PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee LEGAL AID, SENTENCING AND PUNISHMENT OF OFFENDERS BILL Third Sitting Thursday 14 July 2011 (Morning) CONTENTS Written evidence reported to the House. Programme order amended. Examination of witnesses. Adjourned till this day at One o’clock. PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £4·00 PBC (Bill 205) 2010 - 2012 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office. No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Monday 18 July 2011 STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE,†JIM SHERIDAN † Blunt, Mr Crispin (Parliamentary Under-Secretary † Llwyd, Mr Elfyn (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC) of State for Justice) † Reynolds, Jonathan (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ †Brake,Tom(Carshalton and Wallington) (LD) Co-op) † Buckland, Mr Robert (South Swindon) (Con) † Slaughter, Mr Andy (Hammersmith) (Lab) † Crockart, Mike (Edinburgh West) (LD) Soubry, Anna (Broxtowe) (Con) † Cunningham, Alex (Stockton North) (Lab) † Truss, Elizabeth (South West Norfolk) (Con) † Djanogly, Mr Jonathan (Parliamentary Under- Turner, Karl (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab) Secretary of State for Justice) † Wallace, Mr Ben (Wyre and Preston North) (Con) †Watts,MrDave(St Helens North) (Lab) † Fovargue, Yvonne (Makerfield) (Lab) † Wright, Jeremy (Lord Commissioner of Her † Goodman, Helen (Bishop Auckland) (Lab) Majesty’s Treasury) † Green, Kate (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab) † Gummer, Ben (Ipswich) (Con) Sarah Thatcher, Committee Clerk † Hinds, Damian (East Hampshire) (Con) Lee, Jessica (Erewash) (Con) † attended the Committee Witnesses Emma Scott, Director, Rights of Women Ruth Bond, Chair, National Federation of Women’s Institutes Jerry Petherick, Managing Director Offender Management, G4S Care and Justice Services Kate Steadman, Director of Government Strategy, Sodexo Justice Service 73 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 74 of Offenders Bill Public Bill Committee Ordered, That the Order of the Committee of 12 July be amended as follows— Thursday 14 July 2011 in the Table in paragraph (2), in the second entry for Thursday 14 July, in the third column, leave out ‘Serco;’—(Mr Djanogly.) (Morning) The Chair: We have representatives to give evidence [JIM SHERIDAN in the Chair] from Rights of Women and the National Federation of Women’s Institutes. Will you introduce yourselves to Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment the Committee? of Offenders Bill Emma Scott: My name is Emma Scott, and I am the director of Rights of Women. Written evidence to be reported to the Ruth Bond: I am Ruth Bond, and I am the national House chair of the National Federation of Women’s Institutes. LA 15 Citizens Advice Bureau LA 16 Sheffield Law Centre Q164 Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): We LA 17 MASS (Motor Accident Solicitors Society) are pleased to be taking evidence from you this morning. LA 18 Southall Black Sisters The Bill does not mention women, but in various LA 19 National Aids Trust (NAT) ways women will be affected, and I wondered whether LA 20 Family Law Bar Association you had any views on whether its effects would be LA 21 JUSTICE different or disproportionate for men and women, or LA 22 Refuge Action whether women would be disadvantaged in any way by LA 23 R3 proposals in the Bill. LA 24 JUSTICE Emma Scott: We are really clear that there is going to LA 25 ICAEW be a disproportionate effect on women. We know that LA 26 Citizens Advice Bureau—additional women make up a significantly greater proportion of memorandum those who receive civil legal aid, particularly around family and immigration law, which are the areas we are LA 27 Community Law Partnership particularly concerned about. LA 28 Shelter We, as an organisation, provide legal advice to women, LA 29 John Eekelaar and we speak to women on our telephone helplines on a LA 30 Liberty daily basis. Those women come to us not just with one LA 31 Paul Rumley, Partner, WithyKing particular issue resulting from a relationship breakdown; LA 32 Advice Services Alliance they come to us wanting advice about child contact LA 33 Linskill Solicitors proceedings, financial relief proceedings, welfare benefits, LA 34 Law Centres Federation debt and immigration law. LA 35 NSPCC There are a whole range of issues that women need LA 36 Standing Committee on Youth Justice advice on. We are very, very concerned that removing legal aid for those issues will significantly disadvantage LA 37 Refugee Children’s Consortium women. Our particular concern is around domestic 9am violence. Our concern is that the definition of domestic violence in the Bill will not allow all women who The Committee deliberated in private. experience violence to have access to family law legal 9.1 am aid, and that that will put women at risk. On resuming— Ruth Bond: I reiterate what Emma said. We are a women’s organisation and, hence, we deal with women. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice We have a vast raft of research that we have conducted (Mr Jonathan Djanogly): On a point of order, Mr Sheridan. on this subject. I think it does disproportionately, shall At the beginning of Tuesday’s proceedings the hon. we say, outlaw women, because they are the ones, we Member for Bishop Auckland claimed that the Council have found from our research and from what our members of Her Majesty’s Circuit Judges was not giving evidence tell us, who need to go for legal aid, because they are so because it would not attend at a given time. I want to often violated. correct that. I understand that in fact the council was invited, but declined the invitation, as it felt that it is for Q165 Helen Goodman: On the sentencing provisions, politicians to decide such things, and not for the council the Government are exempting domestic violence cases to comment. It passed on its thanks for being invited to from the new rules on bail. In other words, if a person give oral evidence. has been accused of domestic violence, that is a reason The Chair: That has been recorded. for remanding them in custody. The definition used in that part of the Bill is, “physical and mental violence”. Ordered, Are you content with that as a specific enough test? That if, on Tuesday 19 July, references to specific times in the Have you thought about that part of the Bill as well? Standing Orders of this House apply as if that day were a Wednesday, paragraph (1)(c) of the Order of the Committee of Emma Scott: We have not looked specifically at the 12 July shall be amended by leaving out ‘10.30 am and 4.00 pm’ sentencing provisions, but what we are really clear about and inserting ‘9.00 am and 1.30 pm’.—(Mr Djanogly.) as an organisation is that, where legislation talks about 75 Public Bill Committee14 JULY 2011 Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment 76 of Offenders Bill domestic violence, there needs to be a unified definition Q170 Elizabeth Truss: Does it have to be legal advice? of violence. In our view, it should be the definition that Emma Scott: There is a place for legal advice, yes. has been adopted by the Government in their cross- Ruth Bond: I would say the same. We do not delve Government strategy and action plan to tackle violence into this in any great depth, but we certainly need to against women and girls. That is the Association of have other welfare things in there. The definition of Chief Police Officers definition of domestic violence, how you can get legal aid is too narrow. It needs to be which has been adopted by many other Departments, widened, and this should be included. the Crown Prosecution Service and the UK Border Agency. The Ministry of Justice itself has adopted it in a number of documents. There needs to be uniformity Q171 Elizabeth Truss: Do you think that our legal aid in any definition of violence in any legislation. We are bill is too high in this country? concerned that any provisions relating to bail adequately Emma Scott: I started to talk about that. You need to protect women. We know from the cases of Jane Clough look at the costs of not providing legal aid, particularly and Clare Bernal that there are very significant risks in the area that we are concerned about: domestic when perpetrators are released on bail—fatal risks to violence. We know from evidence that has been updated women. Therefore, any provisions relating to bail in recently that the costs of domestic violence, when women these kinds of cases need to be as strong as possible. are not able to get support and advice to make safe arrangements, for child contact for example, and resolve Q166 Helen Goodman: At the moment, women are financial and property disputes and become independent more likely to receive longer sentences for the same of those relationships— serious crimes as men.