PBS’ “TO THE CONTRARY”

Woman Thought Leader Tracye Mcquirter

Host: Bonnie Erbe

Sept 18th, 2019

Interviewee: Tracye McQuirter Announcer 0:00 Funding for To The Contrary provided by the Cornell Douglas foundation committed to encouraging stewardship of the environment, land conservation, watershed protection and eliminating harmful chemicals. Additional funding provided by the Wallace genetic Foundation, Colcom Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation.

Tracye McQuirter 0:01 You're more likely to see advertising from fast food companies. They want to take the money where they can get it. But the cost of that is consumers of their products actually being bombarded with these messages from these unhealthy companies.

Bonnie Erbe 0:15 Hello, I'm Bonnie Erbe. Welcome to To The Contrary. This week, in the black community. We speak with award-winning nutritionist and best selling author Tracye McQuirter. Her newest book is called Ageless Vegan, the Secret to Living a Long and Healthy Plant Based Life, written with her mother, Mary. So welcome Tracye. Great to have you here.

Tracye McQuirter 0:56 Thank you, Ronnie. Great to be here.

Bonnie Erbe 0:58 So whose idea was this book, yours or your mother's?

Tracye McQuirter 1:01 It was mine. It was my idea. My mother was reluctant. Because she's like, who wants to hear my story? But, you know, she's a black woman who started, who's from the south who went vegan in her 50s and it's now 83 and doing great, still vegan, so I wanted to share her story.

Bonnie Erbe 1:17 And how did you become vegan?

Tracye McQuirter 1:20 I became vegan 32 years ago, as a sophomore at Amherst College. Our Black Student Union brought to campus and to talk about the state of black America. And instead he talks about the plate of black America and how unhelpfully most folks eat. And he traced the path of a hamburger from a cow on a factory farm through the slaughterhouse process, to a fast food restaurant to a clogged artery to a heart attack. And that's what started me on my journey.

Bonnie Erbe 1:56 Do you think, given that heart diseases, the biggest killer in this country, bigger than all cancers combined, do you think Americans have gotten that message that connects animal fat with heart disease?

Tracye McQuirter 2:12 It's improving. I mean, I think more and more people are getting the message, but clearly not enough. We're dealing with marketing, food advertising, we're dealing with a USDA and food guidelines that are biased towards, you know, industry towards the food industry, not necessarily promoting health, but promoting the food industry, right? That's their job. And so we have this contradiction there. The message is getting out more and more, I mean, I see the difference in the last 32 years from when I started. But, you know, there's more to be done. Bonnie Erbe 2:58 Tell me about the differences if they exist between white people and communities of color, different communities of color, and vegetarian or veganism?

Tracye McQuirter 3:09 As of 2016, 3% or nearly 1.5 million African Americans are vegan and vegetarian. And another 32% say that when they eat out, they regularly or sometimes order meatless meals. So that's an additional 15 million people. African Americans are pioneers in veganism. I mean, starting from the late 1800s, to African Americans who were Seventh Day Adventist, were eating vegetarian food on up through the civil rights movement, because of the practice of non-violence, many folks actually expanded that non violence towards animals. So in terms of the need for African Americans to eat more plant based foods, whether it's, you know, more all the way going vegan, it's to me essential, because we have the worst health outcomes in the country, there are about 300,000 African American deaths from primarily chronic diseases, preventable diet related chronic diseases every year. That's more than 800 people a day. And so this is a real crisis in our community. And there are lots of reasons that people are eating unhealthy foods, but we also have the power to take back control of our health. //And that's how did Gregory became a vegetarian starting in 1965, and then vegan in 1967. So when he came to my campus, 20 years later, he was he had been vegan for 20 years. So, you know, there's always been this, what I call a stream of African Americans who have been into veganism and healthy eating next to this big river or ocean of folks, you know, who were not, but you know, that number is improving.

Bonnie Erbe 5:05 I've often thought dying of heart attacks at young ages must be associated with eating a lot of animal fat and hardening of the arteries, etc. Is that accurate?

Tracye McQuirter 5:14 Yes, definitely. I mean, it's the number of heart disease. It's the number one cause of death among African Americans as well. There's certain cancers, breast cancer, ovarian cancer, uterine cancer, there's stroke, there's unhealthy weight, obesity, there's diabetes. And there's also oxidative stress, right? So oxidative stress can be caused by diet, it's kind of resting of the cells prematurely, that can be caused by diet, but that can also be caused by racism and sexism, right? External factors.

Bonnie Erbe 5:49 Stress.

Tracye McQuirter 5:50 Stress. Absolutely.

Bonnie Erbe 5:53 But a lot of what you've said is also true. The white community, yes, not so much the Asian community, they tend to eat more better, I think, than just about any other ethnic group in this country, including whites.

Tracye McQuirter 6:32 Well, you know, what's really interesting about that to Bonnie is that before fast food companies began to target African American communities, urban areas, African Americans were actually meeting the USDA recommendations for fiber for healthy fats for whole for and more than white Americans were. So this is in the 1960s. And then the fast food companies decided to target and actually prey on low income communities of color, particularly African American communities starting in the early 1970s. And that completely changed the way that low income black folks in cities were eating. Bonnie Erbe 7:17 I was, it's funny, because I was going to ask you whether fast food was a factor in African Americans eating, you know, having these problems? And have you done, have you tried to do any work with these companies to? I mean, you always see McDonald's.

Tracye McQuirter 7:35 Yeah.

Bonnie Erbe 7:35 Sponsoring McDonald's, Ronald McDonald Houses in low income areas, you see them targeting them, and Coke and Pepsi and targeting black communities with ads, with ads during sporting events that attract African Americans more so. What can be, you know, have you had discussions with them about knocking this off?

It's a hard question for a lot of organizations and companies at school systems, because they're underfunded, right? And so and they're not getting the same funding that primarily white organizations or institutions might get, and in terms of African American media, you know, over the decades, that has been the same, you're more likely to see advertising from fast food companies at an earlier time from cigarette industries, because they didn't get the funding. They didn't get other advertising that the primarily white media was getting. They want to take the money where they can get it. But the cost of that is African American consumers of their products actually being bombarded with these messages from these unhealthy companies.

According to a 2016 poll by the Pew organization, so 9% of Americans will say that they are vegetarian, almost vegetarian, or vegan or almost vegan combined. That still seems low to me, when I see the huge increase of vegetarian and vegan restaurants across the country. Some even becoming chains like not sweet green, which is healthy food, not...

Tracye McQuirter 10:49 Vege grill as an example.

Bonnie Erbe 10:50 Right exactly. So you said 32% of African Americans, if you include an occasional vegetarian meal or vegan meal.

Tracye McQuirter 11:01 Right, so these restaurants that you're seeing more of, they are actually catering to vegans and vegetarians, but primarily to omnivores, right? That's why you're seeing more. So just like a third of African Americans are ordering meatless meals, you know, when regularly or sometimes, so was the general population.

Bonnie Erbe 11:27 How important are things like books like your book, which I want to talk about in a couple of minutes, and your pamphlet and documentaries about the food industry? I remember when I was still eating pretty much all dairy products. Somebody told me about the there was a documentary out about dairy product that they mixed, I don't remember what it was. But I think it was something it showed how the dairy industry would mix germs, germs that came out of the cows that didn't get out through pasteurization, or fats that contain germs back in with the milk before when they processed it and all the awful things then, and I realized, Hey, I gotta quit this stuff, too. Yeah. But how important are those things in converting people?

Tracye McQuirter 13:31 Oh, crucial. They're absolutely crucial. Because you, you understand, we know that there's a concerted effort by junk, the junk food industry, the fast food industry, the processed food industry, through food advertising, to keep customers, to target young people to get them hooked very young. And so we need books, and we need guides and we need movies, we need documentaries to counter this message because it's not coming from the federal government enough. It's not coming from you know, even healthier food industries, you rarely see commercials that promote fruits and vegetables and whole grains, right? So these other types of media are crucial to helping people you know, understand about veganism and .

Bonnie Erbe 14:45 Let's switch to what you've written.

Tracye McQuirter 14:50 Sure. So this is the book, my latest book, Ageless Vegan that I wrote with my mom. And this actually was written in celebration of our 30 years of go of being vegan. And this guide is the African American vegan Starter Guide that I created with . And this is a completely free guide, I wrote with 11 other black vegan experts, and it's all about how and why to .

Bonnie Erbe 15:25 There are tons of vegetarian and vegan cookbooks coming out all the time. To talk about that, please?

Tracye McQuirter 15:47 Is just kind of start with the basics. ingredients. Fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grains, beans, and nuts as ingredients. Right? And so how do you use those, and seasonings and sauces. If I'm doing the cooking class, or if I'm at a festival is start with vegan soul food. Now most folks eat soul food at family reunions or special occasions. It's not everyday food, right? But that's the food that you're going to have at a festival or celebration, right? And so I show folks how to make it using plant based ingredients. So how do you make Mac and Cheese? How do you make collard greens without meat, tastes delicious, right? How do you do folk fried chicken? So that's what I start with. And it's in. And I think that once people understand that they can make easily, make these foods that they love that they like to celebrate with at home. You know, they start there.

Bonnie Erbe 16:53 What do you tell people about making about using processed vegan products? Yeah, that really aren't as healthy as if you start from scratch yourself. Right? Because Yeah, sugar and salt.

Tracye McQuirter 17:08 Yeah, absolutely. So I call it bridge foods, these foods out here that mimic burgers and hot dogs and cheese, and chicken, those are highly processed, or more likely to have to be very high in fat, salt and sugar. So they are healthier but they're not necessarily healthy. Because they're still processed and so and they're still addictive. A lot of people need that bridge, they need to have foods that taste and feel in their mouth like meat and dairy, right? So and I did that 30 years ago, right? I needed that kind of food to get me over the hump. But it's still it's a bridge, but it's not a place to stay.

Bonnie Erbe 17:51 The same you're saying as a bridge, calling a bridge food is meat that doesn't may have originally come from animals. And in the case of for example, lab made meat doesn't involve cruelty in its production.

Tracye McQuirter 18:05 Right, bridge foods and these lab based meats are absolutely better when it comes to animals, right? But when it comes to health for these lab grown meats, you're still dealing with animal protein, cholesterol and saturated fat.

Bonnie Erbe 18:24 Now what reason do most people cite for becoming vegetarian and vegan if they grew up animal based diet? Tracye McQuirter 18:32 Most people do it for health reasons. That has been my experience over the decades, but actually nail because of climate change. And because of people's awareness about animals, I actually can't say that that's really true. I would like to see what the latest statistics are myself. If you're really informed about what's going on, you know, that the burning of the Amazon, it's happening because they're clearing land for cattle grazing, right for raising meat.

Bonnie Erbe 19:04 Well lumber too.

Tracye McQuirter 19:06 Yeah, and lumber and also for to plant soy, right? That's fed to animals.

Bonnie Erbe 19:11 But I think it's more known. You're right, in that it's better known as being done to get precious woods and rare woods. But it's less known and more people need to know about.

Tracye McQuirter 19:24 More people need to know.

Bonnie Erbe 19:25 A lot of it's being done to raise cattle.

Tracye McQuirter 19:27 Exactly. And environmental organizations are now willing to say it, I think decades earlier, they were less likely to make the connection because they were afraid of losing funding. But now I think that they're more they're more willing, from what I see they're more willing to make that connection. And so we're more likely going to hear it in the media, I think for health reasons for reasons and for climate reasons that people do it for spiritual reasons as well.

Bonnie Erbe 19:54 Right. I was going to ask you, how does religion play into all this? Because I was noticing, I was doing research in advance of our interview in the most vegetarian or vegan country in the world is India, where 75% and of course Hinduism and Jainism. Two prominent religions there do not allow their followers to eat meat.

Tracye McQuirter 20:20 Right, and here in this country, and also worldwide Seventh Day Adventist, right, promote a vegetarian diet. And, you know, I think that the largest study done here on African Americans was on African American Seventh Day Adventist and something I learned preparing for this interview was that Oakwood College in Alabama, which is a black Seventh Day Adventist institution, has always had vegetarian food since its founding, founding in the late 1800s. I didn't know that. So, you know, definitely religious and spiritual reasons. And here in Washington, DC in the 80s, when I went vegan, I discovered myself there was a large and thriving black vegan community that had started the very first 100% vegan establishments in the nation's capital. And they were African Hebrew Israelites, Aseraset

Bonnie Erbe 21:21 From Ethiopia?

Tracye McQuirter 21:24 No, they were actually African..

Bonnie Erbe 21:26 Because the black Jews in Africa are from Ethiopia.

Tracye McQuirter 21:29 Right, yourselves, they themselves were from this area, and they adopted this practice this religious practice. And there was also Aseraset. So and then the Nation of Islam, you know, promoted vegetarianism as well. And then you just had folks who were doing it for animal rights and social justice reasons, right, same as Dick Gregory. So there are lots of reasons that you know that folks do it, but definitely religious and spiritual reasons too.

Bonnie Erbe 22:01 Now, one question I want to ask, is the expense and who I mean, there's obviously a reason why McDonald's is targeting poor neighborhoods, be with more, eat more burgers, because it's vegetarian, and supposedly, is a more expensive way to go. But meat is more expensive than vegetables. So how does all that work?

Tracye McQuirter 22:26 So it's a myth that it has to be that it's by default, more expensive, it obviously can be, right? But if you're cooking your foods from scratch, and if you are using whole food ingredients, if you're getting rice and other grains from the bulk bed, right? If you're making your stir fry, for example, if you're a family that eats chicken stir fry a couple times a week, you can substitute chickpeas or , or black beans, or cashews or walnuts, right? Much cheaper than throwing some meat in there. So it doesn't have to be if you know how to cook from scratch. And I think that's a time issue, right? Less than more so than an expense issue. Its convenience, right? The people are, that people are stopping at fast food places after the kids get out of school or after, you know, they're picking them up from soccer practice or whatever. And, you know, they don't have time to cook. That's an issue to address, right. But it doesn't have to be more expensive. And in fact, that thriving black vegan community that I mentioned in the 80s that had these 100% vegan establishments, they were in low income black communities.

Bonnie Erbe 24:06 One question I get from everybody about being vegetarian. And then thinking about it is, well, where am I going to get my protein?

Tracye McQuirter 24:15 Oh, now is the protein question. So vegans get 70% more protein than the recommended daily allowance, just like omnivores do. So protein is a non-issue.

Bonnie Erbe 24:42 I read somewhere that you need, every person only needs two ounces of protein every day, that's not a lot. You don't need a 10 ounce steak. You don't need, you know, a 15 ounce fish, you need two ounces, so and what I tell people is, you got nuts, you got soy...

Tracye McQuirter 25:06 You get 10% of your protein needs from all kinds of whole grains. Even and vegetables have protein in small amounts. It's really difficult not to get enough protein. If you're eating a healthy vegan diet, it's just not an issue.

Bonnie Erbe 25:21 Okay, and you say... Tracye McQuirter 25:23 Fiber is the issue in this country.

Bonnie Erbe 25:25 Fiber is? Where do you get your fiber from?

Tracye McQuirter 25:27 Yes, your fiber from plant based foods. All of those plant based foods that we talked about the beans, the nuts, the whole grains,the fruits and the vegetables. You don't get fiber from processed grains, refined grains, you don't get fiber from meat. So it's a lack of fiber that is the real issue. Where do you get your fiber is the question that we should be asking.

Bonnie Erbe 25:48 The history of the food industry. Why do we have such a poison filled food industry in this country? Why, you know, I get preservatives, I guess sugar, I guess fats, but I even, I feed birds outside my window. They put suet, which is beef rendering into bird, wild bird food, birds don't eat cows. I mean, what happened in this country where some persons now that I've had gone into wild birds, food stores and said, Why in God's name would you put beef in food for a bird?

Tracye McQuirter 26:27 Right.

Bonnie Erbe 26:27 And they say, well, it gives them more energy, they like it better.

Tracye McQuirter 26:32 I mean, its profit. You know, it's the food industry is, it's you know, we're in a capitalist system that is about exploitation extraction and getting folks addicted to a product, right? That holds up, holds true in the food industry, it's the same thing. The industry puts profit over people profit over health, and the United States Department of Agriculture's job is to promote the agricultural industry. And so what that means is you have subsidies that go to these huge industries, these huge fast food companies, these huge agricultural companies to subsidize the true cost of these products, right? So that's why these foods are cheaper, the ingredients, the inputs are subsidized. And so it makes it seem that the cost is cheaper, but we're actually paying for it in terms of our health. So it's up to us to, to challenge that and to organize around that to make changes in the industry. It's not going to happen from the corporation's, it's happening, it's going to happen from us.

Bonnie Erbe 28:06 What about the movement among local governments to turn animal abuse crimes from misdemeanors to felonies. I raised this because I used to write a newspaper column, and learned years ago, that studies found if slaughter, if your job was all of a sudden, from driving a truck to going to kill it, you know, chopping the heads off of animals or putting a bolt into a horse's brain or cow's brain, all day long that those when those slaughterhouses opened up in rural communities, domestic violence went through the roof. And they started to learn that mass murderers started plying their trade, if you will, experimenting on animals as children, Jeffrey Dahmer, who cut up you know, who raped and killed young man and cut them up and stuck them in his freezer? He started on cat. Is that a piece of information that all animal eaters should know? You know, people who consume meat should know because it does, it not obviously, a tiny percentage of people work in these factories, end up murdering anybody, a somewhat larger percentage, and beating up people in their household. Would that be a factor that would drive more people away from forcing people into jobs where they have to deal with blood and kill living things everyday? Tracye McQuirter 29:40 All of these are important things to know. And you know, folks who work in slaughterhouses folks who are picking our food, a lot of them are immigrants, a lot of them are, you know, brought here to do that. A lot of them are low income folks who have the ability to fewer options, right?

Bonnie Erbe 29:59 Nobody wasn't desperate for a job for the most part...

Tracye McQuirter 30:02 Will not do that.

Bonnie Erbe 30:03 Want to deal in blood and the misery and these animals go through.

Tracye McQuirter 30:08 And they're terribly exploited as workers and it's one of the most dangerous jobs in the country. Right? Yes, I think that's really important for people to know to understand that this is something that they are actually benefiting from. They are co-conspirators in, right, because they are eating the food that is produced in these conditions. So yes, I certainly hope that that would, you know, help people to understand that this is another reason to let that go.

Bonnie Erbe 30:38 Terrific. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your wonderful book, and information that you're spreading and all the best of luck to you and your career moving forward.

Tracye McQuirter 30:49 Thank you. It was great talking to you, Bonnie.

Bonnie Erbe 30:51 That's it for this edition of To The Contrary, please follow me on Twitter, and visit our website .org./To The Contrary and whether you agree or think To The Contrary. See you next week.

Announcer 31:13 Funding for To The Contrary provided by the Cornell Douglas foundation committed to encouraging stewardship of the environment, land conservation, watershed protection and eliminating harmful chemicals. Additional funding provided by the Wallace genetic Foundation, Colcom Foundation and the Charles A. Frueauff Foundation. For a transcript or to see an online version of this episode of To The Contrary, please visit our pbs.org forward/To The Contrary.

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