Monday, November 1, 1976 Fifth Series Vol. LXV. No.7 Kartika 10, 1898 (Saka)
P tfttS eriw V«l tXV-N o. t. JM aW t Cktot e a& i f j t KartUm 3,
LOK SABHA DEBATES
(Eighteenth Seaiion)
(Vol. L X V contains Nos, 1 —9)
LOK SABHA SECRETARIAT NEW DELHI
Price 1 £1. 2.00 CONTENTS
/vo. 7— Monday, November I, 1976/Karaka 10, 1898 (Saka)
Co l u m n s pers Laid on the T a b l e ...... 1— 10
Public Accounts Committee- Two Hundred and Thirty-Fourth and Two Hundred and Thirty-fifth Reports. . u
Committee on the Welfare of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes—
Fifty-Seventh R e p o it ...... XI
^Business Advisory Committee— Sixty-fifth Report ...... 12
Constitution (Forty-Fourth Amendment) Bill . 12— 384 Causes 43 to 59 and 1 ...... 12— 383 LOK SABHA DEBATES
LOK SABHA versions) under sub-section (3) of section 49 of the Gujarat Sales Tax Act. 1969 read with clause (c) (iii) of the Proclamation dated the 12th Monday, November 1, 1976/Kartika 10, March, 1976 issued by the President 1898 (Saka) in relation to the State of Gujarat: - (i) (GHN 64) GST 1076/(S. 49) (50)—TH published in Guja- rat Government Gazette dated the The Lok Sabha met at Eleven of the 26th August, 1976 making certain Clock. amendment to Notification No. [Mr. S p e a k e r in the Chair] (GHN 627) GST 1070|(S. 49) — TH dated the 29th April, 1970. [Placed in Library. See No. LT- PAPERS LAID ON THE TABLE 1145/76], M erchant Shipping (Prevention1 of (ii) (GHN 65) GST 1076/(S. 49)— Pollution of the Sea by Oil) Amend- (SI) TH published in Gujarat Gov- ment Rules, 1976 ernment Gazette dated the 26th August, 1976 making certain am- ..THE MINISTER OF SHIPPING mendment to Notification No. AND TRANSPORT (DR. G. S. DHIL- (GHN 627) GST 1070/(S. 49)— LPN): I beg to lay on the Table a TH dated the 29th April. 1970. copy of the Merchant Shipping [Placed in Library. See No. LT_ (Prevention of pollution of the Sea 11451/76] by Oil) Amendment Rules, 1976 (Hindi and English versions) publis- (2) A copy of Notification No hed in Notification No. G.S.R. 1349 in (GHN 68) GHT 1076/S. 5(2;—(3)— Gazette of India dated the 18th TH (Hindi and English versions) pub- September, 1976, under sub-section lished in Gujarat Government (3) of section 458 of Merchant Shipp- Gazette dated the 1st September, ing Act, 1958. [Placed in Library. 1976 making certain amendment in See No. LT-11450/76]. Schedule 1 to the Gujarat Sales Tax Act, 1969, under sub-section (3) of section 5 of the said Act read with N otifications * u n d e r G u j a r a t s a l e s clause (c) (iii) of the Proclamation T a x A c t , 1969, S upplementary A g r e e - dated the 12th March, 1976 issued m e n t s b e t w e e n G u j a r a t a n d R e s e r v e by the President in relation to the B a n k o f I n d ia , a s t a t e m e n t f o r d e l a y State of Gujarat. [Placed in Lib- a n d N otifications u n d e r I n c o m e - t a x rary. See No LT-11452/76]. A c t . 1961
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN- (3) A copy of Notification No. CHARGE OF THE DEPARTMENT (GHN 69) GST 1676/(S. 23)—(4)— OF REVENUE AND BANKING TH (Hindi and English versions) (SHRI PRANAB KUMAR MUKH- published in Gujarat Government ERJEE): I bsg to lay on the Table: — Gazette dated the 1st September. 1976 making certain amendment in (1) A copy each of the following P a r t A of Schedule II to the Gujarat Notifications (Hindi and English Sales Tax Act, 1969, under sub- 2660 LS—1. papers Laid NOVEMBER 1, 1976 Papers Laid 4
[Shri Pranab Kumar Banerjee] Rules, 1976, published in Notifica- section (2) of section 23 of the said tion No. G.S.R. 1261 in Gazette o f Act read with clause (c) (iii) of India dated the 29th August, 1976 the Proclamation dated the 12th together with an explanatory me- March, 1976 issued by the President morandum. in relation to the State of Gujarat. [Placed *» Library. See No. LT- (ii) The Urban Land (Ceiling and 11453/76]. Regulation) Sixth Amendment Rules, 1976, published in Notifica- (4)
ogth ) Twenty-second Amendment the following papers (Hindi and Eng- Regulations, 1876; published in lish versions) under sub-section (1) Notification No. OJ3JL 848(E) in of section 618A of the Companies Gazette of India, dated the 15th Act, 1956:— October, 1976. (i) Review by the Government Re v ie w a n d An n u a l Rep o r t o f L ub r i- (2) A statement (Hindi and Eng- zol In d ia L t d ., Bo m b a y fo r 1975-76. lish versions) showing reasons for THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE delay In laying the above docu- MINISTRY OF PETROLEUM (SHRI ments. [Placed in Library. See No. ZtAURRAHMAN ANSARI): I beg to l»y on the Table a copy each of LT-11461/7BJ. 7 Papers Laid NOVEMBER 1, 1976 Ptfp*r» Laid f
A n n u a l F in a n c ia l S t a t e m e n t s jpqr (*)) -v r^ m flfwrihr *t 1976-77 o r T a m i l N a d u B&ecracmr B o a r d a n d A v o ir R e p o r t o n A n n u a l Ffwft ?jht A c c o u n t s t h e r e o f f o r 1972-78 •w i t h % fTT«T WrH’ «TWr S t a t e m e n t s f o r m o t l a y in g i n H i n d i a n i; A n n u a l F in a n c ia l S t a t e m e n t ftr^ rr w r «fiNfr f o r 1976-77 op G u j a r a t E l e c t r ic it y # 5^>r) i B o a r d with statem ent for not laying [Placed in Library. See No. LT- i n H i n d i 11463/76]. s u f if* rw ( ) fa v ) swm) : if *wr 3 % wyrfa iro fortv 12 *n*, *mr «T2H r r rw ^r g — 19 7 6 arnft «ift »rt % spnr (*r) (?fcr) ( 1) (% *) t ^*TT TC3T ; apROT STcTR srrnr India, Revifw and Annual Report o f *ihft ?r^>r) i Film Finance Corporation L t d , Bombay foh 1974-75, Notifications [Placed in Library. 5ee No, LT- under Tamil Nadu Cinemas (Regu- 11462/76]. lation; Act, 1995, and Bombay Cinema (Gujarat Amndt.) Rules, (2) (m?) rrfwrr^ TT^xr ^ 1976 with statem ents for delay. *r THOTfjr srrr fo rr^ THE DEPUTY MINISTER IN THE 31 3R*fV, 1976 ^ ^ ^ MINISTRY OF INFORMATION AND *r£ ^«fttr»TT % (*r) (;«rn:) BROADCASTING (SHRI DHARAM BIR SINHA): I beg to lay on the ^ *nar TferT f ? ^ (sr^nr) Table — srfsrfsr^nT, 1948 a irr 69 (1) A copy of the Annual Report % sRT*r?r ?rr^T?rr< (Part l) /Hindi and English v e r - 1 9 7 2 - 7 3 3; srrfarc? sions) of the Registrar of News- sr# crr srfcrt^r ^ papers for India on Press in India* 1975. [Placed in Library. See No. t**»r srfir i LT-11465/76]. papers Laid KARTIKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) Papers Laid 10
(2) A copy each of the following Rules, 1957. papers (Hindi and English versions) (iii) G.O. Ms. 2280 published in under sub-section (1) of section Tamil Nadu Government Gazette *19A of the Companies Act, 1956. dated the 7th January, 1976 mak- (i) Review by the Government ing certain amendment to the on the working of the Film Fin- Tamil Nadu Cinemas (Regulation) ance Corporation Limited, Bom- Rules, 1957. bay, for the year 1974-75. (iv) G.O. Ms. 191 published in Tamil Nadu Government Gazette (ii) Annual Report of the Film dated the 18th February, 1976 Finance Corporation Limited, making certain amendment to the Bombay, for the year 1974-75 Tamil Nadu Cinemas (Regula- along with the Audited Accounts tion) Rules, 1957. *nd the comments of the Com- ptroller and Auditor General (v) G.O.Ms. 416 published in thereon. Tamil Nadu Government Gazette dated the 24th March, 1976 mak- (3) A statement (Hindi and Eng- ing certain amendment to the lish versions) showing reasons for Tamil Nadu Cinemas (Regula- delay jn laying the above docu- tion) Rules, 1957. ments. [Placed in Library. See No. (5) Two statements (Hindi and LT-11466/76], English versions) showing reasons (4) A copy each of the following for delay in laying the above Noti- Notifications (Hindi and English fications. [Placed iv Library. See versions) under sub-section (3) of No. LT-11467/76], section 10 of the Tamil Nadu Cine- (6) (i) A copy of the Bombay mas (Regulation) Act, 1955 read Cinema (Gujarat Amendment) with clause (c) (iv) of the Pro- Rules, 1976 (Hindi and English ver. clamation dated the 31st January, sions) published in Notification No 1976 issued by the President m GH/G/131/BCR-3275/238 3-A in relation to the State of Tamil Guiarai Government Gazette dated Nadu: — the tith May, 1976, under sub-sec1ion (i) G.O. Ms. 2868 published in O) of section 9 of the Bombay Tamil Nadu'*Government Gazette Cinemas (Regulation) Act, 1953 read dated the 22nd January, 1975 •with clause (c) (iii) of the Proclama- making certain amendments to tion dated tbe ‘ 12th March, 1976 the Tamil Nadu Cinemas (Regula- issued by the President in relation tion) Rules, 1957. to the Stale of Gujarat. (ii) G.O. Ms. 773 published i“ (ii) A statement (IIJndi and Tamil Nadu Government Gazette English versions) showing reason* •dated the 28th May, 1875 making for delay in laying the above Noti- certain amendments to the Tamil fication. [Placed in Library. See Nadu Cinemas (Regulation) No. LT-11468/78]. I I s c & ST Welfare NOVEMBER 1, 1*70 ConetittsUa* <44*H Arndt.) ia Comm. Report 11.68 fer* BUSINESS ADVISORY COMMITTEE
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS COMMITTEE Sanr-nrm Rmnr THE MINISTER OF WORKS AND Two-HUNDRKD AMD TBX8TV-FOURTH AND HOUSING AND PARLIAMENTARY T w o -H u n d r e d and TmsctY-Tarsn AFFAIRS (SHRI K. RAGHU RAM- R e p o r t s AIAH): I beg to move:
SHRI H. N. MUKHERJEE (Cal- "That this House do agree with cutta—North-east): I beg to present the Sixty-fifth Report of the Busi- the following Reports of the Public ness Advisory Committee present- Accounts Committee:— ed to the House on the 80th Octo- ber, 1976."
(1) Two Hundred and thirty- There is a printing mistake. Actually, fourth Report on Action Taken by for items 1 and 2 the total time Government on the recommenda- allotted is 2 hours. It is wrongly tions contained in their Two Hun- put as separately 2 hours. Subject dred and twenty-second Report on to this correction, I commend it to ‘Regularisation of Contingency Fund the House. Advances’ relating to the Ministry of Finance (Department of Eco- MR. SPEAKER: The question is: nomic Affairs). "That this House do agree with the Sixty-fifth Report of the Busi- (2) Two Hundred and thirty-fifth ness Advisory Committee presented Report on Action Taken by Gov- to the House on the 30th October, ernment on the recommendations 1976.” contained in their Two Hundred and seventeenth Report on Ac- The motion was adopted. counting and Procedural Matters relating to the Ministry of Finance (Department of Economic Affairs) and Ministry of Finance (Defence). 11.63 hrs. CONSTITUTION (FORTY-FOURTH AMENDMENT) BILL-contd. COMMITTEE ON THE WELFARE MR. SPEAKER: The House will OF SCHEDULED CASTES AND now take up further clause-toy-clause SCHEDULED TRIBES consideration of the Constitution FXFTY-SEVENTH REPORT (Forty-fourth Amendment) Bill. We are on clause 43 SHRI NTHAR LASKAR (Karim- ganj): I beg to present the Fifty- Clause 43—(Insertion of new article seventh Report (Hindi and English 257A)—contd. versions) of the Committee on the SHRI P NARASIMHA REDDY Welfare of Scheduled Castes and (Chdttoor): I beg to move; Scheduled Tribes on the Ministry of Works and Housing—Housing facili- Page 13, line 1,— ties for Scheduled Castes and Sche- before “Parliament" Insert— duled Tribes provided by the Delhi Development Authority in the Union "Notwithstanding anything to Territory of Delhi the contrary in clauses (1) a n d (2) supra,” (210) *3 Constitution KARTCKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill 14
J*age 18, lin e 34^ - tions, privileges and liabili- ties of the members of any faroe after “India” insert— or any contingent or unit tfctra of deployed under clause (1)
“if it is satisfied it is necessary during the period of sudh so to do or at the request of any deployment.” (476) State” (228)
SHRI N. SREEKANTAN NAIR SHRI K. MAYATHEVAR (Dindi- (QuOon): I beg to move: gul): I beg to move: Page 12, line 34,— Page 12, line 37,— (i) after “257A. (1)” insert— after “State” insert “after du* “Parliament by passing a consultation with that Stat* resolution in both Houses fcy a Government” (539) majority of the total member- ship of the House and a majority Page 12,— of not less than two-thirds of omit lines 38 to 43. (548) the members of the House present and voting allow”. SHRI SHANKAR DAYAL SINGH (ii)/or “may” substitute “to” (Chatra)' I beg to move: (285) Page 12 line 36,— SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA (Alipore): after “order” insert “and trea- I beg to move: son" (564) Page 12,— SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DAS MUNSI (Calcutta-South): I beg to for hnes 34 to 43, substitute— move: “257A. (1) The Government Page 12, line 37,— of India may deploy any armed force of the Union or any other after “State” insert— force subject to the control of the Union for dealing with any “on receipt of a report from grave situation of law and order the Governor to get any in any State, if the State con- armed force of the Union cerned seeks such deployment. or any other force in State.** (2) Any armed froce or other (587). force or any contingent or unit thereof deployed under clause Page 13, line 4,— (1) in any State shall act in add at the end— accordance with such directions as the State Government con- “and Parliament may with- cerned may issue and be subject draw such forces if it so to the superintendence or con- desire”. (600) trol of the State Government on any officer or authority sub- ordinate to the State Govern- SHRI N. SREEKANTAN NAIR ment." (475) (Quilon)- The text of my amend- ment is: Page 13,— “Parliament by passing a resolu- for lines 1 to 4, substitute— tion in both Houses by a majority *'(S) The State Government of the total membership of the shall specify the powers, func- House and a majority of not less G m rtttetion NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (44*fc Amdt.) BiU l6
[Shri N. Sreekantan Nair] powers to deal with those situations. I think the convention which has b ett than two-thirds of the members of followed so far and that was « healthy the House present and voting al- convention, is that on the request «f low". the State Government which is un- want that certain limitations should able to tackle a particular situation, » imposed on the powers of the the Centre may give help to that ivernment to send armed forces to State by deploying any of its armed ie States at any time. This is a forces and it is also the convention .»ry serious matter and may involve that during the deployment of those :fie Centre and the States in bicker- armed forces in that State, those ings and even fight. Therefore, it is armed forces remain within the ilways better that the right to deploy supervision and control of the State the armed forces of the Centre must Government. Here something is devolve on this Parliament and being suggested which is intended to it should be exercised only by two be written in the Constitution, which thirds majority of this House. If means that we are abandoning that the resolution is passed by the House convention altogether. What is the py a majority of the total member- reason for it? What is the situation ship of the House and a majority of which has caused the Government to pot less than two-thirds of the mem- come forward with such a proposed bers of the House present and voting, amendment which, I am afraid, what- only then the Government should ever the intention, just on the face of it. vitiates to some extent the principle Bend the armed forces. That is my of State autonomy. Although our am endm ent and I hope. Government will accept it. Constitution U not a federal Constitu- tion in that sense, there is an aspect SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA of our Constitution which certainly (Alipore): Sir, I am opposing this upholds the federal spirit. India has amendment to clause 43 and I am been described as 'a Union of States’ I moving our amendments perticularly, in the Constitution. If a law and 475 and 476. As Mr. Sreekantan order situation becomes serious in Nair has said just now, this clause 43 any particular State, the Governor of has got very serious implications and that State is empowered to send his the hon. Law Minister will, I am sure, report to the Centre and generally it explain to the House what has hap- is only on the receipt of the report pened to necessitate this kind of an from the Governor that the Centre explioit taking of powers by the decides whether it should intervene Government of India unless it is or not .1 do not want to recount past cases whether it be West Bengal or meant only for the duration of the whether it be Uttar Pradesh under the Emergency. But, I think, that is not then Chief Minister, Shri Kamalapathi the intention. The intention is to Tripathi or so many other States explicit taking of powers by the where the Governor submitted a re- Constitution As matters stand at port drawing the attention of the present under the existing Constitu- Centre to the fact that a serious de- tion, I would like to ask the Law terioration or break down or threaten- Minister whether the Centre or the ed break down of law and order was President has not already got ade- there and in his opinion the State quate powers to take necessary action Government with its resources was in case there is any serious threat to not in a position to tackle that. Then, or break down of law and order in it is open to thfe Central Government any State? Such situations have to give directives to that State Gov- arisen over the past years and, I ernment. Under the Constitution it think, the Centre has had no diffi- has powers in Part XI—rRelatiens culty In using its constitutional between the Union and the States. J 7 Constitution KARTIKA 10, 1890 (SAKA) (44th Arndt.) Bill 18
The State Government has to comply forces, there will be functioning, a with any directives given to it by the Central armed force or forces which Centre. And the Constitution lays will owe no kind of allegiance or have down that if it fails to comply with no obligation to the State Government such directives, then if the Central and but will be directly under the Government thinks it tiedessary, it Centre. I think some very unfortu- can dismiss that State Ministry, or it nate situation may arise which none can send its armed forces there if it of us would like. wants. There is nothing to prevent it in such a situation. But I am afraid that the amendment which is propos- I remember that when the Provin- ed would mean this. Consider a situa- cial Aimed Conslabulary revolted in tion where even the Governor has not Uttar Pradesh, it was perhaps a most thought it necessary to send such a senous situation of this type that we report to the Centre- Of course, you have had to face so far since Indepen- may feel that there may b2 some Gov- dence. And there, ultimately the ernor who is either inefficient or is Central armed forces had to be de- in collusion with some State Govern- ployed and they besieged the barracks ment which does not ask for Central of the Provincial Armed Constabulary intervention. These are very hypo- and foited them to surrender their thetical and far-fetched things. I do aims and so on. I do not know not think we have any instance of exactly what role was played that this type of ar governor because after time by the State Government, or the all, governors are appointed directly Government of that State at that by the President. Why does the Gov- time. At least the situation had gone ernment think that it does not have beyond the State where the Provin- adequate powers as it is? It can give cial Armed Constabularry had openly a directive, it can take action against revolted But, surely, under these pro ti\e State Government which does not visions of the Constitution there is comply with that advice and it can sufficient safeguard here for the Gov- act on the basis of the Governor’s re- ernor and for the State Government port even if the State Government also, to avoid such situation develop is not requesting the help of the mg, or to tackle such situations if armed forces and is continuing to go on they develop, if necessary by seeking on its own way; and there is nothing the assistance of the Centre. in the existing Constitution to prevent the Central Government, particularly during periods of Emergency, from taking any action. Therefore, 1 would Now, if I say that the passage of like to know why the Government is this clause 43 would create a suspicion laying this down in black-and-white m the public mind that it is meant to in writing into the Constitution, that deal wjtb only such contingencies the Centre must be given these powers where tlieie may be non-Congress to deploy its armed forces even if the Governments in the States, Shn State Government does not consider Gokhale may again say that I am be- that such a situation has arisen, or has ing uncharitable and so on But it is not asked for help; and also to lay inevitable that this suspicion will be down that armed forces deployed m created that they are arming them- that State will be directly under the selves against the possibility of non- control and supervision of the Centre. Congress Governments being voted to Does it not amount to visualizing a power m some State or States and situation in which there may be two that they want to keep this power parallel administrations functioning with them so that on a future occasion within a State? The State police, the if necessary, over the heads of the State armed police etc. will remain State Governments they can Intervene under tfcfe control of the State Gov- with the Central armed forces. Even ernment; and side by aide with those if such a suspicion is unfounded, Rf 19 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (4Mb Amdt.) BUI a o
fShrl Indrajit Gupta] You may *!y “of course, we would Shrj Gokhale will say it is unfounded, not like »l**y* to go to the extent of what is the great necessity of this dismissing a Ministry, a Ministry way haste to put this in the Constitution, not be so bad that it should be dismis- I would like to know, and unneces- sed, but there may be a law and order sarily give some people at least a situation which it cannot tackle." handle to create this suspicion in the Then, what is the Governor doing? people’s minds. I think some State He will report to you. If it is a State Government also, the Ministries m Government run by your party, surely the States, even if they are Congress- it will seek your help, if it is a State run Ministries, would not like this Government run by some other party, very much. Perhaps, in the present then also the Governor is there. So, situation I do not know whether they you should not give an impression to have made any representations, or the country that you are loading your they may not have made any repre- gun with ammunition to use some- sentations, I can well understand that time later, whenever necessary, against in the prevailing situation in the coun- some leftist, or Congo run, or DMK try of emergency and all that. But I run State Government or something am sure many State Governments like that. If you are so confident that would not like this suspicion of their th e non-Congress parties are anyhow political colour. finished politically, there is no chance1 of th e ir ever coming back---- Has anything happened up till today THE MINISTER OF LAW, to warrant such a drastic new clause JUSTICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS being put into the Constitution? (SHRI H. R. GOKHALE): Why? Then, what is the Governor for, what are his powers for and what about SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: That the relationship between the Centre is what your members say “we have and the States? There are hundreds only to go to the polls and the opposi- of ways of dealing with the situation. tion parties would be smashed to In the past, you have not hesitated to smithereens”. dismiss the Ministries which you have the power to do, on the report of the SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: That is Governor that they cannot tackle the true law and order problem. You remem- ber the stormy scenes m this House SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Then when the first United Front Ministry why are you taking these powers, in West Bengal was dealt with in 1967. arming yourself against your own I am not talking about the second Congress-Ministries in the States? UF Ministry, but the first UF Minis- That has still worse implications. So, try, which was dismissed from office, I would humbly suggest, apart from on the basis of the report from Gov- the fact that you have got adequate ernor Dharam Vira, that a law and powers at present and all that, this order situation has arisen which the does go against the spirit of that much UF Government is not getting over, federalism which we have willingly rather the UF Government would like understood and accepted in our Cons- to encourage such things Did any- titution, and also the principle of thing prevent you from acting there? State autonomy. Was there any lack of power with the Centre? Did you not, simply on the I do not want a scene where the basis of Dharam Vira's report, with State police force and the Central one stroke of the President's pen, an- police force might come into a con- nounce that this Ministry is dismissed? frontation with each other. It would What was the difficulty? There was be a horrible state of affairs. Any- no difficulty. That is the constitu- way, it would be like two parallel tional fwwer that you have at present. armed police forces functioning with- 21 Constitution KABTQCA 10, 1896 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Sill
In a single State under different super- factorily and adequately under the- aion and different control. Is this a existing powers and the existing con- desirable thing? I think it is fraught ventions. Therefore, I would requast with great danger. the hon. Minister not to insist on this. SHRI PRIYA RANJAN DAS Because, what is the sudden reason or MUNSI: Lebanon. pressing urgency to put in such a drastic provision in the Constitution, SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: I do not which I think will lead to all sorts of know about that. Therefore, the complications and may create unneces- amendment which we are moving is sary fears and suspicions in the minds that “the Government of India may of the people in many States? So, I deploy any armed forces of the union, press my amendment. or any other force subject to the con- trol of the Union for dealing with any ( s r a r r ) : grave situation of law and order in aft, w n r 1 3 ftiftfapT tr t any State, if the State concerned seeks PfH ftifaf ^rr such deployment”. Here, as Shri Gok_ hale knows, the State concerned seek- S — ing such deployment depends prima- “ 257V. ( 1 ) t o r rily on the report of the Governor, who is anyhow your nominee. Then, the second pail of the amendment t it irnfir «ft , ment and acting only under the direct ft wra w p ri *r tftfiwfcrtar orders of the Centre. t o % w t tfrfar f i *r ?rnnfW I think this convention or practice afar*, w f a F r v afa?r, which has been followed is a healthy one. None of us want such a situation *r«if«RPraafaPT- sif] % ft* f , war f^r fir$ nft gf-fsm?T fsra ^t^WRPf»TfrtT ^ W f 5TTT ? lft *rFTT t t f f t 'T IW ^ vb? % TO «n7TT ^5 TT % I *mft 3ft ^ * i * 3 ?ft*ff % 5ft v t «rfc htt w «r2r % t o I , ?ft % *H5 ^ ?5pr< ?[t ^nTTTjT i f ? %, 3*r % *rwr *n*$rr f m *r , ** % wit % w ft % mi s ir sp$r «r^t ^tt M?pr t • v p t $ i *re$ It *rf*T*ranr *r aft *s - SHRI PR1YA RAftJAN DAS MUNSI gfcft T#r f , *ft *rre *rt (Calcutta South) Mr Speaker, Sir, per- WTPT VlfGI ^rTT ^lf»IT I W *I*ft haps this is the most sensitive clause oI the present Amendment Bill which re- * t wtft *r T«r% f fatft *ft ?rw v t | quires discussion on a much more ela- ift ? cRf ^ ^rePTr*ft 3* * ^ % borate wav I wish and hope that the * * f e % *T?5TFW=r I fa ?*r Law Minister will reply to it consider- ing the mind of the Members of the w Jr‘‘rr^tv fftf” ^r »ft sfti Hoube and also considering that the v rc r ^ r i?«f? ^fcT^m t , tfV ?r?f?f?T Members are not only speaking ac. cording to their political motives, nJifsrr | , ??« n f *rrft % ^ rm fh : but also on the fate of the Tratfrfsw ^ «r^ ft It is tiue that nobody can write off from the record of history that people * ?rnr «rtr src % m«r «pw arfpr reioiced over freedom like anything because they got political freedom from the Bntish rule But they could not * *M tor ftfir <^ft aft % sleep happily because their brothers friends and other relations were killed mercilessly 2 5 Constitution KARTIKA 20, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill
You know, the great man not only of which came forward to incite the- our country but of the whole world police in a political manner and to use who laid down his life on 30 th January it for their political purpose was the 1948 for this great cause is Mahatma C.P.I.(M) in West Bengal. The mo- Gandhi. After considering all these ment Shri 'Jyoti Basu became the Home aspects, we find that India, that is Bha- Minister, I remember, the speech made rat—we caH. like this in our Constitu- by him w^hile addressing the police tion—no doubt gives a picture to the constables in Lai Bazzar. He told world that she is a country with high them, “"you are the weapon and you culture, rich traditions and having a are the part and parcel of society. unity of all religions. But don’t you You have to think of the purpose for agree with this fact that the forces which We have to come to power and which worked under British rule you have to act for that.” He made divided the country on the basis them politically-motivated and insti- of religion, caste and so on? But gated some of his officials to form a- a new type of force has emerged after political type of organisation within the Second World War, and during the the police. I h av e seen with my own last decade, all over the globe, that is eyes how the police was used for a the force of destablisation. These were political purpose. They were asked to- engineered by the imperialist forces, responed to the demands of the CPI(M) neo-jcolonial forces and other alied people. If there was somebody who forces. was regarded as non-CPI(M) follower, he was advised to he transferred. This Is it not true that in India on many is what happened. occasions, whether it was the chauvnis- Even then, at that time, I found that tic problem in Assam which we called Shri Dharam Vira, whether people the linguistic problem; whether it was may like it or not. did have the powers the riot between the Bengalis and the within the purview of the Constitution Assamese; whether it was the riot in to communicate it to the Centre and Andhra Pradesh for so-called sad slo- take necessary action and necessary gan of separation: whether it was the steps to save the State from the tyran- matter of P.A.C. revolt in U.P.: whe- ther it was the problem of Naxalite ny of CPI(M) rule. What happened movement in West Bengal; whether it afterwards? Even when Shri Dharam was the Nav Nirman agitation in Vira's report was accepted in Delhi and Gujarat and a few little disputes like, the forccs were deployed there, even the Cauvery river dispute or the when the PDA Government could not Narmada river dispute, every time, function which was a combination of the* fomentation, the incitement, defectors, there was a tremendous mass came from a parochial or regio- upsurge in the State, not against the nal or chauvnistic angle? It is true CPI(Mj —not that they liked the that people out of their sentiments CPI(M)—but against the method and would like to express their views but manner in which the Government was there was always a certain group be- changed, the method and manner in hind them, a fascist group, which was which the Governor’s report was secur- against the interest of the nation and ed, the method and manner in which the forces of stabilisation. the C.R.P. was installed and the method and manner in which the police was acting. No one can deny that. I do not fully agree with the views expressed by Shri Indraiit Gupta. I The people’s upsurge has to be res- do not want to add anything. The Law ponder to in a different fashion. For- Minister will answer that. But I will tunately, our leader, Mrs. Indira gtve my own view. It is unwise to say Gandhi at that time gave a call in the that It was J.P. who first gave the call country within the Congress Party for of revolt to the police. The first party genuine basic economic changes and 7 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (44th Amdt.) B ill 2$
[Shri Priya {Ranjan Das Munsl] while refugees started coming, w m the hyprocites who were with the lef- not the situation dealt with very tist forces and allied forces were ex- effectively and efficiently?. posed. They could not play their politi- cal game in a big way. That is how we The only point to which the Law fought the situation. 1 do not agree Minister made a reference was that with the view that the sitution in West through the deployment of the CRP Bengal was tackled by the CPI(M) or etc. sometimes the question of going by the army. The situation in West to a court of law can be avoided. For Bengal was tackled by the political that simple reason, are you going to wisdom of Mrs. Indira Gandhi in 1969 include it in the Constitutional guide- which responded to the call of the peo- lines* If so, how are you going to ple, the call of the nation, and comple- satisfy the people? The whole ap- tely exposed the hypocrites and a new proach should be how the people will atmosphere was built up. I agree that look at it and not what you want to if there is a mass upsurge in a State do. The people will look at it criti- even by the provocation of certain poli- cally and will say that what is being tical forces and the forces of de-stabil- done is not in their interests. For ex- sation, it has to be countered not by the ample, if you look at the behaviour C.R.P. but it has to be countered by the of the BSF—of course they are soldiers mass upsurge of the progressive forces. of our country and they defend the What happened to the J.P.’s movement? country, but the literacy in this coun- try has been such that it has not pro- Have you been able to stop Jaya- moted good behaviour among these prakash Narain’s activities through forces of the country. The function- the Police? if the Police was so active ing of some of the forces, especially and the Q|tP was so active, why did the CRP and the BSF in some parts they allow a man like L. N. Mishra of the country has been inhuman and to be massacred? It is not that; it certainly not such as would meet with was the political inspiration of the the general approval of the Govern- - Bihar people and it was the leader- ment itself. I have seen certain ship of Mrs. Gandhi which directly parallel forces functioning. They gave a feeling to the people that these function independently, and automati- are the dark forces which we have to cally a clash of interests occurs, ques- combat. The moment the Govern- tions of superiority complex and in- ment gets a feeling that we can deal feriority complex crop up and pro- with the situation and stop it only blem« are created for the State. by arming ourselves with more ad- ministrative measures to use the Police and the Army, I may tell you In 1965—possibly Mr. Nanda was that it will only invite more ills and Home Minister at that time—1 had it is not going to serve the cause for seen m Calcutta hundreds of groups which it is intended. My submission under the Eastern Command of the to the Law Minister would be that the Army, the Police and even the State Governor is already entitled to submit Chief Minister, all representing the a report to the President m all mat- desire of the people ot the area, and ters to the Centre. Up till now. can the people accepted them and the peg- you show me a single example where ple really brought the situation under the report of the Governor could not command. Shri Nanda went as a pre- be helpful to the Centre? The Centre pfesentative of the Central Govern- can, if necessary send additional ad- ment and the people thought that if visers or depute more officials. When a Central Minister has come to see to Mr. S. S. Ray was placed as Minister control riot areas, why should we not in charge of West Bengal, being a support him. So, the people, at that Minister of the Cabinet, to deal with time, responded very well. These are the delicate situation in West Bengal, all our past experiences. 29 Constitution KARTUCA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill 30
So, it does not require that amount time they get the chance, they would of caution. X ligree on the point do something to suppress the activi- made by to* Law Minister ties of the Government in a manner that the locoes of de-stabilisation desired by them. That is why, I make may do such things as even provoking this appeal. Make a provision for some regional sentiments. I don’t deny strengthening the hands of the Gover- this, but this is not the manner in nor. On receipt of a report from the which it should be taclked. That is Governor, this may be done. My only why I have a moved an amendment amendment is to insert after ‘State', opposing this. The manner in which ‘•on receipt of a report from the it should be done is this. Since fie Governor to get any armed force of Governor is a representative of the the Union or any other force in Central Government, you can give him State". extra powers to act independently and to give you a special report to enable you to deal with the situation In conclusion I would only say that in a manner which will be within the Parliament may withdraw such forces purview of'th e Constitution and will if they so desire. You have said that not be challenged in a court of law. Parliament will regulate, by law, the You can do that. We have made so powers of the members of force, etc. many provisions which cannot be We may also say that Parliament may challenged in a court df law, but there withdraw such forces, if they so de- should not be such a blanket provi- sire. Also you have not specified sion in the Constitution that any time what will be the position of the Stales. the Centre desires, it may send the Suppose tomorrow, a part of West Army or this and that. As I have Bengal is in chaos and an elected said, the moment we say that the Par- Assembly is there. I agree, you may liamentary democracy i£ supreme or send armed forces there. But what that the Parliament is supreme, the will be the status of the Assembly supremacy of Parliament means the there? Will it be dissolved or kept supremacy of the democracy of the in suspended animation?, All these country and the supremacy of the issues have to be spelt out very clear- democracy of the country means that ly beyond any doubt, so that this a particular party may be in power Amendment would be approved in a today but it may not be in power to- manner where people will not mis- morrow. May be, the Centra is being understand you. Otherwise, 1 can tell ruled by the Congress Party today and you what will happen? Some of these it may be that in the States there is bureaucrats are not loyal to the cause Coalition Government. We cannot of the people. We know how they avoid it under a Parliamentary sys- had protected the RSS and the Anand tem; whether it is a bipartite or a Marg criminals for the last 20 years tripartite system, it will exist. In or so, giving them shelter and alse that context, the actual implication of the information that they were being this Clause, the Interpretation of this watched by the I.B. people and that Clause, will not strengthen the unity they should leave Delhi, and so on. of this country. We will only give a I know, a few officials in this country lead to disruption, because, we are were constantly helping the Anand not committed enough to stop all the Margis by asking them to leave Delhi, activities of the monopoly press which to leave U.P., and so on as they were may take advantage of the situation. being watched by the I.B. Do you What do we find even about this cen- think that all these bureaucrats have sored press The programmes announc- become politically tuned for greater ed by the Prime Minister are not evolution of socialism? Do you think being highlighted every day except ^ that they have become tuned to act the Government text. Therefore, according to what our Prime Minister these forces are still active and at any preaches? No. There are enemies within. And you are giving this power 31 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (44th Arndt.) BUI
[Shri Priya Ranjan Das Munsij qt# (vrsftj*) : «*nr in the hands of those enemies. It is *n«ft *ft rsraftar ^?rr % they who will execute these things; ftranr t o ffvftgre % ***** * they will interpret this in a difteient manner K i srcftaretf fa ff St ^ % t p T f t qi?ff I would, therefore, request the Law tffatrnr v t qmtarc ? Minister to consider my amendments irstfV srtf t 5Tm*r ^ tfU tt^ After the 1967 elections, some of the States were ruled by the Opposition s t o t t eft w tw tx «rr*fr Parties Even at that time there was fcrrc far «ft i no example of any State Government ^ ^ * t irftrvrc «rr i having disobeyed the instructions of the Central Government Now, by m x * s*nr «rr«rr fa *rt this Amendment, you ate providing v s i i ft fa $ z x ^ for parallel forces one, State forces, srfsnFR tot 1 1 and the other, Central forces This will create confusion, not only among ^ f a tsr t o % the Suponntendents of Police m the srfsrarrc $ z x s ttt ^ *r, sffrff % feff State*, but also among the people *r prfsnrr? $>*ft i «ft fsnr- India is a democratic country and it cannot be said that at all times, the T3PT z m JT?9ft ^ fa M forsrf Centre and the States will be ruled % tN% % ^ *ro«nff ^>t w s tr only by one Party, mavbe, some- ^t ^ r r i x m stpt ^ fa %q§ times the Centre may be ruled by one Party and a State or ,ome States cm rv %■ cft eft m ft ?mrar by another Party At that tune, if fjft ft i srreft 5f t t w % r the Central Government gives one ??rft qr«ff # *ft direction and the State Government gives another direction, there will be fSTPT f %ftT 'qf^TT ^ I a lot of confusion Even now under the present Constitution, the Central spF^ff «Ft f^FTT W T t^TT Government have a right to dismiss a State Government if, at any time, ?r*w^ | f a ^ ^ m there is a serious breakdown of law *TT% wrf?cT WTfqcT W!XT and order in that state Otherwise also, with the present advancement ?r^*r, ?r> ^ | i in science and technology, at any time the Centre can send then forces to a State, without any loss, of time, m *sfV gfa c w m 8® & % to maintain law and order By this Amendment, I am sorry to sa\ the 5 fr pTT i w fti mx State will become glorified municipa- T|&*ftT*s7tarfaTO5f lities under the control of the Centre ^ fair ^nr | a qft SW ?ff^T For these reasons, I oppose clause 43 fa fa kuizlft on behalf of my party and myself 31 ComOi&Utm KAST2KA 10, 18ft (SARA) (44th Amdt.) BUI 34
1 1 v w t t ^vr 3f wsrc f t 1 fw»€lf 5w t % ^ ft ’Pp ^ . . gv. J*-.. — ^ » iM -. -_^__- . -< ^ *w » iqtfT (pr^l^ir tft w m tftf $wr vw i*nf v w f f ffif Hfr vr^TTT i an m n r inSh ft flw^f tf*r pt f*» ^ r tj fW t ?rtf vr »ft u t ? > r r f«rr ft, ft, « R ^ T v f t *PT w w ffiw w ^nft KT'f^Wnf ¥T ft HT f*Rft «fT ft, tfft $TT gfa«rt * ftffT 11 «rf*Tf?t f t 1 tft ^tft ¥ f Tft % ftr mfpvrnf V T f i w r ^ 1 «rH*fcr % «ft§ ftwr-ftST tfttff VT fn r ft I W3& lr tftft W t *tf 1 tft>P««rT % ?T?W tfft tf3ft fl^W 5t I w v r t w w r % ^®rr wrnr Hijf ft*u 1 * f *wwrt »t »rf tft *fr ft? tffa* 5m fvr^PT ft fr ^ fif snwrtfY tfft *fft tft tft m qnr % nix ?r^f tffiwR *f vrrf*m t t ^ir 5f w r ^rr «r wr t fiRrft $ itfihr tft *mn? tff, ^ 1 wi ^t ’fnw ^r*r, ^tr ?»n'V * f r sfb% tft *mr tft «rtr writ tft^riftr r a n r ^ r r m % ff w fo VT lr **rtft *rtt tft vrw w * t * | , *% hw tft impr |, faatft TW *ITt£ I %cm ^TT^ br tft **GTT ^ # rrwr tfrrr > % % m sw m ^ amr tft ft f r h t v r TT^aff % ’TfTTiPI % $T fftT ^Ttft qfaife tft qf^fTT tft fT* 5f % T^t ft nrwrr ww?nfw ftnrr 1 wt ^ srawr % «n?r the Government that instead of solv- ^ fllA KWWWI | ing the problem between the states # 1 * $ m& the Centre, we need not intro- iftr ^ w% tft «nro 1 1 # duce any new amendment whtah WT^IT ft? w fcr ^ ^Fn VTT«ff tft |*F?r may create troubles between the Centre and the States. That ia what m k # <«F^r ft ffwtft . [Shri K. Mcyathevar] Therefore, we should not concen- Then with regard to the consol of trate more and mftre powers in the the State Government machinery, do hands of the -Centra) Government. you think that you have forgotten When we are having some reappct to that we are having a Governor aft your the quasi-federal nature so far as agent lor the Central Government certain provisions of our constitution and the President of India? Do you are concerned, we should n«t beOome think the Governor is having no absolutely unitary in nature. tVe must power at all? Do you suspect honest- have at least partly federal and part- ly or dishonestly or in any manner ly unitary constitution. that the Governor is having no power at all to make any report about the State administrative machinery if it Now, not only the Central Govern- breaks down so far as the law and ment, but this Parliament and • the order problem is concerned? There- President are empowered with all fore, you are controlling almost all the powers to dismiss a State Gov- the powers to dismiss even the local ernment. Therefore, all the powers Government under certain provisions you want, to dismiss and take over of the Constitution. That is how you the State if it breaks down constitu- have dismissed the State Government tionally or if it becomes bankrupt of Tamil Nadu. Therefore, this pro- financially or if the State Govern- vision and introduction of an amend- ment fails to administer the State in ment under clause 43 is quite un- accordance with the provisions of the necessary and unwarranted under the Constitution, you have got. There- circumstances fore, I put it before the Government to drop this amendment altogether. We talk much about more and more powers to the States I have read in many papers reports of not I want to put forward the last point only Opposition Parties which are rul- in the interest of the ruling party ing in certain States but even those and the Government of India. People Chief Ministers who belong to the will suspect that all the powers are Congress Party are demanding more being taken away from the State and more powers for the States. That Governments. You are reducing the is the real state of affairs in India. poweis of the State Government to Now we are taking even education less than the powers with the Muni- to the concurrent list. cipal Committees- and the local pan- chayats The State Governments will not bp in a position to carry out the programmes under the 20-point pro- Some hon. Members from the Con- gramme if they are not allowed to gress Party spoke about river water continue with the powers that they disputes I appreciate it except on have at present I, therefore, request one point He said that this is in- the Central Government to drop tended to solve the problems of river clause 43 from this amendment. They waters disputes like the Kaveri, may carry on with other amend- Krishna, Godavari and Narmada. So ments We support tljose fully but many river water disputes are pend- not clause 43 We may not be mi*- ing. It is true that it is the duty of understood We are for one nation the Central Government to solve and national unity. them but the immediate problems, very essential problems are not taken into consideration in the 44th Amend-? THE MINISTER OF LAW, JUS- ment Bill. Instead of that we have TICE AND COMPANY AFFAIRS created unnecessary problems. (SHRI H. R. GOKHALE); The' com- V Constitution KARTIKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill meat* on this clause require, accord* can deal with the law and order situ- tog to me, a brief answer. But be- ation ordinarily arising in the State fore I do that, it is necessary to and only when the magnitude of that understand the scope of the clause. gravity of situation is such that Cen- tral Government's intervention be- An impression was given, when- comes necessary, then this power can ever there is a law and order prob- be exercised. It is not that we have lem in the State it is intended that no experience in this regard. It is power should be given to the Central true that the object, the intention of Government to interfere in such a the Government will be even for the law and order situation. That is not future after this clause becomes part correct. The clause itself points out of the Constitution not to exercise as —“for dealing with any grave situa- far as possible without consulting the tion of law and order in any State”. State Government. Who likes con- In the first instance it must be a frontation with the State Govern- grave situation of law and order. It ment whether the Government in the- is only then that these powers can be State may be of this party or of any invoked and the armed forces ol the other party on a matter of solving Union can be sent to a State. It is grave law and order situation for not intended that in the case of an which this clause is meant? The sus- ordinary law and *order situation picion that the Central Government which the States are supposed to deal wil] like to seize power from the State with themselves, there will be use of Government paiticularlv with refer- powers under this Clause. In fact, I ence to the Stat? where the Govern- might go even a step further and sav ment is not of the Congress Party is that it is only in rare cases where the to be argued when you cannot trust gravity of the situation is so great the Central Government for taking that the deployment of union forces an objective view of the situation. is necessary, that the power under This suspicion may arise if you can- this clause can be exercised. not trust the Central Government for anything else The Central Govern- Someone whispered just now— ment has the confidence and trust of who is to decide? It is not a question the people all over the country. It to decide When ivower is given to becomes the duty of the Central Gov- the Central Government, the Central ernment to see that not only in res- Government is to decide and It is not pect of grave law and order situation, necessary to be apologetic about it —in fact I read out the other day a because what is the cause for suspi- s^eci^c provision which we are not cion? If the Central Government amending now which is there in the can be given the power in respect of Constitution —but al«o it imposes many other matters where the Cen- a duty on the Central Government tral Government can be trusted for to take care of situation of this type a judicious and proper exercise of aii^in" anvwhere in the country. these powers, I do not see "the reason why in a matter affecting the -grave law and order situation, the Central 12 I n . Government cannot be trusted.. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Is not The wordings in the clause are Article 355 wi-’e enough .to cover “grave law and order situation”. everything? Thery* is some meaning, to the word “grave”. Certainly the powers of the SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: It does not SState* relating to the law' and order, confer any power. There !»*vhich is* a State subjeet, are not specific power. * affected in a sense that the States 39 Constitution NOVKMBS* 1, ttM <4*h Amdt) Bill 4** ernment to talcs up a position agafrut th e particular view which it the SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: But view taken by large majority o f t h e yero did not have th is a ll these people in that State. And it magr not yeopfl. You carried on a ll these be necessary to allow such an agita- years without any difficulty. Then tion to go on. But, in spite of th is, what is the need now? What are some people feel that it is neces- the governors doing? sary to do so. It is only the Central Government sitting at a dis- SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: I w ill tance and taking an objective view of cone to all the points. There is no the whole situation that can save need tor excitement. I was saying really the State Government from about Article 355. It imposes a duty. this embarrassment in which they There must be a corresponding are not in a position to deploy their power to enforce that duty. With forces to meet the law and order great respect to hon. Members. I situation. Therefore, the idea is not would say that there has been some to disturb— {interruptions). misapprehension, may be, genuine misapprehension regarding the ffhre m m f t * : «rarar oft, pc#«n of the President to supersede W f W * rft % fw r I , up the Ministry by imposing President’s rule. No doubt those powers are Art iwtft f i dftr there. What is the use of the argu- wrr— S $0*1 m ent, you do it only by dismissing the itfwfR * fiptf M inistry or, you do it by imposing President’s rule? In fact this argu- Twffwr *rrsrr n*n I *n*r — ment was anticipated when he spoke tprrt rn*HTTT flwro saying that Mr. Gokhale may argue a T fw n f njibft %i\7 that there may be cases where it is not necessary to dismiss a ministry w v srfrpff apiTfr ? but it may be necessary to deal with tit w rvrr wr. a specific law and order situation. w r ®p^*t—# w vr *$fr- What is anticipated is quite correct. There may be cases where this power ’TT^TT ^ | «lone is not enough. In fact that power under Art. 356 may have to be SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: My hon. utilised. We want to deal with a friend is a staunch supported of specific situation without dismissal cf Hindi. So am I. But the fact remains the ministry or imposing President’s that in spite of the fact that Hindi rule. I cannot appreciate the entreme has been accepted as a national argument, dismiss a ministry and language---- (Interruptions). Impose President’s rule, and don’t have this power. That is not an argument which I am able to under- sft W!W ffcfe: stand. Of course, regarding misuse s m * me ww *:r of power, I can say, misuse of power, like any other power, can lead to a ? bad situation. It is true we can trust the State Government to bring about qwo %R*Q li m a : WTT a situation within their own power to i wfir see that we don't have to use the power. I agree there. Take for w m r fa % tfr w x wfrfsrr f , instance a case of an agitation or a tfter-wr iw r I , I f r law aim order situation arising out o f sa n e disputes about language. It | . * 4 w fr r | is embarrassing for the Central Gov- w f «ffr f h t i t 41 CoJuttiuUon KABTXKA 10, 18M (SARA) (44th Am&t.) Bill 42
f( f ¥ vsrfll »uff spw t w rf^ , body, difficulties have arisen and agi- tations have taken place when, the State Government itself naturally, at « p tn f t 1 1 **r% fa* vpjw a particular point of time, is senti- fcAre* im f**r >fT fmw «p t avfr mental and is being embarrassed that they have to use the law and order 1 1 |rf*R f f *mp» vnfr firfpw forces against their own people. It A «m imft | w fw* «rnr may be that, in such a grave situation, it is necessary for the Central Gov- hirt *Nr arff $ 1 t o * w ernment to take an'objective view m w m fc . . . of the situation only if it becomes necessary and not on ordinary—I am emphasising on the words ‘ordi- *ft ih rc m m f tn .* 3«% f r a said about the President’s Rule; let «pr«f*r# * r s * t aft them read Art. 356. They will find that that power is for a different WTJft $®r I , ?T§ fPffft STS situation where there is a total break- *. , down, for example, of the constitu- tional machinery. But, we can visua- MR. SPEAKER: He wants that lise a situation where there is no such word to be added. breakdown, and it is not necessary to use the power under Art. 356 to SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: Sir, no- dismiss a ministry or to have a Presi- body can dispute that steps must be taken against the treason wherever dent’s Rule. And yet, it is necessary to deal with a particular specific the treason is. The point only is whether, when we are dealing with situation. That is the object and I a subject which is quite different, the should appeal to my hon. friends to introduction of the word ‘treason’ is have no suspicion because I give this assurance that it is not intended to relevant at all. I am entirely in agreement with him that Government meet an ordinary law and order situa- tion. Hnd Parliament should do the maxi- mum possible to see that treason is not allowed to spread in this country. MR. SPEAKER; Discussion on clause 43 has concluded. We shall My objection is only to the inclu- now go to clause 44. There are some sion of this word in this particular amendments. Clause. I am not against his senti- ments or against his views. The other 0SOM 44— Amendment of article thing I was dealing with was that 1 believe in this fact that it is’ better Y 811) that sooner or later, in the entire country, we have the language, if you SHRI O. V ALAGESAN (Tbtrt- accept Hindi language as the national tani): I beg to move: language, as a national language of Page 13,— this country. The fact remains, how- ever, that there are areas for reasons, which are sometimes sentimental and, omit lines 11 to 18. (33S) sometimes, arising out of fear, which SHRI DHARNIDHAR DAB: Z be* think that something is imposed on to move: 'them. Because of this fact that we do aot want to impose anything on any- Page 13,— 43 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1B76 (44th Amdt.) Bill 44
[Shri Dharnidhar Das] for you to remove him in “the interest for Clause 44 substitute— of administration. Now it could pot “article 311 of the Constitution be done. This particular provision is sAiall be omitted.” (845) protecting the government servant and the result has. only bred indis- SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: I beg cipline among them. Discipline has to move: almost disappeared from our adminis- tration. When emergency came a i a P a g e 13,— boon, some sort of discipline Jtfftd omtt lines 6 to 10. (477) been restored. Even now there is fear whether this discipline wfU last P a g e 13,— when the emergency is lifted. No jor lines 13 to 17, substitute— less a person than the Home Minister of the Government of India has said “Provided that where it is pro- only the day before, that old, anti- posed after such inquiry, to im- national forces were again surfacing pose upon him any such penalty, in spite of the emergency. Even such penalty may be imposed on when the emergency lasts, it is quite the basis of the evidence adduced possible that emergency might lose during such inquiry after giving its edge or wear off and indiscipline, such person adequate opportunity inefficiency might once again raise of making representation on the their heads. Clean and efficient ad- penalty proposed:’’ (478) ministration is a must for all times; SHRI O. V. ALAGESAN: I would it is not something which could be have been happy if the hon. Mover called a luxury which could be had had come with the suggestion to drop only at the time of emergency; we altogether article 311 from the Cons- should have it in normal times as titution. You will remember that well. If that is to be possible, this this article represents a charter to the clause should change. The amend- ICS men who were considered to be ment of the hon. Mover almost takes the steel frame of the British Empire it for granted that a second oppor- tunity is a must, is an inalienable in India. This was intended to pro- righ* of the Government servant. tect them because our revolution was Why should he assume it? non-violent and we opted for conti- nuity and we accepted that this con- cept might be put in the Constitu- Actually he takes it away from tion itself. Whatever historical neces- article 311 (2) and having taken away, sities might have been there when he brings it again in the form of a the Constitution was made, no such new proviso which assumes as if the necessity or compulsion is there now. second opportunit> is an inalienable We now want a result-oriented, clean right Now, there is no need for that. «nd efficient administration. Now it Now, I am told that new experi- is not possible for you to take action ments are being conducted *n the ad- even against a single individual, ministration, in some Government however small an official of the departments, in Government Corpo- Government of India he may be. I rations, etc. Where the old fedual do not want the executive to take fringes have been done away with, arbitrary action against the govern- even the Assistants are not there, ment servants without a proper one officer takes the files to another enquiry. The man accused should be officer and this sort of trend has set given a proper opportunity to defend in. This trend should be encouraged. himself. If it is established beyond We should encourage this result- any doubt that he was a man guilty oriented trend because it will ulti- of indiscipline, corruption and given mately help the administration to be to inefficiency, it should be posible run more effectively and more 45 Constitution KARTIKA 10, 1888 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill 46 efficiently. So, Sir, all these things— officers in the key positions and be to hold an enquiry, to allow a man can also remove them and particular* to adduce evidence, to record and ly when a new President assumes enquire and allov a man to have any the Office, he can remove many of the amount of self-defenece—can be pro- old officials in the key positions and vided under the ordinary rules appoint his own partymen. There is of administration and regulations. no such constitution safeguard for the Why shou d they be exalted to the Government servants. Then the position and status of an Article in Constitution of Soviet Union also does the Constitution? Why is it necessary? not have such a provision, rather it The administration can take care of has a provision under Article 130 that it. It need not be that this protection any person can be severely dealt with should be included in the Constitution when he goes against labour disci- itse1.! So, my amendment is that pline' and when he goes against the the new proviso which the Hon’ble ‘socialist way of life’. The Constitu- mover seeks to introduce, which tion of the Chinese Republic says that seems to concur with the existing the government servants must be Constitutional provision, be removed loyal to the people’s democratic sys- from the Constitution and need not tem and they must serve the inte- be there. rests of the people. Only in the Indian Constitution we find this sort of provsion for people who constitute SHRI DHARNIDHAR DAS (Man- hardly 1 per cent of the total popula- galdai): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I have tion. There hi ? many more employees moved an amendment for the outright outside the government, in companies deletion of article 311. Here, in this and other services. Their services House, all these days, we have been are governed by service rules, stand- showing concern for removing all ing orders, etc. Adequate safeguards road-blocks in the way of bringing for Government servants can and about a social-economic revolution, In should be provided by enacting of other words, for socialist transforma- Law or in some other way. For it tion of our economy. Now, the main Constitutional provision is not neces- road-block is this bureaucracy. It sary. When the government is does mean a few individuals, it means elected by the majority of the people, many individuals at different levels it must be able to carry out the pro- in the administrative system. I do grammes in the interests of the not find such a clause in any of the people without any hindrance by the Constitutions that I have gone officers. The people are very mucn through. For instance, take the enthusiastic in their support of the American Constitution. There is a emergency and the Consti- system known as 'spoils system*. That tution (Forty-fcurth Amend- means' the President can appoint all ment) Bill. During the emergency, 4 7 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1*76 (44& Amdt) £Hl 4$
[Shri Dharnidhar Das] interests of Goveromant servants bo** officer* who were recalcitrant, anti- cause tribunals will not fe e l MNpM- democratic and hindering the imple- sible to the government mentation of the radical programmes erode the loyalty of (he government of the government have been dismis- servants. Obviously, a governmen t sed or suspended and discipline has without loyal officers committed t» been brought about. This has been the cause of socialist tauudbrmatlan. liked by the people very much. So, cannot implement the radical socio- this article Sll should be deleted. I economic programmes So, I request would like to quote what Pandit the Law Minister to consider deletion, Jawahar Lai Nehru said about of this article 311. bureaucracy: SHRI S. M. BANERJEE (Kanpur): “Of course, the government’s Sir, really I could not quite follow business is to help. That is what the arguments of the hon. member the Government is for. I do not who preceded me. I do not know deny that. It must help, but it is what is their worry and why they one thing to help and quite another are so much upset over article 311. to boss. Inevitably, this tendency In fact, the Civil Services (Classifica- to boss comes not so much at top tion, Control and Appeal) Rules were levels—perhaps sometimes even designed actually out of article 311. there—but lower down you go, the When this article was being amended petty official becomes not the petty in th e year 1963, all th e Central Gov- but a big boss.” ernment employees’ organisations and That day our Prime Minister, Mrs. the Members of Parliament of this Indira Gandhi also referred to the House irrespective of their party affi- sabotage of our cooperative farming liations whether it was late lamented programme. It is not only because Shri Krison Menon or Shri H. V. of the vested interests. Of course, Kamath or myself or Or. Singhvi and vested interests did it in their own others, had objected to any curtail- interest, but they worked in collusion ment of the rights given to the Cen- with officials who were responsible tral Government employees under for implementing such programmes fh Article 311. Now, w hat is the amend- the administration. So, they sabotaged ment which is being asked for by the th is very important programme of the Government in this Billl? In article government which would have 311 o f the Constitution, in clause changed the entire agrarian economic (2)—the words "and whose It structure in th e country on a radical is proposed, after such inquiry, line. So, all radical tall talks of to impose on him any «ueb bringing about a socio-economic re- penalty, until he has been given a voutton will be of no use if we do reasonable opportunity of making *e- not delete article 811. The tribunal presentatioa on the penalty prqpeffd, is another way of safeguarding ffia hut only en the bub til the qvttifli 0 Constitution. KARTQEA 10, 1806 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.)m il
during such inquiry” ahaU officer should have a right to maker be omitted. II means, he will not a representation on the penalty be given any opportunity after the penalty is impneeri Now, what is proposed when the facts are found the present procedure as far as and the penalty is proposed. It Government employees are concern- was then after the representatives ed? I am talking of dismissal and removal from service. First of an; of the civil servants had seen me cfeargas are ftamed and given to the and made it clear that they do not employee. When he replies to the want a right of re-hearing in the charge , he is asked whether he wants to be heard in person. If he wants matter again and a repetition of the to he heard in person, then a court entire proceedings but only a right of inquiry is appointed. When t.*ie to represent against the penalty penalty is imposed, he is given an- other opportunity which, according to proposed, that I brought this the Ru es, is termed as show-caus* amendment.” notice. So. two opportunities are given—first to defend himself against those charges and second, to any This is a serious matter. What Shn something more after the show cause Alagesan has said must be against notice was given. That was amended the Government servants because he in 1963. Shri Ashok Sen was the is against the Government servants. Law Minister. After we saw Kim It is true. But don't consider onjy with the representatives of tha Go- corrupt some corrupt officers Don't vernment employees, he himself had make it appear that the word ‘cor- brought forward an amendment. 1 rupt officers’ means a reflection on want to read the proceedings of April all the officers in the Government of 30, 1963 on the Constitution Amend- India. What happens to the Class ment Bill, 15th Amendment. When I III and IV servants; what happens was going to speak, the hon. Speaker to Class II and even to Class I ser- said: “Shri Banerjee—Before he be- vants? I would say that the guilty gins, I want to mention tha I have officers are never dismissed, either received notice of an amendment under Article 311 or under any other from the Government. It would be Article. The prisons are meant only circulated to hon Members tonifiht. for the unsuccessful criminals. If But I may read it for the benefit of somebody is unsuccessful, he goes to hon. Members, so that they may be the prison. Somebody who is success- aware of this as well. Page 3. line ful remains out and can seek selec- 18,—add at the end—“and where it tion and also win. But that is not the is proposed, after such inquiry to question If there are certain officers impose on him any such penalty, who are bad, you can remove them until he has been given a reasonable under compulsory retirement; you opportunity of making representation can retire them at the age of 50, after on the penalty proposed but only on 25 years of service. You are having the basis of the evidence adduced so many powers, because of Emer- during such enquiry*’. This amend- gency and otherwise also. Why amend ment was Brought by the Law Minis- this particular article? The present ter. These are tha wordings in the position in Article 311—which is Constitution at present. Then Shri being amended now—is the collective A. K. Sen said: wisdom of the House in 1963. Even Shri Aaoke Sen agreed with us then, “What was sought was that even at the time of its amendment hi 1968. Bran Mr. Nehru wae there then. I after hearing on the charges do not know what has happened now anft a nonrimrtan en tha facta, the Wlur dees tha present Law Minister 51 Constitution NOVEMBER I, 1976 (44th Amdt.) Bill
[Shri S. M. Banerjee] restricted. All the cases of the do not rely on his predecessor Shri Central Government employees wifi Asoke Sen who brought the earlier go to these tribunals. In view of this, amendment after discussion. In this where is the necessity for deleting particular case, unfortunately, Mr. or amending this Article 311 now? i Gokhale did not get an opportunity do not find any reason. 1 am unable to discuss with the Central Govern- to read the entire proceedings of Cite m ent employees and know their House relaiing to the 15th Amend' views. That is why we are propos- ment. Every Member in that Jrlouse ing our amendment, No. 477 in the supported our clause. Shri Sinha- name of Shri Indrajit Gupta and san Singh and all those .who- were others. It says. present at that time said that this much opportunity should be given to “Page 13.— the Central Government employees. omit lines 6 to 10." 1 would request the Law Minister, Mr. Gokhale to convince ms, and through me the 22 akhs of Central "We want these lines 6 to 10 to be Government employees: how will this omitted and substituted by what we amendment of Article 311 help the have mentioned in amendment No. ■478, viz. Central Government employees? “Page 13,— When the 15th Amendment was /or lines 13 to 17, substitute— discussed in thr House 4 days, it “Provided that where it is pro- was our party which suggested an posed after such inquiry, to impose amendment which was seen by the upon him any such penalty, such then Law Minister in the Lobby— penalty may be imposed on the and he approved of it; there is a basis of the evidence adduced du- reference to this also in the records. ring such enquiry after giving -uch Mr. Asoke Sen said that we wanted person adequate opportunity of two opportunities. Even in 1963 when making representation on the this thing came up, we were reason- penalty proposed.” able enough to accept that we did not want two opportunities to discuss I am not quoting only this. A select everything. We wanted the second committee was constituted on the 15th opportunity to give a reply to the Constitution Amendment Bill. In the show-cause notice given to the em- select committee, men like Mr. Setal- ployees informing them about punish- vad Talwar and Purshottam Tricum- ment or penalty. That is exactly what das gave evidence. I am unable to wc wanted. We never wanted the two quote from their evidence. They said opportunities to discuss the whole that a reasonable opportunity is a thing. ‘must’. What is a reasonable oppor- tunity? We wanted only two oppor- tunities: one when the charge-sheet I feel that our amendment should is given, to reply to the charge-sheet; be accepted; if Mr. Gokha'e is unaole and secondly when such a show-cause to accept our amendment, at least the notice is given, the person concerned amendment which was brought in by should get an oportunity to reply to his predecessor Mr. Asoke Sen should it. Is it too much? If the hon. Minis- be retained; it should not be dis- ter does not want our amendment, turbed. or if he is unable to accept it, let the original position remain. Let him At that time also, we discussed it withdraw this also. Under the for full four days. Ultimately, it was next clause i.e. in clause 46, tribunals found that it might be slightly are expected to be constituted. The amended, but there should be other scope of these tribunals is also amendments brought and this parti- 53 Constitution KABTIKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill $4 cular amendment which I read out 15th Amendment to the Constitution. was brought ita- We must rely on the wisdom of those Members who' were present in 1988, . The. Central Government employees and unfortunately, I was also pre- stood like one man during any emer- sent then. gency, whether 'it was in I960 or 1965 or 1971. I am -telling you that • f t f i l f W % («r*r*Jf) : «TWWT if there is any other internal danger 311 ffWIT or external aggression, they will again work unitedly.' I know that this f ft particular amendment was suggested by us in 1963 and after that it be- came Government’s amendment. This v t q r ^ i N f h forfait?*® had happened because even the late tpr® artff ^ %, $ f a lamfnted.Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru real- f I *1$ ised the role played by the Central Government employees in 1962. That f a * *rnr is .why we request the hon. Minister srnnfV vfc ifa ff tfr grns tr w r not to be rigid about it. This is the only Magna Carta for the Central fwr i tfr arcwr TO*t Government employees. Why do you ? r|f 1 i fr x deprive them of that? You are sett- | f a WT ing up some tribunals without know- ing the reference; you are going to set up tribunals where the bureau- crats will be their heads. Why are their rights being curtailed? I re- % f a * r 3 i i quest that this should have been dis- cussed at the level of the JCM. Even v t wfiw p t fwra fen' i we were not told about it. I request T O 5RT 3f 46 I T T T VHPT you to read the Debates of 1963. I am sure you must have read them. v f t arr ? i $ t o w nr % qwrfiffd You should read the observations *rnr qrq% sraft t*srt made by the Members, eminent par- i * liamentarians like Mr. Krishna Menon and others. I may not be considered because I am an aggrieved man. I “323A. (l) Parliament may, by know how they were trying to pro- law, provide for the adjudication tect me. But, in spite of tihat, because or trial by administrative tribunals of Shri Mahavir Tyagi, I was dismis- of disputes and complaints with sed. Otherwise, Article 311 saves respect. to recruitment and condi- the Central Government employees. tions of service of persons ap- Unfortunately, civilian employees In pointed to public services and posts the Defence are not covered under in connection with the affairs of the this. Somebody, while drafting the Union or of any State or of any Constitution, left the word 'civilian* local or other authority within the in Defence. People thought that territory of India...... ” this Defence meant Army, Navy and the Air Force. Unfortunately, six *TCT | fa TO STOrft lakh Central Government employees known as civilian employees in De- fence are not covered under this. I v r e a f r o v r f i r % f?*$TO vTWR would respectfully request the hon. t - t f V r .'[m f!lf:A'T~ r~~] ~rf1W7 if l1;Cfl ~ f~!l ~Ol' ~'lTa, -«'(&1'11' fl:ffi ~lr ~, ~ ~l=OIf.:1:Ta epT;r ~~r it rrTf~ 'l1<:m O;:Qm ~, lI'~ lfr~r . ~ ~~ r!lo[jCff~T 9'1<: ~:l>~ ~ I >;IT11iT t m ~lt~r ~~'h:~T~li ~Tt ~f;r 1i~r m .~B'~\"'":"'l: .f>=(if 1 . ~Tt~f ~~fi~~ ~~ 'iff\it 'liT~~ SHRIMAl'I PARVATHI KRISH- ~.I ~fulr ~fqcn"No such person as aforesaid This is the type of injustice that is shall be dismissed or removed or possible; this is the type of distor- reduced in rank except after an tion that is possible and this is the enquiry m which he has been in- type of bureaucratic excess that is formed of the charges against him possible if this safeguarding provi- and give a reasonable opportunity sion is not there. Surely, the Gov- of being heard in respect of those ernment employees should have the charges provided that where it is right' to make his position clear at proposed after such enquiry to the time when the disciplinary action impose upon him any such penalty, is being contemplated. such penalty may be, imposed on the basis of evidence adduced dur- ing such enquiry and it shall not be necessary to make any such We; haVe had some cases for ins- representation on the 'penalty pro- tance during the Emergency neriod. posed." When these cases were brought to the notice of the higher authorities, We found that some of the people Therefore, you are denying him the who took such action were conti- right of making any representation, nuing in their position with impunity in regard to the proposed penalty and and, on the other hand, there were what We are requesting is that you others who were arbitrarily retired should accept OUr amendment and . and not given a chance to make their preserve the right of making repre- representations and, in spite of re- sentation against the penalty proposed peated representations on a personal which, in many cases, may be far level by Members of Parliament beyond what is justifiable. This is to the Minister concerned, they were the spirit behind our amendment and retired from service. For instance I hope the Hon. Minister, wfio seems there was a caso where a large num- to have had an allergy to almost all ber of railway employees in Gonda the amendments of this Party, al- Loco Shed were sacked. The engineer though they had strong democratic concerned decided that he was going content, will not show the same al- to sack the whole lot of people. He lergy in this case also. retired them compulsorily. What hap- pened then? The case was gone into and it was found that there was no ground for the compulsory retire- SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: My friend ment of those Railway employees. has said that I have allergv for all Now, new charges are be.ing cooked their amendments. I have no allergy up. for any amendment at all, but I just cannot accept an amendment just because it is moved by this Party Now" if this clause remains even or that Party. Some Hon. Member when finally the punishment is to be has said 'you accept at least one given, the concerned employee will amendment from our Party'. If the not 'have' 'any redress at all or nny amendments were good I would not opportunity of defending himself. mind accepting even all the amend- 59 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (44th Amdt.) Bill 60
' IShri I I R. Gokhale] the conclusion that all or some of ments from the Party; but the whole the charges have been proved and it question is that whether we accept an is therefore necessary to take action amendment or not is not because it against a person. Should h* then be comes from this Party or that Party. given another opportunity to plead They must have noticed that I have that on that basis, not the punishment not accepted any amendment from proposed but some lower punishment our Party also. or some higher punishment should be given? We have a feeling that The point is that this Article has this proposal in the amendment does coime into our Constitution as a not detract from the concept of legacy of the Government of India reasonable opportunity at sill. As I 'Act. That is not to say that, at that have said, this is still there. time, there was no reason for conti- nuing this provision 'm the Constitu- An extreme suggestion has been tion. My friend Mr. Banerjee has made, I think by Mr. Das, that the 'said that this was done on the co1- whole Article should be deleted. lective wisdom of the Constituen That means that the ‘reasonable op« Assembly. portunity’ that is being continued SHRI S. M. BANERJEE: I men- now should be taken away. There ia tioned 1953. no doubt that there is a strong feeling in some quarters that this Article , SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: This was which is giving special protection to made in 53, it is true. But, from that ‘employees of the States and the point of view, we can say that every- Union is creating many difficulties, thing that is there in the Constitu- with the result that there is greater tion and everything we are seeking indiscipline. For example, the or have sought to put into it has Prime Minister can dismiss a Minis- been on the collective wisdom of ter but she cannot dismiss an officer. some time or the other. We have no Instances are not wanting where the disrespect for the collective wisdom proceedings started were completed of that time, but the point is that after the person concerned had re- when we are reconsidering every- tired. In one case, an employee also thing now, we are considering it from said ‘now you can do what you like the point of view of a little more since I have retired’. Therefore, wisdom which we might have gained some people are saying that the since that was done. whole Article should go. But that is not our proposal. The Article re- Now, it is wrong to think that the mains, except for the second part. concept of reasonable opportunity is The second part, which leads to a being taken away. In fact, the lot of dilatoriness in the enquiry, earlier part of the Article savs th'il need not be there.... nobody shall be dismissed or reduced in rank without giving a reasonable SHRI S. M. BANERJEE: That is opportunity. That is not being not what we wanted. The first part touched. Therefore, the enquiry is that when a charge-sheet is must be on the result of a reasonable given an opportunity to reply opportunity and that reasonable to the charge-sheet will be opportunity has not been defined given. But after some punishment is here because it is well understood by decided upon and when a notice is all nwrf various decisions have also given that the Government has de- been given by the courts. Therefore, cided to impose such and sucfti a the reasonable opportunity is still punishment, he should be giveti' an there. The only question is whether opportunity to reply to that algo. another opportunity should be given after the enquiry is over when the SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: This person holding the enquiry comes to whole point was discussed. I Hstva 51 Constitution KARTIKA 10, 1896 (SAKA) (44th Arndt.) Bill 62 had some experience of those enquir- Jj point. But the point I am m altin g ies, not only in courts but otherwise I is that this does not detract from the also. I know what you are saying. main condition in the Article that an You are saying that it is not enough inquiry has to be made after an op- if you give him an opportunity at portunity is given. After a conclusion the* time of holding the preliminary to reached regarding the guilt of the enquiry; after coming to a conclu- accused, if anyone wants to make a sion that the charges are proved* on representation, this does not prevent the basis of those proved charges them from making the representa- you should further ask him what he tion also. has to say in regard to the penalty that is proposed to be inflicted. SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: It does.
SHRI S. M. BANERJEE; He should SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: It does not; it only says that there is no obliga- be Allowed to make a representation. tion . .
SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: Nobody is SHRI S. M. BANERJEE: It says prevented from making a represen- that nobody can set aside the con- tation. If somebody wants to make clusion at the enquiry on the ground, a representation, nobody will say he that a second opportunity as a matter shouldn’t. No citizen is prevented of Constitutional obligation was not from making a representation; but given. the point is whether a Constitutional guarantee . . . SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: But the person may make a representation on the penalty proposed to be imposed. SHRI S. M. BANERJEE: This Is very important. My point is that SHRI S. M. BANERJEE: Are you the Civil Services Rules which are in going to amend the Civil Services •consonance with Art. 3 say that when (Classification, Control and Appeal)' he is given a charge-sheet, he replies Rules after this? to the charge-sheet and he is heard in person, and then, after an Inquiry SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: I can’t say. Officer is appointed and he gives his Normally, rules will be in l:ne with findings, he is given another oppor- ' the Constitutional rules and most tunity. That is not a further in- rules provide for two stages of an quiry . . . enquiry. I know that, because that is a Constitutional provision. SHRI H. R. GOKHALE; If you are MR. SPEAKER: The Rules cannot thinking of an enquiry at the stage be otherwise. when evidence is taken or documents are collected, this is not an enquiry SHRr H. R. GOKHALE: I agree of that type. This is in the sense with you that the rules here are like that after a prima facie conclusion that. Later on, to the extent to which is reached with regard to the guilt ot we have to bring the rules in line a person, according to you, the per- with the Constitutional Provision, son must be told that ‘this is the some amendment of the rule may be conclusion to which I have come and necessary. But I cannot at this stage I want to dismiss you; have you say which rule will be amended and anything to say?’ Because even if in what way. Therefore, let us remove the charges are proved they may not the impression that opportunity is not lustily dismissal but may justify being given. The extreme example is only some lesser penalty like a what my friend, Mr. Dhamidhar Das warning or other penalties men* has suggested, namely, delete the tianed here. I think that is your whole thing. I am not in a position «3 Constitution NOVWBMt 1, lift '(Hlft Amdt,) S it!
[Shri H. R. Ookhale} afttffcutfd tk>ay contain such £ * » at the moment ta accept that amend- vision# lor the amendment of Chap- ment. Some Members have asked why ter VI of Part V! as may be necea- there should be a Constitutional provi- sary for giving effect to the provi- sion and have said that we could sions of that law and no such Uttr make an Ordinary law. But these are shall be deemed to be an amend- things which can be considered at the ment of this Constitution for the a$p?8Pri*te time. I do not think I purpose of article 388.” ■can accept either this amendment or the other amendments. MR SPEAKER: Discussion on this If you think of the implications ot Clause is concluded. We go no to this Clause, 1 feel that the Constitu- Clause 45. , tional sense of anybody will get a Clause IS— (Amendment of Article jolt Here is the Constitut.on, and Chapter VI of part VI is a part of the 312). Constitution and that part contains SHRI C. M. STEPHEN (Muvatu- five articles. Article 368 says that any puzha): 1 beg to move part of the Constitution can be amended, and there is a procedure Page 13,— stipulated for that. You can amend omit lines 23 to 35. the provisions of the Constitution only by the exercise of your constituent Page 13,— power and only by a particular pro- ceeding. And here is a wonderful, omit lines 23 to 35. new device which says that Parlia- ment may pass a law; the law may SHRI K. MAYATHEVAR: I beg to provide for amendment of certain move: articles of the Constitution, and the Page 13, line 28, — Articles will stand amended; and that law will not be deemed to be an after “district judge” insert— amendment under article 368. If this is a valid provision, you can as well “and district munsifs and pass a law and amend any article in first class Magistrates” this Constitution, and you can say that that amendment will not be MR. SPEAKER: Before I call upon deemed to be an amendment under Mr. Stephen to speak, I would once article 368. There are two contradic- again request the hon. Member to be tory positions. Article 368 speaks of brief, because, we are taking one the constituent power, only by a parti- hour for each Clause. I do not want to cular procedure, Constitution can be deny the opportunity to the Member amended and then alone the Consti- who wants to speak, but he should be tution will stand amended. Here we brief. I think, each hon. Member can say that we forget about article 388 make his point in five minutes. and, under an ordinary law, we can Mr. Stephen. amend the Constitution. The question is whether you can delegate your con- SHRI C. M. STEPHEN: I take the stituent power to a legislative authori- floor of the House to highlight what ty of Parliament Constituent authority appears to me a very, very vital mat- is different from legislative authority. ter. A matter of Constitutional Prin- Five articles of the Constitution ase ciple is involved here; I refer to the involved here. We are blaming the sub-clause (4) which is proposed and judiciary for interference. H we a*e which reads as follows:— going to amend the Constitution te “The law providing lor the crea- this way. bow can wa blame the }urife» tion uf the all-India judical service eiwy?,' Two article* ate put forth' bit 6$ ContHtuUon XA&glKA 10, IN I (SAKA) (44th Arndt.) Bill 66
Own. On* U compulsory; it says and saying that by a simple majority, tfcRt-agy provision «f the Constitution you can amend any Article of this «fe& «»t bo amended except by tbe Constitution is a revolt agains Article 'jMfrdse of tbe constituent power—4o 36$. Let us not make tbe amending emend by way of addition, variation powers of this House a mockery, and or atpesl. you cannot do that. Article 368 is a mandatory provision; you are getting » N k K away from it. I know, an answer will be a plea under Article 3 of the Con- {M*. Dk pu t y Spca kb s in the Chair.] stitution. Article 3 says:
Here are provisions to be amended “Parliament may by law— toy «n ordinary law. According to me (a) form a new State___ tW* is a revolting concept, an absolu- (b) increase the area of any State; tely revolting concept, which cannot stand muster at all. Look at Chapter (c) diminish the area of any State” VII of Part VI. I do not find any etc. need for this extraordinary provision. The all-India judicial service is con- And Article 4 says that any law, cerned only with district judges and whereby a new State can be evolved upwards, not below. This is very clear- and all that consequential changes can ly stated in the Bill: be effected in the Schedule and they say that they need not be deemed an “The all-India judicial service amendment of the Constitution. referred to in clause (1) shall not Fourth Schedule is only the list of include any post inferior to that of States, you are forming. The Con- a district judge as defined in Arti- stitution gives the parliament power cle 236” to redraw the boundaries of any State, to amalgamate or to separate any Go through this Chapter. You find State and consequently, the represen- •nly one clause, where the district tation to the Rajya Sabha will vary. judges come in. Article 233 is the This is an arithmatical proposit on. only Article, which speaks about dis- For that consequential changes can trict 'judges? Article 233A sneaks of be elTected under Article 4 and for the judges who are sitting in regular- that you need not have two-thirds ization; that is no longer relevant. majority. That has no comparison Article 234 relates to recruitment of with tbe present position at all. In persons other than district judges, to the first place, this is the parent law. the judicial service. There, the all- The Constitution, as framed at that India service does not come into the time, permitted this. There is no picture. Article 235 is regarding con- question of the Constitution being trol of the high courts on judiciary amended; this will not be part of the inferior to the district judges. And Constitution; you can do it by law. then comes the Article regarding inter- On the other hand, after twenty six pretation. This is all that comes in. years, you are now coming with a Therefore, there is one only one new proposition saying that an ordin- Article. Possibly, Article 233 also ary law will amend six Articles of the will be affected by this all-India judi- Constitution. I am submitting that cial service. Easily, you can amend this is absolutely unconstitutional, Hurt Article today to make it adjust- absolutely wrong. Let ug have some able according to all-India judi- respect for this great document, we cial service, you are bringing in. sweared by. The fathers of the Con- stitution had a great respect lor this This extra-ordinary concept of dele- document and let us have some res- gating your constituent power to the pect also. We swear by this Consti- ttfisM hre function at the Parliament tution. 36 60 LS—3. •67 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (44th AmctL) BiU
[Shri C. M. Stephen] government to consider this — Article 368 is a cornerstone of this know the reply will come Constitution; we are operating under Article 4. I would say Article 4 h that. We hold every Article of the entirely different from this. Article Constitution sacred. It is not to be 4 is a part of the Constitution. When tampered with by an ordinary law to the Constitution was framed, imme- be passed by the Parliament. You can diately, at that time, in the your 1949, as well wipe out, completely wipe out Article 4 was there and as a part of Article 368 and in its place, put in the Constitution and it has been another art cle. saying that the Parlia- handed down to us, that the Fourth ment may pass a law whereby it may Schedule need not be considered as amend any Article of the Constitu- a part of the Constitution and that it tion and that shall not be deemed to will stand amended i t by law. you be an amendment of Article 368. Here, change the boundaries of any Stale. I am reminded of a sentence by That cannot be quoted now for the Justice Beg of the Supreme Court in purpose of amending the Constitution. the Keshavananda Bharati case, it was Here the position is entirely different. a famous dictum. A one sentence This is an illegal, unconstitutional amendment. The question was: can provision which goes against our you have a one-sentence amendment constitution, against Article 368. You of the Constitution whereby the are now including the constituent Indian Constitution stands amended? power also saying that there is no That was the question raised and the difference between the constituent answer was that we can have a one- power and tha legislative power. You sentence amendment of the Constitu- are putting in a proposition that the tion whereby the entire constitution constituent power is a delegatable can be obliterated, any article can be power, it is not a delegatable power. wiped out, anything can be repealed You cannot delegate the constituent and anything can be amended. This power. This is what we are objecting is a point which I wanted to high- to. This is a highly object:onable pro- light. I do not know whether the position. Government is going to accept my objection. It could have as well put This is all what I wanted to point in an article in Chapter VI that the out. 1 do not want to add anything recruitment and conditions of service more. of District Judges may be governed by any law that the Government may SHRI K. MAYATHEVAR: As we pass— are aware, under Article 312 sufo- DR. KAILAS (Bombay-South). clause (2) we have got now services Then what is your solution to the like the Indian Police Servcie, Indian amendment moved by the Govern- Administrative Service etc. from the ment? Do you want to keep it as it very inception of the Constitution of is or delete it? India. But I wonder why the AB India Judicial Services have not been SHRI C. M. STEPHEN: This is a violation of Article 368 as I could included so far till this moment al- see. Thi5 runs counter to Article though it has been laid down in Art. 336. Now I am happy and I congratu- 368. It is wrong. That is what I am late the Law Minister for having come saying. You are making a mock* > forward at least at this eleventh hour of Article 368 by this. Other methods to include District and Sessions Judges you can employ, in Chapter VI you at least in the All India Judicial can say that the Judicial Service can Service. be controlled by such and such law and until then, the following provi- sions will apply. I just wanted to I want to say one more thing, ,«J» highlight and would urge upon t] shall of the District Munsiffs and the 69 ConstittLtion KARTIKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bm
Sub-Judges and the First Class Magis- this point earlier and I had beea •. trates, that is, the Sub-divisional looking this point with great anxiety_ Magistrates. 'I'hese Sub-Divisional When I say p7-ima facie, it gives an Magistrates are called First Class impression that it is a very soand services and the Sub-Judges are in argument. I looked up other provisions between the First Class Magistrates of the Constitution also. arid the District and Session Judges. The District MUni;iffs are also equiva- Certainly, this is not my inventioa, lent to the First Class 'Magistrates. I am not referring only to Article 4_ In SO far as at least the police officials There are some other provisions are concerned, the Deputy Superin- where exactly the same thing bas tendents are a state service and the been done not only by Parliament. Asst. Superintendents are a . central under Article 36R, but also by the service. IAS officials, Sub-Col- Constituent Assembly itself. lectors and Asst. Collectors are from the central recruitment Let me go to Article 4. I want to and the Deputy Collectors are remove the impression t'J.at the mat- recruited in the State service and ters referred to in Article 4 are some they are First Class Services. They consequential matters and that they are holding Class I post. District are not important. Munsifs are also selected by the State Service as in Class I service. There Part I of the Const.tuti on is a very should not be discrimination between important part of our Constitution, the l st Clas Magistrate in the judi- Part ..I gives us the composition, the ciary and the ist Class Official in formation of the Union and its the IPS and IAS. My pleadings are territory. Ar-ticle 4 to which rererenee you must include the Sub-Judges and was made says+« the l st Class Magistrates and the Dist- rict Munsifs in the All India Judicial "Any law referred to in Article Service in the course of amending 2 or article 3 shall contain such Article 312 (1) and (2) in the All provisions for the amendment of India Judicial Service. the First Schedule and the .You have recently read the story Fourth Schedule as may be neces- of hon. Justice Sarkaria. There was sary to give effect to the pro- an attempt on his life. An attempt visions of the law may also contain had been made on the life of our such supplemental, incidental ano present Chief Justice. This has been consequential provisions, ... _... _."' so not only in Tamilnadu but through- Article 2 says+- out. India. Life of a judge is a very risky life. Therefore, they should be "Parliament may by law admit paid properly. I repeatedly plead for into the Union, or establish, new my submission with all the emphasis States on such. terms and conditions at. my command. Hon. Minister had as it thinks fit." himself been a lawyer and a judge. He Surely the matter in which you admit knows the difficulties of judicial a new State in the territory of India persons. is not a matter of no significance. ·tt District Munsifs and Sub Judges is a matter of great' significance from should be included in All India the point of view of total composition Service. of the territories of India. SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, when an argument is Article 3 says-: made, as was made by my hon. friend "Parliament may by law- Shri Stephen, prima facie that appears to be a very strong argument. In fact, (a) form a new State by separa- I had the good fortune of discussing tion of territory from any . 7 i Uun$ta*tio* W P W i, i m (Mth Amdt.) m
{Shri H. R. Gokhlc] and *U othqr matters relating to cttizenfbip.’' Slate or by uniting two or mere States or puts of States So, by ordinary tow, you can say 1&*t or by uniting any territory to any citizenship can be acquired or can a part of any State; be terminated. Let me also to (b) increase the ***a of any Article S which refers to cttUfsMsaMp. State; It says; (c) diminish the area of any ‘At the commencement of flsis State; Constitution, every person who has DB. KAH-AS: If jrou don't add the tem of judiciary, the high cou^l 1* ivoids wbat wiU happen? located. There is no All-India Judicial Service now. When that is made, then, IW H 8 . R. GOKHALE: It w ill be how can the high court do it? Which v«i7 bad s e t to add the words. There high court will do it? Mr. Stephen would be perfectly right it we did not say this. There one Therefore, the power will have to be vested in some authority which can would aigue, it is amendment of the constitution, because there is no operate in respect of all the territories ntch express provision that this will of India. Maybe, we will have to give aot be regarded as an amendment the power to the Supreme Court or, maybe, the power may have to be vest- Article 368. So, this has not under ed m some other suthority whi£K can eome out from my own brain or from the brain of my draftsmen. This was have it to deal with the district judges lomething which has been followed *'>' when the service is formed in respect the Constituent Assembly. Even in of such district judges. These are respect of certain legislation which can merely consequential provisions. So, be regarded as amendment of the it is not right for you to say that we xmstitution, the Constituent Assembly can amend any provision of the Consti- thought it fit to leave it to Parliament tution, even the provision of this to pass the necessary law. This is not power is only to the extent it is neces- sary. (Interruptions). I have not to be regarded as amendment under Article 368. So far a$ the present said here that we are going to amend amendment is concerned, as I said, it this. It is only the power to deal with is not a blanket thing. Take for inst- a problem which can arise on the ex- ance the constitution of an All-India perience which we gain while we Judical Service. constitute the All-India Judicial Service. Moreover, the all-India judicial ser- Now, the only purpose here is to pro- vice is not going to be constituted by vide for the creation of an All-India an executive order. There has to be Judicial Service. The law may contain a resolution in the Rajya Sabha as in such provisions for the amendments to respect of other services, there has to Chapter IV of Part VI. It is not cor- be legislation for this purpose. And, rect to say that you can amend any certainly, all these matters will come part of the Constitution now and in the before Parliament. Therefore, my sub. future, you do not have to go to Parlia. mission is that let not the impression ment to amend the Constitution under remain firstly that we are doing some- Art. 368 at all. I got this impression. thing new that nobody had thought of If I am wrong you may correct me. or even the Constituent Assembly (Interruptions). I thought you gave thought of it. Secondly, it is not so thig impression. Anyway, if you go to blanket that you can completely erode Chapter VI of Part VI, here we are now the power of Parliament under talking of constitution of an All-India Art. 388. Judicial Service, that deals with sub- ordinate courts. I need not read all of SHRI C. M. STEPHEN: The point them. Here, for example, we have a raised here is not understood properly. definition of what is meant by a dis- The point raised was this. The article trict Judge. And then, you leave the quoted by him was what was part of provision that is there, to-day the the Constitution framed la 1948. H ist power is given to the high court, in Constitution says that certain things consultation with the Governor, fe can be altered by law. That is the decide some matters, Such as the post, framework of the Constitution. ing or transfer of district judges. Hare the Ugh court means only the The Pffttt Is that under the ptwiajnnj high court in respect of a particular of Art. 8*8, you can amend'Mg’ «f State In which, under the present sys- these things. The Constitution as 75 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (4~th Amdt.) Bill
IShri C. M. Stephen] Page 14, line 14,- tiueh when it 'was framed, provided for afte1' "article 136" ins~Tt- .a:rt.tin- articles. That' IS Very clear. 'Tbat I concede. Th'e law propose.l 'bY "but including the junsdiction ycu is to give unto yourself the right of a High Court under article. 226" (13) t,;} amend several articlts or some articles. This is a new thing. That being so,' if you want to make any Page 14, line 38,- ehanges in the Constitution, you can afteT "tax" inse1·t- :}c that under Art. 368. You will provide that, certain articles, in spite "including the tax levied, assess- of Art. 368, you can amend. You can ed ·or collected by a local autho- amend certain other articles by a rity" (14) simple majority. This is the contra- diCtion. I am saying that there is no Page 15, line 26,-- ccmparison between the two. That is an I can s'ay about this. afteT "article 136" inse1·t-
SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: Sir, I have "but including the [ur isdiction of a High Court under article exptamed t:1e reasons. If the 'Consti- 226" (15) tuent Assembly can do it, certainly, this Parliament can also do that. Page 14, line 40,-, Parliament has got the ..powers to amend It add at the end-
SHRI K. NARA YAN RAO (Bobilli): "and collection of arrears due Can you .give an example? to or by a banking company" (267) SHRl H. R. GOKHALE: It has been done .recently When we. dealt wilh the SHRI B. R. SHUKLA (Bahlaich): eoestitution of' tribunals in Andhr a I 'beg to move. Pxadesh Page 14, lines 33 and 34,- MR. DE,IPUTY·SPEAKER: You want to .mclude some more services in this. omit ", or offences" (72) He wants even the lower services to be included in the judicial service. .Page 15, line 23.-
SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: Sir, I afteT "evidence" inse1·t- would have myself liked it. But, we de not have the all -India : judicial "and the representation of service from the beginning.' We lawyers" (73) thought that'it would be encroaching en the State's field and, to that ex- Page 15, line 26,- tent, may be, we may make a 'begin- after "article 136" insert-- 'ning at the district judges level, and see by experience whether it works "and the ordinary criminal ~tisfactorily. It may be, there is courts functioning under the Code "SOmething in what he says but we of Criminal Procedure, 1974:' (74) 'Clt..'l' look into it after we gain some -exper-ience. Page 14, line 11,- Clau.se 46-':(l1isertion of. new PaTt afte1' "evidence" insert- XIVA)
SlIRJ P. R. SHENOY (Ud.ipi):, I beg "and representation by coun- sel" (95) to mOV!!:
I :." "" ConstttHtkm XAWTIKA IQ, 1 m (SAKA) (44th Arndt.) Bill 78
Page 14, line H r - position thereof’ (135) after “article 136” insert—• Page 14,— “and that of High Court purely omit lines 7 to 12. (136; on point of law as provided in Code of Civil Procedure in mat- Page 14, lines 13 and 14,— ters of second appeal.” (96). for “except the jurisdiction” sub- stitute— Page 15,— “including the jurisdiction omit lines 12 to 14. (97} under article 32 and article 226 but not” (137) pQge 15, line 26, — after “art.cle 138” insert— Page 14,— “and the jurisdiction of ordi- omit lines 29 to 31. (133) nary criminal courts” (9b) Page 14,— SHRI C. M STEPHEN: I beg to Move: for lines 32 to 35, substitute- 1 Page 13, lines 40 and 41,— “323B. ( ) Parliament or the State Legislatures may, subject omit “the adjudication or trial to Part XI, provide by law for by” (131) tribunals for adjudication on dis- putes with respect to the matters Page 13, line 41,— specified in clause (2)-” (139) after “tribunals ’ insert— Page 14,— for the adjudication” (132) for line 38, substitute— “(a) assessment, levy and col- Page 13, line 41,— lection of tax;” (140) omtt “and complaints” (133) Page 14,— Page 13 and 14,— for line 41, substitute— for lines 42 to 44 and 1 and 2 “(c) industrial disputes and lespectively, labour laws;” (141)
substitute "respect to employ- Pages 14 and 15,— ment, non-employment and condi- tions of service of persons co/cied for lines 42 and 43 and 1 and 2 by article 311(1).” (134) respectively, substitute “(d) land reforms;” Page 14, lines 4 and 5,— (142) for “an administrative tribunal Page 15,— for the Union and a separate ad- omit lines 4 to 6. (143) ministrative tribunal for each State or for two or more States’* Page 15, line 7,— substitute "a hierarchy of ad- omit .“supply and” (Iii) 'ministNftive tribunals and the com* 79 C o « * » « o » NOVEMBER ! , « * * Am dt) BUt &
[Shri €. H Stepfeatt] "the Government of IndfU «f Plage 15, line 7 ^ . any State Government* (39tf) after "distribution11 insert— Page 14,— “and fixation of prices" (145) after line 8, insert— Page 15, lines 10 and 11,— “(aa) provide for the establish- omit “and control of prices of ment of appellate administrative such goods” (146). tribunals; Page 15, lines 13 and 14,— (aaa) prescribe the qualifica- omit “and fees in respect of any tions and conditions of service of of those matters” (146) members of the said tribunals;’* (357) Page 15,— Page 15,— omit lines 15 and 16. (149) after line 18, insert— Page 15,— “(aa) prescribe the qualifications omit lines 19 to 24. (150) and conditions of service of the members of the said tribunals;" Page 15, lines 25 and 26,— (358) for "except the jurisdiction of’ substitute— SHRI S. M. BANERJEE: I beg to move: “including the jurisdiction under articles 32 and 226 but pot o f (151) Page 13, line 42,—
Page 15,— for “and conditions of service” substitute— omit lines 29 to 34 (152) “conditions of service, reversion, Page 15, lines 36 and 37,— discharge, removal, dismissal from service, premature or com- omit “(including provisions as to pulsory retirement". (479) fees) as the appropriate Legislature may deem necessary" (153) Page 14, line 8,— Page 15, lines 38 and 39,— add at the end— omit “and for the speedy dis- "which shall include members posal of cases by, and the enforce- of the public service commiMttft, ment of the orders of/’ (154) judges of the Supreme Court am High Courts, representatives Page 15,— the employee* and eminent filter lie figures other than retired ^9- omit lines 40 to 42. (155) ministratan.” (>480) SHRI X. NARAYANA RAO; 1 beg to move: Page 1^ lin e 41,— Page 14, lin e 2#— add a% the end— for “the Government of India” “tadudiag deputes cauceming sttfcriituft— agricultural labour* (578) 1 f fa Constitution XASTEKA 10, 1808 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill «2
$ $ m X . KAVATHUVAB} I beg to Page 14, line 6,— awAlt odd at the end,— ? « f« 14, Une 6 ,~ “which shall be under the direct odd At the end— control and supervision of the “to be presided over by the High Court in whose Jurisdiction Judges not below the rank of the the Tribunals have been estab- High Court Judges” (542) lished" (643)
SHRI SHANKAR DAYAL SINGH Page 14, line 12,— (Ghatfa): I beg to move: add at the end— Page 14, lines 5 and 6,— “as laid down in the Code of Civil Procedure” (644) for “a separate administrative tribunal for each State or for two Page 14, line 14,— or more States” after “article 136” insert “and of substitute “regional administra- the High Court under article 226” tive tribunals for the States/’ (565) (645) Page 14^ line 41,— SHRI P. R. SHENOY (Udipi): Mr. after “and” insert “rural or agri- Deputy Speaker, Sir, clause 46 uf the cultural." (566) BiU seeks to introduce a new part, namely, part XlV(A) for the estab- SHRI B. V. NAIR (Kanara): I beg lishment of tribunals or hierarchy of to move: tribunals. The object of these tribu- nals is to settle certain disputes or Pag* 13, line 42,— complaints excluding the jurisdiction of other civil courts. after “respect to” insert In the proposed clause 2 of the pro- “the tenure, permanency and posed Article 823(a) in sub-clause (d) creation of posts,” (592) it is said: Poge 14, line 32,— “I a w made under clause (1) may exclude the jurisdiction of all courts after “law”, insert— except the jurisdiction of the Sup- “only in respect of laws which reme Court under Article 136 with have been added to the Ninth respect to the disputes and com- , Schedule to the Constitution” plaints referred to in clause (!)”» (60S) Similarly, under the proposed clause 3 of the proposed Article 323(b) in sub- SHRI SHIVNATH SINGH (Jhun- clause (d) it is said: jJNunu): I beg to move: “Law made under clau&e 1 may Pago 15, lines 7 and 8,— exclude jurisdiction of all courts except the jurisdiction of the for “food-stuHs (including edible Supreme Court under Article 180 oilseeds and oils)” with respect to all or any of the matters falling within the jurisdic- Substitute "essential goods (in- tion of the said tribunals." cluding edible oilseeds, oils and industrial goods)” (6ft) Sir, it makes an exception in the ease of Supreme Court, that is, fft?X JL C. DAGA (Pali): I beg Supreme Court1* jurisdiction under to w w ta A rticle 188 but though It is not 83 Constitution NOVEMBER 1, 1076 (44th Arndt) BiU ft*
[Shri P. a Shenoy] Secondly, Sir, there it another pro* mentioned it also excepts the juris* vision under the proposed Ailftte diction of the Supreme Court under 323(b) clause 2. The matters ro tated Article 32 because under Article to in clause 1 are the following: <«) 13 ot the Constitution any law levy assessment, collection and ' en- which violates any fundamental right forcement of any tax. Now, this may is void and, therefore, though mean tax levied only by the Centre Parliament is enabled under Article and the state. To make it very clear 323(a) and State legislature is enabl- I would like to add under sub-clause ed under Article 323(b) to exclude (1): levy assessment, collection end the jurisdiction of Supreme Court— enforcement of any tax including the except its jurisdiction under Article tax levied, assessed or collected by a 136—still the Supreme Court will have local authority. That will make it jurisdiction under article 32 to adju- clear that the State legislature can dicate upon disputes in which funda- form hierarchy of tribunals for set- mental rights are involved. I have tling disputes in the matter of tax no objection to this but my fear is levied by local authorities. It is that it may not exclude the jurisdic- better to expressly safeguard the in- tion of the High Courts under Article terest of the local authorities *1*0 226 also. Though it is said that Par- under this new provision. liament or State legislature may ex- clude the jurisdiction of all courts excepting the Supreme Court, meaning Further, Sir, I would like one more thereby that the legislature can ex- dispute to be got added for the adju- clude the jurisdiction of High Courts, dication of trial by the tribunal. At it may still mean that the jurisdic- present all disputes in the matter ot tion of High Courts under Article 226 collection of arrears by the banks, the is not excluded because the juiisdic- banks have to go to the courts. tion given to High Courts under The customer is the victim. In The Article 226 is a special jurisdiction. case of small scale industrialists when We get our grievances redressed by an industry is established by them means of filing a writ petition which ana it becomes sick immediately the is a special remedy and, therefore, il banks go to the court and file suits. is absolutely necessary to say that the The litigation m ordinary civil courts jurisdiction of the High Courts under is very costly. One has to pay 7 per cent to 8 per cent as court fees alone Article 226 is also excluded. This is essential because in our own State and this would mean a lot of cost to of Karnataka hundreds of writ peti- the small industrialists and other tions have been filed against the parties who have already become sick. Therefore it is necessary to see that tenants by landlords and, as such, the the customers of banks do not suffer Land Reforms Act could not be fully under the ordinary law. If this implemented. matter is taken up by a tribunal there After the passing of the Constitu- is no question 0f paying heavy Cost tion Bill the State legislatures may to the banks. Secondly, provision can bring some law to exclude the juris- be made in the law for establishing diction of thse High Courts but the a hierarchy of tribunals for nursing High Courts may still hold that their the industries which are sick. At pre- jurisdiction under Article 226 cannot sent the civil court* cannot force the be excluded by the new provision of banks to have some nursing scheme the Constitution. I do not want that If we have tribunal* banka can be there should be any loophole in this compelled to form some nursing matter and, therefore, 1 want these schemes unitor which small atok units Articles 823(a) and 323(b) should be can be nursed. Xt thig provision is amended suitably to expressly exclude made it is good the bftnk* also the jurisdiction of High Court under because when a matter it taken to tbe Article 226 to toue writ in any form. civil court it will take Teen tfeMiMf 85 Constitution KARTIKA 10, 1888 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) BUI 86
hank to get a decree. In fact many by- the judges of the state high courts? banka insist that there must be $ome My submission is • that a final review provision for them to take matters to should be open to the litigant against scntte tribunal -like the tribunals of the decision of a service tribunal the cooperative societies. In the case before a high court on points of law of cooperative societies they need net if not on points of fact. Some other go to the bank for collecting the types of tribunals are sought to be arrears. They have their own set-up provided under article 323(b). It says: to collect the arrears. Similarly banks also want that there must be some “(a) l'evy, assessment, collection institution which would enable them and enforcement of any tax; to collect arrears quickly. Therefore, in the interest of banks also it is (b) foreign exchange, import and better to have a hierarchy of tribu- export across customs fron- nals for the collection of arrear8 by tiers; the banks. With these words, I con- clude my remarks. (c) industrial and labour disputes; (d) land reforms by way of SHRI B. R. SHUKLA (Bahraich): acquisition by the State of A very pernicious departure from the any estate as defined in article present system of the judiciary is 31A or of any rights therein eought to be introduced under the or the extinguishment or very comprehensive clause, namely modifications of any suc*i clause 46, which deals with the pel- rights by way of ceiling cn ting up of administrative tribunals agricultural land or in any and other tribunals. It is true that other way; tiibunals manned by experienced ad- ministrators will expeditiously dispose (e) ceiling on urban property; of service matters. There is one (f) elections to ‘either House of difficulty. The jurisdiction of all Parliament or the House or courts, including High Courts is sought either House of the Legisla- to be excluded in matters which fall ture of a State but excluding within the jurisdiction of the tribu- the matters referred to in nals. If an employee is dismissed and article 329 and article 329A; hip grievance is not redressed to his satisfaction by a service tribunal the (g) production, procurement, sup- only remedy left to him is to rush to ply and distribution of food the Supreme Court located in N'ow stuffs (including edible oil- Delhi. How exorbitant and prohibi- seeds and oils) and such other tive is litigation expenditure is known goods as the President may, by even to rich persons. In a country public notification, declare to where the employees range from be essential goods for the petty officials to white-collared offi- purpose of this article and cials, it would be virtual denial of control of prices of such justice to many officers if they are not goods;” given a chance to place their matter before the High Court even on points of law. What is the difference bet- All these are very good provisions in ween the calibre of a judge of the So far as they would fall within th'e high court and the judge of the sup- jurisdiction of the Tribunals. We do ifeme court, except that he has not not stand for the view that the Gov- been promoted from that court to this ernment’s policy and action on essen- .court? If the matter can be inter- tia l aspects may be paralysed by a preted effectively and adequately and long and protracted delay in litiga- independently, by the judges of tha tion in civil or criminal Courts in- supremfe court, why can it not be Asm cluding tha highest one in the coun- 87 Conititution NOVEUSUR 1,19W C44*h Awdt) Bin «f
ISbrl & B. ShifclaJ the J#w an4 if they are not tonftcttoe tag properly, then #*jr should fe» try. But another provision has been dismissed. Let the Judiciary be man- made ihat all offence* relating to ned in some other way. But I do theft matters shall be excluded j&rsm understand that a count*? which Is the purview of any Court except the wedded to democracy, where the ndft Supreme Court under Article 136. of tew is the bed-rock of this system Under the present gtate of affairs that judiciaxy should be treated hi we have got 4 gradation* of Court*— such a cavalier and uncerimonious the Court of Magistrate, the Court of fashion. Therefore, my submission if Sessions Judge, the High Com and that so far the offences relating t f the Supreme Court Now, if a person matters enumerated in 8&3B *re con- has contravened a provision of Essen- cerned, they should not <*U withkl tial Commodities Act, he has to be the purview and jurisdiction of these tried by a Court of the Magistrate II Tribunal*. It ia sought to be provided the offence 1* more serious, more under article 32SB that the appro- serious punishment is called lor, he priate legislature may provide for the will be committed to the Sessions procedure, including the law of limita- Court He will have the right of tion, evidence, etc. The Evidence Act appeal to the High Court from the obtaining in our country is an Im- Sessions court. The bail application provement even on the law* *f can be moved only in this Court. Now, evidence obtaining in the UK. It is all these matters will go only to Tribu- not merely a figment of imagination nals under Article 46. In the Direc- of aome technical brain. It is based tive Principle* of the Constitution, a on human psychology and experience. very noble principle was adopted that Suppose some State legislature pro- “it shall be the duty of the State to vides that hearsay evidence is admis- take *teps to separate judiciary from sible. That is; somebody gays, *1 thte executive”. We have spoken have heard that such and such a per- eloquently* on the floor of the House son committed this offence.” Would while discussing the Directive Princi- that be applicable? Why should the ples that they are very good, they law of evidence prevailing in the are very fundamental for the govern- country be excluded from these ance of the country and when there is tribunals? a difference between the Directive Prin- cipals end Fundamental Principle®, the Then, it has been said that it may precedence w ill be given to the Direc- provide for its own procedure. The tive Principles. But here we are special procedure majy provide for making a very silent type of go-bye exclusion of the appearance of a law- to that salutary principle and we are yer. In the Constitution, article ^ introducing executive tribunals, even provides a fundamental right that qp worse than the Magistrate Courts. So, accused person who has been arrested my submission is that so far as the or detained shall be defended by a jurisdiction of trying the offenders for legal practitioner of hie own choio^. offence committed or alleged to have These tribunals for which special pro- bssen committed for is concerned the cedure is being provided for, may Tribunals should not have any juris- provide for the exclusion of all these diction whatsoever. After all, there things. Mr. Gokhale, who was a good are a variety of services operating in judge, a better lawyer and best poljr thia country. No single service has tieian may ponder over these provJr been erCtkfsed hi thig way as the sions. lis t him recall the words whfcA judiciary service. I do net know what he wrote down in the eoaainamorjy after a ll hag happened &at # e • » m volume of the Indian Constitution thv m m disappointed about the beh*~ the judioMvry has sfc#d the test # vttnr of the jwfidsay in this covhtqr. A te* in tirft eavntHF- H r b y w l# have made «he lew, we ba*» <*- mOHnlmVm H> with ell its f# pointed the judges, we have created failings, the judiciary has operated as ~9 Constitution KARTIKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bm 90 " a safety valve for the accumulated sary because~ Article 223A gives power ,grievances of the people. Therefore, to the Government to 'constitute a my amendment should deserve some tribunal. The power is already there. 'S'~riousattention from the Law Minis- In the Union List, for example, Item ter. No. 61 says: "industrial disputes con- cerriing Union employees". So, they have got the powers with respect to SHRI C. M. STEPHE~: The purpose the Union employees. In comparison, in Of these two new clauses, according the Concurrent List under Item No. to me, is absolutely unexceptionable. 22, you find "trade unions, industrial l dO not share the apprehension ex- and labour disputes". Because of this 'PresSed by my hon. friend, Shri Item, we set up industrial tribunals, "Shukln nor am I prepared to treat We set up appellate tribunals and we them as a reflection on the Judiciary draw up rules of procedure. The ~f this country. Tribunals are not trade unions and industrial disputes unknowj- to us. There are any num- are in the Concurrent List. So, the ber of them already established and Parliament enacts a law. The rules functioning. A country as vast as of ;procedures are also enacted. This India has: so many. problems and it is is a matter which can be done by an essential that what is known as the ordinary law, by subordinate legisla- administrative law must develop in tion. What can be done by ordinary this country. It need not be an ad- - law and by subordinate legislation junct of the formal tYPes Of courts, is now sought to be incorporated in What is necessar-y fOr the citizen is', the Constitution as if a new power if there is a grievance, there must be is being taken. So, no new provision 'a, forum where the grievance must be in the Constitution is necessary. If heard and redressed. If the citizen is you go through this clause, you will not satisfied with the verdict Of the find that two pages have been devoted first tribunal, it may also be that he only on this clause-giving all sorts of is entitled to have a second area where minor details which can be given in ,he could go and appeal whether that the rules. I would like to know how ,is called district court, high court, etc. the Ministry think about it? If this is immaterial. There must be some provision is not there, will therebe no i~dependent Persons to hear the griev- power? What is necessary is to add ance. That is all that is necessary 'employees of the State Government and that is what is being attempted. Now what is happening is, courts and corporation also'. This will serve .which know nothing of these matters the purpose. That is all I want to say on this. hear them and finally give some sort Qf judgment after setting aside what has taken place. Therefore, tribunals 'which have got specialised knowledge Coming to the proposal, there are and expertise to go into these matters two or three lacunj, which I would must, be set up. That is the spirit in like to point out. Sub-clause 2 on which administrative courts Of France page 14. says: "A law made under have been built up. clause (1) may provide for the estab- lishment of an administrative tribunal for the Union and a separate admin- : It is an admitted fact that, what is istrative tribunal for each State or for known as, administrative law has very two ro more States". When we corn- substantially contributed to the juris- pare this with sub-clause 3 on page Prudential concept and jurisprudential 15 it says: "A law made under clause area. These are the courts to be 0) may provide for the establishment cile,veloped.Now, my humble submis- of a hierarchy of tribunals". My sub- sion is this. According to ine, a new mission is that in one area you pro- article for this purpose is not neces- vide for hierarchy of tribunals and in 91 Constitution NOVEMBER 1/ 1&78 Amdt.) BiU fa
[Shri C. M. Stephefr] that the courts' jurisdiction I# barr&i; other area, you confine yourself to one but the court say# that Articles 182 tribunal lor each State or for two or and 226 are above this; and that, more States. If this constitutional therefore, they can interfere. If we provision -was not there, you could want to exclude their jurisdiction have created a hierarchy of tribunal?. unde Articles 132 and 226, we have to In spite of the provisions ‘the provi- mention it specifically; otherwise you sions of this article shall have effect cannot bar it. The courts’ jurisdiction notwithstanding-anything in any other will be barred for other purposes. provision of this Constitution’ the The overall jurisdiction is there under power under Entries 22 and 61 is Articles 132 and 226—not xner£fy taken away. That is very specifically under Article 136. It is absolutely.* stated. The provisions are ‘notwith- salutary principle that with respect \p standing anything in any other provi- these matters, the courts must not sion’. That is stated in the previous meddle. This is why we want things article. The other article gives you to be explained. It is a very salutary the overall power. Here you provide departure, and a principle established; for an administrative tribunal for the because after all, the Supreme Court is Union and a separate tribunal for the still le*t with the jurisdiction to States. In the other place you say: examine the legality of any order “a hierarchy of tribunals.” It can be which is passed under these orders. interpreted to mean that with respect And the concerned people are getting to the administrative tribunals, you wider powers because now com- have no power to constitute a hierar- plaints, disputes and everything are chy of tribunals. This comparison is covered. For everyone of these a there. Is it what is intended? If that tribunal can be provided. So far it be so, there is an absolute objection. was not so. First, there was the There must be a hierarchy of tri- depatmental enquiry; and based on bunals, i.e. an appellate area where the deparmental enquiry, after these people can go on appeal. With punishment or any such penalty, respect to foreign exchange, industrial the only place to which recourse dispute, land reform etc. the hierar- could be had was the court. To-day chy is provided for; but with respect what is covered is: disputes, com- to this, there is no hierarchy. You arc plaints, conditions of service etc. i.e. limiting it to “a” hierarchy tribunal. everything can be referred to a tri- If it is an omission, it must be recti- bunal. They get a larger right. The fied, because you will be disarmed employee o* the Government must with respect to your officers. You will understand that by this provision, not have powers to give them an their right is not going to be abridged appellate body. Why have distinc- but that as their rights and scope of tion between the two? Somebody reference are going to be widened should explain why hierarchy is men- and enlarged. This is a new depar- tioned somewhere and not mentioned ture. I am sure a new branch bt in the other area. I find that it has got law, the administrative law, will very dangerous consequences. We develop. I would request the will feel disarmed. Law Minister to consider whether the word ‘hierarchy’ is not necessary Again, I agree with Mr. Shenoy when we speak of the administrative with respect to the barring of juris- tribunals and whether the omission of diction. The only purpose that can that word, in contra-distinction with be served by this is to give power to the other clause, will not have its own implications, viz. that government witf bar jurisdiction. Even to-day w* feel disarmed in forming a hierarchy have got the Industrial Disputes Act. o* tribunals. These are my sugges- They say that the order is final and tions. Nothing more. gg Conititutum KARTIKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) B ill 94
. SHRI K. NARASANA RAO (Bob- Revenue Divisional Officer has been bitt): We ft** venturing in a big way invariably appointed as the tribunal. in having tribunals in the future. I So, in the understanding of the do not know the shape of thingB to common man, a tribunal is more or come; but to my mind, the ordinary less identical with the executive. That and common man's feelings must be is the precise reason why I am assuaged. Hitherto, we have experi- suggesting that the qualifications mented with a couple of tribunals. We and conditions of service of know about Labour Tribunals. For members of the tribunals should reasons which the Government has be provided for by Parliament or by given just now, they have decided not the appropriate State Legislature so to have them. We are now contemp- that people will know that these tri- plating two types of tribunals: one is bunals are as good as courts, and the with reference to service matters so differnece is only in name. So, I have fas as service matters are concerned, moved an amendment to give effect they are called administrative tribu- to this. nals. As Mr. Stephen rightly pointed out the nature and scope of the ad- Then, as the provision stands at ministrative tribunals, are confined to present, we do not know whether dealing with questions relating to the these tribunals are going to be ad hoc administrative personnel alone. There tribunals. People should know is no provision for an appellate tribu- clearly that these are not mere exe- nals, as used to be there in the case of cutive tribunals. So, some guidelines the Labour Tribunals. So far as tri- should be prescribed by the Legis- bunals relating to levy and other mat- lature. We have to take steps to ters are concerned, th e y are covered convince the people that what we are by the general law provisions, apart going to achieve through the tribunals from the hierarchy of tribunals. So is nothing different from what people an aggrieved party may be able used to get from the courts. to move an appellate tribunals. But, in the case of service matters, the only remedy for a person who is aggrieved I hope the hon. Minister will con- by the decision of an administrative sider my amendments as well as the tribunal is to approach the Supreme points made by my hon. friend, Shn Court under article 136. That is not a Shukla. sure method of doing justice, because it is a highly discretionary power, given to the Supreme Court under SHRI S. M. BANERJEE: I agree article 136. At this stage there is no with some of the points mentioned by right of appeal. I feel that there my hon. friends, Shri Shukla and should be a right of appeal. That is Shri Stephen when they referred to why I am submitting that there should the hierarchy. The provision sought be as administrative appellate tiibu- to be incorporated reads: na! to deal with service matters. 14 hr*. Secondly, we have to inculcate “(d) exclude the jurisdiction of confidence in the people that these are all courts, except the jurisdiction of no( executive tribunals. In fact, it the Supreme Court under article would be better to call them judicial 136, with respect to the disputes or tribunals, because people are fond or complaints referred to in clause the word “judiciary”. To give you (1);" If any Government em- an example, under the Land Ceiling ployee, Central or State, wants to Act there is a provision for a tri- go to the court, he has to go to the bunal. But actually, in reality, the Supreme Court. Constitution tKWBfttWGR I, ItW A m dt) ttU $ $
{Shri S. M. Banerjee] we accepted formation of such triton* nal*. Urntn, « W N Th* jurisdiction under article aXS was that the composition of tigs ajntndtd in INS, whw *oy ewpluyM should be changed, W* *utt«ftedifc*t could approach any High Cburt, *nd it should include High Court to Su- not the particular Court where the preme Court judgfs; it should include cause of action took place. Now he men of public eminence 404 im go only to the Supreme Court. the representatives of the employee? H ie new provision reads: in the federations or the member! of the various organisations. This “Parliament mayt by law, provide all urged to them. We thought that for the adjudication or trial by ad- some sort of legislation was coming ministrative tribunals of disputes and when the Constitution was and complaints with respect to rec- amended, our viewpoint would he ruitment and conditions of sevice considered by the Government. After of parsons appointed to public ser- that, no meeting was held; and then vices and posts in connection with in the same meet, we were told that the affairs of the Union or of any cases of dismissal, removal, compul- sory retirement, premature retire- State or of any local or other ment would not be discussed. Now authority within the territory of the Government has assumed power India or under the control ol the and they can retire a person com- Government of India or of any pulsorily without giving him any corporation owned or controlled by reason. There are 17,000 cases in the the Government.” railways and 500 cases in Defence. Those employees, whether it is Class So, this is going to affect not only I or Class II or Class III, have been the Central Government employees, served with notices of compulsory re- State Government employees, Corpo- tirement. Of course, appeals are there. ration employees but also the em- After the appeals, some people have ployees working under the public been reinstated. I have also dealt undertakings throughout the country. with four or five cases and out of It means a population of nearly 66 that, two people have been reinstat- lakhs or 70 lakhs is going to be cover- ed After all, what should be dis- ed under this tribuna1. cussed in the tribunals? This is too vague, that is “in respect of recruit- We have submitted an amendment ment and conditions of service.” wherein we say what should be dis- Either that document which was cussed or what point can possibly be given to us by the Department of taken up by these tribunals. This is Personnel was wrong or the Govern- too vague. When you say, “Recruit- ment had taken a decision after rea- ment and conditions of service" what ding that document So, our amend- does it include? When this question ment in such matters when the juris- at tribunals came long before this diction of Article 226 will be restrict- Bill came in the Parliament, the mem- ed, when Article 311 is being amend- bers of the JCM were called by the ed, when true opportunities are not Department of Personnel and certain being given to him, js as fol'owst documents were handed over to us and we discussed them. It has been P a g e 13, Une 42,— mentioned in the documents that these tribunals should consist of re- for “and conditions of service’ substitute— tired administrators. They used the words “retired administrators.” We “conditions of service, reversion were surprised to see that. We ob- discharge, removal, jected to that. We said that we did from service, premature or cejtt- not agree to that tribunal although pulsory retirement.0 9 7 CofutttMtion XABTIKA 10, 1«W (SAKA) (44th A«ktt.) Silt 98
■ghe hon. Minister may say how he cause he is a disciplined person. For «an possibly accept everything in the him, law is law—it is the Lakshman amendment Ultimately, this is go- Rekha. If you cross it or violate it, ing to be the part and parcel of the Constitution. you will be served with a ahow- cause notice and there will be dis- What do the recruitment conditions of service mean? It does not mean missal. That is why I do not want only transfer. Even transfer cases administrators to be put there. I ■will not be included in the ambit of want the High Court judges, the ■the tribunal. What else will be inclu- ded? Why then form a tribunal at all? Supreme Court judges, may be re- If the hon. Minister can assure this tired judges, and the eminent per- House that the question of dismissal, sons who enjoy the confidence of the the question of reversion, the ques- tion of compulsory retirement will be Central Government employees thro- included in it, then 1 am prepared to ughout the country to be there. -withdraw my amendment. The rever- sion in rank is a major punishment; I also want that the representatives the compulsory retirement is a major of the trade unions should also be punishment; the dismissal is a major punishment. If these major punish- there. Mr. A. P. Sharma till yester- ments cannot be included in the day was representing a big federation. ambit of the tribunal, what else can There are many persons in the House be included? Even article 311 is being amended and we cannot approach the who represent big organisations. We High Courts. In that case, why not also represent big organisations. I make it specific as to what will be think, We have to forget for a moment included. If this is done I am prepar- ed to withdraw my amendment. some decisions taken by some irres- ponsible persdns. Today, the trade As regards the composition, this is union movement in the country has another thing where We cannot pos- to sibly leave it in the hands of the re- become responsible and responsive tired officials. We want the High the national cause. So, their repre- Court judges, the Supreme Court sentatives also should be taken in the judges, may be retired judges, the tribunals. eminent persons, even retired Minis- ters and retired MPS or even existing MPs who are working in the Parlia- Then, I have moved Amendment ment, the eminent politicians, the No 575 to add the words "including eminent economists and the men of letters to be there. We do not find disputes concerning the agricultural anybody there who enjoys the confi- labour”. Supposing the agricultural dence of the public. Why I am afraid labour is not given wages under the of administrators is—I do not say that all administrators do not enjoy Minimum Wages Act—it may be a the confidence of the public; there State law—that should also be includ- are some good administrators who ed here. We want the same condi- enjoy the confidence of the public— that they will be too rigid in their tions to prevail m respect of the agri- attitrde. Once a iecisiun has been cultural labour also. The agricultral taken by some ICS or IAS officer in labour is also suffering. I think, they the services, it becomes very diffi- should also come within the ambit of colt for any officer or any adminis- trator to reverse that decision. Not the administrative tribunal—so that because he does not want it but be- justice is not denied to them. 99 Constitution » 0 m i, in s h Amdt) BUI i0< ” {Shri & 1C Banerjee] quaaUcriminal caaee being tried by With these words, X would request these Tribune!*. My submission the hon. Minijter to clarify two points. would be that whatever may be the |Jirstly, what **• the specific matter* competence and power and authority 1 in regard to service* ineluded in the of the Administrative Officers in th e tribunals and what will be their com- administrative side, they are not com- position. AH these things should be petent, so far as my opinion goes, to J spelt out. If you read sub-clause (2), preside over these kinds of Tribunals it reads: which are going to decide very crucial points relating to the rights o f “A law made under clause (1) civil servants and so many others. may— Take, for instance, income-tax cases. (a) provide for the establish^ The Income-tax Tribunals to be set ment of an administrative tribu- up for trying income-tax cases are to nal for the Union and a separate administrative tribunal for each be presided over by one Judge. Like- wise, sales-tax cases are to be tried State or for two or more States;" by three Judges, two from the Depart- It will differ from State to State. But ment and one from the Judieiary. what will be the basis of the com- These Tribunals which are going to position? I don't want him to name try very important and vital, serious the persons, but I would like him to and grave cases should be necessarily give us an idea at least as to who presided over—in the interests of should be there—whether another Bill justice and to avoid mis-carriage of is to be brought for the purpose—, justice— by a person of a rank not what other cases will be covered by less than that of a High Court Judge the Tribunal and what will be the in the case of the State Tribunals composition of the Tribunal; and, last and not less than that of a Sup- but not least, he should also cover reme Court Judge in the case of the agricultural labour. Central Tribunals. The other mem- bers can be administrative officers SHRI K. MAYATHEVAR: Mr. with the required competence and Deputy Speaker, Sir, by this amend- experience. ment we are seeking to set up Tri- Another submission of mine is that bunals both at the State level and at I am told that retired officers may be the Central level and these two types appointed to the Tribunals. I submit of Tribunals are to take up disputes, that this kind of appointment will complaints and so many other cases lead to much more corruption than arising out of the recruitment, condi- there is now because retired officials tions of service etc. of the civil ser- —whether it is an administrative offi- vants. These Central and State Tri- cer retired from civil service or a bunals will, therefore, no doubt try Judge retired from the judiciary— and decide so many cases which may will not care for any honesty in ad- be judicial in nature, some quasi- ministration. Therefore, I would criminal and some even writ cases, plead that retired people should not directly or indirectly. But these be admitted into these Tribunals. writs cannot be filed directly to the High Court or Supreme Court, but to I want to make this final point as the Judges sitting on the Administra- a lawyer. I am told that lawyers frtan tive Tribunals. Therefore, directly any court are not going to be allowed or indirectly, writ cases also may be to appear in these cases before the tried by these Tribunals. That being Tribunals. That should not be so be- so. my submission as a lawyer would cause article 19(g) guarantees the be about the persons who are to pre- right to practise any profession or to side over these Tribunals because so carry on any occupation, trade or many rights of the people are concern- business. We have already got so ed—not only cases civil in nature but many unemployed lawyers in ell rax CtoMtttatCDn k a b t c h a 1* , i m o a th A m a .) b w ioa
court*, not only Supreme Court but country. It was a very pertinaot re- gtefti High Courts, *04 we should not mark. Why i« it that you have found add to this ifeampfeymant problem fault with the judiciary which you of lawyers. I, therefore, suggest that yourself have created? I could pay lawyers should also be allowed to justified compliments to our hon. appear in these cases before the Minister as a very good judge; a Tribunals. better lawyer and a still better politi- cian, which he deserves aa a SHRI B. V. NAIK (Kanara): Mr. person, but we are not today dealing Deputy-Speaker, Sir, I have proposed with the personality of Shri H. R. a small amendment to insert the Gokhale; we are today dealing with tenure, permanency and creation of the bon. Minister to the Government Posts' after the words 'respect to’, that of India dealing with the Ministry of is, to read as: Law. I have tried to go through the entire thing as quickly as I could. "323A.(1) Parliament may, by law, provide for the adjudication In addition to the Indian Admini- or trial by administrative tribunals strative Service, which was consider- of disputes and complaints with ed as the pick of all the civil servants^ respect to the tenure, pennanncy and successor to the Indian Civil Ser- and creation of posts, recruitment vice, the Indian Police Service, which and conditions of service of persons had to be more committed because .. ’’etc. they hazard their lives for the main- tenance of law and order, the all- The first problem that strikes one India Judicial Service is being creat- is what will happen to our Public ed now on an absolutely equal basis. Service Commissions. The Public Hereinafter, any District Magistrate Service Commissions, under article cannot say to the District Judge that 320, are cast with some responsibility he as a milligram of more weight as in this sphere. A suggestion has been far as his merit is concerned. This is made by our friend, Mr. Shivnath fair enough and the Indian judges Singh, that we should be able to needed it. give to these Tribunals which we will be constituting even powers of re- But, Sir, this is in the face of pro- cruitment and everything in regard mises held up to the technicians in to these. It is v ery difficult to disagree this country for the last two decades, with him If you are creating a Con- the engineers, the doctors, the techno- stitutional body and this Constitution- logists and the builders of the nation. al body is considered to be good This process was initiated by our great leader, Pandit Jawaharlal enough to do almost everything which the Supreme Court or Nehru. These are the people, who are the High Courts were doing, and also the builders of our country; they build roads, hospitals, factories, they something more, I think, there is no reason why almost the entire respon- make two loaves of bread in place of one. At the time, when we sibility of keeping our services, the are going ahead with the recommen- Government servants, including the servants of the public sector enter- dations of the Swaran Singh Com- prises, in shape and keeping than mittee the major casualty has been committed for the greater good of the the engineers and the doctors, as also nation, should not be given to them. the other technicians, productive ele- The debate has been going on, not ment in our society, the scientists, only today but also on the other the experts and others. They have not found favour in this amendment. Still, days about this; very indicating re- my friend, Shri B. R. Shukla found marks have been made by our friend, that the judiciary in this country was Mr. B. R. Shukla that you are victi- being discriminated; that there was mising the judicial services in this 103 CtaMttutto* ROVEMBXB 1 ,1W« (Uih Amdt.) BOI 104 XSbzi B. V. Naik] moved? We need the same political injustice against the hon. Justices support a* it needed tor a constitu- m lp m ln g OUT VSripUS COUftfl. I haVC tional amendment. $ut the Itonbers no brief for one group as against the who constitute this high tribunal are other; after ell, the people who put just the appointees of the Govern- u s here are quite different. ment by the order, and in the name of the President of India. Under the We have been jolted by Sardar circumstances, I think, without look- Swaran Singh in regard to the tri- ing deep into what we expect—out of bunals and ihe members who are S®’ these Tribunals which are expected ing to constitute our tribunals. I am to substitute, if we do not constitute quoting from his able address on the these Tribunals with full powers and 21st August, 1976 in the Kengal Hanu- full position and give them the same raanthaiya Endowment Lecture at protection as equivalent to that given Bangalore. He said: to a Judge of a High Court, they "It is the Committee’s hope that will not be of much help. The other the Tribunals will be manned by day there was a furore when it came persons of highest integrity, inde- to the conditions of recruitment of a pendence and requisite calibre and High Court Judge. We know that that Parliament when it makes the they are able, worthy and eminent law in this respect will make ade- people but I am really surprised by quate provision therefor” the strength of the lawyers’ power in this country which is displayed These future hon. Members of the here, that they do not think even a all-India Tribunals, who except for one simple saving clause in which Member with all the eminence like there is an appeal to the Supreme Mr. Banerjee is fit enough to go into Court, shall for all other purposes, the high ranks of the Judiciary. I be equivalent in responsibility cast would, therefore, say and I have only on them, except one Article 336, which no submission to make. Now we have the hon. Minister know whereunder constituted some T ribunals.... an appeal can lie against the order of the supreme Tribunal of India, and MR. DEPUTY-SPE AKER: When? still the conditions of the members SHRI B. V. NAIK: ... in the State constituting this high tribunal of this of Karnataka under the State law as country are not going to be protected assented to by the President. So it has under the Constitution. As rightly got relevance. All these Tribunals told by Shri Banerjee, it might be, have been constituted with full as usual, that these tribunals will con- powers. I would suggest that the Tri- sist of retired civilians, retired ad- bunals at least in respect of land re- ministrative officeits and retired forms, many of them, wherever they judges. Is it that we are going to have been manned properly, have make a departure? Is it that the cul- done good job. But I request tural milieu and the cultural environ- the bon. Minister in the same breath ments in this country are ready to to examine the composition of some accept this departure, that we think of the Tribunals that have been set up that certain task can be performed by in some States like Karnataka and only certain people? Otherwise, why offer them some advice regarding re- is it that for any action against the cruiting them___ judge of a High Court or the Supreme Court, there is a special provision and MR. DEPUTY-SPEAKER: Kindly the convening of this august House conclude now. and order given by the majority of Members of this House, and two- SHRI B. V. NAIK: I have some thirds majority of those present and more points to make but in due defer- voting, and only then he can be re- ence to your wishes, I conclude now. 105 CoMtffNtion KABTXKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill 106
41 w w ftii (dfw) 's t t b w »nfrt*r, ^ m e m # sr*rr0‘ *Wlr tft ^ftnsr t i f t t R t i *pr fJT vrm r m nr ww % An* **nnr to t rr % «ra ttrt 3 * w r $ t f t ^ fc f t 7 snr f i ^ $* f ^ ; - rr^r 3*rr st rmff if tjv ^ ^fW TT *f tft ?ft f|g y m f t «m r $tft i % m 3R?rr ^ ^t»ft i % tftfhnr fcr ftnrr ft? t p t ^ f ^ ^ v^rr ^arr gr TT®T 3TTT sfttf, ^fsr^RTf, *J*ITRr, ftr^H j^sr^ vtnrfiff *rw sft*r, *^p'i^', TnnPTH, f*r$K ^rrf^ gftarrarr^ ^m^rrvf ^ v t f k f t & 3f5Rfwr f t & srrft^F 5"f, aft 3pt srRrWtr $ srr *f?r £ ffr fm ft **w *iT*tr* i fli fTsrui VH^f *rr WtTS & ^ 5 7 ^TT ^ > T 5TV snrf ^?t T5T ^ rr w rft ^ r r I ft*T JHfTR ^ f t % srRrftrftr «rfiw? ^ uTtr* fp^Fr *rft jtpt# w r fsfofar rftar t # zmt, qr?r $ft»r srfcw? ^sr ?r%*IT ? 3T? fif? ^ ^ 7^ - arr? aft snwr f t v fo rrf f t ?r*n^ $, iftx **r f t 5nr?rr tft *n? !rr^fy f f I ^ 3ft ?f*toPT *PT *T9TT | t ft? sm r sw t, 5*pt *fir tf ta ^ wfttnr ? t (hmi ^ i «n*$ w ^ ^ ^ *n^r ffar cr> 5ft JT'vrr | ^ ^ sm^rr i | far %?rsr tr*? x n *t ^ <^? ^t f$5^“ JT?T ( v f k ^ r ) f t w m r $ r ft i fiw w H K ^ i;) : * * rf^ q'rfhw fWT | ft? tpF f? «lfFr ^ r m r ^ ?{wr?dr ^r art tth t if % ^rrsrn: t c %rrsr^T°T w n r Tsfr »rf | «tt: f t ^ R (fjsq^T ) f t OTTO $>ft T^r I I ^ 5TFT3K f w *RT ^ ft? f t ?rrft? 5pr?rr sftsr *n*r f w ?r% i fij^*T?5r 3ft z * it m tft q r faq; t f t tftftlH 619, 620 f t ^ R ^ I T : f t x 621 f ? H i ^ w u $ ft? ftrfa *reft t*; fVsrn: ^ i «rftr Production, procurement, supply «TT3r %for r »rr, -q=F rgq tW CTTTRT |£t ftfftrrrw ftrs] . nrW? fsr w W KW ww TV fiRT t t ff ^ ^ W t v m r wrfifr i *rrft vfrrm, *ft e f im x x * f& * g m ^ Ikufrtfn, w m x «rrf* ?rt x * * $ f m i ff m*nr wifw | fa ftw | ifft *pt tfweT w ft fsrepft yft ^ fftn w ’jfsr | fa*r ^r?pr % qtftnw ftwr fafaw # n«rr | fa f?*j- | *w % sftwtrii, 4tpnw« jf?f *r*r «rrfV ?w * tP r ir?irf, Tir’fT faw« p^ v r trfisrvrx * * *tor qft «n % w o t $■ W «TRT 5>TT I fftftrcr «pt ferr | fa^ra sft wrirttr 3f $TT t o t | o t « v $ ^ftf*r«r wnr ^»r if wjw fa# «ft w x forr (, ?ro mx fiwr t fa q *fT anmft | ^nfft *m nrr it qtaRr q* 3 farozspr ^ r ?rm err ?if qftf ffh *ht $tar wk x tfite «pt jfttft^ H?ft^r vt4 it qi T^r, f w ^ ^t *rr ftor wft % rr i there have been occasional exces- ses and that experience has demons- f«T 5T5*^9?T *>T ^ t &?WT ?>n trated the need for certain adjust- v t v tf % wsnrar w k ments here and there.” 9H$ $#3f ?l^t' * T f I fa *TR % «rm *ift wr vhrcr ?w fttft ft am fcarr* m * tp? nw m ^ r v t t r f t w ft % fa*, *rWf «pt wvprcr wr vrcrcft wpfrt *ft ft*nr srrar [*tt m n p * ¥WT] India or under the control of the Government of India or any Cor- c m a ia w rm f*n ft poration owned or controlled by* ?rt*wr trv tfrA tft% w w «rmT the Government”. *rroft *rar wft wrf^t i ^ fa 5* ? T W F r q ^ r % jp^?t tfh: «a% «TN % mfefrH 226 fST fcar I fVrf^T «rr? ?ft«T gsfta-^ «n^»nr i fa «rqr statsrc ♦)« y t fear i fa ffo sfftfterr ^ f*rr*r f> ir i «nft u tM qrifiy rv t vt* % i«p *rrc*ft aata *?r f t I , ^TPJJT ?ft *nft st^tt t a w 1 1 * a afc aafrr !r faarr « r fsar «ftr «nr*r % ^ fear fr s*f j r * * ^ 3r f^r ?fea 5f f^pT^r fW t, a*i r z saar fta r xftn *ft 3a % ar«r *t ?5?TT*irtf Tjt^r s^tftnT i ^Trarw R , %mr a ft ftcrr | a*t t ft * gsta ^ a^TTTtf f at ^pt ^>?r CTPTT f> *r U rtT a? tft a a fTFRT *T 35f *rr a^TTre? it t|»tt i s tr^ t ?pfta aft stow arrftaa are ^ i a f t o ?*na f t *rarr | ? *fft ^ srf ara ^iftt g far wr fpfta *\ £ * r fsp fafgrar sftatar *> wat a^raftsffr a%*rr ? ja ^ t amfT t t a sn>TT ufaasr ftar, ajar v?t tjTn E^ifft, sftat«rr f>TT I W& aft 3TT5T af $ fa fasffta ft»rr i crw ?r> | f«r» jaw 3r at *nara if *aaT | eft aa fa^rn §rfra fg^ m a ^ s?ta *TT *R£ta sfasjfcfifSaaa f r a 5FT ft ’TT? afiftft af | *ftr ^a*ft a^ft ft af | gsfta sptr eft fo*ft ?r fc, atr f^a sr %m fa^sa S at ^rrfasra ftor ? f% a^rr wna aft TiaT wt o t , % tpF ^Tfyti aT^ f o f c ^ w ?a 5ft ^ jpta *ftr asfar qmfa»a ^ t a w *rk ^fr *t +vii 1 1 a tw r aaaa? ijn H t ar^ %^T5T f!»r g^Tf^r aTf?a, frcf% ^la^g aifg^, ^ tt i sTN?ra»^a f’m r f, ^ a f snaa i *na ?5nft f^T^ T M T^TT I 142ft *ft TTt ^ft?T rn r | ^rat artt ^ 3r— a f asrfa aaiat a T ^ %, at « r t a?f?a ftsar srr a%ar i "Parliament may, by law, pro- vide for the adjudication or trial by administrative tribunals of disputes fasft »ft aa aT a^f and complaints with respect to re- ^ tt, t arraaT ar^rr jf fir faftrar cruitment ahd conditions of service sfttftaT vta «rnj; ff ar aft ? 3% of persons appointed to public ser- vices and posts in connection with *a % fW r ?fta a^‘^ (ga | : — .the fajita of thp Union or of any State ot of any local or any other (1) “which shall be under thfr authority within the territory of direct control and supervision- K13 Ccmfttiittikm KABTIKA 10f 1988 (SAKA) (44tH Amdi) Bi» II*
o f the hi^h court In whose SF»r«ft 735^W^*Nr^i^R,d ^ f’TVT^ jurisdiction the tribunals have been established”. j * f , is o * t farr »wt 1 1 «Tfr 31 *row ?w *?Y (2) “and of the high courts farf?r$ 1 sft’tf ^trtttit zrrf^vr *rf*rf?r under Article 226 should be inserted*, %«T¥TT *TTH*ff < R f e ^ I T ^ qrr ipjfte Pptt *t 1 14a (3) “as laid down in the Code of wtPrw! Jpt fz x ftm frin w «tt r Civil Procedure”. STVTT IRT PBT fiprTT ^ *R 14 $rf f r o t «*rf«Ri*ff v t 8r ^ ftwr *wt i »?? I ft r f O T f O T f ^ ?m f ?r«rT fafirsT sffeftar qtar * 5 $ -s to t 1 5 5 ^ W«PT 180 5>»rf I JTSSTJ^I fo»TT atptt ^t%5T 1 wntfV ?ft *rr ftr k v r t . o t sfrff f|fam % *rrr « m r ^ * m r *ar 3TT% ?r w f ft^TT ^cfY I | $>TT? snriOT | ¥ g f^p r Jr *rw ^t% ar%*rr 1 jfsft *r$ftw «rcrw ft? ^ fftr «rsr^:f % p ? % ?rf% ^t% «rt 5W sr^rr 1 eft ^tfiw from* arPKiaff Vt *Fclf ^ t ’sngcTT | I OT ?>T?r|i^«ftsF^r^5rT|t, *n? sfftrt tit «F|fV eft ^ t STF5T ^ *FT srestfftpr ^ f>iT *ftr srrot «m r fw rr ^rf^r 1 ff t h r | ft? grW t f % fft &W * ^TT $>IT 1 wv^rfczff ^tarf ^*tt^ qr ^ fs^ m r srr t & t 1 sw ttrr ^ «ft m rnmn wpsft (qrz^n) 1 STTT | f«P ^ ? n w f «Pt «ft 3WTST *Ift^T, fzTW F ^ft 9TTT 46 % (gs^qgr # ^3T 3rr 1 ffirr smnrffw wfin >7qrT tit w m r 3Tff ^ f | » j ^ 3rr% ?n^ $ f%rq m 323T *ftr ^ ?ft*ff 5ft ^F«r OT^f %3rr-^f?r fw ff % fa* yfa»-<»rf t it % srmwf *Ft wtt I, sjfq? f*n$ STfs®* 323 WTC % * t *hftoR, 479 ?T^f t»r «ftr v4=enffWt v t !«rnr *r^f 480, fa* »T* t I f??rr ?w*i 1 2 tr f f r # ?nr ^ft»r ^ ftir, Sfr?r ? t w t « t o t t tftftaRr 479 % s m % tt qft w f t ijt % $r f*T5rr^ anSr wt»f? v t $c * W f” % STS "«TST*JTf %«^?T5r ^f m i *(ft r % fatft v4vr % 5T>T faTTEft n ff % ift I ’PT vftp n x 3PFT fW TT tft w i i r n m w ft t tft «rtft uttf^ | > $*tft# ^ irjitor 323V % *ww * $mrr f t n ftnrr i tftirwtft^r tftfhrr 5?51 i tfWt tft ^ntft ^ tf% | ^ tft <% 5|w I * % wf** «rn% x&t fen wnprr ? t *nr wnr 11 fiwtff % ftft vfevxw *rfe«r ^ tft vTVT snSVTff 1? VHTn *f|T t w 3ITcnrr ?ft C T T ^ rr^fPTT ? amr*tftfctftTTT3*rsR*?r?3S ?rc?% tft «TWV ftl% w?r ftnu ^ ftWT ^JT f t ^ R ft f *f£T «TCT tratftar tft strt snj | ft? «rnr% «w % TR faff UT? irrw flTfTT f ? ^ VTT g qrafta? irfiwnw ns?r *wtft »*t ^ rn p f jw tftr tjv «rffc*T ^r’r | % 1 f5R f w f t «TT TT^iT *RT TT tft^r^prtftrtftTO V Txjf» «wr w finrro »ifer *#*ft (»r) tft ?t o b *5 w o n * h ij ftwT ?f f»ra?nrT ftwr ^■rtt t tft *rf^TT * m tftr y w ^IT tfttft Sr v n m b j r fssrnrr ^jfT — tfhitPw fw w ?r^ ^? «ri ^prtftr tft »nw tf tr «?f3r^> fa*TC % *TT*W? tft ^FT UTfiT- ^ | tftr tr *r%m 9r^t tft *p* t % i f* tffr *n$t firarc «rfrw tft ^m*w f i ^ % ft? ^ * s tftfitft ft? fftr *f*n? w f r xjwt ?ra?nSf % wsrr t # f i s tft v # f*TTt tfltft tftftflPT 1 1 *rq? It tf ^ rt w w j^tJw r tft ^
*r<% % faq ftft if vrr 1 5 .9 0 h n . w 1 1 g stftft tft *ptp?t % ftr* SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: There has v t t w r 1 1 %ft?*r sfrsw f been a very interesting discussion and w f a i fW t tftr *jfaft*r *nrfcf <*x ^ r naturally on a subject like this f, v w pfrr f t# f J *rcnft[Shri H. R. Gokhale] ‘Conditions of service' is « very nals becomes necessary in industrial wide term. Rules sore framed to* disputes. Therefore, the thing is that government servants laying down the purpose of putting hierarchy here when a person can be rrtired, when, was quite different and not put in he can be retired prematurely, in here was deliberate. It is not a draft- what manner action can be taken ing error or mistake. against him for misconduct, etc. T he We have referred to many matters whole gamut of what you can des- among the functions of the tribunal. cribe as conditions of service of a One is to punish for contempt. It government employee is already pres- cannot be given by a statute unless cribed in the rules which are statu* the Constitution authorises it. You tory. Sfo far as industrial matters know under the Constitution, subject are concerned, it is now recognised to the supreme power of the Supreme that once standing orders are formu- Court in respect of contempt, power lated according to the procedure laid to punish for contempt :s being exer- down in the Industrial Disputes Act cised by courts, which is the normal or other Acts, they form part of the hierarchy of courts and not tribunals. conditions of service. When tribunals So, a specific provision to enable com- give awards in adjudications and say plaints of contempt of tribunals being that the wage should bs X and not tried is necessary. That can be done Y, it becomes statutorily a part of only by a provision in the Constitu- the conditions of service of an em- tion itself. I do not want to go into ployee. Private employment is not eacti of these matters. All I want to covered here. But there conditions say is, to the extent it was possible of service are governed by the con- to avoid a very elaborate enumera- tract of employment. Wherever there tion of all these things, it has been is a body or authority which is a pub. done. But while we give power to lie authority, the conditions of employ, Parliament to do things by legislation, ment are laid down in the statutes even that power should not be so tin- creating the body or authority or the restricted that the very purpose for byelaws. In the case of universities, which you are setting uo these tri- they are laid down in the various ordi- bunals is not transgressed. When the nances or statutes framed under the law is made, it will be subject to the respective university Acte. All these restrictions laid down here and the are conditions of service. All these tribunal will not be anything more matters which, under the relevant or less than what is contemplated rules or byelaws or statutes or pro- under article 323A and 323B visions under the Industrial Disputes Some apprehension wa.s expressed Act or standing orders, are regarded about the reference here to conditions as conditions of service will be recog- of service and recruitment. One hon. nised as conditions of service for the member referred to public service purpose of these tribunals. There i* commissions. I do know how the public some apprehension that 311 is not service commission comes here at all. part of the conditions of the service. It is not the intention that the tribu- I would say that there is no other nals will be recruiting agencies. Re- article giving the conditions of service cruitment will be done in the same which has the maximum of force than manner as before, by the UPSC or the conditions of service in 311 because State public service commision as the it has a constitutional guarantee and case may be. Where the recruitment that an employee cannot be removed can be made now without going to or dismissed or reduced in rank un- the UPSC it will continue to be made less the procedure, giving an oppor- as at present. What is being made a tunity etc. is followed. So, nobody can function of the tribunal is to go into go against the constitutional man- any complaint or any grievance or date to retrench an employee or re* any dispute relating to recruitment. duce him in rank unless certain R e c ru itmint itself is not the function things are done. This is much more of any wt these tribunals. jgftl CwutUmtkm X A BX R A 10, 18M (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill 122 m condition of servioe of «very Gov* other side. There is no intention at «mment employee than any other the present moment, to do anything condition of service, anywhere in the of that kind. My persmal feeling is rules or anywhere in the statute. If because I cannot commit the Govern- you cannot go to the court in 311 and ment at this stage, the policy with the real grievance of dispute arises regard to these matters will be deter- as to whether article 311 has been mined, will be formulated. I do not complied with or not, I have per- know why while in extraordinary sonally no doubt that all tribunals matters which go before the High will be entitled to go into the ques- Courts you are allowing lawyers when tion under the relevant statute which the same jurisdiction is being trans- will govern the adjudication by tri- ferred to the trunbais, the lawyers bunals which will be set up by these should not be permitted. But all that statute. But it is not correct to say I can say at the moment is that this that a tribunal will have the power is a matter which is still open. The to issue writ. That power is not given Government will take a decision later to the tribunal because the power to on. But there is certainly no provi- issue writs is not the power under sion in the Act that lawyers are to be the conditions of service of the em- excluded. ployees. That was an extraordinary remedy and which was quite appro- priately described by the courts also, With regard to the composition of the tribunal, I have already stated which was given by the Constitution for certain purposes. And when that that while it is difficult to lay down in remedy is being taken away in res- the Constitution the formulation, the pect of these matters, power of ap- composition of the tribunals, the composition will certainly be laid peal under 326 to the Supreme Court down in the statute when it will be is provided for. There has been no brought before the Ho u m for consi- intention in any part of the proposed constitution amendments, to take deration. It will depend on the nature of the tribunal, the purpose for which away from the Supreme Court which the tribunal is going to be set up as is the highest adjudicating authority to how the constitution of that tribun- in the country and in which all of us al should be. All that I can say is to and everyone in the country has the repeat what I have said earlier that utmost confidence,, this power. There- it will be the Government’s endea- fore, looking at it from this back- ground, in this perspective, there is, vour to see that the tribunal is com- according to me, no necessity, no justi- posed of the people who will inspire fication for any doubt that the tribu- confidence. It will not necessarily be nals cannot function properly given composed only of judicial persons the cooperation from the employees, although I personally think that it is the workmen and other people who are necessary that at any rate some repre- likely to be covered by the tribunals sentatives of those who have judicial and the cooperation of the authorities experience ought to be there on these which will set up the tribunals. Now, tribunals. It is not absolutely neces- it is true that in respect of these tri- sary that everyone of the tribunal bunals some things have been men- should have that experience. I have tioned that lawyers are not going to got the example of the Income-tax be allowed. One hon. Member has Appellate Tribunal. We have judicial said that lawyers may not be allowed. members, we have the accountant Now, nothing is mentioned that law- members. The Tribunal is function- yers will not be allowed. It is a ing extremely well and even t^o-ie well known fact that lawyers have people who have gone before the heen excluded in some of the tribu- Income-tax Appellate Tribunal have nals. For example, under the Indus- told me and have spoken on the public trial Disputes Act, a lawyer cannot platform that the Income-tax Appel- appear unless there is consent from late Tribunal as it is constituted today, 1*3 o m mrnm: m/mam v i m m t k A»dfc> « m tan
[Shri H. R. Gokfeale] SHRx H. R. GOKHALE; I eettttpt is the best example to ehow hear tbe give any ^ssariftce; but ati 1 trim tribunal* if properly constituted* o n say is that when the ttae eatMs yaUr create confidence. X can say that the suggestion, being a good out, will be Income-tax Appellate Tribunal's deci- borne in mind. sions -are rarely interfered with by the High Courts and the Supreme Court SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: Is it pro- because the quality of {heir work has posed, in the ease of matters relating been found to be sufficiently good aa to disputes and complaints regarding to inspire confidence. Suggestions recruitment, conditions of service etc. have been made ; they will be that only those disputes will be taken up by the tribuals which are Speci- borne in mind. A suggestion says fically referred to them by the Gov- that we must have a trade union ernment; or can the aggrieved representative, another one that some employee go, suo moto, to the Tribu- public men should be there and still nal? another that no administrator should be there. I cannot say that there will be no administrator, but it is not to SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: There is suggest that public men will not be nothing of that type here; I do not there or that other people like repre- think it is the intention to provide sentatives of the people who know for a reference. But as I said, the industrial law will not be included. power to refer to the High Court All that I can say is that at the moment which was there, is not going to be I cannot indicate what will be done, there. For going to the High Court, but that all these angles will be borne there was no reference needed. Any- in mind before a final decision for one can go. Looking at the scheme bringing in the proposed tribunals is of the proposals, I do not think there taken; and the tribunals’ composition will be anything in a reference. w ill be brought in here before the SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: In the Parliament for being enacted into law. case of labour diaputes which go for This, broadly, is the approach. (In- adjudication to tribunals, they have terruptions) So far as agricultural to be referred by the Government; workers are concerned, I believe there otherwise they cannot go. are no agricultural tribunals as such. The land reform tribunals are there. SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: With refer- Land tribunals are there in various ence to industrial disputes, in the first States; and there is provision here instance there is reference by govern- with regard to land reform tribunals. ment, unless of course under section That has been taken care of. 10(2) both of them agree. That is a different matter. But we are not Taking all these aspects into account, changing it here. You know how the the present proposal is to set up tri- appellate tribunals were constituted bunals* which is a departure, as I when the Act was there. May be it said in the beginning, from the exist- was at that time restricted only to a ing system; it is a good thing. It has few matters, if I renw toer a right. been generally well received in the It may be that the whole scheme can country and generally accepted by be looked into, to see whether it the Members of this House. should be widened; but how can I anticipate anything at this moment Sir, I commend this for acceptance. and make any positive statement? SHKt S. M. BANERJEE: Before bringing in legislation on the adminis- SHRI SHANKERRAO SAVANT trative tribunals, will you say that the (Kolaba): Will the compositions and employees’ representatives, who were functions of the tribunals at the State consulted earlier, will be consulted level also be covered by the Central now so well? Act? 1*5 Constitution • K&KTOKA 19, UM iSAXA) (i4tk Amdt.) bill iatt>
SHRI H. B. GOKHAXJg: I t is i t e r . Page 16, lin e 4*— kfy friend ia a vwy eotpariepoad law- yer. Hexp.tt % the Central Government after “the population” insert— which does it for the State and for the Centre. And there can be a “of all the Scheduled Castes tribunal lor one State or for more and Scheduled Tribes as deter- than one State, depending on the mined by law from time to nature of the tribunal. time and” (268). SHRI KARTIK ORAON (Lohar- SHRI K. NARAYANA RAO: There doja): I beg to move: is a reference to the corporations owned and controlled by the govern- Page 16, line 4,— ment. Prime facie, the expression includes public undertakings also. But after “the population” insert— here the words ere: “controlled by the government” What is meant by ‘‘‘of all the Scheduled Castes “by the Government”? Does it include and Scheduled Tribes as deter- Government of India and also the mined by an Act of Parliament governments of the States? from time to time and” (425). SHRI P. R SHENOY: Clause 47 0f SHRI H R. GOKHALE: That is a the Bill seeks to amend the provisions well-known phrase that has been relating to the reservation of seats lor defined in the Indian Companies Act. Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to the various Legislatures. SHRI K. NARAYANA RAO: I want The Explanation which is sought to to know whether the public under- be added to article 330 reads: takings under the State Governments are also included in this. “In this article and in article 332, the expression 'population* SHRI H R. GOKHALE: That is means the population as ascertained what I am saying. There is a differ- at the last preceding census of ence between the Government com- which the relevant figures have been panies and the public-owned corpora- published?” tions Perhaps, the Government com. panies will not be included. But I do To this a proviso is sought to be not know; I cannot give a positive added as follows: answer. “Provided that the reference in Clause 47.— (Amendment of article this Explanation to the last preced- 330) ing census of which the relevant figures have been published shall, MR. DEPUTY- SPEAKER Non- we until the relevant figures for the take up clause 47. first census taken after the year SHRI P. R. SHENOY: I beg to 2000 have been published be con- move: strued as a reference to the 1971 census”. Page 16, line 4,— Alter the last preceding census of (i) after “the population” 1971, we have added a number of insert— Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes to the existing list. Under this “of all the Scheduled Castes proviso, as it is worded, the increase and Scheduled Tribes entitled in population amongst the Scheduled for reservation of seats under Castes and Tribes due to the addition this article** (36). of new Castes and Tribes will not be X27 Constitution HOVSMBSB 1» iW i Amdt) Bill
[Shri P. R. Sfcentty] been adopted earlier. We cannot taken into consideration till 100# any change in this clause because the A.D. which is not fair. Therefore, scheme.haa to be the same. I would request Shri Gokhale to accept my amendment, which says Clawe 4S— (Amendment of article -that the population of Scheduled 392.) Castes and Tribes which has increas- ed as a result of the addition of new SHRI INDRAJIT GUPTA: I beg to Castes and Tribes should be taken move:— into consideration for fixing the number of seats for them in the Page 16, line 14,— various Legislatures. for “specified in the Proclama- SHRI KARTIK ORAON (Lohar- tion”. daga): We have passed the Scheduled substitute “resolved by Parlia- Castes and Tribes Bill, 1976 on the ment” (576). 2nd of April 1976 by which we sought the removal of certain area Page 16,— restrictions. As a result of that Act, the population of Scheduled Castes omit lines 15 to 23. (577) -and Tribes is likely to increase to the tune of 5 million. But, if I have «it famqmfag (3 ¥ < n n *'K ): understood the Constitution (Forty- s t o w m * r * r r n fourth Amendment) Bill correctly, it says that it will take into account the f ft? qft art srfspMT | census figure of 1971, which means JFT 3«Wt f t arra ft? «TR that it will overlook the Act which % sr'smr r jpt’t «ft»R|t request the hon. Minister to accept it. »rmV qft r< r srglr qis^rr, qrqqJV qnSf v t ycr «n|t q???rr u rn s ift faSr if SHRI H. R. GOKHALE: This is a •clause similar to the one which has wfor | eft sofa* % ftr tft® ipro IS » ConOttUtion K A X H K A 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill 130
4 f t % * c r m 1 3n& but there is no power to proclaim finer gency which can tyg. conftoed to ®W VMV any part of the territory of India; it $ 1 Iftfofrif has got to be for the whole of India. wro *wift #, Itw t «rwf ^ This amendment is important because emergency powers are being exercised # h : * « w t «r? wrer m 1 even wherse they are unnecessary. w p iy& «tfsz t « t I ^ 3 Now^ it may not be necessary, under • 1^0 % ^ # j only in a particular part of the terri- sffa * a ^ frT^ft % ^r*r rjijo srrf o tory. Therefore, if at all this is a relaxation which is being allowed, t^o tr« 5f V?r f ^ t^rr^ | 1 t o such a relaxation is necessary in w 6 t f a t w 1 « circumstances. «5«r* 7i tft 33 ?r fa n %ftx ** Similarly, under the present Arti- srWf v t Clause 49— (Amendment of article 363. so. That is to say» after declaring Tfegaland to be an area where Em- SHRI C. K. CHANDRAPPAN ergency is to be proclaimed* - Govern- (Tellicherry): I beg to move: ment can enforce the legislation, which will be put into operation in Page 16,— that area, in West Bengal also, for example, the legislation can be put into for lines 30 to 35, substitute— operation in other parts of the coun- “(ii) the power of parliament to try also. That is what we understand make laws under clause (b) from this. If that happens, then what does it mean? It means, introducing shall not extend to any State the Emergency through the back- other than a State in which or in door. ... any part of which the proclamation of Emergency is in operation’. (578) MR. CHAIRMAN: You are basing the whole thing on a wrong assump- SHRI ANNASAHEB GOTKH1NDE tion. Kindly read the clause first; it (Sangli): I beg to move: speaks of the power of Parliament to made laws; Government cannot auto- Page 16, lines 31 and 32,— matically extend it___ omit “or in any part of which” SHRI C. K. CHANDRAPPAN; It reads: SHRI C. K. CHANDRAPPAN: I would like to bring to the notice of the House som'e facts about these new “the power of Parliament to make powers which are being assumed by laws under clause (b), shall also ex- the Government by ihis amendment. tend to any state other than a State According to this new provision which in which or in any part of which the is being added, the Government will Proclamation of Emergency is in have the power for their proclaiming operation... ’ emergency in any part of the country and parliament will make laws which MR. CHAIRMAN: It refers to the can be enforced even in those parts of power to make laws. You are pro- the country which are not under the ceeding on the wrong assumption that operation of Emergency. I think this this law will automatically be ex- is quite an undemocratic provision. tended to other parts. Just now, while answering the dis- cussions, the Hon. Minister had stated SHRI C. K. CHANDRAPPAN: After that if the Government finds it neces- enacting legislation for a particular sary that the emergency should be part of the country which is brought there only in one part of the territory under Emergency, I understand that of the country, then the Government Government can enforce that law in would not like the Emergency to be other parts of the country also. That declared for the whole of the coun- is to say, in the other parts of the try. If the position, as it is stated in country which are not under Emer- the amendment is accepted, suppose gency, Government will put into op- there is partial Emergency declared in eration that legislation by which a Nagaland, then this Parliament has part of the country has been brought the power to enact legislation in re- under Emergency. This is how I gard to that part of the country for have understood this. I may be the enforcement of Emergency. And wrong. When the Law Minister ex- if Government considers that, in the plains it, it will be clear. If that is interest of security of the country, that the case, then this is very undemo- legislation should be enforced in an- cratic and authoritarian because Em- other part of the country, they can do ergency has been brought into force 133 Constitution KARHKA 10, 1898 (SAKA) (44th Amdt.) Bill 134 only in a part of the country and if not exceeding one year at a time the laws which are enacted by Parlia- and not extending in any- case ment for the enforcement of that are beyond a period of six months after put into operation in other parts of the proclamation has ceased to ope- the country also, then practically the rate”. 4 whole country if under Emergency- That proviso remains as it is My even though only one pert of the amendment is: country has been declared to be under Emergency. This ia the apprehen- "Page 16, line 31 and 32,— sion* • • ' , Iff I omit “or in any part of which” AN HON. MEMBER: It is not worse The Constitution is an important than the present one. document; there is no doubt about it. The wordings in it should be as pre- SHRI C. K. CHANDRAPPAN: That cise as possible and there should not is a different matter. Then, we need be any word which is redundant. In not have the Amendment. Since this this particular context, ‘in any part Amendment has been brought forward of which’ is very cleat ly redundant. and the Minister also has explained that there is a reason for declaring By clause 48 of this Bill, we are go- one part of the country to be under ing to amend Article 352 of the Con- Emergency, I would like to point out stitution and are adding these words: to him that this goes against the spirit of it. That is why, we have moved “in respect of the whole of India an amendment to say: or of such part of the territory thereof as may be specified in the “page 16, for lines SO to 35, sub- Proclamation.” stitute, * The area is going’ to be specified in the ‘(ii) the power of Parliament to Proclamation issued under Article 352. make laws under clause (b) Therefore, I want to know from the shall not extend to any State Law Minister if the intention is to other than a State in any part have an enabling provision to declare of which the proclamation of emergency in any part of a State or Emergency is in operation’.” the whole State.
Our amendment seeks to clearly Secondly, my submission is that this specify the power of Parliament to proviso to clause (2) of Article 83 enact legislation and where it can be must not be made applicable while put into operation. such limited Or partial proclamation of emergency is in operation. This SHRI ANNASAHEB GOTKHINDE proviso enables the Parliament to ex- (Sangli): Mr. Chairman Sir, 1 would tend the life of the Lok Sabha by enacting the Law, while the procla- like to draw the attention of the hon. Law Minister very seriously to the mation of emergency, is in operation. point that I am making. But by this Article, we are going to have a limited or partial proclama- We have already considered clause tion of 'emergency. The question is, 17 of the Bill which seeks some am- whether after the declaration of such endment of Article 83 of the Constitu- emergency, the Parliament will still be tion. Hie proviso to clause (2) of able to use the powers provided in Article 83 is not changed and it reads: proviso to clause (2) of Article 83. As I submitted, this proviso to clause (2) VPrtyvldefi. that Hie said period of Article 83, must not be made appli- may, while a Proclamation of Emer- cable while such limited or partial gency is in operation, be extended proclamation of emergency to in by Parliament by Lew for a period operation. 135 Constituti.on NOVEMBER 1, 1976 (44th Amdt.) Bm ~3
~;i\,~~~~ ~"'~) (';'lI:r<:~T): ~-.rr- State, the emergency in Kerala can- not become effective. Therefore the q-:Ri ~~~, \ifT 'ffi~ 4 9 q"'{ ~ ~T=t '!,q" only purpose is that this is only to if »l'ifs-ifi! ~~~c f914T ~ ~Tq"i't ~B91I the -extent necessary to' make the emergency effective in the areas to' 1!~rft.;~T'li'(~rll'r ~ I ~~ 'fiT n 'fiT ~ (\';:1"1' ~l;£T~T is, the power to giVe directions and q"fCf~ ~ it> f~ f~f;:rfC:,{~T~Of 1flt1 to give executive directions to' an ad- joining State or to make certain cen- q"~~Pi ~ ? ~Tq" \lj"{T lfT'{ 'li~ I ~~if tral laws applicable to the a.djbiiling ~n:'f1n: 'fiT q'{'1) ~ 'f1~TlflfT ~ f91 ~t State becomes necessary. This is only cfi'@ t:tlJ,{~T ~