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Conversations CCONVERSATIONSONVERSATIONS WITHWITH CCLEMENTLEMENT MMOKOK ANDAND JJAKOBAKOB NNIELSENIELSEN,, ANDAND WITHWITH BBILLILL BBUXTONUXTON ANDAND CCLIFFORDLIFFORD NNASSASS (INTERVIEWED AND EDITED BY RICHARD ANDERSON) Photo by Steven Pemberton (top left) Bill Buxton, (bottom left) Clifford Nass (above, left to right) Clement Mok, Jakob Nielson, and Richard Anderson 46 interactions...january + february 2000 article The 1999 Conference on Human Factors in Computing (CHI 99) had as its theme “The CHI is the Limit.” At the conference, participants posed the following questions: What are the limiting factors to the success of interactive systems? How can we enable users Jakob Nielsen Tto overcome those limits? What techniques and methodologies do we have for iden- tifying and transcending limitations? And just how far can we push those limits? This theme and its questions provided a framework for the first live interview sessions to be conducted at a CHI conference. Tapped for these interview sessions were itself as the architects for the new economy. In some of HCI’s most original thinkers. 1988, Clement founded Clement Mok Clement Mok and Jakob Nielsen were asked Designs, later renamed Studio Archetype, to to address the Web and Web design limits to establish clients’ digital presence using interac- human–computer interaction (HCI). Bill tive media and eventually the Internet. (Stu- Richard I. Anderson Buxton and Clifford Nass tackled human lim- dio Archetype was acquired by Sapient Usability/Design/ its to HCI. Wayne Gray and Bill Gaver com- Corporation during 1998.) Before forming Discovery Adventures pared their perspectives on methodological his own agency, Clement spent 5 years as a 63 Woodside Lane limits to HCI. And Don Norman and Janice creative director at Apple Computer. Clement Mill Valley, CA 94941 Rohn squared off to address organizational is the author of Designing Business: Multiple (415) 383-5689 x2 limits to HCI. The interviewer was the Inter- Media, Multiple Disciplines, published by Fax: (415) 383-5187 views Chair for CHI 99—Richard Anderson, Adobe Press. [email protected] whose work is all about setting the stage for Jakob Nielsen is a principal of the Nielsen [email protected] avoiding or overcoming limits to HCI and Norman Group, a user experience consultan- [email protected] who has conducted several interview sessions cy. Until July 1998 he was a Sun Microsys- http://www.well.com/ over recent years on the stage of the BayCHI tems Distinguished Engineer and the user/riander/ program. company’s Web usability guru. Jakob coined Two of those CHI 99 sessions are repro- the term “discount usability engineering” and duced here. At least one of the other sessions has invented several usability techniques for will appear in an upcoming issue. fast and inexpensive improvements to user interfaces. Jakob’s most recent book is titled Web and Web Design Limits Designing Web Usability: The Practice of Sim- to HCI: A Conversation plicity (New Riders Publishing). with Clement Mok and Jakob Nielsen Richard Anderson: Are most Web sites The first session paired individuals who have well designed? come to the Web from very different places. Both have made impressive contributions to Jakob Nielsen: Definitely no. My conclu- the Web and to Web design. sion is that about 90 percent of all Web sites Clement Mok is chief creative officer of have miserable, miserable usability. That does Sapient Corporation, a consultancy that bills not mean that the other 10 percent are great; interactions...january + february 2000 47 and have been very comfortable with. In looking at the Web and the Internet, each community or discipline needs to fundamen- tally look at their genetic makeup and their DNA and at what they consider “good” to be, and then challenge the assumptions on which they base their views. Jakob Nielsen: Actually, I think that a lot of the things that we do know are still wait- ing to be applied. This applies to the soft- ware. .for example, makers of Web browsers still need to implement a lot of the things that we knew in the hypertext field 10 years ago. If we would just do what we Clement Mok and Jakob Nielsen it just means that they are acceptable. That know, we would get better browsers. also does not mean that users spend 90 per- Regarding Web sites, I’m leaning toward cent of their time at bad Web sites. People the view now that Web sites are just funda- spend most of their time at the good sites, mentally never going to really make it. When but if you look across all Web sites, the vast, I say “never,” I mean in the next 10 years or vast majority are extremely difficult to use. so, because any substantial Web site is a con- tribution of a very large number of people. Clement Mok: I’m going to answer very You can have a central design team in a com- much like a graphic designer as well as an pany that is in charge of the home page and art director: it depends. I honestly don’t in charge of the information architecture think that our criteria for good Web site and search and big picture kinds of things. In design have been determined. The very fact many companies, there are decent people that we quickly make judgment calls about working on these things who have a decent what is good reflects a bias; our judgments clue as to how to do them. So, those things are loaded and are colored by a set of lenses. may in fact be done well. But, take five clicks Jakob is from a constituency in this commu- from the home page, and what are you nity that is coming to the Web from soft- going to get? Something horrible done by a ware development, while I and others come product marketing manager in Kentucky. So to the Web from the world of communica- the challenge is not just to get the central tion design. We both have a bias going into Web team back at headquarters to under- this world, and within those limited param- stand how to do good Web design, because eters say things like, “good is about clarity we are achieving that via our speeches and of communication;” or “good is about books and consulting and such. The chal- usability;” or “good is about performance,” lenge is to get the thousands of people who Clement Mok when in fact, a good Web site is all these are contributing their content to understand things with nuances of gray in-between. good Web design; that is a much harder chal- lenge—a challenge that I don’t think will be Richard Anderson: Clement, in your book met over the next 10 years. Designing Business, you talk about how old Intranet design is even worse, because habits die hard. What are some of the old there you have some random person in the habits that you believe are holding us back next department creating Web pages. It’s a or slowing things down in Web design? long time coming before we get all these people to understand how to do Web Clement Mok: Old habits holding us back design well. reflect the things that we don’t know; we very often fall back on things that we know Richard Anderson: Talk about some of 48 interactions...january + february 2000 article the disciplines you both say need to be interface is your customer interface; the two involved in the design of Web sites. What are the same. Therefore, you need usability are some of them, and why should they be to be there, because if people can’t use the involved? Web site, they are going to become cus- tomers of some other company. Clement Mok: Let me start with just a few But the right business model also has to be from my perspective. The Internet started there. out to be a communication medium, so the On the other hand, we should not be say- discipline and craft of communication ing that you can’t design any Web site unless design is apropos for Web site design. But you have a team of 50 people, including Richard Anderson the Web has evolved into a way of doing three Harvard MBAs. Sometimes just one business, a way to conduct transactions. So person is enough. But in that case, you have skills that have to do with interaction to have all these little hats to put on. And design, software design, application design you’ll need to put on your little usability hat … are needed. once in awhile and say things like, “Let me But those are just the surface disciplines. go and get some other person in and see if You also need to have a good understanding they can use the site.” So even if you’re the of the psychology and the social science only person involved, you still need to get behind how people interact with the world. that outside perspective. Understanding the ergonomics of how something is used is not enough. The Inter- Richard Anderson: Jakob, the working net and how we deal with the Internet is title of your upcoming book is Secrets of an only a part of a bigger picture. We need to Information Architect. What are some of understand how it all fits in with our daily those secrets? lives. That entire spectrum of disciplines is need- Jakob Nielsen: I can’t tell you; you’ll have ed. It might be difficult to apply all disci- to buy the book! (audience laughter) plines on every single project. But when one There are a lot of different levels of infor- looks at the projects out there and the kinds mation architecture, and some of the more of Web sites that get implemented—many fine-grained levels may not be appreciated.
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