• 1 N T E R V I' E W •

by Jose Arroyo

Cinema Canada: Could you tell, me a l 'ttle bit about your background. ~tom Egoyan: I moved with my famil y to Canada from Egypt. I was three. We settled in Victoria and I stayed there until the age of 18 w hen I came to study at the Cniversity of Toronto. I've been here ever since. I started making short films at the L'ni· versity. I wasn't studying filmmaking. I was studying International Relations but there was a film club and I became Yery interested immediately. It just seemed a logical extension of my interest in thea· tre and I made a number of short films while I was there. My last film at L' of T was Open House. By the time I left school I decided I wanted to commit myself to drama. I was still very interested in playwrighting at that point. I was inyited to join The Playwright's Cnion at the Tarragon thea, tre and I worked on a play there. I also started work on the script of Next of Kin. my first feature. It was then that I decided to de\'ote myself to film and it really is an act of dey ~ ti o n . It's been dif, ficult to raise money.

Cinema Canada: \Vby u'ere )'ou study, ing Internatiollal Relations,' Atom Egoyan: I think sometimes it's a bit of a mistake to go right into film school because YOU tend to limit your· self. !'\'e ai>',aYs been \'ery interest'ed in politics and p~litical s tru ~tur es, political decision' making, and it ",'as something that I was genuinely yery interested in. I continue to be Yery interested in that process. 'Though it's not necessarily reo fle cted in the type of films I make, it's something ""hich I really ",'anted to ex· pand my kno""ledge of. I ",'anted a firm The Alienated Affections understanding of the ,,'ay political eyencs around the ",'arid work. I think it's a \'ery important thing. ~Iany people tend to just be satisfied ""ith a yery sup' erficial yie",·. I ",'as really \'ery honest in my reasons for taking that course of study. It's just of AtomEgoyan that, as my time in the uniyersity deyel· oped, I r~a li ze d that that wasn't ",'hat I wanted to do professionally. ttawa in june is pretty but dull. No reason to go To briefly summarize the plots, Open House is a half­ there then except the trip was free and there was Cinema Canada: H OII' did ),our/allliZr hour drama about the roundabout way a son, ll'l.JO can't react to y our goillg illto fi/IIl .' O the possibility 0/ dinner u'ith new friends. The oj- communicate with his/ather, tries to make tbe/ather/eel Atom Egoyan: :'Ily parents ",'ere both /icial reason, the one Ihat paid Ibe bill, was to attend the good - he pretends to sell the house bis /atber built, Pros. ori ginally trained as artists, as painters. Summer Screen Institute's premiere oj Atom Egoyan's pectilJe buyers come 10 see it and praise it. Tbe son records and at a certain point in their careers Family Viewing. Dinner was /Ull. Tbe /illn ll'as a revela­ the praise and plays it to his/ather as an e.\pression 0/101 'e. they decided to put that aside and to go tion. jean Oser, who has u;orked with Pabst and Renoir Next oj Kin is about Peter, an alienated young W'.. -l5P into bUSiness. So they were al",'ays yery (and who should know) thought it brilliant. Nice /01' a who, along witb his /al11iZJ'. is undergoing tberapy. Tbeir man in his mid- 70s and one in his mid-20s to agree. It's psychiatrist tapes tbe session so his patients call study wary of my interest in pursuing an artis, that kind 0/film. themsell'es later. In tbe sbrink's office, Peter comes across tic career. They ""ere neyer particularly encouraging of it. They realized how dif, I knew Egoyan had done other/ilms but I wasn't /amil­ a tape 0/an etbnic famiZJ ', Tbe paren ts ca n't COlli m u nicate ficult it is. that it's something that can be iar with them. A/tel' the pleasure 0/ seeing Family View­ witb their daughter either but have tbe added attraction 0/ wry painful. So they were a bit hesitant ing, my first reaction was anger. I was anglJ' because I being voluble and baving a long· lost SOI1. Peter decides to hadn't made an effort to see Next ojKin, Egoyan's/irst/ea­ play sbrink alld pretend tbat he's the son. about giYing me encouragement ",'hen I lure, the lew times it u..'as shown in Montreal. Angry' also Family Viewing is reviewed on p. 3- was younger. at tbe reali::ation tbat m) viewing choices are too often After seeing the films I resolved to meet tbe director. Tbe They \yere conseryatiye in the sense conveniently self-restricted to wbat's playing a: Cineplex. following was my introduction to ,{tom Egoyall. that they always felt. 'well it's good to And pissed off that Cineplex hadn't made my mewing ple­ continue doing your art but You should asure convenient. I resolved to see the films. also do something else to suppOrt your, self. ' Which SO li/Ids \'ery gOOd. But of course. you realize that you ha\'e to

14 / Cinema Canada - October 1987 • INTERVIEW •

commit yourself to it totally. It's not Kin, which was to be my next film. Now something you can pursue part-time. I that took a lot longer to get funding for. think that there are some individuals I tried again to go through the arts coun­ that are perhaps endowed with much cil jury system, but of course it's quite greater intellectual reserve, which al­ unpredictable because you can receive lows them to do two things at the sanle support from one jury and another jury time. But, really, for me, I find that I have might not like your work at all , which is to concentrate on what I'm doing. what basically happened to me for two years. I finally received a small grant Cinema Canada: Did ),ourfamiZl' im­ from Canada Council. migrate here or ll 'ere tbey refugees' Next of Kin was made for a shooting Atom Egoyan: My parents left Egypt at budget of 525,000 and then we received a time when Arab nationalism was get­ a completion grant from the Ontario 5 ting to a peak ,yith Nasser. The\' felt that, Arts Council. The film was made for a 3: as Armenians, it ,yasn't a particularly total budget of about 537,000. It was~ good time to stay in Egypt. ll1ere " 'as a something that was much easier to dog large wave of Armenian immigration out then than it would be now. It was 198 4. ~ of Egypt at that time - to Canada espe­ The industry was not in the boom that it S cially. To say they " 'ere political re­ is right now. People were available and i! fugees suggests that there was a crisis as equ~ment was available fur a much~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~- opposed to a perceived crisis. I think it more reasonable rate than it might be was definitely a case of the latter and it now. And I was very privileged to be able ended up being quite justified, of course, to work with the calibre of people that I though to call them political refugees had on that ftim. would probably be extreme. In fact, they didn't claim political refugee status Cinema Canada: You've worked with when they arrived in the country. pretty much the same people in your tbree films. [ keep seeing the same Cinema Canada: How did ),011 start making films? How did you get fund­ names cropping up on the credits. ing and bow did you r different films de­ Atom Egoyan: Yes. Peter Mettler, velop? Bruce MacDonald, Arsinee Khanjian, Atom Egoyan: When I was at U of T Camelia Freiberg... there was an institution there called the Hart House Film Board which was in­ Cinema Canada: How about Family strumental in starting my career. They Viewing? How did that get financed? had 16mm equipment and they also gave Atom Egoyan: Family Viewing was an out small grants. It was like a dream odd ftlm. I had a very clear vision of how come true. This was how I made my flfSt I wanted to make it and all my instincts mm my flfSt year of university. That was told me that this would not be a particu­ a 14- minute short called However. I larly commercial approach. The di­ submitted it to the CNE film festival at lemma for me became that here I had a the time and it won the prize. flfSt feature which was quite successful. I was able to make my second film I had received a lot of encouragement, with the prize money. This is how I built quite a bit of attention. It had been up my body of short ftlms w hich I made purchased by the CBC and the next log­ ical step would have been to make a while I was at university. Now I had the • Expressive movement for Peter Mettler's camera advantage in my flfSt year of applying for more commercial film. I didn't do that. an Ontario Arts Council grant. Csually I wrote a script which I think film students aren't eligible but I was perplexed many people. I wanted to do the Arts Council and Telefilm and be­ to maintain total control over the film . studying in an unrelated field and I re­ it in a style which was very different and cause they had used Next of Kin as an For Family Viewing it was absolutely ceived the grant and made Open so the question became how do you example of the type of project that they paramount that I ha\'e total control - House. It was my biggest budgeted film fund that. Again I felt it would make wanted to get involved with. e\'en at the rough cut stage, when I until then and it cost S 10 ,000 to make more sense to apply to the arts councils I gave them the script for the new film showed the film to people, it wasn't re­ this half-hour fIlm. because of the nature of the project, be­ and they were very encouraging right ally connecting. They didn't know " 'hat cause of the way I wanted to do it. And from the very beginning. Especially Bill was going on. The film only came to­ Cinema Canada: Was that broadcast the Arts Council was very encouraging. House, he immediately had a sense of gether when the sound was in and it was on the CBC? But that limited me to a very low budget. what it was that I wanted to do with the all completed - even though it was very Atom Egoyan: Yes, in Canadian Reflec­ script. They extended a loan and on the clear in my mind what I wanted from the tions., Again that was an incredible in­ Cinema Canada: You didn't apply to basis of that loan I was able to do certain very beginning. centive for me. That sale was very im­ Telefilrn? things which I wouldn't have been able It wasn't a film that follows a formula portant symbolically. This is the first Atom Egoyan: No, I didn't apply to to do otherwise: we used professional in any way and, for that reason, I was profeSSional step many members of the Teleftim very specifically because I actors, we were able to go ACTRA, and I very protective. Also it isn't a film which independent fIlmmaking community knew it wasn't the type of project that was able to pay my crew a decent rate. opens up to an audience. There's no nar­ have made in this country - a sale to would interest them. I didn't want to get Now the way I structure my films in rator. No one's saying, 'let me lead you Rena Krewagna's Canadian Reflections, involved with the headache of having to terms of budget, something which I'm through this.' And it demands a lot from a program which incidentally is being tailor the script and the production to now trying to decide whether I'll do for an audience. There's no question of that. threatened right now, a very incom­ what they need. the next ftim ... When you go to OFDC That's what I'm particularly proud of prehensible move by the CBC to one of you have to show them a certain amount having done. the few sanctions that they make to the Cinema Canada: And that's basically of private investment. What I did in that independent ftimmaking community. what it would have entailed? case is that I took my fees as a writer/di­ Cinema Canada: [ tbink it's /lef]' acces­ Anyhow that sale was very encourag­ Atom Egoyan: Yes. I think so and I don't rector/producer and editor, put them all sible tbough. The characters draw rou ing for me. For the first time in my life I regret not going to Teleftim. Now what together and totally deferred them. Of along. - realized that there was some correlation happened was that as I was almost ready course you can take the standard scale Atom Egoyan: Certainly the screening between doing these ftims and perhaps to shoot, the Ontario Film Development rates for each of those functions, add in Ottawa made that clear. That was a having a market for them. I saved the Corporation came into existence. That them all together, and it ends up being very exciting evening for me. This has money from that sale and I used that as was an ideal organization because it quite a large chunk. So that way, I was been a very long film . We finished it in the core of funding towards Next of seemed to be somewhere in between able to access the OFDC and still be able ' March and all we had were small screen-

October 1987 - Cinema Canada/15 • INTERVIEW •

ings for one or two, up to five people and be able to give that up. You have to be think that during the filmmaking it's par­ commercial film when you have an inde· it's very difficult to get a sense of how able to follow your instincts. You have to ticularly attractive. I mean, it is in a pendent structure. You are defeating the people are really reacting to it until you be able to commit yourself very passion­ romantic sense, certainly, but you purpose, right. You're given the advan­ show it to a large audience. The Ottawa ately at a very early age to something know ... That is usually not something tage of saying 'OK, do exactly as your in· screening was fabulous. I was just so ex­ that perhaps no one else understands. that filmmakers enjoy when they're stinct tells you to do it.' cited. I really felt there was an energy You 're faced with many obstacles. working at an editing bench at four And that's why these projects are there which was connecting with the Whether or not you actually find your o'clock in the morning with a scene that things that live with you, as opposed to film and that's so exciting. way through them and continue making they realize they should have shot an­ things which you've done to put on a re­ But it came quite a while after having films certainly gives you a sense of your other way because it just doesn't seem to sume and show on a reel to someone as completed the film and I was in real own perseverance. work and they don't have the money to a demonstration of technical expertise. I limbo for a long period. I went through As to talent, that's another question. go back, and everyone that they've don't know. That doesn't answer any a period of hating it, you know, and won­ There is nothing that is actually able to shown the film to hates it. particular question except... dering what I had done. Well, even tell you whether or not you have talent. though you say it's accessible, I still And I think when we begin to place too Cinema Canada: I'm just thinking of think ... For instance for the first 20 mi­ much trust in certain individuals or or­ lots of stories other filmmakers tell Cinema Canada: Well it kind of does. nutes you don't know what's going on, ganizations which tell us that we do or about being at the editing table at four You do live in a city that can provide a you don't know what the relationship that we don't, we are bound to be disap­ o'clock in the morning and not being lot of different kinds of work. Which is between these people are to each other, pointed or disillusioned at some pOint. able to edit it the way they want to. not the case for most filmmakers across and if you're not seduced by that very Atom Egoyan: Well, listen, I've been on the country. I think most ofthem arere­ giddy kind of energy that the film has ... if that side of it as well because I don't al(y dependent on the whims of who­ you're not seduced by the puzzle it pre­ Cinema Canada: Let's leave that aside make my li ving, yet anyhow, from my in­ ever is allocating the money. But I sents to you .. . a moment because I would just assume dependent films. I work as a freelance di­ would like just to get a sense of the that people who devote themselves rector and you forfeit control. That is blockages that you've had. Cinema Canada: But I was and I think wholeheartedly to making films will one of the givens of the profession. In Atom Egoyan: Well, I would say block­ audiences will be. In the opening scene just be sure that they have talent. Co uld that case you take on an entirely differ­ ages have been exposure. An indepen· -when the character switches the audi­ you specify what the obstacles for you ent mind-set. You see yourself as a dent filmmaker needs exposure. How do ence of! It's like ajolt. It'sfunny too. have been as an independent film ­ craftsperson being hired to perform a you get exposurei I mean it's a very dif­ Atom Egoyan: I'm glad you're seeing maker? particular function. ficult thing to ... I'll never forget. This is

:> ~

~~------~• Together and apart in Open House • Telecommunications angst in Family Viewing

the humour in it. When you show films Atom Egoyan: The loneliness. [ think Part of your role for the period oftime an amazing story. A friend of mine - ac­ to small groups of people, they usually it's an extremely lonely career. Lonely in that you're hired to do the film is com­ tually 'it was Bruce Macdonald. Bruce don't tend to laugh and this was some­ the sense that, though you are sur­ mitting yourself to it. Making it mean submitted a film called Let Me See to the thing I thought I had really missed the rounded by a community of people, ulti­ something to you. But one of the tricks Festival of Festivals and it didn't get in. so boat on. The humour in the film is very mately what makes an independent film about that is that once your contract we were all kind of wondering, 'well let'S particular. I mean it's a very odd sensibil­ exciting is that it's usually going to a ter­ ends, you ought to shed that emotion see. What should we do about this.' And ity. What was great about the large audi­ rain which perhaps has been unexplored and all of a sudden remove yourself, be­ I just had a film the previous year which ence is that you get people to lose them­ and you have to defend yourself, or de­ cause ultimately you don't have control didn't get in as well. [knew what he was selves much more easily to the conceit fend to yourself, a number of decisions over how it's going to end up looking. So going through. So we had this idea of. of the film and the tone of it. which may seem indefensible. You have that is the other end of it. 'well. OK if they are not going to show to put yourself through a process in The whole idea of commercial film­ it within the festival what we'll do is Cinema Canada: You have followed order to make a film which removes you making is that you delay the process of we'll rent a projector. we'll get a small the same route as many independent sometimes from people that you care decision-making until the last possible generator, we'll put on tuxes and we'll filmmakers. What problems didyou en­ about, that you love. That's one obstacle, moment. You provide coverage. You go to theunh'ersity theatre_ and project counter? the loneliness. provide different ways of interpreting the film on the sidewalk for one of the Atom Egoyan: The biggest problem, for the scene so that then you can mold ino .galas.' me, is being able to cope. . Or not being whatever feels good. . - able to ask yourself certain. questions Cinema Canada: ,That independent de- Now with independent fllmmaking '. CinemaCan$: I IJeard oj(bat: . which are fundamental human questions·· .. cision,-maizing is also what mostpeople not only do you .never think of relin­ .' Atoin' Egoy~: You go through the most such as ',Why am [ doing this" And would feel is the [u:xur), 6findependent · 'quishing thatbu( you honestly have to ridiculous gestures~n · order to secure 'Where will [be in a certain number of film »laking. · . ~' . . .. ,". '. ~' .~e able to commit yourSelf to it for years some sort of attention and. rou know. all . years?' There is absolutely no answer to Atom Egoyan: Perhaps. But[ don't perhaps. The most exciting thing about . of this hasn:~ ' little to do with ,,-h\' ,,-e' these questions. And thisis justa sample think it's it lUXUry often. It's a lUXUry on independent fllmmaking is that you are . came ~o ,film in the ~rst place. It's'quite of the questions that any rational human the other end of it when you finish a film given the opportunity. And, by God. take. humibaung at a certam point. No one re­ being would ask themselves. You have to and you say.this is my film but I don't advantage of it.! Don't trr to make the . ally likes to be an object for the press's

16/Cinema Canada - October 1987 • INTERVIEW •

amusement you know, like so that CIll'- that, but all of these things must be seen Beverly Hills Cop_ But 1 tbink lbat lots - but I can't. I'm not capable of doing 1V can come by with a camera and in relation to the available market at the of people /lIould like to see it and lots that. I find it very depressing. Bachar is have ... other end. You know. We can idealize more would like to see Family View­ remarkable because he can throw him­ The whole notion of exposure be­ that. We can say 'My God there are so ing. self behind it totally. And I have a lot of comes a bit abstract at a certain pOint. many people who would love to see this Atom Egoyan: This is very interesting respect for him being able to do that. How is a little clip on CIll'-1V going to film if only they had a chance to see it.' for me because it goes to the question of really affect your career as a filmmaker? With Next of Kin I certainly felt that marginalization. Independent film­ Cinema Canada: Let's go back to tbe There is the sense of 'well people will frustration. Here's a film that, no matter makers attempt to marginalize them­ films. In your films many of your have heard your nan1e' but probably not. how many times I show it to an audi­ selves. I don't know exactly why but cbaracters are rootless. They exude a People's retention is not all that great. ence, no matter how small the audience there seems to be this sense of the avant­ sense of not belonging anywhere. And We are obsessed. Our media teaches us was, everyone liked it. It didn't matter if garde being something that is on the many of them are ethnic, tbougb 1 that exposure is yer), important. That be­ they'd never seen a film . It got on this fringes of sociery. By its nature, it cannot wouldn't have been able to bave pin­ comes very frustrating. That's an obsta­ tour in B.C. which was going to logging integrate itself fully into the social fabric pointed whetber tbey were Armenian or cle. That's a psychological obstacle. towns and the reaction was always quite of this country because then it defeats its Egyptian. You're talking about concrete obstacles. overwhelming. And I was saying, 'well purpose of existence, which is to ques­ Atom Egoyan: Yeah, well the thing is here's a film that has a popular touch. tion values, to challenge values. that I'm very careful not to label them as Cinema Canada: Well no. I call take Why isn't this shown in all the theatres?' This is a very attractive and romantic being Armenian or Egyptian or. .. You that as a concrete obstacle. 1 tbink we notion and it's something which see, one of the advantages of working hue in a count,), that, compared to Cinema Canada: Rigbt. Why wasn't it? everyone who is an independent avant­ with the Armenian language or the others, devotes very-little attention to its Atom Egoyan: Because someone, garde artist feels somewhere in their gut. Armenian culture is that it is, for most films and much less than that to its iI/­ somewhere, must be making a conscious That it is something in which they some­ people, not something that can be easily dependent films. evaluation as to what is the market po­ how have to remove themselves from identified, and that allows me the lUXUry Atom Egoyan: Well now, I wouldn't be tential. And surely we live in a sociery, sociery and serve this lofry position. So of being able to treat it almost on a so sure about that. I don't agree with it more than any other perhaps, and I'm then when we begin to talk about mar­ metaphorical level. I'm not particularly necessarily. Next of Kin was on a mul­ talking about North American sociery, as keting - when you're making a film or interested in giving details or being pre­ ticultural tour across the country. \\'e opposed to the particularly Canadian so­ when you're writing a novel or when cise about a particular state of national went to many different cities and we ciery, w here if there is a perceived de- you're writing a play or doing a painting alienation. Rather I'm intersted in how I - Usually to be true to ourselves, the can use that as a metaphor for a certain market or the public is something that attitude or a certain perception of exis­ either we don't think about, or we think tence. Anytime that it becomes a specific about with a certain cynicism. We're just issue I tend to shy away from it because so concerned at that point with being it's not really what I feel comfortable true to our feelings. doing. Then, all of a sudden, we finish the work and we have to apply to that work Cinema Canada: An illa/)i/i(J- to com­ an entire set of criteria which, had we municate is characteristic of tbe any sense of self-preservation, we characters ill botb. Can you explain wouldn't even begin to broach. Who's ll'by you bm'e cbosen Ibis particular going to want to see this? Who did I tbell1atic.' make this for? All these probing ques­ Atom Egoyan: rm very interested in tions which are evidently painful be­ how people can take a very simple cause they are so removed from why we human emotion and complicate it and made the film in the first place. But yet find a very long and torturous route to you subject yourself to that. I think in arriving at a simple truth. That happens some ways an independent filmmaker is in all three films. My first film YOll have perhaps the last person you should ask this real-estate agent who goes through about marketing because they're either this incredible charade of pretending going to be hopelessly naive and op­ he's selling the house that was built by timistic, or they're going to be like me these two people and we find out at the and question the public merit of their end of the film that in fact it's his parents' own work. • Patrick Tierney and Berge Fazlian passing as Next of Kin house and that this is all a ploy that he I think what we need are distributors has engineered in order to show to his never had a problem getting reviewed or mand, and if there is a perceived way of who will understand the filmmaking father that this is something that he can getting press attention. At all. I would say making money, someone will usually process, who love film and fight these be proud of. All my character is saying is making that jump between screenings in fight to get that right. Fight to do that. wars for us. I'm working with one and I 'I love you' to the father. We never see the communiry centres and art galleries Don't you think? feel very privileged to be working with him do that and it's all he has to do. But to something a bit more viable commer­ Andre Bennet here who is also handling no, he goes through this entire process. cially, that is an obstacle, And it is an ob­ Cinema Canada: 1 tbink you're I've Heard the Mermaids Singing. But Next of Kin, again this incredibly stacle which I am still undergoing, you simplifying a bit. r think that perbaps we need more people like that and those complicated route the character takes in know. in our present context the way that dis­ are the people who should be fighting order to find a sense of self-identiry. tributionlexbibition is run in tbis our cause. I don't feel particularly equip­ Family Viewing the same thing hap­ Cinema Canada: It's struck me bow the country they wouldn't care ifyourfilm ped to fight for why people should see pens. I'm interested in characters who most influential films in the last few made money. 1 don't think tbat they my particular film. I feel it's somewhat take that approach to life because it's years have come from independent would be interested in giving it a major presumptuous. close to my own personal approach. I am people like yourself, Patricia Rozema. .. release because it's not sometbing tbat Though I cherish an audience's re­ surrounded by people in my own life People who have been basically mak­ tbey produced, it's not something that sponse and I need an audience's re­ who are willing to give me very pure ing kind ofsmaller budget, auteur-type they have a stake in, it's not sometbing sponse, it's not why I made it really. I can simple expressions oflove and I find my­ cinema recently, have been getting rela­ that they contracted for. represent myself. I can represent why I self constantly analYSing that. Trying to tively little support. Do you agree with Atom Egoyan: Who's "they" to you? made a film. I can represent the views understand motivations. Again it's my that? and issues I was dealing with in the film. own character and that certainly reflects Atom Egoyan: But again, it depends on Cinema Canada: I'm talking about the I can certainly answer questions to an in the film. what you mean. It's difficult to answer major distributors who are tied to the audience and I can certainly defend my­ Cinema Canada: It seems to me that this question. I really think that Cinema American majors. r think they would self. But I cannot - and maybe this is a the only cbaracters in your films wbo Canada especially has a history of seeing rather show a turkey like Ishar than failure on my part because I know there seem to bave a relation to a wider cul­ the independent film movement in this Next of Kin which would probably are filmmakers who get very involved ture or some continuity with histol1' country as being beleaguered. In many have made a nice amount of money with their distribution, Bachar Chbib even tbougb tbey are depicted as bein~ ways it is, and there's no question about without becoming a hit on the scale of being the most notable example of that physically removed from their culture,

October 1987 - Cinema Canada/17 • INTERVIEW •

are the ethnic characters. taking place in, is much closer to the you know, make alterations and find you see a certain sense of disorder and Atom Egoyan: When I'm writing these Armenian community in Montreal than how to best fit into it of course, it be­ chaos or very uncontrolled energy in the things I work very intuitively. I'm very it would be to the Armenian community comes something else. Part of being a di­ world around you, and part of the joy of concerned with the structural logic of in Victoria, which is the community I rector is letting the actors have the op­ writing is that you can sustain the iIlu· the piece and I'm very concerned with was brought up in and which totals portunity to do that and feeling whether sion that you can control these various the stylistiC concerns and the formal about 10 people, as opposed to 30,000 or not they're being honest, whether or elements, that you can somehow have concerns of the piece and more than in Montreal. Now I'm very exposed to not their performances are being true to someone do something which will affect anything else I'm concerned with the that other community because my rela­ them. a certain action, which will then lead to emotional structure that I'm setting up, tives are all there, and I travel back and In Next of Kin, I was working with ac­ this particular resolution. but I'm not... for instance, I feel one's forth, but again you take certain ele­ tors who actually happen to be members rootedness is a result of the decisions ments, you try and understand your own of the community, who either had gone Cinema Canada: In Open House, one makes in one's life in terms of who emotional attraction to these elements, through, or knew people who had gone Next of Kin and Family Viewing you one connects oneself to as opposed to and you take that and you use it to form through experiences very close to what bave tbis very, very WASP young man as necessarily being the result of an inher­ a character, to form a structure. was being described in the script. They your protagonist. Why a WASP young ent national make-up, or psychological Many Armenians might find it quite of­ were able to give it something which be­ man? make-up. fensive that I tend to have these people comes quite magical. At a certain pOint, Atom Egoyan: Because there's an ele· as lower-class merchants because the you actually feel these people are living ment in me which is a WASP young man. Cinema Canada: That is basically one majority of Ar~enians, in Montreal say, those parts. I would be misleading anyone if I was to photo: Kaloust Babian of the lines in Next of Kin However, in try and tell them I was ethnic. There's an that and Family Viewing you do pre­ element in me which is, but there's also sent a situation where the decision to an element in me which has gone join with someone who has more, and through the Canadian English school stronger, ties - family, community, a system and that is WASP. The ' WASP strong cultural identity. .. young man is the blank canvas in my Atom Egoyan: Sure, but it's a question films. That's the character that for me is of how we perceive that individual. easiest to paint, "'ho I can also feel very Many people have perceived the Arme­ close to. nian family in Next of Kin as being the model family. You hear people say they Cinema Canada: lfind that in Next of are able to communicate with each Kin tbe family is tyrannical. It is de­ other, that they are very warm and ebul­ manding. It is imposing a cultural per· lient and have a sense of where their pas­ spective on the daughter. "You're not sions are and how to use those passions living my wa); I don't u'ant you in my to enjoy life, which is a very traditional life." The WASP famiZl' is (l'rannical as way of perceiving the ethnic personality. well but on a completeZl' different lel'el Well, again, I'm not of that mind. - the non-communication is moreel"i­ I think that I try to make it quite clear dent. that these people are all isolated as well. Atom Egoyan: That's right. h ;s just two That is perhaps a result of their being differences in human expression and overly emotional in their way of regard­ you're very correct in saying that by ing things. They've gone to the point being very emotional you're being just where they can't communicate with as silent because that's what that family their daughter. What interests the is about. When I was writing Family character in Next of Kin is not so much Viewing and I was dealing with the that the family is totally different from home movies and I got to the home his. That's only his immediate attraction. video tapes, I didn't want to make these His attraction is to be or play a people Armenian. I didn't want to do therapist or the role of the therapist and that but something in me said you have to play the role of the son in a very ar­ to have a separate language there. You chetypal sense. TIlat's how he enters the have to stress this person's distance. You family. Now, once he's there, then we know, when this man. when this lS­ see a transformation as he begins to shed year-old is looking at this image of him· the archetypal idea of son and actually self as a child. which is this very potent begins to relate to these people as image. he has to be speaking a language human beings. I wanted to get a sense of that he doesn't understand any more. the progression from the idea of the na­ That is my logic. That is what I f~lIowed tional identity or something that could the emotional power of. Someone can be objectified, to something that has to perceive this and say. 'WASPs fuck up be dealt with in a much more realistic immigrant's Ih·es'. But that has not been and a much more immediate way. my experience. and it is not the experi­ ence I wish to give to other people. It's Cinema Canada: One of tbe things that an angry experience and I'm not angry I liked ver), mucb in Next of Kin is tbat about that. I'm not angry about the way ),ou show bow the different cultures look at themselves as being at least mid­ Cinema Canada: Is the cbaracter of tbe clasb intergenerationall), and within the WASP community has suffocated mv dle-class. Again, it's not a specific event daughter in Next of Kin an alter ego for personality. It hasn't 'at all. . the person of, for example, the daughter in my life or someone else's life that I'm you? in Next of Kin. trying to present to the ' viewer. It's Atom Egoyan: Sure, there's an element Atom Egoyan: What one tries to do is Cinema Canada: No. I don 't see tbat rather an emotional state of mind which of that. She was my way of addressing . eitber bllt I do see it as a kind of e.\plo· to take elements of one's own experi­ I can then abstract. some internal problems within that fam­ ra tiOIl of tbe e.\pressioll of ell /til res tbat ence and abstract them. I wouldn't say If you were to read the script of Next ily. Her stubbornness was something I are I'e,), differellt andyoll do sboll' tbe that my father is like the character in of Kin you might find it quite cool. feel close to. But then when Peter (the differences. For example. tbe relation Next of Kin, though of course there are Quite detached. But the moment you W ASP character) suggests to her that betll'een tbe fatber and tbe $011 ill Fam­ elements - which you then tend to populate these figures of your imagina­ sometimes it's important to pretend that ily Viewing is I'e,)' I'e,)' complex. exaggerate because it is a drama - and tion with real personalities and you we're something that we're not in order Atom Egoyan: In the com'entional then you bring in other elements. allow them the opportunity to breathe to obtain equilibrium, that sa\'s some. commercial film. you have this charac· in those roles, to try on these lines as For instance, I would say that the story thing that I also feel very close'to ter. the boy. who·s MichaelJ. Fox - who though they were garments, and then, that Next of Kin tells, or the setting it's One of the attractions'ofwriting is that should be Michael J. Fox - someone 18/Cinema Canada - October 1987 • INTERVIEW •

who's immediately attractive. But, of are bits of technology which the indus· the character. And in Family Viewing and there it was splashed on the second course, this goes against the logic of the try has told us can make memories come it's a release and an explosion in a way. page. And all of a sudden I felt more com­ situation. If you've been raised with a alive. To quote one of the actual ads. Atom Egoyan: I think that basically any fortable with it. 'Oh yes, this is how man like that as your father, you would That is a very very potent and drama· artist who's dealing with certain funda· something like this is actually assume certain of his characteristics. tic device. Make memories come alive. I mental human emotions has to deal with trivialized.' And the process oftrivializa· which this boy does. There's no question find that very complex as a notion and I them in the context of the particular, tion, we come to terms with it you know. that he is this man's son. My overriding certainly find that as social phenomenon very specific concerns of the society he's concern there was not to make him this it concerns me. And it ties in very easily setting the story in, or more specifically, Cinema Canada: It's interesting be· sympathetic character. not to make him with my wider concerns. In terms of the society in whh::h that artist lives. cause in Family Viewing you don't the accessing to the audience but to why human beings deal with each other I was reading an article the other day come to terms with it. It isn't so much make him true to this situation. in certain ways. which is really appropriate. Apparently tril'ialized as desecrated. Now in terms of the ethnicity that ",-e This whole notion of someone going they tried to stage this thing in a class· Atom Egoyan: Well , the patriarchy is see in the tape. my imperative there was through a very complex process of arriv· - room where they had a video monitor desecrated. The way that he uses the to stress the theme of a lost past. And the ing at a very simple truth, well, when you that was doing a live recording of the technology to sustain this patriarchal most obvious way of doing that was to have the technology to make that com· teacher in the class and they staged this. structure is desecrated. Yes but what show a lost culture. I'm not making a plication that much more confounding What happened was that at one point also must be addressed is the fact that, as statement about that culture and you and when that's set up and when that's they had two thugs come in and attack in Next of Kin, the boy's way of his entry won't even know what the statement is placed as a societal weapon or as a soci· or pretend to attack the teacher, right, level, his entry point is through the same unless you understood Armenian, and etal cure for your alienation, it's obvious and then they recorded the class' reac· technology. So there's an ambiguity sure enough I've tailored certain aspects to use that as a device in one's films. tion. Apparently everyone in the class there. of the film for an Armenian audience be· turned to look at this on the monitor. cause there are certain things that are Cinema Canada: But in your films it That's their way of dealing with vio· cinema Canada: Family viewing. I said between the grandmother and the often acts as a release. In Open House Ience. Dealing with an exceptional or a want to ask you how you achieved the mother. which give us some clues. But you have the slide projector showing very alienating emotion or something visual effects. The images themselves it's not in English. You're not expected the house. In Next of Kin the young that they didn't ... because that makes it work on several levels. You have the to get it. I'm glad it's not in English be· man gets to see a Videotape which more comfortable. very direct video that you see. And then cause it's too obvious. I preferred it as ... shows anotherprOblem family and that A friend of mine's girlfriend was mur· you have this other video image in the ties him into the other family. Which is dered recently and when I saw the news apartment and then you have the film. Cinema Canada: The obviousness is also a release for him, the acting·out of I couldn't deal with it. I pick up the Sun How did you achieve this, especially the not importan t. I think for example that effect in the apartment.? having the famiZl' history erased by im· Atom Egoyan: It's the first time I think ages of the father fUCking with his new :a,:"!' a ~on f ,", eatre it's been done. I was only able to do it be· girlfn'end is almost too much but, it's ore s ent s cause of this new technology that was the daring to risk crossing that limit :': X-:ERNA i. ~F'FA 1 R5 made available. There's a lab here in which makes it powerfUl. FEATUREFnMS town, PFA labs, and they make very high· Atom Egoyan: He's seen as this monster quality kineys from video to film. I de­ Family Viewing (86 minutes, color) A but I can say I love that character. I love cided to shoot this entire condominium story ofmixed and found identities set in the complexity of this man who finds sequence as if it were a TV show. So I had that he can only be aroused when he's in nursing home, a condomiruum and a two cameras I was live-switching like in the process of physically erasing his past. telephone sex establishment. COli}' a TV show. All the editing was made on pleted in March, 1987. Next of Kin (72 I Putting trivialized images on top of that. the spot. We mastered it all onto one­ He never looks at these. He's never in· minutes, color) Award·winning featute inch tape. Then we transferred that to terested in seeing these recorded im· CUJ;cently being di$tributed throughout film . So it actually is a videotape image ages. We gather that because the son r90rth America. and Europe. but it's transferred to film directly. says so. It's the process he finds stimulat· What I was playing with in the film ing. I found that, 'what an interesting was setting up a correlation between the character.' You know. , L'l 1\ I ' i' I \ !\ I ~ "II.l, \' . I 1o , , ·IUI,, · I- idea of generations in the family and gen·

" , 1\ " . 1.'''' '" ,\ ~" '''11 ' ' erations of images. The common par- -- €inema-6mada:-He"s nara-sympathe-- ­ . tance- iriviaeolsthaf you -faIKa:DOti f firsC- ­ tic character but I didn't see him as a generation, second generation and third monster. generation video and so it's an obvious Atom Egoyan: I fmd him quite sym· metaphor for the way the family works pathetic in his own way, you know, be· in the film. If you were to see the con­ cause he's suffering, he's suffering from dominium scene as the first generation a disease. It's a 20th· century disease and because it's the highest quality, then you it's something that he has subjected him· begin to see the home movies as being self to because of some pain that he's second generation, they were shot on gone through. This woman leaving must VHS, which is then transferred to kiney, have been very painful and this is his way it's an older generation; then you have of dealing with that. It's the wrong way the detective and the surveillance stuff' but it is very common. which is another generation because it's filmed off a monitor, there's a way of sys­ Cinema Canada: In both your features tematically pushing the film in terms of and Open House you depict some kind viewing what generation you're seeing of visual technology of some kind. at that particular point. It's a very im­ Couldyou tell mea little bit about your portant part of the film. concern with that as well. Atom Egoyan: The technology that we Cinema Canada: Are you happy with have available to us now has tremendous Family Viewing? capacity to either trivialize experience Atom Egoyan: I feel confident about or enhance it, depending entirely on Family Viewing_ When I made the in­ how we decide to use it. I'm not con· Open Arms Full-length play produced trOductory speech at Ottawa I said, 'No demning it. I'm just very concerned in Toronto. Winner of the James Buller more of this hemming and hawing, well. about its misuse. I think that particularly Award for Best Original Play in the 1984 I·don 'toknow- if· you 're·going· to· like· of instruments which enshrine senti­ Multicultural Theatre Festival. this kind of stuff.' I said, 'I will tell people ment - a camera, a projector, a slide External Affairs Full-length play devel· that I'm proud of this work' because I projector, a videotape monitor, these oped at the Tarragon Theatre, Toronto. am. I'm generally proud of it. •

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2O/Cinema Canada - October 1987