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Vol. 713 Thursday No. 126 29 October 2009 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Questions Government: Debts Africa: Water Shortages Northern Ireland: Cross-Border Police Co-operation Territorial Army House of Lords: Code of Conduct Announcement Beverley Freemen Bill [HL] London Local Authorities Bill [HL] London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [HL] Transport for London (Supplemental Toll Provisions) Bill [HL] Carryover Motions Driving Instruction (Suspension and Exemption Powers) Bill Third Reading Coroners and Justice Bill Report (4th Day) Education (Special Educational Needs Co-ordinators) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2009 Motion to Approve Health: Medicines Question for Short Debate Grand Committee Company, Limited Liability Partnership and Business Names (Sensitive Words and Expressions) Regulations 2009 Company, Limited Liability Partnership and Business Names (Public Authorities) Regulations 2009 Legislative and Regulatory Reform (Regulatory Functions) (Amendment) Order 2009 Provision of Services Regulations 2009 Debated Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. 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All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 1265 Government: Debts[29 OCTOBER 2009] Government: Debts 1266 Lord Myners: The Government and HMRC are House of Lords committed to pursuing tax avoidance wherever they see evidence of that happening. We have been particularly Thursday, 29 October 2009. vigilant in our dealings with the banking sector in this respect because some of the most invidious forms of 11 am tax avoidance are those associated with, and perpetrated or facilitated by, major banks. We are also extremely Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds. alert to areas in which tax codes and rules can be improved in order to reduce the risk of unintended consequences. Government: Debts Question Baroness O’Cathain: My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the noble Lord, Lord Tomlinson, in 11.06 am trying to put all the blame on the corporate sector, is being quite unfair? An awful lot of people operating Asked By Lord James of Blackheath privately are avoiding and evading tax. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the total value of unpaid debts to the Government in Lord Myners: I agree that we all have a commitment the form of benefit overpayments and unrecovered to meet our tax obligations and it is a great tribute to tax; and what action they will take to recover those the vast majority of citizens and companies that they debts. pay their tax at the time when it is due without being pursued or putting additional burdens on the system. That is to be welcomed. However, a small number do The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury not and they should be pursued appropriately. (Lord Myners): My Lords, the value of unpaid tax debts is shown on page 96 of HMRC’s trust statement. Lord Newby: My Lords, no doubt the Minister is On 31 March 2009, the figure stood at £27.7 billion. aware that CPAG recently won a case in the Court of The value of benefit overpayments to be recovered, Appeal to the effect that the Department for Work as on 31 March 2009, is £1.8 billion, which the noble and Pensions could not recover overpayments of social Lord could have found on page 108 of the DWP’s security benefits through the courts where the claimant resource accounts. If people owe a debt to the Exchequer, was not at fault. Some 65,000 claimants received letters it should be paid. HMRC and the DWP can, do and saying that they would have to repay major overpayments. will continue vigorously to pursue those who can pay Can the Government give those people an assurance but will not. that they will now be written to again to tell them formally that they no longer have to pay back benefits Lord James of Blackheath: My Lords, I thank the that they were overpaid through no fault of their own? Minister for that response. He will agree that that is a very high proportion indeed of the national debt and, Lord Myners: If the judgment stands, there is no as he rightly says, if it is not paid the burden will further appeal and that is the outcome, the DWP will continue to fall on the responsible taxpayers who do of course recognise that and, I am sure, it would be the continue to discharge their debts. Is he aware of the department’s intention so to communicate. Government’s guidelines on government agencies’ debt recovery, particularly the section on the legal services Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, is not our 99 per framework, and will he say whether he considers those cent collection rate one of the highest, if not the guidelines still to be an adequate response to the need highest, in western Europe? for collection activity in an incisive manner? Lord Myners: I thank my noble friend for his question. I believe that the figure is very high, and as I said, it is Lord Myners: I am not intimately familiar with the high in comparison with my experience of the private document to which the noble Lord refers, but I shall sector. HMRC also works to understand the procedures put a copy alongside my bed tonight. What is more used by tax authorities elsewhere and is constantly reassuring is that HMRC collects all but 1 per cent of enhancing its methods, including in particular in terms tax due. Of the 1 per cent that is not collected, 90 per of communication and phased payment. It is a good cent is due to business insolvency.That is an extraordinarily record and one on which HMRC deserves to be good record of debt recovery, which most businesses congratulated. would find hard to match. Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, what is HMRC’s Lord Tomlinson: Does my noble friend agree that latest estimate of the size of the black economy, and the figures sought by the noble Lord, Lord James, how accurate does the Minister think that estimate were about known tax debt? Does he further agree may be? that the real problems that need to be addressed—I am sure they are receiving attention—are some of the Lord Myners: I do not have a figure to provide for corporate fiddles for evading taxation, such as transfer the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, but I will endeavour pricing, so that profits can be put into the most to find out from HMRC its current estimate and favourable tax domain even when they are earned in communicate with him in writing. There is an economy this country? which acts outside the formal economy with clear tax 1267 Government: Debts[LORDS] Africa: Water Shortages 1268 [LORD MYNERS] are working with a number of African countries to evasions as a consequence. We are much focused on improve water management. We will provide up to ensuring that we raise the appropriate rate of taxation 25 million people with drinking water over the next from all taxable activities. five years. Lord Peston: My Lords, is my noble friend willing Lord Hunt of Chesterton: My Lords, with water to comment on the fundamental issue here, which is shortages caused both by the effects of climate change that the benefit system is so complicated that you have and by population growth, as a recent conference of to be a genius in order to be able to fill in the forms, Africans in Cambridge pointed out, and being highly and increasingly the tax system is so complicated that variable across Africa, are Her Majesty’s Government you worry enormously about making mistakes because assisting each country in a focused way to establish its you are never clear about the right answers? Have we future water resources and policies? Will they ensure not spent years talking about simplification? The problem that there is adequate funding of technical support is that while we all say that it is a good thing, we never programmes by the Met Office and other UK agencies, do anything about it.