Thursday Volume 530 23 June 2011 No. 176

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 23 June 2011

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Mr Hammond: As I said, my right hon. Friend the House of Commons Chancellor has conducted a consultation on the future of APD and he has made it clear that any changes to Thursday 23 June 2011 the system would have to be broadly revenue-neutral. I do not know whether my hon. Friend submitted his The House met at half-past Ten o’clock suggestion during the course of the consultation, but if not, I am sure that the Chancellor would be prepared to PRAYERS take it as a late entry.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Does not the Secretary of State agree that the competitiveness of Belfast airports is gravely impinged by the fact that Oral Answers to Questions APD is levied at £120 for a return on business-class long-haul flights from Belfast, while 90 miles down the road in Dublin, it is ¤3 going down to zero. Clearly, as TRANSPORT far as Northern Ireland is concerned, there is a strong case for looking at the issue of APD. The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Hammond: Once again, I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman will have submitted his views to the Airports Chancellor in the consultation to which I just referred. 1. Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): What recent representations he has received on the Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): Britain’s competitiveness of UK airports. [61505] business community finds it incredible that the Government have no intention to bring forward a proper strategy for The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip aviation and UK airports for the next two years. Opposition Hammond): I regularly receive representations from the Members believe that any expansion in aviation must be aviation industry and other stakeholders on a range of sustainable, but is it not a nonsense for the Government issues relating to UK airports. to rule out any expansion in the south-east, regardless of whether or not it can be demonstrated to be sustainable. Mike Freer: I thank the Secretary of State for that Is not the chief executive of London First right when answer. He may be aware that some have suggested a she warns that this failure is congestion levy on south-east airports to fund a discount on air passenger duty in regional airports. What assessment “damaging our economy and enhancing that of our EU rivals”? has he made of the competitiveness of south-east airports in view of this ludicrous suggestion? Mr Hammond: The hon. Lady is right that we have a big challenge in relation to aviation growth in the south-east. Mr Hammond: I think my hon. Friend’s question What I did not hear her do was repeat Labour’s policy betrays the fact that he has already made his own to build a third runway at Heathrow airport. Perhaps at assessment. I believe that this suggestion was made in a some stage she could tell the House whether that remains response by regional airports to a consultation on APD Labour’s policy. The coalition Government cancelled conducted by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. No the third runway at Heathrow because of the unacceptable doubt the Chancellor will respond to those suggestions environmental burden that it imposed, but we are committed in due course. to developing a new and sustainable aviation strategy that will allow the growth of aviation in the UK—but Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I only when it meets its environmental obligations. think it is an excellent suggestion. There is huge capacity in the regional airports and since there has been complete freedom to fly anywhere in Europe, it has been difficult Motorway Speed Limits for Governments to use that capacity. Does the Secretary of State have any ideas how that extra capacity in 2. Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): What regional airports can be used to the benefit of the UK recent representations he has received on varying economy? national motorway speed limits. [61506] Mr Hammond: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport right: there is significant capacity in our regional airport (Mike Penning): My ministerial colleagues and I have runways. We have to recognise that the demand for received a variety of representations, including via the aviation growth in the UK is not just an aggregate red tape challenge to the highways regulations, on the demand—it has a certain geographical distribution—but subject of varying the motorway speed limit. The issue I am keen that the regional airports play a role in raises interesting aspects of our current behaviour, and meeting that demand. I believe that the high-speed rail we will continue to look at it. project will help them to do so. Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): As Stephen Mosley: The maximum motorway speed limit part of the review, will the Secretary of State discuss in several European countries, including France, Italy with the Treasury the viability of having an APD holiday and Germany, is currently greater than 80 mph. In for new long-haul routes from regional airports to order to help deliver the economic benefit of reduced improve their competitiveness with south-east airports journey time, will my hon. Friend consider increasing and airports on the continent? the motorway speed limit to 80 mph? 455 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 456

Mike Penning: The existing limit has been in place cause congestion and adversely affect business. We are since the ’60s. We will weigh up safety and environmental keen to take steps to improve matters, including by aspects against enforcement—although we all know developing regulations to allow targeted lane rental that 70 mph is not being enforced—and how increasing schemes, cutting red tape from the private scheme approval the speed limit to 80 mph would help the country to process, and considering utility works overrun charges. grow in infrastructure. We will look at the balance in those areas. Swindon to Kemble Railway 4. Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): When he expects Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): In the Swindon to Kemble railway redoubling project to assessing the impact on safety of increasing motorway commence. [61508] speed limits, does the Minister agree that another potential consequence will be our ability to meet our carbon The Minister of State, Department for Transport dioxide emission targets? Has he received any (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Network Rail has commenced representations from his right hon. Friend the Secretary design work, and I expect implementation to start in of State for Energy and Climate Change who, as we 2012-13, with completion by 2014-15 ahead of electrification know, is something of an expert on these matters? works on the Great Western main line in 2016-17. Mike Penning: I have great respect for the hon. Neil Carmichael: Does the Minister agree that this is Gentleman, who had my job before me, but he should an example of intelligent investment to promote economic have listened to the answer I gave a few moments ago growth? It will be great news for Gloucestershire, and before reading out his prepared question. We will balance stands in complete contrast to the failure of the last the environmental aspects against the safety aspects, Labour Government to provide any support of this and also take into account the legislative process and kind to the railway system. whether or not we can get Britain moving better. Mrs Villiers: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): May I press question. He and many of his colleagues in the House the Minister a little further? What analysis has he done have fought a hard campaign for redoubling, and I am delighted that the coalition can deliver that. In addition, of the extra fuel usage and CO2 emissions that would result from increasing the speed limit from 70 to 80? the introduction of intercity express programme trains should lead to reductions in journey times and to frequent Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman should also have services, which will benefit the economy in his constituency listened to what I said. I did not say that we had and surrounding areas. conducted the consultation; I said we would balance Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): My various aspects during the consultation, and I am sure right hon. Friend will know that local businesses, local he would like to take part in that consultation and in MPs—including me—and the local authority in Swindon our discussion about what is the right balance. would like to see the development of a branch station on the Kemble line at Sparcells. What advice and Urban Traffic encouragement can she give to me and to local agencies on the development of that station? 3. Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab): What steps he is taking to improve the flow of traffic in urban areas. Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend has also fought a hard [61507] campaign to improve rail services in his area. My advice in respect of that project would be to continue to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport engage closely with the local authority, which has the (Norman Baker): We are providing local authorities leading role in taking forward and funding such projects, with the right tools and the freedom to use them effectively. and to engage closely with Network Rail and the train Our £560 million local sustainable transport fund will operator to see what might be logistically feasible to contribute to local schemes that support growth and consider in the future. reduce carbon. Humber Bridge Mr Spellar: Last week, in answer to a written question 5. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): What progress has that I tabled on street works, the Minister stated that an been made on the review of toll charges on the Humber independent report had found that legislation was “fit bridge. [61509] for purpose” but local authority practice needed to improve. He can certainly say that again! He only has to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport step outside this building to see the chaos caused by (Norman Baker): The second phase of the Humber nearby street works that continue for week after week bridge review was launched on 14 June, and we are now with no work actually being done, and that pattern is in the process of meeting stakeholders to gather views repeated across London and the rest of urban Britain. and ideas. As part of that process, the Economic Secretary What is he going to do to create a sense of urgency to the Treasury and I intend to meet interested Members, about freeing up the roads—and, as a start, will he get including the hon. Gentleman. Boris to focus on his day job and start sorting out London’s roads? Nic Dakin: I thank the Minister for his reply. Humber bridge tolls are essentially a tax on local people and Norman Baker: All of us have considerable sympathy local businesses. Is it right that at this time, with this for those who encounter street works, which are a review still going on, there should be an 11% hike in nuisance to motorists and pedestrians alike, and which those taxes? 457 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 458

Norman Baker: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Mr Hammond: Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes concern, of course, but the fact of the matter is that the the point very clearly. I believe that it is not possible for Humber Bridge Board applied for an increase. I decided Britain to maintain its prosperity in the 21st century in unilaterally to have a public inquiry, where people’s an increasingly competitive global economy unless we representations could be heard. The inspector came can close the growth gap between north and south. back with a clear recommendation in support of the Governments for the past 50 or 60 years have wrestled board application for an increase, and there is no reason with this challenge and we have not succeeded yet. This for Ministers to take a contrary view. What I would say, approach of investing in strategic infrastructure is the however, is that there has been no increase in the toll last best chance to achieve that. since 2006. Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Does Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): Notwithstanding the Secretary of State share my view that developing the the decision of the Humber Bridge Board this week to eastern leg of the “Y”, which will link the great core implement the recommended increase from 1 October—just cities of Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds, has a very six or seven weeks before we anticipate the review being strong business case and should be prioritised? completed—does the Minister agree that, irrespective of the outcome regarding the tolls, the governance of Mr Hammond: I agree that it has a very strong the bridge clearly needs revising so that residents and business case and it will be part of the “Y” network, but the local community have a clear spokesman? At the the logic of building this project is that we have to do moment, councillors are almost forbidden from taking the complex engineering challenge of getting out of part. London through tunnels—the difficult bit of the project— first. In engineering terms, once we are out of the Mr Speaker: Order. We are immensely obliged to the tunnels, it is pretty much plain sailing to complete the hon. Gentleman. remainder of the construction.

Norman Baker: I sympathise with the point that my Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): Will the Minister hon. Friend is making. The governors’ arrangements please give thought to the people of the west country for the bridge are part of the review that we are undertaking. who have some of the slowest rail links with London We inherited an unsustainable position from the previous and some of the most expensive fares? Rather than Government in relation to the bridge. The Economic extra, speedy lines north, we would like some speedy Secretary to the Treasury and I are very concerned and efficient lines south-west. about this and we are determined to make progress if we can on this matter and others. Mr Hammond: I am delighted to be able to tell my hon. Friend that electrification of the Great Western Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): In main line and the introduction of the IEP rolling stock the general election, the Liberal Democrats ran a “Ditch will improve services in terms of speed, reliability, comfort the Humber Bridge Debt” campaign. In light of the and capacity on services between London and the west Minister’s decision to endorse the 11% increase, should country. he not think again? Is this not another example of the Lib Dems’ promises in the manifesto being broken now Crossrail they are in government?

Norman Baker: I think that what the hon. Lady 7. Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) wanted to say was that we have decided, since the (Lab): What steps his Department is taking to ensure election, to offer a reduced interest rate on the Humber that the Crossrail programme provides adequate toilet Bridge Board’s debt, which will save the board £48 facilities at stations and on its rolling stock. [61512] million in interest payments over the next five years. The Minister of State, Department for Transport High Speed 2 (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Provision of adequate and accessible facilities is an important consideration for many passengers. 6. Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) The majority of Crossrail stations will have toilet facilities. (Con): What progress his Department has made on its Since this will be a high frequency metro service, with most passengers travelling relatively short distances, we consultation on High Speed 2. [61510] have no current plans to provide toilets on Crossrail The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip trains. Hammond): I launched the national consultation on high speed rail on 28 February. It will close at midnight Emily Thornberry: Crossrail is currently building a on 29 July and decisions will follow by December. The huge new station at Farringdon, which we welcome. Government consider that a high-speed rail network However, will the Minister join me in urging Crossrail between London and Birmingham and onward to to build some toilets at Farringdon station? As Councillor Manchester and Leeds would drive economic growth Charalambous so eloquently put it: and prosperity as well as providing vital new capacity “They are causing years of inconvenience to local residents on the west coast corridor. and businesses—this is the least they can do. At the end of the day,” Mrs Grant: Does the Secretary of State also agree men that HS2 could bridge the wealth divide that exists “piss against everything around here—inevitably they’ll be pissing between the north and the south? in their stations and they won’t like it.” 459 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 460

Mrs Villiers: I am sure the hon. Lady will be aware Norman Baker: I assure the hon. Gentleman that that that the redevelopment of Farringdon station involves element is an important part of the forward programme Crossrail and Thameslink. It is going to be an exceptionally that is occurring. busy and important station after that and there will be toilet facilities. It is intended that those facilities will be Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (The Cotswolds) (Con): When provided in the London underground aspect as part of the First Great Western franchise is retendered, would the Thameslink upgrade, so Crossrail passengers are the Minister consider allowing a provision to allow likely to have access to facilities nearby as part of the sufficient capital investment to improve the car parking London underground upgrade. at Kemble, which is already at capacity?

Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): When it comes to Norman Baker: We are reviewing the full franchise providing toilets, and indeed the whole rolling stock, process, led by my right hon. Friend the Minister of can the Minister assure me that there will be a level State. As part of the franchise consideration, we are playing field so that there is a fair chance that rolling looking at longer franchises that may include that sort stock can be constructed in Derby in the UK, rather of issue in due course. than in Germany as in the announcement last week? Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Given the circumstances in which FirstGroup decided Mrs Villiers: It is vitally important that all procurement to relinquish the contract, how will the Minister address processes are entirely fair to suppliers, including Bombardier. new franchises so that both the interests of the taxpayer National Air Traffic Services and the welfare of passengers are heeded? Norman Baker: That is an important and quite correct 8. Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): What question, because the present franchise held by First proportion of its stake in NATS Ltd the Government Great Western was undoubtedly skewed towards the plan to sell; and if he will make a statement. [61513] operator and away from the fare payer and the taxpayer. It is not a franchise that, frankly, the Government The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip would want replicated. The whole process of franchise Hammond): I recently launched a call for evidence on renewal is designed to eliminate that sort of unfair whether the Government need to retain a shareholding franchise. in NATS in order to meet our aviation policy objectives. The results will inform decisions on whether to sell all, Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): I certainly endorse part or none of the Government’s shareholding in the the Minister’s most recent remarks. Residents in Melksham company. I expect to update the House once we have in my constituency will want to do a lot better from the considered the responses to the call for evidence. new franchise than they did from the last one. Can he tell us when the public will have an opportunity to Kevin Brennan: Do I take it from that reply that the contribute to a consultation on the draft specification Secretary of State is considering a complete sell-off of for the new Great Western franchise? the Government’s interest in NATS? Can he also tell us what consultations he is having with the staff and the Norman Baker: I assure my hon. Friend that that airline group about their views on the matter? matter has been fully taken on board. There will be a full consultation, including with residents of his Mr Hammond: The call for evidence has gone to constituency. stakeholders in and around the company and the air traffic sector. We asked what the implications would be Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): FirstGroup of selling all, part or none of our shareholding. We are also manages First Capital Connect, the franchisee open-minded and conscious of the fact that there could operating the Thameslink route. As that franchisee has be strategic implications, and we want to understand consistently low scores on customer performance, will from the people who work in the industry what those the Minister give an assurance that the franchise will not strategic implications might be before making any decision. automatically be extended in 2015 but that we will have an opportunity to put it out to tender once again? First Great Western Norman Baker: No decision has been made on that 9. Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op): What recent matter, although clearly there are franchise terms to be discussions he has had with FirstGroup on the future adhered to by the franchise holder, and requirements in of the First Great Western rail franchise; and if he will law that must be adhered to by them and the Department. make a statement. [61514] Performance is an important matter for the railway and it is something I take seriously, as does my right hon. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Friend the Minister of State. I am aware of the concerns (Norman Baker): Department for Transport Ministers that have been expressed by passengers on the hon. and officials meet franchised train operators and their Gentleman’s line and I shall be meeting railway operatives owners regularly. These discussions have included the later today to discuss performance on the railway, including decision which has been announced by First Great on his line. Western to exit the franchise in March 2013. Accessible Travel Information

Chris Evans: On the electrification of the Great Western 10. Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab): If line, what action is being taken to ensure that the new he will bring forward proposals to ensure the provision franchisee works with Network Rail so that there is of accessible public travel information for blind and minimum customer disruption during that period? partially sighted people. [61515] 461 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 462

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport to get to work. Incidentally, that would be equivalent to (Norman Baker): The Department is committed to the Minister of State having to pay almost £20,000 a improving accessible transport information that is available year. Instead of asking commuters to plug the hole to enable people to plan their full journey. For example, caused by the transport budget being cut too far and the development of a journey planner for spectators too fast, will she think again? going to the Olympics has provided an important new opportunity to achieve high standards of accessible Mrs Villiers: We faced the largest peacetime deficit information. that we have ever faced. To continue with the biggest programme of rail upgrades in modern history, we Mr Cunningham: I thank the Minister for that answer, unfortunately must ask passengers to make a contribution. but has he had any discussions with the railway operators, The blame lies fairly and squarely with the previous particularly in relation to the implications of cuts in the Government for leaving us with a deficit and letting the staffing of railway stations for people with disabilities? cost of the railways spiral out of control.

Norman Baker: Matters relating to individual stations Cambridge and King’s Lynn Rail Line are, of course, ultimately ones for the franchise holder, but we have offered financial support for new information 12. Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): systems at more than 170 railway stations since 2006 What assessment his Department has made of the and audio-visual passenger systems have been mandatory potential benefit to the economy of upgrading the for all new rail vehicles since 1998. railway line between Cambridge and King’s Lynn. [61517] Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): I received a visit from my constituent, Lionel Broughton, on this matter with The Minister of State, Department for Transport regard to buses. My local bus company, Stagecoach, has (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Our current plans envisage that said that it will look at introducing visual and voice passengers on the fen line could benefit from new announcements on its fleet. Can the Minister do anything intercity express trains from 2018. That would offer to give the industry a nudge? improved passenger accommodation and a shorter journey time to London, subject to a satisfactory outcome to Norman Baker: I am delighted to say that I wrote to contractual negotiations with Agility Trains and timetabling the Confederation of Passenger Transport, which represents arrangements that will be finalised with the future franchisee. the main bus operators, on 23 May, to give exactly that nudge. Elizabeth Truss: With the area’s economic growth Rail Fares and the fact that passenger numbers between Downham Market and Cambridge have increased by 150% in the 11. Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): past 10 years, does the Minister agree that expanding What recent assessment he has made of the effects on the fen line northwards should be a key consideration in Network Rail’s next phased upgrade? household budgets of changes in rail fares. [61516]

The Minister of State, Department for Transport Mrs Villiers: My hon. Friend has campaigned strongly (Mrs Theresa Villiers): A distributional analysis of the to improve services on the fen line. I pay tribute to her impact of rail fare increases was conducted during the and the other local MPs who take this seriously. She is spending review and used to inform Department for absolutely right that passenger numbers have been Transport and Treasury decisions on spending review increasing. This has been a real success story. I would outcomes. certainly encourage her and her constituents to engage with Network Rail, as it looks to the next railway Katy Clark: I thank the Minister for that answer. Is control period to see what infrastructure improvements she aware of research by Passenger Focus that shows might be deliverable within affordability constraints. that people who buy their tickets from ticket machines pay far more expensive fares than if they used one of Low-carbon Vehicles the staffed ticket offices? The McNulty report calls for the closure of half of all our staffed railway offices. Will 14. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What she decide to reject those proposals to ensure, among steps he is taking to encourage take-up of low-carbon many other reasons, that people get the cheapest fares vehicles. [61519] they can? The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Mrs Villiers: The industry needs to do a lot better on Hammond): The Government have made provision of its ticket machines and to ensure that passengers are over £400 million for measures to promote the uptake properly informed about the ticket choices available. We of ultra-low-carbon vehicle technologies. These measures will continue to challenge the industry to do that through include support for consumer incentives, the development our fares review and the White Paper on the future of of recharging infrastructure and a programme of research, the rail industry which we intend to publish in November. development and demonstration work. Low-emission vehicles also benefit from tax advantages. Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): Given the Government’s decision to increase rail fares by Jo Swinson: A convenient network of publicly available 3% above inflation for each of the next three years, charging points is essential if we are to encourage the many commuters will have to spend a fifth of their uptake of electric cars, so I welcome the £1.45 million of household income—more than their mortgage or rent—just Government funding for Transport Scotland to build 463 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 464

375 charging points across the central belt of Scotland, £5.7 million scheme to improve the Canford Bottom but I was concerned at BBC media reports last month roundabout, which will include the installation of suggesting that the UK in general is behind schedule in 70 additional traffic lights to control traffic flow. During getting these charging points in place. Will the Secretary this summer, the Highways Agency will be trialling the of State give us an update on progress on charging use of its traffic officers on the route between London points? and Weymouth as an additional means to manage traffic flows. Mr Hammond: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her question and I agree that we need to understand the A63 way in which the public expect to use public charging points, in order to understand how we can best roll out 16. Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab): the electric vehicle programme. Early evidence from What plans he has for future improvements on the A63. other countries has produced some results that might [61522] not have been intuitive before the demonstration projects. It is true that the total number of charging posts that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport are rolled out will be less than was originally envisaged, (Mike Penning): The spending review announcement in because in a number of cases promoters of the plugged-in October 2010 listed the A63 Castle street improvement places schemes have determined that multi-headed charging scheme for potential construction in future spending posts are the best way forward. That accounts for some review periods, subject to the statutory process. of the discrepancy in numbers to which I think the hon. Lady is referring. Karl Turner: The Labour council has had productive talks with Associated British Ports and Siemens this Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Will the Minister week, but is it not about time the Government became consider maintaining the duty differential for sustainable enthusiastic about the massive investment in my biofuels? This has played an important role in creating constituency and considered bringing forward plans to green jobs, which are now threatened by the removal of improve the A63? We are desperate for that. the differential in April 2012. Mike Penning: The Government are very enthusiastic Mr Hammond: As my hon. Friend knows, the differential as well, and there have been discussions with colleagues plays an important role in bringing forward sustainable in the area and the Secretary of State in past days. We biofuels. In particular, the re-use of used oils is an have to accept the financial mess that the previous important source of sustainable fuels. However, all matters Administration left us in, but we will do everything we relating to duty are for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor can. If there are huge investments going in, perhaps the to consider and, when the current arrangements expire investors would also like to invest in that infrastructure, in 2012, he will consider whether to renew them and on as is the case in other parts of the country. what basis. Public Transport (2012 Olympics) Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): The Humber local economic partnership recently submitted a bid for 15. Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con): an enterprise zone based around both sides of the What recent discussions he has had with the Mayor of Humber—the green port in Hull and the Able UK site London on public transport provision during the on the south Humber gateway. The A63 will be key to London 2012 Olympics. [61521] linking that. What discussions has my hon. Friend had with the Department for Business, Innovation and The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Skills about the enterprise zone? Will he work in a Hammond): I have lead accountability in Government joined-up way across Government to progress the A63 for transport preparations for the 2012 Olympic games. development? Ministers and departmental officials regularly meet and correspond with the Mayor of London and Transport Mike Penning: We work across Government on all for London officials on a variety of London transport such projects. We accept that enterprise zones will bring issues, including those in relation to the 2012 Olympics. in more investment and growth, which is what we need The Mayor of London also attends the regular meetings to get out of the financial mess that we are in. I am sure of the Cabinet Sub-Committee overseeing preparations that we will meet other Ministers and work forwards, for the Olympics, of which I am a member. but we have to go through the statutory process first. Mr Ellwood: Not all the events are taking place in London Underground London. Bournemouth is still coming to terms with losing the bid for the beach volleyball to Horse Guards 17. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Whether Parade. However, Weymouth is delighted to be hosting he plans to bring forward proposals to prevent the sailing events. Can the Secretary of State outline unplanned industrial action on London Underground. what improvements to transport will take place for 2012 [61523] in that area? The Minister of State, Department for Transport Mr Hammond: I agree that on the face of it Bournemouth (Mrs Theresa Villiers): Existing legislation requires trade has a better beach than Horse Guards Parade, but there unions contemplating industrial action to ballot their we are. My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the membership and give due notice to the employer. The transport challenges around the other venues. Plans to Government encourage both London Underground and improve transport access to Weymouth during the Olympic the trade unions representing its employees to resolve games include temporary traffic management and a disputes as quickly as possible through negotiation. 465 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 466

Gavin Barwell: Given the huge disruption that strikes The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport on the underground cause for my constituents and for (Norman Baker): As my hon. and learned Friend will London’s economy, is it not about time that there was a recognise, the provision of bus services is primarily a no-strike agreement on this vital public service, preferably matter for either commercial operators or local councils negotiated with the union, but failing that through through tendered services, but we are cognisant of the Government legislation? importance of such services in rural areas and so have provided £10 million extra for community transport Mrs Villiers: Of course, I am well aware of the initiatives, and the local sustainable transport fund of Mayor’s ambitions to get a no-strike agreement, which I £560 million allows investment in bus services in rural think would be very positive if he can negotiate it with areas. the unions. With regard to changing strike law, the Government are not rushing to any kind of confrontation Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab): This with the unions, but Mr Crow and his colleagues at the morning the Transport Committee asked the Government RMT must recognise that the more irresponsibly they to withdraw their modernisation proposals for the behave, holding London to ransom, the more they coastguard and consult on revised plans. Its report is strengthen the argument of those who want a change in very clear: strike law. “The evidence we have received raises serious concerns that safety will be jeopardised if these proposals proceed.” Topical Questions Despite failing to do so before now, will the Secretary of State finally listen to coastguards up and down the T1. [61525] Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): country and abandon his dangerous and reckless plan If he will make a statement on his departmental to close more than half of Britain’s coastguard stations? responsibilities. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip (Mike Penning): We welcome the Committee’s report. If Hammond): Since I last answered departmental questions, the hon. Lady looks at it carefully, she will see that it Sir Roy McNulty has published his report on improving actually says that the status quo is not acceptable and value for money on our railways, which I have committed that coastguard stations need to close. The process we to responding to by publishing detailed proposals for inherited from the previous Administration had been the future of the railways before the end of the year. I sitting on their desks for years. We said right at the start have published a new strategic framework for road of the process that we would listen and come up with safety and announced the outcome of the competition proposals after consulting. It is a shame that they did to build carriages for the Thameslink programme. Today not do the same. my right hon. Friend the Minister of State has launched a consultation on proposals to reform the air travel T4. [61529] Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) organiser’s licence holiday protection scheme. I have (Con): Will the Minister meet me to discuss also dealt with the consequences of the Grimsvotn performance issues on the Medway valley line, which volcano eruption, which is a good deal easier to say runs through my constituency? than Eyjafjallajokull and, I am pleased to say, caused a The Minister of State, Department for Transport good deal less disruption. (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I would be entirely happy to do that. It is important that all rail passengers have access Kate Green: Trafford Park in my constituency is to reliable services. The Under-Secretary of State for home to many international businesses and makes a Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman crucial contribution to UK manufacturing and exports. Baker) and I are very focused on that issue and would Excellent rail links are essential to its success. In planning be happy to meet my hon. Friend. for High Speed 2, what is being done to ensure that it and the wider regional rail network are fully integrated? Margaret Beckett (Derby South) (Lab): Is the Secretary of State aware that words such as “rebalancing our Mr Hammond: I would make two points to the hon. economy to promote private sector jobs and skilled Lady. First, High Speed 2 will release significant amounts manufacturing” ring very hollow in Derby, where 3,000 of capacity on the west coast main line, which will be such jobs are now at risk as a result of a decision to available for different types of service, including freight. build Thameslink trains in Germany? I understand that Secondly, we are clear that high-speed rail is not an the Government reviewed and reconfirmed the contract alternative to investment in our conventional railways. after the election, but I understand also that the Secretary Once people arrive at the high-speed destinations they of State still has the power to call in the process and to will still need to get to their local destinations across the invite the bidders to re-tender. Can he confirm that he region, so we have to reinforce the regional rail networks will now do so? as part and parcel of the programme of rail investment. Mr Philip Hammond: I understand the disappointment T3. [61528] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) felt by Bombardier and, indeed, the anxiety felt by the (Con): I recently had the pleasure of meeting the parish people of Derby about that decision, but before the council in the village of South Kyme in my right hon. Lady delivers me a finger-wagging lecture constituency, which brought to my attention the loss of perhaps I can remind her of a couple of points. Her the village’s only bus service. Many constituents have Government designed and initiated the procurement reported to me the loss of bus services, which are process, and some Members may remember that they incredibly important for rural communities. What used to call it Thameslink 2000. We inherited it 16 years support can the Department lend to re-establish that late and £600 million over budget, and it fell to us service and ensure that those that exist remain? effectively to open the envelope. The procurement was 467 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 468 carried out under the terms of the EU directive, and the Mrs Villiers: The issue of a short franchise will not Siemens bid offered the best value for money on the have an impact one way or another on those decisions, criteria for appraisal set out in the original competition so I can give my hon. Friend an assurance on that. I that the previous Government launched. We have to cannot guarantee that future franchises will necessarily comply with EU law, and I do not have the power that reintroduce through services, so it will be very important, she suggests I have. with him, to work with bidders for the next franchise to I firmly believe that free trade and open markets are find out what they consider viable and commercially the best way for us to proceed, but I believe also in the viable. I can assure him, however, that the Government’s concept of the level playing field, and there is a case for commitment to delivering the Beccles loop will provide looking at the way in which some of our neighbours more frequent services and, I hope, a significant economic and competitors operate the EU procurement directive, benefit to his constituents. because it seems quite astonishing that, complying with Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab): Commuters that directive as we do, they have managed to achieve in Lewisham repeatedly express to me their anger about very high percentage penetrations of French-built trains having to pay ever increasing rail fares for ever more on the French railway and of German-built trains on overcrowded train services. What discussions has the the German railway. Minister had recently with the Mayor of London to impress on him that train services are as important, if T6. [61531] Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) not more so, than his beloved bikes? (Con): As my right hon. Friend has just said, the previous Government tied the hands of this Mrs Villiers: I can assure the hon. Lady that this Government on such decisions, including the Government are placing a high priority on tackling Thameslink contract, which, as he is aware, affects my overcrowding on our railways. In more or less every constituency. What can we do to ensure that British spending squeeze there has ever been, the first thing business does not lose out as a result of this false that gets axed is transport upgrade projects. We have economy of going for cheap foreign contracts that committed significant funds to the Mayor of London to leave us picking up the domestic dole bill? upgrade London’s transport systems, and we are committing significant funds across the rest of the country to support Mr Hammond: I understand the concern of people in investment in our railways to relieve overcrowding. It is Crewe as well, of course, but we must not fall into a a high priority for us and for the Mayor. trap. The Siemens bid clearly offered the best value for money, and we must not lose sight of that fact. The T8. [61533] Gordon Henderson (Sittingbourne and wider issue of how we operate the procurement directive, Sheppey) (Con): What steps is my right hon. Friend and of how we work with the UK supply chain in taking to mitigate the effects of foreign hauliers who industries such as rolling stock construction, is something use their advantage of being able to buy fuel more that we need to review, and I am in discussions with my cheaply on the continent to undercut British right hon. Friend the Business Secretary about how we companies? do that. Mike Penning: We have a commitment to bringing in lorry road user charging to level the playing field. It is T5. [61530] Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): I recently met a important, however, that we do not penalise our own group of my constituents from Hunter Lodge in truckers with whatever scheme we bring in. We are in Wigan, who told me that they are unable to travel ongoing negotiations with the Treasury and we are together on train services throughout the country committed to introducing a scheme in this Parliament. because most companies will carry only one wheelchair user at a time. Does the Minister agree that, 16 years Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): The after the landmark Disability Discrimination Act 1995, Secretary of State will no doubt have seen the reports in it is entirely unacceptable that that appalling situation yesterday’s newspapers about Willie Walsh of British should continue? What is he therefore doing to put Airways having suggested that as a consequence of the pressure on train companies to ensure that the situation fact that a third runway will not be built in the south-east does not continue? at Heathrow, he will increase BA’s business in Madrid. Is that not rather ironic? Norman Baker: I entirely sympathise with the hon. Mr Philip Hammond: I am pleased to see that British Lady’s point about disabled people having difficulty Airways, along with BAA, now accepts the finality of accessing some trains. There is a long-standing arrangement the coalition Government’s decision that we will not by which trains are expected to become compliant by allow the building of a third runway at Heathrow 2020, and we are sticking to that and putting pressure airport. However, that is not the end of the matter. We on the train companies to accelerate it wherever possible. have to provide for aviation growth in the south-east of In addition, we are spending a good deal of money on England, and in the UK as a whole, in order to meet the access for all at railway stations in order to ensure that needs of a growing economy in future. That is why we stations themselves are properly accessible to all people have launched a scoping document and will bring forward who want to use them. a new sustainable aviation policy by the end of next year. T7. [61532] Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): Can the Minister provide an assurance that the granting of a T9. [61534] Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Will short-term, two-and-a-half year contract for the my right hon. Friend update the House on what Greater Anglia rail franchise will not delay planning progress has been made on the reopening of the for the reintroduction of a through service from Todmorden curve, which will provide a faster rail route Liverpool Street to Lowestoft? between East Lancashire and Manchester? 469 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 470

Mrs Villiers: I am very much aware of the potential arrangements for parental leave reflect an expectation benefits of that project in helping to regenerate an area that the mother will stay at home and care for the that is heavily dependent on public sector jobs. For children. Those arrangements urgently need reform. precisely those reasons, it would be an impressive candidate Although we will use a range of approaches to reduce for funding from the regional growth fund. I understand the gender pay gap, this is an important element. that the local authorities are working on that at the moment. I pay tribute to the work done by those in Gavin Barwell: In the light of the Prime Minister’s Burnley and on Lancashire county council on getting speech about the importance of men taking responsibility the project moving. My officials stand ready, and are and a more active role in the upbringing of their children, indeed working with the local authorities, to see how we is it not time for a much more flexible system, which might be able to help to take things forward. This is encourages and allows them to do that? primarily a local matter, but there is the real prospect of a successful RGF bid. Mrs May: I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. That is precisely what our flexible parental leave proposals, Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): Eddington on which we are consulting, will do. Crucially, they will identified congestion as a major and growing cost to the not only allow the father and mother to share parental economy. Across Europe, towns and cities have light leave, but will enable them to take time off together in rail systems, which alleviate congestion. When are the the early stages following the child’s birth, if that is Government going to put real political will and resource what they want. It will be possible for fathers to be behind developing light rail systems across Britain? much more involved in the very early stage of their child’s life. Norman Baker: I am happy to say that we have done a great deal for light rail in the time since the general Homophobia (Sport) election, including authorising extensions to the systems in Nottingham, Manchester and Birmingham. I have 2. Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North authorised a tram trial project in Sheffield and Ipswich) (Con): What steps she is taking to reduce the commissioned a report internally on value for money in incidence of homophobia in sport. [61536] light rail, and that report is now on my desk. We recognise the values of light rail and we are taking it The Secretary of State for the Home Department and forward in a real way. Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May): We are encouraging every club, team, player and fan to sign up to our new charter, “Tackling Homophobia and Transphobia in Sport”, and to work with us to put an WOMEN AND EQUALITIES end to homophobia and transphobia in sport. We are working with the top sports national bodies, Sport England and the London Organising Committee of the The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked— Olympic Games and Paralympic Games to tackle this Parental Leave issue. I am pleased to say that yesterday the Prime Minister hosted a reception in No. 10 to celebrate the 1. Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con): What assessment good work that is under way to drive homophobia and she has made of the effects on women workers of transphobia out of sport. proposed reforms of parental leave. [61535] Dr Poulter: Given our wish to get a lot of young 7. Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): What people involved in sport, and with the Olympics happening assessment she has made of the effects on women next year, does my right hon. Friend agree that we need workers of proposed reforms of parental leave. [61543] to break down homophobic attitudes among young people in particular and to ensure that young people The Secretary of State for the Home Department and can fully participate in sport? What will the Government Minister for Women and Equalities (Mrs Theresa May): do to facilitate that? Our proposals for a new system of parental leave will protect mothers’ rights while giving families more choice Mrs May: I agree with my hon. Friend that that is and flexibility over how they can share their work and important. We want sport to be welcoming for everyone. caring responsibilities. The proposals mean that working Spectators and participants should feel that there is no mothers will be better able to keep in touch with their barrier for them, and should not feel concerned about employer, and they will also aid career progression for the sort of comments they might hear. It is important working mothers and help to tackle pregnancy that young people are taught and shown the way forward. discrimination. I think that our charter will help to do that. We need to work on homophobia particularly in Charlie Elphicke: One of the key problems faced by relation to football. Over time, football has not done working mothers is the gender pay gap, which is a enough to deal with this issue. Sadly, the terraces of shocking thing. Will these reforms help to reduce the football clubs are too often places where homophobic gender pay gap? and transphobic comments are made. I am pleased to say that the Football Association was represented at the Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that reception at No. 10 yesterday. Too often in the past issue. I think that the reforms will reduce the gender pay there has been a reluctance among the football authorities gap, because the division of caring responsibilities between to deal with this issue and frankly it is time that football parents is one of the underlying issues. The current got its house in order. 471 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 472

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I wholeheartedly endorse Chris Skidmore: In the light of tragic cases such as what the Minister for Women and Equalities has said that of Fiona Pilkington, and the publication this week about football. It is a great sadness that there has been of Mencap’s “Don’t Stand By” report, does the Minister only one out gay footballer, and he ended up committing agree that police forces must identify the key challenges suicide partly because of the reaction. Has the Minister to the tackling of disability hate crime, and must use the come across the charity Diversity Role Models? It plays data that they collect to improve the fight against that an important role in taking gay and lesbian people from appalling abuse? many walks of life into schools, so that young people can see that the homophobic bullying to which they Maria Miller: I agree with my hon. Friend that it is might have been subjected is not the right way forward. important for us to learn lessons. I welcome Mencap’s report, and was delighted to attend its launch earlier Mrs May: I am not aware of that organisation, but I this week. am happy for the hon. Gentleman to send me details The police face a number of challenges, including not about it. It is important that we use every opportunity just data collection but the need to show leadership, to to ensure that young people get the right messages, and show that they are making the issue a priority, and to that they do not just stand on the terraces or participate ensure that the right training is provided. I pay tribute in sport and get the wrong messages. One problem, as to organisations such as Breakthrough UK in Manchester the hon. Gentleman said, is that only a few key sports and BSafe Blackpool, with whose representatives I have people have come out across a number of sports. discussed the issue at length.

Chris Bryant: Rugby? Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): Has the Minister discussed with the Secretary of State for Justice Mrs May: Rugby has a better record than football. I whether the proposal in his Bill for the duties relating to hope that we can have a situation in which gay sports all hate crimes to be wrapped up into a general duty will players feel that they can come out. enable the current focus on individual groups to be retained? Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I welcome what the Minister said in relation to the Olympics and Maria Miller: The hon. Lady has raised an important tackling homophobia. Have the Government thought question. The first stage in the overall process involves about how the Olympics can be used to encourage our ensuring that we are aware of the magnitude of the participating countries to tackle homophobia in their problem, and it is therefore important that, since April, home countries? hate crimes have for the first time been recorded. As the hon. Lady suggests, we must ensure that we have access Mrs May: The Olympic games present an important to a breakdown of the figures, and I will ensure that the opportunity for a clear message to be sent across the appropriate people in the appropriate Ministry are aware world. The London Organising Committee of the Olympic of our feelings in that regard. Games and Paralympic Games has already produced a pin badge which, as well as the London 2012 logo, Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): As you know, features a rainbow flag illustrating its commitment to Mr Speaker, I had hoped to ask a supplementary question tackling homophobia and transphobia in sport. It is about the impact on women of charges for learning considering what else it can do. English as a second language. I am disappointed that We should send that message from the Olympic games the Secretary of State, who has overall responsibility to other countries, but we should do more, and I am across Government for the women and equalities agenda, pleased to say that Ministers have agreed to raise lesbian, has decided that how that affects women is not an issue gay, bisexual and transsexual issues with other Governments for her. I wonder whether she is considering only Home whenever possible during overseas visits. The Minister Office matters, but in any event this is a Home Office for Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Hornsey matter. and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone), did just that Mencap’s “Stand By Me” report makes a clear demand during her recent trip to India and Nepal. for specialist policing. It reveals straightforwardly that police authorities with specialist police resources deal Disability Hate Crimes with disability hate crime more effectively than other authorities. Given that the Home Secretary is cutting 3. Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con): What steps the police force by removing 10,000 officers, what action she is taking to improve the recording of disability hate will the Minister take to ensure that every police area crimes. [61537] has a specialist resource that is trained and able to deal with the issue? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller): The Government are Maria Miller: As the hon. Lady will know, Cabinet committed to better recording of hate crimes, and important Office guidance on parliamentary questions governs progress has already been made. Since April, police what questions are answered in this Question Time. forces have been formally collecting data on disability It is important for us to take account of individual hate crime for the first time. We are working with key areas in the country and the needs that may arise there. voluntary sector partners, including disabled people’s The position is different in each police authority area, organisations such as Voice UK and RADAR, to encourage and local police constables and chief police constables more reporting of hate crimes, and I think that that will should be able to take account of that. However, the make a significant contribution. police alone do not provide the answer. Disabled people’s 473 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 474 organisations have an important role to play in helping Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab): I was to ensure that disabled people feel that they have an surprised to discover that the data have not been collected, opportunity to report crimes accurately, and I pay so that trends cannot be found. I welcome the Government’s tribute to those organisations for the work that they are commitment to collecting those data. May I suggest, doing in that regard. however, that the Government also consider the catalyst of the crime that is reported, particularly as a number Disability Hate Crimes of disabled people say that they have been spat at in the street or called scroungers because of some of the 4. Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): What recent headlines that have been in the newspapers? assessment she has made of trends in the number of disability hate crimes. [61538] Maria Miller: After 13 years of the previous Administration, it is a shame that speedier action was 5. Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab): What not taken on that. I am glad that the coalition Government recent assessment she has made of trends in the have taken action so quickly. number of disability hate crimes. [61540] The hon. Lady is right to say that we are dealing with the symptoms, not the causes, of the problem. That is The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work why we are putting a great deal of effort and energy into and Pensions (Maria Miller): Until recently there has ensuring that there are positive images of disabled been no formal collection of data on disability hate people. We have a consultation at the moment on how crime. We are committed to promoting better recording to involve more disabled people in political life. Having of it, and from April this year forces started collecting disabled people at the centre of decision making will the relevant data. When the statistics are published next help to change people’s attitudes. summer we will have a clearer picture of local patterns and trends, which will help the police target their resources Rape Prosecutions in the most effective way. 6. Dan Jarvis (Barnsley Central) (Lab): What recent Mr Hanson: The Minister will know that following discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on the publication of the Mencap report on Monday, there steps to increase the rate of prosecution for rape. are some positive suggestions about how we can encourage [61542] further reporting of hate crime. Will she agree to have a The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone): Rape discussion with the Association of Chief Police Officers prosecution is regularly discussed at ministerial level to consider what I know from experience are very through the inter-ministerial group on violence against difficult issues? women. It is completely unacceptable that so many women and men are victims of this abhorrent crime. We Maria Miller: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman have taken action to support rape victims and improve will be relieved to know that we are already having such prosecutions by training specialist rape prosecutors in conversations with ACPO. It is very important that all areas, providing £1.72 million of funding a year for those discussions include disabled people and the independent sexual violence advisers who support victims organisations that represent them, because they have an through the criminal justice system, and putting funding important role to play. for rape support centres on a stable footing. Mr Sutcliffe: I welcome the Minister’s comments on Dan Jarvis: Around 5,000 people each year are arrested reporting, but how can we give disability organisations on suspicion of rape and not charged. Some have gone and disabled people themselves the confidence to report on to commit further offences and been convicted as a crime? What work can take place on that? result of being on the DNA database. The Prime Minister was not able to answer this question yesterday, so Maria Miller: I reiterate the role that user-led perhaps the Minister will today. Why does she think it is organisations can have, such as the one in Blackpool, right to get rid of the DNA of those arrested for but not BSafe, that I visited with my hon. Friend the Member charged with rape? for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard). Such organisations can have a real effect by giving Lynne Featherstone: Mainly because they are innocent. people the confidence to report. If they have the right The Government start from the principle that someone systems in place—we are helping RADAR develop who is arrested for, or charged with, a criminal offence those systems—third-party reporting can be effective as but not subsequently convicted is innocent. Unlike the well. last Government, we will not hold the DNA of 1 million innocent people indefinitely. While they were busy filling Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): As schools the database with the DNA of innocent people, they already report any incidents of hatred against disabled absolutely failed to collect the DNA of the guilty, who people, will the Minister work with the Department for were liable and had been convicted, and who might very Education to ensure that the trends reported in schools well offend again. are carried over to Home Office figures? Will the two Departments work together so that if there is a problem Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): My hon. Friend has of hatred against disabled people in schools, the Home written that nine out of 10 rapes go unreported, and Office is aware of it and will work with schools to that 38% of serious sexual assault victims tell no one address it? about their experience. Reported rape is just the tip of the iceberg. I know that we are putting £10.5 million Maria Miller: My hon. Friend raises a very important into rape centres, but what can we do to encourage point, and I will ensure that it is taken up. victims to walk through their doors in the first place? 475 Oral Answers23 JUNE 2011 Oral Answers 476

Lynne Featherstone: I thank my hon. Friend for that are arrested but not charged. In those 5,000 cases, the question. She is quite right that reported rape is the tip police have decided that there is enough evidence to of the iceberg. The funding—stable funding, unlike pass a case to the Crown Prosecution Service, but the under the previous Government—to support rape centres CPS has decided not to charge. right across the country is one thing we can do. We are We know that, for a series of reasons, rape is notoriously also filling in the gaps: we will have centres in Hereford, difficult to charge and convict, and we know that there Trafford, Devon and Dorset this year, and more work is is evidence among those 5,000 cases of people who have being done to identify other areas so that coverage goes committed serious offences and who will go on to right across the country. The police have a job to do too, offend again. Under the Minister’s rules, the DNA of in the work that they do to send out a message loud— John Warboys would not have been kept. Will the Minister now think again and do something serious to Mr Speaker: Order. I am trying to help the House increase rape prosecutions? and to facilitate Back Benchers, but we must have short questions and short answers. Lynne Featherstone: What the right hon. Lady has Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) said is not accurate. When someone is arrested, there (Lab): I am sorry that the Home Secretary chose not to are circumstances under which the DNA can be retained. answer that question, because it was raised in Prime I shall run through those very briefly. DNA can be Minister’s questions and it is a serious issue. The answer retained if the victim of the alleged offence is under 18; from the Minister for Equalities to my hon. Friend the if the victim of the alleged offence is a vulnerable adult; Member for Barnsley Central (Dan Jarvis) was deeply if the victim of the alleged offence is in a close relationship unsatisfactory. She is keeping on the database the DNA with the subject; and, to answer her point precisely, if of people who have been charged but not convicted. the police consider that retention is necessary to safeguard However, she is refusing to keep the DNA of those who the public. 477 23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 478

Business of the House Following your comments on Tuesday, Mr Speaker, about the Government holding press conferences on major policy announcements before they come to the 11.37 am House to answer questions from MPs, will the Leader Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab): Will the Leader of the House now make time available for the Procedure of the House give us the forthcoming business? Committee’s proposals on ministerial statements to be debated? The Committee’s idea that Ministers would be The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George forced to make a formal apology on the Floor of the Young): The business for next week will be: House for breaching the rules might concentrate the Government’s mind. MONDAY 27 JUNE—A debate on House of Lords reform. Last week I asked the Leader of the House about reconsidering the strategic defence review. Yesterday the TUESDAY 28 JUNE—Remaining stages of the Finance Prime Minister came to the House and let slip that he is (No.3) Bill (day one). doing so already, although he had not previously told WEDNESDAY 29 JUNE—Second Reading of the Legal anyone, least of all the House of Commons. In the Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. Prime Minister’s own words: THURSDAY 30 JUNE—A motion to bring in a resolution, “We have had a review of the national security and defence on which a Bill is to be brought in, followed by a motion review over the past year”—[Official Report, 22 June 2011; Vol. 530, to approve a regulatory reform order relating to Epping c. 315.] Forest. When can we expect a statement on the outcome of the The provisional business for the week commencing review? 4 July will include: This week the climate change Secretary attacked right- wing ideologues and deregulation zealots for putting ONDAY 4JULY—Conclusion of remaining stages of M environmental regulations, including those in climate the Finance (No.3) Bill (day two). change and national parks legislation, on a list of TUESDAY 5JULY—Opposition day (19th allotted day). so-called red tape that might be scrapped. We wish the There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject Secretary of State well in his fight to save the regulations, to be announced. but has the Leader of the House had any indication that WEDNESDAY 6JULY—Estimates day (3rd allotted day). the Cabinet Secretary’s right-wing, zealous Cabinet There will be debates on the Prevent strategy, and on colleagues—presumably they were who he was talking Afghanistan and Pakistan. Further details will be given about—have asked to make a statement by way of right in the Official Report. of reply to this grave charge? If not, may we at least be [The details are as follows: The Prevent strategy: given a list of their names so that we can keep score? 6th Report from the Communities and Local Government On the subject of zealots, may we have a statement Committee of Session 2009-10, HC 65, “Preventing Violent from the Prime Minister on how he has got on since Extremism”. PMQs yesterday in his desperate attempts to prevent Afghanistan and Pakistan: 4th Report from the Foreign Tory MEPs from voting against a 30% reduction in Affairs Committee of Session 2010-12, HC 514, “The emissions—which is, after all, a coalition policy—in the UK’s foreign policy approach to Afghanistan and Pakistan”; European Parliament today? This is a real test of his and the Government’s response, CM 8064.] authority, and if he fails it his claim to be leading the greenest Government ever will be in tatters. At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates. May I offer the Leader of the House an apology? I fear that my comments on weekly bin collections may THURSDAY 7JULY—Proceedings on the Consolidated have inadvertently contributed to a widening of the rift Fund Bill, followed by consideration of Lords amendments between the environment Secretary and the communities to the Fixed-Term Parliaments Bill. Secretary over whose turn it is to take the rubbish out. I should also like to inform the House that the The Daily Telegraph today reported: business in Westminster Hall for Thursday 30 June 2011 “Cabinet pair ‘at daggers drawn’ after bitter bin collection will be: feud.” THURSDAY 30 JUNE—A debate on co-operatives and It seems that the right hon. Lady hung up on the right mutuality in the economy. hon. Gentleman, and the pair are thought not to have spoken since. A colleague said: Hilary Benn: I am grateful to the Leader of the “The whole thing is fairly unpleasant. . .” House for that reply. So may we have a statement on why this fragile coalition On tonight’s vote on stopping the use of wild animals inside the Conservative party now seems to be falling in circuses, will the Leader of the House reassure us that apart? the Government are not whipping their vote? Would it After all the policy changes, pauses, rethinks, repudiations, not be ironic if the whip were used to defeat the ban so and U-turns in the past few weeks—by the way, I that people can go on cracking a whip at circus animals? congratulate the Foreign and Commonwealth Office It is learning disability week, and yesterday I met a website on its honesty for yesterday announcing changes group from Leeds who had come to tell MPs that they to the BBC World Service with the headline face discrimination every day. Does the right hon. “Massive U-turn on BBC World Service funding”— Gentleman agree that any idea that disabled people did the Leader of the House see the conclusion drawn should be paid less than the minimum wage would be by one unhappy Conservative MP who this week said: outrageous discrimination, and may we have a statement “It’s not worth going out on a limb for something if it may be condemning it? abandoned when the tabloids or the Lib Dems kick up”? 479 Business of the House23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 480

[Hilary Benn] more offensive comments were made about Ministers in the same party, so I am not sure that he should raise the Pity the loyal Back Benchers: they are keen to help, issue on the Floor on the House. eager to please and want to back their Government, but So far as MEPs are concerned, the coalition’s policy they now have absolutely no idea, with all this prime is wholly unaffected by what happens in the European ministerial hokey cokey, whether policies that are in this Parliament. The coalition Government’s commitment week might be policies that are out next week, or at the to reducing CO2 emissions and climate change remains very least shaken all about. May we therefore have a unaffected. statement reassuring them that if they do take the As for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, I hope plunge and voice support for the Government, they will that the right hon. Gentleman welcomes the additional not be left high and dry as so many of the Prime £2.2 million for the Arabic service, for which there was Minister’s Cabinet colleagues have found themselves in support among Members on both sides of the House. recent weeks? Finally, does this collective loss of nerve In the context of a budget for the World Service of by the Government not show just how right was the some £250 million, it is difficult to describe that as a Treasury mandarin who last week complained: mammoth U-turn. It is a sensible and welcome change “They just don’t seem to have thought any of this stuff through”? in response to pressure from the House. Sir Humphrey could not have put it better himself. So far as rethinking Government policies is concerned, I wonder how long it will be before the right hon. Hon. Members: More! Gentleman’s party reconsiders the shadow Chancellor’s view on a reduction in VAT, which it seems was introduced Sir George Young: We hear that the shadow Leader without any consultation with his colleagues. of the House’s bid to lead his party goes from strength to strength. I can report that following my comments Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con): Would last week, even The Independent has been tempted into my right hon. Friend consider it appropriate to hold a a flutter: debate in Government time on the future of the “I’d put £50 on Hilary Benn. He’s not an automatic embarrassment. Commonwealth? We are approaching an important His performance as shadow Leader is widely admired. And Heads of Government conference in the autumn and, there’s the hereditary principle working in his favour.” more imminently, the centennial conference of the With friends like those, what is holding—[Interruption.] Commonwealth Parliamentary Association here in London.

Mr Speaker: Order. I want to hear the views of the Sir George Young: I welcome my right hon. Friend’s Leader of the House on the hereditary principle. work as chairman of the CPA in organising an important conference at the end of next month. I am glad that a Sir George Young: As the sixth baronet, I am in number of my ministerial colleagues will speak at the favour of the hereditary principle. conference, which I hope will be a great success. I would be misleading him, however, if I said that I could find Let me turn to the shadow Leader of the House’s time between now and the summer recess for a debate questions. I note in passing that he asked very few on the Commonwealth, but I hope that there might be questions about next week’s business. None the less, on an opportunity to raise the issue in Foreign and the motion dealing with circus animals, we are tackling Commonwealth Office questions or perhaps to seek a a problem that he singularly failed to tackle during his debate in Westminster Hall. time in government. Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I am Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): Are you whipping? sorry to go on about this, but the Leader of the House gives me absolutely no option. The Government are not Sir George Young: The Government are perfectly sticking to their promise of allocating one day a week as entitled to defend their position in the House and in a Back-Bench time. At the moment, we are running at Division. about one day a month, and I am sure that the problem As for shadow Leader of the House’s question about cannot possibly be the subjects that we are choosing to disabled people and the minimum wage, the suggestion debate on the Floor of the House, so will he please made was outrageous. It is not Government policy, and again consider allocating one set, regular, non-Thursday I agree with what he said about it. slot as Back-Bench time? We would welcome a debate on ministerial statements. Sir George Young: Let me reassure the hon. Lady, It is for the Backbench Business Committee to find time whose work as Chair of the Backbench Business Committee to debate the proposals of the Procedure Committee. I admire, that we will stick to our promise that there will This Government have made roughly one third more be 35 days in the Session, plus injury time because this ministerial statements a day than the outgoing Session is longer. We cannot offer one day every week, Administration, and we are more than anxious to keep and a large number of days at the beginning of the the House fully informed. There will not be another Session were devoted to general debates. We might be SDSR, as the Prime Minister made clear, and there is able to catch up towards the end of the Session, but at not a review of it. the moment I am under enormous pressure to provide As for the right hon. Gentleman’s comments about adequate time to debate Government measures, and she zealots, which I believe were reported in the press, the has a whole day today to debate Back-Bench business. I comments and criticisms within the coalition Government reassure her that we will honour the agreement of 35 are, from time to time, made by members of two different days per Session, plus injury time because this Session is parties, whereas in the previous Government much longer than normal. 481 Business of the House23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 482

Several hon. Members rose— Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): The Leader of the House will know that the base interest Mr Speaker: Order. A further 38 right hon. and hon. rate is 0.5%. Is he aware that my constituents and others Members are seeking to catch my eye. As always, I up and down the land are paying 19.1% interest on their should like to accommodate them, but I remind the credit cards? The failure of the credit card industry to House that two debates are taking place today under lower its rates in line with the base rate has ripped off the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee, our constituents by £500 million. When may we have a both of which are well subscribed. Brevity from Back debate on the way in which interest rates are ripping off Benchers and Front Benchers alike is therefore of the consumers and small businesses? essence. Sir George Young: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con): concern at the gap between the base rate and the rate Does my right hon. Friend share my disappointment charged by credit card companies and other lending that he was unable to announce today a debate on the organisations. There will be an opportunity to raise this armed forces? Is he aware that the Backbench Business matter of consumer protection in questions to the Committee—through no fault of its Chair, I have to Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, as well say—has refused my request for a debate on the armed as in Treasury questions. Alternatively, the hon. Gentleman forces, although we have not had one since September could apply for a debate on the Adjournment. last year, in favour of a request to debate eight or 28 circus animals? That is an important subject that would Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): May we be appropriate for a debate in Westminster Hall, but I have a statement next week from the Leader of the understand that that already happened a couple of House on why the Government are rowing back on weeks ago. their commitment to provide a day a week for Back-Bench business? It is no good for him to suggest that Members Sir George Young: I understand where my right hon. refer their requests to the Backbench Business Committee Friend, who is Chair of the Defence Select Committee, if the Government are not giving us any days. May I is coming from, but under the Wright Committee suggest that it is his job to resist pressure from the proposals the four days per Session that were allocated Executive for debates? for defence have been put into the pot, which is now owned by the Backbench Business Committee. It is Sir George Young: I am under enormous pressure therefore up to the Backbench Business Committee to from both sides of the House to provide adequate time decide how to allocate those days, and I think that his to debate Government legislation. We have accommodated comments were addressed as much to the Committee as two days for the Report stages of a number of Bills they were to me. because we think it important that the House has adequate time for such debates. If my hon. Friend looks Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): On at the Standing Orders, he will see that the commitment parliamentary accountability, or the lack of it, why did was to 35 days per Session, not to one day a week. As I the Secretary of State for Defence table a written statement said to the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire today on the cost of the military operation in Libya, (Natascha Engel), we will abide by our commitment. I rather than making an oral statement at the Dispatch must also point out that there would be no Backbench Box? Is it not unfortunate that we get our information Business Committee at all, were it not for the coalition either from the media or from written statements, and Government introducing one. that the Minister responsible does not come here to explain and justify his actions and to answer questions Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): There is a accordingly? Focus store in Consett in my constituency, as I am sure there are in many others. I have been contacted by Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman says that the Kingfisher, the parent company, which wants to take Government have not made a statement, but he is over the store and all its staff, but it has been advised holding in his hand the Government’s statement. As I that it will not get a decision from the Office of Fair said a few moments ago, the record of this Government Trading until September. That will be too late for my on making statements is better than the record of the constituents, who will be made redundant by the Focus Government whom he supported. receiver on 18 July. The redundancy payments and welfare benefits represent a massive cost that does not Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Following the need to be incurred. May we have a statement on what schools Minister’s welcome announcement this morning action the Government will take to speed up the OFT’s that grammar schools such as those in my constituency decision? will be allowed to expand, may we have a debate on grammar schools and their positive impact on social Sir George Young: Of course I understand the concern mobility? that the hon. Lady expresses on behalf of her constituents, and I will contact the OFT today to remind it of her Sir George Young: Again, my hon. Friend’s request concern and ask it for an urgent response. might have been heard by the Backbench Business Committee. The policy of the coalition Government is Priti Patel (Witham) (Con): Local communities in that, where grammar schools exist, they should be my constituency have been left devastated after the allowed to expand. We are not, however, in favour of Planning Inspectorate imposed Traveller sites on various starting them in areas that do not have them. I personally communities, based on the outdated planning policies would welcome such a debate, and I hope that that can of the previous Government. A Government consultation be arranged through the Backbench Business Committee is taking place on the planning circulars. May we have a or possibly on the Adjournment. debate, so that Members can influence that consultation? 483 Business of the House23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 484

[Priti Patel] Mr David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): Will my right hon. Friend arrange for a debate on the Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s apprenticeships programme, in the light of today’s excellent concern. It sounds as though that decision was reached news about apprenticeship numbers? We should all be under the existing rules on Traveller sites. Our view is delighted that there are 114,000 more apprenticeships in that the rules are not fit for purpose, so we are consulting the year, which will provide real opportunities for our on an alternative set of proposals. The consultation young people. closes on 6 July, and I am sure that my hon. Friend will respond to it. I cannot promise her a debate on the Sir George Young: I am grateful to my hon. Friend subject she raises, but the Localism Bill is now in for his question, and I commend to the House the another place, where there might be an opportunity to written ministerial statement from the Minister for Further debate proposals on Traveller sites. Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning. There will be some 25,000 more apprenticeship places as a result of Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab): Is the Leader of the steps we have taken, and we see that as an important the House aware that hundreds of Derbyshire constituents part of the road to recovery and dealing with the high are up in arms at the prospect of there not being an oral youth unemployment that we inherited. statement about the railway contract that went to Siemens in Germany, rather than to Bombardier in Derby? Why are this Government not acting like the Government in Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Ahead of Germany, where about 90% of the contracts stay in the visit by the Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, may we Germany? About 100% of such contracts stay in France. have a debate on human rights in China? We welcome And do not tell me it is because of what the last the release yesterday on conditional bail of Ai Weiwei, Government did; this Government are supposed to be but the Nobel peace prize winner Liu Xiaobo is still doing something else. I never voted for the free movement banged up in the Chinese communist gulag. When the of capital and labour, unlike the Leader of the House Prime Minister meets his opposite number here in London, and thousands of others. Stop rolling over to the EU! will he say in public that Liu Xiaobo should be freed? He did not do so in China, which I think was contemptible, Sir George Young: I am not sure whether the hon. but now that the Chinese Premier is coming to English Gentleman was in Transport questions a few moments democratic territory, will he tell him to his face to ago when that subject was raised. release Liu Xiaobo?

Mr Skinner: I was. I tried to get in. Sir George Young: I welcome the release to which the right hon. Gentleman refers. I give him the assurance Sir George Young: If he was listening, he would have that my right hon. Friends will raise with the Chinese heard that the terms of the tender were set by the delegation the important issue of human rights, and I Government who, from time to time, he supported. His am sure that they will do so diplomatically and effectively. point about Ministers not being able to defend the proposition is wholly untrue; we defended it a few moments ago. Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): On a recent visit to an RAF station, it was highlighted to me that junior Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): The Local rank servicemen living in single room accommodation Government Boundary Commission’s review of Daventry in blocks of more than 40 still have to pay the full district has united all political parties locally and a huge television licence, even when serving abroad. With Armed number of the parishes against the proposals. Few if Forces day approaching, could we have a statement any of the views expressed in the consultation period from the relevant Minister to see whether we could have been taken into account, and I am being asked to review that situation? pray against the measure when it is placed before the House after the summer. Can the Leader of the House Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s advise me on the parliamentary routes available to me concern. There will be an opportunity to question Defence to get the Local Government Boundary Commission to Ministers on 4 July, when he might have an opportunity listen to the views of my constituents? to raise the matter during topical questions.

Sir George Young: The short answer is no, but I will Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I am also in write to my hon. Friend outlining the procedures available favour of the hereditary principle because, just like the to him to pursue this important matter. right hon. Gentleman, I come from a very long line of parents. I know he reads the Daily Mirror. Has he seen Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): May we have an today’s report that Cardiff has been listed in National urgent statement on the newly leaked plans to close Geographic magazine as one of the top 10 alternative seven of the eight HMRC offices in Wales, leading to a places to visit this summer? May we have a debate on possible 1,000 redundancies and affecting the quality tourism and the importance of promoting and publicising not only of the service in Wales generally but in particular our wonderful cities like Cardiff? of the service through the medium of Welsh provided in Porthmadog? Sir George Young: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman Sir George Young: Of course I understand the hon. risks setting up a bidding war between every Member Gentleman’s concern, which I will convey to the appropriate who believes that his or her constituency is the best one Minister and ask him to write to the hon. Gentleman as to visit for holidays, but he has achieved his objective by soon as he can. putting his views on the record. 485 Business of the House23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 486

Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): May I in Syria? The Syrian ambassador is about the Houses of urge the Leader of the House to support having a Parliament this morning. Has he been called in and told debate on the rare cancer of neuroblastoma? My that that is totally unacceptable behaviour in this country, constituent, Mr Samual Daubany-Nunn, suffers from which believes in freedom of expression and freedom of this rare cancer and has to go to Germany to get speech? treatment. Some primary care trusts fund going to Germany for treatment, but the one in my constituency Sir George Young: I am grateful to the right hon. does not do so at the moment. I really think that people Lady for raising this matter. We are indeed aware of the should be treated fairly throughout the country. reports and we are discussing them with the Metropolitan police. Any evidence of offences committed by embassy Sir George Young: I share my hon. Friend’s concern. staff—or, indeed, anybody else—against demonstrators He will know that we have put extra resources into should be reported to the police. Anybody who has any cancer treatment over the past year, but I will draw his such information should do the same. We will, of course, remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the take up with the police any information they receive Secretary of State for Health. regarding alleged offences by the Syrian or any other embassy, and we will take the appropriate action. Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab): I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What has early-day motion 1956: been the role of the Leader of the House in framing the [That this House recognises the sacrifice of the UK’s new construct for the release of Government atomic test veterans; notes that many test veterans are information—namely, a written ministerial statement, a now ill; further notes that many countries have paid press conference and then an oral statement to this compensation to ex-service personnel who were exposed House? Given your very clear pronouncement on this to atomic tests; believes that atomic test veterans fulfilled issue, Mr Speaker, will my right hon. Friend assure us their military duties in good faith; and urges the Government that this will not happen again? to make an ex-gratia payment to the UK’s atomic test veterans.] Sir George Young: On the specific issue that my hon. Friend mentions, we were following a precedent established It calls for compensation payments to atomic test veterans. by the previous Government. In December 2009, for This issue has gone on for an extremely long time. At example, Labour published its “smarter government” one time or another, we all praise the hard work of our strategy via a written ministerial statement; it was then armed forces; now is the time to turn those words into followed by a detailed speech by the then Prime Minister deeds. After all, there are not many of these veterans and an oral statement took place later in the afternoon. left and they are probably now outnumbered by lawyers. I have, of course, heard what you, Mr Speaker, said on both 14 and 21 June. I recognise that there is a balance Sir George Young: As the hon. Gentleman was good to be struck between observing the proprieties of the enough to concede, this problem has been going on for House and informing the public. I will draw the attention some time. There will be an opportunity to raise it with of my ministerial colleagues to both those rulings and Defence Ministers on 4 July. In the meantime, I will to my hon. Friend’s point. remind my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence of the concern that this matter remains outstanding Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): May we have a and urge him to do all he can to bring it to a satisfactory statement on compliance with UN resolution 1973? We conclusion. found out this week that the war in Libya is costing £0.25 billion and that this country’s military leadership Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): My hon. Friend the believe that our armed forces are overstretched in engaging Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and, this in that endeavour. May we now have a debate to find morning, the Deputy Prime Minister are calling for out why British troops are not enforcing the ceasefire on shares in Northern Rock and Lloyds, which we substantially both sides, but acting as the military wing for the rebels own, to be distributed to the British people. Given the in a civil war? interest in this proposal, may we please debate it on the Floor of the House? Sir George Young: The Government have done all they can to keep the House in the picture on Libya—and, Sir George Young: Indeed, that is one of a number of indeed, on Afghanistan and other issues. There will be options. I think the reference was to Lloyds and HBOS, an opportunity on 4 July to raise these issues again with as I think a Treasury statement about Northern Rock my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence. was made last week. It is important to have an open debate about the options available to the Government Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): when the time is right for transferring these banks to the The Leader of the House may be aware of the possibilities private sector. I cannot promise an immediate debate, for an early debate—I hope so, anyway—to discuss the but I am sure there will be opportunities, perhaps in the guidance issued under the Reservoirs Act 1975 by remaining stages of the Finance Bill, to deal with it. the Institution of Civil Engineers, as approved by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): Is the Leader of and the Environment Agency. At no stage has the the House aware that Syrians living in London are House considered this guidance, which caused the failure being threatened and intimidated by agents of the Assad of a flood defence in Pickering. May we have an early regime? Does he know that these people have been opportunity to discuss and, possibly, amend these guidance photographed and the photographs shown to their families notes? 487 Business of the House23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 488

Sir George Young: I will raise those issues with my That may seem a trivial issue, but my local authority is right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, spending £6 million a year picking up rubbish, and that Food and Rural Affairs. I cannot promise a debate. I money could be spent on educating kids or looking was concerned to learn about the incident to which my after the elderly. hon. Friend referred. She might like to apply for a debate in Westminster Hall or on the Adjournment in Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s the meantime. concern. I cannot promise a debate on this important issue, but perhaps he would like to put in for an Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): Adjournment debate so that he can expand his ideas at Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on greater length. the situation in Sudan? In recent weeks, tens of thousands of Nuba people have been displaced from their homes, Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): May I again press and we have seen the resumption of aerial bombardment the Leader of the House for a debate in Government by Khartoum. In two weeks’ time, South Sudan takes time on energy prices? He kindly suggested that I should its place in the League of Nations, but the situation is make a request to the Energy and Climate Change very fragile. May we have an opportunity to debate it in Committee, yet I am, in fact, a member, and we have the House? dealt with the issue on many occasions. Ofgem has Sir George Young: I am aware of problems in Sudan, made its proposals clear, yet prices are still rising. This following the referendum and the decision to split the issue affects every constituency, and such a debate would country. There will be an opportunity to raise this provide an opportunity for all Members to discuss it, during Foreign Office questions in the middle of next and to stop our constituents getting ripped off. month, but in the meantime I will share the hon. Gentleman’s concern with my right hon. Friend the Sir George Young: I note the hon. Gentleman’s concern. Foreign Secretary and ask him to write to him. Energy prices have risen by about 50% over the past 12 months. We have taken a number of initiatives: the Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): May we have a debate cold weather payments are being maintained at their on procedure? Politics is about choices. We have a higher level, and we also have winter fuel payments, slightly bizarre situation whereby it is possible and in Warm Front and the green deal. We are doing all we can order to draw attention to Opposition policies in debate, to reduce energy costs, particularly for poorer-income but not in questions. Surely the Opposition’s approach households, at a time of rising prices. to debt and the deficit and their proposals for unfunded VAT cuts must be a matter of parliamentary interest Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): and a matter of concern to the country. Further to the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford (Mr Evennett), Sir George Young: That may be a question that you, I welcome the announcement of 114,000 new Mr Speaker, feel better placed to answer than me. As apprenticeships and pay tribute to the Minister for my hon. Friend will know, we had an opportunity Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning for his yesterday to test the Opposition on their VAT policies sterling work on that. However, may we have a debate and, indeed, found them wanting. I am sure that you, or a statement on why so many publicly funded Mr Speaker, will have heard what my hon. Friend has organisations—such as the Charity Commission and said about the propriety of questions on Opposition the Met Office—currently offer no apprenticeships policies. whatever?

Mr Speaker: Yes. Questions are to the Government Sir George Young: I would be very grateful to my about the policies and proposals of the Government. hon. Friend if he would let me have a list of the public ’Twas ever thus and ’tis still so. bodies he thinks are not pulling their weight in offering apprenticeships, and we will, of course, then pursue the Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab): May we have matter through the appropriate Minister. an urgent debate on how to secure the future of the British train manufacturing industry, following the decision to appoint Siemens as the preferred bidder for the Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): May we Thameslink contract, which will potentially cost 3,000 jobs have a debate in Government time on what more the at Bombardier based in Derby and a further 12,000 jobs Government can do about the increase in fuel prices—they in the supply chain? This could spell the end of the have gone up by 10% in the last year, compared with an British train manufacturing industry because, come this average rise in retail prices of 5%—especially since the autumn, Bombardier’s order books are empty. fuel duty stabiliser does not seem to have cut prices at the pumps? Sir George Young: Of course I understand the concern felt in Derby about what has happened, but there has Sir George Young: As a consequence of the fuel duty just been an opportunity to ask Ministers about this stabiliser, the price of petrol at the pumps is 6p a litre issue at Transport Questions, and questions were asked, less than it would otherwise have been. We have the and answers were given. warm home discount, which amounts to £250 million a year, and the Warm Front scheme helping Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con): As this is a time when 47,000 families. We are also giving Post Office account both central and local government are short of money, I holders a discount, and as a result of the £1.9 billion ask that a Minister come to the House to explain, fuel duty package the typical Ford Focus driver will be perhaps by making a statement, how we are supporting £56 better off. We have, therefore, taken steps to try to local government and the police in pursuing litter louts. insulate people against the higher fuel prices. 489 Business of the House23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 490

Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): The National questions likely to be raised by Opposition Members. Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers—the So far as the call for a debate is concerned, the hon. RMT—is threatening, on a minority vote of its Gentleman will know that following the recommendations membership, to make travelling in London a misery of the Wright Committee a decision on a debate on over the next few weeks. May we have a debate in Wales—or London or any other part of the country—is Government time on requiring unions to secure a now a matter for the Backbench Business Committee. majority vote of their membership before they can take industrial action? Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): May we have a debate on the causes of child poverty? Members Sir George Young: I very much hope that the RMT on both sides of the House are concerned that it costs will not go ahead with the industrial dispute, which will 50p for every pound that the Child Support Agency is cause widespread disruption in London. I am aware of able to get to children, and that the arrears are £3.8 billion. my hon. Friend’s views on changing the law—and, We could also talk about the provision in the Welfare indeed, those of the Mayor of London. We have said Reform Bill that gives parents much greater incentive to that we plan to keep the industrial relations legislation work and therefore lift their households out of poverty, under review, but as of now we have no plans to including their children. change it. Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): I Sir George Young: My hon. Friend is right: children thank the Leader of the House for persuading his growing up in households where a generation or more colleagues at the Department for Communities and has not worked is a real issue. I think I am right in Local Government to see sense over the ridiculous plan saying that the Work programme is the UK’s single to impose a shadow executive mayor on Birmingham. biggest employment support programme. I hope it will May we now have a debate on the equally ridiculous help to end the cycle of worklessness that has blighted plan to make the people of Birmingham pay for the many families, and all out-of-work benefit customers Government’s referendum at a time when their budgets will be able to access the programme at a time that is are being cut to the bone? right for them.

Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman is referring Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): to the Localism Bill, which is now in another place, and The Prime Minister is currently in Brussels attending to a number of Government amendments to it. If he the European Council meeting trying to prevent a crisis has colleagues in the other place who share his concerns across Europe which would make Lehman Brothers in respect of Birmingham, there will be an opportunity look like a small event. The House again did not have a to press the Government further on the second issue debate ahead of the European Council, however. I that he raised. know that the Leader of the House thinks that this is John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): On 12 October last year, Back-Bench business. If that is so, may we have a debate I had the privilege of a visit from the public health on what he thinks is Front-Bench business? Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), to Porton Down in my constituency, Sir George Young: In a nutshell, Front-Bench business when she said she hoped a decision about the future is the Government’s programme of legislation. There location of that facility would be made by the end of was a statement about Greece on Monday, and I know the year. I raised this matter in the House on 11 March, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister will want to yet we are still no clearer. Does the Leader of the House keep the House in the picture on what happens at the agree that the time has now come for the Government European Council. The question of the House having a to make a statement and thereby address the uncertainty debate before European Council meetings is, as the hon. felt by the large number of my constituents who work at Lady knows, a matter for the Backbench Business Porton Down? Committee.

Sir George Young: As I am my hon. Friend’s constituency Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): This morning, the neighbour and constituents of mine also work at Porton Secretary of State for Transport announced that he was Down, I understand the concern felt locally about this looking into the impact of the European Union matter. I will raise my hon. Friend’s concerns with the procurement regulations and how France and Germany relevant health Minister in order to try to discover the manage to procure their trains from their own domestic timetable for this decision. manufacturers, yet we seem to be unable to do so. Given Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): The Leader of the the great interest that there will be in such a review, may House will be aware that his colleague the Secretary of we have a statement or a debate so that the Secretary of State for Wales has failed in the last 13 months in that State can hear the full views of the House on this job to say a single word from the Dispatch Box about controversial issue? Wales, save at Wales Questions. Will he prevail upon her to try to raise her subterranean profile in this House, Sir George Young: I understand the concern that is and secure a debate in Government time on matters of felt on both sides of the House about the procurement importance to the people of Wales? process for rolling stock and engines. I wonder whether the best way to proceed might be to have a debate on the Sir George Young: I have the good fortune to sit next final day before the recess, if the Backbench Business to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales Committee decides to have a series of Adjournment at Wales Questions, and I would have thought that 15 or debates, or for a Member to apply for an Adjournment 30 minutes would be sufficient time to deal with all the debate in the Chamber or Westminster Hall. 491 Business of the House23 JUNE 2011 Business of the House 492

Bridget Phillipson (Houghton and Sunderland South) 114,000 in the previous year—more than double what (Lab): My constituent Joe Arthur was attacked, and we set out to do. That is the right way to provide a subsequently died, while on holiday in Corfu in 2006. sound platform for long-term economic prosperity. Five years on, the three individuals connected to his death are still awaiting trial in Greece. Mr Arthur’s Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East family have received exceptional support from Northumbria Cleveland) (Lab): May we have a debate on the Floor of police, but they want justice. Can the Leader of the the House about why the Government have decided to House arrange for me to meet a Foreign Office Minister stop publishing time to pay statistics in July and whether to discuss the case and see what further assistance can this is the beginning of the end of time to pay? be offered to the family? Sir George Young: I will make suitable inquiries and Sir George Young: I am very sorry to learn of the write to the hon. Gentleman about time to pay. death of the hon. Lady’s constituent. Of course I will contact a ministerial colleague at the Foreign and Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Notwithstanding Commonwealth Office to arrange a meeting for the yesterday’s Opposition day debate, may we have a specific hon. Lady. debate on tax so that we can, among other things, consider the shadow Chancellor’s proposal for a £12 billion Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): May I, too, highlight unfunded tax cut, on which all Members, but perhaps the importance of human rights and human dignity, by members of the shadow Cabinet in particular, might drawing to the attention of the House the fate of the appreciate the chance to have an opinion? Baha’i religious community in Iran? May we have a debate to underline the importance of concerted action Sir George Young: We all enjoyed yesterday’s debate to promote human rights, as the Helsinki accords of in which my right hon. Friend the Chancellor trounced 1975 did for people in eastern Europe in the following the shadow Chancellor on his economic strategy. The decades? Opposition have left their tax cut open-ended and unfunded. They have not given any definition of what constitutes Sir George Young: Persecution of any individual on “growing strongly again” and would simply be adding the grounds of their religious faith is unacceptable. I am £51 billion to the deficit at the end of this Parliament. aware of the problems faced by the Baha’i community in Iran. The FCO makes regular representations on this matter here, and we also make representations to the Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): May we have a Iranian Government so that this persecution can be statement on the accountability of the Government on brought to an end. women and equalities? Today, an oral question on the impact on women of the increases in fees for courses in Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): In south Wales English as a second language was transferred to the over the past three years the theft of metal from Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. The train lines has cost £3 million. Last year alone, there Department has form on this: on 3 March, I raised in were 84 instances of cable theft in our area, leading to questions to the Leader of the House the fact that train journey delays. May we have a debate on this questions on women and pensions had been transferred. issue, which is making the lives of train commuters How can we hold the Government to account given that miserable? we have only quarter of an hour for questions and no topical questions and given that questions specifically about the impact of Government policies on women are Sir George Young: I will draw the hon. Gentleman’s ducked by the Ministers responsible for women’s policies? comments to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport, who will no doubt want to contact the British Transport police to see Sir George Young: I say to the hon. Lady that we have whether more effective action can be taken to deter adopted precisely the same arrangements for questions these sorts of thefts and bring the criminals to justice. about women as we inherited from the outgoing Government. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Further to the questions of my hon. Friends the Members for Bexleyheath Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I have and Crayford (Mr Evennett) and for North East been delighted by the response to my ten-minute rule Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) does the Leader of Bill to ban smoking in cars when children are present, the House agree that a debate on apprenticeships but I am aware that despite support from across the would be a suitable birthday present for the Minister House and the country, the chances of the Bill getting a for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning, further detailed hearing are very slim. Will the Leader whose birthday it is today, given the massive increase of the House therefore provide time for a full debate on in apprenticeships that was announced this morning? the Floor of the House so that the topic can be aired in much greater detail? Sir George Young: By a miracle, my hon. Friend the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Sir George Young: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman Learning is now in his place and will have heard those on having got a Second Reading for his Bill yesterday wishes for a happy birthday, which I am sure are but I would be misleading him if I said that there shared by hon. Members on both sides. I pay tribute was any time within the Government’s programme to to him for what he has been doing. It is a substantial adopt it. However, there will be an opportunity in the achievement to have delivered 326,700 apprenticeships next Session for him to apply for a private Member’s in the first nine months of this academic year and Bill slot. 493 Business of the House 23 JUNE 2011 494

Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): May we have a debate Points of Order on the solving of conundrums? Or perhaps the Leader of the House could solve one for me. The latest figures 12.25 pm show that, at the moment, for every job available in the Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): On a point of Rhondda there are 84 people seeking that job, whereas order, Mr Speaker. I notice that the hon. Member for in his constituency of North West Hampshire there are The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) is the lead Member on only two people seeking each available job. So far as I one of the motions we are debating later, but yesterday can understand the Department for Work and Pensions’ a pager message was sent out to Conservative MPs view on all this, the way to resolve the situation is for cancelling all leave and requiring them to come and everybody from my constituency to move to his vote against the Back-Bench motion this afternoon. Is constituency. The vast majority of my constituents own there any way that the hon. Gentleman, who is a their own home, but their homes are not worth the kind Conservative Member of Parliament, can be forced by of money they would need to buy a home in his the Conservative Whips to withdraw or vote against his constituency, so what are my constituents to do to try to own motion, and what would happen in those get into work? circumstances? Sir George Young: The hon. Gentleman’s constituents Mr Speaker: First of all, I do not entertain hypothetical would always be very welcome in North West Hampshire, questions. Secondly, that is not a point of order and, but I understand the issue he raises. I think that the thirdly, I say—with an audible sigh of relief—that I am answer to his question is the Work programme, which is not responsible for the conduct of the Whips. the biggest and most ambitious work programme ever Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): On a point of to get people back into work. In addition, the Government order, Mr Speaker. You will have heard my question to are taking steps to build long-term, sustainable recovery, the Leader of the House about the accountability of the which I am sure will reach south Wales as fast it reaches Government on women and equalities matters. He said anywhere else. that the arrangements had not changed at all, but I dispute that. I do not believe that the previous Government Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): May we ever transferred oral questions on women and equalities have a Government statement on the Government’s to other Government Departments—and certainly not plans to mark the 100th anniversary in 2014 of the with the frequency that this Government are doing so. beginning of the first world war? I visited Belgium a few Is there something that you can do to protect the rights weeks ago, as a member of the Commonwealth War of Back Benchers to hold the Government to account Graves Commission, and the other commissioners and on issues of women and equalities? At present, we do I were briefed on the extensive work going on there. not have a Select Committee, we have only 15 minutes That contrasts with the confusion in the UK, where it for questions, there are no topical questions and Ministers appears that a decision is yet to be taken on whether the are not answering questions if they do not like them. Ministry of Defence or the Department for Culture, Media and Sport will take the lead on that anniversary. Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order and for advance notice of her intention Sir George Young: I share the hon. Gentleman’s to raise it. She has put her views very firmly and concern that we should commemorate this anniversary explicitly on the record. There is very little I can do properly. As a former Minister in the MOD, he will have about this matter, but let me say to her that I have a good background to this matter. I will raise it with considerable sympathy with Members who seek to ask MOD Ministers to make sure that we take appropriate oral questions on what might be described as cross-cutting action to commemorate this important anniversary. subjects. As she and the House are aware, transfers are a matter for the Government, but I am sure that her point of order will have been noted. When a Member tables an orderly question to a Department in respect of that Department’s responsibilities, it is unfortunate if it is transferred and we need to keep an eye on the matter. The hon. Lady should seek the advice of the Table Office before the next oral questions to the Minister for Women and Equalities. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to the point that was raised in questions to the Leader of the House by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), there is still the remaining issue of how to deal with the fact that the Government are regularly briefing the press before briefing the House of Commons. [Interruption.] Many of us also deprecated it when it was done by the Labour Government. I realise that it is very difficult for you to exercise any direct powers in relation to the Government, but this is a question not only of supply but of demand. Might I suggest that any journalist whom you find has written an article saying, “Tomorrow, the Government will announce that…” should have their pass withdrawn so that they cannot work in the House any longer? 495 Points of Order 23 JUNE 2011 496

Mr Speaker: Let me say to the hon. Gentleman, who is a very experienced Member of the House, that it is Backbench Business extremely naughty of him to tempt me in that way. I think he should be careful about such an approach. The [29TH ALLOTTED DAY] wider point he raises has been raised a number of times in the past couple of weeks. I have made my views about Transport Committee (Coastguard) it extremely clear in the House and in the conversations that inevitably take place about these matters. I think it 12.30 pm is extremely important that the responsibility of Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): Government to explain and answer first to Parliament I beg to move, is accepted and that effect is given to it. It would be very That this House notes the publication of the Sixth Report unfortunate if a regular pattern of the kind that the from the Transport Select Committee on The Coastguard, Emergency hon. Gentleman has been complaining about were to Towing Vessels and the Maritime Incident Response Group, develop. If, in extremis, this were to continue to happen, HC 948. and as a consequence the Government’s own business I am delighted to present the Transport Committee’s were to be damaged or lost as a result of what might be report on the Floor of the House, and I thank the described as retaliatory action, that would of course be Backbench Business Committee for giving me this very unfortunate. opportunity. It is an encouraging development for the House and I hope that it will continue to be utilised for other key Select Committee reports. This report warrants being presented here today because there has been so much interest across the House and from many members of the public about the future of the coastguard service. It is fair to say that the overwhelming view of Members, from all parties and regardless of whether their constituency happens to include a coastguard centre, has been deep concern about the proposals. The report looks at the three areas addressed by the Government: first, the plans for the drastic closure of coastguard co-ordination centres; secondly, the withdrawal of the Government’s funding for emergency towing vehicles; and, thirdly, the removal of Government funding for the specialist firefighting service at sea. We received a great deal of written evidence from serving and volunteer coastguards, all of which was critical of the Government’s proposals, and most of which was highly critical. Unfortunately, most coastguards were prohibited by the Government from giving oral evidence to the Committee; we criticise that decision in our report. However, we were able to visit the coastguard centres at Falmouth, Clyde and Stornoway, and I am sure that my colleagues on the Committee agree that those visits proved invaluable in learning about the operation of the centres at first hand and enabling us to speak to serving and volunteer coastguards about their concerns, although those were informal discussions rather than official evidence. Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab): I congratulate the Committee and my hon. Friend as its Chair on an excellent report. I think the Government will take notice of it, because they said they would wait for the report and act on its conclusions. Does my hon. Friend agree that had coastguards across the United Kingdom had an opportunity for input as to the future of the service, MPs’ debates would have had a different tone? More important, are not the proposals a way forward for the Government, not a way out, and must they not include input from all coastguards? Mrs Ellman: We were extremely critical of how the proposals were put together, excluding any opportunity for input from serving coastguards. Our report is unanimous. We recognise that modernisation of the coastguard is desirable. We see the coastguard as an essential emergency service, whose work load is increasing, and any proposals to restructure the service must not be made in haste. 497 Transport Committee (Coastguard)23 JUNE 2011 Transport Committee (Coastguard) 498

Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): Does Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I the hon. Lady agree that willingness to listen and change thank our Chairman for giving way. Does she agree that policy is a sign of strength, as the Prime Minister regardless of how many coastguard stations we end up asserted at this week’s press conference? My regional with, it is vital that existing stations are open 24 hours a paper emphasised that point today in an article which day to ensure operational continuity when there is an concluded that the consequences would be counted in incident? lives lost. Mrs Ellman: The hon. Gentleman played an important Mrs Ellman: The hon. Lady makes an important part in producing the report and, like the Committee, I point. Our concern is about the saving of lives. The agree that 24-hour stations should be the way forward. Government have indeed stated that they are listening; The Committee expresses serious concerns about the the test will in part be their reaction to our report. concept of daylight-only stations. The proposals assume that technology can replace local knowledge, but we The Committee cannot support the Government’s were not convinced and think that that puts lives at risk. proposals for the future of the coastguard in their To refer again to his comments, we are not convinced current form, and we call on the Government to withdraw that the proposal for daylight-only stations should be them. The evidence that we received raised serious proceeded with. concerns that safety would be jeopardised if the proposals proceeded. That is why we call on the Government to Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): I, withdraw them and issue revised plans that address the too, congratulate my hon. Friend and her Committee points that we have raised. Those proposals should be on their excellent report. I have visited the Solent coastguard substantially different from those that have been offered, station, which would be the radio centre for most of the and they should be subject to a further short period of country under the proposals, and it was clear that it consultation. would be difficult to achieve local knowledge on the basis of those radio arrangements. Does my hon. Friend Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): I congratulate agree that even the stations that will be saved under the the hon. Lady on her report. One of the most devastating proposals face inadequate operating arrangements, of her recommendations was: particularly in terms of local knowledge and radio “It appears to us that the current proposals pay more attention communication? to the MCA’s statutory obligations towards the commercial shipping industry and far less to its obligations towards leisure craft and Mrs Ellman: I agree with my hon. Friend’s comments. small boat users. Accidents involving commercial vessels represent only a small proportion of all those that the Coastguard manage.” The concern about local knowledge or, perhaps more broadly, situational knowledge cannot be emphasised enough. Our concern in that respect relates not only to Mrs Ellman: The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely the coastguard officers themselves, but to the volunteer important point; we noted that although the proposals coastguard. When we conducted our inquiry, particularly appeared to address the commercial shipping sector to when we visited the coastguard stations, we were struck some degree, they seemed to ignore smaller vessels and by the amount of teamworking, which is essential. We the fishing industry. We were extremely concerned about were concerned that the proposals would endanger that that omission. teamworking. To refer to the point made by the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), I stress again Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): I congratulate the importance of considering the safety of leisure craft the hon. Lady and the Committee on an excellent and small fishing vessels, as well as the commercial report that raises a number of alarming concerns about sector, and we felt that that part of shipping was omitted both coastguards and emergency towing vessels, about from consideration in producing the proposals. which I am particularly worried and which she describes as “inviting disaster”. Given that the proposals were Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con): I am started under the previous Government and have taken grateful to the hon. Lady, who is the Chair of the a while to reach this stage under the current Government, Committee. I, too, gained a great deal from visiting the does she agree that the Government should take their three stations—Falmouth, Greenock and Stornoway—and time to work out proper proposals? They do not have to what struck me particularly was the willingness of the rush into things. serving officers there to adapt and move forward. They do not necessarily wish to keep the status quo, but they Mrs Ellman: The hon. Gentleman makes an important want to be properly involved and to tap into their vast point. I will talk about emergency towing vehicles shortly; experience in shaping a sensible way forward. I accept his point that decisions about human life should not be made in haste. Mrs Ellman: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his Our major concern is about safety and the loss of comments. He played an active part in drafting our local knowledge, or “situational awareness”, among proposals, and I certainly agree with what he says. coastguard officers which will inevitably occur under Indeed, our Committee is asking the Government not the proposals. Reducing the number of full-time maritime just to withdraw their current proposals, but to introduce rescue co-ordination centres so drastically, from 18 to alternatives and, in doing so, to consider the alternative three, with five centres operating in daytime only, and proposals that have been submitted by coastguard officers completely closing 10 centres, would reduce the quality across the country. and rate of exchange of information, particularly at I should like to refer now to the proposals on the critical points when it must be passed swiftly to save withdrawal of funding for emergency towing vessels—the lives. tugs that are there to prevent major pollution incidents. 499 Transport Committee (Coastguard) 23 JUNE 2011 500

[Mrs Ellman] Congenital Cardiac Services for Children

That decision for change was made against the findings 12.45 pm of an independent risk assessment, and we consider it unwise and short-sighted; it is quite literally inviting Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): I beg to move, disaster. Our evidence strongly suggests that no suitable That this House notes the review led by the Joint Committee of commercial alternative exists to replace the current Primary Care Trusts into the reconfiguration of children’s heart arrangements. We urge the Government to reverse their surgery; welcomes its aim of establishing a more sustainable decision to terminate the provision of emergency towing provision of congenital cardiac services in England which has strong support from professional associations and patient groups; vehicles by the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, although notes that concerns have been expressed during consultation on we welcome efforts to find alternative sources of funding the proposals; calls on the review to take full account of accurate to help to fund such procedures. assessed travel and population projections, the views of ethnic The third part of the Government’s proposals concerns minority communities affected, evidence supporting the co-location the withdrawal of Government financial support for of children’s services, and the need for patients and their families the firefighting service at sea—the maritime incident to access convenient services; and therefore calls on the Joint Committee not to restrict itself to the four options outlined in the response group, which is funded by the Government review but instead to consider further options in making its final and firefighting authorities. We are extremely concerned recommendations. that the Government have withdrawn their funding I thank the Backbench Business Committee for allowing from that service and appear to expect the local fire and us the opportunity to hold this valuable debate. I apologise rescue authorities to fund it themselves. It is a national to the Committee and the Clerks for taking so long to firefighting service, and we consider it unreasonable to table the motion, but I feel passionate that it is right to expect the local fire services to fund it, particularly at get a motion that has the effect that we want. I have this time of financial constraint. Our concern is that, if probably learned more this week than in the past year, the burden was put entirely on the local fire and rescue and if I have not got it right, I am sorry. I also thank the authorities, that excellent service would cease to exist. hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin) and my hon. The service is extremely important; not only is it to do Friends the Members for Oxford West and Abingdon with firefighting, but it is deals with chemical hazards. I (Nicola Blackwood), for Leeds North West (Greg ask the Government to remember how important that Mulholland) and for Winchester (Mr Brine), who have is and what the consequences of withdrawing the service helped me through the past week. could be. This debate is timely, as the consultation by the Taken together, the proposed changes to the coastguard review of children’s heart surgery around the country service, with the drastic closure of coastguard co-ordination will come to an end soon. I completely agree with and centres and the possible loss of emergency towing vehicles support the professionals and patients who say that the and the maritime incident response group, represent a review of congenital cardiac services is needed. Of significant restructuring of the country’s marine search course, we all want what is best for our children, and we and rescue and accident and pollution prevention want the best centres in the world. It is absolutely right capabilities. It is deeply regrettable that the Department and necessary that we learn from past mistakes in other for Transport announced all three sets of proposals units, but serious concerns about the process have been with no prior consultation whatsoever and did not raised with me by clinicians and parents. I believe that it consider their combined impact on safety. Although is my duty and that of others to scrutinise the review if this cross-party Committee recognises the pressure on we feel that there are problems. the Government to make financial savings and the need to modernise and use new technology, we simply cannot There have been accusations that this has been turned support proposals that reduce maritime safety in that into a political campaign. I stress that I have been keen way. not to make this a political campaign, and I have been incredibly impressed by the cross-party support of the Albert Owen: Does my hon. Friend agree that any Members from across the country who have been helping future proposal should be made in an oral statement to us. We will hear from other Members from all over the the House, so that Members on both sides have an country—the debate is not just about the unit in Leeds—but opportunity to ask questions on that initial statement? I want to highlight the fact that my concerns relate to the review and not just to one centre. Although I will Mrs Ellman: My hon. Friend makes an important naturally refer to Leeds to highlight examples, I am sure point. New proposals should enable the widest possible that other Members will highlight similar problems consultation, including the involvement of hon. Members. with the review and relate them to their units. I am keen that the campaign does not set one centre against I call on the Government to withdraw their proposals another, but that they are all considered equally. and to produce alternatives that address the concerns that we have identified. I present the report to the I want first to deal with what I perceive as the flaws in House. the review. That is my main concern. From speaking to patients and families, I know that that has made them Question put and agreed to. lose confidence in the review. We would all agree that public confidence in the review is important. The review has stated that the objective is to have centres that perform 400 procedures a year. The first version of the pre-consultation business case showed that patients from Doncaster and Sheffield would travel to Birmingham. That is absolutely right and in line with advice from the Yorkshire and Humber specialised commissioners, but 501 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 502 Children Children in version 2 and the consultation options, the flow had How we care for all those families is also important. changed to Newcastle. I understand that that helps the When I worked at Martin House children’s hospice, it Newcastle figures, but I and anyone else who knows the was not just the care of the poorly child, but the care of area would surely question the likelihood of that happening. the whole family, that was important. When people Far more plausible is that people would go to Birmingham have a very poorly child, they want their family to be or Leicester. What happens to Newcastle then? In addition, together. It has been said that parents will travel anywhere. one of the options—the 400 minimum procedures—is Of course they will, but does that mean that we should not even met. The JCPCT explains that that is due to make them travel, when there could be alternatives? new patient flows. The Yorkshire and Humber congenital cardiac network At a number of centres, activity has increased in the board has a well- established network model, is regarded past year. For example, Leeds is now doing 370 procedures as an exemplar in this country and is held in high regard a year, but in the pre-consultation assessment it was not across the region by both the professionals and the afforded the same consideration as other centres that patients involved in the service. Although this was recognised carry out similar numbers of procedures. Furthermore, by Sir Ian Kennedy’s expert panel and Leeds Teaching the health impact assessment had not been completed Hospital Trust was awarded the maximum score for before the final options were presented for consultation. networks in that assessment, the JCPCT, as part of the The independent company undertaking that work said scoring of options for future configuration of centres, that this was not the usual approach taken in large gave all potential networks the same score. It is unclear reconfiguration proposals. That means that the public why a proven track record of delivering an exemplary will have no access to the findings during the consultation network model was not considered an important factor period. in the ability to deliver this across a larger population and greater geographical spread in the future. An issue that affects the black and minority ethnic community is that until 24 May the consultation On the requirement for a minimum of 400 operations, questionnaire was available only in English and Welsh. Leeds delivered 316 cardiac operations in the 0 to As a Welsh speaker, I approve of having a Welsh version, 16-year-old group in 2009-10 and 372 in 2010-11. The but it was not until 12 weeks after the consultation process of recruiting a fourth surgeon is under way. By began that the questionnaire became available in other the time the review’s recommendations are implemented, languages, leaving just five weeks for the community to Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust will deliver the minimum respond. In Leeds, more than 20% of the patients come number of operations, which is 400, and the minimum from the BME community, so this is an important issue number of surgeons, which is four, that the standards that needs to be addressed. require from within the current population base. Equally, Leeds Teaching Hospital Trust has provided detailed Finally, on the flaws, yesterday when the Safe and information to the Safe and Sustainable team for expansion Sustainable team were here, we heard them say that of the current service, should it be required to deliver a co-location of services, in their view, meant anything up change in capacity to support patients from a centre to 10 minutes away, yet the British Congenital Cardiac that does not get designation. Association issued a statement on 18 February 2011, two days after the release of the business case, to clarify The review said yesterday that the debate is not about its professional view of the importance of co-location. I current services. It is about what will be provided in the believe this demonstrates the BCCA’s dissatisfaction future. The figures that I have cited show that Leeds’ with the review’s interpretation of co-location. case for being a centre caring for more than 400 patients is strong. Many patients and particularly clinicians have pointed out to me that it seems odd that we are having a Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): My hon. review of children’s heart services without referring to Friend refers to a meeting of the steering group with adult services. Many of those patients will be the same: MPs yesterday. Does he agree that it was a slightly those children will grow up, and the doctors who perform strange meeting and that there was a significant degree the operations are often the same people caring for both of defensiveness on the part of the steering group? groups, so why are we not looking at adult services now? It has been suggested that that review should Stuart Andrew: That is a very good description of the come later, but if we have made decisions about children’s meeting. I agree with my hon. Friend. If nothing else, it heart surgery, surely we have pre-empted what might is good that this debate got the review board to come to happen in the future. Parliament and speak to MPs so that we could express our concerns. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): I thank On the case for Leeds specifically, as I said a moment my hon. Friend and neighbour for giving way. Going ago, co-location of services is considered crucial by the slightly further on his last point, does he realise that if BCCA. In Leeds we have one of the largest children’s those surgeons are no longer there, they will not be able hospitals in the country. A considerable amount of time to perform operations on adults? Adult surgery would has been spent bringing all the children’s services under be very detrimentally affected. one roof at Leeds general infirmary. The centre serves a population of 5.5 million. I cannot understand why the Stuart Andrew: I could not agree more. My hon. option has not been considered for Leeds when it has Friend is right; if we have a review of children’s cardiac been considered for centres in Birmingham and Liverpool. services, surely we must consider what will happen to Yorkshire has a growing population and a growing adult services. We should be talking about that now. BME community. As I said, 20% of the patients come I could go on much longer and talk about the cases of from that community. It is crucial that we take account various parents whom I have met, but I know that other of population numbers when considering the review. hon. Members will do that, probably far more eloquently 503 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 504 Children Children [Stuart Andrew] joint statement by the Royal College of Surgeons and the Society for Cardiothoracic Surgery, in which they than I could. I am keen that the motion is supported strongly support the concentration of treatment centres. because I want it to send a clear message to the review They state: team that we are asking it to consider all the points that “England has the right number of heart surgeons treating rare are made today and all the points that have been made heart conditions in children, but we do know that they are thinly by the campaigns across the country. It was a privilege spread over too many units. A better service would be provided if to go to Downing street the other day with children, this expertise were condensed in fewer units with the critical patients and clinicians from the Leeds centre to present number of staff to support each other, disseminate new techniques a petition of more than 500,000 names. That is a and train the next generation of specialists.” significant petition by anybody’s standards and a credit They believe that the proposals to that campaign. “will result in rapid and significant improvement in treatment for I am concerned that after consideration of the some of the most vulnerable patients treated by the NHS.” consultation responses, it will be difficult to respond to We should give great weight to that unequivocal statement. all the evidence by pigeon-holing them into the four The joint statement went on to suggest—this brings options in the review. That is why our motion today me to my third point—that: urges the joint committee not to restrict itself to those “The benefits of undertaking this change, however, need to be four options and instead to think outside the box, as balanced against longer journeys for some families”. they say. Let us look at a different proposal that delivers That, along with quality, is a matter of great concern on the services and the quality that we want and also takes both sides of the House, and certainly in Oxfordshire. It account of all the responses that we have received. was also stressed by the Oxfordshire joint health overview Finally, I want to pay a personal tribute to all the and scrutiny committee and the YoungHearts campaign families and campaigners, especially in Yorkshire and in relation to the implications for patients in our area if the Humber. In all the campaigning that I have ever any option other than option B, which is to retain the done, I have never seen such a well organised and centre at the Southampton University Hospital NHS dedicated campaign. The subject is sometimes emotional, Trust, is chosen. As today’s Oxford Mail editorial states: but the responses that have come from patients across “If Southampton loses out in the Government shake up of Yorkshire shows that there can be an alternative that children’s heart services, then so does Oxford.” delivers the services that we want. I hope the House will The benefits of this option, and in particular of support the motion. retaining the Southampton centre, lie not only in the fact that the Kennedy review ranks Southampton highest Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): As hon. Members in the country outside London for quality, but that the can see, this is a popular debate. There is, therefore, a Oxford Radcliffe Hospitals NHS Trust has developed a six-minute limit on contributions. joint network of care with Southampton, enabling local children who have surgery in Southampton to receive 12.59 pm follow-up care and support services in the excellent Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab): I congratulate facilities at the Oxford children’s hospital and to be able the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on to progress as they grow older to the Oxford heart introducing the motion and arguing his case so powerfully. centre, thereby maintaining continuity of care, which The debate shows the value of Back Bench-initiated the hon. Gentleman rightly said was so important in the topics, which has enabled the House to speak out on an relationship between children’s services and adult services. issue of enormous concern to the public, as demonstrated I very much hope that this south of England congenital by the petition he referred to and by the Southern Daily heart network, with Southampton and Oxford working Echo petition of nearly 250,000 signatures that was closely together, will be part of the option that is finally taken to Downing street earlier this week in support of chosen. the Southampton centre, which is mainly what I want to That network does not figure in the present options, speak about. I will make just a few key points, as many but I welcome the news in today’s briefing from Safe Members wish to speak. and Sustainable that a specialist team is examining it. First, I want to praise the work done in the existing The need for this flexibility is a key reason why I centres, including the John Radcliffe hospital in my support the call in the motion for the joint committee constituency, which commands fantastic support from not to restrict itself narrowly to the options set out in the parents of children who have been treated there. the original review. As Young Hearts has pointed out, it The Young Hearts organisation, which was set up to is important to consider the children needing paediatric support parents of children with heart conditions in cardiac services who were not born with a heart defect Oxfordshire, has been leading a great campaign, rightly but who have suffered a virus or accident requiring paying moving tributes to the skill and dedication of cardiac treatment. The Oxford-Southampton partnership surgeons, doctors, nurses and whole medical teams who will retain ready access to the skills and facilities needed have saved children’s lives and to whom we all owe a for that care. debt of thanks. That form of partnership network, with collaboration Secondly, as the hon. Gentleman noted, a key concern between a surgical centre and another cardiac care in the debate, and in considering the Safe and Sustainable centre, offers a good model for other parts of the review, must be to secure the best possible treatments country. It enables us to ensure that children have the and outcomes for children with congenital and other benefit of both the critical mass of surgery, which heart conditions. We must be guided by medical and surgeons advise can significantly and rapidly improve research expertise, which few of us in this place are in a treatment, and more convenient access to related services position to second-guess. I am therefore mindful of the and continuing care nearer their homes. Surely that is 505 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 506 Children Children the outcome that we all want. I very much hope that the solution, the more personal, professional and political interests review and the Government will take it forward, with conspire to perpetuate mediocrity and inhibit the pursuit of the Southampton-Oxford partnership being the best excellence… For too long this has been filed in the ‘too difficult’ way to retain high-quality and accessible services for box. Time is running out.” central southern England. Those words should ring loud in our ears as we debate the subject this afternoon. 1.5 pm We should recognise that the whole issue of child Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): Like the heart surgery has form in the history of the national right hon. Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith), I health service. It is now over a decade since Sir Ian congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey Kennedy published his review of circumstances that (Stuart Andrew) on introducing the motion, which is of illustrate what can go tragically wrong when things are huge importance to my constituents and to the national allowed to drift on and when real issues are not addressed. health service. In contributing to the debate, I have two Although I am of course here as a Member representing hats. First, I represent the village of Glenfield. Glenfield my constituents’ interests, I think that the key priority hospital is actually in the neighbouring constituency of for the House this afternoon is to support the principle the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Leicester that this issue must be decided in the interests of the West (Liz Kendall), but it takes its name from the children who are the patients and who will become the village in my constituency. Secondly, I am Chair of the adult patients, and in a way that satisfies the key driver Health Committee. The Committee has not approached of the pursuit of excellence in clinical standards. the subject specifically, because we have been looking at I welcome the fact that the previous Government set a number of other matters, but we have so far published up the review to ensure that we addressed the issues that two reports on commissioning, which is precisely at the had been left to drift on for too long since the Bristol heart of today’s debate. heart review a decade ago, and I wholeheartedly endorse In a sense, I personalise the conflict that every Member the view, expressed by Sir Bruce in today’s Times, that feels between the constituency interest and the national the time to act is now. interest, and in this case I do so in a particularly As a local MP, I wonder what the effect is on Leicester dramatic form, as one of the surgical units involved is of this drive to a decision. I have already referred to the closely associated with my constituency. My first point fact that I am not in an uncomfortable position, because is that that conflict exists for all Members. We are of on page 93 the review states: course here to represent our constituents’ interests, but I “Option 2”— argue that we are here first and foremost as Members of a national Parliament and should seek, as my hon. which became option A— Friend the Member for Pudsey recognises, the right “is viable as it is consistently the highest scoring potential option.” answer for all NHS patients, not simply for a particular The review’s recommendation is that the process go local interest. ahead based on option A, and that is convenient from the point of view of the person arguing the case that I Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I wish to make a very do, but I conclude that if anyone wants to argue for an small point because the right hon. Gentleman used the alternative outcome, it behoves them, particularly in word “national”. Many of the services we are considering view of the history of this issue in the national health are also used by Welsh and Scottish constituents, so it is service, to present a coherent, whole argument for how important to ensure that there is that communication their solution represents a better solution for the patients between the different elements. of those services, while reflecting, of course, the local interest of the people we are elected to represent. Mr Dorrell: I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s point. My hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey said that this is not a political issue, by which he meant that it is not a 1.12 pm party political issue. That is exactly right, but issues can Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): be political without being party political. It is important It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for that the House, in approaching the subject, makes it Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) in debate, something that I clear that the issue should ultimately be resolved according have not done for 15 years in this place, and as ever to clinical standards, not as a form of political bartering, I agree with the broad thrust of what he has said. I whether party political or through the general representation welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate of local interests. about the Safe and Sustainable review. I want to make I am in the happy situation, personalising, as I do, the two points about the case for the review itself and the conflict between local and national interests, that the case for children’s cardiac care at the Freeman hospital specialist group has recommended a solution that accords in my constituency. with my constituents’ views, but I think that in approaching The review of paediatric cardiac services in England the subject it is important to be clear about the ladder and Wales was instigated in 2008 under the previous of interest: we should approach this from the point of Government. It was instigated not by them, not by the view of national standards for the service delivery. We civil service but by the health care professionals themselves. of course should represent the views of our constituents, There were two previous reviews, in 2000 and 2003, but we should be clear that the national view should recommending the establishment of fewer, larger cardiac come first. surgical centres; in 2006, a national workshop of experts Writing in The Times today, Sir Bruce Keogh, the concluded that the current configuration was unsustainable; medical director of the NHS, states: in 2007, the Royal College of Surgeons called for the “Intellectually, the case for change is compelling and widely concentration of surgical expertise in fewer, larger surgical accepted. Sadly, the realpolitik is that the closer we get to a centres. 507 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 508 Children Children [Mr Nicholas Brown] as nationally commissioned services are concerned. As well as with Scotland, the Freeman hospital has well The 2008 exercise has been carried out on behalf of established connections with Northern Ireland and with the 10 specialised commissioning groups in England the Republic of Ireland, and although I recognise that and their primary care trusts. The clinical case for the this was not formally part of the review team’s remit, I exercise is pretty formidable: clinical outcomes are better welcome its decision to invite observers from Scotland at high-volume centres; it is undesirable that surgical and Northern Ireland to its deliberations. expertise is spread too thinly, because apart from anything My final point echoes the point that the right hon. else it mitigates against the provision of 24-hour surgical Member for Charnwood, the Health Committee Chair cover; the increasing complexity of what can be achieved made, and it is this: I welcome the effort made by the argues for fewer specialist centres; it is easier for fewer review team and its sponsors to meet MPs yesterday in units with larger case loads to retain surgeons and to the House. They made an impressive case for the review develop expertise; and strong leadership from surgical itself, and for the thorough and detailed way they have centres underpins non-surgical cardiology care in local gone about it. We are constituency representatives, each hospitals. trying to do our best for the communities we represent. Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Will my Having said that, I believe we should think very carefully right hon. Friend give way? before trying to impose our political judgments—based on support for the constituencies that we represent—over Mr Nicholas Brown: If my hon. Friend will forgive the judgments of the health care professionals who have me, I will not. studied the issues in detail and spoken so clearly about There is strong clinical support for the review. The the clinical priorities involved for the whole country. relevant royal colleges have all endorsed it; the available research evidence underpins it; and all 10 specialised 1.18 pm commissioning groups and their local primary care trusts committed themselves to it at the outset. That Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con): I very seems to be a pretty formidable case. much support the principle that lies behind the review—that I am the constituency Member for the Freeman hospital we need larger, more sustainable centres with the same in Newcastle upon Tyne, and on 10 June I visited its overall number of specialists throughout the country. paediatric surgery unit. I never cease to be impressed by That is why charity and campaign groups, such as the the care, kindness and surgical skill that the national Children’s Heart Federation and Little Hearts Matter, health service provides. It is very moving to see very back the change. young children whose lives are literally being saved, and I recognise that people will have to travel further as a to meet youngsters who, 20 years ago, would not have consequence, and that will sometimes be extremely difficult, had a chance of life. The unit at the Freeman is one of for families in particular, but the choice is between two children’s heart transplant units in England, the people travelling further and getting the best outcome other being Great Ormond Street in London, and of for their child, and people having a shorter distance to course the unit benefits enormously from its link with travel but perhaps compromising the outcomes that can the internationally renowned adult cardiac services on be achieved. The clinical evidence is unambiguous: the same site. travelling further means that some children will live The expertise at the Freeman has been built up over who would otherwise die. On that basis—the whole decades. The first successful child heart transplant in basis behind the review—we have to bite the bullet and the UK was carried out there 20 years ago, and I am make change. happy to tell the House that the young lady is alive and I support the principle of fewer, larger units, but the well, living and working on Tyneside. experience of Royal Brompton hospital in my constituency Clinical outcomes at the children’s heart unit at the has made me question the process that is being used to Freeman are excellent. On my visit, I saw artificial make individual decisions. As my hon. Friend the Member ventricular device systems, known as Berlin hearts, attached for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) pointed out, the matter to very young patients, but, if the unit closed, that needs to be depoliticised from the outset. The review is pioneering work would move, probably to Birmingham, taking place at arm’s length from the Government. leaving the whole of the north without provision. There Indeed, as the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon are similar issues with the extra corporeal membrane Tyne East (Mr Brown) said, it was set up under the oxygenation services currently provided at the hospital. previous Government and is being administered by a The children’s heart unit really is a national resource, body called the joint committee of primary care trusts, with an international reputation. which I assume is up for abolition. No one can doubt the commitment of the senior Phase 1 of the assessment process involved ranking management and of the trust board to the pioneering all the existing units on core standards, sustainability, children’s cardiac work at the Freeman. The trust has facilities and so on. Great care was taken, and that invested in services and, pending the outcome of the makes the next phases all the more mystifying. Out of review, has a further investment programme ready to the 11 units ranked, the Royal Brompton came joint go. The review team, in its assessment, has weighted fourth, on 464 points. Of the 11 units assessed, only two quality, sustainability and deliverability more heavily had the maximum number of four surgeons—the Royal than access and travel, and that seems to me to be the Brompton and Great Ormond Street. In terms of the right prioritisation. number of procedures undertaken each year, the Royal I want to make two final points. Although this is an Brompton came fourth highest of all. In each of the England and Wales review, the people of Scotland three objective criteria, the Royal Brompton was in the could also be affected by the outcome, certainly as far top four nationally. I therefore asked the joint committee 509 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 510 Children Children of PCTs this question: why bother to rank all the units I became the MP for the Royal Brompton in May last only then to stipulate that one of the top four has to year, although, as the neighbouring MP previously, I close whatever else happens? That is the consequence of have been very familiar with its work for many years. Its the decision arbitrarily to rule out keeping three centres previous MP, my right hon. and learned Friend the open in London. One of the top four units in the Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), also country is to be axed, no matter its size and no matter strongly supports its campaign to fight the proposal. I its quality, due merely to its location. That flies in the have visited the hospital three times in the past year. face of the starting point of the review—that it was all The proposal to end its cardiac paediatrics has been about clinical outcomes, not geography. brought to the attention of parliamentary colleagues The Royal Brompton has four specialist surgeons across all parties and across large parts of London, the who perform 520 operations, including 453 children’s south-east and East Anglia. A huge petition has been heart operations, per year. It has a fantastic safety gathered, signed by more than 30,000 people, and tomorrow record, with an aggregate mortality rate of 0.94 of we are delivering it to No. 10. I have written at length 1%—less than half the national average of 2%. Why, and in detail to the Secretary of State on the matter, and then, when it is already a model example of what the he helpfully replied—I think this was confirmed by the review wants to create, does the consultation, in all the Minister—that options available, decree that it must close? The Joint “no decisions have yet been made”, committee of PCTs is claiming that it has an open including on the number of units to be located in mind, but in reality it is consulting on four options, all London. That is a cause for encouragement. of which would shut the unit at the Royal Brompton. I repeat that I support the aims of the review, but the The knock-on effects on services elsewhere in the consultation has been badly flawed. Three units in trust would be considerable, especially on children London, perhaps restructured, should have been an with cystic fibrosis, of whom there are 300 in the option, and the knock-on effects of closing services country. The future of provision for those children should have been considered. The case must now be would be extremely unclear. It is also unclear what re-examined. The Royal Brompton is good enough, capacity the remaining two hospitals in London would large enough and loved enough to survive. have to take on— 1.26 pm The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Burns) I will speak with great care because—he is as Jon Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab): I, too, congratulate aware of this as I am—of the possible judicial review the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and with regard to the Royal Brompton. I would like to say, other members of the Backbench Business Committee though, as I think it may help him, that no decisions on securing this timely debate. have yet been made. The consultation literature specifically When I delivered my maiden speech in the Chamber asks consultees for their views on how many centres it is two weeks ago I mentioned my support for the campaign to best to have in London—two or three. If they agree that maintain the children’s heart unit at Glenfield hospital, two is optimal, they are asked to state which two they which, as the right hon. Member for Charnwood prefer, including the Royal Brompton. Even though it is (Mr Dorrell), said, is in the constituency of my not included in any of the pillars, people who are taking parliamentary neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member part in the consultation process can argue its case, and it for Leicester West (Liz Kendall). The campaign is supported will be considered because the JCPCT is taking a flexible by my hon. Friend and by my right hon. Friend the approach to the consultation process. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), as well as by many Members from across the county, if not the east midlands as a whole. It is right that this does not Greg Hands: I welcome that intervention from the become a party political matter. Minister. He is right that it is open to the consultation to consider it, as it says on the last page of the consultation Last week, my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester document, but the document was contradictory on this West and I attended the public consultation event on point in the first place. On page 84, it says, Glenfield at Walkers stadium in my constituency attended by hundreds of concerned parents, dedicated staff and “London requires at least 2 centres due to the size of the local people, not only from Leicester but beyond the population it covers”, east midlands. Many of those people have never used but in a footnote on page 93 it still imposes the arbitrary the unit at Glenfield and, one hopes, will never need to limit of two centres at most. use it, but they were all convinced of the logic of The joint committee has belatedly recognised a problem. maintaining it. We heard moving stories from parents Under pressure, it announced at the beginning of May telling us how outstanding was the quality of care that an expert panel would be established to review the provided to their children. We heard testimonies from wider impact on other services if cardiac paediatrics many of the staff at Glenfield, who described in remarkable were to close. That was welcome, but it has continued to detail the quality of the care that they provide and how press ahead with the original consultation and names they intend to continue to improve it. for the new panel were not proposed until this week. By We also heard many people, particularly members of the time the new panel reports in August, the consultation the Asian community, express frustration, if not anger, will have closed. What happens if its response reflects about the fact that Glenfield features in only one option— the serious concerns about a whole series of national option A. Many Members will know that Leicester has services? Having consulted on options A, B, C and D, it a very diverse population. Evidence shows that there is can hardly go for an option E that no one was asked a high prevalence of heart disease in Asian communities, about. It would then probably have to re-consult. and some of my constituents from those communities 511 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 512 Children Children [Jon Ashworth] million names were on the petition to save the Leeds unit, which we delivered to No.10 Downing street on are particularly concerned that Leicester features in Tuesday. That is the biggest petition ever raised in only one option. In the past few weeks, people from Yorkshire, and we can be very proud about that. The mosques, gurdwaras, Hindu temples and the Federation two-hour radius around the Leeds heart surgery unit of Muslim Organisations have been very vocal about this. reaches 14.5 million people. Including check-up I want to focus my remarks on something that is appointments, the unit sees 10,000 children annually, unique and specific to Glenfield: our world-class ECMO— and it performs 340 operations. extracorporeal membrane oxygenation—service. An ECMO machine—I have to concede that I am far from an Julian Smith: As well as the number of operations expert on these things, so Members may want to correct performed at Leeds, will my hon. Friend talk about the me—rests the heart and/or lungs of a patient waiting rurality of many of the areas it serves? Skipton and for recovery. I have been told by many at Glenfield that Ripon is the most rural part of North Yorkshire. I have this procedure was pioneered there 20 years ago. Today, received many representations from my constituents Glenfield has more than 10 machines, and it is no about the issue of distance that there will be if Leeds exaggeration to describe it as a world-leading centre in does not survive. this field. Glenfield is the only centre in the country that Jason McCartney: My hon. Friend makes an important provides ECMO for patients of all ages, from newborns point. Many of those 14.5 million people are in rural to adults. Its expertise has been recognised on many areas, such as his North Yorkshire constituency. I will occasions. For example, last year 110 adults were treated touch on that issue in relation to my Colne Valley during the swine flu outbreak at Glenfield’s ECMO constituency shortly. centre. I want to say a few words about the inconsistencies in How is that relevant to the future of the children’s the options. The Safe and Sustainable review has said heart unit? Quite simply, the ECMO service is provided consistently that centres should perform a minimum of by the same staff who work in the congenital heart 400 operations a year, and ideally 500. However, under centre. Therefore, if that centre closes, Glenfield will option B, Bristol and Southampton would fail to achieve lose its ECMO service as well. Of course, the ECMO that number. The review’s projected figures show that service could go to Birmingham, as is mooted in the they would perform 360 and 382 operations respectively. consultation, but that rather misses the point. Many of During the meeting in Leeds, campaigners were told the staff working at Leicester’s ECMO centre have done that it was not viable to have three centres in the north so for nearly 20 years. Their combined expertise has of England because the figures would be 347 for Leeds helped to make Glenfield’s ECMO unit the world-class and 381 for Newcastle. If option B is viable, why is it not facility it is today. Many of my constituents are concerned viable to have three centres in the north of England? that it would be years before an ECMO unit could be Would not a solution be to keep Leeds and Newcastle re-established elsewhere with the same level of competence. open, and to give them two years in which to achieve all Training new staff to have the level of expertise offered the standards set out by the review? at Glenfield could take up to 10 years. That is why many people in my constituency feel that keeping this national Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): That is precisely service is vital. Giles Peek, a consultant paediatric heart why the motion calls on the JCPCT to show maximum surgeon, told the Leicester Mercury: flexibility and not to restrict itself to the four options. “We use it not just after surgery but also to stabilise children The answer could be, “Yes we can.” and to stop them dying before surgery. We are almost always full and often take children from other hospitals… Our role at Glenfield Jason McCartney: I agree that that is what we are as national reference centre for this treatment is important and looking for. The idea behind the motion is to ask for underestimated.” more flexibility. Although I understand that this is a consultation and I have talked about statistics and about the 500,000 that it is right that these decisions are made by clinicians names on the petition, but there are three compelling and not politicians, I hope that the joint committee will reasons why I am speaking in this debate—or perhaps I consider further options because of the expertise at our should say three young reasons. Those three young ECMO centre. Many of my constituents would be reasons all happen to be at one school in my Colne grateful if the Minister reflected on the national implications Valley constituency. I met three pupils at Linthwaite of Glenfield losing its ECMO centre and, at an appropriate Clough school near Huddersfield, who back the campaign time, made some remarks about that. to save Yorkshire’s only children’s heart surgery unit because they owe their lives to it. George Sutcliffe is a 1.31 pm 12-year-old who uses a wheelchair six days a week and Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I, too, thank attends the heart surgery unit in Leeds about once a my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) month. Ben Pogson, who is 10, and Joel Bearder, who is for his hard work, along with other colleagues, in securing just four, both underwent major heart surgery at the this Back-Bench debate. unit. Ben and Joel’s mums, Sam and Gaynor, have I will speak on behalf of the Leeds children’s heart played leading roles in the campaign to save the unit, surgery unit, which serves the whole of Yorkshire. I was along with many others, and I praise their contributions. fortunate enough to visit the unit in November. I met its As well as those three pupils, one of the teachers at the wonderful staff and surgeons, and spoke to many parents school owes his life to the skill of the medical staff in and some of the patients. Over the next couple of hours, Leeds. Richard Quarmby, a learning mentor at the we will hear a lot of intricate detail, just as we have school who will start his teacher training in September, already. There will be many statistics, facts and figures. I had major surgery for his congenital heart condition at want to give a few facts and figures of my own. Half a the Leeds heart surgery unit. 513 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 514 Children Children Those people owe their lives to the unit. They cite its Mr Dorrell: I think that the hon. Gentleman slightly wonderful staff and its proximity to Huddersfield as misrepresented what I said. I did not say, “You must crucial. It takes less than an hour to get there. The unit accept it”, or “Take it or leave it”. I said that those who gives fantastic family support and there is accommodation wished to argue for a different approach must argue for for parents if needed. As a result of George, Ben and the whole approach, and not for a sectional interest. Joel’s treatment at the unit, the Linthwaite Clough school council has decided to support it as its annual Mr Mudie: I entirely accept that, and I did not intend chosen charity. Already, it has organised a series of to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman had said fundraisers, including a colourful, cheerful day. For the anything different. My point is that, while the clinical reasons I have given, I think that the Safe and Sustainable case for a rationalisation is unarguable, equality of review should be renamed the safe, sustainable and access is as important a consideration as any. Excellent supporting families review. treatment must not be available to only a certain number Finally, on behalf of Ben, Joel, George and many of people. others, I shall support the motion. Greg Mulholland: We all accept the clinical premise of the review, but is it not incredibly arrogant for 1.37 pm anyone to suggest that it cannot be fallible? There are Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): I congratulate obvious flaws in it. Many clinicians themselves say that the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on the it is flawed. hard work he has put in to secure this debate. I compliment him on the sensitivity with which he phrased his Mr Mudie: I hear what the hon. Gentleman says. I contribution. I hope that that will allow the Government think that the same case was made by the right hon. Whips to stay out of the decision and allow Members to Member for Charnwood. We may prevaricate for one get what we seek, which is not interference in clinical reason or another, but sometimes it may be necessary to observations, but a review of how this is being carried make a decision even when we think that it is not out geographically. perfect, and I think that this is an instance of that. If the life of a child is involved, we must make a decision. The right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) was more sanguine than I am about the involvement of If we continue to challenge the clinical aspect of the Sir Bruce Keogh, the NHS medical director. I found his review, we will fall into the trap of allowing a bad article in The Times this morning ill-timed, coming on situation to continue. The case for change has been the morning of a debate, when feelings are running proved, and, while we may differ on how that change high. I do not find it acceptable for him to say that should be made, what is important is for us to express anyone who opposes his view is “disingenuous” and the view—and I should like to see it challenged—that that there should be equality of access. Each region should “political interests conspire to perpetuate mediocrity and inhibit ensure that every part of it has equality of access where the pursuit of excellence.” possible, although that will involve some difficulty if Yorkshire is lumped together with the north-east. I find that offensive. Nobody in the Chamber argues with the clinical objectives. I find it unacceptable that In the last year I have had to move from my constituency some youngsters who are taken to centres for medical office, which was in the centre of the constituency. I was treatment get excellent treatment and that others get offered cheaper, perhaps even better, accommodation in less than excellent treatment. I find it sensible and the outer part, but I felt that it would be unfair on the laudable that we should rationalise those centres to other wards for me to move away from the centre. If build up experience and techniques, and so that there option four is either Leeds or Newcastle, I think that are more people to share their experiences. that is unfair on both. I do not want to close Newcastle, and Newcastle does not want to close Leeds. Locating The right hon. Member for Charnwood said that we provision sensibly in each region is important, but the should not oppose the proposal because it is right House should also recognise, as it rarely does, that the clinically. He told us not to think of our own hospitals, country has some corners in which there is no equality but to think nationally. “Nationally”, however, also of access in any respect. Those in Newcastle, in the top means “regionally”. The point that has not been corner, and those in Cornwall, in the bottom corner, do made is that, while the Chamber should accept the not have access to many facilities that are accessible to clinical arguments, equality of access is also people in the midlands, in Yorkshire and, above all, in important. That is what is being said by most of the London. opponents of the proposals, and they are not being disingenuous. For instance, in the Newcastle versus I believe that the House should accept the motion, Leeds argument, it would not be acceptable for me to and that the review team should forget about the clinical argue in favour of the Leeds case on the basis that arguments and produce a template that proves to every Leeds children should not have to travel 100 miles to Member that the excellent services that we should be Newcastle, because if we won our case, Newcastle children demanding for children’s care will be shared equally would have to travel 100 miles to Leeds. If it is wrong around the country. The team should give some real, for us, it is wrong for them. positive, out-of-the-box thought to how to deal with areas that generally lose out. If the rationalisation, which we accept, takes place properly—and this is where the Minister comes in—there 1.45 pm will be an underlay of fairness and equality of access. We have a National Theatre in London, but it is not a Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): It is a National Theatre for Yorkshire. It is nice for Hampstead, pleasure to follow my Leeds colleagues, and it is a but it is not very good for Seacroft in Leeds. pleasure to work with all the Leeds and Yorkshire and 515 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 516 Children Children [Greg Mulholland] I wish to echo three points that have been made about the wonderful Leeds unit. The first is about the co-location Humber Members of Parliament throughout the House of services. The unit is a case of true co-location, which in support of the inspiring campaign to save the Leeds is what the British Congenital Cardiac Association has unit. I too was proud to be there to help present that called “gold standard” care. Leeds is currently one of remarkable petition. Nearly half a million people in the only two hospitals shown in the review to have such a region have spoken out in an attempt to save the unit. type and level of service. Mr Joe Mellor, a consultant When I visited it, I had the same experience as other anaesthetist at Leeds, says: Members have had when visiting their local units. I “What is particularly upsetting about the proposals is that our found it incredibly moving to meet those babies and patients from Yorkshire would leave the Leeds unit and have to children and their families, while also being conscious travel to Newcastle or Leicester. Leeds has centralised all its that I was walking into a centre of excellence. It benefits children’s services onto one site. Neither Newcastle nor Leicester from a genuine co-location of services, which is the gold have come close to achieving this. Congenital cardiac surgery is a standard that has been set, and 370 operations are very complicated form of medical treatment. If in Leeds we encounter a problem where the child needs the help of an intestinal already being performed there—very close to the 400 figure. surgeon, or a neurosurgeon, or need renal therapy, or a host of other possible therapy, then we get it immediately in our own Mr Kevan Jones: I note the size of the petition, but as children’s hospital.” a former Defence Minister responsible for defence medical services I faced similar petitions when the Ministry of Jonathan Darling, a consultant paediatrician at the Defence was concentrating military health care at University Leeds general infirmary, states: Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trust, which is “To lose heart surgery from the Leeds Children’s hospital now a centre of excellence not just in this country but would be a huge blow, especially when we have just centralised services precisely to realise the benefits of having all paediatric internationally. Although petitions are valuable, clinical services co-located on one site. The Review process does not seem outcomes must be at the forefront of any decision, and to give sufficient weighting to this true co-location.” the MOD’s decision to concentrate defence medical I am afraid that it simply has not done so, which is services at Birmingham was the right one. worrying and quite extraordinary. Greg Mulholland: It would be very worrying if the The second point that I wish to make is on the issue extraordinarily overwhelming views expressed by people of population, which colleagues from the region have were ignored, but of course the clinical view is vital, already raised. It simply makes no sense to close a and, as I have said, many clinicians have a problem with wonderful unit that is already performing almost the the flaws—clinical flaws—in the review. number of operations that it must, when there are so many people in the area and the population is growing. Stuart Andrew: My hon. Friend mentioned the I echo the comments of the hon. Member for Leeds co-location of services. As I mentioned in my speech, East (Mr Mudie) when I say that of course we do not Leeds has spent considerable time ensuring that all want to see the Newcastle unit close. We do not want to children’s services are under one roof. If we lost the see any unit close, because this is about getting things heart unit there, might not other services be affected as right. However, I say to him and others that it would be well? absolutely perverse to close Leeds simply to enable Newcastle to perform a sufficient number of operations. Greg Mulholland: I have not yet had a chance to If we stick to the number in the review, Newcastle can congratulate my hon. Friend on the way in which he has only perform that number of operations if Leeds closes. co-ordinated our campaign. It has been a pleasure to That is absurd. work with him so closely, and I look forward to continuing to work with him and other colleagues. He is right: one Mr Mudie: The point I was making was that if we are of those serious flaws is the failure to consider the to take the review’s point and place units strategically, impact on adult heart services, which would be a huge the obvious place with a mass population is Leeds. problem. However, I said that that would leave Newcastle out on There is real concern out there, as has been demonstrated a limb, and something has to be done about that. The not only by the petition in Yorkshire and petitions in case for Leeds is unchallengeable. other parts of the country, but by the views expressed by many respected practising and retired clinicians. The Greg Mulholland: Indeed, and we have to get the concern about the closures is understandable, but there point across to colleagues in other areas that perhaps is also concern about the review itself. There is concern we have to challenge the premise of the review and about the process, about the conclusions reached so far, some of its figures if we are to reach other about the lack of consistency in the recommendations, recommendations. about the lack of logic in relation to the premise of the The third matter that I wish to mention, as the hon. review, and, I am sorry to say, about a lack of impartiality. Gentleman did, is travel. In the meeting yesterday with That is why it is right for the House to have an the review team, I was frankly dismayed by how little opportunity to express that concern on behalf of all the consideration was being given to the reality of ordinary areas concerned, and why it is fitting that the Minister working families and the effect that having to travel of State, Department of Health, the right hon. Member would have on them. I shall give a couple of examples. for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), is present. I thank the Johanne Walters, the mother of Emma, states that to Minister for the way in which he has engaged with us, them the change and I urge Members in all parts of the House to “would mean her…surgery will be undertaken miles away from support the motion, so that we can address the concern home and nobody would be there to support me—no family no that has been expressed outside and inside the House by friends—and it is incredibly difficult being there 24/7 at your considering the possibility of other configurations. child’s bedside, even with this support”. 517 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 518 Children Children Joanne and David Binns, whose son Oliver has been Mr Kevan Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that in treated, have said: County Durham, the concentration of adult cardiac “Oliver is our only child, and I’m sure you can imagine how it surgery and emergency care at the Freeman hospital turned our world upside down. But we knew that we had family and the James Cook university hospital, which was and friends who could just pop in and make us some food at the controversial when it happened, has improved not only end of a long day, bring us clean clothes, and just be there if we care but the survival rates of individuals from County needed a chat. I can’t imagine how much extra pressure it would Durham? Even though there are hospitals in the county have been at this point to have to think about long distance travel closer to some people, survival rates have gone up and accommodation on top of everything else.” because of that concentration. Matthew and Karen are the parents of Liam Hey, a constituent of mine who has become something of a Pat Glass: Absolutely, and we need to appreciate why celebrity. He is a wonderful young man who is being such moves are necessary. None of us wants another treated at Leeds. Karen has said: Bristol baby tragedy, and I think there is general agreement “My son would not be here if it wasn’t for the LGI. It would be that we need changes in the organisation of services to too much of a trauma to transfer children to another place.” drive up the quality of treatment and bring together Travel has simply not received adequate consideration. specialist surgeons to work in larger teams. It comes out top of the criteria that people give when we ask them, but it is not anywhere near the top of the Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Will the hon. list of the review’s considerations. That is wrong. Lady give way? We have to re-examine the situation. I am delighted Pat Glass: Practically everyone remains in agreement that the House has had a chance to debate it today, and that those changes need to be made. that Ministers have been so accommodating in enabling us to do so. I urge the House to support the motion. We Andrew Percy: Will the hon. Lady give way? should come back with some proposals that will really work for children and that we can all support. Pat Glass: The argument is simply about which units will specialise in surgery, even though all existing units Several hon. Members rose— will continue to offer ongoing cardiology care.

Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. To Andrew Percy: Will the hon. Lady give way? accommodate more Members, I am reducing the time limit to five minutes. I hope that both Front Benchers Pat Glass: I am not going to give way, no matter how will take into account the popularity of the debate and much the hon. Gentleman hassles me. I can see that that the need to get Back Benchers in when they make their is what he plans to do. contributions. Many local campaigns have been mounted, and they have been supported by local MPs fighting for their own units or fighting to delay decisions. I absolutely 1.54 pm understand that, but the decisions have been put off Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab): I do not have before for many reasons, which I believe is to the a children’s heart unit in my constituency. I do not even detriment of patients. have one close by. There are parents in my constituency The decision should not be made on a political basis. who are 50 miles from the nearest unit, but they tell me Few of us in the House are qualified to judge the that they do not care about that. They would travel to quality, sustainability and deliverability of clinical outcomes the ends of the earth to get access to the best provision. in children’s heart provision. On 7 June, when I questioned That is what matters to them, not having somewhere on the Minister of State, Department of Health, the right their doorstep. hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), on the matter, he gave me a categorical assurance that decisions would be Stuart Andrew: I have to take issue with that. The “based on clinical outcomes, not political considerations.”—[Official parents I have spoken to are very concerned that they Report, 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 12.] might have to travel. Of course they will travel as far as I hope that he will keep his nerve in the face of sustained they have to, but if we can provide a service closer to political lobbying. their homes, should we not strive for that? The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon Pat Glass: They are saying that because they have a Burns): If it encourages or reassures the hon. Lady, I unit on their doorstep now. We do not all live in big will give her that commitment again today. cities, and some people have to travel a long way. Parents tell me that what they want is the best services, Pat Glass: I thank the Minister. and even if they have to travel to get them, that is what The Children’s Heart Foundation has advised me comes first. Travel and access are issues to consider, but that the closer we get to a decision, the more difficult every parent who has contacted me has confirmed that the political battle will become. In a bid to save surgery the most important thing for them is that their child facilities in their areas, some parents and clinicians are gets access to the best provision available, and to surgeons asking MPs to stall progress towards a decision. Parents who carry out these complex operations a couple of have been told that some units will close, when in fact times a week, not a couple of times a year. They tell me even if surgery is centred elsewhere, local units will that they will go anywhere to ensure that their child gets continue to provide specialist medical treatment on a the best chance of surviving and that their condition “hubs and spokes” model. I believe that parents have improves. been misled on some matters. 519 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 520 Children Children [Pat Glass] area is designated as “remote”. He told me that it was a “subjective interpretation” and that the review board These decisions are crucial to the future clinical recognise that the island, outcomes and life chances of our children. The Minister “by its very nature, is remote from the mainland”. has again today categorically assured me that they will Of course, that is accurate, but the board should have be based on clinical outcomes only, and I thank him for noticed earlier. After starting the consultation and working that. on it for years, it suddenly struck the board that there are 1.59 pm “unique factors around retrieval times by ferry”. Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): I shall My Glyde was very helpful. He explained: confine my speech to issues that uniquely affect my “We have been able to generate potential scenarios that could constituents. The Safe and Sustainable consultation is enable the ambulance to meet the standards”. fundamentally flawed. Three of the four options envisage They did so not by using the “three hours” standard set the closure of the Southampton centre. Those options out in the consultation, but by deciding that the “four are based on wrong assumptions and inaccurate data. hours” will apply to the newly remote Isle of Wight. It Let me set out the background. The consultation document may be possible to generate scenarios in which an states: ambulance from Bristol or London can get to the island “All options must be able to meet the minimum requirement to in four hours. I can generate some scenarios in which I collect a child by ambulance…within three hours of being contacted become Prime Minister. Neither possibility can be entirely by the referring unit”. ruled out, but they do not reflect what is likely to It then examined “detailed access mapping” using train happen in real life—[HON.MEMBERS: “No!”] and road journeys—that is important—and considered Putting aside my political future, let us examine some how existing networks were affected. More options that realities. The AA route planner shows that it takes two did not meet the “three hours” criteria were ruled out. hours to get to the other side of the Isle of Wight, and Bristol is included in “all viable options”because south-west an hour at least— Cornwall and south Wales are more than three hours away from either Southampton or Birmingham. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Unfortunately, nobody in that expert team seems to have noticed that people cannot travel by train or road 2.4 pm from the Isle of Wight. There is a clue in the name: it is an island, separated from the mainland by the Solent. I Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) have said before that the ferries provide lifeline services (Lab): That the children’s heart unit at Newcastle’s for my constituents, but in this case that is literal. The Freeman hospital is cherished across the north-east is error in the data was that because we must cross the undisputed. One has only to read the coverage of the Solent by ferry, the island is more than three hours away Newcastle Evening Chronicle “Keep Our Children’s Heart from either Bristol or London. Unit” campaign in recent months to appreciate just In May, that was pointed out to Mr Jeremy Glyde, how the unit has changed the lives of countless young the programme director of the Safe and Sustainable people and families over the past decades. review. A statement issued on 3 June said that the team Indeed, because of the pioneering work of the children’s “based retrieval times between the island and the mainland on heart unit at the Freeman, it is recognised nationally travel by air. This was an oversight” and internationally as a centre of excellence, with particular because the policy is strength in quality and outcomes. The unit has also had significant investment over recent years. It is the only “to retrieve children from the Isle of Wight by road and ferry”. unit in the country able to offer all forms of heart That is very odd, because the consultation document treatment, regardless of age, under one roof, and the explicitly states: Freeman is recognised as having led the way in the UK “Air travel has not been considered because it cannot always be in providing end-stage heart failure treatment for children. relied upon”. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle The statement goes on to say that upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) said, the Freeman famously “an ambulance must reach the referring hospital within 3 hours, and bravely performed the UK’s first successful baby or within 4 hours in ‘remote areas’”. heart transplant in 1987. It has performed more than The conclusion was that 200 child heart transplants overall, and was recently the “it is sensible to measure retrieval times to the Isle of Wight first hospital in the world to enable a young child to against the threshold for ‘remote areas’.” survive for four months with an artificial heart, while On remote areas, the consultation document states: the baby’s own heart recovered. “Removing surgery from some centres could have a The quality of the work carried out at the Freeman disproportionate impact on children in some remote areas because means that young patients and their families travel to ambulances would not be able to reach the child in three hours or Newcastle for treatment not just from the west of Cumbria less”— or north Yorkshire, but from as far afield as Scotland, meaning three hours or less from Southampton in my Northern Ireland and even the Republic of Ireland. case. For those reasons, I believe that the children’s heart On 3 June, Mr Glyde did not say why the Isle of unit at the Freeman is well-placed to continue providing Wight suddenly became a “remote area” when previously its excellent, world-leading cardiac surgery services for it was not. I am sure it did not move without me or any children. Three of the four options put forward by the of the other 130,000 residents noticing. I asked Mr Glyde Safe and Sustainable review propose that that should be to point me to the guidelines that determine when an the case. However, I have concerns about attempts to 521 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 522 Children Children move the debate away from the key issue at hand: In conclusion, I am not asking those who will make ensuring that congenital cardiac services provided to the final decision to give special treatment to the children’s children in England and Wales continue to be high heart unit at the Freeman, or indeed to the people of quality, and therefore safe, and sustainable and deliverable. Newcastle and the north-east. I am all too aware how That was the intention of the Safe and Sustainable difficult this process has been for all children’s heart review. units under consideration. Each is valued and each has a great story to tell. However, I am asking that the Andrew Percy: Will the hon. Lady give way? decision is made on the grounds of clinical excellence and the quality of services that are currently provided, Catherine McKinnell: I shall give way once. and on those grounds alone. I urge that a decision on the future of children’s congenital cardiac services is not Andrew Percy: I do not think any hon. Members who put off or prolonged, because the safety of babies and are fighting to save their local units are trying to move children in need of heart surgery should be paramount the debate away from that. I shall quote what health in this debate. professionals from the North Lincolnshire and Goole NHS Foundation Trust say: 2.9 pm “In summary, we believe the babies, children and families of Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): I congratulate my northern Lincolnshire would be largely disadvantaged…knowingly hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) relocating a well run and safe service without providing additional advantage to our families is questionable and unnecessary.” on the measured, sensible and sensitive way in which he moved his motion. There is clearly a lot of strong We are not moving the debate away from the clinical feeling in the Chamber today, which is understandable issues at all. given the number of people potentially affected by these Catherine McKinnell: The hon. Gentleman has put changes. We all know that geography in this country is his thoughts and concerns on that issue on the record. an important consideration, and although a political argument can be made for having fewer centres—it I mentioned the intentions of the Safe and Sustainable might save some lives—it can also be argued that for review, which was instigated by national parent groups, some families, particularly those living further from NHS clinicians and their professional associations. Those theses hospitals, these proposals could cost lives, if intentions must be the primary drivers in deciding the people are unable to get to one of the hospitals. final outcome of the review. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight I am equally concerned at suggestions that the decision (Mr Turner) made an extremely good point about the and outcome of the review should be stalled, or that the difficulties with moving the Southampton unit. Yes, remit should be altered. I am not alone in expressing parents will go wherever they can get the best treatment, such concerns. The Children’s Heart Foundation argues but they prefer to go somewhere nearby.I have constituents that that would leave who have moved to Poole simply because of its proximity “the door wide open for another Bristol Baby tragedy”. to the Southampton unit, and I expect that families Meanwhile, the charity Little Hearts Matter believes around the country with similar problems also sometimes that the Safe and Sustainable service reconfiguration vote with their feet by buying a home in close proximity offers— to a unit. This point needs to be taken into account. A Mrs Owen made the point to me quite forcefully that it Stuart Andrew: Will the hon. Lady give way? was one reason she and her family moved to Poole. Catherine McKinnell: No, I will not. The chairman of Poole borough council’s health and social care overview and scrutiny committee has concerns, Little Hearts Matter says: as do Councillor Charles Meachim and Antoinette “The Safe and Sustainable Service reconfiguration offers a McAaulay, who is a consultant paediatrician at Poole monumental opportunity to ensure that every child with a heart hospital. The latter raised concerns about the impact on problem has access to the best heart surgery service that this country can offer—a gold standard service.” the Southampton unit and pointed out that Southampton had the highest quality score for clinical care outside I urge anyone in a position of influence, including hon. London and the second highest in the UK following the Members, to support that step forward, and not to halt Kennedy review in 2010, suggesting that the children’s the process because of personal bias. cardiac paediatrics service in Southampton is a safe A number of hon. Members are concerned about the service. She also points out that the numbers for co-location of children’s services. However, it is important Southampton might be wrong because since the suspension to note that during the development of the £100 million of services in Oxford, the numbers have gone up new Great North Children’s hospital at the Freeman’s considerably from those quoted in the study. sister hospital, the Royal Victoria infirmary, a deliberate Although I agree with the motion and think it silly to decision was made to retain children’s heart services at stick only with options A, B, C and D, people in my the Freeman, aligned with the world-renowned adult area of the country would prefer B because of the heart services there. impact it would have on the Southampton centre. People Services that simply did not exist 20 years ago have in my constituency have pointed out that the option B created a new generation of adults needing care, and the proposal includes the centre with the highest quality service at the Freeman allows for a seamless transition score, the centre with the best surgery survival rates and into adulthood. Of course, services at the Great North the centre with the highest score for research. A strong Children’s hospital are available to the Freeman in a argument can be made for retaining the Southampton matter of minutes—throughout the review process, unit. It has strong support from my constituents and they have been recognised as though they are on the people in Dorset, so I hope that the joint committee will same site. consider it carefully. 523 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 524 Children Children Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): several days running. As has been pointed out, these Representing part of Poole, I am aware of the strong changes have been put forward by clinicians, and I feelings there. Equally, however, I take on board the would urge the House to tread with great care in need for clinically driven decisions. Many Members are jeopardising the outcome of such a clinician-led review. raising concerns about flaws in the proposals, so it We must remind ourselves that the review does not makes a lot of sense to proceed with the motion, propose the closure of any centres, and would instead because whatever happens we want to be sure that the concentrate surgery in the centres where it can be performed best decisions are being made. Does my hon. Friend feel safely. that there is great uncertainty? I finish with a broader point that the Minister might like to reflect on. This review is a good example of Mr Syms: I agree with the hon. Lady. It is important evidence-based policy making in the NHS. Perhaps we to get this right, rather than to rush. Clearly there are can have more of that as the process of NHS reform concerns. I know that the Minister is a sensible soul and moves forward. will respond—[Laughter.] Well perhaps he was once a sensible soul. I am sure that he will respond to Members’ 2.17 pm concerns. The important thing is that many people out there have concerns that we need to address if we are to Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con): I thank my deliver a first-rate service that our constituents feel is hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) good for them. for his incredible hard work on this issue, not just this week but over many months. 2.13 pm Yesterday many MPs received an e-mail from the chief executive of the Children’s Heart Federation, who Stephen Twigg (Liverpool, West Derby) (Lab/Co-op): is also a member of the Safe and Sustainable programme I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart steering group. She wrote: Andrew) on securing this important debate. I have the “’Clinicians have led these changes and we believe it is wrong privilege to have in my constituency the hugely impressive that some politicians are now trying to block the process that will and world-class Alder Hey children’s hospital, which I lead to the vital improvements in children’s care.” am delighted is included in all four options in the I do not agree with that assessment because I agree motion. I would express some concern, however, were absolutely with the aims of the review, as do many of the motion to be agreed to and were we to go beyond my hon. Friends. However, I have an issue with the those four options. I hope that Alder Hey would be process of the review and what it has missed out. In the included in any further options that the joint committee case of Leeds, there has been no formal opportunity to would consider and consult on. correct factual inaccuracies in Sir Ian Kennedy’s pre- Alder Hey’s cardiac unit treats children with all forms consultation assessment report, and no impact assessment of heart disease, not only in Liverpool and the wider was undertaken before the four options were announced Merseyside area, but those travelling from the wider in the consultation north-west of England, north and mid-Wales and the As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds North Isle of Man. The total catchment area for children West (Greg Mulholland) said, Leeds delivers what is using Alder Hey’s cardiac unit covers about 7 million considered a gold standard of service, and is one of people, so many people already travel very long distances only two hospitals that offer this gold standard. However, to use the excellent services there. Since 2006, the hospital the weighting in the criteria did not take account of that has treated more than 4,000 patients for cardiac conditions at all. It would be fair to say, therefore, that I, my fellow and performed surgery on more than half of them. I Yorkshire, Humber and Lincolnshire MPs and the more spoke to the hospital this week in anticipation of today’s than 500,000 fellow Yorkshiremen who handed in a debate, and it expects that the concentration of surgery petition to the Prime Minister this week have little faith at Alder Hey will further increase demand, and has in an open and transparent process that is fair for the built that into its current plans. Alder Hey is on track to people in the current Leeds catchment area. have a brand new hospital with a children’s park. The plans are very exciting and have got a strong commitment Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): from the local community in my constituency in West And women. Derby. The hospital is strengthening its services. For example, it is investing in the existing team to add a Craig Whittaker: I apologise if I left out women. sixth cardiologist and an eighth intensivist, increasing Greg Mulholland: Let me too say that it is a pleasure its theatre capacity to enable the delivery of 637 cases working with my hon. Friend, but can we debunk this per year, and it has already achieved the minimum myth that we are talking about a review without flaws required activity for this operational year of 447 cases. that is based on clinical guidelines? Option B, which he Members have spoken about the balance between our mentioned, does not even get us to 400 operations for responsibilities to consider the national picture and our some centres. In too many places the review does not constituency responsibilities. Happily I am in a position even follow its own logic. to argue that the proposals work both in terms of national policy and for my constituents. The Children’s Craig Whittaker: I agree with my hon. Friend, who is Heart Federation has highlighted some of the benefits absolutely right. This comes back to my basic premise, of the Safe and Sustainable review’s proposals, which because all we are asking for is an open, honest and have been mentioned by hon. Members today: minimal transparent process that will produce the desired outcomes. cancellations and short waiting times for surgery; better Last year, one of my constituents, Miss Libby Carstairs, outcomes from surgery; and an end to high-risk rotas in spent many months in Leeds hospital and underwent which a surgeon in a small team covering for a colleague heart surgery several times over several months. As we on leave can operate all day and be on call all night know, the aims of the consultation clearly show that 525 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 526 Children Children parents would take their child anywhere to get the best compounded by an examination of the background to treatment when they are as poorly as Libby is and was. that review. Indeed, perhaps the explanation for why Under the proposals, Libby would have gone backwards Southampton appears to have been treated so peripherally and forwards several times, probably between Newcastle can be found in the review itself. Of course it is important for surgery and Leeds for her convalescence. Currently, that the review should be completed, that changes should her care and surgery all happen in one place. As with all be made and that judgments be made on clinical grounds. families at such a stressful time, it was hugely beneficial However, I would suggest that it is not on clinical that the family could visit regularly and help in the grounds that anyone should have forgotten that the Isle convalescence period. Libby’s mum spent her life in that of Wight exists. That is the province of geographers unit with her, and her grandparents played a huge role rather than clinicians. If clinicians depend on the material with relief and support. Libby’s being in Leeds even in a review setting out the factors that will be taken into allowed her head teacher, from Carr Green primary account in their final decision, much of their power in school, the opportunity to visit and take messages of making that decision could be overthrown by what goes support from her classmates and friends. I saw first into that review in the first place. hand not only how that cheered Libby up, but how it It is not a clinical decision for the review to state that helped to fast-track the recovery of this poorly little Southampton has two surgeons and undertakes girl. It also without question helped Libby eventually to 231 procedures, when in fact it will have four surgeons go home, albeit with high levels of support. Such support by this summer and undertake almost 400 procedures, from family and friends would not have been possible as a result of, among other things, its excellent collaboration had Libby been up and down to, say, Newcastle or with Oxford, which my right hon. Friend the Member Liverpool, which are many miles away. for Oxford East (Mr Smith) mentioned earlier, but Although the main principle of parents taking their which the review appears to neglect. If such a decision child wherever they need to go to get the best treatment is made by the review, which appears to have got so is absolutely correct, it does not take into account the many things wrong about the background to Southampton’s loss of income to the family through not being in work, excellent services, the 250,000 petitioners who signed the huge cost of travelling much further distances, and the petition that went to No. 10 yesterday will justifiably the incredibly important network of support from family feel let down by the process, whoever conducts it. The and friends at what is an awfully frustrating and stressful national health service has a long and honourable record time for everyone involved—the big society at its best, of stitching people up for the right reasons. If as a result as it were. I cannot imagine what it is like not to know of the review those 250,000 people end up feeling whether one’s child is going to live or die, so I cannot stitched up for the wrong reasons, they will have every begin to comprehend the full extent of the support right to feel very aggrieved indeed. needed and appreciated by families. Several hon. Members rose— Contrary to the e-mail received yesterday, MPs do understand the process, as do the 500,000 people who Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Just to have signed the petition. However, it is scandalous that inform the House of the procedure, I will now call the Leeds fits into only one of the four options, particularly Minister. The recommendation from the Backbench as vital information has been missed out of Sir Ian Business Committee is that he speaks for about 15 minutes. Kennedy’s assessment. To sum up, if the Government However, I should remind the House that if he takes are big enough to listen to the people and amend their persistent interventions, that will extend the time that proposals on issues such as the NHS and jail, surely he spends on his feet, which will deny other Back clinicians at the JCPCT should be big enough to review Benchers the opportunity of speaking. The shadow their plans, by listening to what 500,000 people from Minister will be speaking towards the end of the debate. Yorkshire, Humberside and Lincolnshire are telling them to do. 2.28 pm The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr Simon 2.23 pm Burns): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab): Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing this debate on the Southampton children’s services are located at Southampton review of children’s heart surgery services. He has a general hospital, right in the middle of my constituency. strong record of campaigning on this issue and of The hard work undertaken by the large numbers of bringing the concerns of his constituents to the attention people who organised the petition presented at No. 10 of the House. I also congratulate him and the other yesterday—I and a number of fellow Members from hon. Members on the motion they tabled. The Government across south-central England managed to get ourselves and I wholeheartedly support its contents, and I urge very wet helping to deliver it—showed not partisan other hon. Members to do so as well. fighting on behalf of a particular unit, regardless of its I should also like to take this opportunity to pay quality or the service that it represents, but genuine tribute to the dedicated NHS staff who work in children’s mystification that the process appears to have dealt so heart services in my hon. Friend’s constituency and peripherally with Southampton’s role in the national across the country. They do a tremendous job, for roll-out of services. In 2010, Sir Ian Kennedy rated which we are all incredibly grateful, more often than Southampton as provider of the highest quality service not in complex and difficult circumstances. outside London, rating it particularly highly on paediatric I should like to confirm that the review is totally intensive care and support for parents, and highly on independent of the Government, and that it is clinically training and innovation. led. It is not driven by me, by other Ministers or by the That mystification as to why such a unit should Department of Health. It is therefore not appropriate feature in just one of the options in the review was for me to comment on the specific hospitals consulted 527 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 528 Children Children [Mr Simon Burns] Many of the 150 types of operation undertaken by these dedicated teams are among the most complex, during process. I do not wish to act, or to be seen to act, challenging and technically demanding areas of surgery. in a way that could influence or prejudice the process Success requires intricate surgery on hearts often no that is going on. As many hon. Members have said, bigger than a walnut, coupled with finely balanced this is a highly emotive issue, particularly for those judgments drawn from a combination of advancing whose children’s lives have been saved by the services science, personal experience and compassion. It involves under review. It is worth reminding ourselves why the a range of highly trained individual team members—before, review was conceived and planned and is now being during and after the operation. carried out. The risks posed by the complex nature of heart This is not a new issue. The provision of children’s surgery include not just possible death after surgery, but heart surgery has been a cause for concern since the lifelong complications such as brain damage and other Bristol royal infirmary inquiry in the late 1990s. disabilities. The judgments of any expert medical team Understandably, there has been considerable pressure caring for a particular child therefore have a direct and from national parents groups and professionals to ensure long-lasting impact not only the future of each vulnerable that children receive the best treatment, and the sole child, but on that of their families. purpose of the Safe and Sustainable review is to ensure There is also the issue of recruitment. The fact is that that children with congenital heart problems receive the smaller centres have problems with recruiting and retaining best possible care now and long into the future. To do the very best surgeons. There is a risk that those working that, we must be certain that the centres in which in smaller centres will find themselves working in isolation surgery takes place are as good as they can be. and in units that are not as up-to-date with techniques and clinical practice as the larger ones are. Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): The Minister will not be surprised to hear that my Greg Mulholland: We all understand the premise of constituents, like all the others in Yorkshire, are in the review about the need to move to larger centres, but favour of Leeds, but I do not want to draw him on that. does the Minister not understand—I am not trying to I would like him to help us in our argument by telling us draw him—the real concern when Leeds is performing what the clinical outcomes for Leeds are and how they 370 procedures a year and Newcastle, a smaller unit, compare with other centres. In particular, will he confirm performed only 255 last year, yet Newcastle is in all four that they are all safe? units and Leeds only in one?

Mr Burns: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for Mr Burns: I fully appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s that intervention. With regard to Leeds teaching hospital, point, but I hope that he will appreciate that he is now he will know that this is a complex issue. There are trying to draw me into a discussion on the merits of 36 different surgical procedures listed on the central Leeds as against Newcastle. As I said earlier, it is cardiac audit database, but the three most relevant ones inappropriate for me as a Minister to do that. However, in the context of his question are those that deal with it is a point that the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend atrioventricular septal defect, arterial switch and Fallot’s the Member for Pudsey and others can make more than tetralogy. Over the past six years, 304 operations have adequately to the joint committee, which will be able to taken place involving those three specialties. Sadly, the determine the merits of the argument prior to reaching number of patients who died within 30 days was 12, and a decision. I urge the hon. Gentleman to understand 18 died within one year. The results of surgery in all how inappropriate it would be for me to go down the units are good, with no significant divergence. The route of arguing the merits or demerits of one area or issue, however, is the future. We need to prepare for another. units that can deal with these highly complex procedures and the intense technology needed, and provide the Smaller centres struggle to train and mentor junior qualified doctors and nurses involved, in order to keep surgeons, making these units less attractive to the senior up with professional and public expectations of the surgeons of tomorrow and making it difficult to provide high quality of care required. This is not so much about a safe 24-hour service. We must ensure that our surgeons today’s figures as about how we meet the challenges of and their teams are well supported. They need opportunities the future to provide the finest and safest possible care to develop their experience as they become increasingly in this deeply complex area of medical treatment. expert in these intricate and complex procedures. We must ensure that all the hospitals that provide heart The consensus among professional associations is surgery for children can also provide care within safe that there should be no fewer than four congenital medical rotas. surgeons in a centre, each performing between 100 and 125 procedures every year, for a centre to be optimally No parent would wish the care of their child to be staffed. Over the past few years, the outcomes for the entrusted to a surgeon who, though an excellent doctor, services have remained good, as the figures that I have is overly tired because they have had to work around the just given to my right hon. Friend illustrate, but there clock without any peer support. This means that to have been several warning signs that the current reduce the risk of surgery in sick children and to improve arrangements are fragile. For many years, professionals their long-term outcomes, we must focus our surgical and national children’s charities, including the Children’s expertise in larger centres. The need has become ever Heart Federation and the British Heart Foundation, more pressing with the increasing complexity of treatment. have urged the NHS to review services for children with As hon. Members will know, the national review is congenital heart disease. They have consistently raised known as the Safe and Sustainable review. Its aim is to serious concerns about the risks posed by the unsustainable ensure that children’s heart services deliver the very and sub-optimal nature of smaller surgical centres. highest standard of care. The NHS must use its skills 529 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 530 Children Children and resources collectively to gain the best outcomes for Cardiff and Edinburgh have ceased heart surgery on patients. As I stated at the beginning of my speech, in children, as they recognised that their centres were just line with the Government’s entire approach to the NHS, too small to be sustainable. this review is both independent and clinically led. May I I also want to reassure Members on the integrity of reassure hon. Members that the objective of the review the process that was followed in developing the options is not to close children’s heart centres? Far from it. for consultation. In the past, concerns have been put to While surgery may cease in some centres, they will me in this House about mistakes in the assessment continue to provide specialist, non-interventional services process, particularly relating to the Leeds service, and for their local population. Members have referred to that again today. I understand Indeed, the review proposes to extend local care that since our last debate in February or March of this further, supported by the professional associations that year the chair of the joint committee, Sir Neil McKay, support the increased clinical expertise across England. has written to the chief executive of the trust in Leeds This wider support is crucial. Surgery is usually a single, to explain why mistakes have not been made in relation short episode in what is often a lifelong relationship to the Leeds centre. with specialist congenital heart services. The aim is to Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for improve those services as a whole and to ensure that as Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) in his recent intervention, much non-surgical care as possible is delivered as close have also raised the issue of documents not being made to the child’s home as possible through the development available in a sufficiently wide range of languages, thereby of local congenital heart networks. These will enable excluding those who speak those languages from the children to be safely and expertly cared for nearer to consultation process. The relevant documents have for home in the longer term. several weeks been available in 10 different languages, Given the complexity of the issues for consideration, including Urdu, Arabic, Farsi and Punjabi. [Interruption.] the NHS has held a four-month, rather than the usual The hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) three-month, consultation. Hon. Members should be shakes her head, but I assure her that they have been reassured that the consultation process has been impressive available for several weeks, although I accept that in its scope, inclusiveness and transparency. they were not available from the first day of the review. That may be the point the hon. Lady was seeking to Julian Smith: Will the Minister give way? make, and I agree with her if she thinks they should have been from the first day. We cannot change the fact that they were not available from then, however, but Mr Burns: I will, but it will be for the last time. they have been available from, I believe, 20 May, and the consultation process runs until 1 July, which gives Julian Smith: I thank the Minister. Will he comment sufficient time for people who need to access the on the lack of translation of certain consultation documents, documents in those languages to do so and to be able to which has affected many communities, particularly in input their views. and around the Leeds area? I hope to be able to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) on retrieval Mr Burns: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising times and access times from the Isle of Wight, given its that issue, and I will address it later in my speech. unique geographical situation. It is my understanding No decision has yet been made about which centres that the joint committee of primary care trusts has should continue to undertake surgery. That decision agreed that Southampton University Hospitals NHS will be made only after the responses to the consultation Trust has provided evidence on this issue that requires have been properly and fully considered. The chair of further consideration and has invited the trust to develop the joint committee of primary care trusts, Sir Neil a detailed case regarding retrievals from the Isle of McKay, has made it clear that it is a genuine consultation Wight, which the committee will consider as part of the and that all viable proposals will be considered, and I evidence to determine the optimum reconfiguration. agree with that. There has been no pre-determination of Several Members raised the issue of the inclusion of the number of centres that will be selected. Rather, the black and minority ethnic communities in the consultation review remains flexible and open-minded as to the final process. There have been a number of workshops and number and is happy to listen to all options that would focus groups, many of which have been aimed specifically produce the excellent clinical outcomes for our children at the BME communities. Almost 2,000 community that we desire. groups and organisations that have an interest in BME As I have said however, this review is being driven by issues have been contacted and invited to take part in a powerful clinical imperative. The trend in children’s the proceedings. Public meetings have been arranged, heart care is towards increasingly complex surgery on particularly in Leeds, specifically for the Asian population ever-smaller babies. That requires surgical teams that of Yorkshire in partnership with representatives of local are large enough to provide sufficient exposure to complex BME groups. The Leeds meeting is on 29 June, there is cases, so that surgeons and their teams can maintain a meeting planned for Bradford on 30 June and a and develop their specialist skills. Larger teams also further meeting is planned for Kirklees. I hope that hon. provide the capacity to train and mentor the next generation Members who represent parts of Yorkshire and the of surgeons. In recent years, other countries have recognised surrounding catchment areas will be assured by that. the clinical necessity of larger surgical units and have To abide by your rules, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will reconfigured their services along the lines proposed by now conclude by saying that I am confident about the the Safe and Sustainable proposals. Here in the United consultation. Everyone will accept that all consultations Kingdom, there are successful precedents for centralisation. of this nature can be difficult, when tough decisions In the past 15 years, the congenital cardiac services in have to be taken. The decisions have to be taken for the 531 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 532 Children Children [Mr Simon Burns] We need to make sure that there are proper outreach services to give support in future and, as my hon. right reasons, based on clinical evidence about the best Friend the Member for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) said way to improve and enhance care and the quality of earlier, we must recognise that people should have equality care for patients. That is particularly true in this case of access to excellence wherever they are in the country. because more often than not the patients are very young That is important for my constituents. children with very complex needs—that is what makes this issue so difficult. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend Let me reiterate that no decisions have been taken or agree that it seems a little unfortunate that the options will be taken until the joint committee has had an in the consultation would not include the continuation opportunity to consider the independent analysis of the of services at both Leeds and the Freeman hospital in consultation responses, reports from any local overview Newcastle? That was deeply upsetting for parents in the and scrutiny committees and a health impact assessment. communities that both hospitals serve. There is real Throughout, it will remain open-minded and flexible as concern that the excellent heart and lung transplant to the number of centres. The only important consideration service at the Freeman hospital could be jeopardised. will be the sustainability of clinical excellence at the centres chosen. I doubt whether this is the case, but if Nic Dakin: I thank my hon. Friend for that important any hon. Members have not taken part in the consultation point. One of the things illustrated by the debate is that I urge them to do so. I also urge them to ensure that there are many forms of excellent practice, with excellent their constituents and organisations in their constituencies people working across the country in this area of medicine. with an interest in this matter take part in the consultation if they have not already done so, so that the committee Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): It is good to can have the widest range of views, information and be working with the hon. Gentleman on this issue, but opinion before reaching what will, in any circumstances, does he agree that there is a fundamental problem? be difficult decisions. Newcastle performs only 255 procedures, so it needs the Leeds unit to close to reach the 400 figure specified in the review, whereas Leeds can stand on its own. Together, 2.47 pm we have to challenge that premise, because the European Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): It is a pleasure to regulations state that 250 procedures is perfectly safe. follow the Minister, who was very careful in setting out The Newcastle unit is safe and the Leeds unit is safe; how he is attempting to ensure that this process proceeds they are both excellent. Together, we have to challenge in an appropriate way. I was pleased by his comments the review. about the consultation being genuine and about the review being flexible, open-minded and not limited to a Nic Dakin: I thank the hon. Gentleman for those particular set or number of outcomes. His contribution comments. Leeds delivered 316 cardiac operations in was very reassuring and I thank him for that. 2009-10 and 372 in 2010-11, so the numbers meet the I would like to use as my reference point a lady who criteria fairly closely. attended a meeting in Scunthorpe, at the Wortley House I congratulate the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart hotel, for people who have used the Leeds children’s Andrew) on securing the debate. The Minister will have heart unit’s services in recent years. Her use of the heard from his comments that there is still not total service goes back to when it was in Killingbeck hospital confidence in the integrity and transparency of the a long time ago before it moved to Leeds general review. I feel that the Minister has helped to allay those infirmary in 1997. At that point, as has been pointed fears and I am reassured by his saying that the review out, all children’s services were located in one area to will be open, genuine and flexible. I thank him for great positive effect for the children of the Yorkshire putting that message across so strongly. The hon. Member and Humber region. What she said to the people from for Pudsey clearly outlined the concerns, especially the Leeds at that consultation was that she really did not need properly to engage with the ethnic minority mind where the heart surgery locations were, but that community. Although it sounds as though steps have she wanted the very best to be delivered for children in been taken latterly, they ought to have been taken at the need so that they could access the best and most excellent beginning of the process, given the fact that young services. She went on to say that her experience of the people in that community have a higher incidence of Leeds service was such as to give her assurance that it cardiac issues than the rest of the population. would meet those needs. She was particularly concerned I hope that the people conducting the review will hear that proper outreach services should remain in any the excellent comments that have been made by Members future configuration. Her daughter was expecting another on both sides of the House, and from all regions of the child and was already engaged, in relation to her pregnancy, country, during the debate, and that they will think with service support through Leeds, which was going to outside the box, as the hon. Members for Pudsey and make it less likely that there would be significant cardiac for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) said earlier. We problems that could not be dealt with at the appropriate need to be flexible. We do not need to compromise on time and with appropriate effectiveness. clinical excellence or clinical outcomes for children, but In the Scunthorpe area, we tend to be on the periphery we should recognise the need for equality of access to of things, so we always have to travel, in this case to excellence, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Leeds. The weather conditions at the end of last year East said. I hope that our debate will be part of the made it difficult to travel to and from Scunthorpe, and a consultation process that the Minister assures us is two-hour journey with unwell youngsters would have genuine, listening and ongoing, and that it will assist us led to great concern. in reaching an outcome that we can all applaud. 533 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 534 Children Children Several hon. Members rose— core by quality, the population-level risk of closing the second highest-rated paediatric cardiac surgical unit in Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I am the country is truly outweighed by a possibly longer- sure that hon. Members will show time discipline, so than-three-hour retrieval for a small number of potential that we can get as many of them in as we possibly can. patients? Only the joint committee of primary care trusts can make that judgment, and I leave it to do so. I 2.55 pm simply ask that it considers that key variable and wish it George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con): I should the very best in making a decision that, although entirely like briefly to place on the record my grateful thanks to necessary, is bound to upset many people. the 18 highly qualified consultants from Portsmouth who recently wrote to me to express their support for 2.58 pm the Southampton unit. As time is short, rather than Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): I will try to repeating much of what has been already said, I should keep my remarks as brief as possible to allow other hon. like to concentrate solely on one element of the review: Members to have their say. I congratulate my hon. retrieval times and their effect on the volume gateway. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew), who The number of operations that a centre undertakes is secured the debate, and all the other Members who have clearly important to generate wide experience across a supported him. I thank the Backbench Business Committee team and maximise the accumulated wisdom in any for allowing the subject to be debated in the main unit and, crucially, its support services. That seems Chamber. entirely logical and sensible, and it is, of course, at the I shall speak in favour of the motion. I was first very centre of the entire review, but the available volume contacted about the issue shortly after the election, and is crucially affected by one absolutely critical variable: I should like to thank in particular the Russell family in the distances of emergency admissions, or retrieval, as Loughborough for bringing it to my attention. The it is known. review is called Safe and Sustainable for a good reason, The paediatric heart unit closest to my constituency and I entirely endorse the statement that all hon. Members is in Southampton—thus, of course, it has been the probably received from the Little Hearts Matter campaign focus of my attention. I absolutely agree with the point that the review offers a monumental opportunity to made by many hon. Members that we should not let our ensure that every child with a heart problem has access local sympathies cloud our judgment on what is a to the best heart surgery service that this country can national matter, and I hope I have not done so. It is offer. I am sure that that is what we all want. worth pointing out to hon. Members that for many I am, however, concerned by a few comments made constituents in Meon Valley, my constituency, the reality by Opposition Members and in a recent article in is that the loss of the Southampton unit would not be a The Times, which seemed to question why MPs felt the huge disadvantage. The change would result in their need to defend their local services whenever a becoming clients of the Evelina children’s hospital at reconfiguration is suggested. That is a misunderstanding Guy’s and St Thomas’s—hardly a poor alternative for of the role of 21st century Members of Parliament, them—but we should notice that the insistence that a however long ago they were elected. We are here to three-hour, road-based retrieval time for emergency speak up on behalf of our constituents. I am sure that admissions should act as part of the gateway excludes all hon. Members here today and those who cannot be certain parts of the south-west and south Wales from here have been contacted by constituents who are concerned Southampton’s potential catchment. Initially and puzzlingly, about their access or that of their children and as we have also heard, the Isle of Wight was also grandchildren—those born and not yet born—to heart excluded, but that seems to have been sorted out, for surgery should the need arise. It is absolutely our duty which we are all grateful. to stand up for that and to ask whether the review and Why is this important? Simply because Southampton the options are right. However, I am very pleased that, has the second highest score for quality in the country as a Member of Parliament, I am not the one making at 513 points, with the Evelina at the top of the list with the final decisions. 535 points. Although I genuinely do not believe that it is As I said, I support option A, as do my right hon. the place of elected politicians to wade in every time Friend the Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) and that the NHS wants to reconfigure local services, I am the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jon Ashworth). I concerned that the review is likely to result in the loss of am sure that, although the hon. Member for Leicester one of the very best heart units in the country. West (Liz Kendall) will focus on the national perspective, We have been told that quality was presumed to be she will manage to get in a reference to Glenfield the overall driver of the review and that quality trumped hospital somewhere in her concluding remarks. That geographical proximity and convenience. So the decision hospital serves my constituents extremely well and I am to include the Southampton unit, which is rated second in awe and admiration of those who work there—the in the country for quality, in only one option must be surgeons, those who run intensive care units, all the regarded as running counter to the core principles of nurses, and the many staff who packed the Walkers the decision-making process. I fear that the panel may stadium for two consultation meetings last Thursday. choose to lose one of the highest-quality options available Option A is the highest scoring option and the most in favour of a lower-quality alternative, for reasons that cost-effective. do not necessarily stand up when looked at closely. In the time available I want to talk about a topic that I believe that those who are tasked with making the the hon. Member for Leicester South touched on—the decision need to satisfy themselves that the overall ECMO services at Glenfield hospital. The hospital treated three-hour road retrieval criterion is truly as crucial as it many of the patients who had swine flu over the winter, seems. Can it really be right that, in a review driven at its and the national leaders of the NHS said that the 535 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 536 Children Children [Nicky Morgan] recognise 100% that, since the recommendations from the Bristol inquiry were published a decade ago, professional nation owed Leicester a debt of gratitude for the work bodies and patient groups involved in children’s heart that it had done with ECMO. My worry about the care have been united in pressing for changes in the review—if option A were successful, I would not have organisation of services to drive up the quality of this worry—is that we have a clinically excellent service treatment. in ECMO and I do not want to see that jeopardised in The Safe and Sustainable review states its main aim any way. As has been said, if the children’s ECMO as providing service is moved, that will inevitably have an impact on the adult ECMO services. We should be very careful in “excellent care for children with congenital heart disease”. this country about not respecting such clinically excellent I have yet to meet one person who disagrees with that services. We should allow them to continue in places statement, but I have met many who take issue with where the staff are already well trained and well versed how we are trying to get there. Each speaker this afternoon and offer a service of national importance. has in mind the children’s heart centre serving their My final point, which the Minister addressed—I am constituents and many of us, myself included, will no grateful to him—is about translation. There are a large doubt make points in support of the option containing number of ethnic minority people in Leicester and in their unit. That is fair enough. As my hon. Friend the my constituency of Loughborough. My right hon. Friend Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan) said, we the Minister generously acknowledged the fact that it are MPs and would not be representing our constituents would have been helpful if the documents had been if we did anything less. translated earlier. The question posed by hon. Members However, for me it is not all about my backyard. The in the debate is whether that impacts on the fairness of points I have to make about Southampton have a wider the review and the way the process has been carried out. purpose and illustrate the bigger picture. During the That is clearly for others to judge. It will be interesting past few months, Members from across the House have to see how many people reply using documents that listened to one another speak on the subject and heard have been translated. the arguments ring one or two bells. For me, that The timeline in the consultation document shows moment came in the Adjournment debate that my hon. that the process has been going on for a long time, so it Friend the Member for Pudsey secured in March. That should not have been beyond the wit of man or of the is what brought us together. As so often happens in this review committee to realise that many of the services House, disparate parts come together to form something are located in areas where there are high ethnic minority much bigger. populations, and that those documents should have It is true that some campaigns in other parts of the been translated early enough to make sure that members country have been bigger and more muscular than of those populations could play their full part in making others. It is also true that the campaign based around their views heard. the so-called option B, which is to retain children’s heart Several hon. Members rose— surgery at Southampton, has been enormous by any measure. Its momentum flows directly from the fact Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. If hon. that 17 weeks ago, when the options were published, the Members speak for just under four minutes, everyone second-best children’s heart unit in the country was will get in. given only a one-in-four chance of survival. I want to be crystal clear that the team from Southampton supported 3.2 pm the Safe and Sustainable review taking place and, on balance, still does, but it was shocked to the core to Mr Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I begin by learn that a process that is about quality could put one congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey of the world’s top centres on such a sticky wicket. (Stuart Andrew). There have been some interesting moments in the past week and I know he has enjoyed This week I received the final submission from the every minute of it. Hampshire health overview and scrutiny committee to the joint committee of primary care trusts. The opening I want to be clear from the outset that I have never paragraph does not pull any punches: called and am not calling for the Safe and Sustainable review to be stopped or even paused. The Children’s “Given that it has taken over a decade to reach this point, our Heart Federation said to me this week, as it said to observation is that the overarching objectives of this exercise—to many Members: improve the quality of these services for children—has been lost in an adversarial and divisive consultation exercise which has “We urge MPs countrywide to support the need for change focused predominantly on defending the process and not on and fight for the highest quality national children’s heart service.” delivering the desired outcome.” I could not agree more and I could not have put it better My fear is that Sir Ian Kennedy’s feared “mediocrity” is myself. In the words of Sir Ian Kennedy, whom Members exactly the outcome that we are in danger of delivering know well: unless those leading the process change their focus. The “Mediocrity must not be our benchmark for the future.” scrutiny committee also said: Spot on, again. “The responses to issues raised by clinicians, parents and other On that point, let me take head-on the inevitable stakeholders seem to reflect a preoccupation by those driving comments in some of today’s newspapers. Intellectually ‘Safe and Sustainable’ with defending the process against legal the case for change is compelling and, to be clear, I am challenge rather than securing the prize of better quality care for not co-sponsoring today’s debate out of political or these patients. This is not acceptable or in the interests of the personal interest. For me, today is about getting us back patients affected.” to a point where the focus of the review is on quality. I That puts it very well. 537 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 538 Children Children The Isle of Wight factor is fast moving centre stage in members who have to make terrifying treatment decisions, the Southampton campaign. My hon. Friend the Member and by siblings who have to accept that home life is on for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) spoke with his usual force hold while parents go to and from hospital and everyone on the subject, so there is no need to say any more on it, concentrates only on keeping that child alive. That is other than to say that it is not too late in this regard and what parents do for their children. It is what they that the Safe and Sustainable team is listening carefully sacrifice and do without hesitation, because nothing to the island’s arguments. matters more than bringing that child home again, Finally, I will be supporting the motion because it happy and healthy, so that everything can get back to clearly welcomes the aim of sustaining the provision of normal. No matter how freely they give that care, services based around quality. Above all—this is the key however, caring for a child with congenital heart disease part that we worked so hard to include in the motion—I puts massive stresses on parents and siblings, and the support the call for the joint committee not to restrict outcome of the review should also try to relieve that itself to the four options outlined in the review document. pressure, if at all possible. A case can be made for options A, B, C or D, but it can That is not just a moral argument; paediatric patient also be made for E and F. I ask it to bear that in mind as outcomes improve when carers cope better. I know that it goes forward to the end of the process on 1 July. Ministers believe that the best possible surgical outcome is the best way to help families, but families who come 3.8 pm to see me are worried that they will not be able to get to the hospital for the surgery in the first place; that there Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con): will be longer waiting lists; that they will not have I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for continuous care under surgeons whom they can trust Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on his leadership in securing with their child’s life; that staff at units that close will the debate. I open my remarks by paying tribute to not be able to move to those that scale up; that we Oxford’s paediatric cardiac team, including Professor will lose dedicated people from the NHS; and that there Steve Westaby. The team have saved countless lives and will be a shortfall in service while new staff are trained have the complete confidence of the patients and families up. All those concerns are just as valid and significant who have asked me to speak up for them today. I also as ensuring that the surgeon has the necessary skill once pay tribute to the Young Hearts charity, which has he gets the patient on to the operating table. stood up for children with congenital heart disease and their families in Oxfordshire and presented a petition, The irony is that, while the Safe and Sustainable which I am holding in my hands, with thousands of options are causing that concern, Oxford and Southampton signatures to the Prime Minister in his constituency this already have an option that is working as we speak. The month. They have done much to assure services in south of England congenital heart network offers the Oxfordshire. quality guarantees of an increase in clinical team size Few would take issue with the basic aims of the Safe and patient base which Safe and Sustainable seeks, and Sustainable review; who does not want to improve while creating and retaining the continuity of care and outcomes for children with congenital heart disease? patient access that local clinicians and patients fear That is not where the concerns lie. The review works on losing. That network was developed and is led by clinical a simple premise: more surgeons doing more surgeries teams at Oxford and Southampton; it has five congenital will achieve better outcomes for more patients. That heart surgeons and nine consultant paediatric cardiologists; makes perfect sense, but in this instance, as the motion and it is the first time that two teaching hospitals have states, size is not everything. Although the simple collaborated to provide joint tertiary clinical service. centralisation of specialist services is backed by clinical That is exactly the kind of networking arrangement evidence, some clinicians in Oxford, Southampton and that Safe and Sustainable aspires to create, but the elsewhere are of the opinion that it draws on too narrow network puts the patient first, not the surgeon. It makes an evidentiary base and that matters such as the co-location the best use of existing services but does not require of services, assessed travel and population projections extensive restructuring of human or physical resources; must also be considered. it addresses the problems of waiting times, travel times On co-location, for example, a 2008 Department of and co-location which Safe and Sustainable has failed Health report states that cardiac surgery requires the to address; and, most importantly, it has been tried and absolute co-location of paediatric cardiology, paediatric tested for more than a year. critical care, specialist paediatric anaesthetics, specialist There is a risk that Safe and Sustainable will be seen paediatric surgery and specialist paediatric ear, nose as a top-down, inherited review, so a locally innovative and throat services. Even though Safe and Sustainable system such as that network, which is supported by states that the co-location of those services should be local heart groups, supported by local clinicians and mandatory, it is not clear how the four proposed options clinically driven, is something that the Government meet the standards of the framework of critical should seek to support. interdependencies or, for that matter, the standards of Safe and Sustainable itself. I hope that the Minister will note those grave concerns, which patient groups, families 3.13 pm and clinicians have expressed, and will ensure that the John Glen (Salisbury) (Con): In view of the time, I joint committee of primary care trusts takes the process will be as brief as possible. I thank my hon. Friend the forward, clarifying the issue of the co-location of service Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for initiating this and properly and transparently communicating that debate, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for clarification to those groups. Winchester (Mr Brine), who has provided much sound A child with congenital heart disease does not exist in advice and support as we have brought this case to the isolation. He or she is cared for tirelessly by family House. 539 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 540 Children Children [John Glen] of Leeds. Sadly, that community has inherent heart problems. That has been overlooked, and it needs to be Two issues about the calculation of quality have given weight in the review. come to my attention through my constituents Joanne We have heard about many of the flaws in the review. Diaper and Richard Maguire. Southampton scored The Minister rightly says that he does not have any extremely well, but I am concerned about the differences influence over the review, which is independent, and as between the various hospitals and how they have scored. individual MPs we probably do not have much influence If there is a range of difference of up to 20% on over it either. What we do have, however, is this place. outcomes, I am concerned that the review could Twenty-four hours ago, we were knocking nine bells out institutionalise mediocrity, not excellence. of each other. It was raucous and it was fun; we made There is a consensus throughout the medical world some serious points and we were having a go. Today, that, as the Children’s Heart Foundation chief executive from across the Chamber, some very serious speeches says, have been made. No matter which side of the House we “the majority of parents recognise that paediatric cardiac surgery are on, politics does not come into it. This House is is a specialist service,” speaking as with one voice, and that voice should be heard by the people carrying out the review. and that there will need to be some rationalisation nationally. She goes on to say that parents When Members of a House such as ours, which can be so confrontational, all come together, that shows the “support the concept of larger but fewer centres of excellence”— real power of our parliamentary democracy. Although not of centres that are quite good but could become the Minister, and we as individuals, may not have any better over time. Given the complexity of the procedures direct influence on this process, it would be extremely that need to be undertaken, it behoves those reviewing foolish for the people involved not to take note that we the decision to note excellence and to embed it in future will almost certainly not divide on the motion and that provision. We need to drive up standards in areas that we all support it, including the Minister himself and the do not have excellence. Government. My constituents are always asking whether Some clinical experts may move to the other side of we can work together, and we can. Everyone has come the country, or perhaps to another country altogether. together to say that the House of Commons says that Most parents of chronically sick children with conditions the review needs to be looked at again and other options that can be treated only by two or three specialists will need to be developed. That is a powerful message that I travel any distance because they want to know that they want to go forth to the people who are carrying out the have the best chance of having their children’s lives review. extended. The motion makes a sensible case in recognising the need for partnerships, and I welcome the partnership 3.19 pm that exists between Southampton and Oxford. Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) It was announced in the Safe and Sustainable pre- (Con): I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the consultation business case that 400 surgeries constituted Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) on securing this a minimum threshold, but the mix could be extended to debate. I thank the Minister for his important comments include surgery on adults as well as children. It is vital on and support for the motion. to look at what is clinically the right thing to do instead of imposing a threshold that seems convenient but does I feel strongly that there should be a change in the not do justice to the skills that exist in individual configuration of children’s cardiac surgery, but it must hospitals. create the right configuration. We want the correct answer to the question, and we want the review team to In the interests of time, I will now conclude my listen to all the arguments and make its decision based remarks to allow some of my colleagues to make, I on the best possible evidence. I argue strongly, representing hope, some different points. as I do part of the city of Southampton, that when we are looking at the important issue of children’s cardiac surgery, we must base our decision on quality. 3.16 pm I have been in regular contact with a constituent of Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con): I will mine, Mr Jim Monro, whose name will be familiar to all try to be brief to allow as many of my colleagues as Members who have investigated this matter because he possible to speak. is one of the country’s most eminent cardiac surgeons. I do not want to take up too much time in defending He is now retired. He first conducted a review into the case for Leeds because that has been done exceptionally children’s cardiac surgery after the tragedies in Bristol well by many others. Like me, a good number of the in the 1990s. He feels strongly that he has seen this Leeds MPs who now occupy this place were city councillors matter kicked into the long grass for too long. We must there, including my hon. Friends the Members for Leeds crack on and ensure that the review is completed. North West (Greg Mulholland) and for Pudsey (Stuart However, it must take into account the best available Andrew) and the hon. Member for Leeds East evidence and come up with the right outcome. None of (Mr Mudie)—a distinguished leader of Leeds council us wishes to see a recurrence of the dreadful tragedies in who was very much involved in achieving our aim of Bristol. That is where the roots of the review lie. having the children’s hospital all in one place. As Leeds Although I support the need for the review, I do not councillors, we had personal experience of this matter endorse the process, nor the recommendations in their when one of our colleagues died of heart disease in his entirety. I question three elements in particular. early thirties. He was from the black and minority Fundamentally, the review must be about quality. We ethnic community, which makes up 23% of the population have to ensure that the best outcomes are achieved for 541 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 542 Children Children the very sickest babies and children. However, the The second principle is locality. The unit is within Southampton unit, which has a superb record of outcomes, two hours’ travel time for nearly 14 million people, finds itself in only one option—option B, the so-called including 5.5 million in the Yorkshire and Humber quality option. I cannot believe that that is right for one area. In such highly populated areas, surely the focus of the highest performing units in the country. It carries should be on delivering services to the people and out difficult procedures, does not cherry-pick cases delivering them to the greatest area of need, not vice where the best outcomes are likely, has proved that it versa. In my view, the location of the unit and the huge can work collaboratively with Oxford, is widely number of children whom it serves make its continued acknowledged to be one of the best units in the country, existence imperative. and already has three surgeons, with a fourth starting The review document states that parents need not shortly. I have heard colleagues describe it as a perverse accompany their children. I have two young children outcome that one of the country’s top performing units myself. What parents would not want to accompany is included in only one option, in which postcode matters their children in such difficult circumstances? Sadly, more than the life chances of the sickest babies. however, that is not always possible. There are child care Secondly, and I will not rehearse this argument at arrangements to be made, and work issues and transport great length, there is the additional complication of the links to be considered. The stress of all that is extremely Isle of Wight. My hon. Friend the Member for Isle of disturbing for all families in such circumstances. I realise Wight (Mr Turner) has informed us of that issue clearly. that that applies to all the centres, not just Leeds, but I People from Southampton want an answer to that believe that we must take account of the core principles: question. Six weeks ago at a consultation meeting, they the need to deliver services to the people, and the need were promised that more information would be forthcoming to provide easy access for as many as possible. That from the review team about how significant the Isle of means locating services in highly populated areas with Wight factor was. We are still waiting. good transport links and travel times. Birmingham and Thirdly, the manner in which the consultation is Liverpool have been included in every option in the being conducted has created an adversarial climate in review, and rightly so, but why has Leeds not been which cardiac unit is put against cardiac unit and identified in the same way on the basis of those core surgeon is put against surgeon. I feared that today we principles? would see MP against MP, but we have not. As my hon. Friend the Member for Elmet and Rothwell (Alec 3.26 pm Shelbrooke) said, this has been a collaborative debate that has picked up on the strengths of each case. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): The review document is called “Safe and Sustainable”, and that is I welcome the spirit in which this House has responded absolutely the right title for it. It is worth repeating what to the motion. has been said by every speaker today, and by the clinical leadership of the review: this is about saving lives, not 3.22 pm about saving money. We must bear in mind the link Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): Like many Members, between scale and quality and between quality and I have a local heart unit that I shall seek to defend. safety. The “scale” factor applies to the level of the However, before discussing the merits of retaining the number of procedures per surgeon per year and to the Leeds unit, it is important to acknowledge the wider number of surgeons per unit. The challenge was summed context of the debate. up best by the statement from the Royal College of I strongly believe that the Safe and Sustainable review Surgeons, to which the right hon. Member for Oxford is a necessary and genuine exercise. Its aim is to ensure East (Mr Smith) referred, that although the country has that the highest possible level of surgical care is provided the right number of surgeons carrying out these complex to each and every affected child, regardless of where operations, they are too thinly spread. Change is clearly they live. There is no doubt that the case for change is needed. medically accepted. Nevertheless, I believe that decisions Coincidentally, in the last three weeks my family has over the potential closure of local health services cannot had occasion to rely on the paediatric intensive care and should not be taken lightly. In light of the huge units and surgery at Southampton General hospital, in amount of evidence behind the motion, I urge the the constituency of the hon. Member for Southampton, review’s steering group to take as much time as possible Test (Dr Whitehead), where we benefited from outstanding in considering the performance, locality, capacity and care. This was not heart surgery, but the experience gave strength of each unit, among other factors. me plenty of cause to reflect on the value of not just On the basis of those four criteria, I strongly believe convenience and location but, above all, quality of care. that closing the Leeds unit would be a huge mistake. In such circumstances, families will do what they have The first and most important factor is performance. to do, although it may be very difficult, and will find a Leeds general infirmary is at the forefront of work on way of securing care of the highest quality. The experience cardiac conditions. All the relevant reviews and statistics also taught me something about the interconnection highlight its record of excellence in providing safe and between services. high-quality children’s heart surgery. An important All the criteria set out in the review document have a contributing factor in that excellence is the centralisation role to play, but in my view the most important criterion of the whole children’s services operation at the site in of all must be quality, and I do not think that that Leeds. However, the review document contains discrepancies comes across as much as it should in the review. How when it comes to the definition of co-location of services. can it, given that the centre that is ranked second out of To me, co-location means all children’s services operating the 11 in the country for quality appears in only one of on a single site, and Leeds is one of only two hospitals the four options? The question also arises, in the context cited in the review that offer that gold standard. of Southampton General hospital, of whether—given 543 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 544 Children Children [Damian Hinds] I am aware of the very short time available, so I cannot say most of what I would have liked to say, but the role of scale and quality—sufficient consideration my final point is that under the proposals we could end has been given to the most recent trends since the up in the rather odd situation that some of my constituents suspension of paediatric cardiac surgery at the John could be served by one centre and others by another. Radcliffe hospital. Given that they are all in the same health trust area, Other factors have also not been given sufficient that could mean different services being provided to weight. First, there is the requirement for co-location of different constituents. paediatric surgery with other essential services for children. Secondly, there is the impact on paediatric intensive Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): To speak for care units, paediatric intensive care retrieval, and the 10 minutes, I call the shadow Minister, Liz Kendall. other networks mentioned by the right hon. Member for Oxford East. Thirdly, there are the implications for 3.32 pm services that provide longer-lasting care for people with cardiac conditions from birth to adulthood. Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab): It is a real privilege to take part in today’s debate, and to follow the thoughtful, Our objective must not be to stall or jam the process, moving and at times passionate speeches of Members because there is a need to reduce the number of centres. of all parties. I thank the Backbench Business Committee, We must avoid the politician’s tendency to say that of and I particularly thank the hon. Member for Pudsey course we agree the general principles of the review, (Stuart Andrew) for securing the debate. except in the particular circumstances that apply to our own constituency. I hope I have not done that, but I do Like the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), think that Southampton has a particularly strong case I wear two hats today. As the Member for Leicester based on the excellence of its clinical record. I strongly West, home of Glenfield hospital’s superb congenital support the drive for us not to be restricted only to the heart centre, I know how important the review of children’s four options in the review, considering the additional heart surgery is for my constituents, as it is for those of evidence that has come to light during its course. each of the hon. Members who have spoken. As the Opposition spokesperson, however, I am also well aware of my national responsibility, and that of the House, to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): To resume his ensure that every child gets the very best quality of care. seat at 3.32 pm, I call Mr Percy. I want to start by making the case for change, as did other Members including my hon. Friends the Members 3.30 pm for Liverpool, West Derby (Stephen Twigg) and for Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): Outrageous, North West Durham (Pat Glass), my right hon. Friend Mr Deputy Speaker! But obviously accepted. the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon I associate myself with many of the comments of my Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), who made brave fellow Yorkshire and the Humber MPs, particularly my and courageous speeches. near neighbour the hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Nic Dakin). I want to mention a couple of issues raised by Following the devastating findings of the Bristol our local health trust, which is opposing anything other Royal infirmary inquiry almost 10 years ago, clinicians than option D very strongly. Indeed, North Lincolnshire and professional bodies have been clear that children’s council’s scrutiny committee met to discuss the matter heart services need to change to ensure that every child on Tuesday and similarly supports that option, which gets the best standard of care now, and crucially also in would help to maintain the Leeds unit. That is not the future. They include the Royal College of Surgeons, simply because it is our local centre. My constituents the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of have to travel a considerable distance to get to Leeds, as Paediatrics and Child Health, the Society for Cardiothoracic it is not exactly next door. It is okay for some of us, but Surgery, the British Congenital Cardiac Association, it is quite some distance for my constituents over in the Paediatric Intensive Care Society and many others. Brigg, in particular. The reason why services need to change is that children’s heart surgery is becoming ever more sophisticated. My constituents accept the regionalisation of health Technological advances mean that care is increasingly services when it is of proven benefit. That is so in the specialised and capable of saving more lives and improving case of adult cardiac services, which are currently provided outcomes for very sick children. However, services in in Hull, and the same applies to children’s cardiac England have grown up in an ad hoc manner. As my services. However, if we are to go down the route of right hon. Friend the Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith) regionalisation and big centres, it seems sensible to put said, surgeons are too thinly spread. Care needs to be services where the population is rather than try to move better planned to pool expertise in specialist centres so the population to where the clinicians are. that all children get excellent quality care. I therefore I wish to quote a couple of points that my local welcome the Safe and Sustainable review, which was health trust has made. It has stated: initiated by the previous Government. The challenge, as “Leeds has the largest population centre and therefore it is the House has rightly demonstrated today, is to ensure most sensible to ask fewer patients to travel the least distance”. that the right aims, objectives and criteria drive the As I said earlier, the conclusion of the North Lincolnshire review, and, crucially, that they have the right weighting and Goole Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust was that it and that the right balance is struck. believed babies, children and families in north Lincolnshire Of course, improving the quality of care must be our would largely be disadvantaged in their access by the primary concern. The review rightly calls for fewer, proposed changes. larger surgical centres to provide 24/7 consultant cover, 545 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 Congenital Cardiac Services for 546 Children Children and seeks to ensure that surgeons treat a sufficient and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) said, making families number of patients with a sufficient variety of problems travel further than they already travel would make such to ensure that they have the best possible skills. a difficult time even harder for them, especially if they The review also recommends the development of must also hold down a job or care for other children. congenital heart networks, so that care is better co-ordinated The difficult balance between specialising services in at all stages of a child’s life, and that assessments and some areas but ensuring fair access is the crucial issue ongoing care can be provided closer to where patients for the review. live. However, as several hon. Members have said, the review cannot look at children’s heart surgery services Mr Dorrell: The hon. Lady is making an important in isolation; it must also fully consider the knock-on point about access being one of the quality characteristics effect on other specialties at the hospitals in question. that need to be taken into account in making these As my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South decisions. However, does she agree that the Safe and (Jon Ashworth) and the hon. Member for Loughborough Sustainable work programme has taken that into account? (Nicky Morgan) rightly said, the work of Glenfield It was one of the key factors it took into account in children’s heart surgery centre is closely linked with its making its recommendations and drawing its conclusions extra corporeal membrane oxygenation service. ECMO on the relative merits of these units. helps patients with reduced heart or lung functions to have complex surgery that they might not otherwise Liz Kendall: The right hon. Gentleman makes an survive. Glenfield is the country’s leading specialist important point, but hon. Members have said that they ECMO centre, and trains and supports other services feel the issue was given insufficient weighting. At the nationally and internationally. There is real concern at Leicester consultation, one parent said to me, “If we’d the possibility that that service will be moved to anther known that all the services were safe”, as the review has hospital, because of the time that it would take to build said, “we might have placed more importance on the up expertise elsewhere. Not only does it take up to issue.” 18 months to train new specialist nurses, but it takes The affordability issue has not been mentioned. Hon. many years to develop equivalent experience. Members will, I am sure, be as one in saying that the Ensuring high quality care is not just about surgery review must be driven by the need to improve the standards or links with other specialisms. The wider quality of care, not by reducing costs. However, it is help and support that families get from doctors and important to recognise, particularly in these financially nurses are vital. I was genuinely moved when hon. constrained times, that significant costs are associated Members spoke of their conversations with parents and with all the current, and likely future, options in the staff in their centres. Time and again, parents emphasise review. That needs to be taken into account. the communication skills of staff, and their ability to In conclusion, changing how we provide any hospital explain diagnoses and procedures simply and clearly, at service is difficult, but when changes are necessary to what is often a frightening and worrying time. improve patient care, as I believe they are for children’s Parents at Glenfield tell me that staff are like members congenital heart services, the House must have the of their families—they can ring day or night if they courage to make them happen. Hon. Members have have any concerns. Such familiarity and trust is crucial, rightly raised a range of concerns on behalf of their and it links to the issue of providing ongoing help and constituents, but I am sure we would all agree that the support, which many hon. Members mentioned. When final decision must be made by clinicians on the basis of children who have had heart surgery grow up, they have evidence, not on political considerations. I hope that the to deal with difficult issues such as whether they can joint committee will seriously consider the points raised have children. Many families are understandably concerned in this debate and then make final recommendations in about having to build new relationships with a different patients’ best interests. team of doctors and nurses if their local centre closes. It is vital that the review look closely at the links between 3.41 pm child and adult congenital heart services, but it has Stuart Andrew: I thank everyone who has taken part probably paid insufficient attention to that so far. I in this debate, which I think all will agree has been very hope and believe that that will change before the review good and knowledgeable. Members have spoken concludes. passionately in favour of their units. The right hon. As well as stressing the importance of the quality of Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) clinical care, many hon. Members stressed the importance and the hon. Members for North Durham (Mr Jones) of ensuring fair access to services. We heard passionate and for North West Durham (Pat Glass) spoke passionately speeches about that from my hon. Friends the Members in favour of the Freeman hospital. The right hon. for Leeds East (Mr Mudie) and for Scunthorpe (Nic Member for Oxford East (Mr Smith), the hon. Member Dakin). Accessibility matters, because time is of the for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) and my hon. essence when seriously ill children need to get to heart Friends the Members for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner), for surgery centres in life-or-death situations, as the hon. Poole (Mr Syms), for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery), Members for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) and for Winchester (Mr Brine), for Oxford West and Abingdon for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) rightly said. (Nicola Blackwood), for Salisbury (John Glen), for However, travel times also matter to families who Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) need ongoing care and support. My hon. Friend the and for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) spoke in Member for North West Durham rightly said that favour of Southampton. My hon. Friend the Member many parents would travel to the ends of the earth for for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands) spoke for the their children, but as the hon. Members for Leeds Royal Brompton—I do not think I am going to get North West (Greg Mulholland) and for Oxford West through all these. 547 Congenital Cardiac Services for 23 JUNE 2011 548 Children [Stuart Andrew] Wild Animals (Circuses)

The fact is that this debate has got to the heart of the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Ihaveto matter. We have discussed the issues that parents and announce that Mr Speaker has not selected the amendment. patients have been talking about, but also the concerns that clinicians have been talking about. It is important 3.44 pm that we hear those. We heard concerns that if this review does not happen, there could be another Bristol Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I beg to move, baby tragedy. However, it was reassuring to hear that That this House directs the Government to use its powers the units we have are safe. We just need to make them under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to introduce a sustainable. regulation banning the use of all wild animals in circuses to take effect by 1 July 2012. In conclusion, this has been a most excellent debate. I am sure that the Safe and Sustainable team have been I would like to record my thanks to all the members listening to Members on both sides of the House. of the Backbench Business Committee for the opportunity Above all, what has been brilliant about the debate has to raise this important issue. I would also like to thank been the reassurance from the Minister that the Safe the Clerks for all their helpful advice and assistance in and Sustainable review is now flexible over the options preparation for today’s debate. and should be flexible over the number of units. That It has been an interesting few days. It remains a will mean a lot to the people who have been campaigning mystery why the Government have mounted such a so hard on this issue, and it shows that a Backbench concerted operation to stop a vote on this motion, or Business debate can work and make a real difference. indeed a vote on any amendment that would allow a Resolved, ban on wild animals in circuses. I was flexible on amendments. That this House notes the review led by the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts into the reconfiguration of children’s heart surgery; welcomes its aim of establishing a more sustainable Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): Will the provision of congenital cardiac services in England which has hon. Gentleman give way on that point? strong support from professional associations and patient groups; notes that concerns have been expressed during consultation on Mark Pritchard: I am going to take only two the proposals; calls on the review to take full account of accurate interventions, but all right. assessed travel and population projections, the views of ethnic minority communities affected, evidence supporting the co-location of children’s services, and the need for patients and their families Mr MacShane: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. to access convenient services; and therefore calls on the Joint Will he confirm that he and his Conservative colleagues Committee not to restrict itself to the four options outlined in the who are in favour of helping the lions and the tigers review but instead to consider further options in making its final have been put under pressure not just by the lance recommendations. corporals of the Whips Office, but directly from No. 10, the heart of Government? What is it with our Prime Minister that he should have no affection for the lions and tigers waiting to be released from caged imprisonment?

Mark Pritchard: All I can say is that 64% of Members of this House support a ban on wild animals in circuses. I cannot speak for the Prime Minister; he can speak for himself. It has been an interesting week. This is a Government who have said from the outset that they want to reassert the authority of Parliament. This is a Government who have said that they want to listen to people. Some 92% of the British public want a ban on wild animals in circuses. More than 200 Members of this House have signed an early-day motion supporting a ban, and in a YouGov poll for Dods, 64% of Members of this House said that they want a ban, so why are the Government not listening to the will of this House and, more importantly, the will of the people?

Mr Don Foster (Bath) (LD): On the hon. Gentleman’s point about the Government wanting to reassert the importance of this House, will he explain why they still appear to be claiming that Europe could somehow intervene and prevent us from acting? Will he also confirm that the relevant commissioner said only a few days ago that responsibility for the welfare of circus animals remains in this country, with this House?

Mark Pritchard: My hon. Friend makes an accurate and pertinent point, which, if I may, I would like to address later. 549 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 550

I want to focus on the interesting past few days. On Mark Pritchard: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Monday, in return for amending my motion, dropping Today, this country has three travelling circuses with it or not calling a vote on it—and we are not talking a total of 39 wild animals, including zebras, tigers, lions about a major defence issue, an economic issue or and camels. Until the recent exposure of the brutality public sector reform; we are talking about the ban on with which Annie the elephant was treated, there were wild animals in circuses—I was offered a reward, an also elephants, but there are now no elephants in circuses incentive. If I had amended my motion and not called in England. Let us remember that this measure applies for a ban, I would have been offered a job. [HON. to England only. I give credit to the Scottish National MEMBERS: “Ooh!”] Not as a Minister, so those who are party for possibly moving towards a ban in Scotland. competing should not panic. It was a pretty trivial job, like most of the ones I have had—at least, probably, The trouble with the Government’s proposed licensing until 30 minutes from now. I was offered incentive and scheme is that it would create a new generation of reward on Monday, and then it was ratcheted, until last animals that could be imported. It would give a green night, when I was threatened. I had a call from the light to new imports. We might not have any elephants Prime Minister’s office directly. I was told that the left in our circuses now, but we would certainly have Prime Minister himself had said that unless I withdrew some if the new licensing regime came into effect. My this motion, he would look upon it very dimly indeed. concern is shared by 92% of the public, and there are Well, I have a message for the Whips and for the very few public policy areas that attract that support. I Prime Minister of our country—I did not pick a fight am concerned about the cruel and cramped conditions with the Prime Minister of our country, but I have a in the housing and transportation of these wild animals. message. I might be just a little council house lad from Countries including Singapore, Bolivia, Israel and Hungary a very poor background, but that background gives me have banned the use of wild animals in circuses. Many a backbone, it gives me a thick skin, and I am not going of those circuses are commercially successful. I should The to kowtow to the Whips or even the Prime Minister of also like to pay tribute to the media, especially Independent Sunday Express my country on an issue that I feel passionately about and the , which have and on which I have conviction. There might be some campaigned on the issue for many years. people with other backbones in this place, on our side I want to address the specifics of the Government’s and the other side, who will speak later, but we need a proposal for licensing. It is well intentioned, but it will generation of politicians with a bit of spine, not jelly. I not improve animal welfare. It would be difficult to will not be bullied by any of the Whips. This is an issue monitor, implement and enforce. The licensing regime on which I have campaigned for many years. In the would also be very costly; it could cost taxpayers more previous Parliament I had an Adjournment debate and than £1 million. An unintended consequence of the I spoke in the passage of the Animal Welfare Act 2006. regime could be inadvertently to legitimise the import I have consistently campaigned on this issue, and I will of new animals and continue the use and, I believe, not kowtow to unnecessary, disproportionate pressure. exploitation of wild animals in circuses. Are colleagues really prepared to vote for that today? Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Will my hon. Friend Some of my colleagues have quite legitimately give way? approached me to say, “I don’t really believe in banning things.” I take a similar approach, but I like to look at Mark Pritchard: I am sorry, but I am afraid that I each case on its merits and take each issue case by case. cannot give way because I have very limited time, although If we followed the logic that we do not like to ban I am sure that it would have been a wonderful intervention anything, the House would not have banned bear-baiting, from my hon. Friend, as they usually are. badger-baiting or dog fighting. Perhaps we would also The fact is that we are now in a place that I hoped we not have banned carrying knives in a public place, or could have avoided. I tried to co-operate. Even last even slavery. night in the Lobby, I spoke to the Whips and said, Some myths have been put about prior to this debate. “Perhaps we can amend the motion”— It has been said that passing this motion would result in the end of zoos. That is not right; the motion would not Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): On a affect zoos. It has also been claimed that it would put an point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Are we actually end to falconry, but that is not right either. It would not going to get on to the substance of the debate at any affect falconry. It relates only to wild animals, some of point, rather than discussing my hon. Friend’s— which I have listed. The definition of a wild animal is a [Interruption.] species that does not originate in the British isles. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I know Concern has also been expressed in the Department that Mr Pritchard is now going to move on to the for Culture, Media and Sport about the effect of the substance of the motion before the House. motion on the entertainment industry. I reassure the House that it would not have an impact on the film and Mr MacShane: Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy television industries. Paragraphs 34 and 37 of the Speaker. Is there anything more important than a Member Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’ of this House being allowed to speak as he wishes and regulatory impact assessment state that travelling circus not being threatened and intimidated? This goes to the animals are entirely different from those kept in static heart of what we should be debating. locations by private keepers. I hope that with the advancement of digital technology, there will eventually Mr Deputy Speaker: We are here today to debate the be an end to the use of wild animals in films and on TV motion before the House and that is exactly what we are because when they are not being used many of these now going to do. animals are warehoused like a carton of vegetables. 551 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 552

[Mark Pritchard] of Rights, the better for everyone. Let us test the Act in an English domestic court, where even Brussels wants I shall concentrate primarily on the legal issues. such cases heard. Let the Government have the courage Notwithstanding the Government’s written ministerial of their own convictions. Legal advice from the statement of 13 May and the subsequent revised Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Government response on 19 May to an urgent question, itself suggests that a ban might breach circus owners’ I hope that the Government will accept that there are property rights under the Human Rights Act, so let us no legitimate outstanding legal impediments to prevent test it in the courts. Let us see what the courts have to a ban in England. say—the courts in London and England, not in Vienna, Brussels, Strasbourg, Copenhagen or some other European Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab) capital. rose— I pay tribute to the Minister of State, who has been Mark Pritchard: Forgive me, but I am not giving way. put in a very difficult position. On 19 May, he courageously I know that the hon. Lady has a long track record on and bravely told this House that he personally would this issue, but I am pressed for time. like to see a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses. We also know that officials at the Department for If Mr Speaker had selected the amendment this morning, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs want a ban on which is relevant to this point, it would have kicked this the use of wild animals in circuses, and it is reported motion into the long grass and there would have been that the Secretary of State herself is minded to favour a no ban on the use of wild animals because we would ban, yet No. 10 has overruled: so much for devolving have had to wait, as a country, for other legal cases to be power and allowing Departments to get on with their dealt with in other parts of Europe. That, in itself, is a own business, and so much for ending the control-freakery red herring. of No. 10; it appears that that tendency under the last In his statement to the House last month, the Minister Government is continuing under this one. told Parliament, at column 497, that a court case “against the Austrian Government” would “commence shortly”, The Government have also invoked the European given that the Austrian Government wanted to introduce services directive, saying that a ban would breach it and a ban. I understand that the papers have now finally would fail to meet the proportionality legal test. I can been submitted to the court in Vienna, but there is no tell the House that that is not the case, and that the live case. Interestingly, despite outright bans in other European Commission has denied that it is the case. EU countries—I have already listed some and I could I appeal to the House to support my motion. Let us add Greece and Luxembourg—a legal case has never get Britain back to where it was in the last century—leading, been brought or won before. It is not uncommon to rather than lagging behind, the world on animal welfare hear of Governments sheltering behind courts in Brussels issues—and let us put an end to the use of wild animals or Strasbourg, but to hear from Ministers in my own in circuses. Front-Bench team say that this Government are now sheltering behind a domestic court in Vienna is a completely Several hon. Members rose— new innovation. There are two further flaws in the Government’s Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. There is so-called legal defence. Are the Government of this a six-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions. As is country suggesting that the threat of legal action or the apparent from the number of Members rising to be possible outcome of court cases is enough to paralyse called to speak, this is a very popular debate. Government decision making? Fear is not usually a prerequisite to success. What is more, the Government 4.1 pm are seeking to put Vienna before the courts in London. If the Government waited for the court case in Vienna— Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab): I am the papers have been submitted, as I said—the case very pleased to follow the hon. Member for The Wrekin went through and the European Circus Association (Mark Pritchard), and I congratulate him. I do not lost, there would be an automatic appeal to the European imagine that he is in the running for his Chief Whip’s Court. That would add more delay and procrastination, Back-Bencher of the month award, and he might have further getting the Government off the hook when it to wait a wee while before receiving further invitations comes to introducing a ban in this country. Even if that to receptions at No. 10, but he is showing great tenacity case were spent, there could be another European court and determination in keeping this issue alive in Parliament, considering another case in another European capital. and in bringing it to the attention of the House today, Notwithstanding my comments, the reality is that the with the able assistance of the hon. Member for Colchester Government’s Austrian defence is a red herring, given (Bob Russell). I also thank the Backbench Business that the European Commission has clearly stated that a Committee for granting time for this debate. ban is a matter for member states alone. It is an issue Some people may not consider this issue to be of that English courts decide. Surely that is something to major political consequence, but it means a great deal celebrate in this age of judicial creep from Europe, and to a lot of people, as evidenced by the thousands of also something to exercise and implement. A ban can be responses to last year’s Department for Environment, introduced in an English court— without waiting for Food and Rural Affairs consultation, by the number of other European capitals to decide and without interference people signing The Independent newspaper’s petition, from Europe, which makes a refreshing change. by the hundreds of MPs who have signed the relevant The Government have invoked the Human Rights early-day motions, and by the e-mails and letters MPs Act 1998—yes, that old chestnut. The sooner the have been receiving not just in the last few days, but over Government scrap the Act and introduce a British Bill the past 14 months. 553 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 554

I should declare an interest: I was the Department for election, there was not long enough to introduce that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister who left ban. However we gave a commitment to the animal this matter to the current Minister of State, the right welfare lobby, to parliamentary colleagues and to the hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Mr Paice), public that we were minded to introduce a ban if we to sort out, and I apologise to him for that. I am sure he were re-elected, which sadly we were not. I am convinced would rather be concentrating on other matters, but he that we would have gone ahead with that. is a highly respected politician of integrity, and I know The biggest obstacle to progress that I can remember, he will take note of today’s debate and vote. as has been mentioned by the hon. Member for The Wrekin, was at the Department for Culture, Media and Tony Baldry: As the hon. Gentleman had ministerial Sport, which contended that any such ban could harm responsibility for this issue under the last Government, our creative industries by outlawing the use of animals may I ask him a question? In the last Parliament, we in film and TV productions at worst or by reducing the spent a lot of time debating the Bill that became the number of performing animals available at best. Either Animal Welfare Act 2006, and we were told that it was way, the contention was that the threat to film and TV the most up-to-date legislation in the world. Therefore, production would move it abroad and cost us jobs and if there is a concern about animal welfare, why is it not revenue. We had numerous discussions about this and covered by the provisions of that Act? we were eventually able to reassure DCMS that that would not be the case and that we could limit the ban to Jim Fitzpatrick: That is a good question, and I will the use of wild animals in circuses, as the hon. Gentleman discuss the 2006 Act in due course. It is my understanding has outlined. DCMS dropped its objection and the that that Act could be used as the enabling legislation to Government had a united policy, which appeared in our introduce a ban, and I hope that my later remarks on it manifesto in May last year. will clarify the situation for the hon. Gentleman. All kinds of questions were raised about whether When I took over as Minister of State in 2009, the wild animals should perform at all and which should be question of wild animals in circuses had been left over allowed to. My main concern was and is about the from the 2006 Act. That Act was much needed and conditions in which animals are kept in venues and on warmly welcomed and took animal welfare to a much the road. We are mostly reassured that modern zoos better place, but wild animals in circuses were not create environments that try to reflect animals’ origins, specifically covered. I was lobbied by the Born Free natural habitat and behaviour patterns, and we have to Foundation, as well as the Royal Society for the Prevention ask how that can be done in the back of a cage attached of Cruelty to Animals and Animal Defenders International, to a lorry driving along the motorways of Britain? Even and also by many Members. DEFRA organised a this morning on BBC “Breakfast”, the camera crew consultation, and we all know the outcome: 94.5% of visiting a circus was not allowed to film the animals’ the 13,000 respondents said they wanted a ban. The living quarters. I think that that speaks volumes. Why then Secretary of State, my right hon. Friend the Member the reluctance? I think we all know. for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), agreed that we should express our conclusions before last May’s election and The Government say they want to introduce a licensing we said we were minded to introduce a ban. system rather than a ban. The system would mean that any circuses wishing to have wild animals such as tigers, Recently, there has been much comment about legal lions and elephants performing in them would need to impediments. The European Circus Association challenged demonstrate that they met high animal welfare standards the Austrian ban at the European Commission in 2006, for each animal before they could be granted a licence and it lost. It invoked the European ombudsman and it to keep them. Areas being considered as part of the lost. The ombudsman asked the Commission to evaluate licensing conditions include the rules on transporting whether the Austrian ban on wild animals in circuses animals, the type of quarters they could be kept in, was proportionate. The Commission’s final opinion of including winter quarters, and their treatment by trainers September 2009, as laid out in the documents available and keepers. in the Library pack for today’s debate, set out why it did not believe there were grounds for an accusation of I know from my time at DEFRA that it wants to maladministration and also set out its view on the improve the welfare of animals across the piece and to proportionality of the Austrian ban. It ruled that this improve the situation. It has even been suggested by was a matter for member states to decide. some that the licensing regime could introduce a ban by the back door, but we do not want a ban by the back Much advice was offered to me when I was a Minister, door—we want a ban through the front door. We want but my recollection is that the legal questions were honesty and transparency in the laws and regulations about whether a ban would require primary or secondary we debate and introduce. We want clarity, not confusion. legislation. I do not remember there being a European The public have used their voice to articulate that they dimension to the advice, but of course memory does want a ban and Members of every party have said that play tricks on us. they want a ban. I hope and appeal to hon. Members in all parts of the House when it comes to the vote at 6 Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): The o’clock tonight to support the motion in the names of hon. Gentleman was a good Minister, but does he regret the hon. Members for The Wrekin, for Colchester and that he did not introduce a ban in his time as a Minister? myself. Jim Fitzpatrick: I regret that we as a Labour Government did not introduce a ban, but the Animal Welfare Act 4.9 pm was a major piece of legislation and we tried our best. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): Animal welfare Given the constraints and the time frame between when matters to the British people, but we in the House have I was appointed Minister of State and the May 2010 a duty and responsibility to make decisions on issues 555 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 556

[Andrew Rosindell] reality and not use it to promote a political agenda. I am afraid to say that certain animal welfare relating to animal welfare based on facts, knowledge organisations—[Interruption.] and science. If we make decisions based purely on opinion polls and emotions, we shall get ourselves into Several hon. Members rose— great difficulty. I heard nothing in the speech of the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) about Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. the actual welfare of animals. Mr Rosindell is not giving way, so persistent requests are not helping the situation. I am sure he will let the Mark Pritchard: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? House know when he is ready to take an intervention. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Andrew Rosindell: I should like to take interventions, Mr Deputy Speaker, but I am being shouted down, Andrew Rosindell: I will give way in a moment. which is not very fair, especially from a Green MP—I We have to base our decisions on cool hard facts and should have thought that she would want to hear the knowledge of the situation. The speeches I have heard other point of view. today do not show that; they have avoided the real I am a champion for animal welfare, but I shall not animal welfare issues and are pandering to the emotions just follow the crowd. I shall look at the facts. What is of animal rights activists who care more about their being proposed is worse than those poor animals are political agenda than about the real welfare of animals. used to; their entire life has been in the environment I condemn utterly and totally cruelty to animals of they were brought up in. Wrenching them away from any kind. I was the shadow Minister for animal welfare the people who have looked after them, loved them and for three years before the last election, and I had the cared for them would obliterate their rhythm of life and same instincts as many people in the Chamber today would be crueller than allowing it to continue. I shall and many of the people who respond to opinion polls, now give way. when they say, “Isn’t it dreadful. It should be banned. How awful this is.” Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman says that he wants science. What about the science from the British Caroline Lucas: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Veterinary Association, which says: “the welfare needs of non-domesticated, wild animals cannot be Andrew Rosindell: May I make some progress before I met within the environment of a travelling circus… A licensing give way? scheme will not address these issues”? Instead of basing my views purely on what the The BVA is one of the most respected scientific newspapers or the opinion polls say, I looked into the organisations for animal welfare in this country. What matter. The truth is that in this country only a small does he say to that? number of animals are in circuses: 39 in total. They are not captured from the jungle and dragged to the circus; Andrew Rosindell: Non-domesticated—they are wild many have been born and bred in circuses for generations. animals, but when lions and tigers are 10th generation [Interruption.] Their entire rhythm of life is based— born in that environment, we are no longer talking Mark Pritchard: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? about a lion taken out of its natural environment and dragged into the circus. I am afraid to say that the issue Andrew Rosindell: Not at the moment. is often used by organisations for fundraising. Charities and animal rights groups raise money, and the issue is For those animals, their entire rhythm of life is based raised to attract political support and donations, by on what they have known since they were born. On the whipping up emotions instead of treating the facts as face of it— they are. Several hon. Members rose— Mark Pritchard: Will my hon. Friend give way? Andrew Rosindell: May I continue? On the face of it, I agree that it looks to many people Andrew Rosindell: No, I will not. as though it is all very cruel, but in reality many of those We have the Animal Welfare Act 2006—a brilliant animals have been so domesticated over so many years piece of legislation from the last Government, which we that to wrench them from the life they are used to would supported—and it can be used when cruelty occurs, but be crueller than allowing them to continue it. The I appeal to the House: do not go with the crowd, look at Government have to implement welfare and we already the facts, do not wrench those creatures away from the have the Animal Welfare Act 2006. If there is real life that they are used to and have grown up in. If you cruelty to animals, we can use existing legislation or, as do that, you will be more cruel than leaving them where the Government propose, licensing to deal with it. they are, with the people and in the environment that [Interruption.] It is amazing that we are focusing on an they are used to. area where there is almost no cruelty—[HON.MEMBERS: “There is.”] There isn’t. [Interruption.] No one wants to Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): hear the facts—[Interruption.] They don’t. Will my hon. Friend share with the House his views on I am fed up with animals being used as a political whether third-generation slaves in the United States, football. If Members want to campaign for animal born into slavery, were content with slavery, more so welfare, they should look at the facts, examine the than those who were enslaved in the first place? 557 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 558

Andrew Rosindell: I am afraid to say that I am sorry with the matter and it would be much more likely to that the debate is being dragged to such a level. Instead increase, not reduce, the number of wild animals being of dealing with the facts, you are ultimately saying that used in circuses. animals— Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): I have received Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. Once a huge number of e-mails and correspondence from again, I can see that emotions are running high, but I constituents about this matter. The hon. Member for remind the House that when you say, “you”, you mean The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), whom I congratulate on me. having initiated the debate, mentioned how the conditions in which the animals are kept adversely affect them. The Andrew Rosindell: I knew that my views would be hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) referred unpopular, but I ask hon. Members perhaps to take to facts. The usual life expectancy of animals kept in something away from what I am saying, because I such conditions is much shorter than that of animals believe passionately in animal welfare. I looked at this not kept in those conditions. for three years. I visited circuses. I spoke to people who deal with training the animals, and I know that they are Jim Dowd: Indeed. The hon. Member for Romford loved and cared for. This is like a pack hunting a tiny bit was being most disingenuous or misinformed, depending of tradition that still exists in this country, where animal on one’s point of view, in saying that there was not a welfare standards are greatly considered and animals body of evidence based on animal welfare considerations are loved and cared for. I am afraid to say that, if we that supports the ban. The argument in favour of a ban rush to make a decision based on pure emotion and is entirely predicated on that. He may not have understood opinion polls, I really think that it will be an irresponsible the evidence, but that does not mean it does not exist. decision. We should look at the facts. We should understand the long-term interests of animal welfare and use existing legislation to deal with this issue. Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): As a scientist I am very interested in evidence. Could the hon. Gentleman spot what the facts were that we were being asked to 4.18 pm listen to by the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab): That Rosindell)? I missed all those, whereas the hon. Member contribution can best be described idiosyncratic, or for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) seemed to cite idiotic, depending on the point of view taken. To say facts that were much more interesting. that it is not about the welfare of animals is either a display of stupidity that is quite mind-numbing or a Jim Dowd: The hon. Gentleman has it exactly right. deliberate attempt not to face up to the heart of the The speech of the hon. Member for Romford would issue. As the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark bear rereading, as they say. Perhaps we can have a prize Pritchard) said in opening the debate, this is entirely for anyone who can mine a single fact out of it—but about animal welfare. Only about 40 or so animals are please do not send that to me. involved—there are various numbers; perhaps it is 36 or 37—but the numbers do not matter. What matters is The hon. Member for The Wrekin, my hon. Friend cruelty. the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), I and Brian Blessed, among others, were over at Downing Mark Pritchard: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman street towards the end of March to hand in a letter for giving way, in the absence my having been able to calling for the ban to be introduced. I know that there intervene on my hon. Friend the Member for Romford are those on the Government Benches who are ideologically (Andrew Rosindell). The hon. Gentleman needs to be opposed to bans of any kind, which is a strange position, careful not to be too harsh on my hon. Friend, who but it is understandable. Parliament and the whole body wrote the foreword in 2009 for the Great British Circus of law is about bans of one kind or another designed to and previous forewords as well. Perhaps that is why he change people’s behaviour in different ways. A law says, would not allow me to intervene. “If you behave in a certain way, there will be certain consequences,” but no law can ever make people better. Jim Dowd: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for What it can say is that there are patterns of behaviour that intervention; I suspect that he might be on to and conduct which are acceptable and there are those something. which are not. Cruelty to animals is one of those considerations. I am puzzled because this is a relatively minor issue: as I say, somewhere between 36 and 40 animals are involved. The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): Is it not a Lucas) quoted the British Veterinary Association. The fact that zoos have spent a great deal of money doing hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) did not the research to find out what sort of facilities should be grasp the difference between domesticated and captive made available for the sort of animals that we are animals. Captive animals may still be wild and nowhere discussing? Clearly, travelling circuses cannot provide near domesticated. Even until the nth generation, they such facilities. remain wild and their instincts are those of wild creatures. The British Veterinary Association said that in captivity Jim Dowd: I agree strongly with my hon. Friend. in circuses, there are no circumstances under which When we speak to those involved with zoos and aquariums, such animals can demonstrate their natural behaviour. it is clear that they are looking carefully at the kind of That will remain the case, regardless of a regulatory animals that they will and will not exhibit. Large mammals scheme. The big disadvantage of a regulatory scheme is and large carnivores are very much at the top of their that it would be a more complicated way of dealing considerations. 559 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 560

[Jim Dowd] to a fair trail. Therefore, I can only presume that the Minister made his comments while considering a ban As just about every Member knows, animal welfare is under article 8. one of the most persistent issues raised with us by our Article 8(1) has been interpreted extremely broadly constituents over time. From the 19 years that I have by the European Court, whereas exemptions or limitations been in the House, I have a database running into many to the right have been interpreted narrowly. The right thousands of people who have raised various issues has three potentially relevant elements: private life, family with me. People feel very strongly about these issues, life and home. Private life has been held to include the and rightly so. It is the hallmark of a civilised nation right to develop one’s own personality and relationships that it has the highest possible animal welfare standards, with others. The European Court considered that the and I still believe this to be a civilised nation. There is a notion of personal autonomy is an important principle maxim that suggests that the hottest corner of hell is underlying the interpretation of the right. reserved for those who are cruel to children and animals, and in that regard, despite being a life-long atheist, I However, the right has been held not to apply to hope that there is a hell. activities that relate to the private aspects of a person’s life, such as those that take place in public and where Constituents raise concerns with us because they care there is no expectation of privacy. In the current situation, about them. For the hon. Member for Romford—I do a ban relates not to the private aspects of the lives of not want to concentrate on his contribution, but it those potentially affected, but to their employment, really was quite extraordinary—to describe the entire which essentially takes place in public and without the pantheon of animal welfare organisations, many of expectation of privacy. Equally, the ban would not which have royal charters and have been around for affect the right to a family life, as it would not prevent decades, if not centuries, as part of some kind of trendy or interfere with a person living in proximity to their conspiracy invented simply to please Guardian readers family. is ludicrous. Finally, the concept of home under the convention is I accept that the Minister is in a difficult situation, wide and would include travelling accommodation as and he has made his personal opinion clear. What I well as permanent dwellings. cannot understand—the hon. Member for The Wrekin alluded to this—is why the Government have handled such a relatively straightforward issue in this fashion. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, The idea of No. 10 getting personally involved in such Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I am sure that as issue shows a curious lack of proportion. It also my hon. Friend is right about article 8 of the convention, appears curious when tested against the idea that the but at no time have I referred to it. If he had read what I Government are now listening and that listening is a said, he would know that I referred to article 1. sign of strength. Mr Offord: I am happy to stand corrected by the Mark Pritchard: I am pleased to announce that the Minister. That allows me to move my argument on. coalition Government, certainly on the Conservative Another argument is that a ban on animals in circuses side, have heard the voice of the British people, seen would interfere with a person’s right to the peaceful sense and will now allow a free vote on the matter. enjoyment of their possessions because it would amount to a control on how those possessions may be used, but Jim Dowd: Well, there are free votes and there are free such an interference with that right would not violate votes. To paraphrase George Orwell, some of them are the right if it were done in the public interest. I therefore more free than others. There is a great deal more to be urge the Minister to consider a ban in that public said on the matter, but unfortunately not by me. I urge interest. Members to support the motion. The European Courts have decided that, whether or not the control on possessions imposed by a ban is in 4.27 pm the public interest, they will have regard to whether a Mr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con): I am pleased to ban represents a fair balance between the needs of the be called to speak in the debate, but I find it rather sad public interest and the rights of the individual. In other that we are still talking about this issue after so much words, I tell the Minister that the European Courts will time. DEFRA officials said in 2009 that the ban could consider whether a total ban is a proportionate measure be introduced under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. We to achieve the public interest aim in question. went wrong when the Minister of State commented Accordingly, it is important to consider why exactly a recently that a total ban on wild animals in circuses ban is required in the public interest. If a total ban is might be seen as disproportionate under the EU services proposed to ensure that animals are kept in appropriate directive and under our own Human Rights Act 1998. I conditions and cared for by appropriately qualified must say that, on that point, I agree with my hon. persons, there is an argument that, unlike the proposed Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard). licensing and inspection regime, a ban is not proportionate Having had some contact with the Whips in the past to the public interest aim being pursued. If a total ban week, I have become quite an expert on the Human is proposed because it is considered cruel or ethically Rights Act and particularly knowledgeable on article 8 wrong to make wild animals perform in circuses in the of the convention. UK, however, a total ban is the only measure that will With regard to the European Court’s case law, it is achieve that public aim. difficult to envisage a cogent argument that could support Accordingly, if Parliament determines that wild animals the assertion that a ban would engage the other rights performing in circuses are no longer acceptable to the set out in the convention, such as the rights to life and public, it will therefore be in the public interest to have a 561 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 562 ban on the use of such animals. The European Courts 4.33 pm would be very unlikely to question the judgment of this House as to what is in the public interest of the United Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): We have already heard Kingdom. many comments from many colleagues, so I will not repeat what has been said. I rise in support of the motion, which Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con): Is my hon. Friend aware that in the UK more than 200 local “directs the Government to use its powers under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to introduce a regulation banning the authorities have bans on animals in circuses, and that use of all wild animals in circuses”. more than two thirds of those bans are on all performing animals, the remainder being on wild animals? Is he I had the privilege of serving on the Animal Welfare aware also of any ongoing court cases under human Bill Committee back in 2006. The Bill became an excellent rights legislation? Act with many good measures asking people to think carefully. It was good in terms of introducing codes and Mr Offord: I am certainly not aware of any cases saying that animal welfare really matters. During that under human rights legislation, and the situation involves Committee’s proceedings, however, I raised the issue of not just 200 local authorities, but countries and principalities banning the use of wild animals in circuses, and I would in countries, including Austria, Croatia, the Czech Republic, have liked to have seen a much slicker process in the Bill Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, to progress the matter at that time. Poland, Portugal, Spain and Sweden. All those countries Matters have progressed, however. The consultation have to decided to take that suggested approach, yet we that the Labour Government instigated in 2009 showed are once again kowtowing to the European Courts. that public opinion is even more clearly behind a ban on the use of wild animals in circuses than it was back in Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South 2006, with 94.5% of people saying that they would Pembrokeshire) (Con): On human rights, does my hon. support it. It is therefore a great shame that we did not Friend accept that it takes only one person to challenge have the time to introduce that ban before the election, this decision in order to delay for a number of years the after which the coalition Government chose to disregard process that every Member seems to want, whereas public opinion by not proceeding with introducing it. sensible regulation would achieve the same aims over a It is extraordinary that the smokescreen of the European much shorter time? Union has been put up as an excuse for not introducing the ban, because as was explained earlier, the Commissioner Mr Offord: I suggest, as others have already urged, has clarified the position and there is absolutely no that we take a lead on the matter. As I have said, I have obstacle whatsoever in the way of doing so. The European had some experience with the Human Rights Act this Union does not prevent us from doing this. week, but when people use it they find that many in officialdom bow down and decide that, suddenly, it is a Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): My very important issue and that those people will get away hon. Friend is to be commended for the work that she with what they are trying to achieve. has done on animal welfare in the last Parliament and In summary, case law from the European Court of in this one. Is it not the case that all that is required to Human Rights indicates that a ban would be within the bring in the ban is secondary legislation using the “margin of appreciation”afforded to the United Kingdom. existing provisions in the 2006 Act—a very simple process? If a ban is proposed because it is considered cruel or ethically wrong in itself to make wild animals perform Nia Griffith: Indeed; my hon. Friend has clarified the in circuses in the United Kingdom, as opposed to a ban position. It is very straightforward. It can be achieved being proposed because welfare standards cannot be because of the groundwork that was done during the guaranteed, then a ban is the only measure that will first stages of the Animal Welfare Bill. achieve that public interest aim and is therefore Evidence from local councils over very many years automatically proportionate. shows that when given the opportunity many local Accordingly, a ban will not breach the European councillors, rather than trying to ban the use of animals, convention on human rights, and as a ban is only a have said that circuses are not allowed to come on to control on the use of wild animals in circuses and their land to perform because they want to make the therefore does not deprive the owner of the animal itself point and respond to public opinion. We do not want a or of their ability to use it for commercial purposes. messy licensing situation whereby this, that and the There is a strong presumption against compensation other has to be done and the situation is unclear to being awarded to persons who suffer any loss as a result everybody—we want a simple, straightforward ban. of the ban. If the Government decide to implement a ban, it will not be as revolutionary as we have heard, Andrew George (St Ives) (LD): I am sure that there given the 200 local authorities and the other countries will be party political points to be scored throughout that have been mentioned. the debate; I congratulate those who have called it. I do not believe that animals should be subjected to Does the hon. Lady accept, however, that there is a the conditions of circus life. Regular transport, cramped gathering consensus, with the Government’s body language and bare temporary housing, forced training and since the announcement on 13 May indicating that performance, loud noises and crowds of people are all there is a growing preference in Government for a ban? typical and often unavoidable realities for such animals. Therefore, unless the Government give us a time frame Nia Griffith: We want a definitive decision to be for a ban on animals in circuses, I will vote for the taken today. We want that decision to go in favour of a motion. ban, and we want that ban to be implemented without 563 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 564

[Nia Griffith] there are many other ways in which young people can be educated about animals. They do not need to see any further delays of any sort whatsoever. The consultation cruelty to animals in the circus. I fully support the clearly indicates where public opinion stands and the motion. I congratulate the Members who called for this reasons why. I am not going to keep listing the terrible debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee instances of cruelty that we have heard about. Even if for allowing it. there were no deliberate cruelty, it is clear to anybody that the lifestyle of always popping in and out of a cage 4.41 pm and performing and travelling is not something that Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD): I am anybody could possibly understand as the way that a delighted to speak on this incredibly important motion, wild animal would be expected to behave. and I congratulate the hon. Member for The Wrekin On the business about 10 generations, even in the case (Mark Pritchard) on securing this debate. It is fair to of our own cats and dogs who may be 10 generations say that I do not always agree with him, but I recognise domesticated, we have cat flaps and take dogs for walks. his strong commitment to animal welfare, which I share. We certainly do not expect them to live the life of Hon. Members had the opportunity to debate banning popping in and out of a cage and being isolated from wild animals in circuses in a Westminster Hall debate other members of their species and taken right of their secured by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South environment. That is clearly incompatible with their (Robert Flello) on 8 June. I am delighted that we now natural way of life. There are many opportunities for have the opportunity to debate it on the Floor of the young people to see how animals can live in the wild House and to vote on it. I make it clear that I will be using hidden cameras. We have experts and naturalists voting for the motion. There have been suggestions that who produce fabulous films. We can click on our computers Conservative Back Benchers are being or have been and see it all. We can go to a safari park, without having whipped to vote against the motion. I state categorically to travel abroad, to see animals who can be kept in that I have not been whipped by any Liberal Democrat certain ways in this country. Member to vote either way. All I say to Conservative colleagues who may be thinking of voting against the Angela Smith: Have we not come to expect, as a motion is that they should bear in mind the level of society, that animals should live in their natural environment public support throughout the country and, more and should not have to exist for the benefit of human specifically, in their constituencies for a total ban on the beings and their entertainment? use of wild animals in circuses. My concern is that the Government’s proposal of Nia Griffith: Absolutely. It is a purely selfish idea that introducing a licensing scheme may inadvertently legitimise anybody would want to see an animal perform in a the use of wild animals in circuses, resulting in an circus. As my hon. Friend says, we have moved on from increase in their use and an increase in suffering. that. It is completely mediaeval to think of going back to the idea that an animal is to be taken round on a Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Another chain because nobody in the area or in the country has problem with licensing is that it does not deal with the ever had a chance to see that type of animal. We do not issue of animal welfare, because the animals still travel want that any more. and are still kept in unacceptable conditions. There are many important lessons that we want to teach our young people. They will not learn the fundamental Mr Leech: I thank the right hon. Gentleman; I was lesson about respect for animals and treating them about to make that very point. properly and well if they are taken to a circus to see Over the past few years, there has been a dramatic such antics. Young people have to understand that for reduction in the number of wild animals in circuses. them to see such things, animals have to travel and There are now only about 38 or 39 animals being used undergo very undesirable practices. Animal welfare is in three circuses. That is a welcome decline and I hope incompatible with the life of a travelling circus. that the trend continues as more and more people support a complete ban. Recent surveys have suggested Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): I have personal that at least 70% of people support a complete ban, and experience of a wild animal. I found a bear in a cage in more than 94% of people who responded to the consultation no man’s land. He had been left there for four weeks did so as well. without water. He was entirely miserable and would not Unfortunately, I understand from the Captive Animals even be coaxed out of his cage by honey. We managed Protection Society that the day after the Westminster to ethnically cleanse that bear out of Bosnia and into Hall debate Malcolm Clay, secretary of the Association Croatia. He is now a very happy bear who is full of life of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain, said that far and living in Amsterdam zoo, which is great. I fully from a licensing scheme discouraging circuses from support the idea of banning animals in cages, because it using wild animals—which the Minister suggested might would stop that sort of thing. be the case— “Once we have… regulation which reassures the public we may Nia Griffith: As I have said, society has moved on. see some circuses return to using animals.” We do not expect to see the cruelty of animals being Surely that is not the Minister’s intention. kept in circuses in this day and age. There has been a public focus on the issue of wild We want this ban to be sorted out in the most animals in circuses in recent times, not least because of efficient way for the whole country, not in little bits and the spotlight on the poor treatment of Anne the elephant, pieces or through half measures. We want a proper ban but also owing to the number of people who have seen on the use of wild animals in circuses. As I have said, the film “Water for Elephants” in the cinema. I urge 565 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 566

Members who have not seen the film to go and see it. advice that it would be impossible to ban imports of cat Unfortunately, however, the plight of Anne the elephant and dog fur, and the same was said of seal fur, but when has muddied the waters to some extent. I do not think individual Governments challenged that dubious advice, anyone would deny that no one with a brain would they were able to make the bans happen. condone the mistreatment of animals, and I have no It is when a number of forward-thinking member doubt that this was only one of a very small number of states call strongly for action on something that we see instances of animal cruelty in circuses. I am sure that progress on the EU position. There are clear precedents, the vast majority of wild animals in circuses are looked not least in animal welfare policy, in which action by after as well as they possibly can be. What concerns me individual states has been the means by which animal is that the nature of a circus, which involves moving welfare protection has been secured across the EU. from place to place in cramped conditions, makes it In an attempt to find out whether the Government impossible to provide a suitable living environment for were genuinely looking for a legal way to make a ban on wild animals. wild animals in circuses happen, I tabled a written The nature of a circus also makes it impossible to question asking whether the Secretary of State had provide an inspection system that could adequately received any legal advice on check that regulations were being adhered to at every “instances where a single EU member state has taken unilateral location unless that system is ridiculously expensive. action on animal welfare matters which has led subsequently to a Although the Minister has said that the cost will fall on change of EU policy in line with that action”.—[Official Report, the circuses, I suspect that the result will probably be an 9 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 408W.] inadequate inspection system and an insufficient number The extraordinarily complacent response was that the of inspections. An inspection system will not work, and Secretary of State had “no recollection” of any such may result in more wild animals in circuses and more advice. Why is she not going out and asking for that suffering. It will not address the fact that the constant advice? Why is she not looking for the legal means to go movement of animals in cramped conditions is not ahead with a ban, in line with the wishes of the vast good for the welfare of the animals. The only way to majority of people in this country? Instead, she and her ensure an end to animal suffering in circuses is a complete Ministers have been looking for legal cases to cower ban, and I urge Members in all parts of the House to behind as a cover for not acting. vote for that ban It is worth reminding ourselves that it is not just because of public opinion that we need a ban, important Several hon. Members rose— thought that is. Members have spoken about the importance of science, and I have cited the evidence of the British Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. So that Veterinary Association, which has stated that more Back Benchers will have an opportunity to speak, I am reducing the time limit to five minutes. “the welfare needs of non-domesticated, wild animals cannot be met within the environment of a travelling circus; especially in terms of accommodation and the ability to express normal behaviour. 4.47 pm A licensing scheme will not address these issues”. Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I pay We are not criticising individual circus owners; we are tribute to the Members who tabled this important motion. saying that the very nature of being in a circus means We need a ban on keeping wild animals in circuses that animals’ welfare needs cannot be addressed. because it is cruel, but we also need a ban because the At first, my feeling was that the Government’s position welfare of those animals is emblematic of the way in was extraordinarily cowardly. As the debates continue, I which we treat all animals, and is symbolic of the kind am sadly coming to the conclusion that they do not of society in which we live. The Government are wrong want to act because they do not like to be seen to be to suggest that the European Union is somehow preventing banning things, and are therefore looking for excuses. It us from dealing with the issue. In response to the is interesting to reflect on the fact that successive UK insistence of Ministers during the last debate on this Governments have been in breach of their obligations subject that a legal threat in Europe had been a major under the bathing water directive since 1975. Although factor in the prevention of an outright ban, leading it is nice to see DEFRA suddenly discovering the idea animal protection organisations called a meeting with of complying in full with what it perceives to be its EU the European Commission’s Head of Representation, obligations, perhaps it is not too cynical to suggest on at which it was confirmed once again that the issue of this occasion that they simply do not want to act. wild animals in circuses was a matter best left to the If the Government wanted to stop this cruel practice, judgment of member states. they would be acting. In their defence we would have When I was a Member of the European Parliament, another euro-sausage type story, with headlines about we did a great deal of work trying to make progress the UK having every right to act and comments like with animal welfare issues in the Parliament. Often, the “How dare the EU interfere?”, as we saw with the advice was to go back to member states in the first “Defend the British banger” story. Yet in this instance, instance and to rouse them to act. I have therefore urged the EU is not telling us what to do. Instead, we are Ministers to consider, for example, the action that was inventing barriers where none exists. taken first on dog and cat fur and then on seal fur. On both occasions, leadership by member states prompted Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): the EU to ban imports of those types of fur. It is The hon. Lady is making a marvellous speech. My significant that the legal advice that was used in an understanding is that every legal case brought by European attempt to stop those bans was that there were so-called circus owners, like the one in Austria that has been “outstanding legal impediments”. Exactly the same excuse mentioned, has been lost. There seems to be almost no is being used today. Governments were given the legal real basis at all for the Government’s claim. 567 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 568

Caroline Lucas: The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is I should like to put it on the record that I am grateful very helpful in pointing out that that argument is a that we will now have a free vote. Applying a three-line smokescreen that the Government are hiding behind. Whip to an issue such as this would have made a Indeed, the Head of Representation of the European mockery of the relationship between Parliament and Commission here in London recently wrote a letter to the Government. That is a welcome move in the past the Captive Animals Protection Society stating plainly, couple of hours. yet again, that the EU considered that I shall not pretend that this is the biggest animal “the welfare of animals…is a matter best left to the judgement of welfare issue, because it clearly is not. There are 30 or Member States”. 40 wild animals in circuses in this country. That does It is not acceptable to have a policy which leaves us not compare to the millions of animals that have to just hoping that regulations will have the same effect as experience daily the brutality and horrors of factory a ban, particularly given that the secretary of the Association farming. This is none the less an important issue. There of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain stated on the day is no justifiable reason for keeping animals such as after our last debate that he did not believe the new elephants, tigers, lions and so on in small, travelling costs of regulation would discourage circuses from having cages, away from any semblance of what for them performing animals. Instead, he stated that would be a normal life. That is just not civilised. “once we have robust regulation which reassures the public we My understanding is that until recently the Government may see some circuses return to using animals”. took the same view, but that that changed somewhere How perverse would that be as an outcome of having along the line. It is hard for me—and, I believe, many licences? others—to understand why that happened. For one thing, the vast majority of people support a ban. All the Mr Foster: For the avoidance of doubt, will the hon. polls suggest that. The public appetite for such Lady confirm that the EU has not said just that these entertainment is, at best, fading. It is certainly not a issues are best left to member states? The Commissioner growth sector. has specifically said that they are the responsibility of Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con): With member states. That is what gives us the legitimacy to overwhelming public opinion against the use of animals, have a ban, and to have it now. might such a ban help circuses, because it could attract customers who, like me, are appalled by the use of wild Caroline Lucas: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely animals, back to them? right. It is the responsibility of member states to act, and it is within our remit and right for us to do so. That Zac Goldsmith: That is an extremely valuable point. I is what the EU is saying, so it is incredibly perverse to have been to circuses in this country, but I have made a try to do otherwise. point of choosing to go only to those that I know use no In conclusion, the Government’s judgement on this wild animals. It would be nice not to have to do that matter is woefully lacking. They have got it wrong on research. I am sure that many people are repelled for this one. that reason.

Angela Smith: I am sorry to intervene on the hon. Mr Watts: The general public, MPs and even Ministers Lady towards the end of her speech, and I thank her for are opposed to live animals in circuses. Is it not clear allowing me to do so. If the vote tonight is in favour of that the only person blocking a ban is the Prime Minister? a ban, does she, like me, expect the Government to act on that and bring in a ban as quickly as possible? Zac Goldsmith: I have no idea. I do not know the politics and I do not know the Prime Minister’s position. I accept that the vast majority of the public are opposed Caroline Lucas: I think that were the Government to the use of wild animals in circuses, as—I believe—are not to act in that way, the Great British public would be the vast majority of Members of the House. shocked and any sense of democratic accountability would be undermined. I agree completely with the hon. It is particular confusing that whereas the Government Lady that they should respect the wishes of the vast have a stated ambition over the course of this Parliament majority of people in this country and immediately to reduce red tape and bureaucracy, their alternative to ban the cruel practice of keeping wild animals in a straightforward ban affecting 30 or perhaps 40 animals circuses. Personally, I would go further and ban all is to construct a new regulatory regime, with licensing animals in circuses, not just wild animals. I refer hon. and inspections and the various associated costs. That Members to Cirque du Soleil, one of the most famous goes against the Government’s general thrust and and successful circuses in all of Europe, which uses no direction—and all for 30 or 40 animals. That makes no animals at all. sense at all. The outcome that the Government imply they want is Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I agree with for there to be no wild animals in circuses. If that is the the hon. Gentleman about the strength of public opinion. case, I call on them to show some real leadership and Why were his Government and his Prime Minister effect a ban now. prepared to have a three-line Whip for Conservatives until the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) 4.54 pm stood up? Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con): I pay my Zac Goldsmith: I began my speech by welcoming the respects to my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin change of heart over the past couple of hours. I have (Mark Pritchard), whom I cannot see in the Chamber, not been part of that process, so I cannot answer the and congratulate him on securing this important debate. hon. Gentleman’s question, but I very pleased that we 569 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 570 will have a free vote—it is the kind of issue that should I want to make a short contribution because it is have a free vote. I am very much on the record before important that the House is seen to reflect public opinion the debate as saying that I would have defied a three-line and the views of our constituents. Like other hon. Whip and voted for the motion, as a very large number Members, I have many constituents who care passionately of Government Members would have done. That is about animal welfare. They do not see it as part of a perhaps one of the reasons why we will now have a free political agenda that they are working to for their own vote. sake or to gain a position; they believe genuinely in The most disturbing aspect of the Government’s what they argue. I pay particular tribute to one of my change of position is that it is not based on a change of constituents, Maureen Rankin from Kilmarnock, who heart. As a number of hon. Members have pointed out, over the years has done a huge amount of work on the the only reason we have been given is that the Government issue of wild animals in circuses. I am glad that the tone fear a possible EU legal challenge some time in future. of debate has moved on from what was a fairly sparky The Minister was quoted in The Independent today, I beginning to starting to find consensus across the House believe, as saying that and political parties. That is what the public are looking for on an issue such as this. There will be times when we “a total ban on wild animals in circuses might well be seen as disproportionate action under the European Union services directive disagree, and there will be nuances and differences. and under our own Human Rights Act”. If that is true, it is hard to imagine anything more Nia Griffith: My hon. Friend will be well aware that embarrassing for the House. The Government are effectively the Labour Government allowed a free vote on tail saying that even though they want to do this minor docking. Does she agree that her constituents would thing, and even though the public would support such a expect there to be an automatic free vote on an issue of move, they cannot do it because they no longer have the this importance, which is cross-party rather than party authority.What does that say about Parliament, democracy political? or this country? Let me put it another way. What is the point of Cathy Jamieson: My hon. Friend makes a very good making promises up and down the country in the point. I certainly was glad to hear, during the debate, run-up to an election on the campaign trail if we no that the Government have decided to offer a free vote, longer have the authority to fulfil even the most basic because it gives Members the opportunity genuinely to promise? That makes a mockery of parliamentary reflect the views of their constituents. democracy in this country. The arguments for the ban have been well rehearsed during the debate, so I do not want to go over them all Mr Offord: I am sure my hon. Friend will recall the again. It is important to recognise that the arguments issue of prisoners’ voting rights, when the European being made by organisations such as OneKind, Animal Union and the European Court of Human Rights told Defenders International and the Born Free Foundation us we were not allowed to deny them those rights. I was arise out of the view that has grown up over the pleased that hon. Members, particularly Government years that it is no longer acceptable for animals to be Members, had the opportunity to show the will of used for entertainment in circuses. After many years in Parliament. This is an opportunity for us to show our politics, albeit in another Parliament, I am glad to be will again. with 95% of the public rather than trying to change opinion and argue my case, which was the position I was in when I first entered politics. It has been mentioned Zac Goldsmith: I absolutely accept that point, and that several local authorities, including in Scotland, there are other examples too. We had a debate a have already decided not to allow circuses with wild month ago on fish discards, and the House unanimously animals. agreed a resolution requiring that the Government veto any reforms to the common fisheries policy unless they included our reasserting control over the 12 miles around Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): Does my our coast. It remains to be seen whether we have the hon. Friend agree that despite some of the doom and strength to show our will again, although I very much gloom, including in my city, when local authorities took hope that we do, just as we did over prisoner votes. In that step about 20 years ago—people said, “Well, that this case, the legal advice is, at best, ambiguous, and I will be the end of circuses in the city”—we have seen am convinced by the arguments used by a number of some superb circuses every year since? speakers that there is, in fact, no genuine threat at all, and that this is something that the Government should Cathy Jamieson: My hon. Friend makes a powerful and must do. I am going to back the motion, and I hope point. In Edinburgh, Fife and my local authority area that colleagues will do the same, if not for the wild in Ayrshire, there was cross-party support for not allowing animals themselves then simply to send a message to the circuses with wild animals on to council land, but the public that Parliament exists, and exists for a purpose. local authorities I know of, particularly in Scotland, want to take further measures to ensure not only that such circuses are not allowed on their land but that they 5pm cannot enter other locations in the council area. Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co- Mention was also made in the opening speech of the op): For once—perhaps the only time—it is a pleasure Scottish Government’s position. My understanding is to follow the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac that the new Scottish Government are sympathetic to a Goldsmith). I suspect that there might be many ban. However, when I questioned the previous Scottish occasions on which we do not agree, but on this one we Government last year on their position, they said that certainly do. they were awaiting the results of the DEFRA consultation. 571 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 572

[Cathy Jamieson] have physiological consequences, such as abnormal brain development. Donkey displays all those damaging signs: Securing a vote today and, for once, taking the lead on he has very poor social skills and is underdeveloped for this issue would not just send a powerful message to a monkey of his age. England and Wales, but would be helpful to colleagues Donkey will never be able to return to the wild, owing in the Scottish Parliament who want a ban enacted there. to the damage he has sustained, but he now lives with friends of his own species. I hope that in time Donkey Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): The hon. Lady will be able to live a fairly fulfilled life in my constituency, may also be aware that colleagues have tabled a motion at the Wild Futures monkey sanctuary near Looe. I in the Northern Ireland Assembly on banning wild would like to give a quick plug to the monkey sanctuary, animals in circuses, but when I corresponded with the which does fantastic work. If hon. Members are down Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development I was our way during the recess, they should pop in and see told that the Department was looking to DEFRA to the sanctuary, because Donkey and all his friends would take a lead and establish the principle. love to see them. More importantly, the entrance fee and donations will feed him and other rescued primates Cathy Jamieson: The hon. Lady makes a valid point. at the centre. The devolved Administrations have powers that they can use, but on issues such as this, which are important Please remember Donkey, and the message that he across the UK, it is important that DEFRA Ministers cannot bring to the debate himself. It is time to ban wild show leadership. animals in all circuses, so that the terrible life that Donkey has suffered need not be repeated. This is why I I understand that the Minister may be in a difficult will support the motion. position. It is always difficult if a Minister has strongly held personal views but the advice that they receive—legal 5.10 pm advice, or advice from others in the Department or civil servants, or even from higher up their political party—does Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): It is a pleasure to not correspond with those views. I hope that the strength follow the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll of feeling shown across the House today will give the Murray), who has spoken up for animals such as Donkey Minister the opportunity to give us hope that the that cannot speak up for themselves. It is also a pleasure Government might be able to move if this vote is to speak in this important debate, and I congratulate passed. That is certainly what my constituents who have the hon. Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) been writing to me all week expect. We have a consensus and for Colchester (Bob Russell) and my hon. Friend building in the public’s mind. It is time to show a the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) consensual approach and, come voting time, to ensure on bringing it before the House. There is overwhelming that this afternoon’s vote is registered in support of public support for the introduction of a ban on the use public opinion, the organisations that have campaigned of wild animals in circuses, and it is crucial that we have over many years and, most of all, the animals who a vote on this motion today. I am pleased to hear from would otherwise continue to be at risk. the hon. Member for The Wrekin that there is to be a free vote across the whole House. That is what the Several hon. Members rose— country is asking for on this issue, and it is what the country should have. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. As the There are only three circuses left in the UK that use House can see, several Members are still trying to wild animals in performances. It has been recognised speak. The wind-ups will start at half-past 5, so if that to use them for human entertainment is unethical Members can show restraint and reduce their five minutes and unjustifiable, and that it should therefore be opposed. themselves—perhaps to three and a half minutes— The previous Government consulted the country on a everybody might get in. ban on the use of wild animals in circuses in 2009, and the consultation closed in March 2010. It received more 5.7 pm than 10,000 responses, 94.5% of which supported a ban. That illustrates the extent of public opinion, which Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con): I will has been reflected in our postbags over the past couple try to be brief. I congratulate my hon. Friend the of weeks. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) on calling this debate, which gives me the opportunity to introduce Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): I have received just the House to Donkey, who is a Barbary macaque who one item of correspondence from someone who is against now lives in my constituency—if Members want to see a ban—he is not a constituent of mine; he was writing what he looks like, I would be happy to show them from an address in Dorset—but I have had hundreds of afterwards. e-mails and letters from my constituents calling for a Donkey’s story is not a happy one. Caught as a ban. youngster and smuggled into Europe from Morocco, probably via Spain, Donkey wound up as a circus Nic Dakin: I have received no correspondence opposing performer. Donkey suffered years of abuse in the circus, a ban. Indeed, we have heard from only one Member where he was beaten and forced to perform in front of this afternoon adopting a different point of view. It is large crowds. He was castrated, to avoid him becoming good that that point of view has been aired, because it is aggressive towards his captors, and denied the company important in democratic debates that all points of view of others of his kind, which causes immense mental and are heard. emotional suffering in all primates. All primates are I am particularly pleased to see a good turnout of highly social animals. Maternal deprivation is known Lib Dems for this debate. I suspect that they feel a not only to hinder psychological development, but to certain empathy with circus animals, as an endangered 573 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 574 species being kept against their will for the entertainment I want to put it on record that I am not in favour of of others. [Laughter.] But this is a serious issue, and if banning all animals from circuses. I think that some of the motion is carried today, the Government should the more domesticated animals—dogs and ponies spring listen to hon. Members on both sides of the House and to mind—thoroughly enjoy themselves. I recall going to to members of the public. They should listen to what a charming little circus in France where a farmer, his the British people are saying, and they should stop wife, their two children, a goat and a dog held us all clowning about and introduce a ban on wild animals in spellbound for about an hour. I can say that that dog circuses. and goat had a good time, getting a treat every time they did something brilliant. We know that there is 5.13 pm room for some animals; it is the big wild animals that are the problem. Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con): As a In conclusion, I want a ban on wild animals in child, I used to get rather excited by the prospect of a circuses. I recognise, however, that there might be certain visit to the circus; one reason was that I wanted to see legal obstacles to getting that straight away. A time all the exotic animals that I could not normally get close frame of one year is perhaps a little impractical. I am to, apart from those that I saw in zoos, which in those not an expert on EU law, but I know that before a ban days were rather caged affairs. Obviously, however, of this sort could be introduced, there would have to be things have changed. We are all now entertained by consultation and a way would have to found to re-home brilliant films on TV and in cinemas that contain these 39 animals. That is why I intend to abstain this amazing footage of wild animals in their natural evening. However, I also put the Government on notice habitat. Most zoos are made to look rather boring in that I want to see a ban and want them to do whatever comparison with what David Attenborough shows us. they must to introduce a ban as practicably as they can. Thanks to many animal welfare associations, we are also much better educated about world wildlife and 5.17 pm how it should be treated. For those who really want to see wildlife close up, let us not forget the modern tourist Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): As the third signatory industry. People can save up their pennies and take to this motion, I would like to congratulate my colleagues, themselves off on a safari or a trip to the rainforest. the hon. Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) These are the ways in which we can see wild animals at and for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) on their best, and there really is no excuse or need for wild their positive speeches. I also pay tribute to the hon. animals in circuses. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) for his bravery in the lion’s den, as the only Member thus far to speak The more we know and understand these magnificent against the motion. That takes courage, and I congratulate animals, the more we recognise that a circus tent is no him on that. place for them. Some of them might have been whipped, goaded or herded into their rather pathetic performances. I detect the fingerprints of No. 10 Downing street on I can still remember from my visits to the circus that this. I have tabled a parliamentary question and I await when the lions and other big animals came in, extra the written answer with great interest. Opposing live security was immediately put on and a man with a whip, animal acts in circuses is something that I first got if not a chair, would appear. That tells us everything involved with on 15 May 1971, when, as a borough that we need to know. Of course these animals are not councillor of 48 hours, I was contacted by Mr Murphy safe in the circus environment; they have to be controlled. of Barrack street who urged me to get circuses banned Of course they cannot be relied on to relax and enjoy from Colchester. I put that to the council, but I was a themselves; they are in an unnatural environment, lone voice and nothing happened. A few years later, surrounded on all sides by human beings, of whom they however, Colchester became one of the first local authorities are instinctively frightened. Frankly, these animals’ in the country to ban circuses from its land and buildings. continued presence in the circus ring, even if there are Unfortunately, we need a nationwide Government ban, only about 39 of them, diminishes us all. because we still have a landowner in the town who I regret to say allows his land to be used for circuses. I know that some will argue that some animals are Circuses are barbaric; they have no place in a civilised not, in fact, wild because they were born in captivity. society of the 21st century. We heard that this afternoon, but I do not see what difference that makes. A lion or an elephant still has Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD): natural instincts; it still needs proper space to move I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and briefly around in, and being driven around the country for congratulate him on his long-standing work on this and much of the year in the back of a van is no place for other animal protection issues. I would also like to say these animals. that many of our councils led the way, but do not have quite enough power, as my hon. Friend said. I think we Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con): Does my hon. should therefore move on this issue as soon as possible. Friend agree that introducing a firm ban with a firm date means that no new animals will be brought into Bob Russell: I am grateful for those comments. circuses and that the circus owners will be put on notice To follow up the issue of what happens to the remaining that those currently operating in circuses will need to be 39 circus animals, I am pretty confident that this country’s retired to appropriate circumstances that suit their needs? zoos will be ready and available to accommodate them. Colchester zoo took in three elephants from a circus, Angie Bray: I certainly agree that we need a ban, and Rolf Harris was there to open the spirit of Africa although I am just a little worried about whether the enclosure . The bull elephant was particularly pleased time frame is practical; I will come back to that issue because he was then put with four cows, which he had later, if I may. to look after. He was very happy. 575 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 576

[Bob Russell] a ban in the future. That is what we want. In this day and age, we cannot have wild animals in circuses. Many There are circuses that we can support, however, such of us also know about the pain that can be caused by as the Chinese and Moscow state circuses, as well as the amount of training those animals are put through small local circuses involving just a few people. The and the way in which they are trained to perform in Netherlands national circus is currently performing in unnatural ways. Ipswich, then next week in Lowestoft and the week after that in Colchester, and I intend to be there, subject to Mr Dodds: The hon. Gentleman has not yet answered confirmation that it is, indeed, animal free as I am the question put to him by the hon. Member for Rochester advised. and Strood (Mark Reckless) about how he reconciles his current stated position with his position as the 5.20 pm leading signatory to the amendment. Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I support Neil Parish: Perhaps I am being criticised for taking a the motion as it is high time we banned animals in pragmatic view on this. I want a ban and the only circuses. I have been worried about the stance that has reason for the amendment was that the requirement in been taken and I am glad the Government Whips have the motion that a ban would have to be in place in now given us a free vote on this, because animal welfare 12 months might not have settled the legal situation. We is a moral issue and Members on both sides of the do not want to give the Government an excuse not to House want a ban on wild animals in circuses. move towards a ban. The plank of the Government’s argument relating to Austria is fragile, and I fear that it might be sawn off at Mark Pritchard: To which legal cases is my hon. some stage. I would prefer us to take a much firmer Friend referring? There are currently none in England, stance by going for a ban and letting somebody challenge the United Kingdom or in European law. There is only it if they want to, because I do not think that anybody one possible case in Austria. Is he, as a former Member will do so. of the European Parliament and allegedly a Eurosceptic, suggesting that we should wait for the decisions of Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): Given domestic courts in other capitals, let alone in European the position my hon. Friend has set out, why has he courts, before making our own decisions in this country? decided to be the lead signatory to the amendment to the motion? If my understanding is correct, the amendment Neil Parish: I covered that point at the beginning of would have prevented any ban from being introduced my speech when I said that the case in Austria is not a until some supposed EU legal issue was resolved. good one on which to put the whole plank of the Neil Parish: I will deal with that later, but I have Government’s reasons for why we cannot ban the use of previously stated that we should challenge the court wild animals in circuses. As far as I am concerned, the ruling in the Austria case. only reason for the amendment was to give the Government time to come forward with a ban. Clearly, there is a There has been too much talk today about the process move from all parts of the House to ban the use of wild of government and who is to blame and who is not to animals in circuses. Now we want to hear from the blame, instead of getting to grips with the welfare issues Minister very clearly what the timetable for that will be, of animals in circuses. If we do have to take note of the how we are going to deal with the court case and how case in Austria— we will move to a ban as quickly as possible. Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con): My hon. Friend talks about process, but does he not agree that the best Several hon. Members rose— thing to do is vote in favour of the motion and get the ban put in place, job done? Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. There are four minutes and three speakers left—we must finish Neil Parish: Yes, but putting the ban in place will take by 5.30 pm. a little while, so meanwhile we should consider certain animal welfare issues. The conditions endured by circus 5.26 pm animals when being transported are totally wrong. The Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South conditions need to be greatly improved. There must be Pembrokeshire) (Con): I am not a fan of wild animals much more comprehensive inspection of that, which in circuses, I would not take my children to see them or would lead to much greater costs on such circuses. go myself and I think that the quicker we can move to a Therefore, a great deal of pressure can be applied in the situation in which they do not exist the better. I do not meantime, before we introduce a ban. even like dancing dogs on Britain’s Got Talent very I may disagree with the points made by the hon. much—I think it is demeaning for the owner and the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), but in a dog—so I strongly sympathise with many of the arguments democracy he has the right to raise them. He talked that have been put forward this afternoon. However, about the fact that many of these animals have performed what I like even less is taking a populist route because it for many years. They will need to be rehabilitated and seems to be the easy one against, sometimes, principle found homes, so let us use the time available to good and evidence. We are charged, whether we like it or not, effect in that regard. with taking a responsible approach to these things, We want the Government to listen to the arguments which is sometimes difficult in the face of overwhelming on a total ban. I do not know what the Minister is going and well-targeted pressure on us as MPs. It seems to me to say, but I would like him to say that the Government that we are making this more difficult for ourselves by have thought again and that they are minded to introduce confusing an argument about ethics and morality with 577 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 578 one about legal enforceability. This has been complicated Several hon. Members rose— by the haunting image of possible challenges in the European Court. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. I call However, let me curtail my contribution. Regulation Mr Gavin Shuker for the Opposition. He has 10 minutes. can work. I simply do not buy the argument that it would somehow open up a Pandora’s box. If we are 5.30 pm sensible about regulation, not only can we improve Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): I congratulate animal welfare standards and move to a situation in the hon. Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) which animals in circuses are a thing of the past, but we and for Colchester (Bob Russell) and my hon. Friend can do it without putting the taxpayer at risk of having the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) to fork out for a lengthy, time-consuming and very on their work in securing the debate. It is right that it expensive EU challenge. We can do it in reasonably was secured by the Backbench Business Committee, quick time and without the need for primary legislation. given the depth of feeling on both sides of the House. The Government were right about this 10 days ago It is appropriate to mention some of the Members on when the Minister spoke in Westminster Hall and nothing the Government Benches who made brave speeches, has changed in the intervening 10 days. It seems to me specifically the hon. Members for Hendon (Mr Offord), that if he is genuine to his word, as I am sure he is, we for Manchester, Withington (Mr Leech), for Richmond can achieve everything that everybody in the House Park (Zac Goldsmith), for South East Cornwall (Sheryll wants without all the nonsense, cost and threat to the Murray), for Ealing Central and Acton (Angie Bray), taxpayer that we have been talking about. I shall be for Colchester and for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil voting against the motion tonight and commending the Parish). In many ways, they are lions led by donkeys. I Government’s approach. am pleased that we as a party and as an Opposition Several hon. Members rose— stand firmly behind them. Indeed, almost every speaker supported a ban, with the exception of the hon. Member Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. There for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) who looks like the are two minutes left. I call Tessa Munt. man who bet everything on red but it came up black. Today, the Minister has the opportunity to offer 5.28 pm some kind of leadership. Unfortunately for him, however, Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Nothing short of a ban it seems that the position has changed since he took his seems to be the answer to making this absolutely clear. seat in the Chamber today. That is a shame, because we The views of many organisations have been represented want to hear a justification for his current position. in the debate this afternoon, but I would like to pay Let me be clear: there is a majority in the House in particular tribute to Virginia McKenna and the Born favour of a ban. The public consultation launched by Free Foundation, who are observing the debate from Labour found massive support for a ban. I have no the Gallery this afternoon. desire to overturn the cross-party consensus on the I want to make two quick points. First, the Government’s issue, but it raises serious questions about DEFRA’s proposals for licensing and regulation are still going to decision making. A new Government come in, and be subject to a legal challenge and I do not see how that what do we see? Yet more dither and delay, instead of a would be any different. I refer the Minister to an answer clear, consistent position from them. I direct Members to a parliamentary question in the European Parliament to the Minister’s answer on 19 May, when, outrageously, that was answered by Commissioner Potocnik. The he said: question was: “If people are really so opposed to the use of wild animals in “What is the Commission doing to enforce animal welfare circuses, I suggest that they do not go to the circus.”—[Official standards in European zoos and circuses?” Report, 19 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 499.] In his answer, Commissioner Potocnik dealt with the What a pathetic response. question of zoos and then said quite clearly: Indeed, the Department’s entire response has not “Circuses are specifically excluded from the scope of the Zoos been great—to say the least. First, there was a year of Directive, and are not covered by any other EU legislation. delay in which we saw shocking images of Anne the Therefore, the welfare of circus animals remains the responsibility elephant being beaten. Who knows what else has gone of the Member States.” unseen? Secondly, we saw DEFRA dithering from the That was at the end of May. top, because in April, the ban was on. The Secretary of My constituent, Gerry Cottle, ran away at the age of State had made her decision, and she briefed the Sunday 15 to join the circus, and very successful he has been. I Express that a ban would be introduced, but within a spoke to him yesterday. He said that the circus has few weeks, she had made her first U-turn. The Secretary moved on and times have changed, and that public of State’s favourite interviewer without coffee—the Prime opinion was against “the dinosaurs”who use wild animals Minister—had intervened in DEFRA affairs once again in circuses. We do not need them. He runs a successful and now the ban was off. circus without animals, creating good old-fashioned Thirdly, we saw the incompetence of a Department theatre and entertainment. that many have described as in special measures. New There is no way that any circus owner could say that decision made, along came the policy-based evidence- banning animals from circuses was a human rights issue making process. The Secretary of State provided a because it caused loss of livelihood. Many circuses written ministerial statement outlining her reasoning. operate without animals, which is a testament to progress. In it, she cited an Austrian court case that did not yet I support the motion and I trust that the Minister will exist. A second statement tried to fix that. She owned hear the clamour for a ban both in this place and up: the Government only thought the case was on after outside. reading a press release. Dragged to the House for an 579 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 580

[Gavin Shuker] clear that the barrier to implementation is the Tory-led Government, who found the roadblocks in the first urgent question, there was no apology for misleading place. I hope that we will hear much more about that. Members, just the tired excuses we have come to expect— this time, amazingly, about the Human Rights Act. Mark Pritchard: Has not the strength of the debate Talk about digging a hole. been the cross-party consensus? Notwithstanding the The Government refuse to publish their legal advice, right of any Member to make points about this Government although, of course, they remain happy to hide behind or previous Governments, that strength has been shown it. The Government-backed amendment to the motion, in all Members working together, reflecting the will of quite rightly not selected, calls for a ban to be introduced Parliament and the British people. as soon as legal impediments are resolved. That gives rise to some confusion. First, the Government say that Gavin Shuker: I am glad to associate myself with there are no legal impediments, then that there are those sentiments. There are serious questions to be overwhelming legal impediments, and now that there asked about the process—we will certainly ask them at a are resolvable legal impediments. That is less a U-turn later date—but the most important thing about tonight’s and more a giant arc, gobbling up and spitting out vote is that we follow the Members who raised the issue unprepared Ministers in its path. Now there is to be a in the first place through the Division Lobby and ensure free vote: U-turn complete. that a ban is enacted. Most depressing of all, the Government were right One of my major concerns if we do not pass the the first time; there is nothing wrong with banning the motion is that circuses are saying that the Government’s use of wild animals in circuses and that ban should be licensing scheme could produce an increase in the number introduced right now. The Government argue that a of performing animals in British circuses. Surely, that ban may contravene the European services directive, alone must give us pause for thought. The issue is but that is incorrect. Last month, the EU Commissioner straightforward, and the solution is pretty clear. The for the Environment reiterated that the EU’s position Government should introduce a ban under the previous had not changed, saying that Government’s Animal Welfare Act 2006. “the welfare of circus animals remains the responsibility of the Events have moved on in the House since we started Member States.” the debate. It now seems clear that there will be a free The Government state that there is a lack of scientific vote. I am glad to hear that because I believe that, on evidence in support of a ban. Again, that is not correct. such issues of conscience, we are strongest as a House A global research study supported by the Royal Society when we stand together against practices that have no for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals concludes that place in a modern society. Perhaps more importantly, I “species of non-domesticated animals commonly kept in circuses believe that the DEFRA ministerial team had the right appear the least suited to a circus life”. position in the first place. They instinctively felt that a The Government argue that a ban requires primary ban was the right way go on the issue. For that reason, I legislation. Again, that is incorrect. DEFRA’s impact should like to encourage them to go through the Lobby assessment makes it clear that powers under section 12 with us tonight to make a clear and definite case about of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 are sufficient to introduce the kind of society that we seek to create, and in doing a ban. so, we will be much stronger as a House together.

Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): Those Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Before I call are fine words, but will the hon. Gentleman explain to the Minister, may I suggest that we have until five to the House why the Labour party did not do something 6 before I call the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark about the issue when it was in power? Pritchard)?

Gavin Shuker: I appreciate the opportunity to say 5.38 pm what we did when in government. We banned animal testing for cosmetics. We banned the process of battery The Minister of State, Department for Environment, farm eggs. We created new powers to stop animal cruelty. Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): I will forgo We banned tail docking. We stopped the trade in seals. the obvious opportunity to use many of the numerous We ended fur farming, and we passed the hunt ban. I witticisms that I have heard during the past 48 hours am proud to stand on that record as a Labour Member about my appearance here, but I will start by simply of Parliament. We introduced the 2006 Act that allows trying to say that I will walk the tightrope over the next the Minister to ban the practice of wild animals performing 10 or 15 minutes. in circuses, and that is exactly what we are calling for As several hon. Members have shown, this debate has today. demonstrated that, with one or two exceptions, there is passionate agreement across the Floor of the House Mr Leech: The previous Government had a reasonable that we should see an end to the use of wild animals in record on animal welfare, but they had four years from circuses. I assure the House that nothing divides us on the 2006 Act until they lost the general election. Why that front. When we came to office a year ago, we had was the ban not introduced in those four years? the advantage of receiving the results of the consultation to which the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse Gavin Shuker: I am delighted to say that we had a (Jim Fitzpatrick) referred, and we had to examine all clear commitment to do that in this Parliament. As a the options. A ban was one of those. We did not have Member of Parliament, I share the desire, expressed the advantage of the advice that he received because across the House, to implement the ban. We must be that was confidential to the previous Government. 581 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 582

We had a new set of advice from our lawyers and we down motorways chained in a cage and going from had to use that in coming to our view. It clearly indicated place to place, many people would conclude that they that there were serious risks of a legal challenge should are not worth the paper they are written on. we opt for an outright ban, despite our being minded to do so. I will return to the detail of those legalities Mr Paice: That may well be the judgment that the because that has occupied much of the afternoon’s hon. Gentleman and many others—and probably even debate, but it is for that reason and in the interest of I—would come to, but as we have clearly stated, we avoiding a long judicial process that we concluded that would go out to consultation in order to form a view of the quickest way to reduce and, we hoped, eliminate what those standards should be. cruelty to wild animals in our circuses would be a Let me conclude my comments on the introductory robust licensing system, which might well result in speech of my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin. circuses deciding to stop keeping such animals. He never made any attempt to justify using section 12 of My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark the Animal Welfare Act 2006. I shall refer to that in a Pritchard), who moved the motion, has shown diligence little more detail. The hon. Member for Poplar and in pursuit of his cause. However, I am afraid his dedication Limehouse also referred to that. I respect him immensely. has allowed him to misrepresent a number of issues, We shared a mutual respect when I shadowed him, and and some of that has been repeated by other hon. I think that remains the case, but I must correct his Members. The first is the Commission’s view about memory on the previous European case, without going whether this is entirely a matter for member states. I through all the detail. He remarked earlier that the remind the House that the view of a Commissioner is circus lost against the ombudsman, but that is not the simply that. I have seen the letter sent by the Commission case; the ombudsman made a damning criticism of to the Captive Animals Protection Society, and I understand maladministration against the Commission, based on that that is the view of the Commission, but as I said in the view that it had abdicated its responsibility to maintain the House last time we debated the subject, it is ultimately the treaties by not interfering in the rights of member the courts that interpret legislation, and our lawyers states, so there is a distinction. have to advise us not about what the Commission’s view The hon. Gentleman reminded us of the 2006 Act. I is, but how they believe a court might interpret the served on the Bill Committee, as did the hon. Member legislation. for Llanelli (Nia Griffith)—I remember her efforts at that time to introduce a ban, which she described today. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Had there been It was resisted by the Minister at the time, the right hon. time for me to be called, I would have made the point Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), and by Lord Rooker that cruelty, in the sense of physical cruelty to animals, in the other place. While the Bill was on Report on is not the only issue. People’s experience of wild animals 8 March 2006, the right hon. Member for Exeter stated: is much richer through the internet, television and, “I intend to use a regulation under clause 10 of the Animal indeed, the Cheltenham science festival, making it Welfare Bill to ban the use in travelling circuses of certain unnecessary for animals to be kept in captivity. There is non-domesticated species”.—[Official Report, 8 March 2006; Vol.443, increasing scientific evidence that there are complex c. 61WS.] emotions and intelligence in animals, especially intelligent That was in March 2006, over four years before the animals such as elephants, which make any kind of general election. Whatever the good intent of the hon. systematic confinement inherently cruel, even if physical Member for Poplar and Limehouse, the fact is that his cruelty is not present. Government did nothing, despite that declared intent.

Mr Paice: I fully understand my hon. Friend’s comments Mr Watts: Let us go to the root cause of the problem and I shall pick up one or two of them in a moment. between the Minister and everyone else. He seems to be pinning his case on the idea that someone might take Angela Smith rose— legal action and might win a court case. On that basis, the House could not pass any legislation. Mr Watts rose— Mr Paice: I am coming to that exact point. Mr Paice: I shall make a few more points before I give way. My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin If the House were to approve the motion, the listed, as did other hon. Members, a range of other Government would have to respect that, but as a Minister countries that have allegedly banned the use of wild I am duty bound to lay before it the possible animals in circuses. Many of those references were consequences—I stress the word “possible”—of that incorrect. A number of countries have selectively banned decision not only for the Government, but for the certain species. A number have rightly banned wild House, taxpayers and possibly the animals that we are caught wild animals, which is a different issue. My hon. concerned about. Friend and others speculated that licensing might mean more animals in circuses. I find that difficult to believe. I Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Will the Minister note the comments from the circuses that were mentioned, give way? but we are not talking just about issuing a licence. We are talking about very tough licensing conditions for Mr Paice: No I will not; the hon. Gentleman was not keeping such animals. here for much of the debate. The legal advice we have received on section 12 of the Gavin Shuker: I am sure the whole House would like 2006 Act is that although it could be used as the basis to hear what those tough licensing conditions would be. for a total ban, it is highly likely that we would be If they incorporate travelling for weeks on end up and challenged on the basis that an outright ban was a 583 Wild Animals (Circuses)23 JUNE 2011 Wild Animals (Circuses) 584

[Mr Paice] Mr Paice: No doubt we could lay every lawyer in the House end to end and not reach a definite conclusion. I disproportionate measure for improving welfare in circuses. note my hon. and learned Friend’s comments, and That is exactly the same advice as the previous Government obviously I respect them. received in the Radford report, which they commissioned May I turn to the nub of the issue? When hon. after the discussions in 2006. The report makes it absolutely Members decide in a few minutes’ time how to react to clear that there was insufficient evidence to ensure that the motion before us, I hope that they will pay heed to the animals’ welfare could be improved only by a ban what I have said about the risks attached to it. It is of and not by other means. That was the Radford report’s course a matter for the House to decide, but I hope that advice, and it remains the legal advice. hon. Members will not focus on whether we ban or, indeed, wish to end cruelty, because I hope that there is Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister give way? no doubt about our desire on the latter point, but focus on how we go about achieving that end to cruelty in Mr Paice: No. I will finish with the legal matters circuses, on which we are I believe united. before giving way again. Although a complete ban as advocated in the motion Obviously I cannot tell the House that there would be might well achieve that end in time, there are, as I have a challenge, or what the result would be, but we do have tried to describe, significant risks in taking it forward to note the advice. The Radford review concluded in with the deadline and using the legal mechanism to 2007 that no scientific evidence existed to show that which my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin has circuses by their nature compromised the welfare of referred. That is why the Government have come forward wild animals. It was on that basis that it concluded that with a proposal that might achieve the same end with a ban on the grounds of welfare would be disproportionate more certainty. Nevertheless, as I say, the House has a in the absence of evidence that welfare was compromised. right to decide otherwise. There are two further risks from that action: the cost I understand and fully respect the very high emotions to the taxpayer and the risk that a court might agree to involved, including on the issue of the ethics of animals suspend the ban until legal proceedings had concluded. performing for human entertainment. In other words, although the law itself might have been passed, nothing would have changed for the animals Tessa Munt: Will my right hon. Friend give way? themselves.

Stephen Phillips: On that point, will the Minister give Mr Paice: I am sorry, but I am rapidly coming to the way? end of my time. I share the views of hon. Members who are concerned Mr Paice: This is in comparison with a licensing about the use of performing animals, but I also have to system that would be in place by the end of the year. react to and respect the legislation that we have enacted in this House in the past, and the reality is that section Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): He is a lawyer. 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 does not allow ethical considerations to justify a ban, so I hope that in Mr Paice: I am well aware of who wishes to intervene. considering how to vote hon. Members will consider I turn now to the European aspects of the legislation. those points. The European legislation would apply whether we use The Government are determined to stamp out cruelty primary or secondary legislation to implement a ban. to and the bad welfare of animals in circuses. We have My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, in her put forward our proposals, and it is of course for the statement on 19 May, informed the House of the error House to decide that we should perhaps reconsider in referring to an action currently before the Courts in them, but I ask the House to consider the legislative the European Union, and I repeat our regret over that background against which it might ask us to do so. error. Nevertheless, I can inform the House, as has already been stated, that as I predicted on the same day, a case has been laid by Circus Krone against the Austrian 5.53 pm Government in the Austrian constitutional court. We Mark Pritchard: I pay tribute to and thank the Minister, know not the outcome, but the fact that that case has who has been very brave and courageous today and been laid supports the legal advice that we have previously deserves a parliamentary medal for a valiant attempt to reported to the House, namely that a wholesale ban defend the indefensible, given his personal position, may well be counter to section 16 of the EU services which he stated clearly on the Floor of the House on directive, and that any subsequent legal challenge would 19 May. I thank also all Members from all parts of the have the same consequences that I have described. House for a very vibrant debate that has informed the House on a range of issues relating to what I and, more Stephen Phillips: I am extremely grateful to the Minister importantly, 92% of the public believe is an important for giving way, and it is well known in the House that I issue. do not often give free legal advice. He refers to the This nation once led the world in animal welfare. advice that he has received, and I have no doubt that There is no reason we cannot drag ourselves into the that is the advice he has received, but I have to tell him 21st century and regain and reclaim those global animal that in my opinion that advice is wrong, and that, welfare credentials. That is why I hope that Members having seen the quality of some of the advice that the will support my motion. Government receive from the European Scrutiny Committee, it is about time that outside legal advice Question put and agreed to. was taken. Resolved, 585 23 JUNE 2011 Business without Debate 586

That this House directs the Government to use its powers Carmichael, Neil Mills, Nigel under section 12 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to introduce a Carswell, Mr Douglas Mosley, Stephen regulation banning the use of all wild animals in circuses to take Clark, rh Greg Munt, Tessa effect by 1 July 2012. Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Murray, Sheryll Crabb, Stephen Murrison, Dr Andrew Business without Debate Crouch, Tracey Nokes, Caroline Davey, Mr Edward O’Brien, Mr Stephen BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (FINANCE (NO. 3) Davies, Philip Offord, Mr Matthew BILL) Davis, rh Mr David Ollerenshaw, Eric Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Paice, rh Mr James Ordered, Duddridge, James Parish, Neil That, notwithstanding the practice of the House as to the Dunne, Mr Philip Patel, Priti intervals between stages of Bills brought in upon Ways and Ellison, Jane Percy, Andrew Means Resolutions, more than one stage of the Finance (No. 3) Eustice, George Perry, Claire Bill may be taken at any sitting of the House.—(Bill Wiggin.) Evans, Jonathan Phillips, Stephen Fabricant, Michael Pincher, Christopher Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): We now Fallon, Michael Pritchard, Mark come to motion 3, which can be debated until 6 pm. Featherstone, Lynne Pugh, John Foster, rh Mr Don Randall, rh Mr John Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): On a point Francois, rh Mr Mark Reckless, Mark of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. On the Order Paper it Freer, Mike Reevell, Simon says that there will be no debate before 6 pm on the Fullbrook, Lorraine Reid, Mr Alan motion on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill. Can Fuller, Richard Rosindell, Andrew you guide us on the correct procedure in terms of Garnier, Mr Edward Ruffley, Mr David whether this motion can go ahead now or whether it Garnier, Mark Russell, Bob will be taken after 6 o’clock? Goldsmith, Zac Rutley, David Griffiths, Andrew Sharma, Alok Mr Deputy Speaker: It can be debated or the Question Hancock, Matthew Skidmore, Chris can be put. Hands, Greg Smith, rh Mr Andrew Harper, Mr Mark Smith, Henry DRAFT HOUSE OF LORDS REFORM BILL Hart, Simon Spencer, Mr Mark (JOINT COMMITTEE) Heaton-Harris, Chris Stephenson, Andrew Hemming, John Motion made, and Question put, Stewart, Bob Herbert, rh Nick Stewart, Iain That this House concurs with the Lords Message of 7 June, Hinds, Damian Sturdy, Julian that it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons Horwood, Martin Syms, Mr Robert be appointed to consider the draft House of Lords Reform Bill Howell, John Thurso, John presented to both Houses on 17 May (Cm 8077). Huppert, Dr Julian Tomlinson, Justin That a Select Committee of thirteen Members be appointed to James, Margot join with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider the Johnson, Joseph Uppal, Paul draft House of Lords Reform Bill (Cm 8077). Jones, Andrew Vara, Mr Shailesh That the Committee should report on the draft Bill by 29 February Jones, Mr Marcus Vickers, Martin 2012. Kelly, Chris Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa That the Committee shall have power— Kirby, Simon Watkinson, Angela (i) to send for persons, papers and records; Knight, rh Mr Greg Weatherley, Mike (ii) to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; Laing, Mrs Eleanor Wheeler, Heather Lamb, Norman Whittaker, Craig (iii) to report from time to time; Laws, rh Mr David Whittingdale, Mr John (iv) to appoint specialist advisers; Lee, Dr Phillip Wiggin, Bill (v) to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom. Leech, Mr John Williams, Mr Mark That Gavin Barwell, Mr Tom Clarke, Ann Coffey, Bill Esterson, Leslie, Charlotte Williams, Roger Oliver Heald, Tristram Hunt, Mrs Eleanor Laing, Dr William Loughton, Tim Williams, Stephen McCrea, Dr Daniel Poulter, Laura Sandys, John Stevenson, John Macleod, Mary Williamson, Gavin Thurso and Malcolm Wicks be members of the Committee.— Main, Mrs Anne Willott, Jenny (Bill Wiggin.) May, rh Mrs Theresa Wollaston, Dr Sarah Maynard, Paul The House divided: Ayes 140, Noes 7. Wright, Jeremy McLoughlin, rh Mr Division No. 306] [5.57 pm Young, rh Sir George Patrick AYES Menzies, Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Metcalfe, Stephen Miss Chloe Smith and Aldous, Peter Blackman, Bob Michael, rh Alun Mr Robert Goodwill Allen, Mr Graham Bottomley, Sir Peter Amess, Mr David Bradley, Karen Andrew, Stuart Brake, Tom NOES Bacon, Mr Richard Bray, Angie Durkan, Mark Skinner, Mr Dennis Baker, Steve Brokenshire, James Edwards, Jonathan Wishart, Pete Baldry, Tony Brooke, Annette Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Tellers for the Noes: Baldwin, Harriett Bryant, Chris Lucas, Caroline Mr Peter Bone and Barclay, Stephen Burley, Mr Aidan Nuttall, Mr David Mr Philip Hollobone Benn, rh Hilary Burns, rh Mr Simon Beresford, Sir Paul Burt, Lorely Question accordingly agreed to. Bingham, Andrew Cable, rh Vince 587 23 JUNE 2011 Dental Bleaching 588

Dental Bleaching is then colour-matched. As the patient’s teeth become discoloured over subsequent years from all the hazards, Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House including red wine, it is possible to use that same do now adjourn.—(Stephen Crabb.) process to bring the teeth back to that original benchmark level. 6.7 pm Dental bleaching is not available on the national Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I thank the heath, but I believe that in some cases it should be, Minister for being present to respond to the debate. I because it is less destructive than other options. To understand that he is in some matrimonial difficulty provide a simple example, if an NHS patient has badly because I have delayed him here this evening and it is his tetracycline-stained teeth, the only option on the NHS wife’s birthday. If it is any compensation, I am sure that to restore normal appearance is extensive crowns or I can arrange for his wife to be given a free bleaching veneers. They are destructive to the teeth and much treatment quite soon—on the understanding that he more costly, and in time they will need regular replacement. explains to her that it is free, so that he does not get The better approach is dental bleaching, which leaves away with allowing her to think that she has been the teeth intact and can produce an acceptable colour. presented with an expensive gift. Techniques of dental bleaching have improved. First, Let me first declare a simple interest and then add to the dentist has to check that the patient’s teeth are in it, because of the specifics of the debate. I am a qualified good order; then there are essentially two different and practising—although admittedly very part-time— bleaching techniques available. The first is the so-called dentist. I am also a member of the British Dental home technique, whereby after inspecting the patient, Association, the British Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry, the dentist constructs close-fitting trays that the patient the British Endodontic Society, and the British Dental wears for a period of time at home. The bleach trays are Bleaching Society. That explains why I am a target for designed to hold the gel against the teeth but away from some 36,000 dental practices which are leaning on this the soft tissues. issue. I hope that the Minister will bear with me. The second method is so-called power bleaching, The Minister will be aware that tooth bleaching by which is done in the surgery and generally uses much dentists has been around for a long time. I first used it stronger hydrogen peroxide concentrations. The soft about 30 years ago. My tutor was my now retired dental tissues are protected by either the aforementioned rubber partner, who qualified during the second world war, dam or, more generally nowadays, by a foam that is set and his tutor was his father, who qualified shortly after by an ultraviolet light. Some techniques use a light or the first world war. Dental bleaching has therefore been heat source, although I personally believe that that is used for more than 100 years. In the early days we used more for the image of the procedure as the patient sees a 30% solution of hydrogen peroxide, known in those it than to benefit the process. days as Superoxol. It was extremely destructive of soft tissues, which needed to be protected. In those days we Nowadays, hydrogen peroxide is generally delivered used something called a rubber dam, which was a small in varying strengths of carbamide peroxide. Those strengths sheet of latex rubber with holes placed in it so that the vary from 10% to 38% when used in the surgery. The teeth could poke through. The teeth could then be actual hydrogen peroxide concentration delivered is lower. bleached, and the soft tissues were looked after. For example, 10% carbamide peroxide delivers The aim of bleaching is to remove discolourations approximately a 6% concentration of hydrogen peroxide. from the teeth without harming the teeth themselves. As logic will tell the Minister, the higher the concentration, The discolourations can come from a number of sources, the faster the bleaching, but the more likely it is to including tobacco, hard water, tea, coffee and, according produce sensitive teeth. to the actresses, red wine. Teeth may also be iatrogenically I hope that the Minister understands from what I discoloured, the most famous example being tetracycline have said that the procedure should be in the hands of a discolouration. In the early days of antibiotics, children trained dental professional, as misuse can cause harm, were given an antibiotic called tetracycline, which was sometimes extensive harm. Even bleaching at home one of the early broad-spectrum bacteriostatic antibiotics must be under the direction of a dental care professional. and was widely used. Although it generally dealt with Recent decisions of the General Dental Council have the targeted infection, if taken by children it discoloured stated that dental bleaching by trained dental professionals the developing teeth, sometimes to a grotesque degree. is a part of professional dental treatment. That has been Second or adult teeth that have received a blow can endorsed by the Secretary of State for Health and the often darken quite quickly, particularly if the individual Health Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern is young. The teeth most frequently hurt in that way are Ireland. the upper incisors, particularly the upper central incisors. The reason for this preamble is to explain to the Endodontically treated teeth often darken, particularly Minister that the dangers of the material involved when if the operator has been unable to remove, or has not it is misused must be understood and taken into removed, all the pulpal tissue from the internal dentine. consideration. Organisations such as the British Dental Nowadays, dental restorations are generally of a Bleaching Society run certification training courses to more cosmetically acceptable material. If someone is to ensure that the dental professional teams undertaking have a filling, it is good for it to be done in a cosmetically the treatment are properly trained. Unfortunately, a acceptable way. It is becoming increasingly accepted as number of non-dental professionals, particularly in beauty standard practice that when composites, porcelain crowns, salons, are illegally bleaching teeth. Sadly, some of porcelain veneers and porcelain inlays are used for those individuals are using a material called chlorine restorations, it is sensible to bleach the teeth first. That dioxide, which, although it produces an initial appearance achieves a benchmark colour to which the new restoration of whitening teeth, actually badly damages them. 589 Dental Bleaching23 JUNE 2011 Dental Bleaching 590

As the Minister will be aware, the fly in the ointment secondly, to inform all UK trading standards that the is the European cosmetics directive, which restricts the approach taken by Essex and Kent trading standards sale of tooth-bleaching materials containing more than should be the norm. 0.1% hydrogen peroxide. Clearly that makes eminent As the Minister may recall, a few moments ago I sense when applied to over-the-counter medicines, but mentioned beauticians and non-registrants illegally from a dental treatment point of view 0.1% hydrogen bleaching teeth. Many of those people are dangerous. peroxide is absolutely useless. For example, a plasterer from Kent plasters walls during The enforcement of the cosmetics directive is in the the day, and bleaches teeth in people’s homes in the hands of local government trading standards officers evening, using 38% hydrogen peroxide, with no guards on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation or safety measures. To put it bluntly, he probably burns and Skills. Most trading standards officers recognise the gum off the bone and the teeth. He is dangerous. that higher concentrations of hydrogen peroxide delivered Others use chlorine dioxide. As the Minister’s school as part of dental treatment by dental professions are chemistry will tell him, when chlorine dioxide hits water, completely different from over-the-counter sales or the as in saliva, it turns to hydrochloric acid, and eats the actions of non-dental professionals. The directive is enamel surface off the teeth. The initial slight whitening inappropriate, because tooth bleaching is accepted as appearance turns, on further applications, yellow and part of dentistry. then brown, as the dentine shows through because the In 2005, the European Commission scientific committee enamel disappears. To put it bluntly, that simply wrecks on consumer products recommended that tooth-whitening teeth. products containing 0.1% to 6% hydrogen peroxide are To add to those problems, a number of highly acidic not safe to be sold over the counter. The recommendation tooth-whitening products are available over the counter was that they should not be used freely, but that they are for personal, home bleaching. Many are highly acidic. safe to be used after the approval, and under the supervision, All of the highly acidic ones are highly damaging. To of a dentist. Since then, the UK Government, along my amazement, even two reputable UK pharmacies—I with most EU members, have been trying to change the am not naming them for the moment—are selling such directive in the light of the recommendation. However, products over the counter. I am therefore also asking because two or three EU members of the committee the Minister to assist, through trading standards, in keep baulking, there has been no change, despite seven stopping beauticians and other non-dental registrants years of pressure. I understand that the Minister could bleaching teeth. The General Dental Council is taking reassure me tonight that the issue is to be taken above action, but it does not have the strength and spread of the committee, where it is expected to be passed—at trading standards. last—by a majority vote. In addition, will the Minister seek a ban on the use of However, the situation has come to a head locally, as chlorine dioxide for teeth bleaching, including on the the Minister is aware. A patient of a Hull dentist supply of acidic, over-the-counter home bleaching materials? complained to Hull trading standards. Hull trading An awful lot of smiles on the faces of some very pretty standards took samples from the dentist and asked young ladies are being wrecked in the United Kingdom. Essex county council trading standards to investigate a firm called Dental Directory, which is a major supplier 6.19 pm to dentists and the supplier to the Hull dentist in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, question. I believe that Essex trading standards officers Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): I congratulate have taken the names of other suppliers and suggested my hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul to respective trading standards organisations that they Beresford) on securing this important debate. It is not should investigate. Some did so, but others thought it the first time he has come to the House to campaign on through and decided that that was inappropriate. this issue—he deserves a lot of credit for his persistence After full consideration, Essex trading standards sent and determination. This is a serious issue for those an e-mail to Dental Directory, which states: adversely affected by people using certain materials they should not, as he explained. I also thank him for “This Service has no issue with peroxide-based whiteners over the offer to my wife—I will convey it to her later this 0.1% supplied to GDC registered dentists for use in the course of evening. a professional whitening service conducted by a registrant. It is the view of this Service that such treatments would be regulated This is a complex matter involving overlapping issues, by the GDC.” which my hon. Friend highlighted. Particular factors to That is a brilliantly sensible response. consider are: first, that the current European-derived law clearly restricts the level of hydrogen peroxide to a However, another big firm of suppliers, Henry Schein, level at which it cannot bleach teeth. Secondly, prevailing has a number of different depots in different areas, scientific opinion on the safety of hydrogen peroxide in which are covered by different trading standards. It has teeth-whitening products is out of step with current received differing instructions. Kent trading standards maximum limits. Thirdly, how do we most appropriately echoed Essex’s eminently sensible position, but Medway enforce the law? Fourthly, who should be undertaking trading standards informed Henry Schein that it is not teeth whitening? Should the role be reserved to dentists allowed to supply dental bleach with over 0.1% hydrogen or should it be available from other suppliers and even peroxide. Needless to say, enormous pressure was applied. for home use? Finally, there is the issue about the safe I suspect to the Minister’s relief, Medway has reverted use of other substances used as an alternative to hydrogen to the sensible Essex county council position. peroxide. That leaves me with two simple requests for action to Although I recognise how deeply frustrating this sort out this particular nonsense. First, I urge the Minister, matter is for all involved, I will try to address these if at all possible, to obtain a change in the directive, and points and highlight a possible resolution of the issue. 591 Dental Bleaching23 JUNE 2011 Dental Bleaching 592

[Mr Edward Davey] with unsatisfactory or damaging results. My officials will contact the Commission about the concerns of the I hope that I can give my hon. Friend some satisfaction British Dental Association over the use of chlorine tonight, but if there are other points he wishes to make dioxide in teeth-whitening products. that he feels have not been covered, I will be happy to On the question of enforcement, I understand that correspond with him, and if necessary meet him. There there have been concerns about investigations carried is no doubt that teeth-whitening products are cosmetic out by trading standards services into the supply of products within the meaning of the cosmetic products teeth-whitening products, some of which contained directive. Hon. Members will know that the UK has significant levels of hydrogen peroxide—more than the been pressing for a number of years on the cosmetics newly proposed amendment would permit. Trading regulatory committee for the maximum limit for hydrogen standards services have a duty to enforce the Cosmetic peroxide to be increased in line with the opinion of the Products (Safety) Regulations 2008, but they take a scientific committee on consumer products in 2005, to risk-based approach to enforcement. To our knowledge, which my hon. Friend referred. they have never actively targeted dentists, but where The scientific committee’s view was that allowing a suppliers are marketing home-use kits, they have a greater percentage of hydrogen peroxide in teeth-whitening responsibility to investigate where such products could products would not be detrimental to the health of reasonably present a risk to the consumer. consumers. Since then, however, there have been protracted My Department neither controls nor directs trading discussions in Brussels on matters of detail. We are now standards services in their enforcement activities. However, in the position where the European Commission has officials will be making them aware of the latest proposed a number of directives to amend the cosmetic developments in Brussels on the issue, so that they can products directive, each of which has failed. The latest understand the direction in which the law is likely to was submitted to the standing committee on cosmetic develop. Officials have also been in contact with many products for vote by written procedure in May last year, of the trading standards departments looking into the at which time five member states voted against the matter to ensure that a consistent approach will be proposal. taken. Decisions on whether to progress investigations The Commission was therefore required to reconsider into suppliers of home-use kits will remain decisions for its proposal, and has since amended the directive. Instead local authorities. It is unfortunately true, however, that of putting it back through the regulatory standing many suppliers of teeth-whitening products have already committee, the Commission intends to submit it to the anticipated a change in the law, which has made the Council for a council directive. Let me explain the detail task of trading standards officers extremely difficult of this new development. The Commission believes that over the past few years. On a separate but closely related use of teeth-whitening products containing more than note, I am pleased to say that a new and specific element 0.1% and up to 6% hydrogen peroxide can be considered on enforcement will shortly be added to the red tape safe if the following conditions are satisfied: first, if an challenge. We would encourage businesses to go on the appropriate clinical examination takes place to ensure red tape challenge website and tell us about the problems the absence of risk factors; and, secondly, if exposure to they are having with the implementation of regulations. the products is controlled to ensure that they are used as In conclusion, I hope that I have been able to shed intended. Teeth-whitening products should therefore light on the latest developments, which could offer a not be directly available to the consumer. For each cycle way forward on this protracted issue. Subject to agreement of use, the first use should be limited to dental practitioners in Brussels, the new directive will clarify the law. I also or under their direct supervision. This will be communicated believe that the decision of the General Dental Council to the Council before the summer break, and we will will help to clarify the position on the provision of support it. teeth-whitening services. I am grateful to my hon. Friend I note that the General Dental Council considers for enabling me to put that on the record, and I hope tooth whitening the practise of dentistry, which is limited that he and the dentists on whose behalf he has so to GDC registrants, and this ties in with the new proposal persistently advocated will be pleased with it. for a directive. Indeed, earlier this year the GDC successfully prosecuted a non-registrant under the Dentists Act 1984. Question put and agreed to. I would urge members of the public who have received a treatment about which they have concerns to raise it with the GDC. This also applies where alternative teeth- 6.26 pm whitening treatments, such as chlorine dioxide, are used House adjourned. 143WH 23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 144WH

and managed under a 30-year contract through a special Westminster Hall purpose company, which is three-quarters owned by Semperian, a large PFI firm based in the City of London, Thursday 23 June 2011 and one-quarter owned by the French industrial services giant, Sodexo. Non-clinical services are contracted out to Sodexo, WS Atkins and to others. [MRS ANNE MAIN in the Chair] Car parking charges at the hospital have been the source of huge local anger because they penalise patients BACKBENCH BUSINESS at a very vulnerable time in their lives. They particularly hit frequent users such as those visiting in-patients and Private Finance Initiative those suffering from cancer. They are socially regressive, falling relatively harder on the poor than on the rich. As Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting I investigated further, I found that that was only the tip be now adjourned.—(Stephen Crabb) of the iceberg. The reason why the charges were so high was down to the PFI itself, because car parking was 2.30 pm contracted out not once but twice—first to Sodexo and Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) then to CP Plus, and each had its own mark-up. (Con): I am grateful for the opportunity to discuss the important issue of the private finance initiative under Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con): Is my hon. Friend your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I thank the Minister, the aware that fewer than a quarter of England’s 168 NHS Back Bench Business Committee, which allowed us to hospital trusts have significant PFI hospitals within hold this debate, and my many colleagues in the Chamber them, but that those trusts account for almost two-thirds today. of A and E closures or proposed closures? I know from Since its inception in the early 1990s, the private my own observation of the South London Healthcare finance initiative has resulted in more than £200 billion NHS Trust how extreme the operational constraints are of public debt, the cost of which will hang over the that face managers who have PFI hospitals within their British taxpayer for decades. It has created great private trusts and how those hospitals force them to take decisions fortunes and fundamentally shaped the nature of our on operational grounds that might not be in the best public services. It has generated huge public outrage, as interests of patients. we will hear in this debate. It has raised profound issues of fairness between this generation and the next and it Jesse Norman: It seems to be true that many decisions has affected virtually every constituency in the land and were made from a desire to fit the financial cloth to the the lives of millions of people. pocket rather than from the actual clinical needs of the patients. It is certainly true that the squeeze that these For reasons that I will explain, the extraordinary fact inflation-adjusted costs exert on hospitals is heavily is that until now there has never been a full three-hour responsible for the closure of A and E units. debate on the PFI in this House. There has never been a comprehensive assessment by the Government of the Let me return now to the situation at Hereford hospital. cost and benefits of the PFI or a successful attempt to Later PFI contracts have contained financial safeguards collect all of the relevant data about the PFI into one for the NHS, including automatic efficiency savings of place. None the less, the topic of this debate could 3% a year and the right for a hospital to put services out hardly be more relevant. We need to ask three questions. to public tender periodically. However, the Hereford How did we get here? How can we make savings from contract contains neither of those safeguards. There are the PFI for the taxpayer? How can we design a better no automatic efficiency savings, and the contract cannot system for the future? be retendered until 2029. The hospital trust is doing a valiant job, but it has little influence, legal scope or Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I am grateful to my access to underlying costs which might help it to negotiate hon. Friend for bringing this debate to the House. One changes to the contract. Worse still, no mechanism thing I have stumbled across is that the Prison Service exists by which the hospital can group together with does not own a computer because of the PFI. It rents other PFI hospitals to exercise collective influence over them all at the cost of £160 a month, which most people the PFI contractors. By contrast, Semperian has 106 PFI would think was a ludicrous state of affairs. To prevent contracts. The imbalance in power is obvious, yet the such a thing happening again, does he not agree that the NHS seems to have done nothing to remedy that. people who negotiate the contracts within Government For almost a year now, I have been campaigning for a should be surcharged if the National Audit Office or voluntary rebate for taxpayers on the PFI of £500 million some other similar body judges that the contract that to £1 billion. Those are large numbers, but that goal is they entered into was negligent to the taxpayer? not unrealistic.

Jesse Norman: That is an extremely interesting suggestion. Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I hope I am not sure how the details would work, but I will that my hon. Friend does not think that I am sitting on make specific proposals for improvement to public the other side of the Chamber because I do not support procurement later on in my speech. I thank my hon. his proposal; I do support it. May I ask that those who Friend for his intervention. read his words as well as those who listen to them pay Like many colleagues, I first understood the impact some attention to the old Ryrie rules, which were supposed of the private finance initiative through my local hospital. to limit Ministers using private finance when it was not Starting in 1999, Hereford hospital was one of the appropriate? May I also ask my hon. Friend if he would earliest PFI projects. It was built and is currently owned direct the Chamber’s attention to the design, build, 145WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 146WH

[Sir Peter Bottomley] Ministry of Defence has announced that it is reopening three major contracts as part of its own renegotiation finance and operate Dartford crossing, which was a strategy; and the Treasury has opened discussions with proper use of the private sector? There was a limit to the the PFI industry about a new code of conduct and it amount of time that the project could be charged and it has recently concluded a “deep dive” investigation of had an income stream, so there was no powerful debt the PFI contract at the Queen’s hospital in Romford. either. That is the first time in 15 years that a Government have taken a forensic look at a specific PFI contract, and it Jesse Norman: I shall be talking about the early sends out a clear signal of intent to dozens of other PFI history of the PFI shortly. As my hon. Friend implies, projects. So we are making progress. That is the context the Ryrie rules were an important part of the fiscal for this debate—the first Parliamentary debate on the stringency that surrounded that project. What the issue PFI—and I hope that colleagues from all parties will of the Dartford crossing brings out is that PFI is often make their support loud and clear for these actions for successful on these economic infrastructure projects better public services and real savings for the taxpayer. and less effective on social infrastructure projects. However, to understand the present we must understand the past. How did we get to such a sorry state of affairs Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): While my hon. with the PFI? The history is surprising and damning by Friend is on the subject of a voluntary rebate, is he turns. It can be divided into three phrases: experiment; aware of the research from the university of Adelaide ramp-up; and standstill. The PFI was introduced in showing that the average profit made when PFI equity 1992 from Australia by the Major Government, which on hospital projects is sold on was more than 66%. Is it was interested in how private capital and expertise not the case that we should be looking at something could be used to support the public services. Labour more than voluntary? Members often deride the Conservatives for introducing Jesse Norman: At this point, I want to keep the rebate the PFI, but the facts tell a very different story. The voluntary because we are making good progress, but Major Government could not make the PFI work. They there are many Members of this House who feel that insisted on judging each deal on its merits, having something more stringent would be appropriate. In the inherited a structure from the Ryrie rules, and the assessment of the profits on these equity stakes, I would merits were sometimes very thin indeed. By 1996, barely caution that in some cases those equity stakes have been £6 billion worth of PFIs had been approved and no PFI built up over a considerable period of time and one hospitals had been approved, let alone built. should not necessarily look at just the headline number Meanwhile, Labour was split. Old Labourites denounced if it is the result of a 10 or 15-year investment. the PFI in traditional terms as “creeping privatisation”, I have spoken about the campaign that we have run but it is often forgotten that the new Labour position so far. An important feature of the rebate campaign is was the exact opposite of that. New Labour thought that at least part of any savings would remain with the that the PFI was a good thing and that the problem was public service involved. The result, therefore, would be a that the Tories had not gone ahead with it fast enough. win not merely for the taxpayer but for local communities, In a speech in Parliament on 28 November 1995, Tony which could potentially benefit from many millions of Blair rammed that point home repeatedly. His position pounds in savings over the next two decades. was perfectly clear: Let me make it clear that I am not for one moment “The PFI is right in principle. We have supported it, and in suggesting that existing PFI contracts should be torn many ways we have been advocating it.” up, but contracts are routinely renegotiated in the private At that point, John Prescott, who is now Lord Prescott, sector. The rebate would be a voluntary one, and not a helpfully intervened with, “We initiated it.”Blair continued: haircut imposed by Government. There is a valid precedent “It should not be manipulated to cook the books of public in the code of conduct that was signed in 2002, by finance.”—[Official Report, 28 November 1995; Vol. 267, c. 1077.] which the contractors agreed to share windfall refinancing On that point at least, the future Prime Minister and his gains with the taxpayer. It may be that that code of Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and conduct needs to be further extended to the secondary Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), were agreed, since the right market trading of equities. hon. Gentleman also remarked in the early 1990s that What I did not expect was the level of support that I “PFI is a cynical distortion of the public accounts.” and colleagues have received from key players in the How are the mighty fallen, and in what disgrace. We PFI industry itself. They know that something is wrong. are accustomed to make fun of Lord Prescott—rightly They are aware of public concern, and they want to so—but at that point he spoke truer than he knew. In participate in the next generation of economic infrastructure. many ways, Labour was in fact the real originator of the Having started as a solo mission, the campaign has PFI in its current form. In 1997, the new Chancellor, the become a cross-party movement of more than 70 Members right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, of Parliament. We have sat down with many large PFI and his then adviser, the right hon. Member for Morley companies and talked in detail about the scope for and Outwood (Ed Balls), were tied down by the promise savings. that Labour had made to stick to Conservative spending Parliamentary concern about the costs of the PFI has plans for two years. They had committed to keep public resulted in an inquiry by the Treasury Committee and, sector net debt below 40% of GDP, according to their to their huge credit, the Government are taking the idea sustainable investment rule, but they were desperate to of a rebate very seriously indeed. Ministers at every leave a “legacy” by building a huge amount of public level have made clear their desire to see savings. The infrastructure. They quickly spotted that PFI projects Cabinet Office has been looking closely at the PFI in its offered a way out of that quandary, because PFI liabilities quest for greater efficiency across the public sector; the could be treated as off-balance sheet and so they would 147WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 148WH never appear formally within the net debt numbers. Of for equity holders the financial returns have been on course, as we now know, they later fudged the sustainable occasion up to six times higher than the level of risk investment rule by redefining the economic cycle and would justify. then the rule was blown apart as the financial crisis There have been important secondary effects. The took hold. ramp-up of PFI projects helped to create an artificial After the 1997 election, the new Paymaster General, boom in construction, which pushed up costs and over- the hon. Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson), extended the construction industry. Within the NHS, it summarily fired Alastair Ross Goobey, the chair of the has resulted in a huge and inflexibly designed Maginot PFI panel and a man with an impeccable record of line of hospitals, each one on inflation-adjusted contracts protecting shareholder value, and ramped up the PFI lasting decades, at a time when health care is moving dramatically. Over time, an unholy alliance developed towards more flexible models that combine specialist between the Labour Government and the PFI companies. institutions with health and social care nearer to the home. PFI became the “only game in town”, as more and more projects were pushed in its direction by Government Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): First Departments that were desperate for capital spend but and foremost, I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing prevented by central Government from looking at such an important debate. It is a testament to his alternatives. tenacity, research and expertise in this field that this That ramp-up was aided by the introduction of PFI debate has been attended by so many Members. I concur credits, which allowed Departments to avoid running with his view that the PFI picture is mixed— local authority PFI spend through their own budgets, thus evading responsibility for them; it was also aided Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I remind the by the use of high official project discount rates, which hon. Gentleman that interventions must be brief. artificially privileged the PFI over other forms of procurement; and it was also aided by the unwillingness Paul Uppal: I will attempt to be brief. Does he concur of both the Blair and Brown Governments to permit with my view that, although the picture is mixed, the debate on the issue, conduct any overall analysis of the fundamental issue is that the PFIs are often short-term PFI’s cost-effectiveness or gather the full data on primary solutions to the long-term problems that we face in and secondary transactions, which would have allowed government? That is illustrated exactly by the issue with proper transparency and proper public accountability. Southern Cross, which has often used sale and leaseback Frankly, that was disgraceful behaviour. to finance its own businesses. Fast forward to today and what do we find? More than 800 PFI projects are now in place, covering every Jesse Norman: I thank my hon. Friend for that imaginable form of public infrastructure from hospitals intervention. I absolutely share his view that there is an and schools to roads and military hardware. Nearly interaction between inflation-adjusted costs and budgets, £70 billion—not £6 billion, as was the case in 1997—of which of necessity are less able to rise, and that that capital commitments have been made, with a total interaction creates tremendous tension within these liability to the taxpayer of well over £200 billion. And— institutions. In many ways, Southern Cross is rather irony of ironies—new accountancy rules are in place similar to the PFI, as the Chairman of the Health that require PFI debt to appear in the national accounts Committee, the right hon. Member for Charnwood after all. The Balls-Brown attempt to fix the books has (Mr Dorrell), reminded me this morning. The PFI costs proven to be a failure, and a costly failure to boot. for hospitals that I have been describing are not under the hospitals’ control, so the effect of escalating payments It is important to say that many PFI projects have will be to suck up free cash flow within hospital trusts, been completed on time and within budget. There is a to reduce flexibility and to impede innovation, just mixed picture. Contractors such as Jarvis have gone when those things are most needed. bust when projects failed, or taken huge financial hits. Also, conventional procurement itself has not always We are in an unhappy mess, which is the true legacy covered itself in glory, as demonstrated by the Eurofighter, of Messrs Brown and Balls. We shall better see the Wembley stadium and British Library projects. financial extent of that mess in July, when the Office for Budget Responsibility reports on the whole of Government In response, it is easy to highlight the many PFI accounts. However, the key point is that, although PFI projects that have been horrendously overpriced. They was expensive before 2008, since 2008 it has become range from huge deals, such as the Airtanker contract, exorbitant. As a result of the financial crisis, PFI credit which is now estimated to cost £1.5 billion too much, margins over gilts have risen from an average of around and the M25 widening, which is now estimated to cost 0.75% to between 2.5% and 3%. Specific projects have £1 billion too much, to tiny but telling details about even worse financial profiles. For example, the outline smaller schemes, such as the kennels at the Defence business case for the £244 million Royal Liverpool and Animal Centre in Melton Mowbray, which cost more Broadgreen University hospital projects a weighted return per night than rooms at the London Hilton. to investors of 8.58%. That is more than double the rate An even more telling criticism emerges if we look at on long-term Government gilts, which is 4%. The extra the overall record on the PFI. We now know that there cost is such that there is now a strong case for a is no general evidence that the PFI is cost-effective, or one-year moratorium on that project, as on others, to that the PFI improves the quality of buildings. Average allow proper consideration of alternatives and I encourage annual maintenance costs are higher in PFI hospitals the Government to consider that suggestion closely. than in non-PFI hospitals. The most detailed study of I shall sum up. A new settlement is needed on the PFI hospitals demonstrates that there is a large element PFI, and I offer three recommendations. The first is of excess return to both debt and equity holders. Indeed, that the Government should take steps to improve their 149WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 150WH

[Jesse Norman] it, without being able to put my finger on what that was, until I met an investment banker at a private event in database on PFI deals, and their collection of new data. 2003. He was a securitisation expert and had been The quality and quantity of PFI data are surprisingly involved in many PFI projects. He said: “I like the PFI. bad. On primary deals, it is due to inconsistencies in It’s a good source of income and is good for the collection, and on secondary market deals it results business, but as a taxpayer it really pisses me off.” That from a hands-off methodology, which regards trades in rather woke me up. This was not a trade unionist PFI debt and equity as purely private transactions, complaining about costs being cut by worsening the outside the scope of government. All aspects of data terms and conditions of his members; it was a City fat collection should be reviewed and improved. cat getting fatter on the proceeds. My second recommendation is that the Government As a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I should undertake a major consultation soon on the best used to get invited to conferences on the PFI, when it means to procure and finance new infrastructure. This was in its earlier heyday under new Labour. At those country badly needs new infrastructure, at a likely cost events, I met a group of people whom one can only of hundreds of billions of pounds over the next few really describe as theologians for the PFI. Rather like decades, and the private sector has a vital role to play. some Marxists, or even some Roman Catholics, there To finance that development, we need alternatives to was no question to which they would not have an the PFI, and several economic models are available. answer. It was a sort of self-containing system, at the These include regulated asset base models developed root of which was the idea that the PFI was a competitive from the utilities market, property-based models, strategic bidding process and that there was no possibility of its infrastructure partnerships and tax increment financing, not being all sorted out and being in the best possible as well as a reconsideration of conventional procurement interests of clients—the public authorities involved. methods. I have recently advocated the idea of a national After all, it was a competitive, open-market process in asset trust fund as well, in a publication of my own. The which anyone could bid, and certain things would already consultation should also focus on how procurement is be in the price. It was almost as if they were talking done. Should different models be used for different about the market for foreign exchange, or another perfect sectors? How can public sector institutions be made market. We know, of course, that because of the huge into better clients? costs involved in bidding for a large project, the PFI has Thirdly, and finally, the Government should continue far more of the characteristics of an oligopoly. The their current drive towards a taxpayer rebate and a new Royal Institute of British Architects estimated, many code of conduct on the PFI, if possible with every PFI years ago, that the cost of bidding for a PFI hospital company involved. Many have already engaged with the was more than £11 million—probably significantly higher Treasury, but some— particularly some large banks, now. All those costs end up getting passed on to the accountancy firms and legal advisers—have yet to do client. so. I have written to the head of every major PFI firm to The other thing that these theologians would suggest put the question directly to them, and I plan to keep the was that it would not be possible for anything to go House informed of their participation. The code of wrong, because it would not be possible to have an conduct would in due course lead to a matrix of all PFI ill-informed or inexperienced client. There would be no transactions, which would show savings agreed with the question of there not being the right experience on the private sector to ensure that they were fairly shared. client side, or the right capacity or resources to manage That will require implementation over some months, so a project after a contract had been signed. It was as if that the savings are genuinely realised. The Treasury all must be for the best in the best of all possible worlds, could also set up a small team to advise individual because it could not be any other way. I continued, hospitals and other public services on how to benefit however, to be suspicious, and I continued to go to the most from the rebate process, with the team’s costs conferences, becoming ruder and ruder until, I am being met out of the savings generated. One thing, pleased to say, they stopped inviting me. Customers however, is vital. Most of any rebate should of course paid £1,000 to attend and all I got out of it was a slap in go back to the Treasury, and on to the taxpayer, but a the face with a wet haddock and a one-way ticket to portion should remain with the affected local public Great Yarmouth, so I am glad that I am no longer service, so that local people can be absolutely certain invited. that their school, or hospital, has benefited. I must congratulate the National Audit Office on I very much hope that all colleagues present—and something that recently opened my eyes. The NAO has there are many—will support these recommendations, produced more than 60 reports on the PFI in the past and will join me in pressing the Government to ensure decade, and I have been pleading with it for years to do that savings are made and local people feel the benefit. more synthesis. We have had analysis after analysis after analysis, and project after project, and in the office’s 2.52 pm recent report, published in late April, there is more Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con): I join synthesis of some PFI issues. I had a light-bulb moment other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. Friend when I read on page 7 of the report, in a section about the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire the skills, capacity and experience used in negotiating: (Jesse Norman) on his tremendous campaign. It has “high margins on the changes in asset usage which are likely to been a marvellous example of leadership, which is built occur over a long contract.” on his expertise, and we are all in his debt. I realised that the providers know full well that it is not I have been watching the private finance initiative possible to write a contract that is flexible enough to from my position on the Public Accounts Committee last for 25 to 30 years, and so they do two things. One is for many years. I always had a sneaky suspicion about that they insure themselves by tying down every conceivable 151WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 152WH cost that might arise—every conceivable risk with its ran with it. I talked to Lord Lamont, the former Chancellor attached price. That process is enormously expensive, of the Exchequer, at a dinner a couple of years ago. He and it is reflected in the figure of £11 million that the said that he had asked the hon. Member for Coventry Royal Institute of British Architects came up with. North West before the 1997 election, “How on earth are Although it is true, as my hon. Friend the Member for you going to finance all these grand promises in your Hereford and South Herefordshire has said, that in rare manifesto?” He replied, “Oh, it’s simple—we’ll take instances people have lost a packet on projects, such as your idea of the PFI and run with it.” Lord Lamont Jarvis, the National Physical Laboratory and the joint said, “But the rules won’t let you,” to which the hon. services command and staff college in Shrivenham—Laing Member for Coventry North West replied, “Oh, we’ll had to sell its construction business after that—the ignore your stupid rules.” He was very candid about it, contractors have a lot of people involved, and they do it in fairness to him. well, insuring themselves on the downside pretty effectively, One of the things that I have regretted about the past to ensure that they make money whatever happens. few years of the PFI is that, in areas such as health and The other light-bulb moment in my reading of the education, where it would have been fairly easy to do NAO report was when I came to: this, the Government did not insist on developing, at “as major contractors seek to develop their income from the the same time, identical or nearly identical clusters and project”. baskets of projects, so that we would then have had a I thought to myself, “Hang on a minute. How do you proper way of comparing, over a period of years—three, develop your income from the contract? Okay, you five, seven and 12 years out—what had actually proved might index the contract to protect yourself from inflation, to be greater value for money. but basically you have a contract and you provide Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con): Is my hon. services. It is predictable, and that is why you know Friend also aware that the issue extends to the emergency what you’ll get going forward.” No. They know full well services? Nottinghamshire police find themselves in a when they sign up that it is not possible for the public situation whereby their vehicle fleet is PFI-ed, and it authority, particularly those in education and health, to costs hundreds of pounds just to repair a puncture. write a contract that is flexible enough to last for 25 to 35 years. They ensure that all their risks are covered and Mr Bacon: Yes, and of course, we cannot blame the then develop their income from the contract over time, private sector for protecting its downside and ensuring as changes occur. One can also see a sudden shift. Just that it makes money rather than loses it. One of the as the flagship Norfolk and Norwich hospital in my most extraordinary things about all this is the naivety of constituency was finished, the mood music suddenly many of the people in the civil service who have negotiated changed towards much more primary, locally based these projects over the years. They do not seem to care. understand that the private sector players are profit The contractors also do fancy financial engineering. maximisers. If they have a chance to make money, they The Norfolk and Norwich hospital was perhaps the will, and if they have a chance to make more money, locus classicus of that. The contractors added about they will. A certain lack of commercial nous and capacity £100 million in extra debt to the contract at the time of on the part of the public sector has coloured all this. refinancing, thus accelerating their return from the project. Turning to the proposals of my hon. Friend the The NAO produced a report specifically on that hospital, Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire on steps which stated that not only was the repayment period for to improve data, one of the things that have shocked me the hospital extended from 34 years to 39 years—it is throughout is the difficulty in getting a view from hard to see how that was in the interests of taxpayers—but 100,000 feet of what is going on. I have spent years on the rate of return for the investors was accelerated from the PAC trying to get answers out of the Treasury and 18.9% to more than 60%, more than tripling it. If they other authorities about what is going on, and only very can get all their money out that quickly, it means that it recently has anything started to emerge that looks like a is not nearly as important, and there is not nearly the coherent picture. My hon. Friend is absolutely right same incentive, to carry on managing the contract in the that we need to think about a variety of different same way as before. approaches to financing infrastructure. We need to make My hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South the PFI compete for business, if we are to use it at all in Herefordshire made another important point when he the future. said that we should not kid ourselves that it has all been There is a paradox in relation to future proposals. plain sailing in the conventional procurement world. He The NAO report refers to the fact that there is a pipeline has mentioned the British Library. One might also of £200 billion-worth of transport and energy infrastructure mention the Scottish Parliament and the Jubilee line projects, and it is precisely for those sorts of enormous, extension. I was told that the cost overrun for the long-term projects that a PFI-type structure might have windows of Portcullis House—which, again, was a more attractions to it. However, we have to be able to conventional procurement that the Public Accounts break down the different components. There is often Committee looked at when it first opened years ago—was absolutely no need to ascribe to the entire 35-year so huge that it would have been cheaper to have clad the period of a project the risks that, in truth, only apply for exterior of Portcullis House with BMW 7 series cars. the first few years, yet that is what many PFI lawyers We should not be under any illusion that the conventional have been able to get away with in many cases. method has worked as well as it should. My hon. Friend’s campaign for a rebate is fascinating The attempt to find a way to get projects delivered on and has certainly caught the attention of the PFI industry. budget, on time had a certain merit. My hon. Friend He has led the way on this. It is a remarkable testament was absolutely right to point out that the hon. Member to the fact that people in the industry know that things for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) took this and have been going wrong that so many of them have been 153WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 154WH

[Mr Bacon] interested to hear more from the hon. Gentleman about his negotiations with other contractors and whether he prepared to co-operate. Interestingly, at the PAC hearing thinks there is more interest in some kind of voluntary on the NAO report the other day, one of the witnesses, scheme. Graham Beazley-Long, from Innisfree, was asked whether We all recognise that it is difficult to ask the private it would be reasonable for equity gains to be shared sector to renegotiate a contract that it has signed up to with the taxpayer. He was perfectly prepared to discuss in good faith. That therefore calls into question some of the matter. He said that the Treasury and Infrastructure the ways in which we might deal with some of the UK problems with PFI, particularly the way in which the “would have a view on whether that pushed up the costs of initial decision to move to PFI was made, which is capital”. something that I want to address. We must also consider In other words, it was all just a negotiation and a certain what it would mean if those contracts were renegotiated. return would be demanded by investors, and if the I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that there is a taxpayer wanted to pay that up in advance, they could real concern that, if any contract is renegotiated, especially get it back again. There is probably an element of truth if capital parts of a project have been completed, it is in that, but my sense over the years is that the PFI services that will actually get renegotiated. Many of us industry, out of which a large number of people have are concerned that the renegotiation of services could made a great deal of money, has not been made to mean fewer services, particularly in public institutions compete hard enough. There are a number of ways in such as hospitals. Renegotiating services could have a which they could do that. We should have some negative impact on many of our constituents. conventional clusters that give us, as taxpayers, the More fundamentally, on the hon. Gentleman’s concerns ability to compare over the long term, and we should be about PFI, I hope that I can convince him that, rather much more innovative, as my hon. Friend has suggested—I than pursue a voluntary rebate—as I have said, it has hope that we hear more about his proposal for a national transpired from our discussions with the industry that asset trust fund—in securing alternative methods for that is not what the Treasury has been doing and that infrastructure finance, so that the PFI industry knows the industry is not aware of such conversations—we that it is not the only game in town. should look at the tax status of these companies. I am sorry that he was not able to sit through the second half 3.5 pm of our hearing, where we heard some frankly shocking Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op): I rise to evidence from Treasury officials about their approach speak as another member of the Public Accounts to the situation. The issue is of particular importance to Committee, which lays claim to having had a number of the PFI, because when a decision to go to the PFI is debates about the PFI, as has the Treasury Committee. made, one of the value-for-money constructs is an I congratulate the hon. Member for Hereford and South assessment of the amount of tax that will be returned to Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing this interesting the Exchequer through working with a private company and important debate about the PFI, which has been a in the UK over the course of the contract. It is set out key part of investment in this country for more than a clearly in the Green Book that the Government make decade, and how we make the way in which we invest in an assessment not of the specific company’s tax take, our infrastructure as a country work. I have a lot of but of the general tax take that can be expected from sympathy with his concerns about whether the contracts working with the private sector in the UK in order to have been done to the best of their availability and what build a project. we can do to improve them. There have been a number of debates and efforts to improve them, and I welcome Mr Bacon: Was it not richly ironic that Revenue and the fact that he is saying that there is mixed picture on Customs, of all bodies, outsourced its entire estate for the PFI in terms of where it has delivered and that all HMRC offices across the country to a PFI company perhaps we can learn from where it has not delivered. that then took them offshore and based them in a tax I want to set out some of my concerns about the hon. haven in Bermuda? Gentleman’s proposals for the future. What really matters, given that a record 61 projects are currently being Stella Creasy: One of the genuine delights about negotiated under the PFI, is how we can learn from serving on the Public Accounts Committee with the what has happened. That has certainly been one of our hon. Gentleman is that he has such a wealth of knowledge key messages on the PAC, and I am sure that my fellow and anecdotes that clearly illustrate the challenges that Committee members agree that we need to look at what we are dealing with. He took part in the Committee’s we can learn and where we can make progress. One of session, so he will know that I have grave concerns that the things that has surprised us on the PAC, as the hon. moving assets overseas to offshore tax havens has substantial Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) has mentioned, consequences for our assessment of the value for money is the way in which negotiations on the PFI have taken of PFIs. When the decision to go for a PFI project is place and the revelation from one of the major PFI taken, an assessment is made of the tax that we will get companies that it has not been talking to the Government in return, but there is widespread evidence that many about the possibility of a rebate, which is an issue that companies then move their assets overseas to offshore the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire tax havens. In fact, the Treasury Committee took evidence has raised, or about where contracts might be renegotiated. showing that 91 PFI projects were owned by secondary Mr Metter from the industry used the colourful market infrastructure funds, so we are losing money. phrase that he would not ask his investors to take a One of the best examples of that problem is a body set haircut, by which he meant that he did not feel that it up by HSBC. The HSBC Infrastructure Company Ltd, was possible to look at a voluntary scheme. I would be which manages a number of hospitals in this country, 155WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 156WH has made £38 million in profit from 33 PFI schemes, but change if we can all agree that we want to improve the it has paid just £100,000 in tax in the UK in the past six way in which the PFI operates, if it continues to be months. taken forward. The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Just to has said that the PFI might be a better model for some clarify, is the hon. Lady suggesting that, as part of the types of infrastructure projects than others, but the list negotiation of a PFI contract for, say, an NHS hospital, of the 61 projects that the Treasury is developing includes a calculation is done on the basis of what corporation a wide range of projects, including hospitals, schools, tax would be paid? Were NHS trusts doing that? I am a fire buildings, roads and police stations, so this is a live bit surprised to hear that. issue. We could be making progress on challenging the costs to the Exchequer and the value for money of Stella Creasy: No, let me be clear. The Treasury uses projects, but there is no commitment from the Treasury the Green Book to assess whether a PFI is an appropriate to look at these issues. model. An assessment is made specifically of the Exchequer’s tax take over the life of the contract. It is Those are the main concerns that I wanted to put on precisely because that is part of the value-for-money the record about the hon. Gentleman’s campaign. First, assessment that I have great concerns about the fact were we to push for a rebate, it would be difficult to get that we are not getting the tax we expected, which the private sector to renegotiate, although I wish him would make the PFI a reasonable model to use. well in looking for haircuts from people such as David Metter. Secondly, there might be very real consequences It is therefore fair to ask what we can do. If the for the renegotiation of the cost of the services that are Government are proceeding with the PFI—that is an delivered, although I am sure that they would be unintended interesting issue for Government Back Benchers who consequences as far as the hon. Gentleman is concerned. are concerned about this issue—what action are they taking to learn from the way in which previous contracts Thirdly, it is a real concern that we may leave untouched were negotiated? One thing that is clear to those of us the tax status of these companies and the money that on the PAC is that there is a better understanding of the the Exchequer might lose, but which was part of the skills needed to negotiate these contracts. The hon. original decision to go for a PFI project. In putting as Member for South Norfolk was clear about the skills much pressure as possible on the Government to talk to needed in the public sector to negotiate with the private companies—the briefing says Ministers have, but the sector and to improve the way in which contracts are reality revealed in the PAC is that they have not—I hope negotiated. We must also appreciate that we in the the hon. Gentleman will also put pressure on them to public sector have tried to renegotiate contracts after look at companies’ tax status. I hope he will put pressure the fact by asking for increased provision in our hospitals, on them to look at how we can close the present for example, or by looking at different services. That, of loophole, so that we can be sure that where an assessment course, has consequences for the response from the is made of the money that will be returned to the private sector. Exchequer over 30 years or whatever term is chosen for the 61 projects, the Exchequer will actually recoup that The fundamental question as regards continuing with money. We all agree that value for money should be at the PFI—the Government certainly seem content to do the top of the agenda, and we should be thinking about so—is what action Ministers are taking on tax and tax the best way to get the infrastructure buildings that our havens. The hon. Member for Hereford and South country will need in the future. If so, how do we make Herefordshire is right that we need better data on tax sure, not only when the contract is committed to but in assessments, and those of us on the PAC were certainly the years ahead, that we are securing that value for unable to get information about assessments of the tax money? that various PFI projects were expected to generate when they were commissioned and about what would I congratulate the hon. Member for Hereford and happen next. What concerned us was that, although South Herefordshire on securing the debate, and I urge Treasury officials accepted that an initial assessment him to think about his target. I look forward to hearing would be made, they were clear that no assessment what he has to say later. would be made further down the line of whether that rose— initial assessment had been reasonable. Several hon. Members Indeed, there has been no learning about the way in Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. Before I call the which tax is assessed in decisions to go for the PFI, even next speaker, I remind hon. Members that a lot of though that could be used in future contracts. Specifically, people want to participate in the debate. I hope everybody officials were clear that there is no commitment from will be called, and I am allowing for interventions, but I the Government to look at the tax status of funds or ask hon. Members to bear that in mind. even to explore what action might be taken to, for example, require a company bidding for a PFI contract to show in its books that it has been operating in the 3.16 pm UK for the past five years, so that we can be confident Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): that the bulk of its work is done in this country and, The PFI is one of those incredibly important, but therefore, that we would get the tax back. We would unutterably dull subjects, that make an awful lot of then have a reasonable expectation that the Treasury people’s eyes glaze over. It is rather astonishing that the would recoup the general sum that was part of the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) is the calculation. This is not a new concern or a new idea; in only person, other than the shadow Minister, who is fact, a previous Labour Member tabled a private Member’s representing the Labour party here. I do not know Bill on precisely this point, but it did not receive support whether that is because Labour Members are embarrassed from the then Opposition, and I hope that that will about their hand in the mass of PFI projects that have 157WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 158WH

[Andrea Leadsom] than private companies can, or than are available elsewhere, so what is the advantage in not just proceeding by cost the taxpayer so dearly, but it is interesting that only Government borrowing at the cheaper rate? the hon. Lady and the shadow Minister are here from the Opposition, while so many Government Members Andrea Leadsom: I was coming to exactly that point. are present. The point is that funding the project through a special purpose vehicle means that it is not consolidated into I am a bit of a stuck record on this issue, but we have the national debt picture. In other words, it is an off-balance a complete lack of competition in the PFI world. Like sheet form of financing. Therefore, for a Government others, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for who want to spend a lot of money on capital projects Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on without blowing up their national debt picture, it is the being so diligent and tenacious in putting forward the perfect opportunity. taxpayer’s interests in the PFI debate. He and I have met a number of PFI providers together, and it was apparent Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): that there was complete denial of the fact that there was Further to the point made by the hon. Member for anything resembling a lack of competition or that there Cambridge (Dr Huppert), is it not a central claim made might have been oligopolistic profits. by the industry that part of the advantage is the In his campaign, my hon. Friend has been careful to management of construction risk? One of the issues, suggest a voluntary rebate—there is no compulsion. however, which my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford The hon. Member for Walthamstow would need to and South Herefordshire referred to, is the bundling of think carefully about trying retrospectively to change contracts. The construction risk and the design are taxation rules or doing anything that smacked of changing bundled with the management service charge, and that the game for existing PFI deals, notwithstanding the drives some of the complexity, which drives some of the need to ensure that we get better value for the taxpayer cost. in deals going forward. Andrea Leadsom: I think that my hon. Friends are In my home county of Northamptonshire, we have reading my speech, because that was to be my next what is believed to be the biggest schools PFI project in point. They have obviously been given advance notice. Europe, which incorporates 74 schools. At the time the That is exactly the point: the builder, in theory, takes the project was entered into, it really was the only game in risk on a project such as building a school, and the LEA town. However, it is incredibly important, albeit rather only ever starts to repay the debt when the school is dull, to understand why PFI has been such a contentious built and everything is in place. Theoretically, the builder subject and why it has resulted in unintended consequences, takes the project risk. However, as my hon. Friend the such as charges of £1,000 to change a power point. Member for North East Cambridgeshire says, in reality The important thing to understand, which many there is bundling, and because there are sometimes taxpayers do not really understand, is why PFI contracts unique risks to a project, often those revert to the LEA. are so inflexible and expensive, and I want to take a The perceived advantages from the fact that the builder moment to explain that very simply. PFI may involve a takes the project risk are therefore not always as clear local education authority deciding to build a new school. cut as they might appear. In the end the major advantage The LEA will invite one of what turns out to be a fairly has been that of not consolidating the debt on the small group of builders to bid for the project. The national balance sheet. building firm will go to a group of banks, which will look at what they can fund over perhaps 25 years. The George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): On banks will come back to the builder with a specific that point, is my hon. Friend aware that, as well as contract for delivery of the school and offer funding for being poor value for money for the taxpayer, PFI contracts the project, with the expectation that the LEA will start have caused problems with the restructuring of certain repaying the debt incurred in building the school only elements of the public sector? For instance, several once the school is delivered and inhabited by children. schools that have become academies have had all sorts Effectively, a special purpose company has been set up of problems with their PFI contracts, causing tensions to build the school. The bank funds it, the building between them and the local authority. Sometimes those company organises it and the LEA takes it over on day problems have been a block to a school’s moving to one and starts repaying the debt. Inevitably, without a academy status. specific debt on the general obligations of the local education authority or on the UK, the beauty of the Andrea Leadsom: Again, my hon. Friend takes me to project was that it did not consolidate into our national my next point: the other side of the equation is the very debt picture. Of course, bearing in mind the dreadful apparent disadvantages of PFI, the primary and key mess of our economic situation left by the previous one being the lack of flexibility. The reason for it is that Government, there is no chance that we could now often a special purpose vehicle sets up the project, and begin to consider only normal, conventional procurement. therefore the project is inexorably linked to the financing The potential for making loans against such projects, of it. For example, you may build a school and decide secured on the project itself, must remain—so we must you want an extra classroom or two. A PFI school in get much cleverer about it. the constituency of a member of the Treasury Committee built its hockey pitch 2 feet too short for internationals, so it tried to extend it by 2 feet, but therein lay a can of Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Can the hon. worms. It was impossible to do it other than at exorbitant Lady perhaps help with something that I have never cost, because the contract and the financing of it are understood about Labour’s obsession with the PFI? In inextricably tied together within the special purpose general the Government can get lower rates for borrowing company. What happens, and the reason hon. Members 159WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 160WH have spoken of money being made out of the contract often they bid only for perhaps one in three deals. Since as it proceeds, is precisely that if you want to change the there are only six or seven major PFI providers, that spec—which of course you do— means there are probably only two, or at most three, serious bidders for any deal; that suggests an enormous Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. The hon. Lady lack of competition. has on occasion referred to my wanting to do many However, we are now thinking about the green investment things. I do not want to do any of them, but I am bank—a brand new idea for this country, whose time listening with interest. has come. That bank will be looking to fund many of the low-carbon, high-tech and potentially economic Andrea Leadsom: I am sure that, privately, you might infrastructure projects of the future, such as offshore be interested Mrs Main, but thank you for keeping me wind farms—I shall not talk about railways, but others in order. might; hon. Members will appreciate my personal sensitivity What you—[HON.MEMBERS: “One!”]—or rather not there. Offshore wind farms, roads and all the rest require you, Mrs Main, but an LEA wanting to build a school, long-term financing. That is a big challenge, and the would need would be to have the entire specification for green investment bank could address it. the school for the subsequent 25 years up front. That is clearly impossible, and the banks make their money by Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I totally agree with the charging enormous arrangement fees and ongoing charges hon. Lady about the green investment bank. Does she as schools change their requirements. That is how the think that that could prove to be a model for types of money continues to come in from those projects. investment other than green infrastructure—things more along the lines of some of the PFI issues that are David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): The point causing a problem at the moment? that I believe is at issue is procurement failure. To take the example of the hockey pitch, if it is built 2 feet too Andrea Leadsom: Yes, I think that that is right. The short, that is a procurement failure. It is not necessary a green investment bank will have the specific remit of specification issue—there are such words as “fit for promoting green investments, and that is right and purpose”. The real issue with all the stuff we are talking proper; but alternatives could be talked about. about is that the public sector is incapable of procuring What I propose is specific: it is that the green investment projects of that complexity. That is what happens, and bank should be a bank in its own right. It should be that is why so much money is made in change requests. listed on the London stock exchange and the Government It is not principally to do with financing. should have perhaps a 10% shareholding in it. The UK high street banks should have the offer to purchase up Andrea Leadsom: My hon. Friend makes a good to a 15% shareholding each, and the final 15% to 20% point, and many of the problems arising from PFI have shareholding should be offered at a highly discounted happened because the private sector saw the public rate to the British taxpayer. We would therefore have a sector coming. There have been all sorts of issues with bank with an undoubted triple A credit rating that poor public procurement, and where two PCTs in would be able to fund itself extraordinarily cheaply— neighbouring counties have both commissioned a hospital, somewhere between Government gilts and triple A bank one has not learned the lessons of the other. Everyone finance—and access the international capital markets, comes at the thing afresh, and they all have the same including very long-term funding. problems and run into the same weaknesses. Nevertheless, That would kill many birds with one stone because there is an inherent lack of flexibility built into the there would be instant competition in the PFI market, projects, which cannot be overcome. It is therefore which is something we desperately need, and an instant incredibly important to consider that the PFI on its and huge threatening competition to the UK banking own, even if it were the cheapest option, and even sector, about which we on the Treasury Committee are though it does not at the moment have an impact on extremely worried. With its green remit, there would our national debt picture, has an inherent weakness in also potentially be a big competitor in the small and its structure. medium-sized enterprise market, about which I think The other massive weakness in the structure, which all colleagues are concerned. I strongly ask my hon. has been exacerbated since the financial crisis, is the Friend the Minister to consider the prospect that the cost. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and green investment bank could provide a realistic alternative South Herefordshire said, the reality now, with Government to PFI. gilts at about 3% to 4% long term, is that direct Government procurement would be much cheaper than a bank trying Several hon. Members rose— to fund a project itself over five to 25 years and make a profit, where the net cost to the taxpayer ends up at 8% Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. As I have said, or 9%. There is an enormous difference between the a lot of people want to catch my eye. If right hon. and costs of direct procurement and PFI procurement. That hon. Members can confine their speeches to 10 minutes is exacerbated by the financial crisis, and makes things or under, they will all have a chance to speak. almost unaffordable. We must begin to look at alternatives. 3.30 pm I want to float an idea that I have been trying to put to Ministers—and will be doing in the near future. That Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate not only is the possibility that the green investment bank could the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire provide some necessary competition to the PFI market. (Jesse Norman), but everyone who has spoken today. As I said earlier, there is a serious lack of competition. We are having an absolutely first-class debate with some The Treasury Committee heard from PFI providers that very innovative thinking. 161WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 162WH

[Lorely Burt] attracted to the idea of a national asset trust fund and the possible extension of a Government bank, such as When the PFI was first introduced, I was deeply the green investment bank, to use the Government’s concerned about it in the west midlands, which is where natural low-borrowing ability to obtain cheaper funding. I am from. I felt that clever companies were running I have been very brief, Mrs Main. This gravy train has rings around the inexperienced procurers of a lot of our got to dry up. There is an issue with many, although not public services. I was worried about it then and I am still all, PFI companies. That point has been made. Some worried about it, because everything I have feared has contracts have been well conducted, professionally done come to fruition. Today, £67 billion-worth of PFI contracts and are good value for money. However, a lot of PFI have been signed, and the total payment has been companies have taken advantage and have bled our £210 billion, which says it all. In the NHS, the BBC public services dry. It is time to release the tourniquet found that £11.3 billion of investment in hospitals will before the patient who feeds it bleeds to death. have a total lifetime cost of £65 billion. The average NHS PFI profit is a return of 66%. If we compare that with the 2.8% figure for major construction companies, 3.37 pm there is a shocking contrast. A number of speakers have talked about PFI being Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): Thank you, the only game in town, the lack of access to capital Mrs Main, for allowing me to speak in an extremely finance and the need for off-balance-sheet funding. The important debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the problems have been very apparent. There are long, Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse inflexible arrangements that are often unresponsive to Norman) and others on the Backbench Business Committee change. Again, I shall give a health-related example. on securing this vital debate. It is a crucial issue that is Hospitals currently do not have the money to keep of great interest to my constituents, and I shall focus on pumping into these inflexible contracts. Hospitals change that constituency interest. their functions and have a need for physical alterations, Hon. Members have given a very technical analysis of but PFI contracts are not responsive enough to help. Of PFI, its failings and what we should possibly do about course, there are also policy changes. We now have a such arrangements. However, in very practical and tangible situation whereby we are trying to conduct as much terms, I want to speak for my constituents and explain care as possible within the community. It is very interesting why this rebate for the PFI would be extremely beneficial to speculate about what that will mean for the PFI. At to them. If I may put that into context, I will be talking the moment, we are facing the spectre of closing beds about the huge PFI scheme at the University Hospitals and sacking staff to balance the books and satisfy the Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust. contracts that were drawn up with inexperience a long, Let me give hon. Members the background. A large long time ago. tertiary hospital on the edge of Coventry was built The distribution of risk concerns me greatly. Who under the previous Government’s PFI regime. The hospital really takes the risk if something goes badly wrong? replaced the then Walsgrave hospital, where I was born Given the statistics that I have quoted, it must be in the early 1970s. The new incarnation of the Walsgrave, difficult to fail with such a level of profit built in. There as we know it locally, is undoubtedly a great hospital. is also the issue of the trading of contracts. Once a When I say that, I do not just mean great as in good, company has acquired a contract, it goes out into the although it is an extremely good hospital, but great in market and, as the hon. Member for Hereford and terms of size, because it has 1,250 beds and 27 operating South Herefordshire has said, there is sub-contracting theatres. The hospital is a large fish in a small pond in and different people take their profit and a cut. The terms of the Coventry and Warwickshire health economy. European services strategy unit found that the Treasury’s Since the hospital started to operate in 2001, the cost poor monitoring of the trading of PFI debt was giving of the PFI contract has been substantial, with more companies a licence to print money. It is a very concerning than 14% of the University Hospitals Coventry and and problematic picture. Warwickshire NHS Trust budget now consumed by the What are the Government doing about the issue? PFI contract and the obligations under it. The main Since we have been in government, we have forced problem with the PFI contract is that the costs are Departments to bear the revenue cost of PFI contracts—I pretty much fixed. Regardless of patient numbers, under bet that has made one or two people think again about the contract the trust must still pay over a long period further investment. We are also reopening three major for the buildings, repairs, cleaning and provision of contracts as part of a renegotiation strategy and—I support services. Should demand fall or patients decide hope that this will be a warning to many PFI holders—as to go to another hospital in the Coventry and Warwickshire mentioned, we are doing a deep-dive investigation into health economy, inevitably those fixed costs remain and Queen’s hospital, Romford. That will be the first forensic must be borne by the hospital. look at the operation of a PFI in 15 years. We have talked about solutions. The hon. Member Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): My neighbour and for Hereford and South Herefordshire has campaigned colleague is making a strong case about the impact of brilliantly on the idea of trying to obtain a rebate, and a the UHCW in the health economy of Warwickshire, voluntary code was agreed in 2002 under the previous but my interest is my local hospital of St Cross in Government. After several PFI providers made windfalls Rugby, which is part of the same trust. One of our big in refinancing deals, it was negotiated that 30% of gains concerns is that, with such a large proportion of the from existing projects should be returned to the taxpayer. health economy going into the PFI hospital, in times of I understand that today that figure is 50%. We need a budget pressure such as now, the bias will always be proper rebate and a proper code of conduct. I am also towards the PFI contract, which must be fulfilled and 163WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 164WH maintained, but that might be to the detriment of other be right when ensuring that organisations are a suitable hospitals locally and, in particular, those in the same size, for example, to fit into the local health economy. trust. With hindsight, we might question whether the PFI hospital at Coventry was too large for the wider Coventry Mr Jones: My hon. Friend, whose constituency and Warwickshire health economy. neighbours mine, has hit the nail on the head. The general point is that we must get the issue right in In our situation, regardless of demand or whether the future. I accept the comments of the hon. Member for Coventry and Warwickshire PFI hospital wants to close Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), but I am confident that a ward or to stop the activity associated with closing a Ministers are ensuring that any contract negotiations ward, such as the cleaning or maintenance, the fixed will be made properly, so that we do not over-commit costs must still be met. That is most detrimental, and it the Government, as was done previously. is a drain on the Warwickshire health economy. Another concern relates to the primary care trust and Jesse Norman: Does my hon. Friend share my view the strategic health authority. That context is changing, that there is a world of difference between Building but some of the people involved in those organisations Schools for the Future, a form of PFI that the Government were instrumental in the creation of the PFI hospital could and did cancel, or specific projects which were and, whatever happens, I suspect that they would not inherited but which they were uncomfortable with, such want to see the hospital—this landmark development in as Hartlepool hospital, which they have also stopped, at Coventry—fail. The concern is because, ever since the least for the time being, and the vast preponderance of hospital was built—before the mortar between the bricks the 61 projects inherited from the previous Government? or the paint was dry—the local PCT, NHS Warwickshire, The toxic inheritance from the previous Government has been trying to reconfigure services. We immediately was an enormous sausage machine, with huge embedded had an acute services review, which threatened services costs, which we have had to deal with despite a difficult at my local district general hospital, the George Eliot, economic situation. There is something grossly wrong and to a greater extent at Rugby’s St Cross, as my hon. in comparing £200 billion of spending under the previous Friend the Member for Rugby has said. NHS Warwickshire Government with the need to get the situation under paired St Cross up with the Coventry and Warwickshire control. Does he share my view? trust which, really, subsumed it. Services were drained away from Rugby to the new PFI hospital in Coventry, Mr Jones: I share my hon. Friend’s view, which he has regardless of whether people in Rugby wanted the expressed powerfully. We must also consider a point choice of going to St Cross. If we do not get a grip on made by my hon. Friend the Member for South the situation soon, I fear that the same might happen in Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) that, thanks to my constituency at the George Eliot. the Labour party, the country is now so indebted that, That brings me to the crux of the argument made by to put in any new infrastructure, we have to look my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South seriously at schemes such as the PFI, because without Herefordshire. I echo his concern about such huge them the country simply does not have the money to beasts of projects, which are so expensive and we hear finance any projects. stories about, such as the £300 for changing a light bulb. They are real, tangible problems, and our constituents Stella Creasy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? cannot understand why the previous Government signed the taxpayer up to such ridiculous commitments. Although Mr Jones: I will not give way, because I am mindful the previous Government took on those contracts, I that other Members wish to speak. appreciate that the new Government cannot simply tear In conclusion, my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford them up. Some difficulties might arise from how the and South Herefordshire has done an excellent job in contract was framed, in particular on the capital bringing the PFI to the fore. I sincerely hope that the commitments. The companies that originally constructed Government and the Minister will look at the issue and financed the hospitals have sold the debt on, and it closely and carefully to see whether we can get some might have been sold on again, so we would now find it form of rebate from the providers of PFI projects—in difficult to pin down those people and to get some form particular, over the terms of the service contracts—not of rebate. only because of the financial situation but to ensure that the quality of services such as cleaning and maintenance Stella Creasy: I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman are preserved, but at a lower cost. is saying. We have all talked about the difficulty of I hope that the Minister shows the same vigour and renegotiating the existing contracts, but 61 PFI projects enthusiasm as my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford are currently in train for which contracts have not yet and South Herefordshire. If she takes the matter forward, been signed. Is the logic of what he and perhaps other which I am confident that she will, hopefully we will see Government Back-Bench MPs are saying that they a great day for the British taxpayer and for people in want the Government to stop the negotiations and to constituencies such as mine, who are suffering the cost look at another format? I do not understand. If there of the frivolity of the previous Government, which is are so many concerns about PFI as a model—it never now affecting the Warwickshire health economy. seems to work and is always too expensive—is the sum total that it should not happen at all? 3.48 pm Mr Jones: I am not necessarily saying that PFI should Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con): I congratulate not happen at all, but that contracts should be negotiated my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South in the correct fashion to minimise the taxpayer’s exposure Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing this debate. to situations such as those we have seen. Contracts must Herford and Worcester have a long history of fruitful 165WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 166WH

[Mr Robin Walker] in many ways, where a lot of fantastic work is done, lived up to the concerns of my right hon. Friend. The reply to co-operation, and I hope that the debate will show that my recent parliamentary question to the Department of we can work together to deliver better value for our Health in February on the costs of the PFI confirmed constituents and our country. that over the life of its 30-year contract the Worcestershire As we have heard, PFI has become a dirty word—almost Royal hospital will cost approximately 10 times the a term of abuse—but it was not always so. Both capital cost of the project—£852 million over 30 years, Conservative and Labour Governments saw the benefits compared with its £82 million capital cost. of working with private finance and, from the 1990s Hon. Members may point out that it is not reasonable onwards, the opportunity to deliver better public service to compare directly the capital figure of a project with by using it. Rightly, many hon. Members have challenged the total cost of the PFI contract, because account the essence of the scheme, and I accept that it should be must be taken of the cost of capital, the service elements, reviewed and that we should look at competition, as my and the fact that a PFI project is maintained as new hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) throughout its lifetime. However, it is reasonable to has suggested. However, Members should remember benchmark such figures against other, and especially that some PFIs allowed valuable new public buildings more recent, hospital PFIs. In recent hospital PFIs, the to be delivered, which would not otherwise have been lifetime costs have been more like four times the capital possible. That was often used to justify the scheme, even cost, which shows the vast gulf in value between early after some of the initial value-for-money problems became hospital deals, such as that at Worcestershire Royal clear. That was certainly the case with the Worcestershire hospital, and more recent PFIs. Royal hospital in my constituency, and I want to focus Hon. Members do not have to accept my word for the on matters close to home, in the same way that my hon. poor value of that PFI. In 2006, Patricia Hewitt, who Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) did. Most was then the right hon. Member for Leicester, West and of my comments today will be about that particular Secretary of State for Health in the Labour Government, PFI. told the Select Committee on Health that the financing Over time, it has become clear that value for money of the Worcestershire Royal had been “a disaster”, and was not sufficiently protected, particularly in early PFIs, that it had been much more expensive than other PFIs. such as our hospital in Worcester. When the Labour We have a problem not with cost alone but with Government came to power in 1997, they were determined capacity, and they are similar to those raised by my hon. to embark on a massive programme of public building, Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones). The but with a commitment to remain within the spending hospital in Worcester has to serve as both the acute plans of the previous Conservative Chancellor. The PFI hospital for the county and the community hospital for provided a valuable get-out from that Catch-22 situation, Worcester. It is now, and has been for some time operating because it allowed the Labour Government to borrow at close to full capacity, and as more services have been against the future—build today and pay tomorrow. centred there, it has become a headache for the management That was not in itself a problem, as long as future costs of our acute trust. With the opportunity to have more were taken into account and rigorously controlled. Sadly, cancer services centred on the Royal, which my constituents the political imperative overrode financial good sense, warmly welcome and support, comes the challenge of and projects were signed off without the rigorous checks deciding which services must go elsewhere in the county that should have been made. as a result of the capacity limits. In the case of Worcestershire Royal hospital, I can As my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and state categorically that the decision to approve the South Herefordshire has pointed out so eloquently in structure of the PFI was political, that it was taken by a this debate and others, one of the knock-on effects of Labour Government and that it would not have been poorly negotiated PFIs has been to raise the price of approved by a Conservative Government. The reason hospital parking, which is certainly true in Worcester. why I know that is peculiar. I happened to be working In fact, in the early life of the PFI, land that had as a volunteer driver for my right hon. Friend the originally been set aside for parking had to be sold to Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who was then help the trust to meet the costs of paying for it. That has Secretary of State for Health, during the 1997 general added to the difficulties of parking. The costs are of election campaign. We were both from Worcestershire understandable concern to patients and visitors, and originally, and we were both well aware of the clamour there is a knock-on effect of people parking in nearby in the city for a new hospital, so the topic came up residential estates to avoid those costs. naturally during our travels around the country. I asked my right hon. Friend why he would not sign off the Jesse Norman: My hon. Friend’s powerful speech hospital that everyone wanted. He explained that, although suggests that his hospital, the total cost of which is 10 it was absolutely right that the city should have a new times its capital cost versus an average of four times, hospital, the contract that had been put forward for it leaves six times £80 million, or just under £500 million was too expensive and inflexible, and did not build in of excess cost, in that contract. Is that an appropriate the extra capacity that the hospital would need over the calculation? next 30 years. He said that when the Conservatives were re-elected he would renegotiate that contract and ensure Mr Walker: That is an appropriate point to raise, and that we had a hospital to be proud of. Alas, that was not a strong argument for the sort of rebate that my hon. to be. Friend has been advocating. With the advent of a new Government impatient to It is regrettable for all those who are affected by high get spending, the contract was signed off unchanged charges for parking or by cars cluttering their streets as and the Worcestershire Royal hospital, a fine building a result of that, that the previous Government did not 167WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 168WH take more time to negotiate, to think more about the The main shareholders in Catalyst when it was set up long-term consequences of their hurried decisions, and were Bovis Lend Lease and the British Linen bank. The to get a better deal for taxpayers before signing off that latter, via HBOS and the ill-conceived merger that the PFI. previous Government forced through, has become part However, we are here not simply to point the finger of of the Lloyds banking group, in which UK taxpayers blame but to deliver solutions. I believe that there are now have a significant stake. Surely such banks, publicly solutions to these problems, which is why I have passionately bailed out as they have been, should be doing everything supported my hon. Friend’s campaign for a significant in their power to ensure that they are giving good value PFI rebate. We need not let past mistakes for ever damn to the public and the NHS? That should be the case the idea of the PFI, but we should learn from them, and whether or not they hope to win more business from the ensure that we deliver better value for money, better Government, but I have recently discovered that that planning, and a stronger position for taxpayers in future. same consortium has hopes of winning the contract to I support my hon. Friend’s contention that a 0.5% deliver a new radiotherapy unit for the Worcestershire rebate nationally would deliver enormous benefits for Royal hospital. taxpayers and, in the case of the Worcestershire Royal That radiotherapy unit will be a vital addition to the hospital, it would deliver millions of pounds that are suite of services that Worcester is able to offer to cancer desperately needed in our local health economy. I also patients, and I have been campaigning for that for many support the urgent measures that our Government are years. I welcomed the decision of our trust first to already taking to bring PFI companies to the table, and approve it and then to locate it in Worcester at the heart to ensure that better value is delivered for taxpayers. I of our county. I have been asked whether I am worried am delighted for that reason that the Worcestershire that Catalyst is in the running to deliver it. I do not see Royal hospital is one of those being reviewed by McKinsey, it as a matter for concern so much as a golden opportunity. and I urge it to examine closely the details of the I hope that Catalyst can show in its bid for the radiotherapy current agreements, and to search for areas where value unit that it is determined to offer taxpayers value for can be unlocked. In Worcestershire, as elsewhere, many money, and to share the benefits of the original PFI of us believe that the long-term costs of the PFI are contract for the Worcestershire Royal hospital. It must placing serious strain on the finances of our acute trust. have many advantages in terms of cost and synergies Consequentially, they are a significant barrier to the with its existing contracts, so I am sure that it will be as vital short-term goal of achieving foundation trust status, determined as I am that those advantages are shared fairly not to mention the essential long-term aim of delivering with taxpayers. I will be only too happy to support my acute the best possible care for everyone in Worcestershire, trust in its negotiations with Catalyst to make sure the free at the point of need. bid offers the excellent value for money that it should. There is good news on that front, which shows that In particular, I am hopeful that the benefits of this the light that my hon. Friend has shone on the PFI, and project will be not only financial but will provide the the determination of this coalition Government to deliver opportunity to address the long-term parking problems value for money, are already bearing fruit. I understand at the hospital. I urge it to consider the need for a that the Worcestershire Acute NHS Trust is already multi-storey car park at the Worcestershire Royal, and finding significant savings that can be delivered from the golden opportunity to deliver that alongside the the soft services parts of their contract. As part of the provision of a new radiotherapy unit. Indeed, more trust’s strategy to deliver greater efficiency from its PFI broadly, the Government should recognise that, as we provider, commercial discussions are currently under strive to deliver value for money in all our public way with ISS to benchmark the provision of soft services services, we must take a more aggressive approach in every five years. ISS provides services such as cleaning, our purchasing and commissioning, negotiating hard to catering, portering, security and laundry to the ensure that taxpayers receive good value. I was happy to Worcestershire Royal hospital site, and it has indicated hear of the hundreds of millions already saved by the that it is prepared to work with the trust to deliver a Cabinet Office through negotiation with major suppliers, level of savings over the next five years in line with and I hope that the Minister can assure us that that national efficiency assumptions of 4% a year. That approach will in future be taken to the PFI. would be delivered while offering a guarantee that there I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford will be no impact on quality. I understand that the and South Herefordshire again on his campaign, and trust’s board is due to consider a formal offer within the exhort the Minister to take on board the many excellent next month, and I welcome that. points that have been made in this debate. Not only do The trust is also due to commence negotiations with we have a responsibility not to repeat the mistakes of Siemens on the managed medical equipment deal, which the past but we have an opportunity to put things right is due to have a benchmarking review in 2012, in line for the future. with its 10-year anniversary. Those negotiations are entirely welcome, and show that some private companies 3.59 pm are already engaged in seeing how better value for money can be achieved for taxpayers. However, I am Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I will worried that, as yet, there has been no indication of endeavour to make my contribution brief. This has been similar negotiations with the main PFI contractor, Catalyst, a very valuable and worthwhile debate on a number of a special-purpose vehicle. I take this opportunity to issues. We need to consider the PFI as quite a complex urge it to come to the table and, recognising the exceptionally challenge. Although my hon. Friend the Minister is good deal that it has had at the Worcestershire Royal here to help us with some of the financial issues, it is a hospital, to begin talking about how some of the value challenge not just for her but for her Cabinet colleagues, from that deal could be rebated to taxpayers and the because it is not just the issues of the finances that need local NHS. to be reviewed. There are also issues of complexity that 169WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 170WH

[Anne Marie Morris] examples of multiple procurement failures. PFI is being used as a proxy for that. Those procurement failures we need to deal with in trying to find a way forward. can happen with any technique or contract. Those issues are not just about the way in which the contracts are currently structured. There is also an issue Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend makes a valid about cultural change, because much of what has happened point, which is why the issue is far more complicated has changed the way in which decisions are made and than a rebate. outcomes are delivered for patients in hospitals and The risk is overestimated. Projects are not monitored, children in schools. That is why, although I support the partly because there is no transparency. As has been argument for a rebate, it is only part of the solution. It said, the size of the debt has been hidden because it is deals with the existing, financial challenge, but it does off balance sheet. If we looked at the real national debt not deal with other issues. It is right that we should be figure, then rather than £910 billion, we would probably looking for a different way to do things, but it is a very be looking at £1.12 trillion. complicated challenge. I can perhaps best illustrate the distortion in the way The PFI was always well intentioned as a concept. It in which public services are used by explaining what is was to deliver quality and it was to deliver projects on happening in my constituency. There is a wonderful time and on budget. In many ways, it achieved that. We new build hospital in Newton Abbot. It was the winner have 700 schools, hospitals, prisons and other infrastructure of the 2007 HealthInvestor PFI deal of the year award. projects that would not exist or would not be in the But what has happened? In that hospital, we are finding pipeline but for this initiative. We have £67 billion-worth considerable underuse of facilities. Beds and consulting of expenditure signed off. rooms are not being used as they might be. Why? The The problems fall into at least four categories. First, reason, as I understand it from individuals who have the risk was overestimated, in part because of the public come to me to raise this concern, is that it is just too sector’s inability to deal with a very complex negotiation, expensive to use those facilities rather than the cheaper as has been said. The consequence was that the taxpayer facilities in neighbouring hospitals. I am pleased to say was lumbered with a very large part of the bill. As has that the primary care trust has taken the matter up and been said, the amount of £210 billion is outstanding. By is considering how better use of the facilities at Newton contrast, the investor is doing extraordinarily well. A Abbot hospital can be made. However, it is an example number of figures have been cited, and I will add to that of how behaviour can be changed. list. An EU think-tank tells me that 154 schemes are The challenge, therefore, is not only to get the cost delivering a 50% return. That is huge. Clearly, therefore, down. Reference has been made to what the Government one matter that we must consider is how we simplify not are already doing. I am pleased that we have a PFI hit only future contracts, but the existing ones. I believe squad, which has already taken £4 billion out of the that we must consider renegotiating not just a chunk of project list. I am minded to look very favourably on the money, but some of the terms. concept of a rebate, but as I said, a rebate will not be enough. There are two aspects to trying to sort out the Mark Pawsey: Does my hon. Friend agree that a financial mess. One is the issue of maintenance. Clearly, justification for a rebate arises from the effect of the there are ways of reducing maintenance costs under the spending review on those Departments whose budgets contracts, and whatever saving comes out of any have been reduced? If the PFI element remains fixed renegotiation needs to be shared with the taxpayer and within the budget, by definition the non-PFI element the local community. The second aspect is the payback has to reduce by a greater proportion, so budgets that rates. We have heard many examples of the payback may have been reduced by 2% could end up being rates in this context being well above the payback rates reduced by 4%. It is entirely appropriate that those who for similar risks in the market. Those two issues need to are making the sums of money that we have heard be considered. about should bear their share of the burden of getting To return to where I started, one issue that we need to our country’s finances into order. consider is the impact on what happens in other parts of Government. We need to consider our health care reforms, Anne Marie Morris: I agree. My argument is that that because many of the PFI contracts are currently held by is part of the problem, rather than the totality of the the primary care trusts. Those PCTs will cease to exist problem. My second request is that we find a way of in the not-too-distant future. As and when we see their delivering transparency and better management of the demise, what will happen to those contracts? Is that an contracts. One hospital was charged £333 to change a opportunity or a threat? That is a serious issue, which light bulb. I dare say that that changes the hospital’s my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health decision about whether it will change many light bulbs. will need to consider in conjunction with the Treasury. One school was charged £300 just to install an electrical We have heard about the examples of schools and the socket. How many times will the school install a socket challenges for some of negotiating academy status because on that basis? One Army official was charged £103 for a of existing PFI contracts. To conclude, this is a complex 1-inch Land Rover screw that actually cost just over £2. issue. It is not something that the Treasury can deal That is not the right way of doing things. with alone. Some joined-up thinking needs to be applied to it across a number of Departments. David Mowat: The three examples that my hon. Friend has cited are powerful, but they represent procurement failures by the public sector procurement people involved 4.7 pm and structural failures in the nature of the contract, Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): It is a great pleasure because the contract did not have to specify, for example, to be operating under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. It exactly how light bulbs would be maintained. We have is a great thing that my hon. Friend the Member for 171WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 172WH

Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) has PFI schemes have recently become far too complicated. done in securing this very important debate, because he As was pointed out earlier, in many of the original has raised a number of issues that have been challenged schemes things were simply designed, built and then or discussed and, often, supported in useful ways. maintained. More recently, however, we have been throwing The idea of securing a rebate is a good one. I know in services and all sorts of extras. As a result, the that the Treasury, in the form of Lord Sassoon, the process has become complicated; indeed, many of us Commercial Secretary to the Treasury, is busily doing have used that word today. That is largely because we just that—he is attempting to negotiate a rebate. I am have confused the original concept of the PFI by adding not sure how well the negotiation is going, but it is on services and so on. There is nothing wrong with that, clearly under way. So the concept of making savings, but it brings me to the fact that we must get the with of course the proviso that standards and services procurement systems right. To do that, we must specify are not threatened, is well established. My hon. Friend much more clearly what is wanted. Local authorities the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire is have to learn to do that, as must the health service; it is a absolutely right to push this issue further up the agenda. question of commissioning. My hon. Friend, who represents I salute that. a beautiful Cornish seat—it is in Cornwall, is it not? There is a question about off-balance sheet expenditure. Anne Marie Morris: It is in Devon. It is right that that issue should be carefully considered. In the context of the green investment bank, we have already done that. The funding for that is now measured Neil Carmichael: Devon: it gets better! My hon. to about £3 billion. When our deficit is going down, Friend made that point rather well. It certainly needs to that bank will be able to raise more capital. There is the be considered, as specifying and procurement are critical. same sort of issue, although obviously better controlled We also need to understand value for money. Most by the present Government than the previous one, in PFI schemes under the previous Government did not connection with the PFI. seem to do so. The next big task is to define value for money. That will be helped if we get the data right and I want you to cast your mind back to the time before if we understand the systems in each project. Many PFIs got started in this country. Can you remember people talk about the difficulties of PFI schemes in those schools that were designed poorly, built badly and hospitals. I am not surprised, given that many hospitals maintained with no attention to longevity? I have buildings cannot even tell you the cost of an operation. We need in my constituency that could have been much better more data. If we have much more information about designed and of much better quality. Indeed, a building what is happening, it will inform the debate about value that was literally knocked up in 1956—frankly, it was a for money. disgrace—was recently knocked down. It was put up by a local authority as a technical college, and I could see Another big problem is the lack of accountability in when I first arrived in Stroud that it should have been the decision-making process. I said that it is important knocked down years before. We must remember that to specify and procure properly, but if we do not hold PFI schemes have improved the quality of buildings, those who do the specifying or procuring properly to and in many cases that has improved the quality of account we will have only ourselves to blame. We need services. systems to ensure that specifications are clear and all- inclusive, and produce the right procurement. We then need to ensure the right attitude to procurement, a Mr Bacon: If my hon. Friend were to visit St Thomas point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington Aquinas grammar school and Wellington college in South (David Mowat). Belfast, he might disagree. Wellington college was built under the PFI, and halfway through negotiations on Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I hope that my hon. what should have been a quality building the contractors Friend will forgive me telling a small anecdote. I remember suddenly said, “Sorry, these are off. Here is your L-shaped being told a story by one of the famous bomber command school.” St Thomas Aquinas school was procured air officers. When talking about procurement, he said, conventionally. The schools were the same size, the “The thing to do is not to make a small mistake, same capital was available for both, and they had the because if you do they can pursue you for it. The thing same number of pupils and were of the same socio- to do is to make an enormous mistake.” Is that not part economic background, but St Thomas Aquinas school of the problem? Enormous mistakes are being made, ended up a much better quality school. I have spent a and we cannot possibly hold individual officials or lot of time in both schools and have seen the difference politicians to account for such giant sums. for myself. Neil Carmichael: I thank my hon. Friend for that. I Neil Carmichael: I thank my hon. Friend for making do not like any mistakes; I do not like small ones, but I a good point; I shall answer it later in some detail. especially dislike big ones. We need a system that allows I turn next to the history of the PFI. It goes back fewer of both, but particularly large ones. much further than 1992. The United States has been using PFI schemes for decades because it wanted private David Mowat: It is about accountability and procurement. money to be used to provide public utilities, roads and Much of what has been said this afternoon is about so on. The PFI has a history in the US, in many parts of procurement failures rather than the failure of the PFI Europe and in most regions of the world. We have technique. I do not agree that people cannot be held to plenty of experience of it. There is much activity in that account for big procurement errors. Many organisations sector that we can draw upon in order to improve the succeed in holding others to account, but the Government way in which it works. That is the key point. do not. I would be interested to know whether people in 173WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 174WH

[David Mowat] made. If you keep changing the specifications, you will increase the complexity, making it harder for those who any of the procuring organisations involved in these are procuring to understand, and the bidding process awful contracts have been held to account—how many just goes awry.The real problem is that various organisations jobs have been lost and how many promotions have have not specified clearly enough and have not stuck to been missed—but my guess is not many on either count. the specifications as first announced. Therefore, there have been far too many changes, sometimes as late as Neil Carmichael: I think that you are absolutely right just before contract signing. That is what I am getting if you agree with me that we need more accountability at. It is totally unacceptable. It wastes huge amounts of in the procurement and specification systems. money—millions of pounds—and it puts off other bidders because, of course, they think to themselves, Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Order. I do not disagree “Where are we in this? It’s a movable feast.” That is not with the hon. Gentleman. He is making an interesting what we want. We need to bolt it down, and that is why speech, but I keep hearing “you.” I do not want to I emphasised the importance of specification. It is a disrupt the flow, but I am aware that it happens sometimes. really important point, and my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) has just proved it. If you Neil Carmichael: Thank you for being so understanding, keep changing the specification, you will always end up Mrs Main. This is such a complex subject that you have having a problem with a contract of any description. to marshal your thoughts clearly. That is where I stand on that issue. Finally, I want to mention the ridiculous business Neil Carmichael: The discussion of procurement leads about light bulbs, car parking at hospitals and so on—the me to the next big issue—the competitiveness of the sort of things that we must get away from. That is really tendering process. One of the difficulties is that there important. It is what the Treasury and indeed any are not often enough bidders. That is not surprising, organisation involved in such a situation should be because the bidding costs are sometimes far too high. moving away from. It is not acceptable; it causes a huge We therefore need to think about the competitive process number of problems. It is nonsense to argue that an and the bidding issue together. I believe that the answer income stream for a hospital will be the car park for the is to make the contractual arrangements and the contracts patients who turn up to it. That needs to be stated. We simpler and more adaptable. You cannot alter a system need to get a grip on what the hospital is actually for as complicated as this by looking at one part of it and and apply the logic of the contract to that. That is the making some changes, because that will have consequences answer to the second point made by my hon. Friend the further down the line, but I think that bidding costs are Member for South Norfolk. indeed too high, largely because contracts are too rigid and too few organisations are looking into that as a In summary, PFI has a role to play, but we must be mechanism. imaginative about making sure that it works better. If we are going to be spending more than £200 billion on One or two Members have mentioned income streams. our infrastructure alone in the next decade or so, we will That is a really good point. Most schemes with strong have to appeal more effectively to the private sector to income streams have worked rather well. Those with no dip into its pocket. Properly modified, PFI can do that. proper measure of income or service have not worked That does not mean that we should not be looking at so well. We need to divide the concept of the private rebates, and it does not mean that we should not be finance initiative into those schemes with strong and concerned about what is on or off the balance sheet and reliable income streams and those mainly to do with so on. It does mean that we must apply value for money service and operation. The difficulty is that we apply the on the scheme and ensure that it works for those who strict definition of the private finance initiative to virtually need it. everything, when we have a much more flexible phrase— public-private partnership. That is what we should be thinking about, so that we do not get ourselves tied up Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): Before Dr Thérèse in knots. Coffey makes her very eloquent speech, I am sure she will bear in mind that I have had very little to do with Mr Bacon: I have tried to resist intervening on my PFI schemes, and I would appreciate it if she were hon. Friend to ask him whether he realises that he is mindful of that. talking unutterable rubbish. First, if you have more specifying, you are obviously going to increase the costs hugely.As for public-private partnerships, I would encourage 4.24 pm him to look at the London Underground PPP, where the finance costs were £500 million higher because of Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con): Thank the complexity of the scheme, and because the Chancellor you, Mrs Main. I appreciate your candour in admitting of the day detested Ken Livingstone, the professional that you have had very little to do with PFI. fees added another £500 million. You—one, Mrs Main— I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford must be careful to distinguish between the different and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for securing facets. My hon. Friend said that clinical operations cost the debate. I commend his initiative and his ongoing more in some hospitals than others. Of course he is right, campaign. I am not sure whether he has been nominated, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the PFI. but he is certainly my Back Bencher of the year for the work that he has done on PFI. It is a great scandal, Neil Carmichael: Thank you very much. [Laughter.] Mrs Main, that this debate is being held in Westminster You know, it is always great when someone makes a Hall. It is always good to debate PFI, but I feel that point in opposition that proves the point that is being something of such importance—an emerging scandal 175WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 176WH that people are only just waking up to—should have cost of a brand-new building, which, frankly, is going to been debated in the Chamber, with the full prominence be used by prisoners. I am sure many people in Suffolk that would be given there. will be disappointed to hear that we will probably be I was also concerned to hear earlier that evaluation of losing front-line police officers to pay for what I see as a PFI projects is not being undertaken by the Treasury. rather gold-plated building. Will the Minister tell us whether that can be reversed? I genuinely hope that other savings will be found. I Before I talk about some of the challenges of PFI, I hope that we will improve our detection rates so want to assure people that I am not fundamentally extraordinarily that we will make the savings. I hope opposed to PFI in principle; my concern is the legacy. that people will not feel that they have got the bobby in We have heard many stories about that. The legacy has the car driving people hundreds of miles back and forth been a disaster and has tarnished the name of PFI, between the detention centres, homes and courts instead which could have been a force for good. It is a classic of having the bobby on the beat. I hope that we will not case of off-balance sheet financing. Not only will our be regretting this in the next few years. generation pay for it, but future generations will continue to pay for that, as well as all the other debt accumulated Other projects have caught my eye. Apparently, the by the previous, profligate Government. M1-A1 link road is a shadow toll road. As part of the PFI contract, the Government pay a fee—a toll—to On early memories and anecdotes that hon. Members the company. The numbers of journeys are more than were relating, I will not go on about light bulbs costing double what was originally estimated, so the Government God knows what. However, I remember the first meeting are happily paying through the nose for that. To be fair, of the all-party group on rural services when we heard as has already been suggested, I do not believe that we from the deputy chief fire officer of a particular authority. should condemn the private sector for how it has made His very last comment was, “For God’s sake, never significant amounts of money. Much of the fault lies allow me to sign another PFI contract again, because I with us as clients. People should look themselves in the didn’t have a clue what I was doing. In hindsight, I mirror when they recognise the profits that they make recognise that I made a huge problem for my fire from PFI. I have a wealthy constituent who stopped authority. Because of that, I shouldn’t be here.” But he speaking to his brother because he was so ashamed of then went on to use the usual defence: “I didn’t know how much money he was knowingly making out of what I was doing. My accountant said it was fine, so I some of the contracts. He recognised that he did not just signed the contract.” He was embarrassed, and it have a sophisticated client. was good of him to say that, but that story is not unique. I am sure other hon. Members have heard such Just a few weeks ago, the Government released their stories. construction strategy in which they recognised that 80% Indeed, we all received a briefing from the NHS of the challenges have been within internal processes. Confederation: a wringing-their-hands exercise about Change orders, which were mentioned earlier, classically “It was early in the ’90s; we didn’t know what we were add so much to the cost of a particular project, as does doing; we’ve learned the practices now.”I wonder whether the lack of sophisticated negotiating. The Government they have. I sent a message back to the confederation to are trying to change that, which is to be welcomed. The ask what advice it gave to its member hospitals and last piece will be for the construction team, along with trusts. It said, “It wasn’t our role to do so. It was the role financing, to come together and ensure that we have a of the Treasury and the Department of Health.” So I simpler, focused contract that is flexible and appropriate feel that a lot of buck-passing is going on. I know that for future needs. that is in the past, but we are living with the costs today As for the way ahead, I wish my hon. Friend the and will do so in future. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire would I logged on to the Partnerships UK database to see name and shame those institutions that have thus far what PFI projects were awarded to Suffolk. There were not consented to voluntary repayments. I would also only four listed, which surprised me, because I know of like to hear the results of Lord Sassoon’s review on at least two others. The most recent PFI contract is a the renegotiation of contracts, which was initiated in 30-year contract to be shared with Norfolk, and it is for February. six new police investigation centres, as they are called. I am delighted to hear that PFI is no longer the Basically, they will be the new police cells. This particular default place in which to look for capital; there are contract dwarfs all the others: the East Anglia courts; other sources available. Unlike under the previous the Wattisham married quarters; the hospital trust’s Administration, it is not the only game in town. I am Garrett Anderson treatment and critical care centre in glad to see that we have a more balanced potential Ipswich; and indeed the fire and rescue service serviced source of capital funding for the future. I shall conclude, accommodation PFI project. because I recognise that others wish to speak. PFI will We are spending £61.3 million on six centres that will be one of the greatest scandals, so I congratulate my be the new places where people are detained. I challenged hon. Friend on bringing it to the attention of the that before I was elected. I was told that we had to have House. Let us keep up the volume to ensure that this the new centres because of the recommendations of the scandal is not repeated. National Policing Improvement Agency. The cost over 30 years for the contract, including the servicing, is £294 million. The budget goes from about £6.7 million Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): We have four hon. spread across the two authorities to more than £11 million. Members still hoping to catch my eye and there are My hon. Friend the Member for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) 30 minutes left before the wind-ups. I will now call alluded to that. In the days of decreasing budgets, when Mr Mark Garnier, who I hope will be mindful of his we are trying to tighten our belts, we face the enormous colleagues. 177WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 178WH

4.31 pm was surprisingly evasive in his reply to my questions, implying that that profit may have included the annual Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): It is a great premium returns and therefore was not a fair judgment. pleasure to speak under one’s chairmanship, Mrs Main. But my interpretation is that PFI providers that have [Laughter.] I also add my name to the chorus of sold their investments have already made an annual congratulations for my near neighbour and hon. Friend return on the projects—that is perfectly reasonable, the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire given the way that the projects are structured—but that (Jesse Norman), who has not only secured this debate the sale profit is in addition to that annual return. but worked so hard on the thorny issue of the PFI. His work includes his PFI rebate campaign, which I have What does that mean in terms of the contracts that enthusiastically signed up to. He has also managed to have been negotiated? It seems that the valuation of secure a Treasury Committee investigation into the risk, which is a key part of a contract, has been future of PFI. It is good to see that four members of the miscalculated in favour of the provider and it is that Select Committee have come along this afternoon. premium, in favour of the provider, that gives the opportunity for the sizeable equity sale profit. Indeed, The PFI does not directly affect my constituency—there the fact that there is someone out there to buy the is only a magistrates court there under a PFI contract. equity stake with their own measure of risk and expectation However, it indirectly affects my constituents because of return means that there is still more to be made by they are served by the Worcestershire Royal hospital. the subsequent buyer, implying even further mispricing Famously, Kidderminster hospital was downscaled to of risk. help pay for it. When my constituents hear that we have overspent on those contracts to the tune of half a That is the point. PFI projects do two things: first, billion pounds, they will be rightly even more furious they provide a so-called off-balance sheet way of financing than they were when the Government wound down a vital piece of investment; and secondly, they devolve Kidderminster hospital. the risk element of any project to the private sector. But the private sector will evaluate that risk and charge for The PFI is something that we all love to hate. It has it, and the evidence put forward by Mr Whitfield suggests come to signify the inability of the public sector to write that the PFI provider is making a great deal of that proper contracts and it is a symbol of trying to hide opportunity. capital investments on the country’s balance sheet. However, is that a fair summary of what is a reasonably legitimate way of financing part of the supply side of the economy? David Mowat: I have been listening very closely this I have certainly argued in the past that the public sector afternoon to the points that have been made about the will always negotiate bad contracts for the simple reason super-profits, the 180% margins and all the rest of it. I that there is an asymmetry in negotiating skills. I am have also tried to hear the names of the companies that certainly not here to criticise the knowledge of public are making those profits and the only two that I have sector employees in terms of how to go about writing a heard are Balfour Beatty and Bovis. My understanding contract. However, when it comes to a contract between is that neither of those organisations has a particularly the public sector and the private sector, we have, on one high return on capital employed. So I am a little bit side of the table, a well-read and well-intentioned civil mystified as to where the money is going and I genuinely servant who is doing his best and possibly looking would like somebody to help me with that point. forward to his retirement, while on the other side we have a hardened businessman who is motivated by Mark Garnier: I thank my hon. Friend for that profit and return on equity and quite probably incentivised intervention—what a perfect opportunity for me to do by direct equity in his business and a bonus for concessions so. These are the profits of equity sales by the companies won. A civil servant will certainly be very well educated concerned: 41% for Carillion; 59.1% for John Laing; in negotiating, but the hardened PFI negotiator from 53.9% for Interserve; 78% for Lend Lease Corporation, the private sector will have the concept of return on so well done to that company; 42.9% for Costain Group; equity, risk evaluation and profitability etched into his 20% for Serco Group, which was perhaps not the best DNA. There is no doubt that there is plenty of money investment for someone’s money; 71% for Balfour Beatty; to be made out of PFI for the astute negotiator. and 59% for Kajima Partnership. Dexter Whitfield, director of the European Services Strategy Unit, in his submission to the recent Treasury David Mowat: What are those numbers? Committee investigation, highlighted the profitability of PFI equity sales—that is where a PFI contract is sold Mark Garnier: Those are the equity sale profits. So and the profit made is in addition to the profit that is those companies are PFI providers who have then sold gained on an ongoing basis. He pointed out that although their contracts, and those figures are the profits they there is little readily available information on PFI sales, have made. Just to be fair, the figure was 56.3% for Kier the ESSU database holds 63 transactions covering 154 PFI Group. Those are pretty sizeable returns. projects, and he has looked at how much they have made. Average equity profit has been 50.6% on the Jesse Norman: It is very important to distinguish two 63 transactions. What is interesting is how they fare by things. One is the internal rate of return, or IRR, of an sector. Health has been given a profit of 66%, housing investment, which is the annual amount by which it gets 80% and leisure 86%. However, the truly eye-watering upgraded; the second is the value that a provider gets winner by miles goes to the defence sector, which has when it sells a share. We do not know the answer to this been giving PFI providers a whopping 134% profit on question, but those values are perhaps what they are in their equity sales. The Treasury Committee inquiry was part because of the period of time that they have been lucky enough to have a representative from the PFI held. If someone held a share in the London stock industry, one of the directors of Balfour Beatty, and he market for 10 years, they would see a certain uplift in its 179WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 180WH value. I do not know what the number is, but it might be right price. That is why I am incredibly grateful to my 20%, 30% or 40%. It is that kind of thing. The contrast hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South is with the returns that were being made, for example, Herefordshire, for taking the initiative to question this with the Norfolk and Norwich university hospital, where important area so closely, and to work so hard for the the refinancing, which loaded up the hospital with £100 future of PFI. million of additional debt, realised an IRR—an annual upgrade in the return to the investors—of 60%. So what my hon. Friend is talking about might be, in fact, a 7% 4.41 pm or 8% return each year. We just do not know, and that Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): It is a pleasure to in itself is a great embarrassment for the previous serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main, and I will Government, because we do not have the numbers. try not to attribute too many of the flaws in PFI to you.

Mark Garnier: My hon. Friend makes an incredibly Mrs Anne Main (in the Chair): I would be grateful. important point. I suspect that what these numbers are telling us is that the annual returns are being treated Steve Baker: I, too, would like to congratulate my rather like the dividends on an equity investment in the hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South stock market and these capital returns—the sales of Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on securing the debate, equities—are the capital return that the company gets. and to pay tribute to his leadership, his courage and his So they are already getting their annual rate of return intellect. As I listened to the debate, I noticed a strange and this money is in addition to what they would expect thing: Conservatives verging on sounding like anti- to receive if they ran the contract to the end. But we capitalists. need to clarify that, because these are incredibly important points. Lorely Burt: Never! The Government are committed to the PFI and, as we have already heard, they have 61 new projects being Steve Baker: And indeed Liberals seem to have spoken procured as of earlier this year, with a value of £7 billion. as anti-liberals. I am perplexed by that. I would like to That is not necessarily a bad thing because money is develop one point: how PFI fits into the nature of our being invested into the supply side of the economy, and society. I am reminded of something that Churchill we need that investment to support our expectations of said, which I think speaks to the third way. He said: economic growth and to sort out the financial mess that “Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to the coalition Government have inherited. The PFI allows be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk.” that investment to happen without any immediate impact I will come back to how he finished the quote at the on measures of public sector capital expenditure or end. It strikes me that the third way seems to have borrowing. However, the efficiency case for the PFI turned private enterprise into a vampire squid to be rests on the model’s ability to allocate risk more effectively suckered on to the faces of people on normal and low than regular procurement. To date, there seems to be no incomes. empirical evidence to support any claims that the higher I am pleased that my hon. Friend wishes to respect price of PFI finance has offset any reduction in costs. contract. Given that the world contains imperfect self- The efficiency case looks even more fallacious in the interested people, and given that we have imperfect light of falling interest rates, as we heard earlier in the knowledge of the world, it is important that we are debate. The Government can borrow directly at around secure in the institutions that we create and in which we 3.3% and yet the IRR on a PFI contract is now 4% operate. Therefore, I am delighted that my hon. Friend higher than that. That is a significant risk premium to emphasised the need to respect contract and to seek be paid by the Government, especially when the PFI voluntary renegotiation. I was particularly impressed investor frequently offloads risks on to subcontractors. that my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal We have heard that before. Given that we have very low (Dr Coffey) hinted at the need for a moral basis on interest rates and can issue gilts on a 25-year basis, which to operate in capitalism and society. It is necessary should that not be one way to look at financing some of that people do not simply blame procurement processes— the supply side of the economy? much as they are an institutional factor—but look to Coming away from the financial side, I am not sure themselves to behave decently. that some of the users of PFI facilities are always that There are many questions that we could discuss: who happy. Wyre Forest was one of the areas that suffered provides, who pays, where risk lies. However, I would under the cancellation of the Building Schools for the just like to develop one point made by my hon. Friend Future programme. I am continuing to work hard to get the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), who said rebuilding finance for up to 11 of my local schools. We that fat cats are getting fatter at public expense. I believe are waiting for the James review on that. that is broadly his remark. That reminded me of an old Wyre Forest secondary schools were to be built under picture of the ancien régime in France, where the PFI contracts. In private chats that I had with various bureaucrats and princelings were riding on the backs of head teachers and governors, they were concerned that the poor. From what we have heard from Members of a PFI contract would tie their hands financially, limiting all parties, it seems that today we have a regime where their ability to determine their budgets and, therefore, the state and the clients of the state ride on the backs of investment in teaching and teachers. We all want new everybody else. schools, but at what cost to education? PFI has a place It is strange that so much money is being funnelled to in the future in terms of funding investment, but it has firms whose commercial risks are being underwritten to be done at the right price. A lot more work needs to by the power to tax. Far from protecting the poor, the be done on ensuring that we get the end product at the state now seems to be an institution for protecting the 181WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 182WH

[Steve Baker] that bundling remained necessary because without it the design and construction would not take on board rich from the risks they take with their own investments. maintenance costs in future. I suggest that they can be I am a capitalist, and I believe that capitalism requires decoupled. It is possible to design and put out to tender entrepreneurs and investors to bear their own risks. in such a way that the construction risk is assumed Somehow, through all this mire and mess we find ourselves through the PFI if required, by buying in management in, we need to recover the principles of a free society expertise from the private sector. However, the tail, and a vision of a capitalism that works, and works for where there is certainty of revenue, which is particularly everybody. Somehow, through all this mire and mess we attractive to other forms of finance companies, can be find ourselves in, we need to recover the principles of a decoupled. That will also avoid some of the complexity free society and a vision of a capitalism that works, and of contracts, which is where the opaque pricing structures works for everybody. often lie and the legal costs come in. I would welcome The state has become an enormous player in society. clarity on the extent to which the 61 pending PFIs will It spends about half of national income, and we have be bundled. ended up with far too many investors and companies looking to the state for its decisions. Where will it Mr Bacon: What is interesting is that the Treasury spend? What will it spend that money on? Whose risks sounded more reluctant to see unbundling than David will it underwrite? And so on and so on. It really is no Metter of Innisfree, who gave examples of projects in good. If we wish to call this a free society—one in which Canada where unbundling appears to work perfectly well. people make their own way and flourish—we really do Stephen Barclay: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. have to end the notion of the state as a giant player in It is helpful for the Minister to look at that example as a society. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, at benchmark. different times, has declared that the era of big government Secondly, although I am conscious of time, I want to is over. I think he is absolutely right, and I am delighted cover the public sector comparator. Hon. Members that that is the thrust of the Government’s direction of have touched on the fact that it has often been flawed, travel. because the PFI was a way of taking deals off the I think the British public have a fantastic sense of fair balance sheet and it was the only show in town, but play—that is one reason why Private Eye sells so well. I there have been other imperatives. There was a regulatory would like to share with the Government the final line imperative—not to mention, with a lot of marginal of Churchill’s quote: seats in the north-west, a political imperative—to go “Not enough people see it”— ahead with the Manchester incinerator, even though it capitalism— was, at 350 base points, over and above the 300 threshold “as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon”. that the Treasury had at the time. Likewise, there was a I congratulate the Government on bringing forward defence imperative to go ahead with the air tanker their paper, “Making Savings in Operational PFI contract, which was appalling value. The existing fleet Contracts,” but I urge them to go further, to try to was falling apart and there was no fall-back position, so recover that sense of fair play and regenerate those there was a defence need for that contract to go ahead. institutions of a free and fair society which support It would be interesting to get from the Minister a sense capitalism and support human flourishing, but above of the extent to which guidance has changed to guard all, pass that Private Eye test. against some of those risks, and how we as a House get visibility of whether a viable fall-back position has been developed for some of those 61 contracts. 4.46 pm Thirdly, specifically on defence, the response in the Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): Treasury minute of December 2010 is a little ambiguous. I am conscious that my hon. Friend the Member for It says: Warrington South (David Mowat) wants to speak, so I “The Government does not agree with the Committee’s shall try to limit my speech to half the time remaining. conclusion…on the applicability of PFI to Defence, but agrees In this debate and as a member of the Public Accounts with the Committee’s recommendation.” Committee, I have heard about many of the things that It will be interesting to see how guidance on defence have gone wrong in PFI, but I want to focus not on the PFIs will be refined. past but on the future. I shall do so by discussing three I welcome the appointment of David Pitchford in areas: first, contract design, because 61 PFIs are being connection with the major projects defence review. That planned; secondly, contract management, because there will be useful in addressing some of the problems we see is a big disparity between private sector and public with these contracts, such as their long-term nature and sector expertise, and I do not get a sense that it is being the increased costs. addressed, so it will continue to lead to poor value for money; and thirdly, if time allows I would like to touch Stella Creasy rose— on the secondary market, in particular the greater role Stephen Barclay: I will give way, but I wish to allow that insurers and pension funds could play in certain time for my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington elements of PFI, and the regulatory task force that the South to speak. Treasury has set up. It will be interesting to see how that will interplay and report back to the House. Stella Creasy: Briefly, does my colleague on the Public First, on contract design, my hon. Friend the Member Accounts Committee share my concern that Mr Pitchford for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) mentioned has said that he was not looking at PFI as part of his bundling. We had rather disturbing evidence from a work in the Major Projects Authority? That seems to Treasury official at the PAC last week, who suggested have been an oversight. 183WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 184WH

Stephen Barclay: I was just coming on to that exact The technique works best when the procurement point. Clarity would be welcome as to what falls under contract is written in such a way that, over its period, it his remit. properly aligns the profits of the contractor with the Turning to management, my hon. Friend the Member interests of the client, and that is where contracts have for Warrington South made a point about disparities. gone wrong so frequently. It is a technique that also One disparity is that, to take as an example Innisfree, works best when the market is reasonably deep, so that that firm has consolidated 24 hospital PFIs with one value for money is achievable, and some of the points provider, while 36% of hospitals have fewer than one about how weak the market is are right. The PFI full-time equivalent person managing PFI contracts, technique also works when there is a reasonable degree and 12% have no one managing them at all. There is of certainty as to the nature of the contract that is disparity in how contracts are being negotiated and needed, which is to say that multiple changes will not be managed, and even a good contract will be ineffective made over a 20 or 30-year period. Again, one issue is and poor value for money if it is not effectively managed. that, in certain instances, we have been locked into hospital contracts, which, as health care changes come In the Treasury minute it says that the Romford pilot, through, we are unable to alter. which health officials set great store by, will “hopefully” provide data that trusts can use, but there is no scope to Those reasons are why the PFI technique may be enforce that, and no requirement for an increase in the valid. There are instances, however, where we should amount of data being asked for. Again, we hear that not use PFI, and the overall reason why it has been a there is a potential solution, but that solution is not bad thing is because it has the characteristic of off- enforceable, the amount of data required will not be balance-sheet finance. It is a way of constructing a load increased and there is no transparency in the expertise of activity and projects without putting it on the public at the centre. The Department of Health has only four debt. I am sorry to say that—without being overly people providing PFI expertise, and the Public Accounts political—the previous Government built many schools Committee will hopefully get a note from Treasury and hospitals in that way, and, frankly, those schools officials clarifying that. and hospitals will be paid for over a long time. That is a poor thing. Finally, in the secondary market there is a problem with regulatory arbitrage, with different treatment of PFI also does not work if there are asymmetric insurers and banks in their access to the market. It is negotiating skills, and we have heard much about that important that the Treasury arm that deals with regulation this afternoon. Unfortunately, that is the case in the is joined up with the arm that deals with finance. On the example that my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre refinancing taskforce, the acknowledgment that life Forest (Mark Garnier) gave about the contractor’s interest insurance and pension funds are important alternative and expertise. All that is true. It strikes me that the issue sources of finance is not clear in the February 2011 is also one of accountability. In an earlier intervention, minute. It also states that I made the point that I see no accountability in public “the refinancing task force will act on this recommendation”. sector procurement, which is disappointing. That is very welcome, but how will it do it, and by what The consequence of all that is that we get the multiple date? How will the House get scrutiny of that? messes that have been mentioned. I was interested in the example that was given by my hon. Friend the Member Perhaps the Minister can touch on these areas in her for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) of a hospital that is under closing remarks. I commend my hon. Friend the Member pressure because work has had to be transferred to a for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) PFI hospital, because exactly the same thing is happening for the work that he has done in this campaign, and for to Warrington hospital due to a large PFI hospital the formidable way in which he has taken it forward. being built just up the road and needing patients to satisfy the contract. That is an example of terrible 4.53 pm failure. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I thank my I am delighted that the review of contracts is going hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire on, but I want to raise several points that I do not fully (Stephen Barclay) for shortening his speech to let me understand. We have to be careful about opening up in—I hope it was worth it. Along with other hon. contracts that have been entered into in good faith, and Members, I commend the hon. Member for Hereford we must be careful about bandying about profit figures. and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) for his important In my previous life, I had some contracts where I made initiative. a lot of profit, and I had some where I made so much It seems to me that the PFI is a procurement technique loss that it could not be counted. It is only reasonable that has been used over the past decade or so—perhaps that all such activity is looked at in the round, so we for longer. Like any technique, it can be used wisely or must be careful. Regarding the list of organisations that poorly. There are certain instances, when a project has was read out earlier, I reiterate that, as far as I am certain characteristics, when it is probably a good technique aware, none of those companies are making excessive to use, for example when there is a significant construction profits in terms of return on capital employed or share phase that is difficult. The private sector is able to do price. We need to think through what is happening that, and we want to transfer the risk. I heard about the between the extraordinary profits that everyone is talking Edinburgh tram system on the radio this morning. That about and the fact that those publicly quoted organisations system is an appalling failure, and I do not think that it do not seem to making them. is a PFI project. PFI is a technique that also works It is worth trying to get some of the money back in when trying to minimise life-cycle costs, because there the same way that the Cabinet Office has been doing for are some advantages in looking at the overall operability large consultancy and IT projects. However, what carrot of a scheme as well as its construction. are we giving to such people, who in many instances 185WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 186WH

[David Mowat] There was then a bit of a debate between the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and the hon. entered into contracts in good faith? From their point Member for South Norfolk, who made an intervention, of view, they have carried out the contracts to the best about specifications in contracts. I am talking about of their ability. In the case of the Cabinet Office initiative, this as someone who was once involved in negotiating the bribe being used is the threat of not getting further PFI contracts when I worked for a City law firm at a contracts unless they play this game. That is a valid very junior level—although I was pretty much photocopying thing, and the directors, who have a fiduciary responsibility the documents and proofreading, rather than doing the to their shareholders, can go back to their boards and heavy duty negotiations. There is an issue about whether say that they have a choice to make: they can either the process should be about over-specifying everything knock some money off or do no more work for the in advance—crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s—so that Government. That is their choice. In our discussions in those involved do not get into complicated negotiations this area, we must enable ourselves to create that choice throughout the term of the contract. That is a laborious for such organisations. I am not sure that characterising process. Perhaps there is some way of creating a PFI them all as money-grabbing private sector rogues is contract that is flexible enough not to get into such necessarily the way forward. I have heard a bit of that situations. this afternoon. Let me give an example of a school in my constituency. I shall sit down now but, before I do, I again congratulate An issue arose when new keys were needed for the room my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South where the sports equipment was kept. Because that was Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) on initiating the debate. not in the contract, the school was not allowed to get its The issue is very important and could have significant own keys copied and had to get the contractor to copy impacts on all our communities. the keys. It became a huge thing with huge costs attached, 5pm which is obviously ridiculous. However, it would also be Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): I, too, congratulate ridiculous to have a contract—having photocopied them, the hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire I know how huge they are—that specified who was to (Jesse Norman) on securing the debate. It has been a get the keys copied, if another bunch of keys were very interesting two-and-a-half hours so far, and I am needed. Those are certainly valid points, and I do not sure that it will have been a very interesting three hours have the answers on how we can resolve that. by the end of the debate. There has been an unusually The wider point is whether such a situation is specific high turnout for a Thursday afternoon debate, for which to the negotiation of PFI contracts or whether it is an we are normally on a one-line Whip. During the afternoon, issue with public procurement contracts generally. The I gather that we have moved from a one-line Whip to a hon. Member for Wyre Forest (Mark Garnier) mentioned three-line Whip and back again to a one-line Whip, so the asymmetry in negotiating skills between civil servants hon. Members are free to go at 5.30 pm, if they really in the public sector or people in local government and want to. hard-headed business people. That is an issue, but it The hon. Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire also occurs in other public procurement realms as well is right—or he at least makes a valid point for discussion— as in relation to PFI schemes. The hon. Member for about a number of issues. He is right in saying that there Wycombe (Steve Baker) developed that into a philosophical has not been enough debate and scrutiny about the PFI discussion on the role of the private sector. Whether the issue in that past. That is partly because, as the debate conversation we are having this afternoon is going has reflected, it often comes down to the devil being in down slightly too anti-capitalist a route for him is the detail of individual contracts. It is hard to extrapolate something that we could explore at greater length on from that general point whether the PFI is a bad thing another day. or a good thing, or whether there are particular flaws in some of the contractual processes. I will come on to In the limited time that I have left, I want to focus on that in a moment, because it is a valid issue to thrash a few questions for the Minister, who will respond in a out. moment. The Government have confirmed that they The hon. Gentleman is also right in saying that not remain committed to the PFI model that was used by enough data are available on PFI schemes. I shall touch the Labour party. In their technical update last year, on some of the difficulties with the PFI. As I have they said that they remain committed to public-private said—I do not think he used this phrase—the devil is in partnerships, including those delivered by the PFI, and the detail. We have heard some micro-detail about that such arrangements will continue to play an important issues such as car parking, and the hon. Member for part in delivering Britain’s infrastructure. South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) discussed As we have heard, PFI schemes are still expanding at a hockey pitch that was slightly too short and the a significant rate. In March, 61 new PFIs were procured difficulty in rectifying that situation. The hon. Member with a total capital value of £6.9 billion, which represents for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) touched on an expansion of more than 10% in the total capital some local issues. The hon. Member for South Norfolk currently committed under PFI. The Government’s support (Mr Bacon) and others mentioned the naivety of the is somewhat surprising given the criticisms that have civil servants who negotiated the deals and that perhaps been aired. Liberal Democrat Members were scathing a lack of commercial nous meant that they did not about the PFI model before the general election. The realise the private sector would seek to maximise profits Deputy Prime Minister described it as over the contractual term. Other hon. Members then developed that point, and the hon. Member for Warrington “a bit of dodgy accounting—a way in which the Government can South (David Mowat) talked about multiple procurement pretend they’re not borrowing when they are, and we’ll all be failures. picking up the tab in 30 years.” 187WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 188WH

The Liberal Democrats called for a UK infrastructure responsibly and where it delivers the best value for bank that would reduce the cost of long-term funding money for the taxpayer. I accept that the issue deserves compared with the PFI. greater scrutiny, and I look forward to hearing what the Before the election, the then shadow Chancellor said: Minister has to say about how the Government can take that forward. “The government’s use of PFI has become totally discredited…Labour’s PFI model is flawed and must be replaced.” 5.10 pm In 2009, he said that “we are working on reforms to the discredited PFI model that are The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine transparently accounted for and genuinely shift risk to the private Greening): I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member sector.” for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman) As I have said, a significant number of PFI projects are for securing this debate. The topic is incredibly important, in the pipeline, so the work is still continuing. Will the and he has done a brilliant job of raising it high up the Minister explain where the Government are on reviewing agenda and rightly so. the PFI model? Have any changes been made to the PFI We have heard from many Members today, but not model since the Government were elected last year? Are from as many Opposition Members as we might have further issues under consideration? Have the Government expected. Many Members feel that the PFI has, in their managed to save any money from the PFI? experience and their constituencies, let them down. In a document published in January, the Treasury Nevertheless, one of the qualities of today’s debate was said: the balance demonstrated by hon. Members. Not all PFI contracts have been bad. Many have delivered good “Value for money is a cornerstone of PFI and the key rationale contracts. There have been bad ones for the taxpayer for its use.” and bad ones for the private sector. The one that is But the Financial Times reported earlier this year that particularly close to my heart, as my hon. Friend the the Government are struggling to find PFI savings. I Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon) has mentioned, appreciate that the pilot project involving the Queen’s is the public-private partnership for the London hospital, Romford was launched in February to identify underground. Investment in my stretch of the underground where savings could be made. Will the Minister tell us was significantly delayed, because of its bad structure what savings have been found to date? I gather that that and the ultimate failure of both of the private companies hospital was chosen, because it is representative of a that participated in it due to the losses that they were typical PFI project, so should we presume that the making as a result of their poor contracting. The topic savings that are identified by the Romford project could is important. be used as an example to make similar savings from My observation as an incoming Treasury Minister other projects? was that the background to the issue was all part and The Government must also decide whether the PFI is parcel of a much broader lack of financial management right in every case. Much has been said about Labour’s shown by the previous Government across government. use of the PFI when it was in government, but, I might address that later, if I have time, but I intend to unfortunately, I do not have time to go into that. leave a couple of minutes at the end to my hon. Friend Although the PFI played a major role in delivering the the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire to Building Schools for the Future programme, it is a good have a final say. example of where Labour used the PFI where it would As my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve deliver savings to the taxpayer, but used conventional Baker) and a number of other colleagues have pointed procurement where appropriate. Of the BSF capital out, the main attraction for the previous Government in allocated up to 2011, 41% was provided through the turbo-charging the PFI process was the fact that they PFI, with the rest coming from conventional public were able to spend not only taxpayers’ money that was funding. In the NHS, 118 new hospitals would not have being earned at the time, but taxpayers’ money that had been built without the PFI—88 were provided through not even been earned and that would be earned at some the PFI, and 30 were provided through conventional point in the future. The main appeal of PFI for them procurement. What principles are the Government working was that it was off balance sheet. It was also unfortunate to in assessing the viability of PFI projects? In how that it came at a time when that Government thought that many cases have the Government decided to use a they had abolished boom and bust and were saying that non-PFI approach, because the PFI is not seen as value we all lived in the land of milk and honey. The general for money? ethos that was applied to the public sector was to spend, As my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow spend, spend, get on with things, and be less worried (Stella Creasy) pointed out in the Public Accounts about whether it was good value and just get on with Committee today, 33 deals, which generated £38 million the job at hand. My hon. Friend the Member for in profit last year, paid only £100,000 in tax. Treasury Worcester (Mr Walker) pointed out how that impacted officials have confirmed that the tax consequence of the upon his local hospital. deal was part of the initial assessment of the contract, We have some problems. I will discuss what the but subsequent changes, such as moving offshore, were Treasury is doing to try to sort some of them out, but not. Will the Minister confirm that she is looking into we seem to have three main issues. One is a lack of that issue? What steps will be taken in future PFI deals accountability, which is an inherent risk in these contracts, to prevent tax avoidance? mainly because of their longevity and the fact that the Finally, the PFI model allowed enormous investment people who set them up will not be there to manage to take place under the previous Government. It simply them or be accountable for them throughout their duration. would not have been possible on that scale without the There is also an issue of transparency, and I will talk PFI, but we accept that the PFI should only be used later about what we are doing in that regard. Underpinning 189WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 190WH

[Justine Greening] use the PFI as a means to increase their budgets, with the potential for diverting funds away from more beneficial all that is the need for value for money and for having areas—areas that could have offered taxpayers better contracts in place that deliver on behalf of taxpayers in value for money. Now, the economic case for PFI projects the way in which they are meant to. My hon. Friend the must be compared by Departments and local authorities Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) put it on a like-for-like basis with the other calls that they very well: PFI can work, but the challenge is making have on their budgets. sure that, in structuring our contracts, we end up with a I have huge respect for my hon. Friend the Member win-win situation for the private sector contractor, for for South Norfolk. His experience on the Public Accounts the public sector and for taxpayers. We can do that, but Committee goes back many, many years. As he pointed the challenge that we saw over the past decade is that it out, too often there has been insufficient competition just did not happen often enough. and an insufficient ability for firms to compete. I actually The shadow Minister asked about the number of felt that he was violently agreeing with my hon. Friend contracts that we have signed off. No PFI contracts the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) on the point have been approved yet by the new Government, and we about specifying contracts. The key is to specify contracts have put in place much more stringent processes to smartly, in other words tying down the details that need ensure that any contracts that go ahead have a much to be tied down in areas where we have certainty, as my better prospect of being good value for money. hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South pointed My hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) out, but leaving flexibility in other areas—the right asked whether the Government are looking closely to areas. see how we can ensure that we get value for money. We I remember that that issue arose when I was serving are doing that—he is absolutely right to say that we on the Work and Pensions Committee when I came into should do it—and we are doing it across the board. this House, which I very much enjoyed. We looked at Many hon. Members discussed transparency, which I the EDS contract in relation to the Department for will discuss shortly. My observation is that one of the Work and Pensions. That point—the importance of reasons why we are debating the PFI is that, ironically, flexibility—was one of the key things that came out of there is perhaps more transparency in the PFI in some that process. I am sure that EDS will not mind my respects than there is across the rest of Government putting this on the record, but one of the challenges spend. One of the projects that I am leading on behalf that it faced was that it was dealing with a Government of the Treasury is to introduce common chartered accounts. who wanted to specify absolutely everything and therefore Any hon. Member who has been in business will find it the cost of the contract absolutely ballooned. In fact, fantastical to learn that the Government do not have what was needed for that system was to retain an common chartered accounts, but that is indeed the case. element of flexibility for future demands as they evolved. Once that system is in place, once we are able to The key to success in all these contracts is people upgrade the combined online information system database understanding not only what needs to be tied down in and once we can drive central Government further in terms of the contract but, critically, where flexibility terms of the transparency agenda, we will go through a must be left. similar process of lifting up the stone on central Government We have issued new guidance, which the shadow spend as we have done in relation to PFI contracts. Minister, the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry Transparency is absolutely critical in that regard. McCarthy), asked about, to strengthen the approvals I want to outline where there is room for improvement. for PFI projects. As of 1 April this year, any centrally We are all aware that we face tough economic conditions funded projects that are outside a Department’s delegated and that we must ensure that we get value for money. authority have to go through a rigorous three-stage The Government have already taken a number of steps scrutiny and approval process with the Treasury. To put to address many of the concerns about the use of PFI in that in context, previously the Treasury only reviewed funding public infrastructure, concerns that have been PFI projects when they were at the outline business case expressed in this important debate. I will go on to talk stage. After that, it was only the risky ones that were briefly about what we are doing in relation to existing further reviewed. We now have a three-stage scrutiny contracts, but first I will talk about what we are doing to process, which means that projects are subject to far ensure that we can achieve good value for the taxpayer more scrutiny as they are being developed. In addition, for new projects. the largest and most risky projects in Government will With new projects, value for money is, of course, the be subject to a review by the Major Projects Authority, primary driver for the choice of procurement route. We which has just been established by the Minister for the are very clear that private finance should be used only Cabinet Office. when it can be demonstrated that it offers better value We have also published guidance to help public sector for money than a publicly financed alternative. As I bodies identify savings in their PFI contracts. I will have said, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester come on to the Romford case study in a second and made a powerful case in relation to that. We have provide hon. Members with an update. All the measures already taken measures to strengthen the value for that I have outlined should mean that we are better money assessment of new projects. placed to ensure that only those projects that offer the As the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) pointed best value for money to taxpayers can go ahead, which out, we abolished PFI credits in the 2010 spending is absolutely right. review. Previously, funding for local government projects As for operational savings, clearly we have a number was ring-fenced. That had become a genuine cause for of PFI projects that are in place and operating right concern, because what it actually meant was that now. Therefore, it is about looking at not only new Government Departments and local authorities could projects but the existing stock of PFI projects. As many 191WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 192WH hon. Members are aware, we have taken a strong interest balance sheets. The whole of Government accounts in the pilot savings project that is currently under way at project, which will be completed in the coming months, the Queen’s hospital in Romford. As my hon. Friend the is basically, in a nutshell, the Government’s first set of Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire said in consolidated accounts. They will be done under a recent newspaper article, we have taken a deep dive to international financial reporting standards—in other get under the skin of the project to see where we can words, proper accounting standards—and they will put save money. He raised the idea of a rebate. Although we that liability on the balance sheet, so giving us a sense of want to drive savings, it is a challenge to do that with what it is for the first time. That will show the massive contracts that are already in place, as the hon. Member liabilities that were run up by the previous Government for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy) pointed out. Nevertheless, not only for our generation but for future generations. we want to try to save money. The Green Book covers offshore tax. I understand The pilot is nearing its conclusion, and we will be the point made by the hon. Member for Walthamstow. passing on the lessons that we have learned to the wider From my experience of having worked in business, of PFI portfolio—of course, there will some lessons that course we want to look at the bottom bottom line, but are not applicable. Given the commercial sensitivity of we also need to be pragmatic in understanding that the pilot, it is probably inappropriate for me to comment companies will always look at their tax position. If they in more detail before it is completed. However, I assure think that they are having to move onshore and are hon. Members that the pilot has made good progress and disadvantaged by doing so, there is always a sneaky that there will be lessons that we can take from it to help suspicion that they will recoup that lost cost elsewhere. to achieve better value for money from existing contracts. It is not quite as straightforward as simply saying that My hon. Friends the Members for Wycombe and for we should not use any company based offshore. North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) asked The key challenge for us all is to ensure that we have a about guidance. We have been seeking industry agreement more competitive tax system in the first place that does to a new voluntary code of conduct to support the idea not drive companies offshore, which is why we are of achieving operational savings from other PFI projects. reducing corporation tax year on year. I very much That is important not only for getting better value for hope that the hon. Lady will find time to support and money but for driving better standards of transparency, vote for that when the Finance (No. 3) Bill finally goes so it is clearer to the outside world what contracts are through. The best way to tackle offshore tax is to have a delivering for the general public. We also issued some competitive tax regime that makes companies want to draft operational savings guidance in January 2011. stay in the UK and be based here for tax in the first Therefore, although the pilot in Romford is still ongoing, place. we have already issued some guidance on where further savings can be made. Stella Creasy: I am interested in what the Minister As for the PFI rebate, the Chancellor and the Commercial has said. Does that mean that the Treasury will rewrite Secretary have both met with my hon. Friend the Member the Green Book so that it does not take account of the for Hereford and South Herefordshire. We fully support potential tax take under a PFI, if she is saying that the principle of making savings in PFI contracts and we offshore tax avoidance is unavoidable in some circumstances, will look carefully at how we can do that over the given that it is part of the value-for-money decision on coming weeks, months and years. a PFI? There is a specific point about PFI and tax, so The Government want to improve the financial will the Green Book be rewritten so that it is not part of transparency of PFI projects. We currently collect and the decision in future? publish data on each PFI project twice a year. That includes information on the capital value, the equity Justine Greening: We are not going to rewrite the owners and the full stream of payments over a project’s Green Book. My point is that there are a number of life. The Cabinet Office is now publishing tender documents variables in any PFI contract. There are several variables and contracts for all future central Government projects over in the overall propensity for it to be profitable for the £25,000, and that will capture privately financed projects. taxpayer in relation to value for money or for the My hon. Friend the Member for Wyre Forest (Mark private sector firms considering engaging in it. Tax is Garnier) mentioned the PFI equity issue and the trading one of those variables. Obviously, it can change, as can in secondary markets. We agree that more can be done the costs, which the parties to the public-private partnership in that area and that there is not sufficient transparency for the tube discovered once they became engaged in it. around investor returns, particularly with regard to We need to tackle the underlying issue that under the secondary market sales. The Treasury is now collaborating previous Government Britain became uncompetitive in with the National Audit Office to look at PFI equity the corporation tax world. We have got to get back to issues including not only transparency, but equity risk being more competitive over the coming years, which is issues and equity returns. We are currently working exactly what we plan to do. with it to ensure that we scope that work stream effectively We are working on the skills agenda across Government. to obtain output that will be of use to the Government. I do not have time to go into that now, because I want to We are also engaging with PFI investors and contractors give a minute to my hon. Friend the Member for to reach agreement on the voluntary code of conduct, Hereford and South Herefordshire. I assure hon. Members as I have said, and transparency will form a critical part that we recognise that, as does the civil service. There is of that. currently a huge review of skills going on across Value for money, not the accounting treatment, should Government to ensure that we have the right skills in be the key determinant of whether a PFI scheme goes place. We have therefore taken a number of steps. I ahead. We have talked briefly about the fact that public- know that my hon. Friend wants to come in, so I will private partnerships have been left off Government conclude my remarks. 193WH Private Finance Initiative23 JUNE 2011 Private Finance Initiative 194WH

5.29 pm which they would have been built. Secondly, far from being difficult to negotiate, a rebate is under way as we Jesse Norman: I am grateful to you, Mrs Main, for speak, and that process will culminate in the code of permitting me to speak again. I want to thank everyone conduct that the Minister mentioned. I welcome the who has contributed today. It has been a fascinating support given to the code of conduct by the Minister and extraordinarily enriching debate. I thank the Minister and other Ministers all the way up to the Chancellor. and the shadow Minister. I especially thank the Minister, Thirdly, we need a wider debate, and I hope that we will who is not formally responsible for PFI, for discharging have it in the main Chamber soon. that responsibility today. I have three short comments. First, the claim that 5.30 pm without the PFI products would not have been built is Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order not true. A cheaper PFI could have been devised under No. 10(11)). 21WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 22WS Written Ministerial EU Extraordinary Competitiveness Council

Statements The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey): My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Baroness Wilcox, Thursday 23 June 2011 has made the following statement: I shall represent the UK at an EU Extraordinary Competitiveness Council that will take place in Luxembourg on 27 June 2011. There will be legislative deliberation on two Council items. The BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS first is a proposal for a Regulation of the Council and the European Parliament implementing enhanced co-operation in the area of the creation of unitary patent protection. The second Apprenticeships (Creation of Opportunities) is a proposal for a Council Regulation implementing enhanced co-operation in the area of unitary patent protection with regard to the applicable translation arrangements. The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong The presidency’s main aim is to obtain a general approach Learning (Mr John Hayes): One of the first announcements from member states on the two proposals. I made as Minister of State for Further Education, There is also likely to be an information point relating to the Skills and Lifelong Learning was that the Government adoption of a general approach on the decision on the Euratom would redeploy £150 million of Train to Gain funding framework programme for 2012-13. to deliver an additional 50,000 adult apprenticeships. A commitment to apprenticeships which was reinforced by the Chancellor in the comprehensive spending review and the Budget. CABINET OFFICE Fulfilling our ambitions was bound to be challenging given the difficult economic circumstances. As we publish the latest “Statistical First Release” Government Communication today, I am, therefore, delighted to be able to confirm that we have greatly exceeded this ambition. Provisional data show that the Government have delivered 326,700 The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster apprenticeship starts in the first nine months of the General (Mr Francis Maude): I am today announcing 2010-11 academic year—this is 114,000 more than the reforms to the organisation of Government Communication. previous year and more than double our ambition. The The changes, which will lead to the closure of the growth has been across sectors, at all ages and all levels. Central Office of Information, will further improve the There has also been an increase in participation levels effectiveness and efficiency of Government communications. for 16-18 and 19+ learners. Final data covering this period will be reported in the January “Release”. The They follow the introduction of spending controls on full report can be downloaded from the website at: advertising and marketing in June last year. This led to http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ a 68% reduction in external spend through the COI statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current. from £532 million in 2009-10 to an estimated £168 million This is an historic achievement not just for Government in 2010-11. In parallel, Government Departments have but for employers, training providers and learners too. reduced their number of in-house communications staff We have given colleges greater freedoms and flexibilities by around a quarter, and their budgets by a half. to meet the needs of businesses in their communities— The reforms are designed to consolidate those reductions, consequently they have harnessed a very strong evidence while ensuring that the remaining spend on advertising base to persuade employers to invest in apprenticeships. and marketing is better co-ordinated and executed. Providers and employers have worked closely with the The changes will: National Apprenticeships Service and Skills Funding Agency to deliver these impressive additional apprenticeship Strengthen central co-ordination, prioritisation and strategic planning of communications across Government; starts. Put in place a new governance structure to increase accountability This growth proves that employers recognise and transparency and to drive collective responsibility. This apprenticeships to be a sound platform for long term will include the appointment of an executive director, and economic prosperity. To build on this work we are now the establishment of a communications delivery board; focusing on encouraging firms who have not taken on Create a specialist communications procurement unit under an apprentice before to do so and helping those who the leadership of the Government Procurement; have to expand their programmes particularly at advanced Enable Government to explore how they can best capitalise and higher levels. I hope that this year’s expansion is on the capability which exists in communications across part of a step change in attitudes towards the recruitment Government, through a programme of reviews; of apprentices. Explore the development of a shared communications delivery The significant progress on apprenticeships is part of pool for certain specialist services; and for a small number of our wider programme of reform of further education specialist marketing hubs. and skills. This will make a crucial contribution in These proposals will constitute the Government’s securing sustainable economic growth. response to the former permanent secretary for I have placed a copy of the letter I sent to all hon. Government Communication’s “Review of government Members in the Libraries of both Houses. direct communication and the role of COI”. 23WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre (Targets 2011-12) Abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies (Government Response) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): My noble Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Communities The Secretary of State for Communities and Local and Local Government, Baroness Hanham, has made Government (Mr Eric Pickles): I have today laid before the following written ministerial statement: Parliament the “Government Response to the Communities I am today announcing that key performance targets have been and Local Government Committee’s Report: Abolition agreed for the Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre for the of Regional Spatial Strategies: a planning vacuum” period 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012. (Cm 8103). Copies are available in the Vote Office. The agency’s principal financial target for 2011-12 is to achieve a minimum dividend payment to the Department for Communities I welcome the Committee’s report and I have carefully and Local Government equal to the total of 6% of average capital considered its findings. The debate has helped to inform employed and a sum equal to the capital charge that applies to the the amendments that we made to the Localism Bill at building for the year concerned. Therefore, the agency’s budget the Commons Report stage to strengthen the duty to for 2011-12 includes a minimum dividend payment of £1,100,000. co-operate and my Department will continue to take An additional dividend of £100,000 will be paid if the financial the findings into account as policy is developed. forecast for the year is achieved. The agency also has the following targets to achieve: The Government’s top priority in reforming the planning A 54% occupancy of its rooms based on a theoretical full system is to promote sustainable economic growth and occupancy revenue of £9,680,970; jobs. We made clear in the growth review that our top Overall score for value-for-money satisfaction of greater priority in introducing the national planning policy than 90%; framework will be to support long-term sustainable The number of complaints received to be less than two per growth, through both development plans and decisions 100 events; and on planning applications. An average response time when answering complaints of less We have made it plain that our decision to remove than four working days. regional strategies was based on clear evidence that they did not work. We are determined to address this through DEFENCE our clear and comprehensive approach to reform: promoting economic growth and recovery through Libya (Operation Ellamy) incentives such as the new homes bonus and a reformed community infrastructure levy; encouraging local authorities to work together effectively across their boundaries The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox): through a strengthened duty to co-operate; and driving The current estimate of the net additional costs of house building by combining the incentives we are military operations for six months in support of Operation introducing with the removal of top-down targets. Ellamy—the United Kingdom’s contribution to coalition operations in support of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973—is in the region of £120 million. This Ordnance Survey (Performance Targets 2011-12) excludes costs associated with capital munitions expended. Based upon current consumption rates we estimate the cost of replenishing munitions may be up to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for £140 million. Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): My The Treasury has agreed to meet these costs from the hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State, Baroness reserve. Hanham, has made the following written ministerial statement: I am today announcing that performance targets have been EDUCATION agreed for Ordnance Survey for the period 2011-12. The Ordnance Survey will report externally against these targets as is required of Use of Force in Schools all Executives agencies in Government. The targets are: To achieve an operating profit before exceptional items, The Minister of State, Department for Education interest and dividends of £25.3 million for the financial year 1 April 2011 to 31 March 2012. (Mr Nick Gibb): The Secretary of State for Education has asked Charlie Taylor, the Government’s expert adviser To achieve a free cash-flow before exceptional items of £24.2 million for the financial year 1 April 2011 to 31 March on behaviour and an experienced and successful head 2012. teacher with a track record in radically improving behaviour Some 99.6% of significant real-world features greater than in troubled schools, to review the implications for schools six months-old are represented in the database. of the requirement to record and report the use of force in schools, as set out in section 246 of the Apprenticeships, To continue to reduce the underlying cost base of the business by on average 5% per annum measured against a baseline of Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009. In particular, 2008-09 costs. Charlie Taylor has been asked to make sure that the To achieve a customer index score of at least 80%. accompanying guidance provides the best possible advice to schools on establishing “light touch” systems These targets reflect Ordnance Survey’s continuing commitment to customers, to implementing the business strategy announced in while still providing protection for pupils and staff. It April 2010, to maintaining and delivering intelligent geographic remains our intention to commence this requirement information to all users, and to offering improved value for from 1 September 2011, subject to the outcome of money for all, as well as a commitment to Government policies. Charlie Taylor’s review. 25WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 26WS

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE work on the earlier drafts. I am today taking the opportunity to lay before you the Government’s response to Parliament alongside the revised NPSs. Energy National Policy Statements I am today also publishing a Government response to the latest consultation, to which there were over 2,500 The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change responses; a draft of the post-adoption statement on (Chris Huhne): On 18 October 2010, I laid the revised the Appraisals of Sustainability which informed the draft “Energy National Policy Statements” before this drafting of the NPSs; and the monitoring strategy House. At the same time, I undertook to present the which sets out how we will monitor the significant finalised statements to Parliament for approval. environmental effects of implementation of the NPSs. Having considered the responses to consultation and Copies of all these documents have been deposited in parliamentary scrutiny on the revised draft Energy National the Libraries of both Houses and are available at: Policy Statement, and the outputs of the interim report http://www.energynpsconsultation.decc.gov.uk of the chief nuclear inspector, Dr Mike Weightman, on The House has provisionally set aside time for a lessons to be learned from events at Fukushima, I am debate on these documents before the House of Commons pleased today to be able to present the six energy NPSs votes on them. for parliamentary approval. This represents a further important milestone in the coalition Government’s Oil Stock Release determination to make the UK a truly attractive market for investors, to give us secure, affordable, low-carbon The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change energy. NPSs are critical to the new planning system, (Chris Huhne): The UK today joined its partners in the which will help developers bring forward energy projects International Energy Agency (IEA) in releasing oil without facing unnecessary hold-ups, while making sure stocks to the market. A total of 60 million barrels of local people get a chance to have their say about how oil will be made available to the market over the next their communities develop, and decisions are made in 30 days, with the UK contributing some 3 million an accountable way by elected Ministers. barrels. The Energy National Policy Statements therefore Violence in Libya and Yemen has disrupted the global form a key part of our plans to move to a low-carbon supply of oil, and we expect the loss of Libyan light future while protecting the security of the UK’s energy sweet crude production to continue for some time. Low supplies. Business and industry frequently tell us that seasonal demand has enabled markets to cope so far investment in infrastructure is key to enabling them with the loss of production. However, we expect the create the growth and jobs the UK needs. NPSs will market to come under increased pressure in the coming provide market certainty by giving developers confidence months due to the normal seasonal upturn in demand. to bring forward applications to build the infrastructure The action taken today will help ensure that the market we need. This will ensure the UK has diverse sources of does not tighten further. The global economy is still generation and remains at the forefront of low-carbon emerging from recession, and it is essential that this technological development, and in turn will enable us to recovery is not endangered by oil supply disruptions or generate jobs and growth in this rapidly expanding shortages. Volatile oil prices damage the economy of sector. every country. The impact is disproportionately high on NPSs do this by setting out the need for new energy the poorest countries in the world, who are most vulnerable infrastructure, including electricity from a mixed portfolio to rises in energy prices and the knock-on impact on of all types of generation. They provide a clear framework food prices. Adequate volumes of oil must be made for decision-making on planning applications for major available at a price acceptable to both producers and energy infrastructure, protecting local communities from consumers. unacceptable impacts while ensuring that “nimbyism” Earlier this month Saudi Arabia and other Gulf does not get in the way of meeting the national need for states committed to increase oil production to supply energy. whatever the market needs: this is a helpful action by Together, the NPSs set out national policy on a responsible producer nations, and we believe it will number of key energy policy areas. Five of these cover ensure the oil market is adequately supplied in the specific technologies: fossil fuels; renewables; gas supply coming months and beyond. The stock release is designed and gas and oil pipelines; electricity networks; and to complement the action by Saudi Arabia and other nuclear. These five sit below an overarching energy Gulf states by making available light crudes and refined NPS, and together they play an important role in the products. The stock release will help prevent short term new planning system for major infrastructure. This new supply disruption driving a more volatile oil price, that system, as proposed by the Localism Bill, retains the could damage the UK economy and threaten the global consultative approach (both on the NPSs and the economic recovery. consultation of local people in individual applications) and the transparency of the IPC system while increasing ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS democratic accountability through returning the final decision to Ministers. Annual Report and Accounts for the Veterinary Medicines Directorate Parliament has already played a valuable role in scrutinising the revised draft energy NPSs both here and in another place. I would like to thank the Energy The Minister of State, Department for Environment, and Climate Change Committee for its report, all those Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): The 2010-11 who contributed to the debate in this House, and those annual report and accounts for the Veterinary Medicines in another place who also undertook important scrutiny Directorate was laid before Parliament today. 27WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 28WS

JUSTICE of the youth justice secure estate and the placement of young people in custody will continue to be driven by Youth Justice Board (Abolition) people who have a dedicated focus on the needs of young people. The structure will also ensure that youth justice work in the community—primarily conducted The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice by youth offending teams—remains closely linked to (Mr Kenneth Clarke): I am today announcing further work with young offenders in custody. This is at the detail on the Government’s plans for the future national heart of our ambitions for a “rehabilitation revolution”. governance of youth justice. It is my intention to abolish I can confirm that John Drew, the current chief the Youth Justice Board (YJB) and to bring its key executive of the YJB, has agreed to lead the transition functions into the Ministry of Justice (MoJ). My hon. of the YJB into the new YouthJustice Division structure Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the and to continue to lead it beyond that. I am confident Minister responsible for civil society, the Member for that he will ensure there is continuity between the YJB Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), will be and the new Youth Justice Division. He will also help to bringing forward a Government amendment to reintroduce ensure that the new organisation is embedded in the the YJB to schedule 1 (the list of bodies to be abolished) MoJ while retaining the experience and expertise of of the Public Bodies Bill currently before this House. YJB staff. The Youth Justice Board was set up in 1998 to My Department will also strengthen its focus on oversee what was then a fractured and immature system. youth justice by establishing an advisory board of In the past 12 years the system has changed considerably. stakeholders and experts to advise on youth justice In response to a lack of cohesion and collaborative issues and to provide expert challenge and scrutiny. In working, the YJB has overseen the national roll-out of addition, Dame Sue Street, a non-executive director of youth offending teams and the establishment of a distinct the MoJ who brings experience and knowledge of youth secure estate for young people. These core elements of justice, will be taking an active interest in youth justice the youth justice system are now fully operational in the within MoJ, and will have a direct route into the Department local delivery of youth justice. Given these significant through the permanent secretary and Secretary of State. improvements, I believe that we no longer require a separate body to provide oversight of the youth justice In making this decision I have taken into account the system. concerns expressed by some interested parties and noble Lords about the abolition of the YJB and our plans for Effective oversight can be better achieved by bringing the future governance of youth justice. My Department this function closer to Ministers; and it is right that will consult on the YJB’s inclusion in the Bill over the Ministers themselves—not unelected officials in arm’s summer, and I will pay close attention to the responses. length bodies (ALBs)—should be responsible for youth My reform proposals are also subject to the progress of justice, which is a critical area of Government policy. It the Bill through Parliament, and the abolition of the is Ministers who should lead and drive forward the YJB will require me to lay an order, subject to affirmative work that will result in further reductions in the numbers resolution process. This proposal has therefore already of young people entering the youth justice system, the been widely discussed with stakeholders and will continue numbers of young people reoffending and the numbers to be subject to consultation and to full and appropriate of young people in custody. By bringing youth justice parliamentary scrutiny. closer to Ministers, the new Youth Justice Division I am establishing will be a powerful impetus behind future improvement, will be able to influence policy across Government and will ensure that other Departments TRANSPORT play their part in stopping young people from becoming involved in crime and reoffending. An ALB does not have the appropriate policy leverage within Government Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (ATOL) to effect such change. (Consultation) The abolition of the YJB will not have an adverse impact on the delivery of youth justice on the ground. The Minister of State, Department for Transport The Government intend to retain youth offending (Mrs Theresa Villiers): I am pleased to announce that a teams, which are well embedded in local structures. My consultation on reforming the air travel organisers’ Department will also continue to place young people licensing (ATOL) scheme is being published today. separately to adult offenders in a dedicated secure estate Since its inception some 40 years ago, the ATOL that is driven by the needs of young people. There will scheme has successfully protected many millions of be clear ministerial oversight of this. consumers on flight-inclusive package holidays against It is my intention to carry out the main functions of the insolvency of their travel company. However, the the YJB within a newly created youth justice division in travel trade and holiday market has seen significant the MoJ. The Youth Justice Division will continue this change and diversification in recent years. There are Government’s focus on meeting the needs of children now many holidays available which look like packages and young people in the youth justice system and will but do not fall under the legal definition and so are not deliver the main functions of the YJB—overseeing the protected under the ATOL scheme. delivery of youth justice services, identifying and There is a strong case for reforming the scheme to disseminating effective practice, commissioning a distinct better reflect today’s holiday market so that consumers secure estate and placing young people in custody. can be clear when their holiday is protected, allowing The Youth Justice Division will be a dedicated part of them to understand and use their legal rights. In addition, the MoJ and will sit outside of the National Offender the scheme has operated with a deficit for some years Management Service. It will ensure that the commissioning and is supported by taxpayers through a Government 29WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS guarantee. The reforms should put the ATOL scheme access to the network. The present draft directive modifies on the path to financial self-sustainability, with a view the three 2001 directives. The presidency tabled a to ending the need for taxpayer support. compromise text which was slightly amended at the The consultation document sets out the details of the Council. The presidency then concluded that there was “in principle” decisions I announced on 3 February, a qualified majority for a general approach. The text of Official Report, columns 56-57WS. These were: the general approach is acceptable to the UK. Extending the ATOL scheme to flight-plus holidays comprising The Council also reached a general approach on the a flight and other component bought within two successive draft regulation amending Regulation 1406/2002, which days; established the European Maritime Safety Agency. This That everyone booking a ATOL protected package holiday amending regulation modifies and extends the tasks of or flight-plus will get a recognisable “ATOL certificate” the agency to bring them in line with recent international confirming their rights under the scheme for refunds and and EU developments in the maritime safety field. I set repatriation should their travel company fail; out the UK’s opposition to any staff or administrative Helping ensure that “agent for the consumer” businesses cost increases for the agency, and was able to accept arranging holidays are fully aware of their legal responsibilities revised wording on agency resources, which addressed to consumers. our concerns. It contains the draft secondary legislation needed to implement the first two measures. The Council debated the European Commission’s recent White Paper, “Roadmap to a Single European This is an important first step towards reforming the Transport Area—Towards a competitive and resource ATOL scheme. These reforms will address a major area efficient transport system”, which was issued in March. of uncertainty for consumers when buying holidays The Council debate centred on a number of questions from tour operators and travel agents. The additional put by the presidency. ATOL protection contributions at £2.50 per booking should help the scheme become financially self-sustaining The White Paper aims to increase the sustainability within three years. and competitiveness of the sector while moving towards a fully integrated transport network. In doing so, the Importantly, the reforms pave the way for further Commission aims to cut carbon emissions from transport potential change to the ATOL scheme in the medium to by 60% by 2050 (compared to 1990 levels). Member longer-term. Once the scheme’s deficit has been paid off states broadly agreed that the transport sector has to and the guarantee withdrawn, there is an opportunity make an adequate contribution to the achievement of to consider how funding repatriations and refunds might the medium and long-term climate change targets. I best be arranged in today’s market. The consultation explained that, while supporting the broad thrust of the seeks initial views on this, to inform more detailed work 10 goals in the White Paper, the UK has some concerns to be undertaken by the Civil Aviation Authority later on the detail. in the year and into 2012. We are not in favour of having targets for their own The consultation also asks stakeholders about bringing sake, and do not think that it is practical or desirable to holiday sales by airlines and those arranged on an have a multiplicity of goals and targets. Furthermore, “agent for the consumer” basis into the scheme. These we do not support sector specific targets, which would would require new primary legislation. The Bill to reform constrain our progress on carbon reduction within the airport economic regulation could provide a vehicle to economy as a whole. Wherever targets are set, we believe make the necessary changes if the Government decide that they must be realistic and supported by robust to go ahead with these further reforms. Decisions on evidence and cost impact analysis. I also joined others reforms needing new primary legislation are planned in proposing that we work internationally to negotiate for the autumn and may also need to take account of similar commitments with all of the global partners, in work under way by the European Commission on the the framework of international organisations. future of the package travel directive. The consultation closes on 15 September 2011. My I stressed that the EU should focus on actions that aim is to announce decisions in the autumn on the way need to be undertaken at EU level, and where there was forward on the reforms dependent on new secondary no such case, it should be left to member states and legislation. Subject to consultation responses, the intention local authorities to act. I also welcomed, with support is for the reforms to come into effect on 1 January 2012, from some other Ministers, the Commission’s commitment so consumers have the benefit of the additional protection to undertake thorough impact assessments for any actions. from their summer 2012 holidays. I urged the Commission to consider the importance of reducing the overall burden of regulation, to help our Copies of the consultation document are available businesses and the budgetary constraints that we all from the Department’s website, www.dft.gov.uk. face, as it takes forward the White Paper proposals. Council conclusions were adopted on EU inland EU Transport Council waterway transport, inviting the Commission to launch a project to continue support for an existing inland waterway programme, which is designed to encourage The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond): modal shift of freight from road to inland waterways, I attended the second Transport Council of the Hungarian and to bring forward proposals for a follow-on programme. presidency in Luxembourg on 16 June. The conclusions are acceptable to the UK. The Council reached a general approach on a directive The Council adopted a decision on the signing and which recasts the 2001 first rail package. The 2001 conclusion of an agreement with the Intergovernmental legislation set the initial framework for a single European Organisation for International Carriage by Rail on the rail market, setting out principles for charging and EU accession to the convention concerning International 31WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS

Carriage by Rail (COTIF) of 9 May 1980, as amended also put down a parliamentary scrutiny reserve. The by the Vilnius protocol of 3 June 1999. The decision is presidency noted that a general approach could be acceptable to the UK. adopted, and recalled reserves from some member states. The Council adopted two decisions in the area of The second discussion focused on demographic change aviation external relations, both of which were acceptable and effective family policies. A number of member to the UK. states intervened, stressing the importance of providing The first decision authorised the Commission to open support for parents in the workplace to ensure they negotiations with Moldova on a comprehensive air could reconcile work and family life, for example through transport agreement. flexible working opportunities, prevention of gender The second was a decision on the signature of an air stereotyping, and proper enforcement of equal treatment transport agreement between the EU and Brazil. Ministers legislation. The Commission also thought that this should pre-signed the agreement in the margins of the Council. be a priority issue. Among AOB items, the Commission reported on air There were three progress reports. On the pregnant cargo security work which has been carried out in workers directive, the Commission acknowledged it would pursuit of the action plan endorsed by Ministers at the be difficult for member states to accept the European December 2010 JHA and Transport Councils. They Parliament amendments and proposed going forward were disappointed that a proposal to strengthen EU on the basis of a “passerelle” clause. There was very inbound air cargo security had been narrowly defeated little support for this and I along with some other in the June Regulatory Committee, and called on Ministers member states warned against progressing towards a from member states which voted against or abstained to common position. On the co-ordination of social security rethink their position, I joined Germany in expressing systems, I tabled a minute statement together with strong support for the Commission, and called for work 12 other member states, on the relationship between the to continue on the proposal. social security co-ordination regulation and the free Also under AOB, the Commission reported on work movement directive. This stressed the importance of to deal with the impact of volcanic ash on the EU achieving a clear and coherent understanding of the aviation sector and on recent developments in implementing relationship between the two at the European level, and the Single European Sky. On volcanic ash, I underlined suggested that amendments to the current legislative the importance of developing the existing methodology framework could be needed to achieve this. On the and modelling, and increasing pressure on equipment equal treatment directive, the presidency reported progress manufacturers for engine tolerance levels. on its examination of the proposal based on a questionnaire In the margins of the Council, I met Ministers from focusing on national legislation. France, Germany, Ireland and the Netherlands to discuss Three sets of Council conclusions were adopted. the work on volcanic ash. In a separate discussion, I These were on promoting youth employment to achieve exchanged views on better regulation with the Netherlands the Europe 2020 objectives, reconciling work and family Minister. life in the context of demographic change, and tackling The UK abstained on one item on the A point list, child poverty and promoting child well-being. namely the adoption of a Council decision on the Under any other business, the Hungarian presidency conclusion of a memorandum of co-operation between reported on conferences they have hosted and provided the EU and the International Civil Aviation Organisation information on social and employment related aspects (ICAO). This reflects our general need to be vigilant of the legal migration directives. The Commission reported regarding the balance between member states’ and EU on the United Nations convention on the rights of competence in UN bodies and other international people with disabilities and also presented a new proposal organisations. amending the existing electromagnetic fields directive. The Cypriot delegation provided information on the forum on the future of democracy. The French delegation WORK AND PENSIONS introduced their G20 priorities for social and employment. The incoming Polish presidency presented their presidency Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer priorities. Affairs Council: 17 June 2011

The Minister of State, Department for Work and Community Care Grants and Crisis Loans Pensions (Chris Grayling): The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council met on 17 June 2011 in Luxembourg. I represented the United Kingdom. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb): Today we are publishing the In the first discussion on country specific Government’s response to the call for evidence on how recommendations (CSRs), the Commission recalled that the new locally based service to replace assistance currently its annual growth survey had shown that recovery was given through community care grants and some crisis under way, but it was uneven and could be reversed. loans should be delivered. Without fundamental reforms, any progress remained on shaky ground. The CSRs were an integral part of the We received responses from an array of organisations, Europe 2020 strategy and gave an in-depth analysis of many providing thoughtful and constructive contributions the reforms needed in each member state. They were a that will support the development of the new local tool for improving economic reform without infringing services. on member state sovereignty. For the UK, I highlighted This initial body of evidence is an important building the difficulties linked to the time frame and process and block in the reform process and will help to direct our stressed that this should be improved in future years. I thinking during the next stages of the planning process. 33WS Written Ministerial Statements23 JUNE 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

The Government response captures the key issues and communities to develop and deliver local services tailored themes that have emerged and sets out our response. It to meet the needs of their most vulnerable members and also includes new information about the current scheme challenges local service providers to design innovative that has not previously been published that will help and creative schemes. local authorities in developing their plans, including for The successful delivery of new services will be through the first time local authority level social fund data. strong partnerships between central and local government, This is an important change in the way that welfare community groups, charities and individuals. services are framed and delivered. It goes to the heart of The publication of this report is a key development in localism and the big society agenda. It empowers local this process.

377W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 378W

invoices have been received for payment for such services. Written Answers to It is not possible separately to identify invoices that may involve a Tier 1 supplier without incurring disproportionate Questions cost but during the period in question the CPS processed a total of 229,088 payments to suppliers and service providers, 85% of which were paid within 30 days. Thursday 23 June 2011 The SFO does not have any contracts that fall within the terms of the Fair Payment guidance and the majority of their suppliers do not sub contract the work to others. It is not possible to separately identify which HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION invoices may involve a Tier 1 supplier without incurring Parliament’s Education Service disproportionate cost. During the period in question, the SFO processed a total of 7,126 payments to general suppliers and service providers, 93% of which were paid Simon Hart: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, within 30 days. Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission, how many schools from (a) Carmarthenshire and (b) Pembrokeshire visited the Palace of Westminster through the Parliamentary Education EDUCATION Service in each year since 2009. [61549] Children: Day Care John Thurso: The number of schools from Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire visiting the Palace of Westminster through Parliament’s Education Service Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for in each year since 2009 is as follows: Education what his Department’s policy is on providing support for childcare costs for parents aged Carmarthenshire Pembrokeshire under 20 to allow them to undertake (a) full or (b) part-time study. [59417] 2009 5 1 2010 1 1 Mr Gibb: In 2011/12 the Care to Learn scheme will 2011 (to date) 1 1 provide assistance for child care and related transport 2011 (future 41costs to enable young parents under 20 with responsibility bookings) for caring for their child to attend education or training. The scheme provides support of up to £160 a week The total number of students visiting the Palace of (£175 in London). Child care costs are paid direct to the Westminster on these visits (including future bookings provider of child care. for 2011) is 513. The Department for Education (DfE) is committed to continuing the Care to Learn scheme for young parents. Learner support for young people aged 19 and ATTORNEY-GENERAL over at the start of their course is generally provided by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, Departmental Billing and officials from the two Departments are working together to consider how best to support parents aged Gordon Banks: To ask the Attorney-General how 19 and over beyond the 2011/12 academic year. many invoices the Law Officers’ Departments received in respect of goods or services supplied by tier 1 suppliers Secondary Education: Kingston upon Thames between 1 May 2010 and 1 April 2011; and how many of those invoices were not paid within the period of Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for time specified in the Government’s Fair Payment guidance. Education when he plans to determine the capital [55875] allocation for a new secondary school in North Kingston for the period from 2012-13 to 2014-15. The Attorney-General: The Treasury Solicitor’s [58619] Department (TSol) does not keep separate records for payment performance related to construction industry Mr Gibb: In December, the Secretary of State for suppliers, and such information could be obtained only Education, my right hon. Friend the Member for Surrey at disproportionate cost. The total number of invoices Heath (Michael Gove), informed every relevant local received from all “tier 1 suppliers” (ie organisations authority of its full share of DfE capital funding for supplying goods or services directly to the Department) 2011-12. The Department has not retained any reserves from 1 May 2010 to 31 March 2011 was 34,692. The for responding to individual applications from schools Department paid 87% in 30 days. or local authorities. TSol data includes procurement for the Attorney- It is the responsibility of each local authority to General’s Office and the HM Crown Prosecution Services manage the supply for primary and secondary school Inspectorate. places in their area and ensure there are sufficient The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has a limited schools to meet the local need. The Department will requirement for construction services and between 1 May continue to provide capital funding and monitor the 2010 and 1 April 2011 has not undertaken a project situation with local authorities to secure sufficient school requiring a “Fair Payment Charter”, Subsequently no places. 379W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 380W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Olympic Games 2012: Smoking

Arts Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether he has had discussions Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for with the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what progress he Games on the provision of technical support by the has made on plans to increase philanthropic support World Health Organisation for implementation of a for the arts. [61578] tobacco-free policy at the London 2012 Olympics. [61415] Mr Vaizey: We have made good progress in our work to boost philanthropy in the arts. Having set out a Hugh Robertson: Officials in this Department and the 10-point action plan which will guide our work over the Department of Health have discussed our aspiration next four years, the Secretary of State for Culture, for a tobacco-free Games with the London 2012 Organising Olympics, Media and Sport, my right hon. Friend the Committee (LOCOG) on a number of occasions. At Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), will shortly this stage, the role of the World Health Organisation in be launching an £80 million match funding programme supporting this aspiration has not been considered. in partnership with Arts Council England. This will help cultural organisations, large and small, across the Olympic Games 2012: Tickets country to build their supporter base and to fundraise more effectively, including through the development of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for endowments. The Government have published a White Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what proportion Paper on Giving which contained a range of measures of tickets for the London 2012 Olympics he expects to which will boost charitable giving and volunteering be taken up by non-UK residents. [60720] across society. In his Budget the Chancellor announced a strong package of tax measures which will further Hugh Robertson: The Olympic Games and Paralympic incentivise philanthropy, in particular through legacy Games are global events. Of the 8.8 million tickets giving. We have also taken steps to strengthen public available for the Olympic Games, 75% are being made recognition for those who give their time and money to available through the UK application process. 12% of tickets support the cultural life of the nation. are being made available to 205 National Olympic Committees (NOCs) to sell to international sports fans in their countries. Due to EU law, UK residents are Departmental Redundancy entitled to apply for tickets from NOCs within the EU, just as EU residents are entitled to apply for tickets from Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK application. However, over 95% of all applications Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent in the first round of the UK public sales process—and estimate his Department has made of the cost to the of those who were successful—are from the UK. public purse of redundancies in its non-departmental bodies (a) in 2011-12 and (b) over the comprehensive David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for spending review period. [61720] Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what powers the Government has to restrict the use or onward sale by Mr Vaizey: The Department has not made an estimate officials of the government of (a) Libya and (b) Syria of the number of redundancies within its non-departmental of tickets to the London 2012 Olympics allocated to public bodies, either in 2011-12 or over the spending their National Olympic Committee. [61137] review period. Any such decisions will need to be taken by the bodies themselves in the light of their spending Hugh Robertson: Section 31 of the London Olympic review settlement. Games and Paralympic Games Act 2006 makes it a criminal offence to sell a Games ticket in public or in the course of a business, without LOCOG’s authorisation. Diamond Jubilee 2012 “In the course of business” includes anyone who makes a profit or aims to make a profit from the sale. Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Overseas, tickets are allocated to a country’s National Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what events his Olympic Committee which is responsible for distributing Department has planned to mark the Queen’s diamond them within their country. However, every international jubilee in 2012. [61581] visitor is subject to the UK’s immigration controls.

Hugh Robertson: My Department has worked closely Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, with colleagues across Government to launch two civic Olympics, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of honours competitions and create a special diamond 7 June 2011, Official Report, column 140W, on the jubilee bank holiday on 5 June next year. A medal will Olympic Games 2012, how many tickets for the London also be issued to mark the diamond jubilee and the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics have been allocated to Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and schools in Scotland to date. [61317] Sport, my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), will make an announcement Hugh Robertson: Through a levy on high-end prestige shortly. In addition, my Department continues to work ticket packages, the London Organising Committee of in support of the wider programme of events for 2012, the Olympic and Paralympic Games (LOCOG) is funding further details of which are available at: 200,000 “Ticketshare” tickets, which will see 50,000 www.direct.gov.uk/diamondjubilee tickets donated to schools across the UK. 381W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 382W

These tickets will be distributed via schools and colleges would remain open but that we will, from 2011, temporarily that have signed up to LOCOG’s Get Set Network, part suspend our routine training activities in Belize. As a of the official London 2012 Get Set Education Programme. consequence, there is currently no requirement for helicopter Therefore the numbers allocated to Scotland will depend support and UK aviation support will, therefore, cease on the number of schools and colleges that apply by the after the last Infantry exercise scheduled for mid-July. deadline of Friday 16 December 2011. Tickets will be 25 Flight AAC will transfer to the UK, to provide allocated after this point. helicopter support to other military collective training activities. Tourism: Diamond Jubilee 2012 Defence Equipment Mr Ivan Lewis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what estimate he Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for has made of the potential effect on the economy of Defence what expenditure his Department will incur in levels of tourism during the Queen’s diamond jubilee relation to the Defence and Security Equipment celebrations in 2012. [61577] International Exhibition between 13 and 16 September 2011; and which Ministers from his Department plan Hugh Robertson: Through VisitBritain, we are creating to attend the event. [60761] the best ever overseas tourism marketing campaign for Britain, taking advantage of the unique opportunities Mr Gerald Howarth: The Defence and Security in 2012 afforded by the Olympic and Paralympic Games, Equipment International 2011 (DSEi ’11) will be held Her Majesty’s diamond jubilee celebrations and other at the ExCel centre in London from 13 - 16 September major events. The campaign is aiming to deliver an 2011. UK Trade and Investment Defence and Security additional 4 million visitors to the UK and £2 billion Organisation (UKTI DSO) is the Government lead for extra spend over the next four years. this event. The event provides an excellent medium through which to promote UK manufacturing and technological excellence in these sectors and, by inviting DEFENCE overseas customers, offers a valuable opportunity to support economic growth through exports. Costs associated Armed Forces: Languages with hosting official overseas delegations invited by Government to attend DSEi ’11 will be met by the Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence organisers. In support of this event the Ministry of (1) what the average cost per individual is to his Defence (MOD) will be providing two Royal Navy Department of providing French language lessons for ships which will participate as part of the Royal Navy’s (a) RAF, (b) Royal Navy and (c) Army pilots; and if routine military tasking. The MOD will provide a small he will make a statement; [61083] team of military personnel to support UKTI DSO with (2) how many (a) RAF, (b) RoyalNavyand(c) the administrative arrangements for the event, for which Army pilots are receiving French language lessons; and we will meet the staff costs. Programmes of UK Government Ministers are decided nearer to the date of if he will make a statement. [61084] the event and will not be published in advance of its Nick Harvey: Currently four pilots are receiving French taking place. language lessons within the Defence intelligence and Defence: Research security centre. The breakdown by service is as follows: RAF: One Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Navy: Three Defence what restrictions he has put in place to limit Army: Nil. the transfer of UK military research and development The cost per individual to the Ministry of Defence to other countries. [61464] for the provision of French language lessons for the RAF, Royal Navy and Army pilots is £7,761 per student. Peter Luff: The British Government actively support the drive for commercial exports with a licensing system Belize: Military Aid that ensures such activity is responsible. Information exchanges between governments are conducted in Dan Jarvis: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence accordance with the provisions of Memoranda of what helicopter support is available to support British Understanding. The Ministry of Defence only enters military training in Belize. [60884] into such arrangements after extensive scrutiny.

Nick Harvey [holding answer 22 June 2011]: 25 Flight Defence: USA Army Air Corps (25 Flight AAC) currently operates three Bell 212 helicopters in support of the British Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for Army Training Support Unit, Belize (BATSUB). This is Defence what steps his Department is taking to however, due to cease this summer. The helicopters are improve defence technology co-operation between the operated by the Army Air Corps under a ‘military UK and US. [61465] registered contractor owned’ basis, and are painted in the Army Air Corps military markings. Peter Luff: The Strategic Defence and Security Review In 2010 the UK Ministry of Defence looked at its use published on 19 October 2010 emphasised that the US of all military bases overseas and, after consultation remains the UK’s primary strategic collaborator. We with the Government of Belize, concluded that BATSUB are currently strengthening our collaborative engagement 383W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 384W with the US by increasing the proportion of our research projects considered by his Department’s Major programme undertaken on a collaborative basis in a Projects Review Board on 13 June 2011. [61300] number of key areas and refocusing activity that would have been undertaken with other nations. We are also Peter Luff: The Secretary of State for Defence, my working with the US on the detailed arrangements right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr required to implement the US-UK Defence Trade Fox), has previously stated his intention to publish a list Co-operation Treaty. The treaty aims to simplify transfer of “projects of concern” as an outcome of the Major arrangements between the US and UK for certain categories Projects Review Board meetings. The purpose of the of technology, when destined for UK and US Government Board is to incentivise better performance in the end-use, and seeks to improve interoperability and the management and delivery of major projects that are delivery of capability to our armed forces. delayed or experiencing serious cost growth. Projects US-UK co-operation on nuclear technology continues will be placed on the list of concern if once reviewed by to be enhanced through the 1958 Mutual Defence the Board they continue to slip or increase in cost and Agreement. fail to provide sufficient confidence in their recovery plan. It is not possible, therefore, to identify any specific Departmental Data Protection “projects of concern” at this early stage in the process or to predict when such a report becomes appropriate. Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he is taking to promote visual data security in his Department; and what training his Departmental Visits Abroad Department provides to its officials in respect of the management of visual data security. [60906] Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what overseas visits he undertook in the last Nick Harvey: The Department’s information security six months; what the (a) country and place visited, (b) policy and guidance makes clear that, protectively marked date, (c) meetings attended during the visit, (d) names information or personal data are not to be handled in of other individuals attending such meetings and (e) circumstances where such information may be overlooked purpose of each meeting was in each case; and if he by unauthorised persons, particularly in public locations. will make a statement. [37793] Staff are advised of technical procedures which can help to protect data security and are required to undertake Dr Fox: The information is being collated. I will write the appropriate training courses on the protection of to the hon. Member as soon as it is available. information. Substantive answer from Liam Fox to Stephen Gilbert: Departmental Public Expenditure I write in reply to your written Parliamentary Question. (37793) I answered on 2 February that the information was being Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for collated and I would write to you as soon as it was available. Defence when he plans to publish the first report on the A full response is as follows.

Date Place, country Meetings Purpose Attendees

2010 June/July 4-7 Singapore and Abu Dhabi Bilateral meetings Defence Diplomacy Representatives from Australia, the People’s Republic of China, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Mongolia, Singapore, and Sri Lanka IISS Shangri-La Security Conference Speaker HMA, DA, PS, SA Conference

10-11 Brussels, Belgium NATO Defence Defence Ministerial HMA, PS, SA Ministerial

29 June-3 July Washington DC and Meetings with U.S. Defence Diplomacy and HMA, DA, PS, SA, MA Tampa, Florida Defense Secretary, key operational briefing congressman, and U.S. CentCom staff

August 7-11 Dubai, Bahrain, Key leader engagements Strategic and operational HMAs, DAs, PS, SA Afghanistan in Kabul, Kandahar and briefing Helmand

September 2-3 Paris, France French Defence Minister Defence Diplomacy DA, PS, SA 10-12 Geneva, Switzerland IISS Global Strategic Speaking engagement International Review Conference representation 385W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 386W

Date Place, country Meetings Purpose Attendees

PS, SA

24-26 Jeddah, Saudi Arabia Key leader engagement Defence Diplomacy HMA, DA, PS, SA

October/November 31-1 Larnaca, Cyprus Briefings from UK Operational briefing CJO, PS, SA personnel 10-11 Oslo, Norway NATO Northern Inaugural meeting Northern Grouping Grouping Ministers Ministers and Officials. Meeting HMA, DA, PS, SA, Hd NEP

13-15 Afghanistan, Oman Remembrance Parade Remembrance HRH Prince William HMA, DA, PS, SA, CJO

19-20 Lisbon, Portugal NATO Summit NATO discussions NATO representatives HMA, PS, SA

22-24 New Delhi, India Defence Research and Development of Representatives of Development UK/India Science and DRDO Organisation (DRDO) Technology relationship Indian Defence Minister Defence Diplomacy Indian Defence Minister, and National Security National Security Adviser Adviser and Indian MOD representatives Vivekenanda Foundation Speaking engagement International audience and media Meeting with EADS and Support to UK industry EADS and BAE Systems BAE Systems representatives HMA, DA, PS, SA, MA

December 2-6 Manama, Bahrain Bilateral meetings Defence Diplomacy. HMA, DA, PS, SA, MA Manama Dialogue Conference Speaker HMA, DA, PS, SA, MA MCC and RN personnel Operational briefing HMA, DA, PS, SA, MA

18-21 Dubai, UAE Bilateral engagement Regional engagement. HMA, DA, PS, SA with UAE key leaders Visit to Al Minhad Operational briefing UK deployed personnel Airbase

2011 January 3-5 Afghanistan Key leader engagements Strategic and operational Meetings with key ISAF, in Kabul, Masar-E- briefing UK and Afghans Sharif, Balk, Kandahar and Helmand. Accompanied by Attorney-General and FCO Minister (Alistair Burt MP) HMA, DA, PS, SA, DOpPol, CJO, MA

13 Paris, France French Defence Minister, Defence Diplomacy DA, PS, SA

16-17 Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Meeting HC of FPDA Defence Diplomacy HC of UK, Australia, countries New Zealand, and Singapore 387W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 388W

Date Place, country Meetings Purpose Attendees

Meetings with Malaysian Defence Diplomacy Malaysian Prime Defence Minister, Home Minister, Defence Affairs Minister, and Minister, Home Affairs Prime Minister Minister, and Malaysian officials Meeting with BAE Support to industry BAE Systems and Systems and Boustead Boustead representatives. Naval Shipyard HC, DA, PS, SA

18-20 Sydney and Adelaide, Australia/UK Ministerial Defence Diplomacy Australian Prime Australia Consultations Minister, Foreign and Defence Ministers and delegations Visits to Defence Science Development of Australian Defence and Technology UK/Australia Science Ministers, Australian Organisation (DSTO) and Technology Secretary of Defence, relationship DSTO officials Australian Meeting with BAE Support to industry Defence Ministers, Systems Australian Secretary of Defence Premier of South Australia, BAE Systems representatives HC, DA, CDS, 2nd PUS, PS, SA

20-22 Auckland, New Zealand Meetings with New Defence Diplomacy New Zealand Defence Zealand Defence and and Foreign Affairs Foreign Affairs Ministers, and Prime Ministers, and Prime Minister. UK Foreign Minister Secretary and delegation, UK Chief of Defence Staff Visit to New Zealand Operational briefing HC, DA, 2nd PUS, PS, Armed Forces SA

24 Ankara, Turkey Meetings with Turkish Defence Diplomacy Turkish Defence Defence Minister, Minister, Commander of Commander of the the Turkish General Turkish General Staff, Staff, and Turkish and Turkish Undersecretary for Undersecretary for Defence Industries Defence Industries HMA, DA, UK Commander Field Army, Hd UKTI DSO, PS, SA Key: HMA = Her Majesty’s Ambassador; DA = Defence Attaché/Adviser; PS = Private Secretary; SA = Special Adviser(s) (Policy); CJO = Chief of Joint Operations; MA = Media Adviser; DOpPol = Director Operational Policy; Hd NEP = MOD Head of NATO and European Policy; CDS = Chief of Defence Staff; HC = Her Majesty’s High Commissioner; 2nd PUS = 2nd Permanent Under Secretary; Hd UKTI DSO = Head of UK Trade and Industry Defence Services Organisation.

Falkland Islands: Military Aircraft HMS Endurance

Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence in how many quick reaction alert activations what the cost was of repairs to HMS Endurance in which have taken place on the Falkland Islands since each of the last five years; and if he will make a May 2010 (a) only one aircraft and (b) no aircraft statement. [61291] became airborne. [61161] Peter Luff: The amounts spent by the Ministry of Nick Harvey [holding answer 21 June 2011]: A single Defence in maintaining or repairing HMS Endurance Typhoon has been launched in every quick reaction during the last five years are shown in the following alert activation over the last 12 months. table: 389W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 390W

Operation ELLAMY Financial year Amount (£ million) The UK’s contribution to NATO forces enforcing UN 2006-071 3.2 Resolution 1973 to protect civilians in Libya. 1 2007-08 2.3 Landing platform helicopter 2008-092 2.1 HMS Ocean 2009-103 0.5 2010-11 0 RFA 1 Cost of routine maintenance which includes refits and repairing RFA Fort Rosalie—Replenishment ship worn or damaged Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR equipment. 2 Cost of routine maintenance plus repair costs following the accident. NATO forces enforcing UN Resolution 1973 to protect 3 Cost of removing equipment, cleaning and conducting a survey. civilians in Libya. Type 42 Unmanned Air Vehicles HMS Liverpool MCMV Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence HMS Brocklesby what his policy is on the use of Predator drones. Responsive Force Task Group [61128] Capacity building and support to operations East of Suez. Nick Harvey: MQ-9 Reaper (also known as Predator Landing platform dock and Fleet flagship B) is the UK’s only armed remotely piloted aircraft system. It plays a vital role supporting military operations HMS Albion in Afghanistan where it is operated under the command Type 23 of the NATO International Security and Assistance HMS Sutherland Force. Reaper crews comply fully with the air traffic RFAs procedures in force within their designated Afghan RFA Cardigan Bay—Landing ship dock airspace; operate under the principles of International RFA Wave Knight—Fleet tanker Humanitarian Law (also known as the Law of Armed Conflict); and any release of weapons is in accordance Gibraltar Patrol with the same UK rules of engagement as conventionally The security of Gibraltar territorial seas. piloted UK combat aircraft operating in Afghanistan. Patrol boats HMS Sabre Warships: Deployment HMS Scimitar Atlantic Patrol Tasking (North) Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many ships by type are deployed on The UK’s maritime contribution to the Caribbean and North Atlantic area. Protection of UK interests, current operations or exercises. [60531] humanitarian role in response to the natural disasters, especially hurricanes, which are prevalent in this region. Nick Harvey: As of 16 June 2011, the ships of each type deployed on operations are as follows. RFA Middle East deployments RFA Wave Ruler—Fleet tanker Atlantic Patrol Tasking (South Type 23s HMS Iron Duke The standing naval commitment to the South Atlantic and West African regions. Provide a maritime presence HMS Monmouth to protect the British sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, Mine Counter Measures Vessels (MCMV) including South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands HMS Grimsby and UK’s interests in the region. HMS Chiddingfold Type 42 HMS Pembroke HMS Edinburgh HMS Middleton RFA Royal Fleet Auxiliaries (RFAs) RFA Black Rover—Small fleet tanker RFA Lyme Bay—Landing ship dock Falkland Island Patrol Ship RFA Diligence—Forward repair ship Permanently stationed in the region, responsible for RFA Fort Victoria—Replenishment ship maintaining British sovereignty of the Falkland Islands, Survey Vessel including South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands. HMS Echo Offshore patrol vessel (helicopter) Operation ATALANTA HMS Clyde EU counter-piracy and counter-smuggling operations Fishery Protection within the Arabian Sea, Gulf of Aden, and Indian Patrolling UK’s extended Fisheries Zone. Ocean. River Class offshore patrol vessel Type 23 HMS Tyne HMS Richmond HMS Severn 391W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 392W

HMS Mersey Diana Johnson: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, Survey operations representing the Church Commissioners, what average Survey operations throughout the world using the latest time elapsed between the announcement of the appointment techniques to provide information for Admiralty charts and the consecration of suffragan bishops in the latest and nautical publications and in particular updating period for which figures are available; what the period the charts covering the waters around the United Kingdom. was in respect of the two provincial episcopal visitors who were recently appointed; and if he will make a Her Majesty’s Survey Motor Launch statement. [61013] HMS Gleaner UK Contingency operations Tony Baldry: The table gives the period, in days, Royal Navy maritime security units at readiness to react between the announcement of the appointments and to any possible threat to the integrity of UK territorial the consecration dates in relation to 10 recent vacancies seas and security of the UK. in suffragan sees and the two recent provincial episcopal visitor appointments: Type 23s HMS Portland Average time taken Actual time taken HMS Westminster Suffragans 79 — HMS Montrose PEVs — 42 Type 45 HMS Daring Church of England MCMV HMS Hurworth Diana Johnson: To ask the hon. Member for RFA Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, RFA Orangeleaf—Support tanker. what the ratio is of Church of England parishes which In addition Type 45 Destroyer HMS Dauntless is have passed Resolution C to provincial episcopal exercising with French, US and Russian naval units as visitors. [61014] part of an annual exercise. Tony Baldry: The 2010 figures show that out of 12,614 parishes 363 parishes had petitioned for extended episcopal oversight, 802 had passed resolution A (under which a woman may not preside at Holy Communion) CHURCH COMMISSIONERS and 966 resolution B (under which a woman may not be incumbent of the parish). Under the Act of Synod the Bishops: Public Appointments three provincial episcopal visitors have a spokesman and advisory role in relation to all those unable to Diana Johnson: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, receive the ministry of women priests as well as a direct representing the Church Commissioners, what the average oversight role for many of the 363 parishes who have length of time between announcing the retirement or petitioned for extended Episcopal oversight. For some resignation of a bishop and announcing the successor of the 363 parishes oversight is provided by diocesan or was in the latest period for which figures are available; other suffragan bishops who do not ordain women. what the period was in respect of the two provincial episcopal visitors who were recently appointed; and if Church of England: Bishops he will make a statement. [61012] Diana Johnson: To ask the hon. Member for Tony Baldry: There are several factors which affect Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, the period taken to fill an episcopal vacancy, the principal what the ratio is of Church of England parishes to ones being the amount of notice, if any, that a bishop serving bishops. [61015] gives of his intention to leave office and, in the case of diocesan sees, the number of vacancies with which the Tony Baldry: The most recent figures (2009) show Crown Nominations Commission is already dealing. that in the 43 dioceses of England and the Isle of Man Because of a peak of diocesan vacancies over the past there were 12,614 parishes and 110 bishops, of whom three years the length of diocesan vacancies has been 43 were diocesan bishops. This gives a ratio of 115 parishes unusually long. per bishop, though the actual ratio varies significantly The following table contains data in respect of eight between dioceses. recent vacancies for diocesan sees, 10 for suffragan sees, and two (which occurred at the same time as each other) Churches: Visits for the suffragan sees occupied by provincial episcopal visitors. All answers are in days and are for the period Diana Johnson: To ask the hon. Member for between the announcement of the intention to leave Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, office and the announcement of the appointment. what limits there are on any structures that provincial episcopal visitors are permitted to establish. [61016] Average time taken Actual time taken

Suffragan 233 — Tony Baldry: Provincial episcopal visitors are suffragan Diocesan 395 — bishops within the dioceses of Canterbury and York PEVs — 178 and have no authority to establish any structures separate from those of their dioceses. 393W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 394W

CABINET OFFICE Estimates of regional employment for the UK public sector are published on a quarterly basis by the Office for National Statistics. The latest date for which information is available is Crown Relocations March 2011. The requested data are as follows: Keith Vaz: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many contracts his Department holds with Crown Table 1: Regional public sector employment rates: by country of workplace1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Relocations; and what the (a) purpose and (b) Percentage of total employment monetary value of each such contract is. [58634] Northern England Scotland Wales Ireland Mr Maude: The Cabinet Office does not hold any contracts with Crown Relocations according to the 2011 Q1 20.3 25.0 26.1 29.7 records available. 1 Rates based on total employment that includes overseas employees, those who did not state their region of workplace when surveyed as part of the Labour Force Survey and approximately 40,000 public My Civil Service Pension sector employees that could not be assigned to a region. 2 Estimates are based on where people are employed. Mrs Glindon: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 3 Public Sector employment estimates for Scotland Q1 2011 will be revised on 28 June and included in the Scottish Government publication: Office (1) what consultation he had with staff Public Sector Employment in Scotland. This revision will take account employed in My Civil Service Pension (MyCSP) on the of revised NHS headcount figures (based on a new improved proposed mutualisation of MyCSP; and if he will methodology). Further details can be found at publish the outcome of the consultation; [61632] http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Labour- Market/PublicSectorEmployment (2) what representations he has received from Civil 4 Estimates for Northern Ireland will differ to those published by Service staff on the proposed reform of My Civil DFPNI. The ONS figures include HM Forces Personnel. Service Pension; [61633] 5 Estimates of employment for Q1 2011 include 15,000 temporary staff employed to undertake the 2011 Census. (3) what governance arrangements for My Civil Source: Service Pension have been drafted ahead of its planned Office for National Statistics mutualisation; and whether (a) the public, (b) MyCSP staff and (c) trade unions are to be consulted on such Wales governance arrangements. [61755] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Maude: MyCSP is keen to transform its business Office whether he received a request from (a) Members into an innovative mutual joint venture that offers of the Welsh Government or (b) the Secretary of State extensive benefits to employees, customers and the for Wales between 6 May and 20 May 2011 to meet to Government. The Government support this endeavour. discuss issues relating to affairs in Wales that are within Extensive consultation with the employees of MyCSP his responsibilities. [57465] has been carried out, led by the CEO, including face to face, written and telephone communications. Trade unions Mr Maude: I received no such requests. have been consulted and I have met with them personally. There has been very strong interest from employees; naturally some have concerns and are eager to find out PRIME MINISTER more about what the changes will mean in practice, but Legal Advice: Armed Forces there is a great deal of recognition among employees of the fact that mutualisation offers substantial benefits. Mr Meacher: To ask the Prime Minister if he will Elections are already under way for employees to sit publish in full the legal advice he obtained before the on the Employee Partnership Council. This body will commencement of military action in Libya. [61690] strengthen the voice of employees and involve them directly in the running of the company. The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) on 16 June 2011, Public Sector: Manpower Official Report, column 885W. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what proportion of the working population in WOMEN AND EQUALITIES (a) England, (b) Scotland, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland was employed by the public sector in the latest Females: Mass Media period for which figures are available. [61803] Claire Perry: To ask the Minister for Women and Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the Equalities what steps she is taking in relation to the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have representation of body images of women in the media. asked the authority to reply. [61544] Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated June 2011: Lynne Featherstone: I have established an expert group As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I to work with me, and representatives from relevant have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question asking what proportion of the working population in (a) England, (b) industries and the voluntary sector, to help reduce the Scotland, (c) Wales and (d) Northern Ireland were employed by pressure the media places on an individual’s body image. the public sector in the latest period for which figures are available People are being set an impossible standard by the (61803). images they see. 395W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 396W

I am also working with Media Smart, a not-for-profit Chris Grayling [holding answer 9 June 2011]: The media literacy provider to create a lesson for primary information requested is not available. The Department schools that will give children the tools and techniques does not produce forecasts of claims received by payment to understand and critically appraise what they see in type. the media. The following table provides the forecast total number of claims received for employment and support allowance.

ESA claims received forecast NORTHERN IRELAND (thousand)

Charities: VAT 2011-12 722 2012-13 720 Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for 2013-14 719 Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the 2014-15 709 Chancellor of the Exchequer on the payment of value 2015-16 710 added tax by charities in Northern Ireland. [62215] Hewlett Packard Mr Paterson: I have had no such discussions as I have no ministerial responsibility for these areas. Tax is the responsibility of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, my Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Work right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), and Pensions what recent discussions he has had with and charities policy and legislation in Northern Ireland representatives of (a) Hewlett Packard and (b) trade is the responsibility of the Minister for Social Development. unions on the application of Hewlett Packard to offshore elements of the Adams 2 contract it holds Royal Irish Regiment: Parades with his Department; and when he expects to reach a decision on this application. [61582] Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (1) how many representations he has Chris Grayling: The Department’s existing contract received on the decision by the Ministry of Defence not for IT services with HP already makes provision for the to permit a homecoming parade for the Royal Irish delivery of services from non-UK locations. Ministers Regiment in Belfast; [60629] are reviewing existing plans to increase the amount of work delivered this way. (2) what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Defence on homecoming parades for the Royal Irish Regiment in Northern Ireland. Jobcentre Plus: Travel [60659] Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paterson: I have received a number of both written Work and Pensions whether he took into consideration and verbal representations and as such have had a the ability of employees of the Industrial Injuries number of conversations with the Secretary of State for Disablement Benefit Office within Hartlepool Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Jobcentre Plus to travel to other Jobcentre Plus offices Somerset (Dr Fox). by public transport prior to his decision to close that office. [61701] Secondment Chris Grayling: The administration of Jobcentre Plus Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for is a matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Northern Ireland how many people were seconded Darra Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. from his Department to the Northern Ireland civil Member with the information requested. service in each year since 2007. [62214] Letter from Darra Singh: The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Mr Paterson: Comparable figures for the Department asking whether he took into consideration the ability of employees as it is now configured following the completion of of the Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit (IIDB) Office devolution of policing and justice functions on 12 April within Hartlepool Jobcentre Plus to travel to other Jobcentre Plus 2010 are not available. offices by public transport prior to his decision to close that office. This falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as There are currently eight staff seconded from my Chief Executive of Jobcentre Plus. Department to the Northern Ireland civil service. In deciding which sites to close in rationalising our estate, Jobcentre Plus used a balance of criteria of: performance; cost; size (sites under 200 seats being less cost effective) ; staff redeployment opportunities and impact on the local economy/community (including WORK AND PENSIONS seeking to avoid areas where other public sector staff reductions may take place). In addition a full Equality Impact Assessment Employment and Support Allowance was conducted and a site specific one for each site selected. Disability, gender, race, age, gender reassignment, religion or Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for belief, sexual orientation and pregnancy and maternity were all considered. This ensured that all of the issues and potential Work and Pensions how many applications for impacts were exposed and mitigated. The results of the Hartlepool contributory Employment and Support Allowance he IIDB office Equality Impact Assessment were included within the expects for each financial year from 2011-12 to equally weighted and balanced set of criteria that was used by 2015-16. [58461] Jobcentre Plus to inform decision making. 397W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 398W

Therefore I can confirm that the redeployment potential of the Older Workers Hartlepool staff was one of the factors considered when deciding whether to close the site. Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for Every member of staff at Hartlepool IIDB centre will be offered a job elsewhere in Jobcentre Plus. There may also be Work and Pensions if he will take steps to integrate additional opportunities for redeployment into other Civil Service into his Department’s policies the objectives of the posts outside of this Department. Help with travel to get to an 2012 European Year on Active Ageing. [61780] alternative workplace will be given. Redeployment to Stockton and Sunderland Benefit Centres, Middlesbrough Contact Centre Steve Webb: The European Year for Active Ageing and the Jobcentres at Hartlepool, Billingham, Stockton, and Solidarity between Generations challenges member Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Eston, Redcar, Darlington and states to improve opportunities for active ageing in Middlesbrough East are being given due consideration. general and for living independently, acting in areas as All staff at Hartlepool are being engaged by their managers in diverse as employment, health care, social services, adult frequent one to one discussions. This is the opportunity for staff learning, volunteering, housing, IT services or transport. to explore their options and access the full range of support offered by Jobcentre Plus under departmental workforce management DWP is already working with other Government and equality policies. All available options will be considered, Departments, local government, the voluntary and including relocation, redeployment and reasonable adjustments. community sector, other stakeholders and citizens to Trade Union representatives are being kept informed and are address these challenges, support the development of available for staff to consult about their particular circumstances. practical local solutions and promote the learning from Maternity Pay this work.

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Pathways to Work: Redundancy and Pensions what his Department’s policy for staff is in respect of (a) eligibility criteria and (b) rates of pay Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for (i) maternity and (ii) adoption leave. [61792] and Pensions how many people previously employed on Pathways to Work were made redundant in each of Chris Grayling: The Department for Work and Pensions the last 12 months; and how many such people had offers all employees access to enhanced provisions on disabilities. [61583] maternity and adoption leave. For those employees with the appropriate level of qualifying service it also exceeds Chris Grayling: Information on the number of people statutory minimum payments. who were previously employed on Pathways to Work Maternity Leave and Pay who were made redundant is not collected. Regardless of length of service or hours worked, The advent of the Work Programme has raised questions employees are entitled to unpaid Departmental Maternity about the rights of staff working on previous employment Leave of 52 weeks. programmes, such as Pathways to Work, to transfer to the new contractors under TUPE (the Transfer of Employees who have completed 26 weeks continuous Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations service by the 15th week before the Expected Week of 2006). This is a complex transition, with large numbers Childbirth are entitled to 39 weeks Statutory Maternity of contracts coming to an end and being replaced by a Pay, which is six weeks at 90% of pay, followed by smaller number of larger contracts. 33 weeks at Statutory Maternity Pay level. While DWP understood the concerns of people involved Employees who have completed more than one year’s in the Pathways to Work contracts, the support available paid service (including temporary service) within the through Jobcentre Plus and Work Programme represents Civil Service when their maternity leave starts may be a clean break from previous work initiatives and cannot eligible, for 26 weeks Departmental Maternity Pay (DMP) therefore be seen as a continuation of Pathways to Work. paid at their normal rate of pay, followed by 13 weeks Staff working for Pathways to Work providers were Statutory Maternity Pay and a further 13 weeks Unpaid therefore not eligible for TUPE transfer to Jobcentre Plus. Maternity Leave. Official statistics are routinely published for employment Adoption Leave and Pay programmes such as Pathways to Work. Official statistics Regardless of length of service or hours worked, on Pathways to Work starts and job entries are available employees are entitled to unpaid Departmental Adoption up to October 2010, and are published at: Leave of 52 weeks, provided employees adopt through http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/index.php?page= an approved adoption agency. ib_ref_p2w Employees who have completed 26 weeks of service by the placement date and have average weekly earnings Pensions of at least £97 per week before tax, are entitled to 39 weeks of Statutory Adoption Pay, at whichever is the lower of: Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps he plans to take to £124.88 or ensure that members of the public are aware of the 90% of their average weekly earnings. effects on them of auto-enrolment in workplace pension Employees who have completed more than one year’s schemes; and if he will make a statement. [60426] paid service, including temporary service, when their adoption leave starts may be eligible for 26 weeks paid Steve Webb: DWP will proactively communicate the adoption leave at their normal rate of pay followed by reforms to individuals through the media and other 13 weeks Statutory Adoption Pay and a further 13 weeks channels, working in partnership with other organisations of unpaid leave. where appropriate. 399W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 400W

We are also developing a comprehensive set of Crossrail Line information that will be available to individuals who want to know more about the reforms, this will be Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for available via Directgov, supported by a call centre and Transport what estimate he has made of the cost of though partner organisations including the Pensions establishing a Crossrail station at (a) Kensal Green Advisory Service and the Money Advice Service, where and (b) Old Oak Common. [59788] more specialist, independent information about pensions or about financial planning and budgeting is needed. Mrs Villiers: The Crossrail route as defined under the DWP, with the help of the Pensions Regulator and Crossrail Act 2008 does not include a station at Kensal some large employers, is also developing an ‘information Green. toolkit’ so that employers have information available for The Department for Transport has not made an their employees in the workplace. assessment of the cost of an additional Crossrail station We also have a full programme of communications to at Kensal Green. The Royal borough of Kensington employers which will explain the reforms. We will use a and Chelsea have outlined their view of the estimated variety of channels such as the media and business costs to Crossrail sponsors, and Crossrail Limited is websites. The Pensions Regulator is also rolling out a working with sponsors to test these estimates. As part programme of communications and information so that of its proposals for a national high speed rail network, employers understand how to comply with the legislation. HS2 Ltd estimated that the base construction cost of a Crossrail interchange at Old Oak Common would be £570 million (excluding risk).

TRANSPORT Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the Low-carbon Vehicles potential effects on the timetable for the completion of the Crossrail project of adding further stations to the project. [59789] 18. Peter Aldous: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what steps his Department is taking to Mrs Villiers: The Crossrail route as defined under the promote low-carbon vehicles. [61524] Crossrail Act 2008 does not include a station at Kensal Green. The Department for Transport has not undertaken Mr Philip Hammond: The Government have made an assessment of the impact of stations not included on provision of over £400 million for measures to promote the route as defined under the Act on the programme the uptake of ultra-low carbon vehicle technologies. for the completion of Crossrail. These measures include support for consumer incentives, development of recharging infrastructure, and a programme Any change to the scope of Crossrail would have to of research, development work and demonstration work. be approved by the joint sponsors, the Mayor of London Low emission vehicles are also supported by the tax system. and the Secretary of State for Transport. In the first instance, Crossrail Limited would need to assess the Airports potential programme impacts were such a change to be proposed. The impact on Crossrail services would also have to be considered. Adam Afriyie: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what definition his Department uses of the Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for term hub airport. [61466] Transport how many (a) accidents and (b) fatalities in the construction of Crossrail have been recorded. Mrs Villiers: As part of the process of developing a [59790] sustainable framework for UK aviation, the Department for Transport published a scoping document in March Mrs Villiers: There have been no fatalities to date 2011 which provides the following broad definition of a during the construction of Crossrail. There have been hub airport: 12 RIDDOR-reportable accidents (Reporting of Injuries, “A hub airport is used by airlines as the main base for connecting Diseases and Dangerous Occurrences Regulations, 1995) traffic where a significant proportion of passengers transfer between since Crossrail commenced its main delivery phase in flights.” May 2009. Prior to that one reportable accident occurred in February 2008 during the preliminary works stage. Car Odometer Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Leech: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what information his Department holds on Transport what guidance his Department provides on the safety record in constructing Crossrail. [59791] the legitimate circumstances for the replacement of a car odometer. [61702] Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport receives regular information from Crossrail Ltd regarding safety Mike Penning: The Department for Transport does matters. In addition, arrangements are in place to ensure not publish specific guidance. While there is no legal that the Department for Transport is advised if a serious requirement to fit an odometer to a vehicle or for a safety incident occurs. fitted odometer to be in good working order, it is an offence enforceable by trading standards officers if a Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for recorded mileage is knowingly misrepresented to a potential Transport whether he has assessed the merits of establishing purchaser. a Crossrail station at Old Oak Common. [59792] 401W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 402W

Mrs Villiers: An assessment of a Crossrail interchange HS2 Ltd spent £24.1 million (excluding VAT) between has been carried out by HS2 Ltd as part the development January 2009, when it was established, and the end of of its proposals. As set out in the current consultation the 2010-11 financial year. In addition, the Department on high speed rail, the Government consider that there spent £9.6 million on property purchases under the is a strong case for a Crossrail interchange at Old Oak Exceptional Hardship Scheme up to the end of the Common. 2010-11 financial year.

Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport whether he has assessed the merits of establishing Transport what compensation he plans to make available a Crossrail station at Kensal Green. [59793] to home owners living along the proposed High Speed 2 route between Manchester and Leeds. [61207] Mrs Villiers: The Crossrail route as defined under the Crossrail Act 2008 does not include a station at Kensal Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 21 June 2011]: Green. The Department for Transport has not made an No decision has yet been made on discretionary blight assessment of the merits of an additional Crossrail or compensation arrangements for future proposed routes station at Kensal Green, although the Royal borough of between Birmingham and Manchester, and Birmingham Kensington and Chelsea have shared with Crossrail and Leeds. Until the options for routes to Manchester sponsors their view of the merits of this proposal, and and Leeds are known, and the potential effect of blight sponsors are working to test these estimates. considered, it would be premature to decide what support arrangements may need to be put in place. High Speed 2 Railway Line Following publication of those route options the Government would consider, and consult on, the question of whether the approach taken for the first phase of the Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for network would also be effective for lines further north, Transport whether he plans to publish full details of or whether an alternative approach would be more the High Speed2Yroute; and for what reason he has appropriate. not made this information available. [61154] High Speed 2 Railway Line: Lancashire Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 21 June 2011]: Details of options for the routes to Leeds and Manchester, including stations, are currently in preparation. This Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for work is not yet complete and I am, therefore, yet to Transport what assessment he has made of the receive any advice on these routes. potential benefit to Ormskirk and Skelmersdale of the High Speed 2 project. [61567] The timetable we have always been working to is set out in a letter I wrote to HS2 Ltd on 4 October 2010, in which I requested that it complete its advice on routes Mr Philip Hammond: The Department for Transport to Leeds and Manchester by December 2011. This letter has made no estimate specific to Ormskirk and is at: Skelmersdale. However, Table 5 of the “Economic Case for HS2” available on the HS2 consultation website at: http://www.hs2.org.uk/publications/HS2-Ltds-remit-of-4- October-2010--61200 www.highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/library/documents/economic- case My Department’s business plan clearly states that shows that on the basis of trip origins an estimated 23% informal consultation on the options for routes to Leeds of the benefits of the initial London-West Midlands and Manchester will commence in 2012, followed by phase of HS2 would relate to the North West region. formal consultation in 2014. The business plan is at: This would include benefits derived from the two high http://www2.dft.gov.uk/about/publications/business/ speed peak hour services that would run onto Glasgow plan2011-15/ Central and call at Wigan and Preston, as outlined in HS2 Ltd’s indicative modelled service specification. Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for Once the proposed high speed line from Birmingham Transport how much funding (a) his Department and to Manchester is completed, we would expect further (b) other Departments have allocated to planning and economic benefits to accrue to the North West region, preparation for High Speed 2 to 2014-15; how much of including Ormskirk and Skelmersdale. this funding has been spent; and on what activities such funding has been spent. [61155] High Speed 2 Railway Line: Liverpool Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 21 June 2011]: The information requested is provided in the following Esther McVey: To ask the Secretary of State for table. Transport what assessment he has made of the potential economic benefit of High Speed 2 to the Liverpool City Funding allocated to planning and preparation for HS2, 2014-15 region. [57392] £ million Pre 2011-12 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 2014-15 Mr Philip Hammond: The Department for Transport has made no estimate specific to the Liverpool city Resource 21.3 .116.1 163.3 89.4 204.2 region. However, Table 5 of the Economic Case for spending HS2, available on the HS2 consultation website at: Capital 3.1 50 50 50 50 spending http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/library/documents/economic- case 403W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 404W shows that on the basis of trip origins an estimated 23% The research also found that allowing longer semi-trailers of the benefits of the initial London-West Midlands would result in around 100,000 tonnes annual reduction phase of HS2 would relate to the North West region. in CO2 emissions. This would include benefits derived from the two high speed services per hour to Liverpool included in HS2 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Ltd’s modelled service specification. Transport what estimate he has made of the ratio of Once the proposed line form Birmingham to Manchester laden to unladen heavy goods vehicles on UK roads in is completed, we would expect further economic benefits the last 12 months for which figures are available; and to accrue to the North West region, including to the what estimate he has made of the likely ratio following Liverpool City region. any introduction of vehicles over 16.5 metres to the UK. [61334] High Speed Two Mike Penning [holding answer 21 June 2011]: Current Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for load factors for heavy goods vehicles are published in Transport how many meetings he has had with those the Department’s ″Road Freight Statistics″. Figures are with properties affected by the proposed High Speed 2 available for 2009 on the Department’s website. rail route to Manchester and Leeds. [61703] The Government are consulting on proposals to allow Mr Philip Hammond: The options for routes north of an increase in the length of articulated lorries. Research the West Midlands are currently being developed by commissioned by the Department considered a variety HS2 Ltd and are planned to be published in 2012. At of matters that influence loading factors, and sensitivity this stage it is too early to know what properties could tests were conducted to assess the implications. This is potentially be affected. summarised in the main report and the impact assessment with the full detail found in section 4 of the Economic I have met and had discussions with several members Assessment. of the public whose properties are in the vicinity of the proposed route between London and the West Midlands Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of my visits to the line of route before and Transport how many road traffic accidents involving during the current consultation. heavy goods vehicles there were in each of the last 10 Large Goods Vehicles years; how many (a) fatalities and (b) serious injuries arose from such accidents in each such year; and what Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport assessment he has made of the potential effects on the whether EU Directive 96/53/EC on road vehicles will numbers of such incidents of the introduction of heavy restrict use of any articulated vehicle in excess of 16.5 metres goods vehicles over 16.5 metres long. [61335] in length on UK roads to operation on a trial basis only. [61331] Mike Penning [holding answer 21 June 2011]: Reported personal injury road accidents involving a heavy goods Mike Penning [holding answer 21 June 2011]: Article 4.4 vehicle (HGV) and the consequential casualties in Great (b) of Directive 96/53/EC permits a member state to Britain collated by the Department for Transport for allow, in domestic traffic, vehicles which exceed the 2000 to 2009 were as follows: maximum dimensions specified in Annex I (in the case of articulated vehicles, a maximum length of 16.5m), Accidents Casualties provided that the member state also allows vehicles Killed Seriously injured which comply with Annex I dimensions to be used in 2000 13,894 560 2,719 such combinations as to achieve at least the loading 2001 13,631 575 2,564 length of the longer vehicle. If this condition is fulfilled, 2002 12,427 532 2,374 there is no requirement to operate on a trial basis only. 2003 12,205 528 2,111 The Government are consulting on a proposal to 2004 11,542 449 1,884 allow articulated vehicles of 18.75m in total length, 2005 11,162 486 1,785 with a loading length of 15.65m. This is the same 2006 10,466 419 1,700 loading length which is currently provided by Annex I 2007 9,829 435 1,574 compliant rigid/drawbar combinations. 2008 8,415 368 1,344 2009 7,013 268 1,171 Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what assessment he has made of the potential effect on The Department’s research into the potential impacts (a) road safety and (b) levels of carbon emissions of of allowing longer semi-trailers on GB roads found that the operation on UK roads of vehicles over 16.5 metres while there may be an increase in safety risk per vehicle in length. [61333] this is outweighed by a forecast decrease in accidents from running fewer lorries, with an overall net decrease Mike Penning [holding answer 21 June 2011]: The in casualties from accidents involving articulated HGVs Department for Transport’s research into the potential of around 1.6 per cent. impacts of allowing longer semi-trailers on British roads, set out in the impact assessment on longer semi-trailers, London Underground: Industrial Disputes found that while there might be a small increase in safety risk per vehicle, this is outweighed by a forecast Stephen Metcalfe: To ask the Secretary of State for decrease in accidents from running fewer lorries, with Transport if he will bring forward proposals to prevent an overall net decrease in casualties from accidents unplanned industrial action on London Underground. involving articulated HGVs of around 1.6%. [60467] 405W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 406W

Mrs Villiers: Existing legislation already requires trade Railways: Theft unions contemplating industrial action to ballot their membership and give due notice to the employer. Mr Brine: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Government encourages both London Underground what recent meetings officials of his Department have (LU) and the trade unions representing LU employees had with officials of the Home Department on to resolve current disputes as quickly as possible through measures to reduce the incidence of metal theft from negotiation. the railway network. [61030] Railways Norman Baker: Officials from the Department for Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport met recently with Home Office officials to what steps he is taking to increase efficiency on the rail discuss the issue of metal theft and to explore possible network. [61511] options to combat it. I have also discussed the matter with representatives from Network Rail and the Train Mrs Villiers: Sir Roy McNulty published his independent Operating Companies. study on rail value for money last month, setting out Cable theft is a crime which hits the railway particularly recommendations for increasing efficiency on the rail hard and causes levels of disruption out of all proportion network. to the value of the material stolen. That is why the The Department for Transport is working with the British Transport Police are in the forefront of efforts to rail industry and other stakeholders to reduce the cost tackle the problem, working with Network Rail, train of our railways to the taxpayer and the farepayer, operators, other police forces, the scrap metal industry taking full account of Sir Roy’s study, and plans to and others with an interest. publish a detailed policy statement on rail by the end of Methods used to deter and catch the thieves include: November 2011. a dedicated BTP task force with increased patrols, intelligence Railways: Bristol led policing and additional dedicated officers; the use of the Network Rail helicopter, CCTV,forensic marking, Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for trembler alarms and other devices to protect the cable; Transport what recent discussions he has had with the introduction of new type of cable that is easier to identify Bristol county council about the future of the Severn and harder to steal; and Beach Line. [58406] fast response teams to get trains on the move as quickly as possible following an incident. Norman Baker: Bristol city council has discussed with the Department for Transport how the First Great Western franchise agreement works in order to help it Rescue Services better understand options for continuing financial support for additional train services on the Severn Beach line. The terms of the franchise in place require First Great Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for Western to provide a minimum number of services Transport (1) which Coastguard Coordination Centre on the route. buildings are (a) rented and (b) leased from other Railways: Scotland landlords; [61460] (2) which Coastguard Coordination Centre buildings Andrea Leadsom: To ask the Secretary of State for are in public ownership; and what the monetary value Transport what plans he has to extend the proposed of each such building is; [61461] high speed rail link to Scotland; and what recent discussions (3) which rented or leased Coastguard Coordination he has had with the Scottish Executive on this subject. Centre buildings have covenants or restrictions as part [61153] of the terms of the lease or rental agreement; and what the terms of the covenants or restrictions are in each Mr Philip Hammond [holding answer 21 June 2011]: case; [61462] The Government’s aspiration is for a truly national high speed rail network. While there are no detailed (4) which Coastguard Coordination Centre buildings plans at this stage for any extension to Scotland, the in public ownership have covenants or restrictions Government would expect to work, subject to the outcome applicable to any sale; and what the terms of the of the current consultation, with the Scottish Government covenants or restrictions are in each case. [61463] and others to identify and evaluate options for developing the high speed network and reducing journey times Mike Penning: The information requested is in the further going forward. following table.

Covenants Restrictions Monetary applicable applicable value (£) Rented to sale or to sale or Terms of MRCC (net book from other Leased from MOTO terms of terms of covenant/ location value)1 landlords other landlords Publicly owned arrangement lease lease restrictions

Stornoway 849,057 No No Yes — Yes Yes Use of premises Resale option to original owner in first instance 407W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 408W

Covenants Restrictions Monetary applicable applicable value (£) Rented to sale or to sale or Terms of MRCC (net book from other Leased from MOTO terms of terms of covenant/ location value)1 landlords other landlords Publicly owned arrangement lease lease restrictions

Shetland 609,024 No No—Buildings Yes— — Yes Yes Land—Use of Buildings premises on the land which have to be in good order and repair Yes—Land Yes—Land owned by Shetland s Islands Council

Aberdeen — — Yes No — No No —

Clyde — — — — Yes No No —

Forth 334,865 No No Yes — No No —

Humber 359,477 No No Yes — — — —

Yarmouth — — — No Yes No No —

Thames 524,223 No No Yes — No No —

London — Licence No No — — — —

Dover 1,932,556 No No Yes No No

Solent — — Yes No — Yes — Use of premises Repair and maintenance Reinstatement Portland 3,316,628 No No Yes — No No —

Brixham 368,896 No No Yes — No No —

Falmouth 737,744 No No—Buildings Yes— — Yes Yes Land—Use of Buildings premises on the land Reinstatement of land Reassignment at discretion of Landlord Yes—Land Yes—Land owned by Carrick District Council

Swansea 839,037 No No—Buildings Yes— — — — Land—No Buildings reassignment of the land. Buildings on the land must yield up in good and substantial repair Yes—Land Yes—Land owned by Swansea City Council 409W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 410W

Covenants Restrictions Monetary applicable applicable value (£) Rented to sale or to sale or Terms of MRCC (net book from other Leased from MOTO terms of terms of covenant/ location value)1 landlords other landlords Publicly owned arrangement lease lease restrictions

Milford 257,253 No No—Buildings Yes— — — — Land— Haven Buildings Reinstatement of land Reassignment may be possible Yes—Land Yes—Land owned by Milford Haven Port Authority

Holyhead 691,350 No No Yes — — — Use of premises

Liverpool 1,524,244 No No Yes — No No —

Belfast — — Yes No — Yes — Use of premises 1 This is based on the Net Book values as held in the MCA’s accounts as at 31 March 2011 and is based on either a Depreciated Replacement Cost or an Existing Use Value, which ever is the more appropriate. These are updated annually and will differ from market values.

Rescue Services: Closures Mike Penning: The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) do not capture or record fault data in such a Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for way that directly links to impact on the coastguard service, Transport whether any of the coastguard stations nor where such failures may lead to another station considered for closure by the Government are funded being asked to take over part of an operational area. through the private finance initiative. [61586] The MCA do however capture national level data on events classed as ‘grade A’ or ‘priority 1’, these being Mike Penning: No coastguard premises are funded defined as “Total Failure of a Coastguard Operational through the private finance initiative. System”. However, it is not necessarily the case that any or all such faults will have resulted in the transfer of operational duties to another co-ordination centre. Rescue Services: Power Failures Rescue Services: Repairs and Maintenance

Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Transport on how many occasions coastguard how much has been spent on (a) maintenance and (b) co-ordination centres were unable to operate due to (a) planned investment at each Maritime and Coastguard technical and (b) power failures in each of the last five Agency location in Scotland in each of the last five years; for how long services were suspended in each years. [61585] such case; and where co-ordination services were transferred to during each such suspension. [61587] Mike Penning: The information is as follows:

(a) Maintenance spend at each Maritime and Coastguard Agency location in Scotland in each of the last five years Costs (£) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Shetland MRCC 17,056 9,166 20,469 17,044 8,211 Aberdeen MRCC 23,309 6,916 13,664 45,125 103 Forth MRCC 48,090 18,577 32,921 20,541 6,944 Clyde MRCC 99,347 15,244 36,313 9,170 13,764 Stornoway MRCC 89,122 33,815 72,690 14,422 19,102 Total 276,923 83,720 176,057 106,302 48,125 Notes: 1. Costs include: Estate maintenance costs for the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres (MRCC) only. Costs for other MCA estate is not captured. For those sites where a Marine Office and MRCC are co-located, costs are not separable and both are included above. 2. Costs excluded: IGT is managed on a national basis rather than by site and it is not possible to separately identify such costs. MCA support contracts are tendered against a requirement to provide service UK-wide (including Northern Ireland). (b) Planned investment at each Maritime and Coastguard Agency location in Scotland in each of the last five years Costs (£) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

ShetlandMRCC00000 Aberdeen MRCC 343 0 0 50,064 66,587 Forth MRCC 0 0 0 5,264 0 411W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 412W

(b) Planned investment at each Maritime and Coastguard Agency location in Scotland in each of the last five years Costs (£) 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

ClydeMRCC00000 Stornoway MRCC 24,245 0 0 5,264 0 Total 24,588 0 0 60,591 66,587 Notes: 1. Costs include: Capital costs for the Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Centres (MRCC) only. Costs for other MCA estate is not captured. For those sites where a Marine Office and MRCC are co-located, costs are not separable and both are included above. 2. Costs excluded: ICT is managed on a national basis rather than by site and it is not possible separately to identify such costs.

Trailers: Safety 2006 and a breach of Article 1 Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human Rights which was Maria Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport incorporated into United Kingdom law by the Human with reference to the longer semi-trailer feasibility study Rights Act 1998. and impact assessment commissioned by his Department, what assessment he has made of the effect of options 4, 5 and 6 proposed in the consultation on (a) tail swings Environment Protection at roundabouts, (b) susceptibility to cross-winds and (c) safety in the absence of new steering technology. Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for [61330] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to paragraph 2.21 of her Department’s document, The Mike Penning [holding answer 21 June 2011]: The Natural Choice: securing the value of nature, when she Department for Transport commissioned research expects to hold the first annual Ministerial event to concerning the use of high-volume semi-trailers. From bring together local nature and local enterprise partnerships; this research a report by the Transport Research Laboratory and whether she plans to publish a report on the outcome and Cambridge university addresses these questions. of the event. [61219] The report is entitled: “The likely effects of permitting longer semi-trailers in the Richard Benyon: We will start hosting an annual UK: vehicle specification performance and safety” by I Knight, ministerial event for Local Nature Partnerships from T Robinson, B Robinson, T Barlow, I McCrae (TRL) and A Odhams, spring 2012 where the first partnerships will be able to R L Roebuck, C Cheng (Cambridge University) come together to share best practice, highlight delivery A copy of the report has been placed in the Libraries issues and celebrate success. Further updates on the of the House. first event will be available in due course. A brief summary of the event will appear on the DEFRA website.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Agriculture: Regulation Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to the box on a sustainable approach to low-carbon energy Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for on page 23 of her Department’s document, The Natural Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent progress Choice: securing the value of nature, how the Government she has made in reducing the burden of regulation on plans to work with others to establish a research programme farmers. [61547] to fill evidence gaps about the effects on the natural environment of the level of infrastructure needed to Mr Paice: We commissioned the independent Task meet low-carbon energy objectives for 2050. [61220] Force on Farming Regulation which reported on 17 May. I warmly welcome the task force’s report. The Government Richard Benyon: The Government are currently looking are now carefully considering the report’s recommendations, at the best way to take forward this research programme. and will provide an initial public response this autumn We have had initial discussions with the Living with followed by a final response early in 2012. Environmental Change partnership, including some Circuses: Animal Welfare research councils. Given the breadth and inter-disciplinary nature of Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for this research, we would like to involve a mixture of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the participants including the research councils, industry, written ministerial statement of 13 May 2011, Official academia, NGOs and other research institutions. One Report, column 48WS, on performing wild animals, option would be for the programme to act as an “umbrella” what assessment she has made of the compatibility with initiative designed to initiate individual pieces of research European law of any legislative proposal to prohibit the to fill evidence gaps, as well as joining up existing work use of wild animals in circuses. [56473] in this area, towards answering strategic questions about what constitutes a sustainable energy mix. Our aim is to Mr Paice: The very strong legal advice that we have understand the environmental capacity for the deployment received is that a total ban on wild animals in circuses of low carbon energy to 2050 better, and to use that might well be seen as disproportionate measure under to help us understand how to make truly sustainable Article 16 of the European Union Services Directive choices. 413W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 414W

Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment paragraph 3.11 of her Department’s document, The she has made of the resource capacity of local Natural Choice: securing the value of nature, when the government biodiversity officers to participate in Local Government plans to establish an independent Natural Nature Partnerships (LNPs); and what consultation Capital Committee; and what criteria she plans to use her Department undertook with the Association of in making the appointments to that committee. [61221] Local Government Ecologists on the creation of LNPs. [61311] Richard Benyon: We are currently developing a set-up project for the Natural Capital Committee, to be run Richard Benyon: Local Nature Partnerships (LNPs) over the summer. We envisage that the Committee will were requested by many of the organisations responding be set up as an expert committee, rather than as a to the Natural Environment White Paper consultation. non-departmental public body, and the specific status In the White Paper, we commit to encouraging and of the Committee could influence the details of the supporting LNPs where local areas wish to establish appointment procedure. We currently envisage that a them. We have suggested that these may consist of ″non-OCPA″ (Office of the Commissioner on Public people from local authorities, civil society organisations, Appointments) procedure consistent with the OCPA land managers and people in the community, but we are code of practice will be applied. not enforcing the concept or structure. It is for local areas to decide whether an LNP is the appropriate Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for structure to protect and improve the natural environment Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to local to them. In the course of developing the concept paragraph 3.28 of her Department’s document, The of LNPs and producing guidance for the next steps in Natural Choice: securing the value of nature, when the establishing them, we consulted local authorities extensively, Government plans to set up a business-led Ecosystem and visited several to discuss the idea. Markets Task Force; and what criteria she plans to use to make appointments to the task force. [61222] Greenhouse Gas Emissions Richard Benyon: When launching the Natural Environment White Paper we were pleased to announce Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, that Ian Cheshire (CEO of Kingfisher Plc) has accepted Food and Rural Affairs what her Department’s policy is the Secretary of State’s invitation to chair the Ecosystem on the adoption of targets for greenhouse gas emission Markets Task Force. This is an ad hoc group, reporting reductions by large companies. [60988] through the Green Economy Council (a group that has been formed to help business rise to the low-carbon challenge). Task Force members will be selected through Mr Paice: The current DEFRA/DECC guidance to discussion between the chair and Government officials, help organisations measure and report their greenhouse with input from Green Economy Council members. We gas emissions recommends that organisations set a will hold a first meeting after the summer recess. greenhouse gas emission reduction target. This guidance is available at: Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/economy/business- efficiency/reporting/ Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to paragraph 3.39 of her Department’s document, The Natural Choice: securing the value of nature, through Recycling: Bottles which channels she expects the UK to work with the EU Joint Research Council to develop evidence on the environmental effects of products and their supply Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for chains, and to consider future developments in Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) if she will minimum standards under the EU Ecodesign directive. assess the likely effects on levels of recycling of the [61223] introduction of a bottle deposit return scheme; [60928] (2) if she will make a cost-benefit assessment of Richard Benyon: We have already established a close establishing a bottle deposit return scheme. [60929] working relationship with the EU Joint Research Council (JRC) through its participation in the Steering Group for the review of PAS 2050, the UK-developed methodology Richard Benyon: Our waste policy review included an for measuring greenhouse gas emissions across the supply analysis of the costs and benefits of implementing chain. a bottle deposit system, based on the CPRE (Campaign We are continuing to build on our existing effective to Protect Rural England) report “Have we got the bottle?” working relationship with the JRC to ensure that we are Details of the analysis will be published later this year. able to influence developments at EU level in the interests We concluded that although such a scheme could of UK business most constructively. We share reports increase recycling and reduce litter, its estimated running of evidence projects already undertaken, and use these costs are very high, and much higher than alternative as a basis for identifying the scope for collaboration on measures. In view of this, we have decided not to take future projects. Such projects might assess the environmental forward the option of bottle deposit schemes for the impacts of products and their supply chains, and consider time being, and concentrate on other ways to increase future developments in minimum standards. recycling and address litter. 415W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 416W

INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT with Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Education on their potential role in the establishment of an inspection Gambia: Overseas Aid system for private providers of further education in Scotland and hope to make an announcement on this Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for shortly. International Development what priorities his Department has established for its aid to Northern Gambia; and Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for the how much aid it plans to allocate there each year from Home Department on what dates her Department made 2011-12 to 2014-15. [61630] (a) written and (b) oral contact with HM Inspector of Education in Scotland to discuss the inspection of Mr O’Brien: The Department for International private providers of higher and further education; and Development (DFID) has been winding down its bilateral whether any agreement to inspect private providers will aid programme in The Gambia. The recent review of all require primary or secondary legislation. [61037] DFID’s bilateral aid programmes concluded that we should close the Gambia programme in 2011, as UK Damian Green: Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Education aid could have greater impact elsewhere. has been an approved educational oversight body since We will ensure that arrangements are in place to the inception of Tier 4. On 22 March 2011 we announced incorporate and sustain the gains made through UK a tightening of the list of approved bodies to the eight bilateral support as part of other donors’ programming. listed bodies that operate the regulatory framework for The UK will continue to provide financial support to publicly funded providers and independent schools. The Gambia through our increasing share of multilateral Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Education, as the statutory programming. We do not have planned allocations for authority in Scotland, remained an approved inspection the multilateral organisations for The Gambia in future body for Tier 4. financial years, but the information for previous years We are currently working closely with Her Majesty’s can be found on the DFID website. Inspectorate of Education on their potential role in the establishment of an inspection system for private providers Zimbabwe: Overseas Aid of further education in Scotland and hope to announce on this shortly. Oral contact was first made on 4 April Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 and first written contact (via e-mail) was on 12 April International Development what discussions he had 2011. with the government of Zimbabwe prior to deciding on the allocation of aid to that country. [61692] Fixed Penalties Mr Andrew Mitchell: As we developed plans for our programme to Zimbabwe, I held personal discussions Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the with the Prime Minister, Finance Minister and Minister Home Department what guidance her Department has for Education of Zimbabwe. issued to police forces on the issuing of a (a) fixed (b) My officials have regular contact with Zimbabwean penalty notice, non-endorsable fixed penalty notice (c) Ministers and senior officials to ensure the best possible and penalty notice for disorder in the last two coherence with the plans of the Zimbabwe Government. years. [61396] It remains the case that no UK development funds Nick Herbert: The Home Office has not issued such are passed through the Government. All our programmes guidance in the last two years. Guidance on fixed penalties are delivered through trusted partners such as UNICEF, for offences in respect of a vehicle was issued in 2006 the Africa Development Bank and NGO’s. and is currently under review by a working group established by the Association of Chief Police Officers. The penalty notice for disorder (PND) scheme is the HOME DEPARTMENT responsibility of the Ministry of Justice. That Department issued revised operational guidance to police forces on Entry Clearances: Overseas Students 16 July 2009. This restricts the use of PNDs for retail theft and criminal damage to first time offenders who Ann McKechin: To ask the Secretary of State for the are not substance mis-users and where the value of Home Department what timescale she has set for the stolen goods or damage does not exceed £100 (retail establishment in Scotland of an inspection system for theft) or £300 (criminal damage). Further guidance was private providers of higher and further education issued to police forces on 23 July 2009 restricting the use under the student visa scheme. [60921] of PNDs for cannabis possession to first time offenders, as part of the police three-stage escalation enforcement Damian Green: In line with our commitment to ensure procedure for the offence. Guidance was also issued in all privately funded Tier 4 sponsors are inspected by a January 2010 which informed police forces of the revocation publicly recognised authority by the end of 2012, we of the prescribed form of the PND. announced on 13 June that the Quality Assurance Agency and the Independent Schools Inspectorate would Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for the extend their activities to cover privately funded providers. Home Department for which (a) public order offences, The Quality Assurance Agency already inspect Universities (b) traffic offences and (c) other offences a fixed in Scotland and will offer inspections covering privately penalty notice, a non-endorsable fixed penalty notice funded providers of higher education in all parts of the or a penalty notice for disorder may be issued by a UK, including Scotland. We are currently in discussion police officer. [61398] 417W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 418W

Nick Herbert: The Criminal Justice and Police Act Damian Green: The estimated average cost of a judicial 2001 allows a police officer to issue a penalty notice for review up to the permission stage is approximately disorder (PND) for the fixed amount of £80 for the £1,500 to £2,000. Costs post permission can vary offence under section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 of significantly after that according to the complexity of ‘Using words, conduct likely to cause harassment, alarm the case. or distress’. Currently there are 25 other offences available under Immigration: Asylum the PND scheme. A full list of PND offences is as follows. The Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 allows the Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for the police to issue a fixed penalty notice for any offence in Home Department how many applications for judicial respect of a vehicle that has been made a fixed penalty review of decisions made by her Department in respect offence by order of the Secretary of State for the Home of immigration and asylum cases have been initiated in Department. The full list is contained in Schedule 3 to the last 12 months. [61400] the Act. Penalty Notice for Disorder offences Damian Green: Figures for England and Wales from Higher Tier Offences (£80) the Treasury Solicitor show that, in relation to immigration Wasting police time, giving false report and asylum cases, 7,620 judicial reviews were opened over the 12 month period between June 2010 and May Sending false message/persistently use a public electronic communications network in order to cause annoyance, inconvenience 2011. or needless anxiety Knowingly gives a false alarm to a person acting on behalf of Police: Pensions a fire and rescue authority Using words/conduct likely to cause fear of harassment, alarm Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for the or distress Home Department how many police officers working Fire or throw firework(s) in the Calderdale division will be affected by proposed Drunk and disorderly in a public place changes to police pensions. [61385] Destroying or damaging property (under £300 and may only be issued on one occasion) Nick Herbert: As at 31 March 2010, there were 365 Retail Theft (under £100 and may only be issued on one full-time equivalent (FTE) police officers in Calderdale occasion) basic command unit. Individual officers will have differing Breach of fireworks curfew (11 pm to 7 am) personal circumstances, making it impossible to assess Possession of a category 4 firework how many might be affected by any future changes to Possession by a person under 18 of an adult firework in a police pensions. public place Sells or attempts to sell alcohol to a person who is drunk Police: Sonae Supply of alcohol by or on behalf of a club to a person aged under 18 Mr George Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State Sale of alcohol anywhere to a person under 18 for the Home Department (1) what the date was of Buys or attempts to buy alcohol on behalf of person under 18 each occasion on which police officers were called to Buys or attempts to buy alcohol for consumption on relevant the Sonae factory in Kirkby in the last 10 years; and premises by person under 18 what the cost of each such call out was; [61309] Delivery of alcohol to person under 18 or allowing such delivery (2) on what date police investigations into the Sonae Possess a controlled drug of Class B—cannabis/cannabis resin. factory in Kirkby were initiated in the last 10 years; (May only be issued to offenders 18 years or over.) and what the cost was of each such investigation. Lower Tier Offences (£50) [61310] Trespass on a railway Nick Herbert: The Home Office does not collect this Throwing stones/matter/thing at a train or railway information. Operational decisions regarding the Drunk in a highway, other public place or licensed premises deployment of officers and use of resources are matters Consumption of alcohol in designated public place, contrary for the chief constable of the relevant police force. to requirement by constable not to do so Deposit and leave litter Police: South Wales Consumption of alcohol by a person under 18 on relevant premises Allowing consumption of alcohol by a person under 18 on Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for the relevant premises Home Department how much was spent on equipping Buying or Attempting to buy alcohol by a person under 18 police forces in South Wales with Lantern fingerprint devices in the last 12 months. [61548] Immigration Nick Herbert: Within South Wales Gwent police and Simon Hart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Dyfed and Powys police both use the Lantern Service, Home Department what the average cost to the public but South Wales police do not. purse of a judicial review of an immigration decision The cost of providing the Lantern service to these was in the latest period for which figures are available. forces for the past 12 months is £25,071. This has been [61401] funded by the National Policing Improvement Agency. 419W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 420W

Police: Travel Council of Europe: finance, if he will ensure that no further voluntary contributions are made by the UK to Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for the the Council of Europe or its institutions. [59436] Home Department what (a) free and (b) concessionary travel arrangements are available to police officers; and Mr Lidington: Voluntary contributions are given to what the cost to the public purse was of such arrangements the Council of Europe by member states for a range of in the latest period for which figures are available. activities, and can play an important role in the improvement [61349] of human rights, rule of law and democracy in Europe. We will continue to judge requests for voluntary Nick Herbert: The Home Office does not collect the contributions on their merits, including whether they data requested. Such arrangements are a matter for generate sufficient value for money and contribute towards agreement between the transport provider and the relevant our foreign policy priorities. police authority. Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will use the occasion FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE of UK’s chairmanship of the Council of Europe’s Committee of Ministers to (a) advocate a reduction in British Council: Finance the budget of the Council of Europe and its institutions and (b) review the current funding arrangements and Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for the proportion of funding provided by the UK. [59437] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by how much his Department’s grant to the British Council will change Mr Lidington: The Government are seeking to reduce in percentage terms in each year to 2015. [60046] the cost of our membership for all international organisations to which we belong. We communicated Alistair Burt: The cumulative percentage change in this objective to member state colleagues at the Council the Grant In Aid budget from the British Council’s of Europe in June 2010. We will continue to work with 2010-11 budget is: -4.44% for 2011-12, -9.93% for 2012-13, other member states, the Secretary-General and others -16.04% for 2013-14 and -22.07% for 2014-15. in our effort to deliver this objective. The annual percentage change is: -4.44% for 2011-12 -5.50% for 2012-13,-6.11% for 2013-14 and -6.03% for 2014-15. Council of Europe: Manpower COE Commissioner for Human Rights Mr Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many UK nationals and Commonwealth Affairs if he will review the were employed by the institutions of the Council of functions of the Council of Europe’s Commissioner Europe on the latest date for which figures are for Human Rights during the UK chairmanship of the available; and what proportion of the overall workforce of those institutions that figure represents. [60637] Council of Europe’s Committee of Ministers. [59438]

Mr Lidington: We do not have any plans to review the Mr Lidington: As of 31 May 2011 there was a total of functions of the Council of Europe’s Commissioner for 2,151 permanent staff working in the institutions of the Human Rights during the UK chairmanship of the Council of Europe, 252 of whom were UK nationals. Council of Europe’s Committee of Ministers. This is 11.7% of the total. Council of Europe Crown Relocations Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what matters were discussed at his recent meeting with the Secretary Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of General of the Council of Europe. [59439] 24 May 2011, Official Report, column 584W, on Crown Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Relocations, on what date the contract with Crown Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Relocations was signed; on what date it started; and on for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) discussed with what date it will expire. [58761] Secretary-General Jagland the UK’s objectives for our chairmanship of the Council of Europe from November Mr Lidington: The contract was signed on 15 July 2011 to May 2012. These include reform of the European 2004 and commenced on 30 July 2004. Court of Human Rights and wider reform of the Council An extension was signed on 12 March 2007 for the of Europe. He also stressed our support for budget period 1 May 2007 to 30 April 2010. discipline. A further extension was signed on 21 October 2009 Council of Europe: Finance for 1 May 2010 to 30 April 2011. Another extension is in the process of being signed Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign which will take the contract up to 30 April 2012. This and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of will allow time for the current re-procurement activity 19 May 2011, Official Report, columns 283-4W, on the to be completed. 421W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 422W

Departmental Parental Leave officials raise our concerns about possible sanctions breaches with the relevant overseas authorities as and Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign when they arrive. and Commonwealth Affairs what his Department’s Pakistan: Taliban policy for staff is in respect of (a) eligibility criteria and (b) rates of pay for (i) maternity and (ii) adoption leave. [61791] Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Mr Bellingham: The FCO offers the statutory package estimate he has made of the number of Taliban fighters of paid and unpaid leave for maternity and adoption. on the territory of Pakistan. [60159] As an alternative to statutory provisions, the FCO offers Contractual Maternity Pay (CMP) or Contractual Mr Hague: Given the highly complex dynamics of Adoption Pay (CAP) which pays full salary during a the conflict in Afghanistan and the porous border with staff member’s 26 weeks’ Ordinary Maternity Leave Pakistan, it is impossible to provide numbers of the (OML) or Ordinary Adoption Leave (OAL). Afghan Taliban presence in Pakistan. Staff must satisfy the following criteria in order to Prisoners: Voting Rights qualify for CMP or CAP: they are not employed on a standby, or short-notice appointment; Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign they have been continuously employed by the FCO for at least and Commonwealth Affairs when he last discussed the one year at the point when they start their OML or OAL; voting rights of prisoners with the Secretary General of they have complied with the notice requirements; the Council of Europe. [59440] they have not been on SUPL later than the 26 weeks preceding the 15th week before the expected week of confinement (EWC) Mr Lidington: The Secretary of State for Foreign and for OML (unless they are returning on the date originally Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member agreed for their return in which case this does not apply); for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) reminded the Secretary- they have confirmed in writing when giving notice that they General of our concerns regarding the voting rights of intend to return to work after maternity leave or adoption prisoners during their meeting on 7 June. leave and; they have confirmed in writing when giving notice that they Saudi Arabia: Politics and Government will repay payments for CMP or CAP (over and above the amount equivalent to Statutory Maternity or Adoption Pay) if they do not return to work. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on what EU Law occasions he has discussed proposals for democratic reform with his Saudi counterpart. [60036]

Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hague: I have raised reform and other issues Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent connected with the ‘Arab Spring’ with Prince Saud, discussions he has had with (a) the European most recently during Prince Saud’s visit to the UK in Commission and (b) his EU counterparts on the level March. of regulation in EU legislation. [60727] Somalia Mr Lidington: My Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) ministerial colleagues and I speak regularly with Paul Blomfield: To ask the Secretary of State for members of the European Commission and my EU Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what criteria the counterparts on the level of regulation in EU legislation. Government applies in determining whether to The UK’s strategy for EU growth, outlined in ‘Let’s recognise a state; what assessment he has made of the Choose Growth’ published in March 2011 aims, among merits of recognising Somaliland as a state against other things, to agree a new target to reduce the overall each criterion; and if he will make a statement. [61371] EU regulatory burden over the life of the Commission and make sure that all regulatory costs on businesses Mr Bellingham: The normal criteria for recognition are offset by savings elsewhere. as a state remain as described in the written answer dated 16 November 1989, Official Report, column 494, Iran: Sanctions by then Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, Mr. Sainsbury. Mr Douglas Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State The UK keeps its policy under review in light of these for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps he criteria and various UN Security Council Resolutions has taken to prevent Iranian-owned ships on Somalia, which reaffirm its respect for the sovereignty, circumventing sanctions. [60034] territorial integrity, political independence and unity of Somalia. Mr Hague: On 23 May, the EU strengthened its sanctions against Iran by adding over 100 more entities Sudan: Investment to its regulation, including 40 or so entities owned or controlled by Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for The Prime Minister, Minister for Europe and I have Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent held discussions with partners about the implementation discussions he has had on private investment in Sudan. of these measures. Foreign and Commonwealth Office [61377] 423W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 424W

Mr Bellingham: The Secretary of State for Foreign regime. We utterly condemn the indiscriminate violence and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the perpetrated by the Syrian security forces against peaceful Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague) has had no demonstrators. President Assad’s speech on 20 June specific discussions on private investment. However, the was disappointing and unconvincing. If President Assad UK has no barriers to private investment in Sudan and is to restore any credibility the Syrian people need to see the British Government are strongly supporting the concrete action, not vague promises. We have been clear initiative by Norway and Turkey to co-host an international that rapid and real implementation of substantial reforms, investment and engagement conference for Sudan later addressing the legitimate demands of peaceful Syrian in the year. The Foreign Secretary did discuss trade protesters, is what is urgently needed. There must also issues with Sudanese Foreign Minister Karti when they be an immediate end to violence by Syrian security met on 6 June. As the Secretary of State made clear on forces, the release of all political prisoners, an end to the that day, it is important for the UK to see both Sudan torture and abuse of those who remain in detention and and South Sudan emerge at the end of the Comprehensive access given to international humanitarian agencies. Peace Agreement as two economically viable and co-operating states, living in peace and stability. Turks and Caicos Islands

Sudan: Overseas Trade Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for written ministerial statement of 9 December 2010, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Official Report, columns 40-41WS, on Turks and he has had with his US counterparts on trade Caicos Islands, what recent assessment he has made of restrictions in Sudan. [61379] the likelihood of the Turks and Caicos Islands meeting the milestones prior to 2012. [61478] Mr Bellingham: I met with Johnnie Carson, US Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs on 29 May. I Mr Bellingham: There has not been sufficient progress made clear that the sanctions imposed by the US continue to date against the milestones to conclude that they will to be a serious block to British banks to operate in be met prior to 2012. However, following a visit to Sudan, causing problems for British NGO groups and London last week by a Turks and Caicos Islands delegation, staff, and other organisations to utilise the international good progress is now being made on the new Turks and banking system when dealing with or living in Sudan. Caicos Islands constitution. US regulations contain a number of exemptions and Turks and Caicos Islands: Politics and Government authorisations for activities and transactions that would otherwise be prohibited under U.S. sanctions against Sudan, particularly with respect to humanitarian assistance. Emma Reynolds: To ask the Secretary of State for I have asked for greater clarity on these exemptions for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent the benefit of the British Banking Association, and its assessment he has made of the likely timetable for the members. We understand that post-independence these restoration of self-government to the Turks and Caicos restrictions will not apply to South Sudan. Islands. [61468] Syria: Oil Mr Bellingham: It remains our intention to hold elections in 2012 subject to progress against the milestones Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for that I and the Minister of State, Department for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions International Development (Mr Duncan), identified in he has had with the governments of (a) Germany, (b) December. Italy, (c) France and (d) the Netherlands on steps to prevent the import of oil from Syria. [61801] TREASURY Alistair Burt: We have had no discussions with Germany, Italy, France or the Netherlands on steps to prevent the Air Passenger Duty import of oil from Syria. Syria: Sanctions Dr Poulter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effects of the introduction of regional air passenger duty rates on airlines Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for operating in London and the South East. [61424] Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what plans he has to impose further sanctions on Syria; and if he will Justine Greening: The Government undertook a make a statement. [61802] consultation on air passenger duty from 23 March to 17 June 2011. The Government will consider the views Alistair Burt: The Government, together with our and evidence submitted by interested parties and will EU partners, are working to expand restrictive measures publish a summary of responses in the autumn. on the Syrian regime with a view to achieving a fundamental change of policy should the Syrian leadership choose Big Society Bank not to change swiftly its current path of violent repression against the civilian population. Paul Flynn: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The Government have taken a prominent role in on what terms loans are to be offered by the big society introducing an EU travel ban and assets freeze on 23 bank; and whether such loans will be on a commercial individuals, including President Assad, in the Syrian basis. [54883] 425W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 426W

Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. Northern Rock The big society bank’s mission is to help grow a sustainable social investment market as set out in the Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Government’s social investment strategy published on when he expects to complete the sale of Northern Rock 14 February 2011. To this end, the BSB will look to plc. [61129] achieve returns against a double bottom line of social and financial impact. The big society bank is an Mr Hoban: The development and execution of strategies independent organisation and will develop its own for disposing of the Government’s shareholding in Northern investment strategy. Rock is part of UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI) remit. UKFI has been looking at the full range of Departmental Buildings alternatives for divestment, and has been exploring options based on maximising value for the taxpayer, Jesse Norman: To ask the Chancellor of the maintaining financial stability and paying due regard to Exchequer what the address is of each office property promoting competition. UKFI will provide advice on occupied by his Department outside Greater London the future of Northern Rock plc to the Chancellor of which it (a) owns and (b) rents; what the level of the Exchequer, who will make the final decision. utilisation is of each such property; what the capital The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. value is of each such property it owns; and what the (i) Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), launched annual rental cost and (ii) length of lease agreement is the sale process of Northern Rock plc on 15 June in his of each rented property. [61181] Mansion House speech. Any party, including mutuals could enter a bid for Northern Rock. At this stage all Justine Greening: HM Treasury currently rents office viable options remain available for further consideration accommodation in Rosebery Court, Norwich from the including remutualisation; however, a sale is being explored Cabinet Office. Under a recent machinery of government as the first option. No timeframe has been set for the change initiative, Cabinet Office assumed responsibility return of Northern Rock plc to the private sector. The for the whole of that building. Treasury is in the process Chancellor will take a decision when there is a proposition of reducing its holding there and is in discussion with in the taxpayers’ best interests. Cabinet Office to agree final space allocation and rental figures. It is anticipated that this action will be completed Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the next two-three months. whether his Department has made an assessment of the potential effects of mutualisation of Northern Rock plc Insolvency on the level of return to the public purse which may be achieved. [61130]

Mr Slaughter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Hoban: The development and execution of strategies how much was returned to HM Revenue and Customs for disposing of the Government’s shareholding in Northern and its predecessors as a result of insolvency proceedings Rock is part of UK Financial Investments Ltd (UKFI) in each of the last 10 years. [61699] remit. UKFI has been looking at the full range of alternatives for divestment, and has been exploring Mr Gauke: The information requested is not available options based on maximising value for the taxpayer, centrally and could be researched only at disproportionate maintaining financial stability and paying due regard to cost. promoting competition. HMRC only initiates bankruptcy or winding up action This included evaluating the return of Northern Rock where it believes this is the best course of action to to the mutual sector by combining it with an existing protect the interests of the Exchequer in respect of a mutual or through standalone remutualisation. In particular debt. conducting this analysis, UKFI, Northern Rock and HMRC does not take such action lightly but will not their advisers Deutsche Bank assessed the value to the hesitate to do so when that is the right way to protect taxpayer that would arise from pursuing different mutual tax revenues. options. As announced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Landfill Tax my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), in his Mansion House Speech on 15 June the analysis Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer conducted to date has demonstrated that the best value what assessment he has made of the potential effect on for the taxpayer is likely to be achieved by selling local communities of any reduction in the rate of landfill Northern Rock. This could be to a mutual organisation. tax; and if he will make a statement. [61149] At this stage all viable options remain available for further consideration including remutualisation; however, Justine Greening: The Government are committed to a sale is being explored as the first option. increasing the standard rate of landfill tax by £8 per tonne each year until 2014, and to ensuring that rate Tax Allowances: Uprating will not fall below £80 per tonne from 2014 to 2020. A clear trajectory for the rate of landfill tax provides Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer businesses and local authorities with confidence to make pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2011, Official long term investments in alternative waste management Report, column 805W, on personal taxation, if he will facilities that will ultimately benefit both the environment estimate the difference in the personal taxation payable and local communities. by an individual in each tax band attributable to 427W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 428W indexation of personal tax allowance by (a) the (2) how much of (a) unpaid tax and (b) overpaid consumer prices index and (b) the retail prices index in tax credits were repaid following a (i) appeal and (ii) each year from 2012-13 to 2015-16, taking account of complaint in the last year for which figures are the increases in the personal allowance in 2012-13 and available. [61240] future years. [61148] Mr Gauke: The information is not available and Mr Gauke: Budget 2011 announced that the personal could be researched only at disproportionate cost. allowance for those aged under 65 would increase by £630 from April 2012, taking it from £7,475 in 2011-12 to £8,105 in 2012-13. The personal allowance will increase from 2013-14 by at least the equivalent of the Retail DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER Prices Index (RPI) until the Government’s goal of increasing the personal allowance to £10,000 is achieved. Electoral Register Taking account of this announcement means there will be no alternative indexation arrangements on the level of the personal allowance in 2012-13. Starting Chris Ruane: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister if he from the announced £8,105 personal allowance in 2012-13, will assess the factors underlying the difference between hypothetical estimates of the maximum increase in income the estimates made by private sector credit reference tax liability attributable to indexation of the personal agencies and those of the Electoral Commission of the allowance for those aged under 65 only by CPI rather number of unregistered voters. [61661] than RPI from 2013-14 are shown in the table. Separate estimates are provided for basic rate, higher rate and Mr Harper: The Cabinet Office is funding the Electoral additional rate taxpayers. Commission to carry out research to provide a robust Calculations assume income refers to employment national measure of completeness and accuracy of the income only. registers. This study will report towards the end of 2011. Further research will be conducted to measure Marginal tax rate completeness and accuracy both before and after the Additional move to individual electoral registration. Basic rate Higher rate rate1

2013-14 £18 £01 to £36 £0 Voting Rights: Prisoners 2014-15 £44 £01 to £88 £0 2015-16 £74 £01 to £148 £0 Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister 1 The personal allowance is reduced by £1 for every £2 of income pursuant to the answer of 14 June 2011, Official above £100,000. Therefore additional rate and some higher rate Report, column 752W, on voting rights: prisoners, if he taxpayers will have a personal allowance of zero. will request that the Council of Europe’s Committee of Ignoring the announcement that the personal allowance Ministers postpone any action until after the UK will rise to £8,105 in 2012-13, hypothetical impacts on Chairmanship commences in November 2011. [61188] tax liabilities are as given in previous answer of 15 June 2011, Official Report, column 805W,on personal taxation. Mr Harper: The European Court of Human Rights’ These estimates are based on the Office for Budget decision in Greens v. MT obliges the Government to Responsibility’s March 2011 forecast assumptions for “introduce legislative proposals to amend section 3 of the 1983 RPI and CPI. Act and, if appropriate, section 8 of the 2002 Act” by 11 October 2011. The Committee of Ministers, Taxation: Fraud which is responsible for supervising the implementation of the Court’s judgments, has no power to change Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer deadlines fixed by the Court. The UK will provide the what proportion of the incidences of fraud and error Committee of Ministers with an update in advance of recorded by HM Revenue and Customs were attributable their next meeting in September. to (a) customer error, (b) administrative error and (c) fraud in the latest period for which figures are available. Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister [61298] pursuant to the answer of 14 June 2011, Official Report, column 752W, on voting rights: prisoners, what Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs do not record the latest date is on which the Government could data on fraud and error in this way and therefore it is introduce legislation to fulfil the requirements of the not possible to provide an answer to the question without judgements on prisoner voting rights. [61189] incurring disproportionate cost. Mr Harper Pursuant to my answer of 14 June 2011, Taxation: Repayments Official Report, column 752W, in the words of the Greens and MT judgment of the European Court of Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Human Rights, which became final on 11 April, the (1) what the average sum recovered by HM Revenue Government has six months to “bring forward legislative and Customs was from each individual taxpayer or tax proposals” to end the current blanket ban on prisoners credit claimant in respect of (a) unpaid tax, (b) voting. The Government are considering the next steps overpaid tax credit, (c) interest and (d) penalties in (i) and I will inform the House when decisions on the way 2008-09, (ii) 2009-10 and (iii) 2010-11; [61183] forward have been reached. 429W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 430W

Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Number of finished admission episodes1 with a primary diagnosis of pursuant to the answer of 14 June 2011, Official selected ICD-10 codes2, by cause code3 for those aged under 18, for Report, column 752W, on voting rights: prisoners, 2009-10 Q4 - January, February and March 2010 whether he has identified any legal and constitutional Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector mechanisms which would enable the UK to maintain ICD-10 code X65 Other Total its existing position on the voting rights of prisoners. [61190] T51 (excluding 11 13 24 T51.0) Mr Harper: The ECtHR found in the case of Hirst Total 33 824 857 (No.2) v. UK, that the current blanket ban on convicted 1 Finished admission episodes and sentenced prisoners voting was contrary to Article A finished admission episode (FAE) is the first period of in-patient 3, Protocol 1 of the European Convention on Human care under one consultant within one health care provider. FAEs are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Rights (the right to free and fair elections). The more Admissions do not represent the number of inpatients, as a person recent Greens v. MT judgment gave the UK six months may have more than one admission within the year. from 11 February 2011 to “;bring forward legislative 2 Primary diagnosis proposals” to end the current blanket ban on prisoners The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to voting. 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why The UK is obliged to implement judgments of the the patient was admitted to hospital. ICD-10 codes used: European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR). Article F10.1 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, 46 Section 1 of the Convention, states that each signatory harmful use F10.0 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, acute shall intoxication ″undertake to abide by the final judgment of the Court in any F10.2 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, case to which they are parties.″ dependence syndrome F10.3 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, Priti Patel: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister withdrawal state F10.4 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, pursuant to the answer of 10 June 2011, Official withdrawal state with delirium Report, columns 488-9W, on voting rights: prisoners, if F10.5 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, he will assess the effect of the absence of details of the psychotic disorder legislative changes which would be required to satisfy F10.6 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, the Court in the judgments made by the European amnesic syndrome F10.7 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, Court of Human Rights in respect of the voting rights residual and late onset psychotic disorder of prisoners; and if he will ask the Committee of F10.8 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, other Ministers to consider a referral under Article 46(3) to mental and behavioural disorders provide further clarity on the interpretation of the F10.9 Mental and behavioural disorders due to use of alcohol, judgments. [61191] unspecified mental and behavioural disorders K70 Alcoholic liver disease T51.-0 Toxic effect of alcohol Mr Harper: The European Court of Human Rights T51.1 Toxic effect of alcohol, Methanol judgment in Greens and MT v. UK recognises that a T51.2 Toxic effect of alcohol, 2-Propanol wide range of policy alternatives are available to the T51.3 Toxic effect of alcohol, Fusel oil UK to achieve compliance with the convention. T51.8 Toxic effect of alcohol, other alcohol T51.9 Toxic effect of alcohol, unspecified alcohol The Government are considering the next steps and I 3 Cause code will inform the House when decisions on the way forward A supplementary code that indicates the nature of any external have been reached. cause of injury, poisoning or other adverse effects. Only the first external cause code which is coded within the episode is counted in HES. Cause code used: HEALTH X65—Intentional self-poisoning by exposure to alcohol Note: Alcoholic Drinks: Children Data quality: HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England and from some independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and social how many children were admitted to hospital following care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission a suspected diagnosis of alcohol abuse in the last of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings quarter for which figures are available. [61304] remain. Source: Anne Milton: The information is in the following Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for table. health and social care Number of finished admission episodes1 with a primary diagnosis of Breast Cancer: Screening selected ICD-10 codes2, by cause code3 for those aged under 18, for 2009-10 Q4 - January, February and March 2010 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Activity in English NHS hospitals and English NHS commissioned (1) with which primary care trusts his Department is activity in the independent sector working to implement the plan to move from film to ICD-10 code X65 Other Total digital breast screening services; and in what capacity; F10.1 0 14 14 [61479] F10 (excluding 1 777 778 (2) whether he has set a deadline for the completion F10.1) and K70 of the move from film to digital breast screening T51.0 21 20 41 services. [61497] 431W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 432W

Paul Burstow: We are in the process of extending the Anne Milton: Following a search of the Department’s national health service breast screening programme (BSP) correspondence and parliamentary database for 2011 to women aged 47 to 73. The “Operating Framework we have identified eight letters and four parliamentary for the NHS in England 2011/12” confirms that all local questions relating to the statutory regulation of clinical screening programmes should continue this extension. physiology. One of the criteria for extension of the NHS BSP is that local screening programmes should have at least one digital mammography (DM) machine in place before Departmental Buildings they begin to extend. As at the end of May, 83% of local programmes had at least one DM machine and 35% were fully digital. Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the address is of each office property We have advised programmes to move to DM as occupied by his Department outside Greater London quickly as possible as the independent Advisory Committee which it (a) owns and (b) rents; what the level of on Breast Cancer Screening has said that running both utilisation is of each such property; what the capital film and DM together is inefficient. value is of each such property it owns; and what the (i) Clinical Physiologists: Regulation annual rental cost and (ii) length of lease agreement is of each rented property. [61178] Mrs Glindon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent representations he has received on Mr Simon Burns: Details of office property owned or introducing statutory regulation of clinical physiology. leased by the Department outside Greater London are [61345] as follows:

Length of Utilisation Capital value Annual rent lease Address Basis (percentage) (£) (£) (years) Lease end date

Hexagon House, Pynes Hill, Rydon Freehold 93.70 12,156,157 n/a n/a n/a Lane, Exeter, EX2 5SE 1st Floor Hembury House, Pynes Hill, Lease 90.50 n/a 2129,353 2 25 September 2013 Rydon Lane, Exeter, EX2 5AZ Units 8 and 9 Witney Way, Boldon Lease 59 n/a 239,999 21 30 September 2014 Business Park, Tyne And Wear, NE35 9PE Prospect House, Fishing Line Road, Lease 87.60 n/a 2153,606 7 16 January 2013 Redditch, Worcestershire, B97 6EW 1st Floor Block B, Tavistock House, Lease 95 n/a 2111,039 10 31 October 2012 Tavistock Square, London, WC1H 9HR Vantage,40 Aire Street, Leeds, West Serviced office 98 n/a 3— 5 31 March 2015 Yorkshire, LS14HT 1st and 2nd Floors, Princes Exchange, Serviced office 98 n/a 3— 5 31 December 2015 Princes Square, Leeds, West Yorkshire LS14HY 1st and 2nd Floors, 1 Whitehall Leeds, Serviced office 98 n/a 3— 5 31 March 2015 West Yorkshire, LS1 4HR Castleview House, East Lane, Runcorn, Memorandum of 100 n/a 255,000 3 31 October 2012 Cheshire, WA7 2DN terms of occupation Quarry House, Quarry Hill, Leeds, Memorandum of 75 n/a 25,813,000 20 31 March 2018 LS2 7UE terms of occupation Premier House, 60 Caversham Road, Lease 66 n/a 2368,000 5 29 April 2015 Reading, RG1 7EB 3, Piccadilly Place, Manchester, Memorandum of 100 n/a £88,000 1 31 March 2012 M1 3BN terms of occupation 3rd Floor. Block C, Cumberland Place, Memorandum of 100 n/a 2165,716 4 16 February 2015 Park Row, Nottingham NG16HJ terms of occupation 1 At 2005 prices 2 Incl VAT 3 Cannot be split out, all inclusive rate including utilities

The properties include serviced accommodation and (a) eligibility criteria and (b) rates of pay for (i) memorandum of terms of occupation where the maternity and (ii) adoption leave. [61793] Department is renting space from another Government body. Mr Simon Burns: The Department’s policies in respect of maternity leave and adoption leave are set out in the Departmental Parental Leave relevant current documents on the Department’s intranet, Delphi. Those documents will be placed in the Library. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Eligibility for maternity pay for departmental staff is what his Department’s policy for staff is in respect of as follows: 433W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 434W

The member of staff must complete an application form making a statement that they intend to return to work in the Statutory Instruments Title Number Department after their maternity leave, and must agree to repay The National Health Service (General Medical Services 2011/680 any contractual payment made during that period if they fail to Contracts) (Prescription of Drugs etc.) (Amendment) return. The member of staff must be in paid service, at the time Regulations 2011 the maternity leave begins, and must have completed at least one The Alder Hey Children’s NHS Foundation Trust (Transfer 2011/689 year’s such service within the civil service. That service need not of Trust Property) Order 2011 be continuous. (Staff in receipt of sick pay at pension rate are not regarded as being in paid service). The National Assistance (Sums for Personal Requirements) 2011/724 Amendment (England) Regulations 2011 The rates of pay allowed to eligible staff for maternity leave are The Walsall Hospitals National Health Service Trust 2011/791 26 weeks maternity leave on full pay and a subsequent 13 weeks (Establishment) Amendment Order 2011 paid at statutory maternity pay (SMP) rates for the period of continuous absence before and after childbirth. Even if ineligible The Derbyshire Community Health Services National 2011/798 Health Service Trust (Establishment) Order 2011 for paid maternity leave, a member of staff still has a statutory right to 52 weeks’ unpaid leave, and may qualify for SMP or The Hounslow and Richmond Community Healthcare 2011/799 maternity allowance. National Health Service Trust (Establishment) Order 2011 Similarly, eligibility for adoption leave in the Department The Leeds Community Healthcare National Health Service 2011/800 is as follows: Trust (Establishment) Order 2011 The member of staff should be newly matched with a child for The Lincolnshire Community Health Services National 2011/802 adoption by an approved adoption agency and have a ’matching Health Service Trust (Establishment) Order 2011 certificate’ from that agency. The member of staff should complete The Solent National Health Service Trust (Establishment) 2011/804 an application form stating that they intend to return to work in Order 2011 the Department after the adoption leave period, and agree to The Wirral Community National Health Service Trust 2011/805 repay any payment made during that period if they fail to return. (Establishment) Order 2011 The member of staff must be in paid service at the time that the The Eastern and Coastal Kent Community Health National 2011/890 adoption leave begins and have completed at least one year’s such Health Service Trust (Establishment) Amendment Order service within the civil service. The latter time need not be 2011 continuous. The Hereford Hospitals National Health Service Trust 2011/891 If the staff member has not completed one year’s service but (Establishment) Amendment Order 2011 has completed at least 26 weeks service, they will still be entitled The Medicinal Products (Herbal Remedies) (Amendment) 2011/915 to a reduced period of paid adoption leave. In these circumstances, Regulations 2011 up to 25 days’ paid leave will be allowed when the child first The Medicinal Products (Herbal Remedies) (Amendment) 2011/915 comes under the staff member’s full time care. A portion of this Regulations 2011 leave may be allocated for situations in advance of the start of full-time care. Again, staff in receipt of sick pay at pension rate The Hull and Goole Port Health Authority Order 2011 2011/939 are not regarded as being in paid service. The Solihull Primary Care Trust (Establishment) 2011/ Amendment Order 2011 1084 Rates of pay, allowed to fully eligible staff, for adoption leave are 26 weeks’ paid adoption leave on full contractual pay , a The National Health Service (Primary Dental Services) 2011/ (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2011 1182 subsequent 13 weeks paid at statutory adoption pay (SAP) and 13 weeks’ unpaid leave for the period of continuous leave before and The Northampton General Hospital National Health 2011/ after adoption. Service Trust (Establishment) Amendment Order 2011 1183 The Whittington Hospital National Health Service Trust 2011/ (Establishment) Amendment Order 2011 1184 Departmental Regulation The East Sussex Hospitals National Health Service 2011/ Trust (Establishment) and the Eastbourne Hospitals 1185 Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for National Health Service Trust and Hastings and Rother National Health Service Trust (Dissolution) Amendment Health what regulations his Department introduced Order 20T1 between 1 March 2011 and 31 May 2011; and what the The Contracting Out (Local Authorities Social Services estimated costs of implementation for those affected Functions) (England) Order 2011 were in each case. [60332] The Health Act 2009 (Commencement No.3) (Amendment) 2011/ Order 2011 1255 Mr Simon Burns: The regulations from 1 March to 31 (C.49) May, which have been implemented by the Department The Tobacco Advertising and Promotion (Display and 2011/ are in the table. Specialist Tobacconists) (England) (Amendment) 1256 Regulations 2011 The majority of regulations are public sector, therefore The Ashton, Leigh and Wigan Community Healthcare 2011/ are zero cost. Those regulations which could potentially National Health Service Trust (Establishment) Amendment 1276 impact business or civil society organisations impose no Order 2011 additional costs. The Medicines (Miscellaneous Amendments) Order 2011 2011/ 1327 Statutory Instruments Title Number

The Personal Injuries (NHS Charges) (Amounts) 2011/520 Amendment Regulations 2011 Drugs: Misuse The National Health Service (Charges for Drugs and 2011/518 Appliances) Amendment Regulations 2011 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for The National Health Services (Dental Charges) Amendment 2011/519 Health (1) whether he has had discussions with the Regulations 2011 chief superintendants overseeing the areas covered by The National Health Service Pension Scheme (Amendment) 2011/591 the Randomised Injectable Opioid Treatment Trial Regulations 2011 pilots conducted by the National Addiction Centre on The National Health Service Trusts (Originating Capital) 2011/624 Order 2011 the effects of the pilots on offending rates; and if he will make a statement; [61312] 435W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 436W

(2) whether his Department plans to tender for new encourages national health service trusts, care homes injectable treatment contracts in the next three months; and procurement organisations to adopt them, where and what (a) methods and (b) data his Department appropriate. has used to assess the model used in the Randomised Injectable Opioid Treatment Trial conducted by the Hepatitis: Nurses National Addiction Centre; [61313] (3) what estimate he has made of the (a) long-term Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for health outcomes for individuals, (b) effect on overdose Health what estimate he has made of the number of rates and (c) long-term financial cost-benefit to the hepatitis C specialist nurses per head of population in NHS arising from the Randomised Injectable Opioid the latest period for which figures are available; and if Treatment Trial pilots conducted by the National he will make a statement. [61559] Addiction Centre; and if he will make a statement. [61314] Anne Milton: Hepatitis C specialist nurses are not separately identified in the NHS Information Centre Anne Milton: The results of the Randomised Injectable workforce census. Local national health service Opioid Treatment Trial were published in May 2010 in organisations with their knowledge of the health needs The Lancet (Lancet 2010:1885-95). of their local populations are best placed to determine the staff needed to meet those needs. The paper looked at outcomes for people after six months in treatment. The paper concluded that; for a Hospitals: Finance group of people who had failed to benefit from previous treatment; supervised injectable heroin leads to significantly lower use of street heroin than do supervised injectable Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for methadone or optimised oral methadone. Treatment Health what payments will be made by each hospital to retention was improved and severe adverse events were meet private finance initiative contracts in 2011-12; and reduced. Further reports on the findings of the Randomised what payments were made by each hospital for this Injectable Opioid Treatment Trial pilots, including their purpose in each of the last five years. [61694] cost-effectiveness and impact on crime, are being prepared by the National Addiction Centre. Mr Simon Burns: Information on the annual Unitary Payments made under every signed health sector private Local Drug Partnerships in the areas where the trial finance initiative contract over the lifetime of the contract was conducted whose membership includes representatives can be found on the HM Treasury website at: of the police will have had the opportunity to discuss www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ the results of the trial. pfi_signed_projects_list_march2011.xls The 2011-12 Action plan for the National Treatment These are the latest figures collected from each Agency for Substance misuse (NTA) asks them to explore Department for the March 2011 Budget Report. The whether the model demonstrated in the Randomised Unitary Payment is paid by the national health service Injectable Opioid Treatment Trial can be made to work body to the private sector counterparty to the contract for the small number of people who may benefit, in a and covers all the services provided under the contract— way that is consistent with the best use of ever tighter initial construction, so the capital costs (repayment of resources. The NTA will tender new injectable treatment principal and financing); building maintenance; and in contracts, subject to finances being agreed. many cases the non-clinical support services such as cleaning, laundry, catering, portering and security. The Family Nurse Partnership Programme: Licensing payments are subject to meeting agreed performance and quality standards and the estimated amounts include Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for an annual uprate assumption for inflation of 2.5% for Health what the total licence fee is that his Department future years. paid for each local family nurse partnership in the last Meat: Hygiene year for which figures are available. [61825]

Anne Milton: The total figure spent on the licence for Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health new places in local family nurse partnerships in 2010-11 pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2011, Official was £12,832. The licence costs £15 per client, covering Report, column 878W, on meat: hygiene, if he will the full two and a half years the client is receiving the freeze charges to abattoirs pending the outcome of the programme, which equates to £6 per client each year. European Commission’s review. [61138] Anne Milton: Policy responsibility for meat hygiene Health Services: Food controls lies with the Food Standards Agency (FSA). We are advised by the FSA that full cost recovery for Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Health meat official controls complies with FSA policy, what the policy of his Department is on the application Government guidelines, and current European Union to hospitals and care homes of Government buying legislation. The European Commission’s review of EU standards on sustainably-sourced fish and seafood. charging rules is expected to reach a conclusion in the [61605] first quarter of 2012. This is expected to lead to a legislative proposal, which would then be subject to Anne Milton: The Department recognises the negotiation and to European Parliament and Council Government buying standards for food and catering as approval. The EU Review process is likely to take at good sustainable procurement practice. As such, it least two more years before any agreed changes are 437W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 438W incorporated within EU legislation. Any implications NHS: EU Law for United Kingdom charging policy that may arise from the EU review will be considered at the time. Mr Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will publish the legal advice he has Mental Illness: Cannabis received on the position of the NHS in respect of EU competition law under his revised legislative proposals Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for reorganisation of the NHS. [61691] what estimate he has made of the proportion of cannabis users who suffer from mental health problems Mr Simon Burns: Legal advice was integral to the as a result of using the drug. [61226] Department’s advice to Ministers on the introduction of the Health and Social Care Bill. However, no separate legal advice has been commissioned by officials on the Anne Milton: The Advisory Committee on the Misuse impact of the Bill on the application of European of Drugs in their report Cannabis classification and Union competition law to the national health service. Public Health published in May 2008 states that: This is because the Bill does not change EU competition ‘in some people, however, intoxication leads to attacks of law and the Government’s proposals made in response paranoia and confused feelings...the prevalence of these acute to the NHS Future Forum’s report would not change psychological reactions to cannabis is uncertain’. this position. In relation to long-term psychotic illness, the report states that: Tobacco: Olympic Games 2012 ‘on balance the council considers that the evidence points to a probable but weak causal link between psychotic illness and Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health cannabis use. Whether such a casual link will become stronger whether he has had discussions with the London with the wider use of higher potency cannabis products remain Organisation Committee of the Olympic Games on the uncertain’. provision of technical support by the World Health Organisation for implementation of a tobacco-free Midwives policy at the London 2012 Olympics. [61436]

Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: Officials in the Department for Health how many midwives there were in (a) England, (b) the and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have North West and (c) each NHS trust in Cumbria in discussed our shared aspiration for a tobacco-free Games each of the last five years. [61733] with the London 2012 Organising Committee (LOCOG). At this stage, LOCOG has not considered the role of the World Health Organisation in supporting this aspiration. Anne Milton: The following table includes the information requested. NHS hospital and community health services: Qualified midwives in England, the North West strategic health authority area and each specified organisation as COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT at 30 September each year Headcount Audit Commission: Consultants 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

England 24,469 25,093 25,664 26,451 26,825 Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for Of which: Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 28 February 2011, Official Report, column North West Strategic 3,959 4,010 3,892 3,855 3,947 Health Authority area 105W, on the Audit Commission: consultants, what the name is of each councillor paid by the Audit Commission Of which: for consultancy work in the last three years for which North Cumbria 159 165 163 160 172 figures are available; and how much has been paid to University Hospitals NHS Trust each such councillor in that period. [61782] University Hospitals 178 173 165 169 171 of Morecambe Bay Robert Neill: This is an operational matter for the NHS Trust Audit Commission and I have asked the chief executive Notes: of the Audit Commission to respond to my hon. Friend 1. North Cumbria University Hospitals NHS Trust and University Hospitals direct. of Morecambe Bay NHS Trust are the only national health service organisations that employ midwives in the Cumbria area. Letter from Eugene Sullivan, dated 23 June 2011: 2. Data Quality: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks Your parliamentary question has been passed to me for reply. to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. The Audit Commission has made payments to councillors Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes from April 2008 to March 2011, as detailed in the appendix. impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is The Improvement and Development Agency (IDeA) Peer Clearing footnoted in relevant analyses. The new headcount methodology for 2010 data House sourced and accredited councillor peers. is not fully comparable with previous years’ data due to improvements that The payments were for peer councillor contribution to the make it a more stringent count of absolute staff numbers. Further information on the headcount methodology is available in the Census publication here: nationally agreed programmes of council corporate assessments, www.ic.nhs.uk/webfiles/publications/010_Workforce/nhsstaff0010/ as part of Comprehensive Performance Assessment (CPA) and Census_Bulletin_March_2011_Final.pdf for Comprehensive Area Assessment (CAA) judgements that Source: were being formulated for 2010. Input by elected members was a The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Non-medical key component of the process to ensure all judgements took full Workforce Census. account of peer and practitioner experience. 439W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 440W

Peer Councillors were paid a standard national daily rate for £300 per day, depending on the type of work. In 2009/10 this each day they were on site. In 2008/09 this varied from £200 to became a single rate of £300. Travel costs were paid in addition.

£ Amount paid Name 2008/09 2009/10 2010/11 Total

Alan Jarrett 0.00 613.09 602.80 1,215.89 Andrew Judge 3,869.10 0.00 0.00 3,869.10 Ann Hartley 0.00 70.00 323.40 393.40 Chris Roberts 38.90 0.00 0.00 38.90 Christine Channon 906.80 170.79 300.00 1,377.59 David Dixon 4,109.04 0.00 0.00 4,109.04 David Williams 4,302.19 808.21 776.00 5,886.40 Gareth Barnard (Dr) 0.00 2,632.18 918.70 3,550.88 Geoff Williams 672.00 . 0.00 0,00 672.00 Glen Sanderson 10,665.91 980.70 2,912.90 14,559.51 Graham Chapman 0.00 351.70 4,950.12 5,301.82 Jane Evison 399.62 0.00 0.00 399.62 Jeremy Hilton 3,964.32 650.12 1,685.93 6,300.37 Jerry Roodhouse 3,217.90 900.00 527.00 4,644.90 John Kent 0.00 1,057.80 527.00 1,584.80 John Whelan 3,984.80 0.00 0.00 3,984.80 Jon Collins 8,756.47 150.00 327.50 9,233.97 Malcolm Grimston 0.00 3,256.46 2,060,17 5,316.63 Marco Longhi 17,378.50 2,607.84 2,046.00 22,032.34 Mike Parsons 523.92 0.00 0,00 523.92 Paul Crossley 5,867.14 0.00 0.00 5,867.14 Paul Godwin 1,519.46 0.00 0.00 1,519.46 Peter Box 5,275.00 0.00 0.00 5,275.00 Robert Light 4,609.63 1,237.40 0.00 5,847.03 Roger Lawrence 132.00 0.00 0.00 132.00 Roy Mayhew 314.48 0,00 0.00 314.48 Susan Dungworth 7,124.50 0.00 0.00 7,124.50 Terry Shields 4,610.40 0.00 0.00 4,610.40 Terry Stacy 4,856.10 177.80 100.40 5,134.30 Tony Newman 0.00 0.00 414.20 414.20 Trevor Jones 0.00 184.24 300.00 484.24 Tudor Evans 0.00 0.00 1,511.91 1,511.91 Alan Connett 0.00 446.03 73.40 519.43 John Commons 0.00 1,416.23 1,200.00 2,616.23 Clyde Loakes 0.00 446.60 0.00 446.60 Sue Derbyshire 0.00 749.60 478,80 1,228.40 Stephen Knight 0.00 423.40 0.00 423.40 P D Bettison 5,380.21 0.00 0.00 5,380.21 Menhoob Khan 0.00 407.16 0,00 407.16 Chris Pattison 11,600.08 437.00 0.00 12,037.08 114,078.47 20,174.35 22,036.23 156,289.05

Departmental Redundancy taxpayers money from DCLG budgets and a further £60 million from the budget for local government spending by 2014-15. Tessa Jowell: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Faith Communities Consultative Council estimate his Department has made of the cost to the public purse of redundancies in its non-departmental bodies (a) in 2011-12 and (b) over the comprehensive Stephen Timms: To ask the Secretary of State for spending review period. [61719] Communities and Local Government what the name is of each member of the Faith Communities Consultative Council. [55499] Robert Neill: Over the spending review period, the Department has allocated £46.2 million of restructuring Andrew Stunell [holding answer 13 May 2011]: The funding to its arm’s length bodies, of which £33.0 million Government have decided to discontinue the Faith is for 2011-12. Communities Consultative Council. We believe that it As outlined in my Department’s press notice of 16 March did not add value to the effective arrangements that 2011, our plans to reduce and reform the Department’s Departments already have in place for consulting faith arm’s length bodies will save around £170 million of communities on policy. 441W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 442W

Our preference is to work with faith communities in a apprentices, what estimate he has made of the number manner that is strategic and appropriate for particular of learners who will be funded by the allocation to situations. My Department will continue to liaise providers to deliver level three and above qualifications individually with national faith communities that provided for those over the age of 24. [61361] members of the Council, and to convene ad hoc groupings to discuss policy as necessary. Officials from various Mr Hayes [holding answer 22 June 2011]: The budget Departments will continue to attend meetings of the for apprenticeships, notwithstanding the additional funding Faith Communities Forum of the Inter Faith Network announced at this year’s Budget, is sufficient to fund for the United Kingdom, in order to engage with faith 227,000 adult apprenticeship starts in academic year communities collectively. 2011/12. ‘Skills for Sustainable Growth’1 and ‘Investing The Government recognises the vital contribution in Skills for Sustainable Growth’ set out the abolition of that faith communities make to civil society, and we are central targets and increased freedom and flexibility for committed to facilitating linkages and tackling barriers Further education colleges and training organisations that faith groups face. For instance my Department has to respond effectively to the needs of employers, learners invested £5 million in the Church Urban Fund’s Near and their communities. Accordingly, the take-up of Neighbours programme, using the local infrastructure apprenticeships by level follows employer demand and of the Church of England to build productive relationships we are not able to provide estimates of the number of between people from different faith backgrounds in advanced level apprenticeships (at level 3) that will be four key geographical areas. delivered. 1 Skills for Sustainable Growth published by BIS: Homelessness: Expenditure http://www.bis.gov.uk/news/topstories/2010/Nov/skills-for- sustainable-growth Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much his Arms Trade: Exports Department is spending on measures to reduce homelessness in 2011-12. [61631] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to which states the Government Grant Shapps: We are maintaining investment in has licensed the sale of defence equipment and homelessness grant at £100 million a year for each of armaments in each of the last two financial years. the next four years. As part of this grant, we have [59812] announced allocations of £81.5 million for local authorities and £18.5 million for the voluntary sector to support Mr Prisk: This information is published in the Annual their work to tackle and prevent homelessness. and Quarterly Reports on Strategic Export Controls. This includes £8.45 million allocated to the Greater These reports contain detailed information on export London Authority for the provision of rough sleeping licences issued, refused or revoked, by destination, including services in London and £4 million allocated to the the overall value, type (e.g. military, other) and a summary homelessness organisation Crisis to help single homeless of the items covered by these licences. They are available people access the private rented sector. to view on the Strategic Export Controls: Reports and We are also providing £37.5 million under the Statistics website at: Homelessness Change Programme over the three years https://www.exportcontroldb.berr.gov.uk/eng/fox from April 2012 to improve hostels for rough sleepers Currently this includes information up to 31 December and ensure that those coming off the streets get the 2010. Information covering 1 January 2011 to 31 March support they need. will be published in July this year. Regional Growth Fund Businesses Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the role is Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, of local enterprise partnerships in assessing bids to the Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is taking to (a) encourage dynamism in the enterprise regional growth fund. [59519] start-up market, (b) strengthen business support networks (c) [61106] Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. and increase business productivity. The local enterprise partnerships have no formal role Mr Prisk: In January, the Department published in assessing bids to the regional growth fund. However, “Bigger, Better Business: Helping small firms start, they can have a powerful role in their own areas to make grow and prosper”, setting out what we are doing to bids on their own behalf, especially for programmes, ensure start-ups and small and medium-sized enterprises and in co-ordinating and supporting other local bids. can access the information, networks and advice they need. In March, Government published “The Plan for BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Growth”, setting out a radical plan to get the UK economy growing. Apprentices Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer he has made of the barriers to starting a business in the of 24 May 2011, Official Report, column 642W, on UK. [61110] 443W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 444W

Mr Prisk: The Department’s Household Survey of that demonstrate a potential for growth, and are looking Entrepreneurship, which was last conducted in 2007, closely at how best this programme can be integrated or collects data on barriers to enterprise: aligned with Business Coaching for Growth from January http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file46964.doc 2012. BIS also sponsors the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor The primary objective of both the new framework, (GEM) UK survey which collects data on barriers to which will be published later this year, and the SME start-up and the issues facing nascent businesses, on an Leadership and Management Programme is to encourage annual basis. Additionally, the World Bank Doing Business all businesses to invest more in order to improve leadership Report assesses the ease of starting a business in 183 and management skills to drive up their own performance countries, including the UK which was ranked 17th out and help raise overall productivity throughout the economy. of 183 in the 2011 report. This Department helps companies increase their Alongside this research, Ministers and officials regularly performance by the adoption of best practice through engage with would-be entrepreneurs, start-ups and the its support for the Manufacturing Advisory Service small business representative bodies to discuss barriers (MAS). MAS helps small and medium-sized manufacturing to starting a business. firms achieve big improvements in their productivity and competitiveness by providing direct access to manufacturing experts who provide professional advice Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, and practical, hands-on support. A programme of visits Innovation and Skills what steps his Department is to best practice exemplars is one of the services offered taking to help businesses increase their performance in by MAS. respect of (a) innovation, (b) management skills and (c) the adoption of best practice. [61112] Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what Mr Willetts: This Department helps businesses increase proportion of businesses reported to his Department their innovation performance through a range of measures that growth of their business was a priority in each year including the work of partner bodies such as the Technology since 2005. [61119] Strategy Board, which is the Government’s prime channel through which we support business-led technology innovation, and the Design Council. Mr Prisk: The BIS Small Business Survey provides The Technology Strategy Board is establishing a network information on the proportion of small and medium-sized of elite technology and innovation centres to commercialise enterprises (SME) employers (with one to 249 employees) new and emerging technologies—the High Value that aim to grow their business in the next two to three Manufacturing Technology and Innovation Centre has years. Table 1 shows that in 2010 nearly three-quarters been launched and others in the areas of cell therapy (74%) of SME employers aimed to grow their business and offshore renewable energy are planned. The Technology within the next two to three years (or approximately Strategy Board also delivers a national collaborative 880,000 businesses). R&D and grant for R&D schemes, which are focused Table 1: Proportion of SME employers aiming to grow the business on supporting research and development projects in Aim to grow in next two to three businesses, and the Small Business Research Initiative, years (percentage) which aims to provide business opportunities for innovative companies while solving the needs of Government 2005 56 Departments. 2006/07 65 2007/08 67 The Design Council helps small and medium-sized 2010 74 enterprises (SMEs) to develop their capacity for design Source: and innovation through the Designing Demand programme BIS Small Business Survey 2005-10—SME employers only which helps SMEs become more competitive, increase their profits and boost performance through the strategic BIS also regularly examines a range of other surveys use of design. including those of business organisations like the Confederation of Business Industry (CBI) to better This Department also supports R&D tax credits, which understand the growth ambition of all businesses, not provides tax relief for companies undertaking R&D work. just SMEs. Figures for 2005 to 2011 from the CBI Leadership and management skills are recognised as Quarterly Services Sector Survey showing the proportion key elements in driving business performance and raising of service sector businesses expecting to expand their productivity, with strong links to the better utilisation business in the year ahead are shown in the following of skills and high performing workplaces. table: In ‘Skills for Sustainable Growth’ this Department Table 2: Expectation of growth in next 12 months emphasised the importance of improving leadership Survey period Services sector (%) and management skills and set out our intention to work with employers, employer bodies, the TUC, ACAS, May 2005 50 and others to develop a framework for improving leadership May 2006 53 and management skills to encourage high performance May 2007 45 working and better use of skills. May 2008 39 May 2009 29 We are continuing to provide the SME Leadership May 2010 52 and Management Programme with priority for support May 2011 50 being given to those small and medium-sized businesses 445W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 446W

Businesses: Young People The Office for National Statistics (ONS) publish information on employment levels by responsibility level Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for as part of the Annual Civil Service Employment survey Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the as well as information on the overall number of leavers number and proportion of (a) young people aged 16 to by Department including BIS. This can be viewed at: 24 and (b) people aged over 25 who considered going http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=2899 into business in each year since 2005. [61099] ONS publish information on employment levels across the civil service as part of the Quarterly Public Sector Mr Prisk: BIS does not hold the precise information Employment Bulletin, which can be viewed at: to answer this question. The Global Entrepreneurship http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=13615 Monitor provides a measure of the proportion of adults in the UK who intend to start a business within the next Departmental Parental Leave three years. Data has been provided for 18 to 24-year-olds and the total population (18 to 64-year-olds) only. The Table shows that in 2009, 5.5% of 18 to 24-year-olds Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for who were not already engaged in enterprise activity in Business, Innovation and Skills what his Department’s the UK intended to start up a business within the next policy for staff is in respect of (a) eligibility criteria three years, compared to 4.4% of the adult population and (b) rates of pay for (i) maternity and (ii) adoption overall. 2009 is the latest year for which BIS hold data at leave. [61790] the level of detail required to answer this question (i.e. intention to go into business by age group). Mr Davey: The Department for Business Innovation and Skills (BIS) was created on 5 June 2009, with the Intention to start a business among non-entrepreneurially active population merger of Department for Business Enterprise and Percentage Regulatory Reform (BERR) and Department for 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Innovation Universities and Skills (DIUS). Following 18 to 24 10.3 7.8 8.2 8.4 5.5 the merger employees remain on the terms and conditions Total 6.5 5.6 5.0 5.2 4.4 applicable to them at the time of the merger. Source: (i) Maternity leave Global Entrepreneurship Monitor UK combined database 2002-09 All pregnant employees are entitled to up to 52 weeks maternity Defence Equipment leave irrespective of length of service. Employees on BERR arrangements who have completed one year’s qualifying service are eligible for 26 weeks contractual maternity pay payable at Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for their normal rate of pay. Employees on DIUS arrangements are Business, Innovation and Skills what expenditure his eligible for 28 weeks contractual maternity pay payable at their Department will incur in relation to the Defence and normal rate of pay and are not required to serve a qualifying Security Equipment International Exhibition between period. Contractual payments include an element of statutory 13 and 16 September 2011; and which Ministers from maternity pay. Employees who do not meet the qualifying criteria are paid the statutory rates applicable to them. his Department plan to attend the event. [60762] (ii) Adoption leave Mr Prisk: Costs associated with hosting official overseas All employees who adopt a child are entitled to up to 52 weeks delegations invited by Government to attend DSEi ‘11 adoption leave irrespective of length of service. Employees on will be met by the organisers. UKTI DSO will part fund BERR arrangements who have completed one year’s qualifying service are eligible for 26 weeks contractual adoption pay payable a Capability Showcase which is expected to cost around at their normal rate of pay. Employees on DIUS arrangements £100,000. This will at least be in part offset by income are eligible for 28 weeks contractual adoption pay payable at their from industry in support of the showcase and other normal rate of pay and are not required to serve a qualifying support. No direct costs, other than staff time and period. Contractual payments include an element of statutory related staff travel expenses, will be incurred on hosting adoption pay. Employees who do not meet the qualifying criteria official delegations. Programmes of UK Government are paid the statutory rates applicable to them. Ministers are decided nearer to the date of the event and will not be published in advance of it taking place. Developing Countries: Cotton

Departmental Manpower Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on Mr Nicholas Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for the step forward on cotton initiative for least developed Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make it his countries proposed by the Director General of policy to publish monthly information on changes in the World Trade Organisation (WTO); what the number of employees of his Department’s agencies, representations he has made to other WTO members categorised by (a) seniority, (b) voluntary redundancy, on this proposal; and if he will make a statement. (c) natural wastage and (d) involuntary redundancy. [61564] [61704] Mr Davey: The director general of the World Trade Mr Davey: The Government are committed to Organisation (WTO) proposed that ‘a step forward on transparency and the availability of data and are currently cotton’ be included in a development-focussed package exploring options for the more frequent publication of of the Doha Development Agenda (DDA) to be agreed this type of work force management information across at the December WTO ministerial. The details of this the civil service. step forward have not yet been defined. 447W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 448W

The removal of developed country cotton subsidies is English Language: Education a UK Government priority for the DDA and I and other Ministers have consistently pressed this with counterparts. We are supportive of any proposals that Shabana Mahmood: To ask the Secretary of State for would move this issue forward. UK officials are working Business, Innovation and Skills what representations he with the WTO secretariat and other WTO member has received on the effects on women of changes to the states to push for the step forward on cotton to be as provision of courses of English for speakers of other ambitious as possible. languages. [61539]

Mr Hayes: Since the publication of “Skills for Sustainable Employment Schemes Growth”, a large number of organisations and individuals, including Members, have made representations to my Department about the impact of our proposals for Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL). They Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what data he will have included correspondence from learners and their require (a) further education institutions and (b) representatives and Principals of Further Education Jobcentre Plus to provide to his Department as part of Colleges. I also hold regular meetings with Further the Job Outcome Incentive Scheme pilots in the Education stakeholders; the topics that we have discussed academic year 2011-12; and whether this information include ESOL will be published; [61368] The views and supporting information offered by (2) when his Department expects to publish details these groups have been collated and are being taken of the Job Outcome Incentive Scheme pilots for the into consideration as part of the ESOL impact assessment, 2011-12 academic year. [61370] which will be published before summer recess. Mr Hayes: As part of the measures to simplify the Teresa Pearce: To ask the Secretary of State for further education and skills funding system we are Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions introducing Outcome Incentive Payments. The Skills he has had with Ministerial colleagues on the equality Funding Agency will trial this approach in the 2011/12 impact assessment of the Government’s proposals for academic year through the introduction of a Job Outcome the funding of courses of English for speakers of other Payment. languages. [61541] Further information on the operation of the Job Outcome Payment pilot will be provided in Guidance Note 8 which is due to be published by the agency Mr Hayes: An assessment of how the changes announced before Summer recess. Technical detail, including in Skills for Sustainable Growth (November 2010) may information relating to the data required will be given in affect English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) a Technical Briefing Note that will be published shortly learners is currently being carried out by the Department. afterwards. Together with the agency, the Department Business and Skills Ministers meet regularly with ministerial for Business, Innovation and Skills intend to seek the colleagues in other Government Departments and have views of colleges and training organisations to evaluate discussed a range of issues, including the assessment. In the Job Outcome Payment pilot. addition, my officials have been in regular contact with other Departments on this subject. Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills which colleges he EU Grants and Loans expects to participate in the Job Outcome Incentive scheme pilots in the 2011-12 academic year. [61447] Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Hayes [holding answer 22 June 2011]: As part of Business, Innovation and Skills how many successful the measures to simplify the further education and regional growth fund bids were made with reference to skills funding system we are introducing outcome incentive matched funds from the European Regional payments. The Skills Funding Agency will trial this Development Fund in the most recently announced approach in the 2011/12 academic year through the funding round. [59520] introduction of a job outcome payment. Guidance Note 61, published by the Skills Funding Mr Prisk: There were 464 bids to the regional growth Agency on 16 December 2010, stated that all colleges fund (RGF) round 1. Of these, 66 mentioned bids for and training organisations with an Adult Skills Budget European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) funding allocation have an identified amount of funding to be in their application. One such bid, Manchester Eye used for job outcome incentive payments. This equates Hospital, was successful. to 2.5% of the 2011/12 indicative Adult Skills Budget Officials in the Department and in the ERDF teams allocation and is shown as a potential payment on the have worked closely together to align, where practical, funding statements of colleges and training organisations. the respective funds’ bidding processes. Most ERDF Further information on the operation of the job outcome programmes are managing a simultaneous call for proposals payment pilot will be provided in Guidance Note 8 to complement the timing of the RGFs second round, which is due to be published by the agency before with the aim of encouraging applicants to maximise the summer recess. available public resource. Applicants seeking to access 1http://readingroom.skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk/sfa/ ERDF will however need to comply with the application skills_funding_agency_-_guidance_note_6_final_-v2_.pdf process and the ERDF specific project selection criteria. 449W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 450W

Further Education: Attendance Higher Education: Admissions

Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Pat Glass: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether further education institutions Innovation and Skills how many people resident in undertaking education and training as part of skills North West Durham constituency applied to enter conditionality proposals will be required to report on university in the academic year (a) 2008-09, (b) course attendance and completion for the purposes of 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11; and how many such applying higher-level sanctions. [61437] applicants were successful. [61408]

Mr Hayes [holding answer 22 June 2011]: It is for Mr Willetts: The information is in the following table further education colleges to determine whether to make and has been provided by the Universities and Colleges their provision available to mandated learners. If they Admissions Service (UCAS) chose to do so, they will be required to meet Jobcentre Applicants who were not accepted for entry will Plus data requirements which include providing information include: individuals who did not receive any offer; on levels of attendance and completion. individuals who received an offer (conditional or General Agreement on Trade in Services unconditional) but decided not to go to university; individuals who received a conditional offer and failed to meet the specific conditions (eg they did not achieve Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for certain grades); and individuals who decided to withdraw Business, Innovation and Skills what commitments the from the UCAS system. UK has in respect of Mode 4 of the General Agreement on Trade in Services. [61606] Applicants and accepted applicants to full-time undergraduate courses at UK institutions from North West Durham constituency 2008/09, 2009/10 and 2010/11 Mr Davey: The UK’s commitments in Mode 4 under Applicants Accepted applicants the World Trade Organisation (WTO) General Agreement on Trade in Services include commitments in Intra- 2008/09 586 468 corporate Transfers, Business Visitors and Contractual 2009/10 620 501 Service Suppliers. 2010/11 694 531 The detail of the commitments is set out in the EU Source: schedules of services commitments which are available UCAS on the WTO website at: Higher Education: Finance www.wto.org

Green Investment Bank: Location Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for number of first-time full-time undergraduates studying Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to announce in institutions not in receipt of public funds eligible for his decision on the location of the Green Investment fee loans in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12, (c) 2012-13, (d) 2013-14 and (e) 2014-15; and if he will make a Bank; and if he will make a statement. [61588] statement. [61458] Mr Prisk: Following state aid approval the Green Investment Bank (GIB) will be established as a Companies Mr Willetts [holding answer 22 June 2011]: The Act company and its board will be appointed. The Department cannot provide estimates of the number of Government and the GIB board, working closely with students at privately funded institutions eligible for fee the Government Property Unit, will take a decision on loans as these data are not centrally collected. the GIB’s location, taking into account: (1) the ability to deliver the GIB mission (2) operational costs, and (3) Investment: Sudan access to required talent. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Business, Innovation and Skills what recent discussions for Business, Innovation and Skills (a) what criteria he he has had on private investment in Sudan. [61378] plans to use and (b) whether he plans to take into account (i) the availability of sustainable transport links and (ii) environment city status when making his Mr Prisk: The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation decision on the location of the Green Investment Bank; and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), has had no recent discussions, and if he will make a statement. [61591] or other related engagement, on the matter of UK Mr Prisk: The location for the Green Investment private investment in Sudan. Bank (GIB) will be chosen to enable it best to deliver its mission. The criteria will be: (1) ability to deliver the National Enterprise Academy: Private Sector GIB mission; (2) operational costs; and (3) access to required talent. John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for Fuller details of these criteria are set out in Section Business, Innovation and Skills what private sector 2.7 of the “Update on the design of the Green Investment financial support the National Enterprise Academy has Bank” which I published on 23 May. This decision will received since 2008; and if he will make a statement. be taken in due course. [59797] 451W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 452W

Mr Hayes: Since 2008, the National Enterprise Academy Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for (NEA) has received £218,310 cash investment from the Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer private sector and the NEA estimates it has attracted £3 of 23 May 2011, Official Report, columns 480-1W, on million in in-kind support from the private sector. students: finance, how many staff from Rainey Kelly Over the past two years, the NEA has developed a Campbell Roafle are working on his Department’s new brand of practical enterprise and entrepreneurship campaign. [58432] training for young adults, including employer mentor support for learners, as an integral part of their course. Mr Willetts: The published contract documentation referred to in my previous answer, details 11 job titles, North Sea Oil along with the number of hours allocated under each job title, for work on the campaign. Mr Denham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer of 9 May Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011, Official Report, column 956W, on North Sea oil, Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer what discussions Ministers in his Department held, on of 23 May 2011, Official Report, columns 480-1W, on what dates and with which oil and gas companies prior students: finance, what expenditure his Department to the Budget Statement of 23 March 2011. [60725] will incur in connection with the appointment of Rainey Kelly Campbell Roafle. [58433] Mr Prisk: Nothing has changed since my answer of 9 May 2011, Official Report, column 956W. Mr Willetts: Rainey Kelly Campbell Roalfe were appointed to support the campaign at an expected cost Oil of £150,000, which it is expected will be incurred. In addition the Department has incurred central Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for office of information management fees of £5,132 in Business, Innovation and Skills what plans his connection with the appointment of the agency. Department has to address the challenges posed by peak oil. [60101] Self-employed Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by the Minister of State, Department of Energy Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the Wealden (Charles Hendry), on 16 June 2011, Official proportion of adults who considered going into Report, column 895W. business or becoming self-employed in each year since 2005; and if he will estimate the proportion of such Rainey Kelly Campbell Roalfe people who believed they had sufficient knowledge and understanding to do so in each such year. [61094] Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer Mr Prisk: The Global Entrepreneurship Monitor of 23 May 2011, Official Report, columns 480-1W, on provides a measure of the proportion of UK adults students: finance, if he will publish the contract for who were not already engaged in enterprise, who intended services between his Department and Rainey Kelly to start-up in business within the next three years. Table Campbell Roafle. [58431] 1 shows that in 2010, 6.7% of the adult population in the UK said they intended to start-up in business within Mr Willetts: As the services were procured through the next three years. the Central Office of Information, and in line with the BIS does not have data on the proportion of such Government’s commitment to ensure transparency, the people who believed that they had sufficient knowledge contract for services between them and Rainey Kelly and understanding to start-up in business. However, the Campbell Roalfe was published on the Businesslink Global Entrepreneurship Monitor does provide a measure contract finder website. A copy of the contract will be of the proportion of UK adults who were not already supplied to the right hon. Member and placed in the engaged in enterprise, who agreed they had the skills Library. and knowledge to start a business. The relevant Buinesslink website page upon which The table shows that in 2010, 46.1% of the non- the contract details can be obtained can be accessed via entrepreneurially active adult population in the UK the following link: said they believed they had the skills and knowledge to http://www.contractsfinder.businesslink.gov.uk start a business.

Table 1: Entrepreneurial intentions and confidence in start up skills among UK adults Percentage 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

Intend to start-up in next three years1 8.7 7.8 7.4 6.8 6.1 6.7 I have the knowledge and skills to start a 46.4 45.1 44.0 44.4 44.4 46.1 business2 1 Some of those adults indicating they intend to start up could also already be running a business. 2 Among those not already engaged in enterprise activity. Source: Global Entrepreneurship Monitor UK 2010 report 453W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 454W

Short Time Working full fee remission for their first qualification at Level 3. Outside of this entitlement, there is an expectation that Mrs Riordan: To ask the Secretary of State for learners undertaking Level 3 qualifications will share Business, Innovation and Skills whether he has plans to the costs with the Government; with co-funding in the bring forward legislative proposals to reform short time 2011/12 and 2012/13 academic years, and the introduction working. [61387] of Government-backed loans from 2013/14. The Statistical First Release1 provides the latest data Mr Davey: The Government have no current plans to on the proportion of starts and completions for learners reform the law on short time working. at Level 3. Based on historical data we estimate that 3,000 learner places at Level 3 could become co-funded Small Businesses rather than fully-funded in 2011/12. However, as the further education funding system is demand-led it is not possible to predict the number or proportion of adults Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for that will be required to pay a fee for a first Level 3 Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the qualification beyond 2011. number and proportion of small businesses that were 1 involved in enterprise awareness-raising activities in http://www.education.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/index.shtml each year since 2005. [61098] Students: Finance Mr Prisk: I do not have a record of small business involvement in enterprise awareness raising activities in each year since 2005. Such engagement is by its very Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for nature undertaken at the local level and statistics are Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer not collected centrally. of 23 May 2011, Official Report, columns 478W, on students: finance, on what socio-demographic groups Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for the public information campaign has been targeted. Business, Innovation and Skills if he will estimate the [58434] proportion of small businesses that (a) sought and (b) took-up external business advice funded by his Mr Willetts: In line with the campaign objective of Department during their start-up in each year since communicating accurate information about the new 2005. [61108] student finance arrangements to potential students and their parents/carers, the campaign has been aimed at all Mr Prisk: The Department of Business Innovation young people aged 15 to 19, but particularly those who and Skills funds support for business start-ups which is are closest to making a decision to go onto higher currently accessed via the Regional Development Agencies education, along with their parents and carers. (RDAs) through the Business Link regional advisory The Government are committed to ensuring that all service. The RDAs have reported (a) the following young people who have the potential should be given levels of engagement with business start-ups (i.e. those the opportunity to attend university. The Department businesses trading for less than 12 months) since 2005. will therefore be undertaking additional activity to ensure that accurate information reaches those from lower Financial year Number of start-up businesses income households. 2005/06 39,198 2006/07 46,093 2007/08 52,178 Trade 2008/09 54,806 2009/10 58,662 Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010/11 46,570 Business, Innovation and Skills what the UK’s Mode 4 commitments are under international trade agreements The regional Business Link providers do not record which are in force. [61826] information on the level of take-up of advice provided.

Students: Fees and Charges Mr Davey: The UK has commitments in Mode 4 under the World Trade Organisation (WTO) General Agreement on Trade in Services. The detail of the Mr Marsden: To ask the Secretary of State for commitments is set out in the EU schedules of services Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of commitments which are available on the WTO web-site those studying for level 3 or above qualifications would at: be required to pay fees for their courses under the proposals contained in his Department’s document, www.wto.org Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth. [61366] The UK also has commitments, some of which go further than WTO commitments, in agreements negotiated Mr Hayes: In November 2010 the coalition Government at the EU level, including with Chile, CARIFORUM published “Investing in Skills for Sustainable Growth” and Korea. The detail of these commitments is set out which set out the planned changes to the entitlements to in the agreements which are available on the Commission full funding further education and skills for adults in website at: England. Learners aged 19 up to 24 will be entitled to http://ec.europa.eu/trade/ 455W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 456W

Trading Standards: Legal Profession Julian Wall (Director of International Events and Independent Member Services, BPI Ltd) David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Joe Paice (Information Manager, Jazz Services) Business, Innovation and Skills what powers (a) his Martin Elbourne (Director/Founder, The Great Escape and Department and (b) trading standards officers have to Booker for Glastonbury) investigate the activities of partners and directors of Penny King (Senior Officer—Music, Arts Council England) law firms which enter liquidation and subsequently Sumit Bothra (MD, Embargo Management) reopen under a different name in the same premises Nici Butchart (Head of International Business Development, and with the same staff. [60999] PRS for Music) Horace Trubridge (Assistant General Secretary, Musicians Mr Davey [holding answer 20 June 2011]: The Union) information requested is as follows: Dominic McGonigal (Director of Government Relations, PPL) (a) The Secretary of State has the power to investigate Jackie Davidson (Director, Jackie Davidson Management) any company or limited liability partnership where there Kate Brockhurst (MD, KdotONLINE) appears good reason, usually the suspicion that it is Cathy Graham (Head of Music, British, Council) trading fraudulently or against the public interest. However, Claire Whitaker (Director, Serious) there is nothing in law to prevent a director of a company in liquidation from forming a new company, Colin Holdsworth (Director, CPH Exhibitions attending on behalf of Music Industries Association) from acting as a partner or as a sole trader to carry on a business similar to, or even identical to, that of the Kevin McManus (Director, Liverpool Vision) former company providing, in respect of any limited Paul Redding (MD, Beggars) company, he has not been disqualified from acting in Phil Catchpole (Music Adviser, British Council) the management of a limited company and is not personally Steve Zapp (Agent, ITB) bankrupt. Vanessa Reed (Director, RS for Music Foundation) (b) Trading Standards have powers to investigate Peter Jenner (Secretary General, International Music Managers breaches under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Forum and Artist Manager) Trading Regulations 2008 which bans all persons acting Representatives from UK Trade and Investment and in trade or business from engaging in unfair commercial Department of Culture, Media and Sport also attend. (mainly marketing and selling) practices against consumers. The regulations apply across all business sectors and set Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for out a framework for how businesses must deal with Business, Innovation and Skills on how many consumers so that consumers can make free and informed occasions UK Trade and Industry’s Music Exports choices in relation to goods and services offered for sale. Group has met in the last 12 months. [61005] Enforcement of the regulations is through undertakings from infringers, enforcement orders or by prosecution Mr Prisk [holding answer 20 June 2011]: UK Trade with offences carrying a fine of up to £5,000 or and Investment’s Music Export Group has met three imprisonment or both. times in the last 12 months on the following dates: 16 June 2010, 25 October 2010 and 8 April 2011. UK Trade and Industry’s Music Export Group Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills under what budget Business, Innovation and Skills what the names and headings the funding allocated to UK Trade and positions are of members of the UK Trade and Investment to promote music exports has been spent. Industry’s Music Export Group. [61004] [61052]

Mr Prisk [holding answer 20 June 2011]: The following Mr Prisk [holding answer 20 June 2011]: Funding list provides the names and positions (supplied in brackets) allocated to UK Trade and Investment to promote of UK Trade and Investment’s Music Export Group music exports has been included in spend under the members: programme codes: Sector Events—Abroad, Sector Doug D’Arcy, Chairman (Owner, Songlines Music) Events—UK, Inward Missions, Trade Marketing Events, Judith Govey (International Manager, AIM) Trade Marketing Publications, Trade Marketing Publicity, Peter Filleul (Executive Director, APRS) Tradeshow Access Programme and Solo Support Scheme. Liam Donnelly (Head of International, Americas and Asia Pacific, PRS for Music) VAT Joel Mills (Music Adviser, British Council) Atholl Swainston-Harrison (CEO, International Artists Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Management Agency) Business, Innovation and Skills what the rate of value Adam Webb (Press and Communications Executive, UK Music) added tax registration was in the (a) 20 per cent. most Leah Zakss (Music Adviser, British Council) and (b) 20 per cent. least deprived wards in England in Laura Whitticase (Applications Co-ordinator, PRS for Music each year since 2005. [61096] Foundation) Crispin Parry (CEO, British Underground) Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. Jon Webster (Chief Executive, MMF) Information is not available on the rate of value Dick Miller (Director, Rightsman Independent International added tax registrations at ward level and could be Consultancy) estimated only at disproportionate cost. 457W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 458W

JUSTICE going to Victim Support who have been guaranteed the same amount again for each of the next two financial Chief Coroner years. I have asked Victim Support to focus their work on Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for victims with the greatest need. I and my officials are in Justice when he last held a joint meeting with the Royal regular contact with them as they implement their British Legion, CRY, INQUEST and other charities to planned changes. discuss the Office of the Chief Coroner. [61359] Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Djanogly: I met with a number of civil society Justice if the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State organisations as a group on 25 October 2010 including for Prisons and Probation will meet the All Party the Royal British Legion, CRYand INQUEST to discuss Parliamentary Group on Retail and Business Crime to the Government’s plans for coroner reform. I have discuss support for victims of crime in non-domestic subsequently met with all three organisations separately cases. [61384] to discuss our proposals for the coroner system. The Secretary of State also met with the Royal British Mr Blunt: I would be happy to meet the All Party Legion on 12 May 2011. Group should I be invited, but the Government’s work to combat retail crime is led by the Home Office and the Crime: Victims All Party Group may prefer to invite my noble Friend Baroness Browning who is the Home Office Minister responsible for this area of policy. I understand that she Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for would be pleased to accept such an invitation. Justice what his policy is on the creation of minimum standards of treatment under the proposed EU Departmental Public Expenditure Directive on victims of crime. [61381] Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Mr Kenneth Clarke: The United Kingdom is already how much his Department has spent on (a) stationery, seen by the European Commission as an example of (b) ministerial hospitality, (c) taxis, (d) pot plants and best practice in this area. My officials have been working cut flowers, (e) lost mobile phones, (f) IT, (g) staff with the Commission to provide evidence and examples training and (h) staff away days since May 2010. of the support we provide to victims. [60241] The Government approaches proposed EU justice legislation on a case by case basis with a view to Mr Kenneth Clarke: I shall provide the hon. Member maximising the United Kingdom’s security, protecting with a reply as soon as possible. our civil liberties and preserving the integrity of our Substantive answer from Jonathan Djanogly to Sadiq criminal justice systems. Khan: The United Kingdom has three months to decide Regarding expenditure since May 2010 by the Department, I whether or not to opt in to the directive, in accordance am able to inform the hon. Member of the following: with protocol 21 to the Treaty on the Functioning of (a) Stationery; (f) IT; and (g) Staff training the European Union. The Department is not able to extract information from these expenditure categories on the period May 2010 to May 2011 from Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for its accounting system without incurring disproportionate cost. Information for the whole financial year 2010-11 will become Justice what steps he plans to take to maintain available once the process of collating and auditing the Departmental provision of services to victims of crime during the Annual Resource Accounts is completed. restructuring of victim support. [61383] (b) Ministerial hospitality The Department incurred the following costs from ministerial Mr Blunt: Despite significant financial pressure the hospitality from May to March 2010-11: £21,941.54; in the period Government have provided £49.5 million to the victims’ April to May 2011-12: Nil. The costs of the events are shown in voluntary sector in 2011-12. Of this, £38 million is the following table:

Date Event £

17 May 2010 Reception with MOJ Director Generals 20.80 25 May 2010 Lord Chancellor’s reception (State Opening of Parliament) 1,208.56 9 June 2010 Reception and dinner for British-Israeli legal exchange 5,102.59 17 June 2010 Reception for key figures in the Legal and Criminal Justice system 854.75 5 July 2010 Lunch with the Russian Justice Minister 117.75 14 July 2010 Interview and lunch with newspaper journalist 12.80 27 July 2010 Justice Committee drinks 26.55 7 July 2010 Legal Aid stakeholder meeting (small providers) 38.20 12 July 2010 Legal Aid stakeholder meeting (large providers) 59.00 13 July 2010 Legal Aid stakeholder meeting (representative bodies) 47.00 1 October 2010 Cost of Opening of Legal Year Breakfast 13,176.00 18 October 2010 Lord Mayor Elect Ceremony 340.00 1 November 2010 Dinner with German Justice Minister 937.54 Total 21,941.54 459W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 460W

(c) Taxis Legal Aid: Greater London The Department’s accounting records do not record expenditure in sufficient detail to allow us to extract taxis from the overall Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for total of “other travel costs” which includes rail, buses, private vehicle hire, taxis and private mileage. Justice (1) how many applications for legal aid are waiting to be determined in the centralised legal aid (d) Pot plants and cut flowers office at Havering magistrates court; [61613] The MoJ does not have a budget for purchasing flowers for its buildings. Some buildings may have plants in reception areas to (2) what the target time is for determination of legal create a welcoming atmosphere for staff and visitors. However, it aid applications in the Centralised Legal Aid Unit at would incur disproportionate costs to go to all the buildings the Havering magistrates court; and what the average time MoJ and its executive agencies occupy (over 800 locations across taken to determine an application in that court was in the UK—mainly courts, tribunals, prisons and local offices) to the latest period for which figures are available; [61614] find out if any trees or plants have been bought since May 2010. (3) how many defendants in each (a) magistrates (e) Lost mobile phones court and (b) Crown court in the Greater London area The Department does not maintain a central record of lost appeared unrepresented in circumstances attributable mobile phones. This information may be held locally and can be to the time taken by the Centralised Legal Aid Unit at obtained only at disproportionate costs. Havering magistrates court to grant legal aid in the (h) Staff away days latest period for which figures are available; [61653] Away days are held mainly for team building, team training or (4) what steps are being taken to reduce the time business development activities. Such events are held off-site taken to determine applications by the Centralised where suitable on-site accommodation is unavailable and where Legal Aid Unit at Havering magistrates court; and by the conduct of the event is facilitated by holding it away from day-to-day business operations. what date he expects all outstanding applications to have been determined; [61654] The Ministry’s accounting systems do not separately quantify expenditure on away days. Costs are subsumed within other (5) how many hearings in each (a) magistrates court categories of expenditure depending on their nature and purpose, and (b) Crown court in the Greater London area have for example conferences/events or training. It would incur been adjourned in circumstances attributable to the disproportionate costs to scrutinise all the individual transactions non-determination of a legal aid award by the which might potentially include away day costs across the Ministry Centralised Legal Aid Unit at Havering magistrates and its executive agencies. court. [61656] All spending on away days is completed in line with the Finance Policy Manual, which is in line with HM Treasury Guidance on Managing Public Money, and states the following Mr Djanogly: As at close of business on 17 June 2011 for away days and team building events: the total number of applications waiting to be determined ″These occasional events are organised to develop working at the centralised legal aid unit at Havering magistrates relationships and achieve Departmental objectives. They are acceptable court stood at 4095. as long as the event can be justified as good value for money and The target times for determination of legal aid can demonstrate development achievements. Costs should be applications in the centralised legal aid unit at Havering ″ reasonable and comparable to the status of the event . magistrates court are, in accordance with the national Wherever possible, taking into account room availability, size HMCTS targets agreed with the Legal Services and flexibility, managers are expected to use Ministry or other Commission, to process 90% of all completed applications public sector buildings for team events and away days rather than within two days of receipt, 95% within three days and using external venues. 100% within six days. HMCTS does not collect performance data on the average time taken to determine an application. Legal Aid: Foreign Nationals The latest performance data against the 90% target (within two days) show performance at Havering as Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State 96.6% for March 2011, 69.9% for April 2011 and 27.4% for Justice under what circumstances (a) UK and (b) for May 2011. Performance against the 95% target foreign nationals are entitled to claim legal aid. [61390] (within three days) is 97.2% for March 2011, 80.8% for April 2011 and 29.9% for May 2011. Performance against the 100% target (within six days) is 99% in March 2011, Mr Djanogly: We have assumed that the question is 95.1% in April 2011 and 49.2% in May 2011. referring to legal aid. HMCTS does not centrally collect data on the number Community Legal Service funding is available to of defendants that appear unrepresented in the magistrates anyone who qualifies, provided that the applicant is court. Nationally, figures are published for the total using the courts of England and Wales and the case is number of unrepresented defendants in the Crown court, within the scope of the scheme. Each application for however, these figures do not provide reasons why funding is treated on an individual basis and is subject defendants are unrepresented. Accordingly, there are to the statutory tests of the means of the applicant and no data held by HMCTS centrally to link the number of the merits of their case. defendants who have appeared unrepresented in When the Legal Services Commission considers circumstances attributable to the time taken by the applications for funding, the applicant’s nationality, centralised legal aid unit at Havering magistrates court residency or citizenship does not play any part in the to grant legal aid. decision-making process. The rules for scope and A detailed and rigorous recovery plan has been put in qualification are in legislation or other documents laid place by the London HMCTS Regional Management before Parliament. Board. The plan includes transferring additional trained Scotland and Northern Ireland operate their own staff into Havering from other parts of the London separate schemes. region. Havering is also receiving some assistance from 461W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 462W other HMCTS regions outside of London. Saturday business plan 2011-12 refers to the consideration of working and overtime has also been approved at Havering thematic reviews, of which conveyancing is one. to further accelerate processing. The LSB considers that the conveyancing process will It is expected that the backlogs will be cleared by the not be affected by the changes to regulation and the end of July at the latest and that Havering, along with liberalisation of the legal services market, but would all other London courts, will return to processing a hope that increased competition will stimulate innovation minimum of 90% of all applications within the two day and improve value for money for consumers. target by that date. During the period of recovery, performance is being closely monitored by local managers Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State and regular reports will be produced for the London for Justice if he will consider the merits of requesting senior management team to ensure that the necessary the Financial Services Authority to report on the effect progress is being made. of alternative business structures on the mortgage Additional resources are also being transferred on a conveyancing process. [61389] permanent basis into the centralised legal aid unit at Havering magistrates court specifically to deal with Mr Djanogly: Alternative Business Structures (ABS) legal aid applications to ensure that London is able to have not yet been introduced. Work is under way for the sustain performance in the longer term. introduction of ABS, but this can only happen when the necessary regulatory arrangements are in place. HMCTS does not collect data on the number of hearings in the magistrates court or the Crown court in The Legal Services Board (LSB) has been working to Greater London that have been adjourned in circumstances develop the arrangements for monitoring and review of attributable to the non-determination of a legal aid the impact of the introduction of ABS. I would hope award. Accordingly there are no data as to the number that the LSB will engage with financial sector stakeholders of hearings in the magistrates court or the Crown court including the Financial Services Authority and the in Greater London that have been adjourned in conveyancing industry as part of its monitoring work. circumstances attributable to the non-determination of Offences against Children a legal aid award by the centralised legal aid unit at Havering magistrates court. Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for Mortgages: Fees and Charges Justice how many individuals have been convicted of offences relating to child sexual exploitation including Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State grooming in each crown prosecution service area in for Justice what assessment he has made of the each of the last 10 years for which figures are available. potential effect of alternative business structures on the [61434] mortgage conveyancing process. [61388] Mr Blunt: Persons found guilty at all courts for Mr Djanogly: I have not made an assessment of the offences relating to child sexual exploitation, by police effect of alternative business structures (ABS) on force area in England and Wales in the last ten years, conveyancing, but the Legal Services Board (LSB) has can be viewed in the table. been considering the impact of ABS more widely on the Data are collected by police force area, which relate legal services sector. I am aware that the LSB’s published closely to crown prosecution service area.

Persons found guilty at all courts for offences relating to child sexual exploitation, by police force area, England and Wales, 20001-102,3,4,5 Police force area 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20086 2009 2010

Avon and 22 10 13 32 33 41 47 73 76 91 96 Somerset Bedfordshire 12 9 4 10 11 20 17 30 22 22 13 Cambridgeshire 465916425035496965 Cheshire 11 9 6 21 21 41 49 48 66 50 48 City of London — 1 — — — 2——— 2— Cleveland 4 8 9 14 17 30 41 39 46 34 51 Cumbria 224922313038243443 Derbyshire 9 8 12 15 34 48 67 82 95 100 82 Devon and 13 23 21 25 33 73 66 88 90 77 95 Cornwall Dorset 4 8 8 17 7 19 33 39 29 34 35 Durham 2 7 11 12 24 37 38 34 61 50 57 Essex 15 7 10 12 12 45 59 50 62 45 68 Gloucestershire 2559 4254935312340 Greater 41 46 37 75 54 148 160 177 193 167 246 Manchester Hampshire 19 32 28 31 61 89 105 105 123 141 135 Hertfordshire 12 11 14 16 19 35 51 43 33 27 58 Humberside 10 12 21 17 37 46 50 61 93 77 127 Kent 21 20 17 26 25 50 65 88 109 97 110 Lancashire 14 28 25 27 48 90 105 127 125 171 149 463W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 464W

Persons found guilty at all courts for offences relating to child sexual exploitation, by police force area, England and Wales, 20001-102,3,4,5 Police force area 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 20086 2009 2010

Leicestershire 11 8 13 17 27 36 43 64 39 56 53 Lincolnshire103121018274539414147 Merseyside 16 19 16 22 33 36 50 43 49 52 61 Metropolitan 45 59 56 121 99 144 197 242 265 311 322 Police Norfolk 7 6 5 10 18 36 56 57 55 51 55 NorthYorkshire99101030243857465543 Northamptonshire 3 8 3 11 14 18 25 45 31 40 65 Northumbria 27 31 17 41 32 62 95 82 86 88 118 Nottinghamshire 24 26 22 20 36 67 66 62 47 67 45 South Yorkshire 21 20 20 35 35 80 80 74 76 64 75 Staffordshire 3 15 13 19 32 48 59 55 60 65 78 Suffolk 5 4 8 15 15 45 43 30 37 38 54 Surrey 524714112232302445 Sussex 1111132319414962707492 Thames Valley 18 11 21 20 28 55 84 80 96 83 119 Warwickshire1354 9171925313341 West Mercia 15 11 19 27 36 65 85 80 41 81 94 West Midlands 40 42 39 72 96 125 170 154 158 145 153 West Yorkshire 43 31 26 42 71 103 114 118 140 128 114 Wiltshire 8 8 6 13 18 24 36 22 28 42 34 Dyfed-Powys 864912251014172030 Gwent 1216191728363532382842 North Wales 777914244827372544 South Wales 21 29 18 33 38 49 68 35 66 72 73 Total 587 637 626 984 1,250 2,110 2,619 2,723 2,911 2,994 3,415 1 Prior to 2004 the following statutes were used under the Sexual Offences Act 1956: sections 5, 6, 12, 25, 26, 28. And Section 1 of the Indecency with Children Act 1960. 2 Sexual Offences Act 2003 came into force in May 2004. Includes all offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 where the age of the victim can be determined from the Act (and where it is under 16) under which the offender was sentenced. This includes: sections 1, 5-12, 14-15 and sections 47-50. 3 The figures given in the table relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 5 In some instances after the introduction of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, defendants may have also been convicted under the Sexual Offences Act 1956. 6 Excludes data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services in the Ministry of Justice

Offences against Children: Reoffenders Parole: Standards

Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice how many people who had previously been if he will assess the adequacy of the number of judges convicted for unlawful sex with a minor have available to serve on parole board panels; and if he will reoffended in the last 12 months. [61454] make a statement. [61646] Mr Blunt: For adult offenders who were convicted of Mr Djanogly: The Parole Board has indicated that it unlawful sex with a minor, the 12 month re-conviction does currently have enough judges to support all the rate is 10.8%. This is based on offences committed panels it can list. Over the last 12 to 18 months we at the within one year of an offender being discharged from Ministry of Justice, have appointed 57 additional judicial custody or commencing a court order in the first quarter members and 48 new independent and specialist members. of 2009. This has enabled the Parole Board to schedule and hear For details regarding the measurement of re-conviction almost 40% more lifer and Indeterminate Public Protection please see: Sentences (IPP) oral hearings panels than previously http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ held. reoffendingofadults.htm Prisoners: Foreign Nationals Sexual offences against a minor include all offences under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 where the age of Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the victim can be determined from the Act (and where it on what date his Department commenced negotiations is under 16) under which the offender was sentenced. on a prisoner transfer agreement with the government This includes offences under sections 1, 5-10 and 47 of of (a) Jamaica and (b) Nigeria; and by what date he the Sexual Offences Act 2003. expects each to be completed. [61364] 465W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 466W

Mr Blunt: Discussions with Jamaica began in 2006 (d) South Lakeland District in each of the last 10 and resulted in the signature of a prisoner transfer years. [61635] agreement in June 2007. The prisoner transfer agreement has yet to be ratified as the Jamaican Government first Mr Blunt: The following table shows the number of needs to introduce enabling legislation. Discussions on offenders sentenced for indictable offences by area and how to facilitate the legislation and the implementation criminal history, 2001-10. These figures relate to separate of the agreement are ongoing. sentencing occasions and therefore an offender may be Discussions with Nigeria on a compulsory prisoner included on more than one occasion, either within an transfer agreement began in 2006. In 2009 the Nigerian area, across areas, or across time. These figures are a Government ratified the Commonwealth Scheme for further breakdown of table Q7.5 in ‘Criminal Justice the Transfer of Convicted Offenders. The Commonwealth Statistics Quarterly Update to December 2010’ which Scheme provides for transfer of prisoners on a voluntary was published on 26 May 2011. basis. The Nigerian Government is currently amending its law to enable it to conclude compulsory transfer Sentencing occasions have been allocated to a location agreements. on the basis of the police force that processed the offence, or in the case of South Lakeland the offender’s The implementation of domestic legislation is a matter address at the time of conviction. Repeat offenders are for the respective jurisdictions concerned and the those with a previous conviction or caution anywhere in Government cannot therefore say when these processes England or Wales. will be completed. These figures have been drawn from the police’s Reoffenders: Convictions administrative IT system, the police national computer, which, as with any large scale recording system, is Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. how many convictions of repeat offenders there were in The figures are provisional and subject to change as (a) England, (b) the North West, (c) Cumbria and more information is recorded by the police.

Number of offenders1 sentenced for indictable offences by area and criminal history, 2001-10 Number of offenders1 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

England2 Total 296,998 311,212 313,915 299,922 287,991 284,746 295,734 306,485 302,867 309,355 convictions Repeat 261,217 276,070 279,428 265,098 254,293 252,307 263,512 274,317 271,228 276,596 offender3 Repeat 88 89 89 88 88 89 89 90 90 89 offender (%)

North Total 52,194 55,104 54,553 52,574 49,796 50,429 53,388 54,046 52,024 54,159 West2 convictions Repeat 47,120 50,063 49,484 47,291 44,690 45,482 48,115 49,338 47,352 49,385 offender3 Repeat 90 91 91 90 90 90 90 91 91 91 offender (%)

Cumbria2 Total 3,060 3,068 3,274 3,463 3,344 3,227 3,272 3,525 3,221 3,195 convictions Repeat 2,708 2,761 2,968 3,119 2,961 2,892 2,920 3,207 2,944 2,901 offender3 Repeat 88 90 91 90 89 90 89 91 91 91 offender (%)

South Total 319 294 321 313 340 313 369 377 329 309 Lakeland4 convictions Repeat 277 260 273 269 291 279 310 338 293 270 offender3 Repeat 87 88 85 86 86 89 84 90 89 87 offender (%) 1 These figures relate to separate sentencing occasions and therefore an offender may be included on more than one occasion, either within an area or across time. 2 Area information based on processing police force. 3 An offender who at the time of their sentence had at least one previous conviction or caution which was committed anywhere in England and Wales. 4 Area information based on offender’s address.

Violent Crimes: Convictions (a) England, (b) the north-west, (c) Cumbria and (d) South Lakeland district in each of the last 10 years. [61636] Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many convictions for violent offences there were in 467W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 468W

Mr Blunt: The total number of defendants found Information on convictions is not collated below guilty at all courts for violent offences in England, police force area centrally by the Ministry of Justice. North West and Cumbria, 2000 to 2010 can be viewed in the following table.

Convictions for violent offences1 at all courts by region, 2000-102,3 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 20094 2010

Cumbria Violence 425 457 460 469 458 543 492 458 484 490 484 against the person Sexual 26 38 46 46 45 55 44 49 44 52 61 offences Robbery 33 19 29 22 23 17 8 16 18 28 27

North West Violence 6,105 6,220 6,341 6,472 6,715 6,949 7,569 7,663 7,006 7,192 7,420 against the person Sexual 578 681 669 689 716 710 746 798 789 757 837 offences Robbery 940 1,005 1,189 1,187 1,136 1,132 1,310 1,343 1,207 1,149 1,067

England Violence 32,378 32,647 34,921 35,279 36,327 38,096 39,047 39,109 39,058 40,782 41,777 against the person Sexual 3,632 3,774 4,054 4,081 4,485 4,483 4,637 4,801 4,838 4,846 5,472 offences Robbery 5,687 6,609 7,497 7,112 7,280 6,908 7,905 8,599 8,227 8,405 8,245 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 3 Excludes convictions data for Cardiff magistrates court for April, July and August 2008. 4 Revisions have been made to 2009 figures to account for the late receipt of a small number of court records. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice

Youth Justice Board: Office of the Chief Coroner Youth Justice Board: Public Finance

Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer to the right hon. Justice what estimate his Department has made of the Member for Tooting of 9 June 2011, Official Report, likely cost to the public purse of abolishing the Youth column 474W, on the Youth Justice Board: Office of Justice Board. [61698] the Chief Coroner, how much he expects to save from the transition of some of the functions of the Youth Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice and the Youth Justice Board into his Department in each year to Justice Board are working together to identify the extent 2014-15; and which measures leading to savings require of the costs involved in the transition process. We will the abolition of the Board as a non-departmental publish a full Impact Assessment over the summer, public body. [61700] alongside the MOJ’s consultation on the Public Bodies Bill. Mr Blunt: It is estimated that the Youth Justice Board will save £6 million operating costs by 2014-15. We estimate these savings to be £l million in 2011-12, £2 million in 2012-13 and £4 million in 2013-14. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE There will be some small direct savings attributable to the abolition although the transition process itself will Conditions of Employment incur some costs which will reduce any planned savings in the initial year of transition. These savings are in Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for respect of the costs of board members who will no Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he longer be required post abolition. We estimate these has had with (a) officials in his Department, (b) the costs to be approximately £250,000 per annum. Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills The key benefit from the decision to abolish the and (c) outside organisations on the potential effects YouthJustice Board will be direct ministerial accountability of changes arising from the review of employment law for youth justice which the Government believes will on matters within his Department’s responsibilities. help to secure better outcomes for young people. [60708] 469W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 470W

Gregory Barker: The Department for Energy and Energy: Prices Climate Change keeps the impact of employment law and on the Department’s responsibilities under review Mr Love: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy at all times. and Climate Change what assessment he has made of The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the effects on the living standards of consumers living my right hon. Friend the Member for Eastleigh (Chris in fuel poverty of recent trends in energy costs; what Huhne), has many meetings with outside organisations steps he is taking to limit energy price rises; and if he and colleagues, including the Secretary of State for will make a statement. [61139] Business, Innovation and Skills, my right Friend the Member for Twickenham (Vince Cable), on a range of Gregory Barker: No formal assessments of the effects topics. of recent changes in domestic energy prices on fuel poverty levels have yet been undertaken. However, an Departmental Buildings assessment of the likely impact of all changes for England will be made on 14 July 2011 when DECC will publish Jesse Norman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011 projections of fuel poverty for England. Energy and Climate Change what the address is of each office property occupied by his Department outside Effective competition is key to ensuring consumers Greater London which it (a) owns and (b) rents; what get the best deal. Government are cutting red tape for the level of utilisation is of each such property; what the smaller suppliers to boost competition in retail markets, capital value is of each such property it owns; and what while Ofgem is tackling other barriers to effective the (i) annual rental cost and (ii) length of lease agreement competition (such as tariff complexity and low wholesale is of each rented property. [61176] market liquidity) in its Retail Market Review. In addition the new Warm Home Discount scheme Gregory Barker: The Department of Energy and will require energy companies by law to give a discount Climate Change (DECC) does not own any properties. on energy bills to more of their most low income and The only space occupied by the Department outside vulnerable customers. The new mandatory scheme will Greater London is in Aberdeen. The address of these replace the previous voluntary agreement with energy offices is: suppliers to provide better focused help to tackle fuel Atholl House poverty. Over the four years to 2015, the Warm Home 86-88 Guild Street Discount scheme will be worth up to £1.1 billion and Aberdeen will help around 2 million households per year. AB116AR DECC occupies two floors of Atholl House under a Fuel Poverty: Pensioners MOTO (Memorandum of Terms of Occupation) agreement with the Department for Business, Innovation Julie Elliott: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Skills (BIS) who holds the lease for the whole and Climate Change how many pensioners in building. MOTO agreements do not have a lease term Sunderland were living in fuel poverty in each of the attached to them. The space rented is fully utilised. last five years. [61992] Under the agreement with BIS, DECC is recharged a single amount which includes, but is not limited to, rent Gregory Barker: Sub-regional fuel poverty data is net of sub-rental income, rates, service charges, depreciation available only at an “all household” level and no splits of building improvements and BIS service charges for of demographics are available. Sub-regional data has staff. For 2010-11 the Department paid BIS £717,432. only been produced for 2006 and 2008 out of the last BIS maintains responsibility for the overall management five years; in 2006 there were estimated to be 18,300 of the building, including lease and sub-lease arrangements. households in fuel poverty in Sunderland, and 24,400 in 2008. Energy: Industry The following table shows the national data for pensioners Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the last five years. for Energy and Climate Change when he last met Households in England in fuel poverty containing at least one person over 60 representatives from UK energy intensive industries; Number (rounded thousand) and how many meetings he has held with such 2004 600 [61217] representatives since May 2010. 2005 800 Charles Hendry: Ministers and officials at DECC and 2006 1,200 across Government are in regular contact with 2007 1,400 representatives from UK energy intensive industries on 2008 1,600 a range of issues. The Secretary of State for Energy and 2009 1— Climate Change, my right hon. Friend the Member for 1 Not yet available. Eastleigh (Chris Huhne), last met representatives from National data for 2009 is scheduled to be released on UK energy intensive industries at the Green Economy 14 July. Council meeting on 7 June 2011, which he co-chairs. Both Ineos Chlor and Tata Steel are represented on this Green Deal Scheme group. Dates and details of all of the meetings the DECC ministerial team have with external organisations Yasmin Qureshi: To ask the Secretary of State for are available through the website via the following link: Energy and Climate Change whether he has made an http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/accesstoinform/ assessment of the likely carbon reductions arising from registers/ministermtgs/ministermtgs.aspx implementation of the Green Deal scheme. [60214] 471W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 472W

Gregory Barker: An assessment of the likely reduction Gregory Barker: Ministers from DECC have met in UK carbon emissions resulting from the implementation with a number of different groups representing the of the Green Deal and energy company obligation solar industry during the fast track consultation. Officials (ECO) policies was included in the impact assessment are also in regular contact with industry representatives. that was published alongside the Energy Bill in December 2010. The impact assessment can be found at: Technical Advisory Panel http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/legislation/energybill/ 1002-energy-bill-2011-ia-green-deal.pdf Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy The analysis indicates that implementation of the and Climate Change pursuant to the answer of 7 June Green Deal and ECO policies would result in a total 2011, Official Report, columns 116-7W, on the technical non-traded sector carbon saving of between 3.3 and 4.9 advisory panel, what reasons were given by the nominee MtCO2e in 2020. Further analysis of the impact of the to TAP by non-governmental organisations for not Green Deal and ECO policies on UK carbon emissions taking up the appointment. [60544] will be published in autumn 2011. Charles Hendry: Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs Nuclear Installations, Dr Mike Weightman, set up the Technical Advisory Panel (TAP) to assist him with Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for technical advice on the emergent findings for his interim Energy and Climate Change what recent representations report on the lessons to be learnt for the UK from the he has received from community groups on his decision incident at the Fukushima nuclear plant. The individual to implement new solar photovaltaic feed-in tariffs for nominated to represent non-governmental organisations installations with a generating capacity over 50 kilowatts. on the TAP felt unable to participate because the position [61244] was not remunerated in the way he wished.

Gregory Barker: Many community groups responded Wind Power to the fast track consultation on the feed in tariff, and their views were considered by Ministers when making Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy their decision. Officials are also in regular contact with and Climate Change if he will assess the effect of grid a range of community groups. connection costs on expansion in the small wind systems sector. [60924] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change pursuant to the answer Charles Hendry: The Government do not hold precise of 30 March 2011, Official Report, column 383W, on information on the grid connection costs for micro solar power: feed-in tariffs, what representations he has wind turbines. Costs for connecting to the distribution received on his Department’s target rate of a five per network are a matter for Ofgem and the Distribution cent. return on solar photovoltaic installations. [61245] Network Operators. Ofgem is currently seeking stakeholder views on connecting to the distribution network, including Gregory Barker: As part of the fast track consultation costs, with the aim of improving the connections experience we received a range of views on level of internal rate of for distributed generation. return required for PV installations. Some considered In addition, a recent study conducted by Arup for 5% IRR to be too low to be viable but many others DECC on generation costs and deployment potential of consider this level to be appropriate. renewable electricity technologies concluded that grid connection for onshore wind developments accounted Solar Power: Industry for approximately 5% of capital costs. The study examined costs for technologies generating up to 5MW. Due to limited data, Arup applied a uniform cost of 5% across Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State all generation levels. Further information on the Arup for Energy and Climate Change how many meetings he study, which was undertaken to inform the 2013-17 had with representatives of the solar industry between Renewables Obligation banding review, is available at: 7 February 2011 and 22 March 2011; and if he will http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/news/pnll_47/ publish the minutes of each such meeting. [61241] pnll_47.aspx

Gregory Barker: Ministers from DECC have met Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy with a number of different groups representing the and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the solar industry during the fast track consultation, however likely cost per MWh of electricity generation from there were no meeting between those specific dates. generating plants on standby to cover for the Officials are also in regular contact with industry intermittency of generation from wind power. [61147] representatives. Charles Hendry: Additional electricity generation required Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State as a result of low wind output or any other reason could for Energy and Climate Change what discussions he be provided by a number of technologies. Our estimates has had with representatives of the solar photovoltaic are that the likely short run marginal cost1 per MWh of industry since (a) the publication of the proposed standby generation ranges from £60 to £80 for gas and tariff changes in March 2011 and (b) his confirmation coal generation without CCS. Non-generation approaches on 9 June 2011 of the tariff changes to take effect from can also be used to balance supply and demand, such as 1 August 2011. [61242] demand response, interconnection and storage. As we 473W Written Answers23 JUNE 2011 Written Answers 474W decarbonise the electricity system further, these non- the unavailability of energy generated through wind generation approaches are expected to play proportionately power. [61303] more of a role as they can often facilitate integration of intermittent generation more effectively than back-up Charles Hendry: Back-up electricity generation, which generation. may be required as a result of low wind output, as well 1The short run marginal cost is the cost of an existing plant as for several other reasons, is provided by other generation, generating electricity (therefore includes variable operating costs, which includes coal, gas and hydro. Non-generation fuel costs, carbon costs but not construction costs or fixed operating approaches (demand response, interconnection and storage) costs). also provide back-up. As we decarbonise the electricity system further, these non-generation approaches are Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy expected to play proportionately more of a role as they and Climate Change what forms of power generation can often facilitate integration of intermittent generation are available to provide standby back-up in the event of more effectively than back-up generation.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 23 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT...... 453 TRANSPORT—continued A63 ...... 464 Public Transport (2012 Olympics)...... 463 Accessible Travel Information ...... 460 Rail Fares...... 461 Airports ...... 453 Swindon to Kemble Railway ...... 456 Cambridge and King’s Lynn Rail Line...... 462 Topical Questions ...... 465 Crossrail...... 458 Urban Traffic ...... 455 First Great Western...... 459 High Speed 2...... 457 WOMEN AND EQUALITIES ...... 469 Humber Bridge ...... 456 Disability Hate Crimes...... 471 London Underground...... 464 Disability Hate Crimes...... 473 Low-carbon Vehicles...... 462 Homophobia (Sport) ...... 470 Motorway Speed Limits...... 454 Parental Leave...... 469 National Air Traffic Services...... 459 Rape Prosecutions...... 474 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 23 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 21WS ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 25WS Apprenticeships (Creation of Opportunities)...... 21WS Energy National Policy Statements ...... 25WS EU Extraordinary Competitiveness Council...... 22WS Oil Stock Release ...... 26WS

CABINET OFFICE ...... 22WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 26WS Government Communication...... 22WS Annual Report and Accounts for the Veterinary Medicines Directorate...... 26WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT ...... 23WS Abolition of Regional Spatial Strategies JUSTICE ...... 27WS Youth Justice Board (Abolition) ...... 27WS (Government Response)...... 23WS Ordnance Survey (Performance Targets 2011-12)... 23WS TRANSPORT...... 28WS Queen Elizabeth II Conference Centre Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (ATOL) (Targets 2011-12) ...... 24WS (Consultation)...... 28WS EU Transport Council ...... 29WS DEFENCE ...... 24WS Libya (Operation Ellamy) ...... 24WS WORK AND PENSIONS...... 31WS Community Care Grants and Crisis Loans ...... 32WS EDUCATION...... 24WS Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Use of Force in Schools ...... 24WS Affairs Council: 17 June 2011 ...... 31WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 23 June 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 377W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Departmental Billing ...... 377W Higher Education: Finance ...... 450W Investment: Sudan ...... 450W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 441W National Enterprise Academy: Private Sector ...... 450W Apprentices...... 441W North Sea Oil...... 451W Arms Trade: Exports...... 442W Oil...... 451W Businesses ...... 442W Rainey Kelly Campbell Roalfe ...... 451W Businesses: Young People...... 445W Self-employed ...... 452W Defence Equipment ...... 445W Short Time Working ...... 453W Departmental Manpower...... 445W Small Businesses ...... 453W Departmental Parental Leave...... 446W Students: Fees and Charges...... 453W Developing Countries: Cotton ...... 446W Students: Finance ...... 454W Employment Schemes ...... 447W Trade...... 454W English Language: Education ...... 448W Trading Standards: Legal Profession...... 455W EU Grants and Loans...... 448W UK Trade and Industry’s Music Export Group ..... 455W Further Education: Attendance ...... 449W VAT ...... 456W General Agreement on Trade in Services...... 449W Green Investment Bank: Location ...... 449W CABINET OFFICE ...... 393W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 450W Crown Relocations...... 393W Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE—continued FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— My Civil Service Pension ...... 393W continued Public Sector: Manpower...... 393W Council of Europe: Manpower ...... 420W Wales ...... 394W Crown Relocations...... 420W Departmental Parental Leave...... 421W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS...... 391W EU Law...... 421W Bishops: Public Appointments ...... 391W Iran: Sanctions...... 421W Church of England ...... 392W Pakistan: Taliban ...... 422W Church of England: Bishops...... 392W Prisoners: Voting Rights ...... 422W Churches: Visits ...... 392W Saudi Arabia: Politics and Government ...... 422W Somalia...... 422W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT ...... 438W Sudan: Investment ...... 422W Audit Commission: Consultants ...... 438W Sudan: Overseas Trade...... 423W Departmental Redundancy ...... 439W Syria: Oil...... 423W Faith Communities Consultative Council ...... 440W Syria: Sanctions ...... 423W Homelessness: Expenditure...... 441W Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 424W Regional Growth Fund ...... 441W Turks and Caicos Islands: Politics and Government...... 424W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 379W Arts...... 379W HEALTH ...... 429W Departmental Redundancy ...... 379W Alcoholic Drinks: Children...... 429W Diamond Jubilee 2012...... 379W Breast Cancer: Screening...... 430W Olympic Games 2012: Smoking ...... 380W Clinical Physiologists: Regulation ...... 431W Olympic Games 2012: Tickets...... 380W Departmental Buildings...... 432W Tourism: Diamond Jubilee 2012...... 381W Departmental Parental Leave...... 431W Departmental Regulation...... 433W DEFENCE ...... 381W Drugs: Misuse...... 434W Armed Forces: Languages ...... 381W Family Nurse Partnership Programme: Licensing .. 435W Belize: Military Aid...... 381W Health Services: Food ...... 435W Defence Equipment ...... 382W Hepatitis: Nurses ...... 436W Defence: Research...... 382W Hospitals: Finance ...... 436W Defence: USA ...... 382W Meat: Hygiene...... 436W Departmental Data Protection...... 383W Mental Illness: Cannabis...... 437W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 383W Midwives...... 437W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 384W NHS: EU Law ...... 438W Falkland Islands: Military Aircraft ...... 387W Tobacco: Olympic Games 2012...... 438W HMS Endurance...... 388W Unmanned Air Vehicles ...... 389W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 415W Warships: Deployment...... 389W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 415W Fixed Penalties...... 416W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER...... 428W Immigration...... 417W Electoral Register...... 428W Immigration: Asylum...... 418W Voting Rights: Prisoners ...... 428W Police: Pensions...... 418W Police: Sonae...... 418W EDUCATION...... 378W Police: South Wales...... 418W Children: Day Care ...... 378W Police: Travel...... 419W Secondary Education: Kingston upon Thames ...... 378W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 377W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 468W Parliament’s Education Service...... 377W Conditions of Employment ...... 468W Departmental Buildings...... 469W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ...... 415W Energy: Industry ...... 469W Gambia: Overseas Aid...... 415W Energy: Prices ...... 470W Zimbabwe: Overseas Aid...... 415W Fuel Poverty: Pensioners ...... 470W Green Deal Scheme...... 470W JUSTICE ...... 457W Solar Power: Feed-in Tariffs...... 471W Chief Coroner...... 457W Solar Power: Industry ...... 471W Crime: Victims ...... 457W Technical Advisory Panel...... 472W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 458W Wind Power ...... 472W Legal Aid: Foreign Nationals...... 459W Legal Aid: Greater London...... 460W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 411W Mortgages: Fees and Charges ...... 461W Agriculture: Regulation...... 411W Offences against Children ...... 462W Circuses: Animal Welfare...... 411W Offences against Children: Reoffenders...... 463W Environment Protection...... 412W Parole: Standards...... 464W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 414W Prisoners: Foreign Nationals...... 464W Recycling: Bottles...... 414W Reoffenders: Convictions ...... 465W Violent Crimes: Convictions ...... 465W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE ...... 419W Youth Justice Board: Office of the Chief Coroner . 467W British Council: Finance ...... 419W Youth Justice Board: Public Finance...... 468W COE Commissioner for Human Rights ...... 419W Council of Europe ...... 419W NORTHERN IRELAND...... 395W Council of Europe: Finance...... 419W Charities: VAT ...... 395W Col. No. Col. No. NORTHERN IRELAND—continued TRANSPORT—continued Royal Irish Regiment: Parades ...... 395W Rescue Services: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 410W Secondment ...... 395W Trailers: Safety ...... 411W

PRIME MINISTER ...... 394W TREASURY...... 424W Legal Advice: Armed Forces...... 394W Air Passenger Duty ...... 424W Big Society Bank...... 424W TRANSPORT...... 399W Departmental Buildings...... 425W Airports ...... 399W Insolvency...... 425W Car Odometer...... 399W Landfill Tax ...... 425W Crossrail Line...... 400W Northern Rock...... 426W High Speed 2 Railway Line ...... 401W Tax Allowances: Uprating...... 426W High Speed 2 Railway Line: Lancashire...... 402W Taxation: Fraud ...... 427W High Speed 2 Railway Line: Liverpool...... 402W Taxation: Repayments...... 427W High Speed Two...... 403W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES ...... 394W Large Goods Vehicles ...... 403W Females: Mass Media ...... 394W London Underground: Industrial Disputes...... 404W Low-carbon Vehicles...... 399W WORK AND PENSIONS...... 395W Railways...... 405W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 395W Railways: Bristol ...... 405W Hewlett Packard ...... 396W Railways: Scotland...... 405W Jobcentre Plus: Travel...... 396W Railways: Theft ...... 406W Maternity Pay ...... 397W Rescue Services ...... 406W Older Workers...... 398W Rescue Services: Closures...... 409W Pathways to Work: Redundancy ...... 398W Rescue Services: Power Failures ...... 409W Pensions...... 398W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Thursday 23 June 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 453] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Transport Minister of State for Women and Equalities

Business of the House [Col. 477] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Backbench Business [29th allotted day] Transport Committee (Coastguard) [Col. 496] Motion—(Mrs Ellman)—agreed to Congenital Cardiac Services for Children [Col. 500] Motion—(Stuart Andrew)—agreed to Wild Animals (Circuses) [Col. 548] Motion—(Mark Pritchard)—agreed to

Dental Bleaching [Col. 587] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Private Finance Initiative [Col. 143WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 21WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 377W] [see index inside back page]