An Oral History Of Columbia College Chicago

Nana Shineflug

It is June 4th, 1998, and this is an So this is a program that was other dancers in her company for a interview with Nana Shineflug of the independent but also, in a sense, while. And then, I’ve always had Interdisciplinary Arts Department. connected with several institu- this school called the Chicago tions. Did the other institutions Dance Center, and my partner at So the program here is [how have any problems or did the Chicago Dance Center said, old]? students have problems? “You’ve got to come see the space. Well, the Interdisciplinary Arts Somebody stuck here, about to It’s so beautiful you could just die.” program, which was originally get a degree from Loyola and It was just above the Biograph started under a group called the suddenly discovers that the Theater on Fullerton Avenue, on Consortium of Universities, which program had been bought by Lincoln and Fullerton. And so Bill was DePaul and Loyola and-what Columbia? said, “Quit that job. Let’s go look other schools where in that? There Oh no, that wasn’t a problem. Our for another studio, a really big were like four universities and they students, for the most part, have one.” So I went over to open up my were work programs that no one been here for what they can get for studio again, I had my dancers still university wanted to sponsor at a it as a human being, and some of dancing over there or teaching over graduate level but people wanted to them were in there to get a Masters at the other studio. And then even do, so they banned together and degree so they’d get more money. the Inter-Arts Department was they would teach these single We have a number of people who purchased by Columbia so then I courses. And you would shift are art teachers, you know, and it’s came back, but just in the Inter- around from one school to the not stupefied their thought and Arts Department. And then my other. Our students would get a made them go stony, in a comatose studio went bankrupt and I fooled degree from Loyola but, you know, state, get your Masters degree. So around for a while in the upper we’d be teaching at a complete they didn’t care where they got it, Northeastern area. different facility. There were just they just knew they needed it. So, programs like that. So at Columbia, no, they were fine. So you were teaching at Columbia when they started a grad program, until 1975, and then you went off we were perfect for this school Let me go back to that. Is that on your own above the Biograph because we were interdisciplinary your first connection with Theater? arts, graduate, hands-on, and Columbia College? Right, opened up a studio. Then in taught by faculty doing the things Actually, no. I was a full-time that they were teaching. Obviously faculty member in the Dance we had been a stepchild, the people Department from 1973 to ‘75. I’ve that were in the Consortium they always been a dancer in Chicago. would, you know, close the build- I’m in the era of Shirley Mordine, ing and turn all the lights out and so there were basically three of us you’d still be there because they’d that actually started the active forget about you, you know. So it dance community in Chicago: that was really nice for us to be with was Maggie Kast, Shirley, and people where we were part of the myself. When there wasn’t any real whole thing. We were definitely a dance community, we were the ones reflection of the whole entire who went like, “Hey, I want to College. And so they brought us dance so I guess I gotta to get some because we were already accredited people around me because I can’t and legitimate, and had a student do it by myself.” So we would all body and had a reputation and had basically try to collect stuff and all the things, so it was just perfect make things happen. And then for us. So Columbia just brought when Shirley’s company had a big our program, brought it in. explosion over there at the Dance Center and they left and formed Moming, and I became one of the

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‘83, Larry Edwards who owned the wrong, which actually was a great would be exhausted. So it’s a great Biograph said he wanted to open blessing. I was totally shocked by gift to me to be able to work in the movie theaters and kick us out. some of the stuff that happened in Theater Department. It’s also And we tried to move over into the process of doing that. So I taught me a ton about what basi- Rogers Park. It was at that time applied for, actually that was the cally the gods have been pushing at where it would be cool to move first time I ever applied for a job me ever since I remember. I got a into an old power station. So we was in my life. Because I’ve had chance, because in dancing there’s found an old power station in this life where, you know, people this overlay of the action of the step Rogers Park, very ‘70s, opened up, have always said, “Would you like and the type of technique that it hadn’t been used for twenty to do this?’ And I go like, “Yeah, you’re doing, you know, whether or years, raised eight thousand dollars sure, why not.” Then somebody not you’re doing Cunningham or to build these floors, so we did else will come up and say, “Would someone else and how complex the amazing things; we opened up this you like to do this?” And I say, combination is and are you work- new studio in Rogers Park, but not “Oh, OK, I don’t mind. That ing on your arabesque and can you one of our students followed us. would be fun.” So most of the time do this kind of turn; so that’s all Well, they didn’t want to go into I’ve just gone and done whatever it overlay. Whereas in the Theater Rogers Park. If I looked around the was to do. I mean, I did make a Department, all I had to do was try neighborhood I would have realized choice to have a dance company, to teach them to be charismatic, it had no character and I wouldn’t that I did choose to do. But I never you know? So I got a chance to have done it, you know? Because really tried to find a job. People really learn, in a really deep sense, there’s nothing that, at that time, just asked me if I wanted to work. what I know. had any real statement about Except this time, I actually applied anything, and people just didn’t for a job. The Body Movement I wish we were videotaping this want to go into Rogers Park. They position in the Theater Department because I’d like to ask you to liked North Avenue a lot, they opened up. So I actually put in an demonstrate. liked Wicker Park, it was like, application for a job, I interviewed, Well, the information that has “OK...” So we sort of lost it at that actually I didn’t interview. I walked come to me over the years, and point. We didn’t have a lot of back- in the office and Charley said, “You actually I’ve always been able to see ing at that point, we didn’t have a don’t need to talk to me. You’ve people’s energy flowing through lot of money in the bank to last got the job. Just fill up this piece their body. I used to say, I’m used very long. So we just folded up in of paper and go away.” I went, to talking about it in terms of August. “Fine.” water, which I found out relatively soon along the line is what a lot of That was ‘83? Did he know you already? the martial arts people use, because ‘83, right. And then I taught one Well, he knew Suzanne, and he it’s a primordial image that’s in class a year at every single studio in knew me. I had been around your lizard mind. So if you use the city of Chicago, which was very Chicago a long time and I have a water images the body responds so, interesting. And then I went over reputation with a lot of people and because basically what you’re trying to the Dance Department at I knew a lot of people in the to do in teaching anything with the Northeastern; took a sabbatical department. And I actually know body is get visual images that the leave and I did that for three years. something, the gift that the gods body will respond to. Because the But I got into trouble over there have given to me, which is perfect body has a natural, kinesthetic because I stood up for the students for our Theater Department. And intelligence, unlike what Howard against the department chair, which it’s also perfect for me to have a job Gardner thinks about it, which he is always a lethal thing to do. But I that does not exhaust me but exhil- doesn’t, he doesn’t know anything was still shocked. I thought, “I’m arates me when I teach for five about it, really. But he really does- so glad, I’m so glad. We’re doing hours straight without a break, n’t know what it is. Part of kines- such excellent work,” which we which is what I do, I teach from thetic intelligence is the body’s were, you know, we had such a nine to two without a break. And ability to sequence muscles and the good thing going. “They won’t teaching body movement, I get out proper sequence with the right dare fire me even if I do stand up of it and I feel wonderful. Whereas amount of energies to produce a against the department.” But, if I had to teach dancing, which is particular thing that it has a visual basically destructive to the body, I

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image of. And you make it look it. So I don’t know if this is what to say, something, whatever. exactly like that physical image, you want me to be talking about both dynamically and physically. but that’s what I’m talking about. Tell me about students, what do That is you got that, “YEO!” you What do you want to know? they do? I’m asking because I know, I don’t know how to do that, r eally don’t know. I know the I only, my body, if I go, “Y-e-o!” You began teaching in the movies, or I go to the theater and my body knows how to sequence Theater Department what year? I see them up there but... all the muscles to make that See, that’s what I was going to look I would say that the truth of the happen with that dynamic and up. matter is, I think most teachers at with that shape. So basically that’s Columbia, you’re teaching one what you’re trying to teach people About ‘86 or ‘90 or something? thing: that you’re really teaching to do. And water flowing, and Oh, ‘86 or ‘87, around in there. So people to live and become alive as you’re trying to get the chi body: it’s been about ten years. human beings. I think that—did you go to the graduate ceremony? there’s two bodies at the minimum. So what you were just talking You know, there’s seven in most about, that’s kind of what you’ve No. systems but you’ve got the gross been trying to teach students in physical body or the physical body, Michael Rabiger said the most theater? wonderful thing. which we honor by never calling it I’ve always been teaching dance gross in our culture, and we have that way. Always teaching people That’s what I heard. the body of chi or the chronic body to try to flow and unclog their chi It was absolutely wonderful because or the body of light or the body of lines in order to dance. But theater he said, “In most academia, what whatever you want to call it, the people want to be charismatic, you you’re trying to do is stand on the body of mind and the body of chi, know, so what I got a chance to top of the mountain and challenge the body of energy. And what you learn how to do is to label people, people to come up to the mountain want to do is have the body of there’s a lot of things about your to knock you off. At Columbia, energy support the physical body. physical body that you need to do. what we’re trying to do is to look You put it in form and have it flow You’re basically a four-legged at every student that comes here to make the physical body move. animal trying to stand on two legs and say, “You know what? There’s And the water images are the best and operate like a four-legged just a ton of stuff that you could do images to use to do that because animal. So you need to be able to that would make your life very your deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, become conscious of the base of exciting and you could manifest deepest, primordial intelligence is your scapula and move your arms yourself with all the gifts that God that of the surviving mammal, the from the base of your scapula rather gave you.” And I think that’s the sun, water, plants growing, you than through your shoulder sockets. difference between the way we know. Those are like the three And you need to use your spine teach and the way a lot of other images that we respond to. We really well; you need to develop a academic institutions [teach]: we’re understand that because you had to sense of sacrum because that’s your not competitive. We don’t teach drink the water or you die, you had sacred bone. And let that be the students to be competitive; we try to eat the plants or whatever, you center of your physical body and let to teach students to manifest. So we had to know a plant from stone, the center of your chi body work have to believe that as a race, as a and you had to know when it was with it. But I got a chance to human population, that we are day or night. So actually stars and develop methods of teaching that starting up, which is nothing new sun, plants and water are the that really, really work and are because the Hindus have said that strongest images that people effective, you know, by trial and for a long time. We’re at a dark respond to. So when you make an error, which I don’t even have time nadir at this point in time and unbendable arm, when you do this, to do that with dance students. I we’re about to start going up where you know, people hang off their mean, I can talk about it but I’m the spirit is an important part of arms. It’s not muscles that’s hold- still busy teaching other stuff. the culture. You know, spirit is not ing it, it’s the water flow. You have When you’re teaching dancing an important part of our culture. water flowing through your arms in that—to teach just that was a great Religion is an important part of the martial arts when you’re doing gift to me because I really got to some; a controlling religion is an figure it out. And what was I going

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important part. But individual ing to me. So basically what I’m given this information. I started spiritualism I think is what’s doing is, I’m definitely teaching combining Eastern mysticism with coming on. You know, where God them to be energy stars in the Western physicality. I’ve done a lot is inside of you and you’re ruled by theater, but along the way I also of bodybuilding. My degree, my love instead of God outside of you recognize that I’m teaching them, training’s in mathematics, I’m a ruled by fear. And I think in order I’m also trying to teach them to mathematician, so I’m very inter- to do that, you have to combine deal with life. Because I think ested in axiomatic systems and mind, body, spirit. Because the people need other people to say finding out what the fundamental body is as important for spiritual cool things. You know, I say to principles are that underline any growth as going to church or them, “Come on! You’ve got system of thought. So it’s probably thinking about it with your mind. choices, you know? Don’t be help- why I figured it out because I’m And our culture does not have less and powerless. Figure out what the right person to give this stuff anything to do with the develop- your choices are and make a choice! to because I go like, “Oh, that’s ment of the human being through Don’t just stand around with a interesting. I wonder why he would the body other than how much thumb in your mouth!” You know, do that, you know?” and I thought, muscle do you have and how big is so I say stuff like that to my “You know, that’s even farther it. Or, how strong are you? That’s students if they don’t take action. down than that. What are the real the question in our culture: How Because I expect them to always be principles upon which you’re build- strong are you and how big are active. So while I’m teaching body ing the system, you know?” And your muscles? How beautiful is movement, I’m teaching them to there are of course many ways of your body according to the stan- clarify the body through the doing it and I happened to meld dards of beauty from whoever’s motion of the chi and try to remove one that actually really works. It’s setting them up. the chi blocks. Because like if this very simple, as Einstein said, it’s is your heart-chakra, if you close really, really simple. Also, all the And I think the weird thing about your heart-chakra for a long period principles of systems that I use are the whole thing is that, of course, of time, that makes you depressed. principles that work in every other like one of the traditional Hindu Whether or not you start to be aspect of your life. So it unifies, you ways of achieving enlightenment is depressed you’ll start to go in the know, the way you treat your chil- to clarify the body. It’s called area of depression. I learned to open dren, the way you buy your hatha-yoga. And so basically what my heart-chakra. That opens all of groceries, the way you go to sleep I’m teaching is a clarification of the me and leads me into not being at night with the way you move, body through the chi. So it is depressed. If I had the opportunity and the way you think about your totally useful as a theater thing I have much greater tendency not body, So... because it makes you charismatic, to be depressed when my heart- which is what every theater student chakra’s opened than when my I want to follow up on your wants to be. They want to stand up heart-chakra’s closed. And I didn’t students a little bit, you on the stage and everybody go, spend a lot of time in class talking mentioned your students. Let me “Wow.” And by charisma, that about stuff like this but I recognize go back, can we go back a means you’re an energy star. And that when I open up their heart- minute when you were teaching that’s why on the little doors they chakras and teach them to keep it dance? say, “Oh here. She’s the star.” And open, that’s going to be the result. Yeah. I still teach dance. it isn’t because they think you’re You don’t teach the spiritual up in the sky, but they actually aspects of it, because the spiritual You still teach dance? recognize you as an energy star. aspects come as a result of what I have a dance company and I still And nobody can resist an energy you’re doing, but basically that’s do dancing myself, trying to figure star out of the same reason that the what I’m doing. And I feel like out what it means to be fifty-two water works. My primordialist, everybody’s chosen to do some- year old dancer. You know, we have deepest mind is so attracted to a thing. You’re given a gift, you a culture that doesn’t accept that, shining star I cannot resist you. I know, in your life. And if you end you know, which is interesting. But am totally open to you and I will up being happy what you’ve done what do you want to know about not push you away if you are a star. is sort of try to manifest whatever teaching dance? You will have a big chance of talk- gift that it is that you’ve gotten and try to use it well. I’ve just been

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Well, I wanted to go back to the, and more into making money, I never thought about that. This I’m curious about who the which of course is fine, you know, is Western culture, American students were and what it was whatever you need to do. But culture. Where the men don’t like teaching dance in ‘73 to ‘75. there’s tons of dance students, dance. Well, the same students that are people that want to feel that expe- I think that it’s only in Western here now. I mean, there’s just a ton rience. culture that the men don’t dance, of people in the world that want to you know? It’s what happened dance. Even a lot of people that How many—when you were teach- during the time when they burned don’t have a desire to dance profes- ing in the ‘70s, were these all the books in the Dark Ages and sionally recognize that, you know. mostly students who were plan- everybody was a heretic; they were Shiva is said to be a dancer because ning to be majoring in dance at trying to remove physical mysti- dancing is one of the things that Columbia? cism out of the structure of the body needs to do. The body Everything, everything that you thought because at the end points needs rhythmic dancing, the body can think of: women with five chil- of physical mysticism is magic. If needs to move out, go in, the body dren, people that weighed two- anybody practices it long enough, needs to be connected and the body hundred and fifty pounds, we’ve you can do things other people needs to be joyful. And you feel got people like that in our can’t do with magic. And that was better when your life is better and program, not too many of those, a not an OK thing in Christianity. I your body is able to dance. And few people that wanted to dance mean, that’s why the secret doctrine once again our culture does not but wouldn’t be technically good has always been passed down by promote this thought, especially for enough to get into a dance word of mouth instead of being men, who are not supposed to company, and just tons of other written down. But it was always dance because it’s supposed to be a people that just wanted to dance, passed around because they killed bad thing for you to do. You know, wanted to feel the experience of all the people that knew it. It was a it makes me very sad that we feel motion, wanting to know what it very dangerous thing to have infor- that way. Hopefully, maybe some- felt like to be connected and in mation about the Kaballah or day that will change. I mean, I touch with gravity. Because that’s Tantric yoga in your person. You have a two-year old grandson. He another thing that dance does for were very dangerous to people in demands to dance every night. He you; it connects you to the universe power because you could teach takes you up, points to the boom- because you can’t dance well if you people to be free. And you could box, wants you try put on The don’t connect with gravity. And teach people to activate your charis- Nutcracker Suite or some other you have to sing an accurate, matic body. They didn’t want you piece of classical music so he can dynamic gravitational song in order to do that; they wanted to control dance, and twirl, and close his eyes to be a good dancer, which means you. So they sacrificed all the and feel the pleasure of moving his that you have to be in synch with people that knew that, burned all body. And we’ve removed that from what goes on in the universe. the books, removed it all from the our culture to a certain extent. In Which to a certain extent connects language. I mean, there’s not a the ‘70s there was such a revolt, you to the stars and makes your life word for the chi body in the you know, when the young people better in a deep sense. It’s interest- English language. It’s in every revolted, one of the things that ing, isn’t it? other culture of language. I mean, they revolted into was dance. So in Japanese call it qui, the Chinese the late ‘60s, ‘70s, into the early Yeah. call it chi, the Indians called it ‘80s, if you were going to a dance Yeah. And I feel so bad that we’ve pranja, people in the islands in the class in the city of Chicago you had done that to almost every man in South Pacific call it something else, to get there early because there was our culture, cut them off from that in South America I think they call going to be a line and not every- experience. Because in most it manna. So there’s a name for the body was going to get in. I mean, cultures it is the men who would energy body in almost every culture it’s that wonderful. The health dance first and the women will fit except for Western culture, which clubs started taking over and the in the dance second. You know, the has no word for it, which is the aerobics people got into the other men were the ones because they ultimate form of censorship because thing because they got less into art took over; you know, the Sufis, the then you can’t think about it, Sufi dancers were all men. There were no female Sufi dancers.

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because there’s no word for it. Dance Center, he was a big dancers. I mean, I’ve always known Because words are magic. It’s like producer in New York in the that Columbia was a place where if erasing the nose off of the Egyptian theater or television, I’m not sure you were a working artist you statues. You erase the thought or which one. Eric Trules was totally could work. And it didn’t make the capacity to do something. poor, a great, wonderful guy. any difference if you were degreed. Totally wacko, a ton of fun, way But the one thing you had to do Tell me, in the ‘70s, was this a out there, ended up going to clown was be good at what you were political thing at Columbia? Is school down in Florida. Suzy teaching, as a practicing artist. And this a political issue, you think Kimmelman, who ended up doping you know, I love that idea, but I it’s political? a lot of tai chi teaching and actu- didn’t really know anybody. I actu- Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, ally a great spirit. And Jackie ally don’t know a lot of people now, it was the young people taking off Radis, who ended up running which I think is true of a lot of their clothes, taking off their bras, Moming. Those were the people Columbia faculty, because we’re out saying, “Screw you, we don’t want who were the major people in the doing our stuff. And I’m fine with to make money. We want to experi- Dance Center, and Shirley. And that, you know, I don’t feel bad ence ourselves. We want to live our those were the people at Columbia. about not knowing all the people lives, we want to explore things.” It Then there were other people in the English Department. It’s was also the advent of the first outside of Columbia; Maggie Kast, like, that’s fine, “Blah, blah, blah, information about Eastern culture who was doing work down by the teaches there.” And I’m like, “Yep. that came into the West through University of Chicago. Myself, I Probably true, but I can’t help the average person, not through the was working on the North Side and you.” I know the Theater universities. Because the Beatles there weren’t any others. I mean, Department pretty well, because met the Maharishi, you know, and we were the ones who started it. I’m there. I know the Dance brought transcendental meditation, Department; I don’t have time for which everybody was doing at that And when you were at Columbia, the rest of it. And since most period of time, which involved the where was the Dance Center? Columbia teachers don’t develop body and the mind and all that The Dance Center’s on Sheridan politics, most of us don’t care about stuff. And the ideals of spiritualism Road and Lawrence. politics, you don’t get into that through the body started to come stuff, which is also good. into the culture. I mean, I defi- But was it there at the time you nitely think it’s a political thing. that you taught? Did you have any connection to Yeah, it was there. It originally was people like Mike Alexandroff... And from that period, who were over in the old studios on Wells I always loved Mike Alexandroff. I some of the people that you Street. You know, Charlie Chaplin loved what he did. I loved the fact r emember best from Columbia Studios. But by that time, the time that this guy took this little noth- College? I got there, Donna Sugarman’s ing blob and manifested his People I remember? Throughout father had bought the Dance thought, you know, turned his that period at Columbia it was the Center, which is now a movie heart and spirit into an institution. Dance Department. It was Shirley theater, so they could have a real You know, I think that’s just the and all of her dancers, who became home with lights and all that other coolest thing in the world. That’s the socialist revolutionists of the stuff so that they could actually what I was talking about manifest- time. Tem Harwitz, some of these produce theatrical stuff. And my ing yourself. I think that’s the only guys, it’s very funny, they’re chil- company danced there all the time way you can be really happy is to dren of very rich people, who were because I loved the Dance Center as figure out, “What can I possible do very socialistic when it came to a performance space, a great black for the everyday people, for the everything except that if they box theater. So we’d dance there a common people?” And do it. What wanted to take a trip they used lot. I say is to my children is, you their parents’ credit card and went. know, “My goal is to somehow Tem Harwitz is actually one of the So did you get, I’m curious, what increase the aesthetic energy of the biggest developers in the city of kind of sense of connection did universe; take the sound up maybe Chicago now. Donna Sugarman, you feel to what was going on in one fraction of a decibel in my life- whose father actually bought the that 540 building? time. If I can do that, fine. As long None, none whatsoever. I’m just telling you, I just knew the

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as I don’t drag it down and make inside, I was just injured very terri- You take moving images, you have the sound lower and rumbly. I want bly. I’ve also been an alcoholic so in to choreograph work, learn to to take it up just a notch and make the process of becoming a recover- move, correctly choreograph work. it a little leaner sound, a little ing alcoholic I had a therapist who You take sound images, you write purer sound, that’s cool.” I think would say, “Move your feet, doesn’t music. You do visual images, you Mike did that and I think every- matter what you’re doing. Try to paint, draw, create sculpture. Word body who saw this place grow went think of something that would be images; you write. And dramatic like, “Cool,” you know, “Great, good for you, but keep your feet images; you create interactive, what a concept.” And the whole moving.” The worst thing in the creative stuff. Well, you’ve got philosophy of teaching here, it is world, when you’re not doing well, fourteen weeks and the standards just excellent. It’s the only kind of is to try to stop or stand still. Go! are very high. So you go in and we place I can teach, I’ll always teach Go! And the more you get have some magical teachers in our the way I teach but it gets me into depressed, faster, harder, go. So I program. So you go like, “Oh my trouble, like it did at Northeastern. decided that I would go through God, I have to write this piece of Because I would never teach for the the graduate program myself, the music, it’s next week. And then I administration, I would never teach one that I’m teaching at the Inter- perform it, I not only have to write for the money. I would never teach Arts program. So Lya Rosenblum it, I have to perform it.” So, but the for something I couldn’t believe in. very beautifully gave me a fellow- truth of the matter is you find your I’d rather go jump off a bridge. ship to go through the program aesthetic soul really fast. Because and I went through the graduate these things are scary for a lot of Have you ever gotten in trouble program and got my degree. people, I mean, performing is just with people? Which I knew from all the years hugely scary for a lot of people. Basically, no. I think everybody that I taught in it, it’s a human- Even people who are still visual here respects anybody. If I’ve got a altering program. It’s a spiritual artists, when they get up there they stupid thing that I think is a good program, really; it is an academic don’t feel, they’ve never felt idea, I’m practically willing to program, but it’s more of a spiritual comfortable in their bodies and listen to anyone that has a counter- program because people come out they’re supposed to do not just a idea that will alter and give me of it knowing who they are what movement work but an artistic more information so that I don’t they’ve got to say, how they’re work, which means it’s hoped that think what I’m thinking, you going to do it, and they’re not it will be meaningful to other know? And I think that’s every- afraid. And so I went like, “OK, people looking at it, which is a big body’s attitude. I’ve thought of what am I going to do?” So I went deal. And they find out that they things that probably weren’t so hot. throughout this program and it can actually do that. Because most But nobody attacks you for that. changed me because I was really of the time I’m an initiator, which Suzanne goes like, “You know gone to a large extent, and it filled most of the people in our program what? Think about it.” When the me up again. So it was good to be a are. In other words, I’ll alter your Dance Center went down, I was different person. I have a body just by your being with me. also injured: I blew my rotator cuff completely different outlook on So I can tell you something and off the bone. So I ruined my body. everything, which is hopefully show you to do something and The guy that I was going with that something you keep doing about touch you and you’ll actually start I thought was the love of my life every seven years. doing it. So actually the second for the rest of my life split and my week of the choreographic program, mother lost it. And I loved the What are some of the things that people do really cool work. They sit Dance Center, it wasn’t just I liked you did in that program? I’m and look at each other and go, it, I loved it. It was a human thing interested in this because I’ve “Wow, that’s great. Gee.” And to me; it was a living thing. And I interviewed some people who are they’re really moved by it, not really got depressed. I was superfi- undergraduate students here but falsely, it is moving. Because people cially able to act because I’m always now we have a graduate student. that have spirit—we don’t take able to do that. I’ve got enough What you do in the program is, people without spirit; we don’t take will power that I can always keep you’re thrown into five studio basically young souls in our myself going. But I was just so classes almost immediately where program. We only take souls that stunned. I was unable to experience you have to create in art forms that are struggling to become and they you know nothing about, really.

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find out that they can become in so just a bodily experience that brings program gives you the kind of guts many areas. you in contact with some of the and insight to be able to do that. powers that you have, but that you The thing that happens when really had no idea that you were Tell me about some of your fellow you’re in an art form where you able to manifest. students in this program when have no skills is that you have to do you were a student. the essential part of it. You can’t I mean, one of the things that OK. There are so many students because your only skill is to cover it happened to me was when I was in because I was teaching these up. You can’t draw a hand beauti- the fifth grade I wrote a poem and students as well as being with fully, so you have to draw some- the teacher that I had told me that them, so it’s all blended together. thing deeper in your soul. So what it wasn’t any good. And I am very Who was in my class? I really actu- happens in doing these things, stubborn; I’m also very sensitive. It ally have to go and sit down and because we don’t have superficial hurt my feelings just extremely look at who was in my class skills, you have to do the funda- deeply. Because I thought the poem because I have this relationship mental thing, and that is connect was beautiful and wonderful, and to with every student and they all that idea into what you have to say me it expressed my deepest feel- look the same to me. And I don’t as a human being. So people find ings. And I never wrote again. I know whether he or she was in out very quickly what they’re was smart enough to proficiency class or not. And also because I trying to do in their lives. Over the out of every English class that ever don’t separate myself as a teacher period of a year, by the time they existed and I never took any, you from my students, I don’t ever feel get to the end of it, we take them know, I just wouldn’t write. I the difference. So I don’t know up to Lake Geneva for a week and would write a letter but I wasn’t whether I was in class with them, we do nothing but art for a week in about to write anything creative. or they were in class with me, or Lake Geneva, which is probably the And so I took this writing course who was in class with who. So I first time these people have ever and I had a lot of trouble writing. don’t really have that recollection. had the chance, or the luxury, of And I didn’t do it the right way My recollection... not washing the dishes, walking because dancing is basically the dog, going to work, and taking abstract. We’re dealing with big What’s your sense of them? care of the children, you know, all abstractions, writing is basically What’s my sense of the students? the other things that people have to specific. So I would write these big do; and their mothers and their abstractions and Steve Lovy would Yeah. fathers were in the hospital and say, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Oh. What happens in our student blah, blah, blah. And all these art This is meaningless to anyone else.” body is we graduate almost every- forms that had been floating And I remember one night I said, body that comes in, which is proba- around like this is their essence, “OK, I’ll go out and do it again.” I bly really unusual for any graduate they do things, “Boing!” And all of started crying. I sat outside Steve’s program. We have twenty-four a sudden people start having real- door for two and a half-hours people come in, we go out with izations about themselves as human crying and trying to write. I would twenty-three. And the other two beings and what their issues are bring it back in, he’d keep going, have gone because we really want and how they can manifest the “Better, but not good enough.” them to go usually, or something expression of those issues through And I would go back out in the happens. But the students form a art. And it just changes people hallway and cry again. But in the family. Each one of our groups because of that. And then they go end, I love to write now. I do a lot forms a family and they support on the second year and start mani- of writing. I actually took a gradu- each other and help each other and festing, figuring out how to mani- ate writing course. I mean in the cheer for each other and love each fest it. It’s just a very challenging graduate school, not in the interdis- other. And so it’s a very intimate program and to produce an inter- ciplinary program. I took a gradu- thing that you do. Even though, as disciplinary production where ate writing course, I got an A. I I tell you, I can’t remember specifi- you’re doing film maybe and chore- even got published. This is the cally who it was because it ographing a movement work with kind of program it is. How could I, happened every year and it’s been five people and writing text and who hasn’t written since the fifth twenty-one years and it’s a lot of doing all these other things, it’s grade, go into a graduate writing students. class and be successful? And our

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So tell, you were saying that you That to me is, I love insight. That’s “Well, you know, if I read what you r emember teachers. why people do mathematics, write, I think you’re really stupid. Yeah. because of the kick of insight. It’s It’s not like you can’t fix it.” So the basically a drug habit because you beauty of this place is we’ve got What do you remember about love to watch that mesh. You love things to help you do that: “Why them, what do you remember? to experience the mesh yourself; don’t you take the opportunity to I remember the Friedlichs; they’re you love to watch the mesh on fix this before you go any further people that I know. I was really somebody else happen. And that to along? Because if I just read what interested to see how other people me is how I teach, you know, when you’ve written I think you have no teach, because it was very cool for I’m poking around. I’m a problem brain cell in your head and you me to have that experience, because solver so when I teach I poke probably don’t have much poten- I know each of the teachers in our around, try to find out where the tial. You know, so that’s not what I program is a master and each of parts are, what’s trying to mesh, feel about you, so here’s the thing them is an initiator and a magical and then trying to see if I can help from the Writing Center, go. Go to person. It was just a hoot for me to it to mesh. And open enrollment the Writing Center, fix yourself up go in and see how each of them kids, a lot of them have not been so you can write a letter that people came at what they were doing. But on a steady, developmental path. So can read and exhibit your intelli- I learned, you know, so much about there’s a lot of latent, great stuff gence.” And also say things like, everything, you know. As I said, I that hasn’t been on the develop- “This is a right-brain institution. A learned about writing. I had no mental path. So when it meshes, lot of right-brained people don’t clue how to write and I didn’t it’s so exciting to watch. It just know how to work the left side of know how you’d ask anybody to goes BANG, you know, it just their brain. It doesn’t mean you write. But I could actually lead explodes. And kids that have their can’t, you just haven’t bothered, somebody in writing exercises now first aesthetic experience and go you know?” But it’s really good to after being in that class. And I and find themselves are so beauti- be in balance, as we’ve discussed, know how to free somebody up to ful. There is an innocence to the because we’ve talked a lot about think because I do; we work with energy and a beauty to the energy balancing the oppositional forces in kids a lot. And I feel very confident that I don’t think is possible with order to be in the middle, in order in leading them to writing things somebody who has always been a to be a successful human being, you and into painting and stuff like good worker, you know? So on that know. As a mover, if you don’t that, which they do usually in our side it’s great. That’s why I like balance your yin and your yang, programs because they are multi- teaching at Northeastern because you can’t be a good mover and you disciplinary rather than just move- most of those kids are English as a have to be in balance between the ment programs. second language, never had an oppositional forces. And you have

Let me go back to the College as aesthetic experience in the Western to use your right side of your brain a whole. This is an open enroll- art world, never been encouraged to and your left side of your brain in ment institution. What does that do that. You know, so to me that’s order to be in balance as a human mean, in the work you’re doing? the greatest. I’d much rather teach being. And you’re going to go out Or, what has it meant in the in a place where that’s a possibility into the world. People from the past? than teach in a very controlled, very University of Chicago have a lot of It’s a good and bad thing of course, sedate environment where everyone control, and you’re going to want like everything else. The wonderful has been steadily working without things from them. And when you thing is it permits people who have any kind of big side stuff going on. want something from them, you never manifested their potential to So to me that’s great. I do think have to move in their direction all of a sudden get the lights there’s enough steady people who because they aren’t going to move turned on. So I, as a teacher, took are exciting. in yours. And so you need to go this wonderful privilege; taking and learn how to be like that. You And the downside of it is, like their don’t have to buy anything false in somebody who was, knowing there writing and their speaking is just was something and kind of going, order to do it. A lot of them feel it atrocious. I keep saying to them, would be buying something false. “Duh, duh, duh.” And watching “You’re really bright, aren’t you? them focus and going, “Whoa!” You think you’re bright.” “Yeah.”

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So that’s the downside of being an You think they are? Do you think people who we traditionally think open enrollment institution, but I Columbia’s having an impact? of impact because I’m not influenc- love it. I love the fact that I think the whole thing down the ing some Harvard professor. I’m Alexandroff gave a good chance to road is about five hundred years. influencing people who are going everybody because I totally believe You know, so I don’t think it’s to maybe someday teach there. You in that. I never get up on anybody. coming fast. Because I can’t imag- know, probably not, but they’re I can’t stand people who roll ine the people at Harvard relin- going to go somewhere, they’re around and make judgements as to quishing their power that they get going to influence somebody who what people can do and what their by being on top of the mountain. is going to go there. Actually we potential is, you know? I think that And I think it’s very hard for the do have a graduate in our program every human being has to make male, macho, American culture, the now teaching at Yale. You know, in that decision for themselves. And I moment culture, the materialistic the graduate program at Yale. I have to keep giving you chances culture to do that. The spiritualism gotta go. because some doors are slammed. which I think is growing in a That’s what’s the matter with geometric progression will become Oh, OK. Germany: people have to make a powerful enough to affect the hier- decision about what they’re going archy. I think it’s going to grow to do in their life when they’re from underneath. The last things to fourteen. How is that possible? But be affected, in the general scheme they get a chance to, people at an of things, are things on the top. older age, to still manifest them- Because it’s going to be a move- selves instead of closing doors in ment that happens underneath and people’s faces. And I totally love it. permeates outward. I don’t think that you can do it from the top How would you describe the because there’s too much invest- mission of the College in connec- ment in the status quo at the top of tion to American higher educa- anything. But I think it’s going to tion? be a peaceful revolution that’s Well, I think exactly, I think going to happen from underneath. exactly what Michael said. I think we are changing from the Piscean Do you think Columbia’s had an age into the Aquarian age. I see an impact, to narrow things a little, age that is ruled by far and God on the arts and communications outside of yourself. So there are media? people on top of the mountain I think we have an impact on every shaking their fingers. We are now student who exits here. I take fifty in the Aquarian age where God had students every year and alter their to come from the inside of every whole view of the world. I mean, single individual and we have to be not completely, but I alter their ruled by love. In other words, we mind/body/spirit ideas. That alters have to develop human beings that their ideas. Those people go out in love themselves and do not operate the world, they meet somebody by imposition but operate from else. I think we have a terrific manifestation. And as far as I’m impact but we’re not having it concerned Columbia College is through the associations of univer- doing that thing. And the whole sity people who meet in Zurich, institution, all the institutions of Switzerland. We’re going to our country need to change to that absolutely have an impact, and we eventually, or we’re going to be do, we have a complete impact. In down the creek. So that’s my posi- the city of Chicago we have a tion, is everybody else better turn terrific impact. And I think we around. have a terrific impact everywhere, but it’s just not maybe the kind of

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