Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Mark Moroney
MANX HERITAGE FOUNDATION ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ORAL HISTORY TRANSCRIPT
‘TIME TO REMEMBER’
Interviewee: Mr Mark Moroney
Date of birth:
Place of birth:
Interviewer: Roger Rawcliffe and Sue Lewis
Recorded by: Roger Rawcliffe
Date recorded: 16th November 2006
Topic(s): Being called to the English Bar Callow & Fick Finance Sector and UK taxes Furniss and Dawson Isle of Man Shelf Companies Issuing of Banking Licences Mr Brooks and misappropriation of client’s money Treat from UK over definition of ‘deemed domicile’ Legal profession and local practitioners Introduction of Land Speculation Tax Director of Savings & Investment Bank [SIB] Advocate Dicky Penn Training as Manx Advocate and exams Fo Halloo and Judah Binstock Increasing numbers of advocates and accountants
Mark Moroney - Mr M Roger Rawcliffe - RR Sue Lewis - SL
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Manx Heritage Foundation: TIME TO REMEMBER: Mark Moroney
RR … writing a book on the history of the finance sector. It isn’t really – it’s not like Mark Solly’s book …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... which has got everything to be known about the finance sector …
Mr M Yep.
RR … repeated five times in different chapters.
Mr M Yep.
RR This is err … trying to give the round picture …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... it also involves … things like … Manx people complaining about the finance sector …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... you know, all the sort of issues …
Mr M Yep.
RR ... of building and cars and …
Mr M Yes.
RR It’s the whole picture. Err … I came – I was engaged – I came, first, in the 1940s here ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and I’ve been engaged to Elizabeth in 1969, and been coming regularly …
Mr M Yes. 2
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RR ... so a lot of it took place …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and I knew it was taking place, and I knew some of the things …
Mr M Yea.
RR ... but I only came here at the end of 1979, so the bit between 1960 and 1980…
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR ... I don’t really know directly.
Mr M Yes.
RR Umm … when did you start?
Mr M I came … umm … I came to the Island in 1970 ... umm ... I …
RR Your parents came, didn’t they?
Mr M No, I came – they came after me, I came on my own …
RR Yea.
Mr M ... in 1970, I’d umm … I’d been to Oxford, I taught at university for a year in Liverpool …
RR Yes I know, yes.
Mr M ... and then I got called to the English Bar and did a pupillage and then came over here, qualified for two years, and umm …
RR Who did you qualify with?
Mr M Oh, with Mr Crellin – Mr John Crellin.
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RR Oh, were you? Right, were you – could be illuminating, yes! (laughter) That’s what – I’m going to have to see him, but that’s one of the areas which could be very interesting.
Mr M Yes, umm … the umm … the – I … I set up in … Colin Fick was in …was in the partnership, so I joined him in 1972.
RR So, 1972 … I remember …
Mr M Yes.
RR Callow & Fick, wasn’t it?
Mr M That’s right, yes, yes, ‘cos Henry Callow became the High Bailiff …
RR He’d become ...?
Mr M High Bailiff.
RR High Bailiff.
Mr M Yea, yea.
RR So you … 1972 … I was hoping to talk … to Bill [tapping sound] Dawson …
Mr M Dawson, yea.
RR ... who came in 1969 …
Mr M Humm.
RR ... and the sort of general feeling I get – I never knew really when financial sector type of work started, but it seems only to have been in about 1972.
Mr M It was the – it was very strange, when I first came here, there was ... umm a completely different attitude to what there is now to the Inland Revenue. Umm …
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RR Oh I know.
Mr M ... people used to say that … umm … you know, that they had no reason for enforcement, and of course, you had a lot of people leaving England, because … because of the very high taxes, because, you remember, the end of the Labour Government, it was getting up with a surcharge to over 107%.
RR 103 was the worse.
Mr M Yes, they had a surcharge …
RR 103 was the worse.
Mr M That’s right – 103, ‘cos they had a 98% top rate, and then had a …
RR Plus five.
Mr M ... and then had a surcharge on it.
RR Yes, Mr Jenkins had [unclear].
Mr M That’s right so (laughter) you know …
RR 1968 that was (laughter) ... that was severe.
Mr M The other point of course to umm … umm … to … to remember, is, of course, there was ... umm exchange control, so people …
RR Absolutely.
Mr M ... didn’t have the choice of movement. Umm … and the other thing which struck me at the time was, there was a tremendous umm … whereas nowadays everyone works with London, the things were very much with the Northwest. Manchester, Liverpool …
RR Hmm.
Mr M ... families from the Northwest coming here. 5
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RR I think it is still partly true, isn’t it, you know.
Mr M It is, it is.
RR We tend to have more contact there …
Mr M It is, it is.
RR ... though when I joined Pannells …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... we did a lot of work with Londoners – more work with Londoners.
Mr M The other thing, Roger, which happened really – started at that stage and really happened up to the Furniss ...
[Someone knocks and enters the room and then leaves]
Mr M ... up to the Furniss and Dawson period …
RR Hmm, hmm.
Mr M ... was umm … there were an awful lot of these share exchange agreements and life settlements and reversions umm … tax schemes, ‘cos I remember, in Furniss and Dawson, I was an articled clerk and Mr Crellin asked me to go over and made me a director – you know, I was a director and went over to do the settlement, in nineteen …
RR Was Furniss and Dawson set up in your time then?
Mr M Oh yes.
RR Is that one of John Crellin’s [unclear].
Mr M Yes, yes, it’s a – there’s a House of Lords Report on it.
RR ‘Cos he was very much a pioneer. 6
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Mr M He was, he was, he was, he was John, yea. I mean, he – I mean, one of the things which used to actually happen was this roll-over share exchange scheme for capital gains. John, John did a lot of those … umm … I mean, I wasn’t there for long, but umm, and really, I ... I was asked to go as … as … as a student to be a director to do the completion, you know, but umm …
RR We didn’t really – Pannells was not really into all that …
Mr M No.
RR ... very much, I mean, we started doing auditing and things. (laughter) But there were quite a lot of things that … like some of the ones we came across …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... where people set things for – which were not constructed …
Mr M No.
RR ... in a way which would stand [unclear], which were just for concealment.
Mr M Well, it’s very difficult …
RR There was more of that about …
Mr M ... it’s very difficult, it’s very difficult, you know, to … to … I mean, one of the difficulties, it’s very difficult to know sort of looking back, you know, umm… umm, that umm … you know, but you know, but certainly that was end to it. You know, those sort of umm … tax schemes were … were part of the scene in those days.
RR And what’s … that was even during the time when you were being articled?
Mr M Well, the fact is that, in the Furniss and Dawson thing, the actual completion took place … the only reason I was there ‘cos I was a student, and was asked to … John and Peter Crellin were the directors, and I was asked ... umm to go over and do the settlement that day, so …
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RR So that was … that was …
Mr M That was ’71.
RR ’71, wasn’t it.
Mr M Yea.
RR That’s … that’s earlier than Bill Dawson was saying …
Mr M Yea.
RR I think he was thinking more in the terms of unit trusts and things ...
Mr M Oh yes, well I don’t think …
RR ... also started around there somewhere …
Mr M Humm.
RR ... and one of the things I tried to get to, is the … the use of trusts and companies in the various scheme that put up – some better than others – Furniss and Dawson was a very successful scheme.
Mr M But I mean – it was alright for capital … capital … capital gains. I mean, I really, you know, can’t … I mean, I remember that these things were … that there were tax schemes about, but umm … you know …
RR Anyway, I’m going to see John, and I’m going to see Dougie Bolton.
Mr M Yes, yes, that’s right, well again, they would be very excellent.
RR They were.
Mr M Yes.
RR And … and … and umm …
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Mr M Yes.
RR ... Julian Harper, I think …
Mr M Julian, yes.
RR ... he’s another one who …
Mr M Yes.
RR Now, going forwards a bit. Umm … you and I had an interesting time with Mr Brooks.
Mr M That’s right, yes, yes.
RR Umm … was it you who was saying about the banks – John had lots of shelf companies, didn’t he?
Mr M Well … well, shelf companies were, but shelf companies were done by quite a lot of firms …
RR Oh, I know, there’s nothing wrong with shelf companies.
Mr M You know … you know … I mean, a lot … you know, a lot of the people, you know, you know, legal firms, accountancy firms …
RR Yea, well we had them.
Mr M Would actually, I think, sort of produce them in bulk for the simple reason that they, in those days, used to have to have printed [unclear], not the scruffy stuff they have now – photocopies …
RR Humm.
Mr M ... so there was quite a good commercial reason, but they ob … if they could produce a whole batch of a hundred, or two hundred or something, it would then mean that they could actually get them at a very decent rate.
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RR When we … when we worked with [unclear], we amalgamated our trust business with John …
Mr M Yes.
RR What’s it called ... err ... John Quinn ...?
Mr M Yes.
RR ... umm ... and he had some wonderful things. The best one of all was ‘Hush Hush’ Investments. (laughter)
Mr M Really? Yes. (laughter)
RR Isn’t it wonderful?! (laughter) When we decided we’d do his, and he’d set that off, and Kevin Perry [unclear] ...
Mr M Yes … yes … yes …
RR ... ‘Hush Hush’ Investments went back again. So – oh yes, there’s nothing wrong with … but, but I – someone said to me, and I don’t know whether it was you, but someone remarked to me that John Crellin had Northern Bank, Southern Bank, Eastern Bank and Western Bank …
Mr M It wasn’t me! (laughter)
RR ... all … all sort of on the shelf waiting, including the Savings & Investment Bank ...
Mr M Yes, that’s right.
RR ... which he formed in 1965 ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... but which wasn’t actually used until later …
Mr M Yes, yes that’s right. 10
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RR ... umm … no reason ... I mean, doing no harm, sitting on the shelf …
Mr M No.
RR ... (laughter) except for Falcon Bank, was that the one you said.
Mr M Well, that – I think Falcon – I think it was Falcon Bank – I mean, I just remember – again, my memory might be playing [up] … but 1980, I think it was some case involving – it was Deemster Corrin was dealing it up in Ramsey, and he wasn’t terribly impressed to say this company had got a licence umm … got a banking licence before it had been formed. So … so it must have been in the days when banking, you know, post ’75 when there were banking licences. I think, certainly I know Jack Corrin was rather upset about this (laughter) – you wouldn’t think it was terribly careful regulation. (laughter)
RR Not, not very good. (laughter) Now, let’s just talk about Mr Brooks, which you and I both [unclear] ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... I mean, it’s … it’s … been in the courts …
Mr M Yes, yes, yes.
RR ... so it’s open. I can’t quite remember when Mr Brooks was ... it was the early ‘80s.
Mr M Yes, it … I remember it very well because it was the July of 1983, and umm … Mr Brooks sort of came and said umm … you know, that he’d … he’d … he’d been involved in – I’m trying to put the correct word – possibly a misapplication of clients’ rights.
RR He came to you first?
Mr M Yes, he did, yea, he came and told me.
RR I wonder why?
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Mr M He came and told me.
RR He sort of became alarmed with his own …?
Mr M He … he … he … he actually came and said that, yes. So I rang, ‘cos I didn’t know how to get hold of Jane [unclear] so I contacted her, and also I thought, well we want to get the facts, so which is why, you know, I contacted Jim Caine ...
RR Humm.
Mr M ... umm … and then Simon came over (laughter) from South Africa. And err … there was a …
RR Our mutual clients [unclear]. The father had died – the mother was a splendid woman who has only just died …
Mr M Yes, yes, yes.
RR ... but some of the children are wilder than some of the other children. (laughter)
Mr M So, anyway …
RR Simon (laughter) …
Mr M ... but anyway, it was a … it was a very happy story in the end, because the umm … firstly you did a wonderful job, and continued to do for a few years, in relation to that matter, and umm … you know, there was umm …
RR And … and the essence of what he’d done, was that he had, in effect, used his client’s money to invest in property ...
Mr M That’s right, that’s right.
RR ... and paid them – he alleged to be in containers …
Mr M Yes. 12
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RR ... and so they were getting 20% per annum on their containers, or 20% per quarter or some really quite handsome amount, which was paid for a bit until the money ran out, you see.
Mr M And the other, or course, the other point as well about that, is, which is something which is taboo here, is the issue of payment of interest to clients …
RR Hmm.
Mr M ... out of capital. So that, you see, if you’re sort of in South Africa, you think you are getting interest from Gilts or …
RR Hmm.
Mr M ... something like that – you don’t know effectively that it’s your capital ... so umm … I mean, I don’t know how … how long he would be able to … he did actually admit it. But one didn’t know the scope or anything ’til Roger umm … and … and … and Jim Caine and their associates went in, because we contacted them immediately, and umm …
RR Yea, I mean I remember reasonably clearly, umm … what happened. He, whatever sums of money it was, went to buy a bit of land above The Palace …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... which our James …
Mr M That’s right!
RR ... subsequently (laughter) I think you did – you acted for …
Mr M That’s right …
RR ... you acted for the builders, didn’t you?
Mr M ... that’s right, that’s right, yes, Victoria Park …
RR Ensign [sp ???] Homes … 13
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Mr M ... Victoria Park, yes, that’s right.
RR ... and that’s what he bought ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... but the timing had gone wrong ‘cos of the property market …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... fell away …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and he was left with property he couldn’t sell, and the company had been paying this interest to the supposed investors of containers, but they … the money … the money ran out and he couldn’t sell the property. And we, in the end, liquidated it, I think.
Mr M I think … I think that’s right. I mean, the whole … I mean … it ... it … it was only because that Mrs Boclair authorised me to call in, you know, a really good firm of accountants because … you needed, in that case, a firm of accountants to deal with the situation, because a non-accountant or a lawyer would have just been …
RR Yes, it was a lot of figure-work in trying to find out what had happened and where the money had gone, and, and …
Mr M And I think it’s the first time, the first time I came across Paul Seaward. I think he’d only just joined …
RR Hmm … yes, he came … well, he’d been in the … he’d been in the office since 1978 or 9 …
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR ... but he was just finishing his articles …
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Mr M Yes.
RR ... he was just about qualified.
Mr M Yes … he was … he was … he was very good on that …
RR He is – I mean, he still is very good, I mean, I think Paul was considered terrific. And he’s – a lot of work he does now is actually on that side of things …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... on … on … you know, sort of investigation, liquidation.
Mr M Can you [I] say something which, also just going back to the ‘70s, I think which might interest you. Umm … I remember a few of us became very worried in, when the Labour Government got back, in umm…
RR ’74.
Mr M ... ’74, and this business about that ‘deemed domicile,’ and I remember there was a group of us who used to meet, as I remember, Walter Gilby used to be there, David Leber, Martin Moore, myself and there’d be one or two others who used to meet down in the Singers office, umm … and we were very, very concerned about that from the point of view of the Isle of Man. And umm … we used to make suggestions like getting in touch with the Scottish National Party, and things like that, ‘cos it seemed to be absolutely, you know, death sentence if the UK could control the ‘deemed domicile.’
RR But it could control it all. I mean, I suppose the difficulty was that the serving area had become quite small by then.
Mr M Well, that’s right, you see.
RR It was only the British Isles including Ireland, and then Gibraltar and odd places …
Mr M Hmm, hmm.
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RR ... but the main countries, like Australia had gone out of [unclear] ...
Mr M Hmm.
RR ... and so you couldn’t get your money very far …
Mr M Hmm.
RR ... and it wouldn’t have mattered if you’d taken them to Australia, because you were deemed – it the same for inheritance tax or capital transfer tax …
Mr M Hmm, hmm.
RR ... you were deemed to be domiciled and therefore liable to it, even after you’d left it. And there was no … there was actually no escaping, was there?
Mr M No, no, no, there wasn’t.
RR But then they … 19 … when Mrs Thatcher did away with exchange controls, it – we then had the anomaly situation that you could take your money anywhere in the world and the ‘deemed domicile’ provision only applied in the Channel Isles and the Isle of Man.
Mr M And talking about Mrs Thatcher, I remember I wrote, at the time, umm … to an MP about this, in the Bill, and it was the winter of 1974, and she was the – Robert Carr was technically the Treasury spokesman and she was the number two at that stage, and she wrote a letter back saying that she entirely saw – what she either promised to or did move an amendment, which was unsuccessful, to the Finance Bill, ‘cos she was seen to be doing a great deal of the work on that. But she was very … she … she’d taken on … she’d been alerted to the point in 1974.
RR But after she abolished exchange control …
Mr M Yea.
RR ... it still took another three or four years for us to get rid of it and I ... I actually handled that, ‘cos I had a boy in my house called Henderson … 16
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Mr M Yes.
RR ... who was a first cousin of the present Earl Attlee …
Mr M Good God!
RR ... and, of course, Lady Attlee, the generation … one generation up, had been a Miss Henderson …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and now this chap, Barry Henderson, was an MP for – Conservative MP for Fife, and I got him onto it, and it did get lifted after about two years …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... but whether it was my input, he did it, he raised it, but who…who actually got it done, I don’t know, but I did, funnily enough, ten years later, still … still beavering away at that. That was after that [unclear]. Umm … going back to Mr Brooks and his likes …
Mr M Hmm.
RR ... I mean that Brooks was there, as we know, Harding was a co-director of the companies that were doing the mischief, although not having, you know, signed anything …
Mr M Hmm, hmm.
RR ... and all the money went through the firm’s client account. I look about, when I came here, I looked about the place and I thought, well now, some of these people seem to have got a lot more money than I can explain on any sort of professional fee basis or the fact that they’d inherited it. Brooks, perhaps, is an example of someone … who also looked about and saw that.
Mr M Hmm.
RR Do you think anybody was doing that in … in … it never came to light, because 17
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if you paid your clients back, no one was bothered.
Mr M You know, I think … I mean, I think the other thing, of course, is that, umm … the professionals were quite small then. I mean, there were only – I mean, certainly among the legal profession …
RR The legal profession was much … much smaller …
Mr M Only about twenty … twenty two, twenty three there …
RR ... even for some years into the 80s.
Mr M ... and most … and most of us really were – I mean, the whole sort of tax scheme business thing were really in the hands – the accountants did the lead. Most of the lawyers kept to doing conventional things because … winding up estates …
RR Yep.
Mr M ... umm … sort of … I mean, litigation, I remember umm … for the first year ... mainly for the first two years of my practice we used to have a thing called, Poor Prisoners Defence Act of 1933, and you used to get 10/6 an hour for defending these characters, but because you had the certainty and the generosity of the Isle of Man Government paying you, they used to knock 15% [???] off (laughter) and, I think at one stage … I think at one stage, that the three most junior advocates, of whom ... I whom was ... always did the lot. And one of the things you used to find was you used to find a lot of the same people coming up about two or three times in a year. (laughter) So it was umm … you know, it wasn’t terribly sophisticated finance sector stuff, this, you know, it was sort of fights in Pulrose …
RR I’m sure the – I think John Kennaugh was perhaps the exception …
Mr M Yes, yes I think John was …
RR ... amongst the legal profession …
Mr M Yes. 18
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RR ... and accountants in Britain and in America, I think, the lawyers do more corporate …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... the accountants in Britain have been the ones who … who’ve … do the tax.
Mr M I think … I think there’s a very important thing about this, Roger, I’ve thought about this. You see, to train as an accountant, you need to have a knowledge, and detailed knowledge, of UK tax to pass your exam. To train as a Manx Advocate, when I did the exams, or even when I did the Bar exams, there wasn’t any exam in tax at all …
RR No.
Mr M ... so you had actually … there was no technical equipment …
RR No.
Mr M ... intellectual equipment for the advocates.
RR But I think it was true, also, of English solicitors, although they had to …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... they were affected by UK tax. Most solicitors were not really very interested in the figure stuff …
Mr M No.
RR ... services in trust accounts for example.
Mr M It’s completely different, isn’t it, from America where the lawyers are really into the tax.
RR Well, lawyers are very much more pioneers, than the accountants …
Mr M And of course, the other point about it is, I think, that umm … I think in relation 19
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to tax in America, the criminal sanctions attaching to misfeasance in tax are very, very serious indeed.
RR Hmm.
Mr M Traditionally there has not been the wide ranging criminal sanctions in relation to tax affairs unless people really …
RR Done something bad …
Mr M ... behave quite outrageously about three times.
RR Yea. Now that … that could change, of course, with all this getting the Customs & Excise involved (laughter) – horrible sinister sort of thing.
Mr M Yes.
RR Umm … but do you think that Brooks had simply got his timing wrong?
Mr M I think – I mean, I think Brooks really was umm … someone who just was … was … was taken over by his own … his own greed. Because, you see, no accountant would start off trying to get themselves into this position. What I think he thought …
RR One hopes so! (laughter)
Mr M Well, one hopes so, of course. What I think he thought he would do, is that he would make these various investments with clients’ money, and it’s a bit … it’s a bit like people who’ve done it sort of worldwide with things …
RR Hmm.
Mr M ... the idea is they think they will make money, and then return the capital to the clients – it doesn’t happen like that. I mean he … he … he broke, you know, the … the golden rule, that it’s not [unclear].
RR Oh, absolutely, I mean …
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Mr M But … but … but I think what it was, I think, to a certain extent, people who do that tend to fool themselves, I mean …
RR You … you think he was a one-off, probably?
Mr M I do, I do. Well, you see, the other thing which is strange about him is that, normally, if you’re a totally sort of hard-bitten, you know, serious, you know, serious serial fraudster, you don’t go into a lawyer’s office …
RR Oh no, no, no, I think that’s perfectly true (laughter)...
Mr M ... and confess yourself, you know.
RR ... but (laughter) ...
Mr M Yes. (laughter)
RR (laughter) ... that’s true!
Mr M Well, you know, I don’t know. I mean, people might, but, you know …
RR I think, I mean, I think he got caught up with … with … with what he perceived to be an opportunity …
Mr M Yes, I think … I think …
RR Why did he perceive it, though, that’s the …
Mr M Well, I suppose what you … what you – I suppose what happens is the people – this is only my speculation (laughter) …
RR Hmm.
Mr M ... but you see people – see, one of the difficulties about the Isle of Man is that there are people, you know, a lot of people make money. People don’t see that it is a peculiar, you know, it’s peculiar, people can be very good at property …
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RR Hmm.
Mr M ... very good at something or very good at shares, they can be hardly literate. It’s sort of … it’s a completely different skill.
RR Hmm.
Mr M You know, and people think that they can do it, and they can’t. I think what it is, is, you know, he was dealing with, say, clients who were dealing with properties, which we know that he was, because, apart from Mrs Boclaire, other people we came across were people who were dealing developments, and I think there was a Spanish element to it, wasn’t there?
RR Well, there was err – that’s where he took refuge, wasn’t it. Those houses in Malaga, wasn’t it?
Mr M That’s right, so I mean, there was a Spanish element to it, so I think what he … I think what he got, I think he got swept up in the whirl, so to speak …
RR Well, there was a lot of money made here, in the 1970s, with property because they introduced land speculation tax to …
Mr M Well that’s right.
RR ... to try and glean some of that back again.
Mr M And then, I mean – it was a whole – I mean, the whole thing about timing was very unfortunate here. Umm … the – have you got this early one … from Mark Solly?
RR Which one is that?
Mr M The 1975 one – his introduction – how he saw the Isle of Man?
RR I haven’t actually got one, but we’ve got access to them.
Mr M Have you … the – I think you’ll find the ’75 one very interesting.
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RR Yes, that’s it – that was more interesting, that was the first one he did.
Mr M Yes, because that has a lot of his concepts. It’s a very interesting commentary on the Isle of Man in the mid ‘70s.
RR Hmm … I’m seeing Mark this afternoon, so …
Mr M I mean … you’ve got it anyway, haven’t you, so …
RR Yes, we’ve got it … well, I had them, I had one of my – I think when I moved from Douglas down here, I had a book clear-out, and I think, unfortunately, they went, because they were, by this time …
Mr M Yea.
RR ... no longer relevant. But they were interesting. That was a mistake I made, I think. I had both – there were two copies, that was … that was a more interesting …
Mr M It was, yes. Umm … just want to see ... umm … I did a little article in the second one.
RR Go … going … going into the 1980s …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... we were talking about Brooks … were there other villains that were floating about (laughter) – I mean, they were the sort that stabbed themselves in your office! (laughter)
Mr M They weren’t! That’s sort of rather a misjudgement on villainy, isn’t it? (laughter) And umm … yes, it is ... it is – that was a strange incident, I feel awkward because I was in Dublin that morning, when it happened … yes.
RR But he [unclear] to a company in trust, didn’t he
Mr M He’s a [unclear] company in trust, yea, I agree.
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RR I had to err … I had err …I was an expert witness at the fee dispute (laughter) between umm … Bennett Lloyd ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and Kingston … they’d done the audit and they refused to sign the audit report, and … but sent the bill ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... which was … actually is perfectly proper. And the question was where they had – were they justified in refusing to sign the audit report. So I was asked to go and look, and I went and looked …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and that was not very prepossessing. (laughter) Yes, because he had all these files and the paperwork just wasn’t …
Mr M Yes … humm … I tell you … which actually is … is quite interesting is that, until about 1987, there was no umm … mechanism to deal with the question of the proceeds of crime. And, in particular in relation as drugs was coming in … I’m not talking about physical drugs, like those on the streets, but – and basically what would happen is, there used to be like an injunction granted, but then there would be various negotiations umm … because there was actually no property … it was all taken into various Acts in particular, I think, in 1987 there’s an Act relating to proceeds of drugs, but umm … it was an anomaly in the law at that time.
RR Course we had also that fellow – was he Diamond – who used to be filmed dashing in and out of back doors?
Mr M Well I’d better not comment on that as I was acting in that.
RR Oh, he was one of yours, was he?
Mr M I was acting in that one, yes.
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RR No, no … no, no …
Mr M Yes.
RR (laughter) The TV liked following you around, didn’t they? Now the other thing, just to mention, we – I mean I know, ‘cos I was a party to it …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... was the … the matter of the SIB [Savings & Investment Bank] in which you had the misfortune in being a director of.
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR Umm … my … my impression of that is … the real … the real nub of it is, is how much information they gave you. I looked at the Minute Book and there wasn’t an awful lot in the Minute Book, (laughter) so it looks as if the director’s meetings …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... you actually didn’t get too many facts put in front of you.
Mr M Umm … I mean, I … umm … I … I really – it’s … it’s … it’s a very difficult topic, because it’s … it’s umm … a long time ago, and a lot of people are no longer alive, and there’s always a great danger of umm … you know, saying things in retrospect and doing things, and frankly, being unfair. Umm … I would say umm … I would say one thing, one thing only about this, ‘cos I remember when the last accounts came, I queried it at the Board meeting, I went to see the auditors and I … it’s not that I’m just saying that now, it was in the Minutes.
RR Yes, I think I remember seeing it.
Mr M You remember that? Now, I don’t – the great danger about something … about something like that is that, there’s a lot on it, umm … and I … I feel that … [unclear] wanting to be, you know … I mean, I could sort of make trite comments on it … 25
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RR No, no … I mean it was an awful time for you, of course.
Mr M And … and also you’re … you’re terrible conscious that … I’m awfully conscious, I mean, people like … there’s a very nice man who was very strong in the Church of England called Stuart Collister who was a highly reputable non-executive, and he’s … he’s no longer with us, he’s dead twenty years, and I … I … I just … I just feel unhappy.
RR It’s the facts of the thing. I’m not asking you anything further about that, I mean, that … that’s – I think you’ve told me that before.
Mr M Humm.
RR Umm … it’s a thing, obviously I …
Mr M That’s right, that’s right, yes.
RR ... it’s worth raising. I … I – we all went in rather like your team that went into Brooks …
Mr M Yes, yes, yes.
RR ... we all went in there …
Mr M Yes, that’s right.
RR ... and Jim was there (laughter) …
Mr M Yes, yes, yes, yes.
RR ... orchestrating it all …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and I’d just become a partner …
Mr M Yes, I remember the first time I met you.
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RR ... and I’d only just stopped teaching for two years …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and err … so I did the easy jobs … the easy jobs, I said, ‘Well, I’m very good at these jobs,’ – I used to audit in the 1950s …
Mr M Yes. (laughter)
RR ... ‘and the first thing you do,’ I said, ‘when doing a back issue count,’ I said, ‘I’ll do the simple thing, I’ll count the cash.’ (laughter) So have I told you this awful story? (laughter)
Mr M No. (laughter)
RR I went to count the cash. I said, ‘I – you’ve got £5,000,’ or whatever it was, ‘cash,’...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... ‘now let me count that.’ ‘Cos we’re doing effectively a balance sheet audit …
Mr M Yes, yes ...
RR ... ‘Oh yes,’ they said. They opened the safe …‘Oh, dear,’ they said, ‘there doesn’t seem to be any.’ So I said, ‘Well, never mind,’ – laughed that off … err … ‘we’ll do the travellers’ cheques,’ … travellers’ cheques. Peer in the safe … ‘Oh, dear.’ (laughter) The whole thing was just …
Mr M Oh dear, yea, I know.
RR ... ludicrous!
Mr M Yea, I know, it’s …
RR I, oddly enough, became quite involved in the … in the err … politics of it …
Mr M Yea. 27
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RR ... because I went with Bill Dawson and Jim Caine and Jeffery Crowe to London to meet with Victor Gray and Thai Farmers’ Bank and various other people …
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR ... to see if they would pump in capital …
Mr M Yea, yea.
RR ... loans to – because about £20 million mismatch on the face of it.
Mr M Yea, yea.
RR When you liquidate, it always gets worse, of course, you know that …
Mr M Yes, yea.
RR ... so we went off and did that and that was quite interesting. I went up to Tynwald. Charles Caine sat there and he said, ‘Of course, there’s nothing wrong with this bank,’ he said, ‘that can’t be solved.’ (laughter) ‘It’s all Jack …’ Tip … what was it? Rapier [sp ???], was it?
Mr M Yea.
RR ... ‘Tip Rapier [sp ???] rubbishing us,’ which he was … umm … ‘and it’s perfectly sound.’ The end of the meeting, and Jim had presented the figures, Charles Caine said – wonderful … standing on the head, ‘Of course, this bank’s hopeless!’ (laughter) …
Mr M I know, I know, I know.
RR ... and that was … so that’s an awful – fascinating period of … it’s like a bank teach-in – a bank audit teach-in – what could go wrong with a bank, and … umm one of the things I …
Mr M Yes.
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RR ... you know – only been a partner two months, hadn’t really done much auditing all this time …
Mr M Yea.
RR ... I looked at the Minute Book, that’s what happened, and there wasn’t an awful lot, ‘cos, whatever they were doing …
Mr M No, it certainly wasn’t …
RR ... was not being presented to the Board – whether the Board should have said, ‘Hey, you can’t do that – we want to see what [unclear] is.’ Well, it’s futile to ask now, but it might have been a good idea at the time. (laughter)
Mr M Yes, very good.
RR But I – you know, I know, obviously, quite a bit about that now.
Mr M Yes, right.
RR But I’m not here to talk about, I’m not …
Mr M No, no.
RR ... in the book, there, to talk about SIB [Savings & Investment Bank], although it has to be talked about.
Mr M No, no, no, we … I mean, the terrible thing is, I … I am just terribly conscious, with all the years having passed, and my own perceptions and things, I’m terribly conscious of a lot people being alive …
RR Hmm.
Mr M ... who – it would be so easy, I mean …
RR Well, it would be easy for you, perhaps, to say things which tended to blame them rather than blame yourself …
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Mr M Yea, exactly.
RR ... or whatever …
Mr M Yea, do you know what I mean? It’s just …
RR ... but I was more detached …
Mr M Yes, that’s right, you know …
RR ... having seen (laughter) the dry papers, without really knowing the people, it’s easier …
Mr M That’s right … yep.
RR ... ‘cos I’m working on … on … the collective evidence …
Mr M Yes, yes, yes.
RR ... I don’t know – I mean, I wouldn’t know who to blame.
Mr M That’s right.
RR I would suspect it was … Killin knew perfectly well what was going on … err … Victor Gray … I’m not so sure, quite – Victor Gray’s …
Mr M You could think about one or two other things which I think I could possibly help you on the 70s.
RR Yea.
Mr M Umm, the … the … the other thing, which, again was very umm … quiet, really was, the legal profession was really quite quiet throughout the 70s. Umm … it … it was very traditional, there weren’t – because – there weren’t really very many people coming in, because it often used to take five years articles …
RR That’s right.
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Mr M ... to qualify. The other thing is, that there was not … that – it’s only sort of, towards the late 70s that you got more of a graduate entry. And it is quite interesting that one of the things – a document you might like to have, Roger, which I’ll lend you …
RR Hmm.
Mr M ... is the umm … interim – this is the report, by the umm … Interim Committee on … fees, on lawyers. Now it’s not the fees I want to show you, I want – the actual comments about the profession, which was done by – it was Mr Kerruish, Vernon Bishop, Mr Caine …
RR Oh yes.
Mr M ... and Mr Cowin. Now, you might just like to borrow that …
RR Yes, I would.
Mr M ... because it’s a … it’s – it was presented to the Governor, Nigel Cecil.
RR Oh, what date was that?
Mr M This was 1982 – ’81, ’82, so I thought you’d just like to …
RR No, that could be, because later on, of course, I was involved in the Clothier …
Mr M That’s right, yes, that’s right, because …
RR ... which was taking it further along. And they took as little notice of the Clothier as they did of the (laughter) of [unclear] as they did of the [unclear]…
Mr M I thought … I thought you just – and the interesting thing is, that umm … one of the things they deal with is the question of legal education and the competency of the legal profession, and the – I think you’ll find … about businesses ... I think you’ll find that a very interesting report.
RR Yes. In other words …
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Mr M It’s just that it’s … it’s a contemporaneous view, in about 1982, on the profession. And, of course, it refers to … to … to businesses as well.
RR The education matter, I’ve been pretty well aware of all the time …
Mr M Hmm.
RR ... because I first heard it with Advocate Penn …
Mr M Well, of course, he went to the best college … umm … in Oxford …
RR Absolutely – another distinguished …
Mr M [unclear].
RR ... [unclear] of the best college in Oxford …
SL Which is?
Mr M Exeter.
RR One doesn’t need to ask! (laughter)
Mr M There’s a college called Exeter College and he’s a very distinguished …
RR And Dicky Penn … who’s married to Rosemary, Head of the FSC, who’s a barrister in England, he was in one of the Birmingham chambers, Midlands, Midlands circuit somewhere … Kenneth Clarke was one of his …
Mr M Right. (laughter)
RR ... err … I think Dicky was Head of Chambers …
Mr M Hmm.
RR ... and Kenneth Clarke was one of his … Members of Chambers … and Dickie’s wife – I came here in 1980 – started in 1979, and they came twelve months later, after watching with interest how I got on, (laughter) ‘cos 32
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Rosemary and my wife were best …
Mr M Yes, great friends, aren’t they?
RR ... brought up together, almost. So they … so they came. And Advocate Penn, Advocate Penn – I think, if you’ve ever seen ‘Rumpole of the Bailey,’ I think that’s more of his area of work, I think, although he is very insulted when I … described him as the ‘Rumpole of Ramsey!’ (laughter)
Mr M He made a wonderful remark when Deemster Corrin, I think, one of the fixed courts was Deemster Corrin, you see, and Rosemary was a guardian for a child under the court, and Dicky was acting for her in court, you see. So Jack Corrin says to Dicky Penn, ‘Mr Penn, have you received your instructions?’ He said, ‘No, not on that matter.’ (laughter)
RR He doesn’t look terribly well, Dicky, now.
Mr M Doesn’t he?
RR Oh no. Well, he had a knee operation some time ago and it hasn’t really done the trick.
Mr M Just … again, I’m just trying to think back to the 70s. So you said about education.
RR Yea, well, Dicky had to do, although he was an experienced barrister …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... he had to be articled ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... for a shorter time …
Mr M Yea.
RR ... and he had to take the accounting exam … 33
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Mr M Yes.
RR ... just the accounts exam, and a Manx law exam. And one of the things … when we got to Clothier, I think Clothier actually is the one that finally put it to bed.
Mr M Yes, it did.
RR One of the things I was very keen on, I was a member of this … umm … Clothier Service … Cecil Clothier …
Mr M Yes, yep.
RR ... and I was one of the members of it, and one of the things I was anxious about, was that the advocate should be educated beyond … wider than the Isle of Man …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... so that, broadly speaking now, they have to be … in practical ways, you can do the solicitors exams or you do the barristers exams in England, come here, you … you have … you can’t be admitted to the … for a couple of years, which is quite good …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... because it gives you a bit of sifting time. You can actually refuse to admit someone who is unsuitable.
Mr M Yes, I agree with that.
RR But, then again, just to take a Manx – a law in … Manx law and procedures.
Mr M Well, what they do is that, yes … they have two articles, but the normal people who – you now have to have – I was just looking at the regulations today, actually. You now have to have a second class honours degree …
RR And you have to have done either the English barristers or English solicitors. 34
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Mr M English barristers and then you’ve got to do the Isle of Man exams, umm … I think you still can’t do it with a degree, but you’ve got to do – but the exams are pretty extensive, I mean, about, we’ve got four …
RR I thought, now, they were required either the solicitors or the barristers … in England …
Mr M Just by sheer chance, Roger, I’ve got the regulations, because I was looking something up …
RR Ah!
Mr M ... some government office this morning, and I’ve got them here, by sheer chance, so, I will … I will get them copied for you. (laughter) I’ll just … I’ll just get on – what I’ll do is I’ll get a set copied and just send them to your house.
RR Okay, that’s lovely.
Mr M But I literally just happened to get them this morning, ‘cos I was looking at them.
RR Anyway, I mean, we did make some progress with this …
Mr M It is – you see, when I started, the umm … there wasn’t a syllabus … and there wasn’t actually a pass-mark. I think Deemster Moore was in charge of the examinations, and umm – but it was … slightly daunting, actually, because you were the only candidate – well, I was the only candidate that sat these exams and I didn’t know what the syllabus was and I had no idea what the pass-mark was. So … it … it is slightly sort of more regular now …
RR Well I did some of the examining ...
Mr M Did you? (laughter)
RR ... of the bookkeeping stuff …
Mr M Oh yes. 35
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RR ... ‘cos we did – Pannell’s always did the trust account …
Mr M Deekers [??? sp] Crowe did mine, you know …
RR ... and Neil Crowe had always done this and people were complaining that they didn’t pass! (laughter) ...
Mr M (laughter) Quite right too!
RR ... so Neil said to me, ‘Might I come ...’ because I’d been a schoolmaster ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... ‘would you like to sit, look at the paper’...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... ‘and look at the markings?’ So I looked at the paper and looked at the markings, without knowing what marks he’d given and I came out with more or less the same marks.
Mr M Yes. (laughter)
RR The papers seemed fair enough, and umm … so that’s how I became involved in the … in the marking process. But that was only that one paper ...
Mr M Yea.
RR ... of course, all the law papers were done … and Dicky Penn, I remember saying … to Dicky … err … he went in and I said, ‘Now, you’ve got to answer …’ ‘cos I’d been trying to teach him book-keeping, which was not terrifically easy, but we did it in the end …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... umm … but, I said to him, ‘Now when you answer the papers, don’t give some wonderful answer – you have to treat yourself as a student who is telling the Deemster obvious things.’ So what does he do? He goes … he asks 36
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something fairly straightforward and he gives some learned answer, you see, (laughter) but without answering the question and he failed.
Mr M (laughter) Did he?!
RR The first time he failed all the papers, and I said, ‘Well, that was just … you didn’t do what I told you to do, did you?’ (laughter) He said, ‘No.’ So I then said, ‘Well, you’d better do some practise papers and get Rosemary ...’ who’d been doing law teaching …
Mr M Yes, yes … to get him going, yea.
RR ... I said, ‘Get Rosemary to give you a few papers and make sure you are answering the questions in the way …’ Deemster cannot pass you if you don’t answer the questions.
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR So he did, and there was no further problem, but you can just see it, can’t you?
Mr M Oh yes, absolutely, yes. I’m just trying to think, Roger of anything else which, umm … I mean, the – you see, the other problem about the ’70s was, that you had this – like you had in England in the early ’70s, an enormous rise in property prices in about ’72, ’73 …
RR Yep.
Mr M ... now, it happened later than it did in England, and that’s when they introduced the Land Speculation Tax, but the … the trouble was, was the sort of unfortunate timing the [unclear] government could manage, they actually managed to bring it in when the whole thing went straight into a slump, because you had the – I mean, Mark Solly was … often said, you know, they used to get about £50,000 a year from it. Umm … and umm … used to have to fill in these forms, but it … the other problem was that I always thought that the rise in property prices, umm … particularly in the early ’70s, was one of the reasons for the danger of like, society getting slightly destabilised with the dislike between local people and people coming in ...
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RR Hmm.
Mr M ... and the problem was, I thought, that there was something which was happening in England anyway, and it was being blamed here … I mean, almost entirely on people coming in. And umm … I mean, basically what happened was, it followed the economics in England, except it followed it about a year later – it was still rising here in about ’73, but by ’74, when they brought in the Act, there was quite a serious slump in property.
RR Hmm. We had the business of the burning of them down.
SL Interesting [unclear].
RR There was ‘F ...’ whatever it was called …
SL F.S.F.O.
RR No, no ... that was later, this was Fo Halloo …
Mr M Fo Halloo, yes.
SL Fo Halloo, sorry.
RR ... and Mr Binstock had some houses in Ballasalla burnt down.
Mr M That’s right, yes, I think, yea … it’s very ...
RR Mr Binstock … umm ... did you act for Mr Binstock?
Mr M Yea.
RR Well, so I won’t ask! (laughter) Mr Binstock was one of the colourful, controversial figures.
Mr M Well, our firm acted, but Colin Fick would have dealt with him almost exclusively.
SL We’ve got a couple of very good poems on him. 38
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RR Umm … I’m sure there were some very good poems on Binstock – very easy, and there was a Fee Fee or Mee Mee, Marchioness of …
Mr M Oh, Mee Mee Marchioness of Queensbury, yes.
SL Mee Mee.
RR Yes ...
Mr M Yes.
RR ... who has, I think – well, she stopped trying to stop people going down to a beach upon which …
Mr M That’s right, that was down …
RR ... which she swam for a long time …
Mr M Yes, that’s right.
RR She blocked the road, she was … she was in a hideous bungalow, on … north of Peel …
Mr M That’s right, that’s right.
RR ... and she had things written on her house.
Mr M That’s right, that’s umm … yes. Umm, it all … again, it had almost died with the slump.
RR Yes, although … it … 1987 when we had a bit – a whole lot more pressure I think.
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR The F.S.O. – F.O. variety of the same thing happening again …
Mr M Oh yes. 39
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RR ... we’ve got it again, now, with this attempt by Mr Karran, with his highly critical and analytic mind …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... introducing this [unclear] of a property tax …
Mr M Oh God.
RR ... which I think Philip Dearden has conclusively got rid of, which would have been in this year’s budget ...
Mr M Really?
RR ... but it was in the budget.
Mr M Of course it was, yes [unclear].
RR But it was full of anomalies and would have caught all sorts of people.
Mr M Hmm.
RR There is provision in the 1970 Taxing Acts for the assessor to regard something as trading if it has the nature of trading.
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR He doesn’t need all this stuff …
Mr M No!
RR ... he can actually do it where people are systematically doing it.
Mr M Yes, it’s always been the case.
RR The real problem is where one man has a house, does it up, gets the next one, does it up, gets the next one ...
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Mr M Well, this is one of Mark Solly’s arguments – always against Land Speculation Tax, because he said, ‘Look, the people you want to get, you can actually get under the Income Tax Acts – if you’re doing things in the nature of trade. If you’ve got some poor chap who’s sort of wanting to sell a house in Port Erin and move to Ramsey, to sort of lop him for about 20% tax, it would be completely ludicrous.’
RR That’s right. It was worse in England ...
End of side 1
Mr M Well it’s lovely to see you.
RR Well, it’s always nice to see you.
Mr M I hope it’s of some help, anyway, Roger.
RR Oh yes, anything that illuminates, ‘cos some of the … some of the stuff is … is – that I have is … listening to people when I happen to be here …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and the people I would listen to were not the professionals, you know, people like Patrick Moore …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... who I chatted to, on the one hand, and trying to work back from what I saw at the time … appeared …
Mr M It was very – what I remember very much then, of course, it was umm … it was a very much smaller profession. Umm … it was … umm – and the people at the top of the profession, was quite … quite senior. For instance, our president is a gentleman, for that first ten years that I was in practice for, called Mr Eric Fargher ...
RR Oh I know Eric Fargher.
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Mr M ... and Eric was like … and he was president … at the time he must have been about 82, and our vice president was Deemster Eason, and it was felt that he shouldn’t be the Vice President of the Law Society because he was the Deemster, but … he didn’t … he didn’t see that much at all, (laughter) so you know. You didn’t get much sort of movement and change at the top of the Law Society because Eric, eventually, due to sort of Henry Kelly’s umm … ability to sort of umm …
RR Machinations. (laughter)
Mr M ... he did ... you know, his negotiating ability, and his diplomatic tact, Eric was sort of made the patron of the society, which was splendid, (laughter) set a reception at Ballaqueenie, and then Henry became the president. But, you know, it took – I mean, Henry must have been nearly 80 before he became President of the Isle Man Law Society.
RR No, it’s much more sensible now. (laughter)
Mr M Well it is, I mean, it’s …
RR What ...
Mr M ... because it’s a tremendous job that they have now – I mean, they work terribly hard at it.
RR How many advocates are there now?
Mr M About – nearly 200.
RR Golly, that is a lot. We’ve got over 400 accountants, I think …
Mr M Yes. I think … certainly 160-170 … you know.
RR I find that absolutely amazing … but that’s … something else … I mean, well into the 1980s it was still …
Mr M Oh, very much so.
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RR Really quite a small number.
Mr M It is, it was, and … and people just sort of did – I mean, I mean, people like Mark Solly … the umm … people like that were claiming … one of the claims in the early ‘80s was that the profession was inadequate to suit the needs of the developing economic sector. It certainly wasn’t in the forefront of the government – the forefront really came from the accountants.
RR Well, we were doing that – a lot of that sort of development work in financial services, that’s probably true.
Mr M But again, you see, the lawyers, because none of us were trained in taxation matters, I mean, occasionally an odd lawyer might get into taxation, but that would actually make a disaster from what I saw, because they hadn’t a clue what they were doing.
RR Except for John Cummings …
Mr M Yes, John did.
RR ... he actually did do quite …
Mr M Yes, he did …
RR ... was very innovative …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... and Charles Cain, I think, has always worked well with John Cummings.
Mr M He has, yes. I’ve always got on very well with them.
RR Charles Cain is also a great thinker of ideas.
Mr M Yes. No, John really did have an interest in it and did specialise in it.
RR But I think he’s the only one.
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Mr M John was the only one.
RR I never dealt with John …
Mr M No.
RR ... in that sense …
Mr M Yes.
RR ... in the sort of tax plans stuff … we … we – Jim Cain said, ‘I never did any work with …’ Were you there, or was that? … ‘I never gave it …’ – Pannells never gave any work to Cains or they wouldn’t work with Cains because they didn’t like the style of what was going on.
Mr M Yes, yes.
RR It says here – they’ve got the numbers here, funnily enough, in this thing you’ve just given me. Umm … accountants went from 52 to 141 … between 1970 and 1982. Err … in 1982 there are 28 practicing members of the Manx Bar.
SL Gosh! 28.
Mr M They’re useful figures, those, aren’t they?
SL Absolutely ... absolutely.
RR Very useful, yes … I’ve got my Clothier thing somewhere – I’ll look in there and see – I’ve got some more numbers … I’ve still got mine. Anyway, that’s most helpful.
Mr M I hope – it’s lovely to see you anyway, I hope …
RR Very nice.
Mr M ... I hope that umm…
RR Umm … it all helps … I mean, it’s not going to be a mighty book, and it’s 44
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things like the social effects of people coming through to the Island and so on … is part of the thing and it’s not just the finance sector …
Mr M No. RR ... it’s the investments, ‘cos it’s all bound up together to a large extent. And it’s not going to be a handbook of what happened to the finance sector, in the sense, like Mark Solly’s books where you’ve got every detail several times in each volume.
Mr M Yes, that’s right, that’s right.
RR Yes. When’s your next cricket match?
Mr M Well, I – the next cricket match is going to be in Barbados in umm …
RR That can’t be right!!!
Mr M ... in April …’cos I’m going to the World Cup, you know.
RR In April. END OF INTERVIEW
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