Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 14 OCTOBER 1924

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1526 Commonwealth, Etc., Taxes Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Central Sugar- },fills.

TUESDAY, 14 OCTOBER, 1924.

Th~ SPE,\KER (Hon. \Y. Bertram, Jim·eel;­ took the chair at 10 a.m.

APPROPRIATIO::\ BILL, Xo. 2.

AssE~T. The SPEAKER: I haYo to report that J h~ Ye pre cnt.cd to Hi J Excellency the Gon•rnor Appropriation Bill, Xo. 2 for tho Roval assent. and that His Excellencv was ple'U"cd. in m:v presence, to subscribe his asseJCt thereto in the name and on behalf of His ::\iajcsty. "'"-\. n1c -:·:;age was also receiYed from the GoYPrnor conn:ying His Excdknc/s a~sent to the Dill.

CE:'\TRAL SL'GAR-:C\IILLS.

Tlw SPEAKER announced the receipt from the Anrlitor·Gcncral of his report on the ncrounts of the c·_,ntral sugar-n1ill~ under Governnwnt control for the year ended 30th June, 1924. Questions. [14 OcTOBER.] Questions. 1527'

QCESTIO:\S. "2. Ticket No. 97536 was published in. AcDITOR-GEXER.\L's REPORT in re "D" IYHnT the · Telegraph' as a winner of a £20 PooL's CHARGES FOR HA:\DLIXG WHL\T prize. CRoP. '' 3. Yes. :\Ir. WARRE:\' (JJurrumba) asked the " 4. The official record shows that Secretary for ~c\griculturc- ticket No. 95736 won a £20 prize. The official r

d. " GoLnEx C-iSKET " PRizE IYixxERS. d. s. Fitters .,~ :Jj " ~k :\Ir. RODERTS (Ea.,t Toon·oomba), for 'I'~..rners :Jt :2k Binck"11 itlb 4:f ~ :3 -~ Hox. W. H. BAR::'\ES (1Fymwm), asked the Pattrrnm;Jker:.-- - ., qJ l-Ion1e Secr·etary- 5± ... Coppersmi1 Ls ~., 3! 2 3~ " 1. Does he know that on the evening .Anglcsmith~ H :3~ of Friday. 1st August, 1924, the 'Tele­ Brass filllfhers ~ 3} - ~£ Forgrrs (Forgli:~s)--:J cwt. ., graph' published ihc names of the prize anr} OH'l' 2 St JJ \\·inners in the 'Golden Casket ' ? Forucrs (~mallm')· :2 Gt ·> 4~ Spr.._ngsmith:: 41 ., ll " 2. Amongst the numbers of £20 prizes Oxy·rttt't~·lrne .md electric - ' ::'\o. 97536 \\as given. \Ye/dpr;.o; 2 5i ~ :? ·k Boiler1nnkrrs 2 31 :2 ~-k "3. Is it correct that the owner of this O:J ~ 2 :!7; ticket made application for the prize and Monlcl

The CHIEF SECRETARY (Hon. E. G. Theodore, Chillagoc) replied-

Advertising Hent, and Printing, Contingent Financial Y car. t;tationery, Bxpcnses in Total. and Promoting Incidentals. Bmhrration to- the State. ------~--

£ s. d. £ 8. d. £ s. (!. 1912-13 5,7:27 19 8 4,517 -1 () 10,24-5 ,, 8 1913-14 5,:]91 -! 8 f>,783 6 8 11,176 11 4 1914-13 7,8-±0 17 5 3,301 12 7 ll,U2 10 0 1918-19 9,280 11 9 377 18 9 9,658 10 6 1919-20 13, 75[1 18 8 995 4 5 1-t, 75;) "u 1 1920-21 9,-!53 1 10 665 11 11 10,118 18 9 1921-22 7,14-0 15 G 7, 1"!() li"> ;) 1922-23 7,197 6 11 7,H)7 6 11 1923-2-! 6,893 17 6 6.803 17 6

Cor-;TRAct· oF CLYDE E~WI::\EERI:\G Co1rPAXY The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS FOR SUPPLY OF RAILWAY Loc01IOTlVES. (Hon. W. McCormack, Cairns) replied- Mr. 11AXWELL (Toowong), without " It is proposed to abandon all that noti0 , asked the Secretary for Raihvays- portion of the fence that serves no useful purpose." " Is it a fact, ail reported in last Sunday's ' Sun ' newspaper, of the 12th PAPERS. instant, that the Clyde Engineering The following papers were laid on the Company, Kew South \Vales, had table, and ordered to be printed:- deciined to accent the contract for build­ ing thirty locorrwtives, and that it was Report of the Insp'ector of Hospitals for the Government's int "ntion to distribute the Insane for 1923. the work between \Yalkers Limited and Regulation 2 of the regulations made E,·ans. Anderson, Phelan, and Com­ under the Primary Products Pools pany?" Acts, 1922 to 1923. The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS Eighth annual report of the State -{Hon. J. Larcombe, J( cppel) replied- Go;-ernment Insurance Office for the year ended 30th June, 1924. " I have no information to add to what I gave the House last Friday, to the effeet that the Government had entered ExrE~DITcRE oF AGENT-GEXERAL's OFFICE FOR into a contract with the Clyde Engineer­ " CO:.\TINGENCIES " AXD " INCIDEXTALS." ing ·works, Kew South Wales, for the Tho following paper was laid on the construction of thirtv locomotives. The table:- Government have no" information to the Return in answer to a question asked b,v effect that that contract 1s to be Mr. Deacon (Cunninglwm) on Thurs­ repudiated." day, 9th October, relative to the Brisbane BRISBA:-\E TRAl\1\Y.\Y TRCST ACT Sick Children's Hospital Committee bv AMEXD::V!l':XT BILL. the hon. member for Port Curtis" · INITIATIO:l!. "If not, will he ask for an immediate reply to his inquiry?" Th0 H01\IE SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stopford, Jlount Jforgan): I beg to move-- The H0::\1E SECRETARY (Hon. J. "That the House "-ill. at its next Stop ford, 3£ aunt JI or(Jan) replied- sitting, resolve itsr!f into a Con1mittee " Xo. I have even· confidence that the of the \Vholc to consider of the desirable­ committee will send· me the information Pess of introducing a Bill to amend the as soon as the:; are in a position to do Brisbane Tramwav Trust Act of 1922 in so." a certain particul"ar." Question put and passed. ABAXDO::\MENT OF BouNDARY RABBIT-PROOF FE}JCE. INCQ}1E TAX DILL. Mr. MOORE (:1ubi(JnJ!), without notice, :

of tho Whole to consider of the desirable­ A:::\UIALS A;'\D BIRDS ACT AME~D­ ness of introducing a Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to the imposi­ ME:t\T BILL. tiOn. assessment, and collection of a tax THIRD RE.\DING. upon incomes." The SECRETARY FOR AGRICuLTURE :Question put and passed. (Hon. W. :t\. Gillies, Eacham): I beg to move- " That the Bill be now read a third APPREXTIGESHIP BILL. tin1e." THIRD READI;.;c. Mr. ::\IOORE (A1lbiuny): I beg to move . The S~GRETARY FOR PU'iLIC WORKS the following amendment:- (Hon. \\. Forgan Smith. Jlacku 11) : I be~ to " Omit the word- .move- · o • 110\V' " That the Bill be now read a third with a view to inserting the words- time." ' this day nine months.'" Question put and passed. I do so for the following reason. The Bill has gone through the House w 1th very litt.le consideration. and in its present form may ALL SAI;\'TS CHL:RCH LAKDS BILL. do injm·~, to a large number of persons in THIRD RE.WI;.;G. this Stare. It was pointed out during the Committee stage that a very grave menace The S~CRETARY FOR PL:BLIC LAXDS threatens one of our important industries as (Hon. V\. McCormack. Cairns) : I beg to .move- a result of operations which are covered by this Bill, that is, that trappers will be allowed " That the Bill be no,,- read a third to go on to properties, and perhaps they time." will I e'wc the ea re asses of animals they kill Question put and passed. lving about. I suppose that the blowfly pest has never been worse in Queensland than it. is at the present time owing to the climatic INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATIOX ACTS conditions. and it must be recognised that, AMEXDME.:\'T BILL. if trappers are to receive permits to go on to proJwrties and the carcasses of the animals INITIATIOX. they kill are to be left lying about, a. tre­ The SECRETARY FOR Pl:BLIC WORKS mendous loss will be caused in the sheep (Hon. W. Forgan Smith, Jlacka IJ) : I becr to inclustrv in the State as a result of the .move- · o increase in the fly pest. Sheepowners are making every possible endeavour to clean . "That the House will at its next up the carcass of every head of stock that &Jttlng. resolve its·elf into' a Committee dies. Jt is immediately carted to a con­ of the W~ole to C<;msicler of the desirable­ venient place and destroyed by fire in order ness of mtroducmg a Bill to further that there may be no facilities for the amend the I':dustrial Arbitration Acts, breeding of the fly. I t.hink it i.s only 1916 to 1923, m certam particulars." reasonable that, when we are malnng an . :!\fr. :MOO RE (.4 ubigny): I would like to amendment of the law which affects an 1,mow whether the hon. member does not important inclustrv on which in a large mtencl to. follow the usual custom and give measure Queensland is dependent to-clay, as ul/hme I!lformatwn as to the directions in a result of the indiscriminate permits which w Jc It IS proposed to amend the Act. may be givE'n to trappers. greater time should ';J'he SECRETARY FOR Pnuc WORKS. Not t be allowed for investigation, inst.eacl of rush­ !his stage. Why do you not stuclv the Stand­ ing· blindly into a course from which the Ing Orders_? '\_"ou know perfectlv well that countrv mav suffer to a tremendous extent. I cannot gn-e mformat-ion at this stage. \V e kriow \~hat enormous losses the fly pest has c:lUsed. The Government have been , Mr. MOO RE : . We are asked to consider spending large sums of money in trying to "helher It Is .clesnable. to amend the Inclus­ combat it, and we know that one of the ~nal Arb1trat10n Act m certain particulars most effect.iYe means of spreading it is to ut we are not ~ol~ what those particular~ leaY0 Ctll"C'af'ses lying- aLvut in which flies are. Ho:v t.hen IS It possible for us to sav can br~ccl. Xevertheless '"e find the Govern­ :vhether It 1s. desirable to amend the Ac"t ment bringing in a Bill which will nullif;c a In those particulars or not? great portion of their E'ffort, because it will allow carcocses to be left lying- about on these The SPEAIG;R: I '"oulcl point out to the runs, with a resultant possible loss of many hon .. m'.'mbcr that the initiation in Commit- t.housancls of pounds merely for the sake of teo lS the stage at which information should he sought. the be1wfit of a small section of the commu­ nity and for the pnrpos0 of bringing in an :urr. J\IOORE: Ye~, but at this stacre I amount of rcwnue it is hardly worth talking thmk we should have some informatio~ to about. ·enable us .to understand whether it is desir­ There is also the question as to the advisa­ able that It should come on at all If as w bilitv of the Government allowing trappers arc told, there is going to be quite ~ tmns~ to go on to private holdings for which fo;·mahon of the Act, I think we should at people pay rent to the Crown, or of which th~s . stage g<>t some information from the thev have obtained the freehold, and conse­ M:mstcr to . tha~ effect. To my mind it is quently ha ye a prior right to say who shall ;v1ong to. brmg m a B11! Without giving anv or shall not trespass on their ground. It Information t<;> the House at this stacre " would not be so bad if the holders of these properties "·ere al!owQd to nominate the The SECRE'_['ARY FOR Pnuc WoRKs: I~ i.s to make provision for a 44-hour week. tram1ers who v·ould bE' allowed to go on to Question put and passed. them. and it would not be so bad if they were g·iven an opportunity of exercising M1·. Moore.] 1530 An:mals awl Birds [ASSEl\IBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

sm11c su~1crYision o,·er those n1cn by deciding I take it that it is a matter which will have whether they \\ere likely to do any damage t<> be left to the boards \Yhich will be au to the nm or not. I have poi11ted out the fait "ith local conditions. C"IOrnwus risk of spre-ading ihe blo,vfly pest, The fact of men shoot.ing on holdings and: but thPrc is . I cannot see that the­ En'n if it means placing thPse trappers at hon. member's argument should dPlay th'" a little di .. advantage. we should put the third reading of this Bill. They BiJl on o11e side before jeopardising our [10.30 a.m.] arc matters for th local boards great.c·.·t industry. The Minister should to deal ,,-ith. All these matterc accept the amendment so that he will ha\·e can he arranged for by regulation after the an opportunity oi obtaining furthrr infornla­ Bill is passed. The boards under the B1ll tion from the people who are vitally inter· will h'IYC power to make regulations to deal <'>H cl in the industr~-, and. seeing that the with this and all other matters that may Bill is being pushed through without ade­ arise. ~othing can arise from now until the quate time being gi,-en to thosf' vitally con­ Bill is in o])eration that cannot be dealt wtth cnrn~d to make full representations and put thoroughly ·b:v regulation. No harm has been. their case before the GoYcrnmcnt. he should done by calling attention to thes: facts, a~d romide1· whether it is not justifiable to dela~· perhaps the Minister. after hearmg the dis­ putting th• Bill on the statuto-book for a cussion. n1av see his \vay clear to frame· time. to enable those engaged in the sheep reo·ula tions for the further guidance of the· industry an opportunity of placing their bo':uds that will be appointed. case before the Government, and thus giYing the GoYernment a chftnce of fully con­ :\Ir. :YIORGA~ (Jiurilla): I do not agree· sidering ,vhether this Biil will have the effect with the hon. member who has just resumed of wiping out all the good that has been his se2.t. I am certainly of opinion that goocl done by the offi~ers of the various depart­ reasons exist \Yhv this Bill should not be n1ents. and 111akrng useless the rnoney that placed on the statute-book. Already graziers has been spent in endeavouring to cope "\vith and those engaged in the industry are­ the fly pest in a mistaken attempt at assist­ a\Yakcning to the fact that this Bill is not ing an industry which is only going to bene­ ;roing to be in thei1· interests. It is only fit a few indi,-iduals but \vill victimise during the pai't few days that hon. members ~-nany others. v.ho fiyp in the electorat s concerned have o·cccived protests not onl:t from property ::Vfr. POLLOGK (Grr rtOrlf): There appears holders but from people engag·ed in the sheep· to be no good reason why the passing of this and cattle industry. Bill should be dclawd. I quite reft!ise that the leader of the Opposition has something 'Hr. COLLIKS: Do not forget that the party behind his arguments. I listened very care­ OH this side of the House represent the fullv in Committee to the debate on this country. cmestirm. which is one that aff-c•cts me as a :VIr. :\IORGAX: These people have asked' rlH:>n1b0r of Parli an1Pnt to a Yrry largo <'xt ..ont. As the leader of the Opposition ns to protest against the passage of this Bill. That shows that this House has not had a stawd the shooting of kangaroos and the full opportunity of considering all the amend·.. leayin!:!; of their carcasses is like1v to accen­ ments pert.o.ining to the BilL It also show& tuate the flv m0nace. hut I can ciee no reason that certain amendments m1ght have been why the postponing of the third rea.ding of placed in the Bill to provide for penalties this BiH is going to in11Jl'OY0 that position at to he imposed on those persons who allow ell. The kangaroos will still be shot. and I carcases to lie about indiscriminately. It the flies ,,-ill still be tl10r0. and cannot at has also been proYcd that, if cmtain dis­ all se how it· is possible to have those car­ infectants arc used on such rar-cassos. the flies ca~.--e"" burnt ollt on the western down!', as are destroyed and preYcntcd from breeding. th0re is no "·ood there and therefore there In plan's ·wbcre ·wood is ·H-::arre and carcasses i~ no po,ssibility of the carcas::-cs being burnt ea nnot. be burnt there is a method of dealing in that way. \Yith the rarrrrssc~ to JH'CYcnt the breeding of :\Jr-. ::V10RG.\X: That does not apply every­ flies. whe-re. :\lr. POI.LOCK: Cannot that be done by :\Ir. POLLOC'K: If the kangaroo shooter regu1ation ·: had to b1nc1m:-nt as \YC 1na·';r desire ancl 1:c n1cn are oppof3ed to t.he conditions It cont.~uns. It _is ~enerally n~cogni>::d that contnincd in this am0nding Bill, and I hope a n1an ~ ho 111C Is h1s castle, and cannot be the :Minister -will look upon onr an1endment t•ntcred by a ~h·anger or ono who mav desire a~ one that is not going to do any injury to trc pasc without creating an offonc.e. to hi' proposal, and that will not allow the This Bill give& power to individuals to opo -'lllTI or the bear to be d(c c,troyed any go upon a man's pr011erty the 1noment thev mmc than has been the case in the past. rcrciv0 a !icons" from the.board and if thev Perhaps in nine months' time amendments ~o desire. to shoot opossu1ns upo~ his ;oof tor), may be p~aced in the Bill which will pre.-ent round the homestead, or anvwherc else thev its being objectionable to the men engaged (chOO'c'c Ther0 is no reaso'n whv the Biil in the industry and to those who own pro­ should l•e rushed through. Qneo!1sland has pert:, on which the animals will be snared. now been settled for over 100 1rears. and the trapping of oposfnffis and b8ars has been The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE carried on for at least fifty vears and there IHon \Y. C\i. Gillies, Eacham): After accept­ has been no necPc"-it:v previcms!y' for a Bill in(!.' 3cYcral Ycry important a1nend1nents front such as thi c Tho ::\Iinister would be well the' otl•cr side. I am surprised that the adviccd to allow the Bill to remain in "'hcv­ ]ckumccl for the few pence it may .\et properly and to enable- inspectors to be anpointod 1vho will sec· thct the .Act is not "\Ye trusic you \Yill be succcs. ful in n:ln:=-:e·d either in the lett0r or jn tho spirit. :1oiming out to the Government the That is not dr;ired. The <:omplaints that Hon. W. N. Gillies.] 1532 Animals and Birds [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill. ha\ e been made by the leader of tho Oppo­ time it provides rnme pwtection tD the sition and the hon. member for :Murilla people who are paying the rent tD t.he ahout kang1u·oo :c;;hooter~ l0aving the car­ Crown at the oresent time. ca;;;se:s tv rot on the ground, and so spread Question~That the word pwposed tD be pests such as blowflies, an~ in existence Dmittcd (Jir. Jioorc's amendment) stand part at the prC'ent time. That question is not of the qucstion~put; and the Houae being- dealt with nnder existing- legislation. Crmyn at the present time. and putting- off this Bill for nine months is not going to solYe that problem. Looking AYES, 36. again at the po,Yer to tnake regulations Mr. Barber Mr. Kirwan nnder this Bill. I am qnito satisfied that Bedford Land Bruce Larcombe \YC can tnakc rcQ:'nlations under the Bill as Bulcock }fcCormack it has pa'5ed th.rough this Hou,.o to deal Carter YicLachlan with that question also. At. present under Oollins l\Iullan the prir:cipal Act rEg·ulations mav be n1ade , Conroy Payne and the Dill dE·ah with the· following Cooper, F . .A.. I'ol!ock , Cooper, \V. matters:~ Ri01·clan Dash Ryan The liccming and registration of dealers Dunstan ~mith in re.SJW"t of themselyes and their Foley , Stopfonl }ncm1ses: Gilclay Theoclore Gillies Weir Permits to trappers; and , Gledson , \Ve-11ington The conditions under which registration H<~n-.nn Wilson and p0rmits under this Act may be , Hartley "\Vinsta.nlev grar:.ted. Jones , \Vright ~ I am quite prepared to hear thP views Tellers: Mr. 1Yeir and :\ir. ·wriiht. of thDse cDncurned as to hDw permits shall NOES, 23. be g-ranted. Then the regulations may pro­ Mr. Appel Mr. I..ogan Yidc that the licenses and permits may be , Barnes, W. H. 2\faxwel! Brand Thfoore suspended or rc>vokcd. Power is also given , Clayton , J\forgan ID make regula iiGns for the prDtcction, preser­ Corser Xott vation. and propagation of animals and Deacon Petrie birds. Mr. Coldham appears to be afraid that Edwards Roberts permits may be granted to the number of , E!phinstone Sizer 10 or 20 Dr mDre to Dpera te on the one hold­ , Fry SwaYne Kelso TayiOr ing-. That is nDt. the intention of this legis­ Kerr ih.,.arren lation at all. The intention is lD restrict , King and reg-ulate the ~ranting of permits, and Tellers: Mr. Brand and :llr. Clayton. I have no doubt that the representatives Df the graziers on the boar·ds and the repre­ P.UR. AYE~. Xcn:s. s gi,-e Dunstan ,. Stopford po,ver also to grant rer:,istrations and ncrmit~ Foley Tbeodore ,,~ eir in and for anY .flistri<'t. and for otherwise Gildav administ0ring ;vithin such districts the nro­ GillieS Wellington Gledson Wilson ;-i,iDl1S of the Act. The~- further giYe power Hn..n~on \Vinstauley for~ Hartley "~right "prescribing· rul0o;; goyerning th0 Joncs rnwcr.-.:. authorities, dutiE':;, proreedings. Tellers: l\Ir. Rim·dan nnd ::ur. Ry:m. and lmsiness Df such board: and NoEs, 23. \·encrally for c

CITY OF BRISBAKE BILL. owners of valuable properties to say, " I am CO)Hl!TTEE. going to place a tax on your property." That tax amount-s to a preferential mortgage. (Jir. Pollock. Grcgory, in the chair.) Unpaid rates are a charge on the land, and Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to. take precedence of mortgagf'',, whether they Clause 3-" Interpretation-Elector"­ are registered or not. The Australian \Y orkf'rs' Union, of which many hon. mem­ Mr. KING (Logan) : I beg to move the bers opposite are members. only allows those following amendment:- members who have paid their lm·ies to vote " On lino 8, page 2, after the word­ in their ballots. ' city' Mr. BULCOCK' \Ve onlv allow those who insert the words- are associated with the movement to vote. ' and being a person whose name 0PPOSITIO:o; MEMBERS : Ah ! appears in the ratebook of the council ::\1r. FRY: And they must be financial. as an o \Vner or occupier of rateable land within the city.' " The CHAIR MA::\' : Order ! Order ! The clause will then read- Mr. KING: This principle of adult fran­ " 'Elector '-A person 111hose nan1e is chise in local gO\-crnment matters v:as not enrolled on an deetoral roll compiled asked for by tl1P people of Qtwensland. It pursuant to the Elections Act for an >vas turned do-.n1 the onh- time it oyer came electoral district or part thereof com­ before the people. The quest-ion of adult prised within the city; and being a franchi~e in connection with local govcrnn1ent ce~me before the Upper House some years IJCrson ·whose n~unc appears in the• !'ate­ ago, and the Upper House decided to post­ book of the conncil a Yav with adult the Upper House with sullicient. additional franchise. • members to enable them to have this legis­ ::\lr. \VIUGIIT: Propert-y Yote. lation passed. Before that took place a referendum of the people was taken as to 1\Ir. KIKU: :\o. not a propert,· vote. \Vc on the advisabihty of abolishing the Upper this side are in favour of the franchise being House. That referendum resulted in a given to the O\Yncr or occupier, and prin1arily majoritv of 66.000 of the electors of Queens­ to the occupier. G"nder the existing Local land, u;1der t-he adult franchise, turning the Authorities _\et the occupier is t-he person proposition down. It was badly beaten. and primarily responsible for the payment of tlw people decided that the Upper House rate'"· The occupwr is liable for the rates should remain. whether he agreed to pay them or not. The occupier is the person whose _\mongst the questions that came before [11 a.m.] goods and chattels are attached the people on the referendum for the abolition under a warrant if the rates are d the G"pnrr House was the question of not paid. I have said all along that the adult franchise as applied to local authorities. occupier should have a vote for reasons I The Hmm SECRETARY: You would not givec have ,tJready stated. and beeause he has to the occupier a vote. put up with all the disabiliti<' of bad roads Mr. KI:::\G: The occupier had a vote. and drainage. The occupier for these reasons should be entitled to a vote whether he pays The HO)IE SECRETARY: :'\at the owner and the rates or not. But I could never sec the the occupir•r. force of every adult who has no liabilitieo Mr. KIXG: Yes. If the occupier paid in com•ect-ion with the carrying on of ]oc::tl the rates-and he verv often did-he got a government having a yote. He has no 'ote, The owner ha·d · no remc, 1y against obli;rations or liabilities. A man who is a the occupior baYing a Yote because, if the camper on the bank of a creek, if he is o\vner inf'isted upon paying the rates, the qualified by residence-which is the only occupier had a right to -deduct the amount qualification-has an equal ,right in r<"gard to of rat,os from his rent and to claim his vote. local government matters with a man who is I want to go further than that. I have occupying premises and paying heavy rates. already stated, and I say again, that I I am not saying anything of the equal rights favour tlw occupier having the Yote whether of this man to the owner of tche property. lw pays the rates or not. As I previously I am not adyocating the rig·hts of private stated: one of the questions which came property. before the public and the Upper House was ~Ir. COLLINS: Of course you are. the question of extending the adult franchise Mr. Bt:LCOCK: You are advocating a to local authorities. This was turned down restricted franchise. by the Lpper House, and thE' action of the rppC'l' House W-'lS endorsed by the people. Mr. KING: I am adYocating a restricted The roosons giYen by the Upper House for franchise in these matters. There is a rejecting the idea were- restricted franchise in some form or other all oYer Aust-ralia in local government elec­ " 1. 'I'hat the Bill would open the door tions. The franchi'se that obtains in Queens­ to gross injustice being inflicted on all land in local authoritv affairs does not obtain nersons having a permanent residence or in any other part of Australia. The hon. interest in any district, inasmuch as all gentleman who interjected would be the very owners and occupiers would be liable to first man to get up and complain if any having heavy loans and perpetual taxa­ man was given the right to place a preferen­ tion imposed on them by reckless nomad t-ial mortgage oYer his property. The adult Yoters who could themselves escape from franchise in local government matters means all liability. that the person who has no responsibilities' " 2. The local authoritv franchise is or obligations in carrying out local govern­ essentially different from the par liamen­ ment duties has an equal right with the tary franchise in area, interest, and Mr. King.j 1534 City of Brisbane Em. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

responsibility: and r<;pr<;sontation should be entitled to some say in t-he expenditure go with taxation, and not otherwise. of his own money. During the last four "3. The representati.ves of the people vears people ha.ve paid a considerable amount on city, to\vn, and shire councils ha-Ye of rates to the councils, yet the;~' have had not asked for the Bill, nor does the no sa;~· in the expenditure of that money. community or any appreciable part of That is wrong. the communit:;· desire it." A restriction of the franchise is the onlv 'Those \\'01'0 tho reasons gi.ven by the upper way in which thee,• people can b~ given a Hotnc for postponing the second r· ading of say in the expenditure of the money which the Bill for six months, and I say those thev contribute. Surelv there is no justice were good, sound, and .valid reasons, and in the contc~ntion that. lncrely bl'cause a man hold good j LJst as much to-day as they did happens to live within an area, he should then. have a .vote, while the man who happens to own a property or leases a property in :\h. :\100RE (cluuignJJ): I supr,ort the t-he area ,,nd pays the rates should not ha.ve contention of the hon. HlCtnbcr for Loga.n. a vote? The injustice may not be so glaring ·when this Bill was going through its second under the Greater Brisbane schen1e as it is reading the hon. m2mber for P.ort Curtis. under present circumstances; but there is when talking about ::'\ow ;1,ealand. pointed no doubt that in the pa t there have been out that the- had the same local go.vci'nmont Jnost glaring injustices. It n1ust be recog­ franchise as we have. They haYe nothing nised t-hat the right of taxation should also of the sort. give a right to say how the money shall be :11<- CARTER: They have. t'xpended. The Minister must recognise that these people at the present time are not ::'IJ r. Jl.lOORE: I shall read and demon· getting the just deal that they should get. strate what the New Zealand franchise is. If the hon. gentleman is not prepared to In borough corpprations the franchise is accept the wh_ole amendment, he should gi'-:bn to ratepayers 'vho may have one, t"\VD, make provision, as has been done in New or three vot- s. I am talking about muni­ Zealand, for the tenant and for the free­ cipalities such as Auckland. The f-irst quali­ holder to have a voi'ce in the election of the f:eation in New Zealand is a freehold council which is going to decide how the qualification. The definition under the 1\'ew money w.hich the~- contribute is going to Zealand Act roads- be expended. It is absolutely wrong to " A freehold qualification, meaning cut them right out. and to continue to thereby that he is the beneficial and tax them and give t-hem no opportunity of duly registered owner of a freehold estate saying how their money shall be spent. in land of a capital value of not less :i'vlr. F. A. COOPER (Bremer): The hon. than £25." member for Logan still clings to his pet Mr. CmTER : Every adult has a vote. pmperty qualification, and hon. members opposite ha.ve not got out of the way of Mr. MOORE: That is the very thing we thinking of their predecessors of many years have been quarrelling about ever since this ago. The a·dult franchise has given excel­ Bill was introduced. Every adult has a lent results in municipal matters, and bene· vote in New Zealand, but every property fits have accrucc! from it in other directions. owner also has a .-ote. and, if Opposition members are pinning Mr. CARTER: :\at an added vote. their laith to the property qualification in Mr. MOORE : He has a vote whether he muuicipal matters. they are still pinning lives in the area. or not. thPir faith to property qualification in other matters. If it is right for a person in a Mr. 0\RTER: He has only one vote. municipality to have a voice because he owns Mr. MOORE: The hon. member wants to property, it is good enough in State and squib out of it- by saying that he has only Federal me.tters. one vote. :Mr. KrxG: Do not forget that the occu­ The CHAIRMAN : Order ! pier will have a vote under my amendment. :Mr. :MO ORE : There is a rating qualifica­ 1\Ir. F. A. COOPER: The occupier is a tion under the New Zealand Act. There is little side-wind. The hon. member for Logan in addition a residential qualification, and knov·s the difficulty the occupier had in times there is also an occupier's qualification. The past in getting a vote. He knows that the definition of "occupier's qualification," occupier had to go and pay the rates and re&ds- deduct them from the rent, perhaps, of a " An occupier's qua1ification. meaning particularly harsh landlor-d at the risk of not thereby that he is, and for at least three being allo,vcd to ren1ain in occupancy. months then last past. has been, in ~Ir. KrxG: Remember I am advocating occupation as a tenant or sub-tenant." the cnse of the occupier. New Zealand-which is the only countl"c in :\lr. F. A. OOOI)ER: 1 know the hon. the Sonthern Hemisphere that has a viider member sa,·, so now. but hc- bas not moved franchise than the other States of Australia­ anv amcnc\ment to · th:.t Pffect. Thc hon. admits the de"irabilitv and the justice of the member knows the loophole in the amend­ claim that the man' who pays the rat-es. ment as well as I do. whether he !in's in the area or not, should :Mr. KrKG : ]\~ o, I do not. have a vote. That is the position that we have taken up all through. In New Zealand, Mr. F. A. COOPER: I wish to point out if a man has a freehold property in an where the Opposition stands in the matter area, he has a vote whether he lives in that of a property qualification for electors. area or not. That. is what we ha.ve been Thev stand for it in municipal matters and endeavouring to secure in order to get away in Federal and State matters. If it is a from this injustice, by which the man who terrible thing for an owner to have to sub­ pays the rates is not entitled to a vote in mit to a preferential mortgage on his pro­ that area unless he lives in it. He should perty in municipal matters, is it not so [Mr. King. City of Brisb me Bill. [14 OCTOBER.) City of Brisbane BiU. 1535

:1n regard to State and Federal matters? it. v\' e llDtiec in the platform of hDn. mem­ Does he not submit tho whole of his propen,­ bers opposite that they are supposed to stand to preferential Inortgage in this Assembly for the principle of " One adult, one vote,"' when a Loan Bill is assented to? Exactlv though. of course, we know that the Opposi­ ;the came is cl.one in State matters as itl tion are on1y wincl.o\Y dre .... .=~ing, just the san1e municipal matters. anc.l no harm is done. It as anybocl: else. h .. s been found that a broader civilisation ~Ir. I{ERR: You are alway;:, doing it. has arisen where the franchise has been broadened. Mr. F. A. COOPER: The leader of th8 ..All along people v:ho \Yantf'd a broader Opposition now says that the fact that a ciYilisation alld a broader franchise have n1an liY<'s in an area ls uo l'f?ason whv he had to meet the argument put fonvard by should have a vote-that is, he should" not the Oppo;;Jtton that property ha.; rights. ha Ye a vote unle.s~ ho O\\?ns propert:?. That Property has no right, in the matter of a j~ th0 kPrnel of the oppo3it1on af hon. n1en1- n1an's life and well-being. It i~ the people ben on the other side to the principle. They ··who liv.e in a n1unicipality 'vho have to put think that because a man liv·es in a district up with munil'ipal c>O!Jditions--not people he should not have any right to a vote. They 'ay how it shall be gD­ support the amendment. I think it is only vcrncd and run. Thcv have had to submit right that in local authority affairs the right iD the yoke of property owners in the past to vote should be extended only to property more tho1n to anv voke which has been 01-rners and occupiers. There is one test ·jmposcd. I-IDn. m"embers Dpposite go right which we may apply in these matters. \Vho up tD the hilt in their adherence to the old i, the individual responsible for paying the property qualiftcation. I am pleased thev rat('~? ·hav0 moved this amendment. because rt gives an opporttmity of pointing out to the 1\Ir. ]'. A. COOPER: The people who work electors of the StatP as well as in the in the community for the good of the com­ Federal arena that the members Df the munity d out as mDny with his party when he says that everv the god to whom ''"" all bow down. They re~n.dent should haYe a vote. The hon~. 2re do1vn on their rnarro\v bones~cvery one gentleman bclieYcs in eYcrv resident in a of them-to that same god in carrying out 1nuni-eipality having a votO. their mYn work. from one end of the chapter to the other. As the loader of the Opposi­ Mr. Moo RE: I did not say so. tian point<•d out, property ownprs in the city Mr. F. A. COOPER: The hon. g-entleman oi Brisban,, are absolutolv deprived of votes ·said he hoped the :Minister 'Nould go as for the renresentatiDn of the• citv: but on far 3S inc~;caied bv the hon. memb0r fm· the other 'hand men \vho are here to-day Port Curtis. " nnd gone to-morrow can de< ide the ifisUP. Mr. MOORE: As far as giving the man lion. members Dpposiic cannot dispute that. who ovn1s property a ,·ate. People living hore who may be out of the State in a few· wePk.s or a fc,r n1onthq can Mr. F. A. COOPER: 'l'hen the hon. nwm­ decide big ismes in this Greater Brisbane. ber does nDt .believe that <'verv resident over Thev are to have rights equal to tbose of twenty-one years of uge shoul:d have a vote. men and women who have lived here for Ii is just as ''ell to ha vc it definite. because· ±ortv and fiftv vears, and who have 1"orked there seems to have bpen a good deal of har~l to mak~ the nlaee what it is. I con­ ··doubt and secrecy about it. tend that that is- absDlutelv unfair and Mr. SIZER : It is no secret. unjust., and I think that. in lo~al government we had a very good £ranch ise befDre the Mr. F. A. COOPER: Thoro seems to have adult franchise was introduced by thi;; 'been a good deal of secrecy and do11bt about Administration. Mr. Taylor.] · 1536 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEJ\iBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

Why should my son and my daught-er ,vho duly registered owner of a freehold' live with me have equal rights with me cstat.e in land in t.he bDrough of the· in voting in local authority matters? They cctpital value of not less than £25. have got that equal right, but they have (b) Rating qm~lification, meaning no responsibilities in finding the money to thereby that he 1s the person whose· pay t.he rates. I have to find the money name appears for the time being in to pay them, yet they could vote against the ' Occupiers' column in the V alua­ my wishes if they so desired. The prmciple tion Roll in respect of anv rateable of adult franchise is unfair and unsound. property in the borough. · No matter what hon. members opposite may . (!-) Resiclentia quallficat.ion, mean­ say about it being democratic, I clain; that 1 it is not democratic, and I certainly 1nt-end mg thcrebv that he has been a resident in C\c•w Ze.aland for twelve months, and to support the amendment. for three months last past a resident in ::\lr. CARTER (Port Curtt's): I am not a the boroug~ .. and is a Britis_h subject, little surprised to find hon. members on cliher by Oll'th or naturahsation in tiw other side who want to hark back to C\cw Zealand." a period when only a portion of the com­ That is the broadest. franchise that one can munit-y living in a city had a. vote. I am lwvc. and that applies in \Vollington with not satisfied to go back to the condition a population of 92.000, of whom' over the city "·as in when the old system obtained. 43,000 are dPctors. That would just At that time we had the example of rate­ about be cqnal to tlw number qualified payers refusing to carry a poll to borrow to vote under a svstcm of adult suffrage. In money to clean up a place like the munici­ Kew Zcalrmd this broad franchise is in pa!it:-· of Ithaca, and the Health Department operation in the Greater Cit.y areas, and in had to insist upon that work being carried such areas the~· have made wonderful pro­ out. 11'h:v did that occur? Simply became gress nncler this better fDl'm of government, the owners oi the property in Ithaea lived and have to some extent cleaned up those at ::\cw Farm or some other more favoured arC'aB. and thC' bodi0~ conccrnPd hav{' been suburb, and dict-ated as to vchat should take able to \vOl'k in the interests of the people. place in Ithaca. Under the system desired The s~·stem of adult suffrage has accomplished bv the hon. member for Logan. supported beneficial rcsulis in our own citv. The local by the leader of the Opposition and the hon. aut-horih bodies in :\cw Zealand a.ro not member for \Vindsor, we would continue a what vou might call bodies of business men, condition of affairs whereby people would but they arc broad-minded bodies capable be compelled to live in the very worst and of carrying on loc.1l acti,·itie•3 of every kind most congested suburbs controlled entirely with advantage to the people. I believe that by people living elsewhere unde1· more this Con111ittee is quite satisfied that, where favourable conditions. That was the very the broad franchise is in operation in the thing that I argued during the debate on Dominion of ::\'cw Zealand immense advan­ the eec'Jnd reading of this Bill, when I tag.es have been obtained by the people. pointed out that that was the systc,m that Th1s Committee would be ill-advised in anv had placed Brisbane in the position she was \vay to consider the amendment. ·• in prior to the adoption of adult suffrage. If \Ye were to adopt a limited suffrage, Mr. CORSER (B11rnett): The hon. member we "·ould be taking a retrograde step, and for Port Cnrtis has with some trouble I c1nirn we ~re making some advance to~day. .endea vonrec\ to prove a ea se on behalf of a In ::'-Jew Zealand, where every man on the tnJivcrsal franchise in local government Dominion roll has a vote in the municipal matters, but he must know that the only elections, he voted to clean up that position a.rgun1cnt he can use fron1 his own point of of affairs. The leader of the Opposition view is that it is the desire and determined endeavoured to lead this Chamber to believe wish of his supporters that all thci,· sup- that the only people who nre entitled to porters should reeei ve a vote in vote in :'\ew Zealand were those "·ho paid [11.30 a. m.] order to captu-re the control of the· rates or owned land. city a.:; well as every other govern­ ing body within the State. The hon. member Mr. ~100RE: I said they had a vote, too. lried to insinuate that members of the Mr. CARTER: The franchise for the whole Opposition were attempting to restrict the of New Zealand is the same as that which franchic,o. I might remind him that the applies in Wellington. broad franchise which exists throughout the whole cf tlw State "as given to the people Mr. MooRE: No. of Que"nsland and Australia before a Labour Mr. CARTER: Yes. GoYernJnent assumed power. Mr. MOORE: No. There are two Acts. 0PPOSITIOX :YlE:\IBERS: Hear, hear ! Mr. CARTER: This statement of the Mr. CORSER: Beca.use this broad principle electoral qualification which I have here has been extended to parliamentary elect ions applies to one of the greater city areas in it does not say it is a good thing it' should be New Zealand. Let me read the franchise so "'tended to other governing bodies, whether that the hon. member will be a little wiser it be the gonrning body o( the city of Bris­ than he appears to be. uane or some big industrial enterprise. It is no 1norc: logical to give every adult resident Mr. KELSO: Yon are not sure of your facts. a vote m local government matters than it Mr. CARTER: This is the franchise as would be for the workers engaged in m<';Lt­ a pp lied to the city of Wellington- works or some other industry to have a vote io decide "·ho the directors of that industry " The name of any person mav b3 should be. The only claim of the hon. placed on the district electDrs' roll in membeJ' in support of a universal franchise respect of any one (but not more) of under this Bill was that cerhin individuals the following qualifications:- living outside the area refused to ca-rrv a.. (a) Freehold qualifications, meaning r'oll authorising a council on the outskirt~ of thereby that he is the beneficial and Brisbane to borrow money to clean up its. [Mr. Taylor. City of Brisbane Bill. [14 0CTODER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1537

district. The hon. member should know that will represent us on this Greater Brisbane the Commissioner for Health can override Council. Hon. members opposite recognise the decision of such a body in a matter of that it would benefit very few people, be­ that kind. Such a decision by anv local cause re>tlly, takmg the large area embraced authority could, in the interest.J of hurnanity, in the Greater Brisbane scheme, the man be brushed aside by the Department of "ho has most of his interests centred iu the Health tl.t any moment. If that is the only city, cmd who lives, say, in Toomhu!, will argument thcl hon. member for Port Curtis have an opportunitv of voting no mntter .can put up in defence of the <:lesire of the ,dwre he resides, and so he will be able to Labcur party to capturo seats on loexl protect his interests, whether thev a1·e iu al!t~orit if's through the stuffing of rolh by the cit;- or the suburbs. If the arnendment, g1v1ng Yotes to casual ·workers. tlwn there is wore accepted. it would mean that " man "'er. rc•ason why the amcndr1wnt shoul<:l bo could not exercise the franchise> unlec·S he c. nied. The principle of the univernl v·£·re a ratepayer on the council's books, or a franchise is bad,. and it has been cxten<:led r.roperty owner on tiH' council's books. That throughout the State. It is a franchise vvould mean that ono piece ot property rrcight which does not gin> those particulariv con­ represent hvo ;-otes, one for the owner and cernc~ a fa_ir oppo~tunity of ~~naging~ their the other for the occupier. I am, sure' the mnr fmancr,d affaHs. The -cirfticultv of a mover of the amendment bad no serious univ.crsal franchise in these matter; arises object in viuch cases those who receive the benefits of the expenditure oi the loan have not to fiml The HO~lE 8EC~ETARY: It uses the the intereJt .or redemption. Gene·rally spea.k­ words " O\VIJcr" or " occupier," so providing mg, the polrcy _of the Labour party in union for boih to have a vote. Such an '"mend­ matters rs to giVe a vote to thoso who have ment can only be a benefit to a few p0ople 1'aid. their way. If it is good in their own Y ho may be living in Sydney or elsewhere, ~1arti cular caseJ surely the. same p1·inciple and who tna.v havo inic1·csts in Brisbane. :hotLd1 hold good when rt concerns the \Yhat is it golng to cost? It means that wo mtcresb of those who are landholders. \Ve \muld have to dissect the books of the have a Parliament of seventv-two members council rwd print a new roll for each of the. and und0r this principle every ClW of thos~ tvwnty clecroratcs, instead of using the ono members should have a sav as to who shall roll which is used to elect hon. members of lw Premier and who shall 'be elected to th0 tnis House wh" represent metropolitan elec­ Cabinet. That would not suit the Labour tc•r::ttes. All that expense would be incurred P.'rty, and they will not recognise the prin­ merely to give a few people with a little c~ph' here. Thoy . will not recognise any pcoperty in the city, and who may not be rrghts of the Oppos1hon, nor will they ao-ree residents in the artoa, an opportunity of to sel?ct the ::\1inisten under a pop~1lar l~aving a voice in tho election of those \vho franchrse, because rt would not suit them. shall represent them. :1\o serious argument Mr. CARTER: \Ye have spoken on that. has been lirought forward in support of the nmendment. This Hous0 ha;: clearly :\Ir. CORSER: The hon. gentleman may accepter!' the principle of a broad franchise. clarm to have spoken on it but he has not which applies to lor·al authoritiPs as wall bc.en able to carry it out, 'and now he has as to thL' rr$liresentation in this Hou'3P, and been speaking. in the very opposite way. tlw policy of representation in the Fedora! I am supportmg the amendment and the l-Tonse i-; based Hpon a similar broad fran­ contention of tho ptovious speakers in its chise. I an1 not going to ~upport a.n:v step support. I only hope that the Go.-ernment hich would le;"·en that broad franchise, will give \vay in thi3 idea of theirs to take a v\ ay the interests of those who ,,-ish to i\lr. KEHR (EnO(Jf/' ro): I do not think de ;clop the State and control their own the Hon1o Secrcturv was ver\ H"riou~ this. homes: They could make a beginning m morning when he n1adc the a·ccusation that brealnng avvay from this prirociple by thP Opposjtion \VPrc not ~crious in moving ac~epting the amendment. !hi; n.mendmenL Sm·l'ly the hon. gentleman understands the position bcttc1· than t., say The }I(l:\H: SECRETARY (Hon. J. Stop­ \rP are JnPrf'I~.- advocates for vvoalthv friends fol·d, Jiount J[organ): The an1ench11ent .is ontside 11.·hC'n ~we n1ovc such an an1Cnthnent. J•ot rrwy,,d in anv desire to haYe it carried. 8!fr-ely t'1e hon. gentleman understar :h that 1-fon. rn_1_1nb•·r2 oPposih~ qujtt' recofYnisc that the ratepa,-ers who will come V"ithin the tbr· Do he\ nf the:>: f~n\.~r.rnmnnt t"Yn +h[...... ,.,,.,"'_ (~l'P~tcn• Rl';"'h"n'-' 'll"a!.l a1•c.. nrd· ~ -n<:>lf.h-u tio'l of a hoad hanchisc is- w,ell ;n.2l~cl~,~~Yv people- at~ all. - Pos;il1IY 5---~~or --~,;nt. ·~;:-~io c!C'ftt~(~d. Hon. m0mbcrs opposite are l~ll'rel,.~ 1'<'1' cent. of the rah'pa0-ers in the Greater 1Pi..Y~'11Ig Hw a1ncndn10nt to pleas~~' some of Brisbane area may be termed wealthy-- thetr wealthy friends outside. (Opposition The HO.\lE SECRETARY: They all have (:1.-:·,d~nsion.) monlbel-:J Yerv Hon. know ''-'C'll YOtC'". the~? haYe no chanf'e of haYing it rirrif•d. lf it \Y('t(' e::trried it '' ould n1ean a n'.~trirtecl :\J:r. KERR: The other PO p'e coni. or franchise' of the• Gre

1fr. KERR : It does not, and I have not franchise' I v-enture to say that l'hese vast said BJ•::~hing to that c>ffect. The hon. gentle­ undntakings can bo compared to local mat, c.~;L; that m.mbers of the Opposition authorities. The local authorities manage \\He looking after ihPir WPalthy friends out vast rcycnncs, and the people who find these side. That is a dclibrrat0 mis:;tatenwnt. moneys should have some say in regard to The Homo Secretary is not s0rions. He the expenditure. If the question of health evid ntly does not under ,tand that 90 pet· steps in. surely the ratepayers who con­ cent. of the ratepayers in the Greater Bris­ stitute the majority of the people living in bane area) whose intnrcsts 'vc are looking a district "ill have the good sense to clean after b.v moving this amendment, arc peopl-e up their own district! They will do equally on the basic wage. The Homo Secretary has as \vcli as the man who is not paying a to recant to make this "hcan'' to\vards it. There is no a1~gument definite statement, that, if this amcndmeni agaic~t the occupier having a vote-I say is ag-NC'd to by the Committee, no person that he has the same right to a vote as. who is a permanent resident or who has an anyone else. The amendment gives the interc·'t in any district will suffer a hardship. occupier the right to vote. The time The Home Sl>cretarv knows that somewhere has arrived when any seotio!l of parliamen­ between 70 per cent: and 80 per cent. of the trr rians should ha vo more sense than to population of the Greater Brisbane area are arrogate to themselves the sole privilege of ratepayers. W c are in the fortunat? posi~ being the friends of the man on the basic tlon that the majority of the people are wage. Let us consider the matter as a 'atepayers and would have a vote under this whole, and from the point of view that this amendment. We have to re>alise that there is a measure for the benefit of the people. is an esRential difference bet11·een tho If the amendment is accepted, that desire­ parliamentary franchise and the franehise in will be secured. connection with local government. The area Mr. SWAYNE (llfirani): Nothing cou1d' itself is one important factor. Again, Parlia­ be fairer than the amendment of the hon. m nt pasees legislation, and the local autho­ member for Logan, which propos-es that the rities merely carry out that legislation. That franchise for the election of aldermen in it a difference. Also, the interests of Parlia­ the <·itv of Brisbane ohall be givPn to ment and the responsibilities of Parliament propertv owners and occupiers. It provides arc va tly different from the interests ar:d that an\·one who rents a house in Brisbane· responsibilities of local authorities. shall h~Y-e the right to vote for an .alder­ Mr. BPLCOCK: You allow ev-erybody to man. \Vhat more do 1 he Government want? exercise the franchise in connection with Apparent):~- hon. members opposite are very the major responsibility, and you refuse it anxious that the casual traveller should in connection with local authorities. have a vote. I heard some hon. member oppos;te remark that that person contributes Mr. KERR: The hon. member knows that. towards the taxes. but I sav he does nothing if there is a loan to be raised in connection of the kind. We all kno\v how easy it is with a local authority, every adult in the to got on the Queensland parliamentary roll. benefited area is not given a vote. Only Anvonc who is here for a few weeks oon the mtepa•-crs gd a vote under thes,e cir­ bec'onre a voter. During a merely temporary Ct1mst.anccR. There is no consistency in presence in Brisbane he may have the oppor­ reg-ar-d to the .attitude taken up by the tunibr of yotin(r in an election on a vital Government in this matter. As to saying point which m.(v lead to the rating of pro­ that we ar-e trying to rob a certain section perty up to its total value. He may of tlw community of the vote, the amend­ have the opportunity of voting on the expen­ ment would not do that at all. diture of loan money right up to the limit, Mr. CARTER: Of course it would. and tlwn he mav leuve the place after the harm is done. ·Perhaps he will vote for· Mr. KERR: The people who have all the incurring expenditure because he thi?ks it inter•·'t are the occupiers, who may be will be a temporary advantage to himself. termed permanent residents after three or Some of the works that may be proposed, six months. \V e should not give a vote to may be in the nature of relief work and n·ery person who floats into the town for a will not be of a reproductive character, and month nr two. as possibly the votes of these there mav be no chance of their ever paying. people would be the deci-ding factor. Possibly some prospect of enjoyment may_ be The HOME SECRETARY : That is the same opened up to him in the form of gott_mg· argument you used when objecting to the recreation gratis and also free tram ndes adult franchise in connection with the and other things that will influence irrespon­ Federal Parliament and State Parliament. sible voters. \Ve must remember the great powers which the Greater Brisbane Council Mr. KERR: There is a vast difference will possess. After doing all the harm b<'l wecn the adult franchise in connection he possibly can a casual resident may with the parliamentary elections .and the go mY a v leaving the burden on the adult franchise in connection with loc~l peonle \vho ha,·e acquir<'d propert:; in authoritv elections. The amendment is Rri,;_,b -{!~c. some of whon1 havP b0cn "\"~ ·Jrk­ perfect!,; justified. Taxation should not be ing for the greatest part uf their lives imposed when those who have the oppor­ to acf!uire their own homes. The casual tunity of imposing it go scat free. When travellers can drift out leaving others to you talk a bout giving a vote to every person carrv the baby. I do not think that any in the community irrespective of any other Quocn,]ander can consci-entiously urge that factor, ;1 ou are only pledging yourself to such a franchise as that is right. The pro­ secure (l_ greater number of Yotcs at election posal under the amendment is to limit the time. It is not common sense. Take the franchise to those who own or even tempo­ 11etropolitan Water Supply and Sewerage rarily rent a house in Bri,bane. Board. Is that giving the best results under n popular franchise? Of course it is not. iYh. 2\IrLArHLAN: Doe~ the amendment 'rake the Brisbane Tramway Trust. Should propose to make it compulsory to register we get the best results by a system of adult the occupier's name? [Mr. Kerr. City of Brisb:we Bill. [14 OcTOBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 153£F

Mr. S"\\'AY::'-JE: The amendment is verv Clause 4-" City of BrisiJanc-Bounda·· ''""][ dra 'm. Once it is in the Bill i"t rics "- re1nain8 for thos0 adininistering the n1easure ·Mr. KERR (Eno(lgtra) : I beg to moYe· to see that all bona fide occupwrs get votes, the following amendment:- no matter bv what means. If the amend­ ment is carried, it will mean that every­ "On linos 4 to 11. page 3, ol1lit the· one who happens to occupy a house, no words- matter how temporarily, will haYe a vote, ' (i.) The Cities o£ Brisbane and South: and it will be the duty of the Minister for Brisbane: the time being to see that he gets it. I ' (ii.) Tho Towm,. of J:;!am,iJton, think we should be justified in going further, Ithaca, Too\Yong, \\ 1ndsor, Sanagato, and insisting- that the control of the Greater and v\'ynm;m; Brisbane of the future shall be loft in th8 ' (iii.) The Shires of Balmoral, Bel­ hand, of tho'o who are permanently resident Inont, Coorparoo, Enoggera, Ke~ron,. in the nlar<'. I think that is a fair contdnr". per Gillies \\'oil head of popnlrd~io'l of £9 2c. The Comrmt!e' Gledeon , Wellington llnn'-nn \Vinstanley have to look at this dn<:·9 of the local PA11lS. guthoritic'9 emhraer'd in th0 scheme ehall bo ,\yl.. <.;, '\"nE-;, :nr. Petf·nnn ).11'. PP:l~f\ pr,oled. Th0 lo"ical result wlll l~P thnt the Ynw\8"' , \Yils{)n rntrpq:n::rs 1n the o·1]ter nrNJ, w11J haYe an "cldition·•l lo::d of mdebt<,dness rola<'e

·.n~euuc per ratcpa.-yer received frorr-1- tho area ;\Ir. KERR: You could say China. and included in rr,y amendme:;t will be £10 be just rrs logictl. · · J.4s. 4d., and tbe revenue received outside Hon. J\1. J. KIRWAN: There is no logic in lhat arc'a is £3 16s. 6d. The increased L indebtedness per ratepayer outside th" area your arguniCr: which I propo"e to exclude will amonut to J\Ir. KERR: There is. Why should these £22 :s. 1\'hil.e it imposes that adclttional pccple be asked to can·~· the burclen of the lw.rdcn on a certain ~ection of the com­ wa tcr <1nd soweragn arks in the city? munity, the inhabitants of the inner zone Let us quote the figures in connection with arc going to bo relieved to the extent of the )fctropolitan \Vater Supply and Sewer­ £9 C . Sd. p.cr head. ·when the indebtcdnes,o age Board. 'I'he loan indebtedness of the i.;; poo1c.::l) ovct' the ·whole zone it avt:ragcii Metropolitan \Vater Supply and Sewerage £31 10s. 6d. per ratepayer. Of that amount, Board is £5,651,000, and the average rate it 11 ill be found that the outsir'e arc 1 hn' will possibly be 6d. in the £1. I ven­ had an impc,ition of £22 Ss. 6d., and the ture to sav that it will be another iJ"idc area is relieved of £9 Gs. 9cl. per twenty year: before the water and sower­ head. Of course. that is based on the age s'.'rYir.es con1e 'vithin many miles p·o!Jcrtion of lWople in each of the :treas. of the J\loggill Shire Council, and, per­ In the matter of intercet alone in th" haps, forty years before they come within 5..Jnile radius there wlll be an averago the vicinity of Cedar Creek. It is not pro­ dVing per ratermyer in tlw inside cu·ea of posed to bring under this Dill the source £1 5s. lCci., and an average increased of the water and the pumping station of indebteclnoss in the outside area of £1 5s. 2d. the Metropolitan \Vater Supply and Sewer­ I haYo no intention of roneating my seco:;d age Board. l'(·ading speech, but in- this morning's The a' ''rage water rate per builcling is " Courier'' I notic;: it is propos· d by th(~ £6 19s. 9d. 'The peoplo in the city are Bri,;bano City Council to spend £18,000 of getting this water. It is not proposed to lo.u1 rnoncy 011 the in111roven1ent of tho extend the water-mains to the ratepayers who Bcoroodabin baths. :\lv constituent,; in live in the Moggill Shire, and it is very Jlart· of the Enoggera electorate will unjust to bring all these people within the be called upon to bear their propor­ Greater Brisbane area. tion of those improYements. ;rhey will The total loan indebtedness per building not re~eive any benDfite, but will have IS- b choulder the responsibility. There is no £ s. d. cmnrnunity of int:?-n.~sts there. I ,, ant again Local authority indebtedness per to emphasise the fact that the Eno,;;p;cra ratepayer ...... 28 5 9 ciectorat8 const1tutcs one-aunrtcr of the v,hol.~ ::Y1etropolitan Water Supply and area of the Grea tcr Brisbane scheme. Tho Sewe,·age Boal'd indebtedness 102 1 Mogg·ill Shire has a density of twenty ---- Pl~r::::ons per square mile. Be1mont fifty-seven Total indebt,edness per rate- pet· £TUare m.ih), rTinga lrJa thirty per SC)naro payer 130 6 10 mile, and Yeerongpilly thirty-eight per "::(\Hare mile. I realise the same as other hon. members, .The folioy;,·ing figure..; <;:,ho,v how the donsit~i that the local authority rates and other rates vf people in Brisb1.Ec con1parcs with tlu~ which ha1·e been imposed in the city of {len~ity in sonH~ other citie3 in tlH~ world:~ Brisbane must very largely be considered in conjunction with the exorbitant taxation People per Anc. to-day; but is there any justification for trying relieve these people in the city, Birn1ingham_ 19 to after they haYe had the benefit of the expen­ ~Tottingha111 24 diture, and put the burden on the outside 20 Chir~g:O people '"ho are to receive no compensating Balbmor;c 30 9 \Ycllington 7 benefit I mo.'t emphatically protest on Greater J3ri: bane 1 behalf of my electorate against that being done. The tendency is for the population of \Y c on this side of the J-J ouse have net Grerrtcr Brisbane to become more dense than adoptcd any parochial attituclc. \Ve do nm eyer. There are tens of thousands of vacant f~l~-· that it is in1pos~iblP to work a Greater allotments within 3 miles of the General Brisbane schernc. \Ve think it can be done, Post Office, and t-here is nothing to stop the but 've are looking for 1neans vvhcreby people fr0m building on those allotment~. no injustice will be inflicted, and whcreb:; As the population becomes denser what Is greater harmony of \vorking· will be obLtincd going to ha pp en: There will be a greater in the area. J'\o one can reil rH8 tluH tho expenditure of loan money required in that rnountains, hilL, and yacant land in ~:1oggilL particular area,, and who is going to shoulder an1ounting to 1nany square n1ilcs, aro going that burden? People who have no com­ to add to the efftciencY of the scheme. In munity of interests; people who are liYing lTpper I3rooklands, Gold Creek, and Cecla1· U"on their farms-people who are liYing on Creek there is not one residential area, and the produce obtained from rm·al land. there is not likelv to he anv for some \Vhy should the people in such parts V( ars: vet those nr€.1,;;; rnust bea{~ their ~bar;, of 1ny elcctoratP be brought under this of such' a loan as 1his amount of £18,000 scbC'mc any more than the people in for the I3ooroodabin baths in Forhtud0 other districts? Take the districts beyond \' allo:v. There is no co1nnltH:ity of intel'Cf'.tS Bald Hills and on the J'\orth Coast line. in such an idea. If you sav that the people The people there baths. bane scheme. Hon. J\1. J. KIRW.\X: \Yhy not say China Hon. JI.I. J. KIRWAN: Do you not want a "\d1ilc you an~ about it? background to the city? [1llt. Kett. City of Brisbane Bill. [14 OcTOBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1541

Mr. KERR: The hon. gentleman is looking Mr. FRY (llurilpa): The basis of thi& at it as an oil painting only. There are echeme is the area, and the area which has more solid facts required to make this scheme been decided upon by the Home Secretary a success. \Ve want no getting up in the embraces the cities of Brisbane •and South clouds and building· on a theory. We want Brisbane; the tmvns of Hamilton, Ithaca, tD get it in black and white and see where Toowong, \Vindsor. Sandg-ate, and Wyn­ we stand in this regard. num; and the shires of Balmoral, l3elmont, Hon. M. J. KIRWAX: You have no Yision. CoorparDo, Enogg-era, Kcdron, Moggill, Sherwood, Stephens, Taringa, and Toombul, :Mr. KERR: It is all very fine to talk rtnd parts of the shirr .. of Tingalpa and nbout a broad outlook and a broad vision, Ye·Cl'ongpill~·. In view of the fact that the but that does not load anvwhere. Some men aclivities of local government in that area who talk about taking a" br·oad outlook and and the other serYi(.'C'3 ·\\Thich arc essential to that sort of thing are looked upon as marvel­ the city performed at present by the Metro­ lous men; but sometimes you have to forget politan \Yater Supply and Sewerage Board, the'e things and to consider what it means the Tramway Trust, and the Fire Brigade to t-he people. It must be remembered that Boards, and Cemetery Trusts are to be con­ this legislation is a direct attack on a large trolled bv the new council. we must consider number of my constituents in the Enoggora t·he quesfion of area from the standpoint of electorate. In conclusion, I want to emphasise whai will best serve the interests of the the fact that no city in the world in regard people as a whole. \Ve know that local to which I can get any information has authoritih in the past have been asking for started off with such a large area as is pro­ greater powers. This Bill gn·es all th<::> nosed in connection with this Greater Bris­ po'\vers desired, and. if those po\Yers are­ bane scheme. Every city that I have read given to them, it affects the question of about has started with a, concentrated area. ere a ter a rea. The que,tion of health is a, :'\o one can prohibit a person from matter which affects the interests of the building- on a 16-perch allotment. >Yhich people within all parts of the area within is in accor-dance with the Local Authorities the 10-mile radius iust a.s it does the interests Act. NatLYorld, and start >vith a mwller hane-in fact. I hope into all parts of the area. and as tlw population in that area Statc-bc<"ause it is eas.- and cheap to pro­ increases iJC densitv the area should be dnce 0leetric li::rhr in ,;omparison with the extended. I ha n "included a fairly large old method of lighting. area 1n my amendment. It co1npriscs 99a The question of parks and reserves does SC)r~_re n1iles, with an average population of not c pplv so much to the outside areas >ts to 1,902 )lf'rwns to the square mile. That, to the thickly-populated areas, but we know my mind, is a fair and equitable arrange­ that., as populr.tlon gro\vs and cong-estion n•cnt. I am ir:duding the hYo cities of incr0asrs. br0athing spaces and parks are· Bri'h1IH' and South Brisbane, the four towns r0quired for children to romp about in. It is of Hamilton, Ilhaca, Toowong. and \Yindsor, aho necessarv that men who havt' put in the and the shire' of Balm{)]·al. Coorparoo, whole of the' week at hard work should have Enoggera, Slephens, and Taringa. It cu.n an onportr;nity to get out an1ongst the trees­ jmtk be said that these local authorities FLnd rc-:-t. The provision of road.s and hridges can bo amalgamated without any trouble. must intcr·e tlw greatest benefit. I Mr. FRY: Of course, a main rood would an1 l'f'SllOn~iblo to a large nu m her of consti­ o·o ri~ht throug-h the area. and I take it hlPnts 1rho ara going to h~xc an extra .;;.cnld~link up the town of Sand,. ate with tho burden imposr d on their shoulders without, far distant shire of Mogg·il!. for instance. so far. as I can S<~e, their getting any con1- and that }·,inp: so both those localities are pcnsabng adyantagcs. I go so far as to f'aV interested in the q1H ·'tion of whether ·we that. ":hen the time arriv<'s when the pop,;. ~h{)nld haYe a greater 01· 1sn1aller a.rcn. lthon Inrre.aM·s 111 the outside areas through Bdore vou c::m link ll]l the centres I have the greater facilities that are giwn and a nlf'ntion~D it is 11C'C'ts~ary to build bridgns. gTcater cornn1unity of interpst arises. I shall At the prec

Lucia, and another one further up stream, At 12.30 p.m., so as to giYe easy access to Ips,vich. Take Mr. F. A. CooPER (Bremer), one of the mv own doctorate. It is oituated about 300 panel of Temporary Chairmen, relieved the :y·ards from a large area of land \vhich would Chairman in the chair. provide homes for 60,000 people, but, as tho :Ylr. Gr.F.nsox: Tho Metropolitan Wato,· diYides that are:t from my Supply and Sewerage Board is foolish to 42lectoratc, it is necessary for a person desir. follow the river. ing ta go there in a vehicle to trav('l acto"'.; Vict-oria B:·idge and around the Toowong Mr. FRY: The Metropolitan \Vater Supply road, a distance of about 5 tniles. and Sewcra:;o Doard will be distributmg 1ts sewage at the mouth of the river. \Ye :Nh. LLOYD: It is onlv ton minutes from haYC; two authorities to consider in tha.t tho Toov\~oug Rai1wa~- St.atlon. rc•·pect. I am afraid that, if the J\1etrop.olitan :\Ir. FRY: If the hon. member for Kelvin W atcr Supply and Sewerage Board does not GraY(! }s going to .a~'k the people firFt of all make more ha•te with its work, it will not t.o go from \Yest End to the Central Railway be able to collect suf!icicnt rey·;nue t-o finish Station, and then get in a train and go out the svstem to distribute the sewerage. It to th0 Tcowong Railw \Y Station, and then will have spent the whole of its revenue hire a ub or alk for three-quarters of an before the scheme comes into operation, and hDur or an hour to St. Lucia, ho is asking it wiH be left to the citv 0° Brisbane to us to conde1nn the BilL because \VC aro asked collect the revenue to cm-n'plete it. to support it because of its economic value. I have pointed out that the scheme should be founded on good main l'oads. I am not The CHAIR2\1AK: OrdPr! The hon. referring to contributory roads. I made o-cnt1P'THt.n is not connecting his rcn1arks "\Yith f,-Jme reference to the road running along t.he the amendment. river to Toowong. Mr. FRY: I :Lm not going unqualifiedly The TE?o.IPORARY CHAIK\IA:'i: Order! to support' the amendment. Before we <'an The hon. member is discussing matters out­ support or condemn it we want to find out side the scope of the amendment. how it affects the Bill. If we had a bridge constructed to St. Lncia it would open {\p :,rr. FRY: The a.menclmcnt has for its that area considerably, and, if a bridge object the alteration of the size of the area. were constructed further up the river giving I have pointed out that main roads are not eapy access to Ipswich, instead of having only confined to the city of Brisbane. the present Ipswieh roa.d. we would have a Hon. J\1. J. KIRWA'S': Main roads are a direct road to Ipswich, which \vould also be matter for the Main Roads Board. an arterial road. J\Ir. FRY: Main roads are jnst as essen­ Let me point out why there should be some tial to a city as the main arteries are to co-ordination of serviees regarding road con­ the human body. I pointed out the expense struction. Not long ago the Toowong Town of tlto maintenance of arterial roads. I Council and the Brisbane Citv Council had point-ed out also that there was only one sorne diffcrenf'o of opinion Concerning the road leading to Ipswich, and that there was repair of the Toowong River road. I do not only one ,:oad suitable for he:wy traffic know ju't how that question has bc·en settled. leading through Toowong, and that was the but the road still remains in a state of dis­ River road. repair. Thoso difficulties would be avoided At 12.32 p.m., under the Bill. In fixing an area to be The CHAIR1fAN resumed the chair. known as the Greater Brisbane area vou mu't take into consideration the growth· of Bris­ ]Ur. FRY: A road has been proposed to bane during the last few years. During the vo via Kenmoro, Pullen Vale, ?o.Ioggill, and last few years the city has extendBd con­ Riverview ferry. ffiderably, and during the :occrs to come the ::\Ir. GLEDSON: There is a road there now. growth will be very extensi\·e and at a rate Mr. FRY: There is not a good nwin "oad more rapid than in the past. I'Yhilst there n1ay not be any con1munitv of int-erests be­ or bridge. tween the people who !in< saY, around the The CIL\IRJ\TA?\1 : Order ! Order ! I ask Enoggcra reservoir and those 'in the metro­ the hon. gfmtleman to connect his remarks polis, it must b:; borne in mind that com­ Hp \vith the amendment. I understand he munity of intero'·ts is extending as years go has alreadv been told to do so bv the Tem- by. I thmk one of the wFakncsses in the porary Chllirn1an. ~ Bill is that. whilst thf! Gowrnment propose :Mr. FRY: I am connecting my remarks to bolre in Sandgate. \Vvnnum. etc .. t.hev do up with the greater area proposed under the not propose to take in the Brisbane RiY';,T. Bill. I favour the greater area. The Hmm SECRETARY: The river 1s a I do not wish to detract from the argument national highway. of the hon. member for Enoggera that t.he question is governed by finance. He pointod ~1r. FR'..-: That is a matter of opinion. out that the people of :Moggill .and Sandgate I .am prepared to argue that the Brisbane would have to contribute towards the baths Ri,·er should haYo boon included. The onlv argumrmt that. could be advanced agains't which it is proposed to establish in Fortitude Vallev at. a cost of £18,000. I \Yish to h0ar the inclusion of the river would be with respect to that portion of the river from a further argument on this smaller area before point whPre it leaves the boundarv of the I decide to support it. 'Greater Brisbane area and extends' towards Hm;. I,Y. H. BARC\ES (H't·nn•:;n): I Ipswich. It might also be argued that as ec nnot vote for the' amendment in its J •rcsem the Bri-.bano _Rin'r is a national high,Z·ay, fc.rm. I qHitP realie2 that there is a VN)' cPrtain <'On!phca tions. n1ight arise in connec­ great deal of force in the arguments of the tion with other rivers and harbours in hon. tnemhcr for Enogvera. ReRll?, I 'Queensland if the river wero included in the c:-i.nnot ~oe +hat there is ai1y virhv_:_. ·whatever •chc:no. I am not prepared t.o say whether in ha ,-in v::r:v con~iderablc-. and Mr. \VRIGHT: ·what does Sandgatc say 1\11\··re tho~t' .s.ts of the eomn1unit:~. takiug the sixteen shires and following their prco.cnt boundaries, quite disregarding the The Ho:uE SECRET.IRY: Th .t is tlw onh· \\·a0 we shaU ever gef a Greater Brisbane.· conditions that will operate under the new scheme. It should be possible e.-en at this Ho~. IY. H. RARXES: The hrm. member stage to altPr the p1·oposed bount1aries. As for Eno~·gera said that the gTL'atcr ar(1 a the hon. mem1ber for IVYnnum said, it ·won!d l1avc Lho effect o-f driYing pr:-ople should not be npc(s·ary to "keep strictiy to outsHlc !he pre•,cr,t radius. Tlut is ono of a. 5-mile radius or a 10-mile radius. \V c should tht"' 1' 1-"lSOlls hy I fayour th(~ lnrgrr area. a.dopt an an•a that will include those places T b JiP\~0 i·' J.t ·with m1r excellent \Y,1rkcr:;:.' tlwt arc at present densely populated and ]lwrllin~·s Act we shnll pre;-pnt slum· lwin~ whlch realh have a cmnmunitv of interests, i'<1ablished in the· citv. and shal1 l1aYe ~ and also th.;,sc placF~ th:1t are ·]i];:p\y to havP "iLler a reo in tho citv ·for the buildi:w up n con1munity of interests within a very short of inr~n-frie- .. If t_hP~rc happens to b~ ar s~•ace of time. I am quite satisfied that a '€'YtPnston of 1ndu_~tries iu any parti-cu]ar 11\rgP part of the arP, which it is proposed area. the result will be a further extension i-o brill[\' in is not r~;oing 1o brndh in any cf thC' ~'l'<'d~o:1 of \Yol'kcrs' hmnP<;:, outsiJe shape or form, v;·hilP at the sal.le time it t vcn rhe radius laid down hv the Bill. _....\t ., ill be '·addled "-ith certain financial rccpon­ rn:· rat0. it is ~~oinli to 1Yide;1 the ar<- ,t verv sibilitirs. That is very unjmt, and that part <'onsidPr_tb1~-. alld fc)r that ren,3on I con~idc'r conld be eliminated from the Bill without the larger nr0a 1~·ill lw bcth•r in th< long affecting the principle. l'lln. I admit the-~,' will be :-onll? verv I ;nmld ask the Minister at this stage to glaring anomalie0c. but that will ha11pmi, g\~r'' furihr-r co:.~jdcration to thr question of no matter what the radius is. r ·:luding from tlw Bill those int0rests which l wi ve brouaht in those ne' rrr to the cit: thon is at present intended. pla.ccs '>·hich by reason of the~ population You rnnnot t01J 111~ that an imaginary line and othrr eon~1dPrat1on.-: f'houl or sn i-; p-oing to null~e all the dif­ Lrought in. T!1at i-; ,~·here the n1lstake was frr0nrc in tho 1 VOrking of thr- schr,;ne. I rnadc, hut f;.f'eing th 't the rniRtak;~ ha~ been coul,] not sapper! th,) amendrnAnt, as it made I am prc-pared to vote for the greater area and vote: against the an1endn1e_lt ou~rl .Pxcludr fro;n tho arf'a the to\Yl1 of 8and;catc. '' hich should bo included: yet _Mr. STZER (SawlrJale): I, too, regret J kl1 :1-Y' tlr1t Lv Drc0pting the bigger area Wf' tnat I ccnnot ~c'c exaetlv eve to eYe ;yith the ~hall h:-~Yr to bring- in n cPrt tin ::~mount of l'on. mom lwr for Enoggcl·a on · thjs voint. l"'YJd wl1irh "·ill YJot be benefited bv it and Yet 1 quit_e sympathi'e with him in the in reg·ad to "·hich an injustice will ·he done. -DbJect of lll:J an1endn1ct1t, b~·cause I b.-licve I suzgest to the l\1inister thr.t ho should lf!r. Shcr.} 1544 City of Bri 'bane Bt:ll. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill. make a new boundary line indudino· areas tlro other hand, is a. large area, but has a: on tJ:c basis of true commur~ity intere~ts, and small population. It is a separate shire. ')lakmg adequate provision for outside areas \Ye should do something to ma'ce a start, to con1c in within a rca~wnable length of [lUd thcTc is nothing in n1r ainPrHhnent time. I would also suggest that the hon. to prcYcnt the extrni'ion of the area later ~1ern~cr for Enoggera should n1akc provision 1 .' Ordinance or Order in Council. I-lon. rn hrs &mondment to allow, if desired of J;Jembcro will re-::ollect that tlw \Yindsor other areas <'Olning under the sch0me ~t a Town Cmmcil took in part of Jthaca and subsequent date. If the amendment is part of Enog·gera by Orders in Council, and carried. it will mean that we shall have to "'' these other arec become populated and amend the measure later on to allow of other require> the facilities which a GreatPr llris­ local bodies coming under the scheme, as bane c 111 provide, so will it be nght that there YYill utherwisc l1c no provision to' tLcy should be included. 1 hope the Minis­ enable tha~ to be done. ter 'vill consider thi3 clause agniuJ and Jelay its passage through Connnittec. Thr~r(~ is. ThNe is one point in faYom· of the amend­ l"l desperate hurry tcJ get it through to-day, ment. 1\'hile sume hon. members &re adYO· and I am sure that a little more consrdera· cJting a bigger area, th~ :Minister, under the tcoe1 on the nart of the Minister might Bill as it stands ut present, dot<• not propose bein0· about a· eolution. lie sePms to have to extend some of those services which are sorl1{? leaning in favour of rrt~,~ yje-w, and it so es~ential to the greater area. It appears 1,l-ill not do any harn1 to postpollf' thP dausc to me that there is no particular need for uMil a lutcr hour of the sit tin g. the greater area at the present time unless we are prepared to O'ivo those additional I quite agree that \Yynfmm is, populated servicf's which the out~ide area·~ are .asking to such an extent, as the hon. member for for. 1 would ask the Minister to gi.-e that \\'".\'lllnun baid~ as to justify its inclusion in matter consi.dcration vvh,~n "Te f'OITie to the ihis -cheme, and that conld very well be relevant clame. doHe bv Orrler in Council. If tbe hon. lllClllbcr~ for \.Yvnnun1 desires he -can rr1ove I \Yould like to know v hether the exten­ ar~ arnPJHJ.mcnt ~ t·J have it included in the sion of th0se facilities is going· to be made Bill a~ it stantis, since the n1attcr is a non­ to the outlying: aroq,s within a reasonabh~ ]Jart.y one, but a f't~trt has to be rnadc \Yi~h space of tin1c. \Ye do not care t{) take on a a smaller area and it i obvious 11u~,t ePrta1n big financia 1 respon ,ibility in the ontlying r,art' of t.hc a ;·ea co,·crcd by the Bill should areas unless we have something to gain in not be brmwht in at om '. I parhcularlv the shape of additional serYiccs. That is a :;,tre~s the t.:r~nrnent that the Jrioggil1 Shire quid pro quo which should be considered. has no cor.J~lnunitv of intere~.ts \rith the The nresent Brisbane Citv Council and the rrn1aindcr of the ~arra. ancl shm1ld noL be whole of the councils in" the metropolitan a'kod to carry additioual burdc!JS. area YC ~1:r. KERR (Eno(!arm): I qnite agree ·were doillg ?" 1 thot t -crr> is room for dilfcrenc<'S of individnal Take the shire of Toombnl and the citv c.pinon HR to sorno of the a1·cas ,,~hich I of Bri,banc. \Yhere the citv of Brisbane have excluded. Thcv hnve not boon oxclt1ded lws an indchtcc,nc·s of m·or '£1.000.000 the for any particular reason, except :l1at I ihink ,'hire t : Tomnbul has an indebtedJFS:; of \VO 1nust h.)se a :.tarting point for the ''.bent £100,0C~. Is it not nctcnt on the face Greater Brisbane area. I believe flrm.lv that, of it t.hat. if vou comnel Toombul to come when C'Oi11!11Urtity o[ interc~ts ch'!Ha.I~d..; lt, in under this scheme, the JlOOple in that area thev should bo brought into the Gn 1tc-r will haYe to pav through the nose in the pay­ Brisbane ar0a. ment of interest and redemption for an,\' The Hmrr: SxCRETARY: \Yhv did von briug bcnellts thcv mav obtain? I knmv thC' :Minis­ in Er:.oggera? · · ter proposes to,, ease the burden a litt.le by Mr. KERR: The hen. c;ontlc m.m is jn,ti­ (,pr(•ading- the repayment of the loans ovr-r a fkd jn asking me tha't onP~tion. The period of forty :,-care. I am not oYorlooking Enoggcra area is a larg0 one-. anrl in .so1ne that. r.Iaccs is onl.v about 2 miles from the The HmiE SECRETARY: Tho hon. gentleman Ckrwral Post Office. :Yiost of it is Yvithi'l in arriving at his figures has made .no allow· 5 miles of the General Post Ofl:ko. "' th·'t ance for the result of reproductive loans. it is impossible to exclude it. ]I,Ioggili, on J\'[ost of the loans are reproductive loans. [Mr. Sizer. C;ty of Brisbane Bill. [14 0CTOBEH.] City of Brisbane Bill. ]545

::Hr. KELSO : It was the duty of the hon. trrin1:; a l'nproduction insofar as t}rc rat&­ gentleman is give us full financial details payers have annually to pay a considerable '" to hoiV the scheme is going· to affect ~ 1uount in principal and interest. Can the tho different local authorities. hon. g0ntlernan show n1c 1vhcre. except in The Ho:\IE SECRE'rARY: I quoted a table lo_dlS for electric lighting purposes, these giving that information. lo<:n;:; are n"productivo? Tlw IT. mm SECRETARY: They represent 40 ::'11r. KELSO: That table does not deal LWl' cent. of tho repayn:enis. at oJl wit.h the Tevenue that it is considoTed will be obtained by the expenditure of this :VIr. KEL::iO: I prcwme that the hon. money on reproductive work. To ease the g~.:ntll1 llHtn in rnaking up his table has taken burden the :Minister proposes to pool the 1hnt into consideration. debts and make them payable over a period ThP HmrE 8ECRETAllY: Did you ever hear of forty years. Certainly that is a conces­ of lorrn2- for rnarkots and \'vharves? swn, hut, unless somthing further is done ::Ylr. KELSO: Yes: but they are not a the incre:aso in rat.e-s in the outside shires: Y'-'ry ~ ig thing. The hon. n1ornber has taken which are comparatively sparsely populated, that into consideration in his table. wlll be a very crushing burden. The Ho~m SECRETARY: Of coursP, I have. The HOl\IE SECRETARY: If the hon. gentle­ P1an lu1d read my table he would not saY :\h. KELSO: I will t:,ko the hon. gentle- t~ - 1llan's a~,yn figur.Ps. The Hm!E SECRETARY: Take the flat rate. M:r. KELSO: I have read it and I fail tman supplied we find that the loan against the larger area at the present time. ratt' for the shin· of Kedron in 1923 was Even the area outlined in the amendment is .08d. in thP £1, but the consolidate-d loan too bi~- to start with. Thcro will be a nd<'' f,w the whole of the propose·d area tremendous amount of work in connection will b,, 1.65d. in the £1. ~,-ith oo-ordination, and the best thing· would The Ho~!E SECRE1'ARY: Do you know that l1ave been to have acoomplished our desires tlH' shire council of Kedron is going to build by evolutionary means. \Ve oould start with a bridg-e to take the tramways across? a small area, and then as the aldermen of the cih- found they had the capacity to . :\1r. KELSO: I am glad of that interjBc- carry out their functions over a wider area bon. becan8~", unfortunately, 1the shire they could issue an ordinance to the effect council is not building that bridge. that within the following month or two The no~JE S·ECHETAllY: It is going to do so. months they proposed to· bring in a certain :\fr. KELSO: It- anted to do so. but, adjoining shire, and, when thev had unfortunately, the Treasury cannot find the oo-ordinated the activities in connection with moiiCY. I have been in collaboration witll that shire, they could have widened their the ;hire council in approaching all the activities again. It has been stated this fin ant ial and banking institutions in .~ 1t3 morning that it is necessarv to commence L'itv. but • e have not bcHl able to rnnke a11v with a \vide area so that the various public arral!p;onwnts to finance tlrot bridg·>. and the utilities c.an be extended w those areas. It construction of the bridge is held up for has been argued that you must have a wide that Yorv reason. I would be pleased if area to allow tram" ays operated by the the hon. gentlt'man could assist the shire out Greater Brisbane Council to be extended throughout all those areas. The hon. mem­ of its difficulties. ber for Port Cm-tis during his second reading The Hcn•E SECRETARY: I am only showing speech wld us of what he saw in New Zea­ you that development is necessary. land, and by interjection admittBd that the :\lr. KELSO: It seems to me-and mv cal­ tramways extended beyond the boundaries culations ar·e fairly correct-that the- loan o: th~ citv of Welling-ton. There is no reason mte on the outside area.s will be doubled. v:hy, with a smaller area, these public utili­ ties that are really centred in the city itself Tho Hm1s SECRETARY: Take the general could not be extended to the outside districts rate. if necessary. The ~rgument against a smallm· :\Ir. KELSO: I am not taking the general area reallv loses Its force when it is said n tc-. I am showing hoiV the consolidated that public utilities cannot be carried be­ ra to will affect the shires in the outside yond the oonfines of the city. When the areas. ~-~risban(' Trc:_rnways Con1pany were operating~ ~.rr. f'ARn:R: They have low valuati for the shire of Moggill for 1923 was would be very popular in Toombul if he .07d. in the £1, and under iho cons

Mr. KELSO: Tho other en"' to which I r can hard!'' follow the hon. gentiem'll.n. wish to rdnr i;; the . The hon. gen~tleman talked a bout ~ornrnlnJitv There l.;; no loa~1 1ndebt(~'dne-;s tlwrr-. an() all of inh'rc~h in hi sec>ond reading spo~ch, of a sudden a loan r~to of 1.65d. will he which wus nry good from his point ot new. imposed on that area under the Bill. ht1t "ure!y to [;OodnPss thcro is no corn~ rr1unit of intcrrst:" 'Oll haYE" a rateable 0 if 'l'lH' Hmn: SEC!lEIAHY: Look at all the 1 bonofits they are going to rcceiYc. value of £14, -13,00') w"ithin an rea of 80 ~quare r.all, .lnd htyrJ!''d thqt yon hTn~ Mr. KELSO: I am glad tlw hon. gent!< . <1.11 area of .305 f"Qtnrc n1ilc v·ith a l'at,'l2.bln mnn hrts said ihaL Evcrythiug is going to value of £1,609,000 • I honestly bclie.-e that con1c in the future. \Y o are to ha Ye twcn;:~, the areas out:5-ide of this amendrncnt are wards in th~ city. I do not kno\Y whL.~t gc ing to ff'cl it so scYcrcl:v that wheu .tho suburb the hon. gentleman lives in <>nt he Ureatcr Brisbane Sf'hc-me ]:-; ir1 full opc:r;lhon. lives in ono of the outside sulmrLs.' "nd 1vhen the full financial dfect is felt by the people outside, they will bla.n1e hon. Mr. KING: He liYes on Ips,Yich road. meml-),~1 in this J-Iousc for not nw king Mr. KELSO: I am glad to hear ilun tho clearer cxac·tly \vhat the financial position Minister lives in such an aristocl·atil t.uLurb 1vas. For t}:lat reason I })ropose to support as Coorparoo. the amendment. Ml·. KING: :\'ot in Coorparoo-in Anncr­ Mr. MAX\YELL (Toou·onr!): I support ley. ihe amendment moved b.- the hon. member Mr. KELSO: ·whatever suburb the hon. for Enoggera. It seems io 1ne that the only gcntlcn1an 1nay live in, i£ he found it was idea the Minister has in mind is to Ameri- necessarJ· f~r the council to do wrk 0aniso the citv of BrisbaJlP. I do not know m that sectwn, what earthly hop·· >Yonld he of anv citv jn the British Dominions that have of gettmg that >~ork done >>ii·hin a has a~ arcua similar to th" nrca })l'OJY'~Pd in reasonable tin1e ,,.h0n thero is onlv one C<'nnection with this Greater Brisbane rcprcsentatiYo OUt of tWC!lltv to urc f;r that sdH'me, although I beli<'Ye that in tlw ar~a.? Fro1n the figures~ suvt)licd by the Uni,ed States of America tlwro are a couple il1mister, it appears that that mt•mber is of citir-~ whirh b1Yc an an L pqnal or nearly responsible, \vith others, for 385 ~quare 1nile~ pqunl to that area. I do not know that it of territory. >Yould he detrimental to hon• such a large The HOME ~ECRE"~ARY: You might as well ar0a in a comn1unitv fl.Uch as the LTnitcd ~,rgue on s1n11lar bncs about the electorate State~ of America. hl~t in a con1rnunit;v "'uch of the hon. mcn1ber for Burke. i'.S ours, ~.'/bere there is no con1n1unity of inteH•sts. it would certainh, bP clctrinwntal 11r. KELSO: The {'ireumstanccs arl' t.o the v hole of the a r( a. .J E:3t irnag·ine in a entrroly different. That particular ar 5·u~nent :voung Cduntry like QuPens]anJ comn1encing has been put up, and. it h<>s been Jll"OY~cl that to lav out a Greater C:itv of Brisbane com­ the cases arc not stmrlar. Up to the prc•scnt nrisi~~ an area of 385 · squ 'tl'C 1niles ! I each dtviswn has had at least t'•:cl.-e alder­ haYe lwrP :'l.n Pxtract fron1 a leading artidr­ n;en or councillors to attend to its ,,·ants. ·vi·hich ap11eared in the " Telegra]1h " o£ Now tho area Is to be enlarged to practi­ Monday. 28th January, 1924. Amongst other cally the oqui.-alent of a. parliamentary things the writer of this article says- electorate, and ono alderman is expected tO attend to 0ach lwgo wa1·d. Take the >Yard " Thoro is a notable diffPrence or represented hy th0 hon. mcmbcr for opinion upon the question of the area of Enoggera. I-Iow :is it possible fo-;· an\· one the Greater Brisbane. \Yhich ar&as rr>an to attend. reasonably to the >nu'Its of shall be included and >Yhich excluded? sueh a comnlunJtv ? At the outset then there is contro>,ersy .about what the Greater Brisbane is to . The Ho;~r_E SECRETARY: You support Ji.noggem bcmg mcludecl m the Bill? be. One might say that the question of area is all-important. It is possible to Mr. KELSO: I am only citing an example place under the control of the propos;· d t,; show how Impossible 1t is for one alder­ new council an unv.,·iclch~ area, or an man to attend to the "ants of such a tre,nen­ area. in other respects 11~workablc. \Vc ~.lous area. r.rhat is ono of the reason~ ·whY should not attain the good p;ovcrnnwnt l am advocating a strnt in a small wa," of the citv of Brisbane bv anv such pro­ As the aldermen feel they han' the capucit · cedure. There n1uc:t the~ be~ son1e rh,ci~ to, go further out, le;, t.hem go further out. Rion on thr question wbflt the cit~~~ i~ to y'lie arc puttmg an .Jroa of 385 Hlnare mile·< he-its limits must be defined. and wc mto the care of twenty men. >YllO >Yill have mu~d, recognise that the qn0stion of to S()O not only to the wants of the com­ limits i:: going to p1 a~r an itnportnnt mumty, but later on, by an Order in Council. part in the sucC'PSR or fai1urt" of thP Will have to care for the public utilities in whol<' scheme. On the other hand. we that huge arc•a of 385 square J!"lilcs. Tlw are told that the arf'q propos0d is not whole of that administration '.>:ill be left onlv comparable with thosP of otlwr to the tender merci"s of those twenh men ' greater' citif's. but that it is workable 1-vho,_ \VC _nHty _presume. wi_}l not lw e.Xpcrts. under the conditions that ill arise If, that IS going to be tnc:> C8"t:->, \\"(_' rnaY hore." 1 as.sun1c that the Grc:llr'r f' it.\~ of Bn ban.l' Later on the >nitcr of this article srr>"s- wtll go back considcralJ!.•-, n.nd will not _,wkP the progress that has bec'n n1adc during lh{~ " It is to lw noted that- !1l<'ll who haYC la~t docad~ or so. had pr<1rtirnl cxpcrif'nC'f' in Joc:d j:rovern­ ment. who han• ('Ontrollcd th1· aff·irs oi Fr0m the statetnNll of the :\linistcr we ·hJme of the very area:. whirh \Yill b,·, t:nd that tlw rl!tcahle area \Yithin the 5-mile include-d in the Grcat.··r Brisbane, ofl"Pl" mdins is £14,413,COO. That is OYPr a:1 area vigorou.s criticism of the means b~Y ·whir11 d i.:O square miles. Outside that radius it is proposed to attain a lwtter loco.l there is an arc;, of 305 sqnarc miles which govornment oYrr a \Yider fi0ld. Surely has a rateable vain<' of £1.609.000. Is that it should pn- us to listen to th0 criticiHn any argurnont in fa YOUr of a restrict M area; offered by s~ch men. For if the Greater [.Zffr. ICelso. City of Brisba'W Dill. [14 OCTOBER.] City of Brisbane Bill, 1547

l3ri,banc Bill is not a measure aiming Mr. MAXIVELL (1'oou·ong) : I beg to sole}y ;Jt the ht";.t intere~.ts of the citizens, move the following amendment:- 1\'h:li~ j~ it? VVe do not desire a measure " On lines 11 .and 12 omit the words­ th;'.t "ill mcrdv collect and absorb a cf loea( authoritic·s. provjde for ' The Mayor shall be elected by the ovc·r of the \Vater and sewer­ electors of the City voting as in one the tram,, and 'the flTe el;;ctorate,' lr lYe us with nothing but with a view to inserting the words- bureaucracy, which nu1y suhscniont to the Govern­ ' At the first meeting of the Council mp:J~. \Yln,t \YC' ·~·ant. and 1.vhat WC' need, er at "Ome adjournn1cnt thcr0of, and and oYon·bodv knows it-. is the bette·r thereafter at the first meeting of the ·nrn''";nt of Brisbane, the capital city Council after the conclusion of every Q· c·nslnncl. \7\·e ought to be wise triennial election of aldermen or at ('110UiJ;1t to discoYt:r ho\Y great an aTea some adjournment thereof, the alder­ ;yp ( cr1 :;:c• fC'h- include in such a Greater men present shall choose one of t.heir Dri ·banc." " number to be Mayor, v-·ho shall. except as hereinaft>Br provided, hold offioe I ycnturc to say there are a gTe-a.t many until the conclusion of the next triennial pr-oplr· ;d!fl. like myself, honestly belieYe in e-l0njon oi aldcnncn.' " ·tlw prillcir)le of a Groatcr Brisbane. I have ·ahYay:-; r:.dYnri'icd a Greater Br.isbane, but it The pri'nciple I desire to establish is the ~eem~ To Il!C thnt, in including an area suC'h election of mayor by the aldermen. and not as is proi'O"'d in this Bill, the Government by the electors. I ha vo not had any experi­ arc goi1c,, to overburden the scbeme. The enc-e of local government wm-k sine~ the ~\et 'citv of Adc·laide compri,.es an area of 3,700 was amended providing that the mayor shall acre:': 1 he rit.v~ of :M:elbouTne COITilH'i&es be elected by the electors, but the principle an arC'Ft Df 7,740 acres; Sydrwy con1prises an I am enunciating is in accordam.J with that area of 3,195~ acres; and Perth 14,343 acres. which I have advocated on more than one No hon. 1n0Inlwr can gainsay the fact that occasion, and I quite realise that in ad,-ocat­ ihry ar0 ycr:-~ in1portant .cifies. )Jo one will ing my •mcndment I shall have t-o reiterate .say that Melbourne is not an id0al city, and arguments made on a former occas'ron. V erv Adelaide is looked upon as being the best oftr~n a popular rnan n1ay, by 1neans of th8 planned cite· in the Commonwealth. The popular form of election, secure the reins of hon. me·ulwr for Sand~ate this morning: g-overnment of a city but he may not per­ ·Ri-ruck a note which local authorities should form the work in a proper manner. I cer­ ta.kc into ··1mideration, and which the Go­ tainly think that aldermen sitting round a vernnwut also should take into consideration, table can decide which of them will carrv out the dut-ies of mayor satisfactorily, I There SPf'rns to bo an unsecmlv haste on anticipate that I may be told that my pro­ thE' part of certa1n local authorities to rush posal opens the door of log-rolling. but that in with a Yie\v to expending largo sun1s of is so e.-en in the selection of a candidate for money prior to the consummation of the the mayoral office undrn· present conditions. -Great·_,,. Brisbane scheme. I believe that There is nothing to prevent. an organisn..tion \Yhcn th, Trpasurf'r receives a deputation for going in for log-rolling with the object from tlw Bris!Janc Council, introduced bv the of selecting an individual who is popular or prr•srnt {h'put~,' rnayor of Bl'isbane, in roiulec­ who is pre-eminent in organisation work. It rion wiih the expenditul'e of £500.000 for is true that I have opposed the larger area abattoirc. ho ·sill clo exactlv the same as he and also the limitation of the number of did to 111f1 • ~ aldermen to twenty, and that my amendment would reduc ., the number b·: one, hut I am The CHAIR:\IAN : Order ! dealing with the principle" and di,cussing Mr. 'M:AX\YELI,: Just on tho eve of the the Bill as it is before us at the moment. consummation of a Greater Brisbane scheme In mv opinion the proper men to Blect the it 1s most· nnfair to incur an cxpendjturc 1nayoi· are his brother aldermen. ·of £500,000 for abattoirs, and place J\Ir. :J,Ic LACH"~~AN : !low are ~von going to ·the burden of taxation in that regard on reconcile your amendment with clause 5? the people in the outside areas when the money has been spent without their consent. The CH.\IRM_\N: I would point. out to It was a different propoeition that. I was the hon. member that his amendment ron­ -connected with when I was mayor. I do not flicts with the provisions of clau>c 5, to which take any exception to anything to '.,·hich the Committee have alr<:'ad0- af'recd. proyid­ the ratepayer, within the cit-y ha-ce given iEg rh t th,~ council shall con~ist. of twenty­ their conseni', but I strangle· protest against one alderLtPn. _His an1en

The clause will then read- Clause 19-" Gor, rnor in Council may '· V\Tlwn an cxtraordinarv vacancv appoint Jlayor or "1/tlcTmcn 1rhen non-­ arises in the office of alder1nan (othe.r f'lr)ct£d "~- than the n1ayor) a separate election by Mr. KERR (F:nori!Jcra): I beg to move the electors of the electoral \Yard m !h0 following amendment:- \vhich · uch v~cancv has arisen shall be " On line 23, page 7, aft

·existed in the Moggill Shire Council. The Mr. TAYLOR (Windsor): The Home •Council confirmed the suggestions, but the Secretary should be disposed to consider this Minister ignored them. amendment. The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : The HO:.VIE SECRETARY: Tell mo what you "''hat advice did I give to you? would get out of it. ~Ir. KERR: I am not prepared to accept Mr. TAYLOR: First, the Governor in .any advice you give. Council would not be able to make an GovERXoiENT iiiiEofBERS: Oh! appointment of their own. Say a council is The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IXSTRUCTIOC>! : eJected and there mav be one or two alder­ You were ordered out of the office for being men not nominated o1· a couple of seats not rude. contested, and vacancies exist.. The question arises who are the proper authorities to fill 1\Ir KERR: It was you who were rude. the vacancies? 'The hon. gentleman i.s the rudest man ! haY8 met on my visits to the departments. The HOME SECRETARY: The people. I do not know what the object of the hon. Mr. TAYLOR: Under the Bill the po,wer gentleman was when I took my constituents of filling those vacancies rests entirely with there, but-- the Government. All the amendment asks The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! for is that a list of names of people whom the cauncil may think desirable should be 1lr. KERR: I hope that the Minister will submitted to the Governor in Council. They .take that into consideration, and that in may only send in the requisite number, or future tho reccmmendations of a duly con· they may send in half a dozen names. The stituted council will be given effect to, and council should be able to submit the names, that the Governor in Council will not act as and those elected bv the council should be .an o:·erriding authority as he did on that selected. I do not csee anything wrong in occasion. that principle. Mr. FRY (J1urilpa): I take it that the The HO}IE SECRETARY : Take the election of hon. n1embcr for Bnoggera 'Yishes to give mayor. That might be all right in local full value to the principle of adult franchise. authority matters generally, but it is Those whose names would be submitted to unncces~ary here. the Governor in Council would be elected Mr. TAYLOR: I cannot follow the reason­ by adult franchise. The inclusion of this ing of the hon. gentleman. I certainlv think amendment would also prevent Government a council of tw0r:.tv aldcrnlt:'n and a"' mavor nominees being pushed in when they could should ha Ye power ·to submit names, and the :not get in at an election. It is no good selection should be made from those names advocating adult franchise on the one hand which arc submitted to the Government by and taking it back on the other. If the Go­ the council. vernment were prepared to accept this amend­ The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. ment, it would be in keeping with the prin­ Stopford, Mount M organ): For the life of ·ciple of adult franchise. \Ve know very me I cannot see any need for the amendment. well that, if a vacancy occurs and the people The position is tDtally diffr·rent to the case in the area do not want a supporter of the cited where the Assistant. Minister last year Government, the Government push in one made certain appointments. In the Greater of their nominees. Brisbane Bill the Governor in Council will The Ho~m SECRETARY : The people would exercise his authority if a vacancy occurs, have the opportunity of nominating their own but I cannot see how it will occur. I must representa t.jy(''j, confess that I cannot contemplate a position ::\Ir. FRY : Tlw council e.hould have the arising where either the aldermen who have privilege of submitting the names of men C'C'ntrol oi the council or tho;;e \Yho an~ in they think suitable for the position. opposition and who are dependent upon the \·otes of their supporter' arc going to fail The H miE SEcRETARY : There will be no to nominate a man. vacancies at £400 a year. :\lr. KELSO: You are making prm·ision for Mr. FRY: That may be, but this amend­ that contingency. ment has no bearing on the money quc.otion. lf ,.,, y:piring- to th~ po>'ition of aldermen, for t~e Mr. \VRIGHT: \V ell, you were not here FfQ oi rt10 I cannot understand such a posi- when the vote was taken. 1-ion arising·, and I cannot see any need for the '' mendnwnt. Mr. FRY: I have never Yoted against the :Yir. KIXG (Logan): I would aok thu principle of adult franchise or arbitration :H omP Sc·erdarv to consider the matter more courts. c0l'i·1llsl::. 1 tliink it is a perfectly reason­ The CHAIRMAN : Order ! Order ! able Amendment, and I want to know whY Mr. FRY: That only shows that the hon. i·hp Govl'rnor in Council should have th'o member for Bulimba will' say anything for right to fill these vacancie>•. 'What better political purposes. riiiht has the Governor in Council got than the R lc1ermen ? The CHAIRMAN: Order ! The Hmm SECRETARY: Because the alder­ Mr. FRY: To carry out the principle of men hexe failed to nominate a person. .axlult franchise the Minister should accept Mr. Kl="G: TheY mav not haYe failed . the amendment moved by the hon. member This clause p;i,os th'e Government an oppor­ .for Enoggera. tunity of appointing one of thcir own llt'r. King.] 1550 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSE:.\1BLY.]1 City of Brisbane Bill. supporters to .a position \1 hich carries a ment of the hon. membet' for:· Enoggcr~. ~alarv of £400 a vear. I do not think that fairlv meets the case. Aher the aldermen powe~- should be ~xorcised by the Governor· l.-, ve· been sitting together for ,, timv they in c:ouncil. UndN the adult franchise the have a V8ry good idcc-1 :ts to who would 1nakc people who m·e elected as aldermen are the a good representative for the balance of the direct reprccentatives of the people, and ((,rm. The hon. gentleman must know that quc!y they onght to be trusted to fill a in r0gard to companies. it is nndcrstcod­ yacancy if n, va-c,tncy occurs. They are more anr1 the articL;s of a~.:iocin tion gP11"rally pror the repr·cscntatin" oi the people than the vide--that any vacal!Cy of a na1ure si1nilar Governor in Council. The Ministn 'ays it ta this can be filled bv the exiotinT directors. i' different in the ca,e of outside local autho­ In the cuse of the &j>poiutnwnt of an auditor rities. Perhaps it is, hut even there, under si1nilnr circur.n~tancc~ the n1atter js although there was no emolument attaching ldt to tho dircectors uf the company. I hold to the position, the Government stcppod in that ,,~hen these aldcrnH n hnve sat for a~ and appoiucd one of their political friends "hi le and r;et to know 1 he bw iJlC'''' the:; are to a vecanc:y, nct·vithstanding- that the direct the proper persons to nmkc a r:,-ro:rnn~~c~nda­ tlon-·certainlv not 1hc GoYrn~oJ· in CoHncil. wi"h of the rcpn~sontatives of th12 people '\Yas that some other per an .•hould be appointed. There is not "the sli~hte't c\onbt that if the, recommendation is J('ft to the Governor in The HmJE SF£RIETARY: Supposing tho Council. it will intcn-ify political feeling vacancy left the controlling body in a more than ever. V\"'hen the elPct.ion comes minoritv. and that minoritv nominated a a]ong- it i'3 1~cr a 1nattcr nf tlw respective man who might be absoluteiy repugnant to r1ualrficatiuns of the '"iffereut men and :heir th< othPr aldermen' \Vould we have to ability to carry out the work, but a qm'stion accept that nomination? of two political parties trying- to dominate the affairs of the council. The old idea of Mr. KI::'\G: That is a verv extreme case, !Gcal go·;ernment apparently is thrown to and a ca;c that is not at all li'kely to happen. the winds in this Bill, a11d we shfLll have just \Ve are dealing with a case where there may as seYere a political fillht when it come& he on0 vncancv A vacnncv was caused in to electing- members for the rc·pective areas­ the \Vangaratb Shire Council through a as at a State election. nomination not having been ri:>ccive.d in Mr. FARRELL: 'Why should it not be so? time. In that case the shire council reoom­ :nenrl0d that a retiring councillor should be Hon. :\L J. KmwA~ : Of course. we should enpoii'ted. The retiring councillor had to ha ,-e left your crowd to run it for all time. ride some hundreds of miles to get his nomi­ Mr. KELSO: Local authoritv matt<•rs ar0 nation in within a certain time, and, unfor· eurely outside politic-s. After ~ll. what is a tnnatcl~·. o-wing to flcorh lw could not g-0t local authority? It simply means that. t.her0 in time In that caf~f' thi" 1nan was iLstcad of a man attending· hirn·1c!f to his represe1~ting interf'c-ts :nya~T from the eon-st. front ·door anj his drainage. and all that r.nd, indrad of ~ccopting the ro< ommenda­ sort of thing, it can be done co!lectivcl.v, so tion of the shire council that that old coun­ tnat the burden will be spread m·er the cillor should be reappointed--it wr.s not his v:hole of the communih. It is more effec­ fault thot he was not nominated: it was the tive, collectively, to c~rry out the. t!utie& fault of cir<'nmstancc;;-thcy appointc.cl a ·which appertain to every man, as othPrwise wat0rsidc "\Yorker. some men would do the work and other.; Mr. Cor,LJXS: \Vhat is wrong with him? would not do it. I fail to see "· h:• politics He is just as int0lligent as you are, although should come in. Hon. members opposite try he may -,.vear "bowyangs." to make it a. poLitical n1atter on every occasion .. ::VIr. K1NG: The !·on. member mistmder­ Hon. i\1. J·. KmwAC\' : Of course, vou would stnnds rhe trc11d o£ mv argun1ent. I an1 net make a political ar>pointment.. not nying- a word c.gainst th8 1biliiy of a r>~nn becaliR0 hP hanpens to b0 ~ \":'at/ rside The CHAIRMA='i : Order ! \Yorker. That is quite contrarv to n1y inten­ Mr. KELSO: Would the hem. gentleman t ion. You may have :._; man u \YorkiTig as ;:~., suggest that all political appo·intments come '"att-rsi dP worker put in br,- the Go\~c !.'nor in from this side~ Ho knmvs that the g-reatest Council to represent a district with iJ,+c'rests r·olitical appointments in Queetl'land have that are not identical with the intc rc"'.h, of been made from that side. the coastal district. That is the po:,ition. In that case the Government overlooked The SECRETARY FOR PT:BLIC T:\8TnrcrroN.: the cla1ms of an ex-councillor in fayour of The brains are here-that is whv. a political supporter Tho CHAIRMA='i: Order! Mr. COLLINS: They O\'erlooked some of lVIr. KELSO: I suppose I am out of order. your squatter friench. but it is nr.v hard to keep to the 'ubject ;vhpn somebod·, like the Sccrotarv for L'ublic :\fr. KELSO (:Yunrfrrh\: The :\Iinistcr savs II,struction interjects in the way· he dcws. l that Lr• can understand an ~1111lmdn1ent of think that greater ju~tiee will bP done if, ihis nature in t:onncction V,'itb thr Local instead of the ap11ointrrH~nt bein~; madt~ b:; ,'\ uthorlti0s Af't, ln1t nnr 1!1 (._ ''nnec1nJJ1 -..:rii·h the Liovernor in Cour:cil. it is m~

n re likely to make good councillors are the The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. ·o~Jes to 1nake the recom1nendations or Stopford (Jl aunt M organ) : I beg to move ,;ominations, instead of le1wing it entirely the follmving amendment:- to the Governor in Council under a S.; stem " On line 9, page 8, after the word­ y·hich wuuld offer a tcmptn tion to one side ' shall,' r.1· the other to make a political apjwint· 1nenl. insert the words- ' unless otherwise determined by the At 2.50 p.m., Conncil.' '' 2\lr. F. A. COOPER (Hrcmr.·), one of the Amendment (3Ir. Stopford) agreed to. 1 .uwl of Tl•mporary Chairmen, rclieve1l the Clause 22, as amended, agreed to. ChairnHtl1 in the chair. Clauses 23 to 25, both inclusive, agreed to. ::\Ir. :'t1AXWELL (Toowony): I am sup· Clause 26-"Dutiel of Go·uncil until 1st parting the amendment on account of the October, 19;}.5 "- experience \VC have had in the past. In the Mr. MAXWELL (Toowong): I beg to ~Vloggill Shire a vacancy occurred, and the move the following amendment:- Minibtr r appointed a councillor against the wishes of a great majority of the people. " On line 39, page 8, after the word­ Ar:: amendment such a" this will prevent , officers ' accu~ations against any Minister of using insert the words- his position for political purposes. In the ' in which the council shall take into Moggill Shire a recommendation by the local consideration ]Jrcference to the perma­ authority, supported by over 90 per cent. of nent officers employed by the local the residents, was ignored by the gentleman bodies, and a retirin!l' allowance ~o s~ce who formerly occupied the position of Assist­ officers who may retire or be retired. ant :Winistci·, who ·•vent outside the area and appointed two political partisans. l!nlces such an amendment is inserted, an injustice may bo done to a body of excell~nt The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IXSTRUCTION : n1en and \VOlnen at present associated with i\Iention his name. loral goYernment matters within this area. While on anotlwr occasion I did not agree ::\Ir. :1IAXiYELL: The Assistant Minister with th" granting of mandatory powers by was the present Secretary for Public Instruc­ Parliament, still I have .a precedent for mov­ tion, and it is for this reason I am support­ ing n1v amendnH'nt. In '' I-fansard" for ing the amendment. I do not think the 1922, at p&ge 1838, the hon. member f':lr' Governor in Council or any member of the Srmth Brisbane moved an amendment m Executive should be browbeaten by a Minis­ Committee in connection with the Brisbane ter such as the hon. gentleman into support­ Tramway Trust Act. This is the amend­ ing the claims of certain interested parties. ment- I do not suppose that we shall get very much '' In nwking appvintments, the general satisfaction from the Minister, but we shall m~tnngcr shall not exercise any dis­ at anv nte have ventilated our grievance rrin1inntion against any person on the against a most unjl!st act. ground that snch person ceased work as Mr. KERR (Dnoggera): Before the an employee of the company on the Minister fmally decides not to accept the occasion of the tramway strike of 1912." amendment I should like to draw his atten­ That is ,a mandatory instruction issued by tion to the method bv which a senator in Parliament in framing the Brisbane Tram­ the Federal Parliament is appointed in the way Trust Act, and I contend that I am case of an cxtraot·dinarv vacancv. He is pc;fectly justified in .adopting that as a appointed by both House's. of the Stat? Par· DrcC'edcni for n:10ving rny arnondrnent. I liament, and all we ask IS an ext·ension of ;-caliso that in bringing, into operation a that principle, so that the Greater Brisbane Bill such as this there is bound to be a Council >vill be able to nominate a man to srction of yory d0sirablc ]Woplo thrown out fill the vacancv and effect sha],J be given to of employment, and where it is at all pos­ that nominatio~ by the GoYernor in Council. sible to , prevent thoso people from being \Ye have had a unhappy .experience in this thrown on the industrial scran heap that connection. and, when an opportunity pre­ preeaution should be taken. The new con­ sents itself of providing that it shall not stituted local authoritv will have ever:v oc<:ur a!"ain the Home Secretary should give opportunity to place those offkers in posi­ everv consideration to it. It is a principle tions. I hope the Minister will be prepared whicl: may be applied. to the Greater Bris­ to accept the amendment. bane scheme just as well as to country local authorities. The HOME SECRETARY (Hon. J. Amendment (,1fr. K err) negatived. Stonford. "liount J£orrJan): The amendment looks a very simple one, but hon. members Clause 19 agreed to. must realise that it reallv moans that we are Clauses 20 and 21 agre·ed to. determining the functi'ons of the future council in a mandatory way. Clause 22-" Renwneration of J£ayor and V ic'-Jiayor"- Mr. MAXWELL: The same thing obtained in connection with iho >tmomlrrwnt moved by Mr. J\L\XWELL: I had circulated an th<' hon. member for South Brisbane on the amendment on this clause to omit lines 9 Brisbane Tramway Trust Act. and 10, page 8, reading- The HOME SECREL\RY: Th~ hon. " Anv such salarv to the Vice-Mayor gentlernan m~kp.-,, a very ~Yreat distjnction. shall b~ d€ducted f~om the salary of the 'n" rdNs in his amendrn<'nt to the perma­ Ma:Tor." nent offircrs. He is not ver~7 mu~h con­ The J\linistcr has also circulated an amend­ rerncd about th0 navvv workinP" on the road ment, and, if he moves his, I shall not press or the sanite.ry man or anY other employee minr. of the council. Hon. J. Stopfnrd.] 1552 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSE}IBLY.J City of Brisbane Biil.

Mr. Jl.l \X WELL: They will get the same opinion of t-he C. to quoi:e ''"hat the hon. guntleman asks. His Mr. l\1cLACHLAN: Tbai is not the purpo:·t amendment provides that- of the ,rnendmcnt. '· The council &hall take into considcra· The 1IOl!E SECRETARY: The amend,Et 1t tion prefcreuc~ to tho pernHLnent officerg la"s down that there ehall be a c ;nn,;· employed by the loc~tl bodiD-; and the allov. f!Ilt e granted. r0'tiring allovvo nee to such officer:. who ITJa:v retire or be retired." .Mr. FRY: \Ve ha ye a proced<'nt for the Clause 30 of the Dill provides- a!lwlldment in the pra.ctice arlopt<'d when' " .:-\.ll officurs and servants of each :._;nch hwns have been enlarged in other pn.n,; of local boc!y holding offtce or h;ing 1he world, also bv the Comm0nw<',t!th omnloved on the first dav of Octooer. (lovernment. It would be ac well if tho one thousand nine hundrc·ll and twenty­ Con11nittee recorded in son1e '' ·ty it~ 011inion fin•, shall bo doemod to have been that the new council shDuld giYe ln·cfe1 cncp tu appoiniod and engaged under this Act. t!Jo officials at present employed. but shed! otherwise be subject to be dc•al1 The HOME SECRETARY: \\'oulcl YOU re,·orJ \vith as offic\·r _, and srrvant.~ of the that by a resolution Y • council: Provided that any officer of _a loral bcdy vvho has boon engag0d and LS M;-. FRY: The new council \Youlcl th< n still eiL{1loyed under a subsisting c?n­ be guided by such a resolution. \Ye might tr:tct of set vif'o extending OY{~r a pc nod state that if the new council did nor give thie of Y't:ar<, \Yhich has not (~xpirC'd on the preference, an a•ncndment ,._ oulcl be n1adc first d ':V of October, ono thousand nine in the Act requiring such pn·fercnce to b:· hun r0tainod. \Vhat is going to happen to the hon. 1nen1ber, that th0 old t1 n1plo~·ccs them? Are the,. going to be cast aside ·: should get preference will bo rc','Otdc>cl. The hon. member for '1\.o\Yong asks t.ha t. (Ilear. hear!) That proforcncc "-ill npph­ wlwn employment i, available, thcsc- men tn a1l the old <'.mploycoR of f1.., council:". shall rec·- ive first consideration. That i a There can on1v be ono town cle,rk :tnd <""~iH' Yf'ry just request, and \\ o are asking the chief enp;ine0e,' and to lay down tlh' princi!1le Home Secretary to give these men tlwt definite!_;· in tho Bill that prdnencl' sha I! right. bo giYen to all the old of!icers might rt•snlt in 'fhe question of retiring allowancPs can men being placed in positions for which they oome up for the consideration of the new ·"q~re not S1.lit'd. I do not feel inclinPd t) council hen it is elected. It is not a lav it -dov n t.hat a retiring· oflll'l1 l' ~hall lw difficult matter to deal with. \Ye should pl~ced in the sa1nC' positio~ n,:-; a :wrY?. n~ of recognise the lon!i' service given to the the Stato. who l1as regularly paid irto a authorities by some of these servants of tlw fund in order that hP rnay rcePiYt~ a ·retiring· public. These people arc just as much a 1lo\vancc. public servants as aro the public son-ants in I\11-. FRY (Ic?trilpa): I agrc•e in the mcill JHr. MAX\YELL: If the matter were loft be memhe1 of present local authorities. and to the hon. gentleman, it would be all right, the:· ma~' be holding the dual positions. hnt t-hPre is oue Yie,vooint \V{' .cannot lose The HmiE SECHETARY: I do not think there sir;ht of, .and that is the interference of an will be any harm done by that, outside organisation which dictates the action Clause 26 agreed to. of hon. members opposite. Clauses 27 to 31, both inclusive, agreed to. Mr. CoLLINS: The Employer,,' Federation? J\Ir. HARTLEY (Pit:roy): I b<;l" to move }fr. MAXWELL: The hon. gentleman 1 he insertion of the following new clause to knows that there is an outside organisation fellow cl a use 31 :- which tells hon. members opposit,e what they have p:ot to do. It whips them into line. " Rotanir: (.)ardcns. It is for that reason that I object to the " (1.) In this sec·tion the term 'Botanic clau'e as it stands. Gardens' means all that parcel of land The SECRETAllY FOR Pc:BLIC IXSTRUCTION: situated in the county of Stanlcy. pe1rieh Who was in the lobby this morning? of :\orth I3elsbune, city of Bri~ilan-e, cotnpri8ing an area of fifty-'3cYen acres Mr. ::MAXWELL : The hon. gentleman and three roods or thereabouts, which evidently knows who was in the lobbv this was dulv const;tuted a l'esen·, for morning. I do not know the gentleman he Botanic Gardens bv an Order in Council is talking about, but, if a gentleman is Jlublished in the 'Gazette' on the> first interested in cert<'in legislation that is pass· dav of Julv. one thousand nine hundred ing through this Chamber, he is perfectl:v and sixteer1, and which said Orcin in justified in ,attending here to see what i's Council was amended b:v an Order in going on and to hear what hon. members Council published in the ' Gazette ' on: 1924-5 c Mr. Hartley.] 1554 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] City of Brisbane Bilt.

the twelfth day of August, one thousand power to make ordinances undN this Act, nine hundred and sixtee•1, excluding from the Council is expnw.sly empowered to such parcel of land the land which is 1nako all such ordinances under thi8 Act occupied by ,,, building known as ' The as it deems proper rel, ting to the con­ Botanic J\iuseum,' and also so much land trol, nutnLgemeni. improvcrnent. Inain­ as is sufficient to form a conVl'nient tcnancc, use, and good governrnent of curtilage for such Must>um. together with the Botanic Gardens: Provided until a reservation Df a public ri_~ht of wa:v the Council has mad · other provisicn by to and fron1 the said l\lusennl, aud such ordinance in that bchali the b~--laws other rcservation6 as ntav he deemed n1ade bv the trust ecs of thP ~.aid reserve, necc;;:,sary, which excludecl part of th0 a cop,v" whereof w>es published in the said rPSC'l'Ye ,shall be describcrl, declared. ·Gazette' on tlhc first day of July. one and def1nf•d bv an Order in Coun :il thousand nine hundred and sixteen, shall pHbl ished in tl1e • Gazette.' re1nain in force with respect to th::! " (2.) On and after the first clay of Bota1:ic Garden~ and shall be adrninis­ (;ctober, one thousand nine hEnclrccl and t.el'Cd b:- tlw Council; aml for that pur­ tv ..:cnty-11n:, the Councll shall control, posr• the said b-.;;.--la,\·~ ~hall bP consinH:d 1nanago, and 1nair:.tain the J3otanic a:-. i£ reff'l'cnct : t liercin to the ' :l\iinis­ Garclcm, and the Botanic Grrrdcns shall ter' and ·gardens.' r:''l>t>Ctively, \\'ere be deemed for all the pLdth sufficient land for approaches and other meaning o±:, the Land Act of 1910 and conveniences, it will be retained by the its several amendmcnti'. GovernmenL " (4.) On the first day of October, one I do not think there will be a"y objection thousand nine hundred and twenty-five, to giying the control of the Botanic Gardens the trustees of the sa id reqerve holding to the Brisbane CounciL The Government office on that date shall go out of ot1ico have hitherto maintained the gardens at an and shall cease to exercise or perform expenditure of something like £5,000 per any of tho powers, duties, or functions <1nnum, but I think tho people of Brisbane which they were theretofore authorised will be quite content to take over the or entrusted to exercise or perform aa gardens and manage th{?m in future. 'There such trustees. ..ere two very fine Botanic Gardens at Roe~~ hampton and Townsville. The Botame " (5.) On the first day of October, one Gardens at Rockhampton are equal to, if thousand nine hundred and twenty-five, they do not surpa'''• the Brisbane Gardens. all maC'hinery, hnplen1ents, tools, uteru;ils, animals and birds in captivity, and all Mr. KELSO: \Vhat is the area of land on other personal property whatsoever »hich the Botanic Museum stands? theretofore vested in i he Crown or in l\;r. HARTLEY: I have not defined the any department of the Govprnment or r.rea, but there is ius! suft1cient land to makJ in the said truste0s and then being in it mitable for the -purpose of the buildir.g-l m· upon the Bohnic Gardens, shall be suppoee there ''"ill be about an acrf'. l hope divested from the then ow·1crs thereof tl12m will be no oppo' itioa to this amcnd­ and shaH, ·without an~,~ transf<- r, cotlv£'y­ ncPnt. I think the Brisbane Council can ancC', or a"J.--;ignmcnt, or ll-otice other than \Yell maintain and l11111Hl:re the Botanic this Act. pass to and become ve't"cl in Gardens. Th(: Council~ ill Rcckhan1pton the Council for the purposes of this Act. a1,r! To\YllSYille are responsible for the "(6.) :'\othing hNein cont ,inecl shall Botanic Gardens there. In the Botanic b0 con;;;.trued to prejudice any 1earc of Gnr.:lens in Rockhan1pton not only du they any part of the Botanic Gerdons exist­ go in for ornarncntal 1)la11ts and Dowers. in on the first day uf October. one bllt tht'Y s.l5~o af't ns a nnr:::;er: for the thousand nine lFmcli·cd and twenty-fiye, ocr:linl,tt~sotion of fruit tree;;, 1~artic larJ.;,· but every such lease shall be construed onu'"~_r;e and n:andarin orange in,c::;. It is as if the Council ' re the lc'S'Ol' of the b_'rollljng a profits ble pDrt of their bnsines~. land dcmis•'d tlwreb\' in Sl!bstitution for 1111d it is a great adyantag"(' to people in tho the lC':.:sor nan1cd. th0rcin. and the lc~sce c('Dh'. l DistriC'r to be able to !!0 to a place shall a itorn to tlw Council. \Yhc-rc> tlwy 2,10 :-;un; nf getti11g· fir..:.:t-elas~ frnit h't"':'\ \YhiC'h h~Yo been accliJnatiscd to " 1?.) ~JJ ofTJ( er<;;, ~'"'rvants. and work­ nwr, holding nffic0-or being ernplo~·cJ cF1 ihe district. the firs! day of Octobn, one thocHmd Mr. SIZER (S.nulrJ<>Ic) : Subclauso (3) 11ine hr;nclred and bventv-five. Ht or JHoYides that the Botanic Gardens shall be about the Botanio Gardens shali be deemed to be permanently placed under the dfemed to have been appointed and cor-.trol of the council for the pnrposes engaged uucler this Act, bnt shall othcr­ dPrlarcd in the Ordns in Council of 1st Jul,, 'vise be subject to be dealt with as and 12th August, 1916, " and for no other officerg, sf'rvants, and 'voi·kmen of the purposes whatsocYer." Under the adminis­ Council. tration of the Department of Agriculture " (8.) Without limiting its general Yery free opportunities for recreation are fMr. Hartley. City of Brisbane Bill. [14 OcTOBER.] 1555

,offered in the Botanic Gardens. and larrre It also provides- nurnbers o£ per~ons 1nake a practicE~ of going " The Council may do any acts not there for ;·ecr~ation in the lunch hour and othenvise unlawful ,..-hich mav be neces· indu1(·ing in cxen:iscs in \Yhich I ccrtain1y sary to the proper exercise and perform· think there is no harm. I am quite in ance of its po.,ers and duties under this favour of the Botanic Gardens being con­ Act or under any other Act conferring trolled by tlw GrNter Brisbane Council, but powers or imposing duties on the I do not see anv rea:--::m for tho inclusion of Council." the vvords I lun:c quoted. Althoue-h I do not object to the amendment, l'IIr. liARTLEY: You "·oukl make it po•,sibk I believe that the Council will haYe power to ha-n~ golf links and bovding greens, and under the present Bill to acquire the Botanic half a dozen other things thoro. Garden;), Mr. SIZE:R: \Yhy not? X a provision is ::\Ir. l'IIAX\YELL (Toowong): I quite agree made in the amendment \Yhcrebv the Botanic with what the hon. member for Fitzroy has Gardur; rr. ay be used for roe rea tion pur­ said with reference to taking ove1;· the po;:;cs. Bolanic G: rdcns, but I would like to know Tlw limiE SErRETARY: The present rcctly justified in raising the point he £40,5SO, and it is urance that, if cricket or tennis is to be i'' interest and redemption about £101,000. playe·d in the Botanic Gardens-- 'The c·c•n is not altogether parallel, I admit. The HonrE SECRETARY : The Botanic but the fact that the reserve was handed Gardens will be conducted as they are at over for no other purpose than that of a present until a new ordinance is issued market tied the hands of the Council, with dealing with them. the result I have mentioned. That is a Mr. MOORE (Aubigny): I understand phase of the question which should receive that at the present time the Botanic Gardens some consideration, because it might involve distribute trees all over the Stat·e. I know the new Council in some difficulty. that many schools obtain trees from that source. Mr. KING (Logan) : I am quite in accord with the sentimento of the hon. member for The Hmm SECRETARY: The Rockhampton Fitzrov as to the control of the Botanic Botanic Gardens are controlled by the Rock­ ·Gardeils. but I wonl·d like to ask whether the hampton Council, .and they also distribute ncccsear.'- po"\ver is not contained in clause trees. 35. which says that the Council shall have Mr. JUOORE : I .understood they were all full power 'to make ordinances for the run by the Government. general good goyernment of the city, .and The HO)IE SECRETARY: 1\o. then proceeds·- " (3.) vYithout limiting the generality M1·. TAYLOR (H' indsor): I think it is generally agreed that the amendment should of its powers, the Council shall have and be acocpLd, and that the Botanic Gardens posse>-; exprccs powers m relation to the should com" under the control of the Greater following matters :-The provision, con­ Brisbane Council at the earliest possible struction, maintenance-, n1anagement, opportunity. If I understand the position control, and regulation of the use of aright. the Botanic Gardens at the present roads, briclge3, tunnels. ferries, subways. time are controllr d by the Department of viaducts, ctdYcrts, and other 1neans of \gTiculture, and all that is proposed b;: the pubJlc conurmnira6on; public parks, new clause is that the Greater Brisbane aviation grounds. n~creation grounds. Council shall take over and carry them on and other -public places; re:)ervcs " on sin1ilar lines. or in a \vay vvhich is :Mr. H.\RTLEY: .\t the present time that is deemed io be in the best interests of the not obsnrn''d. comrr:.unity. l\1r. KI:!'\G: That is so. :Ylr. ~\lcLACHLAX : The e•cpense will have to bo borne bv. the Council instead of bv lYir. HARTLEY: This arnendment means that the GoTornmen't. " the gardens shall be handed o\·er as a reserve. J\Ir. L~ YLOR: Ye··. At the present time lVIr. KING: Clause 35 ·provides, inter thf~ property is vrstcd in trnstecs, and I .alia- ta kc it 1 hat . no legal difficulties will be " Furthermore the Council shall, sub­ oxp0rienccfl 1n tLtllsfPrring the Botanic ject to this Act and to any alteration Gardens to the Greater Brisbane Council. by ordinance, be deemed to posse-s all Nmv clause (Jir. Jiartlcy) agreed to. thC' powers! rights, privileges) and autho­ Clause 32~" J·(.rist£nr; Treasury Loans"­ rities, and to he subject to all the lia­ bilities, duties, obligations, and re .. pon­ Mr. MOO RE (J ubigny) : I beg to moye sibilities of a local authoritv under the tho following amendment:- Local A uthoritics Act, and" the Health " On pages 13 and 14, omit the words- Ac', and any other Act conferring powers, . (1.) vVhPre am· such loans were rights, priYilc~es, or authorities, or borrowed, bearing inter·est at the i·ate imposing liabilities, duties, obligations, of four pounds per centum per annum, or responsibilities on a local authority." the Treasurer shall extend the period Mr. Moore.] 1556 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEl\IBLY.] City of Br1sbane Bill.

of such loans and consolidate the same At various times the Treasury has lent; into one loan so that the "-hole period money to various local aut-horities, stipulat­ of the loan as so consolidated shall be ing the amount to be paid back by way or forty years, beginning on the first day interest and redemption. No matter what of July, one thousand nine hundred period of time these loans were and twenty-five, and on and from that [3.30 p.m.] made for, or how long the works date such consolidated loan shall be for which the loans were obtained deemed to be a loan to the Council for might last, under the Bill they are all now the period aforesaid. to bo pooled and spread over a period of ' (2.) ·where any such loans were fortv ·1carR. ::\ o other borrowers from the borrowed, bearing interest at the rate Govuerr'ln1ent are going to receive such of five pounds ten shillings per centum favourable conditions as these. The objec­ p-er annum, the Treasurer shall extend tion I take to it is that a large amount of thB period of such loans and consoli­ this monev has been spent on \YOrk which date the same into one loan so that the will not last for a longer period than, ten or whole period of the loan as so con­ f.fteen vcars. 1\Iuch of it has been spent

solidated sh>tll be forty ::cars, begin­ on such u works as t.ernporary water channel~ ning on the first day of July, one ling and the construction of metal roads thousand nine hundred and twentv­ '\ hich will not last very long. \V e are fiv-e, and on and from that date such shiftin <; the burden of those loans on to the consolicl.lted loan shall be deemed to people thirty and forty years hence. who w1ll be a loan to the Council for the period be called UlJOD to pay intel'C~st and redemp­ aforesaid. tion on \YOrk which has not onlv \vorn out • (3.1 The Trca'll1'0r shall came to l>e vears and vears before and for 'which they made in the books of the Treasury th<> i·eceivc no· benefit., but which have been nc0cssarv ,adjustment& so as to give reconstructed again. It is unfair and unw1'se due effc~-~t to the provisions of this to place the burden of these liabilitic; of the section. ratepayers of to-dav on to the ratepayers of the future. If all· the works on which the '(4.) Save a~ hcreinb0fore wcntioncd. the existing terms and conditions of n1oncy was ad ranred 'i\'C'l'C going to !as~ for a cverv such loan from Consolidated period of forty years as suggested _Ill the Revenue shall be observed bv the pooling arrangement, it would be a d1fferent Council in r-espect of the consoGdated proposition altogether. loans and each of them; and the instal­ The Ho:viE SECRETARY: You know that most ments of interest and redemption in of those loans were made for works of a respect thereof, adjuste-d in accord­ permanent character. ance with the extended period of <'•ach such consolidated loan, shall be pa~'­ Mr. 1\100RE: I know that a good many able from time to time accordingly of them have been incurred for such pur­ bv the Council to the Treasurer, and poses. but I also know that a great many the Treasurer shall have and may <>f t-hem have been incurred for periods of f'Xerciso 1he san1e rights and remedies ten vear,. The loans are usually made for for the recovcrv of such monevs as he the ]1criod for which it is pstim~ted by the possessed with" respect to the loans Trcasurv the \vorks will last. It cannot be before the consolidation thereof.' said bv · anv stretch of imrtgination that the life of main· of th<' roads on which loans 'vith a view to inserting the words- have been "made will continue for fDrty ' 'The Council, in mbstitution for ,-ears after next vear. Some of the loan each such local authority, shall on and inoneY has beer! used for purchasing after that date be chargeable with the mach~nery, and the life of that machinery payment of all Sl!ms from time to time has been estimated bv the 'l'reasm·y at due and payable, whether by way of periods varving from. seven to fifteen interest or principal money. under tho vears. It ca'nnot be said by any stretch of terms of the said loan~. and the exist­ Imagination that this machinery will last for ing terms and conditions of every such fortv vears. It is an objectionable principle loan from Consolidated Revenue shall to ii'td~1ce the people to come into this scheme be observed bv the Cmwcil, and the by shm-ing the burdens of to-day on to the instalments of "interest and redemption generation living thirtv to forty years hence. in respect thereof shall be payable from If another council asked t.he Treasurv to time to time accordingly by the Ooul'cil extend a loan which \Yas granted for \vork to the 'Treasurer. and the Treasurer of a ten1porar~r nature over a period of shall have and n1av exercise the samo fortv vears thei1· request would be refused. rights and remedies' against the Council The"Ti·easu'rv would SU~[gcst that that council for the recoverv of such monevs a; he should pay· its own liabilitv, incurred for possessed Egainst each such loc~l autho­ the benefit of the ratepayers during their ritv before the first dav of October, lifetime, and not pass ii on to the people one thoueand nine hundre>d and twenty­ coming after them. If the work being con­ fiv,e.' " structed is of such a nature that it is going The object of the amendment is to 11revent to last for the whole period of forty yea,s, the adoption of a system of pooling the there would be no objection, as the peopfe loans and extending- them over a period of forty years hence would be reaping a b<>ncfit forty vears. \Ve know that a number of from the money expended. these ioans have been obtained at various J.\fy contention is that the works on which times, and are to be repaid within the timo a large amount. of this money has been that it is estimated would be the life of expended cannot bv any stretch of imagi­ the work that the monev was used to con· nation be expected to last for half that struct. In some cases th'at period would be period. \Vhen the work does not last for ten years, fifteen years, and twenty-five years. that period, there can be no justice in plac­ It all depended on what was estimated by ing the burden on the shoulders of the the Treasury to be the life of the work people of the future and asking t-hem to· that was to be constructed with the money. carry burdens which should be carried by· [Mr. Moore. City of Briobane Bill. [14 OCTOBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1557

-the people of to-day. The various loan contribute far more than they ought for works which were referred to in a table sub­ beneflh which other people received and mitted by the Assistant Minister in his speech which thev did not themselves receive. I -on the Bill he had in charge last year hope the ':Minister will regard the amend­ showed that a vast majority of the loans ment favourably, and will withdraw the were for work which might be called of clause about the pooling of loans for forty a temporary nat-ure. A great many of the yc·ars, letting the liabilities stand as they loans were for the construction of roads and are .a,nd allowing the terms originally kerbing and channelling. A certain amount :1 rranged with tho Treasurer to bo carried of the money advanced was for the purchase out in their entiretv. If it is necessary for of machinery, and the installation of electric all loans to be pooied, then let the ori-.,inal lighting·. It might be perfectly justifiable to ierms be adhered to so that people will not extend a portion of these loans over a period have to contribute monev for work which is cf forty years, but for a great many of thom worn out, for machiner\· that has become there is no justification for any extension. l out of date, and \Yhich' possiblY has been take it that in granting loans to local replaced by new machinery. I hope tho a.uthorities the Treasurer is guided by the :vJinister will look into the question advice of his officers, who make inquirie; into thorough!,·, and see that an injustice is not the life of the work on which it is proposed done to the few people in the outside areas. io expend the loans. A stipulation is then made according to the life of the work a·., to 1\Ir. KEICR (F:noggrra): There is one how and when the loans are to be repaid. thing that we mu-.t recognise at the outset, and that is that the local authorities which Taking all that int.o consideration, the l JlTC''':cd the monev were prepared to meet ~rn-:lSUl'(·r says: " I am prepared to lond the-ir liabilities, otherwise they would not the mane,· for a certain specified time, seeing hwe borrowed it. The Minister has said. the people want the advance for a public that most of t hi, money has been borrowed necessity." No,v, after definite arrange­ since 1918. ·we know that there is a ments have been entered into, and in many hig·h rate of iPterest chargeable on that cases the people haye enjoyed the benefits mono,·. and. if we provide that the repay­ of the work for some time. we propose to ment shall extend over a period of forty shift the burden to other shoulders, and in years, the council will not have an oppor­ some cases to double and treble the amount tunit),- to renew these loans or repurchase .(Jf liabilitv that was contracted for in the the bond,; iss1wd. I agree with the Leader beginning.· Seeing that many people will of the Opposition that the people who have no benefit accruing to them from the <:'rPated the lit>bility should be responsible amount of money expended but will have to for the repayment. That is the whole crux pay interest and redemption on a future of the positwn. The Local Authorities Act loan, used probably to carry on the same under which thio money was borrowed pro­ work in the same area and for the same pur­ pose, we are really double ba.nking the vides th"t a poll of the ratepayers shall be money they have to pay for the same co-n­ taken as to whether loan monev shall be veniences. That cannot he said to be a exnendcd or not. and now we, have the just or fai1· method of finance. I can quite unfortunate position arising that ratepayers "\mdersrand an endeavour being ma.de to who have not had an opportunity of voting soothe the feelings of people in the omtide on the qu0stion of spending the money will areas for h~tving to p~ty he.avier rat~". The be debited with part of the amount bor­ .clause in the Bill ma"y be regarded as a rowed. The principle is wrong. It is wrong sop to make_ the money due by way of loan to relieve those' who borrowed the money of appear as little as possible by making it their liahilitv ancl put a further bur.den on 1'811':-Yable over a longer period, insteatl of peop]p who had no say in the expenditure ·callmg upon the ratepayers to meet heavy of that monev. Local authority loans have payments during the first few vears of the "I waYS he en "one of thf' best assets to this ·Greater J3,·isbanc scheme. 'l'his idc.::t has Sta t~ If the public debt of the State gave l•een evoh-ed to whittle away anv protests as., p-ood a return as is given by the loans to that. might be made by the poo]olo in the local authorities. we would not be in the outs1de ~treas; but that does not make it ~0rlous financial position we are jn to-day. more just, nor does it reduce the lia.bilitv. It is proposed now to extend the period of 1t is onl:- going to extend the debt a little the-e loans for forty years, .and naturally, if longer than was intended at th~ time the tlwre is onv shortage. it will have to be money w~ts lent. Consequently, I do not made up from other avenues. I do not think think there is the fligh test j ustific 'tion for we should ·cknart from the period of repay­ this extension of tcnns. I sec e-ren- reason ment fixed when these local authorities bor­ for sticking to the original j erms on which rowed the monev. If we do. the various 1he monev was advanced. If we do that worb for which.. the monev was borrowed people in' the outside areas will not hav~ will be m-er-capitalised. S~me of the roads to .shoulder a liability over such a. long which \vcre constructed on borrowed monev ]Jenod o~ years and will possibly have an \vill onlv L"t for seven rears. After sc·ven

i.s going to result is going to be in1posed in \Yhal I hav-e heen striving to accomplish is• lhe 3ha pc o' a piece' here and a piece there. simplicity of finance. and that is accom­ a1~d S11reud OYC'l' a large nnn1bcr of years, it plished hy the two proposals we make here .. \nll not hit- a rnan so hard as if the ilnposi­ It is not a new thing. In 1899 the loans of tion v·as put on in one piece. The Govern­ certain local <>uthorities \Yere consolidated rnent h<-• ·e endcn.YOlll'C'd to seize anv avenue anJ extended in Schedule 2 to the Local of ('~ ;:::qJC• to plilcatc the 11coplc. They say, \Yorks Loans Act of 1899. In the Schedule '' 1._~ rur ra tt' c,f rcpn::nnent is only such and rcif'rrcJ to there is a list of 111Ullicipalities such a rat0." but thev do not sav that it is and orhcr bo.~lics, the loans of \Yhich \vere a rate for fortv vears~. If thev Said "This comolidated and extended. The tendency is extra rate i~ fo1: the period 'Of thd loan,'' for lo, a] authorities cYerpv-here to pool their there would be a greater outcry against the loanf. IIamilton. Stcphens, Ipswich, and impo,ition on the part of the people who other local authorities recognise the benefit do not 1.·, ant to con1c in uncler this scheme. of pooli11g their loa11s and striking a com­ The Govcrnlnenr haYf' tried to obviate tha.t mon rate all oYer the area. I look upon the cry. nnd th'-1 Y think rhe~7 1.rill do so by comoliJation and pooling of the loans as one, extccnc!iu~ th< periDd of the loan to forty o: the best principles in the Bill. ycins. It will b0 c!ifficnlt for the :Ylinister At 3.52 p.m., to adyance any arg·un1cnt why the amend~ ment should not be accepted. It will be }Ir. F. c\. COOPER (Brcmcr), one of the c!ifficult for him to show that thos·" people panel of Temporary Chairmeu, relieved the whn incnrrec! the liabilitv should be Chairman in the chair. released thercfrom, without even their own ::\Ir. IU::\G (Lor;an): The Minister ,says application to b0 so released. Thev are that by pooling tl;ese loans they have over­ being released. and the burden is beir{g put cmne the difficultv of finance. I admit that. on to somebodv else. I trust that before the thev have. but 1 do not think that it is 1Iinister· turns· down the amendment he will ]:,y imv means equitable. It seems to me that be able> to satisfv the Committee that he is s~me of the people have been sacrificer! in a doi,.g the right· thing. Personally I think d~;ire to follow the line of least resistance. he 1s \Yrong. I agree with my leac!er that many of the works for which this monev ha.< been The Ho:\IE SECRETARY (Eon. J. bcrrowccl e.re practically deacf works, and Stopforcl . •!I nun! JI organ): I am not going say unhuitatingly that by extending for to accept tlw amendment, because it would forty vf'ars loam of which some were destroy thf' \vholc of the Greater Brisbane Lor~ow(,d for 1 en, fifteen. or tw cnty ;years, scheme. \Yhat \Ye are aiming at in this Bill the G-oYrrnment arc~ penalising posterity. j-, to bring- about unitv of action OYer the 'Ihe councils which borrowed them l•ntercd area \vhich we have alr0adv dedared \vill be into ccrtaili obligations to repay w~thln a incluc!ecl in the Greater Br·i,hane area. Ti1is certain period at a certain rate of tntorcst· Bill has been on tlw stocks for some years, with certain half-year!:;- payments. They and on0 of the most difficult problems •se unde,·stoc•d their obligations, and the:v are had to overcome was the problem Df finance. not now asking to be relieved of them; but Everv effort was m a c!e to overcomt-ho [rave the 1nattcr ever~,~ practically nothing in comn,,on with the considt'ration \Ya.-: that lYe \YDuld ha\·e tO pcopl(-' 1Yho borrowed the n1onc;.~ a~d assumed pool tlw debt·, ~nd :,·ou cannot pool the !he obligations ha Ye now to take o\·er. the debts Ycitlwut comolidatinp; them. liabilitv. In fairne3S to thn local authorities }1r. KERR: That is not necc --ary. conc(~nlecl and those ·who come aftrr us, the :\Iinistcr should see that thosP who The HO:\tE SECRETARY: I am sorry to JllCl'iTed the liabilitv· discharge it within a diifcr fro1n the hon~ n1cn1bcT. Our advi:;;ers rr·asonab]c period-that is, pr~ctical1y "vit?in., arc n1en IYho are f'XlJCrts in this n1atter. The the lifetime of the persons who incurred tt. hon. mPmbrr has referred to the high rate of intcrcsL The intotest is 4 per cent. and 51 ::\Ir. FHY (Il.uri/z)(!l : VYhcn South Bric per cem. The prc ;1osal is to consolidate the bh:nC' Yrns divided · fronl Brisbane, ~t 'vas loans for forty years. The hon. n1embcr ]ol.dr-cl y,·ith responsibilities of \Yhich it has spoke of the intcre,t chara-cs and the finan­ not bren able to get rid to this day. you cannot arr-;nC> that the 1110110;\'S for "'hich C'ia! 1 ff,-rt in regarr1 to thi'~ BilL and we as a GoYernn1cnt are prepared to rPli0vo tho tlw l'i'S]Jonsibilit:.- was thrown upon South l~ri~banc· at. that tinH" were spent on \Yorks local bodie~ of a. burd,_,n b:'\· 0nal:Jling thmn to \Yithiu thnt are... Th<'\' \\·rrc not.· The South tiel<' ov-er the initial stag-0s to the extent of Bri.;:bane Council took. over certain liabilitic-, £20.000 pet· annum. The Lea.ckr of the Gf th0 Brisbmw ( 'ounciL and to burden it Onposition rais0cl the question of the period ctill fnrtlwr \rith this debt is v-er)· unfair, In of the lorrn:-;. \Yt' ha·n:• to t::_·v to o\·0rcome nutnY instance~ a C0!1::"o1idation of 1iabilitirs the -:p difficuJtir~ in order to ·Q··t a Greater Htns1 bP nnfai.L as \vil1 1 ,. 5C'C'n frotn tho Brisban0 Fl rea. In1agi.ne ~.,·h~tt 'it \Youlcl ha Ye financial bble gi,·en to thr- Hm"c b,· the meant if the old Bill had l1e0n gone on with. Le~dcl' of the 01n)0 .1tion. For inf'ltan~0. V\'8 a ne! the benefited m·cas had c mtinued. {ind tLat t;1c lrrrn iud0btedllC"-s of Bl·1sbane Ev{'rv litt-1P section of thP romrr1unitv would is £1.056 257. or £126 9. 8d. pr•· rnVn1ayer. hav-~," anp<'alcd to lun·e a benefited a~ea pro­ t;1C' l'CYC'HHf' b0i11g £2~9.447, Ol' £29 17s. 5J. claimed for cvcr:v inl11l'OYC!llC'nt. 11"'1' l.itepay'~'r. Mr. iiioORE: \Ye hnv0 not asked for that. Then , ·e haxo Sonth Brisbane ,, irh 1 loan The HO:\IE SECRETARY: It ts only inc1ebtedne" of £330.952. beinc· £ ·2 3-;. 4d. loi;ical thd you should ask for it. p0r r:)tcr:t~-cr. a11c1 a re,- ·1ue arnonnting to :Jir. ~VlOORE : ::'\ ot at rr]J. ;f73A24, be in"; £9 7s. lcl. p r rate;w cer. 'J'h0n \\-e Jn1v· "'i... eero~gpj1l~, with TlO 1D8..n The HO:\ rE SECRETARY: You cannot iPdebterlness \YhateYer. and FJ reyenue. poD! the loans without consolidatino· them nmnuntirw· to £3.277. or £1 12s. 2cl. per rate­ You will hav-e to continue the ,/~tern of ! :,y0!'. That fully points out the> roason benefited areas if you dD not pool the loans. ·why the sn1uller areas are con1plauung about [Jir. Il.err. City of Brisbane Bill. [14 OCTOBER.] Oily of Brisbane Bill. 1559'

comin~ into the scheme. Th;,y ,,.., afraid Tlwn there is th<' other property whieh th& lha.t thPv are o-oing· to be hit not nul'" in South Brisbane Council recciYed-the ferry rc·gard tO 1oan t"'ind~btcdncss a.nd other 'bur­ rcserYe, in Stanlc:v street. It \Yas Yalued at dC'ns. but also in connection \vith the bnrdens £22,440. It consists of allotments 9 and 10 0f increased Yaluations and rating that will of section 7, "-ith an area of b an acre. It is be in1posed so as to reprty these loa.ns. the lane! upon which the Sunshine Hanecter Ho•,'- di~l South Brisbane get inlo that building now stands. In report­ position' Apparent!:;· South Brisbane had [4 p.1n.] ing on the asf'ets taken oyer. the no control o\-er the position. The llowcrS for accountant called attention to the tin1e being pln<:ed a :n:-sponsibility Hllon the fact that the board of Yaluers had South Bri~banc wh!ch she has ncYer been tr< a tee! the ferry reserve as a property held al1le to shak0 off. I han' here figures ,,-hich in feu-simple and had valued it accordingly huYe been >peciuJJc- prepa1·erl for me "·hich at £22,440. It. \\-as found, however. that the I desire to plac": on record, as thcv have municipality of Brisbane did not hold and neYer been placed on recmd here be fore. I consequently could not transmit any title to ·do not kno\'L ).fr. Cooper, whether YOU will the reserYe in question. ancl that a fee· < )\O\'IT thCITI to be vrinted in •· J-IitD:'"ard" simple valuation would bo extremely unfair \rithout being read. to South Brisbane. He accordingly amended the• valuation to a. figure equal t-o the The TE:\IPORARY CHAIRMA:'\: The capitalised valu0 of its then rental, nameiy Chairn1an of Cotnini ttef''J has on lH'CYious £4.320. or a reduction of £18.120. In this ~ccasion•; ruled against table~ bciug ~inserted case they did a fair thing, but they could 111 •• I--Iansard '' without being l'('ld. not get the same treatment in regard to Market Square. , Mr. FRY: Let me take first the market lane! in South Brisbane. It comprises allot­ L-et :me take another case "\vhere a burden ment 7, section 3, with an area of 2 acre-::! was placed on South Brisbane bY inflating 8 perrhcs., with a frontage of 4~ chnins to the value of the land. The values of land Cl0nelg street, 3 chains to Grev street 3 in 1888 could not be any more than the:v rhains to Stanlc"' streN. and 4f c-hains' to are to-day. The board of Yaluers presented· ots 13 and 16. , ndiwcl at £22.'750. "\llot­ a report of the Yaluations made on 26th _nents 1, 2. and 20. section 7--the land upon October. 1838. The Board valued at £82.740 ~\hi('h ::\Ie~:"r-·. \Yatson, Ferguson, and Com­ the South Brisbane wharYes. formerlY known· lan:, 's printing works now stand-han~ a as i),fusgrave ·wharf, with an area o.f 1 acre :'rontagc of 3 chqins. to Stanlcv street 3 3 roods, comprising lot 8. s' dion 5. with, chains 25 links to Glf~nclg strePt, ~and Yal{tecl front-age< of 301~ links to Stanlcy street. 25() at £17.820. A fc0-simple Yaluation wa;; lin':.s to Glenelg street. and 1 chain to St'ln­ t•lacecl upon th•' market rescne and no l'·: street. I doubt whether anYwhere near .a.djustn1ent arrived at, as in the case of tho tliat Yalue ccmld be obtained for th-ose fcrrv rcserYe. Th J:r,arkct rescrYc w;s whanc~ to-day. That has been a burden gtarltcd to the rnunicivality of rrisbano which South Brisbane has had to corn be­ under deed of grant. \Yhich shows that tho ca.uso of the separation of North and South lnnd \Yas granted upon trust a2. a 5-it• for a BriEbane. n1arket, and for no other p1U'!_JO .:.: \\ hatso­ Then again. t-ake the bridge allotment, CTCr. on condition that the C'on)(narion of a1lot.rn0nt 1, ~ "ction 9, area 1 rood~the yacant Bri~banr_• nnd thei~· ,,ucrcssor' sl-iould drain allot1nent at th0 b~ck of th0 Adelaide Stean1 thc }a,ncl. and pror:idc·d then, if the cou­ Ship Company·s Y\harf. This was valued (11tions. re::-cr,~arions. a11d lH'OYisoes thcrPin at £16,500. I question \Yhcther half of that cnntnincd or any part of thrnl be not dul,­ an1onnt could be obtained for that ]ancl to­ obsen_ecl and performed b,\' the Cor;JOrntloio daY. wt South Bri·-bane has had to carry of Bnsbanc and lheir succ0~-~ors. then the th~t burdeu all these years. That is anothei· hnd ,houlcl b<' forfeited. After the conYeY­ in~;tance \YhPL' hon. ~ n1c ....:Jhrrs n1ir;rht sav ancc uf the l'C'3C~",-c fro,ll Bri,,banc to South that South· Brisbane is getting a ~benefit, l~ri banc a certific-ate of tid0 undr-r the wb 'l'eas. if tbey are fair, they '''ill realise Rc•al Property Acts \Ya·' i,.med to the latte;' that Sodtb Brisbane v,as penalised in t-he (1D 7rh ::\nYP!:nl)(•r. 1890, shO\Yino· that thev first caso and had no option but to accept its \Yerc entitled to the fce-sin1pL~-_:-~ ~ liability. r\ny con1pensation ·which n1ay corne '; - f: Ying n hYa~· to the CrO\YD all the from this Bill is therefore warrantee!. A rights and intcn:sts pre~cr\· _,d bv tlw said certain amount of adjustment took place < 1 (:~•d of gra!Jt." ~ hot\yeen ;\Torth and South Bri bane at- th" time of the ·eparation. but the adjustment In 1914 the Council lca,C'cl portion of the was not fayourablc to South Bri~banc. l'C':"Ql",cl' to ::\lr-· r)r:::. \Ya t~on. Fc1·gu-:>on and Corupany. LiiniTetl. for a· tPl'n1 thir-'--v I r0alise ihat the Cih' of South Brisbane yrnrs, but upon prPscntation of the a'-c "·ill brne!it considl'ra blv under this Bill. the 'Titll'~ Offic·;, the Reg·i:-

-d the liabilities of the City of Brisbane, longer term will allow the Greater Brisbane [Lt anv rate, l

::Vlr. SIZER : If the hon. gentleman will

.\ n·:s. ::\OES . read the clause, he will find that there is :!\Ir. I>ea~e ::\'lr. t vterson power in the Bill to deal with those matters , .l<'oley Penie without moving the amendment. ,, \YII::;on ,, Appel Mr. HARTLEY: I bet you have not read the Resoh·cd in the affirmative. clause at all. Clause 32 agreed to. Mr. SIZER: I ha Ye studied the clause Clause 33-" Yictoria Bridge loan"- fa·r more than the hon. gentleman has done. If the hon. me!Ilber for Merthyr would read Mr. FRY (Eurilpa) : I am very glad, the clause thoroughly, he would find that indeed. to notice this load also is being lifted general powers are given which will enable from South Brisbane. The rate required to the Council to deal with the matters that he raise the precept of the Victoria Bridgo proposes to deal with by his amendment. Board on South Brisbane is approxii1ntely Still there seems to bo something sinister hvice as great as the rate required to rncot 111 ra1s1ng- the important question of the precept levied on the local authority on abattoir-s. I am speaking as one of those -the north side of the river. In addition to who will come into the Greater Brisbane ·that, the South Brisbane Council has had to area. It is a downright piece of in1pcrtin~ maintain Stanley street, Melbourne street, ence on the part of the Brisbane City Council ·Grey street, Vulture street, ,and many other to come to the Government at the present streets which have been torn up by traffic, moment asking for legislation to give them which rlid not all by any means belong to power to establish abattoirs so that they South Brisbant·. Tbey have had to bear the may pass the responsibility on to people in burden for districts much further removed, the outlying districts without giving those .and therefore I am glad to see the load people a voice in the matter . being lifted from the South Brisbane Council, on which it has placed another The Ho>rE SECRETARY: Is it not better to injustice. have the powers expressed beyond doubt? Clause agreC'...-1 to. M~. SIZER: The Government should take u determined stand and sav that the request Clause 34-" Current debentures 'Dhere that is now being made" for the right to .intern! only p:1yable by instalments"­ rush on the construction. of abattoirs at an agreed to. expenditure of £500,000 should be quashed ClauR" 35-" Powers and juri.,diction of the for the time being. It is not the functiOn Council''- of the Brisbane City Council to proceed with Mr. McLACHLAX (31enthyr): I beg to indecent haste with an expenditure of ·move the following amendment:- £500,000, and place the burden on the out­ lying districts. " On line 9, page 16, after the word­ Mr. McLACHLAN: Does the ban. gentleman ' -conveniences,' believe in a proper system of meat supply? insert the words- ' abattoirs: 1nilk supply: ' " ::Ylr. SIZER : I do. During my second reading speech I said that it was the duty Mr-. MAXWELL: \Vhy do you ,,-ant to do nf the Brisbane Citv Council or the Gr<'ater ~that? Is it necessary? ' Brisbane Council to oce that tlw people obta.ined pure meat which had been inspected Mr. McLAC'HLA::\': I think it is neces­ l::y competent officers. sary, and that is the reason whv I am mov­ ing it. No express power is given, but the Mr. McLACHLAN: That is what the amend- Council may require it. \Ve all know that 1:.1ent n1cans. Brisban0 is the only big city in the Com· 1lr. SII':ER: It me.ans a lot mote than monwcalth without up-to-date abattoirs, and that. I want to show the hon. member for I need not t~tke up tho time of the Com­ :"vi erthyr what can be accomplished without mit1 ee by arguing in favour of their estab· the acceptance of his amendnwn~ .. I believe ·rishment. It must be apparent to everybody the hon. gentlen1a-n is hone"t 111 h1s Intentions, that they are ne0ded. but he is not so much concerned as to Mr. MAXWELL: \Vhy do vou not le,n·e it to "·hcther the people obtain a pure meat priyato <"lltcrprisc? " supply. }Jr. McLACHLAN: I am very much con­ ::Vlr. McLACIILAX: I think that we Cc'rncd. I have just returned from the South, ·cshculd give the Council power to establish \\here I u.w the scheme in operation. abattoirs and undertake a pure milk supply. The pow0rs in the Bill are Yerv wide. but I }fr. f'\IZEH: The hon. gentleman is more do not think this power is included. . concf'rnecl about putting into operation one of the planks of his party dealing with Mr. KERR: They are vmy wide. 1nunicipalisation or nationalisation. Mr. McLACHLAK: Thev are; but I 'nnt l\!Ir. McLACHLAX: Is that not a good thing? to make sure that the establishment of abat­ Mr. l'vlAXWELL: No. toirs and providing a pure milk supply is possible. Mr. SIZER : I am opposed to it in every shape .and form. l\11·. SII':ER (Sanrl(!atc): I do not think Mr. :ilcLACHLAX: That is the milk in the the arnendment js necessarv. There secn1:;; cocoanut. The hon. gentleman is oppu·,.ed to to be somdhing sinister or something behind a plank of our platform. the amendment when it Pmanates frocn a m<'mber of the Brisbane Citv Council. \Ye Mr. SIZER: I am opposed to municipali­ are entitled to know wh:-- the' hon. gentleman sation in any sha.pe or form. has singled out abattoirs and the milk Mr. FARRELL interjected. supply. :1\'Ir. McLACHLAK: They are two very ::\Ir. SIZER : If the hon. member for important questions. Rockhampton had been in his place when I Mr. Sizer,]. 1562 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSE;\IBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

deli,·ered my -,econd reading >peech on this the course of an interview, said that there-­ Bill. he would haYe heard me distinctlY sav had bE>en some argument in fayour of public that I made a distinction between 'tr;!ding· a ba ttoi rs. He also said.- concerns-- .. Thev did not want to criticise the :\lr. FARRELL: The hon. gcntlcnla!l i~ in proposal to establish public abattoirs. the Chamber lcss than any ether hon. So far as this particuia r scheme was con­ ll1Clnber. e~rnecl. it furnished all that the public [4.30 p.lil.] abattoirs proposal would furnish. It would )HOYidc for the killing of cattle :\h. SlZER: The hou. gentleman is quite and sheep under rigid inspection and in :Yrong. l-Ie was a'vay l'n Rockhampton the most hYgienic manner, and there H1stcac1 of being here when I n1ade my would b' a" proper system of distribu­ spPech. The main function of the new ' ion that would give good scryice to the Council will he to see that the people of public, ProYided, therefore, that the Brisbane get food in the way of meat and prices w<'rc regulated and that the pubhc milk that is wholesome and p'ure. The only \Yerc not exploi.tcd, tho whole of the fqnction which deYolws on the Council is conditions and essentials of public that of iuspection, and, if it appoints com­ abatroirs ,,-ere fulfllled." p~t.ent oflicen to inspect and pass onlr meat That wa.s in reference to a scheme which wmch IS of first-class quahty, then It will was propounded by the ~razicrs' Association, do all that it is expected to do, and all that the people of Brisbane wish it to do. supported by the Prmmer. :\lr. CORSER: Xot when he had his spats­ :\Ir. MoLACHLAX: You know yery little on. (Laug·hter.) about the question if you say that is all they arc expected to do. :\lr. SIZER: Xo, not when he had his spats OJi. He had probably dumped them :\lr. SIZER: That is all that is exp-ected oYerboard then. The Premier endorsed th1s of the Council. I am strongly opposed to proposal, and I also endorse it for the pur­ municipal abattoin. A scheme has been put pose< of sayir~g that I am opposed ~o the­ fonYard by the graziers of Queensland which pPoplc of Bnsbanc bemg saddled w1th an is of far more importance to the community expcn~e that is unnecessary, as the graziers than the municipal scheme. It will give to thC'mseh·es are pr-epared to accept it. the people of Brisbane all that is required, HARTLEY : From philanthropic· and \vill not cost them a single penny. :\lr. HlOtiY('S? 0PPOSITIO::\ :\1E)IBERS: Hear, hear ! :Yir. SIZER: Xo, but they will supply :\lr. SIZER: The scheme which the hon. meat that is pure and wholesome. The member for :\Iert hyr and his colleagues have Cmnn1issioncr of Prices can fix the price, eYo!ved mll cost £500,000. and rlw scheme will haYo this dist-inct advan­ tage: 'That it will secure continuity of 1\lr. :'.1cL\CHL1.l\': Your argument goes to supply for the people of Brisbane, and a~ show that what I am asking for is not in the Bill the same time will enable Queenslanct gro\Ycr~ to take ad;-antage of Southern and' ~Ir. SIZER: I am opposed to municipal o\'ersca. markets, which a municipal scheme abattoi1·s, whether thcv are provided for in ,,-ill not do. \Vhen discussing these two the Bill or not. • eehemcs on their merits we must. admit that 1Ir. HARTLEY: I can quite understand both schemes \vill gin' sen-icc to the com­ that. munirv of Brisbane, but one scheme will cost ns £500/:00 and the other will cost us noth­ C\1r. SIZER : There is no need to place on in!'. and the one that will cost us _nothing the people a burden of £500,000 to establish 'vill aLso n1ake adequate provision for municipal abattoirs when the United Sou thorn and oversea export. If we do not Graziers' Ascociation-and they are the pro­ give our cat-tle growers what they are asking ducers of c;:,ttle-have evolved a scheme for, Y\'0 at·c lacking in our duty as a Parha­ which \vill give all the inspection that is rncnt. wanted. I aciont a similar attitude in the matter· :\lr. HARTLEY: \Vho proposes it? of tht' {ni1k supply. I am a.s solicitous as an> hon. nccmber in this House to see that :\Ir SIZER: The 'Cnited Graziers' Asso­ ciation. the people haYc a pnro and wholesome milk snppl:.-. bur I belie,-e that milk oupply should :Ylr. HARTLEY : Ah ! be controlled bv the farmers. Two pools have :\lr. SIZER: It is an association of cattle­ be0n sanctionc~l by the Secretary for Agricul­ gro,·-crs. ture with such an object in view, and the pro­ po:;::als haYe be011 carried bT_T itn ovenvheln1ing :ur. I-LmTLEY: Ah ! indiYidunl Yotc; vet thev ha ye failed :Yh. SIZER: I- there any objection to to f'C'C'lll'C the l'equisite 75 pet:' C('nt. rnajority, that? Is there any harn1 in the graziers and the scheme will not come into operation. who produce the meat putting forward a I hope to see the control of the milk supply scheme which will not cost. the communitY in rhe ha.nds of a. co-operative company one farthing. and which is going to- give the forn1cd b, the dairnncn thcnl~H:·h-os, under· conur.unity the seryice it v~'ants? the rigid. inspcctioll of the Citv Council, l-ndcr -suc-h circumstances the public will be :Yir. limTLEY: \Yait until you sit down, and I will tell you. aclequatdy af0guardcd. \Yf~ han: had no encouragement in any :\Jr. SIZER: Tho two "balh" cows in shapC' or form from State enterprises, and it the hon. member's back vard ,,-ill not furnish is time '"'' gm·o those particularly interested the meat SLtpply of B1:isbane. (Laughter.) in an inclustrv the right to control their The scheme of the graziers will give all the industry, pro,-lded they do not mako inroad; efliciencv that is wanted. I have no less an into the welfare of the community by unduly a!1thority.than the Premier to support me in exploiting them in the matter of prices. \V e that contention. That hon. gentleman, in are in a position to make every adequate,, [.Mr. Sizer. City oi Brisc)([ne Bill. [14 OcTOBER.] City of Brisbane Bill. 1563

prm·ision for such a scheme. \Ve can regulate this imte.nce, I think Sfttan could be likened the priccc., and, where. meat is concerned, to a SLmday school teacher compared with lay down tlw system under which it shall be t be hon. mernber, because he never con1es killed and distributed. \Yhere milk is con­ into this House except to make a speech in cerned we can lay down hygienic conditions the interc'-ts of some priYato co1npany, or for it~~ handling. If our Gf0ater Brisbane in the interests of priYate enterprise. Conncil do that, thev will fulfil their func­ :\fr. FRY: That is Yery uufair. tions and nothing n;orc. I arn not going to tolerate municipal trading in any shapfl ::VIr. HARTLEY : In this illotance, he or forrn. b came I belir;v0 we have had such appears as the opponent of municipal enter­ a gruelling· <·xpcrience of State trading, which prise in rela1ion to the supply of fresh, we have carried on at the expense of existing ~;ood wholesome lTI( :1t and pnre milk, in order industries and for which we have t.axed to safeguard the health of the people of struggli!lg indthtries in order to make good Brisbane. tile losses brought about by Sia>q trading. ':,lr. FRY : \'i'hat did the Premier say? Returning to the meat supply scheme, which has a direct bearing on this amend­ Mr. HARTLEY: You need not worry ment. the Premier was most emphatic on u bout what the Premier sard. That is his this point.. He said- opiuion. Our platform stands for the munic·ipalisation of public utilities for the " The City Council had been moving Lenefit of the people, and not for the in this matter, and it was necessary there­ ~tggrandisemcnt of, or for the .welling of, fore for them to know what the proposal the balance-sheet of the United Graziers'' was before the Gm"ernmont adopted it. Association, which the hon. member for He thought the local authorities and Sandgate has championed this afternoon. the Government. would be wise to give What is ihe trouble? The United Grftziers' careful consideration to the scheme and Association can see a good thing sticking to adopt it because it would relieve the rJnt in the establishment of abattoirs for the Council of its responsibility of raising k_illing of cattle and the distribution of meat, the money and running the scheme, while 1! they can get the Govcrnn1ent to as~ist in at the same time achieving the ends nuancing the scheme. That is the trouhlP. des1red.~' But will they distributp the profits? Of :\Ir. Brr.cocK: That is only one man's course, they will not. The profits will go to. opinion. anyhow. the united grazierf. Mr. SrZER interjected. :\Ir. SIZER: It is an opinion that cut-s far more rcc than the opinion of the hon. mem­ :YJr. HARTLEY: 1 am ,orry I have got ber for Barcoo. It is the opinion of the the hon. member squealing. Of course. when Premier of this State, who rules his partv an hon. member gets up to be the special and whips tlwm into line, and who tells then1 nleader for the l.'nitecl Graziers' A'•'ociation what he wants them to do. I give the Le ought to know~ "\vhat to expect. Premiu all credit as a deep thinker. The Mr. FRY interjected. ilon. gemleman has gone into this scheme Ycry c rdnlly. and from his experience as J\lr. HARTLEY: If the hon. member was an administrator he knows the difficultv of a fart. one \Y:ould need a microscope rai~ing rnoney and of running a,n indUstry tCJ ex ~n1i11(' him: he would be so in.,ignificant. und(!l.' Gon"\l'lll11ent control. I C'OJJgTatulate the hon. mernhcr for :iYlerthyr He reali", that (his scheme is sound and 0:1 lllOYing this amt•ndJncnL Tf the hon. l1lf'Tnbcr for Sandgatc realis0d the vJ.lue of \\~ilJ give the, 1wople all 1hey want-, and that ir v ill in,-o!Yc the people in no expense. The re, lw would realise that this is the right Jr>r:mf'nt to move it. He hides behind the PrrmiN' kno"~s pnfrctlv well that if the gro\H'rs take hold~ of the scheme it' will be cxrn~e 1hat it is going to land tho lircatPT' n, great ·~uccn-,:;. In view of that' everv man City of Bl'ishanc in an expenditure of, :Jpnroxintatdy, £500.080, and, as a reprcse~l­ ~n the e'Jn1Innnit:- nnEt give du~ weight to the Pre1nicr's ren1arks. and I am satisfied rntive of an out,ide area, he objects to that riwr tlw majority of The people hm e done area being saddled with a portion of that expenditure. If he &tayed there, he might ~o ]n this re.:::: ard be right; b,·c the amendment vcill be an T \'LElt to cuter 1 1:'\~ prot:st 3 gainst the ir,tinultinn to the Brisbane Citv Council l'\ a. thnt I represent being brought into any that a grPater authorit_\~ than the~·-that is, scheme that will saddle them with municipal Pal'liament, \Yhich con speak for the v.hole nading. I enter a, prote.'t at. the action of of Sandg~tt~-', vvitJ1 its sandBies and t!Jc presem Council of the City of Brisbane mosquit-oes-(laughter)-is in faxour of muni­ 111 att( 111pting to force this issue at the cipal enterprises. \Yhat \Yould be the position pre ·>.:nt nvm1cnt and atternpting to saddle on if this amendment was defeated. and the hon. t.hc people of Bnsbanc an f.'Xpcncliture vf r.1ember. \Yith his nriYntc Pnternrisr-.::;, had £5CO,C,OO when a Bill is pa~sing through hls wav? The United Graziers' -Association Parliament which will exterminate them and would ~no doubt take charge of the ~upply bring a ne\v body into being. I object on of rneat for Brisbane, but. not in the interest~ that gr-ound. and I object also because I do c; the people of Brisbane. It \>oulcl not. not bPlieYe in 111unicipal trading. concern them whether good or bad cattle were killed. :Hl'. EAHTLEY (l'itzroy) : I have much t.IP-tS.lUC' in cougratnl.uting the hoP. 1nember lVIr. BELL: Don't be silly. for San>:i!!"~lC' 011 cmYting to light thi') n_fter~ :\h. IIARTLEY: The old '' ,J,pJl,~" cmn l!O·Hl c)n tl'Il rtnlc·ndmcnt, 0\~Cn though it was \.rhi('h had pa':,sed their br edlng da~,s would onl~' to pcsP af' a :::.pecial pl ~aclcr for tht~ Le brovght into the slaughter-yards as being· i_--nited c;rfl?icrs' A:-~oe:intion. It is rather quite good 0nongh for the people of Briobane. 1a 1 tlrhn.Flt: to hrar t1H'" hon. member 1'en1ark \\hi le the:>- shiH1ed the prime cattle. to member,, on this side. " If thev had been in theie p1aces." It sound'-i YE'l:_,..~ 1nuch to l\11-, :\lAXWELL : \Yhf·re would the n1E· li1 e Satan reprcn-ing sin. In facl, in impectors be? Jlr. Hartlcy.] 1564 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSEl\IBLY.] City of Brisbane Bill.

l\h. HAHTLEY: I am sorry I am getting Mr. HARTLEY: The hon. member does on the nerves of hon. members opposite, but not know anything about. rt. I have often I cannot help it. bBCn n~ilk going to the railway statton to be Mr. Kr:w: You are only telling us 1vhat sent to Brisbane. It is brought from you would do yourself. the Brisbane station in bi3' tanks hold· ing !lnything fron1 a ~ouple of hundred Mr. HAHTLEY: These are the people g-al!·ons up\Vd tanks art' not cleaned out once a ·week. purely for profic irrespective of the health :"vir. SlZER: Do you know--- .or well-being of the community. ::\lr. HARTLEY: I know the hon. member Mr. KING: " Suspicion haunts the gullty has a yoicr' like a bull who has broken h1s m1nd." Yoice. (Lrmghter.) I ha.vo much pleasure• Mr. HARTLEY: They would like inspec­ i~1 supporting the an1endmrnt b0c~use lt tors appointed just to ke-ep the public quiet, :means a good wholeson1c supply of ncult_h~~ but under a municipal scheme the concern 1ncat and a gond clean suppl~"~ of. pure nulk would be conducted healthily in the best for the children of the c1t:-- wrthout any interests of the people, and the cost of inspec­ profit to the graziers, for w_hon1 the hon. tion would be far less, because there would mombe1· appears to be a. ~pec1al pleader. b~ le'S incentive to any practice which would l\Io-. 1\TORGAK (Jiuri!la): The hon. mem- lead to the supply of an inferior quality of 1-,cr for Fitzroy is sin1ply ignorant and ut~fair. meat. and therefore it would be to the ~.'\fter listening to his rmnarks I arn sau~fied advantage of the Citv of Brisbane to have that he knov,s nothing about the matter. this amendment inserted in the Bill, so that (Opposition laug-hter.) In my opinion he they could have their own municipal abat­ has not read the scheme which has been toirs. piEced before the Premier-not by the \Yhen we come to the question of a milk rnited Graziers' Association. but by the supply. thP hon. member's case, and that of cattle-owners of Queensland. There are two anybody who supports him, is 100 times associations in Queensland to-day, one known worse. Anybody with eyes in his head who as the rnited G!'aziers' _\ssociation and the w.tlks around the citv and sees the milk other as the Cattle Growers' Association. supply will be staggered. which combined in placing the scheme before Mr. MnwELL: ·what is the matter with the Premier. it? l\Ir. l-IARTLEY: That is why I said the Mr. HARTLEY: E.-erything is wrong: united graziers. there is very little right in connection with Mr. ::V10HGAN: That scheme would mean it The hon. member for Enoggera said on the establishment of public abattoirs in Bris­ one occasion that he foLmd beer piping .and ba-ne. I want to point out the. diffe,-e,:ce many other things mixed up with it. It bet\Ycen municipal abattoirs and tnose winch show; how much he knows about it. Anv­ would be established under thrs scheme. body who buys the average quality of milk :Mr. HY!':ES: One would exploit the people sold in Brisbane will verv soon find o>e Yalue of caHle in (~ucemland. milk supply companies. the breeding of v hict1 is distinctly show;c by to 9 the ba.lancc-sheet of the State statwm Mr. MAJ<;WELL: \Yhere are they be a lo ing propcsition. The cattle indt>str~· ::\11·. HARTLEY: 'The milk that comes is second only to the wool 1ndu:sr~ ~ 111 into Brisbane practically lands here at least Quoc·nsla ne! twcnty-fnur and sometimes thirty-six hours Mr. HARTLEY: The~· do \Yant to get a. old before it gets into the hands of the greater .-alue for their cattle·: people. Mr. SrzER: That is wrong. ::VIr. :v10RGAX: They do. bnt not a oTeater price for i.heir 1110a-t, b£>CclUSE' \Ve Mr. Hc\HTLEY: \Ye will sav it is twenty- ~lain1 that there is a huge differen('e hehvr-en four hour'-- • wha.t the grazier gets and what the butcher Mr. SrzER: That is wrong. sells for, a.nd that under our schem<> there LMr. Hartley. City of Bricbane Bill. [14 OcTOBER.] City of Briquane Bill. 1565 wou],; be no difference in the price to the :\Ir. MORGAN: Xo. Unfortunately the comumer. but the,t the stockowner would get hon. member for ::Werthyr is not broad a be1ter price because of better facilities for enough in his ideas. I have no objection to distribui ion. The municipal abattoirs "·ould his amendment because it means lit-tle or slauvhter only 1,000 cattle a week-which is nothing; but I would like him at the Bris­ all rlJUt is necessary to fe,•·l the c;tv of Bris­ bane City Council meeting to point out that bane and suburbs-\vhereas the · ab.1ttoirs there is something more in the graziers' which would be erected under the schc•n1e of scheme than merely the supplying of meat tloe cattle-o\vners and would be under the to the city of Brisbane and suburbs. He control of representatives, not only of the shoul-d view the matter in a broader way, cattlc-ow1wrs themselves but also of the and r-ecognise that the cattle industry of municipality of Greater .Brisbane and the Queensland is the second greatest industry in GoY 3nment-which in itself shows ti1at the the State, and is likely to remain so, pro­ stocko\'rners are not out to fieecc the con­ vided it gets a fair and square go from the sumers of Brisbane but io bring l: tck to municipalities. \'\'hat is this parochial view prosperity the great cattle industry of that has been preached by the hon. member Qnccn!-,land, which is strangled fron1 an for Fitzroy, and what is this parochial view export point of Yiew-would be designed to that has been adopted by the Brisbane City supply :\Iclboume, Sydney, and ,\.delaide Council? If the cattle industry is not wit-h chilkd meat. fostered, people will go out of it day by day. At 4.55 p.m., The CHAIR:\IAX : Order ! The hon. The CH.\IR}fAX resumed the chair. gentl-eman must discuss the amendment, :.\h. :\IORGA).J : They are the reasons why which is to giYe the Greater Brisbane Council we think it would be much better to have power to construct abattoirs and institute a abattoin established in Brisbane under the pure milk supply. control of the municipality, the Government, :!\lr. ::VIORGAN: This is a very big sub­ and the stocko'.vners, instead of being con­ ject, and I must go a little out of my way trolled solely by the Brisbane City Council. in connecting up my remarks with the :\Ir. HARTI.EY : The hon. gentleman knows amendment. \Ve are d-ealing with the that the object of that scheme is to obtain second largest industry of the State, and I greater profits for the grazier. am pointing out that, if the local authority, instead of establishing its own abattoirs, :.\11'. :\IORG~\:c\: Does the hon. gentleman would combine ·with and assist the graziers, object to the grazier obtaining a better price the people in the future would obtain meat for his ea ttle ? at a price cheaper than they are likely to :\Ir. HARTLEY: No. obtain it in a few vears. The people of :.VIr. ~.IORG.\::\': The balanc-e-sheet of the Brisbane are paving ·a high pric-e for their State stations shows that the cattle industry beef. I sav ad,:iscd.lv that never before in is not paying to-day. the history· of Queensland have the butchers The CHAIR:\IAN : Order ! in Brisbane and its suburbs made such huge profits in retailing meat as they have dona }lr. MORGA::\f: Instead of establishing in the last two or three vears. abattoirs to be controlled by the Brisbane :l>Ir. F'RY: Why is that? City Council, it is proposed by the scheme submitted to the Premi-er bv the stock- Mr. MOHGA!\<: I wieh to sav in enswer 0\Ynrrs of this State-- ' to the hon member for Fitz1~ov th«t no butcher in Queemland is kiliing more }lr. HARTLEY: \Vhy could they not get the "she1lv" cattle to-d~y than the State same Yalue for their cattle with municipal butche~·ies. abattoirs'? ::\Ir. HARTLEY : \Yha t rot ! l\Ir. :\IORGA::\f: The municipal abattoirs \Yould be concerned only with the killing of The CHAIR:'lfAX: Order ! I ask the hon. cattle for the supply of meat to the city and member lo connect his remarks with the roburb' of Brisbane. whereas under the Dmendmcnt before the Committee. srhf'n1c proposed b~v the graziers, to be con­ Mr. MORGAX: I want to point out to trolled by the Council, the Government, and the hon. member who moved the amt>ndment the stockowners, cattle will be slaughtered that I consider the scheme for the establish­ to supply beef not only to Brisbane and its ment of public abattoirs U!J(]er the control suburbs, but also tD the Southern States, of the graziers, which has been and also to establish a chilled meat industry [5 p.m.] placed before and approved of by in Qne

1'ot grow beef to any extent. Much of its i1.dustry, the cattle men will go out of the beef supply come;; from "\V estern, Central. industry, and the price of meat "ill become and l'\orthcrn Queensland, which po- iesses exorbitant. something like 75 per cent. or 80 per cent. uf the total supply o[ beef in Australia .. ::\lr. B'C'LCOCK (B·trcoo): The hon. mem­ Enonnous nuril bers of cattle are sent out of ber who moved this motion is to be con­ Queensland each year. An attempt is_ being gratulated on having brought it forward, made to esi ab!ish a trade between Bn-;bane. more especially in view of the fact that there .Svdney, l\Ielbourne, and Adelaide. The con· is a considerable public agitation for some clitions in Brisbane arc altogether different improved method of storing and handling tc, those existiug in Adelaide.~ I claim, there­ meat. Since that is obvious, t\vo phases of fore, that it will be far better for hon. the question present themselves-the one that members oppo· ite and those interested in the was advocated bv the hon. members for ·c&ttle industry, to assist the scheme put for­ 11urilla and Sandgate, and the ot.her repre­ ·warcl bY the stockowners and approved of senting thr~ consensus of opinion of hon. lw the 1'rcmier in eYery possible way. members on this side of the Chamber. The The HmiE SECRE1'ARY: That. has nothing hon. member for ::\1urilla was rather amusing .to do with the amendment. The amendment in his advocacv. He stated that thev have ·only gives the Council the power to estab­ a. perfect meat" supply in Adelaide, and that lish abattoir, if it so desires. the !1cople get a maximum amount of service in the matLr of their meat supply. A per­ Mr. MORGA::-.1: We c'ln see what is fect meat supply means that nothing is to bappening by the resolution that was carried be desired, and that they have the best <>t a meeting of the City Council yesterday. supply possible, under the most ideal circum­ Mr. JYicLACHLA,;: h not the press report stances; and the hen. member for Murilla .a very good one'! admits that such is the case in Adelaide . What is the basis of that meat supply? Is Mr. MORGA"-': The report might bo ver:;· it under the control of the people themselves full and correct, but it would be a fatal -a municipal activity controlled bv a board mistake for the aldermen to proceed w1th -or is it one that is handed over to the the scheme. The council proposes to approach tender mercies of exploitation by the private the Govemment for a loan of £500.000 to trader? The hon. member for Mm·illa has establish abattoirs. said that the cattlemen propose to ask this The Hm.IE SECRETARY : If you carry this House to put a B1ll through in order that .amendment, they will not come. they may strike a levy enabling them to Mr. MORGA='J: It should not be tolerated collect monev to establish abattoirs and a for one moment. 1 hope the Premier will meat export' branch of the industry. How turn the scheme down, because it is brought long would it t.ake for that to be done? forward by men who do not know anythmg The need is imperative in this instance. Too about the subject. much time has been lost alrc·ady, and I venture to say that hundreds of people have Mr. MAXW~LL: That does not matter. lost their lives through the inadequate super­ The CHAIRMAN : Order ! vision of the milk and meat supply in the metropolitan area. Apart from that con­ Mr. MORGA='J: It is a scheme that is sideration, the cattlemen have not shown likely to result in a huge blunder, if gone any very great businec, acumen in conducting ·on with. I hope the Minister will see eye their own affairs. They have had any number to eye with the Premier, and will not allow of opportunities for exploiting the London parochial matters to interfere with his judg­ ment. The hon. member for Fitzrov think3 market. Yet what do we find? They sell the whole purpose of the scheme to the meat here at 2~d. a lb., and it fetches is from ls. 4d. to ls. 6d. a lb. in London. In ·8Xploit ihe consumer. other directions thev have not been able Mr. HARTLE).: That is really what you to control the industry in the way it should are after. be controlled. There is no industry in Aus .. Mr. 1IORGA:'\: The hon. member is tralia to·day that has squealed more for wrong. He usually looks at things Government assist.ancc than the cattle indus­ ·differently. try. There is no industry in Queensland The SECRETARY FOH PVBLIC LANDS : \Yha t to-day that has got more assistance from the 'about you and the hon. member for Fitzroy Government than the cattle industry. They ,c•ttling it by arbitr,ttion? have got a,,,istance in the form of a reduction of rents, a remission of freights, and in J\lr. MORC:A~: X ever mind about that. various other ways; a.nd no\v they arc asking 1 want the hon. member for Fitzroy 10 look that they be given the right to establish

·public utilit'" should be established. \Ve all Then you come to the question of public 'know the very great dangers that the mem­ utilities for the public benefit or for private bers of the community are running at the gain. I say that the public must be con­ present time in relation to the meat supply. c.idercd in connection with the meat and \Ve know that only about 65 per cent. of milk supply. It i8 d by the meat inspec. under anv f'ircL~mstanccs, be a question of tors. \Ve know also that tubercular beef " profit or~ gain for the indiYiduals ''"ho are rroing into consumption, and that under th" fmtunatP enough to establish abattoirs present haphazard system of killing~a Jittloe under thE' proposition which is being put ·abattoir here and a little slaughter-y.trd thcr•e forward ln· the representatives of the cattle ~adequate supervision is not po~~ible. It is men in th.is Chamber to-dav. I belioYO that a question of the public health against pri­ the tinw· hr:.s come when Lmcat. 1nilk, and vate interesi s. Tbe public health can be best other commodiiics of that nature will be served by the total elimination of private rPgardcd as public enterprises, a!ld tho?e interests and private enterprise. and the sub­ "ho oppose that ~ystcm to-day w1ll be 111 stitution of Government authority and regula­ tia1c C'Ol'!Yf>rtrd. En:n the hon. mmnber for tion from the time the beef or mutton an-ives ?.1urilla has been <8nvertcd to the system of here on the train until it is finallv dished mnnif'inal abn1toir~ ln~ his great culogv of .on the consumer's table. " th;, co'ndud of the nnmicipal abattoirs in Mr. SIZER: By inspection. . ancther plac·e. ~Ir. BULCOCK: lt cannot be done bv Mr. :YloRGAX: You cannot understand the the ~)resent system of inspection, because th~e difference. One is merelv to deal with loo::\] slaughter-yard& are situated at too great dis­ sappl,v. and the other is for export purposes. tances apart. Therefore, you ha,-e to bring· cvlr. BL'LCOCK: It would be fallacious it down to one central killing authority. and at th0 present time to establish abattoirs .!bat one CBntral killing authority, to my h£>rc for n1E.at export purposes in view of mind. and to the mind of most progressive the numher of abattoirs we now have. The ihinkers, is essentially the killing authority hon. member knows that there is a consider­ that is subservient to the people and regu­ able difference of opinion as to whether new 'iated by the people, and thereby do away abattoirs sho"uld be established for the export with the desire of exploitation, with the trade. or whether some of the existing abat­ .desire of personal gain, and with the desire toirs should not be taken over. The con­ to seorc at the expense of the community. sensus of opinion is in favour of taking over No public utility that involves the question abattoirs for the meat export trade. I do of pubhc health can be adequately controlle.d not think we would have any serious objec­ by private enterprise. For that reason. I tion to the hon. member taking them over hope the Minister will accDpt the amend­ ancl doing as he likes in regard to export of ment, .,nd I congratulate the hon. memller meat, so long as our local needs are first for Merthrr on moving it. satisfled. and we have a healthy and abun­ I do not want to be egotisticai in this dant supply of meat. ·matter, but quite recently I have been doing :Mr. siORGAX: \Ye could do that. .3ome slide-work in connection with the met­ ?.fr. BULCOCK: Wo know that the ropolitan milk supply, and I can assure hon. scheme encouraged by the hon. mcmper for members, to. put the case very mildly, that Mm·illa will probably inyolve an outlay of ·the metropolitan m1lk supplv leaves much to £2,000.000. whereas the cost of central abat­ be de·;: \Ye can do eyerything we after the milk from the sliprails on. You want with £500.000. ·can only harmor,ise the two factors bv hav­ ing ono body looking after the mill_; from Mr. BULCOCK: The hon. member knows the tim" it is delin•red from the cow until that he is talking with his tongue in his -;t finally rt'aches .the consumer, but it is cheek. It >Yould require £500.000 for tho obvious that that svstcm does not obtain at establishment of a municipal distributing the pre•.cnt time. ·Many S' "toms ha,·c been centl'c alone together with the necessary rl0vis0d to trY and oyerconlC-' the variotu appliances. 'This~ is a far greater question difTicultics that occur in this direction. It than tlw mere question of municipal enter­ is nbYiOU'" ibat 1nunicipal rcguJation of the pris<'. It is a question of whether the people milk is th0 only thin,; that is ~;oing to pro­ shall be sen-ed by their own instruments teet the interevts of the commur•it:·. for their own presen-ation, and be governed bv tlwmsP!Ycs. or ',';hether they 10hall be An 0PPOSIT'IOX JYfE)IBER: How U\'1 that be handed oYer to the exploiter who will sell done? di•cased mear and get the biggest possible ~Ir. RTJT:COCK: I would C'xplein it if I profit for himself. ~Hon. members opposi_te v Prc in order, but I quest] on IYhctllf't I sav. "GiYe us a ::\Ioat Trust. and we 11! wnnld b~ in order in doing so at the 11rcscnt .allow the price to be reg·ulated." The hon. stag('. Meat. and milk arc hYo of the most memlwr for Sandgate suggested a regulatJOn ,~]t;d faetors in our conllTiunity, and insPpar­ of m'ices. A YC!'V remote contingency ! ahl,v bound up with them is the heo.lth of the AssU:ming that the ·Labour party were not commnnitv. \Ye all know that tubercular in nower, how long ·would the office of the milk is g'oing- into C'on~un1ption. I venture Commi·,.·ioncr of Prices last" The people ·to sav that anv dav in the wPek tuberculous would be handed over to the tender· mercies matter couJcJ. 'be SCparatPd from the milk of the exploiters, of the cattlemen and supp1y of Brisbane in numbcrlr~~s instances. others. who would make them pay on a par Pa"tcurisntiou is neccss1ry, and the control with those in the South~from ls. 6d. to 2s. -~,f thE' milk sunply by the municipal autho­ a lb! \V" have some protection here and rity will bring that about. some regul.ation, and, if we can only extend Mr. Bnlcock.] 1568 City of Brisbane Bill. [ASSElVIBLY.] Questions. that protection and consolidate our position by controlling our own utility by the estab­ lishment of a municipal meat and milk supply, we shall do well. ::\1r. \L\RRE=" (Murrumba): I have been very much struck by the difference of opinion which exists as to the milk supply of Brisbane. One must admit that there is a great need that something should be done, and I have expressed the opinion more than once that personally I do not care whether the Health Department or the City Council of Brisbane controls it. The hon. membe1· for Fitzrov stated that the milk companies get thei1; supplies in largo containers. I do not think that any milk is taken to the consumers of Brisbane in any containers over 8 gallons, and I do not think the diseas·e starts in those con­ tainers at all. First of all, I am not going to say that too great a proportion of· diseased cows is being milked, and this amendment does not touch on that matter at all. An Act of Parliament would be required sanctioning some scheme whereby the Citv Council or some other authoritv could control the outside supply of mill{. That would have to be done, or it would have to be handed over to a co-operative company. ::\lr. HmTLEY: A municipal supply would control that. l\1r. \VARRE:"<: I would like to know from the hon. member what is wrong with co-operation. Mr. HARTLEY: There is nothing wrong with it. :'\Ir. \\"ARREN: The hon. member talked about the beef barons making big profits. Do the butter factories make big profits? Mr. HARTLEY: They make very fair profits. ::\Ir. \VARREN: Absolute nonsense They do not make any profits at all. If this ochemc fo-r the supply of health:: meat to the people of Brisbane wen~ put into operation, it would not be a profit-makmg concern. r;eithe!· would it, if an arrangement \YCl'e made between the j1l'oducers of milk and the City Council or the Home Secretary's Department by which a co-opcratiYe concern took control. It would not put one penn;.· more into the pockets of the producers. \Vhat is the scheme for the organi,ation of ihe farmers designed for? Merel0 that they may handle their business in a co-operative wav. I maintain that co-operation is able to do the proper thing, a,nd no organisation. whether Government or municipal, can take the place of a properly run co-operative concern. The milk supply is wrong from bcg·inning to end. There has been no improvement for fifty years. The hon. mem­ ber "'·as quite right in some respects and the Secretary for Public Instruction was also correct in his statement about t:w milk snpply. The ·rea,on why we are ,uffering from these disabilities is that nothing has Leen clone by any authority, and ihe pro­ ducers cannot get together to improve matters. It has been the desire of all milk suppliers for a numbc,· of years to improve the conditions of things. At 5.25 p.m., The CHAIR:VIAX left the chair, reported pro­ gress, and asked leave to sit again. The resumption of the Committ0e was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow. 'I'he House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. [Mr. B1~lcock.