PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES
Public Bill Committee
LEGAL AID, SENTENCING AND PUNISHMENT OF OFFENDERS BILL
Third Sitting Thursday 14 July 2011 (Morning)
CONTENTS Written evidence reported to the House. Programme order amended. Examination of witnesses. Adjourned till this day at One o’clock.
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The Committee consisted of the following Members:
Chairs: MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE,†JIM SHERIDAN
† Blunt, Mr Crispin (Parliamentary Under-Secretary † Llwyd, Mr Elfyn (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) of State for Justice) † Reynolds, Jonathan (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ †Brake,Tom(Carshalton and Wallington) (LD) Co-op) † Buckland, Mr Robert (South Swindon) (Con) † Slaughter, Mr Andy (Hammersmith) (Lab) † Crockart, Mike (Edinburgh West) (LD) Soubry, Anna (Broxtowe) (Con) † Cunningham, Alex (Stockton North) (Lab) † Truss, Elizabeth (South West Norfolk) (Con) † Djanogly, Mr Jonathan (Parliamentary Under- Turner, Karl (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab) Secretary of State for Justice) † Wallace, Mr Ben (Wyre and Preston North) (Con) †Watts,MrDave(St Helens North) (Lab) † Fovargue, Yvonne (Makerfield) (Lab) † Wright, Jeremy (Lord Commissioner of Her † Goodman, Helen (Bishop Auckland) (Lab) Majesty’s Treasury) † Green, Kate (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab) † Gummer, Ben (Ipswich) (Con) Sarah Thatcher, Committee Clerk † Hinds, Damian (East Hampshire) (Con) Lee, Jessica (Erewash) (Con) † attended the Committee
Witnesses
Emma Scott, Director, Rights of Women
Ruth Bond, Chair, National Federation of Women’s Institutes
Jerry Petherick, Managing Director Offender Management, G4S Care and Justice Services
Kate Steadman, Director of Government Strategy, Sodexo Justice Service 73 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 74 of Offenders Bill Public Bill Committee Ordered, That the Order of the Committee of 12 July be amended as follows— Thursday 14 July 2011 in the Table in paragraph (2), in the second entry for Thursday 14 July, in the third column, leave out ‘Serco;’—(Mr Djanogly.) (Morning) The Chair: We have representatives to give evidence [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] from Rights of Women and the National Federation of Women’s Institutes. Will you introduce yourselves to Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment the Committee? of Offenders Bill Emma Scott: My name is Emma Scott, and I am the director of Rights of Women. Written evidence to be reported to the Ruth Bond: I am Ruth Bond, and I am the national House chair of the National Federation of Women’s Institutes. LA 15 Citizens Advice Bureau LA 16 Sheffield Law Centre Q164 Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): We LA 17 MASS (Motor Accident Solicitors Society) are pleased to be taking evidence from you this morning. LA 18 Southall Black Sisters The Bill does not mention women, but in various LA 19 National Aids Trust (NAT) ways women will be affected, and I wondered whether LA 20 Family Law Bar Association you had any views on whether its effects would be LA 21 JUSTICE different or disproportionate for men and women, or LA 22 Refuge Action whether women would be disadvantaged in any way by LA 23 R3 proposals in the Bill. LA 24 JUSTICE Emma Scott: We are really clear that there is going to LA 25 ICAEW be a disproportionate effect on women. We know that LA 26 Citizens Advice Bureau—additional women make up a significantly greater proportion of memorandum those who receive civil legal aid, particularly around family and immigration law, which are the areas we are LA 27 Community Law Partnership particularly concerned about. LA 28 Shelter We, as an organisation, provide legal advice to women, LA 29 John Eekelaar and we speak to women on our telephone helplines on a LA 30 Liberty daily basis. Those women come to us not just with one LA 31 Paul Rumley, Partner, WithyKing particular issue resulting from a relationship breakdown; LA 32 Advice Services Alliance they come to us wanting advice about child contact LA 33 Linskill Solicitors proceedings, financial relief proceedings, welfare benefits, LA 34 Law Centres Federation debt and immigration law. LA 35 NSPCC There are a whole range of issues that women need LA 36 Standing Committee on Youth Justice advice on. We are very, very concerned that removing legal aid for those issues will significantly disadvantage LA 37 Refugee Children’s Consortium women. Our particular concern is around domestic 9am violence. Our concern is that the definition of domestic violence in the Bill will not allow all women who The Committee deliberated in private. experience violence to have access to family law legal 9.1 am aid, and that that will put women at risk. On resuming— Ruth Bond: I reiterate what Emma said. We are a women’s organisation and, hence, we deal with women. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice We have a vast raft of research that we have conducted (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): On a point of order, Mr Sheridan. on this subject. I think it does disproportionately, shall At the beginning of Tuesday’s proceedings the hon. we say, outlaw women, because they are the ones, we Member for Bishop Auckland claimed that the Council have found from our research and from what our members of Her Majesty’s Circuit Judges was not giving evidence tell us, who need to go for legal aid, because they are so because it would not attend at a given time. I want to often violated. correct that. I understand that in fact the council was invited, but declined the invitation, as it felt that it is for Q165 Helen Goodman: On the sentencing provisions, politicians to decide such things, and not for the council the Government are exempting domestic violence cases to comment. It passed on its thanks for being invited to from the new rules on bail. In other words, if a person give oral evidence. has been accused of domestic violence, that is a reason The Chair: That has been recorded. for remanding them in custody. The definition used in that part of the Bill is, “physical and mental violence”. Ordered, Are you content with that as a specific enough test? That if, on Tuesday 19 July, references to specific times in the Have you thought about that part of the Bill as well? Standing Orders of this House apply as if that day were a Wednesday, paragraph (1)(c) of the Order of the Committee of Emma Scott: We have not looked specifically at the 12 July shall be amended by leaving out ‘10.30 am and 4.00 pm’ sentencing provisions, but what we are really clear about and inserting ‘9.00 am and 1.30 pm’.—(Mr Djanogly.) as an organisation is that, where legislation talks about 75 Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 76 of Offenders Bill domestic violence, there needs to be a unified definition Q170 Elizabeth Truss: Does it have to be legal advice? of violence. In our view, it should be the definition that Emma Scott: There is a place for legal advice, yes. has been adopted by the Government in their cross- Ruth Bond: I would say the same. We do not delve Government strategy and action plan to tackle violence into this in any great depth, but we certainly need to against women and girls. That is the Association of have other welfare things in there. The definition of Chief Police Officers definition of domestic violence, how you can get legal aid is too narrow. It needs to be which has been adopted by many other Departments, widened, and this should be included. the Crown Prosecution Service and the UK Border Agency. The Ministry of Justice itself has adopted it in a number of documents. There needs to be uniformity Q171 Elizabeth Truss: Do you think that our legal aid in any definition of violence in any legislation. We are bill is too high in this country? concerned that any provisions relating to bail adequately Emma Scott: I started to talk about that. You need to protect women. We know from the cases of Jane Clough look at the costs of not providing legal aid, particularly and Clare Bernal that there are very significant risks in the area that we are concerned about: domestic when perpetrators are released on bail—fatal risks to violence. We know from evidence that has been updated women. Therefore, any provisions relating to bail in recently that the costs of domestic violence, when women these kinds of cases need to be as strong as possible. are not able to get support and advice to make safe arrangements, for child contact for example, and resolve Q166 Helen Goodman: At the moment, women are financial and property disputes and become independent more likely to receive longer sentences for the same of those relationships— serious crimes as men. Would you support the insertion of a women’s champion into the criminal justice system? Elizabeth Truss: Domestic violence is within the scope, That is one of the recommendations in Corston that the and the definition has been widened. It seems to me previous Government did not get around to implementing. from what you are saying that we could allocate almost Emma Scott: Corston is not a particular issue that we an infinite amount of money to legal aid because there have been looking at, so I probably would not want to are no areas that you think the money should not be comment on that. spent on. If you are saying that domestic violence is a Ruth Bond: I am afraid that is the same with me. priority—I agree that it is, and we have widened the scope for it—let us ensure that we spend the money on that. Those eligible for domestic violence legal aid will Q167 Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): also be eligible for things such as ancillary support On the subject of legal aid in general, Britain has one of through the divorce proceedings. We are being more the highest legal aid bills per capita in the world. One of generous in that area and less in some of those other the reasons for that is that a lot of issues, which would areas where there seems to be a rational reason to cut normally be dealt with in other countries through standard costs. I think that the case would be better put if you appeals procedures or through non-legal advice, end up focused on the areas you thought really ought to be being dealt with by lawyers. You mentioned the specific protected rather than just saying, “We need legal aid for case of welfare. Is it not the case that, in order to get absolutely everything.” welfare claims properly dealt with, there are appeals I just want to make one more point about divorce procedures in the welfare system, there are other sources proceedings. The Government have put forward proposals— of non-legal advice that women could go to, and, in fact, all we are doing by involving lawyers is just ratcheting up costs and not actually benefiting the end recipients? The Chair: Order. Elizabeth, I do not want to be rude, Emma Scott: Again, welfare benefits is not a particular but can you get to a question because a number of area of specialism. In general, in terms of the costs of people are waiting? legal aid, we would urge the Government to look at the costs of not providing legal aid to women, particularly Q172 Elizabeth Truss: Sorry. My question is: do you the costs of not providing legal aid to women who are support the Government’s proposals for bringing forward affected by violence. cost support in cases where there is no legal aid and there is an economic imbalance between the two parties? Q168 Elizabeth Truss: That is rather different from a Emma Scott: May I come back to the point about case about welfare benefits, which is one of the areas domestic violence? I think that it is misleading at best to you mentioned in your earlier answer. say that there has been a concession on domestic violence Emma Scott: As I say, that is not our particular focus in family law. The proposals as they are set out do not of concern in relation to the Bill. Our particular focus is adequately reflect women’s experience of domestic violence vulnerable women who are affected by violence. and the way that they deal with it in their lives. They set out criteria that require women to have been through statutory routes to address the violence, to have obtained Q169 Elizabeth Truss: So you would support the a criminal conviction, to have applied for a non-molestation removal of legal aid for dealing with welfare benefits. order or to have been referred to a multi-agency risk Emma Scott: No, absolutely not. As I said at the assessment conference—MARAC—and we know that beginning, women face a myriad issues when there is that simply is not the experience of women affected by relationship breakdown and one of them is ensuring domestic violence. that they have access to advice on and support with If I may just draw your attention to the Women’s Aid welfare benefits, so that they are able to challenge annual survey from last year, of the 17,500 women who benefit decisions. had taken the very drastic step of leaving their homes to 77 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 78 of Offenders Bill flee the violence they were experiencing—women who it places victims at risk of further violence and abuse. It irrefutably had been experiencing domestic violence—only puts the perpetrator back in control in terms of being in 10% had obtained a criminal conviction for violence, contact with the victim. It can cause re-victimisation of only 20% had applied for and obtained a non-molestation the victim. We know that women feel under huge pressure or an occupation order and only 19% had been referred to seek agreement in family law cases. We also know to a MARAC. Our own survey, which we carried out in that they feel huge pressure to attend mediation and the run-up to our consultation response to the proposals, conciliation appointments and that they feel pressured showed that 53% of women responding had not reported into reaching agreements that simply are not safe for the violence to the police and had not applied to the them and their children, or which are not in their court for a protective injunction. children’s interests. The 2005 inspection report by Her We are very clear that the proposals will not catch all Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary contains a clear the women who are affected by domestic violence. Those recommendation about seeking mediation agreements who are greater experts in domestic violence than we in domestic violence cases, and HMIC was very concerned are will say that women do not report or disclose that women felt they were being put in dangerous violence. I know from my own experience as a family situations by being forced to mediate. So we absolutely lawyer that women very often do not talk about it until oppose mediation in domestic violence cases. halfway through the proceedings, and therefore we cannot assume that these proposals will ensure that all women Q176 Kate Green: Of course, legal aid will be available, affected by violence will have the protection of family although we have talked about the definition for matters law legal aid. As I say, it is misleading to say that they involving domestic violence. What is the appropriate will. role of mediation in cases where there is no actual We are also very concerned about the loss of legal aid violence—physical or mental—but there are high levels in immigration cases where women apply under the of conflict? domestic violence rule. Those women are particularly Ruth Bond: Violence is insidious, whether it is physical vulnerable to further violence and in terms of their or otherwise, and I still say no. ability to make an application for indefinite leave to remain. Q177 Kate Green: Have you any views on the impact The Chair: Sorry to interrupt you, but brevity would on the wider family, and particularly on children? be appreciated in not only questions, but answers. Are Ruth Bond: Anything that will stop children being you finished, Elizabeth? taken into care is best, obviously.
Q173 Elizabeth Truss: I have just one more point on The Chair: Could I ask you to speak up? the letter from the National Federation of Women’s Institutes in response to the initial consultation. You Ruth Bond: Sorry. Any way to save children from claim that the definition of domestic violence included being put into care in dire cases is obviously the best. only physical harm, but that was never the case; indeed, Even in insidious cases that go on for a long time, the scope has been widened. Do you acknowledge that whether the courts intervene or not, we need to have a it has been widened? wider understanding. Ruth Bond: It has been widened to include psychological abuse—yes, I acknowledge that, but it is still not wide Q178 Kate Green: Can I ask Emma Scott about the enough. There are so many issues. issue of mediation’s appropriateness? In situations where there is no actual domestic violence and legal aid will Q174 Elizabeth Truss: Do you agree that the initial not be available for legal advice, the woman and the letter you wrote was wrong and that the definition of man could be encouraged to go through mediation in domestic violence was always wider than just physical circumstances where there are still very high levels of harm? conflict. What is your view on that? Emma Scott: From my recollection, the consultation Emma Scott: We have been very concerned about the paper specifically referred to physical harm at a number role of mediation and about women feeling forced into of points, and that was where our confusion lay. It is situations where they do not feel that they have a level clear that there has been a shift, but there still is not playing field in terms of negotiations and discussions. uniformity in terms of the definition of domestic violence There are still very clear and pervasive imbalances in the Bill and across Government policies. between men and women within relationships, particularly around financial issues. Women whom we talk to often Q175 Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I have limited knowledge of the financial arrangements want to follow up a couple of the points you have of their marriage. There are still clear inequalities, and alluded to. More generally, though, could you comment there is a real role for the courts to play in ensuring that first on the role you see for mediation in family cases? fair and equal settlements are made, particularly in Ruth Bond: In cases of domestic violence, mediation financial relief proceedings. is never a good thing. That is true in some cases where there are other issues, but certainly with domestic Q179 Kate Green: That brings me to the second point violence—no. It means that you have to face the perpetrator, that I wanted to raise, following some of the remarks which can be very stressful. I think, in all cases, no. made a few moments ago, about the way in which Emma Scott: There is clear evidence from not only problems arrive in clusters. Elizabeth Truss made the the women we speak to on a daily basis, but other point to you a few moments ago that legal aid would experts who have looked at this that mediation is not still be available for ancillary relief in divorce cases. To appropriate in domestic violence cases. As we have said, what extent are women who are presenting and seeking 79 Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 80 of Offenders Bill legal aid at present going through formal divorce, and the current proposals, would allow more women who to what degree are they in informal relationships or are affected by domestic violence to be eligible for legal separating? Do you have any information on that? aid.
The Chair: Before you answer, six Members have Q185 Mr Wallace: Secondly, I want to ask about indicated that they wish to speak, so brevity, please, in mediation. If domestic violence is currently a factor, questions and answers. compulsory mediation with all the requirement to seek Emma Scott: I am not quite sure what you are it is excluded, and that is not due to change. Nobody is referring to. going to force people into mediation, or force them to explore mediation as an option, if domestic violence is a recognised factor. That is what the situation is now and Q180 Kate Green: I am asking about women who that is what will continue. might not be getting divorced and who therefore will not be within the ambit of the court. To what degree do Emma Scott: We have wider concerns about mediation you think these proposals meet their needs? beyond legal aid, in terms of the family proceedings rules that have already been introduced. Participants in Emma Scott: In terms of what? family proceedings have to take part in mediation information assessment meetings and we have real concerns Q181 Kate Green: In terms of access to ancillary about identification of domestic violence in those cases. relief and legal aid for that. I think that there has been research that shows that four Emma Scott: If they are not going through divorce, minutes has been spent addressing whether domestic they would not be able to access ancillary relief proceedings. violence is an issue in those cases and that is really not adequate to explore the safety and appropriateness of Q182 Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) mediation. So we have wider concerns about the role of (Con): Good morning, Mr Sheridan. I am delighted to mediation in family cases. serve under your chairmanship again. Are you aware—many people who responded to the Q186 Mr Wallace: Mediation cases exist at the moment. consultation did not pick this up—that should domestic Of the 14,600 cases in 2009-10 where mediation was violence, either mental or physical, be realised, it would started, publicly funded and full or partial engagement unlock all the other types of support, such as ancillary was achieved, in 66% of those cases agreement was relief, contact and so on, to be funded by legal aid? Are reached. Mediation was a successful model for very you aware of that? Should the court effectively recognise many people. It has worked at quite a high level in the the objective test on domestic violence and grant legal last year, 2009-10. Do you think that it is wrong, therefore, aid, that would unlock legal aid for all the other remits for the Government to choose it as a favoured route? It around it. It would not just be dealt with for that seems to be a route that has a very high success rate and specific injunction, perhaps; it would be about everything that is going in the right direction. else, including contact. Emma Scott: Absolutely. The Chair: I think that the witness has got the question. Emma Scott: The women who contact us who have Q183 Mr Wallace: So you do recognise that? been through the mediation process do not always feel Emma Scott: Absolutely, but what we say is that the that it has been a successful process for them. They may proposals are too narrow in the definition that they have reached an agreement, but they have not always place on domestic violence, and that they will not felt that they have been able to take an equal or safe part capture all the women who are affected by domestic in that process. violence. As I said earlier, not all women will have seen Ruth Bond: We have evidence from our research that their perpetrator convicted of a criminal offence, not all in a couple of cases mediation seemed to be all right, will have a non-molestation order, not all will have a but then the problems all started up again. So mediation child protection plan in place and not all will have been is not always the answer. referred to a multi-agency risk assessment conference. Q187 Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): The Q184 Mr Wallace: But do you not think that at some Government’s own impact assessment says that about stage in the process, there needs to be an objective 79% of the current acts of assistance will not be eligible assessment of domestic violence? Somebody has to for family legal aid in future. Does the figure of 21% make an assessment objectively about whether it has accurately reflect the amount of domestic violence in taken place. I would regard bullying, for example, as the UK, or the number of separations after physical, mental domestic violence. Somebody somewhere has to emotional and financial violence? make an objective ruling, so that it isn’t just one word Ruth Bond: First, I am sure that not all cases of against another and people do not access it as a means physical violence and domestic violence are out in the to— public domain. That is the first thing to say. Whether or Emma Scott: What we proposed in our response to not that skews the numbers is a consideration. From the consultation, as well as, “Please see that MARACs our research and from hearing from our members who are added to the list of gateways”, was that very often came forward, they often said, “This is the first time women will go to specialist domestic violence organisations, I’ve ever mentioned it.” We had some who accessed to social services or to their doctor, midwife or health legal aid and it was fine; there were others for whom it visitor. Evidence from those kinds of professional, in did not go fine. We do not have to be skewed by addition to the statutory routes that have been set out in numbers all the time. 81 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 82 of Offenders Bill Emma Scott: It is very clear from the British crime Emma Scott: Women commented in our survey about survey statistics that there are many more women affected feeling terrified to speak when they are face to face with by domestic violence than are coming forward. Domestic their perpetrator. It is very obvious that if you have violence remains hidden within relationships and experienced perhaps years of violence and abusive relationship breakdowns. behaviour, you would feel extremely unsafe.
Q188 Yvonne Fovargue: You said in your previous Q190 Tom Brake: I understand that—although I evidence that quite often women do not go to the would have thought the same applied in terms of restorative statutory agencies and they go to other advice agencies justice schemes between victims and perpetrators. I hear instead. Do you feel that there are enough of those what you are saying. On a different point, you have agencies at the present time? made it very clear that neither of you believe that legal Emma Scott: Absolutely not. The funding of women’s aid cuts are necessary; in fact, Mrs Bond suggested that organisations generally is probably a separate issue. We it should be extended. That is clearly not the Government’s are the only organisation that provides legal advice to view. In terms of what will be left within the scope—for women. We are seeing a huge demand for the services example, domestic violence and harassment—do you that we offer as legal advice becomes scarcer and scarcer accept that, in fact, the provisions are perhaps more up and down the country. And we know from our sister friendly towards women rather than less friendly? organisations that they are facing really challenging Ruth Bond: We have no problem with looking at the times and that women’s organisations are closing, so Bill and seeing how you can alter it but, at the moment, there are fewer and fewer places for women to go, it is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. particularly regarding the proposals around the domestic It still needs to go further. Yes, we have said that women violence rule cases and immigration law cases. In those will be disproportionately affected by it. cases, the Government are suggesting in their proposals that women can seek advice from other agencies, but there simply will not be those agencies to provide that The Chair: We must move on. support, even if that was appropriate. We would say that it is very clear from the law that it is a criminal offence to give immigration law advice if you are not Q191 Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): The regulated by the office of the immigration services Justice Committee’s report on family legal aid was commissioner, or a solicitor or barrister, or exempted. published this morning. I do not expect that you will Therefore, the proposals put advisers at risk of committing have seen it, but two or three headline issues have been criminal offences, if they are going to be supporting reported, so I just wondered if you could comment on women applying under the domestic violence rule in them. First, the Chair of that Committee, the right hon. that way. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), said that there will be significantly more litigants in person following changes to legal aid and that The Chair: We have to move on. “Courts are going to have to make adjustments to cope with more people representing themselves in what are often emotionally Q189 Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): charged cases.” I want to pursue the issue of mediation. Restorative Are those fears that you share? justice schemes have a very high satisfaction rate with victims—95% in some cases. That is really about mediation, Emma Scott: Absolutely. We have seen more and and it often involves antisocial behaviour, harassment more women having to represent themselves as legal aid and bullying. I just want to understand why you are so has been restricted, even over the past 10 years. We categorical that in no cases of domestic violence mediation know, again from our research with service users, that is ever appropriate. women will be deterred from taking legal proceedings, which can provide safety for them and their children, Emma Scott: I am not sure that I am the best person ensure that they have financial settlements that ensure to talk about the dynamics of abusive relationships. their independence and financial security, and mean That is not my expertise. But it is very clear from my that they are not reliant on the state. We are very understanding of the power and control dynamics within concerned about women having to represent themselves abusive relationships that mediation does not provide a in proceedings, not least because they are incredibly safe or a level playing field for negotiations and discussions complex. Ancillary relief proceedings are very complex. to take place. From our experience of the women who Recently, our telephone helpline advised a woman who contact us, they do not want to do it. When we surveyed was representing herself in proceedings and I could women, again, in the run-up to our consultation response, hear the fear that she had about having to explain her an overwhelming majority of women and legal professionals situation to the court and tackling the Matrimonial told us that they did not feel that mediation was appropriate Causes Act 1973. Not only are there complex legal in domestic violence cases. All of them talked about the issues that women face in representing themselves, but dynamics of power and control within those relationships there is also the potential that they will face the perpetrator and how that can continue and be perpetuated through directly in court proceedings, again with the re-victimisation the mediation process. that that brings. Ruth Bond: Often when a case does come forward and a woman has the courage to say, “I have been suffering domestic violence,” mediation is way past Q192 Mr Slaughter: That is my second point. The them. They have usually got to the point where it is so Sun covers the issue rather more prosaically under the bad they have to get out and they do not want to speak headline “Paedos ‘to quiz victims in court’”. It quotes to the perpetrator. Mrs Justice Pauffley as telling the Justice Committee 83 Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 84 of Offenders Bill “that, for example, a man accused of sexually abusing his stepchildren Q196 Ben Gummer: Okay; second question. Do you could quiz the alleged victims if he had no lawyer.” accept that there are some vexatious claims in court The report continues: based on allegations of domestic abuse and the abuse of “She added: ‘It would be a denial of justice, and it would be children? emotionally the most upsetting of spectacles for any court to Emma Scott: No, I absolutely refute that, and I encounter.’” would ask where there is evidence of any false allegations Do you think that there is a real fear of people either having been made. having to go through the trauma of that sort of cross- examination, or simply not being prepared to go to Q197 Ben Gummer: So not one vexatious claim has court at all? ever been made in court on the basis of domestic abuse? Emma Scott: Absolutely. That is very clear. Emma Scott: I would not be able to answer that. What I would say is, “Where is the evidence that women Mr Wallace: On a point of order, Mr Sheridan. Is it will make false allegations?” in order for Mr Slaughter to quote to a witness partially, Q198 Ben Gummer: My third question—very quickly. without that witness having seen the details of the Have you provided any alternatives to the Government report or the report itself, and, secondly, to omit the in terms of cuts to legal aid that might be different for role of the judge in any court vis-à-vis the protection of their impact on women? a witness or victim? A judge does not sit idly by and allow those things to happen. They have a duty to Emma Scott: No, but we fully support the Law protect a victim or witness. Society’s proposals around alternatives. Ben Gummer: And they were seen to be risible yesterday. The Chair: I do not accept that that is a point of Thank you very much. order. I am certainly not in any position to put forward a legal perspective, but I ask for brevity and accuracy in Q199 Helen Goodman: The WI did some work on all questions, and particularly in answers. mental health problems in prison. Could you tell us something about the unmet needs you found in that Mr Slaughter: I am not sure how quoting is going to campaign that you ran, please? be other than accurate, and I object to such time wasting Ruth Bond: The unmet need is to have provision for when we have very few moments left. the mentally ill out in the community before they become Emma Scott: Perhaps I could say that the same perpetrators of crime. It is not so much when they are protections are not available to victims in civil law cases. inside but before they go inside that we are worried In family law cases, you do not have the same kind of about. protection that you have in rape cases in the criminal courts, for example, where witnesses cannot be cross- Q200 Helen Goodman: The Government have introduced examined directly by the perpetrator. If these reforms a new signposting diversion system, which everyone are put through, they will increase the number of litigants welcomes. Do you think that the £5 million that they in person and the number of women who have to face are spending on that will meet the needs that you the perpetrator directly in court. observed in the work that you did? Ruth Bond: No, I think it needs to be much more. The Chair: We have a few minutes left. Q201 Helen Goodman: Why? Q193 Ben Gummer (Ipswich) (Con): I have some very Ruth Bond: Because we need many more diversion quick questions, but all I need is a yes or no. Emma schemes. The £5 million was for only 100 of them, and I Scott, I am sure that you are well aware of jurisdictions think we need more. around the world. Would you say that Sweden is probably Helen Goodman: Have you thought at all about the at the forefront of the recognition of and action on impact of privatising the health— women’s rights? Emma Scott: I have to say that I am not an expert on The Chair: Order. On that last question, perhaps you jurisdictions across the world and would not be able to could give an answer in writing—that would be extremely comment on any other jurisdiction. helpful. I apologise if we have been somewhat abrupt, but we have limited time. Thanks very much for coming Q194 Ben Gummer: Do you know anything about the along. Swedish legal system? Emma Scott: No. Examination of Witnesses Jerry Petherick and Kate Steadman gave evidence. Q195 Ben Gummer: It is a matter of great interest to me. I put it to you that Sweden and Germany—I think 9.41 am we can agree that those two countries have led the way The Chair: We will now hear evidence from G4S and in progress on the recognition of and action on women’s Sodexo. Just for the record, could you introduce yourselves? rights—have the highest rates of mediation in legal Jerry Petherick: Surely. I am Jerry Petherick. I am the cases in the world. Is that something we could learn managing director of the offender management business from? stream of G4S Care and Justice Services. Emma Scott: Without having explored it further, I Kate Steadman: I am Kate Steadman. I am director could not comment. of Government strategy for Sodexo Justice Services. 85 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 86 of Offenders Bill Q202 Elizabeth Truss: I am interested in how offender on release. It is a very difficult policy to enact and it will management works at present and whether you think take a lot of hard work. The Bill makes it easier in many the current National Offender Management Service senses—certainly in terms of being able to enforce a structure will work. deduction from prisoners’ earnings—but the policy will Jerry Petherick: My view is that the revised NOMS be very difficult and will require more than legislation. I structure gives the clarity we have been seeking for some think that the Government are well aware of that. time. The separation into distinct business streams is There are a lot of questions to be raised about space positive and good, and my initial experience is certainly in prisons and the flexibility to introduce full working that there is a much clearer definition of the expectations days, particularly in public sector prisons. The private and work. sector has it slightly easier in that regard because we can Kate Steadman: I echo that. It is a clearer structure be more flexible with our staffing. There are other and it is smaller. Greater clarity could be given to questions about the local job market that are being external stakeholders about the structure of MOJ. worked on, but it is a big challenge and I do not Obviously, it is still going through a transformation underestimate that. In my mind, the biggest thing that process, but that is still not entirely clear to people needs to happen is for there to be a culture of businesses outside the Department. However, broadly, I echo what coming into prisons. I do not think that that has been has been said. The ending of the regional structure is an fostered yet. In some regards, there is still a stigma improvement and a simplification. attached to that—quite wrongly. That is the biggest thing in my mind that needs to change. Q203 Elizabeth Truss: Do you see the opportunity for further cost savings in the structure of NOMS when the Bill is implemented? The Chair: Before we move on to the next speaker, I Jerry Petherick: As Kate said, the removal of the am conscious that yet again a number of speakers wish regional tier has helped and it is giving clarity. The to contribute, so answer briefly please. For fairness to further savings would come through greater assimilation hon. Members, there will be one question and one of the custodial and non-custodial work. Not only supplementary. would there be cost savings in that, but it would be a more effective end-to-end system. Increasingly, that is Q205 Helen Goodman: You said that extending the work that I see before people come into custody, once amount of time that prisoners should work will be they are there—but particularly when they come through difficult. What are the resource implications in moving the gate—and where any mentoring-type opportunities from where you are now to a 40-hour week? How many exist. more prison officers will you need to run that in a Kate Steadman: As far as my understanding goes—given prison? how long a full-time job allows one to study a Bill in Jerry Petherick: It will vary from establishment to such detail—the Bill does not make changes to the establishment and, indeed, in terms of culture. We have structure of NOMS that would create savings. It is more managed with a very small increase in staff, but let me about changes that might result in lowering the prison make it absolutely clear that we are lucky in terms of population, which would create savings. I think that the some of the estate that we have. It is new or relatively main savings made in the criminal justice system will be new. We have workshops that are built for the purpose through reducing reoffending, and nothing in the Bill as opposed to converted. The real issue is that of a would particularly act against that. However, I do not cultural mind change. I have spent 29 years in prison see any particular structural changes to NOMS or management and people are very reluctant to have possibilities for that in the Bill. prisoners unlocked in small pockets around the establishment. We need to change that culture, and we Q204 Elizabeth Truss: What about working in prison? have done. We need to make a prisoner’s working life What do you think the best way is for that to be much more similar to the working lives that we have. We implemented? introduced portakabins as canteens at the place of Jerry Petherick: May I just clarify? Does working in work, for example. We have to make sure of security prison mean the 40-hour week and so forth? and safety. The actual resource is about changing shift patterns and making sure that we are maximising the Elizabeth Truss: Yes, exactly. usage of that as opposed to a large scale increase in Jerry Petherick: At three of my establishments, we numbers. already have, or we will shortly introduce, elements of that. This will be an incremental drive. Certainly our experience is that it is possible, and it is right that Q206 Helen Goodman: Do you think that you can do prisoners and staff value it. It is particularly valuable that at the same time as there are 23% cuts in criminal when we have links with external companies and justice? The contracts that you are making at the moment organisations. There are obviously risks in introducing are presumably less generous than they were five years it, but there has to be an incremental spread to build the ago. culture, because some establishments plainly will not Jerry Petherick: That is obviously the challenge for have the facilities that will enable them to have a widespread us. We have got to be innovative in the approach. That is 40-hour working week. the type of work that we are doing. We need external Kate Steadman: I echo that, again to the degree that I companies to be involved. To be honest, we are seeing welcome very much the Government’s call for increased an increased number of people who are prepared to work in prisons. That is the right thing to do for take prisoners in employment, both within the establishment reparation to victims, for punishment, and for rehabilitation and, more importantly, outside the establishment. Research in terms of skills and increasing the chances of employment shows that a prisoner who has gained the work ethic in 87 Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 88 of Offenders Bill prison values his or her place of employment afterwards, such as Transco and Timpson come in. It has to be a and employers are finding that they have got a more collaborative effort, and we need to drive the message, stable and often more committed work force that has but undoubtedly, there are potential financial benefits been trained to very high standards. for both sides.
Q207 Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): You Q210 Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): How both mentioned changing the culture to enable more can you guarantee safety in an environment where work in prisons. How do you change that culture and prisoners are more mobile within the prison estate, even bring in more partners to introduce the sort of high-value in a situation where people might be reluctant to engage work that allows deductions and can still ultimately be with work? What does that mean in terms of appropriate turned from a cost centre to a profit centre? Ideally, that staff numbers, such as of prison officers who will be could also be integrated with the Work programme needed to supervise prisoners who are more mobile? through post-release Work programmes as well. Jerry Petherick: In any establishment, be it public or Kate Steadman: There are two elements to that: the private, safe system of work, risks assessments and so culture inside the prison and the culture outside the forth are undertaken to ensure that, and some of it is a prison. I have less experience of public sector prisons, matter of judgment. In my experience, a busy prisoner but to incentivise governors who do not already have an is a safer prisoner and a happier prisoner because they incentive—many do—the Policy Exchange report published are engaged. If there are high levels of inactivity in a recently suggested giving an overhead fee to the prison prison, boredom comes from that and we have control out of the prisoner wage. That is one interesting idea. problems. I have experienced that various times in my Also, as I said before, it is a problem with flexibility in own career. If you make work attractive, from the the public sector, with the core day obviously making training, rehabilitation or financial point of view, there things difficult on a Friday. So that is a real challenge. is buy-in from the prisoner and that breeds safety. The bigger challenge is the external culture, and changing that is very difficult, particularly at a time Q211 Alex Cunningham: So you do not think that when unemployment is rising on the outside and there having many more prisoners moving around the prison are very careful political decisions to be made. There is in different work environments will require greater a lot of work being done by the Ministry of Justice supervision from prison officers. behind the scenes to engage employers and larger Jerry Petherick: There is always a risk when you have organisations, and I really welcome that. I do not know people out, and that is where the professionalism and if it would be possible to do that more publicly and the risk assessments come in. You make sure that you make more public pronouncements of the Government’s have sufficient staff. No one—certainly not me—would championing of this, really doing something to change advocate having unsafe staffing levels and working practices. the reputation that working in prisons is bad. Lots of big corporations do work inside prisons but they hide it Q212 Alex Cunningham: So do you need additional because it is somehow dirty. The biggest thing that people? That is the point. At a time when there are cuts needs to be done is to change that. in the system, do you not need additional people in the system to supervise prisoners when more of them are Q208 Damian Hinds: Can it ultimately be a profit mobile within the community? centre, for both the partner firm and the prison? In Jerry Petherick: I cannot accept a generic statement terms of economics, there must be some scale or curve that you need additional people. You need to look at related to hours in a week and numbers of people how you are using your current resources, and you involved. How does that work? What does it take to get might be re-profiling those resources to make more to the point where there is an active incentive, in a effective use of them. In some instances, you will require financial as well as a responsibility sense, to do these more staff, and that is where the economic element things? comes in. If you are bringing in more income, you can Kate Steadman: I think that it has to be a financial afford to have more staff, but I refute any suggestion incentive, certainly on the external side. You cannot that, across the board, there are not sufficient staff expect people to do it out of goodwill and I do not already in the system. There will be some locations think that anyone does expect that. The question of the where there are not, and others where there are. You actual finances and how it works out is too complicated have to do that on an individual establishment risk to answer at the moment, but on a general basis it assessment. would depend on all kinds of profit margins— Mr Wallace: I shall give up my slot, as Mr Cunningham Q209 Damian Hinds: But can it be a profit centre for has been given all the answers that I require. both sides? That is really the question. Kate Steadman: I believe so. Yes, strongly. Q213 Tom Brake: May I press you on what you are Jerry Petherick: Yes it can. To get there you have to doing for businesses, for instance in hosting jobs fairs? have great resilience, do lots of hard work, have lots of What are you doing to get these businesses into your contacts at a number of levels, including the CBI level prisons? You will have to do that if you are going to and the local chambers of commerce level, and get out deliver a work programme. there and market and explain, hosting work fairs for Kate Steadman: We are in the process of a systematic local employers and so forth. One of the problems is engagement with outside organisations in order to bring that it can be very small scale and bitty, and the real further work into the prison. We already have a lot of issue is about scaling it up, and that is where bodies workshops going on in our prison, with qualifications 89 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 90 of Offenders Bill attached; they range according to gender and all sorts Kate Steadman: In the private sector, governors are of things. A lot is already provided, but we are trying to called directors. All our directors have long and impressive up that. We are also trying to introduce things ourselves. public sector experience. The rest of our prison staff are We recently developed a proposal, which we are a mixture, and I would say that a lot of them are fresh beginning to implement, to put all of our company’s staff. However, with regard to the new tendering process, UK printing business inside one of our prisons. It is I should point out that all but one of the prisons are currently disparately outsourced; it will now be done by currently in the public sector. That poses very different prisoners inside a print shop in the prison; it will be run questions about where we get our staff. as a social enterprise, with profits going half to victims and half to local resettlement charities. We are engaged Q217 Mr Slaughter: Is your background in the Prison in a combination of external engagement and bringing Service? our own work into the prison to increase things, but we Kate Steadman: No, it is not. are already operating almost a 40-hour week in several of our prisons. Q218 Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Jerry Petherick: We have very much the same internal- May I move on to curfews? In two ways, most notably in external supply chain. At Altcourse prison, we hosted terms of sentences, the Bill extends the potential ambit the local chamber of commerce on two or three work of curfew from six months to 12 and from 12 hours to fairs. We have had great benefit from that, not only in 16. Can you give some evidence about the system, the the work coming in but, as someone suggested earlier, expansion and how you as a service are going to be able in the change of attitude from people outside, who have to cope with the expected increase in the use of tagging never been in a prison often see prisoners as being and electronic devices related to curfews? unemployable. When we start getting that interaction, Jerry Petherick: From my perspective, the increased they realise that these are genuine people who, for use of technology, new technology and flexibility, whatever reason, ended up where they are. particularly if given through offender managers, can bring huge benefits. To refer to international work, in The Chair: I am sorry, but time is moving on. Tom, Norway, people are curfewed the night before they do you have a supplementary question? should be going to work. That seems to be a very intelligent use of it. I spent a night back in December out with our field teams, talking to people who were Q214 Tom Brake: Yes, I do. Are you planning to coming to the end of their tagging period. I was amazed make any physical adaptations to your prisons to enable talking to them—it was an education for me—to hear you to do more of this work? just how restrictive and successful they have found it. Jerry Petherick: Yes. That is an ongoing issue. As we The intelligent and more flexible use of it—the refining change the work stream, and we are currently changing of it to make sure that people turn up for unpaid work a workshop at Altcourse prison from one type of work or whatever—will, I think, change lives positively. to light engineering training and production facility, Kate Steadman: We do not currently provide electronic there inevitably have to be changes. monitoring services. Obviously, that is coming up for tender again soon and may well change; I do not know. Traditionally, as an organisation, we have taken the Q215 Mr Slaughter: From the answers that you have view that we are very values-based and do not enter into given to my colleague, it seems that you do not have to pieces of business unless they have a predominantly be asked to do a lot more with fewer resources. The rehabilitative element. Electronic monitoring, as it has Minister announced yesterday that there would be a been structured in the past, is more of a monitoring new tendering process. One of the G4S prisons is coming service than something that we believe has the ability to an end, and there are about eight further prisons. At really to impact people’s lives in the bits that the private the same time as you are coping with those tensions in sector provides. your existing work, are you intending to expand and to bid for any of those contracts? Q219 Mr Buckland: You are developing the points Jerry Petherick: We have a meeting tomorrow that about changes in technology to make the system more will define that, but I would be amazed if we do not. We effective. Youmentioned unpaid work. Is it an evolution are obviously gearing up our resources to do so. from just a monitoring service to a service that is potentially much more intrusive in terms of regulating Q216 Mr Slaughter: That is an interesting point. the activity of the individual who is tagged? When you say resources, do you generally recruit your Jerry Petherick: I have to dissent from the statement management staff or your staff generally from within that it is only a monitoring service. My experience is the Prison Service—I do not know about your background that it was far from that. I saw field-based officers or that of Ms Steadman—or do you tend to take people interacting not just with the person but with their from outside? environment and with the family. I have listened to the Jerry Petherick: Increasingly it is a mixed economy. calls at the other end, and there is a lot of interaction. Traditionally there was only one source, and I came Obviously, we can do more. Yes, I think it will be more through that source personally. At Altcourse prison, we intrusive, but I think that that is what the public want— have the first director who joined us as a prison custody officer. Increasingly the reservoir of talent and experience Q220 Mr Buckland: I am not being critical. is such that we are beginning to see it pull through. Jerry Petherick: No, but it is also what the individual Indeed, we obviously use international experience as on the tag wants. Most people want to be taken away well. from the practices that led them to that position. 91 Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 92 of Offenders Bill Q221 Kate Green: To what degree do you believe that think it is about setting the expectation. We come back the provisions of the Bill will impact your ability to to cultures and it is about doing that. We then have to meet the special needs and circumstances of women in work. I know that Sodexo works very closely with a prison? particular bank to provide bank accounts, and that is Kate Steadman: Unless I have missed something, I do something that we are looking at. not think that the Bill touches in particular on women Kate Steadman: We won a Guardian public services or has a particular impact on them. There are some award for our Co-op bank scheme at Forest Bank. The measures that could be seen to strengthen community finance gap for prisoners is obviously something that punishments and community sentences, which can only needs serious work. I think that it is improving. I do not be a good thing for instilling public confidence so that have any particularly strong additional views on that. sentencers feel able to hand down those sentences on more occasions. That is, obviously, favourable to women who are carers for families. Otherwise, I do not think Helen Goodman: I want to follow up on the question that the Green Paper focuses particularly on women. that Damian Hinds just asked. I think it is a very important question. When I came to Peterborough, you Jerry Petherick: I think that the strengthening of the very kindly showed me around, Kate. We came across a community sector issues can only be good, particularly story from one of the people who worked there about a if we give flexibility to offender managers at the local woman with an infant for whom housing had not been and regional level to have more impact on refining some organised before the day of release. I have since discovered of the restrictions. Then we can look at tagging people that, for women leaving mother and baby units across for different curfew periods to allow them to attend the system, that is quite a common practice. You have school with their children and so forth. There are heaps said a lot about co-operating with the private sector, but of ways for innovation and entrepreneurialism to help I wonder how you would feel about a duty to co-operate in that way. with public sector agencies—local authorities, housing associations and primary care trusts—to ensure the Q222 Kate Green: You have both alluded to the fact kind of seamless support that people need, that Mr Hinds that there is no specific focus on women, either in the was really alluding to. Green Paper or in the Bill. Do you feel that it would be Kate Steadman: To clarify, if I may, if I understand useful to progress the proposal that the previous correctly, in that case the prison discovered that the Government took from the Corston review of having a local agencies had not prepared housing for the offender women’s champion in the penal system? who was being released, and the prison intervened to Kate Steadman: I personally think that champion or ensure that it was done before she was released. I do not no, it does not particularly matter. The policy that think that there was any absence on our part. comes out is important, and how that is done is, to me, I personally think that this great divide between the neither here nor there. It is difficult, as a service provider, sectors in all areas of governance, that existed historically, to comment on detail in sentencing proposals, to be is out of date. We work very closely with local agencies frank. My personal opinion is that I welcome the in the public sector. We work very closely with voluntary recommendations of the Corston report. In a criminal sector organisations and we are a partner. I do not justice system, which in my view needs quite a lot of think that any one prison or any one agency can exist reform—the Bill and Government policy go a long way on its own, working in silos. We work extremely closely to achieving that—it is really a matter of where you with all different local agencies on release and pre-sentence focus your time and resources. Women are a very important to give offenders proper joined-up care, as far as is population group, I do not doubt that at all, but I possible. understand that they are also only a small proportion of Jerry Petherick: The real issue is that we all have to the prison population. stop looking at prisons on one side and the community Jerry Petherick: My personal view would be to challenge on the other. We have to work through the gate. To do NOMS to make sure that they are providing that insight. that, we must jointly create a very effective and professional I have seen various ways that that has been done in the mentoring process through the gate. They are trite past. words in many ways. People use them time and again, but the transition from custody for any prisoner—male, female, adult or youngster—back into the community is Q223 Damian Hinds: I want to ask about the importance a real risk. I have seen it time and again. It is where you of financial capability in rehabilitation, and the implicit actually have someone to whom that individual can intent to increase the prevalence of payroll deduction turn, to make the transition. The real problem is with saving schemes, but more importantly how that can best the under-12-month-sentence people, who do not have be integrated with wider financial capability programmes any statutory supervision. In Wales, we have a transitional in prison—there seem to be some pilots, but it is a little support scheme, which is the professional mentoring bit patchy—and also how you can integrate that to scheme for any prisoner—prisoners from any prison, involve mainstream financial services upon release. whether they are male or female—going back to south Jerry Petherick: A lot of that is in how you prepare Wales. We see the impact of the mentors, some of and explain to prisoners what it is for. Again, at Altcourse whom are ex-prisoners themselves who have had that prison last year we gave £4,500, which prisoners had experience of leaving prison. donated from their wages, to local victim support charities. We have created the expectation that prisoners will both save some of their money—on average, people in that Q224 Helen Goodman: We all recognise good practice group have been leaving with £250, which may not seem when we see it and I think that we all agree that a lot, but it is a start—and give money to charities. So I the St Giles Trust is doing great work, for example in 93 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 94 of Offenders Bill [Helen Goodman] some of it has to be about scale. I believe that in any prison you could find something to encourage the 40-hour Peterborough. However, our object is to ensure that working week and then you scale up from there. So it is best practice becomes common practice and my question very hard to give a generic answer because it is related was about putting duties on to prison authorities to to individual establishments, but the culture is such that co-operate so that best practice happens all the time you can start the process. and not just some of the time. Jerry Petherick: IhavetosaythatItakethatasread Q229 Alex Cunningham: With your experience, how and I expect my directors to do that. I would get very much of the prison estate do you believe is not ready to irate if I found examples of where they would not do deliver this programme, in view of the large number of that and I am sure that Kate feels the same. older prisons? Kate Steadman: We are contractually obliged to do Jerry Petherick: It is hard to give the answer, to be so. quite honest. Jerry Petherick: Again, it is really about creating that culture and that expectation. We all know that in the Q230 Alex Cunningham: Half? future this will be a major element of the work and the Jerry Petherick: No, I would not have thought that. I specifications, and I am delighted about that because it come back to the point that I was making before, that is a further driver in that way. sometimes you have to start with smaller workshops that you can manage and from them you begin to build Q225 Tom Brake: I just wanted to check something the work culture, etc. that you said, Mr Petherick, to ensure that I understood it. It was about tagging. Are you saying that tagging can Q231 Alex Cunningham: So it would take a long time now act as a sort of GPS device, in that people can go to get the sort of comprehensive programme that is somewhere and you can track the fact that they have envisaged? gone there and then returned following a particular Jerry Petherick: Yes. The other point that I want to route? make is that the very aged prisons tend to be the local Jerry Petherick: That technology is increasingly available prisons, which prisoners go through and out into the and I believe that it will be a feature of the new bids. training estate—quite rightly—where the facilities are much more available. That is because the local prisons, Q226 Tom Brake: Is it in use already? as you will know, actually serve a particular purpose. So Jerry Petherick: Not in the UK. In other jurisdictions, that is where I would see the growth. it is. That is my understanding. Q232 Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ Q227 Tom Brake: And your technical understanding Co-op): May I ask you both a question about something of it is that it works effectively and that there are no that I am interested in: drug and alcohol treatment? Do risks with it, or no more risks than with the existing you support the introduction of compulsory drug and system? alcohol treatment in prisons? Jerry Petherick: That is my understanding. I have to Kate Steadman: As detailed in the Bill? say that I am no technical expert, but that is certainly my understanding. I will write to you, Sir, after this Jonathan Reynolds: Yes. evidence session about that, if you would like me to. Kate Steadman: I think that anything that encourages offenders into drug and alcohol treatment is a good Tom Brake: That would be very helpful. Thank you. thing. I think that drugs and alcohol are one of the biggest causes of crime and one of the biggest problems affecting our society. Most people on the outside tend Q228 Alex Cunningham: I want to return to appropriate to have this view that most people in prison are inherently facilities in prison for delivering the work programme. evil and incurable, and I think that in most cases they Mr Petherick, you said that you were an experienced are in there due to some social problem—drugs and prison officer, so doubtless you have experience of older alcohol make up a huge proportion of that. On average, prisons as well as new prisons. In your opinion, how only about 5% of orders in the community are drug and difficult will it be to deliver this more comprehensive alcohol-related and the proportion of offenders suffering work programme in the older establishments, which from such problems is much higher than that. have perhaps more than 1,000 prisoners, and what kind of investment do you think will be needed to make them Jerry Petherick: My personal answer to your question fit for purpose? is, yes, I do. Very often people need that initial drive to take them through that first period of resistance and so Jerry Petherick: First, it is not necessarily a function forth. of size. It is more about old gate lodges, etc, admitting lorries and so forth that are of the requisite size. Again, it is very difficult to give a complete figure across the Q233 Jonathan Reynolds: Is it simply a matter of board, but I remember that when I was the area manager making it compulsory? Is that how to get to that point? for the south-west, Exeter prison had an incredibly Are there any problems for you with that approach? narrow gate lodge, which caused problems for any vehicles Jerry Petherick: There would be problems with any entering. I had Channings Wood prison, which was approach to be absolutely honest. Yes, I can foresee much more modern, and we did not have that problem some problems, but I also reflect on other times, including there. So some of it is purely about access issues and the introduction of mandatory drug testing, when I 95 Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 96 of Offenders Bill thought something would be a real issue, but it was not. The Chair: Sorry, Andy. I call Damian Hinds. A lot of it is about how expectations are set and, more importantly, how they are managed at the interface. Q238 Damian Hinds: I want to ask about payment by Q234 Jonathan Reynolds: To widen that further and results and social impact bonds, which touch on some talk about wider prison health services, what will the of the issues that have come up, such as drug and effects of privatising prison health services be? alcohol rehabilitation and the work programme, as well as overall rehabilitation. They are new areas with which Jerry Petherick: Increasingly, in the new bids they are everyone is trying to come to terms. There are six not privatised, because, in my experience at the moment challenges with PBR and social impact bonds: defining with Birmingham and Featherstone, the local PCT the audience; isolating the impact of interventions; commissions the health care service. I feel that that is defining a control group; having measures of success; the right model. My assumption is that that will continue. the fact that savings will come from different budgets in Kate Steadman: My understanding is that it will the public sector and that there is a danger of double continue. Prisons currently in the private sector will not counting; and finally, that positive cash flows may have their health care contracts ended, but as the contracts happen over a very long time during which there may be come up for renewal, they will move over to being two, three or four changes of Government. It strikes me PCT-based. That is my understanding from the Department that with stopping reoffending, you have the most perfect of Health. model to deal with those six challenges, but even within that challenge, how big a potential do you see ultimately Q235 Mr Slaughter: From what you have said so far, for payment by results and social impact bonds? it seems that there will be quite significant changes in how prisons are run—capital works, staffing changes Kate Steadman: There are two slightly different questions. and, presumably, staff will have to be trained. How will With payment by results, the logic is, to a degree, it work in contractual terms? Do you renegotiate your flawless. Youcan argue that if it works, you get paid and contracts? Do you have supplementary contracts? if it does not, you do not. Obviously, at one of our Jerry Petherick: The initial specification will set out prisons in Peterborough we are piloting a social impact expectations on the level of work, time out of cell and bond, which is going very well—it has also been a so forth. If we want to negotiate a change to that, either learning process. However, I think payment by results we or the authority can submit a notice of change for has a positive future, but the devil will be in the detail in consideration. I would be surprised if we went to the a lot of these cases, and we have to see how it goes. I authority to say that we wanted to change a workshop cannot pretend it will be the solution to everything. from A to B, for example, because that would be down to our management of it and we would incorporate any Q239 Damian Hinds: As an order of magnitude, do costs in our business model and business case for any you think that 1%, 10%, 100% of the ex-offender population particular change. would be covered by programmes that ultimately could Kate Steadman: I would like to clarify that I think be funded by social finance? that certainly most of our prisons would not require Kate Steadman: That is a different question. My substantial changes to introduce a 40-hour week—not second answer was going to be about social impact substantial changes. bonds versus payment by results, because they are two different things. A social impact bond, as far as I am Q236 Mr Slaughter: I am slightly surprised by that. aware, is when the money comes from social investors in What sort of hours are prisoners working at now? the community, as opposed to private finance and other Kate Steadman: Some of our workshops, operating things like that. I do not know to what degree there at Forest Bank prison for example, operate 37 hours a is—at the moment, anyway—an appetite for social week, so it would require very little change to have an investment to the extent to which you can meet every extra three hours. We have the resource, the modern offender coming out of a prison in England and Wales design and the flexible staffing arrangements to do that. at the gate. I do not know whether that will change when proof of the concept is there, but I think it will be Q237 Mr Slaughter: You will not go back to the interesting to see how social investment goes. PBR is Ministry of Justice to say, “We need more money” or, more general and it is different; I think it is much more “We need substantive changes in the contract we already promising, if that makes sense. have”? You will simply use existing resources to cope with the change that the Bill introduces? Q240 Damian Hinds: To a degree. To be fair, social Kate Steadman: As far as my understanding goes, impact bonds are kind of a subset of payment by yes. We certainly will not ask for more money. As far as results. You can have lots of payment-by-results my knowledge of contracts goes, I do not think that programmes, of which some are suitable for social there are any other contract changes that would have to impact bonds. In fact, in the list of six challenges that I result. gave, I think the first four apply to all payment-by-results Jerry Petherick: Our workshops are working at that programmes, and two more apply particularly to social kind of level already. Obviously, we have the benefit of impact bonds. I am just trying to get a sense—I know it being relatively recent operations, so we are developing is impossible to say accurately—of how big this could and have developed our own culture. I come back to the grow. The pilot in Peterborough seems encouraging. fact that a lot of this is about cultural and organisational How far can it go, and what percentage of the ex-offender changes, and that can come down to shift pattern population could be covered? changes and so forth.
Mr Slaughter: But that might not be true— The Chair: Order. That is a lengthy question. 97 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 98 of Offenders Bill Jerry Petherick: I would add a seventh challenge, fall off the edge without support on release, it is useless. which is scalability, and that is implicit in the other However, I cannot comment on that individual case, points. The real issue is about the pace and scalability of because I cannot recall the details. the pilots, and so forth. Certainly, we are up for payment by results; it is the way forward, and we are getting experience of that through the welfare to work programme. Q242 Mr Watts: I absolutely agree with you, which is We will take a lot of learning from it into the criminal why I am trying to pursue that point. It seems to me justice sector. At the moment, we are conducting a type that a gap is there from what you indicated, which does of “lessons learnt” survey from our initial work, which not seem to be addressed in the Bill, and I am asking for again, I would be very happy to provide to the Committee a comment. There does not seem to be a joining together when it has been completed. The appetite is there, but as of the probation service, youth offending teams, and so Kate says, the devil will be in the detail. on, in a way that is likely to lead to stopping people from reoffending in future. Q241 Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab): I was Jerry Petherick: I think it is far better than it used to interested to hear your response to the earlier question be, and MAPPAs—multi-agency public protection on your relationship with the public sector, and specifically, arrangements—for those who come into it obviously about the woman who was leaving—I think you said help. I recall that in my previous life I was one of the that the prison found out that the local authority had first members of the south-west reducing reoffending not provided housing. Does that not indicate that there committee, which is particularly pertinent because it is is a gap in the relationship between the prison and the easy to identify someone to lead on a police matter and public sectors? The relationship does not appear to be someone to lead on prison and probation, and so on. what it should be. Our real problem was identifying someone who could lead on the local authority, for a very wide geographical Kate Steadman: If I am totally honest, I cannot recall area. the exact details of that case. I am not based at that prison. It was during the visit of the shadow Minister, when a member of staff relayed an anecdote about how The Chair: Order. I am sure that you can finish your the prison intervened to ensure that there was housing. answer in writing to Mr Watts, if necessary. I thank To be frank, I cannot remember whose fault it was, and both our witnesses for coming along, and for their who failed to do what in the process. patience. Without doubt, as Jerry said, the relationship between the prison and the community is where the answer to 10.25 am reducing reoffending lies, and all our prisons are designed towards achieving that. There is no doubt that, for years The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question and years, that has been the cliff edge. No matter what put (Standing Order No. 88). you do to prisoners while they are inside, if you let them Adjourned till this day at One o’clock.