University of at El Paso ScholarWorks@UTEP

Combined Interviews Institute of Oral History

8-5-1976

Interview no. 414.1

Rudolfo Candelaria

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Recommended Citation Interview with Rudolfo Candelaria by Oscar J. Martínez, 1976, "Interview no. 414.1," Institute of Oral History, University of Texas at El Paso.

This Article is brought to you for free and open access by the Institute of Oral History at ScholarWorks@UTEP. It has been accepted for inclusion in Combined Interviews by an authorized administrator of ScholarWorks@UTEP. For more information, please contact [email protected]. UI{IVERSITY()F T:XAs AT EL PASS

I}ISTITIJTTOF .]RAL iIISTORY

iiITEI?VIE:JEE: RodolfoCandelaria (.|904- )

Ii{TEIIVIE1IER: 0scar J- Martinez PRflJTCT:

DATECF Ii'!TEfiVIE'I : Auoust 5. 1976 TEP.|,;SCF UST: Unrestri cted

TAPI i.tO.: 414A

Tp.Al",lscRIPT ilit . : 414A TRAITSCiIIiIER: i]AT[TR'\NSCRI3ED:

BiilNNAPiJICALSYI.ISPS IS OF IiiTiRVIE'^![E :

.|904. Bornin El Paso,Texas in

SU;iiiARY0F II'ITERVIE'i:

Biographica'linformat'ion; growing up in Secondlnlard ; sc hool ; Mexicansin govern- ment jobs and politics; the MexicanRevolution; Prohjbition; jobs held; ASARCO; the Depression.

LeirgthOf Intervier": I hour Lenothof Transcript: 29 pages Rodolfo0rlando Candelaria August5, 1976 by OscarMartinez

M: First, Mr. Candelaria,can you tell mewhen and where you wereborn?

C: I wasborn here in El Paso,the l3th day of February,1904, at 907S. Stanton.

M: That's in SouthEl Paso.

C: That's riqht. weall usedto call it el segundobarrio, Secondward. M: couldyou tell mea little bit aboutyour parents,their background?

L: we1l, ny father wasborn in Ysleta, Texas. Mymother was born in La Mesilla, NewMexico; 01d Mesilla. Andthey weremarried in ysjeta, Texas. WhenI grewup and knewmy dad, he wasworking with the police

Department.The Police Departmentwas then on 0verlandStreet and Stanton. It wasioined by the Fire Department.The Fire Departmentwas gight on the corner of SouthStanton; next wasthe Police Department,a two-story

building. 0n the lowerfloor washis office andChief of Police--I don,t recall his name--andon the secondfloor wasa court, the corporation

Court. Andthen there wasan al1ey, and then there wasa Chineselaundry. Myschool days were at st. Mary's. It usedto be on Myrile and Ange

street. ThereI went for six grades,as far as all the grammarschool I had. ThenI started working. I usedto work for RamonTelles. I was trying to makemyself an automobilemechanic. I workedthere for a whi1e, and then whenone day he sent meto a machineshop to havea block rebored,

fit rings andgrind the bearings,I said, ,,Uh,uh. Myjob is not goingto be a mechanic,I'm goingto be a machinist.,,So I shifted. I started workingin shops. Thefirst shopI workedin wasEl pasoFoundry. But beforethat I wentto El PasoHigh School; I took manualtraining. My teacherwas Mr. Sacksin the machineshop. I took MachineShop practice,

ROTC,and the Maththat we neededin MachineShop. ThenI aiso servedwith CANDELARIA

the TexasNational Guard, 36th Division, E company,131st Infantry. I wastheir SupplySergeant. Andsince I knewa'little aboutmechanics, I

wastaking care of the rifles, repairing. A11that repair wasjust to

rep'laceparts; [I] didn't haveto makethem. Andthen I comeback to old El Paso. Downon SouthStanton we had RamonGomez, who was the father of 'living. ModestoGomez, who's still

M: ModestoGomez, .yeS. I interviewedhim. C: He told you morethan I can, becausehe is older than I. He knewme since

I wasa kid. He taught mehow to drive a car, he hada FordModel T. And

he wasworking for the International cigar company.He taught mehow to drive a Studebakerand a Ford. AndI usedto go aroundwith himon sales. That wasbefore what I said before. ThenKid payoand Jim payo, they're unclesof Saul Paredes.Do you knowhim?

I don't knowhim personally, I knowof him. He can te'I1 you more;he wasmy next door neighbor. Is he aboutyour age?

No, he is older. Saul Paredesis around75, moreor less.

I'm curious to knowwhat you rememberabout growing up in SouthEl Paso. we]1, at that time southEl Pasowas nothing but a little town;we had everythingc'lose by. Bakerywas owned by the Paredesfamily.

Acrossthe street wasa butchershop, owned by a fellow namedChema, that washis nickname. He passedaway. Wehad everything around here. Another

place that we usedto get togetherwas The Quien Sabe. That wasowned by an ltalian, it wason 4th and SouthStanton. Andthen there wasthe First Baptist Churchon 5th and Stanton,another Protestant church, Method'ist,

on 4th and Stanton. Then[there were] grocerystores on both sides of CANDELARIA

the street, selling fruits, vegetables,and groceries, Thenthe railroad

usedto comeon TexasStreet, and the streetcar usedto run from El paso

to Juarezin a circle. Thenthe SecondWard Streetcar usedto cometo

SeventhStreet, go around,come to townand back. The JuarezfStreetcar] usedto comefrom North Stantonand passto Juarez.

M: Doyou remembera lot of peop'lefrom Juarezwho used to go throughStanton Street on their wayback? There'salways been a lot of traffic on Stanton Street.

C: 0h, yes, but I wasjust a kid.

M: But do you recall a lot of traffic, peoplegoing by there?

C: 0h, yes, plenty of heavytraffic, sure, with the streetcars. Andat that

time we still hadhorses and buggies, one or two automobiles.There weren,t manycars at that time. This placewhere I live nowwas nothing but mountains.My dad and I usedto go shootrabbits right hereat this

p1ace. ThePolice Firing Rangeused to be on Hawthorneand Schuster,a

big stonewall. I think that's still there, if I,m not mistaken,on Haw- thornestreet over there. Therewas no collegeof Minesthen, nothing;

that cameyears later. No high school, that cameafter the Fjrst Wor'ld

|darwhen that schoolwas built. I think it was [the old Morehead]School on Arizonaand Kansas.

M: Whatdid you do as a kid in your neighborhood? C: P'layedwith the kids. M: Whatkind of gamesdid you p'lay?

Escondidas,hide and go seek; and sometimesIndians and Cowboys__youknow, kids' games. we usedto havea gangof our ou,rl. Amongour memberswas Saul Paredes,Ernesto Herrera and Tito paredes. I don't rememberthem CANDELARIA

other fellas. Weused to fight with stonesagainst each other. At that

time there wereno bui'ldingsaround there. Thecanal hadno fence. Some

of the kids fell off of themonce; that kept meout. I still like to go backto the old days. Therewas no traffic. wel], to myway of thinking, it wasbetter.

M: Doyou remembera lot of those tenementsthat they havein SouthEl Paso? C: Yeah,but I don't rememberthe namesof the owners. Thereused to be a tenementright acrossthe street from us on Southstanton, it still is; and then anotherone farther down. Whenthe UnitedStates had this cambio

de territorio backto ,those houseswere torn down,tenements. And there werea lot of themon seventhoEast, west, they're all torn down. M: Howdid Mexicanpeople live there? Wasit crowded?

C: No, it wasn't crowded. It wascrowded over here towardsthe UnionDepot

on chihuahuaStreet and Durango,and those p'laces. But over there we weren't. Wehad law andorder.

M: Yousay you ran aroundwith a little gang. C: 0h, just kids aroundthe neighborhood,yeah.

M: Wasit moreof a friendly gangrather than someof these gangsthat we have now?

C: 0h, no, it wasn'tlike that. Myfather andtheir parentswouldn't allow us. Myfather had beena police officer. He wasin chargeof everythingthere, and someof the copsthat werearound there. No, nothing of that sort in thosedays. It waslaw andorder with the kids. In thosetimes, kids worked. Nowkids don't ha'/ea damnthing to do but raise hell. youcan

seethat yourself. wedidn't havenone of those[gangs]. For instance,I had to comehome from schooland chopwood, hel p mymother clean the stove, CANDELARIA

get the ashesout and get readyfor supper. I hadto run errands. 0f course,everything was close together. If I played,I'd play after doing 'late my homework.Sonetimes too to go. A kid usedto work in those days. Whatschool did you go to? St. Mary's. Thatwas a CatholicSchool.

That's right, on Myrtle andAnge Street. l,lasit mostly Mexicankids in that school?

No, Americans.They wouldn't even let us speakSpanish. Wewere there to learn English,and English was the languagespoken. Wel'1,among ourselves,

kids wouldget together flandspeak spanish]. Therewas Eddie Swyer, and there wasmy cousins, PabloGarcia, Arturo Maese,another fella namedRudy

(but I don't rememberhis last name,and a Syriannamed Joe (I don't remem- ber his last nameeither). Heused to live on SanFrancisco and Leon

Street. His father usedto havea grocerystore. Thenlater whenthe

Chinesequit the laundry, , whichafterwards it movedto Secondand Utah, wlrichis nowfvlesa. They changed the name. It wasUtah, and then Broadway,then SanJacinto, andnow it's Mesa. As I remember,that wasthe RedLight D'istrict. That's right.

Whatdo you rememberabout that? I didn't go. Did you ever go by there? No throughthe street, tto. Did you knowwhat was there?

0h, yes, I knewwhat was there, throughthe older kids. But at that time, CANDELARIA

no kid wouldgo aroundthat neighborhood.0h, no. Theyhad law and order with the kids then.

M: Mr. Candelaria,what experiences or incidents standout in your mindfrom your grammarschool days, that you rememberthe most?

C: We'|1,in grammarschool, I usedto learn myEnglish; then we hadArithmetic, spel'ling,Handwriting (what we used to call penmanship).we used to go to grammarschool till we got to the sixth. That schoolwas run by Sister Zalbareto,and the pastor wasFather Roy, a Frenchman.I don't remember his first name,his last namewas Roy. Ourfirst Bishopwas Bishop Schuller. I think he took care of the schoolfor a time, too; I'm not sure about that. But he wasour first Bishop.

M: Did they treat the Mexicankids goodthere?

C: Surel Therewere only a few, the onesI named,my sisters andmy cousins. M: Wherewas the school located?

C: At Myrtle andAnge, right on the corner of Myrtle andAnge; and betweenSt. Vrain andAnge, and then on the rear by Magoffin. M: Thatwasn't the Mexicanneighborhood, then? C: No, no.

M: It wasaway from the Mexicanneighborhood. Did you havea long waysto waik? C: FromSeventh over there. I usedto walk to school, then comefor lunch, andwalk back. I usedto take mysisters.

M: wasthat unusual? Mostof the kids in your neighborhoodmust have gone to the public school.

C: 0h, yeah. I wasthe oniy onein that neighborhoodthat wentto that school. Later on, the family Herrerasent one or two of their girls there, and also Avocato,an ltalian. I think he sent oneor two of his daughtersthere CANDELARIA

to school, too. Theyused to walk there with my sisters andmyseif.

M: Wasthe educationyou receivedat the Catho'licschool better than at a public school?

C: Sure it was. That's whereyou'learned how to obeyyour parents. Nowadays

they don't. Yes,sir, wewere brought up straight catholics;and[they taught] obedienceto your parents,allegiance to your country. weused to raise the Americanflag everymorning, raise it up andsalute. Andthen I rememberone time a sergeantat gaveus miiitary training.

t^/ehad an Armyuniform, andwe usedto drill with our rifle. I hada 22 rifle, we all had 22's. so we hadour drill on the schoolgrounds. M: Did you get alongwell with the Anglokids?

C: Sure. 0h, oncein a whiie, for instance,they'd caji you a ,,Mexican.',That's natural.

M: Theycalied you "dirty Mexican.?" C: Ohosomething of that sort.

M: Andyou got into fights with them? C: 0h, sure.

M: Did that happena lot?

C: No. Wehad the best fighters, eventhough they outnumberedus. I learned

my punchesfrom Kid Payo. He passedaway about two, three years ago. He wasSaul Paredes'suncle. Andthen years later I wrestledprofessionally

whenthey started wrestlinghere in El Paso. I did weightiifting, fencing, archery,shooting. NowI go shootingwith myfirearms, pistol zz,1oo " millimeter, 45, rifles, 222, 3006. I shootonce in a while. M: You'requite a sportsman.

C: Just trying to keepfit; I'm not a springchicken anymore, but... CANDELARIA

M: After grammarschool wheredid you continueschool ?

C: I didn't continue. I started working,'cause nry father puiled meout of

the grammarschool, 'causehe wasa sick manwith asthma. So I had to work for a while. Andthen whenhe got better I wentto El PasoHigh and took ManualTraining, Machine Shop practice, andDrafting, 'causea machinist has to learn howto read blueprints to makethings; for instance,make a valve andmake the pistonsomake rings for the motor, turn crankshafts, makegears, pinions. Youhave to knowhow to drawthem; that is, mechanical

drawing. Andthen. they handedyou a print to make[things, andyou have to] knowwhat you're doing. Andthe mathematicsyou knewthere, for a machinistwas very simple--decimals. Howlong wereyou out of school? A little while.

Andyou wereworking at that time? 0h, yeah, I hadto. Whatdid you do?

Well, I usedto workas a de'liveryboy. I hadan unclewho was a butcher,he

got rrrea job at the old city ['!arket,the one that was on SanAntonio, the City Market.

M: Youmust have been about 12 years old? .l3. C: Somethinglike that,

M: l,lasthat unusualto be out of schooland working, or did a lot of other kids do it, too?

C: No, we all hadto. SinceI left schoolI hadto do it. For instance,my cousins, they usedto workafter schooland Saturdaysand half-day Sundays. I started workingat RamonDuran's automobile shop learn'ing automobile

vlork,mechanics. At that time wasthe FordModel T, and then camethe CANDELARIA

Studebaker,Grayhan Page, which later becamethe Chevro'letand things of

that sort. ThenI hada little training aboutCadillacs, big cars, after-

wards. I left all that to be a machinist. I liked it better. M: Tell mea little bit aboutyour father's work.

C: Well, he wasclerk of the CorporationCourt when he wasworking with the Police Department,then at one time he workedin the office of the Fire

Department.See, in pofitics, if you workedfor the wrongfellow, Vou lost your job. So whenTom Lea ran for mayorof El Paso,he voted against' him, becausehe waswith Kel'ly. AndTom Lea was judge of the Corporation 'cause Court. But TomLea didn't last but oneterm fas mayor] he didn't like the Mexicanpeople. Hewouldn't even clean South El Pasoat all. So

everybodylooked to my father as oneof the leadersof SouthEl Paso,and he got a lot of petitions, signatures,and finally they cleanedSouth

StantonStreet and all the SecondWard around there, 'causeit wasa mess. Thenmy father cameback to workwith the city whenCharles Davis was elected mayor,and he workedunder R. E. Thomasonalso, whenhe wasmayor.

Andthen he workedas a deputysheriff under0rndorf, I think it was, and

fanother] fellow. He servedwith two sheriffs, Sid Orndorfand the other one. Hedied with asthma.

M: Werethere manyMexicans working in city governmentlike your father? C: Qft,yeah, there were a few. M: Whatkinds of jobs did they have?

C: Theyhad office work, someof themwere sheriffs, someof themwere policemen, out on the beat on the street. M: Wereany Mexicans in politics?

C: 0h, yeah, sure! Therewas Domingo Montoya, Escajeda, Alderete, there wasa CANDELARIA 10

while family from downthe valley. Therewas my unc'ledown in Ys'leta, Frank.

M: Did they hold office?

C: We1l,I think the Escajedasdid, andthey ran for somekind of c1erk, countyclerks, I think. I'm not very sure if both of themdid or not. Theone whocould give you moreinformation on that is ModestoGomez.

Hewas older and I wasjust a kid whenall that took place. Modesto,he wasnot in politics as a whole,but he liked to mix oncein a while. They even tried to makehim mayor. That,was after he cameback from the Service. He was in the Serviceduring the First WorldWar. M: Wasthere a lot of politics in the Mexicancommunity?

C: 0h' yeah, Therewas The Mutualista, it usedto be on Fift,h and South Stanton,Circulo de funigos,it usedto be on Seventhand SouthStanton.

Thosewere all for one, for the samething, contra el americano. Contrael americano?

Si, cuandono nos.trataban bien. For instance,when they didn't care aboutthem, see?

Whenyou say, "cuandono nos tratabanbienr" whatdo you mean?

I mean,for instance,when Lea was mayor, he didn't want to clean South El Paso.

WasSouth El Pasovery dirty?

No, not very, but whenit rains, SeventhStreet usedto get fu1l of water, iust like a river there, Seventhand Stanton; and also SeventhEast and West,but mostly East. 0n SouthStanton and Seventh,we usedto havewater that deepwhen I wasa kid. t^leused to play there, swimmingin there. (Chuckl es ) CANDELARIA I1

M: Swimmingin the muddywater.

C: Yeah,just like kids play herenow.

M: Andthe city didn't want to do anythingto clean it up?

C: No, not until the peoplethere got togetherand started complaining,

getting their rights, andthen they fixed it up. M: Did TomLea make any negativestatements about the Mexicanpeop'le? C: I don't remember.My father kept a paperwhere Tom Lea made some of those remarksagainst the Mexicangovernment. After he passedaway I tried to find it, but I guesshe gaveit away. M: Well, let's see, thenyou wentto El PasoHigh School C: That's right. I got mydiploma in ManualTraining and Machinist.

M: Whatyear was that, whenyou went there?

C: I don't rememberexact'ly, I wouldsay around'21, '22. I think it was '21 and '22.

M: liere there a iot of Mexicanstudents there?

C: 0h, yeah, many. Dr. de la Torre, the dentista, he wasthere with me in ManualTraining, Machine Shop. M: Is he here now?

C: 0h, sure! He's a dentist here, Abelinode la Torre. He iives here some p'laceon North Stanton. His family still ownsDe ia Tome andSons !^lholesale

and Retail groceries, on SouthStanton. Andthe others I wasgoing to mention,they passedaway, I don't remembertheir last names. Thereare very few of us left.

M: Did you mix with the Anglokids at El PasoHigh? C: Sure, sure I did. M: Did you get along with them? CANDELARIA 12

C: I got along. ldheneverthey tried to pick on a l,lexicanfellow that didn't knowhow to fight (sinceat that time I started wrest'ling),I,d say,

"Leavethat guy alone." "Whatdo you care?" I said, ',Comeon. i,i1 take care of you." I waswrestling professional. A big guylike you was no fight for me. M: No problem,huh? C: Look,I'm 72.

M: You'restill in pretty goodshape. Solid.

C: Yeah. A fellow like you wasno problemfor me. If you'd pick on a guy

andhe didn't knowhow to fight, that's onething I neverdid like, to seea fellow get whippedwhen he didn't knowhow to defendhimself. I'd rr rrcet sd.y,"Leave that fel low alone. "[,Jhy?rr the helI outa here." If he didn't, well, I saidn "Comeon.', Thesame way, if you'd seea girl

on the street, Vou knowhow some guys are. I,d teil them, ,,youleave that

lady alone." "what'sit to you?" "I'll showyou whatit is to me." I'd tell her, "Youjust keepon going, I'.l1 take care of it.,' That's the way I've beenall mylife; sameway in the shops. M: Wheredid you get that fighting spirit?

C: It's iust born. Myfather wasa goodslugger, too. I sawhim get someof the guys. Sincehe wasan officer and someof the fellas started getting in street fights, he just started arresting them. Andif someof them jumpedon him, why... Besides,I learnedmy punchesfrom payo. Andthen I took up wrestlingwhen I sawny first wrestlingmatch at Liberty Hall. That was Jordanand I don't rememberwho else. But I took my lessonsin wrestiing from Marty . I wrestledfor a few years, then mydad made me stop, he says, "That'senough." 'causeI wasgoing CANDELARIA 13

too fast. He says, "Thatwon't do you no good. Youbetter stick to [being a] machinist." So I did. M: Mr. Candelaria,in thosedays did manyMexican kids go to college? C: Col'lege?Yeah. Thecollege wasthen the TexasSchool of Mines. Mycousins

graduatedfrom there, Arturo Maeseand BobMaese, and I forget the rest of them. I knewa lot of them,because they wereolder than I, like my oldest cousin. Therewere several Mexican boys there; plenty. At that time I believe there weremore Mexican students than Americans,I think. 0f course,there werelots of Americans,too. M: Whatdo you rememberabout the Revolution?

C: 0h, the Revolution,, yeah! Theone that can give you good

stories is mywife; she wentthrough hel1 over there in Durango,where

she grewup. I remember,oh, I wasjust a kid, I usedto read in the

paperabout it. I rememberwhen Vil'la or Madero,when they first took Juarez,the AmericanArmy was all over the river. That wasthe Texas

National Guardfrom the east. WhereBowie School was then, it usedto be called CampCotton; that's wherethe Armywas stationed. Those fellows wereguarding the border, al'l along here in El Pasoto the Smelter.

Hereby the Smelter,you knowthe railroad tracks at the top? Well, they hadmachine guns there on the trains. lty dad usedto take us to see the soldiers there, patrolling the river. It wasan Armytown; we had Fort Bliss, too. At that time it wasthe cava'lryand field artillery. M: Whate'lse do you rememberseeing?

C: Well, just the Army. Andthen during Prohibitiontime, I usedto see smugglersrunning in their cars, either in automobilesor whateverthey could, andI sawsome shooting between the smugglersand the officers. CANDELARIA 14

I sawsome smugglers get killed in the street, or an officer get wounded

or an officer get killed.

M: Youactuajly sawpeople get shot on the street?

C: Sure, sure! Andmy mother used to say, "Comein, comein! Donrtget hurt!" Getting us out of the way! Yeah,they usedto go in daytimeand nighttime. In Prohibition time, whenthe UnitedStates was dry, everybodywas smuggling goodsfrom acrossthe river. By that time, you werein your 20s? .l9. I wasaround 18 or

Prohibitionstarted here in El Pasoin 19.|8and it endedin 1933. I was18 or 19, somethinglike that, whenI sawthat.

Did you go over to Juarezyourself, to go to a bar downthere, drink a beer? No, I didn't do that. Myfather hada saloonbefore Prohibition, and I

wasraised on wine and beer. lvlyfather usedto give us wine all the time. l,'lhenyou'd get up in the morning,you hada little glass of wine. Andat

noonwe'd comehome for lunch from school, and I hada glass of beer or two, and go backto school. Oneday whenI wasin grammarschool at St.

Mary'S,the nun smelledmy breath, and she says, "Where'veyou been?" I says, "Home.""What have you beendrinking?" I says, "Beer." Shesays, "Where?"I said, "Home."She wouldn't believe me. Shesays, "Yougo homeand give this note to your dad." "0kay." I got homemy father was working. Hewas then with the Police Department.My mother said, "What's that?" "TheSister gaveme that." "Fine." It wasin an envelope,I didn't knowwhat it said, So she handedit to mydad. Mydad starts

laughing,he says, "Tomorrowwe'll go to school." So wewent to school andhe explainedto the nunthat I drankbeer all the time, and I still do. CANDELARIA 15

M: That wasthe custom. C: Sure.

M: So it wasno big deal for you to go to Juarez. C: No, I didn't care for drink.ing.

M: Couldyou still do it duringProhibition? Howdid your father get the beer? C: No, no, he quit. Theyhad no beerduring prohibition. M: Youquit drinking? C: Yeah.

M: Didn't you go to Juarezsometimes?

C: Myfather usedto take us, becauseMr. Luis Webberhad a bar and a poolhouse on F'ifth andSouth Stanton called La Mutualista. Sowhen Prohibition

came,he movedto Juarez. So he invited us to go Sundaysthere with his family andeat there at his restaurantand drink beer. But for myself, for 1iquor, ho.

M: Youweren't hooked on it.

C: No, I don't care for it. I neversmoked; drinking, just rike I said, just with mymeals.

M: Did you visit Juarez,and look at all the placesthat they hadover there, duringProhibition?

C: Wel1,I visited Juarez,but not duringprohibition.

M: Youdidn't go over there too often?

C: With my parents. I hadcousins there at that time that I usedto go see, oncein a great while. Theyare novvhere in the states. someof them passedaway. Oneof themhas a gas station here on Texasand willow Street, a Texaco. I usedto go see his mother,but he wasborn afterwards. He's only 50 yearsold now. .I6 CANDELARIA

M: I've heardand Inve readthat during Prohibition,there wasa big problem

with the bridge. Somepeop'le wanted to close the bridge early and there wereconstant fights here.

C: Theydid havethat, I rememberthat. First they usedto keepit openti11

midnight,l2:00, andthen they closedit at 9:00. I rememberthat, J/€s. ttr. lI. Anda lot of peoplegot caughtover there, and hadto spendthe night in Juarez.

C: Yes, they hadto spendthe night at Juarez. I rememberthat, you're right. M: That neverhappened to you?

C: No, no! I didn't haveno businessover there. Myfather usedto keep us here.

M: Yourfather wasstrict with you. Did you start workingafter you graduated from El PasoHigh School?

C: Yeah. I started workinq t El PasoFoundry. I workedthere oneyear tili

[it went] broke, and then I wentto SouthernPacific, whereI finished my apprenticeship,and worked there 12 years, six months. Andthen from there I quit onaccountofmy health. I waswith the graveyardshift. I usedto go in at 5 o'clock andwork till midnight,sometimes stay ai'l night ti11 the next shift camein to finish the work. That ran medown, so I quit. Then I went to work for J.E. Morganand Sons,when they Fort Bliss. He gaveme the job as lumberyardforeman, checking up the lumbergoing in and comingout. Thenwhen the war brokeout, I wentto work for the 0rdinanceas a machinist. ThenI went to work for Fort Bliss. WhenI was

at the 0rdinanceat Fort Bliss they sent meto Fort , Oklahoma, had me [going] backand forth. Andthen for somereason i gavethat job up andwent to BiggsField. I workedas a machinistalso, I wasforeman there. CANDELARIA

Fromthere I went to the Smelter,and worked as a machinistwith AS and R until I retired. I worked23 years at the Smelter, 23 years at the Smelter. Whendid you retire?

0h, sevenyears ago. I wasan all-aroundmachinist. To be a machinistin El Paso,you hadto work in any machinethey give you, not oniy onemachine.

That's whythey'd beenhaving trouble. At that time there usedto be some machinistsfrom the East whosaid they weremachinists. Thekind of machiniststhey werewere one-machine men, and that machinehad to be

adjustedby somebodyelse. Wedidn't havethat machinehere. Theyused to

give you b'lueprintsto make[something]. You had to cut a,gear, use the middlemachine; you got a board)use the lace; you wantto 1ay it out, go

to the table there and la.yout younwork. That,s wherethe mechanical drawingcomes in.

M: Did you ever haveany problemsgetting a job here in El paso?

C: No. Well, I did sometimes,yesi whenthere wereno vacancies,things of that sort.

In the jobs that you had, wereyou ever paid less than Angloworkers? No, all the same.

Did you knowMexicans who were paid less than Angloworkers? No.

Everybodygot paid the same. Weall got paid the same.

Did you knowof any discriminationagainst lvlexicansin employment?

0h, yes, but not from the big boss; it wasamong the workers. someof thoseMexican guys were darn goodmachinists, better than the yankees

there, damngood. Especially, I learneda lot from a German.We used to CANDELARIA 18

call him Fritz. That guy wastops" I wasone of his favorites whenI

set up ny apprenticeship. He wasa sick man,so I usedto help him with

everythingI couid. That's whyhe took an interest in me. Therewas a little discrimination, but not from the big company,just from the workers

themselves.They were jealous of fthe Mexicanworkers] because they knew better. we hada Mexicanfellow that wasin villa's army,his namewas sandoval. That fellow wouldwork on the lace and on the floor. By ,,on

the floor" I meanwhere they take the'locomotiveapart. This happenedat SouthernPacific. [When]the wheelsof the locomotivesare baianced,they

put themon the bench,and they swing. Thoseguys would put a gaugelon'it] to gaugefthe weight]. This fellow didn't. Hejust pickedthem up,

started sw'inging[them], and wou'ld say, "Take10 poundsoff,,'or "Add20", or whateverwas needed, and everything was perfect. He usedto havea paddingshop here on A'lamedaand copia. That guy wastops in mechanics,

as well as machineshop [and] repairing. Younever were awareof caseswhere Mexicans were deniedemployment, because they were Mexicans?

No. If you wasa machinist,you got a job. hlhatabout in other jobs?

Well, I neverdid try others, I don't knowabout others. I onlyworkedin the shopsall mylife. A1'lmy life I've beena machinist. M: Did you ever hear of discriminationtoward Mexicans? C: 0h, yes, I heard;yes. M: In housing?

C: No, not at that time, no. Housing,hoy en dia. Everybodyused to live in SouthEl Pasoand East E'l Paso,the Mexicanpeopie; no problem. CANDELARIA 19

M: Wasthere a dividing line betweenthe Mexicanand the Anglocommunities?

C: l,rlell,cou]d havebeen, but I neverdid pay any attention to it, because

there weresome Mexicans on this side of the trackso too. That's what

we usedto call it at that time, "the tracks." M: Werethe tracks the dividing line, moreor less?

C: Yeah,but I knewa lot of Mexicansvuiro used to live on this side, too. For instance,during the Revolutionin Mexico, was built

by the Mexicanpeople that camefrom Mexico. They'rethe onesthat built SunsetHeights, they're the onesthat built the Holy FamilyChurch and the school, the peoplethat lived there. For instance, the family Sama-

niegowho were doctors, and others, they're the onesthat buiit Sunset Heights. Theywas people that hadmoney from Mexico, and came to live here. Someof themwent back, others died here. .|916, M: Therewas an incident herein whenPancho Villa's troops killed some engineersin SantaIsabel. C: I heardabout it.

M: Someof themwere from El Paso,and their bodieswere sent over here; and

peoplehere in El Pasowere very upset. I've read in the newspapersof

thosedays that a mobof a thousandAnglos wanted to clean out the Mexican colonyand sendthe Mexicansback across the river. C: No.

M: Youdon't rememberany of that?

C: Nothinghappened of that sort here. Howcould they do that? Wewere all Americancitizens born and raised here. Therewere very few lrhxicans that cameduring the Revolutionthat cameto live here. For instance, the ones I said before that bui'lt SunsetHeights, scatteredhere and there. CANDELARIA 20

Thosethat hadmoney had the best homeshere, evenon this side of the

tracks. Thosethat didn't [havemoney] lived whereI usedto live, on SouthEl Paso,South Stanton, Kansas, Ochoa, Virginia Street, towards

the East and towardsthe West. SouthEl PasoStreet at that time wasa very busystreet in business. Theyhad grocerystores, meatmarkets, moving pictures, one-picturehouses and vaudvilles. For instance,the moving pictures wereEl Hidalgo, at SouthEl Pasoand Fourth; farther downwas the Eden,then farther downthe Eurekaand then the Rex, the Alcazar; and then the Alhambrawas built by a Mexicanfrom chihuahua. you had very beautiful vaudvilles. Beforeyou got to that wasthe GrecianTheatre,

and then acrossthe street wasthe Lyric, vaudville; and then next one wasthe Bijou and then wasthe Unique,and then the Wigwam. M: Therewere p'lenty.

C: For 5 centsus kids wouldgo in andthen whenI got a little older it wasl0 cents. Theyused to havestreetcars all over EJ Paso,no buses

then. Youtook the streetcar to go here and go there. 0r if you hada horseand buggy,you got in your horseand buggy; or if you liked to ride

a horse, [you rode a horse]. If you hada Ford, that wasthe maincar at that time, the T ModelFord. Andthen later of course, the people that hadmoney had big cars--the Page,Studebaker, Cadillacs, big cars.

Whenyou werea youngman, what did you do on a Saturdaynight to havea goodtime?

well, mysisters liked to go dancing,I'd take mysisters. 0r myfather wouldmake us a danceat the houseand invite our friends. Theywouldn,t let us go around. Weweren't that kind. Real strict, huh? CANDELARIA 21

C: For instance,my sister usedto belongto a club of youngladies, I can

mentionsome of thosegirls whoare nowPh.D.s, school teachers: Virginia

Gomez(who is nowMrs. Bafios),her sister Delfina, her other sister Maria,

and then anothersister that passedaway, Blanca Gomez de Hill; they came from Mexico,that family. They,reall schoolteachers here; tops, too. Andthen other, I don,t remembertheir names. Thosegirls werefriends of ours' andmy father usedto makea party at homeor they organizeda club andthey rentedthe SheldonHotel, hada nice big dancinghall. M: Theyhad parties there?

C: Yeah. Runningaround? Not for us. 0thers, Jes. I rememberthe Bluebird, jt usedto be on Texasand Stantonat the corner, that waspublic; I never

did go there. No, mydad was too strict, he knewevery damnp'lace. If I

did something,he knewit. [With him] workingfor the PoliceDepartment, all the copsknew me. (Chuckles)

M: Youhad to be pretty straight, huh? C: I hadto!

M: Whatabout the Depression,Mr. Candelaria?What do you rememberabout that?

C: 0h, I wasmarried then. It waspretty rough,Jou bet you it was. My wife wasworking as a nurse,and the reasonI couldnlt get a job was ,cause only one in a famiiy wasallowed to work. I wasworking for the railroad at that time, see, andwe werelaid off. 0f course,when the Depression camewe usedto work two or three days a week,and gradua'l'lythey kept cutting the daysuntil finally they c'losedup. Andmy wife started working as a nurse in the old ProvidenceHospital. It usedto be on Upsonand santa Fe, right on the corner. M: Howlong wereyou out of work? CANDELARIA 22

C: Well, quite a while; I don't rememberexactly.

M: Whatdid you do whenyou didn't havework?

C: Well, I took care of the kids while [ny wife] workedlshe wasworking nights. 0r if I could, [I'd] land a job helpinga fellow fix a car, or whateverhe hadto do. For instance,if a waterline brokeoI'd help him out. He

didn't havea job either, [so] we helpedeach other. If they'd give you 50 cents, it wasa hell of a lot of moneythen. That wasthe Depression. Nowthey havehandouts. That's the worst thing they havedone, instead

of putting a fellow to work. Peopledon't wantto worknow. In those days, that wasthe time they built the ScenicDrive. It wasvery narrow,

iust for a horse. Nowthey widenedand fixed it from oneend to the other. M: I understandthat a lot of peoplewent to Juarezduring thoseyears because food wascheaper there.

C: 0h, yeah. I wasone of them. For a dollar, I usedto get a lot of food, for one buck.

M: Whatthings did you buy over there?

C: 0h, whateveryou needed: tortillas, lllgso, huevos,lechugas, tomatoes, chile, whateveryou'd eat. Sometimesmeat.

M: Did they ever give you problemson the bridge, bringing it back? C: No.

M: I understandthat someof the merchantsover here didn't like that. 0h, of coursethey didn't'like it! Theywere too damnhigh for us! So if you needsomething and you havea family, what the he'll you going to do? you

look to feed themsome way. Betweenwhatever pay she was getting, two or three dollars, andwhatever I made,if I foundsomething to do, we got

groceriesin Juarez,sure! Sure,Jou hadto, vou couldn't afford to CANDELARIA ?3

buy it here. It wasa 1ot cheaperin Juarez, M: Wheredid you live during thoseyears?

C: I wasliving on 625Upson during the Depression.The house still stands, a two-storybuilding.

M: Whendid you go back to work?

C: whenthe Depressionwas over, I wentback to the rairroad. M: Doyou knowabout when? In the late ,30s?

C: somethinglike that; yeah,the late'30s, becausefthe Depression]started herein the early'30s, late'20s. I wentback to the railroad.

M: Thenworld l,'larII camealong. Did that haveany effect on your family? C: I wasl-A whenI wasworking for the rai'lroad. M: Whendid you go into the Service?

C: I didn't go into the regularService, I volunteeredinto the NationalGuard before the war came.

M: In betweenthe First WorldWar and the SecondWorld War?

C: That's right. Therewas saul Paredesand I, Madrid,Delgado. De'lgado's

stil'l here, but I don't knowhis adress. Madridis not hereanymore. Roberto Delgadowas Platoon sergeant, and I wassupp'ly sergeant. saul paredes

wasFirst Sergeant. captainHughes is nowdead. I forget the namesof the other fellows. I ioined the NationalGuard to learn military training, 'cause I alwaysliked it. Andthen whenthe war camein, we wereold, becausewe wereover 35, andwe weremarried and had small children. So thosewere out, and I wasone of them.

M: Did El Pasochange a'lot as a result of Wor1dWar II? C: 0h, yeah.

M: A lot of soldiers here? CANDELARIA 24

'em. c: Oooh,yeah, crowded! plenty of Just like in the Finst worldwar,

we did too, we hada lot of soldiers [then]. ModestoGomez was in the Service. Hewas in 350thAmmunition Training, he wasa sergeant. Cleofas Calleroswas with that. He nowpassed away. M: I interviewedhim, too.

C: CleofasCalleros, I knewhim. Andhis brother, Ismael,and I werein the National Guardtogether. ThenI met his brother whenI joined the Knights of Columbus.

M: Howdid you like workingfor ASARCO,the Smelter? C: Notrouble.

M: A lot of Mexicansworking there?

C: 0h, yesl 99%. [Maybe]not that much,but there weremore Mexicans there

ftfranAmericans]. Theon'ly Americans there [werethe foremen]. Nowthey haveMexican foremen, but at first they didn,t. M: Theydidn't haveMexican foremen? C: No. M: Whynot?

C: well, they didn't qualify. Theytried to makeme a foreman,but I turned i t down. M: I^lhv?

C: I didn't'like it. Youhad to go dayand night; hell, no! whensomething goeswrong' they call the foreman,then the foremancalls the machinist. I says' "0h, no. I'll stay as a machinist." Theydidn't call mebut oneor twice, otherwiseI'd haveto go [moreoften]. Andbesides, I'd haveto stay to finish a iob overtime. 0h, ro. But nowthey haveMexican foremen.

I'.l1 tell you whathappened once. After the secondworld war, they couidn't CANDELARIA 25

get no machinists,because these machinists that usedto comeand work at the Smelter,like I said, before, they wereone-machine men- you'd put

themon somethingelse andthey didn't knownothing about it. Thesuper-

intendent(t don't rememberhis name,he passedaway), him and I usedto get along fine. So oneday he says, "Rudy,what amI going to do? I

needa machinistand I can't find him." I says, "That's simp'le." He rrhlell, says' "what?rr theseMexican boys that've servedtheir country,

they're entitled to havebetter jobs. Let's get going." "who'sgoing to train them?" "I do. Youjust tell the foremanto leaveme alone. If he

wantsthe job done,I'l'l do it; [but doeshe] wantthe job first or do you wantme to teach those boys?" "Goahead." Beforethat time, ASARCO

hada schoolfor machineshop, as apprentice,but that time they didn't haveit. So I beganto teach them. Someof themare still there, some

of themare nowforemans. I go there and they call me, "Maestro." you go there andask themfor Rudycandelaria, they'lr sdy, "El Maestro." Theydon't call meRudy Candelaria. M: Youtrained a lot of them.

C: Yeah,I'd teachthem how to run their machines,sharpen their tools. Some of themare still there, someare foremans. I brokethem in. Wereyou happyat ASARCOall those years? Sure!

I'm curious aboutthe wagesthat they paid there in comparisonto what they wouldpay you if you wereworking someplace else, in other parts of the UnitedStates.

well, let metell you, the nation is divided. Someplaces in the East pay morethan in the south, East, or west. But here whenI went to the CANDELARIA 26

smelter" I think we vueregetting a do1lar an hour whenI started, see.

wel1, we didn't have goodworking conditions, we had woodf'loors. I had

quit the sP, that wasafter the First world war, and so I cameover to ASARCO,and sawthe conditions there. And someof the boys wantedto get, transfered, but they wouldn't do it becausethey werelvlexican. So one day I got together someof the best headsin the machineshop and the

boiler shop,and I told them,"Let's organizea union." "0h, no! We,ll get fired!" I said, "Like hell wewijl. t,.le'regoing to organizea union." So I got with someof the boysthere, andafter workwe started talking. Gradual]y,we usedto havemeetings across the street from the Smeilter.

Westarted talking, andwe got a union. Wehad our first strike. Working conditionsbegan to change,they gaveus a raise. Therewas discrimination,

yes, but that beganto stop. Thenwe hadanother big strike, and then another,and then another. Nowyou go there and see. Someof the old timers are still here. NachoAguirre lives someplacearound here, I don't know his address. JuanMarquez, he's out of townnow. M: Whendid you organizethis union?

C: It wasn'tme only, it wasseveral of us. I just broughtthe idea to one of themand then we all started workingtogether. Let's see, I don't remember the year, no meacuerdo. M: In the '40s? C: Yes.

M: After the war. Yousay there wasdiscrimination. Whatkind of discrimination? C: For instance,one day the foremansaid, ',Hay,you!,' I didn't payno attention, I didn't knowwho in the hell he wastalking to. Hecame to me ,Hey, andsays, "Hey,you." I said, "Listen,my name ain't Vou,'my name CANDELARIA 27

is Candelaria. Understand?If you needme you call meCandelaria, not,

'Huy, you."' So that wasthe end of him. Andsome other guys, they tried

to do the sameway, and I told them, "Uh, uh. That's not myname." And I told the other fellow, "Nose dejen." Andthey started doingthat and we started getting the union. Andno more,"Hey, you,'r [no more]yelling.

I says, "Toma,the sameto you!" (Laughter) So that was it. M: Did you haveany trouble organizingthe union? C: No. M: Did managementgive you trouble? C: Howcould they if we didn't haveour meetingson their grounds?Everything

wasafter workinghours. l^ledidn't start raising heI1 [until] we got organized. Theytried to scareme. My foremancame and told me, "You're

going to get fired." I says, "Goahead. Giveme my time. For what reason are you going to fire me?"

Did anybodyget fired?

No, hell, no! Theycouldn't! Howcould they? To get fired you hadto

spoil the job, or if the foremantoid you [to do something]and you didn't do it. But one day the foremangave me a job and at the sametime [he gave] the samejob to his son. tttyjob cameperfect, I put it to work. His job

didn't fit. So then they cameback and threw it there and told [the foreman]

that the iob wasno good,but they didn't say whose[it was]. So he came over to meand he says, "Youtrefired." I says, "Why?rrrrThe job aintt wortha damn." I says, "Proveit." Thenhis son heardand saysn "Dad this is his job. That's mine." Hejust put his headdown and walked off. Wefired someof those foremansafter we got organized. Wedidn't fire the machineshop foreman, though. CANDELARIA 28

M: The Anglo foremen?

C: Sure! Eranpuros americanos. Ahora si hqtrmexicanos. M: Doyou think in thosedays they purposelyhad Anglo foremen and purposely didn't haveMexican foremen?

C: Thht's right. Theyjust didn't care for you, they just thoughtyou couldn't do it. No, everythinghas changed. But onceyou got organized,they couldn't do a damnthing andthey couldn't fire you. Theyhad to havea

reason. If you fired a worker,Jou hadto go to the union, and go to your superintendent[and tel1 them]why you fired him. That's howwe fired someforemans, and called themboys that wasfired back. Andthe foreman, ,'Hey, out. 0ncewe got organized,there wasno more, Jou," no more. They called you by your name. l'lynickname was Rudy, for Rodolfo.

M: Doyou think the Mexicancommunity has improveda great deal over the years?

C: Sure! A lot. Wegot machinists,we got electricians, we got pipefitters,

we havepainters, we havecarpenters; everything. At first the big jobs

wasfor the Anglos. Nowyou go to the Smelterand you find, 1et's see, I think there are only two Americans.One of themis a scab, he wasa scab 'last in the strike we had. M: Is it all unionnow?

C: Sure! CIO. Congressof Industrial 0rganizations.

M: Youwere saying that the UnitedStates is divided into zones? C: That is, in pay. In California they get moresalary than we do. In other

states too. Thesalary here at the Smelter,I don't knowexact'ly how much it is now,but still in other states it's higherthan here. Doyou think this is the lowest of anywherein the UnitedStates? CANDELAR]A 29

C: hlell, I don't know;it couldbe, it couldnot. But that time, wewere the lowest until we got organized;from onedol'lar to two, three dollars.

WhenI wasretired, I wasgetting $f.00 an hour. Nowthey're getting,

I think, six, sevendollars an hour, with the cost of living. But other states get morethan El Pasodoes. I understandthat East Texaspays more than here. Nowthe railroads here are gone. Weused to havethe SP, the Santa Fe, Texasand Pacific; no more. All we havenow is the cementplant,

the ASARC0,and Phelpsdodge. Ya no bgJ.ferrocamiles. M: Is there anythinge'lse that you'd like to talk about? I seemto have exhaustedqy questions.

C: ldell, that's aboutall I remember.

M: This is the end of the interview with Mr. Candelaria. 0n the reverseside is an interviewwith Mrs. Candelaria.