Accounts Volume 11, Issue 1

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ASA ECONOMIC SOCIOLOGY NEWSLETTER ACCOUNTS VOLUME 11, ISSUE 1

VOLUME 11,ISSUE 1 MARCH 2012

Greetings from The editorial INSIDE THIS ISSUE: the Section Chair team of Accounts and I have been collecting syllabi Book Review of Natasha 1 Dear Colleagues: from faculty Iskander’s Creative State: Forty

teaching Years of Migration and Development In August of this year, I took over graduate and Policy in Morocco and Mexico Section Chair from Alex Portes,under by Dan Wang, Stanford undergraduate whose leadership the section grew and University courses in sponsored an excellent program of economic sessions and roundtables at the meetings Discussion with Elizabeth Popp 2 sociology. So Berman about her Creating the in Las Vegas. Economic Sociology has far, we have Market University become one of the largest sections of more than 50 syllabi from the U.S., U.K., by Dan Hirschman, University of the ASA, a pattern that reflects the France, Germany and Russia. We Michigan increasing importance of the field for welcome more submissions. In the spring the discipline as a whole. The number of issue we will have an analysis of this Hungary’s Democratic Crisis: A 4 submissions to the Section’s two awards collection, discerning patterns of recent essay by János Kornai, – the Viviana Zelizer and Ronald Burt consensus and points of departure. introduced By David Stark, prizes – has also burgeoned. In Columbia University response, the Section’s Council created In this issue we feature interviews with a new award for articles only, reserving recent section prize winners, reviews of 5 the Zelizer prize for books starting in Winner of the Ronald S. Burt important recent books, and an Outstanding Paper Award: An 2011-12. The new award is named in introduction by David Stark to an essay by Interview with Christopher honor of Mark Granovetter and will be János Kornai on the decline of democracy Yenkey announced, for the first time, at the in Hungary. By Greg Liegel, University of 2012 ASA meetings. - Woody Powell Chicago

Book Review of David Graeber’s 8 Debt: The First 5,000 Years BOOK REVIEW: NATASHA ISKANDER’S CREATIVE By Alex Roehrkasse, UC- Berkeley STATE: FORTY YEARS OF MIGRATION AND DEVELOPMENT POLICY IN MOROCCO AND MEXICO Interview wih Balázs Vedres, co- 11 By Dan Wang, Stanford University winner of Zelizer Award about Structural Folds In research on the role of relied on funding from that made such remittance By Russell J. Funk, University of out-migration in the migrants sent back arrangements possible and Michigan economic growth of through informal and the socio-political Interview with Sean Reardon 12 developing countries, the formal channels to finance consequences of linking the conversation typically about doing policy-relevant various development economic fates of migrants work in the ivory tower shifts to the importance of projects. In many cases, and their countries-of-origin. By Molly King, Stanford remittances. Countries however, poorly Natasha Iskander's Creative University like Mexico and the understood are the State: Forty Years of Migration Philippines have long historical engagements and (Continued on p. 10)

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INTRODUCING THE 2011-2012 ACCOUNTS EDITORIAL COLLECTIVE

EDITORIAL COLLECTIVE AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY: Daisy Chung Work, Technology and Organization Andrew Isaacson Sociology Molly King Sociology Joachim Lyon Work, Technology and Organization Dan Wang Sociology With help from: - Noah Askin and Greg Liegel at University of Chicago - Russell Funk and Dan Hirschman at University of Michigan - Jim McQuaid at Boston University - Adam Goldstein and Alex Roehrkasse at UC-Berkeley - Kaisa Snellman at Harvard University - Thanks to Tanya Chamberlain for help too.

DISCUSSION WITH ELIZABETH POPP BERMAN ABOUT CREATING THE MARKET UNIVERSITY (PRINCETON UNIVERSITY PRESS, 2012) by Dan Hirschman, University of Michigan Thanks for agreeing to speak industry and academia. These one about both the commercialization with Accounts about your hot policy decisions, in turn, had and lionization of academic science. off the press book, Creating the their origins in a new economics How did you end up choosing this Market University: How Academic of innovation that promoted image? Science Became an Economic academic research as a possible EPB: There’s actually a story behind Engine (Princeton University engine of economic growth. this. The original cover was totally Press). Your book (CMU) Though the logic of science different—it had a digitally argues that in the 1970s and remains vibrant in academia, the manipulated photograph of Princeton 1980s, an older “science logic” logic of the market has on it and a sidewalk that looked like was partially supplanted by a proliferated and increasingly our newspaper stock listings. Although it “market logic” as the debates around basic research looked good, at the last minute the justification for promoting are cast in terms of their legal department got concerned academic knowledge. Through contribution to the economy, not about using Princeton. The cover the cases of biotech, university to a broader commitment to designer quickly put together a new patenting, and university- knowledge or solving social version that had the lion and the industry research centers, CMU problems. shield, but the lion was pointing at a shows how policy decisions DH: Let’s start off with something contraption that looked like it (along with other forces) light: cover art. The book’s cover is a involved alchemy, which didn’t seem promoted practices that delightful heraldic image of two lions to convey the right message. My emphasized and capitalized on holding test tubes and microscopes husband, who used to work in the economic value of under a university seal emblazoned advertising, spent five minutes university research, breaking with the symbols of major world down old barriers between currencies. It nicely sets up the book as (continued on next page)

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DISCUSSION WITH ELIZABETH POPP BERMAN (CONT’D)

cutting and pasting the different politics, looking for what they shared, that turned the tide for them after ten components into this configuration, the which turned out to be that they were all years of effort. They didn’t care about designer polished it up, and that’s the framed as improving technological stimulating the economy; they just version that ended up on the cover. innovation in order to help the thought you needed patent rights to economy. And that was new—not to get inventions into use. But it was the DH: How did you get interested in economists, but it wasn’t a widely economic argument that made the studying the commercialization of influential argument among political difference. academic science? policymakers before then. And that On its own, none of these pieces of argument, of course, came pretty EPB: I was at Berkeley, and the evidence would be that compelling. directly from the economics of Berkeley-Novartis deal was very But you see this in case after case, and innovation. controversial at the time. Novartis had a it’s the sheer accumulation of evidence five-year partnership with the DH: A nuts and bolts question. You that I think is convincing. Also, I Department of Plant and Microbial argue that many of the important policy didn’t set out to argue that ideas Biology in which the department would decisions that facilitated the rise of the matter. I just wanted to know why get $25 million in research funds, and market logic were driven by innovation these policy decisions were made, and Novartis would get first rights to any economics arguments and rhetoric. this framing turned out to be the thing departmental inventions. The money What do you feel is the strongest they had in common. was to be distributed by a committee of evidence for the influence of these ideas I’m a big believer in process-tracing. It three faculty members and two Novartis on policymaking? More generally, how seems like a fancy word for a really representatives. In the uproar that would you advise a student interested in mundane process, but I do think if you resulted, both sides so clearly thought identifying the real policy influence of a go in trying to think about mechanisms they were in the right that they were just particular idea? What makes for a and looking for turning points it’s talking past one another. I was fascinated compelling argument? by the fact that they seemed to be possible to identify the moments when working with completely different EPB: I looked at ten policy decisions. ideas have effects, at least at a local models of what the university should be Nine of them were framed in terms of level. That’s not to suggest at all that doing and how it serves the public good. innovation and the economy, and the interests don’t matter (if we have to The “economic engine” model was only one that wasn’t predated the others separate the two)—I think interests clearly the ascendant one, and I wanted by several years. In six decisions, you matter more than ideas most of the to understand why it had won. could make a pretty convincing case that time. But the way interests matter is innovation arguments were decisive. For shaped by ideas. DH: What first convinced you that the example, Congress came very close to DH: “The performativity of key to understanding the rise of market restricting recombinant DNA research in economics” is one of the big new logic in academia had its roots in the 1977. Everyone was completely freaked trends in economic sociology. arguments of innovation economics? out that scientists were going to let loose Influenced by science studies some kind of deadly chimera. If you look EPB: That actually came post- scholarship, some economic at the hearings around that debate, you dissertation. My dissertation mostly sociologists have recently focused on can see exactly where the turning point tried to evaluate the relative role of the influence of economic research on is: when Genentech’s Herbert Boyer universities, industry and government in their objects of study. CMU also gets up there and announces that they’ve moving academic science toward the emphasizes the “political power of managed to produce somatostatin. From market. The process was clearly state- economic ideas” (to borrow Hall’s then on, the whole debate changes: now driven, but what still puzzled me was phrase). How do you situate your it’s about protecting a nascent industry. that the policies that encouraged this work against this trend? move were so different, politically (Susan Wright made this argument long speaking—they didn’t seem to have before I did.) In the Bayh-Dole case, the EPB: I think that the emphasis on the anything in common, except that they all progenitors of the act told me, way that technical devices are happened in the same 1977-85 time unprompted, that reframing the bill in assembled and stabilized is very useful, window. So I dove deeper into the economic terms was one of the things (continued on next page)

PAGE 4 ACCOUNTS VOLUME 11, ISSUE 1 and can (and should) be adapted to policy sense, but was trying to avoid the baggage same period (primarily the 60s to the 80s) contexts. The CBO’s decisions about how that comes with the word “capitalism.” in several domains, including tax policy, to score the cost of legislation is a great Marion Fourcade talks about antitrust policy, and possibly education example of this. In the past there’s been a “economicization,” which is accurate, but policy, as well as science & technology lot of struggle over whether to use doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, and policy. It works very differently across dynamic scoring of tax bills (where you “economic rationalization” isn’t quite domains, and the hope is that through take into account the economic impact of right, either, since that implies an increase comparison I can identify a variety of legislation on revenue) or static scoring in formal rationality that isn’t necessarily mechanisms and learn something about (where you don’t try to calculate such involved. I guess at this point I’m stuck how different institutional configurations effects). Which method you choose has with market logic. affect this process. I’m trying to look at big political consequences, but after the these broader discursive trends as well as DH: You end the book by noting the decision has been made, for most people some of the more technical effects. My connections between the rise of the it’s black-boxed—it’s just “what the bill working theory is that a lot of the changes market logic in academic science and costs.” of the last 35 years that we talk about as other forms of the economic neoliberalism aren’t particularly But I think it’s much harder to talk about rationalization of education. For example, neoliberal. I think they’re tied to performativity in the Callon/MacKenzie President Obama noted in his State of the economics. sense in politics because the effects are Union address that “ a good teacher can much less direct. If a new economic increase the lifetime income of a model makes some subset of people think classroom by over $250,000” and that about a policy issue in a slightly different “Higher education can’t be a luxury -– it Hungary’s way, which then changes the political is an economic imperative that every Democratic Crisis: debate so that one interest group has a family in America should be able to A recent essay by little bit of an edge, that’s pretty different afford.” What connections do you see from a bunch of financial traders making between your story and this broader trend János Kornai decisions that are explicitly taking a of focusing on the economic value of By David Stark, Columbia formal economic theory into account. education? Did one precede the other, are Which is maybe why the performativity of they mutually reinforcing, separate but University economics seems to be turning into the convergent, or something else entirely? social studies of finance—because that’s Democracy is in crisis in Hungary. With a EPB: Oh, they absolutely go together— where you see it happening. commanding super majority in there is a much broader trend toward Parliament, the Fidesz government, led by DH: You contrast the rise of the market economic arguments becoming the most Prime Minister Viktor Orban, has enacted logic in academia to the broader neoliberal (only?) legitimate justification for a new Constitution and a series of related turn of the 1980s. You define market government action. (See Mark Smith’s The crucial laws. Some of their clauses have logic as “seeing the purpose of an activity Right Talk, for example.) In the case of provoked uproar in the European in its capacity to create economic education, there are again clear Parliament in a hotly contentious debate value,” (173) and then note that connections with the discipline of this past month. Soon after taking office, neoliberalism involves not just the economics: human capital theory turns the Orban government had moved quickly promotion of economic concerns but also education into an economic investment to seize control of the mass media; more a reliance on free-markets, while the rather than, for example, a process of recently it has taken measures that would various practices you identify often rely acquiring skills and knowledge. It’s not greatly reduce the autonomy of the on a substantial amount of state that human capital theory is wrong. It’s Central Bank. intervention, and are not particularly that when that language becomes so focused on competition. Is market logic dominant that we can no longer have a One can point to adminstrative actions the best way to describe this trend? Why serious discussion of, for example, the taken against its critics (e.g., closing use that phrase and not, say, “economic civic value of education, then we’ve lost research institutions that were not towing logic,” to emphasize the rise of economic something important. the party line). But beyond these specific rationalization rather than a reliance on attacks, one can also sense a darker and DH: What’s next for you? Are you competitive markets? even more dispiriting tone. For, in planning any follow-ups or extensions to addition to the fear that the disobedient EPB: I would be fine with calling it the arguments in CMU? will be dismissed, the government’s economic logic, or perhaps the logic of EPB: Well, this is exactly where I’m propaganda organs seem to exclaim, “You economics. Really I meant the logic of going. I’m now looking at how economics must applaud.” That is, it is not enough capitalism, in the Friedland and Alford has shaped U.S. policymaking over the that university administrators, museum

PAGE 5 ACCOUNTS VOLUME 11, ISSUE 1 directors, local government officials, and “Political Holes in the Economy” will ordinary citizens silence their dissonance; appear in the American Sociological Review they are also expected to overtly approve. and is available here.) Kornai can be Winner of the expected to extol the virtues of market de It is in this context that the distinguished Ronald S. Burt -centralization. But the essay is most Hungarian economist, János Kornai, has eloquent in voicing the importance of Outstanding published an unprecedented five-page diversity within the sphere of civil society. STUDENT Paper article in the January 28, 2012 issue of Yes, mergers and centralization might Népszabadság, the country’s leading daily Award: An seem to eliminate waste and promote newspaper. Almost exactly a year ago Interview with efficiency. But the resulting destruction of (also in Népszabadság, January 6, 2011) diversity creates greater lasting damage. Christopher Kornai had made an earlier public Speaking of the institutions of civil Yenkey statement, “Taking Stock,” in which he society, he argues: “horizontally pointed to damage to civil liberties and coordinated decentralization is much By Greg Liegel, University of human rights, arguing that Hungary had more efficient in the long term than Chicago moved from a democracy to an autocracy. centralized, vertical coordination.” The most recent essay, “Centralization and the Capitalist Market Economy,” János Kornai needs no introduction to examines the Orban government’s scholars who studied state socialism and centralizing tendency. (A complete its aftermath. Many will know him from version of the English translation is his sharp criticisms of centralized planning available here.) in Overcentralization (1953), The Economics of Shortage (1980), and The Socialist Kornai’s essay is wide-ranging and Economy (1988) as well as for his equally includes many examples of such a trenchant criticism of neoclassical centralizing tendency. In finance: the economics in Anti-Equilibrium (1971). ability to demote the president of the Sociologists of my generation were Central Bank. In human services: county exposed to his ideas: in the mid-1990s he hospitals as well as disaster protection was the economist most frequently cited would pass from control of the county self in the major journals of the discipline.¹ -governance authorities to the central For a personal and intellectual journey of government. In primary and secondary his extraordinay life (escaping from an education (including Budapest’s prized Arrow Cross labor gang as a teenager in system of gymnasia): actions to similiarly Budapest, becoming a young communist, deprive these institutions of de-centralized repudiating that dogma, later refusing all local control. In universities and research dogmas as an economist outside any camp, institutes: actions leading to the Chris Yenkey never attending a university yet ending up centralization of research networks and as a Full Professor at Harvard after never Christopher Yenkey is an Assistant the crushing of faculty governance in the being allowed to teach in Hungary) see his Professor of Organizations and Strategy at selection of rectors. And in the field of memoirs, By Force of Thought (2007). My the University of Chicago Booth School of public foundations: most of these review essay of that book, “Opportunities Business. He is the 2011 winner of the abolished and their assets and decision- of Constraints” (Theory & Society 2007) Ronald S. Burt Outstanding Paper Award making functions transferred to state could serve as a brief introduction to the for his article “Building Markets from authorities. work of this still very active public Ethnically Fractionalized Networks: Looking to the economy, Kornai points to intellectual. It is available here. Recruiting New Investors into Kenya’s how “crisis taxation” is a tool for Nairobi Stock Exchange”, which examines ¹James N. Baron and Michael T. Hannan, discrimination against firms that are not in the diffusion of the practice of “The Impact of Economics on the government’s circle – just as shareholding through Kenyan society as a Contemporary Sociology.” Journal of government tenders are a tool to reward process of social contagion. More Economic Literature 32 (3) (Sept., companies that are “close to broadly, Chris studies the construction of 1994):1111–1146. Fidesz.” (Balazs Vedres and I provide an nascent financial markets in developing account of how partisanship migrated David Stark is the author of The Sense of economies, modeling processes of new from the sphere of politics to create Dissonance: Accounts of Worth in Economic investor recruitment into emerging stock politicized business groups in the Life (Princeton University Press, 2009). exchanges, behavioral differences between contemporary Hungarian economy. Our inexperienced investors and their

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institutional counterparts, and the effects with probably the best data in the world. Tanzania first and climbed Kilimanjaro of fraud and price volatility on continued I remember we had monthly data on the and then took the bus to Nairobi, but participation in the market. His research number of commercial truck drivers on when I got there I bought a cell phone draws on institutional theory, diffusion the road going back to the 1950s- it was and I just started cold-calling people. I analysis, organizational theory, and just incredible! So, I had taken this early thought I was going to have to translate sociological theories of trust in market notion of how markets are situated in what I meant by being interested in exchange. Before becoming an economic different social contexts and now I had theories of institutional change… Well, sociologist, Chris was a professional this bigger toolkit to examine how they were completely up to speed with cyclist and worked as a research analyst at markets work on a macro scale. But after Doug North. It was amazing! The the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City. a while, the somewhat predictable focus World Bank was on this big education on abstract theory that you find in offices campaign where they were talking about How did you become interested in full of economists started to wear on me, stability and institutional infrastructure. economic sociology? but I never lost my interest in where Kenya is one of those countries that are I raced professionally full time from 1991 markets come from and how they really cyclical; for example, the NSE was until early 1998. As a professional develop. I started searching around for a the world’s best performing stock market athlete, you don’t have that much time way to push forward on my interest in in 1994, but then it went stagnate for off. But you do go to the grocery store markets, but without losing the social years after that. And the Kenyans were and that sort of thing. And I really angle that interested me in the first place; really interested in this idea of enjoyed going to markets, whether they I actually found economic sociology understanding how institutions influence were grocery stores in Belgium or street through Google searches of ideas that I the economy as a way to even out these markets in China or South America. One was interested in. highs and lows. I was there asking of the things I found fascinating was what questions, fundamental questions, about Where did the idea come from to write was on the shelves. What is on the shelf the exact same thing that they wanted your dissertation on the development in a Belgian grocery store is very different answers to. of the Nairobi Stock Exchange? than what is on the shelf in a Chinese How did you get the data for your open-air market. And then you start I was working on a project as a Research project? looking at the prices. Who’s valuing Assistant for Victor Nee. He was looking what? What is cheap in this place? What at the link between predictable I was fortunate enough to get NSF is dear in this location? I got really bureaucracy and financial market funding, which enabled me to go back to interested in these things. So I guess development. We plotted a bunch of Nairobi for 5 months in 2008. I was what got me interested in economic data on a scatter plot one day, with looking for indicators of different share sociology, even though I didn’t know it at bureaucratic predictability and ownership patterns – what’s the the time, was an interest in questions bureaucratic quality indicators on the y- ownership structure like on the Nairobi around the construction of developing axis and capital market size on the x-axis. Stock Exchange. Fortunately, Kenya has markets. We put in a trend line and a lot of a reporting requirement that every listed countries are right on that trend line, but company has to provide a hard copy How did you become an economic some countries are way above it and printout of all their investors and the sociologist? some are way below it. We picked a number of shares that each investor When I stopped racing in 1998, I had a couple of these cases to get a sense of owned each month. And if you can find couple years of undergrad to finish up. I who’s an outlier in a positive and negative it, that’s a lot of data. For a couple of got a degree in economics, but I wasn’t way. Kenya was an extreme outlier in a months, my research assistant and I were really satisfied that I had acquired the positive way. It has this dysfunctional digging through storage closets… moving toolkit that I needed to examine the bureaucracy, but it also has a very quickly plastic Christmas trees and car tires out of questions that interested me. I applied growing capital market. I thought, the way. Then one day, I was out at mainly for research jobs, and I wound up “Wow, that looks kind of interesting”. lunch with the IT director from the stock at the Federal Reserve Bank in Kansas So, I carved that out as my dissertation exchange and he said, “Some of us have a City. My first week there was 9/11. I idea. little bet going on about when you are just going to ask to see the database”. was at the Fed for two years working on I got some seed grant money to fly over Since late 2004 the market has operated the policy response to 9/11. I was the to Nairobi to see if a project was feasible. on an entirely electronic platform, so macro forecaster, which meant that I was I went over in February 2007 for 2 access to this database would give a working with the Federal Reserve’s weeks. I didn’t know anybody. Nobody complete record of all ownership and systems model of the largest economy in returned emails before I went there. But transactions- a much more complete human history. This model had I still got on the plane and went to version of what I’d been trying to something like 2800 variables in it… Nairobi. Well, to be honest, I went to

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construct with the hard copy records. that are more tolerant of different shocks, 2005 to more than 1.6 million by the end such as political and social instability or of 2008, and they had no idea where these There is this separate organization called periods of inflation? In other words, people lived because they don’t have the Central Depository and Settlement who, at the first sign of trouble, sells their anybody who can take the time to build a Corporation, basically the stock market’s shares and goes home versus those who major database like this. back office organization that moves shares see turbulence as opportunities to buy and moves payments between people’s Everyone, myself included, had assumed undervalued equities. Having access to accounts to clear the transactions. It also that the early investors would be based in the individual-level data for all the maintains the database. And in the year the big cities and then this practice would domestic and foreign investors, you between my visits, the fourth person I had spread through the countryside, that it know, who can’t think of 50-plus originally interviewed – the head attorney would diffuse geographically. But this research questions that data like that from the stock market – had been was totally and completely wrong. But could speak to?! promoted to CEO of the Central when you have these data and can load Depository and Settlement Corporation. The big thing I am really excited about them into ArcGIS and watch new We had been talking regularly and had right now is that I will head to Morocco investors pop up over the map as they established a rapport. She basically told to make a presentation to an association come into the market over time, all of a her IT guy to ask me if I wanted to look at that represents the Clearing and sudden you see that they were spread the database. After that, things just kind Settlement agencies from all African and throughout the country the whole time. of exploded… Middle-Eastern stock markets. I’ve got What was happening was that new an hour to show representatives from investors were deepening participation in In what direction is your future these same clearing and settlement different locations, but it wasn’t spreading research headed? agencies in 27 other markets what I’ve geographically. That changes your entire The paper that won the Burt Award was done in Kenya, to sell them on my conception of how your market has on ethnic networks. But the ethnicity methodology, and to say to them, “I can grown, and who your new constituents component is based on town-level ethnic do the same thing for you that I’ve done are relative to your old constituents. And populations. That is pretty good, but not for the Kenyans if you give me access to then I walk them through this social as good as knowing the ethnicity of the your data.” That takes us away from just a network methodology and show them investors themselves. As a result, I am single case study, which is interesting but how existing investors are sending off going back to Nairobi because they’re limited in its generalizability, and allows signals to potential investors about the letting me code the ethnicity of each me to build a multi-national database of value of being involved in the stock investor. They gave me access to the emerging markets. I have a couple of side market. And this whole concept of how family name on each account, which is a projects that have nothing to do with a social network can spread information direct measure of tribal affiliation, and I emerging stock markets, but the fact that through the country was totally new to had 8 RA’s code the 20,000 most stock markets are these intendedly them. I mean, we all have this commonly occurring family names, which rational constructs popping up all over the assumption that word gets out, but not captures about 94% of all investors. world, and I have such great access to how. This gives them a specific Given the confidentiality issues involved, I data, in such a wide variety of contexts, mechanism. have to work with this data in their just make them extremely interesting. So more specifically to your question, one offices, but when I come back I‘ll have How can these countries benefit from of the things we’re doing is developing a coded the tribal affiliation of most of 1.6 your work? plan to use cell phones to remind Kenyan million investors, which will allow me to investors that they own shares. It’s deepen the work that I was doing for the A message I want to get across to current actually a pretty big problem- Kenyans Burt Award paper. I also have data on grad students is that a key reason I have have so many challenges they face daily, defrauded investors in the market- about access to the people and the data that I do and we see a pattern in the data where 60,000 investors that get cheated in one is that my academic interests are aligned investors look like they’re forgetting that form or another, and I’ll use this data to with the interests of policy makers in they own shares if they go more than a examine the role of trust in the market. these countries. For example, in year or two without trading. And this has In another project, I am starting to look at November 2011, I went back to Nairobi an impact on the market since you lose the participation of foreign investors. and gave a series of presentations to policy the liquidity that you gained by recruiting Kenya is a volatile place. It is pretty -making groups, including the stock them in the first place. So the idea is to stable for sub-Saharan Africa, but it still market regulator, etc. Slide number two send little text message reminders out gives outsiders a lot of reasons to be was a map of where their investors lived randomly into the network, not to tell concerned. So the question is, do foreign (I’d merged their data with GIS). Their them how to trade, but to simply remind investors differ in their risk tolerance? jaws hit the floor. They had no idea. them that they own an asset, and that they Are there particular types of outsiders They went from 140,000 investors in

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should go and check and see how much money “acts primarily as a social that asset is worth. We think this will Forgive Us Our currency, to create, maintain, or sever help the investing population become relations between people rather than to more accustomed to share ownership as Debts: A Review of purchase things” (158). Full-blown an active process, and if you remind them David Graeber’s human economies are characteristic of that they already own a valuable asset, it Debt: The First many primitive societies, but elements of is likely to build a positive image around them are omnipresent. Debts are rarely the practice since they got into the 5,000 Years calculated in human economies, and market to make money in the first place. (Melville House, indeed calculation is often shunned. Instead, debts are constantly being So, I hope this presentation at the 2011) exchanged with no expectation that the meeting in Morocco will be a good way books will ever really balance. Debts to show stock exchanges that are below By Alex Roehrkasse, UC-Berkeley sustain an open system of obligations that Kenya in their development what they binds society together. can learn from the Kenyan experience over the past several years. But it is not As its title suggests, David Graeber’s just about what they can lean from the On the other hand are commercial debts, Debt: The First 5,000 Years is an ambitious Kenyan experience. It is also about which are categorically different from piece of synthetic scholarship. Graeber getting them to pool their resources in a obligations in two key respects. First, aims to reconstruct the conventional research effort so that they can learn from they imply a mutual understanding of history of debt in order to shed new light each other. And then you are right back initial equivalence between contracting on why it has played such a crucial, if to this question about where markets parties, who agree for the period of the confusing, role in the development and come from. How do prices in Cairo debt to become unequal. Second, when success of human societies. Through an develop relative to prices in Lagos? these debts are monetized they are made omnivorous review of the anthropological calculable, and therefore in principle and historical literatures, Graeber exactly repayable. The conflation of What does winning the Burt Award marshals an eclectic array of evidence to abstract social obligation and concrete mean to you? support the book’s central conceit: “The commercial debt begins to occur when very fact that we don’t know what debt repayable debts become effectively Its been a lot of fun to work on a project is, the very flexibility of the concept, is interminable. In ancient Mesopotamia, that speaks to the issues that I was the basis of its power.” More often than birthplace of the interest-bearing loan, originally interested in a way that is not, he suggests, it has been harnessed to impoverished debtors were often forced academically valuable, in a way policy justify social relations founded on to offer up their loved ones as debt makers are finding a lot of value in. But violence. The state, the church, and the pawns. Seizing such precious collateral the icing on the cake is getting patriarch alike have consistently relied on required two key ingredients: a big stick recognition from your colleagues in ways the language of debt to legitimate and a good excuse. Graeber traces the like the Burt Award. It has just been coercive actions by linking indebtedness curiously strong relationship between fantastic. It is a great recognition. So to blameworthiness. militarization and the rise of monetized make sure you send your paper in! You societies across ancient history. He also have absolutely nothing to lose! Where does the ambiguity over debt explains how such violence was justified: come from? Graeber points to a “Since creditor and debtor are ultimately fundamental conflation of two equals, if the debtor cannot do what it incompatible notions of “debt.” On the takes to restore herself to equality, there one hand, all humans find themselves is obviously something wrong with her; it cosmically “indebted” to a whole host of must be her fault” (121).

parties: to a divine creator, to one’s cultural and linguistic ancestors, to one’s For Graeber, the Axial Age proves to be a parents, and to the social world that particularly important turning point in makes one’s existence possible. It is clear, the history of debt. Taxation and state however, that these debts cannot be administrative growth, expansionist wars repaid in full. Instead, social life consists and mass coinage systems created new in embracing these debts and finding markets in which “it was possible to treat creative ways to express them. This even neighbors as if they were dynamic is exemplified by what Graeber strangers” (238). These drastic social calls the “human economy,” in which transformations led to the development

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and proliferation of many of the world’s how humans and the relations that bind forgiveness, his call for “some kind of major religious and philosophical them can only be commodified once they Biblical-style Jubilee” (390) today is systems—in particular, Confucianism, are violently decontextualized— disappointingly utopian. Buddhism, Christianity, and Greek Graeber’s oversight of virtually all of the materialist philosophy—all of which contemporary economic sociological Graeber’s perspective does point to grappled with how properly to conceive literature is unfortunate. opportunities for advancing sociological of the idea of debt in relation to that of work on debt. Empirical examples like moral responsibility. These thought At other times, however, this distance American families walking away from systems failed to develop a clear solution, affords him fresh perspective. For underwater mortgages and Greek instead trying to draw strict lines example, in a chapter titled “A Brief deliberations over default provide rich between the domains of religion and the Treatise on the Moral Grounds of sites for testing some of Graeber’s claims. market. But as suggested by the Economic Relations,” Graeber’s unique More generally, exploring how and to etymological affinity of most Western fusion of practice theory with anarchist what effect various actors work to words for “debt” with those for “fault,” philosophy helps him show how subtle enforce, transform, circumvent or “guilt” and “sin” (121), the reality is that changes in the everyday experience of undermine the moral discourse of debt these traditions ultimately had the debt can transform communistic and non-repayment may prove to be a fruitful consequence of making a highly moral exchange relationships into naturalized trajectory for cultural approaches to matter of the belief that all debts “must” hierarchies. This approach is particularly economic sociology. In an era in which be repaid. This legacy, argues Graeber, convincing when demonstrating how the debt has taken on such a poisonous has endured through the ages of empire, moral discourse about debt was character, researchers and policymakers industry and structural adjustment. transformed during its rationalization in should be searching for achievable models the early modern West: while most debts of debt relations that, when properly Graeber writes for a popular audience, among commoners remained congenial, conceived and institutionalized, could and his incisive style reflects this. The administrators and merchants in the halls actually generate social solidarity rather reader will find less of an explicit logic to of government and the great commercial than disintegrate it. Graeber’s book has the interrelation of theory and evidence houses were disproportionately dealing the merit of showing us that this has in than a cornucopia of illuminating with lending disputes, fraud and fact been possible, if not exactly how it is anecdotes and counterintuitive delinquency, leading them to adopt and possible today. In this sense it exemplifies interpretations. In cultural obsessions institutionalize a criminalized the denaturalizing role of history in with sexual purity, medieval ideas of understanding of indebtedness (329, guiding social analysis: the way we think corporate personhood, and even the rise 334). Ultimately, Graeber’s impressive about debt is not an immediate derivative of saying “please” and “thank you,” command of anthropological theory and of its economic form, but rather has a Graeber sees the language of debt at heterodox economic history allows him, distinct if interrelated cultural origin work. These examples mostly serve to in the tradition of Mauss and Polanyi, to story. Nor is our thinking about debt demonstrate exactly how longstanding synthesize a compelling story about inconsequential: Graeber’s book shows and widespread the relationship between where debt as we know it comes from—a convincingly that moral discourse about debt and moral confusion have been feat that most other writers have fallen debt has had sweeping if subtle societal throughout world history, and how short of either in terms of empirical effects throughout world history. If in the practical and intellectual attempts to validity or internal coherence. current moment this discourse seems ripe resolve the interrelation have mostly been for contention, Graeber’s insights will red herrings. Graeber’s work is also The timeliness of Debt is obvious. surely be of great relevance, and clearly informed by a sophisticated Graeber, who has been the scholarly face potentially of great value. frustration with how debt has been of the Occupy movement, clearly intends theorized. This leads him largely to turn for his history to redirect conversations David Graeber teaches anthropology at away from the mainstream literature: his about how the myriad social crises Goldsmiths, University of London. He is book is admittedly conceived “less to pertaining to debt should be also the author of Toward and engage with it directly than to show how reconceptualized: Need we really pay our Anthropological Theory of Value and Lost it has consistently encouraged us to ask debts? Says who? Might we all be better People: Magic and the Legacy of Slavery in the wrong questions” (389). At times, off if we didn't? Unfortunately, Graeber’s Madagascar. this stance is a hindrance. Given the latent suggestions for solving contemporary centrality of the “embeddedness” concept debt issues are fairly impoverished, if Alex Roehrkasse is a Ph.D. student in to his argument—indeed, some of the sparse. Though he can cite numerous sociology at the University of California, book’s most compelling arguments show historical instances of mass debt Berkeley.

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(Wang’s Review of Iskander from p. 1) Iskander calls this process "interpretive draw comparisons with Morocco in the engagement" (p. 12), an analytic theme second half of the book, which tells how Development Policy in Morocco and Mexico that is revisited over and over in her the involvement of Chicanos in the (Cornell University Press, 2010) narratives about how micro-mobilization development of the Mexican state of recontextualizes the relationship between on the part of both migrants abroad and Zacatecas spread into other regions. migration and development in a broader the state resulted in new economic Although just as compelling as her narrative about the role of the state in arrangements for development over the description of interpretive engagement in engaging with migrants abroad. The book course of forty years in Morocco and Morocco, this part of the book hints at stands as a substantial contribution to Mexico. Unlike 'negotiation', Iskander one possible weakness of the monograph's research on global migration in terms of argues, 'interpretation' connotes a organization. The research design is rethinking the tensions that migrants generative dialogue between multiple comparative, but the reader is often left experience with their homelands and the parties, who themselves are not wondering about the critical insights importance of the states in engineering beholden to any goal or agenda. It is Iskander intends to offer with her policies that continually redraw the limits precisely because of the openness with juxtaposition of Mexico and Morocco's of their political reach outside their which the states of these two countries migration policies. While reminiscent of geopolitical borders. Iskander's work and their migrants were brought into other great works of comparative represents a thoughtful and nuanced entry conversation that they were able to craft ethnography, like Clifford Geertz's to the recent cascade of research on policies that were sensitive to both the examination of Islam in Morocco and transnational identity (Portes, et al 2003) migrants' role and local sociopolitical Indonesia in The Interpretation of Cultures, and the global circulation of skills and conditions of economic development. Iskander sometimes gives the reader few knowledge (Saxenian 2006). or ambiguous lessons to take away from The stand-out narrative that brings this Creative State offers twin narratives, her analysis of migration policy in two process into focus can be found in focusing primarily on how starting in contexts. Namely, how do the divergent Chapter 5, which details migrant 1963, conversations between migrants and experiences of Moroccan and Mexican involvement in pushing forward rural two sending states—Morocco and migrants generalize to other development electricity projects in an especially Mexico—ultimately generated innovative projects around the world? Iskander only neglected region of Morocco, known as policies for successful regional economic offers a brief, partial answer to this in her the Souss (the first half of the book development decades later. 1963, as conclusion. focuses on Morocco). Following the Iskander explains, serves as a natural layoffs of Moroccan factory workers Rather than a critique, the above starting point, because it was a watershed living in France in 1974, many returned comment is more of a suggestion for an year for both countries in terms of to their home country. Forming an extension of the overall research agenda migration policy. In Mexico, the decades- organization that eventually became about migration and development, which long bracero program, which recruited known as Migrations et Développement, Iskander's book bespeaks. Indeed, Creative thousands of Mexican farm workers into this collective of Moroccan returnees States underscores, in an innovative way, the United States, had just ended, while in sought the assistance of local villagers, the oft-paraphrased insight from Rogers Morocco, 1963 was when the country cross-border sources of funding and Brubaker that migration is not only began to sign agreements with European technology (mostly from Europe), and characterized by people crossing borders, countries such as France and Belgium to eventually the Moroccan state to build but perhaps more importantly, by borders export its workers abroad. In subsequent the infrastructure for locally connected crossing people. years, the Mexican state, in particular electricity networks across the Souss and during the Echeverría administration, Natasha Iskander is Assistant Professor other poor regions. The creative turned a blind eye to increasing flows of of Public Policy at New York University’s collaboration during the expansion of the undocumented migration into the U.S., Wagner School of Public Service. project into more desolate regions is while the Moroccan government, under epitomized by Iskander's description of Dan Wang is a PhD student in Sociology King Hassan II, sought to create and the "iterative exchanges between at Stanford. His dissertation analyzes empower the monitoring apparatus for its technicians and villagers", which took knowledge flow and reverse migration, migrants abroad. Against this backdrop, place "as the villagers sweated alongside discerning which factors enhance or retard Iskander chronicles how the (often tense) EDF electricians to erect the distribution returnees’ contributions to their home engagement and disengagement between network, and in the evenings, when the countries. state operatives, migrants abroad, visitors stayed in villagers' houses, shared economic institutions, transnational their meals, and followed their daily associations, and locals, ultimately resulted rhythms" (p. 129). in successful regional economic development projects in both countries. Iskander implicitly invites the reader to

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Interview with impact? RJF: Your recent work on structural folds has been undertaken in the Balázs Vedres BV: One key area of application is the context of large Hungarian design and management of business about “Structural businesses. Is there something in project teams. I am already working with a particular about the structure of the Folds: Generative consulting firm, Gordio Ltd, putting the Hungarian business community that Disruption in structural fold idea to use in a large made it especially valuable for telecommunications firm. The challenge Overlapping uncovering new concepts for historical there was that with declining profits from network analysis? Groups,” calls and text messages, the firm was By Russell J. Funk, University of looking for new ways to re-conceptualize BV: The most interesting aspect here Michigan their business towards data services. This was a historical dimension: that we were required new ideas from within, and a able to trace the evolution of business close collaboration between technical and groups from the very beginning. Our Balázs Vedres (Central European marketing expertise. There we saw data starts when the first boards of University) and co-author David structural folds as a much better directors are formed, when the first Stark (Columbia University) were alternative to heavy handed mixing of this shareholding companies are issuing the awarded the 2011 Viviana Zelizer expertise in project teams. first stocks. This in itself is really valuable – we can identify early path Prize from the Section for their RJF: Do you find evidence of structural dependencies, and the assembly of the article, “Structural Folds: Generative folds in your own collaboration first business groups. As these groups Disruption in Overlapping patterns? Groups” (American Journal of are forming, there is also a whole BV: I think for academics structural folds Sociology, 2010). The paper develops systemic transformation with shifting are all around, we use them all the time, new methods of historical network uncertainties – first there are political without even thinking of it. Places like the analysis and uses data on Hungarian uncertainties about how and when Santa Fe Institute are actually "folds- businesses to offer insights into the political actors can interfere in the life of making factories." For me the particular relative tradeoffs of brokerage and firms in a newly democratizing polity. fold that is the most interesting now is cohesive ties for group performance. Then economic uncertainties rise high as between a community of network science Balázs agreed to speak with Accounts the Eastern markets collapse in the that is more natural science-based, and my about the award winning paper and transformational recession. Then research collaborations with sociologists. some of his ongoing research. institutional uncertainties soar as dozens The whole idea to look at overlapping of crucial laws about the economy are RJF: Let's start out with the basics. groups came from a community coming into force. To see how network What is a structural fold? identification method (the Clique structures adapted to mitigate one kind BV: A structural fold is a network position Percolation Method, CPM) developed by a of uncertainty lock in and seal the fate of at the overlap of cohesive groups. It is a group of physicists that I was frequently a business group in another kind of point of creative tension, that allows for talking with. There are many methods out environment is great material for the actor at this network position to there that you can adopt (Peter Csermely historical economic sociology. recently counted 103 methods for recognize possibilities to combine group- RJF: Are there any special identifying cohesive network groups), but based resources from both groups. In considerations that need to be taken it takes a closer participation in a research contrast to a tie to a neighboring group that into account in moving between levels group to recognize the potential in one. channels information about knowledge and of analysis? Do you expect the basic Then as we were looking at graphs resources there, a structural fold gives mechanisms that drive structural together with David Stark that we made more immediate access to these. It both folding to be similar in with CPM, we started to see something makes actors aware of a potential new interorganizational and peculiar about those groups that overlap combination, and empowers them to interpersonal networks? realize it. with others. We took CPM and the logic behind it (for this I needed to be a close BV: This is the most exciting test of the RJF: In developing the concept of a enough member of the physics group), and idea – to see whether mechanisms of structural fold, you drew on ideas and combined it with our long time interest in structural folding work at the level of methods from disparate fields like historical network evolution (for this I interorganizational networks and sequence analysis, historical sociology, needed to be a member of the research interpersonal networks. Currently we and management. Where do you hope group with David), and the idea of are working on a broader project with the concept will have its greatest structural folds was born. David Stark and other team members

PAGE 12 ACCOUNTS VOLUME 11, ISSUE 1 cognitive complexity – how can actors datasets. with three new domains, three new cases interpret unfamiliar information? With a Russell J. Funk is a PhD candidate in for structural folds: project teams in video large historical dataset of analysts sociology at the University of Michigan. game design (with Mathijs de Vaan), publishing expectations about stock His research examines how social networks collaborative networks in the history of performance, we can identify their and space (geography) influence innovation recorded jazz music (with Charles performance (the accuracy of their in organizations, specifically Kirschbaum), and project work-teams in prediction) as a function of their position nanotechnology startups. He is also multinational corporations (with György in the attention network. What makes an interested in developing new Sági). Our preliminary findings about analyst accurate when she reports about a methodological tools for identifying video games show that having structural stock for the first time? We suspect that breakthrough innovations. folds within the team contributes to a the attention network (what stocks do two higher ranking of the game the team analysts pay attention to at the same time) produces. exhibits similar group properties (where RJF: Do the temporal dimensions of the cohesion and folding matters for charting Relating Research process work differently at different unfamiliar territory). But this is really just and Policy: the start. levels of analysis? Interview with BV: It is too early to say, but I suspect that BalázsVedres' research furthers the Sean Reardon temporality regarding structural folds vary agenda of understanding historical with the social times of various fields. dynamics in network systems, combining about doing policy That is, with business groups a year is a insights from historical sociology, social -relevant work in meaningful unit of time (to change a tie, a network analysis, and studies of complex the ivory tower firm need to elect a new board member, systems in physics and biology. His maybe have a shareholder meeting), so contribution is to combine historical By Molly King, Stanford University that it makes sense to trace group sensitivities to patterns of processes in time Sean Reardon and colleagues’ research on dynamics at an annual timescale. With with a network analytic sensitivity to income inequality and scholastic jazz, for example, the relevant timescale patterns of connectedness cross- achievement has recently received may be weeks, or a month. Albums are sectionally. Over the last decade Vedres substantial attention in the press, including released and reviewed throughout the has developed data collection and analysis a number of articles in the New York Times. year, and collaborative ties can be made techniques to handle large historical He agreed to sit down with Accounts to and dissolved within a year. Similarly for work-teams in multinationals, a team might form, propose a product, be evaluated, and dissolve in the space of a few weeks. Now, time is not necessarily strictly proportional with how big or small a group was. Think of academic collaborations – even though we have similar sized teams as in jazz or multinationals, social time here (at least in the social sciences) is much slower. From conceptualizing a project to writing and winning a grant to writing and publishing an article probably on average four to five years must pass. (We wrote the grant application for the project that became structural folds with David Stark in late 2005, the article in AJS appeared in early 2010.) RJF: What’s next? BV: We are currently working on a new grant application to start out from the structural folds idea to analyze the attention network of financial analysts and BalázsVedres stocks. We are moving into the domain of

PAGE 13 ACCOUNTS VOLUME 11, ISSUE 1 share his thoughts on doing policy- somehow that’s how it works. It’s a aware of, and put it into concrete terms. relevant research and advice on sharing matter of the idiosyncrasy of time. Some So there’s great value to putting in some it with the public. people are quick at thinking about what stylized facts about how the world kind of research would be really relevant works: what’s happening to achievement MK: Did you start out actively now and could make an impact on policy. gaps, or what’s happening to seeking to disseminate your results But there’s a tradeoff between a long, segregation, or what’s happening to or did the media find your work and slow, scholarly enterprise that’s really income inequality, what’s happening to contact you? about knowledge building and theory and family structure or the kinds of SR: The thing that got a lot of press in implications of theory and this pragmatic neighborhoods where the typical person the fall on income segregation was goal of what people need to know about in with this income or that income live. work we started years ago, Kendra order to make better policy choices. You don’t need a fancy regression model Bischoff, my coauthor and I, really or even a theory in some ways – you And then there’s the ‘what do people more for an academic audience. We need the right kind of data. And that can need to know so that they will make the published an article in AJS and we were stimulate lots of discussion around an policy choices I want them to make.’ doing some work for the Russell Sage issue sometimes, and it can also suggest There’s a way in which it’s on a spectrum Foundation for a book about what the hypotheses about why things are the way from scholarship for scholarship’s sake to 2010 census tells us. So, they had an they are in the world, or what might be advocacy towards a very particular end idea that it should be disseminated reasonable policy responses to that. So I and research done in service of that. And widely but we started this work long think that kind of work can get out there I’m not super comfortable with the ‘I before that in thinking academically. Of and be part of the public and policy know the answer and let me find some course we would like people to pay discourse and have an influence that way. evidence to convince you of that’ attention to it, so we were happy, but it You don’t control what the answer is, advocacy approach. And I also don’t like wasn’t sort of started as “let’s write a but you can get things onto the agenda by the super disconnected scholarship for policy brief and draw attention to the doing a good careful job of describing scholarship’s sake. That’s why I like being issue.” some aspect of social reality. So I think in an Ed school, because it’s a place where that kind of work is really good. MK: Have you shared your findings you get to do serious scholarship but with governmental policy-makers you’re doing scholarship around real- And then it’s also really good to do work and, if so, how have they reacted? world problems. At Ed schools, there’s that says when people have implemented SR: I haven’t been super dialed into always someone asking you ‘so what does this kind of practice or policy, here are Washington. I’m a little envious of that mean for what I should do?’ You have what the effects have been. So, some people who know how to do that to figure out how to walk a line, and say, I state did this thing and here’s what because I don’t quite know how to do don’t know what to do, I don’t know the happened there, relative to what would that. I am happy when the media pays answer, but I know here’s what the have happened if they hadn’t done it. Or attention like they did. But I don’t quite evidence says and here’s where we don’t maybe in some schools they did this or know who to go to. There are some have evidence yet, and here’s how to think that. So being able to answer questions people who seem to know which smartly about it. about what will happen with this or that policy is also really useful. So both of congressional staffers to talk to or know MK: Thinking more about the those kinds of work tend to have some who to talk to at OMB or HUD. I’m descriptive versus prescriptive leverage in the real world just because not hooked in like that so I operate on approaches, would you say that your they either tell you what the world looks this naïve and what I know to be false approach is to work on real-world like in ways that make you think about it assumption that if you do good research problems but focus on being more or they tell you what’s our best estimate that’s policy-relevant, someone will pay descriptive about them? How do you of what will happen if we do this or that. attention to it. That turns out not to be juggle the idea that what we conceive I like both of those kinds of work. true empirically. In the grand scheme of of as morally acceptable changes over things it’s sort of idiosyncratic what gets time? MK: You say once the results are out paid attention to. The reason that there, people make their own SR: I think there’s enormous value in research got paid attention to in the fall conclusions. Have your findings ever doing really good descriptive work about was that it came out when the Occupy been taken and interpreted in a way what’s going on in the world. So our movement was all over the news and that sort of upset you as a citizen, but segregation research – it described a long- the media really wanted stories about as a scientist you couldn’t say term trend that a lot of folks weren’t very inequality, so it was a story they wanted anything about it? Any sort of at the right time. And so I think negative outcomes you weren’t

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expecting? waiting around, wandering in the forest. And those people who are great I think to be an academic you have to be translators of ideas into everyday notions SR: A lot of the work I’ve done has curious, you have to love the challenge of are very impressive. I think academics been about racial segregation and trying to figure out how you can learn could learn something from them. whenever that work gets any kind of something that we don’t know the Academics are often worried about, ‘if I public visibility, I always get emails answer to yet and be creative about how don’t tell you every single nuance of my from people saying ‘why are you telling you do that. But, we also like to make a thing, you’re not going to understand it.’ me who I have to live near?’ I’m not difference in the world, many of us, so I But in fact if I tell you too many nuances, telling anyone where they have to live, think picking topics that you think really you’re not going to understand it. You but people react to this sort of thing. matter and sticking with them. But you don’t want to do damage to the thing, People have different opinions about can’t expect everyone is going to pay but you want to convey the big picture. the value we should place on things like attention to everything you do. It’s a learnable skill, and I don’t think it’s integration or inequality. So you can’t discipline-specific. control that, but you can look at the I think it’s also very helpful to learn how data and see, does it look like there are to talk about the work you’re doing in terms that the average, reasonably benefits or harms to integration or Sean F. Reardon is an Associate inequality. informed but not academically inclined person could understand. So, when you Professor of Education and Sociology (by MK: Do you have advice for go back home to your old high school courtesy) at Stanford University. He is academics who want to make their and run into your old friends, can you also the director of the Stanford work more policy-relevant or get tell them why what you’re doing might Interdisciplinary Doctoral Training their findings out into public matter in the world? I always try to Program in Quantitative Education spheres, especially in an figure out if I could explain it to my Policy Analysis. His research focuses on environment that may not support mother, who is smart but not an causes, trends, and consequences of that kind of activity? academic – or somebody who is a New racial/ethnic segregation and socioeconomic inequality on education SR: Definitely different departments York Times reader. And practicing achievement. He also works on will be more or less supportive. In explaining what you’re doing and why developing methods of causal inference public policy schools, Ed schools, or it’s important also can help you realize and inequality measurement in public health schools, people are very that maybe some of the things you’re educational and social research. comfortable with policy-relevant work. doing may not be very applicable. Which And then high-theory political science, isn’t to say you shouldn’t do them, Molly King is a first-year Ph.D. student sociology, or economics some people because sometimes it’s hard to figure out in Sociology at Stanford, and a graduate are interested in theory. And theory is the direct policy relevance of something. of Reed College. good, theory helps us understand the And learning to write an op-ed article, world when we don’t have the data to which I’m not very good at, to take know everything, which is usually the something you’ve worked on and turn it case. into a 500-word op-ed that makes an argument about why it’s important. But I think you’ve got to find some Learn how to talk not just to your issues you really care about. And they scholarly peers about the work but to won’t always be the popular issues on talk about it in a bigger sense. I did this anyone’s policy agenda. I’ve heard it interview with a public radio show called said by a number of people that if you On Point, and the interviewer Tom pick an issue and stick with it your Ashbrook interviewed me about the whole academic career, it will be income segregation article. And I was so relevant maybe 3 times in your career. impressed by his ability – he had read the This cycle will come around and people stuff, he knew what he was talking will care about the thing you’re focused about, he had smart questions, but he on. And in some ways the best thing always could explain it in a way that was you can do is become really really tangible to someone like the kinds knowledgeable, an expert in an area of neighbors you have on the other side you care deeply about. Then when and of the fence when you’re out in your if that becomes important, you’ll be the backyard having your BBQ. It’s turning go-to person on that. That’s not very these segregation measures into a way of satisfying because you do a lot of talking about what it might mean to you.

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ASA SECTION ON ECONOMIC SOCIOLOGY

OFFICERS, COUNCIL MEMBERS, AND COMMITTEE CHAIRS

Section Officers

Chair Woody Powell Stanford University

Chair-Elect Vicki Smith UC – Davis

Past Chair Alejandro Portes Princeton

Secretary-Treasurer Leslie McCall Northwestern University

Council Members

Tim Bartley Indiana University Jens Beckert Max Planck-Cologne Alya Guseva Boston University Dan Hirschman University of Michigan Greta Krippner University of Michigan Yuval Millo London School of Economics Monica Prasad Northwestern University Martin Ruef Princeton University

Committee Chairs

Alya Guseva Membership Tim Bartley Burt Prize Greta Krippner Granovetter Prize Monica Prasad Zelizer Prize Bruce Carruthers Nominations

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