the Bill. My hon. Friend 4.15 pm the Member for Banbury is right to be concerned, but Graham Jones: From my extensive conversations about there has been some thinking on that. the issue with the industry during the past 12 months I also welcome the remarks of the hon. Member for and my dealings with the residents of Lancashire, Nottingham North. Youngermembers of the Committee Merseyside and Manchester as well as the police authorities, may not be aware that, once upon a time, I was the I know that they would support the amendment and Member for Nottingham North—until I was defeated. want it to be pressed to a Division. Obviously, any contribution from a Member for Question put, That the amendment be made. Nottingham North is wise and important. We are right to follow his views. The Committee divided: Ayes 3, Noes 9. 15 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 16

Division No. 1] Amendments 19 and 46 add clarity by removing the requirement that a collector cannot operate from a site. AYES Collectors, by definition, do not have a site; if they had Hanson, rh Mr David Winnick, Mr David a site, they would need a site licence rather than a Jones, Graham collector’s licence, so there is no need to include stipulations for collectors regarding whether they have a site. NOES Amendment 47 may interest the Committee more, Baldry, Sir Tony Nokes, Caroline because it makes a more substantial change. Removing the words “house to house” and replacing them with Browne, Mr Jeremy Offord, Dr Matthew Harris, Rebecca “door to door” may seem to be a minor change, but the Hughes, rh Simon Ottaway, Richard amendment would enable collectors to collect from Kelly, Chris Walker, Mr Robin non-domestic properties—a house is interpreted as a domestic property, whereas a non-domestic property Question accordingly negatived. could have a door without being a house. The amendment gives collectors greater scope. It was felt to be unreasonable to prevent them from collecting scrap metal from Mr Browne: I beg to move amendment 18, in commercial sites where that was an entirely legitimate clause 2, page 1, line 15, leave out from ‘licence’ to end part of their business. of line 16. Meg Hillier: I support the amendment because it makes sense to limit bureaucracy for operators and to The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss streamline the process for local authorities. The Minister the following: highlighted an example from London, and as a London Amendment 19, in clause 2, page 2, line 4, leave out MP, although I do not have any such businesses actively from ‘area’ to end of line 5. working in my constituency, I think it would be ridiculous Amendment 46, in clause 19, page 11, line 1, leave out if one could cross a borough boundary without even from ‘person’ to ‘in’ in line 2 and insert being aware of it and thus inadvertently break the law. As long as there is a base in the local authority area that ‘who— is clearly identifiable with a postcode, it will be easy for ( ) carries on business as a scrap metal dealer otherwise than at a local authority to track down an operator that may a site, and be collecting from its area. That would be the same ( ) regularly engages, in the course of that business,’. arrangement as in other regulatory regimes, so it makes Amendment 47, in clause 19, page 11, line 3, leave out sense. ‘house to house’ and insert ‘door to door’. The words “door to door” make a difference, for the reasons outlined by my hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn. Because different types of operator, perhaps Mr Browne: As is invariably the case, the Government with different codes, may be involved, some control is want some clarity added to the Bill, which is what the necessary over who is collecting door to door from often four amendments will do. I will not detain the Committee quite vulnerable people, and that is better determined long, but will explain briefly the purpose of each very locally.The suggestion that one local authority licenses amendment. each site-based operator makes considerable sense. Without amendment 18, some scrap metal dealers Amendment 18 agreed to. with site licences would require many licences to conduct their businesses from a single site. Such matters are best Graham Jones: I beg to move amendment 63, in illustrated by example, as I found when trying to understand clause 2, page 2, line 1, at end add— the purpose of the amendment. If a scrap metal dealer ‘(e) be displayed clearly and visibly at the point of in Lambeth wished to open another site in Southwark, purchase and sale.’. they would require a separate licence from Southwark council as well as the licence they hold from Lambeth The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss council; but if they wished to collect metal from Southwark the following: to bring to their Lambeth site, their Lambeth licence would be sufficient for them to do that, and if they had Amendment 3, in clause 2, page 2, line 5, at end more than one site in Lambeth, that would also be fine, insert— because they would be licensed by Lambeth council. ‘(c) requires the licensee to display a large and visible Conversely, collectors have to have a licence for each identification badge on their vehicle(s), provided by area in which they operate, so if they operate in Southwark the local authority.’. and in Lambeth, they would have to have a licence from Amendment 64, in clause 2, page 2, line 8, at end both Southwark and Lambeth councils. The purpose of add— the amendment is to avoid penalising a site that collects ‘(c) must be visibly displayed alongside road tax disc; metal from areas outside the local authority in which (d) must be carried at all times by the collector; and that site is located. Some sites might be right on the (e) list all the vehicle registration details which are being boundary of a local authority so they might literally be used for the purpose of such business.’. unable to collect metal from the other side of the road and bring it to their site without the burden of getting Graham Jones: Amendments 63, 3 and 64 all deal an extra licence from a different authority. We feel that with strengthening the ability to police the legislation. the amendment is a sensible and practical way to head Under the Bill as drafted, only the police, the local off potential problems. authority and the Environment Agency can police its 17 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 18 provisions, because only they have the information to The mobile collectors and the general public would hand about whether people are operating within the feel a great deal of confidence, knowing that mobile terms of the Bill. Of course, if there is an exchange of collectors are licensed by the local authority with a cash between the purchaser and seller, the seller will visible licence. That would give much greater confidence also be aware that the law has been broken, but they in the legislation and would also have other minor would be complicit and therefore unlikely to complain. benefits. There is huge scope for extending the policing of the Bill by way of badging, as we do with taxis and other 4.30 pm licensing regimes, so that the general public would be Mr Browne: The Government ask the Committee not more aware that mobile collectors, at whom the amendment to accept this series of amendments. Clause 2 stipulates is aimed, are licensed by the local authority and that some criteria for the licence being given. Although the everything is probably in order, whereas operators without amendments do not directly change subsection (7), that a badge would be operating illegally and likely to be says, identified far more quickly. Having the public police legislation is as desirable outcome, because that eases “A licence is to be in the form prescribed by the Secretary of the burden on the police and local authority, barrelling State in regulations.” in on abuses and on operators that are not operating The amendments would tie to a greater degree than is within the law and offering the opportunity to identify currently envisaged the hands of the Home Secretary rogue traders much quicker and more easily. when she or one of her successors decides what form the licence will take. We do not regard that as necessary. If the amendment were made, mobile collectors would For example, the requirement to issue a badge could be be regarded as similar to taxi drivers: for example, a regarded as excessively burdensome on local authorities. simple, cheap magnetic number plate that must be displayed The requirement to collect a badge that had been issued at all times could be placed on the side of a vehicle, so to a licensee who no longer warranted the licence because that people could see precisely who is travelling up and they had offended may create an additional burden. down back alleys. In my constituency, a lot of metal is stolen by thieves who climb over back yards, or drive It might sound like a minor debating point for a around suburban estates and enter via the front or the Minister to put to the Committee, but essentially the back to take anything they can out of the garage. degree of flexibility has been allowed for a reason, Whatever they were carrying, people would see who rather than setting out precise requirements for the those operators were and what the number on the colour and size of the badge, where it would be hung vehicle was and could report that to the local authority, and how many would have to be shown at each site in or, if there was not a number, they could report that to order to comply. We share the objectives but are fearful the local authority or, more appropriately, the police. that the measures would be cumbersome. Containerisation is a huge issue that is not addressed in the Bill. The Bill covers scrap metal dealers, but Meg Hillier: Will the Minister give way? organised criminals in the industry are stealing metals such as those in overhead power cables, and some Mr Browne: Before I give way, I propose an analogy, evidence and analysis—or a guesstimate—seems to show though it is not absolutely precise. People who drive that some 8 million tonnes is going out of the country cars are required to have a driving licence but not, as in illegal exports in containers. There is some evidence envisaged by this series of amendments, to stick it on that those metals do not even pass through the scrap their windscreens next to their road tax disc. I understand metal industry. A lot of exported scrap metal goes to the point being made by the hon. Member for Hyndburn China to be reprocessed, because reprocessing does not but, for reasons similar to the ones I gave earlier, we are really happen in this country.Vehicle badging will introduce keen that the burden of regulation is not excessively a process of elimination for containers at ports, allowing prescriptive. ports authorities, police and highways authorities to identify stolen metal that is not badged and therefore is likely to have been stolen, meaning that those responsible Meg Hillier: I have a question about clause 2(7). As it would be in breach of the Bill. That is also an important is a matter of regulation, the Secretary of State could aspect of the Bill. It is not an onerous or expensive surely prescribe a minimum type of licence. I have seen provision. It is reasonable that those carrying metal in London’s Public Carriage Office the changes for identify themselves to the authorities and the general minicabs, which now have a very distinctive badge. public. The legislation that we all want to succeed could Whatever type of vehicle, be it a limousine or minicab at do so even more significantly if that happens. the cheaper end of the scale, it has to have a licence with Site licences should be visibly displayed so that people a number displayed. That is different from the analogy can know and be assured, on entering a premises or a the Minister raised of a driving licence. It does not site, that the operator is cautious. That would seem include any personal information. There is obviously obvious and perhaps unnecessary for those going to a a small cost to produce them, but it does mean that big scrap metal yard, but, as has been mentioned in anybody can see clearly that the operator is legitimate. many discussions, a lot of intermediary sites are neither Under subsection (7), could the Secretary of State in mobile collectors nor scrap metal yards, as might be regulations suggest something akin to the system used determined by passersby. People would not know whether for minicabs in London that different local authorities such sites, run by those making a living dealing out of could introduce along the lines they use for other regulatory skips or industrial units, or dealing in smaller quantities, regimes? That would keep costs low but would provide were licensed. It is particularly important to consider the much needed protection that my hon. Friend the those intermediary—the grey middle—sites. Member for Hyndburn outlined. 19 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 20

Mr Browne: My understanding is that the Secretary to take account of perfectly reasonable representations of State could do precisely that. Indeed, the Secretary that may be made to her about such areas as cost, of State could also do something broadly in line with proportionality and how prone to fraud the system is. what is envisaged in the amendments tabled by the hon. Member for Hyndburn, if she chose. Our nervousness is Graham Jones: We are having a good debate, but I about prescribing in greater detail the precise nature of must say to the Minister and the hon. Member for the licensing arrangements for the visible product. We Croydon South that the amendment is not prescriptive, regard it as worth while that the Secretary of State apart from its use of the word “large”, although that is should have the opportunity to consider whether the to ensure visibility. Given the localism agenda, I do not cost is justified, in terms of the burden put on the see why there is an objection to local authorities determining person applying for the licence, as well as whether we what is reasonable in terms of visibility, and that is what are being excessively prescriptive, whether the process we are discussing. Does not the Minister accept that would work in practice, whether the licences themselves local authorities are able to determine reasonably what would be too easily copied, whether there would be visible identification means, as they do with other licences, scope for fraud, or whether there would be practical particularly in relation to vehicles? considerations about licences being returned, if the holder of the licence were to infringe in some way. My point is not that the Government do not share Mr Browne: The hon. Gentleman talks about localism. the concerns set out by the hon. Member for Hyndburn In theory, the Secretary of State could choose to put a and others, but this is a question of whether the Government less onerous system on local authorities than that envisaged wish to constrain themselves to such a degree that the in his amendments. Alternatively, she could choose to Secretary of State would be prevented from dealing make the system more onerous and require even larger with considerations that members of the Committee badges than he envisages. It could cut both ways. might regard as reasonable because the Bill was so I have just been given a note, and it might help the tightly framed. We wish to retain a reasonable degree of Committee if I say that, following a conversation with flexibility—not absolute flexibility, obviously, because the Home Secretary, I am happy to provide in writing the clause makes all kinds of provisions—and we regard an indication of what form of identification she feels additional measures such as would work most effectively in practice. However, I “visibly displayed alongside road tax disc” accept that as she may not stay in her post for eternity, that might not provide ongoing satisfaction for the hon. as criteria that the Home Secretary does not necessarily Gentleman. Regulations under clause 2(7) will be made require to put an effective regime in place. after Royal Assent, but before the commencement of the legislation. Meg Hillier: Perhaps the Minister will indicate the Home Secretary’s views, given that it is her responsibility Mr Hanson: Will the Minister therefore consider to put forward regulations prescribing the form of the consulting with local authorities and police forces about licence under clause 2(7). The Minister might have to the undoubted merits of the suggestion made by my take such regulations through Parliament, but will the hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn and then reporting Government provide the time for that? There is merit in back to the House as part of the regulation-making having something very visible, because it would be process? We could then be assured that his view reflects difficult for anyone to tell the difference between one that of police forces and local councils, whether that is white van and another going around collecting metal. in his terms or those expressed by my hon. Friend. The bad, unscrupulous scrap metal collectors might not have properly licensed vehicles that could be tracked down. There is merit in having a kind of visible licence Mr Browne: I am happy to give that undertaking to that says, “Youare handing over something to a legitimate the right hon. Gentleman, the hon. Member for Hyndburn collector.” Will the Minister indicate the Secretary of and the Committee. I do not want hon. Members to State’s thinking and the time scale in which regulations think that we are operating at cross-purposes. There is might be introduced? value in having a clear demonstration of this licensing process, and in people understanding it and having the doubt removed about when they are transgressing. It Mr Browne: My point is that there are lots of activities may well be that the Home Secretary envisages a system for which a person requires a licence, but we do not that closely resembles that put forward in the amendments. necessarily stipulate in legislation the precise terms of I am more than happy to discuss this, but I just ask the how that licence should be produced and displayed. We Committee to give the Home Secretary the flexibility to want to retain a degree of flexibility. It may well be that make a judgment about precisely what form that system the Secretary of State, after being advised by Parliament may take after taking account of a range of factors that and others, thinks that a visible badge is the right way to she feels are appropriate, such as the potential for fraud proceed, although I suppose somebody might challenge and cost. I think that all members of the Committee what constitutes would accept that it would be reasonable for her to “a large and visible identification badge”, consider such factors. as set out in amendment 3. I would not want the Secretary of State to fall foul of the amendments on the Mr Walker: I want to add one other factor that the basis that such as badge was not as large as that Home Secretary should take into account. One of the envisaged by the hon. Member for Hyndburn. It might things that motivated me to get involved with this seem that I am making a trivial point, but it is not Committee was my experience talking to neighbourhood entirely trivial, because flexibility allows the Home Secretary watch organisations in my constituency. They feel strongly 21 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 22 about the threat of scrap metal theft and want to be results of the consultation should be published in due able to do something about it. Greater visibility would course as part of a statement by the Minister on the help such organisations and other volunteers to combat regulations? scrap metal theft. I understand the need to maintain flexibility and the Home Secretary’s need to be able to take sensible decisions, but it is important that she bears Graham Jones: I agree with my right hon. Friend. I in mind the role that neighbourhood watch organisations would just add “the industry” to that list. can play in dealing with scrap metal theft.

Mr Browne: I accept that point; we all share the same Mr Browne: Will the right hon. Member for Delyn objectives. give way? I hope that the hon. Member for Hyndburn will not press the amendment to a Division. We want a system Graham Jones: I am happy to give way— that is onerous on scrap metal dealers, but that is not unduly onerous on legitimate scrap metal dealers. We want a system with proportionate costs. We want the The Chair: Order. I think that that was a definite Home Secretary to have scope to exercise discretion on intervention. Does the Minister want to continue? the precise details of the scheme so that it is likely to be as effective as possible. Greater flexibility will allow for tweaks to be made over time on the basis of good Mr Browne: It has got complicated, Mr Benton. practice, but that would be harder to achieve if the I am happy, through the hon. Member for Hyndburn, Home Secretary’s choices were restricted after the Bill is to communicate to the right hon. Member for Delyn passed. We all envisage something similar, but I am just that such an exercise with those types of representative making a plea that the Home Secretary may bring what bodies was what I had in mind. The Home Secretary she might have in mind to the attention of Committee could carry out such an appropriate consultation speedily, members, and that hon. Members will work on the and that would inform the process and, I hope, satisfy basis that she will seek to act in good faith in line with the Committee. I undertake to do that. their sentiments.

4.45 pm Graham Jones: Given what the Minister has said, Richard Ottaway: If the hon. Member for Hyndburn I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. presses the amendment to a Division, I am afraid that I Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. will not be able to support it, for the reasons that the Amendment made: 19, in clause 2, page 2, line 4, leave Minister set out. The right hon. Member for Delyn out from ‘area’ to end of line 5.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) made a sensible suggestion to which the Minister responded favourably, so I hope that the hon. Member for Hyndburn Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand will withdraw the amendment. part of the Bill.

Graham Jones: Given the Minister’s comments, I am Richard Ottaway: We have had a good debate on this inclined to withdraw the amendment, but will he clause, so I will not delay the Committee other than to confirm that he will write to all police authorities and say that the clause authorises the licensee to carry out local authorities as part of a consultation on vehicle business as a scrap metal dealer in the local authority badges and make the information publicly available on area, whether that be operating a site or collecting from the timetable that he described before the Bill comes door to door. The clause creates two separate licences. into force? The first is a site licence, which should be obtained by any business that operates from a specific site, or sites, Mr Browne: I am a little reluctant to concede that I within a local authority area that is used to buy and sell will write to all local authorities and police authorities, scrap metal or where the business of a motor salvage but I certainly give an undertaking that a considerable operator is carried out. A site licence will cover all the number of representative bodies will be consulted so premises operated by that business in the local authority that we can ascertain the views of people in police and area. The clause, as amended, will allow site licence local authorities. It might be excessively burdensome to holders to collect metal from any local authority area. trawl absolutely as widely as the hon. Gentleman suggests, The second licence is for mobile collectors, who are but I hope that his objections will be served by the referred to under the 1964 Act as itinerant collectors. undertaking that I have just given. Those individuals collect metals and are reliant on selling such metals to the scrap metal industry. The Mr Hanson rose— clause requires that collectors obtain a licence in each local authority area from which they will collect. That is Graham Jones: I give way to my right hon. Friend. right as it will allow local authorities to have control over the individuals who operate in their areas. That differs from a site licence, where holders can collect Mr Hanson: Does my hon. Friend agree that, as a from any local authority area. minimum, it would be appropriate to consult the Local Government Association and the Welsh Local Government Question put and agreed to. Association, the Association of Chief Police Officers Clause 2, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand and, perhaps, the British Transport police, and that the part of the Bill. 23 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 24

Clause 3 Government amendment 22, in clause 3, page 3, line 7, at end insert—‘() any other local authority;’. ISSUE OF LICENCE Amendment 6, in clause 3, page 3, line 8, at end add ‘and other environmental groups’. Mr Browne: I beg to move amendment 20, in clause 3, Amendment 7, in clause 3, page 3, line 9, leave out ‘an page 2, line 33, leave out ‘subsection (2)—’ and insert officer of a police force’ and insert ‘the chief constable ‘this section— of a relevant police authority’. () “site manager” means an individual proposed to be named in the licence as a site manager,’. Mr Hanson: May I reiterate, Mr Benton, what a pleasure The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss it is to serve under your chairmanship? the following: The official Opposition—Her Majesty’s Opposition— Amendment 21, in clause 3, page 2, line 35, leave out support the Bill in general terms, but we have tabled a ‘that subsection’ and insert ‘this section’. number of amendments. I just want to place on record my thanks to the hon. Member for Croydon South for Amendment 48, in clause 19, page 11, line 25, leave his courtesy in discussing the Bill, both prior to and out from ‘site’ to end of line 27. after Second Reading. Amendment 53, in schedule 1, page 13, line 23, leave However, there are a few amendments that we have out ‘site manager’ and insert ‘individual proposed to be tabled. Amendments 5, 6 and 7 to clause 3, which stand named in the licence as a site manager’. in my name, are designed to be helpful, as are all my Amendment 54, in schedule 1, page 13, line 26, leave amendments—genuinely, on this occasion—and to out ‘site manager’ and insert ‘individual proposed to be strengthen the Bill and provide consistency of approach named in the licence as a site manager’. across the country. As you will know, Mr Benton, clause 3 is about the Mr Browne: Amendments 20, 21, 48, 53 and 54 are issue of a licence. Clause 3(1) states: grouped together as they seek to clarify the use of the “A local authority must not issue or renew a scrap metal term “site manager” throughout the Bill. Amendment 20 licence unless it is satisfied that the applicant is a suitable person seeks to ensure that local authorities consider the suitability to carry on business as a scrap metal dealer.” of all individuals proposed to be named in the licence as The rest of clause 3 proposes how the local authority a site manager at the point when the licence is being determines that activity. applied for. That is built upon further by amendment 48, Clause 3(7) states: which clarifies that the term “site manager” should only be used to define individuals who have day-to-day “The authority may consult other persons regarding the suitability of an applicant, including in particular— management control of a licensed site, rather than an individual manager of a proposed site. (a) the Environment Agency; (b) an officer of a police force.” Amendment 21 seeks to amend a drafting error in clause 3(3). The current wording states that a “relevant I welcome Government amendment 22, which looks at offence” committed by site managers is to be considered local authorities, but I wish to draw the Committee’s as part of the suitability test attention to two points about clause 3(7). The first is the word, “may”. Amendment 5 would delete the word, “for the purposes of that subsection”. “may”, and insert the word, “must”. That is a simple That is incorrect, since a “relevant offence” needs to be approach to ensure that we have consistency across the considered for the purposes of “this section” as a whole. country in relation to consultation. Finally, amendments 53 and 54 seek to clarify the For example—I pick these constituencies randomly—in application process as outlined in schedule 1, making it the constituency of the hon. Member for Hendon, clear that applications for a site licence should be Barnet council “may” decide to consult the Environment accompanied by information relating to the Agency and a police officer, whereas in the constituency “individual proposed to be named in the licence”. of the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old The amendments reflect the change made to the definition Southwark, Southwark council “may” decide not to do of a “site manager”by amendment 48, so that applications that. Alternatively, in the constituency of the hon. are not accompanied by information relating to licensed Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch, the council site managers; rather, information is provided on all “may”decide to consult the agency and the police, whereas proposed managers. Alternatively, in summary the definition in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for of a “site manager” was thought to be a bit loose and Erith and Thamesmead the council “may” decide not to the amendments seek to tighten it. do that. In London alone, we would potentially have Amendment 20 agreed to. four approaches, because the word “may” allows an authority to decide whether to consult the Environment Amendment made: 21, in clause 3, page 2, line 35, leave Agency. Information from the Environment Agency out ‘that subsection’ and insert ‘this section’.— may or may not be supplied. The word “must” simply (Mr Jeremy Browne.) gives certainty that the authority will consult as part of their consideration of subsection (1), which concerns Mr Hanson: I beg to move amendment 5, in the suitability of a person to carry on business as a clause 3, page 3, line 6, leave out ‘may’ and insert ‘must’. scrap metal dealer. The deletion of “may” and insertion of “must” gives The Chair: With this, it will be convenient to discuss consistency of approach from every local authority: in the following: considering subsection (1), every local authority must 25 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 26 consult the organisations in subsection (7). I support the interest of the law, and they reappear either with the the Environment Agency and I am happy for it to be same sole trader, the same single director or directors, consulted. I have suggested that or a combination of directors, under another name. It is “an officer of a police force” important to ensure that we do not lose the intelligence be deleted from subsection (7)(b), and the words and history. “the chief constable of a relevant police authority” When we have looked at this group of amendments and the other amendments to do with whether somebody, be inserted. Again, it might be that such matters will be or a company, is suitable, I am keen that we look at who dealt with by officers of local authorities. Even under the director is, who the secretary is, and so on. We also “may”, an officer of a local authority may consult the have to look at local authorities’ engagement with the local PC that they know or the local superintendent or company—whether it has been refused, what its history inspector. They may give a view as the local superintendent, is—so that we do not remain blind to the use of company local PC, or local inspector. If they consult the chief law to disguise whom we are dealing with. That is a constable, the chief constable will undoubtedly delegate common problem for consumers—not necessarily in it down, but in delegating it down it will have been dealt this industry alone. Recently, I have had other dealings with by the force, not by an individual officer. My with constituents who have not been paid by a trader, amendment is designed to strengthen “may” to “must”, whom they then discover is trading under another name and to give a senior level of authority to the consultation very happily—doing business down the road and clearly that is undertaken. being paid for something else. We must ensure that I have also included “other environmental groups”, people are not allowed to get away with that. There are which I accept is a woolly statement and not one that a lot of good practitioners, good scrap metal dealers—I legislation likes. When I was a Home Office Minister, I, have some in Southwark, and there are many others—whom too, was passed notes by the officials here today. If such we need to ensure are allowed to get on with business an amendment had been proposed by the then Opposition, reputably and whom we need to support. I am sure that notes would have been passed to me and drawn to my attention. I accept that it is a woolly 5pm statement, but I would welcome the Minister’s view on whether we should widen “Environment Agency” to Graham Jones: I sympathise with the right hon. “other environmental groups”. If the Minister feels that Gentleman’s points. Does he consider Her Majesty’s that is woolly, I am happy not to press that amendment. Revenue and Customs to be one of the organisations to However, I feel strongly that “must” should replace which he refers? HMRC has been heavily involved in “may”. I feel strongly that Operation Tornado and other initiatives to combat “an officer of a police force” metal theft. It clearly has a stake as regards some of the larger sites—a considerable amount of cash was found is too general and too specific and could relate to at some of them during Operation Tornado, and HMRC anybody. The chief constable has the authority and was tracing all of that. That would be relevant to should be given that authority. whether someone should have a licence to operate or a I welcome the amendment that the Minister has licence to operate across several sites. proposed. In doing so, may I welcome him to his post? It is a great privilege to serve at the Home Office. I am Simon Hughes: The hon. Gentleman makes a good sure he will enjoy it. We look forward to dealing with point: HMRC is a relevant player. Like most members him when he explains which bit of the Home Office he of the Committee, I am keen to have a smaller Bill, is ultimately dealing with. Some of us in the Opposition rather than having lots of extra things added in. None will deal with him on those matters in due course. the less, I hope—the right hon. Member for Delyn made the same point—that we do not get stuck with the Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) same old phrase, which might come off the word processor (LD): Mr Benton, welcome to the Chair. It is a pleasure in any Department, to describe something. For example, to serve under you. I thank my hon. Friend the Member clause 3(7) states: for Croydon South for bringing forward the Bill. I have “The authority may consult other persons regarding the suitability spoken before on this issue in the House. Like many of an applicant, including in particular…an officer of a police colleagues, I have a constituency history of noticing force.” that the law clearly needed to be improved and therefore I know that last phrase is the traditional term of art, but the opportunity to contribute a little to this debate was the logic is that we go to the head of a force who then much appreciated. delegates the responsibility. I hope that we can be I want to say two things. First, I am sympathetic to sensible and imaginative in getting the right words, so the argument made by the right hon. Member for that the Bill says what it means and so that people Delyn. I will obviously listen to what my hon. Friend reading it can understand it as clearly as possible. the Member for Taunton Deane—the new Minister—will The obvious players—the hon. Member for Hyndburn say. I welcome him to his new job. I will also listen to mentions one—should be seen to be people with whom what the sponsor of the Bill will say. One thing that I checks are carried out, certainly including the Treasury, hope the amendments will address is the mischief of HMRC, the police, the Environment Agency and the tracking back, as it were, through people and companies local authority. Environmental groups, I accept, are a that were existing under one guise and now exist under slightly broader issue. That information will be out another. In the world of small businesses, the rogues there, and they could be covered by something along often trade under one name. They then disappear under the lines of “other groups with an appropriate interest”. that name, either because they have gone bankrupt, Obviously I am happy to hear what colleagues say, but because of financial difficulties or because they attracted in the end we must get it right. 27 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 28

Graham Jones: To return to the issue of exports, the Mr Browne: I thank my hon. Friend. Indeed, a scrap UK Border Agency might be relevant in an area with metal dealer who has operated in a quite a confined a port. geographical area might seek to expand his business into another part of the country. It would not be Simon Hughes: There are ways of dealing with the unreasonable for the authority there to ask the authority hon. Gentleman’s points without ending up with a in the area where the dealer had predominantly operated whole list a mile long—we could have government whether it had ever had reason to withhold a licence agencies, secondary legislation, guidance as to who can from him. There is nothing to stop that happening now. be consulted and so on. I am keen to get some clear Members of the Committee may think that the amendment legislation for people in the business and who deal with is unnecessary, but we saw some value in it, partly for the business and for prospective punters who are looking reasons of consistency with other parts of the Bill. It is for loopholes through the system. not particularly controversial. I shall mention my example once and then I shall not It would be slightly more controversial if amendments 5, have to do so again: people in my constituency got most 6 and 7 were agreed to by the Committee. Then it would agitated recently not because of churches or railway become a requirement, rather than just an option, for lines, although those might have been reasons, but the local authority to consult other local authorities. It because two valued works of art suddenly disappeared—the is worth reminding the Committee that there are quite a Barbara Hepworth sculpture down in the south of the lot of obligations on the licensing authority. Subsection (1) borough and a lovely statue, on the wall in Rotherhithe, states: of one of my most eminent predecessors, Alfred Salter, “A local authority must not issue or renew a scrap metal licence unless it is satisfied that the applicant is a suitable person a great Member of Parliament for Bermondsey. They to carry on business as a scrap metal dealer.” were seen by many visitors, but were there one day, gone the next—nicked. They were of no real value in scrap Subsection (6) states: terms, but of huge value in historical, local, cultural “The authority must also have regard to any guidance on determining suitability which is issued from time to time by the and interest terms. That really offended people. Secretary of State.” We want to ensure that the so-and-sos—I could use a I would not wish the Committee to form the impression six-letter word—who think that they can get away with that this is very loosely defined. The bit that the right it in the end know that—[Interruption.] There are hon. Member for Delyn seeks to change from “may” to boundaries of parliamentary appropriateness, but I know “must” is about a consultation process in which other what we would call them in Bermondsey. They should views may be sought. The Government are nervous not be able to find loopholes through the system. That about this point, because the list is not exhaustive. is what we are about: having tight legislation that catches Local authorities can—may if they wish—consult any the people who abuse the system but ensures that good number of organisations if they feel that that is necessary traders have a good business and that in the end we have in order to do their job properly. We are talking not legislation that is readable, easy to understand and about a definitive list, but merely a recommendation. means what it says. There may be circumstances in which a particularly respected bona fide dealer has been operating for decades, Mr Browne: With your permission, Mr Benton, I will is extremely well known in a tightly prescribed area, and speak to Government amendment 22 and then renews their licence on a periodic basis. The absolute amendments 5, 6 and 7 in the name of the right hon. requirement in law to consult the Environment Agency Member for Delyn. Government amendment 22 concerns may not be deemed to be necessary by the local authority. the person whom it is recommended that authorities It may wish to do that, but we feel that it would be consult although, as I will say in a moment, they are not excessively onerous to require it to do so in those types obliged to do so. Subsection (7) gives the Environment of circumstances, which is why we do not support Agency or an officer of a police force as examples of amendment 5. organisations that could be consulted. The amendment Amendment 6, as the right hon. Member for Delyn would add “any other local authority”. That gives a acknowledged, is somewhat woolly. I am not sure what little more consistency to the Bill but in practical terms the definition of “other environmental groups” is. If the it would make sense to consult another licensing authority hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion were still here, she if there were reason to doubt the record of the person may have regarded a consultation with her as being a presenting himself or herself. Other licensing authorities stipulation under amendments 5 and 6, if both were to are likely to have relevant background information, so be passed. The Environment Agency is a clearly understood it was felt useful to recommend that that conversation group, and the term “environmental groups” in broad, take place. I do not think that it is particularly controversial. non-specified terms is too loose for the Bill. Amendment 7 puts a routine burden on very senior Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con): Senior officers police officers. If amendment 5 were passed, chief constables often move from one local authority to the neighbouring would be required to approve every single roving or site authority, or to one nearby. The hon. Member for scrap metal licence in their area of jurisdiction, which Walsall North is here; I know that officers from my seems a rather routine task for an officer of such seniority. local authority in Dudley have worked for Walsall and vice versa. These officers also take their expertise with Mr Hanson: The chief constable would not have to them. It would be a good idea for local authorities to approve the licence application. The simple requirement talk to each other at a senior level and exchange information. is that the authority must consult the chief constable, That is often done on a personal level through a relationship and therefore the force as a whole. Let me give the with an officer who once worked with another officer in Minister an example. In Flintshire, the local police a neighbouring authority. officer who may be consulted could be the superintendant 29 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 30 or the inspector. The chief constable might have wider Opposition Members have conceded that if someone information to hand in the wider force that shows that went along to the chief constable in Avon and Somerset the scrap metal dealer is not suitable for a licence. It is and asked him what he thought of all the applications simply a delegated matter. An application will land on he had received from Taunton Deane borough council, the chief constable’s desk and be delegated down. he would say that he had not read them, because they would have passed so quickly across his desk. The Opposition appear to be putting a requirement on the Mr Browne: My suspicion is that it will be delegated chief constable that he would not be able to discharge to to his satisfaction. “an officer of a police force”, as stipulated under subsection (7)(b). The Government Mr Hanson: Let me engage in some active negotiation are arguing that councils have all kinds of obligations with the Minister. I will not push amendment 7. However, placed on them under the legislation, but we should like regarding amendment 5, if it is a good thing for the to have a degree of flexibility in the consultation, particularly authority to consult the Environment Agency and because in the case of some applicants—it may be just a small minority of them—it would not be necessary, or “an officer of a police force”, should not be a requirement, to consult that widely if whoever that might be, why is the Minster allowing that there was confidence in the local authority that that an officer of a local authority “may” take that decision, person was suitable. As for the level of organisations rather than “must”? There might be information with consulted, it is felt by the Government that those stipulated the Environment Agency, or with whichever officer of a in the legislation are adequate. police force is consulted, that might have a material impact on the authority’s issue of a licence under subsection Meg Hillier: The Minister said—I paraphrase—“In (1), yet the Minister says that it is a matter of choice for my view, this would be handed on to an officer of the the local authority to consult, not a matter of need. He police force.” There is a difference between the local might as well not put the provision in the Bill, because chief constable delegating it to the right officer of the there is no legislative framework for “may” consult; the police force, and any officer of a police force being the authority “may” consult whether subsection (7) is there statutory consultee, as is provided for in subsection (7). or not. Let us talk through what would practically happen. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn has said, Mr Browne: Yes. this would land on the desk of the chief constable. In my area, it could be done at borough level if that were Mr Hanson: So why put it in? If the Minister thinks more appropriate, because the Metropolitan police has that it is important that the Environment Agency and a slightly different set-up. If it happened in my area, the police forces “may” be consulted, why not make it borough commander would receive it and it would be “must” be consulted? delegated, probably without him even having sight of it, to the relevant officer or officers, rather than just any Mr Browne: I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point. I officer. I have a number of neighbourhood police teams may defer to the person whose Bill it is on why subsection (7) in my area, so if the scrap metal merchant was based in is in the Bill, on the basis that the authority may consult their area, it might be good to consult them, depending whomever it wishes—nothing in the Bill prevents the on what was going on. If there was a suspicion that that authority from doing that. It may consult the right hon. scrap metal dealer had a wider area of work, then that Gentleman—we could add that as an amendment as would be picked up much more effectively at the higher well. What we are nervous about is obliging the local level of a police authority. authority to consult a list of organisations in all 5.15 pm circumstances, even when it has good reason to believe that that is not necessary. If we make consulting a Mr Browne: Let us have an example. A scrap metal requirement rather than a suggestion, it makes more site dealer in Taunton Deane borough council administrative sense to make the list exhaustive, just to ensure that area applies for a licence to operate the site. The legislation there are no organisations that could have been consulted puts all kinds of requirements on the local authority, that are not stipulated in the legislation. and also suggests that it may wish to consult widely on the suitability of the applicant and the sites with, for example—this is not an exhaustive list—the Environment Mr Hanson: Let me give the Minister an example. If Agency, the local police and, if amendment 22 is agreed the authority satisfies itself under subsection (1), without to, other relevant local authorities. There is a big difference consulting the Environment Agency or a police force, between that and saying that when a person, perhaps a that a licence is suitable, and subsequently it comes to door-to-door collector, walks into Taunton Deane borough light that the police force had information that would council’s offices, the council “must” consult the chief have had an impact on a decision under subsection (1), constable of Avon and Somerset police, whose headquarters what liability does the authority have? are 50 miles away in Bristol—he has one of the biggest force areas in the country—and not the relevant chief Mr Browne: Indeed, but then one could draw the list superintendent in Taunton. People might regard the even more widely, to include all kinds of organisations latter as a more sensible or suitable level at which to that might have relevant information. For example, check on the reputation of an individual in Taunton under subsection (7)(b) Deane. “an officer of a police force” Under amendments 5 and 7, the council “must” could include an officer of the British Transport police. consult the chief constable of Avon and Somerset, and It would not necessarily have to be someone in the we regard that as excessively prescriptive. police force that geographically was responsible for the 31 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 32

[Mr Jeremy Browne] authorities will choose to consult on all applications, and some will not. In the spirit of localism, that might site within which the person wanted to operate. If there be a good thing. was a requirement, which is what the right hon. Gentleman However, there is also the spirit of ensuring that we says, rather than just a “may”, we would have to include have traders who, in accordance with clause 3(1), are a list of the organisations that “must” be consulted. To “suitable” applicants to carry on a business as scrap have recommendations of that sort rather than an metal dealers. The police might have information of exhaustive list would probably not be satisfactory, if it which the local authority may not be aware. Hanson were an absolute requirement. Rag and Bone Ltd in Delyn may have been operating fairly for many years, but the police may have information Mr Walker: The Minister has mentioned a number of that it is not. The police might or might not want to times a situation where local authorities might feel that volunteer that. If the authority has a statutory duty to someone is legitimate before they consult on them. Is consult the Environment Agency and a police force, the there not another important situation that we need to police force will have to respond to that “must”, rather deal with, where the licensing authority has information than “may”. that someone should not be a scrap metal dealer and In the spirit of co-operation, I will take it that the should not be licensed? The authority should not be hon. Member for Croydon South wishes to consult forced to go through a long and arduous consultation Home Office officials. However, before I withdraw the process, but should be free to act. Would we not want amendments, I seek to know at what stage that consultation our local authorities to be able to act without having will take place and whether he will agree to report back to go through the process of writing to numerous to me by letter on the outcome, so that there is the organisations? potential for an amendment on Report or in another place. Mr Browne: My hon. Friend makes a good point. If somebody is clearly unsuitable, why should the local Richard Ottaway: I am not in a position to bind the authority be obliged to waste the time of people at the Home Office; I am simply promoting the Bill. The right Environment Agency when they already know the outcome? hon. Gentleman made the point, with regard to amendment 5, that the police may have some information. I have spent a lot of time in recent weeks talking to the Mr Hanson: If that is the case, why do later clauses police and local government about this. If the police allow for 21 days and an appeal, and people to operate had information, local government would certainly know even though they have been denied a licence in the first about it because the co-operation of local government place? We can return to that later. is needed to get into the yard and to carry out action. In active negotiation, I will not press amendments 6 We will discuss that later. and 7. However, if the hon. Member for Croydon South I hope that I have put the right hon. Gentleman’s felt that it was merited to mention that the Environment concerns to rest, but I cannot agree to the amendment Agency and the police force may be consulted, those are and am not in a position to make any offers to him. two organisations put in the Bill as potentially having information that will materially impact on subsection (1). At the moment, in the Bill, consulting is left to the Mr Hanson: In the spirit of co-operation, I will press discretion of the local authority, rather than being the amendment to a vote. compulsory. I wish the Minister and the hon. Member Question put, That the amendment be made. for Croydon South to consider “may” and “must”. In The Committee divided: the spirit of co-operation, I will not take forward the Ayes 5, Noes 8. concerns dealt with in amendments 6 and 7. Division No. 2]

AYES Richard Ottaway: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Hanson, rh Mr David Pearce, Teresa Hillier, Meg Worcester put his finger on it. I can see what is being Jones, Graham Winnick, Mr David attempted here, but one has to trust the local authorities to a degree. They have discretion, and if they conclude that Hanson Rag and Bone Ltd, operating in Delyn, NOES has behaved impeccably, as I am sure it would, for three Baldry, Sir Tony Nokes, Caroline years, why should they be bound by “must” to recheck Browne, Mr Jeremy Offord, Dr Matthew and re-consult? One must give the local authority the Harris, Rebecca Ottaway, Richard discretion. I will ask the Home Office to look at the Kelly, Chris Walker, Mr Robin point and review it. I am grateful to the right hon. Member for Delyn for his words. He has presumably Question accordingly negatived. said he is withdrawing amendment 5. Amendment made: 22, in clause 3, page 3, line 7, at end insert— Mr Hanson: I am not necessarily withdrawing the ‘() any other local authority;’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) amendment. I am trying to be helpful; we do not want to delay the Committee. The words “may consult” in Mr Browne: I beg to move amendment 23, in the Bill are worthless, because the authority may or may clause 3, page 3, line 10, at beginning insert not consult. There will be inconsistencies between ‘If the applicant or any site manager has been convicted of a relevant authorities, both in London and in other areas. Some offence,’. 33 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 34

The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss 5.30 pm the following: The Government oppose amendments 1, 2 and 65, Amendment 1, in clause 3, page 3, line 10, leave out and I will explain why. Amendment 2’s insertion of ‘one or both’ and insert ‘any’. “other such conditions as are consistent with preventing crime” Amendment 2, in clause 3, page 3, line 16, at end seems extraordinarily wide, covering crime in all its forms. add— If Government amendment 23 were passed, we could ‘(c) other such conditions as are consistent with preventing add specific extra conditions covering criminal activities crime.’. that might be relevant and should be taken into account, Amendment 65, in clause 3, page 3, line 16, at end but considering all crime in its grisly entirety is, in our add— view, too wide-ranging to be accommodated in practice. ‘(c) that all sales and purchases should be supported by The Government feel that amendment 65’s requirement photographic evidence.’. that Amendment 24, in clause 4, page 3, line 27, at beginning “all sales and purchases should be supported by photographic insert evidence” ‘If the licensee or any site manager named in the licence is convicted of a relevant offence,’.— is excessively onerous to deploy as a matter of course, and would impede legitimate businesses unnecessarily. Amendment 60, in schedule 1, page 15, line 6, after As I said, if amendment 23 were accepted, we could ‘against’, insert ‘— consider putting a probationary requirement of that ( ) the inclusion in a licence of a condition under section type on businesses that had already transgressed and 3(8), or shown errant behaviour, but the Government regard ()’. requiring it as a matter of course for all scrap metal Amendment 61, in schedule 1, page 15, line 10, after dealers, even when there is no reason to assume that ‘application,’, insert ‘to include the condition,’. their behaviour as anything other than proper, as too burdensome on business. Mr Browne: I will address this group of amendments It will not surprise Committee members that I in three sections. The amendments all substantially recommend that they endorse Government amendments 23, relate to clause 3(8), which states: 24, 60 and 61 but reject amendments 1, 2 and 65. “The authority may include in the licence one or both of the following conditions”. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Let me Members may think that paragraph (a) is potentially an start by saying what is pretty obvious, as I spoke on extremely onerous requirement, as it states that Second Reading: I fully support the measure before us. “the dealer must not receive scrap metal between specified hours Even the provocative and controversial remarks of my of the day”. hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham North, who is One could say that the dealer will not receive metal not here at the moment, will not provoke me to controversy. between 4 o’clock in the afternoon and 3 o’clock the The wording of the amendments is on the amendment following afternoon. In other words, the dealer would paper. Basically, they propose to provide some flexibility be allowed to operate for only one hour in every 24-hour to local authorities on the cost and conditions of the cycle. The point has been raised that, as set out in the licences to be granted. They are meant to be constructive Bill, that would give the local authority a potentially and not controversial. draconian power and appear to assume impropriety, The amendments would allow local authorities to even when there is no good reason to believe such impose local conditions on the licence to be granted, in impropriety exists. the same way as other forms of licensing. In many Government amendments 23 and 24 would ensure respects, it would also give local authorities the opportunity that, instead of the conditions potentially being imposed to deal with the sorts of dealer who are not considered by a local authority on any scrap metal dealer, the to be acting in the public interest, and certainly not in conditions could only be imposed on a scrap metal the interest of the local community. dealer if a transgression had taken place. The conditions I have received a letter from Councillor Jennifer would be probationary arrangements where there was Brathwaite, the chair of the Lambeth metal theft scrutiny reason to believe that the revocation of the licence commission, who explained that Lambeth council in would be excessive but where practices mean such greater south London has established that commission to investigate restrictions were appropriate. In our view, giving local what steps the council and others can take to reduce authorities the ability to impose such restrictions as a metal theft in and around the borough. She wrote: matter of course would be excessive for the reasons I “However, from the work we have undertaken it is clear that have set out. the ability to impose local conditions on a licence would enable us Government amendments 60 and 61 would put in and our neighbours to better target the particular issues that we place an appeals process. Again, the point was made to face in Lambeth and across South London. The flexibility in the us—it is reasonable, because we want people to be able Licensing Act 2003 has already proved successful in enabling the to operate legitimate businesses freely without feeling authority to address the local circumstances we face, such as persecuted by the state—that if a local authority were responding to street-drinking.” to implement such onerous conditions under subsection I therefore believe that my amendments would be useful 8(a) that it became impossible for a scrap metal dealer in regard to metal dealing. to operate on any commercially sensible basis and if the I have mentioned Lambeth in south London. I have dealer felt that the grounds for suspicion did not justify become involved, by speaking on Second Reading and such constraint, they should be able to appeal. I hope being a member of this Committee, because my borough that the Committee regards that as naturally just. of Walsall in the west midlands is absolutely plagued by 35 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 36

[Mr David Winnick] Mr Winnick: I accept the Minister’s last point. On flexibility, local authorities know their business and the most unfortunate aspects of metal dealing. On Second their imposing certain conditions would be desirable Reading, I quoted a letter from one of my constituents—I and could be considered prior to Report. do not wish to try your patience, Mr Benton—who explained the pain and agony that occurs daily as a Mr Browne: It is not my Bill, but I can say on behalf result of what is happening. of the Home Office that, assuming that the Government There is no doubt that the Bill is required, but I amendments are agreed to, we could consider what simply reiterate that it is most important for local probationary measures are imposed on transgressors in authorities to have some flexibility. I take the Minister’s a way that may satisfy the Committee to a greater extent point that preventing crime in the way he described than it is currently satisfied. would be to widen the issue, and I am willing to listen to other Members on that particular aspect. However, I hope that, even if the amendments are opposed in Richard Ottaway: For the record, I am more than Committee, the Government and the promoter of the pleased for the Home Office to consider this matter. I Bill will consider introducing some amendments on will consult with its officials about the outcome of their Report to provide the flexibility that the Bill now lacks. deliberations.

Meg Hillier: I am interested to hear both sides of the Mr Winnick: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the argument. It puts me in mind of a case when I was first amendment. selected as a local authority councillor years ago. I had Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. to deal with people illegally fixing cars on the street and illegally parking. As a local councillor, I had to pull Amendment made: 23, in clause 3, page 3, line 10, at together a large number of different agencies, including beginning insert ‘If the applicant or any site manager everything from—nationally—the Driver and Vehicle has been convicted of a relevant offence,’.—[Mr Jeremy Licensing Agency to different aspects of the council’s Browne.] regulation process. Although the activity was clearly antisocial, with bits Graham Jones: I beg to move amendment 66, in of it verging on the illegal, it was very difficult to get the clause 3, page 3, line 17, at end add— police or other licensing authorities to act in the round ‘(10) The local authority can charge for licences and the fees because the law was too prescriptive in each individual chargeable must be published 28 days before taking effect.’. area. It took a great deal of co-ordination to attempt to tackle the problem effectively. I therefore have a lot of The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss sympathy with the aims of the amendments tabled by the following: my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North. Amendment 15, in clause 17, page 9, line 29, after I wonder whether, in the spirit of good will outlined ‘18(8)’, insert ‘Schedule 1(6)’. by the Minister, the Home Office and the promoter of the Bill might look again at the wording; I back the Amendment 17, in schedule 1, page 14, line 2, leave intent. I clearly heard the Minister say that if the Bill is out from ‘authority’ to end of line 4. drawn too widely, without any restriction, issues might Amendment 57, in schedule 1, page 14, line 2, leave arise. I have to say that, in the spirit of the Government’s out from ‘authority’ to end of line 4 and insert— attachment to localism—I went into local government ‘(2) In setting a fee under this paragraph, the authority must have as a strong neighbourhood localist—I have some sympathy regard to any guidance issued from time to time by the Secretary with such a position. It seems to me that if we trust of State with the approval of the Treasury.’. local government to make its own decisions, we should listen to colleagues such as Councillor Jennifer Brathwaite Graham Jones: I propose the amendment. in Lambeth and others, and trust them to do their job. After all, they are democratically accountable. I hear the Home Office’s reservations, but, in the Mr Hanson: I want to speak briefly to amendment 15, spirit of collaboration, perhaps there might be an attempt which, if I have drafted it correctly—I may not have to make the wording more suitable for the Government, done so—simply deals with the Secretary of State’s without losing the intention. determining the level of the fee in schedule 1(6) and the guidance about it, which is important for local authorities. Mr Browne: To follow on from the hon. Lady’s remarks If the Minister cannot agree to the amendment, and those of the hon. Member for Walsall North, the I hope that he will reflect on whether the guidance Government would not be happy to accept a wording as should be considered by resolution in the House, thereby broad as allowing hon. Members, who will undoubtedly receive “other such conditions as are consistent with preventing crime”. representations about the guidance, at least to exercise their vote accordingly. That would provide the Minister In our view, that would cast the net very widely, but with discretion do exactly what he wants, but with the provided that the case for new permissions was made House giving final approval. and that they applied after conviction, we could look at toughening up that provision or the stipulations within it. As the hon. Member for Walsall North said, we Mr Browne: Having said at the beginning that I was could, with the permission of the sponsor of the Bill, keen to try to be accommodating, and having not been consider ways of injecting a little bit more rigour without that accommodating in the past two and a quarter creating impracticalities. hours, I now have the opportunity to be a bit more 37 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 38 accommodating than I have been hitherto. This is a Richard Ottaway: A limitation of the 1964 Act was slightly complicated matter. Schedule 1(6) states: the inability of local authorities to refuse to register “An application must be accompanied by a fee set by the businesses as scrap metal dealers, regardless of how authority, which must not exceed the amount set out in, or unlawful their behaviour was. The clause will remedy determined by, regulations made by the Secretary of State.” that by giving local authorities the ability to license only In other words, the Secretary of State can impose a cap those operators who are considered suitable against set on the fee that the authority can charge. criteria. The Home Office has given further consideration to The grounds against which suitability should be assessed the arrangement and, on that basis, has introduced are outlined under subsection (2). Suitability should be Government amendment 57, which effectively removes assessed in relation to previous relevant convictions; the cap for a number of reasons. First, there is concern any previous relevant enforcement action; any previous about why a cap is appropriate. If it is seeking to recover scrap metal dealer and/or environmental permit application costs, which may vary in different parts of the country, refusals; whether any scrap metal dealer licences have for example, a cap may not be the right way to proceed. been previously refused; and whether the application has demonstrated that adequate procedures will be in There may be a tendency for local authorities to set place to ensure that the licence conditions will be met. A their fee at the cap, as if there were a central-Government- licence holder will need to demonstrate that the appropriate stipulated level, which was not the intention. As members procedures are in place to comply with licence conditions of the Committee can see, instead of having the cap and, in particular, whether people have a bank account originally envisaged, amendment 57 proposes that, in to comply with the requirement not to purchase scrap setting a fee under that paragraph, the authority must metal for cash. have regard to the guidance issued from time to time by the Secretary of State with the approval of the Treasury. The requirements are not intended to be onerous; the clause reflects the views that I have perceived in a range If Government amendment 57 were endorsed by the of organisations and aims to help ensure that only Committee, amendment 15, which proposes that the law-abiding individuals and businesses are allowed to cap should be approved by Parliament, would no longer trade as scrap metal dealers. I believe that the grounds apply, because there would be no cap for Parliament to for suitability are reasonable and proportionate, and approve. Amendment 17 would also be redundant. that there are enough safeguards under the Bill to ensure that local authority decisions are well considered 5.45 pm and that there is a proper judicial appeal process. The matter about which I am most keen to be conciliatory Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. is amendment 66, introduced so concisely by the hon. Member for Hyndburn, under which the local authority could charge for licences and fees chargeable, but the Clause 4 amount that they could charge would have to be published with that notice period so that people had an understanding. REVOCATION OF LICENCE AND IMPOSITION OF Other fees levied by local authorities have stipulated CONDITIONS notice periods so people know where they stand and, if Amendment made: 24, in clause 4, page 3, line 27, at the fee were to change substantially, people may wish to beginning insert— take that into account. ‘If the licensee or any site manager named in the licence is With the indulgence of the Committee, I would prefer convicted of a relevant offence,’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) that the spirit of amendment 66 were taken away by the Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand people at the Home Office who draft such measures and part of the Bill. that the Government came up with their own version of the amendment. That is not because we wish to steal the Mr Hanson: I do not want to delay the Committee, thunder of the hon. Member for Hyndburn, but because but I want some clarification. Clause 4 rightly says that those who draft policy on behalf of the Home Office the seem to regard their ability to be superior to his when it “authority may revoke a scrap metal licence if it is satisfied that comes to getting the details right. the licensee does not carry on business at any of the sites identified The underlying sentiment of the hon. Gentleman’s in the licence” argument is regarded as reasonable, so I hope that the as well as for other reasons outlined in the clause. It also Committee will remove the cap by supporting Government indicates that licensees may appeal the revocation. amendment 57, making amendments 15 and 17 redundant, I simply want clarification from the hon. Member for and that amendment 66 is withdrawn with my undertaking Croydon South or the Minister about what happens that we shall seek to accommodate its spirit, although during the appeal period, because I understand that in our own precise drafting form. currently dealers can potentially continue to trade for the duration of the appeal. Graham Jones: I appreciate the tone of the Minister’s I notice that subsection (5) states: comments and thank him for accepting that the measure “The authority may vary a licence by adding one or both of was drafted to help scrap metal dealers and the industry the conditions set out in section 3(8).” rather than hinder them. I presume that he did not Clause 3(8) states that the authority may, for example, mean 1966, but I shall take away the spirit of that year. stipulate the hours in which a scrap metal dealer may I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. receive metal. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Do clause 4 and clause 3(8) give the authority the Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand ability to specify that no scrap metal can be received part of the Bill. pending an appeal? Otherwise, a licensee could continue 39 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 40

[Mr Hanson] operating and the only sanction would be the revocation of their licence and the imposition of a fine. Even if to operate for the appeal period of 21 days despite a they committed a further offence in that 21-day period, local authority’s having taken the serious step of that punishment would not change—there would be no withdrawing the licence. The discussions so far suggest disincentive not to commit further offences in that that having a licence revoked is an extremely serious period. matter and not one that we would expect on a regular Another concern is public confidence in this matter. basis. If, as the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old My question—either for answer today or for reflection Southwark indicated, the Dr Salter statue has been pending further consideration of the Bill—is about stolen from Bermondsey and tracked down to Mr Jones’s what happens during the appeal period. If clause 3(8) scrap metal dealer in Bermondsey, which has had its satisfies the conditions that the licence could be varied licence revoked because of that offence, and the people so that no trading could take place during the appeal of Bermondsey see that Mr Jones’s business is operating period, that would satisfy my curiosity today. If work for a further 21 days while he appeals, that does not can continue at a site during the appeal period, that is a seem to be particularly fair. I mean no disrespect to my potential concern, because a scrap metal dealer who has hon. Friend the Member for Hyndburn in picking that had their licence revoked due to not meeting the strictures name. The provision needs some reflection on, and I of the Bill could still operate for a period of 21 days—or, would welcome clarification on whether clause 3(8) potentially, for as long as a judicial review took. would apply, and if it would not, I would welcome the I did not table any amendments to clause 4, because promoter of the Bill and the Minister examining these the matter I am raising is a clause stand part issue. I matters in detail before later consideration of the Bill. would welcome some reflection now, but if that is not possible, I want an assurance either that such matters Richard Ottaway: As the right hon. Gentleman has are covered or that the measure will be considered for been speaking, I have been quietly consulting, and he is tightening up at a future date, so that in really serious making a valid point. We will have a look at the matter circumstances the authority has the ability—as the police and if necessary revert on the point. do with an errant local pub—to close the premises On the rest of the stand part debate, I think that we down immediately, pending an appeal. have debated this long enough without my repeating the points. Richard Ottaway: I am grateful for the way in which Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. the right hon. Gentleman phrased his inquiry. As I understand it, the position is that if the dealer is trading when they appeal, they can carry on trading until the Clause 5 appeal is heard. If they are not trading, however, they carry on not trading until the appeal is heard, so the FURTHER PROVISION ABOUT LICENCES status quo prevails. Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill. Mr Hanson: That leaves with me with an element of concern. If a local authority has determined that a Mr Hanson: I do not wish to detain the Committee, licensee, who is already trading, is unsuitable to trade but I want to know something. Clause 5 indicates that because it has committed serious offences, its licence under paragraph 2 of schedule 1, the authority may will be revoked, which is what clause 4 does, but the vary the licence. In doing so, are the local authorities licensed premises could continue to trade pending an going to, bound to, or entitled to charge a fee for the appeal. We are trying to stop the abuse of that scrap varying of a licence? There would be an additional cost metal licence, yet the authority will have to sit back and to the local authority in varying that licence. The local watch some organisation that it has deemed unsuitable authority can charge for issuing a licence, but what is continue to trade. the procedure for varying a licence? Does it have the My only question is on clause 4(5), which states: ability to recharge the costs of that licence? “The authority may vary a licence by adding one or both of the conditions set out in section 3(8).” Richard Ottaway: The clause provides that schedule 1 Clause 3(8) states that has effect. Schedule 1 sets out the procedural issues “the dealer must not receive scrap metal between specified hours relating to the licence—in particular, the terms of the of the day”. licence, the application process, the offence of making a Would it be legal and feasible for the authority to say false statement and the appeals process. Within the under clause 3(8) that the dealer could not operate schedule is a fee-raising power. One of the limitations of between the hours of 24 and 24 for the next 21 days? I the existing registration scheme in the Scrap Metal am simply seeking clarification. If it was such a serious Dealers Act 1964 is that it does not allow local authorities offence that the authority wished to do that, would to generate any funds, so all activity associated with clause 3(8) cover that? If it was not such a serious administering the scheme and ensuring compliance must offence or if the authority would not have the power to be funded by the local authority. As a result, activity in do that under that provision, would the promoter of the relation to the current scheme is barely adequate at best. Bill and the Minister look at what the procedure would Recognising that issue, the Bill rightly includes a fee-raising be on the appeal period? That seems to be of some power to allow local authorities to recover the cost of concern. Even if the offence was serious and the appeal administration and compliance activity in relation to was undertaken, we would still have a rogue trader the Bill. 41 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 42

The Local Government Association believes that Amendment 49, in clause 19, page 11, line 29, at end providing funding through the licence fee will ensure insert— the integrity of the new regime. The Home Office has ‘( ) “Trading name” means a name, other than that stated in discussed this facet of the Bill with representatives of the licence under section 2(4)(a) or (6)(a), under which a licensee the scrap metal industry, who accept that that is a small carries on business as a scrap metal dealer.’. price to pay for a scheme that works and removes illegal Amendment 52, in schedule 1, page 13, line 3, leave operators from the industry. The Home Office has out paragraph (d) and insert— worked with the LGA to estimate the likely cost of a ( ) any proposed trading name,’. licence, but costs will be determined locally. It believes that this is a reasonable and proportionate process. Throughout the process, the views of the scrap metal Mr Browne: Amendments 25, 26, 27, 49 and 52 are all industry and the LGA have been sought. drafting improvements to the Bill, clarifying the use of A key element of the new regime is to ensure that the wording in relation to the name of the business that only businesses and individuals who are considered as applies for and has raised a scrap dealer’s licence. being suitable should be permitted to operate as scrap Schedule 1(3) requires that the name of the business is metal dealers. The application will require information supplied to the local authority when applying for a on key business personnel, other held licences and licence. In addition, clause 7 requires that the business permits, relevant convictions, wider business issues and name is recorded on the national register, and clause 8 the procedures in place to comply with the cash prohibition. requires that any changes to the business name are They will all contribute towards painting a picture notified to the licensing authority. In each of those about the suitability of the operator. A criminal offence three places, the wording of the requirement is slightly of providing false information has been created to ambiguous—something that the amendments seek to clarify. ensure accuracy. The term “trading name” is defined in amendment 49, which is to be used for the purposes of the Act, as the 6pm name Although the Bill is prescriptive about the information “under which a licensee carries on business as a scrap metal dealer.” that it requires, schedule 1 permits local authorities to request further information as appropriate to consider To put that in shorter terms, we seek to harmonise the fully each application. That will therefore equip local terminology throughout the Bill, so that it is clearer for authorities with the information that they need to ascertain the people who wish to apply rigour in the future. fully the applicant’s suitability. As far as the specific Amendment 25 agreed to. inquiries made, no particular note has come my way at the moment, so I have to confess that I do not know the answer. If something turns up later on, I will find a way Mr Hanson: I beg to move amendment 8, in to work it in, to give the right hon. Gentleman the clause 7, page 4, line 18, at end add ‘and available answer that he is after. online.’. This may be a simple matter of a yes. If this information is available online, the amendment is superfluous. Mr Hanson: I would be grateful to the hon. Gentleman Clause 7(1) states: if at some stage, perhaps with assistance, he dropped me a note to that effect, just so we have some clarity. I “The Environment Agency must maintain a register of scrap would not want a situation in which local authorities metal licences.” did not accept or understand their powers. Subsection (3) states: Question put and agreed to. “The register is to be open for inspection to the public.” Clause 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill. That is a minimal requirement. It could simply mean Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill. that a register was available at the Environment Agency’s head office in London if I came to London to ask for it. With regard to detailed public registry information, I Clause 7 went on the Environment Agency’s website today and drew off a number of examples of mini-skip hire licences in my constituency. If that can be done, is it a requirement REGISTER OF LICENCES here? If the Minister can say yes, I will now sit down. If he says, “No, they can’t,” I will return to the debate in Mr Browne: I beg to move amendment 25, in due course. clause 7, page 4, line 13, leave out paragraph (c) and insert— ‘() any trading name of the licensee,’. Mr Browne: I will give a slightly expanded rather than a three-letter answer. The answer is yes, but let me give a slightly longer version. Subsection (3) states: The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss “The register is to be open for inspection to the public.” the following: When I was preparing for the Committee, I asked Amendment 26, in clause 8, page 4, line 31, leave out whether the provision would be satisfied if the register from ‘business’ to first ‘the’ in line 33 and insert ‘under a was available for half an hour at the office in London trading name,’. on the second Tuesday of every month, with 14 days’ Amendment 27, in clause 8, page 4, line 34, leave out notice. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was making ‘the trading’ and insert ‘that’. a rather good point in amendment 8, and we should 43 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 44

[Mr Jeremy Browne] Amendment 30, in clause 8, page 4, line 40, at end insert ‘and concede it to him. Then I was told that it will be () any revocation by the authority of a licence. available online, but we do not necessarily want to ‘(6A) Notification under subsection (6) must be given within specify that. 28 days of the notification, variation or revocation in question.’. I suppose that is a reasonable position for the Amendment 31, in clause 8, page 4, line 41, leave out Government to adopt, because as soon as we start ‘of a change or variation’ and insert ‘under subsection (6)’. specifying in what forms the information will be available, Amendment 50, in schedule 1, page 12, line 21, leave we could make all kinds of arguments about other out paragraph 2. arrangements. For example, people who do not have access to computers might ask why there is not also an Amendment 51, in schedule 1, page 12, line 28, leave amendment to cater for their provision. We might have out from ‘renewed’ to ‘must’ in line 30 and insert ‘on an people who do not speak English asking why there is no application, which’. provision to cater for them, and this would become a Amendment 55, in schedule 1, page 13, line 28, leave sprawling clause. The wording, out sub-paragraph (5). “The register is to be open for inspection to the public” Amendment 56, in schedule 1, page 13, line 31, at end conveys the sentiment without necessarily having to insert— specify precisely in what form it will be available to ‘Variation of licence every member of the public who may wish to look at it. 3A (1) A local authority may, on an application, vary a licence I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that the form by changing it from one type to the other. in which it is envisaged that the register will be available (2) If there is a change in any of the matters mentioned in to the public for most people to look at is precisely that section 2(4)(a) to (c) or (6)(a), the licensee must make an envisaged by him in amendment 8, which is online. I am application to vary the licence accordingly. not going to die in a ditch over this—it will happen (3) But the power to amend the name of the licensee does not anyway—but he may feel that, because that is the intention, include the power to transfer the licence from one person to his amendment is no longer required. another. (4) An application under this paragraph— (a) is to be made to the authority which issued the licence, Mr Hanson: The purpose of my amendment was to and tease out what the phrase, (b) must contain particulars of the changes to be made to “The register is to be open for inspection to the public” the licence. actually meant. As the Minister has indicated, it could (5) A licensee who fails to comply with sub-paragraph (2) is mean that the register is available on the second Thursday guilty of an offence and is liable on summary conviction to a fine of the month in London, on request, with 200 days’ not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale. notice. There are all sorts of ways around that, and (6) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under there is no stipulation in the legislative requirement to this paragraph to prove that the person took all reasonable steps the Environment Agency to make the register of scrap to avoid committing the offence.’. metal licences open to the public. However, I hear what Amendment 58, in schedule 1, page 14, line 7, after he says. For my own benefit, I will repeat that he said ‘paragraph 3’, insert ‘or 3A’. that he anticipated it being online. With that assurance, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 59, in schedule 1, page 15, line 5, at end insert ‘or 3A’. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. Mr Browne: This is a rather long string of Government amendments. For the record I will explain, with reasonable Clause 8 brevity, the purpose of each of them. For those who are not following our deliberations in minute detail—perhaps on television, but not in the Chamber—the most practical NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS effect will be to create a framework for local authorities Amendments made: 26, in clause 8, page 4, line 31, leave to inform the Environment Agency. There is a requirement out from ‘business’ to first ‘the’ in line 33 and insert for the Environment Agency to hold a central list, but ‘under a trading name,’. there is not a standardised procedure in terms of timings Amendment 27, in clause 8, page 4, line 34, leave out for local authorities to convey the information to the ‘the trading’ and insert ‘that’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) Environment Agency. The agency would not necessarily be able to hold an up-to-date list, because the authorities Mr Browne: I beg to move amendment 28, in will not have given it to them, so we are trying to make clause 8, page 4, line 38, leave out paragraph (a) and practical changes to which I find it hard to believe any insert— member of the Committee would object. ‘() any notification given to the authority under subsection Government amendments 50, 51, 55, 58 and 59 give (2) or (4),’. effect to Government amendment 56, which would insert new paragraph 3A in schedule 1. That would permit the local authority to vary a licence, including The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss any of its particulars, and the licence type. However, the following: licences cannot be transferred from one person to another Amendment 29, in clause 8, page 4, line 39, leave out on the grounds that that may circumvent the suitability ‘paragraph 2’ and insert ‘paragraph 3A’. test. 45 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 46

Amendment 56 also creates a criminal offence of Amendment 34, in clause 11, page 6, leave out lines 10 failing to comply with the requirement to apply to vary to 16 and insert— a licence in circumstances where the individual is required ‘() any person who makes the payment acting for the to make the application to vary. That offence is needed dealer. so that the local authority is kept informed of all ‘(5) It is a defence for a person within subsection (4)(a) or (b) changes to a licence, ensuring that information remains who is charged with an offence under this section to prove that accurate and up to date. Circumstances that will necessitate the person— a licence being varied include changes to the site manager (a) made arrangements to ensure that the payment was and the sites that a site licensee operates from. The not made in breach of subsection (1), and ability to vary a licence necessitates clause 8, which (b) took all reasonable steps to ensure that those arrangements relates to notification requirements. Clause 8(6) requires were complied with.’. the local authority to supply any information in relation Amendment 10, in clause 11, page 6, line 12, at end to licence variations to the Environment Agency—the add— point I was making. ‘(d) the employee who receives scrap metal.’. Amendments 28, 29 and 30 seek to strengthen the Amendment 36, in clause 12, page 7, line 9, leave out requirement for the local authorities to inform the ‘comply with’ and insert ‘fulfil’. Environment Agency, including adding a time limit: the Environment Agency should be informed by local Amendment 37, in clause 12, page 7, leave out lines 13 authorities no later than 28 days afterwards of any to 18 and insert— variations to a licence or whether a licence has been ‘() any person who, under arrangements made by a person revoked. The Environment Agency is required under within paragraph (a) or (b), has responsibility for clause 8(7) to amend the national register accordingly, fulfilling the requirement. which will ensure that the register is kept as up to date ‘(10) It is a defence for a person within subsection (9)(a) or (b) as practicable. We are trying to strengthen the national who is charged with an offence under this section to prove that the person— register and to make sure that there is a requirement for speedy conveyance of information so that those who (a) made arrangements to ensure that the requirement was fulfilled, and wish to look at it online or, indeed, to book an appointment on the second Tuesday of each month or whatever (b) took all reasonable steps to ensure that those arrangements other arrangements are arrived at, can be satisfied that were complied with.’. they are inspecting an up-to-date register when they Amendment 16, in clause 12, page 7, line 14, at end do so. add— Amendment 28 agreed to. ‘(d) the employee who receives scrap metal.’. Amendments made: 29, in clause 8, page 4, line 39, leave out ‘paragraph 2’ and insert ‘paragraph 3A’. Mr Browne: The amendment relates in part to tightening up requirements on individual dealers on a site. We Amendment 30, in clause 8, page 4, line 40, at end kicked off our deliberations two and three quarter insert ‘and hours ago by discussing this issue. I hope that this () any revocation by the authority of a licence. provision will reassure those who participated in or ‘(6A) Notification under subsection (6) must be given within listened to that part of our debate. 28 days of the notification, variation or revocation in question.’. Clauses 10, 11 and 12 create three requirements in Amendment 31, in clause 8, page 4, line 41, leave out relation to the scrap metal dealer’s conduct of business: ‘of a change or variation’ to verify the supplier’s identity; to prohibit the dealer and insert ‘under subsection (6)’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) purchasing scrap metal for cash; and to keep records of all business. Each clause also creates a criminal offence to cover any breaches of the requirements which currently Mr Browne: I beg to move amendment 32, in apply to the scrap metal dealer, the site manager and the clause 8, page 5, line 5, leave out ‘and exercised all due manager. diligence’. Government amendments 33, 34 and 37 seek to widen these offences, so that front-line workers, employees The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss whose direct actions result in the requirements being the following: complied with, are also included. I hope that this point Amendment 33, in clause 10, page 5, leave out lines 25 will find favour with the hon. Member for Hyndburn. to 31 and insert— Amendments 9, 10 and 16 seek to achieve the same ‘() any person who, under arrangements made by a person result, but they will not work in practice as individuals within paragraph (a) or (b), has responsibility for responsible for tasks such as paying for the metal may verifying the name and address. not be receiving the metal. We seek to provide greater ‘(5) It is a defence for a person within subsection (4)(a) or (b) clarity on the term “receives,” which may seem a who is charged with an offence under subsection (4) to prove that straightforward concept, but receiving the metal might the person— mean taking it off the back of a van or receiving the (a) made arrangements to ensure that the metal was not payment for it. Therefore, we seek an unambiguous received in breach of subsection (1), and requirement for compliance. (b) took all reasonable steps to ensure that those arrangements were complied with.’. 6.15 pm Amendment 9, in clause 10, page 5, line 27, at end To reflect different working practices, Government add— amendments 33, 34 and 37 seek to address employees ‘(d) the employee who receives scrap metal.’. who have been delegated responsibility by the scrap 47 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 48 metal dealer to comply with particular tasks such as rogue employees, as we know happens in the industry. keeping records on a particular day or making payments. What would happen then? How would the local authority We need to guard against management passing the buck be able to judge the new site licence if one or two rogue and delegating liability to lower-grade members of staff. individuals had been taken on from a former site from Where an employee clearly acts in a way that leads to which they might have been dismissed? How would the offences being committed under clauses 10 to 12, however, local authority know that, and how could it vary the it is right that that individual employee is held responsible, licence if it found out such information? even if they are not the site manager. The Government amendments also provide a defence Mr Browne: I am not sure that I have more to add to for scrap metal dealers if they can prove that they have what I have already said. We are trying to create legislative made arrangements to ensure the requirements in circumstances in which an honourable, law-abiding site clauses 10 to 12 are met and that they have taken all manager will not be punished directly if he is doing reasonable steps to ensure that the arrangements are everything that he reasonably can to comply with the complied with. That is right because it would not be fair requirements of the Act, but in which a rogue employee for a manager to be held liable for a rogue employee’s working for him can be targeted and caught if that actions if they are not in line with the approach taken employee behaves inappropriately, without the site manager by the company. We do not intend to define “reasonable automatically losing their licence. steps” owing to the different activities that the term We are trying to get a balance in which wayward could describe, but evidenced training courses, written behaviour is caught in the net but respectable, honest and visual material, and new procedures to seek compliance site managers and employees are not punished as a could all be considered by the courts as reasonable consequence of inadvertently employing someone who defences for the site manager. behaves improperly without their knowledge. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. I suppose that that person Graham Jones: The Minister is right in his submission could then go and work in all kinds of sectors of the that I am sympathetic to the amendments, although economy where criminal inclinations might cause difficulty they are a halfway measure compared with what we in one regard or another. It is hard to put every safeguard discussed earlier. How would he guard against the rogue in place. The requirement that we seek is perhaps more employee dismissed by a business who discreetly seeks tightly prescribed than that, but I hope that the Committee employment in the industry elsewhere? That scenario is will think it a reasonable measure. likely because such people would want to remain in familiar employment. Mr Hanson: I will speak briefly to amendments 9, 10 and 16. I am grateful to the Minister for tabling his Mr Browne: I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point that amendments after ours. The purpose of my tabling the amendments are not as all-encompassing as he amendments 9, 10 and 16, poorly drafted though they envisaged with amendment 62, which would have are, was to highlight the fact that the Bill, as currently individually licensed every person employed in the industry, proposed, simply makes the scrap metal dealer or site but I hope he recognises that the amendments cover the manager liable in legislation for the failure to abide by transgressions of individual employees, rather than just the licence conditions. the site manager. As he acknowledged, that is a step in As ever, there will be rogue employees who might the direction he favours, even if it does not reach the seek to subvert the law and provide an outlet for stolen destination he would have liked. metal. There might be poorly trained employees who do not abide by the site managers’ and scrap metal dealers’ Graham Jones: Before the Minister sits down, will he rules. I wanted to establish a principle of employee answer my final question? What safeguards are there to liability, so that everybody working on the site knows stop a rogue employee from being employed elsewhere that if they transgress the regulations of the Act, they in the industry? are liable for a fine of the magnitude set out in the Act. I know from personal experience that if my constituents working in supermarkets sell alcohol to under-18s, the Mr Browne: My understanding is that a rogue employee manager is not responsible; they are personally liable at would self-evidently have difficulty applying for a collector’s the point of sale. From my perspective, a similar principle licence because he would be applying as an individual. should apply here. The Minister’s amendments meet Were he to seek a job within another site or business, that, as do his remarks, so I am happy not to press any I imagine the site manager applying for the licence or of my amendments and to support the Minister’s objective appealing against the licence’s revocation would need to that all people who deal with applications on site are explain why he thinks that employing a person with a liable to prosecution in the event of failure. proven record of transgression is consistent with his continuing to have a licence. I accept that individual Amendment 32 agreed to. licensing creates a system where it is easier to track each Clause 8, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill. individual, but as I said earlier, it places a considerably Clause 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill. greater burden on local authorities, which is why we were reluctant to go down that path. As I said, I hope that the measure will move in a direction that satisfies. Clause 10

Graham Jones: May I provide some assistance? Yes, VERIFICATION OF SUPPLIER’S IDENTITY there is deep concern that it would then affect the new Amendment made: 33, in clause 10, page 5, leave out site owner who took on the rogue employee or several lines 25 to 31 and insert— 49 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 50

‘( ) any person who, under arrangements made by a person “Adequate procedures” include procedures to ensure within paragraph (a) or (b), has responsibility for that any employee who is hired does not have relevant verifying the name and address. criminal convictions that would impact on the ability of ‘(5) It is a defence for a person within subsection (4)(a) or (b) the licensee to comply with the regulation. I hope that who is charged with an offence under subsection (4) to prove that addresses the right hon. Gentleman’s point. the person— Question put and agreed to. (a) made arrangements to ensure that the metal was not received in breach of subsection (1), and Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the (b) took all reasonable steps to ensure that those arrangements Bill. were complied with.’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) Question proposed, That the clause, as amended, stand Clause 11 part of the Bill. OFFENCE OF BUYING SCRAP METAL FOR CASH ETC Simon Hughes: Obviously this is a key provision in the Bill and one of the key proposals intended to 6.30 pm regulate the industry. I ask my hon. Friend the Member Mr Hanson: I beg to move amendment 11, in for Croydon South and possibly the Minister to say clause 11, page 6, line 4, at end add ‘excluding cash whether they think this is the best and sufficient way of payments.’. dealing with what is obviously the biggest problem that people have, namely identifying who comes and trades This is a relatively trivial amendment, but it seeks to in scrap metal. clarify a particular point. Subsection 11(1) states that a I ask that question because of a point made by one of “scrap metal dealer must not pay for scrap metal except” the practitioners in Southwark. I am sure that he will via the two methods that are outlined in that provision, not mind being cited and I know that he has been in but subsection 11(2) states that the touch with my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon “Secretary of State may by order amend subsection (1) to permit South. He is a gentleman called Tom Pratt, who runs other methods of payment.” Southwark Metals, which is a very reputable organisation I have simply added the words “excluding cash payments”, based just outside my constituency, in the constituency so that we do not find that the principle of the Bill is of the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell undermined by a future Secretary of State, of whichever and Peckham (Ms Harman). Nevertheless, it serves the party, who determines that they want to unpick the Bill whole of the borough and it is certainly very well by order. Someone might be able to clarify that that is regarded in my part of the borough. not possible under subsection 11(2), but my reading of Mr Pratt’s argument is that although this is an it is that a future Secretary of State could decide that understandable proposition, the best way to regulate our worthy commitments and discussions today were and catch people, by and large, is to make sure that the meaningless, and introduce by order an amendment to transactions must happen in certain places, namely allow cash again. Our discussion of the matter, for registered sites, and that we get on CCTV the people, many hours, could be completely undermined by a their licence plates and so on. He has put the argument Secretary of State who determined that it was not worth that the best way to catch people is not by having a candle. cashless payments. He also makes the wider argument—I have argued the contrary, so I am not adopting his Mr Browne: I must admit that when I considered the argument but just asking the question—that this measure amendment I thought that we would be having a brilliantly is a discrimination in relation to this industry, when we circular debate about whether, under a clause entitled are not banning cash payments across all other industries. “Offence of buying scrap metal for cash etc”, it was He asks, “Why should we be singled out as an industry? necessary to introduce an amendment saying that the Loads and loads of people pay in cash for all sorts of Secretary of State should not allow scrap metal to be things. That’s how lots of business is done.” So I would bought for cash. be grateful for a considered reflection on the wisdom of The purpose of the clause, which I appreciate allows going down this road, as opposed to going down the a bit of flexibility, is to future-proof—that dread word— roads that he and other people in the industry are against potential future methods of payment. Were the apparently suggesting. legislation to have been passed 20 years ago, paying on I am aware that, by and large, the scrap metal industry, the internet would not have been possible. Legislation representatives of which have written to us, is supportive then might have stipulated payment by cheque. Some of this proposal, but it would be worth making sure that types of payment become less fashionable or practical we understand that there are other views, and if they are over time, and others more so. It is certainly not envisaged views held by reputable, successful, concerned, socially that a Home Secretary would act in such a way, and that aware and politically conscious business people we need is not what is intended under subsection 11(2). to address them. The only matter in which I would defer to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South is that I take the Richard Ottaway: I am grateful to the right hon. right hon. Gentleman’s point that were a bloody-minded Gentleman for raising that point. As set out in clause 3(2)(f), future Home Secretary intent on sabotage to come into the local authority can take into account when determining office, he or she might seek severely to undermine the suitability legislation by acting in a manner that was the 180 degrees “whether the applicant has demonstrated that there will be in opposite of what is intended by, I imagine, every member place adequate procedures to ensure that the provisions of this of the Committee, and if that were the case there would Act are complied with.” be no formal means to prevent them from doing so. 51 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 52

[Mr Jeremy Browne] Richard Ottaway: In that case, I am afraid that I do not have the answer to hand, but I will certainly let him I suppose, therefore, that it depends a bit on whether the know later. hon. Member for Croydon South thinks we will have a future Home Secretary with such malign intentions that Mr Browne: I do not know which other sectors of the we need to agree to the amendment. I am fairly agnostic economy face such draconian measures, but in response on the matter. I think that it would end up looking like a to my right hon. Friend, my understanding is that this fairly perverse bit of drafting to prevent a seemingly requirement is needed because the abuses in this sector extremely unlikely measure from taking place. The purpose are so often achieved by using untraceable cash payments. of the provision is to ensure that if certain methods of Were we not to take the rather radical step of banning payment become common practice in the future they cash payments altogether, we would have a Bill with a should be allowed, by giving the Home Secretary that massive hole in it which was open to abuse, because we degree of freedom. would not be able to correlate the recorded information that is required in the Bill with the registered payment Richard Ottaway: I draw the Committee’s attention that would show the paper trail of the transactions. to the fact that the title of the clause is “Offence of Therefore, we would not be able to catch transgressors. buying scrap metal for cash etc”, so it would be pretty My understanding is that large sections of this industry perverse if a Secretary of State sought to introduce welcome the change. It may cause some inconvenience provisions that went against that heading. I do not for them on the margins, but if they are behaving know precisely what the legal remedies are, but I suspect properly, they may feel that it would remove the disreputable that he or she would not get far. parts of the industry—or at least severely impinge on them—which may well compete on an unfair basis with Simon Hughes rose— them as well as doing something that is morally wrong. I do not think that that is seen by the industry as a Mr Hanson: It was never my intention to press the whole as being a bad proposal. On the contrary, it point, but this is legislation for as long as it exists. The welcomes it even though it recognises that in some Scrap Metal Dealers Act 1964 is only now being amended, circumstances it may require some small degree of so we could be dealing with legislation that remains in administrative difficulty. place for 50 years, and a subsequent Secretary of State or Minister theoretically could, under the Bill as drafted, Simon Hughes: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for without recourse to the House, by order—presumably his answer. As I said, I was not seeking to catch him on even by an order that was not debatable or had to be the hop. I do not dissent from the fact that there is a prayed against—simply change the payment method. I benefit to the proposed measure and that there are am just testing the point and will not make a big meal people in the industry who see the benefit. It allows out of it. I simply want to say that with the amendment them to show the paper trail, which proves that they we could have ensured that primary legislation was and those who work with them are clean. It would be needed rather than the whim of a Secretary of State, helpful if my hon. Friend could arrange, at some convenient but I am happy to withdraw the amendment if there is moment before Report, for a note to be given to those no movement on the matter. [Interruption.] of us in the Committee who want the promoter of the Bill and the right hon. Member for Delyn to meet, The Chair: I apologise, Mr Hughes; I did not catch which shows the consideration of the matter. I am clear your hand rising. By all means, have the floor. that this is unusual. We want to ensure that it is justified and it would be really helpful to see if there are any Simon Hughes: I do not want to get involved in this other examples in English law. particular debate about the amendment, Mr Benton. We are about to come on to the stand part debate, and Mr Browne: While we have been having this conversation, I do not want to catch my hon. Friend the Minister I have sought further guidance about in which other without any notice. Before we conclude this issue about sections of the UK economy it is specified in UK law cashless payments, which is a repeat of the current that cash payments are forbidden, and I am told that legislative position rather than something new, it would there are no other sections. We are dealing with unique be helpful if the Minister, with the help of his civil circumstances. There is such proliferation of criminal servants, could put on the record the other places activity in this particular industry—I do not mean all where, in legislation, we currently ban such payments. the people who operate within it—that is aided and We should be careful about legislating for a particular abetted by cash payments. The promoter of the Bill, solution in a particular industry if we do not understand supported by the Government, felt that this rather what the implications are elsewhere. This is really a dramatic step was necessary to give the legislation the heads-up to my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon best chance of working in practice. South, who might be able to give me the answer when we debate clause stand part in a moment. Simon Hughes: I am grateful. That is helpful. It was a quick speech providing communication update, which Richard Ottaway: On that specific point, may I ask is appreciated. I will reflect on whether there is anything the right hon. Gentleman a question? Is he talking else that it might be helpful to get on the record for about banning cashless payments in UK law or in other people in the industry. parts of the world? Yes, there is a big problem in the industry and people want to remedy it. Yes, this may be the best available Simon Hughes: In UK law. solution. We have already had that debate once during 53 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 54 discussions on the legal aid Bill in the previous Session, The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss when we agreed the principle. This Bill is only re-enacting amendment 12, in clause 12, page 7, line 7, leave out ‘2 that in a more logical place, which I accept entirely. I years’ and insert ‘3 years’. can think of other areas of commercial life where people would often suspect that there might not be an Mr Browne: This is a rather comical amendment. entirely clean ownership trail in respect of quite a lot of Clause 12(6) states: cash transactions, but this may be the largest sector or The information…must be recorded in a manner which allows activity, both in numbers of activities and value, which each of the items of information to be readily connected to the is why such provision is justified. I will not trouble my scrap metal to which they relate.” hon. Friend at the moment, but we may need to get There was concern in drafting terms that that may be something in writing showing why this exceptional measure interpreted as the paperwork’s being literally connected is needed. The Government would not be minded to to the scrap metal by means of a nail, for example, or a implement such a principle in respect of any other staple—[Interruption.] Or Sellotape. The information sectors at the moment. needs to relate in administrative terms, rather than being physically connected to the scrap metal. I am sure Graham Jones: On the issue of cash, I cannot think that Committee members will regard that clarification of an example in UK law—I accept the Minister’s as helpful, if they thought it was insufficiently clear to comments—and this is not setting a precedent culturally start with. or with the public out there, because in a lot of situations Amendment 12 may find some favour with the cash does not exist any more and there is not really an Committee. In the collegiate spirit, the record-keeping option to pursue a cash payment. Online is the big period is stipulated as two years because that is the example: many companies just will not entertain people’s period under the 1964 Act. All existing scrap metal trying to use cash. The other big example is payment dealers have therefore become accustomed, possibly machines, because people cannot pay cash into a lot of over decades, to keeping their fiscal records for two those. People have to accept that and they kind of years. Perfectly reputable and honourable people have accept it. Culturally, but not in terms of UK law, we are done that in a way that works well for them, and it was moving towards a cashless society. People accept that thought an undue burden would be placed on them if and there is not a great resistance to it, although one they were required to keep records for longer. might believe there may be. 6.45 pm Simon Hughes: Just one last thing. I am really pleased My only concession—not in Government Minister that we have not gone down that road so far, although terms, but in debating terms—to the right hon. Member in the end we agreed that cheques and chequebooks for Delyn is that the licence period in the Bill is three should disappear. I was clear that, in spite of some in years, so one could argue that a record-keeping period industry arguing for their disappearance, lots of my of three years would be consistent with that. One could constituents and other people still want cheques as a also argue that two years is quite a sufficiently onerous means of paying for things and receiving money for the administrative burden, and why increase the burden foreseeable future. Thank goodness, that will happen. when it is not the matter of concern? We would not be legislating for that in isolation. By requiring perfectly honourable people who keep their records for two years Mr Hanson: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the to keep them for three years, we may create a pinch-point amendment. that does not have much, if any, impact on those who Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. we are seeking to disadvantage. I do not feel strongly Amendment made: 34, in clause 11, page 6, leave out about the issue. The two-year period comes from the lines 10 to 16 and insert— 1964 Act. However, if my hon. Friend the Member for ‘() any person who makes the payment acting for the Croydon South or the right hon. Gentleman, or the dealer. Committee as a whole, feel that three years would be ‘(5) It is a defence for a person within subsection (4)(a) or (b) superior to two years, I would not regard it as a failure who is charged with an offence under this section to prove that the in my political career to have prevented him from person— making that change. (a) made arrangements to ensure that the payment was not made in breach of subsection (1), and Mr Hanson: The Minister has outlined the reasoning (b) took all reasonable steps to ensure that those arrangements behind amendment 12. The licence period is three years were complied with.’.—(Mr Jeremy Browne.) and yet the record-keeping period is two years, which Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the seems to be an inconsistency. If we have a three-year Bill. licence period, records should be kept for the period of the licence, so that those records can be checked. I have been a Member of Parliament for 20 years. I Clause 12 had five years in opposition before 1997 and have had two and half years in opposition since 2010. In all my RECORDS OF DEALINGS seven and a half years in opposition, not once have I had an amendment that I proposed accepted by a Mr Jeremy Browne: I beg to move amendment 35, in Government Minister. He could really break a long clause 12, page 7, line 2, leave out from ‘allows’ to end duck if he accepted the change from two years to three. of line 3 and insert ‘the information and the scrap metal As a Minister for 13 years, I did accept amendments to which it relates to be readily identified by reference to from the Opposition, even though he is doing what we each other.’. did, which was to look at them again and replace them 55 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 56

[Mr Hanson] attached to them. Throughout the country, there are premises that dispose of metal with residential premises in our own fair and gentle hand. There is not much that as part of the total site. Although a warrant can be the Minister can do with the number 3 to make it more applied for, the purpose of the right of entry and acceptable to the parliamentary draftsman. If he is inspection under the clause is so that a constable or willing to accept the change, I would be delighted to local officer can inspect at relatively short notice and have an amendment accepted after seven and a half potentially have a deterrent effect, as well as the enforcement years of opposition. It would be a major achievement effect of being able to check sites and records accordingly. and would certainly cheer me up no end. If he is willing I am sure that such matters will not be a major to do that, I accept his graciousness, but if he is not, problem, but how long is it anticipated it will take for a I will happily withdraw the amendment. warrant to be issued? Between the warrant being applied for and it being issued, evidence could be discarded or Richard Ottaway: I am happy to concede. destroyed accordingly by someone who was contravening the spirit of the Bill, which itself would be an offence. Mr Hanson: I am overwhelmed with the success of The purpose of the clause is to ensure that the police the hon. Gentleman and the Minister in accepting my and the local authority can enter premises. Given that amendment. Every scrap metal dealer can call that third residential premises will in some case have facilities for year “Hanson’s year” in future. the disposal of scrap metal attached to them, is that a loophole that needs to be considered? Mr Browne: All the ones who do not like it can write to you. Mr Browne: I understand the point made by the right hon. Gentleman. The reason why the Government will resist the amendment is for exactly the reason that he Mr Hanson: I will live with that consequence. I appreciate outlined, which is an anxiety about what is an appropriate the efforts of the Minister and the hon. Gentleman. power for the state by which it could enter a person’s private premises without an advance warrant. We believe The Chair: This is so unique that it is presenting a that the Bill has achieved the right balance between little difficulty for the Chair. protecting the individual from excessive state interference, Amendment 35 agreed to. while at the same time achieving its purpose. Amendment made: 12, in clause 12, page 7, line 7, leave out ‘2 years’ and insert ‘3 years’.—(Mr Hanson.) Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) Amendments made: 36, in clause 12, page 7, line 9, leave (Con): There have been several instances in my constituency out ‘comply with’ and insert ‘fulfil’. of residential premises attached to scrap metal yards. Has the Minister considered whether the Bill might Amendment 37, in clause 12, page 7, leave out lines 13 encourage scrap metal dealers to establish in their scrap to 18 and insert— metal yards a mobile home or other residential property ‘() any person who, under arrangements made by a person that would enable them to get round that very point? within paragraph (a) or (b), has responsibility for fulfilling the requirement. ‘(10) It is a defence for a person within subsection (9)(a) or (b) Mr Browne: My hon. Friend makes an extremely who is charged with an offence under this section to prove that good point. I would need greater legal guidance about the person— whether an operator of a large scrap metal site with a (a) made arrangements to ensure that the requirement was mobile home in the corner could have legal grounds for fulfilled, and stopping an inspection of the site as a whole, as distinct (b) took all reasonable steps to ensure that those from the mobile home that is on the site. I would also arrangements were complied with.’.—(Mr Browne.) need guidance on whether people could classify a massive Clause 12, as amended, ordered to stand part of the warehouse as being their place of residence on the basis Bill. that they had a camp bed in the corner of it and were therefore less subject to the inspection regime than they would be if the camp bed were removed, and the Clause 13 premises were just a warehouse rather than a residential dwelling. RIGHT TO ENTER AND INSPECT I hesitate to go deeper into such a discussion because I am not entirely sure of the likelihood of that being a Mr Hanson: I beg to move amendment 13, in practical way of circumventing the Bill. Members of clause 13, page 7, line 33, leave out subsection (3). the Committee would also wish the Government to be This probing amendment would delete subsection (3) mindful of not giving the police or other authorities the from the clause, which states that power to go into people’s homes without a warrant, and “Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to residential premises.” that is the difficulty we are seeking to navigate. Having had discussions with the hon. Member for Croydon South, I accept and understand that, under Mr Hanson: I am grateful to the hon. Member for the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, a warrant of Romsey and Southampton North for her intervention. entry must be issued for the inspection of residential There is a potential problem to be considered, although purposes and premises. I want to test the views of the I am not arguing that it is definitive. I understand the hon. Gentleman and the Minister about those undoubtedly Government’s position in respect of the Protection of occasional residential premises with scrap metal yards Freedoms Act, but is it worth while for the hon. Member 57 Public Bill Committee11 SEPTEMBER 2012 Scrap Metal Dealers Bill 58 for Croydon South and the Minister to consider whether Mr Hanson: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the there is scope to ensure that, if a business were operating amendment. from residential premises, a police officer or local authority Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. could inspect them without a warrant? Perhaps we can Clause 13 ordered to stand part of the Bill. have some clarity on how long a warrant would take to be issued, so that evidence cannot be destroyed in the Clause 14 ordered to stand part of the Bill. meantime. Clause 15 Mr Browne: I have been informed that the Association of Chief Police Officers has said that it is content with the warrant-obtaining mechanisms, that the criteria to REVIEW OF ACT obtain a warrant to enter a residential premises are not considered onerous, and that the criteria are lower than Mr Hanson: I beg to move amendment 14, in those in the 1964 Act. I hope that the concerns rightly clause 15, page 9, line 5, at end add ‘and lay it before raised by the right hon. Gentleman will not happen in both Houses of Parliament.’. practice. However, I share his anxieties that someone could create a loophole in the law by having a substantial amount of scrap metal in their house or in somewhere The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss that is designated as a house. I suppose that one could amendment 4, in clause 15, page 9, line 10, at end have anxieties on the other side, that someone had insert— received payment for one small item of scrap metal that ‘(d) assess the prevalence of the export of stolen scrap they put in their bedroom, and the police saying that on metal through UK ports in the years following the that basis they no longer needed a warrant to enter the passage of the Act.’. house. He asked whether I would look at how the situation would work in practice, and I am happy to Mr Hanson: The amendment is a probing amendment ensure that the Home Office and the Government as a to ensure that any final review is laid before both whole are satisfied that we are not waving through Houses of Parliament. If that is the case, or an assurance legislation with a big loophole that can be exploited by can be given, I am happy to withdraw the amendment criminals. or have it accepted as part of the Bill. Mr Hanson: Will the Minister look also at the definition of residential premises? My concern is not that someone Graham Jones: I would like to speak to amendment 4, has scrap metal in their bedroom, but that there is a on the issue that I have raised regarding vehicle badging. house on a property, with a substantial two or three The legislation deals with the dealer channel, but not acres of land, where scrap metal is utilised as part of the with displacement outside the industry. That matter is business. ongoing with the British Transport Police, and Operation Tornado is being rolled out nationally. I am concerned about people trying to evade the law by not using Mr Browne: Yes. I was making a point from the other registered scrap metal dealers, but dealing in metal side of the argument. I would not wish the state to use themselves, like with vehicle badging on containers. the legislation to go into someone’s house on the basis of a spurious justification about scrap metal. However, I take the right hon. Gentleman’s point that the Committee The Chair: Order. There is a Division on the Floor of is much more likely to be concerned about someone the House. I understand that it has been agreed that we who either has scrap metal in their extended garden or will reconvene at 9.30 am tomorrow. designates a building that does not appear to anyone Ordered, That the debate be now adjourned.— else to be a residential property, making themselves (Mr Ottaway.) appear not to be subject to the Bill when they are. With his permission, I do not wish to accept the amendment, because it would be a big step to take without further 7pm consideration. However, I am happy to look further Adjourned till Wednesday 12 September at half-past into it, as he requested. Nine o’clock.