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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 20th March 2001 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: Papers Laid before the Court The (Hon N Q Cringle). In the Council: The Lord Bishop (the Rt Rev Noel Debroy The President: I call upon the Clerk to lay papers: Jones), the Attorney-General (Mr W J H Corlett QC), Hon Mrs C M Christian, Messrs E A Crowe, The Clerk: I lay before the Court: D F K Delaney, J R Kniveton, E G Lowey, Dr E J Mann, Messrs J N Radcliffe and G H Waft, with Mrs M Cullen, Banking Act 1998 - Clerk of the Council. Banking (Fees) Regulations 2001 [SD No 56/01]

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon J D Q Cannan) Investment Business Acts 1991 to 1993 - (Michael); Mr L I Singer and Hon A R Bell (Ramsey); Investment Business (Fees) Regulations 2001 Mr R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mrs H Hannan (Peel); [SD No 57/01] Hon W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); Hon S C Rodan (Garff); Hon D North (Middle); Mr P Karran, Hon R K Corkill Financial Supervision Act 1988 - and Mr G T Cannell (Onchan); Messrs J R Houghton and Collective Investment Scheme (Fees) Regulations R W Henderson (Douglas North); Hon D C Cretney and 2001 [SD No 58/01] Mr A C Duggan (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Mr J P Shimmin and Income Tax Acts 1970 to 1991 - Hon A F Downie (Douglas West); Hon J A Brown Income Tax Exemption (Managed Banks) (Fees) (Castletown); Hon D J Gelling (Malew and Santon); Order 2001 [SD No 59/01 ] Sir CBE LLD (he) and Mrs P M Crowe and Mr J Rimington (); with Mr R B M Quayle, Nursing and Residential Homes Act 1988 - Acting Clerk of Tynwald. Nursing and Residential Homes (Amendment) (Fees) Regulations 2001 [SD No 29/01]

The Lord Bishop took the prayers. European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 - European Communities (Control of Exports of Dual-Use Items and Technology) (Application) Welcome to the Acting Clerk (Amendment) Order 2001 [draft]

The President: Hon. members, this is the first sitting Electricity Act 1996 - of Tynwald to be clerked by our Acting Clerk, Robert Electricity Generation (Middle Farm Incinerator) Quayle, who has returned to us after an absence of almost Order 2001 [SD No 86/01] 14 years. We welcome him to Tynwald and hope that the few months that he will spend with us will be both Road Traffic Act 1985 - productive and enjoyable. Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 98/01 ] Members: Hear, hear. Road Vehicles Lighting (Application) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 99/01 ] Buses (Carriage of Passengers for Hire or Reward) (Construction and Use) Regulations 2001 Bills for Signature [SD No 100/01]

The President: Hon. members, we have got five Bills Legal Aid Act 1986 - for signature and if you are agreeable we will continue Criminal Legal Aid Order 2001 [SD No 103/01 ] with our business whilst they are being signed. Agreed, hon. members? Income Tax Act 1970 - Income Tax (Reduction of Class 4 Contributions) Members: Agreed. Order 2001 [SD No 101/01 ]

Welcome to the Acting Clerk Bills for Signature Papers Laid before the Court T610 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

Income Tax (Instalment Payments) Act 1974 - United Nations - Income Tax (Modified ITIP) (Amendment) Afghanistan (United Nations Sanctions) (Isle of Regulations 2001 [SD No 102/01] Man) Order 2001 [SI 2001 No.394]

Social Security Act 2000 - European Communities - Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 European Communities instruments circulated (Application) (Amendment) Order 2001 during February 2001 [GC No 12/01 ] [SD No 81/01] . Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 3) Reports and Accounts - Order 2001 [SD No 82/01 ] Financial Information and Miscellaneous Accounts Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 4) for the year ended 31st March 2000 additional to Order 2001 [SD No 83/01] the published Government Accounts and the Reports of the Public Auditors on the Accounts of Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 - Local Authorities for the year ended 31st March Income Related Benefits (Miscellaneous 2000. Amendments) Regulations 2001 [SD No 84/01 ] Family Income Supplement (General) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 85/01 ] Villa Marina - Licensing Act 1995 - Payment on Transfer of Ownership - Permitted Hours (Licensed Premises) (Temporary Question by Mr Cannell Variation) Order 2001 [SD No 62/01 ] The President: Hon. members, we now turn to the Local Government Act 1985 - question paper and I call on the hon. member for Onchan Port Erin (Boundary Extension) Order 2001 to ask the question number 1. [SD No 84 A/01] Mr Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Fair Trading Act 1996 - ask the Chief Minister: Business Advertisements (Disclosure) Order 1977 (Application) Order 2001 [SD No 96/01 ] Mas agreement been reached on the sum to be paid by the government to Douglas Corporation in respect of Student Awards Scheme 2001 - the transfer of ownership of the Villa Marina? Student Awards Scheme 2001 [GC No 11/01 ] The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply. Reports - Report of the Legal Services Commission 2000 Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President. I regret to say Second Report of the Standing Committee on that agreement has not been reached on the amount of Economic Initiatives for 2000/2001 on The Legal compensation to be paid to the Douglas Corporation in Context of Contemporary Economic Initiatives respect of the acquisition of the Villa Marina complex and Report of the Standing Committee on Constitutional the chattels specified in part 2 of schedule 1 to the Villa Matters on The Appointment Process of the Marina Act of 1999. Lieutenant Governor of the Isle of Man The hon. member’s question does provide me with a useful opportunity to explain the present situation and Social Security Pensions Act 1975 - dispel some of the rather unfortunate public comments Pensions Increase (Annual Review) Order 2001 which have been made in recent months. I shall be brief, [SD No 97/01] but I believe hon. members should be aware of the facts. I have no intention of going into the history of this Building Societies Act 1986 - prolonged issue as I know hon. members are familiar with Building Societies (Authorisation) (Fees) it. Suffice it to say that this hon. Court instructed the Regulations 2001 [SD No 55/01 ] Department of Local Government and the Environment to prepare primary legislation for the compulsory acquisition European Communities (Isle of Man) Act 1973 - of the complex, and the Villa Marina Act received Royal European Communities (Federal Republic of Assent on 14th December 1999. Section 1(4) of the Act Yugoslavia Sanctions) (Funds and Investments) provides that the appointed day would be not later than Regulations 2001 [SD No 105/01] three months after the passing of the Act, though there Dual-Use Items (Export Control) (Amendment) was also provision that the Council of Ministers could have Regulations 2001 [SD No 111/01] made an order appointing an earlier date. No such order was made, which means that the transfer of ownership took Burials Act 1986 - place on 14th March 2000. Burial Grounds (Maximum Rate) Order 2001 Section 3 of the Act provides that the level of [SD No 68/01] compensation to be paid to the corporation is to be

Villa Marina - Payment on Transfer of Ownership - Question by Mr Cannell TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T611 determined in accordance with part 3 of the Land The President: The hon. member for Council, Mr Acquisition Act of 1984 and is to be paid into the borough Kniveton. fund. Now I am pleased to say that the Douglas Corporation has been very co-operative and this ensured a smooth Mr Kniveton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I would transition to the Department of Tourism and Leisure, which just like to ask the Chief Minister, is there an agreement in now operates the complex on much the same basis as place to pay a rate of interest on the eventual agreed price previously. However, there was a delay in obtaining from commencing from the date of the handover or transfer of the corporation an agreed inventory, partly because some the ownership? items of equipment, for example, were loaned by third parties and not owned by the Douglas Corporation. These The President: The Chief Minister. issues were only finally resolved in January of this year. Following agreement as to precisely what was to be Mr Gelling: I do not think that is the case Mr President, included for the purposes of assessing the compensation, because the figure, of course, has not been arbitrated or the property consultants acting for government arranged agreed - to meet with the corporation’s agent, and I understand that that meeting took place on 8th February 2001. At that A Member: I agree. meeting the corporation’s agent raised a legal point which required resolution before the two parties could begin to Mr Gelling: - so I do not think that is the case, sir. arrive at a figure upon which agreement might be reached. It is fair to say that the Department of Local Government The President: The hon. member for Onchan. and the Environment and the Douglas Corporation would much prefer to agree on a realistic and fair figure than Mr Cannell: A further supplementary if I may, Mr have to present evidence to an independent arbitrator. President. Would the hon. Chief Minister make a statement The Attorney-General, to whom I would record my on whether he has observed that the ratepayers of the town thanks, provided a detailed legal opinion on 19th February of Douglas have been able to achieve a rate reduction as a as to the basis upon which the compensation should be result of the passing of the necessary funds to other assessed in accordance with the Villa Marina Act and organisations? agreed that this could be supplied to the corporation’s advisers. The Department of Local Government and the The President: Chief Minister. Environment now awaits a further communication from those advisers. Hon. members should be aware that an independent Mr Gelling: I do not think I am aware, Mr President, arbitrator was appointed by His Excellency on 5th of that fact. Nobody has informed me otherwise - December 2000 and the arbitrator has allowed the parties more time to seek to agree the compensation figure. Mr Delaney: No. Finally, Mr President, I wish to assure hon. members that the Department of Local Government and the Mr Gelling: - so I do not know whether it has been Environment has done everything within its powers to carried through, sir. progress this matter. There is no desire or intention on the part of government to delay paying the compensation. However, it must also be said that government, by acquiring Data Protection Act - the Villa Marina, is now both saving Douglas ratepayers a Review and Assessment - considerable annual sum and will be investing significant sums from central funds on the long overdue refurbishment Question by Mr Rimington of this complex, sir. The President: Question 2, the hon member for Rushen, The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Mr Rimington. Cannell. Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave Mr Cannell: A supplementary if I may, Mr President. to ask the Chief Minister: Would the hon. Chief Minister confirm that all taxpayers’ subsidies to the Villa Marina operation ceased when it did Given that the Data Protection Act 1986 has been pass to the to operate? in operationfor 15 years and that significant changes have taken place in electronic communication, will you initiate The President: The Chief Minister. a full review of the Act and the extent of its appropriateness to the Isle of Man? Mr Gelling: Yes, as I have stated in the original answer, Mr President, I think there was a loss of some £200,000 to The President: The Chief Minister again to reply. £300,000 a year to the Douglas ratepayers which, of course, now should cease for the simple reason that government Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, the Council of Ministers has taken over the liabilities of the complex from the date has already authorised the drafting of a new Bill to amend that it was acquired. and update the Data Protection Act of 1986. The purpose

Data Protection Act - Review and Assessment - Question by Mr Rimington T612 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 of this Bill, which we will be bringing forward as soon as Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to possible, will be two-fold: firstly, it will seek to update the ask the Chief Minister: legislation to make sure that it is compatible with the European Data Protection Directive. This will ensure that Will government monitor the price of Manx meat to businesses on the Isle of Man can continue to exchange, Isle of Man consumers to ensure that profiteering does transfer and receive information from within member states not become prevalent during the foot-and-mouth crisis, of the European Union. If we do not keep up to date there bearing in mind that there has only been limited is a risk of barriers to exchange of information being put compulsory slaughter of Manx livestock to date? in place to the detriment, I would suggest, of our local businesses. Secondly, we propose to take advantage of the The President: The Chief Minister again to reply. new Bill to learn from the experiences of the last 15 years. (A Member: Hear, hear.) This will include easing the Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, the price of meat on burdens placed on voluntary bodies and small businesses the Island is routinely monitored at a wholesale level by by the existing Act. Thank you, Mr President. the Office of Fair Trading, and that will continue. There are no movement restrictions which prevent animals being The President: The hon. member for Rushen. taken to the meat plant and therefore normal trade continues as no supply difficulties are anticipated at this time. It is Mr Rimington: I thank the Chief Minister for his reply therefore our expectation that, for the present certainly, and outlining that new legislation is to be considered. there should be little movement in meat prices. In the longer Would the Chief Minister accept that there has been a term, of course, prices will rise or fall according to supply degree of considerable concern not only within this Court and demand. about the operation of the Act but also in the private sector I would suggest that if the situation in the United and also in the media of the Island and that the legislation Kingdom and elsewhere creates a shortage of meat relative that is proposed is going to be drafted some time, I believe, to demand then prices will probably rise. We are not this summer? Would it not be useful for the Chief Minister immune from such movements and we must anticipate to initiate a briefing document that can be brought to this similar price movements in our market here in the Isle of body so that the principles of the new legislation can be Man. We will obviously keep in touch with the situation. properly aired? There is no cause for immediate concern and no reason to support that anyone is going to engage in profiteering. Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. The President: The hon. member of Council, Mr The President: Chief Minister. Delaney. Mr Gelling: Well, Mr President, as I said, it is 15 years ago since the Data Protection Act came into place; an awful Mr Delaney: I thank the Chief Minister for that reply lot has happened since that time, of course with the e- and I am sure the housewives of the Isle of Man do, but commerce and the way in which things have moved in would the Chief Minister not agree with me, the that direction, and I think even the Registrar herself will representative of the Fatstock Association, recently on the confirm that there are difficulties. However, she is radio to ask the Manx people to support the purchase of interpreting the Bill, we are convinced, correctly in its Manx meat and to ensure that no foreign meat was brought present form, therefore we will obviously take this Bill to into the Island to protect against foot-and-mouth, then very resolve some of those problems and I am quite sure that quickly increased 10 pence per kilo the price of beef. The input from members will be welcomed. However, we have gentleman’s name was Mr Bob Martin, who must have a wonderful sense of humour - would the Chief Minister asked the Attomey-General’s division to prepare a draft initially to incorporate those two points that I made, Mr agree with me or not? President; one is the difficulties locally with small businesses, and also the situation with respect to the Mrs Crowe: The price of beef has gone down. European Union acknowledging that our data protection is acceptable in line with the European dimension so that The President: The Chief Minister to reply. our businesses will not find sanctions, I suppose, being made against them to stop them trading in Europe. So, Mr Gelling: Well, first of all, Mr President, when the yes, this is a consultation situation where we want to get it hon. member refers to the gentleman he has, it is obviously right up to date, and I think we will take that opportunity, • the meat from the meat plant he is talking about and not sir. the wholesale price. Mr Delaney: So they got nothing out of it - the farmers got nothing. Manx Meat - Price Monitoring - Question by Mr Delaney Mr Gelling: The figures that I have are curious in as much as the wholesale price of the selection of meats that The President: Question 3, the hon. member of I have before me, there has been very little, in fact there Council, Mr Delaney. has been over the average about 8p less per kilo, albeit

Manx Meat - Price Monitoring - Question by Mr Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T613

that the wholesale price has risen very, very slightly. So Dealing first with the age of retirement, depending on the house person is paying no more for the meat in the the nature of employment this will be usually either 60 butcher’s shop than they were in, say, January. years or 65 years. Primarily it is civil servants who have a normal retirement age of 60, but the Civil Service The President: The hon. member of Council, Mr Commission in January 2001 introduced a more flexible Delaney. retirement policy, which means that appointments can be extended up to age 65 years, and those who have 40 years Mr Delaney: Could I ask, then, the Chief Minister: service may retire before the age of 60. Thus officers as a instead of wrapping up the answer in percentages overall, matter of personal choice may seek to have their pension would he not agree with me with the hindquarters increased benefits deferred or put into payment early. Also, where in 10 pence per kilo, yes or no? the past a small number of employment groups might have had a different age of retirement for women and men, this The President: The Chief Minister. will change so that there is a common age of retirement for both men and women. It is not an option to maintain Mr Gelling: The information I have, Mr President, is the status quo for these groups because of the provision of that nobody is paying more at this time than they were in the Sex Discrimination Act, which comes into force later January prior to the outbreak. In other words, I am trying this year. to emphasise that the movement of animals in the Island is The Civil Service Commission also has statutory not restricted for slaughter. There is no reason why the responsibility for the policy and provisions of the various meat should be dearer and my information - public service pension schemes, and the commission’s aim is to rationalise the number of those pension schemes. As Mr Delaney: I agree with him. part of its strategy to reduce the number of schemes the commission has recently decided that an interim step must Mr Gelling: - is that it is not. be to achieve greater consistency in scheme provisions. In particular, the aim is to provide for scheme members to Mr Delaney: It shouldn’t be, but it is. have benefits put into payment from age 60 years. Under the current provisions a number of schemes provide that only women are able to receive payment from that age. Government Pensions - I can therefore confirm to this hon. Court that Isle of Man Government is responding to the recommendations Flexible Arrangements - of the select committee and I am confident that, as Question by Mrs Cannell employment packages are reviewed, pension arrangements will form a part of those reviews, sir. The President: Question 4, the hon member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. The President: The hon. member for Douglas East.

Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I am most ask the Chief Minister: grateful for the very comprehensive response in reply that we have received this morning from the Chief Minister, Has your government introduced more flexible but am I correct in understanding, therefore, that under pension arrangements for its employees, as recommended the new policy which was adopted by the Civil Service in the select committee report on the Equalisation of the Commission in January 2001, apart from considering that Pension Age and Future Pension Policy of the Isle of Man an officer employed under the civil service agreement can (approved by Tynwald Court in October 1999) and, if not, extend their period of employment and retire at age 65, why not? they can also equally retire at 60 as indicated in their original Terms of Contract and Agreement when first The President: The Chief Minister to reply. joining with the civil service?

Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, the select committee’s The President: The Chief Minister. report recommendations to which the hon. member has Mr Gelling: As I explained, Mr President, yes, there is referred states, and I quote, ‘We encourage employers to flexibility being built in. However, just a word of warning: consider the introduction of a more flexible pension age' there are so many of these schemes around government and recommend that the Isle of Man Government should that I would suggest that it would actually perhaps be more introduce more flexible pension arrangements for as many beneficial to the hon. member if that person is working in of its employees as possible.’ Now, the recommendation a specific department to check which particular scheme is further explained in paragraph 10.4 of the report and they happen to be in at this time, because it could vary. focuses attention on two issues which ought to be There are a tremendous number of schemes and they all considered, and one is the age of retirement from do have a variation. Part of the revision is to try and bring employment and the payment of pension benefits under them down in number and make them more consistent, the various public service pension schemes. sir.

Government Pensions - Flexible Arrangements - Question by Mrs Cannell T614 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

The President: The hon. member, Douglas East, Mrs a significant delay in arriving at a final draft of the Pensions Cannell. Bill due primarily to staffing problems in this particularly complicated area; and furthermore, as a consequence of Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Other than the that delay, there had been slow progress on the more general schemes to which the Chief Minister has referred, can I review of investment products, a review which was to ask him, therefore, when we look at the state pension compliment the pensions initiatives. requirements can he indicate whether or not a female civil I am now pleased to be able to report to this Court that servant who attains the age of 60 today or over the next work on the Pensions Act has resumed and it will be five to ten years can claim their state pension if they retire followed by the more general review of investment at age 60 as indicated in their original terms and conditions products which itself will be closely linked into the new of employment? taxation strategy legislation programme. It is hoped that our new pensions initiatives will now be available for The President: The Chief Minister. implementation in 2002-2003, and indeed these do form part of the complete rewrite of the taxes legislation, Mr Mr Gelling: I think the answer to that is yes, sir. President. The President: Thè hon. member, Douglas East, Mrs Personal Savings - Cannell. New Schemes and Incentives - Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Again, I am Question by Mrs Cannell most grateful for the response that we have had to the question this morning. Can I ask, though, in terms of the The President: Question 5, again the hon. member for pension legislation which is to be introduced some time Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. next year, has there been any public consultation on the new pension arrangements, particularly in terms of any Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to initiatives which may come forward to help people to save ask the Minister for the Treasury: towards their retirement in the future and, if not, will the minister please consider the same or at least make available Have you considered introducing new savings what the thoughts are behind this particular pension schemes and incentives to encourage and assist Isle of Man legislation prior to it coming forward into the branches? residents to save towards their retirement, as recommended by the Select Committee Report on the Equalisation of the The President: The Treasury minister to reply. Pension Age and Future Pension Policy of the Isle of Man (approved by Tynwald Court in October 1999) and, if not, Mr Corkill: Yes, Mr President, if I can expand a little, will you now give the matter consideration? the retirement benefit scheme legislation which this hon. Court passed some time ago will be implemented in phases. The President: I call on the Minister for the Treasury Effectively, phase 1 is to do with international pensions to reply. and is a financial services opportunity for the Isle of Man to participate internationally, but also as part of that Mr Corkill: Mr President, may I first of all remind the legislation there is a domestic element to it. The domestic hon. member for Douglas East that in the select committee side of it, which is what the hon. member is really pushing report that she has just referred to, written evidence was towards within her question, I understand, also has taxation sought and received from the Treasury and is contained in issues connected to it and therefore the income tax that report as the first item of the appendix 1. In Treasury’s legislation that will need to be modified in order to create submission, which was presented in the form of a letter the incentives for people to save for the longer term, go dated 23rd November 1998, the chief financial officer hand in hand with the Act that is already being passed by reported that the department had undertaken a thorough this Court. In the process of that income tax legislation review of pension provision and of saving towards coming forward there will be full consultation in the normal retirement and were at that time in the course of considering way so that we get feedback from the general public. That several new initiatives or incentives which would feature will automatically be built into the process and I understand what the hon. member means. in the proposed rewrite of the pensions legislation. Hopefully, having satisfied this hon. Court that the subject of the hon. member’s question is most certainly being addressed, I wish to direct hon. members to the answers I Diabetics - Review of Assistance gave to this Court on 17th October last year in response to - Question by Mr Henderson my colleague, Mr Karran’s question headed ‘The Treasury Review of Investment Products, Pension Schemes’ and The President: Question 6, the hon. member for the supplementary questions that accompanied that Douglas North, Mr Henderson. question. The main feature of my detailed response on that Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave occasion was to inform hon. members that there had been to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:

Personal Savings - New Schemes and Incentives - Question by Mrs Cannell Diabetics - Review of Assistance - Question by Mr Henderson TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T615

In relation to the answer delivered on 6th March the , 6th March, her departmental answer 2001 in the House of Keys by your department regarding was that it is prepared to review any aspect of care under an indicated review of assistance for diabetics who through the National Health Service in circumstances where their illness require optical aids, when is this review likely existing arrangements may not be meeting patient need? to take place? Could she acknowledge when that review could take place and would she acknowledge that I am flagging up concerns The President: I call on the Minister for Health and to her with regard to folk on lower incomes? Social Security, the hon. member for Council, Mrs Christian, to reply. The President: Minister.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. The hon. Mrs Christian: Mr President, yes, certainly the written member will be aware from the written answer to his answer said that the department would be prepared to question in the House of Keys that the provision of optical review any aspect of care under the NHS where existing aids under the National Health Service is available to all arrangements may not be meeting patient need. We have patients, including diabetics, either through the primary no evidence to suggest that we are not currently meeting care services or the hospital eye service. The provision of patient need in this particular area. The answer given did optical aids through the hospital service is determined by not imply that we would be undertaking a review. I have, referral to the consultant ophthalmologist and is available however, discussed this question in relation to the demand without charge to the patient. Patients not requiring for vouchers and any difficulties which are being expressed specialist services are managed through the primary care with regard to the purchase of glasses. The indication is service, where a free eyesight test is offered and that most people seek to buy more than the basic pair of prescription issued as appropriate. Under these glasses and they are happy to contribute to that. arrangements patients who qualify are entitled to a voucher, the value of which can be used against the cost of a pair of spectacles. I believe that these arrangements are satisfactory for all patients including all those who require New Hospital - Bovis - Invitations to Tender optical aids due to their illness. - Question by Mr Delaney

The President: The hon. member, Mr Henderson. The President: Item 7 ,1 call on the hon. member for Couneil, Mr Delaney. Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the minister for the positive answer, but would ask if she is Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to aware that the element I am driving at here is, of course, ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: people who are not eligible for the voucher system, and could she acknowledge that people on low incomes will Is Bovis under any obligation to inform you why find the purchase of spectacles very expensive, and would major local contractors have not been invited to tender she also acknowledge that it is unfortunate if somebody is for the fitting out of the new hospital? or has become recently diabetic when their eyesight deteriorates due to no fault of their own really and that The President: The Minister for Health and Social they should have some sort of review of arrangements Security, Mrs Christian, to reply. under those circumstances as indicated in my question answered in the House of Keys, sir? Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Whilst it is not a contractual obligation, agreed procedures for the The President: The minister to reply. project in respect of all works contracts include a requirement for the design and construction team to submit Mrs Christian: Mr President, the hon. member has a proposed list of tenderers to the department and Treasury referred to the difficulties in which those on low incomes for approval. This documentation includes a works contract may find themselves in relation to the purchase of appraisal report which records the dates when expressions spectacles. People on low incomes are by definition exempt of interest were sought through advertisement, the list of from payment - well not from payment, but can receive those companies from whom expressions of interest have the voucher to assist in the purchase of spectacles. What they spend on the spectacles is a matter of determination been received, a brief summary of the reasons why by them. We are aware that many people contribute extra­ companies have not been selected to be placed on the money to buy different kinds of glasses which they prefer, proposed tender list, and finally the list of those companies and to that extent we do not believe that there is any who are considered suitable for inclusion on the proposed significant evidence to show that there is a difficulty in tender list. this regard. The President: The hon. member Mr Delaney. The President: The hon. member Mr Henderson. Mr Delaney: I thank the minister for the reply and I Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Would the am delighted to hear in the reply that she is aware of why hon. minister not acknowledge that in another place, in some local people were not asked to tender. Could she tell

New Hospital - Bovis - Invitations to Tender - Question by Mr Delaney T616 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

us why, then, a major hardware supplier who has already ever undertaken in the Isle of Man and neither would any been consulted by Bovis and has supplied working other company, would the minister not agree with that and drawings actually to the company, has not been placed on therefore it would automatically exclude any local the tender list, if she has that information to hand? company from taking part on the Island? And secondly, is it true or untrue that one of the companies which has now The President: Minister. been asked to tender is a central supply agency based in Southern Ireland, which seems to be getting the bulk of Mrs Christian: Mr President, there are a number of the work from Bovis and the site team? things which are checked by the design and construction team and Bovis in determining who shall go on the tender The President: Minister to reply. list. There is a procedure which is established; initial contact with the tendering companies is established by the Mrs Christian: Mr President, the hon. member is DHSS by the placement of advertisements. Then those talking rubbish (Members: Hear, hear.) when he refers to advertisements request expressions of interest. The hon. this package as being of millions and millions of pounds member is referring to a particular job and these procedures value. In relation to the contract, and the value of that have obviously been followed in respect of that particular contract the work which the companies have done has to package. be explored. Now, it does not do any company any good if Now, following receipt of expressions of interest from we give it a contract which the design and construction a company Bovis issue a set of questionnaires requesting team do not believe they can adequately perform within further information in respect of both commercial and the timescales required and without straining their financial health and safety matters. Typical questions which may resources. There are companies which may have other work be asked include the number of years which the company in relation to their capital which are so busy that one would has been established, details of recently completed projects not wish to add to that burden, and everybody has to make including value and time scales, the number of employees an assessment on that basis. including office and site-based staff and directly and self- The hon. member has referred to companies outside the employed status, turnover both on and off the Isle of Man, Isle of Man. The package structure of this development is planning systems used, quality procedures adopted, details such that it opens up opportunities to local companies to of typical areas of work that would be sub-let, details of be involved. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It does not exclude associated companies, bank account details, accountants’ other people from being involved or from tendering. Now details, current liabilities and current working capital. the objective here is to make it possible for local companies On the basis of the information which is provided, to compete, and there are indeed two local companies on companies are then contacted either by telephone or the accepted tender list. The hon. member is saying that a requested to attend an interview so that any further company which he is quoting is getting the lion’s share of information may be established in relation to their interest the work; nobody knows yet who will get the job. to determine their suitability to tender. Now, the hon. member has referred to a particular Mr Delaney: That is why I have asked the question. company - Mrs Christian: The hon. member is referring to a tender Mr Delaney: Not named. list which has gone out. Tenders are awaited; I am not aware that the results have yet been explored, but the lowest tender Mrs Christian: - which has not been invited to tender. will be examined and we are not obliged to accept the I can only say that on examination of the work of that lowest tender but, generally speaking, we will be looking company against that sort of check list it was determined for best value for this job. Now, it may or many not go to by the design and construction team that it would be an Isle of Man company but two Isle of Man companies inappropriate to invite that company to tender, both on the do have the opportunity to be involved here. The hon. basis of the number of operatives they actually employ, on member has also referred to the fact that the company the basis of the size of jobs which they have undertaken in which he is speaking about today did work in advance of the past, their record of satisfactory work in relation to the the job in discussion with the staff at the department in the department that they have done in the past and so on, and catering department. They were not unique in that; it is on the basis of the information they concluded that it was not unusual for people who are looking to be involved in a inappropriate to put that company on the tender list. job to discuss that with the people who are looking for a tenderer, looking for someone to do the work, and set out The President: Hon. member, Mr Delaney. what it is they may or may not be able to offer. That is part of commercial practice, I would have suggested, in many Mr Delaney: Two supplementaries, Mr President, if I areas. People do give you estimates or designs or plans in may. Bearing in mind that the unnamed company which I the hope that ultimately they might be taken aboard the have alluded to and the minister replied to is one of the tender list, but there is no guarantee associated with that many companies in the Isle of Man who has never tendered and, as I say, this was not the only company who were for a £135 million contract, as this is the largest contract involved in that way. Other people were also.

New Hospital - Bovis - Invitations to Tender - Question by Mr Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T617

Isle of Man Pension Supplement - for obtaining payment for residential care in our homes is Eligibility to Receive — as follows: A person’s entitlement to benefits is worked Question by Mr Delaney out and it is transferred to the home’s account to pay for the care of those residents. If the benefit does not meet the fee - for example, where there is no entitlement to income The President: Question 8. support - then the resident is sent a quarterly account. If a person is entitled to income support, then clearly that Mr Delaney: Mr President, a supplementary, please. element of their pension and supplementary pension and pension supplement which is transferred for payment of The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs their care is topped up by income support, and then the Cannell, question 8. balance which is left is their personal allowance which is given to them to meet their everyday needs in terms of Mr Delaney: I protest, Mr President, no right to ask their cigarettes, their personal clothing or whatever it is supplementaries. that they may wish to purchase. But they do indeed get the pension supplement, but it is necessary that they use that The President: Hon. member, you have had three money to pay for their care. supplementaries and one of them was a double supplementary, which I think - The President: Hon. member for Douglas East. Mr Delaney: On this important subject I think - Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Again I am grateful for the answer I have had this morning, but can The President: - has been adequately answered. Hon. the hon. minister explain to me then why it is that in the member, Mrs Cannell. state-run homes in particular we have residents who are cared for by the state as the minister has described, but Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the also we have residents who have surrendered their homes Minister for Health and Social Security: in the past in order to pay for their care, and can she explain why it is, then, when that situation prevails and money is Is the Manx Pension Supplement paid to those there of a personal nature to pay for their care, that those pensioners who reside in private or state-run residential particular residents do not receive the full Manx pension or nursing care homes and, if not, why not? supplément increase as from 1st April and also only receive the pocket money, exactly the same as someone who is The President: Minister to reply. being cared for by the state receives? Can that be explained, please? Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. To qualify for an Isle of Man pension supplement, amongst other The President: Minister to reply. things a person must be ordinarily resident in the Isle of Man. Now, a person who is resident in a residential or Mrs Christian: Mr President, if I was entirely quite nursing home may satisfy that condition by virtue of the sure about the question I might be able to answer it, but I fact that they are living there so, yes, if they meet all the do find it a little confusing. The position is that anybody other criteria as well, living in a residential or nursing home in a home, whether it be a state home or a private home, is in the Island makes them ordinarily resident, and they are responsible for paying for the care that they receive. If and do receive the pension supplement. they have resources of their own, then clearly they pay the home for the care. If they have limited resources and are The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs entitled to income support, then they receive, on top of Cannell. whatever their resources may be - and that is usually pension and pension supplement - then if the pension and Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I am quite pension supplement do not meet the cost of their care, the surprised at the hon. minister’s reply, grateful though I am, state, the DHSS, tops that up through income support. Now, but can she explain therefore when making enquiries to that applies to low income people, and when they have her good offices, in terms of the new enhanced pension had the cost of their care in a home paid for they are also supplement payable from 1st April this year, why it is that entitled to an allowance which meets their personal needs. those who reside in the state-run residential homes are not That is, in fact, going to increase this year to £22 a week to receive this particular rise and are only receiving a very from April 13 th. modest rise which is termed by her officers as pocket Now, if one is not entitled to income support then clearly money? one relies on ones own resources, so I am not quite sure what the hon. member is saying - whether she is suggesting The President: Minister to reply. that everybody universally should be given a personal allowance...? That is how I think the message comes across Mrs Christian: Mr President, I think the hon. member but I do find it difficult to understand. On the other hand, has perhaps misinterpreted the information she has been the hon. member may be talking about disregards which given. Indeed, the residents do receive that rise. The system were effective in the past but this year the disregards have

Isle of Man Pension Supplement - Eligibility to Receive - Question by Mr Delaney T618 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

been phased out. Members will be aware that the pension whether in the state system or the private system, supplement will be increasing substantially in April, and Eaghtyrane? the amount that residential care residents will be receiving obviously will be going up at that time. The President: Now minister, you may find a question in there! The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Delaney. Mr Delaney: From your colleague. (Mr Karran Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. In fear of interjecting) upsetting the establishment, may I not ask this supplementary question: is it not true the people who are Mrs Christian: Mr President, I thank my hon. colleague in state homes rather than private homes will have the for his comment, which does acknowledge that this Court money given in one hand and taken back with the other on has endorsed considerable increases in the pension the increased supplementary? supplement which assists everybody who qualifies for it whether they are in a residential home or not. But I would Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear. like to also point out that the allowances in relation to the pension supplement and the fees in a residential home this The President: Minister to reply. year have been increased by 6.9 per cent, which is considerably in excess of the inflation level, and to that Mr Delaney: You are still confused, are you? extent there is a significant increase in the personal allowances which residents will be entitled to receive. Mrs Christian: Mr President, the hon. member knows full well how the social security system - or perhaps he The President: Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. does not - Mrs Hannan: While the minister answering the Mr Delaney: Answer the question. question stated what the percentage rise is, could the minister explain exactly what financial support is given in Mrs Christian: The question is that irrespective of a residential home and also a nursing home and what whether or not a person is a resident in a residential home, finance people are able to keep for themselves as pocket the fact of the matter is that the social security structure is money? that whether or not - The President: Minister to reply. Mr Delaney: You take the money back. Mrs Christian: Mr President, I do not have the full Mrs Christian: - you receive income support depends figures and it depends whether it is nursing care or on your income, (Mr Brown: Hear, hear.) the level of your residential care. This year the April 2001 figure is £247.73 income. Now, your income is your pension and your in terms of fees; the allowances are made up of the supplement or it may be from other resources if you have residential allowances, they generally take into account other resources, but it is a well-established principle that attendance allowance which is added to that, and the if you have a top up from the state then your income is personal allowance. Now, in private residential assessed, and if that income is your pension, yes, if your accommodation, if there is a gap between what the state pension goes up then it is likely that your requirement for provides and what the residential home charges, there may income support will go down. be a shortfall for the individual to make up. Now the hon. member, I suspect, is going to draw to my attention the Mr Delaney: She will take it back off them. difficulties which some of the residential homes have expressed they are experiencing in relation to increasing The President: Now, hon. members, I do not think we costs of staffing and so on. I will take this opportunity to should get into a debate on the whole of the social security say to the hon. member that the department is currently system. The question on the question paper has been reviewing the charges of all the residential and nursing answered. Nevertheless, hon. member for Onchan, Mr homes and taking into account submissions that they have Karran. made to the department with regard to their costs. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree that the present situation that state-run residential homes - it does not cover the capital costs as far as those are Public Sector Housing - Single People - concerned, and would the minister not agree that she should Question by Mr Singer be congratulated in this latest initiative, (Mrs Crowe: hear, hear.) as many who shout have done nothing in the past, The President: We turn then to question 9 on the order and would she also agree that the fact of the matter is that paper and I call on the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. the issue is that she has done a lot with the government of the Isle of Man at the present time and obviously what we Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to do need to look at is whether we should be giving an ask the Minister for Local Government and the increase in the spending money in residential homes, Environment:

Public Sector Housing - Single People - Question by Mr Singer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T619

How does your department intend to allow single be pushing the criteria further and further up on this and people under 40 years of age to be accommodated in public on other issues that affect people needing local authority housing when they will not qualify for any housing list? houses, and would he agree that there will be no intimidation or Brownie points to local authorities in order The President: I call on the Minister for Local that they push the criteria further up, which has happened Government and the Environment, hon. member Mr and seems to be still happening even in my constituency, Gilbey, to reply. where the residential qualification has gone up from five years to ten years to go on the list in Onchan? What sort of Mr Gilbey: Mr. President, the hon. member’s question assurances can he give and will his department review the infers that single people under 40 years of age will not fact that it said in this place not so long ago that first-time qualify to be included on any housing list. I am advised buyers’ houses are now recognised at £120,000? What help that at this time two local authorities accept applications have we got for the man that sweeps the streets or digs the from single persons with no age restrictions, with the roads up who is not married to get any sort of decent majority having an age limit of 45 years below which affordable accommodation at the present time? applications are usually accepted only in special circumstances. However, the Department of Local The President: Minister to reply. Government and the Environment is currently in consultation with all local housing authorities in an Mr Gilbey: Well, certainly first-time buyers’ houses initiative to agree a uniform policy for qualifying criteria are being provided through the auspices of schemes of the for acceptance on house waiting lists. Included in the department at a great deal less than £120,000. (A Member: proposed criteria is the exclusion of single persons under Hear, hear.) I think the figure is £85,000 so it is quite wrong 40. At this time I must stress that no decision has been to say that. taken, nor will it be taken until the consultation process is complete and all views have been properly considered. Mr Karran: It is £120,000 for first-time buyers.

The President: Hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. M r Gilbey: Regarding his other point, I think the important thing is that this is a consultation process and I Mr Singer: I thank the hon. minister for his answer. would suggest all those who have particular views on this Does the hon. minister not agree that to disallow single very important matter should write in firstly to the Estates people under 40 on the housing list is discriminatory to and Housing Directorate and then the department, and then those people who, for whatever reason, have chosen to the Council of Ministers will consider what proposals are remain single and is therefore contrary to the Human Rights finally put forward for operation. That is the way to deal Act? And if the hon. minister does not feel qualified to with it. comment on the human rights aspect, perhaps he could ask the learned Attorney-General who might be willing to The President: Hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. comment? Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. Is the hon. The President: Minister to reply. minister aware of a letter from David Gawne of the Department of Local Government to Ramsey Mr Gilbey: I certainly do not personally; this has been Commissioners on February 7th which states, ‘It is our going on for a considerable time. You have to consider wish that the uniform policy be introduced by mutual various aspects and in fact no decision has been made and, agreement at the commencement of the next financial rather than entering into a debate regarding this matter in year’? And if he is, is he aware that Ramsey this hon. Court, I would suggest that the hon. member Commissioners, who, as he says, do permit people under should write in at once to my colleague, the hon. member 40 onto the housing list, believe that some of your proposals for Ayre, Mr Quine, who is in charge of the Estates and are unsuitable, unwieldy and unjust compared to their Housing Directorate with his views which will be taken present points system, and can you confirm categorically most carefully into account, but it is quite premature to that if there is no mutual agreement you do not intend to say what the final recommendation will be on this or the take reprisals against them, for example by withholding various other matters that are being considered. However, housing deficiency grant for the next financial year? I would have thought that all hon. members would agree that it was desirable to get a uniform criterion for the- The President: Minister to reply. allocation of houses. It is surely quite absurd that you could have a road with on one side of it one criterion for the Mr Gilbey: I am certainly not aware of the letter that allocation of one authority’s houses and a different criterion David Gawne is alleged to have written about this. As I for another authority on the other side of the road. said right at the beginning, no decision has been taken, nor will any decision be taken until the consultation process The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. is complete and all views have been properly considered. This has got to go to the Estates and Housing Directorate, Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree then the department, and then undoubtedly, as it is a matter that the problem that this Court has is the fact that you will of policy, to the Council of Ministers. It is quite obvious

Public Sector Housing - Single People - Question by Mr Singer T620 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 that this cannot be completed by the beginning of the next they are also to the problems of all persons whether single financial year. Regarding the general principle, I thought or married, whether married without children or with this hon. Court was in agreement that it was logical to children, who have difficulty in finding housing have a uniform policy for the acceptance of people onto accommodation, and all our policies are aimed at making housing lists. I would have thought that was entirely right more accommodation available until there is no problem and proper and in getting a uniform policy clearly some for anyone. authorities will have to be prepared to change their existing policies, otherwise you will never get a uniform policy. The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Lowey.

The President: Hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell. M r Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I must declare an interest - 1 am single. Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. Would the hon. minister agree that I have been in correspondence with Mr Delaney: Well done, Eddie! him and his department now for some considerable time regarding the plight of single people on low incomes, and Mr Lowey: I am not under 40 though - would the hon. minister also agree that single people on low incomes are now the most vulnerable section of our A Member: You are not under 45! (Laughter) community in relation to housing? If an exclusion is brought in which prevents single people being accepted Mr Lowey: - and not particularly well paid! Could the onto the local authority housing lists coinciding with what minister - and I welcome his sympathy for those single are now rapidly becoming extortionate private sector rents people on low pay who are seeking houses - say how many for let properties, could the hon. minister say what in fact one or two-bedroomed houses the Department of Local his policy is now for the overall housing of single people Government and is planning in their current schemes to on low incomes, and in particular could he comment on allow single people to build, and has any single person been awarded a subsidised first-time buyer’s house by his my suggestion that his department look at the introduction department in recent years? of regulations to enable lodging houses to be reintroduced so that at least some respite is provided for single people The President: Minister to reply. on the Island? Mr Gilbey: They are two separate things. First-time The President: Now, hon. members, I will permit the buyers’ houses - there is a points system for them which minister to reply but let us not get into a housing debate on certainly, and rightly in my view, favours couples and the question which is on the order paper. Minister to reply. favours particularly people with children, because I think we would all agree in all social activities we should think M r Delaney: Hear, hear. above all of the needs of children. Regarding public sector housing our policy is absolutely clear, and that is to provide M r Gilbey: Can I say that we are most sympathetic to retirement units for elderly people, which has a double the hon. member’s proposal regarding altering the law so advantage: it enables them to retire into their own area that properly run lodging houses are available to single and also these elderly people usually are leaving bigger people and we support the general concept. However, it is accommodation which is then available for those with unfortunately more complicated than may appear to be the families. So certainly we have not been proposing public case, because the legislation about lodging houses was sector accommodation for single younger people but for brought in for very good reasons in the past to stop retired people with the specific aim that they should be unhygienic conditions, to ensure that there were adequate able to stay in their own home areas and that they should fire and safety precautions et cetera, and this matter is being hopefully leave bigger living units and make those considered very carefully indeed with a view to doing just available for families. what the hon. member wants, and I very much thank him for his initiative in suggesting these steps. A further longer- The President: A final supplementary from the term solution is to encourage the activities of housing originally questioner, Mr Singer. associations (A Member: Hear, hear.) and I am glad to say that our new director of estates and housing is really Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. Can I ask the experienced in this field and I hope that he will bring about hon. minister, does his department have the powers and the formation of housing associations. does he intend to impose a uniform points system on local Of course, one final point is that there is DHSS provision authorities if there is no mutual agreement after the end of for housing benefits and board and lodging allowances and the consultation period? therefore assistance is available; certainly department officers are talking to officers of the DHSS as to whether The President: Minister to reply. these levels are adequate at the present time. I do also understand that guesthouses registered by the Department Mr Quine: Yes. of Tourism and Leisure accept what you might call ‘boarders’ as well as tourists. But certainly the department Mr Gilbey: Well, I certainly agree with the yes said by is most sympathetic to the problems of single persons as the political member in charge of estates and housing. He

Public Sector Housing - Single People - Question by Mr Singer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T621 is quite right. It surely is a nonsense that we should have Mrs Ann Sturdy and Mr Peter and Mrs Penketh as different criteria all round the Island and unfortunately, compensation for trading losses suffered during the period when you have different levels of anything, if you are going 1st May to 30th September 1988 by virtue of the closure to bring them to the same level some people will have to under section 8, and that was because of advice which was change what they are doing. This is an unavoidable fact given by fire prevention officers to those couples who were but we are trying to do this in a voluntary way through running a hotel at that time. consultation and get consensus, which I very much believe in, but if we cannot get consensus, clearly it is obvious if The President: Minister. we want to have a policy of uniformity, which I believe is right and which I believe this hon. Court thinks is right, Mr Gilbey: Indeed, we are well aware of that case, Mr some people have got to be pressurised in some way into President, and that is one of the cases - there is another bringing about that uniformity. one too - to which I referred in my original answer, and that is one of the cases on which the committee will be deliberating when it next meets in the very near future, Petition for Redress of Grievance of . but I have to say that at the present time the view of the officers of the department is that it is not an appropriate Jean Noreen Thompson - precedent and frankly it is no good discussing it here, we Precedent for Ex-Gratia Payments - could have a debate on the matter, which I hope you will Question by Mr Braidwood not agree; the arguments are very detailed. The committee will meet and will make a recommendation which will The President: We turn to Question 10 and I call upon then come to this hon. court and that is the time to debate the hon. member for Douglas East, Mr Braidwood. this matter, I am sure you would concur.

Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the The President: The hon. member of Council, Mr Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Delaney.

Following consultation with HMAttorney-General Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I have supplied, and the Treasury minister, has your department identified in the last minute, the minister with copies of the fire any precedentfor awarding ex-gratia payments to injured precautions debate which took place in this hon. Court, parties in order to compensate the Thompsons in respect which'I understood, after 26 years, set its own precedents, of the issues raised in the Petition for Redress of Grievance and there is not the responsibility, as in his answer, does of Jean Noreen Thompson? he not agree with me, for the officers to tell this Court what precedent it will set itself; it is for this Court to decide The President: The Minister for Local Government and that. And will the minister give the opportunity for this the Environment to reply. Court to decide, like a grown-up politically responsible government and administration, to decide what is right and Mr Gilbey: Mr President, the sub-committee of the wrong, particularly where we have taken an oath that we learned Attorney-General, the hon. Treasury minister and will do no man or woman any harm, and in this case it is myself have not so far identified any precedent for quite clear, we did harm? awarding ex-gratia payments to injured parties which may be irrelevant in considering compensation for Mr and Mrs Mr Gilbey: Well, I do not accept that we harm them at Thompson. We have made extensive enquiries regarding all but that is a statement; it is a matter of opinion. I said possible precedents; however, having received the that the officers were of the view that there wasn’t sufficient information regarding these, officers of the department do precedent. I also said that the learned Attorney was not feel that a sufficient precedent exists. The learned considering the matter further, that the committee would Attorney has considered the matter further and there will meet, the committee will then make a recommendation be a further meeting of the sub-committee at which a and the committee will then make a report to this hon. decision on the recommendation is to be made. In the court and it will be up to this hon. Court to decide. meantime I should stress that if any hon. members can produce a precedent which may be of assistance in the The President: The hon. member for Douglas East, committee’s consideration of this issue, the members of Mrs Cannell. the committee will be more than pleased to receive this,- but they would like to do so as soon as possible. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Will the hon. minister honour his word when he indicated to a group of The President: The hon. member Mr Braidwood. very concerned members of this hon. Court, along with himself, the Attorney-General and the hon. Minister for Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I might be Treasury, that in considering this particular matter we able to help the hon. minister in his request. Under the would come around the table again once his department Fire Precautions Act 1975, there was an interim report and the learned Attorney had looked at the matter, to further which was received on 13th July 1988, when it was adopted discuss the issue prior to the hon. minister bringing forward that ex-gratia payments be made as a matter of urgency to any recommendation or any new report to this hon. place?

Petition for Redress of Grievance of Jean Noreen Thompson - Precedent for Ex-Gratia Payments - Question by Mr Braidwood T622 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

Will the minister honour that agreement that he indicated bricks, which eventually caused problems in them to members at a meeting? dwellings?

The President: Minister to reply. Mr Gilbey: I can answer that very simply, Mr President, and say yes indeed, that has been and still is being Mr Gilbey: I do not think that I am capable of considered and is one of the two cases to which my remarks committing a committee. The point of it is I may well have referred, that and the Sturdy case. said that I thought it might be a reasonable idea but, unlike some committees where we have seen lately that the The President: A final supplementary to the original chairmen think they can do just what they like, I do not question of Mr Braidwood. take that view; I take the view that it is a matter for the committee as a whole to decide, and certainly I am Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. Although favourably disposed to talking to other hon. members, the hon. member for Douglas West had put one of my before we produce the report, and if that is the will of the questions, sir, would the minister give a categorical committee, we will do that. It seems to me personally quite assurance that he would bring this report by the Council a sensible idea, but it is not for me to decide; it is a matter of Ministers on the subject of an ex-gratia payment in front for the committee as a whole to decide. of this hon. Court as soon as possible, because I am sure that the members of this hon. Court who have read the The President: The hon. member for Douglas West, Petition for Redress of Grievance of Jean Noreen Mr Shimmin. Thompson and the recommendations will be supportive in giving an ex-gratia payment for compensation, for the Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Would the wrongdoing that these people have suffered? minister agree with the written answer in front of us today regarding a question from Mr Rimington that the working Mr Gilbey: I am not going to make any promises principle of the UK parliamentary ombudsman... Would because I am not going to make the kind of wild statements he agree that a person who has suffered injustice through that some people do promising things! I certainly think it maladministration (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) should, as is desirable to proceed with this as fast as possible (Mr far as possible, be put in the position he or she would have Henderson: Hear, hear) and I am sure that the other two been in had that maladministration not occurred? Would members of the committee will agree with that and it is he firstly agree with that principle?’ And secondly, would best to get it finalised. I would just remind hon. members he not agree that by the nature of a precedent it has to start of one thing I think is correct: that the actual petition never somewhere and, instead of talking around the houses for mentioned compensation at all. years on this issue, now is the time to make a precedent? (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear). People have been wronged; make the ex-gratia payment, sir. Peel - Reayrt Aalin - Problems re Houses - Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. Question by Mrs Hannan

The President: Minister. The President: We turn then to Question 11 and I call on the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. Mr Gilbey: Frankly, I am not going to answer about a written question that, as far as I could see, had no relevance Mrs Hannan: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the to this matter at all, and when we talk about Minister for Local Government and the Environment: maladministration, I am not saying in public that there has been maladministration by anyone connected with this (1) Will you carry out an enquiry into ongoing problems government; that is a matter of opinion and that is a matter affecting the houses at Reayrt Aalin, Ramsey Road, to be finally decided by this Court but I am not saying that Peel; and I agree it or disagree it; it is a matter to be proven. (2) has your department purchased any other houses The President: The hon. member of Council, Mr built by the same developers and, if so, have they Delaney. suffered the same problems?

Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. Did the The President: Minister for Local Government and the minister, as a second precedent, look at the case so Environment to reply. admirably brought by the member for South Douglas in a time I was in your position as minister, when we had the Mr Gilbey: Mr President, the officers of the Department difficulty with the first-time buyers’ houses at Anagh Coar, of Local Government and the Environment have aperiodic when he successfully got the then government and this dialogue with those of the Peel Commissioners and in the Court to actually pay compensation to the tune of hundreds past have investigated some problems affecting the houses of thousands of pounds for some of the people who had at Reayrt Aalin. In my understanding, those problems been involved in mistakes made by the supplier of the which were identified were rectified by the original

Peel - Reayrt Aalin - Problems re Houses - Question by Mrs Hannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T623

contractor about 12 months ago and I have no information occur quite a long time after the original construction, but as to ongoing problems to which the hon. member for Peel I really think that, rather than trying to debate this and refers. However, should Peel Commissioners choose to going into details in this hon. Court and take up its time, it seek the opinions of the department’s technical officers, would be far better if the hon. member would be so kind then they would be given every assistance to investigate as to supply the department with the fullest details and we such problems and to produce a report on them. will be more than happy to look into it because clearly, As for the second part of the hon. member’s question, I like her, we do not want any houses that were built for the confirm that the properties were purchased by the public sector to be deficient. Indeed, I would say that we Department of Local Government and the Environment are proud that our standards for public sector houses are in on behalf of Peel Commissioners from Dandara Limited, fact higher than those in the building regulations for the approximately nine years ago. No further properties have private sector. been purchased from Dandara Limited by the department since that date. However, that company has developed The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr into one of the Island’s leading developers of housing and Cannell. commercial properties and I would not preclude the department’s involvement with it in agreements for lease Mr Cannell: Yes, Mr President, a supplementary if I or purchase at some stage in the future. Also, at the present may. Would the hon. minister not agree with me that it time the department are seeking to finalise an agreement would be to the advantage of all if his department was to with that company on a joint venture basis in respect of approach the Treasury for sanction to restore more building land in Andreas owned by the department. inspectors at source, as was the position a few years ago, to alleviate some of the problems during the construction The President: The hon. member for Peel. periods?

Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane Would the Mr Houghton and Mrs Hannan: Hear, hear. minister agree that the ongoing problems affecting these houses should be of concern both to the Department of The President: Minister to reply. Local Government and to the commissioners? It is a visual effect on the outside of the properties, although the damp Mr Gilbey: I am not going to comment on that because problems have been dealt with, as the minister has said, it is really not a question I expected in relation to this. I and would he not agree that it is quite plain to see that would have to lookinto the number of building inspectors, there is a problem with these properties and that the whether they were sufficient, the present and future Department of Local Government, being the purchaser of workloads to be put on them, et cetera. these properties, should be more proactive in ensuring that this problem is investigated? Security - Introduction of Open-Circuit TV The President: The minister to reply. System - Question by Mr Henderson Mr Gilbey: I can say that I spoke on the telephone this very morning to Mr Halliwell, one of our senior architects, The President: We turn to Question 12, the hon. and as a result was advised that the problems are in the member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. past and the developers were very helpful in putting them right. I do not know what the problems are. Perhaps the Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave best thing would be if the hon. member would write to Mr to ask the Minister for Home Affairs: Halliwell with a copy to me, setting out precisely what she thinks is wrong with these houses and what needs Will your department be evaluating the recent putting right and why. experimental open-circuit television security system involving wireless surveillance cameras, with a view to The President: The hon. member for Peel. introduction of such systems where practical?

Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghyrane. Could I also ask The President: I call upon the Minister for Home the minister - he stated in his reply that it took 8 years to Affairs, the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell. sort out a particular problem - why it had taken that long- to sort out the previous problem? Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. My department’s policy in regard to CCTV, whatever system is used, is that The President: Minister to reply. it is supportive of local authorities who wish to use CCTV in their areas provided it is carefully planned and Mr Gilbey: Well, I really do not know if it actually competently managed. It is also essential, in order to ensure took that long. I did say that some problems were identified its success, that it is introduced as part of an overall package 12 months ago but that does not mean that they necessarily of crime reducing measures. My department has, over the lasted for eight years. They could have occurred last four years, provided the Isle of Man Constabulary with subsequently. Unfortunately, with new buildings things can considerable additional resources which have resulted in

Security - Introduction of Open-Circuit TV System - Question by Mr Henderson T624 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

many improvements. These include the introduction of new that this is now in existence and also, is he aware that with technology which has led to further development of the recent CCTV vandalism spate that has been around intelligence-led policing and reductions in the levels of Douglas, this would help solve that too? crime during the last 12 months. It is a statutory responsibility for the Chief Constable to publish a policing The President: Minister. plan each year, publicly stating his priorities and targets. This provides hon. members with the opportunity to Mr Bell: It may well help the situation in Douglas but comment on the priorities and targets of the constabulary. I can only repeat my answer: as and when CCTV becomes As and when CCTV is a priority in policing terms, it will a top priority for the Isle of Man Constabulary, we will be considered sympathetically by my department. consider it. In regard to the use of wireless surveillance cameras, my department would ensure that adequate research had been carried out to decide upon the best system available, if in fact CCTV becomes a policing priority but would Minimum Wage Regulations - only consider systems that had a proven track record. Seminar for Members - Question by Mr Delaney The President: The hon. member Mr Henderson. The President: Question 13, the hon. member of Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I have a few Council, Mr Delaney. supplementaries in my one supplementary, if you can bare with me. Is the hon. minister aware that the system my Mr Delaney: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the question is alluding to has actually received Home Office Minister for Trade and Industry: approval, so it would not need too much scientific evaluation? And would he agree with me that a wireless Will you invite members of Tynwald to a seminar to CCTV system, which does not require underground cabling discuss the regulations establishing the minimum wage, or through building cabling, does not require a control room prior to their introduction? as such, and can be linked into computers, laptop PCs and so on, would be absolutely ideal for the policing policy and priorities that he had just read out, and would he also The President: The Minister for Trade and Industry, agree with me that it would be absolutely ideal for the hon. member for Middle, Mr North. local authorities who are in agreement in trying to progress this idea and certainly Would he agree that it would be Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. Bearing in mind ideal for those awkward areas where cabling cannot be that the Minimum Wage Bill is before the branches, I am fitted to? pleased to confirm that it is my intention that a presentation be held for hon. members in relation to minimum wage The President: The minister to reply. regulations prior to their submission to Tynwald for approval - obviously subject to the Bill completing its Mr Bell: Yes, Mr President, the system that the hon. passages through the branches. member refers to may well have Home Office approval but it is still very new technology and is still in its infancy Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. May I ask a in terms of its introduction into the United Kingdom. It supplementary, please? When you and the Treasury make may well, certainly as far as its publicity is concerned, be up this team which will recommend the final hourly rate, a cheaper, more effective measure which we can introduce will you bear in mind what is taking place within our own than the current form of CCTV which is in operation but, civil service administration, as outlined by the chairman, as I have said in my answer, we will consider all proposals last month - that is, the development of the local economy put to us by the constabulary when they decide what their is playing a major part in fixing salaries? Will you bear priorities are and if CCTV becomes a top priority for the that in mind, sir? Isle of Man Constabulary, whatever form it may take, we will consider it sympathetically and we will certainly bear Mr North: Mr President, I am sure that will be borne in mind the experiences that the introduction of the new in mind. type of CCTV has had in the United Kingdom.

The President: Mr Henderson. Minimum Wage - Basis of DTI rates - Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Question by Mr Delaney minister for some positive comments there towards this new technology, but could he confirm, I am not asking for The President: Question 14, the hon. member for his department to up-end their list of priorities but merely Council, Mr Delaney. wishing him to examine the possibilities of adding this element to aid and assist his department and certainly for Mr Delaney: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the his department to make the relevant local authorities aware Minister for Trade and Industry:

Minimum Wage Regulations - Seminar for Members - Question by Mr Delaney Minimum Wage - Basis of DTI rates - Question by Mr Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T625

In your department’s information letter, dated 5th highway and traffic division should investigate the March 2001, re the Minimum Wage Bill, are the quoted possibility of creating a bus stop on the forecourt of the minimum wage rates of £3.55 per hour in Eire and £4.00 Sea Terminal as part of the ongoing review into the layout per hour in France based on the current exchange rates? of the Sea Terminal forecourt. Subject to my department’s highway and traffic division being able to identify a suitable The President: Again, the Minister for Trade and and safe location, which would not prejudice any of the Industry to reply. existing users of the forecourt, the intention would be to carry out operational trials, routing a bus through the Mr North: Mr President, the letter sent out by the forecourt to the proposed stop during a peak arrival/ Department of Trade and Industry, dated 5th March 2001 departure period, to evaluate the impact that a bus stopping as part of the consultation process in relation to statutory on the forecourt would have on the operations and, in minimum wage rates on the Island, referred to a minimum particular, to determine if such a use would present any wage of, and I quote, ‘Around £3.55 per hour for Eire and danger to the public using the forecourt during such busy around £4.00 per hour for France’ as being the sterling periods. equivalents. I am informed that these conversions were If the trial to be undertaken proves to be both practical supplied by the economic affairs division of the Treasury and safe for the creation of a permanent bus stop on the and I understand that the rates used as a basis for the forecourt, then my department will be requiring the calculation of sterling equivalent values were appropriate passenger transport division of the Department of Tourism at the time the letter was sent and indeed, they remain valid. and Leisure, of which the hon. member Mr Delaney is a Hon. members will appreciate that exchange rates against member, to provide a regular and appropriate level of public sterling fluctuate from day to day, but at the end of last transport service to connect with all ferry movements to week the sterling equivalent of the Irish main adult meet the needs of the travelling public using the sea minimum wage of 4.40 Irish punts per hour was £3.49; terminal, with stops being made for both inbound and the sterling equivalent and of the French minimum wage outbound buses. Thank you, Mr President. of 42.02 French francs per hour was £3.99. Mr Delaney: I thank the minister for his reply to my Mr Delaney: A supplementary, Mr President. I thank humble question. Mr President, to save me asking the the minister for that acknowledgement of my question. minister another question on this next one can I ask, when Could I also remind the minister that these figures that are the minister, his officers and the officers of my minister quoted also are built in each country into a separate group looked at the situation, did they look at the large piece of of regulations governing different types of employment, ground, if it is not possible at the front of the sea terminal, and therefore, in reality, will not bear on the legislation the turning area at the sea side - that is, at the side entrance presently in front of the other branch? Can I also remind to the Sea Terminal, that large area, if that was a possibility? the minister that if this figure had been taken at some other time in the not-too-recent past, it would have actually The President: Minister to reply. equated to £5.00 an hour in France and £4.50 an hour in Ireland? Mr Brown: My understanding, Mr President, is that they considered the options available to them at the Mr North: Yes, Mr President, I take the point! meeting.

Mr Delaney: Could I ask the minister if he would let Sea Terminal, Douglas - us know when the final decisions on this trial period are completed and let us all know and we will all be very Provision of Bus Service - happy? Question by Mr Delaney The President: Mr Brown. The President: Question 15, the hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney. Mr Brown: Yes, Mr President. As the hon. member is a member of the Department of Tourism and Leisure, I am Mr Delaney: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the sure he knows his department will be advised and maybe Minister for Transport: he would like to ask the person he works with.

What decision was reached at the meeting on 5- The President: Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr March 2001 between your officers and the chief officer of Henderson. Isle of Man Transport on the provision of a bus service to the Sea Terminal? Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Could the hon. minister confirm that we are actually talking about The President: I call on the Minister for Transport, the national Sea Terminal of this Island and also the national hon. member for Castletown, Mr Brown, to reply. boat docking place for most tourists to this Island and that the answer to the question is that yes, we must have this Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. At the meeting facility and that we don’t need to have expensive surveys held on 5th March 2001 it was agreed that the department’s and we just get on with it?

Sea Terminal, Douglas - Provision of Bus Service - Question by Mr Delaney T626 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

The President: Minister to reply. The President: The hon. member, Mr Braidwood.

Mr Brown: Mr President, the hon. member is only too Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the well aware, or, if he is not, he should go down to the Sea Chairman of the Civil Service Commission for his answer, Terminal during peak times and he will see that the vast but would it be possible for the chairman to provide the majority of people coming off the boats either drive off hourly rate paid to the temporary staff through the the boat, have their own cars parked somewhere near recruitment agency and, if possible, die actual rate paid to Douglas or they actually utilise the taxi services. To the temporary staff, and could he also provide the average introduce buses into this area, as I have explained monthly amount paid to the agency. previously in this hon. Court - and I am sure the member can recall it - would actually be a problem for us, we The President: I am not sure that the chairman will believe, to introduce double-decker buses into an area have that figure with him but, if he does, he may answer. which has a substantial number of people departing or coming off boats at peak times. We are endeavouring to Mr Waft: I am afraid I do not have those figures, Mr see if we can find a way forward, but our priority is public President. I would think the hourly rate is between the safety. employer and the staff themselves. I would not have any knowledge of that.

The President: Mr Braidwood. Civil Service - Employment of Staff through Recruitment Agency - Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I will try to Question by Mr Braidwood help because I believe there is probably £100 difference each week for a full-time temporary person, 30-odd hours, The President: Question 16, the hon. member for and if it is £100 a week with 55, on average that is £5,500, Douglas East, Mr Braidwood. and would the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission agree with me that it would be more beneficial to the Isle Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave of Man Government if short-term contracts were awarded to ask the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission: to temporary staff than paying fees to a recruitment agency?

How many temporary staff in government The-President: Chairman of the Civil Service departments have been employed through the recruitment Commission to reply. agency with which the Personnel Office has a contract? Mr Waft: I think, Mr President, it is a competitive The President: The Chairman of the Civil Service market out there and a lot of the information is Commission, the hon. member of the Council, Mr Waft, commercially sensitive. However, I will relate the comments by the member to the commission. to reply. The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I should firstly Cannell. clarify for this hon. Court that it is the Civil Service Commission which has entered into the contract with the Mr Cannell: Yes, a supplementary if I may, Mr recruitment agency. The contract was awarded in President. Would the hon. Chairman of the Civil Service December 1999 and relates to temporary administrative Commission give me his opinion as to whether he is or clerical staff for a period not exceeding 12 months, as satisfied that he is entertaining the vast untapped market provided for under the Civil Service Act and agreed by of people who wish to work but are unable to secure this hon. Court in January 1999. The commission’s employment because of the difficulty of the provision for objective in using an agency was to provide a cost-effective their children? In other words, there are many people who alternative to direct recruitment. The final decision to award would wish to work, providing agreement can be reached the contract was only taken after careful consideration and for them but they do not seem to be being picked up because an objective assessment of the cost of staff who have to they are people who have to collect children from school deal with temporary staff, the high cost of advertising, and of course have to comply with school holidays. It is a recruitment and other administrative consequences of the large number of people who are willing to work but are employment of a considerable number of temporary staff. not being encouraged. At that time the number of temporary appointments had been increasing and, prior to the award of the contract, The President: The Chairman of the Civil Service approximately 300 appointments, per annum, were being Commission. made. In the period since December 1999 to the end of January Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I would agree with 2001, an average of 55 temporary staff have worked in those comments. Each family has a different set of government departments each week. These staff will have circumstances and it would be ideal if each circumstance been full-time and part-time and may have been engaged could be catered for, but I think it needs to be looked at in for periods ranging from a few days to a number of months. the future by the whole of government.

Civil Service - Employment of Staff through Recruitment Agency - Question by Mr Braidwood TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T627

Civil Service - evolution of the public service in line with the principles Extra Payment to Chief Executives - of performance management and corporate government. Question by Mr Delaney The commission has also started on a development of a new reward strategy for the whole of the civil service. Last week a series of briefings were held for all staff to inform The President: Question 17.1 call on the hon. member them of the commission’s proposals for a modernised for the Council, Mr Delaney. reward strategy which ought to ensure that the Isle of Man civil service continues to be seen as a career choice. Mr Delaney: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission: The President: Hon. member Mr Delaney.

Has a final figure been agreed for the extra payment Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I do thank the to chief executives? Chairman of the Civil Service Commission for enlightening Tynwald and myself as to what the new salary The President: Again, it is for the Chairman of the Civil scales are for the senior civil servants. Could I ask for a Service Commission, the hon. member for Council, Mr supplementary, Mr President? What is the percentage then Waft to reply. in actual hard cash that this increase will give them? That is the interesting question I think the public will want and Mr Waft: Mr President, I believe the hon. member’s I want. Also, on a second supplementary, where he said he question refers to revised pay arrangements for the chief is going to review the other people in the civil service, the officers’ group of the Isle of Man civil service - foot soldiers, could he tell us when a decision on realignment of their position will be coming into being? Mr Delaney: It does. The President: Chairman of the Civil Service Mr Waft: - which have been agreed following Commission. negotiation with staff representatives within the joint negotiating committee for the civil service. The new Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. On average this arrangements provide for a rate for the job rather than a represents an increase of \ l lh per cent but this is not a pay scale which guarantees year-on-year increases through rise in the true sense of the word; it is a realignment of pay service. It is over 10 years since the civil service salary for this top management group which takes account of how levels were last comprehensively evaluated, and while this the roles of these managers have developed over the past agreement provides for a significant realignment of senior 10 years and they way salaries have changed in other public salary levels, this takes account of the changes that have and private sector organisations. For example, during the taken place in the job market and in the nature of the work period pay for the UK senior civil service has been of the senior civil service in that period. reviewed several times. Indeed the Cabinet Office issued The salaries have been independently invalidated by its most recent consultation document on pay in December external consultants as being comparable with mid-market 2000. This realignment also acknowledges the civil service rates for the job in other public and private sector must be market-competitive if we are to continue to attract organisations with a similar grade of top managers. The consultants used the broad range of organisations of similar good quality people at all levels. size where their chief executives are responsible for With regard to the second question, at the moment we multimillion pound budgets and hundreds - or indeed in are evaluating the situation which was happening last week some instances thousands - of staff. Those organisations with the rest of the civil service and we will be monitoring were drawn from the United Kingdom, central and local the situation and getting the feedback from that to establish government, offshore jurisdictions, the private sector, the best way forward for them, sir. commercial organisations and financial institutions. Also, because the salaries from 1 st August 2000 will be based The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. on three pay bands each with a pay range, the commission is not only recognising the changes that are taking place Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the Chairman of the and the contribution of existing chief officers but is looking Civil Service Commission tell this hon. Court how many ahead as part of its succession planning policy to facilitate chief executives have left to go into the private sector and the continuing recruitment of quality staff and to easing can he also tell us what sort of time period is the going to the movement of staff between public and private sectors. be for the rest of the civil service as far as this issue is As a consequence of the agreement, most of the chief concerned, as obviously if it is buoyant for the top end of officers involved are now being paid at the rate of £63,000 the civil service, it will be buoyant for the bottom end of per annum. Another feature of a new pay arrangement is the civil service as well, and can he give some time period the redefining of the role of chief officers, and this places as far as that is concerned? an emphasis on performance management and on the achievement of a corporate approach to the provision of The President: The second question, I think, you have public services. The Civil Service Commission will be already answered. Chairman of the Civil Service looking to the chief officers to continue to promote the Commission.

Civil Service - Extra Payment to Chief Executives - Question by Mr Delaney T628 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. How many have and particularly where there are needs to be looking at left recently? I cannot give you an exact figure for that but specific areas. I think that was what the man was talking I know some senior civil servants have left to the private about. sector. With regard to the rest of the civil service, we are not talking about the comparison with responsibilities who The President: Hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell. are perhaps lower down the scale, comparing with the responsibilities of chief officers who are responsible for Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. Would the hon. multimillion pound budgets and hundreds or thousands of chairman not agree that, regardless of the number of senior staff, but awards of chief officers need to be compared servants who may have left the Isle of Man civil service with chief executives in other public and private sector. employ over the last few years, it is a fact that a large So we will be reviewing the rest of the civil service in the proportion of very senior and quite critically placed civil due course of time. servants are due to retire over the next two or three years and would he not agree that in the best interest not only of The President: Hon. member for Council, Mr Delaney. government but also the Isle of Man it is absolutely vital that the Isle of Man Civil Service Commission get the very M r Delaney: Sorry, I did not get to ask another best possible people to fill those places if the Isle of Man supplementary, Mr President, but I must do, bearing in is going to perform and deliver the standards of service to mind the answer the chairman gave us, because he says the Isle of Man public which I think the general public are this is not a pay increase for the civil service; it is looking for? realignment. Well, if it is 17’/2 per cent increase to £53,000 - maybe I am a simpleton, I am a member of Tynwald - is Mr Delaney: Hear, hear. that a pay increase? The President: Chairman of the Civil Service The President: Civil Service Chairman to reply. Commission to reply.

Mr Waft: I am sorry, Mr President, I think he might Mr Waft: Thank you, Mr President. I would agree have misheard me - £63,000, the increase for 17'/2 per wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed by the cent. minister and we are going along on that precept.

Mr Delaney: So it is a pay increase? Mr Braidwood: Mr President, just one supplementary question to the Chairman of the Civil Service Commission. Mr Waft: There is a realignment of their structure. On the Towers Perrin report on chief executives’ pay, could he confirm that concern has been expressed by very senior Mr Delaney: It is a pay increase? civil servants that they have not been evaluated under this report? Mr Waft: As members received some years ago, a realightment of their pay. The President: Chairman to reply.

Mr Delaney: It is a pay increase. Mr Waft: I think, Mr President, there was wide consultation with regard to Towers Perrin. They consulted The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. a wide range of people within government including ministers and there was an evaluation of all the results that Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Returning to came their way by way of the different arguments the original question in terms of the final figure, whether backwards and forwards, and there might be arguments of or not it has been agreed for extra payment to chief disagreement and indeed agreement, but that was the executives in particular, the hon. member of Council talked evaluation that the firm came to at the end of the day. in terms of performance management principle. Would it not necessarily follow, therefore, that if a performance management principle is to be adopted with chief Clerk Assistant of Tynwald - executives within government, it should also reflect in their Tynwald Management Committee - pay with performance-related pay, and how can he qualify Report on Tynwald Resolution - the extra payment therefore? Question by Mr Henderson The President: Chairman of Civil Service Commission to reply. The President: Question 18. Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. M r Waft: I think, Mr President, we are not talking about performance-related pay as such; it is depending on the Mr Henderson: Thank you Mr President. I beg leave situation with regard to each and every individual situation to ask the Chairman of the Tynwald Management and the pockets that we have where this will affect them Committee:

Clerk Assistant of Tynwald - Tynwald Management Committee - Report on Tynwald Resolution - Question by Mr Henderson TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T629

(1) Will the Tynwald Management Committee report on Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. that portion of the resolution of Tynwald, approved at its February 2001 sitting, which stated - ‘This The President: Mr Speaker. hon. Court records its dissatisfaction with the manner in which the Tynwald Management The Speaker: I personally am of the opinion that the Committee has carried out the recruitment exercise resolution reflected the dissatisfaction in the committee for this post and expresses regret at any failing to adopt a policy that would have encouraged embarrassment caused to Mrs Cullen as a Professor Bates to withdraw his resignation and remain as consequence and Clerk of Tynwald.

(2) if so, when? The President: Hon. member for Castletown, Mr Brown. The President: I call upon the Chairman of the Tynwald Management Committee, Mr Speaker, to reply. Mr Brown: Yes, Mr President, could I ask the chairman of the committee, in considering this matter, will he raise The Speaker: Mr President, at the Tynwald with the management committee and look at the Management Committee meeting on Friday 9 March, the appropriateness of reporting back to Tynwald on whether third item on the agenda was, I quote, ‘Tynwald Resolution or not it is appropriate for a presiding officer - that is, the dated 22nd February 2001 re Clerk Assistant of Tynwald, presiding officer of the House of Keys, Mr Speaker - to Deputy Clerk of Tynwald’. A copy of that resolution was automatically be the Chairman of the Tynwald attached to the agenda. No decision was made to report to Management Committee and will you consider Tynwald on the matter of the Tynwald resolution. However, recommending a change to the constitution of the in the light of the hon. member’s question, I have arranged committee so that the Speaker is only an ex-officio member, for the Tynwald resolution of 22nd February 2001 to be as is the President of the Council and the chairman is then again placed on the agenda of the next meeting of the elected by Tynwald? management committee on Wednesday 28th March 2001 together with this question, when I will invite the The President: Mr Speaker. committee to take appropriate note of members’ concern and make a report to Tynwald thereon as soon as possible. The Speaker: The constitution of the Tynwald Management Committee has, as the hon. member well The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Delaney. knows, been determined by Tynwald Court and Tynwald Court determined that Tynwald be constituted, that the Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. Whereas this President of Tynwald and the Speaker of the House of Keys is a matter that initiated from the House of Keys, bearing shall be ex officio members of the committee, that there in mind, members, that the detail of a private letter which shall be three members elected by the House of Keys and seems to have gone to members was reported in the Isle of that the Speaker of the House of Keys shall be the chairman. Man paper and that had a restricted list of people it was Until such time as Tynwald Court determines otherwise, going to, will Mr Speaker initiate inquiries into the source the arrangements for the Tynwald Management Committee of where that leak occurred? will remain in force.

The President: Mr Speaker. The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Delaney.

The Speaker: I will consult with the authors of the letter Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. May I ask Mr as to how it managed to become public, as I understand Speaker: bearing in mind a question that was asked by the the letter, which I have not seen and of which I have no minister Mr Brown, hon. member for Castletown, when knowledge, was headed ‘private and confidential’. The first you are investigating your position, will you investigate that I heard and saw of the letter was in last night’s Isle of the position of the Chief Minister on this committee who Man Examiner. has a first duty to government and the situation is, he may find himself in conflict with policies affecting the Clerk The President: Hon. member Mr Braidwood. of Tynwald’s position?

Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I would also- The President: Mr Speaker. like to express concern how this letter got into the public arena, but going back to the question on the order paper, The Speaker: The Chief Minister was elected to the would the Chairman of the Tynwald Management Tynwald Management Committee by the members of the Committee agree with me that the resolution approved at House of Keys in January 1997, sir. this February Tynwald was an indictment of the committee’s incompetence and that the members of The President: Hon. members, the remaining questions Tynwald Management Committee have lost all credibility on your question paper are down for written answer and I and confidence of the majority of the members of this understand have been circulated on all members’ desk this Court? morning.

Clerk Assistant of Tynwald - Tynwald Management Committee - Report on Tynwald Resolution - Question by Mr Henderson T630 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

Maladministation - (2) (a) The registration of government owned land Principle of UK Parliamentary Ombudsman has been possible since the registry was - Question by Mr Rimington launched on 6th November 2000. for Written Answer (2) (b) As was always intended registration of land in private ownership will be introduced on a Question 19 controlled basis in accordance with original intentions. The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington, to ask the Chief Minister: (3) To date two properties, namely Castle Rushen and Peel Castle have been registered. The (1) Do you agree with the working principle of the UK function of the Land Registry is not to initiate parliamentary ombudsman that 'a person who has applications, but to process them when received. suffered injustice through maladministration should, As it was always the intention to commence with as far as possible, be put in the position he or she government owned land, this means that the would have been in had the maladministration not majority of applications will be made by the occurred; ’ and Attomey-General’s Chambers as the legal adviser to government departments. However, the Attomey- (2) does this principle apply to citizens of the Isle of General’s Chambers has been unable to prepare Man? applications due to shortage of staff and pressure of other commitments. Answer Nonetheless, it is understood that the Attomey- The working principle seems to be a sensible one General’s Chambers have very recently submitted for an ombudsman to work to. As we do not have an seven further applications. ombudsman, no such principle has been laid down for the Isle of Man.

However, where it is demonstrated that the Isle of Nicotine Replacement Therapy - Man Government has been guilty of maladministration, UK Initiative - Question by Mr Henderson we would, naturally, try to remedy the situation. for Written Answer

Question 21 Land Registry - Question by Mr Houghton for Written Answer The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: Question 20 Will your department be assessing the UK initiative for The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton, to nicotine replacement therapy for smokers who wish to give ask the Chief Minister: up by supplying NRTproducts on prescription from general practitioners, and for hospital patients? In respect of the Land Registry - Answer (1) Does it enjoy the continuous employment of a legal officer; The United Kingdom Department of Health announced on 14th March 2001 that they will make (2) has it commenced its primary function to register - nicotine replacement products available on prescription as part of the National Health Service. This will involve (a) land in public ownership; and the removal of the prohibition on the prescribing of these (b) land in private ownership; and products, and is subject to the approval of legislation to this effect by Parliament. It is intended that this change (3) if so, how much land has been registered in each • should come into effect from 30th April 2001. category’, or not, why not? Following the public consultation exercise in the Answer United Kingdom, the results of which were also (1) There will be a break in continuity when the published on 14th March, my department will be present legal officer leaves his post, and the Island, considering this matter further. Any change to allow the from the end of April, 2001 until a successor is in prescribing of nicotine replacement therapy as part of post, but this will not prevent applications for the National Health Service on the Island will require registration being presented. to be placed before Tynwald for approval.

Maladministration - Principle of UK Parliamentary Ombudsman - Question by Mr Rimington for Written Answer Land Registry - Question by Mr Houghton for Written Answer Nicotine Replacement Therapy - UK Initiative - Question by Mr Henderson for Written Answer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T631

Equalisation of the Pension Age and Future other from the hon. member for North Douglas, Mr Pension Policy - DHSS Implementation of Henderson, neither of whom identified any particular Report Recommendation - Question by Mrs examples of further disadvantage to already disadvantaged groups caused by equalisation of pension Cannell for Written Answer age at 65 years.

Question 22 No response was received from the hon. member for East Douglas. However if she is able either now or The hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, to at any time in the future to identify any such ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: disadvantaged group I would be pleased to hear from What measures has your department introduced ‘to her. alleviate the effects of the loss of pension income in respect of those women who are already disadvantaged, and who are unable to claim benefits sufficient to make up the Water Authority - Employees’ Earnings - shortfall. ’ as recommended by the Select Committee on Question by Mrs Hannan the Equalisation of the Pension Age and Future Pension for Written Answer Policy of the Isle of Man? (Approved by Tynwald Court in October 1999.) Question 23 Answer The hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, to ask the May I refer the hon. member to my letter to her and Chairman of the Isle of Man Water Authority: other hon. members dated 26th November 1999, and I quote:- How many persons employed by the Water Authority are paid less than £5 per hour gross? ‘The (above) report was received and its recommendations approved at the October 1999 sitting Answer of Tynwald. -There are no people employed by the Water One of its recommendations was that the department Authority who are paid less than £5 per hour gross. introduce measures to alleviate the effects of the loss of pension income in respect of those women who are already disadvantaged, and who are unable to claim benefits sufficient to make up the shortfall. Queen’s Pier, Ramsey - Statement by the Minister for Transport Within the body of the report “already disadvantaged” is clarified as being through disability, The President: We turn then, hon. members, to item 3 caring responsibilities or low income. on the main order paper I call on the hon. Minister for Transport, Mr Brown. During debate on the report I did express doubt that such disadvantaged women would be further Mr Brown: Mr President, at the November 2000 sitting disadvantaged through equalisation of the pension age of Tynwald it was resolved that the Council of Ministers at 65. This is because there is in place a system of pre­ report on a suitable scheme for the Queen’s Pier, Ramsey pension age benefits that support them, and that on by no later than the March 2001 sitting. As I indicated attainment of pension age, whether that be at age 60 or during the debate in November, I believe, due to the tight 65, one structure of benefits is simply replaced by another. timescale proposed, that it might not be possible to report back to Tynwald by the March sitting. Whilst the The department has since given further department since the November sitting has undertaken a consideration to this issue, and remains of the view that considerable amount of work, including consultation with disadvantage caused by disability, caring responsibilities interested parties, it has not been possible to report back or low income is not aggravated by equalisation of. to the Council of Ministers within the required timescale pension age at 65. to enable the report to be presented to Tynwald Court at the March sitting. I can advise that my department has However, before reaching a final conclusion, the very recently finalised its report on the future of the Queen’s department would be pleased to learn whether you have Pier and it will be forwarded to the Council of Ministers any particular examples that might indicate contrary to shortly for their consideration to enable the Council to the department’s belief.’ report to Tynwald, which I anticipate will be at the April sitting. Thank you, Mr President. The department received only two responses to that letter, one from the hon. member for Glenfaba and the The President: Hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer.

Equalisation of the Pension Age and Future Pension Policy - DHSS Implementation of Report Recommendation - Question by Mrs Cannell for Written Answer Water Authority - Employees’ Earnings - Question by Mrs Hannan for Written Answer Queen’s Pier, Ramsey - Statement by the Minister for Transport T632 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. I understand that understand, and advise his constituents or anybody else I cannot comment but there are certain questions that I interested, how the timescales work in terms of trying to would like to askin relation to the minister’s brief statement get a report to Tynwald. and his failure to comply with the Tynwald resolution so The hon. member said about delaying tactics. Why on that the report could come back to this sitting. earth would I want to delay anything? There is no logic to Is the hon. minister not aware that his excuses do seem me to delay anything. To be quite honest, I wonder why I extremely feeble for not complying with the resolution of initiated that we should even review the present stance of the hon. member for Douglas East, Mr Braidwood, and Tynwald, which had been adopted by Tynwald, which was adopted by this hon. Court, which felt that four months to mothball the thing and leave it there. Why I did it was was adequate and that this delaying tactic was anticipated because I believe we needed to find a proper solution to and discussed quite opening and it was later speculated try and find a future for the Queen’s Pier. upon in the press about the unwillingness of the department Now then, just so we are clear on timescales - because to come to make any decision at all? Is it also not a fact the hint is that my department has done nothing, it has sat that the draft Queen’s Pier report, referred to as being on around doing nothing, can I say that the timescale for each his desk last October, already went as far as page 27 and of the March Tynwald is as follows: we would have had to that after the Tynwald resolution in November the minimal have our submission of the report by 7 February 2001 to amount of work necessary to arrive at the specific Treasury. Do not forget that the motion was passed on recommendation in this document which went to Tynwald on 22nd November 2000 - of course the hon. conultation with the Friends of the Pier could have been member opposed the amendment - and therefore 7th accomplished in a month, never mind four months, and February was the later date we would have to have had therefore could the minister explain why the document our report to Treasury. 1st March would have been the went out so late to consultation that the final date for receipt latest date we would have had to have it to the Council of of comments was actually arranged to be two days after Ministers for their consideration and determination to the date for receipt for items for this agenda and that it had enable to motion to go on the Tynwald agenda for March not even gone to the Council of Ministers? Can the hon. Tynwald, which have to be with the Clerk of Tynwald no minister therefore realise the concern of the friends and later than 5th March 2001. That was to get the report here supporters of the pier who feel that his department’s overall to this sitting. handling of the November Tynwald resolution was cynical Mr President, for many, many generations nobody has and an obvious further delaying tactic to reduce the found a proper use for the future of the Queen’s Pier. My possibility of this hon. Court before the end of the present department has taken a concerted effort in an endeavour session making a decision which might, in fact, instruct to see if we can find a way to resolve what is a quite the Department of Transport to stop prevaricating and get substantial problem and a matter that needs resolving. something done? Is the hon. minister aware of the intense Whether or not the Queen’s Pier stays with my department media interest now being shown in the pier as evidenced or goes elsewhere, is irrelevant. What matters is what the in articles of the Financial Times, Manx Tails and the future is for the Queen’s Pier and, with the greatest will, excellent item on BBC1, and will he commit his department my department - myself included - have given a to co-operate fully in the proposed 30-minute documentary considerable amount of time to this issue and I do take on the Queen’s Pier this summer? In view of the continuing exception to some of the comments from the hon. member delays, will the hon. minister now concede that a humble for Ramsey who knows better. petition presented by the Friends of the Queen’s Pier at last year’s Tynwald ceremony which complained of The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran. unreasonable delay in making any decision over the refurbishment of the Queen’s Pier was both accurate and Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would just like it if in any fully warranted? And finally, does the minister expect report it is made quite clear whether this report will be anyone to visualise any scenario other than his department made on the issue that this is a national issue and not just wishing to shift what is his department’s responsibility to a Ramsey issue as far as this item is concerned, as it seems somewhere else? that this is a problem that seems to be addressing at the present time, that people seem to think it is just a Ramsey The President: Minister to reply. issue and, in the report, when it talks about it having to have a use, then obviously we do not expect Laxey Wheel Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I am very touched to have a use or any of the other things to have a use, so indeed by the hon. member for Ramsey’s comments, the can the minsiter make sure that any report in the future is member who was given the responsibility by me as a not just reduced to some sort of election gimmick. This chairman of a working party, when he was on my issue is far too important. The Ramsey Pier needs to be department, to try and find an answer to this matter, which saved for the nation, not just for Ramsey. he could not. The President: Minister to reply. Mr Singer: I did, I did find it. Mr Brown: Mr President, I thank the hon. member for Mr Brown: Can I say to the hon. member again, if he Onchan for his comments. Certainly it is not an election knew the timescale, he understands, or should be able to gimmick as far as I am concerned. I genuinely take my

Queen’s Pier, Ramsey - Statement by the Minister for Transport TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T633

responsibilities on board and I am aware, and was right of Man is effectively ringed by potential sources of from the day I was appointed Minister for Transport, that infection. we had a pier that was closed, falling to pieces and had no To date, the United Kingdom’s Ministry for Agriculture, purpose and nobody was interpreting a future for it. Fisheries and Food has said that the majority of cases have been linked to movements of infected animals, which took The President: The hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell. place before restrictions on livestock movements were implemented on 23rd February, apart from a small number Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President, just two small points. which had been attributed to localised airborne spread. It Firstly, could the minister clarify what he now foresees as must be emphasised that the major risk is from infected his timetable for bringing back the report both to the animals to uninfected animals, so the ban on livestock Council of Ministers and to Tynwald? I think he mentioned movements will be a major contributor to eventually shortly, but could he actually just clarify that more bringing this outbreak under control. The second most specifically by giving possible dates so we know now what likely source of infection is transfer by people in moving timescale we can work within? And bearing in mind his from infected areas to uninfected areas, and this is why own sterling efforts many years ago as Chairman of we have instituted disinfecting controls at the ports of entry Government Property Trustees when he fought hard to save into the Isle of Man. the Laxey Wheel and maintain his integrity, would the hon. Turning to the Isle of Man’s situation, the department’s minister not agree with me that any proposals which come approach to this most unfortunate situation has been forward within this report for the future of the Queen’s threefold: firstly, to eradicate known risks, and I refer to Pier should equally recognise the integrity of the pier and the 34 imported pigs and over 1,000 in-contact pigs which that any proposals which are put forward should be were slaughtered at a farm in Ballamodha within two days structured in such a way that the entire pier is maintained of the outbreak occurring. I would like to praise the efforts and we do not find ourselves presented with an option of the staff of my department and the co-operation they which, in effect, is to dramatically reduce the length and received from other government departments in ensuring therefore the integrity of what is a vitally important and this exercise was carried out rapidly and efficiently and in much loved part of Ramsey and the north’s heritage. a humane manner. (Two Members: Hear, hear.) The department has concerns about the ferral goat population The President: Minister to reply. which roam the cliff areas in the north-east of the Island, as they are seen as a potentially susceptible source of Mr Brown: Mr President, the latest date by which the infection which is not under management or control and Council of Ministers will have to make a decision on the which ranges freely over an extensive piece of coastline report that my department will be putting to the Council and associated farmland. However, my department has not of Ministers so that it can get to the April Tynwald means received the concurrence of the Council of Ministers to that the Council of Ministers will have to make a decision take steps to reduce this risk by 5 th April. As far as what is in the report, the hon. member My department has the situation as regards potential and the hon. members of this House will get, in due course, outbreaks under constant review and will take whatever what is suggested in our report. action falls within its powers as necessary to endeavour to ensure the Island remains free of this terrible disease. Steps have been taken to prevent, as far as possible, the import Foot-and-Mouth Disease - of the disease. Movement of livestock has been suspended from day one between the Isle of Man and the United Statement by the Minister for Agriculture, Kingdom and persons and vehicles travelling from the UK Fisheries and Forestry are subject to inspection and disinfection procedures. These controls are continuously being refined, amended and The President: We turn then to item 4 on the order tightened. The response from the travelling public has paper, a statement by the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries generally been extremely good and much understanding and Forestry. has been shown, particularly by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and the various airlines, who have been Mr Downie: Mr President, hon. members cannot fail most co-operative. to be aware of the catastrophic situation facing the UK In the light of the situation in the United Kingdom, we agricultural industry in the wake of the current ongoing anticipate that these controls will have to remain in place foot and mouth epidemic which has spread through so. for at least the medium term and possibly longer. Again, I much of the United Kingdom. I hope also that members would wish to register my appreciate of the efforts of my appreciate what a catastrophe it would be for the Manx own department’s staff and those of other departments who industry if this disease was to break out here. (Members: have assisted and are assisting in conducting this exercise. Hear, hear.) Plans are now in place to allow for an immediate As of this morning, there have been 348 confirmed cases response should the Island be unfortunate enough to have in the United Kingdom spread over much of the United an outbreak of foot and mouth disease. This has Kingdom, with centres in Dumfries and Galloway, implications for personnel and machinery. I am pleased to Cumbria, Lancashire, Cheshire and other areas. There has say that, due to fiill co-operation between my department also been a limited outbreak in Northern Ireland. The Isle and the other government departments, provision has been

Foot-and-Mouth Disease - Statement by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry T634 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 made for four rapid response teams to be available to deal Mr Duggan: Thank you, Mr President. I was going to with any outbreak which might occur. In saying this, I very mention the TT, but the minister has covered that. much hope that they will never be used. If any outbreak is Regarding the goats, there has been a move at Maughold not eliminated immediately, the potential for spread for years, because there are some property-owners down throughout the Island’s animal population is extremely there, to get rid of these goats. I personally think it is the high. Once control of the situation is lost, then the forecast last resort to cull those goats, because after all what more is that the animal population is lost. risk do they pose than the mountain sheep, which are not These responses have mainly been directed by my monitored all that well? I think I would like an assurance department, but there is also a Council of Ministers from the minister that he will not got willy-nilly to get the committee made up of the ministers of the relevant rid off the goats. departments and senior officers which meets regularly to review the situation and discuss potential measures which Mr Delaney: Leave the old goats alone! might be taken. There is also a committee of senior officers which meets regularly to ensure that efficient liaison is Mr Downie: Just to deal with the question, the carried out between the government departments involved. department has concern about the goats. I can tell the hon. I cannot emphasise too highly the spirit of co-operation member that the issue was raised in the Council of which has been shown across government in preparing to Ministers. These are the only animals on this Island at the deal with this tragic situation. As I have said, Mr President, moment which are not being closely monitored. They are I feel we are in for a long haul, and even when the United feral animals, they have no owners and therefore no-one Kingdom appears to have gained control of the outbreaks appears to accept any responsibility for them. The there, we will not be able to relax for at least a subsequent department has tried over the last few weeks to monitor four-week period, during which no further outbreaks occur them on a regular basis. Some of these animals are ill, there. they are lame, and anyone who understands and knows The other major implications is for events such as the goats, they are extremely agile, they cannot be held in by TT and other sporting festivals. From the agricultural fences or stone walls and in my opinion and in the opinion industry’s point of view, it has to be said that it would be of the senior veterinary officer they are the Achilles’ heel better if such events did not take place in the light of current in the whole situation, and we could well have an outbreak circumstances. However, a wider view has prevailed within on the north-east part of the Island and the goats could the Council of Ministers and it is the intention to make a provide a very superb vehicle for transmitting an outbreak decision in due course should the TT be allowed to proceed. all down that whole coast. I have to say I have grave reservations about any decision, Now, the matter was brought to the attention of the even though it is difficult to quantify the exact level of risk, to allow thousands of people to travel through infected Council of Ministers and the decision was made that the areas in the United Kingdom to the Isle of Man. It is not only way we could take the goats out would be if there one which would inspire my confidence or that of the rural was a suspected outbreak in that particular area or if there community. was a full-blown outbreak in the Isle of Man. So the goats I should also say that there is likely to be a reaction in do have some security at the moment, but I would say to the agricultural industry to such a move. They would, at hon. members that when this situation has been dealt with the very least, refuse to allow spectators onto agricultural and hopefully passes us by, there is a welfare problem with land, which is effectively private land, to view the ensuing these goats and, like any other form of stock, they do have races. In any event, some form of tight control would have to be managed and we may have to go in and some stage to be operated and I am not totally convinced that such and remove some of the older ones, the ones which are controls would be effective. The effects of the foot-and- infirm, and I am sad to say that some local people have mouth outbreak in the United Kingdom are self-evidently actually been taking some pot shots at them and we have being experienced across a much wider field than just the identified goats that are a welfare problem at this particular farmers immediately involved. There has already been time. severe effects on associated industries, such as meat So it is not an easy decision to make, but I can assure processing and animal haulage. In addition, major concerns the hon. member that we would not be eradicating the goats have been expressed in the UK as regards the medium and unless we were in a desperate situation with a suspected long-term effect on the tourist industry. or a full-blown outbreak of foot-and-mouth on the Island. In conclusion, Mr President, I am satisfied that the department and government have done what they can do, The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs within reason, to take all steps to prevent the outbreak of Cannell. the disease in the Island and the extent that all that can be done, has been done. The emphasis now is on maintaining Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. May I the levels of precautions already being taken and ensuring congratulate the hon. minister for the way in which he is that we do not drop our guard. We have been fortunate so dealing with this very, very difficult situation (Members: far and there can be no guarantee we will continue to be Hear, hear.) at the moment and for the vigour with which so. Thank you, Mr President. he has pursued the position of the Island remaining free of this dreadful disease. But can I ask him - he mentioned in The President: Hon. member Douglas South, Mr his statement about the fact that he has the full co-operation Duggan. of all government departments and the Council of Ministers

Foot-and-Mouth Disease - Statement by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T635

in looking at the situation if we get the disease; at the The President: Minister to reply. moment, as the hon. minister has said, we are free of the disease, and long shall that prevail but, can I ask him, in Mr Downie: I am pleased to advise the hon. member preventing the import of this disease, is he satisfied with that, virtually on a daily basis, the government departments the present support of the Department of Transport in terms responsible are having dialogue with each other. of monitoring and ensuring the sufficient inspection of As far as the TT goes and other sporting events go, all vehicles coming into the Island, both those that are being the information will be fed into the liaison committee and driven in and those that might be on trailers such as in fairness, the Chief Minister, with the benefit of all the motorbikes? Is he satisfied with that or would he like to latest advice available, will, I think, be the best and most see a little bit more in terms of manpower and inspection appropriate person to make that decision. Now, I am one processes at the ports of entry? of the most ardent TT supporters and, as far as I am concerned, if there is a remote chance of running the TT I The President: Minister to reply. am sure you will get a favourable response from the department, but we have to keep our eye on the evolving Mr Downie: Yes, I am very pleased to report that one situation in the UK. If the disease comes under control of the first departments that came to our department there, the whole situation may change quite quickly. I am offering valuable support and assistance was indeed the ever hopeful and I would ally myself to some of the remarks Department of Transport. They very quickly had the that have been made by the tourism minister that we are situation under control at the airport. The airport director still very much open for business and I sincerely hope in initiated his disinfection plan and has refined that the not-too-distant future we will start to see an end to this somewhat. They have also provided facilities for the situation and perhaps we can be a bit more bullish or veterinary officers at the airport. The same applies with hopeful about the long-term future of some of the bigger the port of Douglas: nothing but co-operation there, and events that we are still hoping to ran. in fact the engineering department in the Department of Transport have made a lot of trays; they are the people The President: Hon. member for Ayre. who put the disinfection mats down and they have also provided for a very good regime as far as infection control Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. Again, in common goes. I should also add that the Department of Transport with the others, I recognise the excellent work being done has over 70 men on a permanent readiness, so that if an and I commend the minister for that. I was just going to unfortunate outbreak does befall us they are ready to drop ask him one question, and that is, in relation to the co­ whatever work they are carrying out at the moment to go ordination committee, the ministerial committee - 1 think to their machinery and plant and provide the back-up teams the Chief Minister is chairing it - can the minister assure for the various vets. They have all been fully briefed. There me that issues of compensation are matters that are being is a really good call-out system in operation and I can assure discussed before that committee, because I am not thinking the hon. member that the Department of Transport, in of issues of hardship here; I am thinking of issues of actual particular, are doing more than their bit to try and keep hard loss. Some of these are not people of substance, some this dreadful disease out of the Island. of these are small individuals who have literally been put out of work already. I would like to be assured that these The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. situations are being recognised and that we are trying to provide some sort of an answer to those. I take an example, Mr Cannell: Yes, Mr President, I would like to join of course: the Wildlife Park have closed their doors; as a those who have given congratulations to the department consequence of that, some private individuals, people with in their handling of this so far, but I would respectfully a private business inside the Wildlife Park are no longer like to remind hon. members of the massive implications able to conduct their business. I would like to think that which there are in this regard. these cases are being recognised and we are trying to find some sort of a solution to them. The President: Hon. members, we are not debating. Questions if you can, please. The President: Minister to reply.

Mr Cannell: May I then ask the hon. agriculture Mr Downie: Yes, in fairness, Mr President, I can only minister about his consideration of whether the possibilities speak on behalf of the agricultural industry. You will be of an unfortunate arrival of the disease would make the aware that there is a compensation package available which approach of the department in its recommendations to the equates to the value of the animals at the time of slaughter. Council of Ministers regarding the two major sports As far as compensation for loss of profits and other festivals we are about to promote, the Isle of Man TT races elements, I am really not in a position to answer because, and the Island Games, would actually differ in the advice as I say, as far as I am concerned, my involvement has given to the Council of Ministers for the situation as it is been mostly with the agricultural issues and I have tended at the moment and the advice given were the Island to be not to get involved in the responsibilities which are shared stricken by this disease? by other ministers.

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British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body - There are two clerks to the body, one from Dublin and Statement by the Speaker one from Westminster, who jointly exercise the clerk’s duties, including advice to the chairman and members of The President: We turn then to item 5 on the order the body on rules and procedures, liaison and other paper, a statement from Mr Speaker. continuing aspects of the working of the body between sessions. The Speaker: Mr President, last September the At the plenary conference in Galway, which I attended President of Tynwald received an invitation for the Isle of it was recommended that the devolved governments of the Man to send an observer to the British-Irish Inter­ United Kingdom and the Crown dependencies of the Isle parliamentary Body plenary conference being held in of Man, Jersey and Guernsey, be invited to join the Galway, the Republic of Ireland, in October 2000. The parliamentary body. This recommendation was formally President of Tynwald asked me if I would attend. The ratified at the plenary conference held at Killarney, British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body was formally Republic of Ireland, on 26th and 27th February 2001, which established in 1990 as a link between the two parliaments. I attended as an observer. The membership of the Its origins lie in the joint studies report initiated by the parliamentary body will be increased by 18 members as then Taoiseach, Mr Charles Haughey, and the then Prime follows: five members and four associate members of the Minister, Mrs Margaret Thatcher, at their summit meeting National Assembly for Wales; five members and four in 1980. associate members of the Northern Ireland Assembly; five The report, agreed in 1981, provided for a parliamentary members and four associate members of the Scottish tier to be established when the two parliaments so wished. Parliament; one member and one associate member of the This idea was taken further in 1983 on the initiative of Mr High Court of Tynwald; one member and one associate Peter Temple-Morris MP, the chairman of the British Group member of the States of Jersey; and one member and one of the Inter-Parliamentary Union and Mr James Tunney associate member of the States of Guernsey. TD, the then Leas-Cheann Chomhairle of Dail Eireann. Hon. members, I believe the Isle of Man is privileged In February 1990 the first plenary session of the body to have been invited to join the parliamentary body, which was held in London and the formal constitution and rules is the parliamentary tier to the British-Irish Council and were agreed. The rules provide for two plenary sessions Council of the Isles. In my address to the parliamentary each year held alternatively in the two jurisdictions and body I stated, ‘Let me first say that the Isle of Man for four committees to be established which meet as appreciates very much being invited to send a required during the intervening months. Plenary sessions parliamentary observer to this meeting of the British-Irish have been held in London, Dublin, Edinburgh, Cork, Inter-Parliamentary Body. It ill behoves me to comment Cardiff, Adare, (County Limerick), Bath, Ballyconnell on the deliberations of the steering committee, but I would (County Cavan), York, Dromoland Castle (County Clare), like to put the case for the Isle of Man. As members, you Cambridge and Galway. Committees have met in Britain, will know the Isle of Man is in the centre of the Irish Sea, both parts of Ireland and in Brussels. equidistant from England and the island of Ireland, and The structure and operations of the body consist of 25 the Manx Parliament is wholly self-governing. There is Irish and 25 British parliamentarians from upper and lower no subsidy from Westminster or from Europe. It relies houses of both parliaments. Members serve for the duration entirely upon its own good government and good of the parliament to which they are elected. Up to 20 management of the economy. By being equidistant, there associate members may be nominated by each side who are strong cultural, social, commercial and family links may attend plenary sessions in place of members who with both communities in Ireland, and indeed a substantial cannot be present. The body has drawn up rules for the proportion of the population of the Isle of Man is either conduct of its business, which covers matters of Irish or of Irish descent. It follows that the Isle of Man is membership and participation, election and powers of seen by many Irish people to be wholly neutral in the chairmen, the constitution, quorum and duties of the problems of their island. The Isle of Man would be steering committee, motions and amendments, rules of honoured if it were to be invited to join this Inter­ debate and so on. parliamentary body and to be able to make some A steering committee of six members is made up of the contribution. I hope that the application, if I could term it two co-chairman, currently Mr Michael O’Kennedy TD that, will receive the favourable response of the steering and David Winnick MP and two members from each side. committee and the whole body.’ The committees are made up of six members from each As I have said, hon. members, the Isle of Man has now side and deal with the following subjects: committee A, been invited to join this parliamentary body and my strong political and security; committee B, European and recommendation is that Tynwald accepts this invitation to international affairs; committee C, economic and social join the British-Irish inter-parliamentary Body and I will affairs; committee D, environmental and social committee. be placing a motion at the April Tynwald as follows: Committee reports are presented to the plenary session of ‘Tynwald is pleased to accept die invitation to become a the body, which usually comments on them in the form of member of the British-Irish Liter-Parliamentary Body and a resolution. They are sent to both governments, which elects one member and one associate member to serve for make formal replies to the committees’ recommendations. the remainder of this Parliament.’ That means our These replies are also published and considered by the parliament here in the Isle of Man. Thank you, Mr plenary session. President.

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The President: Hon. member for Ayre. regard to other Crown dependency Islands is very much in the minds of the Financial Supervision Commission and Mr Quine: Yes, if I could ask Mr Speaker, sir, would of the Treasury. Rather than read out all of the figures, I he agree with me that there has to be a point in dme where can circulate these figures, Mr President, but can I say that we become more discerning about membership of bodies in all cases they do remain competitive, sir. that take members of this hon. Court around the world, and that there is a need - and I am sure April will provide The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed a forum for us to debate that need - to look more closely at at 6 on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; our membership of these bodies, the numbers of people that are travelling, the cost to the taxpayer and above all, against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. what we are achieving from this? The President: Mr Speaker. Investment Business (Fees) Regulations 2001 - Approved The Speaker: Mr President, as the Isle of Man moves forward in its international image, which we are promoting The President: Item 7 sir. all over the world at this present time, whether it be in the global yacht or by Treasury expeditions to various parts of the world to encourage international business, I believe Mr Corkill: Mr President I beg to move: that in the context of the Isle of Man, and in particular being invited and then accepted already to be a member of That the Investment Business (Fees) Regulations the British-Irish Council or Council of the Isles - that is 2001 [SD 57/01 ] be approved. the executive arm of Government - to have the opportunity to be a member of a parliamentary tier that is party to the Mr President, the Investment Business Acts 1991 to Council of the Isles will be appropriate, sir. 1993 empower the Financial Supervision Commission to make these regulations in order to prescribe applications and periodical fees payable by applicants for or the holders Banking (Fees) Regulations 2001 of investment business licences. The information has been - Approved circulated, Mr President, and I beg to move the Investment Business (Fees) Regulations 2001. The President: I call on the Treasury minister to move item 6. Mr Corkill. The President: Mr Braidwood.

A Member: Wake up! (Laughterj Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President and reserve my remarks. Mr Corkill: Sorry, Mr President, I was not paying attention. (Laughter) Mr President, I beg to move: The President: The motion, hon. members, is that printed at 7. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. That the Banking (Fees) Regulations 2001 [SD No The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 56/01 ] be approved.

Mr President, the Banking Act 1998 empowers the Financial Supervision Commission, after consulting the Collective Investment Scheme (Fees) Treasury, to make regulations in order to prescribe the fees Regulations 2001 - Approved which shall be paid upon application for or grant variation or renewal of a banking licence. I beg to move, sir, that the The President: Item 8, sir. Banking (Fees) Regulations 2001 be approved. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I simply beg to move: Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President. That the Collective Investment Scheme (Fees) The President: Hon. member Mr Crowe. Regulations 2001 [SD No 58/01 ] be approved. Mr Crowe: Mr President, can I just ask the Treasury The President: Mr Braidwood. minister if he might like to circulate what our competitors charge for services to banking? I am thinking here of the Channel Islands and the Republic of Ireland. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks. The President: Treasury minister to reply. The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed Mr Corkill: Certainly when these fees are being at 8 on the order paper. Those in favour, please say aye; determined, Mr President, our competitive position with against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Banking (Fees) Regulations 2001 - Approved Investment Business (Fees) Regulations 2001 - Approved Collective Investment Scheme (Fees) Regulations 2001 - Approved T638 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

Income Tax Exemption (Managed Banks) Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: (Fees) Order 2001 - Approved That the Nursing and Residential Homes The President: Item 9, Treasury minister. (Amendment) (Fees) Regulations 2001 [SD No 29/01 ] be approved. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: The DHSS is responsible under the Nursing and That the Income Tax Exemption (Managed Residential Homes Act 1988 for the registration and Banks)(Fees) Order 2001 [SD No 59/01 ] be approved. inspection of nursing and residential homes. The 1988 Act has enabled the department to provide a service whereby Mr President, the Income Tax Acts of 1970 to 1991 the care of the elderly in private and voluntary residential empower the FSC to make these orders so that fees can be and nursing homes can be monitored. There are some 23 prescribed which shall be paid upon an application for and residential and 10 nursing homes providing beds for about upon the issue and renewal of an exemption under section 850 people. The fee structure consists of a registration fee, 20A of the Income Tax Act 1970. Once again the a change of ownership fee, a change of manager fee which information is in members hands, Mr President. I beg to are all one-off payments plus a bed fee which is paid move. annually according to the number of beds that the home is registered for. Normally the regulations would apply a The President: Mr Braidwood. percentage increase to all the fees, but this year the proposed increase of 3 per cent is only applicable to the Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my annual bed fee. This limited increase is because homes are remarks. facing financial pressure due to the economic climate and the rising staff costs. I beg to move, Mr President. The President: Hon. member Mr Karran. The President: The hon. member for Onchan. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can the Treasury minister inform this House, is there any different fee structures Mr Cannell: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve between a branch, or the head office as far as being my remarks. registered on the Island? I would just be interested to know whether there is a different fee structure. The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed at 10 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say The President: Treasury minister to reply. aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Mr Corkill: The hon. member catches me off guard with that because there are so many different fees with European Communities (Control of Exports regard to managed banks, building societies, investment of Dual-Use Items and Technology) business, investment businesses authorised collective (Application) (Amendment) Order 2001 - investment schemes, but the issue is that these are licences issued by the Isle of Man authorities and are relevant to Approved what businesses appertains on the Island, so the answer is that there are differences, but it depends where they are The President: We will turn then to item 11. being regulated that determines things. Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: The President: Hon. members, the motion before the Court is printed at 9 on the order paper. Those in favour That the European Communities (Control of Exports please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes of Dual-Use Items and Technology) (Application) have it. (Amendment) Order 2001 [draft] be approved. Now, hon. members I think it is an appropriate time in which to adjourn and we will commence at 2.30 p.m. at The European Communities (Control of Exports of item 10 on the order paper. Thank you, hon. members. Dual-Use Items and Technology) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2000 applied the provisions of The Court adjourned at 1.02 p.m. European Community council regulation EC No 1334/ 2000 to the Isle of Man as part of the law of the Island. The EC regulation concerned the setting up of a community system of export control for dual-use items. Dual-use items Nursing and Residential Homes were defined in the EC regulation as items including (Amendment) (Fees) Regulations 2001 - software and technology which can be used for both civil Approved and military purposes, and included all goods which can be used for non-explosive uses and assisting in any way in The President: Now then, we resume our deliberations the manufacture of nuclear weapons or other nuclear at item 10 on the order paper. explosive devises.

Income Tax Exemption (Managed Banks) (Fees) Order 2001 - Approved Nursing and Residential Homes (Amendment) (Fees) Regulations 2001 - Approved European Communities (Control of Exports of Dual-Use Items and Technology) (Application) (Amendment) Order 2001 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T639

Now, the EC regulation 1334/2000 has recently been Electricity represents a logical by-product of the amended by Council regulation EC 2889, and this incineration plant and indeed this generation facility has amending EC regulation makes minor alterations to the been intended from an early stage in the planning of the annexes of the EC regulation 1334/2000 to allow for free incinerator. The generation of electricity and its movement of less proliferation-sensitive nuclear materials, contribution to the public supply would serve to reap an but to put stricter controls on transfer of goods regarded as environmental benefit from the operation of the facility. particularly sensitive in the context of weapons and non­ Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my proliferation. In other words, there has been a relaxation name. in the rules regarding trade and certain goods used legitimately in the nuclear industry, but a tightening of the The President: The hon. member for Rushen. regime with regard to materials which can be used in the manufacture of weapons. Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve Therefore, I would ask, in order the Island avoid being my remarks. used to circumvent these measures, that this hon. Court support the motion and approve the European Communities The President: The hon. member for Onchan, Mr (Control of Exports of Dual-Use Items and Technology) Karran. (Application) (Amendment) Order 2001 which stands at item number 11 on our agenda paper today, sir. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I have to say that I will be opposing this today because I actually think that we have Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. got the cart before the horse. I believe this is insanity. The fig leaf that we were using, the waste heat from an The President: The motion, hon. members, is that incinerator to generate electricity was thought up before printed at 11 on the order paper. Those in favour please we spent millions on a cable, before we had this conversion say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. as far as getting gas to the Island that some of us were battling about 10 years ago about this and the lost opportunity at Peel because the vested interest made sure that did not happen. But I personally believe that it is wrong Electricity Generation (Middle Farm to support this order. I believe that we all recognise that if Incinerator) Order 2001 - Approved we are going to have an incinerator, then the incinerator that should be using the waste heat on a massive public The President: I ask the Minister for Trade and Industry building as far as energy from waste is concerned. to move item 12. I think this is economic madness and I believe that this Court is foolish to give the green light as far as this is Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: concerned before we have gone through all the other stages. What we are going to end up with more likely is spending That the Electricity> Generation (Middle Farm a million pounds on consultancy fees or whatever and Incinerator) Order 2001 [SD No 86/01 ] be approved. design fees, for an electricity generation facility to be provided for the incinerator, and I believe that in that case The order subject to the approval of this hon. Court alone we are being premature, but the fact of the matter is, seeks to give consent to the construction and operation of no matter what the minister says, at the end of the day it is an electricity generation facility at the integrated incinerator the most inefficient way of using waste heat from an plant proposed for the site at Middle Farm, Braddan. The incinerator. I think it should not be supported and I think it order was made under section 6 of the Electricity Act 1996, should go back to the Council of Ministers, and what we which requires such consent to be given, whether it be for should be doing, if the lunatics have taken over the asylum a dedicated power station generator or, as in this case, a as far as building one of these incinerators is concerned, generator operated as a facility complimentary to the main then I think they should go back and look for something to put in the vicinity of the incinerator to use the waste heat, purpose of the plant. The order has been made without because even the experts say it is the most inefficient way presumptions concerning or prejudice to planning issues of using the waste heat, and I hope this Court will not regarding the incinerator. support that. It is all right the hon. member for Rushen The Public Health Act 1990 provides for the Department saying ‘wrong,’ but I am afraid there are none so blind as of Local Government and the Environment to use waste those that will not look, and the people that I am talking to for the purpose of producing electricity and for the sale of are people who have no axe to grind, no business this to the Manx Electricity Authority. The Department of commitments in the Island. It is a known fact that using Trade and Industry has been advised by the Department of waste heat from an incinerator for generating electricity is Local Government and the Environment that the most inefficient way and I think it is wrong and I think commencement of the construction of the incinerator, this Court should throw this out. subject to the approval of reserved matters under the Braddan (Middle Farm) (Planning Scheme) Order 1998 is The President: The hon. member Mr Gilbey. proposed for January 2002 and that phased testing of the plant, including the electricity generator, would be Mr Gilbey: Mr President, the last thing I want to do is scheduled for September 2003. to enter into a debate about the merits of incinerators. (Mr

Electricity Generation (Middle Farm Incinerator) Order 2001 - Approved T640 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

North: Hear, hear.) The fact of the case is, though, that are aiming at, but I do support the comments made by the this hon. Court, by a very substantial majority, agreed to member for Onchan and I thank him for making them. enter into a contract to build an incinerator and that is now being pursued. Now if we are going to have an incinerator, The President: The hon. member of Council, Mr which has been agreed by this hon. Court, surely we all Lowey. want it to be as environmentally useful as possible; we do not just want to bum the heat and get no benefits. Now, Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I am not going one of the benefits you can get is generating electricity. to get involved in the incinerator - I have got some The hon. member for Onchan says that we should not questions down next week about the incinerator - but what generate electricity, we should use district heating, but the I am raising is the timing of this order, because we have incinerator we are having built is capable of doing both not had the public inquiry into the incinerator yet and, those things: it is specifically designed so that it can although I do take note that the Minister for the DTI has undertake district heating and at the same time it can actually said it is without prejudice to that inquiry, that is generate electricity and it can do the two together perfectly from his department, but the people who will be presenting well. Now, we have not yet entered into a district heating it will be another department of government, and I am just scheme because on the first advice we received it appeared wondering - again I am trying to get the public perception extremely expensive in capital terms. However, the new of this, which is that it will be all right for that department houses at Pulrose are being constructed in such a way that of government to say, ‘Well, Tynwald Court has approved they could be heated by a district heating scheme coming a power station on the site, so I am just a little bit worried from the incinerator and I have asked a private enterprise and I am puzzled as to the timing of this inquiry, and firm to look at the possibility from a private enterprise perhaps the minister would like to tell me why it is point of view, of setting up a district heating scheme so necessary that this order be placed before us today in the there was no cost to the government in capital terms, and relationship to the rest of this project? this is being looked at. So the fact is that the incinerator is The President: The hon. member for Douglas East, designed so it can do both district heating and generate Mrs Cannell. electricity. A farther point: when we talk about design fees, the Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Well, I would design fees for the generation of electricity at the have thought it looks fairly obvious from the public’s incinerator are totally covered, as is the cost of the perception that the reason why the order is before us today generating equipment, by the resolution that this hon. Court is to perhaps strengthen the case for government when it approved some months ago. goes to the public inquiry with a detail for the change in conditions and subsequently the detailed planning consent. The President: The hon. member for Ayre. That is how it is being perceived by the public outside - that it is to strengthen government’s case in determining Mr Quine: Yes, the hon. member for Glenfaba, sir, has that the incinerator will go ahead come what may. covered most of the points I was going to make, but I just I too agree with the comments from the original speaker, want to add one additional fact, and that is, of course, the the hon. member for Onchan. It is not an efficient way of value of the electricity which would be generated will providing energy for anybody in today’s energy world and contribute in the order of a million pound to the running I would have thought that the hon. Minister for Trade and costs. Industry of all people ought to have known that, and I am sure he does know that. It seems ironic to me that the hon. The President: The hon. member for Peel. minister is also the representative for Middle and here he is, moving forward in providing that the department will Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I would like to be agreeing, because that is what it says in the order here: support the comments made by the member for Onchan ‘The Department of Trade and Industry consent to the because I feel that you have to weigh up the actual cost of construction and operating of a generating station as part generation and the efficiency and I think it is the efficiency, of the integrated incinerator energy from waste plant. ’ Well, that the member for Onchan is speaking about because it I think that is rather a huge compromise for the hon. is an inefficient way. Even power stations are an inefficient minister to be making in view of the fact that he represents way of producing electricity and I think we have to accept the constituency where it is proposed to be placed, but, that fact, and to have an incinerator to produce electricity that aside - and I am sure his constituents will not be very - it is all very well the member for Ayre saying it is going happy about that situation today - 1 think it is premature; I to raise a million pounds; that depends on the cost of do not believe this order should be coming forward at this electricity at the time it is being sold, and we only have to moment in time. I think the planning process procedure look at the statement that was made yesterday that the cost should be conducted, and if it is going to be conducted to the consumer is coming down, so there is no guarantee from the public’s perception as being there and impartial, that it is going to be a million pounds at the end of the day. then I would ask the hon. mover to withdraw this particular If you are going to have any sort of heating, all the experts order for the sake of democracy and fairness. Thank you. tell us that it should be district heating. It is much more efficient and we should get on and do that if we are going The President: The hon. member for Rushen, Mr to have this incinerator, which is what I think a lot of people Rimington.

Electricity Generation (Middle Farm Incinerator) Order 2001 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T641

Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I shall not that his views are very similar to mine, but to oppose and oppose the order in front of us although I. oppose quite not put this order through would be ridiculous, because if fully, as you are obviously aware, the principle of the you are going to have an incinerator then we should use incinerator that is being proposed, but I am looking at the electricity. (Mr Quine: Hear, hear.) The fact that I do not order quite closely. It does not talk in terms of the balance particularly think we are going the right way has got of energy produced by the plant that is being used for heat nothing to do with it. or electricity; it is purely just a facility to produce electricity. So, Mr President, I hope hon. members will in that vein Now, if we end up with an incinerator, which I would have please take it that I have not changed my opinion. The preferred not, then it is right that it should produce cost of it was included in the original motion that was electricity. It is also right - and I hope that the people will approved by this Court. progress the idea - that it should use the heat for district heating as well and that would be the most efficient if it is Mr Brown: Let us have one then. both electricity, a relatively small amount in terms of the energy usage and a larger amount used for district heat. So Mr North: I beg to move, Mr President. I cannot see actually any reason in terms of the good governance of the Isle of Man why we should oppose this, The President: Hon. members, the motion before you because if the building is to go ahead then it is right that it is printed at 12 on your order paper. Will those in favour should produce electricity and make the best of it. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The President: The hon. member for Douglas South, Mr Duggan. A division was calledfor and voting resulted as follows:

Mr Duggan: Thank you, Mr President. Needless to say, In the Keys - I will not be supporting the order before the Court. Could I ask the minister regarding the cost of this extra plant, For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, North, Sir Miles Walker, because the Energy Committee of Tynwald, as I have said Rimington, Houghton, Braidwood, Shimmin, Downie, in this Court before, looked into all the ins and outs of Singer, Bell, Corkill, Cannell, Gelling and utilising the waste heat and it was a dead duck and they the Speaker -15 discarded the issue altogether. So what new evidence has come forth for Mr North to come forward with this? I do Against: Messrs Henderson, Cretney, Duggan, not think it is viable, really, because of the cost of the plant. Mrs Cannell, Mrs Hannan and Mr Karran - 6

The President: I ask the minister to reply to the debate. The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the House of Keys, 15 votes in favour and 6 votes against. Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. Bearing in mind that I have not changed my views, hon. members in this In the Council - Court are well aware of my position, and we have had insanity and the fig leaf, lost opportunity at Peel, lunatics For: The Lord Bishop, Mr Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs taking over the asylum and none so blind as those who cannot see from the hon. member for Onchan - Kniveton, Radclijfe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney and Crowe - 8 Mr Delaney: No, no, that is only the ministers. Against: Mr Lowey -1 Mr North: - and, quite honestly, I can assure hon. members that as the Minister for the DTI. . . and perhaps The President: Hon. members, 8 votes for, the 1 vote the hon. member for East Douglas who could not against in the Legislative Council. The motion therefore understand my thinking on this one one day might aspire carries. to that position - or maybe she does - and will have to make such decisions based on looking at the facts and the evidence before you and not having a prejudged issue on Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) everything. (A Member: Hear, hear.) So I looked at this properly, as I said, bearing in mind how I think about this (Amendment) Regulations 2001 - Approved - and you know well about that - but to delay this at this- stage, we have got a proposed operator, to answer the hon. The President: Hon. members, we now turn to the Road member for Council, Mr Lowey. There is a proposed Traffic Act 1985, item 13 on your order paper, and I call operator who needs at this stage certain assurances and, as on the Minister of Transport to move. I said very clearly in my introduction, the order is made without presumptions concerning or prejudiced to planning Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: issues regarding the incinerator. The incinerator has to still go through planning in detail. That the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) That says it all. As far as I am concerned, I think the (Amendment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 98/01] be hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington, got it in one, approved.

Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 - Approved T642 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

The regulations make amendments to the construction the provisions of the proposed regulations. Hon. members and use regulations which came into force on 1st January have been circulated with a memorandum which gives 1999. The regulations amend the construction, equipment further information. I therefore beg to move the motion and weight regulations - that is SD346/98. The regulations standing in my name. also amend the maintenance and use regulations SD345/ 98, as I have said, and a memo has been circulated to Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. members providing information and advice as to the changes. I therefore beg to move the motion standing in The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed my name. at 14 on the order paper. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: The hon. member for Douglas East. Buses (Carriage of Passengers for Hire or Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Just a very Reward) (Construction and Use) brief point of clarification, really, from the hon. minister. Regulations 2001 - Approved As this is going to regulate the construction requirements for minibuses, I just wonder how that will dovetail with The President: I call then on the Minister for Transport the legislation which is presently going through the Keys, to move item 15. if it has anything at all to do with that? Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: The President: The minister to reply. That the Buses ( Carriage of Passengers for Hire or Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. My Reward) (Construction and Use) Regulations 2001 [SD understanding is there is no relationship except that it No 100/01 ] be approved. clearly defines ‘minibus’ and updates the regulations, but the terminology in the legislation in another place will, of The regulations supplement for the public service course, link in in terms of the ultimate definition of what vehicles or PSVs, the Island’s construction and use is a minibus. regulations. Buses used as PSVs are subject to constructional and equipment requirements which apply The President: Hon. members, the motion before you to them and are not relevant to other vehicles, so they are is that the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) set out in separate regulations. The proposed regulations (Amendment) Regulations 2001 be approved. Will those prescribe the requirements for the safe construction and in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. equipment of buses used as PSVs. They are based upon The ayes have it. the corresponding regulations in use in Great Britain and give Manx bus operators and PSV testers a set of PSV construction and use regulations which will have a direct statutory basis. Until now the British regulations have been Road Vehicles Lighting (Application) used as guidelines for the purpose of inspecting PSVs on (Amendment) Regulations 2001 - Approved the Island. I therefore beg to move the motion standing in my name, The President: Item 14, the Minister for Transport to and members have had a memorandum circulated with move. further details. I beg to move.

Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: The President: The hon. member for Peel.

That the Road Vehicles Lighting (Application) Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. (Amendment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 99/01] be approved. The President: The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. This motion is to provide for regulations to authorise police vehicles, emergency ambulances, fire service M r Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. This is an vehicles, breakdown vehicles, road maintenance and interesting set of regulations which I have perused and I clearance vehicles, airport fire tenders and coastguard have some questions for the minister in relation to them, vehicles to use retro-reflective materials of prescribed especially since we are expected to approve them this colours which would otherwise contravene the Road afternoon. Certainly on page 27 of the regulations, where Vehicles Lighting Regulations. The 1989 regulations at ‘seating’ in paragraph 30(4) it states ‘Every seat shall already cater to some degree for specialised vehicles but have a back rest so closed or otherwise constructed that it do not adequately cover the emergency vehicles. prevents as far as practicable the pockets of passengers Consultation has been undertaken with the various bodies from being picked’, which sounds fair enough, but I do who use such vehicles, and their remarks are reflected in not see anything in here following on for the seat belts

Road Vehicles Lighting (Application) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 - Approved Buses (Carriage of Passengers for Hire or Reward) (Construction and Use) Regulations 2001 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T643 that perhaps should be for these kinds of vehicles, and if was going to raise in terms of these regulations but I would he could enlighten us as to how far away we are from that just like to ask for clarification in terms again of the particular issue? minibuses, because on the explanatory memorandum Also with seating it gives various lengths of how far attached to the back of the regulations, in number 4 it is seats should be away from each other and so on. I must said that it is noted that minibuses complying with the point out to the hon. minister that some of these seem extensive requirements relating to them in the 1998 conservative in their measures in that larger passengers regulations are exempt from complying with these may well find themselves being squashed in, and having regulations except in relation to regulation 48, ‘Marking’. measured my own hip to knee length earlier today at 23 Now again in another place we have legislation coming inches I think we may well have a problem with some of before us which empowers a committee, if it is approved, the seating. who will or may make regulation in terms of markings, Also, the other concern I have really is when we come descriptions, anything to be put on'public passenger to page 34 of this document where we start discussing first vehicles and also those plying for hire, so again I would aid equipment. Now, I must ask first to put a couple of ask, how are these regulations going to dovetail with that little riders on here. I take it we are referring to coach legislation that is pending and, in view of the legislation vehicles for that but I would ask, What are we referring to that is pending, are we not going to be perhaps looking at or what is in force for ordinary PSVs or buses, not just new regulations which will replace the ones we are being private coaches? Could the minister clarify if this list of asked to approve today particularly in terms of when it first aid equipment is for just the accident of somebody on comes to marking, which is on the backpage, number 48? the coach who trips over getting out of a seat - an abrasion I just want to clarify also that PSVs is public service on the knee, for instance - or are we talking about the first vehicles, but public service vehicles are to be regulated aid equipment being in place if the coach actually does along with ply for hire in pending new legislation, so where have a crash or prang whereby there could be several is the cut-off point in terms of these regulations and passengers hurt? Now I cannot find it at the minute but I possibly new ones coming forward? am sure it says somewhere in these things that this was in case it would take a few minutes for a doctor to get to the The President: Minister to reply. vehicle, which would indicate that there may well be a serious injury, in which case then the first aid equipment Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I think the first should be geared to that. If that is the case, then I have to ask the hon. minister when was the last time this was thing that members should realise is that we have not got properly assessed to be so packed and is it actually adequate the expertise in the Isle of Man to do such detailed and for multiple injuries such as 10 antiseptic wipes foil- complicated construction and use regulations, and we do packed. Well, I presume they are the little square what we very much rely on the regulations that apply certainly that call medi-swabs, and if you have 16 or more passengers apply in the British Isles and further afield in some cases, on one of these coaches and several of them are injured, and of course we have to be conscious that some of our then I do not think that is going to help much and neither vehicles travel to those countries and therefore we are 12 assorted safety pins. endeavour to keep our regulations in line with those other But also, how are we going to administer the first aid countries. So the regulations before you are basically die and how is it marked in the cabins? These regulations, it regulations that would apply in those countries, especially struck me, are very well set out and specific, which is how within the British Isles. I like to see things, and then there is a pretty good direction As far as the seat belt construction situation is concerned on it and no room for loose interpretation; if that is the which the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, case, then I think we should be making it very clear as to asked about, buses certainly at this stage have not been what else - 1 feel there should be things called steri-strips, designed within the British Isles to take seat belts. The because if the bus is going to crash we are likely to have difficulty is that with the construction of the vehicle, unlike head injuries and other bits and pieces that may need coaches, they have a different chassis and they are attending to and perhaps an airway, but we are back to the constructed in a totally different way. So at this stage, whilst situation who is going to administer the first aid? I would we have looked at them as a department whether to be grateful for some clarification on this to see what the introduce them, we are advised by those who know better first aid pack is aimed at and also whether it is highly visible that in fact it would not be in the best interests of the for passengers if the bus driver himself is injured and would travelling public to actually enforce the implementation not be able to perform any first aid techniques that may be of seat belts on buses prior to buses being modified to be required. able to take them, as it in fact could be dangerous. Now, I So those are just a few queries. If the minister could think we all take the view and I certainly do that I look outline what the first aid kit is aimed at to start with, then forward to the day when the public who travel on a bus I think we will be on the right track. Thank you. have the option of wearing a seat belt, they have the choice, but until buses are constructed by those who manufacture The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs them under EC and British regulations which ultimately Cannell. we would adopt, we have to just bide time and wait to see what happens. What I Would say is that I am very pleased, Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I shall be brief. and the department was very pleased indeed, that Isle of The previous speaker actually covered one point which I Man Tours in fact invested in fitting seat belts in all their

Buses (Carriage of Passengers for Hire or Reward) (Construction and Use) Regulations 2001 - Approved T644 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 coaches, certainly those that could take them, and the The President: Hon. members, the motion is printed consumer then who uses that coach has the choice whether at 15 on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; or not they wish to wear seat belts. So really seat belts for against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. vehicles ¿at carry passengers in that way are subject to the construction of that vehicle, and that really is the main limitation on whether or not they are fitted. Criminal Legal Aid Order 2001 - Approved As far as the space between the seats, again we are adopting, as far as I am aware, the same criteria as The President: We will turn then to item 16 and I call elsewhere. Again it is all a matter that we have a minibus on the Minister for Treasury to move. or a bus or a coach, whatever it is, of a physical size and within that it takes so many passengers and that dictates Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: how much space is allowed between the seats, and I would say to the hon. member for Douglas North, who is That the Criminal Legal Aid Order 2001 [SD No somewhat taller than I am and maybe even broader in some 103/01 ] be approved. occasions, that I have often sat in a minibus and found that the room between the seats is anything but enjoyable - The Criminal Legal Aid Order sets the rates payable to advocates undertaking not just criminal legal aid but also Mrs Crowe: It depends who you are with! civil legal aid work. The Criminal Legal Aid Order is generally reviewed by the Treasury on an annual basis and Mr Brown: - if you are on a journey, but I would also the rates are then usually only increased by the amount of say that about travelling by air, that certainly when you the increase in the retail price index since the order was travel long haul you actually are very uncomfortable on last reviewed, but that is not quite the case with this year’s these occasions unless you go and pay club class. order. The Treasury is required to consult with their As far as the first aid equipment is concerned, again I Honours the before making the order and during would make the point that it is what it says it is, which is the course of consultation this year it was suggested to the first aid. It is not there, as far as I understand it, to enable Treasury that the rates payable to advocates for appearance somebody to undertake work that would be undertaken by time for legal aid work should be the same as that payable paramedics if the accident was serious enough. Purely it under the Advocates Prescribed Fees Regulations 2000 is there to provide equipment so the driver and/or which are made by the Advocates Fees Committee. The passengers have the ability, if somebody is injured, to at Treasury concurred with this suggestion with the result least undertake certain amount of limited first aid. that the order before us today increases the rates payable Naturally, if the accident was serious enough, then of course for preparation work and travelling time by the rate of the we all know that they should wait for the professionals increase in the RPI since the order was last made - that is, who will give the proper medical treatment, and that does a figure of 3.3 per cent - but the rates payable to a junior not matter whether it is a minibus a car or anything else. advocate for appearance time in trial and appeal So my understanding is that this is ensuring that there is at proceedings have, however, been increased by 7.25 per least a standard amount of equipment on these minibuses cent and 13.92 per cent for senior advocates. Rates payable and the buses, and therefore that there is provision for appearance time in summary proceedings have been available. increased by 7.25 per cent. It is intended that future As far as the point from Mrs Cannell is concerned, I increases will generally, though, reflect the increase in RPI would make the point that the regulations we are making as is the usual policy. I beg to move, Mr President. today are for today, and if we have to change the regulations because of other changes in primary legislation, other Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. terminology in primary legislation, then of course the department will come back to Tynwald Court and present The President: Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr new regulations to Tynwald, and it will be a matter for Houghton. Tynwald whether or not they wish to modify them. I would say the department is far more up to date with its regulations Mr Houghton: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I will be now than it used to be because we now have the ability to supporting this order too but I would just like to ask - it is keep on top of these regulations than we used to in terms of having the personnel available to do it. The difficulty is my annual appeal to the Treasury minister - in respect of that a lot of the construction and use regulations are legal aid and the misuse of legal aid. Has he had time yet changing quite regularly because of other external to consider whether those repeat offenders, who of course influences such as the EU, the design of vehicles, and we are on their third or more conviction, are ordered by the endeavour to keep up with that, so if we need to change court to repay that legal aid? Has he considered that request them the answer to the hon. member for Douglas East is from last year and previous years, sir? Thank you. yes, we will come back to Tynwald Court as appropriate and amend them, but, as of today, from the department’s The President: Hon. member Mr Henderson. point of view these are the most appropriate regulations which improve the present situation and we will continue Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I come from to move as we need to. I beg to move. a slightly different angle of attack on this particular order

Criminal Legal Aid Order 2001 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T645 before us. Although supportive of an uprating, which of Mr Houghton: Well, he would not have to repay then. course is fíne, I must point out some anomalies with this legal aid system and ask the Treasury minister, could he Mr Corkill: - and therefore in fact he is just as entitled please at some stage initiate some sort of review to try and to legal representation as anyone who is a first-time iron out some of these anomalies while we are in the throes offender, in my view. I know the hon. member disagrees of uprating the system? This is in special reference to the with that point of view but I do believe it is the majority situation whereby somebody who has committed a criminal view within this Court that in fact legal aid should be offence can fully expect legal aid in court, yet somebody available equally to all people whether they have got a who is trying to represent their interests in an employment track record or not. tribunal cannot have any sort of legal aid faced by an Mr Henderson, member for Douglas North - it is quite employer who obviously can pay for legal assistance and interesting that two members for Douglas North have got so on. This is an anomaly which has continually been at a different view on these issues; (Interjections) I think that the forefront of my mind; it is a great unfairness and is a healthy position to take, hon. members, but the hon. injustice that has been going on for years and years, and I member Mr Henderson mentions about anomalies and think it is now time to grasp the nettle. If the Treasury employment tribunals, and I think in a number of areas minister can give me some sort of assurance on that I would the governments I would suggest, sir, that there is a danger be greatly comforted, Mr President. of getting too legal too soon. We see it sometimes in the planning environment where people think that they need The President: Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. to have a QC, even, to promote a planning application. Surely die beauty of a system which is small and beautiful Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. Getting away like the Isle of Man’s is that we do not necessarily need to maybe slightly from what is on the order paper, I would go to those depths as it were or extent in terms of giving like to make an appeal to government as a whole to look at advocates all of that extra work, but that is perhaps a point offending so that the legal aid bill is not quite as high as it that the hon. member and I disagree upon. But I think there is, because I believe everyone should be represented and is a danger, as I said, of going too complicated too soon everyone should, no matter what, have representation, and when so many of these things can actually be dealt with at a more lay person’s level earlier on. if someone does not have the means to pay for that Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, was saying about representation then it all comes down to legal aid. But I do keeping people out of prison and out of the courts, and believe that we should be doing all the more that we can to obviously that is an ideal situation. I guess I could criticise try to keep people out of the courts, out of prison and give it as being slightly utopian to think that we can go all the people a better quality of life than just saying, ‘Oh we’ll way with that, because I do believe there is also a represent them’ or ‘We’ll pay for legal aid should they responsibility on citizens to keep themselves out of court need representation.’ What we should be working towards and out of prison as well, so there is a balance to be struck is trying to keep people out, rehabilitation and doing there, but I think all in all her comments are very supportive everything that we can, even when they do get before the of legal aid, and can I say that in recent years the budgetary courts, so that they do not end up on prison but maybe do provision for legal aid has been consistent and not out of community service, and I think, instead of charging people control as perhaps it was considered to be at one point. when it is the second or third offence for their legal aid, Therefore the funding of it is on the level and I would not what we should be doing is aiming at them not to be want perhaps the general public to think there is anything offending for a second and a third time but trying to keep wrong with the budgetary provision for it; it is, year on them out of prison for as long as possible, give them a year, fairly consistent. I beg to move, Mr President. better quality of life and also aid the people that would have been at the other end of their offendings - the victims. The President: Hon. members, the motion before us is So I think overall government has got to do a lot more. printed at 16 on the order paper that the Criminal Legal This goes some way to assisting people once they get into Aid Order be approved. Those in favour please say aye; the court so they are properly represented, but I believe against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. government should do a lot more.

The President: Treasury minister to reply. Income Tax (Reduction of Class 4 Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. It would be Contributions) Order 2001 - Approved tempting with the lead I have been given to enter into quite- a debate (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) in terms of replying to The President: Item 17, Treasury minister to move. the points made. The order is quite straightforward, but, certainly in response to the points made, hon. member for Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: Douglas North Mr Houghton has annually made this statement about misuse of the legal aid system, but the That the Income Tax (Reduction of Class 4 point I would make, I think supported by the hon. member Contributions) Order 2001 [SD No 101/01 ] be approved. for Peel, Mrs Hannan, is that someone may well be charged, found guilty in court and sentenced maybe six times in a This order is an exercise of the powers conferred on the row; on the seventh occasion he could well be not guilty - Treasury by section 32A(6) of the Income Tax Act 1970

Income Tax (Reduction of Class 4 Contributions) Order 2001 - Approved T646 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 which reduces the rate of tax relief granted in the to find each year perhaps when they see it as a lump sum assessment of class 4 national insurance contributions paid, figure, whereas employees in a normal way of employment the reduction from 20 per cent to 18 per cent, with effect with a large employer or whichever employer sees their from 6th April 2001. The relief under section 32A of the national insurance on a weekly basis or a monthly basis Income Tax Act 1970 has been set at the higher rate of with their salary, so it is something that self-employed income tax. Tynwald has approved the reduction of the people have to make provision for. higher rate of income tax from 20 per cent to 18 per cent with effect from 6th April 2001, and this order merely Mr Henderson: Can we have a table? reflects that change. I beg to move, Mr President. Mr Corkill: I will certainly look at the figures, Mr The President: Mr Radcliffe. President.

Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second. The President: Hon. members, the motion before us is printed at 17 on your order paper. Those in favour please The President: Mr Henderson. say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to make a couple of queries on this reduction of class Income Tax (Modified ITIP) (Amendment) 4 contribution. We have recently seen the dropping of the ceiling in which class 4 is payable by self-employed and Regulations 2001 - Approved the raising of it on the other end, where higher will net further contribution payments, and the minister has had The President: We turn then to 18, the Income Tax some queries from me already in relation to that, and (Instalment Payments) Act 1974 Treasury minister. certainly in the method of the way the department collects their tax, perfectly legal as it is, but it is a retrospective Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: collection which has caused some degree of concern with some of my constituents. This order today indicates a That the Income Tax (Modified ITIP) (Amendment) reduction, so I am just wondering by how much that offsets Regulations 2001 [SD No 102/01 ] be approved. the original increases in class 4 contributions where we lowered the net to catch more folk and pushed it up at the This order is also in the same spirit as the previous one higher end as well. Does this offset it to any greater degree? because of the rate reduction of 20 per cent to 18 per cent. That is what I am after, really, and to see what the overall Details have been circulated and I beg to move the Income effect is. It is a complicated situation and I hope the hon. Tax (Instalment Payments) Act 1974, sir. Treasury minister can clarify it for us. The President: Mr Radcliffe. The President: I call on the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Corkill, to reply. Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir.

Mr Corkill: Yes, following on from those comments, The President: The motion, hon. members, is that the Mr President, I know the hon. member has been concerned Income Tax (Modified ITIP) (Amendment) Regulations in the past about retrospectivity, as it were, in the way that 2001 be approved. Those in favour please say aye; against, these things are calculated, because I do believe he has no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. had a constituent who has had assessment for class 4 which has been higher than the current year income would have suggested because it was assessed on the previous year’s Social Security Contributions and Benefits income, which is the normal way of doing things. What I Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) Order would like to say is that under the new taxation strategy 2001 - Approved that we are embarked upon there is a policy of simplification of the taxation with regard to income tax The President: Item 19, Minister for Health and Social and the whole thing will eventually be on an actual year basis. That will take away this year-on-year problem where Security, Mrs Christian, to move. people are comparing two different figures, effectively, and they are trying to come up with the answer for a particular Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to year when really they should be referring back to the move: previous year. With regard to the scale of class 4 and the ceilings and That the Social Security Contributions and Benefits things, I have not got the figures in front of me. Obviously Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2001 [SDNo a reduction in the overall rate is a saving but how the 81/01 ] be approved. national insurance class 4 scale is arranged does change from time to time, and certainly for the self-employed This order provides for regulations to be made allowing person class 4 is a very considerable contribution for them family income supplement to be extended to persons who

Income Tax (Modified ITIP) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 - Approved Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2001 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T647

are treated as being responsible and also living in the same The President: Hon. members, the motion before you household as a disabled adult. It also allows the payment is printed at 19 on your order paper. Those in favour please period for family income supplement to be extended from say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. 12 to 26 weeks. This change provides for a payment period which is long enough to make it practical for a beneficiary’s housing costs to be paid direct to their landlord or lender if this is thought to be in the interests of the beneficiary’s Social Security Legislation (Application) family. Details have been circulated to hon. members. I (No. 3) Order 2001 - Approved beg to move. The President: Item 20, the Minister for Health and The President: Hon. member for Rushen. Social Security to move.

Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to second and for once not reserve my remarks but just briefly move: point out to the Court that the Department of Social Security is sometimes considered as the great Saturn of That the Social Security Legislation (Application) departments and is there to restrict the movement of money (No. 3) Order 2001 [SD No 82/01 ] be approved. to the needy people of the Isle of Man et cetera (Interjections) but when representations are made to the This order makes a number of miscellaneous changes department we do listen and we do try and bring changes to social security legislation. Amongst other things it allows about for the benefit of the people and contained in this for a payment to be made under the Disability (Working order and in the other orders before us today are a number Allowance) Regulations again for a disabled adult. They of measures which have been brought to our attention by do presently cover the provision of a disabled child but members of this Court seeing anomalies in the system, they are now being extended to keep them in line with the and in such a large bureaucratic system with a great deal family income supplement rules. Also, provision is made of legislation covering it there is always going to be little for the ex-gratia payment made to Far-East prisoners of anomalies that need addressing. Having those brought to war to be disregarded when ascertaining entitlement to our attention then, it is very grateful to be able to say that, benefit. I confirm that this provision has been anticipated ‘Well, yes, we have been able to do something about those in the operation of the income support scheme. and improve the system on the advice of members. ’ Thank The legislation also provides that where persons find you, Mr President. themselves in arrears with their housing or fuel costs and it is in the best interests of the family, the department may The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Delaney. make deductions from their benefit and pay those deductions to the body with whom the beneficiary is in Mr Delaney: Just a quick one, Mr President. Could the debt. At present the department has authority to do this minister tell us if she has the figures handy - if not maybe only where the benefit is income support or income-related she could find out - how many people or families are jobseekers’ allowance. This order extends the department’s actually getting the extra supplement? I would be interested powers to other benefits. We believe that this will enable to know that - in receipt of the supplement. us, in conjunction with DoLGE and local authorities, to anticipate more quickly where people are getting into The President: Minister to reply. difficulties and perhaps assist in the payment of bills direct in order to secure the roofs over the heads of those families. Mrs Christian: Mr President, I do not have that I beg to move, Mr President. information at my fingertips. The number in receipt of family income supplement as far as lone parents are The President: Hon. member for Rushen. concerned is, I think, of the order of 300-odd; that number has increased because people have moved off other benefits Mr Rimington: Mr President, thank you. The question onto family income supplement, which is structured in a the hon. member of Council was asking - I am not sure way which helps them in terms of hours that have to be quite precisely what he was looking for. In terms of the worked to qualify for it to do part-time work at the same numbers of people who might be affected by the particular time as taking care of their families. However, I do not change in legislation in relation to the disabled adult - have the overall number which includes other families as well but I can circulate that information to the hon. member.- Mr Delaney: That was on the last item on the agenda, I thank my hon. colleague for pointing out that, yes, we if I can help him. have responded to individual cases which have come to our attention in respect of caring for a disabled adult, for Mr Rimington: Yes, I know - is certainly less than on example, and made changes to accommodate the one hand, one, two, three is going to have a marginal difficulties where a family may be looking after a disabled change; for those individuals it will obviously be adult and found that their benefit in the past ceased when significant. that person became an adult, but we now recognise that in many ways they are still as children and the support will The President: Hon. member for Rushen, I am waiting continue. to see if you are going to second this one.

Social Security (Application) (No. 3) Order 2001 - Approved T648 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001

Mr Rimington: I also beg to second the motion! Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move:

The President: Thank you. That the Income Related Benefits (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2001 [SD No 84/01] be Mr Rimington: As a point of information the family approved. income supplement case load for single women or separated or divorced women is standing roughly at about Mr President, as in the previous order the upper capital 640 for the two categories together. limit is removed in the regulations in respect of income support and family income supplement regulations. I beg Mrs Crowe: Your answer there, Mr Delaney! to move.

Mr Delaney: Well done. The President: Hon. member for Rushen.

The President: Hon. members, the motion before us is Mr Rimington: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my printed at 20 on the order paper. Those in favour please remarks. say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Hon. member Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I could not Social Security Legislation (Application) let the side down. I have to make one or two positive (No. 4) Order 2001 - Approved comments to this particular uprating exercise. I wholeheartedly support it and also, due to the efforts of The President: Item 21, Minister for Health and Social some of our constituents at Glenside last year, ithas brought Security. this issue to the attention of Social Security and I am very pleased that some people who were not in receipt of the Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: income support now very well be able to come into this net. Thank you, Mr President. That the Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 4) Order 2001 [SD No 83/01 ] be approved. The President: Do you wish to add anything, minister?

Mr President, this order, and indeed the income-related Mrs Christian: I thank the hon. member for his support. benefits regulations that immediately follow it, provide (Interjection) It does provide for a taper and I am sorry for the removal of the upper capital limit for income that the hon. gentleman looks as though he needs the help support, income-based jobseekers’ allowance and family of the health service! (Laughter and interjections) I do income supplement. At present, if a person has capital in believe, Mr President, that it will be of some value to those excess of £15,000, or £20,000 if they are in a residential who are marginally above the cut-off point. or nursing home, they are automatically excluded from benefit at that cut-off point, but if the capital is in excess The President: Hon. members, the motion before us is of £10,000 but less than £15,000, or £20,000 in the case of printed at 22 on the order paper. Those in favour please residential care, then an assumed income of £1 for every say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. £250 in excess of that £20,000 would be deducted from the benefit entitlement. The removal of the limit provides that the tariff of £1 per £250 in excess of £10,000 will Family Income Supplement (General) apply to all capital in excess of that sum. Full details have (Amendment) Regulations 2001 - Approved been circulated to hon. members. I beg to move this item, Mr President. The President: We turn then turn 23 and it is again for The President: Hon. member for Rushen. the Minister of Health and Social Security to move.

Mr Rimington: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: sir. That the Family Income Supplement The President: The motion before us is printed at 21 (General)(Amendment) Regulations 2001 [SD No 85/01] on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; against, be approved. no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Mr President, I refer to my previous comments concerning the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992 (Application) (Amendment) Order 2001 and the Income Related Benefits (Miscellaneous extension of the family income supplement for persons Amendments) Regulations 2001 - Approved responsible for a disabled adult. These regulations include the definition of ‘disabled adult’ in relation to that previous The President: Item 22, Mrs Christian to move. order. I beg to move.

Social Security (Application) (No. 4) Order 2001 - Approved Income Related Benefits (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations 2001 - Approved Family Income Supplement (General) (Amendment) Regulations 2001 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T649

The President: Hon. member Mr Rimington. Port Erin (Boundary Extension) Order 2001 - Approved Mr Rimington: I beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks. The President: Item 25, Minister for Local Government and the Environment to move. The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed at 23 on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I beg to move: against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. That the Port Erin (Boundary Extension) Order 2001 [SD No 84A/01 ] be approved. Permitted Hours (Licensed Premises) (Temporary Variation) Order Mr President, this order will have the effect of extending the boundaries of the Village District of Port Erin to include 2001 - Approved certain parcels of land which are presently within the parish district of Rushen. In March 1998 the department received The President: We turn now to 24 and I call upon the an application under section 6 of the Local Government Minister for Home Affairs to move. Act 1985 from the Port Erin Village Commissioners for an extension of the boundaries of Port Erin village. Before Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: making an order under this section, the department was obliged to consult with every local authority whose district That the Permitted Hours (Licensed Premises) would be affected by the proposed order: Port Erin and (Temporary Variation) Order 2001 [SD No 62/01] be Port St Mary Village Commissioners and Rushen Parish approved. Commissioners. In addition, a public notice also invited views from members of the public. A public inquiry was chaired by his honour Mr President, the order before the Court will, if Callow CBE on 26th April 2000 at St Catherine’s Church approved, provide extended licensing hours for any Hall, Port Erin. The request from Port Erin Commissioners licensed premises, namely public houses and licensed was for the extension to take in two parcels of land which restaurants during this year’s TTperiod. Normal permitted adjoin the present south-eastern boundary of that district, hours are 10 a.m. to 11 p.m. on Mondays to Thursdays, 10 one area consisting a number of properties south-east of a.m. until midnight on Fridays and Saturdays and 12 noon Truggan Road and the other area including a proposed new to 11 p.m. on Sundays. This order extends those hours so residential development between Truggan Road and the that permitted hours will run until 12 midnight on each steam railway line, and a small area which comprises the evening from the Sunday of practice week, which is Sunday dwelling Mull House adjoining the south-western boundary 27th May, up to and including the Sunday at the end of of Port Erin. race week, which is Sunday 10th June. In other words, it During the public inquiry, his Honour adopted a criteria is an extension of one hour on Mondays to Thursdays and approved by the select committee of Tynwald in 1984 when on the Sundays during the period covered by this order. considering an application to extend the boundaries of Douglas. His Honour considered written submissions from Mr President, this is the third year that I have brought Port Erin Village and Rushen Parish Commissioners as such an order before this hon. Court for approval. No well as from a number of householders from the affected problems have been encountered with the extended hours area. At the inquiry the case for the Port Erin during the two years that they have operated and I believe Commissioners was presented by their clerk, Mr Kewley they have been welcomed by the many thousands of race and the case for the Rushen Commissioners by their fans who visit the Island at this time. So, Mr President, I Chairman, Mrs Shimmin. His Honour’s report beg to move the motion standing in my name. recommended that the dwelling Mull House should be included in the boundary extension together with one of The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. the parcels of land adjoining the south-eastern boundary. Details of the areas of land are set out in the order which Mr Cannell: Yes, Mr President, I second the motion has been previously circulated to hon. members. The and would advise hon. members that this order is optional, department considered His Honour’s report at a special not compulsory, so if there is any difficulty with the TT meeting and agreed to endorse the report’s races, clearly the order would be requiring to be recommendations. I beg to move. implemented by the publicans themselves and would be The President: Hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe. unlikely to operate. Mrs Crowe: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed my remarks. at 24 on the order paper, that the Permitted Hours (Licensed Premises) (Temporary Variation) Order 2001 be approved. The President: The motion before us is printed at 25 Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; against it. The ayes have it. no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

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Business Advertisements (Disclosure) Order Mrs Crowe: It takes up a considerable amount of our 1997 (Application) Order 2001 - Approved time at the Office of Fair Trading, Mr President, dealing with motor car sales, especially those with used car The President: 26, Chairman of the Isle of Man Office vehicles, and the problem that has been highlighted by the of Fair Trading, Mrs Crowe, to move. hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer, is why this particular order is before the Court. We do continuously monitor the Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I beg to move: sales of second-hand vehicles. We have noticed increasingly there is the kind of problem that have been That the Business Advertisements (Disclosure) highlighted where persons are dealing in the sales of cars, Order 1977 (Application) Order 2001 [SD No 96/01 ] be which we would consider to be in trade. Whilst the person approved. is in trade, they have responsibilities about the condition of the car that they are selling. So it is very important to us Mr President, this order is made under section 7 of the to be able to make it an offence to trade as a private seller Fair Trading Act 1996, which enables the Office of Fair if one is in trade, and we do recognise and we do know Trading by order to apply to the Island, as part of the law most of these traders. If any hon. members do have these of the Island, any order made under section 22 of the Fair problems in their constituency, please get in touch with us Trading Act 1973. This order applies to the Island the because we do very carefully monitor throughout the Island Business Advertisements (Disclosure) Order 1977, a the sales of second-hand vehicles. Thank you, Mr statutory instrument made under section 22 of the Fair President. Trading Act of 1973 which prohibits persons seeking to sell goods in the course of a business from publishing, or The President: Hon. members, the motion before us is causing to be published, advertisements which indicate that that the Business Advertisements (Disclosure) Order 1977 goods are for sale and which are likely to induce consumers (Application) Order 2001 be approved. Those in favour to buy goods unless it is made reasonably clear that the please say aye; against no. The ayes have it. The ayes have goods are sold in the course of a business. The order does it. not apply to advertisements for sale by auction or by competitive tender, or to sales of certain horticultural and farm produce gathered, produced or taken by the seller. Student Awards Scheme 2001 - Approved The order is an important consumer protection measure. It makes it an offence for a business seller to masquerade The President: We turn then to 27.1 call on the Minister as a private seller in an advertisement, by which means for Education to move. they have been known to try and avoid their statutory responsibilities under the laws governing the supply and Mr Rodan: Mr President I beg to move: description of goods. A good example of the effect of this order can be seen in publications such as Exchange and That the Student Awards Scheme 2001 [GC No 11/ Mart, where advertisements now have to be clearly marked; 01 ] be approved. when they are trading as a trader, the advertisement has to be identified with ‘ ’ sign or the word, ‘trade.’ Mr President, Mr President, in bringing before Tynwald the new I beg to move. Student Awards Scheme for 2001, the department is seeking Tynwald approval for further substantial The President: Hon. member Mr Houghton. improvements to the way we support our students. Hon. members may recall that last year I announced to the Court Mr Houghton: I beg to second, sir. phase one of implementing the recommendations of an The President: Hon. member Mr Singer. independent assessment of our student awards system to be phased in over two academic years. Last year saw an Mr Singer: In fully supporting this motion on the order increase in the maximum maintenance grant available to paper, could I ask the chairman how in fact your department Isle of Man students studying in the UK outside London will be checking that the advertisements which, for amounting to 6.2 per cent, an increase from £3,218 to example, for the sale of a car, do not say ‘trader’ are in £3,418. This year, a further £602 is to be added, taking the fact genuine, because there is a growing problem, certainly maximum grant to £4,020, an increase of no less than 25 I know in my constituency, of people who are as a sideline, per cent over this two-year period. The maximum grant advertising in the papers and selling cars but in fact it is available to Isle of Man students, albeit means-tested very difficult to prove, even by sending it to the Planning according to parental income, is now greater than what is Committee, as I have done, adverts of the person available to UK students by means-tested student loan, advertising on a regular basis selling different cars. So which of course has to be repaid. In addition, Mr President, perhaps the chairman could outline what action can also we shall continue to pay all tuition fees in full, unlike the be taken against this sort of illegal trading. adjacent isles, which require student contributions of £1050 annually. The President: The Chairman of the Office of Fair I believe hon. members will welcome these significant Trading to reply. improvements to this scheme. The changes will benefit

Business Advertisements (Disclosure) Order 1977 (Application) Order 2001 - Approved Student Awards Scheme 2001 - Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T651 not only 250 non-research students who are on full the full amount. There are families that are out there who maintenance grant with an extra £602 per annum but also cannot, or indeed, if they do, they find it very difficult for 10 research students on full awards by an additional £1,019. the young people away from home to manage. If the family Additionally, we are also increasing the parental is not well-off and the students get a full means-tested contribution threshold, thus allowing improved access to maintenance grant they are looked after, but there are many full maintenance grants for students of low-income families in the middle there from that amount right the way through and increasing the bandings by 3.2 per cent, thus bringing to the families that can afford. It is those children in the more students into the grant system and increasing the level middle that have no other means of getting support. We of assistance available to them. Other improvements have been through it all. They can go to the bank; they can include raising the age limit for mandatory awards from get a loan. But a student loan is a different set-up altogether. 35 to 40 years and amending the criteria for independent They do not pay it back until they are earning an amount, status so as to allow all students out of full-time education and our students used to get that. for three years to be classed as independent. Support for I wonder where the Department of Education is up to students wishing to study at the new Isle of Man Business try to secure that for our future students. I am not asking School is being introduced at the same level as higher this from the United Kingdom student loan company. There education support at Isle of Man College. should be a possibility of us doing it here, investing in our In respect of the Post-graduate Certificate of Education students for the future, and also with the provision for them courses, with the introduction of teacher training salaries, to repay. I would think that is a possibility. What concerns an application to the relevant university and the fact that me is that we speak very confidently about supporting our Isle of Man students are eligible for such training salaries, students better than anyone else, and yes, we do, we pay there is no need for maintenance grant funding to be part fees - and there has been a problem with fees in the last of our scheme. However, should that situation change, we couple of weeks - and that is an advantage for all our shall of course amend the scheme again accordingly. students, right the way across the board whether they can The estimated cost of this, Mr President, is £380,000 afford it or not, so every student gets that. What I am concerned about is the student that is really in the middle and this is part of this year’s budget settlement with the here. We always talk about the grey area. These are very Treasury. Last year I also raised the possibility of an Isle definite grey areas which cause problems for young people of Man loan scheme to run in parallel to allow students who know that the family are in difficult circumstances not in receipt of government grant support access to funds having to find this amount of money for them to be there, other than parental support, and I would confirm that work and the parents are at their wit’s end trying to provide this on this is still ongoing in consultation with Treasury. Other for the students. details of amendments to the scheme are as per the I would hope that the Department of Education can look explanatory memorandum. at it and can come up with something that will help and In reviewing the awards scheme for this year, and assist, as well as paying means-tested grants. I will support bringing it to this hon. Court, I would wish to place on this, but I hope that the minister has got something else to record my appreciation for the work done by the give us. department’s student awards officers, in particular, Mrs Karen Shimmin, and also to my departmental colleague, The President: Hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe. the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, who chairs the Student Awards Committee which administers Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I too am delighted aspects of the scheme including discretionary awards. I to support the Minister for Education in the increased am pleased to commend this scheme, Mr President, to student grants, but I did want to comment on something Tynwald Court and invite the support of hon. members the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, has just mentioned, and I beg to move. which is the student loan scheme. Now, we have a debt counselling service at the Office of Fair Trading which I The President: Hon. member for Douglas North. am sure you are fully aware of, and we do have some concerns about the level of student debt. We have concerns Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to about the level of a lot of debt around at the present time, second and reserve my remarks. and there is an encouragement with student loans to take out a loan to repay when one starts work, but the average The President: Hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. debt now that a UK student comes out of university with is £12,000.1 think that we would all acknowledge that to Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Vainstyr Loayreyder. I- have that kind of debt around one’s neck before one starts welcome the increase. I welcome the ability of the work... I do fully understand where you are coming from. Government to increase these amounts. However, in saying There is always a grey area in the middle where someone that, it is down to means-testing and my concern remains, does not slot in, but when we talk about student loans I and I would like the minister to spell out exacdy where he think there has to be some concern about the level of debt is up to with trying to secure loans or a situation where the that students are coming out of university with at the in-between students, the students who do not get any present time. Thank you. support or very little support through the department, do not have families who can support them to the full amount The President: Hon. member for Douglas West, Mr - the families who are not in a position to support them to Shimmin.

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Mr Shimmin: Thank you, Mr President. Firstly on the was addressed some six months ago. It is important, I think, point made by the previous speaker, my understanding because the cost of being a student in the adjacent isle is ( from the member for Peel was not that there should be a broadly £1,500 more than the maximum grant that is student loan for the entire fees and support level but is one available now, so there is a shortfall in actual living whereby it actually is a means of accessing greater levels expenses which has to be made up by whatever means, of people into that system, and I would certainly not support whether it is the student working, or whether it is parental any progression down the road of a UK model where the support, or I would be prefer it to be a loan. Certainly a lot whole fees would have to be put onto a loan basis. of parents are not in a position to give that financial support I would like to concur with the minister in his when they have already had to contribute to the level of appreciation of the work carried out by the Appeals grant to bring it up to the £4,000 level. Certainly in many Committee and the Awards Committee, including my hon. cases families tend to have children going to university friend, Mr Henderson. In approaching an appeal with overlapping and can be quite hit financially at that time constituents I found the system to be excellent. However, and not in a position to give that extra level of support on reading the scheme before us today, I would ask the which is widely recognised as being the basic level that is minister whether I have misunderstood it; in paragraph 20 required for living as a student in the UK. I think we are on appeals, whether the appeals here appear to be on the very much in danger of making it difficult for the low paid discretionary awards. Is he satisfied that all of the people in the community and for their children to go to mechanisms in place in paragraph 20 would also cover university. mandatory awards for both grants and for eligible courses Mr President, I do find it rather surprising that on the and also the amount that might be granted by the Island that we have in our Government, we have quite a department in a mandatory or discretionary award? I think very competent Treasury, in general terms. it is there, but I did not find it clear when I read it, so I would ask him to just confirm that he is satisfied the appeals Mrs Crowe: Quite a compliment! Oh, he is not ( mechanism covers all level of awards and courses. listening! Then finally, the scheme needs to be supported, but M r Rimington: We have progressed many payments when we are talking such large sums of money being put per week, per month, through the Treasury. My own forward by this Government on behalf of the people of the department - 1 am not volunteering their services - have Isle of Man, I wonder whether it would benefit the 28,000 payments per week. There is the ability within our department to actually have this scheme put onto a statutory own Government structure to process payments, to process basis in order to give greater level of security for the powers money, to handle money, to devise what I would think authorised under the department’s scheme, sir. would be a fairly simple scheme. Now, if we are finding difficulties with that in our own confines, then surely we The President: Hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell. are an island which is a financial services island. There is a wealth of knowledge and expertise, maybe not in student Mr Cannell: Yes, just a very brief point, you will be loans but in general financial terms outside of government pleased to hear! I know it is such a rare thing, but the Surely, the resources of the Isle of Man, if there was a repeated plea to the hon. Minister for Education that, when political will, could pull together a fairly simple student considering levels of income for offering grants and support loan scheme and the work would not have to be ongoing of any sort, the net figure of a family’s income be taken this time in October and ongoing in a year’s time. If we rather than a gross figure, because the two are often had the will we could get that loan scheme up and running, considerably different, and the fact that you have a gross I believe, fairly shortly. figure which limits you on a grant for education, or indeed any of the other government benefits, does not necessarily The President: Hon. member for Middle, Mr North. ^ mean that you are anywhere near that as an income, when everything else has been deducted. That is not to say, of Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to course, that every family expense should be automatically congratulate the minister and his department on their taken down to the net figure, but there are certain statutory enlightened viewpoint. (Mr Quine: Hear, hear.) Some of payments which often very considerably take off a lot of the points that are now being brought forward in this money from a family which, if the net figure was the gross student award have been talked about for many years. For figure, would be well inside the limits of an income from instance, we have a general shortage of teachers at the the schemes. moment, but it is not so long ago the department would not even recognise scientific degrees to have then fees paid The President: Hon. member for Rushen, Mr for a postgraduate teaching degree. We now have an Rimington. enlightened view, Mr President, and I think the department is to be congratulated because we need teachers in future, Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. Just to and it is not so long ago where the department would not reiterate some of the concerns that have been mentioned even pay the fees for students with a scientific degree or before, obviously I welcome the scheme as a whole, which an arts degree unless it was a sort of 1.1 or a 2.1. Teachers is very positive, as predicted. It is just the question of loans are a vocation and we should make sure that the Department and the fact that we have come to this point today and we of Education makes sure that they continue this policy. It are not any further forward than we were when the issue is excellent, Mr President, and I congratulate the minister.

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The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mr the department has invested something in the region of Braidwood. £40 million into our students’ futures, so I think that gives you the scope of what the department are trying to do and Mr Braidwood: Thank you, Mr President. I will be adjust and be flexible with the scheme and take on board supporting the Minister for Education, because I believe people’s viewpoints and currently the review that the hon. our students are very fortunate compared to their minister has put before us which has caused the scheme to counterparts in the UK. The minister has already mentioned be further uprated and brought not only in line with what the total tuition fees are paid by the Department of the cash-in-hand situation would be in the UK with a Education - £ 1,050 in the UK the student has to pay. There student loan but projected further on than that. is also an obligation on parents to help in the maintenance It has been pointed out that the other thing to remember of their children when they go to university, and in answer in all of this is that it is a grant scheme that we are talking to the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell, the about. This is free money to help our children, and that is contribution to the maintenance grant is based on net one thing that is very important, unlike the UK student income, so the net income of parents has to be round about loan scheme which has to be paid back and it does actually £32,000 before they would pay the full grant. So I honestly have an element which is means-tested whithin itself, so it believe, that our students do extremely well. is not always a bed of roses as you would like to believe it. I am certainly grateful to the hon. colleague directly Mr Cannell: A full grant would start a lot lower than behind me, Mrs Crowe, for her comments on the loan that. problems that students can find themselves in. This is our jewel in the crown scheme, really, which I Mr Braidwood: But it annoys me when there was an think very few other countries could match proportionately article in the paper about a student who was complaining per population. It is a crucial element, a comer stone in that she could not get a loan, but she had not looked at assisting our students on their chosen lifepath and career. what she does get from the Department of Education in The scheme pays out full on all fees for all students, and the Isle of Man, with the maintenance grant and the tuition maybe that will help the hon. member for Peel in her fees paid. I know it has already been mentioned in this concerns (Mrs Hannan interjecting) because fees can be hon. Court, but a student can obtain an overdraft facility very, very expensive in themselves. Well, 20 years in the from the bank at no interest charge (Mrs Crowe: Yes.) health service and I suppose I am stupid, hon. member for and this can be increased over three years to, I think, Peel (Mrs Hannan interjecting) but the point is that the £1,500, which will help them. fees can be as expensive as maybe £14,000 a year. That is I think our students do extremely well and the not an insubstantial amount of help and that is what the Department of Education has to be congratulated on department aims to do. bringing this forward today. There are also variations to the scheme and flexibilities built into it, and I am thankful for the hon. member for Members: Hear, hear. West Douglas’s comments with regard to that. In answer to his question - and I am sure the minister will correct me The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Crowe. otherwise - 1 think the appeal mechanism does cover most of the areas of his concern there and certainly an appeal to Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. Again I support ministerial level, so in that respect that is one of the other the scheme. I think it is a very good scheme and I think it elements that is excellent - the actual appeal mechanism shows the proper investment in our younger people and which students and other parents can apply to and actually those who are taking further education. go through, and they will find that it is a very fair The only comment I would like the minister to mention assessment and they will get a very fair assistance and is, in certain situations the people fail to complete the hearing in those appeal situations. course, and I think there is an eliment where the use of Those are the main points I would like to say. In the grants may be reclaimed, but what I am asking for really figures I quoted we helped, over the past five years, not is, is there some discretion as to being lenient in situations only that huge investment but there is something like 6,000 where there might be some hardship there? students helped in that time and a considerable amount hopefully this year. So without picking off too many of The President: Hon. member for Douglas North, Mr the comments I think I have helped to answer most of them Henderson. in that rounding up. Just to reiterate, though, we need to be careful, when Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. It has been we are trying to progress a student loan scheme which an interesting debate so far. It is one I thought would attract will cause our children to have some sort of payback some comment and so on, but maybe, with the scheme situation at the end somewhere, that the Treasury may not being as good as it is, not the extent of views that we have stand a parallel system running together where we have had expressed. But nonetheless I am pleased that they have got a student loan scheme running of some description been expressed and I, certainly as the chairman of the and then we are also offering a grant assistance scheme as scheme, have to rise to give this its fullest support. I am well. It may not marry up too well, so we want to be careful very pleased to be associated with such an excellent how we manage this. I would recommend the scheme as it scheme. For members’ interest, in the last five years alone is to this hon. Court, and long may it continue.

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The President: Minister to reply. in paragraph 20. We believe there is sufficient flexibility within that to deal with most situations in practice. Of ( Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President, and can I thank course, when we talk about mandatory awards, whereas hon. members for their very welcome and very broad the scheme perhaps does not specify mandatory awards, support. Picking up on one or two points without wishing by definition mandatory - you either get an award or you to be repetitive, the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, do not in terms of qualifying for an award as a student or a raised concern about middle income groups and drew certain course being eligible for a mandatory award. The attention to the fact that of course not everybody is on a criteria are clear, they are factual, and either one applies grant, never mind on a full grant, and of course members or one does not and therefore the necessity for appeals is will recall that last year we gave some attention to this by less in that situation are less in that situation than it is in broadening the bandings for contribution of parental the case of discretionary awards. By definition discretion income so as to increase grants substantially for those opens up to questions of interpretation and so on. But middle groups. Those at the lower end who get the full certainly we will continue to look at that. A further point grant - there was generally no problem and little complaint. he made was, why not put this scheme into a position of Those at the other extreme where parental income is such being made under statutory power rather than coming along that the full support is there from the family - again little to Tynwald for a Tynwald approved scheme? Of course, complaint. It is these middle groups, and last year we went the answer is that most likely next year it will indeed made a long way to addressing that concern. However, the on a statutory basis, because the current Education Act concern does remain and of course we would always keep quite specifically has enabling power for the drawing up this under review, but I would draw attention to page 17, of regulations governing the making of awards, so this which clearly indicates that it is the bandings; if one looks indeed may be the very last time the department will be at the table in paragraph 6.1 - that is not gross income but coming with the award scheme in this particular form. net income after certain defined allowances are made Mr Cannell’s point, the hon. member for Onchan, between £16,512 and £31,000 net family income - at least advocating net figures - well, I hope I have illustrated that some grant is payable and I think that is a very significant there is a substantial element of net income taken into figure. It is only once net income, not gross, rises above account, but we have to be careful so as to get consistency £31,000 that grant assistance fails to be paid, and of course amongst students, because if you write everything off from about half of our students come into the category of either gross income you have entirely different situations, and not claiming for the grant or not qualifying because parental questions of fairness and consistency come in. That is the income is high. I accept that there can be difficulties in accessing parental income for these groups if there is trouble with going to a pure net income situation. reluctance on the part of parents to contribute and carry I agree with the hon. member for Rushen, Mr out their duties. Some parents actually argue, ‘Well, why Rimington, that, generous as our support now is, should we be responsible? These are individuals, they are particularly in relation to other parts of the British Isles, of an age of majority and they are on their own,’ which the actual practical costs of living during a 32-week term introduces the argument for additional sources of funding. can be substantial, and while it is adequate, the National Of course, that is why I said in my introduction that we Union of Students, for example, would maintain that there continue to look in parallel at a loan system but, as the is still a substantial living expense shortfall and they have hon. member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe, rightly points out, a quoted figures of £5,000-plus as being the minimum that note of caution as to the consequences of going too far a student should be expected to live on. All I can say is, down that route when students, after three or four years of the independent review we had done by an external assessor study, end up with huge mountains of debt, £12,000 plus. experienced in these matters indicated to us that the grant I want to avoid that situation for our students and give the should go up to a figure of £4,020 from the then £3,218. emphasis to, albeit means-testing, a system of grant We are satisfied that this, if not completely at least to a ( support, but there is still a case for looking at a large degree, has addressed the complaint. It certainly supplemental system and we are, as I say, in discussion existed about shortfall and support, and I believe we have with Treasury over some of the detail and the administrative bridged that particular complaint to a large extent. aspects of a loan. The hon. minister, Mr North, I thank for his support So it is not quite true, as hon. member Mr Rimington and for pointing out the way that historically in recent years suggested, we are no further forward after six months; there the categories of students open to funding has been is some discussion going on and the matter is being extended, and there are people being supported now who examined by Treasury officers at the moment, but I do perhaps quite recently were not being supported. want to emphasise to the Court, they need not to get too The hon. member of Council, Mr Crowe, asks about worked up in favour of a loan scheme. At best I see it as the situation of failure to complete a course, and supplementing what is rightly available by our choice for unfortuanately this situation does arise from time to time our students as an alternative to going for parental support for a variety of reasons. In making a student award there is or indeed the generous bank support that hon. member Mr a signed undertaking given by the student and parents that, Braidwood referred to quite correctly, that there are very in the event of failure to complete the course or to complete generous overdraft facilities at zero per cent interest a year, the department may reclaim the fees, and rightly available nowadays. so; it is taxpayers’ money we are talking about. But I would Now the hon. member for Douglas West, Mr Shimmin, stress that the department does look sympathetically at the asks for some clarity on the appeals mechanism as outlined reasons for failure to complete a course. It might be health

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reasons, there may be other reasons and the short answer In December of 1999 Tynwald resolved that the Council is, yes, considerable discretion is exercised; quite often of Ministers appoint a commission under the chairmanship face to face discussion does take place; quite often, if it is of a person with legal qualifications who did not practice a question of progressing or not progressing, the actual and had not practised in the Island to (a) investigate and fees will be turned into a convertable loan so that if the report on the regulatory and disciplinary procedures which course is completed successfully - a student might have apply to those practising law in the Island, and (b) advise been failed for a particular reason - as long as the course on whether and with what frequency there should be a was completed, the loan would not be called in, for regular review of the law and practice relating to the example. In the event of requirement to repay, again provision of legal services in the Island. We sought advice discretion is used over the period of time in which through the Home Office from the Lord Chancellor’s repayment takes place having regard to the ex-student’s Office on possible chairmen, and this took rather longer income at the time. So we do look at these matters. than we had intended but the commission was appointed I thank Mr Braidwood for his contribution and Mr by the Council of Ministers in June of last year under the Henderson for bringing forward some of the statistics and distinguished chairmanship of Sir David Calcott. The rest the figures which, I think, do highlight the considerable of the commissioners were local: Mrs E Christian, Mrs A way in which this Court and the Isle of Man chooses to Craine, both justices of the peace, and Mr Bernard Moffatt, support its students. He quite rightly referred to all this as the local trade union official. ‘investing in students’ future’ and that is exactly what we The commission produced their report to the Council are doing: it is an investment of considerable sums of of Ministers towards the end of January, too late money which do, in time, benefit the Island. They certainly unfortunately for inclusion on the February Tynwald order benefit the student. There is no question of restricting paper and today, at the first available opportunity, we have unduly his or her access to higher education and it is their report before Tynwald. I take this opportunity of certainly a scheme, I think, we can all take great pride in. thanking the commission for their work in putting together I beg to move, sir. a concise and constructive document. The report sets out the process adopted by the The President: The motion, hon. members is that the commission and lists those who submitted written and/or oral evidence. The report concentrates particularly on the Student Award Scheme 2001 be approved. Those in favour please say aye; those against, no. The ayes have it. The Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal and suggests a number of proposals for modernising and making the tribunal more ayes have it. effective. The tribunal is, of course, appointed under statute Hon. members, I think it is an appropriate time in which and operates under statute. To implement the to have a short adjournment. We will recommence at 4.45 recommendations of the commission will therefore require p.m. Thank you, hon. members. new legislation, and this will need to be drafted and there The Court adjourned at 4.25 p.m. will need to be consultation on it. The main proposals made by the commission are to change the membership of the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal, to reduce the proportion of legal professionals Announcement of Royal Assent on the tribunal so that it can be more readily seen as impartial and to give the tribunal and its business a higher The President: Hon. members, I have to announce that public profile through meeting in public and making public Royal Assent has been given to the Adoption (Amendment) announcements about their findings. These are significant Act 2001, the Criminal Justice Act 2001, Matrimonial changes and we will want to give those affected an Proceedings Act 2001, the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act opportunity of commenting on what has been 2001 and the Residence Act 2001. recommended. What the Council of Ministers is therefore proposing is to provide an opportunity for interested parties to offer Legal Services Commission - Report views on the commission’s report and by interested parties Received - Implementation of - 1 mean those who were witnesses and the deemsters and Recommendations - Motion Carried the Law Society, the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal itself and the Financial Supervision Commission. Having The President: Hon. members, we have reached item received those views and given consideration to them, we 28 on the order paper and I call on the Chief Minister to will prepare new legislation based on the commission’s move. report. This legislation will come forward for further consideration and ultimately for introduction into the Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: branches, and we would expect the Bill to feature in next year’s legislative programme, so at this stage and subject That the Report of the Legal Services Commission to any representations which the Council of Ministers feel 2000 be received and the Council of Ministers be requested, should be taken into account, we would expect the report following consultation, to prepare legislative changes to before the Court today to be the blue-print for that give effect to the recommendations in the report. legislation.

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There are two other unrelated matters dealt with by the Chief Minister. There is a reference, I think an expression commission: one is the frequency at which there should of regret in a way, conveyed in the report that there was be regular reviews of the law and practice relating to the such a limited response to it; one is left reading the report provision of legal services on the Island. This was a part thinking they were sorry they did not get a broader response of the commission’s remit and they have recommended a to their remit, but if you think back to what happened with frequency of no more than 10 years. We are happy to take this, it is not surprising. that on board. I believe there are three reasons why there was a limited Finally the commission has said, of legal aid, that, and response. Firstly, of course, the motion which was moved I quote, ‘Although not within our remit, concerns we have by Mr Speaker, hon. member for Michael at that time, was heard about availability of legal aid and the quality of amended, and if hon. members will look at the original delivery of legal aid services have led, us to recommend motion and the amendment you will see that it was that there be an independent review into the matter. We truncated to restrict the exercise and there is no doubt that take note of what the commission has said and what we this is one reason why there was perhaps not such a broader are doing in relation to this recommendation is consulting response to it as the commission had wished for. further with those with a particular involvement with the The second matter is another matter which was raised provision of legal aid to establish how general the view is in this hon. Court, sir, and that was the matter of immunity that there should be a review and whether there are from action and we tried - 1 tried, others tried - to get some particular aspects of legal aid which should be reviewed. clarity into the thinking on that so as the public could be We will arrive at a conclusion on how to respond to the provided with some reassurance. What we got - at least commission’s recommendations at the end of this further what I got eventually - was a letter dated 3rd August 2000 consultation. which was from the Legal Services Commission itself We are therefore proposing to take forward all the which said that the position of immunity for witnesses commission’s recommendations subject, of course, to more giving evidence, to take the commission, is that any witness ' detailed examination in the light of comments received. I sued for defamation would have the common law defence therefore beg to move the motion standing in my name at of qualified privilege. In other words, yes, you could be number 28 on our agenda today, sir. sued and you could try to get off by using the common law defence. Now, that provided a great deal of comfort to The President: Hon. member Mr Henderson. the man in the street to come forward and give evidence to the commission, so that is the second point which I think Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to explains why there was such a limited response. second and reserve my remarks. The third item, of course, is the publicity. There was virtually no publicity to this. It reached a point where I did The President: Hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. a press release myself to try and get some publicity to it. I spoke to the secretary to the commission to try to get more Mr Quine: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I welcome publicity for it. Coincidentally, I bumped into a member the report, sir, and I am generally happy with the of the commission one day and the same issue was raised conclusions which the commission has reached. I think it by the member, disappointed there had been such limited is also nice to pick up a report which covers so much ground publicity on this, so I do not think we should be surprised in so few words; that is something that we do not normally that there was a limited response to this exercise. indulge ourselves in - and yes, I am probably the worst Turning to the recommendations, as I say I am broadly offender - but it is nice to pick up a report that is quite happy - indeed I am very happy - with most of the snappy in getting its message across. recommendations. According to my reckoning, I think they I think the issues which are dealt with in this report are have supported all but one of the issues which I put to the not new to us; in fact, I raised most of those when I appeared commission in both my written evidence and my oral before the previous commission, and I will revert to that a evidence, so I can hardly be dissatisfied with that response, little later, and myself and others have raised a number of but what I am sorry about is that these issues, which the these issues which we now have a recommendation on commission have now made a very positive response to, going back for several years, so it is perhaps timely to are issues which have been raised over several years in have the commission look at them and make a more this hon. Court and elsewhere, and it has taken this length positive recommendation. of time. The other parallel issue which I think is interesting But I think the current exercise came into focus at the here is the matter of whether or not the procedures currently end of 1999, in November 1999, hon. members will in use for the ADT and other aspects of the regulation are recollect, in another place I put down a series of five in breach of regulation 6. The commission concludes that questions on the same question sheet, questioning certain they may be, and all I would say there is, of course, that practices of the Law Society, for which I was immediately the same parallel that I drew when I suggested that to this labelled in the next edition of the Independent as being a Court and another place - we have in the last six months ‘tin-pot politician’ (Several Members: Hear, hear.) put through legislation carrying and using the same (Laughter) - so I hope he chokes on it when he reads this principles and consequently, as I raised at the time we were commission report! (Laughter) dealing with the legislation I will mention now, there must We then had the actual motion itself in December 1999 be a question mark over those provisions as well, and they and it is from that that I would make my first point to the have gone into new legislation.

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One point which I did raise with them and which going to lose sight of a number of these recommendations. remains unclear is the position in respect of advocates If this hon. Court approves a report, then the least I would engaging in investment business incidental to their legal expect is for all those matters to be reported back on, and practice. I am not quite sure what position the commission I believe that is not the case in respect of the earlier report. is adopting in this respect. In paragraph 4.3 they make a Mr President, I welcome this report. I would welcome statement as to what the position is and then it is left there, clarification on, I think there are, three issues in particular and then in 8.5, they make a proposition or suggestion that which I invited the Chief Minister to give me some all legal practitioners should be regulated under agreement clarification on, and I look forward to getting not just the - that is, an agreement with the FSC as exists for advocates, consultation done but getting some legislation before us I presume - or all lawyers be directly licensed, so this is so we can do something positive and constructive, although one very important issue which is left in the air. I cannot I note what the Chief Minister says and I suppose that is see a positive recommendation in respect of that matter the reality of the situation, that it is next year’s programme and my recommendation is quite clear - 1 have said it before that we are talking of at this late stage. Thank you, sir. - and that is that all lawyers individually should be licensed by the FSC. The President: The hon. member for Douglas East, Two other matters which I raised in my written evidence Mrs Cannell. and raised in the oral evidence: the first one is the matter of self-regulation and I put it to the commission that I felt Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I think it is an that self-regulation is not a tenable philosophy or principle excellent report which is before us today and would concur upon which we could, in the Isle of Man setting, apply to with many of the comments made by the previous speaker. the regulation of the law, our legal practitioners. They have, There have been a number of us on occasions throughout I think, gone some way to address that because the the last 472 years who have raised questions in respect of procedures which they are now recommending in terms legal services and in particular, legal aid and also in of the ADT brings into it an independent element which I pursuing complaints, particularly if one is looking to pursue think will be beneficial and will, to some extent, address a complaint to the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal and this question of conflict of interest, but hon. members will there have been, I have to say, a great many members of notice that in the report itself the commission express the the public who have approached myself and others in wish - and I fear it may remain a wish - that the legal respect of these issues over the last 4'/2 years, and so it is fraternity themselves should do something about this with a degree of gratification to receive this report and question. look upon it and see that it has recognised those areas of That, of course, ties in with the second matter which is concern that have been raised by members of the public conflict of interest. Again the wish is expressed that they through their members in this hon. place. will do something about conflict of interest, not an easy Looking through the report, I would like to make some matter given the size of the Isle of Man Law Society, but comment just on one or two items in it, and one is on page nonetheless an important matter. ■10, when it talks, 6.17 about publicity for procedures and Legal aid -1 think we seem to be unclear ourselves about decisions. I can remember only in 1998 a situation when the position in regard to legal aid. Whether or not legal aid we had quite a hefty debate in this hon. place and it was to applies to the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal has been’ do with the desire by the advocates in the Isle of Man to raised in this hon. Court and the advice we got was that have a degree of immunity in terms of prosecution matters, legal aid did not apply to the Advocates Disciplinary and that was referred to a committee for consideration and Tribunal. Well, quite clearly this commission makes a quite there is quite a lengthy piece of Hansard on that particular different statement; they make the statement that it does subject. At that time there was criticism in this hon. place apply and we need to make the position abundantly clear, that if an advocate was found wanting by the Advocates even if that involves some changes to orders. Disciplinary Procedures and committee, the information The final point which I would make on this - and again, in respect of that finding would be illustrated somewhere I made this point to the commission when I gave them my for the public to see, and I distinctly remember that after oral evidence - is, where do we stand in relation to we debated the issue to some length in here promptly, about recommendations made in May 1990? In the earlier half an hour later, a form giving us notification of one commission report on page 17 there is a total, I think, of particular advocate who had been found wanting in several some 11 recommendations, and so far as I can check at different matters suddenly appeared on an information least four of those recommendations have not been pillar within the auspices of government offices, from the actioned. It may be, of course, that they had been public highway, and it was there for the best part of a week considered and they have been rejected and there may be before it was removed. It was greeted somewhat cynically good reasons why they were rejected but, so far as I can by members of the public and others in this hon. place find out on my inquiry, there are possibly four of those because it was the first time that we had seen anything to recommendations that remain somewhere in limbo. I do inform the public that an advocate or more had been found not know whether the Chief Minister can provide a wanting following complaints, but that was the only one response to that latter one but I think it is a matter we do that I ever witnessed being put in a public place for the need to have a reply on, because there is little point in people to see, although it had been agreed in previous proceeding with these commissions, valuable as they are, reports that such publicity would be afforded in such at considerable expense if at the end of the day we are circumstances.

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Looking at page 10 when dealing with this, it talks about It is a good report. What I would ask, though, in terms information for the public and it says that there has been of the motion that is on the agenda - it does say that an effort by the Office of Fair Trading and the Isle of Man following consultation that the Council of Ministers Law Society to disseminate information in the form of prepare legislative changes. Now, the hon. Chief Minister leaflets. There had been disagreement with the Advocates has said that it is hoped that such legislative changes will Disciplinary Tribunal over the contents of the leaflets so be programmed for 2002 following comment on the they are not yet generally available to the public. This was consultation process. I worry a little bit about this because back when the report was published, which was January obviously, when you get such a fundamental report such 2001, so I take my hat off to the Office of Fair Trading for as this, it is going to impact upon the legal services currently today producing for us (A Member: Hear, hear) some in the Isle of Man, and it is not unreasonable to imagine leaflets that will be going out to the public in terms of that those involved in this particular industry will want to information. They certainly seem to have jumped through comment on the contents of the commission’s report, but I the hoop since January to try and get something on paper sincerely hope that the recommendations contained within for members of the public. But I would ask that any future the report will not be watered down to the degree where literature is made a little bit more perhaps on the visual they will not be as effective as they could be if they are appearance and the ability for members of the public to be maintained as recommended. I dare say that the legal able to read, because the typeface is extremely small - this profession have probably already submitted comments on is only a small point but very important; if the public are this particular report and I wonder if, in replying, the hon. to not only be able to obtain this information, they ought Chief Minister could tell us when the consultation process to also be able to easily read the information contained will begin and when it will finish and whether or not hon. within it, so I think the print needs to be much larger than members will have any kind of opportunity to also be able it is currently and if it is going to stay at this size, then to comment, or to be notified of what the overall analysis there is a lot of excess paper here where the typeface could of the consultation process has brought in before legislation have been made bigger and more crystal clear, because in is prepared and comes forward. If we are going to consult, this particular observation on page 10 it does say, ‘We I believe we should consult, but I believe it should be open recommend that clear public information is produced’ and and I believe that hon. members of this particular place I would suggest it is not as clear as it could be, although I should also be privy to what that throws up and what it welcome the efforts that have been made today. brings forward but I welcome it. Thank you. Turning to the issue of legal aid, indeed the previous speaker was correct that during questions in this place and The President: The hon. member for Rushen, Mrs another, it was asked whether or not a person could claim, or be qualified to claim, an application for legal aid to Crowe. pursue a complaint against an advocate to the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal and we were informed and it is in Mrs Crowe: Thank you, Mr President. Perhaps I could Hansard, that this is not the case, that legal aid is not clarify a couple of the points made by the previous speaker, available, and yet the commission have acknowledged the the hon. member for East Douglas. The matter of displaying fact that yes, it is available. But then of course they go on judgments for when there is a judgment made by the further than that because they talk about being able to award Disciplinary Committee does follow a set procedure. They compensation and costs, et cetera, on both sides I would are clearly displayed in government offices and the Office assume, bearing in mind that you could have spurious of Fair Trading and indeed we will explain to anyone that complaints which could waste a lot of time and not be enquires what any particular judgment is. Also, as a proven. But they did say, in terms of the legal aid, although comment was made about the leaflets, which indeed I have it was not within their original remit, they did consider it circulated to members today but are in the public domain and they said that it was in need of urgent investigation. already, I do recognise the point that the print is small. When the hon. Chief Minister moved the report he said These are only guidelines and we do have the technology that it is in need of independent investigation and in the office to print these off in large print for anyone consideration but I have underlined the word ‘urgent’ who so desires, but anyone that does have a problem we because that is what they have stated in the commission’s can accommodate them in that way. It is not a case that report, ‘urgent investigation’, and that is in 10.2 on page they were just published because this report was coming 14. up; in fact, they were actually published over eight months The summary of recommendations, I believe, is ago but we had to withdraw them because of a problem excellent, if they are to be followed through. They also that was highlighted by the Chairman of the Advocates suggest compensation and that the Advocates Disciplinary Disciplinary Committee at that time, which was much to Tribunal’s remit should be widened to enable them to the regret of the Office of Fair Trading and the Isle of Man consider complaints of negligence and delay and to award Law Society. However, that was just to clarify the points compensation up to £20,000. Now, that is quite a bold made by the previous speaker. recommendation to make but indeed a welcome one, I What I would like to comment on is what I consider to believe. be an error in the report, and I refer to paragraph 7 on page In terms of legal aid, what is paramount here is that if it 11, which states, ‘Several respondents propose that there is to be reviewed, and it must be reviewed, it is done should be appointed a Legal Services Ombudsman or Legal independently as this report was done, and it is also looked Services Commissioner’, and it goes on to say, ‘The Office upon with a degree of urgency. of Fair Trading suggested that the soon to be appointed

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Financial Services Ombudsman might additionally fulfil judgment made or whether it was an omission - was on such a role.’ As the Office of Fair Trading (Amendment) the law of probate and the administration of estates and Bill, which introduces the financial services ombudsman that no comment is made on that, and it was possibly put scheme has just completed its third reading in another place forward that legal practitioners should be able to operate and is about to commence its passage through the Council in that area of the law on the Isle of Man and that the law I must advise hon, members that there was never, never on such matters on the Isle of Man is quite similar to the any intention of our scheme taking on a legal services role law in the UK and is indeed even simpler as they do not and our submission, both written and oral, to the have to take on board tax issues. I just wonder if the Chief commission made this quite clear. Our written submission Minister could put that into his pot for further pointed out the proposed introduction of our scheme and consideration? cited it as an example or a model on which to base a future legal services ombudsman scheme if the Advocates The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply. Disciplinary Tribunal was to be reviewed, and I do not understand how the commission could have construed our Mr Gelling: Yes, thank you, Mr President, and I thank remarks in a way that they have reported, but I am glad to the hon. members, first of all Mr Henderson for seconding have this opportunity to correct the matter for the record. the motion, and Mr Quine, Mrs Crowe, Mrs Cannell and The report contains a number of significant John Rimington for their support. recommendations, and my office is pleased that the I think I would like just to read one small part of the commission has accepted our proposal in recommending recommendation out of the conclusion, and of course it that the revised tribunal will have powers to award says ‘The international and commercial significance of the compensation of up to £20,000 and that its remit is Isle of Man has in recent years developed at such a rapid expanded to cover negligence and delays. I would also pace that the appropriate regulations of the legal profession like to mention the fact that the ADT has already decided have been apt to be left behind. It is important that those to remove the requirement for seven copies of a complaint who practise law here should seek to work within a regime to be submitted; that was something about which the Office which keeps abreast of developments and at the same time of Fair Trading felt very strongly and they have already fully retains public confidence. We believe that if our agreed and do not now require that, I believe, and I applaud recommendations are now implemented this will go a long them for taking such swift action. way towards closing the gap,’ and I think that is the The Office of Fair Trading has previously published summary of what they are saying. It probably is not the advice for consumers experiencing difficulties with legal end and it is not the absolute answer to everything that services and this is actually the latest edition of our leaflets was put forward, but certainly in their opinion it will be a that I have circulated. great help and I think that is reflected in - again I would Further detailed consideration of the other say to the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine - five out of recommendations is required and no doubt the Office of six is not too bad at all. However, I do find - and it has Fair Trading will be consulted as part of the consultation been illustrated to me here as I sit with the report - that the process prior to making the legislative changes necessary hon. member for Ayre was talking about his submission to give effect to the recommendations. and I have not got his submission, and also then the hon. Mr President, I fully support the motion and look Chair of Fair Trading has said, ‘This does not line up with forward to contributing again to the consultation process, what we said’ and I have not got what they said, they are which should provide a more open and consumer-friendly not appendices to this report, so it is a concise report, but mechanism for the handling of legal services complaints. when you have not got those appendices to know what I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the two people said, I do not honestly know, and I have to admit lay members of my board who worked so diligently as that, as to how much of this report has been taken on board. members of the Advocates Disciplinary Tribunal. Thank I can only assume that those knowing what they have said you, Mr President. and those that did contribute supporting the Bill feel that the greater majority has been taken on board. The President: The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Now, I have made a note of the points that have been Rimington. raised, and basically I said quite clearly that we were taking on all the recommendations of the report, so I would say Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. Just a very to the hon. member Mrs Cannell, who hinted at ‘Well, I brief single point that I want to make, which was wonder what will happen at the end, some of these could representation made to me by a member of the legal- be dropped,’ we are saying we are taking on what the profession in respect of registered legal practitioners. Now, commission has said. However, we want to go back to obviously the Chief Minister may not be able to respond those who had given verbal, oral, written evidence to just fully at this moment, but if the comment could go into that check on whether or not these points have been made clear, process of consultation. . .? The situation is now that a because I think that is part of the consultation that we need legal practitioner can operate in terms of conveyancing to do before we bring the legislation forward. However, here in the Island and the law on conveyancing in the Island we know full well the timing is not on our side. We cannot is more complex or slightly more difficult than the law in get the legislation in this particular administrative year so the UK. Now, the question that was raised - and I do not therefore it is going to be next year, but that does not mean know if this was considered by the commission and any we should dawdle and not do anything; we should use that

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time to the good of consulting with those who had made than five other members, the Governor in Council shall submissions and then to get that legislation in front of the also have regard to the need for the commission to include new administration after November. members who are appropriately qualified by experience Now, Mr President, I think again, when I look at this or otherwise to participate in the exercise of the commission report, obviously they kept to the remit and I commission’s functions. take on board that the hon. member said the original motion The present term of appointment for the members of of our now Speaker was amended, but of course that is the commission is due for renewal on 1 st April this year. It exactly what the commission has done: they have strayed is recommended that Brigadier N A Butler, Mr R W a little bit, they went out beyond it a little in one or two Leonard, and Mr B Pover be appointed to the commission. places, but they have basically kept to a narrower remit, In view of the resignation of His Honour Henry Callow, it which in many ways has probably brought it back rather is further recommended that Mr N Cordwell be appointed more quickly than it might have done if it had been a to the commission for the first time. If approved by this broader one. So I think we are getting action in the places Court the appointments will be for a term of three years. Mr President, CVs of those nominated have been where certainly concern was expressed and I think, after circulated to all members so that I do not therefore propose our consultation with those who have made submissions, to repeat that information. However, I would like to place we will be able to come forward, or someone will, with on record our appreciation of the work of His Honour legislation to the next administration that will put an awful Henry Callow and also that of Mr Peter Sayer, who is lot of this into legislation and, as they say it will go a long similarly retiring from membership of the commission and way to closing the gap. we thank them for their invaluable service. So on the assurance that I have taken note of the points I hereby recommend that those persons nominated by raised from the hon. member Mr Rimington from Rushen, the Governor in Council be appointed as members of the on that particular point and these will be put forward for Communications Commission and I beg to move the that consultation period, and thanking the hon. members motion standing in my name at item number 29, Mr that have spoken and encouraging other members to President. support this particular motion, Mr President, I would like to move that the report of the Legal Services Commission The President: The hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell. 2000 be received and the Council of Ministers be requested, following consultation, to prepare legislative changes to Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to second the give effect to the recommendations in the report, sir resolution and just very briefly would like to add my sincere appreciation of the efforts and hard work put in by both The President: Hon. members, the motion before you His Honour Henry Callow and by Peter Sayer now for a is printed at 28 on your order paper. Will those in favour number of years. The commission has been and is still please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes going through a period of transition and change. The have it. workload has increased enormously over the last two or three years and these two gentlemen have done a sterling job in working together with the rest of the commission to farther the policies of Tynwald. Communications Commission I would just point out, though, as the hon. Chief Minister - Members Appointed has said, the appointment to the membership of the Communications Commission shall not be not less than The President: Item 29, the Chief Minister to move. three and not more than five. We have recommended four at this stage, leaving an option for one more in the future, Mr Gelling: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: bearing in mind that the consultation process on the future of not only the telecommunications regulatory regime on That Tynwald approves the appointment of the the Island but also the future structure of the following persons as members of the Communications Communications Commission and its responsibilities itself Commission for a period of three years commencing on are currently under review as a result of this consultation the 1st April 2001: Brigadier N A Butler CBE, Mr R W process which is going on and we thought it appropriate to Leonard, Mr B Rover, Mr N Cordwell. leave one potential vacancy on the Communications Commission should anything radical be recommended as By virtue of the Communications Commission Order a result of the consultation process. So it has left us with of 1989 the membership of the Communications some flexibility, but I would urge support for the four Commission is appointed by the Governor in Council names put forward as I am sure they will do an extremely subject to the approval of Tynwald. It is a requirement of goodjob. the order that the Governor in Council shall have regard to the needs for the commission to include the Minister for The President: Hon. members, the motion before you Home Affairs, who shall be chairman of the commission. is printed at item 29 on the order paper. Those in favour In appointing members of the commission, which under please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes the order should consist of not less than three and not more have it.

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Economic Initiatives - Second Report of the would be huge. It would be a significant legal issue to be Standing Committee Received addressed and one on which we could seek a judicial review. The President: We turn then to item 30 and I call on We also considered the EU draft directive on savings, the Chairman of the Standing Committee of Economic which again raises further issues concerning protocol 3. If Initiatives, Mr Crowe, member of Council, to move. the UK failed to resist the adoption of provisions of the directive, which, if it was implemented, would conflict Mr Crowe: Mr President, I beg to move: with protocol 3, this would also be subject to judicial review. The UK has obligations to protect the best interests That the Second Report of the Standing Committee of the Island as well as their own interests and it is essential on Economic Initiatives for 2000-2001 on the Legal that they do not lose sight of this. The committee believes Context of Contemporary Economic Initiatives be received that the significant variation in the legal context of the and its recommendation approved. current initiatives taken by various international bodies and the variation in the legal relationship between the Isle of The current reviews being taken by the OECD, the Man and these bodies could well affect the basis of the United Nations, the EU and others are and will remain initiatives and even the way in which they are conducted. high profile issues, and because of this the committee This led us to the conclusion that these are considerations undertook an exercise to examine the legal context of these which could perhaps play a more central role in reviews. Professor Bates was particularly helpful with the government’s strategic thinking when responding to such research and I would like to record our thanks to StJohn initiatives. Bates for his work and his efforts. With this in mind we are recommending that As we state in our report, many of these international government, at an appropriate time, take independent bodies operate within legal parameters as well as political specialist legal advice on the international law and parameters, but these vary substantially in nature and community law issues raised in our report. We make this substance. For instance, the UN and OECD have a recommendation not as a criticism of the government but competence determined by the treaties establishing each in support of what they are trying to achieve. We recognise organisation. The competence of the EU is also limited by the very valuable work that government is taking to ward treaty, but it does have a capacity to legislate. Other off the international pressures that have become part of organisations such as the Financial Action Task Force G7 our way of life and the ongoing discussions that are taking and G8 have a looser framework. Not only do we have place. substantial variations in the way different bodies act, but If the Island does become involved in a legal dispute in their legal relationship with the Isle of Man is similarly order to protect its economic base and constitutional varied and in some cases obscure. If we take the situation position, it is important that we be fully aware of how much regarding the OECD, the legal competence of the OECD manoeuvrability we have. In any dispute in which politics to conduct the harmful tax competition initiative has been and economic factors are at the forefront, those countries raised by the government with the Home Office and the with more political or economic power and influence would very helpful information provided by the learned Attorney- tend to win. However, in a legal dispute the power would General is appended to this report. be with the country which had the best legal argument. Mr In the report we refer to the highly selective way in President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. which the OECD identified jurisdictions engaged in harmful tax competition and then changed the ground rules The President: The hon. member for Ramsey, Mr during the exercise. In addition its member states, who Singer. have a direct interest, will act as prosecution, judge and jury in the matter, a procedure which flies in the face of Mr Singer: Mr President, I beg to second and reserve international human rights standards. my remarks. We also considered the EU code of conduct for business taxation and in particular the ECOFIN conclusions. Neither The President: The hon. member for Douglas East, the ECOFIN conclusions nor the code of conduct have Mrs Cannell. any community or any other legal basis. It is a political agreement and not legally binding. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. Just very briefly - it is in terms of what the hon. mover of the report The UK, as a member of the EU, has given a said towards the end of his contribution; he said, ‘the commitment to the code of conduct, but of concern to us recommendation that we are making.’ Now, as far as I am is that the UK has also agreed that the principles within aware there is only just the one recommendation that is the code be applied to the Isle of Man subject to the usual being made in this particular report, and that is that the qualification that it be done within the framework of the government take independent specialist legal advice on Isle of Man UK constitutional arrangements. However, as the international law and community law issues raised we all know by virtue of protocol 3, taxation is not an within this particular report. The hon. mover said that they element of community legal obligations which extend to are recommending that that be done at an appropriate time. the Isle of Man. If the UK ever thought the taxation should I would merely ask him, when does he feel it will be be, then the implications for protocol 3 and for this Island appropriate to actually engage such services?

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Following on from that, of course, the hon. mover spoke behind the various international initiatives on tax, with about potential conflicts at some point in the future and which we have been dealing, have the legal authority to the importance of us being in a position where we know do what they are doing and what they are proposing to do. where we stand in legal terms. I would have thought that This is a question which I can assure all hon. members has possibly now is the appropriate time to engage such legal exercised our minds as well and it is something which has expert independent advice here, because I think it is very been kept very much under review. important that the Isle of Man, we as a nation, know now Now, I think it is useful, to have set down in this report where we stand should any possible scenario develop in the general discussion and the examples quoted. The report the future in respect of this issue, but I just wondered does not add to what we already know, but the committee whether or not the hon. mover felt when was going to be should be thanked for setting out the issues so clearly. the appropriate time. Is he suggesting that we wait until The report looks at the three international tax initiatives something happens and then engage somebody or is he individually and I have no argument with what is there suggesting that we should be doing it now so that we know and I have no argument with the principle that we should where we stand before anything happens, if it ever were to have available, when we need it, the best possible advice happen. Thank you. on any legal questions that arise. We have, of course, the services of, as already has been suggested, the Attorney- The President: The hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan. General’s Chambers and we have access to our colleagues in Jersey and Guernsey and, to a lesser extent in Gibraltar Mrs Hannan: Thank you, Eaghtyrane. I am a little and other offshore centres, to their legal advisers. This is surprised by this report, because I would have thought that not exclusively an Isle of Man issue. All our fellow this report. . . and reading it I do not find it; maybe the ‘sufferers’, if I can use that word and if it is not too strong mover can clarify the situation for me, because there is a description, have the same legal rights, the same concerns this recommendation which is advising government, that and the same determination to defend their rights. government responding to initiatives. Well, I consider that I would suggest that the problem at this stage is that government has responded to initiatives and I think this there is not anything significant to which we can refer for report could have actually congratulated the government legal opinion. It is only when executive action is taken - on what the government has done, and I am not for argument’s sake, decisions are made - that those government, but the wonderful work that our Attorney- decisions are challengeable, and those decisions which we General, the Chief Secretary and the Chief Executive to might challenge would need to be taken by individual states the Treasury have done over the last three to four years is such as" the United Kingdom, France, United States of absolutely remarkable (Members: Hear, hear.) and I am America and so on. Only when they act can they be saddened that what this report actually says is that we need therefore challenged. independent specialist advice on international law and Now, at present everything is at a level of political community law issues. I would have thought that discussion or political commitment. There are some government has, on this particular issue as on others, dealt thoughts of sanctions by the OECD member countries, but with this absolutely remarkably, the whole of these issues, not in relation to the Isle of Man, because we will not be and these issues are ongoing. There has been a change of on their blacklist. As regards the European Union, there is government in America and now the Government of not at present any suggestion of sanctions attached to their America is saying ‘Hey, hang on, boys, we do not want two initiatives. We are not, therefore, under direct threat, that,’ because if you control the taxation in these countries let alone the subject of direct action. If specific threats that you are trying to get control of, they are bound to emerge or become clearer, we will certainly want to come and try to control our taxation. We want to be able to consider the legal dimension and we will want to do that, do this, this, and this and so on one hand you have got I would suggest, with other jurisdictions and at least the America at one time saying ‘Oh, these little countries, these other Crown dependencies. I would hope very much it will tax havens are doing things and we do not know what they not come to that. We are trying to deal with the situation are doing’ and now they saying, ‘Yes, they are doing, but by negotiation, and if we have to resort to law it will mean we would like to be part of it as well.’ that that negotiation has failed. A legal challenge to a So, yes, it is going to change, but I am concerned about country which takes some sort of sanction against us would the Standing Committee on Economic Initiatives; now, this not be easy. All the countries involved are sophisticated thing has been ongoing and I would have thought that a and will recognise the possibility of legal challenge if they recognition of what government and its officers have done act unlawfully. They will therefore construct their actions is missing in this report and it saddens me. so as to minimise the risk of successful challenge. Any challenge would take time, would be costly and perhaps Members: Hear, hear. be uncertain in its outcome. It is not something to be contemplated lightly and it will need to be practical and The President: The Chief Minister. real and a fundamental importance to the wellbeing of our Island. Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, the second report of I would therefore possibly have to disagree with the the Standing Committee on Economic Initiatives raises an hon. member for East Douglas, Mrs Cannell, but pick up issue which I know has been the cause of concern to on the point made by the mover of the motion that it is one members for some little while - that is, whether those of timing, and I am perfectly content to accept the

Economic Initiatives - Second Report of the Standing Committee Received TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T663 recommendation of the select committee provided that it Procedural is recognised that it will need to choose our moment, choose our issues and indeed choose our partners. Therefore, Mr The President: Hon. members, I am very well aware President, if the chairman of the committee will indeed that we are approaching six o’clock. It appears to me that confirm in his response that he accepts that sort of we have four heavy items still to get through which we flexibility I certainly would be happy to support the motion would hardly achieve, only by sitting very late this evening, standing on the paper. and I am aware that there are at least five members in this hon. Court who have already indicated they wish to attend The President: Can I call on the chairman of the other events. Could I suggest, hon. members, that we take committee to reply? the next item on the order paper and aim to finish at half past six? A Member: Hear, hear. Members: Agreed. Mr Crowe: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank hon. members their comments, in particular Mr Singer for seconding, and would thank also Mrs Cannell for talking about this query about the appropriate time, and again the Lieutenant-Governor - Appointment Chief Minister has mentioned that. I would pick up on the Process - Report of the Standing Committee Chief Minister’s point that it is pointless taking legal advice - Debate Commenced now, at this very point in time, unless, shall we say, the battle is commencing or about to commence, you have to The President: In that case we call upon the Chairman choose the battleground that you are going to fight on but of the Standing Committee on Constitutional Matters, Mr you then have to muster all the ammunition you can to Speaker, to move item 31. protect your position, and I quite agree that we are not standing alone, we are not isolated as yet; others such as The Speaker: Mr President, I would like to emphasise Gibraltar, Jersey and Guernsey are in a similar position, from the start of this debate that this report of the standing so when we get this international advice, this legal specialist committee is on the appointment process of the Lieutenant- advice, it should be done collectively, so I do not have a Governor of the Isle of Man and the report bears no quibble over the timing, I think that is a matter for the reflection whatsoever on the present Lieutenant-Governor government. and Mrs Macfadyen who we have welcomed to the Island As far as Mrs Hannan is concerned, I think Mrs Hannan and who have given a whole-hearted commitment to their and I totally agree with the wonderful work that the duties and responsibilities. The terms of reference of this government has done and I would congratulate them too. report are set out in the introduction of the July 2000 sitting: In a last report I made quite significant emphasis on that Tynwald Court resolved that ‘Regrets that the Crown has and in fact my speech today said, ‘We make this not, on this occasion, appointed as the next Lieutenant- recommendation not as a criticism of the government but Governor a Manx person or person of Manx descent but in support of what they are trying to achieve. We recognise acknowledges that the decision is one for the Crown to the very valuable work the government is taking to ward make and requests the Standing Committee on off the international pressures that have become part of a Constitutional Matters to consider the circumstances way of life and the ongoing discussions that are taking leading to the appointment of the Lieutenant-Governor place.’ I think it is a very interesting report and a very designate not of Manx origin contrary to the express wishes serious report and it does lay out all the issues and clearly of Tynwald and recommend a course of action which would sets them out from a legal point of view, and I would thank be likely to meet those wishes’. the Chief Minister for recognising that. It is a useful The standing committee responded to the resolution by document that you can refer to and I hope that in itself it first setting out the circumstances of the most recent has been of help to the government. appointment of Lieutenant-Governors, and secondly, by Again, I recognise the very valuable work the Attorney- considering the future process of the appointment of General is doing; he must probably go to bed at night Lieutenant-Governors in the context of the changing thinking of the OECD and all these issues! constitutional responsibilities of both a Lieutenant- Mr President, I think I have covered all the points. I Governor and the Isle of Man Government and the developing international interests and responsibilities of would just confirm to the Chief Minister the question of the Isle of Man. timing is down to him. That point is not an issue today; it Hon. members, you will be fully aware that at the present is an issue for the future when the fight gets really serious. the appointment of the Lieutenant-Governor for the Isle Hon. members, I would ask you to support the committee’s of Man is made by the Queen on the recommendation of report and the recommendation. the Home Secretary. So the standing committee first examined the immediate past practice in determining the The President: Hon. members, the motion before you appointment of a Lieutenant-Governor and decided to is printed at item 30 on the order paper. Will those in favour analyse the appointment process for the last two Governors, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Sir Laurence Jones and Sir Timothy Daunt, who were have it. appointed since the Isle of Man Government adopted a

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ministerial system. I consider it sufficiently important to the list and, of course, it ends up that we have Sir Laurence read direct from the report on the appointment process for Jones - no reflection on the appointment, but that was how both Sir Laurence Jones and Sir Timothy Daunt. it was being handled. The line of communication for the appointment of Sir Then we turn to the appointment of Sir Timothy Daunt, Laurence Jones was from the Home Office to the Governor and the appointment process which led to the appointment of the day, Sir Laurence New. The Lieutenant-Governor of Sir Timothy Daunt as Lieutenant-Governor of the Isle consulted the Executive Council through the then Chief of Man was in respect of the communications between the Minister, Sir Miles Walker; it did not go direct to Isle of Man Government and the Home Office, essentially government, it went from Home Office to the residence of the same as the process which had led to the appointment the Lieutenant-Governor. The council received the names of Sir Laurence Jones. The Lieutenant-Governor of the of the six shortlisted candidates, three diplomats, three day consulted the Chief Minister and, through him, the persons with a military background, but there had been no Council of Ministers; they considered the shortlist of previous discussion with the Home Office about the field candidates, again, solely on the basis of the curricula vitae. of applicants, but the then Lieutenant-Governor, in an However, on this occasion the Lieutenant-Governor - that informal discussion with the Chief Minister, indicated that is, Sir Laurence Jones - also convened a round table Sir Laurence Jones was known to him and in his view meeting to which the Chief Minister, the deemsters, the would make a good Governor - the old boy network at its presiding officers and the Chief Secretary were present to best. The names and curriculum vitaes of the shortlisted discuss the shortlisted candidates. The Council of Ministers candidates were before the council for one or two weeks made a formal recommendation to the Home Office. It is but, other than the informal discussion between the not clear from the evidence which we, the committee, Lieutenant-Governor and the Chief Minister, the council receive whether the Lieutenant-Governor transmitted a received no suggestions or advice on the candidates. The recommendation separate from that of the Council of Lieutenant-Governor - that is, Sir Laurence New - also Ministers to the Home Office on the outcome of his round­ undertook informal soundings from presiding officers and table discussion. Again, the Chief Minister had an the deemsters on which the six shortlisted candidates would opportunity in London to meet Sir Timothy Daunt as the be preferred and may have consulted others unknown to preferred or favoured candidate prior to the appointment the Chief Minister. being confirmed and, as with the appointment of Sir So here you have a Lieutenant-Governor in situ who Laurence Jones, it was the impression of the Chief Minister has a look at the list, knows one of the persons on the list, that had he advised the Home Office that he considered a retired air marshal, and ‘Well, yes, he is a jolly good the appointment of the candidate to be inimical to the Isle chap,’ chats to the Chief Minister, the presiding officers of Man, there would have been further consideration of and the deemsters and then, of course, die Chief Minister cannot recall whether the Lieutenant-Governor advised him the appointment. So as with the appointment of Sir of the outcome of these soundings but, having considered Laurence Jones, after the appointment of Sir Timothy, the the short-list candidates, the Executive Council made a Council of Ministers does not appear to have formally recommendation which was sent to the Home Office, and considered any revision of the appointment process. the recommendation was, I understand, Sir Laurence Jones. The appointment process for the present Governor, The Chief Minister did not know whether the Lieutenant- which began in July 1999, substantially changed. There Governor sent a separate recommendation based on his was a new government in London and the Home Office informal soundings, and this is how it goes. Later the Chief determined that the appointment was to be advertised in Minister had the opportunity in London to meet Sir the United Kingdom national press and that a person Laurence Jones as the preferred or favoured candidate prior representing the Isle of Man be invited to be a member of to this appointment being confirmed. The Chief Minister the selection panel. Now, this is a fundamental change. formed the impression that if he had advised the Home The Council of Ministers was able to comment on both Office that the appointment of the chosen or preferred the advertisement and the particulars of the job description, candidate was likely to be inimical to the Isle of Man, there and I think it is important that members consider the would have been further consideration of the appointment. timetable of events: July 1999 - proposals from the Home On completion of the appointment process there was no Office to change the procedure for the appointment; formal evaluation in the Executive Council of the November 1999 - Council of Ministers noted the appointment procedure or suggestion that it might be advertisement and the information for candidates; January changed. The recollection of the then Chief Minister, Sir 2000 - the Chief Secretary wrote to all members of Tynwald Miles, was that he probably suggested to the Home Office inviting them to nominate candidates for the post of that domestic constitutional development suggested that Lieutenant-Governor... there might be greater involvement of the Isle of Man in the appointment procedure in the future. So, as I said earlier, Mr Delaney: My nomination was not accepted. a few moments ago, there seems to be almost a magic circle basis of the old boy network - The Speaker: Later in January, 23rd January, the advertisement with the same text as received by the Mr Delaney: More like a magic roundabout! members of Tynwald was published in the Sunday Times and in The Times', February 2000 - the Council of Ministers, The Speaker: - the existing Governor knew a retiring having received three nominations from members of air marshal, thought he might be a good chap, he was on Tynwald that Deemster Corrin would be an appropriate

Lieutenant-Governor - Appointment Process - Report of the Standing Committee - Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T665 appointment as Lieutenant-Governor, the Council sought be invited for interview by an informal telephone call which and obtained the consent of His Honour Deemster Corrin was not confirmed in writing and certainly the candidate to be nominated by the Council. Now, that is an important is interviewed - and in the opinion of the committee all issue: that, as I understand it, Deemster Corrin, before he candidates should have been informed in advance and in would allow his name to go forward, would wish to be confidence of the outcome of the appointment process, nominated by the Council of Ministers, and on 16th and we, the committee, consider the fact that the February last year Tynwald resolved that ‘Tynwald is of appointment is formally made by the Crown is an the opinion that the future Lieutenant-Governor should inadequate reason in the 21st century for leaving all the preferably be a Manx person or person of Manx descent’ unsuccessful candidates to discover the outcome of the and the Home Office was informed of the Tynwald appointment by public announcement, made at a date resolution and His Honour deemster Corrin formally unknown to them. It is unsatisfactory, and those two words submitted his application. on page 13 were missed. The first meeting of the selection panel consisted of the So, what for the future? We have determined now how Chief Minister, Sir David Omand who is the Permanent this sequence of events, going back over the appointment Secretary to the Home Office, and a Ms Rachel Whittaker, of three Governors, two of which appeared to be on an not a civil servant but a person nominated by the Home informal basis of previous Governor knowing the person Office to be on the panel. The panel looked at the candidates on a short list for the new governorship and informal and the Chief Minister consulted the Council of Ministers discussions with the Council of Ministers, presiding and the presiding officers. officers and the deemsters, to moving on to the procedure In April last year, following his consultation, the Chief for the present Governor where, at least, the Chief Minister Minister advised the Permanent Secretary at the Home of the Isle of Man was invited to join the selection panel Office of the proposed shortlist of four candidates. He was and the job was formally advertised. advised subsequently that the decision had been taken to So the committee felt that the appointment of the limit the shortlist to three. In early May, His Honour Lieutenant-Governor must start from a recognition of the Deemster Corrin was invited in a telephone call to the present status of the Isle of Man as a Crown dependency. The appointment of Governor is a matter for the Crown Home Office for a chat - just a telephone call, to come and not for the Isle of Man Government. However, the down and have a chat on 10th May - he received no written committee recommend that the Isle of Man Government, confirmation of the invitation. On 10th May the three recognising the frailties of some of the aspects of the shortlisted candidates were interviewed by the selection procedure adopted in the immediate past, which I have panel and Sir David Omand, the Permanent Secretary, was just alluded to, should begin to consider with the United left to advise the Home Secretary of the outcome, and this Kingdom Government the appointment procedure for the is important: the selection panel did not sign a form of Lieutenant-Governor now rather than closer to the time recommendation to the Home Secretary but the collective when it is likely to be used. In other words, the committee view of the panel was conveyed by the Permanent Secretary felt that possibly after the general election the negotiations to the Home Secretary who then recommended the air should open with the Home Office to set out formal rules marshal, the present Governor, to the Queen. So the and remit as to how the appointment of the next Governor selection panel sat, as we understand, they interviewed the should take place, and in starting that process the committee three candidates, there was no signing off of their views, recommended that in entering into those discussions, the they left and the Permanent Secretary to the Home Office Isle of Man Government give careful consideration to the then took what he felt was a collective view of the panel. proposals as follows: it would be desirable for the Crown, Then in June last year the Chief Minister was informed by in consultation with the Government and Her Majesty’s the Home Office that a public announcement of the Government in the United Kingdom, to review the role of appointment would be made, and there is a little dispute the Lieutenant-Governor in the context of both the external about how it was made and it was held back in order that and the internal constitutional development of the Isle of His Honour Deemster Corrin was advised in advance. Man. The conclusion of such a review could usefully be So the recent procedure adopted for the present reflected in the letters patent setting out the instructions of Lieutenant-Governor caused considerable dissatisfaction, the Lieutenant-Governor. The present instructions are more which could have been avoided by careful preliminary relevant of the 18th than the 21st century. The letters patent, consideration of the consequences of changing the which you heard at Castle Rushen being read out, were of appointment procedure; in other words, the appointment a bygone era and it is felt strongly by the committee that procedure was changed without setting out any ground things should be completely updated and the review should rules. There should have been a clear protocol of die nature- preferably embrace the constitutional basis for making the and extent of the involvement of the Isle of Man appointment of the Lieutenant-Governor. As I have Government in the process communicated formally in explained, the present appointment is made as an exercise writing, and also candidates selected for interview should of the prerogative which carries with it a mystique which have been informed in the same manner. It appeared to the may lead to the continuation of administrative procedures committee that it was a bit too casual; the Isle of Man was which are inappropriate in the contemporary world. It is invited, no proper ground rules, no clear guidance, no remit, the opinion of the committee that there would be a case and the candidates selected for interview as I have just for placing the appointment on a legislative basis, albeit said, should have been informed in the same manner. It is with a wide discretion granted to the Crown, and for this, not acceptable, in the committee’s view, for a candidate to Gibraltar might serve as a useful model.

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Now the committee noted earlier in the resolution of selection process, that proper consideration will be given Tynwald at its February 2000 sitting, and that was that the to the settled will of Tynwald that the Lieutenant-Governor future Lieutenant-Governors should preferably be Manx should be a Manx person of person of Manx descent, the persons or persons of Manx descent. In a review of a qualifications and qualities required of a person to be process and procedures for the appointment of a considered for appointment and a clear distinction in the Lieutenant-Governor of the Isle of Man, appropriate role of the Lieutenant-Governor as the vice-regal account should be taken of the expressed wishes of the representative and the role of that person as the consular parliament of the Isle of Man. What is the use, hon. representative. The review of the procedure for the members, of us making resolutions, setting out our express appointment of the next Lieutenant-Governor should wishes and then finding that the Home Office appear to commence after the general election in November. take little notice. Finally, may I personally say I hope that never again is It may well be that is not always possible to find a the nominee of the Council of Ministers left in such an suitable person to serve as Lieutenant-Governor from the embarrassing and possibly humiliating position as His relatively small population of the Isle of Man or indeed Honour Jack Corrin found himself. He only allowed his from the Manx diaspora,the wider Manx community name to go forward with the assurance that he had the around the world. However, the committee are firmly of support of the Council of Ministers. the view that at the very least the procedure should provide Hon. members, I believe it is time for a change, it is and be expressed to provide that between candidates of time for a review and I beg to move the motion standing in equal merit preference will be given to those who are Manx my name, that a Report of the Standing Committee on or of Manx descent, and I say the Manx those of us Constitutional Matters on the Appointment Process of the indigenous people are proud of our internal self- Lieutenant-Governor of the Isle of Man be received and government and the independence that we have, and I its recommendations approved. believe personally that it can be enhanced if we have here, as our representative of the Crown, a person who is either The President: The hon. member for Ayre. Manx or of Manx descent. The other view that the committee came to was that Mr Quine: I beg to second and reserve my remarks, restricting it so persons to be considered for appointment sir. as Lieutenant-Governor had to have had distinguished service with the Crown was in this day and age restrictive. The President: Chief Minister. The qualities that were needed in a new role that the Island has in the international world are not always those that are Mr Gelling: Mr President, the recommendations in the found with people who have served the Crown as it was report should indeed cause no concern and, I would envisaged in the past and I will take an example: why suggest, can be supported. There are just two should not a former governor of the Bank of England, not recommendations: the first is in essence that the Isle of in the service of the Crown, be eligible for consideration? Man Government should begin to consider with the United After all, are we not a financial services industry, which is Kingdom Government the appointment procedure for the our primary industry of which we live and of which we Lieutenant-Governor now rather than closer to the time are recognised around the world? I offer that as an example. when it is next likely to be used; and the second says in There are many other people of quality and qualifications entering into those discussions the Isle of Man Government who may not necessarily have spent a lifetime in the service should give careful consideration to the proposals set out of the Crown but could, in the committee’s view, be eligible in the report, and I can go along with those. There is no for consideration. difficulty with seeking to open discussions on the process So finally, hon. members, we have to realise the for appointing the Lieutenant-Governor now on the basis appointment of the Lieutenant-Governor is made by the of the most recent experience, and there is no difficulty in Crown, but we also have to realise, and many of us do, considering the points raised by the committee, but I would that the Lieutenant-Governor has a dual role: there is the suggest that it should be recognised that at the end of the vice-regal role as Her Majesty’s representative and there day the Governor is, as Mr Speaker has said, a Crown is the consular role as a channel of communication with appointment, and the appointment could be made without the United Kingdom Government. Whilst the Isle of Man reference to or involvement by the Isle of Man authorities. is rightly paying the salary and expenses of the Lieutenant- Also, there are legitimate question marks against some of Governor acting as the Queen’s representative, the Isle of the proposals that the committee has made. Man is also paying the salary and expense of the If I can just touch on one or two of those, the role of the Lieutenant-Governor acting as a consular representative Governor: now, the royal instructions are certainly of the United Kingdom Government. traditional rather than contemporary. As such, they have So to summarise, your committee are unanimous that not inhibited the evolutionary process over the last several the process and procedure for the appointment of the decades which have seen the executive role of the Governor Lieutenant-Governor is worthy of review and recommend greatly curtailed. There is always the possibility that a clear ground rules must be formally established and agreed contemporary statement might either clarify the present in writing with the Home Office. The rules must clearly role in ways with which we may not be entirely comfortable state the degree of priority given to the nomination of the or that any new written statement would become written Council of Ministers, the role of the Chief Minister in the in stone and inhibit further evolution, so I would suggest

Lieutenant-Governor - Appointment Process - Report of the Standing Committee - Debate Commenced TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 T667 caution is therefore needed in that area. Nevertheless, we this is a recipe for excluding Manx parliamentarians, I can certainly establish through the Home Office whether would suggest. If we accept the principle set out by the there is a case for reviewing the role of the Governor and committee and the United Kingdom continues to deal with amending the royal instructions to reflect that role. the issue at officer level, Manx politicians would have to Now, I take the point of placing the appointment on a be excluded and again, I would suggest, scarcely an legislative basis. It is proposed in the report by the advance for Manx democracy. (Mrs Hannan and Mr committee but this would carry some more pressing Gilbey: Hear, hear.) In addition, it is worth saying that we dangers, I would suggest. Our attention is drawn by the would not allow the UK to dictate to us who should deal committee to the Gibraltar Constitution Order 1969 as a with the matter on our Island. By the same token we cannot possible model. Let us be again absolutely clear about that expect to dictate to the United Kingdom who should deal order: it is not in itself legislative in nature; it was made with the matter on their side. under the royal prerogative, it is one of a series of such Could I then just touch on the involvement of the orders which were made in respect of colonies drawn up Governor? The report refers to the involvement of the by the United Kingdom Government and recommended outgoing Lieutenant-Governor, and for the avoidance of to Her Majesty by the United Kingdom Government. The doubt let me say that the Governor did not play any part in order is about 100 pages long and deals comprehensively the Isle of Man Government’s deliberations on the subject with the Gibraltar Constitution. However, I would have so was not involved in any decision-making this last time. the gravest reservations about inviting the United Kingdom No doubt he was consulted by the Home Office, but that is Government to prepare and enact legislation dealing with their prerogative. the constitution of this Isle. (Members: Hear, hear.) This I would like to touch on the Council of Ministers and would be out of our hands and I would suggest, as in the the involvement of the Council of Ministers. The report case of Scotland and Wales, a paramount position for says, ‘In neither jurisdiction should there be a formal Westminster with authority to devolve matters to the Island. process outside the transparent application process by I would have reservations about any legislation being which applicants are considered for appointment as enacted which formalised parts of our constitution. We have Lieutenant-Governor of the Isle of Man.’ I can agree with long had an unwritten constitution which has allowed that. I think if there was one change that I personally would evolution to occur. We have not been inhibited in making propose for next time in relation to the handling of the progress by any claim that the changes we have made are matter locally, it is that the Council of Ministers should not canvass suggestions and make any recommendations contrary to some written constitution. As the unwritten as to who the next Governor should be. The existence of a constitution has not inhibited change and as a written Council of Ministers endorsement of a local candidate constitution might inhibit change I see no cause to put the made my participation very, very difficult whilst serving Governor’s appointment as part of the constitution onto a on the tribunal and undermined my position on the tribunal legislative basis. Moreover, I do not see anything in the as I could not be seen by fellow members as sufficiently Gibraltar order which is quoted in the report which offers open-minded because of the Council of Ministers’ pre­ us anything of that value which we do not have here at declared position. In other words, I sat on a selection present. The Gibraltar order, in fact says very little. committee for an appointment with an already If I could also just go to the service to the Crown, the predetermined decision made that if I went back to the report suggests that distinguished service to the Crown is Isle of Man with anyone other than the Council of too narrow a requirement for a candidate for Lieutenant- Ministers’ declared position I had failed, but I had also Governor and I would like to make it absolutely clear this failed my fellow members on that tribunal because I had a was indeed our wish. The original Home Office proposal determined position before I sat down. was the candidate should have a record of distinguished I could go on but I will not. The final page of the report public service. This we felt was in fact too wide; we felt touches on two matters which are outside the appointment that the status of the office and the ceremonial nature of process - that is, the salary of the Governor and who should the office required a background of Crown service, mere pay it - and also the second is the formal channel of public service might include, for example, a former chief communication, and I must admit I do have difficulty in executive of a UK local authority, a manager of a National understanding why this should be regarded as tenuous. But Health Service trust or someone from indeed a political finally the report is critical of some of the mechanical background. Without being critical of any of those groups, processes for dealing with the application, and these it was our view and it remains our view that the Governor certainly appear to leave something to be desired but are of the Isle of Man should have a more suitable and relevant of course out of our hands and they are matters for the background, and it may be thought to be narrow but, as- Home Office. has been consistently demonstrated within that group, there So in summary, Mr President, I can say that I am content is an ample choice because indeed we had 59 applicants. to support the motion on the order paper but I set down Then if I can just go to the involvement of politicians those caveats, that I do not accept all the proposals which and civil servants, I do have a little concern that the the committee invites us indeed to consider, sir. committee says in their report that they consider the procedure for die appointment of the Lieutenant-Governor The President: Hon. member for Rushen, Sir Miles. should be exclusively the responsibility of either elected parliamentarians of the Isle of Man and the United Sir Miles Walker: Thank you, Mr President. I was Kingdom or civil servants from both jurisdictions. Now, invited by the previous Clerk of Tynwald to submit written

Lieutenant-Governor - Appointment Process - Report of the Standing Committee - Debate Commenced T668 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 20th MARCH 2001 evidence to this committee, and I say ‘invited to’ because also, as members of Tynwald, have to understand the it was not something that I was going to volunteer to do, I situation and evolve and grow up as things change. felt that this whole process was in fact a bit of a waste of everybody’s time. (Mr Brown: Hear, hear.) However, Mr Delaney: That is a good word, ‘grow up’. I will having been invited to submit written evidence I so did to take a note of that. the best of my ability, making it clear that some of these issues were 10 years old as far as my experience was Sir Miles Walker: The hon. mover of the resolution concerned, so I submitted my written evidence and then I made an interesting comment about he was suggesting that went along, I was asked to go and meet the committee, it would be a good idea to have Manx-born Governors if which I did, and I have to say I found the exchange, the possible, and he accepted that in a small society it might questions and my responses were very straightforward and not always be possible, and then he went on perhaps ‘what caused me no problem at all. about Governors of the Bank of England?’ Well, all I would I was a little surprised, though, when the hon. Mr say is that would be fine as long as he were a Manxman, Speaker moving this resolution said - and I think the words and I guess there are not many of those about. were - ‘This issue of sufficient importance to quote from I think the line in this report which needs to be the report’ was how he addressed it, and then he proceeded underlined is that the appointment of the Governor is one to quote, and that would have been fine if from time to for the Crown, and I think we should understand that as time he had not left the quoting of the report to inject what long as we are a Crown dependency. But the more I regard as rather snide comments, and I do not believe involvement we can have in that process, the better it must they were necessary. He talked about the ‘old boy network’. be, and when I say ‘we’ I mean the Isle of Man community I have to say when Sir Laurence New, as the then Governor, through the politicians, through the Chief Minister, through looked through the short list and said to me - and I passed the Council of Ministers, and I believe that we are moving this message on because I am not one for keeping these in that direction and I would be concerned if by pursuing things to myself particularly, because it was not said in in detail the contents of this report we hardened attitudes confidence - that he had met Sir Laurence Jones and and so saw a situation develop where we did not have as thought he would be a good appointment, I saw nothing much input as we have enjoyed over the appointment of wrong at all in that and perhaps if I had it would be the last three Governors. Then I would have some cause something that I would not have repeated to this select for concern. committee of Tynwald. It seemed to me that it was a Mr President, I see no harm in accepting this report and comment that was justified, and if in fact Sir Laurence I look forward to hearing the results of the discussion in New had seen a name on that short list who he thought due course, sir. Thank you. would not make a good Governor for the Island I have to say I would have received that advice in the same spirit, The President: Hon. member of Council, Mr Delaney. so I saw nothing wrong at all, and I think it is right that I make this point because Mr Speaker the mover of the Mr Delaney: Thank you, Mr President. I, like the last resolution’s comments will be on Hansard. speaker, have great fervour in supporting the report and I certainly understood that in my time as Chief Minister congratulate the committee on trying to get to the bottom the situation was evolving as far as the appointment of our of what will always be a messy situation. I also support Lieutenant-Governor was concerned, and I have to say I the terminology used by the last speaker, ‘grow up’. Here believe the moves that were made at that time were right we are, 2001, and the Isle of Man is still living under the ones and again, just to confirm a point the Chief Minister British Crown’s grandiose title of ‘Governor’ that was made, if these issues were written down in tablets of stone developed when they had an empire in which we took part. there is no room for this sort of evolution, and I think that I suggest that if anybody wants to go anywhere they should that would be a mistake. look at those places left and approach the British So I can go along with this report as well, it does no Government to change the title to ‘the ’ or harm, and it may cause some discussion at an earlier ‘the Queen’s representative’ but the actual terminology moment between this government and Her Majesty’s ‘Governor’ - if you take the dictionary there is conflict in Government about the appointment of the Governor, but I what this Island and the other islands are trying to achieve. do believe the Chief Minister was absolutely right in It says ‘govern’: rule with authority, conduct the affairs of outlining those caveats that he did, and I would support a country or organisation, keep under control, influence, them. direct.’ That is the title of Governor, so what are we The report talks about the embarrassment to the Manx • complaining about? ‘Render unto Caesar those things that candidate. I have to say that from where I stood and are Caesar’s taken from the Bishop - a bit. The fact of itis, observed what was going on, the embarrassment to the as long as they have got this idea that they can appoint the Manx candidate and - 1 understand that - was not caused Governor, why are we trying to play about with it? Let us by the Home Office; it was caused by Mannin Line, it was tell them straight: we do not need, a Governor. What we caused by public discussion, it was caused by ill-founded need, possibly, as long as we have the Lord of Mann, is comments of members of this hon. Court, it was caused the Lord of Mann’s representative. Scotland is not going by, perhaps, resolutions in this Court. I think that is where to have a Governor, Northern Ireland has not got a the embarrassment came from if there was some, and I Governor, so why should we have a Governor in this day would be very surprised if there was not. So I think we and age? Let us go back and tell them to just change the

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title and that it will make no difference, but the word Mr Cretney: Hear, hear! ‘Governor’ out there in the real world does make a difference, because anybody who knows anything about it Mr Quine: Get your feathers in your hat, Hazel! - and you talk to your colleagues on the CPA - as soon as you mention the word ‘Governor,’ boom, boom, ‘They The Court adjourned at 6.38 p.m. are under control’, and that is the image we want to get rid of. We will work with the Lord of Mann and we will work with her administration in the other place but we do not need a Governor; it is not necessary to have a Governor in the modem era of communications. We can download from the internet any directives they want. We do not need someone sitting with a hat with ostrich feathers on. (Laughter) It is offensive, to say the least.

Mr Cannell: You used to! (Laughter)

Mr Delaney: But I cannot understand why it is we have not got the simple thing in this new century of the saying whether it is which Chief Minister, the old Chief Minister or the new Chief Minister when he is sitting down - I understand where he is coming from. It is difficult, particularly when this man is in charge of future recommendations for honours and everything else, but we should turn round and just tell him, ‘Please, will you change the title and get away from this British idea of the Empire?’ It has gone, it is finished, it is history. We are quite happy to have someone here who represents the Lord of Mann and we would be delighted to work with them, they are very nice people, and they give an excellent lunch as well. But the idea that somehow we can tell them who they send, I think, is taking it a bit far. As long as we give them the right to appoint this person - and they had the right to appoint this person under some ancient treaty - they can choose who they want. You have only got to have a look at who the members of the committee were that sat over there. You have only got to look at that, a nice quango to be on, and they made a decision the same way as with our Chief Minister; they have got pre-ideas of who they are going to appoint. We know how the system works. I honestly believe the committee has done a darn good job, but I think that what wants to be exposed is the fact that if you really get down to it a Governor is not what we want, it is a representative is what we want, and the sooner you get rid of the word ‘Governor’ the problem will disappear; we will not have the subservient touching our forelock then as you get when you go out to the wide world and talk about the Governor of the Isle of Man. That is all we need, just to live in the real world. Mr President, I hope that whoever is the Chief Minister in the next administration sits down and talks about a logical step, consign the Governor to history and let us get on with this new century.

The President: Now, hon. members, as I indicated before, it was my intent to finish shortly around the 6.30 mark. I have three other members who have indicated that they wish to speak as well as the winding up and others may well as well. At this juncture, therefore, we will adjourn the debate and start tomorrow morning at half past ten. The first member to speak will be the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan.

Lieutenant-Governor - Appointment Process - Report of the Standing Committee - Debate Commenced