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CORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 606-vii HOUSE OF COMMONS HOUSE OF LORDS ORAL EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE PARLIAMENTARY COMMISSION ON BANKING STANDARDS BANKING STANDARDS WEDNESDAY 31 OCTOBER 2012 MARTIN TAYLOR Evidence heard in Public Questions 355 - 448 USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT 1. This is a corrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee, and copies have been made available by the Vote Office for the use of Members and others. 2. The transcript is an approved formal record of these proceedings. It will be printed in due course. 1 Oral Evidence Taken before the Joint Committee on Wednesday 31 October 2012 Members present: Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chair) The Lord Bishop of Durham Mark Garnier Baroness Kramer Lord Lawson of Blaby Mr Andrew Love Mr Pat McFadden John Thurso Lord Turnbull Examination of Witness Witness: Martin Taylor, Chairman of Syngenta and former member of the Independent Commission on Banking, gave evidence. Q355 Chair: What you lack in numbers behind you is made up for in quality; I note that the head of the Treasury Bill team is sitting behind you. I hope that no notes get passed. Thank you very much for coming. You have thought about these issues very deeply—as deeply as almost anybody—and you did so on the basis of very extensive personal experience in a major bank. May I begin by asking you what contribution, if any, you think that structural reform—whether a ring fence or full separation—can make to improving standards in banking, which is at the heart of this Commission’s work? Martin Taylor: I will start with the ring fence, since it forms the basis of our recommendations and also the Bill. Chair: One or two Members are asking if you could speak up. Martin Taylor: Yes, of course. There are two principal points about the ring fence. One of them is that it would help in resolution, in a crisis, allowing the authorities to protect the ring-fenced bank and let the rest go, theoretically at least. I do not think that would help with banking standards, but the second point certainly would, which is that the ring fence is intended to undermine the extension of the implicit Government guarantee to the whole banking organisation—that is, to allow the investment bank, as has been the case in the past, to raise money on the faith and credit, effectively, of the retail organisation. It is our belief that installing the ring fence will prevent this from happening. If that is successful—and I believe it would be—you will prevent the investment bank from doing certain kinds of business that it was able to do in the pre-crisis years. I regard that as a big contribution to standards. 2 Q356 Chair: How will that alter the way banks sell products to retail customers? Martin Taylor: The way that banks sell products to retail customers is an issue that the Vickers Commission did not really consider, except in trying to make sure that there was enough competition in the market. It is a very troublesome issue. We have got ourselves in the wrong place, in the way banks sell products to retail customers. A lot of people in the industry recognise that. I was thinking this morning, coming in, how difficult it is for retail customers—including, by the way, what the industry calls high-net-worth retail customers— to get genuinely disinterested advice. It is astonishing really, because one would suppose that there is an enormous demand for it. The purchases of major investment products, insurance products and mortgages—the big things that people do in their financial lives—are enormously important to them. They are not products that should be pushed, and certainly not products that should be sold against the interests of the customer. Q357 Chair: Are they going to be better protected if we have a ring fence? In particular, do you set any store by the view that traditional banking, as it is often described, was infected by investment banking at a certain point, thereby changing the culture of retail banks for the worse by moving towards a more transaction-based approach? Martin Taylor: I have just been reading the paper that Alan Budd submitted to this Commission describing the ecosystem as it was at the end of the 1980s, and I certainly recognise the world that he describes; the cultures of the old clearing banks and investment banks were indeed very different. Has there been contamination? Q358 Chair: That is more or less what he is saying. Martin Taylor: I am not sure that he is. He is saying that these things are very different, and this was 20 years ago. He says, “Things have changed since then.” One of the big changes that have taken place in the past 10 years is that these organisations are now—or were until very recently, in the case of Barclays—all run by investment bankers. That is a big change; it was not the case in the 1980s or 1990s. I suppose that was done because boards had so much risk on the table in the investment bank, which they imperfectly understood, that they put someone in place who they knew could manage it, or at least understand what was going on. The pushing of the sales culture in retail banks has obviously been growing. I do not know whether you can blame the investment bank co-location for that. It seems to me to have at least as much to do with the free-in-credit current account. Because the banks are, under the present interest rate circumstances, forced to make a loss on their bread-and-butter products, they get the money back somewhere else. Q359 Chair: We are not asking whether it was the only factor—we are already confident that there were many factors—but we are asking whether it made a contribution. Martin Taylor: Maybe. Q360 Chair: If so, and if you put a ring fence in, is it going to contribute to dealing with the problem? Martin Taylor: If you put a ring fence in, or if you did a complete split, you would have a board that was responsible for the retail operations, and one could suppose that there might be an attempt to build a distinctive retail culture, which has been rather obliterated in some places. 3 Q361 Chair: Banks appear to have somewhat grudgingly accepted that a ring fence is going to be imposed. Do you think the right incentives are in place for them to ensure that this works in the long term? Do you think there is a case for putting on the statute book, on a contingency basis, at least implicit scope for full separation, and putting that in the hands of the regulators, perhaps with some political checks and oversight before it could be triggered, to ensure that banks do not engage in a war of attrition? Martin Taylor: For me, there are a number of disadvantages in having a full split rather than a ring fence. The main reason why I would support a full split was if I thought a ring fence was unworkable. I do not think that—I think a ring fence is a superior solution—but if a ring fence were put in place and proved to be unworkable because of attrition, as you call it, there would be a case for going further, but I do not start from that. Distinguished people who have given evidence to this Commission have pointed out to you that a ring fence could be permeable. It is certainly true that there might be an awful lot of people out there who have an interest in making a ring fence permeable. Equally, if you give the regulators the powers that, as I understand it, the draft Bill foresees that they should have, and if you give the board of the ring-fenced body the duties that it is foreseen they should have, I think you have some pretty strong defences in place. Fences need keeping up; whether it is a garden fence or a ring fence, they need work. Q362 Chair: Are you confident that we have this fence at the right height? Martin Taylor: A lot of thought went into the Commission’s1 work. I was looking at the book this morning. There is a list of detailed stipulations on page 73 of the final report, which I draw to the Commission’s2 attention. They are, in particular, intended to prevent the investment bank—the non-ring-fenced organisation—from improperly leveraging itself on the back of the ring-fenced bank’s assets. Let us remember, too, of course, that we are not recommending a ring-fenced bank in isolation. The whole world is moving towards much tighter capital standards, thank goodness, so they will also be in place—both inside and outside the fence. Q363 The Lord Bishop of Durham: It was not in the remit of the independent Commission—the Vickers Commission—to look at banking standards or conduct, but if it had been in your remit, do you think that it would have altered any of your conclusions, particularly around the ring fence, but also more generally? Martin Taylor: We should have wanted at least another year if we had looked at banking standards. Q364 The Lord Bishop of Durham: That does not encourage us.