The People of the Beautiful River at Jemseg V olume 1: Important Stories and Spoken Histories The People of the Beautiful River at Jemseg

Volume 1: Important Stories and Spoken Histories

edited by

Karen Perley and Susan Blair

New Brunswick Manuscripts in Archaeology 34E Archaeological Services Services d'archéologie Heritage Branch Direction du patrimoine Culture and Sport Secretariat Secrétariat à la Culture et au Sport Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg

The People of the Beautiful River at Jemseg

edited by Karen Perley and Susan Blair

Volume 1 Important Stories and Spoken Histories Jemseg Crossing Archaeology Project

The final version of this report was compiled with financial support from the Grand Lake Meadows Project Management Committee.

Archaeological Services Services d'archéologie Heritage Branch Direction du patrimoine Culture and Sport Secretariat Secrétariat à la Culture et au Sport 1998 This series is designed to facilitate the distribution of manuscripts relating to archaeology. They will be published in small quantities and will generally be available by special request only.

© Karen Perley and Susan Blair and the Province of New Brunswick

New Brunswick Manuscripts in Archaeology 34E, 2003.

Edited by: Karen Perley and Susan Blair

Published by: Archaeological Services, Heritage Branch Culture and Sport Secretariat 2003

P.O. Box 6000 , N.B. E3B 5H1,

ISBN 1-55396-147-1

Printed in Canada

CNB 2204 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Mawlukhotapun - Working Together Acknowledgements

The Jemseg Crossing Archaeology Project was only made possible by the philosophy of “working together”. In business settings, this approach is often called the “team” approach. However, the concept of a “team” is a simplification of how it actually worked at Jemseg. “Teams” are usually formal concrete working groups, usually formed to compete against other teams. Our “working together” was less formal. We were united by our desires to salvage an important site as respectfully and carefully as we could. In a basic way, the project only moved forward through the hard work and contributions of hundreds of individuals. We thank you all for your effort, courage, time, patience, and care. These contributions were often multifaceted, and many gave freely of their expertise and hidden talents in ways not initially envisaged when they came to the site. Many project members, such as John Keenan and Bazil Nash, worked tirelessly to provide information about the project to their communities, and yet were also fundamental in the group approach to solving the archaeological field work problem of working through the winter. The fieldwork was enabled by a core of archaeological supervisors, including Colin Varley, Chris Blair, Katherine Patton, Sam Gallagher, Bazil Nash, Pamela Dickinson, John Keenan, Darcy Dignam, Vincent Bourgeois, Joel Calabrese, Jason Jeandron, Michael Saunders, Shianne MacDonald, Phillip Atwin, Paul McEachan, Mike Nicholas, and field crew, including Viktoria Kramer, Frank Lewey, Jennifer Butler, Barbara Oldford, Clifton Sacobie, Elvis Sacobie, Mike Smith, Nathan Atwin, Donald Paul, Joe Brooks, the late Gerry Pickles, Philippe McKay, Alexandra Francis-Steward, Ian Steward, Wesley Atwin, Terry Smith, Carol Smith, Fred Masters, Doug Solomon, Ryan Francis, Frank Atwin, Dale Nash. The “Week-enders” filled in for us on Saturdays and Sundays, and included Patricia

i KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Looman, Daniel MacKenzie, Larry Orechia, Starr Perley, Chkwabun Nicholas Sappier, Wade Perley, Lisa Maher, David Wilson, Chris Nason, Melanie Doerig, Sonja Harding, Brad Lamey, Cory Lavender, Randy MacBeth, Amanda White, Shelly Perley, Forest Boudreau, Alphonsus Bourgeois, Jeff Dobson, Jeremy Farris, Brent Francis, Ryan Francis, Jamie Gullison, Hazel Haneveld, Mark Hiscock, Wendy Hogan, Ben Hood, Greg Houston, Gary Jonah, Janice Keenan, Sherry Morin, Mona Nicholas, Mike Niski, Brad Paul, Karri-Lynn Paul, Richard Paul, Scott Paul, Leslie Perley, Marie Perley, Robert Perley, Danny Sabattis, Bert Sacobie, Joseph Sacobie, Paul Tomer, Janet Wainwright, and Kathy Weeks. The conservation, laboratory work and analysis was facilitated by a dedicated crew of analysts, cataloguers, technicians and a conservator. These included Frances Stewart, Alexandra Sumner, Brent Suttie, Valery Monahan, Paula Paul, Ramona Nicholas, Erica Bear, Tanya Bourgeois, Janice Keenan, Bonnie Atwin, Margaret Stennitt, Diane Paul, Wendy Hogan, David Black, and Stephen Monckton. The methodological problems were overcome by considerable brainstorming by Tim MacAfee, Bazil Nash, Phil Atwin, Frank Atwin, Dale Nash, Chris Blair, Peter Jardine, and Patrick Polchies. As the educational component of the project grew under the guidance of Karen Perley, project members offered their expertise and interest, so as to bring information about our work and New Brunswick’s Wolastoqiyik community to the public and to the large number of young people who came with school or community groups, such as Ramona Nicholas, Valery Monahan, Cynthia Adams, Teana Pickles, Shelly Perley, Tim MacAfee, Pamela Dickenson, Chris Blair, Alice Paul and Erica Bear. The site was originally found due to the diligence of Colin MacKinnon, who recovered artifacts from the beach in the early 1990s, and reported them to Archaeological Services. Volunteers came to site and contributed labour, including Stella Nicholas, Rodney Bear, Tasha Moulton, Doreen Francis, Perry Perley Jr., Mike Moulton, Carl Perley Jr., Storm Perley, Baquahason Sappier and Heather Smith. Site security and transportation was handled by a number of individuals, including Daryl Paul of First Nation, Joe Paul, Donna Paul, The Peacekeepers, including Tina Nicholas Bernard, Raymond Nicholas and Tina Nicholas Martin, and the RCMP provided additional support to these efforts. Additional legal advice was provided by Ron Gaffney. The project was coordinated by a team consisting of Susan Blair, the field director, Karen Perley, the education coordinator, Patrick Polchies the project manager, and Chris Turnbull the director of Archaeology Branch. Together with Patricia Allen of Archaeology Branch, this group ‘liaised’ between provincial and aboriginal governments. Pat Allen also provided an important support role in the field and in the main offices of the Archaeology Branch. Further office administration was provided by Amanda Howlett, Crystall Joscak, and Ernest Merasty.

ii Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

A project of this magnitude benefits from the contribution of many organizations and government offices, and we received a great deal of assistance from the New Brunswick provincial government, especially Louise Gillis, Jennifer Pollock, Marsha Hello, Shirley Phillips, Mike Randall, Sharon Pond, Wayne Burley, Denis Lachappelle, Dan Horseman, Mike Phillips, Brian McEwing, Doug Johnson, Bernard Richard (Minister of Intergovernmental and Aboriginal Affairs, Sheldon Lee (Minister of Transportation), and Ann Breault (Minister Municipalities, Culture and Housing), as well as from the Maritime Road Development Corportation, especially Bob Burdette and Bob Hodgins. First Nations governments have contributed greatly to this project, including Karen Kierstead and Roger Nason (Oromocto First Nation), and Daryl Paul (Kingsclear First Nation), and especially the Chiefs at the time, including Chief Robert Atwin, the late Chief Rufford Sacobie, Chief Edwin Bernard, Chief Patrick Francis, Chief Arthur Bear, Chief John Wallace, Vice Chief Len Tomah, Chief Tom Green and Chief Floyd Bernard. This support continues to the present Chiefs in their appointment of members to the Advisory Committee on Archaeology, and these Chiefs include Chief Jean-Guy Cimon, Chief Stewart Paul, Chief Jeff Tomah, Chief Robert Atwin, Chief Arthur Bear, and Chief Roger Atwin. The first Maliseet Advisory Committee on the Jemseg Crossing Project involved a great deal of time and support from a number of individuals, including Irvin Polchies, the late Charlie Paul, David Perley, Karen Perley, Ned Bear, Dick Paul, Robert Bernard, Chris Turnbull, David Keenlyside, Brian McEwing, and Mike Phillips. Many individuals have continued to provide time and support through the second Maliseet Advisory Committee on Archaeology, including Charles (Diamond) Nicholas, Vincent Nicholas, Patty Paul, Mae Perley, Linda Paul, Marjorie Paul, Rocky Paul, Sharon Paul, Tim Nicholas, Phil Atwin, Ned Bear, Robert Bernard, Dianne Pelletier, Barb Nicholas, Amanda Howlett, Karen Perley and Patricia Allen. Many individuals independently came to the site or provided support, insight and knowledge, including Wayne Nicholas, Marlene Shumate, Shirley Bear, Gwen Bear, Darrel Paul, Alice Paul, the late Christina Nash. We would like to thank the following Elders who took part in the Spoken History project: Tina Brooks, Pat Laporte, and Josephine Paul (Sitansisk/St. Mary’s First Nation), Richard Polchies Junior (Sitansisk/St. Mary’s First Nation), the late Theresa Sacobie (Pilick/Kingsclear First Nation), Ronald Paul (Sitansisk/St. Mary’s First Nation), Charles Solomon Sr. (Pilick/Kingsclear First Nation), Rose Atwin (Pilick/Kingsclear First Nation), Gina (Jeanna) Polchies (Woodstock First Nation), Bob Nash (Gagetown), Noel Francis Junior with Kathleen Francis (Madawaska Maliseet First Nation), Elizabeth Paul (Welmooktuk/Oromocto First Nation), Charlie Bear (Neqotkuk/ Tobique First Nation), Pat Sacobie (Welmooktuk/Oromocto First Nation), Pious and the late Harriet Perley (Neqotkuk/Tobique First Nation), John Arnold Sacobie (Pilick / Kingsclear), the late Norman Sacobie and Jeanette Sacobie (Welmooktuk/Oromocto First Nation), Gloria Nash

iii KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

(Gagetown), Maurice /Rita Perley (Neqotkuk/Tobique First Nation), Charles Polchies (Woodstock First Nation), Maurice Sacobie (Neqotkuk/Tobique First Nation), Royden Sabattis (Pilick/Kingsclear First Nation), Fred Tomah (Houlton, ). Beaver Nash and Shirley Nash of Gagetown, who provided their histories but because of the poor audio quality of their tapes we were unable to transcribe them. Special thanks to the following individuals who helped with Wolastoqiyik translations; the late Christina Saulis, Gwen Bear, Imelda Perley, Robert Leavitt, and Barb Nicholas, and individuals who helped with transcription and initial editing, Alice Paul, Amanda Howlett, and Crystall Joscak. Professional archaeologists, anthropologists and geomorphologists also came to the site to provide support and information, including David Sanger, Bruce Stewart, Alan Seaman, Jim Petersen, Robert Ferguson, Bruce Bourque, David Black, Steve Cox, Brent Murphy, Anna de Aguayo, and especially Chris Turnbull, David Keenlyside and Patricia Allen. After the project was officially completed, we continued the analysis. Archaeology Branch found research money whenever it could to enable this process, but a considerable amount of free time and labour were provided by Jason Jeandron, Pam Dickinson, Cynthia Adams and Susan Blair, who independently continued this research whenever they could. Some of this research was supported by academic and educational institutions, and the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada, and the New Brunswick Women’s Doctoral Fellowship program supplied fellowship grants to Susan Blair. Furthermore, the personal and professional support was provided by the University of Toronto, especially by Drs. Ted Banning, Max Freisen and Michael Chazan. Local resident who gave freely of their time to visit the site and share their thoughts and recollections, including William Nash, Roy Dykeman, Sonny Thorne and Caroll Thorne, Cheryl Dykeman and Dawn Bremner. Victor Bear loaned us his basket-making tools and Traditional Maliseet Basket Limited loaned us finished baskets for the Ajemseg Interpretive Centre. We would also like to thank the uncounted number of people who chose to come to the site, to talk to us about the work that we were doing, Finally, this document was assembled with financial support from the Grand Lake Meadows Project Management Committee, and we received special assistance from Todd Byers and Kevin Craig, both of the Department of Natural Resources and Energy. We are grateful to the professional staff of Communications New Brunswick who contributed to the final editing and formatting of this report. We would like to thank the following agencies, communities and individuals for providing the illustrations that accompany this document; The University of New Brunswick Archives, the Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, the New Brunswick Museum, the Canadian Museum of Civilization, the Public Archives of Canada, the University of Pennsylvania, the Houlton Band of , Charles Solomon Sr., Kathleen Francis, Shirley Sacobie, Edith Paul, Patricia Allen and Karen Perley.

iv Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Contents

1. Introduction KAREN PERLEY (NEQOTKUK/TOBIQUE FIRST NATION, AND ARCHAEOLOGICAL SERVICES UNIT, CULTURE AND SPORT SECRETARIAT) ...... 1

2. I remember a long time ago TINA BROOKS, PAT LAPORTE, AND JOSEPHINE PAUL SITANSISK/ST. MARY’S FIRST NATION...... 17

3. Money off the Indians RICHARD POLCHIES JUNIOR SITANSISK/ST. MARY’S FIRST NATION...... 33

4. Sliced apples on a thread THERESA SACOBIE PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION ...... 55

5. We lived on the river RONALD PAUL SITANSISK/ST. MARY’S FIRST NATION...... 71

6. Leaving the seeds for next year CHARLES SOLOMON SR. PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION ...... 93

7. Big catch ROSE ATWIN PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION ...... 119

8. Kincemossuwin (King Time) GINA (JEANNA) POLCHIES WOODSTOCK FIRST NATION ...... 133

v KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

9. Wintertime trading BOB NASH GAGETOWN ...... 145

10. Digging holes in the brooks NOEL FRANCIS JUNIOR WITH KATHLEEN FRANCIS MADAWASKA MALISEET FIRST NATION ...... 159

11. Goddamn army trucks ELIZABETH PAUL WELMOOKTUK/OROMOCTO FIRST NATION ...... 167

12. Indian Agent CHARLIE BEAR NEQOTKUK/ TOBIQUE FIRST NATION...... 181

13. Enough for winter PAT SACOBIE WELMOOKTUK/OROMOCTO FIRST NATION ...... 193

14. Old time fiddling music PIOUS AND HARRIET PERLEY NEQOTKUK/TOBIQUE FIRST NATION...... 203

15. Cimsahna – lets go gather firewood JOHN ARNOLD SACOBIE PILICK / KINGSCLEAR ...... 219

16. Baskets at Gilbert’s Island NORMAN AND JEANETTE SACOBIE WELMOOKTUK/OROMOCTO FIRST NATION ...... 233

17. Living off the earth GLORIA NASH GAGETOWN ...... 249

vi Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

18. There used to be islands here MAURICE /RITA PERLEY NEQOTKUK/TOBIQUE FIRST NATION...... 251

19. People galore CHARLES POLCHIES WOODSTOCK FIRST NATION ...... 257

20. Skicinuwey - belonging to an Indian MAURICE SACOBIE NEQOTKUK/TOBIQUE FIRST NATION...... 267

21. That man ROYDEN SABATTIS PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION ...... 271

22. The Snowshoe Makers FRED TOMAH HOULTON, MAINE ...... 285

vii KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

viii Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Forward: The Road to Jemseg

CHRISTOPHER J. TURNBULL

The in central New new highway. Although heritage impact Brunswick sustains the Wolastoqiyik, and it assessments for environmentally regulated has served as a transportation route for projects have a comparatively brief history generations of their ancestors. It is ironic in New Brunswick, this was the first time that the current need for a safe and efficient that they had led to the mitigation of a four-lane highway should jeopardize an major archaeological site. The crossing ancient place along the same river. But New place of the new highway had been fixed Brunswick’s Environmental Impact through the previous construction of Assessment process identified the need for highway segments in the Jemseg area, so remedial action to balance our society’s salvage of information from the site offered present desire for a modern transportation the only cost effective option to prevent its system with our society’s need to be total destruction. respectful of the Wolastoqiyik legacy. Thus However, the excavation of Aboriginal it was that we undertook an archaeological archaeological sites impinges upon on- excavation in 1996 and 1997 on the spot going discord between Canada (and New where the proposed Fredericton to Moncton Brunswick) and indigenous societies. In the Four Lane Highway crossed the Jemseg case of the Jemseg Crossing site, the River. Wolastoqiyik peoples (more commonly The Jemseg Crossing Archaeological known by their Mi’kmaq-derived name of Project had many different dimensions. It ‘Maliseet’) are the descendants of concern. was certainly an archaeological excavation While archaeology does not normally play a to rescue information about New prominent role in these struggles, the Brunswick’s past before construction of the circumstance of the excavation quickly

ix KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories brought the site into this realm. attempts at consultations, this agreement Contemporary Canadian society is supported the continuation of the divided by the history of relationships excavation with the provision that impact between indigenous and non-indigenous would cease if evidence of burials were society. These relationships are tainted by found. This support was predicated on the prejudice and bigotry. Canada has yet to notion that the highway would have to be deal satisfactorily with the results of re-routed around a site containing burials. European immigration. In the Maritime The essence of archaeology is discovery Province, land ownership has not yet been of the unknown. The finding of a burial-like ceded by treaty, and this fundamental of feature in the midst of an ancient settlement relationship over land affects Aboriginal was enough to halt the excavations and re- perspectives of Canada. So when an locate the highway away from the site. It ancestral Wolastoqiyik site is threatened was only at this point that a new with disturbance, it becomes a part of this relationship between the Wolastoqiyik First on-going disagreement. Nation and Province of New Brunswick Those who have practiced archaeology began. It is one thing to make a promise are not without blame. We intruded into and but it is yet another to honour it with these struggles with narrowly focused all the consequences. To the Province’s ever- academic eyes. Archaeologist have been lasting credit, it did so in the Spring of 1997. reluctant or, at least, slow to recognize the The slight jog in the four-lane highway role that the Wolastoqiyik of today must bridge at Jemseg River was a turning point play in any excavation of their history. in the relationship between the Province Several incidents during the previous and the Wolastoqiyik community– at least quarter century brought engaged with regards to archaeology. archaeology in the larger struggle between The Jemseg Crossing Archaeological indigenous societies and Canada, Project has achieved some notable results. compounding the situation. This recent The excavation was the largest to date on history came to a head at Jemseg. any Aboriginal site in . The All of this led to a series of protests and site contained a major ancestral demonstrations over the course of the fall Wolastoqiyik settlement dating to between and winter of 1996 and 1997. Although 2000 and 3000 years ago. There is also these were created by history, they were evidence on the site stretching back to more fueled by the media. However, through than 6000 years ago, and continuing to the negotiations, and with the full support of twentieth century. As a part of the project, the Fredericton to Moncton Highway many spoken histories and recent stories Project, Department of Transportation, an were recorded from the Wolastoqiyik accord was reached with the Chiefs of a Community. majority of Wolastoqiyik communities in The project has also set the tone for an New Brunswick. Despite some misdirected increasingly constructive relationship

x Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 between the Province of New Brunswick Wolastoqiyik culture, so save if for future and the Wolastoqiyik community. To avoid generations, and ensure that it should this very situation, both communities have become a tangible asset to both agreed to meet together regularly to communities. cooperate on the management of heritage These volumes are filled with resources through the Maliseet Advisory Wolastoqiyik stories, both recent and Committee on Archaeology. Both archaeological; it is a testament to the communities are dedicated to working power of working together to find better together to expand this historic committee ways of living together respectfully. beyond a talking place, and to develop a better understanding through cultural Chris Turnbull development. The committee has produced Keswick Ridge, NB a major travelling exhibition based on November 25, 2002 historic Wolastoqiyik photographs, several posters, and caused Gabe Acquin—a nineteenth century leader—to be recognized as Nationally Significant person in Canadian history. The committee is currently working to develop a Wolastoqiyik web site as a place to gather and disseminate information about

xi KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

xii Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

1. Introduction

Karen Perley (Neqotkuk/Tobique First Nation, and Archaeological Services Unit, Culture and Sport Secretariat)

A collection of audio taped memories of community projects, in most cases this Wolastoqiyik were compiled during the information is community-specific. The Jemseg Crossing Archaeological Project scope of the spoken history project had to (JCAP) to record First Nations connection to reflect the scale of JCAP, and the result is the site as a counterpart to archaeological this collections of memories and experi- interpretations. The management team, ences of Elders from all parts of the myself, Susan Blair (project archaeologist), , transcending community Patrick Polchies (project manager), and Dr. boundaries and weaving together an entire Christopher Turnbull (manager of Archaeo- cultural group. logical Services Unit), supported by the The Jemseg Wolastoqiyik Spoken Maliseet Advisory Committee on Archaeol- History component of JCAP focused specifi- ogy were united in their wish to include the cally on life experiences of Maliseet Elders. stories of Wolastoqiyik in the project, so that They talked to us of their lives, from child- we could incorporate many different hood to the present, and the lives of their perspectives on the distant past, the recent parents and grandparents. In some cases, past and the present of the cultural land- this represents a time span of 130 years. scape of the Jemseg area. These histories are These histories are a testimony to a testament to the strong link Wolastoqiyik Wolastoqiyik’s continued relationship with have to the Saint John River Valley. the river and the land. They reveal their This effort has been historic. While cultural, social and economic interactions there have been spoken history projects with each other and with non-Aboriginal undertaken for individual First Nation individuals and communities. They demon-

1 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories strate the contributions of these Elders to ‘language speaker’, was hired to make the the Wolastoq’kew culture, economy and initial contact with Elders from the six events. Finally, they document the changes Wolastoqiyik communities, make appoint- wrought upon their lives by the colonial ments, carry out and record the interviews Government, and their ongoing resistance and transcribe the resulting tape. to its influences. Potential Wolastoqiyik interviewees In this volume, Wolastoqiyik terms are were contacted by telephone. These were used as much as possible. The use of followed up by home visits with a more original, natural names for places identify detailed description of the project’s purpose their purposes and contributions to the and goal. The Elder’s comfort level was survival of the people. For example, the St. assessed by carefully listening to the tone of John River is Wolastoq. This term names, their voices during conversation. If there but also describes “the beautiful river”. The was any hint of hesitancy, then there was a name Wolastoq describes the river’s physi- call back. cal characteristics, it’s spirit, as well as the In some cases, visits to the homes were resources it provides for the people. We call made more than once to accommodate the the people of the Wolastoq, Wolastoqiyik or schedule of the Elder who might cancel “people of the beautiful river”, avoiding the because of unexpected family or personal more common but inaccurate term commitments. In most cases refreshments `Maliseet’. were offered and gladly accepted. Methodology Mrs. Paul began her interviews in From the setting of goals to the devel- February 1997. During this time, she began opment of methodology, the Jemseg to travel to Wolastoqiyik First Nation Wolastoqiyik Spoken History component of communities. The Elders were encouraged JCAP was guided by the management team. to speak the language in which they were We attempted to make this process produc- the most comfortable. Their ages ranged tive, but more importantly, comfortable and from late fifties to late seventies and were relaxing for the Elders. In this part of the selected at random or upon suggestions of report, I will discuss these methods, with a others in the communities. Elders from each section where I will address concerns that Wolastoq’kew community were inter- Elders had in relation to being interviewed viewed. Although most were from “on and introduce the concept “Weci reserve” (Department of Indian Affairs Apaciawik” or “so it will come back. terminology), we interviewed Elders that The interview process was informal and live “off reserve” as well. yet oriented towards the main objective of Mrs Paul encouraged them to talk in the spoken history component - to inter- general about their life experiences, birth- view as many Elders as time would allow. place, and parent’s occupation, their occu- Alice Paul from Sitansisk/St. Mary’s, a pation, childhood and educational back- ground. There were no structured question-

2 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 naires but if the interviewee became quiet interviewed at least once in their lifetime by then specific questions would be asked to academics/researchers(Aboriginal and non- keep the interview process flowing. These Aboriginal) for either small community included questions relating to lifestyles, based projects or larger projects involving spirituality and ceremonies (Traditional and outside institutions. For this reason, a Christian), places, recreational activities, number of Wolastoq’kew Elders were and traditional medicines and their uses. apprehensive when asked to be interviewed Twenty-three Elders were interviewed for the Spoken History component of the and recorded but only twenty-one tapes Jemseg Archaeological Project. Their con- were transcribed. The tapes of three inter- cern centered around the intentions the views were of very poor audio quality, but project had for their stories. Some Elders only one Elder was re-interviewed. Unfor- refused for two reasons. They or other tunately, the other two were from community members experienced being Gagetown, New Brunswick. These were not interviewed in the past without ever know- re-taped because of time restraints. ing what happened to their information, The Wolastoq’kew language was used along with, past practices where the infor- occasionally by the Elders in the majority of mation became known as the property of the tapes, but there were two tapes where the academic/researcher or their institution. the language was used in the greater part of The pursuit for First Nations knowl- the interview. edge will undoubtedly continue in the Choice of reference for translation and future because of the rising interest in spelling of words was based on the avail- understanding the past, as well as, the ability of material and a writing system on realization made by academics/researchers the Wolastoq’kew language. Translations that First Nations knowledge and their were provided using two sources, the interpretation is necessary to complete the “Kolusuwakonal”, Philip LeSourd’s diction- study of that past. ary, edited and revised by Robert M. Levitt, For this reason, safeguards need to be University of New Brunswick and David A. put in place. The responsibility falls on the Francis, and the “/Maliseet First Nations community supported by Reference Book”produced by other Governments, institutions and agen- Passamaquoddy/Maliseet Bilingual Pro- cies to erase the mistrust felt by Elders by gram. At times, translations were difficult discouraging these practices to take place. because of the unique character of the This can be achieved by implementing language and some minor variance among a “weci apaciawik” or “so it will come each Wolastoq’kew community. back” policy whereby First Nations could “Weci Apaciawik” or “So it will develop protocols for non-Aboriginal and come back” Aboriginal researchers to follow before they approach our Elders and communities. This Most Aboriginal Elders have been policy would guarantee that there is a “give

3 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories back” to the community for the informa- so eventually “weci apaciyawik” will tion. become an established process which will The policy could include a permit or raise the level of comfort of our Elders licensing system outlining procedures to whose stories and experiences will increase follow for activities associated with the the level of Wolastoq’kew knowledge. collection of cultural resources. Direct Brief Profiles of the Wolastoqiyik benefits for the community could be one of Communities the requirements included in the procedure. All parts of the Wolastoq were tradi- This could involve a process where propos- tionally occupied by Wolastoqiyik, and als are reviewed by a small committee who there are still Wolastoqiyik and their com- would monitor and facilitate the project. As munities distributed up and down the river. well as, hold discussions with the aca- All communities still have ties to Jemseg, demic/researcher to determine what and this connection is confirmed and held service or product is reasonable for them to by the memories of the Elders, as well as, “give back” to the community. supported by the archaeological results by Because most research projects are Susan Blair in Volume 2. These memories sponsored by funding agencies or grants, not only illuminate connections to Jemseg this process could become a financial itself but weave together all areas along the burden for the First Nations community or Wolastoq into a rich cultural tapestry. the researcher. In this case, I would suggest I will describe the modern that these costs be identified in the planning Wolastoq’kew communities, in part to phase of the projects when individuals or demonstrate that there are still institutions are applying to funding Wolastoqiyik, and their communities sources. Cooperation from funding agencies distributed up and down the Wolastoq. and key players will be necessary to ensure Wolastoqiyik are not only people of the past the success of this concept. but also the present. The data for these However, there have been successes in profiles was gathered in 1997 and will promoting “weci apaciyawik” in spite of the include the names for each community, fact of its “idea only” status. This concept location, the date it was established, its had it’s beginning during the Jemseg Cross- political affiliates and population. ing Archaeology Project but spilled over to New Brunswick has six Wolastoq’kew the post Jemseg period due to commitments First Nation communities established as from individuals, especially, researchers such “reserves” by the Federal Government in as archaeologist Susan Blair and archaeolo- the 1800’s. There are, however, thousands of gist/administrator Dr. Christopher Turnbull. sites all along the St. John River Valley (Susan discusses her contributions in Vol- where the Ancestors of the present day ume 2 and Chris in the “Forward” of both Wolastoqiyik lived and died. The St. John Volumes 1 and 2). River Valley is not the only area or territory Hopefully, others will follow their lead that Wolastoqiyik were a part of, but will be 4 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 the only area that is discussed in this report. there have been three all Maliseet Chiefs The six Wolastoq’kew First Nations meetings called to discuss specific issues. consist of (from north to south along the The first modern Wolastoqiyik National Wolastoq) Madawaska Maliseet First Congress has yet to take place to tackle all Nation, Neqotkuk /Tobique First Nation, issues specific to Wolastoqiyik and their Woodstock First Nation, Pilick /Kingsclear territory. There is, however, a joint First Nation, Sitansisk /St. Mary’s First Wolastoqiyik and Province of New Bruns- Nation and Welmooktuk /Oromocto First wick committee which is focused on ar- Nation. Other Wolastoq’kew communities, chaeological issues. This committee, the such as the Maliseet of Viger at Cacouna, Maliseet Advisory Committee on Archaeol- are located in and in Maine at ogy, was formed as a direct result of the Houlton. In addition, Gagetown, in south- Jemseg Crossing Archaeology Project and ern New Brunswick, quite near to Jemseg will be discussed after the profiles. has a sizeable Wolastoqiyik population. Madawaska Maliseet First Nation was These First Nations are members of a established prior to 1867 and is located in number of political organizations. At a Northern New Brunswick in close proxim- national level, these include the Assembly of ity to the Province of Quebec and the State First Nations, which is made up of Chiefs of Maine. It is approximately 1.6 km east of from all across Canada. At a regional level, on Highway 144 and is the Atlantic Policy Congress encompasses a accessible from the TransCanada Highway. body of Chiefs from the Atlantic Provinces. The community is located approximately The provincially based Union of New 300 km north of Fredericton. Brunswick Indians, represents both Madawaska Maliseet is a political Wolastoqiyik and Mi’kmaq First Nations. affiliate of the Assembly of First Nations, The Mawiw Council is composed of the Union of New Brunswick Indians, Atlantic three biggest First Nations in New Bruns- Policy Congress and the Saint John River wick, and includes both Wolastoqiyik and Valley Tribal Council. A Chief and two Mi’kmaq First Nations. The Saint John River Councillors make up the leadership for the Tribal Council also represents both community which has a total population of Wolastoqiyik and Mi’kmaq First Nations. 213 people of which 101 live “On-Reserve” Other groups in which aboriginal individu- and 112 live “Off-Reserve”.1 als could be members include the New Neqotkuk /Tobique First Nation is the Brunswick Native Women’s Council, the biggest Maliseet First Nation Community in New Brunswick Native Friendship Centre, New Brunswick, with a total population of and the Aboriginal People’s Council. As yet, 1643 people with 1047 living “On-Reserve” there is no modern, exclusively Wolastoqiyik and 396 living “Off-Reserve”.2 A Chief and political or cultural organizations, however, 12 Councillors make up the leadership in

1, 2 Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, B. A. Cleveland, Data and System Analyst.

5 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories this community located in northern New First Nations, Atlantic Policy Congress and Brunswick, 27 km south of Grand Falls, the Union of New Brunswick Indians. approximately 200 km north of Fredericton, Sitansisk /St. Mary’s First Nation is 9.6 km from Perth-Andover and approxi- situated adjacent to the city of Fredericton. mately 18 km from the border of Maine. It was founded by Gabriel Acquin in 1867. Neqotkuk/Tobique was established in Total population is 1080 people with 650 1801. It is a member of the Assembly of First living “On-Reserve” and 430 living “Off- Nations, Mawiw Tribal Council and the Reserve”.5 A Chief and eleven Councillors Atlantic Policy Congress. make up the political authority at Sitansisk, Woodstock First Nation was estab- which is a member of the Assembly of First lished in 1851. It is located 5 km south of Nations, Union of New Brunswick Indians the town of Woodstock and has a total and the Atlantic Policy Congress. population of 696 with 227 living “On- Welmooktuk /Oromocto First Nation is Reserve” and 469 living “Off- Reserve”.3 located within the town limits of Oromocto, Woodstock’s political leaders includes a 20 km south of Fredericton. Oromocto is the Chief and six Councillors and has land home to the largest military training base in mass totalling 92.4 hectares. This First the British Commonwealth, Canada Forces Nation community is the location of the Base Gagetown. Welmooktuk has 29.8 main office of the Saint John River Valley Hectares of land for a total population of Tribal Council which services one Mi’kmaq 412 people with 172 residing “On-Reserve” and three Maliseet First Nations in the area and 240 residing “Off-Reserve”.6 of Band Government, Financial, Economic Welmooktuk was established in 1895. A Development, Community Planning and Chief and four Councillors currently man- Technical Services. These are the five basic age the administration of programs and services provided through Tribal Councils, provide full-time employment to fifteen but not necessarily the only ones (Eric Paul, individuals, and seasonal employment to Director, personal communication). another twenty. Pilick /Kingsclear First Nation is Political affiliates for Welmooktuk are located 14.4 km west of Fredericton and the Assembly of First Nations, the Atlantic was established in 1814. This community Policy Congress, the Union of New Bruns- has 374.7 Hectares of land and a total wick Indians and the Saint John River population of 714 people, with 521 living Valley Tribal Council. “On-Reserve” and 193 living “Off-Re- Maliseet Advisory Committee on 4 serve”. A Chief and six Councillors provide Archaeology the leadership for the community. The Jemseg Maliseet Advisory Commit- “Pilick” means “the village”. Kingsclear tee, presently the Maliseet Advisory Com- is a political affiliate of the Assembly of

3, 4, 5, 6 Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, B. A. Cleveland, Data and System Analyst.

6 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 mittee on Archaeology, was established in working group is still active. Presently the the summer of 1996. Dr. Christopher work of the Maliseet Advisory Committee Turnbull, then Director of the Archaeologi- on Archaeology (MACA) is supported by cal Services Branch of the Department of the Archaeological Services Unit of the New Municipalities, Culture and Housing, Brunswick Culture and Sport Secretariat. proposed involving the Maliseet commu- Representatives from that agency work nity in facilitating the Jemseg Crossing with Chief appointed representatives from Archaeological Project. The Committee each of the six Maliseet communities. would provide a forum for discussions MACA is central to the continuation of regarding the Jemseg Project, guide the dialogue between Archaeological Services consultation process, ensure the Maliseet and the Wolastoqiyik communities. MACA community was informed, encourage meets on a regular basis and discusses educational use of the Project and partici- matters of archaeological concern. Through pate in the decision making process involv- MACA several successful projects promot- ing a major archaeological excavation. ing Wolastoqiyik culture have been accom- The initial Jemseg Maliseet Advisory plished. Committee consisted of representatives Why Include Spoken Histories? from each of the six Maliseet communities, Spoken Histories are important for representatives from the New Brunswick many reasons. Information about Departments of Transportation, Education, Wolastoq’kew culture is stored in the and Municipalities, Culture and Housing, language. The traditional process of passing and, a representative from Canadian Mu- on history is through the spoken word. seum of Civilization. At the Committee’s Elders store information in their memories first meeting a decision was made to hold as opposed to writing them down. For that future meetings in First Nation communi- reason, life experiences and memories of ties to increase the opportunity for flow of the Elders do not get documented and there information to community members. is very little information written on Although supported by most Maliseets, Wolastoq’kew culture. The limited informa- the formation of a Committee without tion that has been written is often based on involving the elected Maliseet leadership historical sources such as the journals of led to a temporary disbanding of the first early explorers, missionary accounts and group. Following consultations and presen- non-native scholars. These writings are tations to the Maliseet Chiefs, a new Com- often rife with cultural misconceptions and mittee was struck. The new Committee had stereotypes. the support of the majority of Chiefs. Shirley Bear, from Neqotkuk /Tobique Surprisingly, the membership on this is one of my teachers. She has taught me revised Committee was, with one excep- that we always possessed this knowledge. tion, identical to that of the original group! She refers to it as “ancient memories” and it Seven years after it’s inception, this

7 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories is through words, songs, dreams and taped over again and she conveyed the ceremonies that these teachings are trans- same story in the exact same way by using mitted. ritualized speech or “rote”. These are aural Another important point for readers to memories (Sara Kennedy, N.B. Choral keep in mind is that certain Wolastoq’kew Federation, personal communication). This words are truly difficult to translate. Some can be compared to singing a song where words have double meanings. Others have the pitch varies from high to low. It’s likely true, ancient meanings that can only be that this practice is a very effective method understood by a speaker of the language. for remembering personal experiences and As an example, the word leyu. It means “it recapturing the “feeling” at the time. In her is true” and it also means “way it is/was”. case it was excitement and at the same time In the Wolastoq’kew language, the two are shock that such thoughtless treatment could not separate. Still another example is the take place towards people. Regretfully, this word that addresses “she/he”. There is no is the only example I can give at this time such word. Pronouns are hidden in all because hers was the only story that was re- verbs and are not gender specific. The taped words like yat (she/he), not (she/he), What the Spoken Histories Tell us nekom (her/him) in all grammatical tenses — The Elders Speak are used to address both genders. A person The Elders stories give us their accounts mentioned in conversation is addressed by of teachings they have received, personal using their name and not referred to as experiences and thoughts about events in “she/he”. The word yat is used by a second their lives and for some, their parents and speaker when referring to a person, of grandparents lives. These stories will either gender, who is within sight of the present a better picture of the people and speaker. It gives an indication of an equal their surroundings, and raise some con- level of worth for both genders. sciousness about the value that these While listening to one tape, I noticed histories hold. These are pieces of the that there was a systematized method used puzzle. They give us some insight and by the Elder to either help her remember understanding about a very important part the story or quite possibly resulted from her of Wolastoqiyik’s recent history in a way reliving the event over again while repeat- that the written record cannot. ing the story. The information received from these When Elizabeth Paul, of Welmooktuk histories help strengthen and clarify the (Oromocto was first interviewed, the audio connection of Wolastoqiyik with the Saint on the tape was poor. On this tape she John River Valley. Even the traditional talked about her experiences of being names given by our Ancestors to specific moved from Welmooktuk (Oromocto) to places or sites strengthens and illustrates Pilick (Kingsclear) and how people were our connection to them. Traditional names collected in army trucks. The interview was

8 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 describe where the place is situated in away from there I was awful young, that was how many relation to a body of water or what needs years ago? When we were the place provides for the people. Some- moved from Oromocto? It was times these names describe where “many forty-seven years ago when we favourable conditions for a camp site came were moved. Government men from Ottawa came and together… a good game country, good eel cheated/lied to the Indians; grounds, the end of a portage, an intervale everything they were told, flat capable of easy cultivation, a good never happened when they spring..”7 Neqotkuk (Tobique) can be were moved to Pilick, well at first the way they lied to the translated to mean “under current caused Indians was when you move to by the force of two rivers meeting”, refer- Pilick your houses will be ready ring to meeting of the Saint John and the to move in, they will be all Tobique. Jemseg or Ajemseg which means finished and there is a big farm down the hill with lots of cows “gathering place”, a place where people and chickens, there are five gathered drift wood, food and medicines, hundred head of cattle for you and where people grouped together to and same time five hundred trade and socialize. Eqpahak, located at the head of goats and each family will have five hundred head upper margin of the Saint John estuary, chickens and there weren’t any means “end of tide”. As these examples chickens up there.(Royden show, the spoken histories provide an Sabattis) excellent opportunity for research by Elizabeth Paul from Welmooktuk/ supplying raw data to the reader by way of Oromocto remembers: names of places, making evident the con- But that time they moved us to nection the people have with these places. Kingsclear in 1947. Goddamn Army trucks. Stories from the Jemseg Project gives Army trucks were going around the reserve and they said come on you’re moving... the reader the opportunity to associate, you’re moving up Kingsclear. actual events in the First Nations history of And after they were moved to Pilick, the Saint John River Valley, with Elders that she talks about what could have happened experienced them. if the Government’s plan had succeeded in Government Men and Indian Agents taking land from Welmooktuk to extend the The histories document their experi- Gagetown Army base: … they got those houses up ences with Government’s plan to centralize there, if any one of these Wolastoqiyik by attempting to move people families stayed here, if they from Welmooktuk (Oromocto) to Pilick would have moved we would (Kingsclear). have lost all this land because Well, when we moved the army was speaking about

7 W. D. Hamilton and W. A. Spray, Source Materials Relating to New Brunswick Indians, p. 4

9 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

this reserve and they were Pilick… whatever he planted in going to take over it. See, them the spring, potatoes, oats, days there was Ben’s father, turnips everything and cut John Brooks and John Sacobie, pulp wood in the woods. Every them was the ones, that didn’t night we would load on all this move, but if all them families stuff until about twelve o’clock moved up Kingsclear we’d lose at night for him to go sell… we everything. We would be up were the only ones hired on Kingsclear right now. There and Indians use to get clothes was nothing they can do they from the Mounties a whole couldn’t force them, they didn’t truck load, shoes and we would want to move, they stayed right haul them here and put it in the here. Ben’s father moved up for grain shed so he would pick the awhile he didn’t last for two best clothes and whatever was weeks then he moved back. left over he would give to the The Indian agent was a representative Indians and he would go sell the good stuff. Even blankets, of the Colonial government for the manage- white sheets, pillow cases and ment and control of the Maliseet people. the real good stuff, and shoes, His dishonesty and greed resulted in we would go with him to the poverty within the communities. lumber camps to sell the stuff and he would keep the money Mr. Polchies: himself.” (Royden Sabattis) Whalen thrived off the Indians he made money off of He goes on to say: the Indians. He was an ex He cheated the Indians, not RCMP officer and he retired a just one but all. Remember millionaire and all the goods when some got an army and services that were pension? He use to keep that provided to the Indians along for them or when a small kid the St. John River went to his got milk, it was given to the personal gain….(Richard Agent for the kid, but the Agent Polchies) did not give the milk to the kid, I don’t know what he did with An individual from Kingsclear: the milk, I think he sold it. I It was that agent by the know when he raised cows, name of Edward Whalen and twenty head of jersey’s all he lived right here on Indian jerseys, my wife’s father use to land, he had a big house over work for the Agent, he use to there a little ways from here. milk the cows by hand every Where we live now, there use to morning, this guy would pick be an old road, in front of our up cream cans of milk. The house. The agent lived close by, Agent was the one that would he use to run everything and he take the money. Whatever he had everything too. He had sold that belonged to the cattle, horses, pigs, cows and Indians, he would pocket the chickens. He was suppose to money. He did not give a cent give this to the Indians, but he to the Indian. didn’t and it was that man he was starving the Indians here at One Elder when asked if he remem-

10 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 bered the Indian Agent said: traditional beliefs against “evil”; only the Yes, in Kingsclear… the power of the church and its doctrine can devil. (Pat Sacobie) overcome evil. Same Devil, different name! There are One Elder tells about a story that was similar experiences up river in Tobique. told to him: Norval Hartt MacPhail was the Super- ...one night when we were intendent Tobique Indian Agency, with an all dancing, in walks Sakomawi office located in Perth, N.B. He was super- Wehnoch [stranger]. He was dressed so nice, and his violin intendent from 1928-1958 (A History of the was so shiny. When he started Maliseets of the Tobique Indian Reservation to play, you didn’t even know Saint John River - Address delivered to the what he was playing, because Perth-Andover Historical Society January he was so skilful with the violin. But there was this other 30, 1961). older woman, she said, Molly An Elder says: look at his feet. One of his legs MacPhail, Norval is a horse’s leg. He is not a MacPhail. He was the devil person, he is the devil. Well, I’ll man, that one.(Maurice Perley) go get the priest. When the Another Tobique elder agrees priest got there, he saw the …the Indian Agent up stranger and he went to get town and his name was Norval holy water and sprinkled it on MacPhail. He was bad. Tough the stranger. And he went right to get anything from. He let through the floor. The priest you cut lumber, but he said, you play music too much wouldn’t give you the full every night. You finally amount. You always had to beckoned the devil, you have to trade it for material, like for stop playing music. (John electric wiring or for insulation Arnold Sacobie) or windows for your house. …and another night, they Because he owned a hardware were playing—I guess, yes, store at the time. (Charles Bear) they did play cards. All of a There are similar experiences as ex- sudden—somebody was sliding with a toboggan most of pressed by Ida Paul, Lilly Laporte and the night, at this place called Jaunita Perley of Tobique in the publication Elomakqek. That’s what “Enough is Enough” Aboriginal Women Elizabeth use to call it. A spirit Speak Out as told to Janet Silman. and they didn’t see it anywhere. So they stopped Stories Influenced by Christianity playing cards and it never happened again. (John Arnold The spoken histories also reflect the Sacobie) widespread influence Christianity had over …They agreed that there the people’s traditional stories and their should be a dance, so every relationship to the spiritual. Many histories night there was a dance. There use to be a hall down the hill, contain the theme of the powerlessness of further down from the church.

11 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

They started playing music, happened to people when they played and again a stranger walked in cards: and he started to play too. They allowed him to play. Charles Polchies from Woodstock tells a And again a man said, look story his father told him about how people at that stranger’s feet. This is a would go into the woods and stay almost different being. They couldn’t all winter. He says: tell what his one leg looked ...they wanted to play like, because it was all hairy. poker [and] one of the elder They said someone better get a gentlemen said hey, we Motewolon. So they went to get shouldn’t play cards, it’s Wey, because he was a thundering and lightening, we Motewolon down there. But his should stop”. “A knock came at power wasn’t strong enough. the door of the old camp, in Well then they said, let’s get a walked a gentleman dressed up priest. So they got a priest, the like a.. it would be unusual priest smeared something on being in a dense wood and all his throat. And all they heard of a sudden a guy comes in all was bells. And sure enough, he dressed up, top hat” and he went right through the floor. goes on to say “this The priest said, you are playing sophisticated gentleman, one of cards too much. (John Arnold his legs was a hoof of a horse so Sacobie) when he saw that he just Theresa Sacobie, Pilick (Kingsclear) tells freaked. about how much the people loved to dance There have been similar stories re- and how the priest tried to discourage it; peated in First Nations communities and One time they couldn’t get was an attempt by the church to discredit into the hall, the priest had locked the hall with a padlock”, and discourage First Nations connection to and they asked a young man to the Spiritual. “The Indian Act provides that go through a small opening, all Indian Day schools be operated under “this person came in all dressed the supervision of the church” (MacPhail). up in a black tuxedo style and he kept going around and Priests had total control over the somebody noticed that one leg education of the children which gave them was a horses hoof, and they all the opportunity to condition them at a very screamed and this devil or early age. This no doubt was the origin of whoever, went through the wall” and she goes on to say the “devil stories” to frighten the people that this happened because into believing the strength of Christianity. “they were told not to”. According to Theresa, “they Technology were that scared, and I don’t In addition to the influence of Christi- think my father ever played the anity, the Elder’s stories describe First fiddle again. Nations technologies and their knowledge Many of these histories reflect unpleas- of the material used. I will list but a few of ant and unexplained occurrences that

12 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 them below. snowshoes. It’s done the same way as a handle for a basket or Fred Tomah from Houlton, Maine talks a rim. in great detail about the appropriate Because when the shoes strength of materials used in basket making gets cold in the wintertime… If which he learned from Jim and Aubrey it’s really cold like subzero, then the nose of that shoe will Tomah: crack, break on you when it’s …the reason they are not done right… telling me this is because of the … the modern ones are nature of the handles and the sawed out stuff and put it rims and the basket wood. To through a steamer… As far as make the basket itself, it making that, it would freeze. requires a different growth for each one. For example: thin This also includes differences in the grain wood, you couldn’t use it webbing of snowshoes between for weavers of any large basket. Wolastoqiyik and Mi’kmaq: But it would be a choice of Yes, that’s another thing wood for rims, because thin about us that we were known growth on a tree will allow you to make. We were known as to bend it with relative ease snowshoe makers, this tribe, without snapping it… real thick the Maliseets [Wolastoqiyik] grain stuff would be used for were in relation to the others. handles… a thin grain will not And another tribe would, take it. It will take a gradual Micmac (Mi’kmaq), look down arch, but a handle, it won’t, it and know that a Maliseet went will snap. by, because of the webbing. … Ash that grows Very fine webbing, that’s what anywhere near cedar or any Maliseets were known to make. soft woods will be It was even a choice of predominately brittle… webbing. The moose hide, the And basket making tools: underbelly of a young calf was Gauges, horses, things like best to use”. (Fred Tomah) that, ax. Your choice of your Theresa Sacobie from Pilick/Kingsclear tools, you either had to make it or acquire it in some manner. mentions the different weaves: You just didn’t use other …So I showed all the persons tools, it was considered students that he had about unaccepted, it was the lazy fancy work, all the different man’s way of making a basket. weaves… …the thistle weave, But they, of course, they the twist pattern, the rainbow showed me how to make my and the loop design… own tools. And what choice She names the countries to which her wood to use and reason why baskets have been sold. you use it. …I’ve had people here He also shared with us his knowledge from Japan, China, Iraq, Iran, regarding the construction of snowshoes: Australia, almost every …the hoop for the European Country. In the States, right from California to

13 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Maine, Canada, all across These excerpts are only a few examples Canada… of Wolastoqiyik experience. Hunting Techniques and Uses for Animal Pat Sacobie from Welmooktuk (Oromocto) discusses salting fish and Hides methods for drying food. Charles Solomon Ronald Paul from Sitansisk (St. Mary’s) Sr. from Pilick (Kingsclear) discusses describes hunting techniques and uses for medicinal plants and their uses. animal hides: Then I started trapping Contributions to the economy by beavers, muskrats, fox, otters Wolastoqiyik are outlined in most of the and mink. My father and my histories. grandparents and the rest of the Fiddleheads, berries, snowshoes, Indians, they use to work all day to get prepared for the baskets, furs, axe handles provided addi- trapping season. We use to tional products to be added on to the laugh, they’d split up big merchant’s list. Wolastoqiyik provided maples to make toboggans. The skilled labour for the non-Aboriginal runners curl up and the leather was tied on there. They would population in the areas of farming, pulping have to make that within a day. and other industrial employment. Now and then, that thing The Elders reveal more experiences and would slap you in the face. share additional events in their individual Everybody had to get ready for it, prepare for it. This would stories. have been like March weather. Recommendations on the Use of It runs on top of the crust. They’d get the snowshoes Knowledge from Histories made, toboggan then they go It is important that information from chase moose or deer. Deer are the histories be utilized, not stored, once it bad out there. They go through is in the communities, institutions or in the a crust and scrape their shins and the hide would go way up, hands of the researchers. As an example, and you could see the bone. the following list of suggestions for use of And three or four times, they the material could, perhaps, apply to will jump their legs get sore educational institutions: and then they just stand there. So an Indian will come along • stories like the ones concerning the “Little and grab him, knock him over People” could be used to strengthen the head… …it was the pelt spoken tradition skills by developing they were after. With that, they a model for listening and speaking can make snowshoes, hats and gloves. And same with the competency in traditional language; moose, moose hides. They go • changes in the recent past in areas such as out and track moose. Moose employment, political system, hide, they can make moccasins, lifestyles, roles of women, travel winter moccasins they’re heavy, fur lined. patterns, and childhood could be

14 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

examined and used as a comparison Conclusion to the pre-contact and the present The spoken histories reveal the strength living patterns of Wolastoqiyik; of the people’s connection to Jemseg. They • raw data from the histories could be show a broad pattern of similar activities provided to a curriculum that took place throughout the river valley. development specialist to formulate a The histories give the reader a glimpse of language arts, social studies, language Wolastoqiyik lifeways in the areas of skills program, incorporating the subsistence, activities, events and beliefs histories with systems already in surrounding their lives, and their contribu- place; tions to the fabrication of the province of • appropriate information could be New Brunswick. However, these activities extracted and used to devise story provide only a glimpse of the rich tapestries books; of Wolastoqiyik lives. It was never the • artists could depict the community as it intention of the project to present the looked based on dates given or events histories as an all-encompassing picture of that have taken place, such as the the entire culture. We need to conduct 1930’s, the 1940’s, “old Christmas”, further research, and we need to integrate trapping, and dancing; earlier recorded interviews, currently held • house lots, streams and brooks, and by Museums, archives or by individual special sites could be located or researchers. Other pieces such as additional identified by means of cartography archaeological evidence, are needed to and other related document searches; complete the picture. • video images of medicinal plants could be In conclusion, it is hoped that other used to teach the significance of each archaeological projects will include spoken and their connection to the people; histories as an essential and valued compo- • research and language skills could be nent of the project. These provide factual developed by reintroducing information through personal experiences technologies used in the past, such as and complements the project with knowl- birch bark building, snowshoes, edge from people who have a true connec- and fishing and hunting methods; tion to all pre-contact sites. There have these processes could be explained in already been two examples in New Bruns- the language; and wick where archaeologists have used • theatre arts and vocabulary could be histories to verify the location of specific promoted by presenting short plays in sites - the Bernard Site on the Tobique First the Wolastoq’kew language. Nation (Keenlyside pers. comm.) and the Needless to say, these few suggestions, Augustine Mound located on the Red Bank are not limited to educational institutions First Nation (Turnbull 1976). However, but to all establishments that have an JCAP has been the first to develop tran- interest in Wolastoq’kew cultural history.

15 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories scribed spoken histories as a perspective communities, serve as teaching tools, which complementary to archaeological interpre- will build a better understanding of tation. Wolastoqiyik, the People of the Beautiful Finally, I am deeply grateful to Kci River. Wolastoqiyik for sharing their time, exercis- I would like to acknowledge: ing their patience and agreeing to share Kci Nuhkomosik naka Kci Muhsumsik their personal experiences. The intention for Great Grandmothers and Great the spoken history component is so the Grandfathers histories will find their way back into our communities and for non-Aboriginal

16 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

2. I remember a long time ago…

TINA BROOKS, PAT LAPORTE, AND JOSEPHINE PAUL SITANSISK/ST. MARY’S FIRST NATION

“I remember a long time ago. Molly, Anwall, all kinds of Indian camps along the shore, now known as Molly’s Island.” Tina

“Soldiers came back and they had to live in workshops for about ten years. Every workshop was either occupied by families or a veteran.” Pat

“…Father Riley came, gave us a half day. But you had to know your Catechism. You had to learn certain words and he’d ask you. But he didn’t ask the words you had to learn, so he would ask words that you didn’t learn.” Josephine

Alice: Do anyone of you remember was about when Koluskap was in anything about Jemseg, or anyone Fredericton above river, he left his that had lived there? snowshoes there and called them Tina: No [said in Maliseet]. Snowshoe Islands, is that true? Alice: Since we don’t know anything Josephine: I never heard. about Jemseg, let’s go on to St. Tina: I’ve been to Snowshoe Island, but Mary’s, talk a little about how we I don’t know where the name come lived back then. What kind of recrea- from. tion took place for the people, today Alice: Where is Snowshoe Island? from back then. Tina: It use to be up, where they flood Tina: Do we have to talk Indian [said in the... Where is that place where we Maliseet]? use to pick fiddleheads? Alice: You can talk Indian, English or Pat: Bear Island. combine both because it’s all going to Tina: Bear Island, that’s where it was. It be translated anyway. It’s going to be still is there, only they flooded, but used, probably, for the archives. Okay you can see the snowshoe, but I’ve anyone... In fact I was reading a book been on Bear Island. Have you been the other day about Koluskap there? (Glooscap) their legends right and Josephine: Yes one of the things that I was reading Alice: Okay, so lets go with St. Mary’s,

17 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

how things were way back then. I will Josephine: Don’t even know. probably throw in some questions in Alice: Must be about one hundred and there, as you go along. thirty or more, yeah, feel free to jump Tina: You’re older than I am. in at any time [To the two women]. Josephine: Pat you’re the oldest. Josephine: I have to think first [Laugh- Alice: Pat, How about we start with ter]. I was only six at that time when I you? Give us a little history on St. lived down there. Mary’s. Pat: Come on, I’m older than you? Pat: Not much I remember. I was seven Tina: I must have been about six, be- years old when we moved from that cause when my mother died I was six, old reserve [Old St. Mary’s—down because I could just remember. near the water] up to here [St. Mary’s Pat: That was 1933. now]. That was in 1933 and that was Tina: It must be because, it was 1933 during the depression there were when the houses were ready. I think it eighteen houses on this reserve, was about 1935 when we moved up, twelve on this side [Right] and six on or maybe more. I don’t know, be- the other [Left]. Now it’s (pause) cause I remember down the hill [Old

Plate 2.1: Gabe Acquin, believed to be the founder of St. Mary's First Nation community (Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, Old Government House Collection).

18 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Reserve]. Remember Cecilia? Josephine and Tina: Oh yeah. Josephine: Who was it that lived there? Alice: Where did they sell them? Johnny (pause) Pat: Tourists. Tina: Johnny Mike. Josephine and Tina: Market, Bowlen’s Josephine: Their house caught fire, we [Bowlen’s store still exists on St. were living up here. Mary’s Street]. Tina: Yeah, we were first. My father and Pat: Tourists that come from the states mother was where we lived, and to buy baskets. Johnny Mike. Yeah, did they get a Josephine: Yes. house or what? Tina: And when people went picking Josephine: No, your grandmother’s [Probably potato picking]. house, where Bobby Brooks’ house Josephine: I would take two ax handles, was. take them to Bowlen’s store and get a Tina: Oh yeah, [And Josephine] package of tobacco and molasses. Dunstan and your grandfather’s. Tina: Molasses, me too. I had to take Tina: Yes. one handle to Bowlen’s and get Pat: There are only two houses, there molasses. You got a lot of it. and over Louise’s. Josephine: Ah ha. Josephine: Three. Pat: For Bees Beer. Pat: Where’s the other one? Tina: Yes, [To Pat] say it in Indian Josephine: Qumuci’s house. anyway. [Laughter from all three]. Tina and Pat: Oh yeah, Qumuci’s old Alice: So, what else was done back house. then, besides basket making? Pat: Original houses, three. Josephine: Baskets, ax handles, paddles, Tina: Where the road is now is where I hoops, barrel hoops. lived [Maliseet Drive]. They took it Alice: Were they... ah..? off. Pat: A Micmac (Mi’kmaq) woman— Josephine: Moved it up to Elsie’s [Paul tapestry. What was her name? Chum- Street]. my’s mother. Alice: So who did all the basket making, Tina: Harriet. like, back then? Pat: Harriet, she was a good worker. Pat and Tina: Everyone. Rugs. Tina: In the morning when you woke up Tina: She knew how to work. someone would be pounding ash. Josephine: She went with a Chinese Josephine: Ah ha, it sounded good, man. someone pounding when you woke Alice: And Chummy’s name would be up. Donald Paul right? Tina: They worked all the time. All three: Yes. Alice: So they made baskets all the time Tina: Harriet took up with a Chinese then? Did they sell them? man. What was the name of that

19 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

restaurant? Paul], Dickie, Paul Paul. Josephine: I forgot. Corner of York Pat: Joe Dedham, Harry. Street, there was a Chinese Restau- Tina: I lived a long time in a workshop. rant there. We always use to eat there. Alice: I need to know a little bit about, Tina: Yes Indians were not allowed to buy Josephine: Hot chicken sandwiches, liquor back then, and how did you twenty-five cents. acquire that? Tina: Can’t beat that. Josephine: Dogs were not allowed Alice: Out of the eighteen houses that either. were here a long time ago, were there Tina: If you wanted to drink, you had to more families than the houses? find a non-native to get it for you. Josephine: Yes. Josephine: Non-natives could not live Pat: Soldiers came back and they had to on the reserve after six o’clock. live in workshops for about ten years. Tina: After nine, if they were invited. Every workshop was either occupied Josephine: Just until six pm. by families or a veteran. Tina: Nine o’clock, if he was allowed. If Tina: The houses that we got were in the head of the household says he very poor condition. No water. could stay until nine, but after nine he Josephine: Yes, Louie Babe [Louie has to go.

Plate 2.2: Alexa Paul of St. Mary's First Nation, picking fiddleheads on Savage Island, between Fredericton and Kingsclear, New Brunswick (University of New Brunswick Archives, 74-17389).

20 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Pat: Saying something about non- Tina: He was the only policeman and he natives, George Wiseman and the would be walking. Nashes. Alice: So, was there anything else being Josephine: When Carrie use to come, made besides baskets, ax handles? she would have to stay in a box car. Tina: Just seasonal work. Picking Alice: Tell us a little about travelling. fiddleheads and potato picking. How did you travel if you had to go Josephine: We’d be up on the Island for anywhere? about a month, as long as there was Pat: By boat to pick fiddleheads. fiddleheads. Tina: Going to town—we had to work Alice: So tell us something about Sav- winter time—cross over on the ice. age Island. When did you first start Josephine: We jumped on Charlie’s, going there? behind the back of the horse. He Pat: A lot of Indian people would go to would try to fight us and chase us Savage Island. away. When he would start moving Tina: I remember a long time ago. again we would jump on… Molly, Anwall, all kinds of Indian Tina: Were you around when we use to camps along the shore, now known as tease Leo Hayes? [asking Josephine]. Molly’s Island. Josephine: Yes Josephine: All kinds of paths, if you Plate 2.3: From left: Kathleen "Rice" Sappier, Peter L. Paul of Woodstock, Maliya Paul (Mrs. Solomon Polchies) of St. Mary's, ca. 1922; Rice's home was one of three places where they used to hold dances (University of New Brunswick Archives, AC-10276-11).

21 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

wanted to go visit. No one but Indians Casey and Mynee. lived there. [They are all talking at Pat: Oh yeah, John knew how to call. the same time, hard to make out]… Tina: When the dancing was done, The all summer. boys, put all the stuff back. You ask Tina: Yeah, all summer. anyone. There was no alcohol, but the Tina: Bass time there are a lot of people. Bees Beer was somewhere brewing. Men. Just as soon as a fish jumps, Pat: And, relief. boats are in the water. Tina: Oh yeah, welfare. Pat: Those were the days. Pat: Indians were given only so much, Josephine: They speared them. no sugar or molasses. Tina: They speared them. Tina: I don’t know. Josephine: They don’t know the Indian Pat: You don’t get what you want. That name for speared. was the law. Pat: Indians had a good time back then. Tina: Indian Agents treated us poorly. They would dance back then. Every Whalen made his home in Pilick night they would dance, up the hill, [Kingsclear]. His house was way either at home or (pause) down the bottom of the road, from the Tina: No matter where you went they money I suppose. would ask, could we dance here? Pat: He steals. [She talks of them moving a stove Josephine: McKutchen. and it had to be put back after where Tina: McKutchen, his home was where it was]. the bank is today. Josephine: Sometimes there would be Josephine: Two thousand something for three places where they would be a week. dancing in one night. At Molly’s, Tina: Yeah. Josephine’s and where Rice Tina: When Whalen was in, at the time I [Kathleen] use to live [Paul Street]. had six children I did not get any Tina: They would go after John Casey help. Dokie [Mark Brooks] was in the [John Paul] and Mynee. These two hospital, Louise and everyone else could dance. helped me (pause) Josephine: She says that she could call Pat: Hard times. the dances. She use to listen to who- Tina: Donnie Solomon was Chief in ever was calling the dances. If they Pilick [Kingsclear] at the time. weren’t there she would call, but Donnie and Dokie were in the hospi- today she does not remember them. tal at the same time. Dokie told They couldn’t teach them to do the Donnie about how the agent would Boston Fancy Dance. not help, so Kingsclear helped Tina Tina: How did they know these dances? and Dokie that month. Two hundred Josephine: I don’t know. dollars for food from Bowlen’s and Tina: They knew how to dance, John milk. Andrew Paul was Chief at the

22 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

time, I went to ask him for (pause) Tina: Until I was old enough, when I Josephine: He was mean. was six years old. Then I started Tina: Sixteen dollars. And he went with going up with Arthur. me to Lean’s Store, so that I wouldn’t Alice: Who was Arthur? get junk. I never asked him for any- Josephine: Paul’s father [Paul J. Paul]. thing again. I was pleased with what I Arthur Paul. got. Kerney [Clarence Paul] had a Alice: So, Savage Island, is that store at the time. Me and Josephine haunted? Or is there a burial ground went to the store. We got our welfare, there? so we went to pick, there was nothing Josephine: Burial ground, in the middle there. So she asked Josephine, what there. do you want Kleenex? Or..., we’ll Pat: It’s not haunted. have to boil Kleenex tomorrow. We Tina: Well, I’ve seen a black one. had nothing all weekend, so we had Josephine: David was telling me one to go to Bowlen’s. night, that George Nash was telling Josephine: Jimmy’s old house, sitting him about what happened to him. He over their fence. Potatoes, turnips, said that all night long, the ghosts he’d steal the night before so we were bothering him. could eat the next day. Potatoes and Pat: Who was that? turnips, turnip hash. Josephine: George Nash. He knew how Tina: My sons too, when we were all to tell stories. out of everything. Pat: Oh yeah. Pat: We use to steal chicken, had Josephine: Polons [Francis] chicken every week. Tina: Ween [Bill] every year he lived Tina: Harold and Frankie, they went to right there. Boat or no boat. From steal chicken, cut their head off, and Bear Island, just a raft and a basket. me and Martina [Martina Sappier] Alice: So, if there is a burial ground would cook them. When the girls there, people lived there? came around that night, they wanted Tina and Josephine: Oh yeah. to know where we got the chicken. Alice: Constantly? Pat: Yeah, those were the days. Tina and Josephine: Not all year around, Tina: Yes, I guess. not winter just summer and spring. Alice: Going back to Savage Island, But in the winter time (pause) before my time I guess, how many Josephine: There was one, when we years have people were picking fiddleheads—Dokie and been going up there? you [Tina]—there was a turtle and he Tina: Way, way back, as far as I can must have been at least one hundred remember. years or more. Names were carved on Josephine: Me too. that shell. Even Bobby Brooks, Jack Pat: Me too. Brooks, their names.

23 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: On the turtle? was so mad. Pat: Do you know why Indians are on Alice: You said Jack’s Island? this side of the river? Josephine: Jack’s Island. Alice: No. Alice: Where is that? Pat: No fresh water in town, there was a Josephine: There’s Savage Island, there brook running through the reserve. are hardly any trees. Alice: Really. Alice: Is that the one we call Sheep Pat: Oh yeah, they wouldn’t (pause) Island? river water. Tina: Sheep Island, Molly’s Island. Tina: Behind that house, there was a Josephine: Molly’s Island is right well or something there—spring across. water. Tina: There’s Hartt. Pat: So when they settled on this side, Josephine: Hartt’s Island is on the other well and stream was from Killarney side. Lake. Tina: On the other side near the enter- Tina: Yes. tainment (pause) Pat: Remember that old pump down the Alice: Yes, the Bucket Club. old Reserve? Tina: Yeah. Alice: Yes, I remember that. Alice: There is Savage, Sugar and Pat: We wouldn’t drink that river water. Sheep? Just the white man, they didn’t know Tina: No, there’s an Island in between any better. It’s sewer. Sheep and Savage. Josephine: Is this still going on [ tape Alice: Oh, is there? recorder]? Josephine: Molly’s Island, they call it. Alice: Yes. Molly use to live there. Tina: Indians, when they start hunting in Alice: What about Indian Island in Saint early spring, moving away, Muskrat John? Or some where down there. Is when muskrat season is done they St. Croix and Indian Island the same wait for the fiddleheads and fish. place or two different areas? Josephine: When we use to live on Pat: We stayed up there in Indian Island, Jack’s Island. Mynee was there and, Saint John one year to take a bunch of who was it Doc or the other one? logs. Tina: Piyel Suseph (Peter Joseph). Tina: We took kids there one time. Josephine: Yes, Piyel Suseph. My father Josephine: I was there, but never went would come to Fredericton and sell to the Island. fiddleheads and we would stay up the Tina: Two weeks we went. Island. My father had a pet crow and Alice: Did people use to live there? they gave it Bees Beer [Homemade Tina: Probably, but not (pause) beer]. My father got mad. The crow Pat: Belongs to Indians that Island was drunk and staggering. My father (pause)

24 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: What about St. Croix? Gorley took the other. That’s when Pat: I have no idea. they built those houses... He made a Tina: I’ve been to St. Croix, we use to fortune, that Gorley. This was all go there every summer, when Maria Indian land. use to live Tina: When I think about it, we owned it there. She was living with Bill all. McDonald, and we go there in the Pat: They had to buy this land off of Leo summer time. That time Uncle Arthur Hayes [Where Reserve is now]. was building a log cabin, even the That’s all we kids had Bees Beer—me and Elsie— had was that piece of waterfront. before he started working. Alice: So at one time, the old Reserve Alice: What about Brown’s Flat? was just the Reserve. Tina: I don’t know anything about that. Josephine: This was all apple orchards Pat: That’s a place where Indians went [Where Reserve is now]. in summer made baskets. Pat: It belonged to Leo Hayes, Gorley. Alice: So it was just like a gathering Tina: Yes, there was a great big rock place of people to go in the summer quarry there between Rita’s and time. Helen’s old place. Its all rock. There Tina: Yes, summer time. is a house lot there. Josephine and I Pat: Just to make money for the sum- use to go out after school and with mer. akomok (snowshoes), every day we Tina: There was probably something would go into the woods. there, like hoops. Josephine: Looking for dry apples. Pat: Joe use to go up river, Pokiok. Tina: Yeah. Tina: Everybody found a place to go. Josephine: That have fallen, frozen, and Alice: So these places, like Brown’s we’d eat the juice out of them. Flat, St. Croix, Indian Island, were They’re brown. they owned by Indians? Pat: That’s right, they were juicy. Pat: No, they’re just camping areas. Josephine: Ah ha. Tina: Just by the shore way. Tina: It was fun along time ago. You Alice: So it’s not Indian. made your own entertainment when Pat: One time the whole country be- you went out even if it snowed a lot. longed to us. No-one stuck around in the house. We Josephine: There was only one Mountie. were out, kcihkuhsisok (little wooded Pat: The Indians just wanted a piece of area). Toboggans, when we start land by the river. getting toys. Pat: The white man started putting up Josephine: We’d go sliding, Killarney stakes. Leo Hayes and.... Road. Tina: Gorley, oh yes. Tina: Or at the field where I now live Pat: Leo Hayes took one side and [Maliseet Drive] or on the road.

25 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Josephine: You could slide right down would play the organ [Red Wing]. the road and pass the tracks. And we would dance. Pat: See, there was only two cars up Josephine: Even Solomon, accordion. here (pause) and John Casey. You Doc or Pete, the violin. didn’t see them going around. Driv- Tina: Ned Landry would come and play ing back and forth maybe once a the violin and we would dance. The week. old lady had a good time just sitting Tina: They don’t even use their (pause) there. John Casey was trying to teach Josephine: We would play poison. And Charlie about the car, anyway. Told even Dr. Wright played, and he ate him to get in, when I tell you to step the corn too. on it you step on it. Step on it [Said in END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE; TAPE Maliseet]. We all laughed. He kept his ONE SIDE TWO cars for a long time, didn’t go any- Tina: Houses were open and you were where. welcome. No matter where you went. Josephine: He didn’t go anywhere. We’d Pat: You were welcome. play inside the car if he wasn’t home. Alice: Let’s go back, to when you said you were lucky. Who adopted you? Tina: Today you could sell and get good [Laughter]. money for it. If someone owned one. Pat: My father couldn’t support us, so Josephine: The car had small tires. my mother went to Saint John. He Tina: Essex or something... went up to Tobique. We were left, Josephine: Yes. Louie, Nick, Mart, myself and Rena. Pat: Nemo told Pat that it took two days In those days she [Mother] was to get to Fort Fairfield. [Something getting a one hundred thirty-five a about a flat month, which was a lot of money. tire. Lots of laughter]. Tina and Josephine: Yes it is. Alice: Everyone shared back then? Pat: People would work all day, ten hour All three: Yes work. Labour for one dollar, for one Tina: Any place you went, Native day. If you were lucky to get a job. territory, doors were always open. I’ve seen Nemo and my brother Louie Long time ago Aunt Elizabeth [Pat’s [noise in the background]. They Grandmother], she had half-way would work six in the morning until house. She was a small little old lady. six at night for one buck. They Josephine: Yes. worked hard. Tina: She would cook piyeskomonyol Tina: Until I got married, Dokie went to (corn soup). work in town for the Jews. Five Josephine: Everybody. dollars a day. Tina: Anyone that came in, night time. Pat: How many kids did you have Tina? She had an organ. Even Bertha, she Six kids?

26 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: You could buy a lot back then pounds for a dollar, hamburger. with what you made. Josephine: Tuswey said, go to the store Tina: Well you could, but (pause) for me. Watson’s, go buy meat. Flank. Pat: But we just managed to get through I said I want a pound of flank. Plank, one day at a time. There’s a song he said, you’re in the wrong place, about that, ‘One day at a time’. That you should go to the Devon Lumber was the way you had to live, just to Co. It was flank, but I said plank. survive. Tina: We would steal pulp out of box Tina: Yeah. And you didn’t worry about cars. tomorrow. You just live for today. Josephine: Carrying logs. Alice: That’s how it should be today Tina: Myrtle, she had a toboggan. too. Josephine: Poor thing. Percy and Jerry Tina: Everybody had a good time. would just be sitting there. Pat: We just started getting electricity Tina: Yeah. not too long ago. Pat: She worked hard, Myrtle, I Tina: That time Dokie was in the hospi- wouldn’t doubt that. She is as strong tal, that’s the first time I ever got as a man. (pause) I had to save my family Tina: You can tell just by the way she allowance so I could get one light put walks. Every night she had to go in. steal. Charlie, after school, he had to Josephine: And me too, one light. walk to the Queen hotel across the Pat: Just in the last ten years Indians ice. (pause) Pat: When she brought the basket back Tina: We’d get very cold. she would only get one cookie out of Pat: I use to haul wood everyday. If we it. Percy and all of them (pause) had an extra log we’d raffle it off, but Tina: They would eat everything up. it wasn’t much, two dollars. When there was bad weather, still had Tina: Two dollars. Dokie, all week to walk after school. We didn’t have would haul back and forth, so he holidays at school. could play raffle on Sundays. Josephine: Unless Father Riley came, Pat: Turn a switch, your laughing. gave us a half day. But you had to Josephine: We started getting wood, the know your Catechism. You had to whole yard was full. Presto logs and learn certain words and he’d ask you. afterwards those nubits. My father But he didn’t ask the words you had use to go to the market on Saturdays to learn, so he would ask words that to buy pork. you didn’t learn. Pat: It wasn’t too long ago, relief was a Tina: Not the same words. Whalen voucher, now you get cash. would come and bring his son with Tina: Market on Sunday to buy meat at him. a reasonable price or Brown’s. Five Josephine: Yeah.

27 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Tina: Bobby Whalen. other day. Alice: Is that the Bobby Whalen that’s Pat: Nancy is white also. been walking around here. That’s his Tina: Yes. son and he use to be the Indian agent. Alice: We’re slowly being pushed out. His Father? Pat: But they will carry on as Indians. All three: Yes But they’re trying to buy the Indians Tina: He treated us poorly. They must out. have a lot of the Indian money now. Tina: They should buy a piece of land Josephine: Yes. They were well off. somewhere and all the Indians go and Tina: Whalen had a house in Kingsclear. leave the whites behind, to start all Pat: Esty Brooks and I—he’s dead over. now—we were in jail. Whalen gave Josephine: They wanted us to live in us thirty days, no fine. So we were in Kingsclear. there. The guy, a trustee, came in Tina: That was so (pause) there. ‘A chap is going out tomorrow,’ Pat: You know inter-marriages. That he said, ‘he has no clothes’. A white woman from Tobique, What was her guy, it was no Indian. And Whalen name? Nicholas girl? got a clothing order for that guy: Tina: Andrea Nicholas, could be. rubbers, pants, underwear, jacket. So Pat: Remember, she won a court case. when Isaac came—we were allowed Alice: No, wasn’t that Sandra Lovelace one phone call— so I told Isaac that or someone like that. Whalen gave this white man our All three: That’s the one Lovelace. clothing. Then when we got out, there Pat: She’s the one that started. Maybe were two bundles of clothing for us. she had a point, but I don’t know. Brand new clothes. Alice: Back then they gained status, Alice: If you think back, them helping today they don’t. white man is almost the same thing Tina: Well, the thing is, the white man, today. Well? they’re taking over. Pat: Things haven’t changed too much. Alice: No white should have any say on Take this reserve, no offence to this reserve. We’re suppose to be anybody, but a lot of white people. I stronger than them. don’t even know my family, don’t Josephine: It’s suppose to be that way. know half of them. But eventually the Tina: It’s suppose to be that way. white man will be taking over. Alice: Religion for Indian people. Let’s Josephine: There are more white than talk about religion for a couple of Indian. minutes. Or who taught or if anybody Tina: I told Nancy one day, no offence, did teach religion to Indians. but someday they are all going to be Josephine: We had to go to church in the whites up on this hill. school. Alice: Richard told me the same the Tina: We would go every lent.

28 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 2.4: Children from St. Mary's, photo ca. 1890 (Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, P5-81).

Josephine: Forty days. Josephine: He only came once a year. Tina: Forty days, every morning. Pat: There wasn’t that many holidays. Josephine: Six o’clock, every morning. Tina: It was fun a long time ago. Now I Tina: No matter what the weather, we don’t even want to go out. Long time still had to go. ago, Indians play poker, didn’t care Pat: The priest use to give us half a day. what day it was. Dinner time, poker Josephine: Father Donahue. game. Pat: From the North Shore. Josephine: Even out on the lawn, they’d Josephine: Dr. Bailey, Father Bailey, I spread a blanket out. Right on the mean. ground penny ante. Tina: Father Bailey. Pat: We use to play with marbles. Pat: Father Bailey use to give us half a Tina: Gardens were open, there was no day. He come in the morning and get fence. Aunt Elizabeth, she let us have half a holiday. cucumbers, small ones. Josephine: That was Father Ryan, he Pat: No one had to steal. comes from Saint John. Tina: You didn’t have to steal. If you Pat: Gave us half holiday. wanted anything, all you had to do Josephine: Yes. was ask. If you didn’t want some- Tina: We only got that once a year. thing, then you didn’t bother it.

29 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Pat: That’s right. She came and told on me, so I had to Josephine: Children were not destruc- go and find the quarter that I hid. I tive. was so happy that I found it. I got Tina: No. blamed when Rice told my father. Josephine: We’d just tease. Tina: Dokie and Charlie, they made ax Tina: Yeah, that was fun. Until you got handles and sold them at Hull’s, someone angry. But next day, it blew where the black people lived. Next over. day this man came and he wanted his Alice: The way we eat today is not the money back because his ax came off way we ate back then. the ax handle. They made him an- Pat: No way. other one, but I don’t know how they Tina: Don’t think so. made them, but that’s pretty bad Pat: If you got a slice of white man’s when you give back the money. bread a week you were lucky. It was Alice: How much did they sell them ax all Indian handles for. bread. Tina: Fifty cents, fifty-five cents or a Tina: Home made bread. dollar. Josephine: We would go buy bread at Josephine: Whatever another person Graham’s. Sale bread. could afford, I guess. It was very cold Tina: Sale bread. where they had the stands. Josephine: Eight cents. Tina: Where city hall is now, that use to Tina: Once I sent Shawnee to John be the market. You could walk across Casey’s store, my last thirty cents to the ice. buy bread. We lived in Workshop Josephine: A long time ago, there was a then. Go buy me bread. She took a fire at (pause) long time. I went to look for her, she Josephine: Willard Fruit, right down the was sitting on the step eating candy. hill, burnt. There was a lot of apples. There goes my bread money. I didn’t We ate apples all winter, or we’d go even have any flour. Just sitting there. buy (pause) Bread was fifteen cents then. To go Tina: Alexanders. buy bread. Josephine: Alexanders. I would sneak a Pat: Those were the days. bite in school (pause) Josephine: One time ago, Rice lived in Pat: At school you use to get warm the workshop in Sylvia’s house. She milk. It didn’t taste very good. They was making alterations to my coat. didn’t cool it off. It came right from My father hired her and paid her the cow to the school. Warm milk was twenty-five cents to make me a a help and you had one teaspoon of winter coat. We were sitting on the cod liver oil. couch and I found twenty-five cents. Josephine: I always had to take two So I went to hide it and she lost it. teaspoons of cod liver oil.

30 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Tina: Yeah, you were more anaemic Josephine: I do. than the rest of us. I could hardly Alice: Who is she? stand to take one. Milk and cod liver All three: Teacher. oil is not a good mixture, really. Pat: She had that tree, orange tree. Josephine: No. Tina and Josephine: Ah ha. Pat: We had to brush our own teeth Pat: She cut it up. Lost her job. down there with what they gave you. Josephine: I would go for dinner. We Tina: Powder. would run on top of desks. One Josephine: Yes. Standing here, Charlie would watch out must have had his hand up, but the the window for the teacher. teacher didn’t see. So he just peed Tina: You couldn’t talk Indian. We himself. And one time again at would be in a corner talking Indian. school, I was sitting in back, Becka in Alice: So, the nuns taught you also? front and Teddy and Warren in be- Pat and Josephine: No. tween. A louse. He was a live one, Tina: They taught me. playing with his bug on his desk. The Alice: So, were you punished if you teacher was way over with her talked Indian. pointer. I told him that the teacher All three: Yes. was coming and he picked up the Alice: And how were you punished? louse and threw it, and I took to Tina: Stay after school or get hit with laughing hard. I don’t know who was the pointer. in front, no wonder we had lice. Pat: Hit on the back of the wrist. Pat: Philip Nash. The first day in school, Josephine: We’re standing in the line- told him to go on up to the board and up, we didn’t know, and then the draw something, he drew a cow that pointer. You bring was pooping. out you’re hand and if you pulled it Tina: Do you remember Mrs. M. back, you would get it twice as much. Elliott? She only had one dress. Tina: The Sisters, on my knuckles, Josephine: Just one? because I was wearing nail polish. I Tina: Everyday. still think about that today, all the Pat: That’s right. time. Knuckles, pointer, you know Josephine: Yeah, greyish blue. nice girls. How do you know I’m Pat: I remember that. nice? Nice girls don’t go around Tina: All those years teaching. wearing nail polish. Josephine: She didn’t dress any differ- Alice: Were they trying to do things ent. their way? Tina: Night time she would wash the Tina: Well, basically, I guess. White dress and then iron it. man’s rules. Pat: One year I remember Mary O’s. Pat: We’d take our books home, I never Tina: I don’t remember her. even studied or anything. Morning

31 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

you tried to make up for it. Queen Mother now. Josephine: Only four years I went to Josephine: Ah, ha. She was ten years school, because I was sickly when I old. Queen Elizabeth not Queen was young. I was suppose to study at Mother. Because I home for two years. I did have grade was ten. We’re the same age. six books, but that was it. Pat: Is she that old? Tina: I jumped from one class to an- Josephine: She is seventy-two and I’m other, in a day. I go to school in grade going on seventy-two. four, I come out, I’m in grade six. Pat: I saw her in Korea. Alice: Why was that? Tina: It was no big deal when you think Tina: I was smart. When I got to be about it now. She just waves. We thirteen we were too young to quit, were busy with the flags. we couldn’t get in high school. We Josephine: Yes. would just sit around until we were Pat: Who put the sign across the road, fifteen. We would teach the kids ‘Welcome Devon Indians’? Catechism every morning. I’ll take Josephine: I don’t know. the Nuns lunch, boil two eggs and Pat: I don’t know, it should have been cook two slices of bacon. But we did welcome Queen Elizabeth! Times take Home Economics. have really changed. Pat: In ‘33 our teacher was telling us, if Tina: I guess they’re changed, not for that man gets in power, there’s going the better either. When I think about to be a lot of people killed. World it, I would sooner be back there then War (pause) that’s when Hitler got in where I am today. power. Alice: Do you know of any other places Tina: Do you remember Queen Eliza- where Indian people went besides beth when she was around? Brown’s Flat, St. Croix, Indian Is- Josephine: That’s the time my eyes were land? bothering me. Tina: Just when we went picking pota- Tina: We had new outfits. Everyone had toes in the fall. a new dress. They were old fash- Josephine: Truck loads. Maybe one or ioned, ruffles. two families on reserve, the rest went Pat: That was in ‘38. picking. Tina: That was ‘39. She looked so good. END OF TAPE

32 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

3. Money off the Indians

RICHARD POLCHIES JUNIOR SITANSISK/ST. MARY’S FIRST NATION

…Whalen thrived off the Indians. He made money off the Indians. He was an ex-RCMP officer and he retired a millionaire. And all the goods and services that were provided to the Indians along the Saint John River, went to his personal gain. All the farm produce, the animals, the farm supplies, lumber supplies, army, air force, navy, RCMP supplies, the surplus, he got them, gave them to the Indians and paid himself for services rendered. Vegetables, beef, sheep, all them things, he paid himself for services.

Alice: Could you tell me something as you get off that high bridge, about Jemseg? If people had lived there’s an area there that Indians there? occupied at one time. Probably Richard: Grand Lake, because that’s seasonal, basket making and stuff where Indian Point is. like that, but I don’t know for sure. Alice: No, I’m not talking about Grand Richard: First, if I go back like to the Lake. I’m talking Jemseg. Just as soon late 50’s, fifty-nine and sixty. Down

Plate 3.1: Grand Lake, looking West, South of Princess Park (photo by Karen Perley)

33 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

in Grand Lake, Cow Point, there was that was settled. You know, like more a settlement of Indians there, like occupants. Because Kingsclear as we years past in the 20’s and 30’s. And know it today, wasn’t Kingsclear as it there was two graveyards down is today. It was up river, where there and then you came up along (pause) the banks of the Grand Lake. Then Alice: So what was it known as? you came into Quapit (Maquapit Richard: It was Kingsclear, but it wasn’t Lake) and French Lakes. There was a located there, is what I’m trying to little island between the two bridges say. It was located up river, up by at Lakeville Corner. That island, Kelly Creek. Up in that area where there’s reserve; there’s burial grounds the is washed over, like now, there too. Then you come up around right around Wolastoq Park. Around that point, which is the out skirts of that area is where Kingsclear use to Grand Lake, coming into the Saint be and their Church was, is still John River, which takes you up along standing there today. It’s St. Anne’s. the Jemseg. So Indians occupied that And there was a lot of stories told to whole lake area, from Indian Point, me about Kingsclear by Louise right around to Jemseg, right up to Polchies and her husband, Arthur the Saint John River. And then you Polchies, about Kingsclear. The come up river just before you get to legend is that, did you ever go up Oromocto. And they occupied land there where the big rock is up at and there’s seven graves down there Taber’s field? of Indians, which is known as Alice: No. Portabello. Portabello Drive in there, Richard: Okay. There’s a rock there and see. And there was a lot of fights that as God is my witness—this spring or went on in there amongst the rich this summer you come and get me, people. Like from Saint John, bring- I’ll take you there. There’s a rock ing in the Americans. People that there, as big as this table, and there’s owned that sugar refinery that a footprint in it. And you take the fought with the Indians for the right gun, like when you hold up to your to use the river, like the passage. And shoulder, that end of it. And like this the Indians occupied it so bad, that white man kept moving his marker the white people couldn’t get up over, all the time, for the boundary, through there and they started fight- like his line, for the marker. So the ing. But the Indians won out, they Indian got mad and something to the won over the white people. And a lot effect of ‘This be the last damn time of them that didn’t move, that stayed you move this marker, and I’m home, were mostly your hunters and putting my mark on it here now.’ trappers and basket makers. They And he stomped his foot on the rock, owned all the way from, mostly from and he butted his gun barrel on the Tobique, Woodstock, Kingsclear— rock. And the mark is still there Kingsclear not so much. Kingsclear today. And to this day, he put a curse wasn’t really settled on until later. It on that land. As long as white man was during the late 30’s and 40’s that, owned it, nothing will ever grow on

34 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

it and nothing has and nothing will. never ever gave up the right to this Alice: So, white man is still on it? land, in New Brunswick and down Richard: They’re on it. But nothing has through the states. ever grown on it and some people Alice: Actually, they didn’t own land. believe it’s haunted. I’ve heard of at They weren’t on land anyway, they least five people that’s been haunted were using waterfront. by that piece of land and they see Richard: Not really, they hunted inland. (pause) Alice: But I mean for basket making, Alice: Indians? fishing. They camped around the Richard: Yeah. waterfront. Alice: Why would the Indians be Richard: They also hunted too, you see. haunted if white man is occupying And they had to go to a source. Say the land? like deer, moose, beaver and any Richard: Well, because it’s spirits. inland game that wasn’t next to Spirits, they don’t discriminate. water. Like beaver, you had beaver Alice: I guess not. . Muskrat, like they didn’t just Richard: It could be a good spirit or a stay around rivers. Like muskrat, you bad spirit, I don’t know. One never never know where you’re going to knows, you’d have the experience of find them darn things. And say, your one. Getting back down to around ash for ax handles, making baskets. Jemseg, people occupied all sorts of They had to travel the woods to find land down through there. But as far all this stuff. And, of course, when as owning any land, they didn’t own they found good crop of ash some- any land down through there. They where, they repeatedly go back there owned it all, at one time. And Indians every spring of the year. And their

Plate 3.2: Grand Lake, looking West, South of Princess Park (photo by Karen Perley)

35 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

fare was going to Saint John to the of stealing on other peoples land. market. And selling their baskets and Okay, then people accuse that person trading, like for different stuff, like or whoever that person might be, of for vegetables or whatever. And a lot stealing and wanting him charged. of people carried it by back. I know That’s what gave a lot of people bad old Noel Moulton from Tobique, he names. And offer to say just for use to walk from Tobique to argument purposes, just go ask the Woodstock. And he’d stop at every person, whoever occupied the land if farmer carrying baskets, to see if they it’s all right to cut a piece of ash. And wanted to buy baskets. And by the usually they didn’t give you no time he made a one way trip, he hassle, no problem. Especially if they would be loaded right down with a knew that your livelihood depended whole bunch of stuff. So it wasn’t on it. And same thing really applied everybody that did it. My Grandfa- all over the place When you start ther did it in Woodstock. He hunted misusing something (pause) Like say all the way from Woodstock, clear today, like under that Supreme Court out to Canterbury, Skiff Lake and case decision, that Sparrow. You back into where that Indian trail is in know, even if that didn’t materialize Meductic. and as long as it was maintained. Alice: So who was your grandfather? What I’m trying to say here is that, What was his name? once you start misusing something, Richard: John Paul, and he done that like if you start getting too many close to forty years and he knew that deer or too many moose, whatever. woods like the back of his hand. You’re going to do away with that Alice: Okay, if Indians didn’t own any stock and then you’re not going to land, they had to hunt inland? have nothing. Now we have been Richard: They did own it. But you see falsely accused and I wrote letters to the misconception is always been Ottawa. I wrote letters to Halifax, that the Indians gave up the land. We Regional Director D.F.O.’s [Depart- never gave it up; it was taken away ment of Fisheries and Oceans] office from us. down there, criticizing the data and Alice: But didn’t non-Indians give them the scientific information that their a hard time for hunting back then? biologist had to deal with the rivers Richard: No, not really. In my life time, I of New Brunswick and the fish can’t ever recall anybody ever giving counts of Salmon. And I asked a me a hard time. No, what my Grand- question of how many high sea father use to say is that you went to fishing trollers there were in the ask somebody. If somebody owned oceans that were run by Indians and the land, say like a farmer, and that questions like that. Lobster traps and was a stick of ash on their land and all sorts of things and the response I you wanted that stick of ash, they got was none. Yet you’re looking at always gave it to them. You never television and hearing on the radio, had any problems. It was when and you read in the papers that people went around with the premise Indians were depleting the salmon

36 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 stock of our rivers. You know, that vehicles, there’s ATVs and every- information, that was unfounded, thing. And all the back roads are, that and really was critical towards all of use to be all woods, is only visible by us across the country, you know. It’s airplane or by helicopter. And now happening now in the states of you can get to any part, anywhere Washington and Oregon in the you want to go. Like I can go just go . Now they are feeling outside of and the same pressure. And the squeeze end up in St. Stephen, And not hit a has been put on by British Columbia road of pavement, they’re all dirt and Alaska, you know, on the salmon road. stocks there. It’s not, again, the Alice: Let’s go back to Jemseg and them Native people, you know. They’re places, let’s talk about them. only getting… hell for every million Richard: Well, you take from the Jemseg fish, they’re getting less than ten bridge to Saint John, there was a lot percent of it. And it’s hardly for the of, mostly Nashes and Sacobies that numbers of people. They far outnum- occupied the rivers down through ber us out west, than here in the east, them areas. Which would be the in the sizes of their communities and village of Gagetown and Upper the number of reserves. And so if you Gagetown, which is almost three take and divide that into their alloca- miles, I suppose From the Jemseg tion, they get less than ten salmon Bridge in the western and southern per family, and that’s hardly any. direction from the bridge itself. Now Then people have to pay big bucks and then you went down river to for their licenses, especially commer- Brown’s Flat, Indian Point and cial fisherman. And it’s not like it (pause) was years ago. But then again, if you Alice: Okay, Brown’s Flat and Indian look at, and pointing the finger, you Point are not the same place? know, it certainly shouldn’t be di- Richard: No, they’re two different rected towards us, you know. Like places. we always try to preserve and main- Alice: But are they on the same area? tain. Just take what we can utilize Same island? and leave the rest for when you need Richard: They are in the same, like a it. It’s almost like you’d have to go dog foot, I suppose. One is to the left back to the 20’s and 30’s, when there hand side and one is to the right was no electricity and refrigerator. hand side. Here back about fifteen, People couldn’t put it in a new sixteen years ago, there was a doctor refrigerator or freezer, they just could and a nurse killed down there in the hang out and dry the meat. By hang- lake—aircraft. And Jeffrey was down ing it out and cook it when you need there and Melvin’s young fellow, it. Or in the wintertime you hide it in Richard. And they phoned up and the snow bank and hope the animals they were scared, because they don’t get at it, and that’s the way you witnessed a plane crash, you see. No, ate. But today, you know, there’s so that was longer than that, because we much variance. THERE'S more motor lived in Marysville.

37 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: But Brown’s Flat, what I’m trying there was caribou too. But, the deer to say is, Brown’s Flat and Public chased the caribou out, and the Landing—is that what I said? moose, you see. They chased them Richard: No, you said (pause) up towards Quebec. That’s why you Alice: Indian Point see caribou now in Quebec and Richard: Indian Point and Brown’s Flat. Labrador, because they all took off, Alice: Okay. Brown’s Flat and Public across the ice. But they were all Landing, are they the same place? chased, right from down to Nova But two different areas in the same Scotia, right up to Quebec. The area? Province of Quebec and Labrador, Richard: They are close in proximity. that’s why you see an over abun- Opposite each other. dance of them. Alice: But not the same place? Alice: What about Indian Island? Richard: They are two different places. Richard: Indian Island? Alice: Brown’s flat and Public Landing, Alice: Is there an Indian Island, over Indians also occupied them places. there in Saint John somewhere? Also, what did they do there? Richard: Yeah, Brother’s Island. Richard: Made baskets, because they Alice: Is there an Indian Island? got all their ash just from up over the Richard: No, there’s Brother’s Islands. hill, what is now Base Gagetown. They are right across from the ma- That all use to be all farm land up rina, right in the city of Saint John. through there And you could take Alice: So, did Indians occupy that place and drive right from Oromocto on too? the old highway and you would end Richard: Oh yeah, there’s even a silver up right there at Brown’s Flat. It’s mine. There’s a silver mine there, yes, right up over the big hill there. but it’s not, it was never ever mined. Alice: I’ve never heard about that until I I shouldn’t say it wasn’t mined, started doing this. because it was mined. But they Richard: Oh yeah, I’ve driven it several couldn’t mine it, if that makes any times, but you can drive on it on the sense, because it’s surrounded by fall of the year during hunting sea- water, okay, and it’s surrounded by son. But like now, the roads are two rivers. One goes up towards closed, the military is doing their Sussex and the other one is the Saint training there and what not. John River. I forget the name of that Alice: So, they only occupied this in the one, I think it’s Kennebecasis. And summer time, these areas? anyway, they join together right at Richard: No, spring and summer. Brother’s Islands. Now if you’re Alice: Spring and summer. What about going to Saint John, like the East end, the fall? instead of going across the toll gate Richard: Fall, they start moving back bridge, you come into Saint John, go up, toward where their homes were across the Bridge. for the winter. And they hunted on Okay, and you come down through the way back, like moose and deer that street, where the museum is, and and earlier, at the turn of the century, then you come to an intersection like

38 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 a ‘y’ and you turn left. And that’s the they got asking the fellow that old way of going down to the hospi- owned the marina what all this tal, to the new hospital. Okay, that’s meant, because it was all new to one way of getting there. If you take them. Nobody knows, there’s no that route, then there’s a park down history behind it or anything. And there and on the left hand side is a when Harold came back, he asked ball park. We use to play fast ball me to look into the Lands Registry, if down there, like seniors fast ball. them lands were still registered as And now I’m going back to the late Reserve. And they were and still are 60’s now, and there was a… Harold today. brought down a bunch of kids down Alice: Really, Brother’s Islands? there and I drove the bus down for Richard: And at one time, there were him. This one trip and he brought the silver on them. But you couldn’t van down. I was suppose to pick the mine it, because of the water. There bus up that weekend, which I did. was no way blocking out the water Anyway back to the story. He had to and the silver is deep within the lead the way, because I had never mine shaft. And I don’t know how gone there before and I didn’t have a big the mine shaft is, but I never clue where it was. But after I went (pause) I went on the island once, there once… like I could find it now just to the camp but didn’t walk with no problem. And the marina around. And there’s one good sized was here, and right straight across island and two small ones, so there’s was the islands. Well, Harold got to three. They’re called Brother’s Is- know this policeman, he was the lands. And on a map—I have a map Deputy Chief of Police in Saint John somewhere and it has the name of and he watched the camp for Harold. them. But to name them, if you refer It was the Band’s Camp you see. But them as Brother’s Islands to anybody skidooers went there this one winter in that area, they’ll tell you where night and they didn’t know that this they’re at. And they’re just across place, that this policeman was watch- from the marina. It’s something that ing it. Well, it just so happened the more people should know. Same as night him and his wife went out, it St. Croix and Canoose. Hardly any was around Christmas or New Years, people know about that. And we somebody went and burned the done a search on that in 1974. And six building down. So nobody ever went of us went out there. And the first camping there again. But when time I ever went to St. Croix, I Harold use to take kids down there, couldn’t believe when I seen that kids use to like to swim, but the land, it was beautiful. Canoose on the water was cold. And when they jump other hand was “yucky” looking. All in the water, they would feel some- grown up with alders, a lot of old thing around their feet and scared dead trees. No camps, you know, it them. It was seals, baby seals. And was just over grown with old under anyway, they searched around that brush and stuff. island and they found this shaft. And Alice: Canoose. Is that owned by the

39 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 3.3: Village scene at Brown's Flats; the woman seated at the centre of the photo is making and is surrounded by hand-woven baskets and trade items (University of Pennsylvania, 139042).

Passamaquoddy Indians? Right up to last people to live on them two Point Lepreau? reserves. So when we got that infor- Richard: No, it was owned by the last mation… And he showed us a coin residents. On the St. Croix and that had an Indian head on it. That Canoose were Elsie, Josephine, Dan was given to him by a six year old, and Joe Sakpi, from here. And Peda back in the 20’s. So he still had that [Peter Paul] from Woodstock and one and we went to his house for coffee. I of his sons. That’s what that old man forgot his name, but I know where he told us in St. Stephen. What’s the lives, if he’s still alive. I doubt if he’s name of that, across from McAdam? alive today, he would be in his late Alice: Vanceboro, Maine. 80’s. Richard: Yes, Vanceboro Maine. We Alice: So, there was reserves on St. went right to the school house there. Croix and Canoose. There was a caretaker there and he Richard: Oh yeah. The St. Croix, that remembered them. And he remem- was unofficially declared a ‘reserve’. bered, he called him ‘white Pete’. So, I believe it was 1947. And there was a that had to be Peda. And Charlie opening on recovery for that prop- Paul. And the only Charlie Paul I erty, if somebody choose to go ahead know would be Charlie from up and do it . Now the only way you Tobique, And he said they were the could do it, is you have to know the

40 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

last known residents of that reserve Alice: Didn’t they already settle that? to put a claim in. And nobody Richard: I appealed, because of the wanted to do it. proper fiduciary responsibility of the Alice: Why? Federal Government has towards Richard: I don’t know, I don’t know. Indian People. The Indian People Now as I mentioned, them people, were notified of what that agreement they were the only seven people that entailed. You know all we were asked were known, okay. And Indian to do was to vote on a referendum Affairs’ contention was it was sur- for that. Did you realize there are plus land, unoccupied. And when the over fourteen pages attached to the Province applied for it, in their letter referendum on the conditions of the of Patents, they gave it to the Prov- reserve? And nobody mentioned ince. But they didn’t order a ‘Order- nothing about that Bingo Complex in-Council’ nor did they give them a up there. And so I asked for copies of privy number. So it’s still reserve and that from Amherst and I got it. So it’s still gathering assets as a reserve. when I got them, I appealed it, but I So it’s still a status reserve. Now the never got no response. I sent it right Governor of Maine and the Premier to the Minister’s office in Ottawa. So of New Brunswick, just before Louis something like that, they have to Robichaud time. I think it was research it. Especially when you VanWart. VanWart, he was the Pre- accuse them of their fiduciary re- mier of the day. Anyway the Gover- sponsibility. Because it’s not your nor and the Premier of that day, they fault, it’s not my fault, it’s not Chief decided to take both sides of that and Councils fault. It’s the fault of lake front and declare them National Indian Affairs, where they have the Historic Monuments. Parks, on both responsibility of advising you and American and Canadian sides. me as band members, as to what this Alice: And that would be St. Croix? referendum entails in its entirety, and And Canoose? they can’t. Like if you take a book Richard: Well, Canoose is just down and take some pages off. You know river. But in order for anybody to get what I’m saying? Like they’re delet- that land, the other Bands have to ing information from us, and that’s give up their interest. Their interest, illegal to do that. what they might have had and that’s Alice: Let’s go back to Canoose then. I not about to happen. It didn’t happen would like to know a little more the last twenty years, it’s certainly about that. not going to happen in the next two, Richard: Well, it was a reserve that was that’s for darn sure. I remember back basically set up by the Indians. That I in 1966, they said that Ring Road was just told you, that their families, last coming through here. Well, here it is known ones. Now I’m going back to now 1997, do you see a Ring Road up the late 20’s and 30’s, when they were there yet? there. But this old fellow, he remem- Alice: Are they going to put it through? bered back 1910, when he was told Richard: I doubt it. I doubt it. by his father and grandfather of

41 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Indians always occupying them Alice: Yes, he does, I’ve seen them. lands. Now, this is the guy in Richard: And I was surprised, when I Vanceboro, this old fellow. And he went up there quite a few years ago, stated that the Indians like Elsie, that he had that much selection. And Josephine, Dan and Joe walked from he got them all over the United St. Croix on the ice to school. It was States. And he has an automatic ash quite a ways. And walking on the ice pounder up there. First time I ever would be a lot shorter, but dangerous seen one of them. He got that from for little kids. They must have been down the States somewhere and he small back in them days. And they brought it home. Of course Louie used roads in the spring of the year, was always mechanically inclined and they’d be muddy. So I would and he modified it, got it working. imagine it would be hard trekking And he shook the whole house, for little kids, walking that distance. vibrated the ground. Kept the Indi- I’d say it would be a good eight to ans half awake all night long, when ten miles return. That’s something. that thing was thrashing and going They had to walk, there was no on. But I’ll tell you, she done the job school buses in them days. Winter and it was quite the thing to see it time was twice as hard. But that’s operate. I didn’t think he’d ever get it how they had to grow up and they off the ground. But Louie, I’ll tell survived. On Mother Nature, just you, he’s very passive. I’d guess I what the land provided. That was the would have to say, when he sets his bare essentials. And there was no fat mind on something, it’s going to get to be given there and there was no done. such thing as welfare back in them Alice: Tell us a little bit about St. days. And housing was what you Mary’s. Tell me about down the old made of it, it wasn’t like that today. Reserve there. Is that Indian land or You didn’t get nothing and you was it squatters land? didn’t want for anything. Anything Richard: No, no, there was squatters you had, you got it on your own, living on it but it was always Indian Like you worked for it, you bartered land. There is a misconception about for it. And that’s how people sur- Sitansisk, which is St. Mary’s. At one vived, you know, they traded. They time, we use to be over across the traded their furs, their baskets, their river, where the Sheraton and the Old handles, ax handles. All sorts of Mountie Barracks are. That’s where things for vegetables, clothes and the original St. Mary’s Indians were different tools that was required. And settled. Now we’re going back to the a lot of their tools was handmade, mid 1800’s, right up to the 1950’s. So that’s why you see a lot of Indian you’re looking at a 100 years just tools. The best selection I’ve ever right there. Indians occupied that seen of hand tools is Louie Paul’s. land, what’s known as the Devon Joe’s brother, up in Woodstock. And Indian Reserve. And this is the St. he’s got almost every conceivable Mary’s. There’s two reserves and tool an Indian ever had. they get two different numbers.

42 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: Those would be the lot numbers. the other was the land that the old Richard: Yes. And that one down there, vets. That they always professed that back in 1953, the City of Fredericton they owned, and this was one of (pause) And it was peculiar how it them, this piece of land here. The late went about. I’ve always challenged Dan Paul claimed, that when he all the past Chiefs on how that land, came back from the war, all the a portion of that land, got into the veterans that had served in World possession of the City of Fredericton. War II were assured by the D.V.A. Along with a portion of Dedham that they had to have a minimum of Street. And people always was told two acres of land to get V.L.A. assist- to keep quiet about it. And I sort of ance. Like for their land act. And got peed off, how land transaction that’s how the houses were estab- transpired the way referendums were lished on Paul Street. Them old held, and what not. People seem to houses, like Aunt Evangeline’s house be content. For example, when I was there. elected Chief in 1984, I had been Alice: I think we have about four. Louie, working on negotiating prior to that not Louie, but Louise Paul’s house. with the Province. They wanted Richard: No, that was not a veteran’s access to come across the reserve house. That was under Indian Af- with the two hydro lines up here. fairs. And also, they didn’t have no Alice: What about Qumuci’s? No? Your easements for telephone poles on the father’s also? reserve. So I went out and I counted Richard: That old house was. But any- the poles. And I got the land sur- way, they were all assured. And what veyed and got an approximate esti- they did is rather then have a Certifi- mate of how much land use they cate of Possession granted to these were using. So I took about ten veterans, they were assured by the houses and I multiplied what the agent that day that… he pointed up annual cost was for lights on them this direction and said, well that’s houses. And I figured out a half a your property and this is my prop- cent per kilowatt an hour. A half a erty. That’s how it was done. Every- cent. Then I multiplied by the body just assumed this was their number of houses on the reserve. property and that was theirs and so And the figures were astronomical. I on and so forth. So we got that out of couldn’t believe it, what I was look- the way back in ‘84 or ’85. It was in ing at on a piece of paper. So I pre- the fall of the year. And then after we sented that to the Chief, then Harold, got that out of the way, Tony and and the Council and they thought it Gobby, if I’m not mistaken, but I was far fetched. They couldn’t be- could be wrong. I got them searching lieve we’d get that kind of settlement. for documents in Halifax through the So we didn’t dicker with them. Well, Archives and also in Ottawa at the the year that I was elected Chief, National Archives. And we wanted there was two things in the back of to ascertain whether or not the infor- my mind. That certainly was one and mation that we’re getting from Re-

43 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

gional Office in Amherst, whether it’s 750 thousand dollars. And I said that accurate or not. And it was far out- was yesterday. Oh my God, he said, dated and it had been tampered with. what is it today? And I said well, Now I don’t want to get into men- there’s four pieces of land that we’re tioning names, but there was a lot of looking at. It’s close to 400 acres. And irregularities, a hell of a lot. And for he said, we better sign the agreement example, where ordinarily something today. Before, he said, you want the would be typed in, it would be whole Province back. And that’s the crossed out with pencil and some- God’s honest truth. So it went from— thing written in. That’s the kind of they were only getting 200 dollars. thing that’s going on. Numbers were Shawn. And for five years, they changed. For example, the width of never got five cents. So they were the area was changed from two getting 200 dollars a year. That’s all hundred feet to four hundred feet, they were getting. And that time that sort of thing. So when I compiled went back since from 1957 to 1984. all the data. I compiled the informa- That’s all they were getting on a tion from the boys, from their re- yearly basis. And I couldn’t believe it. search work. I took that information And you remember how they use to and I met with the Corporate Office have Christmas treats at Christmas here in Fredericton, the Solicitor and time? Well, that’s where the money the Vice President and finally the came from. See that and that little Chairman, Mr. Doucette. And they road that went behind that Irving thought that I was crazier than hell. garage. Down there at the old (pause) And I said, if you think that I’m END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE crazier than hell, get your ass off TAPE ONE SIDE TWO reserve property. I give you 48 hours Alice: I went to see Norma one day and notice, at which time, I’ll serve you she gave me a map dated 1912. And with an injunction. So the following it said that St. Mary’s was established day, I got a phone call from the probably around 1857, the old re- chairman. He wanted to talk and serve. And there was a bunch of wanted to sit down. So the price names on it. went up from half a million dollars to Richard: That was established then. 750 thousand in one day. He said, There was also established the same well it was half a million dollars time, across the river up by the yesterday, how did the price jump up Sheraton and the Mounties, like so? I said the longer you talk, it’s where that helicopter pad was, right going to cost you more. He said, well there. I’ll have to take it back to the—they Alice: But it showed me a map of down have a committee like the Premier’s the reserve. office right, like all the ministers— Richard: But it also should have quoted Intergovernmental committee. So he that, because at the same time. came back to me before the 48 hours Alice: It didn’t see that. was up again, the following day. He Richard: Peter and Louise—Peter Paul said yeah, I guess we could raise that from Woodstock and Louise Polchies

44 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

from Kingsclear—told me that a long She was slow. And she lived with time ago. And the same as Franklin’s Mokin up in this field, up here, father. Now his story is a little differ- orchard. Did you ever go up there by ent from that story, I believe. Franklin the reservoir? There’s an old founda- told me before he passed on. His tion there, like rocks. You know, mother, his late mother had the where you go in to the reservoir road. papers. And while Joe was alive, he There’s two roads and a field. There came up and got them off of her. And use to be a house there. Well before Joe got them and gave them to Peda all them trees grew up, you could see [Peter Paul]. And Peda was suppose up and around the Saint John River. to do the research. Now up to when And as far as way up Keswick, to Franklin died, he asked Harold to way down the Experimental Farm. look for them, to bring them down. These Hayes brothers, there were And he was going to give them to me three of them. They wanted that to work on. Now that land is owned property. Well they couldn’t get it. by eight people. And he was one of They wouldn’t sell. So they got them. And his two sisters and his Mokin drinking and the sister drink- brother. And there was Carl, there ing. And got him to make up some was Annette, Sylvia, my father, me, kind of paper, that if he married his Norma and that’s it, that owned that sister, he would give him land. So land. Because that land (pause) after, he—I don’t know how much he Alice: The old Reserve? had to drink. He certainly was inca- Richard: Yes, that went from Kapin’s, pacitated, because he turned around Morrison plot. Morrison owned to and he reneged on his promise to where that ditch use to be, down marry this girl, for the land. He there by Sullivans’ Bostonian Pizza ended up getting the land without is. Okay, George Hayes, he claimed having to marry the girl. And after he he owned that land, right there by got the land, he kicked them the hell the liquor store is right now. Use to off there. You see, and that’s—and call it (pause) And that property was that was Jim’s brother. Is Mokin, all Indian land. But how the Hayes Junior’s brother or not? got it was Homers uncle, Mokin. Alice: Frank Nash? Alice: And what was his real name? Richard: Yes. Yes it was. Homer and Richard: Mokin? It’s Frank Nash. Junior were first cousins, because Jim Alice: Frank Nash? and Junior’s father were brothers. Richard: He had a sister. I don’t know Alice: Because there was Jim, Steven, what her name was. Homer might Bobby. know it. Jim did tell me. Jim told me Richard: No, they’re his sons. the whole story about all his family. Alice: Are they his sons, Steven Nash? Like long before he died, we talked They’re his sons? Another mother? all the time. And he’d tell me stories, Richard: This Junior’s father, and when he was a young boy. Anyway, I Marjorie. Like Wendall Nash’s was telling you about this daughter, mother, her father. They were broth- she was deaf. She wasn’t all there. ers. There was Tom and old Steve—

45 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

that would be Junior’s father. They And his first wife was Mabel, she were his brothers, Jim’s. Jim’s broth- died. Tom moved out of there, he ers, everybody down, Burton down, moved up the hill. Then that house was all Jim’s sons and daughters. He was vacant for a good number of had thirteen. See, he was married years. It was vacant, just stood there, twice. Fourteen with the woman in nobody lived there. Okay, so up the Chipman and thirteen with (pause) road where Marjorie’s house was. And he committed bigamy and Right here next to the river was nobody knew about it. He was mar- Wiseman’s and Sammy’s house was ried to two women at the same time. beside the Wisemans—side of the That went on for years and years… road like. Alice: So anyway, going back to the old Alice: I can remember the… like reserve, back in 1912. The map that I Marjorie was here by the water. seen, there was like Tom Brooks Okay, Wisemans were right here and there, Sam Brooks. There was like I remember Saulis right here. Robert twenty-seven, twenty-eight homes Saulis over here, Steve Nash over down there. here, as you were coming in from the Richard: First off, Tom’s house was Irving, that road. And Natolin was right next to the river. And next to over here and the old school was that was George Wiseman’s house, over here. that was the biggest. Richard: Sammy lived there. Sammy Alice: Where did the Wiseman’s come lived right in the corner. Sammy and from? Bessie and there was, ah. I know all Richard: Germany. the names that was there. I would Alice: Germany? And they were Indi- have to see that map myself. I can go ans? back. I remember the Nashes, Richard: The woman he married was. Saulises, Sappiers, Sheppards... Alice: So they were squatters? Alice: Was there an Acquin down there Richard: Yes. too? I’m pretty sure I seen the name Alice: The houses that I remember was: Acquin on that map. Steve Nash, Robert Saulis, Marjorie Richard: Acquins lived with her father, Sheppard, the Wiseman’s and your mother’s… Natolin Jimmy. They are the only Alice: That was my mother’s grandfa- ones that I remember. The map that I ther. seen from 1912, there was more Richard: Don’t know if it’s her grandfa- people there. ther or father? Richard: Yes, I remember. Okay, first off, Alice: No, Charlie Meuse was her down by the river there’s Marjorie father. and her mother—but I barely remem- Richard: Ben was her grandfather. ber her father. The year he died was That’s Larry’s natural mother. the last I seen his boat. He had a Alice: Was Virginia? good size boat in the water. That was Richard: Yes, they lived with Ben and the year fifty, fifty-one. And right Mime. And that was right there, across from them was Tom Brooks. where they took that house. Where

46 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

they took that house, where Elsie use cement, that great big cement slab to live in. out in ‘no man’s land’ on the way to Alice: Right where Maliseet Drive is Minto? Half way down, on the left sitting now? That house was there? hand side. Melvin had a picture of Richard: That the one that Professor that. It’s a big picture. It’s an aerial and Maggie had when they first got photo of that whole area. And it was married. They moved that out of almost like a small village or small there to build Maliseet Drive and town. That’s where they kept prison- they got that new house. Okay, so ers of war. Germans. And they that’s where they were brought up shipped them in there by railroad. and then moved out of here in 1952. And that’s where they kept all the And she married that guy from prisoners. Not to many people know Connecticut. And a year after Norma that. And that’s where we got the married that McLean down Con- mostly predominantly German and necticut somewhere, they moved. Jewish settlers, in Fredericton, Saint There was Sheppards, and the John and Moncton. They were from Nashes, Brooks, Wisemans, Brooks, them families that were at that prison Saulis, Nash, Sappier, and Punchin camp then. They were rescued. But [Saul Polchies] lived there too, before I’m not disputing what Josephine, he moved up the hill. They built Elsie, Pat and your mother, as to them houses. Older houses, like my what they have said. I’m just saying grandmother’s. This reserve was that the records that I have seen, that established in 1937, this one up here. this reserve was acquired for reserve But it wasn’t declared officially on purposes in 1937. And there was the record as a reserve ‘till 1948. strong objection to that. Now preced- Alice: I think I heard my mother saying ing that, it could have been 1932 or that. They didn’t move up here until 1933. I’m not excluding that. Because 1935 or 1932 or ’33. Because I did a what happened was the people that tape on my mother and Josephine, are suppose to be our neighbours, Pat. And when they come back from strongly opposed this area being the war it was 1933. This reserve had designated as a reserve. And all it already twelve or eighteen houses was, was rock. It was nothing but already. I forgot which number now. rock quarry. Mr. Howe, here—God Richard: Well the first house was Ron’s rest his soul, he died three winter’s father and his brother. There were ago—use to tell me all about this only four houses. place. That was pure, genuine, solid Alice: And Pat said when the men came slate. And we had Forbes and Sloat back from overseas, they were given come in and they couldn’t dynamite workshops that they had to live in. for risk of blowing up foundations on Richard: What they were, there was the old houses. Because rock, if you workshops in behind the old houses. dynamite it, it vibrates where ever. It When the government disbanded the is like earthquake, it just falls like a Burpee campsite, which is on the channel. Say like so. That’s the way Minto Road. Did you ever see that basically dynamite goes. Like it goes

47 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

to where ever it’s the hardest. And plumbing, but didn’t have indoor that’s all. We had a (pause) it cost one toilets. They didn’t have no insula- hundred fifty dollars an hour. And tion. this was back in the sixties, when we Alice: Did they have electricity? got that done. Today it would be Richard: Yes, but it was that cheap wire. three or four hundred dollars per Rats would eat it. And if your house hour. We had a ripper. I was talking didn’t burn before the rat got electro- to John McKinney, who was our cuted, you were either left with two engineer. He owned a project engi- things. The rat would get electro- neering. When they were surveying cuted and stunk up your house or this land up here. Because we were your house would burn down. going to go in what is now Bear Alice: What about Indian Agent, they Lane. And come back down and join talk about Whalen, what was he like? up way down there by either your Richard: An asshole. And the one before mother’s or where Betty Jean built. him was twice as bad. We were going to come out there and Alice: Who was Gorley? we were going to put in one hundred Richard: He was after Whalen. Whalen and ten lots there. When they sur- thrived off the Indians. He made veyed that land and they done soil money off the Indians. He was an ex- test. See soil test, they don’t go down RCMP officer and he retired a mil- this way, they go down in an angle. lionaire. And all the goods and That way they can cover more soil. services that were provided to the When they went around that reser- Indians along the Saint John River, voir, there was nobody. And nobody went to his personal gain. All the would touch them for one million farm produce, the animals, the farm dollars liability insurance. Like supplies, lumber supplies, army, air brokers, insurance companies, and force, navy, RCMP supplies, the they wouldn’t even look at that. And surplus, he got them, gave them to even if they did proceed with that the Indians and paid himself for subdivision plan. It was only a pre- services rendered. Vegetables, beef, liminary plan and if had they done it, sheep, all them things, he paid him- nobody, no contractor would have self for services. taken it. Alice: He built himself a house up Alice: Anyway, we’re off track here. Kingsclear. Richard: Going back to the old reserve. Richard: He built a house right there When the first batch of houses were where—band eventually bought the established on this reserve, there was Lewis estate—where the Lewis’ four houses. And the following year parents (pause) there were eight. Alice: And Gorley, he built a house Alice: What were the houses like? Were where the bank is now, down the they solid? hill? Richard: Yes, they were solid, but they Richard: No, he built a house up Sky- weren’t insulated. They didn’t have line Acres. indoor toilets. They had indoor Alice: Skyline? I thought my mother

48 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

mentioned that he had built a house resign and somebody else would be where the bank is sitting now. voted in. And the counsellors also, if Richard: No, it might have been the Chief resigned, the councillor McKinnon. His office was over resigned to. corner of Regent and George. Richard: It was unreal, like over my life Alice: How much money did people get span. Like I basically got acquainted when Whalen was in? with all of them. And I always said if Richard: Didn’t get nothing. I had ten years to serve as Chief, if I Alice: Wasn’t there any welfare back couldn’t do for this community in ten then? Didn’t you have an Indian years, what I liked to have done. And Chief here? the only thing I had left on my Richard: Yes, but the first Chief I re- agenda was, I wanted to have a member was a toss up—because I school house. If I go back to what I asked a lot of people over the years, campaigned for, back in ’84. There how come they use to have clam are three things that you have to have chowder—between Andrew Brooks in any community to have viability of and Paul Paul’s father, Arthur Paul. self-sufficiency. Number one is edu- And in summer they would have cation, number two is economic clam chowder. And everybody development and three is employ- would bring their bowl and spoon ment. If you have them three compo- and they’d have clam chowder out in nents, then you’ll survive in any the yard. We use to wonder what that community. You can be self-suffi- was. I’d ask somebody and they cient. And they’re doing it in other wouldn’t know. It was election and parts of the country, throughout back in them days (pause) One time Canada. Oromocto and St. Mary’s had the Alice: When you were growing up, did same Chief. And then another time your father tell you stories? St. Mary’s and Kingsclear had the Richard: Oh yeah, he use to tell me same Chief. And that’s what they call stories. But not as much as we use to custom, or traditional elections. They hear at Frank’s. That’s where the done away with that and they went older stories—and then of course to elected. And when they first when I spent most of year and a half enacted election of Chiefs, it was for up in Tobique and I heard a lot of a four year period. Well people stories there. And all my summers, complained that’s too long a period when I was growing up, we spent up of time. They didn’t want somebody in Woodstock. That’s where my in there. For the most part, it was too grandparents were. And we got to much heat for any one man to han- hear a lot of stories from different dle. sources there. Because there was a lot Alice: I was reading in one of those more older Indians there than there papers I have at home—a hand out was here, back when we were grow- or whatever you want to call it. It ing up. And then over the years, it stated that who was Chief, if the would reverse. We’d have more here Chief couldn’t take it, he would then up there. Now it’s back to about

49 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

even. But you know there’s so many hours. No way humanly possible, but old stories, tales and folklore. The it was done. And there was another main thing I always say is people… one that Tom Brooks told me. Tom what I noticed the most of is, is our and I use to be real good friends. And language and our culture. It’s not he was saying that Punchin’s [Saul’s] where I would like to see it. We’re old house—that would be Goalie’s losing it, and we’re losing it fast. mother and father’s house. They Every time somebody passes away, were all playing cards late at night, mark another ‘x’ beside his or her playing poker. And Tom said—well, name. And then you say, like who’s he lost his first wife Mabel, he hadn’t the next going to be to go. ‘Cause been married to Geraldine. Anyway every time somebody dies, the lan- they were playing cards this one guage (pause) I talk it good and I night, this knock came on the door. understand it good, but there’s And Punchin [Saul]—he hadn’t lost nobody to talk it to. his eye sight, because he was playing Alice: That’s the same with me. If you poker too. And he said come in. He were talking all Indian, I could always sold a little beer and wine. If understand every word pretty well. he didn’t drink it he sold it. So any- Ronald Paul talks Indian in his tape way, they just assumed that some- and I translated it. Just like my body was just coming to get a bottle mother, the same thing. I laughed. of wine or a bottle of beer. Tom was Richard: It depends on how they tell it, telling this story and he said some- like a lot of them. The stories I hear one spoke up and said, Ckuwye Notlin and Punchin and Pete talking ksaha (Come in). And this person about, they are not meant to be came in and nobody recognized him. funny. And Tom said, I don’t know if it was Alice: Sometimes it’s how they are said. Kolel (Clara) or Mary Guiggey—be Richard: Graydon Nicholas use to say Franklin’s mother—and Melvin’s that, growing up as a kid in Tobique. mother. One of them had their cards They would all get together up there like this, and was going to take—say and see who could tell the best story. they have three of a kind and throw And every time I listened to them two away, keep the cards here—one tapes or I hear old stories it reminds fell on the floor. And she went to pick me of what he use to say. About how it up and when she looked, this guy people use to communicate and how that had come in was sitting there. they use to socialize. That would be One leg was a horse’s leg. Well, they socially acceptable to tell the biggest looked at this person and nobody story. I guess like, that’s what people knew who it was. He didn’t look like lived for. The most common one is a white man. They didn’t know if he about a rabbit. That somebody died was an Indian or not. Certainly he and sent a messenger and the mes- understood when they said Ksaha senger was a rabbit. And it went (Come in). And they kept on playing. from Portabello to Grand Lake and And somebody offered him tea, back, in a matter of two or three

50 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Kotuwapu ti (Would you like some head back, like this [away from the tea)? And apparently he just nodded window], so that man or thing his head [yes]. And when this person couldn’t see him. So he said, if that wasn’t looking, someone went like thing tries to do something to me, that [pointed at him]. And two other I’m gonna fix him. So he took the people looked at it. They got up and poker and stuck the poker in the apparently they went into the bed- stove. And he’s saying to himself room. And they came out with a (pause) he tells the story like he’s crucifix and a rosary and that person telling it for real. Then this person just got up and left. Another time disappears. So in the meantime, Pete (pause) Did you ever hear this story is watching this iron and its red hot. of the chopped off horseman? Well And as soon as he takes it out and Carol-Ann seen him twice. Peter seen looks at it—it was shining orange, him once, right here in this corner. just flaming red, heat eh— a knock We been here twenty years this comes at the window. He looks and coming June. And Carol-Ann was there’s this headless man, and he going to High School. This use to be goes to go poke it with the iron. And her room right here [indicating across apparently ghosts are suppose to be from the kitchen]. And the door use scared of fire, but I don’t know. I to come in through that way. And our don’t know how the heck that’s bedroom was over there and the boys suppose to be. If Satan is the devil, bedroom was in the corner. So she and he lives in Hell—it’s suppose to got up this morning—and we didn’t be a fire of eternity—why he’d be have the basement fixed up then— scared of fire. But apparently that and she was brushing her hair in the was his thought [Pete’s]. I asked a living room and she looked out question one time, how come he down there and she seen this man always wore this thing on his hand. walking down by the school yard. He wore this great, big, leather, John-John’s house, Sonya’s house double buckle thing on his hand. and Christine’s house, they weren’t And his wife Mary told me, she said, there then. Only Francis and Pauline. Sonny, if he took that off you can see So she told us about it, when Homer an imprint of a hand. She called him told her what it was, she got scared. ‘go-go man’. She was a white But then I told her about Melvin’s woman, and she called him ‘go-go father. One night he couldn’t sleep, man’. And that’s where he grabbed restless. He was sitting at the win- him and he couldn’t use that hand. dow—like I use to sit right there And I asked him one time in Indian, myself—and anyway, Pete was tell me the story of what the devil did looking out the window. He had the to you. And he told me, just like what stove going—this was one, two I said. Today you don’t hear stories o’clock in the morning and it was like that. The same as Faye [his wintertime. And he seen this man sister]. We thought she was going come up on a horse. It was all black, crazy one time. I was about thirteen, didn’t have no head. So he put his she must have been about—she

51 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

would be 51 or 52 now—she must surface water and it comes through have been about ten or eleven. And the rocks from that old rock quarry, she woke up early in the morning, in back of old Mr. Howes’ Kennels. around four o’clock and she was Its underground and it comes up screaming Mom, Mom, like that. She over here. There’s none that come up said (pause) well where our house over there, because it’s too high. was—to the right of us was Robert Water don’t run uphill, it’s got to and to the left was Evangeline. Next come down hill. Well she was getting to her was Sam and Bessie and then there and she said you’d swear to your mother and father, and then God that someone was between them Eugene and Elizabeth. There was no rocks smoking a cigarette. Because Maliseet Drive then and there was there was lots of smoke coming from like woods back there and toilets. there. And she said, do you suppose And Faye was looking at these little there is little people there. And I said men. And they were taking my it wouldn’t be the first time that I mother’s clothes and putting braids heard that story. Now she seen the on all the sleeves, on the clothesline. smoke puffs, and that’s the first thing And my mother told her, in Indian, to that came to her mind. Because she go to sleep and not to talk crazy like said her grandmother talked about that. She thought that Faye was them down in Gagetown. Now Faye, dreaming. She got up the next morn- you could ask Faye and she could tell ing, my mother, she came in scream- you she remembers it. But Glen, ing. And she started laughing, she Alan, Claudie and Betty don’t re- said, Faye must have been right. My member it. But I remember it and I father said, why? Go out back and bet you my old man would remem- look at the clothes. Of course they ber it. And there was somebody else were frozen, because it was in the who seen them one time, was it wintertime. But those clothes were all Norma or Sylvia… knotted up so tight, that they had to Alice: That’s why I want to see your be brought in the house and father. I bet he’s got a bunch of good unthawed and undone. But Faye stories. seen them little men. Richard: Well, there’s a lot of good Now here one day, she was sitting by stories and there’s a lot of sad stories the window, there was a Lazy-Boy too. Like you take Whalen and [Chair] in that corner. And one day Gorley. Dave Gorley was an honest she was sitting there. I don’t know and sincere man, but the guy he had where I was. But I came home, she working for him, George somebody, said you’ll never guess what I seen. he was an asshole. But Gorley, if he And I said no, probably not. You could help you, he’d help you. know this elm tree down here by that Whalen—the only store that you brook, and there’s two big rocks there could go to was Bowlen’s. And you and the only water that surfaces is couldn’t get no sugar, you couldn’t over there where Peter use to have get any molasses and couldn’t get his house. Its underground like yeast cake. If you owned a dog, you

52 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

had to get rid of it. And if you owned Richard: Look at Harold, a lot of people a cat, you had to get rid of it. If you like said a lot of bad things about had a car, you had to get rid of it. him. I’ve never said nothing bad And the reason for that is, the car about Harold. I had no intentions of took money for gas, the dog ate left running against him. If he had just over food or the cat. And sugar, stopped and listened to the people, molasses and yeast were for making as to what people were saying. homemade beer, and you weren’t Harold went out of his way. Nobody allowed that. You were allowed to had telephones and there were get pork, potatoes, flour. And you probably only four television sets on were only allowed, the least I seen reserve. He phoned up Woodstock to that you could get was two dollars help someone on reserve that needed and thirty-five cents. help. It had to come out of his own Alice: I remember my mother saying pocket. He’d lend a family fifteen or when I was taping her, Josephine and twenty dollars until the welfare Pat. That Andrew Paul was Chief at cheque come in and you could pay it. the time. And my father got burnt in And I know he got stuck a lot of Houlton at that time. And I remem- money over the years being a good ber that and he was in the hospital Samaritan. And I’ve always said for about a year. And Donald, Donnie Harold could have been Chief up to Solomon was Chief at the time in the day he died if he wanted to. I Kingsclear. And my father told him really do because of all (pause) He that there was no help from the was doing a good job and he was Agent, because they had six kids at always listening to people. Paul and I that time. My father told Donnie this, got into a fight and I told Harold my father got help from Kingsclear. about it. And I said either he goes or I Two hundred dollars a month, plus go. And he gave Paul hell and said, milk. I couldn’t believe that, because leave Sonny alone, he is doing a good Andrew Paul was Chief at the time. job, I am the Chief and you take it up And my mother said they only got with me. He would try to run the like sixteen dollars. And he had to go show when he was drinking and he with her to make sure that she got never come back after that. what she was suppose to get, instead Alice: Anyway this is the end of my of buying junk stuff. That was sad. tape here Son, for now. END OF TAPE

53 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

54 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

4. Sliced apples on a thread

THERESA SACOBIE PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION

…way back then, I remember Mom use to mention that there was a flu epidemic going on. And it killed a lot of people and a lot of people died.

…But I’ll tell you, with that generation back then, they preserved a lot of this stuff, berries, apples. I remember stringing apples, the sliced apples on a thread and they would hang them up to dry. And when they wanted to make apple sauce or pies, they soaked them over night and they would be just as fresh. And berries they use to lay papers in an area, you know to dry them out. So they really had to struggle a lot in them times, because money was really not that plentiful years back.

Theresa: Now the first thing that my that had a lot of powers, you know. parents told me, that rock was right You know, witches powers. And there. By the road, as you go down that’s what he did. So after he threw the hill, past the old cemetery. And that rock away, that’s what he said, every time this person drove by in a wherever this lands, the land will sled or wagon, he would almost never prosper for anybody. And upset. Because years ago, they use to there’s been, there was a house there, travel by horse and buggy in those and an orchard, and a farmer. And days. And so one time he got so mad. Taber was the name of that family He told his wife don’t look at me, I’m that lived in that house, the time that gonna get rid of this rock. That he threw that rock there. And sure woman looked the other way, and enough, nothing ever grew on his well, he did get rid of that rock. And property. And his trees never had any when he threw it, that's where it apples or anything growing on them landed. He said wherever this rock trees. Everything just didn’t prosper lands, the property there will never at all. But you know it seems so prosper. strange now. Indians, years ago, we Alice: And who was this man? always believed in trying to do good Theresa: I couldn’t even tell you who it to others. They shared a lot of their was. I’ve asked my mother, but years food or whatever they had, you back they use to have mostly nick- know, in abundance. Like, if a hunter names. But he was one of the people went and killed a deer or a moose,

55 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 4.1: Theresa Sacobie (photo courtesy of Edith Paul).

56 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

they shared that meat among family. spend summers there in Westfield, And that’s the way we were brought just on the outskirts of Saint John. up too. You know, if we knew of And there was a family that owned anyone that needed any kind of help that property where my grandpar- or services, we always had to go and ents had built a little shack. You help them in some way or another. I know, just for the summer months. remember when my parents use to And he hated Indians. And when my buy a lot of things. You know, like a grandparents left in the fall to come whole pig, you know, or a half of before the school opened, you know one. And if any one of our family again, he burned that building down members needed it, like his sisters or and he didn’t want no Indians on his brothers, whoever. He would share property at all. that food with him. Or fish, whatever Alice: So it didn’t belong to the Indians they had a lot of. But you don’t see then. that today. And another story I Theresa: No. So anyway, what hap- should tell you too. Now this hap- pened before the following year, pened when we use to live in when my grandparents moved back Westfield. I was small then at the again. They didn’t know anything time. And my grandparents use to about it, that little shack was burned

Plate 4.2: Taber's Field (photo by Viktoria Kramer).

57 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

down. And that summer—and all he another out. Okay, you see, that was had was one son [the landowner]. their policy a long time ago, they’d And when that boy—I don’t know help one another. So this man, he had how old he was—and he got struck powers, because a lot of them really by a car and he died. And when he believed in witchcraft years ago. And planted—he was a farmer too. And he told my grandmother, he said, there was another farmer that lived Kate, would you come and help me right, you know, just like a driveway fill in the heel and toe of the snow- and when he planted his seeds they shoe. He said, I have a rush order. He grew up so much. And his wouldn’t said, would you help me. Kate said, grow at all. well I can’t, because I have a rush Alice: Because of him burning that order of baskets to do as well. He building? said, as she was leaving the house to Theresa: Because of him hurting an- go home, and he said, well you will other, you know, an Indian. So any- never get your order done either. how, after that, that man couldn’t do And sure enough... grammy Tomah enough for my grandparents. He use to tell that story to us. And when would take them to church every I got home Grammy said, my eyes Sunday. started failing. And she said, I could Alice: So did anything change for him not work and I couldn’t get my work by doing that? done up. Theresa: Yes. Alice: So what year would that have Alice: I guess he just had to show a little been? good. I guess. Theresa: It was quite a while ago. That Theresa: And it wasn’t because my was when they were still living down grandparents cursed them or any- the hill. This was where most of the thing. But it just proves to some reserve was, down in that little area. people, you can not hurt another And so that was all right. So that person. It only comes back on your- man had a sore throat. Because in self. I’ve heard that so many times Grammy’s dream that night she and I’ve seen it. Sort of experience it, dreamt of this man that cursed her, you know, in some way or another. and she said it seemed that I was No matter who you try to hurt, you falling down a hill. And she said only get it back or another one in there was no trees or nothing, just a your family. tiny little bush. And where I grabbed Alice: Or you’re the one that hurts in it, as I was tumbling down and it the end. I believe that also. broke. And so when it broke, she Theresa: Well another one, this is my said, I could see that man’s face mother’s mother, Grammy Tomah. laughing at me. So I just threw that Her name was Catherine and her twig and it landed on his neck. That’s husband’s name was Frank Tomah. how he happened to have a sore Years ago they use to help one an- throat. Anyhow, the following day he other. Like if you or I got a big order sent his wife to go ask Grammy of something, you would help one Tomah to cure him. So she told that

58 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

woman, on one condition, I’ll go and thing. cure him if he doesn’t do anymore Alice: So is that witchcraft? Is that still witchcraft on me too. So she went here? over and asked him and told him. He Theresa: I think that some are still said okay. So Grammy went over, she practising it. According to what I’ve gave him a glass of water. Told him heard, they have them seances. And to drink this and this will cure you. according to some of them (pause) But don’t think if you try anything Alice: Right here in Kingsclear? like that again at me… Theresa: Yes. Alice: So they both had powers? Alice: Band members? Theresa: Yes. Theresa: It’s the same way, like in Alice: Working against one another? spirits. I still feel that they do return Theresa: See, that’s what you got to do. to your home, because we have People try to curse you on some- experienced that as well.

Plate 4.3: Mrs. Kate Tomah. Kate was Theresa's grandmother. She was noted for her hospitality and for her stamina in "peddling" baskets throughout the countryside in the dead of winter (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1879).

59 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: What do you mean by spirits? Same way with Erica, she goes upstairs Theresa: Well, any person that died, you and has a room up there next to know, in the family. Now one day Karen’s. And one night she woke up here, I think it was last summer. at two in the morning she seen Bill When Fred and Liz, we were all standing there in the room. Talk talking in the kitchen and as they about a kid coming in to my bed- were leaving—I had my chesterfield room. He said, Grampy was in my on that side of the room. And when room Mom. She said, you don’t have Liz went by, she seen Bill laying to worry, he’s just making sure that down there. you’re okay. Alice: But it wasn’t a bad spirit though? Alice: I believe that. Theresa: No. I think, myself, I think Theresa: Yes. I believe that too. Now it’s they do return to see how the family the same thing that happened to me is if their troubled or something. I when I was in the hospital. When I think they come and warn you. first went in there, Bill was already in Alice: When I was working for Gignoo the hospital and I was only about after Joe died, I had to work night four doors away from him on the time. So I sleep on the couch during same floor. And Sheila and Randy the night. So in my dream, I’m there, came in to the hospital with me. And laying there on the couch. And Joe is Sheila said, I’m going to stay with laying there with me and Richard is you until you get your room, so that at the end of our feet. But it was like you will know where you are. Any- a good feeling. So he must have come way, whatever stuff they gave me, back to make sure we were all right. Shawn, it made me sick. It made my And we were all there together, you stomach feel oozy. So anyway, I know, the three of us. I was even wanted to throw up. And just as soon telling my mother about that. as I laid on the bed, I started to throw Theresa: Now Laurie and him were up. And it just seem to lodge in my sleeping in Bill’s room after he died, throat, and I could start to feel my because Laurie stayed here. It was eyes going bulgy. And I heard this just before Bill died, he asked Laurie voice calling me, my name is George to move back home. He said, I don’t and I’m here to tell you you’re not want to see my grandson having a ready to come here yet and you’re hard time living somewhere else, so going back. And when he said back, ask her to come home. So I did. And all that stuff came out and I was all after he died, Laurie fixed up that right after. room for him [Hank] and her. So one Alice: Really. That’s something. night she said, I was reading a story Theresa: Yes. You know we often think, for him and all of a sudden this book like me, I often think how some flew over. I looked back and I didn’t people will know if they’re going to see anything. But he did. He said, die. You know a lot of times, a mem- look, look who’s standing in there. ber of the family will tell you, I’m not He said, don’t be scared, he’s only going to live very long and this must here to see that you’re all right. happen to them too.

60 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: It must. bed, for two or three nights. There Theresa: I know another time, when I was nobody in the room with me. It was in there. I was down on the third was scary, because I expected any floor and God, Shawn, I woke up at time, for me to see something. three in the morning. I had to go use Alice: So tell me about the ‘little peo- the bathroom and I had to carry that ple’? thing with me, that I.V. After I got out Theresa: Well, the only thing is, only from the washroom, I went and got what I hear from others. Now in bed again. And all of a sudden I Rodney was one of them and Sy was heard this voice, and it said, how do another one that went down to the you feel now? And I looked around, brook. Just about to where that and this woman next to me was school (pause) Do you know where sleeping and she was even snoring. the school is? And I thought at first the nurse came Alice: Yes. in. Sometimes, you know how your Theresa: They use to have a little path curtains are drawn. So I grabbed a where Frank—her father use to be curtain and looked behind it, the the one to look after the school, you nurse wasn’t there. Well at three in know, to do the maintenance work— the morning, well anyway, that was and he use to go back and forth all right. One night again, that hap- across that brook. And he seen them pened to me again. And this was first and he mentioned it to the around 4:30 in the morning. I just got family. I imagine and that’s how we back in bed and somebody said, how happen to know about these little about your beadwork, and I thought, green men. But you know what boys gee, who would know about my are like. You know, they were beadwork except for my mother, and younger. Rodney, he was only about it was a woman’s voice. seven or eight years old when he use Alice: Oh, really. to go down the brook for fishing. Theresa: Both times. Along that little brook, Sy and a Alice: So do you believe that was your whole bunch of them. mother? Alice: Is it sometimes like what children Theresa: Yes. So she just more or less see, that a grownup can’t? checked to see how I was. Every time Theresa: Well, that has a lot to do with it now, I go to the hospital, I fear that. as well. Like an animal as well, they Alice: You fear that? can sense things. So anyway, they Theresa: Yes. I fear it now, going to the have a funny lingo [green men], hospital. One time there, when I was according to what Rodney was taken there, this last time, I was in telling me. He said they jibber-jabber. there. I think it was in July. They And he said, they got mad at us for were taking a tour to St. Anne de going close to them. He said, we tried Beaupres, our crowd here. And they to catch them. And he said, they just were leaving on the eleventh and I picked the twigs in the bushes there didn’t come out until the twelfth. and they kept throwing them at us. I And I was in the same room, same told him, well you better be careful,

61 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

when one of them hits you. Because Tobique and (pause) Where else do they must have a little curse or they have twins? We use to watch something to hurt you in some way. them play. And she said years ago So don’t get too close to them. the houses were not completed. And Alice: I’ve heard a little bit about them, there would be little holes where the but not much. To me, I thought they sun would shine through, the rays, looked the sun rays. And she said when they After (pause) play, they hang these little doll Theresa: And they’re only about twelve clothes on these sun rays. inches high. They’re not very big. Alice: Well, I think they do, twins, when And he said they were green in I stop and think about it. colour and we seen them eating Theresa: I remember when Cheryl’s leaves. And I said that is probably kids were small, they had powers. why they are green. They use to like Conrad, but they Alice: It’s strange, everybody has their never cared too much for Trevor. own interpretation of it, like these They’d go stand by the stairway, ‘little people’. I’m working on a tape Trevor would come tumbling down. right now and I haven’t got to his But he wouldn’t get hurt, but every part yet, but he tells me that they’re time they’d go stand by the stairway there. Even down our way. and Trevor would tumble down. So Theresa: I don’t know, I’ve never heard. Cheryl said one time, Mom—I’ll Now Cyril goes down a lot in that never forget this. I was always scared area, he’s always fishing. And he of Kenny. Years back, no matter what said, Mom, I haven’t seen them Kenny wanted, she said. So one time around last summer. I use to go she said that little Shawna was in down in that brook, he said, whether they’re living room. She said to they got scared away or what, I don’t Kenny, you are not going to ruin our know I haven’t seen them since. They Christmas this year. And she just just disappear maybe or they move took her hand and swiped it like that. on further somewhere, I don’t know. And he couldn’t move his head and It seems strange to have this appear he couldn’t speak, he couldn’t move. to a person. But as I say, you got to Alice: That was one of the twins? watch. Even if they do attack you, Theresa: Yes. that little twig might cause a little Alice: Really? damage. Theresa: One time I went down there. Alice: I don’t think I want to see things Cheryl always asked me down there, like that. to help her with her knitting or Theresa: I’ll tell you who has powers whatever she was working on. And are twins, twins have a lot of power. she was making a pair of socks. Alice: Really? Anyway, she said, Mom why don’t Theresa: Yes. I use to listen to my you come down this afternoon and grandmother, my dad’s mother, and bring your knitting with you. So they had twins. That was a set of anyway this was about one o’clock or twins. They’re in Woodstock and so. She asked if I had any lunch yet

62 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

and I said, no I never, I didn’t feel times when I’m working in the hungry. What if I make you a sand- kitchen and I’d go stand by the wich? I said, if you got peanut butter, phone and it would ring. You just I’ll have a sandwich with you. have that feeling, that it’s going to Anyway, in Woodstock, I don’t know happen. And another time, one time, whose kids they were, but anyway, I woke up about 2:30 in the morning. Bill said this door kept blowing open Bill was in a rush to get some of my every time the wind blew. And he material ready for me, ash material. said they’d get one of those twins to He said, why don’t you go to bed for close it. He said—so anyway I sup- a while, until I get some of this pose that little girl got tired of run- material shaved and split for you and ning back and forth. She said if I then you can gauge it out. I said okay close this now, you’ll never open it. and came and laid down. I woke up, And sure enough, they had to take and Shawn, I started crying. And I the frame right off to open that door. didn’t know what I was crying for. So this is the powers that they have. When I went into the kitchen he said, But I think that power is worked what happened to you. I said, I don’t through the mind with twins, really know Bill, I just woke up crying and anybody. You know every person has something is going to happen today. I that ability, if you only develop it said something is going to break. through the mind. Something that makes me want to Alice: Yes. I think I have to agree with cry, something is going to happen. that. And sure enough, when the kids came Theresa: Another time, Bill use to drink back from school—because Anita’s a lot. And so one time, he went down kids use to stay here with us. And to the basement, he had a bottle and there was Sy, Krista and Rodney he seen Don Solomon walking. playing by the stairway here. And I END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE had a shelf there and I had all my TAPE ONE SIDE TWO ceramic pieces there on that shelf. So Theresa: So anyway, Bill came upstairs anyway, this great big swan that I and he said, you know something had bought from the lady where I funny happened. And I said, what. was learning ceramics, it broke, and He said that bottle just slipped it broke into a thousand pieces. And through my hands. And I just there I was, crying, picking it up. thought of that, in my mind. There was other thing that broke too. Alice: That’s what you were thinking. I just threw them out. Theresa: I was just thinking, I hope he So this is what happens to me when drops it. something is going to go wrong. Alice: And he did? Now before Glen got into an acci- Theresa: He did, these are just some of dent, I tossed and turned. I knew the mind powers that you can de- something was going to go wrong, I velop. had that feeling. It’s just a warning, Alice: Yes. I think it’s how we think. that’s all it is. Now I could always Theresa: You can develop that. There’s detect if it’s my father’s side of the

63 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

family, or my mother’s side of the just pushed it up with his hand, it family, if anybody is to die. Like on opened right up. So they went in and my father’s side, I smell roses. And they had their dance. Henry Solomon it’s so strong, you could smell that was another one that was very tal- fragrance. But if it was my mother’s ented. He was a beautiful singer, he side, it was lilacs. So I could almost sounded exactly as that Vaughn tell who was going to pass away. Monroe. Henry could play any string Alice: It’s funny, when I was talking to instrument, the organ or the piano, Charles Solomon, he said when he he was talented. So he was among in smelled roses or incense, there is a that band or whatever they called presence there and it’s the Lord. themselves back then. While they That’s what he told me. Is that true? were dancing, this person came in all Theresa: Yes. I think that each person dressed up in a black tuxedo style. has their own intuition, and you And he kept going around and really go by them. somebody noticed that one leg was a Alice: Intuition, beliefs, whatever you horses hoof. And they all screamed want to call them. So what other and this devil or whoever—because stories do you know? they can go into different forms. And Theresa: The only story that I know, when he went through that wall, he that happened years back. See my left a hole right in the wall. father use to play violin and they use Alice: Why would anything like that to have dances down the hill there. appear if they were just having a They had a hall there. dance? Alice: What kind of dances? Theresa: Well, I suppose they were told Theresa: Well, I suppose any kind of not to. So they had to quit right there, dance. they were that scared. And I don’t Alice: Square dances? think my father ever played the Theresa: Square dances. fiddle again. When we were growing Alice: It wasn’t Indian dancing was it? up we never seen Dad play the Theresa: Well, it could have been Indian fiddle. dancing too. Because they use to do a Alice: It must have scared him so bad. lot of that years back. One time they Theresa: I suppose he got scared. couldn’t get into the hall, the priest Alice: Tell me a little about Kingsclear. had locked the hall with a padlock. Was Kingsclear, back then, way back And Amos was one of twins, the then, was it here or was it somewhere other twin died when it was a baby. else? He only weighed about a pound and Theresa: No. It was, as I mentioned a half when he was born. They even before, all the Indian people use to had to pack a shoe box with cotton live down past the old graveyard. batten, because they never had to go Alice: Where would that be, the old to hospitals. So anyway, when they graveyard? Is it down by the river? couldn’t get in—and he was just Theresa: You know where Reggie small—they told Amos, we can’t Solomon lives? It’s between the open it with this ruler, this lock. He Church and Reggie’s. That’s where

64 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

that graveyard is. you have all those different Reserves Alice: Did the people from Kingsclear in this area. use to occupy Wolastoq area and did Alice: So everybody settled some place they move down here later on? else because of lack of work? Theresa: They could have, I’ve never Theresa: Because years back, people heard that. There’s an old Burial didn’t have the chance to work off Ground near Nelsons. the reserves. Alice: In front of Nelson’s, where he’s at Alice: Did Kingsclear and St. Mary’s now? have the same Chief at one time? Do Theresa: You know, as you go down the you know anything about that? hill, where that alcohol and drug Theresa: No, I don’t know anything building is. Well, there is a hill there, about that. that’s where that old graveyard is. Alice: Someone had mentioned that, or And that people always mention, St. Mary’s and Oromocto. One of never to do any excavations on that. them anyway, might have had the Alice: But haven’t they? same Chief for a while. Theresa: No. Theresa: If I knew you were coming, I Alice: No? would have looked over my photo Theresa: Because at that time, way back album. Like I have all the priests that then, I remember Mom use to men- have been here and all the school tion that there was a flu epidemic teachers way back in the 1800’s. going on. And it killed a lot of people Whenever I find that book, I’ll have and a lot of people died. to show you, because I have them in Alice: Now just here, or was it all over? my album. I save everything. Theresa: Mostly, I think, it was on this Alice: Do you have old pictures? Were Reserve that they had it. you around St. Mary’s like when you Alice: Because one of the men I was were younger? talking to, Ronald Paul, he mentions Theresa: No. an epidemic. He calls it the Black Alice: You stayed right up here? Plague, Small Pox. And it wiped out Theresa: Because I tell you, we were a lot of Indians. Not just like St. never allowed off the reserve. Mary’s, but Gagetown, Kingsclear, Alice: Is it because of the parents? Woodstock. Theresa: It was just the parents, I think, Theresa: Well Really those people all being that strict. And they always live up here in that small area, down told us, like if we ever went up the where the old Reserve was. And a lot hill, that someone would take us. of the houses were right back to Alice: More protective than anything where that fence is, you know, them else? buildings. And a lot of them, when Theresa: There was hardly anyone that they did move, because they had no had a car back then. Until my Uncle means of work and they moved Ben, that would be Madeline Solo- away. A lot of people moved from mon’s husband. See Uncle Ben mar- here to Tobique, Woodstock, St. ried twice. He was married to Lizzy Mary’s and Oromocto. So that’s how Nash’s daughter, and Florence was

65 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

her name—that’s her picture there and Henry Solomon, that would be [on the wall], in that dark skirt. See Sarah’s children. So they lived in that that’s a picture of my mother, way on house next door to my grandmoth- that end. Then the second one is er’s and Molly Polonsis (Francis), Frank Sappier’s sister. The third one, and their house burnt down. And there with the dark skirt, that was Frank Sappier’s and Leo Solomon’s Florence, that was Ben Tomah’s first were the other two in that area that wife. That would be Connie’s mother, didn’t get burnt. Because all they had married to Joe. And that’s my moth- was the pump at that time and peo- er’s sister Sarah, she died when she ple kept pumping water. Finally they was (pause) Everybody tells me I couldn’t get anymore, it went dry. look like my mother. It was sad really You could even see some of the cats to think of how the Indians had to and dogs on fire. survive. You really wouldn’t believe Alice: Did it kill people? it, when you hear stories about years Theresa: No. But they lost everything. and years back. Now I can remember They didn’t have much. when I was just young, that was Alice: You must have made, I guess to when my father built a house up live, a lot of baskets? here. His was the only one here and Theresa: You know, every house that we weren’t even allowed to go down you use to go to, they always did the hill. crafts. Either baskets, snowshoes or Alice: Why? ax handles. Beading, because there Theresa: I don’t know. So anyway when was beading done way back then. that big fire happened here, it must Because you could tell, like a lot of have been way back in the 30’s. the clothing in some of them old Because I can remember going down pictures, that probably you have seen the hill with my mother and seeing too. They done a lot of beadwork on all them houses on fire. There was them. If you ever go down to Saint only about five houses left, the rest John, to that museum, you would see all burned. a lot of these costumes, with the Alice: How did they burn? embroidery of moose hair and quill Theresa: I really don’t know. I don’t work. I know Grammy Polchies use know if somebody had upset a lamp. to make little quill baskets. Remember when they use to have Alice: So there is a lot of stuff down kerosene lamps? I think that’s really there? how it started. Theresa: There should be, I haven’t Alice: But five houses? been down there for a long time. Kim Theresa: That was pretty well all that got work down there and I have was left. There was only Uncle work down there and I think Ve- Willy’s house and Leo Tomah’s. My ronica has too. grandmother’s house, which was Alice: So, all the baskets you have right next to Leo’s, and that burnt. made, and I know you made a lot, And the house next to that was Sarah where are they? Have you kept any? Solomon and John Solomon’s mother Theresa: Well, I didn’t keep anything.

66 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Well as any other craftsmen will do, Theresa: Well no, I guess not. But today they would sooner sell. they’re crying for baskets. Alice: So when was it when you made Alice: There is hardly anyone that your first basket, what year was it? makes baskets anymore. Theresa: It was way back in ‘39. We Theresa: Well, most of the people have were spending summers down there died. The ones that did all that stuff. in Westfield. And I use to make them Alice: I remember Evangeline, Louie, little bracelets and have little baskets Dickie. Mike Sacobie, he still makes and them Easter baskets. Like what them the odd time. you see today, you know, them little Theresa: But you know, it’s sad where ones, little round shape ones. And I all this craft is disappearing. Hope- use to make them and I’d sell them fully, I wouldn’t mind to teach, if I and make money. And you save all could. But I can’t now, because I’m your money, until you want to go to getting allergic to a lot of things town and go spend it. I never saved, which never bothered me before, and no way, I’m going to enjoy what I do it don’t take much. have. Alice: But you have done a lot of stuff Alice: Yes, that’s what it’s for. yourself. Theresa: So, they use to, like my grand- Theresa: I have some work in Philadel- mother especially, on my mother’s phia Museum and way down in side. She use to go and sell baskets. Lousianna, Toronto and here at She would fix her sled and haul it Mactaquac. Then I sold a lot to the over the river and she would go sell craft shops in Fredericton. I don’t her baskets. And lots of times way know if that was the Union [Union of back then, them white people hardly New Brunswick Indians], but they had any money then too. But they use to have them craft places there would give things to my grand- and I sold a lot of my work there. mother, like in exchange. Vegetables, Alice: So your baskets are all over the chicken, fruit, that’s really how they place? survived. But I’ll tell you, with that Theresa: All over. You know, a few generation back then, they preserved years ago, say around ten years a lot of this stuff, berries, apples. I anyway, a man came up here and remember stringing apples, the sliced ordered three large work baskets. apples on a thread and they would And put a lot of braided sweet hay hang them up to dry. And when they on them and I made them. So when wanted to make apple sauce or pies, he picked them up, he said would they soaked them over night and like to know where these are going. they would be just as fresh. And And I said I sure would. He said berries they use to lay papers in an Russia. Yes I have work pretty well area, you know to dry them out. So all over. they really had to struggle a lot in Alice: Do you mark your work? them times, because money was Theresa: Yes, I use to put a little stamp really not that plentiful years back. on the bottom. I’ve had people here Alice: But it didn’t have to be, did it? from Japan, China, Iraq, Iran, Aus-

67 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 4.4: Katherine Tomah and Frank Tomah from Kingsclear; the child is Winston Solomon (University of New Brunswick Archives, 6-20).

tralia, almost every European Coun- baskets, I don’t know if Charles try. In the States, right from Califor- [Whimpy] still makes them or not. nia to Maine, Canada, all across Theresa: Well, he makes rough work, Canada. I’ve had three or four come like the bigger baskets, that’s what I here to buy crafts. They tell me where call rough work. But I don’t think they are from. there is anybody else that does fine Alice: I think I referred you to a couple work, fancy baskets. of people regarding baskets. Hardly Alice: I don’t think so. anyone makes them anymore. You Theresa: I’ll tell you who is good at come to mind when I think about baskets is your brother Shack.

68 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: Shack makes baskets? how to do the fancy baskets and the Theresa: Yes, he was in that group, different weaves to it. The thistle when Richard had it there at Nor- weave, the twist pattern, the rainbow ma’s. and the loop design. I don’t have Alice: That’s right. that. The girls have each shopping Theresa: He took sick one time, and two basket that I gave them. I had a lot of weeks I filled in for him. So I showed celebrities come here. There was an all the students that he had about Italian star that came here and he fancy work, all the different weaves. didn’t speak English, he had an He made a great big work basket. It interpreter with him. And the other was really nice. group that come here one time was Alice: I made a basket one time and it the, you know that group that sings was a fish basket, that was the only that, they’re from Ontario. I can’t basket I ever made. think of that song. Well, anyway, they Theresa: What they were making come here, two van loads. They were mostly is them little heart shaped on tour and they stopped here. And ones. They made them when I was they even lined up in my yard there there. And I showed them how to and started singing. make a cradle and I showed them END OF TAPE

69 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

70 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

5. We lived on the river…

RONALD PAUL SITANSISK/ST. MARY’S FIRST NATION

…When we use to live down Gagetown, we lived down there for ten years on the river boat. My grandparents lived up the shore, we lived on the river, houseboat. We were just young fellows, playing in ice water, bare footed. We use to catch smelts. Spring of the year, Grandmother would bring us great big tubs and everything that could hold fish. We use to go out there in ice floats. If you turn the ice floats, the fish come on top of the . We’d rake them in the tubs and they were eight or nine inches long, by the thousands, and rake them in. We didn’t mind the water. Evenings she’d fried them and we would all eat. She use to sit down there and sing Indian songs… They’re telling a story in Maliseet Language, but it’s a dying tradition. You don’t hear it, but your mother did it too. So did my father…

…How they cheated Indians a long time ago, but they’re not going to get all of it. They are not going to get what we have left. Just like medicine. White man will take anything from an Indian and make money out of it. They take everything away from us, why would you want to give them that. They can’t find a cure for cancer, they can’t find a cure for a cold,… The Indians have it, the white man don’t. That’s what they say too, the people from Tobique, don’t be a fool, don’t let them have it. They got everything from us for nothing, cheated us. Don’t let them have our medicine …

Ronald: Indian Point, my grandparents And they put a bunch of soldiers, so use to go by there and they use to that nobody can get in and nobody watch them Indians at night along can get out. They had to transport the shores, campfires. They would be groceries and everything as far as the dancing. Why were they dancing? gate, and they had to put them over. Well, they were sick, they were They were dying just like flies. It dying. That white man’s bad disease, almost wiped out all the Indians, plague. only a handful survived. That’s a bad Alice: Was this at Jemseg, Ron? thing. It wiped out all them Indians Ronald: Yes. It spread like fire, down Grand Lake and Jemseg and Gagetown, Oromocto, the old Re- all that. serve [St. Mary’s]. Natolin [Matilda], Alice: So, what were they doing in her house was turned into a hospital, Jemseg? What you called Indian that big house of hers. They turned Point? that into a part-time hospital. Be- Ronald: They [Indians] use to travel cause people are coming in there and back and forth, up and down the they quarantined the whole Reserve. river. Indian Point was like this old

71 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Reserve, where they came and That’s when Jim Paul said they came stopped and maybe spent a summer. to cheat us. They sold canoes to Mary Like a camping ground. Chestnut and her husband. So they Alice: They made baskets? took it over to the factory and they Ronald: Yes, everything. Just like they dismantled it, they wanted to see go from here to Public Landing. how it was made. After they meas- Brown’s Flat they called it, they ured everything and they turned stopped there. Oh God, they made around and got their own people to baskets, bows and arrows, every- build a mold. And it became Chest- thing for the white people, chairs. nut Canoes, and they became mil- Alice: Anybody make birch bark ca- lionaires. But instead of putting the noes? bark on it, they put canvas on it. Ronald: Yes, they made birch bark Alice: Does anyone make them today? canoes. I have pictures. They made Ronald: They were going to pay me ten birch bark canoes right down here thousand dollars to put a couple or [old St. Mary’s Reserve]. three together. I told them no way, no Alice: Who made them? way. I would never do it. How they Ronald: I don’t know, but I had a pic- cheated Indians a long time ago, but ture of them. My uncle was one of they’re not going to get all of it. They them standing there, Ed Paul. They are not going to get what we have had driven stakes right in the ground left. Just like medicine. White man there. They had bark laying there. will take anything from an Indian And they had to use poles to brace it and make money out of it. They take while they are wetting it down, so everything away from us, why they can put it together. I had the would you want to give them that. picture and everything, and I use to They can’t find a cure for cancer, they watch them doing that. That’s one can’t find a cure for a cold, but I trade we’ll never get back, as how laugh in the spring of the year. It’s they made birch bark canoes a long funny you know, white man looks time ago. Jim Paul said, they come to hard, looking for a cure for cancer. cheat us [said Maliseet]. We’ll make a Every where you look, it’s there. A canoe, birch bark canoe common cold, as simple as sneezing. [Masqewuloq] the white man wants The Indians have it, the white man to buy it. One hundred and fifty don’t. That’s what they say too, the dollars a birch bark canoe. You know people from Tobique, don’t be a fool, who bought it? don’t let them have it. They got Alice: Who? everything from us for nothing, Ronald: Mary Chestnut, Chestnut cheated us. Don’t let them have our Canoe Company. Make me the very medicine. They said, you know it and best she said. So they made a birch I know it. Guard it with you life. bark, paid one hundred and fifty Sure, there’s all kinds of cure for it. dollars way back then. Too many have big mouths. When Alice: What year was this? we use to live down Gagetown, we Ronald: 1927. They made a canoe. lived down there for ten years on the

72 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

river boat. My grandparents lived up the tourists came. Now they wanted the shore, we lived on the river, Indians to put on a show for them. houseboat. We were just young That was a laugh and a half. fellows, playing in ice water, bare Alice: What did you do? footed. We use to catch smelts. Spring Ronald: What did we do! They all got of the year, Grandmother would drunk. They put on the Indian bring us great big tubs and every- clothes and dressed up like real thing that could hold fish. We use to Indians and painted themselves. go out there in ice floats. If you turn They were feeling good. They didn’t the ice floats, the fish come on top of care. And the tourists were there and the canoes. We’d rake them in the this guy said, can you make it look tubs and they were eight or nine real. They had axes, hatchets and inches long, by the thousands, and knives, without any warning or rake them in. We didn’t mind the anything like that, it was not water. Evenings she’d fried them and planned. They just went over there, we would all eat. She use to sit down grabbed a white woman and hauled there and sing Indian songs. They’re her right out of the crowd. And she telling a story. They’re telling a story was screaming her head off. And in Maliseet Language, but it’s a dying they took her over there to a post, tradition. You don’t hear it, but your they tied her there. They wanted mother did it too. So did my father. reality. And then they started danc- And I use to sing it to my children, ing around her. Look that poor when they were small, to put them to woman cried, scared. Dancing sleep. Indian songs. around singing in Indian, after a Alice: Like what songs, Ron? while it was all over and they untied Ronald: About the rabbits, about the her. All in a show. Your grandfather sky and even death. When you’re said that Ed, we put on the show. Not married, when your happy, when very many can dance that now. I you’re travelling around in the canoe. almost forget how to do that myself. I The other day I told Julie, can you told John, do you know how to still sing it Jul. She said she tried, but dance? He says that he can’t do it. couldn’t do it. I use to go up to Walter Brooks, I asked him if he can Anna’s house. Anna’s grandchildren still dance that. Said he couldn’t, that came in, I bounced them on my knee he was too heavy, not like he use to. [He sang a song]. They all started Dancing is something else. You don’t laughing, wanted to know what he dance like the white people, it’s like was singing. Singing like them old you are bouncing right of the floor. Indians. It was like that. We were We do it a lot of times up at the down Public Landing, Brown’s Flat, camp, when we’re fooling around. one summer. Your mother [referring Bridgie’s children—when you peel to Tina Brooks], your mother’s father alders in the summer time, that stuff [Charlie Meuse], that’s your grandfa- on the ground, the sun bakes it and ther, and my father and my uncles. makes it crispy like cornflakes, when And it was summer time, when all you walk on it and walking around

73 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

there barefooted—he’s about five them melon baskets for cucumbers, years old. Hey Grampy look, he’s tomatoes and everything. They’re doing the Indian dance. He likes to shaped like watermelons. hear that crunching sound. Alder Alice: They don’t have them anymore? was used for chairs. Maple, willow, Ronald: No. But what I use to hate, in and bark, birch bark, a lot easy to the afternoons in the summertime, work with when they’re green. And you want to go swimming. And they baskets, chair bottoms and backs. say, you do it after supper. Right now You know, black ash is, you can use it you go out there and chop down a for almost anything. I mean every- poplar tree, make sure it’s clear. We’d thing. Just like string, you tie things go out there and look for poplar tree, with it, make baskets, put the chairs ten to twelve inches, about eight feet. together and hold everything, it There were no chainsaws, just braces. homemade saws. We had to chop it Alice: Why do they use hoops? all down and split it. Split the top Ronald: People getting lazy now. Old and right down the middle. And then women, I use to watch them, they we had to hew it out and put them use to cut narrow strips. Just about all to one side, my work is done. the size of a shoelace in long strands. Them butter trays, they weren’t And they hook it on and they get a worth very much in those days. But basket hoop and they would lace it five dollars was five dollars. Today all the way around. The basket never the same butter trays I’m talking contained any nails, where were nails about, you go out and pay seventy- three hundred years ago? five to eighty dollars for them now. Alice: That’s why I say, when did they Alice: When they made baskets a long use the hoops? time ago, where did they go? Who Ronald: And see, they just rolled it did they sell them to? around. They take two sticks and Ronald: You don’t take them out. My they put them together and they roll grandparents worked all week, it all the way around. And they get because we had to go out and pound the handle, they put the handle down ash for them. We had to go look for and they lace it back and forth. And it. Old people, old women they get then they go around it again. The together and they strip them and higher baskets always had a double shave them. They made small bas- bottom, because they had a lot more kets, they made fancy baskets. And wear and tear on it. And it makes the men made big baskets, pack them hard to work with. They had baskets, fishing and potato baskets, baskets for everything. They had clothes baskets. They were for the baskets the size of this table, three or farmers when they got done. They four feet wide big handles and they worked all week. They put them on a had straps under, so that you could boat and paddled them up Jemseg, slide them around the baskets for way up inside Grand Lake, all in fruits and vegetables. It’s just like the Grand lake along the river. Every barrels today. And then they had farmhouse they see or store, they

74 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

would stop. They don’t sell baskets, didn’t trap them, they went out and everything was for trade. This was in shot them. Some of them would have the early thirties, the depression. a canoe full. And a women, girls, When everything was the hardest, anybody that could skin, they would even the money and the gasoline. just bring them, dump them, and go Because the depression was the back again. Everybody along the hardest thing. People were hungry. I Saint John River, anybody that use to go with them, they’d trade wanted to hunt. Indians. Muskrats, goods. If they can’t spare a little gas muskrats by the truck loads. They or fuel for the motor, that was okay. were making a lot of money. They They’d give them a couple of gallons, didn’t have traps until lately, when potatoes, meat flour. Because farmers they started settling down. Calming had a lot of that stuff, butter, milk, down, without shooting any animals. pancake flour. So they’d trade. Now Then I started trapping beavers, and then the stores would give you, muskrats, fox, otters and mink. My maybe a few change, money. And all father and my grandparents and the that clothing, it was all trade, there rest of the Indians, they use to work was hardly any money exchanged. all day to get prepared for the trap- It’s how they survived and it’s how ping season. We use to laugh, they’d they got along. Indians never had split up big maples to make tobog- any money from the white man, just gans. The runners curl up and the trade goods. leather was tied on there. They Alice: Did you ever have any trouble would have to make that within a with white man? day. Now and then, that thing would Ronald: No. They use to come along slap you in the face. Everybody had with horse and buggy. Now and to get ready for it, prepare for it. This then, you might see a car. Nobody would have been like March weather. could afford a car back then. I re- It runs on top of the crust. They’d get member after the war started, people the snowshoes made, toboggan then were so scared of it. The war and they go chase moose or deer. Deer are Germans. We were down Brown’s bad out there. They go through a Flat and we were making baskets. We crust and scrape their shins and the were playing in the yard in the tents hide would go way up, and you and these planes landed on the big could see the bone. And three or four lake. Everybody was screaming. times, they will jump their legs get They grabbed us and put us in the sore and then they just stand there. great big culvert. Germans, Germans. So an Indian will come along and Everybody ran hiding. I often won- grab him, knock him over the head, der what they were talking about, slit its throat. And just have him right Germans, Germans, the war. But all there and go right on. Five or six, my life time, there were mainly they were not so much after the meat, muskrats. Muskrats every way you it was the pelt they were after. With can get them. They were five dollars that, they can make snowshoes, hats apiece. Five dollars apiece and they and gloves. And same with the

75 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

moose, moose hides. They go out and man, old John, they called him. They track moose. Moose hide, they can were out there snaring rabbits. They make moccasins, winter moccasins went up there one day and there was they’re heavy, fur lined. Moose nose, this bear standing there. Couldn’t go it’s shaped like a foot. around him, you had to go through Alice: Who made all this stuff? the path. If they climbed a tree, it Ronald: My father and my uncle. would go after them. He took out a Alice: Your father Ed Paul and Tom little ax or hatchet, he cut a tree. He Nash? told John, see this tree, I’m going to Ronald: My father and Tom Nash throw that right in his face, you hit Ronald: It’s shaped like a foot [moose him. The bear stood up with his arms nose]. Have you ever seen a moose? wide open. If you threw a tree in Alice: Ugly looking things, I say. front of a bear, he’d grab it and hug Ronald: They were out there waiting for it. John hit the bear and knocked him a moose. My father sat there behind a flat on his behind. stump. You go over there Ed, then END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE we’ll chase it around. Dad went the TAPE ONE SIDE TWO other way and Tom, they chased it. Ronald: After, we moved up to Old Levi Sabattis from Oromocto, he Fredericton. After my mother died, said I’ll stay right over here Ed, we moved up here. My grandparents okay? My father was sitting there were down here, so then we moved waiting for it with a shotgun. He up here. We didn’t do very much [Levi] was sitting there didn’t hear after that. Found a little place to live. nothing. [Ron imitating a moose call]. We went over one day to the crown There was a moose standing over land office, they were doing beavers. him looking at him. Levi said, They asked us if we would help and ‘Peskalikewon’ (shoot him). He do some beavers. We said sure. Skin [Ron’s father] shot him, got him right the beavers for us. Well we worked in the chest, knocked him flat on his that year for them people. They had a butt. He told Levi, take an ax and cut time limit for beavers. There were no his gambit out. He told him, the heck Indians that trapped, just white with you. We use to have fun. You’d people. They were only allowed to see a moose laying there, up there in trap eight beavers apiece. So after the bog, he’d lay there and go after that my father worked for them on him in the moonlight. They’d get and off. And then after the war in drunk and they’d go out there. Bears 1946, wages were going higher, so are the same way. They never shot they had no more time limit. They bears, they would hardly shoot any started slaughtering animals. The animals at all. They had more fun. white people, not Indians. There You hit it with a hatchet or an ax, were only a few Indians that did clubbing it to death. This one bear, trapping . my grandfather Isaac and old John Alice: You did a lot of it didn’t you? Brooks, that would be Sam Brooks’ Trapping muskrat? brother. John Brooks was a great big Ronald: Well, Oromocto trapped. John

76 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 5.1: Ronald Paul, St. Mary’s First Nation skinning beaver using a drawknife (photo courtesy of Ronald Paul)

Atwin, Pat Sacobie, Charlie Sark, Keswick. Everybody trapped. Good Clarence Tomah, Clarence Atwin, money, a lot of them got drunk on Willard Paul, they use to trap the that. But when the beaver season Oromocto Island. My father would comes in the fall of the year, I’d go go down to Lincoln, they would have into it heavy. People were poor back a line from there, to the outskirts of then, it was hard. Do you remember Fredericton City limits. They trapped that? Half the reserve, I raised half that. Me and the other ones, we the reserve during the hard times. trapped from right there by the Save There wasn’t one family on the Easy, all the way to York Manor, to reserve that didn’t eat beaver. Sugar Island. We were on a trap line Alice: I’ve eaten beaver, it tasted like on both sides of the river. John Casey chicken. I liked it. had the other side of the river, him Ronald: It’s not just you, it’s everybody and Louie Babe [Louis Paul]. On this on the reserve. When we get a fresh side, me and Benedict. Warren, beaver, I always wait for a real good Maurice and Amos, stayed up on one, I always had the first meal. And Keswick Ridge, where George Nash, after that I didn’t do them because Ween [William Nash] and Levi my parents always say get one for Brooks, they stayed up there in yourself before you start out that way

77 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 5.2: Ronald Paul, St. Mary’s First Nation using drawknife to scrape fat off beaver fur(photo courtesy of Ronald Paul)

you won’t be wondering. When you the very best, they’re just like calf eat something first they said, then liver. Fry it. you can work with it. So I did, bea- Alice: It’s been almost twenty years ver, nice and white, fat. since I’ve had a muskrat. Alice: Best for me was muskrat. Ronald: When we go up to the camp in Ronald: Well it’s all right too. When the spring of the year, me and John, they start coming in, muskrats and when we start trapping. The freshest beaver. I had to crate down to one we get, nice white fat. First two, Oromocto. They called from I’d tell John, well John, I’ll clean these Kingsclear, I couldn’t keep the people out for you, get the frying pan ready. in Beaver and muskrats. Just like the He’d say okay. You take bacon grease spring of the year when the muskrat or pork, put the muskrat in with that, season opens up, they wanted musk- Indian bread. Oh God! rats. I use to handle Tom Brooks’ Alice: I remember my mother use to people up here for muskrats. They’re cook stew or bake it. big river rats. We’d put fifty or sixty Ronald: My grandparents use to make in a freezer, maybe I’d have five or fun of white people, they’d do this a six beaver for the winter in there. lot back then, in the old days. I’ll tell Roast pork and steaks, liver. Liver is you who pulled a cute one, George

78 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Nash and Levi, they were up in Atwin tells Jim, whenever you cook Keswick, at an old camping ground tea, when the water has boiled, you they had up there, they were trap- take the tea and just throw it in the ping Muskrats. This was Easter pot. The harder you throw it, the Sunday, they went out to catch a stronger it gets. And he said, yeah. So whole bunch of them and they came he threw the tea as hard as he could, home. Let’s cook some for supper. but missed the pot. Many times They cooked three of them. See when whites came up to the Island just to you cook a muskrat, you skin it and see how the Indians live. They would clean it out. You just cut it in half, say show us how the Indians you don’t chop off the legs or any- worked. He wouldn’t do that, but thing. Put it right in there, put pota- would teach them instead. Baskets, toes in there, a little flour to make how do you start baskets Ron? When gravy. Before it was done, these I was growing up my grandparents— women came over and asking about gave me six pieces of ash and I had to baskets. What are you cooking? They put them together. This is what is said stay for supper, we have some called the key. We only have six strips stew on. Oh no, the women said, you of ash and I have to do this and if go ahead and have your supper, we’ll you can’t do this, you’re no good. just wait for you, and make our When the whites come a lot of time— baskets. So when the stew was done, and Indians too—I tell them, I will they took the pot and set it on the show you how it was taught to me a table, put the plates on. They said, long time ago. So they try it, it’s what about knives and forks? They, nothing hard, only six little pieces. the men said, no we’re Indians. One Okay, see, did you see how I put of the men took the cover off the pot them together? Yes, well here, take it of stew and stuck his hand right in it. apart and you try it. They couldn’t With his hand he put food on their do it. I’m sitting right there, showing plates. The white women just stared you how to do it. Then I’ll do it with their mouths wide open. They again, I put them together again. ate, it was good. They would prob- Take it apart and try it again. Three ably tell this when they go back hours they tried, the whites, they home, about how these Indians live couldn’t do it. Can’t you see that it’s like dogs. I told Andrea about that not that hard to put together, that’s and she said really that happened why you would think that it’s easy. right up Sugar Island, Keswick. Well, Them six little pieces. I tell them it’s where did the Indians get knives and simple, but you can’t do it, why? I’ll forks a long time ago. Maybe tell you a secret, once you learn it’s wooden spoons, but they didn’t have no more fun. I said come here, put no forks. Use your hands, that’s what two together, and these other ones. they’re for. Jim Paul and Atwin— [Explaining how it is done, then gets they went trapping for otters—said them to try it again]. One of them let’s go eat on the Island. And they says, look I done it, I put it together. I only had a handful of tea and milk. said if you don’t get the key you

79 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

won’t be able to make a basket. There twenty-five dollars, eighteen dollars are different kinds of bottom baskets for eighteen baskets. I don’t know all different. They are like weaving how much those people made. But snowshoes. A long time ago, do you the people that supply those compa- remember Lean Brother’s meat nies, they were paid seven dollars market? Well, Polons [Frank Sacobie], and fifty cents a basket. All we got myself, Dick and other Indians, was one dollar apiece. But then lately, Sammy, Levi Brooks, Ween [William after that, when everything had Nash], Artie. Every Saturday morn- blown over, I surprised myself. This ing—Tom Brooks, Frank’s family, Ben man had asked me, he said, you want Brooks, all them old Indians, they are to make me a big basket, a garden all dead—we use to go down there basket. And I told him, yeah. You and sell clothes baskets. Two dollars remember that. I said yes, big turnip and fifty cents apiece. We work hard basket. How many do you want, I all week, apple baskets and potato ask. He said a couple, if you can. And baskets, clothes and fishing baskets. I told him, sure. And he also wanted Fishing baskets were ninety cents, a potato basket. Ron asks the man if apple baskets were seventy-five it’s a half bushel, a bushel or three cents. If a basket had a swivel handle quarters. I made them up in two on it, it was worth a dollar. Potato weeks and I met this man at the old baskets, small and big ones, they had city market. I was surprised. When I to be double bottomed before you told him I wanted forty-five dollars could get a dollar for them, or a apiece, twenty-five dollars for the dollar ten. Ax handles, four dollars potato basket and he paid me right and fifty cents for a dozen and this there. No backing out, no nothing. was in the forty’s. I told this man there’s a lot of differ- They use to take them over to HS Neil’s ence. He said yes. These baskets hardware store and EM Young Ltd. would last me ten years the man And they had an apple exchange out said. I told him, I was taught a long there on Regent Street. Indians from time ago, when I make baskets for Oromocto and Kingsclear, Andover, white man, I better be sure they only Fredericton, they were making ax use it for a month, so they come back handles, apple baskets, potato bas- and buy another one. He said, do you kets, by the truck loads. Ten, fifteen remember that. And I said yes, but baskets at a time. I told my father, I’ll tell you one thing, we don’t make well, there’s only two of us, you cedar baskets. We’re not Micmacs make the ax handles and I’ll make (Mi’kmaq). I told this man that the baskets. That was the saddest Micmacs (Mi’kmaq) made cedar time, how could my brothers be so baskets it would fall apart. Why do stupid? My father and me worked so you do that he asks. Because we hard and they’d just sit there looking make them come back to buy more at us. They’d never try to learn, they baskets. Cedar is green and you can never tried to do anything. My father work with it. It dries, like an egg made five dozen ax handles for shell, it will crumble. I made a lot of

80 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

baskets. Three baby cradles before uncle lived there on that island. He Bertha died. I made that cradle, looked like a white man. I use to seventy-five dollars and I coloured make fun of him when I visited him. the splints. When this women took a My father and my mother said, I’m look at it, she said I want that one, going to see Uncle Pete. Okay. I was one hundred and twenty-five dollars. about seven years old, he was sitting Alice: Evangeline use to make cradles. there, that white man, putting tar on Ronald: Yes. Someone asked, do you his boat. I told my father, what the make rocking chairs? And I said, heck does he want to put that black yeah, but they take a lot of time to stuff on there for? Why don’t he just make. How many can you make? I make another one? He won’t have to don’t know, what did you want? Can put that on every year. He never said you make five this week? And I said nothing, he just kept on working. yes. How do you want them done? Then after he said, my wife will be What do you mean? I can make them out after while. He speaks English, anyway you want. With slabs, I can okay. We had some supper, before we weave them in. Whatever you want had to go back. We were working on me to put on it, for the back and his boat. My father and them were bottom. What do you think would be talking about the day and what they best, he asks. I said, life time? Then I were doing. So the time came when said that I would weave them in for he sat down and looked at me. And him. Okay, said the man, weave them he laughed, he said something in in, forty-five dollars. Then the man Indian. And I could have crawled in never said anything. Do you remem- a little hole. The white man speaking ber old Pete and Doc? When the Indian! He had the bluest eyes, white three of us use to work all week? face. That’s who you call ‘White Alice: Do you know anything about Pete’. Indian Point, St. Croix, those kind of Alice: Did you ever hear about places? Oromocto Pete? Who was he? Ronald: Yes. Ronald: I don’t know. Alice: I don’t hear too much of anyone Alice: Someone told me that he was a talking about them. short man and he always went to Ronald: No, they only, maybe, go there Oromocto, for what? to work. Roger’s father [Arthur Paul] Ronald: I don’t remember him. But it’s use to go up there, St. Croix. only an Indian name. They never Alice: Indian Island is not the same said anything about Pete. Piyel place? Kansuhs, that’s what he went by. He Ronald: Menahqesk (Saint John), Indian was no bigger than Juniorsis [Fred] Island all rock, have you ever been and Tuahdie [Fred Sr.]. He was about there? the same size. Mae was his daughter, Alice: I’ve never been there. My mother they are all short people. They lived and father went there one year, took along the shore, there was no reser- kids to summer camp. vation. It’s just a landing place where Ronald: Summer camp is different. My people stopped off. Oromocto, what

81 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 5.3: Walter Joseph Paul Sr. of St. Mary's, picking fiddleheads at Savage Island (University of New Brunswick Archives, 74-17388).

82 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

you see now, was not there. Our them army boots, shoe leather… This places were along the shoreline, just was a Micmac (Mi’kmaq) woman about twenty or thirty feet from the from the Newcastle area. Charlie’s water. They built little tar paper mother. My great grandmother use to shacks. That’s where they lived. We go down there and visit them. My use to stop in there and spend maybe family, we’d go down, come a long a week along the shore there. way. We’d go in and sit down there. Grandpa and uncles use to go up And give you big molasses cake and there. Grandmother Bear, that’s 109 them old golden rod cans, full of tea. years old. Give me lunch, but wouldn’t give END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO any to my brothers. TAPE TWO SIDE ONE Alice: How come? Ronald: Older Indians in Oromocto, Ronald: The difference was—I couldn’t they didn’t speak English. They understand it until I got a little didn’t understand English hardly. It’s older—I worked hard. I had my best if you’re an Indian or they won’t parents. I can make things that the talk. They speak their own language. Indians make… The only time then, My grandparents and great grand- is if they went fiddleheading. They parents, it was all Indian. My great would pick fiddleheads all week and grandmother, old Bear, Grandma they’d work, work, work. Bear, just like a bear. She was short Fredericton, Oromocto, and little thing. Piyel Kansuhs’ wife, Gagetown, people they’d work, pick that’s what we call him. But we fiddleheads. There was no sale for didn’t call him Pete, but that was his fiddleheads here. They didn’t sell name Piyel. Kahsuhswicik [Kansuhs them here. Saturday mornings, Family] on my grandmother’s side. everybody, all the canoes of the See that bean pork. When they fry it, Indians that had fiddleheads. They’d two frying pans and that grease on go out in the middle of the river and there—this was a Saturday night. sit right there. Wait for that river boat Indian women were cooking bean to come along, load their goodies and pork and beans, molasses. The men go down with it to Saint John. And folk were along the shore drinking stop in Oromocto, load the that home brew [Bees Beer]. I don’t fiddleheads and go to Gagetown. I know what happened, but they all went with them on that big boat. started fighting… White man don’t Forty-five bags of fiddleheads. I put come on the reserve for anything. my little bags of fiddleheads in there, They come on there for a purpose. about eighty-five pounds. I worked That’s probably why they did that. hard, I never forgot, even today. They had something else in mind. Captain Belding asked me if I had John [Coon] Sacobie said Indians are my fiddleheads. And I said, yeah always going bare footed, summer right here. My father went down and winter. And that’s true; bare- with the fiddleheads and came back, footed summer and winter. Their feet all I got was a chocolate bar out of and their heels are callused, just like that. I worked hard all week for a

83 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

chocolate bar. I never forgot that. I I’ll see that you get some. I told John, still don’t know today what he got oh my God, crazy people selling for them. But I bet you about fifty, fiddleheads around here. But they sixty tons of fiddleheads went to don’t think about the other stores out Saint John at the Market Square. there. McAdam, McAdam Supermar- They were going all over Canada, all kets, Harvey Station, all them stores. over the Province. And they’re still All stores on the outside areas, doing it today. But I made more than Fredericton Junction, Geary and all that chocolate bar today. them. Nobody handles them stores. Alice: Yes Stores out here, Minto, Chipman and Ronald: But back then, I couldn’t figure all that area, Boisetown, Millville, out what happened. Chocolate bar, I said think about us now and then. worked hard all week. Fiddleheads We live out here too. We like to buy use to be a big, big business back Indian crafts, baskets and ax handles. then for Indians, before the white Come out and sell to us too. We need man butted in. But they’re still buy- them just as well as Fredericton, but ing fiddleheads, but nobody takes nobody comes out. I gave up trying them. They’re buying fiddleheads in to tell Indians, to coach them making the ‘States’. The ‘States’ want baskets. Tom Brooks was alive then. fiddleheads. But the Indians go to the Walter. I had an order, an order from States and bring them back here. New York. A man came over, he Why don’t they sell them over there. wants to buy some baskets off you Alice: They would get better money for guys. I asked him, how many? And them over there. he said, just as many as you can Ronald: I stopped at the border there, make. He said, you go and tell the coming home, I went down there other Indians everywhere. I went to riding around. I stopped in Eastport, Oromocto, and here [St. Mary’s] and the white man stores there, I got I went to Woodstock and then to some ice cream and pop. The man- Tobique and Kingsclear. And I told ager said, are you from around here? Tom Brooks and the other Indians up No, I’m from Canada. Are you bring- here, make me baskets, any kind of ing in fiddleheads? I said, no, why. baskets, as many as you can make. I’d like to have five bags, if you could How many would you want? I told bring them to us. I stopped at the gas them 1500 to 2000 and I had to have bar and got some gas, the woman them in three or four months. I’ll give asked me, She wanted 150 pounds of you all the time. They never said yes fiddleheads. When we got to the or they never said no. Nobody made Canadian border, they didn’t ask baskets. So how can you help them? I what we were taking over. They said no more, no more, from now on. come over and asked, do you have If I want to do something, I’ll think any fiddleheads? Please, could you about myself and the heck with bring some for us. I said, well I’m on them. They don’t want to learn, they my way back home now, but if I get just want to sit on their behinds and some fiddleheads—see my brother— have everything handed to them, for

84 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

nothing. And that’s just what they’ll are there, then when the fiddleheads be. are done, there is the rustic chairs Alice: And that’s the way they are, most and your baskets. And you go right of them. on through all summer. And when Ronald: They use the reservation today you get to July, you turn over and as a crutch, and they have to lean on make apple baskets and potato it. I grew up hard and this is where I baskets. When you get to August, am today. I know what it’s like out there is blueberry season. You see, there. I can’t sit back and do nothing. then there’s your potato season, six It’s not the money, it’s not the money. weeks of each. And when you get to It’s just that it’s your tradition, and the end of October, then your trap- you have to do it. It’s an everyday ping season starts again and your thing. Follow the seasons from one hunting seasons. And that’s when season to another, everything everyone starts thinking about the changes with the season, but they hard, cold winter. And everything don’t understand this. They think it’s has to be made, your snowshoes, all same thing, it’s not the same your skis, your sleds, your harnesses, thing. You have to know your ani- your pack baskets. Then you go mals, your birds, you have to know trapping. Animals are so plentiful. your trees and the material that you Alice: Where do you trap? work with. You just can’t jump in Ronald: Wherever you want to go. there and get anything right away. River, when you can paddle. When The trees, in the certain time of the it’s frozen and can walk on it. Foxes. year, they lose their bark. That’s for Back woods, there’s only wild cats, you to work with. Now you can take martins. But on the river side it’s the tree and chop it down and peel otter, mink, muskrats, weasels, the bark. Even with the bark alone, everything. Seals, yuk! seals stink, you can make baskets, different seals and sea dogs. I don’t mind coloured baskets. The bark off of the nailing and scraping them, but I tree is just like leather. We use to wouldn’t scrape them today. They make belts out of them. We use to are about four feet long and about make shoulder straps, baskets, sew- three feet wide, that’s when they are ing baskets, all different kinds. Be- skinned out. And then you scrape cause they are green and you can them, you stretch them out and they work with it. When it dries up, it’s are about nine feet long. They’re solid and then you take varnish and dirty and greasy, just like shortening, paint them. They’re solid. Ash is the they stink. I’ve skinned nine polar same way. After the ash there’s the bears and fifty seals. Polar bears are fiddleheads. You see muskrats, nine feet long and 1500 pounds muskrats come first and then right on apiece. That’s a floor rug, enough to top of that—muskrats and gaspereau cover a living room, they’re big. Then come together. When the gaspereau you save the gall, the gall is one comes, just before that, the hundred and fifty dollars an ounce. fiddleheads come. The fiddleheads That’s just about a tablespoon and

85 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 5.4: Edward Isaac Paul of St. Mary's; Ron's father, working furs (Canadian Museum of Civilization, 23222).

that little gall alone, about half a cup make medicine out of that. I get ten is worth about 1000 to 1500 dollars. dollars apiece for them little things. I You take it when you cut it out, you get ten dollars apiece for them sacks, take a string and tie it so that it don’t and the white man gets five hundred leak. Then hang them up to dry and dollars apiece for them. And in Japan then when they are dry, you take they get five or six thousand for them and wrap them up. And put them. The Indian always gets the them in a bottle and tie them in there rotten end. The same thing as musk- and they are shipped to Japan. They rats. They need fur, the mink. You sell

86 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

a mink today, you go out trapping, auctioneers. you get a mink. A good big mink, Alice: Do they bring all of them to you twenty-seven to thirty inches long, to skin, Ron? four to five inches wide, get it all set Ronald: Yes. I have my customers that and dry, then turn around and sell it. come to me. All they pay you is five to eight Alice: Isn’t it up to you to set a price, as dollars. When the man sells it, he gets to how much you want for them. fifty-two dollars apiece. When he Ronald: They are my prices. I set the sells in an auction, the auction takes price myself, I set the price for them it to the fur people, one hundred and to pay me. If they don’t pay me. They twenty-five to one hundred and go somewhere else. Anyway, they twenty-seven dollars, at least. That’s can’t take it no place else, because no rotten. And then the furrier takes it one else does it. When my girls were and makes a coat out of it, then he living down at the old house, where makes 25,000 dollars on a coat. It’s a Connie’s house is, we were all sitting process that never, never ends and up there on Savage Island. The we get the rotten end of it. The wea- Government men came that day, sel and the skunk. A weasel is the talking about a deal they had for the simplest thing to catch. You can use Indians. Got a sale, I want all the one of them little mouse traps, bend Indians to work together. Everything them back and set it out. A weasel is comes out when there is good money. five dollars apiece. But how many They had five white people in front, Indians up here do it? The skunk just like we have up here right now. another easy thing, hit a skunk over The Indians were back here, listening the head with a hammer, skin it out. to the white man talk. George It has black and white stripes, the Wiseman and that other one said, fanciest and loveliest coat you’ll ever what you say is okay, but us Indians see. The skunk pelt is worth five don’t stand a chance against you dollars, but when they sell it, it’s people when you start dealing. And fifty-five dollars. The skunk coat, it’s the Indians started laughing. What just like silk. The hats are beautiful. do you mean us Indians, us Indians, They make them with the stripes, George Wiseman is from Illinois. they are decorated. The mink, it takes Frederick Bourgoin [Tuahdiesis] one thousand pieces of mink to make Alice: Where did he get the name Paul? a coat. Each slice is different, each Ronald: His name is Bourgoin, he’s colour. Each part of the mink, even from the Geary area, toward the paws. Fox tails, same thing. Fredericton Junction. Where did you They’re even buying dogs now and get the name Bourgoin? My father he house cats. When you go around grew up on the reserve, that’s why. stores, you see multicoloured things When I married my wife, she had there, they’re cats. four children, the same thing. When Alice: Who sets prices on these? they went to school here, I told them Ronald: Auction people do. I have all take your own names, Meadows. the names of the people in my shop, END TAPE TWO SIDE ONE

87 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

TAPE TWO SIDE TWO They are way passed Kingsclear. Ronald: The season in the spring. It use Islandview, right up between to be people from Bangor, Indians Islandview and Woodstock, there’s from Old Town, Saint John, Indian five Islands. They’re under water. Point, Saint John Indians. They use to There also was a falls there, Pokiok all come up to Oromocto from Fort Falls and Stone Rapids. I know, I Fairfield, Andover, Woodstock, went through them. I went through Kingsclear, even white people from them in a summer regatta one year, the ‘States’. Apple blossom time, in a canoe race. The longest race, one Indians come down, they going to hundred and fifty canoes. chase fish. About four hundred Alice: Were they just Indians? canoes. The Indians gather along the Ronald: No, white people. I held a shoreline on Jack’s Island, Sheep championship for eleven years in Island, Savage Island, they would be canoe racing. Everybody was after just packed. Tents, tents, tents, camp- my hide. I was out there and I was fires, campfires. number one. I had a hardwood Alice: What year would that have been? paddle, six and half feet tall and Ronald: 1938 from ‘38 to ‘43. There was twelve inch blades. And an extra set, a lot of white people, just to come cedar paddles. It was a sixty-three and see the Indians. Nobody, nobody, mile run. Woodstock, Island Park to they don’t go up there for nothing. Fredericton. Twenty-thousand peo- It’s share, it’s sharing. Can you ple, all along the river bank. I had imagine, all them Indians in there. If fun. I had just come out of the you put them all together, you would woods. I was in there from April to have about two to three thousand August. I was prime, I was all mus- Indians. But yet, when the evening cled up. I come in there and Birch, starts, around seven in the evening or George Birch, Chestnut Canoe Com- 7:30 pm when the fish start playing, pany, I have a couple of canoes everybody would be out there. Poor entering a race, I’ll put two whites old Molly and her husband, Peter. guy in there and you and your uncle That woman, you could hear her take the other one. How much down the Saint John River. My uncle money I asked. One hundred and use to say that’s why they call you fifty dollars apiece, it would be for Pauls. Hollering for Pete, I could hear advertisement. I said okay. We went that from Woodstock to Oromocto, up there. You had to have your water over here!. She use to tell that Pete and your lunch right there. Sunday where to go, she didn’t need no bull morning, people from the States and horn. She was very loud and she was all around the areas, some down, an old lady, she carried a long ways. Island Park was full. We were the top Alice: What’s the island up there, that’s priority, everything was done for us, shaped like a snowshoe? Gilbert’s we didn’t have to lift a finger. Okay Island? guys, lift your numbers up. We got Ronald: There use to be Snowshoe our numbers and stuck them on. I Islands, you can’t see them now. took number one along the shoreline,

88 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 at the shoreline and from there, they couldn’t steer? We went around the just lined out. Just like steps going other island instead of going with the across the water. On your marks! The current. He went this way. By the current is bad. The man held the gun time I got out, they were way ahead and when the gun went off, my of us. I told him, oh my God, we’re canoe jumped about ten feet and took not going to catch up. I told him, off. Them paddles really moved that work! And this was out here in canoe. Harold Sappier was one of Pokiok, we were twenty-seven miles them, George, Jack Waterbury, from Fredericton. I told him we have Harold and William [Ween] Nash. to change places. If we’re going to Charles Solomon and then a fellow catch up, we have to change places. I from Tobique and his wife. I made told him, see that rock way up in comedy. I made people laugh, I was front, in the middle of the river. Yeah. like a clown on the river. I chased I told him you jump on that, jump on them guys. I chased Charles, they’d the rock so that we can switch. The butt their canoe against me. And he canoe don’t stop, we switch and keep turned around and said, don’t do on going. He looked like an otter that, if you want to go by, go by, jumping the boat. We had a hard don’t fool around. When I got to time, but our canoe came in. The Woodstock—and Woodstock was Chestnut Canoe Company, the peo- from here [his house] to the Devon ple that represented us, came in Park Save Easy—and the reservation, number one. And I caught them right you could see the Indians along the on the end and I come in number shore there, cheering for their guy. two. But I chased them twenty-seven ‘White Pete’, Peter Paul from miles to get number two. And there Woodstock and his son, and Gregory were only three canoes that came in and the other one, we went right there, sixty-three miles, the rest of between them. We were right beside them all gave up. We got our prize. them and they were going fast, I got We had a silver cup, we had our right to the reserve and I went right money we had a bag of flour and by them. Ah Ron, they said, what silver pillows. Big cushions, fancy you want to do that for? They went cushions. And they said, you guys for lunch and didn’t come back. We have won prizes. Yeah. We laid right came down through the rapids out on that deck when they were slower. Harold Sappier, Georgie, five interviewing us. He said, Ron. And I Indian canoes hit them rapids and said yeah. He said, can we ask you a they went swimming. Our canoe hit question. And I told him, yeah, what it, jumped in the air, had a half boat is it. For the double the money, full of water. I told John to bail the would you go back? I told him, no water out. Bail the water out and way. Coming down is easy, but keep it going, bail the water out. I you’re not going to get me to paddle was number one all the way. I made a back up there. No way would I mistake when I switched places and paddle back up. Nine hours and my partner. How did I know he eighteen minutes, it’s a long time. I

89 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

told him, paddling up against the flowed just like water. Do you know current is something else, might take how long it takes to make a thousand you two days. It’s the hardest thing. dollars? But then that same week they called Alice: No. us over town, and they had passage Ronald: Two days. And I said you know tickets, airline tickets, the longest how long it takes to make ten thou- regatta in the world 450 miles. Lake sand dollars? Almost a, better than a of Mississippi, fifteen thousand month. Everything comes easy after dollar purse. I said, no way. I’m not that. going to be crocodile bait, no. You Alice: So that was how you got in the start from Illinois and down to Baton fur business. Rogue. Yeah, I’d be one fish bait too, Ronald: I’ve been in the fur business crocodiles. I told them no. I know ever since I was sixteen. That’s fifty them waters, they’re bad. No, not years ago. Fifty years, and I became with a canoe, maybe something else, the best in New Brunswick. I built a but not with a canoe. I want to live a name for myself and a legend. People little longer. Fifteen thousand dollar know me from everywhere. And I purse. I didn’t care about the purse, met a lot of people, in fisheries, game it’s fighting the current. You got dead wardens everywhere, even the posts coming out of the water, turn- RCMP. I quit that one year, because I ing your canoe over and swim for was working and had a steady job. your life. And them crocs, make a Get this, I was working, I didn’t do lunch out of you. When I was a the beavers for five years. That’s young fellow and going to school, I when I got married, Phyllis and them came home one evening after supper. were born. When Phyllis and them I walked in there, on the floor in my were about ten, twelve years old, I father’s house there was seventy- still had hard times. I have a hard eight raccoon carcasses. And in the time to eat from one day to another. basement, he had one hundred and Didn’t know where the next meal twenty-two beaver carcasses, seven- would be coming from. One day we teen red foxes. He was all alone. And had to—in the summer time—we I told him, I want to learn how to do had to paddle from one island to this. He looked at me and he said, another fishing for something to eat. you want to learn. And I said, yes, I We’d go pick raspberries and make want to learn so that I can help you, pies. Apples, when the fall of the year okay. When I was growing up and came. I dreaded winter coming, hard learning, a lot of times, I regret them winters. So that the next year, I told words. But a lot of times, I felt the my father, what’s wrong with me? rawhide on my back if I made a I’m not stupid. What do you mean, mistake. But I done pretty good. he said. Why am I struggling so hard Alice: It paid off? for? So I turned around. And he said, Ronald: Yes, but once I mastered it. I what are you going to do? I told him, became the best, number one. And all I’m going to the Crown land office. he did was help me out. Money I’m going to call the Chief game

90 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1 warden and tell him what I am going cooked, could you bring me a piece. I to do. So I called him up, ordered want to see what it’s like. Sure him right around. I ordered him right Shawnee. When that raccoon was around. He said, you get over here cooked, you take that heavy fat, you then. So I go over there. He said, take it all off, skin it off and then all there’s a truck there, those two guys you have is meat. It’s a hundred will help you. Stretchers. I went times better than a chicken and it’s upstairs and get my stretchers down crispy. and all my fox stretchers, otters, Alice: Have you had it recently? mink, muskrats and beaver stretch- Ronald: Yes. ers, my tools. And I brought them Alice: Let me know when you have it over and I opened up a fur business. again, I want to try it. I took over my fur business and my Ronald: My uncle Frank said, you father’s. And I told the game war- missed a lot. I told him yes, nobody dens. I told them, there, I’m going to ever told me. It tastes pretty good, start my own business. From now on, yeah, that’s just like a little chicken. A from this day on, wherever you go, lot crispier, no taste, no smell, it’s you tell the people I’m open for crispy. And he told me, you throw business. You tell them trappers. them away for nothing. But nobody Okay. And he did too. We were knee cooks them. And he said, yeah, deep and we had about over fifty, they’re nice. They took five, Walter sixty customers. And beavers flowed Brooks. My father cooks some, he like water. That’s that time when I cooked three for us. And after that I started feeding the Indian reserves, said, I’ll never make fun of more every where. I started feeding every- raccoons again. body and everybody came. Benedict Alice: I guess everybody has their own would come along with his big sled. preference of meat. Give me five of them, Ron, he would Ronald: Yeah, whatever. But I’ll tell you say. I would say, Dick, go pick them another thing, what the people up out yourself. Dick would come here don’t know. Or what the white around and get two or three. Tina is people out there don’t know, not just hungry, she wants some more. Roger the Indians. I had black people, but and Rita, Roger would come down I’ll tell you something else. Chinese, there. Artie, his father, would come came over to see me. I had five down there too. And then Tony Chinese people come over. He said, Gabriel’s father, he took two. Give Ronald I hear from people that you him a couple of them small ones. give meat away. People that are Raccoons are good to eat, but I didn’t needy, hard up. I get paid for this see any Indians take them. Walter carcass by the pound. I told him the Brooks and Tom Brooks and Paul and fat and everything I do, I sell it. I told Frank, Pete and Robert, Clarence, him carcasses I sell, they go to the Hubert’s father, they wanted rac- fertilizer and they go for making coons, beaver and muskrat. I told detergents, soap, and talcum. Why, Walter, when you get that raccoon what did you want? He wants to buy

91 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

all the wildcats off of you. I told him I Chinese restaurants. Chop Suey and don’t know how many are there. all that. He said Ron, what people Took them out, they’re all frozen, so don’t know, won’t hurt them. He we took them all out and piled them said, I’ll guarantee you, when we use over there. these, they won’t know any different. Wildcats are this long, just like a dog, And they have been coming back no fat on them, it’s all white meat. I’ll and forth after that. Wolastoq Park give you five dollars apiece for them. also comes to see me. The ranchers, Paid for them, put them on there. I they come over to see me, Saint John, said, people come here for meat to Halifax, Truro, Sackville, Moncton. eat. He said yes, we’re the same thing So you don’t know what you’re here. I said, what are you going to do eating when you’re out there. And with them? What are you going to they say that Indians eat bad. There’s make out of them? He looked at me everything, more, then just Indian and started laughing. Chow mein. I bread. told him, oh God. Seven Seas, those END OF TAPE TWO

92 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

6. Leaving the seeds for next year

CHARLES SOLOMON SR. PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION

“What made it good as far as medicine is concerned, she had all kinds of them. And she would always like to take me, because I always helped her with different kinds of medicine. And then explaining to me what it’s good for, and the time to get it, you know. You take like calamus root, we get that in the fall, before the frost hits the ground. And it’s very, very important, because another thing that you do is have a knife when your digging up Calamus Root. Calamus Root almost grows on top of the ground. You take the knife on each side and clear away Mother Earth, and then right on the knees, you take a knife and cut all them little roots. The reason why you do that, you’re leaving the seeds like for next year, that way you don’t kill the plant at all. You know, you take the root..”.

Plate 6.1: Kiwhosuwasq or Calamus Root (photo by Viktoria Kramer)

93 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: I would like to know something Indians always liked to settle close to about Jemseg, to begin with. the river. And this is where they use Charles: Jemseg. A lot of our people, to get their food. You always had lived along the Saint John River, as canoes, they travelled by canoes. far as Jemseg is concerned. Where And there was a lot of people there they’re going to put that bridge, I in St. Mary’s. They use to go, take noticed that they have been digging summer, they use to go way down up a lot of things, but not the bones. Brown’s Flat, Westfield, Grand Bay. And this is one thing, when I went All them places, especially when the down there, I was telling them, if you tourists use to come. Summertime, find any bones, for them to stop. they go there and sell their baskets or Alice: Yes. crafts that they made. Charles: It was agreeable. This is one Alice: Did they make much money thing that I was telling Pat. And I back then? said, well, it’s all right to dig. Just as Charles: The money wasn’t all that. It long as they don’t find bones. wasn’t really that much. You see, Alice: What was that place called, what you can buy for a dollar then, it where they’re digging, was it called was just like two hundred dollar bills Indian Point? today. Charles: Well, yeah. Another thing, Alice: Yes. there was a lot of settlers that settled Charles: You can buy bread, eggs. And along there, white people. This is one I could remember my father and thing, that a lot of things they are mother—you know, when they were finding really don’t mean that they making baskets—here during the belong to us. The white settlers were winter months. This was something really the ones settling along there. that they were doing during winter Alice: But they find a lot of like beads months. And they make baskets all and arrowheads. winter. And then they just sell for Charles: Well, this is where, I think, whatever they put on the table. And where we always like to join our they have a great, big box, where brother, white people. We take them they put fancy baskets. These are the in just like our brothers. ones that they take during the sum- Alice: Did Indian people use to settle mer months, because my father and there? mother use to go down Brown’s Flat, Charles: Along there and along the on this side of Westfield. And they Saint John River Valley and I could seem to take sections really. My aunt, remember down below that, my grandfather and my grand- Gagetown. And a lot of Indians are mother, they use to go to Westfield, still there, some. And coming up we where they use to sell their baskets have Oromocto. And there again, as and whatever. They had a lot of ash we come right straight up the Saint really, they made baskets right there. John River, you know, just like St. And that’s another thing people Mary’s. It use to be down the old were doing. reserve, down next to the river. Another thing they were doing quite a

94 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

bit of, was to sell a basket. It’s when about so long—metal—that had a you make a basket, that’s when the little hook. And when they hit the white people would like to have that. fish, they pull that hook out, and it And sometimes they wait until the opens up. It’s like a… well it’s sharp. basket is finished, and they want to That way the fish can’t get away. It’s buy that right off. And because they like this. Their shells were hard and see how it was made, when it was good eating. But I remember, I was finished. And this is one thing that just young, my father use to get them they... and it was good food, really. Alice: This is probably a learning proc- Alice: What year was this? ess for them. Charles: Well, what year? Well, I must Charles: Yeah. And right there, have been five or six years old, I’m Eqpahak—that’s Springhill—where a seventy-six, it must be seventy years lot of Indians use to live. That’s ago [about 1927-1928]. I remember where they have the driving range, my father bringing fish home. An- right there. And on the island, you other thing that they use to spear was know. Savage Island is another place, Salmon. They use to spear salmon at where the Indians use to gather there night. And they always had it right quite a bit. There even use to be a down here at the bar, good place track. [Kingsclear] for salmon. And my Alice: On the island? father was the one that always hit Charles: Yeah, Savage Island. They use two, there was two that always go to gather there quite a bit. That use to together. They go in a canoe and they be where they run, you know, race have another big pole they put up in track. This is where they use to front. And that’s where they put compete. A lot of Indians were good birch bark and they light that. runners. I could remember my father They’re heading down stream, the and my uncle and a lot of other light seems to draw the fish. It would names, that they use to go there and draw the animals to the light and at compete. And then they use to live that time it was fish, salmon. there. Frank Francis, my father’s buddy there, Alice: Is there a burial ground on that they always go together. Frank island? Francis told him, he said, well Charles: Yeah, there was a lot of them brother, my turn to hit the salmon then. What they use to do—take tonight. Okay. They were heading round about May around June—they down stream, down river and my were after fish. They use to spear father saw a big splash. He told him, them. It’s funny too, how them fish you want to be ready, pretty good use to come up the current. Quite a size one coming. So when the salmon heavy current right there. The fish came along by the canoe, along side would go up and then they’d roll of the canoe, the old man hit the right down over the rips. And that’s salmon. Naturally he let go of the when people use to go and spear pole and it went underneath the them. And they use to have a spear canoe. And he went overboard, ten or

95 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 6.2: Salmon fishing by torchlight, New Brunswick, in a scene similar to what Mr. Solomon describes (Public Archives of Canada, C-30873).

twelve feet away from the canoe. My more than what they wanted to eat. father had to get him. This is one Probably two salmon a night. And if thing you never lose, the salmon, there’s some more that are not so because the spear that you made is successful in going after salmon; my just like (pause) I have one small one father and his buddy will go get a here that I use when I go to a lot of couple extra more. You know and schools. And it’s the same principle give them to the people. Oh, take that speared for salmon, just like a years back, anything that you receive claw. They use to use a bone, for like from the water or Mother Earth— killing salmon. Then they bind that, well you always like to say that you it’s a long pole about ten feet long. receive. And there again, that’s the And then they used raw hide— raw reason why we use tobacco. When hide will stretch you know. Just as we are successful in hunting or soon as you hit the salmon, well then fishing—well, when we get fish ,we like jaws, they just seem to open up. put tobacco right in the water. We And then when the salmon gets thank the Great Spirit that we re- inside there, it seems to pull in. And ceived food, you know. And we have then you’re sure of your salmon, to give something back. And it comes when you hit them. And this is one from—well, the tobacco is Red Wil- thing that—another thing that they low, that we use. And that’s the never done, they never killed any tobacco that I use now and I make a

96 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 6.3: Paqlous or Angelica (photo by Viktoria Kramer)

lot of it. Then I carry it with me all take like calamus root, we get that in the time. And lots of times too, the fall, before the frost hits the whenever, like going after like medi- ground. And it’s very, very impor- cine, there again. Indian medicine is a tant, because another thing that you (pause) That’s where I learned, was do is have a knife when your digging from my grandmother. I’m a medi- up Calamus Root. CALAMUS Root cine man and my grandmother was a almost grows on top of the ground. medicine woman. And she was, she You take the knife on each side and was really good. She use to deliver clear away Mother Earth, and then babies here on this reserve. And the right on the knees, you take a knife women didn’t have to go to the and cut all them little roots. The hospital at all. My aunt was another reason why you do that, you’re one, she was really a midwife. And I leaving the seeds like for next year, know between my grandmother and that way you don’t kill the plant at my aunt, they delivered all the babies all. You know, you take the root. that were born on this reserve. What Once you get that, well you naturally made it good as far as medicine is bring it home, you wash it and concerned, she had all kinds of them. scrape the dirt. And then after you And she would always like to take clean it, you break it off about two to me, because I always helped her with three inches long. Your darn needle different kinds of medicine. And then and string, and put in right through explaining to me what it’s good for, the centre of that medicine, and you and the time to get it, you know. You hang it up to dry for the winter

97 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

months. And that Calamus Root is money. But you’ve got to get food. just like penicillin, it’s good for any That’s what my father was even kind of sickness. And this is one saying, he said, that’s what you want, thing (pause) Oh, they have so many to put food on the table. And my roots that we hang. Just like a Bone brother and I use to go—and have a Set, which is very, very important as whole load of baskets, both of us—go far as our system is concerned. Bone across the river and go to farmers Set will harden your bones in your over there. They use to get a lot of body. And then, it’s very, very good pork, pig heads and they never as for the cold. If you have a cold, the charge you nothing. We use to get best thing you can have is Sarsapa- them and my mother liked them— rilla. You put them together with the made head-cheese. This was one Calamus Root. And what Sarsaparilla thing that put food on the table. And does is the one that makes you sweat. years ago, they had no welfare here. You come to a sweat when you have No, whatever you put on the table, a cold or flu, you take them together, you had to earn yourself. Everyone then cover up. Just when you go to learned to make baskets when we bed at night, so you will sweat it were young. I use to make bottoms, right up, and then the next day you you know, just like handle baskets. feel good. Now, I was telling the I’d weave the bottom and just put it doctor—and she was even saying, aside and somebody else would take you know, you don’t come and see it and shape it, weave it up. So it was me anymore. And I said, well, I’m a important. And this is one thing that doctor too. And I said, ever since— I’m thinking about. A lot of young well thinking back to what my people today, anybody that wants to grandmother taught me. And she learn to make a basket. Like summer- was pretty happy. And she was time, the past few years, they use to saying, she said, you know, I know gather over at Mactaquac Park. And your medicine is powerful. It’s a 100 then they use to have, like sometimes percent pure. Their medicine, they the whole day—some people camp- dilute their medicine, so it’s not pure. ing over there. They come over here So you have to go back to them, it’s in the morning, then we show them the money that they’re thinking how to make the basket and they about. But with us, you know, we make the basket themselves. never think about money. Anybody Alice: Oh really, are these white kids? gives medicine to anybody, they give Charles: No, our children. you tobacco, just in place for that Alice: Our children? medicine. Then baskets again, they’re Charles: And this is important, because very important you know. That’s we’re just handing it down to our how my father and mother put bread people. on the table. Take the winter months, Alice: We don’t see too much of that there use to be a lot of farmers here, anymore, do we? across the river. And by making Charles: Well, that’s one thing I’ve been baskets—at times, we didn’t get no doing.

98 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: I mean up here, that’s good. But body asked me, they want to give the in other places, other reserves. country back to me. And I said, I Charles: No, not that many people now. wouldn’t want it now, because the Alice: No. white man has spoiled our country. Charles: There’s only one or two in St. And no way that you could bring it Mary’s, that can really sit down and back. In order, the way, to bring it make a basket. Richard Polchies, he’s back by doing away with the factory. about the only one. All that sort. Corruption going in the Alice: I think Mike Sacobie too. I ran air. Just like the Saint John River, my into him at the store the other night grandfather had told me—I was just and he was making baskets in his young—he said we use to go up river basement. here, get water and make tea. And he Charles: Yeah, this is one thing, if we was telling me, that you’ll see the don’t pass it on to ours. time that you will not be able to use Alice Paul; Yes, we’ll lose it. the water, which is now. I wouldn’t Charles: And it’s important really. And want to drink that water. All them then we use to go across the river to towns up river, all them factories, all sell the baskets and we’d bring that soot going in the Saint John home—lots of times, Joe and I use River. How can you purify that? By to—all we could haul. Potatoes, and purifying that, you would have to carrots, turnip and eggs, chicken, eliminate all the sewers that flow in beets and pork. You name it, we had the Saint John River. What my grand- everything, what we trade for our father had told me. And he said the baskets. And my uncle, well, every same way with fish, salmon would one of them on the reserve were be the same way. In just a few years, making baskets then. You take like that salmon here, we won’t be able to this time of the year, you know, and eat it from the corruption from the there again, you don’t hear anybody river. Hurting, well it would be pounding ash. It’s really too bad, hurting everybody. So, if we look at it because we’re losing that. Not only all the corruption that the white that, but as far as ash is concerned, person had done makes you wonder. there is so much acid rain and killing Because about three years ago, a lot of ash, right today. Not only ash, Fredericton, they asked me if I could even maple. The farmer over across take part in purifying water in the the river, every spring he use to make Saint John River. And I said ,I can’t. I sap. And he gathers the sap to make said, I can’t do it. And they asked me, candy or whatever, sugar or what- why? He said, the Native people ever he was making. And he was should be involved in this. I said, saying, it kind of hurt, because the Native people would look at you and trees look good, but they’re drying think you are crazy, trying to purify up and they are dying and that’s not the water. Look at all they would good. And a lot of people have asked have to do, by eliminating sewer me what can you do to avoid that, I that’s been dumped into the Saint said, well. This was one thing some- John River. And how do you purify

99 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

the water? That’s the reason why I them up, one by one. And when you wouldn’t take part. They were put are done, you start all over again. out. And I said, I’m put out too. And Hide and seek was another one. You this is why I think I don’t want no had like a goal that you had to go to part, as far as I’m concerned. Look at and the one that you caught last has our air, the air is the same way. And I to be there for a little while. Ready or was just thinking, all the capsules not, I’m coming. It was all fun. Indian that they put in space. This is some- wrestling. Indian wrestling was just thing I have been watching for getting someone off balance. You put (pause) since they started. Every time your hand out like this and you haul a capsule goes outer space—the them towards you. Just as soon as ozone is open at the Arctic and you step out of line, then you win. Antarctic—and every time a capsule Really you had to be quite clever, you goes out look, how much pressure is had to be quick. Then they use to put on earth? Sickness on this planet have little sticks. They use to cut earth today. Cancer, there was hardly sticks, that looked like a gun or a any known before they started doing little rolling pin. Or then they use to that, and everybody has cancer. And hold them in their hand, like this the air that we are breathing, it’s not [straight up]. And then just open good. And there again, as I look at it, them up on the table. And then we and I said, ever since they put cap- use to put like, single stick was just sules in space, there’s always corrup- like one penny, then like a little gun tion on this planet earth. Volcano would be like five. And then double eruption, earthquakes, severe thun- gun, they use to call it, double gun, der storms, tornadoes. that could mark for ten, like ten END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE points. Once you go all the way TAPE ONE SIDE TWO around and pick up all them sticks, it Alice: So, what did you do up here for was a lot of fun. Then you had to use entertainment and stuff like that, a a splint, make a little hook, that’s long time ago? why all these sticks are like this. And Charles: What? just as soon as the pile moves, you Alice: What did you do for recreation? had to stop and you do the same Charles: We had all kinds of recreation, thing. like playing hockey, it was very Alice: It’s just like those sticks that they strenuous and it was for fun. The sell in the stores now, them pick up way we played, was not how many sticks. goals that each side had, it’s exercise Charles: Then after it’s all finished, then we get from that. You never tried to you put out how many one’s you out play anybody, it’s a game. It was have. And the one that has the most, a game of fun. The same way with well, was the winner. It was fun, Jack Stones. You know, take summer- really. Another thing was bones, time, big stones, five stones. We that’s they called it [Altestakon] They would play and then what you do, use to have a wooden dish, use to you throw them up and start picking paint red on top and white on the

100 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 6.4: Jack Solomon, uncle of Charles Solomon, paddling a canoe (Canadian Museum of Civilization, 16448).

at the exhibit, down by the post other. They use to put a blanket on office, upstairs. Carving on that the bench and then if it flips over paddle is something out of this then (pause) it’s quite a game. There world. It’s there and these are the again, they used sticks and the one things that they use to do. I remem- that has the most was the winner. ber Dave, when he use to carve quite They use to go along time. I could a bit. He use to make Indian heads, remember checkers, they make their about that big. They use them for own checkers. Little square ones, out door stoppers. And he would have it of wood, they marked them. And so all the feathers and face Pause) they were all good carvers anyway. Veronica use to do all the painting. And all these were carved, little Dave would do the carving. Joe and I blocks were carved. One thing you use to go get cedar for Dave, so he want to see, carving. My uncle was could be working. That put bread on one of them that has a paddle down

101 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

the table. See by working together. down by the brook. And they take Now, different games again, just like the tub down there and build fire and tug-of-war. It was a lot of fun. they wash clothes. They’d be there all Alice: Did you have any dances? day. Everybody would go down Charles: My father was real good, and there and take their clothes. And you my uncle was another one that was. just put your clothes on the bush or Jack Solomon would get the people on a limb or wherever you can. And together and dancing, Indian danc- a line, a clothesline made, they string ing. My father was a chanter, well, it out and they’re there all day. Once my uncle was a chanter too. It was the clothes are washed and dried, really fun getting together in the they fold them up and put them back evenings. And another thing that in the pan that they took. By getting they use to do a lot was, when any- together like this, they use to take body was building a house, one their food, so they could cook it right didn’t have to build a house by there and a (pause) himself. All the men would get Alice: It’s not like that today. together and go and help. Everyone Charles: No, people not getting to- of them would go and help to build gether. It’s a darn shame, because to his house. Now the women all got see that we can do and helping one together and cooked together, and another. This is one thing that we are they all eat together. Oh, it was really lacking, if you don’t have this [indi- nice having people working together cating money], nobody wants to look like that. Another thing that I could at you. It’s a real, darn shame. You remember, we didn’t have no run- take the old people, they suffer a lot. ning water. The women use to go Because you take young people, they

Plate 6.5: Kingsclear, celebrating Corpus Christi day, ca. 1887 (Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, P5-170).

102 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

laugh at them, when they see them glad. If you fall, you could break a trying to bring in some groceries hip. It could happen so easy. And the from the store, going into the house. young people, I don’t know what You know, instead of them going they’re thinking about. Thinking over there and picking up that pack- about all right, wherever they can get age. I can remember when I was liquor and smoking up. These are the living in Old Town, they were always things. And we are still trying to helping the old people. When you reach our young people, as far as that see someone driving in or sometimes is concerned. You tell a person that they come in a taxi, they have about it’s going to hurt, they still do it. The ten to twelve bags. My grandson doctor tells you that if you drink would go and help, you tell him, you more, that you are going to die, they go right inside and I’ll bring these in don’t listen. Like my niece now, I told for you. These are the things that the her three years ago, and I said, you young people are not doing today. know what’s going to happen, your You know, we’re not getting together going to kill yourself by drinking. enough. It’s a darn shame really. That’s just what’s happening now. Because as I see it, you take an old She’s in Saint John, burned herself person ,even just to help him across out. You know, it’s alcohol, it’s not the street, across the road, it means a good. It’s a darn shame really, be- lot, means a lot. Even right now, with cause I don’t know, a lot of us can’t me, anybody want to give me a hand seem to wake up. walking down an icy road, gee, I’m Alice: I don’t know. I have children, I

Plate 6.6: Kingsclear First Nation on Corpus Christi day, ca. 1887 (Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, P5-379).

103 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

have three of them, and they drink something I see, a lot of people don’t and drug. You can’t tell them any- see, until one step to your grave. This thing, they have all the answers. is one thing that—so it’s really funny How was it for you? I know I drank too—I could remember my grandpar- for about seven years, somebody ents. My parents, my uncle, none of came along and helped me. them use to have dances, you know. Charles: Well, with me. I have thirty-six And you take it on the feast day, years [sobriety]. Corpus Christi, there would be so Alice: I’m going on twenty-four years many people here. There use to be [sobriety]. tents where we lived, you know, Charles: There are the things that was setting up tents. And at that time you important. I just had to go to one know, really, the worshipping was a meeting and I could see how it was lot different than today. This is where going to help me. Maynard is my you’re not seeing Corpus Christi and sponsor and he—I use to pick him up now St. Anne’s Day. It’s not the way when I was down Connecticut. He we use to celebrate St. Anne’s Day. was so low. Well, it’s still going on, but not the Alice: Maynard from, Houlton. way we use to celebrate St. Anne’s Charles: No, from Tobique. Boy, and Day. We would celebrate right from now ever since he went into AA, he the highway and go all the way helped a lot of people. He helped my down. We’d sing and pray, you say brother, him and Dave worked the Rosary. together in Niagara Falls, New York. Alice: So, when did all of that change? Maynard kept after him, kept after Charles: I don’t know who. Father him. And what happened there was Coghlan was about the last one that (pause) Dave even on the job, you was here. know. Even get a taxi and bring him Alice: Father Hogan? home a fifth of whiskey. And on the Charles: Coghlan. That was quite a few weekend, when he was coming years back, I was quite old then. So home, he bought two fifths of whis- these are the things that are passing key. He finished one and he was us, you know, make you wonder. So starting on the second one, before he the young people, I don’t know. got to the Merritt Parkway. And he There’s something about that, that I was going to pass this car and then know is getting away from church. this other car passed one that was in And it makes you wonder really, front of him. He had to take the there’s going to be the time and the centre strip. And he was saying, if time isn’t too far away either. Look at there was any trees there, then I when they see the Blessed Mother in could have killed myself. So, just Halifax and she was weeping, crying. when he pulled over, saw a place Just like I was telling Natalie, just this where he could stop. He went by this past Sunday. I seen our Lord, you abutment thing and smashed his know, I seen our Lord appear in the bottle. He said, I almost had to kill fire, when the fire was burning. And myself before I woke up. It’s just this is giving us a sign and this is one

104 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

thing, I have a gift of vision. And this Charles: Like tonight, would be like is one thing that I’ve been trying to New Years Eve. Gerri and I went to tell the people, the vision that I see. the store and bought a lot of grocer- This is one thing that’s important. ies and the store was going to close Well, some of our young people may about nine or nine-thirty. After we listen. got all the groceries and we came Alice: There’s a lot of destruction, home. Gerri said we forgot the most corruption and all that stuff going on. important thing, forgot the bread. So Charles: This is why I say there’s so I hurried up and went back to the many things going on. Alice: It’s not store. Theresa or Chugger always for the good either. Charles: No, it’s chased me, but they didn’t. I got to not. You wonder what’s going to catch that store before it closed. You become of us, because the signs that know, there was a piece of meat that I we are getting. And just like when I didn’t pay for when we came was living in Old Town, we use to through. And I took the label off and say the rosary every night. In the I took it back and I bought the bread. summertime there was about eight- I told this young man, I said, I just een of us saying the rosary. We were went through here about fifteen in a big circle, like this. We had the minutes ago and I didn’t pay for this. Blessed Mother, a statue that I have, He said, you’re very honest, very few in there and had a little small rosary people would do that. So, after I paid that they had in the hand. We were for the bread and I paid for that meat, busy talking and when I looked, I I just drove out on Stillwater Avenue. seen the little rosary swaying back Right on the corner there was this and forth, you know. And I said, I get man standing, he looked cold, there the message, the Blessed Mother was snow on the ground. I stopped, wants us to pray. And that’s when just as soon as he stepped in the car, Ernestine was saying, I wonder if our my dome light wouldn’t come on. prayers are being answered. And I And I never thought about nothing, said, yeah. You can’t prove it by me. I’m thinking that it might have been Just where she was sitting, sitting frozen. After he got in he said, I’ve right across from me, and the Blessed been waiting for you for a long time. Mother appeared. And she was I didn’t know how to take it. And just holding the rosary and she was as soon as he stepped in and closed smiling. And after we said the rosary the door, that’s what he told me. He and I shared with everyone then. I said, I’ve been waiting for a long tell them I got the message, that’s time and he said that he was cold. I when we started. And this is one figured when I got to Old Town, I thing, our prayers are being an- would buy him some coffee. I never swered. There again, she was won- went no more than two hundred feet dering if our Lord was on earth, and I and he said, this is as far as I go. It told her, yeah. struck me funny again, you know, if Alice: People question that. Well, we he was cold he could walk that can’t see him, where is he? distance. And just when he was

105 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

going to leave, I put my hand out and asked Alberta. Alberta, that’s and I said, Happy New Year to you. what she was praying for. She was He said, God Bless You. Oh, the wishing that she have a chance to go shock went right in my hand. It’s as if down. I said, I’ll be right back. I went I wasn’t touching nothing. So, when after our buddy there, so she got he stepped out, my light didn’t come ready, so then we went. That after- on again, he closed the door and noon after mass, we started out when I looked he was gone. Now I down there. Well, at Communion was telling them, Our Lord is on time we sang ‘I am the Bread of Life’, Earth. After I got home Gerri said, everybody sings. Coming back, there what happen, what happened. My was all these cars ahead of us. We eyes were just dancing. She thought I were about Pittsfield, when I looked, hit somebody or somebody hit me, I saw this man walking. He was and I told her what had happened. I hitchhiking and he was just looking know that’s our Lord. I told the where he was going and just pointing priest, and the priest told me, don’t up like this. And I told Alberta, I’m hold that, give it to the people. He going to give him a ride. He didn’t said a lot of people are not going to see nobody, so when we got right to believe, but it’s worth while sharing. where he was at, I stopped. He said, I And it felt so good. And after that, came from the sky, came from the quite a few times, I have encountered sky. And the way she saw him was a the Lord. Another time Alberta and little differently than me. She told me I—they had a mission down around that he had like a brief case, that he Waterville. And I had no money and had, it was like a little tool box. And I wanted to go down there. So after when I stopped, he look tired. And mass, eight o’clock mass in the morn- he asked us if we were going to ing, I went in the other part. There Bangor, he wanted to go as far as was the front part of the house. And Bangor. Yeah, so he got in and he a knock came on the door and one of looked pretty tired. I had my Bible on our men that play guitar, he came to the dash, that’s when he stepped in the door. And said, how would you and his eyes pierced right on that. like to go to a meeting in Waterville? And we started out and I was asking He said, I’ll share gas with you, that’s him where he wanted to go. He all I wanted you know. I said, well. wanted to go to the YMCA or the Gerri said she didn’t feel too good, Salvation Army. And I asked Alberta, she said, you’ll be going coming I said we are going right through alone. I said, I never travel alone, I there, well before we got there, we always pray. And this man said, my were talking Maliseet. He opened his wife is going to take a couple of girls eyes, listening, he looked kind or down to Augusta. Be down at four pale. He was just looking and listen- o’clock when the mass is over. And ing, you know. And Alberta said, you that’s when we went. And I said, know the one that we have here is that’s great. And when Gerri said somebody special. And she could that I’d be coming alone, so I went smell roses.

106 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: Oh, really. overseas there. Monsignor from the Charles: When our Lord is handy, you Vatican, and the Bishop from Eng- can smell roses or incense. And then I land, and there was quite a few. So I started singing that, ‘I am Bread of had a chance to tell them about our Life’. He opened his eyes and was people. Then one thing that they smiling. And I asked Alberta just asked me was, what kind of religion where the Salvation Army was. And did the Indians have before Jesuit that’s what she told him, anybody Priest came? And I said, they had a that’s travelling, the Salvation Army very strong religion. Their belief was always takes in people that are talking to a tree. You take a man that travelling, that don’t have hardly any he figured that he committed sin. money. His clothes were like burlap And he goes in the woods all by bags. Those are the kind of clothes himself and walk up to a birch tree, that he had on and he had a beard, white birch. Take his knife out and you know. cut a slit in the bark and open it up END OF TAPE ONE SIDE TWO and talk to that tree. Just like going to TAPE TWO SIDE ONE a confession to a priest. And after he Charles: Just before we got to Bangor, gets all done, he folds it back and he on the other end, I was asking her feels good after. So, that’s the reason where the Salvation Army was. She why I say our Religion is so strong, said Exit 48 Broadway. It was just a we use Mother Nature, that’s helping little ways, where that Salvation us. Lots of times, we go by the brook. Army is. When we got there and It’s not to pray, you do meditating, when we stopped, I shook hands thinking about our Great Spirit, with him again. I noticed that he had which means a lot, really. That Mon- gloves, homemade ones, you know. signor from the Vatican was even And it’s what he said again, God saying, that’s really great, you know. Bless You, and I got a shock again. This is something to look at. Some- He never shook hands with Alberta thing that the Indians believe and it’s at all, just me. And then when he got so powerful. And these are the things out, Alberta even swung around and that I was even telling them. We he was gone. Disappeared right talked to the Great Spirit, very first there. So, these are the things that’s thing in the morning when you wake important, because telling the people up. We thank the Great Spirit that you know, that our Lord is here on we’re able to open our eyes, move Earth. And it means so much to a lot our hands, that we are able to speak of us. It means much to me, because to our brothers and sisters. And we I’d like to see our young people come talk to Mother Earth, just like it back. You go to a church and what do means so much for all of us. Mother you see? Nothing but old people. Earth is where everything comes What’s going to happen in years to from, even the animals, what we eat. come? Another thing in our beliefs, I We thank the Great Spirit for that, had a chance to talk to all the differ- when we kill a deer. That’s why I was ent denominations that came from saying, a while ago, to have tobacco.

107 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

You put back to Mother Earth, be- thing we done. And I said it in Mali- cause you’re giving thanks for receiv- seet and Imelda was praying in ing that food. That Jesuit Priest was English. They were so pleased at that even saying—well, that Monsignor when we were all done. They were was saying—that’s really something even saying that this was the first to think about, what’s so powerful. meeting that they ever went to, that Like the trees, we look at the trees, opened with a prayer. So great, you they don’t mean nothing to us. With know, and it’s so meaningful. This an Indian, it means everything. I was was where Imelda could explain even telling them too. And I said, you about the meaning of the smudging. take like a lumber company, that And we thank the Great Spirit, that comes in now and cuts all the trees. we are getting together with our They don’t stop and realize what brothers and sisters and they were all they are doing to us. A good size tree in a circle. This circle again is unity, produces enough oxygen for four being close together with your broth- people. And I said, if you cut all the ers and sisters. And there again, it trees down, where would we get our kind of opened their eyes. They were oxygen? And look at that way the air even saying that the first meeting is now. That purifies us, you know. that they ever went to, it was so Then I was even telling them, when meaningful. But all the meetings they we speak of being purified, we use do go to, they just have meetings. sweetgrass, tobacco, cedar and sage. Well, this is how I found it too. This is something that comes from Alice: Well, this is how I found it too, I Mother Earth. Those are the things went out to Calgary last year in May, that we use when we open our for Intervention, Crisis Intervention. programs. We smudge ourselves and And the Indian people, I didn’t see this is one thing that’s so powerful no smudging. And they were coming that it helps us. But every meeting from all over Canada, pretty well. I that we do go, there is always some- think I only seen it the one time and body doing the smudging. Which that was when they were having the they should really, because it means closing. They had Elders there saying so much to us. the prayer, but I didn’t see any Alice: But they don’t do that, like when smudging. you go outside to meetings that don’t Charles: There again, it’s so meaningful smudge. for us. That’s the reason why a lot of Charles: No. meetings are not successful, because Alice: Not any meeting that I’ve gone to they don’t have that. They’re not anyway. working out as far as the plans are Charles: Imelda and I went out ‘west’ concerned. And this is something and we were the guest of honour out that really is with us, it means so there. That was last year. There were much, and you feel so good too. story tellers from across Canada. Alice: Well, when I was done on site, Well, when we opened the meeting down Jemseg a couple of weeks ago, we done our smudging that’s the first Karen did smudging. She came

108 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

around to everybody, and it felt good chairs, little wheelbarrows. My father doing that. had some of them tables and chairs Charles: Last fall, when I went down little wheelbarrows. Duplisea was there, that’s what I done. We were always buying antiques and he was able to give thanks. And that’s the the one that bought all them. My reason why I ask if they find any father just let them go. bones, that the digging should cease. Alice: So, what’s the story behind the Alice: I started there about a month ago ‘little men’? and they told me the same thing, that Charles: Well, ‘little men’… just like my if they found human bones, every- father, my father kept one for a while, thing would stop. stayed with my father. Charles: Well, this is it. The Indians use Alice: Did he give him good luck? Did to be right close to the main river. It’s he watch over him? not where they’re digging and that’s Charles: Oh yeah, oh yeah. He was the reason why I say—well, just like busy. But he wouldn’t talk, not with Meductic and our people are all my father. They talked in their own under water, and that’s not good. language, they just chirped. That’s the reason why my father was Alice: Is it true that they look after even saying—just like Koluskap Indian people? (Glooscap) has snowshoes. And he Charles: Yeah. And what they use to do, was even saying that when anybody they use to go across the river and tampers with his snowshoes, they they could hear them singing, a were going to have bad luck. happy song. Be like a wedding, or a That’s what’s been happening every child being born. But when it was year, ever since they built the dam. sad, that meant somebody was going Look at all the destruction, in to die. And another thing, take years Woodstock and Hartland and them ago, what they used to see a lot was places. wesqotewik (ball of fire). They use to Alice: There was never any flooding come opposite here and then it before the dam? would burst. They’d know very well Charles: No, and these are the things that someone from down river was that my father was even saying, even going to die. It’s how they use to get the ‘little men’ that use to live in their messages. And from up river, kiwolatomuhsisihkuk(where little well, either Tobique or Woodstock, people live). That’s a name of a next day they’d hear somebody had brook, that’s above Elmucktahqek passed away. You haven’t seen them [Mactaquac] and that’s where they for quite a while. use to live. They flooded that. Well Alice: What about Pokiok? naturally, it’s bringing them bad luck. Charles: Pokiok, . There again, them little men use to be Alice: Okay, Nackawic. there. The reason why they were Charles: That’s where that mill is. And there is there’s a lot of clay there. And that point there, they use to gather this is something that they use to too. My father use to call that make all different things, tables, little Nelkwawekek, that’s Nackawic, just

109 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

like your arm pit. Pokiok, they used Brian and I went out there and it was that a lot, they use to get a lot of fish early in the morning. I told them, I’ll there. And then going out in the take this with me and call a moose. woods, that’s where they use to hunt. One call and the moose came right And that seems to be the place where out. Brian shot it, just like that. the moose would come. And I could Alice: What about birch bark canoes? remember my uncle, when he use to Charles: Birch bark canoes. I can re- take guides and guiding them out member my father, he had two there. And he was telling this war- canoes, and they could really hold. den, he said, ‘I’ll take this with me’. And this is where you have to be The moose horn. He said, ‘I’ll call the good or you wouldn’t have a birch moose right to you.’ And he didn’t bark canoe. Just like a feather really, believe him, he just laughed at him. it goes right on top the water. And My uncle had a rifle and this sports- the way it was made, well, cedar and man had a rifle. He asked him to they use ash for gunwhales. And come up where he was, on a rock. they use to use splints to bind it and ‘Oh, I’ll be all right.’ Then the moose it was all bark. And then they use to came over, because my uncle made a get pitch from spruce, spruce gum, call. And he could hear the moose they patch the seams. So this is where that was coming. When he came out it’s very, very important, as far as in the clearing, his ears were straight canoes are concerned. They use up like this and hair standing right canoes wherever they travel. Funny up on his back. And it came right too, when they go from one place to directly towards them. And my another, they don’t take hardly uncle—lucky he had a rifle—when anything, just a frying pan. When he shot the moose, it couldn’t have night comes, you just make a lean-to, been any farther from here to the just crawl right in. They have a spear floor [which wasn’t very far]. When and they get their fish. You wonder, the moose fell, that man standing really, because the things was plenti- below, was just shaking, he couldn’t ful. The food was plentiful. There bring his rifle up. That’s where they was a lot of fish, there was a lot of use to go a lot. Wherever you make a game. Take in the fall of the year, call, even if you are on the water, on a when they go after deer. Sometimes lake, they’ll go right out. And that’s they wait for a lot of snow and what they use to use, like hatchets, there’s always two hunters that killing a moose. Hit him over the always go together. head with a hatchet. And bow and Alice: Ronnie Paul was telling me when arrow is one thing they use to have. they chase moose or deer, either one, And these are the things that are that it would go in the snow some- important, because once you get times. It would not move too fast and them in the water, well, the moose the hide would come up on the legs can’t get away. They go right directly of the deer. where they’re called. And this is one Charles: Oh yeah, this is where lots of thing. Well, a couple of years ago, times—well, snowshoes was another

110 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 6.7: Snow shoes (photo by Viktoria Kramer)

thing that was important to us. looking shoes and they were made Snowshoes, I have a pair of snow- pretty fancy, pretty fine. And they shoes that were made in 1828. They were women’s snowshoes. The were made right here. women, they used yarn to weave the Alice: Who made them? lacing, so that made them different Charles: My great grandmother’s from the men. Men’s snowshoes, husband, Andrew Paul. And how I they have lacing that are quite wide, got them, Ruth Mills, they use to live because the men are heavier. But the up here. And I remember she was ladies snowshoes are woven pretty living down Island View. And she fine and the woman is light. So that’s was even saying that—well, she the difference between the men and asked me if I could make a belt for the women’s snowshoes. And when I her grandson, a motorcycle belt. And received them, I had two pair, I had I made it nice and wide, made it men’s too. But a rat must have got in, fancy, had a lot of brass. After I I have quite a hole in one. I didn’t try finished it and I took it down. She to repair nothing, I just left it as it is. said I haven’t got any money, but I But I take these with me all the time, have something that’s important to I go to a lot of schools. you. And she starts telling me the Alice: Yes, for show and tell? story about these snowshoes. And Charles: Just to explain what our people they were handed down to them too. use in the winter time, when they go When I received them—oh, nice after game for their food.

111 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: They also made sleds. that you screw in your boot, just Charles: Oh yeah, there again, our strap the front. Once you get down- people walked, they were good town, you just unhook it. Whoever walkers. I could remember going does it was tubular skates. There with my father. Take winter time, again, it’s not tubular, some of them, right to the woods, to go to it was just an open skate and you use Fredericton. Then when you came screws to screw on the boots. And back, there use to be a lot of teams these are the kind of skates we use to that use to haul wood, a lot of grocer- have. ies, a lot of potatoes, wood. What Alice: Would anyone have a picture of they carry and sell downtown. So, them? when they came back, their sleds are Charles: Oh dear, I don’t think so. It’s empty. We’d jump on, and we’d really too bad. And I had it, wasn’t come up with them. Then they had a too long ago that I had them the old train, they had a train at that time. fashion skates [indicating how they There use to be a lot of people travel- were worn]. They even had a little ling by train then. There was no wrench, they hook right on your roads. Even this road here. I could boots, inside your boot. I got a pair of remember when we had gravel road. them reachers and old fashion ones, I And it was just like a snake, the road still have them. And this is one thing was so crooked down here. And just that somebody should take a picture to think of it, there use to be… Well, of, and it would be important now. my father had a horse later on, was Alice: Maybe I could mention it to able to take the horse and go down- Karen. And we have a photographer town and they got some groceries, it, too, that will come and take pictures would take all day really. Going in, of what you have. you have some baskets that you sell Charles: Yes, I have snowshoes, moose at the market. Well, you trade for horn and baskets. I got old baskets food with the farmer, and that made that we made quite a while ago. it pretty handy. The road was rough. Alice: So, that would be okay with you? In the spring of the year, the road Charles: Yes, and these are things that was so soft and it was so muddy. we kept (pause) And to see these Even them hubs on the wheel, they’re things now, you know. Just like my quite high. They drag on some sister, my sister she made a lot of places, you know, where the mud baskets. And I don’t have too many, I was soaked. Just to think of it, you just have about two to three baskets skate right to Fredericton and that that she made. But Bob Atwin has all was a lot of fun. You can see every- kinds of baskets that Veronica made. body down here. I can remember my Bob has all kinds of baskets. father having them long, reachers Alice: Probably have to check with him they call them, they are about this too. We don’t see these things hardly long [indicating about one foot]. The any more. top piece was wood and they had Charles: No. one screw on the back. This is the one Alice: I have one basket at home that

112 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

George Nash made one time. Well, bit of Springhill. They use to live in Joey is twenty-four going on twenty- Meductic, then from there, they went five, so, I’ve had that basket that to Eqpahak. Is what they called it, long. There is even colour on it and I that’s that Springhill. So that’s where still have it. they use to live there. They moved Charles: I have a basket that Noel up to here. I don’t know, I may have Francis made. That’s old, round. I writing, what Veronica wrote since even repaired some of it. I have it this reserve started. down the shop [behind his home]. Alice: When did this start, this reserve? I’m keeping it, it’s a memory. Charles: Well, this is one thing that Alice: Somebody wanted my basket. I’m—must been about 1611. And I loaned it out to my sister one Alice: Really? time, when she had her baby. Because Charles: Yes, because I could remember I used it myself, for my three kids Jesuit Priests, when they talked about when they were babies. So when I Jesuit Priests. Father Baird, I think got it back, it was damaged a little was the one that use to stay with bit. And I said no one is ever going to Indians. And they wanted to find out get it again, and nobody has. So I just just how they lived. Wintertime, use it for clothes. that’s how they were able to (pause) Charles: The same way, I made one They had to live with the Indians in down Old Town. I made a clothes order to survive the winter months. basket or baby basket, with a hood What they do—and this is one thing on it. that was important, because Indians Alice: Oh really, I’ve seen them. always know just what to look out Charles: I put rockers on that. And that for. I had to laugh when I was down man, offered him five hundred Willimantic [Connecticut]. When dollars. And he wouldn’t take it. He Billy and Butch was in the scouts. said, no way. Tony, that’s my brother-in-law, and Alice: Evangeline use to make them him and boy. And there was five of little ones. I remember her making them Indian boys, that were in the them little cradles. It had the hood on scouting. And this doctor that was it and the rockers on the bottom. She living right there, he always tried to made pretty baskets for dolls, they out guess me, as scouting was con- were beautiful. cerned. I was even telling him, I’ve Charles: I made one basket for a girl got more that you’ll ever know. And I down here. I even put a hood on it. told him that scouting came from us. But I should make one (pause) I said, how can you tell me anything Alice: You should have one for yourself. (pause) you know. And I said, Powell Charles: Yes. was the one that wrote about scout- END OF TAPE TWO SIDE ONE ing. He was smart enough when he TAPE TWO SIDE TWO stayed with the Indians. And they Charles: My mother and father was a went back to England and was able good story teller. All different places. to write about the scouting, about Just like he use to talk about, quite a how everything came from us. That’s

113 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

how we lived and he wrote it all paddle right inside his canoe and down and passed it on to the scouts. start walking to shore. Right at the Everything that they are doing, right end of the film they asked a question this very day, you know. And differ- about it after. Did you see anything ent ways that I made him look, as if that was unsafe, what this man had he didn’t know nothing. First of all, done? Nobody didn’t see nothing, we had to help the boys make their everything was perfect. I put my own sled. There was five of them, hand up and I told them I saw some- they had to stay out in the coldest thing that wasn’t safe. Then they part of the winter. That was in Que- asked me what was it. And I said, bec, I mean Connecticut and it you would have noticed, when he snowed. Now, I was telling the boys, was coming in to shore, that he put when you set up a tent. And I said, his paddle inside his canoe. And I be sure and bank snow right around said, with us, we have our paddle to the tent, so the wind will not get guide us to walk to shore, so as to not under. And I said, you’ll be nice and fall into the water. So they turned the warm, they had sleeping bags. And film back. No, there was about four another thing I said, be sure and hundred scouts and none of them gather your wood and put it inside. could see this, you know. And when And I said, generally during the they turned it back, they saw this night, sometimes we get snow. And man coming in, the warden, and your wood is going to be all wet. that’s what he done put the paddle You’ll have a hard time building a inside the canoe. This is one thing fire in the morning. I said, another that they didn’t see it. And another thing is birch bark, get a lot of birch leader there, he said, well, it takes an bark and dry twigs, like fir and Indian to know, to see all the mis- spruce. I said, these are nice and dry takes, as far as the canoe is con- and these are the ones that you can cerned. start fire with. Once you are able to Alice: Did they ever ask you who do that, then you cut up your wood taught you all this stuff? and then you’re all set. So, this doctor Charles: Yes. Well, they asked me and I (pause) we had to help make their said my father and grandfather, my own sleds and our sled didn’t break, father and my grandfather was but the other did. And that doctor always telling us different things. even said, just because you’re father Alice: From generation to generation? is a carpenter, you know, he knows Charles: Well, yes. We were living in the all about, as far as sleds are con- woods, you know. And even when cerned. Another thing was when they they made their homes out of logs, had a movie on, as far as safety was there again, just like a log cabin. concerned. And there again, I got a What they use to use in between. But head of them, as far as safety is they had nothing, you know, to work concerned. They showed a movie, so with. But they had a lot of natural, this man, a warden, coming in the like moss. What they use to use to shore. And what he do, he put his chink between poles. With that, the

114 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

wind will not blow in. So these are Even when the fire burns down, the the things that was important. Then stones that you put around that fire they lived right on the Mother Earth. place is still hot. But there’s always They made beds, everything, on the somebody that would wake up and Mother Earth. That’s for as the first put some more wood in the fire. house that you made, made out of Alice: So it never burns out? bark, wigwam. There again, was on Charles: No. This is one thing that they Mother Earth. But in the centre part always had there, fire. And then they of that, they dug up Mother Earth. were asking me about that fire, as far Then they put stones on the bottom, as that’s concerned. And I said, well, put stones all the way around. That’s with an Indian when they build a where they build their fire. And this fire, it’s just a small fire. And I said, is why they always have an opening you can step right over your fire and on the very top, so smoke will es- you can warm yourself all over. And cape, but the heat will still stay. I said, white man’s fire is big as this Alice: Is there an Indian word for ceil- [huge]. You have to stand way back ing? and freeze your back and you’re Charles: Ewepikan (ceiling), that’s all cooking in the front. So, they got a you can call it. big kick out of that, you know. So Alice: What about floor? these are the things that our people Charles: Pemsokhasik (floor), that’s it, used a lot, was nature you know. yes. So these are the things that was Everything is looked at. important, because right on the Alice: Did they ever make a fire like this Mother Earth. When they made their [with sticks], without a match? bed, they get long poles and then Charles: Yes. We made one, we had to they made bunk bed. Enough for two give fire to the scouts. We got a pole, people, as wide as this [about size of a long pole. And then everyone of the table]. The reason why they have them had a rope on there. Then some two, because their bodies are nice of them would go around them and warm, to keep warm from one [around the pole], like this. Then we another. And then, take years ago, have it like a hexagon and come to a when they had no blankets. But they point and put it on another cedar. had a lot of buckskin and moosehide And on that cedar, you put your bark and deerhide, you know. And they and twigs. By working the friction tanned them. When they tanned from that, you start a fire. What I’m them, just like a cloth, after they get going to do is, I’m going to be mak- all done with them. Then by putting ing one and use like a bow and do one on the bottom (pause) Then the same thing. I’ll make one, so I’ll another thing, when they get their have it to show. This is something own poles, they get cedar, they fill all that somebody wanted, just wanted them poles with cedar and just like a to know if we could start a fire. mattress. Then they put hide on the Alice: Well, by watching TV, I guess you bottom, then just cover over. Then see the stick and the scouts trying to they always had a fire going inside. start a fire.

115 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Charles: Yes. What they have, what you about this place? You know. And just have to do, you have to have a piece because they have it in writing, all and put a hole then. This one here, about Kineo and they know the have your cedar here, you take the history, and that’s what they’re centre out. Then you take a bowl, wondering about. But Noel, he was wrap it around the piece that’s stand- brought up right there and he done ing up. And you have this one on the guiding. And his father was the one very top, you just make a shoulder. that was the main guide on that lake. See, when you start using, it’s just So this all fitted in, like a book, and like a bow, one they use for shooting. he spoke about when he use to guide. You have a string and wrap it around He was only just a young fellow, this. Put it over on this side and you twelve or fourteen years old, he work that, then you’re fire will start. started guiding. Well, it was handed I’ll make one so I’ll be able to show down. some people this summer. It’s nice to Alice: Yes. know. Charles: That’s the reason why we hand Alice: Yes, I’ve often wondered. it down, everything we know, to our Charles: Yes, this is one thing that they children. And that woman she was use to use. And then once they got surprised, because they know I came the fire going, they kept it going. from Canada. You know, what does Then as far as flint was concerned, he know about this place? This is there again, they use to go to where I listened to Gerri’s mother, Moosehead Lake, Rockwood, Mount she was brought up, up there too. Kineo. That’s where they use to get She use to tell us all about their flint, from there to bring here. Moosehead Lake. She use to fish, Alice: So how far, where is that? they use to fish everyday, Gerri’s Charles: Well, you know, Greenville, mother and father. That’s what they over Maine. Moosehead Lake, that’s lived on, fish. That’s the reason why I where Gerri use to live. There again, say these are the things that we do, as there is rocks that they used. I have far as Indians are concerned, they are some rock that came from there. We never stuck. You tell all the white went and gave a talk there three people all of that, they think you’re years ago. And even Gerri’s brother, talking through your hat, but it’s all was still alive, Noel. And he was the facts. I had to laugh when I was one that, he could really play, violin, working on the railroad. This young mouth organ, and he was old. We man goes to the University of Maine, went up, quite a ways up. But we then he was asking all kinds of didn’t go all the way up to the top, questions. And I told him, and I was just as far as the trucks could go. And even telling him, if they put us in the we gave a talk there [Mount Kineo]. woods. And I said, you would starve, Put on a dance, quite a few of us because you haven’t got your book. went there. So it was really nice to be And I said, you put me out there and able to take part in that. Even this, a I could make a living and I could woman asked, what do you know make my home. I said, I was brought

116 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

up and I was taught the hard way. Then one day she looked—we didn’t These are the things we have to do. have a refrigerator—and she looked And that fellow’s eyes were that big, in the cupboard, there was nothing. he didn’t know what to think. He My father went out in the woods, said, you know, that is true. What my going after wood, when he came grandparents had told me (pause) back around dinner time. And my My grandmother, she was another mother happened to look in the one. My mother, she worked hard. cupboard, that was before dinner, And everyone of us. Well you take a found a roast, this big. And she was large family, they helped one another. wondering where it came from. She Our family was so close together. fixed it up, put it in the oven with You’re older brothers and sisters potatoes, carrots, whatever. After it helped the younger ones. got all done my father came, came for Alice: It isn’t like that today. dinner. And he always blessed him- Charles: Well, this is where, when you self, you know, and says pray. And don’t have money. Money, money, he said, where did you get the meat? money, it’s all that people think My mother said, I though you got it. about. Our family is pretty close. No. And you know, my mother Alice: When you try to help someone thought about that man that told her out, don’t expect anything in return. that you’ll never be hungry. Great big Charles: Well, this is it. My mother roast. And there again, from there, always helped anyone that was my father was making all kinds of travelling. And she was even saying, baskets. And he was able to go sell she said, you don’t know when your the baskets, bring a lot of food. Take going to feed our Lord. And that’s years ago, everything was so scarce, just what happened, when the rail- food, you know. And everything that road was down the hill. And there you do was so important. Just like was an old man who came to the Joe and I. I could remember we were house, he even had a staff [cane]. A working for a farmer across the river, knock came on the door and one of we only got a twenty-five cents a day. my sisters, Mary Madeline went to That’s right from morning to late at the door and opened the door. She night. That was haying time. They told my mother there was a man out gave us food and my father was so here and he wants something to eat. happy, because we are able to put Come in. So when he came in, my food on the table. And that’s why he mother said, we ain’t got too much. was saying, he said, we don’t have We always had tea on the stove. We no money, our Lord looked after us. always had homemade bread and my And he was a good Catholic. And mother always had a lot of preserves. this was one thing, he was strict, as And that man said, oh, that’s great. far as our religion was concerned. Butter, homemade bread. And after Alice: Was everybody Catholic, all the he got all done, he told my mother, Indians? he said, you’ll never go hungry. And Charles: Yes. there was twelve of us in our family. Alice: Some of them turn their religion?

117 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Charles: I don’t know, I don’t know think, because as far as our religion is what happened, this is where I am concerned, it’s so powerful. Lots of puzzled. I was just thinking about times we say a prayer and our Lord Nelson, when he was living up here. don’t hear us. And that’s where them Bahi'i, they Alice: But that’s not so. use to come here and they tried Charles: Lot’s of time our Lord gives everything to try to get our people to you time. join them. So Nelson was just about Alice: We just can’t have anything just ready to turn, but he came here and like that, just because we ask. talked to us, Gerri and I. Gerri told Charles: Well, this is it. him, how can you do good with Alice: It happens later, not instantly. I another religion, when you can’t on can’t see anything like that happen- your own. And Nelson, and I was ing. telling him, you’ll see a sign. Two Charles: Well, there again, when I was days later, he was sitting reading a working on the railroad. I came out Bible. And there was a serpent that of service, in the army. About twenty came, it was ugly. Its head was big, years and I was working on the like a pig’s nose and he had wings railroad then. And I lost my balance, like a bat. His tongue was like this, on account of my ear. I’m totally deaf and he just had three fingers on each in my right ear. It never bothered me hand. His finger nails, it was licking until about twenty years, after I was them, they were all bloody. You working, my feet wouldn’t hold me know that kind of scared him. Then up. after that, he went back to church. [Not enough tape to complete the Everything was all there, just to give story]. you a sign. It makes you stop and

118 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

7. Big catch

ROSE ATWIN PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION

When they got big game or big catch, they celebrated. Like the time they first started catching salmon, that spring. You talk about people coming.

When my grandfather moved from Quebec, all his family were on dog sleds. And his mother had a baby along the way and he even had to help deliver that baby. They say he even got under the blankets and helped my grandmother. They travelled from Quebec all the way on foot. And when they got here some stayed and some went on. Every now and then they would run into each other. They were living all over the place.

Alice: Are you originally from the name they gave it, that’s a side of Kingsclear? a hill. Rose: I was born and brought up in Alice: What did they do there? Oromocto. Rose: That’s where Indians use to live, Alice: Do you know anything about up there. Jemseg? Alice: Where is that at? Rose: Yes. Rose: Pemotonek, that’s on this side of Alice: Could you tell me a little about Saint John. Another place would be Jemseg? . Indians use to go there Rose: There was a lot of people camp- too, a long time ago. My grandfather ing along the rivers from here to use to tell us that, that’s where a lot Saint John and all the way to of his people were, and they went as Blissfield, Chipman, Jemseg, Grand far as Saint John. Lake. I remember a lot of them camp- Alice: Who is your grandfather? ing on the shores. Rose: Solomon Paul. Alice: Do you know some of the Indian Alice: Was he from Oromocto also? names to some of these places? Is Rose: No, he was from here. Actually, there an Indian Point? he was farther up river, he was from Rose: They have some places, but I Quebec. My grandfather’s mother don’t know. was an Indian woman and his father Alice: Brown’s Flat? was half French. So where they come Rose: Pemotonek ( side of a hill). That’s from in Quebec—even Paul use to

119 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

tell my mother, don’t ever ask me to my father, he wasn’t down there all go and look for our roots. He said, the time. He died when we were we could be off of the reserve in no young. There was a lot of Indians time. down that way though. Mostly from Alice: Do you know anything about the Gagetown, Oromocto and Devon. Jemseg area? Was it just a place Not too much from up this way. where Indians just went and did their Alice: What year was that? basket making? Rose: When I left Oromocto I was Rose: Oh yes, there use to be a lot of eighteen or nineteen years old. Indians down there. There use to be Alice: That’s a long time ago. people from Gagetown, just to see Rose: Yes. It was forty-eight years ago. the Indians working around them Alice: Did they pick fiddleheads down places, all the way down along the that way also? shores. That’s where they camped all Rose: All over the place. It’s amazing to the time. I remember when we were see the life now, from then. Money is in Sheffield, right before that so easy to come by now. Where was it Wasson’s store use to be. My father all that time? Depression time was use to work there and my uncle something else. You look at TV now Suwahsin. They use to hay, make and you see that World Vision, that hoops and baskets. I remember Molly reminds me of us when we were Louise, my little sister, she was a little kids. It was so bad once in a while, if older than I am. They were working we were lucky enough the Indian and we wandered off. There was Agent would bring us something to something like quick sand, but there eat. Food or clothing or whatever. was sawdust. Just like, well, it was Alice: Didn’t they trade their baskets for like rubber. And my father said, get food? away from there, you’re going to sink Rose: They had to, yes. Fishing and or fall in there [said in Maliseet]. hunting. Money was not easy to Louise and I walked up and she said, come by, but they made their ways of we’re lost. This is Kingsclear don’t be getting food from their work. afraid. It was just like a dream when I Alice: What about canoe making, did think about it and that was about anyone make canoes back then? Birch sixty years ago. bark? Alice: Did your father or your grandfa- Rose: Yes. ther ever tell you about red ochre and Alice: Who made them? what it was used for? Rose: There was some old fellows that Rose: It was used for ceremonies. made them, one from Gagetown. Jim Alice: What kind of ceremonies? Buri- Nash knew how to make them, I als? guess. My grandfather, he was one of Rose: Yes, like if there was any wed- them, he could make canoes. But dings, they would use that. making baskets was the big thing for Alice: How did they use it? him. Making ax handles and every- Rose: I don’t know, but I heard about it. thing else. And he was so good at his I never got into it too much, because work, he was a regular basket maker.

120 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Everyday, all except for Sundays. He moon. And we asked the teacher, worked half days on Saturday and how long that’s going to be. She said Sunday, all day off. in the 80’s. I didn’t think I was going Alice: I’ve heard that before, that people to see eighty. And I think it was would work all week long. But on earlier than 80’s, when that man Sundays, no one did anything. landed on the moon. But it must have Rose: In the morning they start working meant in the 1980’s, not eighty years. at nine am. and they worked until I’ve seen so much happening, from five pm. And after five o’clock, you what I heard when I was a kid. It was wouldn’t even lift a dish cloth to just like a dream, like a plan. You’ve wipe a cup or you wouldn’t even got everything planned out for the grab a broom to sweep the floor. future, but you got to wait until you That’s how the rules were when I get there in order to see it. That’s was growing up. what—it was getting different all the Alice: Do you remember anything time. about moose hide? If they had used it Alice: How was life like being in for anything? Gagetown, Oromocto, or any place Rose: They did, but they sold it. down that area for you? Was it hard Alice: They didn’t use it for putting growing up? canoes together like when they made Rose: I didn’t think it was that hard, birch bark to sew them up or any- when I was staying with my grandfa- thing? ther. When my mother and my father Rose: They did that. died, I stayed with my grandparents Alice: Spruce fir, bark or pitch, when after. I went to school, but there was they made these canoes, did they use a lot of work, a lot of work. We had this pitch to patch and then sew up to help him clean fish, set up a place with moose (pause) to do his net, and help my grand- Rose: Yeah, I seen that up in Montreal mother. And everyone had time for too, at Kanahwake, when I went to fun, but there was nobody drinking visit. There was a place where they like it is today. There was no drugs, made canoes exactly how they did it there was nothing like that. When I in Oromocto. There was no nails on got married, it was celebrated for the canoes, when they made them, three to four days. And Everett, he and the same as the snowshoes. We played the violin for the wedding. I use to make money on them, making was dancing and he was playing. moccasins. You know, the way the Alice: And you just got married? kids were dressed in them days, you Rose: Yes. wouldn’t dress a child like that today, Alice: Did the Indians all get along? but they were warm. I’ll tell you the Rose: They got along, yes. way things are, it’s so (pause) I heard Alice: They were happy? something a long time ago. When I Rose: Yes. When they got big game or was in school, the teacher said that big catch, they celebrated. Like the someday, there’s going to be a plane time they first started catching that’s going to take a man to the salmon, that spring. You talk about

121 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 7.1: Everette Atwin (husband of Rosie Polchies, Kingsclear), Louise Atwin, and Everette's brother John; Everette learned fiddle playing from Joe Paul of Oromocto (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1905).

people coming. Rose: Once, when they had the Alice: How did they catch the salmon? fiddlehead festival. Rose: My grandfather caught them with Alice: They had a nice one there. a net. Rose: That’s the only time I’ve ever Alice: Do you remember anyone spear- been there. ing fish? Alice: What about Snowshoe Island, I Rose: Not that I know of. They might know they’re under water now, but? have done it somewhere else, but I Rose: I could remember when we use to only remember what my grandfather pick fiddleheads like they use to. It’s did. He was fishing, but he used a pathetic today about the fiddleheads. net. The way we used to pick them, we Alice: Were you ever on Savage Island used to make good money. I have to when you were younger? Were you laugh at the white people, when they ever on that island? get fiddleheads, they are greedy [said

122 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

in Maliseet]. At Sobeys, they charge Rose: Yes, Oromocto Pete. That was my three dollars and something and at dad’s brother. And they use to work Fredericton Superstore they are one together and they use to make Bees dollar and forty-nine cents. Beer. Alice: Some are more expensive than Alice: I remember that. others. Do you know anything about Rose: Just about everybody had that in Oromocto Pete? Oromocto. But you would never see Rose: That was my uncle. anybody drunk, or half killing some- Alice: Could you tell me a little about body. him? Alice: So, the people in Oromocto, did Rose: He and my father use to pick they do any of these things, hunting, fiddleheads and make baskets. All fishing; like the one’s that are there you’d hear when they made baskets today? was the spitting, because they Rose: There might be some today that chewed tobacco. are doing that, but not too darn many Alice: Why did they call him Oromocto times. He use to do all of that. Pete? Alice: I spoke to Timer one day, when I Rose: Because there was two Petes, was down to Oromocto. And I asked Oromocto Pete and White Pete. him if he would speak with me. And Alice: White Pete would be the one I thought I could get some stories from Woodstock? Is he originally from him, but he said no, because it from Oromocto or from Kingsclear? brings back too many memories for Rose: From Oromocto. him. Alice: Oromocto Pete. Rose: Well, it’s been rough for him. I Rose: Yes. Billy’s father, Joe Polchies, could remember, because his mother my uncle and Frank Atwin’s mother and father had it rough when he was Mae, John Coon’s mother Sadie growing up. They use to fight a lot in Sacobie, they are all brother and Oromocto. Nothing but big trouble sisters. And I have a little cousin, all the time. I don’t know why they she’s taller than me. She is my second had to fight like that all the time. cousin, Stephanie from Woodstock. I People worked hard when they was telling her not too long ago, do worked together, and they got along. you know what Stephanie, I said, do It’s not only when the drinking starts you realize that you’re my second that they fight. When Everett and I cousin. She said, how is that. I said, got married, he use to trap muskrat well, your grandfather and my and mink. He use to help his father. daddy were brothers. She said, what Alice: Who was his father? was his name. I said, Mitchell Rose: Peter Atwin. That’s Clarence’s Polchies. And I said, Uncle Pete was father too. Everett and Clarence your grandfather, right. She said, [Timer] are brothers. And when they yeah. hunted and trapped together, picking Alice: Uncle Pete (pause) fiddleheads, fishing, first thing I Rose: That was our uncle. know, they would get into a brawl Alice: Oromocto Pete? and Everett would come home.

123 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Everett went into the army. And he was going to use, what colours. went twice, Second World war and There is all different colours here, the Korean war. colour them, all different sizes. And Alice: When you moved up here to now when you make baskets, you Kingsclear from Oromocto, how was can design them anyway you want it like here? Was there any hunting, and any colours. fishing, fiddleheading going on, Alice: Where did the colours come basket making? from? What did you use for colour? Rose: There was quite a bit going on Rose: Well, that time she was buying it when we got here, but it diminished from the stores. But years ago when right down to nothing. Indians use to make baskets, they use Alice: We are losing our culture and our to use berries for colour. language. And it’s a shame that we Alice: Did they ever use onion skins for are. yellow colour? Rose: That time, when my mother died. Rose: I don’t know, they might have. Debbie’s mother from Kanahwake, But I know that red alder, it’s orange she wanted baskets. My mother said, colour, they use to use that too. And Rosie, I’m going to have to stop that’s medicine on top of that. making baskets. She said I was to Alice: Do you know about medicine? finish making them baskets. And I Rose: You steep that like tea [red alder], said, why mom? She said, I think I let it boil for a little while. It’s good had enough, I done enough. She said, for the runs. And then calamus roots I’ll tell you what, you finish them on top of that, you can use that for and I’ll show you. And I said, how anything. Calamus root is something could I finish them. And she said, like aspirin. It has something in it, you’re going to do it. She said, with you can take it for anything. But my supervision you’ll make it. She years ago, Indians they even used said, come with me in my bedroom, I tobacco for, if anybody had a bad cut. have to go lay down. She had Chewing tobacco. They wash it off sweetgrass that she had washed and with tobacco juice and it keeps that sorted. That smell from the cut clean, so there would be no sweetgrass was so strong, that it infection setting in. They use to treat made her dizzy. I don’t know what the people when they ran high fe- was in the fumes from the vers. They use to say that when they sweetgrass, but it sure made her sick. put raw fish on the bottom of ones My mother said, Nelson and feet, that it sucks all the fever from Clarence, they have to come and get the body. When that fish is cooked, their sweetgrass, because I can’t then you are all better. handle this. And I said, Mom you’re Alice: I haven’t heard that before. going to have to stop right now. She Rose: Honest. My mother, in Oromocto said, I’m going to stop all together. So at that time, when she was down we went into the bedroom, and she Willard’s. She told Willard, you know showed me what kind of baskets. something, I could make a hundred The splints. She showed me what I dollars a day if I wanted to. And he

124 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

said, where Auntie? My mother said, Alice: Who was it that came from right around your yard. Where Fredericton? Willard and Cecilia were living, they Rose: Professor Szabo. That’s the one had bushes around their house. And that wanted to know about Indian my mother said, you just watch me, I medicine. My mother was telling have someone coming from stories to him too. Fredericton. I got to pick out some Alice: What kind of stories? stuff for him, he is going to name Rose: Everything, all the Indian stories, them and tell what it is. She got a legends. hundred dollars just picking herbs, Alice: Do you know any legends? all that day, from the ground. Willard Rose: When my grandfather moved just looked at my mother and he said, from Quebec, all his family were on Auntie I didn’t know that I was dog sleds. And his mother had a living around the money. baby along the way and he even had

Plate 7.2: Rose's mother, Margaret Polchies, and Rose's daughter, Darlene Atwin, 1970; Margaret was an interviewee for Lazlo Szabo and Vincent Erickson (University of New Brunswick Archives, 74-17380).

125 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

to help deliver that baby. They say he woman was cooking something and even got under the blankets and she was using a shovel. Frying fish or helped my grandmother. They trav- meat, or they cooked right in the fire. elled from Quebec all the way on They said there was so many times foot. And when they got here some they went to these places. My grand- stayed and some went on. Every now mother was so young when she got and then they would run into each married and she learned a lot from other. They were living all over the my grandfather. And my grandfather place. They use to live in McAdam, just watched her until she was old that’s where my mother was born. enough, then she had a baby. They Alice: Do you know anything about St. got married when she was young. Croix and Canoose? Alice: People that got married along Rose: No. time ago, were they arranged? Alice: Do you know anything about Rose: Not with me, but Molly-dell did. Brother’s Island in Saint John? Alice: Can you tell me about that? Rose: No. Rose: Molly-dell, a long time ago. When Alice: Brown’s Flat? Jack’s wife died, they had four kids. Rose: I know that they use to live in Jack and Nastas, Jack’s first wife, Brown’s Flat. A lot of Indians, even when she died, she left Royden, the ones from Woodstock, because Annie, Molly, Ambrose. Jack went there was a lot of them. I use to hear and told my grandfather, he said, do about, Oak Point, Brown’s Flat and you think I could marry one of your all them other places. I use to hear grand daughters. My grandfather my grandfather, he use to go there said, why don’t you ask the father, and make baskets. Indians use to be ask her father. Jack went up to see the able to pitch a tent anywhere. Priest, my grandfather meant for him END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE to go and see her father, not the TAPE ONE SIDE TWO Priest. He came to see my father too. Rose: They could go anywhere. When Father told him, I don’t know, you they go picking fiddleheads or cut- will have to ask two or three different ting ash, they would stay right there, people before I let her get married, camping. And they use to camp all because she wasn’t old enough. She through the summer and some places was only sixteen or seventeen, when they lived through the winter too. Molly-dell got married and she was Alice: Like where? going to have a baby already. Rose: Up in Bear Island. My grandfa- Alice: And how old was Jack? ther and grandmother—so they Rose: He was in his twenty’s or thirty’s. say—they were invited up there for He already had a wife and four kids. Christmas at one time. I don’t know And Molly-dell, the Priest came who was all living there, but they down and told my mother. He said, went for Christmas. The kids were all Margaret, you better let Mary marry dressed in fur clothes, from buck- John, because there is a sure sign that skins. And they were living in a tent. she would be a good mother for them And my grandmother said that kids. I guess, good mother, baby after

126 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

baby, twins. way, by the church. Alice: How many kids all together? Alice: How many families were there? Rose: My sister, she had—three died— Rose: About seven or eight families. she had about eight or nine children. When we came up from Oromocto. A Alice: From Jack? lot of them were on that side, older Rose: Yes. part of the reserve. Alice: This was after she married him? Alice: Where is Eqpahak? Rose: Yes. That was something else, Rose: I don’t know. when she got married, Molly-dell, Alice: Or what does it mean? that woman never complained about Rose: It’s a flood, that sounds familiar. nothing. She was so poor, but she Alice: Is it up Springhill area, or is it a was always so happy. And there was piece of land? Where Indians use to women that come and asked her, dwell? why was she always so happy, you’re Rose: It sounds familiar. When Jack use so poor. They’d say they wish they to work in Portabello, I use to hear could be so happy. They’d eat good, that. Molly-dell, she use to travel but for Molly-dell, she would have to around with Jack quite a bit, if they ask for food. So Molly-dell says, if worked over Maine picking potatoes. you got so much food, bring it to me And when they use to work in and I’ll show you how to eat. The Burton or Gagetown. Or when they women were jealous of her, because use to camp all over them places, she had so many children. She has right up until 1948, when a lot of Ambrose and Annie, no, Royden and people moved from Oromocto. Annie are the only two that are living Alice: Were they forced to move up from Jack’s first wife and two died. here? Molly-dell, her children are still alive. Rose: They said they had a nice place Me, I had to beg my mother to let me for us around here, than what we had get married. I had to, I guess I was in Oromocto. too young to know. But I was think- Alice: Who said this? ing about something, I was after Rose: The Indian Agent. something. I wanted to get married Alice: Did they make promises to and have lots of kids. I thought I was Indians? going to do what my sister did, but I Rose: They made all kinds of promises. was lucky to have two kids. What Alice: Like. would I do with a dozen? I guess the Rose: Each and everyone of us. Everett future for me, I was going to live a and I, we had our place. There was a life alone. I’ve been alone since 1964, lot of people that had homes. There well, even before that. In 1956 or was no electricity, no plumbing. It 1957, I was all alone and when was no better than this place, when Everett died, we were separated for we moved up here. We were situated six years. in better housing when we were Alice: Was there a reserve here already, living in Oromocto, than when we when you moved here? moved up here. People were living in Rose: It was a small reserve, just up that houses that were built by old lumber,

127 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

that they got from the old army camp I couldn’t hold the picture very long, in Ripples. When they tear down Edie was showing it. And I wanted to those old army camps and they see it again, but I never got to see it brought them up here for houses for again. I told Fred, where is that people. The windows were big and Molly-dell and Neil. And Neil was them houses were full of bed bugs. only about twelve or thirteen, they And Whalen said everybody will were all dressed in Indian. My grand- have cows and sheep and pigs and father—he was Chief—Uncle Law- chickens. rence, Uncle Joseph, Jack, Jack’s Alice: Did anyone ever get any of that brother, Andy. All of them, they were stuff? all dressed in costume. We use to Rose: Maybe a goat. have that in Oromocto, like on Janu- Alice: So, when did welfare come out? ary 6th, the Epiphany. We use to have Or how much did you get when you that ‘Old Christmas’. All the Kings, started receiving welfare? they had a big gathering. People, Rose: When we were living in they would have to pick the King Oromocto, my mother and father and the Queen by cake. You had to never got much welfare. Maybe make them cake. They’d make fifteen or twenty dollars a month. crowns and everything to get every- Alice: How many children was there to body ready and they set up a place. feed? And there would be so many people Rose: There was four or five of us. After and they would party, like, for two or Molly-dell got married, there was three days. They use to have violin me, Neil, Pat, Ritchie and my mother players, guitars. Joe Shaker, and my and my father. When my father died, uncle Joseph, Levi Sabattis. Joe we had to move because we weren’t Shaker was playing the guitar and getting enough help. It’s a good thing honest to God, they had their own my mother had some helping ways band on the reserve. I have never to work with her grandfather making seen such a get-together. baskets, knitting, sewing. They use to Alice: Do you remember when they had make Indian costumes. Like, when square dances in homes? there was a parade and anything Rose: Yeah. In Oromocto, when we use goes on, they had to dress in their to have different places, where we costume. use to dance for a wedding. Stella Alice: That must have been pretty. and John Coon when they got mar- Rose: Yes, that time when the Queen ried. Me and Annie—I was about ten came to Fredericton—it was that year or eleven—we were baby-sitting that Pat was born—that was 1939. Jimmy Sark and Jerry, when they had They were even showing pictures on a big dance in Oromocto. Molly and TV, they brought them to the bingo Annabell and Babe, she was involved one night. They had old pictures with them all the time. Babe would from 1939, taken in Fredericton. My start something to get everyone grandfather, my grandmother were going, making head dresses, making in that, my mother and my sister. But crowns, making robes. Those women

128 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 7.3: Theresa Gabriel (left) with Rosie Atwin (right) (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1903).

in those days knew how to make clothes, they were warm and they everything. No one had a sewing were good clothes. Like flannel and machine. And my mother use to cotton, make dresses out of printed make clothes for us too. And she use cloth. to make clothes for everyone down Alice: Did any of the women down in there. When anyone wanted a skirt or Oromocto, did they ever work out- a sweater, she could knit and sew side of the reserve for anyone? Like and she would make moccasins too. house cleaning? Alice: Like, the clothing back then, Rose: Oh yeah. That’s where my mother when they were made for you, and caught cold in her knee. She worked what you have today, they are a lot wenuhcikwamihkuk(white peoples different, aren’t they? homes) in Oromocto. And arthritis Rose: It was all cotton and wool in them set in her knee and her knee was bent days. Nothing fancy about that. The and it never straightened until 1964.

129 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 7.4: The 1939 royal visit to Fredericton by King George and Queen Mary (University of New Brunswick Archives, 6-16).

All them years, she was about twelve up on a hill. And all of a sudden I or thirteen when she started working saw this coil thing, it was a snake out. looking at me. I fell backwards and Alice: Who did she work for down never went back. there? Alice: The material for your clothing, Rose: All over the place in Oromocto. where did it come from? Was it Just like me, I use to go to every bought? house. Especially before Christmas, I Rose: Yes. was trying to get some money to buy Alice: Was it cheap? this and that. Or in the springtime, Rose: It was a bit cheaper. Well my we would go to work over in mother use to make our dresses and Maugerville, weeding, thinning out. make boys clothes too. They use to We use to pick vegetables, berries. give her army clothes or mountie You know where we use to pick clothes and what the Indian Agent berries, I wouldn’t want to go there would bring to the reserve. And there now. were some men’s pants, fixed them Alice: Why? and make nice dress pants. And we Rose: It’s all grown up with woods get some boys that need pants and now. I use to go pick strawberries she would use them and cut them down by the old railway tracks, up. She made a suit for Neil, at that down below Oromocto. I was picking time when he made his confirmation strawberries there and I was laying And when I had my confirmation,

130 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

my mother made my dress. I remem- parents had a farm. There was a ber that. whole bunch of apple trees there. Alice: What about food? What kind of When we first left Oromocto, there food did you eat back then? was still apple trees there. There was Rose: Them days isn’t very fancy either, so many berries, every time I go on you never heard tell of cookies. We the field, I would come back with a never bought any pies or anything bowl full. Blueberries, raspberries, like that. Canned stuff. Like, what we strawberries. grow in a garden, like vegetables, all Alice: Did they ever use blueberries for vegetables or any vegetables that you dye? could think of. And mostly meat, you Rose: Yes, blueberries, strawberries and didn’t have to buy that. Milk and raspberries. eggs. Sometimes there would be Alice: What about cherries? Did they someone who had chickens on the use those also? reserve. Rose: They used them. They made Alice: And back then, you didn’t have jellies. any fridges right? Alice: Did they use them for colouring? Rose: No. Rose: Yes. Alice: How did the meat keep? How Alice: Cherries? was it stored? Rose: Yeah. Cranberries. There was a lot Rose: It was dried or pickled. Just like they used for colouring. fish. Alice: That’s amazing, you don’t see Alice: Deer meat, moose meat? anyone using them today. Rose: Yes. Rose: Just like this purple pencil they Alice: How long did it keep? use to have it. Some kind of lead Rose: Over the winter. pencil, when it gets wet, it turns Alice: What about come springtime? purple. My mother and grandmother, Rose: Well, by that time it could be all when they were making baskets, my gone. There was nothing fancy, if you grandfather would bring dye and could make your pies and cakes there was a bottle of red ocher in you’re all right. Because them days there. And my grandmother said, I (pause) can’t use that with baskets. Put that Alice: What about Indian bread or aside, she said, and put it away. I just lakuci[sliced potatoes, boiled in water want dye for my ash. And he made with salt pork]? the dyes, purple. And she mixed Rose: Indians made all that. Corn, colours with everything. She made beans. And they use to have chick- her own colours and that purple, my ens, pigs, horses. I know my grandfa- mother always had it, that purple ther, my dad’s father, we had a farm. lead pencil. Oranges, the skins, they Right now where Sapet’s house is were used for colour too. I tell you [Elizabeth Paul] in Oromocto. That’s it’s amazing where the colour comes almost the same spot right where from. And all the herbs and medi- Freddy lives now, that’s where our cine, we use to go in the woods and house was. That’s where my grand- dig for golden roots, gold threads—

131 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

and that’s good for babies, when they ered her again. She said, Rosie, have sores in their mouths. My you’re good that way. I do things mother, one time, she said, Rosie I am sometimes without me realizing going to show you how to help what I am doing. That time I was in people when they are sick. And I Tobique, kids came to play in Rex’s said, Mom, I can help you right now. yard. One of the young fellows—he’s She had sprained her ankle when she a priest now, Curtis—he came there went to church. I didn’t know until and he came with Darlene, Victor she came back, they carried her in. and Leon, Rex’s boy. He had an And I said, what happened to Mama. earache and Darlene asked me if I She said she sprained her ankle could help this young fellow [Curtis]. outside, when she was going out to And I said, I’ll help him. I put him on church. Poor thing, her ankle was so the couch. You sit still there. And I swollen, she was laying down. They going to melt some butter. I put a took her to the hospital and they couple of drops in his ear, then I took gave her something for pain, but her cotton batten and I put a little bit of ankle still bothered her. It was so grease on it from the butter. And I swollen. I went and got oatmeal and put it in his ear and I told him to take I cooked it, just boiled it, then I put it a couple of aspirin, cover yourself in a cloth and I put it on her foot. and go to sleep, you’ll be all right. About ten minutes time, my mother About a half hours time, they were had a smile on her face. And she said, making so much noise from them ktowsihpilahs kil, tus (you are a good playing. Rex said, kikaha (you healer, my daughter). And she said, healed) Curtis. I even mentioned that you have that in your mind to do to him when he came here last sum- that. And I said, yes, and I elevated mer. He said, I remember you from her leg. And the next day she was somewhere. And I said, yes, a long walking around and it never both- time ago at Rex’s.

132 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

8. Kincemossuwin (King Time)

GINA (JEANNA) POLCHIES WOODSTOCK FIRST NATION

I remember. I don’t know what they called it, they called it Kincemossuwin (King time). They would bake a cake and put two corns inside. And whoever got the corn would be the king and the queen. And they would dance with them all the evening. I remember that. And I remember the other part, like some sick man, a sick family. This man can’t look out for getting wood and water for the wife. These people would come and they’d all gathered the food from the neighbourhoods, whatever one could give. And put it in a big basket and they’d go to this man’s house. And they’d chant this, but I could never remember this song. But it went something like, Npeciptun, Nitap (I bring to you, my friend). And they had those rattles from cow horns. And they had little rocks in it. And they would rattle it and they’d dance around. They’d put this basket in the middle of the floor and they’d dance around it and then they’d dance right out.

Alice: Were you born here in meat and salt the fish and smoke Woodstock? them. That’s how it was—and of Gina: No, I was born in Oromocto. course potatoes. And working was the Alice: Who was your mom and dad? same thing, they had a mill there and Gina: Gabe Sacobie and Margaret, they they use to work at the mill. At that called her Moliahkat in Indian. It time, there was very few Indians that would be Margaret Sacobie. Either was hired, for any kind of labour. call her Maggie or Moliahkat and Ole They would hire them for weeding Gab. gardens or hoeing or work at the mill Alice: Could you tell me what it was to pile lumber up. This is what I like for you growing up in Oromocto? remember of them doing. Most of How things were back then. them hunted. Like summertime, when Gina: Well it, well it wasn’t very good. the school closed, they all travelled And I guess that’s the way it was and down to Maugerville, where the I wouldn’t know any different. There farms are. And this is where they was no welfare back then. They would weed and hoe and whatever planted their gardens, they fished and they could. And pick bog-berries and they hunted. And they would fry the sell them and whatever they could

133 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

sell. In that time, there was no money what you would get for your pay, and exchanged, you get paid by food, eggs and stuff like that. So that was bread, potatoes. And the farmers use how it was, what I remember, a little to smoke their own pork, salt their bit of it, you know. pork, ham and whatever. And this is Alice: What kind of activities went on

Plate 8.1:From left; John Sacobie and Gabe Sacobie; Gabe was Gina's father (University of New Brunswick Archives, 74-17370).

134 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

there? prayers at night. I would say about Gina: Well, they had a (pause) I remem- 9:30. And this man, his name was ber the men they use to play quite a Raccoon—his name was Andy, but bit of marbles. Marbles and pennies. they called him Raccoon. He use to And they use to play ball and the ball go up on a hill and he would holler field was right on the reserve. And of like Imiyan (Prayer time). And he course they had canoe races and they would go to another spot and then he made their own, not canoes, but would do the same thing. It echoes skiffs. See they use to have, they and each time it gets longer and travelled by water quite a bit. Like louder. And down over the hill, when they wanted to go to almost by the river, and he would go Fredericton, they get on the boat and there by the railroad track. There use paddle up. to be a railroad track there. And that’s Alice: Oh, really. where he would call again and then Gina: Oh, yes. Or to Gagetown. And a the people all get together and pray, couple of them had the motor boats Imiyan (prayer time). and sometimes you could get a ride to Alice: Where did they get together? go to Fredericton. Gina: Well, where this person is laid Alice: What about ceremonies? out. See, there was no funeral homes Gina: Well, them ceremonies, there’s a then. And that’s how they would be. few that I remember that I was telling They’d get together and cook a meal, you about the other day. About the each one, whatever they had. death, when a person is dying. Alice: What kind of food did they have? There was this old man and his name Gina: Well, they would have beans and was Ole John and I can’t think of his if there is moose, they would have last name. I think he was Sabattis. moose stew and rice and raisins. That And there was a couple of Sabattis was the main (pause) you know, boys, Ahtuwen (Anthony) and Andy. whenever someone dies, that you And they would come and would expect rice and raisin pudding. kahsahtuwenon, that’s what they call And Indian bread of course, the one it in Indian. They light the candle and that cooks in the oven. And that’s hold the candle and they would chant about it, the meal was simple. this Indian prayer. I would imagine, Alice: How long did you live in because I was quite young then, until Oromocto? this person passes away. And they’ll Gina: Until I was about eight or nine sing this hymn or whatever. And it years old. was all done in Indian and not one Alice: Where did you go from there? word of English, and that was it. Gina: I went to St. Mary’s. They called And another thing. After this person Sitansisk then. passes away, see they use to have I stayed with whoever kept me. I stayed

135 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

with Molye (Maria). I stayed with school just a little bit, here and there. Louise and I stayed with Sapiye I left school when I was in grade four. (Xavier). I stayed with my aunt Alice: What were you doing in St. Tuswey and I stayed with Julia, re- Mary’s then? member her? And I can’t remember Gina: I was just around, I guess, wher- his name, but he was a Nash anyway, ever anyone wants to keep me or feed John Casey’s brother. I can’t think of me. When you’re left alone and the his name, I think it was Pihel (Peter) family scatters and the parents died Paul. It was John Casey’s brother (pause) There was so much alcohol- anyway. ism there and I just kept wandering Alice: It might have been him. here and there. Gina: And I stayed with them for a Alice: How long did you stay in St. while and I stayed with Tuahti and Mary’s? Aunt Clara. Gina: Until my sister met the guy up Alice: Did you go to school there? here, Oliver, and we came up to- Gina: I never went to school. I went to gether.

Plate 8.2: Gina's mother Margaret (Moliahkat), daughter of Mike Paul (Kingsclear), wife of Gabe (ole Gabe) Sacobie of Oromocto; with Gina's sister Ruth (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1900).

136 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: Marie was you’re sister, is that a lot of things they had to, because who you are talking about? there was no welfare. Gina: Oh no. Louisa, that would have Wenuhchikuwamkan, which means been Annette’s, Annette Poole, that’s ‘go sell for potatoes, turnips, meat her mother. And Ronnie and and all that. But I could never under- Theodore, those are her kids. And she stand why they never got money for died in 1943, I think, when her hus- it, the baskets. They would go trade, band was over seas, and she died of that was their Indian way. hepatitis. So in those days, they didn’t Alice: It was probably more important know what hepatitis, Wisawiye (turn to trade for food then it was to get yellow) was. You were hardly at- money. tended to by doctors in those days. I Gina: They always traded, I don’t care remember when I was home, it was what it was, they always traded. shortly after my mother died. And I Alice: So how long did you live in St. stayed with my brother there for a Mary’s? while with his wife, Pokan. And they Gina: About three or four years. had a baby. I don’t know what hap- Alice: How did you like it there? pened, I was really young. But I Gina: Like I said, I was quite young, know the baby bled to death, because and Louisa kept me the longest. She the doctor came from Fredericton to was like a second mother to me. And Oromocto, and it was wintertime, so they lived right next to my sister and it took a long, long time. that’s how I came to be staying there. Alice: Who was the doctor? When they took my aunt away, she Gina: Doctor Sterling. By the time the asked them if I could stay there. I doctor came the baby died, because it stayed for about three weeks, after bled to death. they took my aunt to the hospital in Alice: What happened to the mother, Saint John. was she all right? Alice: Would you know anything about Gina: Yeah, she was all right. The Jemseg or any of those places? reason why the baby died it, was from Gina: No, but we use to camp there, but the navel, they didn’t tie the cord I was really too young to remember. tight enough or something. And that’s It was just camping there, Indians in where the bleeding was coming from. the summertime. You would hardly That’s one part and there are a few find anyone at the village. They’d things that I don’t even want to take their canoes, tents and they go remember. along, they’d camp here and there Alice: That’s okay. Do you remember along the river. anybody that made baskets there? Alice: Did you ever go to Savage Island Gina: Oh yes, that’s all they’d do was and those other islands when you make baskets, ax handles. There was were in St. Mary’s?

137 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Gina: No, I didn’t. After I got to St. that’s not so anymore. And they were Mary’s, that’s when the boating friendly, everybody was. I know they stopped. I never went out too much, had their differences, but nothing but down home we did quite a bit, we serious. would go to town with skates. Alice: So, you must have a lot of rela- Alice: Do you remember celebrating tives? Epiphany? It would have been ‘Old Gina: What I know of. Christmas’ down there. Alice: Yes, you had relatives in St. Gina: I remember. I don’t know what Mary’s, well you still do. they called it, they called it Gina: My aunts and uncles and cousins. Kincemossuwin (King time). They Alice: Could you name a few of them? would bake a cake and put two corns Gina: I don’t even know, I left St. inside. And whoever got the corn Mary’s, I was quite young. would be the king and the queen. And Alice: You said Sandy Sacobie was one they would dance with them all the of them. evening. I remember that. And I Gina: Sandy, yes. remember the other part, like some Alice: There’s Sandy, there’s Raymond. sick man, a sick family. This man Gina: I haven’t even seen Raymond. can’t look out for getting wood and The reason why I know Sandy, he water for the wife. These people came to the door. They had a ball would come and they’d all gathered game up here, and he came down the food from the neighbourhood, here. That’s how I came to know whatever one could give. And put it Sandy. in a big basket and they’d go to this Alice: There is Percy, Rita, Dolly. man’s house. And they’d chant this, Gina: I don’t know them at all. Those but I could never remember this song. aren’t my relatives. But it went something like, Alice: They must be, they’re all related Npeciptun, Nitap (I bring to you, my to Sandy. friend). And they had those rattles Gina: Well that’s through the marriage. from cow horns. And they had little Pokan, I think, their half sister. The rocks in it. And they would rattle it man was married twice. Isaac was and they’d dance around. They’d put married twice. This John Casy, this basket in the middle of the floor Josephine, Pokan and the other one, and they’d dance around it and then Pihel. Those are his kids from the they’d dance right out. first marriage. And the next day, maybe a couple of Alice: Okay, I see. men would come and chop wood for Gina: And the second marriage was this man and get some water for the Ruby, Percy and Dolly, Rita, those woman, until that man is well. They were from the second marriage. use to help each other quite a bit, but Alice: So after St. Mary’s, where did

138 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 8.3: A cow horn shaker (photo by Viktoria Kramer).

you go? I married an old man, and if I didn’t I Gina: Woodstock. was going to be sent out of this Alice: You were never in Kingsclear? reserve. Gina: No. Alice: How old was this old man? Alice: When you got married, what year Gina: He was in his thirties and I was in did you get married? my teens. He was a widower then, Gina: I got married in 1937. also he was about thirty-four or Alice: How did you get to be up here? thirty-five. Gina: My sister met Oliver Polchies. Alice: Do you remember anymore of the And she didn’t want to leave me arranged marriages? down there and I didn’t want to come Gina: Well mostly. In those days you up here. So she said if I didn’t come respect your Elders and whatever up, she wouldn’t either. So, Oliver your Elders say, you think that’s right. talked me into coming up here, so I Almost everyone was your grand- came up. So like again, I stayed here mother, because that’s what you call and there. them, Nuhkum (grandmother). I don’t Alice: In your travels, when you were care who it is, if you were related to younger, have you ever heard of them or not you call them Nuhkum marriages being arranged for Indian (grandmother) or Muhsumi (grandfa- people? ther). And if they tell you some thing, Gina: Well, I guess, mine was arranged. like well, Nipuwamon not ntus ( Yes, it was arranged. Well I was marry him, my daughter). He’ll give threatened, if I didn’t marry this man. you a good home or he’ll be good to

139 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

you. Or, Koleyaq oc (he/she will be Gina: St. Vincent de Paul, Oromocto good to you), since you don’t have Church. any parents. So that’s how things Alice: They kept church records back were. It’s just like arranging it. Like if then? you were younger and I said, well. Gina: No. The record—when I tried to And you met somebody and this guy find out, at that time, for my old age. asked you. And you tell this Elder, he I tried to find the records at birth and asked me to marry him. Well I could I went to the rectory there. He said tell you to marry him, he’ll be good the records that were there burnt at to you. And that’s how it was. the Burton Court House. You see, all Alice: Gina had five children from her the records were there. But he had an first marriage, which she does not old ledger there for the confirmation want to remember. Her second mar- and that’s how I know. And it was riage, no children. aged, I guess, from way back, and he Gina: Living here in Woodstock hasn’t said this was all he had. been too bad, I am sort of a loner Alice: Tell me something of what Peta anyway. I don’t mix around too had told you about traditional Indians. much. I’m friendly with everyone Gina: Well, what he use to say about here. I have no grievances with what they did, you know there is so anyone. much to be said that. We use to talk Alice: You mentioned to me that you about the Indians, how when they had use to visit Peta (Dr. Peter Paul). big families. I didn’t know that they Gina: Yes, I use to, because I was inter- abandoned their kids sometimes, ested and I wanted to find my grand- when there is too many of them and mother. But all the old people are they can’t feed them. gone and down home, there is no one. Alice: I never heard of that. My sister Ruth has been trying to find Gina: I didn’t either until Peta told me. out and of course, I did to. I had a He said, like they would abandon like hard time finding my birth certificate. a new born baby. Like this man In those days we had, like a visiting would have like four or six kids and Priest. A rotating Priest, they would he couldn’t feed them. So if the new come maybe, like once a month to born baby, they would move to an- Oromocto. And this is why there was other camp and leave that to another. no birth certificate, sometimes just a And I didn’t know that. And this is Baptismal. I was born in December, what he said, he said that way back but not Baptized until February, and I then, white people use to do that, think this is why. I remember the they’d give them away. Priest and he was Father Allen, that Alice: Tell me about the traditional was long time ago. dress. Alice: What Parish? Gina: Oh, that. I don’t know what it’s

140 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

called. A bonnet, it looks like a Dutch violin? hat and a cloth that looks like a bib. Gina: Oh, I guess. When I was home, And they have a coat and it looks like when I was a little girl, they would it’s three quarter length. And it’s gather every night. There was Levi beaded or whatever it’s made of. I’ve Brooks, he use to play the Jew’s harp only seen a picture of it. And then the or the spoons. And Charlie Sark use long petticoat and your shoes, well to play the accordion, the mouth moccasins, they come up almost to organ. And the Sabattis boys use to the knee. The pictures that he showed play the violin. You must have heard me, there was not one feather. Men of Noel By. His name was Noel Paul like, if there was a ceremony, they and he use to, when the guy was would have a feather. Like if there’s playing the fiddle, he would hit the certain—I imagine, like you said— back ends of the neck of the violin. It they have this Indian ceremonies. sounded like the bass violin, that’s Because they use to—I don’t know what it sounded like. And they had a what they called it. I use to hear them jam every night and they would sing. say it, Altestakonol (shakers). Like I And it was the same thing at St. said before, they had them horns. Mary’s. There was always two or Cow horns, stuffed with stones or three guys with guitars. They would pebbles. And this is what they would always get together every night and do, they would chant and that’s what I there use to be a lot of people, elders, remember. They had their dances at would sit outside and listen. It’s so the houses, somebody’s house, or like different now. Too bad that, that is your house. And there really wasn’t gone. When I first came up here that much drinking either. There was Minnie was down at the old Reserve. a little, they made their own brew. And Minnie, when she was putting Everyone had a jug. I think anyone the kids to sleep, she would be rock- with Indian Ancestry remembers Bees ing by the window. And she would be Beer. That’s what they use to call it, singing loud, no one would laugh at Bees Beer. I remember when there her, she would be rocking her baby. was dances, there was kids sitting Alice: Ronnie Paul mentioned the same around there, watching the old folks thing, with his children, and he would dance. But like I said, there was not make up his own Indian songs. too much drinking. And you couldn’t Gina: Sometimes things came to me, but buy liquor back then anywhere, I think I’m forgetting all my Indian. anyway. And every once in a while it comes to Alice: Did you find, like when you were me, but when I want to tell some- growing up like in Oromocto, St. body, I forget again. It’s a hard lan- Mary’s, Woodstock, the men back guage to spell. then were talented? They could play Alice: Write it the way it sounds to you.

141 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Gina: We talk differently, like Oromocto one time, there are no swear words in Indian. And when I came to St. Indian. Mary’s, some words are different. Gina: Well, sqehsomuhs wi wasis. Bitch And then when I came up here, it was is sqehsomuhs or pokutnunse [bas- different. tard]. But that was not a swear word. END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE Bastard is in the dictionary, so it’s not TAPE ONE SIDE TWO really a swear word. You are not able Gina: Pilick [Kingsclear] is the same to say really filthy words. too. We would take Jenny for a ride Somebody was saying we should get and she spoke all Indian. And the next together and talk Indian, just Indian. I time we went down—but we haven’t said, what little we remember. gone down for three or four years— Alice: Joe and I went to Princeton, not and they couldn’t understand one Princeton, but sipayik, one year. And word of it. That’s how fast they forget they had—well, we are both AA it. members—and they have AA meet- Alice: I like to talk Indian, and my ings over there on Saturdays. I think mother does too. it was Dianne that was telling us that Gina: I can’t speak it in full tongue. they only speak Passamaquoddy, Neqotkukyik (people from Tobique) when they are in the meeting. can. My sister Theresa, she can speak Gina: It should be like that with us too. it. But there are too many white women Alice: I went to see Royden and that’s and nobody wants to speak Indian. all he spoke was Indian. I know what Alice: Even the Indians here, don’t want his talking about. I understand it. to talk Indian. I like to talk Indian, Gina: And they have different pronun- you know. ciations. Gina: Me too. It’s coming back to me Alice: Yes. He told me that there was no now. But I can’t carry a whole con- swear words in Indian. versation in Indian, but I wish I could Gina: No. speak it fluently. It’s strange, I could Alice: There is not suppose to be any he never speak a word of English when I told me. I guess through the years, first came up here. I could say ‘yes’ they came up with them anyway. I or ‘I don’t know’ and that was it. And asked him what lahkihikon (garden now I don’t remember my Indian. I hoe) means, he said, Because use to be able to name all the trees, all lahkihikon, right away ,we assume the animals, river. My prayers was in it’s a whore, eh? He said that is not Indian, the Our Father, Hail Mary, it true, lahkihikon is a hoe, when you was all Indian and now nothing. I are working in your garden. I said, can’t, I don’t think I could even bless yeah. And I was thinking, gee, that’s myself in Indian. Skiff Lake, they right. Because my mother told me have that Indian Prayer in Maliseet.

142 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Last year, they said it in different to shed blood anywhere. They use to languages, Dutch, French. look through the hair for nits and lice Alice: Do a lot of our people go there, to everyday, but on this day it wasn’t Skiff Lake? done, didn’t want to shed blood by Gina: Oh yes, quite a few. There is quite busting the nits [said in Maliseet]. a picnic there. That’s in the second Yes, that’s the truth, that’s how they week in August. It’s for everybody, use to be. Indians use to be very, very there are two or three priests there. religious. They held Good Friday, so It’s a big gathering. (pause) Alice: How did you find Religion with Alice: What I can remember, we had to the Indian people back then? go to church every Sunday. We had to Gina: They were very religious. Reli- go to confession. We couldn’t eat gion, it would put all these modern meat on Friday. We had to wear a hat Catholics to shame the way the in church. Everybody was like that, Indians were, they believed in it so everybody use to go to church back much. I remember Kci Skehewahtoq then. Now, you are lucky if you can (Good Friday). And I remember we get anybody there I guess. use to get up at three am. in the Gina: But old Indians were very, very morning. I don’t think you remember religious. That priest, you would that little brook, down there in think that he was God himself, they Oromocto, and a little bridge. And worshipped him so much, they re- that’s where the Indians in Oromocto spected him so much. It’s sad, they use to get their water from, this little don’t carry the tradition about that brook. They had a hole there. And death and the calling, when it was they would get us out of bed, who- time to pray. Of course, we have the ever we were staying with, and they funeral homes now, we don’t keep would get us up and go out to pray by our dead at home. this little brook. We didn’t care if it Alice: Some people do. was cold or stormy, we’d get out of Gina: Well, I think it’s wise to keep bed and go pray by that little brook. them in the funeral home, it’s kind of You’d drink that water and bless sad to have somebody at home. yourself. Alice: Yeah, I found it kind of sad when Alice: Almost like Holy Water? Joe died. Like I had him over here, Gina: That’s what they use it for, they and that was sad, but he wanted to be use it for Holy Water. And you get a up here when he died. bottle of it and that’s how they used Gina: I can understand that, his home is it, you bless yourself and drink the there. I always thought where you water. And then on Easter Sunday and married. It’s your home. I know I like Good Friday, all day Good Friday, to be home, but this is my home. you hardly say a word. You don’t try Alice: Well, he wanted to come home,

143 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

so I brought him up and that’s where pails for water. And I had a shed and I he died. That was sad, his mother had a little stand for my water. There passing away two months before him, was two of these wine bottles behind but anyway. Do you know about the water pail and Eugene came along Indian medicine? and I wanted my kitchen stove moved Gina: Kiwhosuwos [calamus root] and out to the shed. And Eugene said, Kakskutkwesik [cedar]. I wouldn’t try what is that behind the pail. I told him it now, because I use to see them mix it was brew. He said, I’ll take your the cedar and some kind of bark. stove out to the shed if you let me They use to mix it for cough medi- have that. I said, go ahead take it out. cine. I remember that, but I’ve never And he got another guy and they took tried it, because I wasn’t sure. I don’t that stove out, they set it all up for know. And they use to call them me. And they took them two bottles, Labradors, Pahsi Pokaskil. I don’t they shoved them into their pants, know why they call them. They are around the waist and took off to the smooth on the outside and like a graveyard. When he came back he velvet on the bottom and they use to said they drank it all, but it didn’t use that for kidneys. Like I said, I’ve give them any kick. It was that medi- never tried them. I use to see them do cine, I could have poisoned those two it, and I don’t know what else they guys. I didn’t know they thought it put in it. I remember Eugene. Eugene was wine. It was in green bottles and came up here and I was living down the liquid was kind of brown. And I the old house then. My first husband got hell from Eugene, he said, your had gone to the Sanitarium. His aunt brew was not any good. had made some of this kidney medi- Eugene use to hang around here quite a cine for my husband, but he left bit. And Dickie and Gabe use to come before he finished it. And there was up every once in a while. two bottles and in those days we had END OF TAPE

144 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

9. Wintertime trading

BOB NASH GAGETOWN

They traded. Like in the wintertime, Dad used to take a team of horses over to Jemseg. He’d take a whole day, go there with a great big bunch of baskets, clothes baskets, ax handles. I went with him once. It was a long day for me, but we had lots of groceries when we got back. Salt pork, beef, oh everything, ham, that’s what the people liked.

Plate 9.1: Nash family Houseboat, on the left is Mr. Jim Nash (photo courtesy of William Nash)

145 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: Bob, were you born and brought Tom, they would come with us. They up here in Gagetown? generally stayed in the tugboat until Bob: Yes, I was born March 5th, 1930, feeding time and then they would get in Gagetown, down by Dingy Shore. out of the tugboat, get in the row From then on Dad had two scows. boats and go have their lunch. The Alice: Who was your mother and fa- boat never stops until the time we get ther? to Fredericton in the morning. By the Bob: Jim and Lena. time we get to Gagetown, it would be Alice: Jim and Lena Nash? the next day and it took days unload- Bob: Well, she was a Sabattis from ing. And then we’d head back up Oromocto. again. Alice: Where was your dad from? Alice: What were you unloading? Bob: We don’t know. He never told us. Bob: Lumber. Buy lumber from the His brothers were from Fredericton Reid’s store. Put it in the ships and and I know them all. send them down Saint John and Alice: Are you related to everyone overseas I guess. Yes, and Dad had a around here? little farm down here, near the shore. Bob: Yes, all but the next door neigh- And we lived there, I think until bours. Donovans, not related to them 1949. And they moved to Gagetown, at all. Mostly all Nashes down here. moved their house down below. Alice: Could you tell me about your Alice: Did your Dad teach you every- growing up here? thing you know about fiddleheading, Bob: When we were in Gagetown, Dad trapping hunting? used to work for Reids. Towing Bob: Trapping yes, he did. I went with scows from Fredericton to Gagetown, my brothers more. Dad, Dan, Tom and load them on the schooners that and I would go and trap with them, they used to have. And I can just still but I was just young. Him and Tom remember them, that was 1938, I was had a nice little cabin over there. about eight years old. And then we Reid’s cabin they used. And they used to travel back and forth. And we were getting a lot of rats. Once they used tug boats and scows with our get over the spring, before the ice house boat. moves. You have to stay over there Alice: Could you tell me about the until, pretty well all the ice moves. house boat? Because years ago, the ice would pile Bob: It was just like a home. Everything up to eight to ten feet high. There was was in it, bunkbeds. And Dad’s tug no dams or nothing, came from way boat had bunkbeds in that too. Dad up country and we had to stay over and Mom, we stayed in the house there. Of course we had lots to eat, boat. Once in a while Henry would muskrats. I used to get three cents for come with us. Jenny Lee Dan and a mouse. Dingy’s fox farm, that’s

146 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 9.2: Bob's grandfather, Joe Sabattis (Kansos) and mother, Lena (Mrs. Jim Nash) of Gagetown, New Brunswick (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-12124).

what they used to pay me, that old farmhouse. I was born down there. I man. don’t remember anybody born in the Alice: What was the old man’s name? doctor’s down here. Bob: George Dingy. Alice: Was your aunt or your mother a Alice: How many brothers do you have? midwife that delivered babies? Bob: I had seven brothers. Bob: My mother used to and Mrs. Louie Alice: And sisters? Paul, she used to live at Upper Bob: I had six of them. Gagetown. She used to come down Alice: You had a big family too. and help mom. Bob: Thirteen, that’s a lot, I guess. Alice: The trapping, you do that every Alice: Were they born in Fredericton, in year? the hospital? Bob: Yes. Bob: No. They were born in my father’s Alice: Is that all you do, you don’t

147 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

fiddlehead? Dingys, help them hay. That’s a long, Bob: Well, I used to a long time ago, I long time ago. used to go help Sam. He showed me Alice: What year would that have been? all these places and after he quit Bob: That would have been 1942-43, fiddleheading, he wanted me to take war was on. We moved down here, over, so I did. Molly, my sister, used we wasn’t allowed to go on white to help me and Norma and a few man’s premises, down here at the more people, but I wouldn’t know school. Until I snuck in there, I was their names now. the first one that went to school in Alice: Do you know anything about the Gagetown. I used to go down there Jemseg area? and play ball with the kids and they Bob: I never did fiddlehead down here. snuck me in the school in grade 12 We used to go up Sugar Island and room. After a while the teacher found out to Durham way. And way up, out I didn’t belong there, I wasn’t before they built the Mactaquac supposed to be there. [dam], we used to go up there Prince Alice: Did you graduate? William, that’s where Sam showed Bob: No. I went a couple of years later. me years ago. The sheriff down here, George Alice: Was Bessie your sister? Brown, and they told Dad that I’d Bob: Yes. always go down to the school and Alice: I used to live next door to Bessie. play ball. And they would like me to How many people used to live down go to school and start grade one. there, do you remember? Alice: How old were you? Bob: Tom Brooks used to live next to Bob: I was thirteen or fourteen. the river side. Over here was Dad’s Alice: And you never went to school brother, it was Tom, Tom Nash. And before that? then up toward front way, towards the Bob: Well, I did in Fredericton there. I road, I think was Steve’s daughter. must have went for about a year, And Steve was next to that small close to a year anyway. And I went woman that used to teach school— down here for four years. My sisters used to be a schoolhouse here, eh. Molly and Viola, they went. After And there was a big white house, and they knew I was going to school, they then there was Sam Brooks, and went with me. I think Molly was Mike’s father used to live over here. nineteen or twenty and Viola (pause) Polons (Frank Sacobie) used to live when they started. I think Molly there and then Wisemans used to live stayed a little longer, she stayed to just about the middle of that. I went grade nine. I think she was twenty- to school up there when I was staying seven. with my sister. And I had to come Alice: Molly passed away. down here and do the haying with the Bob: Yes.

148 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: Viola is still alive? Alice: I think someone else told me that Bob: Yes. too. I forget who, but they heard Alice: Where is she at? different languages on one of those Bob: Cape Breton. islands. Alice: Bill is still alive? Bob: So we came in from there and hit Bob: Yes. I have one brother and two the mouth of Grand Lake. And that sisters left. Point, that’s where we used to camp Alice: Jemseg area do you know any- and we used to go up there and thing about that? there’s butternut trees. In September, Bob: Like what? we used to go up there on this white Alice: Where they were digging. man’s land and they could see us Bob: Quite a few years ago, Jack from the house. We’ d sneak up and Waterberry when he first moved up they chase us away from there. So from Saint John and with his wife, one time he was there behind a tree, Alma’s mother, and I think she was we got up to it and he stepped out. He only quite small. We used to go to said, why don’t you fellows stay on Portobello, a whole month or so or your land down there and don’t maybe six weeks. We’d spend the bother coming up and bothering my whole summer anyway and they used butternuts. So we went and told the to show us all of those Indian Places, old man and we never went back Indian Point, up to the Maquapit Lake since. and up to that French Lake, the other Alice: Who was this man? side of Douglas Harbour. Indian Bob: I think his name was Gunter, he Point, that’s a bad place, I wouldn’t was an old, old farm man. Well, now, want to live there. Jim, Dad and Jack they made baskets, Alice: Why? What’s so bad about it? ax handles and they go visit him. Bob: We spent one night there and I was They don’t get no money, they just glad to get out of there. trade for vegetables and stuff like Alice: Spooked? that. Bob: Oh yeah, you can hear people Alice: It was okay for them to trade, but night-time. And Dad said ignore it wasn’t okay for you to take them, if you don’t want to listen, you butternuts? won’t hear them. But he said, the Bob: Yes. more you listen to them, the more you Alice: That’s strange. hear them. Bob: Them days, those nuts were hard Alice: What were they talking? to get. Years ago, down below, there Bob: Indian, Indian in different lan- used to be a bridge there that opens guage than ours. up all along there. Mom and Dad Alice: Really? said, we’re all right from the bridge Bob: Yeah. on up to the point. On down below,

149 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

he said, it was different and we gener- down here, just young fellows—like ally don’t camp there. But that’s all I the young fellow that just left. We know about those rivers and Jemseg. were down here one night, we gener- Alice: Do you know anything about ally go bonfiring down there and Brown’s Flat? spend most of our summers down the Bob: No, I don’t. beach. And across from the beach— Alice: What about Sheffield? where they have that girl guide camp, Bob: No. We never did go up that way. all along there—I’m pretty sure that But there was only one place there the Indians lived there before. It’s Dad used to tell me, right there before haunted. you get to that Country Pumpkin, up We were sitting there one night and they there by Burton Bridge. He told us had these fire crackers, the kids were that’s Indian land that runs from the putting out. And it must have been Saint John River. The streams run in eleven pm., it was nice and calm and the backside, come out below Burtt’s all of a sudden on the other side of Corner, next to the railway tracks. He the river was a great big bonfire. And said in there, there’s a strip of land you could hear the people hollering to that belongs to Indians. And that this side and the kids would holler fellow that drowned, he used to trap back at them. And we thought it was down here, Buck Nash. Buck Nash the people along the camp shore. The used to live there one time, we used next morning I told the boys take a to stop in there. When Dad goes up boat and run over to see who was with, had an empty boat, going up to over there. They went over there and get a load of scows, and walk up over there wasn’t a thing where we seen the hill, he used to have a bungalow. the fire, not even ashes. Alice: This place where you are all at, Alice: When was this? like all the Nashes along here, is this Bob: It was about three years ago. Indian land? Alice: And nothing like that occurred Bob: No. I bought all this land in 1973, again? when I was working for Cooper. And Bob: Well, before that. I don’t know if I bought it clear to the hill. I bought Beaver mentioned to you or not. I land and sold to housing down here. guess they were down there, I wasn’t. In front here I have 38 acres and 104 And they thought they seen canoes acres from the corner of the army going in the moonlit night. line. I bought another lot down there Alice: Yes, I think he did mention that. just before you get to Bill’s on the Bob: And so, but they stay pretty well opposite side of the road. There is on that side. another place down here, I don’t Alice: They don’t bother you at all? know if you are going to believe me Bob: No. But if there’s any Indian land, or not. If you ask some of the boys it will be on the Girl Camp shore.

150 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: So what does that mean to you? Alice: A lot of people like that. Is it to protect the land? Bob: Any time we have a big fire on. Bob: I’m pretty sure. I mentioned this to Alice: How often do you have a fire? Beaver one time and I mentioned it to Bob: Pretty near every night, and pretty my older sister. Well they said, Dad near every day, we cook down there. never mentioned nothing. But it Alice: Did your father ever tell you would have to be years ago. That’s anything about the ‘little people’? the highest side, this side was the low Bob: Yes. Mom and Dad, they even took side, and there was a lot of timber in us over there, they call Mound House, that land. So, they must have stayed great big house over there made out and hunted years ago. of brick. Yes, they seen them down Alice: Do you know of any burial there. They took us there, but we grounds? never seen of course, we was too Bob: I wouldn’t know. young. Alice: Do you know anything about red Alice: What did they do, did they ever ochre? say? Bob: No. Bob: Well, Mom said they live in that Alice: What about canoes, birch bark old building. And they were small, canoes? but you would only see them in Bob: No. moonlit nights, didn’t see them any Alice: So you’re father made baskets? other time. Bob: Yes. Alice: Would they be harmful to you? Alice: Your mother also? Bob: I don’t think so, because Dad and Bob: They traded. Like in the winter- them said they were just people. One time, Dad used to take a team of time you could draw a big boat in horses over to Jemseg. He’d take a there and there was a beautiful house whole day, go there with a great big in there, now it’s all falling down. bunch of baskets, clothes baskets, ax And I was in there with people from handles. I went with him once. It was the United States, this last summer I a long day for me, but we had lots of took them in there. They wanted to groceries when we got back. Salt see what it was like in the inside. It pork, beef, oh everything, ham, that’s had three fireplaces—I don’t think what the people liked. there was any stoves in them days— Alice: Did you eat a lot of Indian and they come out like a furnace and Bread? big flat rocks, probably how they Bob: Oh yeah, lots. cooked on it. It’s always worth to see, Alice: Do you eat a lot of it today? before the house falls down you Bob: I make my own down at the beach. should go down and tape it, like the Sharon comes down. The white men, people down the States did. They they love it. heard about that clear down the other

151 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

side of Boston. Andy and Louise, the other side of Alice: About the ‘little people’? Isaac was Andrew Paul. And Bob: About the ‘little people’ and the Josephine and Elsie and then Dedam, house. Joe Dedam and Gabe and Freddie and Alice: And they lived there, the ‘little Claire... people’? END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE Bob: As far as Dad said, they used to TAPE ONE SIDE TWO live there years ago. But how could Bob: Qumuci and that’s as far as the they build a big monster of a build- houses used to be. And after the war, ing? That was a long, long time ago. Paul Paul, they started building Alice: Did you hang out with people houses up, up that way. And then the from St. Mary’s? schoolhouse and then back there. And Bob: I used to, when I lived with my clear back down to Sam’s, next to sister. Like the old boy, Estey, used to your father’s and Meme. play the fiddle and I would go and Alice: We lived right between them. I visit him all the time. That’s how I remember them. learned to play the fiddle. I used to Bob: Then I remember Roger Paul, play. across the road from us and after that Alice: People that I have talked to, that I was Tom interviewed, they mention a lot of, Brooks and Geraldine. And then the like Indian men, that can play fiddle, next one was Becca Bear and Eddie. organ, guitar. Back then they were There was only one street up the hill talented. before the war. Where George lives Bob: They were. Eddie Paul used to live now, there used to be that well house, just above him [Estey]. Eddie Paul, brick. We used to hang around a great Isaac. big, high concrete, for the water. We Alice: Isaac Paul, who was his wife? Do used to hang around there a lot, down you remember Ruby? the foot of the hill there. There was a Bob: Yes. lot of rock there. It was right next to Alice: Would it have been her sister? the road. Down below there used to Bob: Johnny Paul married my mother’s be a ball-field. Then the road runs in sister. Johnny Paul used to live up like that, across the tracks. Where that Kingsclear. My sister Julie married old railway track is where them new Eddie Paul. people moved in, just before the Alice: That would be Ronnie Paul’s tracks it was all wood. I can still father Eddie right? picture all that. Bob: Yes. Isaac, that’s his son, Eddie’s. Alice: What year would that be, when And John Cassey lived across from, they had the ball-field? right across the road there. Next door Bob: In 1959. neighbour was that girl that burnt. Alice: The way things are today and the

152 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

way things were back then, what On account that dad had too much would you prefer, now or then? business going on, he had his own tug Bob: I would rather be back then. boats, farm houses. Alice: You know, a lot of them, like my Alice: But why would that make any mother and them, my mother said she difference? would like to be back then too. Bob: Well, as far as we could tell, they Bob: We lived a better life. It is a better were jealous, because Dad had stuff life. Now, it’s a faster life and you got he wanted. He learned by himself to keep up. Everything has changed how to get things going, and from so bad, even the law. Right now, they then on that was it. Every time we can even come in and make you cut tried to go on reservation, they your lawn, if it’s six or seven inches wouldn’t accept us. Right now, they high. Years ago, there was nothing still don’t want us on reservation in like that. Oromocto. Alice: Melvin Nash, that would be your Alice: Well, Junior Nash, like his fam- nephew, eh? Are they trying to form ily, like, they are members of our like an Indian reserve down here? band. Bob: Not that I know of. Bob: Yeah, was he ever on reservation? Alice: I heard someone saying that, I Lived. don’t know how true it was. Have Alice: No, not that I know of. you been Bob: Same as us, they are getting the reinstated Bob? money off us. They get thirty-two Bob: For what? thousand dollars a year, each family. Alice: Indian status, do you have Indian When we fought for that last summer, status? that time they lost big money up Bob: Yeah, from Oromocto. there, bankrupt. That guy from Ot- Alice: Like a lot of them have been tawa told us that there’s lots of money reinstated, eh. How come when we in there. got our band numbers back, then how Alice: I think there was suppose to be so come you guys were not included? many houses built for Bill C-31 and Because back then, you lived at the then the other. Would you live there old reserve, didn’t you? now? Bob: No, never lived there at all. They, Bob: No. It’s too boxed in. I like the one time, when Isaac was the Chief open, freedom. And you don’t own and Paul Paul, they almost had us in the house, here what is here, is mine. there. A lot of people want us go on A lot of money for tax, around twelve reservation, like Tom Nash. And hundred for my area here, but you Steve Nash lived down below the hill, have to keep paying it up. It’s so so Dad wanted a place down there, quiet. That’s the only thing I use here somewhere, but they turned us down. [wood stove]. I have no base heater,

153 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

nothing. I built my house on a slab. I them. My mother and father [Dokie have never lost any flowers. It’s well and Tina] and Uncle Dick [Richard insulated, I have about a foot upstairs Brooks]. and here. When Boy Nash built it for Bob: Sam and I used to paddle up, way me, he insulated it good. up to that bridge by McKinnley Ferry. Alice: Boy Nash ever come see you? We’d go way up in there and Bob: He used to come down, lately he fiddlehead all the way down. We’d hasn’t, since his wife had an opera- stop and visit them for a while, we’d tion. Last fall sometime. drink the bees beer. [Discussion about young people on Alice: That must have been the going reserve.] thing, amuwesey [bees beer]. Alice: Did you ever make baskets? Bob: It was. Everybody had them. Bob: I used to. I used to make ax han- Alice: I don’t think anybody has that dles if I wasn’t working, a past time. I anymore. make my own for my own use. And Bob: No, it’s scarce. I pretty near made still trapping. I just like to go out and enough. My fault was I left it too long boat around. The birds make you and it got so strong. They would start think and the geese and the ducks, to grow good, but I left them outside wherever you’re paddling to. and they froze on me. Alice: Sometimes we don’t see what is Alice: I thought they had to be kept around us, how pretty and beautiful warm. everything is. Bob: I forgot, I was away hunting. Bob: I was just a young fellow, running [Talking about home brew.] gas pumps up there and I was talking Alice: Life was good for you when you to him. He said, now, I’m starting were growing up? fishing, I like to go out in the country Bob: Yes. I started work when I was do a little fishing. He said, I’ve never fourteen. done this before and I like it. So he’s Alice: What did you do? picking up something, things he Bob: Drive a truck. should have been doing when he was Alice: What kind of truck? young. Sam and I used to go to Bob: Gravel truck. Boisetown fiddleheading, we would Alice: You did that for how long? stay there for a week and come back Bob: Until I got to be sixty-five, two home. years ago. I bought my own in 1974, I Alice: You mentioned Sugar Island. Did had two trucks one time. you ever go on Savage Island? Alice: How many children do you have? Bob: Yes, Warren used to have a camp Bob: Two children and one adopted boy, there and who was the other one. he was six months old when we got Alice: There was Warren and him. Evangeline and Louie, I remember Alice: How old is he today?

154 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Bob: Forty-three years old. He is out welfare rest of my life. And I don’t west, in Ontario. want to do that, I’d sooner being Alice: The other children, they are right doing something. And right now, I am here? doing this work and I enjoy it. Going Bob: Yes and our grandchildren, all but to see the older people, talking about James. Staying up there with his a long time ago, how things were. grandmother [Joan] in St. Mary’s. He And you learn a lot from it. is a smart little fellow, he moved in Bob: You see there is not enough of this with me in 1988. He was going to Indian talk with children. I like to talk school down here and went to Indian. Andy, some person was Oromocto. Of course I shoved him. I learning him in Oromocto, talking told him, I said, you go up there and Indian. He come down here pro- go to school. And when you get old nouncing names. I said, no, that is not enough and you can drive, I’ll get you how you say it. So this young person a car. That’s what I did. He kept at it, up there, he doesn’t know much about he still at it. He’s willing to do any- language, eh, but they put him in thing and he is trying to. He said, I there for (pause) won’t quit school until I graduate, I Alice: Who is it? might go to college, I might not. I Bob: He said he is some relation to us. I said, why go to college, no jobs. He wouldn’t know which one, so many wants to either join Army or go to up there. Myself, I like to talk Indian. RCMP. RCMP too dangerous, Army Royden used to come down, from not too bad. I said if there is any war Kingsclear. Mike. We sit here half a at all, we are not going to last any- day talking, like Indian, eh. And I way. Pete my other grandson, he don’t want to forget none of it, what wanted to be a mechanic, he is now. little I know of. Alice: You do a lot of things around Alice: Well, if we don’t use it, we could your home, because I’ve seen you lose it. with the animals, your workshop. Bob: Yes. Bob: I love mechanic work, same as Alice: My mother, when I go see her, Pete. Him and I work together. What that’s all she does is talk Indian. And he doesn’t know, he’ll come and ask I try myself to talk Indian. me. And now next fall, when he goes Bob: Pat Sacobie used to come down a back to school, he’s going to take up lot before his wife died, wife’s name for that. I’d like to see him move was Grace. Now he don’t hardly ahead instead of working in the come at all. Jim Sark used to bring woods. Pat down. Alice: That’s what I did, I was thirty- Alice: How do you say duck in Indian? one and I went back to school. I said, Bob: Motehehsim. Donna’s youngest I don’t want to sit here and depend on daughter is trying to pick up the

155 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 9.3: the late Christina Nash (photo by Karen Perley).

language too. But I keep telling her in Fredericton? that, I’ll just tell you one word at a Bob: No, my brother. That was time. Christina’s husband. He was the Years ago, Bill Nash, all he used to do muskrat man, not a hunter. Like Bill, was work on the farm. Him and worked the farm all his life. George. George was really the Alice: Bill never trapped or hunted? muskratter, when it was muskrat time. Bob: Not until after Dingy died. Then Alice: George Nash, that’s one that was he moved down there, that’s when he

156 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

started trapping. He must have been I said, Dorothy, let’s go down and see in his forties or fifties when he started Bill and Mildred. I want to see this trapping. crow that can talk. When I got in that Alice: He owned a pet crow didn’t he? driveway Bobby, I could hear it Bob: Yes, and he talked bad. already… And it swore at me after I Alice: Me and my sister came down one got in the house. And his name was day, because she told me about this Charlie, I couldn’t believe that. crow and it could talk, but I didn’t Bob: They used to keep it down in the believe her. So one Sunday, I wasn’t basement. That’s a raven. doing anything, I went up and got her. END OF TAPE

157 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

158 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

10. Digging holes in the brooks

NOEL FRANCIS JUNIOR WITH KATHLEEN FRANCIS MADAWASKA MALISEET FIRST NATION

My father was a fly fisherman. There is a story that he told us. When he was young, around ten or twelve years old, his father used to bring him along, especially in the fall, when they gathered food for the winter. And he would go up river with bows and if they saw a caribou or—because at the time, I think the deer was limited. That was only something that was introduced, it was mainly caribou. And they would take the meat and where there was brooks. They used to dig holes in the brooks and put the meat there, so it would keep fresh. And on their way down from the river, they would gather all the food and bring it back for the winter. That’s what they were doing in the fall. Dad remembered, he was telling us when his father did that.

Plate 10.1: Noel's father and mother, Noel Francis Sr. and Kate Francis, Madawaska Maliseet First Nation, (photo courtesy of Kathleen Francis).

159 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: Noel could you give me a brief or fifty-five. history of St. Basile? Alice: Do you remember any of the old Noel: As far as I can find out, the St. Indians that were here? Basile Reserve was established in Noel: Well the oldest I remember would 1867, at the time of Confederation. be Joe Wallace, Noel Bernard. There And for a number of years, we didn’t used to be, like my aunt, two of my have a Chief here. The Chief was the aunts, Aunt Alice and Aunt Carrie. one at Tobique, that was responsible Alice: What was your father name? for our Reserve. In 1955, we had an Noel: Noel. election for a Chief on the St. Basile Alice: Noel Francis, the same as yours. Reserve and from that time on, we Was he Indian? have been electing Council every two Noel: Yes. years. At the time that the reserve was Alice: Did he talk the language? established, it was a good part of the Noel: A little bit, a few words, but it was city, the city of Edmundston. And very limited. during some years, it was kind of a Alice: Does anybody make baskets here shrink to the size of it today. And today? when it was in the city of Noel: Today nobody is making baskets Edmundston, it used to be the village, that I know of. I used to make a little where it is pretty well the centre of bit. In my generation there was prob- Edmundston. And the burial ground ably, there was a few. My father’s was in front of the Cathedral. There generation there was more. Like two was records that we heard was burnt. of my father’s sisters made baskets. But as far as we can get information, And Joe Wallace made baskets and this is what took place. Today, we Noel Bernard. have seven hundred, a little bit over Alice: Two of your aunts, Alice and seven hundred acres. But at the time, Carrie, were they from Tobique? it was over two thousand acres, it Noel: They’re from here. shrunk. Alice: They’re from here and they made Alice: What is the population here baskets, what kind of baskets? today? Noel: Potato baskets and fancy baskets. Noel: Today there is a one hundred on Alice: I hear a lot about fancy baskets. the reserve and there is about a hun- And I’ve seen some pictures of them dred living off the reserve. A total of and they are beautiful. What about two hundred members. hunting and fishing, does anybody Alice: Back in 1955, when whatever hunt and fish here? was going on here, had to answer to Noel: At that time, in my father’s gen- Tobique, what population did you eration, we were limited to fishing have here? and hunting only on the Reserve. Noel: Oh, we had probably around fifty Outside of the reserve, we had to buy

160 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 10.2: Noel's aunt, Carrie Francis, of Madawaska Maliseet First Nation, (photo courtesy of Kathleen Francis).

161 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

licenses. But since a few years ago, probably tell us stories, but when you these laws they were changed. It’s are young, you forget them. only that we weren’t aware that we Alice: What about fiddleheading? Did had the right to fish and hunt any- the older people fiddlehead around where, at any time. But now we do here? hunt and fish. I would say out of the Noel: Yes. families, there is (pause) and even Alice: Where did they get them? women do hunt and fish. I’d say more Noel: Along the Saint John River. We than 75% of us now. got all kinds, every spring it’s a, I Alice: In your father’s generation, like would say it’s a big feast, but we do back then, when they fished or get the fiddleheads. hunted, did your father ever tell you Alice: Every year? how they fished? Noel: Every year. Noel: My father was a fly fisherman. Alice: Do they have islands here? There is a story that he told us. When Noel: There is an island in between the he was young, around ten or twelve reserve and the United States, years old, his father used to bring him Madawaska. I think it’s Madawaska along, especially in the fall, when Island. That again, we were told it’s they gathered food for the winter. not part of the reserve. It was granted And he would go up river with bows to a guy named Martin at one time, and if they saw a caribou or—because but it’s something that needs to be at the time, I think the deer was researched. I know we had some limited. That was only something that research done on the reserve, but it was introduced, it was mainly cari- comes to a point that the funds are bou. And they would take the meat limited. And then you go farther and and where there was brooks. They farther, there’s no funds available. used to dig holes in the brooks and This is a big problem. put the meat there, so it would keep Alice: Let’s go back to your father. Back fresh. And on their way down from then, did they ever go out to other the river, they would gather all the reserves to go fiddleheading and food and bring it back for the winter. hunting and meet other Indian peo- That’s what they were doing in the ple? fall. Dad remembered, he was telling Noel: I know we used to go down to us when his father did that. Tobique. We had relatives in Tobique Alice: Did your father ever mention and pretty well each year, my father anything about spear fishing for would go down there and Aunt salmon? (pause) festival there, there’s a feast Noel: Not to us, no. there. I think St. Anne’s, every year. Alice: What about nets? Alice: Yes, St. Anne’s, every year in Noel: If he did, I can’t remember. Be- Tobique. cause sometimes, you know, he Noel: I remember my father going down 162 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

there, my Aunt Alice and Aunt Carrie. who knew about the medicine, Indian Alice: So, was that as far as they went? medicine. She was well known to Noel: Well, they were limited as far as cure all kinds of diseases, many kinds travel. of diseases. Even, she saved a man’s Alice: Yes. hand. Where the doctor was prepared Noel: So, my father had a sister in to cut it, he said there was no choice. Eastport, Maine. There is a reserve But with her medicine, she saved that there. I don’t recall seeing her. man. And he was a non-Indian and he Alice: Do you know her name? was a farmer and she saved the man’s Noel: Who is my father’s sister that hand. But nobody knew how to write lives in Eastport, Maine [asking his it at that time and we have got no mother]? records. I guess the Indians, the way Kathleen: I don’t remember her name. they had that everything was trans- Noel: Who was Madeline? ferred from one generation to another Kathleen: I couldn’t say, I don’t remem- by mouth. And hardly anything was ber her name. I know they had a sister kept. there, but I don’t know. She died Alice: I don’t believe there was any- before I came into the family and I thing written. Only what the non- never questioned them. native writes on how they see us. I’ve Alice: How many of you were there? never seen anything written, some- Noel: You mean? thing passed on generation to genera- Alice: You have sisters and brothers? tion. But I hear a lot of when I travel, Noel: I got two sisters and four brothers. about hunting and fishing, that may Alice: Are they all here in St. Basile, on have been passed on. About basket- the reserve? making and all these things that we Noel: I got a brother that died last do. winter. I got a brother in St. Basile, Noel: The little bit I know about basket- here. I got a brother in Buctouche, he making, is what I seen my aunt, both retired also last winter, he worked for my Aunt Carrie and Alice, when they CNR. I got a sister that lives on the were making some. And it’s only a reserve. The oldest sister lives in memory. Edmundston, she’s also retired. Alice: Can you remember them using Alice: It’s not a big reserve is it? But it’s colour on ash, or did they not colour growing. it. Noel: It’s one of the smallest reserves. Noel: Some of it was coloured. Alice: It’s got to be the smallest. Alice: Did they make their own dye or Noel: There is Fort Folly. did they buy it? Alice: Fort Folly has got to be the Noel: I think one colour they used was smallest. Did you father ever tell you alders bark. about Indian medicine? Alice: When Indian people were having Noel: No. Alice would be the person children back then, did women go to 163 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate10.3: Noel's grandparents, Madeline Desrosier and Gabriel Francis, (photo courtesy of Kathleen Francis).

the hospital or were there midwives? Kathleen: Madeline Dorosca, she came Noel: There were midwives, my genera- from Drummond. tion was with midwives. The only one Alice: Marriages on this reserve, back in the family, my mother went to the then, do you recall anyone mention- hospital with, was with the last one ing arranging a marriage? and we lost her. She was young, only Noel: No, I don’t recall. a baby at the time. It was the time that Alice: Do you know anything about they had, like people were dying left birch bark canoes? Do you remember and right, it was big disease. anyone making or speaking about Alice: Was it a plague? canoes? Noel: It was some kind. What do you Kathleen: No. When I came here, some call the sickness, your last daughter made baskets, ax handles. that died at the hospital, you’re last Alice: What kind of tools did they use baby that you had [asking his for ax handles? mother]? Kathleen: Women would come up from Kathleen: She died of diarrhea, she was Tobique with fancy baskets and sell only five months old. It was the year them up here. that the babies were dying left and Alice: What kind of tools did they use right of diarrhea. for ax handles? Noel: And she was the only one that you Kathleen: Ax handles. went to the hospital with? Noel: Crooked knife. Kathleen: Yes. Kathleen: Drawing knife. Billy Ellis Alice: Who delivered your children? used to make some. Kathleen: My husband’s mother deliv- Noel: Billy Ellis, there was an old man. ered my babies. Kathleen: I remember him making Alice: What was her name? some.

164 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: Did anyone ever use glass? what is available to them, they could Noel: Yes, to smooth them out. I re- make a good life. member that. Alice: No one speaks the Maliseet Alice: Could you tell me a bit about that language? and who did it. Noel: Nobody and that’s a real shame. Noel: Billy Ellis did some and Noel There used to be a school here on the Bernard made ax handles. How about reserve, my father went to school. Mark Bernard [asking his mother]? Alice: What year was that? Kathleen: Mark used to make rolling Noel: It would have been in the ‘40s I pins and doughnut turners. I still have guess. Dad was born in 1907 and that that. he would have gone to school in Alice: How old are they? 1915. Kathleen: Forty-five or forty-six years. Alice: That school must have been there Noel: Well, I’m sixty-one. for quite a while then? Kathleen: Well, I’m eighty-one. Kathleen: They had a picnic at that Alice: They have to be quite old. school and had pictures of that. I look Kathleen: Alice, my husband’s sister, at old pictures that you have then. I she gave me the rolling pin. had some that Carrie left when she Alice: Did they ever make hoops? died. I always kept that. I wanted to Kathleen: He made benches, nice show Ruth and O’neal to see if they benches to sit on. He had a little shop remember somebody in that picture. out back and he could work with But every time they come, I don’t wood [her husband think about that. Noel]. Noel: See that’s one thing about the Alice: Was life hard here, on the re- school, we don’t have records. I heard serve, when you were growing up? there was a big fire one time and all Noel: Depends on what you mean by the records were burned, like records hard. of this reserve. I asked the Indian Alice: Like food, was there enough? agent one time, like for information Noel: We had a little bit to eat, we didn’t for this reserve. When it was estab- have big quantities, like at supper. We lished and so on. And I got a letter didn’t have running water or electric- from him saying that the time the ity, but that was pretty well mostly reserve was established in 1867, but everywhere. I remember when I was there are no records. six or seven years, the old city dump Alice: Do you have your own church on was on the reserve, so a bunch of us this reserve? children were always going to the Noel: No. dump. My father’s generation had it Alice: So, usually churches hold records hard. We had it better. And our gen- of Indian people. eration, if only they take advantage of Noel: I did get a hold of old records

165 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

from the St. Basile Parish. The priest Noel: Mostly Catholic. that was there… I got a photocopy of Alice: Were they strong believers? records that the church had as far as Noel: Pretty well, yes. My generation, I population. People—like records that remember that the Cathedral was the the priest at that time came up with. church that we were going. But, I And he said, well there was a ‘x’ can’t recall exactly the date, but there number of Indians around and a was another parish that was formed, certain ‘x’ number the next year. I the Sacred Heart. I think it was the don’t know what year the St. Basile early 50’s type of thing, but they Church was established. closed the church. Now we are going Alice: It must go back quite a ways if back to the Cathedral. So the church it’s holding records of Indian people. is also having problems. What was the religion like here, were END OF TAPE people very religious?

166 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

11. Goddamn army trucks

ELIZABETH PAUL WELMOOKTUK/OROMOCTO FIRST NATION

Any kind of glass you see around here on the windows. They had to shape them and smooth your ax handle or hammer handle, pick ax handle. They smooth the glass, then they smooth the wood. I used to like to watch them. Especially when they said, come on over and get your suhpin, a great big cup with handle on it. You have to pour water on that stone and then turn the wheel on. When they do the drawknife and jackknife, they have to sharpen it, and then you have to pour water on that stone. And then a crank and have to crank it real slow, until that stone is all wet. Then sharpen drawknife and crooked knife and jackknife.

…But that time they moved us to Kingsclear in 1947. Goddamn army trucks. Army trucks were going around the reserve and they said, come on, you’re moving, you’re moving up Kingsclear.

Alice: Elizabeth, you are known as Alice: Who were you’re grandmother Sapet right? and grandfather? Elizabeth: Yes. Elizabeth: Stephen Meuse and Lolly, her Alice: Where were you born? first name, was it Sarah? Elizabeth: I was born in St. Mary’s in Alice: It sounds like Sarah. 1930. Elizabeth: I don’t know what was her Alice: Who was your mom and dad? right name. Elizabeth: Bessie Meuse and Sylvester Alice: I remember her, she lived in Sabattis Becca’s old house, long time ago. Alice: Where were they from? Elizabeth: And I don’t know how long Elizabeth: One was from Oromocto and we stayed in St. Mary’s. I just barely the other one was from the States. remember when we moved from St. Alice: Your father was from the States? Mary’s to Gagetown. Elizabeth: No, from Oromocto. Alice: How long did you live in Alice: And your mother? Gagetown? Elizabeth: I don’t know where they’re Elizabeth: For a long time. I remember really from. But after my grandfather when we moved from Gagetown. I died, my grandmother went back to think that was where my grandparents Maine, somewhere. lived, in Gagetown. I remember when

167 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 11.1: Elizabeth's grandmother and grandfather, Mornie Lolly Paul (sitting), and Steve Meuse (standing) (University of New Brunswick Archives, 3-54).

168 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

we moved down to Gagetown, my Elizabeth: Mary Augdon, I think she grandmother was already living down was from Norton. there. Then we moved back here Alice: Where is his father from? when I was six or seven. Elizabeth: I couldn’t tell you. We tried Alice: Here in Oromocto? to find out. Ben’s people came down Elizabeth: Here in Oromocto. a couple of Alice: How was life here, when you weeks ago. I have papers with names on were growing up? there, but we haven’t got around to it Elizabeth: Well, it was real good. The yet. We have an invitation to a gather- reason we moved from Gagetown, ing with those people on the fourth of my father used to work in the mill August. Some where in Maine. They and he fell off the board pile. Then he were down about two or three weeks hurt his arm and his elbow. ago. Alice: What did he do at the mill? Alice: How many children did you Elizabeth: He was piling lumber. have? Alice: What did your mother do? Elizabeth: I had twelve. Elizabeth: She stayed home with us. Alice: The people on the Oromocto Alice: How many of you were there? reserve, when you were growing up, Elizabeth: There was me, Steve and what did they do for entertainment? Robert. There was three of us. And Elizabeth: A lot of them made baskets, then when we came up here, there like on Ben’s side [referring to his was Pete and Jessie. I think two of family]. But on my side, my father them were born here in Oromocto and used to work on a farm across the two of them in Gagetown. river. I remember, that’s where he Alice: When you were growing up, do worked. And Ben’s parents, they you remember anyone making bas- always made baskets, ax handles, kets? hammer handles. And some of those Elizabeth: The only people I remember men—when Margaret Polchies, when making baskets are Ben’s grandpar- she left, her house was condemned. ents. So she moved back down the hill Alice: Ben is your husband? with her mother and father. And then Elizabeth: Solomon Paul and Sarah those men—this big house, here Paul, those were his grandparents. where Gloria lives now [her daugh- Alice: Who were his parents? ter], there was a big big house there. Elizabeth: Who? Auntie Margaret, her house. That’s Alice: Ben. where they used to cut pulp. Elizabeth: Ben’s parents is John Paul Alice: A lot of the people that were here [Suwahsin] and his mother Mary before, moved back to Kingsclear? Augdon. Elizabeth: Yes. I remember that time. Alice: Where were they from? Alice: Tell me about it.

169 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 11.2: Ben's grandmother, Sarah "Selapic" Sacobie, 1894. (University of New Brunswick Archives, 74-17358).

Elizabeth: That time when we were And then in September, then we picking fiddleheads in the springtime. move back on the reserve. That was And then everybody, after we picked good fun. fiddleheads, and then we go farther Alice: Do you know anything about down Maugerville. We would be those islands? there all summer long and our hus- Elizabeth: That was where we used to bands will be working in the farms. live.

170 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 11.3: From left back; Benjamin Paul, husband of Elizabeth Paul, Alfred Neil Polchies; middle row left to right; Richard Gilbert (Robert) Polchies, Beatrice Paul (wife of John Sabattis), daughter of Johnny Paul, and Leona Paul; Front; Imalda Paul, ca. 1940 (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1906).

Alice: What island were you on? Jemseg? Elizabeth: Gilbert’s Island. Elizabeth: We haven’t heard anything Alice: There is Indian Point, Grimross about Jemseg, until they started Island. working there. The only time I re- Elizabeth: I don’t know about them. I member is when we used to go down don’t even know where they are. there in 1947 and 1948. We used to Alice: Do you know anything about camp on that Gilbert’s Island and

171 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Burpee’s Landing. I don’t remember Elizabeth: Just here, on this reserve. anyone else. Then in 1948-49, everybody moved Alice: Do you know about Brown’s back. Flat? Alice: From Kingsclear? Elizabeth: No, I don’t. The only time, Elizabeth: From Kingsclear. there was about six families that go Alice: But a lot of them stayed. When I fiddleheading. There was Levi spoke to people from Kingsclear, they Sabattis, Noel Paul, Charlie Sark and are originally from Oromocto. us. I guess there was only four fami- Elizabeth: We used to live, they weren’t lies. We would be down there until very big houses. And the floors were September. bare and it took half a day to clean Alice: You stay there all summer? the floors. There was no covering on Elizabeth: All summer. them and not only the kitchen and the Alice: You just go there and spend the hallway and then there was the up- summer? stairs. Elizabeth: The husbands work in the Alice: After you got married to Ben, farms. Yes. We used to do that every what did you do, like in the evenings? spring. A lot of people used to do that. Elizabeth: Played cards. That’s all we After fiddlesheads everybody go would do, play cards. Summertime, down. every Sunday we played cards. In the Alice: Just like at home, we used to go wintertime, Saturdays and Sundays, to Savage Island. Have you ever been we played cards. And during Lent, we there? only played on Sunday nights be- Elizabeth: No. cause a lot of people said Sunday is Alice: How many families moved from not lent. here? The people in Kingsclear? Alice: Were Indians religious back then? Elizabeth: There weren’t that many Elizabeth: Yes. Sometimes the men people back then in 1947. The ones would join a ball team with the white that didn’t move was John Brooks, men. So we travelled in the summer- Maude’s grandfather. John Sacobie time, because our husbands were moved up there for a while, he didn’t picked to play ball or hockey with the like it and he came back. And then white men. Frank Atwin, he stayed. Ben’s father, Alice: Did you have dances? In some- he moved up there and then he moved one’s home? back. There was only three families Elizabeth: The only dances they had back in 1947 and everybody moved was around the sixth of January. You back up. There was Ben’s father and know where that old band hall is now, John Brooks and John Sacobie. There they were still using that, until all the was just the three families down here. kids went to the white schools. Alice: Just here, on this reserve? Alice: Okay, on the sixth of January that

172 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

was ‘Old Christmas’ right? Elizabeth: They’ll crown them and they Elizabeth: That was old fashioned had Indian music playing there too. Christmas. Tom Nash was one who played the Alice: How did you celebrate that? violin. And Ceclawew, not Ceclawew, Elizabeth: We’d celebrate that. but his brother, Ahtuwen. His name Monique, Maudie’s mother, and was Anthony. They would be playing Margaret, they made cakes. Monique the music, no fights, everything went would make one cake and Margaret smooth. would make one cake, molasses cake Alice: Did Charlie Sark play anything? and white cake. They put beans and Elizabeth: Charlie wasn’t even born buttons in them cakes. Whoever ate then. the white cake, that’s the Queen. And Alice: Old Charlie Sark? whoever ate the molasses cake, will Elizabeth: He used to come over to the be the King. And then they crown band hall. And then after the reserve them. That was good fun. got bigger, they didn’t want to do it Alice: So what happens after that? anymore. Elizabeth: The King and the Queen will Alice: What happened when a person pick their choices, what to do for the died on reserve, what kind of a cer- rest of the summer and until next emony took place? Or if there was January. any? Alice: What kind of things? Elizabeth: All they did was stay awake, Elizabeth: They will say, we’re going to that’s all they do around here. do this for the rest of week. For Alice: How did they help the family twelve months. Like dances, in the out? band hall and dance every two weeks. Elizabeth: They usually take two bas- They’ll do that every two weeks. kets around, from housed to house. Until in a years time. And this was how they got the help. Alice: Where or who made these cos- Alice: I know they gathered food, and tumes? some still do it sometimes. Elizabeth: They’d make them. They Elizabeth: They hardly do, really, didn’t have costumes, but they had anymore. hats and they would decorate them. Alice: Yes, they go to the funeral homes Alice: Who made them? now, eh. But I guess back then, when Elizabeth: Monique and Margaret. No they gathered food to help the family costumes that time. Then we will out. have a lunch at the old band hall. Elizabeth: And everybody can’t afford Alice: So the King and Queen decided it, really, because a lot of them don’t what goes on for the next year? Then work. But a lot of them, they can give they pick out what they can spare. somebody else? Alice: How about when people got sick,

173 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

and they couldn’t fend for them- Elizabeth: Any kind of glass you see selves? around here on the windows. They Elizabeth: Oh, that was easy, they could had to shape them and smooth your get anybody to town, take them up by ax handle or hammer handle, pick ax car. handle. They smooth the glass, then Alice: No, I mean, if he was home, sick, they smooth the wood. I used to like how did people help his family? to watch them. Especially when they Elizabeth: Well, they just have to go said, come on over and get your without. suhpin, a great big cup with handle on Alice: They didn’t help them with food? it. You have to pour water on that Elizabeth: Not that I remember. stone and then turn the wheel on. Alice: What about Ben’s family, Ben’s When they do the drawknife and mom and dad. Do you remember if jackknife, they have to sharpen it, and anybody ever then you have to pour water on that make birch bark canoes down here? stone. And then a crank and have to Elizabeth: Not that I remember. In them crank it real slow, until that stone is days, a lot of the men working in the all wet. Then sharpen drawknife and woods cutting pulp and logs, that’s crooked knife and jackknife. where they made their money. Alice: What about ash, where did they Alice: Was it your grandparents that get the ash? made baskets or Ben’s? Elizabeth: I don’t know, but they used to Elizabeth: No, Ben’s grandparents. take the boat and go down the river or Alice: What did they use for tools when across the river. They knew where they made baskets? exactly where to get their ash. Elizabeth: They only use a crooked Alice: Who pounded the ash? knife, that’s all I remember. Espe- Elizabeth: The old fellow. Whoever cially Ben’s grandfather he used to made the baskets, they pounded the fish salmon, shad and gaspereau, ash. It took a whole day. They would down the shore here. That was good get this great big tub, great big galva- fishing down there, along the shore. nized tub. They would have two or Alice: Do you remember them using three of them and they soak their ash. any kind of tool to shave ax handles? And then old Grandmother will have Did they use glass or (pause) these little pots going—shaped like a Elizabeth: Glass and a drawing knife. little mixing bowl, but they are galva- And they had this little horse, where nized. She’ll have them four little they put that ax handle on the side. pots going on top the stove and put And they use the draw knife and one dye. And then after that dye finished side a stone, where they sharpen their (pause) crooked knife, jackknife and glass. Alice: Where did they get the dye and Alice: What kind of glass did they use? what kind of dye was it?

174 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Elizabeth: I don’t know what kind of worked together and sold baskets. dye was it, but I know they used to Alice: When you got married, pihce (a dye the ash. long time ago), do you remember, Alice: What colours? was marriages ever arranged for Elizabeth: Pink, blue, yellow and red. people? You should see them when they make Elizabeth: No. the fancy baskets at Christmastime. Alice: No? Because they used to make a whole Elizabeth: No, neket nil kisi nipwion (at bunch of baskets and them ax han- that time when I got married), we just dles, hammer handles. tell the priest, tell the parents. Tell the Alice: What did they do with the bas- priest, we’re going to get married. In kets? them days, we just walk up to the Elizabeth: They would go and sell them. church at the top of, yat toke ehtutek Well, Ben’s parents, they’d go down crossing (where the crossing is now to Saint John. And they fill the market located). The crossing where the mall up, down Saint John. In them days, is, this is where there was a big, nice kahus yot pomyehpun (train went by path to go to the church. Everybody here) all the time. And they get on don’t go to the highway, we’ll take this train and sell their baskets in that short cut to go to church. From town. there, you go right straight up. Alice: Did a lot of trade take place for In them days, you don’t miss church. food? Well, after my parents died, I went to Elizabeth: Yeah, around here, yes. That live with Ben’s grandparents, we was fun, you go with them and help don’t miss church. Every Sunday we them taking the baskets. They’ll make walked, and then we’ll go like in July, baskets, like this time of the year, and we’ll go up Kingsclear, St. Anne’s. As they’ll save them for in the fall time. long as I can remember Shawnee, I And then after they finish selling go there all the time. Even after I got them, Lekew (poor things), everybody married and then the old lady said, was saving money. Everything was come on, you better go up too, you cheap them days, not like now. And got to go to St. Anne’s. then old Grammy will, and our Alice: It’s nice up there. Grandfather will make their baskets Elizabeth: It’s nice up there, but in them until Christmastime. And at days, it’s not as good as like now. Christmastime, they’ll take them up Everything changed, everything to Fredericton, in markets somewhere changed, everybody changed all over. up there. But that was the worst one, when they Alice: Who made the fancy baskets? moved us up Kingsclear. And they Elizabeth: Grandmother and Auntie used to give those houses in Ripples Makolit (Margaret), all three of them and some of those houses,

175 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

tehpineswewopnul (they had bed bugs Indian kids too. I’ll have to dig for in them). But we never had bed bugs that sometime and show it to you. in our house. But a lot of people END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE talked about it. Bed bugs. That was TAPE ONE SIDE TWO Whalen ole kehte smotwhit (trying to Alice: They used to rent the band hall be smart). He don’t get lumber, but for? the cheapest way, he’d do. And I Elizabeth: They used to rent the band don’t know how they got those hall, the white people to use that houses. I can’t remember that one. In school house. them days, when we got those houses Alice: For what? up there, we had to lug our water Elizabeth: For kids. about a half mile. From that old Alice: For their children? reserve to the reserve on the other Elizabeth: For the white children. side. From here to where that store is, Alice: How long did that go on? hard in wintertime. Elizabeth: Oh God, that must have went Alice: What year did you start getting on for about three years. Three or electricity? four years, yeah. And then top it off , Elizabeth: We got married in forty- after, a few years back—it was just seven. I got married in forty-six, right after we moved. Well, we forty-seven, forty-eight. I think we moved here in 1956, about fifty- were the only ones who got that seven, fifty-eight. Ben told me one electricity up here. I think it was in day, ehtutlekwhapitek (it was so hot). 1952 when I had Mary, yes 1952. But He told me to get fresh water at John we had telephone all along. Tel- Coon’s place, used to live here be- ephone was different. I remember cause they had these wells around when we first moved up here in 1956, them three houses. There’s one, two, fifty-seven, fifty-eight, that’s when three wells, because we all shared we got telephone. No electricity or them wells. So anyway, I came back, nothing. And then we used to have went and got the water. Ben said, wells on the reserve. We used to have lihth toke ti wolsonwik ehta ( make three at the band hall, as along as I some tea now, and make it good and remember, that’s the only place. They strong). So I made him tea. After a had electricity in that band hall. while he was in the living room and Because white people used to rent he said, kisahlta kisahciw ti (tea must that for the kids, before they got those be ready now). And I said, yes. Well few school houses in Oromocto, just cikah ‘suknimwin (pour me a cup), a before the army set in. Because white great big cup. I was watching the tea people used to use that band hall. I while I was pouring it. After I made got a picture here somewhere about it, the tea looked just like grease, and that band hall and a whole bunch of I put milk and sugar in it. I told Ben,

176 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

mimpeqit yot ti (this tea has grease in only thing they used to do was hunt it). He said, ‘knutmin kil ehpit (you ducks and muskrats. And after a are silly, woman), just get me the tea. while, I was getting squeamish of the So I took the cup to him and he drank muskrat [said in Maliseet], because the tea and nit yahqow pemiputuwet there is too much in the water. My (he blew it out). And I said, what’s grandchildren [said in Maliseet], the matter with you. He said, some- when I used to watch them or they thing’s in that tea. He told me taste would come over to my house. And I that tea. I said, Ben, that tea taste like would have muskrat in the dish pan oil. He said, it’s your pail, clean that ready to clean it or ready to cook it. pail. I said, Ben, I clean that pail And they all make fun of them. And every other day. He said, clean it and they would look at the muskrats and go get more water. So, I cleaned the they’d ask that must be some kind of pail again and went back to John’s rat. Is it, but I wouldn’t tell them and got water. So I told John and anything [said in Maliseet]. I Stella, this water tastes awful. No- wouldn’t eat it, a few of them like it. body believed me. Alice: You don’t eat muskrat [said in Alice: So what happened to the oil in Maliseet]? the water? Elizabeth: I used to eat it, but I just Elizabeth: It just stopped and nobody don’t eat it [said in Maliseet]. ever did anything. They never did Alice: I like it, I haven’t had any for a nothing, they just closed them pumps long time. out, take them pumps out. I told Ben, Elizabeth: Charlie Paul, Charlie Paul if I didn’t taste that water that soon, gave me a couple, four. I don’t know that water would have killed us. where he got them. I think he got Alice: Yes. them from Gagetown [said in Mali- Elizabeth: And now they are working on seet]. My grandchildren said, it’s that in the Base [Base Gagetown]. some kind of a rat Grammy. I That oil spill in there somewhere, a wouldn’t eat that, you know rats eat lot of them don’t use tap water. We everything. And they used to tell me, use it, but not that much. Grammy, that water rat is the same We get our water from Ridgewood. way. I bet they eat anything, what Alice: When you were growing up, do they find along the shore. I got you remember anyone working with squeamish and I stopped eating them. moose hide or deer hide? Sometimes, I will be cooking them, Elizabeth: No, mata wen kotunkew cook them real slow, and early, so it (nobody hunted) in them days. will cook Alice: No. Alice: You’ve been here all your life, Elizabeth: No, they didn’t start doing pretty well. You must know all the that until the next generation. The Chiefs.

177 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Elizabeth: Yes. Alice: So did John Coon knew a lot Alice: John Atwin? about Indian medicine? Elizabeth: John Atwin used to be Chief Elizabeth: Yes, John Coon knew about here. I don’t know how he got that, Indian medicine. what do you call that meat, buffalo Alice: Do you know anything about meat. Buffalo meat, did you ever taste Indian medicine? that? I don’t know where he got that, Elizabeth: No. he was giving it away [said in Mali- Alice: Not a thing? seet]. Whalen, I think, brought that. Elizabeth: He used to send it to Ben. And he said everybody has to taste Ben believed in it. He used to get that to see if they like it. They could cured with that medicine. get some more, a lot of them got it Alice: What did he used to send Ben? and a lot of them threw it away. Then Elizabeth: Shawnee, I don’t know what he’ll go around to see if you liked it. it is. Alice: Whalen was bad [said in Mali- Alice: What was it for? seet]? Elizabeth: For cold, but I know it was Elizabeth: Yes, he was bad. some kind of bark. Alice: Christina is a sister to Annie Alice: Yeah, it was. I think it was Saulis? Kiwhosuwasq or Calamus root. Elizabeth: Annie Saulis, Clarence and Elizabeth: And my son Donald, he used Viola. to believe in it. He used to believe Alice: Yes. that the green leaves that are on the Elizabeth: There are only two of them ground—and they are very sharp. left now, Viola and Clarence. They’re nice and big and, I don’t That water I was telling you, nobody know what you call them. He used to knew and now they are working on it believe in that Calamus root and in the Base. Oil spill is coming from some kind of bark, he used to steep there, somewhere. Last fall, I think, that. One time, we were still living or early in the spring, there was this over there, next door, after Ben died. great big tester going around from And I caught a cold that time, this housed to house. From Doreen was just before Christmas. Oh, I was Green’s and then Band Hall. And then sick. My son Donald brought me it goes all the way around on reserve, some Indian medicine. Shawn, I testing that water. I don’t know, we couldn’t keep it down. And I always never heard any results yet, but they like them. So when Jack came, it was are still working on it. And then they late in the afternoon, around about were saying, those three houses over 6:30 or 7:00 pm. He brought a great there, they might have to move them big bottle. He said, if you feel like somewhere. I don’t know where they drinking tea or if you want to drink are going to move them. water, he said, drink this instead. So

178 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

next morning, one of my grandsons go up that Moccasin Lane, they call it came, and I was so thirsty. So I drank now. The very first house, that log the Indian medicine. I just drank, it house, when you go to that road. would come up all the time, it Alice: The reserve has grown quite a bit, wouldn’t agree with me at all. hasn’t it? Alice: I tried it one time and I couldn’t Elizabeth: I guess. I guess, as long as I drink it. can remember. When we used to live Elizabeth: …I am related to all the down the hill, on the other side of the Nashes. Every one of them down tracks, there was Ben’s father and Burton, out Geary. A lot of them live Ben’s grandparents. Charlie Sark and out Geary, three or four families out Vincent Sacobie and John Sacobie. Geary. The Nashes, out this side, all There were only five houses down of them. My aunt lived with a Nash. there. Well nobody can live down Alice: Who was your aunt? there anyway, because that land still Elizabeth: What was her name, it was belongs to us on the other side of the Lena Sabattis, that was my father’s tracks. sister. Alice: The reserve has grown quite a bit Alice: So she must have married Jim since 1947 or 1946. Nash. So they would be the mother Elizabeth: 1946, 47, and 48, but that and father to time when they moved us to Bobby Nash and Bill Nash, Viola, Kingsclear. Evelyn. Alice: Well what year would have been, Elizabeth: You know Evelyn? the first family that was here in Alice: I met her once. I don’t really Oromocto? know her. Elizabeth: But that time they moved us Elizabeth: Tom Nash, his children, his to Kingsclear in 1947. God damn daughters and his sons live down army trucks. Army trucks were going Burton. That’s where Tom Nash used around the reserve and they said, to live and then some of his sons and come on, you’re moving, you’re daughters live in Geary. moving up Kingsclear. Alice: Did any of the Nashes live here Alice: You never had any say over that? on the reserve? Elizabeth: No. Well, they got those Elizabeth: No. Yes, Warren. Well his houses up there. After they got those mother was living on reserve too. houses up there, if any one of these Because Christina married Lena’s families stayed here. If they would son. George Nash, that was Lena’s have moved, we would have lost all son and Jim Nash. Christina live over this land. Because the army was there, she was even off the reserve for speaking about this reserve and they a while. And then not too long ago, were going to take over it. See, them she used to live up the hill, where you days there was Ben’s father, John

179 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Brooks and John Sacobie. Them was know about them. the ones, that didn’t move. But if all Elizabeth: How is your mother related them families moved up Kingsclear, to Benwa? we’d lose everything. We would be Alice: Grandfather I think, I am not up Kingsclear right now. There was sure. I’ll have to talk to my mother, I nothing they can do. They couldn’t guess. force them. They didn’t want to Elizabeth: When I first moved to St. move, they stayed right here. Ben’s Mary’s, after my father died, I think father moved up for a while. He they were still living then. Because didn’t last for two weeks, then he when I moved, I didn’t last very long. moved back. I wasn’t there, not even a year and Alice: I’ve spoken to a couple of people then I wanted to come back too. So I up in Kingsclear and they say came back, because, I think the ‘Kiwaceh (lonely for this place). reason I wanted to come back was I Elizabeth: We moved up there just was eleven when Ben told me we before I had my—how many kids did were going to get married. When I get I have, just before I moved up there? older, he said, you can do whatever There was Donald, Gloria and you want to do and I can do whatever Terrance. Terrance was born in 1950, I want to do. He was right. See, when because those were the only two kids I came back still, still, we didn’t hang I had. Gloria and Donald, because around each other. Until I was four- Donald spent a lot of time with his teen, then I got married when I was grandparents. He comes every now fifteen. Him and Charlie Sark used to and then. Every two weeks he would argue… Charlie had asthma. Him and come up and visit us. And then fi- Annie Bear got married. Her husband nally, when I had Mary, I had Mary was in the army and she got divorced and we moved back. After I had and then Charlie and Annie Bear got Mary, Timer’s father died. He died in married. Michael Joe Paul [Joe water, he drowned, that’s when we Shaker] was her first husband. I don’t moved back. know if their sons moved back to Alice: How are you related to my England. We used to go where he mother? lived. He used to live handy to the Elizabeth: Tina, her father and my reserve. He used to live off reserve, in mother are brother and sister. Charlie a big house. You know Elsie and and my mother are brother and sister. Berna, what are their names? What is Alice: Where does old Ben Brooks their father’s name? come into this? Alice: Tuedis Elizabeth: I really don’t remember Ben Elizabeth: That’s it, Tuedis is Joe Shak- Brooks. er’s brother and Minnie from Alice: Ben and Myna? Kingsclear. Elizabeth: I don’t know. I don’t really END OF TAPE 180 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

12. Indian Agent

CHARLIE BEAR NEQOTKUK/ TOBIQUE FIRST NATION

…we didn’t have no office here, just the Indian Agent up town and his name was Norval McPhail… He was bad. Tough guy to get anything from. He let you cut lumber, but he wouldn’t give you the full amount. You always had to trade it for material, like for electric wiring or for insulation or windows for your house. Because he owned a hardware store at the time.

Alice: Charlie, you are better known as Alice: What did your mother and father Pokan on this reserve. do? Charlie: Yes. Charlie: Well, mostly baskets, all the Alice: A lot of people know you by that years I remember. And we done the name. Talk Indian if you want to. potato harvest. That’s about all they Were you born and raised here in done. Tobique? Alice: What kind of baskets did they Charlie: I wasn’t born here, but I was make? raised here. I was born in Westfield, Charlie: They made all kinds, I’m too Maine. young to remember what type. The Alice: Who are your mom and dad? last part I remember was potato Charlie: Her maiden name was Annie baskets for local farmers. We used to Saulis, from Kingsclear and my father move around, like Mars Hill, was Henry Bear, from here, Tobique Westfield, Easton and all them, over Reserve. across. Alice: Your mother was Annie Saulis, Alice: How old were you when you that’s not the one that just died re- moved to Tobique? cently is it? Charlie: I was probably one or two. Charlie: No. She died in ‘76. Alice: And you have been here since? Charlie: Yes.

181 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: Could you tell me a bit about you Alice: Are you and John [Bear] the only growing up on Tobique Reserve? ones that make baskets? How things were? Charlie: Well, Fred [Bear] used to, but Charlie: Like what? he retired back a couple of years ago. Alice: Well, the reserve didn’t look like He worked with Tobique Works. I this back then. guess he’s got enough money saved Charlie: Well, I guess not. I don’t know aside, like for him, until he gets his where to start really or what to ex- retirement next year. He doesn’t want plain. to work now [said in Maliseet]. He Alice: Go back to when you were grow- used to be a good pounder, made ing up, or what your mom and dad baskets of all kinds. Fancy work passed on to you about basket mak- mostly. He helped me some and John ing, or when John made baskets. did. He used to pound ash for us, Charlie: Well, they didn’t really pass it make bottoms, and nailing. on. I used to help my mother, like Alice: It doesn’t look hard to make a weaving a little bit, that’s how I basket? learned. Later on, back in 1974, I Charlie: Not really. You could probably started off on my own. But we had learn in a day, just the rough idea of hard times back then, no running how it is. water in the house. No toilets, just Alice: Years ago, when I was up this outhouses. Get welfare, so we mostly way, Roy, your brother, made baskets, had to survive on potato baskets. potato baskets. Alice: Did they trade them or did they Charlie: I used to work for him at the sell them? time. But like I say, 25 years is a long Charlie: A lot of times, I think they time away. I used to work for him and traded them and then they had local in time, he turned around and worked buyers from Perth-Andover, like for me in the end. When I started he Charlie Johnston. I don’t know what used to drink a lot. He would work that Mockler’s name was at that time, for maybe a couple bottles of wine or but they used to come up with a big rubbing alcohol, whatever he could truck. And they used to buy from my get a hold of. He’d hawk his food for father, Kunuhsi (Peter Perley), Spike alcohol as well. [Donald Moulton] and all them other Alice: How many houses were here at guys that made baskets here as well. the time you were growing up? I Alice: How many of there were in your remember the houses down by the family? water. Charlie: Fourteen. Charlie: Do you mean on that one Alice: Out of the fourteen, how many of street? Well, eight next to the river you are still living? and there was four around that corner, Charlie: Today, I think there are six. and two before the church. I don’t

182 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 12.1: Charlie and John making baskets (photo by David Keenlyside, Canadian Museum of Civilization).

know exactly how many there was on go across on that log there and the the reserve at that time. When you water was so fast [said in Maliseet]. were around here, that was 25 years We started off over there, we were ago. poor. All we had was molasses and Alice: Before you started making bas- oatmeal for about a week, until he kets, living with your mother and started making baskets and he got father, did you have a hard time? some money. He bought a little food Charlie: Oh yes. He drank a lot [said in anyway, and some wine. Maliseet]. When he did sell baskets, Alice: It must have been hard for your he used to take the money and drink it mother and father to feed fourteen? up. Or he would end up losing it Charlie: Well, there wasn’t that many at partying somewhere. When he came the time. Most of my sisters were back, there would be no food [said in married already and Roy got married Maliseet]. One time we moved to back in the ‘60’s. John got married. . We moved there Fred is the only one in our family that early in the spring and it flooded the didn’t get married. I think he was a brook and all of our stuff went float- home boy. Then after my mother ing [said in Maliseet]. And we had to died, he started going to church. I

183 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 12.2: Charlie and John making baskets (photo by David Keenlyside, Canadian Museum of Civilization).

guess he was trying to be good after know what ever happened to that. I all those years [said in Maliseet]. think Dale Saulis has that in Alice: Do you remember anyone mak- Fredericton. Back then, he had his ing birch bark canoes on this reserve? own workshop. I think he had mostly Charlie: No, I don’t. The only ones that all his hand tools to work with. I remember are the ones that made Alice: You have tools that you work baskets. William Saulis made his own with? boat, but it wasn’t birch bark, that Charlie: Yes. I have draw knife, crooked was made out of hard wood. I don’t knife, saw and that’s about it, I guess.

184 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 12.3: Charlie and John making baskets (photo by David Keenlyside, Canadian Museum of Civilization).

Alice: What’s the draw knife for? handles are forty inches long and then Charlie: Draw knife, it’s to whittle out the standards are average size. And your handles inside and outside rims your weavers are longer, they are for the baskets. about seven feet at the most. The Alice: What’s the crooked knife for? hand saw is only to mark your han- Charlie: It’s a splitter. Like you have to dles. The gauge is like for when you split the wood and quarter them. want to do fancy work. We’ve got Make four pieces out of one; two for quarter inch and half inch and three outside and two for inside. You’re quarters. And after that it’s free hand.

185 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

A lot of times, you try to guess how years, John taught. John Bear and wide they are and they turn out good. Johnny LaPorte, they taught some Alice: Have you ever taught anyone to women. Monique Nicholas and make baskets? Debbie Moulton and I can’t remem- Charlie: No. I wanted to, but where I ber Dick-a-Doo’s [Richard Moulton] work for the band, they wouldn’t wife there, but there’s two white bring a program up here. And most of people there. my kids—I asked one there yesterday. Alice: Did you ever pick fiddleheads? And again after John quit, I guess Charlie: I tried it one day in Plaster they’re not interested. Their only Rock, but it was too late in the sea- interested in how much money I son. We went towards the last end of make, that’s it. I remember when I it me and my uncle Edmond Saulis, first started making baskets, they his name was Poiah. He married a were only three dollars apiece. But woman from Kingsclear, Elizabeth we were making good money at the Paul, I think. time, also because money was worth Alice: I remember them. more than today. Charlie: We didn’t do very good yearly. Alice: What do you sell baskets for I just pick enough to eat here. I don’t today? keep them. Just like salmon, he tried Charlie: Right now we get twenty to get me a fish, but I just like a taste dollars. of it. I hate to clean it and store it in Alice: How many baskets can you make the fridge with my other meat. in a day? Alice: So you don’t fish either? Charlie: In a day, one time I made Charlie: No, I don’t. I used to trout fish. twelve, completed. Like I cut the The last six, seven years I just lost stuff, made bottoms, wove them and interest. turned them over like and finished Alice: Where would you pick them. And I made handles, inside and fiddleheads here? outside rims and nail them. It’s fun, Charlie: Well, usually we go to Tilley especially when you work alone, you Brook, across the river where Sam can do a lot more. Goose [Abner Paul} lives. And then Alice: Are you the only one that makes sometimes we go Westfied, Mars baskets on this reserve? Hill. And then there’s a lot of them Charlie: No, there is Spike Moulton, that go to Plaster Rock, Riley Brook Molly does and Magoo [Melinda or Arthurette. Moulton] Gladys [Paul] and Christine Alice: Where do they fish here? Gagnon and there are a lot of other Charlie: Lake. girls. There are about five or six other Alice: Years ago, when they fished here, women, they do the fancy work. They when you were growing up, did had courses here the last two or three anybody spear fish?

186 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Charlie: I don’t think so. It was mostly for insulation or windows for your fly fishing. I think they had nets, but house. Because he owned a hardware the only ones that were hand held. store at the time. They brought that in about fifteen Alice: When you made the baskets, did years ago, netting with a gill net, or you also make ax handles? whatever they’re called. Charlie: No, I didn’t. It’s easier to buy Alice: What about hunting? them then to make them. Because if Charlie: Hunting, I used to do a lot of you break one today and made one hunting here as well. And you hardly today, you would have to wait about ever see anyone hunting with a bow, four days for it to dry. My father used it’s always a gun. to make them years ago and William Alice: Nobody hunts with a bow? Sappier, Albert Paul and a few others. Charlie: No, there may be a few that Alice: What kind of tools did they use does it now. But they cheat, they use for their ax handles? that cross bow. Charlie: I think it was white ash or rock Alice: Aren’t they illegal those things? maple. Charlie: Yes they are. But they do it on Alice: What did they used to smooth the sly. them out? Alice: Welfare, was it much? Charlie: They used glass sometimes. Charlie: Not really. For a family of six, Alice: What kind of glass? at the time when I was living with my Charlie: Like they would break a bottle mother, I think we were getting and scrape it with that. twenty-three dollars every two weeks. Alice: What about barrel hoops, did they I think or it could have been once a make them? month also. That lasted us pretty Charlie: Barrel hoops? Yes. The only good, that was after my father died. I one I remember was Roy Bear and remember we got our food from Baboo [Peter Sappier]. Well Tarzen Mildred’s [Paul] [said in Maliseet]. [Loomis Sappier] was the boss for And at the end she used to give us Roy there at the time. He would credit until welfare came in. Because tlikonikahwul (the process of splitting it came from Fredericton, we didn’t ash to procure hoops). Roy would have no office here, just the Indian tlakqostun (the process of fitting a Agent up town and his name was hoop around the inside edge of a Norval McPhail. basket). They used to make pretty Alice: How was he? good, maybe six or seven hundred a Charlie: He was bad. Tough guy to get week. anything from. He let you cut lumber, Alice: What was the going price for but he wouldn’t give you the full them back then? amount. You always had to trade it Charlie: I think they were about twenty- for material, like for electric wiring or five cents apiece.

187 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: What would they sell for today? Charlie: He’s name is Maynard LaPorte. Charlie: Right now, if I made them out He was born in Caribou. I think he’s of ash, it would be the same thing. moved over here the last 15 years. I Like potato baskets, you got to quar- think he’s about fifty years old, but he ter your stuff of course. There’s no was brought up in Caribou, Wood- waste today. Like if someone made land, New Sweden, in all them areas barrel hoops, I think you would sell in Caribou way. And his parents made them for a dollar fifty to two dollars baskets as well. apiece. Alice: What kind of tool do you use for Alice: Do you ever use colour on your pounding ash? baskets? Charlie: Just, thing I use is drawing Charlie: No. But John made some there knife. Water and ashes to mark your a few years ago. He used to dye his ash, so you will know where you ash. already pounded your ash. So you Alice: What kind of dye did he use? don’t lose your (pause) Charlie: I don’t know that. Leslie Perley Alice: How long does a stick have to be had the Arts and Crafts building here, pounded? like he worked for the Union, I think. Charlie: It all depends on the person, if And he brought a program and he they have good wind, you can take up used to give them dye. You had to to 45 minutes or two hours. It takes boil the water and put that dye in. It me a little longer, because my wind was powder when they brought it. isn’t that good. And you use an ax for There was red, blue and yellow, they pounding, that has a big back to it and were the most colours that were it don’t have to be sharp. And you use popular. a drawing knife, if the bark sticks, Alice: When they made fancy baskets, you have to cut that. And then you what kind did they make? pound so much and take, you take off Charlie: Well, they made comb baskets, about an inch each time, when you fishing baskets, button baskets and strip the ash. there are a few others. And they used Alice: Do you have to keep doing that, sweet grass sometimes, like around pounding the ash right down to the covers and around the rim. They nothing? hand bind them, they don’t nail them Charlie: Oh, yes. It all depends on how or nothing. good the ash is. If it’s too thick, you Alice: Is that the best way to make a can’t use it for anything. Well, some basket? To bind them? people they can, but for us if it’s too Charlie: For them, I suppose. Instead of thick, we just throw it to one side. having somebody hoop them, all you Sometimes I’ll split it once anyway need is two strips of solid ash. for potato basket bottoms, but for Alice: That guy downstairs that is your weavers, you don’t want them pounding ash, who is he? too thick. The baskets would be out 188 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

of shape. I could remember. I don’t remember Alice: When you make your baskets and when the old hall was there, just sell them, do they sell good? hardly remember it being there. Charlie: Well, right now, not so good. Either they burned it down or tore it There are only a few farmers we have down and made that new one, where left for potato harvesting, you know, that one is now. The school, I went to hand picking. We have about nine school back in the ‘50’s. Yes, I think people right now and then after the last time I went to school was in September, they won’t sell at all until 1957, then I got transferred to Perth next year again. for high school. When we first started, John, back in Alice: What kind of dances did they 1974, we used to make them year have? round. I think we made forty-nine Charlie: Just like any other dances, but hundred baskets one year. they had Pow Wows. And like St. Alice: That’s a lot. Anne’s, they used to celebrate that as Charlie: I know, well, Donald Saulis well. And have a field day and labour bought a lot. He got a loan from the day, they have another time here. bank, bought three thousand, I think. They used to have people coming in Alice: What did he do with them? from Old Town or Princeton or Charlie: He just stored them, he already Eastport. sold them in the summer. But after we Alice: Did they hold any square dances, got done with him, we still had to like for the old people? work and peddle. We took our baskets Charlie: Well, it was all mixed at the way down to Houlton, Jewel Brothers time, little bit of rock and roll, and Mars Hill, Hershal Smith bought waltzes and square dancing. But a lot and Brennan’s. And by the time today, what they all go for is what we’re done with them, it’s time for you see on TV. the local farmers to start buying them Alice: Do you remember any of the around here. There was big demand older Indians playing musical instru- for them back then. There wasn’t just ments? us, there were three or four other Charlie: Oh, yes. There was George families at the time making baskets. Perley, he used to play the saxophone. But now I think Spike [Donald Pious [Perley] played an organ, Peter Moulton] makes a few. Right now Perley used to play the fiddle, it was they are mostly feather baskets and called the Perley Band at the time. fancy work. Because they were all brothers. Just Alice: What kind of activities did the like us now, there’s me, Boy[Anthony people do here? Did they have any Bear] Fred, John and Roy. We all dances? played instruments. Sally [Bear] Charlie: They used to have weekly played a little bit and our sister, but dances here at the time, as far back as she just lost it after she got older. And 189 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

I don’t know if they had an Indian and all them places back there. And drummer back then or… I don’t quite we came back through Woodstock, remember, but the only one left is we went right around the coast there. Pious. George and Freddie, Freddie It was enjoyable. died, he was the one that was living Alice: Are there any legends or stories in Houlton, Houlton Reserve. regarding Tobique itself? Alice: I wonder who taught these peo- Charlie: There has to be, but I don’t ple, like years ago, to play violin, remember any really. saxophone, they must have picked it Alice: I would have to speak to some- up themselves? one a little older? Charlie: I think, well, Kunuhsi [Peter Charlie: Probably, Sam Goose [Abner Perley] he played by note. Kunuhsi, Paul] or Pat Paul or Spike [Donald like he used to play them b-flat. Well, Moulton] and Molly [Mary Moulton]. it was all flats when they played in Alice: How long do you think, will you church as well. But for Pious, there I be forever making baskets? think it was mostly free hand. Or Charlie: Hopefully, as long as the potato someone would buy a book in a store, baskets are in demand. I’ll be making how to cord, I guess, by hand. I tried them another few more years. that once, I couldn’t teach myself. Alice: Where do you get your ash? You Alice: Well, some people can’t read. have quite a bit of it out there. Charlie: Well, I can read. Charlie: Right now, we get it from Fort Alice: I mean the music. Fairfield. We get it from this potato Charlie: When I think about it, it’s farmer that we used to work for Jim easier. The way the music sounded, Cohnen. We’ve been cutting there what you hear. It’s a lot easier for me now for three years. Like this sum- to learn on an organ. Just like the mer, we cut maybe around seventy- guitar. That’s how me and Boy five trees a year to make potato [Anthony Bear] learned. We used to baskets. steal John Bear’s guitar and Fred’s Alice: Do you get any ash right around fiddle, that’s how we learned. And this area here? after a while, for about a year, we got Charlie: No, there isn’t any here. Usu- better. Then we used to play for them ally the tops are dry on them and when they drank. Then we got into a somebody had already checked them band. We played in a band for about for grain. Like somebody scratched 15 years for Percy Ennis. Our band them. Usually they dry up and rot was called Night Hawks and we anyway. But for over there, you have played for dances. We went on TV, quite a selection. Pat Bear and Fred radio. Went on a tour for about four [Bear] used to make them. Pat Bear months. We started off in Grand Falls, was Patricksis and my brother, they went around to Restigouche, Tracadie used to cut ash over there and they

190 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

made baskets about fifteen years ago Alice: When women were having their or maybe a little longer. And that’s children, were they taken to a hospital where we’re cutting now. And then or were their children born at home or we cut behind the high school in Fort did they have a midwife to do all of Fairfield. this. Alice: Do you have to pay anything to Charlie: Well, my mother used to be a bring them across? midwife. I remember her delivering Charlie: No, usually they ask us, what’s two kids, was Carmel Ennis and the value. And we told them there is Carol Scott, at that time. And she was no value on it. Because we don’t the one that brought me into this know how much ash is worth, you’d world. But we did have a hospital have to use it up. Like when we first back then and we had sisters [nuns] get it, we don’t know how much operating it. we’re going to get out of it. But they Alice: It wasn’t on the reserve was it? just wanted to know if we had to buy Charlie: Yes. it. But we usually trade it for a potato Alice: What year would that have been? basket or sometimes a utility basket Charlie: It must have been in the early for garden use. forties or thirties. They just tore that Alice: Back then, do you remember building down last year. That big anything about marriages being white one that was there. Clifford arranged, what I Solomon lived there, that was our mean by that is (pause) hospital then. But I don’t remember Charlie: Traditional? who the doctor was at that time. They Alice: No, not traditional. Was anybody used to have to come from Perth. picked for you, like when you were Alice: There must have been a lot of growing up, did you have to marry a children born here. When someone certain girl. died did they have any traditional Charlie: No, not even when you got a ceremonies? woman pregnant. If she was going to Charlie: No. Just lately they have, a have your kid, nobody says you have Nation House it’s called. And they to marry her. It was you’re own reserved all that area and they have decision at the time I was growing up, three buried up there now. There’s or after I grew up I should say. I Roy and Juanita, and Kroontie [Tony never seen it. They used to say, they Bear] would take, they would take a horse Alice: Roy is your brother? wagon to Grand Falls. There used to Charlie: Yes. be a road there along the river, I Alice: Juanita Perley? guess, a long time ago, that’s how Charlie: Not Juanita, but Marjorie they travelled. Some of them got Perley. Juanita is the one doing the married in Grand Falls. ceremonies now. They’ll take them to

191 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

the church and they’ll take them up Charlie: I was born in ’44, but I don’t there for the last ceremonies. remember the first five, six years I Alice: Is it only for Indians? was living. It was after my father died Charlie: The only time a white person back in ’53, he drowned by the main goes there is if they bring supplies, reserve there. And after that we like a stove. started living pretty good, at the time. Alice: So is there a lot of traditional At least we had running water, televi- people on the Tobique Reserve? sion, refrigerator. At least nobody Charlie: I think so, if you get to talk to drank up all the money and we could them a lot. But myself, I don’t believe survive after that. it. I haven’t seen it. I don’t believe in Alice: Your father and mother when their medicine, that talking stick or they were bringing you guys up, the feather. I don’t really understand when they had food. I know they how it could cure anybody. I suppose were no fridges, how did they keep if you believe into it, it could cure the meat, the fish? you. Just like they were going to give Charlie: Well they, I don’t know. They, me some medicine for my back, they must have hung it up some- arthritis, but I don’t trust it. I might where, where it was cold. I don’t citnahqew (straighten up). remember what they’re called. I don’t Alice: Well this ends our interview and I remember how to pronounce it now. thank you. END OF TAPE

192 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

13. Enough for winter

PAT SACOBIE WELMOOKTUK/OROMOCTO FIRST NATION

They mixed that with water and salt. And they rubbed all that water and salt with it, all over that meat. So that the bugs or anything couldn’t get at it, because they didn’t like that stuff. That would keep them away. And whatever little cellar we had, we hang them downstairs. Corn was the same thing, we buy at the fall of the year all kinds of it. And then we skinned that all up and tie them at the ends. Maybe up stairs, dry them up for winter and we would have enough for winter.

Alice: Pat, were you born and brought Alice: How often? up here in Oromocto? Pat: Every week, not every day. Pat: Well, I was born in 1923, January Alice: What kind of baskets did they 30th. make? Alice: Who was you’re mother and Pat: Apple baskets, potato baskets, that’s father? about all they made and ax handles. Pat: Sadie and Andrew Sacobie. Alice: What kind of tools were used Alice: Could you tell me a little about when they made baskets? when you were growing up. About Pat: They used a drawknife for the Oromocto, what you could remember. hoops around the baskets, handles. Pat: Well, when I was old enough, when They got to use maple. I come out of school; I didn’t pay too Alice: What else did they use besides much attention to anything else when the drawknife? I was going to school, because it Pat: Crooked knife. would just ruin me. Want you to tell Alice: How were they made, back then, your stories about going home or the crooked knife? something. Pat: They had files about 12 inches long Alice: Did your mother and father make and they kept the handle right on it. baskets? And they made their own wooden Pat: Oh yes. handles, so they placed them in.

193 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: What else did they use? Was to you. glass used? Alice: In what way? Pat: Well, drawknife, shape all these Pat: … He [the agent] would go after handles and everything for the ax that and before that we had a consta- handles. ble here. Alice: To smooth the ax handle, what Alice: Who was that? kind of glass? Pat: Gabe Sacobie, that was my father’s Pat: If you break a glass or go pick them brother. He would come around early some place else. Glass from the and say that he was going around windows is what they used. every house on the reserve, to search Alice: Did they use any other kind of every house for whoever had a jug. glass, like bottle glass. He would tell the cops to look in Pat: No, bottle glass was no good, every housed to search. because I did a lot of that. Alice: Do you remember anyone that Alice: What did they do with the bas- had made birch bark canoes? kets? Pat: There is only one that I know, he Pat: They would go and sell them to the was from Devon. farmers. Alice: Who was that? Alice: How much did they get for them? Pat: Cehci Piyel Nihkul, that’s what they Pat: I wouldn’t know. Mostly for veg- called him. He was from Devon. etables, they didn’t have to use no They used to make them right down cash. They trade them with vegeta- here, with old Simon Paul. See, the bles. old people, they can work together Alice: Did you get welfare back then? good. Pat: No. Alice: Who was Simon Paul? Alice: When did you start getting wel- Pat: You might have known old Law- fare? rence Paul from Kingsclear, he mar- Pat: Who, them old people? ried my sister Mary. Alice: Well, back then. Alice: Did you do any fiddleheading? Pat: It was a dollar and a half a week. Pat: Quite a bit. A good way to make a Alice: From welfare? few dollars. Pat: Indian agent. Alice: Where did you fiddlehead? Alice: Who was he? Pat: Cat’s Island, Oromocto Island and Pat: Well, it could have been Mr. Middle Island. We used to camp out Griffith, that was the old, old days. when we went further. Ox Island, And he was a mean old devil. Gilbert’s Island, we moved right Alice: Do you remember Whalen? down. Pat: Yes, in Kingsclear. Wahant (devil). Alice: Were you ever on a house boat? Alice: He was bad? Pat: No, we used canoes. Pat: Mociku ( bad), he would sneak up Alice: You had to travel by canoe every

194 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 13.1: Alice Polchies and Pat's brother, John Sacobie, the son of Sadie and Andrew (Raccoon) Sacobie. (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1898).

where you went? people in Devon? Pat: Yes, any where there were no out Pat: Oh, yes. I don’t know about Dan boards. Then that is how come young Paul and Joe Paul. I don’t know fellows are whether they ever went fiddleheading lazy now, if they had outboards, they or not. I know Frank Paul and his won’t paddle. brother Pete. And Frank Sacobie, way Alice: Have you been on down that way, down below the old reserve, the one St. Mary’s? they call Polons. Pat: Up on those islands? Alice: So when they made their baskets, Alice: Yes. did they ever put colour on them? Pat: I had a chance to go there. Pat: Solomon Paul and his wife, they Alice: You must know quite a few would buy that dye, any colour they

195 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

want. time. They move way out to Alice: No one ever made homemade Portabello, that’s where you see all dye out of berries (pause) the birch trees about as big as a Pat: No they can’t, they had to buy it in barrel. packages. Alice: How did they get the birch bark, Alice: Do you know anything about what did they do with these trees? Indian Point? Pat: Sometimes they had to cut them Pat: No. I’ve never been there. down. Alice: What about Jemseg? Alice: Did they have to split them in Pat: Warren Nash took us down there, half? we were looking at where the people Pat: Oh, no. You just take a tree, accord- were working, what they’re looking ing to size for birch bark and they for we don’t know. strip that for so many feet. Maybe Alice: Were you ever there as a young four feet and maybe more, we don’t fellow? know. Pat: Ajemseg, no. As far as I went was Alice: What kind of wood did they use Oromocto Island, Middle Island. for the ribs? Alice: John Sacobie was your brother? Pat: Cedar, you soak them in hot, boil- Pat: Yes. ing water. Then you can bend them Alice: Did he ever tell you about Indian anyway you want. medicine, could you tell me some- Alice: How did they keep the birch bark thing about that? together? Pat: Well, there is all kinds of it out Pat: They used what they call pitch, they here. What he used to use, but I only bought that in stores. know one kind. Alice: What do you call that? Alice: What kind is that? Pat: Resin. I used to do that. I used to Pat: Hemlock, bark. get that when you go fiddleheading, if Alice: What was that used for? your skiff leaks. Go to the store and Pat: You cut it in small pieces, boil it get a couple pounds of that. Add it all and what else is mixed in it, I don’t up in a can, put a little oil or some- know. thing to make it better. Alice: Is that the same thing as Alice: Did anyone make fancy baskets? Kiwhosuwasq? Pat: Yes. Pat: No, that’s a different kind. Alice: Who? Alice: What’s Kiwhosuwasq? Pat: Simon Paul and his wife. Pat: Calamus root. Alice: What was his wife name? Alice: When they made birch bark Pat: Sarah Paul. The baskets look so canoes, how did they go about getting lovely. They would lug them from this birch bark? their house. We used to haul them Pat: They usually get that in the winter- with a hand sled up to the old station.

196 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

When the train goes up in the morn- Andrew goes and pounds the ash ing to Fredericton, they load up right [said in Maliseet]. there. Alice: What did they use, what kind of Alice: Did it cost much to get on the tool did they used to pound ash? train? Pat: Ax. Whatever you can get, maybe a Pat: About fifty cents. three pound ax, maybe heavier or Alice: To go all the way to Fredericton? maybe lighter. Lighter is no good, Pat: Yes. you got to work harder, you got to hit Alice: How many brothers and sisters harder. But if you have a good heavy did you have? ax, you don’t have to pound so much. Pat: I had quite a few but I still got Alice: How long does it take to pound a (pause) My sisters are all dead. stick? Like a good size one. Alice: Do you have any more brothers Pat: Half a day. that are living? Alice: What about something smaller? Pat: No, brothers no. Pat: Maybe an hour or an hour and a Alice: So you’re all by yourself? half. Pat: Just my sons now, my daughters. Alice: No one makes baskets here Alice: How many children did you anymore? have? Pat: No. Pat: About 11 or 12, that’s fooling Alice: Nobody? around too. Pat: You have to buy your own for Alice: Where did you get ash? fiddleheads. I bought one down there, Pat: Oromocto Island, we had to lug I have one down in the basement. them so long ways. Right on the Alice: Where did you buy it? shoulder. Take a rest once in a while Pat: I bought that from the young fel- and then go again. Load them on your lows around here. boat or canoe. Alice: Where did they get them? Alice: Can you still get ash on the Pat: I don’t know. Oromocto Island? Alice: What did the old people do when Pat: Oh, yes, you can. But no one knows you were growing up, for entertain- how to use them. My daughter, she ment? knows how to make baskets. I never Pat: We went to dances [said in Mali- could learn… seet]. I used to go a long way from Alice: …I’ve seen a lot of basket mak- here. Even to Rusagonis, I would go ing on my reserve when I was grow- with the boys. ing up and I don’t know how to make Alice: What about the reserve, where them either. did the music come from? Who Pat: I’m trying to learn [said in Mali- played? seet]. I’m trying. I watch them work- Pat: There was my brother-in-law, Joe ing at the band hall [said in Maliseet]. Paul, he played good fiddle, accor-

197 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

dion. Alice: What did you do with them? Alice: Who played the accordion? Pat: I skinned them, I made stretchers. Pat: Charlie Sark. Alice: How did you skin them, with Alice: Who played the violin? what? Pat: Joe Paul Pat: Jack knife. Big sharp ones, it didn’t Alice: What about Joe Shaker, what did take long to skin them. There’s so he play? many and they stunk [said in Mali- Pat: He played guitar. That was before I seet]. My old lady would ask me if I joined the army, that was about 1938, was done and I told her yes. I put 1939. That was a long time ago. them in a box. She said, take them Alice: What did the women do, down outside, they stink [said in Maliseet]. around here? I put them all in a box and leave them Pat: In them days, picking berries, outside. blueberries, raspberries, whatever Alice: When you skinned them, you they can get. I know a lot of old sold the furs? people that used to board at my house Pat: Yes in Fredericton. Tuedie [Fred]. Alice: How much? Alice: And his wife Clara? Pat: It wasn’t much, two dollars apiece. Pat: And them two daughters she had. Alice: You would have to have a lot to They got married with the Paul boys, make any money? Joe Segby [said in Maliseet]. Pat: Making money, you got to keep Alice: And Dan? saving them every week. You take Pat: Dan, yes. them over, whatever you got. Buy a Alice: They married Berna and Alexa. little stuff out of them. Pat: I know all of them and Junior their Alice: So that bought you groceries? son [Fred Paul Junior]. I hardly go to Pat: Yes. town anymore. I’m too old [said in Alice: Did you ever trade them for Maliseet]. food? Alice: Do you ever go to Gagetown? Pat: No. We did up here, a Mr. MacRoy, Pat: Oh, once in a while, when I get a he had a big store. He’d buy them to chance. Somebody might come. get a few groceries for them. We had Alice: Who do you go see there [said in a hard time around here, everybody I Maliseet]? think. Pat: Bobby Nash and Joanie. Alice: Was there a lot of people living Alice: Did you do any hunting? here at the time? Pat: Me, quite a bit. Pat: Yes. Alice: What did you hunt? Alice: Like how many? Pat: Well, I set my traps out. Muskrats, Pat: The old people, there must have whatever I could catch, mink, wea- been about twenty of them. sels. Alice: Do you ever remember them

198 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

celebrating ‘Old Christmas’? breaks down I have to fix it myself. Pat: No, I wasn’t allowed out, too Sometimes the brake line, breaks and young. As soon as I have my supper, I have to do that. I’ll look for a park- put all the wood in the house and ing place. Long time ago on Mary- away I go upstairs. land Hill, I was just going up the hill Alice: You had a hard life? to cross the bridge and I couldn’t Pat: Oh, yeah. stop. No brakes or nothing. The truck Alice: Do you remember anything about fell crosswise across that bridge and I the ‘little people’? met some cars. I had a load of gravel. Pat: I hear something, and I used to. I finally took it out of gear. They used to see them around here Alice: Know anything about moose somewhere. Little people, yes [said in hide? Maliseet]. I don’t know where they Pat: No, but I know deer hide. What went after that. Disappeared. they used to do, skin the deer, nail Alice: Tell me about how you were hide on the shed wall. Stretch them spooked when you were a boy? out, dry them out. Clean it. They used Pat: Well, I don’t want to talk about that to even lay on them. Nice and warm. [said in Maliseet]. I was still going to Alice: Did you ever fish? school that time. I was about twelve Pat: Oh, yes. I fished quite a bit too. I or thirteen years old. Fred and Clara used to do that for my father, do it all came to a dance at my house [said in by myself. I would do that before Maliseet]. That’s the time they had school, take big wash tubs, take it up those two girls and the young fellow, on a boat with me. Junior. I know them. Are those girls Alice: How did you keep your food, like still living? deer, moose, fish? Back then, we Alice: One of them is, Alexa. Berna is didn’t have no fridges? gone though, Dan too. Pat: Do you know the old Indian Style? Pat: Joe Segby, is he dead too [said in They hung it outside and dried it. I Maliseet]? think the way I looked at it one time, Alice: Yes. they had a big pan. They mixed that Pat: He used to work with Andy out with water and salt. And they rubbed here at Seven Works out in the camp. all that water and salt with it, all over I never worked with those guys out that meat. So that the bugs or any- there… I used to drive gravel trucks thing couldn’t get at it, because they from here to Fredericton Junction, didn’t like that stuff. That would keep Maryland Hill. That big hill, that’s them away. And whatever little cellar where I hauled gravel from we had, we hang them downstairs. Fredericton Junction to there. Corn was the same thing, we buy at Alice: Was the pay good? the fall of the year all kinds of it. And Pat: Ten dollars a day. When the truck then we skinned that all up and tie

199 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

them at the ends. Maybe up stairs, dry you are too late. I said I could have them up for winter and we would earlier, but every time I come here I have enough for winter. am always late, late for a drink. He Alice: And they kept that way? wouldn’t save me nothing. I said, that Pat: Yes. learned me a lesson. I even borrowed Alice: What kind of food was eaten a dollar from my father to buy them back then? mahqanhikin (maple sugar). My Pat: Whatever we could afford. If you father used to say, where are you bought anything in stores, you’ve got going? I would say I am going to the to keep selling everything, across the store. river on the Maugerville side. Bas- Alice: Wintertime, Pat, back then, how kets, whatever you can sell to feed the did you travel if you didn’t have any kids going to school every day. They cars? had to eat. Now the spring of the year, Pat: Even if it’s a cold day, if you had to I seen a lot of days, we had them big go for something, you had to hitch- barrels. They were that high, we salt hike. We would stand at the end of our own fish. I was the one who did the bridge and start hiking from there. all the cleaning and scaling. Cut them Sometimes they pick you up, some- open, clean them, throw them in times you don’t. water. Just like if I was doing them Alice: Did you ever walk all the way to right today, the way I feel. Fredericton? Alice: We don’t forget where we’re Pat: Oh, yes, summertime. When I was coming from. old enough, I walk up there. A lot of Pat: No, we can’t. times, I pass out going down towards END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE Oromocto. TAPE ONE SIDE TWO Alice: The older ones, how did they Pat: Alice Polchies married Jack travel? Like when you were just a Sabattis from Kingsclear. At that kid. time, they used to live up here too. Pat: Well, they had to do the same thing. They told me to come and stay with But a lot of times these older people, them over night. I said, I don’t know, when they pick fiddleheads in the I have to ask my parents. If it is spring of the year. They load up their alright to go, I’ll go; but if I can’t, I fiddleheads in a canoe and start stay home. So I went down to talk paddling, from here right to with my mother, and if she okayed, I Fredericton. Now you can’t paddle could go. A long time ago, Noel Paul, across the island, too lazy. You have he lived in Kingsclear. He must have to have an outboard before you can died there and Molly-sus. That time go anywhere. my uncle came, he would go visit Alice: Did anybody ever make snow- there. The late Noel By, he said, no, shoes up here?

200 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Pat: No. Hand sled, loads of wood. I used to Alice: Did John ever make baskets? do that in Devon. Nowly [Noel Pat: John knew how to make baskets Polchies], Qumuci, I used to haul and ax handles. I would go in there wood for them. I stayed there all and sit along side of him and talk. winter one time. One time Nowly Alice: What did you talk about? said, where are you going? I said, Pat: May as well say everything. Accept nowhere. He said, you must want to the good things. What we are going to go somewhere, because you are do next week. When you get too old, chasing your gloves. That was winter- I just didn’t bother with him no more. time. He said, you don’t want to go to I just had to hunt around for a town. I said, it’s too cold. He too had younger guy. a jug, he wanted to get a couple Alice: Did people get along back then drinks of my jug. Maybe some other real good? night. Some other night, he said, I Pat: Well, our people, but them other will give you a dollar, go to the show ones. Some of them people… they in town. How could I go to the show? were bad. They used to chase every- I just made it to the bus going to body else, at nights they use their Oromocto, I got on and rode to clubs. They didn’t chase us, we’d Oromocto. Boy, next day, two or fight back. three in the afternoon, here they Alice: A lot of people that had lived here come. Qumuci and Nowly asking, before, not all, but some of those ones where is he? They said, he is upstairs. in Kingsclear today, they used to live Qumuci came up and said, why did here right? you do that? I said, sometimes I miss Pat: Yes. The old people we used to my father and my mother. He said, protect them. I was fourteen or fifteen why didn’t you say so, we would years old then… have brought you here. I said, I did Alice: Dolly and Levi when they were not want to bother you. I am done alive, did they make baskets? cording wood for you. Pat: No. Alice: Do you still miss them? Alice: What about Charlie Sark and Pat: Now, I miss them when I walk Annabelle? along Fredericton, because I know Pat: Well, once. When they got a little they are gone. How’s Evangeline? older, they don’t bother with it. Alice: She’s dead too, Louise too. She Alice: But did they used to make them? used to make baskets. I remember her Pat: When we worked at the old band making little cradles, they were so hall. Ah, we done a lot of work. beautiful. She would dye her ash too. Alice: Did Timer ever make baskets? I think a lot of them used to make Pat: No. All the young fellows always baskets there, but I don’t think any- did was to haul wood for our people. body does now. Mike Sacobie, he

201 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 13.2: Lawrence Paul and his wife Mary Sacobie; Pat's sister and brother-in-law (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1904).

makes the odd basket, the potato them, I’ll let you have them for credit basket, fiddlehead basket. and you can pick them up any time Pat: That would be Polons’ (Frank’s) you want. son Mike. You know what happen the Alice: How do you find life today? other day? A young fellow come over Pat: It’s way better than in my younger here, I don’t know what he was days, because I don’t have to work so looking for. Some young fellows hard now. I may as well say I don’t around here, I said, you want to buy work anymore. My legs are bothering something? He said, I would love to. me, my hips. I can’t walk good, or I He said, what are you going to sell have to use my cane to steady myself. me. I said, I will let you have them If it wasn’t for my cane, I would be real cheap. He didn’t crack a smile, crawling. he believed me and I kept a straight Alice: I thank you very much for letting face. I said, I got mosquitoes around me interview you. END OF TAPE here for sale. If you don’t want to buy

202 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

14. Old time fiddling music

PIOUS AND HARRIET PERLEY NEQOTKUK/TOBIQUE FIRST NATION

…he used to have an orchestra and he played. My father played the violin and my older sister plays piano. And one of my brothers plays the saxophone and my other brother played the trombone. And the other brother played the drums. And then my uncle, my father taught my uncle how to play the violin. And they harmonized as they played. And they played all the old time fiddling music, because my father read music. He was a regular taught musician, he also played the coronet in the 69th regiment band. So that’s where we got all our music. - Pious Perley

Long time ago, we didn’t have any dams, so we had all kinds of islands. Even on the Tobique side and the Saint John River. - Harriet Perley

Alice: Pious and Harriet, have you lived from St. Mary’s or someone is from on the Tobique all your lives? Tobique. From different areas, they Pious: I was born here in 1925 and we are not from the same reserve. What moved out in 1931-32, somewhere did your mom and dad do? Did they around there. When my father moved make baskets? over to Fort Fairfield. Pious: Yes. They both knew all the Alice: What was your father’s name? Indian crafts, everything. And my Pious: Joseph Perley. mother, she made fancy baskets of all Alice: And your mother? kinds and she even put leather on the Pious: Annie Perley, she was Annie akomok (snowshoes). She used to Moulton. weave all that in the inside of the Alice: Who is your mother Harriet? snowshoes. Harriet: Florence Deveau. Alice: …When they made baskets, did Alice: And your father? they make potato baskets also, along Harriet: Thomas Paul from Pilick with fancy baskets? (Kingsclear). Pious: Yes. My father had a form. He Alice: It’s amazing when I go around made a form, so his baskets were these reserves, there is somebody uniformed. Four baskets to a barrel.

203 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

That’s the way they were. I used to process it. And cut it, smoothing it watch them make the baskets. I used out. And they cut it exactly the right to go with him, wherever that car size of the length of the ash and start went, I went. When I was just about weaving. Then they make the bottom four or five—when you can just first and all these, what we call barely begin to remember—I used to splints, are sticking out, standards. go with them when they went after And then my brother used to take that ash. And me and my dad and two of bottom, with them sticking out and my brothers maybe. And they would nail that right to the form, with a pound the ash, right out there by the couple of board nails. One on top and stream. Usually the ash is by the bottom and that would hold it. Then stream, brook, because it needs a lot he would bend the standards and he’d of moisture from there. I could see start weaving and that thing just how they peel the stuff from them and circulates. They used that form, had

Plate 14.1: Snowshoes (photo by Viktoria Kramer).

204 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

one of those like an ‘x’ off of a car had drawing knife, they had crooked and it was in a barrel, like this. That knife? ‘x’ went on top of the barrel, on one Pious: Yes, crooked knife. What he used side of the barrel, and pointed down to do, to make these crooked knives, about 45 degrees down. Down here he would carve them with all differ- was a place where he could, and that ent designs. Like he would kind of would turn. So as he is weaving, that beautify the whole thing. He used to thing would turn. And that was easy do that with sticks and a jack knife, it and it was fast once you got it going. was like a hobby. It’s better than holding it on your lap, Alice: He must have been good with because you’re standing up. And then working with wood? they cut the whole thing, that’s mak- Pious: Yes, that’s exactly it. There ing potato baskets. Dad would make wasn’t anything that he couldn’t the handles and also the rims for the make. As long as he knew what it baskets. looked like before and he could Alice: As you were watching them make duplicate it, the way it is. baskets, what kind of tools did they Alice: That must have been nice? have? Pious: He was good working with cedar Pious: Well, one of the things is what especially, like those. He would make we call the ‘horse’, that’s what we a form. Like two side, two sticks used and it’s kind of hard to describe. come up this way and then the cross Alice: I know what you mean, I’ve seen piece and then the bottom. And then them. he’d make like a half a basket, like Pious: Yes. Anyway, he had a nice one ash. And they used to weave and put and he operated that with his feet. He that right around in there and that puts his feet down, the thing comes would be the handle. down and it holds the ash. And he Alice: No one makes them like that takes his drawing knife and start up. I anymore? had to laugh, I always thought it Pious: No and he used to make those looks funny. As I look at it now, my squares. Everything was uniform, he father was a fast worker. You know, was like that. especially when he was in a hurry. He Alice: I was over to Houlton, about a was making a nice hoop and he was month ago, talking to Fred Tomah. using a drawing knife so fast, he cut And he had like molds for baskets. that right in two. You talk about And I guess he specializes in the cat swearing, you’d think he was pray- head and that’s what he makes. They ing. And he wasn’t the type of person were nice and he showed me pictures to swear either. There came a time of fancy baskets from Princeton, when he did. Passamoquoddy, Old Town. Alice: So what else did they have, they Pious: Boy, my dad used to be good at

205 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

it, comb baskets. Alice: What do you call that? I’ve seen Harriet: Jim used to make them. them, like different (pause) Pious: He could even make them cone Harriet: I know. What did they call shaped or like a mail box type. them? They have a name for them. Alice: I seen one picture of a—you Pious: That’s probably something I know how that corn. What do you haven’t heard for (pause) call that? All that coloured corn Alice: I’ve seen different, like half anyway. And it fit right into this inches. basket and it was so pretty. When Pious: Different sizes? they made baskets, did they add Alice: Yes, different sizes. colour to them? Harriet: I can’t remember either what Pious: Yes, oh, yes. They used to send they call that. for dye packages from Old Town. Pious: Even just making a cover form is Alice: Nobody ever made homemade quite a thing. dye? I spoke to one woman (pause) Harriet: They don’t know over at Pious: I think my mother, come to think Molly’s [Mary Moulton] what they of it now. call that or Spike [Donald Moulton]. Alice: I spoke to one woman in Alice: I haven’t spoken to Spike yet. Kingsclear, she said they used berries, I’m going to see him tomorrow. cherries and stuff like that. Harriet: Because they make baskets. Pious: What my mother used was dye. Alice: I went to see him yesterday and She would take her ash, before she he was sitting there making a basket. made the basket. And she takes all There was two women there doing this material—splints for weaving— bead work. anyway she would have it all cut and Harriet: They make everything in that put it in a row. [Harriet is saying shop. something here, but I can’t make it Alice: Yes. out]. After it’s all processed, after all Harriet: Beading, baskets and every- the ash is taken apart, so that it is very thing else. thin. Alice: How was life for you, when you Alice: So, what is that tool that they were growing up here? You said you use? had moved away for a while. Pious: That’s to separate. The fancy Pious: Well, I remember in the fall, baskets are smaller, now that has to we’d move over for potato picking. be cut evenly. And in the spring, planting, seed Harriet: It’s almost like a measure, is cutting. And these were the two times what they use it for. we’d move over. But then again, my Alice: Yes. father ran a store here. He had a little Pious: Once you get that in there, that store, one pool table. We were the cuts that. first ones who had a telephone here.

206 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

We had to order supplies and it was a And then we lived in Barbara’s general store. Canned foods, stuff like [Barbara Perley] house, that’s almost that, candy. I remember the night we across, diagonally across, towards the ate that up. It’s a funny thing, once river. you’ve eaten so much, you don’t want Alice: Your parents being here, what it no more. Maybe just once in a kind of activities did they do, like the while, suckers or something. When older people back then? you get enough of everything, then Pious: Well, what they done was they you don’t want it, you don’t have the played a lot of cards. They had raf- craving anymore. fles, they played for hazel nuts, Alice: So there wasn’t that many fami- candy. lies then, like here? Harriet: It was 45s. Pious: Here? Pious: Chelimine (card games). 45s. Alice: Yes. Back then? They used to have house parties, Pious: Yes, there was a lot of families. birthday parties, things like that. Harriet: Not as big as it is now. Alice: Did they have dances, like square Alice: No, I remember the old part of dances? Did they go to somebody’s the reserve. house? Could you tell me something Harriet: It went as far as where Rena’s about that. [Rena Sappier] house is. Pauline Pious: We had a hall here, community Saulis [Nicholas] used to live there, it hall, right where the old house is now. went as far as there, a long time ago. Only it was facing the other way, Pious: And just this side of Spikes facing east west. This way is north [Donald Moulton], just a little ways south. It was an old building, you around that turn. know, but it was still a good building Harriet: And up there where Leo with not too much underneath. [Francis] lives. We were just talking about that this Pious: This is our third year coming up, morning. We used to go down (pause) living in this house. see my father, he used to have an Harriet: This house. orchestra and he played. My father Alice: You’ve been living in this house played the violin and my older sister three years now? plays piano. And one of my brothers Harriet and Pious: Yes. plays the saxophone and my other Pious: This was all woods. brother played the trombone. And the Harriet: We’ve been here about five other brother played the drums. And years, when we moved back. then my uncle, my father taught my Pious: You know where they’re putting uncle how to play the violin. And that little canteen? they harmonized as they played. And Alice: Yes. they played all the old time fiddling Pious: That’s the first house we lived in. music, because my father read music.

207 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

He was a regular taught musician, he Pious: She was Perley wasn’t she? also played the coronet in the 69th Harriet: Yes. regiment band. So that’s where we Alice: I didn’t even get your last name. got all our music. Pious: Perley, of course. Alice: Nobody taught you, you picked it Alice: What about when someone died, upon your own? what kind of ceremonies did they Pious: No. Right from the time I played have; if they with him, I was only a little fellow. had any at all? Alice: How often did you have these Pious: Years ago, I remember whenever dances? Like square dances? someone was dying, you would see Pious: There was St. Anne’s, whenever lots of people outdoors paying re- the Priest wanted some funds. spect. And everybody felt for every- Harriet: Like whenever they wanted to body, there was a lot of feelings in raise money, like they’d have these them days. And they weren’t induced cake auctions. by booze or induced by drugs, it was Pious: Oh, what do you call them, real feeling that people had. basket social. Alice: I can remember when I was Harriet: Basket social, yes. And like growing up in St. Mary’s, when I was whoever buys your cake, you go and just a young girl, no one locked their have lunch with them. doors. There was no telephones back Alice: Oh, really. then, you just walk in, sit down, have Pious: That was your date and then there something to eat and drink. But today was weddings too, you know. it’s so different. Today you have to Harriet: Wedding or (pause) lock doors, call just to see someone. Alice: Speaking of weddings, was there What about fiddleheading? ever any marriages that were ar- Pious: It’s the same as it ever was. ranged for people? Alice: Where do they fiddlehead? Pious: Yes. In the older ones before us. Pious and Harriet: All along the river, up Harriet: Only my great grandmother. Tobique, on the islands. Alice: They had someone chosen for Harriet: Long time ago, we didn’t have somebody already. any dams, so we had all kinds of Pious: Yes. islands. Even on the Tobique side and Alice: Is that right? the Saint John River. Pious: But it didn’t last. Pious: Above Plaster Rock, there’s a lot Alice: None of them lasted. of them. Harriet: Well, he died. Kci Mum’s Alice: People ever go on these islands husband. My mother’s grandmother and go make their baskets and stay they stayed together until he died. for a summer or for a season? She hated him, but had to marry him. Pious: That would be before our time. My mother’s grandmother. Alice: Yes.

208 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 14.2: Scene along the Tobique (Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, P5-333).

Pious: Not in our time. Harriet: Yes. Harriet: But we have seen pictures of Alice: For sports fishermen? them, way before our time. Pious: Yes. Alice: What about fishing, what kind of Alice: Do you remember anybody fishing did they do here? Did they making birch bark canoes? I know ever spear fish? we’re going way, way back. Harriet: That would be before our time, Harriet: Yes. because as far as I can remember, Pious: No, not here. They don’t make your father used to guide. them here on the reserve, they usually Pious: Yes, my father used to be a guide. make them in the woods. Near where Harriet: Simon Paul, Atole [Andrew] all the material is. and all of them, they used to be Alice: I seen a picture. guides. Harriet: Where all the material is. Pious: People even come up from New Alice: There was five men. Frank Paul, York, come up this way and fish. there might have been a couple from Alice: Is that what this lodge is all about St. Mary’s or Kingsclear or up here, that there building? Oromocto. They were putting to-

209 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

gether a birch bark canoe, but this Alice: I’ve seen baskets that don’t have was a long, long time ago. one nail in them. Pious: Yes. Harriet: yes. Harriet: I think maybe somebody had Alice: And they’re so beautiful. So what come and tried to teach them. And about hunting. Did your father hunt? show them how to put them together. Did you Pious: My father used to talk about it, hunt along with him? how it’s done. He knew, but at that Pious: No, I was too young in them time, it never dawned on me. years. But he was crafty too. On Alice: I think a lot of things don’t dawn Sunday mornings, usually after mass on a lot of people after a while. on Sunday mornings, a lot of the Because I speak with some people people would go hunting. They and they say I should have listened. usually come up this way and go Or I should have picked this up as around that way. So my father knew they were growing up. And then some that this is what they’re going to do, don’t even remember anything. so he went down around the other Pious: Of all the times since I was way. When he goes down the other young, watching them pound ash and way, they chase the deer to him. All how everything is done. And I know he had to do was take them all and he how everything is to be done and how sold some of that meat in the store. they do it and everything. But you We had a meat grinder and every- know, I never done it. I didn’t have thing. to. I was being provided for and they Alice: What did he do with the fur or never asked me to do it. The only whatever he got? thing I used to do was clinch nails on Pious: They used it, like say making them baskets on the inside, what they snowshoes. Making other (pause) put around the hoops. We had a little Even for chairs, a lot of things, even rail, about that long and that’s how I tennis racquets and supeksisik [foot- clinched them nails. That was my job. wear]. You’d be surprised what Alice: Was that the proper way to make leather could be used for. My father baskets, to use nails? Weren’t they would try anything, if he sees it and bound? he thinks of it, he’ll try it. Pious: No, no. The potato baskets, Alice: So you’ve had an easy life your- potato baskets is something that self? (pause) Pious: Yes. I had a damn good life. Alice: That you have to use nails on Alice: Some weren’t as fortunate as you. (pause) Pious: Dad was a good provider. He Pious: For better production. became an alcoholic, like I did, but he Harriet: Well, maybe before nails came. still could provide. Pious: They had to bound them. Alice: Yes. Religion, Indian people were

210 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

very religious at one time? no fear. There was nothing to fear. Pious: Yes. Catholicism, you know And then the Catholicism come along Mike Ranco? and they taught Indians to fear. If they Alice: No. don’t do this or if they don’t do that, Pious: He’s from Old Town, he used to they’re going to hell. From then on, be one of my directors. The Wabanaki that’s how it all started. Right up to Corporation, I worked for that corpo- this day, I could see where he’s ration. I was a consortium of all coming from. I could identify and Indian tribes, noted tribes, registered deal with that problem. You know tribes in the state of Maine. They when you stop to figure, years ago, come together and formed this you take like Mi’kmaq (Micmac) and Wabanaki Corporation. Drug and some people from here went to them alcohol. And he told me one time, he residential schools. How they used was having a workshop and he was the Indian kids and they tried to keep talking about Indians in general. He them from talking their own language said, Indian, that’s the worst thing and their way of life. They couldn’t that could happen to Indians, when even talk Indian among themselves, they introduced Catholicism. He said, they’d get beaten. And so many up to this time the Indians didn’t have things, sexual abuse and everything.

Plate 14.3: Tobique, St. Anne's Church, before it burned down between 1922 and 1925 (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1872).

211 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

How could anybody out of the cloth had before. Because I wasn’t aware of do something like that? Using us like what was happening, until I was animals. Boy that made me just boil sober for a while. I kind of grew up over and I almost said the hell with it. and everything else began to focus. And on top of that the Catholics was Alice: Well, I guess I could say the in with the government. same, after I sobered up. I think Alice: Pious, when you speak of the everything falls into place after a Indian way of life, just what is that, while. because I don’t understand it? Pious: Remember, they used to say it Pious: Indian way of life is an attitude, I takes nine months to a year before would say that it’s an attitude. You you get your thinking straight. But got to think Indian. There’s two ways, that really means is, from nine supposing that you were a white months to a year you begin to grow person, what would you think about up, because an alcoholic is a very us? You’re thinking white. Well, look immature person. at what the white people has done to Alice: Very immature. us. They made us change our attitude, Pious: You never grow up. See, from the how we interact with the people time they drink, they never grow, outside of the reserve, with different never grow. They stay right there. nationalities, predominately white. Alice: Religion was a big thing for Because they have put us down so far Indians a long time ago. When I was down and that we’ve lost self-esteem growing up, I had to go to confession. and everything else. And inferior I had to go to church every Sunday, complex is one of the biggest things couldn’t eat meat on Friday, like on that the Indians have nowadays; a lot Good Friday. of the contributors to alcoholism. Harriet: That’s right. They made us feel inferior and they Pious: Curfew here on the reserve. still do. Alice: Curfew? Alice: Are you a recovering person? Pious and Harriet: Curfew. Pious: Yes. Alice: Really? Alice: So am I. Pious: They used to go around with a Pious: Forty years last March. bull-whip. Alice: For me, twenty-four years on the Harriet: Nine o’clock. first of August. Pious: Bull-whip. Pious: Hey, that’s a new way of life. Pious and Harriet: The priest and the Alice: The religion part? constable. Pious: You asked me a generalized Alice: Who would they be back then? question of what an Indian is, but I Pious: George Bernard and Father put it as how I see it. After I sobered Alexie. up, I could see things better than I Harriet: After awhile it was Father

212 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Raymond. ing to them at school. Like they were Pious: Father Raymond, he was big. being punished with a great, big, Harriet: Big, fat Priest. thick strap [said in Maliseet]. And the Alice: When they had the nuns here. I parents started fighting back. remember that building, they just tore Pious: They done that to my brother, my down. brother next to me, Fred [Perley]. Pious: They had the dominance. They And my father found out and he went had the authority over everyone. That to the Priest. And told him, if you was it. See, there was fear. Now you ever touch my kid again, I’ll kill you. see what I mean about fear, you do Alice: My mother told me too, one time this or else. the nuns were teaching her and she Alice: Why did the Indians let these wore fingernail polish and one of the people do that? At one time, like you nuns hit her. And she said she still said, didn’t fear nobody or anything. remembers that today. Pious: But at this time, the whole struc- Pious: Yes. ture of thinking really became differ- Harriet: Me too, I started fighting back. ent. The dominant race came in. I wasn’t going to get punished for Harriet: Because they dealt with kids. something I didn’t do. And I knew I And after a while the kids started was right, but she thought she was telling the parents what was happen- too.

Plate 14.4: Tobique, on Corpus Christi; "Pamohseimiyan" (walking around praying) celebration, June 7, 1917 or 1918 (University of New Brunswick Archives, AC- 10276-7).

213 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Pious: See, these were dominant people, how are you a cousin to him? people with authority. White people. Harriet: Through my mother, no my It just burned in your mind. father. My father, like I say, he’s from Alice: But don’t we have dominate Kingsclear. Tom Paul. people, Indian people also? Now Alice: So, I must have relatives up here? today? Harriet and Pious: Oh, yes, you do. Harriet: Yes, we do. Alice: I wouldn’t know who they were Pious: We’re talking about today, every- or who they are. body is educated. There’s a difference Harriet: Valerie, them are my sisters between day and night. We have kids, Valerie Francis. Kathy lives in lawyers, registered nurses, doctors. Kingsclear. You have a lot of relatives Alice: People got along together a long here and Auntie Malone’s children. time ago. Alice: See, I didn’t know that either. I Harriet: Oh, yes. thought, like Kingsclear I knew for Pious: There was some you know, sure. especially when they were drinking. Harriet: Connie, Mavis. One of them was my uncle, one of the Alice: Really? Sappier boys and they (pause) Harriet: Yes. Harriet: Frankie. Pious: Here’s another thing. We talked Pious: Yes, Frankie Sappier. They’d beat with the one of those GED class, me each other and they wrestle and it and Spike, and I was telling them that gets pretty hairy after a while. my mother was a Moulton. And here Alice: But in general everybody got was Sonny Moulton’s [Arthur along? Moulton] kids, daughter, right in the Harriet: Oh, yes. They’d help each class. And they didn’t even know that other, they shared and cared for one we were related. And that Sonny another. never ever told them that my mother Pious: If somebody had a hard time they was Sonny’s nephew. pitched in and helped. Harriet: No, Sonny was her nephew. Harriet: They’d go around gathering Pious: Never told his kids that we were groceries. related. Alice: I remember when my father died, Alice: I would like to know who I’m one of the men from St. Mary’s, he related to. Like you said, I probably went around to the homes, like food have a lot here, but I don’t even know and stuff. You must know my father, who they are. Like on my father side Dokie. and on my mother side, well, I don’t Pious: Oh, yes. even know. Like some Meuses, I Harriet: Dokie is your father? He’s my guess. Like Alice and Pat Meuse that cousin. were here. I am related to them. I Alice: Really, I didn’t know that. So, don’t know about Laportes.

214 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Pious: Maynard [Laporte] and his only go so far. As far as where Lana brother and they have one sister. [lennon] lives, this is where they Harriet: Martina is their sister. would jump off. And they just go in Alice: Martina, there’s Pat, Gregory, the woods, in bushes, and disappear Harry, Sonny and the one they call right there. And nobody won’t see Sister, I think she’s in Saint John. I them again. And again when my just met that Maynard the other day. I mother told me about them. And looked at him and I thought he looked when Ramo [Raymond Sappier] died, familiar to me. He looked like Pat Barbara [Perley] told me, and we [Laporte] were sitting there, she told me she Harriet: Those are Atolesis’ [Andrew seen them too. A little boy and a little Laporte] kids. girl walking along the road, over Alice: They have same mother, but there by Louie Nicholas’ house. You different father, eh? know where the house is? Harriet: Yes. Alice: Yes. Alice: I’m going to turn this tape around Harriet: As they were walking, they Harriett and I want you to tell me came over by Barbara’s. And they about the ‘little people’. were dressed so nicely and dressed END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE kind of old fashion. And their shoes TAPE ONE SIDE TWO were like the high ones, high laced Alice: Well, let’s talk about them. shoes, the way they looked long time Harriet: Who [said in Maliseet]? ago. And Barbara said the little girl Alice: I still can’t say it. had such a pretty coat and the boy, his Pious: Kiwolatomuhsisok (Little Peo- little pants were breeches and they ple). were black. Barbara told me this in Alice: Tell me about them [said in great detail. Maliseet]. Alice: Are they good luck or (pause)? Harriet: Well, this is only what I heard Harriet: Sometimes, to some people from way back, my mother used to they are and to some people they tell us about them [said in Maliseet]. bring sad news. But if someone Like he said, Pius, they’ve been doesn’t believe in them and you keep around for a long time. They used fighting them, they won’t help you. to—when they first started having Alice: I hear so much of them from each cars here—they used to jump on the person that I’ve spoken to. I think I cars. Jump on the running board and believe that they exist. they only go so far. People have seen Pious: There’s too many that seen them. them. Cecicwicik (Cecic’s family) Harriet and Pious: Yes. and my mother’s brother, Uncle John. Pious: But they go from way, way back. Because he used to have a car, they Alice: Oh, I guess. Yes. jump on the running board and they Harriet: Way back.

215 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: I believe that. I hear from every them too. reserve that I have gone to. Harriet: That’s it, Eastport not Harriet: Oh, yes. They’re on all re- Princeton. Dolly and Coozy, they serves. Princeton too, that’s where I were there right near where they got them beads. wanted to build that supermarket. Pious: They look like little tires. They couldn’t build. And somebody Harriet: They’re all different shapes. wanted to build a garage and some- Alice: Have you got them? thing happened and they couldn’t Harriet: No. Pat has them. finish it. And they finally gave up. Alice: Pat? Somebody told them, there is some- Pious: Pat Paul. thing telling you not to build anything Harriet: Pat Paul. on that lot. Alice: I was thinking maybe if you have Alice: Something like in Kingsclear, them and they come from the ‘little there is a great big rock with footprint people’ (pause) in it. Taber’s Field, I think that’s what Pious and Harriet: Yes. it’s called. Nothing grows on that Alice: I was thinking, if you had them, land. We were up there last week we could come and photograph them. photographing that rock. It has two Harriet: I would have to ask Pat if he foot prints, one this way and one that still got them. He had them in school. way. There’s a story to that rock. Did Pious: For demonstration. you hear about that? Harriet: My needle was still on one of Harriet: I don’t remember, but I think I the beads. I was making like a little heard it. bracelet. Alice: There has been about three or Alice: Was there a lot of them? four people that told me already. Harriet: Quite a few. When we got them Harriet: Is that where they used to have in Princeton, a girl by the name of dances? Dolly, I don’t remember her last Alice: I don’t know. name. She was the one that sent them. Harriet: Where they used to hold There is one certain place in dances? Princeton where the ‘little people’ Alice: That rock is like on Chapel Road, live. They wanted to make a store, a it’s about a mile in. And it’s right big store, something like a supermar- there, like on the side of the road. ket. IT was up and it caught fire, And Taber’s Field, nothing grows nobody knew how it started. Again, there on that land. The white man they tried to build again on the same tried to take more of the land than place, it happened again. It caught on what he was suppose to have. And fire, but nobody knew, that’s what this Indian had moccasins on—that’s Dolly was telling me. what Whimpy [Charles Solomon Sr.] Alice: Eastport too, a lot people seen tells me anyway—he set foot on this

216 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

rock and he told that man that nothing Harriet: Yes, Louie. will prosper on this land. And nothing Pious: They would take them down- has, nothing has grown there for stairs. years and years and years. He could Harriet: They would take their silver- tell you stories, just like Royden ware and put it downstairs. Sabattis. Pious: How or what did they do? Pious: Snowshoe shaped islands, this Harriet: They cleaned them. side of Kingsclear, are they under Pious: What did they do to the water now? Piyekotluknul (ash shaving waste)? Alice: Yes, same with Bear Island. Harriet: Yes, well, Louie used to make Pious: We seen them years ago. My baskets in the downstairs at his house. sister, my oldest sister lived in And he left everything as it was, he Kingsclear. She was married to Frank didn’t clean it up. He didn’t bother to Sappier, old Frank. We used to go clean it up, he was going to go back down and see them years and years and work some more. When he went ago. Back in the 1930’s and you down, it was all cleaned up [said in could see them Snowshoe Islands. Maliseet]. They cleaned up the cellar. Alice: My mother has mentioned them. Well, that was all right, they let it go. I don’t think she has ever seen them He went back to work, again the same or maybe she has. Well, my mother, thing; when he went back, it was all she is sixty-seven. Yes, she might cleaned up again. He was wondering. have seen them, because I think she That was the time that Barbara’s son said Bear Island, they were on Bear drowned and I think his name was Island. Dean, he drowned down the hill. Harriet: That time Barbara lived at Alice: Rena [Sappier] was telling me Louis’, those Kiwolatomuhsisok (little about, she seen them too. Rena, when people), she seen them going around she had one of her kids, and she said back of her house. So she went to the down by the river there. Like by the back door to open the door for them, dam, before the dam was there. They to talk to them. When she opened the found a chair made out of rock. Like door, they weren’t there. And she saw you said, to a stairway, something them going or walking back to the like that. road. Harriet: They were just like little steps Pious: What was that about them steal- and you can sit on that chair. Yes. ing some silverware? That place [Auskamotisk] where we Harriet: That was Mary that told us. used to go swimming. Mary Solomon when she lived at the Pious: That ledge, by that ledge those old convent. were those steps. Pious: Nekol [William Nicholas] and Alice: I think I should end our inter- Louie said the same thing. view. I do one hour interviews but

217 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

(pause) Norma [Deveau] said, he scared us Harriet: When Philip [Sappier] was all, what’s the matter with him. And dying they came to him too. He was he said, Mom, there is a little man in sitting there and he heard someone your bathroom, an old man in your come in. He didn’t even look, he bathroom. I’m afraid of the little man. thought it was little Gary [Sappier He would stay up, no matter how late Jr.], Gary’s son now. When he did they play. Norma said, I wouldn’t turn around, he saw them. Same thing leave him alone, just in case he wakes when Tommy [Sappier] died, they up while I’m gone. really scared Tina’s [Tina Branch] Alice: Some stories you hear about them little boy. What’s his name? Not are okay. But some of them, like you Tommy, but the other one. are saying now, makes my hairs stand Pious: Well, tell her what happened. up on ends. Harriet: When the little boy was going Pious: The unknown. to the bathroom, he went in to use the Harriet: If you aren’t afraid of them, you bathroom, there was this little man have nothing to fear. standing there. Right by the bath tub. Pious: That’s right. That kid came running out. And END OF TAPE

218 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

15. Cimsahna – lets go gather firewood

JOHN ARNOLD SACOBIE PILICK / KINGSCLEAR

In the morning, my grandfather said, Cimsahna [lets go gather firewood]. And I said, it’s too hot. He said, Grammy is coming too. So I said, let’s go then.

We used a skiff and paddled down Oromocto way. So we picked up driftwood. It looked so nice and they brought a lot of food. And when we got there it was about five o’clock. My grandfather had bad legs, so I carry the wood most of the time. So I made two trips, and when I got it there, I had to saw the wood. I said, Dad, what do we need all that wood for, it’s so hot. You have so much wood there. You better start thinking about when it gets colder.

Alice: Everybody knows you as Johnny brought me up and we were very poor Arnold. What is your real name? down there. When my father died, my John: John Sacobie. mother started working, until she Alice: Were you born and raised in found another man. His name was Oromocto? Walter Saulis from Tobique. Me, John: I was born in Oromocto. Yes. Stevie and Clifford would throw Alice: Who is your mom and dad? rocks at him, when she was going out John: My mom is Annie Saulis, my with him. We didn’t want her to get father is Richard Sacobie. married again. He would come Alice: Did they pass anything on to you, around, he would come around again, when like you were growing up, your and they did finally get married. My Mom and Dad, like basket making? mother used to get my father’s money John: Well, my Mom didn’t hardly from the army. When she got married, make baskets. When we were living they stopped that. We wanted for in Oromocto, she used to work in nothing and we never went hungry. town. She was working for the white We had clothes and food and when people. My father, I don’t remember they got married everything stopped. him. He died when I was seven. I I started working and I was just a kid never seen him, so I don’t know him. peeling pulp. So, when I was growing up, Maggie Alice: What years was that?

219 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

John: 1946-1947, we started peeling asked me if I ate yet and I said, no, pulp for, Suwahsin, his real name was not yet. So he said, eat. So we ate. He John Paul. Package of tobacco a week said, stay here. They treated me well. was what he paid us. Me and his son In the morning, my grandfather said, Willard, that was his son’s name. We Cimsahna [lets go gather fire wood]. used a horse in the summertime and And I said, it’s too hot. He said, we’d spend the night in the woods. Grammy is coming too. So I said, Make fire and it was so hot. And he’d let’s go then. We used a skiff and take Indian food and make bread right paddled down Oromocto way. So we there in the woods. Boil potatoes and picked up drift wood. It looked so fish. We ate pretty good. On Friday’s nice and they brought a lot of food. we got paid tobacco and matches. And when we got there it was about That’s all I wanted as long as I ate. five o’clock. My grandfather had bad My mother asked him where I got the legs, so I carry the wood most of the tobacco… She said I shouldn’t be time. So I made two trips, and when I smoking, you’re so young… got it there, I had to saw the wood. I Alice: What kind of work did you do for said, Dad, what do we need all that him? wood for, it’s so hot. You have so John: Who, Suwahsin? much wood there. You better start Alice: Peeling pulp? thinking about when it gets colder. He John: …I’d go and see Pat. Pat wanted me to go out in the morning Polchies, Smiley is what they called and I asked him why. He needed him. He asked me what I was doing wood for, ax handles. We cut down and I said, nothing. He said, let’s go about four trees and he made the ax fishing. We made our own fishing handles. He didn’t make baskets that pole, with string for our fishing line. much. I don’t know how much they So we went fishing at the wharf with got for their stuff, as long as someone Royden. We fished for smelts and eats. We never used to go hungry… eels. I don’t eat the eels, but the And Suwahsin [John Paul], he would smelts are pretty good. We ran out of always put a net out fishing for bait, so I said, let’s get worms or salmon. They depended on salmon, frogs. We tore them in half, the frogs. they smoked the salmon. He used to We take all the eels to Suwahsin, go with Ritchie or Lawrence and his because they eat them. I’d go home son. Debson didn’t know too much and my mother asked me where I about fishing. Solomon Paul, when he was. And I told her we went fishing. got salmon, he gave it all away to the And she said not to bring the eels Indians. He never sold them. What’s here. I go up to my grandmother’s, the sense in selling them, nobody Louise and Pete, that’s Peter Atwin wouldn’t have anything to eat. [Pihyel Missel] my grandfather. He Alice: How many families were there,

220 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

when you were there? John: Acimsek (Jemseg)? When I was a John: I would say about twenty families. child, I never went there. Alice: Is that including you, when you Alice: What about Brown’s Flat? were there? John: Not that much. We spent a lot of John: Yes. time up river. My grandfather, most Alice: How many moved back? of what I recall, would be Oromocto John: Lawrence Paul moved back, Levi Island. Sabattis moved back, my grand- Alice: Is that Oromocto Island haunted? mother moved back. Tom Atwin John: Yes. moved back here, but then he moved Alice: Have you experienced anything back up. And Benjamin. Lawrence up there on Oromocto Island? Paul moved back, then back here. John: I never stayed there night times. Then when his wife died, he moved When we used to move down here, back to Welmooktuk (Oromocto). Whalen and Bakum— Bakum was They must have moved back about the Chief. Whalen was a cheat, you four time, they didn’t like it up here. know him too. Suwahsin was Chief That Solomon Paul, made a garden, then and they had a meeting. Whalen cucumbers, potatoes, carrots, turnips. said they won’t want for anything, so It was just a small garden. We’d clean they moved up to Kingsclear. If they it for him in the evening, and nobody moved up, we would get chickens, stole from him. He put a fence around pigs and cows and you’d have a farm. it and he had a good view of his My mother moved up to Kingsclear garden, so no one would steal from and I didn’t know where it was. He’ll him. And the dog was there too. use us pretty good ,that Indian agent Alice: Those families, including you said, we’d have a farm. She said the too, did they make baskets? houses would be nice and we were John: Not everybody made baskets, my talked into it. It was in the spring mother, just once in a while. Solomon when we moved. I asked my mother, Paul and John Coon Sacobie were the where are those houses. And now, main ones who made the baskets. where the band hall sits, there was a And Mitchell, he made them. Johnny field there. There was a row of army Mike, I don’t think he knew how to tents, had to live there. We were put, make them. Minnie Mike made we had three tents, Mom, Clifford quilts. Big Minnie. and Stevie. Look how good our home Alice: How old were you when you left is, at least when we were in Oromocto? Oromocto we had a house. There John: I was seven. were no bathrooms. Pat moved up in Alice: When you left there, do you a couple of days. Johnny Mike and remember Jemseg area? Or any of Mitchell and Noel By, that’s where those islands there? they had to live too, in tents. We

221 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

never got anything that was promised pick potatoes. My mother said when to us. So we went looking around, we get back, our house will be ready. me, Pat, William to see the people. Before we got done picking potatoes Frank, let’s go get water, there was a we saw a truck coming. And I said, spring there. The girls wanted to fight what is that, homely houses being us and we didn’t even know who they hauled, not put together. were. And I told Mike Tomah, I’m When they got here they were not not going there, those girls want to assembled. They got the houses from fight. And that boy was so small. I Ripples. Army houses. They brought told him next time I come, I’m bring- ten that were not assembled. They ing a slingshot. I told my mother we were homely, when they got assem- are not going to visit because they bled, there were no windows and no want to fight us. doors. I said to my mother, which one Alice: You didn’t know anyone? is our house? She picked one and John: I didn’t know anyone. We didn’t said, that one, number nine, that will make friends with anyone. Molly be our house. I said, house? I Jack went sneaking around to get wouldn’t call that a house. And she water and they wanted to fight her, said, well, we’re going to go pick and they knocked her pail from her potatoes tomorrow. The farmer’s hands. We walked down the road and going to pick us up. And he picked us we seen a row of houses. They have up. After picking we bought clothing. homes and we have tents. Noel After we moved back we had to move Francis and my wife’s father, Joe into the tent, the same one, and it was Solomon, Gabe Solomon, Pihyel so cold. I told my mother we’re going Tomah, Bakum and Wey. Wey Solo- to freeze if we spend the night here. mon lived down the hill, and Eliza- Then it started to snow and I am not beth Polchies. There used to be a road lying. We had to stay in tents while it down there. The place looked dull, so snowed; and the little shelter that we went to the shore of the river. I Walter made, where my mother did said, look at all these rocks. In her cooking. She said, okay, now we Oromocto the river shore is dirt, but have to try to move into our house. I here it’s all rocks. I said, let’s go over said, let’s stay here for a while. When where the Indian agent lives. When we moved in—and I am not lying— we got there (pause) Where I live Mitchell, Tom Atwin, Bakum, Johnny now, there was a barn there and an Mike attached tarpaper where the orchard where we would go steal windows are suppose to be and on the apples. He wouldn’t give us apples. door. And there’s no out house and it As we left, I said, Pat, where are we was so cold when you woke up. No going to live? Pat said, I don’t know. water, you had to carry your water And when spring came, we went to from up the hill where we were. For a

222 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

long time, we didn’t have any win- Alice: That’s all? dows. John: And they used to use glass to Alice: After you got settled here, after smooth it. you came back here, did you make Alice: What kind of glass? baskets? John: Bottle glass; or sometimes they John: My stepfather taught me how to would break a window, so they could make baskets and my mother, my use the glass. They sold fast. I imag- mother had taught me a bit, Maggie. I ine when someone makes four ax started making baskets, but I couldn’t handles a day, that’s your living. And make fancy baskets. because everything used to be inex- Alice: Did they use colour? What kind? pensive. Just like I was saying a while John: Yes, there was red, blue, pink, and ago, my mother had a ration card, yellow. They used dye, they used to because food was rationed during the get from Fredericton. depression. Just like butter, sugar, you Alice: Colour wasn’t homemade? had to have that coupon. We used to John: No, they used to buy it. get credit at a store… And every time Alice: Do you know anything about my mother got her pension, you anyone making a birch bark canoe? would go pay your bill. We never John: Around here, no. They used to went hungry, like the others did. make small—Noel Francis, they used When we moved here and I tell you to make, they were only four feet about Whalen. That spring he said, I long. am bringing goats. And the Indians Alice: What did he do with them? must have got together, we were John: He sold them. Do you know given two goats and six hens. And I White Pete [Peter L. Paul] from told my mother, okay, this is our Woodstock? Noel used to sell all that farm. We will have to milk the goats stuff to him. I don’t know what White every morning and we’ll have to Pete did with the stuff… Same as drink goats milk. I said, I am not Oromocto, they did not use any dye. going to drink the milk. She said Their baskets were plain. Solomon nothing will happen. Well you didn’t Paul, they used to make old baskets strain it or anything, bring it inside, and not potato baskets. because there was no fridges. You Alice: What about ax handles? have to drink it after. Then Whalen John: Ax handles? My grandfather used came to get the chickens, after they to make and my uncle Tom Kiwow. grew, he said, take the goats. There You’d get about fifty cents apiece. was no cows, or things that he had Alice: What kind of tools did they have promised us. In 1953, Wimpy to make those? [Charles Solomon Sr.] became Chief John: They used a drawknife, crooked and you would go cut pulp. That’s all knife. that was here, all for people to do.

223 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

They also had a Sakwakon [sawmill] they didn’t want to get them. only Whalen would hire just certain Clifford [Sacobie] said, what Whalen people. As fall progressed and you would do is go sell the better clothes couldn’t get food anywhere, Whalen in Hartland. The blankets we got were gave you an order. Only five or ten really rough and scratchy and were dollar order and then you had to pay really worn. it back. It was from Lewises or One night we got dressed, me, Pat and Goodines you received your order. Bill. Breeches, high boots and red One time, sitting around my mother’s coats and the hats. We went and place, someone came knocking on the stopped cars and then we stopped a door. It was Wimpy, he dragged out a mountie. There was no way he could half a goat. He said, we will not go have caught us on Chapel road. hungry, because of this powdered Whalen said, if I find out who it was milk and the hard tacks. Army ones, that dressed like a mountie, we’ll put that was dog food! You had to soak them away forever. Ever since that them in water and you had to eat time, I don’t know what they did with them. Goat meat is tasty. You have to the clothes. I think they went and sold eat it or you go hungry, everyone ate them. This guy Joe sold them to St. it. They didn’t have to, they ate a lot Mary’s somewhere. better, the Chief and Whalen. What Alice: Up on Chapel Road, there’s a we wore here was mountie [RCMP] foot print on a rock. Do you know clothes, we would get them every six anything about that? months. Whalen would take for John: Yes. Taber’s. Molly Frenchman himself the good clothes, shoes, told me about that. She said that a Kci pants, blankets and gloves and Motewolon (person with powers) mounties hats and go around selling used to be there. But this white man them. And what’s left over, we had to was putting up a fence, but he went pick from. A lot of times, we were over the property line. He was not dressed nice. And people would think suppose to extend it over to Indian we were mounties, with that long property. And every time that boots and big fur coats. I remember Motewolon went there, the fence had me, Pat and (pause) been moved. So the Motewolon Alice: Those clothes, everybody got would take it off, but again in the them, eh? Every Indian on the re- morning, the white man would have serve? moved it again. John: Anybody, could get them. The Motewolon got angry, so he took Woodstock, Neqotkuk (Tobique), the rock and throw it fifty feet and Sitansisk (St. Mary’s) and climbed up on the rock. And said, I Welmooktuk (Oromocto), they all got am telling you now, there will be them if they wanted them. I guess nobody on this earth that can move

224 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

this rock and nothing will ever grow and when I was coming someone here on this hill and nobody will ever threw rocks at me. When I looked, be able to live here. And he placed his nobody was around. Just as soon as I gun butt there. Now if anybody were came to the turn I thought to myself, I to go see the rock, the footprint and am not staying here even for a while. gunprint are still there. I went to see When I came home I told my wife this two years ago, me and a white someone threw rocks at me. Another woman who wanted to see it. Some- time, sometimes when somebody one must have got a jackhammer and goes hunting, guys; when someone tried to it cut up, but they couldn’t do looks they see someone running it. That rock is still there at the field, across the field. It’s a scary place. anybody could go see it. One time Pat and I went there to go Alice: We’re going tomorrow to see it. jacking one night. I said, we can sleep John: Sometimes during the day it’s right here… We couldn’t stand it. haunted and in the evening the devil Sometimes the wind would pick up lives there. Anybody will tell you that and when we came out, there was when people were hunting and work- nothing. We left and I said, this place ing pulp; every time somebody goes is haunted. Same with Stevie up there, somebody leaves from the [Sacobie], same with him, he went pathway going out. Somebody fol- jacking at the orchard. He had his car lows only as far as the field. Some- there. times all they see is a shadow coming Alice: How long ago was that? and this presence is tall and does not John: About two or three years ago. He speak. This Debson was cutting pulp said someone took hold of the car and and I saw a Mochant [bad being] started shaking it. Somebody almost coming towards me. I stopped walk- tipped it over. Stevie said, I don’t ing again, it started walking again at know how the car made the turn. the end of the field. Another night Clifford and Douglas Alice: Why is that? Why does it do that? Atwin went there and had some John: It does not want anybody to drinks. Clifford said, we were getting bother anything there. drunk and then someone started Alice: Anybody ever take pictures shaking the car. And I woke up and I there? told Douglas, look over there, there is John: Not as long as I can remember. It someone standing there. Clifford said might not be good. The camera might the man standing there was about ten break, someone will just have to try. I feet tall. It sobered us up… He said went there one day. I am not lying, he would never go there again to during the day, coming towards me, drink. there are ktopeqisol (spring water) Alice: Does anybody go there these there too. I went to drink from one days?

225 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

John: Every once in a while someone I think he was the only one that cured will go up there. hide. I don’t think anybody else knew Alice: Do they say anything about how. I think just white people today. anything going on up there? He used to stretch it and leave it there John: Maybe it’s just certain ones. Kids for a month. go up there, it must not want to upset Alice: Do you remember anybody ever, any kids. It must be just grown-ups. like marriages for instance, did any- Alice: Do you know anything about body ever arrange marriages for other ‘little people’? people? John: No, I have never seen them. But I John: No. Like someone picking a was told stories about them. Tom certain person to marry? No. My Atwin told me that when he worked mother tried to pick a wife for me. I at the school, he used to take a short said, Mom, I will, and not you, will cut. One morning as he was walking pick the woman. Because I am the along, he heard something by the one that is going to marry her. brook. He sneaked up on them and Alice: How long have you been mar- there they were frolicking. There ried? were seven of them. When they saw John: Thirty-five years. We only have him, they were like mosquitoes, they one kid, that’s all my wife wanted. I took right off. Again the next week, said, why do we need a lot of kids? If same thing, and when he got to the I can’t feed them, that’s it. spot where they were, they were Alice: When you were growing up and gone. He only lived for another year, the older people, what kind of enter- they say that if you see them they are tainment did they have? What did bad luck. Used to be they used to they do? frolic at the dam. The area used to be John: In Oromocto, mostly they had called Frankisisk. Because Joe Solo- dances. They danced every night, mon told me that you could see traces that’s all. of where they were. You could see Alice: Who played music? Who played their little castles. But nobody will what? see them, he said, the area that they John: This Ahtuwensis and Ceclawew left was so nicely arranged. They say and Lawrence Paul. They would that they are hairy. I don’t think dance. My great grandmother, anybody sees them today. Maggie’s mother, Molly was her Alice: What about moose hide or deer name. She was blind, she played the hide? What did they use them for, do piano. I remember her, she used to you know? call me Mikmahsis. John: The person that used them was She said, one night when we were all Bakum, he used to skin it and cure it dancing, in walks Sakomawi for snowshoes and for lacrosse sticks. Wehnoch [stranger]. He was dressed

226 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

so nice, and his violin was so shiny. woman, she said, Molly look at his When he started to play, you didn’t feet. One of his legs is a horse’s leg. even know what he was playing, He is not a person, he is the devil. because he was so skilful with the Well, I’ll go get the priest. violin. But there was this other older When the priest got there, he saw the

Plate 15.1: From Kingclear, the storyteller, Mary "Mali" "Policaman" Francis (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1883).

227 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

stranger and he went to get holy leg looked like, because it was all water and sprinkled it on the stranger. hairy. They said someone better get a And he went right through the floor. Motewolon. So they went to get Wey, The priest said, you play music too because he was a Motewolon down much every night. You finally beck- there. But his power wasn’t strong oned the devil, you have to stop enough. playing music. Well then they said, let’s get a priest. So Alice: How could that be? they got a priest, the priest smeared John: It’s true, they say it is really true. something on his throat. And all they Alice: That’s the only entertainment. heard was bells. And sure enough, he Did they play cards? went right through the floor. The John: Not that much. And another night, priest said, you are playing cards too they were playing—I guess, yes, they much. Molly Frenchman [Mrs Frank did play cards. All of a sudden— Francis] said that the men got to- somebody was sliding with a tobog- gether and went looking for lumber to gan most of the night, at this place try to fix the floor of the dance hall, called Elomakqek. That’s what Eliza- they couldn’t do it. They finally had beth used to call it. A spirit and they to wreck the hall. Molly Frenchman didn’t see it anywhere. So they [Mrs Frank Francis] told me this one. stopped playing cards and it never Her husband, his name was Weasel happened again. [Frank Francis] He said, Molly, I am When we first moved here, this Molly tired of looking at this rock here. Frenchman [Mrs Frank Francis] used Noel Francis said, I remember the to tell me these really older woman rock being there. He [Weasel] said, and men used to, say, we should play someday I am going to throw this cards all night. Every once in a while, rock away, because every time we go they would go play at one house and out, I hit this rock with my ankle. And then they would play at another’s, you don’t get around that good either. then finally there wasn’t any. She said, how could you lift that, They agreed that there should be a Weasel? You’re so small and that is a dance, so every night there was a big rock. I’ll show you someday! dance. There used to be a hall down One day they went out. And he said, the hill, further down from the okay, I think I am ready to throw this church. They started playing music, rock. You have to turn around and not and again a stranger walked in and he watch me. She said, why should I started to play too. They allowed him have to turn around? And he said, I to play. am telling you turn around. So Molly And again a man said, look at that turned around and she said she could stranger’s feet. This is a different hear her husband gaining strength. being. They couldn’t tell what his one And when she turned around, she saw

228 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 15.2: From Kingsclear, left to right: Mrs. Noel John Sappier, Mrs. Frank Francis (the storyteller), Mrs. Peter Sappier; standing, Oliver Fallis, ca. 1923 (The University of New Brunswick Archives, 74-17367).

fire in his eyes. Suddenly, the rock here now, this is where I grew up. was thrown, it was thrown ten feet. When I moved here I was only seven And he said, okay, I told you I will years old. What good would it do? throw this rock. She said, you must Alice: What were people like here as have powers. He said, well, I can’t you got older? Did they dance, did tell you how powerful I am. Why do they play instruments? you think they call me Weasel? John: Well, they used to dance a lot They’re also good singers. here, because they used to bring a Alice: So what was life like, after you white person and teach at the old moved up here? school. Eugene Paul from Devon John: Not too good, until I got used to used to come join in the dances. it. They used to ask me, would you Square dances mostly. It was so much move back to Welmooktuk fun and we’d play cards in the (Oromocto) if given a chance? I said evening. Or Sunday nights we would no, why should I move back? I live have raffles most of the night. Poker.

229 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

And during lent they would play they would leave this place and go to Parcheesi. But as time went on, there Saint John. They would leave by was hardly anything. Indian genera- canoe, go pick sweet grass there and tion is starting to disappear. then would spear fish. And would go Alice: Did you pick fiddleheads? as far as Saint John and then would John: We used to pick at Savage Island paddle back. It took a while, but they all the time. And Mirimachi and up had fun. But now, you don’t see by Rossy Brook, before the dam was anybody doing these things. built. END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE Alice: Do you remember anything TAPE ONE SIDE TWO taking place at Savage Island a long Alice: What about Indian medicine, time ago? anybody tell you anything about John: I remember they used to have Indian medicine? Fiddlehead Festival there, people John: The only one that told me about from St. Mary’s. Indian medicine is my grandmother. Alice: Yes, there used to be a traditional Calamus root for colds and some wedding there. They had a man, Ian flower. I don’t think anybody knows. Tyson, there. Maybe David Solomon probably John: Just like Oromocto a long time knows. ago, they used to have a fireman’s Alice: What is that? picnic. It was a week long. Where the John: Flowers, flowers, medicine. old town used to be there was a small Alice: I heard about golden rod. I think field there, that’s where this hap- it’s golden rod, when a baby has pened. Dances, they had Ned Landry, sores. he would play at these dances every John: Same with yellow root, they’re night. They had bingos, but there good. would also be fights. Natives and Alice: Anybody ever use them? whites, the drinkers. There would be John: My mother used them on Labell, a picnic in Oromocto in June. They Freda and Caroline [Saulis] when called it Oromocto picnic, but now they were younger. We used to go they don’t have anything down there. pick them for her. You pick them But here they have St. Anne’s day on early, when someone has sores in the the 27th and we have that every year. mouth, that’s what you use. She never Alice: What about fishing, did anyone used golden rod, just the yellow root. ever do spear fishing? Alice: Does anybody use Indian medi- John: No, not when we were young. But cine these days? the older ones like Joe Solomon, John: No, just Calamus root. I use cedar Wimpy, that’s all they used to do is boughs. I boil cedar boughs when I fish. Wimpy was telling me a couple have a cold. I boil cedar boughs and weeks ago, that starting in August, after they boil, I leave them simmer-

230 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

ing in my water. And if you want to Alice: There’s four houses, I think that’s throw in Calamus root it’s all right, all. That’s down by the water, eh, in it’s really good. A lot of times, I told Oromocto? white people from town to use them. John: Yes, over here is another house. But they probably say, oh, this Indian John Coon lives near where Missel does not know anything. It’s not good lived, it’s not on this picture. There to use white man medicine, because used to be a field, where this road they are trying to kill us. leads to the main road. Railroad Alice: That’s what Wimpy says too. tracks used to be there too. John: Wimpy knows about Indian Alice: It was in 1953? medicine, but he says he knows little. John: It was 1945. I went to spend the A while back he took me to Presque night at Solomon Paul’s and I went to Isle to pick Calamus root. He said, spend the night at Ceclawew’s place you don’t pick them, you put your once. hand in the water. There’s a place Alice: What year was this car anyway? down here in a pond, but I don’t John: 1940 something. It’s not know where. But this brother and his Suwahsin’s car, maybe John Sabattis’. sister, Melvina, used to pick it there. Because in Welmooktuk (Oromocto) You have to get a part of the root, the only person with a car was John then you hang it until it dries, then it’s Sabattis and Ahtuwen [John’s good. Reggie Paul from Woodstock brother]. That was all. used to tell me, if you take the Cala- Alice: Back then did they travel by mus root, don’t boil it, you use it right canoes everywhere? away and keep it in your mouth. It’s John: Canoes and train. really strong when you use it like Alice: How much did it cost? that. John: From Oromocto until Fredericton Alice: See this picture, I got that from a by train is twenty-five cents. Or if girl in Oromocto. They have five or they travel to Menahqesk [Saint six houses there. I’ve got a photocopy John], they went by train. They didn’t and I was just wondering if you could have any buses then. ah (pause) My mother had a car it was a 1937 Ford. John: I’ll tell you who lives where and My mother took us one year to their names. Suwahsin [John Paul], Menahqesk [Saint John]. Her, Kalel [Clara] his wife; Willard Paul. Maggie, Clifford and Steve. And my They are all dead. John Coon [John mother didn’t have a license. I don’t Sacobie]; Stella, his wife; Ceclawew know how she made it to Saint John, [John F. Sabattis] and his wife Molly I think she paid twenty-five dollars Dell; their kids [Royden, Ambrose]; for it. Solomon A. Paul and wife, Sarah Alice: Gee, that was a loss, your mother Paul. passing away. I went to see her that

231 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Thursday to see if she was okay. I Karen, my boss from work. And she was in the house talking to her. I said that she had passed away. My wanted to get to know her better, so I God, I couldn’t believe it. could ask if I could tape her. Gee, John: She had a hard life… next thing I know I got a call from END OF TAPE

232 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

16. Baskets at Gilbert’s Island

NORMAN AND JEANETTE SACOBIE WELMOOKTUK/OROMOCTO FIRST NATION

I know some used to go to Middle Island and Gilbert’s Island to make baskets… Suwahsin Paul and John Sacobie himself used to cut wood. I was with them a few times, when they used to get basket wood. - Norman Sacobie

I made baskets since I was four years old with my mother down the hill. I made my first basket, my mother was telling me (pause) - Jeanette Sacobie

Alice: Norman, are you originally from Norman: Yes. Oromocto? Alice: When you were growing up here Norman: Yes. I was born here and all in Oromocto, what kind of life did my family moved to Kingsclear, but you have? we still remained members of the Norman: I didn’t live here too long band here. I was in the hospital when really, until I was fourteen. Fourteen they made a transfer. Indian Affairs or fifteen. It wasn’t much of a life, so used to make transfers without we I took off down to the States. Stayed even knowing it. So when I finally there for a while, came back broke. come around, I realized I didn’t know Alice: Who was your mom and dad? I was a member of the Kingsclear Norman: Annie Saulis and Richard band. Sacobie. She just died recently. Alice: You didn’t know? Alice: So sorry about that. I was just Norman: No. talking with her recently, on a Thurs- Alice: How many of you here? day. I was talking to her because I Norman: My family? wanted to tape her. And the next Alice: Yes, your family. thing, I heard that she was in the Norman: Just me and my brother hospital, and that was sad. Rufford. Norman: I couldn’t go see her while she Alice: Rufford is the Chief here? was in the hospital.

233 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 16.1: Norman Sacobie (photo courtesy of Shirley Sacobie).

234 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: So growing up here, like when nets for shad or smaller size fish, for you came back from the States, did gaspereau. you do any hunting and fishing? Alice: When you fished do you remem- Norman: Oh, yes. ber anybody spear fishing for Alice: Could you tell me a little about salmon? that? Norman: No, I wasn’t around here then. Norman: Well, we had no guns, no Alice: No. What about fiddleheading? vehicles, no nothing. And it was Norman: Oh, yeah. Me and John did pretty hard eating at times. A lot of quite a bit of that. times, we were eating porridge three Alice: Where did you do that? times a day. So John, my wife’s Norman: Just on the islands over here. father, he had an old shotgun over the Wherever we could paddle. He had door. And he didn’t want anybody to quite a big canoe them days and a use it. So I kind of sweet talked Stella (pause) until she said okay, take it, take it. We Alice: You have quite a few islands up could buy shells one at a time in them around this way. days, so I went up and bought a Norman: I didn’t know how many until couple of shells. And I got a couple of I began working with fisheries. And rabbits that afternoon. Everybody had Alex Coy he a little feast. And shortly after that, he showed me every island from here to loaned me the gun all the time; until I Saint John. was able to buy my own rifle. Alice: Is there names for the islands? Alice: So John Sacobie was your father- Norman: There’s a name for every in-law? island. Norman: Yes. Alice: Think you could give me a few? Alice: I hadn’t had a chance to talk to Norman: Yeah, I suppose. John, because he had passed away Alice: Well, there’s Gilbert’s Island. too. Norman: Gilbert’s Island, Middle Is- Norman: Poor John. land, Ox Island, Ram Island, Alice: And it’s pretty hard to find, like Griswald. the older people, they’re slowly Alice: Grimross dying. Norman: Then there is Gagetown Is- Norman: Dying off. land, Long Island, Upper and Lower Alice: And they’re going fast. What Musquash about fishing? Island, Never’s Island, Spoon Island and Norman: Fishing, like what do you some that (pause) mean? Just rod and reel? Alice: Did you ever go fiddleheading Alice: No. How did they fish back then? around Indian Point? What did they use? Norman: I never. Norman: They used shad nets. Like gill Alice: No?

235 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Norman: No, but I have fiddleheaded in Get an old pot, mix ashes and water. Jemseg. Lower Cambridge. And just get an old stick with a rag Alice: The Jemseg area, do you know wrapped around it, use that as a guide anything about that? Where they were mark along with that. And pound digging, was it a stop over place for along that black strips, until we went people, do you remember anything all over the stick. like that? Alice: Was there a lot of basket makers Norman: I don’t remember anything, down here? but from what I’ve seen today (pause) Norman: No. Actually, that site was well known Alice: No, how many? before it got to the media. There was Norman: There was the wife’s father a lot of people down there, got arti- and mother, and Stella’s father. facts from there right in their houses Alice: Who would be Stella’s father? and they won’t give them up. That Norman: That would be Suwahsin Paul. was only until they found out that Alice: What was his real name? they were going to put the road Norman: John. And there was a few through there, that they decided to let others like John’s sister, Annabelle. the Indians know about it. But some And then there Indians knew about it already and was Lawrence Paul and there wasn’t too from there (pause) many. So the wife and I took it up and Alice: Did anyone ever tell you that she just quit here two years ago, her Indians used to stop over there to hands were bugging her. make baskets? Alice: What kind of baskets? Norman: Not in that particular spot. I Norman: Just about anything going. know some used to go to Middle Alice: Fancy baskets, potato baskets? Island and Gilbert’s Island to make Norman: Fancy, potato, fiddlehead baskets. baskets. I really like making fish Alice: Like who? baskets, creels Norman: Suwahsin Paul and John they’re called. And there was a time Sacobie himself used to cut wood. I when I had two dozen or more hang- was with them a few times, when ing on the wall. People came in and they used to get basket wood. buy them right off the wall. Alice: Did you ever pound ash for Alice: Do you have any of those baskets them? left, are those two there that you Norman: Oh, yeah. made? Alice: How did you go about doing Norman: Oh, yeah. I made that one, that that? What did you have to use? one and there is a few downstairs. Norman: It’s an old, blunt pole ax, with Alice: Do you think it would be possible a straight handle on it. You strip the if we photographed your baskets? bark off the wood. Mix some ashes. Norman: Sure.

236 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: It won’t be today though, maybe Norman: To make them? like, I’ll set a time and (pause) Alice: Yes. Norman: I’ll probably be working by Norman: They had store-bought then, but Jeanette probably will drawknives, a few of them had accommodate you. homemade crooked knives. I got Alice: So when you came back from the interested in that, so I started making States you were fifteen, sixteen, what them and I sold quite a few. kind of activities went on here, like Alice: Do you remember glass ever entertainment for the older people? being used. Norman: Mostly on Sundays, they Norman: Oh, yes. would get together and have raffles Alice: What kind of glass? for pies and cakes and stuff like that. Norman: Just like any busted glass they And once in a while, throughout the can get a hold of. evening nights, they play cards. Alice: Do you have to shape them in Alice: Did they ever do any dancing? order to use it? Norman: None that I remember. Norman: No, they just picked the sharp- Alice: I remember on St. Mary’s, my- est part of the glass edge and just self, I remember just the one time scraped the they would go dance at someone’s handles. house. They would move the old Alice: Any kind of glass? stove and the pipes, get everything Norman: Just about, mostly just ordi- out of the way and they play fiddle nary window pane that was broken. and square dance, I think. Alice: That was very thin back then, Norman: No, I never seen anything like those windows. I remember them on that. my mother’s house. I’ve never seen Alice: Let’s talk about marriages back anybody use glass, but we’re just then. Were marriages arranged for finding out that people did use glass people? to shape the ax handles to smooth Norman: Not that I know of. them out. Alice: What about Jeanette, would she Norman: They did. There is another know anything about that, probably fellow, Donald Paul. He’s dead now, not, eh? he got killed on the boating accident. Norman: Probably not, I didn’t know of Alice: That was Elizabeth’s son? any. Norman: I seen him make ax handles, Alice: Was there anything passed on to not shave them or anything. He was you from an older person? real good with the ax at making Norman: Basket making, ax handles. handles. He didn’t have to shave it or Alice: What kind of tools did they use even sand it. I still have one of his ax for ax handles? Or even basket mak- that he had made, so he was really ing? good at it. Even though he had poor

237 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

eyes, he really amazed a lot of people Wilfred or somebody. I made it years at what he could do. ago. And there’s another rig there, to Alice: What did he do? thin your splints down, it’s over Norman: He took up carpentry, cabinet Alfred’s I believe. I use it every year. making, a couple of years before he One year we made baskets all winter died. here. There was a fellow coming back Alice: I met up with Arthur Atwin and hiking from PEI to Maine. It was he is into carpentry, cabinet making. I minus 30 degrees and he came with a was talking to George and he’s into bag of ash from Maine and I would that, he has his own shop there. buy it off of him. And we’d got right Norman: Jack, he was getting an old age to town downstairs. Buddy had them pension, at one time he worked at the all cut and shaved, we didn’t have to Base (CFB). He said, I don’t need work them at all, just start making that pension. So he just took it on his baskets. own, the carpentry, bought his own Alice: Where did you get your ash? tools, built his own little house. And Norman: We got ours here on the is- from there on, he started making lands or over where the Dutch people furniture. live in Maugerville. But now they’re Alice: No training of any kind? (pause) Norman: No training. His grandfather Alice: Getting kind of scarce? Suwahsin Paul, he lived with him. Norman: Not only that, the people won’t And that’s where he picked up a lot, a let us on their land. There’s gates and lot of wood working . barbed wire, whatever, to keep us out. Alice: That’s the thing nowadays. The Alice: What did you do with your older ones they try to pass on to their baskets when you made them? sons all the things that they did a long Norman: Just made our own market and time ago. Some pick it up and some sell them. don’t. When John, your father-in-law, Alice: Did you ever trade them for food made baskets what kind of tools did or goods? he have. Norman: I never, but I was told that old Norman: He just had a crooked knife, a Solomon Paul and some people drawknife, well, another ax and glass would walk to Geary. There was no to smooth. And when he could afford Geary at the time, I don’t think it was it he would buy sandpaper. name Geary. But they would be gone Alice: And that was it, that was all the for two or three days trading baskets tools that he had? for food. Norman: Well, outside of the shaving Alice: A lot of people down here horse. worked on farms? Alice: I remember those. Norman: Some, yes. Norman: I still have one, I loaned it to Alice: But not a lot of them?

238 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 16.2: Lawrence Paul and his wife Margaret Sacobie; Lawrence trapped with Norman Sacobie (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1904).

Norman: Some did it for spare money. Island, sometimes waves would be They helped with the harvest. They three or four feet. didn’t actually help planting seed or Alice: Did everybody have their own anything like that. None that I know territory for trapping? of anyway. Norman: Yeah, more or less. Alice: Did a lot of them fiddlehead? Alice: Were they marked? Norman: Yeah, pretty well everybody. Norman: We would, John and I. He Alice: What about trapping muskrats? knew a lot of people down river, they Norman: Yes, John and I and Lawrence didn’t mind if John went in and set a Paul did it, until Lawrence couldn’t few. I remember one fellow, Mokson, do it any more. So John and I went at he used to trap every year. John set a it for a couple of more years. trap about twenty feet from Ralph Alice: Where did you trap? Mokson, and once in a while John Norman: Right from here, clear on up to would take Ralph’s rat thinking that it way. And we’d was his. And I kept telling him, I paddle all the way down to Middle don’t think that’s our trap John. Oh,

239 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

yes, yes. So one day we met Ralph paddle, paddle. I didn’t mind. there taking a trap off, or taking a rat Alice: Actually paddling is good exer- off that particular trap. And we all got cise. I went up river couple weeks talking there and John said, Ralph, I ago and we went up all the way above didn’t know that was your trap. Ralph Sugar Island. And we paddled all the said, I felt like taking it off because I way down to Fredericton on a canoe. haven’t been catching anything on it First time I ever got in a canoe too. I anyway. And John took to laughing thought it was scary, but it was okay and he said, well no wonder, I got really. seven of it already. So he paid him Norman: I’ve had a canoe for quite a back. while, it’s under the porch there now. Alice: We was taking the rats and he It needs some work. thought he isn’t getting anything? Alice: What kind of canoe do you have? Norman: John was good that way, we Norman: Chestnut, old fashion one. I gave the seven rats back. That was couldn’t afford to put canvass on it, the only trap that Ralph had on this so I used fiberglass. And now the side. Well, he had an outboard motor fiberglass—I didn’t know that the and he could get around pretty good. wood was oiled—won’t stick onto Where as John and I had to paddle, that wood. So I bought a bunch of

Plate 16.3: Three people engaged in building a birch bark canoe (New Brunswick Museum, 00026#52).

240 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

ribbing for it last year, so as we get Alice: Well there’s Bangor, there’s Old working I am taking it down to Alec Town that way and there’s Princeton. Oisfeather, he builds boats and ca- Norman: I think it was Princeton. noes. Alice: Eastport, Sipayick and then Alice: Do you know anybody that ever there’s Dana Peter Point. made a birch bark canoe? Norman: It was either Eastport or Norman: Well I met a couple lads from Princeton. Jeanette would probably the States. I forgot his name now. He know. That fellow was pretty smart, looked more like a white man than an he taught us how to make arrow- Indian, but he could talk Indian better heads, start fire with no matches, than me. He had two handmade anything like that. canoes, birch bark. Alice: So how do you start a fire with Alice: You don’t know anybody from no match? Kingsclear, St. Mary’s that has made Norman: First get some birch bark or one? cedar bark and get the inner part of it. Norman: No, I don’t. Nice and dry, looks like hair, you Alice: I’ve seen an old photograph one could actually make rope out of it. time. I don’t know if it was down at Get a bunch of little shavings, what- the old reserve at St. Mary’s. There ever stock wood on the bottom, pine were about five or six men, they were and piece of hardwood stick about a putting together a birch bark canoe. foot long or so, sixteen inches. And Norman: I was going to try it myself then he makes like a bow with a one time, found this great big birch sting, wraps around that piece of over up the church road in hardwood and like he was playing a Maugerville, but I didn’t know a way fiddle or something. He would have a to get at it. Alfred and I were going to hardwood block up in his upper hand try it, just for the hell of it. and when it starts smoking, you just Alice: I guess they are pretty scarce, have a little knife and cut that fire birch bark canoes? out. Put it in the (pause) Norman: I have a few pictures of John Alice: Did you ever try it? holding one about that long. It was Norman: Yes. made by them boys from over States Alice: It worked? there, what do you call them? Norman: Worked the very best. Alice: Passamaquoddy? Alice: Did you ever go camping? Do Norman: Yes, they had a great big one you ever use it that way? here. We actually paddled around in Norman: No, I usually take steel wool it. and just light that up. And it’s better Alice: Had the birch bark on it? What than birch bark even, it will light right part of Maine? up. Norman: One of the reserves there. Alice: What about Indian medicine, do

241 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

you know anything about that? Alice: And you never lived up Norman: Not really. I watched John get Kingsclear? some, mostly that root that the musk- Norman: For about two or three weeks. rat eats a lot. And he just steeps that, Alice: That all? like if you have a sore throat or I find Norman: I did live there for one summer it works for colds. with Frank Sappier. Old Frank. Alice: It must be that Kiwhosuwasq? Alice: How did you find living there, Norman: And then he used to use gold and then coming here after? threads, get that under pine trees. Norman: Not too much difference. The When babies have sore mouth. only difference is more city life here, Alice: I heard my mother say that too while Kingsclear is more like out in one time. Calamus root also? the wild. Norman: Calamus root is same thing as Alice: I can’t say our reserve is isolated, Kiwhosuwasq. because we’re right there. When they Alice: What about moose hide? What made baskets, what did they use for was it used for? dye when they coloured their ash? Norman: The only thing I ever seen it Norman: Actually, we didn’t colour any used for was sell it, make a few baskets until we met a lady from dollars. Tobique, a Saulis lady. She put on a Alice: Anybody ever trap beavers down work project, leather work, basket this way? work and she introduced us to store Norman: Oh, yeah. I have, John and I. bought dye. That’s all we ever used. Alice: What did you do with them? Alice: I spoke to a woman in Kingsclear Norman: Skin them out, sell them. and she recalls, remembers using dye Alice: How much did you sell them for? from berries. Norman: Anywhere from twenty bucks Norman: Berries and roots I heard. up, forty bucks was considered real Alice: I asked her if she remembers good. Two or three a day sometimes anyone making yellow colour from (pause) onion skins. One Easter, I didn’t have Alice: What year are you talking, when any colour for the kids, eh. And I was you and John are hunting and fishing? thinking, well someone said onion Norman: Seventies. skins. So I boiled them and I got a Alice: But John done that for a long, yellow colour out of them. And I let long time. them dip their eggs in and they turned Norman: Oh, yeah, way, way before me. yellow. I am not up too much on reserve. I Norman: Was it smelly? was in the hospital, then they send me Alice: No. She said there was strawber- down that ‘nut house’ there, Shubbie ries, raspberries, blueberries, black- [Shubenacadie] for four years. I got berries, cherries that they used. Prob- out, I didn’t know anything. ably not everybody, because you can

242 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

buy dye in the store. not one nail in his basket. That’s like Norman: For one little package you what Ronnie Paul said too. When you could colour hundreds of splints. made baskets, where were nails years Alice: It would have to be good colour ago. You never see nails in baskets. to stay on there, eh? Norman: When I make them now, I use Norman: They boil it to make it stay in a—I make my own—they’re not better. nails, they’re pins. Then I paint them Alice: I have a basket at home, it’s got, I over on back end. I made this, I took think it’s red and blue or pink and jewellery and everything, make blue. But it’s all faded now though. jewellery downstairs or whatever. George Nash made it a long time ago. Alice: Yeah, you do make jewellery. Tell My son is twenty five this year, so me a little about that, how did you get that basket has got to be twenty-six or into that? twenty-seven years old. Like a Norman: I was working at the band clothes basket and I used it all on office and I was sick and tired of them, like my kids as a crib, eh, for everyone giving me hell all the time. them to sleep in. So I asked the band manager, where Norman: John would always say, we can I take up silver work, how to know how to make baskets, but we work with silver. There’s a craft don’t use our own Indian-made school right in Fredericton, it’s been hampers. We go buy plastic ones, sell there thirty some, forty years. I didn’t the ones we made. know anything about it. So I said, I Alice: I don’t think any basket maker want to put in for it, if I get it, I am keeps their own work. going to quit right here. Nobody Norman: I kept that one. I was putting believed me that I would leave, sure up a demonstration up the craft enough, that September I said I’ll see school and that was suppose to be a you. I was gone there and I went up fish basket. Everyone was adding to there four years. it, took their turn and it turned out to Alice: So what kind of jewellery you be a little pack basket. make? Alice: It’s nice too, it doesn’t have a nail Norman: Well, I made this. Sterling in it. That one up there has a nail in it. silver, suppose to be a letter opener. I I was over to Houlton, I was talking don’t have much right now, I sell to Fred Tomah, over there. But he’s whatever I can as quick as I can. related to Jim Tomah, Aubrey, Leo Alice: You use a lot of stones too? What Tomah. kind do you use? Norman: I know that Sappier that died, Norman: Yes, I cut my own stones. I get Tom Sappier. We stayed at his place people to bring me them, go over the when we were hiking on the road. States. Tommy, Joe, daughter Shirley, Alice: Anyway he makes baskets and they brought me some real nice

243 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

stones from Montreal. And I cut Norman: It was ‘60 something. them, polish them, shape them, set Alice: I’ve seen an old photograph from them in metal and sell them. one of the girls here. 1953, May, Alice: And you have been doing that for 1953—of the reserve when it was how long now? down that way. Norman: I’ve been doing that since ‘93. Norman: I was here once, when I came Alice: I find a lot of Indians go to that out of the hospital, went up to craft school, not for jewellery mak- Kingsclear. I stayed with Jim Atwin. ing, but for photography or art. They were good basket makers, him Norman: When I first started in there I and his wife. Veronie and I learned a didn’t know I had to take art, draw- lot from them too. So he said, do you ing, painting, photography. I said, want to go see some of your people in look, I didn’t come here to do this. So Oromocto. I said, yeah, sure. Me and I talked it over with the metal instruc- Winston Solomon got in the back of tor. And she said, you go home and this old half ton. Pretty near froze to come back a week after New Year’s, death, we had to wrestle each other to I’ll put you right into metal and metal keep warm. And he took us down the only. I said you got yourself a deal. hill there, but I can’t remember really That was the first year and three what it was like. I know it was old following years, I was there everyday shacks here and there. It looked that I wanted to be. terrible. But I seen two guys splitting Alice: You had to be there every day, wood. They went in and talked for a eh? while. We weren’t allowed in or Norman: No, not really. I was a part something, stayed in the truck and time student. froze. I didn’t mind, it was just a day Alice: Did you meet a lot of Indians of doing nothing. there? Alice: Did you ever associate with Norman: Quit a few. people from Kingsclear? Alice: What were they taking? Norman: Oh, yeah. I used to go from Norman: Most of them were into that housed to house talking, have tea, Indian studies, Gwen Orechia [Bear] lunch. was the instructor there. A few boys Alice: That’s the good thing about back from St. Mary’s, couple from then, you can go into anybody’s home Kingsclear, a lot of Micmac Indians and they tell you, eat or have a coffee from Miramichi way. I think one or or tea. Back then, nobody’s door was two from Nova Scotia. They took locked, you were welcome. It was mostly—few took jewellery—mostly more our way of living, I guess, but photography, drawing, painting. today it’s so different. You have to Alice: So, when you were fifteen, when lock your doors now. Call to see if you moved here, what year was that? anybody’s home, see if they’ll see you.

244 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 16.4: Jeanette Sacobie (photo courtesy of Shirley Sacobie)

Norman: Can’t leave anything outside, Alice: What kind of colouring did you lock it up. I bought an outboard motor use? and a nice boat one year. And I left it Jeanette: Oh, colouring, Veronica gave right down the shore, left my gas tank me some. there. Nothing was bothered. But Alice: Where did she get it? lately within the last ten years, you Jeanette: Over the States, I still got can’t even have an ax out there now. some there somewhere. Downstairs. Somebody will take it. Lock every- Alice: So you never made your own thing up. colouring for your baskets? Alice: Jeanette, tell me about the time Jeanette: Oh, yes. you and Norman made baskets with Alice: What did you use? your mom and dad, John and Stella? Jeanette: That same one she gave me. I Jeanette: Cut splints up, cut everything made them flower baskets. That up, start making baskets with my picture up there, I made flowers and father. My mother, she used to colour put them on there. He took that her splints. When I moved up here, I picture in the back, when we moved coloured mine a little bit. up here.

245 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Jeanette: I am the only one that made Norman: Clothes basket. baskets, you know, after my mother Alice: So how long did you make bas- died. But nobody else paid attention. kets? Nobody else will make baskets Jeanette: About, I made baskets since I around here. was four years old with my mother Norman: They don’t want to do any- down the hill. I made my first basket, thing. I tried to teach jewellery, my mother was telling me (pause) knives, knife making. Alice: What kind? Jeanette: I used to teach up Hubbard Jeanette: Flower baskets. Avenue, do bead work and every- Alice: Did you make really fancy bas- thing. kets? Alice: Nobody’s interested in that kind Jeanette: No, my mother did. I just of thing anymore. made hampers and cabbage baskets, Jeanette: Little kids did. potato baskets, I made. I didn’t make Norman: Some people do bead work that much. now, they just picked it up on their Norman: Ones for tools were, Charlie, own. They’re good at it. Jim Atwin, Veronica and her father. Jeanette: Oh, yeah. Little kids around Knives and those little—they cut the here, they make key chains and splints. everything. Alice: I don’t even know what you call Alice: Theresa Sacobie, eh, she’s still it, but I’ve seen them. I know what into that. I’ve gone to see her a few they are and you got a crooked knife times and she’s always putting to- and then you got a drawing knife. gether something with beads. Jeanette: He made a crooked knife; but Norman: It’s hard on the eyes. my son bought it, because he wanted Alice: And she really works with detail. something he made. Where’s that Jeanette: She makes baskets. Nobody knife that Shirley gave you? The one don’t pound ash for you. that Tom gave you. Alice: She used to make them. I don’t Norman: It’s downstairs. think anybody is pounding ash Alice: Did you ever keep any of your anymore. baskets that you made? Norman: Joe Green’s got a stick over Jeanette: Just that one there, I bought there. I am going to make a basket for that at the market. them this week. Alice: Did your sister ever make them Alice: I’d like to go and talk to Joey too? Green. I was talking to Tommy last Jeanette: Mildred, and my other sister. week when I was over talking to Norman: You just make them, weave Charlie. And Tommy says that Grand- them up an inch or so. And share the father passed on a lot of things to bucks when we went to sell them. Joey.

246 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Norman: His medicine, Joey made a Jeanette: He usually parks his car be- portfolio of it and wrote down sam- hind his house. ples. But I don’t know where that Alice: No, it was right up front there. (pause) Jeanette: His wife teaches school up Jeanette: Joey is a good talker. here. Alice: I tried to get a hold of him last Alice: Well, I want to talk to Joey. week. I went over to his place, his Alice: I thank you for this interview and truck was there, but there was no maybe sometime again, maybe. answer at the door. Maybe he is a END OF TAPE hard person to get a hold of.

247 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

248 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

17. Living off the earth

GLORIA NASH GAGETOWN

Well, when I first come around, Mildred and Bill—Mildred was still alive then—they were making baskets, made canoes and they were fishing and trapping. They lived off the earth, they had a garden. You very seldom saw them go to town, they had pretty much everything. They had livestock, raised their own animals. They made baskets, they made good money then when they made their baskets.

Plate 17.1: Bill Nash (photo by Patricia Allen).

249 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: How long have you been married nized until 1951? to Beaver Nash? Gloria: Yes, about that (pause) Gloria: Twenty-five years. Alice: So does everyone get their status? Alice: Were you here before you mar- Gloria: A lot of them still don’t. A lot of ried Beaver? them are still fighting about where Gloria: No. they belong. An older fellow that I Alice: So you know about the Nash have met, he would have been Jim family? Nash’s brother’s brother, his son. I Gloria: I know quite a bit about them. met him a couple years ago, George Alice: Okay, let’s hear something about Nash. He’s from Maine, came to New the Nash family. Brunswick. Gloria: Well, when I first come around, Alice: Some of the Nashes belong to Mildred and Bill—Mildred was still Oromocto or they belong all from St. alive then—they were making bas- Mary’s? kets, made canoes and they were Gloria: Jim’s family belongs to fishing and trapping. They lived off Oromocto. Bill’s family belongs to the earth, they had a garden. You very Oromocto. The rest belong to St. seldom saw them go to town, they Mary’s. They are quite a family when had pretty much everything. They it comes to sharing, they do every- had livestock, raised their own ani- thing they can, they help each other mals. They made baskets, they made out. It’s just different, you know, good money then when they made when they keep talking about close their baskets. knit families. When the older ones Alice: Where did they sell their baskets? were still around, not too much today, Gloria: Mostly when they went to town, they are more (pause) to the market or people gave them Alice: About how many are there in the orders. Nash family? Alice: Did they ever trade their baskets? Gloria: There are a lot of them, I’d say Gloria: Oh, yes. His mother used to about a hundred. make them. They would trade them Alice: [asking about band numbers for something else they would need. given out]. Alice: Like what? Gloria: What I heard was, I guess they Gloria: Mainly vegetables, stuff like called them (pause) that, to keep the family going. Flour. [The rest is poor audio quality] Alice: The Nash family was not recog-

250 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

18. There used to be islands here

MAURICE /RITA PERLEY NEQOTKUK/TOBIQUE FIRST NATION

There used to be islands here, they were really good until the dam was built. Everything was spoiled, fishing, fiddleheading…

Plate 18.1: Maurice's father, Gabe "Mehkow" Perley (sitting) and Patrick Paul (standing) (University of New Brunswick Archives, AC-10276-26).

251 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: Maurice you lived in Tobique all ing birch bark canoes? your life? [73 years old]. Maurice: Not really, I don’t know of Maurice: Ah, ha [yes]. anybody. Alice: Who’s your mother and father? Alice: How was it for you growing up Maurice: Gabe Perley and Maria Perley. here? Did you have a hard time? Alice: Were they also from Tobique? Maurice: Yes, them days it was depres- Maurice: Ah, ha. sion time, that’s the time I started Alice: Did they make baskets? working all over. I had to help my Maurice: Oh, no. parents. We had a hard time, because Alice: Well, what did they do for there were so many of us. There were (pause) thirteen of us in the family and I am Maurice: We usually worked around the oldest. farms, working in the woods. Alice: Everyone must have had big Rita: But your mother knew how to families back then? make baskets. Maurice: Yes, and I had to quit school. Maurice: My mother could, but she Alice: What grade were you in when wasn’t interested. Working on the you quit school? farm (pause) Maurice: Grade four. I wasn’t interested Alice: You can speak Maliseet if you in school, I’d rather work. want. Alice: Was there a lot of, when you Maurice: Okay. Well, what did you ask were growing up, like houses here? me? No, well my father didn’t. My Maurice: Not too many, hardly any. But mother did a lot. after the war, then they started build- Alice: What kind of baskets did she ing houses, veterans. The Indian make? agent was bad, he was stingy, he Maurice: Mostly potato baskets, that’s hardly helped Indian people. the only one them days, I guess. Alice: We must be talking about Alice: So when you were growing up, Whalen? you grew up here, eh? Maurice: No, McPhail, Norval McPhail. Maurice: Yes. He was the devil man, that one. Alice: Did you make baskets? Alice: Gee, they talk about Whalen that Maurice: No, I pounded ash for other way too, down my way. people. Maurice: I never saw that man. Alice: Were there a lot of basket makers Rita: Who is Whalen? up here? Alice: He used to be Indian agent too. Maurice: Yes. Maurice: Saint John River? Alice: Could you name me a few? Alice: Saint John River, suppose to be Maurice: There was Noel Bear, Pat (pause) Meuse. Maurice: I don’t remember him, do Alice: Did you remember anyone mak- you?

252 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Rita: No. Indian people? Maurice: I had to quit school them days. Maurice: Marriages? Alice: What kind of work did you do? Alice: Were they arranged? Maurice: I worked in the woods, farm, Maurice: Oh, yes. construction jobs, mostly woods. Rita: No, it was up to a person if they Alice: Do you hunt or fish? wanted to get married or not. Maurice: Me, no. Alice: So your parents never said, well Alice: Did you pick any fiddleheads? you have to, this lady is for you. Like Maurice: Yes. when you’re older you have to marry Alice: Where did you go for those? her, nothing like that? Maurice: There used to be islands here, Maurice: No. they were really good until the dam Alice: What about Indian medicine, do was built. Everything was spoiled, you know anything about that? fishing, fiddleheading. Maurice: No, I don’t know Indian Alice: How did you travel back then? medicine, but I used to hear, a long Anybody have cars back then? time ago my grandfather talking Maurice: Well, they had a few cars, about medicines. mostly taxi, if someone wanted to go Alice: Who is your grandfather? shopping downtown or Fort Fairfield. Maurice: William Laporte, on my Not too many cars. mother’s side. Alice: Did, do you remember anything Rita: You should tape Loretta [Perley] about, were marriages ever fixed for for Indian medicine.

Plate 18.2: Camp at Narrows of the Tobique, before the Dam (Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, P5-248).

253 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 18.3: From Tobique, Maurice's in-laws and Rita's parents, Simon Paul and wife Elizabeth; little boy is Alexander "Sandy" Paul, and little girl is Rita (Paul) Perley (University of New Brunswick Archives, 3-41).

Maurice: My mother’s father. were alive back then, what did these Alice: So you remember your grandpar- people do for like activities, entertain- ents, eh? ment, stuff like that? Maurice: Just that one, my mother’s Maurice: Not too much. Dances, square mother. I don’t remember her, she dances. was probably dead by then. Same as Alice: Did you go to anybody’s home to my father’s side, I don’t remember do that? them. Maurice: We used to have a hall here Alice: When your mother and father before they built that one. The only

254 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 18.4: From Tobique (left to right) Maurice Perley, Francis Francis, Billy Laporte, and Raymond Nicholas (photo courtesy of Karen Perley).

time they had was St. Anne, celebrate here? Saint Anne. We would have games, Maurice: There was good fishing a long some kind of games. Merry-go-round time ago. and a great big tent for a picnic. They Alice: How did they fish? What did they had baseball too. That’s the only thing fish with? I remember. Maurice: Salmon, they used rods a long Alice: Did the men, back then, play any time ago, but nets now. All this was instruments? during depression time. Maurice: Yeah, Pious [Perley], Kunuhsi Alice: So yourself, when you got older, [Peter Perley]. Fiddle and piano. And and you got married, how long have Joe Perley’s sons and daughters, they you been married? had some kind of band. Drums, Maurice: Forty-seven years. piano, violin, guitars and be-be kwad Alice: How many kids? (horn) and drums. George Perley they Maurice: Fifteen. used to have a band and the women Alice: Did you have a hard time? from Kingsclear, Madeline, piano Maurice: Well, we got by. We weren’t player. Those are the only ones I rich, but we got by. What little money know, whenever they have dances. I made working, a little welfare, in Alice: Did people do a lot of fishing them days you didn’t get too much.

255 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

When you wanted welfare you had to they are on welfare, well then, just beg from that man, Norval McPhail. enough to buy their groceries, I guess. It was really hard times, but we got Alice: And it ain’t much, welfare, these by, working out. days either? Alice: Did your family help you too? Maurice: Well, now most go to school, Maurice: When they grow up, yeah. young people. Alice: I would like to know more about Alice: Do you know anything about Tobique and how it grew. There ‘little people’? wasn’t that many homes here then, Maurice: No. I heard of them when they eh? talk about them. Maurice: No, until after the war, then Alice: A lot of people heard of them, eh. they started building. First veterans And some people seen them? homes and then it started picking up Maurice: A long time ago, must be years then. Government. Even right around ago, but I never seen them. here, there used to be just a few Alice: Any legends up here or any houses, now there are so many. marks? Alice: People still have a hard time Maurice: I don’t think so. today? Alice: I think we’ll end it right here. Maurice: Well, it’s pretty good now Thank you Maurice. when they are working. But when END OF TAPE

256 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

19. People galore

CHARLES POLCHIES WOODSTOCK FIRST NATION

I am telling you, there was people galore. You hit one of them inlets sometimes, there would be three canoes there already. There was plenty of fiddleheads there for everybody. We would pick two or three bags, sometimes we would get four bags. We would bring them down to the market. Me and Dick and your father would stay there or sometimes he would come down. Somebody would always stay picking, two guys would take them, sell them at the market. We would buy supplies. We liked molasses and we used to stock up on molasses and go back to the islands.

Alice: Charles, were you born and Woodstock, as far as I know. Them brought up and raised here in days, people wasn’t into where you Woodstock? came from or who you were, you Charles: Yes I was. know what I mean. Our main objec- Alice: Who’s your father? tive was just survival, make the best Charles: Peter Noel Polchies. of what we got. We never worried Alice: And your mother? about where we came from or who Charles: Agnus Deveau. was our father, who was our cousin or Alice: Where is she from? anything like that. Charles: She was adopted from some Alice: How many families were down? people that went by here in a horse When you were growing up? and wagon. You know what I mean? Charles: About fifteen families. The baby was born probably up the Alice: How many families up here road somewhere. And when they got today? to the reserve, they figured they’d be Charles: We got about thirty-two fami- too young to continue the journey. So lies here. some lady adopted her, took her. Alice: What year was that when you Alice: You don’t know who brought her were living down the hill? How long up? Who was your father’s father? was that reserve there before you Charles: My father’s father, his name moved up here? was Peter Polchies too. He was from Charles: I am not that good on dates.

257 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

They were still there when I came out used to pick potatoes and then he of the war. They were still there, I made ax handles and stuff like that. think 1945, it must have been after Alice: Any basket making? ’45. So I don’t know what year, but it Charles: No, he didn’t make too much was after ’45 when they moved up baskets. No, he was in the ax handle here. It was the same year, when they business. And we did have a few made them move up here was when basket makers around here. they built that . See, Alice: Who would they be, would you the backwater took our reserve, so know who they are? they bought this new location up Charles: Gabriel Polchies, he used to here. They bought it from the make a few baskets. My brother was Wetmores and (pause) a dealer, he used to buy all the bas- Alice: Could you tell me a little bit kets from the people that make bas- about your father and what he did? kets on this reserve. Charles: Well, my father, like I said we Alice: Which brother are you talking

Plate 19.1: The family of Peter Polchies of Woodstock; front from left: Charles Polchies, Oliver Polchies, seated: Anne Polchies, Peter Polchies, Agnes (his wife), Nancy Polchies, standing: Leo, Patrick, George, Frank Polchies, Children not included are Mike and his sister Mary Jo, who probably took the picture, ca. 1940 (University of New Brunswick Archives AC-10276-14).

258 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

about? toes. In the fall of the year everybody Charles: Oliver, used to buy it all. looked ahead. When they got their Anything that the Indians made he first pay, they would buy a jacket or would buy, he would resell it. He something for the coming winter. And used to do good in the fall of the year, warm shirts, underwear, you know, because he always had lots of potato getting ready. Because the winters baskets, you know, in stock. So he were harsh. We didn’t have any had no problem getting rid of them. furnaces in our houses, we just had Alice: How many brother and sisters did kitchen stoves and that was kept you have? continuously. But it didn’t seem we Charles: I had fifteen, ten brothers and had that much sickness. I think you five sisters. got immune to the cold. There wasn’t Alice: How many of you here now? too many colds. Your in a warm Charles: There are only three of us house, next day you go outside and living today. My oldest brother two days later you got pneumonia or Patrick Polchies, second oldest is something. There wasn’t too much Oliver Polchies, of course I am the sickness around. I think maybe that baby of the family. I am seventy-four was a plus, but life in general was years old. The rest are all gone. kind of a dull life. They played a little Alice: So when you were growing up in cards here and there. They used to the older part of the reserve back have a lot of raffles. Some people then, how was life for you back then? would make that Indian soup, Indian Charles: Life was very simple life, there corn. And some Sundays they would wasn’t too much activities going on. have a raffle, all gathered. Like there was work for people that Alice: That must happen on every wanted to work. Work in the woods reserve? cutting. In them days there was no Charles: There was a lifestyle them gas and stuff like that. There might days. have been electric stove, I don’t Alice: I remember my mother saying know, but everybody used wood. We that my father would go out and cut would cut sixteen inch wood for the wood. And he would make enough to kitchen stove, two foot wood for the sell it, so he could play raffle on furnaces. And the people that couldn’t Sundays for corn or something like afford the two foot wood and sixteen that. Tell me a little bit about your inches used to put them in four foot father? length. Cord wood and they would Charles: My father was a great story- have to saw that up stove length. And teller. He used to—he was a great one that was about the limit of work. And to tell all the things that used to in the spring of the year (pause) In the happen at these lumber camps. When fall of the year, we would pick pota- he was younger, he must have went.

259 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

He must have did something other he looked at this gentleman—this than ax handles. He used to tell me sophisticated gentleman—one of his about the times he’d be in the woods, legs was a hoof of a horse. So when twenty-five miles in the woods. he saw that he just freaked out. The They’d go in the majority part of the guy just fell backwards and passed winter, stay until spring. They used to out. A little while after that the guy cut wood, logs. He was a great one to just vanished and then everybody tell ghost stories, I guess. For one looked at each other. You know how instance, he said that towards spring the hair almost stands up? It would be they had a severe thunderstorm, they a frightening thing, I’d still be there wanted to play poker this night. I under the table if that happened to guess they had a few drinks and me. everyone was kind of rowdy. And Alice: Anything like that ever happen to everyone said, oh, let’s have a game. you? So they all started playing cards. And Charles: No, minor things. But I believe one of the elder gentleman said, hey, there is a lot of times I’ve had experi- we shouldn’t play cards, it’s thunder- ences where - I was away in Con- ing lightening, we should stop. Then necticut when one of my brothers one of the gentlemen said, look, if the died. And he knew I wasn’t the brav- devil walked through that door I est person walking on the earth, on would say, hey, let’s play cards with account of my father telling me all you. So anyway little time elapsed. these ghost stories. I’d be afraid to go So first thing, God All Mighty, a upstairs to go to bed, he had me so knock came at the door of the old scared. But I guess knowing that the camp. Everybody looked at each baby brother was always a fraidy cat other. Come on in, somebody or something, I suppose he wanted to shouted. In walked this gentleman let me know he was passing on. I got dressed up like a - it would be unu- up to go to the bathroom. When I sual being in a dense wood and all of came back I was by my bed and my a sudden a guy comes in all dressed feet were under the bed. You know up. Top hat. He said, can I join? Go how you stand by the bed, you pull ahead, sit right down here, your your covers on. Somebody touched money is just as good as ours. So they my toes, ever so gently. At the same sat down, the game started and as the time, the first person I thought of was game, the game was on for a little my brother that was sick. And within while. This gentleman was dealing fifteen or twenty minutes the tel- the cards and one of the cards happen ephone rings and said your brother to fall off the table. So this guy that just passed away. The same instance was dealing the cards bent down to happened when my sister died, Mary pick up the card off the floor, when Jane.

260 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: Were you all close? what does a young person look for? Charles: I was close to Mary Jane. I was Hard to tell, it could be several away a long time, I was away fifty things, maybe a guy was looking for a some years. When we were growing wife. up we were close, but we used to Alice: Did you work down there? have our little battles too. Because Charles: No, I don’t think too many there wasn’t that much to eat, slice of people worked. I stayed with these bread, heel of bread was very - If people and if there’s work to be done there was one slice of bread and four I would help. I paid for my keep. Just people want it, there is going to be like down there, I used to help him, some commotion there. Simon Paul. Whatever he does, pull My sister Mary Jane, she died here just his nets in or repair them, I was a while back, she was living in Grand always good help some ways. And I Bay. And she knew that her brother stayed there and every time they ate, I was a fraidy cat and we were up here ate too. They were very nice people, in Woodstock and she was down in they had two boys. I can’t think of the Saint John. She was in the hospital, a guy’s name. lot of times I would go down. Alice: You must remember Annabelle, And the exact moment she died, I was Levi Sabattis, all them people? laying in the other room. I must have Charles: I remember all them people. fell asleep watching television. My John Coon. hands were in front of me, all of a Alice: He just passed away recently sudden, at the exact moment she died, here, he would have been a good somebody came and touched my person to talk too. I heard he was finger ever so. And I jumped up. I very knowledgeable in a lot of things. said to Rita, I bet Mary Jane died. I Charles: He married some girl, I forget just went in, she was laying in that her name. Stella Paul was her name. I bedroom. I got in. I said, I had the knew them. strangest thing happened to me. Alice: What about St. Mary’s, what did Telephone rang and said your sister you do there? Who did you hang out just passed away about five minutes with? ago. So that makes you think some- Charles: I hung out with your father, times, but other than that I never mostly the three of us hung around (pause) together. Alice: Tell me about your travels when Alice: Must have been my father and you were a young fellow and travel- Uncle Dick. ling to different reserves, what did Charles: Yeah, Dick and Dokie. We you do there? fiddleheaded together, down the Charles: Oromocto? Who knows, maybe reserve. a guy was looking around for a— Alice: Where did you fiddlehead?

261 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Charles: Savage Island, Hartt Island and Alice: So on Savage Island, was there a two or there other islands up there. lot of people from St. Mary’s, just St. Alice: There was Bear Island, Sheep’s Mary’s? Island. Charles: No, they were all from, a lot of Charles: We hit all of them anyway. I them came from Kingsclear. And it know that would have been me and was easier for people from (pause). But you know, most of the Kingsclear. There were very few people congregated on Savage Island. people from Woodstock. I don’t know what it is, if there is Alice: What about Tobique? more inlets in there or whatever. Charles: No, not from Tobique. They Alice: Probably the biggest island up probably had their own way, they there anyway? probably went up towards Charles: I am telling you, there was Restigouche. But from Kingsclear, people galore. You hit one of them they drop their canoe and in no time inlets sometimes, there would be they would be at one of the islands. three canoes there already. There was Everybody had their own place to plenty of fiddleheads there for every- stay. Some of them had tents, some body. We would pick two or three had little shanties. Some of them bags, sometimes we would get four stayed in the little houses that were bags. We would bring them down to on the island. I don’t know what they the market. Me and Dick and your were for but (pause) father would stay there or sometimes Alice: There was houses on the island? he would come down. Somebody Charles: Something like little barns. You would always stay picking, two guys know, like people that leave their would take them, sell them at the cattle there. They probably had a little market. We would buy supplies. We storage room for—and people used to liked molasses and we used to stock stay in there. They were never there up on molasses and go back to the fiddleheading time and people would islands. fix it up and (pause) Alice: Most people I interviewed always Alice: Do you remember Ronnie Paul mentions bees beer. from St. Mary’s? Charles: It was good and you couldn’t Charles: I heard of the name, but I can’t afford the other stuff. Once in a place the guy. while, you would go buy half a gallon Alice: He does a lot of beaver, muskrat. of wine. But that stuff was good. You He’s a taxidermist. know, a lot of people, it would go a Charles: The person I knew the most long ways. I think it’s better than down Kingsclear, I mean St. Mary’s, beer. That’s what it was suppose to is Dickie Polchies. Him and I were in have been Amuwesey (bees beer). It the army together. was great. Alice: Are you related to him?

262 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Charles: I think about sixth cousin or Frankie, Willie, Shack, Barnie, Rich- something like that, distant. ard [Brooks]; they all fiddlehead Alice: Are you related to anyone in St. every year they go. Mary’s? Charles: You must have a big family Charles: No. too? Alice: Oromocto? Alice: Yup, there is thirteen of us. Charles: I don’t think so. Charles: You’re not the thirteenth person Alice: Kingsclear? are you? Charles: I don’t think so, well Dickie Alice: No, I am not, I am the fifth. The Polchies is sixth cousin, that’s what only two missing from my family are they used to say. my father and my uncle. My mother Alice: I think Dickie is our oldest elder. is still alive. No, I think it’s Elsie Paul, Josephine, Charles: Did your father die of a heart Dickie. attack? Charles: That is the first lady I know, Alice: He died of heart failure. He was Elsie Paul. When I first came to suppose to quit smoking and he never Fredericton, we went to the band hall, did, he kept on and on. down by the railroad tracks. I think Charles: It’s hard to give up something she was working there, she recog- like that. That’s what I gave up after I nized me just as soon as I walked in. had my heart attack in the ’80s. The Alice: Gee, the reserves have changed doctor said, why don’t you quit so much. smoking? I used to go through couple Charles: Yeah, just like here. People pack a day. I said, I’d like to live a don’t mingle anymore, they are while longer, I am going to try it. In jealous of each other. Before every- two weeks I gave them up, just like body was equal. that. Not everybody can do it. Alice: Oh! Alice: How old were you when you left Charles: He won’t bite you, that little here? When you left Woodstock and bug like that. You think it was an went to Connecticut or wherever you ‘Injun devil’ jumped on top of you went? there. It’s only a mosquito! Charles: I am seventy-four now, I must Alice: I find a lot of difference. When I have stayed there fifty years or so. I was growing up, my mother and was a kid when I left here, prime of father took us to Savage Island almost life anyway. I got a job down there. every summer or every spring. We Of all the times I stayed there, I think would stay there until almost end of I had two jobs. I drove a truck and the summer sometimes. It was nice being latter part of the years, when I there picking fiddleheads, everybody couldn’t hack the truck anymore, I was up there. Today you don’t see worked for another company. I that. My brothers still fiddleheads. worked for Borden Dairy, I ran a

263 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

bottling machine. my girls are in Connecticut, they Alice: How many kids did you and your come every year. wife have? Alice: How often do they come around? Charles: We have five girls, no boys. All Charles: They come every year. We go

Plate 19.2: Gabe Solomon, Frank Francis (man with paddle); Dr. Peter Polchies, Sarah Solomon, Jack Solomon (sitting); Kingsclear on Corpus Christi Day, ca. 1887 (Provincial Archives of New Brunswick, P5-259).

264 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

down there every year too. But as you called him. This Peter Polchies was get older—it used to take us ten to some kind of a gentleman that used to twelve hours—today it takes us two go and travel in the circus. I don’t days to get down there. We have a set know if he was related to my father or of twin girls, born in 1956. And when not, but he used to do all kinds of they were born it was in the newspa- things. I never saw him do these per down there. It hit the headlines, things, but everyone used to talk ‘Twins with a problem’. They were about him. Like he used to put a twins, but a day apart. One was born needle out on his arm and then close before midnight, the other one six his arm like that and the needle would minutes after midnight. (pause)… And they said he used to Alice: They were never brought up here work for the circus. He was a sharp- then? shooter and tight-wire climber. And Charles: No, none of them. Oh, yes, he would fire a twenty-two on top of Sheila was born here . his head using mirrors and hit an Alice: So did you ever hear of Jemseg? apple on some body’s head. Charles: Yes, I heard of it. Alice: Was he from here? Alice: Have you ever been there? Charles: He lived down here, he lived Charles: I’ve been through there. That is here a long time. See, but if you talk a good fiddlehead place too, a lot of to people that are around here all the people go fishing there. But that’s the time—like if you interviewed what’s- only thing I know about it. And just her-name down here, she’d probably lately, when they talk about a burial remember him. But it’s just people ground down there; other than that, I telling me what he did. Like my never heard of it before. father used to say …he was a good Alice: Have you ever heard of red shot. Anybody that can walk on tight- ochre? wire and put a gun over his head and Charles: No, first time I heard of it, knock an apple off somebody’s head reading in the newspaper. had to be good. Me, I would be Alice: Do you know anything about knocking the person’s head off. moose hide? Alice: I don’t think we have too much Charles: The only thing I know about it, of our tape left here, so I’ll end it that it’s attached to a moose. People here. And thank you for letting me used to, once in a while—we used to interview you. And I’m going to have a guy down here years ago— transcribe this tape and get a copy for used to tan that stuff. A guy by the you. name of Dr. Peter Polchies, they END OF TAPE

265 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

266 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

20. Skicinuwey - belonging to an Indian

MAURICE SACOBIE NEQOTKUK/TOBIQUE FIRST NATION

But in one Island, Gilbert’s Island, it is up on this side of Lotus Creek. It’s called, they call it Skicinuwey (belonging to an Indian). But anyway, there is this place my father used to say, the Island is beautiful. Maybe from here to top of the hill, all green. Stretch of green grapes, maybe as wide as the other side of these houses. Really beautiful.

Alice: You come from Oromocto right? then but my father used to talk about You’re originally from Oromocto, but Indians living on reserve. What they you lived here at St. Mary’s for a long done for work, what they done for time. So let’s go back to Oromocto summer work. and tell me what it was like, like a Alice: What did they do? long time ago. Maurice: They work, make baskets, Maurice: I lived in the country, twenty work on the farms, trade, make few to twenty-five miles from Oromocto, baskets and trade. in the country. Alice: What did they trade for? Alice: Do you know anything about Maurice: Vegetables, meat, whatever Jemseg? farmer had. I remember my father Maurice: I travelled all around there doing that. growing up, eh. Me and my father, Alice: So ax handles were made too, eh? fiddleheading around, paddling Maurice: Back then yes. Because my around. And back then there were a biggest thrill back then, growing up, lot of Indians on the islands. They was when I was six, seven, eight come from different reserves, years old. Every spring, I couldn’t Kingsclear, Tobique, Woodstock, St. wait for spring. Indians come there Mary’s, camping, eh. But we, I didn’t every spring, fiddleheading time. hear too much about Jemseg. Back People on the island, down where we

267 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 20.1: Gilbert's Island, facing South East from Sheffield, looking at western tip (photo by Karen Perley)

live, down along the river. About five really (pause) or six tents and maybe couple miles Alice: Indian Island? down the road, two or three. Maurice: No. Oromocto people maybe somewhere Alice: St. Croix. else, the other side Tobique people, Maurice: St. Croix, I was up there, but I Pilickewiyik [people of Pilick/ don’t know too much about that. All I Kingsclear] All these old people, know is that Indians used to paddle most of them are dead now. from here all the way to Eastport. St. Alice: But that’s not the only place they Croix, they travelled a lot back then. went? Twenty, fifteen, so many Indians. I Maurice: Well, along there they used to couldn’t wait for the evenings, so start from Gagetown, camping. They many talking about what happened travelled back and forth paddling and years ago. Miltaqot (all different they lived along the river. They would stories). I should have listened more, make stuff, trade with people. because there would have been more Alice: So had you gone to any other that I would have remembered. But site? Brown’s flat? everybody had a different version of Maurice: Brown’s flats, no I never what went on. Our people, every-

268 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 20.2: Gilbert's Island, facing South East from McGowan's Corner, looking at eastern tip (photo by Karen Perley)

thing—how things are haunted along Skicinuwey (belonging to an Indian). the Saint John River, certain areas. But anyway, there is this place my I’ve camped out there a few times in father used to say, the Island is beau- places, when my kids were growing tiful. Maybe from here to top of the up, but I never heard anything. hill, all green. Stretch of green Alice: I think I was spooked one night grapes, maybe as wide as the other on Savage Island. side of these houses. Really beautiful. Maurice: I never was anywhere. Even in My father said, there is something there, the old house after my parents died. I every year there would be a depres- went down there every other month, sion on the ground, I want to dig all by myself. It was haunted, but my there, he never did. Finally, he died. father used to say where Indians lived He used to go there in the springtime. years ago are haunted. Camping He used to hear people talking, small places where they say are haunted. voices, dwarfs or ‘little people’. But I think it was their belief or Something, but he’d hear that. imagination. But in one Island, Gil- Alice: Is that true, about ‘little people’? bert’s Island, it is up on this side of Maurice: Yep, that’s what he said. Many Lotus Creek. It’s called, they call it times he used to tell me this.

269 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: I heard that too from Eastport? would look for Indians. Dad, let’s go Maurice: He said, I would be walking in there. He would say no. He wanted along, I won’t see anybody. He said, to hurry too much. But we would once there was a big tree there. I saw manage to get in there, talk for a someone hide behind the tree, two or while, have a cup of tea. three different times. But they are too But I was amazed with them making fast, I saw them for only a blink of an baskets and the way they lived, how eye. they look. Some old people, not like Alice: Is it true they look after Indian us or dress like us, things like that people? (pause) Maurice: That’s what they say, they Alice: So where did they trade their guide you, they watch over us. I don’t baskets at? know what it is. There is just so many Maurice: White people, farmers. different stories. That is one thing I Alice: Anywhere? used to like; every spring, I would Maurice: Yes, they would be paddling wait for them to get here. And what along or camped maybe down the they done, make baskets or make river. They got to know white people. handles. All of them making baskets. Make a couple baskets, go up there, Then I would go around and steal trade maybe peck a potatoes, beans or some bees beer and as a young fellow gas and boats. I remember that boat, I I used to like the foam. was just a young fellow when the Alice: We were talking about that this boats were floating. They used to go morning, me and Ronnie, about bees way down to Westfield, from there, beer. on up this way. Indians used to get on Maurice: Phite (foam). We seldom got that. They would go up on Westfield, pop. Maybe once a month, my mother work in the woods. They would stop would go to town and I would get a at a very big wharf, these boats. bottle of pop or something. Spring of Indians would be there with baskets, the year, I get a treat maybe twice a for someone would buy them (pause) week. We would paddle to the store, I [Tape ends abruptly].

270 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

21. That man

ROYDEN SABATTIS PILICK/KINGSCLEAR FIRST NATION

It was that agent by the name of Edward Whalen and he lived right here on Indian land. He had a big house over there, a little ways from here. Where we live now, there used to be an old road in front of our house. The agent lived close by, he used to run everything and he had everything too. He had cattle, horses, pigs, cows and chickens. He was suppose to give this to the Indians but he didn’t. And it was that man, he was starving the Indians here at Pilick

Alice: Are you originally from all finished and there is a big farm Kingsclear? down the hill with lots of cows and Royden: No, I’m originally from chickens. There are five hundred head Oromocto. of cattle for you and same time, five Alice: Could you tell me a little about hundred head of goats. And each when you lived down there? family will have five hundred head of Royden: Well, when we moved away chickens. And there weren’t any from there I was awful young. That chickens up there. was how many years ago when we Alice: Who is your mother and father? were moved from Oromocto? It was Royden: They called my father forty-seven years ago when we were Ceclawew, John Sabattis and my moved. Government men from Ot- mother Nastas, Daisy Sacobie. It was tawa came and lied to the Indians. that agent by the name of Edward Everything they were told never Whalen and he lived right here on happened, when they were moved to Indian land. He had a big house over Pilick [Kingsclear]. Well at first, the there, a little ways from here. Where way they lied to the Indians was, we live now, there used to be an old when you move to Pilick your houses road in front of our house. The agent will be ready to move in. They will be lived close by, he used to run every-

271 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

thing and he had everything too. He agent would not give any? had cattle, horses, pigs, cows and Alice: Was he greedy? chickens. He was suppose to give this Royden: Oh, yes. He ran everything. to the Indians but he didn’t. And it Alice: Well, let’s go back to what I was that man, he was starving the asked you, who your father and Indians here at Pilick; after him and mother were. the Government men cheated the Royden: Jack and Nastas. Indians to come and move here. He, Alice: Jack and Nastas, would be Daisy whatever he planted in the spring, Sacobie right and she was also from potatoes, oats, turnips, everything and Oromocto? cut pulpwood in the woods. Every Royden: Yes, my father was from night we would load on all this stuff, Oromocto also. until about twelve o’clock at night, Alice: So when you were living down in for him to go sell. At the time me, Oromocto when you were growing Clifford and Jim Nash used to work up, what kind of activities did people for him. We were the only ones hired do down there? on. And Indians used to get clothes Royden: Nothing. from the mounties [RCMP], a whole Alice: Nothing? Did they fiddlehead? truckload, shoes. And we would haul Royden: Oh yeah, they would them here and put it in the grain shed, fiddlehead in the spring and a few so he would pick the best clothes. were working on the other side of the And whatever was left over, he would river, on the farms. give to the Indians and he would go Alice: What about trapping? sell the good stuff. Even blankets, Royden: In the spring they would trap, white sheets, pillow cases and the real they would go way down river and good stuff, and shoes. We would go they would live right there. with him to the lumber camps to sell Alice: What about hunting? the stuff and he would keep the Royden: When they hunt in the fall, money himself. they would go that way? Alice: So what did the Indians have, Alice: Do you know anything about nothing? Jemseg area? Royden: They never had nothing, they Royden: Well, not that much, but my were starving, we didn’t have wel- father used to work, we used to live fare. If I hadn’t scraped some money down there. He used to work for this somewhere, I would not have eaten. guy, Arnold Dykeman was his name. You would starve. At that time Indi- He owned a funeral home, my father ans were not educated enough to do worked there. And every winter they something against the agent. That is would go cut wood from the islands why they did not get welfare, because and haul wood to Jemseg using Indians at the time did get it, but this horses. Or sometimes a lone horse

272 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

would haul a coffin—back then a Portabello, Grand Lake, that area? coffin, all by itself, would be hauled Royden: Yes, Indians used to live in in the evening. Even my father said Portabello every year. They went to the horse was walking and it started hunt there, muskrat. walking faster and there was a coffin Alice: Indian Point, where is that? behind it. He forgot to get a screw Royden: Do you know the way to driver out of the—and it kept going Scotchtown, Princess Park? You turn back and forth. And my father said off this other road on the right when the horse must have thought that it you get to Princess Park, then there is was the devil. Then the horse started another road with a sign that says running real fast and his tail was up. Scotchtown. But you go way on And my father said, I couldn’t control down until you get to dead end point, him and my eyes almost blew back- that is Indian Point. Indians used to ward. live there. You go along the river on Alice: What about the area they were this side, grassy area, they used to digging in this past year, do you have their camps there a long time know anything about that area? Do ago. you know what it was called? Alice: Is that place haunted? Royden: Well right there, where they are Royden: Oh, yeah. Before you go where digging is where the farmers used to the point is, when you get there, there bury their cows. Sometimes a cow is a road leading down the hill. There would die and they would take them is a little landing here and there’s an there and then cover them with dirt island. Well, they say nobody has there. ever spent a full night there at Indian Alice: Did Indians used to make baskets Point. there? Austin was telling me that my Uncle Royden: No, not the place where they John’s daughter’s husband, his name are digging now (pause) Do you was—a Newfie guy anyway. They know the bridge when you go over on took their kids down there and a tent the upper side? When you go down, trailer and set it up around ten o’clock down the bottom, there is an old road at night. They made a fire outside. At this way. Well, that’s where they used about one o’clock they got sleepy and to make baskets, down there at the crawled into the tent trailer and went point. And they used to live there, up to bed. Then someone started to rock a little ways, when your coming up the trailer back and forth, to the point on this side of the bridge. They used where they toppled it over. The tent to live there too. was sitting sideways. Roy was Rose’s Alice: And what would that be called? husband’s name. They had to leave Royden: Rev. Channelik. from there that night, about two Alice: Do you know anything about o’clock in the morning. They couldn’t

273 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

sleep there, the devil wouldn’t leave at night. The place I parked had birch them alone. trees growing… and they made a Kci Alice: That’s what Bobby Nash says Lakwakon (stick used to hold kettle), also when I was talking to him. got water, boiled it for tea. So I Indian Point is a bad place. Who thought I would go where the fire would be there? Who do you suppose was. I was there for a little while, is haunting the place? then I told the boys, I may as well get Royden: I think it’s old Indians. Just like the food from the truck, so we could us, when we went hunting… over eat by the light of the fire. I went to there in Big Cove, not the Mi’kmaq the car and… They almost knocked (Micmac) place, but the one going me over, they were both trying to get down towards Cambridge Narrows. into the same door. They said some- When you get there, there is a little one was going towards the fire. I town, you turn off this way, Norton. looked and I saw someone real tall You go right on straight until you get coming towards us. It looked like he to Big Cove. Then Hatfield Point, didn’t have a head, dressed in black, Belle Isle, all them places. Hatfield his coat was ‘v’ shaped, black boots, Point, beside Big Cove, is where it is white shirt. He came straight for us. I haunted. It’s nice and sloped and a went inside the car, both wanted to sit stream right in the middle, a big in the front and they crowded me. brook. When we went hunting at This person was coming, I tried Irving Camps, the field was nice and starting the car, it won’t start, lights open, it got dark early. As we were went dim. And this was almost a going back to the car, Malcolm and brand new car, new battery. Every- I—and it was dark—and in front of thing died, it won’t start. When the us, we heard a woman crying. We stranger disappeared, then the car thought it was an animal, the woman started. We left Indian Point spinning was crying towards us and really our wheels, it was about half past close to us too. The boys were so three when we arrived here. I believe scared that they both took a hold of it is haunted. me. I almost fell. Malcolm even Alice: There’s a place down there where scratched me. We finally got to the Bob Nash goes to have a barbecue. car and she was crying towards us. I They are there almost every night, should have known better then that, I they have a bonfire. There’s an island already knew it was haunted, but then right across there. I go there. But I didn’t think of it Royden: Oh, it must be down hill from because I was going there to hunt. We Burpee’s, it’s straight from Gilbert’s finally left and went to Indian Point. I Island, that’s where they go. told the boys, we may as well make Alice: He said there’s another place, a tea here—it was around one o’clock camp, a girl’s camp. And he said one

274 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

night there was a bonfire over there asked Buck himself. I said, Buck, I and hollering. And the kids on the want to ask you something. He didn’t other side where Bob and them were think anything of it. He lived at Ferris would holler back. So the next day he Lake, on the other side where Jemseg sent the boys over to see if there was is, near on this side. Indians used to a bonfire over there, but they didn’t live there. Do you know McGowan’s even find any ashes. Corner, about four or five miles down Royden: That Gilbert’s Island is haunted the road. Where they used to live, too. Especially the upper end, Indians there was a little bridge there. But call it Pahtuhk. Gilbert’s Island in when the government made the road, Indian is Piyakawek. That’s haunted they covered the bridge and didn’t too. Tom Nash used to tell me this. bother putting another one back. That And my brother they stayed there and is where Buck used to stay. Down every night someone bothered them. below that, Apahtek is what they Just like once my father told me. They called it. Ferris Lake, on the end, is hunt every fall at a big town, by Big where Buck lived. Cove, somewhere near there. Well He used to live there wintertime, it was anyway, they had a tent, a soldier’s a tar paper shack that was not insu- tent, big and round. It could hold lated, and it was a run down camp. It seventy-five men and about fifteen to did not have any insulation, just wood twenty men would go hunting and and tar paper over it. He had a wife stay in the tent. Once Buck Nash, and one kid. He used to work for the Frank Nash’s son, Buck was so afraid farmers, Jim and all them. So I asked of the devil, he would make his bed Buck that time, he showed me the right in the middle where the other scar where the devil grabbed him. It guys slept. He said, nobody will be was round, there was a covering of able to bother me. About two o’clock skin, it was red looking. Left an in the morning, my wife’s father Tom imprint on his arms, the marks were was there and my father. They both still on them. He showed me all this. told me, he [the devil] picked Buck He said he would show me all the right where he was laying in the scars if I didn’t believe him, and middle and he beat him up. Buck had that’s when he showed me. scars on his leg where the devil Alice: Who was your grandfather? grabbed him and also by the throat. Royden: My grandfather, his name was He was throwing him around, but did Racoon, Andy Sacobie. not see anybody doing it. Buck asked Alice: What about your grandmother? the boys to help him, but they didn’t Royden: Sadie Sacobie. My uncle John see anybody, the devil was fighting Coon, did you know him? His mother him. Buck saw him but nobody else and my uncle Pat, it was their mother. did. I wouldn’t believe the boys but I Alice: So did your parents and grand-

275 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 21.1: From left: Alice Polchies (Woodstock), the daughter of "Oromocto Pete" Polchies; John Sacobie (Oromocto), the son of Sadie and Andrew (Raccoon) Sacobie, brother of "Oromocto Pete" and uncle to Royden Sabattis (University of New Brunswick Archives, 75-1898).

276 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

parents make baskets? could see down the road. He had a Royden: They used to sell them or trade license back then, so he could fish them. Because back then, farmers salmon. But now an Indian can’t get a must not have had enough money, so license, they won’t give an Indian they traded pork, potatoes, buckwheat any. They will tell you, that license for ax handles and baskets. They has to go to generation to generation, would haul their goods to where the that is what they say. They think that farmers were and they would trade. an Indian has wool over their eyes. They did not get money. They might Alice: Was it hard for you growing up in have got some money for smokes or Oromocto? tobacco for chewing or for tobacco Royden: Seems like it and our house for the pipe. was shabby, and we were poor. Tar Alice: Did they use colour for their paper shack is what we lived in when baskets? we lived in Oromocto. And the win- Royden: Yes. Solomon Paul and Sarah dows—and I am not afraid to tell Paul—was Sacobie. this—we did not have any windows. Alice: What kind of colours did they In winter my father would cover the use? opening with an overcoat, tacked Royden: Green, red or yellow. down by two nails. We didn’t have Alice: Where did they get the colour? any flooring, just dirt floor was what Royden: They used to make it them- we walked on. And it was a small selves. camp. Alice: How did they make it? Alice: Did you have any electricity? Royden: I often wondered, Solomon Royden: No. Paul used to make it. There is this Alice: How many rooms did you have stuff he mixes and the pot would be in your house anyway? this full. He would boil it, tie the ash Royden: All in one room, after we got weavers together and throw it in. He older we build another on, we added had two or three pots, different col- on. ours. When he removes it, the ash Alice: Was there a lot of people from will be coloured. here, Kingsclear, that came originally Alice: Did they ever use berries for from Oromocto? colour? Royden: They were a lot from Royden: Boy, they might have. I was Oromocto, like Cora, Theresa, young when we lived in Oromocto, Yvonne, Molly-Sus, John Arnold and when Solomon made baskets. But his wife, and Babe [Annie Sacobie], their house was pretty good, they had Clifford, Stevie [ both Sacobies]. All kind of a nice home, because he used were from Oromocto. Us and my to fish salmon all summer long. And wife’s relatives, Tom, Marjorie, they near by he would make baskets, so he all used to live in Oromocto. Missel,

277 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 21.2: Sarah "Selapic" Sacobie in 1894, daughter of Andrew Sacobie, and Royden Sabattis' aunt; Sarah made baskets (University of New Brunswick Archives, 74-17358).

278 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Freddy Sabattis up there, he came Alice: Was there a lot of drinking? from Oromocto. Royden: Yes, they never used to buy it. Alice: Is he your brother or relative? They had bees beer, one would have Royden: No, no, my brother was four or five Apoluwes (Ambrose), Frankie and jugs. When they make this they use Johnny. Freddy’s brother is Charlie molasses and white sugar and brown Bear and Suseph (Arthur Sabattis). sugar and warm water. It would be And Freddy, his father is black. He ready in ten minutes. One day, your would say I am black man and not an mother and father—this was before Indian. He likes to say that. you were born—they had four jugs. Alice: Why? We had the overnight stuff, it was Royden: He said, Missel is not my very strong. You drank one cup of father, that is why I was the black this stuff and your stomach felt like it sheep of the family. was burning. And you felt like you END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE were so many inches off the floor. It TAPE ONE SIDE TWO tasted good. Royden: Rosie too from Welmooktuk Alice: Did John Coon ever tell you any (Oromocto), Debson too was from stories? Welmooktuk and Stanley and Myrtle. Royden: Not that much, because I was Alice: Debson, what is his real name? quite young when I left there. Royden: David Paul. A long time ago in Alice: How old were you when you Oromocto, John Casey’s wife left? Frances—Debson was married to Royden: About thirteen. Frances’ sister, her name was Molly Alice: What year are we talking? Louise. I don’t know if she is still Royden: 1933, when I was born. 1947. alive or if she died. I remember when There was a war going on in 1945, she left Oromocto. Debson gave her right after I left money to buy her shoes and clothing there. I was down in Cambridge Nar- and she’s been gone ever since. That rows at that time, I was fourteen was a long time ago. when I went back to Oromocto. Alice: What about, like when you were Alice: How many in your family? down in Oromocto there, do your Royden: There are (pause) boys would remember having the older people be Maynard, Petro, Apoluwes having dances and (pause) (Ambrose). About seven brothers all Royden: Oh yes, I remember, there used together. Sisters: Rose Mary, Loretta, to be a dance and they had a dance Jean, Cora, Joanie, Molly and Annie. place. Old school or sometimes About eight girls all together. somebody’s house. It was fun there Alice: Do you remember anybody were no fights, they would only making birch bark canoes? dance and drink. Royden: No.

279 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: What about moose hide? here. There was no TransCanada then, Royden: No. so the other side of the road, down Alice: There must be somebody some- that hill, we lived down by the brook where that knows about. in tents. There were no houses any- Royden: I did see a few birch bark where. They lied to the Indians. They canoes in Oromocto, but I don’t know said, your houses, all you have to do anybody that had made one. I do is walk right in. When we moved here remember one guy made one. there were no houses anywhere. They Alice: Who was it? were so good in fooling us. Royden: My grandfather, Racoon, Andy Alice: Whalen? Sacobie. I remember him making Royden: Yes, I bet when he died, he one. I asked him all kinds of ques- went straight to hell. tions on how the birch bark would be Alice: My mother said he must have got big enough to cover the ribs. He said rich off the Indians. the tree has to be big enough, like that Royden: Oh yeah, he became a million- big around, just right. Because the aire. When he retired, he bought a tree is already bowed and it’s shaped house on top of that hill and he didn’t where all you do is slip it under and live there very long when he died. tack on top to where the ribs are in Alice: He must have been quite old? between. They have to attach it and Royden: Seventy-five. He was really fat they have to smear something to the and tall. birch bark and they have to bake it. Alice: A lot of people speak a lot of him They heat water up real good and and he wasn’t a very good Indian slide the bark like that. Agent from what I gather. He prom- Alice: Do you know of any burial ised, like everything you said on grounds down that way? there, like animals and stuff like that. Royden: Down Oromocto? Native And they never got nothing, some Ones? No. people might have got something, but Alice: Do you know anything about not too many probably. Brown’s Flat? Royden: He cheated the Indians, not just Royden: No. one but all. Remember when some Alice: Sheffield? got an army pension? He used to keep Royden: No, I don’t know these areas that for them. Or when a small kid that well or burials. got milk, it was given to the Agent for Alice: So you moved up here in 1947. the kid, but the Agent did not give the So how was things here when you got milk to the kid. I don’t know what he here? did with the milk, I think he sold it. I Royden: When we got here there wasn’t know when he raised cows, twenty anything here, no homes, nothing. We head of jerseys, all jerseys. My wife’s lived on the other side of the road father used to work for the Agent, he

280 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

used to milk the cows by hand every when you were growing up? As you morning, this guy would pick up got older, were marriages arranged cream cans of milk. The Agent was for Indian people, some Indian peo- the one that would take the money. ple? Whatever he sold that belonged to the Royden: Oh yeah. Indians, he would pocket the money. Alice: How did they go about doing He did not give a cent to the Indian. that? Alice: Do you remember anything about Royden: Well, a long time ago in when someone dies, did they have Oromocto (pause). Do you know the any Indian ceremony? St. Vincent Church, that is where Royden: No, they never had that. I just people used to get married. But remember when we used to Indian Indians were dressed very poorly. dance, a long time ago, we used to Sometimes for a neck tie, someone travel all over. There used to be an would wear a sock or something. old hall at Lake George, there would Alice: No. I mean did somebody—say I be so many settlers to watch us. Do was the elder person okay. Your my you remember Joe Shaker? He used daughter and there is another family to take care of money—and Andrew there with a fellow. Was anybody Paul from Devon, and him—they ever told they had to marry this one used to handle money. I think they or had to marry that one? cheated the Indians. When we put on Royden: No. a show, there would be so much Alice: Were Indian people very religious money the white people would put on back then? the table, we never got anything. It Royden: Very much, they were very was a sight to see, when Indians religious Indians a long time ago. danced. They were more religious back then, Alice: Did you ever hang around but not now. Now you don’t see any Gagetown with the Nashes? Indians in church. Royden: Yes, a long time ago. I used to Alice: Only when someone dies, mar- go there when Evelyn, Bobbie, Jim ries, baptism, that’s about the only Nash and Lena and Louis Paul… He time. used to live at Upper Gagetown Royden: Like a long time ago—this is Ferry, on that side of the river, along in Oromocto, Indian area—there was the shore is where they used to live. this priest his, name was Father Alice: They lived in a houseboat, eh? Moore. There was an Indian person Royden: Yes, they lived there years and dying, Sahk Suseph was his name. He years. Louis and his wife Ahnis was almost dead and someone got the [Annie ?], I don’t know her English priest to go prepare Sahk Suseph’s last name. rites. The priest was reading a few Alice: What about marriages back then prayers. And you know that container

281 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

that holds holy water and it has a Royden: Not too much. knob. It’s lead and it screws off on the Alice: Do you know anything about red handle. Well, someone had used it in ochre? church, one of the alter boys. He Royden: No. Did you ever hear the story sprinkled i, he dipped the container. that the late Joe Sagaby tells about And the Native person was laying Noah? He lent me the tape that he there on a bunk bed and it was made made. He sounded so funny, like he of straw and something else. He was talking through his nose. He sprinkled for last rites, the knob came wanted to sound so Maliseet when he off and hit him in the head. This was talking. It’s about somebody native person said, oh you dirty telling him to bring on board all the bastard, you almost killed me, to the animals in tulokuk (the big boat). I priest. All the people laughed very should have saved that tape. I had it hard, but anyway the native person here for a while and then he wanted it lived long after that. My uncle John back, so I took it back to him. told him, Sahk Suseph, anyway my Alice: Medicine, do you know anything uncle said, you should not swear at a about Indian medicine? priest. He told John, I don’t care for Royden: Just Kiwhosuwasq (calamus any ones feelings. The holy water root). And my uncle John knows type containers back then were made of of medicines to used to heal people. lead and very heavy. A long time ago, Once, Phillip, my wife’s brother got a they did not take anyone to a funeral thorn in his hand. He went and got x- home or nute utsasohkew (cut out rayed, they didn’t find it, it didn’t from your body). What they would do show up in the x-ray. He came back is put you on a bench and cover you home and it still bothered him, this with a white sheet, not like now. was in Welmooktuk (Oromocto). Then Alice: So did they do anything else to uncle John made some poultice for them? When they put them in a white him. Used some type of bark, which sheet, did they put anything on these he boiled and crushed it up, and it people? was from some poplar. It looked like Royden: When you got buried they a salve after, he put this on a bandage would put you in a box. They would and put it over where the thorn was. make a box, rough coffin and a He said, in the morning take the wooden cover. Drop it down and bandage out and it will not be there. cover it up. They would prepare you And sure enough next morning when right at home. Tom woke up, he took his bandage Alice: Do you remember any traditional off and there was this thorn in the Indians? Back then, Elders. suave. The salve drew it out. He knew

282 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

a lot of medicine my uncle John. He quit work. So I went to another used to teach me, but I forgot it all. company and I worked there for Alice: Did he ever tell you any stories? nineteen years at the Industrial Park. Royden: Yes, he did, but I forgot them And there were two other companies, all. I used to sit there and listen to Porter Roofing Company and Tasco. him. We counted the years and it totalled Alice: He would have been a good one forty-three years. Winter and summer, to go and talk with, if he was still I never got laid off once in that many alive. He knew so much. years. I saw a lot of white people that Royden: Oh yes, he knew everything. were told to leave Christmastime, but Native way of life, I don’t think there me and a few other white people were was anything he didn’t know about. left on. I don’t know why. I used to Like he could predict the weather and think, I wish they would send me he was always right. He used to use away, because it would be snowing so pig’s gut. He used it’s gut with hard. But they will say, I’ll see you knotches on it to tell him what the Monday Royden. In that many years I winter was going to be like. They worked, I finally got tired of it and used to kill pigs, they butchered them thought I would look for something and he would look at them to tell him easier. So I got a job here at the what kind of winter we are going to school. It has been six years, I have. There are knotches on them, he worked at the old school and then the would count them. He was always new school. right. He would also go by how high Alice: Anybody ever tell you anything bee hives were, if they were high then about ‘little people’? there will be a lot of snow in the Royden: A long time ago they used to wintertime. If a partridge had a lot of see them—my wife’s father—by the feathers down here and if they have brook. There’s a hole in the ledge, fat legs, then there’s going to be a lot there used to be a tunnel there. That is of snow. If a person watches, there is where they lived and along the brook. a lot that falls into place. They were so small and they would Alice: So how was things for you when swim, one dove down. But I guess you moved here? they had big heads. But when they Royden: Well, the people were poor. But saw people coming they go in the for me, I started working right away, water and are not seen again. And my for Simm’s Roofing Company. About father and I were hunting on this side twenty-nine years I worked for them. of Gagetown. There used to be a Why I quit working for them is they boom which was owned by Irving, on all died off. That is the only reason I the pulp along the river. No, that was

283 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

past Oromocto, Macfetchnik [place river. I never used to believe until I belonging to MacFadzen] is what saw them myself. My father told me they called the place. Early in the this. evening, we’re walking towards Alice: I think we’re at the end of our there. My father said look over there tape Roy, so I’ll cut it off here. I have where the boom is, there’s ‘little one full tape anyway. people’ there. He said, when we get END OF TAPE near the place they’ll jump in the

284 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

22. The Snowshoe Makers

FRED TOMAH HOULTON, MAINE

Yes, that’s another thing about us that we were known to make. We were known as snowshoe makers, this tribe, the Maliseets [Wolastoqiyik] were in relation to the others. And another tribe would, Micmac (Mi’kmaq), look down and know that a Maliseet went by, because of the webbing. Very fine webbing, that’s what Maliseets were known to make. It was even a choice of webbing. The moose hide, the underbelly of a young calf was best to use.

Alice: Jim and Aubrey Tomah, their Alice: What year did they come over originally from Kingsclear, were here, do you know? they? Fred: Must have been when they were Fred: Yes, their father and mother were teenagers. Leo worked for Bangor- there when Jim and Aubrey were Aroostook Railroad, their father was born. They went to school there also, a carpenter for a good many years. He grade school. That was years ago, retired from the Bangor-Aroostook Leo lived over here most of his life, Railroad to get a pension. Boys lived so did Jim and Aubrey. They just right around this area, they lived in happened to be born there. the Houlton area. Indians were in Alice: Who was their mother? different settlements, either they were Fred: Mary, maybe, she died way before out here in the Foxcroft Road or they I was born. Soon after that they were over there in the Hungary Hill moved to the Houlton area for work, area, where they were down in the make basket and stuff like that, even flats. The last area they migrated from though they made baskets over in was the flats, moved from there to Kingsclear. Their mother was a good here. That would have been, down the basket maker, fancy baskets. As for flats where Jim’s basket shop used to Jim, he got his fussiness from her. be. They would have moved there in

285 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Plate 22.1: Aubrey Tomah of Houlton, Maine, uses a wood mallet and wood wedge to split a brown ash log which will be used for making baskets. (photo courtesy of Houlton Band of Maliseets).

286 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

the forties, late forties. Because back Alice: So going back to Aubrey and Jim, in those days there was a mill down there were originally from there. A lot of white men lived down Kingsclear, did they ever live there? there, in the houses that were built for Fred: In their childhood days, went to the mill workers. When the mill went school there. The school was funded bad, went belly up. Indians started by the Province. moving in because they happen to be Alice: So tell me how you got into living nearby anyway. basket making. I know you told me Alice: Do you know what year that that Jim and Aubrey taught you would have been? everything that you know? Fred: It would have been at least 1945. Fred: Jim, Aubrey and Leo and Charlie Somewhere around that time, because Tomah. there was a house on a flat we used to Alice: Can you tell me a little about call the Sewell House. It’s no longer that? standing, but of the two or three Fred: That was a long time ago. That houses that remain there, there is one actually started before I could re- down at the main flat area. And member, because Aubrey used to take across the street from that was the me in the woods and they went to get Sewell House, only house at the time ash. I was just a little kid, I wasn’t that had a foundation. That was built even in school. They used to take me in 1941 and it wasn’t too long after in the woods, because I guess he that the Indians started moving into didn’t have any boys. He didn’t have these other houses that were more of any kids then. He would have had a shack. Sue, his oldest daughter, was born Alice: So where did the Indians come Christmas 1953 or 1954. from that are here now? Aubrey was the one who took me in the Fred: The Houlton Band, their deriva- woods when they went to gather ash. tives of various other tribes, Tobique, And I would be crying, wanting to go Woodstock, Kingsclear. And lived back in the truck and go home. I was here even before Houlton was even about fourteen or fifteen when we founded, it’s those families. started picking it back up. Because of Alice: What year was Houlton the nature of the material, nature of Founded? the wood from the tools, I couldn’t Fred: 1860’s perhaps. There were Indi- have started any earlier than that. ans here, they were basket makers, Because of the dangerousness of the gatherers, hunters. And they used the sharpness of the tools and stuff. river here at Metaqtihkek (end of So it was around that time, that would bushes), which is what it means as a have been around 1960, ‘65 or ‘66. water tributary to the north. And they I remember because Jim bought a new gathered and hunted around here. car, a ‘67 Buick GS, a demonstrator

287 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

car. He had that for about a year and ax. Your choice of your tools, you that would have been a year to two either had to make it or acquire it in before that learning. The process, it some manner. You just didn’t use took a series of years to get it, to other persons tools, it was considered understand it. unaccepted, it was the lazy man’s Jim and Aubrey used to be a basket way of making a basket. But they, of maker and duplicate other people’s course, they showed me how to make work and stuff, but in order to do my own tools. And what choice wood your own work you have to be good to use and reason why you use it. at it. In order to be good at it, you Alice: So what kind of wood did they have to learn what we’re trying to tell tell you to use, to make your tools? you. You have to prepare yourself for Fred: Apple trees. Sounds weird in a it. way. But using an apple tree, the The very foundation of a basket is wood is extremely hard and odd finding it in the woods; the right one, shaped. The branches are odd shaped, the right tree for the right type of you can simplify your work by hav- work. Anybody could be a basket ing to carve less by finding the right maker, but if you’re going to be bend in the tree. And the thickness making certain types of baskets and and things like this. And you would you need a certain kind of wood. bake it, heat it up or let it dry natu- So at the very early stage they empha- rally. You would use that to carve it to sized that. And they would, they fit your hand. That’s the reason why made the different size baskets. They you don’t let anyone use your tools, made industrial baskets that are used because they designed it for them- in farming, clear down to what you selves. use in housework, to put valuable Alice: So have you ever designed any of things in. It varies, it’s based on your own? various type of wood they were Fred: There is no concept of designing using, that was the important part of your own. Each one is, it bends to fit all this. your hand, until it fits comfortably for Alice: So it took you a number of years your hand. to learn? Alice: What about Jim and Aubrey did Fred: Yes, even the concept of baskets you ever use theirs? itself. It’s very easy to understand, but Fred: Yeah, I used theirs. There is such a you need to make your tools. They thing as a universal one and some of are handmade, they won’t let me use the old timers use it. It’s just a their tools. straight curved handle, with the curve Alice: Do you have names for these downward for dead centre, versus it tools? being curved on its side as your Fred: Gauges, horses, things like that, holding it facing you.

288 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Alice: So does it matter what type of Alice: It’s not made to fit your hand, it’s apple tree? not made to fit anybody’s? Fred: No, it didn’t. Fred: But it’s bent. It’s not a draw shave, Alice: I never heard that before, first that is your off-the-shelf draw shave. time I heard that. Once a draw shave is chosen, it’s Fred: That was their choice, whether it’s chosen for steel contact, the older any truthfulness in it. But the date, ones are better. The Old Timers even their father told them that. would say the more carbon in the Alice: So what do you call one of those? steel the better. It will hold its edge Fred: It’s a draw shave. over a long period of time when it’s

Plate 22.2: Jim Tomah (photo courtesy of Houlton Band of Maliseets).

289 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

sharpened. That’s extremely impor- shave to shave it down. And then tant. But the handles are also bent in there’s a crooked knife. I don’t have relation to the blade direction, so you one here. I found an easy way to do have to bend those handles as a it, an easier way to use the purpose basket maker. There is a draw shave for a crooked knife. Jim and Aubrey they call a spoke shave. It does the they use crooked knives. same thing, but it’s used to make Alice: I think a lot of the older Indians spokes for wheels for the Old Timers. used crooked knives. And this is a plain draw shave, the Fred: Crooked knife had two purposes, handles are bent downward in rela- it was used taking the edges off the tion to the blade, to the workers wood, also used for scraping pur- choice and each basket maker in a poses. It had to have the best feel. sense. If he constructed a construction The best metal you could find in it. basket, that’s generally used for a It was crooked, the handle was designed construction basket, more so than a crooked. More bent in an arc then any fancy baskets. Fancy baskets, you other knife you had laying around, for would use a rim that would call for a the purpose of holding the knife in need for using that. Whereas the other your hand. Your thumb. The back side types of baskets you needed a drawn of the handle, so it will fit in your

Plate 22.3: Basket making tools (photo by Viktoria Kramer).

290 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Plate 22.4: (photo by Viktoria Kramer)

hand and the blade faced you. And course I did, I did that basket at least the way the blade was built into the three times before it was done right, handle, so it would fit in the palm of including making a different handle, your hand. And the end of the handle for it. Eventually, I got to the point would be bent outward, away from where it was considered acceptable you. That is where your thumb would for a person who was considered a rest. It would be used for taking edges green horn. They would sit there, but off, flip it around and use it for scrap- they would criticize me in such a ing. manner. They would (pause)… you Alice: So did you find it frustrating was told how to do it and if it didn’t learning off your (pause) sink in to you, then you were a waste Fred: Did I? of their time. And they didn’t like it. Alice: Let’s hear a little about that. They would say, no matter what we Fred: First basket I made all by myself, tell you, you didn’t pay attention. And I took it down to show it to Jim and if you are going to learn it, then you Aubrey. I showed it to Jim first. Jim do it this way. Details and everything. criticized the basket so bad and he Then they would, in a sense, re- told me to take apart. So I had to take explain it to you. As you make bas- it all apart, before I showed it to kets, even with them, they would re- Aubrey. Aubrey did not see all the emphasize the importance of scraping details Jim seen, but nonetheless, he wood. To make it look more present- said to take it apart and do it over. Of able than for in-house use, in the

291 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

selection of wood. When they first take it. It will take a gradual arch, but taught me, they taught me from the a handle, it won’t, it will snap. And ground up. And they used me as a also brittle wood, what we call mule, taking me in the woods and swamp ash. Ash that grows anywhere using me to haul the stuff out. And near cedar or any soft woods will be then they would explain to me the predominately brittle. It will be more area we were in, why it grows here brittle than any other tree… When and stuff. The different growth rings you go in the woods and your looking on the tree, in relation to what your around, you see an ideal location for going to do with it. And then they basket wood, any other wood in that said always notch the top of the tree, area will also be good for handles and never notch the base of the tree. rims. But that doesn’t hold true for Because it’s deceiving, if you notch handle wood. Rim, if that’s all your the tree with an ax, it determines how looking for. You can’t go into any much growth the tree has grown. tree, you have to go back to the area Alice: Does that go with any kind of where you know is good ash for wood you wanted to use? I am not basket wood. But it’s like this handle saying ash, but a tree, any tree? here, see how fairly thick the rings Fred: Well, do you mean for other uses, are? The rim with the layers are much like snowshoes or bows or stuff like closer, see what I mean? That’s the that? No, not necessarily. The reason reason behind it. Well, when I was they are telling me this is because of making a basket, I’d often bring a the nature of the handles and the rims handle or two and say, well, it’s the and the basket wood. To make the choice of your wood. That would be basket itself, it requires a different criticizing for a reason, because you growth for each one. For example: need to understand the very basics to thin grain wood, you couldn’t use it begin with. And they wouldn’t pass for weavers of any large basket. But it their baskets off to a buyer if they would be a choice of wood for rims, were made by somebody else, back in because thin growth on a tree will those days. As they got older they allow you to bend it with relative ease changed. It was important to maintain without snapping it, the wood itself the standard they made. .And the thicker the grain, real thick Alice: And you met their standards? grain stuff would be used for handles. Fred: In fact, I exceed them. Aubrey Because a handle in a basket, it took a wasn’t known as a handle or rim steep bending. It arches across the maker and he was very good at mak- top, straight down almost. It requires ing bottoms and weaving it in. He a thicker, much thicker, grain to that. really wasn’t a, per say, a handle or Because that critical bend at that rim maker. point on that tree, a thin grain will not Alice: What about Jim?

292 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

Fred: Jim was good at handles and rims. (pause) Aubrey couldn’t make bas- In fact we used to have contests, who kets on his own because he lacked the could make the fastest. We would ability to make handles and rims. have double horses and we would see Alice: When did he quit making them? who could make the most. That was Fred: Aubrey made baskets up to the back years ago, we would sit there point where he died too. Jim too. and make three dozen baskets a week. Aubrey was a sand blaster, a stone Think nothing of it together and load cutter, he did memorial stones. He did a pick up truck right up. that quite a bit, but that was seasonal. Alice: So you must have had some good When they couldn’t find a market for times with Jim? baskets they would do other things. Fred: Oh yeah, we made baskets there at Jim was a carpenter by trade. But in the shack where his father had been the beginning, in the early, early days, in. And my grandfather had made Jim was a shoe maker and we would them, he made them in my shop and talk a little about it, about other made them over where Jim and things, women folk and stuff. This Aubrey were. Me and Aubrey were was before he joined the armed the last to make baskets together. forces, he was a young kid, Jim. Not Alice: Aubrey? When did Jim quit sure when Jim was born, 1922 making them? maybe. He was a few years older than Fred: Jim never did, Jim died at a basket my father. My father was born in shop. Jim made baskets all his life. 1925, three years difference. Aubrey made baskets most of his life. Alice: Did Jim ever talk to you about But Aubrey wasn’t as good at making relatives in Kingsclear? handles and rims, so he needed some- Fred: Oh, we used to go over there, we body to finish the basket off. used to go there a lot. I met Jim’s aunt Alice: Actually, you needed one another before she died. That was when back then. Noreen lived there, when Mike and Fred: Yes, in a way. So as I got to the Daphne were small then. They were point where I could go on my own, I still in school, but they often visited did. But time to time, we would join them because Noreen was there. After forces and it would be based on for Noreen died it was like, they didn’t filling big orders. Like a thousand go down as often. Bingo was a big basket order, we’d get together and attraction for Jim and they would go do it that way. And sometimes it to bingo. Back in those days, Cana- would be a matter of company. But as dian money was worth more than time progressed, I basically went on American, so it was an incentive for my own. Often Aubrey would come going over there. In fact they would over and ask if he could make baskets go down there two times a week, with me, so we would get back three times a week.

293 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: I used to see Jim quite a bit down with their left handed baskets. St. Mary’s, at the old band hall. How Alice: What kind of stories did these many relatives do you have down men tell you? there? Fred: Stories, what kind of stories? Fred: Down there now, not too many. Alice: Well, I don’t want to hear any- There really isn’t any Tomahs to thing about women. Or did they tell speak of. you any legends or stories? Did they Alice: No, not really. tell you about little people? I hear that Fred: Although Mike is a Tomah, but quite a bit. goes by Solomon because of his END OF TAPE ONE SIDE ONE father. But other than that, that’s the TAPE ONE SIDE TWO only family that I know down there. Fred: No, they talked about Motewolon Alice: Mike would be about our age too. (person with powers) once in a while. Fred: Mike is younger than me, because There was an Indian that said he was I’m forty-six. the seventh son of a seventh son. But Alice: I was born in ‘51 and Mike has to they were always telling me, in a be close to our age. way, that Motewolon… but actually Fred: Thirty-five maybe. Motewolon is different from what Alice: No, he’s got to be older than that. they were trying to tell me. Fred: Would I be ten years older than Alice: What were they trying to tell him? Probably not. Thirty-five. Mike you? used to come Fred: That Motewolon was a person that here and make baskets. Mike is left you would shun from, stay away from handed. That’s another thing about or you would avoid. If the person tools, see if your left handed, you was, it meant bad, evil. can’t use these tools. Alice: How would they know if it was Alice: It’s funny when you say left evil? handed, because I am left handed. But Fred: Because a curse or something also right handed, so I am both. would occur when that person was Fred: Jim’s sister is left handed, Debbie. around. That would be a forerunner, I remember once we were down in things like that. But actually, the shack making baskets and they Motewolon is a little different, it’s the wove it in left handed, you could exact opposite of what they were notice it. Actually, when the basket is trying to explain to me. Motewolon is constructed, when it’s all done, it a gifted person, a person that is takes something to see where, if it’s a noticed as a child. More than any- left handed weave. But in finishing if thing, Motewolon is a gift that a off, it’s different to a left handed than person has. It’s a special person, Like to a right handed. Jim and Aubrey had a person is going to be extremely a difficult time sometimes dealing important within a group, like a

294 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

bearer, medicine man, a person that medicine man were different? could find how to make it better. That Fred: Well, they were in a way, but kind of a thing, technically that’s that’s the closest you could get to one. what a Motewolon is. But a Motewolon today is construed Alice: A Motewolon, I never heard it to to mean evil or bad. Something like be like that. that, you treaded the ground lightly Fred: Yeah, it’s a person that was con- around him. You did not upset that sidered to be—that was practised a person. But we still use it today in generation or two before Jim. That’s that way. how that term was used. And it’s been Alice: If someone does bad or wrong acknowledged to mean that and that they call them in Indian Motewolon. comes from several sources. We did a Fred: I talked to White Pete about this. historical thing on the tribe dates, This was a few years ago. Leo Tomah back before the white man really was was alive then, 1970 maybe. And I here. And that came up, why a tribe a remember we were sitting in a bingo tribe, why is a chief a chief, that game and White Pete says, do you concept of the role of leadership want to see your grandfather when he within an Indian group. Namely was a little boy? You got pictures that within our group, the Maliseets. old? He said, oh yeah. He had some Motewolon was brought up a couple real old pictures. He had some of of times, it almost could be construed Frank, he even had them pictures. to mean Sakom [Chief]. Actually, it’s This guy here, he collected every- different from Sakom. Motewolon is a thing, he never threw nothing away. little bit different than that. It’s that, Alice: Oh, I know. I was there to see his but more. It’s the person in fact, the daughter. I was talking to her, Carol, person is different. on Friday. And she said she had a lot Alice: Well, a person, the Motewolon is of photographs. And she gave me powerful. But from my understanding some material of what was written of a Motewolon, it’s more like a devil about her father, White Pete. But I or somebody that does like you said, told her maybe sometime I’ll come a forerunner. back and look at photographs. She Fred: The last Motewolon probably said I could borrow them or have around these parts would have been them photographed. Fred Tomah that died a while back. Fred: White Pete was, according to the Not my father, but a different Fred Old Timers, claimed that he was left Tomah. at a door step of an Indian when he Alice: And what was he like? was an infant. That is why they call Fred: He was a medicine man, Passa- him White Pete. maquoddy. Alice: He’s not Indian! Alice: But I thought a Motewolon and a Fred: No, he’s not Indian.

295 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Alice: But he could talk Indian? said he was never Chief of this re- Fred: Oh yeah. Well you see, when he serve. It was just something they was an infant, just born (pause) labelled him with. Because she told Alice: Well, who brought him up? me that herself, he was never Chief. I Fred: The Indians did, Woodstock don’t know why they say that or it’s reserve. They left him at a door step written, but he was never Chief over of an Indian house and they brought there. him up as one of their own. Fred: I could have swore that he was Alice: Is that right! Did he tell you that? Chief a long time ago. But then that Fred: No, Leo told me that. I confronted was before I was born. That was him about it. As a matter of fact, I before Carol was born, she would be went over to his house. At first, I was my age. invited over there from the bingo Alice: I think Carol is about fifty-five, game and we were going through all somewhere around there. these pictures and stuff. So I asked Fred: But anyway, that’s the reason they him. I said, is it true you were call him White Pete. brought up by the Indians here? He Alice: I know I was (pause) Before I said that it was true. In fact his started doing this… well Karen, mother and father, he doesn’t know Karen Perley said find out about who they are. As far as he’s con- White Pete and Oromocto Pete. Who cerned, these people that brought him is Oromocto Pete? Well I found out up are his mother and father. who he was, and I found out who Alice: Who brought him up? White Pete is. Fred: I am not sure. I think it was the Fred: There was this Pete, is he a Paul family. Another thing about it is Polchies? he said he didn’t speak English until Alice: Oromocto Pete? he was in his thirties. It was 1930 Fred: Yeah. something. He said that he spoke Alice: No, I think he was (pause) Yes, English, he started learning it. That yes, Polchies, come to think of it. was before they had electricity at the Fred: I get kind of confused in that reserve, that was some time ago then. there’s a, there was a doctor there in But then, yeah, he was left at the door Woodstock. His name was Fred step and they brought him up as an Clarke. Did you ever hear of him? Indian. And they accepted him, in his Alice: Yes, I’ve heard of him. generation time, as an Indian. As a Fred: He was a dentist, a collector of matter of fact, he was even a Chief at arrowheads and all this other stuff. He the reserve over there. liked to go to people’s property and Alice: He was. No, no, he was never look for old Indian stuff. He wrote a Chief. Carol was saying that, I was book, a book called ‘Someone Before talking to Carol on Friday and she Us’. I got this book—Leo gave it to

296 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

me or somebody—and I was reading he was at a table. He was thinking to through it and they talk about Dr. himself, the doctor was. In his dig- Peter Polchies. And from what I can gings, he couldn’t find anything gather, this is White Pete. He’s talk- beyond this particular point. And he ing about, they were at the kitchen said, and he was saying, why the table. He would often have conversa- word Meductic? Why can’t I find tions with Dr. Peter Polchies. That’s anything beyond that. And he says, how he found out what Meductic White Pete tells him what Meductic meant. Because he was doing his means. And then it finally dawns on digging, he could not find anything him that Meductic is the point where, beyond Meductic. apparently in the water tributary Alice: What does Meductic mean? process, Indians never went beyond Fred: The end of the trail. And accord- that. And that’s the cross roads of the ing to the book, according to Dr. way Indians travelled back years ago. Peter Paul, he says he uttered it when And it finally made sense to Mr.

Plate 22.5: Picture taken at Frank Tomah's home in Houlton, Maine; from left to right: Philip Tomah, Louise Tomah (now wife of the late Arthur Polchies of Kingsclear), Elizabeth Tomah, Benny Tomah, Sarah Atwin, Simon Atwin, Tom Bear (Tobique), Frank Tomah (originally of Kingsclear), Tom Forlis, Sappier Sappier (Tobique, later St. Mary's), Frank ("Weasel") Francis (former Chief at Tobique?) Gary Francis, Agnes (Francis) Forlis, Mary (Paul) Francis, mother of 14, Mrs Frank W. Francis (Mary Poligiman), her father was Noel Paul, her mother was a French woman; Mrs. Sappier, mother of 11, Leo Tomah, Peter Tomah (University of New Brunswick Archives, 74- 17378).

297 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

Clarke the reason why. the garden. I said, what about a bitch? Alice: One time when I was working for He said a bitch is a Sqehsomuhs ( the Union of New Brunswick Indians, female dog) and anyway when you there was a Herman Saulis and his say bitch, people think you are talk- wife. I thinks he knows like Pokiok, ing about a dog. Like one of those. Meductic, all these along the Saint Fred: Just like a woman purses in Passa- John River, coming up this way. She maquoddy it’s one word and in Mali- knows what they all mean and I have seet it’s a little different. yet to speak to her. Alice: My mother told me that, she said Fred: White Pete should have wrote that Moneynuht is a pocket book. But down. Because he talked about the (pause) difference in language of the younger Fred: I was playing pinochle at Pleasant generations, losing some of the Point, I was going with a girl down meaning of words. And he said he there. We were at this park and going noticed that with the language kids to somebody’s house and that came were using, they used words in a up. This girls asked this other girl to different manner. And he couldn’t pass her that, I started laughing and understand it, it bothered him im- explained it to them. They said, do mensely. you speak Indian? I said, not really, I Alice: It’s just like today, when I talk to can understand some. somebody from Princeton or Alice: Yeah, I’ve heard my father say Eastport, Bangor way there, the that too. reserve there; I find that their words Fred: Jim and Aubrey spoke Indian a lot are different. Almost the same mean- when they were around each other. ing as ours, but not quite. Back in those days, everyone made Fred: Even their dirty words, there is no baskets. We’d all be making baskets way you can say them words in for farmers and stuff. Next thing you Indian. In a way there is and in a way know Eleanor, Jim’s sister, they there isn’t. would be making bottoms, cutting Alice: Just like this man I was talking to and scraping, putting them out left from Kingsclear last week. He was and right. telling me about something that went Alice: Where is Eleanor at, what nursing on. And he said, this woman was home is she at? calling me everything in the book. Fred: The road going to Calais, there is She mentioned hoe, hoe to us right a nursing home outside of town. I now in our language Lahkihikon haven’t seen her in years. I should go (garden hoe). Until I found out last visit her too. week, to me meant a whore. No, there Alice: How old would she be? is no such word for a whore, a hoe is Fred: I think she’s in her sixties. Jim a garden hoe, when your working in was seventy something when he died,

298 Wolastoqiyik Ajemseg, Vol. 1

so yeah, she’s in her sixties. She Charlie talked about what they could could cook, whenever they’d bring teach me. To fill them in, get yourself muskrat in, she’d be cooking it. prepared. But although, Jimmy Alice: Do you eat muskrat? claimed to me what needs to be done, Fred: Yes, when I can get it. what to use and it has some similari- Alice: Me too. My mother used to cook ties to basket making. that in a stew or she would bake it. Alice: Snowshoes? That was good. It’s been a long time Fred: Yep, especially making the hoop since I had muskrat. Ronnie Paul, on for the snowshoes. It’s done the same our reserve, he still traps. way as a handle for a basket or a rim. Fred: Over here it’s regulated, white Because the outside of the tree has man has laws on that. Can’t go do never been disturbed. That’s one that without getting an act of con- thing you don’t want to do is bother gress, but hopefully in the near future the outside of that tree, the last we can change that. And her husband growth ring. But if you do, then you Fred Perley, he’s from Tobique. He have to take it down to the next would (pause) growth ring. Nine times out of ten Alice: He made a what? you won’t because it’s important, Fred: A pretty good bottom for a basket, extremely important for that. Because he’s quick. He’s a barber by trade. when the shoes gets cold in the win- When we’d all need a haircut, sit tertime, if that tree—of course it down and he’d get his shears out and would be less cold as it is outdoors. If give us a hair cut. Didn’t cost us it’s really cold like subzero, then the anything for a hair cut when Fred was nose of that shoe will crack, break on around. Never had to worry about you when it’s not done right. And by fixing anything up because Jim or doing that by, not bothering the Leo were carpenters. outside, it won’t break. See that the Alice: You know it’s funny, we look at gist of that? The modern ones are Indian people—like when I was just sawed out stuff and put it through a thinking about it here—it’s like they steamer and all that stuff. Anyway didn’t have trades back then, but they made the same way as a rim. As far as did. Like you were saying, Jim was a making that, it would freeze. carpenter, Aubrey was a stone cutter. Alice: What the snowshoe? You don’t hear that too much, about Fred: Yes, that’s another thing about us what the old Indian did for a trade. that we were known to make. We We’re always looking at them as just were known as snowshoe makers, this Indian people. And oh, he knows how tribe, the Maliseets [Wolastoqiyik] to make baskets. And that was it. were in relation to the others. And Fred: When I was a kid, they used to another tribe would, Micmac make snowshoes down here. Leo and (Mi’kmaq), look down and know that

299 KCI AKONUTOMAKONAL Important Stories and Spoken Histories

a Maliseet went by, because of the Alice: Who made that basket over there, webbing. Very fine webbing, that’s the small one? what Maliseets were known to make. Fred: A Micmac (Mi’kmaq) made that, It was even a choice of webbing. The my sister’s basket, kids broke the moose hide, the underbelly of a handle. I’ll take it over, I’ll see if I young calf was best to use. And you can put a handle on it. But I think it make gauges too, just like you use for will be a difficult process, it’s a cutting this stuff up. You cut them the melon basket. I never made one same way. After it’s been scraped, myself. prepared, once it has been gauged to Alice: So you’re going to get me a copy the size, then you have to stretch it. of the green book, so I’ll know your There used to be stretchers down family tree? there. Something like this, nothing Fred: We have that somewhere, not but wheels to separate it. Stretch it necessarily in the green book. It’s in a real hard on one end, let it sit there report that a guy named James for a while and go back pull some Wherry is the one who did this. The more. Stretch it and the remainder Association of Aroostook Indians wrap it around the other wheel. They years ago, it explains a lot. Even it have these scrapers there. I remember explains the structure of an Indian when I was a kid, they had the hide tribal group in ancient times. It says, outdoors, frozen, and bring them in it talks about the council and why a and scrape it. That was the easiest council was a council. I found it very way to do it, scrape it down to the interesting, although today white proper thinness. The scraper was man’s government (pause) The Chief concave and it was cut like, it had a is a Chief, he can say and do every- handle on it, you use that for scrap- thing and they all accept it. But ing. After it has all been scraped then actually it isn’t true, this explain it. you start at an end somewhere and a Alice: A Chief is only a council member continuous weave. Continuously cut that’s all, he just carries that title, that big, long piece until it was done. that’s it. Just like us down that way, I could do all that, but I don’t know same way. You can overpower him how to weave it in, even though I am any time if you choose to. sitting here a fast weaver. Although Fred: Here, this government won’t I’d probably take one from the shack, recognize that. And we tried to do one down here. In fact, I’ll go get one that here, but it caused all kinds of bring it here and study it. riffs and he won as a result of that. Alice: Who made the ones that are at the But we’re going to change that soon. shack? Fred: God only knows. I am just taking [Tape Stops Abruptly] a wild guess, this is going to be a cat head basket, this one. 300 The People of the Beautiful River at Jemseg V olume 1: Important Stories and Spoken Histories The People of the Beautiful River at Jemseg

Volume 1: Important Stories and Spoken Histories

edited by

Karen Perley and Susan Blair

New Brunswick Manuscripts in Archaeology 34E Archaeological Services Services d'archéologie Heritage Branch Direction du patrimoine Culture and Sport Secretariat Secrétariat à la Culture et au Sport