Parliamentary Debates House of Commons Official Report General Committees
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PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee LOCALISM BILL Seventh Sitting Thursday 3 February 2011 (Morning) CONTENTS Written evidence reported to the House. CLAUSES 13 and 14 agreed to. SCHEDULE 4 agreed to. CLAUSES 15 and 16 agreed to. CLAUSE 17 under consideration when the Committee adjourned till this day at One o’clock. PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £4·00 PBC (Bill 126) 2010 - 2011 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office. No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Monday 7 February 2011 STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 279 Public Bill Committee3 FEBRUARY 2011 Localism Bill 280 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: MR DAVID AMESS,†HUGH BAYLEY † Alexander, Heidi (Lewisham East) (Lab) † Ollerenshaw, Eric (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con) Barwell, Gavin (Croydon Central) (Con) † Raynsford, Mr Nick (Greenwich and Woolwich) † Bruce, Fiona (Congleton) (Con) (Lab) † Cairns, Alun (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con) † Reynolds, Jonathan (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/ † Clark, Greg (Minister of State, Department for Co-op) Communities and Local Government) † Seabeck, Alison (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab) † Dakin, Nic (Scunthorpe) (Lab) Simpson, David (Upper Bann) (DUP) † Dromey, Jack (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab) † Smith, Henry (Crawley) (Con) † Elliott, Julie (Sunderland Central) (Lab) † Stewart, Iain (Milton Keynes South) (Con) † Gilbert, Stephen (St Austell and Newquay) (LD) † Stunell, Andrew (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of † Howell, John (Henley) (Con) State for Communities and Local Government) † Keeley, Barbara (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab) † Ward, Mr David (Bradford East) (LD) † Lewis, Brandon (Great Yarmouth) (Con) † Wiggin, Bill (North Herefordshire) (Con) McDonagh, Siobhain (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab) † Mearns, Ian (Gateshead) (Lab) Sarah Davies, Committee Clerk † Morris, James (Halesowen and Rowley Regis) (Con) † Neill, Robert (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government) † attended the Committee 281 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Localism Bill 282 When we adjourned on Tuesday, the Committee Public Bill Committee had agreed that clause 12 should stand part of the Bill. We now move on to clause 13, which is about predetermination—the difficulty that arises when people Thursday 3 February 2011 come to a meeting having already decided what they believe, irrespective of the evidence. That is not a problem (Morning) that we have here at all. Clause 13 [HUGH BAYLEY in the Chair] PRIOR INDICATIONS OF VIEW OF A MATTER NOT TO Localism Bill AMOUNT TO PREDETERMINATION ETC Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Written evidence to be reported to the Bill. House L 48 Philip Coleman Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): It is a pleasure to be back in Committee Room 12 for a L 49 David Alexander second day, for the seventh sitting of this Committee. L 50 Institute of Historic Building Conservation The Law Society has expressed concern about whether L 51 Highgate Society “closed mind” is the right term to use in subsection (1)(b). L 52 Development Trusts Association The Law Society feels that the benefit of the clause could be eroded if an individual expresses a view on L 53 County Councils Network development and is later perceived to have had a closed L 54 E.ON mind. That would make an individual susceptible to L 55 Professor Tony Warnes and Dr Maureen Crane challenge, and I do not think any of us want councillors L 56 Keep Britain Tidy to be challenged on such issues. Will the Minister consider tabling an amendment to correct that wording, if it is L 57 Federation of Master Builders problematic? L 58 British Retail Consortium L 59 Rick Long MRTPI Robert Neill: I have listened to the hon. Lady, and I L 60 Richard Carter will take the point on board, but we do not believe that L 61 Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council the wording is problematic. Lawyers are like economists: if there are enough of them in a room, there will be a L62Moat number of varying opinions. However, I do of course L 63 Highbury Group on Housing Delivery take the view of the Law Society seriously, and we will consider it. I get the sense from the hon. Lady’s observation 9.30 am that the objective of the clause is accepted by Members on both sides of the room, and given that, I hope that The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the clause may stand part as it is. If there is a difficulty, Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill): On I will happily speak to the Law Society and other a point of order, Mr Bayley. Good morning, and welcome interested parties and keep the hon. Lady informed. back to the Chair. On Tuesday, the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich raised the pertinent issue of charging being restricted to the territorial sea of the Barbara Keeley: Could the Minister report back at a United Kingdom or otherwise. I have written to him later stage, if that discussion produces anything worth today, and I have ensured that copies of the letter are while that I could then consider? available on the table. My letter confirms the prescience of the observation of the hon. Member for Plymouth, Robert Neill: Yes, I will happily do that. Moor View; the measure is designed to reflect provisions in the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004, so that the Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): My point relates to regimes are the same. It will cover not only the channel the definition of “relevant authority”. My constituency tunnel, but oil rigs and structures such as lighthouses has a unitary council, and subsection (4) mentions a that might be just beyond the territorial limit but could “county borough council”. Is that a unitary council for be reached by coastguard or other boats, if they required the purposes of the definition? Why were such councils the assistance of the fire services. not referred to in clause 7, where the definition of “local authority” excludes county borough councils and makes The Chair: I thank the Minister for that, although it no reference to unitary councils? is not strictly a point of order. Robert Neill: The provision mirrors the standard terminology. Although we have defined unitary councils, Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab): if we look at other enactments, we see that unitary Further to that point of order, Mr Bayley. I thank the councils are frequently referred to in legislation as district Minister for his most helpful contribution. or other councils. That does not create any problems, as I understand it. I assure my hon. Friend that the clause The Chair: Good. I am grateful to the Minister for covers all authorities, including unitary authorities, which coming back to the Committee, as he promised he would. have the functions of borough or county councils. She 283 Public Bill Committee3 FEBRUARY 2011 Localism Bill 284 can rest assured that the rule will apply to unitary accountability function of Parliament, and I would like councils as much as to any other councils, not least the Minister to tell me why the impact assessments were because my interest in the subject was prompted by the so late. difficulties my wife had when she was a member of a The impact assessment for this part of the Bill tells us unitary authority and found that she was constrained that the misconduct of failing to treat others with when raising issues on behalf of her constituents. respect amounts to 30% of breaches of the code, while acting in a manner that could reasonably be regarded as bringing the authority into disrepute amounted to 20%. Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab): Deep in the recesses The impact assessment says: of my mind, I seem to remember that county boroughs “Risks may arise from breaches related to bullying others or were established under the Municipal Corporations disclosing confidential information, but it would be possible for Act 1882. Many of those county boroughs have been authorities to put procedures into place to minimise these risks.” subsumed into unitary or metropolitan authorities, but As I see it, if codes of conduct were voluntary, the staff there are still some dotted around the country. of councils and members of the public would have no effective redress against such misconduct. Robert Neill: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. In evidence to the Committee, John Findlay of the This is one of those interchangeable bits of terminology, National Association of Local Councils made the case but the purpose of the clause is to capture all directly that there is a demand for a code of conduct: elected authorities. It also, for the sake of fullness, “Most of our councils welcomed the idea that they were includes co-opted—as well as elected—members of national subject to a code, but it was more on the basis that at least it was park authorities and other relevant bodies, such as the same that the principal authorities—the counties, districts and boroughs—were treated to”.