T Y N W A L D C O U R T O F F I C I A L R E P O R T

R E C O R T Y S O I K O I L Q U A I Y L T I N V A A L

P R O C E E D I N G S

D A A L T Y N

HANSARD

Douglas, Tuesday, 18th May 2021

All published Official Reports can be found on the Tynwald website:

www.tynwald.org.im/business/hansard

Supplementary material provided subsequent to a sitting is also published to the website as a Hansard Appendix. Reports, maps and other documents referred to in the course of debates may be consulted on application to the Tynwald Library or the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.

Volume 138, No. 22

ISSN 1742-2256

Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2021 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Present:

The President of Tynwald (Hon. S C Rodan OBE)

In the Council: The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man (The Rt Rev. P A Eagles), The Attorney General (Mr J L M Quinn QC), Mr P Greenhill, Mr R W Henderson, Mrs K A Lord-Brennan, Mrs M M Maska, Mr R J Mercer, Mrs J P Poole-Wilson and Mrs K Sharpe with Mr J D C King, Deputy Clerk of Tynwald.

In the Keys: The Speaker (Hon. J P Watterson) (Rushen); The Chief Minister (Hon. R H Quayle) (Middle); Mr J R Moorhouse and Hon. G D Cregeen (Arbory, Castletown and Malew); Hon. A L Cannan and Hon. T S Baker (Ayre and Michael); Mr C C Thomas and Mrs C A Corlett (Douglas Central); Mrs C L Barber and Mr C R Robertshaw (Douglas East); Hon. D J Ashford MBE and Mr G R Peake (Douglas North); Mrs C S B Christian and Mr S P Quine (Douglas South); Mr M J Perkins and Mrs D H P Caine (Garff); Hon. R K Harmer and Hon. G G Boot (Glenfaba and Peel); Mr W C Shimmins (Middle); Mr R E Callister and Ms J M Edge (Onchan); Mr L L Hooper (Ramsey); Hon. L D Skelly (Rushen); with Mr R I S Phillips, Clerk of Tynwald.

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Business transacted

Leave of absence granted ...... 2067 Tribute to His Honour Deemster William Cain CBE QC TH ...... 2067 Procedural – Items 24-25 and Item 3 of Supplementary Order Paper No. 1 to be taken on Wednesday morning ...... 2068 Order of the Day ...... 2068 1. Papers laid before the Court ...... 2068 Motion of Urgent Public Importance ...... 2071 Residential elderly care in the west – Acquiring Corrin Memorial Home and future provision – Debate commenced ...... 2071 Bill for signature ...... 2084 Residential elderly care in the west – Acquiring Corrin Memorial Home and future provision – Debate continued – Amended motion carried ...... 2084 Question of Urgent Public Importance ...... 2097 COVID-19 vaccines for over-50s – Reducing dose intervals ...... 2097 Questions for Oral Answer ...... 2100 1. Vehicle engines idling – Prohibition ...... 2100 2. Steam Packet Company review– Audit Advisory report...... 2102 3. Public Health Act COVID-19 powers – CoMin retention after 25th June 2021...... 2103 The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.31 p.m...... 2107 4. Telephone calls to Treasury – Calls recorded; time kept for ...... 2107 5. Businesses owing Government debts – Number refused financial support during lockdowns ...... 2108 6. Breathing space scheme for debt – Plans to introduce...... 2108 Question 7 to be answered in writing ...... 2110 8. Telecommunications mast planning applications – Relevant non-planning considerations...... 2110 9. Latest inflation report – Transport data ...... 2111 10. Hall Caine Creative Writing Competition – Return or replacement ...... 2112 11. School meals vouchers – TT week and summer holidays ...... 2115 12. Planning applications with landscaping – Encouraging native tree and shrub use ..... 2118 13. Telecommunications mast planning applications – Assessing strategic national need ...... 2119 14. IoM climate change targets – Comparison with UK 2035 target ...... 2122 15. Full-time hospital consultants’ pay 2021 – Comparison with UK; results of job re- evaluations ...... 2124

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16.-17. Corrin Memorial Home and care provision in west – Questions not asked ...... 2128 18. Heating systems in publicly owned buildings – Limiting use ...... 2128 19. Bus Vannin’s demand-responsive public transport – Outcome of RTLC meeting with Ministers ...... 2130 20. Recycling and waste management – Plans for Island-wide approach ...... 2132 21. ARUP review of Laxey flood – Progress on recommendations ...... 2135 22. Agri-Environment Scheme – Estimates of claims; comparison with previous scheme...... 2138 Question 23 to be answered in writing ...... 2139 24. Corrin Memorial Home closure – Question not asked ...... 2140 25. Care homes and social care – Role of charitable companies ...... 2140 26. Family visits in care settings – Ensuring when no lockdown ...... 2141 27. No fault divorces – When available ...... 2143 28. Bus route changes – Policies and impact assessments used ...... 2145 29. Water pipes in Garff – Number burst in last five years; replacement plans ...... 2148 30. Electricity key meter top-ups – Arrangements for those without online access ...... 2149 31. Post Office counter banking services – Number of outlets; banks involved...... 2152 Questions for Written Answer ...... 2156 7. Area Plan for the North and West – Publicity and engagement before 25th June 2021 ...... 2156 23. Manx wheat harvest – Meeting demand for Manx flour ...... 2156 32. Business cases to Treasury/CoMin – Inclusion of climate change targets...... 2157 33. Telecommunications development – Review of where permitted; Strategic Plan Infrastructure Policy 3 ...... 2158 34. Tynwald resolution on charity banking – Treasury action taken ...... 2159 35. Bona Vacantia fund – Publishing successful business cases and award process ...... 2159 36. Climate change targets – Incentives and application to 2022 Budget process ...... 2160 37. Accounting For Sustainability Chief Financial Officer Net Zero Statement of Support – Treasury plans to sign ...... 2160 38. Tendering process – Applying climate change outcomes ...... 2160 39. Government’s investment mandates – Applying climate change outcomes ...... 2161 40. Taskforce on Climate-related Financial Disclosures recommendations – Annual reporting on Government performance ...... 2161 41. Treasury issued summonses – Details during and after each lockdown ...... 2162 42. Road transport licensing income and expenditure – Source and changes over time .. 2162 43. Road Transport Licensing Committee – Budget submissions since September 2016 .. 2164 44. Nursing and residential homes charges – Treasury policy on equity; value of charge over properties ...... 2164 45. Area Plan for the North and West – Key dates and milestones ...... 2164

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46. Construction Isle of Man – Membership, categories and contributions received 2020 and 2021 ...... 2165 47. School uniform policy – Affordability and fairness ...... 2166 48. Manx mountain hares – Protected species status ...... 2166 49. Manx mountain hare and lowland brown hare – Population decline ...... 2167 50. Telecommunications masts, lampposts, etc. – Law and policy for conservation areas/registered buildings ...... 2168 51. Registered food businesses – Publishing list on Government website ...... 2169 52. Registered animal boarding establishments – Publishing list on Government website ...... 2169 53. Road Transport Licensing Committee – Applications awaiting approval ...... 2170 54. Full-time hospital consultants in 2020-21 – Numbers by pay range ...... 2171 55. Public defibrillators – Listing, mapping and publicising locations ...... 2171 56. DoI Highways schemes – Budget submissions for last three years ...... 2172 57. Burroughs Stewart project management team – Promenade site visits since January 2020 ...... 2173 58. Burroughs Stewart project management team – Role in delay to southern tram track section ...... 2174 59. Planning application 20/01538/B – Installing telecoms equipment in lampposts...... 2174 60. Road transport licensing costs – Fees for public passenger and goods vehicles; DoI policies ...... 2175 61. Road Transport Licensing Committee – Arrangements in place with DoI, DEFA and Treasury ...... 2175 62. Bus timetable changes – Engagement with local communities; publicising ...... 2176 Order of the Day ...... 2177 3. Economic Recovery Programme – Statement by the Treasury Minister ...... 2177 4. Regulatory Review – Statement by the Minister for Policy and Reform ...... 2180 5. Isle of Man Post Office – Statement by the Chairman – Item commenced ...... 2183 The Court adjourned at 5.25 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.56 p.m...... 2186 Personal statement by Mr Thomas – Point of clarification ...... 2187 5. Isle of Man Post Office – Statement by the Chairman – Item concluded ...... 2187 6. Tynwald Auditor General – Selection Committee – Report noted and recommendation approved ...... 2188 7. Charities Act 1986 – Charities Act 1986 (Specified Sums) Order 2021 approved ...... 2189 8. Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019 – Charities (Exemption) Regulations 2021 approved...... 2191 9. Elections (Keys and Local Authorities) Act 2020 – Elections (Keys) (Election Expenses) Regulations 2021 approved...... 2192 10. Building Control Act 1991 – Building Control (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 approved ...... 2194 Announcement of Royal Assent – International Maritime Standards Act 2021...... 2195

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11. Food Act 1996 – Food Hygiene Ratings Regulations 2021 – Not moved ...... 2195 12. Customs and Excise Management Act 1986/Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2021 approved ...... 2195 13. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) Order 2021 approved ...... 2196 14. Pension Schemes Act 1995 – Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 2021 approved ...... 2197 15. Pension Schemes Act 1995 – Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved...... 2198 16. Social Security Act 2000 – Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2021 approved ...... 2198 17.-18. Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 – Members of Tynwald (Annual Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved; Members of Tynwald (Annual Sums) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved...... 2199 19. Armed Schooner ‘Peggy’ – Return to Castletown – Motion carried ...... 2200 20. Red call boxes – Repurposing and alternative support mechanisms – Motion carried ...... 2217 The Court adjourned at 8.01 p.m...... 2223

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Tynwald

The Court met at 10.30 a.m.

[MR PRESIDENT in the Chair]

The Deputy Clerk: Hon. Members, please rise for the President of Tynwald.

The President: Moghrey mie, good morning, Hon. Members.

5 Members: Moghrey mie, Mr President.

The President: The Lord Bishop will lead us in prayer.

PRAYERS The Lord Bishop

Leave of absence granted

The President: Hon. Members, please feel free to remove jackets. Hon. Members, I have given leave of absence to Hon. Member for Ramsey, Dr Allinson; Hon. 10 Member of Council, Miss August-Hanson; and the Chief Minister for the start of the sitting tomorrow.

Tribute to His Honour Deemster William Cain CBE QC TH

The President: Hon. Members, it was with much sorrow that we have learnt of the passing of His Honour William Cain CBE. The son of former Second Deemster James Arthur Cain, Thomas William Cain was born in Peel in 1935. He was educated at Marlborough College and Worcester 15 College, Oxford, and after two years of National Service, he was called to the Bar at Gray’s Inn in 1959 and admitted to the Manx Bar in 1961. William Cain then worked for the law firm founded by his grandfather, T W Cain and Sons, until 1980, when he was appointed as Her Majesty’s Attorney General for the Isle of Man, and as such a Member of this Hon. Court. This was a period of major constitutional and political reform in the Isle of Man, with the 20 introduction of a Council of Ministers, the expansion of Manx territorial waters, proper regulation of the Isle of Man financial services sector, and long overdue updating of social legislation. William Cain was directly involved with all of this. He held the position of Attorney General until 1993, when he was made Second Deemster, and he served as First Deemster from January 1998 to 2002, when he retired. William Cain was 25 awarded the Tynwald Honour in 2011, based on his national and international work, and in the

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case of the Isle of Man, he was highly respected for his knowledge of, and articles on, constitutional reform, with his major contribution being the digitisation of Manx legislation. As Honorary Chairman of the Isle of Man branch of the United Nations Association, he promoted and strengthened relations with other nations. He also made a significant contribution 30 to wildlife conservation, both in the Isle of Man and further afield. He was a founder member of the Manx Wildlife Trust and acted as its chairman for 36 years until his retirement in 2010. He was instrumental in the introduction of the 1990 Manx Wildlife Act, which established the principles of protecting many listed species of animals and plants. Speaking personally, I knew William Cain for over 30 years and, as is the common opinion, he 35 was an absolute gentleman and a Manxman of the highest integrity. The condolences of Tynwald Court go to his wife Felicity and family. Hon. Members, would you rise for a moment in silent tribute to Thomas William Cain, CBE QC Tynwald Honour.

Members stood in silence.

The President: Thank you, Hon. Members.

Procedural – Items 24-25 and Item 3 of Supplementary Order Paper No. 1 to be taken on Wednesday morning

40 The President: Hon. Members, with the leave of the Court, I intend to take the General Debate in the name of Mr Cregeen on myalgic encephalomyelitis, Item 25, and the related Item 24, as well as the Emergency Advisory Group appointments, which is Item 3 on the Supplementary Order Paper No. 1, as first Item of business on Wednesday morning, tomorrow. The Hon. Member has an appointment off Island on Thursday. 45 Is the Court content? (Members: Agreed.) Agreed. Thank you.

Order of the Day

1. Papers laid before the Court

The President: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.

The Clerk: Ta mee cur roish y Whaiyl ny pabyryn enmyssit ayns ayrn nane jeh’n Chlaare Obbyr. I lay before the Court the papers listed at Item 1 of the Order Paper.

Charities Act 1986 Charities Act 1986 (Specified Sums) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0129] [MEMO]

Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019 Charities (Exemption) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0130] [MEMO]

Elections (Keys and Local Authorities) Act 2020 Elections (Keys) (Election Expenses) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0152] [MEMO]

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Building Control Act 1991 Building Control (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0111] [MEMO]

Food Act 1996 Food Hygiene Ratings Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0087] [MEMO]

Customs and Excise Management Act 1986/ Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0123] [MEMO]

Social Security Act 2000 Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0134] [MEMO] Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0136] [MEMO]

Pension Schemes Act 1995 Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0135] [MEMO] Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0137] [MEMO]

Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 Members of Tynwald (Annual Sums) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0140] [MEMO] Members of Tynwald (Annual Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0139] [MEMO]

Report

Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts Second Report for the Session 2020-21: Tynwald Auditor General Governance Proposal [PP No 2021/0115]

The remaining items are not the subject of motions or debates on the Order Paper

Items subject to negative resolution

Taxation (Cross-border Trade) Act 2018 Customs (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0125] [MEMO]

Value Added Tax Act 1996 Value Added Tax (Section 55A) (Specified Goods and Services and Expected Supplies) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0145] [MEMO]

Fisheries Act 2012 Sea-Fisheries (Lobster and Crab) (Recreational Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0120] [MEMO] Sea-Fisheries (Technical Measures) (Amendment) Regulation 2021 [SD No 2021/0121] [MEMO]

Documents subject to no procedure

Burials Act 1986 Burial Grounds (Maximum Rate) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0142] [MEMO] 50 Currency Act 1992

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Currency (Queen Elizabeth II’s 95th Birthday Collection) 50 Pence Coin Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0055] Currency (Remembrance Day 2021) £2 Coin Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0056]

Insurance Act 2008 Insurance (Conduct of Business) (Long Term Business) Code 2021 [SD No 2021/0133] [MEMO]

Dogs Act 1990 Onchan Dog Control Byelaws 2021 [SD No 2021/0064] [MEMO]

Reports

Consultation on the concepts and approach proposed in the Report of the Council of Ministers on the established of an Isle of Man Regulatory Authority [GD No 2021/0029]

Laxey Glen Mills Limited Annual Report 31st March 2020 [GD No 2021/0027]

Isle of Man Meat Company Limited Directors’ Report and Financial Statements for the year ended 31st March 2020 [GD No 2021/0028]

Isle of Man Government Accounts 2019-20 [GD No 2021/0025]

Second Report of the Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee for the Session 2019-20: Douglas Promenade Scheme Second Interim Report - Volume 2 [PP No 2020/0133(2)]

Standing Committee of Tynwald on Public Accounts Third Report for the Session 2020-21: Audit Advisory Division [PP No 2021/0099]

Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee First Report for the Session 2020-21: The Regulation of the Safety and Quality of Cow’s Milk [PP No 2021/0100]

Environment and Infrastructure Policy Review Committee Second Report for the Session 2020-21: Douglas Promenade Scheme – Final Report [PP No 2021/0101]

Select Committee of Tynwald on Poverty First Report for the Session 2020-21: Income and Benefits [PP No 2021/0105]

Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee Second Report for the Session 2020-21: Adverse Possession [PP No 2021/0106]

Constitutional and Legal Affairs and Justice Committee Third Report for the Session 2020-21: Role of the Attorney General [PP No 2021/0107]

Standing Orders of Tynwald Court – Revised Edition April 2021 [PP No 2021/0024]

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Motion of Urgent Public Importance

Residential elderly care in the west – Acquiring Corrin Memorial Home and future provision – Debate commenced

The Hon. Member for Council (Mrs Lord-Brennan) to move:

That Tynwald is of the opinion that: (1) in the event of any closure of the Corrin Memorial Home, best practice must be followed, in that a full six months’ notice should be given; (2) the Trustees and Directors of the Corrin Home companies and connected charities, in pursuing compliance with the spirit of intent of the Memorandum of Association of Corrin Holdings, should do so in the most open and transparent manner possible; (3) the Department of Health and Social Care, in association with Manx Care where appropriate, should develop a clear strategy for the future provision of residential elderly care in the West, prior to any closure of the Corrin Home; and (4) the Department of Health and Social Care should secure the Corrin Home property, land and curtilage for the future provision of residential care in the West of the Island.

The President: Hon. Members, the Hon. Member of Council Mrs Lord-Brennan has given me written notice of an urgent motion in the following terms:

That Tynwald is of the opinion that: (1) in the event of any closure of the Corrin Memorial Home, best practice must be followed, in that a full six months’ notice should be given; (2) the Trustees and Directors of the Corrin Home companies and connected charities, in pursuing compliance with the spirit of intent of the Memorandum of Association of Corrin Holdings, should do so in the most open and transparent manner possible; (3) the Department of Health and Social Care, in association with Manx Care where appropriate, should develop a clear strategy for the future provision of residential elderly care in the West, prior to any closure of the Corrin Home; and (4) the Department of Health and Social Care should secure the Corrin Home property, land and curtilage for the future provision of residential care in the West of the Island.

Under Standing Order 2.8, I first need to know if Mrs Lord-Brennan has the support of at least 55 four other Members. No amendment or debate is allowed at this stage. Hon. Members, if you would like to support Mrs Lord-Brennan in having this motion debated, please rise. Thank you, Hon. Members. It appears that Mrs Lord-Brennan does have sufficient support to allow me to move to the next stage. Does the Court give leave for the motion to be debated? (Members: Agreed.) Those in favour, 60 say aye; against, no. Consent having been given, I now call Mrs Lord-Brennan to move the motion in her name.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank very much all Members of this Court for providing their support to discuss this and debate this important topic today. 65 It is indeed urgent, it is indeed important, and it does also have national implications, I would say, because it is not just about the Corrin Memorial Home, but it is about how actually we now deal with the provision of residential care, and it is this very issue, this pressing issue, that has put into the spotlight all the issues which we are going to have to deal with soon. I feel like there are some Members in this Court who are much more familiar with the 70 background of Corrin Home and some of the issues at play. I certainly have spent hours and hours,

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and feels like days, talking to many people around this whole entire issue, but I feel that in order to give a fuller context, as best as I can, before talking about the specific motion, it would be right to explain some of the background, some of the issues and why perhaps, both sides, if you like, find themselves in a bit of a bind. 75 The thing to keep in mind, though, at the top of all this, is that the reason why this is urgent is because it is being made urgent by a timeline. And actually, Tynwald Court itself, as well as Government having a responsibility towards the provision of adult social care and showing that they can do the right thing and step in where appropriate, it is the case that Tynwald Court has in the past been responsible for the regulations around the notice period which has specifically been 80 given, but I would ask you to question whether this is in line, actually, with what you would do and how you would handle indeed best practice if there is a need to step in or if there is a need to commission a service in any other way. But beyond all of that too, I would say that Tynwald Court is the only body that can broker a proper solution to this now and it is the duty that only we can bring to bear, whether that is by 85 influence or helping draw out the things that need to happen and getting Government to come forward with a bigger plan. But to get to the issue of the Home and the site and the structures and the charities that are involved, Members have been made aware that the Corrin Home company has faced financial issues, and I think that that has been brought to Members’ attention. In the background there to that company, there is also a holding company and there are 90 various charities related to that whole set up, which is important to know because they date back to 1905 for some of them. So what we are seeing here is something about a social and charitable endeavour that has supported residential care in one way or another in the west for a long period of time in the community, with close ties, without there being any other alternative of provision by Government, which is quite unlike other parts of the Island. Indeed, at a public meeting last 95 night, the question was raised, ʻWell, how much funding has the west had for residential care?’, for example, in the past two administrations. So the reason this is relevant is because we have had a good thing happen in Peel and the west for a long time, but it is now all at stake, because, in my view, not just because of financial matters, but it sounds to me like the model needs to be updated. 100 Now, the land itself is where the doctors’ premises are on, the Western Wellbeing Centre, which is supposed to be the hub of the Integrated Care Project also on the same site, but it is the building as it relates to the Corrin Memorial Home for the provision of residential care that matters here. All of these matters have come to a head over the past few weeks and I think it has shocked the community and it has proven very difficult for Government to act because of the short 105 timeframe. But in the mix of all this of course, it is the people that matter, because you have 21 residents who are, most of them, in their 90s, and the idea of expecting them to move because of a closure, which is happening at the shortest possible notice, in fact really that could have been given, with lots of questions around all of this, a lack of information which makes it pretty much impossible 110 for Government or anybody else to come forward with a proper solution for a new model going forward. And I do say ‘anybody else’ because certainly in the public meeting last night, where I think about 130 people attended, the sorts of questions that the public were raising were, ‘If we’d have known sooner or had more time to act, then we ourselves would have been willing to help, we 115 would have been willing to get involved’, and there was a general frustration that something that had served so well was now going to flounder and not even come to any sort of way to help these people, who I am very concerned about. Will people of that age, will they survive being relocated? That is the serious question. (Mr Henderson: Exactly right …) Will they survive that, and where is Government’s obligation in all of this? 120 Connected to all of this is that you have 40 staff that have been trying their best to advocate for the cause, in the absence of leadership coming from other areas, and they are people that will

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be affected too, but I have no doubt in my mind that they have had the best interests of the residents that are living there. Furthermore, you have got families who have felt that the whole situation has just been 125 handled badly. There has been poor communication, people saying one thing and then hearing another, things happening behind closed doors. So this has to be something where Tynwald is in a position to be able to influence and step in and DHSC ought to be able to, rather than just put their hands up and not do anything, they need to be able to shape things up for the future, because I think it is an expectation for that entire site that there ought to be a longer-term plan. 130 But any longer-term plan should not be at the sake of just saying to those people, ‘Sorry, we can’t help you, you have to go.’ It is just simply not acceptable in the absence of any other residential care in the west. The reason why I have mentioned the Memorandum of Association is because it provides some context as to what the purpose of the charity has been for a long time and the part I would point 135 to would be that the charitable objectives of the holding company is:

the provision of relief to elderly, infirm and needy persons suffering financial hardship who are resident in the Isle of Man, including, but not limited to, the provision of residential accommodation and care and other facilities ancillary and incidental thereto

The point of raising this is because even though we have not had sufficient answers from either side as to what can happen to sort things out, the fact is the obligation remains. The obligation is there on the part of the trustees, in terms of the assets they hold and the responsibilities they have, and also the obligation is there on behalf of Government because it is, after all, Government 140 who need to take responsibility for adult social care, rather than leave people floundering. So turning to the motion, it is hard for me to bear out in words all the things that were said at the public meeting last night, with the deep concern that was there. So I have had to put this in a way that I hope that Tynwald will be able to act on, because it is very difficult for Tynwald to simply direct, ‘You must not close’, but I want to relay to this Court that certainly the will of the people 145 in that public meeting last night was that there should simply be a moratorium on the closure and that there needed to be an independent review on the basis to think of some kind of strategic needs analysis for the future. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Actually, those two ideas are absolutely spot on, but Tynwald in itself is in as much of a bind as Government and the trustees, because we cannot simply direct, ‘No, sorry, directors, you must not close the Home.’ We cannot do that. They 150 followed the R and I process, so have the Department. However, we have to look at this through the point of best practice. If we were seriously thinking that the idea, if anybody can think the idea of three months’ closure is enough to move people out or find other solutions, we are just frankly living on another planet. I think today, if those regulations came to us, where we said three months’ notice of closure, this Court, we would 155 question it, and we would say, well, what if there was a need to step in? What if there was a need to come up with some other model? What if there was not a way to place people in a suitable way because the reality is with that deadline this whole situation will fail, and without a longer-term plan, the lives and the livelihoods of those people are absolutely at risk. That is going to reflect badly on Government and badly on this Court if there is not something brought forward. 160 So this is why at (1) I have said that:

in the event of any closure of the Corrin Memorial Home, best practice must be followed, in that a full six months’ notice should be given

Now, I think that if there is acceptance of that, it is really a call to Government to say we see that you are in a bind and actually we need to try, for the staff, the residents and their families, to provide a period of six months in order to deal with this and assist, and that, we recognise, is best practice. And on the side of the trustees, I hope that it would help compel them to realise that

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165 actually there is a will to help and that they should also collaborate and come together to help move forward with options, because, like I say, everything is in a bind at the moment. Now, I have tried to have a little look about best practice and managing care homes and things like that, because I am really not sure what policy we are basing any of this now in terms of intervention. In fact, there has been some really concerning language around all this that has been 170 put about. Words like ‘breakdown procedure’ and ‘repatriation’ – we love that one, too. These are cold terms, and the way this whole matter is being handled is turning it from something that is about people’s lives and wellbeing to something very transactional. So I would just put it to this Court, we cannot stand by, we cannot just accept the limitations that we keep hearing that are being repeated all the time, ‘We can’t do that for the X, Y and Z’, 175 ‘Oh, we can’t because it’s a private company’, ‘Oh, we can’t because of a notice period’, ‘Oh, we can’t, because actually there’s something wrong with the building.’ Is there anything wrong with the building? That is what I would like to know. Really? R and I reports have come back broadly fine. People have stood up in that meeting last night and said, ‘My mother is happy and she is safe and she is well looked after, and if you want me to go in and paint the room and make things a 180 little bit prettier, then we will.’ The community said they will help. So the idea we are looking at this really blanket way without any long-term plan for the west or anywhere else to do with residential care, it is just not acceptable. But if you were to look for best practice of managing care homes’ closures, certainly not clear to me in all the things that I have heard that this is the case. I am not saying people have not complied, but it is absolutely not 185 what ‘good’ should look like, either in the short term or the long term. So this motion is fundamentally based on: the key parties should do what they ought to do. This is what it is based on. So that is why best practice, six months’ notice; that is what we should be doing for the staff and the residents. Actually, frankly, at this stage, I do not really care how it comes about. People just need to work on that basis and get together. 190 The second point: trustees and directors and connected charities should comply in the spirit of the intent of the Memorandum of Association, in that they should provide open and transparent information. This has been a sticking point. I recognise this is a sticking point for Government at the moment. That is why I am simply not saying chuck a load of money at this, sort it out. It needs way more thought than that, and actually Government is in a tricky situation, because how can 195 there be any meaningful Government intervention, or even assessment of the situation, without having full information as to the financial status, the background to how the Home has got to where they are? That should in theory be a straightforward one to support, because why would anybody not want openness and transparency about what the background is and potentially the future with the Home? What are they going to do with the site? How have they got to this 200 situation? How can it be resolved? And actually, at the meeting last night there was a commitment given that that information would be made available. But again, sticking points completely the time. To get to the third point about, ‘a clear strategy for the future provision of residential elderly care in the west, prior to any closure’. We cannot deal with these things in isolation. It is just not 205 possible. It is long overdue to have a new plan and structure for how care homes are operated in terms of their operating structure, in terms of their funding, but we are in a horrible situation right now where we cannot deal with it fully in this administration. Hence the need for more time. And actually, because the west has been so underprovided for in terms of residential care compared to the rest of the Island, it ought to be the west that is first and next in that. You could say, ‘Of 210 course, she would say that, wouldn’t she?’ – maybe other people in this Court would too. But the point is you cannot just look at this in isolation. The purpose of the site is not going to go away and the needs of the residents are not going to go away either. So it should be developed prior to any closure. We need to bridge this gap. Finally, at (4):

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the Department of Health and Social Care should secure the Corrin Home property, land and curtilage for the future provision of residential care in the West of the Island.

215 That might sound like quite a big statement to make. However, I believe that these conversations are going on anyway. So I would say, in the interest of openness, real strategic thinking, bringing everything above board and public so that the community can know what is happening, and it can be worked in with a plan. Let’s say this should happen. Let’s help the trustees, the charity, but let’s do it in an open way. Let’s not have these conversations going on behind closed doors, while 220 people wring their hands and say, on the one hand, we will do anything to help, we will do everything we can, and then stand there and say, actually, we cannot help because they have not done X. It is just completely not acceptable. So I would just ask you, Hon. Members, to please support this, because if you imagine the looks on the faces of the people who are living there, who are absolutely distraught, are worried about 225 where they are going to go, and are saying some very scary things because they are afraid. And if you think about how much energy has had to be given by the staff and what will happen to them having to play that part in moving those people out of what they consider to be their home and their community, and then think also about the fact that one way or another this is going to have to be dealt with. It is not going to go away and it will cost Government one way or another. But to 230 even start to have those conversations, it is on this Court to fulfil its duty and push for what ought to happen. In this case, in my view, it is these four things. So I hope I have provided sufficient information and I thank everybody again. But please think of the people in this situation. Do not get drawn in to this being dealt with in a transactional, cold- hearted way. 235 Thank you, Mr President.

Several Members: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas. 240 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw.

245 Mr Robertshaw: Thank you, Mr President. I commend the Member for LegCo for standing up for the people of Peel and the west. It is the right motion. I will have no hesitancy at all in supporting it. It is at the right time and it has the right degree of urgency. It is appropriate that the Hon. Member of Council should react in the extremely constructive 250 way that she has, and she speaks about people in Peel and the west, but this is a matter for all of us here in this Hon. Court and the degree of support that this motion got in the initial stages indicated to me that we all understand that this is not just about Peel. This is about elderly care right across the Island. Today it is Peel and the west, tomorrow it could be your constituency. This matter concerns us all. 255 So the motion reacts specifically to the circumstances in Peel, but there is something deeper and that is not just reaction. That motion actually opens the door to a much more proactive process that this Hon. Court can engage itself in, and I want to address the proactive issues that impact on us all to begin with, and then I want to complete my remarks by referring back to the particular circumstances that surround this particular motion. 260 This is not the first time, as Hon. Members know, that we have concerned ourselves with funding nursing and residential care. Back in 2015 it was very much at the top of the agenda and concerned us all. It was the will of Tynwald at that particular time, in the form of a motion on 17th November 2015:

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That Tynwald views with concern the provision for care for the elderly in the future, in the light of the expected demographic changes in the Island’s population; and that a Select Committee –

– be appointed of three Members. I had the honour to chair that Committee and I had with me 265 Mr Speaker and, to add real life and vitality to the Committee, (Laughter) we also had Mr Karran. The Deputy Clerk will remember with interest the vibrancy of some of the exchanges that took place, and there were genuine disagreements between us. We were tasked, really, with two specific things, boiled down to simple language. One was the issue about capital build, creating modern facilities required for our elderly, and, secondly, how 270 on earth we were going to deal with the issue of funding care costs. Two extraordinarily big and difficult issues, which, if you follow the UK, they struggle with the whole matter as well. But what the Committee certainly was very clear on and agreed on was, as described by the Member for LegCo, the huge importance there is to care for the residents in all circumstances, and the hard-working staff. And as we sat and deliberated on those matters, Mr Speaker will 275 remember that there was a series of closures taking place in the UK of sometimes quite modern homes that had not long been constructed because the UK had, as it were, in simple terms, rushed its fences. A lot of investment had gone into care homes that they had converted into or grown into big PLCs that became interested in very short term returns, and the consequence of that, the short-termism, is that when the care homes did not quite work the way the market wanted them 280 to, they were shut, people we were moved from one residential home to another like packets of goods and staff lost their jobs. We were horrified, as a Committee. We were utterly horrified by that. (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) In fact, there is an echo of that in Peel, because we are talking about moving residents and staff to one side because of some inadequacy perhaps, we do not know, in the structure of the 285 capital build, or the financial arrangements. So there are echoes in what we were observing in the UK in the Isle of Man. So at the time, when we interviewed the Director of Adult Services, she said:

… I would want to see a mixed economy. It is essential in my view that the state has sufficient influence to manage the market (either by providing or having a share in the business – block purchasing, leasing the land – there are many ways) but that there is a healthy market of providers.

And there were two key paragraphs in our short report, our concise report, paragraphs 22 and 23. With your permission, Mr President, I would read those two paragraphs out:

22. The preferred model for new facilities is one where in the event of a business or standards failure it is only the operating organisation (be it a social enterprise or a more traditional company structure) that has to be replaced whilst everything and everyone else (property, staff and residents) remains in situ. This means the preferred owner of the property would be the Government. 23. We do not favour a return to nursing homes operated by the public sector; but we would be content to see nursing homes built and owned by the public sector but operated [and we suggested] by [a] social enterprise.

290 And in a way, when the Chief Minister was Minister for Health, we got close to that in terms of that decision to buy Salisbury Street. There are issues in the periphery that one can discuss and debate, and Public Accounts certainly did that, but there was a principle that was right, and that was that Government owned the property, but then passed it out to the private sector, as has been the case, because it means that quietly the Government is protecting the staff and the 295 residents of that home in the event of a failure of that particular organisation. The Government would wrap itself around the residents and the staff and seek another provider, and everything would carry on. So that was, as it were, a step in the right direction. The second area of concern for the Committee was how on earth we finance late-in-life residential care. It is not an easy subject. I would be the last person to stand up and say, yes, we 300 can do this, that and the other. But one of the areas that we were focusing on was the structure around our National Insurance Funds and indicated that there was, in effect, work to do. The Treasury Minister, in his wisdom, effectively has identified that issue and is examining it. So what ______2076 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

I am trying to say here is that there are a number of issues coming together, coalescing, exemplified by the circumstances in Peel. 305 There are other issues here as well. In 2018 I also had the privilege of chairing a Select Committee on the Financing of Infrastructure Schemes and Projects, and I had the pleasure of working with Ms Edge and Mr Shimmins. Mr Shimmins provided ample experience in this area. The interest in that particular Committee was to ask the question: should we just be staying with very simple financing structures for Government, in the sense that everything simply comes from 310 taxpayers’ funds? We produced a report of some 40-45 pages, which said there are a whole range of options, there are a whole ream of different ways that Government can lead restructuring capital projects and financing. So there we have the opportunity to examine how Government might put financing together to build the new build in the first instance. With regard to the work being done by the Treasury in terms of National Insurance, we have 315 the beginnings of a way to start rethinking about how we may find ways of apportioning funding towards elderly care. Then there is the final issue, linked much more to DHSC. It is the work that we have done, again through Treasury’s lead, to introduce Manx Care, and the proposal is that we ensure that the regional models we are looking for emerge from Peel and the west first. So I would put it to this 320 Hon. Court that we are apparently in crisis at the moment over and reacting to a specific situation, and worrying situation, in Peel, but in reality there are a set of threads coming together that can be woven into a new future for residential care. It is what does the regional body look like in the west, in terms of late-in-life elderly care? How can we help structure finance in terms of revamping and restructuring our National Insurance? You all know I have been banging on for years about 325 we need to restructure our National Insurance Fund. There are opportunities to gain more money into that Fund than currently exist. Then we also have the opportunity to find new financing structures that can help us plot what we want to do. Our report talked about the need for a new care home every two and a half years, and there are other homes that are coming towards the end of their life in other constituencies. 330 So I believe, because of all the work that has been going on through Treasury, through Manx Care, through NI etc., through much more innovative thinking about how financing structures can work, we are on the cusp of something here: the ability to get to the point where we can describe and define what we want our strategic policy for late-in-life elderly care to look like. We must not let the Corrin Memorial Home slip through the net and pass by. It deserves better. The people of the 335 west deserve better. So do please support this motion today and let’s really hope that in the gap that gives us and in the formation of the new administration, one of the priorities should be: what is our strategy for late-in-life elderly care going to look like and how are we going to deliver it? Thank you, Mr President. 340 Mr Callister: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford.

345 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you very much, Mr President. I start by saying, I think everyone would agree, this is one of those debates in this Hon. Court that we all wish we were not having to have; that it is one of those debates that none of us wants to be here today having to speak on. Can I thank the Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, for bringing the urgent motion 350 forward. I do have an amendment to it which actually strengthens what Mrs Lord-Brennan has put forward, Mr President, which I will come to in a moment. But can I start by saying that it is a very sad situation that has emerged with the Corrin Home? The Corrin Home itself has a long history within the community in Peel and in fact, although I was not able to be present at the public meeting last night, I believe the turnout, which was absolutely ______2077 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

355 excellent, shows just how many people in that community are invested in that home and the delivery of care within the west of the Island. It is a very valued site and there is quite rightly concern about the residents, because that is something that the Hon. Member of Council touched on, which I fully agree with. We must not forget at the heart of all this are people, it is the residents in the home, they are the absolute heart of this and the impact on them – particularly when we 360 are talking elderly residents, some of whom are the most vulnerable in our communities – is great. The Member of Council also touched on one of the other vital issues, which is the end of July is far too short. It is too short a period for us to be able to consider options; and the Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mr Robertshaw, very eloquently has mentioned various different options, different models that have been considered over the years and the very excellent report, I 365 thought, that the Committee came forward with in relation to residential care. So the big issue is that notice period, because between now and the end of July there is nothing we can physically do. If that notice period stands, if that is when the home closes, the only thing that DHSC can do is physically look to try and relocate the residents. So what we need to do is we need to address that. 370 The Hon. Member for Douglas East also mentioned about integrated care and the wellbeing project that has been taking place in the west, and that site has been absolutely intricate to that. It is a key strategic site, not just for the west, but I would argue for the Island as well. I was able to meet with the working group on Friday and one of the things that came across very clearly from the staff that were present and the residents, was the residents were happy where they were and 375 the staff were absolutely passionate about those residents. They were not concerned about themselves, they were concerned about the welfare of those residents. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It was like a family atmosphere, was what I got from meeting with them. Yesterday, I was able to meet with the directors of the home, who were very clear that they financially could not carry on as things stand past July, so that is where we currently stand. 380 So my amendment to Mrs Lord-Brennan’s motion, turning to that. Number (1) recognises the fact that the home is a private care home – it is stating the obvious to be honest – and the trustees and directors are the responsible persons for decisions related to it. Mrs Lord-Brennan hit a very valid point, which is Tynwald can give an expression of opinion but it cannot instruct as such. Well, as Minister for the Department, Mr President, I can bind the 385 Department and that is what I am looking to do with this amendment. In number (2), we note that the Department of Health and Social Care remains committed to ensuring the long-term future provision of care services in the west of the Island. Again, it might be a statement that goes without saying, but I think it is important it is said and that we actually have to engage with the community, not just the trustees but also the community; because one 390 of the things I believe did emerge out of last night is there are people out there in the community, and the Hon. Member of Council mentioned it, that actually would like to help and try and see what they can do to assist; and that we consider full consideration of all the options, which is not just redevelopment of the site, be it short term or longer term, but potentially refurbishment as well. Also it ties in precisely what was in the motion from Mrs Lord-Brennan that requests that 395 the DHSC, in association with Manx Care, where appropriate, develop a clear strategy for the future provision of care services in the west. This all feeds in with the integrated care pathway and again, as Mr Robertshaw touched on, the regional approach to ensure that we have proper services available within the different other regions. But one of the key points in this amendment, Mr President, is point (4), where it not only 400 instructs DHSC to engage in further discussions with the trustees and the directors of the Corrin Memorial Home to secure the property, which is absolutely key because that is a strategic site and regardless of what happens longer term that site, from my point of view, must not be lost; so to secure the property, land and curtilage for the future provision of care in the west of the Island, but also crucially, to work with the trustees to ensure a minimum notice period of six months for 405 residents.

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The end of July is only seven weeks away, if my maths is correct, and nothing can be done in that time. We do not have the information, which several Members have already alluded to, and we need to be able to compile everything to look at what the options are properly. So we will work with the trustees to ensure that the notice period is a minimum of six months. It also 410 requests that the provision of care in the west of the Island should include the implementation and development of integrated care services, because that is the future, Mr President. Mr Robertshaw hit on a very valid point when he spoke, when he said we are dealing potentially with a crisis today, but this feeds into wider things and that we are potentially on the cusp of something, of actually how we develop and deal with our elderly services in the future and 415 what we must not do is allow the closure of this home to put that in jeopardy. So, Mr President, I am moving an amendment to try and firm up Mrs Lord-Brennan’s motion and ensure that the services can be preserved in the west and that we can ensure that those residents are not just moved at the end of July, but we have proper time and proper breathing space to consider what the various options are so we can try and move things forward, because 420 as it stands, unfortunately, with the notice period that the trustees and directors have given, that just cannot happen. So it is important that we have that six months’ notice. Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move:

To leave out all the words after “That Tynwald” and add the words: 1) recognises the status of the Corrin Memorial Home as a private care home and the Trustees and Directors as the responsible persons for the decisions related to it; 2) notes that the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) remains committed to ensuring the long term future provision of care services in the West of the Island and will engage with the community and the trustees to allow for full consideration of the options such as refurbishment and redevelopment; 3) requests the DHSC, in association with Manx Care where appropriate, develop a clear strategy for the future provision of care services in the West; 4) instructs the DHSC to engage in further discussions with the Trustees and Directors of the Corrin Memorial Home to secure the property, land and curtilage for the future provision of care in the West of the Island; and that the Department of Health and Social Care will work with the trustees to ensure a minimum notice period of six months for residents; 5) requests that the provision of care in the West of the Island should include the implementation and development of integrated care services.

The President: Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Harmer.

425 Mr Harmer: Thank you, Mr President. I am delighted to second the amendment. I think both the motion and the amendment are critical. I thank the Member of Council for bringing up this really important issue. I think fundamentally what we are talking about here is something that strikes right at the heart of the community, at the heart of the people, the heart of our Island. This has been an incredibly 430 traumatic time, particularly for the residents – many of them are in their mid-90s – and for the staff. One of the things that, because I think the Member for Douglas East pointed it out, about buildings, the fact they are new buildings and they closed them. The fundamental issue, the thing that really gripped me when I have been discussing this with staff members and residents, is the 435 fact that it is the ethos. There is actually something really to learn from the ethos of the Corrin Home and the Trust in the way that we develop our integrated healthcare. It is absolutely vital, because one of the fundamental concepts is not … sometimes we talk about care, but we forget about people’s freedom, about people’s independence, about people’s lives, and this comes down to the very heart of it; and in terms of the Corrin Home this is fundamentally something that is 440 absolutely core. I absolutely applaud the trustees, the directors, the staff. ______2079 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The difficult thing is they have run against a brick wall and, like the Member of Council said, there is no time. End of July – seven weeks: who can do anything in seven weeks? It is absolutely impossible. What we need is time to develop options to look at the whole way that we can build care, because what I said earlier is that it is right in the centre. You have got the GP practice; you 445 have not just got the GP practice, you have got the Wellbeing Centre, you have got the sheltered housing complex, you are actually close to schools, you are close to the police station, if you want to go shopping – things like that. Everything rests around this centre of a community. If we can learn something from this and build on this, if we can move forward then I think turning a tragedy – which is what has happened – into something that can be really positive and beneficial 450 for the whole Island, something we can all learn from. So I totally get the sentiment of the original motion, but the amendment actually directs and makes things happen. I think the Member of Council alluded to that, that all she could do at this stage was give the opinion. Hopefully this amendment firms it and makes it happen, and we can say, right, we have got six months, let’s work with the community. Because one of the key things 455 that came out last night was there were loads of people wanting to help. There were loads of people that, ‘If only we had known. We could do this,’ or, ‘If only we had known. Well, if you need a touch up of paint,’ as the Member of Council said, okay, let’s do that. It is a community thing and with that, I am very supportive of the motion, but I think I like the amendment because it commits Government to do something. 460 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 465 I stand today in 100% support of the residents of the Corrin Memorial Home – 100% in their plight that has been put before us today and drawn out through the media over the last couple of weeks. I say that because of personal experience in a very similar situation. It has made me very angry and very sad that we have arrived at this point and that, as the Health Minister said, arrived at Tynwald and that we are having this debate. 470 Somewhere around 2008, Eaghtyrane, there was a move in my constituency by the DHSS to close down Glenside, one of the biggest, if not the biggest, care homes in the Isle of Man – Government run. I led the charge here with my colleague, John Houghton, on that and we had it deferred because of all the reasons that Mrs Kate Lord-Brennan has laid forth for us now. It seems a sense of déjà vu. 475 Then a short number of years later, it was put back on the table by a new Minister that Glenside was going to be shut down, and we have heard Hon. Members here today recounting their disgust in the Select Committee of residents being moved round like the packages, from what they were reviewing on the evidence from the 2015 Select Committee. I can tell you, Eaghtyrane, that I watched the residents of Glenside being moved round like packages back in 2011-12 and I was 480 disgusted and revolted by what was going on, and I was disgusted at the responses I was getting from the then Health Minister, due to my questioning in this place and the House of Keys, over the disgraceful situation that ensued with regard to that. ‘We must have Glenside closed! It is costing us money’ – that was the party line that was pushed out time and time again. And Glenside was closed, Eaghtyrane, and the point of me labouring this point and to vent off 485 my anger at the Minister who was in charge at the time, if he can hear me, was the fact that we were told those residents would be ‘relocated’ or ‘repatriated’, as we have heard some of the language this morning, like packages, but they will be in groups and their families would be involved and this would happen and it would be all done very nicely and humanely, as if we were talking about moving, not humans, but almost animals in one way. 490 All those residents were moved and I can say with personal experience that I know what happened to a lot of them within six months of being moved – forcibly ejected, if you like – from their home, which they loved and treated as their home and so did their relatives. Eaghtyrane, the ______2080 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

health implications that ensued for many of them within six months were shocking. The Minister at the time was told this, the medical evidence was furnished to him and it was all rejected, 495 basically. I would urge Hon. Members to think about what is happening here. We have 21 elderly residents in their 90s, as the Hon. Member Mrs Lord-Brennan says, living in their home. I personally charge the Health Minister to do all he can to ensure that the Corrin Memorial Home will stay open as long as possible until we can sort this mess, for want of a better word, out. It is 500 truly astonishing how we have suddenly arrived here, but I can warn all Hon. Members, Eaghtyrane, that the worst thing you can do to an elderly person who has been living in a location for a length of time, who has become used to their surroundings, people they know, the staff, their families are happy, is to move them summarily on short notice. The health implications, I can tell you, Eaghtyrane, and Hon. Members, are considerable. We need to be talking about the 505 humanity of the situation here and the compassion. That needs to be fully injected into whatever is going on here. There are two points, Eaghtyrane. First and foremost, as the Health Minister said, and others, the residents are the 100% most important thing in this; after that nothing much else matters as far as I am concerned. Then secondly, in the background, a care of the elderly healthcare strategy 510 going forward into the future for the west of the Island. Do not be swamped with all the additional information, Hon. Members; we need to focus on the residents of the Corrin Memorial Home here and ensure they are treated absolutely with dignity and positive respect, positive regard and with compassion. We need to think about the effects this is all having on them now. They are elderly, frail residents with the Sword of Damocles hanging over their head at the minute, and that is a 515 disgraceful situation to find ourselves in. Socially disgraceful, and certainly from a community point of view, it is disgraceful. I am minded to fully support the Hon. Member’s motion in its entirety, Eaghtyrane. But I am not directing comments to the Health Service or to any particular individual, because I want nothing more than for the Health Minister to continue to engage in talks with the trustees of the 520 Corrin Memorial Home. I hope the Health Minister is listening to that. I want him to continue his talks and with his senior staff, with the Corrin Memorial Home to try and avert something that might actually turn into something even worse than where it is at the minute. Eaghtyrane, I am sorry to labour on, but it is a very personal thing to me, as I say. Looking at the Health Minister’s amendment to Mrs Lord-Brennan’s main motion, I think we can find some 525 common ground here. In respect of that I will move an amendment as an addition to the Hon. Member for Douglas North, the Minister, Mr Ashford’s. This is an add-on. It is not a change, but it is a bolt-on on the end. I would say the amendment would read – which is being circulated at the minute, Eaghtyrane:

And requests the Department to report back to Tynwald in October on progress.

So it is putting a timeframe and a control on the end of it, so that we do actually get to know, in 530 the Hon. Court, in public, what is going on. Eaghtyrane, in closing, I just hope all Hon. Members will take full cognisance of this, as I hope they will, and hopefully the pressure from this debate will cause the impetus to try and get some sort of positive outcomes here, but again I will finish on a plea to the Health Minister and whoever, to ensure the safety and well-being of the residents of the Corrin Memorial Home that they do 535 not have to suffer any more stress or indignity, as I put it, in the face of what is happening currently. Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I beg to move:

As an amendment to the motion in the name of Mr Ashford, to add at the end the words ‘And requests the Department to report back to Tynwald in October on progress.’

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The President: Lord Bishop.

540 The Lord Bishop: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second the amendment in the name of Mr Henderson and reserve my remarks.

The President: It is not possible to reserve remarks on an amendment, sir.

545 The Lord Bishop: Thank you, in which case I commend my hon. colleague sincerely for emphasising the values of compassion and of humanity in this issue, and I second the amendment in his name. Thank you, Mr President.

550 The President: Thank you. Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine.

Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. I rise to welcome the motion as put by my hon. friend, the Member of Council Mrs Lord- 555 Brennan, and indeed the subsequent amendment, as put forward by the Minister for the Department of Health and Social Care, Mr Ashford. Mr President, the care and welfare of our older generation is something for which we must all look to address, ensuring that our older people feel comfortable in their surroundings without the need of worry, particularly at a time when many may be at their most vulnerable. As the 560 Hon. Member of Council, Mr Henderson, alluded to, these are proud and dignified people, Mr President, (Two Members: Hear, hear.) not cattle to be traded and passed from pillar to post. With particular reference to the Corrin Home, I have spoken personally to Miss Sharon Thomas, of the staff working group, who was most cognisant in her appraisal of the situation. I have also received additional correspondence from concerned members of the public regarding this very 565 relevant issue. Therefore, I very much welcome what my hon. friend said and concur with her 100% that it is a matter of urgent public importance and it is therefore of the utmost significance that with regard to the situation following the announcement by the trustees, the best practice is followed and that, as set out in the motion, six months’ notice should be given, that a pellucid approach should 570 be undertaken by the trustees and that an unambiguous plan of action for the provision and care for the older generation in the west, which in time could serve as a template to the wider Island, be undertaken either by or on behalf of the Department of Health and Social Care. Thank you, Mr President.

575 The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I rise really to commend my hon. friend, Mrs Lord-Brennan, for bringing forward this motion today. Once again, Mrs Lord-Brennan has demonstrated her diligence and her responsiveness to 580 grasping difficult and complicated issues. I will clearly be supporting the motion. I also welcome the amendment from my hon. friend, Mr Henderson, and I will be supporting that because there does need to be some time binding on this issue. The point I want to make, Mr President, is four and a half years and there has been no progress really on long-term care, despite lots of rhetoric, lots of good words – and we have heard lots of 585 good words, I think, today – and that, I think, is really poor and clearly this needs to link in with other aspects: sheltered housing provision, assisted living for people, what we are doing in our housing strategy – once again no progress in four and a half years that I can see, no meaningful progress. Words are easy, actions are more challenging.

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So I absolutely support the amendment from Mr Henderson. It talks about an update report 590 back on progress; now, I actually would like to see things happen rather than an update on progress. So I will be supporting that, Mr President, and I will leave it at that. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member for Peel and Glenfaba, Mr Boot. 595 Mr Boot: Thank you, Mr President. When I heard the news that the Home was closing, it was with dismay because, as one of the MHKs for Glenfaba and Peel, the notice we received was at the same time as the announcement was made, and I feel that it was very unfortunate that we did not have some prior notice that 600 problems were brewing and it was going to come to such an abrupt conclusion. I know that there have been difficult circumstances around the situation with regard to COVID and the trustees and directors, and I do not want to play a blame game here because what we have got to do is snatch something positive from what has happened, not keep looking at the negatives. I think how the debate has broadened out has shown me that there is a bigger debate 605 to be had, but at the same time we need to concentrate on what we are going to do for the residents and the Corrin Home in the immediate future. (A Member: Hear, hear.) The notice period was far too short and, as I said earlier, it would have been useful for us all to have been involved at an earlier stage. We now seem to be in a more transparent phase, and I believe that we will start to see what has happened and how things can be moved forward. I 610 congratulate Mrs Kate Lord-Brennan on bringing the motion and I think it was the right time, and particularly after the public meeting that we all attended last night. It is obvious from the interaction that there is great community support for the facility in the west and the residents in there, with a lot of people with relatives in the home, and it has been a long-term facility which has been appreciated by all, and it is one that obviously people want to 615 see continue. As I said in the radio interview, people are willing to put their hands in their pockets locally to support this. So we have support going forward, but we need support from a Government perspective and I think Mr Ashford’s amendment to the motion does just that and puts some meat around the bones, because one of the things that I think is very important is that we examine the refurbishment option to see whether the Home can be retained in the short term, 620 but we need a strategic plan going forward for the west in terms of social care. There are holes in our social care generally. I note in the debate at the last Tynwald we were talking about residential and elderly social care going forward. We seem to rely on state provision in that respect – and this does not necessarily refer to the Corrin Home, which was and is a private home, but nevertheless. There is no option like there is in the UK where they have people like 625 McCarthy and Stone providing private warden care accommodation that people can buy into. There seems to be this hole in our provision that if you cannot get yourself into the state sector as you get older and you need some care and control, as it were, over what goes on and supervision, you cannot do that in the Isle of Man. But that is a debate for another day; the debate here today is what we are going to do for the Corrin Home. 630 So having seen the excellent local support and talked to the staff who are so committed and having visited the Home on several occasions and seen the level of care, I am very impressed and I really believe there is a future for the Corrin Home, or I hope there is, and that the motions before you today will give us some breathing space to examine the options. So in saying that, I will support Mr Ashford’s amendment and Mr Henderson’s amendment to 635 report in October, because I think it is important that we do not waste the time this extension may afford us and we interact with the trustees and directors to try to get the best possible outcome. Thank you.

640 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Christian. ______2083 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Compassion and humanity – these are really fantastic words that I am so pleased to hear in this Hon. Court. I would like to also thank my friend and Hon. Member of Legislative Council for bringing this urgent motion and I fully support it. You have that – my 100%. I am also supportive 645 of the amendments brought by Minister Ashford and Mr Henderson. Mr Robertshaw is right, this is about the right time for this. As some of you may know, my family are going through something that is very personal to this. We are in the process of making a decision for a member of family going into a nursing home and over the past couple of weeks I personally have been going to visit these nursing homes, and the 650 one thing that I see is that it is their home, the staff are their family and I could not bear the thought of my member of family being moved after they had just got settled or had been in there for some years. I think that would be an absolute crime for this Government to let happen. The decision has been very stressful for my family and I wholeheartedly agree with Mrs Lord-Brennan that to remove any of the patients would have a dramatic effect on these residents. 655 I would like to draw attention to some language that has been used over the past couple of days and a sentence which was branded recently in my own constituency, when there was a threat to Snaefell Surgery: ‘If we help one, we will have to help all of them.’ Mr President, this is only an opinion: if we applied this rule across all that Government did and provided then we would not have a benefits system, we would not protect our most vulnerable in society. We have a moral 660 obligation today to provide a long-term plan for the people of the west. We have a moral obligation today to step in now and I hope that all Members here today will support this. Thank you, Mr President.

Bill for signature

The President: Hon. Members, I just pause the debate for one moment to announce that the International Maritime Standards Bill 2020 is ready for signature. With the consent of the Court I 665 shall circulate it for signing while we deal with other business. Is the Court content? (Members: Agreed.) Thank you.

Residential elderly care in the west – Acquiring Corrin Memorial Home and future provision – Debate continued – Amended motion carried

The President: I now call the Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.

670 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I have heard a lot today about how there is not a lot of time left and how the Department is going to struggle to step in, given the legislative framework that exists around residential care homes. I think it is fair to say that we all know we have a National Health Service; I think what is becoming more and more clear when we go through not only this debate but the wider 675 conversation around residential care and nursing care, is that we do not have a national social care service, and I think that is a huge gap that we have been quite negligent in not filling. It is a massive piece of work and I think what we are seeing today is just a reflection of the reality that you have when you have a private system partially funded by the taxpayer. In some ways this was always going to happen. ______2084 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

680 But, Hon. Members, you know me, I quite like to understand the detail behind things, so I spent a bit of time going through the regulations surrounding the Regulation of Care Act, especially off the back of comments that were made around, ‘If only we had known sooner we could have done something to help.’ So the Regulation of Care Act places a number of duties on the Department of Health and Social 685 Care. The general functions of the Department under that Act are: the Department has the function of monitoring compliance with the Act by registered persons – so in this case, the registered care home. One of the things the care home is required to do by law by the Regulations that sit underneath the Regulation of Care Act, they are required to ensure that they are financially viable. 690 In fact, the Regulation of Care (Care Services) Regulations specify that the registered provider must carry on the care service in such manner that is likely to ensure the care service will be financially viable for meeting the needs of service recipients. So that is an obligation placed on the care home, but it is an obligation placed on the Department to monitor compliance with this part of the law. It is the Department’s job to make sure that a registered provider is in fact financially 695 viable and, as far as I can make out, they do not. I have looked at the last two reports for the Corrin care home, one in 2019 and one in 2021, in March of this year, and actually neither of those reports makes a reference to the financial viability of the provider. I have not heard anything from the Department, either, this morning, that has convinced me that they have actually been monitoring compliance with the law which they are 700 required to do by the law. So this nonsense about, ‘We have had no time. We did not know what was happening,’ actually, if they had been doing the thing they are supposed to be doing they would have known, they would have noticed, they would have been able to see this coming. We have also heard about three months. The only reference I can find to three months is in the surrender process whereby the provider surrenders its registration. So that is what I am 705 assuming is being talked about in the three-month reference. As part of this – part of the law actually – the Department is required to accept a surrender application. So this is not a case of a service whereby the provider can simply say, ‘I am not doing this anymore,’ they have to make an application to the Department to surrender their licence. Then, very specifically, the Act says that the Department must consider and decide on each application. So the Department has made a 710 positive decision to accept a surrender notice. As part of that process, the Department may consider whether or not it thinks appropriate arrangements need to be made for persons receiving social care or non-NHS care services provided at the care service. So the Department, as part of the surrender process, is required – or rather has the option – to consider whether or not alternative arrangements need to be put in 715 place as part of the surrender process. So when the Department said, ‘Yes, we accept your surrender,’ at the same time they really should have said, ‘And this is how we are going to deal with the residents,’ and they did not. I have not heard that. ‘We will work on it. We are thinking about it. We will work over the next three months with the trustees to decide what might happen.’ We also heard that the Department does not have all the information it needs, but again as 720 part of the surrender application, the law is very clear: the Department can ask for any information they want. There is a Schedule actually inside a piece of law called the Regulation of Care (Registration) Regulations, which specifies a long list of things that the providers must provide, but there is also a very generic statement that says the registered provider must provide the DHSC with any other information or documents they may reasonably require in relation to the surrender 725 application. So actually, not only should the Department have been monitoring the financial viability of this provider as a generic part of its general functions under the Regulation of Care Act, they should also as part of the surrender application have been able to access a lot of this information in order to make a decision on whether or not to accept the surrender application itself. So as part of 730 accepting that surrender, they should have been able to say, ‘We have all the information we need

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in order for you to surrender your registration and for us as the Department to ensure that the people in your care are provided with adequate care on an ongoing basis.’ So there are lots of failings here, I think. There are lots of things that, to my mind, the law says should be happening that do not seem to be happening, and instead we are here debating what 735 we should do with a private firm providing a service to the Department of Health. That is a bizarre situation to be in. I think we need more information. I would like to know how much engagement there was between the Department of Health, the Registration and Inspection team and this particular provider prior to the surrender notice being given. I would like to know what the Department of Health was doing monitoring the provision and the financial viability of this 740 provider and, in fact, all of the providers on the Isle of Man, because this really flags up a concern for me that this may not be the only one. I would also like to know, as part of deciding on this surrender application, why the Department did not decide to undertake some of those checks that the Act allows them to take in terms of what further provision and further care is going to be provided to residents of the care home. 745 Actually, the last question I have at the back of my mind is what is going to happen with the funding? We have heard statements this morning that the Trust operating this Home does not have the financial capability to keep trading, which is why they have given three months’ notice. So if now, as Tynwald, we are telling the Department of Health to go away and see if they can work out a way retrospectively now of extending that notice period to six months, where is the 750 funding going to come from? I am sure that the Minister of Health does not have a slush fund down the back of his sofa. So I think we need some clarity. The Department is proposing this themselves, they are the ones saying, ‘We should work with the trustees to develop a six-month process,’ which I do not object to at all, but I think they need to be a bit clearer about how they want to fund this. So to 755 my mind there is a lot to unpick here; there are a lot of reasons that this organisation may have failed, but I am more concerned about why the regulation and the Department did not pick up on any of these issues earlier. I am really concerned to hear comments from the Minister saying, ‘Three months is not long enough. If only we had longer.’ As far as I read it, it is within the Department’s gift at the point the care home said, ‘We are surrendering our licence,’ to have said, 760 ‘We need more information before we approve this. We need to know more before we approve your surrender application.’ The Department could even have said, no. They could even have said, ‘No, we are not allowing you to surrender your application at this point because we do not know enough. We do not have a firm idea of what is going to happen to the people in your care.’ And that worries me. It worries 765 me that we are hearing one story from the Department of Health here, but actually the underlying truth is probably a lot more complex. So to my mind, I fully support the original motion, I fully support this amendment. I think both really achieve the same thing which is to force the Department to perhaps go back to square one and do some of the things that it should have been doing as a matter of course. It really is a great 770 disappointment, although not a surprise, that we are here basically debating whether or not the Department of Health should be doing the regulation the law provides that it should be doing. Thank you very much, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to speak to the amendment. 775 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I welcome very much the amendment coming forward. I am just going to constrain my comments to that. I notice that in the amendment from Minister Ashford it does not include the words ‘residential 780 elderly care’ and while I accept that talking about the future provision of care services in the west, I hope residential elderly care would be part of that. I would seek specific assurance on that because I do not want something to be … we have got this long-term plan but actually we have ______2086 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

forgotten to include the main element of what we were aiming to address. So I would seek assurance on that. 785 On the point about the current situation with the six months’ notice, I think that Mr Hooper has made some really good points there, absolutely. I mean he is talking about best practice and some of the legislative points. The funding of that, partly why I included in my original motion about having some open and transparent co-operation from the other parties involved, is because you need that openness and transparency in order to see what the financial situation is in order 790 to see what funding or financial assistance or intervention may be required to take us from this point now to bridge the gap to where there is a longer-term plan in place. So within the Adult Social Care budget that I would understand DHSC would have, would it be the intention under Minister Ashford’s amendment to make sure that there is that openness and transparency in order to look at the funding? So essentially, will he look at the funding requirements around this 795 in order to keep the residents and the staff in situ? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: The Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Baker.

800 Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. I think it has been a very good debate, and there is a strong degree of unanimity about the way forward. So I am not going to repeat things that other Members have said. But I think there are some key points that we do need to draw out of this for the future, not specifically around the Corrin Home situation, or indeed the situation we directly find ourselves in now, but in terms of 805 how we move forward. It was clear listening to some of the other contributions there are three or four fundamental points that this debate illustrates. The first fundamental is the need for regional provision. (A Member: Hear, hear.) So this is important because there is no other provision for the people of the west to have this care. They need to have it in their communities in the same way as the people in the south, the people in the 810 north and the people in the east. We need to be providing these services and facilities regionally to tie in with the communities that those people have spent their lives, large parts of their lives at least, in there. That is important, Hon. Members. Secondly, and Mr Robertshaw did touch on this but I think it is an important point that needs drawing out further, the use of social enterprise as a delivery mechanism. In the Isle of Man I 815 would say that that has been underdeveloped, (Mr Robertshaw: Hear, hear.) and we are missing a trick, Hon. Members, with it. There are examples right across neighbouring jurisdictions where social enterprise is an integral part of service delivery. Now, you cannot just throw the ball to the social enterprise provider. You have to create an environment where the social enterprise provider can engage with Government and the community to be an integral part of the solution. 820 I firmly believe there are organisations that would step in to these types of situations and be very effective at delivering services, provided we are able to create the right ecosystem around that. If you look at other jurisdictions, you see concepts like community interest companies which are quite prevalent. Now, we do not have a direct equivalent of that in the Isle of Man. I think people with a legal background would say perhaps we do not need that, that these things can be 825 achieved through existing corporate structures in the Island, and that may well be the case, but there is something about being intentional about the need to engage with social enterprise. I think it is a theme that will continue to develop over the next decade in the Isle of Man and it will become a real part of our landscape here, but we have to be intentional about it and we have to set up the right environment for those things to come in and engage with Government and for it 830 to be an accepted way forward. The third is community involvement. Again, it was really reassuring to hear the local community stepping up and saying, ‘How can we help?’ Not ‘What can you do for us?’ but, ‘How can we help finally find a solution?’ That is the best of the Isle of Man stepping forward. But, Hon. Members, this cannot all be about Government. It cannot all be about big state, things being ______2087 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

835 done to people or for people. There has to be a partnership between Government, local community and innovative structures like social enterprises. But in order for that to happen, Hon. Members, we need to be deliberate, we need to be intentional and we need to be strategic about it to create the right environment for those things to happen. So with that, Mr President, I will be supporting the principles of the motion that was brought 840 forward by the Member of Council, but I will be supporting the amendment from the Minister for the Department of Health and Social Care, with the other add-ons from Mr Henderson. Thank you.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Ashford, to speak to the amendment. 845 Mr Ashford: Thank you, Mr President. I just rise to say that I support the amendment in the name of Mr Henderson – I fully support that. And while I am on my feet, Mr President, if you will indulge me, I will clarify for the Hon. Member of Council it most certainly does include residential care for the elderly within the 850 definition of care services, so that is there on the Hansard.

The President: Thank you. Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge.

855 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I am really pleased, actually, that we are having this debate today, but at the same time very disappointed that last month not many Members in this Hon. Court actually spoke about residential care when I moved for a general debate. So it is a bit disappointing, because perhaps if things would have been highlighted then, there would have been more meat on the bone today 860 as well. However, I fully support the Hon. Member of Council bringing forward this as an urgent motion today, and quite clearly it is very urgent for the west of the Island. My concerns are very similar to Mr Hooper’s with regard to surely somebody saw the financial situation coming down the line and how come that was not picked up by Registration and 865 Inspection? It does make you wonder over comments of regulation and inspection of homes on the Island recently whether they are doing the right, appropriate inspections under the law. But I also stand to move an amendment, Mr President, to the Hon. Member for Douglas North, Mr Ashford’s changes to the original motion, and it is just to add in at the end of paragraph (4) that ‘if a closure is regrettably necessary’. I think what this actually does to the amended motion 870 that the Health Minister has put through, is actually give surety that a six months’ notice from the decision of a closure would be given to all individuals if it is deemed necessary at that point in time. So I hope that Hon. Members will support that, because it just adds in clarity that it will be only six months from when that decision has been reached. I do hope that with the timing that we can come to a satisfactory solution for the residents that 875 it is actually their home. I have heard Members in here talk about, ‘We need strategic vision, we need that’ – actually, we have got residents in a residential home in the west of the Island, that it is their actual home. Corrin Home was built in 1955-56. Yes, things have changed, but no building that is built today is fit for purpose from the day it is opened, because there are always changes required, Mr President. We have seen that. 880 And I do need to touch on the demolition of Glenside Nursing Home, which I do believe was actually built after the Corrin Home, and we lost that in the east of the Island. I had a relative who was in there, and it was a fantastic place. The facilities there were no lesser quality than I am seeing today in some of the settings that we have. (Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.) We have converted guesthouses. Glenside was superior to that, and I do hold the previous 885 administrations – and there are still some Members in here today – accountable for losing those beds. It was not necessary at that time, (Interjection) Mr President. ______2088 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

I do feel that we should not be knocking anything down that people are living in until a replacement with planning approval and all the funding is in place to make sure that the care for the future of individuals is agreed by this Hon. Court. (Mr Thomas: Hear, hear.) That was the 890 mistake at Glenside: (A Member: Hear, hear.) knock it down and then we will start again. Well, planning, and there are a number of ex-MHKs commenting on the radio at the present time about Glenside and saying it was there, it was ready to go, they need to look and keep up to speed. There was no planning permission in place to do a replacement care home on the Glenside site. That was the error of their ways and therefore there have been considerable delays to providing that 895 additional care in the Isle of Man for people in the east. I do feel that needs to be put on record. There have been errors along the way and we do not want to see that happen in Peel. So I fully support my hon. colleague of Council for bringing this today. It has become an urgent matter for the west of the Island. I am disappointed that the trustees or the Department have not been in discussions, and we are only finding about this too late, but the main thing is the six 900 months’ notice will give opportunity for individuals and their families. I do feel that amending this, that if a closure is regrettably necessary, I am hopeful that a closure will not be necessary if planning and foresight for the future of residential care on the Island. We are quite restricted on residential care. Everybody talks about nursing home care, which is a totally different model. I would like to see residential care where we have extra care facilities. 905 I am in a similar situation as hon. colleague for Douglas South. I have elderly parents, both over 90, who do not want to go into a care setting and we have no real facilities on the Island to support these people in their homes. It is families that have to do that, and most families want to do that, but what we need to do is the way we are funding all of this, care in home, we need extra care facilities, we need residential and then we need nursing. And hopefully, actually, we would be 910 reducing the amount of nursing beds we need if we have got those prior facilities available to help our people that have worked so hard and put into this Island in their times when they should be enjoying life, but have numerous options and facilities available. We are behind the curve and we need to move forward, Mr President, but I fully support that we have to find a solution for Peel and the west. I spoke to one resident who uses the Corrin Home 915 for respite, and if that is gone, where does that individual go? It is just appalling that we forget it is not a building that needs to be maintained, it is people’s homes, Mr President. Thank you. I beg to move:

As an amendment to the motion in the name of Mr Ashford, at the end of paragraph (4) after the words ‘six months for residents’ to insert the words ‘, if a notice is regrettably necessary;’.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas East, Mrs Barber.

920 Mrs Barber: Thank you, Mr President. So my background: started working in care homes. At the age of 15, I walked up the road and I got myself a little job washing the pots, and I loved it! I absolutely loved it. In fact, I loved it so much that I went off and I did my nurse training off the back of it, because I thought, this is me, this is what I love doing. I have been to probably more 100th birthdays than most people here, 925 (Laughter) even a few 101st, 102nd! And I have spent time and realised that when you work in a care home, you get to know those people and you get to know the families. There are families I am still in touch with from people I cared for when I was 16/17 – just a few years ago! (Laughter) However, I have also seen when people have had to move from care homes, because there is a progression, and I think it is really important, the comments made by Ms Edge, actually, that 930 there is that need for us to look at how we support care to bring care to people, rather than having to bring people to care. Because actually, it is difficult when people have to move and at the minute there are times when they do have to move, and we cannot get away from that. That is the situation, that is historically the structure that we have for the Island, and it will take time to develop the sort of infrastructure that we need to fundamentally change care. But it is certainly ______2089 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

935 my aspiration, and it is certainly something we talk about within the Department of Health and Social Care as being an aspiration; it has been talked about in this Hon. Court. So there is no question that we want the right thing for the people who are in Corrin Home, and for all the other care homes, actually, because that is their home; and certainly, if I make a decision to move house, it is not a quick thing. A lot of thought goes into it, where do I want to be, 940 what do I want, what services, what facilities, what things are definite/must-haves, what things are nice-to-haves, and I think it is important that we appreciate that. So the decision to move for anyone is a big one, and so I think it is important that we allow the time. So I think that for me is a really key component of all of the things that are on the table today: allowing people time, and not just for DHSC to see what vires we have, but also for the people who live there who are at the 945 heart of all this to be able to be involved and informed within those decisions. So I think one thing to say is that there is an issue around the registration requirements and the way registration requirements work, and certainly this was something that I was very attuned to when I was working in care homes when we used to have three people in a bedroom together, because that used to be fine, and actually, there were some people who loved it! But the rules are 950 quite clear – this is when I worked in the south of England – that that was no longer okay. But you could continue until you had some major structural works done on the property or it changed ownership, and we find ourselves in the same situation here, that actually the current operators can continue to operate within a building that does not meet the criteria that would be levied against it for a new owner against the same property. If that is something we all want to discuss, 955 then I am more than happy to have that conversation. It is the same thing around registration of landlords, to take, for an example. There are some people who are very happy, I have been into some of the happiest houses of my life, when there are 15 people shoehorned into three or four bedrooms, because they have got loads of spending money and for them it suits them at that time in their life. But we recognise that, actually, the 960 quality of life in that situation is not a standard that we believe, and that is an imposed standard created by people who make laws in the land, we do not believe that to be acceptable. So we make that illegal through overcrowding laws, through other rules. But there are some people for whom those rules do not suit, and I think, again, we find ourselves in that situation here. I think there are things we need to have bigger discussions about. There are deeper discussions to be 965 had. So for me there has been discussion around the Corrin Home previously. This is not the first time we have had discussions. We have had lengthy discussions with directors and talked about opportunities. But ultimately the people who act in the role of a trustee or director of a property do have the legal obligation to execute the duty in the way that they believe to be appropriate. 970 As someone who acts as a director for a charity, I would be very concerned if I was being compelled to trade into insolvency against my will. So I think we have to bear that in mind. This has to be very delicately managed. It is not so simple as to simply force the hands of the directors, and it has to be something where we all work together. So I think we are all very clear on that and that, for me, the amendment in the name of Minister Ashford achieves that, and it 975 builds on the work, the very good work, of Mrs Lord-Brennan. I think, as has been said, it is absolutely critical that we get the offering right for the west of the Island. But it is also important that in that sphere we also recognise there is the offering in other areas of the Island and it is making people able to stay in the area that they call home, the place that they recognise, the place they have located themselves. I might choose to go to Ramsey 980 when I retire, I might go up to the sunny lights – I have heard the weather is better – (A Member: Hear, hear.) but right now I am sticking in Douglas because I love it. It is absolutely where I want to be. But I also recognise that people in Peel absolutely want to stay there, and that is right. We need to look at how we enable that, we need to look at how we make the broader provision of care services. 985 So that is why I am actually very pleased that we do not talk just about residential care because I think there is a huge opportunity actually here. We do have that site that at the minute has got ______2090 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

the Western Wellbeing Centre, it has got the day centre, it has got the GP who are offering some really innovative and great stuff, actually, over in Peel and the west, which I think we want to capture. And we want to get the enthusiasm that I see when I talk to the practice manager in Peel 990 and we want to share that. We want to share best practice in all of these areas. So I think I would like to thank all those Members who have talked about what other opportunities there are around residential care, about respite care, step up/step down care, GPs, the wider therapies, Western Wellbeing day centre, and maybe even that extra care housing, maybe looking at how we can start to provide that in actually what is a really great site. Possibly not perfectly laid out at the minute, 995 but I think there are some real opportunities. So for me that is about that strategy and making sure we really look at that and explore it in the wider discussion, but very much making sure that there is the residential care provision. I think that is really important. So I think that this does allow us that time and we need to ensure that the people remain at 1000 the heart of the decisions. For me, that is absolutely vital. So I will second Ms Edge’s amendment because I think it is important that we recognise that this is the plan, this is something that we can work to, but this is if it is absolutely necessary. And there are other things that may come about, and I know that Mr Hooper, hon. colleague from Ramsey, rightly pointed out: how? How is this going to happen? How are we going to find the money? And I have alluded to that myself. But I 1005 do think that there are some things, some levers that we have within what we are discussing here around the opportunities, purchases, the opportunities for support, that we need to explore to see where we get to. I think that this absolutely is the right way forward and it has been really brilliant, actually, to listen to everyone today who truly have put the residents of the Corrin Home at the heart of this 1010 very important discussion. Because when you are living within that, it would be terrifying, and I understand that – I really do appreciate that – and I think it can sometimes almost seem like it is all going on around you. There are analogies with other things that happen I think around the Island, where sometimes everything is just going on so fast around you that you cannot keep on top of it. And I am saying that as someone who is still in my 30s, by the skin of my teeth, (Laughter) 1015 but if I was in my 90s, I probably be thinking, ‘Oh my goodness, I could never have anticipated this at this stage in my life.’ So as a Department I think we are very clear on our commitment to work in here to get the right outcome. I think I would encourage people absolutely to support the amendment in the name of the Minister, but also to support the amendments in the name of Mr Henderson, Member 1020 of Council, and the amendment by Ms Edge; but to thank absolutely Mrs Lord-Brennan for her bringing this very important topic to the floor of this Hon. Court. Thank you, Mr President.

A Member: Hear, hear. 1025 The President: Now, Hon. Members, the debate is clearly drawing to a close, but I have three further Members wishing to speak – four Members now wishing to speak – before I call on the mover. Mrs Corlett, Hon. Member for Douglas Central. 1030 Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank Mrs Lord-Brennan for bringing this motion forward today. Peel is a community and moving elderly people out when they may have lived in the west all their lives goes very much against my principles. Especially as there is no available alternative care 1035 facility in the west, and considering the Department’s promotion of the concept of more care closer to home. I feel that securing the property, land and curtilage of the Corrin Home will provide an opportunity for provision of residential care, extra care, respite care, step up/step down care. ______2091 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Alongside the GP surgery and the Western Wellbeing Centre, this really could be a stand-out 1040 model for an integrated healthcare facility. Mr President, it is people that count and our elderly residents deserve to feel safe and secure when they move into nursing or residential care. Minister Ashford’s amendment makes a commitment, and I feel it moves DHSC itself out of the position of being between a rock and a hard place. Mr Henderson’s amendment is also, for me, acceptable and sensible, as is Ms Edge’s, and I will 1045 be supporting all three amendments.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 1050 I applaud the local MLC for Glenfaba and Peel on bringing this motion today and for being instrumental in the organisation of the public meeting last night, at which the resolution, very much in line with the amended motion, was adopted unanimously by the 150-or-so people there. Secondly, I became involved in this on my birthday a few weeks ago, because many people around the Island, including families of residents in Douglas Central were in a sense victimised, 1055 but also weaponised by the way this develops and developed, and I would hope that we could all say a big apology to the families and to the staff of the Corrin Memorial Home because of the way things have progressed over the last three or four weeks. Because it was absolutely wrong that they have had to stand there to do the right thing, which is what we are all going to do, we are going to begin (Mrs Lord-Brennan: Hear, hear.) to do, today. 1060 So one of the constituents wrote to me, ‘My mother is 96 in September, my auntie’s 90, my mother was in the British Army in the War. She was attached to the batteries defending towns. Her job was on what is called the ‘predictor’, sending the information to the big guns of the height and direction to fire at the enemy aircraft. She said the guns were huge things. She should not be weaponised at 96.’ I think we all need to regret that things have happened like they are, and we 1065 need to regret some of the language that was used at the beginning of this week by senior civil servants, apparently, and we ought to move on now for a better future inside better change of policy in this area. Because it is more serious than has perhaps been presented already, because the families are already meeting social workers this week. It is not quite like what Mr Hooper suggested it is. There 1070 are meetings scheduled in the next couple of days with social workers to plan the transition and they need to be stopped from this moment, it seems to me. Go ahead with the social work meetings, fine, but we are not talking now about moving to somewhere else. We are now talking about the facts that have been put on the table today which is that the moratorium is there, money will be found as is necessary, and nobody has talked about the fact that a great majority 1075 of the residents there are receiving the £26,000 social security to pay their £500 or £600 fees, and it will cost £50,000 somewhere else, if there are any places available, but the residents are being told and families are being told, that there are not places available at the moment, perhaps necessarily. We have got a bit of a shortage of places at the moment and so on. So we need to actually assure the people affected that this moratorium is serious. Ms Edge’s amendment is very 1080 important because it does not assume that the closure and the notice will be given. It assumes that we are in a moratorium and we are trying to put things in a better place. So I welcome the Minister’s amendment today to take things forward in a positive way. People have gone back to various stages in history and I want to go back to a very helpful answer that Mr Robertshaw gave to Mr Henderson in 2012 and 2014 because basically 1085 Mr Henderson harangued and harassed Mr Robertshaw until he promised, in the context of Glenside, that we would be looking for ‘a period of up to two years’ so that we could be sensitive to the ‘wishes and needs’ of the residents of Glenside and Mr Robertshaw conceded that willingly. In the end, 13 months was needed or thereabouts, and the home was closed sooner than two years, but there was a firm commitment made that there would be time to actually plan properly.

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1090 It then went all wrong in planning and it all went wrong in lots of other things that Mr Henderson also harangued Mr Robertshaw and subsequent people about because of issues there. But let’s make sure that we maintain the high standards set by the Minister for Social Care back in 2012-13, in the sense of giving a surety for the amount of time that was necessary as a principle – up to two years, is what the Minister of Social Care said in 2012. Today we have not 1095 got that. If we pass the amendment, as Ms Edge has … we have got six months’ notice and we have got the best practice guide mentioned by Mrs Lord-Brennan. But up to two years was what our predecessors stated a decade ago and we need to have the same level of aspiration. A few other points. Somebody needs to mention the fact that one of the earliest action points in the name of the Department of Infrastructure and the Department of Health and Social Care in 1100 the Programme for Government back in January 2017 was to:

Investigate how to ensure we have accommodation that can meet the needs of an ageing population including ‘care’ and ‘extra care’ housing, and nursing and residential homes

A Member: Hear, hear.

Mr Thomas: That was how the work was taken forward from the Select Committee and the work back in 2013. It was alongside funding arrangements. Unfortunately, the report that was 1105 received in 2018 disappointed Minister Ashford, and it disappointed myself, and it disappointed, presumably … (A Member: Hear, hear.) the Infrastructure Department were following on it. Minister Ashford, fair play to him, did say in the expenditure of £13-or-so million on the Summerhill eventual replacement for Glenside that the reports and the memo that Members got even at that point was still disappointing. We need progress on the future of all aspects of re- 1110 balanced adult services, including sheltered homes, including care and extra care in the private sector, or the public sector, including residential homes, including nursing homes, and basically the census showed in 2016 that the demand is changing. The proportion of over-80s and over-90s in care homes is going down. All these things need to be taken into account, and the next administration does not need to be like this one, which did very little in terms of progressing the 1115 solution to adult social care. The point that Ms Edge made in the general debate last month was a very valuable one. There could well be a situation that has developed in the last five years, which is that the Government’s huge Government investment in Summerhill, and now up in a replacement in Ramsey, has actually crowded out the private sector and is making it impossible for social enterprises, like the Corrin 1120 Memorial Home and the Grest Home in the north, and the Ellan Vannin memorial home in Douglas to carry on, because they do not have access to the same sort of funds for capital projects and for refurbishment, and they do not have access to the same level of budgets for support. So some of the issues that I put on the table to make positive progress just so that people out there can hear it was one of the great things that came out of the COVID-19 response was the 1125 CHARRT team – the Care Home Assessment and Rapid Response Team – which can be involved in advanced care planning, alongside all the things like infection control and COVID response planning. I do hope that that new CHARRT team of people, who I know have already been into the Corrin Memorial Home, can actually be part of the solution, because one of the biggest issues that they have in that place at the moment is being able to afford, in a way, management and suitably 1130 qualified staff, given the revenue they have coming in. So I do hope that the CHARRT response team, that was put in place a bit too late for Abbotswood unfortunately, but it is now there and is working really well and has, I understand, provided valuable service in Peel, can actually go in there further and can be part of the transition. The second point is it was being presented at the public meeting yesterday as if the Attorney 1135 General’s Chambers had given advice to the trustees that they needed to corporatise. They needed to corporatise and to put it in that form. Ellan Vannin memorial home is not in corporate form. It is actually still run by the trustees. Likewise with the Grest Home up in the north, and I

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would hope that there is no misunderstanding about this. We do not need to corporatise, which obviously makes it easier to liquidate an organisation without threatening the underlying assets 1140 and the Trust itself, but I hope that we do have a future for social enterprise and there can be a form whereby we encourage the Ellan Vannin Home and the Grest Home, and in fact even perhaps new homes, to carry on existing, providing these difficult services in a way including social enterprise structures, like trusts, unlike companies limited by guarantee, perhaps. So finally, in closing, another body has been missing in much of the discussion to date, which I 1145 hope can be instrumental in moving us forward. Since 1st April, we have had a wonderful board at Manx Care. We have got a wonderful new Director of Social Care who is now in place, and I really do hope that they can be the missing ingredient to knock heads together, not to blame anybody, but to move forward across the Island for a better situation for care, extra care, care in the community, at home ideally, perhaps sometimes with care and extra care, and when it is 1150 necessary inside residential facilities and perhaps ultimately also in nursing home facilities. With that, I hope that we can all support unanimously the excellent motion brought by Mrs Lord-Brennan, amended by Mr Henderson, Mr Ashford and Ms Edge, and that we actually do something now for the people that really matter, the residents, and then, ultimately, for all of us, because we will all get old, we hope. (Laughter) 1155 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska.

Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President, and I would also like to thank my colleague in Council for bringing this matter to us today. It is such an important matter that affects probably every 1160 family in the Isle of Man in terms of how we go forward. I think we ought to also remember that the people in the Corrin Home, at the moment, this is their home, it is their world, and when we talk about trying to relocate these people, moving home for anybody is a very stressful time, so moving from your world can actually have such repercussions that, whenever that might happen, it has got to be handled so sensitively, talking 1165 to the people involved and their families, and also we have the staff at the home. Part of the Programme for Government has always been, in this administration, ‘an inclusive and caring’ Island, and I think the debate that has happened today is demonstrating the care that this Hon. Court feels for people placed in this very difficult situation. Through the COVID experience also, there is an extra layer of fragility, in that people have been 1170 confined in their homes and in places like the Corrin Home without seeing their loved ones for such a long time that again it adds that extra level of compassion and sensitivity that needs to be thought about in this place. I also, as I was listening to the very interesting debate, identified with my hon. colleague from Ramsey, Mr Hooper, when the questions that came to my mind were what has led to this? How 1175 long has it taken for this to become evident? What level of communication has gone on? When I have looked at the inspection regime, annual inspections have to take place and that can be looking at the standard of care, the fabric, the capability of good quality care happening in these places. And one of the fundamental aspects of all life is communication. So what level of communication and support has gone on? 1180 The Corrin Home has obviously provided a very caring environment for many years and is highly valued by the local community in the west. We have to be mindful that there is nothing like it in the west and when you have lived in the west all your life, you have a right to stay there. I, as have others, have seen people located to remote parts of the Island, they may have one partner, one husband/wife who cannot drive. How do you get to visit your loved one? Sometimes it is not 1185 actually possible and you cannot even get a bus there and back in the same day. So all these ingredients come into the mix, and we are not moving commodities around. We are actually trying to sensitively find homes for people if they cannot stay in this place. I would also like to support the amendments that have come forward from Mr Ashford, as amended by my colleague, Mr Henderson, and then, as Ms Edge has said, the addition will be does ______2094 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

1190 this really have to happen? Can we work together to try and find alternative solutions? Sometimes buildings can be dated and it is very difficult to remodel without a great deal of expense. But hearing that the community wants to help, that there is a capability of reaching out and actually combining forces to try and find a solution, I would welcome that approach. With that, Mr President, I just would like to support and thank again my hon. colleague for 1195 bringing this motion, which obviously, by the time taken, it is a very important matter for the whole of the Island community. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member for Ayre and Michael, Mr Cannan. 1200 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Thank you, Mr President. I welcome the debate today, the motion that was brought by the Member of the Legislative Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, and indeed the amendments that have been brought subsequently. There is a time and a place for Tynwald occasionally to flex its collective muscle and today is 1205 one of those days, in a bid to bring about some proper resolution to this most unsatisfactory of situations. The reason I welcome the motions is because I believe there are a number of factors that need bringing to the fore, but of course at the very heart of this is the protection of the residents, the people who are currently living in their home, which is the Corrin Home at Peel. But we need to 1210 understand properly, openly and transparently, in these situations, particularly when one is discussing a charitable trust that has been in existence for some considerable time, and indeed has been at the heart of the provision of residential care in Peel, exactly what has happened – and three months is simply not enough time. I would very much hope the next few months will reveal properly and openly and transparently 1215 and publicly the true state of the finances surrounding the Corrin Home; I would also like to know and will take a great deal of interest in understanding the quality of the infrastructure of the Corrin Home; and also, finally, what are the options available to the trustees but also to the community as well as to the Department in terms of retaining this vital piece of infrastructure for the people of Peel, the people of the west and, indeed, the people of this Island. 1220 These types of organisations should not be given up without a fight and without a thorough examination of the options and the way this has come about, the shortness of time available, the lack of transparency around certain elements of the Corrin Home. This needs to be dealt with and that is entirely why Tynwald today should be flexing its collective muscle to start to bring about some understanding around that. 1225 I just wanted to make two final points in terms of the Treasury’s role. We will work with the Department to ensure that appropriate funding is given, to ensure that we can find a solution as quickly as possible. What I would point out to Hon. Members and indeed to everybody involved, is that it is important still that we work now to unpick this, understand both what has happened but also to understand what the options are for the future as quickly as possible, because we will 1230 still create a level of uncertainty. Ideally, we need to find a resolution and work to find a resolution as quickly as possible. That is why I do welcome the fact that this is definitely going to be back on the table again for those present in October to debate, but we will work to ensure from our perspective that the financial element is both provided to reach the right solution and also that Treasury takes a proper view of any further future financial commitments that are going to be 1235 potentially required, whatever the outcomes are. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to reply.

1240 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President.

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I do not need to sum up, you will be glad to know, really because I think the last five speakers, from Mrs Barber, Mr Thomas, Mrs Corlett and Minister Cannan, they have done that for me, so I do not really need to sum up. The only thing I would say is that I would absolutely thank so much all Hon. Members for their 1245 support; in particular, the Minister’s support, especially the Treasury Minister for his support and commitment, as he just outlined there, to work with the Department. I am absolutely humbled by that and I am absolutely sure that the people at the Corrin Home, who will be listening, will be incredibly grateful, along with the people in Peel and of the west. Today Tynwald has shown compassion and that is what is needed, and I will now look to 1250 Government because I believe it is a whole-Government issue and I will look to the Corrin Home trustees and directors, too, to co-operate in the same spirit in the interests of people now and in the future for and with real Manx care. Thank you, Mr President. I beg to move.

1255 Several Members: Hear, hear.

Two Members: Well said!

The President: Hon. Members, I put to the Court the motion in the name of Mrs Lord Brennan. 1260 First, I put the amendment in the name of Mr Ashford. Those in favour of the amendment, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I put then to Mr Ashford’s amendment, the amendment moved by Mr Henderson. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Finally, I put the amendment in the name of Ms Edge. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. 1265 The ayes have it. The ayes have it. I put the substantive motion, as amended. Those in favour, say aye –

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 23, Noes 0

FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford None Mr Baker Mrs Barber Mr Boot Mrs Caine Mr Callister Mr Cannan Mrs Christian Mrs Corlett Mr Cregeen Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Peake Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Shimmins Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas

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The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys, 23 for, none against.

In the Council – Ayes 8, Noes 0

FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill None Mr Henderson The Lord Bishop Mrs Lord-Brennan Mrs Maska Mr Mercer Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: And in the Council 8 for, none against. The motion carries unanimously. Thank you, Hon. Members.

Question of Urgent Public Importance

CHIEF MINISTER

COVID-19 vaccines for over-50s – Reducing dose intervals

The Hon Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Chief Minister:

Whether the Isle of Man will follow the practice in the United Kingdom, announced on Friday 14th May, and reduce the interval between first and second doses of the COVID-19 vaccine for those over 50 years of age?

The President: We will now deal with the Order Paper for today, and I have allowed Ms Edge 1270 to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care an Urgent Question, of which you have received advance notice by email. Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 1275 I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care whether the Isle of Man will follow the practice in the United Kingdom announced on Friday 14th May and reduce the interval between first and second doses of the COVID-19 vaccine for those over 50 years of age? Thank you, Mr President.

1280 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Ashford.

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Following the announcement from the United Kingdom government last Friday the DHSC have reviewed the options around vaccination appointments on-Island for the over-50s. The UK 1285 themselves have confirmed that this decision is to help protect against the variant as a result of the spike in the cases of B1.617.2, the ‘Indian variant’, following updated advice from the independent experts at the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation. However, the Isle of Man vaccination programme is much further ahead with over 82% of all adults, having received ______2097 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

their first dose with the second doses for all over-50s already booked to be completed in early 1290 July. In line with the JCVI advice to the UK, the options to bring forward the over-50s second dose have been considered against the supplies that we have. There is little scope to bring forward second doses in line with supply expected, but bearing in mind our baseline vaccination position, the expectation that all second doses for the over-50s will have been administered by early July, 1295 which is ahead of the UK planning, a manual change of 18,000 appointments which would be required, DHSC will maintain the current policy because there is also very little movement in supply that would allow us to bring this forward.

The President: Supplementary question, Ms Edge. 1300 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. So the Minister advises that all over-50s on the Island will be vaccinated by early July, and clearly, obviously, we are moving towards our borders being open, so we are not offering protection against the Indian variant which has been recommended by JCVI, which is to bring it 1305 forward to eight weeks. So why suddenly are we moving away from the JCVI recommendation on this particular bringing forward to eight weeks? Thank you, Mr President.

1310 The President: Reply, sir.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I thought I answered that in the original. Our supply does not allow for it, Mr President. We very tightly booked to ensure very little vaccine wastage in this process. 1315 The Hon. Member may also be aware, Mr President, if you remember, we did not go, like the UK did from the very start, with a 12-week gap. We actually initially only had the four-week gap, we then moved to 10 and we then moved some to 12 after that. So in relation to those that are aged over 50, we will actually, even with the UK moving appointments forward, have our over-50s population second vaccinated before the UK. 1320 The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I am sure the Minister is aware the EU has recently made a decision, the EU’s medicines 1325 regulator has made a decision, to extend the time that the Pfizer vaccine can be stored safely post opening the vial from five days to a month. If the MHRA chooses to follow this situation will that have any impact on the way the supplies are distributed on the Isle of Man, and will that have an impact on his decision in this issue?

1330 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to say yes, but unfortunately the answer is actually no, because we have always, being a small jurisdiction, managed Pfizer very carefully anyway. The amount of supply that Pfizer 1335 makes up is I think roughly around about 38% of the overall supply of vaccine received – it is between 38% and 40%. In terms of the storage, we set up a managed storage facility for it, so although it will obviously make things much easier in terms of the transportation and storage, it will not change the amount that we have received or the amount that we will deliver, because being a small jurisdiction, thankfully, we have not had the same logistical problems that the UK 1340 has encountered with Pfizer. ______2098 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. The Minister mentioned changed scientific advice in his original Answer. Does the Minister get 1345 the notice or information about that changed advice at the same time as Minister Hancock, and if not, how much does he estimate the delay and what causes the delay?

The President: Minister to reply.

1350 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I believe there is a slight delay of a couple of days because the UK Department of Health then forwards it on to the Crown Dependencies, but we do receive the advice. I have got to say the UK Department for Health and Social Care has been very much engaged, both at a political and officer level, with the UK and we do receive that advice both from the JCVI and the MHRA as well. 1355 So the delay is a matter of about 48 hours, normally.

The President: Final supplementary, I think, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 1360 Our vaccine stock at present time, Mr President, is 12,366. I just wonder if the Minister could say how many of those will be allocated to second dose for over-50s; and has the Minister requested any additional vaccines from the UK? Clearly they are suddenly putting extra out in certain areas of the north-west. Also, could the Minister advise are there going to be any changes to the travel to the UK 1365 because of the Indian variant? I am sure he would probably have to have his crystal ball, but he sometimes has that! Will there be any restrictions on our people if they have not had that second vaccine and they are over the age of 50? Thank you, Mr President.

1370 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Taking the travel one first, we are within the Common Travel Area with the UK, and there has never been imposed by the UK travel restrictions in that way. My crystal ball is very foggy these days, Mr President – sometimes it feels like it is getting foggier by the day – but I do not see the UK imposing restrictions of Isle of Man residents travelling from the Island into the UK. 1375 In terms of the stock held, in fact near enough that entire stock is for second doses for people over the age of 50 because at the moment, for the next six to eight weeks, as I have publicly announced before, all that stock is being directed towards second doses, Mr President.

______2099 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Questions for Oral Answer

CHIEF MINISTER

1. Vehicle engines idling – Prohibition

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Henderson, to ask the Chief Minister (Minister for the Cabinet Office):

What plans he has to take powers to prohibit drivers of vehicles from leaving the engines running when there is no good reason to do so; and whether such plans include establishing a scale of fixed penalties for such behaviour?

The President: We turn now to the Order Paper, the Question Paper, and Question 1, 1380 Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I beg to ask the Ard-shirveishagh what plans he has to take powers to prohibit drivers of 1385 vehicles from leaving their engines running when there is no good reason to do so and whether such plans include establishing a scale of fixed penalties for such behaviour?

The President: I call on the Chief Minister to reply.

1390 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. I am pleased to tell the Member of Council that it is already an offence to leave the engine of a vehicle running without cause. Rule 123 of the Manx Highway Code is headed ‘The driver and the environment’, and it explains that you must not ‘leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running’ or leave the engine running for longer than is necessary when the ‘vehicle is 1395 stationary on a public road.’ Drivers are advised that it is acceptable to leave the engine running whilst waiting in traffic. Regulations 18 and 64 of the Road Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) Regulations 2012 put these requirements into law on the Island. A breach of these requirements is enforceable under section 54 of the Road Traffic Act 1985 as a summary offence. The Minister for Infrastructure has assured me that his Department is 1400 working with partner agencies in the Road Safety Partnership to prioritise future legislative changes needed for motoring matters and that he is happy to review the position in respect of fixed penalties for these offences.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Henderson. 1405 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Ard-shirveishagh for his positive Answer there, and that is really good news. I just want him to clarify that the Highway Code is just that: a code. He did mention that some of the issues with engines left idling for no reason are actually codified under Manx law now, the Road 1410 Traffic Act, if he could confirm that. Could he also confirm that there has actually been no on-the-spot fines or prosecutions for anyone, as far as I can remember, for leaving the engine of a vehicle in idle for no good reason? And could he just reconfirm that his officers in whichever Department are going to have a look in respect of review of the legislation and updating it in any case?

______2100 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

1415 The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. I believe the maximum fine for these offences is £500. Obviously it is the Department of Infrastructure that deals with the legislation. I am also advised that the Road Traffic Legislation 1420 (Amendment) Bill 2020, when given Royal Assent, will provide the Department of Infrastructure with greater flexibility in respect of penalties in this matter.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson.

1425 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Ard-shirveishagh again for that answer, but could I put it to him that it is all well and good giving the Department of Infrastructure the powers, but who is going to do the fining and spot checks? We need to know that, if that has been worked up, and we need to know if it is going to be based on what we see in many other countries round the globe, such as America and 1430 Canada, where even if you are parked outside a shop for more than two minutes in particular cases in the United States, you will get an on-the-spot penalty point even from a traffic police officer; and would he agree that is in respect of pollution in the cities?

The President: Chief Minister. 1435 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I fully support where the Hon. Member of Council is coming from, and I am sure the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs will take the feedback from the Hon. Member, and I am sure the support of all Members of Tynwald, to ensure that this is looked into. 1440 It was remiss of me not to answer one of his parts of his question when he said how many cases there had been of prosecutions. I obviously do not know that answer, but I will ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs to look into that and advise Hon. Members. Thank you, Mr President.

1445 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Corlett.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Could I ask the Chief Minister is any consideration being given to creating specific no-idling zones surrounding schools? 1450 Mr Henderson: Hear, hear.

The President: Chief Minister.

1455 The Chief Minister: Thank you. I do not know about … I mean, you should not do it full stop, and I know the schools have a policy when they … well, certainly in Marown School, of which my children have all been to, they take that very seriously, having cars idling and therefore I would have thought that that would be the policy. It is, as I say, in our Code, in our Road Vehicles (Maintenance and Use) Regulations, 1460 Regs 18 and 64. It is there, it is illegal, there is a fine for it, and I would hope that going forward – and if it is not already happening, it is disappointing – that people are prosecuted and given spot fines if they have left a vehicle running. I have to say that it might have been something you saw on a regular basis, but I am pleased to say I do not see it as much as we used to. 1465

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2. Steam Packet Company review– Audit Advisory report

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Chief Minister:

Whether he has received the report by Audit Advisory on the review of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, commissioned by Cabinet Office in March 2021?

The President: Question 2, Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister whether he has received the report by Audit Advisory on 1470 the review of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company, commissioned by Cabinet Office in March 2021?

The President: Chief Minister to reply.

1475 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you very much, Mr President. Prior to the finalisation of the report by the Director of Audit Advisory, a draft copy of the report was issued by him to those that have contributed to the review, both on Friday 7th May, to allow for highlighting, if necessary, any factual inaccuracies or misinterpretations of facts and to consider the practicality of recommendations. 1480 Following this, the Director of Audit Advisory finalised the report and I received it on Friday 14th May. I took the weekend to read the report and it will be considered by the Council of Ministers on Thursday. I intend to share the report with Members and publish it on Friday.

The President: Mrs Lord-Brennan. 1485 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. The Chief Minister mentioned checking of recommendations there. I am conscious that the report was commissioned by Cabinet Office. In publishing the report, will it be published in full, and will it be published showing if there were any changes to recommendations? And will it be 1490 published in the form that it came to the Council of Ministers in – or that it comes to the Council of Ministers in?

The President: Chief Minister to reply.

1495 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. As stated, the report was circulated to those that had contributed to the review to enable the highlighting, if necessary, of any factual inaccuracies or misinterpretation of facts and to consider the practicality of the recommendations. That is not something I get involved with. I only see the report when it is finished. This is standard procedure and it was for the Director of Audit Advisory 1500 to determine what, if any changes, should be made prior to the finalisation of the report and issuing it to myself. So I do not get to say, ‘You can’t say that, you can’t put that in’ – I just get the final report and once I have shared it with the Council of Ministers and we have looked at the recommendations we will be sharing the report as given to me, the full report, with all Hon. Members and members 1505 of the public.

The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. ______2102 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

1510 Can the Chief Minister just confirm again that the report went in a draft form to some individuals and it has then come back to him in a format that has possibly changed? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister. 1515 The Chief Minister: I am sorry, Mr President. I am getting a little bit cross that people are trying to insinuate that the report has been twisted, and I say time and time again, I do not get to see the report until it is finished. It is a standard procedure that if you take evidence from people and you do a report, you give them the courtesy 1520 of looking at the report to see if there is anything that you, the report writer, have accidentally misinterpreted. That can be challenged by the people who have given evidence. Once that is done, if those challenges are successful, then it is up to the Director of Audit to decide whether he alters the report or not. I have no influence in the altering of the report in any way, shape or form. I only get to see the final report. 1525 The President: Supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. Just so that I am clear that the report, when it is published and sent to Members, will be in an 1530 unredacted format? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Chief Minister.

1535 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I have not seen anything that needs to be redacted, so I would sincerely hope that is the case.

3. Public Health Act COVID-19 powers – CoMin retention after 25th June 2021

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Chief Minister:

What powers and ability to direct under the Public Health Act in relation to COVID-19 the Council of Ministers will seek to retain for the period after 25th June 2021 until (a) the dissolution of Keys and (b) the formation of the new administration?

The President: Question 3, Mrs Lord-Brennan again.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. 1540 I would like to ask the Chief Minister what powers and ability to direct under the Public Health Act and in relation to COVID-19 the Council of Ministers will seek to retain for the period after 25th June 2021 until (a) the dissolution of Keys and (b) the formation of the new administration?

The President: Chief Minister to reply. 1545 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. In respect of managing the pandemic, Government has already expressed the need to withdraw from people’s lives as much as possible. However, the pandemic is not over and

______2103 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

potential threats remain, including new variants of concern that may require action to mitigate 1550 over the summer period when and if they emerge. We all hope that no such threat develops. However, we must be prepared to deal with this should it happen. In such circumstances, the Government retains the responsibility to govern during this period and the first responsibility of Government is the safety of its people, which means that powers intended to be retained will be with the conduct of persons on the Island, 1555 along with control of entry to the Island where necessary, utilising lawful powers under the Public Health Act 1990. This is the sensible and responsible thing for Government to do. With respect to the Public Health Protection (Coronavirus) Regulations 2020, at this time it is the intention to bring the Regulations back to Tynwald, with a view to extend them through the summer period into the next administration. Subject to Tynwald approval, I believe it continues 1560 to be a necessary and proportionate measure to ensure that Government retains the ability to properly manage the pandemic as we enter the autumn and winter period. Hon. Members, we all continue to live through unprecedented times, and whilst I recognise the importance of scrutiny in Government decision making, I also recognise the need for Government to be able to continue to act appropriately in continuing to manage the ongoing 1565 threat of COVID-19.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Chief Minister for his Answer, 1570 because of course 25th June is when the current Regulations expire. Those Regulations have wide powers to do everything that was included in the previous lockdown. So that is restriction of movement, the ability to close businesses, as well as everything else that are certainly exceptional powers, but not normal powers. Given the lack of ability for accountability over the summer period, and given that there will 1575 certainly be a new administration after the General Election, is the Chief Minister prepared to list specifically which are the necessary powers that should be retained? Will it be all the powers that Government will seek to retain under the existing Public Health Act, and does he think that that is appropriate considering we are in a new phase and considering there will be severe limits on the ability for Tynwald scrutiny and, indeed, accountability? 1580 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1585 Well, really, it is up to the will of Tynwald. I am bringing the amendments back to Tynwald in June for Tynwald to decide, but you cannot say, well, we are all going to fight an election and no decisions can be made. So if there is a new variant, Heaven forbid, come along that bypasses the vaccine, you are going to leave the Island defenceless because you do not want anything to happen until the new House sits. 1590 But I think it is worth pointing out, Mr President, that Tynwald can sit right up until, should there be an extra sitting of Tynwald needed, Tynwald can be convened by your good self up until 12th August, the date it dissolves, six weeks before the General Election. So if there was an urgent need, then of course we would have to call an emergency Tynwald to discuss this. In the interim period, there are laws that enable us to pass legislation, but then the new appointed Tynwald 1595 Court would then decide whether it accepted that or not. So it is not for the length of period that the Hon. Member is suggesting. It is a much shorter period that legislation may be brought in. None of us wants to bring it in, but I think it pertinent that the Government have that ability during the period that Tynwald has been dissolved, Mr President.

1600 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. ______2104 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Mr Thomas: Thank you very much, Mr President. I am hesitant to bring this issue, but it has been raised. So between 12th August and 23rd September, there will be no House of Keys. So therefore, the Public Health Act powers of review by Tynwald Court cannot be fulfilled in legal terms. Has the Chief Minister considered this; 1605 has the Council of Ministers considered this; has advice been sought about the implications of that? Secondly, is it the Council of Ministers’ intention then to govern public health emergency by directions made under Regulations while the House of Keys, and Tynwald therefore, is not in existence? 1610 Thirdly, does the Chief Minister agree with me, given the excellent legal representation on the Emergency Advisory Group that this issue should be considered pronto by the Emergency Advisory Group, who have actually, (Ms Edge: Hear, hear.) I think they have had members of that Group who have already been considering it for some time?

1615 The President: Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I think before I go into a rather lengthy answer on the legal elements of this, it is worth pointing out that ever since the Council of Ministers or Manx Government has been in formation, this 1620 period has existed, and if a major problem came about the Council of Ministers would go with the legislation that enabled it to carry on the good governance of the Island. So with respect to amendments, if any were required during the summer period, it is perhaps helpful to remind Hon. Members of the procedure. The Regulations are made under sections 51B, 51C and 51F of the Public Health Act 1990. In terms of Tynwald control, section 51Q of the Act 1625 confirms that the Regulations must not come into operation unless they are approved by Tynwald or if the person making the Regulations is of the opinion that, by reasons of urgency, it is necessary for them to come into operation before they are approved. And that is the urgency procedure. However, if made under the urgency procedure, the Regulations must be laid before Tynwald after it is made. If not, the Regulations will cease to have effect if not approved within 14 days 1630 from the date made, unless approved with or without amendment. If Tynwald is not due to sit or it is not reasonably practical for Tynwald to sit, then Mr President must summon Tynwald to sit on the earliest day it is capable of sitting thereafter. Where this applies, the Regulations would therefore continue in operation pending approval or otherwise by Tynwald. If the Regulations or amendments or replacements thereof are not considered to be 1635 urgent, any Regulations or amending Regulations made would fall if the urgency procedure is not used and Tynwald does not approve them. If the urgency procedure is used, the Regulations or amending Regulations would continue in operation until such time as Tynwald is due to sit and/or it is practical for Tynwald to sit. The Regulations would in that case continue in operation pending approval at the first available sitting of Tynwald. 1640 The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Chief Minister not agree, though, that the normal procedures that cover the period 1645 when the Keys is not in existence are different in the sense that the Public Health Act has this extra approval process which was only introduced by amendment in the Legislative Council brought by Mrs Lord-Brennan, from memory, in recent months to do with COVID-19. So therefore, does the Chief Minister agree that Government has to be very careful not to act to the detriment of the people’s perception of how the constitution works in the Isle of Man? 1650 The President: Chief Minister.

______2105 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The Chief Minister: I think there is a storm in a teacup. The Council of Ministers are not going to bring in health regulations unless there is another 1655 emergency in the time when Tynwald is no longer sitting. That would happen for any, the next administration, the previous administrations, this is what would happen. Tynwald would then, of course, at their first available sitting overturn it. I am bringing this to Tynwald in June; if Members do not want to give any protection to the people of the Isle of Man for a COVID resurgence or new variant in the time of purdah, whatever 1660 one wants to call it, then that is up to Tynwald Members – on your heads be it. But these are just normal powers, Mr President, that I said I am bringing to Tynwald in June. It will be for a short period of no more than six weeks, worst-case scenario; worst-case if we have to go down that route. It is just sensible to plan accordingly, I think.

1665 The President: Mrs Lord-Brennan, final supplementary.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. Perhaps would the Chief Minister undertake to write to all Members as to what the intention is, building on what he said? Only my understanding is, and I have not checked it this morning, 1670 that Regulations being brought through on an urgent procedure, which sounds like potentially outside the gap Mr Thomas has mentioned, would not be something that would need to be brought to the Court in June. That would be something that Government could do separately anyway, but then Tynwald would have to be recalled. So I guess I wonder if the Chief Minister would let us know whether we are going to go for a 1675 fresh set of renewed Regulations in the form that we have now in June, as to whether we will expect that, or rather instead, we would be perhaps expecting there not to be those Regulations and for Government to perhaps, if needed, bring in Regulations under the urgent procedure, if it needed to over the summer period. Because my understanding is that those are two separate aspects, but I may be wrong. 1680 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 1685 I hope I have explained it, it obviously is on Hansard. I am happy to share the information which obviously I have been given from a legal point of view. I do not have the legal qualifications to adjudicate on this, but it is the intention to bring the Regulations back to Tynwald with a view to extending them through the summer period into the next administration, subject to Tynwald approval. 1690 I think that is as clear as can possibly be, Mr President. We hope not to have to make anything, but I am glad the learned Attorney General can answer.

The President: Mr Attorney.

1695 The Attorney General: Sorry, Mr President, if I could just add very briefly, as the Chief Minister has indicated, because he is reading from the advice which has been provided, if it is necessary to make Regulations using the emergency procedure, which the Hon. Mrs Lord-Brennan is referring to, the Regulations must be laid before Tynwald after it is made. If not, the Regulations will cease to have effect if not approved in 14 days from the date made, unless approved with or without 1700 amendment. I repeat what the Chief Minister said: if Tynwald is not due to sit, or it is not reasonably practical for Tynwald to sit, then Mr President must summon Tynwald to sit on the earliest day it is capable of sitting thereafter. So Tynwald is concerned if the urgency procedure is used. Thank you. ______2106 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

1705 The President: Thank you, learned Attorney. Hon. Members, the Court will now adjourn until 2.30 p.m.

The Court adjourned at 1.05 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 2.31 p.m.

TREASURY

4. Telephone calls to Treasury – Calls recorded; time kept for

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Which telephone calls from customers Treasury records; and for how long Treasury keeps these records?

The President: Fastyr mie, good afternoon, Hon. Members.

1710 Members: Fastyr mie, Eaghtyrane.

The President: Please be seated. We will see if we can make good progress through what is quite a long Question Paper this afternoon, and we start with Question 4, Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, 1715 Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister, which telephone calls from customers Treasury records; and for how long Treasury keeps these records? 1720 The President: Minister for Treasury, Mr Cannan to reply.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, telephone calls are only recorded in two Divisions of Treasury: Income Tax and Social Security. Telephone calls to the Income Tax 1725 Division customer service team are recorded and retained for a period of six months. Calls to Social Security operational areas are recorded and retained for a period of six weeks.

The President: Supplementary.

1730 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Given those calls are recorded, is there any possibility for the clients to get copies of the recordings or do they remain under the ownership of the Treasury?

The President: Mr Cannan. 1735 The Minister: In accordance with GDPR, individuals can, in most cases, access personal data held by the Department and can do so by contacting the Department and requesting access to a recorded call.

______2107 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

5. Businesses owing Government debts – Number refused financial support during lockdowns

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

How many businesses Treasury refused financial support to during each lockdown because of issues related to the amount of (a) VAT owed and (b) other non-payment issues?

1740 The President: Question 5, again, Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Treasury Minister how many businesses Treasury refused financial support to during each lockdown because of issues related to the amount of (a) VAT owed and (b) 1745 other non-payment issues?

The President: Mr Cannan to reply.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the current number of businesses 1750 that have been refused support for circuit-break lockdown Coronavirus Business Support Scheme and Business Premises Support Scheme as a result of these issues is 52 for VAT owed issues and 114 for other non-payment issues.

The President: Supplementary. 1755 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. One constituent has suggested that despite an agreed repayment plan for VAT owing being in place and activated, having made a payment the support was rejected because all the VAT had not been actually paid at that point. Is that possibly the case or would that be something you need 1760 to look at in private?

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Well, I cannot speak for individual cases, Mr President, but the applications 1765 refused for VAT owed were on the basis of the applicants having aged VAT arrears and/or the applicant not complying with the VAT conditions set out in the scheme applied for – in other words, having VAT arrears prior to the current crisis.

6. Breathing space scheme for debt – Plans to introduce

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Whether he has considered introducing a breathing space scheme similar to the UK’s to assist people who have fallen into debt?

The President: Question 6, Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.

1770 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President.

______2108 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

I would like to ask the Treasury Minister whether he has considered introducing a breathing space scheme similar to the UK’s to assist people who have fallen into debt?

The President: Minister to reply. 1775 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, the Debt Respite Scheme (Breathing Space) aims to help relieve some of the pressure when dealing with creditors in the UK. This gives individuals time to focus on getting debt advice and setting up an appropriate debt solution without worrying about getting chased for payments or incurring extra charges. This is a free 1780 scheme, which was launched by the UK government on 4th May 2021. To introduce a similar scheme along the same lines as the debt respite scheme in the UK would, of course, be something that would need to be debated and agreed by Tynwald. Given current timescales and legislation currently programmed for both sets of Houses and indeed Tynwald itself, I currently have no plans to introduce a similar scheme on the Island at this time. 1785 The President: Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. It is reassuring to hear the Treasury Minister knows what I am talking about; it is disappointing 1790 that he is not willing to consider something like this. Would the Treasury Minister accept that coming out of the long period of coronavirus pandemic that we have had on the Isle of Man there are a lot of people who may be struggling, may be finding it difficult to deal with debt they have built up during that period, and would the Treasury Minister agree that whilst the OFT’s debt counselling support system is a very good and 1795 very positive addition to the support systems we have on the Isle of Man, some people need a bit more assistance than is provided simply by being given advice over the telephone? I would urge the Treasury Minister to reconsider a scheme like this for the Island.

The President: Treasury Minister. 1800 The Minister: I did not say I would not consider it, Mr President; I just have no plans to introduce such a scheme at this time. I think given it has only just recently been introduced in the UK, there is some time for reflection. I am not convinced we have the same level of debt, and of course the Hon. Member 1805 will recognise through his work with the Economic Recovery Group that we have of course set up coronavirus support loan schemes, both with existing bankers and 100%-backed working loan schemes with the Conister and Santander banks as well. So there is relief potentially out there for those who have got debt at the moment. It is certainly an issue that we need to be very considerate of and, Mr President, it is something that I would say that we need to look carefully 1810 at and consider as it is rolled out across the UK.

The President: Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: The Treasury Minister has just said that he is not convinced we have the same 1815 level of debt as they do in the UK. Could he advise where he has got the figures for that and how he has managed to justify that statement?

The President: Treasury Minister.

1820 The Minister: I think what I was saying, Mr President, was I would suggest I was not convinced that we had the same level of debt problems, but I have not got any specific figures. So I think it is something that we need to keep a close eye on. But I think there is a lot going on on the Island ______2109 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

at the moment and, as I have said, Mr President, it is not something that we are not considering; indeed, we have taken steps throughout the course of this pandemic to try and give people 1825 options, businesses options, to try and cope with their debts.

Question 7 to be answered in writing

The President: Question 7, Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I had actually intended to table the Question for Written Answer so I am still happy to do that. 1830 The President: Yes, you had advised me. My apologies.

POLICY AND REFORM

8. Telecommunications mast planning applications – Relevant non-planning considerations

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

What non-planning telecommunications policies, strategies and plans are relevant when a telecommunications mast planning application is considered?

The President: Question 8, Mr Thomas, Hon. Member.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 1835 I beg leave to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform what non-planning telecommunications policies, strategies and plans are relevant when a telecommunications mast planning application is considered?

The President: I call on the Minister for Policy and Reform, Mr Harmer. 1840 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. Section 10 of the Town and Country Planning Act addresses the statutory provisions for determining planning applications. In particular, section 10(4) sets out that:

In dealing with an application for planning approval or an application under subsection (3), the Department shall have regard to – (a) the provisions of the development plan, so far as material to the application, (b) any relevant statement of planning policy under section 3; (c) such other considerations as may be specified for the purpose of this subsection in a development order or a development procedure order, so far as material to the application; and (d) all other material considerations.

The concept of ‘other material considerations’ can theoretically include non-planning 1845 documents. In the case of telecommunications development, the National Telecommunications Strategy is a relevant non-planning document that guides telecommunications policy on the Island and sets out the Government’s commitments.

______2110 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Mr Thomas. 1850 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. My question was based on the email request that the planning officer considering the application for the telecoms mast in Woodbourne Lane has actually been sending to people. So can the Minister clarify whether the only document that he is expecting a response about is the 1855 telecommunications policy? Surely there must be other information about the strategic national need for specific telecoms masts and so on?

The President: Minister to reply.

1860 The Minister: Thank you. As the Member points out, there is currently a planning application being considered for a telecommunications development on a vacant plot in Woodbourne Lane to the rear of 7 and 11 Woodbourne Villas and obviously the relevant planning application, they are consulting with that. I mean in terms of non-planning policies, as far as the policy is concerned, it is ‘other material 1865 considerations’, so in theory it is the National Telecommunications Strategy. Obviously, if there is other documentation that the Member thinks is relevant, then we can converse and look at that.

The President: Mr Thomas.

1870 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President, and to the Minister for these helpful answers. In fact I ask the Question of this Minister because it is quite hard to think who is responsible for identifying strategic national need for telecommunications infrastructure. Does the Minister agree with me that it is hard to establish strategic national need if nobody apparently in the public service has any register of what infrastructure there is, and what is used 1875 for that infrastructure? Does the Minister agree with me that we have a massive gap in terms of knowledge? We have knowledge about broadcast masts, but we do not have knowledge held in any central place about even what telecommunications mast infrastructure there is at the minute. Does the Minister agree with me that is a ridiculous situation?

1880 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you. I think a lot of the information is available – not available, is stored, but maybe not in the best place, but it is in public. Obviously that is an interesting concept; as I say, I am very happy to talk with the Member and look into it.

9. Latest inflation report – Transport data

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

What the basis is for the latest inflation report data in the Transport section?

1885 The President: Question 9, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform what the basis is for the latest inflation report data in the Transport section? ______2111 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

1890 The President: Mr Harmer to reply.

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. As each inflation rate has been made clear, including the one published in May 2021 relating to April 2021, air and sea fares continue to be excluded from the calculations. However, for the 1895 inflation report relating to May 2021 air and sea fares will be reinstated into the measure. Air and sea fares are collected at varying intervals for the future travel and taking into account the Exit Framework, which now means that all of these points are now after the expected move to unrestricted travel.

1900 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister, for that Answer. With regard to the weighting of each component, how is that decided? And with regard to the final column of the Transport section, there appears to be inaccuracy in the data. Is that the case?

The President: Minister to reply. 1905 The Minister: Okay. In terms of how the data is, it is obviously a weighted average. So it is the Household Income Survey and the Expenditure Survey, and following obviously the technical advice that we use, similar to the ONS for that type of information. Regarding the third part, again, if the Member can pinpoint where he thinks the inaccuracy is 1910 I will work with the Member. Thank you.

EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE

10. Hall Caine Creative Writing Competition – Return or replacement

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Whether the Hall Caine Creative Writing Competition will return; and whether his Department has plans to organise a replacement?

The President: Question 10, Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 1915 Before I ask the Question, I should perhaps just register a small interest in the Question, considering my children entered this competition last year and my boy has previously won a cash prize, (The Speaker: Ooh!) (Interjections) along with thousands of other children, I would say. (Laughter) But I would like to ask the Member for Education, Sport and Culture, whether the Hall Caine Creative Writing Competition will return; and whether the Department has plans to organise 1920 a replacement?

The President: I call on Member for the Department of Education on behalf of the Minister, Mrs Corlett.

1925 A Member of the Department of Education, Sport and Culture (Mrs Corlett): Mr President, I would like to thank the Hon. Member for Garff for her Question. Sir Thomas Henry Hall Caine was a British novelist, dramatist, short story writer, poet and critic of the late 19th and early 20th century. Although born in Runcorn, his father was Manx and at the ______2112 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

age of 17 he spent a year in Maughold as a schoolmaster. He settled back on the Island in 1895, 1930 and he sat from 1901 to 1908 as a Member of the House of Keys. The competition in his name was founded by Mrs Gloria Rukeyser, his great-granddaughter, and was first run in 2010-11. After a couple of years’ absence, the prize was relaunched under the auspices of Manx Litfest, working closely with Mrs Rukeyser and her family. The prize is open to all students of all ages who are in full-time education in the Isle of Man. They are invited to pen a 1935 short story, a memoir or the opening chapter of a novel. Judges are asked to look for strong characterisation, good narrative flow and, above all, imaginative storytelling. In the past the Department of Education, Sport and Culture’s role in relation to the Hall Caine Creative Writing Competition has been to promote and to encourage the competitions within our schools and UCM. Due to the pandemic this year, last year’s Manx Litfest was due to take place in 1940 September, but was cancelled. It is hoped that with the planned relaxation of our border restrictions this will be able to be rescheduled for later this year. Should this competition continue in the future, the Department is keen to promote and encourage it within our schools and within UCM.

1945 The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Member for that full history of the competition and Hall Caine. But I would ask, or question really, whether the Department is committed to this contest. It 1950 may have launched 11 years ago, it had several good years building up enormous amounts of support with, I believe, well over a thousand entries a year at its peak and, unfortunately, in a restructuring of Departments, an essential resource was moved, and the critical point I think to all this is that the competition became so big and so popular that it is a huge administrative task for somebody to run. However, with the Gloria Rukeyser support, from the Hall Caine family, is the 1955 Department just walking away, offloading it onto a charity that is already very busy putting on an excellent event, Manx Litfest, in September, and that in fact, when volunteers are having to drive around the schools to deliver the marketing material themselves for this, it does seem that the Department is not committed to this. I would ask the Member whether the Department would consider putting a dedicated 1960 administrative resource to support the competition for the future to ensure that children can continue to get that sense of pride they have in winning such a prestigious prize, a really good cash prize, and even having their work published in a book. Thank you.

1965 Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. First of all, I have to say that the Department has not been directly approached by the family or by Manx Litfest regarding their plans for the competition. As regards commitment, the Department is committed to promoting and encouraging it, but as the Hon. Member says, it is a huge administrative task and the Department is not able to administer the competition solely by 1970 itself, due to the resources required to run and to oversee it. Thank you.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Caine.

1975 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would say that is really disappointing to hear, because it seems to be a victim of its own success, and yet the Department would walk away, I find this really embarrassing for the Island, from a sponsor with that family connection to the literature and the history of Hall Caine. Does she feel that the Department actually does not have that much interest in the humanities, 1980 the modern foreign languages that are not going to be provided or expanded in any of the primary ______2113 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

schools any time soon, and walking away from this prestigious competition? Would she go back to the Department and consider if there is any more support the Department could put in to ensure that it continues?

1985 The President: Mrs Corlett.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. The Department is not walking away. As I say, as always, and as it has in the past, it is very committed to promoting and encouraging it. Administrate it … I think what I would have to say 1990 here is there has been no approach directly by Manx Litfest or the family to the Department and perhaps further discussion could take place with them. I will certainly go back to the Department and see what negotiations we could provide.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse. 1995 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Has the Department considered including information about such competitions on the Department’s website? Too many of these good news stories do not get the coverage they deserve. The Department could do a lot to energise such incredible initiatives. Too many of them 2000 just fade away. Thank you.

The President: Mrs Corlett.

2005 Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, I agree, and that – I mean, I have said it several times now – the Department is very keen to promote and to encourage children to take part. Obviously, the more that take part, the bigger administrative process that is, so it could become a victim of its own success. As I say, that is as far as the Department is able to say at the moment, because there has been no approach to 2010 operate any differently. Thank you.

The President: Final supplementary, Mrs Caine.

2015 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would just say to the Hon. Member, if the Department is so committed to promote and encourage this competition, why has all mention of it disappeared from the Government website? I could not find the previous winners, any details about the competition, or even any explanation why last year’s had not concluded. 2020 So if the Department is committed to promoting it, then perhaps we could start with replacing the pages and the previous winners and perhaps an announcement of when competition entries might open.

The President: Mrs Corlett. 2025 Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, I am absolutely certain that the Department will be well prepared to do that, but we need to know from Litfest and the family if this is going to take place and when it is going to take place. Thank you.

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11. School meals vouchers – TT week and summer holidays

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

Whether he has considered providing school meals vouchers in (a) TT week and (b) school summer holidays?

2030 The President: Question 11, Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Hon. Member standing in for the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture whether they have considered providing school meals vouchers in TT week and the school 2035 summer holidays? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: I call on the Member, Mrs Corlett, to reply.

2040 A Member for the Department of Education, Sport and Culture (Mrs Corlett): Thank you, Mr President. In July 2020 the Department of Education, Sport and Culture helped launch a school summer holiday food voucher scheme for the six weeks of the summer holidays. The reason for this scheme was due to the coronavirus pandemic and the fact that children and parents were facing 2045 an entirely unprecedented situation over that summer. To alleviate this, the Department continued to provide food vouchers covering the six-week holiday period. This was a specific measure to reflect the unique circumstances of the pandemic and at that time it was agreed that the scheme would not continue beyond the summer. This was a short-term measure to help families during a particularly difficult time. 2050 The Department of Education, Sport and Culture is empowered to provide food to pupils in attendance at school when those schools are open. Our powers to provide meals outside school time are constrained and that is why the summer holiday school food voucher system, which was approved by Treasury, was actually passed under the Financial Provisions and Currency Act of 2011, after being approved by Tynwald. 2055 When children returned to school in September 2020, free school meals were provided by the school meal services to those who were eligible. Following our positive progress in recovering from the pandemic, we do not currently have any plans to provide school meal vouchers in TT week or during this year’s summer holidays.

2060 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Hon. Member for that response. Just wondering, obviously since the pandemic, does she have the current numbers and has it increased, the amount of children that are on free school meals since obviously we have had 2065 COVID and there are a number of people unemployed?

The President: Mrs Corlett.

Mrs Corlett: Mr President, I am sorry, but I do not have that information with me. But I am 2070 very happy to circulate it to Hon. Members from the Department.

The President: Mr Speaker.

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The Speaker: Thank you. 2075 I am just wondering if the Department would be willing to undertake a retrospective study of the impact that this has had, not just in terms of the number of people that claimed it, but the difference that it made to those families, because I think that would be really useful information going forward.

2080 The President: Mrs Corlett.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, I think it is really important, that we do need to evaluate the impact of any short-term quick-fix sticking-plaster actions that we have taken, because evaluating whether we have put the 2085 resource in the right place in order to gain the impact that we require is hugely important because if resources are put in place in the wrong way, or in the wrong place, it can actually divert help away from those people who really need it the most.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper. 2090 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. It is surprising to hear the Department committing to undertake a review. I would have thought before making a decision about what to do over the TT period and the summer coming up that the Department would have already undertaken some kind of review as to the effectiveness of 2095 that support that was provided. Does the Department have any indication of what need is out there? We are still seeing significant numbers of people unemployed as a result of coronavirus. I think unemployment is at 2.8%, is the figure at the moment, the ILO estimate. We are seeing a lot of people still struggling to get back on their feet from suffering job losses or interruption to pay over the coronavirus 2100 pandemic and so for the Department to make a categorical statement that we are not doing this because we do not need it, is a bit bizarre when I am not aware of any kind of assessment of need that has been undertaken. So can the Member please take these comments on board and maybe go back to the Department and have a think again about this decision. 2105 The President: Mrs Corlett to reply.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Yes. When I say we need to evaluate, it is a broader issue; this just does not sit with Department 2110 of Education, Sport and Culture, this is a Government-wide issue. And the Hon. Member for Ramsey is absolutely right: it is identifying the what, where, how. What is the need; where is the need; how do we address that need? But that has to be done cross-departmentally on a much bigger scale. Obviously, DESC can contribute to that, but we are an Education, Sport and Culture Department. It is a wholly broader issue that needs all Departments to contribute to. 2115 The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I am not certain, I wonder if the Member could confirm, whether we actually did do vouchers 2120 for the half-term period when we were during the last lockdown. I am not sure whether we covered anything, so that could be causing greater difficulty. But I wonder also if the Department would commit to providing a breakdown of how many vouchers were actually issued, how many were claimed and whether there was any funding left from the previous situation where they did provide them. 2125 Thank you, Mr President. ______2116 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Mrs Corlett to reply.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I do not have the information that the Hon. Member has asked for just with me, but it is easily 2130 identifiable and can be supplied to Members.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 2135 Would the Hon. Member agree with me that dealing with food poverty, especially at the end of the summer holidays, is an important part of Government’s action plan for dealing with food poverty, and can the Member assure this Hon. Court and the wider public that that action plan is progressing and that her Department is supporting the others involved in that? Secondly, would the Hon. Member agree with me that when this system was first created, it 2140 was actually during a pretty bad period in school industrial relations and it was felt by the Department at the time that getting involved with collecting data at that time and imposing on teachers even more might be rather difficult, even though it was actually suggested to them at quite a high level. So the data is not actually as rich as it might otherwise have been from the period of April to May 2020? 2145 The President: Mrs Corlett to reply.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I agree with the Hon. Member from Douglas Central that data is hugely important in all of this. 2150 But I do think that following last summer it is clear that a wider Government approach is needed to identify the extent to which an issue may exist and support families who may be struggling. What we need to do, as a Government, is to look into the actual reasons behind holiday hunger, the reasons why some families struggle to have enough money to provide food for their children at certain stressful times. And as I have said before, DESC is empowered to provide food to pupils 2155 in attendance at school while schools are open, but our powers to provide meals outside school times are constrained. What I will say is that DESC will continue to work with other Departments in Government to tackle the wider issues of poverty on the Isle of Man.

2160 The President: Final supplementary question, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think we are getting caught in a trap here, talking about wider policy and a Government-wide problem and a Government-wide solution. I cannot disagree with any of those statements. The 2165 reality is that will take time, to find a perfect solution, and I wonder if the Hon. Member is of the view that we should wait until we have all the answers before we do anything or whether we should actually look to take action now that can help some people, this minimum viable product concept. Let’s do what we can to help. So can the Hon. Member commit to not waiting for a Government-wide, pan-Government 2170 strategy that will solve all of our poverty problems and instead go back to her Minister and her Department and ask the question: is there a need and can we help fill it?

The President: Mrs Corlett to reply.

2175 Mrs Corlett: Yes, I agree with what the Hon. Member from Ramsey is saying, and actually I think this is something that should be … the Minister should take to SPCC, and that is the place for this to be discussed and decided further. ______2117 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

12. Planning applications with landscaping – Encouraging native tree and shrub use

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

What advice his Department gives and actions it takes in relation to planning applications that include landscaping to encourage use of native tree and shrub species?

The President: Question 12, Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.

2180 Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my ennym. I wish to ask the Shirveishagh what advice his Department gives and actions it takes in relation to planning applications that include landscaping to encourage use of native tree and shrub species? 2185 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Boot.

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. Planning applications are advertised upon receipt and officers take into consideration 2190 comments made thereon, which include those from the Wildlife Trust and DEFA’s own – I always get this wrong! – arboricultural team and ecosystems team. Planning officers also actively seek advice from colleagues in respect of applications. From a biodiversity perspective, the ecosystems team has a list of native tree species split between those where species and provenance is important, such as semi-natural habitats, and 2195 those where this is less important, such as suburban planting. This is currently being turned into an advice note on the appropriate use of native planting. With regard to the Biodiversity Strategy, the planting of native species of Manx genetic origin is favoured, though climate change brings new challenges for sustainable planting going forward. Sadly, only small volumes of trees of local provenance are available. 2200 In advising on planning matters, the ecosystems team check the planning list every week and make comments about native planting where deemed appropriate. Particular attention is paid to applications within the countryside or applications where tree removal is proposed and therefore mitigation planting is required. Comments are made on both larger developments as well as householder applications and the team supports the ‘right tree, right place’ approach. They also 2205 comment on invasive non-native plants listed on Wildlife Act Schedule 8 which should not be planted or allowed to spread in the wild to request their exclusion from plantings and the control of colonies which pose a risk on the development sites. Thank you.

2210 The President: Supplementary, Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Could the Shirveishagh answer me then, given his positively sounding Answer there, why the policy for native tree and shrub planting is not more forcibly put in position? I will give him an 2215 example. Why does he think, or how was it allowed that the planting, say, round the B&Q roundabout and in front of Jacksons garage, for instance, is just littered with alien plant species that have little or no wildlife conservation value to the Isle of Man?

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Would he further agree with me that the way to do this is to obviously look at local species, but then British Isles species if locally sourced genetics cannot be found and that you make it a 2220 condition on the planning application, such as I was doing when I was working within his Department a few years ago? Would he agree, if he looks at that, he will see it was very successful?

The President: Minister to reply.

2225 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. There is currently no formal policy that requires those making decisions on planning applications to seek biodiversity gain and there is currently little evidence base, except designated areas, for officers to base any decisions on. Any biodiversity gain is currently achieved through negotiation, which you alluded to. Work is being undertaken between the Departments so that 2230 when the Isle of Man Strategic Plan is reviewed, new or updated policies can be introduced, and of course I did allude to an advice note on appropriate use of native planting. I am inclined to agree with you. There should be better scrutiny of planting schemes, particularly public good planting schemes, and of course there is and can be conditions imposed on advice from officers, and I am sure they do on occasions do that. 2235 The President: Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Not as much as they used to. Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Would the Shirveishagh not agree with me that in fact there is plenty of evidence to support 2240 the fact that the use of locally planted native species has a far greater conservation and biodiversity advantage than the use of, say, skimmias and laurel bushes, which have no place in the Isle of Man, it is just that they are fast-growing and suit the contractors of the time? Would he further agree to have a review into this within the planning system, so as instead of just possibly seeking advice, it becomes an actual condition of planning, as far as practicable, the 2245 use of local species in any landscaping scheme?

The President: Minister. (Interjection by Mr Shimmins)

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2250 Obviously a lot of things have happened in the past and it is difficult, and almost impossible, to change things in retrospect. I think the planning officers are a lot more conscious of biodiversity and biodiversity gain, and also the use of native species. As I said earlier, native species are not in big supply on the Island, but British Isles substitutes will work. I agree with you entirely that it is time for a review. That is why we are preparing an advice note and will in due course, when the 2255 Isle of Man Strategic Plan is reviewed, bring forward updated policies to ensure that there is some form of biodiversity gain going forward. Thank you.

13. Telecommunications mast planning applications – Assessing strategic national need

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

How strategic national need for additional telecoms capacity is evaluated in respect of telecommunications mast planning applications?

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The President: Question 13, Mr Thomas, please.

2260 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture how strategic national need for additional telecoms capacity is evaluated in respect of telecommunications mast planning applications?

2265 The President: I call on the Minister to reply.

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. When determining planning applications, decision makers need to consider the relevant development plan policies and any other material considerations. The main strategic plan policy 2270 is, Infrastructure Policy 3 states:

A balance must be struck between the need for new, evolving communications systems to satisfy residential and business demand and the impact that the necessary infrastructure will have upon the environment. Measures which may help to achieve a satisfactory balance will include a presumption against visually intrusive masts in sensitive … [areas], the encouragement of mast sharing by different operators, and the removal of redundant infrastructure. Exceptions to this policy would need to demonstrate a strategic national need, which cannot be otherwise secured by mast sharing or alternative locations.

Material considerations include the Programme for Government and other adopted strategies. Relevant to telecoms is of course the National Telecoms Strategy 2018 and the Digital Inclusion Strategy 2016. Both of these show why there is a strategic national need for telecoms infrastructure as a whole. 2275 Submitted with planning applications is a statement of need indicating existing coverage gaps and what the proposed mast cell will do to improve that. It is also recognised that masts/new cell sites are carried out at quite considerable cost, which in itself demonstrates that there is a need for that operator to improve its coverage or capacity.

2280 The President: Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. So having looked quite extensively at a recent application for a telecommunications mast, there is clearly a statement by the operator itself that it needs more capacity, but there is no 2285 mention in that statement of any capacity that might be available on its competitors’ masts or on broadcast masts or on lampposts. Does the Minister agree with me, as he must do given his officers are trying to find out this information, that it is ridiculous to consider a statement of strategic national need without knowing any information about what might or might not be available on existing infrastructure? 2290 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Well, yes. There are two operators of mobile phone systems on the Island and I do not think 2295 that we would suggest that people should have to carry two mobile phones to get coverage around the Island. Sharing masts is something that can be done, but we have talked about this in the past, previous questions. It can often result in more intrusive, larger lattice type masts. I think the measure of national need is informed by the public and the coverage available. I know in my constituency we have areas where coverage is very patchy and some areas where 2300 there is no coverage at all, and I think it is in the national interest, and people generally expect in the modern world, particularly on the Isle of Man, where we are supposed to be at the forefront of technology, that they are able to get mobile phone coverage.

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The President: Mr Thomas.

2305 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. So I think the Minister then just made a commitment that the Department when assessing planning applications has undertaken to assess whether the public feels there is existing telecommunications provision in that area. Do I understand correctly that the Minister has just stated that the Planning Department will actually interrogate the local population to see whether 2310 there is adequate coverage for mobile phone technology?

The President: Mr Boot.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2315 No, I did not make that commitment at all, and in fact when answering the question I did say that the infrastructure, masts particularly, cost substantial amounts of money, and I think the onus is really on the operators to prove that there is a need. But very evidently, and obviously as MHKs, we know where the dead areas are and we are endeavouring to get the mobile phone companies to cover those areas. 2320 We do ask for statements of need when the applications come in and operators do provide that information.

The President: Supplementary, Mr Thomas.

2325 Mr Thomas: Thank you. Given the Minister has just stated a couple of times that the costs of infrastructure, telecommunications infrastructure, are substantial, can the Minister advise what information he has about the costs of telecommunications masts like that envisaged in Woodbourne Lane?

2330 The President: Mr Boot.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. No, the Minister cannot. (Laughter)

2335 The President: Hon. Member for Central Douglas, Mrs Corlett.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. Could I just ask the Minister, as the Minister has just said that they are aware of the areas where there is poor coverage, could he tell me whether there are any areas in Douglas that have 2340 poor coverage? Thank you.

The President: Mr Boot.

2345 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. There are maps, I understand, produced by Sure and Manx Telecom and that information is generally available. I have no knowledge of areas that have poor coverage. I suspect that the information can be gleaned from the companies concerned.

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14. IoM climate change targets – Comparison with UK 2035 target

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

How the Isle of Man’s climate change proposals differ from the recently announced UK target to reduce emissions by 78% by 2035 compared to 1990 levels; and if he will make a statement? 2350 The President: Question 14, Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for the Environment, Food and Agriculture how the Isle of Man’s 2355 Climate Change proposals differ from the recently announced UK target to reduce emissions by 78% by 2035 compared to 1990 levels, and if he will make a statement?

The President: Minister to reply, Mr Boot.

2360 The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank my Hon. Member, or my hon. friend, for his Question. However, before providing an Answer, I would like to take a moment to explain again my role with the Climate Change Transformation Programme. My Department does not lead this transformation programme, it is the Cabinet Office that I stated in a previous Answer by my Department. It does 2365 play an active role and positive role in the programme, and I am a member of the Climate Change Transformation Board, and it is in this capacity that I am able to answer the Question today. As this Hon. Court is aware, the Chief Minister has made a commitment for the Isle of Man to reach net-zero by 2050. Through the work of the Climate Change Transformation Programme and my Department’s work with the Climate Change Bill, this date will soon become a statutory target 2370 when the Climate Change Bill receives Royal Assent following its approval by the Keys at the end of April. The Isle of Man’s current climate change proposals are captured in the Isle of Man Climate Action Plan phase 1, which was unanimously agreed in Tynwald in January 2020; a series of 60 actions that are currently being delivered by the Climate Change Transformation Tea. The key differences between our current climate change proposals and the recently 2375 announced UK target to reduce emissions by 78% by 2035 compared to 1990 levels is that we have yet to set an interim target for all emissions and we are not currently on track for a reduction on that scale. It is important to recognise that the UK is much further along on their net-zero journey, having reduced their emissions by 65% since 1990, in part because of their move away from fossil fuel generation of electricity, which began over 30 years ago. Our emissions have not 2380 seen a corresponding reduction. An important interim target has already been set for electricity generation, with the commitment of 75% to be generated from renewable resources by 2035. An energy strategy is currently being finalised, which provides potential routes for achieving the 75% interim target by 2035, and also net-zero emissions from electricity generation before 2050. Moving to renewable or other low emissions electricity will in turn bring down emissions 2385 associated with home heating and transport, and will allow for more rapid reductions in overall emissions. In terms of statutory interim targets, the Climate Change Bill requires us to set at least one interim target by April 2022. It is important to consider the implications of interim targets as they are set and, as my hon. friend Mr Hooper will know, I am supportive of the Climate Change Bill and it will require full consideration of the impact of measures on the most vulnerable in 2390 society, given that work is ongoing to understand our likely route in our first statutory five-year period 2020 to 2027.

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Informed by the work ongoing on the energy strategy, heating strategy and other key areas of work, it will be possible to set appropriate interim targets and enshrine them in law in time for April 2022, the deadline. 2395 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I wonder, the Minister mentioned there that we are not on track for the same scale of 2400 reduction as the UK is on track for. I wonder if he is able to share with this Hon. Court what scale of reduction he does think we are on track for?

The President: Mr Boot.

2405 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. At present, as I indicated, an energy generation strategy and the way in which we will generate energy going forward is being looked at. It is at the mid-stage at the moment, and that will determine what sort of trajectory we will be on. It would be inappropriate of me to try to second- guess strategies that are not yet fully developed. 2410 The President: Final supplementary, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I wonder if the Minister is aware that if we were to take the same approach as the UK using 2415 1990 as our baseline, that by 2035, according to the various pathways that are set out in the Impact Report, taking the high ambition pathway, we would only be seeing a 40% reduction on our 1990 levels. Taking the low impact pathway, we would only be seeing a 10% reduction on our 1990 levels. Given that this information is in stark contrast to the UK’s 78% reduction that they have committed to and will be enshrining in law, does the Minister not feel that it is about time 2420 the Isle of Man Government actually announced which pathway they are going to be taking?

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2425 As I said in the earlier Answer, at the moment we are working on various strategies to determine the way forward. I can inform the Hon. Member that energy generation strategy is not as easy and as simple as it seems, and it is all very well quoting the UK at us, but they started from a lot larger base a lot longer ago, and we have one power generation system, a combined gas turbine or diesel power. We do not have the luxury of being able to rely on hugely subsidised wind 2430 turbines and solar schemes, although in the future I am hoping that we will bring those forward. I think the key target for me, and I think everyone in this room, is that we are going to meet net-zero by 2050 and playing with figures and trying to match other people without looking at the financial and economic implications, as well as the implications on things like fuel poverty and lower income groups, is premature. We need to have a proper plan, and by 2022 that plan, or the 2435 strategy, going forward and the targets will be better informed than they are at this particular time.

______2123 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

15. Full-time hospital consultants’ pay 2021 – Comparison with UK; results of job re-evaluations

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How much on average full-time hospital consultants were paid in 2020-21; how this compares with the UK national average; whether the job re-evaluations are complete; and by how much the total bill changed as a result?

The President: Question 15, Hon. Member, Mr Speaker. 2440 The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care how much on average full-time hospital consultants were paid in 2020-21, how this compares with the UK national average, where the job re-evaluations are complete, and by how much the total bill changed as a result? 2445 The President: Minister to reply, Mr Ashford.

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. Average pay for full-time consultants in the financial year 2020-21 was £190,203. This figure is 2450 based on the payments made to consultants who are employed for the full year and includes basic salary, agreed regular additional hours on all allowances and paid for ad hoc attendance. A UK average for total payment has been looked for, but not been found. However, work done by the Merseyside Internal Audit Advisory Service established that the average number of PAs per consultant in the Isle of Man is approximately three PAs above the average for UK consultants. 2455 This would be reflected by additional salary of between £24,981 and £43,346 based on the Isle of Man’s scale. The job-planning process for consultants – which reviews the activities undertaken by each consultant determines the number of hours they are required to work on a prospective basis – was a significant piece of work. Before the job planning could start, a Job Planning Policy had to 2460 be put in place and a new medical management structure was required so that each doctor had an allocated clinical director, with whom the job planning meeting could take place. Also, a new electronic system for recording existing job plans was put in place and all existing job plans were recorded to get a baseline position with a reconciliation of contracts, pay and job plans being undertaken. 2465 Training for clinical directors and all doctors was provided in the use of the new electronic system and to familiarise themselves with the policy. There was significant delay in the overall project caused by the COVID pandemic and the resource needed to complete the work. The full triumvirate care group structures are in place and the programme will continue with Manx Care for the year beginning 21st April 2021. 2470 The President: Supplementary, Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you. Let me just first check with the Minister that I think the answer he gave me was £190,203? 2475 (The Minister: That is correct.). And that represents three PAs greater than the UK average at about £43,000 more than the UK. Like the Minister, I struggled to find a UK figure. What I found was 2018 and that was at £127,000 each for UK hospital consultants on average. So the question, obviously, that the Minister will be expecting out of this is, how does he justify the value for money, and how does he justify the greater-than-average number of performance 2480 activities, especially considering that we are so far behind on waiting lists and so many other key indicators and variants that would be measured in the UK? ______2124 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Reply, sir.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2485 I am sure the Speaker will not be surprised that I was expecting that very question. In relation to the figure that the Speaker gave, £120,000, that is the broad figure I personally managed to find as well, but one of the things I believe with that figure in terms of the pay scale for UK consultants, is there is in addition to that incentive payments that are available via the clinical excellence awards, which can be anything from £3,000 up to £77,000 per annum. 2490 In terms of the additional PAs, as a small jurisdiction we do have to be competitive, I am afraid, in terms of our pay in order to attract consultants here. I think with the way the Island’s health system has been able to market itself in the last year, we probably are a lot better known now around the world than we probably were previously and the Island is looking an increasingly attractive place to work, particularly with the challenges that places have seen elsewhere. 2495 But we do have to be competitive and we are very much, particularly in Health and Social Care, in a competitive marketplace, particularly when it comes to consultants. So, for instance, there have been some consultant posts that have been empty for many years, where we have had to use agency staff to cover that post or try to look at other ways of delivering the service. We are now starting to fill those posts, but we do have to recognise, as with a lot of jobs, we will be paying 2500 more for the staff we have on a small jurisdiction such as ours.

The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 2505 I have just done a quick search on salaries for consultants for jobs that are currently available, and there seems to be quite a few like consultant gastroenterologists, £82,000 to £110,000. I do understand that the Isle of Man has always had to pay a premium, but are these consultants on individual contracts and not on …? Obviously within the UK there is an NHS salary and grading structure for particular roles, and then the Isle of Man needs to pay an enhancement on top of 2510 that to attract them. So I would just like to understand, is it individual contracts that each one is on and is it negotiated individually?

The President: Reply.

2515 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. My understanding is historically it was individual, and that is one of the reasons we are in the position we are in now, we are having to sort it out where there were individual contracts. In relation to the figures the Hon. Member has quoted, the salary will differ according to the type of consultant. So, for instance, even the UK consultant pay scale has a vast majority within that which 2520 on average goes between £82,000 and £110,000. So depending upon which type of consultant you are looking at, you will end up with different pay scales, but this is one of the reasons why we are determined we need to get transparency into the consultant pay figure, as I said in answer to a question from Mr Speaker in January 2020. It is not all consultants that are on large volumes of money, but we need to ensure that what we are 2525 getting is value for money out of the consultant body, and that is what this is for. Unfortunately, it has been hit by COVID. I do not want to use that as an excuse, but in reality it is something that has impacted it, and Manx Care is determined to continue with that process this year, to ensure that we have transparency around consultant pay.

2530 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.

Mr Baker: Thank you very much.

______2125 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Would the Hon. Member agree with me that he has a fine balance to tread here in terms of setting his salaries for consultants, that if he pays too much then effectively he is not delivering 2535 value for money, if he pays too little he is not delivering value for money, because either you will have to recruit through locums or he will have to send the people of the Isle of Man off-Island for treatment?

The President: Minister. 2540 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Nothing there I can disagree with. I think in my experience of four years as a Minister for Health and Social Care is I am constantly treading a fine balance. In fact, when looking for a successor in September, perhaps it should be advertised as an expert tightrope walker needed! (Laughter). 2545 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. An impression that I have begun to form over 20 years is that more and more of the consultants 2550 seemed to give the impression they effectively long-distance commute rather than live in the Isle of Man. Does the Minister have any evidence that that is the case or not the case? Secondly, has the Minister any evidence about whether or not the Isle of Man premium has been widening over those two decades? And thirdly, is the Minister responsible for the work stream of making sure we are attractive to all healthcare professionals, or is it the Manx Care 2555 board that is now responsible for that?

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. 2560 Last point first, I think it would actually be the responsibility of both DHSC and Manx Care to work together. So via our partnership board, I think engaging also with the Department for Enterprise, which we have been doing on a number of things, which has been absolutely excellent engagement to try and move this forward. In terms of the premium expanding, I do not have any evidence as to that, but obviously, if 2565 anyone has any evidence I would be happy to see it. But I do not have any evidence of it widening. And in terms of a long commute, I am not aware of that, Mr President, but I suppose it depends if you class the north of the Island as a long commute!

The President: Mr Speaker. 2570 The Speaker: Thank you. I just really want to follow on about the ongoing tightrope walk of making sure that we are both competitive and also getting value for money. Obviously, we do have a beneficial tax regime here, but if the Isle of Man was more re-balanced to the UK average, that is £2 million that you 2575 could be spending on other services, Minister. What I am asking is what ongoing challenge and value-for-money assessment is there undertaken within the Department or within Manx Care? Is it documented and justified in order to gather the evidence as to whether there is a widening premium between five years ago and now, and what we are seeing in terms of the inflation because this has been a line that has been 2580 used for the last 15 years, but I am not aware that at any point over the last 15 years anyone has really been able to justify the whys and wherefores on a case-by-case basis?

The President: Minister.

______2126 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

2585 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Mr Speaker has hit the nail on the head, in fact that is the actual process that is currently ongoing. That is what we need to do. We need to drill down through every single piece of consultants’ pay to be able to justify why that pay is in place? Is it value for money? What would be the impact if we were on a different scale, in terms of recruitment and availability? Because 2590 there are some posts that are easier to recruit to than others, and that is naturally going to create a differential in pay in that area where it is more competitive. That is why this piece of work is ongoing, to ensure transparency in that area, because, as I have been perfectly frank in this Hon. Court before, that transparency most certainly has not been there in the past, but that is what this piece of work aims to achieve. 2595 The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I just want to follow on really from the value for money point of view. When the Minister’s 2600 Department is contracting services from UK consultants for a service in the UK, not a locum consultant, what do you use? Do you use the Manx average salary or do you use the UK average? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister. 2605 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. We do not tend to consider it to actually contract consultants as such, we contract the service. So we work with our tertiary hospitals in the UK to provide us with a service. If there is actual physical one-to-one consultant contracting, I will have to look into that because I am not aware of 2610 that. I thought it was the service we contracted from our tertiary providers.

The President: Supplementary question, Mr Perkins.

Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. 2615 Would the Minister agree with me that surely the simplest way of doing it is to compare lists with the UK and just making sure that our consultants are actually comparable in the numbers that they get through their list on a daily basis? Thank you, Mr President.

2620 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. That is easier said than done because of the type of services being offered. They are not always exactly the same as in the UK and some of the services are not particularly comparable being a 2625 small jurisdiction compared to the volumes going through in the UK. But this is all part of the process, and part of that is looking at the workloads because, to be quite honest and frank again, some areas have been taking on much more workload than others. So we need to ensure, and that is where the question from the Hon. Member for Garff really does fit into this review, we need to be absolutely certain that the working balance is right across the different specialities.

______2127 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

16.-17. Corrin Memorial Home and care provision in west – Questions not asked

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

16. What action Government is taking to support continuation of residential care provision at the Corrin Memorial Home; and what Government plans there are to meet care needs for elderly people in the west?

17. What work has been undertaken to protect, improve and invest in care provision facilities in the west of the Island in the current administration?

2630 The President: Question 16, Hon. Member, Mrs Lord-Brennan.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I think, in light of the clear will of Tynwald this morning, I want to see if I can withdraw Question 16 – 2635 The President: Yes, you certainly can.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: – and 17 at this time?

2640 The President: Questions 16 and 17, not to be asked.

Mrs Lord-Brennan: Yes, please.

The President: Yes, that is no problem whatsoever.

INFRASTRUCTURE

18. Heating systems in publicly owned buildings – Limiting use

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What measures his Department takes to limit the use of heating systems in publicly owned buildings when there is no need to have heating systems on? 2645 The President: Number 18, Hon. Member, Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I shall wish to address my Question, please, sir. Ta mee shirrey kied yn eysht y chur ta fo my 2650 ennym. I beg to ask the Shirveishagh what measures his Department takes to limit the use of heating systems in publicly owned buildings when there is no need to have heating systems on?

The President: Minister for Infrastructure to reply, Mr Baker. ______2128 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

2655 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. The Department has installed a building management system called Trend to regulate the heat in most of the publicly owned buildings. The system moderates the temperature to set agreed points. During the summer months, the heating is turned to a summer setting to reduce the energy requirement. 2660 The President: Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. I thank the Shirveishagh for his comprehensive Answer, and I would ask him, given that he has 2665 indicated that there is a generic averaging heating management system, what can be done though for the instances where this system clearly does not work, where heating is on when it is not needed or indeed in some buildings cool air is blowing when that is not required on cold days? Surely would he agree to a review of all Government buildings to see if any improvements to this, or bespoke improvements to buildings in specific areas, could be made? 2670 The President: Mr Baker.

The Minister: Thank you very much. I am aware the Hon. Member has expressed concerns around heating of the Tynwald building 2675 and that is … (Mr Henderson: Some.) some concerns about that. That is actually a system which is controlled locally by the Seneschal, as I understand it. Most public buildings, the building management systems are controlled by my Public Estates and Housing Division who control the temperatures and operating times. However there are exceptions, particularly in buildings that have different operating times, such as the Tynwald 2680 buildings, educational buildings, which have caretaker overrides, the National Sports Centre, which has full local control, and buildings with common meeting areas. The building management system’s function is to control the environment in the buildings without regular intervention by staff and only during summer to winter and winter to summer transition is proactive monitoring required. 2685 The heating systems are set at a level which is reflective of the needs of the users and of the needs of the building and the heating will be weather compensated and can be adjustable from the building management system. So clearly, there is a very wide range of buildings here that are covered within this system and there is an impact, of course, through external factors such as the weather, and even the most intelligent building management system will take time to react to 2690 weather changes, so you may find heating temperatures that are out of line with the immediate needs. But I am happy to pick up the discussions specifically with the Hon. Member and follow up his specific concerns.

2695 The President: Mr Henderson.

Mr Henderson: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. Again, I thank the Shirveishagh for his answer there. Would he agree with me that these building management systems are fine in theory, but the trouble is they are quite often an 2700 averaging system or set to averaging data and thereby you will find that heating systems will be on when they are not required? Again, would he agree that an individual building review across Government is required, especially given that we are in now, supposedly, climate change emergency here in the Isle of Man and that these systems are, at times, inefficient, will increase carbon footprints and obviously increase Government’s heating and energy bills? 2705 The President: Minister. ______2129 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think discussions around ideal temperatures for buildings are always emotive and different people feel comfortable at a different temperature, and I think most of us in our own residential 2710 homes would probably have discussions about the temperature at which the thermostat is set at. (A Member: Yes.) So I think the point that the Hon. Member is making is that we do need to be managing our buildings in an effective way and if you do not have a building management system, Mr President, then you are relying on individual people to control it and I think you are just changing some 2715 known problems for some unknown problems. I understand the principle that the Hon. Member is talking about and I am happy to discuss it with officers, but I do not think there is any easy solution here. But I would point out that as part of the work under the auspices of the Climate Change Transformation Board, the heating strategy is a key part of that, and that is not just about buildings in Government ownership, but it is across 2720 the whole Island.

The President: Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 2725 I just wonder if the Minister – I do not expect him to have the information – would circulate the cost of operating the Trend system per annum? Also, with regard to my previous life, one of the issues that there was was the electronic thermostats system, which was part of the Trend system controls and some of them were external and some were internal; has that been rectified? Thank you, Mr President. 2730 The President: Mr Baker.

The Minister: Yes, I am happy to discuss it with officers. It is a level of operational detail that I do not have to hand, but I am happy to discuss it with officers, Mr President. 2735 The President: Well, I can certainly vouch that as far as this Chamber is concerned I get requests for doors to be opened because it is stuffy; simultaneously, with requests to close them because it is draughty! I understand work is going on in this building courtesy of the Clerk of Tynwald’s Office.

19. Bus Vannin’s demand-responsive public transport – Outcome of RTLC meeting with Ministers

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

Pursuant to his remarks in the House of Keys on Tuesday 4th May 2021, what the outcome was of the recent meeting between the Road Transport Licensing Committee and Ministers?

2740 The President: Question 19.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure: pursuant to his remarks in the House of Keys on Tuesday 4th May 2021, what the outcome was of the recent meeting between the Road 2745 Transport Licensing Committee and Ministers?

______2130 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you very much, Mr President. 2750 A meeting was held on Wednesday 12th May 2021, which was attended by members of the Committee and the Ministers for Infrastructure and Environment, Food and Agriculture and senior officers. The meeting was productive with all parties agreeing that there is a requirement to secure additional resource to support the functions delivered by the Committee. Both Departments have taken an agreed action to work together to facilitate this. 2755 The President: Mr Moorhouse, supplementary.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Thank you, Minister, for the update. In terms of that key resource that you make reference to, there seems to be a question over 2760 whether the previous member of staff will be returning to their job or whether it will be a new one. Are you in a position yet to say whether it will be the previous or a new member of staff taking on that role? Thank you.

2765 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. It is not really for me, as the Minister for Infrastructure, to be involved in the detailed staffing decisions around this. The individual who was, as I understand it, seconded from DEFA to work 2770 with the Road Traffic Licensing Committee had returned to other duties. It is really a matter for the DEFA management team and the Minister for DEFA to determine whether that individual is able to return to work with the Committee or whether an additional different resource is provided, but the commitment was that the resource would be provided to the Committee.

2775 The President: Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you, Minister. Assuming these ideas are implemented, is there any indication of how long it will take to deal with the backlog? I have currently got constituents who are really concerned about losing 2780 businesses because the process has not been fully enacted for many months. Thank you.

The President: Minister to reply.

2785 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. Again, the issue of the backlog is really a matter for the Road Transport Licensing Committee, rather than for myself as the DoI Minister. I am as concerned as the Hon. Member that that backlog be addressed quickly, not least because my own Department has some outstanding applications that are awaiting consideration from the RTLC. 2790 The Chairman of the RTLC did indicate that he was very pleased with the commitments that had been made in the meeting, but that it would take a number of months to bring everything back to a normal level of service within the Committee. But I have got a very strong sense that real progress will be made quite quickly as soon as the resource is able to be deployed.

2795 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President.

______2131 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Does the Minister agree that a substantial part of the issue at the RTLC has been to do with the Goods Vehicles Regulations and the implementation of the Goods Vehicles Regulations? So would 2800 the Minister agree that he has to be part of the solution as well as DEFA, because there presumably is a plan about how goods vehicles will be registered, regulated, enforcement is taken and so on, given his Department is responsible for those Regulations?

The President: Yes, question to Mr Baker. 2805 The Minister: Sorry, I was going to answer Mr Thomas’s question, if that is …?

The President: Oh, I thought you had. Mr Baker. 2810 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The Hon. Member is right to an extent that the additional workload has come from the implementation of what are known as the operator regulations and that, I understand, is why the resource was contracted on a temporary basis to the RTLC from DEFA initially. However, this is a 2815 management issue for the RTLC, and it is up to them to determine how to use the individuals that they have available to them. It is not a matter for me as the Infrastructure Minister to be involved at that level of detail.

20. Recycling and waste management – Plans for Island-wide approach

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mrs Corlett) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What plans he has for an Island-wide approach to recycling and waste management?

The President: Question 20, Hon. Member, Mrs Corlett.

2820 Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure what plans he has for an Island-wide approach to recycling and waste management?

The President: The Minister for Infrastructure to reply. 2825 The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. The Department has set out the Island-wide approach to waste management in the Tynwald- approved Waste Strategy 2018. This includes the more traditional waste hierarchy, based on the principle of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle that recognises that there will always be resulting material 2830 which will have to be disposed of in other ways. Alongside the waste hierarchy the Strategy also sets out a waste infrastructure hierarchy, which demonstrates that there will always be a requirement on Island to dispose of some wastes through the Energy from Waste Plant and through properly managed and maintained landfill sites. There is also a series of policies included within the Waste Strategy which are there to guide how 2835 waste should be dealt with on Island. Over the last few years, the Department has been focusing on meeting the Programme for Government commitment to ensure that proper disposal routes for problematic waste are provided. This strategic level issue has involved attempting to develop a new fully engineered landfill site to replace the current operation at Wright’s Pit North, so that the other Programme ______2132 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

2840 for Government aim of better managing the way in which we deal with historic and current waste whilst improving environmental management is met. I remain committed to ensuring that this facility is commissioned and that this disposal route is secured for the Island. At a more local level, the Department does provide an Island-wide bring bank service, which enables all residents access to recycle glass, paper and cans, as well as plastic at civic amenity 2845 sites. However, some of the waste collection and management services are provided by local authorities, and there is more to do in the future in working with them to determine what, if any, improvements and changes can be developed in terms of these areas. We need to have some discussions in the future, not only on what we collect but also how we collect and then what happens to the materials collected. 2850 I am sure the Hon. Member for Douglas Central will agree that these are big issues to which there are no easy answers or common solutions, and the best way to tackle some of this is by working together towards agreed goals and outcomes. Given where we are in terms of potential political change, both at local and National Government level, it would be most useful to develop this work towards the end of this year once this change is more settled. 2855 The President: Mrs Corlett, supplementary.

Mrs Corlett: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Minister for his Answer, but I would like to ask him does he regard the current 2860 approach to be effective and, importantly, cost effective to the taxpayers and ratepayers? Does he consider the current approach in relation to recycling, particularly, to be piecemeal? And what are his plans to encourage local authorities to collaborate when providing services? For recycling to truly make an impact, surely the services need to be more integrated in order to be more effective? 2865 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. The Hon. Member makes some important and well thought through points. We are where we 2870 are, Mr President. We have a set of arrangements which have developed over time, and I do not think if one was to design the arrangements on Island today, one would design what we currently have and therefore I cannot, hand on heart, say this is the most efficient or economic way of actually managing our waste. The Hon. Member has asked about local authorities working together and in many ways local 2875 authorities on a local level do work together extremely well, particularly where the civic amenity sites are operated by a regional board, such as in the north of the Island where the Northern Parishes Board is effectively a grouping of local authorities, and I understand the situation is very similar in other parts of the Island. Indeed, one of the things that came out of lockdown was the local civic amenity sites began to 2880 work, or certainly demonstrated that they were working, together in a collaborative way to work out how to respond to the challenges that COVID brought. So there is good work in there. I would be in favour of more integration and working to develop the best arrangements across the whole Island that we can, Mr President.

2885 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I am interested in the Minister’s answer. So is he saying that the way the Isle of Man recycles is not efficient, but it will be for the next administration to sort out along with a review of local 2890 authorities? I think that is what I heard.

______2133 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The point I want to pick up on particularly is he mentioned problematic waste and as well as not meeting the very few targets in the Waste Strategy, would he say not only is he in breach of that Strategy, but in problematic ways he is actually outside the law in terms of continuing to operate at Wright’s Pit North and, as I understand it, without planning approval for that continuing 2895 and still with no detailed planning application for a fully engineered landfill site that he promised us last year?

The President: Mr Baker.

2900 The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. My answer was around the waste management across the Island of which recycling is a subset of that. We need to look at both of those things in the round. The Hon. Member has slightly put words in my mouth – I do not think deliberately, but – when she talked about local authority reorganisation. What I was talking about was collectively between Government and local 2905 authorities finding a better way and a more effective way to deliver these services. That is not saying anything about local authority reorganisation or restructuring, it is simply about saying how do stakeholders work together to deliver better value for the people of the Isle of Man. In terms of Wright’s Pit North and the problematic waste, we have had some challenges around both of those areas, and the Hon. Member is well versed in that, and I have dealt with a number 2910 of Questions both in this Hon. Court and the other place over the months, which I am not going to repeat. However, Wrightʼs Pit North is currently operating. It is operating whilst it has got a planning application being developed in full consultation with the Planning Department of DEFA, so I would not agree that we are operating outside the law. What I would say is that we have got a planning application in to regularise the situation and in due course, once the plans for the new 2915 strategic waste facility are developed, the intention is for that to be commissioned to take over as the Island’s landfill site. In terms of the replacement facilities, this is a complex development which needs to be properly designed and commissioned, and the Department is currently working on ensuring that all the necessary approvals are in place and the correct procedures followed to allow this 2920 challenging project to move forward.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. 2925 The Minister has made a couple of references to the Waste Strategy 2018 and inside that Strategy there is a policy; Policy 5 talks about Household Waste Recycling, and that policy states that:

The Department, working with others across Government and the Local Authorities, will identify household waste packaging and items that will be targeted for recycling across all Local Authority waste collection areas and will establish limits for the amount of targeted recyclables remaining in the residual household waste stream.

Is the Minister able to advise if this has taken place, if this has happened? Is he also able to provide us with information on the auditability of all wastes collected and the comparative 2930 recycling performance of the various local authorities across the Island? Again, it is something else that it talks about in the Strategy. I am just not aware that this data is routinely collected and published by his Department, so if he could perhaps provide us with an update – maybe not now, maybe he could circulate the information later – about, actually, how is the Department getting on with some of the aims and aspirations that are set out in that 2018 Waste Strategy? 2935 The President: Minister.

______2134 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The Minister: Yes, I am happy to do that, Mr President, to have the information collated and to update Hon. Members accordingly. 2940 The President: Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you, Mr President. Much in the same vein as Mr Hooper really, if I could just ask what the Minister’s KPIs are around this area and how he measures success and whether 2945 he will publish it? So much the same question.

The Minister: It is the same answer, Mr President.

The President: That is good.

CHIEF MINISTER

21. ARUP review of Laxey flood – Progress on recommendations

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Chief Minister:

What progress has been made with implementing the recommendations of the ARUP review of the impact of the Laxey flood on 1st October 2019; and if he will make a statement?

2950 The President: Question 21, Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Chief Minister what progress has been made with implementing the recommendations of the ARUP review of the impact of the Laxey flood on 1st October 2019; and 2955 if he will make a statement?

The President: Noting the Chief Minister kindly circulated a lengthy reply in writing, this will be entered onto the record.

The following Answer in writing was received prior to the sitting:

Mr President, I am pleased to report following the adoption of the 10 recommendations in the ARUP report last year by CoMin, very strong progress has been made. I appointed the Chief Secretary to lead the work required to deliver the recommendations and his first step was to establish a cross-Government team, the Flood Risk Management Board, consisting of the executive leadership from the Department of Infrastructure, Department for the Environment, Food and Agriculture, Manx Utilities, Treasury and Cabinet Office. This team meets monthly to monitor and drive progress. The board includes a representative of Garff. In November last year a new Flood Management Division was established in the Department for Infrastructure bringing together responsibility for flood management and expertise from both teams. This division is now successfully operating as the single point of contact for all matters related to the management and mitigation of flooding and coastal erosion. The Department is working with Garff Commissioners to appoint a community flood warden to provide advice and support to residents. The Flood Management Division launched a dedicated website in January this year to provide a single source of information on all matters relating to flooding. ______2135 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Treasury has commenced negotiations with the United Kingdom’s Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about the flood reinsurance scheme established by the UK government. I very much hope that the ‘Flood Re’ scheme can be extended to cover properties on the Isle of Man but UK colleagues have indicated that if this is possible the scheme cannot be amended to cover Isle of Man properties until 2024. I realise that this will leave Laxey residents with significant concerns so I have asked Treasury to work with insurers to help local residents secure effective and affordable insurance. Hon. Members will recall that this was suggested by the Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins MHK. The first step has been the sharing of information relating to the flood risk management works completed in Laxey with the Association of British Insurers. Provided progress can be made, details relating to flood risk mitigation works completed across the Island will be shared with the insurance industry. The Cabinet Office and Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture are continuing to explore options that may contribute to a lower risk of flooding in the planning policy statement work. The Flood Management Division is developing plans to offer advice and potentially grants to encourage implementation of property level protection against flooding. Residents of Laxey will clearly want to see more than this background work, important as it is. As I speak, the signs are out in Glen Road to warn of a 22-week highway closure. I know that this is an inconvenience to residents and businesses and I am extremely grateful to those residents who told DoI officers that they will gladly put up with the diversion to allow new flood protection to go in. This work is to finish off the upper section of flood wall that was started last year and to make improvements in the river channel, particularly the removal of the MER weir that we all recall from the photos as being choked with logs. This is being replaced with a rock ramp which will look very much like a natural feature. I know that some are concerned about the conservation aspects of the village. I understand that, but we need to protect people and properties. The new Gretch Veg culvert has a huge 2 m by 3 m cross section. It has already proved to be a worthwhile improvement in heavy rain. It does look a little stark and I know that DoI’s contractors will be returning to add stone cladding to help it blend in more. Having been to see the new debris catcher in Laxey Glen Gardens myself in November 2020 with Hon. Members for Garff, Mr Caine and Mr Perkins, I am not surprised to hear that some visitors have been asking if it is a work of sculpture! Much more has and will be done: extensive maintenance of river banks including installation of rock armour, removal of trees and vegetation and scour protection, larger heavy duty drainage in both Glen Road and on roads that sit above the Glen Road and feed into it. The Met Office now issues weather warnings through the Everbridge text alert platform and will adopt a new UK Met Office forecasting platform when it becomes available later this year. The National Flood Forum, a UK-based charity specialising in support for people at risk or victim of flooding, has been engaged and has agreed to extend its services to the Island. I am keen that this is launched in the coming months. In summary, good progress has been made with implementing all 10 of the ARUP recommendations. However, the Flood Risk Management Board acknowledges that there remains further work to complete and on my behalf it will continue to work together to deliver the recommendations in the report and the commitments I made to the people of Laxey

2960 The President: I invite the Chief Minister to reply.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you very much, Mr President – but you still want me to read it out, I take it?

2965 The Speaker and another Member: No.

The Chief Minister: Oh, no … ______2136 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

A Member: No.

2970 The President: That is not necessary, sir, you may refer to it.

The Chief Minister: Right, well, as I published my response, I am more than happy to take questions from Hon. Members.

2975 The President: Thank you, sir. That is very helpful. Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Chief Minister for the comprehensive response saying that he has met all 10 recommendations, or there has been work on all 10 2980 recommendations in the review. But I have to take issue. I think there has been less emphasis anyway on number 4, which was the coastal erosion one, but overall, I think it has been a really good effort. Would he agree with me that actually centralising the flood team at the Department of Infrastructure has actually enabled them to thrive and there has been exceptionally good engagement with the officers of 2985 that team with my constituents and work is ongoing to compile information on surface water run- off for modelling of the whole of Laxey valley, which will be very useful? But probably two questions for the Chief Minister. Is he confident that the works under way will prevent a repeat of the flood that Laxey suffered if there was a similar amount of rainfall in the coming winter, and is he confident that the way it has been structured, and the response with 2990 the project manager to the review, is he confident that the work will continue beyond his administration? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Chief Minister. 2995 The Chief Minister: Thank you, Mr President. A number of questions from the Hon. Member. First and foremost, I am not a structural engineer and have no expertise in flooding. So anything I could give the Hon. Member would be an opinion. The Hon. Member asked me: will they prevent – the works done today – a repeat of 3000 2019, Mr President. Mr President, the damage to people’s homes that I witnessed in October 2019 is a lasting negative memory that I will take from my time as Chief Minister. Now, as the Hon. Member has been very kind and gracious in acknowledging a considerable amount of work has been done to improve the facilities in Laxey, and I had the honour of walking with Mrs Caine and Mr Perkins last year to look at works that had been done, and the tree catcher 3005 is certainly a very impressive situation and the new culvert is a significant improvement and reinforced wall. So one would hope … you can never say never, so it is pointless me getting up and saying that the works that we have done will stop flooding in Laxey, or works that are being done in the future, maybe in Ramsey, will stop flooding in Ramsey. If there is one thing I have learnt in life as a farmer, Mr President, it is you never underestimate the powers of nature, and whilst we 3010 as human beings can do our utmost to mitigate the risk, whether it be COVID or flooding of our beloved Island, you can never mitigate totally against that. So I think if we look back less than two years from when we had these terrible events in Laxey, I was away at the Conservative Party Conference at the time and I got the next plane home and went out to visit it myself, I would hope, and I think it has been acknowledged, that there has been 3015 considerable work done since then to improve the situation, and I know when I got back I went through five-six years of minutes of the flood risk management committee, and it had been a disaster of lack of action and just a bit of a talking shop, and I insisted that there were changes. I am delighted that the changes are delivering now.

______2137 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

So I would hope that long after I am gone it continues to improve, but I challenge all Members 3020 who are standing again, and if you get re-elected, to make sure you carry on working to improve the situation on flood risk. But it spends an awful lot of money and we only have a finite amount of work, and it is getting the right balance. We have spent a lot of money in Laxey; it was desperately needed, I know, for the good people of Laxey, but there are other areas of the Island that are … I know the quay in Ramsey, for example, needs it. Castletown, we have spent a fair 3025 amount of money, more needs to be done. It is doing your best, but I think the reaction and the work that has been done is significantly better than pre-October 2019. Thank you.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

22. Agri-Environment Scheme – Estimates of claims; comparison with previous scheme

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

How much his Department estimates will be claimed by farmers via the new Agri-Environment Scheme; and how that compares with the previous Agricultural Development Scheme?

The President: Question 22, Hon. Member, Mrs Caine.

3030 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture how much his Department estimates will be claimed by farmers via the new Agri-Environment Scheme; and how that compares with the previous Agricultural Development Scheme?

3035 The President: I call on the Minister to reply, Mr Boot.

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. The new Agri-Environment Scheme has given the Department the opportunity to introduce measures that will allow farmers and other custodians of the countryside to continue to maintain 3040 and enhance the farmed environment for generations to come. The Scheme was introduced following detailed consultations with the MNFU and other industry stakeholders. The budget for the Scheme is some £2 million. The Scheme was open for applications last month and applications can be made throughout the scheme year. Though it is impossible to say for sure at the moment, the Department is aware of great interest in the Scheme and anticipate that the budget will be 3045 utilised. It is important to note that the Agricultural Development Scheme (ADS) is still in existence and has not been replaced by the Agri-Environment Scheme (AES), it has been supplemented. The overall budget for the two Schemes has been increased by £1 million and a further £1 million has been moved from ADS to create the combined £2 million budget for this Scheme. The AES 3050 supports a diverse range of activities from habitat creation through to encouraging efficient farming practices and supporting farm educational activities. It has been established to encourage extra environmental actions and create a sustainable farming industry on our Island. For 2021, payments made under the ADS scheme amounted to just under £6 million. Based on last year’s claimed acreage it is anticipated payments made under the ADS Scheme for this year 3055 will be just under £5 million. Obviously the exact figure cannot be calculated and is dependent on the acreage claimed.

______2138 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Supplementary question, Mrs Caine.

3060 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for that response. Can I ask him to clarify, farmers and constituents speaking to me felt that the new scheme, although on paper … who cannot support more sustainability and environmental awareness through farming? But the argument was that farmers do this anyway, because it is in their interest. Is there any risk that in encouraging farmers to go for the Agri-Environment Scheme that we will 3065 actually reduce the sustainability of the farm in the way that they produce the grain that they need to feed the winter cattle; that if they leave an acre free and it is a small field or a small strip of a small farm that you are reducing the economics of that actual farm by encouraging the other. The other argument was that actually some of the older farmers just will not bother applying for the environment part because they are not going to be doing the educational resources and 3070 set up that is required or see the future in that for them. In terms of the ADS, will there be £15 an acre reduction on what they were paid previously? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister. 3075 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Well, the ADS payment match funds the additional £1 million in terms of its reduction, and pre- AES it was £78.20 below the mountain line and £64.62 post AES – that this year – and above the mountain line £13.03 to £8.21. 3080 There is a trend generally in other jurisdictions to remove area payments completely and substitute for environmental payments, and we took the view that our farming community, based on research that we had carried out, required an area payment, but there were a lot of things that could be done to improve the environment and provide public good with this extra £2 million. We got full support from the MNFU, and I think that the statement you made, some farmers 3085 will not claim, is probably right, and some farmers already do it; well, they will see a benefit from that, which will probably substitute for the loss in area payment. But the rationale behind the scheme is that it will encourage people to do these things that they are not doing at the moment. The ones that are not doing it, we want to bring them into the fold. I have looked at some of the figures, and they are available on the website and there is a 3090 handbook, fairly comprehensive, and we will be shortly announcing a delivery partner who will help people claim for this Scheme. It is fairly concise, and it seems to me that for an average Manx farm there could be an advantage. In other words, there are additional funds available for doing good for the environment and providing public good. So I would implore all the farming community to look very hard at the Scheme and see where 3095 they can benefit, and engage with the Department and our delivery partner in due course.

Question 23 to be answered in writing

The President: Question 23, Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the leave of the Court to have this Question answered in writing, please. 3100 The President: Certainly.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President.

______2139 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

24. Corrin Memorial Home closure – Question not asked

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

When he expects the Corrin Memorial Home in Peel to close; and what provision he intends should be in place for (a) its residents and (b) alternative provision in the west of the Island?

3105 The President: And Question 24 will not be asked.

25. Care homes and social care – Role of charitable companies

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

What role he expects charitable companies to play in the future provision of (a) residential and nursing care homes and (b) social care?

The President: Question 25, Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I beg leave to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what role he expects charitable 3110 companies to play in the future provision of (a) residential and nursing care homes and (b) social care?

The President: I call on the Minister for Health and Social Care, Mr Ashford.

3115 The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President, and can I thank the Hon. Member for Douglas Central for this Question. We are fortunate on Island to have a very vibrant third sector which already provides a range of services within health and care settings, and I am pleased that Manx Care have already acknowledged the contribution that those organisations play and expressed a desire to work more 3120 closely with them in the future. I hope and fully anticipate that the third sector will continue to play an important part in the provision of social care as already successfully demonstrated through the work on the integration project. As this project moves from strength to strength, I understand there is further commitment to the development and implementation of integrated care tiered pathways as set out in objective 3 of the Manx Care Mandate. This work is predicated on the 3125 positive working relationships between the third sector, primary care and commission service providers. As our health and care system continues to evolve and mature so will our collaborations with the third sector, Mr President. The Department will continue to support this view and ensure that strategic and commissioning decision-making processes are inclusive with the third sector. 3130 This Hon. Court will be aware that there is further work on the funding of residential and nursing care currently being undertaken by the Health and Care Transformation Programme, and this work will of course need to involve the relevant third sector representatives so that their important and unique perspective can be taken into account to shape the outcomes.

3135 The President: Supplementary question, Mr Thomas. ______2140 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I appreciate the helpful response from the Minister. For the avoidance of doubt, can the Minister assure the charities out there that there is nothing in the Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019, which came into force on 1st April 2020, or in the Regulation of Care Act 2013, which means that you cannot continue to provide services in 3140 the social care sector, either under contract or just using your own resources from the basis of a social enterprise charitable structure. You do not need to incorporate. Can the Minister make that assurance? Secondly, does the Minister want to take this as an opportunity to acknowledge that there could be a crowding-out impact in social care, whereby the huge amounts of money that are 3145 available to employ qualified managers and to access training and to refurbish buildings that could work to the detriment of the social enterprises that Minister Baker made such a good case for this morning? Can the Minister assure us all, and the third sector in particular, that he will do everything he can to make sure that there is not that crowding-out phenomenon in play here?

3150 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Taking the point about corporatisation, I could only obviously speak on my knowledge, and I stand to be corrected at a future date, but to my knowledge there is nothing that compels those 3155 organisations to corporatise, and to the best of my knowledge there is nothing either within the Charities Act or the Regulation of Care Act that would prevent them operating and engaging with the Department to deliver services. In fact, we have organisations that do that currently. So I would certainly hope that was the case. In relation to crowding out, it is a very good point the Hon. Member makes and one of the 3160 things I think we need to do as well is … I stand in this Hon. Court many times, Mr President, and talk about silo mentality and the need within DHSC to break it down. We need to be encouraging that as a Government within the third sector as well, and encouraging third-sector organisations and charitable organisations to work more closely together, because I think there are duplications in those sectors as well, where organisations can pull together around things like staff training and 3165 working together to deliver services. Because we have some small charities that deliver one aspect of a service very well but cannot necessarily deliver the whole service, but if they group together with other charities, they have an all-encompassing view. So alongside crowding out, I think there is a large piece of work to do, and I know that the charities themselves are now starting to do it from conversations I have had, of getting charities 3170 in the third sector to work together to deliver the best outcomes.

26. Family visits in care settings – Ensuring when no lockdown

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

What action he will take to ensure people can visit family members on a regular basis within care settings when there is no official Government lockdown?

The President: Question 26, Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care what action he will take to ensure 3175 people can visit family members on a regular basis within care settings when there is no official Government lockdown? ______2141 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): Thank you, Mr President. 3180 In response to an outbreak of COVID-19 and in the absence of any official Government lockdown, Manx Care will follow the guidance and advice provided by Public Health and Infection Prevention and Control in monitoring and regulating visits to its care homes. Manx Care will endeavour to maintain regular visiting to its care homes, providing it is safe to do so. However, this will be controlled or restricted if the clinical advice is to do so on the basis that residential 3185 settings are high-risk environments and the COVID-19 vaccination does not provide complete protection from contracting or becoming very ill with COVID-19. All care settings operated by Manx Care have been proactively assessed by the Care Home Assessment and Rapid Response Team, also known as CHARRT. Areas covered by the assessment include infection control measures, presence of up-to-date policy documents around pandemic 3190 preparedness and resilience of PPE supplies. More broadly, the DHSC, and now Manx Care, have supported all care homes and learning disability community houses since May 2020 through provision of expert advice to enable care homes to respond more effectively should a case of COVID-19 arise in their home. If a case of COVID-19 should be detected in any care home, the CHARRT team will initiate a rapid response to support the care home and its residents and staff. 3195 Regular communication takes place with care settings that are operated by the third or private sector. However, they are under no obligation to follow any guidelines in regard to visiting that have been provided by either Manx Care or the Department of Health and Social Care and they do have to undertake their own risk assessments as to what they believe is safe for their facility. Regarding the hospital setting, the hospital visiting policy is reviewed on a regular basis by 3200 Manx Care senior management and is based on the current number of COVID cases in the Isle of Man and the operational needs and pressures of each service. When there are changes to visiting arrangements, these are communicated to the public via the website and also generally by press release.

3205 The President: Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for that response. Obviously, his own Department is quite clear and does publish. My concern is coming more from providers that provide services for his Department that appear, since COVID, to be 3210 restricting, great restrictions to family members, and they will be phoned and they will be told they can have a slot, which certainly was not the previous arrangement prior to COVID. What can the Minister do, what powers does he have, to make sure that these homes are not restricting access due to staffing levels? Thank you, Mr President. 3215 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. We cannot dictate to private homes their visiting policy, but what we can do is offer support and guidance to them. We have been doing that throughout, and as I said in my original Answer, it will unfortunately differ home to home. Some have taken the guidance that has been given by 3220 Manx Care absolutely to the letter and followed that, others have felt less comfortable and have had more restrictive practices. I think what we need to do as a Department, and we have been doing, but continue to do, is to reassure providers and talk through with them what measures they need to have in place, why certain measures are required, but also how they can continue with an active visiting policy, because we know that from the first lockdown last year, 3225 Mr President, one of the biggest impacts was isolation and loneliness of people in care homes and in community facilities who had their entire lives disrupted. Who, to be honest, sometimes in those facilities can feel lonely at the best of times, but even more so when they felt everything was being shut down around them. ______2142 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

So I think what we need to do is we need to work with the providers, particularly those external 3230 to Manx Care, to get them in a comfortable place so that they do not have as much fear as I think they sometimes do now, and I can understand that fear, Mr President.

The President: Ms Edge.

3235 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister and completely understand that you have to work with these providers. However, large numbers of individuals who are in these private environments are funded by your Department. So therefore, if a member of a family has an issue and is not getting the access that they previously had, will they be complaining to yourself as the DHSC, will they be complaining to Manx Care, or will they be complaining to the private 3240 provider?

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Mr President, if it is a private provider, the answer is the private provider 3245 because they ultimately control their own policy around visiting. But like I say, what we need to do is work out why the provider feels so reluctant to potentially follow what is the guidance from Manx Care. If they are deciding additional measures are necessary in their home or there needs to be a suspension of visitation we need to understand why they feel that way and try and get that provider to feel more comfortable to allow visitations. 3250 There are multiple ways of doing it. Many of the third sector care homes and private sector care homes have managed this very successfully. There are some where there is still that reluctance and I can understand the fear because no provider wants to be the provider where there is an outbreak and then it is spread all over the media that they are the home that has had the outbreak. But we need to work with them, Mr President. That is the only way we can do that 3255 because they ultimately control their visitation policies, but we as a Department need to have a duty to work with them, to understand their fears and reassure them.

JUSTICE AND HOME AFFAIRS

27. No fault divorces – When available

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs:

When no fault divorces will be available?

The President: Question 27, Hon. Member, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 3260 I would like to ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs when no fault divorces will be available?

The President: I call on the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs, Mr Cregeen.

3265 The Minister for Justice and Home Affairs (Mr Cregeen): Thank you, Mr President. No fault divorces will be made possible through the Divorce, Dissolution and Separation Act 2020. The Act received Royal Assent last October and it has been subject to a further amendment via the recent Statute Law Revision Bill, which has yet to receive Royal Assent. ______2143 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Mr President, before the Act can be brought into force by the Council of Ministers, a significant 3270 amount of propriety work has to be undertaken. The Act transforms the Island’s divorce framework. In addition to rules of court, new processes have to be devised, guidance drafted and issued, and over 30 forms reviewed. The judiciary, General Registry staff and family practitioners will need to be fully trained and appropriate transitional arrangements put in place to cover divorce applications which are already 3275 going through the courts. I can assure Hon. Members that this propriety work is being progressed, although it is competing for resources with operational and other priorities. I would advise the Hon. Member for Garff that the secondary legislation codes of practice and guidance are also required for the Domestic Abuse Act, the Justice Reform Bill and the Sexual Offences and Obscene Publications Act. I hope that the Hon. Member will agree with me that 3280 these are all pieces of legislation which have a priority to those affected by them, and it is a difficult balancing act to allocate resource according to need. I am hopeful that the Council of Ministers may be in a position to bring the Act into force by the end of the calendar year, but I am unable at this time to give a definitive date for when no fault divorces will be available in the Isle of Man. 3285 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President, and I thank the Minister for that detailed Answer and I 3290 am certainly aware of the huge amount of work that General Registry has been undertaking in this regard, and I am very appreciative. But I do wonder if he is speaking about ‘30 forms need to be reviewed’ and a whole load of competing priorities … given it was my Private Member’s Bill that went forward and this will be over a year since it first received Royal Assent. Is the Minister confident that there are adequate resources to compile the secondary legislation for all the very 3295 important Bills that he has taken forward in recent years? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Reply, sir.

3300 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Since taking up my role as Minister for Justice and Home Affairs, it has become apparent to me that there is a severe pressure on drafting instructions and drafters’ availability. So I will be bringing this matter up at the next Justice Committee, because I think it is something that will need to be addressed as a matter of urgency, because I think Hon. Members may see the primary 3305 legislation coming through this Hon. Court and through the other place, but the amount of secondary legislation which actually has to go with that, and it is that competing pressure that we really do need to see how many more drafters we will need to get this legislation in a timely manner. Thank you, Mr President. 3310 The President: Mrs Caine, final supplementary.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President, and I am grateful for the Minister for that acknowledgement and to take it back for review. 3315 He may not be aware, but I am receiving a handful of enquiries every month asking me when is this going to be available. So there is a need out there with people recognising the benefits of no fault divorce being available to couples. Is there any way of promoting, when the implementation date is drawing nearer and can be confirmed, is there any way of promoting this through the Government website, so that people perhaps can follow that route to get the 3320 information, rather than coming to me, when I have no more information than they do? ______2144 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Thank you.

The President: Minister.

3325 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. Yes, it is something that we will have to review: how we can actually get further information out there. So that is something that we will look at.

INFRASTRUCTURE

28. Bus route changes – Policies and impact assessments used

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What policies and impact assessments were used to make the recent changes to bus routes?

The President: Question 28, Hon. Member, Ms Edge. 3330 Mrs Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask the Minister for Infrastructure what policies and impact assessments were used to make the recent changes to bus routes?

3335 The President: Minister to reply, Mr Baker.

The Minister of Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. The overarching policy statement which dictates how the Department provides bus travel is included within the Programme for Government. The document includes the outcome that we 3340 will have Island transport that meets our social and economic needs, and linked to this outcome is a policy statement that we will provide public transport which best serves the social and economic needs of our communities. These are the fundamental policy drivers which allow the Department to determine how best to provide bus services. The Department also has an ongoing commitment to ensure that the services provided are 3345 done so within the budget provided. This requires the Department to look at cost when providing services. This policy approach, as set out as part of the Securing Added Value and Efficiency work known as SAVE, undertaken by Treasury, which highlighted the need to maximise efficiencies when determining any timetable changes. The Department is committed to providing a policy framework for buses, and there is an emerging document which will provide more detail on this 3350 in due course. The bus strategy for connectivity and accessibility will set out a series of principles which will be applied to any decision to be made regarding timetable changes. In terms of the recent changes to bus routes, I can confirm the Department did not undertake any specific impact assessment.

3355 The President: Supplementary, Ms Edge.

Mrs Edge: Thank you, Mr President. I just wonder, the Minister has obviously just confirmed that there were no impact assessments carried out. Is he aware that the equality impact assessment should be done for any 3360 changes within the policy? So obviously the next changes … I know it is a regulatory change. I just want to say, fantastic bus service that we have and I did meet with the Head of Buses with regard ______2145 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

to some of my concerns, but an equality impact assessment should be done to ensure that everybody has access to transport. Thank you, Mr President. 3365 The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Member for her positive comments and for meeting with the 3370 bus team and taking that time, and I think she is absolutely right. We have an excellent bus service, and it is about a balance between commercial and social considerations. But in terms of her specific comments around equality impact assessments, she is right. The Department did not carry one out or a screening assessment to determine if a full assessment was required. That was an oversight and one which will be rectified with regard to future timetable changes. 3375 As Members will be aware, the Department is committed to ensuring that public transport is accessible for all, and we are in the process of setting up a committee chaired by the Hon. Member for Douglas South working with a number of stakeholders, which I hope will assist with meeting this commitment. There is a genuine desire to improve, and I will ensure that this issue regarding equality impact assessments is referred to the Committee and request that they ensure that a 3380 process for including such assessments is incorporated into the process of timetabling.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Quine.

Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. 3385 I can agree wholeheartedly with my hon. friend, the Member for Onchan, Ms Edge, when she has just said that overall, we do have an excellent bus service. However, would the Minister agree with me that the Department of Infrastructure has proven to have come up short with regard to logistical planning associated with the onset of work at Pulrose Bridge, particularly with regard to bus services on route 21, resulting in Bus Vannin having to improvise on the hoof in order to 3390 provide a bus service to the people of Pulrose? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Minister to reply.

3395 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. I am actually going to say I am very disappointed by the comments of the Hon. Member for Douglas South. He started off very well and endorsed the positive comments of the Hon. Member for Onchan, and I was finding a lot to agree with. But I think I cannot accept the comments he made at the end. 3400 What I will say is that the Department has listened to the concerns of both Hon. Members for Douglas South, because the changes that were brought in as a result of the necessary work to Pulrose Bridge had a disruptive effect on the bus service in Pulrose. And rather than improvising on the hoof, what the Department did was listen to the Hon. Members representing their constituents and undertook to make some service changes to improve the service to the people 3405 of Pulrose and Anagh Coar, and I think that is good responsible departmental management, not improvising on the hoof, Mr President.

Member: Hear, hear.

3410 The President: Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Thank you.

______2146 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Did the SAVE budget reductions that the Minister has talked about – I think it is about a million pounds – I am just wondering whether they put increased pressure on services and whether it has 3415 actually hampered the ability of the Department to engage in new ideas to develop economic opportunities for the service?

The President: Minister.

3420 The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. The Hon. Member does makes some very pertinent points. I think we all have a challenge in delivering public service to balance the desire to improve the service and the desire and the need to be financially responsible with the resources that we have. So clearly the Department would be able to deliver better services with a greater budget allocation, but Treasury is in a position where 3425 it has to prioritise and it has to weigh up the conflicting demands of different Departments, and that is a hugely difficult job to get that right balance, particularly when we have had the COVID challenges where Treasury has had to meet a lot of unplanned expenditure. It would clearly be easier for the Department and better for the Department if we had a more fully funded service, but we adapt and we evolve the service. 3430 We came forward with a number of proposals which were linked to the implementation of a demand-responsive service in certain parts of the Island and new services which have been developed in consultation with the taxi trade in the north of the Island, and I know both Hon. Members for Ramsey have expressed their disappointment that we have not been able to move forward with those. But that was not down to financial constraints; that was down to the 3435 inability to get clearance from the RTLC for those services. Now, hopefully, the Hon Member for Castletown, Arbory and Malew’s Question – or even Arbory, Castletown and Malew! – the Question earlier about the RTLC and the meeting we had, is hopefully moving things forward in that regard. But I would say our bus service is an excellent service. It balances the commercial 3440 considerations with social inclusion. I think it is also integral to our response to climate change, so it may well be that going forward we need more funding for the bus service, but that needs to be brought forward in a very considered manner in collaboration with the Treasury.

The President: Mr Thomas. 3445 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Would the Minister accept a plaudit, appreciation for the confession that was just made in respect of screening processes and impact assessment? And secondly, would the Minister agree with me that it might be worthwhile for the Department of Infrastructure in the Public Transport 3450 Division to look into the Equality Champion’s excellent annual report recently, which talked about how some other Departments of Government have carried out the screening process and the impact assessments. It does not need to be something that is done at a high level, it can actually be done making use of, for instance, the Department for Enterprise work placement and schemes, because it is about systematically following through standard procedures for screening and 3455 equality impact assessments?

The President: Minister.

The Minister: Thank you very much, Mr President. 3460 I am always happy on behalf of the Department to accept any plaudits that the Department of Infrastructure gets because it is fairly rare, so I thank the Hon. Member for his kind comments. (Laughter) I think it is important that if you get something wrong, you accept it. We have talked in the health context about a duty of candour. In this context, the Department did not do any equality ______2147 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

3465 impact assessments, so that is not a good thing, but the important thing is when something goes wrong, to acknowledge it and learn from it. So I thank the Hon. Member for his comments there and for his constructive suggestion about the Equality Champion’s report. What we have to do is make sure we respond in the best way we can, and we need to learn from the resources and expertise we have around us, and I look to the Hon. Member for Douglas 3470 South to look at that equality report, she is probably very familiar with it already, and to decide how best to take the value from that and embed it in the Department.

MANX UTILITIES AUTHORITY

29. Water pipes in Garff – Number burst in last five years; replacement plans

The Hon. Member for Garff (Mrs Caine) to ask the Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority:

How many burst water pipes the Manx Utilities Authority has recorded in Garff in the last five years; and what plans the Authority has to replace water pipes there?

The President: Question 29, Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. 3475 I would like to ask the Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority how many burst water pipes the Manx Utilities Authority has recorded in Garff in the last five years and what plans the Authority has to replace water pipes there?

The President: I call on the Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority to reply. 3480 The Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. According to Manx Utilities’ records, there have been 90 bursts in the Sheading of Garff in the past five years. When Manx Utilities prioritises water mains for replacement it does not do so by parish. However, there are mains identified in Garff for which remedial action is required. 3485 Some bursts do cause more disruption than others. In particular, the main on the Dhoon Loop Road has become a troublesome main, with its burst frequency increasing in recent months. When it bursts, not only wasting water, it can quickly affect the Ballaragh service reservoir that supplies water to Laxey and so this one main can have a wide-ranging influence. Manx Utilities’ board has recently sanctioned the replacement of this main and subject to Treasury concurrence 3490 it is expected that this will be completely replaced by the summer of 2022. A further main within Dreemskerry Road is planned to be replaced within the next three years.

The President: Mrs Caine.

3495 Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. I would just like to say that I have not petitioned the Minister specifically on my road’s water main, but I am very pleased to hear that for myself and my neighbours, having suffered three bursts since December, and in the 25 years I have been there every colour from black bathwater to silt – and I think I probably have the biggest supply of bottled water outside his organisation. 3500 But while that is very pleasing, can he tell us the extent of that from … is it the Dhoon to Ballaragh, I think I heard him say, how far down the rest of Maughold will it go? Also, acknowledging that it is a significant improvement to the water supply and the constant interruptions to service, would he also co-ordinate to ensure, for instance, the top of the road ______2148 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

past the Dhoon Glen has seriously deteriorated, and it would be marvellous if the road resurfacing, 3505 and even perhaps fibre installation might be co-ordinated at the same time. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mr Baker.

3510 The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr President. Well, I admire the Hon. Member’s ambition, and I will confirm that she did not lobby for Manx Utilities to replace this water main. She will of course be aware that road resurfacing and fibre installation is not part of the Manx Utilities service offering. (Mrs Caine: Could co-ordinate!) However, she does raise an important 3515 point that these things are all interlinked to a significant extent, and actually, one of the adverse impacts of the issues around water mains is actually the damage they cause to our highways. One of the things that Manx Utilities is looking at at the moment is around the level of bursts across the Island, and we have quite a dated water main infrastructure with a significant proportion over 50 years old out of our over a thousand kilometres of water mains. 3520 So there is an ongoing programme to replace these. The Dhoon Loop Road is a major commitment. I will correspond directly with the Hon. Member around the exact extent of it, but it is a significant length, and I will give her the exact start and finish of that separately, Mr President.

3525 The President: Hon. Member for Garff, Mr Perkins.

Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. While we are praising the Minister, would the Minister agree with me that his team have done a tremendous job on replacing the water main up the Laxey Wheel along Mines Road, and it is 3530 much appreciated by the constituents? (Laughter)

The President: I am sure he will be delighted to agree!

Mr Cregeen: Stand for Garff! 3535 The Chairman: I absolutely agree, (Laughter) and thank the Hon. Member for his comments and for the collaborative way both Members for Garff are working with the Manx Utilities Authority with the important issue of progressing the sewage treatment works for the Garff area as well.

30. Electricity key meter top-ups – Arrangements for those without online access

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority:

What arrangements are in place to allow those on electricity key meters without access to online services to top up their meters, once the rollout of smart meters has taken place?

3540 The President: Question 30, Hon. Member, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President.

______2149 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

I would like to ask the Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority what arrangements are in place to allow those on electricity meters without access to online services to top up their meters, once 3545 the rollout of smart meters has taken place? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: I call on the Chairman to reply.

3550 The Chairman of the Manx Utilities Authority (Mr Baker): Thank you, Mr President. Manx Utilities has recognised that not everyone will have a smart device or access to a computer, which will mean that not all of the benefits of the system are available directly to those consumers. However, it will still be possible to pay by simply providing an account number in store and topping up in the same way that key meter customers have been used to. Manx Utilities will 3555 maintain a list of shops on its website and will provide further detail locally when it begins the installation programme. Manx Utilities’ smarter pay-as-you-go system will also allow customers who do not have smart devices to remain informed. If they choose to, they will receive information such as balance notifications via an automatic text message. It will also be possible to allow a trusted person to 3560 make top-ups for the account holder if they so choose. They can give a trusted friend or relative the permission to do this via the app or via the app website, or this could also be done in store. However method the top-up occurs, the credit will go straight onto the account associated with the meter. The replacement of key meters will start in summer 2021 and Manx Utilities will keep all of its 3565 customers informed as the rollout progresses.

The President: Supplementary, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. 3570 Please could the Chair of the Manx Utilities Authority confirm that the current network of top- up merchants will not shrink as a result of the change? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mr Baker. 3575 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I am happy in principle to agree what the Hon. Member is asking for: that we maintain a good network of retail outlets where customers can top up; I clearly cannot commit to individual locations not changing. But Manx Utilities is very aware of its obligations to all sections of its 3580 customers and recognises the need to ensure that its services are fully accessible and easy for people to get.

The President: Mrs Christian.

3585 Mrs Christian: Thank you. I feel I should absolutely give you a compliment in that as well today, seeing as we are dishing them out. But what I really hope that the Manx Utilities Authority, the Chairman, would look at, specifically in the Douglas South constituency, there is an outlet providing top-ups in both Pulrose and in Anagh Coar, and given the current transport challenges presented by the Pulrose Bridge 3590 diversion, could the Chair provide reassurance that neither of these outlets will be removed from the network so as not to further inconvenience residents of these areas who are on key meters? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mr Baker. ______2150 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

3595 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I am very happy to endorse the principle that the Hon. Member is requesting here. I would need to have a discussion with officers to look at the arrangements around those individual locations before I could make a meaningful commitment. What I will do is commit to engaging with both Hon. Members should there be any concerns 3600 around the sustainability of those locations, because as I said in my previous response, it is important that we make access available easily for people, not just in Douglas South, but across the Island.

The President: Mr Moorhouse. 3605 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. For clarity, in terms of the existing shops providing the opportunity to put the smart meter money into the system, would that enable lost members of the network, such as the shop in Ballasalla, to become part of the network again and provide this service for local people? 3610 The President: Chairman to reply.

The Chairman: Thank you very much, Mr President. I think what I need to emphasise here is that the key benefit of what is being developed is the 3615 ability for people to top up from the comfort of their own homes in a very accessible way, using their mobile phones or their PCs. So we do need to make sure that we have got a sufficient back- up facility in physical locations for people to use but I think the vast majority of customers are going to find it most convenient to top up via their own devices. In terms of particular locations, whether it is Ballasalla or anywhere else, those are operational 3620 matters for Manx Utilities’ management, but I understand the concern that the Hon. Member is expressing.

The President: Mr Thomas, supplementary.

3625 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. I welcome the Chair and the board’s acknowledgement of the difficulty of the board guaranteeing the provision of agency services by a private shop. I welcome that admission. Can the Chair advise whether the board has considered how it might actually purchase shops or employ staff directly to provide the services for meter upgrades? 3630 Secondly, can the Chair advise what communication there has been between the Manx Utilities Authority and the community hub working group and the digital inclusion working group on the inclusion of this sort of service in the framework which will be discussed in July, I hope, when we come back with the community hubs and the digital inclusion reports?

3635 The President: As interesting as these things are, they are not within the scope of the Question. I do not expect the Minister to have the answer to that.

______2151 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

POST OFFICE

31. Post Office counter banking services – Number of outlets; banks involved

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Chairman of the Post Office:

How many Post Office outlets provide over the counter banking services and for which banks?

The President: We will move to Question 31, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. 3640 I would like to ask the Chairman of the Post Office how many post office outlets provide over the counter banking services and for which banks?

The President: Chairman of the Post Office, Ms Edge.

3645 The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): Thank you, Mr President. Limited transactional services are offered to Barclays and Lloyds bank customers at six of the 19 sub-post offices, as per the requirements of each bank.

The President: Mrs Christian. 3650 Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Regarding the recent closures of high-street banking services in local communities and the potential for further future closures, could the Chairman of the Isle of Man Post Office please confirm what measures are being taken to guarantee and protect the provision of over the 3655 counter face-to-face banking services in the sub-post office network, and what are the key threats to the future provision of these services? Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Ms Edge. 3660 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I will be covering some of these within the statement that I will be making later on in the sitting, Mr President. However, Isle of Man Post Office and obviously our sponsoring Department, the Department for Enterprise, are working with various committees that the Chief Minister has set 3665 up: the Community Committee, and there is also one with regard to cash in the community as well. So until we know the outcomes of those and what is proposed, we are in a difficult position. However, with regard to the high street banks, Barclays and Lloyds, that we do provide services for, it is entirely up to them where they wish for those services to be. Thank you, Mr President. 3670 The President: Now, you seem to have attracted a lot of supplementaries. I have got four on my list at the moment. We are having a statement on the Post Office later.

The Speaker: But we do not know … 3675 The President: I wonder if some of the questions could be saved to that; but if not, Mr Cregeen.

The Speaker: We do not know what the statement’s about.

______2152 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

3680 Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. Can the Chairman of the Post Office advise what promotion they do for the banks to advise their customers that they are providing those services in the area?

The President: Ms Edge. 3685 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I am sure, as an ex-Chairman, the Hon. Member will know that the banks decide what services and what promotion we have. It is a contractual agreement with the banks. Thank you, Mr President. 3690 The President: Mr Speaker.

The Speaker: Perhaps an option, Mr President, for Members to put on the Order Paper what the Statement is going to be about, so that we know; we can hardly contain our excitement for 3695 the Statement! (Laughter)

The President: I thought you might know what it was about!

The Speaker: I do not know what it is about! It is not on there. So I am … Perhaps one for future 3700 reference. The question I would like to ask the Chairman though was when they last reviewed their options for actually obtaining a banking licence themselves and expanding banking services as a Post Office, and when was that last looked at?

3705 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously, as it has been a hot topic, the board have recently discussed that and we have also contacted the FSA. Currently there is no intention for us to look at going for a full banking licence. I am sure many Hon. Members in here will appreciate that the infrastructure that is required to operate a full banking licence is perhaps out of Isle of Man Post Office’s reach, and it is certainly 3710 something for Treasury to consider for the future of banking services for the Island.

The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. 3715 Given the banks have saved considerable overheads by closing branches, does this mean that sub-post offices are likely to be offered an increased rate of management fee or commission to allow them to viably continue to offer these lifeline services, and is the Isle of Man Post Office pursuing this aim on their behalf? Thank you, Mr President. 3720 The President: Ms Edge.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously it is a commercial agreement that we have with the banks, it is a fixed term 3725 agreement, and whenever a review of that takes place consideration is taken as to the costs and what transactional costs then go to the sub-postmasters. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas. 3730 Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. ______2153 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Does the Chair agree with me that the request to the Tynwald administration in terms of what the statement was about was very clear? It is about the Tynwald resolution in the context of the five-year strategy. So I just wanted to make that clear. It was done about three weeks ago and 3735 unfortunately it was missed off the first Order Paper. Secondly, does the Chair agree with me that it is very important that we differentiate between the different types of services that can be carried out inside a post office? Cash transaction services, which is what Lloyds and Barclays offer through post offices, is very different, in fact, from banking services, as normally seen when banking services is about deposit taking and 3740 lending. Cash transaction is very different from banking services. Thirdly, does the Chair agree with me that the board welcomes the recent decision by the Department for Enterprise to launch an investigation in this space to support the community hub committee’s investigation in this and we are very much looking forward to having the investigations that have gone on five years ago and 10 years ago and 15 years ago modernised 3745 and the Post Office is fully committed, and has already in fact provided all of the regulatory input and all the experience input into that process?

The President: Ms Edge.

3750 The Chairman: I agree, Mr President.

The President: Thank you. Mr Cregeen.

3755 Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. I was just wondering if the Chairman would take the opportunity to give those branches who do have banking a bit of publicity, because she is not usually shy at coming forward, because I do know Lloyds that are in Castletown, you have got Barclays at a few other places, and is there anything in the contract with the banks that is stopping the Post Office from publicising which 3760 branches they have banking services in? I think that needs to be put out there: where you can actually do those banking services in the Post Office.

The President: Ms Edge.

3765 The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I am happy to. We have Barclays counter services offered in Peel, Port Erin, Laxey, Port St Mary and Kirk Onchan, because there are two post offices in Onchan, and Lloyds counter services are offered at Peel and Castletown. But as I said, the contractual agreements with the banks are very clear as to how and what is advertised. 3770 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Last year the FSA suggested to the Economic Policy Review Committee that a full banking 3775 licence was not required to offer basic savings-related accounts. Is this something the Post Office can look at? You do not need the full complex banking licence; it can just be an amended version of it. Thank you.

3780 The President: Ms Edge.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President.

______2154 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Obviously the recent discussions we have had with the FSA around this with regard to savings and full counter services … we did need a full licence. We do offer transactional services, which 3785 was an agreement – for cash transaction services – which was an agreement with the FSA that was quickly thought up and brought about from the closure of Santander. So the FSA were flexible with us on that, but certainly with regard to savings, it is not something that we are actually considering at the present time. Thank you, Mr President. 3790 The President: Final supplementary, I think, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. Does the Chair agree with me that a little bit of knowledge of the statute around the Post Office 3795 and the licensing regime of the Isle of Man regulator is a dangerous thing, and in fact the Post Office has submitted detailed information about exactly what it can do, which is a huge amount under existing legislation, to the investigation that is being carried out by the Department for Enterprise for the community hubs working group?

3800 The President: Chairman.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I do agree with the Vice-Chair, and obviously we will be contributing to any of the committees. We have certainly sat in front of one of the committees to contribute what benefits or how Isle of 3805 Man Post Office could work with any of the recommendations from various committees. Obviously we have always said, as a Post Office, we are committed to providing services in the community that are viable.

The President: Now, Hon. Members, that completes Questions for Oral Answers. We have 3810 completed all of the Questions on the Paper in exactly the time allotted, which is quite remarkable! (Laughter and interjections)

______2155 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Questions for Written Answer

POLICY AND REFORM

7. Area Plan for the North and West – Publicity and engagement before 25th June 2021

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

How preliminary publicity and engagement are being handled for the Area Plan for the North and West before 25th June 2021?

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): I am grateful to the Hon. Member of Council for her Question, which provides me with an opportunity to update this Hon. Court on the 3815 extensive work being undertaken at this important preliminary publicity stage of the Area Plan for the North and West. The Planning Policy Team is part way through a 10-week consultation on the Preliminary Publicity stage of the Area Plan. As at 11th May, 45 responses have been received via post, email and electronically. 3820 To assist local authorities, published maps were sent to all authorities within the plan boundary to support their understanding; which can also be used in public displays where possible. Whilst all documents are online, we understand that reading maps digitally in this way can be difficult and are much easier to read in person. Cabinet Office is was also invited to discuss the plan at Michael Parish Commissioners meeting on 5th May and I accompanied officers on that evening. 3825 To support this stage of the plan process, Planning Policy Officers are currently hosting drop- in sessions in Peel and Ramsey for the public and anyone with an interest in the plan process. The first one was held last week in Ramsey Town Hall and our officers are there again on 21st May. Drop-in sessions are being held at the House of Manannan in Peel on the 18th and 24th May. A Public Notice setting out details was in the Courier last week. 3830 Behind the scenes, our officers are liaising across all Government Departments and Statutory Boards and with other bodies and Special Interest Groups (as necessary) to better understand the issues ahead of compiling the draft plan. In order to reach as wide an audience as possible, we also took on board Hon. Members’ advice regarding our social media usage from the last Area Plan debate in that we are sending out 3835 messages on Government social media channels letting the public know about engagement events and this will continue throughout the plan process.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

23. Manx wheat harvest – Meeting demand for Manx flour

The Hon. Member for Douglas South (Mrs Christian) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

Pursuant to his Answer on 17th November 2020 whether the 2021 Manx wheat harvests are likely to be sufficient to meet demand for Manx flour without further imports of UK milling wheat?

______2156 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Whilst Laxey Glen Mills (LGM) is a Government-owned company, it is also an autonomous body in its own right. It is an arm’s- length business that the Treasury is responsible for. 3840 The Department has met with various sections of the Milling Wheat to Bread supply chain over the last few days and weeks, to explore how best to ensure all stage in the chain are appropriately aligned and rewarded for their efforts; with a further meeting with the Manx National Farmers’ Union (MNFU), producers and directors of LGM planned for 22nd June. If a consensus agreement cannot be achieved then a whole different approach may be appropriate. However, we are very 3845 hopeful that a good future can be secured to enable the continued reliable supply of local bread and flour, without the risk of shortages every time the boat does not sail. The Department has not provided any funding to support the importation of UK wheat. However, we have supported efforts to incentivise this current season’s harvest. The ‘Produce Of’ provenance label used by LGM has been affected by the decision to import 3850 wheat from the UK to supplement its local supply, therefore all Laxey Flour products can currently only be considered as ‘Made in’ Isle of Man. The Department has been informed by LGM that they have changed their packaging to suit the new wheat supply situation, removing the ‘Product of Isle of Man’ and ‘milled from Isle of Man wheat’ statements from their bags and replaced with the wording ‘Milled on the Isle of Man’. 3855 The Department understands that Ramsey Bakery have come to an agreement with LGM to continue to buy some flour from them. The Department works closely with all the key producers. However, Laxey Flour is not a Government-run business; it falls within the remit of the board of directors to ensure that they have contracts in place with growers that will secure supplies of milling wheat that are adequate 3860 to meet the needs of their customers. COVID-19 saw an unprecedented increase in flour sales and Laxey Mill increased its milling capability to ensure that the Island was kept in stock of flour throughout the pandemic. However, this increase in production combined with a poor-weather-affected harvest has led to a shortage of flour milled from locally grown wheat this year. 3865 Last year LGM had 12 growers contracted to supply it with milling wheat. The decision to stock a product is down to the individual retailer. Laxey flour is Safe and Local Supplier Approval (SALSA) accredited and is stocked by all major retailers on the island. Customers who cannot find flour in their local shop should contact the owner of the business and ask them to stock LGM’s flour, thereby supporting local farmers and food producers.

CHIEF MINISTER

32. Business cases to Treasury/CoMin – Inclusion of climate change targets

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Chief Minister:

How climate change targets are being included in business cases to Treasury and the Council of Ministers?

3870 The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Members may recall that the Bill we recently agreed requires that before April 2022 general guidance be issued to all statutory bodies to explain how they can fulfil their climate change duties and the implications of their new obligations under the Bill. In considering those guidelines, discussions have been held internally on the best ways for Departments to include climate impact assessments within business cases and other

______2157 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

3875 Departmental papers. The Climate Change Team are also undertaking work to include climate impacts in the economic appraisals of policies. The team are currently looking at the best methodology that can be used to assess and compare the impact on climate change and greenhouse gas emissions with a view to rolling out climate impact assessments across Isle of Man Government once the statutory obligations come 3880 into force under the Climate Change Bill in May 2023. Until this date, and once the Bill has taken effect, the Council of Ministers must require Government Departments, when approving a policy or approving a change in policy, making a decision on a procurement matter or making any other decision, to take account of the impact that the policy or decision will have on climate change. This will include business cases to Treasury 3885 and the Council of Ministers.

33. Telecommunications development – Review of where permitted; Strategic Plan Infrastructure Policy 3

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Chief Minister:

What consultation and other engagement has taken place in respect of (a) the Council of Ministers’ review of where telecommunications development has been permitted and (b) how Strategic Plan 2016 Infrastructure Policy 3 has been applied; and when he will report to Tynwald with proposals?

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): In terms of the Council of Ministers Review –part (a) – the Department entered into dialogue with officers from the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture (DEFA), the Department for Enterprise (DfE) and the Communications and Utilities Regulatory Agency (CURA)1. DEFA undertakes the role of determining planning applications and 3890 prior approvals for telecommunications development. DfE is tasked with implementing the National Telecommunications Strategy and interfacing with CURA and licensed operators and Cabinet Office has statutory responsibility for making (and amending as necessary) development orders that provide for the grant of planning approval. In terms of part (b) of the Question, the Council of Ministers’ Review has taken into account 3895 Infrastructure Policy 3 set out in the Isle of Man Strategic Plan 2016, how this has been applied and the future opportunities to review it. The intention is to meet the provisions of the motion approved in January 2021 Tynwald, which required the Council of Ministers to report back to Tynwald in June 2021 with proposals.

1 Para. 1.8. COMIN Public Engagement and Consultation Principles – ‘There are times when formal consultation is not needed, for example, when Government acts to respond to international obligations or for minor or technical amendments to regulation or existing policy frameworks. The principles and guidance emphasises the importance of understanding the effects of a proposal, and focusing on real engagement with key groups rather than following a set process. This approach offers flexibility, and encourages Departments to be creative when planning consultations’.

______2158 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

TREASURY

34. Tynwald resolution on charity banking – Treasury action taken

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What action he has taken since the Tynwald resolution on charity banking?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): In considering how legislation to make basic 3900 banking services free of charge for small charities and other not-for-profit clubs, societies and associations could be introduced, Treasury is conscious of developments in terms of how banks are used, how services are provided and of the general move in society away from traditional means of delivering services. Treasury also notes views expressed during the debate in Tynwald urging caution, lest the 3905 Government becomes involved in regulating how private companies, or certain private companies, may make their operational decisions. Treasury is nevertheless considering and discussing with the Financial Services Authority whether there are appropriate regulatory options that may be pursued or other measures that could be provided for in legislation. Treasury recognises this is a matter of public interest, which requires resolution. However, it is 3910 also important to find a solution that secures both the social and the economic well-being of our community. This is unlikely to be achievable within the life of this administration.

35. Bona Vacantia fund – Publishing successful business cases and award process

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Pursuant to his Answer to Written Question 29 in April 2021 Tynwald, if he will publish the business cases which attracted funding from the Bona Vacantia Fund, and details of the process by which the successful bids were identified and awarded?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Any payments made from Bona Vacantia funds vesting in Treasury are approved under section 4 of the Financial Provisions and Currency Act 2011 which grants the Treasury the power to promote the well-being of the Island. A report detailing 3915 commitments made under this legislation is provided to Tynwald each year. Government Departments and Offices may make a formal request to Treasury to utilise these funds but a bid would only be successful where Treasury has the legal vires to make such a payment. The parameters set by the aforementioned legislation are as follows:

 The promotion or improvement of the Island’s economy; 3920  The promotion or improvement of the social well-being of the Island;  The promotion or improvement of the Island’s environment.

If a bid was received that did not meet any of the above factors, the bid would be unsuccessful. Treasury would in practice only seek to use these funds where it can be demonstrated that a bid would bring a clear benefit to the community and there is no other appropriate internal fund from 3925 which funds should be taken. Treasury does not plan to publish the business cases regarding the awards from Bona Vacantia over the last five years.

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36. Climate change targets – Incentives and application to 2022 Budget process

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

How climate change targets are being (a) incentivised and (b) applied to the 2022 Budget process?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The budget parameters for the 2021-22 Budget have not yet been set by the Treasury and will be considered at the appropriate time as part of 3930 the planning for next year’s budget. The standard template for budget bids contains a section to ask bidding authorities to identify the impact on the environment of the proposal (including climate change implications) and also any planned mitigation for this impact. This template has not been universally used by Departments in the past; however the Treasury will consider mandating the use of the template 3935 as part of the preparation process for the 2022-23 Budget. The Budget agreed in February included further provision for £10 million into the Climate Change Fund; access to these funds is controlled by the Climate Change Steering Board along with the Climate Change Transformation Board, Treasury and ultimately Council of Ministers.

37. Accounting For Sustainability Chief Financial Officer Net Zero Statement of Support – Treasury plans to sign

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Whether Treasury plans to sign the A4S Chief Financial Officer Net Zero Statement of Support?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Treasury will need to fully examine the 3940 requirement and commitment expected of an organisation signing the Accounting For Sustainability Chief Financial Officer Net Zero Statement of Support and how those requirements fit with the current Climate Change initiatives.

38. Tendering process – Applying climate change outcomes

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

How climate change outcomes are being applied to the tendering process?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The Phase One Action Plan for Climate Change agreed by Tynwald in January 2020 includes an action to ‘Develop and implement a Climate Impact 3945 Assessment to be required as part of all Government procurement processes’ Accordingly, engagement between the Climate Change Team and Treasury has been ongoing to review how the Treasury procurement policy can co-ordinate with the Phase One Action Plan for Climate Change and what changes might be required. In the meantime, however, additional wording has been added to quick quote templates used 3950 by Procurement to ensure suppliers include justification on how their proposal fits with our climate change net zero goals. ______2160 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

39. Government’s investment mandates – Applying climate change outcomes

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

How climate change objectives are being applied in Government’s investment mandates?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The Investment Mandate is a set of guidelines that we issue to our Investment Managers at the time of appointment. The Investment Committee has oversight of the Investment Mandate. If there were to be any strategic changes they would be put 3955 forward by the Committee to Treasury Board for consideration. The Treasury have become a signatory with Principles for Responsible Investment (PRI). By becoming a signatory Treasury have agreed to the six principles set out by PRI which include exploring and acting on Environmental, Social and Governance (ESG) issues. ESG in relation to investments is a way of measuring the sustainability and ethical impact of an 3960 investment in a business or company. By incorporating the standards into the new mandate Treasury can ensure the public funds are being invested into what can be described as more ‘green’ investments. The Investment Committee are committed to adopting and implementing the principles in the best interest of the public finances. These principles offer possible actions for incorporating ESG 3965 factors into investment practices. Climate Change is one of the factors considered when looking into the Environment element of ESG. The Investment Committee have engaged with the appointed Investment Adviser as to how the mandate can incorporate ESG standards to which the Investment Managers must adhere, the performance of these will be reported on by Treasury when the new mandate is in place.

40. Taskforce on Climate-related Financial Disclosures recommendations – Annual reporting on Government performance

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What plans he has to report annually in the financial statements on Government’s performance against the Taskforce on Climate-related Financial Disclosures recommendations?

3970 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The Treasury is reviewing the recommendations proposed by the Task Force. When including reporting disclosures within the Audited Government Accounts (known as the Dark Blue Book) they become auditable in accordance with UK Financial Reporting Standards. It is therefore crucial that any data and performance metrics included are based on accurate and 3975 verifiable data. Treasury’s aim is to provide a standardised and simplified set of Government Accounts which will be in the form of an Annual Report. Should the Task Force recommendations be agree as being appropriate for inclusion these will be reported on and included within these accounts.

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41. Treasury issued summonses – Details during and after each lockdown

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

How many summonses were issued on the instruction of Treasury officers (a) in each of the three lockdowns and (b) in the 10 working days after each lockdown, broken down by those directed to: (i) individuals (ii) businesses and (iii) other entities; and further broken down by summonses for (1) non-payment and underpayment of National Insurance; (2) non-payment and underpayment of VAT; (3) other non-payments; and (4) other issues?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Only Treasury’s Income Tax Division issued 3980 summonses in the periods outlined in the Hon. Member’s Question and are detailed in the following table: Table 41A

Summonses issued by Income Tax Division Individuals Businesses Other entities Lockdown 1 0 0 0 10 Working days after 0 0 0 Lockdown 2 0 0 0 10 Working days after 0 0 0 14 – non-payment/under Lockdown 3 6 – other issues payment of NI/IT 0 1 – other issues 10 Working days after 0 0 0

 Please note that National Insurance and Income Tax are on the same summons and therefore have been categorised together as non-payment or under payment of National Insurance and/or Income Tax. The 14 summonses issued to businesses in lockdown 3 are in respect of ITIP and National Insurance contributions deducted from employees’ salaries for the 2019-20 Income Tax year and not paid to Treasury.

42. Road transport licensing income and expenditure – Source and changes over time

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What the total income and expenditure for road transport licensing is in 2021-22 and was in (a) 2020-21, (b) 2019-20, (c) 2016/17, (d) 2011-12 and (e) 2006-07; and how the (i) sources of income and (ii) components of expenditure have changed in those years?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The income and expenditure actual and budget figures for the years requested are shown in the following tables. As a general rule, income targets are uplifted by 2% per annum across Government. Certain elements of employee budgets, such 3985 as basic pay, superannuation and National Insurance are uplifted generally by between 1% and 2%.

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20/21 Actual Budget Variance License fees - road licensing - 47,630 - 60,004 - 12,374 License fees - goods vehicles - 27,081 - 27,081 Total Income - 74,711 - 60,004 14,707

Employee costs 136,872 131,704 - 5,168 Supplies & services 16,055 17,400 1,345 Total Expenses 152,927 149,104 - 3,823 78,216 89,100 10,884

19/20 Actual Budget Variance License fees - road licensing - 53,400 - 56,497 - 3,097 License fees - goods vehicles - 23,090 - 23,090 Total Income - 76,490 - 56,497 19,993

Employee costs 144,551 129,360 - 15,191 Supplies & services 26,012 17,400 - 8,612 Total Expenses 170,563 146,760 - 23,803 94,073 90,263 - 3,810 Prior to these years supplies and services budgets were reduced as a result of centralisation of services:  £7,900 to GTS 3990  £10,900 centralised within DEFA for printing, stationery, furniture, postage costs

16/17 Actual Budget Variance License fees - road licensing - 52,344 - 44,880 7,464 Total Income - 52,344 - 44,880 7,464

Employee costs 111,201 124,552 13,351 Infrastucture costs 17 1,000 983 Supplies & services 25,750 35,200 9,450 Total Expenses 136,968 160,752 23,784 84,624 115,872 31,248

11/12 Actual Budget Variance License fees - road licensing - 35,042 - 41,900 - 6,858 Total Income - 35,042 - 41,900 - 6,858

Employee costs 103,386 156,800 53,414 Infrastucture costs - 1,000 1,000 Supplies & services 35,113 38,100 2,987 Total Expenses 138,499 195,900 57,401 103,457 154,000 50,543

06/07 Actual Budget Variance License fees - road licensing - 41,915 - 36,050 5,865 Total Income - 41,915 - 36,050 5,865

Employee costs 104,446 178,250 73,804 Infrastucture costs 38,163 40,300 2,137 Supplies & services 28,254 26,500 - 1,754 Total Expenses 170,863 245,050 74,187 128,948 209,000 80,052

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43. Road Transport Licensing Committee – Budget submissions since September 2016

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

What budget submissions he has received in relation to the Road Transport Licensing Committee since September 2016?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): The Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture submitted a revenue budget bid as part of the 2020-21 Budget submissions on behalf of the Road Transport Licensing Committee. The bid was for a one-year appointment of a goods vehicle inspector (20 hours per month) and 3995 was for £6,000. The bid was not approved by Treasury and the Department was asked to fund this from within their existing budget allocation.

44. Nursing and residential homes charges – Treasury policy on equity; value of charge over properties

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for the Treasury:

Pursuant to his Answer to Question 2 in the House of Keys on 4th May 2021 (a) what his Department determines equity to be; (b) what charge his Department has over each property, broken down by 4 digit postcode; and what the value of each charge over such properties belonging to residents in care homes is?

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): As I stated in my Answer to Question 2 in the House of Keys on 4th May 2021, the Treasury does not hold any equity in houses which belong to 4000 residents of care homes and never has done. Furthermore it has no power to do so. Consequently –  as regards part (a) of the Question, the Treasury makes no determinations of equity in relation to property owned by residents of care homes for the purposes of placing any 4005 charge on a property; and  as regards part (b) of the Question, the Treasury has no charges over such properties.

POLICY AND REFORM

45. Area Plan for the North and West – Key dates and milestones

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Policy and Reform:

What the key dates and milestones are in connection with the Area Plan for the North and West?

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): The Area Plan process will follow the ‘development plan procedure’ set out in Schedule 1 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1999. ______2164 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The statutory consultation periods are generally extended to meet Council of Ministers’ 4010 consultation principles. For example, the Preliminary Publicity Consultation which is currently underway is for a period of 10 weeks. The key milestones in the production of the Area Plan are: Call for Sites – commenced 31st May 2019 – extended 15th October 2019 – ended 28th February 2020. 4015 Preliminary Publicity – commenced 16th April 2021 and will end on 25th June 2021. Publication of the Draft Plan – a draft Plan must be published within 12 months of the close of the Preliminary Publicity. Draft Plan Consultation – there is a statutory requirement for a six-week consultation under the Act but using the Government guidance, this will last for a minimum of 10 weeks. 4020 Public Inquiry – this is anticipated to be between June and September 2022 but may be subject to change. Inspector’s Report – this will be published on receipt following the Public Inquiry. Modifications – if modifications are proposed, there is a statutory requirement for a 21-day period for representations or objections to be submitted but this is generally extended, taking 4025 into account the Consultation Guidance. Departmental Adoption – the Plan is adopted by Order. Tynwald – the Plan must be approved within three months of being adopted.

ENTERPRISE

46. Construction Isle of Man – Membership, categories and contributions received 2020 and 2021

The Hon. Member for Onchan (Ms Edge) to ask the Minister for Enterprise:

How many members there were, and in what categories, in Construction Isle of Man in (a) April 2020 and (b) April 2021; and how much was received in contributions from each category?

The Minister for Enterprise (Mr Skelly): Construction Isle of Man (CIOM) was incorporated in November 2020, therefore information with regard to membership of CIOM prior to this date is 4030 unavailable. The CIOM application process went live on 1st April 2021, with businesses able to apply for membership of CIOM Accredited (the successor of the Manx Accredited Contractors Scheme operated by the IOM Construction Federation) from this date. The initial applications to join CIOM Accredited are currently being received and processed. There is no set annual renewal date for CIOM Accreditation membership, and therefore applications will be accepted throughout 4035 the year and processed as they are received. CIOM will be running a marketing campaign throughout 2021 to build the CIOM Accredited membership in terms of numbers and breadth of industry represented. Therefore it is unlikely that a full picture of the membership of CIOM will be available until April 2022.

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EDUCATION, SPORT AND CULTURE

47. School uniform policy – Affordability and fairness

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Education, Sport and Culture:

What action the Department will take in connection with uniform policy to make the purchase of school uniform and PE kit fair and affordable for parents?

The Minister for Education, Sport and Culture (Dr Allinson): Uniforms create identify and a 4040 sense of belonging, but allow for a common dress code, not driven by fashion or social status. Schools are currently permitted to make decisions and formulate their own policies with regard to the detailed nature of the uniform, in conjunction with their governing body, and have well- developed practices and guidance for pupils and parents. Schools are mindful of the financial burden that uniforms can place upon families. Parents are 4045 encouraged to approach the Head Teacher if they are experiencing particular difficulties. Schools will then support parents in exploring options. Options that are available include second-hand uniforms, using funds available from third sector providers and dedicated funds held by DESC. The cost of different PE and sports clothing has also been identified as a source of financial 4050 pressure for some families. This subject has been raised at the Education Council. The Department is currently reviewing all existing polices, and will continue to work closely with schools to ensure all policies meet the needs of pupils, their families or carers and the wider community.

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND AGRICULTURE

48. Manx mountain hares – Protected species status

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

What plans his Department has to make the Manx mountain hare a protected species under the Manx Wildlife Act?

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): The mountain hare was 4055 introduced to the Isle of Man uplands north of the Central Valley in the 1950s, by a local group, and with Government permission, as an addition to the game-shooting interest, as provided for in the Game Acts. It was therefore classified as game at the time of introduction, but in the early 1970s they were moved to the vermin list. This move was due to the significant increase in numbers and the 4060 resulting damage to crops and freshly planted conifers during the upland afforestation and perceived risk as vectors for disease as tick carriers. Since then a perceived general, but unstudied, decline in numbers led to the Department’s upland stakeholders recommending that the Department afford the species an extra level of protection by returning them to the game list which would afford them a closed season.

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4065 It has also appeared that illegal coursing with dogs had become a problem in some areas and the move to re-classify hares under the Games Act means that there would be stronger powers of protection and more scope for prosecution. Re-classification under the Games Act would provide scope for varying the protection should the populations either increase or decrease significantly, including an all-year closed season were 4070 that to be deemed appropriate. This hare is known to show sizeable changes in population, in cycles, and their young, leverets, are susceptible to predation by various species of predatory birds which in turn is reflected in the cyclical population as a prey species. It would be rather exceptional to place this species on Schedule 5 of the Wildlife Act, as it is an 4075 introduced population and there is no evidence of its presence previously. The criteria for assessment for Schedule 5 of the Wildlife Act essentially sets out that species may be listed, if they are in danger of extinction in the Island or likely to become so if conservation measures are not taken; or in order to comply with an international obligation. Species must generally be native, however, though an established but introduced species can be considered 4080 exceptionally, if endangered or extinct in its native range, naturally occurring in Britain, and evidence suggests that it is unlikely to have a negative impact on island ecosystems. The criteria are not primarily aimed at the protection of such species, but this is not ruled out, if there is a need for it and a useful effect, that fits the criteria for exceptional inclusion of a non- native species. 4085 Whilst my Department does not have evidence or reason to believe that this species is in any imminent danger on the Isle of Man, such as may warrant full protection for this species, officers will continue to monitor the situation and should it be necessary will begin a formal assessment.

49. Manx mountain hare and lowland brown hare – Population decline

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mr Henderson, to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

Whether the populations of the (a) Manx mountain hare and (b) lowland brown hare are in general decline?

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): There is no specific standardised monitoring on the Isle of Man on any broad scale to determine accurately the 4090 populations of the Manx mountain hare and lowland brown hare. With specific regard to mountain hares, it should be noted that species that have evolved as upland specialists tend to be hard to survey accurately and with ease due to their ability to conceal themselves in an open environment particularly where they occur in low densities and at a landscape scale. 4095 However from the information obtained from my officers with knowledge of nature conservation and game preservation in my Department there is a well-educated view as to which end of a population cycle this species is at from casual sightings and feedback from our knowledgeable upland tenants. Whilst it is felt that the mountain hare population may be at the low end of their population 4100 cycle, it is also a commonly held view that there has been a general decline over the last three decades. However, one must note that a range of upland breeding species have also declined, on the hills, over the same time period, including curlew, a truly native species and red grouse. The cause of these declines is complicated and not fully understood, but a fragmentation of upland

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habitats over the preceding decades and an increase in naturally occurring predator species are 4105 thought to be contributing factors. In the 1970s, a study identified the distributions of the two species and thereby provides a baseline for comparison with any resurvey. The mountain hares have only ever occurred in the uplands north of the Central Valley. With regard to lowland brown hares, a species introduced to Britain from Europe in the Iron 4110 Age, I am informed that this species has flourished on the Island over recent decades colonising farmland where they were previously absent, particularly south of the Central Valley. Internationally, brown hares are considered a species of least concern for conservation, both globally and in Europe, specifically. Given the information above and the knowledge of those involved with nature conservation 4115 and game preservation in my Department, it is felt that though there is concern regarding the protection of the mountain hare population (hence proposals to change the Game Act); however neither population is in imminent danger. Our uplands have always been held in high esteem and my Department has a strong commitment to maintaining and enhancing our upland landscape and environment. 4120 Projects being delivered within my Department will seek to provide the habitats required for these species. The upland peatland restoration project, which is focused in a key mountain hare habitat and the new agri-environment scheme will not only help to provide the habitats required but will deliver multiple positive environmental outcomes.

50. Telecommunications masts, lampposts, etc. – Law and policy for conservation areas/registered buildings

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

What the law and policy are regarding telecommunications masts, lampposts and other similarly sized structures in (a) conservation areas and (b) the grounds of registered buildings?

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): The law regarding 4125 telecommunications masts, lampposts and similarly sized structures in Conservation Areas and the grounds of Registered Buildings is set out in the Town and Country Planning Act, The General Permitted Development Order 2012, the Telecommunications Development Order 2019. The policy regarding telecommunications masts, lampposts and similarly sized structures in Conservation Areas and the grounds of Registered Buildings is contained within the Strategic Plan; 4130 any relevant area or local plan; Planning Policy Statement 1/01 Policy and Guidance Notes for the Conservation of the Historic Environment of the Isle of Man. Other material considerations include the National Telecommunications Strategy 2018 and Digital Inclusion Strategy (2016) and Programme for Government.

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51. Registered food businesses – Publishing list on Government website

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

If he will list the registered food businesses; and if he will publish the list of registered food businesses on the Government website?

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): All food businesses are legally 4135 required to register with the Department. There are currently around 1,500 food businesses registered, of different sizes and complexity, from large food manufacturers to small child minding operations and home bakers working from domestic premises. The number of food businesses fluctuate as new businesses begin whilst some may cease to trade. The Department does not currently publish the food business register as it contains sensitive 4140 information, for example home addresses of some home caterers, small care facilities, child minders, etc. However, some information contained on the register is available upon request and we are looking at simplifying the data which may then be published online. As Members will be aware, my Department proposes to introduce a Food Hygiene Rating scheme similar to those found in other jurisdictions. Food Hygiene Rating schemes provide 4145 consumers with the opportunity to make an informed choice of where to eat and buy food based on hygiene standards. The Regulations will provide for the implementation of a food hygiene rating scheme and the food hygiene ratings of all registered food businesses will be published on the Government website.

52. Registered animal boarding establishments – Publishing list on Government website

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

If he will list the registered animal boarding establishments; and if he will publish the list of registered animal boarding establishments on the Government website?

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): The list of animal boarding 4150 establishments is published on the Department’s website. Link:https://www.gov.im/categories/travel-traffic-and-motoring/travelling-with- pets/kennels-and-catteries/ The list comprises establishments that passed inspection for the issue of 2019-20 licences. Due to the consequence of coronavirus, there was a reduced number of applications during 4155 this period. In addition, operational restrictions during coronavirus as well as redirected resources affected the Department’s ability to carry out physical inspections of the businesses and their premises. The Department has not received any reports of any issues or complaints related to services provided by such establishments. Arrangements are in process to facilitate licencing of businesses wishing to renew their licences 4160 and any new applications in due course and the website will be updated accordingly.

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53. Road Transport Licensing Committee – Applications awaiting approval

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture:

How many applications, and what kind, await approval by the Road Transport Licensing Committee; and when each of these applications was submitted to the Road Transport Licensing Committee?

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Please see the following Table 53A. The Road Transport Regulations 2018, section 5, states that certain applications to the RTLC must be considered in public. 4165 The majority of the applications which are outstanding fall into this category. Due to the Covid lockdowns, the RTLC has only been able to meet twice so far this year, which has contributed to a delay in processing the applications.

Table 53A

Range of Type of Application No. Comments Dates

These are the ConnectPorts and ConnectVillages A Section 25 Regular applications which are subject to objections. As the Service Licence to replace 2 02-Jul-19 applications were received before expiry of existing an existing one licences, the legislation allows for the existing licences to remain in place until the applications are disposed of.

A Section 25 Regular Both are DRT applications which are subject to objections. Service Licence - no 2 15-Jan-21 No existing licences exist. existing licence

Variation of a Section 25 15-Jan-21 to 7 Regular Service Licence 11-May-21

Applications received after 31 Jan 20 need full Planning New Goods Vehicle 28-Oct-19 to permission before they can be considered by RTLC. There 12 Operator Registration 15-Mar-21 are 8 of these. The other four have been considered by the RTLC but been deferred for various reasons. Applications received after 31 Jan 20 need full Planning New Goods Vehicle 18-Mar-20 to permission and confirmation of a Certificate of 4 Operator Licence 07-Apr-21 Professional Competence holder before they can be considered by RTLC. All four fall into this category. Variation of a Goods 03-Feb-21 to Vehicle Operator 3 08-Apr-21 Registration

Variation of a Goods 08-Mar-21 to 2 Vehicle Operator Licence 21-Apr-21

New Public Passenger 15-Dec-20 to Vehicle Operator 2 30-Apr-21 Registration

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Variation of a Public The 13 Nov 20 application was subject to objections. It was 13-Nov-20 to Passenger Vehicle 6 due to be heard at a meeting in March 2021 which had to 13-May-21 Operator Registration be cancelled due to the COVID lockdown.

A Section 29 Ply for Hire The 04 Dec 20 application had related objections. It was 04-Dec-20 to Service Licence to replace 7 due to be heard at a meeting in March 2021 which had to 11-May-21 an existing one be cancelled due to the COVID lockdown.

A Section 29 Ply for Hire Service Licence – no 1 13-May-21 existing licence

HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE

54. Full-time hospital consultants in 2020-21 – Numbers by pay range

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

How many full-time hospital consultants there are; and how many were paid (a) £200,000 or more; (b) £150,000-£199,999; (c) £100,000-£149,999; (d) under £100,000, in 2020-21?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): There were 59 full-time consultants employed throughout the period 1st April 2020 to 31st March 2021. This figures excludes 4170 14 doctors who commenced or ceased employment during the year.

No. of Consultants by Pay Range Number £200k + 26 £150k - £199,999 23 £100k - £149,999 10 Under £100k 0

55. Public defibrillators – Listing, mapping and publicising locations

The Hon. Member for Ramsey (Mr Hooper) to ask the Minister for Health and Social Care:

Whether there is (a) a list and (b) a map of all publicly accessible automated external defibrillator machines on Island; and what steps his Department has taken to publicise where they are?

The Minister for Health and Social Care (Mr Ashford): The Ambulance Service has been working on a defibrillator registration and mapping project with GTS for some time now. Unfortunately, over the last year priorities shifted due to COVID and this project was unable to be progressed as previously planned. 4175 GTS has advised that that they are currently testing the system. We hope to deploy the test system to live and officially launch in two months’ time. Once launched we will have a system whereby the public can register their defibrillator online and this will then show the location on a map of the Isle of Man.

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INFRASTRUCTURE

56. DoI Highways schemes – Budget submissions for last three years

The Hon. Member for Rushen (Mr Speaker) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

If he will publish the Department’s budget submissions to Treasury in respect of Highways schemes for the last three years, broken down by (i) approved and (ii) not approved, (iii) the budgeted cost and (iv) reasons given for refusal?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The Department’s budget submissions to Treasury 4180 in respect of Highways schemes for the last three years are shown in Table 56A below. The table contains the answer to the first three parts of the Question. The fourth part of the Question, regarding reasons for refusal cannot be answered by the Department as written feedback is not provided.

Table 56A Highway Services schemes submission to Treasury by the Department of Infrastructure for the past three years

Submitted for 2021-22

Approved/ Budget Division Capital Scheme Not request Approved £37,300,000 of Yes for which £6,250,000 £6,250,000 was approved. Climate Change Adaptation Douglas and HSD/MUA Laxey Flood Risk Mitigation HSD Flood Prevention (Maintenance Increase) £1,000,000 No HSD Laxey Embankment (Treasury Land) £455,000 No HSD Heritage Trail (St Johns – Kirk Michael) £1,502,209 No HSD Coastal footpath £1,173,534 No HSD Castletown Promenade Revetment £4,905,000 No HSD Bay Ny Carrickey Revetment £11,118,000 No HSD Peel Promenade Revetment £9,265,000 No HSD Strathallan Revetment £10,137,000 No HSD Kirk Michael Rock Revetment £2,507,000 No

Submitted for 2020-21

Approved/ Budget Division Capital Scheme Not request Approved HSD Malew and Arbory Street (Castletown) £396,900 No Relocatable Modular Car Park for Parade No Street HSD £1,972,000 HSD Heritage Trail St John Kirk Michael £1,232,735 Yes HSD Urban Design Improvements St Johns £481,875 No HSD Ballasalla Bypass Roundabout £1,968,031 No HSD Church Road Port Erin £2,035,840 No

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Submitted for 2019-20

Approved/ Budget Division Capital Scheme Not request Approved HSD A5 Santon HSD £986,000 Yes HSD Balthane Junction £1,371,808 No HSD Bay View Rd PSM HSD £1,000,000 No HSD Church Road Port Erin HSD £2,035,840 No HSD Peel Promenade Link Road £626,000 No HSD Douglas Promenade Walkway HSD £1,934,758 Yes HSD Glencrutchery Road Reconstruction HSD £5,050,000 No HSD Malew and Arbory St Castletown HSD £395,000 No HSD Peel Lanes HSD £625,716 No HSD Pulrose River Bridge Missed Sum HSD £150,000 No HSD Quarry Plant Equipment £474,758 No HSD Refurbishment Michael St Peel HSD £684,600 Yes

Key

Approved Not Approved

57. Burroughs Stewart project management team – Promenade site visits since January 2020

The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

On how many occasions since January 2020 the Burroughs Stewart project management team has attended the promenade site; who attended; how long for; and what they discussed?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Auldyn Construction Ltd maintains paper records 4185 of visitors entering the Promenade’s working zones, but it would be too onerous to ask the company to manually go back through those extensive records to identify the information requested. Site visits, where it is not required to enter the working zones, are not recorded and these probably form the vast majority of visits. Throughout the period since January 2020, with some exceptions, four-weekly site progress 4190 meetings of 2 to 2.5 hours in duration have been held, four persons have been in attendance in person to 3rd March 2020, and then either in person or virtually dependent upon the actual COVID-19 restrictions as follows:  Associate Director, Responsible for Horse Tram Track design – Virtually  Engineer, Design Engineer, Horse Tram Track design – Virtually 4195  Alistair Burroughs Director, Scheme Project Manager (Director) – Virtually  Mr Davies, Associate Director – in person.

Throughout this period Mr Davies has also attended:  Regular site overview visits to validate statements on Contractor progress;  Ad hoc site visits; 4200  Co-ordination of meetings to solve service distribution/clash issues; and ______2173 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

 Attendance as requested in respect of the Horse Tram Track. There are many other meetings, discussions, telephone calls and interactions that take place on a daily basis.

58. Burroughs Stewart project management team – Role in delay to southern tram track section

The Hon. Member for Douglas East (Mrs Barber) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What involvement the Burroughs Stewart project management team has had with the decision to delay the laying of the southern tram track section; and what advice they provided?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): In April 2020, at the request of the previous 4205 Infrastructure Minister, the Project Team was asked to identify a way of finishing the main Promenade construction contract sooner. The Project Team, which is led by Burroughs Stewart Associates (BSA), worked with Auldyn to identify a proposal. This included the removal of the Southern section of the tram track. BSA also provided technical advice on how the track could be terminated near Broadway. 4210 The previous Infrastructure Minister took the decision to de-scope the works following discussions with the local Members of the House of Keys, the Department for Enterprise and local businesses.

59. Planning application 20/01538/B – Installing telecoms equipment in lampposts

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

Pursuant to his Answer in February Tynwald, whether the telecommunications equipment which is proposed in planning application 20/01538/B could be installed on Douglas Borough Council lampposts; and, if not, why not?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The responsibility for street lighting lies with the local authorities across the Island. Under section 254 of the Local Government Consolidation Act 4215 1916, Commissioners may enter into a contract for the supply of lighting and for the repair of such equipment. There is no enabling legislation specifically dealing with the ability for local authorities to enter into agreements for telecommunications equipment to be attached to lampposts. However, the Department is aware that Douglas Borough Council has, in the past, negotiated with local 4220 telecoms providers and allowed 4G (not 5G) repeaters on its lighting columns, so there is some precedent for such an approach. In response to a previous question on this matter, the Department consulted with local authorities regarding the issues relating to the installation of telecommunications equipment on lampposts. In response to this, Douglas Borough Council officers explained that there are a 4225 number of practical and operational issues in relation to ownership of the equipment installed on the columns and whether that limits the lighting function or repair of the lamps/columns. For example it was explained that there are some transmitters that need the entire column to be switched off when they are repaired which has implications to maintenance. There are also issues

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around power usage in relation to the newer 5G transmitters where the existing electrical supply 4230 would need to be upgraded to meet these requirements. Douglas Borough Council officers also explained that lighting columns are designed for lighting and not for hosting transmitters for mobile communication. Drilling holes in them to accommodate third-party equipment could potentially shorten the column design life. There are also issues of allowing cabling from third properties into the column and even the possible need 4235 for separate metering and siting of cabinets. Some of these issues may be overcome in time as lighting manufacturers are currently designing columns to cope with 5G equipment but these are not as yet available. Whilst it is clear that there are a number of considerations that need to be taken into account it would appear that these are matters for the Local Authorities and the Mobile Communications 4240 companies to determine going forward.

60. Road transport licensing costs – Fees for public passenger and goods vehicles; DoI policies

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

At what levels fees have been applied for public passenger vehicles and goods vehicles since the Road Transport Licensing Committee was established; and what his policy is on the application of the user pays principle and public revenue financing in respect of road transport licensing costs?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): When the Road Transport Licensing Committee (‘RTLC’) was established in 2002 the Road Transport (Fees) Order 2002 was approved by Tynwald at the July sitting. This Order detailed the fees that the RTLC was permitted to charge to enforce the provisions of the Road Transport Act 2001. 4245 These fees were increased in July 2012 with the Road Transport (Public Passenger Vehicles) (Fees) Order 2012 and again in February 2017 with the Road Transport (Fees) Order 2017. With both of these subsequent Fee Orders the new fees broadly reflected the rate of inflation since the previous fee order. In respect of the fees relating to road transport licencing costs the established departmental 4250 policy is that such fees should be set at a level which covers the administrative burden of implementation and that the costs should be met by users of the service. The increases in fees are part of a process designed to gradually move the service provided to be cost neutral.

61. Road Transport Licensing Committee – Arrangements in place with DoI, DEFA and Treasury

The Hon. Member for Douglas Central (Mr Thomas) to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What agreements, memorandums and other arrangements the Road Transport Licensing Committee has in place with: (a) his Department; (b) the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture; and (c) Treasury?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): The Department of Infrastructure has a framework agreement in place with the Road Transport Licensing Committee. This details how the

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4255 Department is to work with the Committee in terms of making regulations regarding the proceedings of the Committee. This agreement was put in place in 2011. The RTLC also has a memorandum of understanding with the Department of Environment, Food and Agriculture which was put in place in July 2016. This MOU sets out the relationship between the RTLC and DEFA in terms of administrative support and general working arrangements 4260 of the Committee. There is no agreement, memorandum or other arrangement in place between the RTLC and Treasury.

62. Bus timetable changes – Engagement with local communities; publicising

The Hon. Member of the Council, Mrs Lord-Brennan, to ask the Minister for Infrastructure:

What engagement Bus Vannin carries out with local communities before changing bus timetables, with specific reference to meeting the needs of (a) older people and (b) students with after-school activities; and what Bus Vannin’s policy is on clear publication of timetable changes at bus stops?

The Minister for Infrastructure (Mr Baker): Bus Vannin undertakes an annual review of the use of its services before the publication of the timetable. Comments are received throughout the 4265 year and these are reviewed. The data on usage is reviewed and there has to be a balance of the service provision with the budget available. This includes any changes in travel habits by either older people or students. The review of student use is undertaken each September in consultation with the Department of Education Sport and Culture and the schools, to make sure we align with changes in catchment areas and pupil numbers. This includes provision of after-school activities. 4270 Detailed proposals are approved by the Department before applications are made to the Road Transport Licensing Committee. The statutory role of consultation is with the RTLC. The bus network review is consulted with more formality, every five years, when all Commissioners are written to. This is due to take place again in 2022. Ad hoc meetings with various 4275 Commissioners and community groups take place throughout each year. When the new timetable is introduced, all bus stops with timetable cases are updated. This normally takes about a week to complete, commencing on the Friday before the change.

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Order of the Day

3. Economic Recovery Programme – Statement by the Treasury Minister

The President: So with that discipline in mind, we have gone all the way up to Item 3 on the Order Paper. It is a Statement from the Treasury Minister: Economic Recovery Programme. 4280 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, 10 months ago I announced to this Hon. Court the launch of a £100 million economic recovery fund, and today I honour a commitment to update the Court as to progress. I made a commitment last year that the fund would be used to invest in our people by 4285 expanding the opportunities for developing core skills, invest in our Island by accelerating investment programmes, invest in our economy by seeking and developing opportunities for our local businesses to grow and develop, and to invest in our future by exploring ideas and focusing on the delivery of major initiatives. These commitments were made against a backdrop of extraordinary change, upheaval and economic uncertainty caused by the pandemic, and during 4290 last July’s Budget Update, I announced the formation of a collaborative cross-Government Economic Recovery Group to drive the allocation of the Fund through a financial stimulus programme. Comprising of political Members from Treasury, Enterprise and Cabinet Office, the Economic Recovery Group meets once a month or more often if required and reports directly to the Council 4295 of Ministers. It works collaboratively with the private sector via the Department for Enterprise as executive agencies to respond swiftly to challenges, or as often as required or as they present themselves. Its specific role is to protect jobs, stabilise our economy and invest in our future. Work is undertaken in an agile and effective way across six key workstreams with progress being published online via an economic dashboard to ensure complete transparency. 4300 I will now provide Members with an update on each workstream and its achievements to date. Our businesses focus is on short-term support, ensuring an immediate response in the form of financial schemes as they are needed. Protection continues to be provided for a significant number of the Island’s jobs, businesses and industries. Recovery assistance will remain in place during the transitional phase, and this will be removed where sectors are able to operate on a fair 4305 and equitable basis without COVID restriction. The full cost of the Salary Support Scheme is projected to be £73 million, providing funding to support more than 11,000 jobs across three lockdown periods and throughout the pandemic for the travel and tourism sector. Over 2,500 individuals have received £11.5 million through the Manx Earnings Replacement Allowance and the Coronavirus Business Support Scheme has 4310 provided £22.5 million to date to more than 2,500 businesses. An injection of £17.5 million of additional support has been given to specific sectors, including the travel and tourism, hospitality and fisheries industries, which have remained significantly affected throughout the past 18 months. In addition, businesses have been able to receive much-needed cash flow support via the Isle 4315 of Man Disruption Loan Guarantee arrangement and working capital loan arrangement. Overall, the direct cost of the support schemes provided or committed to date is currently estimated to be in the region of £130 million. Our People is a workstream that seeks to create up to 1,000 training education and work placement opportunities over the medium term. Five hundred and seventeen people so far have been enrolled on a range of full and part-time courses at UCM and 4320 nine postgraduate students have joined the UCM’s learning company, which was established in November 2020. The Economic Recovery Group paved the way for an additional 17 students to take a university place by reducing the UCAS points required to attract funding.

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An internship programme was launched last year and is running again this year. In 2020 it led to 149 students being matched with host organisations, providing meaningful work experience 4325 and in many cases, leading to permanent employment. I welcome the further work being undertaken by the Department for Enterprise to create opportunities for graduates with the launch of the Graduate Role Incentive. The Graduate Role Incentive offers local businesses 20% of the first year’s salary up to £6,000 and an employer National Insurance rebate for each graduate hired through supporting roles to encourage the provision of graduate-level opportunities 4330 available for those returning to the Isle of Man. For the long-term unemployed, the Manx Restart Scheme has created 120 new roles so far and 91 people now have jobs who would have otherwise been categorised as long-term unemployed. (A Member: Hear, hear.) Our Island looks to the medium-term and its objective is to invest and speed up initiatives that help transform our Island and support construction activity. Since it has been established: changes 4335 have been made to the Town and Village Regeneration Scheme to increase funding for local authorities and businesses looking to regenerate their business premises; businesses have been granted greater access to funds, including the £1.5 million in Accessibility and Business Improvement Grants; £250,000 has been approved for the Planning Division to accelerate planning applications and undertake a project to allow for electronic planning appeals; half a 4340 million pounds has been committed to accelerate projects for Manx National Heritage. And the construction sector has reported positive feedback, providing a strong indication that the work achieved so far is having its intended impact. Encouraging local spend, driving footfall and raising awareness of our businesses in our towns and villages is the focus of our domestic economy. It has delivered a range of Island-wide events 4345 to coincide with the super Manx bank holiday in August 2020. In addition, the Domestic Event Fund has provided half a million pounds to support new local events and the imminent launch of a ‘Love IOM’ card, which will lead to opportunities for targeted investments and incentives for consumers. Training and workshops have been provided to help stimulate activity in innovation and looking 4350 to the longer term. Our future workstream has £1.4 million locked in to accelerate the delivery of the National Broadband Plan from five years to four years. An additional £420,000 is available to boost the Locate Isle of Man Programme and encourage workers and their families to move here. More than half a million pounds has been committed to assist the development of the medicinal cannabis sector and the Manx Development Corporation is now in the final stages of personnel 4355 recruitment after receiving £120,000. Identifying growth opportunities and planning for the future of the Isle of Man over the next five to 10 years is a vital area and is the focus of our economic strategy workstream. Following a competitive tender process, KPMG were appointed last month to assist us with the development of this strategy, which is so vital for securing future economic success for this Island. This 4360 important project will analyse our current economy and consider models for policy change while assessing the Island’s strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats within a global context. Work on this strategy has commenced, which includes reaching out to many stakeholders. Modelling the Island’s economy in this way will be of huge benefit, helping Government formulate policies that contribute to a safe, green, digital future and contribute, I hope, to sustainable 4365 economic growth. As I have already mentioned, the July 2020 Budget Update committed £100 million in the Economic Recovery Fund, but, as I have said subsequently, we would not expend this full amount unless it is necessary, and indeed, not needing to potentially would be a measure of success of the economy. So to date, I can report to you that we have committed £15.6 million from this fund 4370 and expended £2.6 million to date. A lot of work has taken place and there is still a lot to achieve. I have warned against complacency in the past, and I must do so again today. Whilst the Economic Recovery Group is working to underpin a path out of the pandemic, our communities and businesses have continued to require support whilst our healthcare services remained under threat. ______2178 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

4375 A long spell of broken freedom last year was punctuated in early 2021 with two circuit break lockdowns, which have had a chastening effect on us all. Mr President, there is no doubt that the COVID pandemic has hit the public purse, and whilst the final position is yet to be determined, I estimate at present the overall cost of Government support and lost revenues will be between £200 and £250 million since March 2020. This is still subject to finalisation and I, of course, will 4380 report to Tynwald with a fuller update at an appropriate time. There is no doubt, of course, that the pandemic has taken its toll on some sectors of our economy and that businesses across our domestic economy are still facing considerable challenges. Our job is far from finished; in fact, it has only just begun. But here is the rub; the taxpayer support to the economy has never been about protecting wealthy businesses or mates 4385 in the Chamber, as some would put it. It has been about protecting jobs and incomes and families, and about providing a recoverable platform for the future. It has been about protecting families and individuals who have found themselves without work and income. It has been about protecting vital industries and traditions that contribute to the diversity and heritage of this Island nation. It has been about protecting fishermen, manufacturing, tourism and 4390 the domestic economy, and that is why we should take some confidence, Mr President, from the latest labour market report, compiled and published by the Economic Affairs team at the Cabinet Office, showing the number of people registered unemployed was 751 in April 2021, a reduction of 187 compared with the previous month, and that the number of registered unemployed decreased by 596 compared with April 2020 and indeed that the unemployment rate for April 4395 2021 stood at 1.8% compared with the 2.2% in March. Furthermore, Mr President, Government reserves have remained strong, despite being used to cushion the impact and the effects of the pandemic. The latest market valuation of our reserves show the overall invested value to be £1.6 billion and included in that figure is a National Insurance account currently standing at £995 million, £5 million short of the £1 billion figure, and I sincerely 4400 hope that the National Insurance Fund will exceed £1 billion during the lifetime of this administration. Mr President, it is likely global economic recovery is on its way, a recovery that will most likely bring challenge and opportunity in equal measure and one, I doubt, that would not be without complications. Our Economic Support Programme has secured a platform for the future; of that I 4405 have no doubt, but we shall not stop work. I expect to speak to Tynwald again in the very near future about preparing our finances for the future. But in the meantime, I must emphasise that the Economic Recovery Group will continue its commitment to the Island’s people, its businesses and the next generation and will also ensure a plan is in place to maintain momentum through the foreseeable future through the election in order to protect jobs, stabilise our economy and 4410 invest in our future. (Members: Hear, hear.) Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Thank you. Mr Speaker. 4415 The Speaker: Thank you. If I could just pose three questions to the Minister. Firstly, £200 million to £250 million is a pretty broad range of estimate – £50 million here, £50 million there. Perhaps he could just commit to coming back with some more clarity in a slightly tighter range on that in future. 4420 In terms of the statements he made regarding some of the initiatives that have been announced and have been going on throughout the lockdowns, would the Minister agree to circulate the cost per job created and the payback period for the taxpayer on an initiative by initiative basis? This would no doubt have formed the fundamental basis for their business cases for these. And finally, when can we expect to see the first plants in the ground regarding the 4425 cannabis industry?

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The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Yes, Mr President. 4430 Yes, I deliberately did give a fairly broad range of figures, because, obviously it is predominantly the impact on revenue that can often be the telling factor in terms of the uncertainty that the lockdowns are causing. But I did make that commitment during that speech to try to provide further clarity, and I will do so and try to do that before the end of the administration, if at all possible. 4435 In terms of cost per job created and payback, I am happy and content to try and provide further analysis in that respect, and indeed, I will seek to feed back to the Speaker on that. And in terms of cannabis, clearly, I am not aware of specifically when that would happen. Clearly that process has been managed predominantly through the Department for Enterprise. But again, Mr President, I am happy to provide the Speaker with some further information and try 4440 to seek a further update as to where matters exactly stand. I know there has been interest in it since the legislation was passed, and I know that there are some discussions afoot, but I will seek a further update.

4. Regulatory Review – Statement by the Minister for Policy and Reform

The President: We move on to Item 4, Regulatory Review, and the Minister for Policy and Reform to make a Statement. 4445 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. One of the resounding themes we have heard from this Hon. Court over recent months is we need to reconsider how regulations are conducted for certain functions. We have heard the themes of appropriate independence and the need for reform resonate in this and other 4450 Chambers clearly. This is not a new topic. As I am sure Hon. Members are aware, my predecessor, the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, will no doubt reference that this was first mooted in the Modernising Ministerial Government report in 2014. I would like to take this opportunity to thank him for initiating the work during his previous period as Minister for Policy and Reform. Indeed, the Programme for Government, and Tynwald agreed back in 2017, has for the last few years 4455 included an action that stated that the Cabinet Office will:

Produce a report on our regulatory framework which explores options for better regulation

Mr President, I am pleased to say that the Council of Ministers has now received a report on our regulatory framework. This report makes a number of conclusions and recommendations about how regulation could be conducted, organised and reformed in the Isle of Man. The report sets out a plan for politically independent regulation and the principles that underpin independent 4460 regulation under the Government’s control policy. Most significant, the report recommends the creation of a new Statutory Board – the Isle of Man Regulatory Authority – which will have no political membership. The first phase of the new regulatory authority is proposed by the report to incorporate the functions of the Road Transport Licensing Committee, Office of Fair Trading, Health and Safety at 4465 Work Inspectorate, Environmental Health and Planning and Building Control. These changes would be significant and propose a seismic shift in how we implement our regulation. I believe they could provide regulated entities with further assurance that case specific political involvement can be avoided, to help ensure consistent application of the legislation and

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regulatory policy. However, the proposal would also ensure that Government will continue to be 4470 responsible for the establishment of those policies and regulation in agreement with this Court. However, like many matters, there is a balance to be achieved in the matter between perfection and taking account of our limited critical mass in our relatively small, though beautifully formed democracy. Therefore, rather than seek to bulldoze on with this course of action, the Council of Ministers has agreed that we want to hear from stakeholders, the public, businesses 4475 and third sectors and Tynwald Members regarding these proposals. We want to seek feedback to see if the report’s proposal accords with the visions and aspirations for regulations on the Isle of Man. As a result, we are launching a public consultation today to obtain people’s views on the report and its proposals and I would encourage Hon. Members to engage positively with the 4480 consultation. The results of the consultation will be evaluated over the summer so that they are available for the next Council of Ministers to make a decision on whether to adopt and implement the report’s proposals or evolve the proposals in light of the feedback received. Thank you, Mr President.

4485 The President: Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I welcome the Statement today from the Minister for Policy and Reform, and I heard some key points there. There was a Council of Ministers’ report. When will the report be published, is my 4490 first question; and the public consultation, will that be on the report, or will that be on the Council of Ministers’ proposals? I am interested just to hear a bit more about how this is going to work and how it will perhaps interface with the other regulatory bodies we have in the Isle of Man, recognising that we are small and beautifully formed. Thank you. 4495 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you. I had hoped that it would actually be on the Order Paper, but it is today. So the report will be 4500 issued today, and it will be consultations on the actual proposals as part of the report. So these are firm proposals that we will go forward with and I hope we will be taking forward.

The President: Mr Speaker.

4505 The Speaker: Thank you. Can the Minister then tell us the difference between what the report is that is on the Order Paper and the one that the Minister is referring to? There has been one that was published with the Order Paper (The Minister: Oh, good.) that talks about this and it talks about the Government’s proposals on this. But it is a set of proposals, not a set of options, because there 4510 are many ways of doing this. The Government’s clearly down on one method and there is quite a long consultation process. I would have thought that it would have been better for the Government to try and seek different views on this, rather than say, ‘This is the way we’re going to do it, unless you prove otherwise’, which seems to be the basis of the consultation. Because I have filled in the consultation response, or I had a look at it, and it seems very narrow and it is 4515 only very short. It is only about three or four questions, if I remember rightly.

The Minister: You are right, in the – Sorry, to the first question, you are correct; it is on the Order Paper, so yes it is. But what we wanted to do is actually we spent a lot of time working on these proposals, there are many different views, in some ways we could go round and round in 4520 many different ways. We believe that actually this Isle of Man Regulatory Authority is a good way ______2181 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

forward, the main point being that it is politically independent, that we remove that political interference, and really we are seeking views on that. I think it is a real credible way forward that I hope can be taken as soon as, immediately this new House starts. (The Speaker: December?) No, the new administration, if not before. 4525 The President: Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President, and I welcome publication of a document. Can the Minister confirm that when he used the word ‘now’ in terms of the document that is 4530 now published, what he means is that a document was first considered by the Council of Ministers’ subcommittee in 2018, and it was also considered by the full Council of Ministers in December 2019? So we mean one of several documents that is along the way. I have got a couple more questions, if that is okay, Mr President? The second question then is that one of the differences seems to be that dropped from an 4535 earlier draft is the very clear description in the earlier drafts that there are different types of regulation with different objectives and what I notice from the current proposal for an Isle of Man regulatory authority, although it is very clear that it is taking away politicians, which is a good thing, I think it loses something by dropping the idea that there are separate objectives and separate types of regulation. So for instance, if we had an Isle of Man Regulatory Authority, which 4540 included both the RTLC and the Office of Fair Trading, how could people take action against the Office of Fair Trading in respect of anti-competitive practices? So can the Minister comment on that? Thirdly, building on the point that Mr Speaker has raised, the consultation document seems to have been written by a different hand from the report that is on our Paper. They seem to have a 4545 different emphasis. So I hope that more time could be taken with the consultation document and actually a better consultation. I think, in fact, it is not really a consultation. I think what we need now is engagement on a published document. Would the Minister agree?

The President: Minister. 4550 The Minister: Taking the last point first, that is exactly what we are trying to do. We are trying to get engagement. I think we actually have a common theme and a common belief, and to make the point that actually, this was a development in progress. There were proposals, this comes from that. Some of those proposals did not, for many different reasons … were adapted or 4555 changed or people had different views. This has taken many years to get to this point and now we are seeking engagement which I think hopefully will be a very positive, but necessary step forward.

The President: Thank you. Mrs Lord Brennan. 4560 Mrs Lord-Brennan: Thank you, Mr President. I guess I am just curious as to why this has not come forward with an associated motion, notwithstanding the fact that public consultation, you would understand, would be an important feature, because obviously the report and the consultation is laid before on the Order Paper. It 4565 disconnected from any statement, in a way. There is nothing really that Tynwald can act on or any clear mode of direction. So I think it just feels slightly disjointed, because what I think is the report, which is at the back of the consultation, does in itself seem to have quite a certain direction. So I was wondering why it has not come forward with an associated resolution, if there are any other documents that might go along with this, because certainly all my time in this Court it has 4570 felt like there has already been work going on to do with regulatory separateness, regulatory review, and also caught up with the single legal entity and whatever that is emerged into. So I

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would be interested if there were any other documents or reports related to all of these things, because they are definitely connected. Thank you, Mr President. 4575 The President: Mr Harmer.

The Minister: Thank you. So taking the last point first again, in the sense of the single legal entity, I think that document, 4580 if that has not been published, will shortly be published and that is going to be part of a workshop. So that is part of the piece. The problem is, that was very clear to me in terms of where we got to, a number of stakeholders, key stakeholders, and the public had not been fully engaged in … or had been fully engaged, but had not had the full engagement that we need. What we must not do is rush to our 4585 fences here. This period of engagement, obviously I would have preferred to have been doing this six months ago. I think with everything else we have come to a time-poor period, but what I am absolutely … from my point of view, I would want to seek that this happens as soon as possible and that we are in as good a place as possible having taken on board all of the feedback, and then we can have a positive motion to make this happen. 4590 So I suppose the disappointment that I have is that I am not bringing this six months ago, but the intent is the same; that ultimately it will be a full motion for approval.

5. Isle of Man Post Office – Statement by the Chairman – Item commenced

The President: We turn now to Item 5, Isle of Man Post Office, Chairman to make a Statement.

The Chairman of the Post Office (Ms Edge): Thank you, Mr President, and apologies that there 4595 was no title, but the Statement was missed off the Order Paper and we had to quickly get that rectified. So normally there would be some comment there. Hon. Members –

The President: I am sorry, could you repeat that? I did not catch … 4600 The Chairman: The Statement request was missed off the original Order Paper and that had to be rectified.

The President: It was rectified. 4605 The Chairman Yes!

The President: Yes, it was.

4610 The Chairman: I am saying it has been rectified, but as the Speaker said earlier, that it would have been helpful for it to actually say what … but I am sure if there was a query on the Order Paper somebody would have come to us about that. So thank you, Mr President. So Hon. Members, I am grateful that Mr President has allowed me as Chair of Isle of Man Post Office to provide an update on the Tynwald resolution of December 2020 in the context of the Isle 4615 of Man Post Office’s five-year strategy that commenced in 2017-18.

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In summary, significant progress has been made and strategic actions have been refreshed to continue to deliver on the business mission, vision and key objectives, with the overriding aim of providing services that meet the changing needs of postal customers in the long term as a modern self-funded post office. This is testament to the whole team which makes up Isle of Man Post 4620 Office, and I am proud to be Chairman of this well-run and forward-looking establishment. The postal industry continues to change at pace. Government’s COVID-19 focused on minimising face-to-face interactions, which accelerated the transition to digital, with less reliance on cash and a surge in e-commerce. But we are currently ahead of our original strategic financial forecast to return the business to a sustainable profit, and subject to audit, we expect to report a 4625 profit for our 2021 year end, something which I am very proud of, Mr President, (The Speaker: Hear, hear.) and I think everybody in here should be, (A Member: Hear, hear.) because it has been hard work! Hon. Members, to achieve this return to profit, and as approved in this Hon. Court, Isle of Man Post Office has delivered key strategic changes, including pension reform, reducing the business 4630 liability, whilst improving the affordability of the schemes, not seen elsewhere in the public sector. (Mr Shimmins: Hear, hear.) The defined benefit scheme has been closed to new entrants, in favour of a risk-sharing alternative, combining a defined benefit lump sum and defined contribution scheme. The changes were successfully implemented in January 2020, together with increased member and employee contributions to the defined benefit scheme. These changes and 4635 a £1.1 million cash injection in 2021 to offset the deficit returned the defined benefit pension position to a fully funded state. Letters and parcels: we successfully transitioned to a five-day week letter delivery in October 2019, retaining parcel and premium service delivery six days a week, responding to the changing demand from customers in respect of declining letters and growth in packet and parcel items, 4640 trends which were accelerated by COVID-19. With regard to the network of sub-post offices, the board were pleased to gain approval from this Hon. Court in October 2019 for our demand-driven retail modernisation strategy to reflect the changing demands of end users, as well as commercial customer requirements provided through the counter network. Since the beginning of the strategy, five sub-postmasters have 4645 chosen to terminate their contract. In each case, the principles of the Tynwald-approved strategy and access to services have been upheld, with alternate service provision provided where appropriate and viable. Consolidation has resulted in customers using alternative offices, to the benefit of the remaining network. Last December, the motion moved by Mr Speaker, and approved by Hon. Members, stated:

The Post Office should be required to sustain all sub post office branches currently open until the Chief Minister’s Community Committee reports on community hubs and [the] provision of government services, available banking and cash facilities in communities and the report is considered by Tynwald [in] July 2021.

4650 Since December, Isle of Man Post Office has had reason to apply the resolution in one area –Port St Mary – where the independent provider of postal services has given notice on his contract, with the contract due to cease from 31st January 2021. Prior to the Tynwald resolution, Isle of Man Post Office had consulted with key stakeholders that represent service users to discuss future postal services in the village, and had proposed, as part of the consultation, to seek a new partner 4655 in Port St Mary for parcel collection and to sell postage stamps, reflecting the changing nature of Isle of Man Post Office’s products and services. However, in light of the resolution in January Isle of Man Post Office sought, and was pleased to obtain, a formal direction from the Council of Ministers to carry out the will of Tynwald expressed in this motion and to gain agreement from the incumbent sub-postmaster to continue 4660 providing the existing service for a short fixed period. I am sure it will come as no surprise that the pandemic has accelerated the decline in counter transactions, down 13% overall in the last year, as customers transition to diverse, convenient alternatives to face-to-face services, notably Treasury welfare cash payments that reduced by ______2184 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

approximately 30% during the pandemic, and 18% to 12% of the overall welfare payments. These 4665 changes were part of a range of strategic actions to modernise and improve the business, including strategic cost efficiencies to reduce operating costs through the delivery. Duty revisions, implementing green initiatives, including trialling the first electric vans in Government. Merging our two production teams to benefit from economies of scale. Adapting international postal services in response to Brexit and winning new delivery work and ancillary 4670 print and production work in a difficult trading environment, as key customers continue to transition to digital communications. Furthermore, we introduced a new business-wide grade and pay scale to ensure consistent evaluation and incentivise performance through reward. Our highly respected Stamps and Coins Division has continued to hold its own by remaining profitable, despite a decline in the regular collector base and when many other postal 4675 administrations across the world have been unable to achieve this and have closed theirs down. Activity to mitigate the decline by improving collectability and desirability through innovative designs has been key. The Queen’s 95th birthday was successfully developed in collaboration with our other Crown Dependencies and British Overseas Territories, allowing knowledge, experience and costs to be shared. In a contracting marketplace, Isle of Man Post Office expects 4680 collaborations to increase in order to retain profitability. To the detriment of our collector base and revenue, the outsourcing of the Isle of Man coin programme to Tower Mint and marketing to Westminster Collection, both off-Island companies, has led to issues accessing the coin programme and purchasing coins for resale. Looking forward, competition for first and last mile parcel delivery remains fierce. Amazon is 4685 increasingly dominant, able to shift delivery partners at will, while growing their own logistics business into the second largest behind Royal Mail, our main trading partner. Royal Mail are seeking to ensure they retain their market position while transforming their business. While our pricing strategies have been effective to date, agreeing a pricing strategy with Royal Mail that is competitive and to our mutual financial benefit remains very challenging. 4690 The board are disappointed that the DfE, Isle of Man Post Office’s sponsoring Department, has not yet acted on the Chief Minister’s action to review the increasing threat of the gig economy to the Island’s overall economy, these businesses’ profits remaining off-Island, employment standards, service quality and fair competition. Operationally, we are focused on adapting to the accelerated change in demand for our postal 4695 delivery services, of significantly fewer letters and more parcels, with further investment in technology, duty revisions, increasing the size of vans in the fleet to accommodate larger items and tracking to improve productivity and customer experience. In terms of agency services provided through independent sub-post offices, the board looks forward to the recommendations from the Chief Minister’s Community and Public Engagement 4700 Committee, as well as the Cabinet Office’s New Public Service strategy, Treasury’s review of welfare cash payment and the Department of Infrastructure’s driving and vehicle licence digitisation plans and Government’s Digital Inclusion Strategy to inform the future demand for agency counter services on a commercial footing. We welcome any opportunities to complement the outcomes of these strategies. 4705 In light of recent changes in the Island’s banking industry, there has been some political feeling that Isle of Man Post Office should provide banking services. The board welcomes the opportunity to feed into the independent report into access to cash that is being commissioned by the Department for Enterprise to fully explore community needs, service options available, as well as potential future services, service alternatives and the associated costs. 4710 Subject to the outcome of these Government-led activities, as envisaged by the Retail Network Modernisation Strategy, Isle of Man Post Office believes that demand for counter-based agency services provided through the network of sub-post offices is likely to continue to decline or be withdrawn by agency partners as it becomes less viable for independent retailers acting as sub- postmasters and Isle of Man Post Office to continue to operate services in the current format. 4715 Despite these trends, the Post Office board is committed to continuing to provide postal services ______2185 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

within the community, with a focus on more convenient, accessible and cost-effective services in the community for residents and businesses to complete their postal business. With local pick-up and drop-off locations, to post and collect postal items, augmented by a 24/7 online service to allow residential customers to self-administer their own postage and on behalf of others, leaving 4720 items at one of the drop-off sites or arranging a collection from their home. Isle of Man Post Office takes the health and safety of its people very seriously, and this has never been more so in the light of the pandemic. Our health and wellbeing programme continues to develop with the creation of an employee forum, as we seek to encourage good health and reduce absence by expanding access to services, training and advice, offering the flu jab and with 4725 the current most common reasons for absence, musculoskeletal and mental health is the current programme’s focus. It was particularly pleasing to see the results of the Isle of Man Government’s first pulse survey of the year, to which 55.5% of Isle of Man Post Office’s workforce responded, compared to the Government’s 30%. The business is keen to evolve the culture within the business and these 4730 results are helpful in enabling us to make continuous improvements and increase staff engagement. Isle of Man Post Office is also very aware of its corporate responsibility when it comes to respecting the environment and has therefore taken the opportunity to commission a carbon audit to understand the business’s current carbon footprint and opportunities to continually drive 4735 down in line with the climate change targets and funding parameters, further demonstrating its commitment to being a greener organisation. Hon. Members, this has just been a snapshot of Isle of Man Post Office’s strategic progress and plans as it continues on its transformational journey. The Isle of Man Post Office remains a special brand, and it will continue to adapt and modernise in order to remain relevant and financially 4740 viable in an increasingly digital world. The last 12 months have been unprecedented and challenging for us all in so many ways. But as a business, Isle of Man Post Office has continued to provide a normal aspect of day-to-day life during a time when the world has never looked or felt so different. Sustaining services while ensuring the highest safeguards to protect staff and customers has 4745 only been possible because of the entire team that makes up Isle of Man Post Office. Each and every employee has played a part in this achievement, all of whom have had to flex and adapt their ways of working to reflect the demands presented by the pandemic while also achieving significant progress on our strategy. I thank each and every one of them. I also thank the board and executive for navigating the path to modernisation thus far and to the respective unions for 4750 their co-operation to make the business fit for purpose as we seek sustainability, both now and in the future, while ensuring the trusted and respected brand of Isle of Man Post Office is never compromised. Thank you, Mr President.

4755 The President: Hon. Members, could I have an indication of who may wish to ask a question? In that case, we will take a break now and return at five minutes to six.

The Court adjourned at 5.25 p.m. and resumed its sitting at 5.56 p.m.

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Personal statement by Mr Thomas – Point of clarification

The President: Hon. Members, before we carry on, I will allow the Hon. Member for Douglas Central, Mr Thomas, to make a short personal statement. 4760 Mr Thomas: Thanks very much, Mr President. I really appreciate the chance to make a very brief personal statement, merely that some remarks I made about the extent to which evidence had been provided could be misinterpreted. In other words, the process of providing evidence to the Communities Committee and into the 4765 specification of the terms of reference for the investigation of access to cash project has started. We have been very open, it is minuted that we have been very open and all the information that we have available will be made available on request, or even at one point we could dump it all, because basically there are decades of reports about this very topic. Thank you, Mr President. 4770 The President: Thank you, sir.

5. Isle of Man Post Office – Statement by the Chairman – Item concluded

The President: Now, questions on the Statement to the Chairman of the Post Office. First of all, Hon. Member for Onchan, Mr Callister.

4775 Mr Callister: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Chairman of the Post Office for that very positive Statement this afternoon on behalf of the Post Office. Can I just ask the Chairman when the financial statements for March 2021 will be published? Thank you, Mr President. 4780 The President: Thank you. Chairman to reply.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. 4785 Obviously, in line with what is agreed with Tynwald, our accounts are issued to Tynwald Court in October, following them being approved by the auditors. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins. No? Sorry, my mistake. 4790 Mrs Christian.

Mrs Christian: Thank you, Mr President. Firstly, I would like to congratulate the Chairman and all the staff of the Post Office for the astounding achievement of profit on the horizon. Having met with all the staff at head office when 4795 I first became a Member, I was very impressed with the professionalism wrapped around with what felt a family orientated business. I have a few questions for the Chairman, and I hope that if she is not able to answer today, that she will be able to provide some answer to the Members of this Court.

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My first question is with profits being the exciting part to the Chairman’s speech, could she 4800 advise if the sub-post offices that are subcontracted to provide services on behalf of the Isle of Man Post Office are also making a profit? Secondly, what investment is being made through GTS to integrate sub-post office services into sub-postmasters’ own till systems, negating the need for these operators to have separate tills and counter positions? 4805 Thirdly, how committed are Isle of Man Post Office to accessibility and inclusivity of accessing its services, particularly for the elderly, vulnerable and disabled customers who often require a physical outlet close to where they live? Thank you, Mr President.

4810 The President: Thank you. Chairman.

The Chairman: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member. Obviously she is the Member for where our headquarters are, so I thank her for asking questions today. 4815 Obviously we cannot comment on the profits for private individual businesses, which is what all the sub-post offices are. I certainly cannot do that. With regard to the retail losses, it has been over the £1 million mark, and that will be shown again in this year’s accounts. With regard to GTS and obviously the two till systems operating, we are always keen to join up, but certainly it has always been, up until now, that they had to be separate systems because 4820 there are so many Government facilities on there to make payments to. With regard to inclusivity, it is definitely one of our key themes for any of our branches or any access points to make sure that everybody can access services that they require from Isle of Man Post Office. Thank you, Mr President. 4825 The President: Thank you.

6. Tynwald Auditor General – Selection Committee – Report noted and recommendation approved

The Chairman of the Tynwald Auditor General Selection Committee (Mr Speaker) to move:

That Tynwald notes the Report of the Selection Committee for the Tynwald Auditor General [PP No 2021/0115]; and, pursuant to Paragraph 4 of Schedule 1 of the Tynwald Auditor General Act 2011, agrees the recommendation in the Report.

The President: We move now then to Item 6, Tynwald Auditor General. Motion in the name of Mr Speaker, to move.

4830 The Speaker: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. The statutory committee tasked with the duty of recommending for appointment an Auditor General must also put before Tynwald the terms and conditions for the appointment. The basic terms and conditions are quite short. They appear as the recommendation in the Report laid before Tynwald. Namely, that the following will be the terms and conditions of the Tynwald 4835 Auditor General: appointment for a term of five years, with eligibility for reappointment; salary analogue to the Civil Service grade currently £88,000 to £110,478; other terms and conditions, including pension rights, will be analogous to those of a public servant, unless otherwise agreed. ______2188 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The term of the contract is set at five years, as being a reflection of the assumption on which Tynwald agreed this appointment. It allows the incumbent to show that the office will indeed 4840 create savings and efficiencies that will justify the cost of the post, and I hope it will do much more than this. The salary is set at a rate that is similar to posts in the public sector of similar importance. The other terms and conditions are covered by normal public service terms and conditions. The Committee received advice from other small jurisdictions in setting these terms and conditions and broadly they reflect the approach taken elsewhere, in places such as Jersey and 4845 Northern Ireland. I emphasise that this is a first-time appointment to this post. On the assumption that the post is successful in demonstrating its value to the Island, one of the expectations of Tynwald is that the incumbent will provide advice on how the post should be organised in the future and what amendments should be made to the governing Act. Once Tynwald has agreed terms and conditions, the next step will be to advertise the post. I 4850 expect the closing date for applications will be 14th June. Interviews will take place shortly thereafter with the Selection Committee deciding on an appointee to recommend to Tynwald as soon as possible. The overall aim is to allow Tynwald to agree the appointment in the July sitting. Mr President, I beg to move.

4855 The President: Chief Minister, Mr Quayle.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

4860 The President: I put the motion at Item 6. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

7. Charities Act 1986 – Charities Act 1986 (Specified Sums) Order 2021 approved

Her Majesty’s Attorney General to move:

That the Charities Act 1986 (Specified Sums) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0129] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 7, Charities Act. I call on Her Majesty’s Attorney General to move.

The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. 4865 The Charities Act 1986 (Specified Sums) Order 2021 is made under the Charities Act 1986. The provisions of the Charities Act 1986 apply in the following circumstances: firstly, where a charity is subject to a provision either expressly or in its governing instrument or by operation of charity law that it may spend only its income and not its capital for the purpose of achieving its charitable objectives; and, secondly, where a charity wishes to cease its activities but there is no provision in 4870 its governing instrument or under charity law which enables it to transfer its capital to another charity with similar objects. In those circumstances, the 1986 Act enables the Attorney General to consent to the trustees of a charity which meets the necessary criteria for passing a resolution to free the capital from restrictions or to transfer the remaining assets to another charity. Trustees are able to seek the 4875 consent of the Attorney General in either circumstance under the 1986 Act if the charity meets the following criteria: firstly, the charity does not hold any land; secondly, the charity’s gross income in the last preceding accounting year does not exceed the specified sum; and, thirdly, in

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the case of a charity wishing to free its capital from restrictions, that its capital does not exceed the specified sum. 4880 Prior to passing the 1986 Act, the only mechanism open to a charity wishing to take either step was to make an application under the Charities Act 1962 to the High Court for consent. The Attorney General is required to be a party to such an application. It was in recognition of the financial burden that the requirement to seek the consent of the Court imposed on charities that the 1986 Act was passed and the sum specified in it reflected the 4885 amount of income and of capital below which it was considered reasonable for a charity to have an alternative method of obtaining the consent available to it. Because any questions concerning the application of a charity’s property must be determined in accordance with the principles of charity law, the approach was taken when considering whether to give the requested consent is the same whether the application is to the High Court 4890 under the 1962 Act or to the Attorney General under the 1986 Act. At the time that the 1986 Act came into force for a charity wishing to free its capital from restrictions, the specified gross income was £500 and the specified capital sum was £5,000; and for a charity wishing to transfer its capital the specified gross income was £1,000. To reflect rising costs and reducing interest rates the specified sums were increased in 1991, 1998 and 2007, 4895 meaning that the sums currently specified are a gross income of £5,000 in both cases and capital of £25,000 in the case of a charity wishing to be able to use its capital as well as its income to fund its activities. The 14 years since the specified sums were last increased have seen a significant fall in interest rates, meaning that charities which fund their activities only from the income on their capital are 4900 now in a position where their income is either almost nil or has reduced to the extent that they can no longer provide the benefit which was intended when the charity was originally established. There appears to be little or no prospect of interest rates rising in the short term, or even medium term, to the extent required. This means that charities which would previously have been regarded as well-endowed are now in a position where in order to continue to provide the 4905 anticipated benefit, they need to be able to resort to their capital. Although this will mean the depletion and even exhaustion of their capital, ultimately, the purpose of a charity trustee is to deliver the benefits for which the charity in question was established, not to be the custodian of a capital sum. Further, as with other costs during that period, the costs of obtaining the professional advice 4910 necessary in order to make an application to the High Court have also risen, meaning that even for those charities which have been able to maintain a reasonable income, the cost of obtaining consent from the court is a significant outlay, which may well be unaffordable. Taking into account all of these factors, including the amount of time which has elapsed since the amounts were last reviewed, I consider that it is reasonable to increase the specified sums as 4915 follows: firstly, the maximum gross income in both cases is increased to £10,000; and, secondly, the maximum capital amount in connection with a request for consent to free the charity’s capital from restrictions is £100,000. Should the charity’s capital or gross income exceed those amounts, it is not unreasonable for the charity to be required to make an application to the High Court. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name. 4920 The President: Mr Harmer, Hon. Member.

Mr Harmer: Thank you. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

4925 The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously when I was looking at the Order Paper I had a look to see what I could see for charities online and all of that you can actually see and view at the present time is a register; I am ______2190 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

4930 just wondering if there is any intention that the accounts etc. will be able to be viewed in the future electronically. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: I call on the learned Attorney to reply. 4935 The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. I thank the Hon. Member for her question. There is an online existence of the charity function, which my office maintains now and it might be best if I just simply read the note which is published:

Work is presently underway to make some public information held on the register available for downloading from this page. In the meantime, all public information will be provided by e-mail, on request. If you do not have an e- mail address, arrangements can be made by prior appointment for you to view the information on a computer in the Attorney General’s Chambers. All requests to be sent, or to view … should be made to the Charities Administration by e-mail …

And we give the e-mail address. 4940 If I could add, Mr President, that I am very conscious that the Charities Register should be more available online and that the public ought to have the ability to file their documents which they are required by law to file online, but we do not currently have that facility. Thank you.

4945 The President: Thank you, sir. I put the motion at Item 7. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

8. Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019 – Charities (Exemption) Regulations 2021 approved

Her Majesty’s Attorney General to move:

That the Charities (Exemption) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0130] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 8, Charities Registration and Regulation Act, learned Attorney once more.

4950 The Attorney General: Thank you, Mr President. The Charities (Exemption) Regulations 2020 are made under the Charities Registration and Regulation Act 2019, which provides for the registration and regulation of charities which are active in the Isle of Man. Should an institution take any steps in the Island in which it holds itself out as being a charity, it commits an offence unless it is already registered as a charity, unless it 4955 has applied to be so registered or unless it is exempt from the requirement to be registered as a result of regulations having been made to that effect. At present a small number of religious charities are exempt from registration under the Religious Charities Regulations 1999. The primary purpose of the charities register is to provide both the public and the Attorney General as the regulator with information concerning those charities which are active within the 4960 Island and accordingly registration brings with it the requirement to file annual accounts and reports, and to notify the details of the charity trustees. As Hon. Members may be aware, under its international development policy the Isle of Man Government provides funding for projects carried out overseas by international charities. I am informed by the Cabinet Office that as a condition of such funding, the charities concerned, which 4965 are all foreign charities for the purposes of the 2019 Act – that is, they are established under the

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law of a country or territory outside the Isle of Man – are required to undertake awareness-raising activities within the Island and the project country to promote the funded project and the partnership between the charity and the Isle of Man Government. This requirement is key to meeting the Council of Ministers’ policy objective of raising 4970 awareness of global development issues throughout the Island’s population, but as the charities involved do not have any prior connection with the Island, so they are not registered here, compliance with it has the unintended consequence of bringing them into breach of the 2019 Act. To require a charity to register merely to fulfil a raise awareness obligation on the Island and so as to use the taxpayers’ funds have been applied … is perhaps unnecessarily burdensome. In 4975 addition, it is unlikely that such a charity would be able to demonstrate the necessary substantial and genuine connection which would enable them to register at all. To enable the Council of Ministers’ policy objective to be achieved without the recipient charities being placed in an invidious position, the Charities (Exemption) Regulations 2021 provide that provided the actions which are carried out within the Island by the charity are restricted to 4980 those required by the condition and do not include the raising or expenditure of funds, except for the meeting of the reasonable expenses of the charity in carrying out the required activities, the charities concerned will be able lawfully to carry them out without being registered here as a charity. Of course, if the charity concerned undertook activities in the Island which went beyond these permitted activities, and that is the scope of the exemption, the provisions of the 2019 Act 4985 would apply in the usual way. Mr President, I beg to move the motion standing in my name.

The President: Mr Harmer.

4990 The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: I put to the Court the motion at Item 8. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

9. Elections (Keys and Local Authorities) Act 2020 – Elections (Keys) (Election Expenses) Regulations 2021 approved

The Minister for Policy and Reform to move:

That the Elections (Keys) (Election Expenses) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0152] [MEMO] be approved.

4995 The President: Item 9 now, Elections (Keys and Local Authorities) Act. Minister for Policy and Reform to move, Mr Harmer.

The Minister for Policy and Reform (Mr Harmer): Thank you, Mr President. Setting a limit on election campaign spending supports openness and transparency and helps 5000 to establish a level playing field for all candidates. The Regulations before the Court today seek to increase the maximum amount that candidates or prospective candidates can spend on their bid to be elected to the House of Keys in September. For the avoidance of doubt, the Regulations do not apply to the forthcoming local elections. The proposed increase in spending cap to £2,150, plus 54p per registered elector in the 5005 constituency, represents an uplift in line with CPI since the last General Election in 2016. This is intended to put candidates in this September’s Election on the same footing as in 2016 in real ______2192 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

terms. The maximum amount that can be spent by candidates will be calculated on the number of electors in the relevant constituency registered on the electoral roll on 1st August. Candidates are required to keep a record of their campaign spending, including notional expenditure, and to 5010 submit declarations to confirm that they have not exceeded the permitted amount. Hon. Members, the relevant period that candidates and prospective candidates must log their expenses and donations commences one year before the scheduled date of election, irrespective of the date when they announced their intention to stand. I also wish to point out that candidates are entitled to have one copy of their manifesto posted 5015 to every household in the constituency with payment funded by the Government to the cost of a standard letter. It is only when the cost of posting a manifesto exceeds that of a standard letter or if a candidate wishes to post more than one copy to each household that the additional spending must be met by the candidate and included as an election expense.

5020 A Member: Cheers for that, Minister. (Laughter)

The Minister: Finally, I would like to take the opportunity to highlight the information published on the Government’s website to assist individuals with their election campaign. The documents include the guidance for candidates, the guidance on election funding and a code of 5025 practice in respect of election materials, which provides useful assistance and are all relevant to the issue of campaign expenses. Hon. Members, the Regulations before you today seek to ensure equality and fairness in respect of election campaign spending and with that in mind, I would encourage you to approve them. 5030 Mr President, I beg to move.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Hooper.

Mr Hooper: Thank you, Mr President. 5035 I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Thomas.

Mr Thomas: Thank you, Mr President. 5040 I welcome these Regulations and I also wanted to take this as an opportunity to thank the Crown and Elections team, who worked through very carefully to make it completely clear how political party expenditure, how policy action group expenditure and how local authority election expenditure would be counted in the log that Members would have to be made, so that is on the Hansard record, a very clear statement, and I want to thank the Crown and Elections team and 5045 the lawyers behind that for actually thinking it through very carefully. I also wanted to thank the Crown and Elections team for producing the new guide for highways, which is much simpler than – for posters and for materials around highways – in previous years and I think it might be helpful for the Minister to confirm that Manx Utilities and DoI have made these restrictions on posters and things like that when it is directly on their infrastructure, on their 5050 property. But as is clear from the simple document, in actual fact, you can have bigger posters and bigger signs than that as long as they are in private property, although sometimes obviously – and in fact regularly – that will be visible from the highway. So I think it might be quite helpful for the Minister to clarify that, given some concerns in previous years. 5055 The President: Minister to reply.

The Minister: Thank you, Mr President. ______2193 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

I do agree, and with all the work the Member has been involved in and also the Crown and 5060 Elections team who are doing an excellent job. And yes, I am happy to confirm that clarification, and with all the other guidance that is on the website. So with that, I beg to move.

The President: I put to the Court the Regulations set out at Item 9. Those in favour, say aye; 5065 against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

10. Building Control Act 1991 – Building Control (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 approved

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:

That the Building Control (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0111] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 10, Building Control Act, Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move, Mr Boot.

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. 5070 The Regulations before the Court today set out the fees charged by a building control authority for the passing or rejecting of plans for proposed works and the on-site inspection of those building works further to the requirements of the Building Control Act 1991 and the associated Building Regulations 2014. The Regulations before you increase the building control fees that may be charged to recover the cost of undertaking such work by 2%, with effect from 1st June 2021. 5075 In April 2020, an increase of 2% was planned, but this was put on hold due to the COVID-19 pandemic. The Regulations also provide for a 2% inflationary increase in the fees with effect from 1st April 2022. For ease of administration, after these percentage increases had been applied these fees were rounded up to the nearest £5. In addition to these percentage increases in the building control fees, there have been three 5080 more substantive changes to the fees that may be charged. The principal charge has been the introduction of a new regularisation fee of £200 that is charged for an application for unauthorised building works in addition to the plan fee that would usually be charged. The regularisation fee has been introduced to reflect that such applications are normally given priority in order to enable the sale of a property where works have been undertaken without approval and to encourage 5085 applicants to apply for building control measures in advance as required rather than seeking retrospective permission. The second substantive change has been the increase in the fee for a single residential dwelling by £100, before applying the percentage increases discussed previously. This increase has been applied to better reflect the work required to consider such building works and is still significantly 5090 lower than similar fees charged in other jurisdictions. Finally, the opportunity has been taken to expand the fees exemption for disabled people, Regulation 7, to apply to all persons considered disabled further to section 7 of, and the Schedule 1 of, the Equality Act 2017. This reduces the likelihood of challenges as to the fairness of the currently drafted exemption and supports the undertaking of adaptions to buildings to meet 5095 needs of disabled people. These Regulations have been consulted upon with representatives of the Island’s building industry, larger developers and building control authorities who are broadly content with the proposed changes. This consultation did identify some potential changes to the exemption fees

______2194 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

that may be granted typically to the development of multiple houses of the same design, but 5100 consultees were happy that this could be considered at a future time. Mr President, I beg to move that the Building Control (Fees) (No. 2) Regulations 2021 be approved.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Perkins. 5105 Mr Perkins: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The President: I put to the Court the Regulations at Item 10. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

Announcement of Royal Assent – International Maritime Standards Act 2021

5110 The President: Hon. Members, I can announce that Royal Assent has today been given to the International Maritime Standards Act 2021.

11. Food Act 1996 – Food Hygiene Ratings Regulations 2021 – Not moved

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture to move:

That the Food Hygiene Ratings Regulations 2021 [SD No 2021/0087] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 11, the Food Hygiene Ratings Regulations, will not be moved at this sitting. (Laughter and interjection)

12. Customs and Excise Management Act 1986/Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 – Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2021 approved

The Minister for the Treasury to move:

That the Customs and Excise Acts 1986 (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0123] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: We move on to Item 12, Customs and Excise Management Act etc. 5115 Minister for Treasury to move.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, this Order amends the Customs and Excise Management Act 1986 in line with amendments made in the United Kingdom. Article 3 inserts a new section 2A into the Act, which allows the Treasury to co-operate with 5120 other customs services on matters of mutual concern and for the purposes of implementing any international obligations which apply to the Island. This includes the European Union United Kingdom Trade and Cooperation Agreement and trade agreements the United Kingdom has ______2195 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

negotiated with other countries, which commits the Treasury to exchanging information with customs authorities to facilitate effective targeting and identification of non-compliant or 5125 fraudulent activity, and also to combat any breach of customs legislation. Article 3 also inserts new sections 173A to 173C of the Act relating to maintaining security and safety standards of goods. New section 173A gives the Treasury the power to make regulations for the purposes of monitoring and controlling the movement of goods for the purposes of combating risks to public health or safety, national security or the environment, including plant or 5130 animal health. In practice, this power would enable changes to be made to the legislative framework in the Island which governs customs entry and exit summary declarations and related purposes. Section 173A provides a power to allow the Treasury to make regulations to implement further international obligations relating to the movement of goods. This could include, for example, 5135 other international agreements regulating trade in endangered species or other goods subject to a prohibition or restriction. It could also allow for any legislative changes required to support any further customs co-operation initiatives within the framework of co-operation provisions set out in international agreements which apply to the Island. New section 173B allows the Treasury to disapply or simplify relevant requirements for 5140 operators with Authorised Economic Operator status for security and safety purposes or take the status of Authorised Economic Operator status into account in the exercise of a power or function under the regulations. This replicates provisions that applied under European Union customs law. New section 173C sets out further provisions and limitations concerning the regulation-making provisions in section 173A. 5145 Article 3 also omits section 174A of the Act, as this is no longer required now that the Island is not in a customs union with the European Union. Article 4 amends the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1986 to vary the excise duty in the rate of aviation gasoline in line with the amendments made in the United Kingdom. The rate is increased by £0.5p per litre. 5150 I beg to move.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Peake.

Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. 5155 I beg to second.

The President: I put the Order as set out at Item 12. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

13. Social Security Act 2000 – Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) Order 2021 approved

A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake) to move:

That the Social Security Legislation (Benefits) (Application) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0134] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 13, Social Security Act, Mr Peake from Treasury to move. 5160 A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake): Thank you, Mr President.

______2196 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

This Order applies to the Island a statutory instrument of the United Kingdom Parliament, namely the Social Security Revaluation of Earnings Factors Order 2021. This Order relates in particular to the additional state pension – a facet of the old state pension rules. 5165 The annual revaluation of earnings factors ensures that the value of earnings on which a person has paid National Insurance contributions or the flat rate contributions they have paid, which gave rise to the entitlement to additional state pension benefits, keeps pace with increases in earnings over time. Mr President, revaluation Orders such as this one being applied by this Order are made by the 5170 UK Department for Work and Pensions each year to revalue historic earnings factors in line with the movement in average earnings in Great Britain, and are subsequently applied to the Island by Order. They are therefore positive in nature. Following the introduction of the single-tier Manx state pension in April 2019, such Orders now have limited effect, as explained in the memorandum which was circulated to Hon. Members. 5175 Mr President, I beg to move Item 13.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Cannan.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 5180 The President: I put the Order at Item 13. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

14. Pension Schemes Act 1995 – Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 2021 approved

A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake) to move:

That the Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (No. 2) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0135] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 14, Pension Schemes Act, Mr Peake to move. 5185 A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake): Thank you, Mr President. This Order amends three sets of pension schemes regulations having effect in the Island following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union. The provisions which are amended relate to the types of insurance policies and annuity contracts that may be used in private pension 5190 schemes to discharge certain liabilities they have or to ensure a person’s pension credit benefit following a pension sharing on divorce. The amendments ensure that the rules for pension schemes in the Isle of Man will continue to be aligned with those for pension schemes in the UK in this regard and that the relevant legislation continues to work effectively. 5195 Mr President, I beg to move Item 14 on the Order Paper.

The President: Mr Cannan.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I beg to second and reserve my remarks. 5200 The President: I put the Order at Item 14. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

______2197 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

15. Pension Schemes Act 1995 – Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved

A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake) to move:

That the Pension Schemes Legislation (Application) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0137] [MEMO] be approved.

5205 The President: Item 15, Mr Peake to move.

A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake): Thank you, Mr President. This Item applies to the Island a statutory instrument of the United Kingdom Parliament relating to occupational pension schemes. The instrument specifies the percentage by which 5210 guaranteed minimum pensions in payment under occupational pension schemes must be increased with effect from 6th April 2021. Mr President, such instruments are made each year by the UK Department for Work and Pensions and are intended to prevent the eroding of certain occupational pension scheme benefits by inflation over time. The application to the Island ensures that the provision applying 5215 to the Isle of Man occupational pension schemes continue to be consistent with those for the UK. Mr President, I beg to move Item 15 on the Order Paper.

The President: Mr Cannan.

5220 The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I beg to second.

The President: I put the motion at Item 15. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

16. Social Security Act 2000 – Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2021 approved

A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake) to move:

That the Jobseekers Act 1995 (Application) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0136] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: Item 16, Mr Peake to move. 5225 A Member of the Treasury (Mr Peake): Thank you, Mr President. This Order removes a minor provision in the Jobseekers Act 1995 as it has effect in the Island, which was included in it by error when as an Act of Parliament it was applied to the Island in 1996. As stated in the memorandum which has been circulated to Hon. Members, notwithstanding the 5230 removal of this provision, any orders or regulations made by Treasury under the Jobseekers Act as it is applied in the Island will continue to require Tynwald approval before they come into effect. Mr President, this is a technical amendment and does not change policy in any respect and has absolutely no impact on benefit claimants. Rather, it is about ensuring that our legislation is accurate, up to date and fit for purpose. 5235 Mr President, I beg to move Item 16 on the Order Paper.

The President: Mr Cannan. ______2198 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): I beg to second.

5240 The President: I put the Order at Item 16. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

17.-18. Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 – Members of Tynwald (Annual Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved; Members of Tynwald (Annual Sums) (Amendment) Order 2021 approved

The Minister for the Treasury to move:

17. That the Members of Tynwald (Annual Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0140] [MEMO] be approved.

18. That the Members of Tynwald (Annual Sums) (Amendment) Order 2021 [SD No 2021/0139] [MEMO] be approved.

The President: The Minister would like to move the next two Items together and vote on them separately. Is that agreed? (Members: Agreed.) 5245 Mr Cannan, please.

The Minister for the Treasury (Mr Cannan): Mr President, Item 17, the Members of Tynwald (Annual Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2021 amends article 2 of the Members of Tynwald (Annual Expenses) Order 1998, which prescribes the annual sum for expenses payable to Members of 5250 Tynwald so that the annual sum prescribed for the purposes of section 3 of the Payment of Members’ Expenses Act 1989 is zero. Item 18, the Members of Tynwald (Annual Sums) (Amendment) Order 2021 amends the Members of Tynwald (Annual Sums) Order 2014, which prescribes the annual sums payable to Members of Tynwald and the uplifts payable to certain office holders. 5255 This measure makes changes to the annual sums payable to the President of Tynwald, a Member of the House of Keys or a Member of the Legislative Council and the percentage uplifts paid to those Members holding a specified office. A Member who holds more than one position is only entitled to one uplift. Where one uplift is higher than the other the Member will receive whichever is the higher uplift. These two measures at Items 17 and 18 implement the 5260 recommendations contained within the Cochrane Report, as amended and approved by this Hon. Court at its sitting in November 2020. Mr President, I beg to move that the Members of Tynwald (Annual Expenses) (Amendment) Order 2021 and the Members of Tynwald (Annual Sums) (Amendment) Order 2021, Items 17 and 18, be approved. 5265 The President: Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I beg to second.

5270 The President: I put to the Court, first, the Order at Item 17. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. The Order set out at Item 18. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

______2199 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

19. Armed Schooner ‘Peggy’ – Return to Castletown – Motion carried

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to move:

That Tynwald would welcome the return of the world renowned armed schooner ‘Peggy’ to an appropriate public display in Castletown; and asks the Trustees of Manx National Heritage to liaise with the sponsoring Department who should report by November 2021 on the following issues: (1) To provide an outline of the most appropriate structures to house the ‘Peggy’ in Castletown and identify the most suitable area within the Nautical Museum, in order to safeguard this important part of the Island’s history. To include the public display of the ‘Peggy’ for the enjoyment and education of future generations; (2) The production of a realistic timeline to secure the return of the ‘Peggy’ with a specific and easily identifiable staging posts for when the ‘Peggy’ will be returned to Castletown for public viewing within a reasonable timescale; and (3) To build on the positive statements from the current MNH’s Chair in which he gave an unequivocal commitment that the Peggy will return to Castletown as soon as sufficient finance can be raised to re-house her by including a business case for the most suitable option that will ensure adequate funding can be secured.

5275 The President: We move on now to the private Members’ motions. Item 19, motion in the name of Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse, Armed Schooner Peggy. Mr Moorhouse to move, please.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. 5280 The Peggy belongs in Castletown and this motion aims to find an appropriate way to enable her to return home. I hope that today we do not get bogged down in intricate detail. This is about empowering the trustees of Manx National Heritage within the next six months to prepare a realistic and practical proposal for the return of Peggy to the Island’s Nautical Museum within an acceptable timescale and budget. 5285 Today we have the potential to ask for a report on funding, the building and a timetable. After almost seven years of carrying out world-class conservation on the Peggy, it is time to empower the trustees to create a workable vision. A radio interview this morning has certainly created some concerns about the required funding. This is important, because the response to these words will hopefully provide a useful 5290 guidance on what we view as appropriate. One crucially important point which must be raised is that despite the local links this really does represent an all-Island opportunity. The Peggy is unique. She is the oldest complete vessel on the National Register of Historic Vessels and her significance is uncontested. Added to that, her provenance is exceptional, because of the vast quantity of papers left by George Quayle and the 5295 quite unique exhibits that remain in the Nautical Museum. This provenance really does place the Peggy in a class of her own. We have something quite exceptional. For the past decade, Manx National Heritage has been studying and conserving Peggy. In January 2015, she was moved from her boathouse at the Nautical Museum to a dedicated conservation faculty in Douglas, where a long process of controlled drying out began. We will mark 5300 the seventh anniversary of her leaving the Island’s capital early next year. One highlight of the Island’s third lockdown was the arrival of the superyacht which sailed down the Island’s eastern coast. While she was anchored in Douglas, a significant proportion of the Island’s population travelled from all around the Island to view this spectacular sight.

______2200 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Following her launch in 1789, the Peggy would have drawn similar crowds. As a proud nautical 5305 nation, we must now identify the best route forward. If successful, this motion will give the trustees of Manx National Heritage the opportunity to have six months to create the vision and the associated paperwork that will enable Peggy to return home. I really do hope that the Treasury will fully recognise the true potential of this motion. From my perspective, this is a wonderful opportunity for the trustees to enthuse Tynwald and 5310 to present a scheme. If this is done in an appropriate manner, the Treasury Minister will potentially be far more inclined to provide the funding and enable the vision to be turned into reality.

The Speaker: You’re new here! (Laughter) 5315 Mr Moorhouse: The motion has been carefully worded to encourage positive actions that Tynwald would welcome. The return of the world-renowned armed schooner Peggy to an appropriate public display in Castletown to provide an outline of the most appropriate structure to house the Peggy, the production of a realistic timeline to secure the return of the Peggy and a 5320 business case for the most suitable options that will help to ensure adequate funding can be secured. I have purposefully asked for six months to be allocated to producing these materials. It is a realistic timetable, given the work that has already been done and the need to have real confidence that something constructive is being done before the end of the year. This report must 5325 be realistic and reflect the new post-lockdown realities on Island, but with careful planning something quite exceptional and fitting can be achieved. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Mr Cregeen. 5330 Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President, and I beg to second the motion put forward by my colleague, Mr Moorhouse. Mr President, I think all of us realise that our heritage is a vital part of our national identity, something for us all (A Member: Hear, hear.) to be proud of, and it is Manx National Heritage’s 5335 duty to actually preserve those items that are in their possession. Mr President, this morning, I was deeply concerned by the statement that was made on the radio regarding £5 million to return the Peggy to Castletown. Personally, I felt it was an attempt to scuttle any return – (Interjections) Come on!

5340 The President: No nautical jokes, please. (Laughter)

Mr Cregeen: – to scuttle any return of the Peggy to Castletown, because we all know, coming out of this pandemic, there are many competing projects that will be coming forward. We heard this morning about the Corrin Home, and how do you balance those out? By coming up with a 5345 sum of £5 million, to me, it felt like, well, ‘How can we stop this and kick it into the long grass?’ The motion before us today hopefully will give us a realistic sum, something that will actually make it able to come back to Castletown. Hon. Members, I hope you will support the motion in front of you and I would like to thank Minister Skelly for all his assistance, because we have been discussing this with the Minister for 5350 some time. I would just like to acknowledge his help and support in this. I know the trustees, I have spoken to some of the trustees on this, and they are keen to move this forward, and I hope, with a realistic budget, that we do not go for the grandiose schemes. I was absolutely amazed when they said, ‘Oh, yes, well, what we have to do is we have to put the mast up on it, we have to put the sails on it, and it’s going to be in some fantastic new building.’ People are used to seeing

______2201 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

5355 the Peggy where it was. (Mr Quine: Hear, hear.) It should be in an environment where it was. We should not be going to try and over-egg the situation. So I hope Hon. Members will support it and we can come to something that will achieve the outcomes in the motion. With that, Mr President, I beg to second. 5360 The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mr Quine.

Mr Quine: Thank you, Mr President. The story of the Peggy has fascinated people from all over the world when they have visited 5365 the Nautical Museum. That was, of course, when she was in situ. The Peggy’s importance to our national heritage and the wider international maritime significance which she represents cannot be understated, and is borne out by the fact that she forms part of the National Historic Fleet of the UK National Historic Ships Register. It is therefore a responsibility of the highest importance that the Peggy is preserved so as her 5370 story can continue to be told, which will, I have no doubt, continue to captivate generations to come. But it is how she is preserved in a condition which best looks after her which is what we have to ensure. In view of this I have spent some time eliciting the advice of one of the Island’s most eminent master mariners. A gentleman with a lifetime’s experience in dealing with the care, maintenance 5375 and preservation of boats, who willingly discussed the issue of the Peggy’s preservation with me, giving me the benefit of his wide experience on such matters. Indeed in his long career as a mariner he has either as an individual or through his company owned some 60 vessels, five of which are wooden sailing vessels over 100 years old, so it is safe for us to assume that he knows what he is talking about. 5380 I have to say, Mr President, that the gentleman to whom I refer was somewhat less than complementary in certain of his remarks concerning the handling and restoration and the time it has taken. Indeed, he made a most valid point when he informed me that the primary reason that the Peggy has enjoyed such a good state of repair for over 200 years is as a direct consequence of the conditions in which she was kept – namely, being preserved in a dark and damp environment 5385 and not in an airy and light surround which, he astutely contends, would have had a detrimental effect on her longevity. Mr President, I welcomed the information which Mr Southworth was kind enough to forward to Members of this Hon. Court via email. However, in certain respects the correspondence appears to ask more questions than it answers, and sometimes was bordering on the alarmist. By 5390 such I mean the statement that ‘The Peggy was rescued from her “tomb” in 2015’. Mr President, I am not sure whether the use of the term ‘rescued’ is entirely factual. It then goes on, ‘At the time the wooden boat was suffering from exposure to the environment in the cellar where she had been entombed since around 1810’. Mr President, I would contend that the level of exposure which the Peggy was being exposed to in 2015 had not changed in 200 years, and therefore 5395 making a statement that the Peggy was having to be rescued from that same stable environment to which I previously referred may well be seen as misguided. However, Mr President, I will concede the importance which was stressed at the time, and is again referred to in Mr Southworth’s correspondence, of preventing any structural damage which could have resulted in the Peggy as she sat in her cradle for a prolonged period, as this can 5400 certainly lead to the vessel creeping under its own weight, with the potential therefore to cause damage around the vessel’s longitudinal and lateral axis. Nevertheless, when making reference to the ‘floods of 2014’ and the forecast high spring tides of 2015, Mr Southworth would again appear to conflict the advice from which I have received. The evidence being that the recorded tidal highs from the meteorological office at Ronaldsway 5405 would appear to be in full contradiction to what was implied by Mr Southworth. In fact, Mr President, from what I am led to understand, the highest tide was in fact in 2002. Indeed, for ______2202 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

the 200 years that the Peggy was in her position in her boathouse, there would have been numerous occasions when an ingress of sea water would have taken place, and which would have actually contributed to the wellbeing of the boat. For such an instance would have allowed her 5410 timber to swell and tighten before naturally drying out in the following months. This is why historically sailors would sluice the decks of old sailing ships with salt water following a period of rainfall. So consequently the predicted high tides as prophesised by Mr Southworth to occur in 2015 would not have had any more adverse effect on the state of the Peggy than similar big tides in the 5415 past, had they actually happened, which in this case they did not. Therefore I have to look to question the supposed advice which Mr Southworth refers, particularly the supposed ‘suffering of the boat, due to the environment in which she was kept.’ No report verifying such was submitted with his correspondence, certainly not to me, nor was the source of the advice to which he alludes offered. So I can only conclude that such advice, for what it is, is therefore subjective. 5420 Mr President, where did the notion come from that the Peggy needed drying out? It is diametrically opposed to the advice which I have been given. The Peggy is built from soft wood in order for her to endure in the climatic conditions which affect our shores, as opposed to, say, the Cutty Sark, which is iron framed and made of hard teak wood, because she was built for warm weather conditions. That leads me to question the notion of exhibiting the Peggy as she would 5425 have once appeared, by which I mean as a fully rigged two-masted schooner. Now, Mr President, I am sure no one would dispute that displaying her in such a configuration would be a sight to behold. However, as my hon. friend the Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, Mr Cregeen alluded to, her masts are in fact 26 feet in height. So it would undoubtedly require a building of immense proportions, and any financial commitment would be substantial 5430 to say the least. Housed in such a building as to exhibit the Peggy as a fully rigged schooner would expose her to conditions least favoured by wooden boats, notably the ultraviolet rays caused by sunlight. Mr President, one only has to walk along a quayside and even the most cursory glance will allow one to see the damage that freshwater and direct sunlight have caused to the timbers of wooden 5435 vessels which have spent an indefinite period out of the water exposed to such conditions. Indeed, I am informed that the Odin’s Raven, a wooden vessel of only a fraction of the age of the Peggy, has required a significant degree of renewal protection by way of fibre glass as a consequence of the conditions and the environment in which she is displayed. Mr President, notwithstanding that, the masts and rigging would apply immense pressure to 5440 the Peggy’s aged timbers and run the risk of doing irreparable damage. Would we really want to see that happen to the Peggy; for her to suffer such a fate, Mr President? Such an undertaking would in all probability only serve to sign the Peggy’s death warrant. Where the Peggy is stored is therefore vital to her upkeep. It is why the Mary Rose is kept in the conditions which she is, namely low light and a relative humidity of 75%. This allows her 5445 timbers to be best preserved. This brings me to the recent interview conducted by Paul Moulton with Mr Jonathan Hall, Chairman of Manx National Heritage. It was with nothing but the utmost incredulity that I watched what would appear to be yet another charm offensive by Manx National Heritage, looking to justify the lamentable period in which the Peggy has been stored in her supposed temporary 5450 home, whilst making reference to a further period for her to be kept there and the reasons why, all proving just as woeful. Indeed, in his interview, Mr Hall was happy to trot out the standard excuses for why the Peggy has had to be away from her home for six years, namely the fear of another year of high tides, wood rot and the deterioration of her iron fixings. The reference to high tides again, Mr President, I would say completely without foundation. And equally strangely, 5455 those very iron fixings which Mr Hall makes reference to are, I understand, now to be retained. Had the iron nails been in the kind of condition as offered by Manx National Heritage, and ceased to hold the timbers together, then the planking would have started to spring apart, and there does not appear to be any sign of this. ______2203 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

But perhaps the most peculiar notion put forward by Mr Hall was that of stating that the cost 5460 of exhibiting the Peggy following her return to display, as a fully rigged vessel of course, would be in the region of £5 million. How Mr Hall managed to deliver such a statement whilst all the time maintaining a straight face is something which perplexes me still. Mr President, in the opinion of many, I have no doubt, the magic of the Peggy is her story. The time she spent hidden away for generations. Whilst the tumults of the world went on around her, 5465 she remained swaddled in a boathouse, a self-preserving time capsule of the late 18th and 19th centuries. A fantastic legacy which reminds us of the ingenuity of George Quayle, a former Member, Mr President, of this Hon. Court. For the reasons I have given, it is in that very boathouse where the Peggy belongs. Sadly, the current state of the boathouse, together with certain other facilities in the charge of Manx National Heritage, would appear to serve as a searing indictment 5470 on the direction of Manx National Heritage, certainly over the last six years, and probably even longer. Mr Hall has been doing the rounds again, ahead of this debate, this time speaking on Manx Radio, again liberally sprinkling facts and figures and quoting so-called experts, without of course revealing who these experts are. And having stated a cost during the interview with Mr Moulton 5475 only a few days ago of £5 million, he is now quoting a price again, again whilst maintaining his customary straight face, north of £5 million. Mr President, I am sure there are many people on the Island, hardworking families who are struggling to make ends meet, who will be in full support of Mr Hall’s fantastic appraisal. Then again, probably not. Indeed, Mr Hall’s interview has been widely circulated on social media, with his estimate of ‘north of £5 million’ being greeted with 5480 wholesale derision. In fact one wag observed that we could raise the Titanic for such a price! From the comprehensible opinion that I have been offered, it would appear that the rationale behind the suggestions as to the best long-term preservation of the Peggy, as put forward by Manx National Heritage are, if you will permit me the use of an Americanism, Mr President, pure moonshine! The original boathouse could, I am informed, be returned to a good state of repair 5485 for a relatively modest sum – talking in the thousands, not hundreds of thousands, and nowhere near the millions, and certainly the staggering sums as proffered by Mr Hall. This would allow the Peggy to be returned and displayed for the enjoyment of all back where she belongs and within a reasonable period; back on display and well in time to commemorate the bicentennial of the death of Captain John Quilliam, which will fall in 2029. After six years spent 5490 in a totally alien environment, it is high time that a schedule was formulated for when she will be returned to her rightful home. Thank you, Mr President.

A Member: Hear, hear. 5495 The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. I wonder what George Quayle, the MHK and banker responsible for the original and still the 5500 Peggy that we have now would say to this debate and what has been going on. I think he would say get real! I think he would say you are absolutely having a laugh! And my message to the Hon. Members for Arbory, Castletown and Malew now also would be please get real, and £5 million to house the Peggy!

5505 Mr Cregeen: We weren’t saying that!

Mr Shimmins: Well, what I would say is work with people who want to do this, but raise the funds with a public appeal. Do not come here looking for these funds: run a public appeal! If you think it is that important, go to the community of Castletown and say, help us do this! Because I

______2204 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

5510 have to tell you, I think it is really concerning to me. And before people suggest that I am anti- heritage in any way –

The Speaker: Hear, hear. (Laughter and interjections)

5515 The President: Calm down, Hon. Members!

Mr Shimmins: Let me just remind Hon. Members, it was me who said I think it is ridiculous that the Manx Museum is closed on a Sunday. It was me who said, actually, heritage should be for everybody, so they can go and enjoy our wonderful Museum, (A Member: Hear, hear.) and I am 5520 really concerned about our approach, which seems to involve a blank cheque so that a small number of enthusiasts can indulge their personal interests. That is not what heritage should be about. Heritage should be for everybody. So that is why I object to the approach that I am seeing today. And the young people of this Island, who have many issues, who are struggling in many ways, whether that is housing or jobs 5525 or other issues, they look at the money that we are spending on heritage, which is generally enjoyed mostly by the older amongst us and they, ‘Why is this?’ Why is this? A mindset shift is required, Hon. Members. If you want to fund this, then let’s raise it. Let’s have public appeals. But stop asking the taxpayers of this Island to fund personal indulgences! It is just not right. Thank you, Mr President. 5530 The President: Hon. Member for Middle, Chief Minister.

The Chief Minister (Mr Quayle): Thank you, Mr President. I was not going to speak on this, but I had some concerns, so I thought I would raise them. 5535 The motion says workable vision:

as soon as sufficient finance can be raised … a business case for the most suitable option that will ensure adequate funding can be secured.

And another colleague has said the report must be realistic. Heritage is a vital part of our heritage, is what another colleague said. But equally the funding of … we have got a debate on ME coming up tomorrow, the Corrin Home, and we could go on of where we could spend several thousand million for the benefit of our people, and I think it is a balance. Life is a balance and getting ... who 5540 here does not support having the Peggy moved home? And therefore I am happy to support this motion, but I am caveating it that in no way do I support the spending of £5 million, (Several Members: Hear, hear.) or anything near that for that. So I fully support the intended motion of getting it back to Castletown. However, that said, I was thinking in my next chapter of my life I do have a shed with a horse tram, (Laughter) and 5545 maybe for two and a half million I could do a deal! (Laughter) And they could even put the mast up if they wanted! (Laughter) But joking apart! And my ancestor, obviously Mr Quayle, I could lay claim to it and move it to Marown – the only landlocked parish on the Isle of Man, (Laughter) so it would not sink!

5550 Mr Cregeen: So you can pay for the restoration now? (Laughter)

The Chief Minister: But joking apart, we have to be realistic that, yes, we fully support a bit of our heritage, a bit of our history, built by a Quayle, a fantastic outcome, but the sort of telephone numbers, which is quite ironic, for one of the next things we have got is a red call box on the 5555 agenda, these days have to stop. There has to be a practical element. It could well be argued by people who complain that the Peggy, which I did go and see myself personally three years ago as Chief Minister on a private visit just to look into this, a plan could

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have been worked on by now to have it ready, and I do not think the organisation, Manx National Heritage, have done themselves any favours really by allowing them into this position. They have 5560 got a new Director, who I will wish very well in the job, but I just say, in giving my support for this, in no way do I give the fantasy figures of £5 million. I think even if they could raise it from a wealthy benefactor, you would be better off putting half that money to use elsewhere. (A Member: Hear, hear.) So with that, thank you, Mr President. 5565 The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Sharpe.

Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I rise in support for the motion put forward by the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and 5570 Malew, Mr Moorhouse. Whilst it is true there are great financial pressures on Government at the present time, bringing the Peggy back to a suitable location in Castletown where she can be fully appreciated by the public is, I believe, an absolute must. After all, as we have heard, she is the world’s oldest schooner. When I did my research on this topic last night, I researched famous historic maritime vessels 5575 worldwide, Mr President, and Castletown’s Peggy is up there, alongside the world’s oldest dug- out canoe – the Pesse canoe in the Netherlands – which dates back to 8040 BC. The oldest Viking ship, which dates from 700 AD, found on the Baltic island of Saaremaa. HMS Victory in Portsmouth, the oldest ship of the line, dated 1765. The Great Britain in Bristol, the world’s oldest ocean liner. The Star of India, which we know is the oldest active sailing ship, built in the Isle of 5580 Man, but now on display in California. The Cutty Sark, the oldest clipper, dated 1869, proudly displayed in Greenwich. And in the middle of them all, Mr President, the Peggy: oldest schooner in the world dated 1789, location – as far as the rest of the world is concerned – Castletown, Isle of Man. Not only should it be on display for locals and visitors alike, it has a great story, and it is a real 5585 story with a beginning, a middle and hopefully, if we can help engineer it in some way, a happy ending. I was going to go through the story of the Peggy, but Mr Quine has already delighted this Hon. Court with all those details, so I will just move on to the end, which is how to house the Peggy. So we have heard it could cost in the region of £5 million, or we could go for a much more 5590 modest option. Now, Mr Shimmins did say that he thought that housing the Peggy and spending £5 million would be perhaps indulging a small number of people with specialised interests, but I would question; this is the world’s older schooner. So personally, and I am not saying we should spend £5 million of taxpayers’ money, but I think we should be making far more of this schooner and we should be displaying her correctly, fully rigged, and making her a tourist attraction for the 5595 Island. Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member for Ramsey, Mr Hooper.

5600 Mr Hooper: Thank you very much, Mr President. I have heard this is of the highest importance; it is an absolute must. I even heard earlier, ‘How do you balance this with things like social care, the cost of the old people’s home,’ and I would suggest to you, Hon. Members, if you are not quite clear how to balance the restoration of the Peggy with providing vital social care services for our elderly, you are in the wrong job. 5605 I have also seen a social media post where the Hon. Member who moved this motion made reference to a potential huge income that could be generated by the Peggy, and again references in his opening remarks that the Treasury Minister would welcome a fully fledged business case that is going to drive tourism on the Island. But I am not hearing a lot of realism here. I know Mr Cregeen, when he spoke, did talk about a realistic cost and a realistic business case, but I have ______2206 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

5610 not heard what that might look like. What is a realistic cost? Is it Mr Quineʼs thousands – his supposed expert telling him it is only going to cost thousands? If it is only going to cost thousands why has this money not been raised privately? The Queen’s Pier in Ramsey is a historic and very important piece of our heritage and yet Government has not funded a penny of that restoration and reconstruction. (Mr Shimmins: Well 5615 done to them!) The community have got involved, they have raised funds, there have been volunteers putting in hours and hours of their own time and work and effort into restoring a piece of our heritage.

Mr Cregeen: Mr President, will the Member give way? 5620 Mr Hooper: I will, of course.

Mr Cregeen: Thank you, Mr President. Just to correct the Hon. Member, Government has put a lot of money into the Queenʼs Pier. 5625 There was millions spent on it on preservation, they are still paying for some of the areas to keep artefacts from the Pier, from what I understand. So there has been Government money in, maybe not the last administration but the one before that, that has got into it, so there has been money spent.

5630 Mr Hooper: I think the Member just proved my point: 10 years ago was the last time you spent any money maintaining the Pier. Not a penny has been spent by Government refurbishing, renewing, bringing it back into use, is the point I am making. That is what is being asked for here. The motion is very non-specific around funding and all the language that I am hearing, it is almost like this is a done deal, Tynwald will approve. ‘We will get a realistic business case,’ no one has 5635 explained to me what realistic means. ‘That will be supported. That will be funded and we will go on.’ I am inherently uncomfortable with this idea of being asked today to potentially sign off millions of pounds worth of spending on this. It may very well have historic importance, it may very well be a small boost to tourism, but actually the argument has not been made for me today as to why we should basically open the cheque book and provide a blank cheque for the Peggy to 5640 be relocated. I am not saying that Government should not step in and support. I am not saying that Government funding is inappropriate. What I am saying is it has to be done in partnership with those enthusiasts that were mentioned, those people who do want to put their own resources and time and effort into this. I am not hearing that. I am not hearing that from the mover or the 5645 other people speaking in support. What I am hearing is, ‘Oh, it has all been overblown. The costs are not going to be that much. What are you all worried about? It is absolutely essential, it is important, it is a must.’ I have not heard any of that counterbalance that says, ‘Actually, this is probably going to be a complex and expensive piece of work; it is going to take a lot of time to decide what is appropriate; it is going to take a lot of input from the third sector, from private 5650 individuals.’ I have not heard any of that explained today. ‘We are all overcomplicating this and the Director of MNH is overcomplicating it and so is the Chair and all those people who speak against it. It is a lot simpler than we are making out.’ Mr Quine was quite entertaining. He said, ‘I haven’t heard the expert’s name.’ We have heard from a lot of experts today, Mr President, in this Chamber, and that is concerning to me. 5655 So I do not think I can support this off the back of the information that has been provided today. (A Member: Hear, hear.) I think I needed more of an explanation from the hon. mover as to what he means by ‘a realistic cost,’ what he means by ‘a realistic timescale’. How involved is he expecting Government to be versus private individuals, versus private fundraising; and if the cost is, as has been intimated, only going to be a few thousand, actually why has the money not been 5660 raised already? (Two Members: Hear, hear.) That, to me, shows maybe there is not that much

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interest out there. If you have not raised a few thousand pounds, which is all it is supposedly going to cost, why are we even here? So again, I think I need more information, more reassurance, that actually this motion is not going to lead us down that garden path, that it is going to leave the door open to all of this detail 5665 coming out further down the line; and I am sure the Hon. Member can provide it, but really it all comes back to that question about realism. Mr Cregeen said this is looking for some ‘realistic assessment, realistic cost,’ and that is what I think I need to hear from the hon. mover, if I am going to support this motion today.

5670 The President: Hon. Member, Mr Baker.

Mr Baker: Thank you, Mr President. We seem to be getting a little emotive about this issue and I just want to try to bring it back to the motion that the Hon. Member has brought forward. There is nothing in here about £5 million. 5675 There is nothing about asking Government for funding. There is nothing saying any commitment here. What I think the two Hon. Members for Arbory, Castletown and Malew are saying is, ‘We have got something here which is not what it should be,’ and they are saying please sort it out. This belongs to Manx National Heritage. Manx National Heritage has not resolved the situation. We have got something that is of value and they are saying enough is enough, please sort it out. 5680 So when I read the words of the Hon. Member’s motion it is asking for a report by November 2021. That is all it is asking for, and that report is scoped out: what sort of structure should we put it in; when should we do it; make sure it is in Castletown; and some funding options. That is what is being asked here. It is simple enough. There are no guarantees. It may well end up with the sort of telephone numbers that Mr Shimmins has talked about. It may not be feasible. 5685 But the Hon. Members, I think, are saying this is not good enough, sort it out, and I see this as effectively part of a process. It is a feasibility study to say, what can we do? How do we move this forward? It is not good enough as it is. I think I would agree, it is not good enough as it is. Having visited the Peggy in my youth as a young man growing up in the south of the Island, I remember going there in its authentic location, right by the sea. There is something special about 5690 this ship, and we know that heritage is part of our proposition as an Island. Our heritage is part of what makes us special and it is what will be key to getting visitors to come back to our Island as they look for distinctive holidays but not too far away from home. There is a great opportunity here for us. We have to be prepared to invest sensible amounts of money in a controlled way and to be able to debate these issues in the appropriate manner. So forget the £5 million. Forget 5695 Mr Shimmins’ hyperbole. There is a straightforward motion here which says come back by November with a report of what you are going to do and I think that is entirely sensible, and I commend both Hon. Members for bringing it forward.

Several Members: Hear, hear. 5700 The President: The Hon. Member for Garff, Mrs Caine.

Mrs Caine: Thank you, Mr President. Peggy is an old friend of mine. I visited her frequently for 10 years from 1997 until 2005. When 5705 I worked for the Department of Tourism, I took many visiting media to enjoy the delights of the Nautical Museum, with its well-informed guides, discovering the secret passages and the secret life they revealed about its entrepreneurial owner, but nothing compared with the awe experienced of revealing the boat in the cellar – or its tomb, as the Hon. Member for Douglas South terms it – being able to touch history and smell the sea and the walls and the wood. It is a 5710 very special place, and it is so sad that it is sitting there empty with the heart gone out of it. It is also staggering that such an ancient vessel was allowed to remain in a confined and damp space. But she survived. She survived intact, as George Quayle intended her to. Visiting her in that ______2208 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

setting was an essential part of the charm, the essential part of her story, and we are no experts to know whether she was deteriorating or stable in that environment or, indeed, required 5715 rescuing and restoration. We have to trust the experts. It was a pleasure to visit her last week in climate controlled conditions with restoration under way by Manx National Heritage, but the clinical conditions cannot compare with her proper home on the edge of Castletown Harbour; and who would not want Peggy to return to the Nautical Museum? It is concerning that she has been absent for six years, and it will likely be the same 5720 again before the most appropriate structures are developed to enable her to return. It is even more concerning, since the figure of £5 million was made public as the ballpark of what a suitable scheme would cost, that many keyboard warriors have already confined her to the scrap heap, dumped her, a lump of wood and they are busy spending the amount on other things. Heritage, our history, is not an either/or. Although some would feel heritage has not been 5725 a priority of Government spending in recent decades we know there have been other priorities. The VAT loss to the Island was key in the funding that was removed from Manx National Heritage. I do not doubt that all of them, the trustees and the management, have all done the best they could with what they had. Historic artefacts require love and care. Refurbishment costs money. Such funding does not, 5730 indeed cannot, always come from Government, but we must do the basics. Ensure we retain what we have for future generations, then we should promote the unique and exceptional items we have on this Island, seek funding from those that wish to contribute to their future, whether that future in the case of Peggy will be a visionary reinterpretation or a pragmatic, safe nursing home type berth for a very old lady. 5735 I congratulate the tenacity of the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew for bringing forward this motion, which of course I support. A report by November considering the most appropriate structure to house the Peggy seems the most pragmatic way forward. What would we do if we did not have a report? Are we just going to leave her to stay in the clinical conditions, in limbo, never returning to the boathouse in case that is somehow damaging, paying for an 5740 industrial unit where people go once a year because they can, but we are really missing the experience as it should be? So I hope the next parliament will ensure whatever scheme the report comes up with is followed or even if there are options, but whichever options are included I sincerely hope the Peggy returns to Castletown and soon. 5745 I disagree with the Hon. Member for Ramsey. Without a plan you cannot launch a fundraising campaign. You cannot get that public engagement without the vision of what it is you are setting out to achieve. Like the Hon. Member for Middle, Mr Shimmins, I wonder what George Quayle would make of it all. We need a plan. We need to be realistic. The figure of £5 million being floated has been very damaging – absolutely not helpful in focusing minds on the important issue, that is 5750 we have something unique, the world’s oldest schooner with a fascinating story. Anyone I took to see Peggy bricked up in her damp cellar fell in love with her. Peggy is a vital part of our history at the centre of the Irish Sea, and we need to ensure we retain her for future generations. That is all our responsibility. Let the report be done, bring Peggy home. Thank you, Mr President. 5755 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: The Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Maska.

5760 Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President. I do welcome this motion today. As has been said, much of our historic environment has not really been protected for quite a long time and this is, I am sorry, a very typical and very sad example. What I would say is I do not feel it is our position today to all become specialists and experts. I have done a postgraduate degree in conservation sciences, but I would not presume to ______2209 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

5765 actually apply my knowledge and prescribe how this important world-renowned vessel should be conserved.

Mr Quine: Would the Member give way, please?

5770 Mrs Maska: Yes, do. Yes.

Mr Quine: The Peggy has been preserved by a conservationist, but he is not a maritime conservationist. Whilst he is doing a good job – and I do not think anyone would dispute that – he is not a maritime conservationist. So the so-called expert opinions which are being offered to us 5775 are certainly open to question. Thank you, Mr President.

Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President. I absolutely understand. I have been to see the Mary Rose, I have been to see the Peggy. My 5780 children and I have been to the Nautical Museum many times and I understand the principle involved in how the vessel, kept secret for 200 years, was preserved because of its very locality. I absolutely understand that. What I am saying is that we all have such a varied opinion that we cannot actually advocate how we preserve this ship today. I did some research of my own as well, looking at possible options for funding, but they are 5785 few and far between even in a world and global situation. So resolving this problem is going to be a challenge, but I do see that there is an awful lot of merit in actually doing the report and making the inquiry. I want to know what is best. When something like the Peggy is gone, it is gone. It might be that what is happening within its house at the moment – and I did wonder when I went to see it probably two years ago now, about the methods of conservation because at that 5790 time I think it was being proposed that the iron fixings be removed, and there was also thought that it might be preserved with some kind of resin, which is really not great in conservation terms. But now that thought has been reversed. They are going to keep the iron fixings there. Quite often an historic iron fixing actually is more sound than something that you can produce today. So I am not saying I have got solutions for this, but someone can give us the best advice. I think, 5795 as has been said, one of the really important things about this vessel is where it stayed secret for 200 years – that is really where it should return. There is a debate as to whether it should be there with its masts hoisted and fully rigged; I think that might be a bridge too far, that is a high expectation. But to have the vessel in George Quayle’s dock, he knew what he was doing when he put his vessel in there and we never knew about it for another 200 years. How special is that? 5800 I remember my children being absolutely set on a magical trip when they learnt the history that attaches to that building. George Quayle, great character, great Manxman. Bridge House next door is another fascinating piece of heritage. It all needs to be combined and interpreted. I do not think it is our place to turn our backs on this, but it is not our place either to say, ‘Okay, yes, we have a blank cheque.’ That is what I would agree with. I agree with the motion, but not dedicating 5805 a budget. Let us actually have a meaningful report as to the best methods of conservation, the best location and not turn our backs on this important piece of our heritage. So I will be supporting the motion. Thank you, Mr President.

5810 A Member: Hear, hear.

The President: Hon. Member for Douglas South, Mrs Barber.

Mrs Barber and Mrs Christian: East! 5815 The President: Douglas East, yes. Douglas East. ______2210 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Mrs Barber: I am doing a tour still of all the constituencies! (Laughter) Thank you, Mr President. I have quite enjoyed listening to this and I found actually I have completely reversed where I am, and I am actually going to draft an amendment. I think what we need is a heritage strategy to 5820 be brought forward with an asset-by-asset discussion for Manx National Heritage sites, because actually I think clearly things have changed. If we look at the Laxey Wheel, we look at the pickle that I think Manx National Heritage have actually got into in some of these sites, clearly, we have got a problem actually with our heritage and we need to accept that and maybe look again. My story with the Peggy: we used to come on holiday to the Isle of Man – that is how I came 5825 here – and the Nautical Museum has been my favourite museum from the day I came. We went to all the museums every year many times, we are life members of Manx National Heritage, we absolutely love it, and my memories; the trap doors, I loved going, hiding behind the trap doors and I loved going down the secret passageways and pulling the little levers and seeing what would happen, and wondering when the floor would collapse and I would get in loads of trouble with 5830 the guy who was doing the tour. I liked learning about the smuggling and the mischief and the adventure of it all. And then there was a boat – I was not really interested in that, I will be honest with you, because it was really badly presented. It was quite dark, dingy, as a kid, not very exciting. Scroll back, a few weeks ago I went and visited it in a new home and was like, ‘Wow, this is dead interesting!’ Maybe it is my age, maybe it is a lot of things, but it definitely was great being 5835 able to see it actually, and properly see it. So controversial maybe, but I think it is interesting the boat clearly is of significance that we had not realised or appreciated, certainly in the time when I was going round and there were lots of stories, some of which it turns out now maybe are not as authentic as we perhaps thought they were, but they certainly made a great story when you went for a tour around and you were on your holidays. 5840 I think for me, Manx National Heritage should be commended, actually, because over the years they have really done a great job with living history. So we would go to museums all over the place and things that stuck in mind, ‘Who goes there!’, we all know everyone wanted to go past a hundred times as kids, back and forth, ‘Who goes there!’ Going and spending a day, and my parents would just drop me off at Cregneash to do quilting and go and pick eggs and shear sheep 5845 and other random things that were just fabulous. Banging my head on the way up the Laxey Wheel – I still do that now – hiding behind the hidden cabinets of George Quayle and meeting George the Viking at Odin’s Raven. There were all these amazing things and it was not the traditional glass cabinets, and I loved that. I think that is something we need to hold on to, because I think actually the Island has got this very good living heritage. But it costs money. It costs money 5850 and it requires investment. So I think that there is an important element around the scoping of projects that Government absolutely must support, and it is right that Government fund heritage, but there are also competing pressures that have been rightly talked about in here. There are hugely competing pressures. We are running heritage railways that are costing us an inordinate amount of money 5855 to run them in the levels that we are. And actually, there are other things that we are saying no to, that we have not been able to do to the fullness that we would like to, that are to do with healthcare and education, and there has to be a full and frank discussion about that, and we cannot ignore that. So I am certainly no expert in how we preserve boats. That is well outside my sphere of 5860 competence. I do know, I have been to the SS Great Britain, as clearly some others have, and it is really expensive. They have got it in some fancy tank, pumping the air out, signs everywhere telling you how many millions a year that costs you and asking to put money in pots to come and try and keep on top of it – it is an expensive job. So it is not just the capital costs of doing this work. If we go down this road, it is the revenue 5865 cost. There is going to be ongoing costs, there is going to be increased staffing, there is going to be increased costs around electricity to run these pumps. It is not going to be cheap. I think we have to be aware that there are things that I am not an expert on that are going to come as part of this package. ______2211 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

So I think what I would say is that the strategy for heritage cannot be an ever-expanding 5870 portfolio of loss-making sites that are being allowed to deteriorate. I am really clear on that. It just does not work. And I am going to throw it out there, and it is controversial, and I know it is going to really upset my very good friends in Arbory, Castletown and Malew, but actually, the more sites we have to try and preserve the more we line Manx National Heritage up to fail. (A Member: Hear, hear.) We have to consider this. It might not be popular, and I am not saying I am right, but I am 5875 saying to not consider whether this is the right place in the bigger picture, in strategic thinking, would be wrong. We would have failed. So I think we have to exercise real caution here about the longevity of our heritage, because actually, if we want to get it right, we have to really think now, and this is not about … I am not even convinced actually that both Members for Arbory, Castletown and Malew are clear on the 5880 same thing happening as each other because in terms of cost, I am not clear from their speeches that they are both on the same page with the cost. I do not think any of us know.

Mr Cregeen: We don’t.

5885 Mrs Barber: So that is what worries me about the fact that –

Mr Shimmins: They want a blank cheque, you see. They do not want to know …

Mrs Barber: That is what worries me about the motion: that every single element of this 5890 motion says it must be Castletown, (A Member: Yes!) and one element of the motion talks about making sure the funding is available, and so if the business case comes and the funding is huge, we have sort of tied ourselves in there, and that is why –

A Member: The will of Tynwald! 5895 Mrs Barber: – for me, I think that there is a bigger picture that is being missed. So I have not written anything down to do an amendment, but I really think it is an asset-by- asset review of Manx National Heritage to be brought back to Tynwald Court. I do not even know we need a motion, actually. Do you know what? They could just go and do it I think, actually. Is 5900 that what we are at? That is sort of what they are tasked with. But I do think there needs to be a bigger picture blue-sky thinking around this, because my big concern is we are going to have site after site, because the more things get old, the more heritage we have, and ultimately the more buildings that are registered that Manx National Heritage owns, the more pressure that puts on them. I note the lighthouses on the Calf of Man. We are going to go down this never-ending route 5905 and I just feel that Manx National Heritage will not know where to focus next, because actually it has almost become too big. So I am not going to actually move an amendment. I just think we all know where we are at, but none of us are experts and I would just exercise caution with this motion that it forces us down a route that actually I am not even sure is the right one. 5910 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Skelly.

Mr Skelly: Gura mie eu, Eaghtyrane. 5915 There is a statue across the road, our national poet, T E Brown, and he said to preserve what ‘is left to us of our ancient heritage’. It is very poignant obviously and today we have a motion about a heritage asset. That is an asset of many that past Governments have determined to set up Manx National Heritage as a charitable trust, an arm’s-length company, with a budget to manage our asset trusts, our assets here on the Isle of Man. That is natural and cultural heritage.

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5920 They have got 15 sites, major sites. They have got 3,000 acres they have to manage. They have a library, they have got archives, they have got artwork. Massive amount. Four and a half million pounds we give them – that is what we give them – and Mrs Barber is right, the funding model does need to be reviewed. But it should not be us that actually determines this over this particular issue. This is one particular asset and I thank Mr Quine in 5925 particular, and Mrs Sharpe too, for highlighting and doing the research on how important this particular asset is. It is of international importance. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It really is. The problem is how do you put a value on it? You cannot. When it is gone, it is gone, as found out with the Queen’s Pier. They had many battles in here, before my time, about how to keep that Queen’s Pier, but Government determined to spend money in the actual infrastructure of that 5930 and then gave it to the third sector to try and build what they are doing, and I applaud them and I applaud many other private enterprises and third sectors. Loayreyder and I are members of Rushen Heritage Trust. It is only a few years old, but it is a massive movement that has really recognised the value in our constituency. But it has also harnessed the value that people bring and their time and their effort, and we are going to have 5935 our own little heritage centre down there. Great, it is fantastic. But there are many other heritage trusts around the Island who do their own thing. But this is about national trust, national heritage. But what did we do here as this parliament? The Old Police Station in Castletown: it was going to be sold off by Home Affairs. We got involved, and do you know what? Manx National Heritage did step up, and they have to be applauded. Why? Because they were creative. They sold a 5940 property to help fund that and do you know what? They are partnered with private benefactors that is actually going to realise that heritage asset for future generations, a real benefit for Castletown, a real benefit for the Isle of Man. So I applaud Manx National Heritage for stepping up at that time. I will be before you one month from now. Why? Because they want to sell another property to help support Laxey Wheel, another major asset, another major fund that is required. 5945 But they are prepared to make those changes. Mr Shimmins and others are right to challenge about the funding, because that is the red herring, but the future funding of Manx National Heritage is and should be under debate. But we are at a critical time. There is a new Director been appointed, you have just heard. There will obviously be a new administration, new trustees and I think there is a debate to be had as to their 5950 future operation, and if parliament, Tynwald here, says they should be arm’s-length. So let’s remember that particular point. So in terms of funding, let’s not forget the Friends of Manx National Heritage. There are over 6,000 of them and many of them have put their hands in their pocket for various projects over the years. MNH have reserves, and I mentioned private benefactors that are available and willing to 5955 participate and support. So the motion before you, I am happy to support it, because I think it is reasonable and I also think that the people of Castletown and the people of the Isle of Man deserve to see the Peggy back in its rightful place. There is no open cheque and I think if Manx National Heritage are listening – I am sure they are – they will hear that very loud and clear. But remember this, Tynwald 5960 Members, we are not the experts. So we want to rely on the experts and that is what we entrust Manx National Heritage to do: to preserve whatever is left of us of our ancient heritage. Gura mie eu.

The President: Hon. Member of Council, Mrs Poole-Wilson. 5965 Mrs Poole-Wilson: Thank you, Mr President. Like the Hon. Member for Douglas East, I have been listening with interest to the debate, and I was not actually going to speak on it, but there are a few points that have occurred to me as we have gone on, one that, as Mr Hooper, Hon. Member for Ramsey has highlighted, there is in fact 5970 a Manx National Heritage strategy already – 2020 to 2022 – and as I look at this on page 13, it lists the priorities for Manx National Heritage. Priority 1 includes the Public Record Office and it ______2213 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

includes the Manx Crosses Project, which, I do not know if Hon. Members are aware, but I think there was a public meeting in Maughold not long ago with concerns about the poor actions that are seeing deterioration of those crosses, and it is something that my father-in-law has banged on 5975 about since he first arrived on the Isle of Man: that we have not done enough to secure that aspect of our unique heritage. But then when I turn the page to priority 2, number 1 on that list is ‘Quayle Legacy Project including the Peggy’. So Hon. Members, I am sort of with Mrs Barber here. We do not need a motion. We have a Manx National Heritage strategy. Now, if this Hon. Court wants to hold Manx National Heritage to 5980 account around delivery on this strategy, I think that is an entirely separate issue and that would be quite right. But actually, it is part of their strategy, it is for them to look and make a report on how they are going to deliver it, and if it is extensive funding beyond the funding they have, then to come up with options themselves as to how to raise the funding. I am uncomfortable – whilst I completely sympathise with the sentiment of the motion, I really 5985 do – that it is too vague, too woolly and actually, here we are as Tynwald Court getting involved in something, unlike the Corrin Home debate earlier, where I am not sure this is the right way for us to involve ourselves. I would prefer that Manx National Heritage got on with what it said it is going to do, generated its own report as it should, and that this Hon. Court holds them to account as appropriate. So for that reason, I am afraid I cannot support the motion today. (A Member: 5990 Hear, hear.) Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member for North Douglas, Mr Peake.

5995 Mr Peake: Thank you, Mr President. If something like this came to Treasury there would be a business case attached to it and we would be able to understand it. There is not, there really is not. I, too, agree with Mrs Poole-Wilson and Mrs Barber. I think they have actually made some very good comments. This is not the time to do that. Government needs to get out of the way of a lot of things, not actually start rushing 6000 forward and start telling Manx National Heritage what to do. It is, as Mrs Poole-Wilson said, number 2 on their list of strategies. So let’s get them on with it. Let’s expect a report, an update from them. We have to have some common sense here, Mr President. The emotion around trying to get the boat back. I did actually visit the boat when I was at Laxey Primary School. We had a day-trip 6005 down there on the old charabanc, and it was a great, great day out. But happy to support it getting back there, but really we cannot just have a blank cheque. This is not the position of Tynwald to be telling Manx National Heritage what to do, otherwise we will be having site after site in every month. So I support and urge Manx National Heritage to live up to their strategy and deliver on that. 6010 Thank you, Mr President. I will not be supporting the motion.

The President: Hon. Member, Ms Edge.

Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. 6015 I think the Hon. Member of Council really has hit the nail on the head that we should not be in here debating something which is our heritage and the experts are in Manx National Heritage. They have got a strategy, they have got a commitment within their strategy to bring something forward. I want all of our heritage saved for the future of the Isle of Man and it is attractions for some people. However, Manx National Heritage, if they know their jobs, and they feel that the 6020 Peggy needs to be returned back to Castletown in the building that it came from, I am quite confident that their strategy will deliver that, and totally agree with the Hon. Member for Douglas North, that we have got to stop interfering with the professionals in their field and let them get on with the job and deliver what they say in their strategies. ______2214 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Thank you, Mr President. 6025 The President: I call on Mr Moorhouse to reply.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you to everyone who has contributed. I would like to start off by thanking Mr Cregeen, who really focused on the key bit. It needs to 6030 be an appropriate scheme, and that is one thing that has gone through all the most positive speeches this afternoon: it needs to be appropriate. Mr Quine focused on the story – an incredible story. Mr Quineʼs words were really important and need to be considered. The Peggy was impressive in the cellar, and she is still amazing in the shed. We must be realistic. We do not need to take more risks with money, and more importantly 6035 with the Peggy herself. The Peggy is magical and hopefully some way forward can be found. I was disappointed with Mr Shimmins. Unfortunately he heard the £5 million and went no further. He did not really consider the wider implications in terms of what this motion is trying to do. It is trying to come up with a simple scheme that is going to focus on the building, the timetable and the funding. If that report comes back and is appropriate, it will hopefully move forward. If it 6040 is not appropriate, it will be binned and unfortunately, the Peggy will remain in situ for many more years.

Mr Shimmins: Will the Member give way?

6045 Mr Moorhouse: Of course.

Mr Shimmins: I am sorry that I disappointed you. My concern is just what you have said. If that report comes back, then it will happen. Actually, come with the report first, come with a business case, (A Member: Hear, hear.) because that is what has happened so many times. We have seen 6050 it before: this romantic picture is painted, before you know it, the taxpayer is paying out many millions of pounds. So I would ask the Member, do it a different way. If that is what you want, do it properly, but do not hoodwink people by saying, actually we are going to do it and then when the report comes in this Court is committed. It is just wrong – it is completely wrong. 6055 Mr Moorhouse: Certainly we are not committing the future politicians to anything. What we are saying is we want a business case that can be considered. We need to move forward in a positive manner. Mrs Sharpe’s contributions were impressive. They actually put the Peggy on the stage where 6060 she should be. Too often we take what we have got for granted, and I feel it is the case with the Peggy, and what Mrs Sharpe did really did raise our aspirations and our thought about the Peggy. Mr Hooper called for realism, and that is what my motion is trying to do. It is trying to be realistic, trying to get answers from the experts at Manx National Heritage in a timely way. It is six years since the Peggy left Castletown, she has been in situ, we need to move forward. It is 6065 important that something is put on the table, something is thought about. In terms of the motion, it is giving the trustees the opportunity to look at the best way forward, and hopefully the words that have been spoken in here today will give them some guidance in terms of what is realistic and what can make that difference. Thank you to Mr Baker. Again, he really went for realism and clarity. That is what the motion 6070 tries to do. It is not coming up with answers here, it is not us making decisions, it is getting the trustees to sit down, look at their priorities, look at what are the best options and put those in a report. A document that can be looked at and can be considered. Mrs Caine mentioned the importance of allowing the report to identify a way forward. She spoke with passion about the way in which you could actually touch the boat, the smell of the sea 6075 and she kept realism as being a key feature. ______2215 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Thank you to Mrs Maska. The thing that she really identified was we should not be in this position. We should not be sat here/stood here today saying words that are trying to nudge Manx National Heritage forward. They have identified something that is important, it is on their list, but how long will it remain there? We are just trying to give them that encouragement to move 6080 forward. Mrs Barber’s amendment is positive for another time. I was concerned –

Mr Cregeen: She hasn’t amended it.

6085 Mr Moorhouse: I know! I was concerned that it might have derailed us and sent us off in a different direction. All I want to do with this report is simply to have some clarification, some clear way forward that hopefully will be doable and realistic. Minister Skelly, as lead Minister in this area, his words are important. He spoke about their expertise, their guidance, them being guardians of our heritage, and that is key. 6090 I did not want to bring a motion that was critical. We have heard words today that have identified there have been issues, but this needs to be about moving forward, trying to find a way that is realistic in terms of cost and time. Mrs Poole-Wilson identifies that Manx National Heritage have identified Peggy and the story as being key going forward, and this report will hopefully enable them to enact that and to make 6095 it more realistic. Mr Peake has asked for a business case, and I agree with him. That is one of the key components we must have. This £5 million is scaring people and people do not need to be scared, there must be something more realistic.

6100 Mr Cregeen: Mr President, will the Member give way? Mr President, can the Member just confirm, I see it here, I am just wondering whether the Treasury Member has actually read the Order Paper, because it does say ‘a business case’ and as all Hon. Members here will know, Departments get dragged in front of Treasury to explain what their business case is going to be if they are going to need additional funding. So it is an additional 6105 hurdle that Manx National Heritage will have to go through. So it does not matter … as soon as a business case comes forward, MNH still have to present it to Treasury and then it still has to come this way. And the motion does say a business case (Interjection) to be included!

Mr Shimmins: Yes, with adequate funding. 6110 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you. Finally, Ms Edge. She identified that key issue that Manx National Heritage need to remain in the driving seat. But the key thing is, after six years, the Peggy has not moved forward, and what this report will hopefully do is give the trustees that incentive to put something on the table that 6115 is realistic and doable, and will not get thrown out, and will not be laughed at, but something that politicians can actually support and Manx National Heritage can then take forward through all the relevant stages. This is not about writing a cheque. It is coming up with a vision that is realistic and can be taken forward. 6120 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Members, I put before you the motion at Item 19 in the name of Mr Moorhouse. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes –

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A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 17, Noes 6

FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mrs Barber Mr Baker Mrs Christian Mr Boot Mrs Corlett Mrs Caine Mr Hooper Mr Callister Mr Peake Mr Cannan Mr Shimmins Mr Cregeen Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Moorhouse Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Robertshaw Mr Skelly Mr Speaker Mr Thomas

6125 The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys, 17 votes for, 6 against.

In the Council – Ayes 5, Noes 3

FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill Mrs Lord-Brennan Mr Henderson Mr Mercer The Lord Bishop Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Maska Mrs Sharpe

The President: And in the Council, 5 votes for and 3 against. The motion therefore carries. Motion carries.

20. Red call boxes – Repurposing and alternative support mechanisms – Motion carried

The Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew (Mr Moorhouse) to move:

That Tynwald recognises the historic value of some red call boxes; and supports the current plans to repurpose and identify alternative support mechanisms, where appropriate solutions can be found, to allow them to remain in situ at as many locations as possible.

The President: Item 20, red call boxes, Hon. Member, Mr Moorhouse, to move.

6130 Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President. Many of you will recognise this motion. It has many similarities with one from April’s Order Paper. However, this is very different. The motion has been repurposed and it will hopefully lead many of the iconic phone boxes across the Island to be repurposed in an equally effective manner.

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During the Island’s third lockdown, 35 phone boxes were placed under imminent threat. The 6135 process did not follow the advice provided in the telecoms code and at least two of the boxes already had private supporters. I was able to withdraw the motion last month simply because Manx Telecom did the right thing: they responded positively and restarted the whole process on 19th April 2021. When I withdrew the motion, I was hoping that things potentially were resolved, but that was 6140 not the case. The survival of any of the 35 telephone boxes is dependent on private businesses, charities and others taking on either responsibility to pay an annual fee to retain the kiosk in their current use or for them to be repurposed. Today marks the halfway stage in that process and in another 30 days’ time, the decommissioning of 35 phone boxes will potentially take place. From my perspective, this motion 6145 offers the opportunity to raise this concern. The motion is pretty unique. I am simply asking Tynwald to show support for an element of heritage. Critics might argue, in a rather pedantic way, that the Island’s heritage is not really involved in the phone boxes and it might concern them. Let this simply be seen as either conservation or an interesting example of recycling. I really do hope that Tynwald Members will support the motion and provide some 6150 encouragement to those individuals who might consider the brave step of either supporting a box financially or repurposing it. This is certainly not the most pressing issue before us today, but it certainly has merit. As the location of a defibrillator, a life might be saved; as a branch of a local library, a life might be improved; and as the location of a new business, it might propel a dream into reality. These structures are unique and can effectively be repurposed for a variety of positive 6155 uses. I do hope that you support me today and, more importantly, provide encouragement that might persuade people to grasp this opportunity before it is too late and most of the phone boxes disappear. Thank you, Mr President.

6160 The President: Hon. Member, Mrs Maska.

Mrs Maska: I beg to second, Mr President, and reserve my remarks.

The President: Hon. Member for Onchan, Ms Edge. 6165 Ms Edge: Thank you, Mr President. Obviously, we all love our red phone boxes and I would love Mr Moorhouse to be able to save them all, but obviously they are owned by a private company and yet again is this a motion where we are trying to interfere in the moving on of a private business? 6170 I am sure the Hon. Member can reassure me that … £300 to save a phone box, I think that is what the company has said. I am not sure if the Member has had any updates since that time as to how many people or organisations have come forward. Certainly there are some areas of the Island where they look unique more so than in other places. So I just wonder has the member had any update since the notices have gone into the red phone boxes? 6175 Thank you, Mr President.

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Shimmins.

Mr Shimmins: Thank you, Mr President. 6180 Just a few questions for the hon. mover. Why does the hon. mover think that the boxes are at risk, to use his words? Why does he think they will not survive? What is the root cause of that? Secondly, the motion talks about some red call boxes being of historic value; which ones? Which ones need to be survived and which ones are okay to let go? Actually where does this sit in his priorities and where does he think this sits in this Hon. Court’s priorities? 6185 Thank you. ______2218 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

The President: Hon. Member, Mr Boot.

The Minister for Environment, Food and Agriculture (Mr Boot): Thank you, Mr President. I think we have already acknowledged that this is not the most important bit of business before 6190 Tynwald today, but in an effort to be helpful to the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew, my Department, as Members will be aware, has responsibility to consider the architectural and historic interest of our heritage assets and I have tasked my officers to undertake an assessment of the value of our telephone boxes in respect of their potential for registration. From what we know at this stage, given that Giles Gilbert Scott designed the K6 and the rarity 6195 of the K8, it is likely that some of the best examples of the Island’s classic or iconic telephone boxes may be worthy of protection of designation. Some 15 red call boxes are already protected from removal without consent, where they sit as they are within conservation areas. Should some phone boxes be added to the Protected Buildings Register we will of course assist the existing and new owners to explore options for alternative uses, which would aid their long-term maintenance 6200 and protection. I would add that registration does not prevent a change of use where the significance of the structure or building is not undermined for any proposed changes, so that would facilitate the change to defibrillators or small library transfers or whatever. Thank you, Mr President.

6205 The President: Mrs Maska.

Mrs Maska: Thank you, Mr President. Just to say how grateful I am that the Minister for DEFA has actually asked his officers to carry out an assessment of these telephone boxes. I can see Members are amused by that thought, but 6210 Sir Giles Gilbert Scott is an architect of national standing. He designed the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool. He also designed Our Lady, Star of the Sea Catholic Church in Ramsey, which is one of the finest buildings in this Island. If you have never been in it, you really ought to do so before you die, because it is really one of the best buildings we have on this Island. I would say that there is merit in carrying out an assessment. Some of these boxes may not 6215 have any historic value, but some may and may be worthy of repurposing. They add to the historic landscape and streetscape that we have on this Island and again, once they are gone, they are gone and so we neglect that at our peril really, turning our backs on our heritage. Conservation areas, people used to pooh-pooh them, but we have some great conservation areas now that people realise the value. When you buy a property in a conservation area, when it is first 6220 designated there may be a bit of a dip in the value, but once people become comfortable and they look for a home, a conservation area status and the character is something that can add the kudos and the protection. It is almost an insurance. Okay – only red phone boxes, but they are part of what adds to the character. So I do welcome an assessment from the Department and if they are assessed as being valuable 6225 there may be a group registration that some will enter on to in that group and others will not be entered into that group. There need not be a financial implication. They can be, as the Minister has said, repurposed and people can actually find alternative and appropriate uses. So, Mr President, I am glad to second this motion and thank you very much.

6230 The President: Lord Bishop.

The Lord Bishop: Thank you, Mr President. It occurs to me that perhaps this conversation, this debate, this discussion we are having this evening could happen nowhere else! (Laughter) And nowhere but in Tynwald Court! Indeed there 6235 could be no more appropriate place in which it might happen. (A Member: Hear, hear.) It occurs to me also that we have been operating over the last 30 minutes or so in probably about four time zones in terms of history. We have been reflecting back on our red boxes and that ______2219 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

takes us back perhaps a century or so. We have been reflecting back on the Peggy, which clearly takes us further back than that. My hon. colleague on Council referred us in the previous debate 6240 to the stone crosses at Maughold and the meeting, which in fact was on Friday evening, around which I offered some reflection to do with heritage and what I called patrimony. And we reflect on all of that within the world’s oldest continuous parliament. So we have, within all of those things, an astonishing – indeed, one might say a unique – collection of heritage and patrimony. Indeed, to reflect a little further, as one might do on another occasion, on, for example, the 6245 stone crosses at Maughold we have there a collection that is unique in terms of historical interest anywhere in the world. We are talking here of things remaining in situ. I think of the old stone cross that is in situ at Lonan Old Church and has been in situ there probably for about 13 centuries. No one worrying too much about it at any particular point, but there it is, it continues to be. It continues to speak to us of our history and of our shared life. I thank my hon. colleague on Council, 6250 Mrs Maska, for her reflections around Gilbert Scott and the work of the architect there that has indeed enriched our life here. It strikes me also, as I thank the Hon. Member for Arbory, Castletown and Malew for bringing this motion, that it is actually a motion that is couched very gently. It is asking us to recognise the ‘historical value of some red call boxes,’ not necessarily all; to ‘identify alternative support 6255 mechanisms,’ whatever those may be, ‘where appropriate solutions can be found,’ acknowledging that that may not always be the case and ‘to allow them to remain in situ at as many locations as possible,’ acknowledging that in some cases it will not be. It strikes me that that is not a demanding or a difficult notion but nonetheless one that does sit happily and comfortably with our discussions and debates more widely this afternoon and some of our reflections around national identity. 6260 So, Mr President, I thank the Hon. Member for bringing this motion which I would be happy to support. Thank you.

The President: I call on Mrs Sharpe to speak. 6265 Mrs Sharpe: Thank you, Mr President. I would like to thank the Hon. Member for bringing this subject before this Hon. Court today. I have no doubt that the publicity surrounding the similar motion previously laid by the Hon. Member, but not debated during the previous Tynwald, helped goad Manx Telecom into 6270 applying its current plans – that is, an extended time period in which the public can at least stand a fair chance of becoming aware which boxes are to be decommissioned and to come up with plans of action to save them if they so desire. After all, the red public phone box is very much part of the British landscape. In March 2006, as part of a competition organised by the Design Museum and BBC Television to find Britain's 6275 favourite design icon since 1900, the telephone box was placed in the top 10 by the British public. I agree that Manx Telecom should not be forced to maintain an antiquated system no longer used by the public and I welcome the fact that the company is open to the idea of phone box adoption by the community. This is how it should be: if you want to save the iconic phone box that much then you have got to roll up your sleeves, take responsibility for it and do something 6280 with it. And the list is endless. In Laxey, our defibrillator is housed in a former telephone box. Elsewhere, in Ireland at an arts festival once I attended a poetry reading which was given from an old telephone box. In some places, phone boxes have become the very hub of a community. Cakes in the Call Box was opened in the hamlet of Cladich, near Inverary, Argyll – which you may know, Mr President, I 6285 don’t know – by two local women. ‘There’s no pub, no church and only about 30 people living here,’ they say, ‘so the phone box has given the community a focus point.’ Apparently, the box has an almost Tardis-like quality, given what is packed inside. Alongside their cakes, priced at £1.50 per slice, there are homemade jars of jams and chutneys as well as a book swap and a guest

______2220 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

book for visitors to sign. And according to the women, the honesty box always tallies at the end 6290 of the day. This call box, Mr President, has its own Facebook page. It is featured on the Visit Argyll website, in The Scotsman newspaper, under the headline ‘Scotland’s smallest cake shop opens in phone box’, it is featured on the Great British Food Hub website, it is a stock photo for an international picture agency and it attracts visitors from all over the country. 6295 Surely, we can have a phone box which does something uniquely Manx – a mini kipper smokehouse perhaps? (Laughter) The world’s first Bonnag Box? A Bee Gee Box? Maybe a Traa dy Liooar Box? I did read about the ‘colour therapy’ room which is a phone box with artificial grass on the floor and an adjustable stool, so the idea is for anyone who is having a rough day to retreat inside the 6300 box and be enveloped in the light emanating from stained glass panes, which depict mushrooms, bees, carp and buttercups. I am sure if there was a small charge for such a box in this building, Mr President, it would make a fortune! Thank you, Mr President. 6305 Mrs Maska: I’d go there now!

The President: That is very interesting, Mrs Maska. (Laughter) I remember when it was said you could fit all the Liberal MPs into a phone box! (Laughter and interjections) 6310 Mr Peake, you caught my eye.

Mr Peake: I did, yes. (A Member: Ooh!) Sorry, I thought I had got your attention earlier, Mr President, I did want to speak.

6315 The President: Yes, you have not spoken in fact, no, you are on my list.

Mr Peake: Oh, that is great. Sorry, I thought you had forgotten me.

The President: I need to get my glasses seen to. 6320 In that case, Mr Peake, (Laughter) and very briefly! We have three minutes, to include the wind-up speech of Mr Moorhouse!

Mr Peake: Thank you very much. You know me, Mr President. Absolutely. I do agree with Mrs Maska that Sir Giles Gilbert Scott is a great designer and my favourite 6325 telephone kiosk is the K6. But what I would not like to do is for Government to get in the way again of all the volunteers who actually want to save all these kiosks. Why would the Government want to get in the way again? Let the volunteers get in the way and actually retain what they want to use them for. They are part of the landscape and I do get the Lord Bishop – great remarks there. They are part of the landscape, but again why are we discussing it here? Why are we wanting to 6330 get involved? Please let the friends and the volunteers of the K6 kiosk help themselves. Thank you, Mr President.

Several Members: Hear, hear.

6335 Mr Henderson: Vote!

The President: Mr Moorhouse – and you have pretty good support I think.

Mr Moorhouse: Thank you, Mr President, and thank you to all who have contributed. 6340 Mrs Maska, thank you for seconding. ______2221 T138 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 18th MAY 2021

Ms Edge, this is not interfering with Manx Telecom, it is ensuring that their plans go forward. The hope that more of the phone boxes will go into private hands and be supported by the private individuals: we need to make sure that happens. There has been some interest, but we need to ensure that follows through. 6345 Mr Shimmins, Manx Telecom are moving forward with this, they have been very positive. They have said that if decommissioning happens then the phone boxes will be removed. Mr Boot did highlight that some of them will be protected and will remain because of that purpose, but again that is going to be down to the individual box in specific areas. Mrs Maska, thank you for raising the importance of the architectural significance of them. Once 6350 they are gone, they are gone and hopefully we can hold on to these. Thank you, Lord Bishop. You really raise the importance of this. It is not about changing things, it is about encouraging, saying we have got something quite special, let’s provide the notice required to get these things used for other things rather than being taken away and put in the Chief Minister’s garden! (Laughter and interjections) With the Peggy! 6355 Mrs Sharpe, thank you again for that calm reflective speech that really made us consider the options and opportunities. Mr Peake, I am not quite sure where you are coming from in terms of, I am not trying to change things, I am just trying to give the nudge that will encourage people to go forward and assist with something that Manx Telecom has proposed. 6360 Thank you very much, Mr President.

The President: Thank you, Hon. Member. I put Item 20 to the vote of the Court. Those in favour, say aye; against, no. The ayes have –

A division was called for and electronic voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys – Ayes 16, Noes 7

FOR AGAINST Mr Ashford Mrs Caine Mr Baker Mr Callister Mrs Barber Mrs Christian Mr Boot Mr Peake Mr Cannan Mr Robertshaw Mrs Corlett Mr Shimmins Mr Cregeen Mr Speaker Ms Edge Mr Harmer Mr Hooper Mr Moorhouse Mr Perkins Mr Quayle Mr Quine Mr Skelly Mr Thomas

The Speaker: Mr President, in the House of Keys, 16 for, 7 against.

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In the Council – Ayes 6, Noes 2

FOR AGAINST Mr Greenhill Mrs Lord-Brennan Mr Henderson Mr Mercer The Lord Bishop Mrs Maska Mrs Poole-Wilson Mrs Sharpe

The President: In the Council, 6 for, 2 against. The motion therefore carries. 6365 Hon. Members, that is a very good time to call it a day. The Court will now stand adjourned until 10.30 tomorrow morning.

The Court adjourned at 8.01 p.m.

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