jWednesday, 9th November, 1977] 319119

CONSTITUTION ACT'S AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) Wednesday, the 9th November, 1977 Introduction and First Reading Bill introduced, on motion by the Hon. R. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. Clive Griffiths) Hetherington, and read a first time. took the Chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. LIQUOR ACT' AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) Report LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL Report of Committee adopted. Wearing of Safari Jackets; Statement by the President Third Reading Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. THE PRESIDENT (the Hon. Cive Griffiths): G. C. MacKinnon (Leader of the House), and Honourable members, I want to make a short transmitted to the Assembly. comment in connection with the wearing in the Legislative Council of safari jackets. MARKET!ING OF LAMB ACT' I have received several approaches over the last AMENDMENT BILL month or so from members who have requested Second Reading approval to be given for the wearing of this type Debate resumed from the 3rd November. of apparel. On previous occasions I have given THE HON. R. T. LEESON (South-East) (2.51 certain instructions as to what I felt were the p.m.]: This Bill seeks to amend the Marketing of desirable accessories to wear with such a suit. Lamb Act. The original Bill came to this place On reflection, and as a result of having been some time ago amidst a lot of controversy; a great approached again, I consider that the type of suit deal'of opposition was expressed to the proposal which is now worn by the Leader of the and in fact, throuighout. the time the legislation Opposition will be an acceptable apparel in the has been in force, opposition has come from certain future. quarters. However, I believe the legislation has stood the The IRon. R. G. Pike: A very sensible decision. test of time and it has been proved to the people The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: The trend setter! of Western Australia that it was a wise move. The establishment of the Lamb Marketing Board has The Hon. D. K. Dans: Do not embarrass me. helped to some degree to stabilise lamb prices in The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I wonder whether, Western Australia. The board also has been able Mr President, you would elaborate. Did you say, to gain access to lucrative overseas markets to "unacceptable"~ or "an acceptable"? such a degree that recently it was awarded the international Hoover Marketing Award. The PRESIDENT: I said, "an acceptable". Quite obviously, the board is doing its job well, I might add another point. The requirement and the amendments proposed in this Dill will still remains that the President will retain the enable it to tidy up certain anomalies. The right to suggest to a member that his apparel Opposition supports the Dill. ought to be altered, should the President think THE HON. C. W. BERRY (Lower North) that to be the situation. 12.52 p.m.); I support the Bill. The Hon. R. T. QUESTIONS Leeson mentioned that the Marketing of Lamb Act, which established the Lamb Marketing Questions were taken at this stage. Board, has been a very successful operation. I ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE: SPECIAL should like to hear just how successful it has been since its inception, because I do not remember THE HON. G. C. MacKINNON (South- hearing anything about it. I should like to hear West-Leader of the House) 12.47 p.m.]: I how well it has treated the growers, because it move- was with the growers in mind that the legislation That the House at its rising adjourn until was first brought forward, I should like to hear 11.00 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday). from the growers, particularly people who have an interest in this matter, just how the operations of Question put and passed. the board are affecting them. 3192 3192[COUNCIL]

It was claimed when the legislation was first acquisition of all meats were based upon the introduced that it would result in the consumer marketing of lamb. getting a better deal, but I have yet to hear The PRESIDENT: Order! Will the Minister whether in fact this was the case. Perhaps direct his comments to the Chair. someone who knows something about this matter could inform the House just how successful the The Ron. D. J, WORDSWORTH: I am sorry, legislation has been.. Mr President, if I am looking to the member who asked the THE HON. A. A. LEWIS (Lower Central) question. [2.54 p.m.J: I had no intentions of entering this The PRESIDENT: Please direct your debate, but I too have a few questions I would like comments to the Chair. to ask the Minister. Is it true that the best blues The IHon. A. A. Lewis: Is that why the and the best reds were being sold by the Lamb referendum was lost? Marketing Board at less than the purchase price at some stages during this season? Rumours have The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: Perhaps been flying around that purchasers have been there is a very critical group here which was paid more for the lambs than the board eventually surprised at the number of votes the acquisition received for the lambs. If that is good marketing, clause in fact received. Obviously, some people I would like the Minister to explain it to me. It is felt it would satisfy their needs. only a simple question, and I am sure the Minister It has been brought to my attention that will be able to answer it. consumption of lamb has dropped. THE HON. a. J. WORDSWORTH The Hon. W. M. Piesse: So has the price of (South-Minister for Transport) (2.55 p.m.]-. I beef. thank members for their support; I did not realise it would be so forthcoming! In regard to the The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I heard a success of the Lamb Marketing Board, as I stated rumour that a function soon to be held in Western in my second reading speech, the board received Australia would feature not Western Australian the international Hoover Marketing Award. That lamb but New Zealand lamb. most worthy organisation considers the The Hon. A, A. Lewis: Is that a certain ball development by the board of new markets in the which is to be held in the city tonight? Middle East to be worthy of recognition- The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I think the The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Can you explain how honourable member is' refierring to the Jubilee the board is able to sell lambs for less than it Ball which is to be held tomorrow night. At any purchased them? rate, that is the rumour which is going around. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: That is That might be the way in which the board is able probably how the board won the award. I often to sell at the price mentioned by the honourable wonder whether the producer is fully aware of member; perhaps it imports the lamb at a cheaper how the Lamb Marketing Board works, what its price, and then sells it at a higher one; I do not prices are based upon, and what actual know. I must admit that not a great deal of such negotiations are entered into. information is provided to producers who send The Hon. A. A. Lewis: You will explain it to their lambs to the board. US. I thank members for their support. I am sure The IHon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: As a that with these amendments, we will have a better producer, I am certainly not in a position to be Marketing of Lamb Act. able to answer that question; but I can say that Question put and passed. large numbers of producers and a major producer organisation are satisfied with the manner in Hill read a second time. which the board is operating, from the In Committee, etc. information they have been given. 'We have Bill passed through Committee without debate, recently seen a referendum on the marketing and reported without amendment, and the report acquisition or meat. adopted. The Hon. A. A. Lewis; Do you think it would be a good opportunity to have another referendum Third Reading on the marketing of lamb? Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: It is rather D. J. Wordsworth (Minister for Transport), and interesting that the arguments used for the passed. [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 393193

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT' also mean a gain to ratepayers as it ensures there AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) are highly skilled people operating in the service. Second Reading The other main amendment covers budgeting provisions. The Minister has informed us that the Debate resumed from the 8th November. Act requires local authority budgets to be THE HON. R. F. CLAUGH-TON (North balanced, and he has indicated that some Metropolitan) (3.00 p.m.]: We are in that period authorities have had difficulty in meeting this of the session where we seem to have less time for requirement. One of the practices that has been the study of legislation and I find myself in that adopted was for local authorities to take out bank situation with this Bill. The Bill has made its way overdrafts which gave them access to funds that through the Legislative Assembly and my would not normally be available to them. colleagues in that House have studied it and I do not think that practice was altogether assured me they have no objection to its approved under the Act. But where an authority, provisions. For my part I would like more time to particularly a large authority which had to meet study the measure personally, because on past big demands and was unable to raise sufficient experience I have found there are often matters I funds from revenue or loan funds, needed funds see in legislation that have been overlooked by this was one way it could service its needs. This other individuals. practice has probably been adopted quite widely. I have done my best to go through this The sort of examples that the Minister spoke of legislation, but the shortage of time did not allow I cannot verify, and I must accept the Minister's me to relate it altogether to the provisions in the assurances that this does take place. The main principal Act. I cannot say whether there are any problems that have been caused in local authority problems that may arise from that aspect. One of budgeting, as I understand it, was where the two main provisions in the Bill introduces authorities had overspent or overborrowed and got uniformity governing tong service leave which is themselves into a position where they could not portable between municipalities. raise from their receipts sufficient finance to Here again we have one of those matters that service the loans they had taken out. The policing for a long time have been proposed and promoted of this action would be more a job for the auditor by members of the Opposition, and we have who should, in his examination of the shire's brought various Bills to Parliament relevant to the books each year, make sure the authority was not subject. All I can say is that we have to agree that getting itself into that sort of position. this is a very sensible proposal, and I am pleased If this new arrangement comes into practice we to see the parties in opposition to us have come to will have to rely on the good sense of the see the good sense in what we have been councillors and staff to ensure that an authority promoting for so long. does not get itself into financial difficulty. I believe that a burden will continue to be placed on Local government is a career servi c, the auditor to see that is not done. particularly for the more senior officials in it who see their opportunities for promotion in ascending Clause 15 amends section 599A which makes scale. Local government is a service requiring reference to the Pensioners (Rates Rebates and very detailed knowledge of Statute law; probably Deferments) Act. The Government's recently more so than any other single area of government. introduced system for 25 per cent rebates appears The Local Government Act itself is probably the to have been very popular with pensioner most voluminous of all Acts, and it contains more ratepayers in my electorate. I had suggested that a system which contains complications than any other Act. an income qualification may enable this sort of principle to be extended to I suppose that of all legislation existing the a wider group of people who would be in a similar Local Government Act would be the one that financial circumstance as that of pensioners. I meets with most amendments each year. There refer to people who are superannuants and others are usually three or four Bills introduced each receiving pensions from elsewhere. session to amend the Act. This Bill is the second I have currently a couple of constituents for this session, but it covers a number of making representations to me. The wife is the amendments to various sections of the Act. recipient of an Australian pension, and the The introduction of uniform long service leave husband receives an English pension. They are provisions that would apply to all shires can only both pensioners receiving no more than other be of benefit to the local authorities and to the couples in receipt of Australian pensions, but people employed in the service. I think it would because he is in receipt of an English pension they 3194 3194[COUNCIL] are not able to claim the 25 per cent rebate, and session. I am aware of this and I can assure this creates a problem for them. members that in so far as I have had any hand in We have considered the possibility of their the matter-the fact is that the Parliamentary claiming 50 per cent of the 25 per cent, but we Draftsmen come under my control-I have have been told that it cannot be done. I have not endeavoured to use what little influence I have to fully examined that situation, but I draw the expedite Bills and bring them along more Minister's attention to it as an anomaly which regularly. may be covered in some way. It is extremely difficult when dealing with a The other provisions of the Act try to cover number of different departments, and Ministers anomalies and complexities which arise under the have many other calls on their time. However, one legislation from time to time. For instance the Act of the problems may be overcome to a certain states that the mayor, president, or chairman extent if we have more Bills introduced in the holds office until the first meeting after the 24th Legislative Council and thelreby spread the load May which is the fourth Saturday in May, this between the Assembly and the Council. I hope being the date on which local government this will come about, although it remains to be elections are held each year. This means that the seen whether it does. It was one of the objects of existing president is not in a position to take the the amending Bill. chair for that meeting and the election of a Nevertheless, the honourable member has president would have to take place at an informal drawn attention to a number of matters; the gathering perhaps immediately prior to the anomaly to which he has referred in regard to commencement of the first formal meeting after pensions and which he said he is still exploring the election. When the council is evenly divided will be referred to the Minister for Local then a shire would be confronted with the Government; and the other comments he has problem of continuing for a period without an made will certainly be drawn to the Minister's elected head. Obviously, that is an unsatisfactory attention. I commend the Bill to the House. situation which the amendment is designed to Question put and passed. Overcome. Bill read a second time. Similar rules apply to the deputy chairman. I In Committee, etc. am not sure whether both positions would meet with the same result, but as it is conceivable, it is Bill passed through Committee without debate, sensible to make provision in case it does. reported without amendment, and the report adopted. Those are the only comments I have on the Bill which the Opposition supports. Third Reading THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. 1. (Metropolitan-Attorney-General) [3.13 P.m.]: I G. Medcalf (Attorney-General), and passed. thank the honourable member for his consideration of the Dill in the very short time DOG ACT AMENDMENT BILL which has been available to him to study it. As he Second Reading knows, on previous occasions I have lamented what occurs at the end of the session when Bills Debate resumed from the 8th November. come flocking in without adequate time to THE HON. F. E. McKENZIE (East consider them; and I share his concern that it is Metropolitan) [3.17 p.m.]: The Opposition not possible for all members to give the legislation supports the Bill which provides for a concessional the careful attention it deserves. fee for the registration of dogs kept in kennel The Hon. R. F. Claughton: On this occasion we establishments in lieu of individual registration of had 3 / hours of meetings before the House met. the dogs. If that had not been the case I would have had On page 4 of the Minister's second reading sufficient time. speech, he said- The Hon. 1. G, MEDCALE: Even so I think it As kennel owners effecting registration is quite difficult. I would hope-and here I am under this provision will not be issued with expressing only- a hope-that with the passage of registration discs for their dogs, the Bill also the amending legislation to the Constitution it provides for such persons to be exempted may be possible in future sessions for more Bills from the requirement that a dog must have a to be introduced in the Legislative Council. One valid registration disc attached to its collar of the real problems is the number of Bills which whenever it is in a place to which the public come from the Assembly towards the end of a has access. [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977]119 3195

The proposed kennel registration fee will be producers are tied very stringently to the optional so that kennel owners who would be processors from whom they purchase their feed disadvantaged by die payment of the and are governed by contracts to supply certain fec-initially it is intended to prescribe a fee of amounts of chicken meat over set periods. Many $50 per annum-can eject to register dogs arguments have arisen as to exactly where the separately at the normal registration rate. profits are going. The committee will arbitrate to Therefore they have the option of the concession establish a common-sense profit line between the or registering individually. producer and the processor. Apparently under the old legislation ther~e was Other clauses of the Bill are mainly machinery such a provision, but for some reason, unknown to provisions to enable the committee to function me, it was omitted when the Act was re-enacted properly. last year. The Bill merely puts back into the We have noticed quite often that when legislation a provision which was included legislation to establish statutory committees is previously. This is quite reasonable, and I have introduced by the Government no provision is pleasure in supporting the Bill. made for the inclusion of a representative of THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF employees. It has been argued many times in this (Metropolitan-Attorney-General) [3.19 p.m.]: I place that such provision should be made, but so thank the honourable member for his support of far without a great deal of success. the Bill and confirm that we are putting back into Where money is involved and producers and the legislation something which it contained processors are paying large sums in wages, it must before, and thereby we are providing for bulk have a great bearing on the economy of the discounting on dogs. industry itself, and no doubt such factors should Question put and passed. be taken into consideration when the committees Bill read a second time. sit down to arbitrate on prices between the two parties. I think a great deal more understanding In Committee, etc. would be brought about by having employee Bill passed through Committee without debate, representatives on the committees so that all reported without amendment, and the report parties can put their point of view; and perhaps adopted. industrial trouble would be less prevalent in Third Reading industry. Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. 1. That is a strong point with us on this side of the G. Medcalf (Attorney-General), and passed. House and I urge the Government to consider this question when bringing such Bills forward. CHICKEN MEAT INDUSTRY BILL THE HON. 0. N. B. OLIVER (West) [3.26 p.m.): I wish to speak briefly to the Bill. I would Second Reading have thought some mention would have been Debate resumed from the 3rd November. made of the fact that the legislation was designed THE HON. R. T. LEESON (South-East) [3.22 to protect a small business. p.m.]: The chicken industry in Western Australia Another matter it seeks to protect is the system has grown enormously over the last few years, of arbitration. Under the previous legislation the particularly in the last 10 years. The production ,arbitration process became deadlocked. Common in Western Australia in 1970 was 10 million sense did not prevail. Common sense does not birds; in 1977 it is estimated production will be often come in large quantities, and it is quite 15.5 million birds, almost all for home often not found in people of high intelligence. consumption. So the people of Western Australia Common sense is a gift, and it is unfortunate that today eat a considerable amount of chicken in in the previous legislation common sense did not various forms. prevail in relation to the arbitration provisions The main text of the Bill is related to the and deadlocks occurred. I understand that under establishment of a committee to arbitrate on the legislation now before us arbitration will be prices between producers and processors. able to proceed much more quickly, and the Problems have been experienced in the industry Minister may appoint a person in a particular over many years, and they are not foreign to this professional category-be it technical or State. In the Eastern States it was found that financial-to expedite the breaking of deadlocks. processors have been tightening the screws on The previous speaker mentioned the role of producers for many years and narrowing the employees on various committees. Since I became margin on which they operate. It appears a member of this House it has appeared to me 3196 3196[COUNCIL] that if a matter cannot be resolved we appoint a Clause 7: Members- committee comprising as many representatives as The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT. I propose to move possible. 1 am not in any way against the two amendments to this clause, and I am sorry I participation of employees to assist in determining have not had a chance to run off a copy for the their destiny, but surely this particular industry Minister. The first is to delete the word "seven" legislation is hardly a forum for that type of in line 27 and to substitute the word "eight". The philosophy. If people of that particular political second amendment is to insert a new paragraph to persuasion put forward this philosophy in relation stand as paragraph (d) as follows- to another type of legislation where it might be of value to have participation by employees, I would (d) one person appointed to be representative of -employees in the be only too happy to examine the proposition. industry after consultation by the I support the Bill and hope we will keep the Minister with such body o rbodies legislation under constant review to ensure a representing the interests of employees monopoly situation does not arise. We of the as the Minister determines. Government parties are supposed to be the The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (the Hon. R. J. bedfellows of monopolies, but I am pleased to see L. Williams): Would you please provide the Chair the Government is moving to protect the interests with a Copy Of the amendment? of small businessmen in this instance. The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT: Yes, Sir. THE HON. a. J. WORDSWORTH (South-Minister for Transport) [3.30 p.m.I: I When Mr Leeson spoke he referred to the need thank the two members who have spoken for their for employee representation on boards and support of the Bill. Like Mr Oliver, I believe this committees in various industries. I think this is is not the sort of committee on which we should very important; it is not just a question of have worker participation, because it comprises determining wages, as the Minister and Mr Oliver two equally divided groups which will be trying to suggested. What people seem to fail to understand sort out the price of a commodity. I really wonder is that there is more to industrial relations than what would happen if we used this committee as a establishing fair wages. There is also job forum for industrial arbitration in respect of satisfaction and a feeling on the part of employees wages. that they arc considered to be worth-while human beings and able to make a contribution to the We have seen problems arising in the chicken industry if they are consulted on various issues. meat industry in Western Australia and in This makes them feel important to the industry. Australia, just as we see them occurring in America in respect of the marketing of if we are really concerned about industrial agricultural products. The situation in America is relations surely we should be trying to achieve completely different from ours. The setup in that more consultation with a very vital sector of any country is tied in with the monopolistic ability of industry. We have argued this matter on a those who control the sales outlets to be able to number of occasions in this Chamber. I remember grant contracts for the supply of goods which go that we tried to include a workers' representative through their outlets. When one looks at the on the Midland Junction Abattoir Board, but that market situation in America one finds about nine was rejected by this Chamber. I also moved an major chains cater for the 250 million people in amendment to have a workers' representative on that country, which is rather amazing. This the meat board. makes one realise the difficulties experienced in The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: I endeavoured to that country, the indications of which we are just explain that this committee is slightly different beginning to see in our chicken meat industry. from those sorts of boards. I hope this new Bill will resolve the difficulties The H-on. LYLA ELLIOTT: I realise that, but we are experiencing in the industty in this State. the point is that the Minister has told us that this- Question put and passed. committee is to arbitrate between processors and producers. Bill read a second time. The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Over prices; that In Committee is the main thing. They will negotiate contracts. The Deputy Chairman of Committees (the The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT: But that is not the Hon. R. J, L. Williams) in the Chair; the Hon. D. only thing, because if the Minister looks at clause J. Wordsworth (Minister for Transport) in charge 15(e) relating to the functions of the committee of the Bill. he will see that one such function is to report to Clauses I to 6 put and passed. the Minister on any matter relating to the chicken [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977])19 3197 meat industry referred to it by the Minister, or on I think the arguments have been mainly about any miatter on which it considers it should report contracts between the two main groups. The to the Minister. That is all embracing; it does not employees are not involved to this extent in this refer just to price; it could refer to hygiene in the Bill and it would be wrong to include them. There industry, methods of processing, methods of are Bills in -which they could be included, but not marketing, and so on. this one. Therefore I oppose the amendment. Apart from the fact that it would be good The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: The public relations to have a representative of Government is of the opinion that this legislation workers on the committee, Mr Oliver pointed out is necessary and the reason it has been brought that we should use common sense. Too often do down can be seen on page I of the second reading we overlook the fact that people who work in an speech notes. It is designed to ensure that a industry are able to contribute a great deal of balance is maintained between the legitimate common sense to the planning and policy-making interests of growers and processors so that the of that industry, because they work in it and see interests of one group are not disadvantaged by what occurs on the factory floor and on the farm. the interests of the other. It is about time we started looking to these I point out that this fine balance of keeping the people to make a contribution on all committees two bodies in an equal state of negotiation is very and boards which have the responsibility to ensure important, and suddenly to throw in a completely the smooth functioning of an industry. The different organisation, however good the reason chicken meat industry is becoming a large may be, would result in another deadlock and the industry which employs many workers. I know the whole industry starting to get into disarray. producers themselves provide a great deal of The Hion. LYLA ELLIOTT: We are labour, but also there are many employees who appointing an officer of the Department of provide the major part of the labour, and they Agriculture to this committee and he does not should be entitled to be consulted and given an have a vested interest in. the organisations opportunity to express their opinion. representing the processors and the growers. So I move an amendment- we could apply the arguments which have been Page 4, line 21-Delete the word "seven" made in respect of a representative of the employees and substitute the word "eight". to this person. The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: I must confess The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I oppose the that I am getting on my feet the intention of somewhat amendment. We must consider unprepared to speak. the legislation. I am sure Miss Elliott has moved the amendment with good intention, but I think The Hon. V. J. Ferry: That is the usual way, is she slightly misunderstands the Bill. This is an it not? industry Bill to deal with two main groups: the The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON:. We do not processors and the growers. It is intended to deal need the facetious comments. I support my mainly with contractual arrangements, pricing, colleague who moved the amendment, but I can and marketing. see difficulties in its being accepted by the If we look at the functions contained in another Government without consultation with the people clause of the Bill, it is stretching a long bow to concerned, although the progress of the Bill could suggest that this committee could be involved to a be delayed to enable that to take place. great extent in anything other than marketing, In all such matters it is reasonable to have except perhaps advising the Minister. If it is discussions with the people directly concerned suggested that the employee group should be before any changes are made. At the same time it represented, perhaps we should be including is useful to examine the worth' of this type of consumers, retail outlets, and feed companies. A move and, like Miss Elliott, I believe that much number of people in the industry are vitally can be contributed to the industry by including concerned, but this Bill is designed to solve some representatives of the work force even if, as in this of the problems which arise in the industry case, this committee is designed to iron out between the two main groups-the processors and problems that arise between the processors and the growers. the producers. The growers are mainly family groups and, Like my colleague, I should like tQ refer to the therefore, do not use much labour in that respect. comment made by Mr Oliver about common I guess that is one of the reasons it is a very sense. The workers in the industry are very much efficient industry; the processors realise this and involved in the practicalities of the operation of that is why they use the growers to great effect. the industry, and studies df productivity often 3198 3198[COUNCIL] show that their goad sense and practical intend to press the matter. I am pleased Miss experience contribute very real benefits to the Elliott has taken the opportunity to bring this particular operation or industry. matter to the attention of the Government. I hope Sitting suspended from 3.4S to 4.00 p.m. members opposite give some real consideration to it, and will not let it rest with the debate in this The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: Before the Chamber. afternoon tea suspension, we were discussing the amendment moved by Miss Elliott to place a While there is likely to be reluctance on the representative of the employees on the committee. part of people interested in this industry to accept The intention of the committee is to give a such a proposition, it is worth while to see what balance of the forces which operate between the can be done. Mr Masters and the Minister have processors and the producers. It may be argued said this is not an appropriate proposal; but I that a representative of the employees may upset would disagree with thei. There are benefits to that balance. However, that need not necessarily be gained, because on all questions related to the be the case. If a person is appointed he could be welfare of the industry the employees are as much given nonvoting rights; and, as I stated previously, concerned as the management. I am sure they such a person could contribute a great deal of would want to take whatever opportunities were common sense to the discussion and should not be open to them to participate. seen as a person who would be antagonistic to the The Hon. F. E. McKENZIE: I have listened to interests of the employers. the debate on this proposed amendment to clause I think it is something of a fallacy that such a 7 and I have decided I will rise and speak to it. I conflict necessarily exists. There are differences in believe the amendment has some merit. I disagree with what has been said earlier that there the interests of the two parties as far as the does working and pay conditions are concerned; but not appear to be any need to have a workers' representative sitting on the committee. I believe there is a common interest in ensuring that the if a workers' representative was business continues to operate and operate permitted to sit in on the committee it would facilitate the situation. successfully. If a representative of the producers We must bear in mind that there are three was appointed, such a person could contribute to representatives from the processors and three the interests of the producers by putting forward representatives from the growers; therefore, the a point of view of the industry as seen from their wor kers' representative would be one man only. I location within it. The same may be said of believe a workers' representative sitting in and employees on the processors' side. advising the people on the committee as to the I know Mr Williams has taken an interest in feelings of the workers in the industry, would hayv'e the question of productivity. He has spoken at a very good influence on the decisions they arrive some length on the subject. Of course, he is at. unable to speak on the matter today because he is As labour is such an important factor in the acting as Deputy Chairman. The evidence industry, surely it warrants some consideration. A presented by the productivity council shows that worker would be appointed to the committee in an where a genuine effort is made by both parties to advisory capacity. improve communications and relationships between the management and the work force The IHon. G. E. Masters: He would not have there is benefit to both sides. voting rights; he would be in an advisory capacity. Is that what you are saying? It is unfortunate that in the main within the Australian business community there is The Hon. F. E. McKENZIE: I cannot see why antagonism to this sort of move and employers he should not have voting rights and perhaps he generally see themselves as being threatened by could have the casting vote. Why should the moves towards participation. We still have a long person from the department have the casting way to go before business people generally accept vote?. this idea. It is part-of our role as members of The Hon. G. E. Masters: You have not read the Parliament to lead the community in these areas legislation. and to encourage both sides to display a more The Hon. F. E. McKENZIE: I have not got tolerant attitude and a greater degree of that far yet. I did not intend to take part in this responsibility. particular debate and for that reason I have not If an opportunity can be taken when setting up thoroughly read the Bill. I have given it a cursory this committee, to advance the cause I have just glance; but I paid particular attention to clause 7 mentioned, it would be Worth while for the during the debate. Government to take that opportunity. I do not I think the labour content is the major one in [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 319919 any industry and this is true of the industry which Clause put and passed. we are discussing at the present time. A workers' Clauses 8 to 28 put and passed. representative on the committee would be in a Title put and passed. position to give advice as to how the workers see the situation at any given time. He may be able to Report advise the other members of the committee in Bill reported, without amendment, and the terms which will enable them to determine the report adopted. price of the particular chicken at that particular Third Reading tire, or he may assist them to come to the Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. conclusion that they should wait a little longer to D. J1.Wordsworth (Minister for Transport), and see whether there is likely to be an increase in the passed. cost of labour. A workers' representative would be well aware if there was an intention on the part of the workers, through their unions, to seek METROPOLITAN WATER SUPPLY, wage SEWERAGE, AND DRAINAGE ACT increases from the employer. That is one capacity AMENDMENT BILL in which I think he would be of advantage. For that reason I believe this proposed amendment Second Reading ought not to be dismissed lightly and some Debate resumed from the 8th November. thought ought to be given to the proposal. THE HON. IR. HETHERINGTON (East The IHon. G. E. MASTERS: I think the last Metropolitan) [4.19 p.m.]): Like my colleague, the speaker perhaps does not understand or has not Hon. Roy Claughton, I have had very little time had the opportunity of reading the legislation. I to look at this Bill. Lacking his experience and point out to him that the problem has been one of surefootedness with legislation, I am even worse conflict between the processors and the growers. off than he was. The existing committee was set up representing It became obvious in the debate we had on the the processors and the growers equally. Three earlier Dill to validate certain actions, that some representatives from each side of the industry such measure was essential and that the Act did were appointed and a chairman was nominated by have to be amended. Therefore, the Opposition the Minister. The chairman came from the supports the principle of the Bill, but I am not Department of Agriculture, and he would not sure we support the detail of the Bill because I have voting rights. He would be present to chair have not worked out what it means. In other the meeting. The processors and the growers words, when the Bill goes through I will reserve would discuss their problems and hopefully come my right if I find I have let something slip to say to a decision. If they do not arrive at a decision, this was due to inadvertence, and I hope it will normally they are equally divided and this has not be said by the Government that the been largely the problem. Opposition gave the measure blanket support. The Minister then decides that an arbitrator There is one matter which does worry me. It could be appointed, if it was so desired, and the has been relayed to me that at least one shire arbitrator would make the final decision. If we council is concerned about clause 9 which refers now decide to appoint an employees' to reticulation or other minor works. The clause is representative with voting rights, we would set out very much like the present section 23C, destroy the whole purpose of the Dill which is to which it will replace, and I presume that the work get the processor and the grower together to make will be the same, to some extent at least. a joint decision. For the employees' representative Proposed new section 23 will allow the to have the casting vote would confuse the issue. Governor, by order, to declare that certain minor There would have to be an employee from the works shall. be exempt from the provisions of procssors and an employee from the growers sections 19, 20, 21, or 22. Proposed new also. However, I disagree with the proposal. subsection (2) reads- The amendment is designed to appoint an In relation to exempt Works the Board may1 employees' representative and I do not think it is depart from the proposals and plans practical in the situation. If we look at the published to such extent as it considers functions of the committee, we see this legislation necessary or convenient in the does not lend itself to the proposition put forward circumstances .. by members opposite. There are many occasions Some people are afraid that this exemption can be on which it does, but in this situation it does not. gradually extended, and I would like the Minister Amendment put and negatived. to give us some sort of criteria for minor works. I 3200 3200[COUNCIL] would like him to tell us the difference between raised by the honourable member, there is no minor works and major Works; is there somewhere definition in the Bill or in the Act that I can see in that a line can be drawn? Can the Minister give the short time I have had to examine the question. an assurance to the people in the shires that this There is no definition of minor or Major Works. will not become the thin edge of the wedge? The I do not doubt that an engineer from the Governor will be able to exempt minor works, and Metropolitan Water Supply Department could minor works can become more and more major answer the question off pat, because from until they are major works. practical experience he would clearly know the I am not reading any ill intent into this Bill, let difference; nor do I doubt that there would be a me assure the Attorney-General; I am quite sure strict category of minor works. In this particular the Bill is sincere in its aims, and that the clause there is reference to reticulation or other Government is trying to sort out a tangled web in minor works, .so clearly reticulation is regarded as the present Act by a sensible method. However, minor works. this is the problem in the minds of some people, I imagine there must be some distinct way of and there is a possibility, of course, that determining whether Works are minor or major, departments which are interested and which do but I am afraid I cannot supply the key at the not want to be scrutinised too severely have a moment. However, we have had reference in an tendency to expahd the area in which exemptions earlier Bill to major works, and those works might be brought down. included the .Jandakot underground water For this reason I do ask the Minister whether scheme, the South Dandatup Dam, and the he could be a little more specific about what Serpentine Dam. I believe that major works minor works are under the terms of this Bill, and would really be works of a substantial nature, whether. there are any criteria laid down which none of us could doubt as being classed anywhere. The provision looks to be arbitrary, but major I know it is not meant to be. I am aware there are The Hon. R. Hetherington: I think there is a problems and I am not trying to be difficult. I am fear that the Government will do a "Jandakot" on trying to see whether the Minister can give an the people under "minor works". I accept the assurance that will set at rest the real fears of assurance from the Attorney-General that that some people in the community. will not be the case. As I have said, the principle of the Bill seemsjto The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: If that were to be eminently sensible. I am not sure of the details happen I think we would have a solicitor issuing a because I needed rather more time than I have writ against the Metropolitan Water Supply had to comb through the Bill. However, I assume Department on the grounds that it was that the Bill is basically all right because its undertaking major works classed as minor works. intention is merely to rectify quite clear defects in We would probably have to allow the case to go the parent Act. Therefore, the Opposition to court, and have the costs awarded against us. Supports the Bill, but looks for some explanation The Hon. D. K. Dans: Is it possible for the and assurance from the Minister. Attorney-General to obtain a definition? Would it THE HON. I. G. MEDCALF be possible to get a ruling from the Metropolitan (Metropolitan-Atorney-General) [4.23 p.m.]:I Water Supply Department? thank the honourable member for his support'of The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: Most certainly. I the Bill. I appreciate that his support is in would not like to-hold up the Bill at this stage, but principle only, and that he reserves the right at I will certainly obtain a ruling and convey it to some future time to say he did not agree to the the Leader of the Opposition, or to this House, entire Bill and that he has the opportunity to have before the completion of this session. another say on something but of course the Bill The Hon. D. K. Dans: I would prefer that the will be law. That is understood and I have already definition be provided for the benefit of members indicated it is unfortunate indeed that we have so in this House. little time at the end of the session to consider some Bills, whereas earlier in the session we had The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: If my assurance is unlimited time and we did not have very much to satisfactory, I -commend the second reading of the do. I hope that will be rectified. Bill. Question put and passed. The Hon. R. Hetherington: We appreciate the Minister's remarks, and accept them in the spirit Bill read a second time. given. In Committee, etc. The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF: On the subject Bill passed through Committee without debate, [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 320130 reported without amendment, and the report the wide study of the humanities and the care of adopted. the persons in the community is a part of the Third Reading course in professional training that is very much neglected. Bill read a third time, onmotion by the Hon. 1. Consequently, people concerned mainly 1 with social welfare find that they come up against G. Medcalf (Attorney-Generl), and passed. a great barrier of ignorance when trying to talk to professionals such as legal practitioners about the LEGAL AID COMMISSION ACT very real needs of ordinary people in ordinary AMENDMENT BILL places who are on low incomes. Quite often such Second Reading people are expected to muster up resources and they simply cannot do this. So when the Attorney- Debate resumed from the 8th November. General is considering the composition of these THE HON. GRACE VAUGHAN (South-East advisory committees, I hope he will include Metropolitan) [4.30 p.m.]: We support this Bill people-although not necessarily from other which is a very extensive one. During the debate professions-who are known to be well versed in on the parent legislation to set up a State legal aid the problems of the community. agency, a great deal of controversy, doubt, and I will not say very much more about the Bill worry arose about the transition of people who because I believe it is a genuine attempt to could not afford to attend private practitioners for incorporate into the original Act provisions that legal aid from the Commonwealth legal aid have been found to be necessary in the light of authority to this new embryonic body which is experience. It is too early yet to say whether this being brought forth in a rather turbulent type of body which was set up to ensure that people of labour. modest means could obtain legal aid is a I expressed many doubts about that legislation. completely satisfactory body. I feel that the My interest in social welfare is such that I know Attorney-General himself still sees this agency as the great importance of a good and reliable legal being in the growing stage. Probably in the future aid body to care for those people who cannot other amendments will be presented to update the afford to pay for private practitioners. It was legislation and to make it a more effective legal anticipated at the time by the Attorney-Genera!, aid body. by me, and by others, that there would need to be As I said before, subjectivity is one of the main a very close watch kept on this body in order that factors involved. Even the decisions of the Legal the parent Act could be amended to provide for Aid Commission must be seen as being fairly eventualities that would emerge only with subjective. Decisions as to the type of legal aid to experience. I am pleased to see that the Bill be given in certain cases will be dictated probably before us contains an extensive number of by the number of people available in a particular amendments and from my perusal of them, they area of expertise within the law to give advice. It will help to ensure that the body works effectively will be dictated also of course by. the funds and that it is well served in regard to advice from available. Quite often a decision-almost an the community. economic choice-will have to be made by the I feel that some of' the provisions for the Legal Aid Commission about the type of legal composition of the consultative committees leave advice to be given. a great deal in the hands of the Attorney-General. I think you might be interested to know, Mr I have a high regard for the integrity of our President, that the lawyers in training at the Attorney-General, and I believe he will appoint university, together with their lecturers and other those people who will be of great use in giving academic staff, have set up an advisory body in advice to the people seeking legal aid. However1 conjunction with a community counselling service this is a very subjective riatter, and in the future which the university is sponsoring through its we may not have an Attorney-General with the psychology department at Nedlands. This body necessary degree of compassion for the people does not purport to give legal advice per se but, who need this type of care. rather, it advises people whether they should seek The wording of the Bill is a little vague about legal advice. This is a big barrier which the public the type of people who will be asked to sit on the faces, and one which needs to be overcome. The advisory committees. It is very important that we law is a rather frightening thing for ordinary attempt-and I hope the Attorney-General will people in the community. A person may visit a do this-to -appoint persons other than legal busy legal practitioner and take up an hour of the practitioners to the advisory committees. In these practitioner's time to tell about his fears. He may days of high specialisation within the professions, find in the end that although he has to pay out a (101) 3202 3202[COUNCIL] large sum of money, he need not have gone to the represented a considerable amount. It was ruled legal practitioner at all. This is hard to take when that this family was not entitled to legal aid. The one is budgeting; indeed, none of us wants to Attorney-General may be able to inform me spend money unnecessarily. whether property will be a determinant in regard I sincerely hope that this Bill, in conjuction to a person's assistance through the legal aid with the Act, will provide us with a more effective office. If it is, I hope the Government will body in the State for the provision of legal advice. consider this matter so that a person's income is the only determinant used in assessing whether THE HON. R. F. CLAUGHTON (North Metropolitan) [4.39 p.m.]: I would like to support aid will be given. the remarks of my colleague. I cannot say I am THE HON. I. G. MEDCALF pleased to see what will be the demise of the (Metropolitan-Attorney-General) [4.45 p.m.]: I Australian Legal Aid Office. This office fulfilled thank the Hon. Grace Vaughan and the Hon. R. a function in the community, even though it was F. Claughton for their comments on this Bill. I do restricted to Commonwealth matters. I have had so particularly because I know that, in common contact with people who found it necessary to with other members of the Australian Labor seek the service of this office, and its officers had Party, they had very grave doubts as to whether it a variety of experience in many matters. was right to change from the system of the However, one of the problems in conducting a Australian Legal Aid Office into the State legal aid service is the limitations that apply when orientated Legal Aid Commission. Of course, as a person seeks assistance. One needed a very low members know, this change has not quite yet income indeed to be granted assistance from this taken place; there has been a delay of some office, so many people who deserved this months due largely to negotiations in relation to assistance were unable to obtain it. the staff, in order to try to accommodate staff As Mrs Vaughan said, the attitude of the problems like superannuation, transferability, and public towards the law is one which is conditioned the like. by the fear that if they approach a lawyer they I am told all these problems now have been will be lumbered with substantial expenses. I am sorted out, and the State Government in fact is afraid such things happen all too frequently. The about to sign an agreement with the role that is to be played by the university group Commonwealth Government. This agreement is which Mrs Vaughan mentioned will fill a gap that in its final form; in fact, the final draft came to exists between the profession itself and the legal me about three days ago and I regret to say I was aid group. People will be able to approach the reading it last night. I hope we will be in a university group to decide whether they actually position to start giving legal aid early next year need legal aid. under the new commission. The Legal Aid Commission should be able to I knew the Hon. Grace Vaughan would be very fulfil this role itself, and the university group has interested in the consultative committees. The Bill emerged because of the gap to which we have provides that wherever there are local committees, referred. I hope that the State legal aid office local people may be consulted; such people as does all the things it is supposed to do and that it local businessmen and people involved in trade will provide a service to meet the needs of the and other local community aspects may be community. I hope that not too many limitations included on these committees. This is a very wide are placed on the community's access to it. embracing area from which to draw. We can Even a person who may appear to have draw from social welfare people, trades people, reasonable means can find that those means are trade unions and business groups. I would hope inadequate when he is confronted with a we get widely representative groups who in fact substantial legal bill. Personal property is taken were keen on legal aid. into account when assessing an applicant's means, I am not letting out any secrets when I say I and this can make a great difference to the result. resisted a request by the ALAO staff association I do not know whether that factor will be taken to have a member on the committee. As I say, it is into account when assessing someone's no secret because basically they have been entitlement to legal aid from the State office. In opposing this system. I felt that was something fact, I have no experience with the State legal aid which should be left for the future; when it gets office because all the cases I have been involved going that question can be further considered. I with related to Commonwealth matters. told the Commonwealth Attorney-General that in I have one particular case in mind where the due course we can have another look at this family income was fairly low, and yet their assets aspect. (Wednesday, 9th November, 1977J]20 3203

I am quite certain there will be further ways it can be a waste of the time of a legal amendment of ibis legislation. If it is to work, we practitioner. He may listen to somebody for an Are going to see a problem here and a problem hour and then say. "You do not need a lawyer; there which will need to be rectified by you should go around to the Department of Social legislation, and I am certain we will have an Security and fill out a pension form." Or, he may. annual Bill for two or three years to straighten send them around to the Family Court to Aill out out problem areas. an application to have somebody's costs taxed by On the question of consultative committees, I the Family. Court; that is free, of charge, This give an assurance that I will look very carefully at function is something for which one does not need who are to be members to try to get a body which a lawyer; it can be supplied by any group, is representative of the local community. The therefore it is quite important to have a group* number of legal practitioners will be very limited. such as th *eone operating at the university. The Act lays down that one person will be a On the actual question or' giving legal aid to member of the Law Society and one person will people, I have had a great deal of experience in be an officer of the commission and, of course, this area and it was a bit of a relief to learn that they will be legal practitioners. the university group was not actually giving legal However, the Bill also provides for such other aid. Having had practical experience advising' persons as may be considered appropriate, which people, I know that all the theory in the world is virtually puts no limit on the number of people not going to help. An inexperienced person can who may be appointed. I will certainly try to draw talk in general terms of theories, cases and in representative groups because I am sure there principles-important though they may be-but will be strength in this committee. They will not when it comes down to the problem of A, B, or X receive any remuneration, but they will be and how one is actually going to help them, a reimbursed for their expenses. I am sure there will great deal of experience generally is required. be strength in getting together a group which will The whole secret of a successful practising be able to give advice and consider cases. I am lawyer is to be able to tell very quickly just what sure these committees will perform useful work. is the problem and then give the advice that he The remarkable thing is that when people are would give himself, or a member of his family. drawn from some particular group and put on a That is the real secret of success of a practising committee they seem to acquire a different sense lawyer. If a lawyer is advising his client what to of responsibility, and regard the committee as a do with his money, he should say, "if this were job to do. Very few people do not respond in such my money, what would I put it into?" It is exactly a way. Invariably, they do not put their old the same with legal advice. He should say. "if this allegiance first, but take a look at the overall was my wife, son, or parent, what advice would I picture. I have great hopes for these committees. give?" A lawyer should not go wrong with that Of course, we will be limited by finance, but we attitude. have been given an assurance from the In regard to the questions raised by the Hon. R. Commonwealth Government that its allocation to F. Claughton, it is true that many people fear the this area will increase. Undoubtedly, the State costs they may incur when they go to lawyers. I will contribute more than it has in the past. We know since I have not been practising I have had will have to make the funds go as far as possible. this fear on one or two occasions when I have I was interested in Mrs Vaughan's comments advised people of the necessity to take some legal about the university legal aid group. Of course, I advice. There is no question that the costs are was aware of the existence of this group. I have very high. The overheads in the business are high; had nothing to do with it personally, but I have thq training costs a lot and their books and other met Mr Tony Wilson. However, I did not know items of equipment are expensive; therefore, the the group merely advised people whether they costs are high. It is a real problem and a real fear needed legal aid. I thought in fact it was felt by many people, and I know it very well. I providing legal aid, and I am grateful for the hope the Legal Aid Commission will be able to information provided by the Hon. Grace overcome this problem. Vaughan, because it is a very important piece of I noted the comments the honourable member information. made on, the question of the means test and the The provision of such preliminary advice is an property qualification. I cannot give him an exact important function. To date, this task has been answer now, but I will have the matter examined carried out by the ALAO and the legal assistance and we will hear more about it on another group from the Law Society. However, in many occasion. I thank members. for their support. 3204 3204[COUNCIL]

Question put and passed. I think football promoters should look carefully Bill read a second time. at this situation, ascertain whether there is some real problem, and find out why so many In Committee, etc. people--more than they realise-are turning Bill passed through Committee without debate, away from the game. reported without amendment, and the report It has been adopted. said that in no way should Parliament be interfering in the sport. However, if Third Reading some players are having their freedom inhibited Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. 1. where else can they go to seek redress? For that G. Medealf (Attorney-General), and passed. reason we should give serious consideration to this Bill, WESTERN AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL I hope members will take note of the FOOTBALL LEAGUE BILL correspondence that many, if not all of them, have Second Reading: Defeated received from country clubs in relation to this matter of supporting the removal of, country Debate resumed from the 25th October. zoning from the National Football League. With THIE HON. W. M. PIESSE (Lower Central) those words I support the Bill. [4.56 p.m.]: Mr President, I am not a footballer The Ken. V. J1.FERRY (South-West) [5.01 but I do have a few words to say in support of this p.m.]: The Bill before the House arises out of a Bill. Although I am not a footballer, I am an desire of Mr Tom McNeil to-assist football and observer of people and the things they do and we should commend him for that. We all have a enjoy to do. For a long time we in Western very high regard and a very dear place in our Australia have regarded Australian rules football hearts for our national game. However, the as our national sport, and those of us who do not matter being raised in this House by way of the play the game very often enjoy watching the proposed legislation disturbs me in that I believe game. However, it is with some concern that I sporting bodies in the main should be the masters have noticed the number of young men in my of their own destiny. country districts taking up football as their Over the years sporting bodies develop a certain primary sport has declined. This would indicate to pattern of administration and control within their me that perhaps there is some aspect of our own fraternity and except for sports such as national game about which people are not quite trotting. horseracing, and dog racing, Parliament happy. is not called upon to adjudicate. However, I would The excuse put forward by one or two people be the first to support legislative action for a need for the declining numbers of young men angling that was clear in my mind, but at the moment this for places in the local football team is the three to me has not been demonstrated clearly enough. Bs-bikes, booze and birds! However, 1 do not I am aware there are a number of people in think that is true because I notice that young men country football circles who are not happy with are entering other sports with the same the present zoning situation. This problem is one enthusiasm with which they used to rush into which should be sorted out within the existing football. The sports which are enjoying increasing football administration. I have been approached participation also are very active sports such as by a number of clubs in this regard, and I have hockey, basketball, golf, and soccer. Members replied to all who have written to me and cannot tell me these sports suddenly have become expressed my belief that in regard to zoning it is popular at the expense of our national game. premature for Parliament to act as an Therefore, the only conclusion one can draw is adjudicator. that people, particularly country clubs, are not It has not yet been amply demonstrated to me very happy about some aspects of our national that the football fraternity itself is not capable of game. salving the problem and I believe it will be solved. The immediate point which comes to mind is I am realistic enough to understand that in all the fact that the freedom of the individual player things, particularly sport, one can never satisfy is limited. As I have studied this Bill, it will in no everyone whether he be a player, administrator, way interfere with the ordinary running of clubs or follower. Decisions must be made bearing in except in regard to country zoning. It may well be mind the consensus of what is best in the that people are not making a protest in any other circumstances. way than a very serious way in that they are no As I said before, I commend the Hon. Tom longer taking up the game. McNeil for his concern in this area. I am sure we [Wednesday, 9th November, 1971] 320530 all have a concern for the welfare of the The comments I have received are quite Australian rules football game and for the people uniform. I will not read them all out, but I will who play and enjoy it in every respect. I would refer to two replies which typify the response I like the football fraternity to come to grips with received, The first is from Mr Colin Matheson, this as they have with every other problem President of the De~rey National Football associated with the game. If it can be amply League, which operates from Port Hedland and demonstrated by a big ground swell of community includes teams from Goldsworthy and Shay Gap. opinion, both country and metropolitan, that there It reads as follows- is need for change which can be affected only by Dear John, the parliamentary process, it will receive my Thank you for the copy of the further consideration. W.A.N.F.L. Bill introduced by the liIon. T. I have considered the matter earnestly and I McNeil. reiterate that at this stage I believe it is Although 1, and most others I have premature for the Parliament to be asked to spoken to do not like the Country Zoning adjudicate in this particular sport. Mention has System, we all agree that it must be the been made of the rights of the individual, which is League that finally abandon the System an important principle, but as individuals we do NOT an Act of Parliament. need to conform to what is the going thing regarding the conduct of a particular sport. The second letter is from the West Pilbara National Football League based at Dampier Many times during my lifetime I have been which includes teams from Karratha, Roebourne, most unhappy when I was dismissed at cricket and Wickham. The honorary secretary, Mr Ray when I thought the umpire had made a wrong Turner, wrote as follows- decision. At times I may have been upset when I was not selected for a team, but later I was Dear John, delighted when I was successful. Of course, these I am in receipt of your letter dated 25 are just small instances. October, .1977, and appreciate the chance to pass on my feelings regarding the proposed There must be a lot of give and take, and it will Bill which is to be put through Parliament. be a very sorry day indeed if it ever comes that Parliament is called upon to set guidelines and Whilst I personally think that the zoning rules for sport. If we as a Parliament accept the rules seem unfair to the individual country Dill before us and agree it is the right thing to do, footballer, I support your view that a every member will be badgered unmercifully sporting body should not be controlled by an every time there is a slight discrepancy or Act of Parliament. difference of opinion with an umpire, an Possibly the W.A.N.F.L. should take a administrator, a player or a spectator. Forever we closer look at their zoning rules. will be amending an Act covering the game of These letters are representative of all I received Australian rules football. and the uniform expression of opinion is that it It is not opportune at this stage to accept this should not be Parliament that corrects any Bill. I have expressed my views this way to those anomalies in existence, and my opinion has thus who have approached me, and I therefore cannot been hardened to the same point of view. It is agree to the Bill. with regret that I oppose the Bill. THE HON. J. C TOZER (North) [5.07 p.mn.]: TH-E HiON. M. MeALEER (Upper West) [5. 10 I appreciate the spirit in which the Bill was P.m.]: I am very sympathetic to the intentions of brought forward. I have an understanding of what the Hon. Tom McNeil to improve the conditions the Hon. Tom McNeil is trying to achieve and I of country football and footballers. It is an have considerable sympathy with what he is important sport and entertainment to young men doing. in country areas, and it is a sport followed by In my province we have a somewhat different young and old-men, women and children. It is situation to that of other country areas in important to all areas of this State and shire Western Australia in that zoning rules do not councils recognise it as a matter of importance as apply. I thought the best way that I could go a means of recreation. about this matter was to obtain the feelings of the I am only a spectator at local games and in self- administrators and players by sending a copy of defence I admit I am a nominal supporter of a the Bill together with Mr McNeil's explanatory metropolitan club, which happens to be notes to each or the leagues and associations Claremont. I have taken some interest in the asking (or their comments. difficulties of players to transfer from one cluib to 3206 3206(COUNCIL) another. They often have difflcultiei in obtaining particular club, after they have been allocated to a clearance and I have always thought it was that club. However, after a short space of time something that should be remedied. All the same, while playing for that club they could sustain I 'was rather surprised when the Hon. Tom serious injuries to their knees or ankles. In some McNeil brought this forward as a matter for cases when they sustain such injuries they are legislation. because I thought that such abuse of finished as league players. the players' rights and freedoms would have to be In many instances such players are not treated very considerable indeed that it cannot be solved well by the club; and that would be the end of the by the WANEL, and has to come before road for them so far as league football was Parliament. concerned. Those people have been bound to their. The Bill seeks to remove the matter of zoning club, and to be discarded like this seems to be of country areas. I received a very enthusiastic very unfair: telegram from the Geraldion league asking me to Unfair treatment of players; like Alec Epis, support the Bill. On the other hand, the other have occurred. This person did not play a single associations in my province, such as North league game in Western Australia: yet he was Midlands and Central Midlands, are either for obliged to stand down from the game for one or zoning or are divided in their opinions on the two years before he could play in the VFL. If matter. The general tenor of their views is that, Alec Epis had not gone to Victoria and remained either they are satisfied with the zoning provtsioil, with the club .in Western the amenities and the facilities which they enjoy Australia to which he was bound, and if subsequently he sustained an under that provision as it stands, or else they are aware that they themselves need tQ make further injury he would be cast aside like the other injured players& After his injuries had been efforts to improve the situation. - attended to he would be of no further use to that It seems to me that with such divisions among club as a player.: the football clubs in my province it would not be wise or possible for me to support a Bill which There have also been instances of players who seeks to abolish zoning. This is especially so as I were bound to clubs, ..but were not given the understand that the clubs in many i nstances opportunity to divelop their skills in a league side. resent this matter being a subject for legislation. There are many potential league players who, if They still hope they can. iron out any differences given the opportunity, could lift themselves out of they have with the Western Australian National the lower rungs into the league side. I am sure Football League by negotiation. Therefore. I am many of themn would excel themselves.. unable to support the Bill. I believe in district football. As one who solidly THE HON. D. W. COOLEY (North-East has supported the premier learn in the Metropolitan) [5.13 p.m.): We all know of Mr WANFL-l refer to West Perth Football Tom McNeil's prowess as a footballer and his fine Club-over a period of many years, I can speak achievements, especially in Victoria. I am sure he about the long list of players in that club whom I knows very well the injustices that are associated admired very greatly. This takes me back to the with some aspects of district football. I do not time between players like the late "Fat" think we could say he has anything else but the McDiarmid, a great ruckman, and Bill Dempsey, very best of intentions in bringing this Dill before recently retired. I could mention other -good Parliament in order to look after the interests of a players for West Perth like Ray Schofield. These large number of people who he knows have players distinguished themselves, not so much suffered a great deal as a consequence of zoning because of their undoubted skills, but because regulations. they were loyal and true mnembers of the club. I When people have experienced -injustices they am sure they would not do anything to harm the tend to do something about it. I think we should West Perth club, and they would not entertain the commend Mr Tom McNeil for at least idea of leaving that club to play for another club. attempting to do something for the people he In recent times we have the example of the two knows so well. I would like to point out however magnificent West Perth players who were that it is not my intention to support the Bill but I awarded the MBE; I refer to Bill Dempsey and admire Mr Tom McNeil for bringing it forward Mel Whinnen. They were players who made because there are many footballers in the league ranks from within their districts. I cannot community who are treated shockingly as a result imagine either Bill Dempsey or Mtl Whinnen of the zoning regulations. wearing a football guernsey other than that of Some of those people become loyal to a. West Perth. [Wednesday, 9th November. 1977]120 3207

rhe Hon. A. A. Lewis: Min d you, occasionally the Hon. D. K. Dans: You will be taken before *we gave them a Western Australian guernsey., the party room and charged with dereliction of The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: That is correct. duty and collusion with the enemy. * Unfortunately there are a number of football The Hion. A. A. LEWIS: That seems to be a players who look to the highest bidder for their Labor Caucus trait. I have not heard this sort of services, and those people set aside club loyalties. thing in our party room.. Some of the suppofters of the club who barrack The Hon. D. K. Dans: That is because y'ou do for these players are mote loyal to the club than not barrack for West Perth! the players themselves. If these players are able to The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: With some regret, I obtain a superior monetary offer they are qui te view of the red willing to leave their club and play f.or another cannot support this Bill. In herrings which the Leader of the House and the club. Leader of the Opposition drew across the trail in If we agree to the passage of this Bill [ feel the. starting off the debate, if one knew nothing about richest club would be the winner in the long run football administration one would be forced to do through the abolition of zoning. Without zoning exactly as they advocated. Those two members we would not have loyal players like "Fat" showed a total lack of knowledge of McDiarmtid, Mel Whinnen. Bill Dempsey, and administration of sport, and a total lack of other famous names I have mentioned. appreciation-of the viewpoint of sportsmen. When The Hon. D. K. Dans: Tell us about Don they got to the stage of saying, that cricket was Marinko. not a professional game, I nearly fell out of my The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: Yes I could, and chair. there was also an old personal friend of mine Sam The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I did not say that. *Tyson. I recall an incident at Leederville Oval The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: The Minister should concerning this famous player. At the final read his speech. quarter West Perth was five points behind the The Hon. D. K. Dana: I attended the Packer other team. He had the ball at the Vincent Street dinner the other evening. I support that concept. end of Leederville Oval. Mrs Tyson who was standing behind the goal shouted, "if you do not. .The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: That is good; cricket kick that goal Sam I will kill you when you get is professional. home." However, lhe did kick it. The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Cricket also is If this legislation is passed we might find rich zoned, similar to football zoning. sponsors supporting tariou$ clubs, and those The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Can the Minister tell sponsors and clubs would have a monopoly of the me whether country cricket clubs are zoned? players. At the present time the wheels turn The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: No. occasionally, because even Subiaco won one premiership in a period of 50 years! I am afraid The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: The Minister should keep his lack of knowledge to himself, and allow that if money comes into league football the situation would deteriorate.- me to discuss a few of the matters embraced by. the Bill before us. In recent times Mr Leeson, Mr I am sure that Mr Tom McNeil has the best Stubbs, and I have been advocating that the interests of football, and particularly of the WANFL should do something about television players, at heart in introducing the Bill. However, coverage of the grand final and the interstate with my love of football I would hate to see the matches. What Mr Tom McNeil has done is to intrusion by Parliament into the administration of get the clubs and the WANFL to come together. the game, particularly without consulting the This is the first time the WANFL has written to League before doing so. If the WANFL and the me, although odd members of various clubs have clubs had indicated they wanted such intrusion, written to me and supported some of the things I we could give serious consideration to the Bill. have proposed. At least by this means we have Without that consultation, and for fear of doing brought about a dialogue, and for that I some damage to the district side of football I have congratulate Mr Tom McNeil. to oppose the Bill. I go along with those who oppose the Bill in THE HON. A.- A. LEWIS (Lower Central) saying that I do not believe any Government [5.22 p.m.]: It gives me great pleasure to agree should interfere with the running of sport. I reject with the comments made by Mr Cooley in respect the argument that has been raised that of certain matters. horTseracing, trotting- and dog racing have The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I am not quite anything to do with the Bill. Members who have sure that I favour this sort of association! made that suggestion do not have any real 3209 3208[COUNCIL] knowledge of the history of those sports in this WANKF should take heed of the expressions of State. opinion in this House that faults in regard to While I congratulate Mr Tom McNeil-and I zoning and controls exist, and they need to be hope he goes on with this battle-I would request rectified. The WANFL should be reminded that the House if the Bill is defeated, as is likely, to there is nothing to prevent this type of Bill being have a few kindly words to say to the introduced again. administrators of football in this State. The I oppose the Bill. administrators should be advised that Mir Tom THE HON. T. KNIGHT (South) (5.30 p.m.): I McNeil is reflecting the feelings in many country respect the argument put forward by the Hon. areas, and of many country footballers. Tom NcNeil in relation to this Bill, and out of It is all very well for our city cousins to sit courtesy to him I am giving the reasons that I back, because their particular team has won a cannot support it. At the same time I believe, as couple of premierships, and say, "We will not do other members have indicated, the Hon. Tom this or that. We will not have this or that player McNeil has probably forgotten more about transferred. We will not allow television coverage football than most of us in this Chamber will ever of the grand final or interstate matches to be know, and that stands him in good stead in the extended to the bush, because we would like the approaches he has made in regard to this supporters of football to come to Perth to view the situation. matches." I am not a league footballer and I have not This Bill should serve as warning to followed football very closely in the last 20 years, administrators and clubs in the metropolitan area but the main reason that I find I will be unable to that country areas will not stand much more of support the Bill is that, like most other members, their dictatorial attitude. The leagues within my I have received letters and phone calls from province are not keen on the Bill, but they are football clubs and football followers in my keen on ensuring that country football leagues electorate and throughout Western Australia receive a fair deal. I believe that is the motivation asking us not to bring politics into sport. I am behind the Bill. inclined to agree with that. However, I was very With those words of warning I do not support interested to hear the arguments the honourable the Bill, although I do support the motive behind member put forward. They were very enlightening Mr Tom McNeil who brought it forward. and have obviously touched -the Western Australian National Football League on a soft THE HON. ft. G. PIKE (North Metropolitan) spot, because this is the first time I have ever been [5.28 I would like to paint out at the outset p.mj:- contacted by the league. that from the remarks of speakers who have participated in the debate it appears that the Bill What the Hon. Tom McNeil has done is to which has been introduced by Mr Tom McNeil make known the situation of footballers and the will be defeated. The honourable member is game of football in this State, and Make it clearly in the situation of losing a battle but obvious to the WAN FL that people are interested winning the war, because as far as I am concerned in what is going on. I believe the WAN FL is also the tangible expressions of opinion in this House well aware of the feelings of country people in indicate that as regards controls and zoning the regard to the refusal to televise the final round of WAN FL is at fault. But the suggestion is then football which we have all followed very closely made that that fault is not great enough for the over the years. introduction of a Bill. which seeks virtually to' I cannot support the Bill but I wanted the Hon. control football. Tom McNeil to know we appreciate what he is I say this clearly and categorically of the attempting to do. He has stirred up the possum, WANEL that if it does not take cognisance of the as the saying goes, and perhaps we will in the *anomalies and the wrongs that exist at the present future bring about some action which will be time, then for my part I say to the sponsor of the beneficial to football in Western Australia. Bill that he should consider reintroducing a THE HON. 1. 0. PRATT (Lower West) [5.32 similar measure if after the lapse of a suitable p.m.]: If sympathy were money, I am sure the period, the WAN FL has not taken action to Hon. Tom McNeil today would be a very rich rectify the problem. man because he has received plenty of it. I speak as a member of a country football At the outset I say I cannot support the Bill, association for many years, and now as a city although I have sympathy with what the member who supports the best league honaurable member is trying to do-niot team--Subiaco. That is enough said. The specifically in relation to football but in the wider [Wednesday, 9th November, t977J)20 3209 field of sport, generally. In his second reading sport-we have the same problem with the speech he commented on the general attitude of football leagues in Australia, with the imposition league clubs to young men playing football. I of the will of the people who govern the sport think there is a parallel which runs over into other being such that It represses the right of the sports such as cricket and tennis. We find there is individual person. I am not saying I would in any a tendency among the managing bodies at the-top way like to destroy the National Football League. level of sport to consider they own the players. Mr Pike mentioned the club of which 1 am a very body and soul. keen supporter. But when I see what happens to The issue the Hon. Tom McNeil raises in this individual players it wrings my heart. Bill centres on one section-the country I have seen the same thing happen to young section-but I think this attitude is exhibited in boys in my football club when they tried to follow other ways. It is unfortunate the honourable their chosen avenue. Some had gone to league member has brought the Bill to the House so soon clubs and later tried to get back into their own after his election to Parliament, when perhaps he club but they found obstacles put in their way. is unable to judge what is and is not likely to be Senior players who had finished their useful life accepted by the House. I think more time here had difficulty getting back into clubs where they might have found him with a slightly different could play out their twilight years, because approach It is the narrowness of the approach clearance fees were asked from lower-weighted which leads me to decide I cannot support the clubs as a means of getting some dollars back. Bill. Years ago local clubs received nothing for I do not agree that the problem is an internal promising young players. The 'attitude of one and the sport itself will resolve it. I do not administrators in treating the player as a piece of think it will resolve it; I think it is a problem merchandise is the foundation for the sympathy I which will stay with us. A few years ago I was have for the Honi. Tom McNeil and his Bill. involved in football administration, and in the Perhaps the time will come when we, as country clubs we had the same problem. Time has legislators, will have to look at the rights of the not solved the problem and I do not think it will. people who play sport. We have only to look at the way other sports The Hon. D. K. Dani: It will resolve itself in have torn themselves apart. When professionalism two years. We will no longer be selling players first became recognised in tennis, the people in like cattle. control of the sport decided they could exercise The Hon. 1.G. PRATT: We may find ourselves their will completely and absolutely over the looking at the rights of people who play sport players, whom they considered to be their rather than legislating for sport. I do not agree property. Their attitude ripped international there is something sacred about sport so that we tennis apart. cannot have laws about it. I do not agree that to The Hon. D. K. Dans: There are now 45 pass a law which has art effect on sport is to bring million people playing tennis in America, whereas politics into sport; it is to bring the law of the land previously there were only four million. into the confines in which that sport operates. I do The Hon. 1. G. PRATT: I was about to say it not find that repugnant any more than I find it has taken since that time to re-establish the sport repugnant to pass any of the legislation that is and sort things out, accepting that professional brought here. sportsmen have a life of their own to lead and the Again I say I am unhappy that I cannot right to lead it. We now find the same thing on support the Bill, although I support the principle. the international cricket scene. Had they looked If it were on a much wider level perhaps I could at what happened to tennis and realised they were support it, but I realise than to formulate individual sportsmen rather than sportsmen who legislation on a wider level would be very difficult. were the property of the organisation, we would 1 do not have the answer but I understand the not have the problem we have now. We had the problem. situation where the best players in the country THE HON. W. R. WITHERS (North) 15.39 could not represent the country. In cricket, the pm]: I had not intended to speak to this Bill but best players cannot represent t'he State or the I listened to so many members giving their country and are even prevented from representing reasons for not supporting it that I thought I their own district when they do not agree to toe would stand up and give mine. Mine do not seem the line with the administrators of the sport. to be the same as everyone else's, because I lose To a lesser degree-because Australian rules interest in a sport when I cannot play it. football is of lesser significance in international As the last speaker said, the Bill is not broad 3210 3210COUNCIL] enough; but my main objection is to legislation on he had intold problems in trying to get where he any sport played by people. I am not referring to wanted to go, and from memory he stood out of racing sports in which betting takes place; I football for two years in his 18th 'and 19th years, believe legislative control is necessary in that type which were probably among the best years he of sport., could have devoted to the game. Then he went to In my opinion, we have too much legislation on Victoria and played 200 games with Essendon, moicst things, buttI am worried about an attempt to representing that State on a number of occasions. legislate for sporting organisations where men Over the years many footballers have come band together to play a sport and establish their down from Kalgoorlie to play in the league ranks, own rules. If we were to do that with football we and in those days they were prepared to come would have to start looking at soccer and down just for the privilege of putting their boots everything else. on and playing with one of the metropolitan I only wish we could withdraw some of the laws teams. To play with the WANFL was enough. that have gone into the -Statute book, because Today a lot of money has come into the game and Parliaments and bureaucracy are strangling all sorts of changes have taken place. people. Day by day the strangulation is becoming I understand that at present if a player comes greater. in business and private life people are from a country area to the metropolitan area he is being strangled by legislation, and I do not want entitled to $300 as a cash payment for signing to increase it. Therefore I will vote against 'the with the club that covers the zone from which he Bill. comes. 1 have heard that the league has decided .THE HON, R. T. LEESON (South-East) [5.41 to increase that payment to $500, and the decision p.m.]: I intend to support the Bill, and in doing so was made. only in the last week or so. Perhaps I want to make a couple of comments. somhething in the Hon. Tom McNeil's Bill had something to do with this. I think the league has The Goldfields National Football League has become conscious been strongly opposed to zoning since its of the need to try to increase payments to country areas as a result of the* inception, and it held many long meetings discussing the situation when zoning was criticism that has been levelled at it. introduced. 'The GNFL is one of -the oldest When zoning was first introduced I understand leagues'in Western Australia and many years ago the idea was that eight balls went into a barrel it played its premiership sides against and they were drawn out; and in that way the metropolitan premiership sides. I might say the clubs .were allocated eight different areas of the games were not all one-sided. On occasions the State. Possibly the reason that the Goldfields goldfields won and on occasions the metropolitan National Football League does not support zoning team won the championship of the State. is that it has drawn the'Subiaco 'club which has not seen fit to throw much money around in We can go back to about 1906, when probably country areas. I know the same situation has our first champion player from the goldfields affected some other areas. came to the metropolitan area to play football. I refer to Nipper Truscoit. Since then a large * Some of the towns that have drawn clubs such number of champion footballers have come .to as East Perth. Perth, or the Fremantle clubs are Perth to play and have gone on to Victoria, and in probably not so concerned about the matter. some cases they have gone straight from the However, I understand that at the time goldfields to Victoria. consideration was given to- putting 'the marbles back in the barrel after a period and holding I must say at this stage that unfortunately the another draw to shift the areas around. I think standard of' football seems to have declined in the there might be a lot of sense in that. goldfields in recent years. I1 clearly remember some of the wrangles that took Place, particularly The H~on. J. C. Tozer: You might do worse and when a fellow I went to school with-Alec get Swan Districts. Epis-wanted to go to Victoria to play football. The Hon. R. T. LEESON: We could not do He played in the junior ranks on the goldfields much worse. and graduated to the senior ranks at the age of I think the argument against having a redraw is only 17. H9 played in league football in the that clubs which have spent money in country goldfields for one year and won the fairest and areas and have done a lot of work to brild up best award. He then wanted to move directly to their areas would lose all that money and work to Victoria because his potential was such that that another club. Perhaps the league could come up was where he thought he should be playing, and with another formula and make some alterations in those days that was where the money was. But which would satisfy more people than are satisfied [Wednesday, 9th November, 197131 3211

* at the moment. It is obvious- that unfortunately with the sympathy expressed by members of this this Dill will be defeated. Chiamber-because it looks as though that is all It is also obvious from comments made this they will get. afternoon by country members that although they I will deal first with Mr Leeson's remarks since oppose the Dill they support what the Hon. Tom he is one of the those who see fit to support the * McNeil is trying to do. The argument used is.- of Bill. I would like to straighten out one point be coukrse:' that we should not bring, politics into mentioned in respect of zoning. When zoning was sport. However, as the Hon. Bill Withers just first introduced in the late part of 1971 it was mentioned we alredy have far -too much suggested that after two years the league would legislation. There is far more legislation than I have another look at the matter. It is quite like to see in many areas. While the Parliament is obvious that clubs such as East Fremantle which in session we have Bills coming to this 1-ouse has the Geraldton area, and Perth which has the every day to which all members on the zone in the Northam area, would be most Government side agree wholeheartedly, no matter reluctant to change if they have put a lot into what the legislation. Yet the minute we have a their areas; whereas clubs that have not been Dill which affects football players they get on having a great deal of success would be pestering their high horse and will not support it. I cannot for a change. understand that attitude. The Hon. Bill Withers referred to soccer, and I think I think what the Hon. Tonm McNeii is trying to this is as good a time as any to present the, do is good for the sport because at the moment a situation in regard to the football world, player may come from a country area, obtain his generally. Last night we passed a Bill to amend $300 by joining a metropolitan club, and turn out the 'Workers' Compensation Act. Whilst the to be a champion within 12 months; then that Government has been exhorted not to interfere club can sell him for $10 000. But. where does with sport, it did not take long for the Western that leave the player? Australian National Football League to get on its* bike and make representations to Cabinet to -.- It seems to me football is becoming a big money business. I do not think that is wrong, conside the situation as to whether a player is because we have only to look at what has entitled to compensation if he is hurt while playing happened.in respect of cricket in rcnt times. Let football.* * me. point o*ut that I agree with the. Packer . Let us look at both sides of the picture. I have situation.. letters here-as probably other members have-from the East Fremantle club and the As I said the Goldfields iarlier, National WANEL asking that the sport be left alone. * Football Leaguesupports this Bill and opposes * zoning. The Hon. G. C. Maci~innon: Are you sure it was the WANEL that made that approach? THE HON. R. F. CLAUGHTON (North IThe Hon. TOM McNEIL: I will provide that Metropolitan) [5.50 p.m.]: 1. rise to oppose the information to the Leader of the House. I have legislation. I have spoken to the management of my papers in chronological order, and he will several clubs that have an interest in my have to bear with me until I find it. It was the electorate; they say that they are most strongly WANEL that made the approach, and it was opposed to the proposal and that it would not be supposedly made on behalf of all sports. However, of benefit to the sport. as I said previously, it was a torigue-in-cheek I have received correspondence which I am sure effort at that time; and I have seen nothing since *. has been circulated to all members, setting out the to make me withdraw that remark. reasons for opposing the Bill. I do not intend to *Football is a body contact sport; therefore, any traverse the ground that has already been covered injurioes involved would be incurred while actually by other-members. However, I felt it necessary to [playing rugby, soccer, or Australian rules rise to my feet and convey in brief the views football. presented to me by the clubs within my electorate. Let me commence by dealing with soccer. THE HON. TOM McNEIL. (Upper West) Anyone who has any doubts about the -(5.51 p.m.]: I think I know now what it is like to administrative ability of the people who organise pick up the football in the back pocket and see 18 soccer in this State, and perhaps throughout footballers charging at me with five seconds left Australia, should approach the Hon. John to play in the grand final and my team i s kicking Williams who will quickly point out that this * into the wind. Let me say from the outset that sport has a great deal of substance in respect of probably footballers generally will be most taken the rights of individual footballers. A soccer 3212 3212[COUNCIL] player has a contract extending from one to a me point out that last night we passed the maximum of five years; however, a one-year Workers' Compensation Act Amendment Bill contract is preferred. Everything is signed and which provides that a footbal1ler is not entitled to sealed, and Mr Williams could inform members compensation if he is hurt whilst training or on this better than I could. I have seen the playing. On the other hand, a country footballer contracts and they are comprehensive. If only one who comes to Perth must play for the club which alteration is required, a new contract is drawn up. controls the area from which he comes and he is The contract sue out that the player is entitled to tied to that club for two years. If he does not want a certain amount of money, and it contains to play for that club he has to move out of the certain safeguards-far more than is the case in area and live somewhere else. After two years he respect of Australian rules players. is free to join the club in whose area he then lives. The Hon. W. R. Withers: There is no If a person is an amateur footballer who has no legislation in respect of soccer. involvement with a country league he may wish to The H-on. TOM McNEIL: 1 agree, but perhaps go to Victoria to play as an amateur. Let us take that is because the administrators have got the the case of Simon Beazley who lives in game straightened out and have adopted a Bassendean and has no involvement with the common-sense, humane' attitude so that Swan Districts club. He can go to Victoria and Government legislation is not necessary. Soccer play amateur football there; but as soon as he players do have freedom. attempts to obtain a clearance to a VEL club, that However, try to explain that freedom to a boy clearance application goes to the Swan Districts who lives in the bush and who decides he wants to club, which could demand a transfer fee of, say, move to Perth and finds he is tied for two years $50 000, even though he has had no involvement to, say. East Fremantle. If he does not show his with that club. That sort of thing does not apply attributes at, say, 14 years of age he is still tied to in the soccer or the rugby world. that club until he is 16, and then perhaps he can Let us consider the case of the two rugby move to another area and be free to play for league players who were successful in their cases another club, depending on whether the zoned for workers' compensation. One had a partial club will clear him. disability, with 20 per cent loss of the use of his I introduced this Bill to establish the rights of right leg, and the other bccame a quadriplegic. In the individual Australian rules footballer. those cases they had some redress through the Members have risen and told me, perhaps Workers' Compensation Act, but if members have knowing that I have been involved with VFL and seen the contracts which had been drawn up they country football, that I know something about the would know that the player who suffered this matter. Perhaps I do, but that is not why I disability of the right leg-Wayne Peckham-was introduced the Bill. The reason I introduced it is receiving through his contract every year $1 250 that I have been approached in country areas by from the 1st March, a further SI1250 in football players who feel they should be entitled December, $150 for a win, $20 for a loss, and $40 to some freedom. if he was unable to play football through sickness Such freedom is available to the players in any or ill-health; and that was in 1970. other sport, apart from Minor restrictions in Eventually I shall come to East Fremantle's respect of residential zones and playing for protracted evasion of the truth and the assertions another club within a certain period after moving by that club that I was telling half truths and out of an area. However, no ther sport has omitting important facts;, and I shall go through it anything like the three years of penal servitude item by item. I shall show members very clearly, that can apply in the case of a person who wants if they can believe I am an honest person, that to play Australian rules football. everything in the Bill and every contention I made It is very clear that in no way does the Bill in the second reading speech are absolutely true. interfere with the rights or the administrative I defy anybody to agree with the situation functions of the WAN FL as it is now constituted. oullined in the screed sent to members of It simply seeks to remove the unreasonable Parliament by the President of the East restrictions now imposed upon a player in respect Fremnantle Football Club, Menv Cowan. I shall of residential zoning, and to establish for players not deal with that )et, because if I am to be on a the right to play with the club of their choice and defeated team I intend to go down with all sails to negotiate their own contracts. flying and I intend to take members through the When we speak about contracts-and ;feel situation which ubtains for Australian rules this is a most opportune time to mention it-let football players in Th~is country. [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 321321

The H-on. F. E. McKenzie: What I cannot eligible in the absence of a clearance to play understand is that if you say the players are for any other club until he shall have resided supporting you, why are not the clubs supporting outside the district of the club to which he is you, because are 'not the clubs the players? bound for a period of 24 months. The Hon. TOM McNEIL: The situation is that This is the rule I was talking about. all members have been approached by the East Sitting suspended from 6.05 to 7.30 p.m. Fremantle Football Club and the Western The Hon. TOM McNEIL: Prior to the tea Australian National Football League. The suspension I was slightly sidetracked and I did Western Australian National Football League intend to answer the Hon. Fred McKenzie who sent out a screed pointing out to everyone that he has requested Some information on club-player should be very careful before passing any relationships. The particular club that a player legislation about football. I picked out one may play for, whether it be in the country or in paragraph which says that the implication is that the league,' usually does not permit the player to the game is to be controlled by Government have any say in the running of the committee of Statute. the club. I realise in some country clubs the I pointed out that the alterations I proposed to players do go onto the committee, but it is a little make to the WA$JFL constitution would be unusual and, therefore, the administrative side of limited and would in no way take over the control the club is generally run by people who are not of property rights by the league. All they are playing the game. intended to do is to give to the country player and When I was speaking about the rules I hoped to to the metropolitan player who is not happy-and alter, I moved from rule 76 which sentenced the who may be living in Subiaco territory but player to 24 months' servitude and having to live wanting to play with Claremont-ihe right to outside the district in which he normally resided, move out of that area and to wait for 30 days, not and I intended to make that a 30-day stay and not two years. to get his right to play for Claremont. 24 months. Rule 83, which is the third rule which That would also mean that a country player had to be altered, reads as follows- leaving the country to come to Perth would not If any person shall have have to stay two years out played with the of football if he did not district club for like the club he was zoned to. the district in which he has been residing and he then removes to a place At the moment if a player goes interstate and outside all the districts defined under these wants to play in the VFL he cannot play rules, including the Eastern States, such competitive football for 24 months. He must come person shall be eligible to play only with the back to this State and appeal, and his appeal will club with which he has already played, and be heard in Perth by a tribunal consisting of shall not be eligible to play with any other representatives of the VFL, the SANFL, and the district club until such time as he has WANFL; that is where he will receive his football obtained a clearance from his former club justice. Those leagues will decide whether the and a permit from the permit committee. appeal is to be agreed to, and if it is not agreed to (The refusal of a clearance by his former then the player must spend another 12 months out Club shall be final.) of football in Victoria and then come back and In my wisdom, I did not consider this was fair appeal again. That is the sort of football justice play and the mere fact that one requested a we have decided not to interfere with. clearance and the club said "No" and one had to In my Bill I seek to alter five very minor points accept that as being final was a complete dealing with the restrictions placed on the rights injustice. of a football player. Before members decide that Rule 84 is similar to rule 83. It reads as they are not going to support this Bill they should follows- at least listen to the alterations and the effect it is intended they should have on the whole football If any person not residing in any of the situation. districts defined under these rules shall have played with a district club as provided in rule The first rule I intend to alter is rule 71, and 79 and then whilst Still residing outside of the this has to be done because if we decide to get rid said districts shall desire to transfer from the of country zoning we have to pull out the rule district club with which he has been playing which states that if a player is in a particular and to play with another district club, he country zone he has to play with a particular club. may apply for and be granted a permit to do The second rule is rule 78 which reads in part- so by the permit committee subject to a A person residentially bound shall not be clearance being granted to such person by his 3214. 314.[COUNCIL)

former club. (The refusal of a clearance by Glendinning, Cable, and Farmer and some of the his former Club shall be final.) others, they certainly had to follow a very round- The same sentence is contained in that rule. Once about way to get a clearance, and money or flesh again, it reiterates the fact that if one appealed was traded so they could be free to play where against a decision by th 'e club, after having been they wished. away for two years, one could not possibly be held Returning to the Bill, the final rule which to accept that because the club had made that needed to be changed in order to bring some sense decision it should be final. into these transfer and zoning laws enitailed the The last rule which needed to be changed, and removal of the entire second schedule to the still needs to be changed and always will until country zoning league. In other words, we sdme sanity penetrates to the Western Australian removed the eight zoned districts, as was National Football League administrative explained by the I-on. R. T. Leeson, and said that committee, concerns the interstate clearance. The there would be no more zoning. What a terrible rule reads as follows- thing to do to the Western Australian National An interstate clearance shall not be Football League-to interfere with its closed shop granted unless the person applying for the situation. same satisfies the committee This would remove the iniquitous situation (1) that the application is approved by every whereby a club is able to say to a boy in the Club which is a member of the League. country, "Because you live in that area you shall By that it means the Western Australian National play football with us," and the mere fact that the Football League. It continues- lad does not know the club and has never been (2) That the application is approved by the inside its gates makes no difference. If one does club with which the applicant is registered not comply one could be kept out of football for and that he up to three years. (a) Is aged (23) years or more '(and has We have heard members of Parliament played in 120 premiership matches). standing up in this Chamber tonight and stating I do not think one needs to be a Rhodes scholar to that we should not interfere with football. I will work that one out. In fact, I took it upon myself go along with that, provided the rules come to go through the league club players' list this somewhere within the bounds of decency and "a year and out of a total of 308 league players who fair go". I believe that is an old Australian saying. played league football in 1977 for the eight clubs If one wants to play rugby one can obtain a which constitute the WANFL, there are 19 contract; if one wants to play soccer one can get a players who are eligible, being 23 years of age and contract; but if one wants to play Australian rules having played 120 premiership matches. They are one is not able to do so. A person who wants to the only ones who would be able to approach the play Australian rules football is told, "You will club and say, "I think it is time I moved on," and have to play with that club. We will call the tune. have any hope of being listened to. For the We will tell you where you can go." He is told interest of those peo ple who may follow some of also, "it does not matter if you tell me who you these clubs, I will name the players. They are: barrack for, 1 am speaking for a Western Perth-Day and Quartermnaine; East Australian league football club and I am in Fremantle-Green and Hollins; West control of your future." All we are looking for Perth-Smeath, Sheridan and Watling; East with this Bill isjustice. Perth-Smith and Verstegin; South I would like to speak about this piece of paper Fremantle-Carson, Haddow and Morley; that, as far as I know, was sent to all members of Stibiaco-Keal and Cunningham; Parliament. It Clarmont-Bridgewood and Elphick; Swan went to great lengths to cover what Districts-Gillespie, Mullooly, arid Nowotny. I had supposedly said regarding zoning and the football Bill I intended to introduce. I have taken Whether Or not one follows one of those clubs, it apart piece by piec; but if any members feel I being some type of a judge of a prospective VFL have skipped over something and want an answer player, aspiring to VFL ranks, one would not find to it I shall be only too happy to cover any points more than four players in that group who could they may rakse. possibly interest a VFL scout. A player, having served his official servitude in the club he joined In the first place, the President of the East in the early days, would obviously want to move Fremantle Football Club states- to another club in the twilight of his career. This There are many statements made by Mr does not always happen. In the case of McNeil when introducing the Bill that are [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 321521

incorrect and misleading and important facts democratic right that applies to the Western have been omitted. Australian National Football League applying If anyone reels I am omitting something or have also to the individual. Mr Cowan goes on to say- glossed over something, please do not hesitate to The conditions of players under the preseot interject. I know the Hon. Norman Baxter has system of zoning as outlined by Mr McNeil endeavoured to cover this document to some are inaccurate. He makes no mention of the extent but I believe the only person who can fact that country clubs also receive $10 a defend me is myself. On three different occasions game in this letter Mr Cowan states as follows- I shall now re-read part of moy second reading The rules of the W.A. National Football speech to illustrate the point- League only apply to players who wish to Under the present system of zoning, play in the W.A. National Football League. metropolitan league clubs can dictate to The rules of the WAN FL cover only players country clubs whether, when, or where a * who desire to play league, reserves or colts. clearance will be granted. A metropolitan What a lot of poppycock. If members do not league club can play a man for six games believe me, they should slip out to some of these without a clearance from a country club, other associations mentioned in the paper and try after which time a country club must grant a to play without a clearance or a permit and see clearance in return for which it receives how far they get. That takes care of those three $300. Havins obtained the services of a statements. player for this ridiculously small fee, the The president goes on to say- metropolitan league club has complete Western Australian National Football control over the player's future. League only covers people below the 26th On page 229 of Hansard. a copy of which was parallel. sent to the Western Australian National Football That is true; but the same thing applies if one League so there could be no possible chance of comes down to Perth to play in the city area. One the league misunderstanding what I was speaking still needs a permit. That permit may be withheld about, the following appears- if the WAN FL does not want to issue it. The next The conscience of the WAN FL~mu st have answer is a ministerial one, if I may be permitted received anothtr jolt because the amount of to say so. It is a ministerial answer because it $300 was increased by $10 for -every league says, "(3) answers (i)". That is the type of game played after the first 20 games. That answer we usually get from a Minister when he is was very big-hearted! I think every member trying to answer speedily. The president states would realise that it costs more than $300 to also- replace a player. The position seems to be Has not an organisational body the right to that it is open season on country clubs, and form an association or make its own rules? sums of money in excess of $300 are spent in trying There is no argument about that and I believe in to convince a player he should -play the right of the Western Australian Football with a particular club. League to say, "There are our eight clubs.. If you I would like to mention at this stage that whoever want to play for one come along." That is fine, issued this document which came from the East because everyone plays under those conditions Fremantle Football Club obviously was not aware and is free to join the club of his choice as long as of the situation. A blank has been left where Mr he abides by the rules. Once again, because a man Cowan did not know the rules. I knew the rule lives 300 miles in the bush, in Subiaco or in related to 20 games being played but the person Bassendean, he should not be beholden to a club who initially issued this obviously did not know, he does not know, bearing in mind the possibility as members can see. I put a question mark in the that he will have to stay out of football for up to blank space and although the "20" may appear two to three years if he wishes to play league later in some of the copies held by members, it did football but does not play for that club to which not appear in my copy. Mr Cowan obviously felt he is zoned. he should go back, check the rules, and make sure The president said also- of his facts before this document was printed. The Western Australian National Football Then he goes on to say- League has a democratic right to make its He makes no mention of finance and own rules. development injected into the country. Nobody argues about this. I argue about the If it appears I am a little riled about this article 3216 3216[COUNCIL] from East Fremantle, it is because I have had to Governments, irrespective of what political live with it for about four or five weeks knowing party to back up their policies of that it was circulating in Parliament and decentralisation and bring to country people undermining my credibility. There was no way I everywhere, not only Australian Rules could answer it then. As I said, Mr Cowan football, but all types of sport and stated- entertainment by providing the technical He makes no mention of finance and facilities to allow this to happen and at the development injected into the country. same time not interfere with attendances and Let us consider what East Fremantle has injected the financial return of organisations running into the country, particularly into the Geraldton the event or entertainment. area. I have a letter from the East Fremantle That was the situation as it applied to the Football Club, dated the 6th July, 1977. 1 could televising of the grand final to country areas. It is read it fully, but will not bore members. However, all right for the WA National Football League to members can believe me when I say it is an say, "Don't interfere with our sport", but when answer to an appeal from a Northampton convent the time comes and they want assistance, they asking for an old ball to kick around at playtime. turn to Parliament, or turn the people against The answer was- Parliament, because supposedly we are not doing With reference to your letter of the 24th the right thing. June, 1977 regarding the donation of a Mr Cowan goes on to say that over $10 000 football for your School, we regret to advise was spent on the four players front the country that due to our commitments with all of our area who played in the grand final. He refers to Junior Clubs, we are unable to assist you in accommodation, travel, employment, and playing. this instance. I know three of those players and probably Jim Our Club does conduct an annual Sewell would have to be the best paid of the four. Coaching Clinkc in the Geraldton area and I can assure members that there would be no way we would be pleased to include your School in the world that those four players would receive in this Clinic next year. If your are interested a total of $10 000. The sum of over $ 10 000 is a you could contact the Great Northern nice round figure. If' the sum involved were National Football League before the next $10 700, he would say $10 700. I think that this Clinic, which will be held in May of next has been the case with the over $10 000. It is year. probably close to $10 000 but how close? As East All that the nuns at the convent at Northampton Fremantle played in the NFL competition this had to do was bundle all the children into a bus year, accommodation, plane fares, and the -and take them 42 miles to the football ground, expenses of taking the team to Adelaide could leave them for the afternoon, and then bundle well be part of the deal, because he does refer to them all back into the bus to return them to accommodation, travel, employment, and playing. Northampton. That is what is called injecting It is a bit vague, but apparently I am the only enthusiasm, finance, and development into the person who is vague and misleading, so I will give country area. him the benefit of the doubt as he is not here to I need not say that the letter I am now holding defend himself. He says- in my hand is from the Great Northern Football We have had no request in the past for any Club donating the ball used in the seconds grand player who has played with our club under final this year, to the convent. I might also point zoning to transfer to any other league club in out at this stage that although Geraldton is zoned Western Australia. Nor have we been to the EFFC we have not, in the six years we have approached by players from other Clubs to been zoned to that club, had an East Fremantle join our club because they were dissatisfied coach in the Great Northern NFL, Central with the treatment they received. Midlands NFL, or Northern Midlands NFL What about Gary Gibellini to Perth and Stuart competitions. Magee from Swans? Earlier in the night it was stated that the EFFC He makes no mention of the attitude of country had asked that we do not interfere with its sport players to zoning. I do not know. I can only and game. That was stated by Mr Cowan also. assume that if we had the choice of shopping at The following was also said by Mr Cowan during eight shops or only one shop, I amt sure we would the finals TV controversy- all prefer to deal with eight shops. We are It is my view that there exists a clear reasonably intelligent people. If a footballer had responsibility on the part of our the choice of eight clubs or had only one he could [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 321731 join, I am sure he would rather have eight from Fremantle spent $2000 to promote country which to choose. football, it was more than amply rewarded in the Now we come to the piece de resistanice It will three players it gained from the game. be remembered that in 1975 East Fremantle Let us not forget, either, that Geelong was on played Geelong in Geraldton. Mr Cowan goes on an end of season trip, and if the team had not to say- been staying at Geraldton it would have stayed at It cost East Fremantle over $2 000 to play East Fremantle, so what the heck? Geelong in an end of season game in Mr Cowan then touches on a matter which is Geraldton- very near and dear to me; that is, the right of a Listen to this- player to get a clearance through league channels. -- to promote country football. He says I was inaccurate. He stated- I gave up the secretaryship of the GNNFL prior The statement made by Mr McNeil is to this season. However, I was still coaching the inaccurate and the case he mentioned was in Great Northern side which competed and. relation to particular cases dealing with incidentally, won the 1975 country championship. Eastern States Clubs and was not followed I do know that when Geelong Played East through and passed as a Constitutional Fremantle, the decision to use Geraldton was only change. The Courts are open to all players. a second thought, and this was because the East If members believe that, they will believe Fremantle council refused EFFC permission for anything. Certainly the courts are open and the game to be played on its Fremantle oval. certainly the courts will pass judgments, and in The implication is that Geraldton has benefited every instance they will pass judgment in favour by the magnificent decision by East Fremnantle of the player because they recognise that the and Geelong to play at Geraldton. They gloss over player has a human right. In the case of Mr the fact that Geelong could have been attracted to Cowan's statement. I was talking about Stan play anywhere to please East Fremantle because Magro of the South Fremantle Football Club. of a player named Brian Peak. He could have, In my second reading speech I said- been in their minds. We also know that as a result At present the only recourse open to a of that game East Fremantle gained three players, player refused a clearance is for him to take and incidentally I had to keep 10 Geraldton civil action through the courts, or stand out footballers in training to fit into the East of football for at least a year-as, for Fremantle side that was to play Geelong. Out of example, did Syd Jackson, Alec Epis, and this game they won a player called Steve Wayne Richardson, to name only a few. McCann, and much has been said about him. He These players were not mentioned in that article played for the supposedly best ever side seen in from East Fremantle. We can only the VFL, and was among the 20 players assume that it in the was decided to gloss over them. I went on to North Melbourne side which won this year's say- premiership. Geraldton did not recieve any money for McCann but he was in a show window that The Western Australian National Football day as a prospective player, and we can assume League has even attempted to remove the somewhere along the line he went to North right of a player to go through legal Melbourne as part of the deal for Ryan and channels. A few weeks ago the league moved Feltham and got his clearance for which St. to alter its constitution so that any player Patrick's College Geraldton obtained nothing, and who went outside the league to secure a neither did the Great Northern NFL. clearance would be banned from playing football within this State for seven years. Another player I kept in training--and this is Five of the eight league directors supported another titbit-was Geoff Ironmonger but this added restriction. because of East Fremantle's poor administration they missed him and he went to Subiato. It was I Mr Cowan says- who actually told John Todd to concentrate on The statement made by Mr McNeil is Jim Sewell because he was a good player, but he inaccurate and the case he mentioned was in had not shown up much that year. Eventually his relation to particular cases dealing with worth was recognised and he has now signed an Eastern States Clubs and was not followed $80 000 contract with Carlton. through and passed as a constitutional The third player East Fremantle got from that change. The courts are open to all players. game which cost it $2 000 was John Sims. I With the case of the courts being open to all mention those three in passing because if East players, let us have a look at the situation. To 3218 3218[COUNCIL) simplify matters I will refer members to page 230 for a 20-year bond on the player, not a seven-year of Hansard because that contains a report of what bond. The South Fremantle President said that I said previously. The situation has developed in his move was designed to make players think which, during the past IS months, four players twice -before going to outside channels for a had taken out Supreme Court writs against their clearance. Mr Hart, the President of theSFFC own clubs. Stan Magro had taken out a writ said- against the South Fremantle Football Club. With the proposed rule in operation, a As I said, four players had taken out writs and player would have to weigh up carefully his I referred to Stan Magro in this State. I assured prospects of succeeding in his new members generally that there was no possible competition. chance of that case going to court. At Page 230 1 said- He felt he would have to face the fact that he would not be able to play in Western The same has happened in Victoria where Atistralian football for a long while. there is no possible chance of a case in that State appearing before the court. If any That was subsequently changed from 10 years to member in this House is a gambler I would seven years, and it was subsequently defeated like to give him five to one that Morris of the because it received only five votes out of eight VFL Richmond Club will ge~t his clearance. when put before the directors of the WANEL. The point I am bringing up is that this So much for closing the door and saying justice practice is a restraint on players. The VFL, had been done for Australian rules football. I am the WANFL, and the South Australian glad the Hon. John Williams is not here to hear National Football League all realise that this the way we run our football in camparison with restraint is a very real thing, and that the the way soccer is run. first time a case goes to court the player I now go on to the case of the young player I concerned will win, and the whole sham will mentioned a short time ago. The case of Peter be over. Hall versus the VFL club, Collingwood, was won This is where I made my first mistake. The w hole by Hall yet the player was subsequently lost to sham is not over. The player won, but was stil the game. So it does not look as though anyone is beaten. I would point out that a player-Peter interested in him. Another case concerns Tutty Hall- who took the Collingwood club and the versus Buckley and the NSWRL. I will not go VFL to court and won will probably never play right through this case because I think members league football. Why is this? The reason is that probably realise by now that the rights of the the same situation applied there as applies in this players are being ignored. In every case before the State. When one court case is lost the VEL or courts the player has won. We as a Parliament WAN FL ranks are closed to ensure that the next are not just trying to interest ourselves in sport; game is won. we are trying to see that these players get a fair An old opponent of mine, Jack Hamilton, the and decent go. greatest manager of the VFL, said that that will It has been said that members should sit back not be the end of zoning. So what did they do? and let the league look after the problem. This They slammed a $100 000 fine on any club which case has been delayed because I have been talks to Peter Hall and if ever he appears in any waiting. However, the Minister for Recreation league game against Collingwood, they lose four and I have heard the WANFL say they are not premiership points. Who is for a game of Aussie interested. The league has zoning, and it will not rules football? move. Where will the country players and the In the case of Magro, on the 5th May, 1977, A metropolitan players go from here. They will get Federal Court judge ordered the South Fremantle justice in the courts but can still lose by being Football club and the WAN FL to show cause forced out of football. why Magro should not be cleared. The application In the case of Peter Hall, the court told him was lodged under the Trade Practices Act. On the that if he did not get justice to come back to the '10th May the WANEL and the SFFC lodged an court. However, Collingwood said he would play application for an order prohibiting further with them, or not play at all, and he is now proceedings under the Trade Practices Act. On probably kicking the pickets as there was no the 12th May Magro's clearance was sent by compulsion for Collingwood to select Hall in their charter aircraft to Melbourne and there was a team, and South Melbourne did not dare. cash deal and a bond put up by Collingwood. In another two cases there was reference to the Initially the South Fremantle President asked restraint of trade, and in each case the court [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 321931 found in favour of the players. Some of the subjected, in fact, to an unreasonable restraint of comments made were that the residential trade. encumbrance which binds a player to a club may The next instance I will mention I think sumts arise by a freak chance, and represent no real uip the whole attitude, and it concerns the case of connection of any description between him and Tutty versus Balmain Football Club and NSW the club in question. That was in the case of Hall rules. The argument that without the retain and and the VFL. Another comment was that the transfer rules all the better players would plaintiff's trade as a would-be professional congregate in the wealthy clubs to the detriment footballer was restrained because he was not of competition was rejected. permitted to choose, for whatever reason, the club The decision of the NSW Supreme Court with which he desired to be associated. Those was- comments are from a court judgment. The clubs can maintain competition I have already made the comment that the without these rules: They can have longer operation of the regulations may well suit the term of staggered contracts. A clubs VFL and its constituent clubs, but the matter investment in a player is not an interest does not rest there. A comment with regard to entitled to protection. Tutty was- A players skill is his property and not that However, very few of these players engage of his club. The existence of an appeal full time in professional football and most of procedure is irrelevant. The restraint is them are gainfully employed in other effectively world wide; the plaintiff could occupations as well. play nowhere in the English-speaking Rugby A comment with regard to Easthamn was- League world while these rules stand. The doctrine of trade is not limited to any Where a body controls a trade, profession category of skilled occupation, but applies to or occupation, a member has a right to follow employment generally, and in playing his trade etc. unhampered by unreasonable football for reward, albeit part time, the restraints of trade. He has the right to work plaintiff was engaged in employment within and a right to be employed. the doctrine. The final line in that case was most satisfying as Lord Atkin said- far as I am concerned because it stated- It is a misapprehension to suggest that this Order that the defendants pay the doctrine is confined merely to restraint of plaintiff's costs of this suit. trade in any ordinary meaning of the word That also happened in the Hall versus VPL case "trade"; it extends further than trade, it to the tune of $7 000, but Hall is still not able to undoubtedly extends to the exercise of a play football. man's profession or calling. The item I have just referred to pointed out Another comment with regard to Hall reads- that the wealthy clubs got wealthier and the But the answer to the question of whether weaker clubs got weaker. Another comment the regulations involve a restraint of trade so reads- far as the plaintiff is concerned does not In Mr Hamilton's opinion if the zoning depend upon whether they achieve a useful rules were removed a situation would arise in purpose so far as the VFL and its constituent which the wealthier clubs were able to clubs are concerned. -persuade the best talent from all areas in In every instance it can be seen that the ruling has Victoria to join them with the result that -not been in favour of the player and in each instance only would the wealthy clubs become he has been free to move. The players have stronger and stronger but the weaker clubs redress to the courts, and they should receive would become weaker and weaker. justice, but Hall did not get it because the clubs It seems as though we have heard those remarks joined forces to prevent it, and Magro will not get somewhere previously! An article appeared in the it. Somewhere in the background Stan Magro is Daily News of the 7th October in which the being held up. The right to work without being WANFL President, Mr Davies, said- unduly restrained is a right worthy of protection. I assume that all members of the Labor Party If zoning was scrapped, the competition would agree with that statement. It would indeed would fall into disrepute. be a strange weakness in the law if it affoirded no These quotations are available for any member to protection to a person who was against his will read if he is interested. The article continues- 3220 3220[COUNCIL]

The financially strong clubs would become released till the clubs were informed. But the stronger while the struggling clubs would players have clearly won the right to freedom become weaker. Then a player's rights would of movement at the end of their contracts, be in severe jeopardy. which has been the cause of their three year Quite a number of members have stated it has fight. been decided, in all instances, before a court of This means that a player no longer has to go back law and not by Parliament. In answer to those to his club of origin. We know what has happened statements, I refer those members to the instance with Barry Cable, the Perth Football Club and concerning Hall which was decided in the the VFL. Under a certain business proposition, he Supreme Court. In that case the costs were has been released, on the basis of pound for awarded to Hall. pound. It was stated by the Leader of the House It has been stated in this House that the at page 2520 of Hansrd- Government should not interfere with sport, and I ..itwill be a sad day when we start to agree it should not be necessary. The subject of legislate for sports which have been -operating cricket has been mentioned, and so has soccer. I pretty successfully on their own, and whose have already mentioned that the Hon. John members have made no requests to me, Or to Williams is aware that soccer players are created anyone else I know, for government control in a More humane way. The players are on in any form. contract, and they have a right. We Can assume that the Leader of the House was The Leader of the House, or the Leader of the not aware of the approach made by the WAN FL Opposition, mentioned that the next thing we will the other day when it requested that workers' have to legislate for is cricket. An article recently compensation be denied to sportsmen. It was appeared in the Press as follows- stated that the WA National Football League Cricketers in WA want to have a voice in was concerned with the position in which all policy and they have formed an Association sporting clubs were placed. So, there we are. We of Cricket Players. now have a request from the WANFL for The association includes WA Sheffield Parliament to intervene. The Leader of the Shield players and members of the Kerry House, while speaking, stated- Packer troupe. The clubs ought to give this matter their At a meeting on Tuesday night a steering close attention because if we legislate for one committee was formed. The committee aspect of football, the next time an argument comprises ]an Brayshaw, Ross Edwards, arises, either in the league or between a Wally Edwards, John Inverarity, Dennis country club and the league, someone,' will Lillee, Tony Mann, Rod Marsh, Bob Paulsen approach his local member seeking to amend and Kevin Penter. the Act. Once something becomes part of the The committee will have talks with a legislative framework of the country, we are lawyer next Tuesday night to draw up a pressured from all sides with requests for constitution. amendments. A spokesman said that all cricketers 1 will not deny that. However, is that not why we believed that they should have a meaningful are here'! Are we not here to see that justice is say in the sport. done within this State? The Leader of the House also said- What a breath of fresh air. We see the cricketers having a right. We know that soccer players and The people I know who are associated with rugby players have a right, but Australian rules football have always appeared to be very football just staggers along. decent, honest fellows who have the best interests of football at heart and are open to An article appeared in the Press recently with persuasion. regard to an agreement on UK soccer, It was as follows- Welt, perhaps the Leader or the House is more persuasive than I and the Minister for Recreation, T he threat of a strike by English because we have found those people to be footballers was finally averted yesterday completely immovable. To continue- when negotiations stretching back to 1974 were finalised with an agreement between If we legislate for footbail, every row and the Professional Footballers Association and every disagreement would generate a request the Football League. to the government for another amendment, Officials said that no information would be The Hon. D. K. Dans had this to say- [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977122 3221

I am sure everyone is aware that the people-whether the Government be a Labor officers of the league have the best interests Party Government or a Liberal Party of football at heart, not only in the Government-then the democracy or the metropolitan area but throughout the State; type of parliamentary representation we have they have the best interests of the public at in this country is in danger. heart, in presenting the Australian national When that day arrives it will be a very game in the best possible manner; and they sorry one for this place and this State. have at heart the best interests of the players who participate. Mr President, in summing up I would like to point out to some members of Parliament who stood up We will not mention the fact that the players no here tonight and offered me sympathy that I do longer have workers' compensation. However, not need their sympathy. I introduced this Hill assuming that the interests of the players are here because I believed in it, and I still believe in being taken into consideration, is it not desirable it. I do not believe that any eight directors in this that we should consider freeing them so that they State should be able to turn around to a boy living can negotiate a contract with a club of their in the country or in the metropolitian area and Choice, and so that if they are injured they will say, "You will play with that club or you will not have some form of compensation written down in play football for two years" or "You will stand a legally binding contract? Mr Dans went on to out of football as we have provided in the say- constitution and we can ban an interstate If this Bill were to pass, Parliament could clearance for two years. If you return to this State become engaged for ever and a day in and appeal, you may get knocked back this year looking at new regulations suggested by the and you still stand down for another year." I do National Football League .... not need the sympathy of members, but the I will agree with that. And again on page 2519 of footballers in this State need their sympathy, their HansardMr Dans had this to say- understanding, and their co-operation. If there are problems with the I am sorry there are not more Liberal members administration of football in this State, who believe in the part of their party's basic surely the best possible way to overcome philosophy of the freedom of the individual and those problems would be for the parties his rights to democratic treatment in his chosen concerned to get together... sport. This is part of our platform in the National The last statement to which I wish to refer Country Party. We have always said that we appears on page 2339 of Hansard. I admit that believe in private enterprise. Many members are this is a little out of context because on that not even here tonight. They have already said, "I occasion Mr Dans was not speaking to this Bill; am not going to vote for your Bill," but they do he was talking about the economic position of the not even know what it consists of. country. However, I feel his remarks are The Hon. V. J. Ferry: You are being a little applicable in this instance. He said- unfair. ... as public attitudes change, and as The lHon. TOM McNEIL: The honourable people realise that the Government does not member has had his say and has been told which truly reflect their wishes, the population as a way to vote. whole-and not the people committed to The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: You have bad particular political parties-will realise in enough for 20 men, and you have one bloke voting increasing numbers that Parliament is for you. irrelevant. The Hon. TOM McNEIL: Any member who is ... we find that the people are starting to interested in the WA National Football League- think more deeply about parliamentary The Hon. representation-,not the parliamentary G. C. MacKinnon: All this talk for one bloke who is going to vote for it. That is all democracy we have, but the methods by you can persuade. Has it ever crossed your mind which we operate it. I do not know whether that you could be wrong? other members of this House have that feeling. However, when people do not get the The Hon. TOM McNEIL: No, I am not wrong. right kind of representation, or their voice is This will be a human decision. I believe I have not heard in Parliament, they turn to other made my point- methods to get redress. The Hon. V. J. Ferry: You made a point all

*... When Parliaments or Governments right. become unresponsive to the wishes of the The Hon. TOM McNEIL: I wish the benches 3222 3222[COUNCIL] here were full so that all the members could hear I do not believe in the retrospective pursuit of thi. However, Liberal members have been told people who took some action when the law said already which way to vote. one thing, but which action is now deemed to be The Hon. Q. C. MacKinnion: They have not illegal when the law says another. However, it because they tre not interested in your- does make me a little unhappy that we cannot proposition. retrieve this money. The Hon. TOM McNEIL: I believe the We know that there is a great increase in the SWNFL constituents of the Leader of the House amount of white-collar crime. While I am aware asked him to vote for it. Mr President, I thank that tax avoidance is not a crime in the legal you for your indulgence, and I thank members for sense, to me it is both criminal and immoral. It is their silence in listening to me. I commend the amazing that people with very meagre means can Bill to the House. get away with very little in the way of breaking Question put and a division taken with the the law, but others who are probably very affluent following result- are able to avoid the payment of millions of dollars because they are clever enough to discern Ayes 7 a loophole in the law and use it. Hon. N. E. Baxter Hon T. McNeil Hon. H. W. Gayfer Hon. W. M. Piesse So we support the measure wholeheartedly. We Hon. Rt. T. Leeson Hon. Grace Vaughan are glad the Government was able to discover this Hon. F. E. McKenzie (Teller) loophole Noes 21' before more than the $1.2 million was Hon. G. W. Berry Hon. 1.0G. Medcalf lost. Hon. Rt. F. Claugliton' Hon. N. F. Moore THE HON. - MacKI NNON Hon. D. W. Cooley Hon. 0. N. B. Oliver G. C. (South- Hon. D. K. Bans Hon. R. G.Pike West-Leader of the House) (8.26 p.m.]: I thank Hon. Lyla Elliott Hon. 1.0G. Pratt the honourable member for her support of the Hon. V. J. Ferry Hon. 1.C. Tozer legislation. I intend to move a fairly considerable Hon. ft. Hetherington Hon. R. J. L. Williams Hcrn.T. Knight Hon. W. ft. Withers number of amendments to this legislation, and I Hon. A. A. Lewis Hen: D. J. Wordsworth have some notes explaining why this course is Mom, 0. C. MacKinnon H-on. G.E. Masters necessary. I gave a copy of these amendments to Hon. M. McAleer (Teller). memberg earlier so that they could have time to Question thus negatived. look at them. Bill-defeated. As I mentioned during my second reading speech, the parent Act will be examined in detail STAMP ACT AMENDMENT BILL but it is impossible to do that before next year. Second Reading When this amending Bill was discussed in another place it was pointed out that perhaps it would not Debate resumed from the 8th November. accomplish quite what we hoped it would THE HON. GRACE VAUGHAN (South-East accomplish. It wa's thought that people who fiad Metropolitian) (8.24 p.m.]:. The Opposition caught onto this loophole, could perform another supports this Bill which is aimed at closing a manoeuvre to escape a tax which the ordinary loophole in the Stamp Act that has enabled some person who goes straight ahead with land deals burglars to get away with money that belongs to would have to pay. the State. I very much object to these actions and Although this matter was raised in another I am sure all honest taxpayers object also. Some place, the Bill came here in the normal way. Just of us who are honest omit to include all the things last night .1 was advised of this further difficulty in our income tax returns, that we can include, and I was handed the list of amendments. I will and some of us are guilty of being dishonest in the move these amendments in the Committee debate, matter of taxation-whether income tax, stamp and I will explain that they are purely and simply duty, or any other tax-by actual omission. an endeavour to make more certain that those Quite obviously in the case to which we are who have been avoiding the tax will not be able to referring, although we use the euphemism of continue to do so by using another ruse. I "avoidance of tax", to my mind this is in fact a. commend the Bill to the House. criminal and immoral thing when people avoid Question put and passed. paying taxes that the State has imposed on the Bill read transfer of land and on other conveyancinfg a second time. transactions. It makes me unhappy that we cannot pursue those people who have already In Comniuec filched from this State an estimated $1.2 million. The Chairman of Committees (the Hon, V. J. [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771'3 '32233 terry) in the Chair; the I-on. G, C. MacKinnon stamp duty on the sale has been successfully (Leader of the House) in charge of the Bill. avoided. Clause I put and passed. Should the commissioner challenge the contents Clause 2: Section 73 amended- of the statutory declaration-and this would be extremely difficult, as the true position would The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: Clause 2 is to never be revealed to him-and as~ess the transfer amend the principal Act by deleting the words "4under which" in line 15 and substituting with proper ad valorem duty, then the exercising the of the commissioner's di scretionary power could words "in respect of which the Commissioner is be contested in court. satisfied that". Thus the facts would not be disclosed, together During the progress of this Bill in another with the presence of a statutory declaration, the place, a query was raised whether or not the contents of which may be misleading or even proposed amendment - went far enough. The incorrect, and the commissioner would probably proposed amendment is to provide the lose the appeal and the revenue would suffer commissioner with discretionary power. Members accordingly. will recall that last night I mentioned there was difficulty in! assessing whether a Person was As promised in another place the problem has putting land into a trust in order to avoid tax or received further consideration and it now becomes f'or genuine- purposes. It was left to the discretion necessary to amend the Bill in order to prevent of the commissioner. this type of situation arising and to give -greater safeguards to the revenue.- However, with the proposed amendment as it appears in clause 2 of the Bill, it is still possible I repeat: This will be examined further in the that the commissioner's discretionary power could ensuing period between now and next session. be subject to challenge. Nevertheless, the indications are that the legitimate revenue to the State which will ensue. In this situation the commissioner could be -from normal transfers could run into a forced, even by an appeal to a court of law, to considerable amount of money, perhaps millions accept the contents of a statutory declaration, of dollars. even though the intention at that time was to *avoid the payment of ad v'alorem duty.- Those people who pursue their transactions in the normal course of events will be paying the For example, a document could be prepared normal assessed tax. Those who, as the Hon. and submitted for assessment of stamp duty *whereby A agrees to transfer property to B and B Grace Vaughan said, can afford advice-I hesitate to use the phrase "better advice"-or are agrees to hold the property in trust for A. "clever" enough could avoid tax under the present In this case A is still the apparent owner and as arrangement.- B is, on the wording of die document, holding the The Hon. Grace Vaughan: I think "cunning" is property only as a trustee, it would appear that no an appropriate word. beneficial- ownership passes and nominal stamp duty of SI is payable. The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: It is wrong that one citizen should escape tax while inother The subsequent transfer from A to B. alleged to. pays it. Therefore, "Mr Chairman, I move an be onily a trustee for A under the terms of the amendment- initial document, could be supported by a statutory declaration stating that no beneficial Page 2, line I-Delete all words after the interest had passed. word -'amended" and substitute the following- Unless the commissioner could successfully repudiate the contents of the statutory (a) by adding after the section designation declaration, he would be forced to accept the facts "73." the subsection designation "(1)"; stated in the declaration and assess the transfer (b) by repealing the proviso to the section with nominal stamp duty. and substituting a proviso as follows- Foll]owing the transfer of the property into the Provided that- niame of B, a sale from A to B is arranged, outside (a) a conveyan ce or transfer made of Western Australia, and the purchase price is for effectu~ating the paid. Thay do that on a trip cast. appointment of a new trustee, As the legal ownership of the property is or the *retirement of a trustee,. already in the name of B, no further whether the trust is expressed documentation is necessary and the ad valorem or implied;, 3224 3224[COUNCIL]

(b) a conveyance or transfer made New Clause 4- to a beneficiary by a trustee or The Hion. G. C. MacKINNON: I move.- other person in a fiduciary Page 3-Insert after clause 3 the following capacity under any trust new clause to stand as clause 4- whether expressed or implied; 5&tion or 75 4. Section 75 of the principal Act amended. is amended by repealing (c) a conveyance or transfer under subsection which no beneficial interest (3) and substituting subsections as passes in the property conveyed follows-- or transferred not being a (3) The following conveyance or transfer which, conveyances or transfers, that is to in the opinion of the say- Commissioner, is made in (a) a conveyance or contemplation of the passing of transfer for a nominal a beneficial interest in that consideration for the property, purpose of' securing is not to be charged with any higher the repayment of an duty than one dollar. ; and advance or loan;, (b) a conveyance or (c) by adding subsections as follows- transfer for (2) An assessment of duty shall not be effectuating the subject to any objection or appeal under appointment of a new section thirty-two of this Act on any trustee, or the grounds relating to the exercise by the retirement of a Commissioner of the discretion trustee, whether the conferred on him by paragraph (c) of trust is expressed or the proviso to subsection (1) of this implied; section but a person who is dissatisfied (c) a conveyance or with a decision made by the transfer made to a Commissioner in the exercise of that beneficiary by a discretion may, within forty-two days trustee or other after the date of the assessment or person in a fiduciary within such longer period as the capacity under any Treasurer may allow, post to or lodge trust whether with the Treasurer an appeal in writing expressed or implied; stating fully and in detail the grounds on or which he relies. (d) a conveyance or (3) The Treasurer shall, with all transfer under which reasonable despatch, consider the appeal no beneficial interest and may either disallow it or, for passes in the property reasonable cause shown by the person conveyed or making the appeal, allow it. transferred not being a conveyance or (4) The Treasurer shall give to the transfer which, in the person making the appeal written notice opinion of the of his decision on the appeal and that Commissioner, is decision shall be final. made in Amendment put and passed. contemplation of the Clause, as amended, put and passed. passing of a Clause 3: Section 73A added- beneficial interest in that property, The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON: I move an amendment- shall not be charged with duty under this section. Page 2, line 28-Insert after the word "to" the passage "subsection (1) of". (3a) An assessment of duty shall not be subject to any objection or Amendment put and passed. appeal under section thirty-two of Clause, as amended, put and passed. this Act on any grounds relating to [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 323225

the exercise by the Commissioner of THE HON. R. HETHERINGTON (East the discretion conferred on him by Metropolitan) [8.46 p.m.]: This is a sorry Bill. It paragraph (d) of subsection (3) of is a piece of doctrinaire grandstanding which, in this section but a person who is order to make some kind of political gesture, at dissatisfied with a decision made by the same time indulges ini undesirable and the Commissioner in the exercise of unwarranted interference in the autonomy of our that discretion may, within forty- tertiary institutions in this State. two days of the date of the I want to deal with my opposition to the Bill assessment or within such longer under two headings. One is the principle of period as the Treasurer may allow, interference with the autonomy of the university post to or lodge with the Treasurer and the other tertiary institutions and one is on an appeal in writing stating fully the ground of the practical lack of necessity for and in detail the grounds on which this measure. In order to do so I will deal he relics. primarily with the oldest of these four institutions (3b) The Treasurer shall, with all which is the University of Western Australia reasonable despatch, consider the because what applies to that largely applies to the appeal and may either disallow it other institutions. However, I will say more about or, for reasonable cause shown by some of the things concerning the other the person making the appeal, allow institutions later. it. Firstly I would like to make some reference to (3c) The Treasurer shall give to the person some of the comments made by supporters of thc making the appeal written notice of his Bill. I am not saying they were people in this decision on the appeal and that decision shall House; I am speaking of supporters of the Bill in be final. the community. They made a song and dance The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: Mr Chairman, I am because students were forced to pay compulsory not very happy about the procedure being guild fees. Some who said this were members of adopted. Members of the Committee do not have the Liberal Government; that is, the Liberal copies of the amendments, which appear longer Government that was last in office before the than the Bill itself it is quite unfair of the Whitlam Government. They were quite prepared Minister to move such lengthy amendments when to support payments of university fees which cost members do not have copies. I object strongly to some people hundreds of dollars a year. this practice. Suddenly we found that some students were The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I sent about Five paying $70 a year because this was a compulsory copies around. If the honourable member had guild fee. When it was looked into it was round called for a copy, I would have arranged for him most of the compulsory guild fees, the vast to receive one. quantity of it, was in fact services and amenity The Hon. N. E. BAXTER: If every member fees which would have to be paid whether guilds was to have a copy, it would have required more existed or not. Tertiary institutions faced the fact than five copies to be distributed. I will not that this services and amenity fee, which would suppjort this kind of legislation. still have to be levied, would have to be New clause put and passed. administered by the universities and it would have to be increased because the institutions would Title put and passed. require paid staff to do the job that staff and Report guild members were then doing. Bill reported, with amendments, and the report So it caused a great deal of trouble and worry adopted. quite unnecessarily in order to stop the noise Third Reading made by some few students on the radical right Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. who wanted to accuse universities and guilds of 0. C. MacKinnon (Leader of the House), and being some sort of dens of left-wing iniquity. Of returned to the Assembly with amendments. course, this is nonsense. Before I get on to that aspect I want to talk ACTS AMENDMENT (STUDENT GUILDS about the question of autonomy of the university AND ASSOCIATIONS) BILL because it is an important principle. We have taken the first step to breech this principle and if Second Reading we are not careful it will be a step in the direction, Debate resumed from the 2nd November. where every time a Government does not like 3226 3226[COUNCIL] something that is going on in the universities it nonsensical Bill is that the guilds are hot allowed will introduce legislation, to correct the matter. to take an interest in education. They can take an The Hon. G. E. Masters: You are missing the interest in cultural and sporting affairs but point. educational affairs are not part or their brief. The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: No I am The University Act established the universities not. I suggest to the honourable member opposite and a Guild of Undergraduates and gate the that he is missing the whole point of what I am university, as an autonomous body under its own worrying about and he ought to consider the senate, the right to govern itself under its own whole problem -of university autonomy; the statutes. This is an important right that has to be autonomy of tertiary institutions. Once we start guarded jealously. interfering with the autonomny of tertiary I want the Hon. Gordon Masters to take note institutions it is a good idea to draw back because that quite often Governments with the best if we go too fair we might find we are making intentions in the world do foolish things in an quite improper interferences with their autonomy attempt to achieve better administrative efficiency and this could be bad for scholarship and freedom or to improve tertiary education. I point out that I in this country. The honourable member opposite am not accusing this Government of having good may smile and no doubt many people in Germany intentions. However, this was done some years smiled when the Nazis came into power. ago when the Tertiary Education Commission The Hon. G. E. Masters: I was enjoying your was set up. speech. At that time the Bill, which was fortunately The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: I was not smiling. amended, gave the commission the right to decide The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I point out on salaries and courses in universities. In other to the Minister that he is not- words, it would have taken away from the universities their raison d'etre and their *The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Which Minister? autonomy. This caused a great deal of worry at The Hon.;R. HETHERINGTON: The Hon. D. the university and with the university's staff J. Wordsworth. association and the administration. I know, The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: I was not smiling. because I was a member of the staff association at at you at all. the time and we made very urgent representations to the then Under-Treasurer who was on the The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I do not have a written speech. senate and through him to the then Premier, Sir David Branyd. I give the then Premier full credit The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Why accuse us of because, when it was pointed out what the Bill smiling? was about to do, an amendment was brought. in The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I was trying which deleted the obnoxious clause in the Bill. to point out to Mr Wordsworth that he is not the It was not intentional but had this Bill become only member opposite; he was not smiling and . an Act that clause would have taken away the did not refer to him. I was looking over his left university's autonomy and it is most important shoulder. The Minister should not be so touchy that universities remain autonomous; they should and in future if I want to accuse him of smiling I be able to bite the hand that feeds them because will refer to him by name, and if I refer to this is the mark of a free society. We should have honourable members in general he will know I am autonomous tertiary institutions whose members not referring to him. in their teaching and research are able to criticise I take this Bill very seriously. The University the Governments that pay them. When I say Act has set up the universities as autonomous Governments that pay them of course I mean they institutions and it states there will be a Guild of are paid through the taxpayers' money that all of Undergraduates. I think it is important that we us contribute. Once it is decided that remember that it is a Guild of Undergraduates Governments will decide what subjects because I want to refer to it later and I will be universities should teach or how they should referring to it when I move amendments in the teach, and once Governments decide people in Committee stage. It is a Guild of Undergraduates universities are teaching the kind of things with two things in common. It encompasses Governments think are improper, we are moving human beings who are at tertiary institutions to towards an authoritarian society. be educated. Therefore their primary interest is This can be done in a whole range of things. It likely to be that of education. was done in the Soviet Union under Stalin as far One of the interesting side issues of this as genetics was concerned. Stalin dictated the [Wednesday, 9th November, 1971] . 322732

only kind of genetics that could be taught in students will or will not be interested in; if the .universities in the Soviet Union. In Hitler's Government can decide what students may or *Germany there was a whole range of doctrines may not jump up and down about or spend their which were the only ones allowed to be taught at money on, the Government might take the next universities. step and decide what teachers at the university In our universities we cherish the freedom we will teach and what students in the university will have and I sometimes think universities do not use study; and then the next step might be to decide sufficiently the freedom to be outspoken and how they will study and what the received truths critical; to criticise the people who pdt us there will be. and pay us, I was a bit anachronistic for a The Hon. G. E. Masters: That is ridiculous. *moment but I am still being paid by the same The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: It is not. taxpayers. Our universities are able to follow their own research because it has been decided by The Hon. G. E. Masters: Of course it is.- people in the field that this is desirable research. The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I suggest to I remember the very real distress of a Minister the honourable member that if he tinks it is in a Government of one State-I will not specify ridiculous he should study some of the history of the Government because it is not important, but it Germany,. is art interesting example-who had to find extra The Hon. G. E. Masters: I can get it all from money to match grants from the Universities you. Grants Commission and he looked at the whole The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: If the range of research and saw that some of the honourable member wants me to spend several research was on eleventh century medieval canon hours telling him some things which have law. He said to me very bitterly that in order to occurred I will do so, but I do not particularly finance research of medieval canon law he had to want to. There have been many instances in take money from a whole range of socially useful Europe and in the United States where people, objectives. I understand how he felt because he because they know what is good for other people, * regaided these things as terribly important. If he want to interfere with autonomous bodies and had been given the right to decide whether this destroy firstly scholarship, and secondly freedom: area or that was to be chosen he would have gone Once that is done those responsible are treading against the research in the university and he on dangerous ground. would have gone (or what seemed to him to be a more practically useful area. However, he was not If the honourable member is suggesting that I allowed to decide and he faced the fact that there think this is his intention, that is nonsense. I do, were other -bodies that decided and it was up to not believe that is his intention at all. I do not the particular State Government at the time of believe it is the Government's intention. I am just ma tching grants to match the grants. saying that, in order to do this thing-and I cannot see any real reason for it except to make It is probably just as well that this is the way some kind of gesture-the Government is taking a things happen in this community. I do not know potentially dangerous tiny step on the road to whether the study of medieval canon law will be interference with the freedom of free inquiry and socially useful. I know the gentleman studying it scholarship. I will not pursue that further, but I and he found it very exciting. I do not understand think it is a most important principle. It worried why but it was his joy in life. me considerably when I first heard about it, andI The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Isn't this was then still a university teacher. As a university legislation about students? teacher I was appalled that a Government would The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I am trying decide to step in, for its own purposes, and ~to set it in a context of broader principles. I am introduce the legislation. trying to point out that in this instance in this Act I would point out that the legislation was not the. University of Western Australia and the other wanted by anyone except a small minority fringe. tertiary bodies under Statute had passed Statutes It was not wanted by gny university or tertiary in'which they decided that their university and institution in the country. It was not wanted by student guild should be run in a certain way any university or tertiary institution which seemed in their wisdom to be the best way administration. It was not wanted by any student to run those guilds, but the Government has guild, and it was not wanted by the majority of. decided now this is not the best way. students. There was a great consensus of opin ion If it can be done with the way students run among students-right, left, and centre-on the guilds and the Government can decide what Bill and it certainly cannot be said that those who 3228 3228COUNC IL] opposed it were necessarily radical left-wingers. If What the Hill does is to decide for the tertiary that were said it would be nonsense. institutions how their guild will be conducted. It The Hon. 0. N. B. Oliver: Why would the right does this very peculiar thing because in the attack the left as you have been reported as interests of voluntaryism, I think the word is, it saying in the Press? says that in future the students--I will refer to the University of Western Australia because this The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: What was I is the institution I know-of the university no reported as saying in the Press? longer have to belong to the guild or pay the fee The Hon. 0. N. B. Oliver: The report was on to the guild. Of course, students of the University page 24 of The Bulletin of the 18th June. of WA never have had to belong to the guild. The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: Does it They could opt out, so in fact that is what is mention me, or the right attacking the left? happening. It is quite a normal thing. Several members interjected. The H-on. D. J. Wordsworth: How could they The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think the opt out? honourable member would do well to address the The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: An opt-out Chair. clause was written in. They could opt out- on The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I must have conscientious grounds. a look at the article because I have not seen it. The Hon. D.. J. Wordsworth: Who wrote that However, so far, nothing that has been reported in into the constitution? The Bulletin as having been said by me has been The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: The accurate. I remember a most scurrilous article in university senate which was the body which made The Bulletin about the politics department. At the the statute. time I was in the department and it said we were The H-on. D. J. Wordsworth: It must have conducting a campaign of terror because several appreciated the need. members of the department had signed a public The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: What I am protest against right-wing students. One student, suggesting is that whilst the senate recognised who later recanted I am glad to say, actually that most people should belong to the guild, it accused one member of the department of being also realised that some people, far very good prejudiced against him, but he chose quite the reason, would want to opt out; and so it gave them wrong person and later retracted what he said the right. because he realised he had been foolish. However this kind of emotionalism can double up, and The The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Only one has Bullefin is always the first to exploit it. opted out. The publication itself, and those who write for The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon-. It was not a right. it, including Mr Peter Solomon and Hal It was "may". Colebatch, and certainly people on campuses in The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: The senate saw Western Australia are guilty in this respect. If the need but only one was able to actually do it. ever there is any plot around the place it is these One student actually opted out. people who are together trying to accuse The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: Does the universities of being part of the "left Minister say that only one actually opted out or establishment" which is the coined term. They only one was able to opt out? How many tried? I accuse all sorts of people of politicising at the think the Minister should be careful because there university. However, those people who make the is a difference between saying only one opted out accusations are, in fact, accusing other people of and only one was able to opt out. doing the very thing they themselves are doing. The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: It was very I had people accuse me of doing this when I difficult to actually do it. was at the university, when I was not doing it, but The Hon. Grace Vaughan: It was very simple. they were. Therefore I do not accept anything The Bulletin says. It publishes things which suit The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I will allow it; it publishes propaganda, but very rarely facts. a member of the university senate to take up that It is interesting to read it, but it is very suspect. point later because I am sure she will do it better than The 'DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I suggest to the 1. honourable member that The Bulletin is not The Hon. A. A. Lewis: That would not be hard. mentioned in the Bill. The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: The Hon. The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: That is a Sandy Lewis is starting that sort of' thing again, is point well taken, and I will return to the Bill. he? [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 322932

The Hon. A. A. Lewis: No I am not. With the As I have said before, people view others in drivel you are talking, it would not be hard for different lights. It is not I who change, but anyone to do better. people's views of me change. We have all these The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! I would things, but we do not have the organised like to hear the Hon. R. Hetherington. disruption. As a matter of fact, ironically enough The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I anm the first sit-in we had was against the student becoming a little tired, every time I speak, of guild and it was overcome reasonably amicably. hearing Mr Lewis tell me I am talking drivel. It seems to me that if the idea of the The Hon. A. A. Lewis: I am stating a fact. Government is to keep a fairly sane and balanced The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON, If that is student body in the tertiary institutions of well what the honourable member believes, he is Western Australia it should have left things entitled to his belief. alone because the guilds in our tertiary institutions were serving us well. They were The Hon. A. A. Lewis: I suppose now we will putting students into the guilds; they were have an hour's lecture on the fact that I am. electing students to administer the guilds; an(~ The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Order! I will they were teaching students to be responsible. appreciate it f the honourable member will refer If there is any criticism to be made of to the Bill. them-and it is made by some people-it is that The Hrn. R. H-ETHERINGTON: The they are helping to get students integrated into University of WA Guild of Undergraduates has the capitalist system and making them part of the been established for a long time and has worked establishment. People have offered this criticism. very well. I must say that when I first arrived at I would not think that was the kind of criticism the University of Western Australia I thought it made by the Minister for Transport and those was a conservative institution and I wondered if in members behind him. fact this was in the best interests of the university. The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: I am surprised This was because of my innate conservatism, and you should take such pleasure in doing it. because the university here was not like the university at Adelaide where there was a student The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: So it seems union which looked after services and amenities, to me pragmatically that the student guilds were and which had representatives including students, acting and behaving well. I have known in and a student representative council which did not Western Australia a whole series of guild have the responsibility and acted more like a presidents and only one of them I have regarded student trade union, if I may put it that way. It as not being a very good president; I will not became a bit confusing. mention his name. They were people from all One of the aspects which I consider is shades of the political spectrum, from Sue Boyd interesting with regard. to the WA University to Kim Beazley, Junior. guild and the WA students is that at a time in The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Would he be your this country when throughout campuses in great union leader? Australia the new left group was in evidence, The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I do not go there was a great deal of radical student back that far. I am talking about my former movement. I do not know whether we should say students. Most of them seem to do politics 10 on this is a reason to get rid of the guild. However, the way before they go on to something else. the WA students remained calmer and less The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Something practical. radical than did students in the Eastern States. We have seen you trying to replace your leader in They made their protests, but did not have the sit- the last couple of days so well that it does not ins, the disruptions, or the whole range of things matter. which occurred at other universities: The Hon. R. H-ETHERINGTON: That is a As a member of the teaching staff I was very foolish interjection. I could not hope to certainly grateful for this. It was not that we did replace my leader. I would have thought we not have students who were violently disagreeing complemented each other and I have no desire to with us, with the university, and with our replace him because I think of him with the attitudes and our society; it was not that we did greatest respect and friendship. I resent that not have arguments and debates; it was not that statement. Never mind; I had better get back to students would not challenge people in the the Bill. department of politics about their views and call people like me members of the bourgeoisie. People It therefore seems to me the Bill does nothing on all sides are called names. useful and it does this odd thing. The Minister 3230 3230COUNCIL] was committed, by *a remark during the students would elect the guild. We have in the Bill campaign, to do something about student guilds, a provision that all students may vote for a body and when he came to do something about them he to which they do not belong. found these not very radical administrative bodies * The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: That is not the of tertiary institutions were most unhappy about reason at all and you know it is not. it. The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I am saying The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: Which Minister that has been done. A provision has been written made the odd remark? into the Bill that all students will vote for a body The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: The Premier to which many of them will not belong. They will made the odd remark during his campaign. all be paying a services and amenities fee which The H-on. D. J. Wordsworth: You said the will be administered by the guild, but although Minister made it. they are not prepared to join the guild they will The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I said the decide who constitutes the guild. This seems to Minister had to produce the Bill because of an me to be rather unfortunate. It means people who odd remark made by the Premier. Members are not prepared to join the guild will vote for the opposite can say that the Premier either put this Build, and that does not make a lot a sense to me. in his policy or he did not. If he did, it is the only Had the university itself decided to appoint justification for it; if he did not, I do not know administrative officials to administer the services why we have the Bill. But it was mentioned in the and amenities fee, would it then be suggested that election campaign. the students elect those officials? I do not think The Hon. R. G. Pike: It is in the policy speech. so. In the days when students paid fees for tuition The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Does that make it odd? they did not even have a representative on the senate of the university. They certainly did not The Hon. R. F. Claughton: I would think so. It then elect the people who administered their was a very odd policy. funds. But now, for some reason, when they pay a The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: That part of services and amenities fee, although the students it was odd. So the Minister found himself in the who are not prepared to join the guild are position that he had to do something about the prepared to use the serices which the guild guilds; and he found there was quite solid and provides the labour to administer, it is provided consistent opposition-it was not very loud that everybody can have a say in electing the opposition, but muted and gentlemanly student guild. opposition-from everybody connected with I wonder-I do not know and I suppose the universities. He found it was not possible just to Minister will deny it-whether it is reasoned that abolish the fee, and he also found that in the only radical students will join the guild, and that University of Western Australia, if he took away if all students can vote it will ensure radical the services and amenities the guild supplied and handed them over to the university, it would have students are not elected to the guild. if that is the to provide extra administrators with salaries reason it seems to me that will not happen and the very opposite is likely to happen which would make it necessary to increase the fee. because there In fact, some calculations were made about how will be resentment on the part of the students. much the fees would have to be increased. The Even with so-called compulsory student elections, estimates varied but there was a general when all students were compelled to vote for the consensus that unless the guilds continued to guild-and not many did-small groups of administer the services and amenities which it had radical students- been administering for a long time in a reasonably The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: What do you efficient manner, it would be necessary to raise mean by "radical"? the compulsory fees which people had said the The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: Radicals are students should not be paying. people who want to produce some kind of change So we have the Bill brought forward as an odd for better or worse. They think it is for better but and messy compromise, where a compulsory we often think it is for worse. They want change. amenities and services fee is still charged and the They want to undermine what is. There can be a university is then to allow the guild to administer radical left and a radical right, and for the the fee. Let us assume 50 per cent of students join purpose of this debate I am using "radical" in the guild. If only 10 per cent of the students that sense. There can be radical students on either joined the guild, who would elect the guild? If 50 side who compete to try to seize control of guilds, per cent joined the guild. 50 per cent of the and if this happens they can sweep through with a [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 3233231 ticket because they can organise better than the The Hon. G. E. Masters: We are not denying others can, and we will be worse off. them an interest but they cannot spend funds on One of the things about students is they are it. reasonably well balanced. If they are not well The H-on. R. HETHERINGTON: They can balanced in one year they usually adjust spend funds on cultural matters but not on themselves in another year. In other words, in the educational matters. It seems to me to be odd that usual processes of election and representation in they cannot spend funds on educational matters. our tertiary institutions, students usually manage Is it feared funds will be spent propagandising to adjust themselves from year to year. I was against the Government? I have no doubt if we told-and I will have to find out more about were in government funds would be spent by some this-that at WAIT the left wing, whoever that student guild in attacking us, and I would be quite means, has been swept aside and there is now a happy to let it do that. right-wing guild. But this is not how everybody The Hon. G. E. Masters: With those funds? else sees it. It is true the president of the guild at The Hon. ft. HETH-ERINGTON: Yes. I see WAIT is now a Liberal; that is, he votes Liberal. no reason why a student guild which has been I do not know whether he is a member of the properly elected should not use its funds to say Liberal Party. that the educational policy of a Government to The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: You certainly which I belong is wrong. It seems to me to be just know how everyone votes down there. ordinary democracy and one of the principles we The Hon. R. HETH-ERINGTON: I have been should accept if we believe in liberal democracy, which I do believe in. "Liberalism" is a technical told about this by a member of the Labor Party at WAIT who said, "He is all right; he votes Liberal term. Liberalism has produced both the Liberal Party and the Labor but he is quite sensible." There was no feeling on Party. We are both descendants of liberalism; one party is a party of the part of this particular Labor Party liberal conservativism and the other of liberal student-who I suppose organised against socialism. They are based on the liberal principles him-that some demon had seized control or that of individual freedom. there had been a great victory on one side or the other. He seemed to think a moderately well- The Hon. G. E. Masters: Are you saying that balanced guild had been elected at WAIT; he with tongue in cheek? would like it otherwise, but he was happy enough The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: No. That is with it and was prepared to work with it. No something 1 seriously believe. When I am talking doubt he will try to change its composition next about democratic socialism and individual time, which is what we try to do with our freedom my tongue is never in my cheek because elections to this Parliament-at least as far as the I take it far too seriously. I may be wrong. other House is concerned. In this place we do not I think perhaps I have said all I need to say. often succeed. My attitude to the Bill is quite clear. I do think This is an undesirable provision. The that the Government even at this stage should Government is imposing from without provisions withdraw the Bill. If it does not do that, I think it which none of the tertiary institutions want. Let should at least accept all or some of the me repeat that again and again. The University of amendments I will move in the Committee stage, Western Australia Senate complained about it. It because this Bill is one that does the Government might have had to accept the fair accompli but it no credit. I have said before, and I will repeat it did not want this legislation and would still like yet again that the Bill was not wanted by any changes made to it. It would still at least like to governing body of any of the, tertiary institutions. see written into the legislation one amendment, I am sure that nobody could say the Senate of the which I will move later in the evening, gi ving University of Western Australia is a radical body. guilds the right to take an interest in educational I have never found it to be so; as a matter of fact, matters and giving students the right to be sometines I have been quite bitter in my feelings actively interested in education. This seems to be towards it because it is so conservative. something which we should not find too bard to It is a quiet, conservative body which I suppose understand. I am very upset when students are is what we expect from university senates; they not intetested in education, and I certainly think are there to try to keep the lid on some of the we should give a student guild the right to bc wilder stu dents, if there are any, and to ensure interested in education, make a noise about that the interests of the university are protected education, and criticise the Government's policy from the radical right and the radical left outside. on education. So I sincerely suggest to the Minister for 3232 3232[COUNCIL]

Transport, representing the Minister for the Government is intent on following its policy Education, that the Government should document, which I am sure the honourable reconsider this Bill and if it cannot find it in its member has seen on numerous occasions, and the heart to withdraw it-and I suppose it will not pages of which are numbered so that it is easy to because I assume it has the numbers- pick out the various points. On page 29 under the The Hon. 6. E. Masters: Yes, we have. heading of "Student Rights", our policy states that we will make membership of student guilds The Hon. R. H-ETHERINGTON: The Whip assures me that the Government has the numbers. at tertiary institutions voluntary, and remove compulsion. That was our policy when we went to However, I still ask the Government to give the people; and the people knew that not only did serious consideration to accepting all or some of my amendments. If the Minister accepts at least we want to make student membership voluntary, but also union membership and the membership somne of them it would make a bad Bill better, and of many other organisations, it would be something for which I would be duly grateful. The Hon. Lyla Elliott: Since when did this Legislative Council concede that a Labor THE HON. G. E. MASTERS (West) 19.32 Government bad a mandate from the people? p.m.]: I would like to make a few comments in Many Bills have been introduced by Labor respect of this Bill. I listened with some interest to Governments for which they had a mandate, but the Hon. R. H-etherington, and I would assure which were rejected by this place. him that the smile appeared on my face simply because I have a very good friend who addresses The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I am talking about the mandate this Government me received in in exactly the same manner in which Mr February of this year-a time I am sure Hetherington seems to address me across the floor members when he speaks. My friend is also a dedicated opposite would wish to forget. The Government has a clear mandate, socialist, and he lectures me accordingly. and if the honourable member would like me to give her the election I am not really sure whether Mr Hetherington figures 1 will be happy to do so. is in favour of the idea of voluntary membership The Legislative Council candidates of student guilds- or whether in fact he violently of the anti- socialist parties gained 56.11 per cent of the vote, opposes it. However, I would like to speak and candidates or socialist parties scored 41.73 generally about the Bill rather than go into the per cent. .historical background of tertiary institutions. I am sure Mr Hetherington has more knowledge of The Hon. D. K. Dans: What has this to do with that subject than I have. the Bill? One matter to which he referred was freedom. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I have been asked He says he is interested in the rights of individual whether the Government has a mandate to carry freedom, and so are members on this side. That is out the intention of this Bill, and I am pointing what this Bill is all about. out that it does. The Hon. R. Hetherington: I said the rights of The Hon. D. K. Dans: How are you going to the individual also depend on the rights of the enforce it? institution. The Hon. G. E3.MASTERS: Just give me time. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We are talking I have pointed out the mandate we have which about voluntary membership of associations, and was given to us in February or this year by the surely that involves freedom of choice. public. However, that is an aside which I introduced because obviously the Hon. Lyla I accept the high academic reputation of Mr Elliott was not quite clear in respect of our Hetherington. Hei has been at the university for & mandate. long time and he knows something of what he was speaking about, although he is a little biased; but The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: This is Rot we expect and accept that. He has been here for repressive legislation but free legislation. eight months and it seems in that time he has The H-on. G. E. MASTERS: Yes. Our policy given us many lessons. Tonight it seems he was document was quite explicit in respect of this telling the public what is good and what is not legislation, and now it has been introduced as was good for them. However, the fact that he becomes our intention. so intense and lectures us in this fashion has The Hon. D. W. Cooley: What is the page caused me some amusement in the past, and it number of your policy document? was for that reason I showed some mirth tonight. The Hon. D. K. Dans: Are the pages I applaud the Bill because it demonstrates that numbered? [Wednesday, 9th November, l977] 323323

The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Isn't it amazing that discuss this later. We have grown accustomed to neither of you listened to Mr Masters when he his telling the public what is good and what is not said that it is? good for them. The Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: I would like to get The Hon. Grace Vaughan: You are telling the back to the Bill, because obviously members students what is good for them. opposite are getting upset. I believe there should The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: No, I am talking be no compulsion in respect of the membership of now about the usage of student guild funds. student guilds, unions, or other such bodies. I The Hon. Grace Vaughan: I am talking about believe in voluntary membership. the students. The Hon. D. W. Cooley: You don't believe in The Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: Well, I am talking unions at all. about the Bill, which is more than Mr The Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: Do not be silly. Hetherington did. Whenever Mr Cooley speaks and whenever he interjects, he is always dealing with unions. Let us The Hon. Grace Vaughan: You are standing get back to some common sense. I am saying that over them. 1, personally, and the members of the Liberal and The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We are giving National Country Parties believe in voluntary them the opportunity to join or not to join the membership of trade unions and student guilds. guilds. The Hon. D. W. Cooley: You wouldn't think so The Grace Vaughan: They have that right by the way you areacting. already. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We gave a clear The Hon. 0. E. MASTERS: That is rubbish, ,demonstration of this in our policy statement, and and the Hop.. Grace Vaughan knows it. we have now introduced legislation in respect of The Hon. Grace Vaughan: They have the right. voluntary membership of student guilds. We The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: They have not; I introduced legislation in November, 1976, dealing can even see that the honourable member has her with the voluntary membership of trade unions. tongue in her cheek. When we went to the public our policy was clear and explicit, and we were elected on that The Hon. Grace Vaughan: It is very easy to opt platform. oit. We have the situation today in which students The Hon. G. 2. MASTERS: Obviously the attending university are compelled to join student funds of student guilds must be watched carefully. guilds; and we say they' simply should not be We propose that they be used on amenities and compelled to do so but should have the facilities and nothing else; and, of course, it is opportunity to join or not to join. necessary that students make some contribution towards these. The Hon. D. K. Dans: How will they go if they are marksmen? The Hon. Grace Vaughan: You want to cloister them and not allow them to have anything to do The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: That is facetious with the outside world. and it does not do Mr Dans justice. We are talking about the voluntary membership of The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We are concerned student guilds. that there has been a misuse of funds in certain areas. We know that sometimes expenditure has The previous speaker made an interesting been made on dubious left-wing groups. We have comment. I cannot understand why he should fear read all about the PLO. the situation because if the majority of students do not want the measure and actually oppose it, The Hon. Grace Vaughan: That is a very then they have the opportunity to join the guild, serious allegation. anyway. They will have the opportunity to show The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: As far as many of they object to the policy of the Government by the. students are concerned, they are not very joining the student guilds. Therefore, why is Mr happy with the use of the funds in certain areas. Hetherington so worried? According to him he The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Tell us which ones. will have all the numbers he needs; but of course Are they members of your party? he knows that is not true. We are concerned, of The lHon. G. E. MASTERS: I do not have to course, about the usage of studeit funds. .name the students. When they have the The Hon. D. W. Cooley interjected. opportunity to join the guilds on a voluntary basis, The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I wish Mr Cooley the honourable member will find out what is would listen. He will have an opportunity to happening, and that is all we are saying. We want (102) 3234 3234[COUNCIL] to give them the opportunity to join the guilds if The Hon. G. E. MASTEkS: Then perhaps I they so desire or not to join them if they do not have been misinformed. wish to do so; and really members opposite have The Hon. Grace Vaughan: You have been. no grounds on which to argue against that. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Then when she The Hon. Grace Vaughan: You haven't any speaks the Hon. Grace Vaughan will be able to grounds on which to argue for it. tell me what happens to a student who refuses to The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We know there pay guild fees. are many areas of concern. As I understand it the The Hon. Grace Vaughan: I will tell you when student guilds in Western Australia are members I stand up, so you can drop that for the moment. of the Australian Union of Students, and when we The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Quite obviously look at the administration costs of that body we the Hon. Grace Vaughan is an expert, and she are astounded at the amount of money spent on will explain this to my satisfaction. administration. We are suggesting there be a levy, and that the The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Do you know how levy be used for certain acceptable things, such as low they are? They are the fourth lowest in amenities and facilities. That is all we are Australia. suggesting. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Does that give The Hon. Grace Vaughan: You are suggesting them the right to spend that proportion of money a little more than that. on administration? The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: No we are not. I The H-on. Grace Vaughan: It is a small quote from line 2, page 4 of the Bill as follows- percentage of about $2.80 a head. ... moneys derived from these fees to the The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We are talking Guild upon the conditions that those moneys about a total expenditure of approximately are applied solely for the purposes of the $300 000, and I am interested to know where provision of amenities or services for students those funds go. or the development of cultural, social, Several members interjected. sporting or recreational activities.. The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: We are simply I think that is quite clear and explicit. The stating that if students of the university do not intention of the Bill is to make sure that the funds wish to join the guild then they do not have to. are spent specifically for those purposes and that That is all we ask. the spirit and the intention of the Bill are adhered to. Honourable members can hardly object to the The Hon. R. Hetherington interjected. Dill because if the guild is able to offer a service The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: There is not need and attract the students it will get the for Mr Hetherington to get nasty. membership, and if Mr Hetherington is right and The Hon. Grace Vaughan: You are standing most of them wish to continue as guild members, over and interfering with them. they will be able to do so. We are simply saying-and this is Liberal policy and my firm The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I have not been belief-that they have the opportunity quite abusive towards Mr Hetherington at any time; in easily to opt out. In other words, it is voluntary fact I find him very entertaining to listen to. As a membership. matter of fact, when a primary school visited Parliament House the other day I used some of The Hon. R. Hetherington: They have to opt in his comments because I thought they were good. now. That iswhat was done with unions. The Hon. R. Hetherington: I am glad I am of The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Let us make the some use. situation quite clear: They have the opportunity to join the guild if they wish. The Bill is exactly in The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: I am simply line with our policy. It demonstrates our belief pointing out that as I am kind to Mr that there should be freedom of choice and the Hetherington, he should be kind to me. right of the individual. If students are involved in Ifra student refuses to join the guild at present I a particular association their funds should be understand he is deprived of his rights and protected to a certain extent and they should have privileges. the certain knowledge of where these funds are The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Nonsense. being spent. This Bill simply points that out and makes it quite clear. Therefore, our intention is The Hon. G. E. MASTERS: Is that not so? quite clear: We wish for voluntary membership of The Hon. R. Hetherington: It is not so. the student guild. I support the Bill. [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977])23 3235

THE HON. 0. N. B. OLIVER (West) [9.47 to be responsible or one will have what the Hon. p.m.]: I should like to comment on the remarks R. Hetherington often tells us about, and that is made by Mr Hetherington because he touched on the need for change and we must be prepared for a subject which is close to my heart also; that is, change. We will be prepared to change if people the autonomy of universities and colleges. If any do not behave in a responsible way. legislation is brought forward in this Parliament Recently the Australian National University that interferes with that autonomy I would issued a questionnaire to the staff because it support it provided that the bodies act in a found it had a large surplus of money-I am not responsible way. sure of the amount-but it did not know how to The Hon. R. Hetherington: That is a little spend it. So the staff were asked how they dangerous because you have to decide what is thought the money should be spent. When this responsible. was announced in Adelaide the Press did not The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: One cannot believe it. I hope the Press will continue to report isolate oneself from the community. I have our Parliament and to cover both sides of the listened to members tonight talking about unions. arguments. The Press could not believe this Unions of what? There are all sorts of unions but questionnaire because the priorities in it were an Mr Cooley seems to have a copyright on unions. Alpine village ski resort, a nudist colony, a solf- The Hon. R. Hetherington: He was talking help garage, a health farm, and another very nice place which I have visited, a fishing village at about trade unions. lindabyne where there are excellent trout. The The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: I presume he was final priority was the possibility of the money talking about trade unions. One of the reasons I going to charity. became disenchanted with unibns was that one If this sort of situation prevails change year I had will to pay a compulsory annual fee to two occur and the autonomy which I hold dear will unions in the same industry. I became fed up with also suffer. It is said that this Sort of situation is having to pay two compulsory annual subscriptions to two unions. brought about by. government. Before I was selected to stand for the electorate which I now The Hon. Lyla Elliott: Which unions were represent I was approached by at least 20 or 30 they? students because I was on a board of a college; The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: One was the and not one of* those students believes this Australian Workers' Union and the other was the legislation is wrong. I have received hundreds of Wool and Basil Workers Union. Both handle the telephone calls and letters from people saying that same commodity but one operates in one part of this is the right thing to do. the industry and the other operates in another The Hon. R. Hetherington: I have the opposite part of the industry; and because of the seasonal experience so it is quite interesting. nature of the industry I had to belong also to the The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: I shall invite AWU. Incidentally, I could not pay a fee for these people to the House so that they may meet three months or six months; it had to be an the Hon. R. Hetherington because fromn what I annual fee. When I reverted to the other seasonal can understand they are not from any particular part of the industry I had to pay a fee to the Wool political persuasion. I do not delve into their and Basil Workers Union as well. So members can understand why I became disenchanted. privacy in this matter, but they are genuine and honest students. I come back to autonomy. This is something we The .Hon. Grace Vaughan: If I invited the ones should fight for and jealously guard, and from the who are against the legislation we would have way Mr Hetherington spoke I hope he feels about to go to King's Park because they will not fit in here. it in the same way I do. But it must be within the confines of responsibility. We all know that the The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: We have heard of academia is probably the most protected industry an example of a practise sit-in at the Guild of in Australia. Some people say it is the most Undergraduates. Members would know what will overpaid. I understand that from gardeners right happen if we start bringing these two factions through to the chancellor the average salary is together. What I take exception to and what $20 000 a year. I believe in sabbatical leave.' I prompted these people to telephone me was that have many close friends who are serving in they found that unless they paid student fees, various universities throughout the examination papers would not be marked and Commonwealth at the moment and some of them they could not graduate. are on academic leave in Africa and the United The Hon. Grace Vaughan: What utter States. The point I am coming to is that one needs nonsense! 3236 3236(COUNCIL]

The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: I made a note to student body and members of the student take up this matter and I was informed by a council, but will be unable to participate in departmental bead that it was correct. Then this the activities of the student body without policy was announced by the Liberal Party about subscribing the additional funds required for last November and the academic staff said, membership of the student body. "There is about to be a change", because they The final point is- thought the coalition Government would remain in power on the 19th February this year. So there ... student bodi'es should be organised for, was a change. and administered by, students; not by members of the academic staff or people The Hon. Grace Vaughan: That is an absolute fabrication. outside any particular institution. I spelt out those matters because I understand The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: So they waived this right. If anybody doubts me I would be people are confused. I read in the newspaper that delighted to bring these people to this House. the new President of the University of Western Australia Student Guild w'as uncertain about The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Absolute nonsense. I them. I hope that they are clear now and that the bet you are not game to say that outside the Opposition will understand them when dealing House. with this legislation. One of the principal factors The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: I shall say that which brought about this legislation is the outside the House and name the person too. relationship of the student guilds to the The IHon. Grace Vaughan: You should. Australian Union of Students which another The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: Can we come member referred to as costing $2.80 per year for back to the relevance of this debate? each student. The Hon. Grace Vaughan: That would be a A group of these people has been acting in an good idea. irresponsible manner and so we see the form of The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: Last night there controls or the autonomy being affected. I would was an incident in this Chamber and we saw this like to quote from page 4 of the Nation Review of sort of thing. the 25th August. It reads as follows- The H-on. W. R. Withers:. Is that the Tribune? AUS: the reason why. People and institutions must be judged not only by what The Hon. 0. N..B. OLIVER: It is called the they do, but also by what they are prepared Tribune; it was thrown from the public gallery to put up with. Connivance is a species of onto the floor of the House. moral and political complicity. This is the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I should like the context in which the significance of the honourable member to relate his comments to the Australian Union of Students must be Bill. assessed. The i-on. 0. N. B. OLIVER: Yes, thank you. I The article then continues about a Melbourne shall deal with the specific aspects of the Bill and student called Michael Danby, who together with spell out where the changes are so that the a few others decided to question the Opposition is not confused as it has been on administration and control of the Australian previous occasions, particularly last night. Let us Union of Students, might I say at considerable deal with the facts and let us not deal with risk. The article continues- irrelevancies. In his second reading speech the Minister said- Michael Danby took both the lead and the main blows, physical and political. ... no academic benefit, right or privilege, Throughout the year Danby was singled out would be denied to, or withheld from, any and subjected to a remorseless campaign student who chose not to become a member aimed at his destruction in which bashing of a student body. alternated with character assassination and The second point deals with voluntary which all communist factions, not only or membership. The legislation provides that- even predominantly the maoists, participated. ... all enrolled students will be required to They were merely the most clumsily visible pay a fee for the provision and maintenance ones. of student recreational facilities and As a result, this situation was brought to light and amenities... it is now commonly known throughout the The third point is-enrolled students will members. I will be listening to the speakers who be entitled to vote for the president of the follow me. It continues- [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 323723

(1) The AUS is directed exclusively by a aggression. It is niothing new to me. It is a subject set of feuding communist outfits, it has close I have not only studied, but I have seen in affinities with terrorist operations, and it practice; and what I have practised I have seen. contains a proportion of personally disturbed The Hon. Lyla Elliott: Are you a member of and potentially dangerous individuals. the Communist Party? (2) The processes through which the juntas The Hon. 0. N. B. OLIVER: No. If I used my keep themselves in power include outright passport I would not be allowed behind the iron and gross electoral frauds, crude physical curtain and if I did go behind the iron curtain I terror and personal blackmail, including would not be allowed to come out again. What I coercion and blackmail of alleged sexual am referring to now is the situation which prevails deviants. in the AUS which has brought about this change. (3) Whenever and wherever students get a If this situation continues we will need stronger fighting chance they vote overwhelmingly legislation. against the present structure of the AUS. In conclusion, I come back to the point that if May I say also that the disaster of the AUS travel anybody wishes to retain membership or increase followed this. , If members like to look to the membership of the AUS by offering improved government and, in particular at State facilities, its membership will prosper. The Governments, they will find the situation is as set student bodies to which I have referred are out in this article. It continues- accepting this challenge and believe they will be As for the state governments, the ALP successful in holding students on a voluntary ones cannot act without triggering off basis. I support the Bill. destructive internal brawls with communist THE HON. GRACE VAUGHAN (South-East colonists and their associates inside the ALP. Metropolitan) [10.07 p.m.): We have heard the The article concludes- most extraordinary statements made tonight by Academic leftists are neither more nor less the honourable member who has just resumed his honest than the rest of us. They are however seat. I thought we had got over the business of the more political, more systematic and communist bogey when a communist was seen consistent on public issue and, in a sense, under every rose bush. more "principled" and selfless. The Hon. 0. C. MacKinnon: No; it is getting They hang together and look after their worse. Even the moderate unions are being taken wounded ("solidarity"), and they are groping over. They are even getting into Parliament. persistently and remorselessly for levers of The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: One wonders political and ideological power and influence, whether it is the late night which we had last rather than for the bill. night which has caused these comments to be The left has, by and large, the brighter, the made. I could not believe by ears. However, I will bolder and the more dedicated people in endeavour to speak to the Bill, not about universities, people skilled in the ways of communists, fascists, nuts, or weirdos. or anything power and ideological influence, rather than else. in the art of material acquisition and this is The Hon. G. E. Masters: You did not do too why they are winning. It is as simple as that. badly last night; but you had a big gallery then. The reason I mention these factors is that over a The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: I will try to period of some 20 years I have examined and been talk about the Bill, because it is an iniquitous one; involved in these strategies; and by strategies I because it sets out to disrupt the law-abiding, mean the strategies of dominance by communism; normal functioning-of a fairly conservative body. Firstly, I wias trained in it, and then, secondly, I The Hill sets out to do this in a way which is full saw communism physically in action. I saw of the sort of nonsense the honourable member assassinations and terrorism and everything one who has just resumed his seat has been could possibly see. I saw communism operate postulating. from the passive phase to the active phase, then to I would like to point out to Mr Gordon Masters the counter-offensive phase when sometimes we who seems to be under some misapprehension picked up a few fellows and said, "Where are you about the voluntary nature of membership of the going to?" and they said, "To a political rally." Guild of Undergraduates of the University of They did not know it, but in fact they were facing Western Australia-a guild about which I can a military division. I am used to this type of speak with some authority-what -the true situation and I understand this method of situation is. I understand clauses are contained in 3238 3238[COUJNCIL] statutes relating to other tertiary institutions. The for the services and amenities and the honourable member will find in statute No. 20 of administrative costs of the guild, but one is not the University of Western Australia calendar for forced to pay to be affiliated with the AUS, 1977, which is the statute pertaining to the Guild because in fact one is not a member of the guild of Undergraduates- in the real sense. One is not a full member of the The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: Do you have a guild because one has said one does not want to copy of it there? belong to it and has given the Vice-Chancellor one's reasons and he has allowed The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Yes, I am one to opt out. reading from it. The Hon. 0. E. Masters: This legislation will overcome this problem. The H-on. G C. MacKinnon: Could you lend it to me afterwards? The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: There is no need for this legislation, because there is no The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: I will lend it problem. The facility exists already in this book.* to the honourable member if he promises not to disfigure it. The Hon. 6. E. Masters: You have suggested they The Hon. G. C. MacKinnon: I would not should not have to pay. dream of it. The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: The students will still have to pay their amenities and services The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: One has to be fee. careful when one lends these subversive books. They might get burnt, because members opposite The Hon. G. E. Masters: But they will not have might think they obtain something which will to pay the guild fee. threaten the establishment. We must be very The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Certainly not; careful about that. If we see communists under and they already do not have to pay it, because every rose bush, we might see book-burning the $2.80 is subtracted. fascists on the Government benches. The Hon. G. E. Masters: We talked about more The Hon. G. E. Masters: Do you still have that than $2.80. You are playing with words. little red book? The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Mr Deputy The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Yes. Does the President, it illustrates how little the Hon. Gordon honourable member want one? Masters understands the financial arrangements The Hon. 0. E. Masters: You are not quoting of the guild and the university. from it. I am disappointed. The Hon. D. W. Cooley: Abysmal ignorance. The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: I am sure The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: He shows Chairman Mao Tsetung would have something abysmal ignorance; that is right. This particular erudite to say on this. He usually manages to guild has been very efficient and has run its cover all statements. business very well. It is a big business. There are The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I would like it if 8 000 members of the Guild of Undergraduates of the honourable member referred to the Bill. the University of Western Australia. We all must admit the campus of the University of Western The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: I am Australia is a very beautiful one. It is very well referring to die Bill by quoting from University equipped with recreational and sporting facilities. statute No. 20 which concerns the Guild of Succeeding senates have acknowledged that the Undergraduates. No. 5 of that statute says- guild is responsible for handling the job in a very All undergraduate students enrolled for effective and efficient manner. any unit or part unit for a course for a The student services and guild fees paid in bachelor's degree shall be ordinary members Australian universities range as follows: from of the guild provided such a student may be $136 at ANU to $42 at Murdch, which is a very exempted by the Vice-Chancellor of all new university and caters only for 1 000 students; obligations of membership, but not from the next lowest sum is $60 at Deakin; and $66 at payment of the guild's subscription on the James Cook. The fee in Western Australia is $70 grounds of conscience or any other grounds which is $66 less than the fee at ANU and $58 approved by the Vice-Chancellor. less than the fee at Flinders, which is the next This is when the matter of hurting one's pocket highest. The fees then range down the scale. arises. If on a matter of principle one does not There are very few which are below $100. This want to belong to the guild, one may opt out, but university, through its Guild of Undergraduates, one must still pay the guild fees, less the $2.80 has been able to keep those fees down to a very that is paid to the AUS. In other words, one pays low level. Therefore, it can be seen that the [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977J123 3239 allegations which have been flying around that at the University of WA has not had a free hand the guild is irresponsible and inefficient are not on how it spends its money. well founded. The Hon. D. i. Wordsworth: Did the member One certainly could not call the Senate of the say they should not be able to opt out on University of Western Australia a radical body; it reasonable grounds? is fairly conservative. As a matter of fact, I am a The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: They should bit of a misfit myself because most of the people be able to, but on their own initiative. At present are very conservative politically. Some of my very the students are able to opt out of the guild. They good friends are conservative people polifically are able to pay their fees, less the $2.80 for the and many of them would be more familiar with AUS. However, the Government has seen fit to the arguments of business houses than they would interfere in the affairs which were operating very be with shaking their fists or protesting about efficiently and thoroughly over the years. interference by the Government in the Guild of The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: So, if a student Undergraduates. Those people have not been wants to j oin the guild and not the AUS, he is not shaking their fists physically, but they have expressed their great regret and annoyance at the able to? interference with the affairs of the university. The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: It is a very simple matter. By a majority vote, the students In July, this year, the senate having considered decided they wanted to affiliate with some other a letter to the vice-chancellor from the Minister Organisation and pay a capitation fee for each for Education, resolved that the Minister be informed as follows- member. The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: But the (i) that the long history of the Guild honourable member said that if a student opted there supports strongly the view that out he did not have to pay the $2.80. should be a single body to oversee the whole area of student involvement in the The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: If a student life of the University and that this body opts out he does not have to pay the capitation should always be in a position to part of the fee. Most people who have belonged to represent ail undergraduate students of sporting bodies and other organisations the University; understand the situation. (ii) that the Senate is strongly opposed to I would also like to quote a colleague of the any proposal to introduce legislation Government in Senator Carrick, who is the which would lead to a division or Minister for Education in the Federal narrowing of the Guild's present Government. Senator Carrick agrees with this responsibilities and which did not ensure decision, and he says that is what ought to that the Guild remains a truly happen. In commenting on the decision of the representative body; Liberal Party Western Australian State council, (iii) that in the light of (i) and (ii) above the in December, 1975, he said- Senate believes that- The cure must originate basically from the (a) the onus should remain on the members themselves. It is within the students student to request exemption from hands to rectify the matter. membership and that such I will quote from a letter sent by the acting exemption should not confer a vice-chancellor at the university at the time. financial advantage, albeit that When this move was first mooted the Minister for exemption should be granted on any Education (Mr P. V. Jones) was having some reasonable grounds; discussion with the guild, somewhat belatedly. (b) the Guild should continue to have Professor Boyle said- the responsibility for the It has been suggested to me that perhaps adminstration of the funds collected the AUS which has been given much through compulsory charges; publicity recently may have something to do (c) the scale of charges and the with the Government's decision. The guild distribution of funds over the reaffirmed its policy to affiliate with the Guild's activities should be AUS by a referendum of all students in 1916 determined, as at present, by the and it has always been open to a small group Senate after consideration of a of students to have the question put to the resolution of the Guild. test at any time. It will be seen that the Guild of Undergraduates The question can be put to the test at any time by 3240 3240COUNCIL] any 12 out oft8 000 members. I cannot for the life involvement by students in their own of me understand why the Government has organisations in the western world is said to be 2 interfered. I cannot understand why people sitting per cent. on the other side of the House-for many of The Hon. R. Hetherington- When I was elected whom I have the greatest respect-can tolerate as a student I was elected by 22 votes. this sort of Government intervention in a The Hon. D. J, Wordsworth: community organisation which is operating I am not effectively in a conservative way. The surprised! Government is asking for trouble. It is similar to The Hon. R. Hetherington: But, 1 was elected. the Electoral Act Amendment Bill to which we The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: The Hon. were speaking last night. People are being stung Fred McKenzie has reminded me of the deliberately. The Government is standing over the involvement of people in local government, a very people and telling them that they will do things a important area. Compulsory voting is not present certain way, whether it is voting or belonging to and we know how low is the percentage of voters student organisations. who actually vote, let alone the percentage who There is already a very conservative group of are en tit led to enrol and who do not. So, let us not* people on this campus. The people in other sneer at a 15 per cent vote because that is not too universities throughout the world are not so mild. bad. I would like to see the people on our university The point I am trying to make is that this campus a little more active. They are conducting legislation is unnecessary. The guild has been held their organisation and running their sporting in high esteem during the 65 years of its groups in a quiet way. They belong to the AUlS by existence, both by the community and by virtue of the fact that they held a referendum last succeeding university senates. year and the members decided they would The members of the guild are upset. They see a affiliate. possibility, if the present System is disturbed, of The Hon. M. McA leer: About 15 per cent an isolated group of radicals joining the guild and voted. becoming the active members. It is possible to The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: A very good have left-wing and right-wing factions continually argument for compulsory voting, which the Labor warring while the majority of students are left Party supports. out. The Hon. D. 3. Wordsworth: Only 61 per cent It is likely that students who do not take an wanted to join it. active part in the guild will take advantage of the The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: It was still a Opportunity to save th~e amount of money majority decision, and next week 12 members involved. No-one knows the amount of money could say they want another referendum. involved yet, but certainly serices and amenities charges will be somewhere in the vicinity of 80 The Hon. R. Hetherington; When a vote is per cent to 90 per cent of the total fee which will taken the majority is recognised, no matter how be paid. Certainly, Some People will opt out. They vote. many might have belonged to the AUS, for a year, and The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: It is not then decide that because they did not take part in possible to get a l00 per cent involvement in any any activities they would save some money. organisation. I would like to see it myself. However, they are still able to vote, which is fairly However, people do not become involved in rough. They are able to vote for the executive of community organisations and perhaps we should the organisation without belonging to it. By virtue do something about it. I always exhort people to of being a student at the university, one is made a take an interest in their organisations. However, voting member. It is almost like Alice in students are often struggling to keep up their Wonderland to be able to vote without being a studies and they do not have time to attend member. That is an unjust situation. Can community organisations and become involved. A members imagine any other situation which is 50 per cent vote when it is not compulsory, is not similar? I cannot. It would be similar to being bad. able to walk into a meeting and telling those The Hon. M. McAleer; The vote was 15 per present that because one is a citizen of the area, Cent. one should have a vote on decisions of that The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Research meeting. shows that with retard to student activities it is The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: One has to pay always dangerous to take the mean. The the service fee. [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977])24 3241

The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: The Minister necessary to have a guild of Students so that the does not seemn to understand the Bill at all. Is the Senate can be seen to represent not only the Minister trying to say that the students will not academic staff, the Government, and the outside have to pay a service fee? What the Bill is saying community, but also the students, who of course is that a student does not have to be a member of make up the bulk of the population of the the guild. This is what the Hon. Gordon Masters university. was carrying on about.' He said, "We will tell I am well aware that already Government these people they do not have to be members" members have made up their minds on this, as on The Hon. D. i. Wordsworth: I said in the other other issues. They have been directed about it, organisation you are referring to you don't have and that is the way they will vote. to pay the fees. You were giving an example. The H-on. G. E. Masters: It is in our policy. The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Of course one The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: We saw a does not have to pay the fee, but one does not very weak effort from the two Government vote. In this case a student would be paying the members who have spoken so far on this matter. fees for services and amenities he is using at the Obviously they have not investigated it but they University. have simply listened to the propaganda handed The Hon. D. J1.Wordsworth: That is right. out to them by the anti-student element in their The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: However, if party. one wants to be known as a member of the guild, The Hon. G. E. Masters: Rubbish! one would have to pay extra. However, by virtue The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Of course it of the fact that a person is a student at the university, he can go along and vote for the people is not rubbish. If the Hon. Gordon Masters had been here listening to some of the arguments I who will make the decisions about the money paid have been putting forward, he may not speak in in by the students who join the guild. What an extraordinary situation. This is the sort of thing such a derogatory manner about a body of people the Government is condoning. It is quite obvious which has conducted- that members opposite have not read the Bill but The IHon. G. E. Masters: 1 am talking in a have simply gone along blindly with what was put derogatory manner about the statements you are up by Cabinet. It is quite obvious that some making. members of the Cabinet do not know of it either The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: -a very because certainly Mr Wordsworth does not know efficient and effective course of action over 65 a great deal about it. years. It seems to me that Government members are It is tragic that the Government is attacking going along with what their leader has decided. the guild at the University of Western Australia He has a snout on the AUlS, and a snout on because it is unique. Maybe that 'is not very students generally, and so Government members important to the Hon. Gordon Masters, but have to go along with him. I find this an people in Western Australia are very proud of the extraordinary situation because Senator Carrick, Guild of Undergraduates And the way it is set up. the Federal Minister for Education, tells It is quite unique in the history of Australian Government members bow foolish they have been. universities. He commented on the decision made in 1975, and The he is really saying, "Now I have told them and Hon. R. Hetherington: Western put them wise, they will not be foolish enough to Australians in the east used to go around boasting indulge in this little bit of nastiness to students." about it- However, the Government has gone ahead and The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Some people introduced this legislation. It is a most who went before us in this place, and obviously reprehensible move, especially as Senator Carrick people who were a great deal wiser and more said- caring about the way the university was run and Student bodies are an integral part of the students organised- student life at Australian Universities and The H-on. W. R. Withers: Surely if they feel provide a wide range of services for their this way demonstrators would have turned up at members including food, welfare, social and the Parliament. Where are they? cultural activities, student and sporting The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: The framers representation. of the Act in 1911 showed remarkable foresight Usually these guilds are established under the when they established the Guild of legislation to set up a university because it is Undergraduates as part of the university. 3242 3242COUNCIL]

I have here a copy of a letter sent to the but we did not think it was necessary to do that to Minister for Education. This letter must-surely convince members of our arguments. have impressed him, and quite obviously it did The Hon. W. R. Withers: Were there any here because in his discussions with the various student last night? bodies the Minister for Education saw the reasonableness of what the students were saying. The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: We have such good However, it was seen that as soon as he went back arguments about the way the body has been operating for so long and so effectively. The guild to the Cabinet, he was told what he had to do. He would then return to the student bodies with a is very much appreciated *by the people who understand what it is doing, although it may much harder line. Again when the people started not talking to him he would realise the logic of what be appreciated by the people who are making they were saying. He would then scoot back to libellous statements about the guild members, Cabinet and then return to the students again their communist activities, etc. That is absolute with a harder line. nonsense. If members knew, as I do, many of these young people, they would know that they The people negotiating with him could see that are giving up a great deal of their time to operate be was amenable to their suggestions that there the guild. Several guild members are paid. For should be no interference with the guild, and example, the president takes a year off from his although it seemed that some mild amendment to studies and he is paid to run the guild. A few the Act would be satisfactory to the Minister for people work in the office and are paid for their Education, obviously it would not satisfy the work, but most of those involved in administration Premier and others in the Cabinet who were give their time freely and happily in order that the determined that this student-bashing would go on. guild should operate smoothly and that students The Hon. W. R. Withers: Where are the 8 000 will receive the benefit of their efficient students you spoke of who oppose this Bill? administration. The Hon. R. Hetherington: They were there The main idea of the guild is to provide delivering a petition not many months ago. recreational, cultural, and sporting activities. The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: These are That is the principal time-consuming part of its educated people. They publish a newspaper called operations. The Pelican and students and others can The Hon. R. Hetherington: Educational contribute to that. There was plenty of publicity activities -funding political clubs of all parties, in that newspaper, in fact, a whole issue was too, which is educational. devoted to the guild. There is a picture on the The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: There is a front page of this issue showing the guild building great deal that could be said about this measure, being buried and the caption says, "Government but I am afraid I cannot see the Government buries guild." accepting any of the logic that is being offered. It The Hon. W. R. Withers: Surely a few could has made up its mind that it will bash these have been interested. students. It is a great pity to see something that is The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: The students operating effectively being destroyed by petty have been here; they have demonstrated in front people; small-minded, petty-thinking people. The of this building and deputations have attended the guild is good and wholesome and it has proved Minister. itself over the years. The Hon. R. Hetherington: On the opening day In this House we are supposed to be keen about of Parliament. tradition and keen about things which have been The Hon. W. R. Withers: Was this last night? established and which have been working for a long time. And yet here we are attempting to The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: If we had destroy something that has been of great benefit known the honourable member felt this way, we to many of the people who have gone through could quite easily have asked the students to leave tertiary institutions in Western Australia. The their study and to come here to demonstrate. same thing applies of course to WAIT and the They are on study leave at the moment, but this Murdoch University because to a great extent could have been arranged had we known Mr their student bodies were established along the Withers wanted it. lines of the Guild of the University of Western The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: As you did last Australia. night. The Government has well and truly over- The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: We could reacted to some complaints from a noisy body of easily have had some sort of demonstration here, young reactionary conservatives who were not [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 324334 content with what they saw they had. These can't they? We will see how many objections young people were influenced perhaps by their there are. relatives or their parents' friends. Unfortunately The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: If Mr we still have the situation that most of the Masters wants to interject so much, it is a great students who attend the university come from pity that he did not stay in the Chamber to listen what might be called the upper classes. Certainly to what I had to say- these are the children of people who are The Hon. G. E. Masters: I will read it considered to be advantaged on the socio- tomorrow. economnic ladder. The probability of the children of disadvantaged people going to university is very The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: -about the low indeed in this day and age. Figures can be fact that people are unlikely to be joining because produced to show this. So in the main the students they will be saving money by not doing so. at the university will not grow up to vote for the It is a great pity that we cannot carry on as Labor Party, although some of the cleverer ones previously, rather than allowing such pettifogging will. ideas to come into conflict with what is operating quite successfully. The H-on. W. R. Withers: That is a most inaccurate statement. Of course, I am wasting my time because the Government has already given members in this The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Members place their marching orders as to what they must opposite will have many of these students in their do with this Bill. pockets anyway because they want to perpetuate their advantaged way of life. I am appealing now The Hon. G. E. Masters: It is our policy. because I believe it is good for the country to have The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: The young people administering an autonomous body probability that Mr Gorden Masters is always where they can make decisions and criticise the looking at-namely, crossing the floor and establishment. standing beside my chair during a vote-is not likely to happen on this occasion because he has Let us look at what is contained in the Bill. his instructions as to the way he must vote. Section 28 of the parent Act relates to conditions Therefore, he is overreacting defensively, like his of membership of the guild. It reads- colleagues, saying, "Of course we arejustified in Subject to the conditions of membership doing this" in an attempt to rationalist what prescribed by Statute, all undergraduate essentially is irrational behaviour and, an students of the University shall be members unwarranted intrusion into a very highly of the Guild. respected field. That takes up just three lines, and yet this Bill The Hon. G. E. Masters: Time will tell. They will turn that section into two pages. These are will get the choice now. just words telling the students what to do. It is The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: I doubt Government intervention in a private whether the guild and associations will be able to organisation; Government interference with be effective bodies in the future. I believe that people's rights. only those people who are interested in doing a bit The Hon. G. E. Masters: Rubbish! of stirring or who genuinely wish to see the bodies The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: This is running well will join. I cannot emphasise too Government standover tactics in regard to people strongly how I oppose this Bill; certainly the who are doing a really good job. Opposition is implacably opposed to it. The Hon. R. Hetherington: It is not rubbish at THE IHON. MI. NIcALEER (Upper West) all. [10.46 p.rn.]: Mr President, the hour is late and I am sure that if I went on at length I would not The Hon. G. E. Masters: What about free contribute very much to the debate. However, I choice? wish to make one or two comments relating to The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Mr Masters what was said by speakers preceding me. is furious because these guilds have shown they I very much hope the Hon. Grace Vaughan is can do an effective job in a complex situation. wrong in her prognostications of the future of the Government members get very confused with Guild of Undergraduates of the University of WA their suspicions about communists hiding behind as a result of the introduction of this legislation. rose bushes. It is a pity that the Government has The guild will still administer the funds at its seen fit, despite all the objections- disposal for student amenities. Certainly, if the The Hon. G. E. Masters: Well they can all join body is no longer interested in administering the 3244 3244[COUNCIL] funds, or is not responsible for this area, it would make provision for the payment or moneys to be most unacceptable to me, and I am sure, to the these associations, including the guild. majority of students. What-is rather strange is the level of amenities. The Bill does not relate only to the Guild of The responsibility for administration of these Undergraduates; as the Hon. Grace Vaughan funds will not be taken away from the guild. The briefly mentioned, it relates also to the guild has a very large commitment to meet, associations at Murdoch University, the Western Murdoch University and WAIT practically Australian Institute of Technology and, to a lesser nothing, and the teachers' colleges very little degree, the teachers training colleges. These lesser indeed. As a result, the other associations need far associations have not been referred to at all by less funds than the guild. previous speakers. The fact is that all these In conclusion, I simply say that I support the institutions vary in their statutes and Bill. I do not believe it infringes the rights of constitutions. students or of the institutions. There is no reason The main purpose of the Bill, which has been at all that the guild and student bodies should not reiterated many times, is to make membership of flourish and take pride in what they are doing. the student bodies voluntary. It is not the same thing to say that because their charter contains an THE HON. R. F. CLAUGHTON (North opt-out clause, that constitutes voluntary Metropolitan) [10.54 p.m.]: Last night we had membership. We believe, as the Hon. Gordon the "Re-elect Ridge" Bill and tonight we have the Masters said, that the bodies should be voluntary. "Kill the AUS" legislation. Just as the basic I am not sure whether the guild has an opt-out purpose of the Electoral Act Amendment Bill was clause in its charter; however, if I remember to achieve the Government's will, so this Bill is an rightly, the associations at the teachers' training attempt by the Government to attack the colleges do not have such a clause; there is simply Australian Union of Students. This situation no choice and the students' academic Course is arose because a small group of malcontents at the tied to membership of the association. This seems university-members or supporters of the Liberal to be a far greater interference with students' Party-were not able to obtain their will by using rights than simply making membership voluntary. the democratic processes available to them at that institution. They prevailed upon the Government The Hon. R. Hetherington had a great deal to to do the job for them, and that is the question say about interfering with autonomous with which we are now dealing. It is one of the institutions. However, I do not regard this reasons members on our side oppose this legislation as interfering with their autonomy. It legislation. will not prevent students who wish to belong to these guilds or associations from jumping up and We oppose it also because it will damage the down-as he put it-over what they wish to. On efficiency of properly functioning bodies which the other hand, if a student is obliged to belong to have not really been a cause of any concern to the such an association and in fact he is not permitted community or of anxiety to the administrative to study without being a member, there is a very bodies of the institutions at which they are serious breach of academic freedom involved. I established. would have thought that academic freedom would I think it should be remembered that the be very much favoured by the Hon. R. Statutes as they are now written have been Hetherington. approved by the governing bodies of those When the guild first beard about the proposed institutions. It is recognised that these are changes, it was greatly concerned because of its essentially conservative bodies; certainly, they are extensive financial commitments. Of recent times, not groups which are dominated by the politics of the associations at the teachers' colleges, my party. The people who have been on these Murdoch University, and, to Some extent, WAIT senates and councils have arrived at the decision have had money allocated to them by the that in order for these student bodies to function Government. However, it is very likely that in the effectively, it was necessary that a fee should be past, the guild at the University of WA undertook collected from all students, because all students the responsibility of providing facilities which now benefited from the associations. are provided at modern institutions by the The reasoning advanced by the Minister, Government and in doing so it has had to borrow assisted by his back-bench colleagues, in support money and assume financial commitments. of this change in the collection of fees seems most Therefore, it would have been irresponsible for odd. We will have a situation where these the Government-in fact, impossible-not to facilities will be managed by the voluntary [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977J124 3245 services of members of the guild. They will be It is the Minister rather than anyone else who is unpaid for doing this job. being misleading. It is he who is creating If it came to a situation where there was a lack confusion among the public and students. of interest on the part of students in becoming I would like to give some examples of this. In members of the guild, the people doing the his letter to the editor the Minister said the administrative work would be seen to be put upon Pelican was giviing a confused and misleading by other members of the student body who were view. He went on to say- not prepared to accept their responsibilities. I It is completely fallacious for Miss Roe believe this would result in a deterioration of the and others to suggest that the Government quality of management of the associations; people proposes to take the control of student guilds would be hard pressed to carry out these tasks. away from students; indeed, I have publicly Students simply would not put themselves indicated and written that student guilds forward to undertake these tasks white other should be organised for, and administered by, students were loafing on them. students. I believe it is natural enough that a student who Further on he said- is not required to pay a fee of, say, $10 will prefer to keep that money for his own use; because he The basis of the Government's proposals is does not have to pay it, he will not pay it. He will that membership of student guilds at tertiary realise the facilities will still be there; it will institutions should be voluntary and that any require no effort on his part to continue the student who chooses not to enrol in a student operation of the facilities, so why should he pay? guild should not be penalised for not joining, That is w&here the injustice upon the more and should not suffer loss of student status responsible students will occur as a result or this because of such a decision. legislation. Of course, we have seen that the statutes already The provision in the existing Statute is there for provide for voluntary membership. As to taking people to opt out if they wish to do so but they away control of the student body, the have to go along and give a reason. It should not Government's proposal is that all students be sufficient reason for them to say they do not whether members or not are entitled to vote. want to pay because they do not want to carry the Instead of those who are actually members of the financial responsibility. But that will be all that is guild electing their own leadership it is left to a necessary under this piece of legislation. wider group who may in fact have no interest in I do not think the Government has really given the guild. Very clearly it could happen that the any sufficient reason in any statement so far that control of the guild could be taken away from students should be encouraged to dodge their members of that body. If only the members of the responsibilities, yet that is what the Government guild were permitted to vote they might select is doing. The Government is encouraging people someone quite different. In the same letter the not to accept responsibility yet these are the Minister said- people we look to to be leaders in the community Similarly I have made it quite clear that and who should be prepared to accept the university administration will not be responsibility. However, this is par for the course entitled to retain student funds subscribed for for members of the Liberal Party who do not wish student purposes. to accept responsibility for the wider concerns of If one reads the legislation one would find that is the community. not the case at all. I do not imagine the senate In his public statements the Minister for would not convey the funds to the guild, but if we Education has accused people of being misleading look at the Bill we see under clause 7(d) (7) that and creating confusion. In a letter to the editor of notwithstanding subsection (6) of section 20 the The West Australian the Minister said, in part- senate may transmit the whole or part of moneys The letter-from Sandra Roe, editor of the referred to it. I repeat that the senate may Pelican, University of WA (July 27), is a transmit the whole or part of the moneys. They do further example of the misleading not have to. information relating to the Government's The Minister is being misleading in saying that proposal on membership of student the administration would not be entitled to retain organisations at tertiary institutions, which is student funds because the Bill says it may. That is being spread by some of those associated the story of this legislation all the way through. In either with the guild of undergraduates or a statement reported in the Daily News of the 3rd the university. August, the Minister is reported as saying- 3246 3246[COUNCIL]

Student groups will still be free to give accusing the Labor Party of taking away the donations to outside bodies and liberties of individuals and ranting on about organisations. socialism. His ideas of socialism were imbibed Anyone reading that would take it at face value years ago and he has not advanced on them. that these student organisations will still be free However, he is not protesting about the attacks on to make gifts to outside bodies, but if we read this freedoms and liberties he pretends to support. Bill we see they cannot. I am disappointed in members opposite who are Further down in the Minister's statement we not living up to the original meaning of their find that he is really twisting the situation and party's name. They have transgressed from the saying something completely to the contrary. The term of "liberal"-! use a smnalll"I" in this case. statement continues- We on this side are proud of our philosophy of *Mr Jones says contributions to outside being democratic socialists; we believe a change bodies should "be as a result of a personal should be brought about by the free will of people commitment of the student involved." exercising their rights through the accepted democratic process. We are That is very different from the bodies and drifting far from that organisations making donations. If it is agreed principle with this legislation. that a donation or gift should be made to an I hope that' members opposite will have a outside body then the amounts have to be change of heart and accept that there must be individually contributed by the students. It is not differences in the community; there must be really coming from the organisation; it is coming different points of view if we are to progress. If directly from the students concerned. If that is not we squash differing opinions as this Hill attempts a misleading and confusing statement I would like to do the community stultifies and decays. It to know what is. inflames community revolt and neither of those That is what the Government has attempted to situations would be wanted by my political do all the way through; it has tried to con the opponents. public and the students to say something is For that reason I hope they will have a change happening, and flower the argument so criticism of heart about this legislation and think again of the Government would be dispersed. about the attacks they are making on a particular I could go on for some time but other speakers group in this way. There must be liberty and open have covered the subject extremely well. Mr expression in a democracy and it should be our Hetherington and Mrs Vaughan have given the lie role to see that it remains. to what jhe Government says it is attempting to THE HION. D. J. WORDSWORTH do and it is another example of what we have (South-Minister for Transport) come to expect from this Government.- [11.14 p.m.]: I think it is disappointing that at times some of this We have been presented with a series of debate has deteriorated to the stage where people measures that bit by bit chip away at what we have been accused of student bashing and trying have accepted as freedoms in thiscountry. I can to break the student union, etc. It is disappointing imagine that Sir David Brand would toss in his indeed and hardly the sort of standard we should bed at night when he considers legislation such as be adopting when debating matters concerning this. Certainly the founders of the University of universities and tertiary institutions. Western Australia would be turning in their graves to think that these attacks on our liberties The IHon. Bob Hetherington started off by are taking place in this State. Sir Winthrop slating the objections of his party were on two Hackett would not have countenanced this sort of grounds. Firstly he referred to the interference of thing in his day. The university was established civil liberties of the institutions and their for the purpose of encouraging wide-ranging autonomy, and secondly he referred' to the exploration of ideas and to stimulate people into legislation itself and how it had been drafted. thinking and exploring the liberal arts and At the beginning of his speech he said that sciences as they were commonly called in those undoubtedly there will be a university guild and days. that such students had two things in common. He I would have hoped for a better response from said that the students were human beings and that members opposite, some of whom have a genuine they were at the university to be educated. I concern for democracy, but they continue to sit wholeheartedly agree with that and I hope that he silently and see a serious change take place in the will remember this and, at a later stage, will not accepted beliefs of our community. I know my disagree with our amendment which stipulates province colleague has often gone into print that only students should belong to the guild. (Wednesday, 9th November, 1977J124 3247

The Hon. R. Hetherington: I will disagree with The Hon. G. E. Masters: You make some awful that and I will give my reasons. Statements. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: If he does The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: We heard disagree, he should not have said that one of the All sorts of things about social democrats and the common aspects is that the students are there to rights and freedoms of the individual. However, be educated. one of the objects of the legislation is to ensure The honourable member seemed to come out that certain rights of the individual at the with some strange philosophies which I found a universities are maintained and that the students little hard to associate with the legislation. One are not necessarily tied up with the activities thing he said was that autonomous bodies should which might be considered by many to be the hands which feed irresponsible. I am referring to the off-campus be seen to be able to bite activities them because, after all, this was a mark of which have taken place at times, not necessarily in Western Australia, but in freedom. I really wonder whether the general connection with the body with which the guild is public associate that sort of quotation with the affiliated. university. The average student at the university wishes to The Hon. R. Hetherington: I was not tal1king to study and not become involved in these matters. the general public, but to you. That is probably why there was such a poor The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORkTH: Another response on the question of affiliation with the statement he made was that research should be AUS. Only 15 per cent voted and then only some controlled by those who carry out the research. 60-odd per cent of that 15 per cent wantid the That was another odd quotation. Perhaps I might university to be affiliated. That highlights one of not be able to quote exactly what he said, but not the fundamental freedoms which is in the having spent any time in the guild perhaps I know legislation. more about research than the guild and realise I reiterate that we do not wish to interfere with that it would be a foolish thing if all research the universities if we consider they are being run were- in a desirable manner. However, one matter has Seve ral members interjected. been raised. If a student was not a member of a The PRESIDENT: Order! . -guild he would not be given an opportunity to sit for examinations. I am sure the public disagrees The Hon. D. J1.WORDSWORTH: -based on with that, and that is one of the reasons for the the desires of those who carried out the research introduction of she legislation. Undoubtedly there rather than on the needs of the public. is a strong feeling on the part of the -university The Hon. R. Hetherington: I am suggesting itself and it was with good reason that we wrote that pure research has no obvious social vilue. into our policy provision to give a student freedom The Hon. D. J1.WORDSWORTH: I am quite to join a university guild. This is a fundamental sure that the public are quite happy to allow the right. university to be an autonomous body provided I would like to remind members that in this they know it is running according to their desires Parliament we had a petition from students who and p hilosophies.. did not wish to be associated with the AUS. So it The Hon. R. F. Claughton: You do not think cannot be said that we have not been presented the senate is a responsible body? with evidence on this aspect. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTrH: I am not Several members interjected. saying that. I was going to point out that I think The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: There the general public have a right to know what is seems to be some confusion about the rights of the going on in the universities in view of the fact that individual and whether because 51 per cent of a a large amount of the tax they pay is used by the group of people want to do something it has to be universities. I do not think that these iflstitutioins done, regardless of- the effect on individual can be altogether holy and apart from the public. liberties. and not be interfered with in any way. After all The Hon. R. F. Claughton: That is what you they were established by Acts of Parliament and I believe here. You have the majority. believe the Parliament has a right to change the The Hon. D. J1. WORDSWORTH: That is Acts if it so desires. That is exactly what we are about all one can associate with this business, doing now. which is about whether students should be forced The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Certainly you have to associate with AUS just because 15 per cecnt a right to interfere; that is your philsophy. voted at a referendum and 60 per cent of the 15 3248 3248[COUNCIL] per cent voted in favour of it. We are told 2 per undesirable campus activities we have seen in the cent is a good vote on the university campus. past on the part of the AUS. Therefore should we force students to pay I commend the legislation to the House. university fees for all campus activities? Question put and a division taken with the The Hon. R. Hetherington: That is fair enough. following result- The activists are usually a small group. Most students, as you said yourself, are busy studying. 'as 18 Hon. G. W. Berry Hon. 0. N. B.Oliver The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: That is Hon. V.J. Ferry Hon. W. M. Piesse quite right. Hon. H. W. Gayfer Hon. ft. G. Pike Hon. T. Knight Hon, 1.G. Pratt Perhaps one other point should be made. I Hon. A. A. Lewis Hon. J. C. Tozer think it should be made abundantly clear to those Hon. G. C. MacKinnon Hon. ft. J. L. Williams organisations-whether it be the Senate of the Hon. M. McAleer Hon. W. R. Withers Hun. 1.6G. Medcalf Hon., D. J. Wordsworth University of Western Australia or any Hon. N. F. Moore Hon. G. E. Masters other-which may be tempted to pay the AUS (Teller) fees from the services and amenities fee that that 3es 7 is not the intention of this legislation. Hon, 0. W. Cooley Hon. F. E.McKenzie Hon. 0. K. Dans Hon. Grace Vaughan I assure members that we on this side of the Hon. Lyla Etliott Hon. R. F.Claughton House are not wishing to university-bash and see Hon. Rt. Hetherington (Teller) the destruction of the university guilds; far to the F'airs Ayes Noes contrary. Hon. N.' McNeill Hon, Rt.H. S.Stubbs The PRESIDENT: Order! I have previously Hon. T. McNeil Hon. ft. T. Leeson mentioned that the reading of newspapers in the Quest ion thus passed. House is out of order, and I ask members to Bill read a second time. refrain from doing so. The Minister for Transport. In Committee The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: There is The Deputy Chairman of Committees (the very good reason why all students, whether or not Hon. R. J. L. Williams) in the Chair; the Hon. D. they choose to become guild members, should J. Wordsworth (Minister for Transport) in charge have a vote in elections to the guild. After all, as of the Bill. students they are responsible for the debts which Clauses 1 to 3 put and passed. the guild builds up in the name of the students. Clause 4: Section 28 a mended- We have the amenities fee to try to cover the The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I move an previous debts for the building of the facilities. So amendment- I believe it'is only right and fair that if all students, regardless of whether they join the Page 2, line 24-Delete the passage "'(b) guild, have to pay that amenities fee they should persons who are not students" have some control over who sets the fees which May I just say for the information of the they are forced to pay and commits them to the Committee that it is my intention to deal with the various borrowings to develop the facilities on the first five amendments; then if the Committee campus. accepts my amendments, we will automatically The Hon. R. Hetherington: Let them elect an continue with the amendments to the other advisory committee to consult with the guild. clauses. However, if the Committee rejects my amendments, I will not pursue the others. If I The Hon. D. 3. WORDSWORTH: I think all members on this tide of the House, as well as sometimes stray to another institution from the one with which we are dealing, I hope that the those on the other side, are proud of the university Chair will be lenient. and the various tertiary facilities. The Opposition has no mortgage on that. My wife used to be a My amendment would remove the provision member of the guild council of the University of that people who are not students shall not be Western Australia at the time we are told it was eligible to be members of the guild. I am aware so good, and I am often reminded of it by her. that the Minister mentioned this in his reply to Most people become very nostalgic about their the second reading debate, but the Bill as it stands years at the university. I can assure members it is will have the effect of excluding nonstudents from not our desire to university-bash or student-bash. membership of the guild. Many of us have children at university and we This provision is probably more important in wish to ensure they have some basic freedoms and regard to Murdoch University than it is to the do not have to associate with some of the University of Western Australia. Murdoch [Wednesday, 9th November, 1917] 343249

University is carrying out a kind of experiment. It gallery is not full tonight and one of the reasons has made specific provision in its rules for staff for that is that it is now the students' "swat-vac." members to be eligible for membership of the time. The students are just about to begin their. guild. Murdoch University wants a guild of staff exams. Also, the guild is newly elected, and it is and students; in other words, a community of just starting to feel its feet. We should not scholars very much in the medieval sense. extrapolate anything from that. I would be sorry Whether or not we like this idea, I believe it is to see them here in fact. Some students have a worth while to let Murdoch University carry out year's work to catch up with, and others just have this experiment and to see what happens. to put in the final touches-I have examined both A colleague of mine in another place, the kinds. member for Gosriells, has pointed out that this I would like to appeal to the Minister to accept provision will rob him of his honorary life the amendment. If the amendment is passed, we membership of a student guild. Helis no longer a will benefit particularly the Murdoch University, student, but he feels that the honour of an and some members of the Parliament of Western honorary life membership is worth retaining. Australia will receive some fringe benefits.. Therefore, I believe we should delete this passage The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I believe and allow the guilds to grant membership to Mr Hetherington has touched upon the reason for people other than students. the inclusion of this provision. He indicated that I realise that this action can give rise to other in some areas the academics do Start to problems. I have seen here and at the University participate within the guild itself. I believe there of Adelaide that some members of the academic is a place for old student associations or staff at times try to manipulate students and to graduates' associations, but I do not think this has use them for their own particular ends. This does to be spelt out in the Act. The intention of the not happen very often, and such action is not very legislation is quite obvious and I do not think the successful for very long. It is a habit I have deletion of the passage referred to will achieve always deplored. When I was a member of the what Mr H-etherington is after, for it will in effect university staff, I never thought I should join change the whole intent of the legislation. officiously in student politics. I have never refused The Hon. R. HETH-ERINGTON: If we retain to advise a student of any political persuasion the provisions, the legislation certainly will not when I was approached with a problem. It is time achieve the intent of the Minister either, because some academics grew up; they should stop trying unfortunately academics at the university do to remain students. However, academics such as* manage to influence students, and they do this this are in the minority. behind the scenes anyway. I could tell members For the information of members, I would like to now who are the people influencing the students refer to a statement made by the HaIn. Neil Oliver to act against this Bill, but I will not do that when he said that the new president of the guild because it would be misusing parliamentary was undecided about. this provision. That privilege. If I looked for them, I could find people statement was not correct. I was going to say it who are influencing students the other way. was untrue, but I am not suggesting anything At the University of Adelaide I have seen deliberate on the part of the member. It is just people of different political persuasions doing the that he made a mistake. The Daily News of the same thing. I believe the retention of this 2nd November quotes Mr Grace as saying- provision will harm the experimentation at We still do not understand why the Murdoch University and the good relationships legislation is there in the first place. We there. It will no longer be up to the guilds to already have an'- exemption clause for decide whether they want people who are not students who opt out of membership. students but who are interested in education. So I He went on to say that the '-Bill is full of appeal once more to the Minister to accept my contradictions and the guild would-be fighting to amendment. have these changed. He said he also wanted to see The Ron. R. F. CLAUGHTON: It would give amendments. some weight to the Minister's reply if the request I have been informed by a new member of the for this change had come from the governing studeht guild that Mr Grace is anxious to see bodies of the institutions, but, of course, that is amendments to this Bill. He is not at all unclear not what happened. Those governing bodies have in his opinion; he is against the Bill. At the very been opposed to the legislation. least he would like to see it amended. I would also The Hon. 0. N. B. Oliver: How can you make like to let honourable gentlemen know that the a sweeping genera lised statement like that? 3250 3250[COUNCIL]

The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: If the .Government has not thought about this. This sort honourable member were more aware he would of thing can be resolved simply by removing the know whether the governing bodies want to words in question. change., Having regard for the way the The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: The clause institutions are governed, if they wanted a change kceeps the control of the student guild with the they would ask the Government to table some students, and there is nothing wrong with that. amendments to the Statute. The honourable member pointed out that under The statutes of these bodies have the same the statute the guild can have associate members; force as law; they are like Acts of Parliament. and Mr Hetherington said that a member of The only difference is that they do not go through Parliament says that as a result of this Bill he will the process that we have here. not be able to be a member of a guild, which It is the right-wing extremists that we know shows he was able to participate in this activity. about who are responsible for bringing forward .1Iam not complaining thAt there are no students this provision, which is not designed to improve in the gallery, but it is interesting to note that no these institutions but to mould them in a way of letters of complaint have been received about the which the Government approves. The Minister clause. It seems Mr H-etherington has a mortgage cannot claim that he has any authority or on the ears of the students. approval from the institutions to include this The IHon. R. Hetherington: I do talk to them. provision in the Bill. I do not think the purpose The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: When the right-wing elements in his party wish to introducing the Bill the Minister said discussions achieve will be affected if these words are had been held with representatives of the removed. authorities associated with the various tertiary If the aim is to get at the AUS, that will be institutions to ensure that the intentions of the achieved by the cutback of funds. Why destroy Government were understood and in order that the philosophy of an institution such as Murdoch, the Government might be aware of the financial which is trying to do something different and to aspects and present management arrangements of develop a concept of the way in which a university the student bodies. should be managed, simply to achieve the narrow- The Minister said the students have not minded purpose of a small group within the protested. However, they have had more serious Liberal Party? Surely we do not have to go along considerations to put forward-things that are with people of that sort. Surely in this place we much more vital to the continued well-being of should be sensible and reasonable and not assess the guild. This is merely a minor m~atter, and that the matter in that fashion. is really the case we are making. The amendment, This amendment will not damage what the will not affect what the Government seeks to Government wishes to achieve. Section 38(4) (c) achieve. The Minister has not really presented an of the statute of the University of Western argument in favour of the provision, If he wants Australia states that the guild may by regulation to ensure that students retain control of the prescribe conditions upon which persons other student bodies, let us do away with this Bill than members may be admitted to associate because at present all students are members and memberships, associateships, and honorary life there is no way there will be sufficient associate associateships. Will all those categories of people members to swamp the student members. I ask be denied continued association with the guild the Minister to give favourable consideration to because of this provision? I do not know hoW our request. many people are involved or what value they The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I wish the contribute to the university; and I doubt whether Minister would not twist my words around. I did the Government knows. Probably it has not even give the example of Bob Pearce, a person who has thought about it. been a member and an officer of the student guild There are many reasons that organisations may for many years, and who has given long and wish to bestow such privileges upon people. The valuable service to the guild. He is well thought Minister is probably a member of a number of of, and has been made a life member of the guild. clubs, and he would know they have similar It seems to me this Bill could prevent him being a provisions. A sporting club would have similar life member. provisions to enable visiting sportsmen to make I was not suggesting that if he remained a life use of its facilities. Is this the sort of thing which member he would be able to manipulate the guild will be affected? I do not think the Minister will or control it. That is nonsense; he has more be able to answer me because I am sure the important things to do. I am suggesting there is a [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 353251 whole range of people whom the students want to not agree to this amendment. Clause 2, in part, have as associate members. states- The students at the Murdoch University want (2d) Any student (whether a member of staff on the guild, and that is a good thing. In the the Guild or not) may vote at any election same way, the University of Papua New Guinea held to fill a vacancy in the office of the has set up a staff-students club and bar where President of the Guild or the office of a staff and students mix, and this is a Fine example member of the Council of thc Guild or any of staff-student and racial harmony. This other elective office in the administration of amendment does nothing to destroy any of the the Guild, but a person shall not hold any intentions of the Bill. office mentioned in this subsection unless he If it is not there, the students will continue to is a member of the Guild. run things; al% the bogeys can be handled quite That means a per-son who is not a member of' the well by the student body-even the bogey of the guild can vote for a position on the guild. I do not academic staff, because they do not frighten know of any organ isation anywhere, whether it be students terribly much, and can be dealt with. I right-wing, left-wing, or whatever else, which suppose the Minister is not going to accept my would tolerate such a situation, and I do not think amendment. However, I just do not like it when the Minister explained the rationale behind the he twists my 6wn arguments against me in a way Government's intention in this regard. The I find quite unacceptable. proposal seems hardly to be logical, and I believe Amendment put and a division taken with the the Committee should accept the amendment following result- moved by Mr Hetherington. No organisation would tolerate such a situation. Ayes 7 I-on. D).W. Cooley I-on. F. E.McKenzie The Hon. 0. N. B. Oliver: Yes they would. I-on. D. K. Dans Hon. Grace Vaughan Hon. Lyla Elliott H-on. R. F.Claughton The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: Would the Liberal Hon. R. Hetherington (Teller) Party support such a proposition? Noes 17 The I-on. 0. N. B. Oliver: It has all been Hon. G.W. Berry Hon. 0. N. D.Oliver explained. I-on. V.J. Ferry Hon. W. M. Piesse Hon. H. W.Gayfer Hon. R.G. Pike The Hon. D. W. COO LEY: Mr Oliver is a very Hon. T. Knight Hon. 1.G. Pratt erudite person and he knows how these things Hon. A.A. Lewis Hon. J1.C. Tozer Hon. G.C. MvacKinnon Hon. W. R. Withers work. However, I am at a loss to understand why Hon. M. McAleer H-on. D. J.Wordsworth a person who is not a member of the guild should Hon. 1.0G. Medcalf Hon. G. E. Masters have the right to vote an officer into that Hon. N. F. Moore (Teller) association. He pays no fees to the association, Pairs Ayes Noes but will have this right. Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs Hon. N. McNeill I know there are right-wing people in the Hon. R. T. Leeson Hon. T. McNeil Liberal Party who will support this sort of Amendment thus negatived. proposal. In fact, they think this sort of situation The Hon. R. HETH-ERINGTON: I move an should apply in the trade union movement, where amendment- some people expect trade union members to battle Page 3, lines 10 and Il-Deete the for improved wages and conditions without paying one penny piece towards the organisation's costs in passage "(whether a member of the Guild or winning the conditions for them. This is a not)", and substitute the following- preposterous proposal; but at least if a person does who has indicated ,at the time of not belong to a union, he does not get a vote. The enrolment that he wishes to be a Government has not got onto that one yet, but it member'of the Guild and has paid the may, later. I do not think this is a reasonable requisite fee. proposition, and I urge the Committee to support I canvassed- this poinf -very heafly- dtiring the the amendment. second reading debate and I do not think there is The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: The any point in taking up the time of the Committee. Government really is deluding itself in this My feelings on the matter are quite clear and I matter. It is saying that because students must have no doubt the Government's feelings also are pay an amount which allows them to use facilities quite clear. So, as far as I am concerned, the at the university it gives them some sort of sooner we get the vote over, the better. membership of the guild. However, that is not so. The H-on. D. W. COOLEY: There would be If a person wants to be a member of the guild he something wrong with the Government -if it did must pay a fee to belong to it. One would assume 3252 3252[COUNCIL] that anyone who does not pay a fee has no rights measure whereby people who do not pay for rights in that organisation. The body of students who will be permitted to exercise. them. choose-to take on that burden and responsibility, The Hon. 0. N. B. Oliver: They do. and pay a fee and thus acquire the right to vote and participate in the affairs of the association The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: They do not. Students who pay only the services should not be freeloaded upon by those who are and amenities responsible to pay the fees and fee do not pay the fee to join the guild. The not sufficiently services take any part in the day-to-day running of the and amenities fee gives them the right to association. use the facilities, and that is all. That amount that they pay by way of a services The Hon. A. A. Lewis: It is too early in the morning. Your blood and amenities fee accords them the right to use pressure is going up. the facilities, and nothing further. What Mr The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: My blood Cooley was saying is quite correct; nowhere would pressure can stand it. I expict Mr Lewis to be we find somebody who does not pay acquiring a evasive. right of this nature. The argument used by the The Hon. A. A. Lewis: I am not being evasive. Minister is quite fallacious and 1 would have I am looking after the honourable member's hoped that when the matter was brought up in health. their party room members opposite would have The H-on. R. F. CLAUGHTON: I can argued against it, laughed -it out of the room, and understand the member's concern that I should be not tolerated it. It is still not too late for members waxing a little strong with regard to this matter opposite to change their minds but I have no because I think it is the sort of proposition that we doubt we will see them lined up and behaving in in this Chamber should feel strongly about and the disciplined way we are so used to seeing them should strongly oppose. People of conscience behave. should be shrinking back in their seats and 1 can Mr Pratt, Mr Moore, Mr Pike, and Mr Lewis see some members opposite shrinking back while claimed to be respecters of people's, rights but Others are smirking with glee because they see they trample all over them. Does Mr Lewis have a themselves as achieving a magnificent victory. I right to vote when he does not pay? strongly oppose the proposition contained in the Mr Lewis interjected. Bill and support the amendment moved by Mr The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: The member Hetherington. cannot name one organisation but he still wants to The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I have poke his nose in and interfere where he has no explained, and I shall explain again, that if the right to interfere. I can imagine he considers students do not have to pay a services and doing this with great joy. amenities fee I would agree with honourable The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (The Hon. R. J. members opposite. But they are forced to pay a L. Williams): Would the member please address fee regardless of whether or not they are members himbself to the Bill. of the guild. -For that reason they should have a say in who builds up the debts and what fee they The Hon. A. A. Lewis: You are addressing have to pay as an amenities fee. yourself to me. The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: That is a The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: I was using completely fallacious argument because buildings Mr Lewis as an example of a person who would have nothing to do with this matter. The clause be very keen to take advantage of rights for which talks about electing people to office in the guild he does not pay. I have not seen any other and we are being told that because they pay a fee members on their feet trying to defend what the they are members. But the writing in the clause Government is doing and I can imagine many of "says that they -are not members. The clause reads them are shrinking back in their seats. in part- The Hon. A. A. Lewis: At the moment we have Any student (whether a member of the nothing to defend. Guild or not) may vote at any election held Several members interjected. to fill a vacancy- The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order! These Members opposite say that whether or not they interjections will cease. The member will address are members of the g'iild they are allowed to vote the Chair and will speak to the amendment I have in an election. We are breaking completely new before me which is to delete the passage. ground here. If I did not pay my fees to the The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: People of Commonwealth Parliamentary Association would conscience certainly would not support this sort of members of this House permit me to vote in that [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 325335

Organisation? Of course they would not, and The Hon. Grace Vaughan: What has that to do nowhiere in organised society would people who with voting in the guild? are not members of an organisation be permitted The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: The Hon. Grace to vote people into of flee. Vaughan knows more about the matter than 1 do I simply cannot believe that people of the although she did not explain it to us, but I intelligence and understanding of members understand that the reason students have to pay opposite would propose sucti a proposition an amenities fee is that they have to pay for the because it does not apply in any other part of our capital improvements at universities because of society. Mr Lewis said by way of interjection that the borrowings made by the guild. Is that right or members opposite have nothing to defend. There wrong? is a very old adage that he who pays the piper The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Not quite. calls the tune and if these people are not paying- The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: But it is very close to The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Obviously die it? honourable member does not understand what is The Hon. Grace Vaughan: It is part of it. in the Bill. The Hon. A A. LEWIS: So every student The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: Tell me. should have a part in doing that. Whatever otlher Several members interjected. activities the guild wishes to undertake is its The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (The Hon. R. J. business. If it wishes to join the AUS and send L. Williams): Order! The hour is late and I money to the PLO and all these other- suggest that members stop interjecting and that The Honi. D. K. Dans: What is the PLO? the member on his feet addresses the Chair. The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I am sorry for the The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: I shall sit down Leader of the Opposition, but the letters stand for now and allow Mr Lewis to tell me, through you, the Palestinian Liberation Organisation, Mr Deputy Chairman, the rationale behind this The Minister has often explained to the Hon. clause and whether any other organisation in Don Cooley that the students have to pay and it is Western Australia or in Australia would tolerate often said that the person who pays the piper pays such a position. for the tune. The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Is it not fascinating The Hon. D. W. Cooley: It should be "plays the that we have been playing around with this for tune". some hours and even now- The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: In this case he is The Hon. D. K. Dans: You are easily going to play and pay. He is going to play because fascinated. he has paid towards the capital going into the The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I am because I can guild-the capital buildings paid for by the guild. never get over the fact that I am told by members If a person wants to join the guild as an active opposite that I lack conscience and do not member and join all the things that happen in understand; and it is said with regard to so many guilds he has to pay the fee. Bills. I am beginning to wonder how I have ever However, if a person at a university pays done anything in life because I have not had the towards the upkeep of the guild buildings then he guidance of trade unions or academics. has a vote for the guild. That is what he will do The Hon. D. W. Cooley interjected. with the amenities fee and if he then opts to join The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: I will talk about it in the other activities of the guild, such as debates and it is about time the Hon. Don Cooley sat on the rise in cost of loving, he may do so. down and read the Bill. The Minister has Students get a vote because they pay that initial explained it to him time and time again but he fee. This is so simple it staggers me that at this will not listen. time in the morning the Opposition cannot understand it. .The Hon. R. Hetherington: I would listen to you if you explain it. The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN I was -not going to speak on these amendments but I cannot The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: He has told the let the Hon. Sandy Lewis get away with his member. simplistic rationalisation of what the Government The Hon. R. Hetherington: I want to hear it is trying to do. What we have is a gap which the ffom You. Minister obviously does not understand. This is so The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: He has told members of the rest of the Government members; they opposite that every student will pay an amenities either cannot understand or do not want to fee. understand. 3254 3254COUNCIL]

There is a gap between the services and can have communication between the students amenities fee and the membership of the guild. and the governing authority. That gap has to fill what is still in the Bill and has What happens if no-one joins the guild? The not been taken out. Heaven knows why the possibility is there! If one finds oneself in a Government did not do it because it is trying p~osition where something has to be done, and one effectively to do it with the other parts of the Bill has the authority, the autonomy, and the respect amending the Act. Section 28(3) of the Act states that is due to a member of that body running an that the guild shall be an organised association of organisation, one would get to and do it. students for furthering of their common interests. However, the people who are at present We could argue of course that services and enthusiastic about it will say, "Blow it, we will not amenities and taking a vested interest in paying get any respect. We have already been castigated for the capital costs of the buildings would give in the Legislative Council; called communists, students equality. There is more; there is the ratbags, and inefficient; and said to be lacking in maintenance of buildings and further programmes responsibility. Who wants to be in such a that will be carried out in the way of service position? Who wants to be in a position of doing amenities, and there is the administration all that work for nothing except to be involved. The administration cannot be effected castigated?" unless there is a guild. What will we do if we do not have a guild? If the senate simply takes a services and People may not join it and the registrar will have amenities fee then the registrar will have to to take on this extra burden which will mean undertake the administration and I can assure the more money would be needed. Most of the people House that it will cost a lot of money. Simply running the guild are doing it on a voluntary paying a fee will not get the work done. One basis. A few, such as the president and the editor cannot take money and pass it over to a body that of Pelican, are paid but most of the workers are will not be there. What happens if no-one decides volunteers. to join the guild; who will run the whole affair The Government should not be interfering with 'then? At the moment it is run by dedicated and people who are doing a good job. It is proven in enthusiastic people. the Act that the, guild is needed as a If there is no guild the registrar will have to do communication nfiedium between students and the what is required. He does niot want to do it and governing authority, yet the Government is doing neither does the senate want him to do it. its best to get rid of the guild. The Government Administration costs are very high and these wants its cake and it wants to eat it as well. The people do not want to add to their already great Government is indicating that it wants all students in the guild but it does not want them to burden of administration by taking on the belong to it; that is complete gobbledygook. The administration of the guild. As I have explained Government is saying it does not want them to before, the running of the guild is a very big pay their extra few bob but it wants them to be business indeed. seen as belonging to something that If we do not have people joining the guild there communicates With the governing authority. will be only two types involved. They would Although I am saying the services and comprise. people who are dedicated and people amenities are the greater part of what the guild who want to get in and stir. We will not have the does as far as consumption is concerned, I shall ordinary run-of-the-mill students who are now not allow to go unchecked in this House the idea members, because they will have to be members that that is all a guild is; that is, a services and to take part in the guild activities. amenities body. A guild is a body that I will quote subsection (3) of section 28 of the communicates to the governing authority what Act which reads as follows- the students are feeling and wanting. it is given The Guild shall be an organised great respect by the university senate. The Association of such undergraduates for the president is an ex officio member of the Senate. furthering of their common interests, and The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (the Hon. R. J. L shall be the recognised means of Williams): I think I must remind the member that communication between the undergraduates she should speak to the amendment we are and the governing authority of the University debating. in accordance with such Statutes as the The Hon. GRACE VAUGHAN: Mr Deputy governing authority may prescribe. Chairman, I feel this amendment to the clause is This Act says we have to have a guild so that we the very crux of the whole Bill. In fact, it is the [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977) 325525 crux of that part of the Act which provides that The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: But it is possible that we need to have a guild;, but we are doing our best not one of us will get home tonight; it is about as to destroy it by saying there will be no autonomy possible as that. and there will be membership by people who do The Hon. Grace Vaughan: What rubbish! not pay. There will be no respect for these people when they are able to spring up and say, "Yes, I The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: It is about as possible want to belong to this body which has already -as that. Let us deal with probabilities and what will happen been castigated in the Legislative Council of this when we look into the future. I agree State". Who with .the Hon. Grace Vaughan that the people would want to belong to this body? concerned They would say, "Let them get along with it should have the right to use those extra themselves". Why should that body be castigated facilities. I did not intend to involve myself in this for the hard work it is doing? The Government is debate. I was challenged by the Hon. Don Cooley. making an effort to destroy this body. The The Hon. Grace Vaughan: It is a perfectly Government has no compunction in destroying it. voluntary gesture for you to get on Your feet. The H-on. A. A. LEWIS: The Hon. Grace The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: The Hon. Don Cooley Vaughan, out of her own mouth, has proved how will not deny he challenged me to get up and sensible this measure is. She said the main idea explain the situation, mainly because he thought I was to run the amenities; but there. were other did not know anything about it. facilities involved. Now this Bill allows the other The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Well, he was right; facilities to, be paid for by the people who wiN use wasn't he? those extra facilities. As for the honourable. The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: No; he was not right, member saying nobody would enter the guild, a because even the Hon. Grace Vaughan said I few seconds earlier she said, "The stirrers and knew a little about the situation. It is seldom that those who are concerned will be the only people members opposite say that I know anything about who will join the gu 'ild."' anything. I have sufficient knowledge to deal with The Hon. Grace Vaughan: They would be the any challenges the Opposition likes to raise, and if likely people. I am talking about possibilities. members opposite wish to keep challenging me The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: Then the honourable about the situation I will be able to answer their member said the registrar should run the challenges. I know the Hon. Robert H-etherington business. will get up with a new theory- The Hon. R. H-etherington: She said he might The Hon. R1. H-etherington; I am not going to have to. Why do you not listen? get up with theories; I am going to gdt up with The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: That has been facts. repeated and the Hon. Robert Hetherington The Hon. A. A. LEWIS: It will be the first agrees. time in the debate that the Hon. Robert -The Hon. Grace Vaughan: Who else would do Hetherington has done that. The honourable it? member has not looked at what this Bill intends -to do. Members opposite have taken a certain line The Hon. R. F. Claughton: If there is no guild and they have restricted their vision and have not the registrar would have to do it. looked at what this Bill will offer to students. I The. Hon. A. A. LEWIS: May I finish? There believe the students can opt out and still have;4 is no doubt that private enterprise would not lose vote for the reasons I have given. $9 000 in the tavern in the first year. If private The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: When this enterprise ran the catering section and the tavern Bill was first mooted the Minister found a it would make a profit. The registrar does not number of problems which resulted in the even need to enter into it. It is a fact that production of the final Bill. The university members -opposite think along one line and will administration was appalled when it first thought not allow their imaginations to deviate. It is like the guild would be a voluntary body and the some of the situations the Leader of the services and amenities fees would have to be Opposition and I have seen in this place in one of administered by somebody else, because they had the jobs we undertake. I do not believe this would to face the fact that if the services at present ever come back to the registrar. I. do not believe administered by the voluntary work of guild the Hon. Grace Vaughan believes in her heart Of members had to be administered by the hearts that everybody would opt out of the guild. university, the fee would have to be increased. The Hon. Grace Vaughan: It is possible; that is This was a very real concern. It was a practical - what I said. concern; not an ideological- concern, It was a 3256 3256[COUNCIL] practical concern of the university administration about it let it provide for them to elect a and it is very worried about the situation. It Consultative council to liaise with the guild immediately entered into negotiation to see if this council. could be avoided, and a form has been produced The Hon. A. A. Lewis: Would you think that whereby it has been avoided. because it is not a compulsory election the people We are now at the stage-i am not going to who are concerned would be those who are voting venture to predict, I am going to consider the and that they would also be members of the possibility-where the work has to be done by guild? members of the guild. In other words, if one The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: One never wants the responsibility one has to pay the fee. knows with the elections. They may or may not One has to pay the fee in order to be elected to do be. It would be a possibility. the work. 1 do not know how many students will The Hon. A. A. Lewis: And a fairly good one. join- When this sort of thing happens, one does because they are the concerned people involved. not know whether a large number will prove to be disinterested and will not join; whether people will The Hon. R, H ETH ER INGTON: OF cou rse it not join as a protest; or whether everybody will is quite likely to happen, but may not. Sometimes join. It is possible a minority of students will join in elections we have people organising from and it is then possible they can,' be outvoted for the outside in order to get the numbers to overthrow a membership of the guild council- good member because for some reason they do not like him. The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: How can they be outvoted? There are dangers here, and in theory it is a bad clause. For this reason I am opposed to it The Hon. RI. HETHERINGTON: -by the despite the expla nations by the Minister, despite people who are not members of the guild. the explanations by Mr Lewis, and despite Mr The Hon. D. J. Wordsworth: They are only Masters' worried look. I do wish that Mr Masters voting for the president, and if someone is not a would listen and join us on this one. member he cannot vote. The Hon. G. E. Masters: I am not allowed to The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: One may be smile so I had better look worried. outvoted as far as the person he desires to be The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: elected. The students It would be vote for the president of the a good idea council. if Mr Masters voted for the amendment. This time I will sit down and I will The Hon. D. J1.Wordsworth: That is right. not speak any further no matter what anyone else The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: In other says. words, I ant.suggesting that if the people who The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: Two things are have taken the trouble to join the guild wanted certain. One is that Mr Lewis is aspiring to be a certain members elected because they knew a Minister and has taken over. This is the second certain person's worth-Sue Boyd had some occasion I have seen him take over from the worth and 1 do not mean that in the way in which Minister and give the explanation. However, he it came out, because she was a very good has done much worse than the Minister. president and I wish we could have More women The H-on. D. K. Dans; Impossible. presidents of the guild-and they showed by their vote that somebody should be president, they The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: We have an could be outvoted by a majority of non-guild amendment before the Chair. What I want to members. This could be very disenchanting and it know-from the Minister this time-is why the might bring about the very situation which we do Government will not agree to the amendment. I not wish to bring about, which is that guild want the Minister to give us his rationale for the members would say, "What the hell!" and opt clause. I know it is late and I know that members out. opposite are not thinking as well as they should. Perhaps that is the reason we are not getting I do not know whether it will happen; probably through to members opposite. it will not. I think the students will continue to battle on although they will not be happy with the The Hon. D. K. Dans: That isn't the reason. situation; but I do not know. The Hon. R. G. Pike: Even when we are only This is not a good provision. People who are not half awake, we are better than members on your prepared to join the guild should not have a right side. to vote, even if they do pay amenity fees. If the The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: Another aspect on Government wants to put something in the Bill which I would like the Minister to comment is (Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 325725 why a person cannot hold office if he is not a Page 4, line 6-Insert after the word "of" member of the guild but can. vote? What is the the passage "educational,". reason behind that? Why is the Government I will be brief on this, but I do appeal to the precluding such a person from holding office? I Government to accept the amendment because it hate to say this, but I think the Government is is one which all the people to whom I have being dishonest by being evasive in respect of the spoken-the administration staff of both the matter. University of WA and the Murdoch A vital principle is involved and I think we University-want inserted. It is illogical that a should all stay here until we get a satisfactory student guild, comprising people who are at a answer from the Minister. As I said before, no tertiary institution to be educated and who are organisation in Western Australia would tolerate interested in education, cannot spend money on a situation under which a person, not a member of education. the organisation, is allowed to vote in elections. As I said, I would like the Minister to explain The guild can spend money on the development why, if they are allowed to vote, they are not of cultural or social or sporting or recreational allowed to hold office. activities. I was speaking to a person on the administration The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN (The Hon. R. J. side of the university who asked L. Williams): The question is that the amendment me not to play politics in any way at all with this be agreed to. amendment, and I am trying not to. He asked whether, if there was any chance of my making a The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: I gave the Minister noise before he had a chance to talk once more to an opportunity to give an explanation, but the Minister, I would keep quiet and I promised I obviously he does not intend to do so. would. The Hon. D. J, Wordsworth: I have explained it twice and Mr Lewis has explained it once. It seems to me, and it seemed to him-and to a whole number of other people-that the student The Hon. D. W. COOLEY: He cannot explain guild should be able to spend money on the situation. Mr Lewis has now left the Chamber educational matters. Whether cultural activities so he has lost Mr Lewis and be is lost altogether. can be separated from educational activities, I do This is a disgraceful situation. not know. I see the acting Minister is now returning to his seat. It is disgraceful when we cannot get an After all, the students are there to educate answer from the Minister. No-one has yet asked themselves. They are interested in education, and him why these people cannot hold office. It is an they'are c 'ritical of Governments and their policies affront to us when the Minister will not answer. on education. Why should that not be? As a teacher I learnt a great deal about the needs of Amendment put and a division taken with the students by their criticisms of me, which they following result- made to my face because they are like that, and I Ayes 7 did not mind. So, why should not they spend Hon. D. W. Cooley Hon. F. E, McKenzie Hon. D. K. Dans Hon. Grace Vaughan money on educational purposes, whether to Hon. Lyla Elliott Hon. R. F.Claughton educate themselves, whether to hold lunch-hour Hon. R. Hetherington (Teller) courses, or whether to invite speakers. The Noes 17 students should be able to do any of those things Hon. G. W. Berry Hon. 0. N. B. Oliver Hon- V. J.Ferry Hon. W. M,Piesse which a student guild might properly do in the Hon. H. W. Gayfer Han. R. G. Pike field of education. I thought we would want to Hon. T. Knight Hon. 1.0G. Pratt encourage the students to be interested in their Hon. A. A. Lewis Hon. J. C. Tozer temporary profession of being-educated. Hon. G. C. MacKinnon Han. W. R. Withers It is a Hon. M. McAleer Hon. D.J. Wordsworth proper activity. Hon. 1.0G. Medcalf Hon. 0. E.Masters The provision of services and activities is- not Hon. N. F. Moore (Teller) Pairs the main activity of a student guild. This is a Ayes Noes historical accident which has worked well and Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs Hon. T. McNeil which the tertiary institutions want to keep, but Hon. R. T. Leeson Hon. N. McNeill that is not the prime purpose of the student guild. Amendment thus negatived. Certainly, the guild is more likely to know about The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: As my next the needs of the students, and is more likely to amendment was consequential upon the one just have long and bitter debates when getting money defeated, I will not move it but will deal with the together, as was the case when the guild sought to following one. I therefore move an amendment- provide a swimming pool. A small militant group, 3258 3258COUNCIL] which wanted to build a creche moved in, and Noes 17 they got it. Hon. G.W. Berry Hon. 0. N. B.Oliver Hon. V. J. Ferry Hon. W.M. Piesse For a student guild not to be. able to spend Hon. H. W.Gayfer Hon. R.G. Pike money on education seems to me to be a Hon. A. A. Lewis Hon. 1.0. Pratt Hon. G.C. MacKinnon Hon. J. C.Tozer contradiction, and I appeal to the Minister and Ho.,. G. E. Masters Hon. W.R. Withers the Government to accept this amendment. I did Hon. M. McAleer Hon. D. J.Wordsworth Hon. 1.G. Medcalf not really expect the Government to accept any Hon. T. Knight of Hon. N. F.Moore (Teller) the other amendments. I am sorry because I Ayes Pairs Noes thought they were sensible and good, but this is a Hon. R. H. C. Stubbs Hon. N. McNeilI highly desirable amendment. It is wanted by the Hon. R. T. Leeson Hon. T. McNeil student guild members, and by members of the Amendment thus negatived. tertiary administrations. At times I wish I had the Clause put and passed. oratory of Mark Antony so that I could persuade Clauses 5 to 9 put and passed. members opposite about something which seems Clause 10: Section 44 amended- to me to be so patently obvious. I ask members to The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: It was consider this amendment, and to pass it. brought to my attention rather by accident just The Hon.: D. J. WORDSWORTH: The before the luncheon suspension that the proposed new subsection (9) in this clause, which says that Government does not believe this amendment is every student will vote for the guild council, necessary. There is ample provision for the would cut across the way the guild council is activities of the guild. voted for at WAIT because there they vote in schools with a certain proportion from each school ask the The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON: I going into the guild; then the guild so formed Minister whether the term "cultural" is elects its own officers. Concern was expressed interpreted by the Government to include that this clause would cut across their method of education. If it does, will it embrace the electing the guild, and it was thought this was educational activities of the guild which have been quite unintentional on the part of the undertaken at this time? Government. I would like to hear from the Minister on this matter. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I think the The Hun. D.3J. WORDSWORTH: If this were Minister for Education has indicated to the guild the effect, it would have been unintentional. I that it has the scope, within its own budget, to have discussed the matter with Dr Haydon decide how it will break up its cultural Williams and he assures me he considers the expenditure. I think it is self-explanatory, and it elections will continue at WAIT as previously. Mr does not completely exclude anything that can be Hetherington pointed out that at WAIT there are associ ated with education. I think the terminology eight schools and each school elects is quite adequate. representatives. The whole student body does not vote on the guild, only as members of each of the The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I can only eight schools. I gather that because of the manner say I am bitterly disappointed with the Minister's in which they are able to do this by their own reply. I know a number of people at the regulations and statute they feel they are capable universities and at tertiary institutions will be of continuing to do it in that manner in spite of bitterly disappointed also. They hoped this the legislation. amendment might be passed. The Hon. R. HETHERINGTON: I accept the Minister's explanation. I ask whether he would Obviously, it is no good pursuing it further, but promise us that should it be found for any reason I do express my bitter disappointment. that this clause does interfere with the way WAIT Amendment put and a division taken with the elects its officers-somebody might challenge it following result- and find it cuts across the way WAIT does it, although it is a remote possibility-the Ayes 7 Government will then consider an amendment. Hon. R. F. Claughton Hon. R. Hetherington The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH: I think I Hon. D. W. Cooley can give that assurance on behalf of the Minister Hon. D. K. Dans Hon. Grace Vaughan Hon. Lyla Elliott Hon. F. E. McKenzie for Education. Clause put and passed. [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 325935

Clauses I I and 12 put and passed. topography, etc. Certain provisions currently in Title put and passed. the Act are to be more efficiently administered as regulations. Report Simplification of the paper work required to Bill reported, without amendment, and the declare and vary restricted and prohibited report adopted. burning times and to eliminate duplication of records relating to volunteer bush fire brigades is Third Reading proposed. Some annual declarations are now sufficiently stabilised as to allow permanent Bill read a third time, on motion by the Hon. arrangements subject to variation in the abnormal D. J. Wordsworth (Minister for Transport), and season. passed. It is proposed that petty offences will be RUSH FIRES ACE' AMENDMENT BILL handled by a system of infringement notices, and monetary penalties have been adjusted in line Receipt and First Reading with current values. Bill received from the Assembly; and, on The Bureau of Meteorology should play a motion by the Hon. 1. G. Medcalf (Attorney- greater part in fire preparedness. Firstly, the General), read a first time. bureau should be represented on the board itself;, and secondly, the "hazard" forecasts currently Second Reading used should be changed to "danger" forecasts. THE HON. 1. G. MEDCALF Briefly, the "fire hazard forecast" refers to (Metropolitan-Attorney-General) [12.57 am.]: combustibility of fuel but "fire danger forecasts" I move- introduce the factors influencing fire behaviour such as strength and direction of wind, That the Bill be now read a second time. topography, and availability of fuel. Western This Bill proposes amendments to 42 of the 67 Australia will no longer be disadvantaged by use sections of the existing Act. A large number of of a less effective system. Current practices in this these are consequential adjustments following State relating to harvesting restrictions already from amendments to other sections, and four new follow assessments of local "fire danger". sections are proposed. The Act currently authorises bush fire control The amendment proposals have resulted from officers and local people adjacent to Crown land three sources: firstly, recommendations from the and reserves to enter and take measures to Bush Fires Board based on requests from local provide themselves and the community with government and the Country Shire Councils' protection against fires. Recent provisions in other Association. Acts have interfered with these rights. .Secondly, amendments were proposed in the Amendments to the Bush Fires Act seek to report of Mr F. J. Campbell, Forests Department preserve the right of individuals and the Fire Superintendent, following his extensive community to provide for their own protection, investigation and his report of May, 1972. The whilst at the same time providing proper Bush Fires Board initiated this move and the protection to those reserves where adequate Minister for Lands endorsed the inquiry. During alternative arrangements in the interest of the the process of his investigation Mr Campbell reserve and the local community have been solicited written submissions from local approved. authorities and attended 15 regional meetings at For example when which representatives of local government and an area of vacant Crown land, fire protected by hazard reduction carried their fire control organisations made further out biy the local community, becomes a national representations to him. park or wildlife reserve, the community will retain Finally, amendments were recommended by the the right to protect itself until such time as the board following a review of the Act as a whole. controlling authority produces a suitable fire The general purpose of the amendments is to protection scheme for the land. provide greater flexibility in the operation of the Regional committees and development of Act by further decentralising controls governing regional fire plans to meet major threats and the use of fire. outbreaks requiring the co-ordinated efforts of Local authorities will have a greater part in the several local authorities are other new proposals. day-to-day administration of the Act to meet the Some regional co-ordination authorities have been widely varying conditions of weather, vegetation, formed but their formal recognition is desirable. 3260 3260COUNCIL]

Much of the detailed alteration relates to the PRE-PRIMARY CENTRES important questions of firebreaks, permits, Funds, and Non-Government Schools restricted burning times, and prohibited burning times. These are the matters where the Bush Fires 240. The Hon. R. F. CLAUGHTON, to the Board prefers to set down guiding prinbiples and Minister for Transport, representing the leave their interpretation in each district to local Minister for Education: government. Greater streamlining of these essential control features has been attempted to (1) What annual supplies and per capita facilitate administration at all levels from the funds are available for children Governor downwards without sacrifice of attending pre-primary centres? responsibility or efficiency. (2) Are these supplies and funds available to The appointment of a superintendent, as the independent schools in respect of pre- board's chief executive officer, is to be recognised. school age children attending these At present the detailed duties of field staff are. schools?. expressed in the Act itself but this is not (3) What subsidies are specifically available considered desirable or appropriate. to pre-primary centres only? Although it is difficult to secure unanimity The Hon. D. J1.WORDSWORTH replied: among country shire councils, farmer organisations, and people from widely-separated (1) and (3) Two annual allowances are centres with different interests, it is believed that provided per head of enrolment, one of undue contention is unlikely to arise over the $3.00 for programme planning, and the proposed amendments. Cirtainly a strong body of other of $4.20 for consumable opinion exists in support of the changes proposed. equipment. New centres receive a I would like to indicate also that I intend to standard issue of furniture and move some amendments during the Committee equipment, plus an initial equipment debate. Notice of these amendments will be given grant of $300. A dollar for dollar tonight. The amendments will deal with the subsidy to a maximum of $500 is constitution of the board. I commend the Bill to available for the development of the House. playgrounds in new centres. Debate adjourned, on motion by the Hon. R. F. (2) Independent schools have recently been Claughton. allocated a per capita grant of $110 for enrolled five-year-alds. These schools do House adjourned at 1.03 a.m. (Thursday) not receive the allowances listed under (I) and (3) above. QUESTIONS ON NOTICE FLOUR DENTAL THERAPY CENTRES Government's Stocks Non-Government Schools 239. The Hon. D. K. DANS. to the Leader of the 241. The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT, to the Leader House: of the House: (1) Is it correct that the State Government has 300 tonnes of flour on hand (1) Is the School Dental Service available to following the flour millers' dispute in children attending independent schools? Perth? (2) (a) If not, why not; (2) If so, where is it being kept? S(b) if so, on what basis? (3) How is it proposed to dispose of this floor? The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON replied: The IRon. G. C. MacKINNON replied: (1) Yes. (1) No. There is not a vestige of truth in the (2) (a) Not applicable; reports. Every single bag was disposed of (b) independent schools are covered in to small bakeries and pastry-cooks. If exactly the same way as there had been, there would have been Government schools which do not no problem as it would have been used have a clinic, i.e. they are serviced in Government institutions. by the clinic established to cover (2) and (3) Answered by (1). that area or locality. [Wednesday, 9th November, 1977] 326136

Clinics are built on the principle RAPE that they service '1 200 primary Trial Evidence school children. The schools to be covered by a clinic are selected on 243. The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT, to the the basis of enrolment and their Attorney-General distance from the clinic. (1) Will the Attorney-General give Every effort is made to ensure that consideration to amending the Evidence the extension of the programme is Act to place the defendant in a rape trial systematic so that there are no on the same basis as the victim, namely unused pockets within serviced that where evidence of the former person's past sexual history is considered areas. relevant to the case- by the presiding judge, it be permissible evidence before the Court? TRAFFIC ACCIDENTS (2) if not, will be introduce an amendment Motor Vehicle Repairs to the Act to preclude all evidence concerning the victim's 242. The Hon. Tom McNeil, for the Hon. N. E. past sexual history? BAXTER, to the Leader of the House, representing the Minister for Police and The Hon. I. G. MEDCALF replied: Traffic: (1) No. As the law now stands there are already two bases Further to the answer upon which such to question No. evidence could be admissable- 231 on Thursday, the 3rd November, 1977, relating to traffic accident (a) whether or not evidence of the damage- complainant's previous sexual history has been admitted, evidence (1) Would the Minister endeavour to of the accused's previous history give me a more specific answer to will be admissable if it is directly part (2) of the question? relevant to the issues of the trial. (2) As the answer to part (3) of the (b) where evidence of the complainant's question indicates that the provision previous sexual history has been in relation to riot having to report admitted as bearing upon her accidents where the damage is credibility then evidence of the estimated to be less than one accused's previous, history will be hundred dollars, has little, if any, similarly admissable for -the same application, does the Minister reason. consider section 55 of the Road (2) Answered by (1). Traffic Act should be amended to repeal the provision? ELECTORAL The Hon. G. C. MacKINNON replied: Kinmberley Eletion (1) The only advice available to me is that the average cost of claims met 244. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Attorney- by the State Government Insurance General: Office increased by 236.79 per cent (1) Is the Minister aware that Justice J. from the year ended 30th June, Smith, in his judgment in the Court of 1969, to the Year ended 30th June, Disputed Returns on the Kimberley by- 1977. election, has stated that the telegram, (2) Whilst I did not say "that the which he instructed the Crown Solicitor provision in relation to not having to draft, was advice or guidance for to report accidents where the which there was no authority in the damage is estimated to be less than Electoral Act? (2) Is he also aware that Justice Smith $100 has little if any application", I states -that "It was no. part of the did agree there is some Minister's function to usurp the exercise inconvenience. of the statutory discretion which the Further consideration will be given legislature invested in the Chief to the matter raised. Electoral Officer"? 3262 3262(COUNCIL)

(3) On whose advice did the Attorney- Minister could be given by the Chief General decide to instruct the Crown Electoral Officer, and the telegram was Solicitor to draft a telegram? thereupon drafted by the Crown (4) Will he table all the correspondence Solicitor and subsequently the draft was between himself, the Crown Solicitor. settled by us jointly. I refute any the Minister for Justice, the Chief suggestion that the Crown Solicitor was Electoral Officer, Mr K. Broomhall and coerced in any way in relation to the Mr R. Rowell, on the subject of contents of the telegram or in relation to instructions to illiterate electors? the advice he was to give to the Chief (5) Did the Minister check whether he had Electoral Officer. The following is the the power, under the Electoral Act, to text of the telegram: usurp statutory discretion which the TO ALL PRESIDING legislature invested in the Chief OFFICERS IN THE KIMBERLEY, Electoral Officer? PILBARA, GASCOYNE AND (6) Will he ascertain whether the Crown MUJRCHISON-EYRE Solicitor's advice to the Chief Electoral ELECTORATES: Officer on whether he was obliged to send a telegram to presiding officers in Because of the recent amendments the north was in written form? to section 129 of the Electoral Act it (7) If "Yes" to (6), will be table it? is suggested that when taking (8) Will he also ascertain the basis on which instructions from illiterate electors it the Crown Solicitor reached the decision would be advisable to avoid- that the Chief Elctoral Officer had no (1) Asking the elector to indicate alternative other than to obey the his preference by reference to a instruction of the Minister for Justice party named by you. with respect to sending the telegram? (2) Asking the elector whether he (9) Will he also table advice that the Crown desires to vote for a particular Solicitor gave to the Chief Electoral candidate named by you. Officer in December, 1976, in relation (3) Marking on the Ballot Paper to instructions to presiding officers any preference not specifically concerning section 129 of the Electoral indicated by the elector. Act? The telegram in the view of both the The Hon. 1. G. MEDCALF replied: Crown Solicitor and myself was couched (1) Yes. in such a form as to proffer helpful (2) Yes. advice to presiding officers in relation to (3) The Minister for Justice, who was the difficulties which it was anticipated Minister in charge of the Electoral Act, might arise. In our joint view we requested me to confer with the Crown considered it to be in proper form to be Solicitor after the Chief Electoral sent by the Chief Electoral Officer to Officer had informed the Minister for Presiding Officers. Justice that acting on the advice of the Crown Solicitor he felt he should not It is understood that some Presiding give the instructions to Presiding Officers misinterpreted the second item Officers which the Minister had asked in the telegram. This is regretted and it him to give. was certainly never believed nor intended by me or the Crown Solicitor In the discussions with the Crown that this should or would cause any Solicitor I agreed with his view that it would be unwise for the Chief Electoral confusion. Officer to give the particular (4) 1 have no such correspondence. All instructions as set out in the Minister's communications between myself, the memorandum in relation to Certain Minister for Justice and the Crown proposed positive action by Presiding Solicitor were, to the best of my Officers.- in respect of the method of recollection, of an oral nature. If there is taking instructions from illiterate any other correspondence it is electors. However, we agreed that advice presumably held by the Electoral in negative form, as distinct from the Department or the Chief Secretary who firm instructions requested by the now administers the Electoral Act. [Wednesday, 9th November, 19771 326326

(5) This question apparently refers to the HOUSING Minister for Justice and I am not in a Funds position to answer it. It should be pointed out that section 5 of the 246. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Attorney- Electoral Act provides that the Chief General, representing the Minister for Electoral Officer administers the Act Housing: "under the Minister". It follows that the (1) Has the Minister seen a report on page Minister can hardly be said to usurp 19 of the magazine Economic Activity, functions where the Act contains such a of October, 1977, in which Professor provision. The view of the Crown Gordon Murray is reported to have said, Solicitor is that in such a case the with reference to housing problems, "to Minister has the ultimate authority. The exacerbate the situation, national funds learned Judges' views in this matter for State welfare housing (WA) rose by have been carefully considered and it is only 4 per cent in money terms this regretted that we cannot agree with year-about $25 million to $30 million them. less than would be required to maintain (6) The advice was not in written form. the same level of building activity"? (7) Not applicable. (2) Is this assessment correct? If "Yes" to (2), what specific actions (8) See answer to (5). The Crown Solicitor (3) has the Minister taken to seek more did not simply advise the Chief Electoral funds for State welfare housing in Officer that he had to send the telegram; Western Australia? he also told him that he thought the If "No" to (2), why not? telegram was quite proper in its terms. (4) (9) This advice was oral. The Hon. 1.0G. MEDCALF replied: (1) Not until it was brought to my attention by the Honourable Member's question. WANNEROO, ROAD (2) No. Upgrading (3) Answered by (2). (4) Firstly, the assessment implies an 245. The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT, to the Minister inflation rate in excess of 100 per cent in for Transport: 1976-77, whereas the actual experience In view of- of the Housing Commission in that year (a) the probability of a heavily was only of the order of 13 per cent on increased traffic flow along construction contracts. Wanneroo, Road during the 150th Secondly, the Housing Commission Anniversary Celebrationis in 1979 capital programmes are not totally because of special tourist funded through advances under the Commonwealth/State attractions in the Shire of Housing Wanneroo; and Agreement. Thirdly, the planned programme of the (b) the resulting traffic hazards on the Housing Commission for 1977-78 is northern section of the road intended to maintain physical activity at between Wanneroo townsite and the same level as was achieved in the the Yanchep turn-off;, preceding year. will the Minister give urgent attention to the upgrading of that section of the road? SCHOOLS The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH replied: State Flags Funds have been provided this financial 247. The Hon. LYLA ELLIOTT, to the Minister year to extend the upgrading to 2.3 km for Transport, representing the Minister for north of Karoborup Road and Education: consideration will be given to complete (1) Did the Director General of Education the upgrading next financial year to the write to schools on the 22nd September. entrance of the National Park, just 1977, concerning the State flag? north of the Yanchep Beach turn-off. (2) If so, will the Minister table the letter? 3264 [COUNCIL]

(3) In view of the fact that the MULLEWA-MEEKATH-ARRA RAILWAY Commonwealth Government provides LINE Australian flags to schools at .no cost, will the State Government make the Cost of Report Western Australian flag available to any 248. The Hon. D. K. DANS, to the Minister for school desiring it free of charge? Transport: What was the cost of the report by The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH replied: Maunsell and Partners into the (I) to (3) The letter is tabled herewith and condition of the Mullewa-Meekatharra provides all the details being sought by railway line? the Honourable Member. The Hon. D. J. WORDSWORTH replied: (See Tabled Paper N~o. 340). $4 885.75.