Report of Proceedings of House of Keys

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF HOUSE OF KEYS

Douglas, Tuesday, March '7, 1967

Present: The Speaker (Mr H. C. as the hon. member for Peel. When Kerruish, C.R), Messrs R. J. G. this House erected him to the Anderson, H. D. C. MacLeod, E, N. Legislative Council it was in every way Crowe, R. F. S. KerrUish, P. Radcliffe, an admirable choice. Mr Gale took his Miss J. C. C. Thornton-Duesbery, full share of all the responsible admini- Messrs P. A. S.pittall, W. E. Quayle, strative work which falls on the T. C. Faragher, A. H. Simcocks, G. T. shoulders of members of Tynwald, and Crellin, C. L. P. Vereker, J. A. Moore, at all times maintained that sunny and T. A. Corkish, E. C. Irving, C. E. Burke, cheerful disposition which we all G. V. H. Kneele, G. A. Devereau, R. MacDonald, A. S. Kelly, Sir Henry remember so well. A man of his Sugden, K.B.E., C.B., D.S.O., with Mr temperament is invaluable to any T. E. Kerineen, Secretary to the House. legislative assembly, and those of us who worked with him found that our tasks, however onerous, were lightened by his good natured participation in RETURN OF THE SECRETARY debate and deliberation. To his family we offer our sincere sympathy which AFTER mraNEss we hope to show by our attendance at The Speaker: Hon. members, I am his funeral this afternoon. Members sure I express this morning the pleasure will be aware that I propose to adjourn we all feel at seeing our secretary back the House at 12.15 to enable members in his accustomed place. (Hear, hear!) to reach Peel by 1.45 p.m. And in welcoming him back, fully recovered after a severe illness, assure him that he has our good wishes. for continuing good health in the future. DEATH OF MR J. N. PANES, At the same time 1 would like to pay a C.B.E., M.A. tribute to the sterling work done in his The Speaker: Now this House,, and in absence by the assistant secretary of particular its more senior members, the House, Mr Norman Clague, who will have learned with great regret the was ably assisted by Miss Collister and passing of Mr J. N. Panes, C.B.E., M.A., Miss Quilliam. who for 11 years until 1954 was Government Secretary and Clerk to the Council. We are aware of the massive legislation which marked the post-war DEATH OF MR G. C. GALE years; the rapid expansion of the Civil The Speaker: It is now, hon. Service which ensued: and the members, my sad duty to refer to the substantial administrative changes death of Mr George Gale, who from which took place. In all these Mr 1958-1964 served this House faithfully Panes took an important part. The

Return of the Secretary after illness.—Death of Mr G. C. Gale.—Death of Mr J. N. Panes, C.B.E., ,M.A. 754 HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967

calls on his knowledge and experience particularly pleasant one, showing the were considerable, and although it is horrors of this type of warfare, The 13 years since he retired from office the Secretary to the House has tickets for tributes which were then paid to his the film should any member require efficiency and conscientious application them. to duty are as valid today. Mr Panes was not only a man of administrative skill but also the possessor of artistic MARINE, ETC., BROADCASTING ability, especially in the photographic OFFENCES ( ISLE OF MAN) BILL field, and examples of his art which he —DISCHARGED left at Government Office will I trust remain as a memorial to him. With The Speaker; Now, gentlemen, to the permission of the House I propose proceed with the business as set out on to send to his son and daughter this the agenda paper. We have the Marine, expression of our sympathy and etc., Broadcasting Offences Bill for second reading and I call upon the hen. appreciation of his work in the public member for Peel, Mr MacDonald. service of this Island. Mr MacDonald: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, hon. members, the object of this Bill is explained in COMMITTFE OF PRIVILEGE the memorandum to it, but I wish to enlarge on the circumstances leading up The Speaker: I would also inform hon. to the necessity for its introduction. members that the meeting of the From the early days of radio being used Committee of Privilege which was as a means of communication, and in appointed on the 14th February and fact even when it was only a theoretical convened for 2.30 this afternoon will proposition, it was realised that its use- now be held at 4 p.m. tulness to mankind could be severely Jeopardised by misuse or uncontrolled use of the limited spectrum that nature offered as a means of transmitting FILM—"THE WAR GAME" messages beyond the limit of sound waves. The scientific proof of this was The Speaker: Finally, the Isle of Man eventually accepted internationally, and Territorial Army Unit have informed this resulted in an international body me that they have arranged for a show- coming into being even before ing of the B,B.C. film "The War Game" Marconi's great experiment made radio communication over long distances which deals with the subject of what a feasible proposition. This body, may happen in the event of a nuclear the International Telecommunications attack on a town in Britain. An Union, became by agreement associated invited audience of police, Civil with the League of Nations, that is the Defence Corps, St. John Ambulance, old League, and is today the oldest British Red Cross and similar international body associated with the United Nations, and it is in fad organisations have been asked to see pledged to encourage—"the co-operation the film at the Strand Cinema, Douglas, between all members and even non- at 8 o'clock on Wednesday, March 8th, members of the United Nations in the I understand that the film is not a use of telecommunications, including

Committee of Privilege..—Film—"The War Game."—Marine, etc.. Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. • HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967 ' 755 visual communication services" and I I put that in as being the present views stress, "for the benefit of all mankind." of the Broadcasting Commission. Now Now this International Telecommunica- without going into great technical tions Union, Mr Speaker, apparently details, Mr Speaker, I think it would be from their last published convention, proper for me to explain exactly what Montreux 1965. it would appear that happens on these medium wavebands this Island can in fact become a member which are the ones that we are really of this body. In chapter 1 of the interested in. To put it very simply a convention, which has been signed by signal being broadcast on the medium al] members of the union — and that wave from a very simple aerial includes most of the members of the system will radiate at an angle to United Nations, in fact I think every the earth's surface which will tend to member of the United Nations is a increase with increasing frequency. In member of the union and a few non- other words the angle it leaves the members are members of the union-it surface of the earth will tend to rise specifically states that the union shall as the frequency of the signal increases. comprise members and associate Now you will thus get a low frequency members, and a member of the union signal, that is one on the long wave, shall be any country or group of tending to follow the earth's surface, territories listed in annex 1 to this and only covering an area rather convention upon signature, and ratifica- limited by its power output. If you tion of or accession to this convention, have a large output of power on the by it or its behalf. Now the United long wave that will tend to follow the Kingdom Government signed this—in curvage of the earth untiiL absorption of :act, signed it twice. They signed it on the signal by the land masses, buildings, behalf of themselves, the United King- trees, etc., the sinal fades out. But dom, and the delegates also signed it in the medium waveband which is the on behalf of overseas territories for the one we are many interested in today, international relations of which the the medium .waveband simals are government of the United Kingdom of radiated from the earth, although a fair Great Britain and Northern Ireland are amount of power covers the surface of responsible. Now your Broadcast: ng the earth and hence you will get a short Commission, Mr Speaker, consider that range in distance from the station this second group were probably sign- originating this signal or message. But ing on behalf of the Isle of Man, We a large proportion of the signal radiates are not a colony as you are well aware, up into the atmosphere where it hits we are not a part of the United King- above the earth a layer of ionised gas dom, and it would appear in fact that which acts almost as a mirror, and that we are covered by a• signature for reflects it back down on to the earth's territories for which the United surface. The number of times you get Kingdom is responsible for their this reflection back to the earth will international relations. The Broad- depend on the power output and the casting Commission consider that angle, the transmitted angle of the membership o this union may be of signal. Now this does mean that a advantage to this Island in our ,battle station on the medium waveband broad- for increased power for our own. station. casting at a fair output may cover

Marine, etc.. Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Pill—Discharged. 756 HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1.967

an area quite close to the station and this is the reason why the power out- say perhaps up to the British Isles but put, apart from the frequency, has been it is not only covering the area of the eontrolled or they would like to control British Isles. A large proportion of the the allocation to various countries. signal will be radiated, as I mentioned, Albough, I do etress this, Mr Speaker, into the atmosphere and reflect back that due to international politics many on to earth somewhere else. Now this is of the countries concerned who have tne problem that we have got with, what signed this agreement are themselves some people call -Pop" stations, and no abiding by it. this is a very very some people caa -Pirate" stations which interesting point. Many countries have I will discuss later. This is the agreed that .only those channels and nraOlem we are laced with. There is fir.quencies registered with the union no doubt at all that certain of these 54•:'1 be used by themselves, many of stations, not only these stations I must lh m are in fact permitting stations to admit, many so-called legal stations a,:-Jrate in .thelr name, and in other cause this trouble. But these stations names, quite contrary to the principles in particular I think are being picked of the United Nations instruction and on because they do not belong to a aTreement. Now we have all heard, national body. They are radiating of course, I presume, the effects of tneir signals, their messages, their certain of our commercial stations music—this is going out, and although operating on these frequencies of their in our local case it happily covers the own choice and their own power, but British Isles which we would like to I would stress, however, here that as ourselves, some of this signal does come far as I can see at the moment, and I tnink as far as the Broadcasting down in Eastern Europe, it varies with Ccrnmission can see at the moment, day and night the area in which it is there would appear to be nothing illegal reflected back but it does cover certain about these stations operating on the parts of Europe. So quite recently we high seas. There is nothing at all have had cases of complaint being made illegal. In fact this Bill which has come to the I.T.U. and I believe to the United to us from another place doesn't seek Kingdom Government. by the to make their location and position of Czechoslovakian Broadcasting Service oi.,:erating illegal. But what it does is and by the Hungarian Broadcasting t at it makes it illegal for anyone, or Service, that one of our stations dybody—I am making a precis of what operating outside our territorial waters it does, subject to the jurisdiction of is in fact affective- the normal broad- Courts to supply, maintain, casting services of these two states. In r..ipport, service, own, operate Or fact I think the one that was quoted was proeure another to do so, or to Czech—this station has been affected advertise, or invite another to do so, or quite seriously by broadcasts operating to make any artistic works, speech, etc., on the high seas just outside British intended for use by, or sell, let or hire waters. Mr Speaker, that is the films, records which I think includes technical problem put very simply. I tapas, intended for use by a broadcast- don't want to enlarge on it, but it will ing station, operating from a. ship, air- give you an idea how this happens, why craft, or any platform. structure, afloat interference occurs. Now this has got or fixed on the seabed, which does not to be faced up to by this world body aoerate on a wireless telegraphy responsible as it is for registering all licence issued by the Postmaster- the frequencies used by broadcasting General. This is what this Bill intends and telecommunication services, and to do. It doesn't in fact, it can't in fact

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967 757

. stop this station operating on the high small — if in fact they were not being seas, What it does is make it an offence picked in), and I 'believe they are - for anyone to support this operation, or if they were not being picked up any citizen—I know the definition of around the Irish Sea area contrary to Manxman is difficult—any citizen to the wishes of the Postmaster-General, I assist or in any way help or even doubt if this station would pay at all. operate or work for such a station. It is a very serious position that they Now that is the meat of the Bill. are in and I think the commission will I am quite aware, Mr Speaker, of come up with more details on this at other implications, and indeed last night a later date. With its limited power I must admit my own conscience as the output, now .1 am talking about our own father of two young children did worry station, it doesn't really give us a me, about in fact having .to bring this chance to uphold the very principles Bill before the House. But I did consider, as chairman of the Broadcast- wl,ich the B.B.C., the much vaunted ing Commission, it my duty to do so. principles of "Nation speaking peace The decision a.ter all rests with this unto nation." I accept the B.B.C.'s right ancient House whether you accept it or to broadcast in such a way that we in reject it— the Isle of Man and throughout the British Isles can listen to B.B,iC. Mr Kelly: You don't believe in the services, but I myself am very doubt- Bill then? ful whether that gives them the right to say that a Manx station shouldn't Mr MacDonald: I believe in certain equally speak peace unto the people in principles of the Bill, Mr Kelly. I think the United Kingdom, 'and give them the it is up to the House to make a decision. opportunity of listening to our view- I think it would be Very wrong for me points and our points of view, I am as chairman of the Broadcasting al.5o rather worried about the principles Commission to say—"I will not present of human rights associated in this Bill, it—no one else will present it, so I and the rights of small nations. No don't think the House of Keys should one can deny the right of the B.B.C. to bother about it." I think that would speak to the Manx people as I say, but be completely wrong. Let us decide it. I contend that, and I hope that our I am also aware, Mr Speaker, of the committee charged with looking into feelings of our own people, the Manx the relations existing between this people, over radio generally, Despite Isia.nd and the United Kingdom will only a few members last week accepting consider seriously that our people also that there are such people as Manx. I have the right to speak as I said before would say that we, the Manx peoples' to the people o: the United Kingdom, representatives here, are not happy nor and through the medium of Manx content with the Postmaster-General's Radio. The decision to reject Tynwald's limitations placed on our own station. Bill to rescind the Wireless Telegraphy These limitations, hon. members, I may Order, 1952, of course I think again this as well say make this station hardly a committee could quite well look into. It viable proposition. I haven't been long rather worried me that the decision of as chairman of the commission, but I Tynwald should be thwarted. I hope have had experience of these sort of hon. members will note that at the end stations before and I would say that it of this Bill there was an amendment is extremely difficult for the present made by our learned Deemster, I think operators to operate in any way as a the amendments have been circulated. viable company. Very difficult indeed. There was an amendment made by our The set count in the Isle of Man is very learned Deemster to the effect that even

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. 758 HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967

if today this House accepts this Bill it to agree to torpedo Radio Caroline, but can in fact not be put into effect until not until then. I hope that hon. such time—that is if the amendment is members will discharge this Bill today acceptable—it cannot come into effect and re-open the whole question of a until such time as Tynwald in its powerful Manx Radio with West- wisdom on such a date determines. In minster. For there can be no doubt that other woids, if it is passed in the House this Island could provide the type of today, Mr Speaker, passed here and broadcast which the British public agreed, if the learned Deerrister's amend- obviously want, and we must be ment is acceptable, well the Bill itse:f, determined to get the opportunity to the Act, could not come into force do so. Now quite apart from other until Tynwald decided on a date to considerations I would like to refer to make it effective. Mr Speaker, I beg to a recommendation of the Strike move. Emergency Committee, and this report is signed by three of the existing Mr Kneale: I beg to second and members of Executive Council. I reserve my remarks. would just like to remind hon. members about this. "In the event of Mr Irving: Mr Speaker, in another place this Bill has had one very the removal DI Radio Caroline the Island would be left entirely without important amendment, and I refer to means of making its voice heard across the date of commencement, where in . the water"—and here is the recommen- another place it has been decided to delete "as the Governor may by Order dation, sir — "We recommend that the determine" and substitute "that Tyn- government continue to press for a wald may by resolution determine." signal strength for Manx Radio com- Now this amendment, sir, gave mensurate with the Island's proven members in another place the feeling needs. In the absence of such a signal that they could pass the Bill and stili we recommend that every possible retain the right to have a re-think medium of publicity available to the about it in Tynwald. But I would like Island should be used to the utmost." to point out to hon. members here that If we decide to pass this Bill today, this amendment, this important amend- remembering the possibility that it can ment, refers only to the date on which be reversed in Tynwald, we are, I the Act shall take effect, Now when believe, merely postponing the decision. members vote for the Bill here today, I want us to decide here today, and I sir, I hope they are doing so because want us to do so without the other they agree with the principle of the influences which we would find in Tyn- Bill and not just deferring the decision wald. 1 refer particularly, sir, to the to a resolution in Tynwald. I believe legal officers of the Crown. I want the that that device is quite wrong. To use Keys to do it in their own chamber and this end clause, the short title and not leave it to Tynwald. If we are to commencement, as a means for have this confrontation we hear about, scrapping the thing altogether. Now it this eye-ball to eye-ball confrontation, may be that hon. members, certain hon. let us have it now. If we have got to members, feel that they can back-pedal have a battle we must choose the right when this comes up in Tynwald, but. time and place, and to me this seems to not me, sir. I believe that when we be the most suitable battlefield for us, receive the support of the British that is the right of the Isle o`. Man to Government for a powerful commercial have a powerful commercial radio station in the Isle of Man I am prepared station, and I believe that the timing

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967 759 couldn't be better. In my election Bfitish Government shouldn't have campaign, in my manifesto, on the some control over the broadcasts of this question of an international radio powerful station. I hope that the station for the Isle of Man, I said "We British Government will consider this must show the British Government that matter and will re-open discussions on we are determined to proceed with this a powerful Manx radio station. If, on project, and this will call for the most the other hand, they care to ignore this resolute action." I also said at opportunity, and if they force their political meetings that I would not vote legislation on us, on our domestic for this Bill unless we got a powerful matters, I can only say what I have station on the Island, and I believe said before publicly on this matter. Let them legislate and be damned. Because other hon. members are committed the we are no worse aft if we throw this same way. Now I am prepared to face Bill out today and the British Govern- up to this resolute action today. I note ment legislate for us. I hope that hon. with joy, sir, that three daring members members will face up to the British of the Legislative Council have voted Government now and say — "We are against the Bill. I am delighted to see prepared to consider the ,Marine Offences Bill, when we have received it and I am pleased to see that they your support for a powerful radio are members elected by the Keys, and station located in the Isle of Man." I am going to support them. I hope the mover of the Bill today, even though Mr Simcocks: Mr Speaker, what we he has put his case for the Bill, I hope have to consider today is not merely a when he has finished speaking he will ouestion of whether or not Radio Caroline or any other high seas radio vote against the Bill altogether. Mr ship is to be allowed to continue. What Harold Wilson has recently said, talking we have to consider today is what I politically, that every dog is allowed one regard as a very vital constitutional bite, and I would say, or rather as problem. Hon. members will know that he would put it, speaking frankly and this is a matter which has long been a honestly, I am going to tell him today matter of considerable concern to me, that I am going to have one pragmatic and this is one of the reasons why I fee:, bite in his direction by voting against this concern. You see, sir, the learned this Bill. We are threatened that unless Attorney-General is on record as having we pass this Bill the Imperial said to another place that if we in the Government at Westminster will extend Isle of Man do not pass this Bill the British Government will impose their the provisions of their Act to the Isle Act on us. If constitutional law means c_ Man by Order in Council. anything, if the word of a Government department means anything, for the Mr Kelly: Let them have a go at it British Government to do that would then. surely be a complete abandonment by that government of all orincipes of Mr Irving: Let them have a go, I am international law and justice_ As I told prepared to take the chance. The Tynwald~ sir, two weeks azo, the whole British Government has today, or at question of what the British Govern- these times, the chance of creating in ment can reasonably do with regard to the Isle of Man a strictly controlled the Isle of Mans set out in the memo- powerful radio station, and I believe andum of the Home Office to the there is no reason at all why the MacDermott Commission and it is con-

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. 760 HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7. 1967 tained in the second volume of that from Home Office officials that whereas commission's report. At the risk of there are some unacceptable reper- repeating myself I must say again that cussions in United Kingdom legislation, whereas the British Government does, but the fact that our criminal law, in as the representative of the Crown. particular our Summary Jurisdiction claim the right ultimately to legis"ale Act, is different from that of the United for the Isle of Man because it claims to Kingdom, we have been reassured it is be responsible for the good government not an unacceptable repercussion. Here of the Island, the procedure under which again, sir, we have a clear case of the this is done is laid down very clearly in British Government being prepared to the Home Office memorandum. The change the rules governing the relation- procedure requires first that we, the ship between the United Kingdom and the Isle of Man in order to suit the legislature of the Isle of Man, should particular wishes of the United Kingdom ask that inrovision be made in an English for the time being. Sir, if we had been BE1 that it should be applied to us. approached by the British Government Secondly. that the Bill should contain a as a partner, if the mention by the clause enabling the Act to be applied to Home Office of inter-dependence rather than dependence had meant anything, the Isle of Min. and thirdly, that it if the British Government had come to should be applied to the Isle of Man Tynwald and said—"Gentlemen we are only if and when Tynwald specifically in some difficulty' with regard to the asks for that to happen. Again, sir, I suppression of extra-territorial water should remind the House of paragraph broadcasting, we would like your 16 of this memorandum of the Home assistance in this matter"— Office which says something like this— "In recent years His Majesty's Govern- Mr Kelly; That will be the day. ment have not sought to intervene in the domestic legislation in the Island, Mr Simcocks: It would have been save only so far as is necessary to rather a different prposition. But, sir, ensure that the administration of finan- this whole business has been conducted cial affairs of the Island are conducted on the basis that the only people on a proper basis." Sir, this Bill is in with any brains or authority apparently effect a requisition by the British are the British Government. Having Government requiring us to pass come to their decision in complete criminal legislation within the Island. isolation from any of our wishes, There was never a more domestic without consulting us in the slightest, subject ever than criminal legislation. they then turn round to us and say— You see, sir, we are not being asked to "Notwithstanding your right to internal say that we disapprove of extra- self-government, notwithstanding all we territorial waters broadcasting. We have said about your right to your own are being required, by "big brother," to domestic legislation, it happens to suit pass criminal legislation in the Isle of us at the moment that you will do as Man. and if we don't do it, then they you are told, and if you do not do it will do it for us. Surely, sir, criminal we will do it for you." This to my mind legislation is the most domestic of all makes complete nonsense of all our subjects. Surely, sir, we have always ideas of self-government. I agree had the right to decide whether or not entirely with the hon. member for East our criminal law shall be different Douglas, that we should indeed stand from that of the United Kingdom. up and let the British Government know Surely, sir, we have had reassurances that we are not the little dogs that the

Marine. etc.. Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967 761 hon. Prime Minister of Great Britain which very many people listen is today seems sa dearly to love. I would possibly the most effective means of say the proper way of dealing with this advertisement that there is. Now, sir, Bill is to get rid of it here and now. in that paper Radio Caroline suggested Let the British Government know that that there might well he a delay of up we are an independartt nation, and not to 21 years in setting up a similar type a lackey, with similar power, that sort of broadcasting station. But we have got Radio Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Speaker, I Caroline, it is working. Last week I would just first of all like to add one think it must have worked under very unpleasant conditions, but it has gone thing to what the hon. member for East on working. For goodness sake let us Douglas said. He pdinted out to us keep Radio Caroline, because there we very c early shall I say the dangers of have got something which is what we passing this, or possibly passing this want. We have got it right here as it Bill, on the understanding that we were in our hands. So for goodness would have, shall I say another go, or sake let's stick to it. Now, sir, there another chance, of turning it down in has been a good deal of suggestion about Tynwald. But, sir, there does appear bargaining with the British Govern- to me one other danger, So far as I ment. We will give up Radio Caroline am aware, sir, this Bill, although it has in exchange for our own high-powered received, I understand, its second read- station. I have already suggested, or ing in the Parliament at Westminster, least Radio Caroline has suggested, that the clauses have in fact not been that may involve the delay of up to considered, or anyway they have not something like 21 years, but let us look been finally considered and promul- back through history. Can anybody in gated. Now a degree of opposition was this hon. Court really give instances of expressed in that other place. and it where the weaker partner to a bargain may well be that the clauses may come has struck a good bargain with the more out quite differently from what they are powerful side? I personally cannot now in the Bill in that other place. I think of one. David did not bargain understand our Bill here is based very with Goliath, he just got on with the much on the other to which I have job. So let us do the same, and keep referred. I feel today we want indeed Radio Caroline. But I think we have to be careful. Now. sir, I would like at got to be reasonable about it. Now the the outset to express my very real hon. mover mentioned the degree of appreciation for Manx Radio. In a very Interference elsewhere, in far off able paper issued, I understand, by or countries, that the ships such as on behalf of Radio Caroline, in one Caroline might cause, but he did not place headed — "Radio A Vital Local mention Caroline. I gather from what Service"—they describe what local radio he said that it was not Caroline that can do. I think Manx Radio does all was causing difficulty in Czechoslovakia, those things, and does them very but another ship. Now there has also excellently for us on the Island. But, been a good deal of, shall I say, state- sir, Manx Radio cannot reach out ment in the press, that these "ship beyond our shores and they cannot radios", offshore stations, cause a good advertise us elsewhere, And surely in deal of interference on the shipping these modern days it is advertisement wavelengths. I have heard no that really counts, and that advertise- complaints whatsoever of any such ment will bring far more people to our ,nterference by our Radio Caroline. Island. Advertisement on radio to Now there is also another aspect and

Marine. etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle. of Man) Bill—Discharged. 762 HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967 that is the question of copyright. Mr Quayle: Mr Speaker, sir, I rise to According to the paper issued by oppose the Bill, sir. I gather it is the Radio Caroline they do apparently pay intention in another place to remove the performing rights—that I had not the independent radio stations — may I realised, but on the other hand they do use that ward rather than pirate radio not pay what they ought to to the stations — from the high seas. I Phonographic Performances Ltd., that presume, sir, that I am in order to make is to the people who have a copyright brief quotations from the debate in on gramophone records. Now my point another place. I refer to Westminster. is this, that there might well be I have read the English Bill, naturally considerable danger in a proliferation of our own Bill, and the full debate of these ships off our shores should they the 15th February last on the second come. Therefore I would play ball with reading. Now would have thought the British Government on this problem that since the object would appear to to the extent that we discharge this be the removal, the sweeping off the sea, Bill now, but we will show willing by of these ships, then something direct and passing another Bill legalising Radio factual would have been done about it. Caroline, shall I say making an honest Whether it would have been naval woman out of her, and at the same action or the like I wouldn't know, but time making it absolutely clear that we I am quite sure that those in power will not permit any other such station have the power to do just this. in or off our waters. That I think would Now what in fact does the Bill be a very good gesture to make to Her recommend? It recommends that thou Majesty's Government and it would shalt not victual and thou shalt not show that we were at least prepared advertise. Now, leaving aside the to meet them halfway. Now, sir, that thought that any sensible businessman is all I have to say at this moment. I who owns a pirate ship faced with these think I have made it already quite clear two alternatives will very easily get that even if this Bill goes through, and round them, leaving that quite aside, I sincerely hope that it will not, that I let us look at the reasons why this would be bitter:y opposed to taking the legislation should 'be. Members who clauses at this time, and I have have read the debate I think will agree suggested, shall I say, a compromise, with me that the main point that came and I think a very reasonable com- out was a desperate attempt to justify promise with Her Majesty's Govern- this piece of legislation by the party in ment in this sphere. It might well be power. This desperate attempt took the that it would be shall I say, a lucrative apparent face that the pirates didn't pay compromise so far as we are concerned any fees to the various societies who because surely if we are going to controlled music; that they were mis- legalise Caroline, we'l then we might using frequencies: that they were a well expect that Caroline would be very danger to safety at sea. If we look even grateful indeed, and might well pay us briefly at this we will find the particular a proportion of the fees, and I have no ship we are concerned with in fact does doubt they are very considerable fees pay fees, though as my hon. friend indeed, that they pull in for the from Ramsey said, not to the advertising that they do. I suggest phonographic society — I almost used therefore, Mr Speaker, we throw this the other word, pornographic, because Bill out, but as I have said we do co- if you read their terms of reference they operate to what I consider a very are pretty akin to both. Misuse of reasonable extent with Her Majesty's frequency, sir. You know as well as I Government. do, having attended many conferences

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged, HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967 763 in London in the days of the birth of and local radio, giving colour to all Manx Radio, just how many frequencies three television services and going to throughout this world are in fact being the 625 line system. Will he tell us misused. Some 50 Per cent. of them. what his government did in 13 years?" This is not isolated to a few ships Here comes the political cant—Mr around Britain. This is every country Bryan, "One of the things we did was in Europe by the signatory themselves to introduce Independent Television of the very convention the member in Would the Postmaster-General like to charge has made reference to. Isn't it tell us what he thinks the present a strange reflection that this great licence fee would be if the same amount weight of legislation against some few of television were provided by yet ships around Britain broadcasting fairly another HAIG?" The Postmaster- innocent "pop" music, but no mention General: "The hon. gentleman says the is made of the "Voice of America" doing last rrovernarient increased listener/ just this thing from a ship off Cyprus, viewer choice by one service, we are pushing propaganda into Europe — no increasing it by three services, after mention is made of this. Why? My only a few months in office." We are hon. member has said we are little increasing it by three services, in fact brother talking to big brother, but here what are they? Radio 247 which is rate- is big dog talking to bigger dog. Where borne local broadcasts, the sites of which is the principle? It is not involved.. have not even been announced. "We Safety at sea—I can quote you from the are," he said. Local radio refers to the debate where in the case of some 700 same thing. Giving colour to all three complaints not one of them could be television services, this hasn't happened laid at the feet of the pirate. That is yet, and going to the 625 system, this in the debate. So what really do we hasn't happened yet. So the one thing come down to and what were they talk-' they are doing is attempting to shoot ing about in Westminster? It comes the pirates. In other words, gentlemen, out quite clearly that they were talking; what I am trying to say to you is this— political cant in fact, but more. this became a political battle with little important they were talking of profit. interest in the principles involved. I motivation. It is apparent that to the: have already said the three main head- government in power if anybody has ings that were found to base this case • anything to do with profit it must be. on can all be discounted. The wrong. It is very much like a mother. Conservative Government in this case shouting upstairs, "Johnny, whatever- moved the amendment that the pirates you are doing, stop it." Let me quote. in as many words should stay until one little section towards the end of Mr ,there was such an alternative service. Short, the Postmaster-General's speech' This strengthens the argument of my —Mr Bryan rose and said—"Let him . hon. friend from Ramsey when he says have his experiment, but let him not why not leave our particular ship, our rig it in favour of the B.B.C. Let it. particular interest alone at this stage. be an honest trial of all the May I say, Mr Speaker, that in enjoy- possibi.:ities. Let him be big enough to ing the speech of the hon. member for face the possibility he may be wrong"— East Douglas and in entirely agreeing he is referring to the Postmaster-General with his sentiments, in supporting a —"then let him sink his kill-joy preju- reasonable marriage which my board dices and have the courage to accept the' suggested many moons ago, and which result." The Postmaster-General - we, sir, reiterated on strike, may I "Will the hon. member answer my pay the tribute to what our own station, question? We are starting Radio 247 if we may term it that, did during those

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. 764 HOUSE OF KEYS. MARCH 7, 1967

troublesome times, and are doing in the Mr Vereker: iMr Speaker, sir, I feel direct interests of tourism at this very that this Bill before us this morning moment. I see nothing peculiar in the means more to the Manx nation than dual set-up of Manx Radio-Radio jusl, enforc:ng Imperial legislation Caroline. One giving what is referred within our own domestic limits. It bears to as the homely local broadcast, the out, as other hon. members have stated finding 01 lost eats, etc., and the other this morning, once again exactly how projecting the image of this Island independent are we in our own domestic throughout Britain. I think our affairs. I feel myself that this legis- friends in Westminster will be well lation brought before us this morn- advised to take notice of a reasoned ing is a complete and utter waste case from this Island and not hide their heads in the sand on this issue. of Lime. it is very apparrent that whether we throw this Bill out this Mr Anderson: Mr Speaker, very morning or not. legislation will, still be briefly, I do not intend covering any of enforced by the Imperial Government the ground already covered, but mainly oy Order in Council. My own immediate to cortline my remarks to the publicity reaction on reading the Bill and also the angle. I feel that as far as Lhe B.B.C. has excellent report by Radio Caroline is been concerned, much of the publicity chat the United. Kingdom is bent on that we have received over the past few eradication of the so-called pirate years has been of Douglas promenade .talions, entirely to suit their own ends, in the rain when there has been nobody Dy setting up their own controlled in sight. This has been typical of the stations, and that is a monopoly -of Birt of treatment we have received. I 3.BC. and G.P.O. Why not bring Radio feel that at the moment and throughout Caroline ashore? Why not allow them to the past few years we have received come ashore and use their already vast vary admirable .publicity from Radio experience in the expansion of local Caroline as well in a smaller way from broadcasting stations and even the set- Manx Radio. I have a daughter at school ting up of a long-range radio station in North Wales and just a week ago she base for the Isle of Man, and England if mentioned how much she was hearing necessary, and sanctioned by the I.T.U.? the advertising of the Isle of Man from This Bill before us this morning is in OUT good friend the chairman of the effect sour grapes by the United Tourist Board's efforts, and especially Kingdom and the fuddy-duddy directors he mentioned Radio Caroline, and we of B.B.C. monopoly. Merely because a.!: hear so much about the Isle of Man they have not got control of go-ahead in this way. I feel that if we were to far-seeing radio concerns which are run pass this Bill, it may be, as it has been by young people and demanded and pointed out, brought into force in spite listened to by a vast majority of young of us, I believe that if we were to pass people in the whole of the United this Bill we would be doing a gross dis- Kingdom. The authorities, having service to tourism in the Isle of Man. granted Manx Radio, wish to stop I am sure that we are entitled, and it is further expansion in this Island unless our duty to reject it this morning. Now it is under a monopoly of the B.B.C. I have no further remarks to make, only Whilst I personally agree with legal that I support wholeheartedly what the control of broadcasting and other hon. member for East Douglas and concerns. I feel myself that we should others have said on the subject and I show the United Kingdom and the have great pleasure in being amongst Imperial_ Government that they do not the rebels this morning once again. control Manx affairs, and we should,

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. HOUSE OF KEYS, MAROH 7, 1967 765 regardless of the threatened Order in at least one mile, sunset to sunrise, does Council, show our ,protest and our not contravene any part of the Merchant particular desire for domestic indepen- Shipping Act. The only people that we dence by throwing this Bill out. are going to legislate against are the shopkeepers of Ramsey. If we are going Mr MacLeod: Mr Speaker, I propose to prosecute anybody — which includes that the vote be now taken. the Lord Bishop. if he wishes to send a sermon out for broadcast—these are the The Speaker: I don't feel that members people we are going to ;legislate against have been fully afforded the opportunity our own .people. I feel that we are to voice their opinions on the Bill yet. g-aing to be thwarted here. Although there is no doubt it may come as an Mr Moore: Mr Speaker, I beg to Order in 1Council. But if I was in the oppose this Bill on certain personal position of Caroline I could solve this grounds as well. Being a seafaring man problem of international rezulations all my ;Life, I object to the principle of very easily. I would run a fast ship from people doing away with any type of ship the Republic of Ireland with water and outside of territorial waters. I think the provis:ons, and keep this ship in its last time this occurred—we may have a present position. repetition in the future — was when Mr Kelly: They are getting ready for Admiral Elliot and Adthiral Thurog the that now, evidently. French Admiral, had a battle which lasted from Jurby Head up to Ramsey Mr Moore: But the proper way to bay, and I hope this won't happen today. I:-ckle this problem is for the hon. While realising that the Home Office members of Ramsey to advocate very distinguishes the essential features of s'.rongly for the ship to be brought into the Island's constitutional' relationship Ramsey haribour- with the United Kingdom is Mr Kelly: We tried that before. susceptible of further change and states these essential features as follows. Mr Moore: I think Ramsey has more Paragraph 17 of its imernorandum—"The to lose than any other part of the Island Isle of Man is a dependency of the with regards to Caroline. The fact is that Crown. The United Kingdom Govern- the younger generation feel that ment is ultimately responsible for the Caroline is offering a better service, and good government of the Island. and 1 think whether we are square or not. controls its international relations and we must agree that this is so. But the external defence. The Parliament of fact remains that 2&3 members of the Westminster has power to legis' ate for House of Commons voted against this the Island, and insular legislation Bill. We don't know what is going to requires the assent of Her Majesty in happen at the next reading, or what Council." There can be little doubt that amendments may occur, but we do know this is the position today. The question that the Labour Government in England is now, who are the people that we are _s quite concerned that if they extend going to legislate against? Under the voting Dower, and that is under the maritime law when the boundaries were Representation of the People Act to extended from the three-mile limits, this inciude. .neople of 18 years of age in Act was brought forward for one England, they are afraid if this Bill purpose only and that was with regard oasses that possibly the government to fishing .rights in territorial waters of could be removed from power in different countries. Therefore any vessel England. I would say today let us throw outside these limits as lono as she this out and accept the consequences exhibits proper anchor lights, visible for from the English Government.

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Mr Devereau: Mr Sneaker, sir. I am will be the same if the British Govern- delighted at the tone this debate has ment passes their Bill. Now we have taken this morning. I feel that it is introduced our own Bill we must be perfectly evident that this hon. House is careful what we do. We know that under not about to "rubber stamp" legislation existing afreements, the United King- as it has done so often in the past. We dom Government is quite within their are here to decide what is the best for eights to extend their Act to us by our people and to legislate to that end. Order in Council. Now some members Whether we accept legislation from the are saying that they not vote for United Kingdom Government or not. I this Bill unless we ,get a powerful Manx think is very important. In this case the radio station. To my mind these two United Kingdom Act does not declare mattsrs are separate and distinct and we are in no position to bargain like the action of the so-called pirate ships as this. If we are going to support illegal, but as the hon. member for South unauthorised off-shore broadcasting Douglas has already said, it is intended stations we are in my opinion going to to prosecute and make into law-breakers weaken our bargaining powers. My those of our own people. Great feelings colleague Mr Devereau has referred to were aroused during the week-end when our approach to the LT.U, and the affect the local newspapers made certain it Might have on them if we are going pronouncements and I think most to support unauthorised stations against rasmbers of this hon. House were the declared expressions of views from prepared to retaliate, and I think that members of that body. Now Sir Henry the Possibility that the mover of this Sugden says let us keep our Radio Bill has sustgested that the European Caroline and then suggests we discharge Telecommunications Union would be this Bill and introduce .another to pleased to welcome the Isle of Man as legalise Radio Caroline. Mr Vereker a full member might have some suggests that we bring Caroline possibility and some merit, if that could ashore, but we have already given be brought about. Whether the rejection exclusive rights to Manx Radio to broad- of this Bill will delay and hamper that cast within this Island so we can't bring entry is maybe a possible thought for Caroline ashore and we cannot intro- members, .but of course if this Bill is duce a Bill to legalise Caroline, so long rejected—and I say now I am going to as we have got this agreement with vote against it—if this Bill is rejected Manx Radio. If we want to have a head- the European Telecommunications Union on collision with the British Government might then look very dimly on our — I am not adverse to having a fight efforts to join their union. By the same with big brother or any other brother. token I don't think we can do anything but then let us have it on behalf of an else this morning but show that we are authorised broadcasting station—Manx of one mind and vote against this Bill. Radio—to whom as I have said before, I think even the mover of this Bill had we have given exclusive right to broad- his tongue in his teeth when he was cast. Let us tell them to turn up their moving it, and I wouldn't be a bit power and broadcast to the world, for surprised to see him vote against it after all our main grouse is that the British Government have placed limita- Kneale: Mr Speaker, I have not tions on our own station, and again I say got my tongue in my cheek and I am I don't mind having a fight on this issue. supporting this Bill. As has been said But before we get into such a fight let time and time again, whether we pass us fully consider the repercussions. The this Bill, whether we reject it or whether Broadcasting Commission have carefully we leave it lying on the table, the result considered this Bill and have agreed to

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, .1967 767 support the Bill, they can only support respect, and that in itself is another very author:sed stations and they have also good reason why we should say no this agreed to the approach being made to morning. But the very fact that I am I.T.U. to see if we can not get into that saying no is simply from the bargaining body on our awn rights as a member. I point of view that something is going to intend to support the Bill. happen, no matter what the something w..11. be, some good will come out of this Mr Kelly: Mr Speaker, there is one rejection. Last week in the Tynwald thing this morning I am delighted with Court we appointed a committee, and a really, and I am almost bursting at the committee with very very strong terms seams to find a united front, with the of reference as far as the independence exception of possibly one or two. This is of the Isle of Man was concerned, and the spirit the Manx people are supposed this will be another means of pinpoint- to be made of and it gives me—well I ing or spearheading our attack which is am not mentioning any names but there bound to be made by this committee is one I am sorry for and that is the when they Pet into action. As I said at hon. member for Peel who has had the the oetset, I am delighted, I can hardly unpleasant task of having to put this find words to express myself because it Bill before the House. I am sure he feels is a long long time, al? the time I have in his own heart that he wou.:cl love to been in this House, to see and. to feel the be on this winning side this morning. Mr expressions bubbling in every one of us Speaker, when Radio Caroline came into with regard to the opposition of this Ramsey bay the first week, I had the particular Bill. I am delighted the House opportunity of meeting the off-shore is going to see what comes, In the words men, the shipping people, who were of the hon. member for East Douglas— looking afIer the handling of the ship- I am so delighted he led this attack this ping side, as against the electronic part morning—we will see what is going to of it, and I had the assurance from the come out of it. I think some very good Attorney-General at the time—"You can will come out of it in the end. bring this ship into the Queen's Pier The Speaker: Hon. members, I did and victual it from the pier, so long as indicate that I wished to adjourn at the electronic part is all turned off there 12-15 pm. However, after an interesting is nothing to prevent the ship from debate I fee: sure that the House would coming into the harbour." But these wish to reach a conclusion on the second people had legal advice from the reading of this Bill before adjournment, Continent and said that they were not and as w1 judge it at the moment, this is going to come to the pier, sa they had likely to happen within the next to have these small ships to victual the quarter-of-an-hour or so. Would you be ship as it is today. Mr Speaker, one prepared to continue? thing I am sorry for is that this Bill, in the first place, was placed before the It was agreed. branches before it came before West- The Speaker: Does any other hon, minster. That is the most unfortunate member wish to speak? Then I will ask part. The other unfortunate part now as the hon. member for Peel to reply. it happens is as the hon. member for South Douglas has rightly pointed out, Mr MacDonald: Mr Speaker, I must the substantial vote against the Bill in admit having listened to all my the Commons. The very fact also pointed colleagues talking today. I am in a out by my hon. colleague, which I must rather awkward position. However, the confess I wasn't aware of, that the main reason I find myself in this clauses hadn't been dealt with, I hadn't position is that I really don't know on had an intimate connection in that whose behalf I am introducing the Bill.

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Mr Quayle: The Attorney-General. ing Offences Bill, or are we discussing the fact that the British Government Mr MacDonald: As we know we have wish to impose upon us something no parties, we have no groups, we have which they have thought up? The Bill no organisations that work together itself is designed for one purpose, and continuously, and I did find it very that is to remove the so-called pirate difficult. However, I am a member of stations from the area of the British the Broadcasting Commission, on which Isles. I know the hon. member, Mir only two members of this House sit, the Quayle, did say if they wanted to go other members are from outside the ahead with it why didn't they send out hon. House and they have carefully con- a gun-boat and go and do it. Well as sidered this Bill. I must accept their you know the British Government today view that in the interests of radio don't send gun-boats out anywhere. In generally, and especially in the fact they can never make their minds interests of 'Manx Radio, it is important up whether to do it or not, when they that we do in fact, as a commission, can find them. It would be quite illegal accept this Bill. I said from the very for them to do this, mark you, they are beginning that I am unfortunate not in any legal position to send a gun- because my own views, my own personal boat out. I know they do other things, views on this, I would throw it out but they would be quite illegal if they without even looking at it. Those are attempted to tow it away. There is my personal opinions. I entirely agree nothing really under international law, with Mr Irving on this, that here is the or any other law which is illegal— very thing I have been saying for a tong time, if we are going to have a Mr Irving: Tear the Bill up, Roy, you clash with the British Government, let have done your best. us have it. 1 am not afraid of standing up any time to this clash. However, I Mr MacDonald: Mr Speaker, I must would rather see us do this on behalf answer a few of the points raised. Mr of our own local station than on behalf Quayle went on and suggested a of a station which is at the moment not marriage—I presume he means Caroline under our jurisdiction. Now, Mr and Manx Radio. I would like to see Irving, in his remarks he did mention this to a certain extent myself, if it did the De-emste.r's amendment, I mentioned give Manx Radio a greater power and that myself. -1 will try to be as fast as coverage over a greater area. How- I can, Mr Speaker. I know the Strike ever, as the House knows I think. we Emergency Committee did acknowledge have an agreement with Manx Radio. It the good work done by Caroline during is an exclusive agreement—at least I the strike. Unfortunately our own little thought it was—as far• as broadcasting station couldn't do that. He went on to is concerned it still is. I found other state—that if we are threatened by an things have come in which doubt the Order in Council, well let them legislate exclusively of what the Manx Govern- and be damned—I have a lot of ment have agreed to. But I think this •sympathy for this point of view but not would be a possibility, I don't know, It entirely in respect of Manx Radio, and may be that we could get the support this particular Bill. The hon. member from ether countries for our own high- for Rushen gets the constitutional powered station. I do admit, I frankly problem, of course, entirely mixed up admit that all the members of the with this Bill, and this I feel, Mr I.T.U. don't agree with the convention. Speaker, is the tendency throughout All sorts of. odd bodies are running every member's mind—are we in fact stations throughout Europe. I see discussing the Marine. etc.., Broadcast- Liechtenstein has one and Andora has

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged, HOUSE OF KEYS, MARCH 7, 1967 769

one, everybody wants one. Those that fuel oil, it couldn't hinder lots of things, can't join do it regardless of what but it definitely would stop the happens. Mr Vereker, the hon. advertising and that is the aim of the member for Castletown, said that the exercise. Radio Caroline would not sit whole thing is a waste of time—perhaps out at sea if it couldn't broadcast if it is a waste of time but I think it is someone was going to pay them to do good for us to discuss this. It is good it. I think that is quite logical. They for the people of the Island to know are not going to run a station for the how we think, and what we think. For benefit of mankind. They are in fact that reason alone I think it is quite a commercial company. I think, Mr proper for the commission to bring the Speaker, I have said enough. It is quite Bill before this House, because it is in obvious that, apart from the Broadcast- this House that the decision should• be ing Commission, the majority of the made, not somewher else. My hon. friend House seem to feel that big brother has — I was going o say Albert RN.—the been waving the wand too often, and hon. member Mr Moore, he did mention I will close on that. I beg to move the territorial water rights. I don't think second reading of the Bill. really that the territorial rights were for fishing exclusively. I believe that the Mr Kneale: Mr Speaker, just on a original intention was — our hon. and point of correction there. Mr gallant member here will probably MacDonald, the hon. mover, said that it support me in this you put your was right for the Broadcasting Com- limits far enough from your Land to mission to bring this forward. I think stop an enemy bombarding your coast- we should make it quite clear that the line. Broadcasting Commission did not bring this forward. This Bill was prepared Mr Spittall: Correct. on orders from Executive Council. Mr MacDonald: I accept that. Mr MacDonald: I think that is why this was brought in. Caroline is not The Speaker: The question before the bombarding us — she may be with House, hon. members, is that the sound, of course. He also said: "The Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences ship should be fed from a foreign port." Isle of Man Bill, 1967, be now read a This is not the problem, Mr Speaker second time. Those in favour please and members, this is not the problem. say aye, against no. Feeding is quite simple, in fact I believe and I think this is correct, they do in A division was called for and voting fact get the majority of their stores resulted as follows:— from Holland now by ship. They get fresh supplies from Ramsey, but the For: Messrs MacDonald, Kneale and bulk- of their supplies does come from Corkish-3. Holland, they are brought on another Against: Miss Thornton-Duesbery, ship and transferred at sea. Messrs Anderson, MacLeod, Crowe, Kerruish, Radcliffe, Spittall, Quayle. Mr Moore: And water. Faragher, Simcocks, Crellin, Vereker, Moore, Irving, Burke, Mr MacDonald: And water from Devereau, Kelly, Sir Henry Ramsey. But the problem is really— Sugden and the Speaker-19. who advertises on the station? This Bill is not designed really to — it The Speaker: The Bill fails on its couldn't hinder the feeding of the crew, second reading. 19 votes being cast it couldn't hinder the supplying of the against and three votes being cast in

Marine, etc., Broadcasting Offences (Isle of Man) Bill—Discharged. 770 HOUSE OF KEYS. MARCH 7, 1967 favour of the measure. I think hon. The Speaker: I think as the House members this is a suitable time to has to agree to the withdrawal of a adjourn and the House will stand resolution which has been notified in adjourned until Tuesday next at 11 a.m. this way, I think the hon._ member should perhaps explain.

MOTION RE STANDING ORDERS Mr Devereau: The notice of motion, —MR DEVER.EAU sir, as it was propounded, might require 16 votes. Mr Devereau: Mr Speaker, may I beg leave, sir, to• withdraw the motion Mr MacLeod: Not might — it will standing in my name which appears require 16 votes. later on the agenda. Also to give notice that at the next meeting of the Mr Devereau: I am proposing, sir, an House of Keys J will move an alteration alteration in the motion which, Mr to Standing Order 55 and will hand a Speaker, I hope you will agree will not copy of the proposed alteration to the require 16 votes. Secretary of the House. The reason, sir, for this is that there is a certain The Speaker: It will be a matter, sir, alteration in the words in the proposed that only the Speaker can decide on motion. receiving your resolution. Do hon. members agree to the withdrawal? The Speaker: Is the House prepared to agree? It was agreed. Mr MacLeod: No. The Speaker: Now the House will Sir Henry Sugden: Mr Speaker, I stand adjourned until 11 a.m., Tuesday would like an explanation. next, 14th March.

Motion re Standing Orders—Mr Devereau.