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Dáil Éireann DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COISTE UM CHUNTAIS PHOIBLÍ COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS Déardaoin, 7 Samhain 2013 Thursday, 7 November 2013 The Committee met at 10.00 a.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy John Deasy, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, Deputy Sean Fleming, Deputy Derek Nolan, Deputy Simon Harris, Deputy Kieran O’Donnell, Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, Deputy Shane Ross. DEPUTY JOHN MCGUINNESS IN THE CHAIR. 1 BUSINESS OF COMMITTEE Mr. Seamus McCarthy (An tArd Reachtaire Cuntas agus Ciste) called and examined. Business of Committee Chairman: Are the minutes of the meeting of 24 October 2013 agreed to? Agreed. We have received correspondence since our meeting on Thursday, 24 October. No. 3A.1 is correspondence, dated 24 October 2013, from Mr. Colin Bray, chief executive officer, Ordnance Survey Ireland, providing additional information requested by the committee at its meeting on 17 October. This correspondence is to be noted and published, with the exception of the details of the lease for Tuam and Sligo. One issue that needs to be followed up on is the payment of board director fees, irrespective of whether board members attend meetings. We will include this matter in an upcoming report. No. 3B.1 is correspondence, dated 6 September 2013, from Mr. John Moriarty on the Na- tional Aquatic Centre. The correspondence is to be noted. The evidence given to the committee on the contracts entered into by Campus and Stadium Ireland was subsequently corrected and, therefore, no further issues arise. No. 3B.2 is correspondence, dated 10 October 2013, from an anonymous source regarding St. Catherine’s special needs school, County Wicklow. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy forwarded to the Health Service Executive for a note on the issues raised. Deputy Simon Harris: This is a school in my constituency. I have raised this matter before and stated the HSE will have to comment on it when it attends the committee on 14 November, in particular the audit undertaken which has not been published but which has been widely leaked to the media. Chairman: That was noted. No. 3B.3 is correspondence, dated 18 October 2013, from Ms Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, providing a note previously requested on issues raised by Mr. Michael Barrett, Lakeside Marina, Athlone. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy forwarded to Mr Barrett. No. 3B.4 is correspondence, dated 18 October 2013, from Mr. William Treacy, Portlaoise, County Laois on Horse Racing Ireland and the Turf Club. The correspondence is to be noted. No. 3B.5 is correspondence, dated 24 October 2013, from Mr. Tom Moran, Secretary Gen- eral, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, providing a note previously requested on issues raised by Mr. William Treacy. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy forwarded to Mr Treacy. Deputy Sean Fleming: When will representatives of Horse Racing Ireland or the Turf Club attend the committee? With other issues, we could raise this matter concerning Mr. Treacy. Chairman: We will arrange it in the work programme. No. 3B.6 is correspondence, dated 22 October 2013, from Mr. Brendan Ryan, chief execu- tive officer, Courts Service, providing a note previously requested on issues raised by Mr. Kevin Fitzgerald regarding Digital Audio Recordings-Courts Service. The correspondence is to be 2 COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS noted and a copy forwarded to Mr. Fitzgerald No. 3B.7 is correspondence, dated 22 October 2013, from Mr. Seán Ó Foghlú, Secretary General, Department of Education and Skills, regarding a note previously requested on issues raised by Mr. Owen Mullins regarding education grants. The correspondence is to be noted and a copy forwarded to Mr. Mullins. No. 3C.1 is correspondence received on 31 October 2013 from Mr. Adrian Neilan, chief executive officer, Bord na gCon, enclosing briefing material on matters to be considered at the meeting on Thursday, 7 November 2013. The correspondence is to be noted and published. No. 3C.2 is correspondence received on 5 November 2013 from Mr. Adrian Neilan, chief executive officer, Bord na gCon, enclosing the opening statement from Mr. Phil Meaney. The correspondence is to be noted and published. No. 3C.3 is correspondence received on 5 November 2013 from Mr. Adrian Neilan, chief executive officer, Bord na gCon, enclosing his opening statement. The correspondence is to be noted and published. Deputy Sean Fleming: Before we move on from correspondence, I am most concerned about correspondence we have not received. At least five weeks ago we had the Accounting Officer for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform before the committee. He was asked to provide answers to simple questions that he did not have on the day. Most of these answers could have been provided in 24 hours. There is no reason all the information requested could not be supplied within seven days. Five weeks have now passed and there have been several further requests. I am proposing that if we have not received the information requested by next week, we ask the Accounting Officer to present himself for ten minutes at the beginning of the following week’s meeting to explain why he has not supplied the information. It is not about him giving the answers but to explain why an Accounting Officer for a Department with which this committee liaises has not responded to requests for information. While people may think this is extreme, often committee members ask questions, are told they will receive a reply but do not obtain one. As a matter of form, from now on if an Accounting Officer does not sup- ply information requested after four weeks, he or she should be automatically brought back for ten minutes to explain why he or she has done so. It would probably be the best way of ensuring we receive the answers and information requested. Perhaps the secretariat will go through all of the meetings held since the summer and find out what information we have not received from Departments. Secretaries General should be put on notice that if we do not receive it within the next week, they are to come before the committee to explain why they have not responded. Chairman: Is any other member offering? Deputy Sean Fleming: Can we agree to write to the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to explain that we need the information requested? It is six weeks since our meeting with him. It is not good enough. Chairman: The Deputy’s suggestion that the Secretary General or Accounting Officer auto- matically appear before the committee if information requested is not received by the commit- tee within four weeks is reasonable and should be standard practice. On the specific question of the information sought from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, it is setting a bad example for other Departments when this committee is trying to set a good example to ensure there is a good response publicly to queries raised by it. I suggest we send a copy of the 3 BUSINESS OF COMMITTEE Official Report of the meeting to the Secretary General. It is reasonable to suggest that if we do not receive a reply by next Thursday, he be asked to come before the committee next Thursday. I do not believe he can let it go another week, as it will just continue on until Christmas. Deputy Eoghan Murphy: Effectively, Deputy Sean Fleming’s proposal is that if informa- tion requested from a Secretary General is not presented within ten days, he or she will be back before the committee in three weeks. Chairman: Yes, they will have ten days in which to reply. Deputy Eoghan Murphy: That is fair. Chairman: That would help us in our work. We will send a transcript and if there is no response, we will set aside some time next Thursday. I think it will take more than ten minutes but we will get the explanation then. Does any other member wish to raise matters? At the meeting with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, I asked that we would get some assurance that people involved in whistleblowing in the Department would be given appropriate protection in their employment in the spirit of the legislation that is coming forward. I cited a number of cases where employees of the State are being sidelined and are not being given work to do. They are victims simply because they are whistleblowers. I relate this in particular to FÁS. I was assured at that meeting that this would happen and that they would be given the appropriate protection in the spirit of the legislation but I am aware that this is not happening. I am asking the clerk to write to the Secretary General reminding him of the commitment he gave and asking him to ensure that this commitment is extended to FÁS given recent developments there. In respect of correspondence that came before us under the Department of Education and Science where the community-based Tipperary Hostel project was provided with funding amounting to €4.2 million, I reported to the meeting that I went down to see that project. The old church that is there has been properly and appropriately restored. The floorboards in it are now lifting and there is much maintenance to be done on what I imagine was a very good job undertaken by those involved. The main project of the building adjoining the church is half- finished. The €4.2 million that was invested in that project by the Government and taxpayer is now lying idle.
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