Social Security Committee Thursday 1 February 2018 Session 5 © Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body Information on the Scottish Parliament’s copyright policy can be found on the website - www.parliament.scot or by contacting Public Information on 0131 348 5000 Thursday 1 February 2018 CONTENTS Col. SOCIAL SECURITY (SCOTLAND) BILL: STAGE 2 ................................................................................................... 1 SOCIAL SECURITY COMMITTEE 3rd Meeting 2018, Session 5 CONVENER *Clare Adamson (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP) DEPUTY CONVENER *Pauline McNeill (Glasgow) (Lab) COMMITTEE MEMBERS *George Adam (Paisley) (SNP) *Jeremy Balfour (Lothian) (Con) *Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab) *Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green) *Ben Macpherson (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP) *Ruth Maguire (Cunninghame South) (SNP) *Adam Tomkins (Glasgow) (Con) *attended THE FOLLOWING ALSO PARTICIPATED: Jeane Freeman (Minister for Social Security) CLERK TO THE COMMITTEE Simon Watkins LOCATION The Mary Fairfax Somerville Room (CR2) 1 1 FEBRUARY 2018 2 service for Scotland to deliver a rights-based social security Scottish Parliament system that is founded on the principles of dignity, fairness and respect.”—[Official Report, 19 December 2017; c 22.] Social Security Committee She is right, and that is a noteworthy and meaningful principle. Therefore, the founding Thursday 1 February 2018 principle of the bill should be that social security is going to be a public service. That sets out to the 1.4 million people in Scotland who will use the [The Convener opened the meeting at 09:00] service how important it is to the Parliament and Social Security (Scotland) Bill: the Scottish Government. In putting these principles forward, we are showing that we see Stage 2 this as the way forward. The Convener (Clare Adamson): Good To summarise, it is very important—in any morning and welcome to the third meeting in 2018 documentation and in anything that we do—to get of the Social Security Committee. I remind the founding principles correct. I believe that everyone to turn mobile phones and other devices putting this amendment at the very beginning of to silent mode so that they do not disrupt the the bill would tell everyone exactly what we want broadcasting. from the social security system in Scotland. There is only one item on today’s agenda: I move amendment 77. consideration of the Social Security (Scotland) Bill Alison Johnstone (Lothian) (Green): The at stage 2. It has been agreed that we will not principles section of the bill—section 1—is proceed beyond part 1 today. There are 13 groups absolutely crucial, as my colleague George Adam of amendments in part 1 and we may not get has just pointed out. Laying out the foundation through them all this morning as we have to finish stones of the system sends out a really clear at around 11.30 to allow members to get to the message that the new Scottish system will not chamber for question time. chop and change at will or create uncertainty for I welcome the Minister for Social Security, applicants and recipients. The minister is Jeane Freeman, and her accompanying officials to absolutely right to take this approach, which I the meeting. welcome. If every other aspect of the system is going to flow from the principles, which I believe is the policy intention, it is absolutely imperative that Section 1—The Scottish social security they are the right principles. principles The principle that the system should reduce The Convener: Amendment 77, in the name of poverty, as is outlined in amendment 1, is George Adam, is grouped with amendments 1, absolutely key. Social security performs many 102, 78, 5, 6, and 113. functions, but one of them is the reduction of George Adam (Paisley) (SNP): I wanted to poverty on the basis of the belief that poverty is move amendment 77 for one very important unacceptable. That is one of the fundamental reason—I wanted to be the first committee tenets of the post-war social security system, and member to speak. No—in all seriousness, I it should be a fundamental principle of the Scottish believe that it is important to set the foundations system that is now being built. correctly for the bill. We all know how important it The principle has already been established in is. It is one of the biggest bits of legislation that the the Child Poverty (Scotland) Act 2017 and, as a Parliament has produced since this place came result of the work of the committee, that act into being. contains several references to the important role It is important that we set out right from the that social security plays in the reduction of child beginning what we want to do. When people all poverty. That being the case, it would be remiss of over the world talk about documents, everybody us not to have, in this bill, a similar recognition that remembers the founding principles that are social security is vital to the reduction of poverty. mentioned right at the start of those documents, That recognition should be stated up front as one and stating that of the core principles of the new system. “the delivery of social security is a public service” Mark Griffin (Central Scotland) (Lab): I will sets out to everyone exactly what we are trying to support the two amendments that have just been achieve. spoken to. During the stage 1 debate, the minister said: The purpose of amendment 102 and the related amendments that I have lodged, which we will “The Social Security (Scotland) Bill comes to the come to later in the debate, is to make sure that Parliament as the legislative foundation for a new public 3 1 FEBRUARY 2018 4 equality is embedded in the legislation and, has a role in reducing poverty, and I understand therefore, in the Scottish social security system. that the amendment has the support of a wide range of stakeholders, including the Poverty My amendments have the support of Engender, Alliance. Scottish Women’s Aid and the Coalition for Racial Equality and Rights. I am grateful to Mr Griffin for his indication that he does not intend to press amendment 78, which When equality is not embedded in policy from I could not support. I do not consider that singling the beginning, the danger is that it becomes an out a group at this point in the bill would reflect the add-on—something that happens after the fact but spirit of the other principles. More fundamentally, that has not been considered sufficiently to shape amendment 78, as it is written, misunderstands the system itself. The take-up of benefits among the nature of disability assistance and the scope of black and minority ethnic groups in Scotland is not our ministerial powers in relation to social security. routinely published—indeed, it is not monitored in Disability assistance is not designed to be an anti- order to see how significant disparities come about poverty measure, although I accept that, for some and to determine the best way to address them. I people, it has that effect. It is not means tested have lodged amendment 102 because we know and it does not seek to top-up or to replace that many equalities groups—particularly women, income—its purpose is to help people who have a BME groups and disabled people—experience disability or a terminal illness with their living costs. higher rates of poverty and, therefore, may The Scottish Government has no control over the depend more on the social security system. forms of assistance that, in my view, could really I have lodged amendment 78 to start a debate make an impact on reducing poverty for disabled on the issues that disabled people face in their people, but I welcome the opening of a debate on daily lives, including higher costs. However, I do the issue and I am sure that, through the not intend to press the amendment, which has committee and elsewhere, we will continue to come about on the back of support from Disability have that debate. Agenda Scotland. Almost half the people in this Amendment 102, also in Mr Griffin’s name, country who live in poverty have at least one seeks to achieve broadly similar goals to those disabled person in their household. Therefore, we that amendments 5 and 6, in my name, seek to must consider how the Scottish social security achieve, but the wording of amendment 102 is system would cover the additional costs of a problematic. Devolved assistance will be capable disability, which can push someone into poverty, of delivering equality of treatment, but it will not be and how it would break down the barriers and possible or appropriate to seek to guarantee enable disabled people to get into work and lift exactly the same outcomes for every person themselves out of poverty. purely on the ground that they belong to a specific Amendment 78 has the support of Disability group. To ignore individual needs in that manner Agenda Scotland, Camphill Scotland, the Carers runs contrary to the international human rights Trust, the Health and Social Care Alliance framework, which, as a broad rule, puts meeting Scotland, the Scottish Independent Advocacy individuals’ needs at the heart of a rights-based Alliance and Leonard Cheshire Disability. As I approach. have said, the purpose of the amendment is to More technically, amendment 102 is silent on start a debate on the poverty that a lot of disabled precisely which category of outcome it targets and people find themselves in and how the Scottish with what group or other benchmark it seeks social security system could alleviate the situation. equality. That makes it difficult, if not impossible, The Convener: I invite the minister to speak to to discern exactly how the system could live up to amendment 5 and the other amendments in the such a principle.