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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF COURT

Douglas, Tuesday, 11th July 2000 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: Welcome to Schoolchildren The (Hon N Q Cringle). In the Council: the Attorney-General (Mr W J H Corlett The President: Hon. members, we also welcome into QC), Hon C M Christian, Messrs E A Crowe, our public gallery this morning those children from Albert D F K Delaney, J R Kniveton, E G Lowey, Dr E J Mann, Road School. We hope that you have enjoyed your visit Messrs J N Radcliffe and G H Waft, with Mr T A Bawden around our buildings this morning. Clerk of the Council.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon J D Q Cannan) Bills for Signature (Michael); Mr L I Singer and Hon A R Bell (Ramsey); Mr R E Quine OBE (Ayre); Mrs H Hannan (Peel); The President: We have two Bills for signature, hon. Hon W A Gilbey (Glenfaba); Hon S C Rodan (); members. If you are agreeable we will continue our Hon D North (Middle); Mr P Karran, Hon R K Corkin business whilst they are being signed. and Mr G T Cannell (); Messrs J R Houghton and R W Henderson (Douglas North); Hon D C Cretney and Members: Agreed. Mr A C Duggan (Douglas South); Mr R P Braidwood and Mrs B J Cannell (Douglas East); Mr J P Shimmin and Hon A F Downie (Douglas West); Hon J A Brown (Castletown); Hon D J Gelling (Malew and Santon); Papers Laid before the Court Sir CBE LLD (hc), Mrs P M Crowe and Mr J Rimington (); with Prof T StJ N Bates, Clerk The President: I call upon the Clerk to lay papers. of Tynwald. The Clerk: I lay before the Court:

Registration of Business Names Act 1918 - The Chaplain of the took the prayers. Registration of Business Names (Fees and Duties) Rules 2000 [SD No 4/00]

Apologies for Absence Fees and Duties Act 1989 - Companies (Fees and Duties) (Amendment) Order The President: Hon. members, this morning we have 2000 [SD No 239/00] apologies for absence from the Lord Bishop, who is away Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) Order on Church business. 2000 [SD No 6/00]

Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985 - Welcome to Mr J Rimington MHK Licensing and Registration of Vehicles (Fees) Regulations 2000 [SD No 398/00] Vehicle Duty Order 2000 [SD No 399/00] The President: Hon. members, it is with pleasure that we welcome to Tynwald the new member for Rushen, Mr Gaming, Betting and Lotteries Act 1988 - John Rimington, taking the seat that I had the privilege to Licensed Betting Offices (Opening Hours) Order occupy. It was therefore with particular interest that I 2000 [SD No 419/00] watched the unfolding events and we congratulate you sincerely on your recent election success and are confident Social Security Act 2000 - that you will make a valuable contribution to both the Social Security Act 2000 (Amendment) Order 2000 constituency and the Island during your years here. [SD No 364/00] Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 12) Members: Hear, hear. Order 2000 [SD No 366/00]

Apologies for Absence Welcome to Mr J Rimington MHK Welcome to Schoolchildren Bills for Signature Papers Laid before the Court T880 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 13) Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 Order 2000 [SD No 367/00] Report by the Department of Local Government and • Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 14) the Environment on the Report of the Select Order 2000 [SD No 368/00] Committee on the Petition for Redress Grievance Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 15) of Jean Noreen Thompson Order 2000 [SD No 369/00] June 2000 Progress Report on the Housing Policy Review Report 1999 Pension Schemes Act 1995 - Annual Report 2000 of the Standing Committee on Pensions Schemes Order 2000 [SD No 365/00] Economic Initiatives

Dangerous Goods Act 1928 - Note - the following items are not the subject of motions Dangerous Goods (Carriage by Road) on the Order Paper (Consequential Provisions) Order 2000 [SD No 387/00] Road Traffic Act 1985 - Road Vehicles (Authorisation of Special Types) Merchant Shipping Act 1985 - General Order 2000 [SD No 323/00] Merchant Shipping (Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims) (Application) Order Bank Holidays Act 1989 - 2000 [SD No 386/00] Bank Holidays (2001) Order 2000 [SD No 389/00]

Highways Act 1986 - Rent and Rating Appeals Act 1986 - Highway Extinguishment (Corner Summerhill Rating Appeals Rules 2000 [SD No 359/00] Road and Alberta Drive, Onchan) Order 2000 • [SD No 340/00] Shops Act 2000 - Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985 - Shops (Prescribed Forms) Order 2000 Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 2000 [SD No 329/00] [SD No 391/00] United Nations - Road Traffic Act 1985 - United Nations (Sanctions) (Amendment) Order Road Vehicles carrying Dangerous Goods 2000 [SI 2000/1106] (Maintenance and Use) Regulations 2000 [SD No 403/00] Appointed Day Orders - Road Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) Acquisition of Land (Amendment) Act 2000 (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2000 (Appointed Day) Order 2000 [SD No 402/00] [SD No 404/00] Shops Act (Appointed Day) Order 2000 [SD No 328/00] Customs and Excise Act 1993 - Dual-Use and Related Goods (Export Control) Reports - (Amendment) Regulations 2000 (Application) Accounts for the year Order 2000 [SD No 299/00] ended 31st March 2000 Public Lottery Trust: Fifteenth Report and Statement Acquisition of Land Act 1984 - Home Loss Payments Regulations 2000 of Accounts for the year ended 31st January 2000 Isle of Man Data Protection Registrar: Annual • [SD No 401/00] Report 1999 - 2000 Income Tax Act 1970 - Income Tax (Nursing Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2000 [SD No 390/00] Ballakilley, Rushen — Acquisition of Land — Question by Mr Rimington Department of Local Government and the Environment - The President: Now, hon. members, we turn to our House Purchase Assistance and Refurbishment (Amendment) Scheme 2000 [GC No 28/00] question paper, question number 1, and I call upon the hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington. Department of Tourism and Leisure - Tourism Development Fund Scheme 2000 Mr Rimington: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the [GC No 29/00] Chief Minister:

Reports - Will your government include a commitment in your E-Commerce Strategy: A Report by the Council of next policy document to seek to acquire the land at Ministers July 2000 Ballakilley, Rushen, mindful of - Ballakilley, Rushen — Acquisition of Land — Question by Mr Rimington • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T881

(a) the formal request of the joint Southern Now, as regards administrative arrangements, these have Commissioners to the Treasury of 30th July not yet been determined. The legislation calls for the 1999; and appointment of a registrar and there will need to be an administration established. Now, whether the registrar and (b) the desirability of integrated planning with the administration will form part of the Department of the southern healthcare facility? Trade and Industry or part of the Chief Secretary's Office linked to immigration control or whether it will be a The President: The Chief Minister to reply. separate stand-alone unit has yet to be determined. Now, this issue will be addressed when we have a clearer idea Mr Gelling: Mr President, I am not, of course, in a of whether Tynwald supports our proposals for position to make any commitment in advance of the policy management of population growth and what final form document or indeed next year's budget, on a specific land the legislation will take. purchase such, as the hon. member has suggested. However, I understand the importance of this area to the Mr Delaney: Mr President, could the Chief Minister people and local authorities of the south of the Island. I tell me is it not true then, given the answer he has just have therefore asked the Department of Local Government given, that this Bill is nothing more than an enabling Bill and the Environment to let the Council of Ministers have which does not have any policy in it other than the fact a report on the discussions that have taken place between that we may do something maybe at some time in the future government departments, local authorities and the at a date undecided? members in respect of this land. The Council of Ministers will then consider how best to carry forward the Mr Gelling: Mr President, yes, it is the policy of consideration of whether the land should be required for residence control, that is the policy, and this is the vehicle public purposes. which will enable orders to come forward to enable us to control residence if it is required. Mr Rimington: Mr President, may I just thank the Chief Minister for the positive nature of his reply. Mr Quine: Mr President, given that areas of infrastructure are clearly overloaded now and with net immigration in the order of 800 per annum, is the early Residence Bill — Question by Mr Quine introduction of the actual scheme not due now and if that is not the case, if the Chief Minister is of the view that that The President: Item 2, hon. members, I call on the hon. is not the case, will he take this opportunity first to state member for Ayre, Mr Quine: categorically and clearly that he has no intention to effect residency control, because that would appear to be the case, Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. May I first and secondly, that he does not intend to bring about any congratulate the hon. member for Rushen in getting off to extraordinary measures to deal with this problem? So let such a fast and meaningful start. (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) the public fully understand the position. With your leave, sir, I would ask the Chief Minister: Mr Gelling: In reverse order, Mr President, no, it is With regard to the proposed Residence Bill - not a fact that we have no intention of bringing in residence control. I have said quite clearly that this particular Bill is (a) what criteria are to be applied in determining the vehicle that will enable us to do so and basically the whether or not to grant residence; and hon. member is asking for a scheme now. If that had been possible, that is what would have happened, but we felt it (b) what structure is to be put in place for its was appropriate and helpful to members to bring forward administration and enforcement? the Bill for its first reading, to allow members to have the summer to address that Bill and to enable us to have a The President: The Chief Minister again to reply. seminar when we will be able to answer the questions of members prior to it coming back for its second reading. Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, I am not in a position to offer a definite answer to either part of this particular The President: We go on to item 3, hon. members, and question. I call upon the hon. member for Douglas - Now, as regards criteria for determining residence, some of these are set down in the Bill, but the approach which Mr Delaney: Mr President, I was on my feet, sir, and underlies the Residence Bill is that the criteria will be the light was on. variable over time and will be varied according to the prevailing circumstances, depending on whether we need The President: I appreciate the light was on and I take to be more restrictive or more liberal at any particular time. the point, but in fact that Bill is now before the Keys and I That being the case it is not possible to say at this stage think we need not extend the Question Time into a policy what the criteria will be at any point in the future. debate on the Bill. • Residence Bill — Question by Mr Quine T882 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

OSPAR Convention — the other countries that voted for the motion and we have Question by Mrs Cannell congratulated those two countries, Denmark and Ireland, • who were the ones that we corresponded with. The President: Item 3, the hon. member Mrs Cannell. Mrs Connell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to Maintenance of School Buildings • ask the Chief Minister: — Question by Mr Houghton

With respect to the annual meeting of the OSPAR The President: We go on to item 4, hon. members, and convention held in Copenhagen in June 2000 - I call on the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Houghton.

(a) did you, prior to the meeting, send copies of Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave the resolution on the closure of the Sellafield to ask the Minister for the Treasury: nuclear facility, passed unanimously by this hon. Court at its June 2000 sitting, to the Do you consider that the present budgetary governments of Denmark and Ireland; and allocation to the Department of Education for the maintenance of school buildings is adequate? (b) did you arrange for a representative of the Isle of Man Government to attend the The President: I call on the Minister for the Treasury meeting as an observer? to reply. The President: Again I call on the Chief Minister to Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. It is the • reply. responsibility of the Minister for Education, supported by his colleagues Dr Mann and Mr Henderson, to determine Mr Gelling: Mr President, neither the resolution of the priorities for spending for his department within the Tynwald as approved in June nor the original motion overall resources made available to him through the budget proposed by the hon. member called upon the Council of approved by this hon. Court. Ministers to copy the Tynwald resolution to the governments of Denmark and Ireland, nor for the Isle of Mr Houghton: Mr President, is the hon. minister aware Man Government to seek observer status at the OSPAR that his department, the Treasury, cut the budget of the convention meeting. planned maintenance for the Department of Education by Attending the Copenhagen meeting of OSPAR with some 47 per cent in the financial year 1993-94 and from observer status was not an option and I gave no undertaking then on allowed only the usual incremental increases each on that. However, I did give an undertaking that we would successive year? How can he justify, therefore, the rather send copies of our letter, addressed to the UK Government, poor appearance of some school buildings and in particular to the governments of Denmark and Ireland. That the Vic Hallam style of building, one of which is located undertaking has been honoured and I might add that since in his own constituency, which is seriously suffering from the conclusion of the Copenhagen meeting I have written rotten window frames with the glass falling out, in this to the Danes and the Irish congratulating them on their day and age when his department is awash with cash? efforts and welcoming the decision that was taken. Mr President, it is very easy to cherry- Mrs Cannell: Mr President, bearing in mind that at the Mr Corkill: June sitting of Tynwald during debate members made a pick on one particular issue when in fact a budget is about striking a balance for all departments and all issues, so I • specific request to the Chief Minister to make such representation to have an observer in place, in view of that do not think it is appropriate that I be drawn into discussing is the Chief Minister satisfied that he has fulfilled the desire individual elements of any department's budget allocations of this hon. Court expressed last June, and further, is he in isolation. I have said on many occasions it is all about aware that at the OSPAR convention the United Kingdom striking a balance. and France abstained from voting on a motion that was A good percentage of the budget of the Isle of Man calling for an end to nuclear processing and thereby if he Government is towards the purpose of education and I is aware of that, is he satisfied that the United Kingdom is reiterate that it is in fact the job of those members in that properly representing our view? department to establish their priorities. I would make a general comment that of course with Mr Gelling: Mr President, first of all, June, I am afraid, buildings that the Department of Education is charged with was not the time we could have requested or put forward looking after it is a never-ending job to maintain those an application because you have to give 12 weeks' notice buildings and I will give them my full support in their of an application to be an observer, so therefore in June it endeavour to come to that conclusion so that they are able was too late to do that, so therefore that is something that to maintain their buildings. I could not do. With regard to the budget cut, as the hon. member has I am well aware of the situation with regard to the UK alluded to, in 1992-93 I think he said, that was at a time and France because they abstained, but I also am aware of when the economy was not doing particularly well and

OSPAR Convention — Question by Mrs Cannell Maintenance of School Buildings — Question by Mr Houghton • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T883

there were standstill budgets throughout the whole of location of houses, all of which determine their rental value. • government, not just the Department of Education. So, as As therefore the discrepancies that the member refers to I said, it is a matter of balance. already occur in practice, any percentage increase in the water rate will have no greater effect percentage-wise than Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, a supplementary. Would the it does now, so increases will fall equitably on domestic Minister for the Treasury not agree that it is important that properties. these departments prioritise the maintenance of these Treasury does intend to review the rateable value of schools and the priority of the building and not in the areas properties when the new Rating and Valuation Bill included that they themselves represent? in the legislative programme is introduced into the branches. This Bill may eliminate some of these Mr Corkill: I do not want to be drawn into this sort of discrepancies. Whilst property values, be they capital or debate, Mr President. It is a duty, as we all know as rental, determine the method of paying for water supplies members of this hon. Court, as we do our functions as there will always be differences of cost between different members of departments, to prioritise spending in the right types of property, just as there are differences in rates sequence. There will always be a list of things that need payable to local authorities for local services, such as doing longer than the budget available to do that and it is a household refuse collection and this depends upon the size matter of doing as much of that list as possible with the of the property, not the receipt of the actual service. resources available. I would also refer the hon. member to my reply to a I, like the hon. member, want to see our schools being question from the hon. member, colleague from Onchan, maintained properly. I also want to see them being staffed Mr Karran, in the House of Keys on 25th May 1999, which properly with the right numbers of teachers. I want to see gave a very comprehensive answer on rateable values on them with the right educational standards. I want to see the basis of their calculations. At that time I was also asked • them in the right parts of the Island to provide a service if I found the arrangements satisfactory to which I replied, for our community and that is what the Department of `Yes, until there is an all-Island revaluation that changes Education does. the present tone of the list to a new one based on modern rent and values.' Mr Houghton: Mr President, I thank the hon. member for his full and comprehensive reply. May I ask that the Mr Singer: Can I ask the hon. minister, is it not a fact, hon. Minister for the Treasury does go back, though, and though, that similar properties in the country have a rateable look at the budgeting restraints for 1993-94 and increase value less than a similar property in the town and therefore them for the next financial year pro rata? Thank you. when you are adding rate on a percentage basis those in the towns are paying a great deal more cash than those in Mr Corkill: As we are all aware, Mr President, we are the country and that in raising this annual water rate entering into the policy round of discussions and I am sure percentage-wise, then the balance is unfair and will he the maintenance of school buildings will be on that agenda, therefore look at making an arrangement, whilst there are as it is every time. these large annual water rate increases, to equally divide between all domestic properties so that everybody pays the same rather than some people taking the burden a lot Water Rate Increases — more than other people? Question by Mr Singer Mr Corkill: The hon. member has asked this question of me from time to time and I think the hon. member must The President: Item 5, the hon. member for Ramsey, make his mind up as to how he expects people to pay for • Mr Singer. their water. Does he expect them to pay for it on a metered basis, on a per capita poll tax type basis, or indeed on the Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to basis that we do have which is on rateable value? And we ask the Minister for the Treasury: must appreciate, I think, that rates are a representation of the rental value of the particular property, and as I have Given the Water Authority policy of imposing said, we are long overdue but we are about to commence a significant annual increases in the water rate, will the rating revaluation throughout the Island and I hope that Treasury ensure that these annual increases fall equitably will actually put some confidence back into the rating on domestic properties, given the wide discrepancies in system. their rateable value? The hon. member asks for a charge per dwelling. I would suggest if that was the case that many smaller properties The President: Again the Minister for the Treasury to would actually pay a lot more for their water than they reply. actually do at the moment. I understand that in the legislation which was proposed Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. There are in the Isle of Man Water Authority strategy document, variations, but I would say not wide discrepancies, as stated which I believe was unanimously approved by this hon. in the question, in rateable values around the Island. These Court, there is a suggestion of the ability to introduce a occur because there are variations in the size, value and standing charge, but that will require an amendment. There • Water Rate Increases — Question by Mr Singer T884 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 will be under those circumstances a Water Act Mr Delaney: Aye, on purpose. (Amendment) Bill. • At the end of the day one could get drawn into an all- Mr Corkill: - on the ability to pay. I know of certain Island rating debate on this one issue, but in fact it is not a members of the public who may well be considered to be single issue about water, it is an issue about how we arrive well off who actually live in very small properties and vice at a rateable value and then the other aspects flow from versa. that decision. Thank you, Mr President. One has to find and stick with a particular policy on how we are to raise revenues to pay for such services and Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, a supplementary. Would the it is part of the water strategy that the water rate should Minister for the Treasury not support the fact that you have rise ahead of inflation, and the hon. member has mentioned a situation where the same identical house out in the sticks, a figure of 15 per cent. That was quite clearly stated in the which costs more money to supply water to, can have a 30 Isle of Man Water Authority document, which this hon. or 40 or 50 per cent discount on the rateable value than the Court scrutinised, that in order to pay for the massive house that is in Douglas or Onchan, and is that not the infrastructure, the new filtration plant which is required, problem that we have at the present time, that the discounts there would be a greater rise in water rates in the next few do not reflect the reality that the house out in the sticks is years, which would then tail off again as the programme more likely worth five times more than it is in Mona Street? got going over the 20-year period. At the end of the day I believe that what is required to Mr Corkill: Well, here we are about the rating system, put confidence back into this situation is a revaluation of Mr President. At the end of the day the hon. member says rateable values throughout the Island so that people do `identical house'. What does he mean by 'identical'? Does have confidence that they represent a fair value, and that he mean three bedrooms, the same roof, the same layout, is what Treasury has already stated it will do. et cetera - • The President: I return to the original questioner for a Mr Karran: Yes. final supplementary.

Mr Corkill: - or does he mean the same rental value on Mr Singer: Would the minister accept that this question the market as determined by the rating process? Let us be has got nothing to do with rental values, it has got nothing fair, rates is just a way of raising revenue so that services to do with the revue of the system of rating, but that it is to can be provided, and it is a system that has provided us do with the fact that because of the massive increases that well over a number of years. are being placed by the Water Authority, for understandable If the hon. member is saying that rates should be on a reasons, over a period of years, those people who happen capital value in terms of the capital value of that property, to live in highly rateable value houses will be paying for a then you will still have discrepancies throughout the Island lot more of the infrastructure work than those people who because we all know that houses in one part of the Island, are in houses with lower rateable values and therefore it identical in structure to a house in another part of the Island, should be more equalised? will have different capital values because of the marketplace and the capital values that there are achieved Mr Corkill: I think the hon. member has just said that for sales of such properties. people living in higher rateable value properties will pay So we really have to be careful, I think, that we do not more for their water, and I agree with that, Mr President. go down some blind alleys on this because it is easy to say `an identical house', but in what terminology, I would put the question back to the hon. member. Incinerator Project — Additional Cost — • Mr Delaney: The minister, in his comprehensive reply Question by Mr Duggan to the unjust situation which we continue to have, more so with the 15 per cent increases, not agree with me, bearing The President: Item 6, the hon. member for Douglas in mind that some people of very poor incomes are South, Mr Duggan. subsidising very wealthy people living in the country, just by choice in a lot of cases, would it not be better to base Mr Duggan: Mr President, I beg leave, sir, to ask the this charge basically on tax and therefore we get somewhere Minister for the Treasury: into getting an equal system in the Island? On what basis did you arrive at the figure of Mr Corkill: I believe that instead of rates the hon. £150,000 additional cost for every month's delay in member has just suggested a local income tax. progressing the incinerator project?

Mr Delaney: No, tax. We have not got a local income The President: Again it is for the Minister for the tax. Tax. Treasury to reply. The hon. member Mr Corkill.

Mr Corkill: Sorry, Mr President, I misunderstand what Mr Corkill: Mr President, at the last sitting of this hon. the hon. member is saying - Court I advised members of the likely impact of the Incinerator Project — Additional Cost — Question by Mr Duggan • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T885

financial implications of any delay to the incinerator member has stated is that this Court agreed to a compulsory • project. This estimate of cost had been presented earlier purchase of the said land and that that situation is that day at a special meeting of the Council of Ministers, progressing under the legislation and will inevitably be held on 20th June, when the project team for the incinerator completed at some stage. advised that any delay beyond the end of June would attract With regard to the costs involved, at this stage of the a cost penalty of £150,000 per month. preparation of the incinerator project it is not dependent Whilst there has been no formal contract entered into on that land being available today, in fact these costs are by the Department of Local Government and the in terms of working the scheme up to the point where full Environment for the scheme, members will be aware that planning details are approved. the preferred bidder has since been identified as United Waste Limited. The original timescale established for the project Radio Transmitting Station at Cranstal, provided for the return of tenders in January of this year on the basis of a fixed price for the design and build Bride — Interference — element, which would be open and available for acceptance Question by Mr Quine for a period of 180 days. This is a common standard for government contracts. The President: On to item 7 and the hon. member for Given that the tender price would effectively expire on Ayre, Mr Quine. 19th July and if it were not to prove possible to maintain the tender figure at the existing level, the options available Mr Quine: I beg leave to ask HM Attorney-General: would be twofold, firstly a complete re-tender exercise, or secondly, indexation of the fixed price submitted by the (1) With regard to the proposed radio transmitting • station at Cranstal, Bride, can you confirm that the preferred bidder. On the basis that the latter option would be acceptable Radio Communication Agency of the United to United Waste Limited the cost implication for such delay Kingdom Department of Trade and Industry, as the was assessed on the following basis. Taking the capital licensing authority, would be responsible for costs of the incinerator project to be approximately £40 ensuring that transmission did not cause million, together with an estimated inflation rate of 4.5 interference to communication and other electrical per cent per annum, the calculation of additional costs due devices; and to delay are of the order of £1.8 million per annum or some £150,000 per month. (2) what assistance would be available to users of I am sure members will appreciate that the exact sum electrical communication and other electrical will depend upon the underlying rate of inflation prevailing devices suffering from interference in pursuing their over the period, which will largely be based upon the complaints and are you satisfied that the Radio construction costs index rather than that relative to retail Communications Agency have the authority to deal prices. effectively with any such complaints? The hon. Court may also wish to note that there may well be other additional costs incurred as a result of delays The President: I call on HM Attorney-General to reply. to this scheme which are yet to be fully evaluated. Such elements of cost relate to the production of the report The Attorney-General: Thank you, Mr President. With addressing the public health concerns, additional media reference to part (1) of the question I can confirm as a and public relations activity to inform the community of result of advice I have received that the Radio • the report findings, but perhaps more importantly, the Communications Agency of the United Kingdom prolongation of the preparation and design phase prior to Department of Trade and Industry is, under the terms of the submission for detailed planning approvals. the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 of Parliament, as I am advised that the Minister for the Department of extended to the Island, the licensing authority responsible Local Government and the Environment is fully aware of for ensuring that the transmissions from the proposed radio these issues and will address the implications arising transmitting station do not cause interference to other users therefrom in due course. of Spectrum. In respect of part (2) of the question I can confirm, again Mr Duggan: A supplementary, Mr President. Could I on the same basis, that the Radio Communications Agency ask the Treasury minister is he satisfied with the has the necessary powers and authority to deal with any Department of Local Government going ahead with the such complaints to the extent of insuring that the transmitter incinerator when they have not even got the land, because operates within the technical parameters of the licence £150,000 a month is going to cost a small fortune? granted to it.

The President: I do not want to move into an incinerator Mr Quine: Mr President, can the learned Attorney also debate, but the Treasury minister can answer. confirm that therefore any complaint in relation to interference with electrical appliances attributable to the Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President, for that guidance. waveband allocation would have to be directed to the UK My understanding of the land in question that the hon. Radio Communications Agency, and secondly, can he

• Radio Transmitting Station at Cranstal, Bride — Interference — Question by Mr Quine T886 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 advise as to whether that agency would be subject to Radio Transmission Facility at Cranstal, judicial review in relation to its actions, and if so, whether Bride — Interference with Lighthouse • the actions would lie with the Manx courts or the UK Systems — Question by Mr Quine courts? The President: We turn then to item 8 on the order paper The Attorney-General: Mr President, these are and again I call on the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. technical questions and I shall do my best to respond. My understanding is that the role of the agency, in responding Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to to complaints of interference, extends in the first instance ask the Minister for Transport: to establishing the source of interference and determining whether that source is operating within the terms of its (1) Are you satisfied that the proposed radio Wireless Telegraphy Act licence. I am not sure to that extent transmission facility at Cranstal, Bride, which whether the waveband allocation is a matter which is would be required to use a cross field antenna, entirely within the jurisdiction of the agency. As I say, it is would not interfere with communication systems the role of the agency to determine the source of operated by the lighthouse authorities; interference and determine whether that source is within the terms of the Wireless Telegraphy Act licence. If it is (2) what, if any, studies have been carried out by your not, then the agency has the powers to ensure that corrective department in this regard; action is taken. If, however, it is operating within the terms of the licence and interference is still being caused to (3) have you consulted with the lighthouse authorities; domestic appliances et cetera, then it is a matter of ensuring and that the complainant's equipment is manufactured to the (4) has your department made, or does it intend to • standards required to ensure electromagnetic compatibility. make, a submission to the planning inquiry So, as I say, these are matters of technical import. established to consider this proposed development? As to whether the acts or omissions of the agency are susceptible to judicial review, I doubt that. It is a matter I The President: I turn to the Minister for Transport, the would like to perhaps look into further and let the hon. hon. member for Castletown, Mr Brown, to reply. member know the result of my research. Since the agency is established under the legislation of Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. First I would the United Kingdom, I suggest that it would be the court clarify that the Northern Lighthouse Board, which is a UK of the United Kingdom which would have jurisdiction but authority, is the responsible authority for the provision of again it is something I would like to research further. lighthouses on the Isle of Man. My department staff have been in communication with Mr Quine: Could you also confirm, sir, that if this the Northern Lighthouse Board regarding the proposed facility was to be established and subject to the operator radio transmission facility at Bride and they have advised complying with the UK RCA licence, by virtue of the UK my department staff that they are satisfied that the proposed legislation an Island resident could not sustain a claim by long-wave radio transmitter will not interfere with or way of compensation or damages in respect of the operator? compromise the Northern Lighthouse Board's communication system or their operations. The Attorney-General: Mr President, I can say from My department has made enquiries into the possible my own experience of a case in the courts that in fact a effects that this long-wave radio antenna could have on person who is affected by interference does indeed have a the safety of navigation around the Island due to the • claim in nuisance and/or negligence against the person who possible interference with radio navigation aids and, in is creating the interference. particular, global positioning systems. As a result of these enquiries, my department is satisfied that the measures in place will ensure that the proposed long-wave radio antenna Mr Quine: If I could just seek for clarification on that at Bride will not cause a danger to navigation due to point, I am asking the Attorney in respect of a complaint interference with radio and navigational aids. related to the wavelength allocation, in other words My department does not intend to make a formal particular to the licence issued by the RCA. Does the UK submission with regard to this issue to the planning inquiry. legislation allow for a claim against the operator on that However, a copy of a letter issued by my department to basis? the firm of advocates representing the applicant with regard to this matter has been sent to the secretary to the planning The Attorney-General: Mr President, I am venturing inquiry. That letter confirmed that my department is into unchartered territory so far as I am concerned. It is a satisfied that the proposed long-wave antenna at Bride will very technical area. My understanding is that provided that not cause a danger to navigation due to interference with the operator of the licence is operating within the scope of radio and navigational aids. his licence, operating entirely within his licence, which includes the wavelength, I do not believe that there would Mr Quine: Could the hon. minister advise me as to the be any cause of action. date when the lighthouse authority advised that they were Radio Transmission Facility at Cranstal, Bride — Interference with Lighthouse Systems — Question by Mr Quine • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T887

satisfied that there would be no interference because I am potential developers of the policy change when they have • conscious of a letter which I have here which refers to made enquiries in relation to land which they propose to concerns and it used the expression of being 'perilously develop where access to a main sewerage system is not close to the GPS frequency'? So could he just, for the available. The planning office has also been advised of record, state the date on which that confirmation was given? the new policy criteria.

Mr Brown: Mr President, I have not go that date with Mr Lowey: Would the minister not agree that it would me, I am afraid, but what I can say is that the information have been advisable to advise the Court of the change of that has gone from my department, based on seeking advice policy? with the relevant UK authorities et cetera, is that they are Secondly, is it not a fact that the new policy which is in satisfied that this will not be a problem and I am sure that operation is giving stand-alone drainage facility to the Northern Lighthouse Board in their own right would speculative high-cost housing and not to the problem areas have a right to appear at the planning inquiry, as, of course, of first-time buyers' houses and surely the policy should if they were concerned it would interfere with their be to emphasise first-time buyers' houses getting this lighthouses, they would make that view known. facility as opposed to speculative high-cost building? Now, I am not aware of that and certainly as far as the GPS transmission is concerned, my advice is that the Mr Cannell: Hear, hear. situation is changing with regard to GPSs. However, we are satisfied, based on all the information we have been Mr Brown: Mr President, of course the hon. member able to collate, that in fact there is not a problem, and I is making a statement which he knows really is easy to would be interested to see the letter that the hon. member make. We cannot differentiate between whether it is that has if that will help us in asking some further questions type of house or that type of house. As far as the policy is concerned, a decision has been made as an interim solution • over this issue. whilst we have a problem to say that if we are satisfied there is no other alternative and if we are satisfied that a Mr Delaney: Mr President, he has already admitted development should proceed and it is appropriate to have today there has been a change. I will not ask the question. a stand-alone unit, which in itself is not necessarily a cheap option and a cost that will be borne by the actual developer which then of course will be passed on to the purchaser, Stand-Alone Sewerage Works — whether it be somebody with lots of money or somebody Question by Mr Lowey who is after a first-time buyer's house or whatever, then this situation has been made to try and be practical and I The President: Item 9, hon. members. I call on the hon. have to say that I think that in the interim it is a decision member of the Council, Mr Lowey. that the Isle of Man can go with. As far as advising Tynwald is concerned, my Mr Lowey: I beg leave to ask the Minister for Transport, department, like every department of government, makes sir: policy changes every day and this is a decision made by executive government and I have to say that I think that (1) Does your department have a policy on stand-alone the issue certainly was with members from their usual sewerage works; and advice that they get and clearly it is a matter that I do not believe needed to be announced here in this Court. • (2) if so, (a) has the policy changed recently, and (b) when and how was the change made public? The President: Now, I expect, hon. members, not to get involved in a housing debate on this question. The hon. The President: Again, I call on the Minister for member for Onchan, Mr Karran. Transport, the hon. member for Castletown, to reply. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister not agree that allowing for this announcement now this should be a Mr Brown: Mr President, due to the present difficulties green light to the Department of Local Government to be being experienced in relation to the provision of housing able to come back in October with some development for within the Island, earlier this year executive government first-time buyers on the land that is owned by government determined that in an endeavour to assist in meeting the in Ballasalla that we have been waiting for for a long time immediate demand it would, where appropriate, in areas and can he make recommendations to that department to where a main drainage system is not available, permit an come back with some initiative for the south of the Island? interim solution to be considered which may involve the installation of a stand-alone sewerage system. Any system Mr Brown: Mr President, as far as the Department of sought for approval will be required to at least comply Local Government and the Environment progressing with the discharge standards as approved by Tynwald schemes on land at Ballasalla or anywhere else, that is a Court. matter for that minister and I am sure he has heard the In answer to part (2) of the question, my department comments of the hon. member. has not actively publicly promoted the recent policy I would make the point that members should not be too change. We have instead, where appropriate, advised excited about this because it is likely that people who reside

Stand-Alone Sewerage Works — Question by Mr Lowey T888 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11 th JULY 2000 in an area where a stand-alone sewerage treatment plant is Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to ask being proposed are likely not to be too happy about it and the Minister for Home Affairs: • therefore it is potential that it could delay planning applications progressing. So I think members should keep Why was no-one on point duty at Pulrose Bridge that in mind. I think it is also a point to keep in mind that during the road closure on the TT course for the recent there are areas of land that could be developed where mains cycle races? sewerage access is available and therefore it may well be prudent to develop there first. The President: On this occasion we call on the Minister Mr Quine: Can the minister confirm that regarding this for Home Affairs, the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell, policy which he has now advised this hon. Court of, the to reply. request for that change of policy was made two and a half years ago? Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. It has not been the practice of the Isle of Man Constabulary to have a police Mr Brown: Yes, Mr President, I am quite happy to officer perform point duty at Pulrose Bridge during the clarify that and a lot of work went in by my department Ti' course road closures for several years. The reason for who produced a comprehensive report on the whole basis this is that the installation of traffic lights at the Groves of why we felt that we could advance and progress the Road-Castletown Road junction has provided the technical IRIS scheme and also, as the hon. member for Ayre knows because he was Minister for Local Government and the capability of synchronising these lights with those at the Environment at the time, we were endeavouring to Pulrose Road-Peel Road junction. This has improved traffic encourage them to develop land that was already accessible movements in the area to such a degree that in normal to the mains sewer system and I would also say that quite circumstances there are no real delays during the TT course • a bit of the delay was due to inaction by his department at road closures. the time. However, I understand a problem did arise during the recent cycle event when a set of temporary traffic lights The President: A final supplementary on number 9, were installed by the Water Authority opposite the power the hon. member of the Council, Mr Lowey. station. These lights were not synchronised which meant that there were significant delays. (Mr Houghton: Hear, Mr Lowey: Would the minister not agree, to use his own words, the reason for the change is the acute housing hear.) However, this situation would not have been shortage? It would have been easy for the Council of improved by a police officer on point duty at Pulrose Ministers, in giving this directive of change on stand-alone, Bridge. to have just intimated that it would only operate for first- time buyers' houses, thus releasing land. Mr Houghton: Mr President, I thank the hon. minister for his reply. I do understand about the synchronisation of Mr Brown: Mr President, I have been one who has these lights but would he give me an assurance really that been as keen as anybody and I would suggest has done a officers have been on duty during the TT period at this lot to advance the provision of housing for first-time junction in the very recent past, and would he give serious buyers, for people in public sector houses when I was consideration to putting an officer there for the case of the Minister for Local Government and the Environment and smooth flow of traffic during cycle week, as those roads, also in the position I hold now to try and accommodate as Groves Road and Pulrose Road onto Peel Road, are main far as possible the advancement of first-time buyer houses, arterial roads for this time? It would not necessarily require but there are a lot of Manx people out there who also want • second-time buyer houses because of the situation they to be a police officer, a traffic control officer would suffice. are in, and their need is just as great because of the size of their family and I do think we should not discriminate too Mr Bell: No, Mr President, I am not prepared to give much and draw too many fine lines so that we cannot any assurance at this juncture. As I explained in my answer, accommodate the people we all represent, and whether they the situation during this year's cycle week was a fairly are first-time requirements or public sector requirements unique on in that particular area in so far as there was a or second-time buyer requirements, I would have thought problem with the water supply in the area and the Water our duty, as members of this hon. Court, and certainly my Authority themselves were repairing the area and putting duty as minister, is to endeavour to accommodate anybody temporary traffic lights in. One would hope this is not going who requires a house in the Isle of Man. to be a regular occurrence. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) The hon. member is well aware that we have limited, finite resources within the police personnel and we have Point Duty at Pulrose Bridge — to make best use of them and I do not see benefit to the Question by Mr Houghton Island community as a whole if police officers are taken off their regular duty to act as traffic controllers in situations The President: Item 10, the hon. member for Douglas which, in the normal course of events, do not require a North, Mr Houghton. police presence.

Point Duty at Pulrose Bridge — Question by Mr Houghton • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T889

New Prison — Announcement of Site — disagreement as to the extent of the assessment to be Question by Mr Lowey undertaken and which site should be assessed. It was agreed that the extent of the environmental The President: Item 11, the hon. member of the assessment as it related to each site should be decided between the Department of Local Government and the Council, Mr Lowey. Environment and my own department. On 13th March we Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to received a letter from Braddan Commissioners to the effect that they agreed that the White Hoe site should be ask the Minister for Home Affairs: withdrawn from the selection procedure. However, they remained of the opinion that the remaining three sites (1) When does your department propose to announce should be the subject of environmental assessments. the site of the new prison; and The department subsequently wrote to the government departments and asked them for their initial views as to (2) what has delayed the announcement? the viability of the three sites with regard to such matters as drainage, highways, conservation, impact on Manx The President: Again, the Minister for Home Affairs national heritage, communications et cetera. As a result of to reply. those comments, combined with the assessment of the site selection team, which has been validated by the planning Mr Bell: Mr President, my department is currently office, I decided to proceed with the environmental considering environmental assessment reports on two assessment on two sites. This work was commissioned on possible sites. Once I have had the opportunity to consider 12th April this year and the final report is now being these in detail I shall make a decision, which will then considered by my department. require the approval of the Council of Ministers. Therefore at this stage all I can do is reiterate that any I am conscious that this process has taken some time delays have been caused by my decision to listen to the and in many respects this reflects my desire to try and take opinions of others and to strive to seek an agreement. on board all of the concerns and comments which have However, I am sure that all of the additional work which come to the department. This has resulted in a number of has been done is relevant and will cut down on time at the reports being produced. planning stage. In May 1999 I received the first report by HM Prison Service site selection team. This report had concentrated Mr Lowey: I thank the hon. minister for his detailed on sites round the Douglas area and I then specifically reply and I wish him well in unravelling the difficult requested that they consider a further four sites at areas decision when he comes to it. Can he confirm that the four such as Jurby, Knockaloe, Andreas and Ronaldsway, some final sites have all been given the same sort of evaluation, of which were being openly mooted as possible sites by and could I seek that when he goes for the Council of hon. members and indeed the public. This report was Ministers' approval he will consult with the members of received in June 1999 and both of these reports were this Court after the decision of the Council of Ministers combined and made available to members of the public in has been arrived at, whether we are in session or not? September 1999. The conclusion of these reports was that the best available site for the new prison was at Mr Bell: Mr President, I have said in my reply that the Ballafletcher. final environmental assessment appertains to two sites and Braddan Commissioners requested time to consider the they have had equal treatment and that is reflected in the report and in December 1999 produced an independent report that comes back. report which they had commissioned which had come to It, at the moment, is my hope, if or when we identify the conclusion that the White Hoe was the best site. I the final site, if the Council of Ministers are content with requested that Her Majesty's Prison Service site selection that, at an early point to come back to Tynwald for team consider the comments in that report and the site ratification of that site and then the procedure will move suggested. They carried out this further work and in so on from there. doing took into consideration at every point the comments and observations of our own planning office. Mr North: Mr President, would the minister please The outcome of this additional work was a report which confirm just for clarity that the only assessments that have I received in February which concluded that they still been done up to now of all the sites he has mentioned have considered Ballafletcher to be the best site. Clearly there been on operational grounds and not on environmental was a divergence of opinion between the planning experts ones? commissioned by the Braddan Commissioners and our own advisers. I therefore requested that they meet in order to Mr Bell: No, I cannot confirm that, Mr President. That try and resolve any differences between the experts. This is completely contrary to the answer I have given in the meeting took place in London on 10th March. last few minutes. I have stated quite specifically that the Unfortunately agreement could not be reached as to which assessments of the final two sites are environmental site was the most suitable, although agreement was reached assessments and I did list the other areas which we have as to the principle of assessing the sites by way of consulted with government departments on and, I have to environmental assessments. Again, though, there was say, in some detail.

New Prison — Announcement of Site — Question by Mr Lowey T890 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

The President: I think a final supplementary, hon. was provided with powers to make fixed penalty member of the Council. regulations and to prescribe the form of the fixed penalty • notice. Mr Lowey: Could the minister just clarify for me? I The Department of Local Government and the did ask a question of the four remaining sites if they had Environment made such regulations which came into all been evaluated and he said the last two have all been operation on 1st April 1991. Fixed penalty notices for evaluated. What was the difference between the final four dropping litter can already, therefore, be issued by a and the final two? In other words, why weren't the four constable or an authorised officer of a local authority. I given the same evaluation? suspect, however, from the very fact this question has been asked, that these powers are not widely known. In this Mr Bell: Mr President, there were no final four, there regard, as the powers were introduced some nine years were a final three. The third one, though, by common ago, it is my department's intention, in conjunction with consent of both sets of consultants on their individual the Isle of Man Constabulary, to run a publicity campaign marking basis, was so far behind the other two that after to raise the profile of the offence and the penalty for discussion with the planning office it was felt that it would breaking the law. Having said that, I must point out that be a waste of resources to continue an environmental the police officer has to see an offender drop litter in order assessment of the third site because on all other criteria it to issue a notice and generally when this happens the person is so far behind the other two it really would be a relatively is asked to pick up the item and is cautioned and that is the pointless exercise. end of the offence. Thank you, Mr President. Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would like to thank the Minister for Home Affairs for his reply and also would Dropping Litter — Prosecutions like to ask him would he consider having it extended to • — Question by Mr Karran the likes of traffic wardens as far as this provision is concerned and to other bodies as far as being able to give The President: Item 12, the hon. member for Onchan, these fixed penalties is concerned? Mr Karran. Mr Bell: I think it is unlikely we would be considering Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Minister for giving these powers to traffic controllers, Mr President, as Home Affairs: these individuals have quite specific powers, but as I have said in the answer, the powers already devolve on local (1) In each of the last five years how many people have authorities and there is nothing at all to stop local authorities been prosecuted for dropping litter; and appointing one of their own officers as a local litter warden, for want of a better description, to counteract any particular (2) in view of the extent of the Island's litter problem problems in a localised area. will your department consider the extension of instant penalty provisions to cover this offence? Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, could I ask the Minister for Home Affairs if cigarette ends are deemed to be litter and The President: Again, it is the Minister for Home if they are, how many prosecutions have taken place with Affairs, the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Bell to reply. regard to the dropping of cigarette ends?

Mr Bell: Mr President, firstly in answer to the first part Mr Bell: I understand that cigarette ends are considered of the question, since 1994 there have been the following as litter and I am sure a great many people find them just prosecutions by the Isle of Man Constabulary under the as offensive as other forms of litter, particularly in the • Litter Act of 1972 as amended by the Public Health Act of vicinity of offices in the centre of Douglas. 1990. In 1994 there were four prosecutions, two cautions As regards the number of prosecutions under that term, and one reported offender not found. In 1995 there were I honestly do not know, I have not the breakdown, but I two prosecutions, five cautions and again, one reported would suspect very few, if any. offender not found. In 1996 there was one prosecution, three cautions and three reported offenders not found. In 1997 one prosecution, no cautions and one reported Sporting Facilities at Watterson Lane, offender not found. In 1998 one prosecution, one caution Douglas — Question by Mr Houghton and two reported offenders not found and in 1999 one prosecution, two cautions and three reported offenders not The President: Item 13, the hon. member for Douglas found. These figures do not include any prosecutions that North, Mr Houghton. may have been made by local authorities. Secondly, there is no need for my department to extend Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave the instant penalty provisions to cover the offence of litter to ask the Minister for Education: dropping. Under section 94(1) of the Public Health Act 1990 and section 5A(1) of the Litter Act 1972 the Has your department completed its evaluation of Department of Local Government and the Environment providing sporting facilities at Watterson Lane, Douglas?

Dropping Litter — Prosecutions — Question by Mr Karran Sporting Facilities at Watterson Lane, Douglas — Question by Mr Houghton • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T891

The President: I call upon the Minister for Education, (a) where does the department plan to landfill ID the hon. member for Garff, Mr Rodan. the toxic ash;

Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President. The appraisal of (b) how many tons of toxic ash will be produced the need for sporting facilities and the suitability of the each year from the incinerator; land at Johnny Watterson's Lane is still ongoing and will be for some period yet. (c) what will be the main constituents of the ash; I would refer the hon. member to my answer previously and given to a similar question in February in another place in which it was indicated that the department was indeed (d) what is the estimated cost of preparing and actively assessing these issues with a view to considering managing the toxic ash landfill site properly? a scheme for inclusion in the department's capital programme in due course. Since then consultations have The President: The Minister for Local Government and been taking place with officials from Douglas Corporation the Environment, Mr Gilbey, to reply. to establish potential areas of common use and further discussions with head teachers in the Douglas area will Mr Gilbey: Mr President, there would be no toxic ash take place to identify requirements. produced by the incinerator. Outputs would fall into two broad areas, one bottom ash. This is the burnt fraction of the domestic waste. Its main constituents are partly-melted In view of his department's justifiable Mr Houghton: glass, metals and ash. This constitutes some 10 per cent of plans to extend the playground and car park onto the sports the input and would amount to around 6,000 tonnes each field at St Ninian's school, would he be willing, though, to year. It is intended that most of this material, after suitable pursue this matter a bit more vigorously than is actually processing, will be reused as an aggregate substitute in being done and report back to this Court in October with a building blocks or road construction. statement on the issue? The second is flue gas treatment residues. This is a highly alkaline material arising from the cleaning of the Mr Rodan: Mr President, while the hon. member quite flue gas. This process uses lime as the binding material, correctly refers to improved facilities at St Ninian's, which hence the high alkalinity. This material, approximately is the subject of a further item on the agenda, he will also 2,000 tonnes each year, will be exported for landfilling in be aware, I am sure, that while the creation of playing- . The geology of the Island does not lend itself to fields at Johnny Watterson's Lane would be a welcome the provision of a site which could accept flue gas treatment addition to the availability of many venues which currently residues. The bottom ash could be treated as an inert comprise, for example, Tromode and the NSC and Noble's material, therefore the cost would be predominantly Park, there are already problems caused by the need for covered by the cost of land acquisition if it was used in classes of pupils to travel from school to these venues. landfilling, but as I have said, it is more likely that it will When one considers that out of a 50-minute lesson 20 be used in building blocks and road construction. minutes can be spent in travel, leaving only a very small Is the hon. minister aware that there is an amount of time actually available for sport, I think it is Mr Singer: EU proposal to ban the use of bottom ash for road building obvious that the problems caused by the need for pupils to and does this not indicate that unacceptable waste is present travel will need to be very carefully evaluated as a prime in bottom ash? consideration before actually proceeding with this option Can he tell me whether the British Government has and it is on that particular issue that we intend to focus in agreed to take all the fly ash or only a proportion of it, and our discussion with head teachers. So I would not like at therefore if that is so, where will he put the rest of the fly this stage just to give the member a precise date when it ash? would be possible to report on the outcome of such And finally, as he quoted to me that if the incinerator discussions. was built there would be no lorries travelling through Ramsey to Bride any more, can he therefore explain to me why a report to the Richmond Hill consultative committee Incinerator Policy — Disposal of Toxic Ash — said that the department would be unable to use Turkeylands, there was only limited space at Ballaharra Question by Mr Singer sandpit, and therefore can he explain to me where any bottom ash and other landfill will be taken in the future? The President: Item 14, the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. Mr Gilbey: Well, Mr President, regarding the bottom ash, I will not answer the first question because I am not Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to in a position to do so with complete accuracy. ask the Minister for Local Government and the Regarding the flue ash it is almost certain that we shall Environment: shortly enter into an agreement for not flue ash, flue gas treatment residues. It is almost certain that we shall enter If approval is given by Tynwald to pursue the into an agreement whereby these can be shipped to the department's present incinerator policy - adjacent isles to be dealt with.

Incinerator Policy — Disposal of Toxic Ash — Question by Mr Singer T892 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000

Regarding what he refers to from the Richmond Hill I heard somebody say, `Tut-tut.' Quite frankly, if you had liaison committee, I cannot comment without having seen all the details on these matters you could have a book an • the minutes, et cetera, but as I said before, we very much inch thick. (Mrs Cannell interjecting) hope that the bottom ash will be used in a constructive way for building blocks, et cetera and not just tipped Mr Braidwood: Mr President, could the minister anywhere, but if it is tipped, as I have said, it can be treated confirm that the flue gas treatment residue, all of the as an inert material. residue, will be exported to the UK under the bilateral agreement with the UK under a duly motivated request Mrs Cannell: Mr President, can the hon. minister and this will continue after the bilateral agreement has been provide any kind of substantiation in relation to the renewed? comment he made in his opening remarks that no toxic Also could he confirm that with the bottom ash, once it ash is produced by a mass burn incinerator and can we has been weathered, and this is the main criterion, there is have copies of that substantive material? no problem in using it in road construction? Further, if his department is advised via the EU that they are unable to regard the bottom ash as inert material Mr Gilbey: for the production of building blocks or anything else, I would like to thank the hon. member for where then does he propose to actually landfill this that most helpful question. He is absolutely correct. He particular bottom ash? Would he agree with me that his has studied these matters in great detail and has certain department has identified one landfill option and that is technical knowledge about them and what he says is Wright's Pit East, which would ensure vehicles carrying absolutely correct. such toxic bottom ash will be going through Kirk Michael Village and Ramsey for the foreseeable future if this project The President: A final supplementary, the hon. member were to go ahead? for Ramsey, Mr Singer. • Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I was totally correct in saying Mr Singer: Thank you. Could I therefore ask the hon. there will be no toxic ash because that is not the correct minister is he then confirming to us that he is absolutely definition and as I try and be accurate in what I say I like positive that the UK Government will take the ash that is to keep to correct definitions and the correct definitions to be exported, that they will take the full amount of this? are bottom ash and flue gas treatment residues. And whilst he promises me that nothing will go into Regarding the fear that anything might be put in Wrights Pit's East, and accepting that, can he also confirm Wright's Pit East, this is completely unfounded because to me that nothing will go into Wright's Pit North nor any there has just been a planning decision by an independent other sites where stone is being extracted on a continual inspector which makes it quite clear that that pit will have basis in Bride? to be closed down as soon as an incinerator is operational and be properly restored. So there can be absolutely no Mr Gilbey: Yes, I am not going to say I am absolutely question of anything of the nature referred to being taken certain about anything because you can never be absolutely there. certain about anything but I am as certain as I reasonably can be that we shall enter into an agreement and have it Mr Rimington: Would the minister tell this Court signed quite soon with the UK Government under which whether he is aware of the figures given in the they will take all the flue gas treatment residues, but I environmental impact assessment of his department by the should make it perfectly clear that the whole world is Fichtner consultant engineers which clearly show that there looking for a way of making these more acceptable and are elements within the bottom ash, heavy metals, furans, safer and when that is discovered if a way is found where • dioxins, PCBs, as published by his department? Also would the minister explain how he has just said small quantities could be treated we may then do that. that there are only going to be 6,000 tonnes of bottom ash Now, regarding Bride, as I have said, there is no when in the evidence to the inquiry that figure was given intention whatsoever regarding Wright's Pit East and as significantly higher, round about 15,000 tonnes dry certainly I think one of the last places we would want to weight and more as a wet weight? go to put anything is Wright's Pit North for the simple Would the minister also take on board that if he intends reason of proximity. As I am sure the hon. member knows, to use such ash for construction purposes there is a cost one of the key policies of waste disposal is proximity. You involved with the plant required to take that ash and then try to dispose of waste as near to the places where it is so use it? produced as you can and certainly Bride is one of the furthest places from where it is produced. If we had to tip Mr Gilbey: Dealing in reverse order, of course there this material into any kind of pit, although as I have said would be some cost in using it for construction purposes before I hope that will not be the case and the hon. member but there would be an economic benefit obviously because for East Douglas has made it quite clear why it should not the material could be used instead of other material. be the case, but if we had to we would obviously try and I am afraid I cannot comment accurately on the other find somewhere far closer to the incinerator rather than points because I have not got all the details here and I am carrying it all the way to Bride and over quite unsuitable not prepared to make statements that may not be accurate. roads for the last part of the journey. Incinerator Policy — Disposal of Toxic Ash — Question by Mr Singer • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T893

Waste Arisings Report — Publication — It should be noted that this matter is an item which the Question by Mr Rimington department hopes will be presented to this hon. Court for approval at a near future date. The financial motion which was withdrawn from the The President: Item 15, the hon. member for Rushen, agenda for the June sitting of Tynwald was for the sum of Mr Rimington. £42,690,000. At the presentation to Tynwald members a breakdown of such costs was provided by representatives Mr Rimington: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local Government and the of the project team. However, this detail was provided on the basis of the information being commercially sensitive Environment: until such time as Tynwald approval to the scheme had Will you make both volumes of the RPS Cairns Final been obtained. The hon. member should have received a copy of the Report on Waste Arisings (October 1999) publicly slides presented to members of Tynwald on 13th June and available? I would refer him to that document which details the The President: Again, I call on the Minister for Local information he is seeking. However, should the hon. member wish any further clarification, then the Government and the Environment, Mr Gilbey, to reply. department's officers would be more than pleased to supply Mr Gilbey: Mr President, there were two reports this to him. commissioned by RPS Cairns: Land Waste Database and There are of course further financial implications for Waste Arising Study. The former examined waste the proposed scheme which it is not possible to answer in management systems and recommended the installation response to a question related to capital cost alone. I would of a weighbridge at Wright's Pit East. The latter report, therefore request that hon. members accept the future when finally completed, was totally out of date. That report opportunity which the department will provide to give them was used and intended to give accurate figures for totals more information and clarification for the scheme, its of waste arisings in connection with the integrated technical, legal and financial implications. incinerator facility project. I must stress that the department wants to ensure that The information from this report, together with all hon. members have the maximum amount of calculations based on population numbers, produced information available to them, but as I have stressed, for figures which, when checked with information gained from very clear commercial reasons some of this has to be the weighbridge computer, proved to be highly inaccurate. confidential to hon. members at the present time. By the time the final report was produced the requirement Mr Duggan: Mr President, could I ask the minister, for it had indeed passed. It has never been published for sir, does the figure £42.69 million include the system for this reason and also because it contains several statements, the utilisation of the heat? which could be used to generate more work for the Also could I ask again - Mr Corkill has more or less consultant, which could easily be quoted out of context. replied before - could you assure the Court that there have been no contracts whatsoever signed?

Incineration — Breakdown of Costs — Mr Gilbey: I can absolutely assure this hon. Court that Question by Mr Duggan no contracts whatever have been signed and the whole of the Council of Ministers are well aware of that and I can The President: Item 16, the hon. member for Douglas see the Treasury minister nodding his head in concurrence ID South, Mr Duggan. because that is the case. Regarding the use of electricity, the total cost includes Mr Duggan: Mr President, I beg leave, sir, to ask the the production of electricity at the plant. Minister for Local Government and the Environment: Mr Lowey: Would the minister confirm that the costs What is the breakdown of costs included in the sum are the actual cost of the incinerator and nothing to do with the ancillary cost of exporting waste off-Island? And, of £42.69 million for the proposed incinerator? Mr President, could I have your ruling that seminars and briefings held by departments are no substitute for The President: Again the hon. member Mr Gilbey to accountability to this Court? reply. Mr Duggan and Mrs Connell: Hear, hear. Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I am very sorry that the hon. member was not able to take the opportunity of attending The President: I would agree to the final point. The the briefing session provided for members of Tynwald on hon. minister to reply to the first point. 13th June this year at which members of the project team and the department's technical and legal advisers were able Mr Gilbey: I rather missed the first point. to brief Tynwald members in some detail on the proposed scheme and answer questions from those who attended. Mr Duggan: You missed the whole lot, I think.

Waste Arisings Report — Publication — Question by Mr Rimington Incineration — Breakdown of Costs — Question by Mr Duggan T894 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000

Mr Lowey: Could I then ask whether the cost as on the impact separate from that which might ensue from the question paper, £42.69 million, does not include any extra electromagnetic radiation from the antenna. • costs incurred by the department in exporting residual As far as the final part of the question is concerned, it is waste off-Island? not normal practice for the Department of Health and Social Security to be directly represented at planning inquiries. Mr Gilbey: The residual waste will be exported by the However, the Planning Committee is free to seek advice operators. It is not a capital cost in any case. from the Department of Health and Social Security on any Regarding the point, Mr President, of your ruling, the health aspect relevant to any application when this is seen reason is that there are always some confidential matters as appropriate. and until a contract is signed with one party or another or until it is not signed quite definitely it is quite wrong that Mr Quine: Mr President, would the minister agree that their price should be available to other tenderers. unless and until it is established that transmissions from the proposed broadcasting facility using the cross field antenna, until it is established that such radiation emissions Radio Transmission Facility at Cranstal, from that are harmful to the biological systems of human beings and animals, then there must remain serious Bride — Health Implications of Cross Field reservations on health grounds to the progressing of this Antenna — Question by Mr Quine project?

The President: We turn then to item 17, hon. members. Mrs Christian: Mr President, it is, I would suggest, I call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. for the Planning Committee to consider when the application comes before them and for the licensing Mr Quine: I beg leave to ask the Minister for Health authority to consider the conditions which should apply to • and Social Security: any such antenna, to bear in mind whether or not there are any health risks associated with it. The indications that I (1) Has the director of public health formed an opinion have been given from the director of public health at this on the health implications, if any, of the proposed time, and I did indicate that he has not had the detailed radio transmission facility at Cranstal, Bride, which specifications in relation to this antenna, are that would be required to use a cross field antenna; electromagnetic radiation is not in the normal way responsible for any significant health risk to the local (2) what, if any, published reports on the use of cross population. I feel quite sure that any planning consideration field antenna, as opposed to a conventional antenna, and any persons in the locality who may have evidence to has the director of public health studied in the contrary would certainly have that evidence considered considering the matter; and when the planning application is brought forward.

(3) has your department made, or does it intend to Mrs Hannan: Could I ask the minister, Eaghtyrane, as make, a submission to the planning inquiry there are so few of these antennae worldwide, is there established to consider the proposed development? information there to either support or reject any sort of comment that you have made this morning? The President: On this occasion we call for the Minister for Health and Social Security, Mrs Christian. Mrs Christian: Mr President, I believe that this nature of antenna is very restricted. However, I think what the Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. The director director of public health has been looking.at is essentially of public health has not been provided with a detailed the effect of such an antenna which is the effect of • specification of the proposed cross field radio antenna to electromagnetic radiation. Now, whether or not there is be situated at Bride. Nonetheless he has responded to something different about this antenna in relation to that inquiries from the Bride Parish Commissioners regarding radiation I have no idea but he has commented that he concerns over the potential health risks associated with believes it is unlikely to have any specific health impact electromagnetic radiation. separate from that which might ensue from electromagnetic Turning to part (2) of the question, the director of public radiation and there is much research on electromagnetic health has undertaken some research of the literature into radiation. There are no indications of any significant health the potential risks of cellular telephone based transmitters. risk from electromagnetic radiation. A recent uncorroborated report suggests that, while digital signals may have some subtle effect on cerebral function, Mr Quine: I thank the minister for those meaningful there appeared to be no evidence of conventional analogue responses but could I ask her does the director of public electromagnetic radiation being responsible for any health understand and accept that the generation of significant health risk to a local population. electromagnetic radiation from the cross field antenna will The DPH has not specifically researched cross field be substantially greater than that emanating from a antennae. I am advised that all antennae are designed to conventional antenna? radiate an electromagnetic field. The precise type of Secondly, is your director of public health aware of the antenna is, in his opinion, unlikely to have a specific health view expressed by the Institute of Electrical Engineers,

Radio Transmission Facility at Cranstal, Bride — Health Implications of Cross Field Antenna — Question by Mr Quine • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T895

their recent working group on this matter, which states Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to • that there is no robust scientific evidence showing health ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: effects on low-level electromagnetic fields on man? (1) Are you aware of the household benefits scheme Mrs Christian: Mr President, could I ask the hon. shortly to be introduced in the Republic of Ireland, member to repeat his final sentence in order that I can which will provide free transport for the elderly, answer the question? carers and those with disabilities together with allowances for telephone rental, electricity and Mr Quine: Yes. Is your director of public health aware of the product of a working group of the Institute of television licences; and Electrical Engineers which states that there is no robust scientific evidence showing health effects on low-level (2) will you consider introducing a similar scheme? electromagnetic fields on the human body, on man. The President: Again it is for the Minister for Health Mrs Christian: Mr President, I find that statement and Social Security, Mrs Christian, to reply. somewhat ambiguous in the sense that it shows that there are no health effects. Does that mean that there is no Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, we do evidence that there are health effects or that there is have some information about the extra benefits in the evidence that there are no health effects? It is a very Republic of Ireland over and above the basic Irish rates of confusing statement, if I may say. Mr President, this is a pension. The department has no proposals to adopt the Irish planning matter. It is for the Planning Committee to consider all relevant matters in relation to it. The director system of social welfare in the Island. of public health has indicated that if they wish to seek his As the hon. member is aware, our system is modelled advice he will endeavour to obtain such expert opinion on the United Kingdom social security system with and research as he can in relation to this matter. At this enhancements which our government has made over and stage he has not had a detailed specification of it. above the United Kingdom rates, and she is obviously The indication that the hon. member has given is that aware that there are significant variations in the pension the electromagnetic fields in relation to this type of antenna supplement of £18.70 a week, the Christmas bonus of £75 are very much stronger than normal. I imagine he would a year, which covers carers and people on disability benefits want to seek information and any papers which are as well as pensioners, and our rates of child benefit at £17 available on such a field. Now, the hon. member for Peel for a child under 16 and £25 for a child at school over that indicates that maybe there is not much research in that age which are more generous than both the United regard. I feel quite sure that he and any Planning Committee Kingdom and Ireland. will bear those matters in mind when coming to their conclusions. I would add it is difficult to compare welfare state provision from one country with another and you have to The President: The hon. member for Ayre, a final be wary of cherry-picking individual items of welfare supplementary on this question. provision. One has to look at the broad picture and I believe if we do that in the Isle of Man our welfare structure is as Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. Would the comparable with any. minister confirm that her director of public health would be willing to produce evidence if required to this planning Mr Cannell: Hear, hear. inquiry because where else would this evidence come from? Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I am inclined to agree with the comments made by the hon. health minister but in The President: I think she has already given that confirming that our basic pension and all the rights indication but the minister to reply. attributed to pensioners are taken from the United Kingdom Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I imagine under the reciprocal agreement, bearing in mind that the that the environmental health department of the department United Kingdom is about to make massive changes in of which the hon. member is a member may have a view relation to pensions, pension payments and future pension on this issue, but indeed he has indicated that in so far as requirements, what intention does the department have to he is able to, if the Planning Committee seek information maintain the good standard that we presently enjoy and from him he will be pleased to give them what information provide for our pensioners here in the shadow of these he is able to obtain. massive changes brought in by the UK Labour Government?

Household Benefits Scheme — Mrs Christian: Mr President, our policy will be to Question by Mrs Cannell continue the policy which we have hitherto been pursuing in that where this government sees it appropriate we make The President: Item 18, I call upon the hon. member improvements over the United Kingdom structure and will for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell. continue to do so, I would suggest.

Household Benefits Scheme — Question by Mrs Cannell T896 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000

Residents with Learning Disabilities — (1) Would the proposed radio transmitting facility at Disability Working Allowance — Cranstal, Bride, which would be required to use a cross field antenna, have any adverse implications Question by Mr Henderson for your department's statutory duties and responsibilities in this area; The President: Item 19, the hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. (2) what, if any, studies have been carried out by your department in this regard, and by whom were they Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave conducted; and to ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: (3) has your department made, or does it intend to When do you propose to honour the undertaking make, a submission to the planning inquiry with respect to those with learning disabilities resident in established to consider this proposed development? community homes who are presently entitled to claim disability working allowance which you gave to this hon. The President: I call on the Minister for Agriculture, Court at its June sitting that: 'I will undertake and seek Fisheries and Forestry, Mr Downie, to reply. the Court's support for us to support this today, to clarify the social security issues and ask the social services Mr Downie: Thank you, Mr President, hon. members. division to examine ways of phasing it out over a period As regards part (1) of the hon. member's question, I can by replacing the social security payments with something confirm that my department is concerned that the proposed from social service division'? development may have adverse implications for its statutory duties and responsibilities. I say 'may have' The President: The Minister for Health and Social advisedly, as there seems to be a dearth of research data Security, Mrs Christian. on the impact of such a major installation on life in the surrounding area, wild or otherwise. Although my Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I took steps department cannot argue that it has a direct impact on to honour the undertaking the day after the last sitting specific areas of wildlife interest, too little is know about concluded. the wider effects of this type of radio wave to be complacent I have been asked by the Council of Ministers to about its implications. There are concerns as to the effect circulate to hon. members a memorandum setting out the on migratory birds, which are known to use magnetic department's actions in the matter. I hope to do this in the mechanisms in their brains for navigation and migration near future. However, until such time as the officers in the and this is believed to be grounds for urging that the department have had an opportunity to make precautionary principle is applied in the absence of any recommendations regarding transitional protection for each evidence to the contrary. resident and for those recommendations to be approved The answer to part (2) of the question is no, no studies the payments to those residents continue. have been carried out by my department in this regard but I am aware that other environmental groups and Mr Henderson: Mr President, I thank the minister for organisations have carried out studies, particularly in the her absolutely positive response there. Could she indicate area of birds. in the memorandum that will be circulated, in as far as she As regards part (3), my department has made a may be able to, that the DWA allowance and the phasing- submission to the planning inquiry established to consider out may be replaced with something from social services? this proposed development. This submission is to the effect Is that still the intention? given in the answer to part (1) but my department has also expressed concern that the proposal is an inappropriate Mrs Christian: Mr President, I think we made it clear scale of development in the context of the Ayres and in the at the debate last time that the payment cannot continue northern landscape. It also questions whether, when under the DWA structure, it will have to be sourced from government policies are extended to discourage this type the social services budget. I will confirm that. The nature of development within rural areas, there is a valid reason of the payments will be phased out, as the hon. member is for approving this type of intrusive, man-made structure aware, and at the same time the social services division in the location proposed. Thank you, Mr President. are looking at the therapeutic earnings structure which is available for people who carry out work within the division. Mr Quine: I thank the hon. minister for his reply, sir.

Radio Transmitting Facility at Cranstal, Motorcycle Events — DAFF Directive — Bride — DAFF — Question by Mr Quine Question by Mr Cannel

The President: Item 20, the hon. member for Ayre, Mr The President: Item 21, I call on the hon. member for Quine. Onchan, Mr Cannell.

Mr Quine: Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister Mr Cannell: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry: ask the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry:

Residents with Learning Disabilities — Disability Working Allowance — Question by Mr Henderson Radio Transmitting Facility at Cranstal, Bride — DAFF — Question by Mr Quine Motorcycle Events — DAFF Directive — Question by Mr Cannell TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T897

Are you aware that your department's recent Mr Cannell: Mr President, a supplementary if I may. directive to the Isle of Man Centre of the Auto-Cycle Union The hon. minister speaks of constructive dialogue and he seriously jeopardises the future of economically beneficial says that a request for a meeting has indeed been made tourism events, as well as threatening the entire structure and the Isle of Man centre does have that, but may I ask of local motorcycle trials as they have been known for 80 him, please, would he not agree with me that a more proper years? way to conduct business would have been to do just that, to ask the centre to discuss this difficulty rather than heavy- The President: Again I call on the Minister for handedly threating prosecution by citing legislation being Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to reply. proscriptive, not permissive and that no waiver can be applied? How then are current tourism-based events to Mr Downie: Mr President, the hon. member is, I believe avoid being completely halted? referring to a letter dated 28th June 2000 sent to him in his role as secretary of the Isle of Man Centre of the Auto- Mr Downie: Mr President, I would have thought that Cycle Union Limited by an officer in my department. This the secretary of the local branch of the Auto-Cycle Union letter referred to my department's concern that a number would have referred this letter to his committee. I did speak of motorcycle events were using river-beds as part of their to the secretary, the hon. member Mr Cannell, about this course. In particular two motorcycle events were referred issue and I said that I was fully prepared to come along to to. the ACU centre board with officers of my department to In one case complaints had been received following discuss the future of motorcycle events on the Isle of Man. motorcycles being ridden through a ford in the Crogga I have since contacted the Auto-Cycle Union parent River. This event caused a heavy loading of sediment which body and have been given copies of the ACU would be likely to have an effect on aquatic life and also environmental code and I am sad to say that a lot of the on agricultural stock which had access to the river for conditions which appear in the code do not appear to have drinking. applied in the Isle of Man, and this is another issue that I The second case involved another motorcycle club using want to get to grips with because we have a very precious a tributary of the River Glass near Abbeylands as part of environment in the Island. I am not opposed to motor sport the motorcycle course so that motorcycles travelled for and neither is my department but we want to come up with some way along the river bed. Although this is a small a policy where motor sport and the other people who want tributary stream, it does nevertheless contain juvenile fish. to enjoy the countryside and the fishermen can live together The river-bed was disturbed at the points of impact but in harmony for the good of this Island. Thank you, Mr sediment was also carried downstream into the main river. President. The effect was observed and commented upon all the way down to Tromode and indeed to the Quarter Bridge itself. Mr Henderson: Mr President, would the hon. minister Sediment deposition can cause the death of aquatic life by not agree with me that much of the Island's natural heritage smothering. It also clogs up gravel areas which would is of European and global significance and one of the main otherwise be used by aquatic life such as trout and reasons people visit this Island in the first place, which migratory salmon for spawning. requires a careful balance including joint working The directive referred to by the hon. member, therefore, initiatives, and could he also confirm that motorcycle clubs was a letter drawing his attention to these incidents and have in fact been noticed and written to with regard to asking that he in turn drew the matter to the attention of forthcoming legislation and they have been actively trying the motorcycle clubs in the hope that such practices could to help us in the progression of that? be curtailed. The letter also outlined the department's responsibility for the administration of the Inland Fisheries Mr Downie: Mr President, I can confirm that we have Act 1976. Section 28C and D of that Act make it an offence received correspondence from a number of motorcyle clubs to injure or disturb the spawn or fry of salmon or trout or in the Isle of Man and could I put on record that the any spawning bed, bank or shallow where the spawn or depatment actually allows somewhere around 30 major fry of salmon or trout may be. motorcycle events, off-road, to take place on government- The Court will be aware that both motor sports and the owned land. Under the UK environmental code there maintenance of the Island's rural environment are very should have been in the Isle of Man a proper environmental important to the people of the Island. Both play a significant part in encouraging visitors to come to the Island and I official, somebody appointed by the local organisation to would hope that by constructive dialogue the requirements oversee all these off-road events and all of these events of the Auto-Cycle Union and those placed on my should have been run in accordance with their code in the department by virtue of the Inland Fisheries Act can be past. fully accommodated. It is for this reason that I have both Now, I am not trying to be heavy-handed, I am trying verbally and in writing offered to meet with the hon. to take a common-sense approach here and I think that member and the members of the local Auto-Cycle Union following discussions with the centre board we will find a centre committee to discuss the situation with a view to way forward and we will find a code of conduct and finding an environmentally acceptable way forward, but I practice which can apply in the Isle of Man that we can regret to say that as yet this invitation does not appear to get those who are using the countryside and in particular have been accepted. Thank you. land owned by the department to adhere to.

Motorcycle Events — DAFF Directive — Question by Mr Cannell T898 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

Mr Connell: A further supplementary if I may, Mr A provisional enquiry was received about 18 months President. Would not the hon. member agree with me that ago indicating a possible location for the facility and • on receipt of the heavy-handed letter which his department possible supply requirements. The authority responded sent to the Isle of Man Centre of the Auto-Cycle Union, of with indicative costs but there has been no further contact which I am the honorary secretary, in fact I did telephone on the matter. the hon. minister and say there looked like difficulty in this and offered to withdraw it until further consideration Mr Quine: Mr President, can the minister confirm that could be made, and would he not further agree that these from the MEA's point of view there are no insurmountable types of events of which we are talking about attract technical problems in them providing this power, and considerably more tourists to the Isle of Man than any other secondly, were they asked to quote for this work, and if environmental type of product and also that motorcycle so, what was the order of costs? events of this nature are in fact commonplace throughout the entire world? Mr North: Mr President, as I have indicated, the only contact that the MEA has had has been to give an indication Mr Downie: Mr President, yes, I would agree that these of a possible cost, I think it was in the region of £1 million, motorcycle events are commonplace throughout the world, and this was based on incomplete information relating to but the hon. member must also agree that there is an load levels and even to the location. If a firm enquiry were environmental code and as far as I am concerned if he will to be submitted, then definitive costs could be quoted. give an undertaking on behalf of the ACU that this environmental code of theirs will be fully adhered to I will Mr Quine: Mr President, can the minister confirm that be perfectly happy, but I can tell hon. members now if we the amount of electricity required to power this radio stuck to the ACU environmental code we probably could transmitting station would equate to something in the order not run another off-road event in the Isle of Man again: of that used for the city of Peel, and secondly, can you • the conditions laid down in that code are much too onerous. identify any other non-MEA oil-fired electricity generating Now, I am not wanting to bring to a close off-road plant inside or outside an environmentally sensitive area motorcycle events, far from it. I want to come up with a of this size? code of practice for the Isle of Man, apply some common sense and when fish are spawning in certain rivers and Mr North: I am doing a quick mental whizz around streams in the Isle of Man we need to identify those to the the Island, Mr President. I think the answer to that is no ACU and where possible provide alternative venues for and whether it is the same size as Peel or that area I would motorcycle events to take place rather than injure our not know. precious environment.

Bus Timetable — Consultation Procedure — Radio Transmitting Facility at Cranstal, Question by Mr Singer Bride — Power Supply — Question by Mr Quine The President: Item 23, hon. member for Ramsey, Mr Singer. The President: Item 22, I call on the hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine. Mr Singer: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave to ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: Mr Quine: Mr President, I beg to ask the Minister for Trade and Industry: Are you satisfied with the consultation procedure • adopted prior to introduction of the new bus timetable? (1) Can you confirm that the Manx Electricity Authority does not intend to provide the requisite power supply The President: I call on the Minister for Tourism and to the proposed radio transmitting facility at Leisure, the hon. member for Douglas South. Cranstal, Bride; and Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. I was not (2) if so, why is this? satisfied with the consultation procedure adopted prior to the introduction of the new bus timetable. On any future The President: I call on the Minister for Trade and occasion when there is a revision of service or where new Industry, the hon. member for Middle. services are introduced the consultation procedure will be improved. Mr North: Mr President, I am advised by the Manx Electricity Authority that they have not so far received an Mr Singer: Mr President, can I thank the minister for application for a supply in respect of the radio transmitting his, whilst short, extremely frank and honest reply and I facility at Bride, so I would have to say that an assertion thank him for that. In doing so can I thank him for his that they do not intend to provide a power supply would intervention in restoring the Ramsey express bus service be completely incorrect and misleading. immediately that he knew about it. Can I ask the minister

Radio Transmitting Facility at Cranstal, Bride — Power Supply — Question by Mr Quine Bus Timetable — Consultation Procedure — Question by Mr Singer • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T899 is he now personally taking responsibility for the bus, tram Does Isle of Man National Transport presently run and rail service following his publicly stated dissatisfaction, at a net profit? particularly with those services in his own area? The President: Again I call on the Minister for Tourism Mr Cretney: Mr President, I can confirm that I will be and Leisure to reply. from now on until the general election, if I am still in position, overseeing the bus and train operation. Mr Cretney: Thank you, Mr President. Isle of Man Transport does not run at a net profit, as will be seen from Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, with regard to the new bus the annual budget documentation. timetable could I ask why it was printed off-Island? Mr Henderson: Mr President, a supplementary. Would Mr Cretney: The decision that was taken, not by me the minister not agree then that if his bus company is not but by others, was because it was half the price of on- running at a net profit, any scheme which provides revenue Island. such as bus advertising must be critical in balancing the books or is he happy that the customer is ultimately going Mr Cannell: Mr President, would the hon. minister not to suffer yet again? agree with me that a difficulty was posed for the institution of a new timetable by the requirement to obtain trade union Mr Cretney: Mr President, I think we should be aware backing for the operation of those services? of all opportunities for income in the running of the operation and clearly the advertising income which the Mr Cretney: My understanding, Mr President, is there department obtained constituted one third of one per cent were a number of complicated areas including negotiation of the revenue stream, so I would not say it was critical. with trade union representatives, so the hon. member is What I would say, however, is that the buses operation is correct in that. My concern, though, was that the timetables run at a deficiency of £4 million, of which £1 million is arrived on the Island on the Saturday and the new service taken up in terms of the free buses which I think are so was to be introduced on the Monday and I did not believe much appreciated by elderly folk in particular and by the that that for me provided sufficient opportunity for the users schoolchildren which has recently been extended other than of the service to be aware of it. the public schools, and the second element is the cost of wages and salaries which is £31/4 million, so those are Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the minister inform significant amounts. However, I am aware of the hon. member's concern about us maximising opportunities for this hon. Court if there is slight tinkering needing to be revenue and obviously that is something I would want to done as far as in my own constituency? I believe that certain do. bus routes have been to the detriment of my constituents. Is there any way of it being changed or is this in stone for how long? European Union Football Association — Mr Cretney: Mr President, as with anything, nothing Membership — Question by Mrs Hannan is set in stone. However, I think we should not underestimate that there The President: Item 25, hon. member for Peel. were a number of improvements which were carried out as part of this. Those include services to Old which Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg leave to ask the we have been asked for for a long time. They also include Minister for Tourism and Leisure: a service to King Edward Road in Onchan. They include a service which connects the Manx Electric Railway and Will you make representations to the European the Steam Railway, so it is not all negative. Union Football Association to admit the Isle of Man to But, yes, if there are any areas of concern which any membership? hon. member has in relation to the service which my department provides on behalf of the people we are happy The President: Again it is the Minister for Tourism to listen any time. and Leisure to reply. Mr Cretney: I think, Mr President, I made a mistake in the House of Keys or Tynwald recently saying I was Isle of Man National Transport — Profit — happy to answer any questions, the more questions the Question by Mr Henderson merrier, and here I am, I have three in a row. The Isle of Man Football Association is currently affiliated with the The President: Item 24, I call on the hon. member for English Football Association which is itself affiliated to Douglas North, Mr Henderson. the Union of European Football Associations, UEFA. Any decision whether to apply to UEFA for direct affiliation is Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave entirely a matter for consideration by the Isle of Man to ask the Minister for Tourism and Leisure: Football Association.

Isle of Man National Transport — Profit — Question by Mr Henderson European Union Football Association — Membership — Question by Mrs Hannan T900 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

Mrs Hannan: Mr President, could I ask the minister as Mr Duggan: Mr President, could I ask the chairman Minister, for Tourism and Leisure, would he make would it not have been better, instead of causing chaos for representation to the Isle of Man Football Association weeks on end with a small hole opposite the power station, suggesting that they carry this request out? to crack on with the job and get some overtime and get the job completed? Mr Cretney: I am informed, Mr President, that as part of its recent development review the Isle of Man Football Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, as I have been hit several Association has taken a conscious decision not to change times over the head for my overtime rates - the current arrangements. I am not convinced, therefore, that it is my duty to get them to change something when Mr Delaney: Ah, your memory's improving, though! they are content with the present arrangements. Mr Karran: - over the workmen within the Water Authority it is very difficult. The issue that has to be addressed is the fact of co-ordination of road closures. (Mr Water Authority — Temporary Traffic-Lights Duggan: Hear, hear.) The fact is that in recent years the — Question by Mr Houghton figures have increased as far as that is concerned. We have a massive amount of infrastructure renewal, not just The President: Item 26, hon. member for Douglas ourselves but also other utilities, which has to be done, North, Mr Houghton. and whilst I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. member on this issue, we do come under some pressure from the Mr Houghton: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave Treasury for the amount of overtime that my staff get. to ask the Chairman of the Water Authority:

Why did your authority operate temporary traffic- Price of Crude Oil — lights on Pulrose Road during the road closure on the T7' course for the recent cycle races? Question by Mr Henderson

The President: On this occasion I call on the Chairman The President: Item 27, hon. member for Douglas of the Water Authority, the hon. member for Onchan, to North. reply. Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg leave Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, may I begin by apologising to ask the Chief Minister: for the delays that were suffered by the people travelling through Pulrose during the recent cycle races and in How does your government propose to address the particular on the afternoon of 23rd June. The Water increased price of crude oil? Authority had been carrying out work to provide a mains water supply to Middle River industrial estate in the period The President: We turn to the Chief Minister to reply. around Ti' Week, the final stage of the work being the road crossing and connection to our existing mains. Mr Gelling: The price of crude oil is determined by Because the trench was already congested with many world markets, Mr President, and it is not an issue over which the Isle of Man Government has any control or electricity cables between Douglas and the power station influence. the whole of the road crossing had to be hand dug and took considerably longer than would otherwise be the case. Mr Henderson: Mr President, of that I am well aware, The authority staff were aware of the road closures but is the Chief Minister aware that the rising energy costs associated with the international bicycle races but on this are biting hard on the consumer and feed through to winter occasion were not appreciative of the duration of the heating and petrol at the pumps and even the price of coal? closure and the impact that the traffic-lights would have with operating next to the lights at Peel Road. Mr Gelling: Yes, indeed I am very aware of that, Mr The hon. member will be aware of my desire that all President, and I can assure the hon. member that actually works in the highways are properly co-ordinated. I have the price of crude oil is dropping now virtually by the day recently written to the Chief Minister on this very subject and basically the price of the oil is concerning those and this incident only serves to illustrate the need for better producers of the oil because they know full well that if it co-ordination to be carried out. stays there very long, in fact people will change from that May I thank the hon. member for his question and once type of energy, so it is now in lots of the editorials from again apologise to those who were delayed by our works the end of last week that the crude oil price will be going and assure them that the Water Authority will closely work down because more oil is going to be put into the pool. with the Department of Transport and other utilities in the But, however the situation with regard to the effect it has future to try and make sure that this does not occur, but at of course is that this is something that fluctuates and it is the end of the day the issue has to be that we must try and part of the basket of items which is considered when the get it co-ordinated far better and I have letters to that effect annual review of this has taken place, so that will again be to the Council of Ministers in recent times. taken into consideration when these items are discussed.

Water Authority — Temporary Traffic-Lights — Question by Mr Houghton Price of Crude Oil — Question by Mr Henderson TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T901

Mr Delaney: Mr President, bearing in mind from the The President: Again the Chief Minister to reply. • Chief Minister's answer he recognises the price of crude oil is dropping and the reason given by gas authorities and Mr Gelling: Mr President, I assume the question relates others for the price hikes in recent times has been the price to the decision taken at OSPAR in relation to the discharge of crude oil increasing, now will he direct from the Council or releases of radioactive substances from nuclear of Ministers the consumer affairs department to ensure that reprocessing facilities. Now, as we have already said this these price decreases are reflected back to the consumers morning, the UK Government and the French Government of this Island? abstained from the decision and are accordingly not bound by it. Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear. What we have done following reports of that decision and the stance adopted by the UK is to make further Mr Gelling: Mr President, yes, I am quite sure that in representations to the UK Government welcoming and fact if there were any concerns about profiteering by these supporting the decision taken by the other 12, noting with companies the Office of Fair Trading would indeed step regret the UK Government abstention and expressing the in and do just as the questioner has asked. hope that, notwithstanding their abstention, the UK Government will adopt the principles set out in the decision Mr Delaney: Thank you, Chief Minister, thank you. and work towards fulfilling its terms. Now, we have also, as I said in answer to the earlier The President: A final supplementary, Mr Henderson. question, written to the governments of Denmark and Ireland congratulating them on their efforts, welcoming Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Would the the decision taken and in fact sending to them the Tynwald Chief Minister not agree that in fact the oil production is resolution of 1986 which committed the Island to the not being increased, in fact there are further delays and closure of Sellafield. dithering, and given the Isle of Man has some of the highest fuel prices in Western Europe would the Chief Minister Mrs Cannell: Mr President, bearing in mind the not further agree that he and his government should be comments made by the Chief Minister in a previous answer examining ways of softening the impact of crude oil when he said the Isle of Man does not have any control or increases locally by working up legislation so companies influence, would he agree with me that in relation to this have to apply to government when an increase is being particular issue it does not have any control or influence considered and at the very least establish a working party or does not appear to have with the United Kingdom? Further to that would he agree with me that, looking at to investigate the appropriateness of the levels of taxation the decision which was taken by the majority of those on fuel and ways in which this may be reduced? nations voting at OSPAR, yes indeed no country is bound by the law to cease the cessation of nuclear processing but Mr Gelling: Mr President, of course this has already it will apply pressure to those countries who abstained such been done. I think it is about three years ago there was a as the United Kingdom and France? very extensive review, inquiry and report produced that Further to that can the Chief Minister assure hon. actually showed that the Isle of Man was no different to members in this Court this morning that he will do his any rural area in fact of the United Kingdom, so therefore utmost to apply for a representative from the Isle of Man the Isle of Man has not been dithering and the Isle of Man to go to the next OSPAR convention when it is held, as has not not considered this, in fact it has been something observer status at the very least? Will he give us that that has been considered on more than one occasion, and assurance of taking that kind of action to put us in a stronger as I have already said, I am quite sure that the Office of position for the future? Fair Trading, if they feel there is profiteering by the companies involved, will step in. Mr Gelling: Mr President, now first of all as only France and the United Kingdom of the members of OSPAR have nuclear reprocessing facilities it is obvious the OSPAR Convention — decision will have a limited effect unless France and the UK act upon it regardless of their abstention. Question by Mr Henderson Now, if I could, only last evening I received a letter from the Home Office which basically is in answer to a The President: Item 28, hon. member for Douglas very long letter we sent to the minister, Lord Steve Bassam, North. on 28th March with regard to Sellafield and I think if I may just read two comments out of that letter which I think Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave basically put it into context. The paragraph reads, 'We fully to ask the Chief Minister. appreciate that the issue of radioactive discharges from the Sellafield site is also important to the Isle of Man What action does your government intend to take Government. We are committed to meeting our obligations following the position adopted by the United Kingdom under the OSPAR radioactive substances strategy to Government at the recent annual meeting of the OSPAR achieve progress towards substantial reductions in convention? radioactive discharges to the sea by the end of this year

OSPAR Convention — Question by Mr Henderson T902 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000

and to achieve by 2020 close to zero additional ensuring the soonest closure of this time bomb ticking away concentrations in the marine environment above historic just off the Island's shores? levels resulting from these discharges.' But then, Mr President, if I can just quote his last paragraph, 'The UK Mr Gelling: Mr President, we will obviously continue Government has no intention of shutting down Sellafield to press for at least adherence to the OSPAR agreement, or any other nuclear installation as long as the high safety but as I say, from the letter I have just received I would and environmental standards set by the independent say that for the closure it would appear that that is not an regulators continue to be met and I perhaps ought to point option to us, sir. out that even if the government had cause to consider closing down Sellafield, which it does not, it would not be possible simply to close the site on account of the extensive Minimum Wage Legislation — decommissioning and clean-up work that would be necessary. This would take scores of years to complete.' Question by Mr Lowey So from that I would take that, yes, they do intend adhering to the OSPAR resolution but as for the closure of The President: Item 29, I call on the hon. member of Sellafield is concerned they are quite adamant that that is the Council, Mr Lowey. not part or an option. Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to ask the Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister not Chief Minister: agree as far as the OSPAR convention that there are many in this hon. Court doing double-talk? When members of Why has your administration failed to honour Tynwald voted for a cable to get electricity, some of which promises made to this hon. Court and to the Legislative is generated from nuclear power, from the adjacent island, Council to introduce legislation on a minimum wage before does that not cast a bit of hypocrisy on this hon. Court 23rd May 2000? when we talk as far as the nuclear industry is concerned when tens of millions of pounds was supported to link us The President: The Chief Minister. up to that very industry that we are against? Mr Gelling: Yes, Mr President, we were asked by Mr Gelling: I am informed, Mr President, and it is Tynwald to introduce the Statutory Minimum Wages Bill advice I am giving that I have been given and that is that by 23rd May 2000. Now, notwithstanding the considerable with modern technology it is possible to determine from efforts made, we were not able to achieve that goal. Now, whence you get your power and therefore it would be not primarily this is because when the Bill came forward to necessary that the Island should in fact receive any of its the Council of Ministers on 27th April questions were asked power from nuclear generation. Could I also say - it was which required some additional research and a proposal remiss of me - I forgot the last part of the hon. member was made which required an amendment to the Bill to be Mrs Cannell's question about observer status. I have no drafted. Now, this situation was explained in parallel difficulty with that. I would hope that the Department of statements made in the House of Keys and in the Local Government and the Environment, which is the Legislative Council some six weeks ago on 23rd May. vehicle of the government which keeps this in check, will Now, whilst the proposed legislation is important and in fact keep us informed and we will indeed continue to we are anxious to bring it forward as soon as possible, it is ask for observer status at this conference, sir. more important, I would suggest, that we do get it right. Now, we expect to be in a position to bring the Bill forward Mr Braidwood: Mr President, would the Chief Minister at the start of the next session. give an undertaking that if our submission for observer status to the UK Government is not progressed, then we Mr Lowey: Would the Chief Minister not agree that should, because of our close relationship with the Irish the statement made to the Legislative Council anyway on Government, apply through the Irish Government for at 6th May said that the hope was given that it would be least observer status? possible to get the first reading before the parliamentary session took part? Mr Gelling: That is certainly a way forward, I accept. Would the Chief Minister also not agree that no consultation has taken place with any individual or groups The President: Hon. member Mr Henderson, for a final of people since February of this year and any amendments supplementary. that were made were as a result of a query raised by a member of the Council of Ministers, and is that any excuse Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. Would the for not honouring pledges made in this Court to introduce Chief Minister agree that some of the high safety standards the legislation before the branches on 23rd May? are not being met in Sellafield and that trying to meet an OSPAR agreement 20 years down the road is 20 years too Mr Gelling: Mr President, again, as I say, the statement much of pollution, and that in fact a further commitment was made in the Legislative Council on 23rd May where to this Court should be made? And will his government it was stated that the minister is of course conscious that redouble its efforts by using whatever means it may, the Bill is important to many members and he has

Minimum Wage Legislation — Question by Mr Lowey TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T903

undertaken to do all he can to ensure that the Bill, as (2) will you inform this hon. Court of the results of the • amended, is introduced without further unreasonable delay. investigations, and Now, that is, I think, the statement that was made. Now, unfortunately, I understand that this hinges around (3) were the disclosures attributable to a member of a problem that has been found in the UK legislation Tynwald, what action would you propose should be appertaining to handicapped persons in employment and taken against that member? this is what has had to be drafted, but I am now given to understand that it will be introduced in October and that The President: The Minister for the Treasury to reply. will be at the beginning of the next session, sir. Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. With regard to Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, would the Chief Minister not part (1) of the question, I can say that investigations are as agree that the real reason is, once again, when it comes to completed as far as is practicable. social legislation for the working people there are all With regard to the second part of the question, this excuses? If it was altitude-sick sheep we would have had question being asked does give me the opportunity today it in here months ago. And would he also give an assurance to inform the Court of the investigations. to this hon. Court it will be a meaningful level at a minimum In answer to part (3), I am unable to positively prove of a fiver an hour? who was responsible for the leak. All I have is certain circumstantial evidence. As hon. members will appreciate, Mr Gelling: Mr President, I have given members again those to whom details have been leaked are usually the advice that I have been given and that is that it will be reluctant to reveal their sources and pursuing this avenue here for the start of the next session and I cannot agree further is likely to prove unproductive. that it has been anything other than the amendment that has held us up. There has been nothing whatsoever to do Mr Henderson: Mr President, I thank the Treasury with because it was one type of legislation or the other minister for that frank answer but would urge him to further and of course I am pleased to be able to say that our carry on with the investigation really to see if a source can indications are that we will have it at the beginning of the be found because would he not agree with me that given Keys session in October, sir. the recent unfortunate circumstances where a member of Tynwald was publicly keelhauled, that at the very least Mr Lowey: One final question for the Chief Minister. should be the same to happen to the perpetrator of this Would the Chief Minister not agree it is regrettable that it alleged leak, and if it was a government minister, they has taken two years to get legislation drawn up since this Court accepted the principle of a minimum wage, and can should resign their position? I draw his attention to the phrase he used in moving an amendment to the original proposal, that there was a Mrs Cannell: Hear, hear. political will, and would he not agree that two years is taxing that statement to the full? Mr Corkill: I cannot add any more to the first response, Mr President. It would be unproductive, and, I would Mr Gelling: There is a political will, Mr President, and suggest, a waste of time and resources to pursue the matter of course I am concerned that in fact it has been stated that any further. we have broken promises. Only six weeks ago we reported to both Houses what the situation was and that, unfortunately, we were not able to bring it forward, so we Waste Management Studies — have been keeping members informed. Now, where the Question by Mrs Hannan situation came that it would actually be introduced prior to the closedown for the summer, I do not know, but The President: Item 31, hon. member for Peel. certainly that is not something or information that was made available to me. Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I beg to ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment:

Tax Initiatives — Alleged Disclosure of (1) How many waste management studies have been Information — Question by Mr Henderson carried out since 1988 when the present waste management policy was approved; and The President: Item 30, hon. member for Douglas North. (2) have all the studies been published?

Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to ask Mr Gilbey: Mr President, following a lengthy search the Minister for the Treasury: of our archives, it would appear that, with the exception of tender evaluation reports, interim and update documents, ( 1) When do you expect to complete your investigations routine monitoring reports and internal working group into the alleged disclosure of information of your reports, 48 studies have been carried out in the period proposed new tax initiatives; quoted, i.e. the period of 12 years.

Tax Initiatives — Alleged Disclosure of Information — Question by Mr Henderson Waste Management Studies — Question by Mrs Hannan T904 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

Of those studies, 30 were site-specific but related to Further, is his own consultative committee on the development proposals such as Wright's Pit East, Stoney Richmond Hill site proposal being briefed in relation to • Mountain, The Raggatt and Middle Farm, four related to the copy of the reports that he has? Do they have access to site identification options for landfill and the remainder those reports? dealt with specific waste proposals or waste management Finally, is it not incumbent upon this department and areas. As far as can be ascertained, none of the studies has this minister to make public that which is financed by the been published. public purse? In view of the public concern in relation to this matter, is it not imperative and incumbent upon him The President: A supplementary, hon. member for Peel. to make these reports available to members of the public who provide him with the necessary money to finance his Mrs Hannan: Could I ask the minister why none of projects? them has been published? Surely the information contained in many of these documents would be helpful to this Court Mr Gilbey: I would say the answers to these are, should and would be helpful to us understanding the waste we make local authorities aware of the reports? Where management policy of the department and how they have appropriate they have been consulted about them. You say, been progressing their policy of reduce, reuse, recycle, `Where are the reports?' Which reports? We are talking incinerate and disposal to this period. about reports going back to 1988 and, as I have said, there are some 48 of them in all. Mr Gilbey: Well, I cannot explain why they were not Regarding Richmond Hill consultative committee, they made public before I became minister. Since I have been have been made fully aware of approximately the same minister it seems to me most of them were things of detail, information as members of Tynwald regarding the or a lot of them, such as the details for the southern civic incinerator project and indeed we had a special meeting amenity site, the eastern civic amenity site, traffic-calming with them to explain everything to them. • management in Bride, et cetera, and, Mr President, I think Regarding generally making reports public, all branches it is quite normal that many departments have numerous of government have very many reports which are not made reports which they do not all make public. They only make public and I am sure there is not a department that is not public what they are doing as a conclusion of those reports constantly having reports that they do not make public. It and certainly we have been right in the forefront of saying is just like running a business, you cannot make every detail what we are doing. Our policies are clearly set out in the of what you are considering doing public the whole time, policy document. you can make the conclusions available, and that is what we do and the conclusions are very clearly set out in the Mr Rimington: Would the minister agree with the scenario that the public inquiry, Middle Farm, Braddan, policy document and will be clearly set out in the new had numerous reports commissioned for that which gave policy document which will come before this hon. Court the tonnage of waste arisings and at that public inquiry a in October. large shadow of doubt was expressed by the inspector on those reports and subsequent to that, minister, a report was Mrs Hannan: Would the minister accept that we are commissioned by your department, which you have yet to not running a business? publish, by RPS Cairns? Would the minister consider Would the minister also accept that there was an SLR publishing the latest report which highlights the difference report 2000 recently published and will he make that of RPS Cairns who gave the incinerable waste of 42,000 specific report public? Will he make it available to members and your own most recent information of 56,000? of this hon. Court? Mr Gilbey: I have no intention, Mr President, of Mr Gilbey: Regarding not running a business, • publishing either report. I have actually arranged that the sometimes it would be better if we were more businesslike full presentation that has been made to other members of and more efficient. Tynwald regarding the incinerator should be offered to the hon. member who has posed this last supplementary Mrs Hannan: There is such a thing as democracy. question and when that presentation is made it will make quite clear the basis of the waste arisings that have been Mr Gilbey: The decisions that are made or taken in planning for the incinerator. I hope that the hon. recommendations that are made always come to this hon. member will take up the offer to have a personal Court and I do not think that it would be right for every presentation and the officers should soon be approaching process that every department has in considering the him to make that offer and arrange a date with him. policies brought to this Court should be made public. Regarding the SLR report referred to, I see no reason to Mrs Cannell: Mr President, would the hon. minister at make any exception to that report. We constantly are least consider making available these reports to local making the public and this hon. Court aware of our plans authorities, who, under the Public Health (Amendment) and indeed there is a motion specifically referring to the Act 2000 may well be put into a position where they are southern amenity site later on this agenda, so no-one in not only responsible for the collection but also for the this hon. Court can claim they are not fully aware of the disposal of waste? Should he not be sharing the contents actions that the department is taking and its overall strategy of those reports with local authorities? of minimilisation, reuse, recycling and incineration. Waste Management Studies — Question by Mrs Hannan • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T905

Stand-Alone Sewerage Works — development before a mains system of disposal can be Question by Mr Lowey achieved. In conclusion, I should like to remind this hon. Court that these arrangements are of course expected to be The President: Item 32, hon. member of the Council, necessary for only a comparatively short period pending Mr Lowey. the construction of the complete IRIS scheme. The Mr Lowey: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to department will ensure that approval for any temporary arrangements is conditional upon there being a connection ask the Minister for Local Government and the Environment: to the IRIS system once this is available in any particular area. ( 1) What is the policy of your Department with regard Mr Lowey: Would the minister not agree that his to stand-alone sewerage works; department is part of the government machine and government have been aware for the last few years that (2) has the policy changed recently; we have a housing crisis looming and growing, so therefore the policy of discharge and developing of land is a major (3) if so, when and how was the change of policy made part of the minister's portfolio? Therefore I think when public, and we have this revised policy by government to allow stand alone, which is a change in policy, would he not agree that (4) have you consulted the Department of Transport it would have been very advisable for his department, on this issue lately? which is responsible for the provision of housing, to have prioritised stand-alone development for sewerage works The President: Again I call upon the Minister for Local in developments that emphasise first-time buyers' houses? Government and the Environment. Mr Gilbey: Well, I totally agree that part of the Mr Gilbey: Mr President, as the hon. Court will be government machine is the Department of Local aware, the Department of Local Government has amongst Government. I totally agree that the policy of discharge is its varied responsibilities town and country planning and important. environmental health. As part of this responsibility we seek Regarding the question of just making these to ensure that the sewage arising in both existing and arrangements for first-time buyers' houses, I would not proposed developments is collected and disposed of in a want to repeat what my hon. colleague, the Minister for satisfactory manner. Most of the Island's sewage is Transport, so clearly and eloquently set out. I totally agree disposed of either through outlet sewers to the sea or to with what he said. inland treatment works and hence to streams or rivers. The stand-alone sewage works to which the hon. member of Council refers is, I understand, a form of treatment plant which is available commercially as a self- Local Authority Scheme — contained package. There is no difference in principle Contravention of Act — between the function of these plants and the function of Question by Mr Lowey our existing inland treatment works. The specific capacity and performance may vary according to the customer's The President: We turn to question 33 on the order requirements. paper. Hon. member of the Council, Mr Lowey. The department receives advice and guidance from the Department of Transport and from other drainage Mr Lowey: I beg leave to ask the Minister for Local authorities as to the suitability of the drainage arrangements Government and the Environment, sir: for any new development. If we are in any particular instance advised that a stand-alone treatment plant of Why has your department allowed a local authority appropriate specification would be satisfactory and if there to develop, at substantial expense and over a period of are acceptable arrangements for the future maintenance of two years, a scheme to provide accommodation for a that plant, we are likely to grant approval. Our approach medical centre, local authority administration and a police and policy in this respect has not changed. presence without informing the local authority that, in the The Department of Transport has recently advised the view of your department, its scheme was in contravention Department of Local Government that its own stance, that of the Local Government Act 1985? of the Department of Transport in this matter, has been revised and the nature of this revision has been explained The President: Minister. to this hon. Court by my colleague, the hon. member for Castletown. Mr Gilbey: Mr President, in 1997 the Malew The department is striving to provide additional housing Commissioners made the Department of Local units in accordance with the approved housing policy and Government and the Environment aware of their proposals until such time as IRIS is completed feels that stand-alone to build new commissioners' offices, doctors' surgeries treatment is an acceptable way of facilitating such and police offices at Ballasalla. It was agreed that detailed

Stand-Alone Sewerage Works — Question by Mr Lowey Local Authority Scheme — Contravention of Act — Question by Mr Lowey T906 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 plans should be submitted and the commissioners should proposal falls outside the commissioners' statutory liaise with the technical staff of the department before functions. The department is therefore proposing an moving on to the next step. The commissioners would amendment to the Local Government Act, to be brought require no formal statutory approval from the department in to another place in October, to empower local authorities in relation to this project until such time as they wished to to progress developments of this nature to the benefit of obtain borrowing approval under section 51 of the Local the communities, subject only to department approval. Government Act 1985. Subsequent to this, commissioners' once having seen Mr Lowey: I thank the hon. member for his long and the scheme, the department became concerned as to detailed reply and I welcome the support of the department whether or not the development was within the statutory for my local commissioners, but would the minister not powers of the local authority. Under the 1985 Local agree that if the interpretation put on the 1985 Act today Government Act, section 24, the local authority has power, had been applied to other local authorities' developments `to acquire or provide halls, offices and other buildings or throughout the Island they too would find that they had premises for any of the following purposes:- (a) the contravened the 1985 Act, and why is it being applied now transaction of the business of the authority and of its to the Malew Commissioners and not to other local officers and servants; (b) the exercise of any function of authorities in the past? the authority; (c) the holding of public meetings and assemblies; and (d) the provision of recreation facilities Mr Gilbey: I can only reply to that, Mr President, that of any description'. Under the same Act section 16 (1) neither I nor the department have information of any other states that a local authority also has power 'to do anything commissioners having contravened this law. If the hon. (whether or not involving the expenditure, borrowing or member of Council does, he should obviously advise us, lending of money or the acquisition or disposal of any but we do not know of any and certainly I am sure we property) which is calculated to facilitate, or is conducive would not have allowed any. or incidental to, the discharge of any of its functions.' I can point out one thing, that of course the question of Therefore it would appear that a local authority is the occupancy is the percentage planned for each party at empowered to provide premises for any of the purposes the time of the development, when permission is sought specified in section 24 (1) (a) to (d). It may include other under the terms of the petition to the department. Once premises not for its own purposes, provided that the that is done, if they subsequently change it, then the provision of the latter premises, that is, the other premises, situation is different and it may well be that the cases he is is ancillary to the former, i.e. that the latter were only referring to are cases where, when the original application incidental to the main purposes of the building. of the petition was made, there was going to be under 50 Malew Commissioners were advised in November 1998 per cent for others apart from the local authority concerned, that there was concern as to whether or not the parts of the but since then, perhaps over many years, the percentage development which are not for local authority functional has increased to over 50 per cent. That may be the reason use can reasonably be taken as ancillary to those parts of for the situations to which he is referring. the development which are for such use. As such, the commissioners would have to demonstrate to the Mr Lowey: Would the minister not confirm that I have department on submission of a petition for funding that given to his officers some local authorities? I am not going the parts of the development intended for commissioners' to name them at the moment, but I will do in due course if functions were reasonable in their provision and that other necessary. functions served by the proposed premises could be But would the minister not agree that in 1997 the deemed to be ancillary thereto. In April 1999 the department had been invited to change the law to commissioners advised the department that over 50 per accommodate local authorities' wishes and isn't it the role cent of the building would be put to local authority use. of the local government department to encourage local The department did consider the question of whether it authorities to take an interest and to develop meaningful wished to extend the powers of local authorities to permit work for their authorities and denying them the right to general development for the benefit of their areas, but at meet a legitimate requirement for their community, i.e. the that time the department was preparing a paper for the provision of medical services and a police presence, should Council of Ministers on local government reform which be of prime concern to a local authority? would have gone some way to address this issue. In October 1999 the Council of Ministers decided not to progress local Mr Gilbey: I cannot answer as to whether we were government reform any further for the present and recently asked to change the law in 1997, Mr President. I am advised the department has received a request from a local authority that the department was made aware of the commissioners' seeking to obtain wider functional powers more in keeping proposals to build new offices including doctors' surgeries with powers available for authorities in the UK. and police offices at Ballasalla at that time and it was agreed In May 2000, this year, the scheme was presented to that detailed plans should be submitted and that the department officers and it was considered that the scheme commissioners should liaise with the technical staff in the again failed to fall within the authority's functions. department before moving on to to the next step, and as I The department recognises the importance of this have said, they did not need formal approval until they scheme to the community in Ballasalla and fully supports wished to obtain borrowing approval. As soon as it was the commissioners. The difficulty is that at present the discovered that more than 50 per cent was not going to be

Local Authority Scheme — Contravention of Act — Question by Mr Lowey TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T907

The President: Now, hon. members, the motion 0 for the commissioners' use, they were advised, and I could say, as the learned Attorney, I am sure, will provide, that proposed to suspend standing orders has therefore failed. ignorance of the law is no excuse. They should have known The questions then - 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 and 39 - you will the law just as well as the department. receive the written answer in compliance with standing orders within 48 hours and I understand that the questions The President: Hon. members, it would appear that it for written answer - 40, 41, 42 and 43 - have already been is an appropriate time at which to adjourn. Hon. member, circulated. Douglas East. Hon. members, the Court will now stand adjourned until 2.30. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. May I, sir, request: The Court adjourned at 1.12 p.m. That standing order 3.5(2) and 3.8 be suspended to enable the remaining questions tabled for oral answer to Dioxins and Other Toxicity — be put after the luncheon adjournment. Population Monitoring — Mr Duggan: I will second that, sir. Question by Mrs Cannell for Written Answer The President: Hon. members, it was my intention to tell you that we had reached 33 and from 34 to 39 would Question 34 have complied with standing order 3.8 which would have meant that they would have received a written answer The hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, to within 48 hours. The hon. member is proposing a ask the Minister for Health and Social Security: suspension of standing orders to continue with the question paper after the luncheon break. Hon. member for Is it the intention of your department to assist in Castletown. establishing a method of assessing body weight for monitoring dioxins and other toxicity in the Island Mr Brown: Yes, Mr President. I oppose the move for population, and if so - that. The answers to the questions will be given in the normal way and I have to say there is more to Tynwald (a) who will conduct the assessment; Court than just asking questions and having them answered in the way that we have. We have expended our full (b) how many persons will be tested; morning and I believe that that is adequate, sir. (c) who will conduct the analysis; The President: Hon. members, the motion before the Court is that the standing orders be suspended to allow (d) who will assemble and present the findings, questions to continue this afternoon. Will those in favour and please say aye; against, no. The noes have it. (e) how long will this process take? A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: Answer In the Keys - ® I can confirm that it is not the intention of my department For: Messrs Quine, Rimington, Houghton, Henderson, to establish a study on the lines suggested by the hon. Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Cannell, Messrs member. However, the director of public health is currently Singer, Cannell and the Speaker - 11 investigating what studies have been conducted in the United Kingdom using random samples in populations Against: Messrs Gilbey, Rodan, North, Mrs Crowe, Messrs similar to our own, to assess the body burden of dioxins Brown, Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Bell, and other toxicity. I regret I am unable to provide any time Karran, Corkill and Gelling - 12 indication as regards this research.

The Speaker: Mr President, the motion fails to carry in the House of Keys, 11 votes in favour, 12 votes against. Breast Cancer Drugs — Availability — Question by Mrs Cannell In the Council - for Written Answer

For: Messrs Lowey, Waft, Kniveton, Radcliffe, Mrs Question 35 Christian and Mr Crowe - 6 The hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, to Against: None ask the Minister for Health and Social Security:

Dioxins and Other Toxicity — Population Monitoring — Question by Mrs Cannell for Written Answer Breast Cancer Drugs — Availability — Question by Mrs Cannell for Written Answer T908 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

Are the drugs Taxol and Taxotere, which are used Road Closures — Review — Question by in the treatment of ovarian and breast cancer, available Mr Karran for Written Answer on the National Health Service in the Isle of Man? Question 37 Answer The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, to ask the I can confirm that both drugs are available on the Chief Minister: National Health Service in the Isle of Man, subject only to a clinical indication as to appropriateness in individual Will the Council of Ministers review the criteria used cases. for road closures within Mann?

Answer Motorcycle Events — DAFF Directive — DTL Response — Question by Mr Cannell There are no plans for the Council of Ministers to review the criteria used for road closures as responsibility for road for Written Answer closures, rests with the Department of Transport. An interdepartmental working party, set up by the minister, Question 36 including representatives of the Department of Tourism and Leisure, was established in September 1998 and The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell, to ask the studied and reported on road closures in June 1999. Minister for Tourism and Leisure: No new major review is contemplated, but the situation What representations has your department made in is continuously monitored and efforts are made to strike regard to a recent directive by the Department of an appropriate balance between facilitating the event which Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry threatening prompts the road closure and inconvenience to the prosecution of local motorcycle clubs which continue to travelling public. run events featuring rivers and streams, given that many of these events are promoted in the interests of tourism? As part of this continuous monitoring the department welcomes comments and suggestions from members and Answer from the public and if the hon. member has views to express they should be directed to the Department of Transport. In answering question number 21 my colleague, the hon. Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, has provided the Court with an explanation of the Presidency of Tynwald — Royal Assent — correspondence between his department and the Isle of Question by Mr Karran for Written Answer Man Centre of the ACU. Until the matter was raised by the hon. member for Onchan I had not been informed of Question 38 any letter and, indeed, have only very recently seen a faxed copy of it. Thus the department of Tourism and Leisure The hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, to ask the has not made any representations to the Department of Chief Minister: Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry in this matter. When will your government introduce legislation - Now that I am aware of the letter, I am obviously concerned that there may be an adverse effect on a number (1) to provide for the President of Tynwald to preside of important tourism events and local leisure activities. at sittings of Tynwald on Tynwald Day at St John's; and Equally, however, I am very conscious that the motorcycle community, through both the FIM at world level and the (2) to provide for Royal Assent to Bills passed by ACU at British level, are making efforts which continue Tynwald to be granted on the advice of the Isle of to minimise the potential adverse environmental impact Man Government? of some motorcycling activities. This is, of course, a responsibility equally shared with those involved in Answer agriculture and disposal of sewage in terms of the importance of river ecology. There are two distinct issues raised in this question.

I share the view of the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries The second part is the more straightforward and, as I and Forestry that there is a need for dialogue, and I have see it, asks when there will be a Bill to secure independence asked him to invite me to any such meeting for further for the Isle of Man, because if Royal Assent is granted to discussion. I would suggest the local branch of the AMCA legislation on the advice of the Isle of Man Government, should also receive an invitation, as they organise, among that is independence. We have no plans to introduce such other events, the Classic two-day trial. a Bill into the branches.

Motorcycle Events — DAFF Directive — DTL Response — Question by Mr Cannell for Written Answer Road Closures — Review — Question by Mr Karran for Written Answer Presidency of Tynwald — Royal Assent — Question by Mr Karran for Written Answer TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T909

0 As regards the presidency of the July Tynwald, this is advised that it is anticipated by the officers of my an issue which is before the Constitutional and External department that the works should be completed Relations Committee of the Council of Ministers but which during this summer, and if so completed, then the has had a lower priority than other matters in the run-up to adoption of the highways can be proceeded with. this year's Tynwald. The committee has now turned its attention to the issue once again and expects to be in a position to report to the Council of Ministers before the Public Service Vehicle Licence end of the summer. — Question by Mr Henderson for Written Answer

Toxic Chemicals — Report on Health Question 41 Implications — Question by Mrs Cannell for Written Answer The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Transport: Question 39 (1) May a vehicle classed as a contract carriage and The hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, to operated under a public service vehicle licence also ask the Minister for Local Government and the operate as a hackney carriage for non-pre-booking Environment: work; and

When do you expect to report on the health (2) if so, are there insurance implications for implications of human exposure to dioxin and other toxic passengers? chemical components, in compliance with the June 2000 resolution of this hon. Court? Answer

Answer (1) A public service vehicle cannot be inspected or issued with a certificate of fitness for use as a It is the department's intention to provide a report in hackney carriage and consequently cannot therefore sufficient time for it to be considered in time for the October legally operate as a hackney carriage. Tynwald. The Inspection of Taxis and Hire Vehicle Regulations 2000, which came into operation on Governor's Hill Development — 17th April 2000, make new provision for the annual inspection of hackney carriages to ensure Adoption of Roads — Question by compliance with prescribed requirements as to Mr Henderson for Written Answer fitness and equipment and to prevent the use of a vehicle as both a public service vehicle and a Question 40 hackney.

The hon. member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson, (2) The implications are that the insurance of the to ask the Minister for Transport: vehicle would be adversely affected and could be invalid. When do you expect all the relevant roads on the Governor's Hill development to be adopted?

Answer Incineration — Electricity Supply to the MEA — Question by Mr Rimington (1) The most recent inspection was undertaken for Written Answer by officers of my department on Monday, 19th June 2000 during which several defects were again Question 42 identified and the developer's agent who was present during the inspection confirmed their The hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington, to ask liability. the Minister for Local Government and the Environment:

(2) The department awaits the remedial works With respect to the electricity supply to the Manx being completed to the required standards prior to Electricity Authority from the proposed incinerator, what a further inspection. Providing the highways are will be - brought up to the normal required standard, then the formal adoption of the highways forming the (1) the unit price (Kw/h) to be paid by the Manx Governor's Hill estate will be promoted. I am Electricity Authority;

Toxic Chemicals — Report on Health Implications — Question by Mrs Cannell for Written Answer Governor's Hill Development — Adoption of Roads — Question by Mr Henderson for Written Answer Public Service Vehicle Licence — Question by Mr Henderson for Written Answer Incinerator — Electricity Supply to the MEA — Question by Mr Rimington for Written Answer T910 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

(2) the expected gross electrical output (Kw/h) per (4) The average calorific profile of the waste annum; streams can be calculated from (3) above and the • average calorific profile is: (3) the gross annual waste tonnage to sustain that output; primary waste stream 10.75MJ/kg

(4) the average calorific profile of the waste stream; secondary waste stream 10.57MJ/kg (5) under normal working conditions - (5) 'Normal working conditions' needs to be (a) the gross thermal output (MK); further defined in order to unambiguously respond to this question. (b) gross electrical recovery (MK); The primary waste incinerator will normally (c) the net electrical output to the Manx be operating continuously with two-four planned Electricity Authority grid (MK) after plant outages per annum. The preferred tenderer has electrical consumption; and confirmed that the primary waste incinerator will be operating a minimum 7,884 hours per annum (6) what would be the revised figures under paragraph and this is in accordance with good industry (5)(a) to (c) were there to be a (i) 20 per cent, (ii) practice. 30 per cent or (iii) 40 per cent reduction in the gross waste tonnage processed by the incinerator? The secondary waste incinerator will be Answer operating much more on an on-off basis. The • preferred tenderer has indicated that it is expected (1) Schedule 6 of the project agreement sets out that the facility will be operating continuously four the tariffs applicable to private generators or days per week. The secondary waste incinerator suppliers. Clause 6.1 confirms a unit charge of 2,85 must operate approximately 5,000 hours per annum pence per kWh supplied. to incinerate the tonnages indicated under (3) above. The annual availability can, if necessary, be (2) The expected gross electrical output in kWh/ increased to 7,500 hours per annum. annum, i.e. power exported from the facility to the MEA, is 37,578,000kWh/annum. This has been In response to question (5)(a) raised, we will confirmed by the preferred tenderer in their answers confirm that there is no thermal output, as excess to questions in a letter dated 25th February 2000, heat is cooled away. The facility is prepared so that question F3. Please note that a fraction of (2 per cent) of this electrical output originates from excess it relatively easily can be connected to a future heat recovered in the secondary waste incinerator. district heating scheme.

(3) The gross annual waste tonnage to sustain In response to (5)(b) and (c), we can confirm the output listed above is listed below. Please also that the average electrical output to the MEA grid be aware that the annual tonnage capacity of the is 4,84 MW. We can also confirm that the average two incinerators exceeds the tonnages listed below: power consumption of the facility is 0.709MW when the primary incinerator only is operating and Primary Waste that it increases to 0.949MW when both incinerators • Category Tonnage/year Net Calorific Value are operating. municipal 55,000 10.7MJ/kg solid waste (6) The preferred tenderer has not specifically prepared an answer to the questions raised in (6), shredded tyres 120 32.0MJ/kg but they have confirmed that the average facility efficiency decreases with decreasing gross waste Secondary Waste tonnages. This is also in accordance with our expectations. From the indications given by the Category Tonnage/year Net Calorific Value preferred tenderer it is our understanding that the reduction in electrical recovery would be as listed animal waste 4,000 8.3MJ/kg below: clinical waste 250 17.0MJ/kg (i) (ii) (iii) sewage 250 10.0MJ/kg screenings gross waste tonnage reduction 20% 30% 40%

waste oil 250 41.0MJ/kg reduction in electrical recovery 24% 35% 46% Incinerator — Electricity Supply to the MEA — Question by Mr Rimington for Written Answer • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T911

Minicipal Solid Waste — turn to item 3 on the order paper and I call upon the hon. Question by Mrs Cannell member for Douglas North, Mr Henderson. for Written Answer Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: Question 43 That - The hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs Cannell, to ask the Minister for Local Government and the (1) the Department of Local Government and the Environment: Environment -

In each of the years 1997 to 1999, what percentage of (a) determine the number of residential units in municipal solid waste was - (i) private and (ii) public ownership, and

( 1) recycled; and (b) determine the number of privately owned residential units available for rental, and (2) landfilled? (c) analyse the nature of the accommodation Answer available in the units, and The computerised weighbridge system at Wright's Pit (2) on the basis of the information in paragraph ( 1), East landfill site came into operation on 7th March 1999. the department develop an 'avoidance of empty This was the first time that accurate records of the weight of waste being disposed of became available since disposal homes' strategy, in conjunction with the local of waste ceased at The Raggatt. authorities and the private sector, to maximise the use of existing residential units, together with any For this reason no accurate information is available proposals for additional statutory provisions before this date. The March 1999 to March 2000 total of required to enable the department to encourage and waste being disposed of at the site was 104,000 tonnes. supervise such use; and report. This includes 37,000 tonnes of mixed domestic and commercial (office) waste and 11,000 tonnes of civic Empty houses. The roots of this Tynwald motion are amenity waste. During this period, 800 tonnes of glass, 18 embedded in the January 2000 housing debate which this tonnes of aluminium, 650 tonnes of quality paper and 5200 hon. Court progressed as a consequence of the DoLGE tonnes of scrap metal were taken off-Island for recycling. housing policy review 1999 being received. I highlighted to the minister, as on many other occasions, that what he Whilst it is not possible to determine how much of the was advancing as the panacea to all the Island's housing recycled waste was municipal solid waste, it should be noted problems only partially met the housing needs of this that, during March 1999 to March 2000, 6,668 tonnes of community and fell short of the mark in some areas. I waste was recycled whilst 48,000 tonnes of municipal solid highlighted these areas, anomalies, until I was blue in the waste went to landfill. This means that the total amount of face. Further to this I followed up my debating points with waste recycled was comparable to 14 per cent of the total several questions in the February 2000 House of Keys in amount of municipal solid waste which went to landfill. relation to those shortcomings, so this motion should not come as any surprise. In fact I should have moved it earlier There is no reason to believe that earlier figures will be if anything. My legitimate concerns were brushed aside different from those quoted above. and the people of this Island requiring housing in both public and private sectors were left demoralised and fed up. Announcement of Royal Assent The points I raised and am raising now for the purposes of this resolution are quite simple. Proper supervision of The President: Hon. members, I have to announce that local authorities in the administration and maintenance the Royal Assent was given to the Agricultural programmes of local authority housing stock. Some local (Miscellaneous Provision) Act 2000 and the Police authorities are failing dismally in this area as empty public (Amendment) Act 2000 and the Church Records Measure housing stock abounds, some empty for nearly two years. 2000 today. The maintenance and habitable state of some of the local authority housing being passed as fit for the next tenant is an absolute disgrace and the minister knows this as I have shown him photographic evidence of it. In fact if anything Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes I am playing this issue down. — Amended Motion Carried Encouraging and making grants available to renovating older properties into multi-occupancy dwellings, flats and The President: We turn then to our order paper once best use of brownfield sites is another issue. The housing again and we have completed the question paper so we report was based on an outdated census report. There was

Municipal Solid Waste — Question by Mrs Cannell for Written Answer Announcement of Royal Assent Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried T912 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 no illustration in the report of a full and lengthy consultation constructed to meet the needs of the community in a cost process with local authorities and there was no assessment effective way, when the most obvious and basic elements • of local authority housing condition or mention of spot are missed off? Houses which are already built and can be checks on the condition of houses which were ready for occupied fairly rapidly, both private and public, should be occupancy following the vacation by previous tenants. the first issue to be addressed, a first principle to work But the biggest omission by far in my opinion - and no from before moving on into more technical areas. doubt - is the failure to incorporate any consultations, if There is no formal empty housing strategy in the green any took place, in this report with the private sector November 1999 document and there should be, but just especially building contractors, estate agents, banks, having a vague policy statement somewhere in the building societies and lawyers. These are the businesses department's paperwork or general awareness of the on the sharp end who are dealing with the real housing situation is not sufficient. The most effective use of present issues day in and day out. I was astonished there was no housing stock, private and public, is not being achieved. reference made to this important element which surely Never mind building more - we cannot, it seems, even would have an impact on how the housing policy manage what we have already got. Further empty homes recommendations would be formulated. There is nothing vacant for excessive periods of time only attract honey- illustrated or indicated as to what has been taken into pot crime, resentment from people on housing waiting lists, account. Further, there was no reference to consultation become overgrown and untidy - or worse, boarded up - with other departments such as the DHSS and Education causing the amenity value of an area to be dragged down who are experiencing staff recruitment and retention even further (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) or adjacent or problems in the main due to the fact of there being no attached properties to become degraded or damaged as a adequate and affordable or rentable property available. result. The goodwill of neighbours is stretched to the limit. People desperate for public housing, looking at units These type of assessments and consultations are absolutely empty for up to two years. Certainly, the information I central - crucial, to my mind - to any housing review • received from my House of Keys question in February document in attempting to establish as far as possible the 2000 and recent further information from the department most accurate current housing situation within the Island. indicate that there are in the region of 70 empty houses I pleaded with the minister at the time about careful still around in the public sector, both local government analysis of need, careful assessment. I mentioned and local authority. This only causes deep resentment and environmental scanning techniques. I spoon-fed him the despair and it does cause a loss of faith in people's methods which his managers ought to have been using politicians. Only last night I was standing in front of a fine and illustrated in this report, which is this green document three bedroom semi-detached house in my constituency that I am sure we have all seen - to no avail. Nothing has and was being berated by neighbours telling me that it had happened in that respect. Not even in the latest update been empty for 18 months plus - and with some 1200 report which is at item 34 for this hon. Court to consider people on the local authority lists, I find that hard to take. later in proceedings. Only an indication that the house- Now that I have set the scene, this is where my motion buying market may be slowing up. Well, that is not a lot of comes in. It provides for a comprehensive survey of light at the end of the tunnel and it certainly does not existing housing stock: what types of accommodation that generate in me any optimism for all the young first-time stock comprises of, how much is in public ownership, how buyers and second-time buyers waiting miserably on the much in private ownership and how many units are empty property ladder. When property prices started to accelerate and for how long. It then goes on to provide a structure to in the late 1980s and then plateaued out in the early '90s it deal with empty homes and properties empty for excessive did not fall back to original prices, so let us not be too periods of time or for other unacceptable reasons. It also naive over these reports because if that was the case there asks that the minister report back to this hon. Court with would have been a property market crash. In the main the such a strategy and ideas as soon as is practicable on how • prices stabilised and did not drop significantly, if at all, to solve this particular unacceptable problem. As I say, at and that is exactly what in all likelihood may happen now present there are roughly 70 empty public sector houses if there is any slowing up. People would still be faced with and numerous empty private sector properties but a more unaffordable rents and property prices, so I have little definitive assessment could possibly highlight the real option but to progress with a Tynwald motion when all numbers and, in my opinion, go a long way to solving the else has failed. present housing crisis being able to make an indent into How can you have a supposedly robust housing review people on the housing lists. This does not, though, document with a set of supposedly sound recommendations incorporate the large amount of vacant and empty dwelling and at the same time have empty houses scattered around space over commercial properties that is also presently the community, both public and private? Some for over a available. Also an examination of what brownfield sites year, some private even longer. It is disgusting, it is immoral were currently available and how long some of these were and in my opinion it is a national disgrace-especially when allowed to be kept as undeveloped would be beneficial as some of these are public sector houses and when we are in they provide extremely valuable home building land and a housing crisis already. It should not be allowed. Common remove the pressure on greenfield development and sense, basic approaches should be first and foremost then, associated problems of planning permission and work on the more technical answers or at least run them environmental issues. parallel. But, for goodness sake, how can you have a Local authorities, in partnership with DoLGE and the credible housing review, accurate and supposedly private sector, have a vital role in helping to bring back Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T913 into use empty properties that are otherwise up to standard the number of empty homes and properties and how success or with some renovation and grant aid would be adequate. would be measured. Powers of compulsory purchase The department should be working in conjunction with should now be a serious option and associated required local authorities in generating an empty homes and property legislation examined and constructed in reference to strategy that informs and directs all their efforts. In what I properties and brownfield land which are being kept vacant hope will become the department's new strategy, guidance for what is considered an excessive period of time, or by will be offered to local authorities and encouragement in the actions of land-banking speculators. The Island is too the preparation and publishing of such a strategy. A good small for such practices. strategy can ensure that policies are based on At this juncture I must place an important caveat to this comprehensive and reliable information about the scale of by stating that what I am discussing are the exceptions, the problem and the opportunities that exist. It can raise not the pensioner who has to go into hospital for a lengthy awareness of empty homes as an issue that must be tackled. period or the pensioner who has to go into nursing care or It can provide for targets and monitoring and for liaison the person who goes on holiday or indeed the person who with housing partners and with residents. Such a strategy has to go away on business for lengthy periods of time: all can bring together resources and priorities for using them. these situations leaving a house empty. These have nothing Help for owners can be enhanced and made available to do with my resolution and are obvious exemptions, in through further and extended renovation grants or new my opinion, which would be excluded from any strategy. schemes. It can inform, assist and encourage private I am discussing common-sense approaches here. At the property owners to join into the scheme on a voluntary end of the day I am advocating strongly for a partnership basis. Help for people who intend to become tenants can and jointly-agreed approach to this idea but very be made available. unfortunately and reluctantly have to accept the reality of All authorities, including DoLGE, ought to set targets the moment and take cognisance of the fact of serious for reducing the number of empty homes in their areas. deficiencies in the management and functioning of some They should ensure that full and accurate information is of our local authorities (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) and assembled, that all their resources available for meeting some unscrupulous speculators in respect of housing and the targets are identified and that the actions that will be the inordinate amount of empty private housing and taken are clearly defined and predictable. With empty property littered around Douglas along with brownfield properties in the private sector, local authorities in sites. I am at a complete loss as to why the department and conjunction with the department must have comprehensive the minister have not enacted the Local Government Act strategies. They must work with owners, letting agents and for an inquiry as a result of some of the astonishing housing professionals. They need the support of the public. activities and inactivities that we have all witnessed from Joint working initiatives must be worked up. Local time to time from some local authorities. Therefore, in order authorities and DoLGE must set a good example by making for this idea to work and be driven, it is essential to build sure that public sector houses are fully utilised and do not into any empty homes strategy a legislative mechanism as stand empty, in excessive numbers for excessive periods. a backstop which would allow the department to encourage In fact there must be a minimum standard set for the amount and supervise the management, administration and of time a public sector house should stand empty based on maintenance of public sector housing stock and to ensure average assessments of usual amounts of work required to effective monitoring and joint working within the private make it available to a new tenant following its vacation by sector, as the private sector is progressed and maintained. a previous party. And, if need be, the department must help I beg to move, sir. the local authority, if applicable, to achieve this and as a last resort the department must also have sufficient powers Mr Houghton: Mr President, I wish to second this of persuasion and compulsion to ensure the strategy works. motion by my hon. colleague for all the points that he has The department in conjunction with local authorities made. should work up a scheme to designate an empty homes I would wish to make particular reference to the officer who would be responsible for the work of authorities disgraceful situation regarding empty council houses in and DoLGE in reducing the number of empty homes. The the town of Douglas. As my minister will no doubt officer would be important for co-ordinating the work of comment that work is being undertaken within the the local authorities and department and between all the department to resolve such matters in the long term, my other organisations and professionals I have previously comment to that of course is that is fine. However, action mentioned. The officer should have full power to obtain is required to urgently enforce and assist the town council the necessary information from all sources, including local to turn around empty council houses and re-let them within authority records such as rating data. It may be that these a matter of a few weeks. Just like my colleague, I am aware duties could be taken on by an existing professional within of some properties left empty for sometimes up to three the department or a part-time appointment. The department, years. Perhaps they require a lot of work doing to them. utilising a consultative process with all the Island's local Well, at the rate of for instance only one plasterer employed authorities and private sector agencies, should be required by the corporation this will take years - as it indeed in to prepare and publish an empty homes strategy setting some cases is doing. So why are contractors not employed out local housing need and the number of empty homes, to complete the work? Is it because the government the targets for reducing the incidence of homes standing subsidises the shortfall in receipts so that there is no empty and other properties, the actions to be taken to reduce financial purpose in letting properties in the first place?

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It would do all hon. members good to view a typical The department does have an empty homes strategy as property which had been approved by the corporation for far as the public sector is concerned and housing authorities • re-letting. In some cases where property has been re-let are definitely encouraged to minimise the length of time the new incumbent tenant has shown me the state of the for which any property remains unoccupied. Here I think property - and indeed my colleague - and I can only state I can say that the appendix to this document shows the that I would not let an animal live there, never mind a most serious aspect, which is where certain properties have human being who wants to make it into a home for their been empty for over six months - family. For example a recent complaint received included an allegation of faeces on the walls of a newly-let council Mr Henderson: We have got two years. house. My colleague for North Douglas and myself wrote to the Public Health and Housing Committee on 18th April Mr Gilbey: - which is the most serious thing and arises in an attempt to meet with the committee and discuss issues in the case of Douglas. But to achieve more current data regarding the transfer of tenancies, among other problems. the department is introducing a quarterly reporting system, I have just read the minutes of this committee in the latest incorporating details on empty properties and waiting lists. issue of the corporation minutes. Our offer to meet them At the present time there are in the region of 60 public has been turned down. This meets with no surprise as they sector properties unoccupied, representing 1.1 per cent of are tired of our actions pointing out the errors of their ways. the housing stock. But I am glad to say that this is an It is the opinion of many who live in Douglas, especially improvement on the situation which prevailed at the end those living in council houses, that Douglas Corporation of 1999. has failed wholesale to upkeep their properties and they The average time taken to replace a tenant is between care even less. two and four weeks, with many properties, I am glad to I am sure my colleague will support me when I say that say, being turned around within one week. If the public for as long as we represent North Douglas we shall continue housing stock is to be modernised and maintained at an • to fight for a better standard of living for our constituents. acceptable standard, a figure of one in a hundred properties If that means another Tynwald motion a little further down empty at any one time may not be unreasonable, because the line which may ask that the government must take the we have to accept - anyone who has experience of council houses off Douglas Corporation, then so be it. properties - that it is far easier to do them up and modernise Thank you. them when they are empty rather than when there is a tenant in them and, furthermore, tenants would not always be Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I rise to propose an very pleased for this work to be done while they are in amendment to the resolution moved by the hon. member occupation. The figures that I have quoted are well within for North Douglas and seconded by the second hon. the national average for the north-west, where the aim is member for North Douglas. I totally agree with the principles behind what they are to achieve two per cent empty property stock and an saying and what their aims are but I fear the detail is not average turnaround time is 4.7 weeks. accurate and raises various difficulties. I would say it is Regarding Douglas itself, as I have said, I accept there not correct to claim, as the hon. mover did, that his concerns are very grave concerns regarding the management of their were brushed aside. The department is very concerned housing. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) The hon. members about these matters and particularly concerned about the have mentioned invoking the Local Government Act but, continuing and endless complaints it receives regarding as the learned Attorney has advised previously, in other certain housing policies of Douglas Corporation. (Mr respects and as I reported to this hon. Court, to take such a step is a very draconian one. It would be equally draconian Houghton: Hear, hear.) It is also not true to say that no action has been taken. I to take away all their housing stock from them. can show that action has been taken dealing with part (1) Mr Houghton: It will have to be done eventually. • (a) (b) and (c) of his resolution. The Department of Local Government and the Environment is already in the process, in conjunction with the rating section of the Treasury, of Mr Gilbey: Well, if this hon. Court felt it had to be determining the up-to-date number of residential units in done, I certainly would have no objection. I think there private and public ownership, broken down into parish would be great efficiencies if all the Island's public sector areas, and analysing the accommodation available within housing was run by one body, if that is the wish of this such units. That is some of the work which the resolution hon. Court, but it is not the policy at the present time. seeks to be done: it is being done. The department are also Now, I would totally agree with the sentiments seeking to determine the number of privately-owned expressed in the second part of the hon. member's residential units available for rental and they intend to do resolution to which I now turn. Whilst having housing this through the census which will take place next year as which could be available for rental lying unnecessarily there appears no easy or inexpensive practical alternative empty does not make economic sense - and I cannot think means of obtaining such information in the short term. of anyone who owns property who would want property Now, the information which the department presently holds empty when they could let it out - I believe it to be, more in respect of both public and private housing has been importantly, totally immoral in the present housing climate circulated to hon. members, as requested in the hon. and I give credit to the hon. mover for drawing this to this mover's motion, in the form of the report on the housing hon. Court and the public's attention. (Mr Houghton: policy review 1999, progress report June 2000. Hear, hear.) However, defining what is an empty house is Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T915

not entirely straightforward and unless government were `avoidance of empty homes' strategy because we have got • to resort to somewhat arbitrary legislation, the enactment to look into how this might be done. Is it in fact feasible to of which would be highly problematical, little would be do so? I hope we could do certain things but there may be achieved. For instance, imagine the amount of red tape in severe limitations for the reasons that I have mentioned. separating a limited number of speculators and their houses Therefore, I hope that the hon. mover of the resolution from genuine home-owners who leave their premises and seconder would accept this resolution, which in no empty for some very good reason. It is easy to say that one way is intended to weaken their point of principle which I would like to do this but it is much more difficult to put it fully accept. I am sure everyone in this hon. Court accepts into effect. that we want the very minimum number of empty houses. As far as derelict properties are concerned, local Indeed I cannot think of any argument why houses should authorities can of course deal with such matters under be empty when they need not be, and therefore I hope they existing legislation, although perhaps some of them, as I would accept this amendment as 1) more accurate in what know from the past from my own area, are not as active in the department is doing and 2) in accepting the this as they might be. Furthermore, we should remember department's intention to look into this whole matter very that government financial assistance is available for the seriously indeed. repair and modernisation of older properties and a revised scheme will be brought forward very shortly. The hon. Mr Crowe: Mr President, in seconding the amendment member, I believe, is quite right to bring forward this I would agree totally that it makes no commercial or resolution and highlight these areas for consideration. economic sense to have vacant properties for renting, However, the Department of Local Government and the whether they are in the public sector or the private sector. Environment is definitely already dealing with the matters In regard to Mr Henderson's motion, I am supportive covered in the first part of the resolution and therefore I of and I have no difficulty with the mover's general am moving an amendment to the motion on today's agenda principle to adopt an 'avoidance of empty homes' strategy. in the following terms: When houses or flats do become available on a change in tenancy there are bound to be some delays if houses are not immediately available to be transferred to a new tenant. For the words after 'That' substitute - Any delays would be to allow essential repairs to be carried out. However, it is important to keep the vacant periods as `Tynwald notes that - short as possible so that properties are occupied as quickly as possible. (1) the Department of Local Government and the As mentioned by the minister, the department is in the Environment - process of reviewing the statistics but the best opportunity will take place in the 2001 census to refine the information (a) is determining the number of residential units that is currently available. The amendment as proposed in (i) private and (ii) public ownership; and by the minister puts the responsibility firmly on the department to assess the information from the next census (b) is determining the number of privately owned and will then consider an 'avoidance of empty homes' residential units available for rental; and strategy in conjunction with local authorities and the private sector. I am sure that we would all agree that the sooner (c) is analysing the nature of the accommodation empty properties that are available for renting are occupied, available in the units; and the better for all concerned, both owners in the public and private sectors but especially for the tenants. There is no Now, I move that first part of the amendment because it advantage to either the department, local authorities or is a factual statement of what is happening. It is no good private owners keeping premises empty when they can be requesting someone to do something when they are already rented out. doing it. We are already doing this, as the hon. seconder of Mr President, I will be supporting the amendment. the main motion will agree. And then I move an amendment to the second part to Mr Duggan: Mr President, I am in the same boat as change the wording to: the members for North Douglas, really. Me and my colleague Mr Cretney behind me, we get inundated (2) on the basis of the information will then consider practically every week by complaints from tenants of developing an 'avoidance of empty homes' strategy, Douglas Corporation properties. I have raised the matter in conjunction with local authorities and the private in the past and Mr Gilbey said it would be difficult to really sector, to maximise the use of existing residential investigate the corporation, it would be a big step to take, units, together with any proposals for additional but I think it is about time they were investigated. (Mr statutory provisions required to enable the Houghton: Hear, hear.) But not only the repairs which are department to encourage and supervise such use; not getting carried out. Because a number of years ago - I and report. think Mrs Cannell was a councillor at the time and a Mr Warren and one or two others and they voted to keep the We certainly are more than happy to look into this whole workmen on - the majority of the council opted for paying matter and try and find solutions to improve it but it just off the workmen and going for private contractors which would not be right to say that we should develop an has been a folly, believe me. People cannot get repairs.

Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried T916 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

There are houses lying empty in my constituency and department 'are determining', 'are determining' and 'are other areas, while you have got people paying through the analysing'. The latest one I have just received on my desk • nose in flats. So it is about time there was a policy where says the department 'is determining', 'is determining' and the Local Government and the Environment put maybe a `is analysing'. It is just a small point. They either 'is' or time on, unless there are exceptional circumstances, where they 'are'. a house is re-let fairly quickly. Because, Mr Gilbey, they are not getting let quickly and at the end of the day we in Mrs Hannan: 'Is' is correct. the government, the Local Government and the Environment, are meeting the deficiency. So the whole Mrs Cannell: But one thing certainly is if they are in thing does want looking into. the process of doing this then I would, with respect, suggest that they are moving far too slowly. Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. Mr Duggan: Snails! Mrs Cannell: Mr President, following on from the remarks made by my colleague for South Douglas, Mr The President: I suggest to the hon. member that what Duggan, he is correct in that going back to 1992, 1993, we are dealing with is the amendment moved by the hon. 1994, the local authority in this particular area did at that member and circulated to you this afternoon. time have quite a substantial workforce which ensured the rapid turnover of empty council properties in the shortest Mrs Cannell: To which I am now speaking, Mr possible time. Of course, there was a move during those President. I only intend having one slice of the cake today, days to actually sack a lot of those craftsmen - some of sir. I have spoken on the main motion, I am now speaking them were greatly skilled craftsmen, had been in on the amendment and then I will be quiet. employment for a long, long time - and to privatise that The amendment weakens the overall message, in my • section looking after their houses and the turnover. As a view, in the original motion because what it does say - and consequence to that of course it has been a downward turn it is most important and it is in part (2) - in the original of events where things have steadily gone from bad to motion of course is that the department 'develop'. That to worse. me is showing leadership if they were to accept the original Indeed I believe it is really up to this government, up to motion. The amendment, however, says 'on the basis of this department to look into that situation with some depth that information will then consider developing'. And that and to put together some kind of strategy which may well is where the weakness lies because the department may embrace the fact that all local authorities should have a well consider that they do not want to develop, in which minimum amount of those employed who can oversee the case it is adding more time, more process, more essential and rapid turnover of such properties. It seems a determination, more procrastination in relation to this nonsense to me that we are facing times when we have a particular issue. Because under the amendment of course hardship in terms of housing. We have a great shortage of the department can come back at some point - although it housing. We have difficulty in trying to engage and provide does not say in the amendment when they would come accommodation for very needy teachers in the Island and back but at some point they will 'consider developing'. also for those coming in in the medical profession. We are The only indication of time we have been given by the struggling to accommodate those very essential services hon. minister was some time in 2001 - the hon. seconder, that sometimes those from off-Island can only provide for I beg your pardon, the member of the Council, when he us. And indeed our own local people are suffering because referred to the policy report which is sometime next year. of an inability of availability of property or an inability to And so there we have it. The department 'will then consider actually meet the costs and the prices which are being set developing an "avoidance of empty homes" strategy' and by the market at the moment in terms of purchase powers. • of course they may consider not developing the same. And so we do have a dilemma on our hands. Now, that is a get-out clause, as far as I am concerned, It stands to reason, from my way of thinking, that when for inaction by this particular department and I appreciate faced with a problem like that obviously one needs to that this particular department does have a lot of develop a medium to long-term strategy in the development responsibility and a lot of areas of concern, not only in and the provision of living accommodation for our people. housing but also environmental protection and But at the same time we need to get our own backyard in enforcement. Nevertheless, this is a social issue which order and I believe this is where this motion is coming needs fast adjustment. I would ask hon. members to put from. It is suggesting that in our own backyard not all is rosy and that we should be looking to tidy that situation some weight behind this request in getting our own up and I entirely agree with the sentiments expressed within backyard sorted by supporting the original motion on the the original motion. agenda and firmly reject the weak one that has been put I have some problems with the amendment that has been on members' desks this afternoon which is really asking proposed, although the vast majority of wording from the and begging for more time, for more inactivity, for more original motion is incorporated into the amendment. But lack of action. What we want today is some clear directive there is quite a significant difference. First of all I have a action. problem in that I have two amendments here which have been circulated by the department. One refers to the A Member: Hear, hear. Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T917

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think this debate should be which will maybe look good in manifestos will not do any really in the town council today, the majority of it. good as far as the town hall. The thing that has to concentrate the town hall's mind is the fact that the DLGE Mrs Crowe: Absolutely! should not be the fall guy to pay out (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) for bad administration as far as housing is concerned. Several Members: Hear, hear. Can I just say that it did raise other issues and I am glad that the issue of privately rented accommodation was Mr Karran: I think that some maybe would be better brought up and I am only sad that we have got to wait to off fighting to represent their people in the town council the year 2001. I am glad my colleague the Treasury minister as far as this motion down here today. What I do not want is going to put a point in the census but I do hope that the is a situation where we are using this section of the minister will not wait until then in order to try and free up community for the crisis we have with housing. The empty the houses that are being used for blatant exploitation of housing situation. And I admit, I am not at the coal face as people who need the commodity of a roof over their head. I used to be as a Douglas Corporation joiner but I actually I hope he is looking towards bringing in some sort of stamp think the situation has improved from my day of working duty or extra tax on rental income in the private sector to for the Douglas Corporation. (Interjections) The situation get those houses back into owner-occupiers. is improved. It is not satisfactory. There are only two things The other issue that I wanted to raise is that with this that I think we need to do, two things that we can do, which debate it is talked about the ownership of houses and people are the only bits of sense I have heard. You either take being away for a large amount of time and I hope the away the automatic 'taxpayer pick up the bill' policy that Treasury will take on board - I am sure they will - it might we have had in the past as far as the council houses or you take a few years for them to do it but the issue of domicile take them into the ownership of the government, as the on the Island for Isle of Man tax status may be another hon. member for North Douglas wants. But at the end of issue that could be used. I think in my own constituency I the day I do not believe this chamber should be taking have something like a third - the Majestic, around there - are purely holiday homes. I have been representing that (Interjections) and that everything off the local authorities area for 20 years and I know where there are houses there is the problem we have at the moment. and it is like the Marie Celeste. I know certain houses that We in this Court, we have a major predatory force on if I do not go to canvassing before September, there is no our doorstep in the United Kingdom. We have a good point because I know that they are in their Florida homes. economy on this Island which has had to be nurtured, which has had to have the situation where we have had to be the Mr Carmen: They go there in the winter, Peter. facilitators, to make the environment so that our kids are not economic refugees and have to be forced to go to Mr Karran: Now, the issue is that maybe the Britain. That is a governmental role, in my opinion, that is department might like to look at the possibility of this being important. Housing is a governmental role but we must augmented into a situation where the domicile Isle of Man allow local authorities to get on with the job that they are tax status thing for people could be circumvented so that supposed to do, in my opinion. that could help. These homes, instead of we see all these big quarter of or half a million pound houses that are Mr Houghton: But they are not doing it. basically there as holiday homes, they could be maybe used at different times by different people to get their Isle of Mr Karran: The problem we have as I wrote to the Man tax status. corporation only in the last month or six weeks, is the fact But that is not going to be the answer to the problem that from my day of working for the corporation we seem that we have here today as far as the housing crisis. I think to have 14 layers of managers (A Member: Hear, hear.) it would be a shame to say that the situation is worse now between there and what there was in my day. I have to say as far as the empty houses status because it is not. that that is an issue which I think the Douglas Admittedly, I am not on the coal face but I go into Spring representatives, not the Onchan representatives, should Valley and Pulrose every day of my life, as I say, and I really be taking up with the town council and the local would say that the situation is not any worse. The problem authority representatives in that area, that they should be we have got today is the fact that the people, the working sorting out the fact that they have lost control of their people, have been left behind as far as being able to afford management in the town hall and that is the problem they affordable housing and so we have a crisis on our hands. I have in there. But to try and make out that the situation is would hate this motion to be used as a scapegoat for the worse than it was 10 years ago, I think is wrong, because government not coming up with the goods for a decent what has aggravated the problem we have got today is the housing policy. It is not because of empty council houses, fact that this Court has not come up with the goods as far it is because we have not designated enough land. We have as providing enough land for development and it has not been building council houses. For nearly five years of created more pressure on the local authorities. a previous administration we virtually built no council I do think the only thing that I would like to see come houses in that time and that has had the severe effect on us out of this debate is that I hope the department will look at now. setting down clear guidelines of how long the government should pick up the tab for empty houses. That is the only Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I rise to support the way we can deal with this issue. All these other sentiments amendment brought forward by the Department of Local

Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried T918 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

Government and the Environment. The southern cannot amend an amendment except by going through the authorities, Port Erin and Port St Mary, have an excellent whole wording again and as the first amendment actually • record on refurbishment and reoccupation. Now, this slightly does alter the wording of the original resolution motion may well be brought forward to attack Douglas and introduces this maybe, 'consider', I think it is time we Corporation but I do not want to see all local authorities actually returned to the original, whether we use the tarred with the same brush. I think it is important. If this original wording or in my proposed amendment itself. I motion was purely to attack Douglas Corporation then it am just repeating the wording of the amendment but re- should have said so in the motion. Certainly I have nothing introducing the word 'develop' the policy as distinct from but praise for the local authorities down South. Thank you, `consider developing'. It may seem to be a matter of Mr President. splitting hairs but I think, if we are going to get anywhere at all, we have got to definitely get back to the instruction Dr Mann: Mr President, I think we are all getting mixed of this Court to the department to actually develop, and I up in the wording of the original resolution and the wording beg to move: of the amendment. I think it underlines the frustration of a large number of members who are only transmitting to For the words after 'That' substitute - this Court the frustration of a lot of people outside, particularly young people and people with young families. `Tynwald notes that - Now, there is nothing unusual in this situation developing when we are in boom times. This has happened before (1) the Department of Local Government and the and when boom times come the amount of housing Environment development never appears to meet the requirement of the time and frequently it then goes over, when you start a (a) are determining the number of residential recessionary cycle. units in (i) private and (ii) public ownership; • It is very difficult indeed to get the thing into balance. and At the moment it quite clearly is out of balance and there is no immediate prospect, whatever the energies of the (b) are determining the number of privately Department of Local Government and the Environment, owned residential units available for rental; of actually getting it in balance in the foreseeable future. and So I think to rubbish or to attempt to undermine the mover of this resolution is rather wrong because the anxieties and frustrations are real and when they build up to the extent (c) are analysing the nature of the that they are building up, and will build up in the next 12 accommodation available in the units; and months or so, there is a continuous searching for some swift answer, some answer to at least alleviate the situation (2) on the basis of that information will then develop in that period of time. an 'avoidance of empty homes' strategy, in As I say, this has occurred before. This is not the first conjunction with local authorities and the private time. People start going around looking at all kinds of sector, to maximise the use of existing residential possibilities, buying up any empty house, buying up any units, together with any proposals for additional vacant house and letting it out. These are the kind of things statutory provisions required to enable the that have been in the past suggested. It is a very difficult department to encourage and supervise such use; area and the mover of the amendment has indicated some and report'. of the difficulties. But in moving the amendment, the mover of the amendment actually at one point said they had a Mr Singer: I beg to second, Mr President. policy and at the next point said there was not a policy. • Now, there is either a policy or there is not one. On one Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I have to agree with the hand the department is claiming they already have a policy sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Rushen, Mrs and then say they are still looking to see if one is possible. Crowe, in saying that there are excellent local authorities Now, it is said that this amendment is a possible who turn round empty houses very quickly, using their hijacking of the original resolution and it could well be maintenance money, their 30 per cent back on their rents, interpreted as that and, when one looks at the critical and renovate the properties and have them back in the wording, of course it is quite obvious that instead of an public domain within a few weeks. instruction for this Court to actually develop a policy, Now, I was at a constituency meeting last night with whether or not they have one, the amendment gives the residents of Circular Road and Princes Street, with three option to do nothing. I am not saying that it will be nothing but it could be nothing and the whole object of the original representatives from Douglas Town Council who actually resolution is to at least look to see how we can, in the short admit that because they have not got the workforce and term, alleviate some of the obvious anomalies. I think it is they would have to get contract people in, they cannot turn quite wrong to suggest that that only is in the Douglas the houses round. As I put to them, it is because the Corporation. Things are far from satisfactory outside deficiency is being picked up by central government that Douglas as well. (A Member: Hear, hear.) they are not too bothered. I am going to suggest a further amendment, which I know will be greeted with groans, but unfortunately you Mr Karran: Yes, and now that is the bottom line. Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T919

Mr Braidwood: And another point. The constituents boatload and the people who are going to suffer this • or the residents of those properties have damp, the roofs problem are the people we have got now, the next are leaking, the windows are leaking. There has been no generation of new Manx. They will not all have half a maintenance on those properties whatsoever. I have even million pound houses. They will not all be computer whiz had to get environmental health officers to go into one kids. They will all want it and I think the department under particular house and the recommendations he sent to the circumstances is doing the best it can, given the Douglas Corporation. There was one member of the Public situation. Health and Housing Committee there who had not seen At the weekend I was in South Douglas - and I always this letter from the Department of Local Government and inform the members when I am in their constituency with the Environment and it said at the end that if this had been problems. I went into two little properties. The next-door a private dwelling, he would have been asking Douglas properties were little palaces but the actual fabric of these Corporation to take action under their byelaws. units - and I spoke before to the Council in public about this - were in such a disgrace. They were built in the 1930s, Mr Houghton: And condemn it. so they have had 70 years. We have put new wonderful plastic windows in, PVC windows, a wonderful job - done Mr Braidwood: Something has to be done. Other about 20 years too late, but they are in. But the actual mortar authorities can maintain. We want to turn round the houses on the inside of the windows is falling away. Now, you for the benefit of those people who are living in the private can see it, the members can see it. This particular building sector (Several Members: Hear, hear.) paying extortionate is in East Douglas, in Lower Lord Street, that is one there. rents. As far as I am concerned - and I have looked at the Now, we have got the windows in. The council has done substantive motion, I have looked at the amendment - I well to get them in. The windows will still be there in 70 will be supporting the hon. member for North Douglas, years' time - but the rest of the house will have collapsed Mr Henderson. round it! (Laughter)

Mr Singer: I rose to second the amendment by the hon. Mr Cretney: No windows round the back either. member of the Council, Dr Mann. I think it is a case here, having heard what we have heard today, if the cap fits Mr Delaney: That is exactly right. The member for then wear it. It certainly is, from what we have heard, as South Douglas, Mr Cretney, is right. The windows at the far as Douglas is concerned. Action needs to be taken. back are falling through. Now, every minister since I was I think the wording is important that a policy should be in, and Sir Miles Walker, we increased the amount of developed not that the department should consider money to the local authorities for keeping, to do developing because as has been said, the hon. member for maintenance. We have all done it, each one got increased, Rushen said there is no problem in her area. Certainly in but they still tell you they are not getting enough. I do not Ramsey there is no problem. If you look at the figures, know what is enough now, but I know one thing - and the there are only three houses that are empty and those will hon. member for Onchan is quite right - we have got a be turned round fairly quickly, I hope, but three out of a plethora - we had then, we have now - of bosses but we number of 580. The local authorities have no need to worry have got no amount of tradesmen to carry out the work if they are doing their job properly but the fact is that we and no ability to get contractors, as a side issue, in to do it have to do something, we have to consider a policy to because you cannot buy them for love nor money. So we ensure that in areas where the local people are suffering are in a real Catch 22 situation. Even if you put it up by because of lack of action that something is done. another 20 per cent, the allowance for maintenance on the So I think it is quite simple. I think that Dr Mann's properties - the government, that is - you still would not amendment is the one to be supported, which I am sure is get enough money to get contractors at this moment to do totally in line with the original proposal, and therefore the the work. Department of Local Government will develop this Who are the sufferers in all this? The people, our people, proposal and will take action when necessary. Because it because they have got to be Manx to be in the houses. It is may in the future happen that other local authorities which our people who are suffering and we are supposed to sit are okay at the moment may well for some reason back and say, `Ah, well, it is a problem'. It is a problem deteriorate in the standard of their service and therefore for us all and it is not only the situation where it leaves the this policy will be in place. But certainly, for those local council to get on with it. I wish we could do that. I do not authorities which now are giving a good service, they have want to phone them up twice a day. I am sure none of the nothing to worry about. members want to do that, but you have got to do it. You cannot turn around to somebody in Douglas and say, 'I am Mr Delaney: Mr President, I think everyone is pulling sorry. This is nothing to do with me. This is a council towards the same end. I do not think there is anybody in matter.' The reality is they expect you, as their elected this place, in Tynwald here, that does not know we have representative, particularly the members of the Keys, to got a problem. And if you think in 15 months' time you do something and I am sorry, you might as well use will not have a bigger problem and in five years' time it semaphore flags on Douglas Head to try and get a message will not be bigger, if the economy keeps going after you across. It does not get across because nobody is listening. heard what was said about residents this morning, nothing is going to happen. They are going to come in by the Mr Houghton: That is right.

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Mr Delaney: They are not listening to their tenants and because the more I listen, and as has been said, this is a if you do not believe me, just walk through South Douglas. Douglas debate. It is, and I have to make it quite clear that, • Just walk through and talk to the people. They are trying, in my opinion, when you look at the figures, it is either they complain to the members. The members make the inefficiency or it is maintenance divisions, that actually phone calls, they write the letters and nothing, zero the amount of housing has outgrown their capabilities. happens. They get told it will be all in the space of time. Good people living in the worst conditions and we say Mr Houghton: Just incompetence. how well we are all doing. Some of us are doing well but there is one heck of a load of people out there who are Mr North: Incompetence it may well be, but if it is going nowhere and they are the people that we will be then that needs fixing, but please do not under any stretch judged on. How did we look after them? How went the of the imagination - and I speak here for an often maligned day for them? Not so well, I am afraid. Not because we local authority in this Court - did not want to do it, it is because the machine defeated them, the bureaucracy defeated them. I think the minister Mr Delaney: Nay, lad. would do well with all the information - whether he has got it, he has got a policy or he has not got a policy - Mr North: - and yet, my experience of Braddan Parish spending a few days walking into some of the council Commissioners, they have 162 houses, how many are houses, talking to the people, talking to the officers. Not empty at the moment? Zero. And when I ring up and I the double-speak. Not that. They do not want the double- have somebody urgent, they can tell me approximately speak. Talk to them about the actual works that are going when one is going to become free and when one is going to be done and who is doing it and I think you will get a to become available. They work on the points system. I different picture of what is happening. (A Member: Hear, work very closely with them and they know what they are hear.) talking about. Now, if that is not so in Douglas, it should • Douglas Corporation to me is my home town and I am be and it needs fixing, but please do not hang every local on record as being one of their best representatives, from authority on the same peg. their voice, not my end. But I will tell you something now, it upsets me. A simple example of action. I phoned up today Mr Quine: Mr President, I would just like to say that I on behalf of my own department. Why has Douglas think the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, made one Corporation changed the policy and allowed bins on comment that was very important and that is that the Douglas promenade? A group of soldiers virtually, three priority is to produce more affordable houses quickly. We bins lined up on Douglas promenade right on the main can look at all sorts of refinements, embellishments and drag of Douglas. Have we changed the policy? After two all the rest of it but just bear in mind, before you pass any or three phone calls I managed to get through to somebody more of these down the line, there is the same resource who said he would look at it and he said, 'I did not know and if that resource is not there, something is going to go that.' But do they not come from the same town as me? begging. My concern is that it will be at the expense of Do they not drive around Douglas? This is an example of what I consider to be the one priority that I am going to where we are getting. It is bureaucracy and not action and devote my time to - and have devoted it to - and that is to the same goes for housing. They can see the problems. providing more affordable houses. So by all means this They talk about the problems but nothing is done on it. I Court can pass down all these other functions that they think that it is not a blaming situation, it is a case of getting want. They can have a silver braid around the data, if they something done now while we can do it, otherwise the want, it worries me not one iota. And I am glad I am not public will do it on us. the minister. I am telling you now, as far as I am concerned, Support the amendment of my colleague in the Council my time, my attention is going to be on providing more and let us see together if we cannot pull this action. The affordable houses. • department has got a difficult problem, it is trying to attack As far as this motion is concerned, part (1) of this motion it. Maybe it needs the backing of us in Tynwald to help to presents no difficulty. That data is already on record and push it. But I am certainly not throwing another 10 per indeed a great deal of data other than this is on record and cent or 20 per cent to Douglas Corporation or any of the we have just developed a full database to give us what I authorities. I agree with the hon. member, Mrs Crowe, some consider to be far more meaningful data than what is of the local authorities, you would be proud to be in those identified in this motion. One has to say that so far as we areas, but we are talking about the whole lot, in particular are reliant on the census at this point in time for some of the one that I come from. I cannot say they are as good as this data, not all of it, then that data is going to be dated. yours. Isn't that a shame? I believe it is time to get this However, as with even our economic data, I think you will message down and give hope to the people who are the find there are ways by which we can provide some updating sufferers in this situation, the tenants that we put in the of that by taking indicative measures and we can look houses because they cannot afford to buy their own houses towards the quarterly statistical reports and things like that at the prices now - or in the future, they certainly will not to provide some basis to refine what would otherwise be be able to pay for them. Mr President, I support the outdated data. So part (1) of the motion, that creates no amendment. problem for me at all. If this Court feels that that is a priority for the department and they want us to devote our time to Mr North: Mr President, I think the previous speaker doing that, that is a matter for this Court. and the hon. member for Rushen bring me to my feet really Now, part (2) of the motion. I was listening very Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T921

carefully for the hon. member for North Douglas to reveal to consider what you have to do to address that, some of it • precisely what he was looking for. I am afraid I was is quite frightening and I am not sure whether we are into disappointed in that respect. I know what he is seeking to that. Some members may not wish to recognise that owners achieve at the end of the line and that is the absolute of properties have certain rights. But they do have certain minimum number of houses empty at any one time and I rights and I think we have to start from that position and agree with him on that. I do not think any member of this try to do something to influence the result, recognising Court would see that differently. We want to see as few that. houses, whether they be public or private, empty at any Given the time and the resources, the number of point in time. I am not quite sure what, in practical terms, privately owned homes lying empty, we can identify them he envisages by the term 'an "avoidance of empty homes" - it will be a major effort, it would take considerable time strategy.' Perhaps he would, when he sums up, explain in - but then, as the minister said, you start looking at greater detail what he means because, after all, I am sure definition because definition to a large part will dictate he is aware of what is in place so what I would like to whether the options available to you are practical or know is what is he looking for, over and above what is in otherwise. When we are talking of an empty house, what place? are we referring to - a house that is empty for one month, So far as public housing units are concerned, we have, six months, 12 months? What are we referring to when we as the data shows, roughly one house empty in every say an empty house? Are we going to bracket houses that hundred houses at any point in time. I think that is quite are awaiting sale because an estate has been tied up, they good, myself. It is certainly substantially better than what are trying to wrap up somebody's estate? Is it to be limited it was six months ago or 12 months ago, substantially better. to houses that are in a habitable or an uninhabitable And it is substantially better than what they are able to condition? These are just a few questions that you can achieve in the North-West, although I appreciate we are attach to the one word and that is 'empty'. not comparing like with like. But if you think that this is If we just set those aside, these issues of definition, just a snapshot at a particular date and if you take on board important as they are, aside. In relation to private property, the reasons why one house in a hundred may be empty, if I am to take on board some of the suggestions that are then I do not think that is an unrealistic figure. Yes, we can being made here today, I would suggest to you that you always seek to improve upon it. We are seeking to improve have got three basic approaches. One is that you can apply upon it. In so far as some local authorities have better financial disincentives to leaving property empty. You can figures than others, then there must be - although it may do that. You can seek to do that and I will revert to that in be a false assumption - room for improvement in respect a moment. Or, if I listen to some of the comments made to of those whose figures are not so good. me both inside and outside this Court, perhaps we should But before you can arrive at that conclusion you have be looking towards the requisitioning of properties and got to look at the numbers of property, the ages of property take on board the refurbishment of these properties. Are and you also have to weigh against - and this is very we into that? Of course not. The third line of course is that important because this debate has divided into two different we should have compulsory purchase of properties in one aspects today. If you are looking at figures, if we are bracket or another. Is this Court going to be happy with wanting to reduce figures further, then I suppose the next that approach? Of course not. So when you start to analyse motion on the agenda will be why are we not getting all the practicalities of what you can do in respect of private this housing stock brought up to scratch? Why have we properties, they are really quite limited. not got capital programmes for more houses? It is only Now, certainly, if I can just revert for a moment to the about six months since that was the issue, that we were question of applying financial disincentives to leaving the not getting enough houses into the capital programme and, property empty - or incentives, if you want to be if you are going to do that, they are going to be empty - particularly generous. We took a look at that, along with and you have to look at Douglas. In fairness to Douglas, officers from the Treasury, only a few months ago. It was although it is very easy and perhaps with some justification discussed with the Treasury officers and the conclusion members can point at their failings, I think if we were to reached was that in terms of finding something that was be fair, we can also point at some very significant going to be of value in the short to medium term, and achievements by Douglas Corporation, particularly in the something which would be politically acceptable, that we last year or two. So let us be fair about this. For public did not really have a proposition to put forward to this housing there is an 'avoidance of empty homes' policy, hon. Court. You have to also bear in mind that four fifths that is there. That has produced quite significant of our housing stock is provided through the private sector improvements over the last two years at least. I think that and you cannot afford to create a situation where the private is something that we should recognise and that is not to sector lose faith in government because that investment say that others, perhaps, for some of their failings should that comes from the private sector is vital to our objectives not also be reprimanded, but that has been achieved. in providing the totality of the housing which we need. When we start, then, to look at the question of private The motion does not really create any trauma as far as I sector properties, then I really start to get worried when I am concerned. I do not see it as being of any great value. I hear some of the comments about private sector properties. do not see it as being a high priority. I do not see it as I find it, like others, objectionable that private sector going in any significant way towards producing large properties should be lying empty, of course I do, numbers of additional houses. If Tynwald Court want us particularly in our present situation. But when you come to carry out an exercise and count all these houses et cetera, • Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried T922 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 so be it. Recognise the resource involved in that, but if you there is a large resource there, then the department will want to follow that line, follow it. But bear in mind best obviously make some sort of recommendation. And if they • use of resources. I fear that, at the end of the day, this is do not, this hon. Court can see to it that they do. So I do more to do with local authorities being housing authorities. not think it matters which of these motions are supported. I fear that that is what this is really all about. I do not In fact I have a mind to support them all because I think believe we would have any form of consensus or majority the exercise ought to be done. of support in this hon. Court to change the present position. Just a couple of points. It has been suggested that I do not believe that support is there. Local authorities, perhaps the housing deficiency situation ought to be done badly in need of reform as I believe they are, perform a away with. I would just ask members to think just a little valuable service and many of them function quite bit about that because in Douglas what would happen is competently and I - along with others, I think - would be that the rates would go up a substantial amount and I have sorry to see us take a step back from that. I would like to to say I want no part in that. I believe that the ratepayers in see us go forward and look at some strengthening of the Douglas have got enough burden without (A Member: local authorities to make them more able and capable. But Hear, hear.) adding on to them the substantial burden that that may not directly impact upon this subject because, would come from the deficiency of housing, so I think we after all, what seems to be the basis of criticism today is should steer away from that one completely. directed at the largest of our local authorities, so I am not I was interested in the member for Middle when he sure that that would be directly applicable to what we have suggested Braddan did not have any empty houses, and I here today. notice on the table that that is the case. But I have to say, It is entirely a matter for this hon. Court but I do feel like the hon. member, Mr Delaney, I go around with my that there is only one primary objective and that objective eyes open sometimes. I went through Tromode the other must not be lost sight of. Produce more affordable housing. day and saw a whole row of empty houses (Laughter) (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) And unless we can come up • with second line options which are going to make a Mr North: And whose fault is that? Not Braddan's fault. meaningful contribution to that, on the strength of which we can justify the resource, then let us get on with the plan Sir Miles Walker: - which I rather guess had been of action that has been approved and get that implemented. empty for a substantial length of time as well.

Mr Gilbey: Mr President, speaking to the amendment Mr Delaney: Yes, 14 years. (Interjections) by the hon. member for Council, Dr Mann, I should like to say that I totally agree with my colleague the hon. member Sir Miles Walker: We are just talking about matters of for Ayre's remarks regarding it, when there are two basic fact and I think that is an important one. things. Basically we all want to do something more to And the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, when he tighten up on stopping there being empty public sector was on his feet, suggested that there was a time - a whole housing. On the other hand I am sure we all accept the period of five years, I think - when there were very few points that the hon. member for Ayre and I, in a briefer local authority houses built. I can remember that time. What way, made about the private sector. Really you cannot bring he did not say was that the demand for local authority in draconian measures which might equate us to a houses during that period was sinking and the waiting lists communist state. But bearing in mind these factors, I would were going down without building new local authority suggest that we should accept the hon. member of Council's houses. And that just brings me back to the point that was amendment which is not very far from my amendment but made by the hon. member for Ayre about prioritising is slightly more positive and rather than spend ages arguing because it seemed to us far better at that time, rather than over what we should do, (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) we building new local authority housing to put in a programme • should accept that. of substantial refurbishment of our housing stock which - let us face it, hon. members - at that stage was pretty awful. Sir Miles Walker: Mr President, I agree entirely with I am pleased that that refurbishment programme has the remarks of the hon. member for Ayre when he says continued but I do question its priority at this time of what we need to do is expand the resource, expand the housing shortage. It seems to me what we should be doing number of housing units that are available on this Island again is increasing that resource, building more houses, and there are a number of ways in which we can do that. I and if we have to put the refurbishment programme on the do believe that the hon. member for North Douglas, in back burner for a period of time then I think that that is moving this resolution, sought to do just that, albeit - and probably the real world and I would support it at this stage. I think it is accepted - in a very limited way. I have to say, I am supporting the resolution. I think the exercise is worth carrying out because I think there will be information in there which will be useful and Mr Brown: Mr President, I would echo some of the perhaps surprising to us and, I have to say, I do not mind points made by the hon. member for Ayre, where he says which of these resolutions carry because they all seem to we have to be careful that we do not actually ask the DLGE me to achieve the same end, that is get on with the to undertake an exercise which may well be interesting, exercise,come forward with a report. If that report does may well be helpful, but might well be a distraction at a not embody a recommendation because it is not worth it, time when they should be concentrating their efforts on because the details are so small, well so be it. If in fact providing houses. I think that is a very important point

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that we should not lose sight of. 1990s, what did we do? We built houses. We went out, we • The key to any housing is land. An area that we have bought land, we built houses and we bought houses. The unfortunately, I believe, failed in in recent years is in fact reason we bought houses to resolve the problem is because purchasing enough land for land banking. It was a problem it takes anything from 18 months to 2V2 years to get we had in the 1980s, then we started to resolve it and then planning permission and to build houses. So if you want we slipped back to it again and allowed government not to to resolve the problem quickly, you go out and you find purchase land in the appropriate places to enable them at who is building and you buy houses off the shelf, as we some time in the future to build houses. In fact the biggest call it, and then we start to either resell those on with a land banker for house building in the Isle of Man is a private subsidy to people who require them as first-time buyers company and every time government endeavours to get and/or use them as public sector houses. If you want a land, they tend to be beaten to the post. So that is a key quick answer, that is your only quick answer. We did it issue. before and that is the only way you can do it. When this motion was down, I was expecting - and to The only reason that many of our people are living in some degree the mover did cover a number of issues - a private rented property, paying rents that are high, is clearly more broad debate and it was obvious that it very quickly because of the lack of houses available for them, either got down to frustration between the members of Tynwald first-time buyer or public sector. That is the only reason. who represent the town of Douglas and the Douglas They are not paying £300 or £400 a month for a private Corporation. I think whereas we all have criticisms of the house because they want to, it is because they have no housing authorities - and one of those, by the way, is the choice. And you cannot necessarily blame the person who Department of Local Government and the Environment owns that private dwelling for asking that price, if that is who have a substantial housing stock in my town and what the market will sustain. So you take the pressure off certainly there are concerns there about things that go on the market by providing an adequate number of public which I have raised with the department - clearly the issue sector houses throughout the Island and opportunities for has focused very much on public sector housing. I was those who wish to either have first-time or move on to interested in a number of comments that were made by second-time house purchases and therefore free up houses members and it seemed that they could not understand why to make them available for first-time buyers. So there is they were having this difficulty with their housing authority not one answer, there is a multitude of answers on this. and why the tenants in some of the housing authorities - My concern about the motion and the amendments is and throughout the Island, not just Douglas - in some cases that we are saying to the DLGE: 'Get something done. were having a problem. Well, to me it is quite Oh, and here is another task. Go away and spend some straightforward. It is nothing to do with incompetence, it time counting up how many houses are doing this, that is nothing to do with - well, not nothing to do with, a bit to and the other.' Well, that is fine. As the member for Rushen, do with - inefficiencies, but the whole problem is attitude. Sir Miles said, it will be interesting. I agree with that but The thing I have noticed in the last 10 to 15 years has timing is everything and is this the time to do it? I think been a dramatic change of attitude, both at political level that is a real question that we should keep in our minds. and officer level, about tenants who are in public sector As for public sector housing and the point was made houses. There is an attitude, they do not matter. (Mr that we should have one housing authority, I say that would Delaney: Hear, hear.) The people who are in those positions be a disaster to the Isle of Man, an absolute disaster, where do not care about them and what we have seen is a decline there would be no local input at local level for people in in standards, and people who are living in those houses the different communities of the Island. About the situation becoming extremely frustrated. The one thing I have said of things not being done right, houses lying empty too long, on a number of occasions is people who own property have standards being too low: there is only one answer. The something and people who rent property, in theory, have Isle of Man Government has been very patient, has nothing. Therefore they have nothing to lose, if things start provided 100 per cent support financially for public sector to go wrong, in taking action. It is very important, I believe, housing, but there is only one answer and that is we need that we ensure that we do not allow ourselves to slip into a to amend the Housing Act so that the minister can lay down situation which, I have to say, I believe is developing - regulations which will require a minimum standard to be and I hope to heck we can stop it - where in fact there is a met by housing authorities. Not if they want to do it. Not down on people because they just happen to live in public if they do not care. It will actually be laid down by law sector housing. There is no doubt at all that that attitude and shall say the housing authority shall provide X, Y and comes through at many levels in our society now and it Z. If you do not do that, you are kidding yourselves because was not the attitude certainly 10 to 15 years ago. I believe while you do not do that they do not have to find the money, we will rue the day if it ever takes hold properly, because so there is no financial pressure on them. They can blame it really is not fair. government when it suits, as they do, and they can take When you want to do something, there is a saying that the credit when they want. How many times do you hear a you lay down the law, and that is the point that we need to local authority when they announce the rates, saying this deal with this. This motion is fine, it asks the DLGE to do is to provide for public sector housing, it is to provide for certain things. I have to say, it is not going to take us this, it is to provide for repairs and upgrading. All 100 per anywhere quickly. The reality is if you want to go cent deficiency from government. It does not cost the somewhere quickly, you have just got to build houses. No ratepayers a penny but the impression given when it suits doubt about that. When we had the problem in the early is 'We are doing this,' but when it does not suit, it is left

Hi Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried T924 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 alone. the situation, whether we like it or not. So quite clearly there is a problem. There is a problem The hon. member for Castletown, Mr Brown, said the • with our existing housing stock and concerns that have only way we can do this is to get out and build houses and been raised. There is the issue of providing housing for solve this housing crisis. That is true to an extent. But there those who need it now, and quite honestly there are only is an element there, if you want to do something quickly three things you can do and nothing else matters. One is and positively, that does not take 18 months for planning get out there and build and/or buy houses to put them into permission and another six months to quickly build a few the market, to take the pressure off the market. The second housing units, why not clear up or see if you can be more is to buy land for future and secure it for the future, and effective in clearing up what empty properties there are? the third one is to have a new Housing Act to give the Surely that would be quite easy to do. And if you are going DLGE - that is government, through them - the powers to to buy houses, ready-built units, why not throw some of direct local authorities. Not to do their own thing, not to that money at some of the empty housing and help the be personal about people they are looking after or supposed authorities that are struggling to clear out their own? to be looking after. Not to have their own view on whether And when we turn to the private sector I am not talking they want to do it or not, because they do not believe in about draconian powers and sledge hammers and all the this, that and the other. Where we, as government, say that rest of it. The hon. member for Ayre in my opinion this is our policy for housing in the public sector and they purposely missed the point that I was trying to make in are being given the opportunity to carry it out and if they regards to that (Interjections) - do not do it then they will be penalised in some way - and that has to be a financial penalty which has to then go on Mr Delaney: Fifteen-love. the rates. That is the only way you are going to resolve this problem and the sooner we get a new piece of Mr Henderson: - because I clearly indicated there may legislation to deal with that, the better it will be in the be some very good reasons why houses are empty and • longer term for us in dealing with these issues. they would be exempt from my strategy. So far from I would just say to members, if you pass these motions, draconian, what I was proposing was, as I said in the earlier that is fine, whichever one you go for. But I would say, debate, joint working, local authorities consulting with the and based on what the hon. member who moved it said, at private sector, DoLGE consulting with the private sector. the end of the day what he wants is what we all want, that Encouragement is the final backstop. There may have to is action. We want something done and the only realistic be some sort of legislative process constructed to try and way you do it is get out there and do it. Surveys, you can make the thing work or cause people to come round the spend years doing surveys and do nothing. Just get out table and at least talk, if nothing else. there and do it. Having said that, I think Sir Miles hit the nail on the head. Thank goodness for that. There were some excellent Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. comments there and he had obviously picked up the debate as the way I was trying to steer it and a bit more of an The President: May I call upon the hon. member for overview. There is only one other major issue I want to Douglas North to reply to the debate. touch on, really, and there are some issues that the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Karran, seemed to go on about A Member: Agreed. which, really, I am afraid lost the plot, missed the picture completely. Because at the end of the day I am talking Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. I thought about one element that will help the main situation. I am there was one motion and two amendments. I think that is not pushing this out as the be-all and end-all that is going where we are up to. I have got to try and address the to solve everything, because I am not naive enough to think amendments in the correct order as presented and then my • that it will. It will not, but it will certainly help and if we motion somewhere along the line, but I will try and put it have got 70 empty local authority houses plus all the all together in one shot, if I may. numerous private property that is lying empty and boarded I just want to touch on the last speaker, if I might, up around, that adds up to a substantial block when you because there have been some important principles raised come to add up the housing units in there or flat units or during the debate. Now, when I set out this afternoon after whatever. lunch with my original motion, I thought I had made it Now, that is what I was talking about. There is a notion sufficiently clear that what I was talking about was an put out here this afternoon that this was a council debate. I Islandwide empty homes and property strategy. Douglas take exception to that and I really do despise those Corporation has something to do with it in there, but I was comments and think they are belittling the importance of looking at an overall picture and I certainly did was not, what I am trying to push out here. The hon. member for and my debate did not, focus just on public sector or council Castletown is right, we are looking at perceptions of people houses and Hansard will prove it, if we care to read back as well. It is a shame that that has been put over here and it on the lines, that I was looking at private property, business is a shame on the hon. member for Onchan and the hon. properties with empty space above them that could be used member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe, to be thinking that way, for letting or short-term lets or whatever. I was looking at because I am looking at the big picture here and I am trying a big picture with plenty of elements in and not just a to put a genuine attempt over to help assist a desperate Douglas Council element, although that does form part of situation. I am not protecting any of my colleagues in the Housing Units — Avoidance of Empty Homes — Amended Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T925 town hall, I am trying to address a national issue here, so For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir Miles Walker, let us have that for the record. Mrs Crowe, Messrs Rimington, Brown, Houghton, I thank all the other members for their contributions, Henderson, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Grinnell, especially the ones who were supportive of what I am trying Messrs Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs Singer, to do. I am especially pleased with the contribution from Bell, Corkill, Cannell, Gelling and the Speaker - 23 the hon. minister for the Department of Local Government and the Environment because he has consistently been Against: Mr Karran - 1 supportive of what I have been trying to do and say. He has put his own thoughts and made his own feelings known The Speaker: Mr President, the amendment carries in on the issue. And I am very thankful to the hon. member the House of Keys, 23 votes in favour and 1 vote against. for Council, Dr Mann, who put up a second amendment which I feel is the amendment that this hon. Court should In the Council - support. It gives you the best of both worlds. It recognises what the hon. minister was saying in the first place, that For: Messrs Lowey, Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs Kniveton, DoLGE are addressing some of the issues I was after, but Radcliffe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney also addresses the immediacy of the situation that I am and Crowe - 8 after, because what I do not want is the original amendment which said 'consider developing.' That is a get-out clause Against: None and that superimposes all the work I have done and the motion that I have placed and superimposes the debate The President: The Council being unanimous, the here this afternoon and it may be that to consider amendment therefore carries and I will put the motion as something, as the hon. minister said, they are waiting for amended. Will those in favour of the motion printed at next year's census report. What I want is for anything that item 3, as amended by the amendment in the name of Dr they are able to do now or in the very immediate future, Mann, please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The let us get on with it and do it. ayes have it. Incidentally, I read out quite a technical specification of what my ideas were, including an empty homes officer or somebody charged with those duties to look at it in a bit Petition for the Redress of Grievance of more detail. This is not just about an assessment, although that forms the foundation of it, this is all about doing at Andrew Charles Richard Jessopp the end of it. So the hon. member for Ayre would be best — Motion Withdrawn advised to take that on board. Because what I am after is action, not just assessments and people being tied up in The President: We turn then to item 4 on our order rooms. We want them to get out there and try and free up paper and I call upon the hon. member, Mr Karran. some of the property, talk to the private sector. Let us see what we can do. So with that I will wind up and ask this Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would like to thank the Chief hon. Court to support the amendment that Dr Mann, the Minister for arranging facilitating meetings to try and hon. member for Council, has put forward and I would resolve the issues that were within this redress of grievance remind the Court, too, that the hon. minister, Mr Gilbey, and also for the capital projects manager. I am hoping that has also said he is supportive of the second amendment, we will have another meeting with him in about six weeks' which gives us the best of both worlds. Thank you, Mr time when these issues will be resolved. I do not wish to President. move this motion at the present time as I am hopeful the issue will be resolved amicably through the officers of the Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. Chief Minister. Thank you, Eaghtyrane.

The President: Right, hon. members, now you have the motion as proposed at item 3 on the order paper and to Income Tax Act 1970 — Motion Carried that you have the two amendments. One in the name of the minister, Mr Gilbey and the other in the name of the The President: We turn then, hon. members, to item 5 member for Council, Dr Mann. I propose to take the on the order paper and I call upon the Minister for the amendment in the name of the minister, Mr Gilbey, first. Treasury. The Minister for the Treasury, item 5. Those in favour of the amendment circulated to you in the name of the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr Gilbey, please Mr Corkill: Sorry, Mr President, I was still taking in say aye; against, no. The noes have it. The noes have it. the impact of item number 4. Mr President, I beg to move: I will put the amendment then in the name of the hon. member of the Council, Dr Edgar Mann. Will those in That in accordance with section 119 of the Income favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. Tax Act 1970, it is hereby resolved -

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: (1) That in respect of the lower tax rates for companies In the Keys - under section 1A of that Act -

Petition for the Redress of Grievance of Andrew Charles Richard Jessopp — Motion Withdrawn Income Tax Act 1970 — Motion Carried T926 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

(a) the lower tax rates for companies in printed at 5 on your order paper. Will those in favour please subsection 1(a) of that section shall be in say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. • respect of every pound of taxable income up to and including £125,000, at a rate of 14 per cent; Registration of Business Names (Fees and Duties) Rules 2000 — Approved (b) in subsections (2) and (4) of that section for £100,000 there shall be substituted £125,000. The President: Item 6, the Treasury minister.

(2) That the allowance for disabled persons under Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: subsection (1) of section 35B of that Act shall be £2,070 and the further deduction under subsection That the Registration of Business Names (Fees and (2) of that section shall be £2,070. Duties) Rules 2000 [SD No 4/00] be approved.

(3) That in respect of the additional relief in respect of This order is made by the Financial Supervision children under section 39A of that Act, the deduction Commission after consultation with the Treasury. The order under subsection (2) of that section shall be £5,160. provides the fees to be charged in the office for the registration of companies in respect of the registration of (4) That in respect of the additional relief in respect of business names. This order increases the fees payable by children under section 39B of that Act, the approximately 5 per cent which broadly represents the additional deduction under subsection (3) shall not inflationary increase since the last order in March 1997. in any case exceed £5,160. The order is reviewed every two years to ensure an • adequate fee is charged for the level of service offered. The order should have been amended in 1999 but was (5) That in respect of the additional relief in respect of delayed because of uncertainty over the timing of the children under section 39C of that Act, in the transfer of responsibility for the companies registry from formula in subsection (3) for £5,035 there shall be the General Registry to the Financial Supervision substituted £5,160. Commission. After this increase it is estimated that an additional £2,000 will be collected per annum. (6) That this resolution shall apply in respect of the I beg to move item 6, Mr President. income tax year commencing 6th April 2000, and subsequent years. Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks. In the budget which I presented to this hon. Court in February this year I announced certain changes which were The President: Hon. members, the motion is that to be made to the rate of tax and allowances. Although the printed at 6 on your order paper. Those in favour please proposals were agreed, not all the formalities could be say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. completed because some were dependent upon the Income Tax Bill 1999 receiving Royal Assent. Now that the legislation has been enacted, I am able to formally complete Companies (Fees and Duties) (Amendment) the budget process both with this motion and a little later Order 2000 — Approved with item 30. • This motion is seeking the resolution of Tynwald to The President: Item 7, the Minister for the Treasury. make the following changes: firstly to reduce the lower rate of tax for companies from 15 per cent to 14 per cent; Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: to increase the band of income to which that rate will apply from £100,000 to £125,000; to increase the allowance for That the Companies (Fees and Duties) disabled persons to £2,070, being in line with the amount (Amendment) Order 2000 [SD No 239/00] be approved. already approved for blind persons' relief and then to increase the additional allowance for single parents and This order is made by the Treasury after consultation the maximum amount for cohabiting couples from £5,035 with the FSC. It prescribes the fees to be charged in the to £5,160. office for the registration of companies in respect of their Mr President, as I stated earlier, these proposed changes continuance and discontinuance of insurance companies were all agreed in principle at the February sitting of with effect from 1st October 2000 and increases the fee by Tynwald and I beg to move. 18 per cent. The fee was last increased in April of 1996 and was scheduled to be reviewed in 1999, following the Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. transfer of the companies registry to the FSC. The review was delayed because of the uncertainty, as previously The President: Hon. members, the motion is that mentioned. After this increase it is estimated the additional

Registration of Business Names (Fees and Duties) Rules 2000 — Approved Companies (Fees and Duties) (Amendment) Order 2000 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T927

revenue generated does not actually exceed more than at the test centre before a licence can be issued. From 1st • £100. I beg to move. August 2000 it is proposed to increase the fees by 5 per cent rounded up to the nearest £1 in order to partially reflect Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and the rate of inflation since the last increase which was mainly reserve my remarks. in 1992. The following changes have been made. No fee is to be The President: The motion, hon. members, is that charged for the registration of those invalid carriages which, printed at 7 on the order paper. Will those in favour please being capable of more than eight miles an hour, are say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. regarded as motor vehicles and have to be registered and licensed. The fee is presently 50 pence. Secondly, no fee is to be charged for transfer of a licence to a new owner, Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) that is the registered keeper, if the licence is transferred to Order 2000 — Approved the new owner at the same time as the registration is transferred to the new owner. The overall fee will therefore be, at the new rates, one at £4 instead of two at £4 which The President: Item 8, the Treasury minister. applies if the two transfers are not carried out Mr Corkill: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: simultaneously at present. Thirdly, to encourage vehicle owners to adopt simplified That the Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) administrative procedures in relation to the transfer of a Order 2000 [SD No 6/001 be approved. vehicle registration and licence, these simplified administrative procedures would firstly encourage the This order is also made after consultation with the transfer of a vehicle licence to a new owner at the same Financial Supervision Commission, the new order under time as he transfers the registration and, secondly, recognise the Fees and Duties Act 1989, and it prescribes the fees to the lesser administrative work involved if the licence of a be levied in the office for the registration of companies in vehicle is transferred to its new owner rather than if the relation to the production of copies of documents and acting licence is transferred to the owner's new vehicle. Fourthly, as a Commissioner for Oaths. The average increase is 5 the standard registration fee of £7 - the new rate - instead per cent. The companies registry charges a fee for providing of the higher cherished number fee of £58 is to apply to copies of documents and acting as a Commissioner for veteran vehicles, where they are over 25 years old, if the Oaths. Statutory authority to do this currently rests in two number is a reassignment of a number which previously General Registry Treasury orders that only apply now applied to the vehicle. This will facilitate veteran vehicles because of transitional provisions within the Companies reacquiring the same veteran registration number which (Transfer of Functions) Act 2000. This order allows the had previously applied to the vehicle but which had lapsed Financial Supervision Commission and the companies or become changed at some time in the past. registry to collect the fees in their own right. I beg to move, The current annual income from licensing and sir. registration of vehicles fees is around £332,000. It is estimated that the proposed increase in fees will produce Mr Braidwood: I beg to second, Mr President, and additional income of around £8,000 in the current year, reserve my remarks. that is 1st August 2000 to 31st March 2001, and additional income of around £16,600 in the full year. The motion, hon. members, is that The President: Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my printed at 8 on the order paper. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. name. Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Licensing and Registration of Vehicles (Fees) Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, could the minister, the mover Regulations 2000 — Approved of this motion, explain the fixation that if you have a car over 25 years that you should somehow get preferential The President: Item 9, the Minister for Transport. rates. They more likely pollute more, they are more likely more inefficient, and if I can afford a vintage car then I Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move: can afford to pay the same rate, if not more, than the ordinary rate for people who need a vehicle for their daily That the Licensing and Registration of Vehicles use. I would just ask the hon. minister if he could clarify (Fees) Regulations 2000 [SD No 398/001 be approved. what the logic is as far as that is concerned, because it The purpose of the order is to increase the existing fees does seem to me very stupid. admittedly, in my payable in connection with the licensing and registration constituency I have more likely got quite a few people who of vehicles for use on roads. These are for various have older cars, but it is not through necessity. If he could administrative services by the licensing office and in explain the logic, it is just one of these anomalies that seem respect of tests which some vehicles are required to undergo to be ever increasing, an inconsistency in my opinion.

Companies Registry (Miscellaneous Fees) Order 2000 — Approved Licensing and Registration of Vehicles (Fees) Regulations 2000 — Approved T928 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 The President: I call on the minister to respond. A Member: Hear, hear. (Interjections) • Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I am not able Mr Cannell: We have waited and waited for 50 years to give the full detail of this because this development of for the Peel Road (A Member: Hear, hear.) to be brought having reduced charges for vehicles over 25 years was up to a proper standard. made a number of years ago. But my understanding is that as they are, relatively speaking, a small number of the Mrs Hannan: No, you haven't. vehicles on our roads and as it tends to be people with an interest in those vehicles and in most cases the vehicles Mr Cannell: I beg your pardon? I have. I have waited are not used all the year round as everyday vehicles, then 50 years. It has been the cause of major accidents in the it was a change that was made by the department in Pulrose Bridge area. The standard of that road and many recognition that these were not vehicles used for everyday others contains now inferior road standards to those which use. In many cases they were either used for special rallies are in many poorer countries than those which can get the or for display purposes and therefore the decision was made best part of £5 million, out of what I am old enough to to provide preferential licence duty rates for those vehicles, remember was called the road fund licence. Because the to encourage people to go into that sort of hobby and, as original idea of it was that the roads would be improved far as I know, that is the only basis I can provide the hon. by licensing vehicles, because originally vehicles did not member with an answer, Mr President. I beg to move. have to pay any licensing duty. It was, like, so many other things, converted into a fund-raising racket for general The President: The motion, hon. members, is that purposes and I do not have any quibble with some of the printed at 9 on your order paper. Will those in favour please work that has been carried out on some of the Island's say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. roads, where they have been properly dug down and had foundations replaced and properly `Blaw Knox-ed' as • against the surfacing by just placing it over the top of the Vehicle Duty Order 2000 — Approved existing surfaces - then that is good. But there are some very badly surfaced roads in the Island. I appreciate that much of the problem is caused by the weather. I also The President: Item 10, the Minister for Transport. appreciate the great endeavours that had to be made by the Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move: department when they had to address a major problem on the Snaefell Mountain Road, due to the land slippage there. That the Vehicle Duty Order 2000 [SD No 399/00 But we have, as I remarked a few weeks ago, a road which be approved. is just deteriorating for want of attention and that is the Marine Drive. (A Member: Hear, hear.) A fortune was a The Vehicle Duty Order 2000 fixes the rates of vehicle fortune was spent on redoing it - it is all right you shaking duty which will apply under the Licensing and Registration your head; I am entitled to my opinion as much as you are. of Vehicles Act 1985 in respect of licences taken out for a The Marine Drive had a considerable sum of money period of a year, commencing on or after 1st September expended on it; for what? It is probably a lot better even 2000. It revokes and replaces from 1st September 2000 now than some of the major roads in the Island are for the the Vehicle Duty Order 1998 which came into operation state of the surface, because it was probably the first of on 1st January 1999. The rates of vehicle duty are to be what we always knew as the Blaw Knox to be done, and increased by 5 per cent to the nearest £1 which is to take even now it is in a lot better condition than many of the account of inflation since that last increase. The current others. So what I am calling for is not a criticism of the annual income from vehicle duty is around £4,229,000. It person who is the Colossus of Rhodes; it is a call to spend • is estimated that the proposed increase in duty will produce the money which is being raised, nearly £5 million, on the additional income of around £100,000 in the current year, roads for which the duty is being paid. that is from 1st September 2000 to 31st March 2001 and, It is not an unreasonable request. What we are looking secondly, additional income of around £224,500 in a full for is an immediate main action programme. All right, I year. There has been no restructuring of the current am sure I shall be sent in the post an inch-thick document regulations in our increase in the duties. outlining the priorities of the department and I do not flinch Mr President, I therefore beg to move the motion from the fact that our beloved TT course is a sacred cow standing in my name. and virtually anything that is required for it is performed, and it is a great credit to the department that they have Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. resurfaced the worst section of the lot, which was from Quarry Bends to Sulby Glen crossroads, and have made a Mr Cannell: Mr President, I have been looking forward major difference. There is still a long way to go because to this in a way because I highlighted the incredible sum the Lezayre Road is in a similar condition, but that was at 3A of this order. The amount that vehicle duty is currently the worst and, to be fair to them, they have addressed it. estimated to yield per annum is £4,229,000 - absolutely But there are lots and lots of roads. I have had the amazing. So where does it go? (Interjections) It does not privilege in recent times of three visits to Ireland - two I seem to be going on the roads to me. Many of the roads of wanted to make and one I most certainly did not - but I did the Island are in an atrocious condition. have the opportunity to drive on some absolutely Vehicle Duty Order 2000 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T929

marvellous roads, and that is a country that is stretched for about, which we are talking about when we talk about • revenue. All I am saying here - (Interjections) It is, because wanting to produce another three or four hundred they have had to spend it on many other things. I am just multistorey car parking places in order to resolve the asking if some of the sum of £4,229,000 can actually be parking crisis that we have within Douglas. So I do think ploughed back into restoring something that is fit to drive that if this point could be looked at, I would be very a motor car upon rather than a motocross bike. appreciative.

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I think the hon. member Mr Duggan: Mr President, just to back up Mr Cannell, would be far better looking at having a total management really, when I was a councillor 24 years ago Mr Atherton, review of the Department of Transport and not ending up the then surveyor, was looking at Peel Road and was blaming the men for the state of the roads. It is the concerned then. It was built on like arches and it was in a management that needs to be addressed down in the state of collapse, and all that has been done over the years department, but I think that is not the issue that should be is to have it patched. As for Marine Drive, which Mr here today. Cannell, I am glad, supports, I have raised that with Mr What concerns me about this order is here we have an Callin, who was the chairman at the time, then Mr North, order, the heavier vehicles do more of the damage on our who was minister, and Mr Brown, even the Chief Minister, roads, so why aren't we putting the heavier vehicles' road and nothing ever seems to get done with the Marine Drive, tax up further on our roads instead? That is one issue I even though all this money is coming in. The last I heard would like to see with this order, and maybe the minister from the Chief Minister was Mr Brown was going to look can go back again and think about this and maybe the next at it, but I think it will be shelved until after the next election time we put this up we can look at maybe pushing more because I do not think Mr Brown has any intentions of tax liability as far as road tax onto the heavier vehicles doing anything. (Interjections) • that do the damage on our roads; on many of our roads we do not even know where the culverts are, never mind Mr Brown: We had a working party. anything else, and Peel Road has been mentioned. The other issue I would like to ask is, when we look at Mr Duggan: Let us hear about it then. the like of bikes, which have gone up as far as the duty is concerned, whilst I agree it has only gone up marginally Mr Corkill: Mr President, at the risk of being seen to with it being a small amount, the question has to be asked, be sensitive on issues, the Treasury, of course, is involved really we should be encouraging as many people to use in finances and the budgetary process and the Treasury bikes, especially when we have a situation where it costs has come under scrutiny once or twice during this session us now in the region of £25,000-plus for every car parking (Members: Hear, hear.) so I think it is only right that I space that we make on a multistorey in Douglas and should point out that on page 69 of the Pink Book, which Onchan; I do not see why we should be putting the tax up we all approved here in this hon. Court not very long ago, on motorcycles. I would have liked to have seen in this the highways and traffic vote is £10.7 million, and that is Vehicle Duty Order a system where we would be even a substantial amount of money. And before we get the considering paying the insurance on mopeds and the like accusation that the Island is awash with cash, as was for persons, say, over the age of 21 or under certain criteria mentioned this morning, I can also say to my hon. colleague in order to look at the crisis that we have over congestion. from Onchan that Ireland also has a very big budget surplus. All right, in Question Time maybe it gave the impression that the Water Authority is the only thing to be blamed for Mr Rimington: Mr President, I would just like to share the congestion problems around Douglas, but the issue is one small problem I have which has a bearing on the rates that we have to look more focused at other ways of that are before us today, which is no doubt that members resolving issues. will go on for ages today and I will not get home. I will not This issue is only partly about duty, about bringing have time to pick my strawberries. Now, you may think income into the thing; it should be partly about traffic this is not important but I will also not have time to pick management. Traffic management issues need to be my raspberries. Five years ago strawberries came and then addressed, I think, in the future when we talk about duty. the raspberries started. Now, the raspberries start at the The more heavy vehicles on the road, the more damage on same time. our roads. There should be more cost on the likes of these heavy vehicles to minimise the number of heavy vehicles Mr Quine: I'll give you a raspberry! (Laughter) on the road in the first place. We should be looking at bikes, we should be encouraging more people to use bikes because Mr Rimington: The simple answer to this is the advent not everybody is in the fortunate position of us, and even of global warming, which has changed the seasons and as one of the pleb members of this hon. Court who has at which we can all see is coming about now. least two or three car parking spaces, what we have is a situation out there where people are wanting to use the car The President: It is very interesting, hon. member, but parking facilities. What we have got to do is look at ways I hope you tie it to vehicle duty. of getting the most economic sense, and if we can get people on bikes, in my opinion, then we are not talking Mr Rimington: I certainly am. I think this Court has a about tens of millions of pounds that we will be talking responsibility to weight its vehicle duties to the less

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polluting vehicles, and I have no doubt that is already on the roads - to me, I know that is not true. It would cost encompassed in there, but I would like to see the hon. the £10.7 million pounds that the hon. Treasury minister • minister consider for future years a higher weighting on mentioned - I think it would take that full amount now - to higher capacity vehicles to raise money, and that money repair Peel Road, and would any member of this hon. Court should then be ringfenced to go towards public transport be happy for £10.7 million to be spent on Peel Road or to add to part of our duties which this Court has done little even the promenade here - that would cost a similar amount to accept so far towards the reduction of CO2 and our if that was done - and have nothing done in their areas? contribution against global warming. Thank you. The answer, of course, is no, and you can only spend what you are given. Now, if the hon. Treasury minister was to Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I would like to congratulate be in one of his kinder moods and not only pay for the the member for Rushen on his maiden speech on this - I water infrastructure to be done but also to spend money think it is his maiden speech, anyway. (A Member: Hear, on roads, that is fine. hear.) (Interjections) I would like to congratulate him on If we come now to the point about mopeds et cetera, the content of his remarks because I think they are very there is no charge for mopeds. People are being encouraged apt in what we are discussing before us today. However, to use mopeds. There is a nil charge if the cylinder capacity when we talk about Peel Road and we are talking about does not exceed 50 cubic centimetres. Marine Drive and heavy vehicles and the member for South It was mentioned also by a member that the heavier Douglas went on about Peel Road - vehicles should pay more costs. Well, the heaviest vehicles, of course, are the goods vehicles, and if you look at the Mr Duggan: Quite right too! rates for the fees for goods vehicles you can see that the heaviest goods vehicles are paying £1,213. Three or four Mrs Hannan: - if Douglas Corporation had looked and years ago they were paying about - I do not know - £150- upgraded Peel Road today, Peel Road would not be at the £200, and the department at that time took the view that • forefront of what we are talking about today. It was not the people who did the most damage would pay, and if done then and that is why it is being mentioned today. It you go back to the ordinary what you call passenger was built with 40 years' life to it and it has gone past its vehicles, those above 2,500 cubic centimetres are paying sell-by date. 50 per cent more than those of 1,800 cubic centimetres, so However, Marine Drive has problems. Marine Drive is there is no argument that the people with the heavier falling away - vehicles doing more damage to the road are paying more money. The President: Keep to the order paper. You also have to remember that a lot of the older vehicles have larger size engines, but these can be old Mrs Hannan: Yes, I realise that, Eaghtyrane, but when vehicles and I personally know of poorer but larger families we are talking about the funding that comes from vehicle who have to use these larger vehicles in order to be able to duties we are talking about nearly £11 million being spent take the family out. Are we saying that these poorer people on these roads. We have 688 miles of road and the use this should be absolutely doubling the cost? Of course we are money is being put to is not just to Douglas roads, so the not. money that is raised through the vehicle duties is used but I think that as it is now it is pretty fair, and I think this there is much more being put in by the taxpayer than is whole criticism started by the hon. member for Onchan being put in by vehicle duty, and therefore there is a lot of comes . . . It is a bit steep, isn't it, from the man who was road to be supported in vehicle duty and by the taxpayer. in charge of the bus service and was supposed to be That is being done, and I take exception to the member for bringing in an integrated transport system and everything Onchan attacking my division in the Department of he touched in that department went to dust! • Transport. Mr Cannell: Mr President, must we have these personal Members: Ooh! references?

Mr Singer: Mr President, far from me wishing to defend The President: I call on the hon. minister to reply to the department, it got me rather annoyed to listen to the the debate. hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell, talking literally through his hat. He literally knows nothing about what Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I am glad that goes on but he stood up - I do not know - to make whatever something has excited members today at this sitting, point he felt was important but is totally out of context because I think it is certainly going to be a long sitting! with what actually takes place. I remember, when I was in It is interesting that we all seem to regularly now and the department one of the first questions I asked was how then on these issues have very very mixed views. On one much would it cost if we were to do the pavements and the hand we say we should be charging more, and if you charge roads et cetera and make them up to scratch, and I think more you then get criticised because you are charging the figure at that time was £35 million. Now, that is for people who cannot afford it, and on the other side of it we many reasons a figure that is there because work was not should make everybody go on the buses, but on the other done in the past, and the last speaker has referred to Douglas side we want people to have the freedom to have a car and Corporation. The accusation that the money is not spent so it goes round in a circle, and I suppose the answer is

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that all you can do is make a balanced judgement, hope during this financial year 2000-01, £11 million on our • that the court will accept that as being a fair and reasonable highways. So that £7 million more is provided as additional increase and then endeavour to get on with it. deficiency from the government coffers from other taxes Now, the hon. member for Onchan, Mr Cannell, raised to invest in the roads. a number of issues. Some are quite important in terms that Now, he made the point that the roads are in a terrible they are genuine concerns he has. Marine Drive - well, state. Well, I would refute that. There are bad roads in the again he raised that issue, Mr Duggan did, and Mr Duggan Isle of Man; there are bad roads everywhere. The hon. was quite critical of the point that we are doing nothing, member talked about Northern Ireland. Well, money goes but again, as the hon. member knows, he has spent 10 years into Northern Ireland totally out of proportion to what a asking that question and the answer has always been - (Mr community of that size would have and we know the Duggan interjecting) The hon. member for 10 years has reasons why that is, but if you go to the UK, you will see asked the question and for 10 years his answer was roads and pavements in far worse condition than those in `Nothing is being done with Marine Drive, we have no the Isle of Man. That is not an excuse; that is the reality of intention of opening Marine Drive, we have no intention what happens. Now, we know there are many areas of using Marine Drive.' throughout the Island where we would like to improve the pavements, the roads, the lanes, the public rights of way. Mr Duggan: I hope we have. All these things we are trying to do across the department, but you also then have to say, 'How are we going to do it?' Mr Brown: If you would wait for the punchline, Mr There is a physical barrier in the way. Physically, we as a Duggan, you might find the answer that you might like. department have so many staff. Within the Island there is The point that I raised, Mr President, was that when I went a very limited industry out there that can actually add to to the Department of Transport I raised the issue that just that to do roadworks for us and therefore the amount of doing nothing is not an option. Doing nothing is never an work we can physically cope with in any year, taking into option if you are realistic about maintaining the account the workforce, the minerals that are available and infrastructure, because at the end of the day, if we do all the things that go into it, is about £11 million to £11i/2 absolutely nothing with what is left of Marine Drive it million, £12 million, in that sort of region. will deteriorate and you will have to do something with But there is one important factor that we are also very Marine Drive, and what my department is endeavouring conscious of and which is paramount in our minds, and to do is to determine a long-term policy for the future of that is public tolerance of all the roadworks. There is a the Marine Drive - whether to open it, whether to make a concern by people throughout the Island that there is so clear judgement not to open it and to use it in another way much going on in roadworks that people are getting and to identify what the cost implications are in opening frustrated with it. Now, we are trying to balance that up it, where it would be in a priority schedule as against roads with the need to improve our road infrastructure as quickly in everybody's constituencies where people want other as possible and to try and accommodate the movement of things doing, or whether you actually accept that you are the public to their work or for their pleasure to enjoy driving not going to make a major investment and you are going around. to maintain it to a standard for a different purpose, because Now, Peel Road is mentioned. Peel Road is a major what is the point of retaining a 7.3 metre-wide road if there artery into Douglas. We are very conscious it requires are only people who walk up there and dogs go up there, doing. The Isle of Man Government has only owned Peel because you do not need 7.3 metres; you can have it a Road since about 1983 - that is all, not before, but since metre wide and it would do. 1983. In our programme of works - so members can So those things are being considered by the department. understand the situation we have - we know we need to We are trying to find a way forward. Whether we will be reconstruct Peel Road - very expensive because of the way successful or not I do not know. The one thing I can assure the road is constructed. We also have to introduce a you is, it is unlikely to be a top priority in terms of investing programme to reconstruct Douglas promenade, because the money at this time over and above all the other roads that is all breaking up as well but we also are in the process that we have, but what I would hope to do is to identify of renewing the Old Castletown Road and laying the IRIS what needs doing with it, what I believe needs doing with pipe. it, and then progressing finances to ensure we can at the Now, what we cannot do is have all those three main end of the day get to where we want to go. It may well be routes in Douglas all dug up at the same time, because that it opens. Personally, I would love to see it open. (Mr there is no other way round Douglas and we will bring Duggan: Hear, hear.) That is my personal view and, as everything to a total standstill, (Interjections) so what we minister, if I can achieve that I will be very happy, but have to do - and I am trying to explain to members so they then I have to look at the implications of progressing that understand we are not ignorant of the fact that these works as a personal objective. What I can say is we are looking need doing - what we are endeavouring to do is programme at it. them in a sensible way to meet the requirements that we Now, Mr Cannell - and I know this has been responded need, to ensure that we can bring them up to a standard to to some degree by members - raised the issue of 'Where and, yes, it will be a number of years before Peel Road does the £4 million go?' It has been answered, but again will be tackled and it will be a number of years after that just to say we receive an income with this increase of before the Douglas promenade can be tackled, and in around £4 million and we expend, and budget to expend Douglas alone, as the hon. member for Ramsey and the

Vehicle Duty Order 2000 — Approved T932 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 hon. member for Peel raised - both of them tried to clarify the Isle of Man. Putting the cost up does not necessarily some of this as well and I thank them for that - we are stop it, because people, if they want the vehicle or need it • talking of massive investment. Now, if we are going to do for business, will actually pay that cost and pass it on to that, because of our resource implications, there will be a the customer. It makes it more expensive on the Island but knock-on effect then to other parts of the Island and then they will actually do that. Now, if you are going to go that there will be screams from other areas in the Island, 'Why far, if you were to ban them, you would have an implication aren't you doing our roads?' and so on. So I hope that to us and again, as I say, we have endeavoured to get what helps understand that we are not oblivious to the problems; we think is a reasonable balance. It may not be perfect. we are endeavouring to get a programme running, we are Again, as was mentioned, there have been substantial taking on board public tolerance, which we think is very increases in recent years to actually bring up the cost of important, to ensure the public do not get to the stage where the licence duties that apply to some of the very large they just say 'Enough is enough, we don't want any more,' vehicles on the Island. because we have to work together with them to ensure we I think we have endeavoured and I hope we have can keep the traffic moving. achieved a reasonable balance of an increase to people As for the management, which Mr Karran raised, about who have vehicles, a very large number of them who enjoy it needing to be addressed within the department, all I can the vehicle for many different reasons and a very large say is that we are aware of some of the deficiencies within number who require those vehicles to get to and from work, our own departmental management structure. Every and maybe in the future, as we develop our public transport department has the same problem, even statutory system, the number of vehicle movements may reduce in authorities have problems - terms of people saying 'Well, I'll use public transport because it is now a very attractive option,' but that is Mr Karran: Never! hopefully something that will develop in the future. Mr President, I beg to move the motion. • Mr Brown: - and I would make the point that one of the difficulties that we have at certain levels of management The President: Hon. members, the motion is that staff is the level of staff. The Department of Transport has printed at item 10 on your order paper. Will those in favour reduced its overall staffing in the last 10 years and has not please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes caught up since then. There have been major changes in have it. restructuring the department to enable it to carry out all its Hon. members, I think it is an appropriate time at which functions so, yes, we know there are problems in to adjourn and the Court will recommence at item 11 on endeavouring to do that, but with the resources we have the order paper at 15 minutes past five. Thank you. and supplementing when we believe it is right to do so, we are endeavouring to provide a proper programme, to The Court adjourned at 4.55 p.m. implement that programme and with the support of Treasury, the Council of Ministers and Tynwald Court through the financing of our programme we will keep moving forward. St Ninian's High School — The hon. member raised about motorcycles and the cost, Creation of Car Park and Playground Areas and again that was answered by the hon. member for — Expenditure Approved Ramsey, but I would make the point that as far as motorcycles are concerned, the highest cost of the licence The President: Hon. members, we resume our is 70 pence a week. Now, I cannot believe that by taking deliberations at item 11 on the order paper and I call upon out that 70 pence a week suddenly lots of people are going the Minister for Education. to go out and buy large motorbikes, but for people who want to buy smaller vehicles, smaller motorcycles, if they Mr Rodan: Mr President, I beg to move: are under 50cc there is no duty charge at all, and between that and the buses we should be encouraging more and That - more people to use the bus to car-share, for which we have had legislation for many, many years, but still lots of people (a) Tynwald approves of the Department of do not car-share; some do but an awful lot still do not, and that is a continuing problem. Education incurring expenditure not Mr Rimington mentioned the point about the vehicle exceeding £244,000 on the creation of car duty and charging more for heavier vehicles. That is a park and playground areas for St Ninian's discussion we have had in the department. We have only High School as a consequence of the post- recently restructured the vehicle duty for vehicles to get it 16 block capital scheme. down to a reasonable number of what we believe is fair, but I think the question based on the points made by the (b) Tynwald authorises the Treasury to expend hon. member for Rushen, Mr Rimington - and again, no during the year ending 31st March 2001, a criticism, he has a point of view which I suspect many sum not exceeding £244,000fn9m the capital people would like to see in the ideal world is whether the transactions account in respect of the only way to resolve it is by banning all large vehicles on additional expenditure.

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I rather hesitate to rise to propose a resolution with the area or to develop a sixth-form college for all Island • words 'car parking' in it for fear that the Department of students, there was always going to be pressure upon the Education may be triggered into a debate about car parking two Douglas schools because they are both land-locked. Islandwide. Nonetheless those hon. members familiar with If you therefore wish to develop either of those schools, St Ninian's High School will be aware that there is now inevitably you are going to start having to move onto the practically no external hard play space at this school. Over available sports fields. This is in no way similar to the the years construction of extensions such as classrooms, United Kingdom where school fields have been sold off sports hall, currently the post-16 block, which is now for housing or for alternative means of making money. It nearing completion, have all gradually eaten into is still for school use. It is a requirement that there have playground areas as has the need for growing car parking got to be alternative provisions for outdoor exercise, space requirements. Car parking at the school has always recreation, and for many years at St Ninian's there has been extremely limited with only 42 spaces for a staff of been a problem with regards to where the young people 106, a situation not helped when teachers are transferring go during breaktimes and lunch-times. For many months between Park Road during the school day and having to of the year the field was inappropriate, therefore there was find scarce spaces. Members will appreciate I am sure that a small yard area which has now been developed, as the extremely congested corridors, especially at breaks and paper outlines, for the sixth-form facilities, which means also at lunch-times, can lead to the behaviour problems of the only available space in which to make a facility for a sort typical where students are forced into close proximity hard surface sports activities - but also car parking - was with each other. The word 'horseplay' comes to mind. onto the top pitch. The post-16 unit construction does provide an Regrettably the two Douglas schools now are extremely poorly served in comparison to the out of Douglas schools opportunity to link in an associated scheme of providing with regards to sports facilities. (A Member: Hear, hear.) extra car parking, in fact an extra 55 spaces for staff and I commend the department for their foresight in providing • visitors - and this means, of course, 55 vehicles off the at the Peel, Ramsey and Castletown schools the all-weather roads in the surrounding area - as well as hard play area surfaces. That is a major boost to the sporting facilities for which will be used not only during break periods but during the young people both in school and young people and lesson time, having been marked out for tennis courts, adults outside of school hours. However, the NSC is not a netball courts and a five, six or seven-a-side football pitch realistic alternative for the Douglas schools for games and hockey pitch. This can all be accommodated on the sessions. It can be utilised outside of school hours and it top strip of existing playing field. I would ask the Court, has for many years been only the Douglas schools that Mr President, to support the department in providing these could benefit from that facility. Therefore the department much-needed facilities for which the school is eagerly quite rightly - or the Department of Tourism and Leisure - waiting and I beg to move. developed the NSC in its current position, that did benefit the Douglas schools. However, latterly we are now seeing Mr Downie: I rise to second, Mr President, and in doing both Douglas schools having their pitches eroded because so I would just like to congratulate the department on taking of the need for extra learning facilities or for car parking this bold step. There has for a number of years been a very spaces. That, the minister identified at the beginning, to major environmental problem in the area caused through go for car parking spaces is regrettable but is the world in parking and I am sure that the utilisation of the hard surface which we live and is a necessity. (A Member: Hear, hear.) multi-use playground area and the tennis courts and things As a teacher in that school for nearly 10 years, the will be very well received and used. movements between the split-site facilities at St Ninian's I would just like to make a comment to the minister in and Park Road were bordering on untenable. The amount that now, having declared the proposed site for the further of time teachers would take to try and find parking spaces secondary school for the Douglas/Onchan area, if he would adversely affected the education in those two schools. It again closely monitor the activities at Ballakermeen has been rectified at Park Road, it is now about to be School. There has been some parking provision made there rectified at St Ninian's. However, what we are talking about recently, but there are well over a thousand pupils attending is the almost total loss of any cricketing facilities taking that school and because of the high numbers there is a place at St Ninian's for evermore, because the size of the significant impact on the surrounding environment. area left at St Ninian's will no longer allow a cricket pitch I am pleased with the proposals for St Ninian's - not to be used. Fair to say that the cricket pitch there for many before time - but in saying that, the minister has fully taken years has not been wonderful and therefore has limited on board the problems that people have to live with on a use but it does mean that once this area is sterilised for the daily basis around the school and, as far as I am concerned, proposed use, there will have to be alternative provision more power to his elbow. which inevitably will move towards the member this morning talking about (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) Johnny Mr Shimmin: Mr President, I have mixed feelings Watterson's Lane, which is far from ideal because it is not about the motion before us this afternoon. As most hon. within easy walking distance or Noble's Park, which again members will be aware, my previous life was as a PE cuts into limited lesson time. Both are facilities that are teacher and for a number of years I was a PE teacher in available and we must make the best of those activities this school. What we are talking about today was always that can be done in those areas. inevitable. Until such time as the department either was I have already mentioned to the minister that I would able to advance a new secondary school for the eastern like him to consider the better utilisation of the sports fields

• .St Ninian's High School — Creation of Car Park and Playground Areas — Expenditure Approved T934 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 down at the St Mary's School and the lower small pitch Dr Mann: Mr President, I think there is a general there which is utilised on occasions by St Ninian's. But it support in the Court for this resolution. I would like to • does mean that with the sporting facilities within Douglas emphasise that the amount of actual play area that is going which have been enhanced greatly in recent years, sporting to be removed will be very small in relation to the overall children are going to opt in their large numbers for any size of the pitch. I know it materially affects how you can new facility in the future within the Onchan area or, as has use the residual part of the pitch, but we are not going to happened in the past, sporting children try and go to those cover the entire or even any large area of the present green areas where there are greater sports facilities. field part. If you look at the building that is the post-16 I would be interested to see the level of consultation unit, the imprint of that building is almost totally within from the minister with the school involved. I will support the existing imprint of the school and therefore that post- it. I understand the reason for it, but it saddens me that we 16 unit is not itself encroaching on play area. And it was are in a position whereby we have to go down this road. I the staff of the school itself who asked for this provision. could not have done it any better, I am not criticising the Firstly, because the existing hard play area was extremely department, I just do think people ought to realise that, small and, secondly, the area of the green grass close to yes, there are benefits with the hard surface sports facility that was frequently mud and it is only by doing this that but what we are seeing is the demise of on-site sporting you will get a satisfactory hard play area in addition to activities for considerable numbers of children, games such your green play area. I think it is an extremely clever way as the cricket and the small game sports which will now of using the site to its maximum capability and I would have to be moved some considerable distance. This cuts have no hesitation in saying that the extra expenditure is into the time of transporting children safely across what, well and truly justified. inevitably, are very busy roads and therefore the safety aspect is one which will always cause concern. I will Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, this would seem to be, I support the motion, I do understand it. It is a sign of the suppose, enforced upon the department because of lack of • times, I suppose. parking in this area. My understanding is - and I do not know whether it still happens or not - that we have talked Mr Cannell: Just a very small point you will be pleased about the land across the road which belongs to St Ninian's to hear, Mr President. I wonder if I could persuade the Church, the member for Onchan has mentioned that, and hon. minister, in obtaining what looks like to be it is my understanding - and, as I say, it may not be the overwhelming support of the hon. Court for this motion, case now - the church parks in St Ninian's in the actual whether he could consider a small trade-off of the car park school frontage. So it seems strange that that was being which he has already had at the front of the school. Because used for parking and yet with the land, they are not able to for the price of a couple of yards, the traffic in that facility enter into any sort of agreement. I note that it is now for leading up to the traffic lights from Ballaquayle Road could development. But most people want to get a development be two abreast. There is not quite room for two cars now, price when they are parting with land, not just because it for either those turning left down Bray Hill or those is an area round a hall or to demolish a hall, and I suppose intending to go across the lights into Ballanard Road. With not least the church wants to get as much as it possibly a little trim of that, it could be done. can. The member who has just resumed his seat said this is a Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, I would like to know a couple very good use of this land, and I accept that it is. But when of points on this. Firstly, can the Minister of Education tell you have got a school which has got the population that us the breakdown of the costs between car parking in this that school has got and you have not got the play area, amount and actual play areas in this amount? Can he also both hard and soft, for that number it is a bit disquieting. tell us why we have had to go back so quickly after the Because - as members have said about looking for other • development for this extra facility and was there a reason areas and how to solve the problem of parking in an area - why this was not put in the original development and what while we provide parking, more people will have more the reason was? And it said in the briefing document that cars. More pupils will use their cars to come to school and you failed to be able to get an arrangement with St Ninian's so it goes on. Church. I just wondered why that could not happen. Concern has been expressed for St Ninian's and how St Because it is sad - as a person who hated sport at school, Ninian's is developing but very little has been said about one appreciates the importance of sport as you get older, Park Road. Park Road has been what you might call 'land- for young people - I do think that it is a shame to see more locked' for as long as I can remember and we used to have of the valuable land on the school site being handed over to walk to Tromode. It might have taken us a long time, to car parking facilities. I do think it is a shame that the maybe they were glad to see the back of us, but we all had Department of Education could not get some heads banged to walk to Tromode to take part in sports and otherwise it together, through the Bishop who is a member of this hon. was sports in the hall. We did have to walk down there and Court, in order to be able to get the car parking facilities I suppose today we would be looking at coaches ferrying over in St Ninian's and I just wondered why they could pupils. But Noble's Park is nearby. I do not know whether not do that (Interjections) because that is a shame, in my it is fit to be used by school pupils or not. There is always opinion. The area in the curtilage of the present school concern when football is played there, the state of the park should not really be being handed over to cars in my itself. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) I am concerned that opinion. this would seem to be the easy way out and I think we

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have got to be quite a bit more visionary in looking to try in particular - will welcome the creation of extra facilities • to protect some of the schools that we have. on site at St Ninian's. Yes, we have got to provide car parking, there are no I will certainly take on board the comments of the hon. two ways about it. You cannot have roads outside cluttered member for Onchan, Mr Cannell, and the possibility of up with cars either picking up or even when there is releasing what would amount to a two-yard strip of something going on. Even in the evening when there is a property to facilitate better traffic lane movements and we class or a meeting or something like that. Parking must be would certainly as a department wish to co-operate fully provided, it must be part of a plan, but there are other areas. with any scheme that the Department of Transport may The land at the church, there could be an entrance into the wish to put to us. To the hon. member for Onchan, Mr land at the back of St Andrew's Church - I think it is - so Kansan, requesting a breakdown of car parking, the cost some parking could be used there and that could be off St within the overall scheme, I can advise him that to my Ninian's Road. There are ways that I think we need to look knowledge the car parking element is somewhat under at, trying to solve the problems that we have round about £90,000 to £100,000 of the total, which I am sure he will access to the school. In my own area I have the same agree represents for the creation of 55 extra spaces quite problem with parking and you might say that, yes, we have good value for money in the cost of these particular car facilities but there is also the pressure on the area round parking spaces. the school with parking, dropping off, picking up. And it Both he and the hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, is an area which I believe the department should be referred to the situation at St Ninian's Church across the addressing, along with other departments of government, road. While undoubtedly the school and the department along with maybe the local authority buying up land and maintain a very good relationship with St Ninian's over providing joint car parking facilities. There are all these the use of the church in particular, for art exhibitions and things over which I feel we are not being visionary enough things of this sort, undoubtedly the church does have its and I think we should try to be visionary within these own particular priorities for its property. The fact is that matters. negotiations were held with them by the department, whereby the car parking would be created on site at the The President: I call upon the minister to reply. Department of Education's expense for shared use of school staff and churchgoers. But that has failed. That is Mr Rodan: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to not going to be and the church has its own plans for utilising take the opportunity of thanking hon. members for their the potential of their property. Similarly, if the members interest in this subject and a considerable number have would care to refer to the explanatory memorandum which risen to comment upon it. I would like to begin by thanking both mentions that and the situation at St Andrew's Church. the hon. minister, Mr Downie, who of course as member Just to quote from the memorandum: 'The arrangements for the area has taken a close interest. I would thank him made with St Andrew's Church to rent 18 car park spaces for seconding and for his supportive comments and of will have to be terminated because of accidents occurring course we will undertake to monitor, as he suggests, because of the dangers of access and egress from parking at Ballakermeen because we keep under constant Glencrutchery Road in an area very close to traffic lights.' review the situations. Were we not to do so, we would So, far from not being visionary, as the hon. member have not been in a position to capitalise on this particular for Peel has suggested, the Department of Education at opportunity at St Ninian's to do something about an historic least has had the vision to capitalise on an opportunity situation of unsatisfactory car parking. created by the construction of the post-16 unit. It has had The hon. member for Douglas West, Mr Shimmin, the vision to redress some of the historical problems (Mr reiterated at some length the historic problems with this Downie: Hear, hear.) over the years of car parking, traffic school in terms of encroachment onto hard play area, the congestion in the area, the loss of sporting facilities and gradual erosion of car parking and the necessary trade- playground space and we have actually come to Tynwald offs that have taken place over the years between facilities to seek the support of members, which I am sure will be for children's play and actual school buildings. Now, I forthcoming. Actually I am surprised a member did not would wish to emphasise, as has my colleague Dr Mann, ask, 'Well, why was this not planned for earlier?' That is a that the loss of green area that we are talking about amounts good question. It was not in the original scheme but the to no more than a muddy strip of green playing field. The department did see an opportunity to do something now, situation has given rise to criticism over the years, not least with the Court's concurrence, actually to take advantage of children traipsing mud into school. The scheme that we of the opportunity to come forward with a scheme, that have devised itself actually requires the removal of very little loss of playing field space, but in return - I would scheme being more necessary now because of the St wish to remind the Court - we are having, when we talk in Ninian's and the St Andrew's parking situation. terms of sporting facilities for Douglas schools, a very So, Mr President, I thank members, I do thank them for useful extra three tennis courts, three netball courts, one their interest and for their comments and beg to move and five, six or seven-a-side football pitch and one hockey pitch look forward to their support. created on this new hard play area. Of course I take on board what is being said about the dearth of sporting The President: The motion, hon. members, is that facilities in Douglas, a historic situation, but I know that printed at 11 on your order paper. Those in favour please members - and the member for Douglas West, Mr Shimmin say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

St Ninian's High School — Creation of Car Park and Playground Areas — Expenditure Approved T936 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000

Digital Trunked Radio System — The digital trunked or shared technology being used Expenditure Approved for the replacement system has other benefits for the Isle • of Man in that only one system has to be introduced for all The President: Item 12. I call on the Minister for Home the users rather than individual systems as at present. Other Affairs to move. government users will benefit from having the same facilities as the emergency services, an example of this Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President, I beg to move: being the ability to provide comprehensive radio communications for events such as the TT and Manx Grand Prix races. That Tynwald approves the expenditure of a sum Moving on to the subject of the motion, the move to a not exceeding £835,000 on the site development works higher frequency band, together with the change from necessary for the implementation of a digital trunked radio analogue to digital technology means that there is a need system for the emergency services and other departments for an increased number of sites required to meet the level of government. of coverage needed by the emergency services. A total of 21 sites are required to meet these requirements in all parts Reliable, efficient and secure communications are vital of the Island. To avoid a proliferation of new sites and to the emergency services. The Isle of Man Government masts, wherever possible existing sites and those of other has made a considerable investment ensuring that these operators have been used. Details of the sites to be used requirements have been and continue to be met. Hon. have been provided in the briefing papers to members. members will be aware from the paper which has already The total cost of work required to either develop or in been circulated to them of the need to replace the existing some cases redevelop the sites is £835,000 of which systems, which have served the Island very well since being £350,000 would be spent in this financial year and the implemented in 1988. I would also at this stage like to remainder in 2001-2002. The cost can be broadly split into • thank those members who took the time to come along to four areas: (a) the cost of works at sites owned by Crown our presentation on Friday and I hope they understood Castle International, that is the operators of the BBC perhaps a little bit more clearly what we are intending to transmission sites; (b) the cost of works by the chosen do. preferred system supplier; (c) the cost of minor civil works; The need for change has been brought about by the and (d) other costs including professional fees. international co-ordination of frequencies over which the We should continue to support the emergency services Isle of Man has no direct control - that is, we have very in the provision of high quality radio communications. Mr little say in this particular change, we have no choice but President, the proposed new system will meet the radio to follow the changes which are taking place - the need to communications requirements of the emergency services provide increased functionality, especially in terms of and other departments of government for the next 15 years security, and the fact that the present system is approaching and I beg to move. the end of its operational and maintainable life. Officers of the Communications Commission were first made aware Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir. of the need for change in emergency service communications in early 1993 and have, in liaison with The President: The motion, hon. members, is that the emergency services, continued to monitor printed at 12 on your order paper. Those in favour please developments. I would add that the other Crown say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. dependencies of Jersey and Guernsey are faced with precisely the same situation. A detailed design and feasibility study commenced in April 1999 to determine the most cost-effective technical Emergency Services Joint Control Room — • solution to meet the needs of the Isle of Man. In January Design Fees (Pre-Contract) — 2000 invitations to tender for a functional design Expenditure Approved specification were issued to two companies capable of carrying out the complete turnkey project, these companies The President: Item 13, hon. member. being Simoco Europe Limited and Marconi Communications. For the information of members, only Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: four companies are capable of carrying out the required work and the other two companies withdrew their interest. That Tynwald approves the expenditure of a sum The tender responses are currently being evaluated in terms not exceeding £156,000 on design fees (pre-contract) in of three main elements, namely technical solution, respect of a scheme for the establishment of an emergency innovative financial package and long-term maintenance services joint control room. and support. It is intended that the Communications Commission will receive a recommendation as to the The planned introduction of the new digital trunked preferred supplier by 4th August. Subject to Treasury radio system, which was the subject of a previous motion, concurrence and then the approval of this hon. Court, it is has led the emergency services - that is the fire, police and intended to place the contract during November of this ambulance - to assess the impact that this system will have year, leading to a ready for service date on 2nd April 2002. on their respective operations and control structures. The

Digital Trunked Radio System — Expenditure Approved Emergency Services Joint Control Room — Design Fees (Pre-Contract) — Expenditure Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T937 increased functionality and facilities provided by the new would add that, following discussions with the coastguard system in terms of being able to deliver information to service, provision has also been made within the new where it is needed, namely the scene of the incident, will facility for the handling of their 999 calls, should this be be maximised through the introduction of an integrated required by virtue of changes to the present method of control room system and applications. It has been identified delivery. that the establishment of a single, consolidated, joint The main benefits associated with the proposal are that emergency services control room provides a logical, value- an improved service will be provided to the public: there for-money way forward, to achieve the objectives of will be improved efficiency and maximum use of bringing together the three emergency services to deliver resources; it will offer best value for money and - very a service to the public in a more innovative, cost-effective importantly in this modern society - will assist in providing and operationally efficient manner. I feel that a quote from measurable accountability. Several options were appraised the UK authorities when announcing the funding of their to determine the most cost-effective method of achieving facilities is worthy of repeating as its contents are equally the objectives. These options included doing nothing, applicable to the Isle of Man. I quote: 'Present dramatic upgrading existing control rooms, utilising existing developments in communications make it necessary to government properties, properties in the private sector or invest in new control room and communication systems a new build. The preferred solution, offering best value to make sure both public and staff benefit from state-of- for money in the realisation of the operational and financial the-art equipment. This investment is needed by all the benefits, is for the construction of a new facility on land in emergency services: police, fire and ambulance. The the Linden Grove site behind the existing police taxpayer cannot be expected to pay out three times over headquarters. The Linden Grove site is in government and we must look for the best deal for all three services. ownership and the portion of this site to be used is that This means joint control and communication systems, not currently being used by the police as an overflow car park. takeovers by one service of another but genuine joint The recommendation of the business case was that working.' Treasury concurrence and the approval of this hon. Court This principle has been adopted to comply with the Isle should be sought initially for the pre-contract design fees of Man Government's initiative in providing value for and subsequently at a future date to seek approval for the money. A project team consisting of the chief officers of capital funding for the construction costs and costs each service, senior officers of the respective departments associated with the implementation of updated systems. and the Communications Commission was established to The establishment of the proposed facility, together with investigate the feasibility of such a facility specific to Isle the implementation of the new digital trunked radio system, of Man requirements. The outcome of this study was the sets the future communication strategy of the emergency submission of a full business case to Treasury detailing services and I beg to move. the strategy, benefits, associated costs and the identification of a preferred option. I would add that all three chief Mr Duggan: I beg to second, sir. officers of the emergency services have signed an agreement fully supporting the project and its deliverables. Mrs Christian: Mr President, I would have have wished Members may ask, 'Why do we need a change from the to second but certainly want to endorse the remarks of the present system?' Currently, the three services operate hon. member for Ramsey in respect of this resolution. There independent radio systems from three separate control have in times past been moves to promote an emergency rooms with limited capability for inter-operability. This services joint control room and they have come to nothing. precise drawback was highlighted in the two reports However, this change to the digital trunked radio system published following the King's Cross and Hillsborough does provide an impetus for another attempt at combining disasters. In addition the current control room systems and the control of the emergency services and on this occasion limited applications require replacing and updating in order clearly makes financial sense because it would be foolish to meet the present and, particularly, the future needs of of us to establish three separate systems at this time when the three services. such a change is absolutely necessary. And there is also, The objectives of this project are therefore: (a) to as the hon. mover has indicated, good will on the part of consolidate the existing emergency services control rooms all the emergency services who will be involved in this into one Islandwide communications centre facility which and there is a spirit of co-operation abroad which, I believe, will also incorporate the management of the new digital will go a long way to ironing out problems - which trunked radio system; (b) to facilitate improved emergency undoubtedly will arise but I am quite sure will be overcome. service call handling and dispatch, based on the use of We know that in other places, in the United Kingdom, new technology and applications such as computer-aided attempts at combination of the emergency services control dispatch, incident and resource management, geographic rooms have been effected, sometimes not very successfully, information systems and medical priority dispatch; (c) to partly because the boundaries of the various services were introduce up-to-date information systems and information not co-terminus. We do not have that problem here, we are technology strategy common to all three services, and (d) all bounded by the same piece of sea and therefore all to achieve - economies of scale in the staffing and working in the same geographic area. management of the new facility, as against the current I believe that because of the good will, because of the staffing of three separate control rooms, by operating the change to the new system, because of the spirit of co- joint control room with a multidisciplinary civilian staff. I operation and because I feel that guarantees have gone to

Emergency Services Joint Control Room — Design Fees (Pre-Contract) — Expenditure Approved T938 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 staff about the security of their jobs and so on, that this is cable is that is coming into that centre, to make sure that it the ideal time, the sensible time to move towards this joint cannot be cut by some other company who could be cutting control room and I do hope that all hon. members will cables at that time. support the motion on the order paper. Mr Downie: I would like to congratulate the department Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I wonder, the Minister for on really what is quite an innovative and well-timed issue. Health and Social Security mentioned security of jobs but Not only will we have a new radio network in the Island if all these emergency areas are to come together under but we have also got the opportunity of having a proper, the one roof, surely the same number of workforce are not fully-co-ordinated emergency service. I understand that needed and therefore somebody will be made redundant. as part of that, for the first time ever, we will have the Will their jobs be in another area? The Minister for Health facility where all the various emergency organisations will has said 'security' of jobs, what does that absolutely mean? have a channel where they can talk to each other instead If there is redundancy, will they get redundancy pay? Of of having to refer back or use other modes of course there are going to be changes, so there will need to communication. And as well as that there is provision be change from - I would have thought - each individual within the network for other government departments to area to them coming together. There will obviously be utilise the system: our own people in DAFF; the training, so the job will change but I wonder whether Department of Tourism and Leisure, who are involved in everyone's job is secure. It would seem strange that the operation of the Ti' and other events, they will be able everything is coming together and the same number of to fully utilise the very valuable service that this network employees are needed. Otherwise, it seems to be a is going to provide to the Isle of Man. I think it is well reasonable proposition if everyone is in agreement. timed, it has been well planned by the department and it should proceed as quickly as possible. Mr Quine: I would just like to lend my support, sir. I think this is very much needed and there is no doubt it will The President: I call upon the minister to reply. enhance efficiency to a great extent. But I just wanted to pick up from the hon. member for Peel the point she Mr Bell: Mr President, can I say, first of all, thank you touched upon. It seems to me that if you have got a to all those members who have spoken. Their support is combined integrated control room - if in truth it is combined welcomed not only by myself but I am sure by the staff of and integrated and not an assembly of three or four control the Communications Commission and Robert Williamson rooms under one roof - then there must be, there should in particular, who has worked so hard to put this together be, significant savings either in personnel or somewhere over the last few months. along the line which would impact upon revenue. I am As the hon. member for Council, Mrs Christian, said just wondering to what extent this aspect has been looked during her contribution, there is a spirit of co-operation at and perhaps he could give us some idea of what, if any, abroad now between the various emergency services. There implications there are for revenue. is a recognition that this is the best way forward and ultimately everyone will win in this particular change Mr Braidwood: Mr President, I would like to endorse which has taken place, in particular the public of the Isle the sentiments expressed by the hon. member for Council. of Man, in so far as the ability of the emergency services We do need a modern, up-to-date emergency control room. to react in a more effective and speedy manner ought to be But following on from the hon. member for Peel and the enhanced when this new system comes into place. There hon. member for Ayre, talking about establishments, I am may well be hiccups along the way before we finally get sure that the police will probably absorb some this whole system up and running. It is a new departure establishment and hopefully have some more parking for the Isle of Man. Again, as the hon. member has said, controllers or transfer them. But another point I would like there have been attempts in the United Kingdom at really to raise is that the minister, when he was talking about the a similar exercise and they have run into problems of control room, said the space being utilised would be the territorialism - not only between the services but also overflow at the present time from the police car park. Once because, as the hon. member has said, the various this control room is built, would the remaining land, if it is jurisdictions of each emergency service did not necessarily not being used - which, hopefully, it will not be - for part overlap and that caused some considerable problems. of the new prison, be transferred back to the Department Because the jurisdiction for every service on the Isle of of Local Government and the Environment? Because this Man does overlap, we should not have any of that difficulty. is an absolutely marvellous area for a brownfield I have to say I am very grateful and pleased with the way development for housing. the officers of the three emergency services have responded in such a very positive and constructive way in putting Mr Houghton: Hear, hear. this whole scheme together and I think although there was some initial nervousness about the direction we were Mr Waft: Mr President, I was at the presentation last proposing, there is now whole-hearted support for it. week and I thoroughly compliment the minister on bringing The hon. member for Peel has referred to the security this forward. This is an excellent idea and I think it has got of jobs. We would expect in the new service that is set up to be the way forward for the Isle of Man. The only thing there will be a staff requirement of somewhere in the region I did mention was perhaps you should check on where the of 20 people to man the control room 24 hours a day. Now

Emergency Services Joint Control Room — Design Fees (Pre-Contract) — Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T939 currently, as I have said, the police, the fire and the than his concerns, but obviously the site will be well ambulance have three separate control rooms. Without surveyed before it is developed. We are talking about state- being disparaging, I think it is probably fair to say that the of-the-art, highly sensitive communications equipment ambulance service has the most professional, in the sense going into this site and it is absolutely essential that nothing that they have a dedicated body of people who are there goes wrong and therefore there will be greater checks on virtually full-time. The fire service tends to use the officers the surrounding area on this particular project than there who are on watch at any particular time to man the control have ever been before. room, so they are not dedicated, as such, to the control Finally, the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Downie, room there. Likewise with the police, it is not always a makes reference to the security of the channel that the fully dedicated group of individuals who man the police services will be able to use. It is an unfortunate sign of the service. The issue of jobs has still got to be finally structured times that we need to develop a higher level of security on and put to bed. The one guarantee that we have given the emergency services but it is something we have to live everyone, and we will stand by it, is there will be no with and respond to and so the new channel which we will redundancies at all. be using is fully encrypted It will be considerably more Ultimately, we would envisage - and we are talking now secure than anything the emergency services have ever over a three-year period - that the staff in this new control had before. And the other benefit, which I might just finally room will be civilianised. It will not be linked to the staffing touch on, is that for the first time - and we have had some of either police, fire or ambulance. It will be a stand alone considerable discussions with the data protection officer operation. But the ability to enhance still further the level on this - there will be a free interchange of information of professionalism will be increased because these people between the three services within the control room. There will be full-time, they will be dedicated, that will be their has been some difficulty in the past which, to my mind, job. They will not be drawn off for other police matters or sounds utterly ridiculous but there have been problems, fire issues or whatever, that will be their sole job. We are where there has been an emergency situation, for the police hoping that the service that we will be able to operate for to transfer information to the fire service or the fire service the public, as I have said, will be enhanced but also it will to the ambulance or whatever. I hope we have got over give a new career opportunity for those people going into that problem now. There will be a free exchange of this particular service. So I can give an assurance, and we information in the control room itself and that again ought have given an assurance, to all the officers involved that to - or, I am sure, will - enhance the efficiency and the there will be no redundancies. Where there are savings professionalism of the service which we can offer the over a period of time, if there is a redundant post, it will be public. through natural wastage. There will be no forced So, Mr President, I thank sincerely hon. members for redundancies. the support they have given. I am sure this is a step forward Mr Quine has asked what the revenue savings are likely in raising the quality of the service that the emergency to be. We estimate at the moment somewhere in the region services can offer to the public and we will all in the course of £350,000 a year. That is our best estimate at this of time, I am sure, benefit considerably from this. I beg to particular time. The benefits from this are twofold. It is move. not only a financial benefit from a revenue point of view but it is - probably more importantly - the enhancement The President: Hon. members, the motion is that and improvement of the service that we are operating. printed at 13 on your order paper. Those in favour please The hon. member for East Douglas, Mr Braidwood, has - I think - suggested that any redundant police officers could say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Now, hon. members, being aware of the Court clock at be reallocated as parking controllers. (Laughter) The one guarantee I can give in this particular debate is that that 10 minutes past 6, can I make a suggestion that possibly most definitely will not happen. That is a separate issue we sit for another hour or so with a guillotine, say, at 7.30? altogether and will need to be considered on its own merits. I think if we take another hour out now, we may very well However, the point he makes about the balance of the land move nicely on to the agenda so that we can finish at Linden Grove: it has been the understanding right from tomorrow, if not at lunch-time tomorrow. Are you agreed, the very outset, when Linden Grove was first bought with hon. members? the intention at that stage of developing it for the prison, that should government's or my department's need of that Members: Agreed. particular area of land not materialise, then that land will automatically be transferred back to DoLGE, specifically for housing. And that is our intention. As soon as we have Southern Civic Amenity Site — Alterations finally identified what areas of land we want in that area - and Extension — Expenditure Approved and I think we have a pretty good idea now of the footprint that we will be looking for - then the balance of that land will go straight back to DoLGE and I hope they will be The President: In that case we will continue with item building houses on it as quickly as possible. 14 on the order paper and I call on the Minister for Local The hon. member of the Council, Mr Waft, is concerned Government and the Environment. about cables coming into the site. .I can assure him that our concerns for the cables remaining intact are much greater Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I beg to move:

Southern Civic Amenity Site — Alterations and Extension — Expenditure Approved T940 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 That Tynwald approves the expenditure of a sum Mr Singer: A personal attack now. not exceeding f31,000 on fees to tender stage in respect of • a scheme for alterations and extension to the Southern Mrs Hannan: I do not care if it is a personal attack. It Civic Amenity Site which forms part of a series of works was what he told them down there. under the general heading civic amenity sites. Mr Delaney: Thirty all. This scheme is part of the department's policy of reuse and recycling (A Member: Hear, hear.) which includes Mrs Hannan: This is needed, it is wanted, people want improved civic amenity sites in the south, east and north to compost, they want to take the material down to the of the Island. This particular scheme seeks to improve and western site and have it composted and therefore I would extend the existing southern civic amenity area and to appeal to the Minister for Local Government and the provide a material reuse area similar to - and indeed, I Environment to provide composting facilities there. And I would hope, better than the civic amenity site which works can give him information with regard to composting and so successfully in the west of the Island. The southern site recycling. I know he does not want it but I have certainly will also feature an area for processing construction waste, sent some of it to him. I will send the rest of it to him and a function which the current site offers but which needs it does not mean leaching or anything like that. I believe urgent improvement. The site will also provide an area to that it should be each of the amenity sites and not just the carry out the composting of all the green waste collected southern one. on the Island. This material can either be returned to householders once the processing is completed or used to Several Members Hear, hear. restore the surrounding land previously used as a landfill site so it can become available for community use. Mr Delaney: More rubbish for Peel. At this stage approval is sought for a sum not exceeding • £31,000 for the costs of bringing this worthwhile scheme The President: I call on the minister to reply. to tender stage. This motion seeks approval to that expenditure for fees so that the scheme can proceed. I hope Mrs Cannell: Mr President - that this resolution will be strongly supported, particularly by those members of this hon. Court who, rightly, strongly The President: Hon. member for Douglas East, Mrs believe in reuse and recycling. Cannell. Sorry, minister.

Several Members: Hear, hear. Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. I shall not be long on my feet. Merely, just to put it to the minister really, Mrs Crowe: Mr President, I am delighted to second is he is thinking of a central composting facility of green this motion. The civic amenity site in the south has been waste for the Isle of Man in seeking to extend this particular an outstanding success and I am sure that the new site? Has he also considered decentralisation of composting composting unit will be a similar success. There has been units so that each region of the Island can have its own a success rate in the adjacent isle for composting units composting section, bearing in mind that if he is thinking where there are large gardens in the area and this does that this particular site is going to service not only the south apply in the south. But I would ask the minister if the but the east and the north of the Island, then of course we department would look at the entrance and exit to that site. have got the lorries again pounding all the way through At present the exit is dangerous and there are no mirrors Rushen to the green composting unit to put in their very to warn of oncoming vehicles. So I am delighted to second worthwhile resource. Further to that, what sort of and I hope it will be - and I am sure it will be - a success. composting unit is his department thinking of? Is it s • vertical one? Has he sought information on the type of Mrs Hannan: The minister mentioned, Eaghtyrane, that facility that he wishes to have put in place there? Will hon. this was for - I think he said - the south, the east and the members be circulated with any kind of briefing in relation north for collection of compost for composting and he said to what he is proposing there? as good as or even better than the western one. The western And finally, the £31,000 is only to bring the project to one does not have a facility for composting - tender stage, so I assume a lot of this is going to architectural fees et cetera. What is the overall expected Mr Gilbey: I never said that. cost of the provision of the facility? And will it, hopefully, match that that the Isle of Wight enjoys, where recently Mrs Hannan: - but it is something that was promised they have actually thrown £3million at a scheme for a some two years ago by the Department of Local composting facility, renewed their refuse vehicle fleet and Government and the Environment and people do go down also made improvements to their other amenity sites to the western amenity site and they do want to provide - throughout the Isle of Wight? So there are a number of (Mr Downie interjecting) It was that minister who is now questions there that I would appreciate some clarification in Agriculture, who actually promised that there would be on, please. a composting unit there without fail within months. (Interjections) The President: Now, the minister may reply. Southern Civic Amenity Site — Alterations and Extension — Expenditure Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T941

Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I would like to thank the hon. A committee of the Council of Ministers has been member for Rushen, Mrs Crowe, very much for her considering the Island's gaming laws and has proposed a support. I think I am right in saying that the plans do number of recommendations for inclusion in the Gaming, envisage the road entrance being improved and this was a Betting and Lotteries (Amendment) Bill and the Council matter which was discussed, but the whole idea is to of Ministers has endorsed the recommendations of that committee and agreed to their inclusion in that Bill. Council provide something that is even better than the western site. has also agreed that those measures recommended by the Learning from our experiences at the western site. I am committee that can be effected by order should be sad that some people never seem satisfied (Several implemented as soon as possible. Members: Hear, hear.) and that the hon. member for Peel Now, there is only one recommendation that can be dealt wants a composting site in the west and seems to want with by order and this relates to the control on the opening them all round the Island. hours of betting shops. The Gaming, Betting and Lotteries Act 1988, schedule 2, paragraph 1 provides that betting Mrs Hannan: Absolutely, why not? offices shall be closed throughout Good Friday, Christmas Day and every Sunday and on weekdays except between Mr Gilbey: I am sure it is right to start with one such hours as the Council of Ministers may by order composting plant and see how that works, to see what prescribe. Different hours may be prescribed in respect of volumes are brought to it, how it works et cetera. I can say different periods of the year. Under the Licensed Betting that far bigger areas than the Isle of Man operate with one Offices (Opening Hours) Order 1993 the hours during composting plant because I have been to see one in which licensed betting offices may be open on weekdays are between 10.30 a.m. and 10 p.m. in the months of April Somerset. to August inclusive and between 10.30 a.m. and 6.30 p.m. in the months of September to March inclusive. Now, Mr Delaney: Ah, scrumpy country, good old scrumpy following representations from local licensed bookmakers country. and having discussed the matter with the Gaming Control Commissioners, the Council of Ministers has agreed to Mr Gilbey: Yes, cider apple country. (Laughter and recommend that the control on the opening hours of betting interjections) As to the technical specifications that the shops should be totally removed, with the exception of hon. member for East Douglas asked for, I am afraid I am Christmas Day and Good Friday when betting shops should not a technical expert in composting and do not pretend to be prohibited from opening. In the United Kingdom betting be but if she would care to seek that information from the offices can open from 7 a.m. until 10 p.m. April to August waste manager, he will be very pleased to supply it and and from 7 a.m. to 6.30 p.m. September to March. There show her all the particulars of the kind of composting plant, are no special restrictions in relation to Sundays and this its operation and anything else and the same applies to has been the position in the UK since 1993-94. The restrictions on weekday opening cannot be entirely any other member who would like detailed technical removed by order as the power is prescribed opening and information about it. The total cost will be in excess of closing times, not to abolish them. Such a step can only be £200,000 but I personally believe that is money very well taken by primary legislation and so will come forward in worthwhile to get a really worthwhile civic amenity site the Gaming, Betting and Lotteries (Amendment) Bill which in the south and, when we have completed one there, it is will be introduced in the next legislative session. As an the intention to get one in the east and to get one in the interim measure, therefore, the Council of Ministers is north as well as part of our overall waste management recommending that the Licensed Betting Offices (Opening policy. Hours) Order 2000 be approved which will prescribe the opening hours for licensed betting offices to be from 8 A Member: Hear, hear. a.m. to 10 p.m. on weekdays. Mr President I therefore beg to move the motion The President: Hon. members, the motion is that standing in my name at item number 15 on today's agenda printed at item 14 on your order paper. Will those in favour paper. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Mr Bell: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. have it. The President: The motion, hon. members, is that printed at item 15 on your order paper. Will those in favour Licensed Betting Offices (Opening Hours) please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes Order 2000 — Approved have it.

The President: Item 15 and I call on the Chief Minister to move. Social Security Act 2000 (Amendment) Order 2000 — Approved Mr Gelling: Mr President, I beg to move: The President: We turn then to the Social Security Act That the Licensed Betting Offices (Opening Hours) 2000 at item 16 and I call on the Minister for Health and Order 2000 [SD No 419/001 be approved. Social Security to move.

Licensed Betting Offices (Opening Hours) Order 2000 — Approved Social Security Act 2000 (Amendment) Order 2000 — Approved T942 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: and I want to reiterate and support the hon. member for East Douglas's call for an early briefing on any major issues • That the Social Security Act 2000 (Amendment) that are going to be brought in, so that we have plenty of Order 2000 [SD No 364/001 be approved. time to consider what is going to be on the order paper and form up our opinions and thoughts or debating issues on The Social Security Act 2000 provides the department the said order or legislation, whatever that may be. I do with an enabling power to apply appropriate United not want to find myself in six months' time in a situation, Kingdom social security legislation to the Island by orders which we seem all too often to find ourselves in here, with approved by Tynwald. This is the only function of that a ream of different things to go through - and they do seem Act. The Act contains a list of United Kingdom Acts to to go through quickly at times. They are very important which the enabling power applies. The order before the and they do make fundamental changes to our system and Court today simply adds an Act to that list. It does not I would like to put my marker down and support the issue apply any of the provisions of the Act. It is simply an for a bit of time and briefing sessions before we start driving enabling mechanism. I beg to move. down this highway that the hon. health minister is building this afternoon - or this evening. Thank you, Mr President. Mr Rimington: I beg to second, sir. The President: I call upon the minister to reply. Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I take the point the hon. minister has just made in relation to the fact that the Mrs Christian: Mr President, I note the comments of provisions of the Act are not applied. But merely by the hon. members who have referred to the possible follow- approving this today, it will enable such provisions of such on from the introduction of this particular piece of Act to apply in the future. And that is where I just put my legislation under the Social Security Act 2000. However, marker here. Because, of course, under this particular Act I would draw members' attention to the memorandum that • we could be faced with having to incorporate the has been circulated. The legislation which we are applying stakeholder pension schemes as one particular item into in this order does contain a number of very valuable the Isle of Man, which we may at some point in the future provisions which I am sure hon. members would seek to not wish to bring into the Isle of Man. have implemented in the Island. I would also draw their I believe at some point in the future this hon. Court is attention to the point that is made at paragraph 2(6) in the going to have to make a decision as to whether to sever memorandum, that the department is considering various the link with the reciprocal agreement or continue with it aspects of the Act which will in due course come before because of course, other than the stakeholder pension, there this Court, if the department feels it is appropriate to are some quite fundamental changes on their way in the introduce them, and of course Tynwald will have its form of this Act, as and when of course it goes through in opportunity to accept or not any proposals which the the United Kingdom. Just a little bit of caution here in department brings forward. I would hate to think that this respect of this. I am very concerned about the provisions Court simply rubber-stamps all of this legislation. It is that the UK Government are considering under this important, as hon. members have said, but I feel quite sure particular Act but most especially the stakeholder pension that members do give proper consideration to what they scheme. I do not believe that that is going to be appropriate are approving in the Court. I would certainly hope that to for the people in the Isle of Man and I think we are going be the case. to have to look at this very closely and, as I say, I issue a But to revert, Mr President, to the actual purpose of word of caution in relation to this. I would not want hon. this order, it is simply to add that one piece of legislation members to just rubber-stamp, as they do on many other to the list appended to the Social Security Act occasions, any of the requirements brought forward by the (Amendment) Order. I beg to move. • health minister under the Social Security Act or Pension Schemes Acts. The President: Hon. members, the motion is that So I am merely putting a marker down that I am most printed at item 16 on your order paper. Will those in favour concerned and will be looking out for this particular item. please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. I would hope, hon. minister, before even applying or attempting to apply the provisions of this particular Act, A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: that there will be quite comprehensive briefings and meetings so that members can fully appreciate the In the Keys - fundamental changes proposed under this legislation. Thank you. For: Messrs Quine, North, Sir Miles Walker, Messrs Rimington, Brown, Cretney, Duggan, Braidwood, Mrs Mr Henderson: Mr President, I wish to build upon the Hannan, Messrs Singer, Corkill, Cannell, Gelling and comments that the hon. member for East Douglas has just the Speaker - 14 made and raised. I, too, am concerned because to me this is laying out the highway which in the future will allow Against: Mr Henderson and Mrs Cannell - 2 the Department of Health and Social Security to drive down whatever vehicle it sees fit in relation to whatever UK The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the legislation it wishes to bring in. That, too, concerns me House of Keys, 14 votes in favour and 2 votes against.

Social Security Act 2000 (Amendment) Order 2000 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T943

In the Council - their rules we have changed ours and our pensioners lost out on that. I, if I live long enough, hope to be in a position For: Messrs Lowey, Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs Kniveton, - certainly before the next election - to put the question Radcliffe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney down for this chamber to look at the differential - I am not and Crowe - 8 going into all the facts and details - to use this particular order as they would use it to change their policy, maybe to Against: None suit our pensioners. It is not going to be done. Well, I intend that we who are patiently waiting and our people who are The President: Unanimity in the Council, hon. patiently waiting - with theirs - should do something about members. The motion therefore carries. it and I believe this Court should do something about it. I will be taking steps before this hon. House goes to the electorate to put down the opportunity for the members to see whether or not they believe that what was promised Pensions Schemes Order 2000 — Approved across the water, what has not been carried out, what was done to the pensioners and which we have tried to alter - The President: We turn then to item 17 on your order successfully, in some cases - should be now brought up to paper and again I call upon the Minister for Health and the proper position of the exact amount of money being Social Security to move. paid to our pensioners which had been lost through Mrs Thatcher and her Conservative government policy. I would Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to just say this is the opportunity to do it, Mr President, to let move: you know what is coming.

That the Pensions Schemes Order 2000 [SD No 365/ Mr Brown: You should have stayed in the Keys, then! 00] be approved. Mr Henderson: Mr President, I would reiterate my This order is very similar to the previous order. The comments as for item 16 are applicable here and would Pension Schemes Act 1995 provides the department with ask the hon. minister to give some sort of a commitment an enabling power to apply United Kingdom pensions for a thorough briefing nearer the time, whenever and legislation to the Island by order approved by Tynwald. whatever legislation comes through as a result of this As with the previous order, it is of a technical nature and it enabling order that is before us. is simply an enabling mechanism to add the Welfare and Reform and Pensions Act 1999 to the list of legislation Mr Waft: Mr President, just a small item. I, too, think under which orders can be approved by the Court. I beg to there should be more relation of pensions to earnings. The move. differential is getting greater and greater all the time. (Mr Delaney: Hear, hear.) With regard to the Manx supplement, Mr Rimington: I beg to second and reserve my I do not know whether members are fully aware but even remarks. if you have lived all your life in the Isle of Man, if you have not had the full recompense of your pension because Mr Delaney: This one is worth a word on, Mr President. of some years missed out that is reduced on the Manx Purely, as the minister says, it enables us to bring through supplement. Perhaps the minister might clarify that. legislation. A lot of us in this Court have waited for nearly four years for the British Government and their promises The President: The minister to reply. brought to their general election, and which we are tied to for pensions in the Isle of Man, to carry out the promises Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I thank hon. they made to bring back the pensions to the retail price members for their comments which had absolutely on the index level. Well, I think we have all waited long enough most part nothing to do with the order - and this order is the type of thing that we would use, had they carried out their promises over there. Well, I believe Mr Delaney: Good opportunity, though! that we have taken some steps with the Isle of Man supplementary pension to bring a parallel of what they lost Mrs Christian: - a total distortion of what the item is when Mrs Thatcher in her meanness decided to change about, except for the hon. member for Douglas North who the rules of engagement. Well, having waited now and has asked for a briefing on any measures which may be having seen a Labour government come in with the introduced consequently if this order is approved today. promises and commitments that were made to the The department does endeavour to brief hon. members on pensioners, 15 per cent of the British population, it did not any of the material which comes before the Court from happen and rightly so, not only have other problems been the DHSS. However, if there are significant and major felt by them but I believe it will backfire at the next election. changes in relation to pensions or any other matter, we I believe in the Isle of Man there is still a discrepancy will certainly endeavour to appraise members of those between what we are paying and what they should be changes. getting because of what we have done - through this type I do hope hon. members will see fit to add this particular of order by the way. When the British Government change piece of legislation to the list under the order. I regret that

Pensions Schemes Order 2000 — Approved T944 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 on the previous one certain members refused to support Social Security Legislation (Application) an opportunity for us to bring forward further orders which (No. 13) Order 2000 — Approved dealt with very significant social security issues, but that is a matter for them to defend. I beg to move, Mr President. The President: Item 19, the Minister for Health and Social Security. The President: Hon. members, the motion is that printed at item 17 on your order paper, the Pension Schemes Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: Act 1995. Will those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. That the Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 13) Order 2000 [SD No 367/00] be approved. A division was called for and voting resulted as follows: This order, which again comes into operation with effect In the Keys - from April 2000, brings the regulations governing jobseeker's allowance in relation to housing costs, For: Messrs Gilbey, Quine, Rodan, North, Sir Miles Walker, premiums and sums to be disregarded in the calculation of Messrs Rimington, Brown, Henderson, Cretney, income, into line with the corresponding provisions in new Braidwood, Shimmin, Downie, Mrs Hannan, Messrs income support measures. The reason for this is to provide Corkill, Cannell, Gelling and the Speaker - 17 that claimants will suffer no detriment if transferring between these benefits. I beg to move. Against: Mrs Cannell - 1 Mr Rimington: I beg to second, sir. The Speaker: Mr President, the motion carries in the House of Keys, 17 votes in favour, 1 vote against. The President: The motion is, hon. members, that printed at 19 on your order paper. Those in favour please In the Council - say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. For: Messrs Lowey, Waft, Dr Mann, Messrs Kniveton, Radcliffe, Mrs Christian, Messrs Delaney and Crowe - 8 Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 14) Order 2000 — Approved Against: None The President: Item 20, Mrs Christian. The President: Unanimity again in the Council for. So the item at 17, the motion therefore passes. Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move:

That the Social Security Legislation (Application) Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 14) Order 2000 [SD No 368/00] be approved. (No. 12) Order 2000 — Approved This order is concerned with the application to the Island of United Kingdom legislation relating to the April 2000 The President: We then turn to item 18. Again, the uprating of social security benefits which are subject to Minister for Health and Social Security to move. the reciprocal agreement between the Island and the United Kingdom. Hon. members are aware that each year the Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: United Kingdom Department of Social Security obtains approval for the changes in benefit rates by means of an That the Social Security Legislation (Application) order submitted to Parliament. The relevant parts of the (No. 12) Order 2000 [SD NO 366/00] be approved. order are then applied to the Island by means of an application order. The United Kingdom order was not made This order provides with effect from April 2000 for in sufficient time for it to be applied to the Island prior to transitional protection for a small number of cases affected the date that the changes were due to take effect. The following the alignment of certain jobseeker's allowance standing authority given to the Department of Health and provisions with income support. We have circulated a Social Security under the terms of a declaratory resolution memorandum giving the detail of this to hon. members. I of this hon. Court in October 1993 enabled the department beg to move. to arrange for the changes to be implemented administratively from April and to submit the appropriate Mr Rimington: I beg to second, sir. legislation for approval at a later date. The appropriate legislation is contained in this number 14 order. A copy of The President: Hon. members, the motion is that the memorandum which was circulated in March giving printed at item 18 on your order paper. Will those in favour the updated benefit rates has been circulated again in the please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes last couple of weeks to hon. members, setting out the have it. implications of this order. I beg to move.

Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 12) Order 2000 — Approved Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 13) Order 2000 — Approved Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 14) Order 2000 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T945

Mr Rimington: I beg to second, sir. Regulations 1999. This provision provides for the effective date of a review decision to be the date of the decision, The President: Hon. members, the motion is printed unless the review involves ignorance or mistake about or at item 20 on your order paper. Those in favour please say failure to disclose a material fact, in which case the effective aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. date is when the claimant knew or could be expected to have known of that fact. So that is a slight tightening-up. The Social Security (Claims and Payments) (Amendment) Regulations' changes are beneficial. They Social Security Legislation (Application) align child benefit and guardian's allowance, allowing (No. 15) Order 2000 — Approved transition from one benefit to the other. The Social Security (Amendment) (Notional Income and Capital) Regulations The President: Item 21, the Minister for Health and provide for a tightening-up of the present structure. The Social Security. hon. member may or may not regard that as detrimental. It provides that if a person arranges to have his occupational Mrs Christian: Mr President, I beg to move: pension paid to a third party, it will still be treated as his income for the purposes of assessing jobseeker's That the Social Security Legislation (Application) allowance. The changes to the Jobseeker's Allowance (No. 15) Order 2000 [SD No 369/00] be approved. (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations are beneficial as are the changes to the Income Support (General) and This order applies with effect from August 2000 six Jobseeker's Allowance (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations. items of subsidiary legislation of the UK Parliament I hope that clarifies the changes which are embodied in concerned with making a number of minor amendments the order. to social security legislation applied to the Island. The amendments cover a variety of subjects, full details of The President: Hon. members, the motion is that which have been set out in the memorandum which has printed at item 21 on your order paper. Will those in favour been circulated for hon. members, but they are minor. I please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes beg to move. have it. Mr Rimington: I beg to second, sir.

Mr Henderson: Mr President, in rising to ask for some Dangerous Goods (Carriage by Road) clarification on this particular item, the hon. minister has (Consequential Provisions) indicated that there are several instruments that make up Order 2000 — Approved this particular item, some of which seem to be all right, some seem to be a tightening-up of regulations, a more The President: We turn then to item 22, hon. members, stringent or rigid application in the wording. Certainly, on the Dangerous Goods Act, and I call on the Minister for the explanatory memorandum at page 9, paragraph 7.2.2, Local Government and the Environment to move. there is certainly a very clear wording there that indicates a more rigid application. I am wondering which parts of Mr Gilbey: Mr President, I beg to move: this order - or orders or statutory instruments - are going to be beneficial and which are going to have a negative That the Dangerous Goods (Carriage by Road) impact. Am I correct in reading that there may be a negative (Consequential Provisions) Order 2000 [SD No 387/00] impact for some claimants in relation to the way they are be approved. now discussing the criteria in here and having to remove anomalies? I am very conscious of that phrase being used I hardly dare to hope that this is non-controversial. before - removing anomalies - and when it comes down to (Laughter and interjections) it, quite often it has a negative impact on somebody. So I would like some clarification on that point, please. I know Mr Brown: Go on, Walker, be optimistic! there are six statutory instruments. I would like to know which of the six are positive and if any are negative, Mr Mr Gilbey: The reason for seeking the approval of this President. Thank you. hon. Court to the order is that it will revoke outstanding provisions concerning the carriage of dangerous goods by The President: The minister to reply. road and enable the Department of Transport to introduce new provisions in this area entitled the Road Vehicles Mrs Christian: Yes, Mr President. I will endeavour to Carrying Dangerous Goods (Maintenance and Use) clarify those points for the hon. member. Much of the Regulations 2000 and the hon. Minister for the Department content of this order is for clarification purposes and of Transport is seeking approval to these new regulations therefore is neutral. However, the new definition of work by this hon. Court under item number 26 of the Tynwald condition is beneficial. There is a tightening-up, which the order paper. Mr President, I beg to move. hon. member may or may not regard as detrimental, in relation to the Social Security Adjudication (Amendment) Mr Brown: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 15) Order 2000 — Approved • Dangerous Goods (Carriage by Road) (Consequential Provisions) Order 2000 — Approved T946 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 Mrs Cannel!: Mr President, just some reassurance, Mr Shimmin: I beg to second, Mr President. really, I am looking for today from the hon. minister in • respect of this. I am looking at the explanatory note which The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed explains the provisions of the order in terms of the at 23 on your order paper. Those in favour please say aye; petroleum, inflammable liquids and compressed gases - I against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. find this quite interesting - petroleum spirit et cetera. Is this going to cover the carriage by road of any kind of fly or toxic ash from a future mass bum incinerator? Will this order provide for that type of situation or scenario? Highway Extinguishment (Corner Summerhill Road and Alberta Drive, Mr Singer: Having listened to what the hon. minister Onchan) Order 2000 — Approved said, as a matter of interest does the minister not think that perhaps item 26 should have been here first, so we approve The President: Item 24. The Minister for Transport to the new regulations before we withdraw the old regulations, move. because if we approve this and refuse number 26 we end up with no regulations at all? Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move:

Mr Karran: Eaghtyrane, can I just ask the minister, That the Highway Extinguishment (Corner has he got any plans for these regulations for the industrial Summerhill Road and Alberta Drive, Onchan) Order 2000 section in South Douglas as there is a sizeable danger down [SD No 340/00] be approved. there with gas and petrol and the like? Are there any moves on public safety to get those installations moved out of The purpose of this order is to extinguish the public South Douglas? right of way over part of the forecourt of the premises 30 • Summerhill Road, Onchan, on the grounds that it is not The President: I call on the minister to reply. needed for public use. If the order is approved by Tynwald the highway will be extinguished and will cease to be a Mr Gilbey: Well, Mr President, regarding transporting public road on 1st August 2000. All the necessary statutory fly ash, what I am removing will not cover it at all because consultations have been undertaken and requirements by it is going to be, I hope, removed. Any substances will be statute. I therefore beg to move the motion standing in my covered by the new order which my colleague is going to name. bring in. So it would be covered, if it is covered, and I am sure he will hopefully be able to answer that. Why bring Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. in this order before the other order? Well, we could have done it the other way round but I really had hoped, as I am The President: The motion, hon. members, is printed sure did my colleague, that this was not a matter for great at 24 on your order paper. Those in favour please say aye; controversy. All we are trying to do is update and improve against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. existing regulations. So I hope that this will be supported, Mr President.

The President: Hon. members, the motion is that Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations printed at 22 on the order paper. Those in favour please 2000 — Approved say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The President: Item 25, the Road Traffic Regulation Act. The Minister for Transport to move. Merchant Shipping (Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims) Mr Brown: Mr President, I beg to move: (Application) Order 2000 — Approved That the Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 2000 [SD No 391/00] be approved. The President: Twenty-three. On this occasion we call on the Minister for Trade and Industry to move. The Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 2000 make Mr North: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: provision in the Island for a new type of controlled pedestrian crossing which will be known as puffin That the Merchant Shipping (Convention on crossings. (Laughter) Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims) (Application) The aim of the new puffin crossings is twofold: firstly, Order 2000 [SD No 386/00] be approved. to improve pedestrian safety and, secondly, to reduce traffic delays that are common with existing pelican pedestrian The details of this order have been circulated and I beg crossings. Puffin crossings achieve this aim with the use to move that the Merchant Shipping (Convention on of detectors which monitor the progress of pedestrians Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims) (Application) using the crossing. In this way, if the pedestrian needs more Order 2000 be moved. time to cross the road, the traffic signal automatically stays

Merchant Shipping (Convention on Limitation of Liability for Maritime Claims) (Application) Order 2000 — Approved Highway Extinguishment (Corner Summerhill Road and Alberta Drive, Onchan) Order 2000 — Approved Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 2000 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T947

on red until the pedestrian is safely across. If, however, The President: I was awaiting. • the pedestrian moves away from the crossing or crosses earlier, the above-ground sensors will automatically cancel Mrs Cannell: Only very swift. the request so that the traffic flow is not impeded unnecessarily. A Member: Very swift! (Interjections and laughter) I beg to move the motion standing in my name, Mr President. Mrs Cannell: It is just that having read through the explanatory memorandum I do not see any provision for Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. the partially-sighted or disabled people. Does this system improve matters for those people who have difficulty with Mr Quine: I have to ask the minister, sir, whether he their sight? I note the colours, the surfaces are going to be knows the difference between a puffin and a penguin. yellow. That is good of course because yellow can be picked up by a partially-sighted person - as opposed to A Member: And a pelican. white, say, for instance. But for those people who are blind, will there be any tactile features in place to help the people Mr Quine: And a pelican, sir. . . (Laughter) who are blind?

A Member: You don't obviously. The President: The minister to reply.

Mr Quine: That one has fallen flat a bit! (Laughter) Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. If I just take the But the point is, we are talking about the puffin crossings hon. member Mrs Cannell first, just to say that my and yet in the diagram we are referring to pelican-controlled understanding is that they will very much be similar in areas. So I have to ask whether he knows the difference terms of their visual impact to a pelican crossing and between a puffin and a pelican. therefore the usual colours will apply. Of course, we import these products from the United Kingdom where all these Mr North: Pelicans rule! standards are met anyway. Tactile tiles will be used as normal where a crossing is and, as far as I am aware, there Mr Cretney: Get yourselves out to the Wildlife Park. will - where it is appropriate of course - be the usual sound or a similar sound to advise persons who are blind that it is The President: The hon. member of the Council, Mr safe to cross the road. If it is any different then I will advise Crowe. the hon. member. As far as Mr Crowe is concerned, the cost I have not Mr Crowe: Mr President - (Laughter) got here but I think, based on an earlier discussion I had, that the cost is similar to the cost of a pelican crossing. A Member: Crow! (Laughter) There is an additional cost I think in terms of sensors but we are not talking of considerable amounts of difference, Mr Crowe: Yes, it seems to be a bird thing today. in terms of we are not talking £5,000 or £6,000 difference, we are talking maybe of a thousand pounds or thereabouts. Mr Downie: Paying interest! (Laughter) That is my understanding anyway. Now then, as far as Mr Quine is concerned, the answer Mr Karran: Do not get in a flap! (Laughter) to the question is, yes, I do know the difference between a puffin, a penguin and a pelican. A penguin I have eaten, Mr Crowe: Yes, sorry. I was just going to ask the but it was a chocolate biscuit, a pelican I have crossed and question - presumably you are going to replace all the I am looking forward to crossing a puffin - pelicans with puffins but I was just wondering how much cost per new crossing will it be, Mr President? A Member: Don't cross a puffin with a pelican! (Laughter) The President: The minister to reply. Mr Brown: But the basic difference, apart from having difficulty saying 'a puffin pedestrian crossing', which I Mrs Cannell: Mr President, sir. am now getting used to -

The President: Oh, sorry. Hon. member, Mrs Cannell. Mrs Hannan: You have eaten a puffin. (Interjections) Mr Brown: - and I have eaten a puffin as well, I am Mrs Cannell: I did try to attract your attention, sir. just reminded, when I was up in the Faeroe Islands and I do not recommend it. But seriously, in terms of the puffin The President: Come on, then. The hon. member Mrs and the pelican, the difference is that of course when you Cannell. cross a pelican crossing which we have at the moment you press the button and it is all controlled by a timer and Mrs Cannell: Thank you, Mr President. therefore you have to cross -

III Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 2000 — Approved T948 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000

Mr Quine: It is the wrong word on the diagram. goods on the roads. The main reason for endeavouring to tidy this up is that then it is absolutely clear that this is a • Mr Brown: Oh, it is only a diagram. (Laughter) matter for highway legislation and therefore there is no confusion as to where responsibilities lie. I therefore beg Mr Delaney: Puffins cannot read. to move the motion standing in my name.

Mr Brown: And when you cross the road, it is timed. Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. You have so long to get from one side of the road to the other, regardless of what age you are, how fit you are, or Mrs Cannell: Mr President, I would appreciate some whatever. With a puffin crossing it will actually sense that clarification in respect of this, not being present as a the person is still crossing the road and, where it is elderly member in this hon. Court previously when such people or disabled people, it will actually keep the lights regulations went through. On page 23 on the table it on red. And when you get to the stage where the person describes in column 2 the description of dangerous goods has crossed the road very quickly, then the cars of course and it lists toxic gases. Now, again I would ask the same are indicated to move straightaway. As far as the diagram question to the hon. Minister for Transport as I did to the is concerned, certainly I will check to see whether or not previous minister who was on his feet. Does this provision the wording on that is of critical importance - but I will laid down enable fly ash or bottom ash from a mass burn check that. Thank you, Mr President. waste incinerator to be transported on our roads? And if the answer is yes, then have we always had that provision The President: Hon. members, the motion is printed or is this a new provision that is being included into this at 25 on your order paper. Those in favour please say aye; particular regulation? If it is being included for the first against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. time, which I would assume it is, can I ask then why we Hon. members, I would point out that even if a diagram have not been given a briefing in relation to this? • is attached it is attached, to the order so becomes part of And can the hon. minister tell me, if my assertion is the order. correct, that it does provide for such carriage of such toxic ash on our roads in the Isle of Man, what roads will be Mr Quine: Hear, hear. equipped to take it? Is it specified that it can only take a certain route, use a certain roadway or does it mean that all of the Island's roads are licensed to take such toxic The President: Item 26, the Minister for Transport to ash? Is this a new move, as I say, or is it just reaffirming an move. older provision - bearing in mind I was not here some years ago but am relatively new to the Island in comparison to Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. I would just the previous regulations which were passed in the '40s. In say on that last one that, as far as I understand now, I have fact that was before I was born. seen the point the member was raising. It is zoning the So, yes, a little bit concerned here that if these go through area, whereas the actual crossing will be a puffin crossing today as proposed and they do provide for such carriage but it still uses a similar area to a pelican area. But again I of such toxic material, it will be a first, I would assume, will check that and make sure that the order is correct and for the Island - other than oil and petroleum coming in as that there is not a mistake. it does and is taken and delivered to households and small- holdings et cetera around the Island. Is this opening the door to future further hazards on our roads because, if it Road Vehicles Carrying Dangerous Goods is, I would seriously ask hon. members to reconsider (Maintenance and Use) Regulations whether or not they ought to support this because we have 2000 — Approved not had a briefing or a proper explanation. Thank you. • The President: The minister to reply. Mr Brown: Mr President, the next item is the Road Vehicles Carrying Dangerous Goods (Maintenance and Mr Brown: Yes, thank you, Mr President. The basis of Use) Regulations 2000. I beg to move: this order is that any materials which are identified as being potentially dangerous or which are dangerous will be That the Road Vehicles Carrying Dangerous Goods required to meet the provisions of these regulations - and I (Maintenance and Use) Regulations 2000 [SD No 403/ would have thought, hon. members, regardless of whether 00] be approved. or not we have an incinerator, which is of course the point the hon. member for East Douglas is alluding to, Mrs The regulations bring up to date the Island's legislation Cannell. It is quite clear that if that happens then it is on the carriage of dangerous goods by road, which important that regulations are in place to ensure that those presently rests on outmoded provisions dating back many who are transporting the waste from A to B do so in proper years and in some instances back to 1928. The regulations conditions so there are no corners cut, that it is properly before the hon. Court supplement the Road Vehicles regulated, that everything is properly under control and (Maintenance and Use) Regulations 1998 which apply to very importantly - which these regulations do, of course - vehicles generally by imposing additional requirements is that the vehicle identifies what type of product is being and prohibitions on vehicles being used to carry dangerous carried on the vehicle in case there is an accident. Road Vehicles Carrying Dangerous Goods (Maintenance and Use) Regulations 2000 — Approved • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T949

Now, if the hon. member looks at page 20 on the actual use on roads of motor vehicles fitted with replacement Road Traffic Act statutory document 403/00 which was brake linings or pads containing asbestos. The ban is a circulated with the order paper and you look there under contribution to the elimination of asbestos from all products part 2 supplementary, paragraph 8, it says 'Additional wherever possible. Second, the schedule effectively information' and it says 'include where applicable any provides that replacement brake linings must conform to additional information which would be of assistance in an the standards of the original brake linings or pads with emergency', and it goes on to the next stage heading which which the motor vehicles were fitted when new. The is 'Infectious substances, goods from which dioxins may regulations are based on similar measures operative in form et cetera' and then it goes on to that. So clearly, Great Britain and elsewhere in Europe. I beg to move the whether or not we agree with them carrying any product motion standing in my name. on our roads, I would suggest it is very important that Tynwald Court gives the Department of Transport the Mrs Hannan: I beg to second and reserve my remarks. necessary powers to control and regulate where goods may be transferred around the Isle of Man which have the Mr Downie: I would just like to speak in support of potential to be dangerous. For example we have situations this motion and actually welcome this move. For some where we have explosives imported into the Isle of Man time now some of the third world countries have been and they are escorted by the police from A to B and are counterfeiting car parts. I say that because the last country stored in a safe place and I am sure whether or not we really that was taken to book was India, where large agree with people using explosives - and of course we are numbers of brake pads and brake linings were being talking about using them for controlled purposes - it is exported from there and they were finding their way into important that they are properly regulated to ensure public the marketplace. People were buying them in good faith, safety and that has to be paramount in our minds. fitting them to their vehicle and, lo and behold, when the So I would hope the hon. member would support the lining came in contact with the brake drum or the disc, regulations because, whether or not the hon. member agrees they were extruding large amounts of powdery asbestos. with an incinerator, if it happens surely you would want A lot of the asbestos that they were using was the red and regulations in place to ensure that the product that you the blue asbestos which has been outlawed in this country have a concern about is carried safely, in terms of public for a number of years. safety, and the emergency services are clearly aware that I think that what we are doing today is we are plugging that product is on a vehicle in case it is involved in an up a loophole. The order, as it says, is to deal with the sale, accident. I beg to move. rather than have some old vehicle stopped by the roadside for a check. I would think there are very few old vehicles The President: The motion is printed at - running around now with original asbestos brake linings. This move I think is much to be supported and when people Mrs Connell: Mr President, a point of order, please. think of the emissions from vehicles, from exhaust pipes, Before we go to the vote, can I just ask for clarification. If Pml Os, particulates, the last thing we want is to be giving we approve, are we not licensing this activity? them a dose of asbestosis just for good measure. Thank you, Mr President. The President: No, the minister has replied. It is enabling the Minister for Transport to have the power to The President: The minister to reply. control movement of goods around the Island, as I understand it. Those in favour of item 26 on the order paper Mr Brown: I just thank the hon. member for his please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes comments. have it. The President: The motion, hon. members, is that printed at 27 on your order paper. Those in favour please Road Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2000 — Approved Dual-Use and Related Goods (Export The President: Item 27, again the Minister for Control) (Amendment) Regulations 2000 Transport to move. (Application) Order 2000 — Approved

Mr Brown: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move: The President: Twenty-eight. The Minister for Treasury. That the Road Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2000 be approved. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move:

The regulations insert a new schedule 6A into the Road That the Dual-Use and Related Goods (Export Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) Regulations 1998. The Control) (Amendment) Regulations 2000 (Application) effects of the schedule are twofold. First, it prohibits the Order 2000 [SD No 299/00] be approved.

Road Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2000 — Approved Dual-Use and Related Goods (Export Control) (Amendment) Regulations 2000 (Application) Order 2000 — Approved T950 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

The purpose of this order is to apply in Island law That the Income Tax (Nursing Expenses) regulations which make amendments to the principal (Amendment) Order 2000 [SD No 390/00] be approved. regulations dealing with the control of the export of so- called dual-use goods. The principal regulations, the Dual- Section 39B, Income Tax Act 1970, grants tax relief in Use and Related Goods (Export Control) Regulations 1996 respect of the qualifying expenditure on nursing attendance are amended in three respects and that was circulated on and nursing home fees. As previously announced, it is the explanatory memorandum. The changes reflect those Treasury policy to keep this limit in line with the amount being made to UK law and their adoption in Island law is of the personal allowance. The effect of this order is required under the terms of the Customs and Excise therefore to increase the maximum permitted deduction Agreement and I beg to move, sir. from £7,350 to £7,535 per annum with effect from 6th April 2000. This was part of this year's budget, Mr Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. President. I beg to move that the Income Tax (Nursing Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2000 be approved, sir. The President: The motion, hon. members, is that at 28. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, Mr President. have it. The ayes have it. The President: Hon. members, the motion is that printed at 30 on your order paper. Those in favour please Home Loss Payments Regulations 2000 — say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Approved

The President: Twenty-nine. Again, the Minister for Procedural Treasury. The President: Item 31, the Chief Minister to move. Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: Mr Gelling: Mr President, could I ask for your guidance That the Home Loss Payments Regulations 2000 in as much as I have about 15 minutes' introduction and I [SD No 401/00] be approved. did expect perhaps there would be quite a lot of debate and your guidance was at half past seven - The purpose of the regulations is to make provision for the payment of home loss payments and discretionary The President: In that case, Chief Minister, I think if payments supplemental to sections 23A and 23B of the we can omit item 31 and return to it. Acquisition of Land Act 1984 and in accordance with the terms of the Acquisition of Land (Amendment) Act 2000. The regulations deal with: the making of a claim, which is Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report regulation 2; the time limit for making a home loss 1999/2000 — Motion Carried payment, regulation 3; the disposal of claims by joint occupiers in respect of the same dwelling, regulation 4; The President: And we will continue therefore with the disposal of claims by persons who have lived in item 32 and ask the Minister for Home Affairs to take 32. different rooms in the same building, which is regulation 5, and claims where a potential claimant has died, which is regulation 6. Mr Bell: Mr President. I beg to move: Mr President, the regulations offer improved compensation terms for qualifying claimants and I beg to That the Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report move the Home Loss Payments Regulations be approved, 1999/2000 be received. sir. The purpose of initiating a debate on the Chief Mr Radcliffe: I beg to second, sir. Constable's annual report is primarily to give hon. members the opportunity to comment on the performance of the Isle The President: The motion, hon. members, is at 29. of Man police service during the past 12 months, to raise Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have any criticisms or queries on that performance and also to it. The ayes have it. raise any issues which members would like both the Department of Home Affairs and the police service to address for the future. Last year members declined to make any comment when presented with the opportunity, largely Income Tax (Nursing Expenses) because we were in the process of changing our Chief (Amendment) Order 2000 — Approved Constable. However, this year gives us the opportunity to assess performance on the basis of some six months' tenure The President: Item 30, the Minister for Treasury. of a new Chief Constable. As members are aware, it has been a period of radical Mr Corkill: Mr President, I beg to move: change with the introduction of a range of measures to

Home Loss Payments Regulations 2000 — Approved Income Tax (Nursing Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2000 — Approved Procedural Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T951

enhance the modernisation of the service. In particular we for quite some time. It has also integrated far more with have had considerable decentralisation, not only of officers the regular force, working alongside them on a frequent from Douglas but also with the transfer of more basis. The uniform and helmets are also now almost responsibilities to and greater accountability of individual identical, reflecting the status and importance we place on inspectors and officers. With the reorganisation of the the role that the Special Constabulary now has in the Isle divisions and an energetic programme to raise the profile of Man policing plan. We often hear recently of falling of community policing, that is visible policing on the manpower numbers and lack of resources in the United streets, we have witnessed the first positive steps towards Kingdom police forces. I am pleased to say that this is not achieving what we believe is the expectation of our the case in the Isle of Man, with a 12 per cent increase in community. police numbers since 1997 and a current total of 239 I did warn last year that in an effort to identify the true officers and a 40 per cent increase in police budget during level of crime, we were altering the method adopted to that same period. We are also in the process of providing record crime. This has meant that every crime, no matter body armour for all the force and are currently considering how trivial, will now be recorded and this coupled with a the possibility of introducing CS gas to protect our officers closer everyday relationship between the police and the further. Their welfare remains our paramount concern. public, encouraging greater disclosures of criminal acts, Additionally, we have built a new police station in Port has, as predicted, led to a substantial increase in recorded Erin, refurbished Castletown station, reopened St Johns crime numbers. The year 1999 to 2000 has seen 4,911 and will shortly be reopening Willaston. We are also actual crimes recorded, an increase of some 16 per cent currently considering the refurbishment of Ramsey and over the previous year. Against that has been a decline in Peel stations, together with proposals for a new police the detection rate from 49 per cent to 42 per cent. This station in Lord Street to assist the Douglas operational figure is slightly disappointing but nevertheless gives the division. Isle of Man a detection level still amongst the highest It is not my intention to expand further on this report at compared to other UK police forces, something we can this time, as this is an occasion for members themselves to still be satisfied with. Two areas of concern remain: express their views. However, in closing, I would add that criminal damage, which at 31 per cent claims nearly one the Isle of Man police service has entered a period of third of all crimes committed and in some ways distorts transition in the modernisation process and I believe it will the overall figures, and crimes of violence which have be another two or three years before we see the full effects nearly doubled to 308. In some ways, again, our new of this change. I do, nevertheless, congratulate the Chief method of recording crime has impacted on those numbers Constable and his officers on the robust steps which have and in the case of violent behaviour I am sure that the been taken to respond to our community's expectations so Public Order Act has equally helped to inflate those figures. far and can assure him of the unstinting support of the Isle I have already raised these issues with the Chief Constable of Man Government for the efforts of his force often, in and his senior management team and together we will be very difficult circumstances, to deliver a first-class service looking for ways to combat both these problems in the to the Island. Mr President, I beg to move. future. Last year has also seen a major reorganisation of both Mr Duggan: I beg to second, Mr President. the drug squad, with a doubling of officers, and the establishment of the fraud squad, increased substantially Mr Houghton: Mr President, very briefly I rise to to create a new financial crimes unit. The drug squad in congratulate the hon. minister and his Chief Constable for particular has had an extremely successful year but the the opening tomorrow morning of Willaston police station real benefit should come over the next couple of years as (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) to be manned by a sergeant the new recruits become more experienced and are able to and 10 men - yes, 10 officers. It is something that we have make real inroads into the Island's drug culture. In addition dearly campaigned for for quite some time, myself and to the important internal changes and normal workload, my colleague here. It is a victory for law and order in the the service this year has had to contend with four major community and, as I say, I can only record my thanks and incidents, any one of which would have stretched the force congratulations to the minister on that. to its limits: Operation Safe and its aftermath; the Solway Turning briefly to the Special Constabulary, another Harvester; a major murder inquiry and the current nursing organisation that I feel very passionately for, again I home investigation, all coming at roughly the same time, congratulate the minister and his department for very ably have stretched the force to its absolute limits at times. That equipping the Special Constabulary with helmets - and, of it has coped successfully with all these incidents and course, no doubt stab-proof vests in due course, which unexpected pressures highlights the quality and unfortunately these days is extremely essential. May I ask, commitment and professionalism of the Isle of Man police though, if the minister has had time to look into the situation service and I pay tribute to everyone involved during that regarding insurance for special constables, should they be extremely difficult period. so injured whilst on duty? Thank you, sir. Whilst briefly mentioning some of the activities of the regular force, I must also comment on the outstanding Sir Miles Walker: Mr President, I just want to give my success of Lieutenant Colonel Roy Leeder in developing support to the Minister for Home Affairs for the changes the Special Constabulary. The past year has seen the that have been made in the police service generally. I think specials recruit its target of 50 members, the highest figure the majority of them have been certainly very positive and

III Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried T952 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000

I know that the number of foot patrols that have taken place the problems, which I was pleased he noted and agreed now have been a large increase on that in the past. I think with - two out of the three, anyhow, of the things I put • that all that bodes well, although we do appreciate the forward. I am also pleased, after many years - and he will words that have been said before that you cannot have be no doubt aware of it - of my belief that I have had in mobility and foot patrols, they do not sit too well together. here that there is a need for our police to be not only But there is a need for visible policing and I think the working for the community, but to be with the community. department have made a few strides in that direction. Also If we work that way, as seems to be showing paying the police station in Port Erin has gone down well and I do dividends, the public will not bite the police. Not that they believe it has a disciplinary effect on the surrounding area. will not be arrested but they will be happy to assist where I am really, though, brought to my feet because of the they are treated as the public and the police are treated as contents of a letter that was circulated, I suppose, to us all members of the public and I am delighted to see that seems this morning informing us that a Miss Irene Wilson has to be working. been appointed to the position of Deputy Chief Constable, I have had an invitation from the new Chief Constable albeit for a temporary period of time. I am not one who and, my apologies, three occasions he has asked me and believes that it is always best to look for a local person, a three times I have not been able to make the appointment Manx person, but I do think that should be the case to go round the part of the town that I know well. I believe wherever possible and I would just like an assurance from the police are getting on top of it but I do believe that we the minister that some attention is being paid to succession still will have to put more resources into the police. I do planning for the future. We have now got a youngish chief not think it will be done on the cheap. I do not believe that officer, there are changes afoot, and I do believe the you can have a wonderful police force of part-time sheriffs. succession planning is an important part of the I just think that does not work in the modern age. I think responsibilities of the department and I would like an what we have got to be doing is when they get down to the assurance that attention is being paid to that for the future. budget - looking at the Minister of Treasury - I think where • I would also say, while I am on my feet, that I hope the you need funds. Deputy Chief Constable, Alan Cretney, makes a good Particularly on one aspect that I have pushed forward recovery (Members: Hear, hear.) and is back into the force and it was agreed in this Court. There is a need, if you as soon as is possible. want to keep the traffic moving on the arterial roads in the morning rush hour and in the evening rush hour, a need Mr Shimmin: Mr President, I only intend to be brief. for a mobile traffic warden to book those people who stop It would be remiss after the last three and a half years of the traffic moving by thoughtlessness. You have only got working with the minister, the department and the previous to travel at any rush time period and see them stopping to and present Chief Constable, not to express my admiration pick up their boyfriends or girlfriends and the whole bus for the serving officers of the Isle of Man Constabulary, system comes to a standstill and the rest of the traffic is both the full-time and the specials. It has been a privilege held up behind it. If those people are shown, unfortunately to work with them. As with many of the public sector through a fine, that that is not on, the system will cure professional bodies, they have been under such scrutiny itself and I believe the answer to that is a mobile traffic of reviews, reorganisation and evaluation for such a length warden. of time now, it is quite remarkable the enthusiasm that But I do thank the police through the minister for all many of the officers still show on a daily basis. I would the courtesy they have shown and the help they have given add my admiration to all the comments previously said and certainly, as far as I am concerned, they have not felt and those that hopefully will be forthcoming. my collar recently, which I much appreciate. Politically, at the last general election the police and law and order became a football and I think the present Mrs Hannan: Eaghtyrane, I cannot agree with the • minister and the police officers have worked hard in order previous member that we have got policing on the cheap to try and show that they are working for the community. because I believe we have put a lot more finances, a lot The new Chief Constable, in everything that he does, puts more personnel and a lot more civilians into the police the safety and the welfare of the community as being his force to police. Therefore I think if we do expect a higher most important plank from which everything will be built. level of policing and a higher level of consideration, then I I believe that he is making steps, the officers of the force think we should expect it. I also accept that they have had are determined to carry through the changes for the a lot to do in the last six months or so, there have been a lot betterment of the people of the Isle of Man, and I would of different activities going on which have placed a call on urge all members to be a little bit cautionary when they their time. However, every member of the constabulary make the cheap criticisms of the police service. Yes, has not been involved in that. Yes, policing has to go on in mistakes are made. It is now within a service where some areas. But I do not believe that we should be looking complaints will be looked at, acted upon and lessons learnt at policing. and if we can support the police service then I think we I do not believe that policing is the answer to law and will be doing a great credit to the people of the Island. order. I think there needs to be an awful lot of activity in very many places, including government, to secure more Mr Delaney: Mr President, just to put on record my activities for young people, to help and assist young people. appreciation, through the minister, to the inspector of They have many more attractions but that also does not constabularies who has given me so much time to look at bode well for them developing socially as they should and Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T953 therefore I think there needs to be this balance. Therefore to get his own men to work with him and he has certainly to have a policing report on various issues and saying we shown himself to be responsive to the public. So, so far so need to put more money and whatever at it, I do not believe good, and I readily pay regard to what he has achieved. that that is the problem. I believe we should be attacking With crime figures, I think you have to be very careful some of the issues community - wise in other ways. I am in reading crime figures. I am very conscious of the fact sure we can all see that there are facilities which are now that crime figures can be made to read differently according not available to our young people. Big estates have been to the methodology which you apply in putting them developed with no play facilities for young people, no together. support for them. You might say, 'Oh, yes, government is doing much more now than it ever was.' Yes, because it is Mr North: Whether it is in Hong Kong or not! filling the gap that other things have left. Where there were coffee bars and places like that, where there were dances, Mr Quine: No, not exactly. But the point that I wanted where there were picture houses, now these are not to make is this: I think perhaps a more meaningful measure, available locally and therefore I believe there is an awful rather than straight crime figures detected or not detected, lot that we in society can do, other than having more police is sometimes to look at whether, by the nature of the crime, officers. they were preventable. I think one of the important But saying that, I would just like to ask the Minister for measures in terms of the effectiveness of a police force is Home Affairs, with regard to discipline and complaints, it whether the crimes which are preventable - and they are says that one officer who allegedly committed an offence quite easily identified - are increasing or whether they are of criminal damage retired from the force on medical decreasing. Because quite frankly there are many crimes grounds, preventing internal proceedings being completed. in those statistics and it does not matter whether you have One further officer, who was convicted of a criminal got one policeman on the street or 50 policemen on the offence in 1998, retired from the force on medical grounds street, you are not going to make any difference (A during this statistical year - again preventing internal Member: Hear, hear.) because they are behind closed proceedings being completed. This is one area of concern doors, they are to do with domestic situations. So just to in other places and I wonder is there anything that the look at crime figures and say, 'We're up' or 'We're down' department and government can do about this. I am not - interesting as that is and important as that may be, from saying any action would have been taken, but obviously a presentational point of view - I think we have to look investigations were proceeding - and that is quite right - behind that and try to get a feel for the number of but could not be completed because the officers retired preventable offences that they are in fact detecting. from the force - and presumably they would retire from I also feel that there must be a limit - and I am not the force with, possibly, a golden handshake and a pension. suggesting that it has been reached, that is a matter for Some of the issues which would have been raised if the professional evaluation to the amount of resource that we investigation had been completed, obviously this was not can put into the police force. I think you have to come at it able to be completed and therefore action could not be from the other end and I would ask the minister to perhaps taken. I was wondering what the thinking is of the seek some assurance that we have taken the streamlining department regarding this issue. Thank you, Eaghtyrane. of enforcement procedures as far as we can - or we should - at this stage. Undoubtedly there are fixed penalty and The President: Again, hon. members, I think I have to other procedures which you can apply which are seek your advice. There are two further members who have appropriate to many of the so-called offences that are listed indicated they wish yet to speak and the minister to reply here, and the demand on police officers' time can be much - now three wish to speak. In that case, hon. members, I less if you can streamline that procedure. Because once had promised you a guillotine at half past seven. Do you you start an offence running that is going to go through wish to finish this debate? the courts, that is where your man-hours clock up and, if you can keep it away from that, then I think the men can Members: Yes. be more beneficially used. There are two further points I was going to ask - three The President: Can I ask then, hon. members, that if points really. I would ask the minister, is he satisfied that we continue, try not to be repetitive. Hon. member for Ayre. we have yet taken on board or whether we are happy with the degree of specialisation within this force? In a small Mr Cretney: Good start! (Laughter) force you can overspecialise because it becomes a very expensive exercise and although the men may be happy Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. In common with and from a command point of view, from an efficiency others I have been impressed by the changes which have point of view, having it in the hands of a few people that been effected to date. I think we have seen a period of specialise in one particular task has a decided plus in a time when there has been some new life breathed into the small force, that has to be traded off against the fact that force and I welcome that. I believe the Chief Constable, you could use that manpower for other purposes and although he has only been in office a very short time, only perhaps to better effect. less than a year, my personal observations and the feedback The other issue I think I would certainly like the new that I get indicate that he has shown quite excellent Chief Constable to look at is we did away with police cadets leadership. He has shown energy, he has shown the ability a number of years back now - 1986, if I remember right,

Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried T954 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 we took it off the statute book. It was taken off some time report has been produced and I hope received by the ago and I am not suggesting that we revert to police cadets members of the public outside. in the original role where we used to have them working in police stations alongside of the men. I think we have The President: And finally, the hon. member for gone beyond that stage now. But in the context of police Douglas North, Mr Henderson. cadets or, as some forces call them, police corps clubs, I believe that is worth looking at. Whether we can get the Mr Henderson: Thank you, Mr President. It is quite police through police corps clubs to create boy and girl interesting to contrast what we have here on our tables organisations where they can have activities and where today to the position 18 months ago, when it was they can have a relationship with the police force, because considerably different. There were some very serious issues that will pay dividends in future years. It may pay dividends that were causing problems at that time with the police in the context of these people wishing to become police force, management problems and other issues, and certainly officers - and recruiting police officers is not always an I was being inundated with constituents concerned that easy exercise, there are ups and downs in terms of your their concerns were not being taken too seriously. Today I recruitment. But, more importantly, I think if this can be have pleasure in backing up much of what is in this report properly organised you can get the younger people having and what other members have said. Certainly we have seen a better understanding and a better relationship with your such a big turn-around in relation to the Criminal Justice law enforcement bodies and I do think that that warrants a Act that has gone through with all its various elements, look at. It is certainly not a novel idea, it does operate in antisocial behaviour orders. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) other places. Now we have this document which shows the restructuring So as far as this report is concerned, I am really quite of the force and the tables and annexes at the back which happy with it. I think it is generally a good report and I am show the performance in some areas, which are good. I, sure I look forward to the Chief Constable continuing his too, have to congratulate the minister and the senior good work. management team for their restructuring of the force - and certainly in relation to B division, where North Douglas Mr Downie: Mr President, I will be brief. A lot of the has come off quite well and I am thankful for that. I also remarks made by the previous speaker are ones which I note the growth of CCTV is indicated in the report and I would like to be associated with. There is no doubt in my advocate that as an important element in the fight against mind that since the arrival of the new Chief Constable and crime and I hope that the department take that on seriously a greater awareness of community involvement, there has as they progress onwards and forwards, as they say. been a lot more support from the local residents and I think I would also like to note that this year, unlike last year, in general the morale within the police force itself has there is no table of sick leave and so on, which I would improved greatly. have liked to perhaps have seen. Perhaps next year we can One thing I am concerned at, and I know we are living see some sort of performance measurement in the back of in changing times but I never thought in my lifetime I would the police force report where we can see how the men are see police constables walking round the streets of Douglas performing in terms of sickness - or indeed have they done in the daylight wearing body armour. I accept that it is a a satisfaction survey with the men to see how they feel. requirement now but if there is a problem with assaults on Because I am quite conscious that while I am piling out all the police or if the Minister for Home Affairs feels that the applause and bouquets for all the good work that has some of the present legislation does need beefing up, I can gone on, this has undoubtedly been a time of huge change pledge him my support now because I think that anyone for all the ground troops, as I call them - the staff, the who raises his hand to a police officer, under any bobbies on the beat, the fellows that are on the sharp end. circumstances whatsoever, should be dealt with most Huge change, and I would like to know how they are coping severely - with that change, how they are coming to terms with it. Are the support systems in place for retraining, for Mr Houghton: So why did you not vote for the additional experience that is required? It would be nice, abolition of the birch, then? say next year, to come back to this hon. Court for the minister to show us a staff satisfaction survey or a bottom Mr Downie: In the past it was always considered a very - up appraisal where they have actually had a look at the serious offence but sadly now some of the incidents that management team. As I say, that is important - certainly in these people have to go to, the very fact that they have had the huge sweeping changes that have gone on now - and I to be issued with body armour which will withstand a knife am quite conscious of the staff on the ground and how blade - or in fact in some cases a bullet - to me gives me they are affected with this because they, at the end of the cause for great concern. And I do not think, with respect, day, are the folks who are providing the goods for our the way to address that is by issuing officers with CS gas aspirations in trying to help the public out there as we and pepper sprays and things like that. I think the progress our concerns. So without much further ado, Mr punishment has to fit the crime (Mr Gilbey: Hear, hear.) President, I am very supportive of the document. and I think that is the message that we have to get over. Other than that, I think the minister and the department Mr Braidwood: Mr President, very brief. I would like have worked exceptionally well and they should get a lot to congratulate the minister on the report as well. I do of credit for what they have done and the way that this believe the new Chief Constable has breathed fresh air

Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 T955

into the force. Just a couple of points I would like to raise. we have in the senior management - really, just this week. Before the reorganisation on 4th March there was a high We find ourselves in a position where the deputy has had presence of police officers which a lot of people some hospitalisation which will take, we think, up to four commented on. Since the reorganisation there have been months before he will be back in harness again, before he less, or seem to be less, officers walking the beat. Another will be back on duty in police headquarters. This has given point as well, and Mr Henderson touched on it, in Her us some extreme difficulty because ordinarily we would Majesty's Inspectorate report it showed a very high promote internally temporarily to cover that absence. But percentage of sick, I think it was 27 per cent, and I know we find ourselves in the situation where first of all one of the Chief Constable was endeavouring to try to lower this. the chief inspectors himself has just returned from a Does the minister know the percentage at the present time? prolonged period of sickness - in fact he only returned Because I think there was only one other force in the United yesterday and is only working part-time at the moment Kingdom that was higher than the Isle of Man force. and will be, I understand, for some little time to come. Another of the chief inspectors is leading the investigation The President: Minister to reply. into the Solway Harvester and, with what appears to be surfacing from that investigation, a great deal of his time Mr Bell: Thank you, Mr President. I will try and be as shortly is going to be spent off-Island dealing with quick as I can with the replies on this. First of all can I investigations stretching into the United Kingdom, so he thank, not only on my behalf but on the behalf of the Chief is going to be fully stretched. The only other chief inspector Constable, the comments of support which have come from we have available is one who has done extremely well but the Court today. I am sure it will be most welcome, not has come from sergeant to inspector to acting chief only with the chief and senior management but also with inspector, all within a period of 12 months and as a result those officers who are on the front line and who these days of his abilities is considerably overloaded as it is. do have quite a difficult job. It is very heartening to know This currently is the management team that we have to that at last they have a Tynwald which supports them deal with operationally and it is very difficult to find a completely, in contrast to what happened a few years ago position in that grouping which we could appoint as a when the police were likely to be as much under the firing temporary Deputy Chief Constable. We gave some line from politicians as they were from criminals on the considerable thought to this, hon. members, and we have streets. It is very heartening to see that turnaround and I decided that for a temporary period - probably no more do assure hon. members that it is recognised out on the than four months - we would like to appoint a secondee street and that the officers indeed are very sensitive to from the United Kingdom. We have been extremely political support which is offered to them, so I am sure fortunate. We approached the Lancashire police force, they they will be very grateful for the comments today. If I could answer first Mr Houghton, the hon. member responded extremely quickly, only at the end of last week, for North Douglas. Yes, the Willaston station is now and offered us one of their rising stars - I think is the best complete and will be opening for duty tomorrow with an description we could say - official opening shortly. (Mr Houghton: Hear, hear.) The comment he makes, though, about insurance on special Mr Quine: My age. constables - we are still looking at that. The Home Office itself is drawing up new guidelines for specials now and it Mr Bell: She is not quite your age. She is 35, she is does include insurance and we are doing our utmost to currently a chief inspector in Preston in the process of being keep in line with that and ensure that the specials are promoted to superintendent. She is on a fast-track covered in every bit as positive a way as the regular force. promotion programme in the Lancashire force because of We will be asking - and in fact the specials have been her abilities and we feel that, for a temporary period, it 1 k volunteering - more and more front line involvement and will be considerably beneficial to the Isle of Man police this is why we are providing them with body armour as force to bring someone in of that standing, to help us well as the regulars. They will have the same protection as continue with the day-to-day operation of the force but the regulars and we would wish to see them covered from also to help us with the modernisation which is taking place an insurance point of view in the same way. (Mr - because, coincidentally, the Lancashire force is roughly Houghton: Hear, hear.) I am very pleased at the response at about the same level, in developmental terms, in we have had from the public in terms of interest in the modernisation as we are. I know it is an unusual step but it specials. We are now up to scratch, to the 50 mark which is a radical step which I believe is the right one for the we had set ourselves, and we are now shortly to start a occasion, given all the various problems we have got there. new advertising campaign to increase that 50 to 60 or 70 This is, I would hasten to add, a temporary measure. The as the demand materialises. individual involved will be going back to her force again The hon. member for Rushen, Sir Miles Walker, again as soon as the temporary period is over, as soon as we can I thank him for his support. We have done our best to have our deputy back in operation. And, at whatever stage listen to Port Erin and all the problems they have got down in the future, should that vacancy become available, it will there and I am glad at last we have got the Port Erin police of course be open to Isle of Man officers to apply for in station finally sorted and built and I think providing a good the normal course of events. Nothing has changed. service to the public. As far as the succession planning the hon. member refers The point that the hon. member raises, which if I could to, that is foremost in our minds, not only for deputy but just take a moment to expand on, in relation to the crisis for a number of senior posts. I believe personally that the

Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried T956 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 11th JULY 2000 level of training which we offered our senior staff in the course, when these people are referred for a doctor's past has not been as good as it could have been and we are examination, we cannot really challenge the conclusion • now actively putting together programmes to ensure that given to us by the doctor. They are the professionals, we as many of our talented officers as possible have the cannot really override that, otherwise we are wide open appropriate level of training to qualify them for whatever again to possible other claims as well. But I can assure the jobs become available in the future. I fully take on the hon. member that we have tightened up considerably on point that the hon. member has made but I can assure him that area and we will continue to do so. it has had our close attention but, unfortunately, with all The hon. member for Ayre, Mr Quine, makes comment these situations it does take a little time for the programme about the preventability of crimes. There has actually been to work its way through. Training up the succession an analysis done of the crime figures. I have not got that planning can take a year or two, it is not going to happen figure to hand at the moment but it is a surprisingly large just in a month or two, and I just hope hon. members will percentage of crimes which the police believe were recognise the difficulties that we have had in this situation preventable and I think that is an area - in fact I know it is and bear with us during this transition period until we can an area - that the police are going to be concentrating on get it resolved. now over the next year or two, to educate the public as to It is in no way a reflection on the abilities of any of our what they can do to help themselves. We are seeing a senior management. We are totally satisfied with the quality growth in neighbourhood watch schemes, the crime of management we have there. It is just an unfortunate prevention panel does a good job and there will be other series of coincidences which have hit management at this measures coming along to support that. He is right when particular juncture and caused us this difficulty. I did he says there is a limit to the amount of resources available. instruct for a letter from the Chief Constable to go to all The streamlining of the arrest process is something which members to explain this. I am under the impression now does concern us. I am sure hon. members are aware that that some members have it and some members do not, so just one person on a Saturday night arrested on Douglas • I am not quite sure what has happened to that but there promenade can tie up three or four officers - or more - for will be an explanation on the way. But if members have really the rest of the night. We need to find some better any other concerns on that front, I would be more than way. Perhaps not exactly offering on-the-spot fines and willing to sit down and talk them through the position. taking them to cash machines, but I think we do need to be Finally on that I would just like to add my hope that Mr perhaps a bit more creative in the way we handle the arrest Cretney will be back to good health very shortly and will and it is something I would agree with. be back in office as quickly as possible. He asks if I am happy with the degree of specialisation Mr Shimmin, member for West Douglas, I thank him in the force. I think we are probably moving towards greater for his support again for the force and I would just like to specialisation, whether we want to or not, because some take this opportunity, if I could, to thank him, now that he of our criminals are becoming more specialist as well and has moved on to greater things, for his support in the more professional. But in the main we still have flexibility department and the hard work he has put in for the last within the force. We have the financial crimes unit which three and a half years. He has been a staunch ally during is ring-fenced. It has leaked once or twice just lately but that period, he has been extremely constructive in his that fence will be re-established very shortly and that is relationship with the department and I thank him sincerely one area we believe should be professionalised. It is such for that support. a sensitive area now, not only in terms of local policing Mr Delaney, the hon. member of the Council, again, I matters but towards our international reputation as well. know he has met with the HMI inspector. This offer was We have to make sure that this unit works effectively. The available to all members and if members still have any drug squad is the other one which has been ring-fenced. points at this late stage they would like to raise as part of We will see whether that needs to remain permanent or • the inspectorate, please let us know. whether it is something we can have some flexibility in The hon. member for Peel, Mrs Hannan, saying that the future on. His suggestion about police corps clubs, I policing is not cheap but police alone is not the answer to have to say I had not thought of before but it is something the law and order problem, I agree with her entirely, 100 that I am more than happy to sit down and talk to him per cent, and I think this is one area where we are still about and see in fact whether there is any merit to explore lacking in government. We do not have joined-up that any further. government when we are providing resources for young The hon. member for West Douglas, Mr Downie, people, either in terms of recreational facilities or indeed comments on the regrettable situation of police wearing for support facilities, through social services, for vulnerable body armour in Douglas. I totally agree with him, I think families and young people. I think this is an area we still it is a very regrettable reflection - on Douglas, yes, but on have to polish up our act on and if we can do that at the our community generally. But I do believe the department younger end, it will certainly save my department and the has an absolute role to play in protecting our officers when criminal justice system a considerable amount of money they are on the street, to give them the confidence that we at the other end, so I totally support her views on that. Her are providing the resources to back them up, that they are comments, also, about people retiring on medical grounds not out there alone. And, like it or not, at times things are and avoiding discipline et cetera is again something we very difficult on the streets, particularly at weekends, and have addressed with some urgency in the department, I we need to make sure that they are properly protected. share her concern on that. One of the difficulties is, of The hon. member talks about beefing up legislation. I can Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried • TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 1 1 th JULY 2000 T957

assure him that if we find any loopholes where legislation Hon. members, I thank you for your co-operation today. needs to be tightened to protect the force, we will certainly We will commence tomorrow morning at 10.30 with the do that. He also comments on CS gas. That debate is still item 31 on the order paper. We now adjourn, hon. members, going on, there is no decision being taken on that at the till 10.30. Thank you. moment. It is something which there are mixed views on, whether we should pursue it. That will come to the Council The Court adjourned at 8.00 p.m. of Ministers in the next few months and we will be able to talk about that then. The hon. member for North Douglas, Mr Henderson, comments - and indeed the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr Braidwood, the same point - about the table of sick leave and the problem we had in the HMI report last year on the very high level of sickness. I do not have the current figures with me but, I can assure both hon. members, we have taken immediate measures following the receipt of that report, we have put schemes in place which are reducing the level of sickness quite dramatically from those previous levels. I cannot quote you just at the moment what those figures are but they are well down. We are now, I think, starting to see the benefit of establishing the human resources division within the force which is providing welfare support, support across the whole range of issues, and I think the benefit of that now is working its way through and we will be seeing some tangible benefits on the street. The only other point that I think is worth commenting on, the hon. member for East Douglas said there seem to be less officers on the beat at moment from the high of a few months ago when we started the high visibility policing. There are two issues there. It could well be the case, on occasions, that there are fewer people around. That has largely been brought about by this coincidence of four major incidents all coming together at the same time and some of the officers, on occasions, have had to be withdrawn from front-line patrolling back into the centre to help with some of the enquiries which have been taking place. But I would also say we have had a vigorous period of recruitment over the last few months and we currently have 17 in training in Bruche across and they are due back on the Island at the end of August, early September, and all of those will be back on the streets shortly afterwards. So although there may be some diminution at the moment, I hope certainly by the end of the summer you will be seeing patrolling levels back up to the level they were before. Mr President, I thank hon. members for allowing me to finish the debate tonight. I do believe it is an important one. It is certainly one which is helpful to me and the police force, to know how members are currently viewing our policies and the police performance, and I would simply just thank all hon. members for their contribution and look forward to their continued support for the police service. Thank you.

The President: Hon. members, the motion is printed at 32 that the Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 be received. Those in favour please say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Isle of Man Constabulary Annual Report 1999/2000 — Motion Carried