Women's Rising Star:
An Oral Histofv of Women's Theater in the Women's Liberation Movetnent
Interviewer: Sally Kiernan
Interviewee: Leslie Jacobson
Instructor: Mr. Haight
OH KIK 2002
Kiernan, Sally Table of Contents
1: Statement of Purpose 1
IE Biography 2
ni: The Changing Role of Women in the 1970's 4
IV: Interview Transcription 12
V: Interview Analysis 49
VI: Appendix 1 54
VII: Appendix 2 55
VIII: Appendix 3 56
IX: Appendix 4 57
X: Appendix 5 58
XI: Appendix 6 59
XII: Appendix 7 60
XIII: Appendix 8 61
XIV: Appendix 9 62
XV: Appendix 10 63
XVI: Appendix 11 64
XVII: Appendix 12 65
XVII: Appendix 13 66
XVIII: Appendix 14 67
XIX: Appendix 15 68
XX: Appendix 16 69
XXI: Appendix 17 70
XXII: Works Cited 71 ST. ANDREW'S EPISCOPAL SCHOOL
INTERVIEWEE RELEASE FORM:
Tapes and Transcripts
J /^^•=^he 'Jixcch^^aj do hereby give to the Saint Andrew^s Episcopal name of inteniewee
School all right, title or interest in the tape-recorded interviews conducted by
CXMl\i tC'^^Yfinri on 12/2 1/QI. Iunderstand that these nameofimen'iewer ' dd'te(s)
interviews will be protected by cop>Tight and deposited in Saint Andrew's Library' and Archives for the use of future
sludents, educators and scholars. I also understand that the tapes and transcripts may be used in public presentations
including, but not limited to, audio or video documentaries, slide-tape presentations, exhibits, articles or the world
wide web at the projects web site www.doingoralhistor>'.org. Tliis gift does not preclude any use that I myself want
to make ofthe information in these transcripts or recordings. The interviewee acknowledges that he/she
will receive no remuneration or compensation for either his/her participation in the interview or for the riglits
assigned hereunder.
CHECK ONE:
Tapes and transcripts may be used \\'ithout restriction
Tapes and transcripts are subject lo the attached restrictions (Typed)
INTmVIEWEE: INTERVIEWER: 1/
Signature of Irf^fviewee STgnaUueH ^
L(I '-> Ii e^ cj(^c<^<^ to l>o >n Typed Name Typed Name
Address Address
' 7
Date Date
8801 Postoak Road • Polonnic, Maryland 20854 • (301) !)83-5200 • Fax: (301) 983-4710 • htlp:/Avww.saes.orj Kiernan 1
Statement of Purpose
The purpose of interviewing Leslie Jacobson about her involvement in the womeivs liberation movement as the creator, producer, and director of a women's theater was to gain a different perspective ofthe women's movement ofthe 1960's and 70's and the role that different forms ofthe media, such as plays and television, played in it. Orally interviewing a person about a particular event instead of just researching that event provides an entirely different kind of information and understanding of that time in history. This oral intei'view is an important historical tool because it provided not only information about the events ofthe women's rights movement, but it also incorporated the emotional and peisonal experiences that would not have otherwise been heard. Kiernan 2
Biography
Leslie Jacobson grew up in Great Neck, NY, a suburb of New York City. She lived with her father, mother, and older brother. Her father was a successful lawyer and her mother a homemaker whose talent as a pianist drew her daughter toward the arts at an early age. As a child, her family often drove into nearby New York City to see shows, another thing that Mrs. Jacobson feels contributed to her interest in the arts. Leslie
Jacobson attended public elementaty school and public high school. After graduation she went on to attend Northwestern University in Chicago, Illinois. At Northwestern, Mrs.
Jacobson studied drama, but was also enrolled in a number of liberal arts courses. Wlien, as a senior, she directed a Gilbert and Sullivan show, she became the first woman ever to direct a play at Northwestern. After graduating from Northwestern, she attended Boston
University for graduate school. At Boston University, Mrs. Jacobson studied directing and directed many plays. As a student at Boston University, she met her husband and was married. After completing her graduate studies, she and her husband moved to
Washington, D.C. in January of 1973. As a newcomer on the D.C. theatre scene, Mrs.
Jacobson, as a woman, had to create opportunities for herself because there had not been many women directors in the area before her. She paved many roads for both herself and other women directors after her by becoming the first woman hired at the Harlequin
Dinner Theatre and the first woman ever asked to direct the Hexagon Show, a local, semi-professional show done for cliarit)'. Mrs. Jacobson became a part ofthe
Washington Ai'ea Feminist Theatre, which she worked with until its end in 1976. In
1977, she began working at George Washington University in D.C, where, in 1995, she was promoted to the position of Chair ofthe Theatre and Dance Department. Also in Kiernan 3
1977, she helped to create the ProFemina Theatre, which was changed to the Horizons
Theatre after a bad public response to the first name. Throughout her career, Mrs.
Jacobson has produced, written, and directed many plays and musicals that have won her a great deal of critical acclaim. In 1988, she won the Helen Hayes Award for "A.. .My
Name Is Alice," and she has been nominated for the Helen Hayes Award for Best
Direction three times. She has also received recognition from the Dramatists Guild for producing plays at Horizons Theatre. Mrs. Jacobson has also been a part of numerous other important theatrical events in the D.C. area. She currently lives in McLean,
Virginia with her husband and children and works in the D.C. area. Leslie Jacobson has had a vety successftil and recognized career and will continue to be an asset to the theatre community for many years. Kiernan 4
The Changing Role of Women in the 1970's
Burning bras, haiiy legs, protests, pins', posters^, and Helen Reddy's "I Am
Woman." These images instantly come to mind with the utterance ofone word, feminism. The I970's were a time of extreme change in the role that women played in society. Historians have coimnented that "In many respects, the 1970's.. .provided an ideal barometer for measuring the impact on women's status ofthe changes that had occurred during the postwar era" (Chafe 214). The Women's Liberation Movement, as the campaign for women's rights came to be called, started in the late sixties.
Acknowledgement that changes needed to be made in the social structure of society came with the publishing of Betty Friedan's book The Feminine Mvstique in 1963. Friedan's book rekindled feminism, which had been stifled during the 1950's. Unhappiness with life in the fifties led to the desire for change and the eagerness to fight for k. From that point on, feminism became a greatly debated topic that many people felt very strongly about. Wlkle, it would be natural to assume that all women would support feminism because they would be the ones to benefit from the movement, many opposed it.
Femimsts were marginalized and called demeaning and insulting names such as "bra-less bubbleheads" (Douglas 163). Many historians have noted that "feminist" became a dirty word m society because ofthe biased news coverage ofthe movement. As a result, many women were afraid of facing such great opposition (Douglas 165). Wliile some women were afraid ofthe consequences of joining the feminist movement, others simply did not agree with the ideology of feminists. The most controversial subjects were
' Sec appendix 1 through 4. " See appendix 5 ihrough 16. Kiernan 5 childcare, abortion, greater sharing of household opportunities, and ratification ofthe
Equal Rights Amendment to the Constitution (ERA) (Chafe 211). Because there was such a severe divide between feminists and anti-feminists, "support for the ERA became the equivalent of making war against all the traditional values that had made America a great nation" (Chafe 217). Those opposing feminism tried to put an end to the women's liberation movement by making it out to be both un-American and anti-American, when the real puipose ofthe movement was to create an equal foofing for every American citizen.
The women's liberation movement brought women of all kinds together. Women with nothing else in common despite the fact that they were women, were bound together by the movement that, whether they supported it or not, would benefit them ali. Historian
Susan Douglas wrote that,
"There is much that women my age don't have in common. Yet we do have a
shared history of listening to the Chiffons, watching Bewitched, wearing
miniskirts, idolizing Diana Ross, singing "1 Am Woman," watching Charlie's
Angels, being converted by Gloria Steinem, Germaine Greer, and Betty Friedan,
hooting over Dallas and Dynasty (but not missing a single week), and, as a result,
becoming women with a profound love-hate relationship with the mass media,
and with cultural values the mass media convey" (Douglas 18).
As expressed by Douglas, the media played a pivotal role in the women's movement.
While news coverage ofthe rallies and protests ofthe movement helped spread its effects and gain support for it in areas that it had not yet reached, negative press also had a big impact on the support that it received. News programs often shed a negative light on the Kiernan 6 women's liberation movement, by interjecting negative comments into news reports as
ABC anchor Howard K. Smith did when he said on air that, "Three things have been difficult to tame. The oceans, fools, and women. We may soon be able to tame the ocean, but fools and women will take a little longer" (Douglas 163). As a result of negative comments such as these that were heard by people around the country from well-respected reporters throughout the I970's, the word feminism became a dirty word
(Douglas 165).
The Equal Rights Amendment was first proposed before congress in 1923. When it's ratification was denied at that time, no one intensely pursued the matter further. In the 1960's and 1970's, however it became one ofthe main topics ofthe feminist movement. Not only were women protesting for its ratification. Representative Shirley
Chisholni"* spoke before congress on the importance of its addition to the Constitution as an amendment. Chisholm argued that "Discrimination against women, solely on the basis of their sex is so widespread that it seems to many persons normal, natural and right
(Chisholm 1). While there was a large number of supporters ofthe ERA, and it became an integral part ofthe women's movement, those who opposed it did not have many concrete reasons as to why they should. The increased support of feminism and the ERA was threatening to traditional people who were afraid ofthe changes that were being advocated. To those people, feminists seemed to be attacking everything that they believed in, family structure, monogamy, the church, and respect for authority. Afraid of what feminists could, they soon became the "epitome of evil" to many (Chafe 217).
Tlii'ough association, the ERA became the enemy. Due to the growing numbers of people
Shiriey Chisholm was the first African Amerlcau woman lo sene as a Representative. Kiernan 7 opposed to the ratification ofthe ERA, the group STOP-ERA was created. The group whose name meant, Stop Taking Our Privileges- Equal Rights Amendment, was lead by the veiy conservative Phyllis Schlafly who became and remained veiy vocal in her opposition of feminism and changes for women. The sole purpose of STOP-ERA was to keep the Equal Rights Amendment fi'oni being ratified.
Aborfion was a very controversial subject during the I970's. In 1973, the
Supreme Court ruling in the trial oYRoe v. Wade legalized abortion in the first trimester of pregnancy and gave doctors the right to choose whether an abortion was necessary in the second trimester of pregnancy. This ruling was a major gain in the women's liberation movement. By legalizing abortion, women were given the freedom to take control of their own bodies, instead of having them controlled by laws put into effect by men. The main argument of feminists was that the legalization of abortion would decrease the number of deaths due to illegal abortions as well as the number of malnourished children and children living in poverty. In the early 1970's, there were an estimated 200, 000 to I, 200, 000 illegal abortions performed in the United States each year (Leone 170). While many people argued that abortion was murder, many women who were too poor to properly care for a child were forced to have them because they did not have the option of a safe, legal abortion. As a result, there many children were living in unsanitary conditions without enough food to eat. In addition to likening women who underwent abortions to murderers, the bible was used as a weapon against abortion.
Many argued that abortion denied a child the sanctity of life, and that while the children in question had not yet been born, they were indeed human lives. Wlkle there were vast Kiernan 8
numbers of pro-life activists^ pro-choice activists^ were stronger, with more people and
more arguments, and therefore, pro-choice activists were not successful in overturning
Roe V. Wade, as they had set out to do.
The role of women in families began changing when women started working outside ofthe home. For more than two decades preceding the women's liberation
movement, women were expected to become wives and mothers. The underlying unhappiness ki tlks role was one ofthe factors that led to the women's rights movement.
While many ofthe other focuses ofthe women's rights groups were still veiy controversial topics even before they became the focus of these such groups, this was one problem that was not often discussed. As Betty Friedan noted, this was the problem that had no name (Leone 165). While men were encouraged to educate themselves and choose a profession that mterested and challenged them, women were expected to work as teachers, nurses, and secretaries, if they worked at all, because they were more
"feminine" professions. However, that soon began to change. Young women were not
only allowed, but also often encouraged to educate themselves past the minimum requirements. In 1970, the ratio of men college students to women college students in tbe studies of engineering, medicine, and law was 8:1. In 1975, that ratio became 3:1, men to women. As a result of encouragement and increased discussion of women's educational rights and needs, the number of law school applications from women increased 500 percent, while the number of women in "femimne" Jobs decreased by 21 percent. One truth that became a driving force behind the integration of women into the workplace was
^ Pro-life activists are strongly against abortion actively tr>' to have laws legalizing aliortion repealed. "^ Pro-choice activists strongly support the freedom to choose whether to have an abortion or not and played a major role in legalizing abortion. Kiernan 9 that "The intellectual stimulation and sense of acluevement that work brings is as essential to women's well being as to men's" (Leone 165). In response many women set out to discover what type of work would bring them the most stimulation. Not only did women begin simply getting jobs outside ofthe home, they began starting their own businesses and becoming more and more self-reliant.
Plays were not the only way to express the conflicts and changes ofthe times artistically. Television also became an important tool in spreading the ideology and influence of feminism tlu-oughout the country. Wliile the news was an important part of this revolution, sitcoms were equally if not more effective. News programs provided straight facts, while sitcoms supplied the facts about important issues, but in a more sublmiiiial way. The Mary Tyler Moore Show was especially important in the feminist movement. This sitcom was the first television show to have a single, self-reliant woman in the title role. In addition, the character Maiy Tyler Moore had her own job, apartment and did not define herself in terms of her marital status. While at the time, women relied on men, this show portrayed a woman whom both asked men out on dates and ended relationships with ones that she felt were stifling her (Douglas 204). In addition, not only did The Maiy Tyler Moore Show provide a good example of an independent woman, the show's influenced many young women to get their own jobs, in attempts to be like
Moore. Television is a very powerful thing and shows like The Maiy Tyler Moore Show were an effective aide in the women's liberation movement.
Leslie Jacobson is one ofthe women that was strong enough and believed enough in the cause of women's rights to succeed in starting her own business at a time when men dominated the work force. Jacobson created the Pro Femiiia Theatre, presently Kiernan 10
known as the Horizons Theatre in 1977, at the height of feminist controversy. This
theatre proved to be an important addition to society because it served as a place where women would write, produce, and act in plays that were mainly about and composed of
women and issues that they faced. The Horizons Theatre has produced over 40 plays
since its creation, many of which have been nominated for and received many awards
such as the Helen Hayes Award^. After, receiving the Helen Hayes Award for "A...My
Name Is Alice", Jacobson said "Tonight isn't about ^aiid the winner is...', it's about recognizing excellence...we can look back and say, my God, we produced all that?"
(Brown CI). In addition, the critically acclaimed "Mother May I?" which was produced
in 1978, was based upon the unhappiness ofthe role of women at home. The play
chronicled the lives of three women whose families were falling apart due to the stresses
of having motherhood be their only fulfillment, and their feeluig of uselessness as a result
of it. An article in the Washington Post about the play said that,
"There is a feeling for mothers who have grown old, feeling useless and once had
dreams of their own- even if these same mothers won't let go and lay guih trips
on their daughters and push motherhood as the oiky fulfillment" (Brown CI).
Although many argued that women who worked outside of their homes were rejecting
their husbands and children, outside stimulation could have prevented such family
problems as the ones in "Mother May I?" In addition, the extra money that women
brought home from their Jobs kicreased the security, comfort, and stability ofthe family, benefiting all involved.
* The Helen Hayes Award was created in the memory of legendary stage and film actress Helen Hayes. Helen Hayes had been called "the First Lady of American theatre" (Barrow). Kiernan 1 1 brought home from their jobs increased the security, comfort, and stability ofthe family, benefifing all involved.
Begimiing in the late 1960's and continuing throughout the entire decade ofthe
I970's, women's rights were at the center of every political, social, and moral debate.
Great changes and improvements took place during this era of women's rights and in result, women soon received the acknowledgement that they deserved as equals in society. Women now have the opportunity to become whatever they want to be in life, and white there was at the end ofthe movement and still is today, discrimination based solely upon sex, it is no longer protected by law. Kiernan 12
Oral History Interview
Sally Kiernan interviewing Leslie Jacobson
Sally Kiernan: This is Sally Kiernan mterviewing Leslie Jacobson for an oral histoiy project, the date is 12/21/01. Would you tell me about your childhood?
Leslie Jacobson: Sure, I grew up in a suburb of New York City, Great Neck it's on Long
Island, and it was very close to New York City so, I guess.. .it was very suburban, uh, and
I felt veiy safe as a child. You know, I rode my bike anywhere and there were lots of trees and the schools were veiy good, but also the fact that it was so close to New York, meant that we went in frequently to see plays and other performance kinds of things, and so, I sort of grew up feeling that theater was very much a part of my life. In fact one of my earliest memories was when I was in kindergarten my parents took me to see Mary
Martin in Peter Pan and I, then we bought the record and 1 listened to it until 1 had memorized all the words to all the songs.
SK: I did that with CATS.
LJ: Yes!
SK: How involved in your life were your parents? Kiernan 13
LJ: They were involved. I mean, they certainly encouraged.. .1 had an older brother, he was four years older and we had pets, but it was otherwise just the two of us and my parents, and I would say that they were, very supportive and involved and interested in what we were doing. And, my mother did not work outside the home so she was, you know, around a lot.
SK: And my next question is what role did your mother play m your family? She was a homemaker?
LJ: Yes she was, but she also played the piano extremely well and, uh, sort of grew up when jazz and the great popular songs and musicals ofthe 1930's and 1940's were at their hay day. So, that was the kind of music she played. She didn't play classical music she played popular music, so many nights I would stand by the piano with her and, you know, we would just go tluough song books and 1 would sing and she would play so I definitely think my love ofthe arts, uh, I mean both my parents appreciated it, but those things came from my mother.
SK: And, what role did your father play in the family?
LJ: He was a lawyer he worked in Manhattan and when I was little we would drive him to the commuter train every morning and I actually thought he worked in the train station because every morning we would drop him off there and eveiy night we would pick him Kiernan 14 up there. So, when I was really, really little that's where I thought he worked. He worked veiy hard, he was ambitious, he was veiy successftil, he certainly was a strong part of our lives, but especially when we were little he wasn't around as much, because he was caught up in his work.
SK: What did your parents teach you as a child about what role women should play?
LJ: I think that both of my parents encouraged me, I never thought that I wouldn't go to college. And, I mean I think I had an expectation that I would marry and have children because sort of everyone around me in the suburban world seemed to be maiTied and have children, and that is certainly what my parents did, but my mother had worked until she got married and she got married in the early 1940's in an era when a iiiamed woman, you know the feeling was a nianied woman shouldn't take a job away from a man. So, but, but, I knew that she had worked, and I, so I think that there was a certain expectation that I was supposed to make as much, you know, that I was supposed to develop myself and that I wasn't just going to wait until the right man came along.
SK: Do you think that was different than most people? The influence most people had from their parents at the time?
LJ: That's a veiy interesting question, I would say that that probably might be true.
Most ofthe people that I grew up with had the expectation that they were at least going Kiernan 15 to go to college whether they married or not, or worked or not. And, I think that had to do with the economic, you know the sort of suburban life style, so, so I would say that most of my friends thought that they were going to go to college, but whether they thought they were going to, you know, so of work as equals to men. I'm not sure because
I do have to say that one thing I've noticed when I was little in the kind of upper middle- class world that I was growing up in, if you were in a nursery school situation before kindergarten, it was because your mother was divorced or widowed and she had to work outside the home. And that eveiybody I knew didn't go to school until you went to public school, whereas when I had children I would have felt that I was depriving my children ofthe right start if I didn't put them in child care, I mean, a good, like a
Montessori pre--school or something like that. Everyone I know, I don't mean like when they're really, really little necessarily, but eveiyone I know, when their children hit tluee or four put them in a good pre-sehool. And the idea of not doing that, even if you were at home, k would sort of be, well, you know, what's, why aren't they doing that? Whereas it was completely the opposite when I was little, that you know it seemed like everyone we knew the children were at home until they started public school.
SK: Okay, would you tell me a little bit about your college experiences, and where you went to college?
LJ: I went to Northwestern University. They have a school of drama, which was what I was m, but the first two years you really followed a liberal arts cuiriculum, I mean you Kiernan 16 take some theater classes, but you are taking a lot of liberal arts courses. Which I really enjoyed, and I really liked being at Northwestern. I mean it was a hard transition because that school is right outside of Chicago and so leaving the east coast and going to the mid west was a big change for me. But I uh I liked the school a lot and it was an interesting time to be in college, I was in college from 1966 to 1970, then I went to grad. school, but
undergraduate, I graduated in 1970 and that was the year of Kent State. The Vietnam protests at Kent State University in Ohio, they were students who were protesting the wai-
in Vietnam and the National Guai'd was there to keep order and somebody opened fire, and I forget how many, 20 maybe more students were killed. And so that set off, there had been a lot of protests through the late sixties but that set off a kind of general student
strike all over the countiy. And Northwestern was a veiy conservative campus, my politics were more liberal, but, and the theater students were more liberal, but the
University as a whole was sort of a more consei-vative campus, but when Kent State hit people just went nuts, they pulled, there were these heavy kon gates along Sheridan
Avenue which was the main road. Sheridan Avenue was like this veiy lovely road that
went thiough Edenston and all the way into Chicago, and actually I think it went all the way along the north shore of Lake Michigan. And, they had these iron gates, they pulled
them up out ofthe ground, 1 don't know how they did it, and they bairicaded Sheridan
Road with these gates where the campus of Northwestem was. So, in effect, eveiybody, I
mean all the commuters, eveiyone who lived in these wealthy suburbs ofthe north shore,
who every morning would drive along Sheridan Road to get into Chicago, couldn't do it.
And that banicade was there, and they never put the gates Kiernan 17 back up either, that barricade was there probably for a month. I mean, it was just a veiy turbulent, very interesting time.
SK: Uh-huh, in college were there many issues of women's rights, like were you aware of women's rights issues when you were in college?
LJ: I was not. It was interesting, I wanted to, I didn't know this until my senior year really, but I was always interested in directing, but I didn't really think that that was something that I wanted to pursue completely, but by my senior year 1 knew it was, and didn't think of it as an unusual choice for a woman. Although, later it became clear that it was an unusual choice at that time for a woman. And so, when I graduated, before I graduated, my advisors suggested that I apply to some Master fine arts programs in directing. I wasjust going to apply to Ph.D. programs whicli would have been interesting, but not as focused actually, and the MFA programs in directing were actually a better idea for me. I got into Columbia University and Boston University and sometimes I now regret I didn't go to Columbia, but at the time Columbia was a hotbed of a lot ofthe student revolutionaiy stuff And, where it was situated, up in, you know, near Harlem in New York was not considered a particularly safe area, 1 mean, things have gotten a lot better in New York but it was considered kind of dangerous then. And,
I just somehow as a woman, I mean, maybe if I was a man I would have made a different choice, but as a woman I just didn't want to have to worry about that. And Boston was a place that I had always loved and I had always wanted to go to school there so I went to
BU. Kiernan 18
It was a great program for me and I have absolutely no regrets in that sense, 1 mean I learned a tremendous amount. But, but there weren't that many women directors in the program and when I graduated, I graduated and moved down to Washington, in about
Januaiy of 1973. And that was when I became interested in feminism, because that was when, I, I think that when I was in the university setting, both at Northwestern and at BU,
I wasn't particularly aware of gender discrimination, because although, I have to say I directed a Gilbert and Sullivan production my senior year at Northwestern and 1 was the first woman ever to do that.
SK: Oh wow.
LJ: And, in that, at Northwestern, and they hesitated about giving me the opportunity because I was a woman. But the thing is I never thought of myself as a woman director, I just thought of myself as someone who wanted to be a director. But, it is true, I mean sometimes I forget because I didn't want to like think about the world in gender, in that way, you know, You*re a boy, you're a girl. That means you do this or you do that. So, but, so I forget how the world was so veiy different. When I was at Northwestein, uh, rather BU in graduate school, I didn't feel in any way, treated differently because I was a woman, or taken less seriously or anything else. But, when I came down here in January of 1973,1 got married at the end of my graduate studies and my husband had a job opportunity in Washington and one in Michigan, sort of in the middle of nowhere.
And, so we feU Washington, I didn't have a job Imed up but this would be a good place for me. And it was a good job for him so together we made that decision. Well, then I Kiernan 19 started looking around for opportunities, and there were almost no professional opportunities for women directors. And I became the first woman to direct in at this place at that place. As I went along I was the first woman lured at the Harlequin Dimier
Theater to direct a production, I was the fnst woman that was offered to direct the
Hexagon Show, which was this semi-professional sort of charity thing that was, that's done here eveiy year. There was theater that I became involved with when I moved here, in addition to other theaters that I worked and that was the Washington Area Feminist
Theater and that theater burned brightly and was wonderful for four years and then sort of fell apart, in around 1976. But, for the about two and a half years that I was involved with them, it was a wonderful experience for me and I would say that that really made nie completely aware ofthe women's movement. One thing I will say Sally, when I think back, my mother was a very cultured and cultivated and intelligent woman, but she had dropped out of college during the depression because she felt, she wasn't all that interested in school, to be perfectly honest. She went to Hunter College and she felt that she could be of more help to her family during the depression if she worked, so my father had two degrees. I mean, he had a college degree and he went to Harvard Law School and so I think he felt, well she felt anyway that he looked down on her because she'd never finished college. And she felt that he didn't value her music and her art and her literary interests. Whether this is true or not, that is how she felt and growing up I guess I was aware ofthis. And, I hadn't thought ofthis in ages until you started asking me these questions, but I actually wrote a short story when I was in high school that was about this teenage girl who, she's going to bed at night, I mean I still remember the stoiy because I showed it to my father and it really upset him, but she, I mean I loved him dearly, he was Kienian 20 a wonderful man, but anyway the girl, she's like a teenager, she's me, I mean. And she's going to bed at night and she's sort of dreaming will she be a writer, will she be an actress, you know she has all these ambitions. And then she wakes up in the morning and she starts having all these ridiculous fights with her mother and she, she is so contemptuous of her mother because her mother just stays at home and her mother is just this homemaker and you know she doesn't seem to have any ambitions. And, then, what happens is that the gkl fiends tliis diary of her mother's when she was like this girl's age and she realizes all the aspirations that she had and then how you know she didn't finish college because ofthe depression, and she got married, and she had children. And suddenly she realizes that she is her mother, or you know she could become her mother, and her mother would have been her. And so, when my father read the story I mean he was very upset. Because, I tlknk he was upset at the idea that I felt this way about my mother, but I think it maybe also upset him, you know maybe it made him feel a little guilty. So, I guess in answer to your question about what were the infiuences and what was going on in my house when I was growing up. I guess something was going on because you know I was thinking about this stuff, but there weren't any overt messages that I was getting. There were some subtle messages, there is one other thing.
Once when I was maybe in junior high or something, I did veiy well in school and so I said to my father you know, maybe TU become a lawyer like you. And his, my maiden name was Bravnian and so I said we could open up our own firm, Bravman and
Bravman, and they would all think that it Bravman and son and then they'd come and see. Oh, it's Bravman and daughter. And my father said a veiy interesting thing to me, because again he was a little older when he got married because ofthe depression and he Kiernan 21 was forty when I was born, and so you know again he was a whole other generation, even more of a generation removed than some of my friends* parents. And he had seen women in the 30's tiying to become lawyers and he had seen the resistance in law school to this and eveiything and he basically said to me don't pursue the law, 1 don't, Because I hate to see you have to become what these women became in order to succeed. I'd hate to have to see you do to yourself.. I mean he felt that these women became unusually hard and aggressive and I guess he didn't want to see me become that way. But, what's interesting about that is, again, it was like a casual conversation, but it made a deep impression on me. I'm not sure I would have wanted to be a lawyei' anyway 1 mean I really loved theater, but, but it, but k definitely had an impact on me and I didn't talk about becoming a lawyer after that.
SK: Okay, how do you, besides not being able to get jobs and having to make your own paths in theater, have you ever encountered discrimination because ofthe fact that you are a woman in, throughout your life career?
LJ: Um...
SK: Like, when you were directing was there much opposition like, uh...
LJ: I would say that early on, there were a few people, there were a couple of actors who felt compelled to tell me that they had never worked with a woman director before and I chose to just, ignore whatever they were driving at, you know what I mean, that that I just Kiernan 22 sort of went. Oh, you know isn't that nice you have a new experience. But, I mean I know that what they were really trying to say to me was you know, We don't think you're going to know how to do this, or know what you're doing. So I do, I think it is, uh, true that some men, especially you know you have to remember I was in my mid twenties and if I was working with a male actor who could be fifteen or twenty years older than I, that could be difficult. So, but, but I again I didn't, I chose not to make a big thing about it I just sort of went, oh, ok.
SK: Lucky you, you get to work for me.
LJ: That's right, that's right.
SK: Why do you think the Washington Area Feminist Theater did die out after a couple of years, especially in 1976 when women's rights were...
LJ: Right. Well, 1 would say that I know, I mean I tliink I know pretty well because I was very involved right through that period, and there are a couple of reasons. One is, it had a space that it was using and it lost that space. And that for a theater, when you don't have a lot of money, but if you have a space and you know you can count on, this is when we're gonna do this show or that's when we're gonna do this show. That really helps, and so I think losing the space wasn't the reason that the theater folded, but contributed to that. I think that the real reason was there was some burnout in some ofthe leadership.
But, more than that there came to be a kind of schism within the organization. There Kiernan 23
were some women who really wanted to se the theater a feminist organization that
happened to do theater. And then there were other women, myself included, that wanted to see the theater as a professional theater that did feminist work. And so I think that, also I think that there were...one ofthe tlkng I loved when I joined the group was that there was an age range, I was like, you know, twenty tliree and twenty four, then there were women that in their forties and fifties, and eveiything in between. And that was really wonderful for me to sort of work wkh people of different generations, women of different generations. And there were gay women and straight women, but feminism even until today has all kinds of sexual fear, kind of taboo comiotations for people and I think that one ofthe things, one ofthe problems was that some ofthe women were worried that the theater was going to be too gay, and some of the women that were worried that the theater wasn't going to be gay enough and you know what I mean? So, so, there just was, there came to be a lot of factionalism and a few ofthe people that had been able to hold it together were less involved. And, so I think that that's what happened.
SK: When did you decide that you wanted to start a women's theater of your own?
LJ: Well, tluough working with the Washington Area Feminist Theater and some other small theaters that I worked with at that time, I kind of collected people, is how I like to put it. I mean, people sort of start choosing each other, oh I really like working with you.
I'd like to do more with you. I'd like to work more. And so, somehow a group of us, five women, my, four other women and myself came together and felt that we really Kiernan 24 wanted to work together and were really interested in exploring issues that we had begun to explore with the Wasliington Ai'ca Feminist Theater. And looked around and didn't feel that there were a lot of plays at that point that were about the things that we were really interested in. Now there may have been plays out there, but again nobody knew who we were and we didn't know, you know, there might be some woman in Ohio writing a play that would be perfect for us, but we didn't know about her and she didn't know about us. So we decided that we would create our own work. And so that's what we did, we came together, at that end of 1976, so I really said 1977 was sort ofthe founding moment of Horizons and when we first came together we actually called ourselves something different. We called ourselves ProFemina Theater.
SK: Yea, I saw that in a newspaper.
LJ: And, that was because we.. .1 had heard ofthis chamber music group called
ProMusica and I fek that we in some ways were somewhat Hke that chamber music group. We were a small group of actors, you know, like a small group of musicians and we were drawing on our own personal lives, but then theatricalizing them and changing them and weaving them into plays, the way that individual musicians take their instruments and weave them into music. And we continued as ProFemina Theater for five years and in those five years we created a number of plays that explored relationships between mothers and daughters, men and women, women and women, sort of looking at a contemporary defimtion of success for women in modem society, women and aging. So these were all different issues that we came up with and plays that we Kiernan 25 developed around those issues, that we developed tluough improvisation. But, the plays were not improvised, I mean once they were performed, you know, they were scripted and set and, so we did that for five years. But a lot of people.. .and grew and got some grant support, I mean we were definitely, growing. But there were a lot of people who felt they didn't understand the name, or the name was off putting, or they wanted to go and see the work but they were afraid to go to something that was called ProFemina
Theater, so we felt...there was one critic actually a male critic who completely understood why we called ourselves that. He said that we spoke to the feniina, the female spirit in everyone. I thought that was really great. But not eveiybody felt that comfortable, you know again, I think that although it was a strong period in the feminist movement there was also a lot of resistance and a lot of fear and misunderstanding. So we decided to change the name and we decided to call ourselves Horizons because it seemed more open, you know open vistas and we'd still wanted to have a woman identified name. So it became Horizons Theater from A Woman's Perspective.
SK: How did the outside events ofthe movement help or hinder the theater's creation?
LJ: I would say that it helped. That although there were people who were fearfiil and resistant, there also were a lot of people who were interested, and ftinding sources who were interested in really helping women's art to develop. And, I guess we always felt that there was this really strong need and I think having a strong mission and a strong focus helps an organization. Because then you have a strong identity, you know who you are. Kiernan 26
SK: Wliy do you feel that a theater largely performed by, about, and produced by women was an important addition to the women's liberation movement taking place at the time
of its creation?
LJ: Because there weren't that many plays that put women at the center of experiences.
And theater I think more than any other art form really gives voice to experience, 1 mean, whether it is or isn't k seems the most like real life. Because in ballet people well people are dancing but they're not really speaking, and opera they're singing, and musical
theater they're... you know, but, but when you're seeing live theater onstage it's, it's sort of like you could be seeing yourself up there. And the problem I think was that women weren't seeing themselves up there. That past a certain age you didn't see yourself, there were certain topics that weren't explored, and then when we started doing plays about mother daughter relationships we got front page coverage in the Style section, because nobody was doing anything like that. I mean, we really were doing something that
nobody else was doing.
SK: Feminist Betty Friedan has made the argument that all women need a creative outlet outside ofthe home. What do you think about this statement?
LJ: I think that's tme, I think that, I, I mean I think that you could have that creative
outlet tlu'ough the home. But I think that a lot of what running a home is about is, uli, very concrete, extremely important, and doesn't give a lot of opportunity for personal Kiernan 27 expression. You know I mean, because you have to make sure there's food on the table and you know if you have children that their needs are being taken care of, and doctor's appointments and whatever. And so, I mean, in other words if you are an at-home mother, it means that you're not, you don't have someone else doing all that stuff for you, you are doing ft for yourself And I think that you can start to feel that you are just giving yourself away and that you're losing yourself And I think that's true of everybody, frankly. I mean I think that the busy executive who has golf, or you know, or paints as a hobby is doing the same thing. I mean, that if you are consumed by an important job, then you can be consumed by it and you'll lose yourself and so 1 think. I would agree with her and 1 think it's not just because she's a, you know, because a woman, because k's a woman. I think it is a basic need of anyone.
SK: Okay. You mentioned earlier that you faced opposition from men in theater, like not wanting to have a woman director. Do you think that there was a lot of opposi... opposition from men outside ofthe theater? Like, when you were performing plays were there, was there...
LJ: 1 would say that in general in our early years of marriage, I wasn't like most ofthe wives that my husband... you know of people that he knew. And part of that was because
1 was in theater, so I mean my hours were completely flip-flopped from, you know, the hours of other people. And it definitely cut down on, you know certain possibilities. I think that the fact that then a lot of theater that I did was women's theater, probably was, Kiernan 28
I mean, it didn't stop me from doing any ofthe things that I was going to go, but I think that, that could have seemed.. .that definitely could have seemed thi'eatening.
SK: You mentioned earlier that you did plays, defining, about the definition of success for modern women. What do you think that was?
LJ; Okay, good question. That was interesting, What we decided for that particular show was we had a central character that actually all the actresses in the show took turns playing. And she had an imier self, and, that all the actresses, in odier words if you were the central character first, I might be your inner self Then somebody else becomes her and somebody else becomes the inner self, you know it kept switching. But basically her name was Eva and she was experimenting with different choices in her life to, to find success and fulfillment. And, we defined it as when you inner self, I mean some ofthe contrasts between the external self and the inner self were very, veiy funny because the discrepancy between these two was so huge, the, the disconnect between the two was so huge I mean that she was, the outer self was sort of operating out here and the imier self was like completely feeling the opposite. And so we finally felt that the success was defined as when your outer self and your inner self are most coimected. That women who either, this again, this show came out in about eighty one and at that point, I thkik, I mean I think there still is today unfortunately, but I think there was a lot of pressure on women about what you should be doing. Either that you should stay at home you know, bake bread and you know, be this, you know, herbal and, uh, you know, home remedy and you know, whatever. Or that you should be this high powered you know, woman Kiernan 29
really breaking into important roles. You know, I, I think women, through the women's
movement were really kind of throwing into question what they should be doing at all.
And so the, the problem I think for this central character was what she was doing versus what her inner self felt she should be doing or what her inner self was really feeling. And that rather than saying that a successful woman is a lawyer or a stay at home mom or an artist, what we said is a successftil woman is somebody who's inner self and outer self are in harmony with together. That what she is doing is actually what she feels good and right about doing.
SK: Okay, why did you choose to start your women's theater at the height ofthe women's liberation movement, like right in the iniddle of it and not earlier?
LJ: Well, I think because earlier I was in graduate school, and college and graduate school. I mean, for me it really was you know, the earliest I could do it. And then I worked with die Washington Aiea Feminist Theater you know, and I think that if that hadn't fallen apart I probably would have kept on working with that. So, I mean it really was, the opportunity.. .that, that was the timing.
SK: Okay, in what way do you think the plays you produced and performed pertaining to women's issues affected the progress ofthe women's movement, especially in this area? Kiernan 30
LJ: Well, I would say we always had, and still do have post-show discussions after our performances, and you know, I think that we did affect people's lives. I mean, we had a lot of people anxious to talk with us in these post-show discussions. And telling us how affected they were and sharing their stories. And asking us to do workshops and perform in different places, so you know, I think.. .1 mean, I can't point to a piece of legislation I got passed or, you know. But I definitely, I mean, you know, I know from the kinds of responses that we got from people that we definitely made, affected people's lives and you know, that even tlie people who didn't speak in the discussions might later think about some ofthe issues that we raised. I mean, we did a show, and this was like in maybe eighty, 1980 on what goes tlu'ough a woman's mind when she's thinking about whether to have children or not. And 1 mean this, you know now there's a lot of stuff about that, but there was veiy little and one ofthe things that one ofthe characters was dealing with was infertility. You know, I mean now, let's talk about there are commercials about it on TV, but I mean you know, this was twenty-one years ago people were not talking about these things. So I think that you know, we gave voice to a lot of issues that you know, I'm sure women at the time were affected by and perhaps beginning to think about.
SK: What kinds of responses did you get from people?
LJ: Well people would sometimes want to tell us their stories, sometimes people wanted us to do things that we couldn't do like you know, become their therapists or you know what I mean though. When you see something that deeply affects you and then you start Kiernan 31 talking about it on some level sometimes you actually want you know, or hope that somebody could, help you. And you know, the best we could do was to perfoi-m and to listen. We, we, also did panels, panel discussions, we've continued to do that over the years and workshops that you know, would raise issues about.. .uh, I mean I would say letters, comments, uh, phone calls, 1 mean people that might have been angry about what we did often times they wouldn't bother to respond. You know what I mean? That rather than getting a lot of hate mail, so eveiy now and then on our phone answering machine, especially when we were called ProFemina Theater, we would get some you know, nasty phone calls or heavy breathing. You know, somebody who thought that they were going to be ftinny, but I would say that that didn't happen a lot. Once we had t-shirts that said
ProFemina Theater on it, and once I was walking down the street wearing one of those and somebody shouted some obscenity or something at me, but no, we didn't get a lot of that.
SK: Were the, phone calls and like, were the bad responses usually from men or from women?
LJ: Well, the, I think the heavy breathing and the sexual innuendo stuff was definitely from men, the person who shouted at me when they saw the t-shirt was a woman and it really sort of caught me by surprise. And one thing I will say, although you know.
Horizons Theater has met with, for a small sort of grass roots organization, we have met with a lot of success over the years, but one thing 1 will say, is as in any movement you've got the moderates and the extremists. And I think there have been moments when Kiernan 32
Horizons has not seemed extreme enough to the extremists and has not seemed moderate enough to the moderates. You know, what I mean? That when you sort of go your own road sometimes you know, I mean there's always going to be people who wish you would be more political or wish you would be more universal. And, you just have to kind of do your own tlkng. You know, k's like even with 'I Want To Tell You ' 1 mean, there's some people, whenever we do post-show discussions, I mean last year somebody said, why don't you have more hip-hop in it? I mean eveiybody' s got some idea of what they want.
SK: In 1970 anchorman Howard Smith for ABC said on-air, quote 'Thi'ee things have been difficult lo tame. The oceans, fools, and women. We may soon be able to tame the ocean, but fools and women will take longer.' Unquote. How do you respond to that?
LJ: Now, how would I respond to that?
SK: Yea, like how do you tliink.. .was that a common feeling of people that women needed to be tamed?
LJ: Yea, yea I mean think that definitely historically, I mean you know, men have sort of set die rules for thousands and thousands of years and so I think there's just sometlung that's sort of engrained you know, about, I mean women make sweeping, stereotypical
' One of Leslie Jacobson's plays that performs in schools as well as many other places. Kiernan 33 comments sometimes about men. I mean, oh they're Neanderthals. Or men can't talk about their feelings. And you know, I think all stereotypes are ridiculous, but, it is certauky true that the stereotype, one ofthe stereotypes that men liked to lay on women is the notion that you know, you can't understand them. You can't control them. They're like a force of nature. Ah, but of course, why shouldn't you.. .1 mean, understanding them is one thing. Controlling is a whole different battle and, uh, right it's not thek role to control women any more than it's our role to control men.
SK: Also in 1970, Jennings Randolph who was the senator from West Virginia called the women ofthe liberation movement a 'small band of bra-less bubble heads.' How do you think influential people like Howard Smith and Jennings Randolph hurt the women's movement by expressing their opposing views publicly and in such a demeankig way?
LJ: Well, 1 mean I think that is outrageous and you know, there are still unfortunately in, uh, politics. I mean, why hasn't there been a woman president? I mean why, fnst of all, this modern era that we all live in, why is it that women haven't even had the vote one hundred years? I mean, women have the right to vote in the United States for less than one hundred years, is just astounding when you stop to thkik about it. And you know why are, there are more women representatives in Congress than there have been in the past, but why ai-en't there more women? I mean, em, so you know and its attitudes like this are publicly spoken. You know, and this whole thing about like a woman president, well, what would the, what would the husband do? I mean nobody won-ies about what would the wife do. Kiernan 34
SK: What the First Lady would do.
LJ: Yea, that's right, that's right. I mean, so, yea I think that comments like that are absurd and less hurtftil perhaps today, I mean, people wouldn't say it quite as overtly today, but I tliink under the surface they may feel exacdy the same way.
SK: Wliy do you think this was accepted at the time? Like, they didn't come to much, scrutiny besides from the women in the movement at that time.
LJ: Well, again I think because this, this was a very turbulent period. I mean, you have civil rights leaders being murdered, you had presidential candidates and presidents being murdered. I mean if you look at 1960-1970 and you look at the number of assassinations of important public figures it's really terrifying. And, all of tius was happening during the Vietnam era where by the late 50's you know, the country is really divided in veiy painfiil ways about that. So, I think that the women's movement emerging as part of you know, all these other movements about civil rights and anti-militarism, 1 think in some ways unfortunately people probably felt, tliere's more important stuff going on here. You know, why don't the women just shut up?
SK: Do you think that is one reason why the movement lasted so long? Because there was so much stuff, other stuff that they didn't make as big an impact? Kiernan 35
LJ: I, I think it took a while to get attention. 1 think that of all these movements
mentioned the women's movement was the most complex because, fi-ankly, I mean there
are prejudices about certain groups like African Americans or Asians or whatever. You
could as a honible bigoted person probably go somewhere up in Vermont and never see a
black person. Or if you really, as a horrible bigoted person wanted to avoid Asians you know, you could go to some pocket of Canada. But women, where are you gonna go?
You know, I mean, eveiyone had a mother. I mean, even if they didn't have children themselves or even if they don't have a spouse, eveiyone had a mother. So, it's like, how do you deal with someone who in, on one level is completely integrated into our society
and on another level isn't. And, I think that's why the women's movement, and, and
finally I would say.. .maybe this will come up later, that at times women are our own worst enemies. I think that within the movement itself, or just ainong women themselves there have been, uh, you know.. .1 mean, black women I think have looked at the women's movement as a white movement. And have not necessarily always felt comfortable supporting it. Some women who are essentially homeniakers have felt rejected by the women's movement. I mean, there have been all kinds of misunderstandings so, it's not like you've got this one group of people who have tlks one vision and they're all marching foiward. It's like you've got you know, this kind of large and sometimes amorphous group that has many visions and they're you know, marching in slightly different dkections.
SK: In a review of your play 'Mother May I?'... Kiernan 36
LJ: Oh!
SK: ...whicli I found ki the Washington Post from 1978 the writer Jean White said that
Hhere is a feeling for mothers who have grown old, feeling useless and once had dreams of their own...' What influenced you to write these characters this way?
LJ: Read the quote again.
SK: 'There is a feeling for mother who have grown old, feeling, feeling useless and once had dreams of their own.'
LJ: Okay, and then what's the question?
SK: What influenced you to write these characters tlks way?
LJ: Okay not all ofthe women were like that, but there was one, yes definitely. I think that, particularly at that time, but I think at any time you know as people grow old they start to wonder if you know, they are still comiected to what's going on in society. I think for women, especially in the earlier stages ofthe women's movement, as you know, as an older woman you might look back and feel you know, and look at the next generation and feel, they don't respect me. They don't value what I did. You know, they don't want to do what I did. Because you're not looking at necessarily young Kiernan 37 women who want to be homeniakers the way you were. You would meet young women who in some ways are rejecting what you did. And so I think there was a lot of pain in that.
SK: How do you feel that during the I970's the TV show Mary Tyler Moore had an impact on the women's movement and how do you think that most people reacted to that
show? And how did you personally react to what that show was teaching?
LJ: Right. Well, I loved that show. A lot of people did at the fime.
SK: Actually I'm going to turn over the tape. ...It's very interesfing for me too.
LJ: Oh, good! Oh, good! Maiy Tyler Moore, first of all she was a very appealing actor so what I mean is that a lot of us loved the show because she was you know, just a very charismatic presence on the show. I think one ofthe things that people really enjoyed watching was a woman who first of all was single, I mean she dated, but she wasn't
living to find a man. I mean, she'd like to find a man but that wasn't the whole reason for her whole existence. She had women friends like Rlioda, she had men friends, she was in a work situation where she actually, ultimately, I mean didn't start out with that much power I mean, in her job. But, toward tlie end ofthe life ofthe show she had a fairly, well I guess she always had a reasonably important job, but k got more important. And yet she was a veiy feminine, attractive woman, so how do you, and Kiernan 38
dealing with some of these you know, very vain characters, very... Mr. Grant was this
hard bitten, old news, newsman. So, how does she maintain her femininity and also do
her job? And I think that that's, you know I think people enjoyed k and it was a comedy
so it didn't treat these situations completely seriously. But, I think that that's what
women were asking themselves, and continue to. But 1 mean I think that a lot of women
who finally fought and scratched and finally got into positions of authority had to ask
themselves, okay, how do I maintain my authority and not tum myself just into a man?
SK: And also, I found a lot of information about how many women in the liberation
movement both liked the show for showing her as an independent woman with her own job, supporting herself But also criticized her because she was the only, while everyone
else in the office called Mr. Grant, Lou, that was his name? Yea, she called him Mr.
Grant and she also, they showed her arranging flowers on her desk a lot and not really
doing as much work as the men on the show. How would you think that impacted the
effect it had on people?
LJ: Well, I think, I think there was, I think the reason the show was so successftil, television is a, uh, kind of retro medium. I mean in odier words, television is not a
leadership medium, so you're not going to see on TV cutting edge stuff, you're going to
see, what the people will watch. Maybe with a little feeling of kind of newness and
maybe that's why this show was so successftil. That, in other words Rlioda,
Rlioda, although she was husband hunting and she did want a man, but Rhoda had little
ofthe hard edge and that was okay because she was the friend ofthe main character. But, Kiernan 39
I tlunk that of Mary had been aggressive in the way let's say that the Betty White character was, you know, some of these other characters. Or had been too empty headed like the Georgia chaiacter, people wouldn't have liked her. But, the fact that she, she did have this job, but she did arrange flowers, and she did call Lou Grant, Mr. Grant made her palatable to the vast majority of people who watch TV. And I agree, I mean I think if we wanted to sort of move the women's movement forward, you know I don't think that show or any commercial main stream TV show was going to be willing to undertake that.
I mean I think that that was as good as it was going to get.
SK: Uh-huh. You said earlier that women were often their own worst enemy during this time, how, do you think that this show helped bring the women together by showing that she could still be a feminine woman, but be independent? Do you think that it was helping people, lielpmg gain support from women who were originally skeptical ofthe movement?
LJ; Probably not. Wliat I mean, is I think it was a great show. Maybe in some unconscious way, but I, I don't think...I think after the fact people looked back and talked about that show. I don't tlknk during the watch, the period of watching that show there was that much written about it. I could be wrong about this, I mean your research might have showed you something different, but I tlunk like a lot of things after the fact looking back you realize, olilihh! I bet that's why that was so popular then. But at the time, I mean, because again I think one ofthe big things in the women's niovement was the color divisions and the feeling that black women had had to for generations work Kiernan 40 outside the home and be the major bread wimier. I mean that a lot ofthe things, that they, that I, that I have, I mean I had, we had a number of African Ainerican women who were involved in Horizons and, you know 1 would have conversations with them, but I think that they always felt that if a black organization needed them, in other words they would work with ITorizons, they loved Horizons and we loved them, but that if a black organization called they would have to be there for them. That, their persolutions couldn't be to a women's theater because k didn't feel, feel Ikce, it felt like a white thing, you know? And I think that the movement to many women felt like a white thing.
SK: How do you think that live theater can portray issues of women's right differently than television?
LJ: Well for one thing 1 think that theater in general appeals to a, a, not because it wants to, but just because that's how it is, appeals to a narrower audience and what that means is that you have to serve less mastered. In the sense that, you know, if you're a main stream coimnercial television show and you don't want to get cancelled, you have to have a veiy broad viewersliip. If you want to be a big Broadway musical that costs millions of dollars you have to appeal to a huge viewership. But, if you want to be a small mche kind of theater that does a particular kind of work, you need to appeal to a certain number of people, but you don't have to kind of water tlkngs down to appeal to the broadest range. Does that make sense? Kiernan 41
SK: Yea. Which do you think is better at spreading a more positive message about women's issues, live theater or television?
LJ: Well, television would have the biggest impact because television can reach the most people, tlie problem is that by the time it reaches television usually it's pretty, uh, sappy.
But, I guess, I guess I would do both, you know what 1 mean? That I think, I think the other thing about live theater 1 mean, just with 'I Want To Tell You' as a very small example, I know that there was a TV after-school special I think Ellen DeGeneres was involved in k somehow about, tolerance in high schools you know, and k sort of followed this gay character. Well, uh, National Cathedral School saw the movie one week and the about a month later we came and performed. And they said that they found our performance more realistic than the TV show, but as you know we use masks, and you know what I mean, it's not realistic, it's not natiu-alistic at all. TV, you know in TV you can have the show in the Ikgh school, you know I mean all of that stuff can be veiy real, but, but, so I guess the answer to your question, is I tlknk that live theater, because it's live, because it's human beings there you know, that you could actually touch if you wanted to, I think has a greater impact on the viewer. I think that television can reach more viewers, and probably have a smaller impact on a large, huge number of people. I think theater has a huge impact on a small number of people.
SK: Was there ever any kind of change in attendance to your plays during and after the women's movement? Could you get more support or anything? Kiernan 42
LJ: Change?
SK: Like, change in attendance.
LJ: Oh, I see. I would, well we've had, we've had some problems in the last few years that don't have to do with the women's niovement, have had to do with space and financial support. But, I would say that.. .one ofthe problems Eve seen now is that people seem sort of lulled into believing that while there were inequities between men and women, but, the women's movement solved that and now that's over and we don't have to wony about that anymore. Now let's look at you know, other problems in society. But I think that women, that women reaching equal status and respect in society is an ongoing struggle and I don't think that it's ended. But I think that one of the problems is that you know, in our society everything is about being trendy and I think that you know, that the women's movement, I tlknk a lot of people who don't actually care about the goals ofthe women's movement, it was sort of trendy for a while and so the feeling is sort of, well we did that, now what should we do? Ooh, now let's give money to the firefighters in New York or something. You know what I mean? And, and
I think that the problem is that if you want change you have to be in it for the long haul and, you know that, that there's still a lot of work to be done.
SK: Did you ever find that your plays got more reviews and more attention during, well you kind of Just talked about tlks, but wlule the women's niovement was more popular and prevalent? Kiernan 43
LJ: Yes, I think so. I mean I think now people view us as a theater that you know, has a particular interest and focus, but I tlunk people did realize that, you know, that there were vast areas of life that they weren't thinking about and that you know, when we were able to do productions we were addressing those areas that people hadn't thought about before.
SK: Why although the women's movement has ended do you feel that it is especially important to continue performing plays about women and issues that they face?
LJ: Well, I mean, I guess what I would say is that I don't feel the women's movement has ended. I think that that particular wave, it was veiy interesting we got an award fi-om the Dramatists Guild in like 1988 or 1989, for, producing, the Dramatists Guild is the, national organization of professional playwrights, period. I mean, it's like Actor's
Equity, it's that organization for playwrights. And they honored us for producing plays by women. And so, I went up to get the award and there was like a bunch of panels. One ofthe panels talked about the lack of involvement of women of color and what could we do about that, and one ofthe panels was really interesting. It was talking about the various phases ofthe women's movement ofthe women's movements over the centuries. And you know that, in the late 1700's and the early
1800's there were women wrking about, equality for women, and I'm sure there were before that too. But that was in England, uh, Mary Wollstonecraft^, I don't know if
Seeappendi.x 17. Kiernan 44 you've read any of her writings, but, she actually died in child birth and the child that she brought into the worid was Mary Wollstoiiecraft, who married Percy Shelly and so she became Mary Wollstonecraft Shelly. And, she wrote Frankenstein. But, but her mother who she never knew, but she knew of tlii'ough her writings was a very strong feminist.
And then you've got you know, like I tlunk sort of in the mid 1800's, uh, feminists who got involved with the suffrage, uh, with the, anti-slaveiy movement. And, there was, there was this woman who wanted to wear pants, her name was Bloomer and that's where the term bloomers come from. And then in the, and then in the later 1800's you had the suffrage movenient and you know, Elizabeth, uh...
SK: Cady Stanton.
LJ: Cady Stanton and you know, other suffragettes. And then in the teens ofthe twentieth centuiy you have the suffragettes, uh, and finally women got the vote. Well, and then things sort of went under ground for a while and then you had the movement again starting ki the very late sixties, early seventies. And what happened each time after there was this burst of interest and then things kind of laid low, is that they were sort of backtrackkig. And that's what this woman at this, conference pointed out. She said that there was a building in San Francisco, I didn't even know this, in the early part ofthe twentieth centuiy, like you know, like maybe 1905 or something, that was called the
Women's Building. And like women would go there, it had an art gallery and all sorts of things in it. But, then it, it something, like people lost mterest and it sort of fell apart. On
Broadway, in, in, from 1910 to maybe about 1925, there were a lot of women playwrights Kiernan 45 whose work was being produced commercially on Broadway, nobody called them women playwrights, they were just playwrights and they were making a lot of money.
But, when I grew up, I wasn't aware of, Lillian Hellman was about the oiky woman playwright I knew. When I forget, Marcia Norman might have won the Pullitzer Prize in the 1980's, then Wendy Walsersteen I think won it, and then Beth Henley. And these three women winning this prize, this was like a big deal. And, you know for a while in the seventies people talked about women playwrights as opposed to just playwrights who happened to be women, so what this woman was saying is, be very careful, that we have made strides before historically and then we ourselves get uncomfortable because we are so self-effacing as a group it's sort of like, well is it ok, that, we sort of you know, asked you to think about us for the last decade? We'll go back now, and we'll be. You know what I mean?
SK: Yea, yea.
LJ: I feel like women still don't make as much as men for the same job, you know there is still a glass ceiling. We have never had a serious viable woman candidate for president, you know we are still underrepresented, uh, in Congress, there are hardly any women ambassadors. You know in terms ofthe political power ofthis country, women still really lag behind, and yet people talk about the post-feminist age you know, as if we have passed through feminism. And so, you know I guess what I feel is, in some ways it's a harder batde now because there's less attention, less sort of public acknowledgment that, we need to do something about this. Kiernan 46
SK: 1 found when I was on the Horizons web site actually that you had, they had performed at the UN meeting for the,,.
LJ: In 1980, yes.
SK: Could you tell me about that experience.
LJ: Yea, that was fantastic. What happened was, actually those meetings were supposed to be in Nairobi and what happened was I think that there was a lot of turmoil, political turmoil going on in Africa and people felt that people wouldn't go, I mean they'd be afraid to go, so they moved them to Copenhagen which was great. I mean it would have been tlu-illing to go to Africa too, but 1 loved going to Copenhagen. And what happened was that they decided that there would be an kiternational festival of women's arts, that would happen at the same time, there would be polkical meetings on the status of women were going on. And, someone in Washington who knew about us, got us invited. So we, there were only two American companies that were invited.
SK: Oh wow.
LJ: And, we were one of them. And so we did this performance, you know they had performances all over the city and galleries, you know, I mean street side galleries and already established galleries that would turn rooms over to women's work. I mean, it Kiernan 47
wasjust very exciting. And, we got a wonderful audience response and then we did a workshop and we had people from all over the world and since a lot ofthe work that we did used movement, the fact that not eveiybody spoke English didn't seem to matter.
So...
SK: Okay, now I have a couple of ending questions that I have to ask, like everyone in our class has to ask.
LJ: Okay.
SK: If you had not lived tluough the 1970's or been a part ofthe role women's theater played in the turmoil ofthe women's movement, do you think you'd be the same person you are today?
LJ: Absolutely not! And, 1 often say that I'm, for all the problems that we've all experienced, I'm veiy happy that this is the time that I've been alive. Because I do feel that inside me is this part of me that feels that it shouldn't be a man's world and I might have lived in another time and felt exactly the same way, but would not have had the support and encouragement that livkig now gave me. So, I would have just been frustrated.
SK: And also, why do you feel it is important for, for eveiyone to study this time period and the events, events that you lived through? Kiernan 48
LJ: Well, I think, politically there are all sort of sorts of things that came out of it, like basically there is no national draft, anymore. Maybe there will be again, but I think that, that you know, that the war protest movement changed our countiy in all sorts of ways. I think the women's movement changed our country in all sorts of ways and I think k's really important for younger women to understand that because, otherwise I think these strides can slip away, uh, and it's, and it's because we are completely integrated into life, and also because I want to say you know, biology is destiny. I think that there are thkigs about us, we are different from men, and 1 think that there are things about us that are hard wired into wanting to have a home, wanting to have children, 1 mean it Is part of what we as animals are designed for. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that either, but I think because of those urges and also to urges to fulfill ourselves as human beings. I mean that all of these things exist and can seem to be contradictory at times and I think that understanding the women's movement and the thinkers that it has produced, and producing new thinkers you know, ofthe next generation I think is really important.
SK: Okay, and finally, do you have any additional stories or experiences that you would like to add? That you haven't talked about before?
LJ: MiTun, nothing leaps to my mind.
SK: Alright, well I think that's about it. Kiernan 49
Interview Analvsis
Leslie Jacobson grew up during the 1950's. The I950's were an oppressive era for women. They were expected to be housewives who did little else than cook and clean. The women's rights movement in the early I900's, gained them the right to vote, but there had been little change in the rights that women had since then. While, Leslie
Jacobson feels that her mother's generation was not given many other options besides becoming a housewife, she did not feel that as a young girl in the 50's, that was the only option that she was offered. In her interview she said,
"I think that both my parents encouraged me, I never thought that I wouldn't go to
college. And, 1 mean I tlunk 1 had an expectation that 1 would marry and have
children because sort of eveiyone around me in the suburban world seemed to be
married and have clkldren.. .1 tlunk that there was a certaki expectation that I was
supposed to make as much, you know, that I was supposed to develop myself and
that I wasn't just going to wait until the right man came along" (Kiernan 3).
While women of her generation were given many new opportuikties, many of their mothers had not fmished or even attended college. Mrs. Jacobson did note that she is not sure if her experiences were unique because she was brought up in a more affluent enviromnent than many, but she does not feel that historical accounts ofthe time are correct in saying that girls growing up at that time, wlkle they were given many opportunities, were only expected to finish high school, many, and start a family.
Ms. Jacobson attended college during the 1960's, a veiy controversial time in
American history. The nation was divided by supporters ofthe Vietnam War and the very vocal anti-war protesters. Vietnam protests at schools such, as Kent State, shook the Kiernan 50 nation and changed the atmosphere ofthe college enviromnent. As a college student from 1966 to 1970, Leslie Jacobson was not aware ofthe women's rights movement, but was constantly aware ofthe turmoil surrounding the Vietnam War. In her interview, she recounted the events and precautions taken at her school. Northwestern University, after the student protests at Kent State. In particular she remembered having the National
Guard called in and emergency iron gates raised along major roads to protect and control the students. In the end, she came to the conclusion that her tune spent in college,
"... was just a veiy turbulent, veiy interesting time" (Kiernan 6).
In the 1960's and 70's she was also at the center ofthe feminist movenient as the creator, producer, and director of a women's theatre company. Wliile the women's liberation movement has been previously recorded as an event in histoiy that was, for a time, the main focus ofthe nation, Mrs. Jacobson said that she felt that was an inaccurate representation ofthe time. From her perspective she felt that the women's movenient, wlkle it did receive some acknowledgement in the news, was consistently overshadowed by the civil rights movement and the anti-war protests that surrounded the Vietnam War.
Another misconception that Mi's. Jacobson pointed out was that, while colleges were usually major supporters of political and social movements, evidenced by the events at
Kent State, she felt that the women's liberation movenient did not receive much focus on college campuses. Personally, she was not aware ofthe women's movement until she had graduated from college and become involved with a feminist theatre in Washington,
D.C. Although the women's rights movement has been said to have started garnering attention and support in the early 1960's, it is Leslie Jacobson's personal experience that it did not really become a social concem until at least the early seventies. In many ways. Kiernan 51 she felt that the women's liberation movement was not given as much attention at the time as it has been said to have been given looking back.
Historian Susan Douglas characterized the time period in which the women's libei-ation movement took place as a time when, although many women had little in common, they were all linked together by the women's movement and,
".. .listening to the Chiffons, watching Bewitched, wearing miniskirts, idolizing
Diana Ross, singing "I Am Woman," watchkig Charlie's Angels, being converted
by Gloria Steinem, Germaine Greer, and Betty Friedan, hooting over Dallas and
Dynasty (but not missing a single week), and, as a result, becoming women with a
profound love-hate relationship with the mass media, and wkh the cultural values
the mass media convey" (Douglas 18).
In her interview, Leslie Jacobson expressed the opinion that at the time, women were more divided than connected by the women's rights movement. She felt that many women were too scared to be known as a supporter ofthe movement, even if they wanted to be supportive of it, that they opposed it more vocally. For instance, in the interview, she recounted that,
"Once we had t-shirts that said ProFemina Theater on it, and once I was walking
down the street wearing one of those and somebody shouted some obscenity or
something as me.. .the person who shouted at me when they saw the t-slkrt was a
woman and it really sort of caught me by surprise" (Kiernan 20).
Wliile Douglas is correct in saying that the women's rights movement brought women together, it also caused many problems ainong them as Ms. Jacobson found in her experiences. Kiernan 52
In her interview, Mrs. Jacobson did express that the biases that have been said to have faced women before and during the women's rights movement were very real. For example, as a woman director, male actors expressed the doubts they had ki her abilities.
In addition, she was the fnst woman ever to direct a play at Northwestem, a very well- known and respected umversity, which proves that there were very Iknited opportunities for women in dieatre, among other professions. When Leslie Jacobson directed and produced plays in a more professional enviromnent, she still encountered the same negativity towards women. The theater that she started, ProFemina, received malicious phone messages for the simple reason that its productions were about, produced, and directed by women. There was such a negative connotation added to the theater's name by the public, in the form of harassment and embarrassment to see a show with such a feminist name, that they had to change the theater's title to something the caused fewer problems, Horizons. These examples of Leslie Jacobson's personal strife because of her gender prove that there was a serious problem with the way that women were being treated.
Oral interviews with people who were a part of particular periods or events in histoiy are a very useful asset m learning about the past. They provide information that textbooks and lectures cannot. The many books that were used to research the women's rights movement all provided basically the same information. They all included information about the leaders ofthe women's rights niovement, the protests ofthe movement, and the main ideology behind the movement. But, they did not talk about the other events that were going on at the same time, that greatly affected the evolution and the attention that the movement received. In addition, oral mterviews usually educate the Kiernan 53 intei'viewee about more than just what they have researched. Research for a paper can be veiy focused and exclusive to one topic, but by mixing research and interviews, a more complete understanding ofthe time can be achieved. Kiernan 54
Appendix 1
On An IS^^i^ i I AM >^MtNDMENT FURIOUS spider TOinanf YES jL-.>/*'"® llhout a Mai9 •-XA*' Is like /^NEVgflAQAW ^SJ!«5^cf,lK ' imi nmm%m Kiernan 56 Appendix 3 TV 'OM 40MKN "' UPPITY / WOMEN \fufm^ wnM^M.v UNITE I Kiernan 57 Appendix 4 Kiernan 58 Appendix 5 D© Not C©inisein!t t© War Kiernan 59 Appendix 6 ms ff/fi 0 ^'-i %i 't CaBI r^e Girl Kiernan 60 Appendix 7 Kiernan 61 Appendix 8 Kiernan 62 A^gendix^ TOGETHER Kiernan 63 Appendix 10 ABORTION NOT A .LEGAL DEBATE tF*'^' ••'•« Appendix 11 >mg Kiernan 65 Appendix 12 Kiernan 66 Aenendix 13 yiberatiioirii Sclhiooll Kiernan 67 Appendix 14 Working Womemi UBiiot« Kiernan 68 Appendix 15 Kiernan 69 Appendix 16 Wonmaini Are r^©t Chocks Kiernan 70 Appendix 17 mOLLSTONECRAFT-SHELLEV MIAIIAM^I ^ i, ^1 i/m/dLjD^r- i4' fif^Mn 0^ ^^^fimtfimti, (a fins hn fi*ir W //nrr 4? tnitjtvif ^m tin.- ««««9- iA^ Arff iVrt*»ii. Mir) VW->llstjfrt.rall. ji(tt>T r/ / t'ttkkiiien Chafe, William Hemy. The Paradox of Change: American Women in the 20"' Centuiy. New York: Oxford, 1991. Douglas, Susan J. Where the Girls Are. Times Books Random House, 1994. Feixee, Myra, and Beth Hess. Controversy and Coalition: The New Feminist tvlovement. Boston: Twayne Publishers, 1985. Ingraham, Gloria D. An Album of American Women: Their Changing Role. New York: F. Watts, 1987. Leone, Bruno, ed. The Women's Rights Movement: Opposing Viewpoints. San Diego, California: Greeikiaven Press, Inc., 1996. Phillips, Edie. "The Single, Working Women of I970's Television." T.V. Guide. May 14,1974. "Representative Shirley Chisholm's Speech on the Equal Rights Amendment (1970)." Facts On File, Inc. 12 Dec. 2001. "The CWLU Herstory Website." Chicago Women's Liberation Union.