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Euroscepticism Uncovered: Script Outline 1 Please note that this programme transcript is BBC copyright and may not be reproduced or copied for any other purpose. RADIO 4 RADIO CURRENT AFFAIRS ANALYSIS Euroscepticism Uncovered TRANSCRIPT OF A RECORDED DOCUMENTARY Presenter: Edward Stourton Producer: Hannah Barnes Editor: Innes Bowen BBC Room 1210 White City 201 Wood Lane London W12 7TS (020) 8752 7279 Broadcast date: 17.10.11 2030-2100 Repeat date: 23.10.11 2130-2200 CD number: PLN142/11VT1042 Duration: 27’39” 2 Taking part in order of appearance: Tim Montgomerie Conservative Home Douglas Carswell MP for Clacton Maurice Glasman Of the political group Blue Labour Mark Seddon Former editor of the Tribune newspaper and used to sit on Labour’s National Executive Committee Clare Perry MP for Devizes Norman Lamont Chancellor during the Maastricht negotiations and a veteran of the European debate 3 ANONYMOUS MP 1: For a long time Euroscepticism has had a bad name and it was seen as if it was the man on a bus with a sort of plastic bag shouting about Europe. I think that EU withdrawal is the love that dare not speak its name. And I would say that many, many Tories would probably be happy if we move towards a referendum on withdrawal in some way or another. STOURTON: The Conservative MP who holds that view would only talk to us on condition that we concealed his identity – the voice you have just heard is that of an actor. It is the sort of technique we would use for an interview with – say – a dissident in a police state, and it’s a mark of how sensitive this issue is. ANONYMOUS MP 1: The EU has gone far too far in disrupting our economic life… and I feel that we’re inexorably moving down one direction and it seems to be impossible to change it without fundamental reform… I think that you need to prepare the climate, you need to sound reasonable, you need to ensure that people don’t see you just bashing foreigners, because all that sort of thing is disastrous. STOURTON: Many Eurosceptics complain that some mainstream newspapers and broadcasters – the BBC included - represent them as unhinged extremists even though their views have widespread public support. Opinion polls consistently suggest a Eurosceptic British electorate; in one conducted by Angus Reid in July 57% of those interviewed said they believed EU membership had been negative for Britain and nearly half said they would vote to leave if there was a referendum on the question. This programme will ask whether the views of politicians are moving closer to those of the public, and what the consequences of that could be. Some Conservatives are already expressing frustration at the way the party leadership has behaved in office. Where, they say, was that promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which introduced changes like a new EU President. This Tory MP has also asked to remain anonymous. And we have used an actor’s voice. ANONYMOUS MP 2: I think the rhetoric that was first articulated by David Cameron in 2006 and 2007, which led to the foolhardy promise of a “cast iron guarantee” that we would have the Lisbon Referendum has not resulted in the actuality. We haven’t seen a robust approach. We’ve seen a pretty supine approach to the European Union. And the collateral damage from that broken promise is a bit of a black cloud over the government. Although people are mature enough to accept it’s a coalition government, they’re not even seeing the Conservative part of the coalition being robust on the European Union, and for many people that’s a concession too far. STOURTON: There is, as they say, history here. The Conservative Party is still haunted by the memory of the civil war over Europe which dominated the final years of John Major’s government in the 1990s. 4 STOURTON: During the Thatcher-Major years many of the party’s most powerful barons, men like Chris Patten and Michael Heseltine, were EU enthusiasts. Today the picture is very different. Tim Montgomerie of Conservative Home. MONTGOMERIE: The great problem that Margaret Thatcher has when she was leading the Conservative Party and wanted to take it in a Eurosceptic direction was that she inherited a party that had cut its political teeth during the Macmillan and Heath years when the Conservative Party’s belief in the European project was at its strongest. And that meant she had a large number of its biggest beasts opposed to what she wanted to do. Since they have retired, a lot of them have died, all of the new party’s candidates, almost without exception, have been Eurosceptic and there has just been a massive transformation of the Conservative Party’s outlook on the European question. David Cameron has sat behind him people who cut their political teeth during the Margaret Thatcher years. They came into Conservative politics because they believed in her view of Europe. Half of the parliamentary party are new MPs and they are overwhelmingly Eurosceptic. Nothing unites them more than their scepticism about what Brussels stands for. STOURTON: Can you be a little bit more precise about what you mean by the term ‘Eurosceptic’ because it can cover quite a number of different opinions, can’t it? MONTGOMERIE: Generally I think you can hardly find any Conservatives who believe that Europe should have more power. And then you I think roughly can divide the party up into thirds: a third want to manage the situation down, take a few powers back here and there, certainly not give up any more; a third want a fundamental renegotiation of our relationship with Europe; and probably a third want to come out of the European Union altogether. STOURTON: There are currently 307 Tory MPs in the Commons. If there really are more than a hundred who want to come out of the EU altogether, a very large number of them are being very coy indeed. The Better Off Out group, which campaigns openly for withdrawal, counts only 10 Conservative MPs among its membership. And withdrawal is of course the official party policy not of the Conservatives, but of the UK Independence Party. Douglas Carswell, an Essex backbencher, is one of those who has put his head above the parapet by joining the Better Off Out group. CARSWELL: I would campaign for us to come out of the European Union. But I’m very much a member of the Conservative Party and I’m going to stay in the Conservative Party and I think it’s the Conservative Party that will, I hope, make these things happen and deliver on a referendum and deliver on the process of disentanglement that then needs to follow a referendum. I don’t think the United Kingdom Independence Party, with the greatest respect to them, can deliver on that. 5 STOURTON: So just to be clear, even though your position actually on Europe is closer to the UK Independence Party than it is to that of the Conservative Party, for reasons of realpolitik, if you like, you remain a Conservative? CARSWELL: I don’t think that’s strictly true. I think my view on Europe is pretty mainstream amongst the Conservative Party now. It’s certainly mainstream amongst the activists, amongst the grassroots, amongst the membership. I think it’s becoming increasingly mainstream amongst the parliamentary wing of the Conservative Party in Westminster. STOURTON: At the last European elections in 2009 UKIP actually won more support than Labour, but at last year’s General Election the party managed only 3.1% of the vote, and didn’t win a single seat. With our first past the post electoral system it is very unlikely to establish much of a presence in the Commons in the foreseeable future – so what really matters at the moment is the tide of opinion among Conservatives. The flashpoint for the Tory war of the 1990s was the Maastricht agreement – the Treaty which transformed the old European Community into the European Union we have today. Britain of course secured an opt-out from the single currency, but Eurosceptic Conservatives still felt the Treaty involved giving up too many powers. The Maastricht rebels, as they were called, tried to rally opposition around the banner of British sovereignty. Today’s Eurosceptics say their focus is different. CARSWELL: There’s a very, very different brand of Euroscepticism now. Previously I think a lot of Euroscepticism tended to be about trying to preserve an old order, a sort of 1950s idea of Britain. The real change there’s been in Euroscepticism is that it’s about allowing us to be self-governing in order to make the sorts of changes we need to sort this country out and put it back on its feet and allow it to compete in the world. It’s a very forward looking movement. STOURTON: But that’s just the sovereignty argument put in a slightly different way, isn’t it? CARSWELL: I don’t think it is. I mean I’m not a constitutional Conservative. I’m a constitutional radical. I think we need more direct democracy and we need to allow people to do politics for themselves rather than have it done for them on their behalf by this remote priesthood of MPs and mandarins in Whitehall. There will need to be cooperation, but you know at the moment we are bolshie, reluctant, disappointed tenants. I want us to have a relationship with Europe where we’re good, supportive neighbours.
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