Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

THURSDAY, 23 NOVEMBER 1967

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Questions [23 NOVEMBER] Questions 1877

Answer:- (1 and 2) "The former Executive Com­ mittee of the Q.A.T.B. submitted a super­ annuation scheme for consideration, but no finality was reached prior to the decision to introduce legislation to provide for the Ambulance Services Act. It was then deemed desirable that further consideration of the matter should be deferred until the new Act, providing for the appoint­ ment of the State Council of the Q.A.T.B. came into operation. This matter, together with the documents considered by the former Executive Committee, has been referred to the State Council of the Q.A.T.B., and I understand was discussed at the November meeting of that body. I have not been advised of any further developments."

ENTRANCE REQUIREMENTS FOR APPOINT­ MENT TO PUBLIC SERVICE Mr. Houston, pursuant to notice, asked The Premier,- What are the minimum requirements for (a) males and (b) females for appointment to professional or clerical positions in the Public Service from (i) Senior and (ii) Junior pub]i,c examinations?

Answer:- "The minimum requirements for appoint­ ment to positions in the Public Service for males and females are contained in Public Service Regulations 88 and 89. Clauses 17 of both Regulations were recently amended to provide, inter alia, that the Com­ missioner may accept a person as being THUR.SDA Y, 23 NOVEMBER, 1967 qualified for appointment to the Public Service where that person has obtained a total score of not less than eighteen (based Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, upon the gradings prescribed in the Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair matriculation rules of the University of at 11 a.m. Queensland) in the one Senior Public Examination in five subjects including QUESTIONS English, with a grading of three or more in each subject. This amendment takes SUPERANNUATION SCHEME FOR QUEENS­ effect as from January 1, 1968." LAND AMBULANCE TRANSPORT BRIGADE Mr. Hm.lbion, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Health,- YOLK CoLOUR IN FIXING EGG PRICES ( 1) Following a meeting of the State lVIr. Coburn for Mr. Aikens, pursuant to Council of the Queensland Ambulance notice, asked The Minister for Primary Transport Brigade on November 1, is it Industries,- proposed to implement a superannuation ( 1) Did the Egg Marketing Board or scheme? If so, (a) will this operate from appropriate authority increase the price of July 1, 1968, and (b) who is responsible eggs containing red yolks and, if so, how for deciding the basis of the scheme and is the colour of the yolk of eggs in the the commencement date? shell determined and what factual basis exists for the belief that consumers prefer (2) Did the previous State Executive of eggs with red yolks? the Q.A.T.B. present for his consideration a unanimously recommended scheme sub­ (2) If the colour of the yolk is to be mitted by the State Government Insurance the yardstick for quality and customer Office? If so (a) when was it received preference, will an inquiry be conducted to and (b) was it approved and, if not, why determine just what coloured yolk the not? majority of customers really prefer? 1878 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

Answers:- Answers:­ ( 1) "The Egg Marketing Board has (1) "Yes." created a differential in the prices it pays to growers for eggs with satisfactory and (2) "The report in question disclosed unsatisfactory yolk colour, but the satis­ that there are insufficient children at factory yclk colour is not red, but a dark Karumba at present to justify the provision yellow. Both red yolks and pale yellow of a State school. The interested parties yolks are considered to be unsatisfactory. are aware that a further application should The colour of the yolk of eggs in shell is be made to the Regional Director of determined by examination of samples Education, Longreach, when there are from growers' consignments. The Egg sufficient children in the area. Action is Matketing Board had received complaints being initiated, however, to over a number of years regarding the pale to meet the need for a yolks often associated with a predominantly arises." wheat or grain sorghum diet, and to deter­ mine consumer preference for yolk colour, conducted a survey amongst housewives iNTERSTATE CONCESSIONAL RAIL FARES who were asked to indicate there pre­ FOR PENSIONERS ferences from a graded colour chart." 1\ir. Davies for Mr. pursuam to notice, asked The Minister Trans- (2) "Yolk colour which can be con­ port,- trolled by dietary adjustment, is not a factor ( 1) Has any discussion taken place. influencing egg quality, but is purely a between the New South Wales Minister matter of consumer preference. As indi­ for Transport and himself concerning cated in ( 1), the Board has already con­ reciprocal half-fare rail tickets for pen­ ducted an inquiry to determine customers' sioners? If so, when will he be in preference. in this respect." position to issue a statement? (2) If no discussion has taken place. PAYMENT OF ABOVE-AWARD RATES BY will he discuss the matter with his counter­ LOCAL AUTHORITIES part in New South Wales? pursuant to notice, asked Answer:- Local Government,- (1 and 2) "I would refer the Honourable ( 1) Are Local Authorities required to Member to my reply of September 26 .. pay only those salaries and/ or wages to 1967, to a Question on this matter asked employees as are fixed by law? by the Honourable Member for Towns­ ville South. The position is unchanged."' (2) In the event of a Local Authority paying salaries and/or wages above those fixed by law, are the members of that JUNIOR HoMECRAFT EXAMINATION Local Authority jointly and severally PAPERS responsible for the payment of the Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked difference? The Minister for Education,- As I have received complaints con­ Answers:- cerning the questions and setting out of the (1) "Local authorities are required to Junior homecraft papers and as parents pay salaries and/ or wages in accordance have informed me that certain students with the relevant industrial awards." have not been taught the subjects, nor are they printed in Junior textbooks, thus (2) "There is no bar in law to a local causing undue worry to the pupils, will authority paying salaries and/or wages in (a) have the papers investigated and excess of the minimum provided by the arrange to have set marking standards relevant industrial awards." accord with the papers? Answer:- PROVISION OF SCHOOL AT KARUMBA "(a) The papers have been reviewed b} Mr. Bromley for Mr. WaUis-Smith, pur­ a Committee of Examiners. The opinion suant to notice, asked The Minister for of this committee is:-(i) No question was Education,- too difficult for Grade 10 students. Answering of questions did not call Further to his Answer to my Question knowledge outside the syllabus. Some on September 27 regarding the provision questions did not call for exact repro­ of a school at Karumba,- duction of text-book material, but were ( I) Has he received the Regional designed to test students' ability to reason Director's report? from facts which would have been absorbed in class instruction. (b) The (2) Has he made a decision concerning marking scheme adopted by examiners will the building of a school there and, if so, ensure that all reasonable attempts by when will the school be established? students will receive credit." Questions [23 NOVEMBER] Questions 1879

DECLARATION OF MCK!NLAY SHIRE AS PROVISION OF WATER-COOLER, DROUGHT-STRICKEN AREA RICHMOND RAILWAY STATION Mr. Lonergan, pursuant to notice, asked pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Primary Industries,- Transport,- ( 1) Is he aware that the McKinlay Shire In view of the high temperatures in Council area is suffering the effects of North-Western Queensland, will a severe drought? water-cooler be installed at railway station, as has been done (2) Will he take immediate action to at many stations where the heat is not so have the Shire declared drought-stricken? oppressive? If not, why are railwaymen in hot isolated areas so discriminated against? Answers:- Answer:- "1 am aware that adverse conditions "There is no discrimination against men the general area of the McKinlay Shire. In June 1966 the western portion working j,n hot and isolated areas. Indeed of the Shire was declared drought-stricken the policy in recent years has been to and the following month the rest of the improve amenities at an accelerated rate Shire was included. However as funds permit. As far as the provision March 1967 following an improvement of a water-cooler at Richmond Station is weather conditions only the eastern section concerned, it will be considered in the of Shire was left in the declared an1enities programme." drought area. At the end of September last a was received from the inspector of PROVISION OF PEDESTRIAN GATEWAY, Julia Creek that feed was becoming WYNNUM STATE HIGH SCHOOL scarce and the overall in the Mr. Davies for Mr. Harris, pursuant to Shire was again notice, asked The Minister for Education,­ recent approach As Works Department employees are at of the Graziers' employed at the Wynnum State Association and supporting recommenda- School, will he consider my request tions from the Honourable Member for of year to have a pedestrian gateway Flinders, my Departmental stock inspectors installed at the entrance to the school in in the area made various recommendations an endeavour to eliminate the existing to the Railway Department and yesterday dangerous congestion, especially as evi­ my received written advice denced during the disastrous fire which from Commissioner for Railways that occurred at the school on November 19? in addition to some other districts, the whole of the area from Quarrells to Answer:- Oorindi will be declared drought-stricken "Action will be taken to re-submit this as from proposal to the Department of Works for further consideration in relation to avail­ able funds." STOCK-PROOFING OF RAILWAY FENCES CHARTERS TOWER5-HUGHENDEN LINE ' INSTALLATION OF BooM GATES, LlNDUM Mr. pursuant to notice, asked AND \-VYNNUM CENTRAL RAILWAY The Minister Transport,- CROSSINGS ( 1 Is he aware that large sections of the Mr. Davies for Mr. Harris, pursuant to railway fence between Charters Towers and notice, asked The Minister for Transport,- Hughenden are not stock-proof? As he has stated that the South Brisbane (2) Will he reinstate the fencing gang to Lota railway line will not be closed, and have all repairs carried out, thereby will he urgently consider the installation preventing further stock losses? of boom gates at the Lindum and Wynnum Central railway crossings? Answer:- Answer:- 2) "The fencing between " Funds for the installation of electrically Towers and Hughenden does operated warning devices at railway require over certain sections and crossings have already been allocated for public are being invited on 1967-68 financial year. Consideration will November 25 for the construction of 32 be given to this request when the pro­ miles of fencing between Warreah and gramme is prepared for future years." Hughenden. The fencing gang which was disbanded, was 60 per cent. under strength ALLOCATION OF COMMONWEALTH and there were no applicants to fill the vacancies. The action being taken to have UNIVERSITY SCHOLARSHIPS TO the work performed by contract is the NORTH QUEENSLAND quickest of completing this urgent Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked work to the Honourable Member's The Minister for Education,- request The Honourable Member is to Do figures and other evidence available be commended for bringing this matter to to him disclose that Commonwealth my notice,.'' University Scholarships are being allocated 1880 Local Government Super., &c., Bill [ASSEMBLY] Supply

on a diminishing scale in proportion to SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS population and the numbers of students attending schools in North Queensland? PASSAGE OF APPROPRIATION BILL THROUGH If so, why? If not, how do the northern ALL STAGES IN ONE DAY; PRECEDENCE region's numbers and percentage compare OF GoVERNMENT BUSINESS with those of other regions of the State Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer-Acting over the last five years? Premier): I move- "(1) That so much of the Standing Answer:- Orders be suspended as would otherwise "Statistics available do not indicate that prevent the receiving of Resolutions from a decreasing proportion of North Queens­ the Committee of Ways and Means on land students are accepting Commonwealth the same day as they shall have passed in University Scholarships. For the State as that Committee and the passing of an a whole the percentage of senior candidates Appropriation Bill through all its stages in proceeding to tertiary studies on Common­ one day. wealth University Scholarships has fallen "(2) That during the remainder of this in the past five years from 13 · 1 to 10 · 9 session, unless otherwise ordered, Govern­ though the actual numbers have increased ment business do take precedence on the from 550 to 834. Of the Grade 12 students days appointed for private notices of in State high schools in the Northern motion and Orders of the Day." Region 12·7 per cent. accepted these Motion agreed to. scholarships five years ago. The most recent percentage is 12·7 compared with 10·9 for the State generally. No figures PETROLEUM ACTS AMENDMENT BILL are readily available for non-State second­ THIRD READING ary schools in the Northern Region over this five-year period." Bill, on motion of Mr. Bjelke-Petersen, read a third time. PAPERS SUPPLY The following papers were laid in the table:- RESUMPTION OF COMMITTEE-ESTIMATES­ FIFTEENTH AND SIXTEENTH ALLOTfED DAYS Proclamation under the Public Works Land Resumption Acts, 1906 to 1955 and the (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, State Development and Public Works Greenslopes, in the chair) Organisation Acts, 1938 to 1964. ESTIMATES-IN-CHIEF, 1967-68 Order in Council under the Fisheries Acts, 1957 to 1962. DEPARTMENT OF LABOUR AND TOURISM CHIEF OFFICE PARLIAMENTARY CONTRIBUTORY Debate resumed from 21 November (see SUPERANNUATION FUND ACTS p. 1853) on Mr. Herbert's motion- AMENDMENT BILL "That $893,350 be granted for 'Depart­ ment of Labour and Tourism-Chief INITIATION Office'." Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer-Acting Hon. J. D. HERBERT (Sherwood­ Premier): I move- Minister for Labour and Tourism) (11.14 "That the House will, at its present a.m.): Prior to the dinner recess, and immed­ sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of iately thereafter, on Tuesday evening, I the Whole to consider introducing a Bill replied to the points of view expressed by to amend the Parliamentary Contributory various hon. members during the day con­ SuperannuatiGn Fund Acts, 1948 to 1965 cerning the activities of the departments in certain particulars." ' under my control. I will now comment on Motion agreed to. the various matters mentioned by hon. members after that interim reply. LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPERANNUA­ The hon. member for Tablelands once TION ACT AMENDMENT BILL again has asked that a branch of the Queens­ land Government Tourist Bureau be opened INITIATION at Atherton. As was mentioned at some period during the debate on Tuesday even­ Hon. H. RICHTER (Somerset-Minister ing, it is essential for Queensland to secure for Local Government and Conservation): the maximum benefit from interstate and I move- overseas promotion, and consequently the 'That the House will, at its present resources available to the Queensland sitting, resolve itself into a Committee of Government Tourist Bureau are concentrated the Whole to consider introducing a Bill to this end. to amend the Local Government Super­ I would dearly love to open branches of annuation Act of 1964, in certain the bureau not only in Atherton but in other particulars." places, but I cannot agree that this should Motion agreed to. be done if it means a diminution in staff Supply (23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1881

and money necessary for attracting inter­ of Brisbane, and I know that every fire state and overseas tourists to Queensland. brigade board has the matter of the protec­ Surely if the hon. member is so keen on tion of its port facilities well in mind. this idea, he could arrange, as has been done in other areas, for the service which he The comments that were made about the seeks on the Atherton Tableland to be done fire brigade competitions that take place on voluntarily. This could only result in benefit the Tablelands each year are of interest, and to the people in the area that he represents. I agree with the hon. member that nothing but good can come from them. They The hon. member also mentioned that it facilitate close co-operation, which is neces-· happens from time to time that coachloads sary if mutual aid is required. of visitors leave Cairns or Kuranda with the intention of viewing the Tully Falls and The hon. member for Townsville South, Koombooloomba Dam, only to find that in my opinion, generally speaking, made a weather conditions have restricted visibility very effective and pertinent contribution to to about 50 or 100 yards. This is not an the debate, particularly in regard to the argument for the stationing of a permanent deplorable manner in which the hon. mem­ Tourist Bureau officer at Atherton. Surely ber for South Brisbane endeavoured to there is some member of the tourist industry malign senior and dedicated public servants in that region, even if the hon. member is not who are charged with the responsibility of prepared to do so, who would be happy to dealing with a most difficult problem. He answer any telephone query that might be also dwelt for some little time on the problem made from Cairns concerning the weather of demarcation disputes which take place in this region. regularly, not only in Queensland but in all other States. The hon. member for Tablelands also asked whether there could be another type I agree with the hon. member that in these of home between the standards of the days, with the machinery available for the Leslie Wilson Home and the Westbrook settlement of such disputes, a strike concern.. Training Centre. The Leslie Wilson Home ing the problem of demarcation should not is conducted by the Bush Children's Health happen overnight. Where a demarcation dis­ Scheme and accommodates children whilst pute between two unions occurs in an estab­ they are undergoing medical, dental or other lishment, there are two very speedy and attention. This home is associated with the effective remedies for its solution. As occurs Department of Health, and is different in its from time to time, where a higher rate of service to homes related to the Department pay is involved it is open to one or both of of Children's Services. the unions concerned to request this depart.. The Westbrook Training Centre is a home ment to conduct an impartial investigation of for boys involved in anti-social behaviour, the award that covers the work in dispute, and is of a different type to the Leslie Wilson which then will automatically determine the Home. I might inform the hon. member union involved. I emphasise here and now that there are intermediates in this State, that this procedure is followed from time to such as the Marsden Homes for Boys, Boys' time by some unions and the opinion of my Town, Beaudesert, and the Salvation Army department has been accepted. Homes, which provide a service for this The other alternative, of course, is for one particular type of boy. or both of the unions concerned, or the The boy to whom the hon. member employer for that matter, to approach the referred was involved in a very serious Industrial Commission and ask that the crime, and when he was being committed matter be resolved. The Industrial Com­ the judge recommended that he should be mission has adequate powers to do this. I examined by a psychiatrist. This was done, regret to inform hon. members, however, and on the advice of the psychiatrist arrange­ that some unions, in their greed to increase ments were made for the lad's admission to their membership, are not prepared to pursue a special hospital, and he has been in such procedures whereby the matter can be deter­ a hospital since then. mined by peaceful means amongst them­ selves or by an approach to the Industrial So that the lad could be near his parents, Commission. Consequently, the victim is the the Director of Psychiatry had him trans­ innocent employer. ferred to the Charters Towers Hospital. The matter of his release from the special hospital As we are all aware, such disharmony is one for the Director of Psychiatry, not invariably results in a stoppage of work or the Director of the Department of Children's a strike, and eventually the employer or the Services. militant union involved makes an application to the Industrial Commission for an inter.. The hon. member referred to fire-fighting pretation as to which union the work in the Port of Brisbane and in other ports belongs to. along the coast. These are, in fact, matters for arrangement between the respective fire It is beyond my comprehension why this brigade boards and the Department of cannot be done in the first place, either by Harbours and Marine. I know the Depart­ consultation between the respective unions as ment of Harbours and Marine and the Metro­ suggested by the hon. member for Towns­ politan Fire Brigades Board have had many ville South, or, if it cannot be resolved discussions on the arrangements for the Port thereby, by both sides agreeing to disagree !882 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

and the matter to the Industrial between the hours of 6 a.m. and 7.30 p.m. Commission a determination by this Monday to Saturday, and 8 a.m. to 7.30 independent and impartial tribunal. p.m. on Sunday. are available through I point out that provision was made in Commission and the arbitral the 1964 amending legislation whereby the this State to settle all such Industrial Commission in its role as an inde­ disputes. the untrue allegations of pendent trading-hours tribunal may fix the Leader the Opposition, all such different trading hours for different localities, disputes are dealt with promptly, at any time and any organisation, registered with the of the or night, by Industrial Commis- Industrial Commission or not, may make an sioners, there is evidence of their having application for a variation of the trading taken such action. hours in any locality. Once it is decided that the Industrial Commission shall hear this The hon. member for Ipswich East urged application, it is open to any other organ­ that a successor to the late Mr. Jim Bennett isation or individual to seek leave to be be to the Industrial Commission. heard concerning the trading hours of that I him that Mr. Bennett's successor particular locality. was appointed some time ago. Mr. Hughes: That was nine years ago. It is worth another test now. The hon. memb~r for Kurilpa suggested that the Chnstmas period and the lead Mr. HERBERT: As yet, nobody has to it could possibly be an extension asked for it. the present trading hours of non-exempt shops and retail stores, from mid- The hon. member referred to the position November until Christmas The hon. in the Brisbane City Council and said that member obviously is unaware that in 1959. there had been 1,000 applications for 70 at the of the Retailers' Association, apprenticeships. But he did not add that it the then for Labour and Industry was not pointed out to the thousands and Mr. by his diplomacy secured th~ thousands of youngsters who received all interested parties, including notice through three months' advertising by Assistants' Union, for shops to the council-which was somewhat over­ during the period from 11 to exaggerated advertising for the number of 1959, beyond the normal apprenticeships involved-that there were closing time of 4.40 p.m. Monday to only 70 jobs. Another point that the hon. Friday, until 5.40 p.m. member overlooked is that it is more than likely that a large percentage of the appli­ . It is on record that many shops found that cants would undoubtedly have applied for 1t was not to remain open for the similar positions with other employers. It whole of period, despite the fact that in is possible that a prospective tapprentice may iiOme instances it was advertised that a free have as many as eight or ten applications cup of tea would be available for late lodged with as many employers, and he is customers. Surveys made at that time awaiting his examination results before he revealed that apart from some chain stores makes a decision whether or not he will the public evinced little or no interest i~ proceed to higher education. this relaxation of trading hours and a num­ The hon. member for Rockhampton South ber of them closed their shops at the normal made, in my opinion, a very rational com­ hour after the first day. Many others did not remain open beyond the normal trading ment, which included the well-~nown precept hours for the whole period of nine days. that one should be aware of h1s facts before Since no similar request has been he ventures to criticise or make suggestions made by Retailers' Association, any other concerning any particular facet of adminis­ association of traders, or by any consumer tration. organisation, for a relaxation of the present The hon. member deplored the fact that trading hours. there was no appeal from decisions of the Industrial Commission. The present pro­ I have an open mind on this question visions that there shall be no appeal from but the fact that neither the consumers; the Industrial Commission, except if the organisations nor the retailers themselves decisions of the Commission are considered have seen fit to make any further approach to be erroneous in point of law or are would indicate that there is no demand for in excess of jurisdiction, have been in the non-exempt shops-that is, large emporiums Act since 1916. and chain stores-to remain open for a lon,ger period than the present trading hours, This matter received careful consideration wh1ch cease at 4.40 p.m. in 1960. However, after examining all facets, it was decided not to alter the However, exempt shops may sell over 100 practice whereby the decision of the Indus­ different assortments of lines, including trial Commission on an industrial matter souvenirs and may trade for 24 hours ·a day, should be final and conclusive. To have it and smaller shops, which include the "Mum otherwise would mean that finality would and. _Dad" or corner store, may trade, in never be achieved in hearings which affect add1t10n to the exempt lines, in groceries and both employers and employees. The party a range of haberdashery and hardware lines against whom the decision is given would Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1883

always give consideration immediately to representative cross-section of the various lodging an appeal, either to delay the decision categories of items was chosen. These com­ of the Commission or with a view to having prised 45 lines of groceries and foodstuffs, it overruled. Industrial chaos could then 11 lines of meat, five lines, 26 result, with possible tremendous industrial clothing, footwear and drapery and six repercussions. lines of bread. This survey was commenced The hon. member for Port Curtis made with the month of June, which month formed some reference to wages and prices. Since the basis for comparison of variations the decontrol of prices in Queensland at observed in subsequent months. the end of January last, the Government has It is of interest to record that, in respect been conscious of its responsibility in keep­ of groceries, this survey revealed that in ing a close watch on prices. July there were increases in recorded average prices of nine items, decreases in 30 items, I have here some figures concerning Bris­ and the recorded average prices remained bane from the Consumer Price Index. They unchanged concerning six items. In August have been verified by the Deputy Common­ there were recorded average price increases wealth Statistician. The Consumer Price in 20 cases, 15 cases of decreases, and 10 Index for the September Quarter of 1947 cases in which prices remained unchanged. was 54.9, and for the September Quarter In September there were recorded average of 1957 (the first quarter under the present price increases for 21 items and decreases Government) it had increased to 112.8, for 21, whilst the price of three items representing an increase of 57.9 (or 105 remained unchanged. In October there were per cent.) in the course of 10 years, when 19 price increases, 23 price decreases, and price control was in full force. The three prices that remained unchanged. Consumer Price Index in the September Quarter of 1967 was 148.0, which reveals It is also recorded that in July there were that in the 10 years under the present increases in the recorded average prices of Government the increase in the Consumer the 11 lines of meat surveyed. In August Price Index was only 35.2 (or 31 per cent.). the average price of steak increased again. In other words, equated to money values, The price of sausages increased, but there it would have required $2.05 in the Sep­ were decreases in the prices of pork chops tember Quarter of 1957 to purchase what and legs of pork. In September there was $1 would have purchased in the September a slight increase in the average price of Quarter of 1947. Compared with this, in sausages, and there were decreases in the the September Quarter of 1967 it would average prices of rump steak, chuck steak, require only $1.31 to purchase what $1 legs of lamb, lamb loin chops and pork would have purchased in the September chops. In October there were increases in Quarter of 1957. As I have stressed, the prices of chuck steak, mutton loin chops, these calculations bear the imprimatur of legs of pork and pork chops. There were the Deputy Commonwealth Statistician. decreases in the prices of beef sausages. legs of mutton and lamb loin chops. For the information of hon. members, In regard to footwear, drapery and cloth­ I table a graph which indicates the huge ing, there were no significant price increases increase in the Consumer Price Index during during the month of July. There was an the last 10 years of the previous Govern­ increase in the cost of double blankets in ment, compared with the much reduced August, and of men's hats, in September. increase under this Government. The graph There was an increase of $1 in the price of indicates quite plainly that there has been a brand of ready-made suits of comparable a levelling out. quality. Now, let us look at the matter of basic­ Another very interesting feature revealed wage increases, compared with the monetary by this survey was the fluctuation of prices equivalent of increases in the Consumer Price applying in the various stores, of which the Index since this Government has been in discerning customer could take advantage. power. Since 1 July, 1957, the basic wage For instance, the average price being charged has increased by $9.30 a week and, in for rib roast in October was 49.9c a lb. addition, there has been a general wage However, the survey revealed that the actual incr.ease of .$1 a wee~, whereas the monetary prices being charged fluctuated between 40 eqmvalent mcrease m the Consumer Price and 58c for meat Df comparable quality. Index during the period was $7.51 a week. The average price of rump steak was 77.lc This indicates that the increased cost of a lb., and prices fluctuated between 59c and living, as revealed by this index, has been 86c. This same pattern operated in regard more than counter-balanced by increases in to the various cuts Df mutton, lamb and pork., the basic wage. and also groceries. For example, the average Subsequent to the decontrol of prices at of cornflakes was 35.5c a packet, but the end of January last, arrangements were price fluctuated between 29c and 42c. made for prices inspectors to conduct monthly The average price of butter was 50.9c a surveys of the prices being charged in retail lb., and the prices fluctuated between 49 chain and small stores in Brisbane fo; and 52c. The average price of working groceries, foodstuffs, meat, clothing foot­ boots was $8.98, but prices fluctuated wear and motoring lines. These surv~ys are between $7.99 and $9.49. The average price. spread over the whole month, and a of ready-made suits was $39.77, whilst prices !884 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

fluctuated between $32 and $43. In the I come now to what was probably the case of frocks, there were even greater most disappointing part of the debate last fluctuations. Tuesday evening-the contribution from the I must stress that these surveys have hon. member for Toowoomba East. I am nothing to do with the Consumer Price Index sorry for him, more than anything else, or other information which the Deputy because he is a young member, and I suggest Commonwealth Statistician obtains and to him that next time someone prepares issues, but at the same time, they are the bullets for him, he should tell that person result of personal on-the-spot surveys of to fire them himself, or he should leave the places chosen at random by responsible Chamber. It was quite amusing for hon. prices officers. They show that shoppers members to sit here and see the hon. member should shop around before finally purchasing. for Ipswich West handing the hon. member Another interesting point is revealed by for Toowoomba East bits of paper and a a comparison between the movement of the number of documents before he rose to his Consumer Price Index of Brisbane and that feet, and, after admitting that he did not of Adelaide, where extensive price control know anything about the matter, made a has been retained from the June, 1957, contribution relative to Karrala House. quarter. This reveals that frequently Unfortunately, the position has been similar Adelaide has had a higher rise in the cost right through in the controversy on Karrala of living than has Brisbane. House. There is an article in this morning's In the September, 1967, quarter, when "Courier-Mail" in which Mr. Halliwell, the the increase in Brisbane was 59c, it is stressed acting head of the Department of Social that approximately one-third of this amount Studies at the University of Queensland, has was directly attributable to the increase in differed with what he describes as my "lock rates imposed by the Brisbane City Council. up the girls till they repent" attitude. This There were increases in the prices of miscel­ is another instance in which the person mak­ laneous items, particularly beer, and less ing the statement does not know the facts. than half the total increase was attributable I made inquiries this morning and ascertained to movements in the prices of food and that Mr. Halliwell has never been to Karrala clothing. House; in fact, he has not been anywhere A comparison of price levels of food and near it and has not the faintest idea what goes grocery items in Brisbane with those in the on there. He backs to the hilt the "kids" other capital cities, which was prepared by who make the statements. It is unfortunate the Commonwealth Bureau of Census and that he has the job of training the students Statistics, for the months from January, in social studies, because he probably tells 1967, when full decontrol of prices operated, them the same story, and it is all based on to September, 1967, reveals that Brisbane hearsay. Here is a man, who is paid a very prices compare very favourably with those high salary at the university, bursting into obtaining in the other six capital cities, print; he has not been anywhere near the including Canberra. place that he criticises. For instance, for the month of September, Further down in this newspaper article-! 1967 (the latest period for which figures are do not know why the subeditors should have available), Brisbane prices were the lowest set out the article in this way, but that is in Australia for such diversified and basic the newspaper's responsibility, not mine­ foodstuffs as bread (delivered), jam, eggs, there is a very, very important section dealing bottled fresh milk, sirloin beef, rib beef with a meeting at Ipswich Special Hospital (without bone), rump steak, chuck steak, yesterday to which all employees were invited. pork loin and pork chops. Over 100 employees were available when the It will therefore be seen that movements meeting was held, and 70 of them were in prices of basic commodities are being kept present at the meeting. That is a very big under close surveillance. The data which I meeting in an institution of that type; in have furnished fully justify the policy of fact, it is the largest at that hospital for the Government on price control, as it is years. Those present at the meeting passed evident that competitive prices are operat­ a resolution unanimously-not one person ing for basic commodities, and those prices disagreed with it. compare very favourably with those in other All hon. members heard the hon. member States. for South Brisbane tell the Committee that One aspect of the industrial matters com­ he had in his possession letters from staff ing within my portfolio-and it is one on members who did not want their names which I expected to be attacked-is the disclosed because they feared that they might unemployment position in this State. How­ be victimised. But I cannot imagine that ever, an examination of the position at the persons-if in fact they existed-who the end of October has supplied me with the wrote letters to the hon. member for South reason why the Opposition has gone quiet Brisbane would have been so frightened that on this matter. At the end of October, they would not go to a union meeting, con­ Queensland had an unemployment figure of trolled by union officials, and put their case. only 1 per cent., whereas the two Labour­ Either they would have been t]J.ere or, as I controlled States of Tasmania and South think hon. members are all fairly certain, Australia had proportions of unemployed of they exist only in the imagination of the hon. 1.2 and 1.4 per cent. respectively. member for South Brisbane. Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1885

This is the text of the resolution that getting away from it. Therefore, I challenge was passed unanimously by over 70 members the Leader of the Opposition to dissociate of the staff at the Ipswich Special Hospital- himself from the attack made by the hon. "That we the Nursing Staff at Ipswich member for South Brisbane on Tuesday Special Hospital deplore the erroneous on the staff and management of Karrala statements made by irresponsible persons House. If he does not, he is aligning in and out of Parliament and in the Press himself with the hon. member and against regarding Karrala House. the Hospital Employees' Union. "These statements show a complete lack of knowledge of the situation and a willing­ Mr. Houston: Don't you start threatening ness to deride the Administration and me! Staff at every opportunity on hearsay information. Mr. HERBERT: I am challenging the hon. member to make a statement on this, "We condemn and take exception to the statement maligning the Medical Super­ and it must either say that the hon. member intendent and Nursing Staff at this Hospital for South Brisbane is a liar or that the in today's Press."- H.E.U. is lying. that was yesterday's Press, of course­ Mr. HOUSTON: I rise to a point of "We demand a retraction of these order. I strongly object to the Minister's maligning statements, also a public apology. attitude in this matter, and particularly to "We further move a vote of confidence the use of the word "liar" associated with in Dr. Atherton and the Administration of Karrala House." a colleague of mine. I ask him to with­ draw it. There you are, Mr. Hooper. I hope nobody is going to assume that I have some sort of The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the Min­ influence over the union meetings in this ister to withdraw the word "liar". institution, or that I would have had anything to do with stacking that meeting. That would Mr. HERBERT: I withdraw the term "a be quite ridiculous, of course. It was a liar" and substitute the acceptable parlia­ spontaneous decision by the staff, and that mentary expression "untruthful". was the decision they made. The situation in which the Leader of In addition to that, the Hospital Employees' the Opposition is placed is quite obvious. Union issued a statement over the signature He knows as I know that the hon. member of its assistant secretary, Mr. Brian Ringel­ for South' Brisbane is' keen to get his name stein. This is an official statement by a into the Press in any circumstances what­ union that is affiliated with the A.L.P. It ever. He does not care whom he hurts, said that the union's feeling was that no defames or maligns, so long as it is done consideration had been given in the con­ in the safety of this Chamber. He came troversy to the well-being and opinion of in here and maligned these people and then the staff of Karrala House, that the treat­ gave the Press a statement that he was ment policy adopted by the Department of leaving to attend his wedding anniversary. Children's Services was believed to be neces­ He has been celebrating his anniversary for sary for the care, management and well-being a long time, because he was not here yester­ of the incorrigible girls at the home, and, day and he is not here today. He must consequently, must lead to their early rehab­ have read the statements by the staff at ilitation and discharge. The union had found the hospital and the H.E.U. but he still the medical superintendent (Dr. Atherton) to is not here today, probably because he be exceptionally efficient, and capable in did all this as a publicity stunt and it every aspect to have Karrala House in his charge. has rebounded on him and he does not want to pursue it. He is probably appearing The statement continues- in court, earning money as a result of "The union and its members deplore people's misfortunes. I ask him what he the uninformed, unqualified and misguided is going to do about the unfortunate people statements of some people over the last he has defamed. If there was anything month. wrong at Karrala House, the union would "These statements have continued in spite certainly say so. But its members think of the union's assurances that this informa­ differently. He has an obligation to apologise tion was false. to them. The hon. member for Bulimba, "We believe it is time the staff and a> the Leader of a responsible party, has administration of this home were allowed on obligation, too. to pursue their qualified and dedicated Mr. Houston: I will reply to you in due service, uninterrupted by publicity from insincere and misinformed people." course. That is not John Herbert speaking; that Mr. HERBERT: The hon. member for is the Hospital Employees' Union, a union Ipswich West also has an obligation to come affiliated with the A.L.P. That is what out and make a statement on this important the union's assistant secretary issued as a matter. The people in her electorate want public Press statement, so there can be no to know where she stands. They realise that 60 1886 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply she handed the hon. member for Too­ Mr. HOUSTON: I rise to a point of woomba East certain pieces of paper on order. I wish the Minister would stick to Tuesday night, and they want her-- the facts and to the truth. I read the whole of my letter. No part of it was left out. Mrs. JORDAN: I rise to a point of order. I ask the Minister to accept that assertion. I object to the minister's statement that I handed the hon. member for Toowoomba The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the East any papers or got him to say what Minister to accept the hon. gentleman's he said. I did not give him any papers; statement. he had his own papers. I happened to be Mr. HERBERT: Had he done the right sitting near him, but I had nothing to do thing he would have read my report. I with the preparation of his speech. He accept his comments. But the challenge did it entirely on his own. I resent the still remains. It is a matter for him to say implication that I incited him in what he whether or not he supports his member, had to say. the hon. member for South Brisbane. It is up to the hon. member for South Bris­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the Min­ bane to apologise, but in view of his record ister to accept the hon. member's denial. I do not expect he will do so. He will probably be too busy in the courts to even Mr. HERBERT: There is plenty of time think about this matter for weeks. left in these Estimates for the hon. member to make a statement and tell the people in The hon. member for the electorate has a her electorate, who are waiting to hear, responsibility to say something in the debate where she stands on what Mr. Colin Bennett on these Estimates. She has been sitting M.L.A., said in this matter on Tuesday about there all the time and by her very silence 70-odd constituents of hers. the people in the area must accept it as a fact that she supports the comments made Mrs. JORDAN: I rise to a point of order. by the hon. member for South Brisbane. I object to the statement that these 70-odd Mrs. JORDAN: I rise to a point of order. constituents are in my electorate; most of I tried to take part in the debate the other them are in Ipswich East. day but I could not get in. I was not allowed in. You cannot speak here just Mr. HERBERT: The people of Ipswich when you want to. will be waiting to hear what the hon. mem­ ber has to say. If she is foolish enough to Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) (11.48 say that she is not worried about these a.m.): I most certainly will not come in people because they are in the electorate on the subject of Karrala House, because of the hon. member for Ipswich East that it has been very adequately handled by my is her responsibility, not mine. ' colleagues on this side; and I have no doubt that it will be adequately handled in the I am not interested in any wishy-washy future. statement from the hon. member. She must be one way or the other. She must be either Mr. Herbert: Are you calling the mem­ with the hon. member for South Brisbane bers of the Hospital Employees' Union liars'? i~ his at~ac~ or against him. On Tuesday Mr. TUCKER: No. mght I md1cated those who were against the hon. member for South Brisbane. I The Minister has caused me to smile sar­ cited qualified opinions. What I said has castically because of his attitude on this now been supported by officials of the occasion. Today he is lauding the union, responsible union. It has been supported saying that it has passed a resolution that by a mass meeting of employees at the hos­ is in the best interests of Queensland. How­ pital. The only person "The Courier-Mail" ever, on other occasions, when 1,100 men could dig up last night was another univer­ at a union meeting have unanimously passed sity lecturer who has never been to Karrala certain resolutions against the Government, House. That has been the problem through­ the Minister and Cabinet have said that those out. Expert after expert who has never people are irresponsible, that they are rat­ ev~n. been there has been volunteering his bags, and that their views would certainly opmwn. not be taken into consideration by them. It rather surprised me to see that when it is Mr. Houston interjected. convenient for him to do so the Minister will take cognisance of a union, whereas at Mr. HERBERT: I took officials of the other times he will toss its opinions over­ Hospital Employees' Union with me on an board. inspection of Karrala House. Those men know the score. They made an inspection Mr. Herbert: Would you say that the of the home and-- members of the H.E.U. are rat-bags? Mr. Houston: They know my report to Mr. TUCKER: I would not say that at you, and your report back to me. all. I ask the Minister not to put words in my mouth. Usually the Government will Mr. HERBERT: It was tabled in the not take cognisance of anything passed House in full. The hon. member quoted only unanimously at properly constituted union some sections of it. meetings. Obviously it is convenient for the Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1887

Minister to suddenly change his attitude Government. The Government's attitude to towards union decisions so that he can the unions contrasts very poorly with its bolster up his own argument. attitude to the more favoured sections of the As to the Minister's contribution on indus­ community. Frequently industrial unions trial matters, I suggest that he would have are frustrated by the very regrettable atti­ been much more convincing had he admitted tude adopted by outside employers and also that some employers are provocative. He by the Government, which, after a long implied that provocation is found only among fight, and a long agonising wait, hands out union members. If he were truthful he a few crumbs to the unions. would readily admit that there are some Mr. Herbert: What do you think about employers who adopt a very provocative the Brisbane City Council as an employer? attitude. They are never prepared to con­ ciliate, or to adopt a conciliatory attitude to Mr TUCKER: It is a lot better than this anything put forward by employees or their Gove~nment as an employer. It is not influ­ union representatives. enced by outside people. Any decision There are many employers in this State arrived at is made in a conference room, who find the Industrial Commission a con­ where the matters are hammered out. That venient haven when it suits them. They is not so with the Government; quite often adopt an air of outraged innocence and say, somebody gets to the Government'~ ea~ and ''We are most certainly the innocent party." says "Don't do this. If you do, It will be But if we probe behind the scenes we find to ~ur disadvantage." that they are the provocative party. On many As there is such a wide variety of sub­ occasions the union has no propaganda departments under the Minister's control I channels available for putting forward in a will not be able to speak on all of the~. proper way its beliefs, ideals and ideas on Each of them plays an important part m the many matters that arise. the smooth running of this State and makes A perfect example of conciliation is to be a valuable contribution to the industrial and found in the Government's attitude when it communal life of Queensland. All depart­ confers with the State Service Union. I mental officers have been particularly co­ have no argument against that; I am all in operative and have worked hard on behalf favour of it. On many occasions the Gov­ of the people of Queensland. I pay a ernment meets the State Service Union in a tribute to them. conciliatory way and the parties reach an agreement, and then they apply to the Indus­ Neither the Committee nor the officers trial Commission to have it ratified. It is all I have mentioned will begrudge my making done in a very proper way; everyone con­ special mention of the Department of Child­ cerned approaches the problems in a proper ren's Services. From Mr. Clark down, the manner. Both sides put forward their argu­ staff is exceedingly co-operative. The district ments, and a decision is finally reached and officer in my area, Mr. Eric Kerr, is a subsequently ratified by the Industrial Com­ dedicated, approachable man who has the mission. That is excellent. It is •a pity good of the children at ~eart. I have o~ly this attitude is not adopted more frequently to mention that somethmg needs lookmg by employers. If it happened more often into and he is on the job immediately. there would be much less industrial unrest I am grateful to him for all that he does. in Queensland. After castigating the Minister earlier, I Unions are virtually forced to wrest by compliment him on Carrama~ Home. in every means available to them any advan­ Townsville. I am proud of It. It IS a tages in wages and conditions they oan wonderful building. The youngsters and obtain. For these reasons, unions are more nursing staff enjoy ideal conditions. It is and more being forced to incur greater a great improvement on the old building. expense. Some of them, in an attempt to put forward more material which may be Mr. Herbert: That is the standard that acceptable to the Industrial Commission­ has been set for all of Queensland, and perhaps material to prove that there is a we will not be happy until we attain that sound basis for better wages and conditions standard. -must now employ research officers and advocates to whom they must pay many Mr. TUCKER: I admit that it is a very thousands of dollars a year. This is being good home. done purely and simply to gain through Mr. Herbert: There are no politics in this. the Industrial Commission the wages and These kiddies are entitled to the best of conditions they are seeking for their physical surroundings, because we cannot members. give them the love that they desire. Earlier in the session I referred to redun­ dancy in the railways and the agony which Mr. TUCKER: I shall deal with that later. many union members have suffered in the The Government Medical Officer in Towns­ last two years. The Government has not vil!e, Dr. Halberstater, who visits the home, been prepared to adopt a conciliatory atti­ is a kind man with children. I know his tude, therefore the unions have been forced, attitude to the home and to the children. step by step, to press for the verv small The youngsters receive very good care from concessions they have obtained fmm the him. Supply 1888 Supply [ASSEMBLY]

The Minister said he wants the children Mr. Herbert: That already exists. Their officers and ours work together very well. to live under the best conditions. The matron, Ours refer to them cases in which there is deputy matron and other members of the entitlement to Commonwealth aid, and vice staff attempt to give them the necessary versa. care and affection, but, whether we like to admit it or not, this can be done only to Mr. TUCKER: I am very glad to hear that. I have known of cases in which people a limited extent. have said, after receiving assistance from I pay a tribute to those humanitarian the department, "If only we had received people who become foster-parents. This this help before, it would have made a great system allows youngsters to become members difference. Can it be back-dated to the of families. These foster-parents open their beginning of the year?" Of course, that homes to the children and endeavour to cannot be done. If some families had known earlier of the assistance available to them, gi~e them care and affection so that they they would have been spared the hardship Wlll grow up as good, normal citizens. endured during the year. If some means of Foster-parents make a real contribution to liaison could ensure that all in need knew the rearing of these youngsters. We should their entitlements, many families would be all be proud that there are so many foster­ helped. It would still be to the good if parents in this State. only a few were assisted, because each one is important to us. I think it can in truth Queensland has denominational homes to be said that the Minister and all his officers :Vhich these children can go, but youngsters are keen to see that no family has to exist m North Queensland who have to go to on a mere pittance, and any avenue that denominational homes must go to Central might alleviate distress should be investigated. Queensland-to Parkhurst or Neerkoll. It I now wish to refer to aspects of safety ~ould be a very good thing if a denomina­ that come within the operations of the State tiOnal home was established in Townsville Fire Services Council. I have raised this or somewhe_re else in the North, for th~ matter previously, and I now raise it again. accommodatwn of these children. I refer to the handling of liquefied petroleum . Mr•. Herbert: They are used to the climate gas. When the Gas Bill was before the House I mentioned that the Townsville gas supply m which they are living, and their relatives has been converted to liquefied petroleum gas, ar~ there. When a husband has to let a and the handling of it gives me some concern. child go ?ecause he cannot care for it, having We have been warned that it is a volatile to send It to an orphanage in the South is gas and is likely to flash if it accumulates, a tragedy. for example, in an oven. Warnings such as these have been given, and they have Mr. TUCKER: I quite agree with the worried me a good deal because I could see Minister. I pay a tribute to the many the possibility of accidents arising from the denominational homes throughout the State use of this very volatile gas. who .are making a wonderful contribution On Monday, 20 November, in the vicinity to. chlld w~lfare. I think it is only fair that of the Port of Townsville, a young man was this be smd. When a child has to leave badly burned by liquefied petroleum gas. the North to enter a home elsewhere, it is He was inside a building that suddenly ~ very great wrench for all concerned. That erupted in flames around him; he was com­ IS why I should like to see a suitable home pletely unaware that it was going to happen. established in the North so that children He ran outside-a human torch-and was there could still be visited by their relatives grabbed by someone who was able to put an~ reassured that there was someone still out the flames. It must have been a very lovmg them and worrying about them. frightening experience for him. My next point deals with families who are What happened was this: a truck was assis~ed by the Department of Children's shifting three cylinders of L.P. gas, as I Services, and I make it in no destructive way. shall re.fer to it from now on, from the port; I haye found families existing on very meagre the cylmders fell off the back of the truck, per:swns, unaware that they were eligible for the valves were wrenched from the tops of assrstance from the department. This ignor­ the cylinders in the fall, and the L.P. gas ance re~cts, for example, against families was suddenly released. It quickly flowed with children attending secondary schools. across the road from where the cylinders The department makes available books and lay and into an adjoining building There other s::hool requisit~~· which is of very was a naked gas flame in the building-! real assistance to fam1hes who are struggling think someone was making morning tea-and on pensions. Other contributions are also the whole body of gas within the building made. exploded. It was in the resulting explos,io~ and flames. that the young man was quite Quite frankly, I do not know how making people aware of their entitlements can best badly injured. be accomplished. Perhaps there could be The point I make is that the carrying of some liaison between the Department of a volatile material such as that through the Children's Services and the Commonwealth streets of Townsville creates a hazard. I Department of Social Services._ know that the State Fire Services Council Suppi, [23 NOVEMBER) Supply 1889

has been concerned about dangers of that I am not casting any reflections on the type, because on page 5 of its report, after efficiency of our fire brigades, but I do not making certain comments relative to L.P. think they would be able to deal quickly gas, it says- with a fire of such magnitude, nor would "The Council and the Boards are also they have the latest equipment or techniques co-operating in obtaining, for the infor­ to deal with it adequately. I think this mation of the Government Gas Engineer State should look at this matter. \Ve are and Chief Gas Examiner, details of growiFlg and our ports are growi:r:g, and reports of fires, explosions or accidents in we are getting very big concentratiOns of inflammables in these ports. There are many which gas is involved ..." more ports in Queensland than in the other Not only did the three cylinders fall off the States. The fire-fighting squad that I suggest back of the truck in Townsville and the gas should be set up in an area from which, flow across the road and explode inside a in a state of emergency, it can be moved building; there was a flash back along the quickly to any port, or in fact any part gas in the air, across the road to where the of Queensland, so that any serious outbreak cylinders were lying, and they were set of fire could be dealt with quickly and alight, too. That shows how quickly the adequately. I believe this is a very grave gas can be ignited. necessity. The fire which occurred in these gas cylinders in the Port of Townsville under­ Many trucks carrying cylinders of gas move lines the need for the State Fire Services through the city area in Townsville. If Council to look at this matter very seriously an incident occurred similar to the one indeed and, if it can, to come forward to which I have referred and the valves were with an answer. wrenched off, or something of that sort, a whole city block could be enveloped in I now want to deal with the tourist flames in only a few seconds; if it occurred industry, particularly as it affects North in a suburban area, almost the whole area Queensland. This is a very vital industry. could be engulfed in flames, because the From it, many millions of dollars flow into many naked flames in numerous homes North Queensland, and thus into Queensland could very quickly set alight a concentra­ generally. tion of gas. It worries me that such a pro­ cedure is allowed to be followed with (Time expired.) impunity in city and suburban areas. It seems to me that there should be a cover Mr. lVJ:H"LER (Ithaca) (12.13 p.m.): Much of some sort over the top of the cylinders of the discussion that has taken place on that would completely cover the valves; in the Estimates now before the Committee addition, I believe that the cylinders should has centred on Karrala House, and be locked into position on the back of the there have been suggestions that the Govern­ trucks. ment and staff are being unjust, that there Last Monday's incident illustrates clearly is unnecessarily harsh treatment of the how quickly L.P. gas can explode. Only inmates. Today I should like to com­ three cylinders were set alight on that occa­ pare Karrala with its counterparts in sion, and the fire-brigade chief allowed New South Wales and England. I do not them to burn out on the road; but hon. intend to speak on hearsay, but I should members can easily imagine how quickly a like to report to the Committee and read big port could be set on fire if an L.P. gas from the report of the third Australian explosion occurred. conference of administrators of social wel­ There are thousands of gallons of L.P. fare. The Director of the Department of gas in the Port of Townsville. I know Children's Services in New South Wales, that one container has 3,000 gallons of the Mr. Thomas, spoke on the training pro­ gas, and the fire that I referred to happened grammes for delinquent children in New right in the port storage area. In the South Wales, and I shall quote one or two Port of Townsvi!Ie and other ports along paragraphs from his paper, it reads- the Queensland coast there are great con­ centrations of gas, bituminous substances "With regard to girls, a new establish­ and petroleum products, and to my way ment was being built. This consisted of of thinking these could go up in a flash. completely separate cottages, each with I have instanced a perfect example of how its own services. This did away with they can catch fire. I have frequently the old type of institutional cooking, and said-and I do so again today-that I do the kitchen would be used as part of the not believe that if this happened our local training." fire brigade would be able to cope with Mr. Thackeray: Who wrote this speech such a holocaust. I again ask, therefore, for you-the Minister? for the setting up in Queensland of a special fire-fighting squad designed to deal Mr. MILLER: I am reading from a paper with fires in gas concentrations and petroleum presented to the third Australian Conference concentrations, or in port areas, where we of administrators of social welfare, by the could have a tremendous fire with very little Director of the Department of Children's warning. Services, New South Wales. 1890 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

To continue, he said- What is there in England? The British "There would be 24 girls to each cottage. are well known for their respect for the right Outside fences were of the usual man­ of the individual, from the policeman on proof type, both to keep girls in and to street duty right up to the highest position keep out male intruders, which are a in the land. problem in a girls' institution. I have here a photograph with the caption "From the main entrance a view could " 'Secure' Borstal for Persistent Girl Offend­ be obtained of tennis courts, swimming ers". I should like all members of the pool, and playing fields. He stated that Opposition to have a look at it. We see in his Department hoped to dispose of the this photograph a brick wall-not the man­ Parramatta Girls' Home." proof type of fence at Karrala House. It is not a wire fence; it is a gaol-type wall. On top That paragraph deals with the New South of the brick wall we see barbed wire-rolls Wales counterpart of what we have in of it-and we also see individual cells. At Queensland in the three denominational the bottom of the picture we see cells homes, Kalimna Vacational Centre for that would do justice to the Brisbane gaol. Girls, Toowong, Mt. Maria Re-educa­ Centre for Girls, Mitchelton, and Holy That is the type of institution that Britain Cross, Wooloowin. Those three homes in considers to be necessary for this class of Queensland are far ahead of anything in girl. Yet we hear some social workers and New South Wales. members of the Opposition saying what a terrible thing the institution in Queensland What in New South Wales is the counter­ is doing to these girls. What happens to part of Karrala? I quote again- them when they leave the court? It has "There was a new Institution at Hay, been suggested that the girls go straight which was a converted gaol, being used from the court to Karrala. That is wrong. to house 'tough' girls, necessitating •a high They go from the court to one of three staff ratio. The problem of Hay was to denominational homes. What sort of treat­ avoid breaking the girls' spirits, so admis­ ment do they receive there? sions were based on psychiatric interviews and follow-ups. The numbers have never Mr. Smith: Surely some girls go straight been more than 1 L It is situated 500 to Karrala. miles from Sydney, and the conversion MR. MILLER: The only time a girl was a 'rush' job, the girls themselves being goes to Karrala is when she breaks her bond. used to complete interior decorations, and the results were quite good. The basis I went to the trouble of visiting the institu­ for selection for admission to Hay was tional homes after a social worker complained failure to respond to training in another to me about Karrala House. I believe that all establishment." hon. members who have student social workers living in their electorates were con­ I say that admission to Karrala is exactly tacted by these students. When I looked over the same as admission to Hay. Karrala House I was not happy with it. But Mr. Newton: Do you believe in that type what did I do? I went to the institutional of rehabilitation? homes to find out why the girls were sent to Karrala, and who sends them there. I saw Mr. MILLER: Let me make my own Matron Geddes, of Kalimna, Mother Philo­ speech. The hon. member can make his own mena, of Mt. Maria, and Mother Liam, of later. the Holy Cross Home at Wooloowin. These Continuing- three ladies know about Karrala. I asked them if it was necessary and they told me "Obedience was the keynote to training in no uncertain terms that their institutional at Hay, and strict discipline was enforced. homes would have to close if Karrala did not This necessitated an 'unbending' period exist. They are three of the kindest women I " have ever met. When speaking of the two I should like this committee to know that ladies at Mt. Maria and Holy Cross, I should there is no "unbending" period at Karrala also like to mention Sister Cecilia. There House. has been much talk about the staff in these What sort of treatment do they get in New homes not being trained. Sister Cecilia, South Wales? It has been suggested in this Mother Philomena and Mother Liam have all been overseas for their order. They are Chamber that we are out of step with other trained in this work. They have been to States and other countries. I think we are France and the U.S.A. They do not say, out of step all right, but to the benefit of the "We will do so and so." This is a world­ girls in Queensland. wide order and they periodically go overseas Continuing- to find out what is best for the girls. Does Matron Geddes of Kalimna simply sit back " A maximum stay of about three and say, "I will do this; I will do that."? She months was usual. This was not intended does not; she went to England to see what as a 'short sharp sentence', in the sense was being done overseas. If the ideas were advocated often in the Press." good she implemented them at Kalimna. That is the type of institution in New South These ladies have .nothing but love for the Wales, the counter-part of Karrala. girls placed in their charge. Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1891

It has been suggested that we cannot say This education helps the girls to over­ whether a psychiatrist is good or bad, but I come their social problems. They also attend think every hon. member in this Chamber classes in typing, mothercraft, home sc.ience, can tell whether a person is a fraud-whether needlework, music and ballet. This month there is a bad streak in him or whether he Mt. Maria is staging, with these "bad" girls, is filled with kindness. I have met these the musical comedy "Brigadoon". Last year people and I know that there is nothing but they produced "The Girl Friend" and, the year before that, "Salad Days". These are the kindness in their hearts for these girls. homes from which the girls at Karrala are It has been claimed that no education is coming. When these girls go there they provided for the girls. I should like to tell are bad. People should have a look at these hon. members of the educational programme girls when they are admitted. Every girl at Mt. Maria. admitted to these homes is bad. But how many go to Karrala? It has been claimed Mr. Hanlon: No-one has attacked that these girls receive no treatment and Mt. Maria. that they are not given psychiatric treatment. Mr. MILLER: I am pointing out what Mr. Davies: What place are you talking happens to these girls before they go to about now? Karrala. Mr. MILLER: I am talking about girls Mr. Hanlon: The only person to cast any at institutional homes. reflection in this direction was the Minister Mr. Newton: Get onto Karrala House. who said that the girls were just out of th~ convent. Mr. MILLER: I am getting onto Karrala House. Mr. MILLER: They are not convents. It has been claimed in the Press that the It has been claimed in the newspapers girls in these institutional homes do not that these girls are not being cared for. receive psychiatric treatment. That is not correct. Dr. Phillips and his staff treat the An Opposition Member: That is at Kar­ girls in the same way they treat the boys. rala House. Fortunately for the boys, they are sent to Mr. MILLER: That is not so. Karrala the Wilson Youth Hospital and are treated House was not mentioned in the first place. there, whereas the girls are treated in the A definite programme has been embarked institutional homes. upon to give people the wrong impression on Mr. R. Jones: You said they were bad how treatment is meted out to these girls. girls. Are they bad girls at 13? Mrs. Jordan: I have not made any criticism Mr. MILLER: I said these girls were bad at all of the denominational institutions. when they went into the institutional homes. But the love and kindness shown to them Mr. MILLER: I did not say the hon. there win most of them over. The treat­ member did. I referred to the newspapers. ment they receive in these homes makes it I did not mention any hon. member's name. possible for them to go back into the com­ What sort of teaching is given at these munity as decent peoole. A few girls do homes? I will take Mt. Maria first. not respond to this treatment and have to be sent to Karrala. It has been claimed that they Mr. Davies: Nobody is criticising Mt. receive no psychiatric treatment, but they do. M aria. When I visited these homes I took with Mr. Melloy: You are just a mixed-up boy. me the social worker who had made the complaints to me, not only so that she could Mr. MILLER: I know who is mixed up; see for herself what these homes are doing it is the Opposition. but also so that I would know that what Mrs. Jordan interjected. they are doing is the correct thing. The social worker told me that there were no Mr. MILLER: Why didn't you go and psychiatrists to attend to these girls and look? that they received no group family therapy, with the result that they had to go to The CHAIRMAN: Order! Will the hon. Karrala. When we left Mt. Maria she said, member please address his remarks to the "I am sorry to have bothered you. What Chair. I am asking for is already being done." Mr. MILLER: The girls at Mt. Maria are But how many of these social workers have taught to Junior standard by teachers and visited the homes to see what is being done? to Senior standard by correspondence. They They have the opportunity to visit them. are taught, by all types of training, to rise I claim that this is an organised plan by above their previous social level. I do not the social workers of this State to be think there is another home in Brisbane to recognised. compare with Mt. Maria. Kalimna has a Mr. Davies: Which social workers? correspondence course. Holy Cross Home has teachers, but I do not think that they are Mr. MILLER: The student social workers on a par with those at Mt. Maria. in the State. 1892 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

I make it quite clear that these institutional Mrs. Jordan: I am talking about the con­ homes are not privilege-and-punishment duct of Karrala House. centres, as has been claimed. However those girls who will not accept the opportunities Mr. MILLER: What would the hon. mem­ Dffered in these homes go to Karrala. I ber do with them? say to the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Mrs. Jordan: I put my suggestions in member for Ipswich West and many other writing to the Minister. He knows. members of the Opposition: what would they do with the girls who are receiving Mr. MILLER: At the denominational treatment t~at the social workers claim they homes I was allowed to talk to the girls should rece1ve but are not responding to it? who had been at Karrala House, and I was Mr. Herbert: They used to throw them told of the treatment they had received. into Goodna. Mr. Davies: They might have been Mr. MILLER: That is right. I want to frightened of you. know what they would do now. I pay a tribute to the superintendent, Dr. Atherton. Mr. MILLER: Frightened of me? Why? Mr. Melloy: Have you met him? Mr. Davies: I think they would have been. Mr. MILLER: Yes, I have, and I have seen the work he is doing. I also pay a Mr. MILLER: I asked one girl if she had tribute to the senior nurse in charge, Sister any complaints, and the Mother told her Kraut, and other members of the staff. not to be afraid to speak up. Do hon. mem­ Sister Kraut receives at least one letter from bers know what her complaint was? She most of the girls when they have left said it was about the food. I said, "What was Karrala House. It seems strange to me that wrong with it?" She said, "The pumpkin had the sister-in-charge should receive letters peel on it." That was her complaint about from girls whom she has allegedly ill­ Karrala House! I must be uncivilised, treated. If I had been ill-treated anywhere because my pumpkin, too, has the peel on I do not think that, after I left, I would it, as it is considered more nutritious in that have the decency to write to the one who state. had ill-treated me, nor do I think any other At Mt. Maria I saw a girl running down hon. member would, either. the hall with a basket-ball under her arm. Mrs. Jordan: They would need to have She was going out on Friday afternoon for some successes. competition basket-ball. Sister Mary Cecilia said, "See that girl? I'll introduce you to Mr. MILLER: In a letter written by him, her. She has only come back from Karrala the Leader of the Opposition said- in the last few months." There was a girl '·It is our view that a little kindness who had just returned from a home that is would not be out of place, even for girls supposed to break the spirit. with the worst possible record of social Mr. Davies: You said they were all bad behaviour." and beyond rehabilitation. I say that kindness is being shown to Mr. MILLER: I did not. That is what them at Karrala House. I should like to the hon. member said. I said they were bad meet the person who says that Sister Kraut when they first arrived. How does one cor­ does not show kindness to the girls. I relate that girl, with the basket-ball under went there and met members of the staff. her arm and a happy smile on her face They were not stood over to force them to going off to play basket-ball, with the stor.ie~ talk to me in the way that Dr. Atherton one hears about Karrala House? might want them to. I should like to thank the denominational Mr. Newton: You said earlier that they homes for the part they are playing in were beyond rehabilitation. Now you are Queensland in the rehabilitation of this type giving an example of how they are being of girl. It will be seen from the report rehabilitated and returned to the homes. that subsidies amounting to $313 771 are being paid to these homes. That rn'eans that Mr. MILLER: The rehabilitation has taken they themselves have already spent the same place in Karrala House. The girl to whom amount. I referred returned from Karrala House to Mount Maria. It is claimed that Karrala Mr. :'\ewton: Nobody on either side of House breaks their spirit; I say that the the Chamber has ever "knocked" those example I have given proves beyond any homes. doubt that the spirit of that girl was not broken. Mr. :\HLLER: The point that I make is that the girls go to Karrala House from I spoke to another two girls in the laundry denominational homes. Why do they have to go there? Can hon. members opposite Mr. Davies: Were those two who came suggest any other treatment that the girls back? should receive? If they can, psychiatrists cannot. The girls are seen by psychiatrists Mr. MILLER: Again, they were two who before they go to Karrala House. came back from Karrala House. Supply [23 NovEMBER) Supply 1893

Mr. Davies: You said they were all so the Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board and, bad that they could not be rehabilitated. This as a result, I know his calibre as an admini­ is the weakest attempt I have ever heard to strator and his complete understanding of defend a place. human nature. I remember, too, when Mr. Mr. MILLER: Is that so? Clark was a senior officer in the Department of Health and Home Affairs, as it was known The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. in those days, working under the Minister Smith): Order! for Health. He would have a very close and complete working knowledge of the problems Mr. MILLER: Before resuming my seat, l should like to refer briefly to apprentices. existing at Karrala House, about which there has been a good deal of controversy in the Mr. Melloy: You are going to give Kar­ last 48 hours. rala away? I thank members of the staff of the Depart­ Mr. MILLER: I think I have answered ment of Children's Services for the assistance that charge. I will answer any question that they have given me during the last 12 months. the hon. member asks me. On every occasion on which I have gone to the Director or any member of his staff, I Mr. Thackeray: I will ask you one. have received full co-operation and sound Mr. MILLER: The hon. member would advice. I thank them very much for that. not have the intelligence to ask me a ques­ However, one subject that has worried me for a long time and which I have raised in this tion. Chamber by way of questions from time to All hon. members know that Queensland time, is the increasing cruelty to children in has the best apprenticeship system in Aus­ the community. There is an increasing pre­ tralia. valence of cruelty to children in the com­ Mr. MeHoy: That is debatable. munity not only in my electorate, but throughout the State. I am told it is a world Mr. Davies: It hasn't now; it used to have. trend, but we are concerned only with trends in our own State and country. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr Smith): Order! I have been concerned about this matter for a long time, and I tell the Minister Mr. MILLER: The Committee will see frankly that in my opinion the enforcement whether or not it is debatable when I give of the law in this respect is very weak the figures. indeed. I get very annoyed and upset at How time is spent at the technical college times-I may be wrong; if I am, I can is a matter of concern, and I should like the be corrected-at what I consider to be the Minister, through his departmental officers, to Minister's weakness in the enforcement of do everything possible to modernise the the law covering cruelty to children. training that apprentices receive there. It is well known that they now spend eight hours Mr. Herbert: In what way? Have you a day there, and I think it is a pity that the ever brought a case of cruelty to my notice? time of painting apprentices, for example. should be spent in learning graining and Mr. DEAN: I have brought many cases marbling, both of which were outdated 20 to the notice of departmental officers. I years ago. Instead, I suggest that they should am not blaming the officers, because they undertake a course in paint technology. Such have to answer to the Government. I say a course would be far better for apprentices, the Minister is very weak, and he is not and master painters would feel that their time the only Minister I consider to be so. I was being put to good use. could speak similarly on other Estimates coming on this afternoon. (Time expired.) Mr. Herbert: Give me facts rather than Mr. DEAN (Sandgate) (12.38 p.m.): I excuses; you accused me of not implement­ welcome the opportunity of speaking on these ing the law. Now justify it! very important Estimates. As all hon. mem­ bers realise, the Minister's portfolio covers Mr. DEAN: I will give the Minister the such a wide range of departments that it is facts, but I have only 25 minutes to do it. The impossible to make a detailed analysis of the first matter I instance is the way some parents various reports in 25 minutes. Therefore, are allowed to escape their responsibilities. each hon. member speaks of the work of the All the excuses in the world are made in department to which he attaches most import­ this respect. I have a cutting from a ance. prominent newspaper-"Sunday Truth"-of a I wish to refer to the Department of Chil­ few weeks ago. I do not know whether dren's Services. At the outset, I pay a very the Minister likes "Sunday Truth", but to high compliment to the Director, Mr. me it is a newspaper on the same level as C. A. P. Clark, and his staff of well-trained others and what it contains should be and very sympathetic officers, many of whom factual. are known to me personally, and have been for a number of years. I had an opportunity Mr. Herbert: Do you believe everything of serving with Mr. Clark for some years on you read in the newspapers? 1894 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. DEAN: I try to. I hope my faith the community. They need quicker and is never destroyed to the extent that I do more generous assistance than they are not. Once we reach that stage we might getting. The Commonwealth Government as well not buy newspapers. I ask the is not greatly concerned about them; it could Minister to take a closer look into the matter not concern itself very much less about of cruelty to children in the community. them than it does now. These unfortunate women have to wait six months before they Mr. Herbert: You bring me one case can receive financial assistance from the of it. Commonwealth Government. Wt must show Mr. DEAN: The Minister should look at a little more responsibility towards deserted the number of malcontent parents who escape wives in the community by giving them from the hook through technicalities in the more immediate help than they are getting. law. People whose actions cannot be con­ But for service organisations such as Rotary, sidered as moral-- Lions and Apex, which come readily to their assistance, many of them would be in dire Mr. Herbert: I am not the custodian of straits while waiting for Government assist­ people's morals. ance. Although this is primarily a Common­ wealth responsibility, State legislation could Mr. DEAN: The Minister should take a be enacted to assist deserted wives. keen interest in and be concerned about public morality. If he is not, I am sorry I pay a high compliment to the staff of for him. the Maternal Welfare Home at Sandgate. The present matron was appointed following Mr. Herbert: I did not say I was not the death of the previous matron. Some concerned; I said I was not the custodian. wonderful work is performed at that home for the benefit of the children. Unfortun­ Mr. DEAN: I am not going to be dis­ ately, many parents put their children into tracted any further from the trend of my homes of that type so that they can have speech. more freedom for social enjoyment, and the On the subject I have opened, I feel that ,taxpayer has to foot the bill. On the other the law should be carried out stringently. hand, there are some very distressing cases. So far as I am concerned, there is only While they are in hospital some mothers one penalty for a parent who illtreats a may have no option but to place their little child. He should be deprived of his children in such a home. freedom and gaoled; he should be deprived The foster-home scheme is an excellent of the privileges of society and gaoled. one. I pay a compliment to foster-parents Mr. Herbert: Without a trial? who take children into their homes, thus providing them with a home environment. Mr. DEAN: Perhaps that is the Minister's There is no substitute for the influence of a idea of meting out justice; it is not mine. good home. I believe in court procedure. I turn now to the tourist industry. I Mr. Herbert: Then let the judge decide. hope that in the not too distant future tour­ ism will have a portfolio of its own, so that Mr. DEAN: The courts do not get the one Minister will be responsible solely for chance. Too many strings are pulled to tourist activities in this State. With one keep these people from the courts. Minister having tourism 'as his sole respon­ Mr. Herbert: That is an insult to officers sibility this industry could be developed, of the department. not only from the revenue point of view, but so that more people could enjoy the Mr. DEAN: I am not trying to blame the tourist attractions of this wonderful State of officers. ours. I should now like to specifically mention Tourist facilities on this State's railway two institutions for which I have a tre­ system are atrocious. As I move up and mendous admiration. One is St. Vincent's down the coast I use the railways, so I Orphanage at Nudgee, in the electorate of know what tourists have to put up with. It my colleague Mr. Melloy, but I have main­ would not cost a great deal to give tourists tained close contact with it and friendship a better deal by providing the necessary for the Rev. Mother and Father Casey, to amenities on the rail services between here whom I pay tribute for their wonderful and North Queensland. We need to provide work at the home. the tourist with additional amenities so that The Tufnell Home at Nudgee is another when he leaves Queensland he will want to institution for which I have a high regard. return. The Rev. Mother there is a woman similar The Warana Festival is a tourist attrac­ to others we have heard about in this debate, tion that I think the Government has treated with a kind heart and a dedicated devotion in a very niggardly way by not being pre­ for children. pared to spend more money on it. I regard In the time available it is possible to deal money so spent as an investment. If more only very briefly with the various reports, money was spent on the festival it would but I should like the Minister to give a little bring about a quicker development of this more consideration to the deserted wives in attraction. It is developing, but very slowly. Supply (23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1895

Mr. Herbert: Do you know that they you can be brought to the Bar, but I do made a profit this year? not know that you can make a request to appear at the Bar." On inquiry I was Mr. DEAN: More profit would have been told that he certainly could not make such made if the Minister had gone about it in a a request. That is most unfair. Any citi~en businesslike manner. I assure the Minister who considers he is being treated unfairly that if some of his colleagues were allowed should be able to seek redress by appearing to use their business acumen, this festival at the Bar of the House. I was told there was would move at a much faster rate. no provision in the Standing Orders for such a procedure. I cannot understand why there Mr. Herbert interjected. is not such a provision. It could produce Mr. DEAN: I suggest to the Minister that the desired result. he get going. He should talk to some of I have digressed from the report of the his officers and encourage them to do a Chief Inspector of Factories and Shops. The little more. He should encourage them to Chief Safety Engineer, whose activities are provide a little extra finance; it is useless covered by the report, has a very important simply to talk to them. part to play in industry. I was rather Mr. Herbert: We give a fairly big subsidy. impressed to read in 'The Courier-Mail" It is the Brisbane City Council that is nig­ this morning comments made by Dr. Shep­ gardly; it even charged for the use of the pard concerning precautions that should be barricades for the procession. taken in industry to avoid injuries, par­ ticularly eye injuries. The comments in Mr. DEAN: I am suggesting to the Minister the newspaper article concerning eye injuries what he should do. are so apt that they should be put on record. I can think of nothing more important to Mr. Herbert: I am telling you the truth. a man than his eyesight. You just do not know. I commend this article to all hon. members. Mr. DEAN: This is the Minister's job; The latter portion of it reads- he should take care of this festival. "Labour and Tourism Minister (Mr. I am not criticising the staff or the director, Herbert) said in opening the seminar that Mr. Campbell, who is in charge of the industrial accidents cost the State $50 festival. In the circumstances he is doing million a year. a very good job, but he is on a pinch-penny "Eye injuries formed a significant pro­ budget. That is my opinion, and I adhere portion of lost-time injuries in Queens­ to it. land, he said. I will now deal with the report of the "The Australian workers' compensa­ Chief Inspector of Factories and Shops sub­ tion payout came to an annual $500 mitted to the Minister for presentation to million." Parliament by Mr. T. P. Egan. Over the That is correct. I feel that that is a fitting years, I have been in close contact with allocation for that purpose. Mr. Egan. Some years ago--during the war The other day I read that everyone, par­ years and at the end of the war-he and I were ticularly those working in factories, should very closely associated. He was the head of obtain a Q.A.T.B. certificate in first aid. I the department and I was one of his junior thoroughly agree with that suggestion. The clerks.- I have followed his progress through six weeks that it takes to do such a course the years. He is a man of ability, with is time well spent. Like many other hon. administrative capacity, and he handles his members, I am connected with the Parent staff particularly well. I pay a special com­ Centre of the Q.A.T.B. We always like to pliment to him and his staff. On these see an increase in the number of people occasions we should express our appreciation coming forward each quarter to attend these of the good work done by public servants. classes, because it shows that a greater As a former public servant, I must say that inte!'est is being taken in first aid. It is public opinion of them is often very unfair essential for all workers, particularly those and unjust. employed in factories where machinery is Mr. Herbert: It is prompted by men who used, to have a knowledge of first aid. I make charges in Parliament that they cannot do not think it is asking too much of back up. employees to devote a little time to this matter. If an employer has the welfare of Mr. DEAN: I am speaking of public his staff at heart, surely he would not hesi­ opinion. I am not making a close examina­ tate to allow them time to receive first-aid tion of it to interpret it. I am saying what instruction. I think-namely, that public servants are frequently criticised unjustly. I have been leading up to the Factories and Shops Health, Welfare and Safety Some years ago I referred to a certain Board. I compliment the members of that commissioner's report which contained a board for the good work they are doing. reference to an accountant in this city who Many men, such as those employed in was very upset by the comments. He asked the refrigeration industry, are sent out on me, "What redress have I? Can I ask to jobs on their own, and, sometimes without appear at the Bar of the House?" I said, :varning, they find themselves in difficulty, "I don't know. I will find out. I know m some cases resultmg in personal injury to 1896 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

themselves or to others. In such cases many the Committee that it is impossible to see people tend to panic, but those who have many types of flora and fauna to the best been trained know not to panic but to take advantage in restricted areas. For example, all necessary steps in an emergency. I should say that it would be impossible to For that reason, employees should attend find kangaroos that are more "wormy" than these classes. Many do of their own volition, the ones seen by tourists on the Gold Coast. and many more would if given encourage­ Hon. members should not be parochial in ment by thejr employers. This would be a speaking on tourism. Each part of the State valuable investment not only for the has some natural attraction to offer, some­ employees but also for the employers. In thing that is interesting in its own right. the event of an accident, they could work The Warwick district has many unique attrac­ as a team. tions of which it is proud. But it is [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.] impossible for tourists to see the State's industries, scenic spots, and so on, if they Mr. CORY (Warwick) (2.15 p.m.): At the remain in a restricted tourist area around outset, I should like to thank the hon. the coast, and I was very pleased to member for Mackenzie for his good grace in hear Mr. Wilson say only two days giving me the opportunity to make a few ago that bus tours would be extended to comments this afternoon. many new areas. This will not only mean I congratulate the Minister on the presenta­ that more people will visit these areas; it tion of his Estimates, and I also wish to will also be a reward for the work of the give my thanks and congratulations to Mr. officers of the Tourist Bureau and of the Muhl, Mr. Wilson and the many officers recently formed Tourist Association in who have assisted me during the last few Warwick. years. The Minister's Estimates cover many I again stress that the tourist trade must activities, including the assistance of young not be regarded as being confined to the people who, for various reasons, have the Gold Coast, the North Coast, and the Great misfortune to find themselves in trouble, and Barrier Reef. At no time should different also the administration of the apprenticeship conditions apply in different areas of the scheme. State. Some people say, "This should be Because so much has already been said declared a tourist area. We should be given about the apprenticeship system, I shall some tourist concessions." In my opinion, not elaborate on it beyond saying that in it is completely wrong to differentiate between country areas not only is suitable employment areas when concessions relative to night-club not always available in many trades but appren­ activities or liquor laws are being considered. ticeship courses are not ideally conducted. People in some areas should not enjoy con­ During the last few years there has been ditions that are not available to people living considerable delay at the beginning of each in other areas. If it is good enough to year in forwarding the necessary papers to apply those conditions in one area, it is many apprentices. I know that a lot has good enough to apply them in all areas; if been done in the apprenticeship field by the it is morally right to apply those conditions Minister's department and the Department of to the Gold Coast, it is morally right to Education, but the position still leaves much apply them to Cunnamulla or anywhere else. to be desired. The necessary material should be available to those pursuing apprentice­ Queensland has been described as a tourist ships right from the beginning of each year. State, and I agree with that description. On a number of occasions the year has been But if it is to live up to its reputation, well advanced before papers have been conditions must be created in which tourists received. Although I appreciate what has will be attracted to all parts of the State, not been done, the situation has to be watched merely to certain restricted areas. closely. It is vitally important that the I think it was the hon. member for necessary literature be available at the Chatsworth who mentioned in this debate beginning of the year. that he thought a poll tax should be imposed I now wish to make a few comments on on tourists to assist local authorities in tourist tourism. The hon. member for South Coast areas to raise finance. Admittedly, those said that a lot has been learnt by experience local authorities may expend large sums of in the tourist industry, the biggest lesson money to cater for tourists, but I completely probably being that tourists should be disagree with the hon. member's attitude offered something that is typically Australian to the problem. Tourists should be encour­ rather than an imitation of something in aged to come to the State; they should America or other places. I agree with that not be given the feeling that they are being wholeheartedly. If we are to show "bitten". tourists what we have in Australia, it is I do not think additional revenue should necessary to get away from the Gold Coast. be obtained by levying a poll tax or some We want people to see Australia and we will other tax of that type. Money should be give them every encouragement to do so, but made available to local authorities from both if they want to see this country they will State and Federal consolidated revenue. As have to move freely through a larger area I said in this Chamber a few weeks ago, of it. Places are inclined to become over­ taxes are high enough now; we do not want commercialised as a result of the concen­ any more. Correct distribution of the money tration of tourist activities, and I remind obtained in taxes is what is needed. Supply [23 NOVEMBER) Supply 1897

The only tax we can ever hope to cope Mr. MELLOY: If the Minister and other with is the one on our earning capacity. As Ministers are to be guided, as apparently that progressively increases, so do our taxes. the Minister is, by resolutions passed by Our earnings and profits are the yardstick unions, it might be a very good thing. But of our ability to afford taxation, not the they cannot have it all one way. The Minister cannot eulogise resolutions carried by unions fact of having capital investment or the fact on some occasions and then deny the same of actually living in an area. It is what is recognition to resolutions which are in the earned in an area that counts, and that is interests of the nation carried unanimously what attracts taxation. by trade union congresses. This, of course, brings us back to our I now wish to say a few words on our State and Federal relationships, and distribu­ tourist services, which are administered by tion in the form of reimbursement equivalent the Minister. First of all, I compliment to taxes collected in the various areas. When the staff of the Queensland Government one has a large number of tourists, without Tourist Bureau. They do an excellent job, question there is a large earning capacity but more staff are needed. If the tourist in local industries and commercial enter­ industry is the $40,000,000 a year industry prises, which go hand in hand with the that the Minister would have us accept­ tourist trade. They are paying taxes, and it I am not doubting his figure-the bureau would be very hard to deny that the extra must have the necessary facilities and taxes paid by such people because of their adequate staff. It is not enough to have a increased turnover and profit should be good staff only; there must also be an reimbursed to the areas from which they adequate staff. were collected. During the past year I have had occasion In conclusion, the one point I make, if to make use of the facilities of the Queens­ I make no other this afternoon, is this: let land Government Tourist Bureau in arrana­ us never consider declaring tourist areas and ing a trip north. The service provided by giving them something which other parts the staff is excellent and is a credit to the of the State do not get. I say quite openly Director, Mr. Wilso~. All members of the that every area in this State has something staff deserve the commendation of every to offer the tourist and is willing to display hon. member. However, in order that it to the best advantage. If certain conces­ the job can be done properly, there sions which have been mentioned are con­ must be sufficient staff to cope with sidered to be in the best interests of tourists the pr~sent influx of tourists a~d, at the and those who live in tourist areas, people same time, to attract more tounsts to the in the inland areas are equally deserving of State. I accept the fact that more is being those privileges. done in the way of publicity, but we need even greater publicity. The tourist industry Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) (2.27 p.m.): After offers a challenge that cannot be ignored in listening to the Minister and the hon. member the future. We have tremendous tourist for Ithaca in particular, I cannot help but attractions in this State, and to get the tour­ wonder why the Government persists in put­ ists here we must go after them. That can ting up boys to do a man's job. This has be done only with an adequate Tourist been particularly evident in this debate. The Bureau staff. Minister's contribution, I think, has been On previous occasions I have criticised the little more than juvenile emotionalism, and set-up of the Queensland Government Tour­ the hon. member for lthaca, has just shown ist Bureau in Adelaide Street. Tourist buses how immature he is. If the Government in that area create a traffic hazard. That part wants to make an impression on the Com­ of Adelaide Street is not the place for the mittee on matters of importance, it should .starting point of tours in tourist buses. provide members who can speak with some The Minister said he proposes to improve substance and authority, and a realisation the facilities in Adelaide Street. Even if the of the true position. bureau took over the whole of the ground The Minister has set a rather refreshing floor of the building, there would still be precedent for the Government, and I think the problem of the buses in Adelaide that perhaps we can now look forward to Street. statements of policy by him, and perhaps I get back to my previous suggestion for his colleagues, that are based on union resolu­ a tourist-terminal project in the area of the tions. The Opposition could be of great Roma Street station. That would be an assistance to the Minister and his colleagues excellent site for a terminal for tourist trans­ in this regard. If he is going to base the port. At the present time the railway goods policy of the Government on resolutions yards pose a traffic hazard. They should be carried by various unions, we can provide removed from the inner-city area. An alter­ many instances of very constructive resolu­ native site for the goods yards would be at tions carried unanimously by individual Mayne, in the area presently occupied by the unions. marshalling yards. Incidentally, the mar­ shalling yards at Mayne are a main source of The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. smog. From Albion Heights, on most morn­ Smith): Order! I hope the hon. member will ings one can see a complete smog cover over relate his remarks to labour and tourism. that area. The Government has made pro- 1898 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

VIsiOn for marshalling yards at Zillmere, so That made me wonder if there is a possi­ the way is clear for the establishment of a bility that pep pills are being used by pas­ tourist project or assembly point-call it senger-coach drivers. If so, it is extremely what you like-at Roma Street. In that area dangerous and alarming. We know that both railway and bus facilities could be pro­ drivers of interstate transports use pep pills vided and the interstate tourist offices could to keep them awake, but they are jeopardis­ be established there. A whole complex ing only their own lives. The use of pep could be set up as an excellent tourist centre. pills by drivers of passenger coaches is much It could be the jumping-off place for every more serious, because many lives are part of Queensland. I suggest, therefore, involved. The Minister might check to see that the Minister reconsider the spending of if this is taking place. I was amazed and money on facilities in the Adelaide Street alarmed that, after 10 o'clock at night, this building. I realise that what he proposes driver was continuously at the wheel for would be 'an improvement on the present six hours. set-up, but the bottle-neck would remain. Mr. Herbert: That would be contrary to Mr. Herbert: It is not necessary to have the company's regulations. the bus termini right next door to the office. Mr. MELLOY: It would be. Perhaps Mr. MELLOY: It is not necessary, but it it may be said that I am "dabbing the driver is desirable. That is where all the bookings in", which I should not like to do. are made; rail bookings and tourist bookings The Great Barrier Reef is one of our main are made in Adelaide Street. Every day a tourist attractions, but it faces an alarming line-up of two or three buses can be seen, prospect with the present move to permit with people standing on the footpaths oil exploration in reef waters. I suggest because there is nowhere else for them to that the Minister for Labour and Tourism wait. The buses are a traffic hazard in have a chat with the Minister for Mines and Adelaide Street, which is comparatively Main Roads about granting any company narrow. The sooner the bus terminal is the right to prospect on the reef. Apparently removed the better it will be, and Roma there is nothing to stop any company from Street is the only alternative site within prospecting on any part of the Barrier Reef. reasonable distance of the city and its hotels. That gives them the right to sink wells, which Mr. Lee: You mean that the booking would destroy much of the reef. If oil is office should remain there? found on any part of the reef, it is guineas to gooseberries that other companies will put Mr. MELLOY: The railway booking down wells along the whole length of the office? reef, which would mean the end of the reef for tourist purposes. The Minister for Mines Mr. Lee: No, the booking office. told the Leader of the Opposition last week that at present any oil company has the right Mr. MELLOY: No. I envisage shifting to prospect on the reef. In order to prospect, the whole complex to Roma Street. That test wells must be sunk, and this would would be convenient for passengers travel­ destroy large areas of the reef. ling by rail. The booking facilities would be available within the minimum distance. Mr. Herbert: The Minister for Mines has written special precautions into the legislation We must provide better tourist facilities. that was discussed last week. Naturally, With better standards in motels throughout it does not come under my jurisdiction. the State more tourists from interstate, and our own people, are being encouraged to Mr. MELLOY: The Minister for Mines travel. Motels are being patronised to an has still given the companies the right to increasing extent, as they provide the prospect on the reef. No matter what standards that are so necessary for tourists, precautions are taken on paper, we know and of course most of them are on the main what will happen once they start drilling highways. The train services provide a in that area. The Minister for Tourism good means of transport within their limits, should have a chat with the Minister for but they have not the mobility of motor Mines on this matter. The reef has received transport. world-wide publicity, but we cannot expect tourists to come here knowing that the reef I had occasion to make a night trip from is being destroyed, or even if there is a Townsville to Tweed Heads by interstate suggestion to that effect. motor transport. It was a very good trip. However, one man drove continuously for I compliment the Chief Inspector of six hours. This practice should be closely Factories and Shops and his staff for the investigated by the Government, as I do work they have done, and I extend my not think anyone should drive continuously good wishes to Mr. T. J. Metcalfe on his for such a long period. There were two retirement. I have had a long association drivers on the bus but, by arrangement with him, dating from when I was associated between them, one of them drove for six with union activities. I also extend my good hours. wishes to Mr. T. P. Egan for the future. Despite the comfort of the bus I was In years gone by, the report of the Chief awake all night, and I know that the relief Inspector of Factories and Shops contained driver drove for stretches of only two hours. a wealth of information. It is rather Supply [23 NovEMBER] Supply 1899 disturbing that in the last couple of years The Chief Inspector of Machinery states this report has occupied only a couple of in his annual report- pages. "One aspect of motor vehicle condition which has become apparent under these Mr. Davies: There is only one reason systems of snap inspection is the growing for that-to hide information. practice of owners, particularly young people, carrying out dangerous modifica­ Mr. MELLOY: That could be true. It tions to their vehicles." could be done only at the direction of the This is a very serious matter. Car manu­ Minister. I do not think the Chief Inspector facturers build their vehicles only after much or his staff could take that action. The scientific research to make them safe. In report used to contain 20 or 30 pages of altering the size of wheels, lowering the information, whereas now it contains only chassis, changing its size, and doing all the a couple of pages and hon. members are other things that now seem to be done, young being deprived of this vital information. people are upsetting the scientific principles that have been applied in the designing of According to the report of the Chief the vehicle. I think it is very unwise to Inspector of Machinery, 1,197 cars were allow any modification to the design of a examined on snap inspections of used-car car, particularly a used vehicle. Such altera­ dealers' yards. Possibly the staff available tions are not always made by trained mech­ places a limit on the number of cars that anics, and I think that in the interests can be inspected. However, as 250,000 cars of the public, young lads who want cars change hands each year-they are mainly that almost squat on the ground and look very modish, stylish and speedy, must be second-hand cars, the majority of which are restrained. purchased through used-car dealers' yards­ it seems that these inspections are futile. Mr. Hanlon: Registration papers should Their only value would be the dealers' be stamped to the effect that if there is any modification the vehicle will be deregistered knowledge that their vehicles may be subjected automatically. A lot of these youngsters do to a snap check at any time, which to a not know they are breaking the law by carry­ certain extent would keep them on their ing out modifications till they are called in toes. However, many defective cars slip and told so. through undetected, and they become a menace to the community. Mr. MELLOY: As has been pointed out by the Chief Inspector of Machinery in his "The Courier-Mail" of 20 November con­ annual report, such modifications have come tained a report that used-car dealers in to notice as the result of snap checks at Brisbane are bringing here every day from dealers' yards. The registration of every New South Wales truckloads of vehicles car that has been modified should be subject that have been rejected by the authorities to revision and, if the modifications are in that State. It was stated in the article dangerous, the vehicle should b~ deregistered. that last month alone 577 used cars from New South Wales, many of them defective, were I wished to speak about the work of the transported to Brisbane from Sydney by semi­ J?epa~tment .of Children's Services, but my trailers. Many of the cars were bought by llme IS runnmg short and I do not intend to Brisbane interests at Sydney motor auctions deal with a subject that I cannot finish. after having been ruled unfit to drive in However, I pay tribute to Mr. Clark and Mr. compulsory mechanical checks in New South Butler of the Department of Children's Ser­ vices for the excellent and responsible job Wales. We cannot afford to allow these cars they are doing. into Queensland, as we already have enough "bombs" on the roads. The fact that these I had occasion to ring Mr. Clark recently cars can be brought to Queensland for sale after I had been approached by a person after rejection in New South Wales is a who wanted to adopt a one-year-old child. reflection on the way in which the used-car He explained that the department favoured trade is controlled. It is time a closer check the adoption of children only at birth, and was made on cars that are offered for sale pointed out some of the dangers of depart­ in second-hand dealers' yards. ing from that practice. He said that the adoption of a child at one year, two years Mr. Inch: There could be a border check. or three years of age often proved unsatis­ factory to the child, its natural parents, and Mr. MELLOY: It is suggested by the hon. the department, and he convinced me that member for Burke that a check be made at the department is implementing a very wise the border. If these cars are being brought policy. in by semi-trailers in loads of 25, the point of entry should be a good place for inspec­ Although many children will have to go tion. I suggest to the Minister that some to institutions, I think that is preferable to action be taken to inspect used cars brought the risk of unsatisfactory adoption. I am into Queensland from New South Wales at aware that children can be sent to foster­ the points on the border where they enter parents, and I think members of the public this State. Queensland cannot afford to take should be made more aware that children are cars that have been rejected in New South available for foster-care. Wales. (Time expired.) 1900 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. HOOPER (Greenslopes) (2.52 p.m.): Mr. BENNEIT: I rise to a point of order. I take the opportunity offered by the debate Again that remark is untruthful; it is on these Estimates to congratulate the Min­ offensive to me and I ask that it be with­ ister on the way in which he has introduced drawn. them, and also to congratulate and thank officers of the Minister's department. I Mr. HOOPER: I withdraw the remark. However, might I remind the hon. member include in my thanks the staff, who, without that I have just left the telephone after exception, have been courteous and helpful making a call to confirm what I have just at all times. said. I am the president of that school, and, I wish to speak particularly of the work when the Hon. J. C. A. Pizzey opened that of the Department of Children's Services and school, I personally sent the hon. member to say one or two words in appreciation of an invitation to come along, but did he the work of its Director, Mr. Clark. All appear? No Sir, not him! That is his those who have had occasion to deal with interest in underprivileged children. I know the department have nothing but good to what his interest is in underprivileged child­ say of its work. ren; it is publicity-any kind of publicity. The Committee has heard certain rumb­ Mr. Davies: That is nasty. lings from the hon. member for South Mr. HOOPER: I am not being nasty; I am Brisbane relative to ~arrala House. Earlier today hon. members heard a very good telling the truth. speech by the hon. member for Ithaca, in Mr. BENNETI: I rise to a point of order. which he made the statements made bv the I am tired of these filthy innuendoes and hon. member for South Brisbane look so untruthful comments. The conduct of the ridiculous that that hon. member should Chairman of Committees leaves much to be again walk out of the Chamber. desired. If he starts getting personal I will Mr. Bennett: I tell the truth. I do not start telling the truth about him. engage in telling lies in this Chamber, as the Minister does. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Smith): Order! I ask hon. members, if they Mr. HOOPER: I do not intend to engage have a point of order, to rise in their places in telling untruths, either. and state it, otherwise they will be asked to resume their seats. That applies to the hon. Mr. Bennett: Or in filth, either, as the member for South Brisbane. I ask the hon. Minister does. member for Greenslopes to please accept the explanation given by the hon. member for Mr. HOOPER: I intend to put before the South Brisbane and withdraw the remark. Committee the lack of interest of the hon. member for South Brisbane in under­ Mr. HOOPER: I withdraw the remark that privileged children. Right in the middle of he has never been there. I have already done the hon. member's electorate is the . Queens­ that. land School for the Deaf. It is a most important school for underprivileged child­ Mr. BENNEIT: The remark I want with­ ren, which also provides dormitory accom­ drawn is that I am not interested in under­ modation for blind children from the coun­ privileged children except for publicity. I try. The hon. member has never once been think it is particularly offensive and I ask near it. that it be withdrawn. Mr. BENNEIT: I rise to a point of order. Mr. HOOPER: Very well, I will withdraw The statement by the hon. member for that remark but continue with the line that if Greenslopes is completely untrue. For 10 he is interested we should like to see his years while I was an alderman, before the interest. hon. member for Greenslopes was in public Mr. Davies: The Minister would not let life, I often attended that school. They him be interested in Karrala. approach me privately. The hon. member for Greenslopes is only making another Mr. Bennett: And the Minister would not attempt to be offensive and-- let Channel 9 go there either. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. Mr. HOOPER: The Minister's remarks that Smith): Order! If the hon. member wishes the hon. member had never previously to take a point of order, he must state it. attempted to go to Karrala and had never visited any of the homes from which these Mr. BENNETT: The hon. member for girls come was rather interesting, and it Greenslopes has made remarks that are stands uncontradicted. I do not know just untruthful. They are offensive to me, and I what to believe of the statements made by ask that they be withdrawn. the hon. member, and I am sure the general Mr. HOOPER: I will withdraw the public do not. After all, what he has omitted remark that the hon. member for South to say is that Karrala is, in fact, a place of Brisbane has never been there. I repeat that correction. I have been there and seen it. he has never been there since he has been Mr. Bennett: It should not be a place of a member of this Assembly. brutality. Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1901

Mr. HOOPER: It is not a place of bru­ We find that through Morris Woollen Mills tality. I have been there. I have visited the (Ipswich) Pty. Ltd. a further four Training place, as the Leader of the Opposition has, Within Industry Job Instruction Programmes and I can only say that with the present were held for 3 8 personnel at the mill early Minister and with Mr. Clark administering in the quarter. Through the Department the Department of Children's Services as of Education, 27 trade teachers from the Director, we have nothing to fear. Automotive Trades School, South Brisbane, I deal now with another matter coming completed the abridged Job Safety Pro­ under Mr. Clark's jurisdiction, which came gramme. Three programmes were conducted. before the Committee previously and in The Central Technical College teachers will which I am particularly interested. I refer be completed in late October, and this means to adult adoption, introduced when the that all colleges, except Mt. Isa, will have Adoption of Children Act was amended in been covered. 1964. The sixth annual intake of trainee manual Mr• .Bennett interjected. training teachers completed their safety train­ The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. ing at East Brisbane in September as part of Smith): Order! The hon. member for South their over-all training prior to appointment Brisbane is causing unnecessary disturbance to manual training centres at high schools. in the Chamber. If he wishes to remain in There were 50 trainees in the group and the Chamber, he will accord the hon. three courses were conducted. member who is speaking the right to be heard. Training also extended to the Ampol Oil Mr. HOOPER: I was referring to adult Refinery at Lytton where quite a number adoption introduced into the Adoption of of personnel have been trained. The Cap­ Children Act in 1964. I inquired of Mr. ricornia Regional Electricity Board, Rock­ Clark in recent weeks how that facet of hampton, appointed a safety officer within adoption has been carried out and how much the last 12 months, and the division has interest there is in it. In the debate on that been assisting in the implementation of a amendment I spoke about a hypothetical safety programme. case; in fact, it related to my own brother. Unfortunately, he did not live to be legally At Rheem Australia Pty. Ltd. two job adopted by my 88-year-old mother. He instruction programmes were conducted in passed away this year. August for 15 supervisory personnel of the company, and they were well received. The It is interesting to note that since the Electricity Department of the Brisbane City amendment of the Act quite a number of Council carried on a job safety programme people have taken advantage of the pro­ for 12 supervisory officers. At Humes Ltd. visions covering adult adoption. Sixteen a job safety programme was held for eight men and nine women over the age of 21 supervisory personnel and further training years have been adopted. If anything makes will be undertaken by this company in the me happy, that does. Apart from the work next quarter. Four persons drawn from the carried out with normal infant adoptions, Department of Main Roads, one from the this is a most important function that has Queensland Government Railways, and two been introduced by the amending legislation. from Evans Deakin & Co. Pty. Ltd., and I now wish to speak briefly about occupa­ the division's new field officer attended a tional safety. In doing so I commend to job safety programme on 14 and 15 Sep­ hon. members the various brochures, tember. They then went on to complete pamphlets and leaflets that are available the institute during the following week. through the Division of Occupational Safety A further institute is scheduled for the next of which Mr. Hilless is the Chief Safety quarter. A Mr. A. A. Siddiqui spent two Engineer. The Division of Occupational weeks in the section, under the Colombo Safety is one of the important sub­ Plan. departments of the Department of Labour and I have already referred to the bulletins and Tourism. One of the very interesting facts pamphlets and pointed out where they can about this section is that while it has no be obtained. Addresses, talks, interviews, and punitive powers it continues to advance so on are also available. the objective of occupational safety by means of education and publicity. The work car­ The Senior Inspector of Scaffolding and the ried out in the last financial year is well publicity and educational officer were invited summarised by the Chief Safety Engineer in to attend an evening at Eagle Farm arranged his annual report for 1966-67. On making by A. V. Jennings Industrie·s Aust. Ltd., an further inquiries into the operation of this Australia-wide building firm. Safety talks division _I find that. b_o_th monthly and quarterly were given, and a film was screened before summanes of actiVIties are made to provide the 23 personnel who attended. By invita­ an assessment of progress. The latest of tion an officer of the division addressed a these, of course, is subsequent to the annual meeting of 37 members of the Rocklea report, and it emphasises the valuable work Rotary Club. An address was given and a that is being performed. I should like to film was screened at the Fassifern Potato read from this quarterly summary for the Festival. Students attending the personnel information of hon. members. I have certificate course at the Institute of Tech­ obtained this information through the good nology were given a lecture/ screening as part office of the Minister. ~ of their studies on ocn1pational safety. 1902 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

On 12 September, the publicity and educa­ behalf of the department, has received from tional officer was interviewed on radio 4BK, the Librarian of the Ministrv of Agriculture by Mrs. Horan, the theme being "Occupa­ a letter couched in the following terms:- tional Safety". "Film: 'Safety in the Rural Industries' Mr. Bennett: What would she know? "I am writing concerning the above film of which two copies were purchased Mr. HOOPER: She would probably know by this Ministry in June, 1966. more than the hon. member. "Owing to the heavy demand placed This contact was through the Occupational upon our existing copies by our Safety Officers we find it necessary to purchase a Safety News Bulletin. further copy to enable the library to keep Mr. Bennett interjected. pace with bookings. "I should be grateful if you would treat Mr. HOOPER: Even if Mrs. Horan did this order as urgent in view of the film's not know what occupational safety was, she heavy bookings during our present lecture was trying to find out for the people listen­ season." ing to 4BK. That is indeed commendation of the work As I indicated, the contact with Mrs. Horan done by the Queensland Division of came through the Occupational Safety News Bulletin. The fire and safety committee of Occupational Safety. Amoco Australia Pty. Ltd. was addressed on I shall leave it to the Minister for Labour the job safety programme on 6 September and Tourism and the Minister for Justice to and, as a result, it is interested in conducting decide who has jurisdiction over my next up to three programmes later in the year. point. The previous Minister for Labour That is a fairly good effort. and Tourism introduced a Bill to repeal the Contractors' and Workmen's Lien Act. To The fourth Australian and New Zealand date nothing has been substituted for it. I Economics Conference was held at the Uni­ commend to the Government the desirability versity of Queensland on 17 and 18 August, of extending some form of protection to and was attended by the publicity and educa­ subcontractors, and suggest the proposal tional officer. submitted, in the form of a Bill, by the sub­ There are so many facets to occupational contractors. They believe it is a workable safety that one does not know which is the suggestion. To refresh the memory of the most important one. I have indicated some Minister I mention that it is headed "The of the undertakings of this department. The Subcontractors' Protection Act". A Bill Queensland Council is part and parcel of the should be introduced to afford protection to National Safety Council. The displays that subcontractors and I look forward to some are available as commercial window displays action being taken in the near future along are extremelY im:rortant. those lines. Relative to safety ·surveys and general In the early part of my speech there was a·ssistance to clients, a further survey of the a little disruption. I could never be more Wacol Prison Farm establishment was of sincere in my life than when I say I have special interest. A rescue-breathing lecture­ every confidence in the Minister and in demonstration was given to 17 personnel of Mr. Clark, the Director of the Department the Queensland Ammonia Company at Pink­ of Children's Services. enba. Information was also conveyed to a number of companies which had safety prob­ Mrs. JORDAN (Ipswich West) (3.13 lems, and new contacts were made both in p.m.): In the main, I wish to deal more fully Brisbane and Rockhampton. Follow-up with a certain subject, but firstly I pay visits were carried out as time permitted. tribute to the various departmental officers who have been so helpful and courteous to Film screenings and talks have been most me since I became a member of this important features of the work of the occu­ Assembly. I pay a tribute to them all and pational safety division. Tremendous interest believe that from the top down they are has been shown in the work carried out by all very dedicated, humane, helpful and the Queensland Division of Occupational pleasant in the way they attend to anything Safety. Hon. members will recall that two we put before them. Unfortunately I have films were produced by the Department of not sufficient time to deal with some of the Labour and Tourism for the Occupational departments and the personal and humani­ Safety Division, in conjunction with the safety tarian nature of the work they do, particu­ conventions held in Queensland. Both films, larly the Department of Children's Services. "Safety in the Meat Industry" and "Safety in Rural Industries," have been in great demand Much has been said during the last few in Australia and overseas. Copies of the days about Karrala House. Following what former have been purchased by organisations was said this morning, I want to say some­ in New Zealand and South Africa, and thing on this matter. The Leader of tht> "Safety in Rural Industries" has been in Opposition and I sent to the Minister a demand in Great Britain through the Minis­ letter containing our ideas on Karrala try of Agriculture, Fisherie·s and Food. Hon. House. Neither he nor I have gone behind members will be interested to know that Kine­ anybody's back in what we have had to say. tone Productions, which did the filming on We put it in writing to the Minister. Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1903

The Minister, in making his speech this me to waver from what I, from my own morning-a speech calculated, if I may say observations when I visited Karrala House, so, to provoke and incite-caused me, I am thought was right. Indeed, only very sorry to say, to lose some of the personal recently the same union secretary again respect that I had for him and the work he rang me, this time to commend me for with­ does. I was deeply shocked that he should standing pressure. He said that he believed have done such a thing. I claim no privilege a member of Parliament had to resist various as a woman in this Chamber. I never have. pressures and do what his conscience I can take it and I can give it-I have done thought was right. I appreciated that action. that outside over the years-or I would I still agree that the union has every right not be here. I do not expect the Minister to indicate its loyalty to Dr. Atherton; in to make any allowance for the fact that I fact, I would not think well of it if it did am a woman, but I think the way in which not, because I believe that loyalty is very he has personally attacked what has been said important. about policy and conditions during this debate In this case, however, I think that the has been a shocking thing indeed. union has taken up on an incorrect basis I do not believe in personal attacks. I what has been said in this Chamber by have not made any in this debate, I have my Leader, myself, and other members of not made any in any other debate, and I the A.L.P. I repeat: we have criticised, pray God that I may never resort to such myself in particular, the conditions and steps and belittle myself by so doing. But patterns of confinement at Karrala House. I feel today that I must make some reply We believe that the standard set is too to what has been said about what I believe low. Even though we believe this, we a<>ree was constructive criticism of the Minister's that it is also necessary to have secu~ity, department. The Minister has let only cer­ firmness and a certain amount of discipline. tain people into the home. It seems as if I. point out that no employee at the home, perhaps where there is smoke there is fire. canng fo~ these girls as her job of work, I suppose I will not get in there again to could dec1de (nor could any three or more of have another look. them decide) to give a girl a bed to lie on· nor Mr. Benne«: You have no chance under could she decide to let a girl, on days as this Government. hot as today or yesterday, have an extra wash; nor could she decide to let a girl Mrs. JORDAN: None whatever. I am have an extra shower; nor could she decide informed that as late as today the Minister that a girl should have a pedestal in her refused permission to Channel 9 to go there. room for her toilet needs. That is in Never at any time have I criticised Dr. stark contrast with the attitude of a number Atherton or Sister Kraut personally. I do of unions on whose behalf I have made not know them well enough to do so, and representations. There was a room in the I am not, nor do I pretend to be, an expert Railway Department not unlike the room on psychiatric treatment, but if the pattern in question-very dark, and poorly lit-in for the day of entry and the first few days which the men had to sit and have their at Karrala House is the thinking and recom­ meals. The table was a not-very-clean mendation of Dr. Atherton, I disagree with wooden table, covered with black soot to it. such a degree that it could not be scrubbed off. I took the matter up with the Minister There are a number of authorities on for Transport and he, to his credit, had juvenile delinquency who have a different fluorescent lighting installed, a laminex top approach to setting young people on a better put on the table, and other improvements moral track. In America there is a different effected. system. There are many probation officers and social workers, many of them working Did those unionists criticise me for the in conjunction _with the health authorities, improvements that I got for them? No; and the pattern Js to try to keep troublesome they were pleased about them. The very young people in their own homes and in the same principle is involved in this instance­ community and teach them how to live in the criticism of conditions and facilities­ society as it is. As much as possible of that and this is where I think the union has gone is done. The authorities try as much as pos­ astray. sible not to segregate the girls in confine­ Let me say, too, on the question of the ment in conditions totally different from union meeting, that my phone rang hot last those found in the community. If they are night when some of the people came off subject to such conditions and are then shift and told me what went on at the thrown back into the community again as it meeting. The decision of the meeting could really is, confusion results. have been unanimous-! do not know-but I know that a number of people left in What the union said in the Press this disgust when they saw the true nature of morning after its quick meeting between the meeting and the true issue being discussed. shifts yesterday is nothing new to me. I knew that all along. I knew it at the initial Hon. members on this side of the Chamber stage, when I offered some criticism. An were not attacking the staff or the way official of the union rang me and told me so. they carried out their work. We were All right; that was fair enough. That is attacking the basic concept of treatment at what the union thinks. That did not cause Karrala House, the basic patterns of behaviour 1904 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

and treatment laid down. Again I am not As to toilet and washing facilities, I again bringing into this question any psychiatric say that these are provided in prisons, even treatment or occupational therapy; I am for the very worst and most dangerous leaving that right out of consideration at criminal types of prisoners; they are pro­ the moment and dealing only with the very vided for big, strong men. There are types basic needs that human beings require in of pedestals •available which flush from the their daily life-toilet facilities, facilities for outside, and no matter how bad these girls cleanliness, and the conditions to which they are, I cannot see how they can be expected are subjected mentally. We admit that these to do more damage either to themselves or girls are extremely difficult girls of the worst to the property or staff than would danger­ type. Nevertheless, they are human beings, ous criminals in prisons. It is unthinkable and I still believe, since I have seen Karrala that girls, or indeed anybody, particularly in House, and in spite of all that has been weather such as we are having at present, said by the Minister, that the standard begins should have to go three days without a bath at too low a stage. or a change of clothing. It is bad enough in normal weather, but I shudder to think, as I shall not go over the details of ventilation, I said before, what it would be like yester­ but I shudder to think what room 9 is like day and today. today, with a little window in the top and no cross-ventilation. I shudder to think what I do not believe the conditions at Karrala it was like yesterday, with lOO-degree heat House would encourage anyone to try to in Ipswich, and I might go so far as to improve, and I appeal to the Minister to say that even a good girl would rebel. reconsider his decision in regard to the pre­ I know darn well I would. I would be sent set-up and to provide better facilities kicking and screaming and banging on the for these girls. I know there must be pro­ door. tection for the girls themselves as well as for the community and the staff who have to Mr. Bennett: It would be a sweat-box. carry out their duties. I feel it is a difficult task to get through to such juvenile delin­ Mrs. JORDAN: A sweat-box indeed. quents as those who end up in Karrala When I saw it, it was winter-time and the House. Indeed, I admit that such work gets draughts blowing across the floor were little or no thanks from the girls themselves something that no girl should have to put up or from the community. However, even with, with thin canvas over her on the floor. though this may be so and such offenders The Minister might have put up with it in must be subject to specialised treatment, the Army-that is his business; maybe that is there is considerable evidence of constant what the Army does-but I do not believe innovation in a number of other countries any girl, particularly a juvenile, 13t years of to try to combat this evil of juvenile delin­ age, should be subjected to this sort of quency and I believe that the basic civil treatment. It is inhuman, and I do not see rights of youthful offenders must be recog­ how one could expect these girls to return nised. to a good moral path with such treatment. Constant efforts must be made to help I know I would rebel, and rebel darn these young people in spite of themselves, strongly. and in spite of the present smugness of the I do not agree that the practice of pro­ Minister. I have always been taught to viding privileges for good behaviour is a consider the rights of others, and that others commendable one for dealing with emotion­ are entitled to an opinion. It was Emerson ally disturbed and rebellious young girls. who said, "I may not believe in what a Whether the policy instituted, for privileges person says, but I will fight for his right to to be gained from the lower standard, sub­ say it". That is as true today as it was when ject to good behaviour, is positive, as the he said it. The Minister does not allow this Minister claims in his reply to my Leader right, apparently, and viciously attacks any­ .md myself, and not negative, as he suggests one who dares to offer constructive criticism . we said, is beside the point. Call it posi­ I submit that what my Leader and other tive; call it negative; call it what you like; hon. members on this side of the Chamber it is still the same treatment. What we call have said, both in writing and orally, is it makes no difference whatever. precisely that. Again I appeal to the better side which I am sure the Minister must have, On the question of better natural light­ and which I feel sure many of the girls at ing and free circulation of air, the Minister Karrala have. I ask him to give them some indicated in his reply to my Leader and help and understanding. myself that he would investigate the possi­ bility of the upper portion of the wooden Juveniles are an important section of our shutters being replaced with a wire mesh. society. If we fail them we fail society, and But although he wrote to us in July. no we fail ourselves. It is an indictment of us, alteration has been made. The same as adults, as well. Deprived of self­ applies to the suggestion of my Leader's and confidence, self-esteem and a sense of personal myself of a bedstead of a fixed type so that worth, the girls are likely to use the only the mattress could be removed from the thing they have plenty of-time-to commit draughts on the floor. Although he indi­ acts of rebellion or defiance. A system based cated he would look into that matter, again on privileges starting at the level as low there has been no alteration. as it is at Karrala House, with the girls being Supply (23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1905

:given certain things as privileges for good Karrala House is not a sideshow. It is behaviour, to me, is only a system of rather strange that the hon. member for bribery. They could pretend they had Ipswich West should be aware that Channel improved and had ·'seen the light". The 9 was refused permis·sion to make a film of clever ones could easily do that. It is the Karrala House. That refusal was trans­ same principle as is involved in the old mitted only this morning. Apparently it was saying, "Bad girls don't have babies; it's only probably a good thing that permission was the good girls who do". refused. I cannot forget that these girls at Karrala An Opposition Member: Why was it House are human beings with feelings and refused? minds. Even the Lord said, "Go after the Mr. HERBERT: On exactly the same black sheep". It seems that the Minister grounds as those on which, a fortnight ago, "protesteth too much". If he believes he is I . refused Channel 2. Under the Act, these right and that all is well, let him have an inquiry. I, for one, would be very pleased gJrls are protected from having their pictures indeed to be proved wrong. I would be very taken. In the case of a still photographer, pleased if it could be proved that my attitude who undertakes to submit his pictures to to this is wrong. At least I will be able to lie ensure that they do not depict any of the down with my conscience and not forever people involved, naturally certain pictures more castigate myself that I stood aside and can be suppressed, but if a television camera­ did nothing when I was not satisfied. Young man .was allowed to take pictures, with the people need guidance and understanding, showmg to take place the same night-we whether they are good or bad. It is up to us did not know how many other people were to provide it. to be invited-the film could contain a pic­ ture of a girl who had been committed to Before I conclude, I want to say that I Karrala. Not only would people who knew have no criticism whatever of the denomina­ her recognise her, but others might remem· tional homes. Although I have not been to ber her. That is a standard procedure for them I have made lots of inquiries about all State wards that I intend to maintain. them. I have a number of friends in the While I am the Minister in charge I have Salvation Army. I believe that they are very no intention of ever allowing to be taken a dedicated people and that they have the television film showing pictures of people interests of the girls at heart in what they who are committed to our care. are doing for them. I point out that it was the A.L.P. that began the subsidy for church I suggest to the hon. member for Ipswich homes for girls. The hon. member for Ithaca West that she should not use the United should take note of that very fact. Away States of America a·s an example. Obviously back in those early days the Labour Govern­ she has not been there. I have, and I had ment demonstrated by the payment of sub­ a sister working as a psychologist in the sidies to those homes that it cared for girls States who wrote a special book on juvenile like these-not only girls, but boys as well. delinquency in New York. I can only say It proved that it cared for young juveniles that there are institutions in the United States who, because of a set of circumstances that the hon. member would never wish to found themselves in trouble. I feel that it i~ visit, let alone have in Queensland. I cer­ a matter of understanding and trying to get tainly do recommend that she should not use through to these young people. It is the the United States as an example. Admittedly getting through to them that is most there are one or two places that are wonder­ important. ful showpieces, just as there are other places that are infinitely worse than anything here. Once again I appeal to the Minister to reconsider his decision, and have the standard The hon. member avoided the main point of entry at Karrala House at a higher level in my comments this morning when I asked than is the case at present. her. whether she agreed with the charges agamst the staff relating to brutality and Opposition Members: Hear, hear! other crimes, as alleged by the hen. mem­ ber for South Brisbane. The hon. member Hon. J. D. HERBERT (Sherwood­ did not answer that question. Minister for Labour and Tourism) (3.35 p.m.): Usually I deal with matters seriatim Mr. BENNETT: I rise to a point of but on this occasion I will deal first with th~ order. The remarks of the Minister are not final comments of the last speaker. The only untruthful, but are offensive to me. 1 hon. member for Ipswich West referred to ma?e no reference at any stage of my speech, the Australian Labour Party's attitude to or m any statements I have made, to the staff young people. I was in this Parliament when at Karrala House. I ask that the Minister's my party was in Opposition, and the Goodna statements be withdrawn. Special Hospital is in my electorate. Until The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ this Governmen~ came to office, girls of the ber for South Brisbane has asked that the type at present 1n Karrala were put into the remarks be withdrawn. Goodna hospital and forgotten. This Government introduced the Karrala House Mr. HERBERT: Under the provisions of concept, and it did so on extraordinarily oood the Standing Orders I withdraw them but the advice. "' transcript of this afternoon's proceedings will 1906 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

contain interjections by the hon. member for ·Mr. Bennett: I cannot stand up while you South Brisbane in which he used the word arc on your feet. "brutality". The CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. Bennett: I did not make any refer­ ence to the staff. Mr. Bennett: Thank you for sitting down. I pay the utmost respect to you, Mr. Hooper; The CHAIRMAN: Order! I am still listen­ I do not want to insult you. I withdraw ing to the Minister's explanation. When I the remark, but it did seem that he did hear it, I will then decide. so. Mr. HERBERT: The next matter raised by Mr. HERBERT: Safety precautions to be the hon. member related to children. of a taken in the transportation and storage of tender age. liquid petroleum gas are receiving considera­ Mr. BENNETI: I ask for a withdrawal, tion. An intimation has already been given without qualification. that legislation is being prepared, although it does not appear on the Business Paper as The CHAIRMAN: The Minister has with­ yet. The legislation will deal with the trans­ drawn the statement that the hon. member portation and storage of dangerous goods. had attacked the staff, which is what the hon. member asked for. The mining inspector at Townsville is investigating the case mentioned specifically Mr. HERBERT: I was speaking about the by the hon. member. The distribution of youngsters. If any girl arrives at Karrala gas is covered by the Gas Act. House at the age of 13t she is an extreme exception. Firstly, she has to be committed The hon. member's suggestion for the by the court-and the court does not commit establishment of a children's home in North very young girls without a very good reason. Queensland under the auspices of one of the She then has to go to a denominational home, churches is a good one. It is something which has to decide that it is unable to con­ we have been trying to achieve for some trol her. If Matron Geddes, or the two time. It is only where large families are Mother Superiors of the other homes commit involved that we move them south. We do a girl of 13t to Karrala she is an extra­ everything possible to keep them in Car­ ordinary case. It has happened, but the ramar so that their families and friends occasions are very rare. The average age of can visit them. But there is a limit to the girls is well over school age and, with the the number who can be put into Carramar, young ones, the homes do everything possible despite the dedication of the staff there. to try to keep them within the situation that We would like to have established in Towns­ has already been described by the hon. mem­ ville something like the church institutions ber for Ithaca. in Brisbane, Toowoomba and other places. The hon. member for Townsville North I think that the State Fire Services Coun­ made a few comments on my attitude in cil is already taking the correct action relative the industrial field. I was a union office­ to fires in port areas. It is preparing material bearer for many years before I entered Parlia­ so that equipment can be moved quickly from ment and am probably the first Liberal one point to another, but owing to our long Minister with a trade-union background. coastline the movement of specialised staff from one point to another presents problems. Mr. Bennett: And you "ratted" on them. I thank the hon. member for Ithaca for The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. his contribution. He spoke about Karrala member for South Brisbane to withdraw the House with a forcefulness and conviction remark he has just made by interjection. which can be acquired only by a visit to Mr. Donald: What was it? that home to see what is being done there. His first contact was with someone who had The CHAIRMAN: Order! I inform the lodged a complaint. He came to me and hon. member for Ipswich East that I do not asked for permission to look at these places, have to repeat from the chair what another and he visited them. He took the critic hon. member has said. I ask for the with­ with him. She was convinced that she had drawal of the remark. been misinformed at the university. It is unfortunate that the students there are mis­ Mrs. Jordan: I didn't speak. informed. This young lady finally agreed The CHAIRMAN: I said "Ipswich East". that the rehabilitation methods adopted at I ask the hon. member for South Brisbane Karrala and the denominational homes are to withdraw his remark. If he wants me the right ones. The hon. member for Ithaca to repeat it I most certainly will, but I has Kalimna in his electorate, and is doing do not have to. I ask him to withdraw it. a good job there. Mr. Bennett: I have to wait until you Before my elevation to Cabinet I was sit down, haven't I? chairman of the advisory board of the Salvation Army girls' home and chairman The CHAIRMAN: Order! I ask the hon. of the advisory board that raised the money member for South Brisbane to withdraw for the construction of Kalimna. Therefore, the remark. I had experience in this field before it became Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1907 my ministerial responsibility. The people The hon. member for Nudgee made several who work in this field display dedication comments about the Tourist Bureau. Con­ above the ordinary. gestion in Adelaide Street has been caused by tourist coaches backing up. It has been The hon. member for Ithaca commented eased considerably since the Commissioner on apprentices. No doubt he was referring for Transport wrote into operators' permits to the painting trade. The course was agreed a requirement that buses shall arrive only upon by the group committee in the painting 15 minutes before departure and shall depart industry two years ago. That is a committee on time. One of the problems was caused composed of representatives of employers and by buses arriving there early to get at the employees, and at any time suggestions for head of the queue and staying till they were changes can be submitted to it. The hours full. That matter has now been attended of attendance are fixed by the Act, and they to. apply to all trades. I suggest that the A central city transport terminal would be hon. member bring the matter to the notice of very definite advantage, but not necessarily of the group committee. at Roma Street. The provision of such a The hon. member for Sandgate made some terminal will have to be faced up to even­ of the most remarkable statements that I tually, possibly before the provision have heard for a long time. He accused me of our new headquarters. of being lax in my duty to deal with cases The provision of relief drivers on pas­ of cruelty. I expected to hear some evidence senger coaches is a matter for the Minister to support his charge. He did not produce for Transport. Although it does not come any, but went on to deal with something within my purview, I suggest that if the else. Obviously he has no case to present. hon. member was kept awake by fear for In case there are some who may have heard his safety he has an obligation to pass on and believed him, I assure them that his that information. That would not be a matter statement was quite untrue. In any case of "dobbing anyone in" but of protecting of cruelty brought to our notice appropriate other lives. If a driver breaches the rules action is taken through the Childrens' Court, set by his own organisation and risks the if it is the responsibility of that court, or the lives of others, there is a moral obligation police, who have the job of investigating on the hon. member to pass that information such cases. What the hon. member has on. The company makes the regulations. If done is accuse officers who have the job no customer complains to the company that of administering this department of failing one of the drivers is misbehaving, how on to pass on information that they receive. earth can the company or the relevant auth­ Again, that is quite untrue; hon. members orities find out what is going on before have said enough complimentary things about an accident ultimately occurs? If it is not the Department of Children's Services to too late, I suggest that the hon. member for prove that. Nudgee should talk to the people concerned and make sure that the position has been Mr. DAVIES: I rise to a point of order. rectified. I draw your attention, Mr. Hooper, to the The next section of the hon. member's state of the Committee. speech related to the inspection of motor (Quorum formed.) vehicles. I informed the Committee in my introductory remarks that an 'additional six Mr. Bennett: Even the Minister's own inspectors of motor vehicles will be members don't want to hear him. appointed this year, and that should assist considerably in increasing the number of The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ snap inspections. It is obvious that the ber for South Brisbane has already been importation of used cars from New South warned by the Temporary Chairman. I Wales to Queensland cannot be prevented. It now remind him that I do not intend to has been going on ever since cars came onto allow persistent interjections. the road. Used cars bring higher prices in Queensland than they do in New South Mr. HERBERT: The next speaker in the Wales, and it is a normal trading arrange­ debate was the hon. member for Warwick. ment. He spoke on the promotion of Warwick Mr. Melloy: Couldn't you have border as part of triangular tours. He did a par­ ticularly good job recently when a series of checks? tourist promotion meetings was held in Mr. HERBERT: What-sit on the border the Warwick area. People in Warwick are and inspect every vehicle? now co-operating with those at Toowoomba and Dalby in the promotion of a general Mr. Melloy: They are coming here in Downs tour. loads of 20. The hon. member also dealt with the Mr. HERBERT: There is nothing to pre­ forwarding of papers to apprentices. That vent a person carrying a wreck on the back is a responsibility of the Department of of a semi-trailer. He could be carrying Education. I have been informed that the spare parts or bringing it to a wrecking matter has been rectified and that everything yard. There is no legal way of preventing should be in order next year. that. 1908 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Mr. Davies: But the people at the border lead me to believe that the young ladies at gate inspect cars going from Queensland to Karrala House are any better than the boys New South Wales. at Westbrook. Mr. HERBERT: Yes, but they are not Mrs. Jordon: Why don't you give them a checking the condition of the cars. Semi­ try? You gave the boys a chance. Give the girls a chance. trailers are crossing the border constantly with loads of cars consigned to wreckers Mr. Bennett interjected. and people conducting second-hand car lots. The CHAIRMAN: Order! I gave the figures relative to unroadworthy vehicles in New South Wales and Queens­ Mr. HERBERT: When there is a failure rand. and they were in favour of Queens­ in one division of the department, one does land. I believe that the present system is not necessarily try the same experiment working well and that, with the additional somewhere else. inspectors, it will be possible to go a little Mrs. Jordan: They are a different sex. further. Mr. HERBERT: I admit that they are a The next hon. member who took part in different sex, but their behaviour in some the debate was the hon. member for Green­ respects is remarkably similar. slopes, Mr. Hooper. He made a very inter­ esting contribution, including in it a sum­ I have nothing but the highest regard for mary of the very valuable work being done the staff at Karrala House, and again I by the Division of Occupational Safety. refute the comments, both inside and outside The hon. member knows what he is talk­ this Chamber, by the hon. member for South ing about, because he had a look at the Brisbane. I think every decent member of work being done. He is not the sort of this Parliament will agree with me that the person one can hoodwink. If he has a look statements he has made reflect on the staff at something and does not like it, he soon in the way they were put and that the staff says so. He took the trouble to satisfy were justified in holding meetings. himself on what was being done to deal with Mr. Bennett: I can assure you they will the problems. find it hard to get an apology out of me. For the information of the hon. members Mr. HERBERT: I do not think the people representing Ipswich electorates, I have just at Karrala ever expect to get an apology from been told that the temperature at Ipswich at the hon. member. He will go off on to some the moment is 105.5 degrees, with hot other tangent. He will probably move into westerly winds. There is no girl in room another electorate and make a completely 9, but there is a thermometer in room 9. At unwarranted attack on someone else in the the moment that ,thermometer inside the future. It could be a police officer who might room shows a temperature of 96 degrees, have beaten him in court, or someone such which is more than nine degrees below the as that, who will be the subject of his temperature outside. attention in the future. Opposition Members interjected. Mr. Bennett: I might have a go at you The CHAIRMAN: Order! because you go round telling lies. Mr. HERBERT: The situation at Karrala The CHAIRMAN: Order! the hon. member House is similar to the situation that some­ knows that the term he has used is unparlia­ times arises in this Chamber; there is quite mentary. I ask him to withdraw it. a big discrepancy between the temperature Mr. Bennett: The Minister today said that outside and the temperature inside. But in I had been absent for two days. That case someone may have been thinking about obviously was a deliberate lie, or a calculated a poor girl suffering in room 9-- untruth. Mrs. Jordan: I am very pleased to hear The CHAIRMAN: Order: I appeal to the that no one is in room 9. hon. member for South Brisbane to withdraw the remark. Mr. HERBERT: As I mentioned earlier, room 9 is used only at times, for the com­ Mr. Bennett: I withdraw the remark pletely refractory girls. because it is unparliamentary. But I draw your attention, Mr. Hooper, to the fact that In relation to some of the other com­ the Minister said this morning that I had been ments on Karrala House by the hon. member absent for two days, which he knows to be for Ipswich West, I advise her that toilets untrue. and washing facilities were installed in the maximum security section at Westbrook and The CHAIRMAN: Order! had to be removed because of the damage done to them by the youngsters. The facilities Mr. HERBERT: I do not think the were of the type that could be turned on protestations of the hon. member for South from outside, but they still had to be Brisbane will convince anyone in this Cham­ removed because of the way in which they ber on the subject of his attendance record. were mishandled. I have no information to Mr. Bennett: It is better than yours. Supply [23 NovEMBER] Supply 1909

The CHAIRMAN: Order! The questions for the following Votes were put, and agreed to- Mr. HERBERT: Getting back to Karrala Department of Labour and Tourism- House, it is quite obvious that the entire $ Committee is very satisfied with the way in Chief Office 893,350 which Mr. Clark and the officers of his department have carried out their duties in Balance of Department, the past 12 months. All the comments, with Consolidated Revenue, the possible exception of those from the Trust and Special small cesspool stirred up by the hon. member Funds and Loan Fund for South Brisbane, seem to have been Account 20,362,373 complimentary. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Mr. Bennett: It seems to have you worried. CHIEF OFFICE Mr. HERBERT: It always does when I am Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen­ faced with allegations such as this without Minister for Justice) (4.1 p.m.): I move- facts or figures to back them up. "That $792,410 be granted for 'Depart- Mr. Bennett interjected. ment of Justice~Chief Office'." This amount is required for salaries and con­ The CHAIRMAN: Order! I have appealed tingencies subdivision, the respective amounts to the hon. member for South Brisbane to being $615,383 and $177,027. discontinue his persistent interjections. I appeal to him once again. It has been said on previous occasions that the Department of Justice does not Mr. Bennett: I resent being attacked engage itself in spectacular activities such as personally. the construction of roads, bridges, railways, dams, power-stations or housing projects, The CHAIRMAN: Order! and this is still true. Mr. HERBERT: Anyone who would resent One of the definitions of "justice" in the a personal attack after some of the things Shorter Oxford Dictionary is "the exercise we have heard here-- of authority or power in maintenance of right". While this is not descriptive of the An Opposition Member: Why don't you functions of the Department of Justice, it get away from it? might be said that the purpose of the depart­ ment is the provision administratively of the Mr. HERBERT: As I was saying before means whereby this function may be per­ the unfortunate interruption, this portfolio formed by the courts. is very well serviced by the many sub­ departmental heads, and I should like to On June 6, 1859, the Queen's Most Excel­ extend my personal appreciation to them for lent Majesty in Council issued an Order in the work they have done in the past 12 Council empowering the Governor of Queens­ months and for some of the heavy work land to make laws and to provide for the that we know lies ahead of us. administration of justice in the said colony. Mr. Bromley interjected. The Department of Justice was one of the three original departments created following Mr. HERBERT: If the hon. member thinks the separation of Queensland from the Public Service heads work hard, he is right. Colony of New South Wales. Although it That applies particularly to the senior men, is one of the oldest departments, the Depart­ because they have a dedication to duty far ment of Justice still remains, and must above that of which we have seen evidence remain, one of the most important depart­ from the other side of the Chamber. ments of the Executive in any State which enjoys the system of government which is Mr. Hanlon: You did not even have a our inheritance. quorum on your side. The quorum bells had to be rung to call your members in. While the machinery of government in our system is law, the activities of the Depart­ Mr. HERBERT: Top public servants are ment of Justice are wide and diversified, the same everywhere. They are not interested covering the direct administration, or through in political matters. Once they get a policy its several sub-departments, the indirect direction they go ahead. They do a administration, of over 130 Acts of Parlia­ remarkably good job, and I think the public ment. It may be truly claimed that the of Queensland should support the apprecia­ department's activities affect in some or tion I have expressed. many ways every household and every resident of the State. At 4 p.m., In fact, by its administration of the law The CHAIRMAN: Order! Under the relating to registration of births, deaths and provisions of the Sessional Order agreed to by marriages, the department maintains contact the House on 12 October, I shall now put with the people from the cradle to the grave. the questions for the Vote under consideration A more personal contact is made by the and the balance remaining unvoted for the department's officers who are dispersed over Department of Labour and Tourism. the vast area of the State. These officers, 1910 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

in the widest application of their roles of North Queensland after serving terms as the public servants, render service in their Northern Judge. Justice Pope Cooper became respective areas by their assistance with the Chief Justice of Queensland. personal, and sometimes private, difficulties and problems of the residents of the Mr. DAVIES: I rise to a point of order. I surrounding district. draw your attention, Mr. Hooper, to the state of the Committee. At this stage I pay tribute-! am sure all hon. members would join me-to the many The CHAIRMAN: In the opinion of the officers of the Department of Justice scat­ Chair, there is a sufficient number of hon. tered from Thursday Island to the border members within the precincts of the Chamber. and from the coast to the South Australian border. I am sure we would all like to thank Dr. DELAMOTHE: Supreme Courts are them for their dedicated service, not only as now constituted at Brisbane, Rockhampton part of their job but in the many extra and Townsville. Provision for Circuit Court efforts they make on behalf of the people districts and the holding by Supreme Court amongst whom they serve. judges of Circuit Courts therein, with both criminal and civil jurisdiction, was made by The tradition which we inherited from the the Supreme Court Acts of 1867 and J 893. English judicial system, that the courts of jus­ Sittings of the Circuit Court are at present ~ice should be independent of the Executive, held at Bundaberg, Maryborough. Roma and IS followed here, and the principal of non­ Toowoomba in the Southern District, at interference with the performance of judicial Longreach in the Central District, and at duties applies even in respect of the lowest Cairns, Cloncurry, Mackay and Mt. Isa in courts in the State. The Supreme Court, the Northern District. Obviously the idea is the Districts Courts and the Magistrates to bring the administration of justice and the Courts are the courts of justice in Queensland. work of the court as close as possible to Provision for a northern judge, and the as many people as possible, m as many dis­ assignment of a district in which he should tricts as possible. exercise the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, Mr. Sherrington: It is a pity to see was first made by the Supreme ·court Act of so few Liberals here to listen to the Minister. 1874. I know hon. members will all be inter­ ested to know that he was allocated, in the Dr. DELAMOTHE: They know all of first instance, to Bowen, where the first this. Supreme Court in North Queensland was The number of sittings per calendar year built and still remains one of the outstanding varies from two at Longreach and Roma buildings of the town. The first northern to five at Toowoomba. Although the number Supreme Court was constituted by the hon. of country centres where sittings of the Mr. Justice Sheppard in that year at Bowen. Circuit Court are held was reduced following This court was moved to Townsville-as the re-establishment in 1959 of the District Courts hon. member for Townsville North would with jurisdiction within certain limits which know-in 1885. When the authorities moved I shall refer to later, those centres were it they left a grievance which I inherited appointed places for holding District Courts. because they took all the trappings of the It will thus be seen that decentralisation court from Bowen to what was at that time of the administration of justice by the the s~hool of arts in Townsville, which has Supreme Court has been followed for many remamed the Supreme Court ever since. years in Queensland. Mr. Tucker: They brought that from your Matters of common law, equity, probate, town. divorce, lunacy, admiralty and bankruptcy are included in the jurisdiction of the Dr. DELAMOTHE: That is right. I am Supreme Court. There are no limitations on complaining about that. They even took the the amounts which may be claimed in civil big Supreme Court insignia of the lion and actions. The jury system is available in the unicorn. Every time I am up there I the Supreme Court in its civil jurisdiction look at it with a great deal of envy. One but is used only where any of the parties of my hopes is that when the new Supreme so requires. Court is built it will be returned to its right­ Appeal lies from judgments of single judges ful place. to the Full Bench of the Supreme Court By the Supreme Court Act of 1895 a Cen­ and in certain cases to the High Court of tral District and a Northern Distri~t were Australia. Subject to certain limitations, a constituted, and provision was made for the petition for the granting of an appeal may exercise of jurisdiction therein by Supreme be made to the Privy Council. Court judges known as the Central Judge and For indictable offences, criminal jurisdic­ the Northern Judge respectively, resident in tion is vested in the Supreme Court, all their districts and stationed at Rockhamp­ trials being before a judge sitting with a ton and Townsville respectively. The Cen­ jury of 12. The verdict of the jury must tral Supreme Court was constituted by the be unanimous. Appeal in the criminal juris­ Hon. Mr. Justice Power in 1895. I have diction lies to the Court of Criminal Appeal mentioned the first northern judge, Judge consisting of not fewer than three judges Sheppard. Two other famous judges, Justice and can, with special leave, be taken to Pope Cooper and Justice Chubb, came from the High Court of Australia. Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1911

The accused has the right of appeal against designed to ensure that the court will know sentence and conviction, but the Crown has before entering upon a hearing the precise the right of appeal against sentence only. matters that are in dispute between the In addition to the exercise of jurisdiction of parties, and to eliminate any vagueness and the Supreme Court, judges of that court also uncertainty which otherwise could tend to preside over the Land Appeal Court, the prolong the hearing. The administrative costs Industrial Court, the Medical Assessment have been kept to a minimum by using, as Tribunal and the Elections Tribunal. far as practicable, existing registries and the services of officers employed in such registries. The Supreme Court Acts provide that the The same jury panels are used for Supreme number of justices of the Supreme Court Court and District Court sittings. shall not exceed 14. At present there are 11 justices in Brisbane, and one each at The District Courts have now been Rockhampton and Townsville. re-established for over eight years. Because The construction of the new District Court of numerous submissions received, it was building in Brisbane is well under way. As decided last year to have the Act completely soon as it is finished the Supreme Court revised and rewritten so that procedures building will follow and then the Magistrates might be further streamlined. It is Court building. anticipated that the Bill will be introduced during the present session, and that it will This will be of interest to the hon. member make provision for the appointment of further for Townsville North. Resumption notices have been served by the Department of judges as necessary. Lands on owners of land at the location Mr. Hanlon: Is there any reason why a of the new Supreme Court in Townsville, District Court judge should not be appointed and shortly negotiations will take place to to the Supreme Court? settle the amount of compensation to be paid. As soon as that is completed and Dr. DELAMOTHE: There is no reason the structures are removed from the land a at all. survey will be done and construction of the new Supreme Court building will commence. Mr. Hanlon: It has not been the practice. The Chairman of the Parole Board con­ Dr. DELAMOTHE: No, but there is no stituted under the Offenders' Probation and reason at all why it should not happen. Parole Act shall be a judge of the Supreme Court and the Governor in Council may Mr. Hanlon: I should think that it would direct that the Appeal Board for any par­ be the logical thing to do occasionally. ticular case under the Public Service Acts shall be constituted by a judge of the Dr. DELAMOTHE: That could be so. Supreme Court designated by the Governor There could be a District Court judge who, in Council in that behalf sitting and acting because of his knowledge of the law and alone. ability to decide cases, would make a much better Supreme Court judge than somebody District Courts existed in New South Wales brought in from outside. I have no doubt before separation but were not introduced that in due course District Court judges into Queensland until 1865. The early legis­ will on odd occasions be made Supreme lation was amended from time to time until Court judges. As hon. members know, 1892, when the District Court Act of 1891, appointment as a judge, whether of the which was drafted by Sir Samuel Griffiths. District Court or Supreme Court, is regarded the Chief Justice of Australia, and which as virtually the final seal on a person's ability. revised and consolidated the previous legis­ Appointment as a District Court judge is in lation came into force. With one small no way meant to be a stepping-stone to the amendment in 1897, the 1891 Act continued Supreme Court. in operation till 1921 when it was repealed by the Supreme Court Act passed in that Mr. Tucker: Nor is it a reflection on the year. The District Courts were thereupon ability of the person concerned. abolished. I have never been able to find the reason for that. Dr. DELAMOTHE: Not at all. It is regarded as the final seal on a person's _Di~trict Courts were re-established by the ability and not a stepping-stone to anything D1stnct Courts Act of 1958. The objects further. In no way is it a reflection, because of the District Courts were: to administer in many cases District Court judges would justic~ in the _locality where it is required, be able to carry out their duties as well as speed1ly, effectiVely and without unnecessary do judges of the Supreme Court. cost; to reduce the cost of legal proceedings for the ordinary individual; and to relieve Mr. Smith: The concept is that, once congestion in the Supreme Court where, appointed, a judge should not look for any with the great growth of litigation resulting further preferment. It prevents any seeking from the increased usage of motor vehicles, for favour. speedy justice could not be obtained. Dr. DELAMOTHE: That is so. Sittings The Act provides for a more speedy of the District Courts are held at the three disposal of actions and a less complicated Supreme Court towns and the nine Circuit procedure by which actions are commenced Court towns as previously mentioned, as and brought to trial. This procedure is well as 15 other major centres. 1912 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

In its civil jurisdiction, a District Court Dr. DELAMOTHE: I could not tell the may hear personal actions involving amounts hon. member at this stage. not exceeding $10,000 where the action arises out of a motor-vehicle incident, and not Mr. O'Donnell: It would not be many. exceeding $6,000 in all other personal actions. If both parties agree, these limits may be Dr. DELAMOTHE: The big call-up of exceeded. In civil jurisdiction, a District women will come when suitable accommoda­ tion is provided for them in the courts. When Court judge is the sole judge of law and the new District Courts building is finished fact; but where the amount involved exceeds in about 12 or 18 months' time, I should $1,200 one of the parties may require a jury. The District Courts have limited powers think there will be nearly as many women in equity and in cases involving the recovery jurors as there are men. Women's service of possession of land, and they may also hear as jurors was of a voluntary nature, as ~hey appeals from Magistrates Courts. were liable to so serve only upon wntten notice to the Principal Electoral Officer or Appeal lies from a District Court in its an electoral registrar for the electoral district original or appellate jurisdiction without leave in which they :.Vere enrolled that they desired where the amount involved exceeds $1,200, to serve as jurors. All hon. members will and in other cases by leave of the Supreme remember that. Court. I am referring now to the present An amendment of the Jury Acts that was Act. passed earlier this year dispensed with the In criminal jurisdiction, a District Court requirement of notification by a female per­ judge, sitting with a jury, may try a prisoner son that she desired to serve as a juror and placed male and female persons on the charged with an indictable offence for which same footing as to liability for jury service. the maximum penalty does not exceed 14 The amending Act also provided that a years' imprisonment. Appeals lie as with female person may, by notification in writing appeals from the Supreme Court in its to the Sheriff, claim exemption from jury criminal jurisdiction. service for a specified period or until she The District Courts Acts provide that the otherwise indicates. number of District Court judges shall not The provisions of the amending Act in exceed six. However, the City of Brisbane regard to female persons serving as jurors Town Planning Act of 1964 provides that will be brought into operation progressively the Local Government Court shall be con­ as soon as separate accommodation suitable stituted by a District Court judge and that for female jurors becomes available. As there for this purpose the prescribed maximum are some country court-houses where suitable number may be exceeded. There are at accommodation arrangements may be made present six district court judges stationed with little delay, it is expected that women in Brisbane, one of whom constitutes the will be called up for jury service in these Local Government Court. One District country areas early in 1968. Court judge is stationed in Townsville. Jurisdiction in the Magistrates Court is Appeals by members of the Police Force exercised by 50 stipendiary magistrates and against punishment are heard by an appeal a large number of justices of the peace. I board constituted by a District Court judge. should perhaps have said an extremely large list of justices of the peace because there The question of elimination of discrimina­ are so many of them. In Brisbane, where tion against women was the subject of a court work has the greatest volume, 18 United Nations draft declaration that was stipendiary magistrates, including the Chief considered by the Queensland Government Stipendiary Magistrate, the Senior Stipen­ in 1964. Jury service was a field in which diary Magistrate, a Children's Court magis­ such discrimination existed in Queensland. trate and the Coroner, are appointed. There Under the provisions of the Jury Acts, and is also a relieving magistrate appointed at subject to the disqualifications and exemptions Brisbane to assist in adjoining centres where set out therein, every male person between the appointment of a second magistrate full­ the ages of 21 and 65 years who is of good time is not yet warranted. character, resident within Queensland, and enrolled on the annual electoral roll for the In the country a magistrate is stationed time being as an elector under the laws at each of 30 major towns. A relieving relating to the election of members of this magistrate is also stationed at Townsville. Assembly, is qualified and liable for jury Each of the country magistrates has a service. circuit assigned to him. There are 206 In the case of female persons, the maxi­ places appointed for holding Magistrates mum age for jury service is 60 years. The Courts throughout the State. provisions regarding disqualifications and exemptions, character, residence, and enrol­ In civil jurisdiction, Magistrates Courts ment, apply equally to males and females, are constituted by a stipendiary magistrate, but females were not compelled to serve as a single justice, or two or more justices. jurors. The powers of these courts vary according to the constitution of each court, but Mr. O'Donnell: How many have been Magistrates Courts are limited to hearing called up? actions involving not more than $1 ,:WO. Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1913

Appeal lies to a District Court where $150 Investigations are at present being made or more is involved, and by leave of a of ways and means of overtaking the great District Court in other cases. bank-up in hearings in Brisbane. This may Magistrates Courts also have jurisdiction involve an extension of the present system to deal with simple offences and may, in of decentralisation. The objective is to over­ certain cases and under certain circum­ take the arrears as quickly as possible. In stances, deal summarily with indictable fact, several branch courts will be involved. offences. Appeals lie to a single judge or It may be of interest to hon. members to the Full Court of the Supreme Court or to a know that next year this decentralised court judge of the District Courts. process will be extended to include Inala, Sandgate, Wynnum, Redcliffe, Cleveland, As well as their judicial functions stipen­ and with some help given to Ipswich when diary magistrates constitute or assist in con­ that centre gets overburdened. Equipment stituting, a number of tribunals established is on hand for the mechanical recording of under various Acts. These include Public evidence in two additional courts at Milla­ Service, Police, Hospital and Railway Appeal quin House. That will just about complete Boards. They also act as industrial magis­ the installation in that group of courts. trates and mining wardens. In the country, magistrates are often appointed as chairmen The Chief Office of the department is con­ of hospital boards, and they are generally cerned with the administration, including returning officers for State elections. improvement, of legislation administered by The number of full-time officers of the it, and the administration of the offices and Department of Justice employed in the officers attached to the department. By Magistrates Courts service is expected to reason of the State-wide distribution of these reach 501 during the current financial year. offices, the total number of officers employed, It is therefore not unusual to find several and the turnover in staff, the task of staff officers retiring at the same time under the administration is not an easy one. age limit provisions of the Public Service. And so we find that on 31 December this The Solicitor-General's Office, which is year five stipendiary magistrates will step situated in the same building and is serviced down from this high office. by the records and accounts sections of the Chief Office, is not included in the organi­ They are the Chief Stipendiary Magis­ trate, Mr. J. H. Moore, the Senior Stipen­ sation of the Chief Office. diary Magistrate, Mr. E. E. J. Pearce, and There are 71 officers attached to the Chief Messrs. P. T. Noone, N. F. T. Applin and Office in the following sections: administra­ T. W. Eite, stipendiary magistrates at Bris­ tion, accounts, records, art unions and bane, Rockhampton and Bundaberg respec­ charities. In addition to the Under Secretary tively. With the exception of Mr. Noone and Assistant Under Secretary and nine who will have had six weeks' service short senior classified officers, there are 13 other of 50 years, each of the other gentlemen classified clerks, 14 male clerks, 21 female will have had over 50 years' service. Mr. clerk typists and nine assistants, messengers Pearce will have served for 51 years and and chauffeurs. eight months. With 130 Acts to administer, the staff. It is anticipated that Messrs. T. Hickey although numbering 71, is not able to find and L. Monaghan, stipendiary magistrates very much spare time for chattering. at Brisbane and Southport, will retire in The Coroners Acts, the Art Union Regu­ June next year after almost 50 and 44 years' lation Acts, the Collections Act, and the service respectively. I take this opportunity Trust Accounts Acts are administered directly of expressing my own and this Parliament's within the Chief Office, together with several appreciation of their long and meritorious lesser-known Acts. service to the State. It is fantastic to think that one of them has served almost 52 years The Solicitor-General's Office, or, as it is in the Public Service. Anyone who looks more usually referred to, the Crown Law back and realises that it was 1915 when he Office, has been closely connected histori­ came into the Service will think of all the cally with the office of the Attorney-General changes that have taken place since then. from the beginning of Queensland. The The same applies to the several who have Solicitor-General is the legal adviser to the served 50 years. I extend to them our very Government generally, through the various good wishes for the festive season, and our departments, Crown corporations and instru­ very good wishes for a happy, healthy and mentalities. The office includes the prosecu­ active retirement. tions, conveyancing, and common law· A registrar of the Magistrates Courts is sections. appointed at every place which has been The Crown prosecutors present indict­ appointed a place for holding these courts. ments in the Supreme Court and District He is usually referred to as clerk of the Courts and prosecute in criminal proceed­ court. In addition to 100 civilian clerks ings. They also appear to represent the of the court. there are 106 police officers Crown in matters before the Court of who act as clerks of the court in the smaller Criminal Appeal. Officers of the prosecu­ townships where the volume of work is not tions section conduct prosecutions in respect sufficient to warrant the appointment of a of offences against the statute law of the full-time civilian clerk of the court. State before courts of summary jurisdiction. 1914 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

The conveyancing section advises on con­ The Parole Board is constituted by the tracts and instruments of security to which Offenders Probation and Parole Act of 1959. the Crown is a party, and it handles dealings The Hon. Mr. Justice Hoare is Chairman in land on behalf of the Crown. of the Board, and the Under Secretary, The common law section is concerned with Department of Justice, and the Comptroller­ the work of the Crown Law Office on its General of Prisons, are members ex officio. civil side. In addition, there are three appointed mem­ bers who hold office for a maximum period The staff of the Solicitor-General's office, of three years, who are eligible for re­ in addition to the Solicitor-General and the appointment. By administrative arrange­ Crown Solicitor, consists of 55 legal officers, ment the period of appointment of one 20 clerks and 17 clerk-typists. member expires each year. It is not a The main function of the State Electoral question of replacing all three of them at any Office is to provide up-to-date electoral rolls particular time. The appointed members of for voting at all elections of members of the the board have held office since its inception Legislative Assembly, for all local authority and are- elections, and for local option vote polls Dr. L. J. J. Nye, C.B.E., M.B., Ch.M. under the Liquor Acts. Jury rolls for use (Sydney), F.R.A.C.P.; Brigadier H. Hosier, by the Sheriff of Queensland, the Central M.B.E.; and Mrs W. A. Freeman, M.B.E., Sheriff at Rockhampton, the Northern Sheriff B.Sc. at Townsville, and all deputy sheriffs in the The secretary of the board is Mr. L. H. country, in the preparation of summonses to Robinson, Administration Officer, Prisons jurors to serve in the Supreme Courts, Circuit Department. Annual reports of the board's Courts, and District Courts, are prepared by activities are presented to Parliament. the Principal Electoral Officer. Another subdepartment administered by The Fair Rents Office administers the the Department of Justice is the Public Landlord and Tenant Act. While the work Curator Office which was established in of this office has steadily and markedly 1916. The office derives its functions and decreased, and applications for determination powers from the Public Curator Acts, and of fair rents are comparatively very few in other Acts, including the Mental Health number, many inquiries are received. Com­ Acts the Charitable Institutions Manage­ plaints are investigated and proceedings ment Act and the Trustees and Executors instituted where a breach is disclosed. Eject­ Acts. The Public Defender was, until men! applications under the Summary Eject­ men! Act are dealt with by this office. recently, attached to the office. The function of the Registrar-General's The office of the Registrar of Companies office is to comoile and preserve records in and Commercial Acts has increased naturally Queensland of births, marriages 'and deaths. in importance and activity with the recent Compulsory registration has been in for~e great spread of industrialisation in Queens­ since 1 March, 1956, so that the system 1s land and the concomitant growth of many more companies in this State. This office, of some three years older than Queensland course, it responsible for the administration itself. Records dating back to 1829 are available in the form of copies made of of the Auctioneers, Real Estate Agents, Debt church registers of baptism, burials and Collectors and Motor Dealers Acts, the Business Names Acts, the Companies Acts, marriages. the Co-operative Societies Acts, the Hire­ All freehold land in the State comes purchase Act, the Cash Orders Regulation under the provisions of the Real Property Acts, and the Money Lenders Acts. It deals Acts or the Registration of Deeds Acts, with matters that are very close to the which are administered by the Registrar of people. Titles. The office has branches in Towns­ The Liquor Acts are administered by the vine for the Northern District and in Licensing Commission which has the power Rockhampton for the Central District. I to grant or to refuse applications for understand that the hon. member for Towns­ licences for the wholesale or retail sale of ville North was a member of the staff of liquor throughout Queensland. It consists of the Titles Office. the chairman and two other members who Mr. Tucker: A very good staff, too. deal wholly and exclusively with this activity. The Adult Probation and Parole Service Dr. DELAMOTHE: Certificates of title has been in operation for eight years and issued in the name of the registered pro­ during that time has proved its effectiveness prietors of parcels of land, and mortgages in saving literally hundreds of offenders from and other encumbrances, and their subse­ recidivism. The greatest use is made of quent release, may be registered. probation in the metropolitan and Townsville The Building Units Titles Act which com­ areas where qualified and trained officers are menced on 1 July 1965, allows the sub­ available. Arrangements have been made for division of land in 'strata and the issue of a visits to larger country centres within a freehold title for a unit in a building of reasonable travelling distance of Brisbane. two or more levels. The number of build­ The probation officer at Townsville regularly ing unit plans lodged is approaching 200 visits Ingham, Charters Towers and Ayr and while the number of individual titles for the will shortly include Mackay in his itinerary. units on those plans is over 2,000. Supply [23 NovEMBER] Supply 1915

As mentioned before, until recently the legal profession who have indicated willing­ Public Defender was attached to the Public ness to act for persons to whom legal assist­ Curator Office. A Public Defender's ance is assigned. I am sure all members will Branch is now attached to the Chief Office be pleased to know that the very great of the Department of Justice. In approved majority of barristers and solicitors practising cases, the Public Defender arranges for the in Queensland are on the panel. Indeed, the defence of poor persons in the Supreme scheme could not work at all without their Court or the District Courts and arranges ready co-operation. representation in the Court of Criminal Appeal or in the High Court of Australia, A scheme of legal aid was introduced in sometimes from his own staff and sometimes Victoria in 1964, and it is interesting to com­ by engaging members of the Bar in private pare that committee's first full year of opera­ practice in Queensland. tions with that of the committee in Queens­ land. During the Victorian committee's first The Literature Board of Review as con­ full year of operations it granted aid to 523 stituted by the Objectional Literature Act cases in respect of which counsels' fees and consists of a chairman, Mr. J. P. Kelly, solicitors' costs amounted to $31,162. O.B.E., Solicitor, a deputy chairman, Mr. R. Queensland's scheme came into operation on S. Byrnes, M.B.E., and three other members, 16 May, 1966, and to 30 June, 1967, 1,555 Mr. B. Clouston, Mrs. U. Mulholland, and certificates of a total value of $109,156 have Hon. B. H. Matthews. The appointed secre­ been issued. Clients interviewed totalled tary of the board is Mr. P. Jones. 3,786. Many of those would have been satisfied with advice given by the secretary, The board is charged with the function of and many would not have qualified for assist­ examining printed matter, subject to certain ance because of the means test. exclusions, to determine whether such material is objectionable within the meaning Modernisation of departmental office of the Act. By the Act, the board has accommodation is still being pursued, and power to prohibit by order the distribution new court-houses have recently been erected in Queensland of any publication which in at Inala, Sandgate and Wynnum in the met­ the board's opinion is objectionable. A ropolitan area, and Caloundra, Cunnamulla, person who feels aggrieved by an order made Gatton, Kingaroy, Laidley, Maroochydore, by the board in respect of any published Mitchell, Murgon, Nambour, Oakey, Petrie, material may appeal by way of an order to Pittsworth, Proserpine, Scarness and South­ review. A list of the publications pro­ port in country areas. The first stage of the hibited by the board may be found in the new law courts building in Brisbane is now appendix to the board's annual report to being constructed. This building, which will Parliament. ultimately be the District Courts building, will, on completion, be used temporarily for A bill recently passed related to the estab­ Supreme Court purposes pending construc­ lishment by the Commonwealth of a National tion of the second stage. Literature Board of Review to deal at a national level with books purporting to have Officers of the Chief Office are now making literary, scientific or artistic merit. This fol­ visits to country offices as frequently as other lows an agreement made between the States commitments permit. These visits, which and the Commonwealth with the object of are not in the nature of inspections, are wel­ achieving uniformity in censorship in this comed by the country officers and are lay­ particular field. ing the foundation for improved relationships with the administration. A couple of years The Legal Assistance Act of 1965 estab­ ago we instituted an annual gathering of lished a legal assistance scheme. This scheme, magistrates at a week-long seminar in Bris­ which commenced in May 1966, has vastly bane. There magistrates are able to discuss improved facilities in Queensland for both with their fellows and senior staff members legal advice and legal aid, and has enabled legal matters, matters of court administration, the provision of legal assistance, especially and difficulties that confront them. That, also, in civil proceedings, to persons of limited has gone a long way towards improving the means on a scale at least equivalent to that work of magistrates in country centres. applying in other States of Australia. Although there is authority under the Act I recently approved that Mr. V. J. Ander­ for legal assistance to be provided in both son, Stipendiary Magistrate at Maryborough, criminal and civil proceedings, assistance is attend a course on "The Administration of at present limited to civil proceedings, pre­ Justice" that will be conducted from 27 ference being given to deserted wives who November to 8 December this year in Sydney desire to obtain orders for maintenance for by the Institute of Administration in the themselves and their children. Such assist­ University of New South Wales. As I said, ance is provided either without payment or several other officers have attended courses with payment of such sum or sums towards locally. costs and expenses thereof as the Legal Assist­ In these remarks I have endeavoured to ance Committee, which administers the remind hon. members of the widely-diversi­ scheme, thinks reasonable after consideration fied activities of the department, not only of the applicant's means. Assisted persons in its association with the administration of have a choice of solicitor or barrister, or justice but in its administration by the chief both, from panels of those members of the office and by the several sub-departments 1916 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

of the Acts briefly referred to by me and the to tell me just what it is that Mr. McMillen many others that I have not mentioned can do that the present incumbent of the specifically. position is apparently unable to do. In closing, I pay tribute to all those people It appears to me-perhaps incorrectly­ who have rendered valuable service to the that there could be a reflection upon the State and given me very great assistance, present incumbent of the position of Registrar especially the Chief Justice and judges of of Titles, Mr. Frank Taylor. If a man is the Supreme Court, the Chairman and judges competent enough to aspire to the top posi­ of the District Courts, my under secretary tion of Registrar of Titles, surely he should (Mr. L. E. Skinner) and his staff, the be able to assist the Minister equally as well Solicitor-General (Mr. W. E. Ryan) and the as can the previous incumbent of the posi­ Crown Solicitor (Mr. J. P. O'Callaghan) tion. It appears to me that the present and their staffs, and the heads and staffs Registrar of Titles could be seriously embar­ of all the sub-departments. rassed by having someone in some obscure position above him still appearing in his My thanks go also to the Chief Stipen­ Estimates, and I should like the Minister diary Magistrate (Mr. J. H. Moore) and the to spell out just what Mr. McMillen is at Senior Stipendiary Magistrate (Mr. E. E. J. present doing in that office. I repeat that Pearce), each of whom I mentioned earlier, I have no argument against his being kept and all metropolitan and country magis­ on, but it could be embarrassing that the trates for the efficient manner in which their previous Registrar of Titles is still there duties have been carried out. doing something that, by inference, the pre­ sent occupant of the office is not able to do. Mr. TUCKER (Townsville North) (4.52 I should Eke. the Minister to tell me whether p.m.): The portfolio administered by the Mr. McMillen is still in Queensland or Minister for Justice is of vital importance, whether he has left the State on the Minister's because the dispensing of justice in the behalf, and what he is doing. I shall be community affects the life of every citizen very happy to receive that information. of Queensland. On behalf of the Opposition, I say that hon. members on this side of On 14 September, 1967, I asked a question the Chamber have the utmost faith in the about delays in court hearings in this State. people who dispense justice in this State The question I asked sought information on and are well aware of the heavy load that the backlog of cases in the Supreme Court has been placed on their shoulders in the and District Courts in this State. I asked that last year or two by the pile-up of work question advisedly, because I was very in the courts of Jaw. I intend to have some­ worried about reports that had come to me thing more to say about that later. both from my own area in North Queensland and from various legal friends in Brisbane. I welcome the Minister's statement that The Minister replied, and a precis of his machinery has been set in motion to pro­ reply appeared in "The Courier-Mail" of vide a new Supreme Court in my electorate 15 September. It was headed, "Move on in Townsville. It is very badly needed, Civil Court Delays", and read- and most of the legal fraternity in Towns­ ville have been pressing for it for many "The Justice Minister (Dr. Delamothe) years. told Mr. Tucker (A.L.P., Townsville North) in State Parliament yesterday that the over­ The Minister also alluded to my being, coming of delayed trials in civil matters at one stage, a member of the staff of was being considered. the Titles Office. I spent about 20 years in "Of the civil cases awaiting trial, approx­ that office, and I am well aware of the imately 25 per cent. would never come to contribution it makes and the very efficient trial." way in which it operates. Mr. Frank Taylor, the present Registrar, has a wide knowledge will deal with that a little later. of the Real Property Acts of Queensland, The report continued- and I have no doubt that the office will "Of the remainder, 50 per cent. would flourish under his administration. be settled at the door of the court. One thing that intrigued me when I was "Dr. Delamothe said the average delay looking through the Estimates for the Titles in hearing civil cases in the Supreme Court Office was that provision is still being made in Brisbane was six months, at Townsville for Mr. McMillen, the former Registrar. six months and at Rockhampton four to He retired some months ago-I think it was six months. in the middle of the year-but it appears "In District Courts, the average delay that the Department of Justice has retained in Brisbane was 14 months, at Rockhamp­ his services. I have no argument against ton nine to 12 months and at Townsville someone receiving an extension, but what at present unknown. intrigues me is just what duties Mr. McMillen "He said that in the Brisbane Supreme is carrying out at the present time. I Court 278 civil and matrimonial cases believe I saw a newspaper report that he awaited trial, Townsville had 10 cases and \vas assisting the Minister in some direction, Rockhampton 10 cases. but Mr. Frank Taylor is now Registrar of "In the District Courts in Brisbane 837 Titles and he is a man with a full know­ civil cases awaited trial, at Townsville 48 ledge of the office. I should like the Minister cases and at Rockhampton 68 cases. Supply [23 NOVEMBER} Supply 1917

"Dr. Delamothe said there was no crim­ Court. There have even been a number of inal work outstanding in the Supreme occasions when the time available during Courts at Rockhampton and Townsvile. a Sittings was insufficient to hear all the "But in Brisbane eight cases awaited Criminal Trials set down for the Sittings, trial and these would be disposed of at the cases not heard being adjourned to a the next criminal sittings beginning on later Sittings. September 25. "As a consequence, there are long lists "All criminal work in the District Courts of civil actions in several District Courts at Rockhampton and Townsville up to the awaiting trial. On present indications, it last sittings, had been completed. will be many years before some of these "In Brisbane, 50 cases awaited trial, of actions will be able to come to trial, by which 10 would be dealt with at the which time the position will be further sittings beginning on September 25 and aggravated by the number of actions which eight at the sittings beginning on October one can anticipate being commenced :?.3." hereafter. "The position is now critical in the I believe that this should appear in "Han­ sard", because it is very vital to my argument District Courts at Townsville, Mount Isa here this afternoon. and Cairns. Unless action is taken to relieve the situation in the very near On 15 November, as reported in "The future, serious problems will also exist in Courier-Mail" on 16 November, the Minister the District Courts at Bowen and Innis­ announced that more District Court judges fail and to a lesser extent at Mackay and would be appointed. He said that the Charters Towers. District Courts Act would be amended to "I enclose for your information a list increase the maximum number of District setting out details of the District Sittings Court judges from six to 10. He indicated held at each of these Courts and also at that the idea behind this move was to catch Hughenden and Cloncurry during the two up with the backlog of cases. years ended 30th June, 1967. This list I am sorry that I have to bore the Com­ also shows the number of Criminal and mittee, but I wish to read a letter I have Civil Trials listed at that date. There has received from the North Queensland Law been no significant reduction in the num­ Society dated 14 November. This letter ber of civil actions awaiting hearing since states- 30th June, 1967, and in the case of the "! enclose copy of a letter and enclosure three Courts most seriously affected, the forwarded to the Honourable Dr. P. number of civil actions awaiting hearing is Delamothe, Minister for Justice, on the considerably more than at 30th June, 1967. 13th instant." For instance, the number of actions listed for hearing at Townsville at I will read that copy letter because it shows 30th September, 1967, was 104. what is happening in the northern part of the State, and what is happening there is "One could possibly say that the details applicable to the whole of the State. As I are unrealistic as at least some of the think it gives a good cross-section of what actions will never come to trial, as the is happening throughout the State today, I result of settlements and possibly other propose to put on record the letter directed reasons. It is not possible to make any to the Minister for Justice. It states- accurate estimate of the numbers of cases which will be discontinued or struck out "At the Annual General Meeting of before trial. The fact remains that there this Association held at Townsville on the are a vast number of actions which would 7th October, 1967, I was directed to write go to trial if the Court had time available to you with reference to the serious delays to hear them. which exist in the hearing of civil actions in the District Court in several centres "My Association is concerned about the of North Queensland. injustice and serious inconvenience and hardship which the present situation inflicts "The District Courts established in upon many litigants. It is also concerned North Queensland are at Townsville, about the reflection which the long delays Bowen, Cairns, Charters Towers, Cion­ cast upon the administration of justice in curry, Hughenden, Innisfail, Mackay and this State and ultimately upon yourself as Mount Isa and sittings are held regularly Minister for Justice." at each centre. You will be aware of the fact that Criminal Trials are disposed of That was a very pertinent remark. before the hearing of any civil actions are The letter continues- commenced, a practice which is desirable "! also draw your attention to the fact in the interests of accused persons. My that the delay in hearing actions greatly Association does not suggest that this increases the costs of litigation. It is practice should be altered. customary for the Court to have a civil "However, during the last two years, the call over during each Sittings and at such number of criminal trials coming before callover dates are fixed for the trial of various District Courts in North Queens­ those actions which the Court has time land has resulted in the whole or a sub­ available to hear and all other actions, if stantial part of each sittings being taken not settled and struck out at the callover, up in the Criminal Jurisdiction of the are adjourned to the next Sittings of the 61 1918 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

Court. The solicitors for parties are additional judges should be appointed to obliged to attend the callover. The District avoid delays, which react on litigants. Many Court Scale prescribes a fee ranging from of my legal friends have told me of several $2 to $4.50 for attending Court on call­ actions that were settled because the hearing over. If solicitors were to charge the pre­ was delayed for so long that those needing scribed fee to each party, the costs of a the money, even though they were offered callover in the District Court at Towns­ considerably less than they had claimed, were ville, for example, would be in the vicinity forced to accept a settlement. of $1,000. Furthermore, costs are neces­ It is not right that anyone should be forced sarily incurred in locating witnesses who to settle for less than he would ultimately frequently have changed their address get merely because his case has not come when there is a long delay in a matter on for hearing and will not come on for coming on for trial. some time. Another point is that a bar­ "My Association is well aware of the rister may not be available at a certain fact that there are also considerable delays time. Sometimes 10 or 15 barristers may in the hearing of both civil and criminal have to be asked before one can be found cases by the District Court in Brisbane. to take the case. It is obvious that even if it were possible I make this plea in all seriousness. The to arrange for a District Court Judge to Minister should appoint the necessary number be temporarily transferred from Brisbane of judges. He should know the number to North Queensland, this would only pro­ required to clear up this legal mess, which vide limited relief leaving the problem is inhibiting the course of justice in Queens­ itself unresolved. land. I do not know whether four, six "The volume of cases, both Civil and or eight judges are required, but the neces­ Criminal, to be dealt with by District sary number should be appointed to over­ Courts in North Queensland is more than take the backlog so that justice may be dis­ Judge Cormack can reasonably handle, pensed quickly and properly. and my Association considers that the appointment of a second District Court I realise that the Police Department is not Judge to North Queensland is the only under the control of the Minister. There way in which the problem can be sur­ has been a claim that there is a shortage of mounted. This would enable each Sittings police officers. Yet they are performing duties to be held over a longer period which that I believe are not police duties at all; they would allow time for hearing Civil actions could be performed by other people. I refer following the conclusion of a Criminal to court orderlies and jury escorts. In Bris­ Sittings. bane-this could apply all over Queensland, "The President of the Association, Mr. although perhaps not to the same degree­ H. W. Westaway will be visiting Brisbane one Supreme Court and two District Courts between the 20th and 25th instant and sit in criminal jurisdiction every day. In each if a time convenient to yourself can be court one policernl3.n acts as an orderly, so arranged Mr. Westaway will call on you three policemen are required for those duties, to discuss this matter further with you." and two police officers act as jury escorts. This means that six more policemen are That letter points out what is happening required for those duties, a total of nine each in North Queensland, but it is applicable to day. what is happening throughout the State. This situation, in which there are many months These are simple functions that could be of delay in certain cases and many years performed by other people, even those who in others, should not have come to pass. perhaps have a physical defect but are other­ Delays curtail the implementation of sound wise in full possession of their faculties. principles of justice, and inevitably people Surely an orderly or escort does not need the who are eventually found to be innocent physique or training of a police officer. I are affected. It is terrible to contemplate do not know the number of police officers that anyone should have this sword who act as orderlies in the Magistrates hanging over his head for months. Courts. If other people were recruited to Such an experience must inhibit a person in perform these duties the benefits would be every way. His social life, business life and twofold: firstly, police officers could per­ private life must be affected during the form other duties, and secondly, juries months he is waiting for his case to be would not be escorted by police officers and heard, even though ultimately he may be that would be better, because it creates a bad found to be innocent. impression to see police officers escorting juries. I would much rather see juries Justice delayed is an injustice to those escorted by persons other than police officers, concerned. Witnesses may die or go over­ and I cannot see why this could not be done. seas. As is mentioned in the letter, delays I wonder what an accused must think when cost a great deal of money. All this is he sees the jury being escorted by policemen. happening needlessly in Queensland. Action should be taken at the earliest opportunity Mr. Smith: He does not see that. to remedy the situation. Mr. TUCKER: I do not know about The Minister has informed us that legis­ that. I do not think that is the real work lation is to be introduced to permit the of the Police Force; I think it could be appointment of more judges. I believe that done by others recruited for the job. Supply (23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1919

In addition to the roles that I have already of the first things that I advocated in this mentioned, senior police officers act as Chamber was a review of the law and a prosecutors in the Magistrates Courts. Each consolidation of it. We have progressed day three or four are employed in this in the consolidation but not the review. It way, whilst other police are at headquarters is most important that there be a review preparing briefs for subsequent days. Some of the law. That is not a novel proposition; of the tasks to which I have referred are it has been done in other States and countries, carried out by constables, but the prosecuting and recommended in other countries by a is done by senior police officers. Eight, nine or 10 senior men, highly trained and number of writers. It is pertinent that as very experienced in police work, are tied recently as last week the Full Court of this up prosecuting or preparing briefs. They State handed down a judgment which would be better employed on the work contained the statement, "The law is not for which they are trained, leaving prosecution fitted to the modern age". That is the work to members of the Crown Law Office. position in Queensland. This would provide good, basic training Not 'all of the law in Queensland is fitted for younger members of the Crown Law to the modern age. You will find some Acts, Office, and I do not think they would Mr. Hooper, that have been enacted over 60 oppose or resent it. It would be a field or 70 years, and the way of life has changed in which they are trained and in which considerably in that time. To give ' an they would be efficient, and this would allow example, when many of these laws were many police officers to concentrate on police passed horses were the mode of conveyance; duties. I do not like to see police officers, motor-cars were unknown. Consequently, to who are trained to do a specific job, being steal a horse was a very serious matter, wasted on a job for which they are not because by that act a man was robbed of specifically trained. his conveyance. Today, a charge of cattle (Time expired.) stealing is still persisted in, with its gravity made rather ridicilous by the approach to Mr. SMITH (Windsor) (5.17 p.m.): stealing a motor-car. The worth of a horse Throughout the years in which I have spoken and the worth of a motor-car are not com­ in this Chamber I have concentrated, and parable, and the treatment of the offences is without any apology, on matters of law disproportionate in a ridiculous way. That is reform. an instance of the type of anachronism one Mr. Bromley: You haven't made much finds in the statute law, both criminal and sense. civil, in this State. Because of that, I once again point out the need for reform. Mr. SMITH: I have been able to make some progress by having the Nominal England, which is the parent country Defendant introduced and a legal aid scheme of Queensland's system of law, has had a established, and, if that does not make sense, Lord Chancellor's Committee for a long I do not know what does. I am particularly time. It is pertinent to consider that in that pleased that a number of Queenslanders in country there is a law officer in Parliament, all walks of life have been able to benefit the Lord Chancellor-there would be an by those pieces of legislation, and I do inclination here to call him the Attorney­ not care what hon. members opposite think General-who, as 'a qualified man, has of them. I am very satisfied indeed. responsibilities to his profession outside Par­ liament. This State has suffered for many I have spoken during the years on matters years becaus~ of. its failure to o_bserve >yh~t pertaining to law because I feel that I have is a conventiOn m other countnes. So It Is some competence in this field. That is that in England there have been, for many not characteristic of all my colleagues here, years law reform committees of the Lord particularly some on the Opposition benches, Chan~ellor. These have gone into specific or their approach to matters on which they problems for him. They have, in fact, made speak, as they seem to be versed in, and many general investigations, but in . most are prepared to talk on, every subject. I instances he refers to them a particuiar have long since considered it wise to stick topic on which he requires advic_e and some to what one knows, and consequently most of my speeches in this Chamber have had direction. This comes forward m the form some bearing on law in one form or another. of a white paper. For that reason, I rise this afternoon to Mr. Bromley: I think you should be chair­ advocate again what I have already advocated man of any committee that is set up. many times. Mr. SMITH: I should be happy to assist Mr. Davies: We don't accept that statement. in any way I could. Mr. SMITH: What statement? The white paper, which is a common Mr. Davies: The statement that when we instrument of the House of Commons, is on this side make speeches we do not know presented to Parliament and it does deal with what we are talking about. many aspects of law. Mr. SMITH: I again rise to suggest reform In Queensland the problems are global. of our law, and it will be similar in purport The task is first to go through the statutes to what I first said many years ago. One and find those laws that are anchronistic or 1920 Supply [ASSEMBLY] S-tpp!y

outdated and outmoded, or which have been of the Act I would be more inclined to rendered useless and ineffective by changed treat the licence as being a licence in this ways of life. regard, and not a permit. . That ~s a point Western Australia did that in the Statute quite apart, but it exemplifies qmte cle.arly Law Revision Bill, 1967, which said in its the difficulty for the untutored or u~skilled preamble- interpreter of laws when he looks mto .a matter which affects him, to find out his "This Bill continues the plan to put rights. the Statutes of Western Australia into a form suitable for reprinting by repealing We are legislating all the time; we legislate a further 95 enactments all of which are too much. I have said that before and I will considered to be spent, unnecessary continue to say it-we legislate too .much. or superseded for the reasons set out We pass laws which govern the sellmg of hereunder." goods at doors of houses; we legislate for rent control; we legislate for price control. M~ny It goes on to point out that in the last three of these things we should not do, but, havmg law revision Acts-those of 1964, 1965, and done them we should make sure that people 1966-1,239 enactments were repealed. That can und~rstand what we are saying. is in Western Australia, a State that we Unfortunately, in interpreting the law, the would regard as being less significant than courts do not look at what we say; they take Queensland in both population and econ­ the law <:!S it is written. One of the reforms omy. Anyone who goes into the matter will could empower the court to take into con­ find that there are many similar Acts on the sideration the discussions in this Chamber, Statute Book of this State that should be or make it mandatory, because at present. t~e repealed. Someone should begin looking for court is obliged to look at the law as It IS them. printed and as a citizen would look at it. A similar problem was faced by the It must be worded in such a way that a Askin Government in New South Wales, and citizen can understand it. That might help in 1965 a committee known as the Law us to understand it, too. Reform Commission of New South Wales The Law Reform Committee of New South was set up. It was a full-time commission. Wales has set about its task. Fortunately for I have spoken about it previously and set New South Wales, it had a full-t~me corn­ out its membership and its functions. But mission, and the need for a full-time com­ when I spoke about the matter previously I mission was hi<>hlighted in the words of the did not cite the remarks of the chairman or Chief Justice His Honour Sir Leslie Herron. of the Chief Justice of the State. The chair­ When speaki~g about a previous commission, man said that he and his fellow members of he said- the commission were "filled with a burning " ... it was found that it was not desire to eliminate anachronisms ,and the possible for men, bearing in mind their inconsistencies that were to be found in the own spheres of activity either as judges, law as it was recorded today, and to so barristers solicitors or magistrates to do reform the laws as to make them simple and more tha'n really attack the fringe of the logical and expressed in terms which would problems of law reform, and to attempt be readily understood by every member of Jaw reform on a broad basis such as the the community." Commission was doing was beyond the That is what is needed in Queensland. capacity of this law reform committee." Hon. members have the spec~acle, recorded He had an earlier one composed of part­ in the columns of the daily Press, of a time members. That statement shows the professor of law on the one hand and t?e need for a study of law reform by men Minister for Justice on the other, dis­ engaged full-time on i~, an~ contint:ously. agreeing 'about the meaning of the word And that is not a peculiarly msular VIew m "permit". If a yrofessor o~ law ~nd. the Australia. In the Californian "Support and Minister for Just1ce, who attnbutes h1s v1ews Local Assistance Budget" which is a docu­ to the Crown Law Office, can have such a ment that I commend to all Australian divergence of opinion on such a fine point Parliaments as a model of budgetary provi­ as what "permit" means, how can the man sion, we find this explanation- in the street know what his rights are? "The primary objective of the Cali­ Mr. Hanlon: Or his obligations. fornian Law Revision Commission is to study the statutory and decisional law of Mr. SMITH: Or his obligations. I appre­ this State to discover defects and ana­ ciate what the hon. member says. We cannot chronisms and to recommend legislation expect any person to have respect for a law to effect needed reforms. The subjects of he does not know about or does not under­ commission study are designated by current stand. If people do not understand it, . they resolution of the Legislature." cannot know their obligations or their nghts. They can, within such a fine point as this, be And it o-oes on to set out the membership, excused for misunderstanding their rights. who sh;uld be on it, and in so doing it points out- I must say, in fact, that I find it very "The Law Revision Commission is difficult to attribute to "permit" the meaning needed to make studies and prepare which the Minister for Justice has given on recommendations concerning complex the advice that he has received. On a reading legal problems that require intensive study Supply [23 NOVEMBER) Supply 1921

over a substantial period of time. Such but owned by somebody else, there is no studies by legislative interim committees problem. If a de facto wife is driving and other groups, for example the State the vehicle no problem exists, no matter Bar, would ordinarily be extremely difficult who owns the car. De facto wives today since there are so many other demands on are very numerous too. the time of interim committees and other groups. The commission has the time to Mr. Bromley: The moral is: never take analyse the problems fully and to draft your wife out. legislation carefully, consulting with the Mr. SMITH: I am considering not the many interested ..." moralities of it but the cold hard fact of This excellent document points out the need what can occur if somebody gets injured for continuity of effort. We cannot have in a car. If the hon. member is interim committees or part-time committees; injured in such circumstances that he cannot we must have a committee which applies sue, he will realise many of the anomalies itself wholeheartedly to the study and the and inconsistencies that have been adversely recommendations it proposes to make. affecting some people in the community. And it does not end there. The question It is pertinent to look at the subject matter is whether we should look at negligence or which such a committee would be requested the fault concept to decide who is in the to review. right and who is in the wrong. Do we A motor-car is more valuable than a horse need to insure virtually everyone against yet cattle stealing is regarded as a more injury? It is very difficult for a person serious offence than the stealing of a motor­ to avoid injury on the road. It might not car. This provision and many of the pro­ be altogether the fault of the other person. visions relating to evidence are more suited He might be put in circumstances where to a bygone age. Today we have different an accident is inevitable. The unfortunate methods of recording material. One rule victim has to establish negligence before he I refer to in particular is the hearsay rule. can recover. It is supposed to impugn in some way the Then there are some matters relating to the quality of the testimony. In evidence is Statute of Frauds and Limitations that should it better to rely upon the independent re~ol­ be looked at. Both the frauds and the limita­ lection of a man some five or six years tions should be subject to review. At the after the event than to refer to written notes present stage I would go so far as to say made at the time, particularly if they are that the Statute of Frauds assists the conniv­ notes of what the man who gives evidence ing and scheming party. There is one case that six years later was told at that time? I Lord Gardiner referred to, that of Hawkins think common sense would dictate that the and Price. Because it was a contract for note made at the time would be much more the sale of land, the essential terms had to reliable than the capricious memory of some­ be reduced to writing. The contract was body six years later. I ask hon. members drawn up and the deposit of £100 was pai,d, themselves to try to recall something that but, because the contract did not stipulate they did even a month ago, let alone a year ago, to see how difficult it is. the date on which possession was to be given, the contract could not be enforced. I have very strong support for my sug­ I think all hon. members will agree that gestion in the Right Hon. Lord Gardiner, such a small omission should not have such Lord Chancellor of England. He is a man great consequences. Moreover, today land of extreme competence in the Jaw. Although is not the most important of our commodities. he follows a political philosophy contrary to It was a very important commodity in the mine, I have no hesitation in adopting many structure of social England in 1828, but of his suggestions. I had the opportunity today we are entering into, and performing and advantage of talking to him when he contracts, for millions of dollars-sometimes attended the Law Convention in 1965. He by word of mouth over the telephone. The is a man who obviously is zealously devoted sale of coal, steel, and all the commodities to law reform. One has only to speak to which today have a very high value, can him for a few minutes to find that out. be concluded verbally without committing Today he is fortunately in the position where anything to writing, yet the sale of a humble he can implement many of the reforms he plot of land, that may be under water most advocated when he was at the Bar in of the time-it may be marshy and useless­ Great Britain. What I am suggesting there­ must be reduced to writing to comply with fore is the suggestion of a man pre-eminent the requirements of the Statute of Frauds and in law. Limitations. I come now to the vexed problem that I pass now to the other part of the statute, arises with husband and wife. In a pre­ that of limitation. At the present time car vious debate I referred to the Ninth Report accidents cause people a lot of inconvenience, of the Law Reform Committee dealing with injury and loss. Such actions must be com­ liability in tort between husband and wife. menced within three years, although it is I have previously spoken of the anomalous sometimes impossible to determine the actual situation that we can find ourselves in today. injury within three years. Sometimes the If a man's wife is driving his car and he victim does not know that he is suffering is injured, he cannot claim against her. from a consequence of a car accident. Even: If he is injured in a car driven by her in today's enlightened medical age, when 1922 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

medical science has progressed so far, it is cases commits an offence. Yet we leave not always easy to know what is the con­ this unnecesary piece of legislation on the sequence. It is not always easy to find Statute Book and do not enforce it. out from somebody working in industry that Under the Vagrants, Gaming, and Other he has contracted some serious disease in Offences Act there is a prohibition against the course of his employment. The workers carrying a torch. Yet the Queensland Road in the Elgin watch factories who suffered Safety Council urges people to carry torches the first effects of radium poisoning (which at night. So where do we go? Under gave rise to the alteration in luminosity of the same Act a person must not wear watches) would not have had early warning soft-soled shoes because he may be intending of their condition. to break into some premises. All of these It will be seen therefore that in some things might have been suited to by-gone circumstances there is a justifiable need to days, but we have come a long way since increase the time in which a person may then. proceed. As an instance, I refer to work I am quite confident that as a result of that may be done-perhaps plumbing. I the representations I have been making a am minded of the situation that arose in my law reform committee will be set up to own electorate, which was referred to by investigate these matters. the hon. member for Baroona. An embank­ ment was built at the end of one of the Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (5.42 p.m.): The streets and in June this year caused flooding. Department of Justice, by its very name, is I have every reason to believe that some fundamental to the Government of this State. council plumbing work on stormwater drains I express my appreciation to the staff of caused the build-up of water. If plumbing the Minister not only in the office under was altered in a private institution or some his direct control but also in all the various stormwater drainage work carried out, and offices that come under his jurisdiction. If a tenant in the basement had his premises we took any notice of the remarks of the flooded some years later, he could have no Minister for Labour and Tourism we would action, although he may have suffered com­ not say anything good of the officers in this plete financial ruin. On the authorities a department, because if we followed his person cannot sue, even though he may lose argument that we cannot be critical or say everything as a result of acting on certain anything derogatory of his officers we should financial advice. I am referring in this not, on the other hand, say anything good instance to the authority of Chandler v. about them either. But I do not subscribe Crane Christmas, to be found in 1951 2 K.B. to that view. It is fundamental of Parliament 164, concerning accountants who advised on that an officer has his answer through his certain monetary transactions. The man Minister, and the Minister is responsible for followed the advice and lost £2,000 but the officers under his control. Consequently, he could not sue. Then there is a recent if there is any criticism of a departmental deci-sion of the Privy Council in the Wagon officer, his answer in this Parliament comes Mound case, 1961 Appeal Cases, 388, which from his Minister. It would be regrettable severely limits the scope of damages. This if a Minister failed to answer adequately case can be related to the escape of oil from any criticism levelled at one of his officers. one of our refineries, which could flow up the river and become ignited-not through The attitude of the A.L.P. in Opposition any action of the refinery but because a work­ compares more than favourably with that man on a ship at Hamilton throws a match adopted by the Government parties when overboard. If the oil was ignited and the in Opposition. I do not say that this applies Hamilton wharf was destroyed, it seems there to all present Government members, or would now be little chance of the owner even to any of them. But "Hansard" shows of the wharf recovering damages, although that when Labour was in Government many he would have suffered considerable loss. members of the then Opposition did not These are consequences of negligence and hesitate to reflect on any administrative officer fault which, I respectfully submit, should within the Public Service if they thought be looked at. they could score off the Government of the day. So I do not accept the suggestion However, it does not end there. I should that departmental officers should not be mention some of the absurdities of the criticised. situation. The Second-hand Fruit Cases Act passed in 1940 lists what cannot be done However, I express appreciation to the with second-hand fruit cases, but apparently officers in the department. The Minister, can be done with new fruit cases. For when he introduced his Estimates, expressed instance second-hand cases cannot be appreciation to his staff for their advice destroyed. If a person gets his groceries and the way they accept their responsibilities. at the supermarket in a fruit case and takes Often the officers can do only what is possible it home and burns it he commits an offence. within the relevant Acts and the policy They cannot even be bought except by a of the Government. dealer. Probably every hon. member has For some time the Australian Labour Party a second-hand fruit case somewhere at home. has expressed concern at the Government's Maybe his children use it in the back yard not placing sufficient accent on the control as a wicket for cricket. Anybody who does of rents through the Fair Rents Office. Only any of these things with second-hand fruit a few weeks ago the hon. member for Supply [23 NOVEMBER} Supply 1923

Flinders, who is a member of the Country As I have said, I hope that the Minister Party, spoke heatedly in this Chamber of will give consideration to completely review­ the necessity for the Government to do ing the question of rents and the need for something to protect people in need of suitable rent controls in this State. If he accommodation. I stress this matter and received more assistance from the Govern­ join with the hon. member for Flinders who, ment, through the Queensland Housing Com­ after all, was merely joining the A.L.P. in mission, in supplementing the number of rental houses available to needy people in raising a matter to which we have referred the light of their income and the rents they time and time again. have to pay, he may not find the problem In emphasising that protection should be such a pressing one. However, that is not given when it is needed, I am not suggesting within his province, so I do not intend to that any particular section of the community make any further reference to it. should be called upon to act as a social I refer also to the question of electoral service agency for those who, because of registration. When these Estimates have the failure of industrial tribunals to provide come up for debate, or when some other wages high enough to enable rents to be opportunity has arisen, I have repeatedly paid or the failure of the Commonwealth called for an alteration to a common form or the State to provide assistance to needy of enrolment for Commonwealth and State persons, cannot afford to pay rents. Pen­ electoral rolls. That suggestion has been sioners and deserted wives especially find made many times by many people over many themselves in an unfair dilemma in meeting years. Again the Minister cannot take rents. I do not think it fair to call on action alone, because any such alteration those who own houses and wish to rent would require the co-operation of the Com­ !hem, o~ even those who have purposely monwealth Electoral Office. mvested m houses, to act as a form of social I am not suggesting that Queensland service agency. should use Commonwealth electoral rolls. I do think, in common with the hon. I believe that the State should have its own member for Flinders, that where there is rolls, the responsibility for compilation and exploitation in rents the Government should control of which should lie with this Parlia­ take action. Although I do not suggest that ment. If there was co-operation between the the Fair Rents Office should exist for the Commonwealth and State electoral offices, a use of those whose incomes permit them person who wanted to enrol could complete a to pay reasonable rents, I think it should dual form and be enrolled for both Federal be available for those who need protection. and State elections. In other words, the form would have a perforation on it, and, if it T~e ,great !llajority of landlords are pretty fair m their approach to this matter. In was handed to the State Electoral Office, that recent years, however, some tenants have office would retain its section and send the other section to the Commonwealth office. begun to try to ta~e landlords down; they feel that they are bemg fleeced by high rents Conversely, if it was handed to the Common­ and they treat all landlords as thieves. Land~ wealth Electoral Office, that office would retain its section and send the other section l?r~s, in their turn, are starting to behave Similarly towards tenants, which is producing to the State office. I think this would make a lack of confidence as between landlords for better rolls, because registration in that and tenants. I believe that the Govern­ way would remove a good deal of the con­ ment should give more consideration, especi­ fusion in the minds of electors. ally now that the matter has been raised Very often the official mind looks at b.l:' a memb~r of the Government, to dealing things with an understanding of the pro­ With rents m a manner that is fair to both cesses of government and of the administra­ landlords and tenants. tion of the department concerned, not from the point of view of the layman who has Estimates over the years show decreasing not the faintest idea of procedures under the expenditures on the Fair Rents Office. The Electoral Acts. When notices are sent out present Estimates show that the work of challenging somebody and suggesting that he the Registrar is being carried out by the is not at that address, the person receiving clerk of the court in Brisbane. Although the form says, "How silly they are. I am I am not saying that he would not carry here; I have always been here", and throws out all the duties of that office, the fact that the notice away. When he goes to vote on ~e has ~o do them shows a lessening of election day and finds that his name is not mterest m the matter by the Government. on the roll, the official rightly says, "Why I hope that the Government will give urgent didn't you send back the information and consideration to examining the whole matter tell us that you were there?" of rentals. When their political colleagues came to office in New South Wales they As parliamentarians, we have to go round did not rush in and completely remov'e rent our electorates and do our official job. But control, although there had been much criti­ we have also to try to improve procedures, cism of rent~! legislation in t~at State. They and one way of improving the franchise is made alteratwns, some of which might have to get everyone who is entitled to be on the been to give a fair deal to all without roll correctly enrolled. I think that common und~ly penalising one section of the com­ registration would do much to clean up the mumty. rolls. When a Federal election is held, many 1924 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply people get their names on the roll but for­ He went on to say- get to enrol with the State Electoral Office. " ... such duplicate enrolments must They think they are on both rolls, but find inevitably be found-as they were­ later that they are on the Federal roll and as our system of non-voting notices and not on the State roll. As I said, common triennial house to house police canvasses enrolment would save a great deal of con­ provide a roll cleansing that is unequalled fusion, and I repeat the suggestion made by by any other roll authority in Australia." many hon. members in this Chamber over the years that it should be done in that way. I cannot, on logic, accept the Minister's statement that it would be found under our Mr. W. D. Hewitt: Do they have com­ system of non-voting notices. In this case mon enrolment cards in other States? it was found because this person was quite genuine. She was not trying to vote twice Mr. HANLON: I am not sure what the by being on the roll twice. This notice procedure is elsewhere. It was suggested eventually caught up with her at her later at one stage that the Commonwealth rolls address. The mistake that had been made could be used here, but I do not agree with was obvious-she was enrolled under both that suggestion. I think the State should have her married name and her maiden name, control of its own rolls, boundaries and so although she thought her only current enrol­ on. ment was in her married name. However, Mr. Dewar: I think the other States had she gone along and voted a second mainly use Commonwealth rolls. time in her maiden name, who would have sent her a notice? I will not mention cor­ Mr. HANLON: If that is so, it would rect names, but Mary Smith could have simplify the position quite a bit. I do not voted as Mary Smith for Baroona and as wish to be misunderstood. I want this State Mary Hegarty for Mt. Coot-tha. to retain control of its own registration papers, rolls and so on, but I think the diffi­ I could recount a similar story about a culties could be overcome by a little more New Australian who, after getting a Common­ co-operation between the Commonwealth wealth reminder, was on the roll twice and State electoral offices. through misunderstanding of the spelling of her name. She enrolled under a slightly When corresponding with the Minister on different spelling from the original State a matter relative to Eventide residents and enrolment, and the mistake was not dis­ their electoral enrolment, I pointed out that, covered until she received a query as to why because of my experience with the rolls, I she had not voted under one of her names. thought procedures could be tightened quite considerably. I suggest that when somebody applies for enrolment there should be some system to Once more I ·am obliged to say that when check whether such a person actually exists Labour was in office one of the perpetual and if he or she is already enrolled. In cries from the Opposition of the day, the spite of the Minister's statement that the Country-Liberal Party, was that our rolls lady to whom I referred did not indicate on were in error-that there were people on the form her maiden name and the fact that the roll twice, people who had died, and this she had changed her name, it is left wide sort of thing. open to anyone who wants to enrol under the name "Belowski" or anything else. I find I am getting instances of people who are quite clearly on the roll more Mr. Kaus: I found a few on my roll, too. than once, although I do not think it is happening in other than a bona-fide :fashion. Mr. HANLON: As I say, I feel that when For example, I have one instance of a per­ an enrolment card comes in, that is the first son in my electorate who was enrolled for thing that should be checked. For what the Baroona electorate on 24 January, 1964, other reason is it necess·ary to state on the under her married name. On 10 August, enrolment card one's birthplace and every­ 1966, almost three years later, she received thing else? I think that is to satisfy the a notice, after the 1966 election, in her electoral office that the applicant is the maiden name, asking her why she had not actual person and is entitled to enrolment. voted under that name in the electorate of If he was checked in that way the officials Mt. Coot-tha. Errors will happen; no should catch up with him if he was already system is perfect, but she had been retained enrolled. on the Mt. Coot-tha roll and was still there [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] after the 1966 election, although she had enrolled herself for Baroona under her Mr. HANLON: I was referring to the married name on 24 January, 1964. system of electoral registration. I think the department conscientiously endeavours to When I mentioned this to the Minister, in keep the rolls as accurate as possible. Of discussions and correspondence with him, course, human error will always occur. I he pointed out that some of these cases- can understand how mistakes occur, and " . . . are initially beyond human detec­ there could be circumstances where a person's tion, as the electors themselves failed to name would be put on the roll more than indicate that they were claiming duplicate once unintentionally. But if it can occur enrolment in a new name even though unintentionally, people with a mind to do so this question is asked on the ·application." apparently could do it intentionally and get Supply [23 NovEMBER] Supply 1925 away with it at least for some time. If arises-if it is warranted-in requiring him such a person voted twice, naturally there to provide a choice of beer with a lower would be no query from the Electoral Office alcohol content. for not having voted under the second entry The Licensing Commission polices and in the roll. In the case I cited it was some regulates licensees. It has been drawn to 2t years since the person had registered in my attention that at racecourses-probably a different electorate. The police canvass this applies also to sports grounds and other had been carried out prior to the 1966 elec­ places-small glasses of beer are not avail­ tion, but it had not picked up the error. able. People can buy only a large glass At all times it is necessary to ensure that of beer. The serving of liquor at these applications for registration are bona fide. places must be quite profitable because there Every effort should be made to ensure that is generally a surcharge over the price paid a second enrolment of the same person is in a hotel. As we are concerned about not effected. There should be some system people imbibing too much when driving, whereby it could be ensured that before a they should have the choice of a small beer person is enrolled for one electorate his enrol­ or a half-Scotch, instead of having to buy ment in another electorate has been cancelled. a full-Scotch or a large beer. At the race­ tracks controlled by the Brisbane Amateur I have raised with the Minister some Turf Club a choice of drinks is available, aspects of enrolment of inmates of "Even­ but that does not seem to apply in all tide" homes under section 19. He intends enclosures at the other courses. The Licensing to look at the administrative approach to Commission, in regulating licences, should this matter, the forms used, and so on, when consider this matter. In view of the surcharge the Act comes up for amendment. I will in these places, full facilities should be not pursue that matter now as I feel that available. It may be only a matter of he will deal with it at the appropriate time. economics in having to purchase and handle As this involves the need for legislation, glasses of a smaller size. it is accordingly not a subject for discus­ (Time expired.) sion in a debate on these Estimates. I want to have a few words to say about Mr. HUGHES (Kurilpa) (7.22 p.m.): I the Licensing Commission. We hear a great preface my remarks on these Estimates with deal these days about the road toll and expressions of appreciation to the Minister people driving under the influence of liquor, for the tolerance and understanding that he and so on. Possibly the Licensing Commis­ displays, not only to Government members sion should be taking a look at these matters of Parliament but also to hon. members because, after all, that body licenses premises, generally and the many organisations which, and so on. Most hotels these days provide throughout the year, seek his advice and car-parking facilities. Perhaps the Licensing help. Commission should be carrying out some I think most hon. members belong to research and deciding whether there should be many charitable and other committees, and a choice of beers of differing alcohol content. are thus in frequent touch with the Depart­ ment of Justice and the Minister. I am not arguing in favour of the intro­ duction of the breathalyser test, but the Press In discussimg these Estimates, we should indicates that since this type of test was pay compliments where they are due. In introduced in England there has been a expressing my appreciation I point out that demand for beer of a lower alcohol content. the Minister for Justice seeks the opinion Apparently the breweries had not taken of back-bench members on matters associated much interest in this before, but they met the with his department. I serve on the Min­ demand when they realised it was there. It ister's committee, and I believe that if it is well within the responsibility of the Licens­ is not the best committee, it is certainly ing Commission to be looking at this sort one of the best, not because I serve on of thing. Possibly research officers should it but because of the manner in which the be investigating it as well, having the respon­ Minister takes into his confidence, and seeks sibility of enforcing the regulations under the advice and opinions of, the members of the Act. After all, the Licensing Commission his committee. That makes it extremely licenses premises for the consumption of workable. I do not subscribe to the view alcohol, and perhaps these other matters that all the brains of this Parliament are could be taken into consideration at the same in Cabinet, but I say that although the time. Minister is a doctor of medicine, he makes a very good Minister for Justice. He has Mr. Honghton: I agree with you entirely, qualifications that earn him credit in two but how do you control beer that is manu­ directions. factured outside the State? The hon. member for Townsville North Mr. HANLON: It is a matter of demand. dealt with the use of police in the courts. You can control only your own outlets. He said should be doing patrol work or other outside the courts, and that The Act that hotels must stock we should civilian orderlies-even including processed and disabled people. implied that these chips, and so on. If should take a rather paternal a licensee is to stock such com- or keep a paternal on, the jury. There modities, I do not think any real problem may be some basis what he was saying, 1926 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

both on the grounds of economy and because importance that justice should not be tram­ we would then use police personnel to better melled and that the rights of defendants and advantage on outside duties. However, I others should not be affected. There should believe the hon. member took a rather super­ be security, protection and law enforcement. ficial view, without going into the reasons As the Titles Office comes within the why police are doing this work. It is fairly ambit of the Minister's responsibility, I obvious that they are there to ensure security compliment the Minister and the officers and protection, and because they have in that office on the streamlining of operations authority and the power to arrest. They are that has taken place. In this developing the protectors of the jury. city more titles are being issued. Of course, We place great store in justice and the we introduced strata titles recently and this, fact that it must be fair and impartial. too, has caused an increase in the work Therefore, we must protect our jurymen and done by that office. Documents are now jurywomen from being influenced in any finalised in one to three days in Brisbane, way by people who may desire to get at and the time of processing, from lodgment them. I have read, as no doubt most to issue of title, has been reduced to two hon. members have, that in some countries weeks, which is extremely good. it is not uncommon for juries to be rigged I notice that there has been an increase or for members of a jury to be bribed. of 7 per cent. in the number of officers in Over the years in Australia there have been the Minister's departments I am very wary odd occasions when there has been an of staff increases, and 7 per cent. is no small effort to influence or bribe a member of increase. If a similar increase takes place a jury, but fortunately they have been next year, one can see the cumulative effect rare. This all leads to fair, clean, impartial that would have on the finances of the State. justice. We must remove any possibility It is very hard for a Minister to determine of members of a jury being influenced, whether requests from departmental heads coerced or bribed. for more staff are justified. Recommenda­ Policemen should be with jurymen when tions are made to the Minister, and the they are not in the courtroom. We do matter then goes to the Public Service not provide jury accommodation at our Commissioner. Care is needed to see that courts. Therefore, juries must be taken to there is no empire-building in the Public their place of accommodation and also to Service. their meals. Here, there is a need for I shall not canvass that matter any further. police officers. Suffice it to say that compliments are due The hon. member referred to court to the Titles Office for the way in which it orderlies. Again this is a matter of security has streamlined an increasing volume of and protection, and authority and the work and become more efficient. There has power to arrest. What if a defendant broke been an increase in the number of clerk­ away from the dock? We do not have typists and clerks employed in the office. chains and leads in this country. In France, I think that much of its work is now done under a degenerative de Gaulle, who in by computer at the university, and copies of my opinion is suffering from senile decay-- documents are now made by photographic Mr. O'Donnell: He may not appreciate methods. This has cut time and increased your opinion. efficiency, and is beneficial to the community. It would, however, be well worth the Mr. HUGHES: It is my opinion, and Minister's while to scrutinise closely all also that of many people in the world. requests for additional clerk-typists and Just analyse what he is doing and saying. clerks. I know that we in this Parliament I consider I am on side with Australian and have problems in that regard, too. We seem Western-world thinking. to be the Cinderella of all departments, and As I was saying, a defendant could break we cannot get sufficient typing assistance to away and assault a witness or commit some cope with our needs. We cannot afford this other offence. There may be an escape bid. in Parliament, so something slips, including On the other hand, certain people in court the standard of speeches. could try to inflict injury on the defend~nt. The police are there to ensure protect10n The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. and security. They know court procedure, Hodges): Order! and they have the authority and power Mr. HUGHES: You are a most con­ to arrest. On many occasions I have served scientious member, Mr. Hodges, and you on the bench as a justice of the peace, have a lot of work to do, so I know that and I believe that the police should do this you, too, must feel strongly about this. It is work. While it may be beneficial to have extremely frustrating. police officers doing outside wor~ tha~ w_e generally think of them as domg, 1t 1s Mr. Bennett: You cannot read typed necessary to provide protection to the fullest speeches. extent so as to ensure impartial and fair justice. Police officers are required to do this. Mr. HUGHES: I never read my speeches. Whilst at first glance the hon. member's argu­ But just let the hon. member try to get a ment might appear to have some substance, I speech typed at Parliament House! I do not believe that very little could or should be read typed speeches, anyway. done in this regard. It is of paramount Mr. Bennett: You shouldn't have to. Supply [23 NOVEMBER) Supply 1927

Mr. HUGHES: I agree, and the hon. mem­ Mr. Duggan: Hear, Hear! ber for South Brisbane has never known me to read a speech. I make rough, handwritten Mr. HUGHES: I appreciate the agreement notes. However, when figures and statistics expressed by the hon. member for Too­ are to be quoted it is very difficult to retain woomba West, because I hold him and a them in one's mind, and there are occasions number of other hon. members in very high when, in the interests of accuracy, I should esteem for dealing in a common-sense way like to have them typed. Of course, that is with matters that affect the public generally. not possible here. The statutes of this State should be expressed in simple and meaningful language. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. As I said, hon. members have reason to Hodges): Order! I remind the hon. member be grateful to the hon. member for Windsor that what he is saying has nothing to do for making this suggestion and I hope that with the Estimates before the Committee. on this occasion his proposal will not only receive consideration but will be dealt with Mr. HUGHES: I am drawing an analogy expeditiously and brought to fruition. with the situation here, Mr. Hodges, and I thank you for your tolerance and courtesy The office of the Public Curator is also in allowing me to do so. provided for in the Minister's Estimates, and I believe that really good work is being I compliment the hon. member for Windsor, done in that office under very trying con­ who piloted the legal aid scheme through the ditions. There is a noticeable lack of House. It was his brainchild; he worked hard amenities in certain sections of the office, on it, and he piloted it through. I also pay and I make the plea that greater privacy a compliment to the hon. member for South be afforded to members of the public who Brisbane, who happens to be with us on this go there. The report shows that 5,400 per­ occasion. He has just arrived, and it is sons sought legal advice from the office of pleasing to see him here. After the hon. the Public Curator in the financial year member for Windsor initiated the scheme, 1966-67, and I think the Government should the hon. member for South Brisbane also at least provide accommodation that will found wisdom in lending his support to it. enable interviews to be conducted in privacy. Of course, as the hon. member for Toowon<> reminds me, it was approved by the Liberal Mr. Sherrington: It is badly needed here Party Convention as a worth-while measure. for members of Parliament, too. So worth while has it proved that 3,389 people have already sought, and been granted Mr. HUGHES: One does not get any­ legal aid. I understand that about 14 appli~ thing in this place-let us face facts. There cations a day are received and processed. is no way in the world that we will get it here. Citizens are given no consideration at The hon. member for Windsor is now all. It is just wild imagination to-- championing another cause, namely, law reform. Again this is a very worth-while The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN Mr. suggestion, and I believe that it should receive Hodges): Order! the support and approbation of all hon. members. Of course, it will be necessary to . Mr•. HUGHES: I believe that the way evaluate the costs and the benefits that will m which members of the public are treated flow from its introduction. In my opinion it in this building is shocking. They are sat will be of benefit to the people generahy, down on hard benches, next to waste-paper law enforcement agencies, solicitors, and baskets. However, that is Mr. Speaker's barristers, and, in particular, will mean a problem, and he does nothing about it. I saving in costs to people who seek their shall deal with it at another time. rights at law. The office of the Public Curator is run on a businesslike basis and its operating I think it is time that outmoded and archaic costs are not a charge on the revenue of the statutes were removed from the Statute Book. State. Because of the work it does I think The hon. member for Windsor mentioned a it deserves commendation. ' few of them, and any hon. member who cares to look through the records in the Some time ago provision was made for Library will see that the Vagrants, Gaming, women to serve on juries. I now pose these and Other Offences Act goes back to 1880. questions to the Minister: how many women Under that Act, a justice of the peace-I have been called for jury service? If any am one, and there are many others in this have been called, how many have been Chamber--can, on warrant, go into any excused? Cards for State electoral enrol­ house that he suspects is being used for ment are still being printed and distributed purposes of gaming. That is one archaic without providing a space in which women provision that should be removed· others can opt out of jury service if they so desire. relating to the wearing of sandshoes i~ Queen If provision was made for that on the cards Street, the carrying of a torch, the burning it would mean a saving in administrativ~ of fruit cases, and so on, should also be costs. removed. It is time that the Acts were Cl~rks of the court perform work for written in modern phraseology that a layman certam Col!lmonwealth Government depart­ can understand, instead of the cumbersome men~s, particularly the Department of Social rei:etitive legal jargon in which they are no,; Servic~s, a~d I wonder to what extent the wntten. State Is reimbursed for this work. 1928 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

The Minister may not appreciate having to Mr. HUGHES: That is a good point. consider this question, but I suggest that In addition, there are so many hotels today he might discuss ways of reducing the delays which are tied and are not giving the public that occur in bringing motor vehicle accident a choice of wines and spirits. That is a cases to the notice of the court or in dates very pertinent interjection. I believe there being set for their hearing. It is my should be ways and means of checking this understanding that many of these cases go type of monopoly and of tying in the for two or three years before being brought presentation of wines and spirits in the to the court for notice of hearing. The delay, choice of these things by customers. This which is sometimes mentioned in the Press must be carefully looked at, with a view, if as a backlog of work in the courts, is not, necessary, in introducing some form of legis­ in my opinion, solely occasioned by pressure lation to see that the public receives the of court work, and I believe the public right of a choice. should know the true facts of this and to I believe also that we should look carefully what extent it applies. If the Minister can at the matter of under-age drinking. I have give us some indication of the extent to studied it in manv other parts of the world. which this applies, I shall be grateful. It In particular, I ·have here books dealing is a very vital matter. It affects the credi­ with Hawaii and its liquor laws. I have bility of witnesses, the availability of wit­ studied the liquor laws of very many other nesses, the memory of witnesses, the financial places and their forms and types of licences, hardship caused, and other matters that have and in all places, particularly in the United a vital bearing on the outcome of the States and Canada, the onus in under-age particular case. drinking is placed fairly and squarely on Who is at fault? Are the insurance the publican. companies really doing the right thing and I know that youthful persons-minors playing the game? If they are not, what -are not supposed to be on licensed can be done about it? premises. They can be on some parts Mr. Bennett: They never have done, in of licensed premises but not on others. the main. But the United States and other places do not have this under-age drinking problem, Mr. HUGHES: Let us find out. simply because the law places fairly and Mr. lknnett: That is why they should be squarely on the publican's shoulders the nationalised. responsibility for conducting his premises in such a fashion that ensures that he does not Mr. HUGHES: The hon. member is wed­ serve minors with liquor. He loses his ded to a policy of socialisation and I expect licence if he has more than one such that from him, but we are not; we believe conviction, so he makes sure that the persons in free enterprise. But the Minister should who are served have a proper means of look at this matter and see how we can identification. overcome it. It is a very vexed situation. There should be some means of identifica­ An investigation could benefit plaintiffs, tion here. If the hotels want to escape cer­ injured persons and the courts, and also tain responsibilities, at least they should answer the newspapers and others in this have a form on which a person could certify regard. that he or she was over 21 years of age. I think we should overhaul our laws in This would give hotels some measure of the licensing section. There is a need for protection. As it is, it is wide open. a new, tavern-type licence, a licence for The liquor laws have been prostituted in a hotel to provide accommodation and food, many ways. I do not think they have been and a special night-club licence. We talk sufficiently policed. These days it is possible about being a tourist city and State, yet to get liquor licences for balls and other in this regard we are outmoded by other functions. I believe this to be a step for­ places in the world. I think we should have ward to meet the needs of society in a mod­ various classes of restaurant licences where ern age, but 'at the same time there is ample some may have dancing and others not, evidence from what I have seen and have and our laws should provide for more wine been told that there is a great deal of and spirit licences and more outlets of a under-age drinking that is not being policed. retail nature. In Sydney and Melbourne there are fairly readily available retail out­ Mr. Bennett: Don't you think there are lets for wines and spirits, and I cannot more important things to be policed than see why Queensland people should be any that? different from people in the South in this regard. Why should there not be available Mr. HUGHES: It depends. We speak here, in a warmer climate and a greater about the decline in morals and the carnage tourist State, the same facilities as are avail­ on the roads. Statistics indicate the number of able in Sydney and Melbourne? people under 21 years of age who are killed and injured on the roads. We talk about Mr. Bennett: You ask the Licensing Corn­ the decline in moral standards. Does the mission and you will find out. You can­ hon. member not think that liquor is very not get wines and spirits up from South Australia. You have to prove there is the much the cause of some of these things? demand, but if you cannot get the product, Mr. Bennett: They send lads to Vietnam how can you prove demand? before they are 21. Supply [23 NOVEMBER) Supply 1929

Mr. HUGHES: If we have a law on our intelligent and efficient junior. I have noticed books, let us either respect it or do some­ however, in spite of what has been said by thing to change it. Let us amend the law various Government spokesmen from time to if it is outmoded and outdated. This is time, that they have not seen fit to put this where Parliament, in its wisdom, can act. qualified man into the position of Attorney­ That is the sort of thing for a law-reform General, but prefer to give that very oner­ society to consider. This is where we should ous, important and exacting portfolio to a seek the advice of persons engaged in youth mere medica. I am reminded by the hon. and other community work. Their views member for Barcoo, that he is ,a G.P'., and should be listened to. If it is necessary in not a specialist. the interests of the community to act, we Mr. Armstrong: Don't you think he is should act. doing a good job? (Time expired.) Mr. BENNETT: Who? Mr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) (7.47 p.m.): The hon. member for Kurilpa touched Mr. Armstrong: The Attorney-General. on a subject that has engaged my attention over the years. No doubt the licensing squad Mr. BENNETT: He makes many promises. is composed of very vigilant police officers If he did everything he says he will do he who are efficient as detectives, but in my would be an outstanding Attorney-General. opinion they could well be employed investi­ The only trouble is that he does not do all gating major crimes in this city rather than these things. The hon. member can ask worrying whether 19 or 20-year-old boys various members of the judiciary about him. have had one or two beers. After all, at They say, "He is a nice fellow; it is good that age they are old enough to go overseas to have a drink with him; it is good to go and sacrifice their lives, and we are giving to a social with him; it is good to be in his them the capacity of testamentary disposi­ private office and it is good to hear the tion, in other words, the right to make a .promises he makes, but it is very disappoint­ Ing to see that he does not carry out all his will. We give them man-sized tasks to promises." perform. I do not think one or two beers does them any harm at all. If, of course, . Mr. Armstrong: You are only looking at other results follow, as they can with all age It from your own narrow viewpoint. groups right up to the seventies and eighties --even in the ranks of Cabinet Ministers Mr. BENNETT: I am not. I am looking when they imbibe to excess-appropriate at it from the viewpoint of the citizens of action should be taken to insist on their Queensland-from the concept of British complying with our standards of conduct justice. Any judge will say, as Judge according to adult concepts. Moynahan did only a few months ago-and as I have said in this Chamber-that con­ Mr. Hughes: What do you think should ditions in the District Court are scandalous be the permissible age for a person to drink? at pr~se~t. Peo~l~ have been waiting trial­ Mr. BENNETI: I certainly think it langmshmg, waiting for their trial-since should be permissible for a person to drink March of this year, and some will be lucky at 18. My boy is 19 and I let him have a to stand trial before Christmas. beer or two on suitable occasions. I have Mr. Armstrong: You like deferring them. never seen him react in any unusual or abnormal way. I hope that as he grows Mr. BENNETT: At one time the Govern­ older he will not be like some of the bodgie ment members say that I am making big types we see in their middle age. money from the law, and at other times Mr. Hughes: You have reason to be they say I like deferring trials. We do not proud of your family. get paid by deferring trials; we have to be in court to earn our fees. It is stupid and Mr. BENNETI: Thank you. I believe that ludicrous to say that we like deferring them, young men should be allowed to grow up as unless we like losing money. If the hon. adults in a proper fashion, rather than member were Attorney-General he would sneak around the back somewhere to have a probably make as big a botch of it as the sly drink, which most boys will do if they Minister for Labour and Tourism makes of want to. It is just like having a forbidden his department. smoke. I believe in treating them as men, Away back in 1965 the matter of law but they should be castigated if they trans­ reform was raised by me in this Chamber. gress the strict moral concepts-not the I happen to have the "Hansard" reference artificial standards set by humans, which of 7 September, 1965, with me. At page differ State by State and country by country. 307, I said- I do not propose to dwell on that sub­ "If we wish to preserve our concept of ject this evening because I was rather British justice by the passage of correct amused-refreshingly amused-to see the legislation, there should be a permanent loyalty of Opposition members and Govern­ law reform commission of at least three ment members to my colleague, the hon. members, and possibly five, presided over member for Windsor. I am very pleased to by a judge of the Supreme Court who see that because he is a very receptive, will be free from political interference." 1930 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

I said that in 1965, on 7 September-just on and scurrilous suggestion of the Minister two years ago-but in the last fortnight for Labour and Tourism. I was in court certain people, who do not attend this trying to help a poor individual who is House regularly, have acclaimed it as a new languishing in gaol. I believe him to be concept. completely not guilty. But he will have Mr. Porter: It went through the Liberal to stay in gaol over Christmas and be Convention in 1964. tried not before 15 January, 1968. If anyone is entitled to an apology, surely Mr. BENNETT: It went through the I am. If the Minister understands the A.L.P. Convention much earlier, as did legal meaning and necessity of helping the aid, which I was the one to raise here. I unfortunate in the community, if he has raised that on 20 August last year, and I a sense of self respect, and if he has any have continued to do so. Long before it intestinal fortitude or guts, which I doubt, was raised by the hon. member for Windsor he will stand up tomorrow morning and I suggested a legal aid scheme. I am not apologise for what he said today. If this trying to deride or denigrate his energies in State had a proper and adequate system that direction and, I suppose, I should feel of legal aid, I could have been in the flattered, because the copying of a man's Chamber this morning. But because it fails submissions is the highest form of flattery. in that regard, in spite of my protestations Indeed, I should be truly proud that the over the years, I could not be present this hon. member for Windsor continues to echo morning. I hope my protestations will not and re-echo the submissions I made initially continue to fall on deaf ears and that the in this Parliament. Minister will provide an adequate system of legal aid in criminal cases in the lower Mr. Lickiss: You do not even believe that courts. The Public Defender is not allowed yourself. to practise in that field. The legal aid Mr. BENNETT: It is there in "Hansard" scheme as we know it applies only to civil for all to read. Twenty-five minutes is not actions. sufficient time in which to deal with the Mr. Smith: That is what I advocated. proof. I will certainly embark upon wider fields of law expansion so that, again, hon. Mr. BENNE'IT: The hon. member for members may follow me if they care to do Windsor may have advocated it. I wish so. Provided the law is amended to suit he would speak more strongly to his Minister my submissions I do not care who gets the and Cabinet in their party meetings because credit for it. It is rather significant that on it is obvious they do not take any notice this evening we should be discussing legal of him in Parliament. Perhaps the hon. aid because when I first submitted that an member would like me to do a little lobbying adequate legal aid scheme should be imple­ for him to get the numbers and then to mented in this State I pointed out that in prepare a submission for him to put before a practic<:l fashion I was the only legal-aid Cabinet so that he could persuade the operator m Queensland and, in the main I Minister, by weight of numbers, to provide continue to be. ' legal aid in the Magistrates Court. It was rather distressing for me to be Mr. Armstrong interjected. told on my arrival back in the Chamber and to read in the "Telegraph", that whil~ Mr. BENNE'IT: He could get a few I was absent for a short while this morning junior briefs if he behaves himself. I am the Minister for Labour and Tourism made not trying to deride the hon. member for some adverse references to my absence. In Windsor. I respect the efforts he has made. fact I was helping this State's deficient But I am a little disappointed at the legal aid scheme by trying to prevent a exaggerated and untruthful encomiums that man from being kept in Boggo Road over are given from time to time without regard Christmas. That is what I was doing. to fairness or credit where it is due. Mr. Davies: And where is the Minister The Bar Association of Queensland has tonight? given serious consideration to legal aid in criminal cases because of an advertisement Mr. BENNETT: He is never here at night­ that appeared in the Government Gazette time. He crawls into the Chamber in the calling for more public defenders. This has morning and scurries away in the fashion we alarmed me and, I expect, some of my know only too well. However, that is what colleagues. As a result of the discussions I was doing this morning. I was appearing with them a special meeting of the whole in the Magistrates Court, in the criminal Bar Association was called at which concern field, which is not covered in any manner and alarm were expressed at the proposal or fashion by any legal aid system in this to be given effect to by the Minister. State. There I was trying to help this As a result of that meeting, a special com­ man get out of gaol before Christmas. mittee was appointed to consider a reformed Unfortunately, again due to the deficiencies system of legal aid in this State, and the of the legal system in this State, he cannot committee has committed its recommenda­ be tried at the District Court before tions to writing. They have been published 15 January next year. Far from continuing in "The Australian Bar Gazette," and I cer­ to celebrate my 25th wedding anniversary tainly hope that the Minister will pay close today, I have to put up with this untruthful attention to them. Time will not permit Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1931

me this evening to go into all aspects of It has been decided by the Committee of the matter, but some of the important things the Bar Association- that were considered by the committee will "(a) That the Bar cannot accept as be referred to by me. consistent with the principles of British justice any system of legal aid in criminal The committee came to the conclusion matters which has the effect of leaving a that the independence of the Bar is a sub­ major portion of criminal defence work stantial safeguard of personal liberty, and to be performed by officers in the Crown that this safeguard ought not to be service. diminished by calling upon officers of a "(b) That so far as possible consistently department of Government which is charged with the community's resources, legal with the duty of prosecuting to provide defence should be available for all those defences for those being prosecuted. In who are committed for trial on indictable effect, they are taking exception and objec­ offences and who cannot reasonably be tion to the fact that the Solicitor-General, expected to provide for their own defence. who controls the prosecutors in court, would also control counsel appearing as public "(c) That any system of legal aid must defenders. The Solicitor-General at the provide for the proper preparation of the moment happens to be Bill Ryan and, of case for trial and ought to provide some course, no personal attack is being made choice of counsel for the accused person. on him, but the fact is that both prosecuting "(d) That in appropriate cases legal aid and defending counsel would be members should extend to representation of a con­ of his staff, and obviously would have to do victed person before an appeal court. as they were told. If the authorities-not "(e) That no limitation of expense is necessarily Mr. Ryan but any Solicitor­ justifiable if it precludes the achieving of General in time to come-decided that a these results but that, provided those man was guilty, the public defender results can be achieved, it ought to be as employed by the same boss who put up a economic as possible." stout, courageous and independent defence As one learned judge, the former Senior for the accused, could be castigated, or his Puisne Judge, the late Sir Roslyn Philp, once progress through the department could even said, "Justice is priceless". be prejudiced. Because of the proposed rearrangement in Sir Owen Dixon said- the Crown Law Office and the Public Defen­ "But because it is the duty of the der's Office, additional staff had to be barrister to stand between the subject and appointed. This necessitated an additional outlay of about $20,000 a year, which the Crown, and between the rich and included salaries of $6,700 per annum, plus the poor, the powerful and the weak, it is equipment, desks, telephones, library facili­ necessary that while the Bar occupies an ties and other associated amenities. The essential part in the administration of cost of the work that will be done by the justice, the barrister should be completely additional staff of the Public Defender's independent and work entirely as an Office, which is frowned upon by the Bar individual, drawing on his own resources Association and by all independent barristers of learning, ability and intelligence, and in this State, will be $6,185.60, according owing allegiance to none." to the figures tabled in this Chamber, and that work is now being done by independent With all due respect to my colleague the members of the Bar. hon. member for Windsor, if he became There are various other recommendations, Attorney-Geneml~to be quite frank, I think one of which is that no person subject to he should-he would have to implement that the provisions of the Public Service Act principle, and he would not insist that any would be required or asked to act as counsel barrister, particularly a defence counsel, be for an accused person, and I hope that the subject to the dictates of a public servant. I Minister will study them carefully. say that Mr. Morrie Nolan, who is the best If a law revision commission is appointed public defender that Queensland has ever -I hope it will be-it should consider a had-conscientious, sincere, efficient, hard­ number of points. The first one would be working and an outstanding criminal the preparation of a draft Bill and a set lawyer-is handicapped by the strings of the of rules-- Public Service. As proof of that, we have Mr. Smith: The Acting Premier made a only to recall his recent embarrassment when Press statement on this today. he was subpoenaed to give evidence at a Public Service appeal in which even the Mr. BENNEIT: I am making my state­ colour question was introduced. I feel sure ment on it now. It should prepare a draft that it was not introduced by Mr. Nolan. Bill and a set of rules to modernise court procedures in general accord with the report Mr. Smith: There was no colour question. prepared by a subcommittee and approved in principle by the committee-that is, a Mr. BENNEIT: The hon. member for subcommittee should be appointed first. It Windsor is getting a little sensitive about should review all Imperial Acts in force in that, because he appeared for the Public the State and endeavour to get a common Service Commissioner in that matter. rule according to evidence. 1932 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

In recent happenings-serious ones at that Mr. Murray: Is this not a matter of -this State departed from the true concept privilege rather than a matter for an of British justice. I did not think I would ombudsman? ever be called upon to argue this principle in the Queensland Parliament, but the State Mr. BENNETT: No, I think an ombuds­ recently deviated from the general standards man is badly and seriously required in this adopted in other States and allowed one State. Minister to be sacked on the uncorroborated Mr. Hughes: You are the ombudsman evidence of another Minister. I refer to in South Brisbane. the accusations made by the Minister for Labour and Tourism against the hon. member Mr. BENNETT: I am one of the greatest for Wavell. Therefore, when the law revision ombudsmen in this State, but I cannot do all commission is appointed, I seriously advocate jobs. I am running a more or less single­ that that case should come before it, to unit legal aid system: I am the ombudsman ensure the safety of one Minister against for Queensland. I had to travel to Cairns the maligning tongue of another Minister recently to see that justice was done. In who might be prepared to give evidence, addition to that, I have never missed an truthful or otherwise, against him in his opportunity to speak in this Chamber, and absence because he is anxious to jump over my record of attendance compares more than his shoulders and gain seniority in the Cab­ favourably with that of the Minister for inet, in the hope that the party to which he Labour and Tourism who is not here tonight. belongs will gain supremacy in the Country­ (Time expired.) Liberal coalition government. The Minister for Labour and Tourism was prepared to Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (8.12 p.m.): The manoeuvre and arrange that his colleague, hon. member for Baroona, who spoke earlier, who had been loyal to him in his absence said that the Department of Justice was by doing his work, should be sacked from vital to this State because it covers all the the Cabinet, and I believe that a law revision ramifications of justice. It is often said commission should prepare a set of rules that not only must justice be done, but it of law and procedure under which all parlia­ must be seen to be done. I think this is mentarians, particularly Ministers, should be equally true in the larger political entitled to protect themselves against the sense of the administration of the accusations of a malicious person who is Department of Justice. Not only must trying to climb over their shoulders purely the administration be well done but it for purposes of power, pomp and ceremony. must be seen to be well done, and, in sharp contrast with the hon. member for South The next submission that I wish to have Brisbane, I think that the Minister for Justice adopted in accordance with the principles that has very capably fulfilled both these criteria. I stated earlier is that, following the complete Mr. Bennett: You will admit he does not review of the Imperial Acts in force in this do as well as "Smithy" would. State, the commission should consider and review all local Acts with a view to their Mr. PORTER: Incidentally, I must say that re-enactment where necessary in modern the rather undignified antics of the hon. form, but retaining the existing spirit and member who just resumed his seat in intention of the present Acts. Much of endeavouring to scramble onto the band our legislation at present is couched in older wagon of law reform, capably introduced by phraseology and legal maxims that have since the hon. member for Windsor, will not failed to have the effect they had when deceive anybody. originally written into the Statutes. I wish to speak on one particular aspect of the Minister's department-the Electoral Mr. Smith: You want the Statutes to "get Office. Here we have a sub-department which with it"? Is that the idea? is indeed vitally important to the State because it provides the machinery which Mr. BENNETT: That is right, to use a serves the processes by which we are able modernism. I see my colleague is really in to keep our democratic Parliament operating. the jet age. The Electoral Office, like Lot's wife, must be My next point is that it should consider above suspicion. There was a time, as those whether a right of appeal should be granted who have been connected with politics for on decisions of administrative tribunals and a long time know, when this was not so, but officers and whether in this regard it might I venture to say that in the last decade not be desirable to appoint an ombudsman. It is one finger of suspicion could have been the policy of the Australian Labour Party to pointed at the Electoral Office. appoint an ombudsman and I feel quite sure Speaking about electoral machinery, I that if the Minister for Labour and Tourism want to deal with a subject which, although had to appear before an ombudsman on perhaps thorny, should be looked at and allegations he makes against genuine, decent discussed. It is the subject of redistribution. members of this Parliament, denigrating their This has been raised in this Assembly on character and ruining their reputations and other occasions. Hon. members opposite their family life, he would hesitate for fear have raised it, I think, but some of them the ombudsman might ask him to prove his have raised it in the hope that it will be allegations. used as a wedge between the coalition Supply [23 NOVEMBER) Supply 1933 partners some time in the future. I say to any Government to use redistribution in order them that there may be differences between to seek safety for sitting members-to make the coalition parties on redistribution-there safe seats safer. My mind goes back to are differences on many things-but the the 1948 Federal redistribution, when the task of being an effective coalition is to Labour Government in power did precisely resolve differences and I have no doubt what­ this. The result of the election, with the ever that this one will be resolved, as are swing of the pendulum slightly against it, many others. was totally disastrous. I think that in today's climate of political opinion, with the elector­ I suggest to hon. members opposite that ate now so volatile and so sophisticated if they believe they have cause to gleefully politically, we will all do much better to jeer and scoff at Government members play quite fair by the electorate and then because of the apparent trend of events, take our lumps as they come. I am sure particularly when redistribution comes that in both the short term and the long closer, perhaps in the next Parliament, in their own interests they will do well to term this will serve us better. review very soberly their own satisfaction. As I said, I am sure all will agree that at some time in the relatively near future These are not signs of trouble in the a redistribution is necessary. Government camp. They are only signs of strength, not weakness. They are signs that Mr. Bennett: Who do you think should the Government parties have been able to be the redistribution commissioner? adjust sensibly to changing times. That the Opposition has been unable to recognise Mr. PORTER: I do not want to talk what has been happening in this State is, about machinery matters. Let me establish I think, a clear sign of Labour's weakness, the point I am trying to make. and a measure of its classic incapacity to I want to make my position clear on this move with the times. matter. I believe in an electoral situation which equates with the Federal situation, I say in all seriousness and charity to that is, one quota with a margin of 20 per hon. members opposite, who think that every cent. up and 20 per cent down. When time some matter comes up in which the I say this, do not imagine that I coalition parties see things slightly differently look upon this as merely the one basic there is going to be trouble which will requirement. I hope to develop a theme enable them one day to secure the reins that I am sure will interest all hon. members of Government, if they do not quickly become who are involved with sparse, empty, large aware of today's political climate they can rural electorates. Figures have been given continue chuckling and jeering like idiot in this Chamber indicating imbalance between children while the real world passes them electorates at the moment on the basis of by. There are so many changes in the the three different quotas for each of the world today that those who are involved three zones we have. with politics would do well to make a very careful study of them. I will take one quota on the Federal basis. There are 78 electorates in this State. On I do not think that anybody doubts that the enrolment figures at the end of last year an electoral redistribution is needed some we would have a quota of 11,316. On the time in the relatively near future. I think basis of 20 per cent. above it would be the only question is: what is to be the 13,579, and on the basis of 20 per cent. method? Equally, I am sure that no-one below it would 9,053. We have already had in this or any other Parliament likes to see demonstrated to us that under our system electorates that are grossly unbalanced, one there are many electorates that are too far against the other. I think that is something below quota and many too far above quota. that all of us find some trouble in equating But even if we use as a pointer this system with our concepts of a reasonable, rational, of a single quota for all electorates, there is practical democracy. a very unsatisfactory state of imbalance. We must remember that since the last As a matter of fact, there are 36 elec­ State redistribution was made there have been torates above quota and 42 below, that that quite unique changes in population distribu­ is not very meaningful until we take the tion. There has been rapid development next step. That is, we take the electorates or urban areas which has not been paralleled that are in fact above the 20 per cent. extra in any other period of our history. The limit and the electorates that are below the result is that this has caused a disproportion 20 per cent. under mark. There are 20 and imbalance that I am sure very few electorates above the 20 per cent. permitted people could have foreseen. maximum, on the Federal basis, and there I speak, I hope, with some modest know­ are another 20 electorates below the 20 per ledge of redistribution. I would think that cent. As a matter of fact, if we had a in another capacity, I would perhaps have quota for the whole of the State at present, had more to do with redistribution over 50 per cent. of our electorates are both State and Federal than anybody beyond the gross maximums and minimums else in the Chamber. As a result that would be permitted. of many years of watching redistribution I should think it is plain for all to see I have come to one very firm con­ that on the normal rate of growth in some clusion, that is, that I think it is fatal for areas and the decline of population in others, 1934 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

by the time we reach the next State election in any way come out of the present salary it is likely that some 60 per cent. of elec­ and electorate allowances. This should be torates will be out of the maximum or a recompense whereby we try to make it as minimum kilter. easy for him to cover his electorate as it is On the basis I have indicated, whichever for a man in an urban area to cover his. way we look at it-three zones with three If there are other shortcomings, they should different quotas, or one quota with 20 per be found and provision made for them. cent. up and down-some time in the rela­ I believe that by this method parliament­ tively near future this Parliament will need ary democracy would be better served than to look at the question of electoral redistri­ by making electorates of highly unequal bution. When it comes, I suppose it must size that are always difficult to defend in mean, because of the changing population, political terms. I think it would make for far-reaching rearrangements. effective representation and that it is a I come back to the point I mentioned realistic way of enabling country members earlier and then passed over, that is, the who have these large electorates to discharge problem of those electorates which, because their proper duties. I would think that of our sparsity of population, must be large country members on both sides of the in area and which therefore create a great Chamber would at least see some merit in problem in terms of adequate representation. this proposal. There are, without doubt, disabilities in I hope that when eventually electoral these empty rural areas. Whatever the dis­ redistribution is being considered what I abilities are we must also balance them with have said might be taken into some small whatever advantages there are-and, in fact, account. As I say, it will help to achieve there are some advantages in remote rural better electoral arrangements and will areas which metropolitan or urban members enhance that vital electoral machinery on do not have. For instance, in nearly all which effective democratic government is rural electorates the member has access to based. I think it would appeal to the people a newspaper or radio station and is there­ of the State and that it would go a long way fore able to give himself an identity or towards reducing those difficulties that the individuality, which is very difficult for an coalition partners fear every time the subject urban member to achieve-very difficult of redistribution is mentioned. indeed. That is one small recompense-and The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. I admit it is a small one. Hodges): The hon. member for Green­ I think it has been part of our political slopes, Mr. Hooper. folklore to believe that rural advocacy becomes much more effective when there Mr. HOOPER (Greenslopes) (8.27 p.m.): are more parliamentary representatives. I rise to speak-- Those who work on the basis that this off­ Mr. Tucker: What is this-two speakers sets to some degree the democratic from the same side? imbalance believe that the end justifies the means. I am sure that whatever study has The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Only been made of Parliaments, State or Federal, one hon. member was on his feet, and I it would be difficult to find facts supporting called him. the theory that the larger quantity of rural Mr. Melloy: I was on my feet. You were members is important. having a conversation to your right. I think that members who have large, The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: The empty electorates to represent must have hon. member for Greenslopes. special provision made for them. I believe that the great problem is the time that must Mr. HOOPER: I rise to speak on the be consumed in travelling from centre to Estimates of the Department of Justice to centre, plus the physical toll that is made bring before the notice of the Committee a on a member and his inability to effectively matter which I believe should be aired in cover his area in the same way as a member Parliament. The matter was brought to my who has a small electorate. I think this can attention by a constituent of mine. In fair­ be overcome by providing some special ness to the Minister, in whom I have every type of assistance which is more effec­ confidence, I say ,that he did everything to tive in terms of serving democracy than assist with this problem-in fact, it was a carving up small electorates that will become matter completely out of his hands-and his progressively harder to defend as the years advice and 'assistance were deeply appre­ go by. ciated. I believe that the Government should To illustrate the point, I quote from a charter light aircraft for this purpose. I letter from this constituent as follows:- should like to see the Electoral Office make "! am enclosing an 'Analysis' of an a survey of these large areas. It could investigation that I did in relation to the designate large electoral areas-use what­ difference in remuneration paid to ever term we like-and determine a reason­ 'Articled Law Clerks' by various Law able number of charter flights that a mem­ firms in Brisbane, and a comparison of ber representing such an electorate is entitled the remuneration received by clerks in the to make each year and the mileage Jote can Oil Industry and Insurance Companies'' cover. This should be free. It should not and for that matter under other awards. Supply [23 NOVEMBER) Supply 1935

It continues- university internally part-time, doing three "It is obvious that some Law firms and sometimes only two subjects. The whilst paying what I understand is the holidays for the articled clerk in the Public 'award' are paying a 'pittance' and are in Service are up to eight weeks. In the oase of fact in this day using 'slave labour,' and Case B, the holidays are three weeks, plus it is for this reason that I am writing to three weeks' study leave if he is lucky. you to see if the position can be rectified I now move to Case C. This is a and those 'clerks who are on the mini­ 20-year-old clerk who receives $14 a week. mum' can be recompensed fairly and His hours are from 8.30 a.m. to 5.30 p.m., equally with their fellow clerks in other and he receives three weeks' holiday a professions. year but no time off for study. Let us look "Whilst my investigation has been very at the position of an 18-year-old clerk limited I have spoken to 'articled Clerks' employed by an insurance company. He who work in the country centres and with­ receives $36 a week and works from 9 a.m. out exception they too were receiving the to 5 p.m. He receives extra pay in line minimum pay. On the other hand there with the award and, if he is attending the are law firms who treat their 'Clerks' well, university, he is granted time off. by not only paying them equally as well as other Clerks in the community, but in A clerk in the oil industry receives $30 addition, allow them 3 weeks study leave a week. He works from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., prior to their University exams, but receives extra pay in line with the award also three weeks holiday. Of course some and is given time off with pay for attending clerks get no study leave, and if they need lectures. The accountancy profession did time off to prepare, they take their holi­ have articled clerks, but that system ceased days. years ago. Accountancy clerks receive what is prescribed by the Clerks' A ward-State "By comparison Insurance Companies which I think is fair enough. I believe that look 'after their Clerks. If he is prepared articled clerks could well work under that to enrol at the University to do say Com­ award. merce, the Company will pay his Univer­ sity fees and books each year that he It will be noted that whilst Case A, the passes, and also give him an increase in Government employee, receives a reasonable pay of $200 per annum. salary, Cases B and C are paid mere pittances "Oil Companies initial pay is not quite by solicitors in private practice. In Case D, as high as Insurance Companies, but they a private practitioner is paying more than too will pay books, and fees and give double the amounts paid to Cases B and C. time off on pay to attend day time lec­ That solicitor realises the worth of his clerk. tures. I understood that the minimum salary paid ''The articled law clerk is in an invidi­ an articled clerk was entirely the respon­ ous position as he has no one to fight his sibility of the law firm concerned. I made cause; for a boy to be 'articled', he is con­ a check and found that that is in fact the sidered lucky as the positions are rela­ position. The Council of the Law Society tively few. The take home pay of slightly of Queensland recommends the following over $13 a week will not keep the clerk minimum weekly payments:- in food, clothes and fares, and so the $ parents have to subsidise their sons to 1st year 14 learn their first year 'law.' The law pro­ 2nd year 16 fession is as wealthy as most other pro­ 3rd year 20 fessions today and if one firm can pay 24 decent wages then surely they all can." 4th year 5th year 30 I should now like to quote from an analysis and table dealing with Cases A, B, C, and D. What does the president of the Queensland I shall take Case A first. The gross weekly Law Society have to say about all this? pay of an articled clerk 19 years of age The Minister for Justice followed the matter employed in the Minister's department is up with the Queensland Law Society and $60 a week. passed on to me the information he received. In a letter to the Minister, the president Mr. Bennett: But he has to be a mate said- of the Minister's to get that. No-one else " I have perused the copies of the cor­ has a chance. respondence which was forwarded to me Mr. HOOPER: That is the amount received relating to observations on Articled by an articled clerk in the Public Service, Clerks' remuneration. There are a number irrespective of whether he works in the of comments which I am desirous of Minister's department. making thereon which I set out briefly as follows:-"- I shall now take Case B. This is a 19-year­ old clerk who receives $14 a week gross. ! ask hon. members to listen to this- He works from 8.40 a.m. to 5.30 p.m., "Most firms of solicitors take articled whereas in the Public Service the hours are clerks solely out of a sense of duty 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Both Cases A and B and because they feel they have an obliga­ have occasionally to work at night and on tion to assist in the training of law Saturday mornings, and both attend the students. They find that an ordinary clerk 1936 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

is of more value to them because that In other words, solicitors consider that an clerk can devote the whole of his time and articled clerk is not as good as an ordinary effort during normal office hours to his clerk. office work and is not distracted by lectures, The president then says in his letter- study and other University activities. "The Council feels that it is essential Similarly, such clerk does not request that an intending solicitor should spend time off for lectures or for examinations. some time in a solicitor's office before he "Students are taken into solicitors' is qualified to act as a solicitor in of their training, and at practice. I think it could be con­ the time discussions are taking sidered that the majority of the members place between the Society and the Uni­ of the profession consider that at least to arrive at a course which is three years' articles are essential. •'-''-~+~··" both to the University and to "A master has not the right to terminate the profession. Solicitors at present are Articles of Clerkship except in PYrPY1flrm~ very 'long suffering' as far as their and serious circumstances. In case articled clerks are concerned because of of all other employees any employer has the disruption of office routine the right to terminate services of unsuit­ owing the attendance of articled clerks able persons or ones with whose services at lectures. It is the wish of the Uni­ he desires to dispense. versity for part-time students to be given "It is not possible to compare the lectures commencing at 4 p.m. which employment of articled clerks in a solici­ necessitates the clerks leaving their city tor's office and the employment of clerks offices at 3.30 p.m. at the very latest in by Life Assurance and Oil Companies. order to reach St. Lucia in time for their Clerks in the latter category pursue Uni­ lectures. versity courses only in an incidental fashion "Articled clerks cannot work award outside office hours and such courses hours, so that they could not be paid do not form a fundamental part of the award wages. If an award wage were education required by them to qualify introduced for articled clerks the whole for a profession; furthermore, Life relationship between solicitors and articled Assurance and Oil Companies usually clerks would be affected and there would obtain benefits from their employees be a very real danger that solicitors would pursuing University courses and obtain­ give preference to ordinary clerks who ing degrees or diplomas. This benefit would not be absent from their offices seldom accrues to a master solicitor during working hours. as in the great majority of cases the "Most solicitors . . ."- employment of an articled clerk by his master solicitor terminates on admission I stress "Most solicitors"- to the profession." " ... give their articled clerks a minimum of approximately two weeks' leave from That is precisely my argument. Does it not their offices in order to study for their happen with any firm, whether it be an oil examinations in addition to the actual company, insurance company, or whatever days away from their offices when they it may be, that when an employee is granted time off for study to take degrees, etc., the undertake their examinations." moment the employee has completed his They are big-hearted. The letter continues­ studies he can leave? It is exactly the same "Articled clerks are of little value to thing; there is no difference. solicitors during the first part of their I point out that this submission by the training." president of the Law Society is utter rot I can think of many other people-appren­ and nothing else. He says this is not done tices and the like-who are in a similar in any other field of employer-employee relationships. We all know the position as category. It continues- it obtains with apprentices in this State. 'The University courses are so organ­ Let us look at trade apprentices only. For ised that considerable 'time off' is neces­ the information of the Committee, appren­ sary from their offices for lectures and tices in all trades where college courses are study. The University Law School is available are required to attend classes on re-arranging its time table next year and the following basis:- the profession has been advised that it First year-One full day a week on full will result in still greater periods of pay. absence from solicitors' offices. These absences for lectures, study and examina­ Second year-One full day a week on tions do cause considerable disruption in full pay. office routine. Articled clerks are called Third year-One full day a fortnight upon to undertake matters in the office on full pay. under the supervision of their masters That is all I am asking for on behalf of this who have to exercise more care over constituent, who I believe has a very just their clients' matters receiving attention case. He is in a section of the working by articled clerks than they would if community which I believe need not be paid they had solicitors or clerks engaged full the $14 recommended by the Law Society time in such activities." Council. His employer need not pay that Supply (23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1937 amount; he can pay any lesser amount Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) (8.45 p.m.): In the that he may decide upon. There is no presentation of his case for the articled clerk, award. It is entirely dependent on the good the hon. member for Greenslopes has pro­ graces of the employer. vided yet another argument in support of the claim by the Australian Labour Party that I have already quoted the position that this is a low-wage Government. It is little obtains in the State Public Service. I have use the hon. member's shedding crocodile here a brochure of study assistance in the tears on behalf of any section of employees Commonwealth Public Service. Under the if he is not prepared to use the influence heading of "Part-time Study" it says- he undoubtedly has to do something about it. "The Commonwealth Service now offers If he did not have such influence he would the most comprehensive range of assistance not the office of Chairman of Com- to young men and women who wish to mittees. is not the to do it; he undertake tertiary studies after leaving should do it in caucus. I say, his speech school. This covers both daytime release tonight substantiates our claim that this is from work to attend lectures and payment a low-wage Government. of fees." The hon. member for Toowong more or What do we find relative to the various less let the cat out of the bag on the salaries under this heading? I will deal relationship between the two Government with males only because that is all I have parties when he said that electoral redistri­ dealt with up to this stage. The salaries bution was a bone of contention between are- them. He made quite a point of saying that $ although there was a difference between the Under 18 years parties on the subject of redistribution, it was 29.56 rather a healthy thing that there should be At 18 years 34.50 that difference. He was endeavouring to At 19 years 39.51 make a virtue of necessity. This is the year I was dealing with and all I think this Government will be faced with that an articled clerk can hope for at that the task of solving the problem of redistri­ age is $14. I have no criticism of individual bution within the next few years when the solicitors, but I do criticise the method and disparity between country and provincial the system under which articled clerks are seats and city seats becomes more pro­ employed and the way their salaries are paid. nounced. I have no doubt that when that time arrives the Government will call upon Mr. Mann: You are criticising your own the services of someone like Sir Thomas Government. Playford, to whom I might refer as the "peer of distributors". It is not that I think the Mr. HOOPER: This is something that I Government will need much assistance in want brought before this Committee. I this direction. It is already well "oiled up" believe it is a just case and one that needs looking into. The Minister has done every­ on the process to be adopted in favouring thing he can to bring this to the surface its own parties in a redistribution. and to assist in getting some justice for It is obvious, with this proposal coming these young men. After all, why should' we from a Liberal member, that Liberal Party not attract young men from any home in members are very perturbed at the fact that the community so that any person, irrespec­ today they have to obtain so many more tive of his status in the community, might votes to return a member than their Country allow his son to become an articled clerk Party cohorts. They see a redistribution as a and eventually a solicitor? means of getting their claws into some of Mr. Bemrett: Prepare a case for the the country areas and eliminating Country Industrial Commission. Party members. The Liberals realise, of course, that in Country Party representation Mr. HOOPER: That might be a very good of provincial towns and cities those members idea, too. are representing areas which, to a large degree, are commercial and industrial The old idea of having to buy a privilege centres which do not present a measure of is gone. So many things were a privilege. safe occupancy for Country Party members. Nurses used to get half-a-crown because it Therefore, the sooner the Liberals can get was a privilege to be a trained nurse. This control of those electorates, the better it will occurred in very many professions. be for them so that they can assume what they consider to be their rightful place as Mr. Mann: This is nothing to do with the the major party in this Parliament. I do not Department of Justice. think they see the possibility or desirability Mr. HOOPER: It has a lot to do with of a coalition Government in the future. the Department of Justice. If law does not Their main objective is to destroy the Country come under the jurisdiction of the Depart­ Party and to govern in their own right. ment of Justice, where does it lie? All I I wish to say a few words about the office ask is that the Minister continue to use of the Electoral Registrar. When the hon. every effort possible to achieve some form member for Toowong rose I thought he of justice for articled clerks who are had been looking over my shoulder but he employed by private firms of solicitors. did not deal with the matters I prbpose to 1938 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply

deal with. I would say that the State rolls the Federal authorities, to check the rolls. are not reliable. That is not the fault of the It should not be left to the whim of the Principal Electoral Officer or any of his local policeman. staff. One has only to visit the State Mr. Mann: The Commonwealth Govern­ Electoral Office a few times to realise that ment gets the security people to do it. the staff is very busy. Any faults in the rolls cannot be attributed to them. The trouble Mr. MELLOY: Somebody other than is mainly that the checking of rolls is left police officers should do it. People do not to the Police Force. As the Police Force is like police officers going into their homes. already understaffed and overworked, it is It is not a policeman's job. It should be not hard to realise why the checking of the done by the Electoral Office staff. rolls cannot be thorough and why it can be carried out only at irregular intervals. As the hon. member for Townsville North pointed out, under the Commonwealth elec­ When policemen check the rolls they really toral system a regular and constant check make only a cursory check. They do not is made of the rolls, which means that they have the time to make a house-to-house are in a much better condition than the check of house occupancy; they rely on State rolls. If the Government is not pre­ information given to them. They may call on pared to have a check made by employees two or three houses in one street to check of the Electoral Office, it must consider on whether anybody has left any of the having joint Federal and State rolls. This other houses. They do not have sufficient is the procedure adopted in all other States time to go into every house and check the of Australia with the exception of Western rolls thoroughly. That is why, election after Australia. From what I have been told by election, so many people are refused votes Federal electoral officers, these checks are on the ground that they are not enrolled. very efficient. They eliminate a good deal Although they still reside in the homes in of work and produce much more accurate which they have lived for years, because and reliable rolls. of the procedure necessarily adopted-the cursory checking of residences-they are This involves the use of subdivisional rolls eliminated from the roll even though they in State electorates where subdivisions of may only have been absent on holidays. Federal electorates impinge on State elec­ People may be away on holidays for three toral boundaries. But even this appears to weeks and a policeman may ask someone present no difficulty in the other States. If in the street if they still live in a certain this is considered favourably by the Govern­ house. He may be told, "They have been ment we will have much better rolls and away for about three weeks now". He will not again have the spectacle of people interprets that as meaning that they have who want to vote at a polling booth being left that address permanently and recom­ told that they are not enrolled. I know that mends the lodgment of an objection to their they can still vote, but this creates a good enrolment. deal of extra work for the returning officer. The Electoral Office issues a notification They are the only comments I wish to stating that an objection has been lodged to make on these Estimates. their enrolment, but many people do not bother to answer it. That may be their fault, Mr. W. D. HEWITT (Chatsworth) (8.58 but I do not think it is the responsibility of p.m.): There are three or four small matters any person to ensure that his name is kept of Justice administration that I want to dis­ on the roll. The normal citizen discharges cuss tonight. The first is the registration of his enrolment duty when he completes the business names. My understanding of the necessary form and secures enrolment. machinery of this matter is that if a person It is not right that any electoral officer has a legitimate business trading name he should remove a name from the roll before may register it by paying an annual regis­ making a thorough check to ensure that the tration fee and thus ensure that he has the person concerned has left the area. That exclusive use of that name. This obviously is why so many people are issued with protects him and prevents others using the summonses for failing to vote-simply same name and exploiting the goodwill that because a proper check has not been made. has been attracted to it in the course of The names of many people who leave an trading. From this point of view I think it electorate still appear on the roll and at is useful that there should be registration election time they do not appear as having of business names, and I support such voted. They may be living in New South machinery to the utmost. Wales or in some other part of Australia. Unfortunately, however, people can regis­ Eventually the Electoral Office checks and, ter a name such as "Nobody Beats Our in the absence of a reply, issues a summons. Deal". It would appear that a competitor That takes up a tremendous amount of the can then not use that phrase. I do not think time of the Electoral Office staff. It would this was the intention when the Act was not be necessary if a proper and adequate passed. I do not carry a brief for any check was made to ensure the accuracy of electrical retailer. In point of fact, I am the rolls. critical of the type of electrical retailing that Regular and efficient checks should be we see these days. The nonsense of trade­ made by employees of the Electoral Office. ins and the nonsense of gigantic write-offs People should be employed, as they are by and amounts allowed for cash are not only Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1939 an insult to our good sense but are also a names beginning with the prefixes "M" and ridiculous flouting of good trading principles. "Me" are filed as if spelt "Mac" because Therefore, I say that the sooner we intro­ they are so pronounced. That rule applies duce sensible amendments to the Sale of to telephone directories in all capital cities, Goods Act to curtail this nonsensical form and it certainly applies to the Federal electoral of trading the better. rolls. On turning to the State rolls, we find an Having said that, I return to people being interesting situation. At the beginning of allowed to register the words "Nobody Beats the "M" section is found a name beginning Our Deal". The farcical position is reached "Mac". We then proceed through "Ma", in which such a person's deal may be "Me" "Mi" "Mo" and "Mu" and at the the second best, or the second worst, in very back V:e find .;Me" appearing again. town, but no-one else can say, "Nobody beats our deal" because he, to the exclusion Mr. Porter: An insult to the Scots. of all others, has registered that phrase. This produces a ridiculous situation, and I Mr. W. D. HEWIIT: The hon. member do not think that was the intention of for Toowong says it is an insult to the the Act. I can see no merit at all in Scots. I do not think it is an insult to allowing people to register words such as anyone, really; it is simply a matter that those which are not their trade name. should be put right. Under the rules adopted I therefore hope that the Minister will look in the compilation of Commonwealth electoral at the matter critically with a desire to rolls and telephone books, and the rules of introduce amendments if he deems them cataloguing, one should be able to expect necessary. I personally think they are, to find names beginning with "Me" and because the present situation is attracting "Mac" grouped together. That is not so ridicule of the Act. in the State electoral roll, and I think it would be a very simple matter to adjust. I was pleased in the latter part of the Again I hope that the Minister :vm C

position of the names of candidates is deter­ to finalise these cases before the close-down. mined by draw. In a State election the There are 200 civil cases awaiting trial of names of candidates 'appear on the ballot which 42 have been entered for trial. This paper in alphabetical order. and the poor will give hon. members an idea of the sort fellow whose name begins with "Z" and who of thing that happens: of the 42 cases entered contests a seat will always find his name at for trial, 27 were matrimonial cases which the bottom. It was to avoid this eventuality were not ready for trial at the recent call­ that the position of the names was deter­ over and had to be deferred until next year. mined by draw. When the ballot paper for I am not casting stones at anyone but merely the Senate was laid out alphabetically there giving an explanation of at least one of was the famous instance in which the the factors that cause or add to the bank-up. Labour Party put up a team of candidates each of whose names began with "A". In the District Court, as of today, 63 Mr. Murray: Aarons to Abrahams. criminal cases were awaiting trial, and some, at least, of these persons were committed Mr. W. D. HEWITT: I do not think they to the present sittings by stipendiary magis­ were Jewish gentlemen, but that did happen trates, so that their cases are very recent. on one occasion. As the suggestion has the In civil jurisdiction 878 cases await trial. support of the Country Party conference, I I make that revelation quite openly, and I think it deserves consideration and I place it am quite concerned, about it, as I have been on the Minister's desk as additional home­ for some time, but whereas I had a margin work. of power, by numbers, to appoint new Supreme Court judges-! appointed two and The matters to which I have referred are still have one up my sleeve-the number only small. but I think each 'and every one of appointments allowed under the District of them deserves consideration. Court Act had already been made and, until Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen­ an amendment of the Act is brought down Minister for Justice) (9.8 p.m.): I congratu­ to extend my capacity to appoint, my hands late the members of the Committee who are tied. have taken part in the debate on the very The legal members of this Committee will sensible and calm way in which they have probably know that, over a period of years, approached the Estimates. The debate has many submissions have been made by various been very instructive, because all hon. bodies for amendment of the District Court members have raised matters of inter­ Act. They gradually accumulate, of course, est and most have put forward ideas on and, rather than tinker with the Act and which I can comment. make just a few amendments, I decided I also say "Thank you" to those hon. to have the District Court Act completely members who were kind enough to pay re-written. I called for the assistance of the tribute to me, and I accept the criticism . of Bar Association. Its members have to con­ those who perhaps think that I am not domg sider all features and how they should be a good job. covered. I asked them to prepare a draft of their ideas. That was in November, 1966. Mr. Bennett: Are you trying to give us For one reason or another that draft was not an anaesthetic now? ready until a couple of months ago. As Dr. DELAMOTHE: No; I can give it, quickly as possible the Bill was examined, and I can take it. I understand that some printed, and put on the Business Sheet. hon. members commented on the fact that From November to December I would have as 'a doctor I am a good Attorney-General. liked over and over again to appoint extra judge to the District Court. Under the The hon. member for Townsville North old Act I had no power to appoint acting raised a very important question, namely, _the judges, which would have helped to solve pile-up of work in the courts at Townsvrlle. the problem. Under the proposed Bill I The hon. member for South Brisbane also have that power, and I intend to use it spoke about the accumulation of work in the to cut this backlog not only in Brisbane but District Courts here. Because of the fact elsewhere. In Townsville 93 civil cases that I was able to appoint extra judges to await hearing; 40 in Mt. Isa; 16 in Innis­ the Supreme Court, the backlog there is fail; 11 in Bowen; one in Hughenden; three virtually non-existent. in Mackay; four in Charters Towers; 71 Mr. Bennett: Plus the fact that you in Cairns. Obviously some assistance has extended the financial jurisdiction of the Dis­ to be given so that the problem can be trict Court. overcome. Dr. DELAMOTHE: That is true. Mr. Hanlon: Will you be in a position In the Supreme Court in Brisbane, as of to appoint judges as soon as you get the today, six people are awaiting trial in the Bill through? sittings which commenced on 20 November, and I am assured that all cases will be com­ Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. I hope that pleted by 11 December which is the closing­ they will start work and carry on work down date. One judge is sitting, and arrange­ during the normal stand-down. ments have been made for a second judge to sit in criminal jurisdiction, if necessary, Mr. Mann: Can you appoint judges? Supply [23 NOVEMBER] Supply 1941

Dr. DELAMOTHE: Only the Attorney­ indicated in my answer the other morning, General can appoint judges. this matter has been under constant review, but up to date I have been unable to get Mr. Bennett: Is it true that you are going the necessary money to establish a permanent to appoint Lloyd Martin, the Chief Crown law reform commission. I do not think it Prosecutor? would be worth while to attack this matter Dr. DELAMOTHE: I make no promises piecemeal. If we are to have a law reform that I do not keep. commission let us have a properly constituted one. It will cost money, but when I get the The hon. member for Townsville North money from the Treasurer I will not be asked why Mr. McMillen's name still behind-hand in putting it into operation. appeared on the payroll of the Department of Justice. Mr. McMillen ceased, by retire­ The hon. member for Windsor referred to ment, his occupation as Registrar of Titles different interpretations and meanings of the on 30 June last. With Cabinet's permis­ word "permit". I believe that lawyers make sion I kept him on as personal adviser their living by disagreeing on the interpre­ to me in the Department of Justice for a tation and meaning of words. period of six months which will expire on 31 December. He has no contact at Mr. Bennett: I must concede that Professor all with the Titles Office. He was kept Sykes did not read the definition section of on for the specific purpose of completing the Traffic Act. certain investigations and recommendations that were less than half-completed when he Dr. DELAMOTHE: You are concedjng retired. Much of the information he had that? collected was obtained, by necessity, from the Titles Offices in other States. I believe Mr. Bennett: Yes. that it would have been quite foolish of Dr. DELAMOTHE: On the interpretation me to say to him at 30 June last, "Despite of particular words I need go no further all this work you have done you are than section 92 which says that trade, going home, and you will not come back commerce and intercourse among the States again." I would have had to use the time shall be free. There have been more Privy of the new Registrar-General, at quite some Council cases on the meaning of the word expense, to go over ground that had already "free" than on any other set of circumstances. been traversed by Mr. McMillen, at a time when the new Registrar-General had just The hon. member for Windsor raised taken over, by promotion, this very important several other matters of importance. One job. I make no apologies for keeping Mr. related to hearsay evidence on which I am McMillen on to complete the task in which getting various opinions at the moment. It is he was engaged at the date of his retire­ amazing how opinions differ. He also spoke ment. of husband-and-wife torts. That is another matter which the Treasurer and I are looking Mr. Tucker: Has that to do with the into because it concerns him as well as me. T i ties Office? The hon. member also spoke about negli­ Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. The main matter gence, and I should like to say a few quick is the introduction of the use of the micro­ words about that point. One of the causes wave camera in the new titles set-up. He of the tremendous pile-up of cases in the was engaged also on producing some material District Court is the number of what are in substitution of the old system of titles. known as running-down cases. The judges He will complete that work by 31 December inform me that they represent 80 per cent. at the end of his special extension of six of the accumulation. months. I believe. the money spent in Mr. Bennett: Eighty per cent. of cases keeping him on will be money well spent. anywhere are car cases. The hon. member for Townsville North Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. That is not referred to the letter written to me by the North Queensland Law Society. Since that germane only to Queensland; it concerns all letter was written, Mr. Westaway, the Presi­ the States in the Commonwealth and all dent, has been down here and as a result of the countries of the world. Certainly we have the information he acquired from the Law a big accumulation of cases in our courts, Society relative to the District Court Act, but the New South Wales figures are before he saw me, he went home quite appalling compared with ours. Western Aus­ happy. tralia has endeavoured to speed up the hearing of motor-car cases by appointing an The hon. member for Kurilpa gave an assessment tribunal. Once the question of adequate explanation of the use of police negligence is determined, at the appropriate in courts. I do not think I need add anything time the matter goes to the assessment further. tribunal. The hon. member for Windsor spoke I understand that South Australia has extensively about the need for a law reform appointed a new type of officer called the commission. The hon. member for South "master", whose office lies somewhere Brisbane joined in that discussion. I agree between that of the court registrar and a thoroughly with both hon. members. As judge. It is his job to chair a meeting 1942 Supply [ASSEMBLY] Supply between the opposing legal practitioners­ Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes, but in every it is compulsory there as it is in the Supreme case of apples there is always the one that Court here-and to fine down the issue to is specked. I wanted to say something be decided to the irreducible minimum. about that matter because it is very close to my heart and the solution must be found. Mr. Bennett: What do you think of the I have asked the Bar Association to have proposition of paying damages without a look at this question for me and to give proof of liability? me their ideas on how to solve this problem. Dr. DELAMOTHE: I intended to mention VOTES PASSED UNDER STANDING ORDER this matter. No. 307 AND SESSIONAL ORDER Another recent article by a prominent At 9.30 p.m., under Standing Order No. overseas law-maker suggested that the way 307 and Sessional Order agreed to by the to get around it would be to charge the insurance companies interest from the date House on 12 October, the questions for of the writ. As the hon. member for South the following Votes were put by the Chair­ Brisbane pointed out, in many cases the man and agreed to- delay is due to the insurance companies. Department of Justice- $ Mr. Smith: That is not quite right. Chief Office 792,410 Dr. DELAMOTHE: I am quoting what Balance of Department, the hon. member for South Brisbane said. Consolidated Revenue I am not quoting it as my opinion. and Trust and Special 5,554,949 It has been suggested in several quarters Funds that there should be something akin to Executive and Legislative, workers' compensation, called, for instance, Balance of Vote 532,690 accident compensation, so that if a man was knocked down and had his leg broken Premier and Department of he would qualify automatically, without any State Development 1,886,409 proof of negligence, for the amount of accident compensation laid down in the Act. The Treasurer 14,047,417 Mr. Sherrington: This would be without Department of Education 90,270,935 prejudice? Department of Industrial Dr. DELAMOTHE: Yes. It would not Development 710,222 interfere with his common-law right to sue for negligence. It would be the same as Department of Mines and the man who receives workers' compensa­ Main Roads 1,928,113 tion and retains his common-law right to Department of Primary sue the employer. Industries 5,358,480 Mr. Bennett: Don't you think there is much to commend that scheme? Department of Works and Housing 7,658,200 Dr. DELAMOTHE: I do. I am most con­ cerned, and have been for some time, at Department of the Auditor- the position of John Citizen who, for many General 474,984 and varied reasons-in some cases owing to Trust and Special Funds the ultra-conservatism of the medical people Estimates, Balance of concerned-although he will obviously Estimates 286,741,039 receive fairly large damages from third­ party insurance, has to wait three or four Loan Fund Account Esti­ years for it and during that time has to live mates, Balance of as a pauper and in poverty, depending on Estimates 57,589,000 the good graces of his friends and relatives and of the Department of Social Services. Supplementary Estimates I have searched the literature to see what (Consolidated Revenue), other countries and States are doing to find 1966-1967 8,327,464 the solution for John Citizen during the period he is waiting to get his just deserts. Supplementary Trust and Special Funds Estimates, Mr. Shenington: Then you get the case 1966-1967 5,320,798.82 where the legal representative fails to serve the writ in time and they miss out entirely. Supplementary Loan Fund Estimates, 1966-1967 4,496,519.31 Dr. DELAMOTHE: I would not criticise the legal representatives. I have a great Vote on Account, 1968-1969 125,000,000 deal to do with them. Resolutions reported, and ordered to be Mr. Sherrington: You know the case I received tomorrow. referred to you in which the women lost out completely. The House adjourned at 9.36 p.m.