Ellen Hovde: An Interview Author(s): Alan Rosenthal and Ellen Hovde Source: Film Quarterly, Vol. 32, No. 2 (Winter, 1978-1979), pp. 8-17 Published by: University of California Press Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1211936 Accessed: 19-12-2019 13:56 UTC

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This content downloaded from 67.87.59.209 on Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:56:36 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms ALAN ROSENTHAL

Ellen Hovde: An Interview

Ellen Hovde is one of the most gifted and articulate of cinema-verite editors. Alan Rosenthal interviewed her just after she had finished work on , which posed many of the murderous problems characteristic of editing work in the genre. Hovde produced NET's Head Start in Mississippi, edited Margaret Mead's New Guinea Journal, and has also directed. She is probably best known, however, for her association with the Maysles brothers. She co-edited Salesman (1966) with Charlotte Zwerin, and did the same with the Rolling Stones feature Gimme Shelter. On both Christo's Valley Curtain (1974) and Grey Gardens (1975) she is credited as co-director along with David and Albert Maysles, with Muffle Meyer as the fourth director in the latter film. Grey Gardens is a portrait of two unusual women- (Big Edie) and her 55-year-old unmarried daughter, Edie (Little Edie). They lead a squalid hermit-like existence in a crumbling East Hampton mansion on Long Island. The film shows the intimate details of the lives of the two women, with their strengths and vanities there for all to see; it is a beautifully wrought film. As Rosenthal puts it (the following interview will appear in his forth- coming new book on documentary), Grey Gardens "reveals more about human relationships than almost any film I can remember. "But when it was first shown, it was violently criticized by some viewers as an unethical invasion of the women's privacy (though of course they had given consent to being filmed). Such questions are seldom discussed in regard to documentary, though Rosenthal regards them as pertinent and important. (In this case he "totally agrees" with Hovde on these points.) Since completing Grey Gardens Hovde has produced and directed Middle Age for the "Woman Alive" television series. She directed (again with the Maysles and Muffie Meyer) The Burk Family, and produced and directed several films for "Sesame Street."

Ellen, the last few years you have been associated be a stage director, and didn't find enough work with the Maysles brothers on various films. What to keep me together. I then found a job in a film were you doing before that; how did you come into school as an administrative assistant, got interested films? in film, and soon apprenticed myself to a film edi- Well, I came into films years ago . . . through tor who taught at the school. editing. I had originally gone to drama school to I felt that, at least in documentary film (I haven't

? 1978 by The Regents of the Univ. of Calif. 0015-1386/78/1600-0008$00.25

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had much experience in theatrical film, though films like Susan Starr . . . then there was a film I'm producing and directing one now), the person about the Aga Khan . . . then a film called The who is doing the editing is doing something very Chair, about a man who is about to be electrocuted, like a mix of writing and stage directing: that per- Paul Crump. And there were films with the son is shaping, forming and structuring the mater- Kennedys and so on. ial, and making the decisions about what is really What did you learn during that time about that going to be there on the screen-what the ideas new style of editing totally non-scripted films? are, what the order of events will be, where the Well, first of all, speaking technically, we had to emphasis will be. develop a whole new attitude toward how the film These responsibilities very often rest almost en- would look. The camera wasn't on a tripod any- tirely with the editor. Some documentary directors more and was swooping around all over the place, do sit in the cutting room and take part in these zooming in to find focus and zooming out again decisions, but many do not. Many simply give the (often in the middle of something very important!), editor the footage and say, "when you have a cut, running out of film at the worst possible moments let me know . . .", and they go away. So the editor, -and of course nothing was repeatable, it was real alone, makes absolutely basic decisions-the sort life. So we would cut and patch and discard old of decisions that the director and producer, when conventions and invent new ones. On the good side they come back, have to base their decisions upon. the films had a kind of new vitality and energy that They may have photographic memories or may was very exciting; on the bad, we all sometimes have taken detailed notes about the material . . . tried to push footage around and convince our- they will say, ". .. look, there must be a better selves we had something on film, that we didn't. shot than that" or ". . . we must somehow make But I guess the most important thing we learned the point how poor these people are" and so on- was that you have to take an enormous amount of all valuable criticisms. But the way things are struc- material, shot in real time, and sift it and sort it tured, and whether the film is "working" to make and condense it into a "dramatically told" story. the desired points . . . that is really done in the People who shoot this kind of film shoot a lot, be- cutting room. cause if you are shooting an event that doesn't have Are you talking basically about cinema verite or those predetermined beginnings, middles, and have you worked with the old pre-structured, pre- ends, you don't know where the critical moment is scripted films? How do you get the balance be- going to be-often you don't even know what the tween the director's responsibility and yours? story is going to be. You think you do, because I've worked with all those systems. There are you've got to have something to hold on to when documentaries that are pre-structured-some peo- you're shooting, but unless it's a film like On The ple even record a narration first and then have you Pole, which was another of those Filmmakers films go out and shoot pictures to fit it. Quite boring. -a film about the Indianapolis 500, and you know Yes, I've done that. And then there are those mon- there is going to be a race and there's going to be tages that everyone used to do, usually to music a finish to the race . . . unless it's like that, you . . . commercials still use that technique. It's diffi- don't actually know in a lot of these films what the cult to do well, and it's certainly the editor who outcome is going to be, or who the important char- makes it work if it's going to. But it's in cinema acter will be. verite that the editing takes on the same importance The first person who has to contribute to those as the camera work ... and camera work and edit- decisions is the person who decides to film that ing combined are directing, in cinema verite. particular situation; and then the cameraperson, What was the first veritefilm that you cut? whoever that is, has to make a constant, running Oh, boy! I suppose it was at a company called series of split-second decisions about what's hap- "Filmmakers," with Bob Drew and Ricky Leacock pening and what will happen next and how impor- and Don Pennebaker; and the Maysles were there tant it is . . . The person who is taking sound is as well. We did many films-in fact, we all learned often the so-called journalist or reporter, and he or how to do this as we went along, by working on she is often nudging the cameraperson, saying oh,

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do that, do that, while the cameraperson is doing do independent productions. I make films for this, and this. (If they have a good rapport they "Sesame Street." I'm making right now a dra- work it out between them; if not, well, camera- matic fiction film on a grant from the National men have been known not to shoot any close-ups Endowment for the Arts. I'm involved in a possible simply because they didn't like the person they feature deal, and so on ... and none of these are were filming, or to shoot very badly a scene they Maysles productions. didn't want to shoot. Editors of course also do such What was the first you heard of Grey Gardens things by making a poor cut of a sequence they -of the idea, of the concept? Do you remember don't believe in.) Anyway, I would never minimize its very first moments? the decisions that are made like that in the field; Yes. While I was working on the film, Christo's it is extremely difficult to know whether you "have Valley Curtain, David and Al were starting to something" or you do not. Generally speaking, shoot a film with about her child- people I've worked with have tried to keep shoot- hood in East Hampton. The idea of the film was ing until they have some sense in their gut that that they would go out with Lee and photograph there is a film there . . . that there was some her talking to a lot of people who had known her critical scene in which something "happened." parents, had known her and Jackie, and so on. In Grey Gardens that critical scene was what And we one of the people she wanted to interview was called "the pink room." The scene that is placed her aunt, Mrs. Beale, because obviously she knew very near the end of the film, although it happened a lot about Lee's parents and their early life, and very near the beginning of the shooting. That's Lee the liked her a lot, I think. And it was at that scene where Edie Beale tells a story about a man time that the Suffolk County Board of Health who wanted to marry her, and her mother sent raidedhim the Beale's house and tried to evict them away in 15 minutes. Now Edie told that story, dur-because of "unsanitary living conditions." Lee was ing those five weeks of shooting, at least three put or in charge of renovating the house, by the four times on film, but the particular time she toldBouvier family, who of course got involved in the it in the pink room-for some reason, it had a publicity.lot And so, partly because Lee wanted to of pain in it, in fact she cried when she told her talk to her aunt about the past, and partly because story. And when we saw that, it moved us, weshe had business to do there, she and the Maysles thought we had something. We didn't really know spent a fair amount of their time at that house, what we had; we thought it gave us some kind more of than Lee would have done ordinarily. insight into the relationship between these two David and Al then began to shoot what was go- women, and what kind of pain they could cause ing on, which was of course amazing. Here were each other. these two women who were very flamboyant, very Can we just go back to how you started working theatrical, very funny ... in the midst of a crisis. in close co-operation with the Maysles. You said They were trying to save their house and their way that you had been working on afew films, but dur- of life. The footage began to come back, and ing the last few years you seem to have been work- David and I looked at that footage and he said, ing almost exclusively with them? "Come on, let's just put it together very roughly Yes. I used to have a company with my ex- and see if we can't talk Lee into making a film husband, Adam Giffard. We made films, particu- mainly about the Beales." larly in Mississippi during the Movement, but So in a week and a half we put together a very Adam hated producing and our company more orrough hour-and-a-half film, and showed it to Lee, less dissolved. I then began working more and and she hated it. It wasn't at all what she had in more with David and Albert, and Charlotte Zwerin mind, and she said "Please, I do not want to do as well. I cannot really say why we kept on work- this at all, I want to go back to my original idea." ing together, except that we are all fond of each And David and Al said they didn't want to go back other and seem to get on very well, and the films to that, because this was obviously much more in- that we have worked on together have been things teresting, and she said, "Please give me the nega- we all like and they've been fairly successful. I still tive and let's quit." So they had to do that, because

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they didn't own it. She took the negative and went away, and we all went on to other things and thought that would be the end of it. But no one was able to forget this incredible couple who had dominated that film; we all felt that if there was ever going to be an opportunity to make a film about these two people, we would like to do it. David, especially, felt close to Little Edie, and since he had a summer place out there near the Beale house he stayed in touch with her and talked to her frequently about making a film. And then, when a year had gone by and Lee had done nothing about the footage we had given up, the Maysles decided to go ahead and venture mak- ing a film about these two women. Big Edie didn't really want to do it, at first. Little Edie did. At that point, did David and Al say to you what they thought they had been looking for in this film, what might come out? No, never, they had no idea. Just a sense that the material was there? Just a sense of two charismatic people; that there must be a story there. They have a sublime con-

fidence in sensing that there are people who are GREY GARDENS interesting people and leading interesting lives . . . but what the film would be "about," they had no (who was then the assistant), looked at it together, concept. In fact, Muffie (Muffie Meyer, a co-direc- and usually Al did too. And we just let it wash over tor and co-editor on the film) and I once, during us. We all made notes about what appealed to us, the editing, sat them down with a tape recorder but what I did when I first started working on it and tried to get them to put into words what they was to go for that scene in the pink room, to see thought they were doing, and they were unable towhether that was going to be the strong, pivotal say; they really had no idea even why they were scene we all hoped it would be. interested in these people. The material in general was very strange; you Finally we suggested to Al that he was interested almost couldn't tell if you had anything until you in Big Edie because she was rather like his mother, cut it, because it was very free-flowing, very repeti- and that struck a chord in him . . . he was very tive-it didn't have obvious structure-there were involved with his mother, who had recently died. no events, there was nothing around which a con- David said that it was maybe because he identified versation was going to wheel, there were no other with Little Edie because he too was afraid of get- people in and out of the house except for Jerry, ting married, and was very attached to family. But and Lois Wright. It was all kind of the same in a that was as far as they could come with any rea- gross way, and you had to dig into it, try to find sons for making the film. The big reason was just motivations, condense the material to bring out that they wanted to do it, and so did Muffie and I. psychological tones. You and Muffie are listed as co-directors of this Did you start editing before you had all the ma- film. What exactly does that mean? When materi- terial, or did you have all the material available al started coming in, what was your function; how and then start to look at it? did you work on the material? I didn't start cutting until we had all the materi- Well, I started before Muffie did. When the al, and I then started on scenes that simply appealed material came in, I and David and Susan Froemke to me. I was not examining myself too closely

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about that either. I was always, I guess, looking weak and fearful ever to have gone and lived a life for relationship, because I felt there was no ques- of her own by herself. tion that the film would turn around a dependency Our second theme was that it was possible that relationship in a family, and that interested me Edie was there to take care of her mother, and very much. When Muffie came, David and I had that her mother was very demanding, manipulative already cut a few scenes, and we all went over what . . . it was she who arranged that her daughter we had, and decided which scenes we would cut couldn't leave, because she needed someone to next. I think we were pushing in film terms towards wait on her and didn't want to be left alone. Our a novel of sensibility rather than a novel of plot. third theme, the resolution of the other two, was We were still pretty much cutting things that that we we wanted the audience to feel finally that the liked-that were funny, or had emotional outbursts relationship was a symbiotic one, and that on both from Edie, or songs from Mrs. Beale. Because sides,the the need to care and be cared for was equal "raid" by the Board of Health had been such a ... it was a balanced situation of dependency and traumatic experience for the Beales, they talked strength, love and hate. about it constantly, and we felt we had to deal with Did Al and David come in on the structuring, that and we cut a lot of material relating to it. or was it left to you and Muffie? Al never comes in on structure; he has never, to Sometimes when you are doing a veritefilm, the my knowledge, been in on the structuring of a difficulty is defining what the film is about. You film. David wasn't involved in the structure of this are going off in seven different directions till you one very much, though he often is. For one thing, find what it's all about. Was there that problem the editing process was very long, and they had to with this film, or were you pretty clear which direc- go and make some money to keep everything go- tion you wanted from the start? ing, so they were out doing commercials, that sort No, I don't think we were clear at all. I think of thing. Muffie and I structured the film. David we all knew there was nothing in terms of "action," came in when he could. David is always very in- but what was really going on was not clear. David terested in the editing process and sometimes takes thought in the beginning that the issue was, would part, but here the main work we did together, Edie leave or not. Well, for Muffie and me that except at the very beginning, was at the end. Then, was never an issue. We felt absolutely certain that there were certain scenes that Muffie and I wanted Edie had no intention of leaving, and that her to have in, that he didn't want; there were some talk about leaving-which she did all the time- that he wanted and we didn't want. We traded off was simply one of the devices that she and her on those. David, of course, is the producer, and if mother used as a kind of conveyance of feeling ... he really puts his foot down and you are unable to that neither had the slightest intention of changing convince him, you give in. I would say, nothing was the balance of power, or the situation. In fact, we ever done without David's agreement. felt that each knew exactly how far the other could You mentioned those scenes that you traded off, be teased or goaded or pushed, before causing an scenes you wanted and David didn 't. Can you tell action which might actually change the situation me about these scenes? . . . and then each withdrew, because it was the Yes, Muffie and I wanted a scene in, which first battle, and not changes, that interested them. of all was very nice in terms of photographic The main themes that Muffie and I decided to variety. It was shot from the garden, looking up at go with were the questions around "why were Little Edie in a window-she was shouting down, mother and daughter together-so together that talking about politics, and was complaining bitter- they almost totally excluded the rest of the world?" ly about the local Republican politics. And then And in order to build audience interest, we began she went into a general statement, quite a funny to structure the material so that first, it would be one, about politics in general and Republican poli- possible for the audience to believe that the mother tics in particular. It was very witty and always got was strong, witty and charming, and was taking a laugh, and was a lovely change from always being care of Little Edie, her daughter, who was too in that bedroom.

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But the real reason why we wanted it was that it showed Edie in a moment that was not narcissis- tic . . . she was showing that she did read, that she was aware of public events, that she thought about them and that she had very strong opinions about them. We felt that it was a very strong card to play in presenting her character, because she does come off so easily as a completely narcissis- tic and dependent person who is unaware of any- The Beale house in GREY GARDENS thing outside her mirror. She is not like that, and so we did feel strongly that the scene should be in. In fact, we were constantly putting it in, and David Was there any material that you felt was too was constantly taking it out. painful or too private to include? I want to get on Why did he want it out? to that question because many people have criti- David was never able to explain to us satisfac- cized the film for being too exposing of the women. torily why he wanted it out. He said that it was They say that it should not have been made, and self-serving, that he simply didn't like it, that he so on. What were the judgments or the self-censor- didn't want Edie talking about politics. I think it had ship, if at all, that you used on the film? something to do with the fact that he thought it was I don't think there were any too painful or too some kind of cheap shot for a Kennedy-related private events that they talked about. I don't think person to talk about Republican politics. That's we eliminated anything because it was too private, about as close as I could get to his reason, and he except certain physical scenes of Edie's partial finally said "It just has to go, I will not have it." nudity. She wore very odd, wonderful, make-shift What are the scenes that he wanted in and you costumes, and sometimes they were really very, didn't want? very revealing. We always eliminated those. Let's see. The beginning, I'm not fond of ... I think we felt in the footage that there was a the way the newspaper scene worked. I wanted to certain need to balance out the two women, and it start the film (and Muffie did too) with a dolly was hard to do. Mrs. Beale, who was a very, very shot down Lily Pond Lane where the Beales live; strong personality, often came off as extremely on that road are enormous houses with espaliered cruel and bitchy and ruthless; and in a way we al- trees, and fancy gravelled driveways-they are very most wanted to protect her from making that kind elegant. And we thought it would be wonderful to of impression too strongly. It was partly true but it just go right past those houses and come to the wasn't the whole story. For one thing, Edie's ways Beales' house. You would be immediately saying a of getting back at her mother were cruel too-she lot. You would be putting them in a context. Now handled her mother by withholding, by delaying both David and Al were adamant about that they information, food, whatever. She was just as in- would never do that shot. Al said, "I don't care volved, just as manipulative in her way. But her where this house is, it could be in the middle of way was much harder to present on film, because Harlem, and the story would be the same." Muffie Mrs. Beale's way was with wit and charm, which and I don't agree at all; we think the story has always attracts people. It was one of the things we very much to do with the society, and the place, really struggled with. and the contrast of the way they live with the way As for exploitation, Muffie and I worried a people live around them, the class they come from great deal during the cutting about exploiting and how they deviated from that. We think it's them, and exposing them to ridicule from people critical. who wouldn't understand them, and so on. David And Al did not? and Al never did. They felt that everything that He refused to shoot it. He did do some still shots had gone on was all right, and that if the Beales of other houses and scenes in East Hampton, and revealed themselves completely, fine. And I think we used those, which helped a lot. that they were absolutely right.

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I think that really what happens in that film is that in New York. However, no one stops to re- that an audience is amazed and identifies with member they managed their own affairs all their them, and is frightened, maybe repelled. But lives.when No one tried to institutionalize them, and it is people say that those women were exploited, I presumptuous to make decisions for other people think what they are really thinking about is them- about what they do or do not understand unless selves. they are really incompetent, and I do not think I think basically all verite films are criticized that they are incompetent. You get into the issue, on that ground that you are invading someone's well does a person really know what they are re- privacy, just by pointing a camera at them. On the vealing, and I don't think that it is possible for other hand I think that people are aware in our anyone to really know what they are revealing. society of what a camera is, and very aware of what That is a risk that you take, but they took it glad- they ought to be doing in front of it, so unless a ly, and I think that they were very courageous to person is really non compos mentis it is pretty hard do it. to put someone in a film with their own knowledge At what point did you know, "that's it, the film and consent, without them having a very good idea is finished." That you had it completely, when of what is going on. there must be a tendency to go on, to change or to Now the criticism in this film is that they did not play around? have any knowledge of what was going on, but I Well, Mufffie and I worked it into a form where think that they did. At the time of cutting it, I we thought we had something basically along those was not sure that they did, but since it was made, lines that I described, "did Edie stay to care for it is clear to me that they knew and accepted a mother, did her mother keep Edie to protect her, great deal about themselves, that other people had or were they both involved and were both fulfill- no idea of. ing needs of their own." That was our base line. The Beales themselves were the ones who really When we had that, we had been working a long defended the film more than anyone. They saw the time, and we began to screen the film for just a film at their house and loved it. I thought-fine. few very close friends, to see whether they were get- That just means that they recognize themselves, ting what we thought we had gotten out of it, not but when they see it with an audience, and the knowing anything about the Beales. audience begins to pick up on certain things, and There were confusions, and certain people were to laugh at certain things, their reaction may upset about certain things. The most interesting change. I sat with Edie at Lincoln Center when she thing that happened (I think it happens always saw it for the first time with an audience. She for people who edit film) is that if you invite some- laughed, she cried, she enjoyed it. She treated it one to see a film that you've never shown to any- almost as if it were someone else, and yet she real- one, they don't have to say a word. Just the fact ized very well that it was herself and her mother. that a stranger to the film is sitting with you, And then, in the months when there was a lot throws you into the audience yourself. Your own of controversy about it, it was Mrs. Beale and Edie perceptions of the film change completely, and you who called us and said, "You know there has been begin to see it for the first time as an audience this criticism-don't worry. It's all right. We know yourself. that it is an honest picture. We believe in it. We That is what we tried to do and it was very suc- don't want you to feel upset." That was their atti- cessful for us. We saw the film in new ways and tude and they never wavered from that. began to really hone it down. We had a blackboard Some of the things that people have said to me thing with three-by-five white cards with scene when I go around and speak about the film are, numbers on them, and we really spent a lot of time "Well you know, those two are not quite right in shoving them around, saying "Let's take this scene the head, and therefore they are not responsible where Edie shows that she can swim (which means for themselves, and therefore you had no right to that she has a kind of style and confidence) and expose them in this way. They had no idea of what put it ahead of the little bit here. What will that they were revealing." Actually I've mostly heard do?" We played with that until we were almost

This content downloaded from 67.87.59.209 on Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:56:36 UTC All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms ELLEN HOVDE blind. And once it settled down, it began to lock down almost like a crystal formation, and began to be impossible to move whole blocks of scenes apart. They just seemed inevitable, and the film (quite rapidly, I think) finally got locked down. You said that all the material had been finished before you started editing it, but did you find there were still things you would really have liked to talk to David and Al about, saying, "We need you to film this-to do some more filming-to help us with the structure and the form. " EDIE: I got fat not wearing clothes for two years. Well we did do that, and they did go back and MRs. BEALE: Oh, that wasn't it-it was the quarts do more filming. and quarts of ice cream. My bill was $171 Do you remember the things you asked them to just for ice cream! shoot? We never asked them to go back and ask the I guess it changed my feelings very much about Beales to talk about anything. That is a cardinal cine'ma verite. I felt we were pushing it in a new rule with all of us. It is something you don't do. direction, and so did Muffie. You know the kind But we needed a few things technically to smooth of axiom of the people who invented verite. They a few transitions. Cutting around two characters in were all cameramen, and they had really objected one location, changing costumes every day, really to tampering with reality. Reality to them really is a terrible problem, so you are always trying to means you photograph it as it happened and you think of ways to cut, and things to use as cutaways. do not cut it. It is just happening. You hear Penne- There are certain scenic things that we wanted- baker say this, and Leacock will say it, and I am certain things that Al had done but weren't quite sure Al will say it too. right, like the shot of the moon at night over the It is just patently untrue, you know; all those house. We said "Do that again, Al, and do it bet- films were always cut. The difficulty in condensing ter." There was also the tracking shot we wanted of reality is that it is not written as well as O'Neill. the other houses in East Hampton. Al finally com- It is not as economical. And when you try and con- promised. He didn't give us the track but he gave dense it into film time, you very often find that the us a number of individual shots. They weren't whole scene is falling apart. If the audience could quite as elegant as the simple shot, but they did the sit there and watch for 30 hours the material would trick. be wonderful. But they won't. So you have to con- One of the other problems with the cutting was dense, and it falls apart. that these women talked on top of each other all So the first real problem is to condense "real the time, and there was almost no room tone- time" into "film time" without it losing the very no silences. As one conversation finished and you quality that you liked so much about it. It was wanted to say, "Bam, that's the end of the scene," also very difficult in this film but it is was the inter- the other voice would begin. This made for certain esting thing about it, how to make a film about unsolvable problems. So we said, "Go back and try process, rather than events. We were really trying and get Edie to repeat this sentence." Edie was ato take real people's lives, and the interactions be- pro. She could hear the original recording and tween people, and make that interesting because it then repeat it with the same emotional tone. We is psychologically interesting, and not because never asked her to say something that she had not something is going to happen that you are waiting said, but both she and her mother were able to give for. you a new line that was clean. It is, as I said, a novel of sensibility, and in the How did working on Grey Gardens affect your end slightly Proustian, though I don't mean to be general feelings about what verite could and arrogant about it. What I mean is that if you can couldn't do? interest an audience and hold them, because you

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are trying to do something psychologically reveal- Then sometimes you just get tired, and you can- ing, that is a new way to think about verite. One not think about an alternate way of doing some- of the things we did like that, for instance, was thing-you are locked into it-and then your friend the story that I talked to you about, in the pink says, "Well, give me that scene, and I'll try some- room. That was one of the critical scenes where thing slightly different." And we would just trade Little Edie cries about the fact that her mother scenes, sometimes in the middle, if we were stuck, sent away the man who might have married her. or we would do complementary scenes. We always Edie told that story several times. We used it discussed the film in the morning and tried to be twice in the film; she tells the entire story earlier pretty sure that we had the same ultimate goal. in the film and she laughs about it, and then she But then it is just gravy after that, delightful to repeats almost word for word the dialogue, and have someone to bounce ideas with. cries about it. There were many other smaller in- It is unusual, but not, I think, all that strange. stances in the film where we did repeat informa- Musicians do it a lot, Rogers and Hammerstein, tion, because we were making a film about an ob- Gilbert and Sullivan. And film is a kind of commu- sessive, repetitive relationship, and what we wanted nal thing anyway. I have never believed in the to show our audience were not the words but the auteur theory of film, with certain very few excep- emotional affect and the tone. The words were tions. In verite I do not know of anyone who really simply like Pavlov reactions. The story would createsjust the whole thing by himself, and I think it is roll out, and the responses would be there auto- nonsense to say that it is done by one person. All matically. But what was really going on, was thatof this started, I think, because we had four direc- their relationships had different emotional tones tors on the film. The reason we have is that there at different times, and they were expressing theirwere four directors on the film, and the responsi- needs that way rather than by events or by varying bility and the creativity was shared equally. The their conversation. And they did not have to haveword is a little misleading. Al hates the word "di- very much conversation, a couple of topics would rector" because he feels that it implies that he told do. people what to do, which is not the meaning at all. Now all this is very risky for the film maker It be- means that we made the film, and that it would cause you hope an audience will understand that have been a different film had any of us not been and will go with it and will bear with it, even at there. times when it might seem boring. But your hope is If the root of politics is power transactions then that they are hooked enough that they will stick this is a very political film, wouldn 't you say? with you and come out the other end and not feel Yes, very much so. It is political in the sense that that they have been bored. it is dealing with human relationships, a very How did you work with Muffie? I find it very modern situation, where people were living in inti- unusual to have two editors. Are your tastes very mate contact with maybe only one other person. similar? Today, living in nuclear families, we expect the Yes. First of all I like very much working with other person to fill all our needs, and we to fill all other people. I have worked frequently with theirs, and people get into very bizarre situations, Charlotte Zwerin and Charlotte, Muffie and I even in quite ordinary-looking homes. When peo- edited many of the Maysles' films. Charlotte and ple see Grey Gardens sometimes they think, oh my I feel, and I think Muffie does too, that there is God, are they crazy! That may be your first reac- an advantage in several editors. There is so much tion, but I think most of us feel that there is a lot footage coming in; for example in Grey Gardens that goes on between those two people with which we had a minimum of 80 hours of sync footage, we can identify. Intimate relationships are very and then 70 reels of wild track, and 30 to 40 reels complicated that way, they are power transactions. of other stuff. One person cannot really hold all of You are dependent on each other, you are trying that inside without help. If you can share that bur- to manipulate each other, you love each other, you den with someone who has sensibilities close to hate each other. All of those things are happening your own, it is just so much easier. on top of each other.

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Now inin America,America, which which is is such such an an open open society, society, Little Edie's reaction to remarks like that was, we claimclaim thatthat we we admit admit everything, everything, but but the the fact fact is is "Well, if you are 58 and your thighs are going that wewe admitadmit very very little. little. People People are are frightened frightened flabby, too, that is how it is." to see another person reveal that much about It is hard for people to accept that you can say themselves, apparently without shame. It is very something that was really deeply cruel to someone, upsetting for some people to think that Mrs. Beale and then say, "By the way, please, pass the sugar." does not mind having her sagging flesh out there The sugar is passed and life goes on. And if in on the screen. I have heard old women say that it verite you can really begin to show people that is not decent, and how could you be so cruel to that is how life is lived and that people survive show the flesh hanging off her arm. Well, as a mat- that experience, I think that is a very political ter of fact, the flesh is hanging off her arm, and thing to do, a very important thing to do.

MICHAEL DEMPSEY

Invaders and Encampments: The Films of

Despite all the serious film criticism which screenplayhas of of his his next next one, one, The The Wanderers), Wanderers), he he been published in America during the past fifteen lived inin CaliforniaCalifornia for for a time,a time, then then spent spent a couple a couple years, important artists continue to be neglected- of yearsyears in in Europe Europe and and Israel, Israel, where where he taughthe taught none more so than Philip Kaufman. During thesesome English,English, read, read, wrote, wrote, studied, studied, and and saw sawkey key same fifteen years, he has managed to make movies-not five just just the the first first fruits fruits of theof theNew New Wave Wave distinctive movies-Goldstein, Fearless Frank, but earlyearly films films by by Pier Pier Paolo Paolo Pasolini Pasolini and andtwo two The Great Northfield Minnesota Raid, The White famous AmericanAmerican independent independent features, features, Shadows Shadows Dawn, and now Invasion of the Body Snatchers- and TheThe Connection.Connection. Convinced Convinced that that more more movies movies in the teeth of all the setbacks and agonies which like thesethese could could be be made made in inAmerica America despite despite the American studio establishment customarily Hollywood's closed closed doors, doors, he hereturned returned to Chicago,to Chicago, inflicts on original film artists: indifference, studied thethe standard standard film-making film-making textbooks, textbooks, shot shot blundering interference, inept distribution, firing with aa hiredhired cameraman cameraman to toget get first-hand first-hand experi- experi- -the lot. A European of his ability and achieve- ence. ThenThen he he and and Benjamin Benjamin Manaster Manaster wrote wrote and and ments would be able to work as steadily as Truffaut directed Goldstein Goldstein together together on ona budget a budget of $50,000,of $50,000, or Chabrol or Fassbinder or Bertolucci or Herzog after whichwhich he he raised raised another another $150,000 $150,000 and andmade made or even Rivette. But in America, as John House- Fearless FrankFrank by by himself himself under under the the title title Frank's Frank's man has said, they dare you to make movies. Greatest Adventure. A Chicagoan, Kaufman spent a year at Harvard Although these films were shown to some ac- Law School, took a degree in American history claim at the Cannes festivals of 1964 and 1967, from the University of Chicago, and tried novel- neither got much attention in the United States, writing for a while during the early sixties. Alongwhere major studio distribution is almost manda- with his wife, Rose (who has worked and acted tory for extensive showings. A now-defunct com- in some of his films and wrote the first-draft pany got a few bookings for Goldstein, but Frank

? 1978 by The Regents of the Univ. of Calif. 0015-1386/78/1600-0017$00.25

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