Dorothy and Alvin Katzenmeyer
Interview August 19, 1993
Amy K. Rieger-Interviewer Lake Itasca, Minnesota Project
Contents of the interviewHistory includeSociety the Katzenmeyers' experiences as a seasonal park employee Oraland as Lake Itasca Post Mistress.
Park Historical
State
Minnesota Itasca
Itasca State Park Oral History Project Dorothy and Alvin Katzenrneyer Interview August 19, 1993 Amy K. Rieger-Interviewer
The following is an interview with Dorothy and Alvin Katzenrneyer. Recorded August 19, 1993, at their home near Lake Itasca.
Rieger: Okay. Like I said I'll start at the beginning, first with you, Mrs. Katzenmeyer, when and where were you born?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: At Hutchinson, Minnesota, in 1927, July 23rd. We lived in Brownton, Minnesota, but, on a farm that my parents had and grandparents before 'them had owned and moved away from there when I was about six. Project Rieger: Where is that?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It's uh
Rieger: I'm not familiar with that area.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: west of the Twin Cities.History Society
Rieger: West of the Twin Cities.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't knowOral how many miles, forty miles maybe, maybe a little more. Rieger: But you're fromPark a farm Historical family? Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: Okay. Where did you move when you were six? Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State Well we moved to a little community called Lakeside which was kind of a mid-point between Hutchinson and Buffalo Lake and Hector and Stewart, Minnesota, it's out in the country. Minnesota Rieger:Itasca Sort of in the same area. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, it was a little town with a store and a creamery and a few houses and a schoolhouse, that's where I went to country school.
- .~ - "--~ .. '.~- Rieger: So you grew up just right -in that area then c-" -.-
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: until?
1 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: until I was married.
Rieger: Okay, I'm just curious about your educational background. Did you go to eighth grade, high school?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I went to high school, and I went to country school for seven years and then I went to a parochial school for one year, and then, uhf went to high school in Hutchinson. But I did not graduate because I got married.
Rieger: Okay. What grade?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Eleventh.
Rieger: Eleventh, okay.' Okay, well I guess I'll move onto you then, Mr. Katzenmeyer, when and where were you born? Project Mr. Katzenmeyer: I was born in Wolf Point, Montana.
Rieger: Montana? Okay, how did you end up in Minnesota then?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well my folks were there and when I was two years old they moved back to Minnesota again,History backSociety to the home area. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And Montana was just a two year period out of their lives and they went back.
Rieger: Okay, um, and that wasOral in 19, I have that down somewhere, he was born in Mr. Katzenmeyer: 1918.Park Historical Rieger: 1918.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: September 21st.
Rieger: When youState moved back to Minnesota then
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They moved onto a farm for a few years, the, uh, dad had an uncle who was a bachelor and had several farms, and he run one of the farmsMinnesota for him and then my mother's folks retired and he took over their farm, their homestead, they had homesteaded it in yearsItasca they had come with covered wagon from New York state.
Rieger: Hmmm.
~r._Katzenmeyer: And we were there until we ended up here. ------~--. -: -. "'--~·~T~ r._.,.,-,_~,--_: '_::i ," Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And that was in the same area then.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was in Hector, Minnesota.
2 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Hector. Yeah, we only lived about SlX miles apart.
Rieger: So then did you know each other when you were growing up?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: We only met through 4-H and community gatherings and stuff like that. I had a cousin, one of my dad's sisters was married to a man named Fisher and they lived neighbor to her and she was a good friend of one of their daughters. I guess that's kind of the way we met.
Rieger: Okay. Did you go through eighth grade, high school, urn?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: High school.
Rieger: High school. Project Mr. Katzenmeyer: I have a high school education. Out of high school I worked, I went from there to a county agents office and that in those days the farm program was handled through the county agents office and I worked there for several years helping with that part of the, of his job, you know, with the signing up of the farmers and making out and filling out their papers and things like that. Renville County was the county,History and atSociety that time, they used to seal what they called sealing their corn in the fall. They would test it for moisture and then they would get an advancement until they could sell it see to help keep operating. And Renville County was the first one thatOral had the electronic testing device that was when they first come out with the electronic test for moisture for corn. And the first one was stationed in Renville County, and I run that. That was my job for a couple of years. When fall came, I had Parkto make Historical out all the papers for all that, grade the corn because they'd come in samples, and make out the reports and then they got paid accordingly.
Rieger: Hmmm. That would be interesting to get ln on the new invention or whatever.State Mr. Katzenmeyer: Before that it was all the old oil, you know they cooked it. Minnesota Rieger: Right. Hmmm. Wow. Let's talk a little bit then, you had mentionedItasca before, urn that you visited Itasca before you actually came up here in 1945.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, when I got out of high school a friend of "mine that graduated from Hutchinson the same year and I and an old 'fr'iend of his that had been coming up here fishing for years, the three of us came up here fishing. And I had, my mother had a cousin that lived here at the time, and we came up and stayed there with them and fished.
3 Rieger: What were their names?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Uh, their name was Butler. That would be Keith Butler's folks.
Rieger: Okay. I talked to him last week [not understandable] .
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Related.
Rieger: Okay. Everyone around here is related.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, isn't that funny?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Before that my brother and I had accompanied my dad and mother up here on I suppose it was probably three or four years before that one fall when dad came up here deer hunting, we just, he had another, mother had another cousin from the same family of Butler, but it was Briggs Butler and Projectthey lived over on the river just north of here. Their name was Pierson. Dad always went there to hunt deer, had been going there since 1925. So we just come one fall, you know we were just kids, we didn't hunt or anything we just came along with him. That was the first time I'd ever been here. HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: What year did you start deer hunting? You came up here with your dad deer hunting.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: 1940 I thinkOral it was.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Armistice Day storm. Mr. Katzenmeyer: What?Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: The Armistice Day storm, wasn't that the year?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: The snow was so deep that all that stuck out was my ears. State Rieger: Right here, up here, there was Mr. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Well, yeah, of course up here it was on the level down where we were on the farm down there we had 16 foot drifts that year.Itasca
Rieger: Wow.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well I guess everybody knows a little bit about "'" 'i:ha't:Arm.1.stice- Day storm',' of ' course the'southern part of the state got it worse than this did.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: In fact, we didn't get up here until the season was pretty well along because it hit right when we were going to
4 · ...... , ~
leave and by the time we got dug out boy part of the season was over. Rieger: That's a lot of snow. What were some of your first impressions then, seeing the park?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, I liked it up here, I liked the area, and people seemed to be friendly and everything and then one of the main reasons that we came up here, I, my dad during the second World War, he never really cared that much for farming, he was always more of a mechanic and liked other things better, he had decided that he was going to the west coast and work in the ship yards. They had gone out there and he had been out there for several years and I at that time quit the county agent's office and took over the farm when 'we got married, but I had terrible time down in that country with hay fever. And it got so bad that the last year that it turned almost into asthma. Project Rieger: Hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I couldn't even sleep laying down, I had to sit up in a chair overnight, and you couldn't get any help, you know, they trained a few kids in the cities, but you know they had three weeks training and they didn't know reallyHistory whatSociety they were going to be doing anyway so they were really practically useless to you, you know.
Rieger: Right. Oral
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And that fall we just decided, I've only got one eye, and the draft, I was drafted, in fact I enlisted the first time because I wanted toPark get itHistorical taken care of, you know, and they wouldn't take me, but they put me in what they called limited service, and they kept calling me back all the time. So we just decided to have a sale and then we went west and worked in the ship yards until the war was over, and when we come back we came up here. State
Rieger: Okay. How long were you out there then, out west?
Mr. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Well, from 44
Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca About a year.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: to the fall of 45, it was about a year,
.. ~;-_~.~~ . K~ t zenmeyer : About a year . Mr. Katzenmeyer: year and a half I guess, something like that. In the meantime, I had been up here in the fall before and the hay fever didn't bother me near as bad up here. Apparently I was allergic to something, always felt it was the ragweed, I'm not sure
5 because in those days they didn't have tests or anything for it, you just toughed it out, you know. And I went to the doctor and there was nothing they could do
Rieger: Right.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: because they didn't know anything about it.
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: So that was the main reason we moved up here was because my, health was better here too so.
Rieger: What year were you married?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: 1943. We just had our 50th anniversary.
Rieger: Oh, congratulations! Wow. Project
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Just, uh, the 30th of July.
Rieger: When you came before, with you dad deer hunting or fishing or anything of that, can you describe the park facilities at that time, urn, at all or did they make anyHistory impressionSociety on you, what the park had?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, yeah, of course we weren't here for any length of time, Oral
Rieger: Right. Mr. Katzenmeyer: we werePark here onlyHistorical for several days at a time and so we didn't get a chance to go to a lot of places. And it seemed like back in those days there was a little resentment in the area too over that, you know, I think the park was a political football. Every time the politics changed hands, republican or democrat whichever, the Statemanagement in the park changed hands. Sometimes that happened every four years or whatever you know. Rieger: Right. Minnesota Mr. Katzenmeyer: And I think it had kind of left a sour note and then anotherItasca thing was the forestry station was stationed in the park at the time. Forestry and parks were separate divisions at that time, they were not all part of a DNR like they are today. They were all separate and there seemed to be a kind of feud between them as to who was running the park and who wasn't. You 'fuow what" I mean .'
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm, yeah, yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And because of that I don't think we saw as much
6 of it as we probably would have because the people who we came to see weren't that enamored about the park at the time.
Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well I guess your basic interest was the fishing anyway.
Rieger: Right.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I, you know, sure we went through there and we liked it and I'd been to Butlers and had a picture of myself, first time I was up here, down on the headwaters and it was neat, it was nice, at that time the headwaters complex was all on this side of the river, you know the 'old, you know the building they had for souvenirs.
Rieger: Right. Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And all that, and then .they had the, that was about the time the indian pageants just coming to a close. They've had a lot of them, and I think they had several after we got up here but not too many, you know. HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think we just saw one. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Pretty commonOral you know up until that time. Rieger: Were the CCC camps still up here when you were, when you visited? They wouldn't have been up here in 45, but or at least the boys weren't. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: No, no they weren't, they were gone
Rieger: They were gone by then. Mr. Katzenmeyer:State when I got here. I think the one here went out in 37 if I'm not mistaken. That was before I ever got up here.
Rieger: Do you remember meeting at the time, meeting any of the forestry guys, thisMinnesota Frank Pugh? Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Well, I knew Frank Pugh. Met him before we lived up here and then knew him quite well after, and the family quite well, after we lived up here you know. Because they were still at the park then. In fact, one of his oldest daughters, I was on the ~c~o9l board, and she was a practice teacher here.
Rieger: Everything I've read about him, and the people I've talked to just thought he was a really nice person.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Frank was a good guy, yeah, Frank was good.
7 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Have you seen that book that his, I don't know who put it out, but there is a book about him and his life.
Rieger: A book, really?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: Hmmm. No, I, Bert Pfeifer lent me a paper that he had gotten from a gentleman up at Bemidji State that
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: This wasn't a book, but I knew it was a mimeographed thing, I don't know how many pages it would have but, maybe 20, 30 pages. I mean it had quite a bit.
Rieger: Right, right. Was it by a Bemidji State University student? Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It may have been.
Rieger: Okay. Because I've read something that's what I got a lot of, Timothy Lundeen I think was his
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I wonder if that's, I think that was one grandson maybe. HistorySociety
Rieger: Yeah, yeah, that was it.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Because theOral oldest daughter's married name is Lundeen. Rieger: Okay. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, she was a practice teacher.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, she was a teacher.
Rieger: Yeah, StateI've been trying to figure out if I knew, I'm sure I probably did because the paper was written right when I was there, Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Oh yeah. Rieger:Itasca I'm sure I knew him if he was in history. I just can't, well anyway that's beside the point.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: You can't remember everybody.
'Riege'r: yeah,what~areybu·'goin>g'Eb'~~do':-">~·Dm,well let's I okay, we've established that you were here and you saw the park and had some good times and felt that there was a little bit of resentment in the community. Urn, but then in 1945 you moved up here after your marriage and
8 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, we had two little boys when we came here.
Rieger: Two small kids.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: Did you move right here?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No, there was nothing here. We had bought the land but there was nothing here except the well.
Rieger: Where did you stay then?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Which probably, you know, at today's prices the well was probably worth 'more than what we paid for the whole 160 acres but. Yeah, we lived about a mile and a half north on this road out here, by the way is Easy Street. Project Rieger: Easy Street?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't know if you're aware of that but it comes out of the park and goes north,
Rieger: Right. HistorySociety
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: that's Easy Street.
Rieger: Easy Street. Oral
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But we lived up in I guess you'd call it a tar paper shack that first Parkwinter. HistoricalIt was cold. Rieger: Oh, I bet!
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And Alvin's folks were with us and we had the two little kids and we spent most of the winter just keeping warm and fed. State Rieger: Uh, huh. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota But we survived. Rieger:Itasca Right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But there, you know, there was no running water, not any water at all, and we had to haul water in and wash clothes and all that kind of stuff.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Heated with wood stoves and
9 Rieger: You moved in in the fall?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, late in fall.
Rieger: Late fall.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And then we stayed there for the one winter.
Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But in the meantime we were getting this place ready.
Rieger: So you worked on building the place through the winter as well?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Through the winter and then the following summer, and I guess it was in 47 that we movedProject in finally toward the end of fall in 47.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: The fall and second winter we spent down at Parkview resort [formerly Schneider's] .
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, we spent down,History thereSociety was a resort, you know, down Rieger: Mmmm-hrnmm. Oral Mrs. Katzenmeyer: where the store was.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They had some apartments in the barn that was down there. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, we spent the second winter there and then after that we have been here ever since. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.State Mr. Katzenmeyer: We got things concluded so we could move in here. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota We had a little bit of livestock at the time too, andItasca we used to have to come and milk the cows and commute. Rieger: Oh, not easy, oh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No, it wasn't. They'd uh, oh sometimes they walked. I suppose it's about a mile and a half
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: down there to the corner where we lived but, and then worked on the house and fencing and all that kind of stuff.
10 Mr. Katzenmeyer: We all worked out some too you know whenever there was work
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I worked you know you had to keep making a dollar and then whenever what hours I wasn't working why we worked on the buildings
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: and trying to get things lined up you know.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: His folks and us came together and we lived together for oh several years Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: so that you know everybody kind of worked together.
Rieger: Right.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There was a veteransHistory camp Societyhere at one time over at Squaw Lake Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: you've probably heard about that. Rieger: The Air Force.Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: There was several
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well before the Air Force there was another
Mr. Katzenmeyer:State No, that was before the Air Force.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: Okay. Minnesota Itasca Mrs. Katzenmeyer: This was before the Air Force [not understandable] .
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But anyway the ones that, the doctors and some of the head of them had cabins and they lived outside of it, away from the 'group see and they just went in. ~c5ne~6f the cabins was right down the road on 200 here, you know where A.C. Dick lives? Just the other side of the river?
Rieger: Okay.
11 Mr. Katzenmeyer: On the hill there.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Just beyond that there was a, one of the log cabins there, and that became available at the time so my folks bought that and we moved that, and that's the cabin that's over there on the corner now
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: except that it's been repaired
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: you know, fixed up and new siding on it. It was a log cabin. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, but up until then we had lived together both In a shack and then the apartments and then here. So we were kind of crowded. A little crowded and not much privacy. Rieger: Hmrnm. Well you have to do whatHistory youSociety have to do right. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well we've got some real good memories of those times though.
Rieger: Oh yeah, I bet. Oral
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: It would eitherPark drive Historical you crazy or pull you together I guess.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I guess if you live together more than anything else. State Rieger: Now you said you had visited once before you moved up here in 1945.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Mmmm-hmmm, yeah, I guess it was the fall after we wereItasca married we came up here. Uh, we got up here after dark and you know as we came, I suppose it was maybe dark when we came out of Park Rapids and my whole impression, see we came from prairie country, all the trees were just to grow around places and my impression was going through a tunnel, you know because there were trees. You know 71 wasn't very wide at that time. . . ,,"",' '" '~""'-''''~ ..'-, ..- - - -- .- --'.'" "".' -.- - - - ,~' - Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And the trees grew right up, and here were these tall trees and it was just like going through a tunnel, but it was
12 really kind of awesome too. And then we drove through the park because that was the only way to get anywhere was through the park and then to see those huge trees. I couldn't get a real good look at dark, after dark with the headlights, but boy you were enough to see they were big. But, uh, I really liked, I felt at home here.
Rieger: You did?
Mrs. Katzeruneyer: I mean when we came up here I felt like
Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: this was the right place to be.
Rieger: Well that's interesting because I have always and met a couple of people that urn you know they come from prairie area and they're like afraid of the trees. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: It's like claustraphobic. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yep. HistorySociety Rieger: You didn't have any problems like that?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No, nothing like that at all. I'm not claustraphobic about anything Oralanyhow. Rieger: Well, that's good. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I guessPark I canHistorical see where they might, but Rieger: You know being able to see on a prairie
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm, yeah. State Rieger: forever and then all of sudden you can't see
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, no that didn't bother me. Maybe it was just as well I cameMinnesota in the dark, I don't know. Rieger:Itasca Well, did you get to see any of the park or the area
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, yeah
Rieger: when the daylight came.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, yeah, the people we stayed with you know took us down through the park
Rieger: Uh, huh.
13 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and went to the headwaters and all the touristy stuff.
Rieger: Right. What were your impressions of that first time visiting the park?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well I thought it was completely different than anything I had ever seen before.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And of course I guess it was kind of, urn, you're going to the headwaters of the Mississippi, it was kind of a, well I guess it was "the" thing to do, but I mean it was kind of special. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And I crossed on the rocks just like everybody else does.
Rieger: Yeah, like they do today.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. We had our HistorypicturesSociety taken.
Rieger: When it's not flooded.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, had ourOral pictures taken and all that.
Rieger: Buy any souvenirs at the little [shop]? Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don'tPark know Historical that we did. Mr. Katzenmeyer: I don't remember either.
Rieger: I understand there's some talk about restoring that down there. State
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: The old head
Rieger: The oldMinnesota Itasca Mrs. Katzenmeyer: The old souvenir shop?
Rieger: The little shop there yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh yeah? ~ • < ••- -.-.'".:-. -,- Rieger: Like they did the log house or something.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Hmmm.
14 Mr. Katzenmeyer: All it was, the last time I was in there, it was still standing.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Is it still standing?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It's getting in pretty bad repair. You know they, over the years a lot of the buildings have been destroyed because they, I shouldn't say a lot, but there have been some that could have been restored and kept you know.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, can't keep everything.
Rieger: That's something I'd like to address you know maybe towards the end is your feelings on, I know you mentioned before a little bit in the preliminary interview about the lack until the last several years of interest in the park heritage or history, so yeah that's something I'd like to talk about later.Project Keep that in mind.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I would just, um, was it you or someone who just recently was talking about that souvenir, that old souvenir building and that it had been somewhere else in some other building or had been somewhere else and used for something else and then moved in there. HistorySociety
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Probably could have been. I don't, I don't know.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Was it you Oralor did someone else tell me that?
Rieger: I don't think I told you that but I think I've heard that. I'm not exactly sure onPark Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, that it was
Rieger: on the logistics or anything. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State yeah that it had been used somewhere else for some other purpose before and then it was moved in there.
Rieger: It seems like a lot of the buildings around there have been around. Minnesota Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, and I can't, and I can't remember what it was now.
Rieger: Yeah, 1/11 have to check that out. I think you're right, but I just offhand right now can't remember. I always think the building that they moved, the cabin from what was it Aiton Tower, that they moved down to where the boat landing is now, I love that story. But that's later on in the history.
15 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: Okay, one question you called this street Easy Street. Was there any reason in particular it was called?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: We asked that and I guess the only thing we were ever told is that, urn, the farmers who lived on Easy Street liked to take it easy.
Rieger: [Laughs] Oh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And so that, you know, we lived on Easy Street too.
Rieger: That's good. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: We were here awhile before weProject knew it was Easy Street.
Rieger: Hrnmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And a lot of people still, a few years ago they put up, the township I believe, put upHistory a sign.Society Mr. Katzenmeyer: No, it was the county.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Or the county on Easy Street and it wasn't two days and it was stolen. Oral
Rieger: Really.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I supposePark some, Historical some ...
Rieger: Huh. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State body had it In a dorm room or something. Rieger: Yeah. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota I suppose this was a neat sign to have. Rieger:Itasca Huh. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: You know, Easy Street.
Rieger: That's too bad.
I -M-rs. Kat£enmeyer: - - Yeah~ -arid I -don't:--'giTes·s' they didn't put-up -- - I another one.
Rieger: For fun.
16 Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well they came a couple of years later when they put one up, one of these plastic ones fits into kind of a tube.
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: You know?
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They tried to steal that, but they ended up breaking it and then I guess the County just gave up on it, you know.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Right. Can't blame them.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Just left it as a number.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Project
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. Yeah they did
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It's kind of too bad because, uh, even a lot of the people in the county know about EasyHistory Street,Society you know. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Kind of interesting too that, uh, other road that runs into the park from Highway 200 in, kind of diagnolly there, that didn't have a name or a number for a long time and a number of years back the townshipOral decided the road should have a name, it was township road, and nobody could come up with a name and finally somebody suggested No Name Road and that was what went up there, No Name Road, and later somebody came into the store over there and said they werePark looking Historical for "No-nam-e" Road. [Laughter] They thought it was old Indian name.
Rieger: "No-nam-e", hmmm. Now was that the McDonald store Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State Mmmm-hmmm. Rieger: that was there? Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Mmmm-hmmm. Yeah, it had had other owners ... Rieger:Itasca Right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: before that but it was the McDonalds.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Patten was the original owner.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: Patten?
17 Mr. Katzenmeyer: He was the one that, see the building sat in the park.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: That was the Wegmann Store originally.
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was the Wegmann Store originally, and when he died or she died, she was the last to die, Bowman was running the store, had bought the store and was running the store at that time, his lease was good for another couple years after she passed away, the agreement had been with the state that when that family was gone then that would all be moved out and the land would be theirs. See I guess they had already bought it or whatever. And he was there for a couple of years and then the lease was out and couldn't be renewed so then Patten bought it and moved it up here to the corner. Project Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And he had it and then when he left then Oanes bought it, Harold Oanes, Harold and Marie Oanes and their family and then when they retired why then McDonaldHistorySociety took over. Rieger: Okay. Mr. Katzenmeyer: And he was theOral last one to have it. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: See the We gmanns, urn,
Mr. Katzenmeyer: That was the old original Wegmann Store. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: where the log cabin was there, but there also they had the store and then behind that was a house plus a whole set of farm buildings and we wound up with a good share of those farm buildings, and the house is no longer existing either because that was moved Stateout and was the parsonage for the Catholic church, and it burned. Rieger: Burned.Minnesota That's the one that burned. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Mmmm-hmmm. Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, but that was all part of that Wegmann
Rieger: Right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: [maybe the buildings were all?] moved away.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: The store building set down here, that was a
18 resort too you know. That was Schneider's resort.
Rieger: That was where Schneider, okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There was a big inn and a bunch of cabins and a barn and out buildings, you know, it was a good sized establishment too.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, well that lodge was pretty good sized.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Of course it was strictly summer.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: You know everything was just screened and you know you could not stay there in the winter, butProject it was strictly summer but it was you know big, airy, nice big rooms.
Rieger: How many buildings were with resort, just the one building with the rooms or?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Do you mean HistorySociety
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Where there were cabins.
Rieger: Schneider's resort. OralThey were cabins.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Cabins also. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.Park There Historical was one almost a home sized building, I think it had been the home for somebody, it was small, you know [not understandable] .
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, but it had a couple of small bedrooms and big enough for Statea small house. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, and then there was a string of cabins, I remember the big barn, [not understandable] barn. Most of the cabins were, wellMinnesota they were built kind of like motel rooms, you know, there was a string of them all built together and then there were justItasca individual cabins or individual rooms I should say.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well they were strictly summer cabins.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: The bigger one that was used to the house was winterized, but the rest were summer cabins.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
19 Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was comparable to the one that was across the river behind [not understandable] Heizelman's resort, you know.
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was over there. And both of them ended up getting tore down.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: Let:s talk first of all just a little bit you came after Wegmanns were gone.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: But didn't you say that you met Theodore Wegmann?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I met him because he wasProject still there when I was up here that time and I had been in the store and introduced to him and met him. Never had a chance to really visit or you know sit down and talk to him, but knew who he was.
Rieger: Okay. What were your impressions of him? Just that outside impression. HistorySociety
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, I don't know when you meet somebody like that it's hard to say right. offOral hand. He seemed to be friendly. Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: The time that I met him he was friendly and asked questions about where ParkI came fromHistorical and different things like that. I had heard before that he didn't do things like that.
Rieger: Yeah, I Mr. Katzenmeyer:State I know that he was kind of disciplined and it kind of Rieger: Yeah. Minnesota Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca floored me that it was different Rieger: Huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: but my impression of him was not, you know I mean that he gave me was that he was friendly.
Rieger: Okay. That's what I was curious about because I have heard
[End side one, tape 1]
20 [Begin side two, tape 1]
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I don't know that I met her [Mrs. Wegmann]. She came into the store and asked him something and then just left
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: and I saw her at that time.
Rieger: Okay. Now can you describe the store at that time that you saw it. .It wasn't, for a long time I was under the impression that it was just that one little building that they had. I should have thought that they would have grown from there
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah Rieger: to have that big Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It was a fair size
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was a fair sized building and they had the counters and things in there. Groceries along the side and then on the side of it was another building, uh, I don't think was used much in the winter time. HistorySociety
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It was kind of just a lean-to part of it, yeah, it had been tacked on. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: Kind of a lean-to thing and they had booze out there and the young people used to go out there and oh have a malted milk or a float or sundae or something, you know what I mean. Park Historical Rieger: Right. A little ice cream parlor.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Drink pop, drink pop or whatever, you know, and sit out there andState sometimes in the evenings when it was warm why there was a lot of people that sat out there.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, even when we came though they still had those little, theyMinnesota had the little round ice cream tables with the wire backedItasca chairs. Rieger: Oh, okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mrs.~ Katzenmeyer: I suppose there's maybe a few of those chairs still in existence somewhere because
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well a cousin of mine bought a whole mess of them, 21 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I don't know what they called the, what did they call them ice cream chairs?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well I guess they call them ice cream chairs or ice cream parlor chairs, but I mean, you know what I mean.
Rieger: Yeah, yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: They all kind of looked alike.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: He's kind of an antique dealer anyway and he was here at the store. See they moved that part, but they had to take it off to move the building, and they were never able to really get it back on there the way it should have been.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It was there, but it was Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was there, but it never, never was as good. Because they had tore it off the side, you know. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm, mmmm-hmmm. HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, but later on that part was the part that was used for the groceries and the big part was used for a, uh, lunches and souvenirs Oral Mr. Katzenmeye: More of a bar. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and things likeHistorical that. Yeah, well, yeah. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Sold Parkbeer.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm. No, but they served food too, and Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Served food, yeah. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: they had their souvenirs in there. Rieger: This wasMinnesota once it, once it moved down to the store over here. Itasca Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, yeah.
Rieger: . Did you ,recal1r"cuffi""were they·running the, little restaurant type place at the Wegmanns when it was at the Wegmanns? I understand that you could get sandwiches or hamburgers there too.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, yeah, you could get a hamburger or a cold
22 sandwich, you know, or something. I don't know that they ever got anything very
Rieger: Right, not a full restaurant or anything, no.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: No, not a real meal or anything.
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And I'm not sure that it was there all the time. I think that was maybe during the busy season. I don't think they monkeyed much at other times. Of course, people didn't go out much in those days. Right back in those times, it was hard times, you know. You didn't have money to go very far. Project Rieger: Right. Yeah, then you had rationing during the war, so you know. Okay. Let's talk a little bit, urn, then about some of the other, urn, you described Schneider's resort a little bit, which was good because I've never really, and they said, you know people say, "Oh, there's Schneider's resort there," but they never really described it. HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Hard to see that anything was there now, isn't it?
Rieger: Right, yeah, urn, but howOral about like some of the other ones like Heinzelmans and Sauers, and not just their little resorts or inns, but them themselves. Did you know them, and can you describe some of that? Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: We knew Sauers, but urn
Mr. Katzenmeyer: We knew Sauers real well, uh, Heinzelmans had left about the time we got here so I don't know that I ever met them at all. State
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Mostly from hear say. Schneiders you and I met them. Itasca Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I remember them too. They lived in Park Rapids after they retired. And that land across from the north entrance was part of Heinzelmans and that we own that now, but that was part of Heinzelmans property at one time.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: The big, the big
23 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: [field across from the post office ?]
Rieger: What type of people were, urn, the Sauers, I guess let's start with them?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well we were, you know, pretty, pretty good friends with them. The grandfather and grandmother were still living and pretty active when we first came. He was a carpenter and you know did, oh he made a lot of little things. He used to, as he got older and I suppose he couldn't do a lot of other things, why he made· little jewelry, beads, wooden jewelry, and little knickknacks, uh, those little birch toothpick holders came from him,
Rieger: Oh! Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and I got a little footstool Projectthat he made, and little things like that he did that.
Rieger: Oh, neat!
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And he lived to be what well up in his nineties.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. HistorySociety
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: 95 or 6 somewhere along there I think.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: He used to haveOral everybody looking for burls, you know on trees you've seen them where they
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: They're kind of knotty and their limbs go every which way. Park Historical Rieger: Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Where they're deformed, you know, Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: no grain to it or anything, you know, especially birch. He likedMinnesota them and then you know he cut them off and then he'd makeItasca these souvenirs and stuff out of that because there's no grain that shows, you know, the wood is real pretty.
Rieger: Right. That was Ernest?
~rs. KatzE:!nmey~r :_~!!1el3t,xeah..
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Ernest, yeah. He was real handy with things like that. I brought, when I come back from the shipyards, I worked in the shipyards, and they had a wood out there that they used in the stern tubes in ships, some of the ships you know for bearings, real
24 hard,
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: it's a South Pacific wood of some kind, they call it lignum vitae, and I had some pieces of that that I brought back and I took it over and thought he'd like to use some of that, but it was too hard for his tools. [not understandable] tools so he didn't think much of that.
Rieger: Hmmm. When you first arrived then, was it a pretty close knit community, were there a lot of community activities or?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: We had a country school at that time and I think a lot of the community stuff kind of revolved around the school. Because there were programs, and there were school picnic at the end of the year, and things like that. Project Rieger: Is that the Lake Itasca school?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: In Lake Itasca school and it was, uh, about a half mile north of where the store and post office is up there. But I think a lot of the community stuffHistory kindSociety of, uh, Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, the township and the organization itself and the school were the two things that kind of seemed to bring everybody pretty much together,Oral you know. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It seemed like, uh
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And there was, there was politics, the same as any place else, you knowPark what I Historicalmean, there was, whenever there was an election there was several people that would run and you know they'd
Rieger: Were people pretty interested in the local politics at the time? State Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think so. Mr. Katzenmeyer: MinnesotaAt that time they were much more so than they are now Itasca Rieger: I was going to say and now it's national
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: [not understandable] and now they can't get anybody to do anything now.
Rieger: Right.
25 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: They probably didn't realize how little they, of what they did had any real impact.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, it seemed like, urn, right in this neighborhood there was kind of a mixture of nationalities and you know it wasn't all one like it is in many places or used to be, not so much anymore, but used to be. There'd be a little settlement of just Norwegians or Germans or whatever, but right around here it was just a little of everything and I don't know if that's because of the park or "lhat.
Rieger: Yeah, that's an interesting observation because yeah
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I guess there were several, like Heinzelman and Sauer and Schneider and those were all German, but then there were others too. I guess they probably didn't get asProject to be as much of a clique or as much of a clan or they spread out a little more.
Rieger: Right, right. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Took strangers in Historya littleSociety more. Rieger: Yeah, that's interesting though.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm. Yeah, it took a long time though that we still kind of felt likeOral we were newcomers, and I suppose people look at us now and think we're some of the old timers, and then you still kind of feel like newcomers.
i Rieger: Huh. Park Historical . I Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But, uh,
Rieger: Yeah, it's not easy to walk into a small community and then State Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But there was, you know there were people who were, kind of took us in and were friendly and came to visit us and invited us placesMinnesota and so on. And like I say the school even was one ofItasca the, one of the big things. Rieger: Is that where your children went to school?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, they did until the school closed.
Rieger: ,When-did~itclos,e,_"_L'm_not familiar. on that?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Urn, I'm trying to think too.
Rieger: Yeah.
26 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It was when our youngest daughter was in fourth grade and I think that would be 67 I believe if I'm not mistaken.
Rieger: Yeah, I was, I was thinking late sixties.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think it was about 1967 yeah.
Rieger: Okay, then they had to go, where did they go, Bagley or?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Bagley.
Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Bagley. So our youngest boy was the only one that didn't get any country school at all Rieger: Huh. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: because he was young enough so he had to start kindergarten in Bagley.
Rieger: Right, right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But otherwise theyHistory all wentSociety to country school. The older ones for eight years and then later on it got to be where it was just six years
Rieger: Mmmro-hmmm. Oral
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and then they went on into town. This is my daughter, Marilyn, thisPark is Amy. Historical Rieger: Hi.
Marilyn: Hi, Amy.
Rieger: Nice toState meet you.
Marilyn: Nice to meet you too.
Rieger: Just talkingMinnesota about the old country school. Itasca Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, we had some good times in the country school. Kind of sad when they left.
Rieger: I bet, yeah, especially if all your, the activities you know
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmrom-hmmm.
Rieger: were around there.
27 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: I imagine what Christmas parties, pageants
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: A couple of programs, you know, every year. And then this schooolhouse was used for other community activities too, you know that was kind of nice to have a place.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well you lost a community center when you lost
Mrs. Katzenm~yer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: that because Bagley school district took over then of course. The building was there and of course in order to close it out you had to get rid of it, you know what I mean. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Project Mr. Katzenmeyer: One of the fellows, well he owned the bar at the time, Seeburg bought it. There was a cement porch on the back of it that we had built, see we had to modernize it Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. HistorySociety Mr. Katzenmeyer: and have two entrances for fire protection. You know you go along and things have to be changed.
Rieger: Right. Oral
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Anyway there was some people around blowing duck ponds and stuff one spring and he hired them to come down there and blow that cement, uh l Parkporch offHistorical of there because nobody had a tractor big enough to do it at that time.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It went a little deeper than he planned. Mr. Katzenmeyer:State They had it up to open up the whole one end of the building. Rieger: Whoops!Minnesota Mr. Katzenmeyer: So he didn't have much. A neighbor up at Zerkell there Itascaor Pine Center, you know on 200 up there where you turn to go
tO I where 200 turns towards Mahnomen,
Rieger: Uh-huh.
-. 'c ~'··-Mr.-Katzenmeyer:-~~r±ght- on" the corner there, there I sa' farmer- on the right hand side, he bought it and in fact I don't think he paid anything for it.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think he just salvaged the roof and made a
28 machine shed.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Finally, I think what he did, I think he just took what was left of it and took it up there and see then he made a shop out of it. So that's where the old schoolhouse is.
Rieger: I bet that the buildings just seem to move around around here.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well that one really tried to move.
Rieger: Yeah, I guess. Just a quick question on the pageant, you said that you did get, have the opportunity to see one of the later ones.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: The one we saw, uh, I think they used to be every year. I don't know if they had more than Projectone a year or how that was, but they came, you know they had them every year.
Rieger: Right, right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And that kind of come to a stop about the time we came. But then it was, uh, I'm not sure just when, I suppose the very late forties, then they one summerHistory theySociety decided they were going to have one again. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Oral Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Alvin's grandpa was up here at the time, he was not a settler from here, but he was one of the old fellows that were kind of honored that day, but they, uh, and I don't know if it was quite like the originalPark ones, Historical but it was
Rieger: Were there a lot of people there? Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State Quite a few, yeah. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Oh yeah, there was a lot of people. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Yeah. Because of course I suppose all the people Itascathat had seen the original ones came to see what Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: what else they had done. And it was good, but like I said we didn't really see the original ones. -RIegeri -Okay . Whentbey hadtnaE' later pageant was' it like-- the' reenactment of Schoolcraft's discovery
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm, yeah, and the, uh
29 Rieger: Did they have any of the fighting that, you know, that had mock battles and the original ones
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Not real, not really big, I guess one thing that sticks in my mind was when they came in with the canoes, you know, from the lake, and the priests and so on with their, with their robes and meeting the indians and they had a couple of teepees setup, and, um, I don't think it was quite on the scale as of the original ones. I don't knm" because I didn't see them.
Rieger: It sounds like they were just incredible, you know the ones that they had for awhile there.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: And you'd get thousands and thousands of people come. I just can't imagine that many people. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, yeah, I think those originals ones were pretty, a big, pretty big production.
Rieger: Hmmm. It would have been interesting to see. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, well we missedHistory that.Society Rieger: That's neat that you got to see one of the later ones [not understandable] . Oral Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, it was kind of neat that his grandpa was able to be here, and I think he kind of enjoyed it too. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, he was anHistorical old settler in southern Minnesota so. Park
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. Rieger: Okay. StateWhereabouts in southern Minnesota? Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well south central in Hector. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Right in Hector, Hector area too. Rieger:Itasca Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Renville County.
Rieger: lIm from·southeastern Minnesota so.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: And we all end up up here. I wonder why that is. There's no trees down there. Let's talk a little bit maybe about just some
30 of the other maybe local residents and that when you were first coming up here and that you've met. You've talked about some of the resort o'V'mers, but then there was Bert Pfeifer, who owns a resort up here.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm. He's still around.
Rieger: He's still around. Yeah, I'm talking to him tomorrow again.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I'm sure he's got a lot of, I think he knew a lot about the Wegmanns.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm, yeah
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well he was a relation to [not understandable] .
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think he kind of grew up here.Project I was related or something, but he worked there so he kno'V'J's a lot about that part. And I'm sure he knows a lot about the park because he's lived here for so long. Urn, Alvin mentioned the Korths. We met them shortly after we came here,I guess. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Oh, I had met them whenHistory I wasSociety up here before when we went fishing because they used to net minnows right in the river. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: That's right.Oral He sold minnows didn't he. Mr. Katzenmeyer: You know right there where the culvert is now. Where the [road crosses to the headwaters ?]. That land along there and north a littlePark ways wasHistorical their's you know. Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And they had minnows for sale and we used to go there to get ourState minnows. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota I had forgotten that. Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca What?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I said I had forgotten that. I remember you used to get your minnows there.
Mr,;- Katzenmeyer: I had met them before I ever lived up here.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I can remember Mrs. Korth being at some women's 31 gathering one time, and she was telling about in the early days when they lived in a cabin and he was gone somewhere and she had to go out and chase wolves away because they were after their whatever livestock they had. Some of these ladies were a little taken aback because I mean that was kind of out of the ordinary.
Rieger: Yeah, wow, scary.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: Chase wolves around, geez.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Now we're getting them back.
Rieger: Yeah, I heard at the beginning of the summer that there were a couple of wolves somewhere up in the park and
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, they've been seen Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There's more than a couple.
Rieger: Really?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There's a lot. It'sHistory about theSociety same thing as your bear population right now. They think there's a few bear around, there is. There's an over population.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Kind of likeOral mice for everyone you see there's a hundred others. Rieger: Right. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeye: For years we lived up here and never saw a bear, that's how, and there was bear here then. That's how reclusive they are, and now you see bear all the time so you know there's got to be a lot of Statethem. Rieger: Really.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I've been here for year and years before I ever saw a bear in theMinnesota wild. Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Now you see them every year, three, four, five.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
·Mr. Katzenmeyer:Sometimes more than that.
Rieger: Yeah, I saw it earlier in the summer, the mamma bear and her three little baby ones that are in the park, and I was talking to someone else, Lorraine Qualley over in Lake George and she said a bear had broke into her garage.
32 Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: And she actually went outside and then it sort of came out, she went into the house.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: She went back in.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There was an article ~n the Park Rapids or the Bagley paper here about two weeks ago where a farmer up by Leonard, a retired guy, and had his garage broken into three times, three different bear.
Rieger: Hmmm. Yeah, in the news the other night, they were talking about how they're coming into Duluth now. They always do it during the summer, but. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: At least they aren't polar bearsProject like they have up in Alaska.
Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I saw in the Park Rapids paper yesterday where some farmer down by Perham, they had to go, the animal control people from Grand Rapids, had to go downHistory thereSociety and kill a bunch of timberwolves, a family, because they killed some of his cattle. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: And that's way down at Perham, Minnesota.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think that was, they, he knew this. The den was there and he had just,Park they wereHistorical just coexisting, but then they started in on his livestock.
Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Then they started to kill his cattle, and he couldn't stand it anymore.
Rieger: Uh-huh. My great uncle had to deal with that. Urn, he lives up in northern,Minnesota by Dora Lake up in, by Northhome up there. They'veItasca had to deal with that up there too so. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, well that's what's going to happen here because there's a lot of beef cattle and calves are small in the spring. Some people calve on pasture, and it's going to create a p~()biem here too. It's someth~~g.walt.ing to happen. .
Rieger: Right.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Because we've got the wolves here. There's no question about it. It's just that they got to learn that's easier
33 to, an easier prey than deer
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: you know, and then you'll have problems.
Rieger: Yeah, it's too bad. Uh, let's, now you have worked in the park for a number of years, is that correct?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm, 27.
Rieger: 27 y'ears. Maybe let's talk a little bit about that. When you started working in the park and some of the things that you did and.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, when I first started working in the park, I went to work on Brower Inn, to help build that. That's the first project, that was 1957. And when that was done,Project I just stayed on and worked maintenance.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Done whatever for the first about 10, 12 years I worked with the carpenter foreman becauseHistory I hadSociety started with him on Brower Inn, Carl Johnson. Rieger: Carl Johnson. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: And then later on I just worked general work. I done a lot of sign work, more or less of a trouble shooter, you know what I mean, I'd been there long enough I knew everything and somedays I'd be doing one thing,Historical somedays it was something else, you know what I mean. I'dPark done whatever was necessary. I knew the park well enough so that I could that. And in the last few years, I done quite a, trucking between parks hauling stuff back and forth and over to Grand Rapids whenever they had a load of stuff they weren't going toState use anymore they had a sale once a year at Grand Rapids at the Forestry station over there, and I hauled a lot of stuff over there. And went between parks if there was something here that had to be delivered to a park I'd go down and deliver that and probablyMinnesota pick something up and take it to another park and then comeItasca back here and you know things like that. Rieger: Uh, when did you do some of the logging of the dead and downed timber? Was that before Brower Inn or after that or when you worked with [not understandable] that before?
Mr.,' Ka tzenmeyer :'" Well , yeah, that ". I done ' that. oh I don' t know just exactly when I started with Hemerick on that. I was working for him for many, many years, and I did that usually in my when I wasn't working at the park because I didn't work there steady, you know it was seasonal more or less. We would start in November
34 after deer season and would haul these out of the park before the break up in the spring, you know in :March. Because they didn't want it torn up in there, you know. We were always out of there then, and then they sawed the lumber after the road break up, you know posting was over so that they could haul the lumber. And then I always fed the edger at the mill for many, many, many years.
Rieger: Well you were basically involved in the whole process then. Going out to the woods and
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I went out in the wintertime and cut the logs or helped cut them, and sometimes skidded them, depended on who was helping him and so on and so forth, and how much help they had. [Forgot to mention - the first years all the skidding was done with horses. It never got too cold for the men, but did for the horses! Later :Mr. H. used a "cat". Those were the days of lukewarm coffee in the thermos and frozen sandwichesProject thawed over a little fire.]
Rieger: How many people usually worked [not understandable]?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Not too many because it was a scattered situation, you know, it didn't warrant numbers because you had to, Mr. Hemerick done the exploring for Historythe trees,Society you know what I mean. He spent the biggest share of his time doing that and then hauling the logs out after we cut them, see. And he would find them and mark them and tell them, tell us where they were, and they we would go, a lot of times you'dOral go quarter of a mile between trees you know, sometimes a half a mile to find the dead tree, and he just canvassed the area you were in and that was his job was to find the trees and keep us busy. And then we cut and skidded it and he hauled it home toPark the mill, Historical and then
Rieger: How did you get involved in having that job? Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Well, I was looking for work and Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And he was looking for Mr. Katzenmeyer: Minnesotaand he was looking for help, Rieger:Itasca Right. Good timing all around. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
~:r:.Katzenmeyer: The first day I went to work for him he asked me if I could feed [the edger] and measure and I said I never had. Well he said you'll never learn any younger and that's the way it· was.
Rieger: Really.
35 Mr. Katzenmeyer: That's the way it went.
Rieger: Huh. On the job.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: On the job training.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: On the job training,
Mr. Katzenmeyer: That was over in 1967, I think that's the last time.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I was going to say it must have been late fifties or early sixties when you started that.
Rieger: Just on the logging subject, urn, do you remember any stories in, stories on, uh, in the area about when there was logging and what the local population thought about that. That's something Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Do you mean at that time?
Rieger: Right. You know the sort of hey day of logging or when they had the you know just going in andHistory cuttingSociety down and Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well a lot of the people that were here that was their living when they started, you know, I mean that's what was here. Oral Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They took what there was. There was no clearing or anything. They had Parkto clear Historical before they could farm. Rieger: Right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But I suppose it was a big logging company that you're thinkingState about. Mr. Katzenmeyer: [not understandable] so they didn't see anything wrong with it, you know what I mean. Minnesota Mrs. Katzenmeyer: They probably didn't like it when the big loggingItasca companies came in though. Of course, I suppose they had work out of it.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They got work out of it, sure.
Rieger: . How about the-damming of Lake Itasca? -When the dam and then, I mean that's going way back.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: That's way back.
36 Mr. Katzenmeyer: That's going way back. Anything I could tell you about that would be hearsay, you know what I've heard and I don't [not understandable] .
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't remember ever hearing much about it.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: What?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't remember ever hearing any much about it, I suppose you probably did.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well I heard them talk about it, Mrs. Traun talked about it you know, but she had an idea about it you know because he dad was the dam tender, why you know you knew what side she was on, and I heard others that were like Ben or somebody like that would be there on the side, you know what I mean. Project Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: So actually for actual experience I can't say, you know it's just hearsay. Rieger: But you did hear things aboutHistory it? Society Mr. Katzenmeyer: Oh, yes, yes, I heard about it. Rieger: Even that far removed Oralfrom it. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. Rieger: Okay. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I was a real good friend with Mrs. Traun, associated with her for many, many years. She was on the school board with me. On the school board she was very active and very good, very good, things like that. You know you get together and then you start Statetalking about things like that and come up and she had pictures she used to show. Rieger: Did sheMinnesota really? . Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca You would have been interested in talkin to her because she would have
Mr. Katzenmeyer: She would have been an awfully good one to talk to
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: if she would have been alive.
Rieger: Yeah.
37 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: She knew a lot of things and she uh
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But she had the kind of a mind she
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: she recorded all that, you know.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Some people have it and some don't.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And she was able to, able to get her
Rieger: Yeah, it's too bad. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: let you understand what she Projectmeant too. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. But that's been sort of a case in a lot of instances, people say oh if you only would have started this thing a couple of years back whatever you still could have talked to so and so and so and so. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But it wasn't historyHistory then.Society Rieger: Yeah, you know, and even if it was people there wasn't a [not understandable] did or people weren't interested in the time so. Well how did you become Oralinvovled in the work in Brower Inn then?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well they had, they wanted to build that building down there, the state did, decidedHistorical to built it, and they let it on contract, and their ownPark engineers told them that they could built it cheaper themselves than what the contractors did so they decided to build it and that's when I got a job, see. Then they put on extra help. State Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And then when that was done, what, it ended up being a considerableMinnesota bigger job than they thought and it cost them considerable more than they thought because their engineers were not halfItasca as smart as the contractors.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well what I remember about that was that all the piling they had to drive.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: -Well-;- yeah, you see their, their, their engineers didn't even know that.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Because it's right there on the lakeshore and it's a lot of weight.
38 Mr. Katzenmeyer: But when they got it dug out for the basement or for the foundnation they found out that they had to put down pilings so then we had to go and get a machine and drive piling and there was just a lot more to it that the contractors knew about when they bid in their bids that the engineers for the state just never, just never got, so and it took a lot longer. They had been told that they could build it for $100,000. Their engineers told them that.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And they had that kind of money, but they didn't even get a good start and that was gone and then they had to go and, you know there'd bel there was lapses between money, money Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Get more money, huh? Project Mr. Katzenmeyer: you know what I mean.
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It took probably three years to build it when one and one and a half years should have doneHistory it, Societyyou know what I mean. And, uh
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: One thing I remember about when that was built was that a lot of people, you know it was a beautiful building, but a lot of people thought it Oralwasn't compatible with the other buildings Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: that it should have been more of the log, you know, Rieger: Right. State Mrs. Katzenmeyer: not so much stone and glass. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.Minnesota Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca I still think that's true. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It should have been
Rieger: You think that's true as well?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I'm thirikingit's true, and not only that it was a very elaborate building, and it was not, the man that designed the architecht got an award for it, but it had been nothing but a headache for the state because, sure it was beautiful when it was done, but it just doesn't stand the northern winters, part of it
39 was flat roofed, and that doesn't go up here, you know. I don't know how many times they've had to repair that roof, the flat part of it. The beams, those great big beams up in the roof and stuff, they stuck out beyond the building. Now they've had to cut them all off because you couldn't keep them from weathering, you know, I mean they were rotting. When they once start to rot, they rotted the roof edge and then they rot in, you see.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And so you know it was just a, for this area and this climate, it was just not, it was a
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. It seems like it's been used for so many things, but nothing lasts very long. And it's a very hot building, you know when the sun comes. Project Mr. Katzenmeyer: [not understandable] you know, they started out with a little restuarant in the bottom and the souvenir part upstairs, you know, and it's just been
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But it's been changed so many times
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. HistorySociety
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and it just seems like it isn't being used
Rieger: No. Oral
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: like it should be.
Rieger: No, now they Parkonly use Historical it well if it's raining for the programs.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I mean that's really a shame.
Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Yeah, it's really kind of stupid. It's a building that
[End side two, tape 1] [Begin sideMinnesota one, tape 2] Itasca Mr. Katzenmeyer: huge building and when you get in there and get looking at it, it's not that big
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: you know, on the inside.
Rieger: It took a whole lot of work.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Oh, it did. A lot of heavy work.
40 Rieger: Can you comment on any of the other projects that you worked on that went well that you didn't think would or that didn't went well, go well or, urn
Mr. Katzenmeyer: No, not really. Most of the rest of the work [not understandable] down there they, that was the only major building that was done while I was working there. The rest was just maintenance, you know, on buildings.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I suppose the biggest
Mr. Katzenmeyer: While I was with the carpenter crew and then after that I worked on signs and things like that and Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Anything other major usually Projectwas contracted out after that, wasn't it? Like Douglas Lodge restoration all that kind of stuff.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, they started contracting after that so I didn't have much to do with that.
Rieger: Let's talk a little bit with Historysome ofSociety the people you maybe worked with, urn, starting with maybe the park managers. You talked a little bit before about Andie Peterson and he was maybe one of the ones that there was some problems with his time there and the local residents and Oral
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, Andie was the last of the political appointees. He was republican by you know affiliation with politics and had been appointedPark Historicalby that and then while he was there they changed their policy and as a result he stayed, you know. That had no former, urn, he was just a political appointee, he had no former affiliation with the parks or park systems or anything else. And as a result, I never felt that, that it was fair to the parks, you knowState what I mean.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. I understand that he liked to fish, though.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: MinnesotaAnd he didn't get along, he didn't get along good with theItasca locals, local public either. He hired everybody from away if he could and didn't use the stores or anything here, he always went to town to buy his stuff. He didn't trade with any of the local people or anything.
Rieger: And that caused some resentment?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It caused a lot of resentment.
Rieger: How about Waino Kontola?
41 Mr. Katzenmeyer: Wayne was a good manager, as far as I was concerned. He treated me very fair and I liked Wayne, and I think he done a lot for the park. It was him that salvaged the pioneer cemetery, brought it back again, and I think he was good. I think the people, you know, started, he traded locally, and people started to like him and I think that was when they [not understandable] kind of turned around and the local people started, he hired locally when he could.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. So you think he was a good park manager?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: He was a nice man, a good manager as far as I was concerned, real good.
Rieger: Was he a nice guy?
Mr. Katzenrneyer: Yes, he was. I saw him when they had their centennial, he and his wife came for that. Met Projecthim, talked to him again for awhile, they were very, very friendly people.
Rieger: Did you work at all then with John Herhusky?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I must have worked there for ten years or so, and 9, 10 years after JohnHistory come.Society He was a very good manager as far as finances and running the park was concerned, I think probably as good as any they ever had there. Uh, he was a li ttle harder for the crew to get along with at times. Maybe because of his Army backgroundOral or his service background. Sometimes doesn't work out very good in public because it's a take order sort of a deal, you know, I mean you don't question the orders you get, Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: you know when you're ln the service you do whatever they tell you to do, and I think he became disgusted, I don't know what word you would use, at some of the things he was asked to do. ButState because of his training he went ahead and done it anyway, but then he took it out on the Rieger: Okay, Minnesotauh-huh. Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca on the people that worked for him. Rieger: Okay. Yeah, I've heard that, urn, he had a tendency to take a lot, a lot of things personally, that weren't meant
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, yes he did.
Rieger: Urn, particularly what the strike that they had over there.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
42 Rieger: I've heard that was pretty, a bitter fight I guess.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. Well then it was the same, we had that land acquisition deal and we run into that a little bit there, you know here in the last seventies, why somebody decided they wanted to move the park boundaries all out to the highway, and all the way along. Tacked it to a bill in the legislature late in the session when it was something that was going to be passed anyway, and Ed informed the people that is was all state and federal land, or you know I mean state and county land, that there was no private land or very little involved with it, which was not true because about half of the land involved was private land.
Rieger: Hrrrrnm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And what they were going to do is just condemn it and take it just like they would for a highwayProject or REA line, you know service line whatever.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And it didn't work out. And John was there at that time. And because some of us were working down there and our land was involved with the deal, itHistory was realSociety iffy for awhile because the minute you said anything about the park, he was up in the air. We were not referring to the park here as is, we were referring to management over him that was causing this problem you know, and he took it all personally.Oral
Rieger: Hrrrrnm. Mr. Katzenmeyer: And itPark was, weHistorical had a quite a time keeping peace. Rieger: Yeah, I can imagine it must have been a little tense for awhile. Mr. Katzenmeyer:State And you know you have people that don't think before they speak, you know, and we had one lady especially that I threatened to develop a muzzle for her. She got us into several scrapes. Minnesota Rieger: Hrrrrnm. While you were at the park, urn, working there, can you describeItasca maybe some of the development that you saw from inside, urn, whether it was park facilities, roads, any changes good and bad that you noticed while you were there working?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, one of the changes that I saw was made just about the time I retired and was ready to quit was that all of a sudden they became concerned about some of the old buildings. Before that maintenance was low on the totem pole. They'd buy the cheapest paint they could buy, everything was let on bids, you know what I mean.
43 Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenrneyer: You went and done all that work and when you got done you couldn't tell you'd done it because the paint faded as fast as you put it on, you know. And it was discouraging.
Rieger: Mmrom-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenrneyer: And very discouraging. And a lot of the buildings they just let deteriorate because they said it was cheaper to build new than i,t was to keep for upkeep. That was their philosophy. As a result, a lot of the old buildings have gotten in bad repair because of that. And they should have been repaired and kept up because there'll never be buildings like them again. Rieger: Right, and I've heard that before and Projecttalked about it a little bit at the preliminary interview, and urn, even Nicollet Cabin I guess could have been salvaged.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, yes it could have. Different ones like that.
Rieger: Right. HistorySociety
Mr. Katzenrneyer: That big inn across, well that's even [not understandable] here lately. But that big inn, Heinzelman's inn, was a landmark, you know, in theOral community here. And the home that Elva Traun was born in down there and that was just a little country farmhouse, you know what I mean [this was the John Korth place mentioned before]Park Historical Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: but it was in good repair. Rieger: Mmrom-hmmm.State Mr. Katzenrneyer: And it was the first white settler on the Mississippi River and it should have been, I always felt it should have been preservedMinnesota and it would have cost very little to have preserved it, you know, because they could have had a little exhibitItasca in there, they could have had old furniture and things in there and
Rieger: Right.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: people go and look at it, and as a result it would be used and would be open and would be dry, you know what I mean.
Rieger: Right.
44 Mr. Katzenmeyer: And it could have been preserved forever, you know, but instead of that they just bulldozed it down and covered it up, and that was the end of it, you know.
Rieger: Did you ever suggest doing that to anyone?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It wouldn't have done any good if I had, I had learned that long ago
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I'm sure
Rieger: You were going
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I had learned that long before that it didn't do any good to say anything'. Rieger: Okay. Project Mr. Katzenmeyer: Because the local, any local input was not, it was not considered, you know.
Rieger: Hmmm. That's too bad.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I think, I think it'sHistory gottenSociety better. I think, I think after that land deal they found out that some of the people here that were working for them were not as dumb as they thought they were, you know that they Oralhad a little something on the ball. Rieger: Right. Mr. Katzenmeyer: You knowPark what Historical I mean. Rieger: Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I think they got a little more respect for us.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.State That's good.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Maybe they got to thinking that maybe we did know what we were talkingMinnesota about. Rieger:Itasca Oh, yeah. It only makes sense, but I mean I'm sort of on the edge here and outside it too so, but it makes sense to me to hire local people.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But that was the first they've ever been made to back up and I think that, I think that really sent a message to them. I think they realized then that hey maybe they're not as dumb up there as we think they are, you know what I mean.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Right. Hmmm. Did you have much, excuse me, did you have much contact with any of the visitors while you were
45 working or?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, yeah, because you constantly worked with people like that, you know, you have the good, good memories and the bad memories, you know. It's probably 5%, 7% of the people that you work with that you come in contact with that cause all your problems, the rest of the people are just common people and are curious and if they do something wrong they want to know why, you know what I mean, and no problem even if they done something wrong, if you talk to them, and talk them in the right way there was no hard feelings, but then you got another few people that
Rieger: Always a few bad apples.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There "s always bad apples in the barrel, you know.
Rieger: Did you witness or see any changes in visiProject tor expectations while you were there? What they expected when they came to the park or a general change in the clientele in general.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well I think the only thing that I noticed was that the later years that I worked there then you were starting to run into your environmentalists and generallyHistorySociety the groups that, uh, people that were involved with the things like that and the same as it is today. Probably only a few, a small percentage of them really know what they're talking about. You know, I mean they've listened to somebody else, andOral they really, uh, there has to be environmentalists, don't get me wrong, and I believe in that too because I've always been on that side of the fence, but you have to have some common sense that goes along with it. You know, I mean, uh, you can't just go inPark and just Historical cut everything off and one of the things that bothers me a lot is the reforestration of the park, and I've harped about until I give up. I just Rieger: Can youState describe, I mean can you expand on that? Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, for the last fifty years they've had committees or groups or oh I don't know what you call them Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Task forces whatever. Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca You know that they had that were going to study this and do something about it because they know that that pine are dying all the time. Their dying faster every year, and they haven't accomplished a thing because whenever the state does something like that they have to have every class of, everybody has to be represented. And when that happens, they don't accomplish anything because when they call a meeting, it ends up in a free for all. One comes in and says well I think we should go in there and cut a bunch of that timber and salvage it and get something out of it and use that to reforest the rest of the park, and somebody else
46 blows his stack and says no they're not going to cut one stick, we're not going to touch that part, see what I mean?
Rieger: l-1mmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They end up with a fight, and they don't accomplish a thing. And I think it's time to make a decision one way or the other. If they're going to leave it go and never do anything to it, let it become whatever it comes in the next generation, let's make that decision then and quit fighting about it. If they',re going to reforest it, if they want pine in there in the future, then they're going to have to do something about it.
Rieger: }1mmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Because pine will not come back unless it's helped. The old, hot fires, uncontrolled fires, is what brought the pine in there in the first place. Because everythingProject else was killed, and it had a chance to sprout and grow. But you can't do that anymore. See what happened out in Yellowstone a few years ago. And with people settled around here like it is now, you can't let a fire get that hot because if you do, you lose control of it, and the whole country would burn up. HistoryYou knowSociety what I mean. Rieger: }1mmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: So then you have to do the next best thing. You have to go in there and harvestOral it, work the ground up, seed it, maybe keep it sprayed for a couple of years until the pine gets started. Well, if that's what they're going to do, then let's get at it. It's a renewable source. There's 600,000 cords of over aged popple in the parkPark alone. HistoricalThat's worth probably 8, 9 dollars a cord right now. And it's going down every year.
Rieger: }1mmm-hmmm. Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Going to waste. If they would go in there, you know, they don't have to do it right out next to the roads where people see it, there's 35, over 30,000 acres in that park. And they can do thisMinnesota in an interior part. You know what I mean. Rieger:Itasca Oh, yeah. Mr. Katzenmeyer: And it doesn't have to be all pine. I don't think it should be. I think where there are pine, maybe it would be nice if pine was there again, but where the popple is, if they cut if off, it will come again itself. It will be popple again in the future.
Rieger: Yeah, you don't realize really until you're close to the park Whatever, how much it takes to run a park and keep everything going and you know [not understandable] go visit them.
47 Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, it's, it's
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It's a lot more complicated than it used to be.
Rieger: Yeah. It really is.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: The sad part of it is they've got Forestry people that are in the same organization as the park is, they're all DNR. They've got qualified people that could go in there and manage that. Then why don't they let them manage it. See that's the part that bugs me.,
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Uh, l' think it's some 20 years ago, I don't remember just exactly, I'm not good on dates, but when they had all the big hassle over that wilderness area that they've got in the park, that 3,000 acres. Project
Rieger: Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There was some bitter meetings over that too. And it was a formal type deal, handled through the legislature, federal and state both. You had to writeHistory a resume,Society you had to have it all ready, you had to get up and read it, you know what I mean. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: It's all according to the book, you know, none of the local people here had any experience with that. They didn't know anything. They weren't even allowed to speak until the last meeting the representativePark fromHistorical our area got up and really chastized them, and he told them, he said you got a lot of local people that should have something to say about that. And they had had people from way back in New Jersey, New York, allover come here and talk about this see. Our main concern was not the 3,000 acres they wereState getting to experiment with, to leave as a wilderness area, that, we could have cared less. Our concern was that they didn't want any roads, they didn't want any infraction of any kind, anything done within that 3,000 acres. Well then if a fire starts in there,Minnesota you've got no roads, no way to get in there and control it, the 3,000 acres could end up causing the loss of all theItasca rest of the park. That was our concern.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: When the last night, when they finally gave us a chance to talk, we found that out. Then everything was lovely. They understood that. That was fine. They only wanted that 3,000 acres, and they would take care of that, and we would be allowed to run the rest of the park. [Clap of hands] Bang! They no more than got the names on the signature, you know and got it all taken
48 care of, they stepped right in and all of a sudden it became an environmental park. You couldn't do anything. See that's when the logging and everything else stopped too. I mean and all it was was salvage, we weren't cutting a green tree
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: unless it had blown down. I mean, you know.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Politics.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It's just politics, yeah. And that's what's happened on all their committees and it's all these years, for 50 years they've been having these things, and they haven't accomplished a thing. They're fast running out of time, you know what I mean, and it is really stupid. They should make up their mind one way or the other. Decide what they're going to do and then put it to rest. Instead of that they appointProject a new committee, and they'll fiddle with it for 10 years and if that don't work, they'll appoint a new one.
Rieger: Hmmm. Interesting.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They aren't accomplishingHistory a Societything. And Ben would be one, he'd be, he'd be hanging up there with his head through the ceiling, you know, because he's one of them that you can't talk to about that. He's the one that's very emphatic about touching one stick in there, you know. Oral
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Yeah, I've gotten that impression. Mr. Katzenmeyer: What?Park Historical Rieger: I've gotten that impression I think from him. Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Yeah. Rieger: Hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And Ben and I are good friends, but we've argued it many times. MinnesotaIn fact, it could come to blows, but we stay friends,Itasca you know what I mean. Rieger: Well that's good, that's good that you can do that.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: You know, Ben is that way, and I'm that way, I'll say what I have to think and he does to, and then we never let it affect our friendship, you know, because we've been good friends.
Rieger: Yeah, that's good that you can, you know, realize that people have different opinions and
49 Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well that's what makes the world go round.
Rieger: Right, right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well that is his firm opinion and you have to respect him for it.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, like I say I guess my feeling is that if they want pine in the park in the future and I think there should be because that's what made it famous is the big pine and stuff, that the time is fast, they're already a hundred years behind the time. Have you been around the Wilderness Drive?
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: You know where that plantationProject was planted out there, there's a drive, you know you can drive off the side there
Rieger: Oh, right.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: and see it, you know where the CC [not understandable] HistorySociety
Rieger: Yeah, where the CCC one, yeah, yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: this is 1937?Oral Well figure it out for yourself how old those trees are and then compare them to the big trees. See that's how far behind the times they are. Those were planted in 1937. Park Historical Rieger: Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: So it's time, it's time to make a move, you know what I mean. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go in there and cut a big tree,State that's great, but I do believe in salvaging what's there. In the first place, a tree is like a human being, some kind of a disease kills them in the end, something quits or you know what I, they becomeMinnesota weaker. Rieger:Itasca Mmmm-hmmm. Mr. Katzenmeyer: You go in there and look now, you'll find 10, 15, 20 trees in a bunch that are all dead. Had those trees been taken out/ as soon as they died, a lot of those other trees would still be alive today.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzemeyer: Whatever that killed the one, moved to the next one when that one was dead. See what I mean?
50 Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And that's something you can't tell these people either, you know.
Rieger: Hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: That never happened. We never found over one or two trees in a place when we were logging. Most of the time just one tree
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: we would find. Now you can go in there and find 25 in a little area you Know. Rieger: That's too bad. Hmmm. \lIJell interestingProject these are interesting observations and very thoughtful ones as well. Hmmm. They're kind of block minded aren't they?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm. Mr. Katzenmeyer: If you harp about it, if you harp about it and you don't get anywhere why you just kindHistory of Societygive up after while. I've gotten, the last few advisory board meetings and it's been brought up, I haven't even said anything because I just
Rieger: Well it's frustrating,Oral I imagine, you know.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It's so frustrating. They know how I feel about it, but Park Historical Rieger: Hmmm. Well let's back up a little bit I guess. And we talked about you working in the park and everything and, uh, now were you farming as well, at the same time?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: Okay, okay. Now you were here obviously, urn, helping out here, you know Minnesota Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Yeah. Rieger: with kids and working on the farm and I imagine that that you know through Mr. Katzenmeyer you had contact with the park and everything.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I never worked [in the park]. I'm one of the few people that's, people in the country, that didn't ever work in the park.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. 51 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: We have quite a bit of family who still are working in the park
Rieger: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and have over the years, but I never ever worked in the park. I worked at the, urn, McDonald's Store, even Oanes' before that I worked in the store down there.
Rieger: Now what did you do there?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Just, uh, it's summer time help, you know.
Rieger: Clerking.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It's clerking and helped with lunches and things like that. Project Rieger: How did you like that?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I enjoyed it. Rieger: Did you? HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Maybe it was just because I got away from home for awhile. It was different.
Rieger: Right, right, you needOral a little break.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, and it was just summer time. Rieger: Mmrom-hmmm. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And I guess I helped at the resort some too with laundry and cleaned cabins and that kind of stuff. Nothing too, nothing that took too much brain power. And then I did a few other little things. StateI drove school bus
Rieger: Huh. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota at the country school,
Rieger:Itasca Uh-huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: which was my car. But it involved getting a school bus license, I was licensed to drive a great big orange bus if I had wanted to.
Rieger: Oh, really.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But, and I drove that until the school quit.
52 Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And then In 1968 I started working at the post office.
Rieger: That's when you started. Now how did you become involved
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, Bob Sauer was the postmaster and his wife had been kind of being his assistant and replacement and that kind of thing, and they changed some regulations and she couldn't do that anymore.
Rieger: Hmmm.
Mrs'. Katzenmeyer: So he. 'was looking for somebody and he came over one evening and asked if I'd be interested, and this was completely out of the blue. Project Rieger: Really.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Because I had no, I had no thoughts of a postal career at all.
Rieger: Uh-huh. HistorySociety
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It hadn't even entered my mind because Bob was postmaster, had been forever, and probably would be forever. But anyhow then I worked there forOral four years as a clerk and, uh, replacement and, uh, when he retired in 1972 then, in the spring, why then I was in charge during the summer and then in September I was appointed postmaster. Park Historical Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And I was there until I retired last fall. Rieger: Huh. StateDid you have to take like a civil service exam or anything or? Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota No, I didn't at that time. Urn, Rieger:Itasca Okay. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: it was just the way it was at that time, and those regulations change from time to time so, urn, at that time I didn't because I just, urn, at first I just worked when he was gone or to fill in a few times during the, during the summer, urn, I had a couple of hours a day everyday during the summer, and then when he was gone and for that you didn't need to take the test. Well then by the time I became postmaster that I had been working there for that amount of time and it just wasn't necessary. I really didn't ever have to take a test.
53 Rieger: Well, that's nice. [Phone rang. Stop tape.]
Rieger: Let's just continue on with, with some of your postal work. Can you describe, I mean I've never worked I don't have any idea really what a postmaster does or what it would entail especially you know this is sort of a different situation too
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, it is. Because
Rieger: than a city.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, completely different because a postmaster in a city is basically a manager and has people under him who do the sell the stamps, and'weigh the packages and sort mail and all that sort of stuff. And I've talked to postmasters from bigger places who really don't know a lot of the things that I had to know because I was the only one there. Project
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: You either have to know or look it up.
Rieger: Right. Just you, you didn'tHistory have anySociety help
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well no.
Rieger: at all or? Oral
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, no, not, just someone to replace me Rieger: Okay. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: if I was gone, Rieger: Right, Stateright. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: which it was a small office Rieger: Uh-huh.Minnesota Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca you didn't need any, any more people. Rieger: Okay. Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But you get a stack of manuals and you know theoretically you can find anything in those.
Rieger: Right. Theoretically.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. I don't know who they were written by, but, but anyhow that's, it's, you know it's, it's kind of
54 interesting in a small office because you do get kind of a little of everything, and you kind of have to learn to punt sometimes.
Rieger: Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And, uh, I guess here it was probably different than a lot of places because uh it was such an interesting variety of people, especially in the summer time
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: because, uh, well the tourists obviously, but then the university you know has a station, of course there were people there from everywhere, and so, and they did, usually brought stuff up there you know if they had anything unusual to mail. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: So I mean you might have a registered for tirnbuktu or someplace, you know. You just didn't know what was coming. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But it was just neat to talk to them. Rieger: Oh, yeah. I bet you metOral some interesting people. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Because then you, you start, yeah, you start visiting and you find out all kinds of
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: interesting things. We had a, a group come into the store here a number of years ago and I guess, I suppose they used the post office too, basically they came into the store. But they were from Australia,State and they were biking. It was quite a few people that bike across country, and a lot of times, this is one of their stops.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.Minnesota
Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca But this group was biking across the country, and, and we had fun visit with them you know.
Rieger: Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: They left and so on, and about I don't know a month later I got a letter from somebody in Australia and she had picked up a paper, a newspaper, and there was a column in there and it was about the store and post office.
55 Rieger: Really! Oh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And, uh, it was, I, I still got it. It really was a neat, and she, it told about of course the store too,
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: but, urn, and the park, and the post office, and the mosquitoes,
Rieger: Oh ..
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and all the different stuff.
Rieger: Oh, that is really neat. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And so she had clipped it out,Project and she had I guess she just mailed it Postmaster, Lake Itasca because that's the only name or addres she had, but it got here.
Rieger: Uh-huh, and it got there. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. So it HistorySociety Rieger: Isn't that something?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, so um the person that I'd never seen sent this column. Oral
Rieger: That is neat. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah,Park and thenHistorical every so often somebody starts down the river with a canoe, you know, and a lot of times those people would stop in and get maybe the postmark. Rieger: Mromm-hmmm.State Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Quite a few postmark and stamp collectors would come in, um, we had two special cancellations when we had post office for a day in the park. One was when the it was the 150th anniversary of Minnesotathe discovery of the headwaters and then, uh, in 1991 itItasca was the centennial of the park. Rieger: Mromm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And both times I set up post office in the park
Rieger: Right in the park?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: for that, for that day. Yeah, down by the, well the last one was in the souvenir building, you know at the headwaters, and the one before we had it in that little kiosk out
56 in front that little orange venetian place [the souvenir building]
Rieger: Okay, uh-huh. But you were in charge of all of that?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, and we sold stamps and cancelled things. This centennial was, was by the far, you know bigger than the uh other one. Uhf got a lot of stuff by mail. Had requests from 47 states and quite a number of foreign countries
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and people would mail in their stuff to get the cancellation and I would send it back to them.
Rieger: Uh-huh. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Developed a good, strong rightProject arm because uh um Rieger: What was a typical day like for you?
[End side one, tape 2] [Begin side two, tape 2]
Discussed during tape change: [OpenHistory up, putSociety up flag, bookwork, cleaning, take care of customers as they came.]
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: [In winter] time I, uhf sad to say spent a lot of time knitting and reading,Oral and you know, had to be there, but Rieger: Right. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: urn, you can only sweep the floor so many times
Rieger: Uh-huh, and you make up for it in the summer though.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State Yeah, but in the summer it was, it was pretty busy. Rieger: What timeMinnesota do you, did you usually Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Um, the last years it was 8:30 and I was through by 4:00.
Rieger: Mmrom-hrnmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And, uhf so it was a nice day, a lot of things you can get done after 4 o'clock in the afternoon when you get home too. Rieger: Oh , yeah.
57 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I came home at lunch time for a little while, but I don't know, the first thing you know open the safe, put up the flag, that kind of stuff, do the books.
Rieger: Mromm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And, urn, our mail didn't come in until shortly before noon so it wasn't, except for people that came in to mail, there wasn't a lot in the morning and then the mail would come in, we'd sort, and the afternoon was just whatever came in.
Rieger: Mmmffi-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But, uh, like I said it wasn't a real high stress or Rieger: Well that's good, that's good. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And I always, and I was enjoyed going to work because it was, well every day was a little different, and like I said I met so many people and a lot of them came year after year and they got to be really close personal friends.
Rieger: Mromm-hmmm. Yeah, I was talkingHistory to Societysome visitors in the campgrounds that have been here for well forty years Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. Oral Rieger: they've been coming, thirty years, urn, some people that have been coming to Bert's Cabins for Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.Park Historical Rieger: thirty-five years and
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. State Rieger: it really, I think that's really special
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm. Minnesota Rieger:Itasca that people do that, urn Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm, yeah it is.
Rieger: you know because that, you know especially when you have a family, that's a lot of work to
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: I mean, I don't, I've been just imagining because I'm single and no kids, but to get the kids ready and everything and
58 ., '" ' .. : ~'• .'. : ....'> '
pack up and go camping for ever how long.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh yeah, we're not really, uh, into camping, and I guess when you see these families come with even babies and little tiny kids, and you get a week rain in a tent, you wonder why they would even think about camping, but they come back the next year.
Rieger: And they do, year after year after year.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Rieger: Wow.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah,' and that's I guess camping has, I don't think when we first came up here there were very many campers. They had a campground, I think the campground wasProject always there, but I don't think it was very much of a thing, you know to, people came up and stayed at the resorts and
Rieger: And at the Lodge.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: At the Lodge. Uh, one thing I remembered there used to be, the Greyhound Bus used to Historycome intoSociety the Lodge everyday, even after we were here for quite a few years. Rieger: Okay. Oral Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And they brought tourists and took them home. Rieger: Huh, a little Parkshuttle Historicalservice. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Some of, yeah, some of our family caught the bus there a few times and came back down to the Lodge. And they had a post office down there too.
Rieger: They did?State
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: With a Douglas Lodge postmark, and I'm not sure when that quit. It was still going when we were here, but I have no idea because MinnesotaI wasn't thinking postal very much at that time, and I Itascajust knew there was one. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Urn, was there anything else about, about your postal work that urn well stuck out in your mind, I mean stories about documents coming in or
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't know, I guess I can't think of anything really unusual. Uh, I had more unusual things when I worked at the store.
Rieger: Oh, really? Any
59 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, we had one lady that came in and uh the lady in the store had a little pot that had a little pine tree in it.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Sitting on the edge of the counter, you know, about two feet high, and it was kind of a conversation piece. And so when this lady came in she, "Oh, isn't that the cutest little thing." She said, "Did you grow that from an acorn?" And then there was a lady that came in and they had quite a lot of souvenirs, and I happened to be dusting souvenirs at the time, and she came in there and she kind of, kind of I don't know like she was afraid or something, and she looked, and she looked at me and she'd look around and look at the door and she said, "Do Indians really" it was called the Trading Post, "Do Indians really come in here and trade?" And I, she just, it was the sort of thing where you just feel like giving them a real story. Project
Rieger: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's great.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh, there were a lot of fun things like that. And the man that I made a hamburger for. And I asked him, you know, how he wanted it done, you knowHistory rare orSociety whatever. "Well," he said, "I don't mind if it's still a kicking, but I don't want it to bawl." He was from Texas. And there was a lot of little things like that. Oral Rieger: Huh. Oh, that sounds fun.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But as far as the post office, there were things, but I can't thinkPark of anything Historical really unusual that happened. Like I say there were sometimes some unusual things that people mailed or either came in Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.State Mrs. Katzenmeyer: with it. Baby chicks or live, live bugs, and, and uh
Rieger: Hmmm. Minnesota Mrs. ItascaKatzenmeyer: I didn't ever have the experience they had in the Minneapolis post office of 40,000 lady bugs getting loose in the post office or something.
Rieger: Oh, goodness.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But, uh, I guess.
Rieger: What happened, did you ever have to save any, um, postal documents or anything?
60 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: What happened when?
Rieger: When it was closed down and?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well most of the documents and things that were still there, and then there were some old postmarking stamps and things like that, and they all went to the sectional center at Duluth, and they have a little history
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: history section there that, uhf that they um keep that sort of thing in, and I guess if anybody is interested like historical society, I thought maybe I could give some of it to the county historical society, Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: but they said no, they, they would take it and if the historical society wanted it, they could contact them so.
Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Practically everythingHistory went,Society went up there
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: that had anyOral historical value. But there was, there were some things there was an old postmarking stamp from 1903 and uh Rieger: Neat. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, it was a metal stamp and you could put the, you know, that little dealie that you had to put in there everyday with the day and the date and all that, and it, uhf the old, newer onesState are rubber.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota And I just wondered how that old metal stamp even stampedItasca anything because. Rieger: Yeah, hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: no give to it.
Rieger: Yeah, that's nice.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: So, uhf and as far as the boxes and that kind of stuff are still in the store building over there because they, they weren't postal property. Bob Sauer had bought them himself. And 61 most of the sorting places and counters and desk and all that sort of thing, he had built himself. So that stuff all stayed there.
Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: So if you walk In there now, there's the old boxes
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and he still had an old, real old fashioned looking boxes then counter, you know that
Rieger: Oh, I just think that's neat. Did you just decided that you wanted to retire or did they close you down? Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No, I decided, I decided to Projectretire. Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: There was, there was kind of a, a shake-up in the postal service. They were doing some, had a new postmaster general and they were making some maj or changes, and they had pretty good incentive for retirement.History Society
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And I turnedOral 65, so I thought well time has come.
Rieger: Yep, time to relax and kick back. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. But I, I kind of miss it.
Rieger: Well that just seems like because it was such an interesting jobState Mrs. Katzenmeyer: It, yeah, it was very, very interesting. It was one I just kind of fell into, I mean I didn't pursue the job at all because like I Minnesotasaid I hadn't ever even thought about it Rieger:Itasca Dh-huh. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: but I'm glad I did.
Rieger: Once you were there, yeah, you're
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I'm glad I did. Yeah.
Rieger: Good.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
62 Rieger: How much contact was there between local residents or park workers, urn, and the university station and those, the kids that were there, the students, urn
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: You mean between the park and them? Or
Rieger: Uhf well the park, you and
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh.
Rieger: the local residents, people that worked there, I was interested in
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh yeah, I think quite a bit. Course a lot of the park employees were local people. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm, mmmm-hmrnm. Project Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Urn, maybe, well of course the managers too lived, lived in the area and you know
Rieger: Right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: the ladies get acquaintedHistorySociety and
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: we had homemakersOral clubs and kids get acquainted through 4-H and different things Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Park Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: so I mean there was, it was quite a bit of contact and uh and of course through the post office I got so I knew almost everybody because sooner or later almost everybody would come in andState Rieger: Mail something.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: mail something and introduce themselves or I would see, you knowMinnesota certain people got lots and lots of mail so I'd Rieger:Itasca Okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I'd learn those names and so on, and some of the uh teachers had been there for many years,
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: and had come back summer after summer. Got well acquainted with those.
63 Rieger: Mrnmm-hmmm. Were there any problems, urn, between the university station and the park itself, any conflicts that you remember when you were there or you remember hearing about?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't
Mr. Katzenmeyer: No, not that I know of. They were always fairly cooperative I think.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think so too.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Sometimes more so than others depending on certain managers and so on .
.. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah,' I never ever remember mu.ch controversy.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: The only problem I ever heard, and that was after I quit there, was here a few years back, uh, theProject university had always, I don't know what their deal was with the park, but. they had always had them take care of their garbage. You know they had the truck and so on and so forth. Rieger: Mrnmm-hmmm. HistorySociety Mr. Katzenmeyer: And they brought their garbage up to [not understandable] truck and they hauled it away for them. And all of a sudden that quit, and then the town got imbursed to start hauling toward our town dumps ter sandOral tha t 's where I go t in to it, bu t because it overloaded them, and as a result, you know the local people, all of us in the county are paying for our garbage disposal, but the universityPark wasn't. Historical Rieger: Huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And they were overloading it and making a mess over there, but I heard that that happened, and I knew that there was something thatState happened in between there Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Mr. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota they, on our old end of Pine Ridge campground, there'sItasca a swamp that you go through, you know Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: coming around the bend and start towards Pine Ridge
Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: then there's a swamp that you go through, the low end. It was, it was pretty, uh, bottomless. For when they done
64 that they, they had what they called a borrow pit, they cut a great big hole in the bank on the right hand side. If you go in there, if you happen to look, you can see it in there, you know. There's a big, and they dug that all out and put in there to hold the road up
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: see into that swamp. And after that the park had kind of used it as burning area, you know. They had, uh, well if they tore a building down or had boards with nails in it or something like that they hauled it up there and in the fall of the year when there wasn't any danger they'd burn it.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And get rid of it. Well then finally they were told to clean it up and quit that because they Projectwere burning some things that they shouldn't be burning up there. But somebody come through there snowmobiling and there was some white wear in there. I don't know it was stoves or refrigerators or whatever it was, and this gal didn't say anything here locally she went right to St. Paul and turned it in. And of course the parks were caught, you know what I mean, and they went down andHistory lookedSociety but it happened to be University of Minnesota signs on it or tags on it. Rieger: Huh. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: And I guess there was some little friction over that for a couple of years. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: TherePark was a Historicallittle discussion, huh. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Because they weren't about to take the rap for them, you know. Not that they weren't guilty too. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.State Mr. Katzenmeyer: But Rieger: As longMinnesota as it was labeled. Mr. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Yeah.
Rieger: They'd let someone else take it.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But I guess that's been straightened out now, and I understand that they're hauling it, the garbage for them again now so.
65 Rieger: Hmmm. Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: That's the only time that I know of that they've had any problems.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I think they pretty much cooperate.
Rieger: Well you get more done when you cooperate with people
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh, yeah.
Rieger: thari if you fight with people anyway.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yep.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I think it's been, urn;' when 'Peterson was there, the park was pretty much alone. He didn't cooperate with Forestry, he didn't cooperate with the university, he didn'tProject cooperate with the local people, he, it was an island unto itself, you know.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But, uh, after that why things pretty much, you know, everybody got along with everybodyHistory else.Society
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It's too bad Oralthat they took the Forestry station out. I understand there's a chance they mean even build it back now. Rieger: Really? Hmmm. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: I don't know.
Rieger: Do you know what the reason, what you heard about the reasons behind Statethe removal of that, urn, I mean? Mr. Katzenmeyer: Oh, it was just, it was just political. They had an idea they were gonna, somebody did, that they were going to take this out and buildMinnesota a brand new station at Lake George. You know who has to pay for that, the taxpayer. And the people didn't, didn'tItasca see it that way.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And they fought them and they just got the phone in their mouth [bit in their teeth ?] and they just run with it and they
Rieger: Hmmm.
66 Mr. Katzenmeyer: And, the sad part of it was that, you know they, they didn't even have any public hearings on it. We plainly forced one. It was in December before we got it. Bitter cold, about thirty below that night. Close to thirty below, and our senator from this area, uh, came up for the meeting by my invi tation because he and I had worked together quite a lot and got along real well. He took in the meeting and when they, there was about 100 and I think somewhere around 130 people that attended that meeting.
Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And I don't think they had gotten halfway into their program before they found out that I don't think there was a person there that was in favor of it. Everybody, even the old people that had retired from the station, old foresters, had told them that no that was where it should stay' .,
Rieger: Hrnmm. Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: you know.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Even Lake George people weren't in favor of it. They didn't want it there. HistorySociety Mr. Katzenmeyer: And even the Lake George people didn't want them because Rieger: Huh. Oral
Mr. Katzenmeyer: the area they were going to use was, was county, was land that I guess the state owned, but they had developed a park on it. Park Historical Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: On Payne Lake, see, and they were going to lose their park if theyState built in there. Rieger: Hrnmm. Mr. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Anyway they finally just decided cut the meeting off, they were going to leave without a vote, they were just going to walkItasca away from it see because they knew they weren't getting anywhere. They didn't quite get by with it. We called for a vote. We stopped them before they got to the door and we called for a vote. There never was a nay vote in the bunch. Everybody said where it was, and then Roger Moe got up and told them, he said, "In view of what's happened here tonight," he said, "I think I have a quite a little clout down in the legislature," and he said, "As long as I had anything to say, you will never get money to build your new place." And they never have.
67 Rieger: Hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: So, you know they shot themselves in the foot.
Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And they kept a couple of little ones like Roy Lake and Guthrie over here, and both were in run down conditions. Now they can't hardly run 'em anymore. Now all of a sudden they're faced with having to close either to rebuild them or close them. They're not strategically located anymore, you know.
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: So all of a sudden here they are faciI?-.~ coming back here,
Rieger: Back at the beginning. Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: and am I going to be down here saying hurray when they do. I'm going to rub it in, I'll tell ya. Rieger: Yeah. HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, this seemed like the logical place to have it. Rieger: Uh-huh. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was so stupid. It's only ten miles, less than that the way the plane flies, you know, about 10, 12 miles to Lake George, you know, it'sPark stupid. Historical You've got everything you need here, except maybe another building, and there's plenty of room there for the building. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.State Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well I'd build a completely new place somewhere else. Umpf. Rieger: Politics,Minnesota again and again with the politics. Mrs. ItascaKatzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Boy that, that gets my dander up.
Rieger: Oh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, I guess
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Needless to say I haven't got too many friends there.
68 Rieger: Oh. Well you got to stand up for what you believe, right? So
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well, yes you do. If you don't, nobody else is gonna to do it for you.
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I can tell you that.
Rieger: Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But you know things, just, if there had been a good reason for it, sure I'd go along with it, you know.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But there wasn't. They had theProject homes, they had everything. Now the homes have been moved out, except for the one. All the other buildings have been moved out except that one store room, you know, the garage, the office building, and one home. They've all been moved out. Rieger: Hmmm. HistorySociety Mr. Katzenmeyer: Now if they bring it back, they're gonna have to put that back, and it gonna cost the taxpayer again. Oral Rieger: Yep, yep. Do you remember or was there any { I know, contact whatsoever when they had up at Squaw Lake, uh, what was it the Air Force recooperation camp? Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah,Park we knew a lot of those people, we knew a lot of those people.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: When they had the Air Force camp, we all. Yeah, they were around for awhile and so we got acquainted with quite a few of them. TheyState were kind of like our age at that time.
Rieger: Okay. Can you describe any of them or anything Minnesota Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Well, Rieger: that went on up there.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't know what went on up there, but uh
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well it was a rest camp the way I understood it.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, I think
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They came there for vacations and stuff.
69 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, but
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I mean some of them, had, you know had oh some losses or you know it was kind of a camp for
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But I mean the people that we knew were there all the time.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They were the operations.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, and then the officers
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They were the operators, you know.
Mrs. Katze~eyer.: The officers, or whatever, and then the others would come for a few weeks
Mr. Katzenmeyer: See they didn't live on the base.Project
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: so we didn't get to know them.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They, they uh, they some of them stayed down here at Schneider's Resort, HistorySociety Rieger: Okay, they lived off. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, they Orallived off, and that's Mr. Katzenmeyer: some stayed at what was Heinzelman's, it wasn't Heinzelman at that time, it was Reasbeck, but they had cabins there, and uh you know Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.Park
Mr. Katzenmeyer: different places around and
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, they lived close and so we got acquainted with some of them.State They had little kids, they were kind of our age, and Mr. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Because they were people, good [not understandable],Itasca kids, kids went to school here and Rieger: Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: that was many years ago when we first came up here. We even had a ball team, we had some of them that were pretty good ball players and in the summertime we played baseball.
Rieger: Where did you play? At the diamond that was at, it was
70 one at the resort right?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well they had one fixed up down here at Schneider's Resort, you know
Rieger: Okay, I guess
Mr. Katzenmeyer: there's nothing left of, well it's all planted into trees now
Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: but there was a diamond in there.
Rieger: Yeah, I remember. hearing that there was a diamond down at one of the resorts, but" I wasn't sure whose it was .. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, well I guess years ago,Project the CC days they used to play ball over at Sauer's Resort.
Rieger: Did they?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, yeah. Society Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Because the boys thatHistory were at camp here
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, they played down there.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: there was aOral path through the woods
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: thatPark they could Historical go, go through you know without
Rieger: Right. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State Of course, there wasn't a road here anyways. Rieger: Uh-huh. When, when you first came up here, speaking of, of this used to be the CCC camp, urn, could you tell that, that there had been, Minnesotawere there buildings left here or were they all down byItasca that time? Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No buildings, no.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: No, no they were all destroyed, but you could tell they hqd been here
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: because up on the hill up here there's a big hole in the ground where the kitchen was and they had a basement in it. 71 The building was gone but the hole was left and the foundations and stuff.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And there were some circular rocks that without [were no doubt] flower beds and [not understandable] and stuff.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: There's still some, you can't see them now because the grass has grovID up around them now, but in the spring you can see 'em up on the side hill there. They must have had flower
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think, yeah, I think when we see pictures [you can see flowers around flagpoles]
Mr. Katze~eyer: There's one whole foundation that sticks out on the lawn out here yet that weuncQvered. I think that the cap, I have been informed or told that the captain or the commanders had their cabins up here and the barracks and thingsProject were up the other way
Rieger: Okay, yeah, uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: away from people. And every time I've dug in a water line or anything like that, whenHistory you goSociety down any depth, well you cut water lines and tile lines and stuff allover here, you know. Rieger: Hmmm. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: It was probably pretty well built up all around. But they, you know the government destroyed everything, took everything with them whenPark they Historicalleft so. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: We had found a few things in that, on the edge of that pond over across. Of course, that was a bigger pond Mr. Katzenmeyer:State Yeah. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: at one time than it is now. But, uh, the beavers came in there a couple years ago and they started dredging mud up from the Minnesotabottom and they also dredged up some, some little artifacts.Itasca Rieger: Really? What type of things?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh, uh,
Rieger: [not understandable] or
Mr. Katzenmeyer: No, grubhoe.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No, a grubhoe and then there was a big old
72 [grindstone]
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I took that, Ben has got that.
Rieger: Really?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I gave it to him because I figured you know it'd be worth more to him.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: There was another, uhf I think it's still out in the garage, a metal, round metal something or other that was pretty heavy, I mean. And then last fall, one of our grandsons found an old fashioned padlock.
Rieger: Oh, wow.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And uhf you know it's just little things like that. Project Mr. Katzenmeyer: We tried to talk him out of it, but he wouldn't let us have it. I would like
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: We did find urn HistorySociety Mr. Katzenmeyer: I would like to give that to Ben because I think Ben would have really gone for that, you know. Rieger: Yeah. Oral Mr. Katzenmeyer: So much different than the padlocks are now. Rieger: Uh-huh. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: They were made so much heavier.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, it had a brass or whatever front. It was round. And then the front was separate kind of, and kind of brass and it had someState writing and stuff on it. And that was really pretty shiny yet. Rieger: Oh, neat.Minnesota Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca And then uhf we used to find bottles and uhf a few whisky bottles urn some other things and I've even still [got a] stainless steel mixing spoon that we found.
Rieger: Oh, huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I remember when the boys were little, they went out in the pasture and there was little hummocks and stuff around. They found this, this mound of dirt, you know, of course it was grown over with grass, and I don't know he started digging and they
73 were sure they had found an indian mound. And I think what they found was beef bones, I think that was where they had dumped their
Rieger: Okay.
Mrs. Katzeruneyer: you know stuff from cooking. Because those never came from any people [The boys thought they had found Indian mounds. ]
Rieger: No.
Mrs. Katzeruneyer: the ones we saw.
Rieger: Hmmm. Where did you usually go for like feed supplies? Was it Bagley or Park Rapids or Bemidji or did you stay just in the area at the local stores? .
Mrs. Katzeruneyer: Well we did, yeah we did tradeProject quite a bit at the local stores, but uh, I guess in the early days, we went to Bagley more. It was our county seat and
Rieger: Uh-huh. Mrs. Katzeruneyer: and, uh, then afterHistory awhileSociety we started going to Park Rapids.
Mr. Katzeruneyer: Well in those days Bagley was Oral Mrs. Katzeruneyer: Yeah, was a little bit more of a
Mr. Katzeruneyer: was a thriving town of the two. It's been the last 30, 40 years that Bagley's gone down the drain and Park Rapids has really come on. ParkBagley Historicalhad more doctors, they had more dentists.
Mrs. Katzeruneyer: Yeah.
Mr. Katzeruneyer:State Uh, Park Rapids just was business, but now it's just the opposite by far. Rieger: Huh. Minnesota Mr. Katzeruneyer:Itasca Park Rapids has really come on. Mrs. Katzeruneyer: We don't go to Bemidji very often. Just once in awhile for something special, but generally we don't. It's a little further
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzeruneyer: and really for what we use, Park Rapids is fine.
74 Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And we do buy at the local stores too and stuff. We always have.
Rieger: Okay. When you were living up here, I know it's a little bit different now but when you first came you're talking about living in the little tar paper shack during the winter, I'm just curious about, you know once you finally moved here, was there a huge difference living up in this area season to season. I mean, I can only imagine that if there was, especially when the road wasn't here, 'and can you describe
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: From where we lived before you mean? Or Rieger: .' Just, yeah,' well or from summer to winter,
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh. Project
Rieger: I mean a lot of your life, I mean, yeah
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Of course winter was kind of hard. We Rieger: No, you just had to dress warmer,History huh.Society Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah. We didn't have the greatest vehicles in those times and the snowplows didn't amount to too much, you know. It was a little harder to get Oralaround. I guess I suppose we just didn't go very much. We, uh, I guess that happens a lot, you know we used to, when we went somewhere we went to visit our neighbor and we took our kids along and when they came to visit us they brought their kids alongPark and youHistorical don't do that anymore. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But, uh, I don't know.
Rieger: That'sState what I thought. I was just curious if there's anything that I was Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota Like I say this, this um, road wasn't here. In fact, Itascain the very late forties and 1950 we had had rains Mr. Katzenmeyer: Like this [year].
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, yeah, but this isn't
Mr. Katzenmeyer: No.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: anything like we had then. I mean we were sitting on an island here.
75 Rieger: Really? Oh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, urn, well just on the other side of where your car is parked, you know, there's a fence and it goes downhill a little bit, the water was almost up to there. And this old part of this driveway was all underwater. And the only way we could get out was to walk through the pasture and then we had a little foot bridge over a little ditch thing, otherwise we were completely surrounded by water.
Rieger: Oh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And we left our car out on Easy Street .
. Ri~ger: Uh-huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: So that's how we got out. Project I Rieger: Huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But, you know, that was, that was years. It was probably two or three years and we had a lotta, lotta, lotta rain, I and it just rained, you know it took a lot of rain to make that much water here because we've never hadHistory waterSociety like that since. Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well I think we had a couple of years when we had an awful Oral Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Annual snow melt too.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: snowfall, snowfall. You get more of a runoff from snow than you do fromPark rain. Historical Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: Right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State But it rained in the summer too. I mean the water was high and then it just kept constantly raining.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: We put a lot of it all the sloughs way north of here for a mileMinnesota all drained this way and it all come down through here, Itascayou know, and it all [not understandable] Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And this pond doesn't have an outlet. All it's got is an inlet so that's why it winds up here.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: It all backed up right here, you know.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But it was kind of different.
Rieger: Interesting.
76 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, but we've never had, we've never had water like that since.
Rieger: Hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Of course, it's had some even pretty dry years.
Rieger: Hmmm.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: This rain we've had this year really hasn't, hasn't amounted to anything as far as, except being a nuisance.
Rieger: Yeah, oh. It doesn't even seem like summer.
~~s. ~atzenmeyer: No. Rieger: Reflecting on your life here in and around the park and the area in general, um, can you describe any of Projectthe feelings that you have, or the impressions, or? This is sort of an ambiguous question, I know it's, but is there anything that comes to mind that you'd like to say about living in the area, uh, the development that you've seen of Itasca State Park, people, urn? Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't know. I Historyguess we'veSociety lived here long enough to me it's home. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Oral Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I don't even think about where we used to live as, as home. I haven't for many, many years. Because our kids all grew up here and, and uh, I don't know I guess we've always got along well with our neighborsPark andHistorical stuff. I've enjoyed it here. Rieger: Have you enjoyed having the park so close? Do you uh
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think so. State Rieger: Do you, have you been there a lot, a lot of picnics or
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No, we don't go on any picnics much but we know it's there all theMinnesota time. Rieger:Itasca Right.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I mean, uh, we do visit some and always brag about living next to the park.
Rieger: Okay, yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Even when I was a post office, when I'd write to some other postal place miles from here, I'd put [Headwaters of] the Mississippi and Lake Itasca.
77 Rieger: Well, I mean that's something special.
Mrs. Katzenrneyer: Sure it is.
Rieger: It really is, you know.
Mrs. Katzenrneyer: Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Katzenrneyer: I even had occasion to use that a few times when I was on the Mississippi Headwaters board, you know. We had Beltrami Couty and Itasca County, Morrison County and some of the big counties down the line, you know, they always kind of looked down on us here, you know. When we were writing the ordinances and stuff, why they'd get, kind of get under my hide sometimes. I'd finally say well folks we got the headwaters. Rieger: Good for you. Project Mr. Katzenrneyer: We may be just a little county but we got the headwaters. I I ' Rieger: Right, right. Mrs. Katzenrneyer: And I can HistorySociety Mr. Katzenrneyer: And they can't take that away from us. Mrs. Katzenrneyer: Yeah, and Oralthe park has been good for this community because almost everybody has worked there. It'd be, it'd sure be a different kind of a place if it wasn't for the park. Mr. Katzenrneyer: The wholePark area Historical would be different. Mrs. Katzenrneyer: The whole, yeah.
Mr. Katzenrneyer: Park Rapids wouldn't be near the town it is if that wasn't here.State Mrs. Katzenrneyer: No, no that's true. Mr. Katzenrneyer:Minnesota Because that traffic that comes, the majority of your trafficItasca let's face it comes from the south. Rieger: Right.
Mr. Katzenrneyer: And it comes from Park Rapids and as a result, the resorts and the stores and everything around Park Rapids, if it wasn't for the park drawing the people here, they wouldn't have the [business] it does now.
Mrs. Katzenrneyer: They wouldn't have it very much either.
78 Mr. Katzeruneyer: The park is the drawing point, you know, I mean that's what draws the people here. A good share of them.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mrs. Katzeruneyer: Yeah, some of the
Mr. Katzeruneyer: Your tourists, I mean, you know I don't mean the people that have got a home on the cabin, on a lake, or cabin or something like that. Because they would [come anyway?]
[End side two, tape 2] [Begin side one, tape 3]
Discuss~o. restoring 010. buildings during tape cha:nge ".
Mr. Katzeruneyer: " .there. And I think it's all for the good. I hope it doesn't too late, that's, I know it's Projecttoo late for some things, but
Rieger: Yeah, but hopefully now it will continue and
Mr. Katzeruneyer: Hopefully some of the important buildings like Forest Inn and Douglas Lodge and the OldHistory Timer'sSociety Cabin and some of them can be, can be salvaged and kept you know. Mrs. Katzeruneyer: I guess we allOral kind of resist change. Mr. Katzeruneyer: You know the one thing that's bugged me for years is you've got that cabin, that replica of the old post office bui lding tha t they bui 1 t down there, you've probably seen it, didn't ya? Park Historical Mrs. Katzeruneyer: Well, it's the Wegmann cabin and the one that's right next to it. Rieger: Okay, yeah.State I've never been inside, but Mr. Katzeruneyer: Well, they many years ago, uh, probably 30 years ago they got word from the Minnesota Historical Society that they should repair thatMinnesota the old cabin see. Rieger:Itasca Uh-huh.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: And they sent two of us down there to look at it and see what it needed, measure it, measure the size of the logs, see what would have to be done. At the time we went, it could have been repaired.· We got the estimate made and sent it to 'em. They waited another 10 years. That was Andie Peterson's doings. And then by that time the cabin, the cabin was at the point where it had to be done or it was going to be [gone].
79 Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They waited too long, and then it wasn't worth repairing. There was nothing to repair anymore, you know. So then they turned around and built this replica. And to me that was the biggest joke that ever was. Because what's the replica mean?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think it's kind of good that they left the old cabin though.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: In the first place, the guy they got to come in and build that, he came in there with a power saw. He was so dumb he couldn't even level it. We had to go up there and put in the foundation and stuff for him. He couldn't even get it level, and he couldn't figure out how to get his bottom logs down so that they would come· out levei with your cross logs and stu·ff.· .. .
Rieger: Uh-huh. Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: We had to. And then they call it a replica.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, [not understandable]. But I said it's kind of good that it's, the old one is still there so that they kinda can see that this is the way itHistory probablySociety looked.
Rieger: Right.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: But it's a dirtyOral shame because there was a time that could have been saved.
Rieger: Yeah. Park Historical Mr. Katzenmeyer: You know, and I mean they got the idea in time, if they'd have done something with it. Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm.State Mrs. Katzenmeyer: There is an old log cabin over on the Sauer's place too you know, the old original post office Rieger: Okay, Minnesotauh-huh. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca and store up there. That's still standing.
Rieger: Is it, are they planning on keeping it standing or restoring it or?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: As far as I know they, urn, I don't know if they've done too much to it, but uh they do use it at hunting season. They have some hunters in there.
Rieger: Hmmm.
80 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: One thing that kind of tickled us for a few years, how many times they changed these little roads on this end of the park, along the picnic area.
Rieger: Oh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I remembered and three years later they'd move it to another spot and plant that with trees and then they'd move it somewhere else. And that, that road had been changed so many times it got to be kind of a joke.
Rieger: I've heard that.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm. And then it finally it wound up kind of in the place where it was! or paxt of. t.t, you kn9W that. they had had it'0~6e before ..,
Rieger: Right, they just Project
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well the old original went right straight through you know.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well, yeah, that maybe wasn't [so good]. It was probably good to take that away from Historythe picnicSociety [area], you know, so it didn't go around there, but, but it was so funny because every few years they'd change it again. Mr. Katzenmeyer: When they changedOral it from down along the river there, why then they, they brought it around and brought it out right up at the corner up there by the corner of my field, you know. Historical Rieger: Mmmm-hmrnm. Park
Mr. Katzenmeyer: That's where it came out where the contact station was. Well that didn't work out because then they had to come clear up there and then go clear back down to get over to the headwaters on theState other side and everything so then they planted that part, they abandoned that part and planted it into trees, and then cut made the bend and wound right down across the culvert. In fact, I helped cutMinnesota the trees out of there. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca But it just seemed kinda funny there for awhile because every few years there was a road changed again.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: They didn't holler that time about cutting the trees out of the way.
Rieger: Huh.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, some of those places had grown up pretty much again where they planted in trees, you know years go by and
81 it's longer than you think.
Rieger: Yeah, it's, it's hard for me sometimes to picture how it was.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: lmrumm-hmmm.
Rieger: You know whether it was back in homestead pioneer days, the CCC days,
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Well I'm sure
Rieger: even you know
" ~;,s,. ,K~t,ze,n.mey~r: I'm sure that was a lot different than it was when we came, you kn'ow ." , Rieger: Yeah, mmmm-hmmm. Project I Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Because when Keith like Keith Butler in his presentation talked about urn like the McMullen place and all these places right on the lake I Rieger: Right. HistorySociety Mrs. Katzenmeyer: it was kinda hard to picture just what that was like. Oral Rieger: Yeah, interesting, I guess if you really think. Well, yeah, I can see it. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: And Parkthere weren't Historical any roads, you know. Rieger: Yeah, and the big trees and, but it's interesting yeah how things can change so radically Mrs. Katzenmeyer:State Mmmm-hmmm. Rieger: you know. And really that wasn't 'that' long ago compared to other places Minnesota Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Itasca Oh no. Rieger: in the world, you know so.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: No, this country is still pretty young.
Rieger: Mmmm-hmmm. Is there anything else that, that you would like to add that you want to talk about or or think that we should talk about that I didn't cover at all? I tried to cover most everything that I
82 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: I think that you've done a pretty good job of covering [not understandable] I imagine other people have told you things too but
Rieger: Yeah, you get, you get a lot of different, diffent things and just different perspectives, and then you put 'em together then it adds to the whole picture, but um. Any colorful people that you can come across that you, should be remembered do you think or?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Ben Thoma.
Rieger: Ben'Thoma. Any of the people at Douglas Lodge that stand out in your mind, talked to a few of them?
f ~rs.~ .. Katzenmeyer: , . ~~J.-. Lupch.,en .w?J,s ,.a. .go 9.9 ..f.r~~~c1. 9 0 ,9.':l::r::9..!~ ... H~ .. wa?; there managing that for quite a few years, of course we got to know their family too. Project Rieger: Yeah, I had the opportunity to talk to Lorraine earlier in the summer.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mromm-hmmm. Yeah, I'm sure he, he lived through quite a bit of change down there. HistorySociety Rieger: Yeah.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: But she did too because she was working there right alongside him most of theOral time. Rieger: Right, right. Glance through my notes one more time, make sure I. Community people, the Wegmanns, well I think, I think I hope basically that we Parkcovered Historicalmost everything that Mr. Katzenmeyer: Well if you think of something else later on why Rieger: Yeah. State Mr. Katzenmeyer: you can always give us a call. But I can't think of anything. Mrs. Katzenmeyer:Minnesota No, I can't think of anything in particular. Rieger:Itasca Okay.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: I do think that maybe Kenny Felt could give you some insight into some of, some of the early days and stuff because his family was settlers here
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mromm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: and he's been here all his life.
83 Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah.
Rieger: Right in this area?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, well it's about 4 miles north, but I mean he grew up here.
Rieger: It would be a Lake Itasca address or?
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Uh, no it would be Route 2, Shevlin.
Rieger: Shevlin, okay.
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Mmmm-hmmm.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: He uh also been sheriff for the' county" and" s'o he you know while he was [?], he's been retired now for what 20 years probably. Project
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Oh, it can't be that long can it?
Mr. Katzenmeyer: Maybe 15. Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, maybe longer.History Society Mr. Katzenmeyer: Anyway, you know I mean there may be from that end of it, he maybe could giveOral you some instances of you know Rieger: Yeah.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: different things. A little different perspective. And he would haveHistorical the old settlers end of it because he grew up through that,Park his folks were old settlers here and uh
Rieger: Great.
Mr. Katzenmeyer: He's still here so I imagine he might even have some pictures. State
Mrs. Katzenmeyer: Yeah, that's possible. Minnesota Rieger:Itasca Great. Well I'll thank you. [End interview]
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