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DÁIL ÉIREANN AN COMHCHOISTE UM OIDEACHAS AGUS COIMIRCE SHÓISIALACH JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND SOCIAL PROTECTION Dé Céadaoin, 6 Márta 2013 Wednesday, 6 March 2013 The Joint Committee met at 1.10 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Deputy Ray Butler, Senator Marie Moloney, Deputy Derek Keating, Senator Mary Moran, Deputy Charlie McConalogue, Senator Averil Power, Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin Senator Diarmuid Wilson. Deputy Jonathan O’Brien DEPUTY JOANNA TUFFY IN THE CHAIR. 1 POverty ISSUES: DISCUSSION WITH EUROPEAN ANTI-POverty NETWORK The joint committee met in private session until 1.30 p.m. Poverty Issues: Discussion with European Anti-Poverty Network Chairman: I welcome the representatives of the European Anti-Poverty Network, EAPN, who will address us on their experiences in dealing with poverty in Ireland and their views on the new EU fund for food and clothing for those who are homeless and in difficulty. I welcome Mr. Robin Hanan, director of the European Anti-Poverty Network in Ireland, and Mr. Paul Gin- nell, policy and support worker. I draw attention to the fact that, by virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of their evidence to the joint committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to do so, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privi- lege in respect of their evidence. They are further directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable. I also advise our guests that their opening statements will be published on the committee’s web- site. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice I have just outlined. I invite Mr. Hanan to make his opening statement. Mr. Robin Hanan: We thank the joint committee for its invitation. We circulated a submis- sion, but there was a slight misunderstanding in that regard. We understood our submission was to be made in the context of The Spirit Level; therefore, there are a number of references to that book, which might seem somewhat strange. However, we can explain them as we move along. Essentially, we want to talk about the way in which the recession has affected poverty levels and impacted on equality in Ireland. The members of the European Anti-Poverty Network in Ireland are local, community-based anti-poverty groups throughout the country and national organisations dealing with issues such as homelessness and groups such as Travellers and lone parents, as well as community development projects, family resource centres and so forth. Members come together in our network to find ways of influencing policy and putting the fight against poverty at the top of the Irish and European agendas. We are very concerned that while there has been a lot of talk about the importance of protecting the most vulnerable since 2008 and the onset of the recession, in practice, according to our members and all available statistics, the issue of poverty is sliding down the agenda. The Spirit Level, by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, talks about the importance of equality to the whole of society. It argues that more equal societies, in almost all cases, are more successful in being more cohesive and having better health outcomes, not just for people experiencing poverty but for all of society. Physical and mental health tends to be better, while levels of crime and imprisonment are much lower in more equal societies. Issues such as drug abuse are very much symptoms of unequal societies. The issue of trust is very closely linked, as one would expect, with how equal or divided a society is. Our members’ experience is that these issues have a particular resonance for those living on very low incomes, suffering dis- crimination, living in communities with high levels of long-term unemployment and affected by poverty in different ways. Ireland has a reputation across Europe because of a number of very important innovations 2 JOINT COMMITTEE ON Education AND SOCIAl PROTECTION introduced by various Governments during the years which have been copied in other countries. I refer specifically to strategies to fight poverty, both in targeting areas of disadvantage and in producing overall national strategies. This dates back to the poverty programmes introduced during the time of the late Deputy Frank Cluskey in the 1970s which were initiated by Ireland and taken up across Europe. This was the very first attempt to put serious money behind com- munities to help them to solve their own problems, as opposed to communities simply relying on services being provided for them. The national anti-poverty strategy of the 1990s set targets and frameworks for progressively eliminating poverty and introduced the concept of poverty proofing, a concept I will be discuss- ing this morning and which has now been taken up throughout Europe. Our concern is that while these initiatives are important in themselves and on paper, they have not been matched by the type of investment needed to secure a more equal and a more participative society. Our handout provides some of the figures - I will not go into the details now - from the latest CSO press release on poverty. Among other forms of poverty the document refers to measur- ing the level of deprivation. This includes the number of people who cannot afford basic things such as heating their homes or buying a warm coat. It is shocking, although not unexpected from our experience, to see that the number of people suffering this type of deprivation has increased by half since 2008 to 25% of the population, and that one third of all children in the country are suffering from deprivation in these terms. Groups traditionally hit by poverty tend to get less coverage in the media than new groups coming into poverty or who are experiencing poverty in severe ways for the first time. Groups traditionally affected by poverty include lone parents, the unemployed, especially the long-term unemployed, Travellers and ethnic minorities. These remain the people worst hit by poverty. The progress we were beginning to make towards the end of the Celtic tiger years and in the last years before the recession have been seriously reversed in recent years. It is not enough for the country to dust off the existing national anti-poverty strategy, which, we believe, has not been fully implemented. We need to consider seriously where the coun- try is going in terms of the fight against poverty. The central idea of the national anti-poverty strategy, which dates back to 1997, is the idea that every area of policy should be proofed for its impact on poverty. This has become part of a broader impact assessment in terms of poverty and inequality. The idea is that the annual budget should be assessed to determine its impact on poverty and that crime strategies, housing strategies, the Finance Bill, welfare strategies, health services and so on should all be assessed in this way. The idea is that all of these should be designed to be a part of the overall fight against poverty and that there should be an all-govern- ment approach driven by the concept of poverty proofing. While poverty proofing continues as a technical exercise and much good work has been done in the Department of Social Protection in terms of trying to monitor policy, we are concerned that it is not part of the public debate about where the country is going or the debate about the jobs, services and welfare supports needed to seriously fight poverty. Our submission includes six steps to be taken, although we will not go into the detail now. However, there will be an opportunity for Deputies and Senators who wish to take up issues to explore anything they believe to be important. The concepts of poverty proofing and impact assessment are central to everything we are concerned about, as is what is often referred to as the triangle of quality jobs, welfare supports to help people out of poverty and accessible ser- vices. We believe these services, including quality health services, quality transport services and quality education services for everyone, as opposed to the two-tier services we often see 3 POverty ISSUES: DISCUSSION WITH EUROPEAN ANTI-POverty NETWORK in the country, are absolutely central. The approach must involve removing poverty traps. We pointed out in our previous submission on the budget that we are concerned that some of the current and recent welfare cuts and changes to benefit eligibility have made it more difficult for people on low incomes to take up work. The work in this area must be driven by an approach that supports community development. This is one of the strongest ideas dating back to Frank Cluskey’s poverty programmes of the 1970s, which represented a significant contribution from Ireland to Europe in this area. The idea is that we put serious resources into supporting community development and into projects run by communities themselves. At the moment the entire community sector is very much under threat in terms of cuts and also in terms of the narrowing of its scope for action and the replacement of community development driven by local people with services. Finally, we need to consider how to attack poverty. This is why we maintain decisions must involve serious investment.