Životna priča kao motiv i razlog

razgovarali interviewed by

Vera Grimmer Željko Luketić fotografije photographs by Hrvatski filmski arhiv / Croatian Film Archive (hfa), Arhiv Hrvatskog filmskog saveza / Croatian Film Association Archive (ahfs), Arhiv Sveučilišta u Michiganu / University of Michigan Archive (asm), Arhiv Universal Pictures / Universal Pictures Archive (aup) branko lustig portreti portraits Damil Kalogjera Razgovarali u Zagrebu, 8. srpnja 2013. Hollywooda, nego i refleksija na doživotni aktivizam nekoga Interviewed in 8 July 2013 tko je uskraćivanje ljudskih prava najprije osjetio na vlastitoj ¶ Producent Branko Lustig dugo je vremena živio na dvjema A Life Story koži, a sada ispunjenje nalazi u edukaciji onih najmlađih. Povi- ¶ Producer Branko Lustig lived on two addresses, in Los adresama, između Los Angelesa i Zagreba, gdje su se i dogo- jest se uči da se ne bi ponovila, kažu, a ovom prilikom sazna- Angeles and Zagreb, for a long time and there he enjoyed the dili najvažniji trenuci njegove bogate karijere. Njegov povra- jemo i dijelove povijesti koja je odredila njegov umjetnički rad; most important moments of his career. His return to Zagreb tak u Zagreb dogodio se bez pompe i svjetla reflektora, baš od početaka u Jadran filmu, preko zlatnog doba jugoslaven- occurred without a fuss and inconspicuously, as it fits the kako i priliči zanimanju producenta čiji je posao na filmu pre- as a Motive skih koprodukcija, pa sve do velikog međunarodnog uspjeha i profession of a film producer, whose work on a film is crucial, sudan, ali i širokoj publici nevidljiv. Bogata životna povijest prijateljevanja sa Stevenom Spielbergom, Ridleyem Scottom i but also invisible to the wider public. A rich life history of ovog filmaša, dva puta nagrađenog Oscarom, teško se može drugim imenima svjetskog filma. Lustig je danas i predavač na this film maker who has won two Oscars can hardly be told svesti u jedan intervju jer priča o Lustigu nije samo priča o Akademiji dramskih umjetnosti u Zagrebu te osnivač i počasni in one interview since the story about Lustig is not only the Osječaninu koji je preživio strahote Auschwitza i stigao do and a Cause predsjednik Festivala židovskog filma. story of a man from who survived the atrocities of

204 oris, broj 84, godina 2013 oris, number 84, year 2013 Branko Lustig, Intervju Branko Lustig, Interview 205 ORIS — Kad sam nedavno pogledala film Ne okreći se, sine, Auschwitz and made it to Hollywood, but also the reflection mi je u pamćenju jer je za mene bio početak. Počeo sam raditi jedan od najvažnijih filmova hrvatske kinematografije koji on a life-long activism of someone who felt the violation of u hrvatskom, odnosno u ono vrijeme jugoslavenskom filmu, Branko Bauer možda u svojim najboljim sekvencama čak i podsjeća na human rights on his own skin and now feels fulfilled when he no mada smo bili Jugoslavija i mada je Jugoslavija film una- Rosselinijeve filmove iz ‘40.-ih godina, na špici mi je upalo educates the youngest members of the society. It is said that prijed odlučivala koji će film kupiti, a koji neće, to je uvijek (ahfs) u oči Vaše ime kao direktora filma. Shvatila sam dvojakost history is taught so that it would not repeat itself. On this bio hrvatski film. Iz Ne okreći se, sine imam jednu fantastičnu Vašeg djelovanja u javnosti; djelovanje filmskog radnika te occasion we learn about the parts of history which set the uspomenu. Asistent režije Branku Baueru, Simo Dubajić, bio je aktivnost u smislu prosvjetljavanja i edukacije onih koje se course of his artistic work; from his start in to the veliki nacionalist. Kad sam ja došao u ekipu, rekao je: Branko, u njemačkom govornom području naziva die Nachgebore- golden period of Yugoslav co-productions and a huge inter- pa šta će nam ovaj Židov, bolje da ga je Hitler spalio! Na to je, nen. Što je za Vas to, dakle, u to doba značilo? ¶ Branko national success and friendship with Steven Spielberg, Ridley što me također jako začudilo i iznenadilo, sekretar partijske Lustig — Ja bih se zadržao na ovom vašem die Nachgebore- Scott and other famous film makers. Currently, Lustig also organizacije filmskih radnika grada Zagreba, njegovo je ime nen, što znači naknadno rođeni, kasnije rođeni ili rođeni nakon. teaches at the Academy of Dramatic Art in Zagreb and is the bilo Štef Draganić, hitno reagirao i toga odmah dao izbaciti Ne okreći se, sine snimljen je ‘56. godine, znači, to je bilo prije founder and honorary president of the Jewish Film Festival. iz ekipe. Važno je da je Branko Bauer odmah zvao Draganića točno 57 godina i upravo je tužno i žalosno da u ovoj Lijepoj i rekao mu da više ne želi da taj čovjek ostane samo zato što našoj još dan danas ima tih Nachgeborenen, odnosno ljudi koji ORIS — When I recently saw the movie Ne okreći se, sine je bio član Partije. To su mi doživljaji iz Ne okreći se, sine. U su rođeni nakon i koji uopće ne znaju što se dogodilo, a što je (Don’t Look Back, My Son), one of the most important mov- završnom prizoru filma u kojem se motor vrti u krug, a za koji najstrašnije, njih to uopće ne zanima. Obilazeći grad kolegica ies of the Croatian film industry, which in some of its best svi misle da je genijalna zamisao, dogodilo se zapravo to da se i ja zaustavljali smo mlade ljude na cesti, na Trgu bana Josipa sequences even reminds me of Rosselini’s movies from the pokvario volan, ispao je, zaustavio se na rubu šume i počeo se Jelačića, i pitali ih: Znate li što je to holokaust?, Znate li tko su 1940s, I saw your name as executive producer on the closing vrtiti u krug. To je bio izvrstan kadar. partizani?, Znate li što je antifašizam? Ostali smo zapanjeni credits. I realized that you had a double public role: you were a ORIS — Koja se godina smatra početkom producentske da 80 % ljudi nije znalo odgovor na postavljena pitanja. Ne film maker but you also enlightened and educated those who, kinematografije kod nas, ‘56.?¶ Branko Lustig — Pa ‘56. Branko Bauer, Ne okreći okreći se, sine film je koji je, kao što ste spomenuli, jako sličan in the German speaking world, are called die Nachgeborenen. je kinematografija još bila državna i Jadran film je imao fondove se sine, 1956., prizori Rosseliniju; to je zato što je Branko Bauer bio pod utjecajem What did it mean to you at the time? ¶ Branko Lustig — I od Ministarstva kulture. Tada je radilo dosta dramaturga. Mladi iz filma Rosselinija i njegovi filmovi, poput Tri Ane, Ne okreći se, sine, would like to stop here a bit to say a few words about what dramaturzi koji danas izlaze s Akademije nemaju posla jer naši Branko Bauer, Don’t Samo ljudi, Boško Buha, filmovi su koji su na neki način pod you mention, die Nachgeborenen, which means those born mladi režiseri ne trebaju dramaturge; oni su i dramaturzi i reži- are still those who are the Nachgeborenen, people who are Look Back My Son, neizravnim, ali ipak utjecajem neorealizma. Ti filmovi poka- subsequently, later or after. Ne okreći se, sine was made in seri, što je krivo. born after and have no idea what has happened, but who, 1956, scenes from the film zuju da je Branko Bauer bio među našim najboljim režiserima. 1956, which means this was exactly 57 years ago, and it is ORIS — Tada su filmovi imali svojeg dramaturga, a kasnije and that is most disturbing, are not interested in the history (hfa) Osim toga, bio je jako dobar čovjek. Ne okreći se, sine ostao very sad that here today, in Our Beautiful Homeland, there se kinematografija smatra autorskom jer je režiser radio sve at all. My colleague and I walked around the city and stopped young people in the street, at the Ban Jelačić Square, and asked them: Do you know what Holocaust is? Do you know who the Partisans are? Do you know what anti-fascism is? We were shocked that almost 80% of the people didn’t know the answer to those questions. Ne okreći se, sine is, as you have mentioned, very similar to Rosselini’s movies; it is because Branko Bauer was influenced by Rosselini and his movies like Tri Ane (Three Girls Named Ana), Ne okreći se, sine, Samo ljudi (Only People), Boško Buha, were indirectly influenced by Italian Neorealism. These movies showed that Branko Bauer was one of our best film directors. Besides, he was a very good man. I remember Ne okreći se, sine because it was the start for me. I began working in the Croatian or, at that time, Yugoslav film industry, but although the production house Jugoslavija film used to decide in advance which movies were going to be bought, there was always a Croatian film. I remember a great anecdote from Ne okreći se, sine. Assistant director, Simo Dubajić, who worked for Branko Bauer, was an extreme nationalist. When I joined the film crew, he said: Branko, we don’t need this Jew! If only Hitler had burned him! I was very

206 oris, broj 84, godina 2013 oris, number 84, year 2013 Branko Lustig, Intervju Branko Lustig, Interview 207 ORIS — At that time movies had their dramaturges, and later, film industry was considered to be author-driven because film directors did everything, even wrote scripts.¶ Branko Lustig — Yes, but it depends on the director. Vatroslav Mim- ica always wrote his own scripts, whereas Veljko Bulajić never did so, and they are contemporaries. Veljko Bulajić’s scripts were written by his brother – Stevo Bulajić. ORIS — How come that Jadran film cooperated with Italian film artists?¶ Branko Lustig — Veljko Vlahović, secretary of the Central Committee of the Croatian Communist Party and Togliatti, secretary of the Communist Party of Italy, met and agreed that the Communist Party of Yugoslavia and the Communist Party of Italy would together make a movie which would be directed by the communist Guiseppe de Santis. There were so-called Red Barons in Italy at the time; sort of snobs who entered the Communist Party. They had villas on Monte Mario in Rome and special studios where dramaturges worked for them. Zavattini, Ugo Piro and were among them. The movie we made for the communist parties of the two countries was very good. This movie, Cesta duga godinu dana (The Road a Year Long), started very strange for me. Ivo Vrhovec, who had recently joined Jadran film, called me and asked whether I knew Italian. When I said I did not, he told me: You will now! They sent me to Vinogradska Street where there was a lady who taught Italian and I went to see her every day for a month. When Guiseppe arrived, he was surprised that I spoke Italian so well. Even today my Italian is so good that everyone thinks I am from Rome. That is how I ended up working with Guiseppe de i pisao i scenarij. ¶ Branko Lustig — Da, ali to ovisi o reži- surprised when Štef Draganić, the deputy president of the u Vinogradsku ulicu gdje je živjela jedna gospođa koja je podu- Santis. In the movie, I was neither an executive producer, nor a seru. je uvijek pisao svoj scenarij, a Veljko communist organisation of Zagreb film workers, promptly čavala talijanski i tamo sam odlazio svaki dan mjesec dana. Kad production designer; I was a jack-of-all-trades and constantly Bulajić nikada, a živjeli su u isto vrijeme. Veljku Bulajiću sce- removed him from the crew. It is important that Branko Bauer je Guiseppe došao, začudio se kako dobro govorim talijanski. with Guiseppe, so when the movie was completed, he took me narije je pisao njegov brat – Stevo Bulajić . immediately called Draganić and told him that he did not that Još danas govorim tako da svi misle da sam Rimljanin. Tako sam to Italy where I worked in De Paolis Studios. I was an ispettore ORIS — Kako je došlo do suradnje Jadran filma s talijanskim man to stay only because he was a member of the Communist došao Guiseppeu de Santisu. U tom filmu nisam bio direktor di produzione, which is actually a production designer, and I filmskim umjetnicima? ¶ Branko Lustig — Veljko Vlahović, Party. Those are the memories I have from Ne okreći se, sine. filma, nisam bio ni vođa snimanja; bio sam djevojka za sve i made two movies there. I also met Liana Orfei, fell in love with sekretar ck-a, i sekretar Komunističke partije Italije, koji je tada In the final scene, when there is a motorcycle spinning, which bio sam stalno s Giuseppeom tako da me je on na kraju, kad je her and brought her circus to Zagreb in around 1963. This was bio Togliatti, našli su se i dogovorili da će Komunistička partija everybody thinks is a brilliant idea, what in effect happened film završio, odveo u Italiju. Tako sam došao u Italiju, gdje sam my circus adventure for which I am not sorry because I learned Jugoslavije i Komunistička partija Italije zajednički napraviti was that the handlebars broke and came off, and the motor- zatim radio u studijima De Paolis. Tamo sam bio ispettore di a lot about organization. I also learned a lot about organization film koji će režirati komunist Guiseppe de Santis. U ono vrijeme cycle stopped at the end of the forest and started spinning. produzione, to je zapravo bio vođa snimanja, i tamo sam radio from the Germans because before the movie Ne okreći se, sine I u Italiji je bilo takozvanih Crvenih barona; to su bili jako bogati It was an excellent scene. dva filma, upoznao Lianu Orfei, u nju se zaljubio i njezin cirkus worked with them on a German movie. Unbelievable, I who was ljudi koji su iz hohštapleraja ušli u Komunističku partiju. Imali ORIS — What year is considered to be the beginning of oko ‘63. godine doveo u Zagreb. To je bila moja avantura s in a concentration camp! su vile po Monte Mariu u Rimu i posebne studije u kojima su the production-driven film industry in our country, 1956? cirkusom i nije mi žao jer sam jako puno naučio o organizaciji. ORIS — Where were those co-productions shot? ¶ Branko za njih radili dramaturzi. Među njima su bili Zavattini, Ugo Piro ¶ Branko Lustig — Well, in 1956 film industry was still owned O organizaciji sam puno naučio i od Nijemaca jer sam s njima Lustig — In Zagreb, Vojvodina. We were making a movie i Elio Petri. Film koji smo snimali za komunističke partije tih by the state and Jadran film received funds from the Ministry of prije Ne okreći se, sine radio jedan njemački film. Nevjerojatno, at Palić Lake, near Subotica. I had just graduated from the dviju zemalja bio je jako dobar. Taj film, Cesta duga godinu Culture. Back then, a lot of dramaturges were employed. Young ja koji sam bio u logoru! Academy; it was in 1955, my last year. I was called from Jadran dana, za mene je počeo jako čudno. Pozvao me Ivo Vrhovec, dramaturges who graduate from the Academy today have no ORIS — Gdje su se radile te koprodukcije? ¶ Branko film and I ended up in the film industry. koji je tek došao u Jadran film, i pitao me znam li talijanski. Kad job because our young film directors do not need dramaturges; Lustig — U Zagrebu, u Vojvodini. Radili smo film na Paliću ORIS — You graduated acting from the Academy? ¶ Branko sam rekao da ne znam, rekao mi je: Sad ćeš znati! Poslali su me they are both film directors and dramaturges, which is wrong. kod Subotice. Ja sam upravo bio završio Akademiju, to je bila Lustig — Yes, I graduated acting. I was already hired by the

208 oris, broj 84, godina 2013 oris, number 84, year 2013 Branko Lustig, Intervju Branko Lustig, Interview 209 Zagreb Drama Theatre (today Gavella City Drama Theatre). Moj ulazak u američku My entry into the American Gavella was very fond of me, although everyone tends to say that for themselves today. He really liked me and we always kinematografiju vrlo je jednostavan. film industry is very simple. quarrelled. I was also a master of ceremony at film screenings; Upoznao sam prave ljude I met the right people at the that was my first contact with film. I would say something like: Dear Comrades, I would like to present the authors of the u pravo vrijeme right time film – , etc. Once I was in the movie theatre Balkan giving closing remarks for the movie Plavi 9 (Blue 9). When I got out, I was approached by the director of Jadran film, comrade Kunkera, who asked me whether I spoke Hungarian. When I confirmed, they asked me whether I spoke German and I said that I did. They asked me then whether I wanted to work in the film industry. I replied that I needed to come back by September for the beginning of the theatre season. In the movie which was shot at Palić Lake, I was first an interpreter. The film which is a cult film in Germany today, starring a very famous actress Liselotte Pulver and actor Gunnar Möller, was called Ich denke oft an Piroschka (I Often Think of Piroschka). By the end of shooting, I became a production designer since I already knew everybody and all who worked on the set were my friends. I slowly became a film worker. I returned to Zagreb, worked on Ne okreći se, sine and then on Samo ljudi (Only People) with Branko Bauer.

Orson Welles, Radley Metzger, Score,

zadnja godina, ‘55. Zatim su me zvali iz Jadran filma i tako sam Vratio sam se natrag u Zagreb, otišao u Ne okreći se, sine, a ORIS — You also worked with Radley Metzger – on the movie 1930-ih završio na filmu. potom u Samo ljudi s Brankom Bauerom. Score? ¶ Branko Lustig — That is the second part of my 1974., prizori iz filma

Orson Welles, ORIS — Vi ste završili glumu na Akademiji? ¶ Branko ORIS — Radili ste i s Radleyom Metzgerom – film Score? career; I already started doing co-productions. I didn’t speak Radley Metzger, Score,

in 1930s Lustig — Da, završio sam glumu. Već sam imao angažman ¶ Branko Lustig — To je drugo razdoblje moje karijere, tada English well before I came to America; then I really invested 1974, scenes from the film (aup) u Zagrebačkom dramskom kazalištu (danas Gradsko dramsko sam već počeo raditi koprodukcije. Nisam dobro znao engleski a lot of effort. I started working with famous directors and I kazalište Gavella). Bio sam ljubimac Gavelle, mada to svi za dok nisam došao u Ameriku; tada sam si dao truda. Onda sam really got along well with them, especially with Orson Welles. (hfa) sebe kažu danas. Ja sam to zaista bio i uvijek smo se svađali. počeo raditi s poznatim režiserima i mogu vam reći da sam se Jadran film sent me then to Scott Bay, where Radley Metzger, Bio sam i konferancijer na filmskim predstavama; bio je to moj s njima jako dobro slagao, posebno s Orsonom Wellesom. Tada one of the best American directors at the time, was making prvi kontakt s filmom. Znate: Dragi drugovi i drugarice, da me je Jadran film poslao u uvalu Scott, gdje se nalazio Radley the famous The Opening of Misty Beethoven. vam sada predstavim autore filma – Antun Nalis!, itd. U ono Metzger, jedan od najjačih američkih režisera koji je radio jedan ORIS — It was in effect a pornographic film?¶ Branko vrijeme bio sam u kinu Balkan, tamo sam odjavljivao Plavi 9, i od najboljih američkih filmova tog doba, The Opening of Misty Lustig — It was more of an art film. If you search the Inter- kad sam izašao van, pristupio mi je direktor Jadran filma, drug Beethoven. net for Radley Metzger, you will find that Misty Beethoven is a Kunkera, i pitao me govorim li mađarski. Kad sam odgovorio da ORIS — To je zapravo bio pornografski film? ¶ Branko cult film. Metzger also didScore , and score can have a double govorim, pitali su me govorim li njemački, na što sam također Lustig — To je bio više art film. Ako danas na Internetu meaning. It was not a porn film but it was on the borderline; it odgovorio potvrdno. Pitali su me zatim želim li biti na filmu, potražite Radley Metzger, kao kultni film naći ćete Misty had a gay and a lesbian subject matter. It was a very amusing, na što sam odgovorio da se moram vratiti u rujnu jer počinje Beethoven. Metzger je radio i film koji se zvaoScore , a score a very interesting movie. kazališna sezona. U filmu koji se snimao na Paliću najprije sam može imati dvostruko značenje. Taj film nije bio porno, ali je ORIS — Radley Metzger allegedly always made two versions bio prevoditelj. Film koji je danas kultni film u Njemačkoj, s bio na granici; imao je malo gay tematike, malo lezbijske. Bio of his movies; a soft version for the movie theatres and the jako poznatom glumicom koja se zvala Liselotte Pulver i glum- je to jako zgodan, jako interesantan film. other hardcore version? ¶ Branko Lustig — True. There cem Gunnarom Möllerom, zvao se Ich denke oft an Piroschka ORIS — Postoji legenda da je Radley Metzger uvijek radio were two versions for special clubs. We cooperated very well. (Često mislim na Piroschku). Na kraju filma pretvorio sam se u dvije verzije svojih filmova. Jednu mekanu verziju, koja He did not even have to think because I knew what had to be

¶ vođu snimanja jer sam već sve znao i svi su mi radnici bili prija- Branko Bauer, Samo ljudi, 1957., Branko Bauer, Only People, (hfa) je bila za kina, i drugu koja je bila hardcore? Branko done. He gave me to read a script about the life of Evita Peron, telji, s njima sam se družio. Polako sam postao filmski radnik. prizor iz filma 1957, a scene from the film Lustig — Istina. Postoje dvije verzije, to je bilo za specijalne Little Mother. I said: Why not, let’s do it! Željko Senečić was

210 oris, broj 84, godina 2013 oris, number 84, year 2013 Branko Lustig, Intervju Branko Lustig, Interview 211 klubove. Jako smo dobro surađivali; on nije trebao ni misliti, ja a set designer. We cobbled it up in Zagreb in some six weeks, te koprodukcije; išao sam u Čakovec i kupio 481 konja i doveli started shooting movies with big stars. We also made movies in sam znao što sve treba. Dao mi je da čitam scenarij o životu with Hardy Krüger’s daughter. We shot some porn scenes, smo ih na zagrebački hipodrom gdje smo za njih sagradili štale the beautiful landscape of Mokrice and Brežice in Slovenia. Guys Evite Peron Little Mother (Mala majka). Ja sam rekao: Zašto ne, especially in Mihanovićeva Street, in the basement with the i počeli snimati filmove s velikim zvijezdama. Snimali smo i u had no transport so they would ride from Brežice to Zagreb and idemo to raditi! Željko Senečić je bio scenograf. U Zagrebu smo pools. There were naked girls and naked men. It was supposed prekrasnom ambijentu Mokrica i Brežica u Sloveniji. Dečki nisu we would prepare meals on the road. Those were great times. If to skrpali za nekih šest tjedana s kćerkom Hardyja Krügera. to portray the officer’s club where Evita met Peron. imali prijevoz pa su jahali od Brežica do Zagreba, a na putu a horse had been injured, we would have shot it and saved the Imali smo porno scene, naročito u Mihanovićevoj, u podrumu ORIS — Did you have any problems with moral or some other smo kuhali ručkove. To su bila fenomenalna vremena. Ako bi meat in fridges for salamis. So the Italians had very good salamis gdje se nalaze bazeni. Tamo smo imali gole djevojke i gole issues? Did anyone complain? ¶ Branko Lustig — We shot se konj ozlijedio, ustrijelili bismo ga i meso stavili u frižidere when Italian films were shot in Yugoslavia. muškarce. To je predstavljalo oficirski klub u kojem je Evita it there and no one knew about it. za salamu. Tako da su u vrijeme snimanja talijanskih filmova u ORIS — You mentioned that movies were screened in upoznala Perona. ORIS — I do not think it could be done today. ¶ Branko Jugoslaviji Talijani imali jako dobre salame. Katančićeva Street. When something was forbidden or ORIS — Spomenuli ste da su se u Katančićevoj gledali filmovi. Kad bi se nešto zabranilo ili bi se uskratila dozvola, je li to bilo u nekoj varijanti pisanog dokumenta ili je zabrana filma bila usmena? ¶ Branko Lustig — Jadran film bi od ministra kulture dobio nadoknadu i gotovo. ORIS — Sjećam se da je u vrijeme kad ste došli u Jadran film Nikša Fulgosi snimao filmMala Jole koji je također bio povu- čen. Kasnije su došle veće produkcije – često s režiserom Velj- kom Bulajićem. Postoji priča da se novac skupljao tako da je sam Bulajić obilazio firme i tražio novce za film.¶ Branko Lustig — To je istina, on je skupljao novce, sponzore. Uglav- nom, bio je državni režiser i za svaki film koji je radio imao je državnog sponzora. ORIS — On je zapravo sam radio ono što radi producent? ¶ Branko Lustig — Da. On je bio i producent svojih filmova. Osobno smatram da je Veljko Bulajić jedan od rijetkih režisera, ne spominjem sad Bauera, koji je svjetski režiser. On je ovdje na jednom nivou koji nije zaslužio, podcjenjivan je. Njegov film Vlak bez voznog reda jedan je od najboljih filmova neorealizma.

Veljko Bulajić, Ridley Scott, Gladijator, ORIS — Jeste li imali kakvih problema zbog ćudoređa ili nečeg Lustig — No one knew. I smuggled the negative of the ORIS — Možete li pojasniti na koji su način ovamo dolazile the permit was denied, was this done in writing or orally? Vlak bez voznog reda, drugog? Je li Vam netko prigovarao? ¶ Branko Lustig — Mi movie Evita to New York in a suitcase. We didn’t register it; strane filmske kompanije? Jesu li one pristupale Vama ili Vi ¶ Branko Lustig — Jadran film would receive compensation 2000., prizor iz filma 1959., prizori iz filma

smo to tamo snimali, a da nitko nije ni znao. the movie couldn’t be shown. Metzger then blackmailed the njima? ¶ Branko Lustig — To je bio jedan veliki politički from the Minister of Culture and that was it. Ridley Scott, Gladiator,

Veljko Bulajić, 2000, a scene from ORIS — Mislim da to u današnje vrijeme ne bi prošlo. Argentinean Government and sold them the movie. I believe moment. Postojanje željezne zavjese bila je velika prilika za ORIS — I remember that when you came to Jadran film, Nikša Train Without a ¶ Branko Lustig — Nitko nije znao. Taj film, Evita, prošver- he made a copy, he was a very cunning man and I believe that Jadran i Avalu film. Jadran film je to bolje iskoristio od Avale. Fulgosi made the movie Mala Jole (Little Jole) which was the film Timetable, 1959, scenes from the film cao sam kao negativ u kuferu u New York. Nije bio ni pri- he actually sold them a copy for a lot of money. Bilo koji film sa scenarijem koji se događao u Pragu, Budim- also withdrawn. Later, bigger productions followed – often (hfa) javljen, nije se smio emitirati. Onda je Metzger ucjenjivao ORIS — There were no official censorship or film ratings in pešti, Ukrajini ili bilo gdje drugdje gdje se u ono vrijeme nije directed by Veljko Bulajić. Rumour has it that Bulajić him- (hfa) argentinsku vladu i prodao im negativ. Mislim da je napravio Yugoslavia at the time? ¶ Branko Lustig — There was no moglo snimati, snimao se Hrvatskoj. Mi smo bili jako dobri, self went to companies and collected money for his movies. kopiju, bio je jako lukav čovjek i zapravo im je prodao kopiju censorship in Yugoslavia. When a movie was made, the com- Senečić je bio genijalan scenograf, kao i Tadej. Dozvole za ¶ Branko Lustig — That is true; he collected money, spon- za velike novce. mission of the Central Committee would see it in the base- snimanje bilo gdje u gradu Zagrebu dobivali smo bez ikakvih sors. He was mostly a state director and had a state sponsor ORIS — Tada u Jugoslaviji nije bilo neke službene cenzure ment in Katančićeva Street where film is still situated. problema i zatvarali smo dućane, a da se nitko nije mogao for every movie he made. ili predikata? ¶ Branko Lustig — U Jugoslaviji nije bilo Screenings for the members of the commission took place in buniti zbog izgubljenog prometa. Došla je Lina Wertmüller, a ORIS — He actually did the job of a producer? ¶ Branko cenzure. Kad je film bio gotov, gledala ga je komisija ck-a that basement; they would see the movie and rated it, and the s njom i glumac Giancarlo Giannini s kojim sam se jako spri- Lustig — Yes. He also produced his movies. I personally think u podrumu u Katančićevoj, u kojem se danas nalazi Croatia late Kruno Simon would simultaneously interpret the movies. jateljio. Postao je jedan od mojih najboljih prijatelja. Kad sam that Veljko Bulajić is one of rare directors, not including Bauer, film. U tom su se podrumu održavale projekcije za članove Ratings determined the amount of money a film would receive. snimao Hanibala s Anthonyjem Hopkinsom, nagovorio sam who is a director of international scale. He does not deserve tih komisija koji su gledali film i davali mu predikate, a pok. Co-production manager of Jadran film landed good contracts Ridleya Scotta da uzme Giancarla Gianninija za ulogu inspek- the treatment he is receiving here, he is underrated. His movie Kruno Simon simultano je prevodio filmove. Po predikatima se in Italy. A lot of horses had to be acquired for those co-produc- tora. Zahvaljujući Sulejmanu Kapiću Jadran film je odvajao Vlak bez voznog reda (Train Without a Timetable) is one of the dobivao novac. Direktor Jadran filma za koprodukcije sklopio je tions; I went to Čakovec and bought 481 horses. We brought novac od zarade i davao u fond za hrvatsku kinematografiju, best neorealist movies. dobre ugovore u Italiji. Bilo je potrebno nabaviti puno konja za them to the Hippodrome in Zagreb, where we built stables and za filmove koji su se proizvodili u Zagrebu. To su bila zlatna ORIS — Can you clarify how foreign film companies came

212 oris, broj 84, godina 2013 oris, number 84, year 2013 Branko Lustig, Intervju Branko Lustig, Interview 213 to Croatia? Did they approach you or vice versa? ¶ Branko vremena hrvatske kinematografije. U ono vrijeme imali smo marriage lasted for eight years until we had a row. Lustig — It was a big political moment. The Iron Curtain was kadar, šminkere, maskere, garderobijere, rekvizitere; sve to mi ORIS — Let us change the course of our conversation. Since a great opportunity for Jadran filmand Avala film. Jadran film smo sami izgradili. Kad smo snimali Gladijatora, otišao sam u you mentioned Schindler’s List (this year is the 20th anniver- made a better use of it than Avala. Any movie with a script London i na setu sam našao puno naših koji su otišli u Englesku sary of the movie), it might be good to talk about that impor- which took place in Prague, Budapest, Ukraine or anywhere i tamo postali šminkeri. tant part of your biography, your childhood in the concen- else where movies could not be made at the time was shot ORIS — Kad ste spomenuli Gladijatora, to nas već upućuje na tration camp. I have noticed a certain parallelism with Imre in Croatia. We were very good; Senečić was a brilliant set Vašu američku karijeru. Bilo bi zanimljivo od Vas čuti kako je Kertész, the author of the novel Fateless. One of the char- designer, so was Tadej. We would get permits for filming any- to išlo; taj Vaš ulazak u američku kinematografiju. ¶ Branko acteristics of the novel is that it represents a development where in Zagreb with no problem and we would close shops Lustig — Moj ulazak u američku kinematografiju vrlo je jed- of , or fascist repression, as a disease which without people being able to complain because of the loss of nostavan. Uglavnom, ne mogu reći da je to bilo znanje. Defini- starts with seemingly harmless symptoms. First, he cannot profit. Lina Wertmüller came, and with her Giancarlo Gian- tivno nisam znao više od kolega u Americi, ali imao sam strašnu go to the same school as others, then they take them to do nini, an actor whom I befriended. He became one of my best sreću. Upoznao sam prave ljude u pravo vrijeme. U tome mi je some work, then his father unexpectedly disappears and he friends. When I was filmingHannibal with Anthony Hopkins, I pomogao film Fiddler on the roof i velika serija Winds of war suddenly ends up in Auschwitz. Are there any parallels with persuaded Ridley Scott to cast Giancarlo Giannini for the role te War and Remembrance. your story? ¶ Branko Lustig — No, there aren’t any. It is of the inspector. Thanks to Sulejman Kapić , Jadran film put ORIS — Je li pomogao i Sofijin izbor? ¶ Branko interesting that you mentioned Kertész. About two days ago some of the profits into the fund for the Croatian film industry, Lustig — Točno, i Sofijin izbor. Ali ove dvije serije jako su mi I received an email in which a director/writer from Budapest for movies which were made in Zagreb. Those were the golden pomogle. Došao sam u Ameriku i hbo me odmah angažirao informs me about Ms Julie Orringer who has written the book days of the Croatian film industry. At the time we had profes- za jedan televizijski film. To je bio moj prvi producentski film. Invisible Bridge and is asking me whether I would like to do the sionals; make-up artists, mask makers, wardrobe assistants, Onda se ta serija počela emitirati; moje se ime pojavljivalo movie with him. My friend Koltai Lajosh, a film director who prop managers; we built it all ourselves. When I was shooting svake večeri, dobio sam Emmyja i još neke nagrade i tako sam was the director of photography in the movie White Palace, the Gladiator, I went to London and on the set saw many zapravo počeo. Opet sam imao sreće jer sam se prijavio kod would direct the movie, and Imre Kertész supports the project. Croatians who moved to England and became make-up artists. Spielberga, ali me on nije primio. Primila me Katy Kennedy koja But let us go back to your question. I think that to survive the

Branko Lustig i Od trenutka kad su vas počeli ORIS — The Gladiator leads us to your American career. je danas producentica, a u ono je vrijeme bila tajnica. Čekao Holocaust, the Nazi concentration camps, you had to be lucky. Dušan Vukotić na It would be interesting to hear from you how it happened, sam dvije godine da me nazovu, a onda su mi dali scenarij From the moment they started loading you into wagons, you geff-u 1967. ukrcavati u vagone, postali ste about your entry into the American film industry. ¶ Branko Schindlerove liste. Potom sam opet imao sreću da sam se were very lucky to survive, a sheer coincidence. You became a

Branko Lustig and broj, više niste bili čovjek. Lustig — My entry into the American film industry is very susreo sa Stevenom i da smo razgovarali; umjesto pet minuta number and from the moment you became a number, you were Dušan Vukotić simple. Basically, I cannot say that it was because of my knowl- koje mi je poklonila njegova tajnica, razgovarali smo sat i pol i no longer human. It was all a Kafkaesque possibility of survival. at geff, 1967 To je sve bila jedna kafkijanska edge. I definitely did not know more than my American col- sprijateljili se i ja sam radio i dobio Oscara. Peterson nije htio ORIS — Was this possibility of survival based on the fact that (ahfs) mogućnost preživljavanja leagues, but I was very fortunate. I met the right people at the raditi Gladijatora, preporučili smo Ridleya i on je to prihvatio. in the whole system there were exceptions, that someone right time. The movie Fiddler on the Roof helped, as well as the Otišao sam do Ridleya, on me zavolio i taj je brak trajao osam who was there who could help? ¶ Branko Lustig — The hit series Winds of War and War and Remembrance. godina, dok se nismo posvađali. exception proves the rule. I struggled as best as I could. I was From the moment they started ORIS — Did the movie Sophie’s Choice help? ¶ Branko ORIS — Napravimo jedan zaokret; pri spomenu Schindle- young, I was ten or eleven, but I was always ambitious and Lustig — Exactly, Sophie’s Choice as well. But these two series rove liste (ove godine obilježava se 20. godišnjica snimanja showing off. I spoke German well because we spoke German loading you into wagons, you helped a great deal. I came to the States and hbo immediately Schindlerove liste) možda bi bilo dobro da porazgovaramo o at home and by the end, during those last couple of months, I became a number, you were hired me to do a tv film for them. It was the first film I produced. toj za Vas biografski bitnoj odrednici, tj. djetinstvu u logoru. became a messenger. It is a wonder that I stayed alive, not only Then the series was broadcast, my name would appear on the Tu vidim izvjesni paralelizam s Imreom Kertészom, autorom in Auschwitz. None of us who survived had the same experi- no longer human. It was all a screen every night, I won an Emmy and some other awards romana Čovjek bez sudbine. Jedna od značajki Čovjeka bez ence; I never took things to my heart, it was not a trauma Kafkaesque possibility of survival and that was actually how I started. I was lucky again because I sudbine jest da pokazuje razvijanje holokausta, odnosno faši- for me. I slept calmly. When I was given human flesh, I ate it. applied for the Spielberg Studio but he did not even want to see stičke represije, kao bolest koja počinje bezazlenim simpto- I only cannot eat chicken anymore because it reminds me of me. Katy Kennedy, who is a producer today and was a secretary mima. On najprije ne smije ići u istu školu, onda ih vode na that experience. at the time, decided to see me. I waited two years to be called nekakve radove, zatim mu iznenada nestane otac, pa se on ORIS — How did you know that you were eating human and then they gave me the script of Schindler’s List. I was for- odjednom nađe u Auschwitzu. Postoji li neki izvjesni parale- flesh? ¶ Branko Lustig — The Russians told us. Russian tunate to meet Steven and talk to him; instead of five minutes lizam u vašem slučaju? ¶ Branko Lustig — Ne postoji. Inte- prisoners baked it. We would wash faeces to take out a bean his secretary gave me, we talked for an hour and a half, became resantno da ste spomenuli Kertésza. Prije otprilike dva dana which was not digested. We had no emotions towards any- friends and I worked for him and won an Oscar. Peterson did dobio sam e-mail u kojem mi jedan režiser/pisac iz Budimpešte thing human any more. When you have so many lice on you, not want to direct the Gladiator, we recommended Ridley and javlja o gospođi Julie Orringer koja je napisala knjigu Invisible nothing remains; it is only important to stay alive, but you do he accepted the offer. I went to see Ridley, he liked me and our bridge (Nevidljivi most) i pita me bi li s njime htio raditi taj film. not even know why. It is an instinct. My library mostly contains

214 oris, broj 84, godina 2013 oris, number 84, year 2013 Branko Lustig, Intervju Branko Lustig, Interview 215 Steven Spielberg, would wait for the arrival of wagons with frozen people and Schindlerova lista, she would personally carry a bowl of warm water. She was noble 1993., prizor iz filma but I am not so sure about Schindler. Steven is also not sure but Steven Spielberg, we are both sure that such a thing must never happen again. Schindler’s List, 1993, That is what I am fighting for today and the reason I have come a scene from the film back from the States. I wish that never again Europe experi- (aup) ences what is happening today in Hungary, Lithuania, Slova- kia and partly in former Eastern Germany. I have come back so that there would be more people who fight against it and I hope that the festival (Jewish Film Festival, from this year called the Festival of Tolerance) I have organized contributes to the improvement of the situation. Various lectures I give, in Knin among other places, I consider an activity similar to that of Don Quixote; I am actually tilting at windmills and, lately, the wind is very strong, and the windmills are spinning faster and faster and it is very hard because I do not have a spear. ORIS — We would like to end the interview with your engagement at the Academy of Dramatic Art in Zagreb, where you teach at the Department of Production. ¶ Branko Lustig — I taught at the Department of Production: the room can take up to twenty people and there were 60 stu- dents. I talked about many things; I mostly wanted to prove

Steven Spielberg,

Moj prijatelj Koltai Lajosh koji je napravio film White Palace stories about people who have survived the Holocaust; every Steven Spielberg, Schindlerova Steven Spielberg, Schindler’s List, (aup) 1974. (Bijela palača), a koji je inače snimatelj, režirao bi film, a Imre person describes it in their own way and for each one the lista, 1993., prizor iz filma 1993, a scene from the film Kertész podupire projekt. No, da se vratim Vašem pitanju. Holocaust has a different meaning. I am sure that if these six Steven Spielberg, 1974 Mislim da je preživjeti holokaust, nacističke logore, sreća. Od million people became alive, they would each have a different provareno. Nismo više imali nikakvih osjećaja prema ljudskim trenutka kad su vas počeli ukrcavati u vagone, bila je takva story. When people ask me about the Holocaust, I do not like stvarima i kad na sebi imate toliko ušiju, tu više nema ništa; (hfa) sreća da ostanete živi, jedna velika slučajnost. Postali ste broj, to philosophize too much; I was lucky; I was in the right place samo je važno ostati živ, a više i ne znate zašto ostati živ. To je a onog trenutka kad ste postali samo broj, više niste bili čovjek. at the right time, I did not turn left, but right. There were many instinkt. Moja biblioteka uglavnom sadrži priče o ljudima koji To je sve bila jedna kafkijanska mogućnost preživljavanja. factors; my mother said that I was 16 when I was 10. I was tall su preživili holokaust; svaki čovjek opisuje to na drukčiji način ORIS — Je li se ta mogućnost preživljavanja bazirala i na tome and younger children were liquidated earlier. i za svakog je holokaust nešto drugo. Kad bi tih šest milijuna da je u cijelom tom sistemu bilo i iznimaka, da se našao netko ORIS — Incomprehensible evil, which is fascism – can be ljudi oživjelo, siguran sam da bi svaki od njih imao drugu priču. that there is a difference between production in the States and tko bi mogao pomoći? ¶ Branko Lustig — Iznimke potvr- written and thought about a lot. While reporting on the trial Kad me pitaju o holokaustu, ne želim filozofirati, imao sam in Croatia. I wanted to tell people that you cannot attend four đuju pravila. Ja sam se probijao kako sam najbolje mogao. Bio of Adolf Eichmann, Hannah Arendt offered a definition. She sreće; u određenom trenutku našao sam se na pravom mjestu years of the Academy and become a director, because the end sam mlad, imao sam 10 – 11 godina, ali uvijek sam se gurao coined the term the banality of evil (Banalität des Bösen), i nisam otišao lijevo, nego desno. Bilo je raznih faktora; moja je products are the movies that we have today. I wanted to say naprijed i pravio se važan. Dobro sam govorio njemački jer su which sparked controversy and was not only greeted with mama rekla da imam 16 godina, a imao sam 10. Bio sam visok, that there can be no script without a dramaturge and I think njemački govorili kod kuće i tako sam na kraju, tih posljednjih approval. She portrayed Eichmann as a plain clerk, a com- a manju su djecu likvidirali ranije. it is one of the most important parts because a movie is based mjeseci, postao kurir. Čudo je da sam ostao živ, ne samo u pletely average person. ¶ Branko Lustig — I think that ORIS — Nepojmljivo zlo, što jest fašizam – o tome se može on a script. If the script is no good, believe me, neither will be Auschwitzu. Mi nismo, svaki od nas, doživljavali stvari na isti there were many Eichmanns but not all of them had the chance. jako puno pisati i razmišljati. Jednu definiciju izvela je Hannah the movie. The situation with our movies is very difficult. Let način; ja to nisam upijao u sebe, za mene to nije bila trauma. Eichmann was not a clerk, he was a Nazi. Schindler was a Nazi, Arendt izvještavajući o procesu Adolfu Eichmanu. Skovala je us go back to the beginning – Branko Bauer’s movies had a Mirno sam spavao. Kad su mi dali da jedem ljudsko meso, an opportunist; he saw that he could make a lot of money. His pojam o banalnosti zla (Banalität des Bösen), što je u neku script, had a soul that movies today do not have. I have the ja sam to jeo, jedino što više ne jedem piletinu jer me na to altruism grew every day, when he realized what he could do with ruku bilo i polemički shvaćeno, nije baš naišlo na odobravanje. impression that they do not know what they want to say. podsjeća. the money, that he could save lives. We are not sure whether Ona prikazuje Eichmana kao bijednog činovnika, kao posve ORIS — Do you think that the model of production which is ORIS — Kako ste znali da jedete ljudsko meso? ¶ Branko Schindler was a good or a bad person. It is very important. His prosječna čovjeka. ¶ Branko Lustig — Ja mislim da je bilo currently used needs to be changed? ¶ Branko Lustig — Most Lustig — Rusi su nam rekli. To su ruski zarobljenici tamo wife was a very good person. She is not shown in the movie, jako puno Eichmana, ali nisu svi imali priliku. Eichman nije bio definitely. I am not sure what I would do but I would definitely pekli. Mi smo prali izmet da bismo izvukli zrno graha koje nije but in the Czech Republic, where there the factory was, they činovnik, on je bio nacist. Schindler je bio nacist, oportunist, go back to the model with the Ministry of Culture.

216 oris, broj 84, godina 2013 oris, number 84, year 2013 Branko Lustig, Intervju Branko Lustig, Interview 217 vidio je da tu može dobro zaraditi. Njegov je altruizam rastao iz dana u dan, kad je vidio što novac može, da s novcem može spasiti živote. Mi ne znamo je li Schindler zapravo bio dobar ili loš čovjek. To je jako važno. Njegova je žena bila jako dobra osoba. Nje nema u filmu, ali oni su u Češkoj, gdje je bila tvor- nica, dočekivali vagone u kojima su bili smrznuti ljudi i ona je osobno nosila lavor s toplom vodom. Ona je bila plemenita, a za Schindlera nisam siguran. Ni Steven nije siguran, a u što smo sigurni i Steven i ja jest da se to više ne smije ponoviti. U tom smislu ja danas djelujem i u tom sam se smislu vratio iz Amerike. A ovdje u Europi da se više nikada ne dogodi ono što se danas događa u Mađarskoj, Litvi, Slovačkoj, djelomice u bivšoj istočnoj Njemačkoj. Došao sam da bi bilo više ljudi koji se bore protiv toga i ja se nadam da ovaj moj festival (Festival židovskog filma, od ove godine Festival tolerancije) koji ovdje radim doprinosi poboljšanju situacije. Razna predavanja koja održavam, između ostalih i u Kninu, smatram djelatnošću slič- nom Don Quijoteovom; idem zapravo protiv vjetrenjača i htio bih reći da u posljednje vrijeme vjetar jako puno puše i vjetre- njače se sve brže i brže okreću i jako je teško jer nemam koplje. ORIS — Završili bismo s Vašim angažmanom na Akademiji dramske umjetnosti u Zagrebu, tamo ste na Odsjeku pro- dukcije. ¶ Branko Lustig — Predavao sam na Produkciji; dvorana može primiti dvadeset ljudi, a bilo ih je 60. Govorio sam o svemu i svačemu; uglavnom sam želio dokazati razliku između produkcije u Americi i ovdje. Želio sam ljudima reći da se ne može slušati četiri godine Akademije i onda postati režiser jer onda dobivamo filmove poput ovih danas. Želio sam reći da ne može biti scenarija bez dramaturga i smatram da je to jedan od najvažnijih dijelova jer film počiva na scenariju. Ako scenarij nije dobar, budite uvjereni da film neće biti dobar. Kod naših filmova vrlo je teško. Da se vratimo na početak – filmovi Branka Bauera imali su scenarij, imali su dušu koju današnji filmovi nemaju. Imam dojam da ne znaju što hoće reći. ORIS — Mislite li da se treba mijenjati produkcijski model koji se ovdje trenutačno koristi? ¶ Branko Lustig — Definitivno mislim da da. Ne znam što bih učinio, ali sigurno bih vratio onaj model s Ministarstvom kulture.

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