Tuesday Volume 671 4 February 2020 No. 21

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 4 February 2020 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2020 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 153 4 FEBRUARY 2020 154

Craig Williams: Does my right hon. Friend agree that House of Commons NATO is the cornerstone not only of UK security, but of Euro-Atlantic security? Will he prioritise it—I ask Tuesday 4 February 2020 on behalf of Montgomeryshire constituents who have been asking me—to strengthen that alliance, to deal with the malign Russian threat? The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to use NATO, and it will require reform to PRAYERS adapt to meet new threats. The way to do that is to strengthen and reinforce NATO, so that it can deal with [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] state actors, including Russia, cyber, and all the modern threats. We are absolutely committed to doing that, and bringing our European and north American allies BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS together.

PATERSON INQUIRY Aaron Bell: With the American primary season upon Resolved, us, political tensions both within and between our NATO That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, That allies seem to be higher than ever. Does my right hon. she will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid Friend agree that that means we have a greater responsibility before this House a Return of a Paper, entitled Report of the than ever, here in the UK, to promote diplomacy between Independent Inquiry into the Issues raised by Paterson, dated our allies, and to speak judiciously when commenting 4 February 2020.—[Rebecca Harris.] on their internal politics?

Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is right. He knows, Oral Answers to Questions from the last NATO leaders’ meeting, which the Prime Minister hosted and chaired, that we take that very seriously. We contribute to every NATO mission. We are the top defence spender in Europe, the second-largest FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE in NATO as a whole, and the leading contributor to the NATO readiness initiative.

The Secretary of State was asked— Mr Speaker: Philip Dunne—not here. NATO Allies LloydRussell-Moyle(Brighton,Kemptown)(Lab/Co-op): 1. Gagan Mohindra (South West Hertfordshire) (Con): During the recent NATO summit, there was a concerted What diplomatic steps he is taking to strengthen relations effort by President Erdog˘an of Turkey to block progress with NATO allies. [900585] unless fellow NATO members agreed to label our Kurdish heroes in northern Syria as terrorists. After my last visit 7. Craig Williams (Montgomeryshire) (Con): What to Syria, the Secretary of State dismissed me and my diplomatic steps he is taking to strengthen relations concerns to try and reach out on that point. So maybe, with NATO allies. [900591] if he refused to take advice from me and other members of the Opposition—and his two colleagues who came 18. Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con): What with me on that trip—he might take a lead from the diplomatic steps he is taking to strengthen relations Belgian court case that said that the Kurds were not a with NATO allies. [900603] terrorist force; or the French, who objected publicly at the NATO council, as did Poland, the Baltic states, and The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth even Donald Trump. I ask the Foreign Secretary: why Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): did our own Prime Minister say nothing to defend the NATO protects nearly 1 billion people across 30 countries. British interest and our Kurdish allies? It is the most successful alliance in history, and we are proud to be a leading member. Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. We have raised our concerns in relation to Turkey’s Gagan Mohindra: Does my right hon. Friend agree incursion into Syria, which obviously has affected some that NATO is the cornerstone of UK and Euro-Atlantic of our Kurdish partners in the region. We had a very security? Will he support all efforts to increase burden successful NATO summit, precisely because the Prime sharing across the alliance? Minister and the UK Government are focused on making NATO work, bringing all our allies together and making Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. sure that our foes cannot exploit weaknesses or divisions Non-US defence investment has increased by £130 billion between us. between 2016 and 2020. It is expected to rise further, by £400 billion, by 2024, and that is progress, but allies need to Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab): Turkey’s relationship increase their defence spending in the way that he with its NATO allies is becoming ever more strained. described. Of course, the UK is one of nine NATO allies Turkey’s incursion into northern Syria, which we have meeting its 2% commitment, including a 20% increase just heard about, and an increasingly close relationship in investment in new capabilities. with Russia are two clear examples of how tension is 155 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 156 being created within the alliance by Turkey. As we are a Mr Whittingdale: Will my right hon. Friend welcome leading member of NATO, how do the Government President Zelensky’s decision to extend the visa-free think NATO should respond to the situation? regime for UK citizens for another year? Does my right hon. Friend share his ambition for Britain and Ukraine Dominic Raab: As with all strong partnerships within to conclude a new framework agreement as soon as NATO, if we have issues we raise them candidly and possible, including possible liberalisation of the visa clearly, and the relationship has the depth and the regime for Ukrainian citizens? maturity to enable us to do so. We have expressed our disappointment, for example, that Turkey chose to acquire Christopher Pincher: My right hon. Friend is a doughty Russian S-400 air defence systems. None the less, Turkey champion of Ukraine’s determination to look westward remains a valued NATO ally, on the frontline of some and be a modern European country. We will certainly of our most difficult security challenges, and I raised welcome, as soon as we can, the ratification of such an with the Turkish Foreign Minister on 5 January the arrangement, and I congratulate the President on his positives and our concerns. announcement on visa-free access for UK nationals. That will certainly help trade with the UK, which we Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): want to ensure is successful, but we also need to protect The Minister rightly speaks of the success of NATO as our own borders. The Home Secretary is responsible for an international peacekeeping force. Does he agree that border control, but we keep our border policy under part of the problem is that it does not get the international constant review, and visas to and from Ukraine is recognition for being that successful alliance? What something I discuss with her regularly. more can we do to ensure that that is the case? Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): On political Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman is right: a lot of development and the importance of having human the solid, steady work that NATO is doing, and the rights protected, including in Ukraine, I am aware of a work in bringing our allies together, goes unnoticed, as number of examples where Christians have been persecuted, is often the case in security. The most important thing injured and politically challenged for their beliefs. What the UK can do is continue to lead by example. We has been done in discussions with Ukraine to ensure contribute to every NATO mission. This includes: leading that human rights are protected and people have the the enhanced forward presence battle group in Estonia; right to express themselves? contributing to the US battle group in Poland; and working with our NATO allies on operations in Afghanistan Christopher Pincher: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman and Iraq, and we will continue to do all those things. for his question. We of course discuss these matters with Ukraine. I am particularly concerned about the 17. [900602] Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) repression of fundamental human rights—the right to (Lab): What recent discussions he has had with his speak the Crimean language—in Crimea by the annexing European counterparts on future co-operation after the forces, and I raised that issue when I went to Kiev last UK leaves the EU. We learned this week that the year. We will always place these issues, be they in Foreign Secretary has instructed British ambassadors Ukraine or elsewhere, high on the agenda. around the globe that when they attend international meetings they are no longer allowed to sit near our Climate Change European allies, so that we can project the image of a “confident independent country”. Of course many of 3. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What progress the our NATO allies are EU members. Does he honestly Government have made on tackling climate change believe that behaving like a moody teenager will help to through international co-operation. [900587] strengthen our alliances within NATO? 4. Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): What progress the Dominic Raab: Following the protocol at international Government have made on tackling climate change meetings to make sure that the UK is asserting its voice through international co-operation. [900588] confidently, and in tandem with but independently of our allies, is absolutely the right thing. That is what the 15. Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con): What progress referendum required and that is what we are doing. the Government have made on tackling climate change through international co-operation. [900600] Ukraine The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign 2. Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con): What steps and Commonwealth Affairs (Mrs Heather Wheeler): Climate he is taking to support political development in Ukraine; change is not a distant threat. We must act together to and if he will make a statement. [900586] accelerate action. The UK has already doubled its international climate finance funding from £5.6 billion The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher to £11.6 billion, and is investing £220 million in a new Pincher): The United Kingdom is a strong supporter of international biodiversity fund. Ukraine’ssovereignty and territorial integrity,and President Zelensky’scommitment to reform and fighting corruption. Henry Smith: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that We have provided financial support to the tune of answer. Does she agree that increasing the UK’s climate £38 million this year, across multiple areas, and we lead diplomacy capabilities is important for a successful robust sanctions on Russia for its attacks on Ukraine’s COP26 conference in Glasgow later this year, so that we sovereignty. We look forward to welcoming President can be more successful than last year’s conference Zelensky to the UK as soon as a date can be found. in Madrid? 157 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 158

Mrs Wheeler: The UK was disappointed at the lack Will the Minister tell us what percentage of the energy of progress made at COP25 in Madrid. The UK and deals that were struck at that summit were based on the Italian diplomatic efforts will be squarely focused on mining of fossil fuels? achieving a successful COP26. COP is about more than negotiations; it is about real change happening across Mrs Wheeler: I thank the right hon. Lady for that countries, civil society and the private sector. These question. She always puts her questions so perfectly; broader elements will be a primary focus of COP26. her diction is superb for the House. Everybody was clear about what she said. Siobhan Baillie: At the weekend, I had the pleasure of We are weaning all the world off coal. The Powering attending a Stroud Greenpeace exhibition about climate Past Coal Alliance, which is clearing away from coal, is change and protecting our oceans. Will the Foreign and very important. We are leading on that and my hon. Commonwealth Office continue to advocate for Friend the Minister for Africa, who led at the Africa international agreement on climate change at the United conference, has managed to secure an amazing deal on Nations? Will the Minister tell us more about the that. We are looking towards the bright future that that Government’s commitment to protecting our oceans Prime Minister has been talking about today. and the work on the UN global treaty negotiations? Emily Thornberry: The hon. Lady focuses on coal Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. and boasts about the announcement on coal, but according This is the first time I have answered a question from to the Environmental Audit Committee, UK Export her, so I welcome her to her place. Finance has not supported a single coal project since I welcome my hon. Friend’s view on international 2002. I do not know whether she is uncertain about oceans. We are looking for a maximum ambition on the answer or just too embarrassed to answer, but the oceans to protect them for future generations, and I am reality is that more than 90% of the £2 billion of working hard with Lord Goldsmith on that ambitious investment in energy deals that was agreed at the UK-Africa project. trade summit was committed to new drilling for oil and gas—more fossil fuels. None of that was mentioned in the Government press release, which focused instead on Paul Howell: Both the councils in the Sedgefield the paltry figures for investment in solar power. Does the constituency—Darlington and Durham—have declared Minister accept that she is part of a Government who climate change emergencies, but given the relatively low talk the talk on climate change but never walk the walk? impact of the UK on climate change compared with They make symbolic moves on the domestic front but places such as China, how do we convince our constituents will never take any global lead. Worst of all, they refuse to engage? Does the Minister agree that it is imperative to stand up to the climate denier— that we not only challenge other countries to make progress but share the efforts that our international Mr Speaker: Order. We have to get to the question; colleagues are making, in order to motivate and share we cannot keep reading out a statement. A quick question, good practice? please.

Mrs Wheeler: I hope my hon. Friend, whom I welcome Emily Thornberry: Worst of all, the Government to his place, will excuse my having my back to him as I refuse to stand up to the climate denier-in-chief, Donald speak to the Chair. Trump. Does the Minister not realise that in the face of My hon. Friend is absolutely right that climate change this climate emergency we no longer have time for is one of the most urgent and pressing challenges we cowardice? face today, so no country can solve the problem alone. COP26 in November will bring together more than Mrs Wheeler: Shall I be succinct, Mr Speaker? We 300,000 delegates from around the world to tackle recognise that countries will continue to need to use a climate change. It is vital that all countries come together mixture of energy sources, including renewable energy and come forward with increased pledges and nationally and lower-carbon fossil fuels such as natural gas, as part determined contributions in the coming months. The of the transition towards a low-carbon, sustainable UK has committed to increasing our international climate economy. I am afraid the right hon. Lady is making too ambition and NDCs before COP26. much hot air today.

Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): What evidence does the (Lab): We meet today on the 75th anniversary of the Minister have that the Government’s diplomacy is having Yalta conference, at which Churchill, Roosevelt and an impact on the biggest polluters, such as China and Stalin carved up post-war Europe, and in doing so United States, in that those countries are prepared to do unwittingly created the conditions for half a century of something more than they are doing now? cold war between east and west. Their mistakes were eventually fixed, but when we have conferences that Mrs Wheeler: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his affect the climate emergency today, we have to realise question. We are working very closely with countries that it is too late to fix any more mistakes as we rapidly around the world. I have been to five of the Association approach the point of no return on global warming, so of Southeast Asian Nations so far,and, at every opportunity let me ask a specific question. When the Prime Minister I have asked them to have more ambitious targets for hosted the UK-Africa trade summit just a fortnight reducing their carbon emissions, and that is exactly ago, he told its delegates that what will happen when our Secretary of State meets “we all suffer when carbon emissions rise and the planet warms.” representatives in China very soon. 159 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 160

Wuhan: UK Nationals The Minister for Africa (Andrew Stephenson): Increased trade and investment in Africa will improve African Government revenues, and support job creation and 5. Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con): What recent economic growth, which is beneficial for African discussions he has had with his Chinese counterpart on states and the United Kingdom. On 20 January, the the situation in Wuhan. [900589] Government hosted the UK-Africa investment summit, where £6.5 billion-worth of commercial deals and The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth £1.5 billion-worth of Government funding initiatives Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): I were announced. Commitments announced at the AIS spoke to Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi on 28 January will help to drive prosperity across the continent. about the evacuation of UK nationals from Wuhan and also about UK medical supplies to help the Chinese authorities tackle the coronavirus. Harriett Baldwin: I congratulate my hon. Friend and everyone involved in the very successful Africa investment summit. Will there be another one and, if so, what Andrew Rosindell: I thank the Foreign Secretary for would the African countries that were not invited to this his reply, but does he agree that the safety and security one need to do to get an invite to the next one? of British nationals must be our primary concern, and will he therefore press the Chinese authorities to co-operate in granting any assistance necessary to ensure that our Andrew Stephenson: I start by paying tribute to my nationals are looked after while they remain in China? predecessor for the work that she did in the early preparations for the summit. The summit achieved its objectives of laying the foundations for a new, stronger Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, relationship between the United Kingdom and Africa, and those are precisely the issues that I raised with the based on mutually beneficial trade and investment. Chinese Foreign Minister. In fairness, we have seen Following our departure from the European Union, the 83 British nationals repatriated on Friday, and another Government will build further on those foundations in seven British nationals and four dependants evacuated a range of ways, and we are currently looking at the on a French flight that returned to the UK on Sunday. I feedback from the summit. can also tell him that we have been allocated 14 places on an Air New Zealand flight today for UK nationals and their dependants. Mark Fletcher: I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Afzal Khan (Manchester,Gorton) (Lab): The evacuation Baldwin) on the Africa investment summit. Too often, of British nationals and their families from Wuhan has Britain’s interests when it comes to Africa are piecemeal been nothing short of a shambles, given the delays, the and we are not good enough when it comes to sustained lack of information and the terrible cases of family engagement, so what plans does the Minister have to separation that have occurred. Why on earth does the engage with the African Union on a regular basis? Foreign Office not have protocols and plans in place to manage these crises when they occur? Andrew Stephenson: Excellent. I very much welcome that question. The African Union is justifiably seen Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong internationally as a strong and influential partner, able on everything that he has just said. I visited the crisis to bring African countries together. During the Africa centre yesterday. We have an excellent cross-Whitehall investment summit, chairperson Faki met the Prime team, including the Ministry of Defence and the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. Department of Health and Social Care working with To support the development of the African continental our consular officers. There are challenges dealing with free trade area, the Secretary of State for International the Chinese authorities in relation to the permissions to Trade announced a £200 million southern African regional get the charter flight in and to get people to the muster trading connectivity programme and a £20 million trade points. We hired four coaches for the first flight that connect programme at the summit, which will further arrived on Friday, and we delayed the flight for three and deepen our partnership with the African Union. hours on the tarmac to ensure that all the people who needed to get on could get on, and of course we will continue working with our international partners and Fabian Hamilton (Leeds North East) (Lab): May I the Chinese to get those who need to come home out of ask the Minister how much time during the UK- the country. Africa investment summit last month was dedicated to discussing the elimination of corruption and the protection of human rights, as two of the key preconditions of any new trade deals, especially given the presence of Prosperity in Africa a notorious human rights abuser such as Egypt’s President Sisi? 6. Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): What diplomatic steps his Department is taking to help promote Andrew Stephenson: The subject of human rights was prosperity in Africa. [900590] raised by the Foreign Secretary in every single one of his bilateral meetings. Corruption is a barrier to business 16. Mark Fletcher (Bolsover) (Con): What diplomatic and growth, which is why the Foreign and Commonwealth steps his Department is taking to help promote prosperity Office, through the prosperity fund, is investing in extensive in Africa. [900601] anti-corruption projects in Africa, including legal reforms, 161 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 162 policy reforms and transparency reforms, and operational Hannah Bardell: I thank the Minister for his answer, work to recover the billions that have been stolen from but with respect I disagree. In December last year, the the African people over the years. all-party parliamentary group on deaths abroad and consular services and assistance—which I founded Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab): As trade negotiations and chair, and of which many of the Minister’s progress with Africa, there will be conflicting pressures colleagues have been members—published its report, with our trade negotiations with the US and South with 92 recommendations. We took evidence from American states. What reassurance can the Minister more than 60 families from across the UK whose loved give me that he will put pressure on the Department for ones died abroad in suspicious circumstances or are International Trade to ensure that Africa is prioritised being incarcerated against their will, and they said that when it comes to trade deals, and does not lose out as a they feel they are being let down by the Foreign and result of US or South American deals? Commonwealth Office. With Brexit set to make international co-operation harder and this Government’s cuts resulting in the reduction of more than 1,000 diplomatic Andrew Stephenson: The very fact that we have hosted staff, UK citizens deserve better. Will the Secretary of an Africa investment summit indicates the Government’s State or the Minister meet me to discuss enshrining strategic priority towards Africa. We are opening five into law— new missions in Africa, and are increasing the number of our staff—including Department for International Trade staff—across the continent by 400. Africa is a key Mr Speaker: Order. We must have short questions. I trading partner, and UK-Africa trade increased by 7.5% call the Minister to respond. last year to £36 billion. Andrew Stephenson: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I have already agreed to meet her, as did my UK Nationals: Consular Support predecessor, but neither offer has been taken up. On 23 January, the consular murder and manslaughter team held a workshop bringing together key stakeholders, 8. Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): including Murdered Abroad, the Help for Victims homicide What steps he is taking to strengthen consular support service, the Ministry of Justice, the Metropolitan police for UK nationals overseas. [900592] and the Chief Coroner’s Office to focus on always improving our support for bereaved families. I participated The Minister for Africa (Andrew Stephenson): Our in that meeting. We will always strive to improve the consular staff help more than 20,000 British people service that we provide to those who have loved ones abroad every year. The support is tailored to the individual murdered abroad. circumstances of each case, and prioritises those who are most in need. We constantly strive to improve our support, and use customer feedback to improve our Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): One of the services and staff skills. consular cases most on the minds of people in this House is that of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe. Does the Minister agree that western countries need to work Anthony Browne: I very much welcome the assurances together to call out the vile practice of hostage-taking that this Government have given to the 3 million EU by countries such as Iran? Article 4 of the NATO treaty nationals who will continue living in the UK after the says if that one country is invaded, all have to treat it as transition period, but we have heard far less about the if they have been invaded. Should we not do the same rights of the 1 million UK citizens living in the EU post when our innocent citizens are taken hostage? Brexit. What work is the Department doing to help preserve those UK citizens’ futures? Andrew Stephenson: I applaud my right hon. Friend for his question and the work that he did on this case Andrew Stephenson: Protecting citizens’ rights in the when he was Foreign Secretary. The Prime Minister met EU is absolutely a priority for the Government. The Richard Ratcliffe on 23 January. We continue to make withdrawal agreement provides certainty for UK nationals strong representations to send a clear signal in this case living in the EU about their rights going forward. The that Iran’s behaviour is totally wrong and unacceptable. Foreign and Commonwealth Office is proactively engaging with EU member states to ensure full and timely implementation of the withdrawal agreement. Middle East Peace Plan

Hannah Bardell (Livingston) (SNP): Do the Minister, the Secretary of State and the Government believe that 9. Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What steps UK citizens deserve the right to consular services and he plans to take to encourage (a) his Israeli counterpart, support enshrined in law? (b) the Palestinian Authority and (c) other middle east states to discuss the potential merits of the US Administration’s Peace to Prosperity plan. [900593] Andrew Stephenson: There is currently no legal right to consular assistance. Domestic law would not improve the outcomes for our most complex cases. Even if there 11. Wes Streeting (Ilford North) (Lab): What was a right to assistance, the Government’s ability to representations he has made to his counterpart in the provide it would remain dependent on other states US Administration on the proposed peace deal for the respecting that. middle east. [900595] 163 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 164

21. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab): (Lab): What representations he has made to his counterpart The 22-member Arab League and the 57-member in the US Administration on the proposed peace deal Organisation of Islamic Co-operation have both rejected for the middle east. [900606] the so-called Trump peace plan, because they recognise that it has no benefit for the Palestinian people, so why The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth do the British Government continue to support it? Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): We welcome the US proposals for peace talks between the Dominic Raab: We support it along with—the hon. Israelis and the Palestinians based on recognition of the Gentleman failed to mention this—the Saudis, the two-state solution. We support this initiative to get both Egyptians, the Omanis and Qatar. They have all given sides around the negotiating table. statements saying that it is a first step on the road to negotiations that can resolve the conflict. [Interruption.] Mr Hollobone: Does the Foreign Secretary agree that They put out two statements. I heard the right hon. the United States’ “Peace to Prosperity” plan is a set of Member for Islington South and Finsbury (Emily serious and constructive proposals that deserves more Thornberry) chuntering from a sedentary position. The than instant rejection, and that whatever the pros and reality is that rejectionism—the vacuum that currently cons of the plan, if we are to secure a lasting peace, the exists—will only make matters worse. We want to see a only way to do so is through direct talks between the negotiated two-state solution. That will happen only if Palestinians and the Israelis? both parties come to the negotiating table.

Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend. This is a first Libya: Peace Process step on the road back to negotiations. The absence of dialogue creates a vacuum that only fuels instability and 10. Giles Watling (Clacton) (Con): What steps he is leads to the drifting of the two sides further and further taking to help support the peace process in Libya. apart, so whatever the different views, we want both [900594] sides to get around the negotiating table to work to improve the plan and to get peace in the middle east. The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa (Dr Andrew Murrison): The Berlin conference attended Wes Streeting: A peace plan without Palestinian by the Prime Minister on 19 January showed wide participation is not a peace plan—it is an annexation international support for a ceasefire, resumption of plan. Can the Secretary of State assure us that the UN-led political talks and an end to external interference. Government will not accept either this plan or any International actors agreed to freeze military activity unilateral annexation plan, and perhaps take the step on the ground, not to send reinforcements and to respect now to recognise an independent Palestinian state before the UN arms embargo. All parties must honour their there is no state left to recognise? Berlin commitments and demonstrate their support for the UN-led political process. Dominic Raab: I certainly agree with the hon. Gentleman that any annexation unilaterally would be contrary to Giles Watling: I thank the Minister for his answer. international law, damaging to peace efforts, and cannot Libya seems to have drifted out of the headlines somewhat, go unchallenged, but the answer is to get both sides and this war has been going on for 11 years. The around the negotiating table. That is why not only the Russo-Turkish Libyan initiative has now failed, and we UK but the French, the Italians, EU High Representative must not take our eyes off the ball. Are we sure that we Josep Borrell, Japan, India, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, are not being short-sighted and piecemeal, when what Egypt and Oman have all called for the parties, based Libya really needs is long-term international efforts on this initiative, to come back to talks. diplomatically and on the ground?

Chi Onwurah: I am sure that the Secretary of State Dr Murrison: My hon. Friend is right to say that this considers himself a friend of the people of Israel, as I is a very busy region indeed. However, I disagree that do, and of America, and, I hope, of Palestine. Does he the international community is taking its eye off the agree that it is the duty of real friends to speak the truth ball—witness the Berlin process and activities at the at difficult times? The truth is that this is no peace plan: United Nations. I shall be going to Ankara tonight, and worse, by making the Palestinians spectators in their I will of course be talking about Libya, among other own land, annexing illegal settlements and destroying things, with my Turkish interlocuters tomorrow. hopes, it paves the way for further conflict. Will he speak that truth to Israel and America? Mr Speaker: I call Toby Perkins—not here. Gambia: Arrests of Protestors Dominic Raab: The hon. Lady is absolutely right that we need to speak candidly on all sides of this debate. I have spoken to the Americans. I also spoke to President 13. Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP): Abbas on 27 January. The reality is that whatever What representations he has made to his Gambian concerns any side has about this set of proposals, they counterpart on reports of arrests of peaceful protestors will get resolved and improved only with both sides by Gambian security forces. [R] [900597] around the negotiating table. Rejectionism—the current What the Gambia did in coming together to rid itself vacuum—is only making matters worse. We would like of the human rights abuses of former President Jammeh to see peaceful dialogue and a negotiated solution, and was nothing short of spectacular and gave a real that must be based on the two-state solution and the opportunity to build a world-leading democracy, but principles of international law. last week, hundreds were beaten by security forces for 165 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 166 peacefully demonstrating. Four journalists were detained the humanitarian relief, which will provide relief to the and charged with incitement, and two radio stations children and other vulnerable people suffering in that have been closed down. Using the Government’s global terrible conflict. media freedom campaign, what can the Minister do to support the majority of Gambians, who are terrified Iraq that this is the start of a slippery slope backwards, when they clearly want to go forwards? 19. Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): What recent assessment he has made of the security situation in The Minister for Africa (Andrew Stephenson): I thank Iraq. [900604] the hon. Lady for her question. We are concerned that the political protests on 26 January turned violent. We are monitoring the investigations into that incident The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa closely through our high commission. The UK is clear (Dr Andrew Murrison): The security situation in Iraq is that the right to peaceful protest and media freedom deeply worrying. The threat from Daesh remains, and must be upheld without recourse to violence and the recent attacks by Shi’a military groups on diplomatic intimidation. premises are unacceptable, as is the use of disproportionate force against demonstrators. We are committed to supporting the Government of Iraq to face its profound Leaving the EU: Human Rights security challenges. The Prime Minister reaffirmed that with his Iraqi counterpart on 5 January, and we stand 14. Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) ready to work with the new Prime Minister Mohammed (Con): What plans he has to bring forward legislative Allawi. proposals for a UK autonomous global human rights sanctions regime after the UK leaves the EU. [900599] Jessica Morden: Members of the Kurdish community in Newport have contacted me as they are very concerned The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth that the recent vote in the Iraqi Parliament on expelling Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): foreign forces will leave the Kurdish people, scarred by Now that we have left the EU and regained control of war over many years, even more vulnerable. What will our sanctions rules, we will be bringing into force our Ministers do to act on their behalf? own global human rights Magnitsky-style sanctions regime, which will give us a powerful new tool to hold Dr Murrison: I thank the hon. Lady for her the world’s human rights abusers to account. supplementary question. I spoke to the Prime Minister of the Kurdistan region of Iraq, Masrour Barzani, Tim Loughton: Does my right hon. Friend agree that recently—last month—and we discussed this issue, among any new Magnitsky legislation must be targeted at the others. She is right to say that the security of the region worst human rights abusers, including those perpetrating is of vital importance, and we will do all we can to work terror against minorities in China, most notably the with our friends to assure that, including helping to Uighurs and the Tibetans? To that end, will he support train the peshmerga. my Tibet (Reciprocal Access) Bill, mirroring legislation passed in the US which is throwing a spotlight on some Middle East of the worst human rights abuses against the Tibetans within China? 20. Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): What diplomatic steps he is taking to help de-escalate tensions in the Dominic Raab: I thank my hon. Friend for his question middle east. [900605] and pay tribute to his tenacious efforts in this regard. When I was in Washington, on the hill, I had a number 22. Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): of conversations about US legislation and the approach What diplomatic steps he is taking to help de-escalate it is taking. He is right to say that our regime should tensions in the middle east. [900607] target the worst human rights abusers. He will see the individuals designated in due course, but I can reassure The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa him that our approach will be universal in its scope. (Dr Andrew Murrison): As I said on 14 January, our strategic aims remain to de-escalate US-Iran tensions, Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab): The constrain Iran’s nuclear development and hold Iran to 6,500 children fleeing Idlib in Syria daily, where barrel account for destabilising activity in the middle east. We bombs are being used on hospitals and schools, must remain fully committed to the joint comprehensive plan wonder where on earth the protectors of their human of action. The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, rights are. Unfortunately, in this House we have all but the Defence Secretary and I have all spoken to counterparts forgotten them. What is the Foreign Secretary’s plan to in the United States, Iran and across the region to ensure that those children know that their human rights underline the need for de-escalation on all sides. are protected? Caroline Ansell: Any unified and prosperous Palestinian Dominic Raab: I share the hon. Lady’s concern about state living peacefully alongside Israel is unrealistic as the situation in Syria. Weencourage all the actors—whether long as the Hamas terror group continues to be committed it is the Russians, the Turks or, indeed, the Assad regime to the destruction of Israel. Will my right hon. Friend itself—to find a peaceful way through. We support the join me in calling for renewed international pressure on UN efforts to find a peaceful solution and, in particular, Hamas to renounce violence and to disarm? 167 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 168

Dr Murrison: My hon. Friend is of course absolutely hoping to work with Kew so that the re-energising of right. The renunciation of violence and the return to the that biodiversity area, which has been so badly affected, political process are of crucial importance in trying to will come to fruition, if I can use that word. It is get towards what I think we all want in this House, excellent that our experts will be working completely which is a peaceful and amicable settlement that respects hand in hand with the Australian authorities. the 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as a shared capital, and in particular a deal that gives refugees, of whom Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): What there are a huge number in the region, a proper future. discussions have the Government had with the Australian Government about the link between the bushfires and Jack Lopresti: Does my right hon. Friend agree that climate change to make sure that the Australian one of the ways we can help to secure a long-lasting Government get serious about tackling carbon emissions peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians is by in their country? working with our allies to support initiatives that promote dialogue and co-existence, such as the international Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. fund for Israeli-Palestinian peace, as well as ensuring Australia is a signatory to the Paris agreement, and a that UK taxpayers’ money is not misdirected or misused number of Australian states have already committed to but goes to the people who actually need it? net zero by 2050. Ahead of COP26 we look forward to working with Australia to increase its climate ambition, Dr Murrison: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. in line with principles that it has already agreed to. There are of course a large number of projects and initiatives, many of them funded by the United Kingdom, Topical Questions that are aimed at promoting peace. He will be aware that we are one of the major contributors to the T1. [900610] Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): humanitarian situation—we hope, of course, pro tem— If he will make a statement on his departmental before we get a definitive political process that enables a responsibilities. viable Palestinian state to live alongside the state of Israel. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and First Secretary of State (Dominic Raab): Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): In relation to Last week we left the European Union to become an de-escalating tensions, may I thank the Minister for independent country, delivering on the promise made having met my constituent Mr Robert Cummings, the by politicians to the British people. Later today I will be grandfather of Luke Symons, who is being held by departing for Australia, Japan, Malaysia and Singapore, Houthis in Sana’a? May I convey, through him, a to deliver on this Government’s vision of a truly global request for an opportunity to meet the Foreign Secretary Britain. himself to discuss the case further? Alison Thewliss: Yesterdaythe World Health Organisation Dr Murrison: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. evacuated 30 patients from Yemen who needed urgent We have discussed the case of Luke Symons at some medical treatment, including several children, but those length, and of course my door always remains open. We are very much the lucky exceptions. What is the Foreign continue to do what we can in a very difficult and Secretary doing, together with his international challenging situation with our interlocutors and partners counterparts, to negotiate peace in Yemen, so that all its to secure the outcome that I know the hon. Gentleman people can receive medical assistance when they need it? wants for Mr Cummings. Dominic Raab: The hon. Lady raises a conflict that I, Australian Bushfires and the whole Government, are very concerned about. We work with all our international partners, and in the 24. Peter Gibson (Darlington) (Con): What support past week I met the Saudi Foreign Minister to consider the Government are providing to Australia to help how we can pursue dialogue and get a peaceful resolution tackle the bushfires in that country. [900609] to that conflict, not only for the parties and the region, but also for the vulnerable people affected. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mrs Heather Wheeler): The T3. [900612] Dean Russell (Watford) (Con): I was at UK deployed a team of experts on 8 January to assess Vicarage Road on Saturday, when both goals for Watford what support Australia needs, and we are working with were scored by foreign players. Will the Secretary of Australia to establish where we can work together on State assure me that the premier league will still be able this issue. to attract talent and international players from around the world? Peter Gibson: I welcome the Government’s pledge to create 500 new hectares of vibrant ecosystems here, but The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Australia’s ecosystems are facing unprecedented threats and Commonwealth Affairs (Mrs Heather Wheeler): What following these bushfires. What steps is the Department an excellent question, particularly bearing in mind how taking to assist the Australian Government in the recovery important soft power is to our standing in the world. of these precious habitats? We are proud to host the best league in the world, showcasing the greatest talent in the world, and this Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. year we will welcome our European friends to Glasgow One of the pieces of work we are doing with Australia, I and London for Euro 2020—yes, my hon. Friend can be hope, is on biodiversity and specifically on seeds. We are assured about that. 169 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 170

T2. [900611] Marsha De Cordova (Battersea) (Lab): As Mrs Wheeler: I thank my hon. Friend for that very the Foreign Secretary should be aware, members of the interesting question. He is quite right: the BBC World Public and Commercial Services Union who are employed Service does reach 319 million people weekly. It is by Interserve at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office incredibly important that that carries on. We have the have begun a month of strike action. The dispute is over 2020 agreement between the BBC and Her Majesty’s a lack of trade union recognition for collective bargaining Government to invest huge amounts of money and we purposes, sick pay, and unfair contractual changes. I am want that to continue. pleased that some of those workers are here today watching proceedings, and I stand in solidarity with Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) them in their fight for dignity, respect, and fair treatment (Lab): The National Federation of Indian Women estimates at work. Will the Foreign Secretary urgently review the that 13,000 teenage boys from Jammu-Kashmir have situation, and work with all parties to bring the dispute been detained following the revocation of article 370 on to an end and achieve a fair and dignified resolution? 5 August. Will the Secretary of State support a fact-finding delegation from the all-party group on Kashmir to the Mrs Wheeler: That is exactly what we would like to region, given that so many of the UK’s Kashmiri diaspora happen. The Foreign Secretary has already underwritten still have family members there? financial arrangements between Interserve and the employees, and we would like everybody to go back to Mrs Wheeler: The Foreign Secretary raised this issue ACAS and get this settled. with the Foreign Minister for India. Perhaps I could write to the hon. Lady afterwards.

T5. [900614] Caroline Ansell (Eastbourne) (Con): Does T7. [900617] Joy Morrissey (Beaconsfield) (Con): Will the Minister share my view that unless and until peaceful the Minister provide an update on why the Chinese co-existence is taught, championed and modelled in Government are not giving permission for their citizens Palestinian schools, any peace deal with Israel will be to leave the country with their British partners? short-lived? Dominic Raab: I appreciate my hon. Friend raising The Minister for the Middle East and North Africa this very important issue. There are huge challenges in (Dr Andrew Murrison): My hon. Friend is right, and she dealing with the coronavirus outbreak. We are working will be aware of the support that we give for health and collaboratively with the Chinese. There is clearly a education in the occupied Palestinian territories, pending tension between the desire from our point of view to the definitive political solution that we would like to see ensure that UK nationals and their dependants, whatever in the not-too-distant future, which remains a huge their nationality, can return to the UK, and the legitimate priority. She will also be aware of concerns about things desire of the Chinese to prevent the spread of the virus. such as teaching materials in schools, and of the active I have spoken to the Chinese Foreign Minister and role that we have taken to ensure that no inappropriate received reassurances that no UK-national-related families material is used. I spoke recently to the Palestinian who want to return to the UK will find themselves Education Minister. I know that this issue is at the top divided on the basis of dual or split nationality among of his agenda, and in advance of the academic year in their families. September, changes will be made. Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab): Does the T4. [900613] Stephen Kinnock (Aberavon) (Lab): For Minister agree, with regard to the Trump so-called those who believe in the international rules-based order, peace deal, that since no Palestinians were involved in the Trump annexation plan is an utter disaster that negotiating it, it is not a negotiation or a deal but an ushers in the law of the jungle. If the British Government imposition and that therefore an imposition is no basis support this plan, surely they will also be giving a green for a lasting peace? light to Russia and China for their various annexation activities. If it is okay for Israel to do this, what will the Dominic Raab: The hon. Gentleman is putting the Foreign Secretary say to Russia and China? cart before the horse. He is right that both sides will need to agree a two-state solution based on coherent, credible states on both sides and with the security Dominic Raab: I think the hon. Gentleman has considerations without any lateral annexation— misunderstood the UK position. There is a proposal for [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Islington peace talks, which would require a two-state solution, South and Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) is again speaking based on both sides agreeing. We have made it clear that from a sedentary position. There will need to be the we would disagree with and challenge any unilateral resolution of all the key final status issues, including annexation on the basis of settlements. Jerusalem and refugees. But we have to get out of this vacuum and the only way we will do that is if both sides T6. [900616] Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) come to the negotiating table. (Con): Soft power will be increasingly important in the post-Brexit world. Among the many international treasures T8. [900618] Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): the UK can marshal is the BBC World Service, with an The Prime Minister’s speech yesterday was welcomed audience of over 320 million. After the BBC recently by many businesses in Bishop Auckland for his words reneged on the funding agreement for free TV licences about championing free trade globally. On freedom, a for over-75s, will the Minister ensure that the BBC does number of my constituents have been in touch to ask not try to compensate by raiding the BBC World Service specifically what we can do to help to promote freedom budget and endangering this vital resource? in Venezuela. 171 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 172

Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is right to tirelessly conference and the UN ocean conference in Lisbon, champion freedom across the world. I met interim because clearly,climate change diplomacy will be absolutely President Guaidó. We continue to want a peaceful front and centre of his agenda? resolution of the situation in Venezuela and a transition to free elections which are credible for the people of Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is absolutely right Venezuela. that in all those conferences, we want to lead with an ambitious approach to tackling climate change. The Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): Prime Minister is setting out with Sir Richard Attenborough This morning, the now-sacked President of COP26 said today the approach to COP26, and if my hon. Friend that the Prime Minister has shown, would like any more detail, I would be very happy to “a huge lack of leadership and engagement” write to him. and “doesn’t really understand” climate change, which Jeff Smith (Manchester, Withington) (Lab): With the has led to the UK being “miles off” globally from where rights of indigenous peoples in danger around the we need to be. Now rumours are flying around suggesting world—particularly from the Bolsonaro Government that the Government are planning to shift COP26 from in Brazil—does the Minister agree that the rights of Glasgow to an English location. What on earth are the indigenous peoples should be embedded in the proposed public supposed to make of this shambles? international treaty on human rights and transnational corporations? Dominic Raab: The hon. Lady will not need to wait long, because today, with Sir Richard Attenborough, The Minister for Europe and the Americas (Christopher the Prime Minister is launching and setting out the Pincher): I think the hon. Gentleman was present at a detail of our approach to COP26, where we will lead in Westminster Hall debate last year when I made clear the bringing the world together to tackle one of the global work that the British Government are doing to help challenges of our age. indigenous peoples in places such as Brazil. We have to make sure that we support such people. I think the T9. [900619] Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) point was made by the former Member for Bishop (Con): With regard to Hong Kong BNO—British National Auckland that tariffs are a good thing. Tariffs hurt the (Overseas)—passport holders, can the Secretary of State poorest and tariffs on food hurt the very poorest. We say whether the Government consider them to be British will make sure that we support indigenous peoples or Chinese nationals? If it is British, what more can we wherever they are, and particularly in Brazil. do to enable them to access consular support in the place they live? Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): I note the Minister’s earlier remarks about the Iran nuclear Dominic Raab: The BNO passport holders have, by deal, but does he accept that since it was signed in 2015, definition, a bespoke status. They have Chinese and Iran has launched major cyber-attacks against the UK, British nationality, but they are not British citizens. including on this Parliament? It has used its warships to They hold a BNO passport, which entitles them to harass our fleets in the Gulf and it has supported a consular support when travelling away from home. It huge arms build-up in the middle east. Where is the also entitles them to six months entry clearance into the evidence that Iran can be a trusted partner for peace? UK. That, as I think my hon. Friend will know, was agreed as part of the arrangements around the joint Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend is right to point declaration in 1984. We support that. We want to see out not only the systematic Iranian non-compliance on one country-two systems upheld, precisely because it is the nuclear front, but its wider destabilising activities in the best way of ensuring the freedoms and the autonomy the region and its use of covert cyber-attacks against of the people of Hong Kong. western interests. The reality is that we want to hold Iran to account every time it steps beyond the international Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): pale, but we also want to leave the door ajar for it to My constituent, Jagtar Singh Johal, has been incarcerated take the confidence-building steps—when the regime in in the Republic of India for 830 days. Will the Foreign Tehran makes that decision, as only it can—to come Secretary consider meeting me and Jagtar’s family to in from the international cold. assure them that while he is pursuing a free trade British agenda, he will not sacrifice our commitment to openness, Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): Can the Minister transparency and due process in any future free trade outline the discussions that he has had with our agreement? Commonwealth ally, India, about its industry and climate change and how we can help it to be sustainable, The Minister for Africa (Andrew Stephenson): We environmentally friendly and reduce emissions while take allegations of torture and mistreatment very seriously carrying on with its industry? and we raise them with the Indian authorities. I know that the hon. Gentleman recently met Lord Ahmad on Dominic Raab: My hon. Friend is right not just to ask 23 October and 19 December. I am happy to arrange that specific question, but to do so in that tone. As another meeting with Lord Ahmad or to have a meeting COP26 beckons, we want to see increased ambition with him myself. right across the world in terms of nationally determined contributions to get emissions down. We also want to Tom Tugendhat (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con): My work with big developing countries such as India and right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has touched on China, with the technology and the innovation that the the COP26 preparations. Will he talk a bit about the UK is particularly adept at providing, to help them to strategy that the FCO will take on the Kunming biodiversity transition to a greener economy. 173 Oral Answers 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Oral Answers 174

Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): Following the acquisition Will the Foreign Secretary consider the request I by Turkey of certain key military equipment from Russia, made earlier through his colleague to meet my constituent, what is my right hon. Friend doing to try to maintain Robert Cummings, in relation to the case of Luke strong bilateral relations with Turkey as a key NATO Symons in Yemen? ally? Dominic Raab: I am happy to correct the record as to which Attenborough I meant. We are lucky to have had Dominic Raab: My right hon. Friend is absolutely so many fantastic Attenboroughs in this country. I also right—we have, as I mentioned, expressed our concern repeat that we are ambitious for COP26. to Turkey about its acquisition of Russian-made weapons. Of course, I will look carefully at the case the hon. That is against not just the letter, but the spirit of Member raises. In all these consular cases, we want to NATO. Equally, we value Turkey as a trusted NATO provide the most effective representation to secure people’s ally. It is often on the frontline of some of the greatest release and to provide the reassurance they need and challenges that the alliance faces, so we are working comfort to the family. with Turkey and all the European and North American partners to try to bring it into the fold and make sure Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): What that it is focused on NATO’s priorities. proposals has the Minister for the Wilton Park conference on Nigeria later this month as regards reducing the persecution of Christians in that country? Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab): I think the Foreign Secretary inadvertently said that the Prime Minister Andrew Stephenson: As my right hon. Friend knows, was launching the COP26 plans with Richard we take freedom of religion and belief extremely seriously, Attenborough today, but of course he is no longer with and the Prime Minister’senvoy,my hon. Friend the Member us. He might want to take the opportunity to correct for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), is working the record. closely with me on the plans for that conference. 175 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 176

Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out is from getting it right, as does the fact that this delay is needed to avoid further hardship to those in receipt of Mr Speaker: We now come to the first urgent question, the benefit. which I expect to run for 45 minutes. Ministers say, as the Minister said again just now, that the delay is needed because people are scared to go 12.30 pm on universal credit. They say it like they are actually Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP) (Urgent Question): surprised. The great irony is that if this Tory Government To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to were to listen and do what expert charities and those make a statement regarding the delay to the full roll-out actually in receipt of universal credit were saying, these of universal credit. delays would not be needed. Will the UK Government use this delay productively The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work by making a meaningful investment in universal credit and Pensions (Will Quince): The Secretary of State and to see it fixed, scrapping the two-child cap and rape I informed Parliament yesterday that we had revisited clause, ending the debt and poverty-inducing five-week our forecast for universal credit and were extending its wait and making work pay by fully restoring work completion date to 2024. Our planning for universal allowances? credit relies on assumptions about the number of people Finally, will the Minister confirm that this delay means whose circumstances will change each day,thereby naturally that more people will be part of the natural rather than migrating. Our forecasts to date have relied on 50,000 the managed migration process, which in turn will mean households experiencing a change in circumstances each that those recipients will lose out on transitional payments, month. Based on this, we had predicted that the process thus saving the Government more money at the expense of natural migration to universal credit would be completed of people who actually need it? by December 2023. Informationcollectedonchangestopeople’scircumstances Will Quince: I have not yet seen the BBC documentary, suggests that natural migration is happening less frequently and I suspect that the hon. Gentleman has not done so than we expected. This suggests broad stability in people’s either, because it is due to be aired shortly. However, it is lives and can be attributed to a number of reasons, important to stress that officials discussed advice to be including the robustness of the labour market. We now sent to Ministers late in 2019, and the final discussions estimate that 900,000 fewer households will naturally were held with Ministers in 2020. Parliament was then migrate between now and December 2023 than we had informed. This relates to the back end of the timetable, forecast. Given that we expect to manage about 100,000 which concerns people moving to universal credit in households to universal credit each month, it necessarily 2024-25, so the change was communicated in good time. follows that if we are to protect the interests of claimants The hon. Gentleman referred to cost, and it is important and move them to universal credit safely it will take a to put that in context. This is additional money that will further nine months to complete the implementation of go into the pockets of our claimants, some of the most universal credit. vulnerable and disadvantaged in our country. About I can assure colleagues that claimants will not lose 900,000 people could now receive transitional protection money from their universal credit award owing to this who would not have been able to receive it through forecasting change. We will always put the best interests natural migration. of our claimants first, and as we move into the managed migration phase protecting the vulnerable will be our Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I welcome utmost concern. my hon. Friend’s clarification of the need for this Neil Gray: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this reforecasting. May I invite him to restate the Government’s urgent question, which I believe is the first to be granted total commitment to a universal credit arrangement to the SNP under your speakership. that simplifies the system? It means dealing with one Department rather than three, it combines six benefits The UK Government still have no respect for the into one, it helps people to get into work more quickly, House. They let the BBC announce this delay as part of and it smooths their transition into work thereafter. a news trail for the documentary being aired tonight, without a written ministerial statement—I have not seen one, so can the Minister tell the House where it is? Will Quince: I thank my right hon. Friend for his question, and for all the work that he did in our Department. I feel for the Minister, being forced to stand here today, He is absolutely right: universal credit is a modern, because I know it was not his decision to withhold that flexible, personalised benefit that reflects the rapidly information from colleagues. Where is the Secretary of changing world of work. Conservative Members believe State? This should have been an oral ministerial statement. that work should always pay, and that we need a welfare Quotes from the documentary seem to suggest that system that helps people into work, supports those who this decision was taken by a senior official, not the need help, and is fair to everyone who pays for it. Secretary of State. Has she abandoned decision-making oversight? When did she sanction this decision? Perhaps Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab): Yesterday there was no oral ministerial statement because she the BBC reported that the Government had decided to found out only last night, like the rest of us—what an delay the roll-out of universal credit until September absolute shambles. 2024, adding £500 million to its overall cost. That is Universal credit was supposed to have been fully hugely embarrassing for the Government: yet again, rolled out by 2017. This further delay means that it will they have had to delay what is meant to be their flagship have been delayed by a further seven years at a potential social security policy. Last week the Minister told the cost of £500 million. It highlights how far universal credit House that they had managed to process fewer than 177 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out4 FEBRUARY 2020 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 178

80 households since July, as part of what was meant to reluctant to be moved on to universal credit. It has a be a pilot of up to 10,000 households in Harrogate, and dreadful reputation, largely because for the first five that only about 13 of those households had transferred weeks that they are on it the only help they can get is a to universal credit. At that rate, it would take the loan. Claimants on universal credit are two and a half Government more than 380 years to complete their times more likely to need a food bank than those on the managed migration pilot. previous benefits.Will Ministers look urgently at drastically Universal credit was supposed to make work pay, but cutting that five-week delay? instead it has caused misery for thousands across the country. It seems from yesterday’s report that senior Will Quince: First, I congratulate the right hon. civil servants think people are too scared to transfer to Gentleman on his election as Chairman of the Work it. Can the Minister tell us why so many people are and Pensions Committee. I take all issues around policy scared? Is it because of the five-week wait that is pushing in my Department, in the areas in which I have control, so many families into debt and rent arrears, and making very seriously and I am happy to work with him. Are them turn to food banks to survive? Is it because of the there improvements that we can make to universal two-child limit, which the Child Poverty Action Group credit? Yes, of course there are, and I look forward to has described as working with him find some of those solutions. “a policy designed to increase child poverty”? Is it because of the sanctions regime that has made Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con): Is the some of the most vulnerable people in our society Minister as surprised as I am that, when questions destitute? Or is it down to the fact that, according to the about universal credit come up, people have a clear Government’s own research, nearly 50% of claimants tendency to forget that the legacy benefits system leaves were not able to make a claim online unassisted? a lot to be desired and traps people in jobs where they cannot work more hours? Universal credit is a massive It is clear that the Government have been forced to improvement. Of course there are going to be issues, delay universal credit yet again because people do not but I for one am pleased that the Minister is taking this have confidence in the system. Can the Minister tell us cautiously and carefully. Universal credit helps people what they intend to do with the extra time? Will they get to get into work and makes work pay, and he should not rid of the five-week wait? Will they scrap the two-child be embarrassed about it at all. limit? Will they call a halt to the sanctions regime that is pushing people into destitution? And will they now Will Quince: I thank my right hon. Friend for his apologise to all the people whom they have pushed into question. The previous system has been described as hardship through universal credit, and create a social clunky and confusing, as leading to overpayments and security system that protects people from poverty and therefore ongoing deductions, as acting as a disincentive treats them with respect? to work through cliff edges at 16, 24 and 30 hours, and in some cases as a marginal tax rate of 90p in the Will Quince: The hon. Lady says that I should be pound. Labour was content to have people trapped in a embarrassed. I will never be embarrassed about putting life on benefits. What did that mean for the life chances the most vulnerable and disadvantaged people in our of people and their children? Under universal credit, it society first, and neither will the Government. She talked always pays to work and increase your hours. about cost. As I have said, this is up to £500 million of additional money that will go into the pockets of our Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): The final delivery claimants. When she referred to the pilot, she was of universal credit seems to be even later than a Northern conflating two very separate issues. She also said that train. It is a demonstration of the incompetence of this people were scared. Perhaps if members of the Labour Government that they have wrecked the benefits system party desisted from their scaremongering and spent in this way. When universal credit was rolled out in my more time in our jobcentres speaking to work coaches, constituency as one of the experiments—they never do they would have a better understanding of universal experiments in their own constituencies—it caused a credit and how well it is working. tenfold increase in food bank usage and huge hardship— Stephen McPartland (Stevenage) (Con): I am certainly [Interruption.] The Minister can pretend all he likes no fan of the Department for Work and Pensions and that that did not happen, but I know from my own its campaign to improve universal credit, but I do know advice surgery that this benefit causes misery. that this Minister cares about making universal credit work, and this Minister has my full backing to make it Will Quince: Let us instead look at the facts. Universal work—and I have worked with many Ministers over the credit will give claimants an extra £2.1 billion a year, last 10 years. Will he tell me clearly, however, whether once it has been fully rolled out, compared with the my constituents will be better off or worse off because system that it replaces. Around 1 million disabled house- of the way in which the migration works? holds will receive an average of around £100 more a month, and 700,000 families will get the extra money Will Quince: I thank my hon. Friend for his question that they are entitled to—around £285 a month—under and for his kind words. The answer is a categorical yes: universal credit. Claimants will have access to around his constituents will be better off. Under our forecasting, £2.4 billion of previously unclaimed benefits—benefits around 900,000 people will now be eligible for transitional that they did not receive under the legacy benefits system protection, and as a result they will be better off. of the previous Labour Government.

Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab): I congratulate the Michael Tomlinson (Mid Dorset and North Poole) hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) on (Con): I simply do not understand why Opposition securing this urgent question. Claimants are extremely Members are so against this system, which is helping 179 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out4 FEBRUARY 2020 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 180

[Michael Tomlinson] the Minister for deep-fried Mars bars is at the Dispatch Box, will he explain why he still has not apologised to people into work. I have visited my jobcentre in Poole, me and my colleagues? where work coaches are so positive about the universal credit system because it gives them the tools to get Will Quince: I hope you recall, Mr Speaker, that I did people into work. It is not just Conservative Members make a full, frank and unreserved apology in this Chamber. who support universal credit; it is also those who have As for the case that the hon. Lady raises, if she would been helped into work by our work coaches. like to write to me with the details, I will happily look into it. There are strict Treasury rules about errors and Will Quince: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and deductions, but I will be happy to look at them. I thank him for visiting his jobcentre. If more Members James Cartlidge (South Suffolk) (Con): Will my hon. across the House did so, they would have a better Friend confirm that today’s announcement does not understanding of the system and of how our work change the fundamental course of our policy, which is coaches feel about it. They would find that, as my hon. to move awayfrom a perverse legacy system that incentivised Friend rightly says, it is a valuable tool to help people to claimants to minimise the number of hours worked to get into work and to progress in work. We should all be one that incentivises them to maximise their hours and proud of it. gives them a chance to move away from long-term benefit dependency? Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): In a written answer to me, the Secretary of State has conceded: Will Quince: I thank my hon. Friend for that question “As the two-child limit policy was introduced in April 2017 and for his support for universal credit and, indeed, his there is insufficient data to assess any impacts of the policy on local jobcentre. We believe that work should always pay, low income.” and we need a welfare system that helps people into Almost three years on, we still do not have sufficient work, supports those who need help, and is fair to the data to assess the impacts. Will the Secretary of State taxpayers who pay for it. It is important to stress—my and the Minister take the opportunity provided by this hon. Friend is right about this—that it always pays to period of grace that they have granted themselves to get work and increase one’s hours under universal credit. proper statistics on the effect of the two-child rule on That was not the case under the legacy benefit system. people of ethnic and religious backgrounds, and at local authority and parliamentary constituency level? Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab): Overwhelming evidence from the pilot areas such as Wigan and debt charities such as StepChange shows that the five-week Will Quince: I am not entirely sure about the correlation wait is causing further debt problems. Will the Minister between that question and this urgent question but, use this delay to rescind and reconsider this policy nevertheless, the hon. Gentleman can write to me, or I urgently? would be happy to meet him to discuss the issue further. I cannot guarantee that we will agree, but I will be Will Quince: I have huge respect for the hon. Lady, happy to listen to him to understand the issues he raises. and I would be happy to visit her constituency to meet some of the organisations she references. It is important Rachel Maclean (Redditch) (Con): When I visited my to state that nobody has to wait five weeks for an initial jobcentre in Redditch, which, contrary to some suggestions payment, which can be done on day one. It is repayable from the Opposition, has had full roll-out of universal over 12 months but, as of next year, that will be extended credit since October 2017, I found work coaches to be to 16 months. We also have additional measures such as incredibly positive about the transformational help being the two-week housing run-on and, as of July this year, a given to their clients. Does the Minister agree that the further two-week run-on of other legacy benefits. Are constant scaremongering and muddling from Opposition there further improvements that I would like to make? Members is the problem? First they want to scrap Yes, of course there are. They would all require Treasury universal credit, then they want to pause it—who knows approval, but I would be happy to work with hon. Lady what they would do? We need to be on the side of the to look at them in further detail. people, and I am glad that this Government are. Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con): I, too, have Will Quince: My hon. Friend is quite right. At every visited my jobcentre and its staff universally welcome single jobcentre that I visit—I visit one every week on universal credit—there is no doubt about that—but average —I get that same feedback, and the one thing there have been one or two hiccups. When an employer that staff would like to change is the reputation. It would tends to pay early, say at Christmas, that does tend to be helpful if Opposition Members visited their jobcentres, muck up the next month’s universal credit payment. spoke with work coaches, got that understanding, and Are we trying to resolve that issue? desisted with the unhelpful scaremongering. Will Quince: My hon. Friend asks a pertinent question that was raised by six separate colleagues at oral questions Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): My only last week. I am looking closely at this area and constituent, a mature student with a wife and child, intend to organise a roundtable with interested colleagues claimed UC and provided all the information that was and officials to explore how we can tackle the issue. required. The DWP later announced that it had made an error and asked my constituent to pay back £2,416. Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) He has had to give up his studies, and his family is now (Lab): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for in hardship. Does that incompetence not demonstrate Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) on his urgent question. why people are so scared to make a UC claim? While Policy in Practice analysis shows that disabled people 181 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out4 FEBRUARY 2020 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 182 lose an average of £3,000 a year, but they are not the better at helping people to get into jobs and stay in only group to lose money under universal credit. In them. Is it any surprise that under this Government the addition to considering the five-week wait, about which number of people in work is up more than 3.8 million so many of my colleagues have raised issues, will the since 2010, and the employment rate is 76.3%, a record Minister examine increased support for disabled people? high? Disabled people and children are being plunged into poverty as a result of this benefit. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): Given this latest delay, which follows endless repeated delays Will Quince: I think I have already answered this over the last few years, can the Minister assure the question. Around 1 million disabled households will House that sufficient investment is being made to maintain receive an average of £100 more per month under the legacy systems, which will now have to last an universal credit. Importantly, the claimants will have additional seven and a half years longer than originally access to around £2.4 billion of previously unclaimed envisaged? benefits that, for all sorts of reasons, they did not claim under the legacy benefit system. Will Quince: I can of course give that commitment, Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con): but I stress that this is a change in policy based on Harrogate and Knaresborough has been a trial area for forecasts. Forecasts do change, and it is responsible of universal credit since it started, including being the Ministers to look at them and change policy accordingly. location for the legacy migration. I have therefore followed If the forecast changes, I will of course look at it, as will universal credit for many years and I have spoken with the Secretary of State, and where necessary,act accordingly. claimants, employers and the team at Harrogate jobcentre who have done a great job. They all report positive Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con): We hear a lot from feedback. There are obviously some problems, but there the Opposition, and we certainly did during the election, were problems with the previous system. Universal credit about scrapping universal credit or sections of it, but I is helping people to get into work and to make work and many people in this Chamber would much rather pay. Will the Minister continue the focus on making have a change of forecast than a change to the entire work pay? system, and certainly the jobcentres would agree with that. Will the Minister tell us what, if anything, claimants Will Quince: I thank my hon. Friend for his very will notice on the ground from the change in forecasts? helpful question and for his support of universal credit and his local jobcentre. I am full of praise for those staff Will Quince: I thank my hon. Friend for that question, working in the jobcentre at Harrogate and the work that and I welcome her to her place and indeed to her they are doing on the pilot. That is hugely important position on the Select Committee. Most claimants will work, because it sets the scene and gives us the all not notice any difference whatever, other than that an important data and learnings we need to move out universal extra 900,000 will be eligible for transitional protection. credit at scale and pace. She raises an important point. The IFS slammed Labour’s pledge to scrap universal credit as uncosted and Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab): In the last 18 months, … a food bank in my constituency has seen an increase of “unwise expensive, disruptive and unnecessary.” two thirds in people using it. Will the Government It is important to point out that no Labour Government accept that more people in the UK—including those in have ever left office with unemployment lower than employment—are using food banks than ever before, as when they started. a direct result of policies such as universal credit, the five-week wait and the two-child limit? Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP): The Minister is correct that he apologised to Glasgow MPs, Will Quince: I do not want anyone in our country to but he told us he would write to us that day and we are have no choice but to use or visit a food bank. I visit still waiting. Delays seem to be an important part of his food banks regularly,and I want to get a clear understanding stewardship. of food insecurity in our country. That is why we have commissioned questions for the Family Resources Survey, On the five-week wait and given that we now know which started in April last year. I am also working with from parliamentary answers that the Department receives food banks and other organisations that tackle food £50 million a month in repayments from advances, insecurity to better understand the issue. If we better surely that now tells us to scrap the five-week wait and understand the issue, we will know how to tackle it. make sure the first payment is not a loan or an advance payment, but a first payment for universal credit. David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) (Con): Does my hon. Friend recognise as I do that the Will Quince: It is a system based on arrears, not on opening of the food banks that serve my constituency in advances, unlike the legacy benefit system. The hon. 2009 was a response to the deep-seated problems at the Gentleman knows that people are able to access an height of Labour welfare spending? Does he agree that advance on day one repayable over 12 months. That will the feedback from local authority areas where universal extend to 16 months next year and I am looking at credit has been rolled out has been that it is a much whether we can explore options to extend that further. more supportive system than the legacy system? We have made further changes—scrapping the seven-day wait, the additional two-week run-on, the two-week Will Quince: I thank my hon. Friend for that question. run-on starting in July of legacy benefits—and, where He is absolutely right: it is a far better system than the there are further changes we can make, I am of course previous legacy benefit system. We know it is working willing to look at them and act where appropriate. 183 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out4 FEBRUARY 2020 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 184

Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I commend the Will Quince: Universal credit is an evolving system Government for delaying the roll-out of universal credit and it is a relatively new system. I meet with stakeholders and, indeed, for the changes that they have made to the and Members from both sides of the House on a system over the last four years or so, but may I ask the regular basis, and where there are improvements that we Minister to give serious consideration to getting rid of can make quickly, I will of course look at them and the five-week wait, notwithstanding the answer he gave make them. Where there are changes that can take a to the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue)? longer period of time, I can start setting those in train. I In my experience, it is causing very serious challenges would be very happy to meet the hon. Lady and discuss for my constituents. the issue she raises in further detail.

Will Quince: I thank my hon. Friend for his question Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con): One of the very first and the constructive way in which he put it, but I must constituency visits I made as a new MP was to Aylesbury respectfully disagree with him. There is no five-week jobcentre. Does my hon. Friend agree with me, and with wait. People are able to access their advance on day one. the work coaches and claimants I met there, that universal credit is a much better system than what went before because it positively incentivises people to find a job? Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD): Can the Minister tell us whether we can now expect to see an improvement Will Quince: My hon. Friend is right for all the to the kind of delays that many applicants are experiencing reasons that he points out, but I would go further and in their applications being processed? Will the Minister say that it is the personal relationship with a work coach commit himself to publishing some statistics so that we that makes it so very different to the legacy benefits can see whether the impact of this delay has resulted in system. Work coaches will work with people to help an improvement to those kinds of delays? them get work ready, to get into work and then to progress into the job that they want and that suits their Will Quince: I am a little confused, because my family. understanding is that those performance stats are indeed available. The Department has a very good record on Sir Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): My payments and payment timeliness. Can we improve? Of constituency was one of the trials for universal credit, course we can, and I meet with officials on at least a and all we have seen since its introduction is debt, poverty, weekly basis to discuss that. In many cases, it is down hunger and homelessness. How is that putting the claimant not just to the Department but to how the claimant first? provides information. Weare putting in additional resource, where appropriate, to help people to help themselves to Will Quince: I do not recognise those statistics, or get us that important information that we need to process indeed the correlation. I do not know when the hon. the claims. Gentleman last visited his jobcentre, but I would strongly recommend he does so to discuss with work coaches the Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Will the Minister difference that universal credit is making in his constituency. confirm that one solution to this would be to get more If he has specific concerns, I invite him to write to me uptake for the excellent help to claim service through and I will look at them in detail. Citizens Advice? Will he confirm that service will be extended so that it is there for the whole period through Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) to the end of the roll-out? (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that if people out there are scared, the blame, at least in part, is with the Opposition parties, whose reckless, irresponsible Will Quince: I thank my hon. Friend for that question scaremongering paints a picture wholly at odds with the and for his work on the Select Committee. He is right: picture on the ground in jobcentres across the UK? help to claim, commissioned via the Department and run by Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland, is Will Quince: My hon. Friend raises a good point. working really well. We are now in detailed discussions When I speak to and visit jobcentres and work coaches, in relation to a second year, but I want to go further and they always tell me that the one thing they want to change in April we will launch a £10 million transitional fund is reputation. While Opposition Members continually for UC, in particular to support disadvantaged and talk down universal credit and say they would scrap vulnerable groups. It will also help Members, because it—against the advice and guidance from organisations organisations in their constituencies will be able to bid such as the IFS and many charities—they are not helping for that funding. the situation a jot.

Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): If I Co-op): The Public Accounts Committee is not in the accept that part of the Minister’s motivation is to business of scaremongering, but from the very beginning protect the interests of those on legacy benefits, will he we have raised concerns about the pace and the over- equally accept that those who are wrongly transferred ambitious nature of this policy. Only today, the Minister to universal credit because of erroneous advice from a listed so many changes that have taken place since it was jobcentre, should have their interests protected by an rolled out that it shows there is a problem. In our last automatic right to at least have their legacy benefits session on this issue, we heard from local authorities restored? about the millions of pounds they are having to put aside to help people. With this extra time, will he look at Will Quince: The hon. Gentleman raises a pertinent what support he can give local authorities who are point. I am looking at that very issue. I would be happy having to backfill mistakes by his Department? to meet him to discuss it further; it does concern me. 185 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out4 FEBRUARY 2020 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 186

On his first point, I will always put disadvantaged and principle. If he would like to write to me with any vulnerable residents at the forefront of my mind in any statistics or figures that support his claims, I would be decision making that I undertake while in this role. happy to look at them.

Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): The Neil Coyle (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (Lab): Minister is exactly right in the careful, pragmatic approach The Minister accuses charities of scaremongering, but that he is taking to roll-out; it is what responsible are not people right to fear the debt, poverty, food bank Ministers do. However, may I encourage my hon. Friend reliance, homelessness and even survival sex work that to follow his instincts and, in his discussions with the universal credit and the five-week wait have been evidenced Treasury, make the case for improving universal credit? to create—even seen by the Work and Pensions Committee? The truth is that if we are to improve this good policy further, it will require resource. Will Quince: I have worked very closely with the hon. Gentleman on issues such as homelessness. He knows Will Quince: I thank my right hon. Friend for his that I share his passion to ensure that our welfare helpful question and for all the work that he did while at system works, and supports the most vulnerable and the Department. He, like me, believes that work should disadvantaged in our society. However, it is important always pay, and that we need a welfare system that helps to point out that we spend £95 billion a year on benefits people into work. My mind is full of ideas on how we for working-age people, so we will continue to reform can improve universal credit, and if he would like to our welfare system so that it encourages work while help me in persuading the Treasury to get behind those, supporting those who need help—an approach that is I would very much welcome that. based on the clear evidence that work offers families the best opportunity to get out of poverty. Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Barnsley food bank gave out over 4,000 food parcels to people in Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): On Friday I crisis in a year. The Minister appears to be in complete visited Coventry food bank, where demand has shot up denial. Why will the Government not accept that the in the past few years. I asked the staff why. Their answer increase in food bank use has a direct link to policies was immediate and unequivocal—universal credit. Will such as universal credit, and that it is about time it was the Government finally accept that many more people scrapped? than ever before, many of whom are in employment, are using food banks as a direct result of universal credit, Will Quince: I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I the five-week wait and the two-child limit? could not disagree more, but I do agree with her that I do not want to see anybody feeling that they have no Will Quince: I thank the hon. Lady for her question choice but to visit a food bank. I want to better understand but do not accept the anecdotal points that she makes. this issue, which is why I visit food banks. I meet food Governments and Ministers make and take decisions bank organisations and other organisations that help to based on evidence. I am building the evidence base tackle food insecurity. I would be happy to meet the within the Department based on the family resource hon. Lady to discuss this further. There is a huge amount survey and the questions in it in relation to food insecurity, of ongoing work. and working with food bank providers—the Trussell Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): I very Trust being one, but there are around 800 independent much welcome the approach that the Minister and his food bank providers—to better understand the issues predecessors have taken on this issue, keeping universal and how we can tackle food insecurity in the round and credit under review and making changes where appropriate, for good. but can he assure me that some things about universal credit will not change—that it will always be a system Steven Bonnar (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) that is fair to claimants and the taxpayer, and that being (SNP): This Government need to take a long, hard look in work will always pay? at themselves and the pressures they are placing on hard-working, low-income families and individuals. I Will Quince: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend do not trust the Minister’s pledges. For a hard-working, that assurance. Under universal credit, it will always loving parent, it is absolutely,gut-wrenchingly worrying— pay to work and it will always pay to do more hours. which is no doubt beyond the comprehension of many That is the principle that we stand by, and we will stick of the privileged folk of this place—to find out that the by it. moneys they are depending on, and entitled to, will not be coming. I do not need to visit a jobcentre to know Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and that; I speak with some authority on the matter, because Strathspey) (SNP): My constituency was the guinea pig until my election to this place, I was a universal credit for universal credit, and we had no protection over our claimant, as a single parent. I ask the Minister to scrap transition. By 2024, Inverness will have endured 10 years the five-week wait and stop plunging hard-working of chaos, delays and hardship. What will the Minister families and individuals into further debt by making it do to compensate those claimants who have already necessary for them to avail themselves of a loan from been through this mill, and will he do something about the DWP. repaying the £3 million in additional administration costs that Highland Council has incurred in order to Will Quince: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his operate universal credit? question. I would suggest very strongly that he should visit his local jobcentre, because he would have a better Will Quince: First, I do not recognise the statistics understanding. [Interruption.] and figures that the hon. Gentleman raises. I feel that he has a permanent prejudice against universal credit in Mr Speaker: Order. Peter Grant. 187 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out4 FEBRUARY 2020 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 188

Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): Will the Minister Will Quince: Let us look at some facts: the number of reconsider the ill-advised and, frankly, insulting use of people in work has increased by more than 3.8 million the word “scaremongering”? It is not scaremongering since 2010; the employment rate is 76.3%, which is a when food banks talk about a massive increase in record high; the unemployment rate is 3.8%, having demand, and when local authorities report huge increases gone down by more than half since 2010; and 80% of in rent arrears; nor is it scaremongering for local authorities the growth in employment since 2010 has been in full-time to report having to spend a lot of their scarce resources work. We are very proud of our record, but we are not to make up for the shortfalls of universal credit. If the complacent and our ambition is to go much, much Minister wants to insult me by accusing me of scare- further. mongering, that is fair enough; when he insults me for raising the concerns of my constituents, he insults my Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): Perhaps if constituents. Will he apologise for that, and will he the Tory MPs had my case load, they would recognise reconsider the inflammatory language he has used? the misery and poverty that their policies caused. This week, another constituent contacted me because she Will Quince: I meet stakeholders in relation to the had been denied the vital UC cash she needs, as she is Department every single week, and I take the concerns paid four-weekly and this last month she received two and issues they raise very seriously because they are payments from her employers. When will this anomaly largely based on evidence. When I refer to scaremongering, be sorted out and people not be left unable to pay their I refer to the tone and language and rhetoric so often bills? used by Opposition Members. Will Quince: I believe I answered this question a little I did not quite get to answer the question by the hon. earlier today. I am looking at the issue, and I will invite Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Steven the hon. Gentleman, along with other colleagues who Bonnar) and in fairness, I should. He mentioned hard- have an interest in this area, to the Department to raise working people. It is important to stress that income it with officials. We are looking at solutions. It is not inequality has been falling under this Government in potentially an easy or quick fix, but if we can address real terms. The national living wage will rise to £8.72 in this, of course we will. April, and to £10.50 by 2024. Our tax changes will make a basic rate taxpayer more than £1,200 better off. We Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I see the delay as a have doubled the free childcare available to working wise step by government to reassess, and I congratulate parents. We are doing a huge amount to tackle the cost the Minister on not enforcing a transfer to UC on of living and to support working parents. people, who know it will see them in a five-week freeze. Will he use this delay to introduce a smoother, more Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): I workable transition period, to prevent people from getting think the Minister is quite a fair-minded man, but does into debt? he agree that the best policies for our welfare state are evidence-based? That means not just visiting constituencies Will Quince: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that and looking at jobcentres, but looking at the health question. The important point here is that when we talk sector. Ask GPs; ask the people running our hospitals about the £500 million cost, we are talking about and healthcare. They will tell us, and him, the real £500 million that will go into the pockets of claimants impact on people’s health up and down the country as up and down the country, including some of the most one of the side effects of this silly, misguided policy. vulnerable and disadvantaged people in our country, who previously would not have received that transitional protection under the legacy benefits system or in their Will Quince: I meet all sorts of organisations up and transfer over under natural migration. down the country, and they often raise some of the issues that the hon. Gentleman raises. Where there are Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): issues with our system that I can make changes to Although I would visit jobcentres in my constituency quickly, I look at them, and if they do not have a huge on a more regular basis, it does not help when the fiscal impact, I will make them. Otherwise, we have to Department shuts them, as it did the one in the Vale of look to fiscal events. However, universal credit is an Leven. Given a substantial increase in the uptake of evolving process. If there are improvements that we can support through the two food banks, Food for Thought make—and I believe that there are—we should make and West Dunbartonshire Community Foodshare,although them. I am looking at those very closely; if the hon. we may disagree on the implementation, I hope the Gentleman has ideas, I would be happy to hear them. Minister takes the opportunity to agree with me that with this extension and additional moneys going into Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): The the process there is an opportunity to reflect on what National Audit Office has said there is no evidence that has gone on before, especially for those Members, such universal credit gets people into work, and that there is as myself, whose constituents do not feel as though they no way of measuring it from the Government’sperspective. have been treated properly. The roll-out of universal credit in my constituency has caused council housing rent arrears to double, so that is Will Quince: We have more than 630 jobcentres up putting a burden on local rent payers. In November and down our country, so there will be a jobcentre 2018, income assessment period deductions for people within reach of the hon. Gentleman. He raises a number getting two pay packets were found to be illegal. The of points. We are always looking at how we can improve Minister says he has lots of ideas to improve universal UC, and if he has ideas, he can either write to me or credit; can he give us an idea to improve at least one of come to see me, because I am very approachable—we those aspects? could even share a deep fried Mars bar together. 189 Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out 4 FEBRUARY 2020 190

Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con): No Lobby and Media Briefings: one should agree an embargo with the BBC and expect Journalists’ Access it to be kept, should they?

Will Quince: It is probably best that I do not comment 1.12 pm on this. We had intended to come to this House this week to announce this. Unfortunately, we got this done Tracy Brabin (Batley and Spen) (Lab/Co-op) (Urgent yesterday via a letter to the Work and Pensions Committee Question): To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Chair and indeed a “Dear colleague” letter to myself, Lancaster if he will make a statement on the barring of and I am here today to answer Members’questions, which certain journalists from official civil servant media briefings I hope has been valuable. at the direction of special advisers and the arrangements for future lobby and media briefings.

The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Chloe Smith): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to clarify this situation. This Government are committed to being open in their dealings with the press and to the principles of media freedom, and the events of yesterday were a good example of that. The Prime Minister delivered a speech on the future of the UK-EU relationship. He also took extensive questions from journalists.Following that, there was a further briefing for journalists by the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson, which was made available to any journalist who wanted it directly after the speech and was all on the record. Lobby briefings typically take place twice a day. All those with a Press Gallery pass are able to attend these briefings and to question the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson however they wish. No journalists are barred from official media briefings hosted by the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson. It is entirely standard practice for the Government to host additional technical, specialist briefings,as was the case yesterday.This particular briefing, which the media have reported on, was an additional, smaller meeting due to be held by a special adviser in order to improve the understanding of the Government’s negotiating aims for the future relationship. I am delighted that there are so many right hon. and hon. Members here today who would also like to improve their understanding of such things.

Tracy Brabin: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for granting this timely and important urgent question. The ability of the lobby to have access to briefings without favour is a long-standing tradition, and one vital to the health of a functioning democracy.Yesterday,certain publications were barred from a briefing on future trade deals with David Frost, the Prime Minister’s adviser on Europe. According to reports, when journalists from other news outlets arrived, the Prime Minister’s director of communications, a special adviser, said: “Those invited to the briefing can stay—everyone else, I’m afraid, will have to leave.” When challenged, he added: “We’re welcome to brief whoever we like, whenever we like.” The code of conduct for special advisers states that “special advisers must not: ask civil servants to do anything which is inconsistent with their obligations under the Civil Service Code”. On the David Frost briefing yesterday, will the Minister tell us who decided which journalists could attend and what the selection criteria were? If that decision was made by a special adviser, are they in violation of both the code of conduct for special advisers and the civil service code? Can she confirm whether civil servants were in attendance? 191 Lobby and Media Briefings: 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lobby and Media Briefings: 192 Journalists’ Access Journalists’ Access [Tracy Brabin] leaves unresolved problems.There is no greater competition for an MP trying to get themselves into the media than Sadly,yesterday was not an isolated incident; the Huawei from media people trying to get themselves reported briefing last week was exactly the same. I understand and on air, but they walked away from it, so there is a that that was given by Ciaran Martin of the National problem and it needs solving. Cyber Security Centre, plus civil servants from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department Chloe Smith: I am extremely grateful to my hon. for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport. So will the Minister Friend the Father of the House for his wisdom and long tell us who decided which journalists could attend and sight on this issue. He shares with us exactly what these what the selection criteria were? If that decision was things looked like over successive Governments, which made by a special adviser, are they in violation of both is to say that it is quite routine for there to be lobby the code of conduct for special advisers and the civil briefings on a regular basis—we run them twice daily—and service code? In addition, where is the reply to the letter in addition to that some specialist and technical briefings. to the Cabinet Secretary Sir Mark Sedwill reported in I understand the point that my hon. Friend closed his The Times, as, apparently, he does not have “a problem” contribution with and am sure that that will be correctly with this? Can the Minister confirm what the Cabinet considered. It is so valuable that we hear from him, Secretary’s advice is and whether he believes there have given his long sight on this issue, which reminds us how been breaches of the special adviser code of conduct in these things look over history. either case? Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): Finally, on 13 January the editors of those national What the hon. Lady said is woeful and desperate. It newspapers, with the Society of Editors, wrote to the makes Comical Ali look like a Pulitzer prize winner. Prime Minister, but we still do not have the reply. When Yesterday was a black day for press freedom and no was it sent? Has it been written? The Government’s amount of sleekit, self-justifying nonsense from the behaviour in these matters threatens the civil service’s hon. Lady is going to get her off the Trumpian hook. core values of impartiality and objectivity. It also brings The next thing will be the Prime Minister talking about into question the integrity of future Government media fake news and banning broadcasters—oh, wait: he already briefings and the conduct of their special advisers, and has. Just how sinister can it get? The names of journalists it damages a free and vibrant press, which is central to were read out and groups assembled on either side of a this parliamentary democracy. rug before it was announced who would have access and who would be excluded. No Scottish media outlets were Chloe Smith: I am more than willing to repeat the even told about the briefing. I congratulate all the points I made, which were that this briefing was additional journalists involved yesterday for showing solidarity to normal lobby handlings. Those lobby handlings are with their colleagues and refusing to participate in that entirely normal, standard and routine, and have been so circus. We know that the Prime Minister dislikes scrutiny over successive Governments. I am not taking any further and actively hides from the press; we know that Dominic lectures from the Labour party, which needs to look in Cummings and his henchmen have their own agenda the mirror a little on this. The hon. Lady is part of a and are actively trying to bypass and diminish the shadow Government who wish to regulate and introduce media; and we all know that the Prime Minister looks Soviet-style licensing of newspapers; and whose leader and like a prize buffoon under the hard questioning that he shadow Chancellor take money from media organisations, does not like. Is that not the real reason why we have such as Press TV, which are owned by foreign, hostile this particular agenda, Minister? Governments. Under that culture, a BBC editor had to have protection at the Labour party conference, and the Chloe Smith: The short answer to the hon. Gentleman’s shadow Chancellor encourages direct action against question is no. The longer answer is that he, too, should journalists who do not write what he likes. Conservative be careful about what he says. If he wants to hand out Members strongly support the free press. I have set out prizes, perhaps he might look back to the days when the ways in which we do that. In addition to the briefings Alex Salmond, formerly of this parish, used to routinely and the very normal routine operation of the lobby, the exclude journalists from his briefings. There is a tinge Prime Minister has a huge amount of further appointments here, Mr Speaker, of people who are not willing to look and engagements on a range of channels. For example, at their own record before they come here and prance he did more than 120 media engagements during the around with a few too many adjectives. election. Senior members of the Government come to The other thing I would add is that we on the this House to answer those questions again, and we Government Benches, like others in other parties, are intend to continue doing those things. That choice is proud Unionists. We recognise that there are national absolutely clear, and we on this side of the House stand broadcasters that deal with all parts of our country.Long up for a free and vibrant press. The hon. Lady needs to may that last. ask herself and her colleagues the same questions. Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): There clearly do Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): I do not need to be better arrangements for lobby briefings than think that anything has happened so far that matches was the case yesterday, but I detect the faint air of fake what Alastair Campbell did in trying to get political outrage. When I was a journalist, I regarded it as my job editors sacked and saying that the then Government to talk to the people who could tell me what I needed to would not co-operate at all. It would be sensible for the do to provide the story. Indeed, when I was a Minister, Government to consider talking to the senior political if I wanted to talk to individual journalists, there were editors who walked out, to see whether there is a way of ways of doing so that might be useful to me and to the getting over this problem and resolving it. Much of individual journalists. I agree with the Father of the what my hon. Friend has said is fine, but the last bit House that there need to be improvements in the system, 193 Lobby and Media Briefings: 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lobby and Media Briefings: 194 Journalists’ Access Journalists’ Access but does my hon. Friend the Minister agree that what we Brendan Clarke-Smith (Bassetlaw) (Con): Does the are seeing here is some fake outrage and a mass outbreak Minister agree that it is ridiculous for the Labour party of snowflakery? to pose as champions of press freedom when, as mentioned earlier, the BBC’s political editor has to be assigned a Chloe Smith: I am grateful for that view from a senior bodyguard to attend the Labour party conference? Does Member of the House. My right hon. Friend is correct: she agree that that is unacceptable and that our press what we are seeing here is a very normal operation should be able to report without fear? whereby a specialist briefing is offered. That is a good thing, and we are doing that to support the other ways Chloe Smith: The press certainly should be able to in which we are already an extremely open and accessible report without fear. We are strongly in support of there Government, providing briefing and access through a being a free press. Let me point to another example, range of channels so that people can be well-informed. which is that of the Cairncross review. The Government are pressing forward with ways to support our media to Jo Stevens (Cardiff Central) (Lab): Mr Speaker: adapt to the digital age, and that is in addition to what “Attacks on media freedom are attacks on human rights…Too I have been saying about the way the Government are often, it is governments who are the source of threats to media ensuring that lobby briefings are available. freedom. Governments—which are responsible for protecting human rights—instead are the ones to violate them.” Joanna Cherry (Edinburgh South West) (SNP): I Those are not my words, but words taken directly from congratulate the Minister on the Orwellian double-speak the global pledge on media freedom that was signed last of her opening remarks. I am sure she will go far in this July by the then Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member Government. for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt). The Minister Those of us who support independent press regulation clearly does not understand what media freedom means; have, over the years, received a number of lectures on does she understand what hypocrisy means? press freedom from those on the Government Benches, Chloe Smith: I do not think the hon. Lady understands so it ill behoves the Minister to dodge our reasonable that her party has been the worst of all on this point. questions today. She has mentioned how important the Her party is the one that has offered to open up journalists’ Union is to her. I spoke to members of the Scottish tax returns and has had to provide bodyguards to lobby about this issue this morning and it is well established journalists. All that is because the leader of her party is that the Scottish media outlets were excluded from the of the kind of bent that looks down a camera and says, briefing yesterday. Will the Minister clarify a very simple “Change is coming.” Well, the British people ensured question—was that an oversight or was it deliberate? that he was the one who was changed. The hon. Lady should heed that. Chloe Smith: I have already explained that this particular briefing was arranged to provide further specialist briefing. Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Will It was not in itself a matter for the kind of questioning the Minister confirm two things for the House—first, that the hon. and learned Lady is putting about around that the Government will of course look at making sure whether it should be for Scotland or the United Kingdom. that briefings are done in a sensible way, with the That question is rightly subject to a far greater debate agreement of all members of the lobby over the longer on which, I gently point out, she is on the wrong side. term; and secondly, that this Government and, indeed, The point is that the British people have asked for a this House should always be committed to there being clear resolution of our relationship with the European no political interference in our media, because that is a Union. We got Brexit done last weekend and we now foundation of our democracy? move on to the next stage of the negotiation. We all want the lobby to be able to benefit from a good Chloe Smith: My hon. Friend is right on that point. understanding of the negotiating objectives of the UK As I have said, the Government are upholders of freedom Government. The UK Government speak for all parts and accessibility for Government briefings. We take it of the UK in that, so such matters are not really the as a matter of pride that we are an extremely open subject of the kind of questioning the hon. and learned Government, ensuring that there are briefings available Lady is asking after. across a range of channels. As I have already said, what has been happening recently, and the subject of today’s Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): Given that the question, is in fact the perfectly normal operation of the Labour party called for the resignation of BBC journalists lobby: twice daily briefings and, in addition to that, who had the courage to report on antisemitism, does the offer of further specialist briefings. There is clearly the Minister agree that it is the Conservative party that the ability to hold the Government to account, and that stands up for a healthy, vibrant and independent press? is how we intend to continue to work. Chloe Smith: I welcome my hon. Friend’s contribution. Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab): Does the He is absolutely right that what we are talking about Minister agree that, unlike what happened in the US, it here today is how the Government are, ought to be and was brilliant to see our journalists showing solidarity will be, committed to being open in their dealings with with those journalists who were barred from the briefing the press and to the principles of media freedom. That and staging a joint walk-out? On another note, does the is something that we stick by firmly as a matter of Minister think that the Prime Minister and his advisers principle and of practice. are merely trying to copy President Trump’s tactics and trying to stifle our free press? Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): I am really puzzled by what the Minister says, because lobby journalists Chloe Smith: No, I do not. walked out in solidarity with each other, and they said 195 Lobby and Media Briefings: 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lobby and Media Briefings: 196 Journalists’ Access Journalists’ Access [Thangam Debbonaire] this as the Budget and other such vehicles come up—to look at ways to support the vibrancy of our press and that there was no precedent for this, so either they are media across the country. I referenced the Cairncross wrong, or she is wrong. I want to know why she is saying, review earlier. These things, together with fiscal measures, as she seems to be, that the lobby journalists are wrong, are important in that debate. that the National Union of Journalists is wrong, that everybody else is wrong and that this Government are Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I confess that there is not trying to hide from scrutiny, which is how it appears. one journalist I would quite like to keep out of Downing Street, but he is the Prime Minister and, unfortunately, Chloe Smith: I cannot account for the hon. Lady’s he won the general election. understanding, but what I can say is that this Government are making themselves available across a range of briefings There is a serious issue here: every political generation and across a range of channels—I have already covered in government want to try to avoid scrutiny if possible, that point—including social media, broadcast channels and it is the job of this House to try to ensure that they and innovations such as the people’s Prime Minister’s do not get away with it. So, all the whataboutery in the questions, which is a very good thing. What I can add is world will not stop us complaining when we see a clear that the standard practice of the lobby is that all members pattern of the Prime Minister running his leadership with a press pass are able to attend and ask all questions campaign, running his general election campaign and that they would wish to ask. That is how the lobby now running the Government in a way that is trying to functions, and we absolutely uphold that. That is happening avoid scrutiny. I am sure that, in private, the Minister twice daily and, in addition to that, we are offering would agree. further specialist briefings, which is what we are talking about here today. Chloe Smith: This is simply barking up the wrong tree again. The Government are ensuring that they are open James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con): I declare an for scrutiny. The Foreign Secretary stood here yesterday interest as a former special adviser, most recently in and took scores of questions on the very same subject No. 10. I endorse the comments that my hon. Friend matter. He was again on television shows on Sunday. has made: there is nothing unusual in providing specialist The Chief Secretary to the Treasury was on a number of briefings. Indeed, I was there when we provided one on programmes yesterday. The Chancellor of the Duchy of the Prime Minister’s excellent Brexit deal, which has Lancaster was out this morning; the Home Secretary happily now passed through this House. Is it not important was out this morning. The Prime Minister himself took that we keep perspective? In my experience,lobby journalists many questions on the subject matter in hand yesterday. are well able to look after themselves. Nobody is hiding from scrutiny. Chloe Smith: I welcome that glimpse of experience. It David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) is important to say again that what we are discussing here (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that this very much today are the normal operations of the lobby. We are has the flavour of a storm in a Westminster bubble? making sure that that is supplemented by these additional Will she outline what further steps she might be taking briefings. to improve the ability of our regional and local newspapers to hold all of us as politicians to account, outside of Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP): that bubble? These are the words of the Prime Minister in 2017 when he was Foreign Secretary: Chloe Smith: This is an important point. As we have “Where governments fear freedom of expression they often try already discussed, there are ways to do that, and this to shut down media and civil society, or clip their wings.” Government are committed to them. We have mentioned He also said: some points of policy, and we have looked at the “A free media is vital to creating a vibrant, informed and business rates point raised by my hon. Friend the Member engaged population and helps to support a safer, more prosperous for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison). To that, I and progressive world.” add the way that this Government are making sure that Why does he now think that freedom of the press is they are available on social media, which, by its very important everywhere except Downing Street? nature, does not require to be inside any Westminster bubble. That is a way for people rightly to be able to Chloe Smith: Because the hon. Lady is wrongly describing hold this Government to account. It is that kind of the situation. The Prime Minister stands by those words, principle that we hold very highly, and what I have been as do I. able to outline today are all the ways in which we are Dehenna Davison (Bishop Auckland) (Con): While doing that. the Labour party, true to form these days it seems, is obsessing about the London bubble, will my hon. Friend Brendan O’Hara (Argyll and Bute) (SNP): Clearly, confirm that the Treasury is looking at how best it can the Minister cannot defend what has happened and support the media across the country? What impact therefore she is providing a master class in whataboutery. does she believe that the recently announced business Yesterday, Downing Street announced that there was a rates relief for local newspaper offices will have, particularly new show in town and that it was doing it simply on great Bishop Auckland organisations, such as the because it can. It was deliberately sinister and knowingly Teesdale Mercury and The Northern Echo? provocative. I am sure that those involved are celebrating the fact that they have an urgent question out of it. Chloe Smith: My hon. Friend makes a helpful wider What happened yesterday was out of President Trump’s point, which is how we, as a Government, can use playbook for bullies, and I am sure that those involved policy and indeed scrutinise it here in this place—I say are feeling pretty smug about it. Did the Minister and 197 Lobby and Media Briefings: 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lobby and Media Briefings: 198 Journalists’ Access Journalists’ Access her colleagues know that this was the type of Government Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): The Scotsman they were voting for when they so enthusiastically backed journalist Paris Gourtsoyannis tweeted that Downing Boris? Street did not tell Scottish or regional journalists about the briefing. Can the Minister tell me why she does not Chloe Smith: The type of Government we are talking value Scottish media? Does she agree that is difficult to about is the type that has just won a resounding majority report outside the Westminster bubble if the Government at a general election and has the support of the people. I do not invite Scottish journalists? think that is a pretty good answer to his question. Chloe Smith: I have already answered that point a few Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/ times. Again, the answer is that, under the lobby Co-op): This does smack of either a deliberate decision arrangements, any member of the lobby with a press to make sure that the mainstream press is being discussed pass is more than welcome to put any question to the in this way in this House today, or it was just an Government. That goes for journalists from any corner almighty mistake. Will the Minister, who is a reasonable of our United Kingdom. We on the Government Benches woman, not use this opportunity to say sorry and that it are a Unionist party, and we think that that it should be will not happen again? more than possible to run that kind of practice across the nations of our wonderful country. We welcome Chloe Smith: The hon. Lady takes us on to very, very close co-operation between the people and the press of sober ground, and rightly so. She has great experience Scotland and every other part of our United Kingdom, as a scrutiniser in this House, but the fact is that that is which I hope will stay united. Again, all of that is the wrong characterisation of what has happened. I supplemented by what we are offering as technical have set out what the facts of the matter are: what we briefings, which I hope can be read as spreading across are dealing with is standard lobby procedures supplemented the Union in that way. by an additional specialist briefing. There is nothing more sinister than that, and I think that even she, who is Charlotte Nichols (Warrington North) (Lab): I was also a very reasonable Member of this Chamber, is just interested to hear the Minister refer to the people’s going a little too far. PMQs on Facebook and engagement on social media as some sort of alternative to proper scrutiny of the Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD): It is quite extraordinary Government’s decisions by the press lobby. The Prime that the Government say that there is effectively nothing Minister cannot even answer what shampoo he uses in to see here, when the News Media Association and the the people’sPMQs on Facebook. Whyis he running scared? National Union of Journalists have both said that this potentially represents a threat to the freedom of the press, Chloe Smith: I use Dove shampoo. and both have asked for the Government to consult them on the changes. Once again, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and the Prime Minister are missing Dave Doogan (Angus) (SNP): The Minister has the in action in this House, but I wonder whether the Minister unenviable task of coming to the House to answer this could tell us what action she thinks they would have urgent question, and implying that something that resulted taken, as former journalists, if they had found themselves in journalists walking out en masse is perfectly ordinary excluded from a No. 10 lobby briefing. and nothing to be concerned about. One of her critical defences is, “Well, everybody else did it before we did Chloe Smith: I think the hon. Lady knows—or she it, but there’s nothing wrong with it anyway”, which is should know, or she will come to know—that, as a concerning in and of itself. As a former civil servant, Minister at the Dispatch Box, I speak for myself and I will the Minister tell the House emphatically whether the do not need to speak for two more senior colleagues. I civil service code was left intact after yesterday’s decision speak for myself as part of the Government—as part of —yes or no? collective responsibility. Therefore, all Ministers are part of the same message, and that message is absolutely Chloe Smith: I am a little confused by the hon. clear here today.It is that we run routine lobby procedures Gentleman’s question. I do not know whether he thinks that are more than adequate for ensuring that, if they I am a former civil servant, but I am happy to make it wish to, everybody with a press pass can ask any question clear that I am not. Forgive me, I do not know his of the Prime Minister’s official spokesperson. That is biography—[Interruption.] He is a former civil servant; how that operates, and we are supplementing that with I see. In that case, I am delighted to hear from him given the additional briefings, which I have now mentioned his experience. The only thing I can say is what I have many times. [Interruption.] I am sorry, Madam Deputy already said—that the person who was providing the Speaker, if this is coming across as boring to some briefing was a political appointee, David Frost, and that opposition Members, but it is the fact. it is not uncommon for senior civil servants to brief the media on a range of technical issues. The rest of his Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): The Prime Minister’s point goes to questions about codes that are not relevant head of communications, who is a political appointee, because of my clarification as to Mr Frost’s status. tried to fix access to a briefing by David Frost, who is a civil service appointee. That is such a breach of protocol Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance): From the that the entire press lobby refused to attend that little Minister’s previous role in the Northern Ireland Office, soiree. Can the Minister confirm that Sir Mark Sedwill, she will be aware that a major public inquiry will report the Cabinet Secretary, will be investigating this matter? shortly, covering—among other things—the role, conduct and behaviour of special advisers. In terms of Whitehall, Chloe Smith: I am afraid the hon. Gentleman has his what can the Minister say to reassure the House that facts wrong. Mr David Frost is a political appointee. special advisers cannot give directions to civil servants, 199 Lobby and Media Briefings: 4 FEBRUARY 2020 200 Journalists’ Access [Stephen Farry] Paterson Inquiry and that there is a culture in which civil servants can 1.46 pm safely resist inappropriate instructions that they are The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health given by special advisers? and Social Care (Ms Nadine Dorries): This morning the independent inquiry into the issues raised by the disgraced Chloe Smith: I am grateful for that question. As the surgeon, Ian Paterson, published its report. The inquiry hon. Member notes, there is much road ahead in Northern was tasked with reviewing the circumstances surrounding Ireland in the restoration of the institutions and the the jailed surgeon’s malpractice that affected so many work that goes alongside that. All the codes that buttress patients in the most appalling way. As the report states, our public work—whether for the civil service or special between 1997 and 2011, Paterson saw 6,617 patients, of advisers—remain as they were and will be upheld. whom 4,077 underwent a surgical procedure in the independent sector. Between 1998 and 2011, Paterson saw Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP): May I advise the 4,424 patients at the Heart of England NHS Foundation Minister that if she is trying to come across as representing Trust, of whom 1,207 underwent mastectomy. a Government who are in favour of freedom of expression and freedom of the press, it is not a particularly good The report contains a shocking and sobering analysis look for each question to be preceded by somebody of the circumstances surrounding Ian Paterson’s from the Whips Office scurrying along the green Benches, malpractice. It sets out the failures in the NHS, the desperately handing out crib sheets to tell Government independent sector, and the regulatory and indemnity Back Benchers what questions to ask and not to ask? systems. As a result of these failures, patients suffered unnecessary harm. Their testimony in the report makes This is the Government who responded to critical harrowing and appalling reading. As such, it is with deep coverage on Channel 4 by suggesting that Channel 4 regret that we acknowledge the failure of the entire should be closed down, and who responded to critical healthcare system to protect patients from Ian Paterson’s coverage from the BBC by suggesting scrapping the malpractice and to remedy the harms. licence fee—effectively closing down the BBC—so the media have good cause to be concerned. As far as I can Nothing I can say today can lessen the horrendous tell, the Minister’s excuses are twofold. The first is that suffering that patients and their families experienced it was a specialist briefing; so, presumably the journalists and continue to go through. I can only start to imagine who were thrown out were not clever enough or specialist the sense of violation and betrayal of patients who put enough to understand it. The second is that somehow their trust in Ian Paterson when they were at their most only certain newspaper readers would be interested in vulnerable. That the inquiry reports today—World Cancer what was to be reported. Who decides what the press Day—makes this all the more poignant. I apologise on are interested in reporting? Surely freedom of the press behalf of the Government and the NHS for what means that the editor decides what the readership are happened, not least that Ian Paterson was able to practise interested in, not the Prime Minister. unchecked for so long. I pay tribute to the bravery of all the former patients who came forward to tell their Chloe Smith: And that is whywe have lobby arrangements stories to the inquiry, and whose anonymised accounts whereby every editor—any journalist—with a press pass have been recorded in the report. The report will make is more than able to ask any question they like of the for difficult reading, as it highlights the human cost of Government. our failure to detect and put a stop to Ian Paterson’s malpractice. Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP): The briefing There was a catalogue of failings that resulted in that took place was on our future relationship with the harm to thousands of patients, causing devastation to European Union. My constituency is in Aberdeen, which countless lives. Some of these patients were let down is projected to be the hardest-hit city in the entire UK as several times, not least by the providers and the regulatory a result of Brexit, yet the Westminster correspondent system that should have protected them, and by the for the Aberdeen’s local Press and Journal was not failure of the medical indemnity system to provide any invited. Indeed, no Scottish lobbyists were invited to kind of redress at the first time of asking. From the that briefing. Does the contempt that this Government outset, Bishop Graham wanted patients and their families show to Scotland now extend to our press corps too? to be central to the inquiry’s work and to be heard. It was right, therefore, that patients and their families saw Chloe Smith: No, it does not, because we are proudly the report first, early this morning, shortly before it was serving the people of Scotland in ensuring our future presented to Parliament. prosperity and opportunity through the negotiations on Two aspects of the report are particularly striking to our future relationship that we are conducting with the me: that the various regulatory bodies failed in their European Union. I have every hope that the outcome main tasks; and the absence of curiosity by those in will be as good for the hon. Member’s constituents as it positions of authority in the healthcare providers in the is for my constituents and constituents represented across face of concerns voiced by other healthcare professionals. the Chamber. It is right and proper that it is the United The report presents a tangled set of processes. Kingdom Government who do this on behalf of the Accountability was not exercised when it should have whole country, and can be held fully to account here in been. Some of the problems arose from not following the Chamber and through the very many channels that throughonestablishedprocedures,asopposedtoinsufficient I have spoken about throughout this urgent question. procedures being in place. We must take full responsibility for what happened in the past if we are to provide reassurance to patients about their protection in the future. I am therefore very 201 Paterson Inquiry 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Paterson Inquiry 202 grateful that the suite of recommendations, based on The findings from the inquiry were published at the patient journey, presents a route map for Government. 12 noon today, so the House will want time to fully The recommendations are extremely sensible and we digest and reflect on the recommendations. However, I will study them in detail. I can promise the House a full think we all agree that while we cannot undo the awful response in a few months’ time. That response will need harm that Paterson’s criminal action has caused to so to consider the answer to some very important questions many, lessons must be learned and changes made so that cut right across the healthcare sector. Unequivocally, that something so heinous does not happen again. This regardless of where patients are treated and regardless report must not remain on a shelf to be forgotten, of how their care is funded, all patients should be because it is clear that this was not just the action of one confident that the care they receive is safe, that it meets rogue lone surgeon; systemic organisational failures were the highest standards with appropriate protections, and at fault as well. that they are supported by clinicians to make informed Fundamentally,it is time that we addressed the question decisions about the most appropriate course of care. of safety in private healthcare providers and the way in I am very aware that this is not the first time that which clinicians are able to operate in private providers regulatory failure has been highlighted in an inquiry report. with little oversight. Paterson worked under the so-called We have done much to make the NHS a safer system in practising privileges model, effectively as a self-employed recent years: revalidation, a reformed Care Quality contractor whereby people get a fee on top of their Commission, and work by the Independent Healthcare NHS salary for each funded NHS operation carried out Providers Network to establish the medical practitioners in the private sector. Moreover, private hospitals would assurance framework to oversee medical practitioners often, and still often, incentivise referrals from consultants in the independent acute sector. In the case of Ian by giving them, for example, shares in those private Paterson, the system did not work for patients. Recent hospitals. This model creates financial incentives to events at Spire Healthcare show that there are still distort clinical decision making and can lead to over- serious problems to address. Patient safety is a continual treatment, as we saw in the Paterson case. Indeed, as the process of vigilance and improvement. The inquiry does Minister said, earlier this month something similar not jump to a demand for the NHS and the independent happened at Spire Healthcare when it was forced to recall sector to invent multiple new processes; it says that they hundreds of patients amid concerns over operations must get the basics right, implement existing processes, carried out by another surgeon. and ensure that all professional people behave better and The inquiry makes a number of recommendations take responsibility. and it is right that we reflect on them, but what is clear is Last summer, NHS Improvement and I published a that we need full transparency and accountability. I new patient safety strategy, led by the national patient hope the Government mandate health bodies to quickly safety director, Dr Aidan Fowler. It focused on better implement many of these recommendations. The fight culture, systems and regulation—very sensible and familiar that patients had to go through for compensation is, words, yet all things that this inquiry says were not quite frankly, shameful. Surely it is time that private delivered. What we need now is action across the NHS hospitals employed surgeons directly and required them and its regulatory bodies, and the same determination to be fully liable for their actions. In that way, we would to change in the independent sector. resolve the liability loophole. We are absolutely committed to ensuring that lessons About a third of all private hospital income now are learned and acted on from the findings of this comes from the NHS for hip replacements, hernia shocking inquiry, in the interests of enhancing patient procedures, cataract procedures and so on. Yet safety protection and safety both in the NHS and the independent standards in the private sector leave much to be desired. sector. For today, I apologise again on behalf of the Unlike in an NHS hospital where there are multi- Government and the NHS, and send my heartfelt sympathy disciplinary teams on standby to deal with potential to the patients and their families for the suffering they complications post-op, in the private sector,post-operative have endured. care for patients is often left in the hands of a single 1.53 pm junior doctor—a resident medical officer often working many hours, 24/7. In private hospitals there are few Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op): I critical care facilities available if something goes wrong. thank the Minister for advance sight of her statement. Indeed, many patients are often referred back to an I welcome her apology on behalf of the Government NHS hospital when complications occur. In 2018, the and the national health service. I agree that the issues previous Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for raised in this report are, as she says, shocking, serious South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), wrote to the private and harrowing. Our thoughts are naturally with all the hospital sector telling it to get its house in order on patient innocent victims of Ian Paterson. As the Minister rightly safety. acknowledged, today is indeed World Cancer Day. We all know that a cancer diagnosis is frightening. When Patient safety must always be a priority.If this demands we hand ourselves, or a loved one, over to the care of a legislation to change the regulation of private hospitals, medical professional, we are literally trusting them with I hope the Minister can bring such legislation forward. our lives. For that trust to be callously betrayed for We would work with her constructively to ensure that it financial gain is unforgivable, and indeed, as it has been finds its way on to the statute book. It is time to take found, criminal. I associate myself with the Minister’s these issues in the private sector seriously, and we will remarks in paying tribute to all the patients—all the be happy to work with the Government on that front. victims—for their bravery in speaking out. I thank all those who have represented them, including the various Ms Dorries: The hon. Gentleman raises many issues legal firms such as Thompsons, and thank Bishop Graham that we can agree on. I am not here to defend the private for putting together this report. sector, but I would like to reiterate that women were 203 Paterson Inquiry 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Paterson Inquiry 204

[Ms Dorries] at the recommendations and improve our service to patients in both the NHS and the private sector as a affected both in the national health service and in the result. private sector. It does not take into consideration the suffering of those women in the NHS if we just focus on Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): Having one particular area. been a breast cancer surgeon for 33 years, I find this The CQC has had a duty with regard to the private case heartbreaking, and I can only apologise on behalf sector since 2015. These cases took place between 1997 of the profession. The hon. Member for Leicester South and 2011. In 2012, the CQC introduced the revalidation (Jonathan Ashworth) highlighted that the way in which system for doctors, with responsible officers attached to women were treated after the event and the fact that each organisation and an appraisal process that consultants they had to fight for help and compensation added and doctors go through to assess their performance. insult to injury. That happened in 2012 and was introduced by the General As the Minister said, this was not a failure of processes Medical Council. not existing; it was a failure of processes that were not In 2014, we instructed the CQC to appraise the private enforced. This scandal went on for 14 years, which sector in the same way and hold the private sector to the highlights a failure to listen to people who raised concerns same standards as the NHS. As I said, I am not here to early on and the fact that there was a power differential defend the private sector, but in the CQC examination it between Paterson and people who were raising concerns. came out as good, and I believe that Spire scored 85%. It should have been striking that his rate of surgery was The hon. Gentleman is right—this is about patient so much higher among his private patients than his safety and all providers raising their game. As I said, NHS patients. His practice was not being looked at healthcare providers and healthcare professionals have within NHS quality audits, which might have shown a responsibility to speak out. The time that it took from that up. What will the Government do to ensure that all complaints being made about Paterson to action being units are taking part in national audits, which faded taken was too long. We need people in the NHS and the away over the last decade, and in Getting it Right First private sector to speak up, to listen and to act more Time, so that units cannot just opt out? Will that be quickly. That is one issue we want to take forward. I will rolled out to the independent sector, to ensure that units take all his points on board. There is much we agree on. take part in national audits? As I said, I am not here to defend the private sector, but Breast cancer is a multidisciplinary team specialty, women in the NHS suffered as well. but we have to do a 360° appraisal only every five years. To me, that is the most telling and most important part Julian Knight (Solihull) (Con): I thank the Minister of appraisal, and the Government should look at that and shadow Minister for the tone and content of their part of appraisal being made more frequent and, again, comments. being extended to private hospitals. Scores of women and their families in Solihull have The Health Service Safety Investigations Body is been dramatically affected by Paterson, who chose—for currently envisaged as working only in NHS hospitals want of a better word—to experiment on his patients, and for NHS patients treated in independent hospitals. seemingly for personal profit, ruining and shortening Surely the Government recognise that the Bill legislating lives. They want to know that this can never happen for that will need to be amended, to ensure that the again, with proper measures taken and recommendations HSSIB can investigate across the piece. followed. Does the Minister have confidence in the new Once again, we come back to whistleblowers who whistleblowing procedure at Spire Healthcare? Is she, have raised concerns, have not been listened to and have like me, disquieted to hear that the same hospital is been suffering detriment, and an opportunity to stop currently reviewing 217 cases regarding another doctor, Paterson many years earlier has been missed. What Habib Rahman, who is under suspension? reforms are the Government planning genuinely to support whistleblowers? I am presenting a private Member’s Bill Ms Dorries: My hon. Friend is right; Rahman has tomorrow, because we need a root-and-branch reform been suspended. He is not practising at the Spire group. of how whistleblowers are treated. However, he is still in a non-patient facing role at the trust, and we are querying that. Ms Dorries: The hon. Lady raises a wide range of My hon. Friend is right to say that this has been issues, which I will try to go through. First, I reassure harrowing, and many women were affected. I do not her that, at the time Paterson was practising, the CQC think I can give him a guarantee that this would never was not investigating or assessing the private sector; happen again, because for that to happen we would that was introduced in 2015. Whistleblowing was in an have to have somebody reviewing every single appointment, entirely different place from where it is now. We now operation and case that any doctor undertook. We have have 500 lanyard-wearing national guardians across the a process in place now that was not in place then. The NHS, and we encourage people to raise their concerns CQC was not inspecting the private sector then, and it with those national guardians, the guardians to listen was not inspecting the NHS robustly enough. That has and the trust to act quickly on the concerns raised. I now changed. We also have the revalidation system, think it is fair to say, that since 2012, when the CQC brought in by the General Medical Council in 2012 introduced revalidation, a number of regulatory processes after Paterson. It is really important to point out that have been put in place. There was shockingly little at the Paterson is in jail and has been for some time. This time that Paterson was practising. The system is now inquiry came after Paterson had gone to jail, and the much more robust—and yet, I completely take her point; purpose of the inquiry is learning, so that we can look much more still needs to be done. 205 Paterson Inquiry 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Paterson Inquiry 206

We are learning the lessons from Getting it Right guardians scheme. The national guardians are there for First Time. In fact, that is a subject of discussion within whistleblowers to go to. We want—we absolutely want— the Department. We are looking at how the lessons have people to report when they think somebody is acting been applied and what we can learn. inappropriately, or a surgeon or doctor is not practising The hon. Lady is right about revalidation and 365° to the standards they should be. We want to know that appraisal every five years. As she will know, the CQC is as soon as possible. There will be no investigations of an independent body. It introduced revalidation and whistleblowers’ fitness to practise; that will apply to the appraisal. Our job is now to ask the CQC to make that people they are reporting. I do not think the national system more robust and look at how to improve it, guardians scheme has had enough press or that people because that is an important part of the equation, are aware enough of it. It is about speaking up, listening ensuring that something like this does not happen again. and then the trust acting on the information it has. One I say here and now at the Dispatch Box that I would like of the outcomes of this report will be that we can the CQC, as a matter of urgency, to look at how it can reassure both healthcare professionals and the public make that system more robust and effective, so that we that we want them to speak up. We actually want them can quickly identify doctors—not those like the hon. to be a whistleblower because only by doing that can we Lady—who are not up to standard, who are outliers guarantee patient safety. and who should not be practising. Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) We will look at the hon. Lady’s point about the (Lab): I think all of us are shocked to hear that patients HSSIB. I do not think that there is a role for the HSSIB have been let down yet again over these events. I was in the private sector. The private sector is a matter of surprised that the Minister did not refer in her opening personal choice. It is our job to ensure that healthcare comments to the Health Service Safety Investigations reaches the same standard across the board, whether it Bill. I want to back up what the hon. Member for Central is in the private sector or the NHS. The CQC does that, Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), who speaks for the SNP, said. and that is how we hold the private sector to account. Along with her, I was involved in the draft scrutiny of Then it is down to patients to make the choice about the Bill in the previous Parliament, and it is very clear where they wish to be treated; that is their independent now that the Bill needs to be extended to include the choice. That is a matter of consent, which is something private or independent sector. I very much hope that the else we need to look at—how do conversations about Minister will be able to give us good news about when consent take place? Does the patient have the capacity the Bill will be brought before the House. to take in the information being given to them? Are they making an informed choice? Do they have enough Ms Dorries: I hope the Bill will be brought before information about the surgeon they are seeing to make the House in the autumn. As I have said, we got the the right choice? Those are the issues we need to focus on. report only this morning, and we need to look at the recommendations. I am sure her suggestion will be one Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth and Southam) (Con): If of the recommendations that we will look at in detail. I patients are to be kept safe, several things need to be got the report myself only a couple of hours ago, so we true. First, as the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire need to study the recommendations. We will report back (Dr Whitford) said, medical professionals who have to the House in three to four months’ time about the concerns about the practice of other medical professionals report itself. need to have their concerns properly listened to. Is it not therefore a matter of serious concern that four of the Saqib Bhatti (Meriden) (Con): Like my hon. Friend six whistleblowers in this case—one of whom I have the the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight), my constituency privilege to represent in this place—found themselves neighbour, I too have many constituents who suffered at subject to fitness-to-practise reviews after reporting their the hands of Ian Paterson. On Saturday, I met survivors concerns? of this awful ordeal, and there are no easy words. I Secondly, is it not right that medical organisations— thank the Minister and the shadow Secretary of State public or private—need to act on those concerns? It is for their sobering words. Will the Minister join me in profoundly troubling that concerns were reported to the commending the survivors for their bravery, and does she Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust in 2003, but agree that there have been serious failings on the part of it did not suspend Paterson until 2011. the Spire hospital? What assurances can we give the survivors that we will take heed of this report, and what Thirdly, is it not important that regulators do what more should we do to ensure that this is never allowed they need to do? It is also profoundly troubling that to happen again? concerns about Paterson’s malpractice were reported to the GMC in 2007, and his suspension by the GMC Ms Dorries: I thank my hon. Friend, and if I did not came only in 2012. do so in my opening statement I would like to thank the patients, the survivors and the groups that have helped Ms Dorries: I would like to make an apology. I those survivors. I also thank Bishop Graham James, mentioned the CQC in response to the hon. Member who has provided us with such a thorough and detailed for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford)—the acronyms!—but report, with seriously robust and practical recommendations it was the GMC. to take forward. Again, I can only give my assurance that My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right. we will read this report and study it carefully. If there is I reiterate that Paterson is in jail, and that the processes anything we can do as a result of the recommendations now in the regulatory framework did not exist at the that will enhance and guarantee patient safety, we will, time Paterson was practising. The culture towards because patient safety is a paramount concern for us in whistleblowers is very different now from what it was the Department of Health and Social Care. It is absolutely then, as demonstrated by the roll-out of the national atthetopof ouragenda,andwewillbetakingthisforward. 207 Paterson Inquiry 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Paterson Inquiry 208

Wendy Chamberlain (North East Fife) (LD): In the them, identify them and act immediately. Sometimes Minister’s statement, she referred to two striking aspects things are left for another time or place, but when of the report: the failures of a number of regulatory people see somebody act inappropriately or in a way bodies, and the absence of general interest in the concerns they should not, we want to know that they speak out raised by the very people in a position to take action. about it immediately. Sadly, the inquiry suggests that such a case could occur I will say it again: we want people to speak up, we again. Given that the Government have promised to want trusts and the private sector to listen, and then we provide a full response to the inquiry in three to four want to act. It is the case that we can change this culture months’ time—I believe that is what she said—how will and let whistleblowers know that we will protect them. the Government work with the devolved Administrations We also have a line at the Department for people to ring to ensure that all health services can take up the same in on, because we want to hear from them.1 There is safeguards? only one way we can guarantee patient safety, and that is to know where inappropriate practice is taking place Ms Dorries: I am sure we will work with the devolved so that we can stop it. We absolutely open our door Administrations in the normal way we do with all to whistle- blowers, and we want to hear what they have healthcare policy. Again, I give my assurances that we to say. will be taking the recommendations and studying them seriously. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): Can the Minister explain under what circumstances this criminal Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): Ultimately, this behaviour was finally exposed? Has anybody from the is all about behaviour—not just the criminal behaviour regulatory side been sacked as a result of their abject of Ian Paterson, but the behaviour of the professionals failure to discover it earlier? and the wider health establishment that came into contact with him. I associate myself with the comments of my Ms Dorries: There was actually quite a long process. right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Kenilworth As I say, Paterson practised between 1997 and 2011, and Southam (Jeremy Wright) about the behaviour and there was quite a long process of reporting and of towardsthewhistleblowers.Frankly,theyfacedintimidation, concerns being raised about his behaviour and his practice. and we saw exactly the same thing at Gosport when Eventually, somebody listened; I believe that it was a whistleblowers reported to the Nursing & Midwifery new chief executive at the Spire hospital trust at the Council. I would like to put it on record that it is high time.2 Somebody spoke out to him, he looked at the time this Government challenged the self-regulatory history of what had happened and he decided to take aspects of both the NMC and the GMC, if we are really action. That is not good enough, however, because to consider and improve patient safety. reports had been made on a number of occasions previously. In fact, there were two reports. One, by a Ms Dorries: I thank my predecessor in my post for consultant, looked at 100 of his cases in 2011, but no her comments. She did an amazing job, and I am sure action was taken. Another report, by another NHS she will have been involved in this at the time. She is consultant, downplayed and focused on the wrong elements absolutely right: whistleblowers, we want you! We want of Paterson’s care, and it took somebody to speak to a them to speak up and to speak out; we want people to new chief executive for action to be taken. The process listen; and we want to act. However, she is also right was all wrong, but that is how it was then, and it is very different now. that there is still a culture among staff within the NHS and the independent sector of reluctance to speak out, As I have said, the GMC has introduced revalidation to listen and to act, and we need to change that culture. and appraisal. We have been speaking to it, and we The culture now has to be that we want whistleblowers want it to make that process more robust so that we can to speak out, and we want trusts to listen and to take assess doctors in a more appropriate and frequent way. their concerns seriously, because we want to act. The CQC is holding the private sector to account, as well as the NHS. Those of us who have been here for Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): What has happened is more than a few years know that a few years ago the horrific, and my heart goes out to all the people who CQC was not the organisation that it is today, and it is have been affected, but surely this could not have happened now much more robust and effective. We therefore hope without the collusion of others. It is not just a question that we can pick up cases such as this as they happen. of turning a blind eye; there must have been others However, the only way to crack patient safety in this involved. What has been done to investigate those country is if somebody who is practising alongside a individuals? Is the Minister clear that whistleblowers surgeon, doctor or nurse speaks out, and for those to have a sufficient pathway to independent investigators whom they speak to listen, so that we can act. outside an organisation? Quite often, it is very difficult within an organisation and it takes someone very brave Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab): I thank to go to a senior manager and whistleblow. Is she the Minister for her remarks. I welcome her mention of confident that whistleblowers have access to independent culture and cultural change, but I wish to push her a ears to bring their concerns to light? little further. She spoke about cultural change in relation to whistleblowers, but that is after something has gone Ms Dorries: The national guardians scheme involves wrong. I would like junior clinicians to feel able to 500 healthcare professionals, who are identified by their challenge senior clinicians before something has gone lanyards alone to show that they are people to whom wrong. Is anything happening to shift the culture, so whistleblowers can speak both independently and in that a culture of learning is encouraged among senior complete confidence. I think that is important because clinicians, and so that they welcome challenges and those people are in the NHS—the private sector has questioning from junior clinicians, in order to prevent rolled out its own similar system—and people can see something such as this from happening? 1.[Official Report, 12 February 2020, Vol. 671, c. 10MC.] 2.[Official Report, 12 February 2020, Vol. 671, c. 10MC.] 209 Paterson Inquiry 4 FEBRUARY 2020 210

Ms Dorries: I am totally with the hon. Lady, and as a Points of Order nurse myself, I know that that happens with senior nurses, not only senior doctors, because there is the 2.24 pm same culture of fear, and of not wanting to challenge a superior who is more experienced in what they are Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): On a point of doing. Such a change cannot happen overnight. It will order,Madam Deputy Speaker. Today the Prime Minister take time, but I think it is already happening as a result is holding an important strategy meeting about COP26—a of increased confidence. We have recently had a few meeting that many think should have been held before inquiries, and I think patients now have more confidence the former President of the COP was appointed, never to speak out. Under the national guardians scheme, mind sacked. Have you received any indication from the whistleblowers have more confidence to speak out. I think Government that a statement will be made in the House that cultural change is happening, and last week I visited about perhaps the most important issue facing our a hospital where I saw that in process. country over the next 12 months, which is the climate Our job is to ensure that we introduce whatever needs conference in Glasgow in December? We want to be to be put in place. No one is God. When I trained as a absolutely bipartisan and ensure that that conference is nurse, doctors were like God, but that is not true; that is a success, but we need it to be discussed and debated in not the case. This has been a long road, and we need to this place. The Government must be open with us about challenge that culture even further. Those who have the strategy that they want to adopt, so that we can been practising for some time are esteemed, and we back them and ensure that we achieve the real objectives value their experience. We value those people, but we of the COP. must also break the culture that means they are not to be challenged. Making the revalidation and appraisal Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I system more robust is one way to do that. thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of his point of order. I am sure that those on the Treasury Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): I thank the Minister for Bench will have heard his kind offer and his request for her heartfelt apology for what has happened, and for a statement to be made, but I have received no notification her commitment to patient safety. Does she agree that about a statement. there are clear commonalities between this case and other tragedies, such as those at Morecambe Bay and Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): On a point of Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust? As the order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wish to raise a point hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) said, of order about the Minister’s response to my urgent there is an imbalance of power between male consultants, question on universal credit earlier today,because I believe and in this case female patients, who often just accept he may have inadvertently misled the House. I understand what they are told by a more powerful figure. that he was defending the Secretary of State from the beleaguered position and shambles that the Department Ms Dorries: This day is about the victims of Paterson found itself in, which led to the need for the urgent and the women he treated, and I do not want to detract question, and I have informed the Chair and the Minister from that by going down another road and talking in question of my intention to raise this point of order. about another inquiry. My hon. Friend is right: often The Minister first said that he had informed the House women are those most affected by these issues, which is about this issue “yesterday”, and went on to say that he why I spoke about the importance of consent. We as a had written to the Chair of a yet-to-be-appointed Select Department must consider how such consent is gained, Committee in order to do so. Do you believe, Madam and I think the Cumberlege report, which we are expecting Deputy Speaker, that that is informing the House about to come to Parliament soon, will help with that. a major change to our social security system such as this delay to universal credit? My understanding after Mike Wood (Dudley South) (Con): No amount of five years in this House is that properly informing the money can repair the suffering of Paterson’s patients House is done by a written ministerial statement, or by and their families, but an inability to pay for treatment an oral ministerial statement. or support that might mitigate that suffering can make I have since been advised that last night the Minister an already horrific situation even more difficult. Will sent round a “dear colleague” letter, but that is still not the Minister look at the adequacy of medical indemnity informing the House because the Whip’s assistant to cover for healthcare professionals, whether they work in whom that letter was sent in our Whips’ Office has been the NHS or in the private sector? off ill, and I am still to receive a copy. It appears that Ministers sent that letter to people as an afterthought, Ms Dorries: The Government are currently undertaking rather than as a proactive way of informing the House. a review of the clinical negligence indemnity cover Do you expect Ministers to inform the House via statements, market, to determine whether wider regulation is an Madam Deputy Speaker, as I believe has normally been appropriate means of addressing concerns in the market. the practice, rather than by letters that can be lost, and As part of that they are consulting on the viability of do you expect the Minister to clarify the remarks that introducing professional or financial regulation, or a he earlier put on the record? combination of both. Madam Deputy Speaker: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving me notice of his point of order. He raised a number of issues about what the Minister said and subsequently did, and I am sure that the Minister will want to check the record of what he said in response to the urgent question. Having looked at the record, if the 211 Points of Order 4 FEBRUARY 2020 212

[Madam Deputy Speaker] NHS Funding Bill Minister considers that anything he said was in any way Considered in Legislative Grand Committee (England) inaccurate, he will want to put the record straight and issue a ministerial correction in the usual way. It is [DAME ROSIE WINTERTON in the Chair] important to be clear about what was actually said and subsequently done. 2.29 pm The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton): I remind hon. Members that if there is a Division only Members representing constituencies in England may vote.

Clause 1

FUNDING SETTLEMENT FOR THE HEALTH SERVICE IN ENGLAND

Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I beg to move amendment 2, page 1, line 10, at end insert— “(1A) The amount spent on mental health services in each financial year set out in the table must be set out in a statement laid before the House of Commons by the Secretary of State no later than 30 June in each year. (1B) The statement in subsection (1A) must be accompanied by a statement on the Secretary of State’s plans to achieve parity of esteem in mental health services.” This amendment would require the Secretary of State to report annually on the amount actually spent on mental health services, and on the Secretary of State’s plans to achieve parity of esteem in mental health services.

TheFirstDeputyChairman:Withthisitwillbeconvenient to discuss the following: Amendment 1, page 1, line 14, at end insert— “(2A) For each year in the table in subsection (1), the Secretary of State must specify the amount of the allotment that is for mental health services.” This amendment requires the Secretary of State to specify the amount to be spent each year on mental health services. Amendment 5, page 1, line 14, at end insert— “(2A) For each year in the table in subsection (1), the Secretary of State must specify the amount of the allotment that is for training for staff to improve maternity safety and care for mothers and babies.” This amendment would require the Secretary of State to specify the amount to be spent each year on improving maternity safety and care for mothers and babies. Amendment 3, page 1, line 18, at end insert— “and that the sums set out in the table are not permitted to be augmented by or composed of any virements from NHS capital budgets.” This amendment would stop the Secretary of State meeting the NHS England allotment for resource spending by using funds from NHS capital budgets. Clauses 1 and 2 stand part. New clause 1—Annual report on mental health spending— “The Secretary of State must lay before the House of Commons an annual statement of the outturn of NHS England spending on mental health services no later than six months after the end of each financial year, beginning with the year ending 31 March 2020 and up to and including the year ending 31 March 2024.” This new clause requires the Secretary of State to report each year on the actual level of spending on mental health services. 213 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 214

New clause 2—Annual Report on Child and Adolescent NHS England for that financial year contributed to the promotion Mental Health Services spending— in England of a comprehensive health service designed to secure improvement— “(1) The Secretary of State must lay before the House of Commons an annual statement of the outturn of NHS England (a) in the mental health of the people of England, and spending on Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service (CAMHS) no later than six months after the end of each financial year, (b) in the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of mental beginning with the year ending 31 March 2020 and up to and illness.” including the year ending 31 March 2024. This new clause would require the Secretary of State for Health (2) The annual statement from subsection (1) must report and Social Care to make an annual statement on how the funding figures on— received by mental health services that year from the overall annual (a) CAMHS expenditure per head, allotment has contributed to the improvement of mental health and (b) the percentage of the annual NHS England budget the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of mental illness. allotted to CAMHS, and New clause 11—Annual review of adequacy of allotment (c) the percentage of the annual mental health budget to NHS England— allotted to CAMHS. (3) The figures in subsection (2) must be broken down by “The Secretary of State must lay before each House of standard regional units in England or by such territories as the Parliament within 14 days of the Treasury laying the annual Secretary of State considers appropriate. main estimate for the Department of Health and Social Care an assessment of the extent to which changes in the costs of (4) Each statement under subsection (1) must include an pharmaceutical treatments, medical devices and service delivery assessment by the Secretary of State on whether expenditure on since the date on which this Act is passed have affected the health CAMHS has met the aims of the NHS Long Term Plan.” outcomes in England achieved as a result of the amounts in the This new clause would require the Secretary of State to report each table in section 1 of this Act allotted to NHS England.” year on the actual level of spending on CAMHS. It requires figures to be broken down by regional units and for the Secretary of State This new clause would require the Secretary of State to publish an to include an assessment of whether expenditure on CAMHS is annual assessment of the impact of changes in the costs of meeting the aims of the NHS Long Term Plan. pharmaceutical treatments, medical devices and service delivery on New clause 3—Allocation of funding— the expected outcomes from the allotted amounts under this Act. “The Secretary of State must lay a report before the House of Justin Madders: It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Commons no later than 31 July each year setting out how much Dame Rosie. In my speech I will address amendment 2 in percentage and in cash terms in relation to the amounts set out at section 1(1) has been spent on mental health services in the and, as we are dealing with everything in one go, the most recent year ended on 31 March.” other amendments and new clauses submitted in my This new clause would require the Secretary of State to report name and the names of my right hon. Friends. annually on the amount and proportion of NHS England spending It seems that Members across the House are anxious devoted to mental health services. that the Government’s laudable aims on parity of esteem New clause 4—Annual statement on performance— for mental health services are given some legislative “The Secretary of State must make a statement to the House teeth. The NHS long-term plan rightly calls for more of Commons no later than 31 March each year setting out— investment in mental health services to give mental (a) whether in the Secretary of State’s opinion the amount health the same priority as physical health. That is the specified in section 1(1) for the following financial right approach and it is one that we support. However, year is sufficient to meet the performance targets set as we can see by the amendments that have been tabled out in the NHS constitution, and today, there is scepticism about how that will actually (b) if in the Secretary of State’s opinion the amount be delivered. Investment in mental health services has specified in section 1(1) for the following financial been seriously neglected in recent years and mental year is not sufficient to meet the performance targets health patients are some of the people who have been set out in the NHS constitution, what steps Secretary most let down by the Government in the last decade. of State is taking to ensure that those targets are met.” No doubt we will hear from those on the Government This new clause would require the Secretary of State to report annually on whether the allotment to the health service specified in Benches that mental health spending is increasing, and section 1(1) year is sufficient to meet the performance targets set that the funding set out in the Bill will benefit mental out in the NHS Constitution and, if not, what steps Secretary of health services, but the reality is that on this Government’s State is taking to ensure that those targets are met. watch, we have seen a mental health crisis emerge. We New clause 5—Inflation— are not getting the investment at the level required and “(1) The Secretary of State must make a statement to the House services are simply unable to keep pace with demand. of Commons in the event that the annual rate of inflation as set As a consequence, the number of people living with out in the Consumer Prices Index is greater than 3.3% in any six serious mental health problems is rising. Patients are months out of twelve after the date on which this Act is passed. unable to access vital psychological therapies within (2) The statement under subsection (1) must specify whether, six weeks and often have to wait over 100 days for and by how much, the allotments to the health service in talking therapy treatments. Thousands of mental health England set out will exceed the amount specified in the table in patients continue to be sent hundreds of miles from section 1(1).” home, because their local NHS does not have the beds This new clause would require the Secretary of State to make a or the staff to provide the care they need. These are statement on the impact of inflation above a certain rate on the often young people in desperate circumstances being allotments to NHS England. sent away from their family and friends—their support New clause 9—Annual parity of esteem report: spending network, as it were—and that to me sounds a long way on mental health and mental illness— away from parity of esteem. We know that adults in “Within six weeks of the end of each financial year specified in need of help with eating disorders are waiting more the table, the Secretary of State must lay before each House of than three years for treatment, while hospital admissions Parliament a report on the ways in which the allotment made to for eating disorders increase year on year. The number 215 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 216

[Justin Madders] the NHS budget to mental health. As we know, mental health illnesses represent 23% of the total disease burden of people living with serious mental health problems is on the NHS, but just 11% of the NHS England budget. continuing to rise and suicide levels are at their highest That is a long way off the parity of esteem that we all since 2002. seek to achieve. Even against this awful backdrop, however,it is children’s We know that the Government plan to put in an extra mental health services that are suffering most from the £2.3 billion a year by 2023-24, but that is not enough. chronic lack of funding. Children’s mental health services The Institute for Public Policy Research has said that to account for just 8% of total mental health spending, achieve parity of esteem for mental health services, and the Government’s continual failure to prioritise funding for those services needs to grow by 5.5% on children’s mental health has led to services for children average not just next year, but over the next decade. The effectively being rationed. We know that on average, NHS plans to spend £12.2 billion on mental health children and young people visit their GP three times funding in 2019, but the IPPR estimates that that needs before they get a referral for specialist assessment. They to reach 16.1 billion by 2023-24 alone. then have to wait more than six months for treatment to Of course, we support the increased funding for start. Suicidal children as young as 12 are having to wait mental health in the Bill, but we know the NHS has to more than two weeks for beds in mental health units to live within the 3.3% uplift provided under the Bill. The start treatment, despite the obvious risk to their lives. Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Health Foundation, Three out of four children with mental health conditions NHS providers, the British Medical Association and do not get the support they need. With over 130,000 many of the royal colleges say that health expenditure referrals to specialist services turned down, despite children should rise across the board by 3.4% just to maintain showing signs of eating disorders, self-harm or abuse, current standards of care. By definition, there will the problem has become so bad that some children and actually be less money for funding in other areas. That families are being told by their GPs to pretend that their means there is a risk of further raids on the mental mental health problem is worse than it is to make sure health budget. In previous years, money allocated to mental they get the help they need. Four hundred thousand health services, particularly children and adolescent children and young people with mental health conditions mental health services, has been diverted back to hospitals are not receiving any professional help at all—400,000. to deal with the crisis there. That is a scandalous figure. We know that mental health Labour would have done what was desperately needed. conditions in adults often begin in childhood, so it is We would have put in an extra £1.6 billion a year not only an outrageous dereliction of duty to our young immediately into mental health services, ring-fenced people; it will also end up costing the NHS and society mental health budgets and more than doubled spending far more in the long run. on children’s mental health. That is why we are seeking to amend the Bill to ensure mental health services do Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): I not lose out because of other financial pressures in the do not want to detain the hon. Gentleman too long, system. We are calling on the Government to ensure because he is making a very good speech and very that guarantees for mental health funding are protected important points, but I just wonder whether he has any by ring-fencing mental health funding. We also seek to views about the setting of this debate in the Legislative require the Secretary of State to come to the House Grand Committee, the de facto English Parliament. annually to report on the amounts and proportion of SNP Members are excluded from voting in this debate funding allocated to mental health services, and on and excluded from tabling any amendments, yet the Bill their plans to achieve parity of esteem for mental health will have a fundamental impact on the health funding services. of Scotland through Barnett consequentials.I am interested On the Labour Benches we are not convinced that in his views on that process, so will he say something mental health is a priority for this Government, despite about them? Can we have Labour support, so that this what they say. They may want to position themselves nonsense stops and we go back to one class of MP in as the party of the NHS, but as long as they continue this House where everybody can participate equally? to neglect mental health and push services deeper into crisis, they will not come near that aim. We intend to Justin Madders: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his push amendment 2 to a Division, because we want to intervention. I understand his frustration absolutely. I hold the Government to account. We want transparency think he has a very fair point, Dame Rosie, that because on mental health spending and we want a clear road of the Barnett consequentials there is a role for SNP map from the Secretary of State on how he intends to Members—indeed, all Scottish and Welsh Members—in make parity of esteem a reality. this debate. Clearly, that is a separate issue to the whole English votes for English laws process, but the fact is Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I wonder clear that on the face of the Bill there are Barnett if I could raise with my hon. Friend an example that I consequentials, which mean that the devolved nations think makes his point, which is the state of NHS ought to have a say. finances in north-west London, in particular of the It is really no wonder, given the background I have acute hospital that serves my constituents, Northwick just set out, that children are reaching a crisis point Park Hospital, and the clinical commissioning group. before getting the support they need, and that the Both the trust and the CCG are over £30 million in number of children attending accident and emergency deficit. As a result, they have cut back on community for their mental health in a situation of crisis is increasing mental health services and, indeed, on a range of other year on year. That is not inevitable. With real investment, things. Unless there is parity of esteem and unless there we could reverse the trend of long waits, rationed is a significantly higher funding boost for the NHS in treatment and inadequate care if we allocated more of north-west London than that currently being suggested 217 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 218 by the Conservative party, I fear that mental health Justin Madders: My hon. Friend is absolutely right: it services, as he so rightly says, are likely to be cut even is a matter of some regret that public health has not further. been included in the Bill. As we have said repeatedly, we have to look at the health system in the round and Justin Madders: My hon. Friend sets out very clearly include public health and, of course, social care. We the challenge that the Government face from the debt cannot deal with those matters in isolation and I believe situation in the NHS. Both in-year deficits and total debt that it was a mistake for the Government to restrict the to Government have not been addressed adequately or Bill in this way. taken into account in the Bill and that is clearly of huge Despite the many tragedies that we know about in concern. maternity care, it is worth restating that we still have Amendment 5 deals with patient safety, which should fantastic midwives and fantastic maternity care in this be front and centre in the NHS. When things go wrong, country. That is to be celebrated, but we also need to as they sadly do from time to time, it can have tragic ensure that when things go wrong—when there are consequences for patients and their loved ones. When failures and safety issues—we address them and lessons three in four baby deaths and injuries are preventable are learned so that no more families have to experience with different care, it seems particularly tragic when such tragedies. things go wrong during birth, leaving families devastated Amendment 3 is about genuinely giving trusts the by the loss of a child or having to cope with the certainty that the Bill only purports to do, as well as long-term impact. There have been many things over beginning to tackle the appalling maintenance backlog the years that I have disagreed with the previous Secretary that has arisen on the Government’s watch. As we know, of State—the right hon. Member for South West Surrey trusts are around £14 billion in debt to the Government (Jeremy Hunt)—about, but on Second Reading he raised and are currently predicting a £571 million in-year the important issue of maternity safety training, calling deficit. That is a truly shocking and unsustainable situation. on the current Health Secretary to reinstate the maternity Only short-term fixes have prevented the situation from safety fund. We absolutely agree with him on that, getting even worse. Such fixes are a symptom of structural which is why we have tabled amendment 5. long-term underfunding, and like most short-term fixes Improved maternal health is one of four priority they create bigger problems further down the road. areas in the long-term plan for care quality and improved Wehave been absolutely clear that the funding settlement outcomes, and it includes action to achieve 50% reductions proposed in the Bill is inadequate and that it will not be in stillbirth, maternal mortality, neonatal mortality and enough to keep up with demand. As I said, that analysis serious brain injury by the middle of the decade. As a is shared by just about every major health expert, party, we have pledged to legislate for safe staffing and including the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Health to increase funding for NHS staff training, including Foundation, most royal colleges and NHS providers, reinstating the maternity training fund to help to improve and the BMA. maternity safety in our hospitals. The leaked interim report of the Ockenden review last year exposed widespread 2.45 pm failures in maternity care at Shrewsbury and Telford In that context, we are concerned that there will be a hospital trusts and demonstrated, sadly, that Morecambe temptation, as there has been, to dip into capital budgets Bay was not a one-off. to paper over the cracks on a day-to-day basis. We have An evaluation of maternity safety training from 2016 seen that happen five times in the last decade. This found that it had made a difference and improved patient means that we now face a maintenance backlog that has safety, yet it was still axed. Just two years later, the spiralled out of all control, topping £6.5 billion. That is “Mind the Gap” report found that fewer than 8% of an 8% increase on the previous year, when the cost was trusts were providing all training elements and care just under £6 billion. In dollars, that might get us one needs in the “Saving Babies’ Lives” bundle and called Steve Austin, but it is not enough to fix the NHS—I for the maternity safety training fund to be immediately suspect that that reference might not mean much to reinstated to address, as it said, the anyone under 40, although I understand that there will “clear…inadequate funding for training”. be a reboot later this year, so it might become a bit more Given the clear evidence of the need for the training fund’s relevant. However, the point is that this figure has been reinstatement, I very much regret that it is not within rising each year for the last six years and it is now the scope of the Bill for us to submit an amendment to 60% higher than it was in 2013-14. It is very clear that include its reinstatement. However, with the amendment the backlog has risen much faster than the resources we seek to put a greater spotlight on the issue, and that have been made available to tackle it. hopefully, that will require the Government to set out how Over half the backlog represents high and significant much they are spending on improving maternity safety risk. That accounts for an increasing proportion of the and care for mothers and babies each year in order total backlog figures. High and significant risk represented for them to demonstrate their commitment to improving about 34% of the backlog in 2013-14, but last year— maternity and foetal safety. I believe that that will enable 2018-19—it had gone up to 53%. It is getting bigger and us to judge and evaluate their commitment to those aims. all the time, it also becomes riskier. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): It is not Gareth Thomas: In support of the case that my hon. within the Bill’s scope to press the Government on the Friend is making, I again mention Northwick Park need to have funding restored to smoking cessation Hospital, which serves my constituents. It has a huge services so that they can have multimedia campaigns to maintenance backlog. Since the cancellation of the reduce smoking in pregnancy and smoking generally. Government’s “Shaping a Healthier Future”NHS reform Does my hon. Friend agree that it is a shame that the plan for north-west London in June last year—that Government cannot address that at this time? programme of reform had been going on for seven years 219 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 220

[Gareth Thomas] hospital, in that it was built to serve the people of Deeside in north Wales as well as Chester and the surrounding —there has also been no replacement money identified area, so is it not strange that, although many in my area for investment in intensive treatment beds, an extra rely on it, I will not be allowed to vote on the Bill today? 30 of which are needed to help to tackle some of the problems in A&E at Northwick Park Hospital. Justin Madders: My hon. Friend makes a pertinent point. Both my parents are residents of north Wales but Justin Madders: My hon. Friend is again showing on occasion use the Countess of Chester Hospital. This what an assiduous and determined constituency MP he process does not take account of the reality on the ground. is. He might want to look at the NHS providers’ report As I said before, the fact that there will be Barnett today, which sets out some of the challenges from the consequentials from the Bill suggests that we have made lack of a long-term capital investment programme. As a serious error in not allowing those from the devolved we have heard, including from him and in relation to nations to vote on it. other various examples around the country, this is not just about a lick of paint, but about really vital work that We know what some trusts have told us about the impacts on patient care. lack of capital investment and what that means on the frontline: Morecambe Bay has said it has “unsuitable” Alex Cunningham: When my hon. Friend talks about environments for safe clinical care that have led to the capital, I think of the hospital that was cancelled for my closure of its day case theatre; the Queen Elizabeth constituency by the Tory-Lib Dem Government 10 years Hospital in King’s Lynn has warned of a direct risk to ago. Does he share my opinion that when it comes to life and patient safety from the roof falling in; and at the capital programme and NHS funding, the Government the Royal Derby Hospital, a failing emergency buzzer should consider the life expectancy in different areas? In system in the children’s ward means that staff would be my constituency, it is 14 years lower than in the Prime unable to warn colleagues if something went seriously Minister’sconstituency,so I desperately need a new hospital wrong. That is not acceptable. for my area. The capital maintenance backlog will not be addressed unless the Government take note of what NHS Providers Justin Madders: I am sure that if my hon. Friend says in the report that came out this morning. It talks continues with his determined campaign, he will see about the need for the NHS to have a multi-year capital that hospital appear. His point about health inequalities settlement and a commitment from the Government to is really important. It is absolutely scandalous that we bringing the NHS capital budget in line with those in see such disparity in this country, and we want to see comparable economies, which would allow the NHS to further and more determined action from the Government pay for essential maintenance work and invest in long-term on that. transformational capital projects of the kind we have Patients ultimately pay for the increasing backlog. touched on. One of our criticisms of the Bill is that Between 2017-18 and 2018-19, there was a 25% increase capital allocations have not been included in the figures in clinical service incidents. These incidents are caused in clause 1, so in order to protect those allocations we by estate and infrastructure failure that leads to clinical have tabled amendment 3, which we hope to push to a services being delayed, cancelled or otherwise interfered vote, to stop the Government’s continual sticking-plaster with. approach. Dr Dan Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) I move now to performance targets and our new (Con): The hon. Gentleman is making some very fair clause 4. We all know about the record investment and points about the importance of investing in hospital record patient satisfaction levels that the last Labour infrastructure. A number of years ago, we were promised Government bequeathed to the Conservatives, but another a paperless NHS, but the reality today is very different. part of their legacy was the NHS constitution, introduced In fact, NHS IT infrastructure is creaking at the seams. as part of a 10-year plan to provide the highest quality There has been a complete failure to invest adequately of care and services for patients in England. It included in that infrastructure, which is compromising patient a clear statement of accountability, transparency and care. Far too many staff hours are lost on IT systems responsibility,and standards of care for accessing treatment. that are not fit for purpose. Will he join me in urging the These are the figures we often trade across the Dispatch Government to take that issue very seriously, because it Box. is about improving patient care as well as improving Only last month, across this very Dispatch Box, the productivity and better using staff time? Prime Minister gave us assurances on performance. He said: Justin Madders: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We have all heard horror stories of “Wewill get those waiting lists down”—[Official Report, 15 January workers in the health service having to turn on seven or 2020; Vol. 669, c. 1015.] eight different computer systems and use fax machines We would all like to see that, but we should remind and pagers— there were so many fax machines in the ourselves of the Government’s sorry record: the target NHS I used to think the previous Health Secretary was for 95% of patients being seen within four hours in sponsored by Rank Xerox. It is a serious point though. A&E has not been met since July 2015; the target for If we are to improve patient outcomes, we will need to 92% of people on the waiting list to be waiting fewer move with the times and get the benefits of technological than 18 weeks for treatment has not been met since improvements. February 2016; the target for 1% of patients waiting for more than six weeks for a diagnostic test has not been Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): My hon. Friend met since November 2013; and the NHS has not met will agree on the importance of the Countess of Chester the 62-day standard for urgent referrals for suspected Hospital to his area and mine. It is quite a unique cancer treatment since December 2015. I fail to see how 221 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 222 the Prime Minister can drive down waiting lists when been met for four years—not since February 2016—and the level health expenditure he is proposing is not obviously has never been met by the current Secretary enough to meet existing demand. of State. They are real people waiting for cancer treatment: the Prime Minister himself agreed last month that it Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): I note the was unacceptable that the target for treating cancer statistics the hon. Member has shared with the House, patients within 62 days of urgent GP referrals had not but how do they compare to the outcomes that my been met for five years. That is five years of failure. constituents in Wales face? I would suggest they fare much They are people waiting on hospital trolleys: the number worse. of people waiting four hours or more on hospital trolleys reached 98,452 last December, which is not only a Justin Madders: Across the piece, some areas in Wales 65% increase on the same point the previous year, but are actually performing better than areas in England. the highest on record. The direction of travel is the right one. If the right hon. As we heard on Second Reading, the failure to meet Member is so interested in the performance in Wales, he these targets has real consequences. Research from the should stand for the Welsh Assembly; he will have the Royal College of Emergency Medicine shows that almost opportunity to do so in the not-too-distant future. I am 5,000 patients have died in the past three years because sure he was aware when he stood for this place that they spent so long on a trolley waiting for a bed in an health was a devolved issue. overcrowded hospital. As we have said several times during our consideration of the Bill, the true increase in Gareth Thomas: I want to raise again the example of funding is about 4.1%—I will not list again all the Northwick Park Hospital, which serves my constituents. bodies that agree with that figure—yet the money in the It has not met the four-hour A&E target since August Bill will not be enough. 2015. One of the latest issues responsible for the increasing This is all before last week’s news about the Chancellor pressure on waiting times at Northwick Park is the looking for 5% savings in all Departments, including closure of our walk-in services, which were one of the this one. That might not affect the figures in the Bill, but great reforms of the previous Labour Government. there might be cuts across the wider Department that Alexandra Avenue, which served my constituency, closed do have a knock-on impact on service delivery. Let us in November 2018, and Belmont health centre, which take a look at A&E. There is increased demand on our served the constituency of Harrow East, closed in A&E services, for many reasons, including the years of November 2019. The last walk-in service in the London cuts to social care, but that is not covered in the Bill. Borough of Harrow, the Pinn medical centre, which Will the 5% cut come from there—if it does, more and currently is in the constituency of the hon. Member for more people will be forced into A&E by a collapsing Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds), is social care system—or from public health, as we have also due to close, and yet it is increasingly difficult to get heard previously,which would inevitably store up problems an answer to a request for a meeting to discuss that in the short and longer term? closure with Ministers or the chief executive of NHS None of this can be said to be likely to have no England. impact on performance targets, which for too long have been treated as a poor relation by this Government. The Justin Madders: There has to be a correlation between Government have widely ignored them, to the extent the number of closures my hon. Friend is seeing and his that they are spending more time dreaming up ways to CCG’s debts, which he was referring to earlier. The get rid of them than to meet them. We say that patients pressure on frontline services is making these decisions, deserve better. We will push the new clause to a vote, which it is more and more likely can only impact on because we believe it is clear that the Secretary of State performance. I hope that when the Minister responds will not be able to drive down waiting lists or drive up he will be able to give him the satisfaction of at least a performance with the level of health expenditure that meeting to discuss the issue further. he proposes to enshrine in law. The funding in the Bill is insufficient to reverse the Rather than presenting the Bill as a panacea, let us decline in recent years, let alone deliver the aspirations ensure that the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister set out in the long-term plan. It is not just the opinion are held to account for the promises that they make, of Her Majesty’s Opposition that the performance targets and that the Secretary of State comes to this place every cannot be met; NHS England has also made it clear year to tell us whether, in the Government’s opinion, the that the core treatment targets cannot be met because of funding allocated for that year will be sufficient to meet the funding settlement imposed by the Government. those performance targets. If it is not, the Government And who loses out month after month when performance must set out what they are going to do about it. It targets are missed? It is patients. Whether for pre-planned is simply not good enough to continue, year after year, surgery, cancer treatment, diagnostic tests or emergency to have a Government who treat the targets as an care, our constituents are waiting longer and longer, inconvenience. If those standards are to mean anything often in pain and distress, to access the health services to patients, and if the Government are serious about they need. The figures do not lie. persuading us that they mean something to them as well, We must remember that the figures are also real they will have to come here every single year and tell us, people. They are real people stuck on waiting lists: the unambiguously and with reference to the funding package total number of people on waiting lists in England is for this year, how they intend to meet those targets. now 4.41 million, which is the highest since records began, and up from 4.1 million, when the right hon. 3 pm Member for West Suffolk first became the Secretary of Let me now say a few words about new clause 5 and State. They are real people waiting for treatment: the inflation. I am conscious that a number of other Members target to treat 92% of patients within 18 weeks has not wish to speak, so I will be fairly brief. The new clause is 223 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 224 a safeguard to deal with a mistake made in the Bill. Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con): It is a great Because the amounts are presented in cash rather than pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port real terms, the figures may not end up being as big as and Neston (Justin Madders). We were on opposite they at first appear. While inflation is now relatively stable Front Benches for many years, but I always had great and within a reasonable range of the Bank of England’s respect for his detailed understanding of healthcare target, I do not think that anybody—particularly at this issues and the integrity of his approach. He once wrote time—can confidently predict the rate at which it will be me a private letter. I will not divulge its contents; suffice running at in two, three or four years’ time. it to say that it demonstrated his recognition that we are human beings on this side of the House. That was a rare Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP): Is admission from a member of the Labour party, and I that not the most critical weakness in the Bill? Given am very grateful to him for it. that inflation is expected to rise after Brexit, the figures Iwillnotbesupportingthehon.Gentleman’samendments for 2023-24 are just guesswork. There should be a and new clauses, but I think he is right to raise the issues commitment to £20 billion by that year, in real terms. that he has raised, and I want to propose some different ways of achieving his objectives. I am very pleased that Justin Madders: There are indeed many weaknesses he has raised the issue of mental health and mental in the Bill, which, given that it is so short, is quite an healthfunding,andIthereforewishtospeaktoamendments achievement on the Government’s part. That is the 1 and 2 and new clauses 1, 2 and 3. point of the new clause. We cannot say with any certainty what the rate of inflation will be in a few years’ time. It I think that all hon Members have knocked on the is important for funding that is seen as adequate now—at doors of constituents—I did as Health Secretary—and least by Conservative Members, if by no one else—not been confronted by people who have been given a totally to be downgraded further as a result of economic inadequate service in relation to their mental health or turbulence. We have had no guarantees that a different that of their children. One person I met, who was not a economic picture will change the Government’s stance. constituent, was a very remarkable gentleman called Steve Indeed, when on Second Reading we sought assurances Mallen. He had a son, Edward, who had an extraordinarily that the NHS would still receive the real-terms increases promising life in front of him. Edward had secured a envisaged in the Bill should inflation run at unforeseen place at Cambridge, he was very musical, he had friends; levels in the future, no commitments were forthcoming. and then, in the year before he was due to go up to When pressed by my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge, he had a six-month period of severe mental Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), the Secretary illness and ended up killing himself, five years ago this of State could not give the cast-iron commitments that Sunday. I think that all of us have to have people like are needed by those delivering the services. Even if this Edward Mallen at the back of our minds, and to remember, is an unsatisfactory settlement, they deserve some certainty as we enjoy a normal weekend, that for Edward’s family that the sums involved will not be eroded by spikes in Sunday will be a very, very challenging day. inflation. I believe we could all come up with stories like that. I As the Secretary of State said on Second Reading, mentioned Steve Mallen because he has chosen to relive the grief that he feels for his son Edward. He made a “The crucial thing in this Bill is the certainty.”—[Official Report, 27 January 2020; Vol. 670, c. 560.] promise at Edward’s funeral that he would campaign to ensure that other people received the mental health We are not sure whether he meant certain failure, because provision that Edward did not receive. He subsequently we know that the sums set out in the Bill are not enough set up the Zero Suicide Alliance with an inspirational to keep up with demand, but the new clause seeks to NHS chief executive called Jo Rafferty, who runs Mersey ensure that the NHS is, at least to some extent, insulated Care. It is a fantastic project, and I am pleased to say against unforeseen economic shocks. It would act as a that the Health Secretary has agreed to a meeting to safety net in the event that inflation ran above 3.3% for discuss continued funds for the alliance. As we think more than six months in any 12-month period. It also about people like Edward, it is important to understand requires a statement from the Secretary of State about just why funding for mental health has not increased at whether any additional funds will be made available to the rate at which it should have, and why we do not have supplement the sums set out in the Bill. That would at the service provision that we should have. least provide some clarity and certainty about whether there will be any real-terms reduction in funding as a Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): Does the result of a sustained rise in inflation. right hon. Gentleman share my concern about the fact Let me finally say a little about new clause 11, and the that the mental health charity Combat Stress has said it adequacy of the allotment to NHS England. As I have is unable to accept any more new cases? Support for the already made clear, the Bill sets NHS expenditure for charity, which helps military veterans, has fallen in the the next four years at a level that is not sufficient to put last few years, and 90% of its income consists of public the NHS on a sustainable footing or to improve donations. performance. That is why we are seeking to ensure that the impact of unforeseen changes in the costs of Jeremy Hunt: I am well aware of the fantastic work pharmaceutical treatments, medical devices and services— done by Combat Stress, and I think it is important for it possibly as a result of our leaving the European Union, to receive the funds that it needs. However, when we or of the trade deals that we sign—are reviewed by the look at the root cause of the problems in mental health Government so that adequate funds are available to funding, we see that on both sides of the Committee meet any uplift, and so that there is no negative impact there is some culpability, and that on both sides it was on health outcomes. Much has been said about the completely unintentional. I hope that the shadow Secretary possibilities in new trading arrangements, but not enough of State, the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan about the risks, of which this is only one. Ashworth), will forgive me if I start with the other side. 225 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 226

The truth is that when targets were introduced in the if they really want to know whether we are going to 2000s for A&E and elective care waiting times they were deliver on those promises, looking at the workforce hugely effective, but they were introduced only for physical numbers in children and young people’s mental health healthcare. As a result, during the austerity period in the CAMHS workforce is the way to understand when the budgets of clinical commissioning groups or whether we are going to be able to deliver those extra primary care trusts were under pressure, money was commitments. sucked out of community and mental health services. That is at the heart of the problem that has bedevilled Mark Tami: Is not that the key point? Young people’s mental health care. The position changed in 2012, because experience of CAMHS on the ground is that they just a Labour amendment to the Bill that became the Health cannot get an appointment. Rather than being seen in and Social Care Act 2012 instituted parity of esteem the early stages, as they should be, they often get seen between mental and physical health. We were the first only when they have become suicidal or have tried to country in the world to do that. commit suicide. That is the wrong way round. As a Conservative, I am always deeply sceptical about Jeremy Hunt: The hon Gentleman is absolutely right. legislating for principles, because I am not totally convinced On both sides of the Chamber, we are totally committed that it ever changes anything, but that amendment did to the NHS and totally committed to transforming bring about a significant and very practical change, mental health services, but I am afraid that young people which I discovered myself as Health Secretary. No are regularly turned away from CAMHS and told, Health Secretary and no NHS chief executive ever “You are not ill enough yet. Come back when things get wants to have to say publicly that the proportion of worse.” Why is that such a tragedy? Because half of all funding going to mental health has fallen on his or her mental health conditions become established before the watch, because that would be a direct contradiction of age of 14, and the way to reduce the pressure on the the principle of parity of esteem. That is why, since this NHS is to intervene early. That is what does not happen. became law, we have seen the proportion of funding of the entire NHS budget going into mental health either David Simmonds (Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner) stabilised or starting to go up. That should put to rest (Con): In support of what my right hon. Friend has some of the Opposition’s concerns about the risk of a said, I think that one of this Government’s great initiatives decreasing proportion of NHS funding going into mental in respect of children’s mental health in the past decade health, but it does not solve the problem. has been the work done through the health and wellbeing The issue when it comes to mental health services for boards. I know that this was strongly supported by him our constituencies is not about political will or funding; when he was Secretary of State and by other Ministers it is about capacity. We have an enormous number of since. Every local authority, using its connections with ambitious plans on mental health. I unveiled one—in the schools and general practitioners in its local area, 2016, from memory—that said we would treat 1 million has a plan that reflects local need. This has evolved over more people by 2020 and increase spending by several the years to change the commissioning priorities at billion pounds. The mental health “Forward View” had local level, which is reflected in what is purchased from some very ambitious plans, and we had the children and NHS providers to address local need. I offer as an young people’s Green Paper. There are also targets to example an online counselling service that has been increase access to talking therapies, which are essential introduced to serve my constituents. The feedback from for people with anxiety and depression. But if we do young people is that it is tremendously more accessible not increase the capacity of the system to deliver these than what was there previously, and it is a lot less services, in the end we will miss the targets. For example, expensive than the type of services previously being the children and young people’s Green Paper is an commissioned. That demonstrates the commitment we incredibly important programme, with a plan for every have on the Government Benches to addressing children’s secondary school in the country to have a mental health mental health. lead among the teaching staff who would have some of the basic training that a GP would have to spot a mild 3.15 pm mental health illness, anxiety or depression, or a severe Jeremy Hunt: My hon. Friend has huge experience of one such as OCD or bipolar, and therefore know to this in local government, and he is absolutely right. The refer it—[Interruption.] I am getting a look. I understand, big surprise for me when we were conceiving of the and I will draw my comments to a close— children and young people’sGreen Paper was the willingness of NHS professionals to accept that the people who Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con): No, know the kids best are their teachers, rather than GPs, you are meant to face the Chair. because the teachers see them every day and are probably going to be better at spotting a mental illness and being Jeremy Hunt: Thank you. I am sorry—I am new to able to do something about it. this Back-Bench stuff. Apologies for not facing the Chair. I will now do so more diligently. Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab): I The point I wanted to make, Dame Rosie, is simply would like the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether that the children and young people’s Green Paper requires he supports an important proposal that we put forward an increase in the children and young people’s work- at the general election. It was that there should be a force of—from my memory as Health Secretary—9,000 trained counsellor in every school to spot mental health additional people. The CAMHS workforce is actually problems. Putting that burden on to teachers and others only 10,000, so the Green Paper alone requires a near in the teaching profession is the wrong way forward. In doubling of the mental health workforce. Far be it from Wales, we have the experience that having trained me to teach experienced Opposition Members how to counsellors in schools relieves the pressure on CAMHS. scrutinise the Government or hold them to account, but If we want to take children’s mental health seriously 227 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 228

[Barbara Keeley] my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) in her place, and she has campaigned actively on that and relieve the pressure on CAMHS, we should do this. issue. The big challenge now is to think about ways to I have a couple of schools in my constituency that have change our blame culture into a learning culture. trained counsellors, and it really helps. The other thing that we proposed was to have a mental health hub in Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con): I declare an every local authority area, so that children and their interest in that, a long time ago, I was a personal injury families in crisis would have somewhere to go where barrister, including in cases of medical negligence. Does there would be professionals and charities that work in my right hon. Friend think a possible solution to the mental health. Those ideas that we put forward really resistance to blame in the national health service might should be considered, and I wonder whether the right be the adoption of a no-fault compensation scheme hon. Gentleman supports them. much like that in the personal injury sphere in New Zealand, for example? Jeremy Hunt: They are both interesting ideas. The plan at the moment is that resource will be given to Jeremy Hunt: My hon. Friend makes an important schools for a teacher to volunteer to devote a proportion suggestion. We considered such a thing when I was at of their time to this, and that there will be funding the Department of Health and Social Care, but we for them to do so, similar to the way in which schools decided that it would be very expensive. One of the have a special educational needs co-ordinator who is a tragedies is that many people who suffer actually make teacher devoted to the special needs of the pupils in that no legal claim because they are so committed to the school. I personally would have no objection if that NHS, so we have a system that gives huge amounts of were a separate counsellor, but this needs to be a money to one group of people and nothing at all to resource inside the school—someone who is regularly at those who decide that they do not want to sue the NHS. the school and who knows the children there. That is the important thing. We need to look at tort reform, because most barristers and lawyers working in this field want the outcome of With permission, Dame Rosie, I would like to comment their cases to be that the NHS learns from what went on some of the other amendments and on some of the wrong and does not repeat it. Unfortunately, that is not comments made by the hon. Member for Ellesmere what happens with the current system. The involvement Port and Neston. He rightly talked about the issues of lawyers and litigation causes a defensive culture to around maternity safety, and I agree that it is vital that emerge, and we actually do the opposite. We do not we continue the maternity safety training fund. That is learn from mistakes, and that is what we now have to not directly the subject of one of his amendments, but it grip and change. is indirectly connected to it. Twice a week in the NHS, the Health Secretary has to sign off a multi-million pound I want to say something positive, because if we do settlement to a family whose child has been disabled for change that we will be the first healthcare system in the life as a result of medical negligence. What is even more world to do it properly. We are already by far the most depressing is that there is no discernible evidence that transparent system in the world, mainly because people that number is going down. The reason for that is that in this place are always asking questions about the when such tragedies happen, instead of doing the most NHS—and rightly so. Healthcare systems all over the important thing, which is learning the lesson of what world experience the same problem. It is difficult to talk went wrong and ensuring that it is spread throughout openly about mistakes because one can make a mistake the whole country, we end up with a six-year legal case. in any other walk of life and get on with one’s life, but if It is impossible for a family with a child disabled at birth someone dies because of the mistake, that is an incredibly to get compensation from the NHS unless they prove in difficult thing for the individuals concerned to come to court that the doctor was negligent. Obviously, the terms with. That is why we end up on this in this vicious doctor will fight that. That is why we still have too much legal circle. of a cover-up culture, despite the best intentions of On capital to revenue transfers,I was a guilty party during doctors and nurses. This is the last thing they want to my time as Health Secretary. There were many capital do, but the system ends up putting them under pressure to revenue transfers because we were running out of to do it. That is why we are not learning from mistakes. money, so capital budgets were raided. I fully understand I am afraid that that is the same thing that was referred why the Opposition wanted to table amendment 3, but I to in the Paterson inquiry report that was published respectfully suggest that the trouble is that it would today: the systemic covering up of problems that allowed result not in more money going into the NHS but in Mr Paterson’s work to carry on undetected for so long. more money going back to the Treasury from unspent The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston is capital amounts. The real issue of capital projects is absolutely right on that. getting through the bureaucratic processes that mean I think it is a fair assessment of safety in the NHS to that capital budgets are actually spent. say that huge strides have been made in the past five or six years on transparency. It is much more open about Pete Wishart: I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman things that go wrong than it used to be, and that is a on securing the chairmanship of the Health and Social very positive development. But transparency alone is Care Committee, and I look forward to joining him on not enough. We have to change the practice of doctors the Liaison Committee. He is a former Secretary of and nurses on the ground, and that means spreading State, so he surely understands and appreciates that this best practice. Unfortunately, that is not happening, Bill has a significant impact on Scotland, because it will which is why, even after the tragedies of Mid Staffs, affect our budgets through the Barnett consequentials. Morecambe Bay and Southern Health, we are facing Does he think it is right that we are excluded from yet another tragedy at Shrewsbury and Telford—I see tabling or even voting on any amendments? 229 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 230

Jeremy Hunt: I do, because this Bill about the NHS in absolutely expect us to get back to meeting those targets. England. It would be nice if we occasionally had a word It was an important step forward for the NHS that we of thanks, because the Bill will result in a lot more did bring down waiting times, and I have often credited money being made available for the NHS in Scotland. the previous Labour Government for that happening, The hon. Gentleman should, if I may say so, welcome as I hope the Labour party will credit this Government that, because I think that will be as welcomed among for the focus on safety and quality in the wake of Mid the Scots as it will be welcomed by the English. Staffs. However, as we focus on safety and quality, I My point about capital to revenue transfers is that it would not want to lose the achievements that were is a big deal to get a hospital building project off the made on waiting times, because it is fundamental to all ground. So many get delayed because hospital management patients that they do not have to wait too long for care. teams are very busy. They may have struggling A&E Indeed, waiting times themselves can be a matter of departments and are trying to meet other targets and to patient safety. deal with safety issues—whatever it is—and they do not have the management resource to invest in putting David Simmonds: My right hon. Friend mentioned together the case that, quite rightly, the Treasury and targets and people getting access to care. The hon. the Department of Health and Social Care demand is Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas) referenced extremely rigorous and thorough. That is why things get Pinn Medical Centre, which is in my constituency, and delayed. If we want to ensure that these 40 hospitals get the impact on Northwick Park Hospital in his constituency. built, the Government should consider a central team at This is a really good example of when the issue is not the Department of Health and Social Care to put at the with the total sum of funding but with how the NHS is disposal of hospitals that we want to build extensions spending it. If the system can afford £300 to pay for or new buildings, so that they can actually navigate each A&E attendance, I am sure it can afford £70 for those patients to attend a walk-in centre instead. This is those hurdles—[Interruption.] I am getting nods from the very capable Minister for Health, my hon. Friend not about an arms race and who can spend the most, the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), so that but about who can bring the most focus to spending the might be under consideration. money in the way that benefits patients and our constituents the greatest. Alex Cunningham: I am grateful to the former Secretary Jeremy Hunt: My hon. Friend neatly makes the point of State for giving way. I admire his admitting his role in that I was hoping to make next. I will elaborate on the converting capital to revenue, and I am sure he regrets brilliance of his insight and simply say that when we that he was unable to build the hospital we need in think about waiting times it is very important that it is Stockton to close the health inequality gaps in our not just a debate about money. I appreciate that the Bill society. If he has any influence left in Government, is about money, and that is why amendments have been perhaps he will have a word in some ears and say, “They tabled about money, but I want to give the example of really do need a new hospital in Stockton-on-Tees.” the annual cycle of winter crises that we seem to have in the NHS now. I looked up the figures and, over the past Jeremy Hunt: I can be honest with the hon. Gentleman five years that I was doing the job, in the first year I gave and say that I regret not being able to build lots of the NHS £300 million to avoid a winter crisis; in the hospitals around the country in that period, because second year, £400 million; in the third year, £700 million; funding was short. Now, however, we are in a different in the fourth year, £400 million; and in the fifth year, situation. It is important that we build these extra £400 million. In four of those five years, we still had a hospitals, but there will be some big challenges in ensuring winter crisis. That is because in the end it is not about that we do so. money as much as it is about capacity. Dr Whitford: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for 3.30 pm giving way. I welcome his suggestion of a central design If we do not have the additional doctors and nurses team, because the NHS is over 70 years old and we seem available to provide the care that we want to be provided, repeatedly to reinvent the wheel. Does he recognise that money will disappear very quickly and we will not see it is not just about building new hospitals, because any benefit for it. If we want to get back to those waiting maintenance has also been allowed to slide? There are time standards—and no one would want to do that leaking roofs and leaking sewers, and patients are still in more than I do—we have to look at the issue of capacity, hospitals that are basically not fit for use. Maintenance and in two areas in particular. is most urgent. First, are we actually training enough additional doctors and nurses? I introduced some big increases—a Jeremy Hunt: I agree with the hon. Lady.Maintenance 25% increase in doctors being trained—and of course is a big issue in many hospitals. A number of hospitals because it takes seven years to train a doctor, they will are still essentially prefab buildings that should have not start to come through until towards the end of this been torn down a long time ago, and there are others Parliament. The Government have announced a big where maintenance can solve the problem. I think we increase in the number of nurses that they want to have to attack all of that, and I welcome the fact that recruit, but training new nurses takes three years. Looking there is a real commitment from the Government to at whether those numbers are right will be absolutely do so. essential if we are to break the cycle of winter crises. Finally, I want to talk about new clause 4, which Essential to that is to ensure that we have an independent relates to whether the Government are giving enough to estimate of the number of doctors, nurses, physiotherapists the NHS to meet the current waiting time targets for and allied health professionals that the NHS actually elective care, A&E, cancer and so on. I welcome the needs and a Government who sign up to training those Opposition’s focus on this matter, because the public numbers. 231 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 232

If that number is the result of a negotiation between Pete Wishart: I wonder whether, like me, my hon. the Treasury and DHSC, the Treasury will negotiate Friend feels that this English Parliament is actually those numbers down because it always sees training pretty similar to the usual Westminster Parliament that more doctors and nurses as building up a cost pressure we do all our business in. Does he agree that the English for the future. Actually, it is the opposite: if we do not votes for English laws procedure has been about the train enough doctors and nurses, the NHS ends up most divisive, disruptive and useless procedure ever put having to pay extortionate agency rates and locum into this House? It makes distinctions between classes doctor rates, and it ends up costing the NHS more. I of Members of Parliament in this House, and what we would like an answer to the question of whether we are are doing today is disallowing us to vote on issues that even now training enough doctors and nurses, and I are vital to the Scottish health service. Does he agree would like to know what the NHS actually believes is that it is a disgrace, and that it must go? the answer to that question. I would also like to know that the Government are committed to doing that, and Patrick Grady: Yes; I absolutely agree. My hon. Friend I very much hope that when we have the people plan, is right: I barely noticed the difference as this place there will be an independently audited projection of the magically transformed itself into the Legislative Grand number of doctors and nurses required. Committee (England). Incidentally,I do not know whether The final point I wanted to make is about— he remembers, from his time here, whether the Scottish Grand Committee was ever permitted to meet in the Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): The third final Chamber of the House of Commons. I fear it was not, point. so quite why the English Grand Committee enjoys that privilege and does not have to meet elsewhere in the building or elsewhere in England is kind of beyond me. Jeremy Hunt: It was always the final point, and it is But my hon. Friend is right that those of us from seats very much the final point. in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland are, for the The other area that is essential for capacity is the social first time, being actively excluded from the opportunity care system. My hon. Friend the Member for Ruislip, to vote on amendments. Northwood and Pinner (David Simmonds) talked about The right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark how money can be wasted. One of the biggest wastes of Tami) may also have been a member of the Procedure money is that we pay for people to be in hospital beds, Committee back in the day; I certainly seem to remember which cost three times as much as care home beds, points about the cross-border hospitals being raised. He because we do not have the capacity in the social care has constituents in Wales who use hospitals in England system. It is very important that we encourage people to that will be affected by this legislation, and he is unable save for the future and protect people against losing to vote on or amend those provisions. their homes, but if we want to see a change in the NHS in the next five years it is fundamental that we increase the ability of local authorities to deliver adult social Neil Gray (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP): My hon. Friend’s care to people who cannot afford it. At the moment, secondment to the English Parliament is going rather they do not have enough to do that, and we must put well so far, although it is rather similar to the UK one. that right. Does it not distil the ridiculousness of the EVEL procedure that we have before us a Bill that clearly impacts on the funding of the NHS in Scotland, as the former Secretary Patrick Grady: Finally, here we are, in the English of State mentioned, and yet the Government have put Parliament after all these years. Isn’t it great? The Mace the Chair in the invidious position of deciding on the is down, the signs are up, and the dream of David issues that we can or cannot vote on, instead of our Cameron has finally been realised. For the first time making that decision about the issues that are important since 1707, English Members of Parliament will get to to our constituents? vote on English legislation to the active exclusion of the rest of us. I wonder if the Minister could have even dreamed, when he and I were but lowly Back-Bench Patrick Grady: My hon. Friend is absolutely right; and members of the Procedure Committee back in 2015 and we raised those points five years ago, when the EVEL scrutinising the EVEL processes, that this is where we process was being introduced. would end up today. Mark Tami: I have never been a member of the On 19 September 2014 David Cameron promised, in Procedure Committee. The Countess of Chester, which response to the independence referendum in Scotland, is a foundation hospital, has trustees who are elected that we would have English votes for English laws. from Wales. They are elected and can take part in Three general elections, two Prime Ministers and countless decision making, but as an elected representative in this Leaders of the House later, here it is in all its glory. I place, I cannot, apparently. wonder, given the responses and speeches that we have heard today, whether anyone on the Government Benches really understands what is going on. We are debating Patrick Grady: There we go. We have now had as clauses and amendments to a Bill that has been certified many Welsh and Scottish Members contributing from as being only relevant to England, but as the amendment the Floor, as Members from elsewhere in the United themselves demonstrate, and as we have heard in speeches, Kingdom. These points were raised back in the day, on it will have implications for health spending policy the Procedure Committee, even if it was not the hon. across the whole of the United Kingdom—and very Gentleman who gave that evidence. serious issues, too—for mental health, for the construction This morning, the Prime Minister turned up at the of hospitals, and for the difference between capital and Science Museum in London to launch a conference that revenue spending on the NHS. is taking place in Glasgow. That probably tells us all we 233 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 234 need to know about the Government’s concept of how Barnett consequentials would be expected to fall to the the United Kingdom works. Four days after the UK Scottish block grant, so it is well within the interests of leaves the European Union, and the Tory Government Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland choose to display their love for the precious Union on to seek to amend this Bill. Our own unselectable suggestions these islands by creating two classes of Member in the that appear on the amendment paper require analysis of House of Commons—those who can amend legislation what would happen if health spending per capita in and those who cannot. Well, as the Chair of the Health England and Wales was raised to the level in Scotland. Committee asked us to say, “Thank you.” Thank you so That was part of our manifesto commitment; by raising much, because the polls are showing that support for health spending in England, we would also raise spending independence in Scotland has reached 52% and growing, across the United Kingdom. But here and now, on the and that support will not go away. Constituents in Floor of the House of Commons, in the UK Parliament, Scotland will be watching today’s proceedings, wanting that idea cannot be tested, voted on or even, technically, to know why their Members of Parliament are not discussed. allowed to vote on amendments that could increase health spending, not just here in England but throughout Dr Whitford: Does my hon. Friend agree that “per the United Kingdom. capita” is a much more informative way of describing Labour’s new clause 5 rightly calls for the Government spending, because demand is increasingly rapidly, with to analyse the effect of inflation on the figures set out in an ageing population that is not ageing healthily, and the Bill. just talking about the headline numbers does not show whether the amount provided for each person is sufficient Dr Whitford: Does my hon. Friend agree that, as I to provide their services? mentioned earlier, the fact that inflation could make these cash rises meaningless makes it very difficult for Patrick Grady: I thank my hon. Friend for that. The the Scottish Government to predict what Barnett contributions she is making demonstrate precisely why consequentials they can count on in 2023 and 2024, so Members from Scotland should have been allowed to it should be committed to in real terms, not just cash terms? participate fully in this stage of the Bill and the whole process. Patrick Grady: Yes; my hon. Friend is absolutely right, If the official Opposition choose to press any of their and we would be very happy to support new clause 5 if amendments this afternoon, we will seek to express our the procedures of the House allowed us to. It is absolutely views, on behalf of our constituents, by walking through crucial to what the Bill is trying to achieve. the Lobby. We will walk past the signs that say, “England We know it is a showpiece Bill anyway, but the only” and if the Tellers from the Government Whips Government are getting a showpiece English Parliament team choose not to count us, that will be their decision. out of it as well. Of course, the terms of the money Of course they will also have to discount any of their resolution are so restrictive that amendments intended own colleagues from Scotland and Wales who deliberately to amend the figures in the Bill are completely out of or accidentally end up in the Lobby; perhaps that is also order. The Labour party tried that—that point was raised an argument for getting rid of this ridiculous voting by more than one Opposition Member at Second Reading, Lobby system, but I appreciate that that is for another day. and I am not sure that Ministers could answer it. The Government could have avoided this situation, Labour’s amendment 3 prevents capital funding from by allowing proper time for a Report stage, where being transferred to revenue streams. That is hugely Members from Scotland and elsewhere could move important as well, because any increases in the revenue amendments. They could have committed the Bill upstairs funding—the figures on the face of the Bill—have to to a Public Bill Committee, but they chose to convene come from new money. Otherwise, the whole thing is an English Parliament here in the Chamber of the House pointless: it is just shuffling things around. It is new money of Commons, which is supposed to represent the whole that would give rise to Barnett consequentials, and that of the UK. is where our interest comes in. New clause 4, on performance targets, makes exactly Pete Wishart: My hon. Friend has taken over the the same point, and we support that as well. That is also EVEL mantle with great aplomb. I understand that the relevant to us. “England only” signs are already in the Lobby, and this in the UK Parliament of Great Britain and Northern Dr Whitford: It is often cast up here that the Government Ireland! What does that say to people from Scotland? in Scotland are not spending all the Barnett consequentials What does it say, given that this Bill determines so much on health, but they do. The problem is that although the of our health spending in Scotland? Surely the days of Government here keep talking about the rise they are EVEL have to come to an end. We cannot go on like giving to the NHS, there are cuts to public health and this. This is the Parliament for everybody across the social care, and there have been cuts to education and United Kingdom; it is not their Parliament to squat in. training. In Scotland, we still take the whole responsibility of a health Department seriously. Patrick Grady: It really does not feel like that at the moment, does it? Hear no EVEL, see no EVEL, speak Patrick Grady: My hon. Friend is absolutely right on no EVEL should be the mantra, because my hon. Friend that. The Scottish National party has always pledged—we is right; this might not be the last time. have done this throughout our time in government—that any Barnett consequentials that arise from health spending Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and in England get passed to the NHS in Scotland. Any Strathspey) (SNP): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for time the figures set out in this Bill increase, those allowing me to speak in the English Parliament for the 235 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 236

[Drew Hendry] thing to measure, but it seems to me that if we really mean parity, we should look at not only at the inputs—the first time. Does he agree that one way to get around this money we put into the system—but the outputs. Are we whole EVEL conundrum is simply for the English seeing an improvement in access to mental health services? Parliament to be made officially an English Parliament Are we seeing fewer people not being referred with the and then we can all have our own national Parliaments speed that they and the system expect? What outputs in our own countries? should we look for, and should they not be measured in some way in an annual statement? The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame New clause 9 would go further than the Opposition Rosie Winterton): Order.I am sure colleagues will appreciate amendment, which looks to measure inputs and money, that it is important that we actually talk about the Bill. and would require the Government to do something Patrick Grady: I wholeheartedly agree, Dame Rosie. I broader and ultimately more meaningful to the British have addressed the amendments that we have an interest people, whichever quarter of the United Kingdom they in, and I am contextualising why they are relevant to come from. our constituents, but points are being extremely well Dr Whitford: We have discussed today, and on many made by my colleagues. There is a simple solution to other occasions, the issues relating to child and adolescent this, which we in the SNP have been promoting for mental health and the pressure that young people are 84 years, since 1934: Scotland can become an independent under right across the UK, and training for teachers to country and England can have the Parliament that it support them in schools was mentioned. In Scotland, wants. As my hon. Friend the Member for Airdrie and we are putting 350 counsellors into schools. Does the Shotts (Neil Gray) says, with the greatest respect for the hon. Lady recognise that putting that level of investment Speaker, it should not be for the Chair or for the into education, where these young people are, would Government to decide what does and does not apply to reduce the pressure on CAMHS, and that any assessment Members from different parts of the UK. My job and would need to include that? If children end up in that of my colleagues is to look at each measure before CAMHS who do not need to be there and who could this House and determine for ourselves whether it is have been helped earlier, that is also a failure. relevant to our constituents and act accordingly. Today, we are being actively prevented from doing that. There are Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Lady makes an apposite amendments and new clauses on the amendment paper and correct point. We cannot talk about mental health that we deem to be of interest to people in Scotland, just within the health and care bucket, so to speak. which would take forward commitments in our manifesto, What do we do to help young mums? What do we do in but we will not be able to vote for them. That is not a the school environment for youngsters, who are increasingly precious Union. That is not a partnership of equals. put under huge pressure, with cases of stress and depression That is not leading instead of leaving. It is not something growing daily? What are we doing in the workplace? that is going to be sustainable for much longer, and Historically, mental health has been something that we 52% of people in Scotland seem inclined to agree. do not talk about; indeed, people almost dare not to for fear of being demoted and losing their job. There are Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I rise to many aspects of mental health that need to be taken speak to new clause 9, tabled in my name and those of into account if we are truly to deliver parity of esteem. I the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford) would like to think that the Government, and perhaps and my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne the Minister when he responds to the debate, would (Sir Charles Walker). I am pleased that Scotland will have acknowledge the breadth of the need to work together its say, at least with regard to this new clause. across Government Departments so that we look properly Conceptually, the Bill will absolutely do the right at the outcomes and at the different pieces that affect thing, because for long-term decision making we need those outcomes, which go well beyond the Minister’s some clarity as to how much money there will be. As I particular brief. said on Second Reading, my concern is about whether or not the figures are right, and at that point I proposed Dr Poulter: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. a formula that would enable the figures to be flexed to She is making some very good points. An interesting properly determine the need and whether the figure amendment has been tabled by the hon. Member for would to be sufficient to meet it. Twickenham (Munira Wilson) on the need for greater transparency more generally in mental health funding. New clause 9 deals specifically with the issue of It is difficult to understand properly what level of mental health. There is agreement among all parties investment is currently going into mental health services, that it is crucial that we get mental health right. It is be it CAMHS or general adult mental health services. crucial that it is properly respected and properly resourced. Would it not be a good thing if the Government took Members from all parties have talked about and supported on board the spirit of that amendment and published parity of esteem between physical health and mental data on mental health spend on an annual basis across health. It might be useful—this is not in the new clause, all mental health services, from CAMHS and general but we are talking about the issue more broadly—if at adult to older adult and learning disability services? some point the Government could give some clarity on, That would help to make the argument that money is if not a formal definition of, what parity of esteem means. actually going into what has been a Cinderella service for far too long. 3.45 pm Parity of esteem is not as simple as how much we Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend is right in that spend on physical health and how much we spend on the things that are relevant to mental health cannot mental health. That is clearly a guide and an easier exclude the budgets in other parts of the system. He is 237 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 238 absolutely right, as the hon. Member for Twickenham beyond the scope of this debate to look at it now. The (Munira Wilson) is, that these things need to be looked point was well made, but it is a much bigger point for at together. Yes, I certainly agree that a written report another day. that sets out what money is being spent where would be Through new clause 9, I am asking for an annual very welcome, but I guess that my amendment goes report that would show how mental health provision beyond that and says that we should be sure that we are has improved. Such a report would state how we identified getting something for that money, rather than simply what we included in the mental health bucket that I putting in that money and not having any grasp as to mentioned; how we identified who is in need; how we whether it is actually making a difference, which is measured whether that individual received an intervention, crucial. and whether any such intervention was timely; whether the individual’s condition has improved or got better; John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): I should like to and how any improvement has been assessed, because reinforce that point. I in my constituency, as she in hers that can be a very difficult question. I appreciate that no doubt, have need that should be tackled and that for many individuals with mental health concerns, these requires support and treatment, but it is important that are lifelong conditions. We would therefore not simply it is worthwhile treatment under the right protocol so be measuring whether somebody is “cured”, but looking that things get better.I would value much more information at the level of improvement and the extent to which the on who is being treated and whether the treatment is intervention has helped—or not helped—that particular working rather than more information on money. individual. It is very complicated. My new clause would require the Government to Anne Marie Morris: That point is extremely well look specifically at how we are going to measure the made. Let me say, if I may, that there is also a challenge extent to which we have been able to prevent mental for any Government to be able to properly ascertain health problems. Specifically, we need to start looking what the actual need is. There is a lot of hidden need. In at the support we give in schools, to pregnant mothers rural communities such as mine, the real challenge lies and in many other situations. This provision would also with isolated elderly people and with lone workers—whether require information on how we have diagnosed mental it be a farmer or a policeman. We know that farmers health problems. Too often in constituents’ cases, I find have the highest rate of suicide of any profession. Much that it is only when a diagnosis is finally and formally of that mental health challenge is not understood or made that there is any intervention or help. I have heard measured, which makes it critical that we look at that from a number of parents of young children and teenagers need and then, as my right hon. Friend sets out, make who have faced problems such as eating disorders and sure that what we do properly meets that need. He is attempted suicide, but much to my concern and that of absolutely right. the parents, as no diagnosis has yet been made—because they cannot get an appointment and so on—the individual Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I agree with the youngster who is self-harming is not yet considered to hon. Lady’s point about measuring outputs as well as have a mental health problem. The consequence is that inputs, but does she agree that one of the big challenges they do not get the support and assistance they need, so with CAMHS is the real dearth of data? There are diagnosis is very important. many gaps in the data that is collected. I make this point advisedly, because there is another challenge in gathering Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con): I support what my more data. I have been lobbied in my own constituency hon. Friend is saying in her new clause about outputs. by a charity supporting children and young people with This is an issue that I tried to address—and failed, I mental health issues. Its funding has been put under readily admit—when I was the primary care Minister. threat by NHS England unless it starts to report the She will be aware of the NCT’s Hidden Half campaign, date of birth of the young people accessing its service which aims to improve the six-week postnatal check. and other information, which then undermines the Does she agree that there are opportunities for the NHS anonymity that it guarantees to those children and young to make an intervention and assessment, but that those people, so reporting on the outputs is not actually that opportunities are currently missed? For example, we straightforward. should be changing the GP contract so that when new mums go for the six-week check with their babies, they Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Lady makes a very get a maternal mental health check at the same time. good point—I think there are probably two points There are already opportunities, but we are missing them. there. The first is what we should be measuring and when, and the second is about data and the privacy issue. The points are related, but separate. The first one, Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend makes an excellent which is about measurement, is a point very well made. point. Just like physical health checks, which are very Certainly, the point at which my constituents are counted much part of the standard GP system, mental health as being in the box and in need and being referred for checks should equally be a part of the standard checks mental health can be very far down the line from their that take place when people present at surgeries. I entirely first presentation. The figures will often not properly agree. represent the number of people who are actually in need, so I think she is right that we need to be clear at Dr Whitford: Does the hon. Member recognise that what point we measure an individual coming into the we all know what we should be doing to look after our system. I am not clear from what I have heard anecdotally physical health—there is a handful of five key points—but that it is. Some clarity and perhaps an investigation into that most of us have no idea what we should be doing to that would be very helpful. The hon. Lady’s point about look after our mental health? As well as talking about privacy is a much broader issue, and I think it would be primary care in schools and workplaces and public 239 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 240

[Dr Whitford] Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op): I rise to speak to the amendments in my name and the campaigns, we should all be being taught how to develop names of my colleagues. our own resilience and how to look after our own mental As we have all heard, our NHS needs to be properly health better. resourced in both physical and mental health, but far too often patients are losing out under this Government, Anne Marie Morris: That is one of the best points with longer waiting times, a huge increase in cancelled that I have heard in this debate, and it is extremely well operations, and crumbling hospitals. Colleagues have made. However, it is a real challenge trying to help already raised these important issues.I urge the Government individuals to accept even that they might be vulnerable to accept the amendments in the name of the Leader of to mental health problems, because it has been such a the Opposition as a real signal of their intent to reverse taboo—let alone the second stage of learning what we the damage that their party has done to our national can do to try, as the hon. Lady says, to make ourselves health service over the past 10 years. resilient. I am pleased that we are having mindfulness My amendments focus specifically on mental health. classes across the House, not just for MPs but for our The Government have made much of the need to ensure researchers. That is not the total solution, but it is at parity of esteem. This would mean us valuing mental least a step in the right direction. However, her point is health equally with physical health and adopting an about something much bigger than just an intervention—it approach that tackles it using the same standards that relates to a big piece missing from this whole agenda. we expect for physical health patient treatment as a We spend a lot of time talking about illness and not template for treatment that we provide for mental health enough time talking about wellness. patients. 4 pm I have heard warm words from the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and Ministers about the importance Dr Whitford: Is it not particular to mental health that of mental health and the growing need to tackle mental when we use the phrase “mental health” we actually ill health as an urgent priority, but I have not yet seen mean illness? We all have mental health, sometimes that wholehearted commitment manifest itself in actions good and sometimes bad. If we changed the language, to tackle the situation we are in. The British Medical it might be easier for people to talk about. Association found that the mental health workforce has had little growth over the last 10 years. The Royal Anne Marie Morris: The hon. Lady is absolutely College of Psychiatrists found that the rate of unfilled right. The challenge, as she recognises, is how we change NHS consultant psychiatrist posts in England has doubled the language in a way that is accepted and becomes the in the last six years. The first briefing paper from the norm. Part of this is having a much greater focus, as I Centre for Mental Health’s Commission for Equality in hope the Secretary of State and his team ultimately will, Mental Health found that mental health inequalities are on wellness, because that is absolutely as important as closely linked to wider injustices in society. Far too dealing with the illness when it happens. many patients with a mental illness are still being sent We need to remember that in terms of stages of hundreds of miles away from home. intervention, the whole lifecycle is not just about birth, By accepting the amendments in my name, the education and the workplace; it is also about the elderly Government would show that they are willing to be and veterans, for whom there is often not as much done transparent about the way they go about achieving their to identify need and provide support. An older person long-stated aim of parity of esteem. The Government in a rural area will often have the need but because they have already shown, with the presentation of this Bill, are simply out of scope—under the radar—they will, that they think it is a good idea to commit, in law, to a for a very long time, suffer in silence to a point beyond minimum allotment that the Secretary of State will which they cannot be helped. The challenge of mental make to the health service in England in each financial wellness/illness for older people needs to be a specific year for the next four years. That is designed to show focus. that their promise is legally binding and can be scrutinised For all that we say, and rightly, about the importance by Parliament and the public if they do not reach those of ensuring that our veterans are properly diagnosed targets. and properly supported, I am certainly conscious of To ensure that our mental health services are properly veterans in my constituency who are struggling to get resourced and truly responsive to the various complex help and support, or even an initial diagnosis. Sometimes conditions that people present with, the public need to the support they need is so complex that they can only know how much is being spent, including how much is get it in London. For somebody who does not have being proposed, and what happens in practice. That is good mental health, the journey from Devon right the all my amendments seek to do—they would provide way up to London is something they simply cannot conceive Parliament and the public with the opportunity to of and make a reality. compare the proposed allotment with the final allotment I am extremely grateful to the Minister for sitting and across different years. listening to my thoughts, and for understanding my Of course, that is not enough, and it is clear that approach in terms of looking at this in a much more additional resources for mental health services are only holistic way and seeing how we might measure and one part of the answer to tackling the mental health report on it so that we can demonstrate to people that problems in this country. We know that education and we are making progress on parity of esteem. We should training services are essential to bring about the necessary look at inputs as well as outputs. I look forward with a increase in the workforce. Weknow that local government great deal of interest to his reply on the points that have provides significant elements of mental health support been made, particularly on outputs in mental health. through public health, youth services, housing and social 241 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 242 care, and two thirds of schools fund their own mental Hitchin called Dr Louise Chapman, and it does what it health support. We also know that the Government’s says on the tin: it is about growing resilience in mental roll-out of universal credit will exacerbate mental health health. inequalities, which all too often relate to people’seconomic As politicians, when it comes to legislation or speaking and social circumstances. This is not the time to go into to each other in the Chamber or outside, we think often those in detail, but I urge the Government to remember about pounds and pence and talk about structures such the need for those essential services to have a long-term as hospitals and stuff that can be measured in a very funding settlement and, in the case of social care, an easy way, or at least what we think is an easy way. agreed basis for future financing. With ambitious targets However, growing resilience is one of the things we need to meet in the long-term plan, there is a risk that to ensure the NHS does more effectively. Not just in resources will be diverted from other areas of mental mental health, but particularly in mental health, growing health support to achieve compliance. resilience in our young people is an integral part of I would like to invite colleagues across the House to prevention. The former Secretary of State, my right join me on Thursday for my adjournment debate on hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Children’s Mental Health Week, which is this week, to Hunt), talked about that in his speech, saying that half discuss these issues further. I know what a commitment of mental health problems are established before a young to transparency on mental health spending would mean person is 14. for all those suffering mental ill health and those fighting We need to grow resilience among young people to for them. I hope that the Secretary of State will accept future-proof each and every one of us,and our communities amendment 1 and new clause 1, to ensure that mental and our society, against serious mental health problems health services get a fair deal from the legislation and in the future, at the same time as investing in mental that pledges made by the Government and NHS England health services such as CAMHS, which has already are realised in practice. been mentioned several times in this debate. However, we need to do both: to grow resilience and to improve Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): It is a the institutional frameworks.Again, that is what the money pleasure to speak in this debate, because it is a rare one this Bill is providing will go towards. in so far as there is quite a lot of agreement across the Another charity is called Tilehouse Counselling, which Committee on the substance of it. There appears to be again is based in Hitchin. I do not mean to say that agreement—I await an intervention if anybody disagrees Hitchin has all the charities in my constituency, but in with this—that increasing funding for the NHS is a good this area Hitchin is a real regional leader and, indeed, a thing, that it is good that mental health is a Government national leader.Tilehouse Counselling provides counselling priority and that it is very important to establish what services to young people, and young people often find parity of esteem means in practical terms. themselves at Tilehouse when CAMHS does not have I would like to take this opportunity to describe what the capacity. I have seen in my constituency in terms of the importance I urge the Under-Secretary of State for Health and of mental health and how the increased funding will Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid make a practical difference. One way in which the Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), who is on the Treasury funding will make a difference is with mental health Bench—she knows this because everybody knows how support teams. There are mental health support teams much she cares about the NHS, how much she knows in 25 areas in the country. Hertfordshire was picked as about it and her own personal experience in it as a one of those 25 areas, and we have two teams—one in professional—to use the money provided by this Bill to my constituency, and one just outside it—that effectively increase the workforce and to improve the state of piloted a hub-and-spoke model. As the hon. Member CAMHS so that it can treat more people. Again, that for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Preet Kaur Gill) said, it is means helping the mental health hubs to work with Children’s Mental Health Week, and the aim of that young people and the education system to improve model is to ensure that young people get better mental prevention and, when mental health intervention is health support in and around their school, working in needed later on if things have got more serious, making conjunction with the NHS. sure that CAMHS has more capacity. Again, the money As I have seen in my constituency and everywhere I in this Bill will help to provide that. go, when I speak to young people, one of the first things Another new organisation in my constituency is called they ask me is, “How can we improve mental health?” GoVox. It has already been in discussions with NHS Whenever I have spoken to young people, their teachers Digital, and NHSX, about online ways of improving or local NHS staff, they say this model has the potential, mental health for young people. Increasing funding as it is rolled out and developed over the coming months matters, and it is always worth stating and restating in and years, to make a real, fundamental difference. If the Bill that these are minimum numbers, not maximum people are looking for the practical impact of our numbers. This money is hugely needed, and it should increased funding for mental health, these teams are make a big practical difference. one way in which we are already starting to make a On the pleas from Opposition Members—in relation difference, not just in my constituency but across the to new clauses 1, 2 and 9, and a few others, which say country. that the Government must report on this or must do I would like to mention a couple of charities I am that—I urge the Minister for Health to commit in his involved with that are starting to work in an integrated response to showing how he and the Government will way with the NHS in improving young people’s mental improve the existing reporting procedures and mechanisms health. There is a charity called GRIT—a word in so that the House can be kept fully informed. My right politics that we should all remember—or Growing hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) Resilience in Teens. It was set up by a fantastic doctor in spoke about how Members of Parliament often feel 243 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 244

[Bim Afolami] thing in this important area, given that a number of welcome commitments have been made about CAMHS distant, not from information about funding, but from spending. outcomes. Will the Minister explain how the Government There are concerns that that funding is not reaching could improve that delivery mechanism, as that would the frontline. Indeed, the evidence is clear. Just last allay some concerns across the Committee? week a report by the Children’s Commissioner stated that many CCGs are spending less than 1% of their 4.15 pm mental health budget on children and young people. In New clause 10 is fairly ridiculous as it is a rehash of 2017, the CQC revealed that CCGs have prioritised the argument that we had at the back end of last adult mental health over CAMHS because of the need year—[Interruption.] It has not been selected. You agree to ration services. Other amendments seek to talk about with me, Dame Rosie, so I do not need to talk about mental health more broadly, but that is the reason why how ridiculous it is. [Interruption.] Forgive me. Dame we need a particular spotlight on children and young Rosie has no view, and it is important to put that on the people’s services. record. The phrasing of new clause 2 seeks to ensure In the context of the Bill, we must remember what we accountability against the ambitions of the long-term are here for. I speak with generosity to Labour Members plan. Subsection (2) would help to demonstrate whether who I know care deeply about the NHS, but we are not the promises on the growth of CAMHS spending here to try to score points; we are here to improve the outstripping mental health spending, and NHS spending state of our NHS. Everybody recognises that this is a across the board, are kept. good Bill, yet many of the amendments appear designed Subsection (3) shines a spotlight on regional variability. to create some sort of artificial dividing line between The Children’s Commissioner’s report last week talked Members on this side of the Committee and that side, about the enormous postcode lottery of spending on regarding who cares the most about the NHS or mental services. The numbers cited were staggering. In terms of health. I urge all hon. Members to remember that the low-level services, they ranged from 72p in some areas purpose of this Bill is to increase funding to our NHS to £172 per child. On specialist services, they ranged and improve our mental health services, and I therefore from £14 to £191. We all expect some level of variation, do not support the amendments. but I am sure the Government would agree that that level of variation is utterly unacceptable. It needs to be Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD): I wish to speak tracked very publicly, so that spending and services can to new clause 2, which is tabled in my name and those of be improved to meet need. my Liberal Democrat colleagues. As you know, Dame Why is that so critical? As has been stated by various Rosie, I intended to push the new clause to a vote, but I Members,half of all mental health problems are established understand that time pressures will not allow me to do by the age of 14. We know that 1.25 million children so. I am disappointed by that, but I will be pressing the and young people had a mental health disorder in 2017. Government on this issue time and again. I want them We have heard that since 2010 there has been an increase to make it a high priority and to put it at the forefront of 330% in admissions to A&E of children and young of their policy making and commitments to the mental people diagnosed with a psychiatric condition. We know health of children and young people. that only one in four children and young people is being It is a pleasure to hear such a unified voice across the seen by a specialist when they need to. Committee about the importance of mental health, and It is very easy to cite statistics, but behind them are there is a clear commitment to parity of esteem and to individuals: children and young people and their stories. ensuring that mental health across the board gets the The stories I have heard are of teenagers self-harming, funding it deserves. I am therefore encouraged by the teenagers who are suicidal, teenagers who are a danger amendments, many of which I and my colleagues will to themselves and their families, and young people who support. are excluded from school or are taking themselves out New clause 2 focuses specifically on the crisis—I used of school because of their mental health conditions. that word advisedly—in the provision of child and One piece of correspondence I received from a parent adolescent mental health services. It places a spotlight talked about her 17-year-old being referred for specialist on the chronic underfunding of CAMHS, and seeks treatment last November. He might be assessed, if he is to encourage the Government and NHS England to lucky, in March and he will not get treatment for four to deliver on their promises and improve transparency and six months after that. That cannot be right. This child accountability on those priorities. has at times been suicidal. I have also had a case of a Before I arrived in this place, I was aware of this 10-year-old with tier 3 needs waiting a similar amount significant and pressing issue. Less than two months of time for the initial choice assessment, who will be since my election, however, I am utterly horrified by the waiting a similar amount of time again for treatment. cases of children and young people in crisis that cross We have had many plans, many vision documents my desk on a weekly basis—or more often—either and many strategies setting out wonderful lofty ambitions through my surgery, my inbox, or anecdotally when for the NHS. As I said, the long-term plan has some speaking to acquaintances and contacts in my constituency very laudable commitments on CAMHS. The Bill seeks and well beyond. New clause 2 seeks to make the to put into law what the Government promise on NHS Government and NHS England more accountable for spending. New clause 3 simply seeks to put into law the the funding that they provide annually to CAMHS. Government’s promises on spending on children and That is very much in the spirit of the Bill. The Government young people’s mental health disorders. I cannot press are seeking to codify their promised expenditure on the new clause 3 to a Division, but I very much hope that NHS, and the new clause seeks simply to do the same the Government will accept the spirit of my new clause 245 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 246 and look to see what measures they can put in place to ensuring that there is equality of access to health services improve transparency and accountability. We owe it to across our communities. Of course, the NHS has always those children and young people, because this really is a been about need. Funding in the NHS should follow crisis and they need us to step up to the plate. need. I will end my remarks with a quote from the mother I will not delay the House too much with further of the 17-year-old I referred to earlier, because she puts discussion of the situation in my constituency because I it far better than I could: believe that my CCGs, after six years of debating this “All these young people are our future and if we do not help issue, have had another thought about how they might them now, we are looking at a bleak future as these young people resolve the problem. It will require more Government will end up being isolated from society, lack skills for work and funding, but they have already made it clear that the relationships, find employment hard, perhaps even get into crime proposal that is currently on the table will also require and ultimately will end up not having fulfilled lives and maybe more Government funding. It will provide a fantastic end up being yet another statistic. We have not got this right and opportunity for us to resolve this situation, which has it is not just about the budgets or party politics; we need all of you to work together on this and treat this as an emergency.” been ongoing for so long. So, if the Minister is listening to pleas for more capital funding, may I ask that we Lucy Allan (Telford) (Con): What a pleasure it has complete the proposal in Telford, which will be of such been to listen to so many excellent speeches. In particular, value to our community? I want to say how much I value the contribution of the There are other learning points that come from the former Secretary of State for Health, my right hon. Friend capital investment programme. CCGs and health trusts the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt)—I have a duty—indeed, the Secretary of State has a statutory am sure that Ministers will have listened to what he duty—to narrow health inequalities. We see that across said. I thank everybody who has tabled amendments, the country where there have been controversial which are very thoughtful and well considered. I am reconfigurations of local hospital trusts and hospital particularly grateful for the amendment on patient safety, builds. It is not just in Shropshire either; many MPs on and again, I am sure that Ministers will have heard what both sides of the House have spoken of the need to has been said on that issue. narrow health inequalities and to ensure that more It is a pleasure to speak in a debate where we are affluent communities do not benefit at the expense of not politicising something that matters so much to more disadvantaged ones. This new Government could our constituents and where we are coming together to not tolerate that continuing in areas of disadvantage. contribute our experiences, either in our constituencies or professionally. For that reason, I am delighted to be 4.30 pm speaking. My third and final point is another that many colleagues I do not support the amendments, however well on both sides of the House have made already.The CCGs, intentioned, well formulated and well thought out many which make these decisions on behalf of communities, of them are. However, I would like to speak to the are accountable to no one and, regrettably, take no amendment on capital budgets because there are some notice of what local communities say.They might conduct learning opportunities for the Government in how they a consultation, as with the Shropshire reconfiguration, spend significant capital investment on hospitals, upgrades but they take no notice of what local people say. They and reconfigurations of hospital services. Those upgrades certainly take no notice of local representatives—of the and reconfigurations are indeed happening now, as was MPs and local councils—and sometimes they appear set out in the manifesto, but they were also happening disinclined to take much notice of the Secretary of before that. My constituency and the county of Shropshire State. I am very grateful to him for spending a great deal have experienced significant capital investment, but there of time trying to resolve this issue, although the CCG has been a very difficult, painful and protracted process was not particularly impressed with his proposal, which in trying to bring that forward as something that will I thought was excellent and would have benefited my benefit the whole community and improve patient care community. across the county. CCGs often operate as if they were directors of a I raise that issue because I hope that Ministers will FTSE 100 company, with all the trimmings but without take away from that experience the fact that it is the checks and balances that shareholders provide.Without fundamentally wrong to have significant capital investment accountability we see abuses of power, conflicts of where local communities are pitched against one another, interest and a failure to serve local communities. It is as has happened in Shropshire. We saw local CCGs almost impossible to remove a non-performing chief propose that Telford should lose all its acute services executive or board, and in any event they just pop up and be stripped of its A&E and women and children’s somewhereelsewiththeirgoldenhandshakeandgold-plated services, with them being transferred to another community pension still intact. some 20 miles away that is significantly more affluent I genuinely believe that we now have a window of and has better health outcomes.In addition, it was intended opportunity to solve the Shropshire reconfiguration, that that community would also receive £312 million of and I deeply hope that Ministers can help us to bring it capital investment in new facilities. I am sure that hon. to a long overdue conclusion. If we can learn anything Members can imagine how that would make our from our experience, it is that we have a decision-making community feel, particularly when it is disadvantaged in structure in the NHS that does not serve the communities many respects. It is a growing new town that will have it is intended to serve and which is not accountable to 200,000 residents in the next 10 years. We have to us, and if it is not unaccountable to MPs, to local provide services with equal access for all, because as this councils or to individual residents and patients, there is Government have said, they are about one thing: levelling a problem. We need a full examination to ensure that up. They are about narrowing health inequalities and what has happened in Shropshire does not happen 247 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 248 again. I am hopeful for my constituents and neighbouring for their unwell children to be taken seriously and receive Shropshire MPs that there is a solution on the horizon, the urgent care and treatment they need, it is horrifying and one that would be a positive outcome for all our for that to be delayed. communities. At this stage I should pay tribute to my former That said, our communities should not have had to colleague Paul Williams, who was the Member of resort to crowdfunding a legal action against the CCG Parliament for Stockton South. He is a GP, and as a or the Government, or to protests, marches and petitions, member of the Health Committee he spoke extensively and they should not have had to endure six years of about health matters, but locally he took on the child uncertainty or to write thousands of letters to their MP. and adolescent mental health services. He knew, as I did As the Government embark on this welcome capital because we shared the same area, that it was taking well expenditure programme—a truly historic investment over two years for young people to be seen by CAMHS. programme that we all welcome on both sides of the As a direct result of his work, that ended, up to a point, House—I hope they will look at what has happened in because some children who were due to be seen quickly the NHS Future Fit process in Shropshire and learn the were actually seen when they should have been. However, lessons of that experience so that those mistakes are not those long waits still exist in our area. As we heard repeated. earlier from the right hon. Member for South West To conclude, I reiterate what a pleasure it is to take Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), the former Health Secretary, part in a debate where everybody is trying to get the sometimes children are just not taken seriously. best outcome for their constituents, the country and It is right for the Secretary of State to answer to the the NHS in terms of the service it delivers to all our House on exactly what the Department is doing, because constituents. this is a matter of life and death. Not only the House but the country needs assurance and answers. The state Alex Cunningham: You, Dame Eleanor, were not in of mental health services will only get worse unless we the Chamber when the hon. Member for Glasgow take action to deliver what is required. The additional North (Patrick Grady) indicated that SNP Members money is more than welcome, but I see the amendment might pass through the Lobby, although of course they as the first, necessary step to provide the funds that will not be counted. I seek your help. I want to make are so desperately needed. Equally important is the sure that the Government Whips do not get confused by ability to monitor what those funds are being spent on, my accent and count my vote on behalf of the people of and how. Stockton North when I support the amendment. There are many other services on which people depend heavily, including some that we may take for granted, The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing): such as smoking cessation services. There is widespread The hon. Gentleman asks for clarification and raises a concern about existing funding for services to help point that I have many times had cause to raise myself, people stop smoking. Nearly a third of local authorities so I am in total sympathy with him, and I am quite sure no longer provide specialist “stop smoking” services. that his plea has been heard. Stopping smoking is not just a matter of nicotine patches or vaping; people need behavioural support as well, Alex Cunningham: I am very grateful, Madam Deputy particularly pregnant women, children, and people who Speaker. are already unwell. One ward in my constituency has Amendment 2 concerns spending on mental health some of the highest incidences of smoking in families— services and the Secretary of State’s plans to achieve whole families smoking—but we also have some of the parity of esteem. Mental illness is often not viewed as highest incidences of smoking during pregnancy, and that a risk to human life, but it is exactly that. In 2018, is not good for the unborn child. according to the Samaritans, 6,507 deaths in the United We cannot afford to lose the progress that we have Kingdom were registered as suicides—an increase of made. We have made tremendous progress over the 10.9% on the previous year. That means that nearly years, but we need local services that are effective and 7,000 people did not believe that there was help, or another properly funded. The Government also need to return way out of what they were going through. to funding the multi-media approach to smoking cessation It can be hard for adults to talk about the feelings services. I was particularly pleased to learn last week that come from being mentally unwell. The words are in that research has shown that the ban on smoking in cars their vocabulary, and it may be simple enough to string when a child is present has produced a 75% drop in them together into a sentence, but it is incredibly difficult children being exposed to cigarette smoke in a car. I led to say them out loud. I can only imagine how hard it on that issue during my first few years as an MP, must be for children to express how they are feeling through private Members’ Bills and a ten-minute rule when something is not right. Perhaps they do say the Bill. The Bills were unsuccessful, but I was delighted words that are in their heads, but they are not taken when the Government adopted my clause a few years seriously. It is a scandal that there are suicidal children later. We still need to be ambitious and bold about as young as 12 who are having to wait more than two helping people to quit smoking, but services need the weeks for a mental health bed. By not viewing mental resources. I hope the Minister will commit to ensuring illness as life-threatening, we are letting generations that such services are provided, whether for mental down. health or for smoking cessation, and that they are fully There is much debate about what causes mental funded so that we can continue to make real progress in illness and what is the best form of treatment, but it can that area. take several visits to a GP for people to be taken Finally, I shall turn to the matter of capital. The seriously about not being OK—although many GPs, of Minister has already heard me talk about the needs in course, respond immediately. When parents are fighting my own constituency. In one ward—the same one I 249 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 250 referred to earlier: the Town Centre ward in Stockton—men That is a welcome aim, and I am confident that we will live 14 years less than those in the Prime Minister’s meet that target under this landmark funding commitment. constituency. His constituency is getting a new hospital, That progress is hugely welcome, and I am glad that the but there are no plans yet for us. However, I have good Government have made children and young people’s news for the Minister, because the plan for our hospital mental health a top priority within the NHS, which is is still sitting there. I met the chief executive of North halfway through a major programme to improve access Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust just two to specialist services, supported by £1.4 billion of funding. weeks ago, and she told me that they were ready to dust I congratulate the Front-Bench team and the Government off the plans again and see how we could provide a on that work. hospital. At the time we asked for £100 million from the Government as a guarantor in order to make the project 4.45 pm work. The numbers do work, and the health inequalities need to be addressed. I want to talk about some of the incidents that I have come across in Fareham over the past few months. We need to be able to attract the best doctors and Tragically, several young people took their own lives last clinicians that we can to address the problems in our year. As I said earlier, I recently met educational society. The heart problems are higher on average than professionals who are increasingly worried about how anywhere else in the country.We have smoking problems, long it is taking young people to access mental health as I have mentioned, with their related lung and respiratory support, counselling or other support through CAMHS. problems. We also have the legacy of our heavy industry Children or young people are presenting with problems on Teesside, where men who have now retired are in such as anxiety, low-level depression or self-harm, but extremely ill health but sometimes cannot get the support they are not necessarily meeting the eligibility criteria they need because we do not have the experts locally to required by CAMHS, so they are not being accepted for provide it. treatment by the services on offer. That leaves them to In my final sentences, I appeal to the Minister to meet fall into a treatment gap, which is a problem in Fareham me and the trust members so that we can sit down and and around the country. Young people are presenting talk about this project. with complex needs that do not necessarily fit into the diagnostic box, and I hope that measures are in place to The Minister for Health (Edward Argar) indicated provide more accessible lower-level care and treatment assent. to meet that demand. Alex Cunningham: I am glad that he is nodding his The other issue that young people, their families and head. Ten years ago, the Tory-Lib Dem Government teachers, and medical professionals in Fareham are cancelled the project, despite the fact that it was a reporting to me is the time it takes to get an initial priority for the country and for the national health counselling or therapy session through CAMHS. Young service, so I hope that we can now have a meeting and people sometimes have to wait months before an initial actually start to motor on this. I am pleased to see the meeting, which can have a devastating effect on someone Minister smiling, and I hope that he can leave me smiling who might be fragile or facing challenges. They may as well. end up dropping out of school, for example, but they may have stayed in school had there been some intervention, Suella Braverman (Fareham) (Con): I rise to speak in or they may increase their level of self-harm or become favour of the clauses in the Bill and against the amendments. suicidal within that timeframe. It is tragic that systemic I do not think that the latter add anything material, and challenges mean that we are unable to reach maybe the they ignore the vast improvements in mental health easier-to-treat cases in an appropriate timescale. It is under this Government in recent years. One in four incumbent upon me to highlight the challenges we are adults will experience mental health illness in their facing in Fareham, but I am glad that this funding and lifetime, and that is obviously a high incidence of mental this commitment to mental health, particularly children health illness. It shows the growing concern around this and young people’s mental health, will go towards issue as well as a growing awareness, and, I have to add, improving some of those systemic problems, such as a growing commitment by today’s Government, but we resources and waiting times. cannot ignore the fact that there are many challenges in Turning to some good news in Fareham and the the system and many areas for improvement. progress being made to address the treatment gap, I am I want to talk briefly about the Government’s record. pleased to welcome a new community support project I fully support their commitment to providing funding in Fareham and Gosport that has been set up to supplement for mental health services, which will mean that those the existing health service. It is run by the Southern services’ funding will increase faster than in other areas Health NHS Foundation Trust and the Princess Royal of the NHS. I hope that much of that funding will go Trust For Carers, and a consultation is under way to towards the frontline in teaching and education. Perhaps assess how it can focus more on day-to-day mental the Minister will address this in his closing remarks. health challenges and provide lower-level support for I meet many education professionals in Fareham who people who do not necessarily fulfil the eligibility criteria report an increase in the incidence of mental illness that I set out. That might be someone who has lost a job among their young people and finding the cost of or is facing some financial difficulty, and this support providing counselling and support an additional burden can help them to get through a troubled time and prevent on their budgets. them from deteriorating. It is important to note that by 2023-24, under the The project will support people on a one-to-one basis proposals in the Bill, at least an additional 345,000 and will serve to ease pressure on other services. It aims children and young people under 25 will be able to to nip mental health problems in the bud before they get access support via NHS-funded mental health services. worse, with a focus on prevention and on flexibility. 251 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 252

I really welcome the initiative and hope that if it is to speak against amendments 2 and 5, for the simple successful in Fareham and Gosport it will be rolled out reason that this funding, although so welcome and further afield in Hampshire. necessary in my constituency—and those of Members I also want to talk about the Southern Health NHS across the House—will be useless to my constituents Foundation Trust, which provides mental health services unless it results in improved outcomes. Rather than in Fareham. I want to update the House on the good talking about ring-fencing funding for specific things, progress that Southern Health has been making. I have we should be talking about outcomes—what they mean been campaigning for many years—in fact, it was one for our constituents, and how we make their healthcare of the first issues that hit my in-tray when I was first better. elected in 2015—about the systemic and structural problems My hon. Friends the Members for Newton Abbot endemic in the health trust, which was, frankly, failing (Anne Marie Morris) and for Hitchin and Harpenden its patients back in 2014 and 2015. Its leadership has (Bim Afolami) raised similar points. The hon. Member been overhauled and it has had huge interventions from for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) rightly NHS Improvement, as well as a lot of monitoring from drew attention to the ambitious targets in the NHS long the various regulatory bodies in relation to its history of term plan. Those are the targets that we should be treatment of people with serious mental health problems tracking ourselves against. Those are the targets that we or with disabilities, including avoidable deaths. Several should be talking about, and we should monitor whether inquests have concluded that Southern Health did bear the improved funding has enabled us to make progress blame for those deaths. against them. We should not just talk about whether to I am very glad to report that last week the CQC put a certain amount of money into a certain pot; on its reported that Southern Health trust should be rated as own, it makes no sense and will not make anyone’s life good, and that is a vast improvement on previous years. better. The main point I want to make is that we should It is a vote of confidence in the leadership team, and it focus on outcomes rather than forever tracking inputs is a real step forward in providing confidence to the that do not improve our constituents’ lives. thousands of people who work for Southern Health, The NHS long term plan has some very ambitious and of course, above all, those patients who are under targets for maternity and mental health. I shall dwell on its care.In terms of leadership, safety,caring responsiveness the target to achieve 50% reductions in stillbirth, maternal and the extent to which it is patient-centred, Southern mortality, neonatal mortality and serious brain injury Health was rated as good. I have to say, however, that by 2025. It is incredibly important, and it is crucial that some areas still require improvement—for example, the the House is updated on our progress against it. We effectiveness of services. shall do that, yes, through funding, but funding linked I have worked with many families whose young relatives with policies that will drive that outcome and drive have taken their own lives under the care of Southern improvements. Health, and I know they have been significantly involved I want to focus on midwives and maternity care. with helping to get improvements in Southern Health. I Under the coalition Government, a commitment was know that they will be pleased by last week’s CQC made to give each mother a named midwife. That is rating, and I want to congratulate those families on all obviously extremely important, both for the mental their input and their work on this issue. I also congratulate health of the mother and for her care, because it means the leadership team at Southern Health. that there is someone who, throughout, is observing Lastly,I want to talk briefly about Fareham Community how that woman is doing—understanding how she has Hospital in Fareham, which has been my pet project. It changed from one appointment to the next. It is not just is a wonderful facility in the heart of our community, a tick-box exercise, with a person who has never met the but it is sadly under-used. Last year I conducted a mother before looking at a list and saying, “Have you wide-ranging consultation with hundreds of local residents actually done this? Then you must be fine.” It is a and many stakeholders, and I authored a document on person looking at the woman and thinking, “Actually, is the conclusions: the Minister is welcome to read a copy, this someone who needs a bit of help—whose mental maybe tonight or tomorrow, if he would be interested. health has deteriorated since the last appointment, who It sets out a plan, based on the results of that consultation, is looking a little bit more anxious?” Ring-fencing the for how we can better use Fareham Community Hospital. funding is not enough in itself. One of our recommendations is that it would be a In addition, the long term plan talks about the shortage brilliant location for a mental health hub in our community. of neonatal capacity. As someone who has had the We have a great facility, which is well located and in misfortune to have to use a neonatal unit recently, I good condition, but in the light of the demands and know the tragic and immense strain that the movement challenges in the local area with young people’s mental of babies can put on parents who have to use neonatal health there is a great opportunity here for more funding units. We absolutely must put this money into expanding and more co-ordination so that Fareham Community capacity in our neonatal units, and try to ensure that Hospital can be better harnessed, so that our young parents are assured that when they move into high- people, and also other people who need mental health dependency units, they will never be downgraded because support, can use the facility and capitalise on it in the of capacity. That is incredibly important. most effective way. I hope that bosses at the CCG and those who make the decisions will that bear in mind. My hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) spoke very movingly about the issues that she had in her I applaud the Government for their commitment to trust. Moving forward with policies such as these will the funding in the Bill, and I oppose all the amendments. prevent any repeat of such issues. Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con): Members across the On a linked issue, it is important that we look at House have spoken about the importance of unanimity outcomes for multiple births. Neonatal capacity is part of purpose on mental health and maternity, but I want of that, but in addition the Twins Trust has been doing 253 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 254 fantastic work in terms of a maternity checklist, which appropriately, as was my right hon. Friend the Member has been piloted by a number of trusts but not yet all. for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), who is no longer We can look at funnelling some of the money into in his place but who talked about this not just being increasing those trials. That will drive outcomes, which about money, and my hon. Friend the Member for is what we are all here to ensure. Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris), who is also no Finally, I want to mention money for anaesthetists. longer in her place but who was also keen to highlight We talk about mental health outcomes for mothers. the importance of outputs. For reasons I will talk about Part of the problem has been that, according to frightening if I have time at the end, it is particularly important for reports, women who are in terrible need of pain relief me, on a personal level, that we focus on outputs. during childbirth have not been able to get it. That is a First, let me turn to new clause 4, which I am keen to cultural issue in some trusts. They seem to view childbirth examine. I congratulate the Opposition Front-Bench as different from having an operation on one’s leg. I team on beginning the long road back to sense—I hope would like to see anyone who would undergo an operation they do not mind my describing it as such—with their on any other part of their body without pain relief, but welcome return to an interest in healthcare outputs that seems to be something that some trusts believe rather than solely in inputs or methods. That is something women are able to do, and it is wrong. Investment in to welcome, but the problem, and the reason I cannot anaesthetists, and funnelling money into that area of support these proposals tonight, is that the Opposition the NHS, is incredibly important. continue to mix up the point about targets and outputs. To summarise: outcomes, please, not just pots of Targets are not ends in themselves. Targets are indicative, money. That will make everyone’s constituents’ lives much as we wish them to be hit and important as they better. are, to ensure that they give us good guides as to what is happening in our hospitals and healthcare system. They Lee Rowley (North East Derbyshire) (Con): It is a are different from outputs. In time, I would be keen to pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for see Opposition Front Benchers moving further down Sevenoaks (Laura Trott), not least because her last that metaphorical road towards recognising that the sentence is what the next 10 minutes of my speech are outputs are the most important thing: people getting about. [Interruption.] I am sure many Members probably well, staying well for longer; going home and living want me to sit down now, but I will continue none longer and more meaningful lives with their families and the less. within their communities. 5 pm The new clause also slightly misses the point. I infer, May I welcome the Bill in general before dealing with as clearly one can, that it starts from a position of the amendments I wish to speak about? It provides directly relating the requests made to set out things useful and good clarity for all the hospitals around the from the perspective of money. I do not doubt that country, which need to ensure that they have appropriate money is vital in this discussion, which is why we are funding in the coming years. I also welcome the clarity bringing forward this Bill, but it does slightly become a on the revenue side for hospitals such as Chesterfield blunt instrument. An opportunity is missed to recognise Royal Hospital, which serves my constituency. It is that this is not simply about money. The inputs into our looking for additional support on not only the revenue healthcare system are incredibly important, but so are side, but the capital side, although I know that this is the structure, the model, the operations, the behaviour not the debate for that. I will not be supporting amendment within it, the technology and the prioritisation chosen 3, but there was a lot of merit in it, if only to ensure that by all that vast behemoth of bureaucracy around the if we do get our urgent care village at Chesterfield Royal NHS. We have to ensure that there is a recognition of Hospital, we could thus ensure that the money is in the importance of that, and that there is a real effect on place and is ploughed into proper capital upgrades for the output at the end and on making sure that people the hospital in the future, for the benefit of everybody stay better for longer. On that basis, I cannot support in north Derbyshire and my constituency. new clause 4. I also welcome the Government’s commitment in New clause 11 is a similar attempt by the Opposition recent months to the output point that my hon. Friend to ensure annual reviews of the adequacy of the financial the Member for Sevenoaks outlined. That was done to movement forward. My challenge is that there is a some extent during the general election campaign, and I definitional problem. The new clause would require the look forward to the continuation and extension of that consideration of in the coming months and years. I am pleased that we are in a debate on the NHS and healthcare that, as my “an assessment of the extent to which changes in the costs … hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) said, of service delivery” has been relatively friendly and has come away from the affect outcomes. There is an interesting question about usual histrionic fireworks that sometimes accompany the definition of “service delivery”, whether it is a this issue. It is helpful for us occasionally to step back rather narrow assessment or could encompass everything and have this kind of debate on the NHS, given that we that the NHS ever does, and whether that would provide are all committed to improving healthcare in our any benefit to the House or anybody who used the constituencies. assessments. There is also a question about the complexity I wish to discuss two of the amendments briefly, of analysis of service delivery in the first instance and picking up on this point about outputs. The hon. Member how that can be defined and assessed. As a former for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), speaking management consultant, I am all in favour of complex from the Opposition Front Bench, was right about the analyses, but ultimately they have to provide a utility need for accountability and the need to ensure that the appropriate to what we are trying to do and to the ultimate money being committed in this Bill is spent wisely and objective and end point. 255 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 256

Although I again compliment the Opposition on moving Since our success in December, we have consistently put closer towards output-based consideration, new clause 11 forward and agreed steps to meet the commitments in also starts from the position that money alone is the our manifesto. We are delivering on the promises that ultimate arbiter of whether our healthcare system is we have made. successful. Again, it is not just about money, as important One of the most important aspects of the NHS as that money is; it is about organisation, people,motivation, long-term plan is its approach to mental health. It is workforce, demand, prioritisation, processes and how crucial that people have access to mental health services technology and innovation are changing things. If we where and when they need them. I, therefore, welcome do not recognise that, we are missing out a substantial the fact that the plan commits to ensuring that mental portion of the debate that will be vital in the next 20 years health receives a growing share of the NHS budget, to ensure that our healthcare system is fit for purpose. which will be worth at least a further £2.3 billion a year Ultimately,why does this all matter? Why does speaking in real terms by 2023-24. This will enable further service at a relatively technical level about outputs, structure or expansion and faster access to community and crisis processes matter as much as inputs and money? Because, mental health services for adults and particularly for as other people have said, this is about real people—it is children and young people. about making sure that people live for longer. We have Given that many people living with mental health all seen examples, when people come to see us at our issues may need to access health services more often, surgeries, of where the NHS works wonderfully, but in the NHS long term plan also allows for better and more our heart of hearts we all know examples of where the consistent working between all parts of health care and NHS has worked less well. That focus is sometimes as voluntary elements of the sector. As we have seen in important as the money. west Leicestershire, for example, primary care networks Let me give the House a personal example. My family, have formed, grouping GPs and other partners together including myself, have had three occasions or reasons to to the benefit of their patients. get involved in the NHS over the past few years—indeed, As NHS England sets out, primary care networks over many years. The NHS saved my life on multiple build on the core of current primary care services and occasions when I was growing up, and it also saved my enable greater provision of proactive, personalised, father’s life when he had a double heart bypass around co-ordinated and more integrated health and social 10 years ago. It did less well with my mum when, a few care. Clinicians describe this as a change from reactively months after I came to this place in September 2017, providing appointments to proactively caring for the she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer, about which I people and the communities that they serve. have spoken in Westminster Hall. That was an error,errors Linking this local working together with the benefit happen—there are humans in the process—and we have and knowledge of vanguard projects from across the not taken it any further because of that. My mum is still country and giving experienced local trust leaders, who here and I am very happy about that, but ultimately my have a deep understanding of the physical and mental mum did not have a good experience. If we just focus on health needs of their local area, the freedom to make money, we miss out on cases such as my mum’s. appropriate funding decisions will improve the overall We have been lucky in my family, but ultimately there experience of the patient and provide better health and will be constituents of ours who are not lucky. That is lifestyle outcomes. That is to be welcomed and celebrated, the point: I am grateful for the money that is going in, and I ask my fellow colleagues to support the Bill and but it has to be well spent. If this place does not reject the amendments today. consider the outputs—if this place does not understand where the money is going and how it is used—there will Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP): On a point of be people who do not get through it in the way that we order, Dame Eleanor. I notice that it is now 5.10 pm and want them to. We all want to stop that, which is why it is that the Minister is about to get to his feet. If the knife really important that we focus on outputs as much as falls at 5.30 pm, while the Minister is still speaking, or a inputs. Division is under way, can you confirm that that means there will be no Report stage, and no chance for the Jane Hunt (Loughborough) (Con): I am grateful to SNP amendments to be tabled or voted on? my east midlands colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), for that excellent The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing): speech. He made some important points, particularly The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in regard to the about outputs, the specific healthcare that is needed and procedure. If we finish this part of the procedure before the support required throughout the NHS. 5.29 pm, there will be a very short time for the next part I am grateful for this opportunity to speak to of the procedure. If this part of the consideration of the amendments 1, 2 and 3. The funding in the Bill will be Bill goes to 5.29 pm, there will indeed be no time for the administered by NHS England. The Bill guarantees Report and consideration stage. That is correct, as is long-term funding to implement the NHS long-term normal in any Bill, but I am grateful to him for pointing plan. It commits the Government to a £33.9 billion it out so clearly. increase for the NHS by 2023-24, bringing the total spend to £148.5 billion. It also provides certainty through Edward Argar: In the 15 or so minutes remaining to a double-lock agreement that places a legal duty on the me, I will endeavour to address all the points that have Secretary of State and the Treasury to uphold this level been raised. First, I thank Members on both sides of of funding as a minimum over the next four years. the House for their contributions and for the amendments We are putting our money where our mouth is. Our that have been tabled. I particularly thank the shadow manifesto clearly stated that Minister for his typically reasonable tone in making his “within the first three months of our new term, we will enshrine case forcefully. This Committee debate has been a wide- in law our fully funded, long-term NHS plan”. ranging and important one. 257 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 258

I will turn in detail to the amendments shortly, but, in with Parliament entitled to table debates and questions the interests of time, I will swiftly address the requests on the matter as it so wishes. Therefore, although I for meetings or visits. The hon. Member for Stockton appreciate the purpose behind these new clauses, they North (Alex Cunningham) was right when he said that would serve no useful additional purpose. Parliament he saw me nodding. I will be very happy to meet him, already has ample opportunity to review NHSE’s budget, my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (Matt to consider whether it is sufficient to deliver on the Vickers) and the chief executive of his hospital trust to objectives that the Government have set and to hold the discuss the issues that he raised. I will also be very Government to account. I will touch a little more on happy to meet the hon. Member for Harrow West this when addressing new clauses 9 and 2 later. (Gareth Thomas) separately to discuss the issues that he I turn to new clause 5 and the concerns that the Bill raised. enshrines the NHS budget in cash terms—a point that the shadow Minister has reasonably put to me and to Pete Wishart rose— the Secretary of State on previous occasions. Like Government departmental settlements, the NHS budget Edward Argar: I will give way very briefly, because the is set in cash terms. This is essential to deliver certainty hon. Gentleman is eating into his own time. and predictability. However, responding to changes or Pete Wishart: The Minister is in a very accommodating fluctuations in expected inflation rates is part of the mood. Does he accept that this Bill has funding implications normal course of business, and would be addressed and and consequences for health spending in Scotland? scrutinised as necessary through fiscal events such as Budgets. We do not need to legislate for that separately. Edward Argar: As has been very clear throughout Furthermore, the House should remember that what we the progression of this Bill so far, there are Barnett are proposing is a floor, not a ceiling. We are retaining consequentials, which will be dealt with in the usual and the flexibility for an increase in funding in a range of appropriate manner. scenarios. Nothing in the Bill prevents that at any future I will turn to the detail of the amendments in a point. moment, but before I do, let me say that my hon. Friend Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): This Bill is about funding, the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) addressed the but buildings and services are key to delivering on our debate in Westminster Hall just before the general election. national health service priorities, so may I highlight In that, I said that if her constituents wanted a strong the importance of the A&E at the County Hospital in voice in this place, they should vote for her. I am very Stafford and ensuring that we are supporting NHS services pleased that they did exactly that. Her speech shows in my constituency? exactly why. This legislation is a simple Bill of two clauses. The Edward Argar: My hon. Friend is a sound and vocal substantive clause—clause 1—puts a double-lock duty champion for her constituents in Stafford. I am sure on the Secretary of State and Her Majesty’s Treasury to that she will continue to champion their cause, and I am ensure that NHS England will receive, as a minimum, happy to meet her to discuss the specific issue she raised. £33.9 billion extra a year by 2024, enshrining in law the I turn to amendment 3, in respect of capital-to-revenue NHS England revenue budget rise in line with the transfers. Clause 1(2) ensures that the funding specified Government’s manifesto commitment. The Bill has in the Bill can only be used for NHSE revenue spending, deliberately been drawn narrowly to focus on that core meaning that day-to-day spending for the NHS is protected. commitment. As we have highlighted in the House previously, the Government have made a range of capital commitments 5.15 pm to the NHS, including the commitment to 40 new New clauses 4, 5 and 11 focus on whether the allocations hospitals.Nevertheless,going to the point in the amendment are sufficient. At their heart is the question of whether itself, we have been clear that the transfers from capital the quantum is appropriate and will meet the needs of revenue should have only been seen as short-term measures the NHS. Although I understand the sentiment behind that were rightly being phased out, and we are doing so. these new clauses, they are unnecessary.The chief executive My right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey of the NHS said in 2018, after the announcement of the (Jeremy Hunt), the former Secretary of State, did, however, settlement: set out why a degree of flexibility is required, and we “As the NHS turns 70, we can now face the next five years with would not believe that a blanket ban set in legislation renewed certainty. This multi-year settlement provides the funding was the right approach. we need to shape a long-term plan for key improvements in cancer, mental health and other critical services.” Gareth Thomas: Will the Minister give way? We are giving the NHS the funding that it believes it needs. Edward Argar: I will not, if the hon. Gentleman will There is already a clear duty on the Secretary of State forgive me, as I only have 10 minutes or so left. for Health to lay before Parliament and publish an There are sometimes very good and logical reasons annual mandate to NHS England. The mandate sets why adjustments between capital and revenue are needed. objectives that NHSE must seek to meet in the year As the former Secretary of State highlighted, in some ahead, and its budget for doing so. That budget includes cases, for perfectly good reasons a capital pot may not funding to meet all of NHSE’s statutory duties, including be spent fully within a year and there is an opportunity duties under the NHS constitution. The Secretary of to achieve patient good from transferring it. While I State has a further duty to keep performance against take his point and believe it is right that we should the mandate under review, and must also publish his continue to move away from such transfers, I would not annual assessment of this performance in Parliament, wish to see that rigidly set in legislation. 259 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 260

[Edward Argar] met the Secretary of State to discuss the matter, and I am happy to meet both her and the hon. Member for Amendments 2 and 1, and new clauses 1, 2, 3 and 9, Twickenham. While we do not believe it is the right relate to mental health services both for children and approach to set additional reporting mechanisms in adults, and accountability to Parliament and reporting legislation over and above the different reports that mechanisms. We have rightly seen considerable interest NHS England and the Secretary of State already make in mental health in this debate, so I will seek to address to Parliament, which offer opportunities for debate, we both those points together. I begin by paying tribute to are happy to consider whether,within the existing reporting Paul Farmer of Mind, Sir Simon Wessely, Professor mechanisms, there is a way to better convey to the House Louis Appleby, the Mental Health Foundation, Rethink and the public more widely the progress we are making Mental Illness, YoungMinds, the Royal College of against those targets. Psychiatrists, and a host of other individuals and The NHS long-term plan represents the largest expansion organisations up and down the country, for their fantastic of mental health services in a generation, renewing our work in making mental health such a feature in our commitment to increase investment faster than the overall debates and in the public consciousness. It is absolutely NHS budget in each of the next five years. Not only will right that they have done so. spending on mental health services increase faster than I pay tribute to the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. the overall NHS budget as a proportion, but spending Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Ms Dorries), on CAMHS will increase at an even faster rate. The and her predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for hon. Member for Twickenham was right to highlight Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), who brought to the role the importance of CAMHS. In our surgeries, we have of mental health Minister passion, dedication and a all had constituents come to see us who are deeply determination to make a difference. I should also reference worried and concerned about the mental health and some former Members of this House: Norman Lamb, welfare of their children, be that in relation to eating who did so much in this area; the former Prime Minister, disorders, which I focused on when I came to this place, David Cameron; and of course my right hon. Friends or a range of other factors. We are committed to the Members for South West Surrey and for Maidenhead delivering the NHS long-term plan to transform children (Mrs May), who ensured that it was front and centre of and young people’s mental health services, with an this Government’s commitment. additional 345,000 children and young people being able I want to be totally clear that the Government are to access those services. fully committed to transforming mental health services. While we are deeply sympathetic to the spirit behind That is why we enshrined in law our commitment to the amendments on mental health spending, we do not achieving parity of esteem for mental health in the believe that putting a ring fence into the Bill is the Health and Social Care Act 2012. As my right hon. appropriate way forward, given the work already being Friend the Member for South West Surrey said, that is done, the money already being spent and the outcomes driving real change on the ground. Wehave also committed already being delivered. We believe that the reporting to reforming the Mental Health Act 1983 to provide requirements are already extensive and varied. They modernised legislation. I would also highlight that at already give the public and Parliament the opportunity £12.5 billion in 2018-19, spending on mental health to scrutinise the work of the Department and NHS services is at its highest ever level. England. We are happy to look at ways in which those We have made huge strides in moving towards parity, reports might be more accessible and include different but there is still so much more to do. We are ensuring, metrics, but we believe it would be wrong to legislate on through the NHS long-term plan, that spending on them at this point. mental health services will increase by an additional As I said on Second Reading, this is a simple Bill. It £2.3 billion by 2023-24. This historic level of investment has two clauses, of which one is substantive. It has a in mental health is ensuring that we can drive forward single, simple aim: to enshrine the funding settlement one of the most ambitious reform programmes in Europe. behind the NHS long-term plan in law. It delivers the It will ensure that hundreds of thousands of additional funding that the NHS said it needed and wanted, and it people get access to the services they need in the lifetime delivers on this Government’s pledge to do so within of the plan. I flag that up because we can and will always three months of the election. In the light of that, while strive to do more, and it is right that we are always the amendments are clearly well intentioned and we pressed by this House to do so. While proposals for a appreciate the spirit behind them, they are unnecessary ring fence in mental health spending are understandable, additions to the Bill, and I urge their proposers not to the approach that this Government have already set press them to a vote. I appreciate that Members have out, with long-term commitments to funding, is already indicated their intention to press some amendments to driving the results we wish to see. a vote, I urge them, in the short period remaining before I now turn to new clause 9, tabled by my hon. Friend Committee ends, to reflect a little longer on whether the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris). they might reconsider and not move their amendments If I may, I will also address new clause 2 in this context to a vote. because there is a degree of overlap. I welcome my hon. Friend’snew clause. Although I hope that, as she indicated, 5.29 pm she will not press it to a vote—and I heard what the Three hours having elapsed since the commencement of hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) said in proceedings, the debate was interrupted (Programme Order, respect of hers—the sentiment behind it is a good one, 27 January). particularly the focus on outcomes and outputs rather than simply inputs and the amount of money going in, The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor and on adopting a holistic approach. I know that my Laing): Under the programme order of 27 January, I hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot recently must now put the Questions necessary to dispose of the 261 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 262 proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) The Committee having divided: Ayes 163, Noes 300. on the Committee stage of the Bill, and on the consideration Division No. 28] [5.32 pm —Report—stage and the consent motion in the Legislative Grand Committee (England). I can see some puzzled AYES faces around the Chamber, and not only among those Abbott, rh Ms Diane Hillier, Meg who have newly been elected to this place, so for the Abrahams, Debbie Hobhouse, Wera sake of Members unfamiliar with our procedures in Amesbury, Mike Hodge, rh Dame Margaret respect of Legislative Grand Committees, I will set out Anderson, Fleur Hodgson, Mrs Sharon what is about to happen. Ashworth, Jonathan Hollern, Kate I will put the Question on amendment 2, which has Barker, Paula Hopkins, Rachel already been proposed from the Chair. I will then call a Beckett, rh Margaret Howarth, rh Sir George member of the Legislative Grand Committee (England) Begum, Apsana Huq, Dr Rupa to move amendment 3 to clause 1. When he has done so, Benn, rh Hilary Jarvis, Dan I will put the Question on that amendment. I will then Betts, Mr Clive Johnson, Dame Diana put the single Question that clause 1—or clause 1, as Blake, Olivia Johnson, Kim Blomfield, Paul Jones, Darren amended, if it has been so amended—and clause 2 Brabin, Tracy Jones, rh Mr Kevan stand part of the Bill. I will then call a member of the Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Jones, Sarah Legislative Grand Committee (England) to move new Brown, Ms Lyn Kane, Mike clause 4. When he has done so, I will put the Question Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Keeley, Barbara that the new clause be added to the Bill. Buck, Ms Karen Kendall, Liz Burgon, Richard Khan, Afzal Pete Wishart: Can you read it again? Byrne, Ian Kyle, Peter Cadbury, Ruth Lammy, rh Mr David The Chairman: I could, but we might get to the stage Campbell, rh Sir Alan Lavery, Ian where there are no votes at all. Carden, Dan Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Champion, Sarah Lewis, Clive When the proceedings in the Legislative Grand Charalambous, Bambos Lloyd, Tony Committee (England) on the Committee stage of the Clark, Feryal Lucas, Caroline Bill are concluded, I will resume the Speaker’s Chair for Cooper, Daisy Lynch, Holly the Whip to report the Bill from Committee. As the Cooper, Rosie Madders, Justin three-hour knife has now fallen, there are no amendments Cooper, rh Yvette Mahmood, Mr Khalid for consideration on Report, as the hon. Member for Corbyn, rh Jeremy Mahmood, Shabana Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) rightly pointed out in Coyle, Neil Malhotra, Seema his point of order earlier. Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Maskell, Rachael cast by Peter Kyle) Matheson, Christian The House will again resolve itself into the Legislative Cruddas, Jon Grand Committee (England) to give consent to the Bill McCabe, Steve Cryer, John McCarthy, Kerry as a whole. I will call the Minister to move the consent Cummins, Judith McDonald, Andy motion formally, and I will put the Question on the Cunningham, Alex McDonnell, rh John consent motion forthwith. I can see that everybody Daby, Janet McFadden, rh Mr Pat understands this a lot better now. When the proceedings Davey, rh Sir Edward McGinn, Conor Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) on the McGovern, Alison Dodds, Anneliese consent motion are concluded, I will resume the Speaker’s McKinnell, Catherine Dowd, Peter Chair and call the Minister to move the Third Reading McMahon, Jim Dromey, Jack of the Bill. Mearns, Ian Duffield, Rosie I remind hon. Members that, if there is a Division in Eagle, Ms Angela Mishra, Navendu theLegislativeGrandCommittee,onlyMembersrepresenting Eagle, Maria Moran, Layla constituencies in England may vote. All Members may Efford, Clive Morris, Grahame vote on the Third Reading of the Bill. Elliott, Julie Murray, James Esterson, Bill Nichols, Charlotte Pete Wishart: On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. I Farron, Tim Norris, Alex am very sorry, but although I was listening very carefully, Fletcher, Colleen Olney, Sarah I did not quite catch all of that. Do you mind repeating Fovargue, Yvonne Onwurah, Chi it once again, please? Foxcroft, Vicky Oppong-Asare, Abena Furniss, Gill Osamor, Kate The Chairman: I fully appreciate that the hon. Gentleman Gardiner, Barry Osborne, Kate may not have caught all of that, but I happen to know Gill, Preet Kaur Owatemi, Taiwo that he is one of a handful of people in this House who Glindon, Mary Owen, Sarah (Proxy vote cast does actually understand this procedure. I hope that I Green, Kate by Kate Osamor) am one of the others, and everyone else will pick it up as Greenwood, Lilian Peacock, Stephanie we go along. Greenwood, Margaret Pennycook, Matthew Gwynne, Andrew Perkins, Mr Toby The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed Hamilton, Fabian Phillips, Jess fromtheChair(StandingOrderNo.83D),Thatamendment2 Hardy, Emma Phillipson, Bridget be made. Harman, rh Ms Harriet Pollard, Luke The Committee having proceeded to a Division. Hayes, Helen Powell, Lucy Healey, rh John Qureshi, Yasmin The Chairman: Will the Serjeant at Arms please Hendrick, Sir Mark Rayner, Angela investigate the delay in the Aye Lobby? Hill, Mike Reed, Steve 263 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 264

Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast Sultana, Zarah Freeman, George Lewis, rh Brandon by Bambos Charalambous) Tarry, Sam Freer, Mike Lewis, rh Dr Julian Reeves, Rachel Thomas, Gareth Fuller, Richard Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Reynolds, Jonathan Timms, rh Stephen Fysh, Mr Marcus Loder, Chris Ribeiro-Addy, Bell Twigg, Derek Gale, rh Sir Roger Logan, Mark Rimmer, Ms Marie Twist, Liz Ghani, Ms Nusrat Longhi, Marco Rodda, Matt Vaz, rh Valerie Gibb, rh Nick Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Russell-Moyle, Lloyd Webbe, Claudia Gibson, Peter by Lee Rowley) Sharma, Mr Virendra West, Catherine Gideon, Jo Lopresti, Jack Sheerman, Mr Barry Western, Matt Glen, John Lord, Mr Jonathan Siddiq, Tulip Whitehead, Dr Alan Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Loughton, Tim Slaughter, Andy Whittome, Nadia Gove, rh Michael Mackinlay, Craig Smith, Cat Wilson, Munira Graham, Richard Mackrory, Cherilyn Smyth, Karin Yasin, Mohammad Grant, Mrs Helen Mak, Alan Sobel, Alex Zeichner, Daniel Gray, James Malthouse, Kit Spellar, rh John Tellers for the Ayes: Grayling, rh Chris Mangnall, Anthony Streeting, Wes Thangam Debbonaire and Green, Chris Mann, Scott Stringer, Graham Jeff Smith Green, rh Damian Marson, Julie Griffiths, Kate May, rh Mrs Theresa Grundy, James Mayhew, Jerome NOES Gullis, Jonathan Maynard, Paul Afolami, Bim Chope, Sir Christopher Halfon, rh Robert McCartney, Jason Afriyie, Adam Churchill, Jo Hall, Luke McCartney, Karl Ahmad Khan, Imran Clark, rh Greg Hammond, Stephen McPartland, Stephen Aiken, Nickie Clarke, Mr Simon Hands, rh Greg Menzies, Mark Aldous, Peter Clarke, Theo Harper, rh Mr Mark Mercer, Johnny Allan, Lucy Clarke-Smith, Brendan Harris, Rebecca Merriman, Huw Amess, Sir David Clarkson, Chris Harrison, Trudy Metcalfe, Stephen Anderson, Lee Cleverly, rh James Hart, Sally-Ann Miller, rh Mrs Maria Anderson, Stuart Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hayes, rh Sir John Milling, Amanda Andrew, Stuart Coffey, rh Dr Thérèse Heald, rh Sir Oliver Mills, Nigel Ansell, Caroline Colburn, Elliot Heaton-Harris, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Argar, Edward Costa, Alberto Henderson, Gordon Mohindra, Gagan Atkins, Victoria Courts, Robert Henry, Darren Moore, Damien Bacon, Mr Gareth Coutinho, Claire Higginbotham, Antony Moore, Robbie Bacon, Mr Richard Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hinds, rh Damian Mordaunt, rh Penny Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Crouch, Tracey Hoare, Simon Morrissey, Joy cast by Leo Docherty) Daly, James Holden, Mr Richard Mullan, Dr Kieran Baillie, Siobhan Davies, Gareth Hollinrake, Kevin Mumby-Croft, Holly Baker, Duncan Davies, Philip Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Mrs Sheryll Baker, Mr Steve Davison, Dehenna Holloway, Adam Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Baldwin, Harriett Dinenage, Caroline Holmes, Paul Neill, Sir Robert Baron, Mr John Dines, Miss Sarah Howell, John Nici, Lia Bell, Aaron Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, Paul Nokes, rh Caroline Benton, Scott Docherty, Leo Huddleston, Nigel Norman, rh Jesse Beresford, Sir Paul Dorries, Ms Nadine Hudson, Dr Neil O’Brien, Neil Berry, rh Jake Double, Steve Hughes, Eddie Offord, Dr Matthew Bhatti, Saqib Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Jane Opperman, Guy Blackman, Bob Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Jeremy Parish, Neil Blunt, Crispin Drax, Richard Hunt, Tom Patel, rh Priti Bone, Mr Peter Drummond, Mrs Flick Javid, rh Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bradley, Ben Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Pawsey, Mark Brady, Sir Graham Dunne, rh Philip Jenkin, Sir Bernard Penning, rh Sir Mike Braverman, Suella Eastwood, Mark Jenkinson, Mark Penrose, John Brereton, Jack Edwards, Ruth Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Philp, Chris Bridgen, Andrew Ellis, rh Michael Jenrick, rh Robert Poulter, Dr Dan Brine, Steve Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnson, Dr Caroline Pow, Rebecca Bristow, Paul Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Johnson, Gareth Pursglove, Tom Britcliffe, Sara Eustice, George Johnston, David Quin, Jeremy Brokenshire, rh James Evans, Dr Luke Jones, Andrew Quince, Will Browne, Anthony Evennett, rh Sir David Jupp, Simon Randall, Tom Bruce, Fiona Everitt, Ben Kearns, Alicia Redwood, rh John Buchan, Felicity Fabricant, Michael Keegan, Gillian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Buckland, rh Robert Farris, Laura Knight, rh Sir Greg Richards, Nicola Burghart, Alex Fell, Simon Knight, Julian Richardson, Angela Butler, Rob Fletcher, Katherine Kruger, Danny Robertson, Mr Laurence Carter, Andy Fletcher, Mark Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Robinson, Mary Cartlidge, James Fletcher, Nick Largan, Robert Rosindell, Andrew Cash, Sir William Ford, Vicky Latham, Mrs Pauline Rowley, Lee Cates, Miriam Foster, Kevin Leigh, rh Sir Edward Russell, Dean Caulfield, Maria Francois, rh Mr Mark Levy, Ian Rutley, David Chalk, Alex Frazer, Lucy Lewer, Andrew Saxby, Selaine 265 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 266

Seely, Bob Tracey, Craig consequences for Scotland, and yet Scottish MPs are Selous, Andrew Trott, Laura locked out of this place? Can we not draw our own Shelbrooke, rh Alec Truss, rh Elizabeth conclusion that this is indeed the English Parliament? Simmonds, David Tugendhat, Tom The answer to the people of Scotland is very clear: if Smith, Chloe Vara, Mr Shailesh you want your votes to be counted, we had better become Smith, Greg Vickers, Matt an independent Parliament in Scotland. Smith, Henry Villiers, rh Theresa Smith, rh Julian Wakeford, Christian Smith, Royston Walker, Sir Charles The Chairman: I am afraid that the right hon. Gentleman Solloway, Amanda Walker, Mr Robin does not quite explain the situation as it really is. You Spencer, Dr Ben Wallace, rh Mr Ben see, this Parliament, as the Parliament of the United Spencer, rh Mark Warburton, David Kingdom, passed certain rules some time ago, and it is Stafford, Alexander Warman, Matt not correct to saythat Members from Scottish constituencies Stephenson, Andrew Watling, Giles are locked out; far from it. Members from Scottish Stevenson, Jane Webb, Suzanne constituencies, and constituencies in every part of the Stevenson, John Whately, Helen United Kingdom, have not been locked out. They have Stewart, Bob Whittaker, Craig been allowed to participate in the debate, but not to Stewart, Iain Whittingdale, rh Mr John vote in it. Members from Northern Ireland constituencies Stuart, Graham Wiggin, Bill and from Welsh constituencies are similarly categorised Sturdy, Julian Wild, James for the purpose of these particular Divisions. Sunak, rh Rishi Williamson, rh Gavin Sunderland, James Wood, Mike The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Michael Gove): Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Wragg, Mr William Syms, Sir Robert Further to that point of order, Dame Eleanor. Is it not Wright, rh Jeremy Thomas, Derek the case that health is a devolved matter, and that the Young, Jacob Throup, Maggie NHS in Scotland is the responsibility of the Scottish Zahawi, Nadhim Timpson, Edward Parliament? Is it not the case that, therefore, Members Tolhurst, Kelly Tellers for the Noes: of this House have no votes on, or say in, what happens Tomlinson, Justin James Morris and in the NHS in Scotland, and is it not appropriate to Tomlinson, Michael Mr Marcus Jones point out to SNP Members that while they stage these stunts here, the Royal Hospital for Sick Children in Question accordingly negatived. Edinburgh, for which they are responsible, remains closed, and cases of poisoning in hospitals in Glasgow Patrick Grady: On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. I for which they are responsible remain undealt with? think that we should mark this moment. This is the Until the Scottish Government make sure that the busiest that the English Parliament has been since 1707. health of the people of Scotland is looked after, the I have never seen so many people so keen to take part. people of Scotland will regard this as a transparent I am interested in the numbers that have just been stunt on the part of people who, instead of representing read out, Madam Deputy Speaker, because 163 for the their constituents, seek to manufacture grievance. Ayes seems very low to me. Just by means of a headcount, I counted a significant number more than that. In fact, TheChairman:Ifullyappreciatethepoint—[Interruption.] according to my calculations, at least 46 Members from Order. This will not degenerate into a shouting match. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were in the Lobby The right hon. Gentleman has expressed his view just now. Can you tell me whether the number that was with his usual rhetorical flourish. My only comment read out in the House accurately records the number of must be that this is a very narrow Bill, specifically Members of Parliament who wished to express their making provision for the funding of the health service view on the amendment? in England. I have to go with what it says on the Bill, The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor and it is therefore correct for it to be administered in Laing): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for expressing this way. his concerns in such an articulate fashion, and I note the words that he has used. I can confirm to him that, Martin Docherty-Hughes (West Dunbartonshire) (SNP): although his count of the number of Members who On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. I have due regard wished to express their view might well be correct, the for your judgments. When I first rose to speak in the numbers that I have announced to the House and on House in 2015, I said to the then Speaker that, while I which I will rely from the Chair constitute the number was no Unionist or home ruler, I would stand shoulder of Members who have a right to vote on this matter. As to shoulder in defending the role of the Speaker. My the hon. Gentleman knows, under the procedures set concern, if this is the Parliament of the United Kingdom out in Standing Order 83W—with which he, if not the of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, is that this Bill rest of the House, must of course be familiar—Members has Barnett consequentials for the nation of Scotland, who do not represent constituencies geographically situated the nation of Wales and the communities of Northern in England do not have a right to vote in these particular Ireland. Therefore, I am gravely concerned that the Divisions. EVEL system is being used to exclude the notion that there are Barnett consequentials. You may wish to Ian Blackford (Ross, Skye and Lochaber) (SNP): On clarify this for the Members of the Conservative and a point of order, Dame Eleanor. Perhaps you can Unionist one nation party. enlighten me. Is this indeed the first time that Members from Scotland have had their votes discounted in this The Chairman: I fully appreciate the point that the place? What conclusion should we draw, Madam Deputy hon. Gentleman raises, and there may well be Barnett Speaker, when an item such as this Bill will have spending consequentials—[HON.MEMBERS: “Ah!”] There may be 267 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 268

[The Chairman] Champion, Sarah Mahmood, Shabana Charalambous, Bambos Malhotra, Seema further opportunities when further legislation about these Clark, Feryal Maskell, Rachael matters comes before the House, but this particular Bill Cooper, Daisy Matheson, Christian is a very narrow one, and therefore the ruling is quite Cooper, Rosie McCabe, Steve clear. I appreciate what the hon. Gentleman says about Cooper, rh Yvette McCarthy, Kerry Coyle, Neil McDonald, Andy protecting the Chair and rulings from the Chair. In Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote McDonnell, rh John this case, there is no grey area. Under Standing Order cast by Peter Kyle) McFadden, rh Mr Pat No. 83W, no matter who passes through the Division Cruddas, Jon McGinn, Conor Lobby in these three Divisions before us—or however Cryer, John McGovern, Alison many Divisions there might be—only the votes of Members Cummins, Judith McKinnell, Catherine sitting for English constituencies will be counted. Cunningham, Alex McMahon, Jim Daby, Janet Mearns, Ian Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): On a point of Davey, rh Sir Edward Mishra, Navendu order, Dame Eleanor. I know that Mr Speaker has strict Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Moran, Layla rules about the use of promotional material in the Dodds, Anneliese Morris, Grahame Chamber of the House of Commons, and I am sure Dowd, Peter Murray, James that, quite unintentionally, some Members might be Dromey, Jack Nichols, Charlotte displaying material that perhaps would be inappropriate. Duffield, Rosie Norris, Alex Eagle, Ms Angela Olney, Sarah Will you point out that there are strict rules on that, and Eagle, Maria Onwurah, Chi that it should not be done in the way that it has been Efford, Clive Oppong-Asare, Abena done? Elliott, Julie Osamor, Kate Eshalomi, Florence Osborne, Kate The Chairman: I am grateful to the right hon. Lady. I Esterson, Bill Owatemi, Taiwo must say to her and to the Committee that I was hoping Farron, Tim Owen, Sarah that I would not see any promotional materials— Fletcher, Colleen Peacock, Stephanie [Interruption.] Oh no! I see one! I was hoping that such Fovargue, Yvonne Pennycook, Matthew an occurrence would not happen right now.No promotional Foxcroft, Vicky Perkins, Mr Toby materials should ever be displayed in the Chamber. Furniss, Gill Phillips, Jess For the avoidance of doubt, I refer hon. Members to Gardiner, Barry Phillipson, Bridget paragraph 21.29 of “Erskine May”—Mr Blackford, you Gill, Preet Kaur Pollard, Luke will like this one—which states clearly that Glindon, Mary Powell, Lucy Green, Kate Qureshi, Yasmin “all Members should be sufficiently articulate to express what Greenwood, Lilian Rayner, Angela they want to say without diagrams”. Greenwood, Margaret Reed, Steve I will now proceed to amendment 3 to clause 1, which I Gwynne, Andrew Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast have selected for a separate decision. Hamilton, Fabian by Bambos Charalambous) The Chair then put forthwith the Questions necessary Hardy, Emma Reeves, Rachel Harman, rh Ms Harriet Reynolds, Jonathan for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that Hayes, Helen Ribeiro-Addy, Bell time (Standing Order No. 83D). Healey, rh John Rimmer, Ms Marie Amendment proposed: 3, in clause 1, page 1, line 18, at Hendrick, Sir Mark Rodda, Matt end insert— Hill, Mike Russell-Moyle, Lloyd “and that the sums set out in the table are not permitted to be Hillier, Meg Sharma, Mr Virendra augmented by or composed of any virements from NHS capital Hobhouse, Wera Siddiq, Tulip budgets.”—(Justin Madders.) Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Slaughter, Andy Hollern, Kate Smith, Cat The amendment would stop the Secretary of State meeting the NHS England allotment for resource spending by using funds from Hopkins, Rachel Smyth, Karin NHS capital budgets. Howarth, rh Sir George Sobel, Alex Huq, Dr Rupa Spellar, rh John The Committee proceeded to a Division. Jarvis, Dan Streeting, Wes Johnson, Dame Diana Stringer, Graham The Chairman: I ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate Johnson, Kim Sultana, Zarah the delay in the Aye Lobby. Jones, Darren Tarry, Sam Jones, rh Mr Kevan Thomas, Gareth The Committee having divided: Ayes 161, Noes 298. Jones, Sarah Timms, rh Stephen Division No. 29] [6.3 pm Kane, Mike Twigg, Derek Keeley, Barbara Twist, Liz AYES Kendall, Liz Vaz, rh Valerie Abbott, rh Ms Diane Blomfield, Paul Khan, Afzal Webbe, Claudia Abrahams, Debbie Brabin, Tracy Kyle, Peter West, Catherine Amesbury, Mike Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Lammy, rh Mr David Western, Matt Anderson, Fleur Brown, Ms Lyn Lavery, Ian Whitehead, Dr Alan Ashworth, Jonathan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Whittome, Nadia Barker, Paula Buck, Ms Karen Lewis, Clive Wilson, Munira Beckett, rh Margaret Burgon, Richard Lloyd, Tony Yasin, Mohammad Begum, Apsana Byrne, Ian Lucas, Caroline Zeichner, Daniel Benn, rh Hilary Cadbury, Ruth Lynch, Holly Tellers for the Ayes: Betts, Mr Clive Campbell, rh Sir Alan Madders, Justin Thangam Debbonaire and Blake, Olivia Carden, Dan Mahmood, Mr Khalid Jeff Smith 269 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 270

NOES Howell, Paul Nokes, rh Caroline Norman, rh Jesse Afolami, Bim Dines, Miss Sarah Huddleston, Nigel O’Brien, Neil Afriyie, Adam Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hudson, Dr Neil Offord, Dr Matthew Ahmad Khan, Imran Docherty, Leo Hughes, Eddie Opperman, Guy Aiken, Nickie Dorries, Ms Nadine Hunt, Jane Parish, Neil Aldous, Peter Double, Steve Hunt, rh Jeremy Patel, rh Priti Allan, Lucy Dowden, rh Oliver Hunt, Tom Paterson, rh Mr Owen Amess, Sir David Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, rh Sajid Pawsey, Mark Anderson, Lee Drax, Richard Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Penning, rh Sir Mike Anderson, Stuart Drummond, Mrs Flick Jenkin, Sir Bernard Penrose, John Andrew, Stuart Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jenkinson, Mark Philp, Chris Ansell, Caroline Dunne, rh Philip Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Poulter, Dr Dan Argar, Edward Eastwood, Mark Jenrick, rh Robert Pow, Rebecca Atkins, Victoria Edwards, Ruth Johnson, Dr Caroline Pritchard, Mark Bacon, Mr Gareth Ellis, rh Michael Johnson, Gareth Pursglove, Tom Bacon, Mr Richard Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Johnston, David Quin, Jeremy Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Jones, Andrew Quince, Will cast by Leo Docherty) Eustice, George Jupp, Simon Randall, Tom Baillie, Siobhan Evans, Dr Luke Kearns, Alicia Redwood, rh John Baker, Duncan Evennett, rh Sir David Keegan, Gillian Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Baker, Mr Steve Everitt, Ben Knight, rh Sir Greg Richards, Nicola Baldwin, Harriett Fabricant, Michael Knight, Julian Richardson, Angela Baron, Mr John Farris, Laura Kruger, Danny Robertson, Mr Laurence Bell, Aaron Fell, Simon Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Robinson, Mary Benton, Scott Fletcher, Katherine Largan, Robert Rosindell, Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Fletcher, Mark Latham, Mrs Pauline Rowley, Lee Berry, rh Jake Fletcher, Nick Leigh, rh Sir Edward Russell, Dean Bhatti, Saqib Ford, Vicky Levy, Ian Rutley, David Blackman, Bob Foster, Kevin Lewer, Andrew Saxby, Selaine Blunt, Crispin Francois, rh Mr Mark Lewis, rh Brandon Seely, Bob Bone, Mr Peter Frazer, Lucy Lewis, rh Dr Julian Selous, Andrew Bottomley, Sir Peter Freer, Mike Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Shelbrooke, rh Alec Bradley, Ben Fuller, Richard Loder, Chris Simmonds, David Braverman, Suella Fysh, Mr Marcus Logan, Mark Smith, Chloe Brereton, Jack Gale, rh Sir Roger Longhi, Marco (Proxy vote cast Smith, Greg (Proxy vote cast Bridgen, Andrew Ghani, Ms Nusrat Lopez, Julia by Lee Rowley) by John Whittingdale) Brine, Steve Gibb, rh Nick Lopresti, Jack Smith, Henry Bristow, Paul Gibson, Peter Lord, Mr Jonathan Smith, rh Julian Britcliffe, Sara Gideon, Jo Loughton, Tim Smith, Royston Brokenshire, rh James Glen, John Mackinlay, Craig Solloway, Amanda Browne, Anthony Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Mackrory, Cherilyn Spencer, Dr Ben Bruce, Fiona Gove, rh Michael Mak, Alan Spencer, rh Mark Buchan, Felicity Graham, Richard Malthouse, Kit Stafford, Alexander Buckland, rh Robert Grant, Mrs Helen Mangnall, Anthony Stephenson, Andrew Burghart, Alex Gray, James Mann, Scott Stevenson, Jane Butler, Rob Grayling, rh Chris Marson, Julie Stevenson, John Carter, Andy Green, Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Stewart, Bob Cartlidge, James Green, rh Damian Mayhew, Jerome Stewart, Iain Cash, Sir William Griffiths, Kate Maynard, Paul Stuart, Graham Cates, Miriam Grundy, James McCartney, Jason Sturdy, Julian Caulfield, Maria Gullis, Jonathan McCartney, Karl Sunak, rh Rishi Chalk, Alex Halfon, rh Robert McPartland, Stephen Sunderland, James Chope, Sir Christopher Hall, Luke Menzies, Mark Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Churchill, Jo Hammond, Stephen Mercer, Johnny Syms, Sir Robert Clark, rh Greg Hands, rh Greg Merriman, Huw Thomas, Derek Clarke, Mr Simon Harper, rh Mr Mark Metcalfe, Stephen Throup, Maggie Clarke, Theo Harris, Rebecca Miller, rh Mrs Maria Timpson, Edward Clarke-Smith, Brendan Harrison, Trudy Milling, Amanda Tolhurst, Kelly Clarkson, Chris Hart, Sally-Ann Mills, Nigel Tomlinson, Justin Cleverly, rh James Hayes, rh Sir John Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Heaton-Harris, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Tomlinson, Michael Colburn, Elliot Henderson, Gordon Mohindra, Gagan Tracey, Craig Costa, Alberto Henry, Darren Moore, Damien Trott, Laura Courts, Robert Higginbotham, Antony Moore, Robbie Truss, rh Elizabeth Coutinho, Claire Hinds, rh Damian Mordaunt, rh Penny Tugendhat, Tom Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Hoare, Simon Morrissey, Joy Vara, Mr Shailesh Crouch, Tracey Holden, Mr Richard Mullan, Dr Kieran Vickers, Matt Daly, James Hollinrake, Kevin Mumby-Croft, Holly Villiers, rh Theresa Davies, Gareth Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Mrs Sheryll Wakeford, Christian Davies, Philip Holloway, Adam Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Walker, Sir Charles Davison, Dehenna Holmes, Paul Neill, Sir Robert Walker, Mr Robin Dinenage, Caroline Howell, John Nici, Lia Wallace, rh Mr Ben 271 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 272

Warburton, David Williamson, rh Gavin Hendrick, Sir Mark Oppong-Asare, Abena Warman, Matt Wood, Mike Hill, Mike Osamor, Kate Watling, Giles Wragg, Mr William Hillier, Meg Osborne, Kate Webb, Suzanne Wright, rh Jeremy Hobhouse, Wera Owatemi, Taiwo Whately, Helen Young, Jacob Hodge, rh Dame Margaret Owen, Sarah Whittaker, Craig Zahawi, Nadhim Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Peacock, Stephanie Whittingdale, rh Mr John Tellers for the Noes: Hollern, Kate Pennycook, Matthew Wiggin, Bill James Morris and Hopkins, Rachel Perkins, Mr Toby Wild, James Mr Marcus Jones Howarth, rh Sir George Phillips, Jess Huq, Dr Rupa Phillipson, Bridget Jarvis, Dan Pollard, Luke Question accordingly negatived. Johnson, Dame Diana Powell, Lucy New clauses 1 and 2 added to the Bill. Johnson, Kim Qureshi, Yasmin Jones, Darren Rayner, Angela New Clause 4 Jones, rh Mr Kevan Reed, Steve Jones, Sarah Reeves, Ellie (Proxy vote cast ANNUAL STATEMENT ON PERFORMANCE Kane, Mike by Bambos Charalambous) The Secretary of State must make a statement to the House of Keeley, Barbara Reeves, Rachel Commons no later than 31 March each year setting out— Kendall, Liz Reynolds, Jonathan (a) whether in the Secretary of State’s opinion the amount Khan, Afzal Ribeiro-Addy, Bell specified in section 1(1) for the following financial Kyle, Peter Rimmer, Ms Marie year is sufficient to meet the performance targets set Lammy, rh Mr David Rodda, Matt out in the NHS constitution, and Lavery, Ian Russell-Moyle, Lloyd (b) if in the Secretary of State’s opinion the amount Lewell-Buck, Mrs Emma Sharma, Mr Virendra specified in section 1(1) for the following financial Lewis, Clive Sheerman, Mr Barry year is not sufficient to meet the performance targets Lloyd, Tony Siddiq, Tulip set out in the NHS constitution, what steps Secretary Lucas, Caroline Slaughter, Andy of State is taking to ensure that those targets are Lynch, Holly Smith, Cat met.”—(Justin Madders.) Madders, Justin Smyth, Karin This new clause would require the Secretary of State to report Mahmood, Mr Khalid Sobel, Alex annually on whether the allotment to the health service specified in Mahmood, Shabana Spellar, rh John section 1(1) year is sufficient to meet the performance targets set Malhotra, Seema Streeting, Wes out in the NHS Constitution and, if not, what steps Secretary of Maskell, Rachael Stringer, Graham State is taking to ensure that those targets are met. Matheson, Christian Sultana, Zarah Brought up. McCabe, Steve Tarry, Sam Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill. McCarthy, Kerry Thomas, Gareth The Committee divided: Ayes 162, Noes 298. McDonald, Andy Timms, rh Stephen McDonnell, rh John Twigg, Derek Division No. 30] [6.23 pm McFadden, rh Mr Pat Twist, Liz AYES McGinn, Conor Vaz, rh Valerie McGovern, Alison Webbe, Claudia Abbott, rh Ms Diane Cryer, John McKinnell, Catherine Abrahams, Debbie Cummins, Judith West, Catherine McMahon, Jim Amesbury, Mike Cunningham, Alex Western, Matt Mearns, Ian Anderson, Fleur Daby, Janet Whitehead, Dr Alan Mishra, Navendu Ashworth, Jonathan Davey, rh Sir Edward Whittome, Nadia Moran, Layla Barker, Paula Dhesi, Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Wilson, Munira Morris, Grahame Beckett, rh Margaret Dodds, Anneliese Yasin, Mohammad Murray, James Begum, Apsana Dowd, Peter Zeichner, Daniel Nichols, Charlotte Benn, rh Hilary Dromey, Jack Norris, Alex Tellers for the Ayes: Betts, Mr Clive Duffield, Rosie Olney, Sarah Thangam Debbonaire and Blake, Olivia Eagle, Ms Angela Onwurah, Chi Jeff Smith Blomfield, Paul Eagle, Maria Brabin, Tracy Efford, Clive Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Elliott, Julie NOES Brown, Ms Lyn Eshalomi, Florence Afolami, Bim Baillie, Siobhan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Esterson, Bill Afriyie, Adam Baker, Duncan Buck, Ms Karen Farron, Tim Ahmad Khan, Imran Baker, Mr Steve Burgon, Richard Fletcher, Colleen Aiken, Nickie Baldwin, Harriett Byrne, Ian Fovargue, Yvonne Aldous, Peter Baron, Mr John Cadbury, Ruth Foxcroft, Vicky Allan, Lucy Bell, Aaron Campbell, rh Sir Alan Gardiner, Barry Amess, Sir David Benton, Scott Carden, Dan Gill, Preet Kaur Anderson, Lee Beresford, Sir Paul Champion, Sarah Glindon, Mary Anderson, Stuart Berry, rh Jake Charalambous, Bambos Green, Kate Clark, Feryal Greenwood, Lilian Andrew, Stuart Bhatti, Saqib Cooper, Daisy Greenwood, Margaret Ansell, Caroline Blackman, Bob Cooper, Rosie Gwynne, Andrew Argar, Edward Blunt, Crispin Cooper, rh Yvette Hamilton, Fabian Atkins, Victoria Bone, Mr Peter Coyle, Neil Hardy, Emma Bacon, Mr Gareth Bradley, Ben Creasy, Stella (Proxy vote Harman, rh Ms Harriet Bacon, Mr Richard Braverman, Suella cast by Peter Kyle) Hayes, Helen Badenoch, Kemi (Proxy vote Brereton, Jack Cruddas, Jon Healey, rh John cast by Leo Docherty) Bridgen, Andrew 273 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 274

Brine, Steve Glen, John Mackinlay, Craig Seely, Bob Bristow, Paul Goodwill, rh Mr Robert Mackrory, Cherilyn Selous, Andrew Britcliffe, Sara Graham, Richard Mak, Alan Shelbrooke, rh Alec Brokenshire, rh James Grant, Mrs Helen Malthouse, Kit Simmonds, David Browne, Anthony Gray, James Mangnall, Anthony Smith, Chloe Bruce, Fiona Grayling, rh Chris Mann, Scott Smith, Greg (Proxy vote cast Buchan, Felicity Green, Chris Marson, Julie by John Whittingdale) Buckland, rh Robert Green, rh Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Burghart, Alex Griffiths, Kate Mayhew, Jerome Smith, rh Julian Butler, Rob Grundy, James Maynard, Paul Smith, Royston Carter, Andy Gullis, Jonathan McCartney, Jason Solloway, Amanda Cartlidge, James Halfon, rh Robert McCartney, Karl Spencer, Dr Ben Cash, Sir William Hall, Luke McPartland, Stephen Spencer, rh Mark Cates, Miriam Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Stafford, Alexander Caulfield, Maria Hands, rh Greg Mercer, Johnny Stephenson, Andrew Chalk, Alex Harper, rh Mr Mark Merriman, Huw Stevenson, Jane Chope, Sir Christopher Harris, Rebecca Metcalfe, Stephen Stevenson, John Churchill, Jo Harrison, Trudy Miller, rh Mrs Maria Stewart, Bob Clark, rh Greg Hart, Sally-Ann Milling, Amanda Stewart, Iain Clarke, Mr Simon Hayes, rh Sir John Mills, Nigel Stuart, Graham Clarke, Theo Heaton-Harris, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Sturdy, Julian Clarke-Smith, Brendan Henderson, Gordon Mohindra, Gagan Sunak, rh Rishi Clarkson, Chris Henry, Darren Moore, Damien Sunderland, James Cleverly, rh James Higginbotham, Antony Moore, Robbie Swayne, rh Sir Desmond Clifton-Brown, Sir Geoffrey Hinds, rh Damian Mordaunt, rh Penny Syms, Sir Robert Colburn, Elliot Hoare, Simon Morrissey, Joy Thomas, Derek Costa, Alberto Holden, Mr Richard Mullan, Dr Kieran Throup, Maggie Courts, Robert Hollinrake, Kevin Mumby-Croft, Holly Timpson, Edward Coutinho, Claire Hollobone, Mr Philip Murray, Mrs Sheryll Tolhurst, Kelly Cox, rh Mr Geoffrey Holloway, Adam Murrison, rh Dr Andrew Tomlinson, Justin Crouch, Tracey Holmes, Paul Neill, Sir Robert Tomlinson, Michael Daly, James Howell, John Nici, Lia Tracey, Craig Davies, Gareth Howell, Paul Nokes, rh Caroline Trott, Laura Davison, Dehenna Huddleston, Nigel Norman, rh Jesse Truss, rh Elizabeth Dinenage, Caroline Hudson, Dr Neil O’Brien, Neil Tugendhat, Tom Dines, Miss Sarah Hughes, Eddie Offord, Dr Matthew Vara, Mr Shailesh Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, Jane Opperman, Guy Vickers, Matt Docherty, Leo Hunt, rh Jeremy Parish, Neil Villiers, rh Theresa Dorries, Ms Nadine Hunt, Tom Patel, rh Priti Wakeford, Christian Double, Steve Javid, rh Sajid Paterson, rh Mr Owen Dowden, rh Oliver Jayawardena, Mr Ranil Pawsey, Mark Walker, Sir Charles Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Sir Bernard Penning, rh Sir Mike Walker, Mr Robin Drax, Richard Jenkinson, Mark Penrose, John Wallace, rh Mr Ben Drummond, Mrs Flick Jenkyns, Mrs Andrea Philp, Chris Warburton, David Duncan Smith, rh Sir Iain Jenrick, rh Robert Poulter, Dr Dan Warman, Matt Dunne, rh Philip Johnson, Dr Caroline Pow, Rebecca Watling, Giles Eastwood, Mark Johnson, Gareth Pritchard, Mark Webb, Suzanne Edwards, Ruth Johnston, David Pursglove, Tom Whately, Helen Ellis, rh Michael Jones, Andrew Quin, Jeremy Whittaker, Craig Ellwood, rh Mr Tobias Jupp, Simon Quince, Will Whittingdale, rh Mr John Elphicke, Mrs Natalie Kearns, Alicia Randall, Tom Wiggin, Bill Eustice, George Keegan, Gillian Redwood, rh John Wild, James Evans, Dr Luke Knight, rh Sir Greg Rees-Mogg, rh Mr Jacob Williamson, rh Gavin Evennett, rh Sir David Knight, Julian Richards, Nicola Wood, Mike Everitt, Ben Kruger, Danny Richardson, Angela Wragg, Mr William Fabricant, Michael Kwarteng, rh Kwasi Robertson, Mr Laurence Wright, rh Jeremy Farris, Laura Largan, Robert Robinson, Mary Young, Jacob Fell, Simon Latham, Mrs Pauline Rosindell, Andrew Zahawi, Nadhim Fletcher, Katherine Leigh, rh Sir Edward Rowley, Lee Fletcher, Mark Levy, Ian Russell, Dean Tellers for the Noes: Fletcher, Nick Lewer, Andrew Rutley, David James Morris and Ford, Vicky Lewis, rh Brandon Saxby, Selaine Mr Marcus Jones Foster, Kevin Lewis, rh Dr Julian Frazer, Lucy Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Question accordingly negatived. Freer, Mike Loder, Chris Fuller, Richard Logan, Mark The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair. Fysh, Mr Marcus Longhi, Marco Gale, rh Sir Roger Lopez, Julia (Proxy vote cast Bill reported, without amendment (Standing Order Ghani, Ms Nusrat by Lee Rowley) No. 83D(6)). Gibb, rh Nick Lopresti, Jack Gibson, Peter Lord, Mr Jonathan Bill, not amended in the Legislative Grand Committee Gideon, Jo Loughton, Tim (England), considered. 275 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 NHS Funding Bill 276

Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing): There for whatever reason, were to object to the consent are no amendments on consideration. motion, you would not even be able to hear their voices —it is as if we are invisible? Patrick Grady: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is great to be back in the United Kingdom Parliament—just like magic! I congratulate you on your The Chairman: It is not as if any hon. Member of this skilful chairing of the English Parliament from the House is ever invisible or, indeed, inaudible, but merely, lower Chair over the last three hours. You have just once again, following Standing Order No. 83W, which announced that there are no amendments to be considered this House resolved to put into the Standing Orders of on Report as none had been tabled because the knife the House. fell more than an hour ago. Could you confirm that that is correct? I notice that the selection list says: Pete Wishart: On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. “Mr Speaker has provisionally selected…New Clauses…as [Interruption.] I hear the groans from my Conservative long as the 3 hour time limit has not expired: NC6 [SNP] + NC7 colleagues. I have to keep my record of speaking in the [SNP].” English Parliament—it is a record that I very much For the record, can we confirm that the effect of all this cherish and look forward to maintaining. These events has been that amendments tabled by Members of the are being televised and people throughout the United Scottish National party have not been debated tonight Kingdom, particularly those in Scotland, are observing and could not been divided on because the Government our proceedings with a degree of mystification and did not provide enough time, or Members took up so bewilderment. What Scottish viewers will see is the much time in the meeting of the English Parliament—the baying, groaning and booing of Conservative Members Legislative Grand Committee—that they have effectively about Scottish Members of Parliament asserting their denied the rights of SNP Members to table amendments rights to have their say on the funding of the national to a Bill that directly affects our constituents? health service. Can you confirm that that is the case and that this House really needs to grow up, behave itself Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman’sanalysis and come into the 21st century? is not wrong. The knife has fallen. The House voted some days ago to provide three hours, or four hours in The Chairman: I understand the point that the hon. total, for consideration of this Bill, and it is indeed the Gentleman makes. I would say, as Mr Speaker always case that because those four hours have passed, there is says, and as every occupant of the Chair always says, no time for debate on consideration and Report—that that our behaviour in this Chamber should, at all times, is absolutely correct. There is also no time for debate on be of a standard that makes us never ashamed to be Third Reading. watched by anyone on television or in any other way, As to whether the Government did not provide sufficient regardless of the subject of our proceedings. I notice time, or Members of this House took up all the time in that that has engendered some slightly better behaviour— the early part of the proceedings, that is not a matter for thank you. me to judge; I have merely facilitated it. Members might have decided not to speak for very long at the beginning. Motion made, and Question put forthwith, If so, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would have That the Legislative Grand Committee (England) consents to had the opportunity to discuss the matters that they had the NHS Funding Bill, not amended in the Legislative Grand tabled. I thank him for his further points. Committee (England).— (Edward Argar.) Does the Minister intend to move a consent motion Under the terms of the Order of the House of 27 January, in the Legislative Grand Committee? I must now put the Question necessary to bring to a conclusion the proceedings in the Legislative Grand Edward Argar indicated assent. Committee on the consent motion. The question is the The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative consent motion. As many are of that opinion say “Aye”— Grand Committee (England) (Standing Order No.83M(3)). [HON.MEMBERS: “Aye!”]—of the contrary “No”—[HON. MEMBERS: “No!”]. The Ayes have it—[Interruption.] [DAME ELEANOR LAING in the Chair] Wenow come to a scientific matter. Members representing Scottish seats are well aware that they do not have the 6.41 pm right to vote on this particular motion. They therefore The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing): do not have the right to shout “No” when I put the I remind hon. Members, although I do not think there question. I can hear “Aye”from the Government Benches. is any need for reminding at this stage, that if there is a The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Division, only Members representing constituencies in Wishart) knows that I am more than capable of discerning England may vote. a Scottish “No”from a non-Scottish “No”—[Interruption.] Order. I am ruling that the shouting of “No” from the Patrick Grady: On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. SNP Benches does not mean that we are going to have a We are back in the English Parliament again and the Division. absurdity of this procedure is now being laid bare. [Interruption.] I am delighted that Conservative Members Question agreed to. are groaning because several of them voted for it when it was introduced way back in 2015. They did not have Martin Docherty-Hughes: On a point of order, Dame to—it was a choice. I am not trying to beat the record of Eleanor. I always have due regard for you and anyone my hon. Friend the Member for Perth and North Perthshire who sits in the Chair of any Parliament. You said that (Pete Wishart), who has spoken in the Legislative Grand you could discern Scottish MPs shouting “No”; I fully Committee for England more times than any other understand that. Can you advise me whether you can Member of this House over the past four years, but can hear Scottish constituency MPs on the Government we just confirm again that, as you said, if Scottish Members, Benches shouting “Aye”? 277 NHS Funding Bill 4 FEBRUARY 2020 278

The Chairman: I believe I can, but as their voices have Rating and Valuation been drowned out by the English “Ayes”, I cannot hear the Scottish Members on the Government Benches. 6.50 pm [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Milton Keynes The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Jesse Norman): South (Iain Stewart) points out that, although he has a I beg to move, Scottish voice, he has an English vote. We have had That the Local Government Finance Act 1988 (Non-Domestic enough of this. Rating Multipliers) (England) Order 2019, which was laid before this House on 4 November 2019, in the last Session of Parliament, Ian Blackford: On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. be approved. I am grateful to you for allowing this point of order. I This order makes a small but important technical wonder whether you can help me. When we were all change to business rates. Specifically, it changes the elected to this place in December 2019, we were sent annual inflationary increase in the business rates multiplier here to represent our constituents. What message does it from the retail prices index to the lower consumer prices give to the people of Ross, Skye and Lochaber and the index for the coming financial year. As hon. Members constituents of my many hon. Friends that we are not may know, the multiplier is effectively the tax rate permitted to vote on matters in this House that have applied to the calculation of business rates, be it through direct consequences for spending in Scotland? the standard multiplier or the small business multiplier. Historically, these multipliers would rise in line with the The Chairman: That is not a point of order for the preceding year’s RPI figure. On this basis, the multipliers Chair, and my opinion on the matter is irrelevant. We were due to increase to reflect the September 2019 RPI have had enough points of order; it is time to continue figure, which was 2.4%. In Budget 2016, the Government with business. announced that they would switch the multiplier uprating The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report the from RPI to CPI indexation from April 2020. decision of the Committee (Standing Order No. 83M(6)). [Interruption.] The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair;decision reported. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): Order. Will Members leaving the Chamber do so quietly, please? 6.49 pm More than four hours having elapsed since the Jesse Norman: The autumn Budget 2017 brought commencement of proceedings in the Legislative Grand forward this implementation date to April 2018. The Committee (England), the proceedings were interrupted switch makes a reduction to business rates that is estimated (Programme Order, 27 January). to be worth more than £6 billion over the next five Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83E), years, and the benefit to business will continue to grow That the Bill be now read the Third time. as the business rates multipliers are uprated by the lower rate of inflation year on year. The Government Question agreed to. introduced regulations to make this change for previous Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed. years, and we are bringing forward this order to do the same for 2020-21. TELECOMMUNICATIONS INFRASTRUCTURE Before I proceed to outline the detail of the order (LEASEHOLD PROPERTY) BILL itself, I would like to set out some of the background for (PROGRAMME) (NO. 2) the benefit of the House. The Government recognise Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that business rates can represent a high fixed cost for Order No. 83A(7)), some businesses—indeed, many businesses—and we have taken repeated steps to reduce the burden of the tax. That the Order of 22 January 2020 (Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill: Programme) be varied Reforms since Budget 2016 include, first, making 100% as follows: small business rate relief permanent and doubling the In paragraph (2) of the Order (conclusion of proceedings in threshold of this relief from April 2017. As a result, Public Bill Committee), for “6 February”substitute “13 February”.— more than 675,000 of the smallest businesses do not pay (Iain Stewart.) business rates at all. Secondly, increasing the threshold Question agreed to. for the standard multiplier to £51,000 from April 2017 has removed many properties from the higher rate of the tax. Thirdly, moving to more frequent valuations by bringing the next revaluation forward one year to 2021 and moving to three-year revaluations after that will make bills fairer by ensuring they more closely reflect properties’ current rental values. Finally, introducing a new retail discount has cut the business rates bills of small retailers by one third for two years from April 2019. This is providing up-front support to the retail sector at what is proving to be a challenging time for many retailers, and it is worth about £1 billion to businesses. Looking forward, as confirmed in the statement I made on 27 January,from 1 April this year the Government will increase the retail discount to 50% in 2020-21, and extend eligibility to independent cinemas and grassroots music venues for the first time. We will provide additional 279 Rating and Valuation4 FEBRUARY 2020 Rating and Valuation 280

[Jesse Norman] Members will be aware that there has been continued argument about the use of RPI as an inflation indicator, support to pubs through a £1,000 discount for pubs as against CPI and CPIH. RPI was de-designated as a with a rateable value of less than £100,000. We will national statistic back in 2013, yet it is still often used in extend the duration of the £1,500 discount for local areas such as the regulation of train fares, student loan newspaper office space for a further five years. However, debt, and many occupational pension schemes. CPI has it is important to be clear that the Government recognise been adopted in this case, but we have no clear explanation that concerns remain about the impact of the tax. That why the use of RPI continues in other areas. The Royal is why we are committed to a further review of business Statistical Society has been highly critical of that approach. rates, details of which will be announced in due course. After many years of confusion, the Chancellor has The order before the House is the necessary secondary now agreed not to cease the production of RPI statistics, legislation required to effect the change in the inflationary but to slowly align them with CPIH, thus ending the increase for business rates from RPI to CPI in the situation of, as The Financial Times put it, financial year 2020-21. It sets out the new equation for “the Office for National Statistics and UK Statistics Authority setting the business rates multipliers for the coming publishing a key economy measure every month which they financial year, so that the September 1.7% CPI figure is accept is wrong, but doing nothing to improve it.” used instead of the 2.4% RPI figure. That is what has been happening over the past few Given the difference in the multiplier from uprating years. I therefore find it quite revealing that, rather than this year, the small business multiplier in 2020-21 will be amending the Local Government Finance Act 1988 49.9p, rather than 50.3p. The standard multiplier in through primary legislation to make that change permanent, 2020-21 will be 51.2p, rather than 51.6p. That change the Government choose to make it yet again, year on represents a cut in business rates every year, benefiting year, through secondary legislation. Is this use of orders, all rate payers and freeing up cash for businesses. The rather than primary legislation to designate the relevant order applies to England—unlike in the last debate, inflation measure, to retain flexibility for the Government, Madam Deputy Speaker, there has not been quite the or for some other unexplained reason? Either way, it same interest from Scottish nationalists about this measure, creates a potentially unstable environment for businesses although both provisions apply to England. The and local authorities, perhaps up to 2025 or beyond. Government will provide the devolved Administrations We have seen no uprating in the existing thresholds at with funding to enable them to offer similar support if which discounts on business rates apply. I accept that they wish, and they will fully compensate local authorities the retail discount has increased from one third to for the income they will lose as a result of this measure. 50%, and been extended to some additional categories This measure should not be viewed in isolation, and of economic operator.I am probing, through parliamentary as I have said, it is one of many introduced by this questions, what proportion of rateable businesses are Government, and their predecessor Governments, to actually covered, given the low thresholds at which those support business. I have mentioned numerous cuts to discounts apply, especially in areas of high property costs. business rates, including the two-year business rates The Conservative manifesto said that the Government relief for small retailers. Looking more widely, the UK would go further and fundamentally review the business corporate tax regime remains highly competitive, with rate system, so it was disappointing that the Minister the Government having lowered corporation tax from said—twice—that this would happen “in due course”. 28% in 2010 to 19% today—the lowest rate in the G20. Will he please tell us once when that review will at least Beyond that, businesses are benefiting from enhanced begin, and what its scope will be? According to the tax incentives, including the introduction of the new British Retail Consortium, 2019 was the worst year for 2% structures and buildings allowance, and a temporary retail in 25 years. We need some urgency from the increase in the annual investment allowance to £1 million. Government in dealing with this issue. We also need to The statutory instrument that we are legislating for deal with the impact of the business rate system on today will contribute to the Government’s efforts to preventing the investment that is required to ensure reduce the burden of business rates and make them environmentally friendly business and manufacturing. fairer for taxpayers. As I outlined, on top of the reliefs Finally, we need to put rating in the context of the already in place, the Government are committed to a overall local government funding settlement. It was review of the business rates system, details of which will disappointing that the Minister did not talk about that be announced in due course. In conclusion, this order at all, but merely about compensation for this measure will change the annual inflationary increase in business in the settlement. All Labour Members realise that the rates from the retail price index to the consumer prices Government are suggesting a real-terms cut to local index in financial year 2020-21, thereby reducing costs government. Even worse, the alleged increase they are for all business rate payers in England and giving the putting into local government is predicated on all councils economy a further boost. I commend the order to the increasing council tax by the full amount, which they House. blatantly will not do—smoke and mirrors yet again. We have seen a concerning trend where funding from local 6.56 pm authorities in less affluent areas is stripped back at Anneliese Dodds (Oxford East) (Lab/Co-op): I am a far faster rate than it is in more affluent areas. The grateful to the Minister for his explanation of the order, Government’s laughably named fair funding approach and broadly supportive of its contents. It does, however, would see almost three-quarters of the so-called red raise some significant questions about the Government’s wall seats losing out even further. There is great concern continued use of the retail price index as against the among those in local government that reforms to business consumer prices index, and about their approach to rates could make this even worse, with 77% of councils business rate reform and local government funding more saying that they lack confidence in 100% business rate widely. retention. 281 Rating and Valuation4 FEBRUARY 2020 Rating and Valuation 282

I hope the Minister will address these concerns, outline instrument on local government finance today.Liverpool a timetable for the review of business rates, indicate City Council is a council that has had its funding whether that review will include considerations of local reduced by 64% since 2010, equating to £640 million; a government, and, above all, let us know whether we will council that is the backbone of our communities, providing see an end to the current uncertainties around CPI adoption. services from cradle to grave; and a council that, along with so many others, needs to be funded properly and Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): It equitably. is with great pleasure that I call Paula Barker to make I did not find politics; politics found me. I owe most her maiden speech. things in life—I make no apology for this—to the trade union movement. It was that movement that gave me 7.1 pm security at work. It was that movement that made me Paula Barker (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab): Thank understand the power of solidarity. And it was the you, Madam Deputy Speaker,for giving me the opportunity working-class movement that made me realise that we, to make my maiden speech in this place. I congratulate the collective, are the tide that lifts all boats. All these you on your election and wish you the very best for the principles were reaffirmed—and thank you to Conservative future. Members—by the Conservative party, which waged an I want to take a brief moment, at the beginning of unrelenting assault on my city, attempting to put us into this speech, to pay tribute to my predecessor, Luciana a state of “managed decline”. Berger, who served my constituency for nine years. In We are self-reliant, hard-working and independently particular, her commitment to raising the profile of minded people. There is no such inclination towards mental health issues was very encouraging. Although it “welfarism” or a prevailing sense of “victimhood”, as is an issue more widely talked about than ever in society, The Spectator once asserted while the Prime Minister it sits far too low down on the political agenda. I wish was undertaking tough, arduous graft doing real work Luciana and her young family the very best for the future. in that infamous sweatshop that was its editorial room. My wedding day was the best day of my life and my Like my party,we are a city of work and workers—human two sons are my proudest achievement in life, but it is beings with long memories, united in our ideals and the greatest honour of my life—and a most humbling fundamentally optimistic about our collective future. I one—to sit in this Chamber as the Labour Member of will always champion my constituency, my city, wider Parliament for Liverpool, Wavertree. I represent a Merseyside and our beloved north-west region, so long wonderfully diverse constituency in south Liverpool. It as the good people of Wavertree continue to put their has a number of communities—from Childwall to Church, faith in me. from Kensington to Old Swan, from Picton to Wavertree I want to give a warning to Conservative Members itself—unique with their own characteristics, rich in using a contemporary example, but before I do, I must their own history and proud of their contribution to say that the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities our city’s story. I will speak for all our people in all their and Local Government is not better qualified to understand diversity, not least for some of the longest-established the problems that our city faces than the actual people minority communities in our nation. Our Yemeni who represent it. The point is this: if devolution is to community, our Jewish and Hindu communities, and mean anything whatsoever, it is Liverpool City Council our Afro-Caribbean and African communities. I cannot and the city Mayor who should have the power to go on without mentioning how much it means to our decide whether to continue the successful landlord licensing city to finally have a black MP from Liverpool sitting scheme. I know that my constituents will suffer on the on these Benches—my good friend, my hon. Friend the back of the decision to withdraw the scheme, and we Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson). will not take it lying down. We seldom take anything My constituency is economically diverse, too, and lying down in my part of the world. that is something I am less inclined to celebrate. Liverpool, Bill Shankly had it right when he said: Wavertree is the story of two constituencies. The economic “The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, disparity between the wealthiest and poorest parts of my everyone having a share of the rewards.” constituency is far too great. My socialism is aspirational: It is the way he saw football and life. I and my fellow it is not about levelling down, but rather levelling up Scousers are not much different. My party has a long communities that for far too long have suffered at the road back to power. United in our common aims and hands of crushing Tory austerity. values, we can and will overcome the odds to achieve I was born in the constituency at Sefton General power,because it is only through power that my constituents Hospital. My mother and father both worked at the will be able to realise their hopes, dreams and aspirations. sweet factory, Barker and Dobson—the name a mere coincidence. Both were workers on the shop floor and 7.8 pm members of the Transport and General Workers Union. Jesse Norman: Let me start by responding to the When my dad tragically died two weeks before my comments from the Opposition Front Bencher, the hon. second birthday,my mum raised me as a single mother—so, Member for Oxford East (Anneliese Dodds), who raised according to the Prime Minister, in his own words that a series of questions of a technical nature. She asked makes me “ill-raised, ignorant” and “aggressive”. In all why the Government are continuing to use RPI versus honesty, I may well be the latter—it comes with the CPI, and I was grateful that she acknowledged that the territory of being a woman with an opinion, and a Scouse policy has been one of slow alignment. In September one at that. 2019, the Chancellor announced that the Government I joined my trade union, Unison—or NALGO, as it and the UK Statistics Authority would jointly consult was then—on my first day working for Liverpool City on proposals to address shortcomings in RPI. We expect Council, so it is apt that we are discussing a statutory that consultation to launch at the time of the Budget. 283 Rating and Valuation 4 FEBRUARY 2020 284

[Jesse Norman] we have learnt that the information provided concerning those infected with coronavirus was incorrect. The student I am sure the shadow Minister is aware—I think she did access student accommodation—Vita Student hinted at this—that since 2010 the Government have accommodation—despite our being told they had not. been reducing the use of RPI, and we will continue to There is confusion over how information is being gathered do so where practicable. She asked why primary legislation and shared, which could have a serious impact on had not been used in the context of this instrument. The public confidence in how the coronavirus is being managed. answer is that the Government have made a commitment The Government need to get a grip as we may be in the that this will be permanent and that they will use CPI early stages of the management of this infection. Could for the uprating of business rates. We have also said—if you, Madam Deputy Speaker, advise the House on we have not, let me say it now—that we will consider whether the Secretary of State for Health and Social introducing primary legislation in due course, but the Care intends to make a further statement to the House, parliamentary timetable is very congested and we have in particular to address the management of communications to make sure it can fit alongside many other items, surrounding coronavirus, in the light of the latest including items to which I am sure she is thoroughly developments? committed. Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton): I The shadow Minister talked about raising thresholds. thank the hon. Lady for her point of order, and for As I think she will acknowledge, we have increased the giving me notice of it. Obviously the Secretary of State rate for the retail discount, and the pubs discount has is responsible for the accuracy of what he says in the been set at a high level and so includes a great number Chamber, and for the information that is given to the of pubs. She asked about the review. We have said we public about this extremely important matter. I have will launch a review in due course. I will not go further not heard of any intention on the part of Ministers to than that, although at this time of the year it does not make a further statement, but those on the Treasury require the application of rocket science to see when “in Bench will have heard the hon. Lady’s point of order, due course” might ultimately land. and I know that she is well aware of the further routes Finally, the shadow Minister talked about local that she can pursue if she remains dissatisfied with the government. Of course, she is right to focus on the situation. importance of business rates to local government funding. I had the British Retail Consortium in to see me only Business without Debate recently, and I talk closely with all those affected by the rate. As she will be aware, the Secretary of State for DELEGATED LEGISLATION Housing, Communities and Local Government published Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the provisional 2020-21 local government finance settlement Order No. 118(6)), in December, which set out an additional £2.9 billion in ELECTRICITY core funding, as announced in the spending review That the draft Electricity Supplier Obligations (Excluded Electricity) 2019. As she also knows, however, it is not just a matter (Amendment) Regulations 2019, which were laid before this of what funding is provided by central Government; it House on 9 September 2019, in the last Parliament, be approved.— is also a matter of what core spending power is available (Iain Stewart.) to local authorities. Question agreed to. I am pleased to welcome the hon. Member for Liverpool, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Wavertree (Paula Barker), who made her maiden speech. Order No. 118(6)), I congratulate her and welcome her to her place in the PUBLIC BODIES House. She got wonderful support from her colleagues That the draft Public Bodies (Abolition of Public Works Loan on the Opposition Benches, which is always a comfort Commissioners) Order 2019, which was laid before this House on when doing one’s maiden speech, so I congratulate her 14 October 2019, in the last Session of Parliament, be approved.—(Iain on that as well. She described herself as a woman with Stewart.) an opinion. In this House, anyone who can describe Question agreed to. themselves like that will go a long way, so I congratulate her again. Just to correct the public record, however, I BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE hope she will recognise that Tory support for Liverpool (11 AND 12 FEBRUARY) goes back a long way. Michael Heseltine was recently Ordered, given the freedom of the city in recognition of his That, support, and I think that everyone can see the difference and the energy the city has at the moment. The Government (1) at the sitting on Tuesday 11 February, notwithstanding paragraph (2)(c)(i) of Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of are seeking to support it and the mayoralty in many public business), business in the name of Ian Blackford may be different ways. entered upon at any hour and may be proceeded with, though Question put and agreed to. opposed, for three hours; proceedings shall then lapse if not previously disposed of; and Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply; Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op): On a (2) at the sitting on Wednesday 12 February, notwithstanding point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder if the provisions of Standing Order No. 16 (Proceedings under an you could assist me. When we have a public health Act or on European Union documents), the Speaker shall put scare, we expect the Government to be in control. the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on— Yesterday, I raised the serious issue of how information (a) the Motion in the name of Secretary Priti Patel relating about the coronavirus infection was being shared and to Police Grant Report not later than three hours how getting communications right was crucial to alleviating after the commencement of proceedings on that Motion, public concern while also protecting the public. Today and 285 Business without Debate 4 FEBRUARY 2020 286

(b) the Motions in the name of Secretary Robert Jenrick Rail Services: North-East England relating to Local Government Finance not later than three hours after the commencement of proceedings Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House on the first such Motion or six hours after the do now adjourn.—(Iain Stewart.) commencement of proceedings relating to Police Grant Report, whichever is the later; proceedings on 7.17 pm those Motions may continue, though opposed, after the moment of interruption; and Standing Order Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): I am very No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Iain pleased to have secured the debate, but it is sad that it Stewart.) also gives me another opportunity to raise the poor service that constituents of mine who travel from Chester- le-Street railway station are still receiving. I initiated a PETITION similar debate on 15 January 2019, highlighting the poor service that was being generated from the change Minerals Quarry in Barford, Warwickshire in the timetables in May 2018. The Minister who replied was the then Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State 7.15 pm for Transport, the hon. Member for Harrogate and Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), and I think it is worth am pleased to present a petition on behalf of my reiterating what he said. He said: constituents who oppose the establishment of quarries “There will be no repeat of the processes that led to the failure of May 2018 and that timetable change.”—[Official Report, 15 January in the immediate vicinity of our communities. Quarrying 2019; Vol. 652, c. 1139.] generates considerable dust, especially silica particulates. The people of Barford, whom I support, have begun a He also said that he entirely agreed with me that services national campaign to stop such quarries, which started offered to several parts of the country, including the with the recognition of the huge risk to health that north-east, had been “unacceptable”. Then, trying to those such as the one proposed at nearby Wasperton strike a bright note and thinking that it was a positive present to human health. The petition reads as follows: gesture, he said that new rolling stock which would be brought into service in the coming months should make The petition of residents of the constituency of Warwick and life easier for passengers using Chester-le-Street railway Leamington, station. Declares that Warwickshire County Council’splans for a minerals quarry in Wasperton, near the village of Barford, should be All I can say is that nothing could be further from the withdrawn. truth. We have now experienced the impact of the new The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons timetable that was introduced in December 2019. Given urges the Government to ensure that Warwickshire County Council’s the combination of shocking incompetence on the part plans for a minerals quarry in Wasperton, near the village of of those responsible for the timetable and the blatant Barford, should be withdrawn. disregard of operators—mainly TransPennine Express—for And the petitioners remain, etc. the wishes of the travelling public, the situation is just [P002554] as bad, and not just in my constituency: I know that it has been affecting others across the north-east. Mike Hill (Hartlepool) (Lab): Hartlepool is the third busiest train station in the north-east, which shows that there is great demand for rail travel, yet the trains to Newcastle run only once an hour, and even then they have only two carriages. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is completely unacceptable and that more resources should be put into stations that are well used, such as Hartlepool? Mr Jones: I totally agree; it is the same story that we get all the time. If Hartlepool, a town adjacent to the two major conurbations of Teesside and Tyneside, were in the south-east of England, it would have a service every half hour, rather than the one my hon. Friend has just outlined. That brings me to the changes that were brought in in 2019. The timetable for my constituents got off to a flying start, because the two peak-time commuter trains, at 7.10 and 8.03 in the morning, were both cancelled on the first day. A further 11 daily TransPennine services to the north-east were withdrawn by the end of January, which left only 50% of TransPennine’s timetable for the north-east operational. TransPennine had given clear commitments to Transport for the North that there would be a seamless integration of the new timetable. Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Member is right to bring this issue forward, and he is always very assiduous for his constituency. Does he not agree that in 287 Rail Services: North-East England4 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: North-East England 288

[Jim Shannon] to travel. For example, the popular 7.17 am train was taken off the timetable and the equally popular 5.15 pm order to have a thriving industry and business district, train southbound from Newcastle was moved over half there must be a reliable, dedicated public transport an hour later. It is no good arguing that more trains will service? Does he also agree that that takes funding and be stopping if they stop at times when people do not a forward-thinking strategy, and that more of both want to travel. It is a fundamental flaw.Frankly,Transport must go into the rail network in his area and into public for the North should be renamed “Transport for Leeds, transport in general throughout the United Kingdom? Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool” because it clearly does not seriously consider representations from anywhere Mr Jones: I agree with the hon. Member.Chester-le-Street north of York. in my constituency is a commuter town for Teesside and The ongoing effects have had an economic impact, as Tyneside, and it relies on good public transport. the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned. The timetable got worse, and by January it had still This is not just about the frustration of individuals who not been fixed. Between 1 January 2020 and 24 January find that trains have been cancelled, because there is an 2020, 17 TransPennine services were out of action. The equal economic impact. As I said in my previous debate, managing director of TransPennine said that performance people have had to give up jobs or not accept promotions was “not up to scratch”, but I think some of my because they cannot get into work, and families who constituents would use more forceful language to describe want to come back to look after their children find it it. The Department for Transport said that it was difficult to do so. That is just not acceptable. “completely unacceptable”, which again is a bit of an I would like Transport for the North to tell me about understatement. another town like Chester-le-Street, where 30,000 people live, that has such a poor service and is totally disregarded. Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab): I congratulate The facts speak for themselves, because train usage at my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He is Chester-le-Street is actually declining—it dropped by absolutely correct. It is not just in North Durham but in more than 9% between 2017 and 2019—and my hon. my constituency that the services are a disgrace. The Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame Morris) trains are often filthy and they often have only two saw usage at Seaham drop by 2.5%. There is this great carriages so people cannot get on to them. We were mantra that we should be getting people out of cars and promised that the ancient Pacer trains would be replaced on to public transport, but the mess with the operation by Sprinter trains, but they are actually trains of the of the timetable is driving people off the railways, and same age. How can we address the problem of the that cannot be good for congestion in Tyneside and regional disparities and level up on transport infrastructure Teesside. investment in rail services, given the terrible state of the Turning to the point raised by the hon. Member for services and the terrible record that we have to cope with Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), I have to say at the moment? that TransPennine is appalling. I hate using the term, Mr Jones: My hon. Friend makes a good point. We but it is not fit for purpose. It could not run the have seen a lot of promises recently about investment in proverbial in a brewery if it was given the instructions. transport infrastructure in the north, but there is a It does not care about passengers. There is no information combination of two things here. It is about cash, but it when services are cancelled. People turn up and they are is also about competence in running the network. Before told the train is late, and then it is just cancelled, leaving we start opening up new lines, we need to ensure that people to their own devices. No information or alternative the existing ones work properly. The franchising system buses are provided. The situation is not down to any in this country has clearly failed. His constituency, like lack of trying, because I have raised the matter directly mine, is next to two large conurbations, Tyneside and with TransPennine officials, including at a public meeting Teesside, and his constituents should be able to travel I held with them two years ago where they said they there easily.Again, if it was in the south-east of England, would provide information, but they just do not care. they would be able to do so. Their attitude stinks. I thought April fools’ day had come early last week Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I thank when TransPennine put out its stakeholder newsletter. I the hon. Member for securing this important debate. I do not know whether any other colleagues received it, agree that the TransPennine service has been dire. It was but it included a big photograph showing how proud it already the second-worst performing franchise in the was to win rail operator of the year at the business country, but in December it got much worse. Only half travel awards. All I can say is that I would hate to see the trains were on time, and 33% were either significantly what the competition was if TransPennine won, and it is late or cancelled. Does he agree that there should be a quite clear that the judges did not speak to many of my more punitive system of fines to focus the attention of constituents or those of many colleagues. It was a the management and to ensure that these services run further insult when TransPennine announced on social on time? media that from this week, it is going to stop people buying tickets on its trains, saying that if people get on Mr Jones: I will come on to my response to TransPennine, without a ticket, they will be fined. but the underlying problem is how the timetable was Since the ticket office was closed, Chester-le-Street drawn up. Durham County Council clearly indicated station only has ticket machines on the southbound what it wanted to see at Chester-le-Street, a growing platform, and they are often not working, but people commuter town, only to find that services were taken getting on the train without a ticket will be fined. away. When I wrote to the Transport Minister, I received In the last week, two constituents have complained to a letter saying, “Well, you’ve got more stopping services.” me that they have bought tickets on trains, but have We have, but not at the times when people actually want been treated in a threatening manner and told that in 289 Rail Services: North-East England4 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: North-East England 290 future they will be fined. I am sorry, but if the company north of the region. Without a good rail service they cannot maintain a network and provide the service, it is cannot do that. What they want is not warm words or an insult to my constituents, and other travellers, to political promises of funding tomorrow: they want make such threats. My constituents do not want threats. action now. They want trains to turn up on time and, in some cases, to turn up at all. 7.34 pm The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton asked what The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Chris the answer is. I have to say that TransPennine needs the Heaton-Harris): I thank the right hon. Member for franchise taken away. Northern has had its franchise North Durham (Mr Jones) for securing this debate on taken away in the last few weeks, and we need to follow. rail services in the north-east and I thank all Members Ironically, at Chester-le-Street, the trains that turn up who have contributed to what has been quite an informative on time have actually been Northern, which I know is debate. not the experience of other colleagues. If Northern has I bumped into the right hon. Gentleman earlier today, had the franchise removed, so should TransPennine. and I looked up the report of his previous speech on What will happen to the investment that Norther earmarked this matter, on 15 January. I note that he has not really for improvements at Chester-le-Street station, because had to do much work to improve his words, because it is there is clearly some doubt about what will happen very similar to the speech that he unfortunately had to now? TransPennine has been given enough chances. As make a year ago. I said earlier, its attitude stinks. It is not customer-focused A number of issues were raised, which I shall address. and it is having a detrimental effect on many of my I would like to reassure the House that the Government’s constituents. priority is for the country’s trains to run on time, and to Finally, I want to raise a broader issue. I know that in drive growth by giving local leaders a greater say in the the near future—perhaps this week—the Government running of their railway. As such, we are investing will make a decision on HS2. Personally, I have never billions of pounds in the rail system, from which passengers been a great fan. I do not think it will affect many of my can benefit. The right hon. Gentleman was slightly constituents, apart from swallowing large amounts of dismissive of that investment, but it is worthwhile investment public investment over the next decades, but there is an in infrastructure and will level up the country. issue that the Government could address now. We have I note that a number of other hon. Members intervened had various promises thrown around about opening the —the hon. Members for Hartlepool (Mike Hill), for Beeching closure lines and others in the past few weeks, Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Easington (Grahame but if HS2 is to benefit the north-east—look past York, Morris) and for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). because there is more to the north than York and A couple of right hon. Gentlemen would have loved to Leeds—what is needed is the upgrade of the east coast intervene in the debate but could not—my right hon. Friend main line. Without that, HS2, when it finally does the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill) arrive—if it ever does—will not be able to increase capacity because he could not be here, and the right hon. Member from the north of York to further north. for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown) because he is the Opposition Chief Whip. I take the opportunity to Mike Hill: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way record their concern about what has been going on with again. First, I wish to correct the record as I ambitiously TransPennine Express services. stated that Hartlepool was the third busiest station in As the right hon. Member for North Durham said, the north-east: I meant on Teesside. Important to that is my Department said recently that those services had the condition and state of that line. The Durham coast been unacceptable, and we believe that is the case. In the line has needed an upgrade for years and years. Does he December 2019 timetable change, TPE planned to increase agree that that investment is absolutely necessary? the number of calls that it made at Chester-le-Street from 21 to 23 per day. That included a new southbound Mr Jones: I do, and my fear about HS2 has always 7.52 am service to help passengers travelling at peak been that investment will be sucked out of the rest of times to Durham, Darlington, York, Leeds, Manchester the network. Although we have now got the magic and Manchester Airport from his constituency. money tree—if not an entire equatorial rain forest of Unfortunately, following delays to the introduction of money trees—from the Government for HS2, plus all new rolling stock, a temporary timetable was put in the investment in lines such as my hon. Friend’s, we will place, which impacted TPE trains scheduled to call at have to wait and see what actually happens. It is important Chester-le-Street. I have been advised that the full December that if the north-east is to benefit from HS2, that timetable will be reinstated in the next few weeks. investment is put into capacity in the east coast main Chester-le-Street is a station served by TransPennine line north of York. The Government could do that now, Express services on the Manchester Airport-Newcastle and it would have a beneficial effect for the travelling route, and since 20 December 2019 TPE has extended public by helping capacity, and that should be addressed the Liverpool-Newcastle service to and from Edinburgh. if we do have the announcement on HS2. That service, when it functions properly, will provide My constituents are frankly fed up with the service Morpeth with an hourly service for much of the day to that they have received from the rail services from and from Edinburgh for the first time in years—something Chester-le-Street. My broader concern is the one raised that has been welcomed, if it were only to be delivered earlier about the economic impact on my constituents, on a regular basis. because Chester-le-Street is a great place to live. People TPE also provides a through morning service from move there because it is a great place to bring up Chester-le-Street to Edinburgh. During this month, TPE families, with good schools, but people need to be able will have 13 of its Nova 1 trains in service to and from to travel to jobs in the south of the region and in the Newcastle, providing an inter-city level of comfort and 291 Rail Services: North-East England4 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: North-East England 292

[Chris Heaton-Harris] TPE is gradually re-introducing some pre-cancelled services. On 3 February, yesterday, 22 of the 32 Liverpool additional seating per train. Those trains will call at to Edinburgh/Edinburgh to Liverpool journeys were Chester-le-Street. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, reintroduced, and on 17 February the remaining 10 journeys Chester-le-Street is on the east coast main line, which is will be reintroduced. On 30 March, the Northallerton a very busy line, thus limiting any extra services that and Darlington skip stops will also be reintroduced. TPE could possibly provide. However, because of the late delivery of and technical However, we all know of the issues that the service issues experienced by some of its new trains, and the has had in the past couple of months. Issues with unavailability of train crews as a result of shortened training drivers and getting the rolling stock in on time timescales for training, TPE customers are experiencing have led to all sorts of different issues—for example, an unacceptable level of service cancellations and disruption. with signalling. TPE is, therefore, compensating some customers for the disruption. Passengers who held a season ticket between Mr Kevan Jones: I accept that there have been issues 1 October and 31 December in 2019 will be eligible for a with it being a busy line, but the new timetable took out, 3% rebate, which will more than cover the 2.8% average for example, the 8.17 am northbound to Newcastle and increase on regulated fares. In the short term, from the 5.20 pm southbound, both of which were very busy yesterdayTPE has improved its compensation arrangements with commuters; the two most popular trains were so that passengers will get money back from the price of taken out of the timetable. For what reason? their ticket if trains are delayed by 15 minutes or more.

Chris Heaton-Harris: I guess that is a question for the Mr Jones: Will the Minister have a look at the way in franchise to answer for itself, but I completely understand which TPE pays its compensation, as this is complicated the right hon. Gentleman’s frustration, and that of his and people just give up when they do it. TPE might make constituents who would like to use a service to go to and those claims about compensation, but it is not actually from work at times when ordinary people would be doing it in practice. commuting. Chris Heaton-Harris: I will happily look into how Grahame Morris: I know the Minister is in a terribly compensation is paid to TPE customers. I understand difficult position. I do not know whether the theme completely the right hon. Gentleman’s point about how tune should be “Things can only get better”, but the poor the information to TPE customers has been. theme of the Adjournment debate is rail services in the Something that we would think would be quite easy to north-east. Northern provides a once-an-hour service get right, and that rail passengers across the piece for my constituents, whose only station is Seaham, and appreciate, is honest information on why services cannot it consists of two carriages. My right hon. Friend the run. A bit more transparency could help to lessen some Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) shared some of the anger that is quite rightly felt by passengers when statistics that had been produced today, showing that they are literally left in the dark. passenger numbers are falling at Seaham station. The truth of the matter is that the trains are so packed Let me turn to the franchise itself. We have been clear people cannot get on at peak times, particularly at with the operator that it must take urgent steps to weekends. So, perversely, the figures are showing that address the poor performance.If necessary,my Department rail usage is declining, whereas it would increase if we will take action under the terms set out in the franchise had more capacity. agreement. As I mentioned earlier, over the next two months TPE will reinstate the services that it took out Chris Heaton-Harris: “Things can only get better” is as part of the temporary timetable that followed the the most new Labour thing the hon. Gentleman has ever issues with the delayed introduction of rolling stock in said, but I completely understand the point he is making. December. The Secretary of State and I recently met the In fact, it is very Kevin Costner: if you build it, they will managing director of the franchise, Network Rail and come. That is the case with the railways nowadays. the manufacturers of the new trains, CAF and Hitachi. I was trying to talk about the problems that there Wedid not use Anglo-Saxon language, as many customers have been with services. As right hon. and hon. Members might have been using recently, but we made it perfectly in the Chamber well know, to try to correct problems clear that they must take urgent steps to improve their with the service within timetable, TPE has been stopping services. services at York, meaning that lines further north to I did not know about the issues with ticket machines places such as Scarborough and Whitby, Thirsk and at the right hon. Gentleman’s local station. I will take Malton and others have not been provided with the that away, find out a bit more and come back to him, if timetabled service that people would expect. that is okay. If a ticket machine is broken, we would TPE is investing heavily in its rolling stock. As part of always expect the train operating company to use the its £500 million investment in trains, it is currently discretion available to it. We would not expect people to introducing three new fleets into passenger service. Trains be charged penalty fares in such circumstances, so I will in all three fleets will be operating across the north and happily take that issue away. into Scotland by the end of this year, providing 13 million I will check and come back to the right hon. Gentleman, extra seats a year. We hope to be able to address some of but I would expect the improvements to the station by the capacity problems that hon. Members have outlined, Northern to continue to go ahead as normal. I know and TPE will have 44 brand new, state-of-the-art trains, that he is fairly sceptical about the opening of new lines, with five carriages each, which will provide an opportunity but I have been contacted by a local activist near to the for new routes and services, and increase capacity by right hon. Gentleman called Christopher Howarth who more than 80% on a seven-day-a-week timetable. is keen to see the railway between Sunderland and 293 Rail Services: North-East England4 FEBRUARY 2020 Rail Services: North-East England 294

Durham reopened. As a viaduct fan, I can say that to come back and go through all this again because we there is one of the most beautiful viaducts I have ever will have sorted this: the new rolling stock will be seen along that route, so I very much hope that those working properly, the timetables will work properly plans will come to fruition. and, indeed, all the drivers will be trained appropriately. I thank the right hon. Gentleman for the way he has Question put and agreed to. gone about this debate. He has been as positive as he can be and quite rightly demanding for his constituents. 7.46 pm I hope and expect that in a year’s time he will not have House adjourned.

1WH 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 2WH Decarbonising Transport about the funding available in Greater Manchester for Westminster Hall the clean freight and clean bus funds? We have good transport and clean air strategies, which were launched Tuesday 4 February 2020 by the Mayor of Greater Manchester, but we need money to help small businesses and our bus network to become green. [CAROLINE NOKES in the Chair] Net Zero Targets and Damian Hinds: I know the hon. Lady’s part of the world well, having stood for Parliament there in the Decarbonising Transport mid-2000s. Buses are an important part of the overall mix, and for Greater Manchester, although I will let the 9.30 am Minister deal with her point in his own way. Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con): I beg to On electric vehicles, there is a wide range of Government move, support and good cross-industry co-operation. There is That this House has considered net zero targets and decarbonising a subsidy programme for vehicles, home charging points transport. and workplace charging, and there are grants to local It is a genuine pleasure to see you in the Chair, authorities for a number of different purposes. Ms Nokes, and to have an opportunity to serve under your chairmanship. Tackling climate change is the defining Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab): Electric vehicles challenge of our age. In the developed world—the rich need electrical steel, and the only electrical steel maker world, with our higher per capita emissions—our in the UK—the Orb works in Newport, which was responsibility is all the greater. I was proud last year owned by Tata—was mothballed just before Christmas. when the UK became the first advanced economy to set Does the right hon. Member agree that supporting our in legislation a date for net zero, and I am pleased today steel industry at this crucial time will be vital for an that we are taking a further practical step by bringing end-to-end supply chain in this country? forward the phase-out of petrol and diesel vehicles to 2035. Damian Hinds: Steel is of great importance, and the The UK has been decarbonising more quickly than hon. Lady knows better than most people how important any other G20 country, although one would not know it is to our industrial base. It is also important to the that from hearing most commentary in this country. development of many green technologies. As she knows, One would think that it is because of some accounting steel has its own challenges. It is a very energy-intensive methodology, the cunning exclusion of some categories, sector; in time, hydrogen technologies and others might or the financial crash of 2007-08. One would think that help in that regard, and we need to ensure that we it all happened before 2010 and that nothing has improved maximise our efforts towards them. since, or that it was because we have exported all our We now have over 22,000 public charging points for emissions to somewhere else in the world. But no, this electric vehicles. There is a particular concentration in country has made good and sustained progress on London, but also in places such as Dundee. We have decarbonisation under Governments of both types. The 125 rapid charge points per 100 km of highway, compared greatest part of that progress has been made on energy with the EU average of 25. In 2018, the UK was the decarbonisation, and the reality is that there is a limit second-largest market in Europe for ultra low emission on how much further we can go in that area with cars and the fourth-largest market for electric cars, and current technology, because of the intermittent nature one fifth of battery electric cars sold in Europe had of the sources—the sun and the wind. It will change as been made here in the UK. For actual sales as a percentage battery technology improves, but that is the situation of the total car market, we were above France and today. We have made good progress, but it is not enough. Germany but, as colleagues will know, we were below To hit our net zero 2050 target, we need to increase the some of the very high-percentage countries, particularly decrease, as it were, in our rate of emissions by about the Scandinavian nations and others such as the 30% compared with what we have managed per annum Netherlands. It is the growth curve—the year-on-year since 1990. Partly because of the success in energy, growth, albeit from a small base—that is particularly transport is now the biggest single source of emissions. encouraging. There are many different aspects of decarbonising Alongside changes in electric vehicle technology, a lot transport, and we have only 90 minutes for this debate. of other relevant changes are happening in society and Other colleagues might talk about active travel, such as the economy. We have been changing the way we shop, walking and cycling, or about shipping, on-demand and how and where we work, and those things potentially buses, the electrification of rail, heavy goods vehicles, have material implications for the number, type and the development of autonomous vehicles, alternative jet length of people’s journeys. The product itself—the fuel technology or what could be the huge potential, performance of cars—has been improving. At the same eventually, of hydrogen—and it would be a turn-up for time, the charging technology has been evolving with the books if nobody mentioned either HS2 or Heathrow things such as induction pads. We have the development airport. We could talk about many different aspects, but of autonomous vehicle technology, which is likely to be I will concentrate on roads, which is the biggest category, particularly significant in the future for heavy goods and specifically cars. vehicles. Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab): I congratulate I suggest that the most important change of all is one the right hon. Member on securing the debate, and I that has already started: a change in how we buy our agree with him on road transport. Will he join me in own transportation. “Mobility as a service” includes urging the Minister to let us know as quickly as possible everything from Boris bikes to car clubs. In the car 3WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 4WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport [Damian Hinds] Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP): The right hon. Gentleman is making valid points about the market, it includes the growth of personal contract roll-out of electric vehicles, but in Norway sales of purchase plans and, significantly, personal contract hire electric vehicles is hitting 60%, which shows that it can plans. Why do I say that is so significant? Is it not just a be done and the anxieties can be overcome. Is it not a way of financing a vehicle? It is significant because it matter of looking at what Norway is doing and how its changes the way that people think about the cost of a Government have incentivised electric vehicles and helped vehicle. Historically, people would compare the sticker consumers get over any such anxieties? price of a car separately from the monthly running cost, but with different types of paying for mobility, the Damian Hinds: That is perfectly worthwhile and formula has changed significantly. reasonable. In preparation for this debate, I looked at countries such as Norwayand other Scandinavian countries. Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab): I thank the It is usually instructive to start with the more comparable right hon. Member for securing the debate, and he is countries—those of a similar size and complexity, with making some important points. He says we need to a similar industrial base, traditions and so on—but the change the way we do things. Does he agree that we hon. Gentleman is quite right to identify that Norway in need a modal shift away from cars and towards less particular has a high penetration rate of sales, which is also carbon-emitting transport? Buses are key, and we need linked to very high differences in the taxation regime. to shift bus pricing to invest in that sort of transport. If I want to talk briefly about the shift to electric vehicle two or three people are travelling together in Sheffield, technology and what I would say is overwhelmingly a it is cheaper for them to get a taxi than to go on a bus. consumer acceptance challenge. The shift in the way Does he agree that we have to change that by investing people own cars, towards personal contract hire, is a properly in our bus services? great opportunity to convey how the whole-life cost compares for different groups of consumers, rather than comparing the sticker price of one car against Damian Hinds: As ever, the hon. Member makes an another. It is also a way of allaying fears about residual important and incisive point. A modal shift is clearly value and battery performance. Allied to that, when it part of the response to this issue, but it will not be the comes to cost, it would be helpful—I realise this is not whole response. As I mentioned earlier, buses are an in the Minister’s gift—for the Treasury to give a clear important factor too, but there will always be a need for forward view on the vehicle excise duty regime so that domestic passenger transport—cars, as we tend to call people can project into the future. them. In a constituency such as mine, which is very rural and spread out, people need cars if they want to Clearly,these technologies eventually have to be subsidy- go to work. Making cars as environmentally friendly as free. It has to be business as usual, so subsidies will have possible, in terms of both carbon emissions and air to be withdrawn, but doing so smoothly will be of great quality, is an important goal. benefit to the industry and the consumer. The experience from elsewhere shows that if subsidies are suddenly It feels as though we are on the cusp of some quite withdrawn, there tends to be a massive spike in demand significant change or what might be called a watershed just beforehand, followed by a return. That is obviously moment. With the conversion to electric vehicles, however, not good for meeting production schedules. we are up against some quite significant challenges On the infrastructure network, there is a lot that the from a consumer perspective. The first is cost. There is a Government can do through a mixture of regulation gap between the cost of electric vehicles and the cost of and their convening power. We need to do better and go internal combustion engine vehicles. Although that gap further on full roaming and interoperability. We can do is narrowing all the time, however, I do not think that, a lot better on the visibility of charging points. There in general, the sector or the public sector has yet made has been a lot of focus on visibility to users of electric the clear and compelling case for how close those costs cars, but I am actually less worried about them right are—looking not at the purchase price, but at the total now than everybody else. The point is that to get cost of ownership over the car’s lifetime—as well as it consumer acceptance, non-users of electric cars need to could have been made. know that there are plenty of places to charge them. The second challenge is so-called range anxiety—“What happens if I leave home and can’t get back again Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC): The right hon. Gentleman because the battery runs out?” That is a perfectly good, is making a very important point. It is especially important rational fear, part of which will be addressed by in rural areas, such as those that he and I represent, that improvements in infrastructure. As an aside, although people who have not looked at electric vehicles in the scientists would say that there is no benefit to having a past know that it is feasible for them to make that shift. spare battery, and that we should just make a bigger battery, I wonder what the psychological effect might be Damian Hinds: That is absolutely right, and showing of having one. it on sat-nav tech is important. There are some good The third perfectly rational worry is about the car’s sat-nav applications, such as Zap-Map, but it is difficult residual value,particularly as a result of battery degradation. to guarantee that such things are absolutely comprehensive. That is particularly rational, given what we have been told There is some old-fashioned technology that could be over the years about mobile phone and laptop batteries— improved, such as common signage. National brand we have been told, “This is the generation that will not partnerships mean that people know that whenever lose any of its performance,” and it has never turned out they go to any branch of supermarket X, if it has a car to be true. Again, if the car is not owned in the same park, they will always find a minimum of x number of way, that worry should be somewhat dissipated. charging points. 5WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 6WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport Alex Chalk (Cheltenham) (Con): My right hon. Friend Most important of all on the issue of consumer is making a powerful speech about the importance of acceptance is the fact that the product has to be in the electric cars and how we meet our net-zero targets. Does consideration set. Whatever other cars consumers look he agree that we cannot escape the fact that electric at buying or hiring, they should at least think about an vehicles are themselves pregnant with carbon? A huge electric vehicle. Therefore, just getting people behind amount of carbon goes into manufacturing them. One the wheel of one of these cars to try them out is a great of the best and most effective ways to meet our net-zero opportunity. I wonder about the potential of a mass target its not to use vehicles at all, and to ride bikes as test-drive campaign across the country. much as possible, particularly in urban areas such as We should also think, perhaps less ambitiously, about Cheltenham. Just 2% of our journeys are on bikes; in the role of the dealer. We have concentrated an awful lot the Netherlands, it is closer to 35%. on manufacturers and consumers, but we have not thought much about the car salespeople. Damian Hinds: My hon. Friend is not only an advocate for walking and cycling but, in his high-vis jacket, a very Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab): Will visible advertisement for it. He is absolutely right, and the right hon. Gentleman give way? that is another type of modal shift. Holland is in a slightly different position, in that it is a lot flatter than this country, which makes a huge difference. That should Damian Hinds: I am not sure how many colleagues not take away from the fact that there are plenty of intend to speak, but I have taken quite a few interventions places in this country—London is one of them—that and did not plan to go on quite so long. I will take my are pretty flat, and where there could be more cycling. cue from Ms Nokes, but am very happy to give way. Throughout our country, there is an opportunity for more walking and cycling. Those things have great Lilian Greenwood: The right hon. Gentleman spoke benefits beyond decarbonisation, in terms of health, about the importance of ensuring that people think fitness and being outdoors. about purchasing an ultra-low emissions vehicle when they buy a car. Many people buy second-hand cars, a Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): To lot of which are ex-fleet. Does he agree that if the echo the point made so well by the hon. Member for Government want more fleet purchases, they should Cheltenham (Alex Chalk), something like 80% of journeys consider their own fleet buying? Ensuring that fleet are less than 2.5 miles. Therefore, if we can make a managers buy ultra-low emissions vehicles will, in turn, modal shift, so that that type of journey is made by feed the second-hand market. The Government have an bike, on foot or by public transport, we will make a important role to play as a large fleet operator. huge difference. Damian Hinds: The hon. Lady tees me up with precision Damian Hinds: I will let that point hang in mid-air and grace. I was just coming on to the role of Government because, like the points made by my hon. Friend the and the wider public sector. The Government car service Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) and the hon. has bought a lot of electric vehicles. Something of Member for Ceredigion (Ben Lake), it is spot on. Those premium significance is what I would call totemic fleets. things are all part of the mix. Seeing police officers driving electric vehicles has quite On electric vehicles and the infrastructure network, an effect on people’s perceptions of the performance of there is quite a spread in the concentration of publicly those cars. available charging points in local areas. That is partly Most of all, we need debate, conversation and analysis because some areas have more on-street parking than centred not on the machine and the technology, but on others. Some have more off-street parking, and we people and the different segments of the population would expect more private charging points there. The whom we need to persuade to take up electric cars. We conventional wisdom would suggest that we should need to think about who the first target is and, although look at the places that have a low concentration and try fleet buyers are an obvious and important segment, to get them up. Actually, I think there is an argument beyond that, should the target be drivers who have the the other way: places that already have quite a high highest mileage per year, or drivers who change their car concentration of charging points benefit from network most often? Evidence from consumer surveys suggests effects, and we could concentrate on building up the that it is much easier to persuade someone to get an number of electric vehicle users there. They are in very electric vehicle as the second car in a two-car household different types of places. London has a significant than as the first car—we need to think about that. The concentration, but so does Milton Keynes, Dundee, requirements of commuting and the school run, for Oxford, West Berkshire and South Lakeland. A wide example, are very different. variety of places have relatively high concentrations of I have spoken for longer than I anticipated, but I will charging points relative to the population. briefly mention something slightly off-topic that could On regulation, I hope that the Minister will be able to reduce the overall number of journeys. In the last few say more about the required availability of charging years, there has been a big growth in home shopping, points in new-build homes. I also hope that he will say with vans driving around delivering parcels, some of something about electricity tariffs and ensuring that all which are very small, to people’s homes. I welcome the domestic consumers can benefit from lower-cost electricity e-cargobike initiative, which seeks a modal shift to overnight, when the market rate is cheaper, in order to electric bikes for the last mile of deliveries, but I wonder charge vehicles. I think this is outside the remit of the whether we could be more ambitious. Amazon lockers Department for Transport, but if fleet buyers create an are fine for Amazon, but they are a proprietary facility. extra surge of demand for electricity in one particular Our massive network of post office retail outlets has area, who bears the cost for upgrading the kit? potential as a hub and spoke system for home shopping 7WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 8WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport [Damian Hinds] I am grateful for the opportunity to talk about the green transformation that our transport system needs. purchases to be dropped off and collected, which also More than anything else, we need affordable and accessible bring much-needed business and footfall to post offices. public transport, with electric buses and zero-carbon That was slightly off-topic, so I will return to the trains, right across the country. We need to make good broader point. green investments now, and to stop making dirty This country has an important and special role to investments. play in decarbonisation. As well as domestic action, we City residents already emit far less carbon from travel. have a role through international development and Londoners’ transport emissions are less than half the climate finance. We showed great leadership in Paris for UK average. That is because we have a decent bus, tube COP 21, and we have in COP 26 another great opportunity and train system—we have to invest those systems to to convene and make global progress. create the benefits in our cities and towns—but we still So much can be done locally. Many councils are have to make London’s transport greener. doing innovative things, including my own in East We must stop making dirty investments. The dirty Hampshire, with walking and cycling initiatives, plans investment closest to my constituency is City airport in to plant a tree for every resident and local housing Newham, from which I am sure that many hon. Members development, particularly in the town of Bordon. Like have flown. It is a lovely little airport, I will admit, but colleagues in the Chamber, I have local groups in my I have constantly opposed its expansion. As a young area that show remarkable leadership, starting with woman, I even went to the public inquiry to advocate children. I am always impressed that schoolchildren are against it being built. I heard all the rubbish that showing thought leadership on climate change. We have residents and my friends and neighbours were told great local groups, such as the Alton climate action about how the airport would be contained, would not network and, soon, the Petersfield climate action network. grow and would not impact on their lives. When I visited The greening campaign began in my constituency my mum and dad in the block of flats where I grew up, back in 2008, and was all about helping individual however, the back of my throat was coated with fuel—I families and households to know what simple and practical could taste it. Dad has had throat cancer and mum has things they could do to help tackle climate change. The had breast cancer, although I am sure that none of that campaign eventually spread to 100 towns and villages is related. far and wide. Colleagues may disagree, but in terms of It is not just about airports. I want to focus on civic society action on climate change, East Hampshire another big local decision: the Silvertown tunnel. In is perhaps the most active area in the country. Members east London, we have a problem with public transport of Parliament can play a really important role to make connections across the river. Some might say, “Who those things happen. wants to go to the south side?”, but some people do and We should recognise success in decarbonisation in the lack of connections is a major problem. The lack of the UK, while acknowledging that we need to step up decent public transport links means that people drive—they our efforts. We must never underestimate the scale of see no other option. The Blackwall tunnel and all the what we need to do—I doubt that anybody here in roads around it are hugely congested; the queues go on Westminster Hall is likely to do so—but we should not for absolutely miles, pumping out carbon and deadly suggest that nothing has been achieved, because if we pollution all the while. The new tunnel is not the solution. do that, people begin to feel disheartened and we will I am told that building Silvertown will cost an estimated lose public confidence and engagement. £1 billion, using a private finance initiative, so local residents will have to pay for the construction of the Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): new tunnel through tolls. To ensure that the tolls pay, Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? we will also toll the Blackwall tunnel and probably the Rotherhithe tunnel, while the crossing down at Thurrock Damian Hinds: I am sorry, I had better not. is also tolled. So, the people of east London, where People need to know that there is a big problem, but child poverty is massive and poverty in general is undeniably we are making progress and need to accelerate that high, will pay for the joy of going south of the river, progress. They need to know that we can and will do while the people of west London can pop across a what is necessary. Ultimately, countries like ours need number of bridges. There are also good transport links to do more than our fair share because people look to in west London—but not in the east. That, however, is us for leadership. We had our industrial revolution first, not the only reason I am against Silvertown. I am so it makes sense to have our decarbonisation revolution against the tunnel because its construction alone will first too. Transport must be at the heart of that. cause massive carbon emissions: more than 153,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide, the same as the total emissions of Several hon. Members rose— more than 28,000 UK residents last year. If everything that the tunnel’s big business backers Caroline Nokes (in the Chair): Only five Members say about the construction of the tunnel were true, at wish to speak, so I hope that each will be generous with least there might be some benefits from having it once it the time that they leave for others. I call Lyn Brown. is built. I am afraid I do not believe that, and I am sure that many Members in the Chamber would not believe 9.56 am it either. We know that when a road is put in, people use it. They see it as an even better opportunity to get Ms Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab): I am very grateful into their car and to drive and, before long, that road to serve under your chairship for the first time, Ms Nokes, too is congested. I am not the only one who does not and I look forward to doing so again in future. believe in those benefits, because on the record are my 9WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 10WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich diesel and petrol vehicles, and the aviation sector moving (Matthew Pennycook) and Newham, Hackney and towards net zero by 2050. Over the past couple of Lewisham Councils. We all oppose the tunnel, as do decades, it has been wonderful to see the UK at the more and more of my residents as they find out what is forefront of the major developed economies of the happening on their doorstep. world in slashing its carbon emissions, and I hope that The truth is that the roads leading up to the tunnel that continues. are already massively congested, and no one is planning I will pick up on a few things, the first local to North to widen them, so the congestion is likely to continue. In West Durham. We are without any form of rail network a best-case scenario, the queues will possibly die down at all. In order for my constituents to move towards in the immediate lead-up to the tunnel—to begin with. decarbonised travel, we need better bus networks for Even if that happens, however, I fear that all the extra our rural communities and in particular for Consett traffic will simply be diverted to a bottleneck further and the conurbations around it in the north of my down the road towards Barking and out to the east, or constituency—one of the largest conurbations in the on to our already choked local roads, as people attempt country without any form of rail access. I am campaigning to divert around the problems. Congestion might therefore for the Government to look at rail in the area there as not fall at all, despite the new tolls on all the crossings in part of their scheme to reopen lines. the east—I think I mentioned that, but it is a bit of a Consett had four railway lines in 1950 but has none bugbear. today. Rail is imperative not only for the environment Why is big business so in favour of a tunnel at but for productivity and to link Consett and the surrounding Silvertown? It will be taller than the Blackwall tunnel, villages into the northern powerhouse. We need to be which was built almost 150 years ago, I think, and linked properly to the national rail network, whether by massive lorries will therefore be able to go through it light or heavy rail. from south to north. Also, those heavy goods vehicles, unlike bicycles, have been promised a special lane of Alan Brown: The hon. Gentleman is making a good their own—they will share the bus lane. HGVs, the big point about the lack of rail connectivity in his constituency, nasty polluters on our roads, will get special concessions and that is replicated pretty much across the UK. Does to get through the new tunnel. We know why they are so he agree that the UK Government’s £500 million Beeching keen to see HGVs going through the Silvertown tunnel: replacement fund is totally inadequate to increase the conveniently, a three-storey, 24-hour warehouse and rail connectivity required? lorry park is planned for not far away from it. That will be at least 2,500 extra lorries a day from that distribution Mr Holden: The entire purpose of the fund, in my centre alone. understanding, is for a couple of rail schemes that are The stakes are high in such decisions—we all accept almost ready to go and for an investigation into further that. In Newham, 16,000 children attend schools close schemes. I agree 100% that the fund will not put many to the feeder roads in Silvertown, with a similar number lines back in place, but for that to happen they would in Greenwich. We already have high air pollution at have to be shovel-ready. The funding that the Minister illegal levels. Newham, where Silvertown is—in case is dealing with is to investigate and to conduct feasibility anyone was in any doubt—has the worst toxic air studies for a lot of those lines. I desperately hope that quality in the country. The British Heart Foundation my line from Gateshead to Consett will be one of them. estimates that breathing the air is as bad for health as My right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire smoking 159 cigarettes annually,stunting child development also made an important point about walking and cycling. and leading to 96 premature deaths every year. The Derwent Walk replaced our rail line—as many The impacts are not just local. This is not only about Members know, when rail lines were dug up, they were Silvertown but about the type of decisions that we are often replaced by walking and cycling lanes. I am keen making. We need to make the right decisions now in for those to be kept in place, so that the rail line has order to prevent a climate disaster. We need to protect walking and cycling alongside it. That is important, our children from these outrageous decisions that will because the car parks at stations are already clogged significantly impact on their health. I plead to anyone and overcrowded, as other hon. Members know if like who will listen: please, think again: stop expanding me they commute from far away. As much as possible, I Heathrow or City airports, stop the Silvertown tunnel want people to walk and cycle to stations, to help move and do not build that lorry park. Let us invest in green towards net zero, in particular as regards transport transport links instead. emissions. Caroline Nokes (in the Chair): I now put Members on In my constituency, too, we have a huge amount of a five-minute time limit. new building. We are one of the fastest-growing parts of the north-east. I would like to see all new-build homes having electric charging points for cars, as mentioned. 10.5 am We have Nissan in the north-east, which I visited recently; Mr Richard Holden (North West Durham) (Con): I it is making a massive move towards electric car production. congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for East Now that the Government have announced that they Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on securing this debate. It will introduce the target, it is important that new-build is an interesting subject, and one that I had personal homes all have charging points in place. experience of not that long ago, when I was a special My final point relates to vehicle excise duty; we need adviser in the Department for Transport. to ensure a stable system in the long term. Vehicle excise I am proud that the Government have set the net zero duty on motor homes, which are produced in my target for 2050, and glad that today we saw two further constituency, increased by 705% in September last year, moves in that direction: the 2035 target to stop new from £260 to over £2,000. That means that it is less 11WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 12WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport [Mr Holden] weather or the hills. There are now electric bicycles and, because Bath is quite steep, I bought myself one, as did affordable to buy new motor homes, which obviously my husband, and we got rid of our second car. Those are cleaner and have Euro 6 engines. It will push people things are important considerations for households. towards foreign flights and travel rather than domestic The main hindrance is not the weather or the topography, travel. In the UK, the average motor home travels but safety. As a parent, I was scared to let my children between 3,000 and 6,000 miles. To tax it as a car is cycle, as are lots of parents. One of the biggest contributors madness, and hurts domestic tourism to places such as to air pollution and surface transport in my constituency Weardale in my constituency, other places across the is the school run. north-east and other rural parts of the UK. We have been consulting young people about how I urge the Minister to push his Treasury colleagues to they would like to travel. Their preferred mode of look at these changes to vehicle excise duty, which came transport would be cycling independently, but the parents through last year from European Union regulation do not want that, so they take them to school by car. 2018/1832. VED has hit domestic manufacturing. The That creates a vicious circle. The roads in Bath are full production of ever-cleaner motor homes creates 600 jobs of cars during school time—during school holidays in my constituency. It is incredibly important that we they are not—because parents do not allow their children support the motor industry where we can, as well as our to go on the road because it is dangerous. We need to domestic tourism, to reduce international flights. That break that vicious circle. I urge the Government to look will contribute to exactly what we want to see: the at Cycling England’s proposals for how to create safe decarbonisation of our transport economy. cycle routes.

10.11 am Alex Chalk: The coalition Government granted large sums of money—I think £20 million went to Manchester Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve and a similar sum to Leeds and Birmingham—under under your chairship, Ms Nokes. It is important to the cycling city ambition grant scheme, and lots of acknowledge where we have made progress. We do not safety measures were rolled out. The problem is that, in want to discourage our citizens and make them so towns such as Cheltenham, a lot of that learning is not afraid that they cannot get behind the big changes that being rolled out. Does the hon. Lady agree that there is we need to make. It is also important to point out where a role for councils to liaise with one another to ensure we have made no progress at all, namely on surface that safety schemes can be applied? transport. It stubbornly remains one of the biggest contributors to carbon emissions in our country, which is why it is so important that we concentrate on it. A lot Wera Hobhouse: Absolutely; the Lib Dem Bath and of the problem has to do with our focus over decades on North East Somerset Council is looking at how to transport by car. I do not blame anybody; I suspect all provide local leadership, but we also need leadership hon. Members here are motorists, at least part time. from central Government to ensure that councils can The real issue is, how do we achieve a big shift in this fulfil their net zero ambitions. I urge the Government to country when there has been a lot of focus on car look at proposals from Cycling England about safe transport and when there are no proper alternatives? cycle routes, because safety is one of the main reasons that young people do not cycle. If they have not grown It worries me that the Government make a haphazard up cycling, as adults, they do not cycle. We need a big announcement such as that made today about the ban shift to create safe cycling routes. on petrol and diesel cars by 2035 without having a proper plan behind that for infrastructure to support 10.16 am a big shift towards electric vehicles. The Government need to put their mind to that. To give an example, in a James Daly (Bury North) (Con): I congratulate my consultation meeting with Highways England about right hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire new road building in the south-west, which was all well (Damian Hinds) on securing this important debate. and dandy, I said, “All right, you are building new I am going to talk about the X41 bus service. When I roads, but what about the infrastructure that we need was elected, the major issue in Bury North was a bus for fast charging points along our new highways and service that connects the north part of my constituency motorways?” I was told that it was not their problem, so in Ramsbottom with the centre of Manchester—a service who is talking to who about building new roads and the that has been withdrawn because of losses suffered by infrastructure to integrate them with the capacity in our the provider. That service is the only public transport electricity grid? The Government need to put a plan link between central Manchester and the north of my together to ensure that people work on these things in constituency.In London, it would probably take 15 minutes partnership, rather thinking in silos. by public transport to cover the same geography to get Another important issue is how to structure buses to the centre of London. I have one bus that takes the and public transport. I went to Berlin over Christmas, best part of an hour, or an hour and a half when it is but not by plane. Travelling by train on the continent busy. was perfectly competitive, but the bit from London to When the bus provider gave notice of its intention to the channel was incredibly expensive. Unless we change take off the bus service, Transport for Greater Manchester the cost of travel, consumers will go for what is cheapest, shrugged its shoulders. There was no proactiveness and they will continue to fly unless we make train from local authorities to try to save the service. I give journeys a lot more affordable, particularly in this country. that as a practical example of a bus service that takes I am a cyclist, in addition to being a motorist, and motor vehicles off busy motorways and A roads. Local have been for many years and have campaigned for authorities and other relevant bodies are not doing cycling. The main problem in this country is not the enough to support public transport, which is critical for 13WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 14WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport connectivity. Although we may talk nationally—I have the cost of clean air charges will be unsustainable for noticed in this place that we talk generally about money—on them. I hope my hon. Friend the Minister will comment the ground, that bus service matters and continues to on that. matter in my constituency. I am glad to say that the Government supported local MPs to provide assistance 10.22 am to make sure that the service remained. Buses are crucial in my constituency as a link to other Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): It is a pleasure to areas in Greater Manchester. The debate about buses speak in this debate. I congratulate the right hon. Member must be at the forefront of transport discussions in our for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on securing it and area. The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston setting the scene so well. The contributions so far have (Kate Green) spoke about franchising; all Members been pertinent to the debate. representing Greater Manchester want a better bus Our environmental duties are massive, and the more service. I spoke to Transport for Greater Manchester knowledge we have, the more it is incumbent on us to about that. It answered that franchising would guarantee do all we can to safeguard this planet for our children. the level of bus services that we have now. The bus As a Christian, I am well aware that the end will be services in Bury North are rubbish, so I do not want when God ordains it, but we are called to be good that. We need a public transport system that encourages stewards and caretakers of this wonderful planet that people to get out of their vehicles and use the services of has been gifted to us. Over the holidays, I had an good providers such as Transdev. We certainly are not opportunity to do some hunting and shooting over the there at the moment. farm with my son, granddaughter and friends—I declare I will touch on another of the hon. Lady’s points: the an interest as a farmer—and while the fresh country air clean air charge, which is affecting Greater Manchester. was sharp and cold, it none the less reminded me of Some £116 million of funding has been provided to how important what we do is. Later that night, there assist the region’s freight and logistics, taxi and other was a programme on TV showing India and perhaps operators to upgrade their vehicles. I have many taxi other parts of the world where air pollution was extreme drivers in my constituency who operate in the area. and people were having difficulty breathing, which made They will not be provided with the funding required to me not take for granted the fresh clean air that we have. upgrade their vehicles and they cannot afford to do so. That is part of the reason why I, along with my son, This is an important sector—probably the largest self- planted 3,500 trees on farmland about 10 years ago, and employed sector in my constituency—and we Conservatives I am caretaking areas of biodiversity on my farm. I do not wish business to be burdened, so I ask my hon. cannot save the world by myself, but I can make a small Friend the Minister to see whether there are ways to contribution, and I intend to do my best to keep our air provide moneys to support taxi drivers who need their clean and healthy. vehicles to be upgraded and are barely scraping a living Air quality has been very much in the news in the as it is. past few weeks, with the number of deaths in the UK due to air quality at its highest for some time. The Kate Green: I strongly endorse what the hon. Member figures are high even in Northern Ireland. UK industries is saying. Small businesses across Greater Manchester, account for 1% of air pollution, yet we can do more including the taxi firms in our constituencies, are keen than make the equivalent of a 1% improvement in the to play their part, but they of all businesspeople will world. It begins in our own homes and stretches out to struggle to meet costs without financial assistance. We the influence we have in this place to encourage people need information about the clean bus and clean freight to make good decisions and better choices. funds. Just this morning, the British Vehicle Rental and James Daly: I completely agree. A number of small Leasing Association had a drop-in event in room N in businesses in my constituency are coach companies, Portcullis House—Members who did not go are too which own older buses. Again, those businesses run at late now—where it referred to the need for hybrid and very small profit margins, and they need assistance to electric cars. The BVRLA also outlined five policy allow them to continue to provide a service. I hope we measures that it would like to see, which include, as I am can have more information on that. sure the Minister is well aware, tax benefits, new vehicles, Those are two important issues, and I know that charge points, which are critical, and user sentiment, colleagues in the Government will continue to look at because at the end of the day, the owners and users of how transport infrastructure and connectivity can be those cars need to be convinced that they are necessary. improved in the north and how bus services and all I caveat my remarks by saying that I firmly believe public transport can be supported to ensure that our that if we want to change people’s routines, we can do residents do not need to use their cars. A majority of so by encouragement and not enforcement. We can jail Bury North residents work outside the constituency, so someone and find they are still not rehabilitated after while cycling and walking is to be admired and supported, their incarceration, yet when we take the time to work they cannot do that to get to work. They want good with people and encourage them, lives are turned around. public transport links. I am sure that my hon. Friend Let us look at how we make that happen, because the the Minister and colleagues in the Government will do secret to our future security is educating the younger everything possible to invest in the north to ensure that generation and encouraging the older generations—I Bury North’s residents are connected to the other urban count myself in the latter category—to do what needs areas. to be done. As a Conservative, I hope we can find a way to The Minister will be aware that in Strangford and support those local businesses and small businesses that Portaferry we had a tidal project, which involved Queen’s are concerned about their futures and concerned that University, where we tried to harness the waves. The 15WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 16WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport [Jim Shannon] Last week, I spoke about the disparity in infrastructure spending across England. The hon. Member for West pilot and initial investigations provided some good ideas, Ham (Ms Brown) spoke of the disparity in London—the but we need investment for the project to go forward. east-west divide—which I was not aware of. Perhaps I There are things that we can do; we just need that wee will look into that more after the debate. bit of financial assistance to help to make it happen. A new Member, the hon. Member for North West We are the generation, as some here will acknowledge, Durham (Mr Holden), rather uniquely, in my experience, who had milk delivered in glass bottles, and we washed began by admitting that he was an adviser in the and put out the bottles for the milkman to reuse. We do Department for Transport, and potentially to blame for not mind recycling and we are doing our best, but it current policy. That was not how he put it, but it is how must be made clear what is expected of us to do our bit. I heard it. He made several good points, including his We are the generation who did not always have a car. last one, on vehicle excise duty on motorhomes, which I We used bikes—we probably do not use them as much think most of us would is agree is egregious. as we did in the past—took buses or went by Shanks’s The hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) spoke pony. Walking was probably easier for us in those days, of the Government arrangement to bring the ban on as some will understand. We do not mind doing so, but petrol and diesel cars forward, albeit without a proper it is important to explain and encourage. plan to build the infrastructure of charging points. I In Northern Ireland we have the Glider bus system think I will be able, later in my speech, to develop the from Dundonald right into Belfast. The idea is simple: point that the Scottish Government have not fallen into it is park and ride, whereby people park in Newtownards that trap. or the on the edge of Dundonald and get the Glider bus The hon. Member for Bury North (James Daly) straight into town. It is easier and less hassle, it gives essentially spoke about the disparity between bus services people a bit more time to do something while on the in the north and the south, and about the fact that the bus, and it produces less emissions. That shows there are bus service in his constituency is extremely poor—something good schemes that we can use. The key is not lectures that many in his constituency could agree with. The and browbeating, but information and encouragement. hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) speaks on Tax breaks and perks for businesses are useful, but we a vast number of issues for his constituents, and I need better infrastructure to encourage public transport agreed with him when he said that behaviours will be and ensure that our young people have their independence changed by encouragement, not enforcement. while still being safe when travelling. We must encourage I mentioned the urgency of dealing with the issue the use of car pools and shared resources. that we are debating, and that is reflected in the action To finish, there is much that can be done from this being taken in Scotland right now. The Scottish place, but my word of caution, from an old dog that is Government’s aim is a 75% reduction in emissions a learning new tricks, is this. Go easy and bring us with decade hence and, 15 years after that, a 100% drop, or you, and the generation who are used to hard work and net zero. Those are ambitious targets—the most ambitious innovation will not let you down. in these islands, no less—but they are achievable without disruption to our economy. Indeed, they have huge Caroline Nokes (in the Chair): The mover of the economic benefits and use existing technology. Given motion has indicated that he does not need time to wind that 31% of our total emissions come from transport, up the debate, so that leaves the Front-Bench spokesmen and more than four fifths of that figure is related to with just over 10 minutes each. road transport, it is clear that the hard action needed to curb emissions and move to net zero must come through investment and policy decisions aimed at how we move 10.27 am goods, services and ourselves. Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) Before I move on to the substantive points I wish to (SNP): Thank you, Ms Nokes. It is great to see you in make, I want to ask the Minister, on behalf of the large the Chair for the first time; I look forward to many number of hauliers in my constituency, whether he will more such occasions. I congratulate the right hon. give an undertaking to bring forward the conclusion of Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) on securing the longer semi-trailer trial, which has now been extended this debate on a vital topic. Clearly his sabbatical from to 10 years. We are eight years into the trial, and many the current regime has been time well spent in bringing companies, whether they are in the trial or not, need forward such topics. I am delighted that we are having information for the purpose of investing in their future this debate because it tackles the most pressing issue we fleets of trailers. They need to know whether the trailers face as a society. Few discussions in this place are as they buy will become obsolete just as they buy them. fundamental or urgent as climate change. Some information on that would be useful for hauliers In kicking off proceedings, the right hon. Member across the country. spoke of his Government’s excellent record. I have to The establishment of the UK’s first electric highway say I disagree with most of that, as I will explain in my along the A9, Scotland’s spine, is the type of bold speech. He spoke at length about electric vehicles, range action that is required if we are to make a successful anxiety and so on. He also spoke about changing transition to a net zero economy and the decarbonisation behaviours, and he is right, but there is a need for the of our transport network. By the end of the first Government to provide just as big—if not bigger—a tranche of funding, more than 2,500 charging points carrot as a stick, not just financially but in providing will be in place across Scotland. That first step is part of proper public transport alternatives outside London. the investment in infrastructure that is needed to phase That topic came up in the Chamber last week, and there out the need for new petrol and diesel cars by 2032— is definitely a need for substantial investment. investment covering not just public charging points but 17WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 18WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport also charging points at workplaces and in domestic country with a great many similarities to Scotland. Its settings. Members will note that I said 2032. That target electric car sales outstrip the UK’s, with an almost is still three years ahead of UK Government ambitions exponential growth rate. Last year alone, electric car despite this morning’s welcome announcement. sales increased by 31%, while the figure for petrol cars In recent years we have had a rail electrification dropped by the same rate and that for diesel cars programme that is the largest in our nation’s history. fell 13%. The car industry in Norway predicts an even Edinburgh to Glasgow, Paisley Canal, Stirling Dunblane greater demand for electric vehicles this year. By the end Alloa, and the Shotts and Whifflet lines—in fact all the of this year there is every chance that half of all new lines between our country’s two biggest cities—are now cars sold in Norway will be electric. In the UK, the all-electric. Virtually all the west of Scotland network figure stands at 2.1%, while fossil-fuel cars continue to has ditched diesel. increase in number. The difference is that Norway has a Government who Lilian Greenwood: Is not there something we should are taking concrete action to push electric vehicles, and learn in the rest of the UK, given what has happened who are investing in the infrastructure needed, with with rail in Scotland? Does the hon. Gentleman share nearly as many charging points as the entire UK. An my disappointment that the previous Government cut independent, northern European, energy-rich country back on electrification of our rail network? The learning with full access to the single market and the European from Scotland is to keep doing it, because it becomes economic area is leading the way on the sort of bold more cost-effective. There should be a rolling programme, transport policies that others can only follow, which are rather than the stop-start that we have seen in other possible only with the full powers of a sovereign, parts of the UK. independent Parliament and Government. Norway now, and Scotland in the future: one has only to look at the Gavin Newlands: I totally agree with the hon. Lady. I polls over the past week or so to see that the writing is was coming on to say that the amount of money that on the wall for Scotland’s continued membership of the has been wasted on cancelled electrification schemes is United Kingdom. However, I digress, and time is slightly shocking. The Government’s commitment must be called against me. into question. We have ambitious plans in Scotland, but if the Government here were to get a move on and Norway and Scotland show that leaving decarbonisation invest properly it would release more capital for the to the free market simply does not work. It needs strong Scottish Government to increase their ambitious plans policy and intervention from the Government, investment with regard to decarbonising transport. at a local and national level, and the commitment to match. I said before that the Scottish Government do Wera Hobhouse: Is it not true that we always count an outstanding job, despite operating with one hand the costs in the wrong way? Not doing the things we are tied behind their back. Indeed, Scotland has shown talking about will ultimately cost us a lot more. Cancelling global leadership by being the first country to include projects because they are getting more expensive does international aviation and shipping emissions in its not take into account the cost if we do not do those statutory climate targets. Given its nature, aviation is things. the toughest of transport modes to decarbonise, but I welcome today’s news that the UK aviation industry Gavin Newlands: The hon. Lady makes a good point. has vowed to decarbonise by 2050. The Scottish It is a very short-term approach to look at such things Government are working with Highlands and Islands in terms of their initial cost. They have to be considered Airports and the aviation industry to bring to Scotland in the medium and long term, particularly in the light of trials of cutting-edge zero-emission aircraft, using battery the climate emergency that the Government have and hydrogen fuel-cell technologies, starting in the Orkney announced. Cutting back on such schemes is disgraceful. archipelago, where no flight lasts longer than 20 minutes. Work continues in Scotland, in planning future works. Indeed, it boasts the world’s shortest scheduled flight, Those include the new metro running through my from Westray to Papa Westray, which is shorter in constituency, which will give Renfrew—currently the distance than most airport runways, and lasts a minute largest town in Scotland without a rail station—its first or so. The Scottish National party will decarbonise fixed rail link in more than 50 years; and the future flights within Scotland by 2040, and is aiming for the decarbonisation of the Barrhead and East Kilbride world’s first zero-emission aviation region, in partnership lines. Scotland aims to make sure that all rail journeys with HIAL. are carbon free by 2035. Perhaps that is the sort of Meanwhile, the UK Government’s track record is ambition that England and Wales need from their rail disappointing, to say the least—just ask the former policy makers, who have wasted tens of millions of president of COP26, Claire O’Neill, for her take. The pounds on cancelled rail electrification schemes. That is feed-in tariff has been scrapped, and Scotland’srenewables entirely the wrong signal to send at this time to the have been subjected not just to discriminatory but to public and the rest of the world. utterly shameful transmission charges. Both are key The Scottish Government are doing what they can inputs to a decarbonised transport system. The tax and under current financial and constitutional constraints, licencing regime delivers little benefit to those switching but hon. Members who have had the pleasure of hearing to electric vehicles, who play their part in driving the me speak on this topic will not be surprised if I bring up change that is needed. It is surely time for the Government Norway at this point. The right hon. Member for East to look to our European colleagues for inspiration and Hampshire has already alluded to results there in response ideas. Perhaps that approach is not in vogue down here to an intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for at the moment—it is certainly not within the present Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown). Norway’s Government—but it would assist massively in delivering population is less than one tenth of the UK’s, and it is a the transformational change needed across our network. 19WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 20WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport [Gavin Newlands] Government for new road building in their constituencies. That is not the way forward; we need to move away If the Government are not prepared to do that, they from car dependency. should make sure that Scotland’s Parliament and I urge the Minister to listen carefully to my following Government have the powers and the finance needed to points about the importance of other modes of transport, do the job properly. which were also ably made by other colleagues.

10.39 am Lilian Greenwood: I very much welcome my hon. Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab): It is a pleasure to Friend’sapproach of looking across the whole of transport, serve under your chairship, Ms Nokes, and to respond rather than focusing only on cleaner vehicles, because to the debate. I thank Members who have contributed, that will help us to tackle wider policy issues, including and a number of excellent points have clearly been health and social justice. Does he agree that, when made. I particularly thank the right hon. Member for making difficult choices—there are difficult choices East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) for securing the debate. ahead—the Government should look with interest at I will make three key points. First of all, on the scale the outcome of Climate Assembly UK, which was of this problem. Secondly, on the need for an urgent brought forward by six Select Committees, to see what response, as discussed by a number of hon. Members. the members of the public taking part have to say and Thirdly, on the series of policy choices facing the what recommendations they make? Government now that they have a significant working majority. Before I do that, I will comment, without Matt Rodda: My hon. Friend makes an excellent intruding into private grief too deeply, on the tussle that point. I urge the Minister to familiarise himself with her is quite clearly going on in Government at the moment. work as the Chair of the Select Committee on Transport. It is deeply unfortunate that a former climate Minister The public are further ahead on this matter than we has quite clearly had a difference of opinion with her parliamentarians, so it is important that we address colleagues, which reflects rather badly on the Government’s these issues. Let me make one further point about the ability to focus on this vital issue. I urge the Minister—a strategic nature of our dependence on road and the thoughtful and gentle chap who is very interested in key policy mistakes so far. There is a stark contrast between policies relating to climate change—to please have a the effective subsidy for road use and the use of carbon- word and see if he can sort things out. powered transport—through the effective cut to petrol We have focused on the technical points, but it is duty—and the lack of subsidy for rail travel and other quite simply no exaggeration to point out that the forms of public transport. climate crisis is the most urgent and serious problem To turn to rail, the Scottish National party spokesman, facing the British Government and, indeed, the wider the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North world. There is quite clearly a need for every Government, (Gavin Newlands), made an excellent point about the private individual, business and charity to take urgent need for rail electrification. In my own region of south and determined action. However, it is also clear from and south-west England, there is a clear contrast with the debate that this is simply not happening, and that other parts of the UK. On the railway line just beyond the Government, I am afraid, are failing in this vital Reading, the electrification abruptly stops at Newbury, area of policy. which is a long way from the end of the line, which goes I will address the series of policy choices facing all the way to St Ives. I urge the Minister to look again Ministers now that they have been returned with a at rail electrification, and to ask his colleagues, particularly significant majority. My question to the Minister, whom the Rail Minister, to look with urgency at this matter. In I am sure is listening attentively, is: will the Government the Great Western region, there has been a complete now step up to meet these challenges? Will they look at failure in the Government’scommitment to electrification. the difficult choices in front of them, or will they yet On lines into Wales, the electrification stops at Cardiff, again fail the public and, more importantly, future and the whole of south Wales continues to be served by generations? So far, I am afraid that the evidence points dirty diesel vehicles. to continued failure. I urge the Minister to once again However, similarly to road issues, rail issues go way refer the matter to his colleagues and urge them to take beyond the technical nature of the vehicles involved. serious action and to look once again at the fundamentals There are also wider questions about the priority given of these problems. to rail travel over road travel and the strategic choices First and foremost, as the right hon. Member for made by the Government. I urge the Government to East Hampshire rightly pointed out, the issue before us look at the work of the German Government, which is one of road transport. The UK has a car-dependent was mentioned by a colleague earlier. The German economy, and we need to address that. This not only is a Government recently instituted a 10% cut in rail fares matter of technical detail but is fundamental, affecting across Germany which, as mentioned, is in many ways a planning and everyday life. I call on the Government to comparable northern European country.Labour proposed look not only at the subsidies and time limit for selling a 30% cut in rail fares. Cutting fares is likely to have a vehicles but at the whole planning system and the significant impact on rail use and in taking people out priority it gives to new road building. As I mentioned, of polluting road vehicles and on to rail, which even the Government have so far taken the wrong choices on with diesel locomotives will reduce carbon emissions this matter. They are putting £30 billion from vehicle significantly.With electrification, it has enormous potential excise duty into a hypothecated fund, which is being benefits. allocated to new roads. Colleagues who attend Transport However, there is also an issue about ownership. I Question Time, as many in the Chamber today do, will welcome the Government’s recent renationalisation note a series of Back-Bench Members pitching to the —as my colleague said, we wish them a happy rail 21WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 22WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport renationalisation day—but would like to see them go as a whole, it is clear that the franchising system has further and look at the whole network, and to introduce worked extremely well in London where it was retained. a clear strategy for managing and developing that network There is a widespread desire among Mayors and other and avoiding the current poor performance of the franchise leading figures in local government to expand franchising. system and the failure of the complicated ticketing I ask the Minister to allow all local authorities to system. consider both franchising and remunicipalising bus It is a little-known fact that buses are actually the companies to improve services in areas such as the hon. major form of public transport in the UK. I urge the Gentleman’s constituency and many others around the Minister to completely rethink the Government’s failed country, including rural constituencies. policy on buses, which is in many ways one of their I appreciate the pressure of time, Ms Nokes, and will worst areas of transport performance. Funding for be brief on my final point. As the hon. Member for buses has been cut by 45%. The hon. Member for Bury Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) pointed out, it is crucial that North (James Daly) talked about his own issues on the we do not address transport just through vehicles, but outskirts of Greater Manchester, which I will come to look at active travel. There is huge scope in this country shortly, but for many colleagues in rural areas, there has to encourage walking and cycling. Points were made been a notable impact on services. Near to my own seat about the topography of some British cities, but they do in Reading, Oxfordshire County Council rather foolishly not apply in many parts of the country. Many urban cut all bus subsidies, affecting the population of more and many semi-rural areas are relatively flat, but we than half a million people. There is clearly a need for a perform very badly compared with other northern complete rethink. Hundreds of routes have been lost. European countries. We are way below the levels that However,as with rail, there is also a need to strategically we should be achieving. At the moment, the projected rethink the strategy for the whole system. Since the increases in walking and cycling are not taking place—we Transport Act 1985, bus patronage has declined and are clearly flatlining. When we look at the wider context there has been an over-emphasis on a small number of of the lack of investment in this area compared with highly profitable routes, because of the nature of the road transport, it is clear that greater capital investment system. We need to look again at the possibility of is needed. That is whywe would have committed substantial greater franchising. The hon. Member for Bury North moneys to that, and I urge the Minister to do that. makes a good point about the issue of communities on In my own town of Reading, the simple measure of a the edge of networks. However, franchising was retained bridge across the Thames specifically for walking and in London and has been shown to lead to much higher cycling has led to a transformation in the journeys bus patronage. made by commuters to Reading station. That is a We also, as a country, need to address the success of simple example of the many benefits of capital investment municipal bus companies. In Reading, the bus company in this sphere. That issue has been noted as regards is outstanding and has growing patronage, and the London and Manchester, and I am sure that the Minister same is true of Nottingham, where my hon. Friend the will address it in his closing remarks. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) I am aware of the time, Ms Nokes, but I also ask the represents a seat. Municipal firms have a great deal to Minister, as he considers this, to please talk to his offer.Municipal transport is widely known on the continent colleagues in other Departments and integrate policy and is associated with many centre-right Governments, with wider measures to tackle climate change. so I urge Ministers to reconsider the previous—somewhat ideological—opposition to this common-sense, practical 10.51 am and effective form of local accountability. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (George In summary on buses, I call on the Minister to look at Freeman): May I say what a pleasure it is to serve under the overall level of subsidy and to address capital investment your chairmanship, Ms Nokes? In the time available, I in the sector, with a view to encouraging more electric shall do my best to set out the Government’s strategy buses, and also to look at the management of bus and to deal with the many points that were raised. services, to make them more effective and more responsive First, I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for to local needs. This was so wisely pointed out in the case East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) for calling this debate of Greater Manchester, where I believe that the Mayor on the importance of decarbonising the transport sector. is looking at franchising with a view to improving As the first Minister for the decarbonisation of transport, services in the very outer boroughs, which the hon. I welcome this opportunity and the many contributions Member for Bury North mentioned. from Members from, I think, all parties in the House. James Daly: I agree with a lot of what the hon. We have seen quite a lot of expertise, including from the Gentleman says. As a new Member of Parliament who former Chair of the Transport Committee, the hon. has spoken to those who are in charge of the consultation Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), and putting forward the policy,my concern with franchising and I have heard an awful lot with which we agree, is that I have not been told that the services are going to including on the scale of the challenge of global climate be expanded, or that services in my area that are completely change and the imperative of gripping transport reliant on some form of subsidy will receive that subsidy. decarbonisation now. There was an important point I support the idea in principle, but I fear that it will not about avoiding climate anxiety while stressing the urgency lead to the expansion of the service, a better service or a of the situation. We do not want to depress people, more regular service. Does he have any views on that? particularly the young, by making out that this task is impossible. Matt Rodda: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his We also heard about the real strides that we have point. I think that the issue is local accountability. made as a country and the need for the transport sector Certainly, when we look at franchising in the country now to lean in and show the leadership that the energy 23WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Net Zero Targets and 24WH Decarbonising Transport Decarbonising Transport [George Freeman] G20 country. Last year, with support from this House, we became the first major economy to set a legally sector has shown. I was particularly interested in the binding target to achieve net zero emissions from across points that my right hon. Friend the Member for East the UK economy by 2050. That will end our contribution Hampshire made about behavioural insights and to global climate change, but it does not mean the end understanding the real barriers to EV uptake and modal of prosperity. I am equally proud that we have created shift—indeed, we are putting a lot of emphasis on that more than 400,000 jobs in this sector. We need to be in the strategy—and about the need for a smooth evolution clear that green growth is more sustainable, resilient and of the support framework. globally exportable, and creates more opportunities for As the first Minister for the future of transport, the next generation of people in this country. focusing on decarbonisation, digitalisation and Between 1990 and 2017, we reduced emissions by disconnection, I, with my right hon. Friend the Prime more than 40% while growing our economy by more Minister, am absolutely determined that we will take an than two thirds. Green growth works. However, we are integrated approach. That means putting people and not complacent— places—neighbourhoods—at the heart of the vision for transport, looking at what the transport sector needs to Alan Brown: Will the Minister give way? do to put people and places first and looking at our research and development programme across Government to ensure that we are backing the right innovations in George Freeman: I will not, just because I am very technologies to support future green transport. To that short of time to respond to the debate. end, we have established in the DFT a new directorate Delivering net zero will require genuine transformation for the future of transport, which has seven workstreams of our economy and society, including our homes, and seven directors, dealing with R&D, finance, place, transport systems and businesses. Although challenging, data, regulation, decarbonisation and the importance it offers tremendous social and economic opportunity, of behavioural insights as well of ensuring that we go but we will have to go further and faster to build on our with the grain of people’s aspirations for their families track record, with transport front and centre. and their constituencies. I shall list briefly the things that we have done. This is I do not want to take up too much time agreeing with a very significant demonstration of leadership. Our everyone on the scale of the crisis. We have only to look £1.5 billion ultra low emission vehicle programme is the to what has been happening in the past few months envy of the world. Wehave just announced the £400 million around the world—to Australia, to our own floods and charging infrastructure fund, which will see thousands to the rate of polar ice melt and the rising sea levels—to more electric vehicle charge points installed across the know that this is the defining global challenge of our UK, both superfast chargers at motorway service stations generation. I can feel in this Chamber the appetite and domestic chargers. The first £70 million of that across the parties to show the electorate in this country, will create another 3,000 rapid charge points. With the after the divisions of the past few years, that we are private sector, we are on track to deliver £1 billion for united in ensuring that we tackle it. charging infrastructure. I am genuinely delighted that Let there be no doubt that this Government are the Prime Minister has this morning announced the 100% committed to leading—not just delivering but leading Government’s intention to bring forward the ban on —and therefore we must accelerate our action to reduce petrol, diesel and hybrid cars and vans to 2035, in line greenhouse gas emissions to avoid longer-lasting with the Committee on Climate Change’s advice. consequences. That will mean reducing car dependency On shipping, we have the clean maritime plan. On and building lower car dependency into the new houses rail, we have set the ambition to remove all diesel-only that we are building, and that is why I was delighted last trains from the network. On aviation, we have helped to week to announce on the east-west arc, for example, lead the world in setting up that first and seminal that we are focusing on rail links to the new housing. international agreement for emissions reduction, and The decisions that we make will affect the future of here in the UK we are investing £1.5 billion in future the planet for generations to come. This is urgent. I am aviation technology. Yesterday, I visited the E-Fan X, a delighted that, as I am speaking, the Prime Minister is partnership between Rolls-Royce and Airbus at Cranfield sitting down having just given his keynote speech defining pioneering the first electric plane. how important this is for the Government. We will have We will have to invest in science and technology to show new models of leadership globally, and that is longer term, as well as modal shift for healthier and why hosting COP this November is vital. happier places short term, and to that end I will shortly I will just take this opportunity to say that since be announcing with my right hon. Friend the Secretary Mrs Thatcher was, famously, the first western leader to of State our first ever transport decarbonisation plan. warn of the pace of this back in the 1980s, we saw a few That will set out for the first time an approach for each decades of quite slow progress until the last decade. I mode—road, rail, shipping and aviation—and an approach pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Doncaster by place. We want to look at the worst motorway North (Edward Miliband), David Cameron and Nick junctions and railway stations, and we want to use Clegg for putting together a consensus that we needed digital tools to help to track standard emissions per to act 10 years ago. passenger kilometre. And there will be a plan for science The Climate Change Act 2008 was the first of its and R&D investment longer term, including for important kind in the world and made the UK the first country technologies in areas such as hydrogen and carbon to have legally binding long-term emissions reduction capture and storage—there is a whole range of technologies targets, and we should be proud of that. Since 2000, we that can help us to drive both the modal shift and the have decarbonised our economy faster than any other emissions reduction. 25WH Net Zero Targets and 4 FEBRUARY 2020 26WH Decarbonising Transport This is about harnessing the power of our science and Innovation in Hospital Design innovation and our digital economy to help lead the world in how to empower today’s travellers, passengers, 11 am drivers and households to make green choices. Imagine the power of a green Citymapper that will allow people Mrs Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I beg to move, to choose low-emission journeys and then reward them. That this House has considered innovation in hospital design. That is very powerful and something that we need to It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, look at. Ms Nokes, and to hold this important debate. Last September, the Government gave the green light to Crucially, this will not all be done by top-down diktat 40 new hospitals, as part of the health infrastructure from central Government; it will require—this is one plan. For my Basingstoke community this means support reason why I welcome it—a bold new deal of devolution for a hospital replacing a much-loved building, built with towns and cities, and so I am in the process of over 40 years ago. working round all the Mayors of combined authorities. We wanted a new hospital six years ago. While it is We are short of time. Let me close by saying that if important to refresh those plans, because we are now we are to achieve this objective, which we are determined talking about a district hospital, not just a critical to do, it will require not just science and not just treatment hospital, we already have a great deal of work devolution for modal shift; it will require, I suggest, a in place. The initial community consultation has identified pan-Government approach on a par with that which we widespread support. The ambulance service has identified took in the build-up to the Olympics—a genuine the location that would save more lives. The local council decarbonisation olympiad, which will need to happen has given planning consent for a hospital to be built. on a cross-party basis and inspire the next generation What about the building itself? If we are to realise the with the belief that we can do it. full benefits of this once-in-a-generation opportunity Perhaps, with their permission, I can write to the for our healthcare infrastructure, we need not the fad of hon. Members who raised specific questions with the the moment, but the best design for our hospitals based detailed answers that I have written out but have no on evidence and the needs of clinicians, patients, staff time to read out now. and the community, as well as research at home and Question put and agreed to. abroad, to create the best blueprint for local trusts to Resolved, use for the next generation of NHS hospitals. That this House has considered net zero targets and decarbonising Guidance on how to design a new hospital, provided transport. by the NHS to hospital trusts, has been called “out of date”by Architects for Health, an organisation dedicated to improving healthcare design. That should concern us. I hope that the Minister will reassure me that any new hospital will benefit from the best design thinking based on the best evidence around the world. Many of the crucial design factors identified through research by design experts are completely absent in many hospitals within the NHS estate. Many of our hospitals, including our hospital in Basingstoke, were built for a different era of medicine. The buildings have been modified, added to, partially knocked down and rebuilt, and prefabricated units have been built in front of old units. Any sense of coherence in the design of our hospitals has long been lost. Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab): I hope the right hon. Lady agrees that, historically, hospitals have been built away from where those services were most needed, causing issues with the recruitment of consultants and doctors, who then have to work with a demographically and geographically diverse population. I hope that location is given full consideration when new hospitals are designed. Mrs Miller: The hon. Lady is absolutely right. That is why I was pleased that the NHS trust in Hampshire went to the emergency services and asked where the best location for a hospital would be. They identified junction 7 on the M3—an area not unknown to you, Ms Nokes—as a fantastic location. It would be convenient not only for staff, but for the ambulance service, so that it could can save more lives. All these issues must be taken into account. We have experience of building hospitals since Basingstoke and North Hampshire Hospital was built in the 1970s. Newer private finance initiative hospitals have often been debated in this place. Interesting research has been done on their design, showing that the innovative 27WH Innovation in Hospital Design4 FEBRUARY 2020 Innovation in Hospital Design 28WH

[Mrs Miller] but we need to take account of the actual design of the hospital, to ensure that it is a design that the surrounding use design was inhibited because private finance saw community can be proud of, and so the hospital does those hospitals foremost as an investment vehicle, and not look as if it has landed from outer space and tried to reduce risk by using conventional design and instead fits with the natural setting; a hospital should be construction methods—looking to the past rather than a building that will add to that natural setting and not the future. We cannot make the same mistakes again. detract from it. What makes a good hospital for now, or, better still, For this new generation of hospitals to be truly for 2060, when these hospitals will still be operating? sustainable, there needs to be a move away from the Based on the past 40 years of experience, we know the disposable hospital design of the 1970s, which was next generation of hospitals must be flexible in their perhaps used when the hospital in Basingstoke was design, not only to accommodate change, but to be built back in 1972. A building that is flexible and that built with change in mind and not as an afterthought. I can be repurposed is a building that is sustainable, am sure that some elements can be standardised, but which is the approach that we must take. the overall design must be flexible. Some new hospitals Each and every one of the 40 new hospitals will be a are built with the intention that they may have an huge investment for taxpayers, and it is right that approval entirely different use in the future. In our communities procedures are rigorous. However, I hope that my hon. there are successful examples of buildings that began Friend the Minister can assure us that, despite that with one intended use and have moved to another, but rigour, the long-term benefits of the best working they are few and far between. We need to ensure these environment for staff are not traded for a short-term hospitals have that flexibility, to scale up, change, scale reduction in cost. back and even change use entirely. Hospitals are absolutely extraordinary places that do Patient treatment is the prime function of a hospital, extraordinary things on a routine basis. They are places but so is patient recovery.The prevalence of multimorbidity where we experience the most emotional experiences in requires a different way of thinking. Perhaps people our lives; they are the places where new life is brought with mental and physical illness—indeed, those with into the world and where we face our darkest moments. both simultaneously—should be treated side by side. I will always remember the birth of my three children in Rightly, our focus is on early detection and prevention, Queen Charlotte’s Hospital in London, even though so part of any new hospital must be mobile, to take there was a decision to move the hospital after the birth prevention of disease into the heart of our community, of my second child and I had to go to a new location for with the permanent migration of some services from my third child. Nevertheless, to be surrounded by experts hospitals to the community, including simple diagnostics in maternity and midwifery was an extraordinary experience, and therapies. and we always have a debt of gratitude to hospitals that Research from the US demonstrates the importance have served us in that way. Now Basingstoke hospital is of the right environment for patient recovery, including looking after my mother and my father in an extraordinary noise reduction, air quality, green space, daylight and way, and we should always recognise the incredible seeing nature. Unsurprisingly, all those elements promote lengths that the NHS goes to, in order to ensure that we good health in well people, too. In 1984, a study by have the right support in place at the right time. Roger Ulrich proved that a view through a window of a That is why communities have such a profoundly natural setting—perhaps the Hampshire countryside— emotional attachment to their hospitals. That is a challenge would aid recovery. Those who had a view of a natural that the Government face as they introduce their plans scene had a shorter stay and fewer complications and for 40 new hospitals, because they must recognise the required less pain relief than those with a window impact of any change to a building with which people facing a brick wall. Those are not new ideas. Florence have an emotional bond and attachment, whether they Nightingale insisted on every ward being flooded with have had a baby or visited a dying relative there. We sunlight, with windows that opened to bring in light need to understand that and take the community with and ventilation lifting the spirits, but that is not the case us. for every ward in my hospital and hospitals around the I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister can outline country. today how the Government will ensure that this once-in- Staff retention is one of the most acute issues for the a-generation opportunity—these 40 new hospitals for NHS. NHS staff are hugely loyal and dedicated. The communities right across the nation—involves good hundreds of people in Basingstoke who work in my design. That means design that helps to provide the best local hospital go above and beyond every day in bringing treatment, the best recovery, the best staff retention and the best care to my constituents. However, where we the best for our environment, and such design should be work matters, and we should not rely on that loyalty at the heart of each and every new hospital, because we and dedication but reciprocate it. We need to think must build hospitals for the future and not simply about how design can improve everyday working lives. replicate the past. Wealso need to recognise the emotional Office design has evolved over the past 40 years, role that hospitals play in the lives of our families and creating spaces that encourage creative collaboration. our communities. We must work with the people the However, in hospitals things have not changed much at NHS serves to ensure that this groundbreaking development all, yet collaboration and creativity are just as relevant of the NHS estate is understood, embraced and welcomed. in medicine as in commerce, as are training and upskilling, which should be designed into these new buildings. 11.13 am Of course, a hospital’s environmental impact also The Minister for Care (Caroline Dinenage): It is a needs to be minimised. The importance of renewable huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the energy and public transport links goes without saying, first time, Ms Nokes. 29WH Innovation in Hospital Design4 FEBRUARY 2020 Innovation in Hospital Design 30WH

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for There is also growing evidence that access to and Basingstoke (Mrs Miller) on securing this incredibly visibility of green space is vital to promoting therapeutic important debate about innovation in hospital design, environments that aid recovery, with positive health which I know is an important subject for her. She has outcomes including reductions in stress and anxiety, worked tirelessly to secure a new and better hospital to increased social interaction and, of course, an improved serve her constituents in Basingstoke, who I know are healthcare experience. grateful for the enormous amount of work that she There has been some really interesting recent work in done. I also know that she will continue to hold our feet this space, which the Department welcomes. For instance, to the fire in the Department of Health and Social Care, the Royal Horticultural Society donated its feel-good to ensure that the new hospital is the very best that it garden from the 2018 RHS Chelsea Flower Show to can be. Camden and Islington NHS Foundation Trust. Its As my right hon. Friend said, the Department has permanent home is now at Highgate mental health invested heavily in the NHS, providing large amounts of centre, one of the trust’s two in-patient psychiatric sites, capital investment to hospitals, as announced last year and it is dedicated to improving the care of older adults by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for with acute mental illness. Health and Social Care. Ensuring that this investment As my right hon. Friend said, there is nothing new delivers innovation in health infrastructure is absolutely about that approach. Florence Nightingale—who I know vital, as we move forward towards a health estate that is is deeply ingrained in your constituency, Ms Nokes—had fit and able to face the challenges of the future. it right from the beginning. My constituency of Gosport We announced a new health infrastructure plan, or houses Haslar, a military hospital built in 1756 that has HIP, to deliver a long-term programme of investment in long, well-lit buildings, beautifully landscaped gardens our NHS estate, buildings and equipment. This will be overlooking the Solent and, critically, many out- the biggest and boldest hospital-building programme in buildings—smaller structures where the war-wounded a generation, supporting our health service so that would be wheeled out to take the air and look at the dedicated NHS staff, who are quite marvellous, can give beautiful views of the Solent that we still enjoy today. patients world-class care in world-class facilities. Buildings designed to maximise natural light and views Under the new HIP, we have made a long-term of green space, with increased natural ventilation and commitment to build 40 new hospitals over the next reduced noise levels, make for a much more pleasant decade, including to the Hampshire Hospitals NHS environment, not only for the patients, to aid recovery, Foundation Trust in my right hon. Friend’s constituency. but for the staff going about their work. As she knows, the trust will receive £5 million in seed As my right hon. Friend said, there is mounting funding to develop plans to renew the ageing estate and evidence that there are strong links between the design better align services at the hospitals in Basingstoke and or layout of buildings and the job satisfaction of staff, Winchester. thereby improving staff retention. Buildings should be The 20 hospital upgrades that we previously announced designed in a way that makes it easier for staff to do are already under way. That is on top of a capital their job. For instance, designing the layout of a health commitment, amounting to around £3.3 billion, building in a way that aligns with patient flow and provisionally awarded to over 170 sustainability and clinical pathways also contributes to increased staff transformation plans since July 2017. That capital satisfaction, which makes sense. Staff can dedicate more investment is going into a wide variety of programmes time to patients because the time spent walking between right across the country, including new urgent care linked wards and clinical services is reduced. centres and integrated care hubs—which bring together Naturally, we want to ensure that the modern clinical primary and community services—and, of course, new design of buildings is also cutting-edge in the way it mental health facilities. supports environmental sustainability.The large hospital This investment programme will totally transform projects selected for phases 1 and 2 of the Department’s the health infrastructure in this country. It presents a health infrastructure programme have been instructed unique and exciting opportunity to implement the latest to ensure that they combine and contribute to the innovation in healthcare design, with all the benefits reduction in the NHS carbon footprint by following the and advances of modern methods of construction. framework developed by the UK Green Building Council Getting this right will ensure that patients receive the on net zero carbon buildings. right treatment—treatment that speeds up their recovery As well as seeing innovation in hospital buildings, we and makes the most of the working environment, ensuring want to see environmentally conscious design. The NHS that our wonderful NHS staff can work in facilities that has led a new-for-old programme, which improves delivery support them to deliver the very best in patient care. of local community-based infrastructure as well, so The impact of the built environment on patient outcomes these things are not only for the big new acute hospitals. and staff satisfaction is increasingly clear. My right The new-for-old programme is adopting a variety of hon. Friend has already referred to it, but academic sustainability measures, including something called research conducted by the University of Sheffield shows BREEAM, which stands for the Building Research that patients make significantly better progress in new, Establishment environmental assessment method—that purpose-built and designed buildings than in old ones. slips off the tongue. It will be incorporated as standard, There are a range of impacts, including reductions in as independent third-party verification of sustainability pain medication needs and shortening hospital stays. In performance in infrastructure. the mental health sector, treatment times were reduced The design of estate has a massive part to play in by 14%, and in the general medical sector, non-operative achieving net zero carbon targets, and carbon efficiency patient treatment times were reduced by a staggering 21%. measures can have a positive effect on both patients and That is the prize here. staff. For example, installing energy-efficient LED lighting 31WH Innovation in Hospital Design4 FEBRUARY 2020 Innovation in Hospital Design 32WH

[Caroline Dinenage] Friend talked about. That means that the NHS can adapt to future advances in delivering modern patient in every hospital will produce average energy cost savings care, and it delivers time, cost and efficiency benefits. of up to £33 million and, importantly, improve the For example, the Wrightington Hospital orthopaedic clinical environment for patients and staff. Adopting centre uses repeatable rooms, and that is already delivering renewable energy solutions in the design of clinical benefits to patients and staff, but it also means that the facilities also contributes to cleaner air for our communities rooms can be changed in future as modern innovation and better health outcomes. delivers changes. It is also critical that innovative building Our building programme will take advantage of design integrates the benefits of technology and innovative design and innovative construction methods, infrastructure to make full use of its transformative and we are encouraging the NHS to take advantage of a potential for service delivery and patient care. range of modern construction approaches, including As my right hon. Friend says, it is important to off-site manufacturing and standardisation, such as ensure that the designs are delivered fast. The schemes repeatable room design. Such methods can enable new must be built in a way that works with the local community. and better buildings to be built quicker than otherwise The buildings must be easily accessible, sustainable and would be possible. They can open their doors to patients integrated with the local planning infrastructure, and sooner. scheme proposals and business cases developed in partnership and in alignment with sustainability and Mrs Miller: The Minister rightly talks about new and transformation plans, integrated care systems and clinical innovative methods to build buildings quicker, and that and estate strategies. They need written commissioner is very important, but my concern about getting these support, alongside evidence of engagement with local things finished is not about the building; it is about the stakeholders and their support for the plans. We hope approvals processes. Given the benefits that she so that will speed up delivery of the buildings. eloquently outlines in having the additional 40 new I hope that goes some way towards reassuring my hospitals—benefits to patients, but also to the taxpayer— right hon. Friend that the Government are absolutely what space is there for the NHS to speed up the programme? committed to maximising innovation in the high-quality It is clearly long overdue and to the benefit of all our hospitals that we are delivering. We are going to seize constituents. this once-in-a-generation opportunity, and we will work tirelessly to ensure that the people of this country are Caroline Dinenage: My right hon. Friend is absolutely receiving the care they deserve in buildings that are right to raise that point, and I will come to it later in my modern, functional and beautiful. I thank her for securing speech. The key thing is to ensure that all the relevant this debate, because it has given me an opportunity to stakeholders and partners are brought to the table very outline how we intend to do that, but I am sure she will early so that everybody understands exactly what the continue to hold us to account when it comes to delivering plan is and has a feeling that they have bought into and on that commitment. invested in how that plan unfolds. Question put and agreed to. Earlier, I mentioned the importance of innovation, repeatable room design and standardised components, 11.24 am which very much lead to the flexibility that my right hon. Sitting suspended. 33WH 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 34WH

Climate Justice Nadia Whittome: I agree with my hon. Friend. There will be no future generations on a dead planet. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has stated, climate justice is not just about us here and now; it is about future [SIR CHARLES WALKER in the Chair.] generations too. I thank her for raising that point. Continuing to burn fossil fuels or expand aviation, 2.30 pm and compensating by paying poorer countries to offset Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab): I beg to those emissions, risks only worsening and entrenching move, current inequalities. Will the Minister categorically rule out the UK dumping our carbon reduction obligations That this House has considered climate justice. on to developing countries? Failure to reduce emissions It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, and adapt to the impacts of drastic climate and ecological Sir Charles. I thank Mr Speaker for granting the debate, breakdown threatens to reverse hard-won development and I welcome the Minister to his place. I also thank gains and to increase poverty, inequality, hunger and colleagues for being present, including those who have humanitarian disasters. long spoken out in this place on climate change, climate justice and ecology. Tulip Siddiq (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab): I thank Climate justice is a term often brandished around, my hon. Friend for introducing this important debate, but personally, and for the purposes of the debate, I especially in the light of the fact that the UK will host take it to mean addressing the climate crisis in a way the COP26 vital meeting later this year, which is really that is fair and equitable. Climate justice links human our last chance to come up with a meaningful plan to rights and development to achieve a people-centred tackle carbon emissions. The Government have used approach, safeguarding the rights of the most marginalised very warm words on tackling the climate emergency, people and sharing the impact of climate change equitably but does she agree that those words ring hollow when a and fairly, because we know that those least responsible UK Government agency, UK Export Finance, continues for climate change suffer its gravest consequences. to fund new oil and gas projects across the world that, Disadvantaged groups will continue to be disproportion- when complete, could amount to as much as a sixth of ately affected as climate change persists. Those groups the UK’s total annual carbon emissions? will be affected due to inequalities that are based on differences in gender, race, ethnicity, age and income. Nadia Whittome: My hon. Friend makes a pertinent The fourth national climate assessment report of the point. Indeed, current emission reduction pledges from Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change found that the international community are insufficient to meet the low-income individuals and communities are more exposed Paris agreement goals and instead put us on track for a to environmental hazards and pollution. terrifying 3° of warming. Climate change is already forcing people from their Despite the UK hosting COP26 later this year, more land and homes.Oxfam found that climate-fuelled disasters than 90% of the £2 billion in energy deals struck at last were the No. 1 driver of internal displacements over the month’s UK-Africa investment summit were for fossil past decade, forcing an estimated 20 million people a fuels. Will the Minister clarify how the deal struck by year from their homes. the Prime Minister last month is consistent with the Government’s stated aim of tackling climate change John Howell (Henley) (Con): Is the hon. Lady aware and setting an example for other nations? that the New Zealand Government have awarded visas Even with all the evidence before us, and in spite of for climate refugees so that they can live in New Zealand, the rhetoric, the UK Government are pressing ahead and does she think that that will develop further over with Heathrow expansion. They have effectively banned the coming years? the cheapest form of renewables, new onshore wind, through restrictive planning measures and removal of Nadia Whittome: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his subsidies. They have cut frontline environmental agencies, intervention; that is a very good point. I certainly think such as Natural England, to the extent that they cannot that in the wake of the climate crisis we have to reassess even meet their basic statutory duties. Meanwhile, the our definition of economic migrants. UK is missing nearly all our international biodiversity The World Bank warns that, without urgent action, targets, and species decline and habitat neglect and 143 million people will be displaced in sub-Saharan destruction are taking place at an alarming rate. Africa, south Asia and Latin America by 2050. As the Joseph Rowntree Foundation has rightly stated, climate Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): The hon. justice is about not only ensuring that nobody is unfairly Member is making a compelling speech. Does she agree affected by climate change today, but recognising that that we should add to that litany of charges against the future generations have rights too. Government the fact that they continue to measure their emissions in terms of our production emission Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op): reductions rather than our consumption emission I congratulate my hon. Friend on the debate. She is reductions? If we started to take account of what we making an excellent speech. Does she agree that, based consumed in imported emissions, the very bad progress on some of the analysis that she has already referred to, that we have already made would look even worse. the costs of not dealing with climate justice will far outweigh those of doing so, given the legacy that we Nadia Whittome: My hon. Friend makes an important will leave for future generations and what they will have point. I thank her for that, and for her many years of to clear up? work in Westminster on climate justice. 35WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 36WH

[Nadia Whittome] COP26 to develop new sources of climate finance, such as a polluters’ tax, so as to not rely on the overseas aid In the light of all this, it comes as little surprise that budget alone? on BBC Radio 4 this morning, Claire O’Neill, the With the addition of paragraph 51 to the COP21 former president of the UN climate summit in Glasgow, decision accompanying the Paris agreement, developing said that the Prime Minister has admitted to her that he nations reluctantly agreed that loss and damage could does not even understand climate change. Will the not be used to claim compensation from richer nations. Minister lay out what major changes—not promises, Will the Minister outline the Government’s position on consultations or strategies, but tangible changes—have paragraph 51 and say whether he supports calls by the taken place or been set in motion since the House US to further exclude countries not signed up to the passed Labour’s climate and environment emergency Paris agreement from any liability for the impacts of last May? climate change? Does the Minister agree that it is imperative that the Action to tackle climate change is increasingly being UK gets our own house in order, and is seen to be viewed through the lens of human rights, internationally making substantial progress on decarbonisation, climate and legally. As has been seen in some key strategic cases, change, adaption and habitat restoration, ahead of hosting the human rights basis for litigation on climate change COP26? Will he outline investments and actions in the has increasingly resonated with judges. New lawsuits pipeline between now and November—specifically, have been able to draw on advancements in attribution investments in infrastructure to create the green, clean science to establish a critical causal link between a jobs of the future? Will he clarify whether the Prime particular source of emissions and climate-related damage, Minister is indeed entirely ignorant about climate change, so the message to the world’s biggest polluters is clear: as claimed by his former colleague? Lastly, is there a “Your time is up.” The communities most impacted by reason why the climate sub-committee has not met since the reckless and short-termist actions of Governments it was first announced, and on what dates is it scheduled and major polluters are, with increasing frequency, to meet? having their day in court. Will the Government take a There is a huge opportunity in Glasgow later this human rights-based approach to climate change ahead year, but decisions must be made and acted upon that of COP26, supporting those most impacted by, and keep fossil fuels in the ground, transform our food most vulnerable to, the impacts of climate breakdown? systems, decarbonise our production and consumption, People of my generation are here to claim our right restore ecosystems, and completely change our economies to a stable planet. We are here to shake decision makers at a scale that matches the enormity of the crisis at out of their comfort zones, because the kind of action hand. needed to address the urgency and scale of the climate Many Members will be alarmed by reports from the and ecological crisis can take place only outside of former president of the UN climate summit that the those comfort zones. If the Government are sincere Government are about the scale and urgency of the problem, we will not “miles off track” continue to hear about endless plans, pledges and in setting a positive agenda for COP26, and that promises consultations, but will see concrete actions in the here of action and now. COP26 is a historic opportunity that simply “are not close to being met”. cannot be botched, yet sadly everything we have seen and heard points to this whole process being recklessly What does the Minister have to say in response to mismanaged under the stewardship of this Prime Minister. assertions that preparations for COP26 are I will end with some advice from the outgoing president “mired in chaos and confusion”?—[Official Report, 3 February of the UN climate summit: 2020; Vol. 671, c. 34.] “My advice to anybody to whom Boris is making promises— In the light of those significant concerns, will the Minister whether it is voters, world leaders, ministers, employees or indeed, agree to provide the House next month with a substantive to family members—is to get it in writing, get a lawyer to look at briefing update on preparations for COP26? it and make sure the money is in the bank.” The question of how to support the countries most That is what all of us in this room must resolve to do. affected by the impacts of climate change has been a long-running debate at COPs over the years and is an important factor in achieving climate justice. After a Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): If everybody sticks year that has seen the likes of Hurricane Dorian and to about six minutes, we should get all Back Benchers Cyclone Idai inflict extreme losses on disadvantaged in. If you do not stick to six minutes, I will introduce a communities across the developing world, addressing time limit. the issue of climate finance can no longer be delayed. Will the Minister outline for us the UK’s position on climate finance for poorer nations? How does he propose 2.44 pm to involve disadvantaged groups in the planning and Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con): I begin by congratulating policy-making process, so that those individuals have a the Prime Minister on launching the UN climate summit say in their own future? in London today. I had the pleasure of working with It is imperative that developing countries receive the Sir David Attenborough last year on tackling plastic support they need to adapt to the impacts of climate pollution, and I am delighted that such a revered change and reduce their own emissions. Developing conservationist has today supported the Government countries should not be forced to choose between schools and the UK’s role as a world leader in tackling climate and medicine and coping with climate breakdown. Will change. I welcome the call this morning for international the Government commit to working with others at action to achieve global net zero emissions. I also thank 37WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 38WH the hon. Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome) Seema Malhotra: As somebody who has had an electric for securing today’s debate on the important subject of vehicle for a few years, I can attest to how incredible climate justice. they are. However, there continue to be issues with easy In my view, the science is clear: if we continue to access to vehicle charging, as well as the costs of the pump greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, climate vehicles themselves. Does the hon. Lady agree that, if change will continue to get worse and temperatures will there is to be the roll-out we want, prices need to come continue to rise, along with associated impacts and down and the industry needs to do more to ensure that risks—particularly severe and frequent extreme weather, electric vehicles are affordable for ordinary families including flooding, which affects my constituency of across the country? Stafford. To avoid the worst impacts of climate change, we need to stop adding to the greenhouse gases in the Theo Clarke: The hon. Lady makes a good point. In atmosphere. I was pleased that in 2008, the UK passed my constituency, it is hard for someone with an electric the Climate Change Act with huge cross-party consensus, vehicle to find a charging point, so I am encouraging becoming the first country in the world to set a legally the borough council to roll them out across the constituency. binding target for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. I Climate change is a global challenge that affects us am also pleased that the target is now to achieve an 80% all, not just within our national borders in the UK but reduction in those gases by 2050 from their 1990 levels. around the world. It makes us vulnerable to the impact The Government should be congratulated on their support that rising temperatures are having on the weather, food for, and investment in, clean energy since 2010. production and water resources. As climate extremes Reducing the impact of climate change is a matter of worsen, the world’s poorest countries and communities great interest to my constituents. We are currently having will be most affected. I agree with some of the points a public consultation across Stafford borough, through made earlier by the hon. Member for Nottingham East. which residents, businesses and organisations have the I acknowledge the work of UK aid, which has helped opportunity to give their views on the draft climate more than 47 million people to cope with and adapt to change strategy produced by Stafford Borough Council. the effects of climate change and natural disasters. I am This follows the council’s declaration of a climate change proud of the Government’s commitment to spend 0.7% emergency last year, with a commitment to be carbon of our gross national income on overseas development neutral by 2040. assistance. We must ensure that our aid is congruent with the goals of the Paris agreement. Seema Malhotra: I am very pleased to hear about I will give a few examples to show how the Department what is going on in the hon. Lady’s local authority; a for International Development makes a real difference similar approach has been taken by Hounslow council, on environmental issues. UK aid works with the Met and I congratulate it on having done so. Does she agree Office to provide communities in developing countries that not only should everybody participate in those with state-of-the-art weather information. In Uganda, opportunities where they are available, and that the it helps urban planners to identify the impacts of long-term House should send out that message, but that where climate change on urban water, sanitation and hygiene local authorities are not taking those steps, they should systems. be strongly encouraged to do so by the Government? Cutting-edge British research has identified the fact that the Sahel faces three times more mega-storms, Theo Clarke: I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. I some of which are the size of England, than previously. congratulate Stafford Borough Council on having been I am proud that British scientists are working with city recognised as one of the leaders in our region by a planners and officials in Burkina Faso to help to decide Friends of the Earth survey of local authorities, showing where hospitals and schools should be built and to that it has done a huge amount on this issue. I also draw protect them from future disasters. UK aid has provided attention to the city’s successful introduction of a number 17 million people with improved access to clean energy, of initiatives to reduce carbon emissions, as well as the which should be commended and, I hope, continued by number of plans for the future that the council has the Government. introduced, such as installing solar panels on the roof I encourage the Government to continue to invest in of our civic centre and attempting to reduce energy clean green technology, to preserve our natural habitats, consumption in our county council buildings. and to take measures to improve resilience to climate I am pleased that last year, the UK became the first change. I am pleased that today, the Prime Minister major economy to legislate for net zero by 2050. By reinforced his commitment to tackle climate change having declared net emission goals, Britain is a front and biodiversity simultaneously,recognising the important runner, along with a number of other countries including role of restoring our natural habitat. Norway, Iceland, Sweden, Costa Rica, France and New Hosting COP26 will be a major opportunity for the Zealand. I was also pleased that this morning, the UK and nations across the globe to step up the fight Government announced that we will be moving away against climate change. Five years on from the Paris from petrol and diesel vehicles, bringing the phase-out agreement, it is a fantastic opportunity to build on our date forward by five years—from 2040 to 2035—or world-leading net zero target and push for international earlier, if a faster transition is feasible. Of course, that progress to tackle climate change. I am pleased that the must be subject to consultation. We should also consider Government have set out an ambitious 2050 net zero including hybrids for the first time. target. We must also remember that, last year, the UK The Government should continue to work with all went coal-free for 18 days, which is a record. The UK sectors of industry to accelerate the roll-out of zero-emission has also pledged to phase out unabated coal completely vehicles, helping to deliver green jobs in the UK, including by 2025. We must use COP as a springboard to expand in my constituency of Stafford. the Powering Past Coal Alliance and to urge others to 39WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 40WH

[Theo Clarke] Wera Hobhouse: I completely agree, but unfortunately, the path to building net zero homes was stopped under join us in pledging net zero emissions. There is no the last Government. As a new Member, the hon. Lady greater responsibility than protecting our planet and is probably best placed to encourage the Government to that mission should be central to the Government. make sure that we build carbon zero homes. In fact, our The UK has a proud record of tackling climate target is for them to be carbon zero by 2021 and at change. We should raise our ambition this year to Passivhaus standard by 2025, because that is where we enable a greener future for all our children. I welcome ultimately need to get to. That cannot be the reserve of the fact that today marks the kick-off of a year of only those who can afford it, however, so how do we climate action, with events taking place in all four build a sustainable housing programme for social and nations of the UK. I encourage fellow hon. Members, affordable homes, not just the private sector? businesses and charities to participate in the run-up to Fairness means that the energy efficiency of social the upcoming summit in November. housing and rented property cannot be an optional extra but must be a requirement for anyone wishing to 2.53 pm be a landlord, so that it is part of letting a property for Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD): It is a pleasure to serve social housing providers and private landlords. A fair under your chairship, Sir Charles. I congratulate the transition is the only way to fight the climate emergency new Member, the hon. Member for Nottingham East while protecting the ideals of climate justice. A fair (Nadia Whittome), on securing this timely debate. I am transition also ensures that people buy into the more sure there will be many more, but it is good to start radical choices involved in climate action. The climate having the debate as early as possible. emergency will affect us all, but it will affect some of us more than others. The longer the Government wait to The climate crisis will affect us all, but not everybody implement meaningful climate action, the more people will be affected equally. If we allow it to get worse, it will will suffer. We are running out of time to smoothly create huge global inequalities on a scale that we have switch to a net zero Britain without compromising our never seen. Some parts of our planet will be much health, happiness and freedoms. worse hit than others, which will create extreme poverty, hardship, displacement and possibly even war. Those At the core of the Liberal Democrat plan to get to who are worse hit will be those already living in poverty net zero is a just transition commission to understand and struggling against extreme weather conditions. where the biggest economic impacts of changing to a As a Liberal, I care deeply about people from every net zero society will be, and to create future jobs before part of the world. People in China, Argentina, Nigeria the job losses in fossil fuel industries are incurred. We and Iran are our neighbours, which is why I try to call need to set up citizens’ assemblies to involve all parts of out human rights abuses wherever I witness them. The the public in the discussion, so that we formulate together point has already been clearly made that climate justice the aims and ambitions for getting to net zero fairly. and the fight for human rights are directly linked. I feel Most of all, the Government have to set out a credible called upon to avert the climate emergency, because it is coherent plan to set the direction for how the UK will about justice across the world and, ultimately, the human get to net zero. rights of people who live in areas of the world that will As the country that led the industrial revolution, we be much worse affected than here. have been one of the biggest polluters over time. We as a At our last conference, the Liberal Democrats agreed country have a moral duty to provide global leadership a credible plan for how the country could cut most of to tackle the climate emergency here and across the its emissions by 2030 and get to net zero by 2045. Our world without delay. approach is evidence-based and pro-innovation. We need to put British innovators at the forefront of the 2.59 pm fight against climate change. I agree with many hon. Members who have said that we do not need to be Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con): I doom and gloom, but we do need a plan to effect congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham East change. The most important question for this debate is (Nadia Whittome) on securing this very important and how we do that fairly in this country. timely debate. Today, the UK published its 2018 carbon In the context of climate justice,fairness means protecting emissions, which showed that carbon emissions in the the low paid, the elderly and the just about managing UK fell by 2.1% in 2018, down to 451.5 million tonnes. I from higher costs. It means an understanding that if an mention that number because it helps to put into perspective electric car costs more, only some people will be able to the challenge ahead of us. buy one, and thinking about how we can continue to I want to speak to a solution that might not immediately offer choices that are affordable to everybody. Of course, jump to colleagues’ minds as a cost-effective course of we need to make sure that we build sustainable public action for the UK Government to take. That solution is transport links and that public transport is affordable— empowering women and ensuring that girls have access currently, even that is not an affordable choice for many. to 12 years of quality education and to the same family planning choices as women get here in the UK. I was Fay Jones (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con): Does the astonished to learn that that intervention alone is the hon. Lady agree that there are opportunities in the single most powerful and most cost-effective step that housing sector to embed renewable infrastructure in we can take, as a world, to reduce the amount of carbon new housing developments and flats, so they are built that we will emit by 2050. It is truly astonishing. Some with renewables and electric charging points in mind, studies have said that such a step could save as much as and that we can take the opportunity to embed sustainability 120 gigatonnes of carbon from being emitted by 2050; in the construction sector in this year of all years? other studies have it at more than 100 gigatonnes. 41WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 42WH

A gigatonne is 1,000 million metric tonnes of carbon Britain, floods are hitting us harder and more often. and the UK emits 451.5 million tonnes of carbon, so we Climate breakdown is with us already, but still the could save 240 times what we currently emit annually. powerful ignore the warnings. It is a startling statistic that I thought deserved further Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): investigation, and I discovered that it comes about Will the hon. Lady give way? through a range of different interactions. Education speaks for itself, as we can see from extensive studies. Zarah Sultana: I apologise to the hon. Member—because For example, the International Institute for Applied of the time limit, I must progress. Systems Analysis discovered that a woman in Africa There was a time when many denied the science, but who has no access to any kind of family planning will today there is a different kind of denialism. They do not have, on average, 5.4 children, if she has no education at deny the science—they deny the politics. They pretend all—that is the mean outcome. If she goes to secondary that business as usual can combat the climate emergency, school, she will have, on average, 2.7 children. If she and that banning plastic straws, using bags for life or goes on to a college education, she will have 2.2 children. tweaking the system is enough. I am sorry—it is not, One of the effects of girls’ education is that women because the problems are not individual. They are collective. choose to have their families later and they tend to have It is the same politicians who tell us to ban plastic closer to a replacement number of children. It also, of straws who have left MPs’ pensions invested in deadly course, has an incredible impact on the ability of a fossil fuels, so hon. Members will understand why we women to earn over her lifetime, but it is the impact on do not have high hopes for COP26 later this year and carbon emissions that I found particularly startling. why we expect more platitudes and more hypocrisy. I Some 214 million women do not have access to modern ask hon. Members to take a lead from the students who birth control. If we give them the same kinds of choices have forced their universities to divest, and to divest that we have in the UK, that would add up to some very now. startling statistics. To prevent the climate emergency from becoming a To put the numbers in perspective, if we had climate catastrophe, we have to face up to what is comprehensive global coverage in onshore and offshore driving the crisis. The answer is clear. It is a capitalist wind, that would save 98.7 gigatonnes. If we completely crisis, driven by capitalism’s need for expansion and managed our refrigerants, that would save 89.74 gigatonnes. exploitation. It is not the fault of a few bad apples; the Reducing food waste would save 70.53 gigatonnes; switching entire system is rotten. It is a system that rose with the to a plant-rich diet would save 66.11 gigatonnes. coal mines and steam mills that powered Britain to Girls’ education is so valuable on so many fronts—as global dominance, and trashed the world’s climate to is, within that, the Government’s objective to champion win wealth for colonial powers. Today, the global south 12 years of education for everyone. It is not just a good still pays the price. If the climate crisis is a capitalist thing in and of itself, and good for the world economy; crisis, it is a neocolonial crisis too. Those least to there is this startling statistic of how education combined blame—the global south and the global working class—will with access to UK levels of modern family planning be hardest hit. While the world burns, the rich will build would save 120 gigatonnes of carbon being emitted into higher walls to protect themselves. They will let climate the atmosphere by 2050. refugees drown and the dispossessed starve. 3.4 pm That is one future, but there is another. If we unite Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab): It is a pleasure people across borders, and recognise that in this fight to serve under your chairpersonship, Sir Charles. I our enemy travels by private jet and not migrant dinghy, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham we can have a global green new deal, and it will look like East (Nadia Whittome) on securing this debate. this: dismantling the fossil fuel industry; taking resources away from a handful of private profiteers, and using My generation grew up to the sound of climate them to plan a better future; insulating our homes and warnings. Before I was even born, the Intergovernmental designing new green industries; building free public Panel on Climate Change had said that human activity transport and creating millions of good, unionised jobs. was to blame for a planet that was quickly getting That is how we unite black and white, north and south, hotter, and every few years since, it has warned that we migrants and those born here, people in Britain and are on course to do “irreversible damage” to ecosystems people overseas. We all have an interest in survival. That and species. Two years ago, it said that preventing is how we can build a world that is truly our own, with climate catastrophe would require, opportunities for all. “rapid, far-reaching and unprecedented changes in all aspects of society”. Plenty of people will call me naive, but the real naivety is to pretend we have another choice.My generation Since its first meeting more than three decades ago, CO2 emissions have risen by more than 40%. They continue grew up watching global leaders bail out banks but to rise, and the powerful continue to ignore the warnings. ignore the warnings of a planet on fire. To stop that, we must finally make good on the promise of an old The effects are with us now. This winter, Australia socialist hymn. With a global green new deal, we will burned and Indonesia drowned. Twenty-nine people died in the fires and 66 people drowned in the floods. “bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old”. Across the world, we see it again and again. The Solomon Islands are disappearing beneath the Pacific, forcing 3.9 pm people to flee. Mozambique was battered by two of the Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): It is a worst storms in the continent’s history last year, which pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Charles. I claimed the lives of more than 1,300 people. The Amazon congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham East rainforest—the lungs of our planet—was set alight by (Nadia Whittome) on a compelling speech and on warmer, drier weather and reckless profiteers. Here in securing this important debate. 43WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 44WH

[Caroline Lucas] become the established shorthand for climate action, let us examine what that little word “net” in net zero Climate change is happening now, and those who actually means. In the Committee on Climate Change have done the least to cause it are the ones who stand to pathway to net zero there lies positively heroic, for lose the most. Climate justice, to put it bluntly, is a which read criminally reckless, assumptions about the question of who lives and who dies. With a commitment potential for negative emission technologies to suck to reaching net zero emissions now in law, I want to carbon out of the atmosphere. Let us be really clear that look at three areas that will determine whether the UK’s the technologies are mostly yet unproven and in some climate pathway will be a just one: the speed at which cases entirely unknown. In other words, we are simply we decarbonise; how we decarbonise; and the degree of passing the buck to our children. They are the ones we co-operation shown to other nations as we do. hope will sort it out with some kind of technology. We First, speed. From a climate justice perspective, a net do not even know what it is yet, and I think we should zero target of 2050 is simply not good enough. The be honest about what we are doing. The level of warning Paris agreement commits countries to try to hold the we have currently locked in means that we are bequeathing global temperature rise to 1.5°. In its landmark report, to future generations a more dangerous world to inhabit. the IPCC headline was clear: to stay below 1.5°, global Leaving them with the burden and cost of highly speculative emissions must halve by 2030 and reach net zero around technological solutions is a grave injustice that we should mid-century. Let us remember that that is for only for a avoid. greater than 50% chance of staying within this level of Finally,I want to talk about international co-operation. heating, which, to me, does not sound like comfortable The UK does not exist in a climate vacuum. We have odds. By any measure of fairness, the UK has a clear emitted far more than our fair share of the historic responsibility to go faster than the global average. We carbon budget. It has seen our economy, our wealth are historically one of the biggest emitters. We started and our living standards increase dramatically, but it the modern fossil-fuel age with the industrial revolution, has also seen the lives of other people imperilled. We and the UK is one of the very largest per capita contributors and other rich nations have used so much of the to present climate change. Wealso have a greater capability atmosphere’s capacity that we have pulled up the ladder than other countries. We are the fifth biggest economy behind us, excluding developing countries from the and we have a GDP per person over two and a half path that we have travelled. Natural justice dictates that times the global average, so we have to go further. we must now support other countries to adapt to the What would an equity-based emissions reduction growing impact of climate change and compensate target for the UK look like? Professor Tim Jackson them fairly for losses and damages where adaptation is from the University of Surrey has given us a rough no longer an option. It requires a new fossil fuel-free guide. By taking the IPCC’s per capita carbon budget development pathway,where less affluent countries leapfrog for 1.5° and adjusting it to allow each person in the to a clean and sustainable future of higher living standards. poorest half of the world 33% higher emissions than One aspect of that concerns the transfer of technology. each person in the richest half as an example of how to The UK leads the world in offshore wind and CCS work on an equitable basis, Professor Jackson estimates development. We must transfer and make them available the UK’s share of the remaining global budget as two for the poorest countries to harness cheaply. As hosts of and a half gigatonnes of CO2. On our current emissions the UN climate summit this November, we have an reduction trajectory, counting only the UK’s production incredible opportunity to reach out internationally in emissions, we will smash through that target in 2026. If true climate leadership, to begin to make the reparations we aim to reach net zero in 2050 on a linear emissions for the injustices of climate change and to take responsibility pathway, we will use around two and a half times our for the full impact of our trade, money and influence. fair share of emissions, but if we are to include our I have spoken about the kind of accounting that consumption emissions—something I will return to in a allows us to make it look as if our emissions have moment—the budget on our current trajectory is exceeded reduced far faster than they have. When we account for in 2023, and a linear emissions pathway to net zero in consumption emissions, our progress looks much less 2050 would consume around four times our fair share. significant. It is also the case that our money and There are many other ways of trying to cut the influence is used to actively fuel emissions overseas and climate cake. Looking at it from a from an equitable lock other countries into the next generation of fossil perspective, a greenhouse development rights framework fuel infrastructure. As the hon. Member for Nottingham was set out in the 2019 report by the Committee on East pointed out, more than £1.5 billion of UK Export Climate Change on net zero. It cut the cake slightly Finance money went into oil and gas projects. It is no differently, but it pointed out that the UK would have to wonder the Environmental Audit Committee and Bond, reach 100% net emissions reductions by 2033 at the latest the UK network for development organisations, have if we were to proceed on an equitable basis, and that called for an end to all UK Export Finance support for means that by 2050 we would need to be net negative, fossil fuels. That is what I want to underline yet again. I drawing down more than half of our 1990 level of know that it has been asked before by the hon. Member emissions. To be absolutely clear, however politically for Nottingham East, but I want to urge the Government expedient a 2050 net zero target might be, it cannot be Minister to demonstrate some seriousness when it comes said to be just. It will further exacerbate the inequalities to climate justice and at the very least to rule out any that climate change presents and push the burden once further use of UK Export Finance for fossil fuels. again on those who have done least to cause it. A second consideration when it comes to the issue of 3.16 pm justice is about how we make the transition, which has Olivia Blake (Sheffield, Hallam) (Lab): I congratulate major justice implications both for those in the global my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East south and for future generations. Now that net zero has (Nadia Whittome) on securing this debate and on giving 45WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 46WH us an opportunity to discuss the climate crisis. It is the capital to finance fossil fuel extraction in the global greatest existential threat of our time and climate justice south, undermining the effect of the UK’scarbon emissions is becoming increasingly urgent. It is timely that this cuts and any commitment to climate justice. debate has been called ahead of Parliament’s voting on The climate crisis is a threat to us all, but we do not the Government’s Environment Bill. As colleagues know, all face it equally. In fact, we must remember those who much has been made of the Government’s ambitious have already tragically lost their lives, swept up in the target to decarbonise by 2050, but it is simply a headline. climate disaster, trying to protect communities and At the moment, it is a plan. fight for the frontline of public services across the When we talk about climate change, we speak about world. The Government need to end their support for the climate emergency. The summer saw swathes of the climate colonialism and penalise banks that are accelerating Amazon burn, and Australia is currently fighting the climate breakdown at the frontlines. Climate justice wildfires that have gripped areas the size of our own absolutely requires recognising and mitigating the worst counties, so we are right to speak in terms of an effects of the crisis and facilitating environmental migration emergency. However, I fear there is no recognition of in response to disaster displacement, which is unavoidable that emergency in the Government’s response to the at this point. Fundamentally, we need to take a radical crisis so far beyond declaring one. There is no sense of approach. Let us take as our starting point the root urgency. There is more CO2 in our atmosphere now cause of the issue—where our Government are accelerating than at any point in human history, so before we pat and exacerbating climate breakdown. Climate justice ourselves on the back for small reductions in production—as means acting now to stem the worst effects of the crisis, has been mentioned, the offshoring of our share hides and for that we need to take aim at the banks that are the truth on consumption—we must remember that we choking our future. Our inaction is also choking our need to up our game and set out a radical course of future. We continually raise the issue not to try to be a action. We cannot let COP26 be a cop-out. It is our last thorn in anyone’s side, but to be the roots that can lead chance to correct the path to climate disaster. to a shoot of hope for future generations. Locally, Sheffield City Council has declared a climate emergency and has set out a carbon budget with the Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Thanks to the Tyndall Centre, which shows the city would use its discipline of colleagues, the Front-Bench speakers have entire budget for the next 20 years in less than six. approximately 12 minutes each, leaving two minutes at Rightly, it has set a course to try to get to net zero by the end for the Member who moved the debate to 2030. Before Christmas, again, communities across South sum up. Yorkshire experienced flooding. The impact of an international crisis played out locally. If the UK was 3.21 pm serious about preventing climate breakdown, we would Chris Law (Dundee West) (SNP): As ever, it is a not be seeing more investment going into drilling in new pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Charles. oilfields or building more pipelines. Instead we see I congratulate the hon. Member for Nottingham East UK-headquartered banks and the Government bankrolling (Nadia Whittome) on securing this hugely important fossil fuel extraction and directing more and more finance debate. The beginning of the new Parliament is the to fossil fuel companies, rather than solutions to the perfect time to raise the issue. crisis. If we were serious about climate justice, the I am delighted to be continuing in my role as the Government would regulate and penalise private banks Scottish National party shadow International Development for providing billions for fossil fuel extraction at home Secretary. I am particularly focused on the need to and abroad. tackle climate change globally and to ensure that there Between 2016 and 2018, HSBC gave $57 billion to is climate justice. That, I believe, will be a regular topic, the fossil fuel industry. Barclays, the biggest funder of if not the key topic, in this Parliament, and the defining fossil fuel infrastructure in Europe, gave almost $25 billion feature of the next decade. Prior to last year’s general to fossil fuel companies in 2018 alone. The Government election, I was proud to propose the opening resolution— offered only £100 million of private investment for passed by acclaim—at the SNP conference on climate renewable energy investment in sub-Saharan Africa in justice. We recognise that, while it has been the most 2018, which shows the difference in scale. Through their developed and industrialised countries that have been campaigns, organisations such as People & Planet and the biggest contributors to carbon emissions, it is the Greenpeace have brought to light the fact that our poorest communities in the world who feel the devastating banks have been acting like fossil fuel companies with impact of climate change. We must recognise this reality the amount of extraction they are financing, showing a and our obligation to right this wrong. Countries that determination to see the industry continue. It needs to have become prosperous while damaging the environment stop. Without further regulations and legislation for have a responsibility to help developing countries adapt our financial system there will be almost free rein to to the consequences of climate change. continue to make our worlds toxic and to continue to That is not just empty rhetoric. The SNP Scottish push us over the cliff we are balanced on, with temperatures Government have been at the forefront of the global potentially soaring by three degrees, which we know fight, tackling climate change and delivering climate will be catastrophic. justice, and showed bold leadership in establishing the Average wildlife populations have already dropped world’s first climate justice fund in 2012. By 2021, by 60% in 40 years, so we must act now and take our £21 million will have been distributed through the fund, responsibilities seriously or risk further loss of species which is now supporting projects in Malawi, Zambia, and populations. The Government are not exempt, Tanzania and Rwanda. Some of the fund’s successes so either. In June, the Environmental Audit Committee far include establishing 217 village-level committees to exposed how UK Export Finance had been using British support water resource management and resilience, 47WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 48WH

[Chris Law] whereby international climate finance spending to tackle climate change is undermined by support for the fossil improving agricultural practices and irrigation services fuel economy in developing countries by UK Export for more than 11,000 people, and providing 110,000 Finance, as has been mentioned several times in the people with training in climate change. Going forward, debate. That will leave a legacy of dependency on fossil the climate challenge programme in Malawi will support fuels and will disincentivise investment in renewables. rural communities to identify and implement their own Therefore, climate change should be an explicit strategic solutions for adapting to and building resilience against priority across all Departments. It is overdue and needs the worst effects of climate change. to be addressed now. Similarly, the climate justice innovation fund will The sacking last week of Claire O’Neill, the former support projects that are developing innovative solutions Minister of State at the Department for Business, Energy for strengthening African communities against the effects and Industrial Strategy, as president for COP26 has of climate change. The most recent projects to have shown what a complete shambles the UK Government secured funding address deforestation, food security are in. Their approach to international climate change and rural water supplies, while also empowering women, policy has been patchy at best. On Radio 4 this morning youth and other disenfranchised, vulnerable stakeholders Claire O’Neill said that the Prime Minister has shown in those communities. Through the climate justice fund, “a huge lack of leadership and engagement”, the Scottish Government are promoting the economic and that he benefits of a just and fair transition to a low-carbon economy.The fund aims to share the benefits of equitable “doesn’t really understand climate change”, global development and the burdens of climate change leading the UK to be through a people-centred, human rights approach. “miles off globally from where we need to be”. What I have outlined has been done with a fund of It is therefore little wonder that the Prime Minister is £21 million over nine years, which has delivered incredible doing everything in his power to stop the Scottish results. Just think of the potential if the UK were to Government being represented at COP26 in Glasgow follow the same model, given the scale of its resources. later this year. To put it simply, the Prime Minister does We hope that, through our example of leading on the not want to be upstaged and embarrassed by First issue of climate justice, we can embolden others in Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who certainly does recognise the international community. It is therefore vital that the urgency and moral responsibility that we have with the UK Government follow the Scottish Government’s climate change, and who leads a Government whose lead. Indeed, last year’s report by the International work has been described by the UN climate change Development Committee on UK aid for combatting secretary as “exemplary”. climate change highlighted the usefulness of climate Putting it frankly, if the UK Government are not justice as a framework for policies and programmes and willing or able to properly prepare to host what is a called for the UK Government to adopt the concept of major international event, perhaps they should speak climate justice explicitly, to guide its international climate with the First Minister for some blunt advice. As things finance spending. However, that has so far been stand, it is impossible to conclude anything other than misrepresented or misunderstood by Secretaries of State that the UK Government are in a shambles and are or other Ministers when addressing the House of playingpoliticswiththeglobalclimateemergency.Therefore, Commons, or has simply fallen on deaf ears. if the UK Government are serious about alleviating the The report was also clear that DFID must have harm that climate change will bring to some of the adequate resources. Evidence to the Committee suggested world’s most vulnerable communities, they must follow that DFID’s capacity and expertise on climate had been the bold leadership of the Scottish Government and the reduced in recent years. That is not indicative of a recommendations of the International Development Government who are tackling climate change and climate Committee and explicitly adopt the concept of climate justice at the heart of their agenda. It is vital that DFID justice to guide their climate spending. To do anything rectify that and that it should have sufficient members less is to reject our global commitments, our global of staff who have climate expertise and are focused on partners and our global responsibility.While it is obvious climate programming. Furthermore, DFID must remain to most that Brexit will undoubtedly make the UK a strong stand-alone Department if the UK is serious smaller and poorer, not taking climate justice seriously about climate justice. Development spending must be will also make it both short and brutish. focused on helping the poorest and most vulnerable, The SNP has every reason to be proud of its record in and on alleviating global poverty. If we are to embrace championing climate justice abroad. More than 75% of the concept of climate justice and help the worst-off the mentions of “climate justice” in the past decade in deal with the effects of climate change, we must have a this Parliament have come from SNP MPs. I hope to see Department equipped to do that, rather than one that the same interest in the subject on the UK Government views development through the ideological prism of Benches in this Parliament. The simple fact is that we national and commercial interest. face a climate emergency that threatens us all. It will Trade and development are distinctly two different result in a less safe world, where ecological and demographic areas and they must not be forced together at the crises are unmanageable and where the development expense of the world’smost vulnerable people, particularly gains that have been made will be reversed. What good in the midst of a climate emergency. That is a growing is our work on delivering aid for the world’s poorest and concern for me and my party, and for NGOs at national most vulnerable if it is undermined by disasters, disease, and international level. In addition, there must be policy and displacement caused by climate change? It is now coherence on climate change across Government. We time to put climate justice at the forefront of aid spending simply cannot have the situation that currently exists, and urgently do all we can to address the crisis. 49WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 50WH

3.29 pm around the world. She talked about enormous scales of improvements and carbon reductions, but they do not Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op): It is a even factor in that, if we had a basic level of education pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Charles. for women and girls around the world and the freedoms When I sawthis debate on the list of upcoming Westminster that go with it, we would also have better leadership. Hall debates, I was keen to participate not only because The scope for making much greater inroads into other it is such an important topic, but because it is being led knotty climate challenges—in fact, into all our global by my constituency neighbour and hon. Friend the challenges—would be enormous, too. Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome). It is a real privilege to respond for the Opposition. My hon. Friend the Member for Coventry South My hon. Friend is quickly making her mark on the (Zarah Sultana) made a critical point that came up in House, and I know she will be a strong voice for our the election when we talked to people on the doorstep, community in Nottingham and for communities around and to which we have to keep returning at all times: the world who need people to stand up for them. I have climate change is not a theoretical exercise, but is happening known her for a number of years, and she has shared now. That not only behoves us to take immediate action, her voice, her power and her platform—be it for a but reminds us that our actions are late. As such, they popular or an unpopular cause—with people who are need to come with the scale and ambition that mean we in need and who are without a voice or power. I know are catching up. In that vein, the hon. Member for she will bring great credit to herself and our city in her Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) reminds us of our time as an MP. We in Nottingham are proud that we historic obligations—the duality of having both a historical will be the first city in this country to be carbon neutral, legacy but also the greatest capacity for change. which was born out of community activism and We in Britain have a real responsibility to take global campaigning. People took to the streets of Nottingham leadership. I suspect the Minister will start with that, and pestered their elected leadership by being clear because most, if not all, Government Ministers do so. about what they wanted on this issue. Local leaders We are in danger of believing our own hype that we are then reflected that by making it into policy, which is doing enough with our current emissions reductions. It exactly how things should be. is great to see the reductions, but they are not enough. Members of different parties have made a number of We must take a real global lead by using our assets. As excellent contributions to the debate. I took double my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hallam pleasure in the contribution from the hon. Member for (Olivia Blake) said, that is inconsistent with the decisions Stafford (Theo Clarke), who has such a strong record being taken on drilling, oil deals and fossil fuels, to from her professional experience. I know she will be a which I will return shortly. strong advocate for an independent, well-resourced DFID. I will make a couple more points. We had the COP26 My previous winding-up speech for the Opposition was announcements today, but I want to talk about an in the dying embers of the last Parliament, and sitting announcement from two weeks ago, not least because I about three chairs down from where she is sitting was raised this issue at departmental questions last Wednesday her predecessor, Jeremy Lefroy, who is remembered and the Minister accused me of not having read the fondly in this place for his contributions on a variety of announcement. I thought it slightly unkind, not least issues, but especially on international development—there because I was quoting verbatim from a written answer is clearly something in the water in Stafford. I take her from the Minister for the Middle East and North Africa, point on the importance of the congruence of ODA the right hon. Member for South West Wiltshire policy and the Paris goals, and Britain’sclimate obligations. (Dr Murrison). I will return to that later, because we are at a point where they are starting to diverge. Two weeks ago, the Prime Minister stood at a I turn to the contribution from the hon. Member for podium—he was probably waving his hands around—at Bath (Wera Hobhouse), who made an important point the UK-Africa investment summit and made his flagship about our neighbours. Everyone is our neighbour. We announcement on the climate emergency.He told 16 heads talk about constituency neighbours, but our fates are so of state and the world’s media that the UK would stop intrinsically linked these days. We are on the same investment and development assistance for coal mining planet currently hurtling headlong towards the same and coal-fired power stations overseas. Garlands flowed dreadful fate, so we have a real job of solidarity and from virtually all our newspapers, and there was a real responsibility to each other. I was very pleased to hear sense that it was a seismic and totemic moment for such her talk about the importance of citizens’ assemblies, as a promise to come from the Prime Minister. Looking at other Members did. I will make a shameless plug as the the announcement and what it really means, the reality chair of the all-party parliamentary group for deliberative is that UK aid funds have not been used to support coal democracy—all allies are welcome. For the climate since 2012, nor had UK Export Finance supported coal emergency and many more issues, our democracies overseas since 2002. It was a re-announcement of something would be strengthened by bringing people in and having that had happened many years ago. proper, evidence-based conversations on thorny topics. There is nothing new in spin—I confess that I have The hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett used a bit in the past—but this is too important an issue Baldwin) mentioned an extraordinary fact about the on which to equivocate. Although the Government impact of gender and of all girls around the world were briefing one thing on climate and saying what getting 12 good years of education. My heart leapt wonderful progress was being made, they were actually when she brought gender into the discussion, as we very busy doing quite the opposite at the summit. The ought to be feeding it into every debate in this place. Government helped strike £2 billion-worth of energy Meeting only a basic decent standard would help us deals, 90% of which were for fossil fuels, primarily oil tackle climate inequalities and all sorts of inequalities and gas. The five fossil fuel deals include an investment 51WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 52WH

[Alex Norris] the need for financing for loss and damage, so will the Government consider doing so ahead of COP? Will the of £26 million in gas assets in Tunisia by Anglo Tunisian Minister ensure that the tab is picked up by the world’s Oil and Gas, and an investment of £1.2 billion in oil worst polluters, and that it is not subsidised solely by production in Kenya by Tullow. British taxpayers, the vast majority of whom have not The Government might well make a case for why they benefited and, indeed, are living with the impacts should support and broker investment in fossil fuels, themselves—another hidden local injustice? and they ought to, clearly and honestly. The Minister Fifthly, we urge the Government to take immediate has a platform, and I call on him to make it clear what action to cut the UK’s carbon emissions in the coming was done at the summit and why it is important. It months before the conference so that we set an example should be debated publicly—that is how it should work. for other wealthy nations. We should be pleased with The public ought to be able to make their own assessment the progress that has been made—I know what the of whether their leaders understand the greatest challenge Minister will say about our record in recent years—but of our time, and whether our actions match up with the we should have an honest conversation with people, rhetoric. When we stand at a podium and say we are because this is about not just our raw top-line emissions doing one thing, and then quietly do another in the figures but our consumption figures, as the hon. Member backrooms, it serves nobody. It certainly does not serve for Brighton, Pavilion said. Let us have an honest, debate and will not tackle the existential challenge that in-the-round conversation, and be really clear about we collectively face. As we go into COP26, I hope we what we are doing and the improvements we are making can use the announcements, including today’s, to have so that we can be global leaders. proper and honest conversations about climate justice It is time for us to step up as global leaders, not just and the climate emergency. on tackling the climate emergency so that future generations I will make a point on climate justice and ask the have a planet, but on ensuring that the outcomes are Minister a few questions. I am grateful to my hon. just and that we do not make the same unequal errors Friend the Member for Nottingham East for raising that we made in the past. I look forward to hearing the this issue—we talk a lot about the climate emergency, Minister’s views. I once again express my gratitude to and we ought to do so. It is the question of our time and my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham East for leads to a technical question: what can we do to tackle securing and leading this important debate. the issue? What should we do to reduce carbon, and how can we save our planet for future generations? In Sir Charles Walker (in the Chair): Minister, would answering that, we miss the challenge of fairness and you leave two minutes at the end, for the mover to justice, because it is seen as a lesser emergency. However, wind up? there is no true solution to the climate emergency unless it is just. 3.41 pm I will put on record five ways that the UK could The Minister of State, Department for International adopt a full climate justice approach at COP26, and I Development (Andrew Stephenson): I am grateful to the would be interested in the Minister’s reflections on hon. Member for Nottingham East (Nadia Whittome) them. First, we need to provide climate finance for for securing this important debate on climate justice. I adaptation, resilience and mitigation, which should be am also grateful for the contributions from my hon. targeted at the people who are worst affected. Will the Friend the Member for Stafford (Theo Clarke), the hon. Minister consider embedding the principles and standards Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse), my hon. Friend of the ODA in climate finance spending, to ensure that the Member for West Worcestershire (Harriett Baldwin), it explicitly reaches those who are most marginalised? and the hon. Members for Coventry South (Zarah Secondly, it is long overdue that the UK ends its Sultana), for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), for investment, finance and aid funding for oil, gas and Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake), for Dundee West (Chris fossil fuels overseas. Will the Government immediately Law) and for Nottingham North (Alex Norris). It is switch their support for energy overseas to renewable particularly apt that every Back-Bench speaker has energies? In the light of what outgoing COP chair been female, given that my predecessor, my hon. Friend Claire O’Neill said, did the Prime Minister understand the Member for West Worcestershire, touched on the the other elements of his announcement on coal? Will role that women can play in addressing the injustices of the Minister make it clear how the announcement of climate change. divestment from coal, which has previously happened, At same time as severe drought across east Africa has is compatible with the deals that were struck? left 15 million people in need of food aid, devastating Thirdly, as the demand for renewable energy expands, fires have raged across Australia. These events serve to we cannot simply replicate previous injustices by allowing remind us again that no country is immune from the large corporations to extract raw materials for products effects of climate change and environmental degradation. such as solar panels on the back of cheap labour and Here in the UK, the Met Office predicts that our conflict. Can the Minister assure us that people in the summers will become hotter and drier and our winters global south will not be exploited anew in the quest for increasingly warmer and wetter. As recently as November new resources? What will we do differently to ensure 2019, flooding across South Yorkshire, Derbyshire, that outcomes are more just in the future? Nottinghamshire, Lincolnshire and West Mercia, left Fourthly, those affected will not get justice until the more than 1,000 homes flooded and over 500 businesses international community and the UK start to find ways impacted. to make amends for our role in historical emissions—that As all hon. Members said, on a cross-party basis, the relates to the point made by the hon. Member for science is clear: carbon levels in the atmosphere have Brighton, Pavilion. The UK can start by recognising reached their highest for 3 million years and climate 53WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 54WH extremes are already damaging prosperity, security and London, young people in a number of schools are human safety globally. I am proud that the UK is at the having to use masks because the air quality is so bad. forefront of action to tackle climate change, both Does the Minister agree that the lack of an emissions domestically and internationally. In June 2019, we set a target in the Environment Bill means that it will not legally binding target to achieve net zero greenhouse address the problem? Until the Government commit to gas emissions across the UK economy by 2050. We are that, it does not matter if we continue to change our the first major economy in the world to legislate for a vehicles. We need key action on this really important net zero target, which will end the UK’s contribution to issue. climate change. We have already shown that, with our world-leading Andrew Stephenson: I agree: we need to go further scientists, business leaders and innovators, it is possible and faster. Today’s announcement is encouraging. As a to cut emissions while growing the economy. Between former Minister for the automotive sector, I remember 1990 and 2017, we reduced our emissions by more than working on the “Road to Zero” policy paper, which 40% while growing our economy by more than two looked at how we can roll out electric vehicles across the thirds. We have decarbonised our economy faster than UK even faster than we planned. We were always keen any other G20 country. to review the evidence and be guided by the science on how we can move these things forward. I welcome the Caroline Lucas: Not only is the Minister once again Prime Minister’s announcement today on that increasing looking only at production emissions, not consumption ambition, but we always need to look at ways to go emissions, he is refusing to accept the fact that, when further. This debate is about climate justice, and air talking about emissions reduction—sorry, it has gone pollution disadvantages disproportionately the most out of my head. I am going to sit down and come back disadvantaged communities in this country. We need to to it because it has just gone, but it will come back any work together and be ambitious. We need to look at second. decarbonising the whole transport sector. We have been most successful so far in the energy sector, but transport Andrew Stephenson: I can predict what the hon. Lady still has a long way to go. I welcome the ambition today, was going to say, and I am sure she can predict my but I agree with the hon. Lady that we need to go answer. further and faster. We need to invest more in our world-leading expertise, Caroline Lucas: It has come back to me. Does the particularly in the north of England, where one in five Minister really think that it is possible to absolutely of all the electric vehicles sold in Europe are made, the decouple growth from emissions reduction? His statement world’s biggest offshore wind turbines are being built, implies that he thinks that that absolute decoupling is and carbon capture and storage is being pioneered. In possible, and that one can get to the point of separating addition, last week in the House of Commons we growth from emissions growth. There is absolutely no introduced the Environment Bill, which sets out how we evidence anywhere in the world that decoupling on the plan to protect and improve the natural environment in scale, speed and absoluteness that we need is possible. the United Kingdom. The Bill will ensure that the There is nothing to reassure us that it is possible to go environment is front and centre in our future policymaking. on growing while bringing down our emissions. It will support the delivery of the most ambitious environmental programme of any country in the world. Andrew Stephenson: The hon. Lady and I take a That landmark Bill will enhance wildlife, tackle air different approach. The Government believe that it is pollution, transform the way in which we manage our important to protect jobs and the economy. We can still resources and waste, and improve the resilience of our grow the economy, but we can do it in a sustainable, water supplies. The speedy return of the Bill to Parliament balanced way. A lot of people, including the hon. Lady following the general election underlines our commitment in the past, are guilty of suggesting that we have to stop to tackling climate change and protecting and restoring all economic growth in order to achieve that, but we our natural environment for future generations, as we cannot. We have to harness the expertise of the private maximise the opportunities created by leaving the European sector and the public sector. Everybody must work Union. together to achieve what we want. That is what we have done: we have led the G20 over recent years by taking We are making net zero a reality as we raise our that balanced approach. ambition at home. We will use the opportunity of Since we set our net zero target, we have committed COP26—officially launched by the Prime Minister earlier around £2 billion to support clean growth in a range of today—to demonstrate global leadership on climate sectors, from transport to industry. In July, we published action and bring the world together to achieve real our green finance strategy, setting out our approach to progress. As has been said, it is often the poorest catalysing the investment in green infrastructure, countries and people who are the worst affected and technologies and services that will be needed to deliver least prepared to deal with the impacts of climate net zero. Earlier today, the Prime Minister announced change, environmental degradation and biodiversity loss. that a ban on selling new petrol, diesel and hybrid cars That triple threat threatens to undo decades of progress in the UK will be brought forward from 2040 to 2035 at towards the sustainable development goals. The World the latest, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford Bank estimates that, unless serious and urgent action is said. taken, 100 million people are at risk of being pushed into poverty by climate change by 2030. Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op): On the We are committed to supporting the most vulnerable point about vehicles, in my constituency of Vauxhall, countries adapt and build their resilience and to supporting which is the start of the congestion charge zone in low-carbon growth and development. We remain the 55WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Climate Justice 56WH

[Andrew Stephenson] for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and DFID, to bring expertise to both Departments and determine only major economy in the world to put into law our how we can better collaborate to tackle the issue. commitment to meet the internationally agreed target Turning to the UK-Africa investment summit, which of investing 0.7% of our national income on international was also mentioned, we may not agree, but energy is development. That shows that we are an enterprising, essential to economic growth and poverty reduction. outward-looking and truly global Britain that is fully Currently, 840 million people have no access to electricity, engaged with the world. and 2.9 billion have no access to clean cooking. Our We are committed to transforming the lives of the priority is to help developing countries to establish a world’s poorest and most vulnerable people by giving secure and sustainable energy supply while supporting them access to quality education and jobs, about which climate and environmental objectives. Increasing our my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for West overseas development support for renewable energy has Worcestershire, spoke so eloquently, and by supporting been the top priority. Since 2011, UK aid has provided millions in dealing with the impacts of climate change more than 26 million people with improved access to and environmental degradation while promoting Britain’s clean energy and installed 1,600 MW in clean energy economic, security and foreign policy interests. capacity. Since 2011, our international climate programmes We recognise that countries will continue to need a have helped 57 million people cope with the effects of mix of energy sources as part of a transition to a climate change; provided 26 million people with improved low-carbon sustainable economy, including renewable access to clean energy; and helped to reduce greenhouse energy and lower-carbon fossil fuels such as natural gas, gas emissions by 16 million tonnes, which is the equivalent which produces significantly less carbon than coal or of taking three million cars off the road for a year. In other commonly used fuels. Our approach to fossil fuels September, the Prime Minister committed to doubling is therefore to support them where there is a clear our international climate finance to at least £11.6 billion development need and as part of a transition to low-carbon over the next five years, which will make us one of the economies. When assessing new support, we will ensure world’s leading providers of climate finance. that assistance does not undermine the ambitions of a That funding really works. In 1991, a category 6 cyclone country’s nationally determined contributions, and that hit Bangladesh, killing 139,000 people. In 2007, an even an appropriate carbon price is used in the appraisal of stronger cyclone killed 4,000. That is still far too many the programme. deaths, but the incredible 97% reduction was achieved by Bangladesh’sinvestment in better disaster preparedness, Wera Hobhouse: We have about 30 years to get to net with support from international donors. zero. How long does it take to develop new fossil fuel UK Government research into drought-resistant wheat industries and then see them as a transition? They will varieties has delivered benefits more than 100 times just remain in place even though we have to reach net greater than costs, delivering an annual economic benefit zero. Does the Minister not recognise that we have run of between $2.2 billion and $3.1 billion. Our forestry out of time for a proper transition and have to get to net programmes have supported Indonesia in introducing zero as soon as possible? regulatory changes, including setting up independent monitoring and improving law enforcement. Today, Andrew Stephenson: We have to get to net zero as 100% of timber exports are sourced from independently soon as possible, but we have to do so in a balanced and audited factories and forests, and over 20.3 million proportionate way. To give an example, the oil and gas hectares of forest are independently certified. In Ethiopia, sector contribution to the Scottish economy is £16.2 billion our productive safety net programme helped to prevent in gross value added, and some 105,000 jobs in Scotland 4.2 million people from going hungry when the country are dependent on it. It would be slightly hypocritical of experienced severe drought. Our programmes have helped us to continue employing so many people in the oil and smallholder farmers in Burkina Faso deal with increased gas sector in the UK—we see it as part of our energy rainfall variability and higher temperatures; have assisted transition, using gas in particular to decarbonise our with the production of Kenya’s national climate change economy—if we were to say that other countries around action plan; developed early warning systems to reduce the world could not use gas as a low-carbon alternative the impacts of disasters in Chad; improved flood defences to the dirtier fossil that they use, particularly coal. We in South Sudan; and delivered solar power to clinics take a balanced approach on those matters, but I know across Uganda . that there will be disagreement across the House. Addressing the contribution from the hon. Member for Dundee West (Chris Law) gives me the opportunity I was pleased that in addition to the £6.5 billion-worth to acknowledge the efforts of the Scottish Government, of deals that were announced at the UK-Africa investment who have also recognised that the poor and vulnerable summit, we announced £1.5 billion of new DFID at home and overseas are the first to be affected by programmes to support sustainable growth across Africa. climate change and will suffer the worst. The Scottish We will continue to work in partnership with African Government’s work—particularly in Malawi, which he countries as part of our broader strategy for Africa, mentioned—continues to be cited by the Department which has seen a significant uplift in our resources on for International Development as a really good example. the continent for the first time in decades. I take exception, however, to the hon. Gentleman’s Successfully tackling climate change will require action claim that DFID’s expertise has been reduced in this from the whole of society: Governments, business, area. We have made a number of investments, and I communities and each of us in our individual choices. hope that he welcomes this Government’s appointment We know that the impacts of climate change will not be of Lord Goldsmith as a joint Minister for the Department borne equally between rich and poor, women and men, 57WH Climate Justice 4 FEBRUARY 2020 58WH and older and younger generations. At the start of her Local Housing Allowance: Homeless speech, the hon. Member for Nottingham East said Young People that climate justice means “addressing the climate crisis in a way that is fair and equitable.” [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] I agree, and that is fundamental to the Government’s approach. 4 pm As an international community, we must renew our Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I beg to efforts to achieve the sustainable development goals move, and fulfil our commitment to leave no one behind. The UK will not only play our part in that domestically, we That this House has considered local housing allowance rates will provide global leadership, as we invite the world to for homeless young people. Glasgow in November to agree on and increase the It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, urgent action that we need to take to protect our planet. Mr Hollobone. Clearly, we have a severe homelessness crisis. The 3.57 pm number of people sleeping rough on the streets of England has increased by a huge 165% since 2010, and Nadia Whittome: I thank the Minister for his response 103,000 young people were homeless or at risk in 2017-18. and every hon. Member who attended for their contribution. In my own city of Brighton and Hove, the scandal and I am reassured by the widespread recognition that climate tragedy of homelessness is acute. Vulnerable young change does not impact everyone and every nation people are being let down, left to sleep on sofas, in equally. It crosses borders and there is an urgent need to hostels and on our pavements, cold, frightened and invest in infrastructure and adaptation, and to decarbonise. desperately unsafe. I was particularly pleased that the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and others made The Minister himself has said, in answers to questions the point that 2050 is not good enough as a target for in the House, that the causes of homelessness are numerous, decarbonisation. I was also pleased to hear examples of varied and complex. He is right. In the short time we local authorities across the country leading the way to have today, I will address the specific problems caused reach net zero, particularly in our own city of Nottingham, to vulnerable young people by the significant gap between which is on track to be the first carbon-neutral city in the cost of renting in the private sector and the local the UK. housing allowance rates provided to the young people who need support. Whoever is in government or opposition, the climate Private renting is expensive, but because there is not emergency cannot wait. I look forward to working with enough social housing, young people are forced into the Members across the House to hold the Government to private rented sector as the only alternative to homelessness. account on their pledges. In that vein, I will follow up The House of Commons Library points to evidence with the Minister and I hope that he will respond in that in many areas, especially areas of high housing more detail to the questions that I have raised, particularly demand such as Brighton and Hove, there is a growing about whether the Government will rule out carbon gap between the lowest private rents and the amount of offsetting, why the climate sub-committee has not yet local housing allowance. Young people in Brighton and met and when it will do so, and whether he is prepared Hove have a particularly hard time because the amount to give a substantive update briefing on COP26 preparations of LHA is calculated by lumping our city in with other in the light of the serious concerns that have been towns in the locality where the cost of housing is much raised. lower. The amount of housing support is therefore Question put and agreed to. artificially depressed, leaving young people in an even Resolved, more desperate position. That this House has considered climate justice. Research by the Chartered Institute of Housing illustrates the dire situation for young people. In Brighton and Hove, 30% of properties should be available at or below the LHA rate, yet LHA is so much lower than local rents that only 10% of shared properties and only 5% of one-bedroom properties are affordable. Evidence is also provided by the National Audit Office, which in 2017 concluded that housing benefit changes were contributing to an increase in homelessness. As hon. Members know, the Government have taken some action. This April, there will be a one-off, 1.7% increase in LHA rates. That sounds positive until we look at what that means for the figures. In Brighton, young people will receive only £5 extra a month. That is a kick in the teeth for homeless young people who are already more than £140 a month short of the average rent for a room in a shared house, as I will explain. Furthermore, because the increase is a percentage, it locks in the freeze of the past four years. Toillustrate the point, the charity Centrepoint analysed the new LHA rates for 2020-21 alongside the average rental costs for the 247 local authorities where rental 59WH Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 60WH Young People Young People [Caroline Lucas] shortfall will be more than £236 a month. In the Minister’s own area of Colchester, the shortfall, as I am sure he data are available. It found that, from April, a room in a knows, will be £153 for a homeless young person. shared house would be affordable only in three of those The Minister may ask why young homeless people 247 local authority areas for those in receipt of the need the exemption from the shared accommodation shared accommodation rate. Rightly and urgently, rate when the Government have introduced some measures homelessness charities are calling for the local housing intended to mitigate the impacts of LHA restrictions. allowance, including the shared accommodation rate, to For example, in answer to a recent written question, the be set at the 30th percentile of local rents, as it was until Minister replied: 2012. I hope that the Minister will push the Treasury for the restoration of that link to rents. “For individuals who may require more support and whose circumstances may make it difficult for them to share accommodation, My more specific purpose in securing today’s debate, Discretionary Housing Payments are available.” however, is to urge the Minister to champion two other I urge the Minister, however, to consider the fact that actions that will cost the Treasury relatively little, but discretionary housing payments, or DHPs, are not a will have a massive impact on two groups of extremely sustainable solution. They are supposed to be a temporary vulnerable young people. The first group to need the measure until a household finds more affordable Minister’s help is homeless young people under the age accommodation. Yet for homeless young people, affordable of 25 who are ready to move on, but who are trapped in accommodation simply does not exist, due to the reduced hostels because they cannot find anywhere to rent on rate of housing benefit that they receive. the shared accommodation rate. In effect, therefore, they are left locked into emergency accommodation, Moreover, in order to access DHPs, young people unable to find a safe place to live and unable to move need to approach their council or MP for support in on. Moreover, in the process, they prevent those in applying, and many homeless young people at crisis urgent need from finding shelter at the emergency point may simply not have the know-how or capacity to accommodation. do that. Furthermore, the state already has the information needed to make a fair decision on providing extra Young people under the age of 25 make up fully support without forcing someone in that position to 44% of those living in supported accommodation. They apply for discretionary and temporary help—the end up trapped in hostels, because our welfare system is information is that being homeless and living in a hostel rife with age discrimination. If I am over the age of for three months is, in itself, qualification enough for 25 and previously spent three months in a hostel, I will needing more support, whatever age someone is. be given a higher local housing allowance to help me Centrepoint, which works daily with young people find a place to live, but if I am under 25 and in exactly aged 16 to 24 in that position, estimates that it would the same situation, I still receive the lowest rate. Young cost just £3.68 million a year for the Treasury to exempt people entering a homeless hostel at the age of 18, such young people from the shared accommodation therefore, will have to wait as long as seven years before rate, giving them the higher one-bedroom rate and a they benefit from the rate that would help them to move chance to move on. That does not even take account of forward. the savings that would accrue from providing stability—the Why have the Government turned their back on cost of emergency accommodation is high, as is the cost vulnerable young people who so clearly need support to to the state and the young person of the consequences find a home? Young people experiencing homelessness of homelessness. cannot rely on the bank of mum and dad and cannot I appreciate that Ministers accept the logic of providing move back into the family home to save up, yet they an exemption to the SAR to people in need, because receive the lowest minimum wage and the lowest benefit they are able to find such funding for over-25s who are rate. experiencing homelessness. All I am asking for today is In 2018, the charity Depaul UK looked at the shared that they will find it in their hearts and budgets to help rooms available in 40 local authority areas in England younger homeless people too. where official statistics showed that a total of 225 young My second specific ask of the Minister relates to that people were sleeping rough on a single night. Across group of young people who have left care. Care leavers those 40 areas, only 57 rooms were found to be available deserve somewhere safe to call home. Many have for young people at or below the shared accommodation experienced unspeakable trauma, and surely that is the rate. Nine of those 225 young people sleeping rough least we can provide. Again, it is shocking that the local were in Brighton and Hove, but the research found housing allowance received by care leavers drops on literally no rooms in our city that were available within their 22nd birthday, putting them at risk of eviction and the shared accommodation rate for young people claiming homelessness. When I say “drops”, I mean it literally benefits. plummets. In Brighton and Hove, there are about 300 care In Brighton and Hove, the shared accommodation leavers aged between 17 and 21. On a care leaver’s 22nd rate for homeless young people is just £360 per month. birthday, what does the state do? It takes away £330 a If we search on Rightmove for shared room rooms for month. In the Prime Minister’s area, a care leaver that amount, I promise that all we get coming up on the surviving in the private sector loses a whopping £437 a website are parking spaces or garages. That is shameful. month. What a birthday gift to vulnerable young people The average rent of a room in a shared house is £507 a who are on their own, having faced unimaginable trauma month. That is a shortfall of more than £141 a month, and difficulty. leaving homeless under-25s unable to move out of a The Government’srationale for creating such instability, hostel and find somewhere safe to live. In the Prime difficulty and risk for 22-year-old care leavers is not at Minister’s local authority, from April 2020 the monthly all clear. Perhaps the Minister will explain. The policy 61WH Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 62WH Young People Young People seems strongly at odds with previous Government Since my appointment as Minister, I have worked and statements. For example, in 2016, the Government rightly continue to work closely with a number of those charities accepted the moral obligation to provide care leavers and other organisations to help to inform my work and with the support they need, stating: that of my Department, to ensure that the Department “The government is passionate about improving the lives and for Work and Pensions does all we can to support those life chances of care leavers. Young people leaving care constitute who are at risk of homelessness and that we are getting one of the most vulnerable groups in our society, and both housing benefit right to provide the support that people government and wider society have a moral obligation to give need. As a Department we support the wider Government them the support they need as they make the transition to aims and ambitions to end rough sleeping and tackle adulthood and independent living.” wider homelessness. I could not agree more, and I urge the Minister simply to extend that understanding until a care leaver is 25. My role as the Minister for welfare delivery has enabled me to go to all parts of the country, and subject Homelessness charities estimate that the number of to reappointment I look forward to continuing to do so. care leavers aged 22 to 24 affected by the reduction in I have visited a number of charities and organisations housing support is relatively small. The cost of extending around our great country that support those who have their exemption from the low shared accommodation experience of homelessness and rough sleeping. That rate until the age of 25 would be in the region of has enabled me to get a better understanding of those £6 million. As with the previous ask for hostel leavers, it issues. I include among those organisations a number of would save the Government money overall by reducing arm’s length management organisations and housing homelessness, distress and all the personal and financial associations that have a role to play. costs associated with crisis management. The hon. Lady will no doubt recognise that this is not To try to demonstrate the genuine need for support an issue that the Department for Work and Pensions for care leavers until the age of 25, I would like to tell can tackle alone. I am working with my counterparts in the Minister about a case from my local area. A girl in several Government Departments as part of cross- both foster care and residential care was placed with Government efforts to tackle this issue. Sadly, these foster carers from the age of 14; as a result, she built a debates are always far too short; I have no doubt that solid relationship with the family she was finally placed the hon. Lady and I could discuss this and associated with. She has learning difficulties, so any changes to her issues at great length. We could probably spend most of environment or living circumstances are destabilising. the day talking about the issues she raised: rough sleeping To her great credit, she found a job and established a and the broad rental market area in Brighton, local good routine in the local area, and she maintained a housing allowance, Centrepoint’s analysis and young tenancy on a bedsit. She was able to cover the rent people under 25 with experience of homelessness, as between the LHA one-bed rate and her weekly wage. well, of course, as care leavers, not to mention the point Since turning 22, she is in receipt of the lower shared she makes about social housing. I would very much room rate of local housing allowance. That means she welcome her at the Department to chat through some of does not have enough to cover the cost of rent each those issues at greater length with officials, as appropriate. week from earnings and benefits. She is now at risk of homelessness. I will try to cover as many of the issues as I can in the It would cost just £3.7 million a year to give vulnerable time left. First, we have to address the elephant in the homeless young people the chance to move on, and just room, which is the root cause of this issue: in parts of £6 million to continue supporting care leavers with their our country, we have massive supply and demand issues. housing costs until they are 25. That support would The hon. Lady’s constituency is an example of that; my save the state money overall, because stable, supported own constituency is another. As a result, although there young people could fulfil their potential rather than are parts of the country where the ambition was to have suffer in chaos and danger. Less than £10 million to the local housing allowance rates set at the 30th percentile, make such a huge difference to young people’s lives is there are many parts of the country where the local not a lot to ask. Will the Minister urgently meet with housing allowance is sub-5%. That represents an issue. the homelessness charities and MPs to work on these The root cause of that—my officials will not like me for specific asks ahead of the Budget—the critical moment? saying it—is that successive Governments have failed to Will he use his influence with the Chancellor to provide build enough houses, in particular affordable housing that relatively small amount that would make a huge and homes for social rent. That is something we need to difference to young people in my constituency and right look at. across the country? Stephanie Peacock (Barnsley East) (Lab): I congratulate 4.13 pm the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work on securing this important debate. On affordable housing, and Pensions (Will Quince): It is a pleasure to serve does the Minister share my concern about the research under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone, and I thank by the charity Crisis, which showed that cuts to housing the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) benefit mean that in 94% of areas across the country, for securing this important debate. Since my election in only one in five private-rented properties are affordable 2015, I have been passionate about tackling homelessness. to young single people? Obviously, we need to do much Before my appointment as a Minister, I served as co-chair more to tackle that. of the all-party parliamentary group on ending homelessness, where I engaged and built relationships Will Quince: The hon. Lady is partly right; the solution with many brilliant charities, a number of which the is not just about local housing allowance. Wecan continue hon. Lady mentioned, to work with them to end to pump money into housing benefit, which unfortunately homelessness and rough sleeping. in many parts of the country lines the pockets of private 63WH Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 64WH Young People Young People [Will Quince] I work very closely with Centrepoint, which is a wonderful charity. I have been on several visits and I rented sector landlords. But if we are to tackle this in intend to do far more. Wehave already done a considerable the long term, it is about affordable housing and a piece of work in this area. I can touch on the Government’s mixture of tenure between ownership, affordable housing, action on homelessness and local housing allowance, which is up to 80% of market rent, and homes for social although I probably do not have enough time to go into rent, which is significantly lower. It is about addressing the detail I would like. There have been considerable the supply issue as well as the demand issue, to ensure amelioration measures, such as discretionary housing that we tackle the problem for the medium to long term. payments, which we are increasing by a further £40 million That is why the Department and I are working closely this financial year to help local authorities support with the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local people where local housing allowance is not sufficient. Government, not to mention the other Government Over the past three years we have also had targeted Departments involved. Between us, we hold the key—we affordability funding; as I understand it, in the last hold the housing benefit bill, but they have a lot of the financial year, that increased about 45% of shared levers to address the supply side. accommodation rates by 3%. Nevertheless, I would like us to go further, and I think the steps we have taken to Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab): I increase rates by CPI will make a difference. commend the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline The hon. Lady referred specifically to care leavers. Lucas) on securing this debate. The Minister will be We know that people leaving the care system can be well aware that only something like 6,480 social rent particularly at risk of homelessness. We have provided properties were built in 2018. Wehave a huge undersupply, £3.2 million per annum to 47 local authorities with the as the Minister highlights. The other day, Shelter told highest number of care leavers at risk of homelessness. me that people are finding themselves under so much That has led to a number of innovative ideas to support financial pressure that they cannot meet the rent because those leaving the care system into safe, secure and of the low payment being given to them. People are long-term housing. However, I understand the case put moving from a two-bedroom to a one-bedroom and are by Centrepoint, the hon. Lady and others about the doubling up in the properties. That is putting more rate. She suggested two items that would cost a little pressure on single occupancy and double occupancy. under £10 million. That is still a significant sum and would require Treasury approval. She may have got the Will Quince: There is no question that the Government impression that she is pushing against a half-open door. are committed to increasing the supply of social housing. I am very sympathetic to that view, including in relation Through the affordable homes programme to March to those who have experience of homelessness. She 2022, we will deliver 250,000 new homes on a wide asked me to commit to meeting charities and Members range of tenure. We will renew the affordable homes with specific interests in this area. I would of course be programme, building hundreds of thousands of new delighted to. Actually, I think a number of those meetings homes. are already in train, but I will of course continue to It is important to stress that, since 2010, we have do that. delivered more than 464,000 new affordable homes, On the shared accommodation rate, our approach is including 331,800 affordable homes for rent. As I said, I based broadly on the principle that young single people am working very closely with my counterparts at MHCLG in the private rented sector should have their housing on the interaction between housing supply and housing benefit limited to the rate appropriate for shared benefit. Until that supply is addressed, local housing accommodation, but the hon. Lady rightly made the allowance rates will continue to play a part. That is why point that there are exceptional circumstances and there we have increased LHA by 1.7%, in line with CPI. Of need to be exceptions to policy. We already have a course, the ambition is to go further, and I personally number of exceptions, as she pointed out, but where would like to see it go back up to the 30th percentile. there are opportunities for us to go further and there is That comes, as I think I have said in response to written a clear evidence base for doing so, of course we will parliamentary questions, to the tune of about £1 billion. look at that. It is not a cheap intervention, so we have to address the supply issue alongside it. An obvious example of other interventions is the The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion rightly raised Homelessness Reduction Act 2017, which has enabled the broad rental market area in Brighton. That is not an us to make great strides in the support that we can give easy issue to address. There are 192 broad rental market to young people in particular. Many of them would not areas and 960 local housing allowance rates, so looking have been eligible under the previous system of priority at them is a considerable piece of work. I am doing that need but now will be eligible on the basis of the duty to work, and it is important that we do so, but it cannot be refer. The Act is making a huge difference, and I have done in one financial year. Unfortunately, since there no doubt that the hon. Lady knows that from speaking are so many of these issues in all parts of the country, to her local authority, as I do to mine. We must ensure, there are unintended consequences. However we draw through the MHCLG, that it is suitably resourced, but the boundaries, there are winners and losers. I understand we know it is making a difference, including to young that there is an issue in Brighton at the moment. The people. Importantly, the Act also places a duty on same is true of Blackpool and, close to my constituency public bodies, including children’sservices, youth offending in Essex, of Jaywick, Frinton and Clacton. These issues institutions and youth offending teams, to ensure better do arise. I encourage the hon. Lady to write to me with partnership working. That is really important for ensuring the specifics—alternatively, I would be very happy to that young people get the wraparound support they visit—so we can look at them in more detail. need. 65WH Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Local Housing Allowance: Homeless 66WH Young People Young People The MHCLG is the lead on broader Government broadly on side. He pointed to supply, which is very action on homelessness, but we very much support its important—we need more affordable housing, particularly efforts. The Government are committed to tackling for rent—but we also need immediate action. As he homelessness and rough sleeping. As the hon. Lady will knows, discretionary payments are not a sustainable know, we committed in our manifesto to end rough solution. They are for moments of crisis; they are not sleeping by the end of this Parliament and to fully for an ongoing payment situation. Right now, there are enforce the Homelessness Reduction Act. not any mitigating circumstances for the particular There are a number of issues, including local housing groups that I and Centrepoint have identified, so I urge allowance rates, that I would love to cover in more him again to take up those cases. depth. As the hon. Lady rightly pointed out, we have an Will Quince: I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention. opportunity ahead of the fiscal event—the Budget—on As a Department, we set no timeframe or parameters 11 March to look at housing in the round. We are for how long discretionary housing payments are available. having conversations with the MHCLG and the Treasury We leave that up to local authorities. However, I very to see how we can look at supply and the way that much take her point, and I thank her for the constructive investment in supply—in particular supply of affordable way in which she has put the case for those two groups. homes and homes for social rent—would interact with There is a strong argument there, and I will have to take our housing benefit bill. It pains me that we spend it away and work it up with officials, including by around 30% of our housing benefit bill on the private having conversations with Centrepoint and others. rented sector. It pains me even more that, because of LHA rates and other demand and supply issues, a We are committed to providing a strong safety net for percentage of that—I do not have a figure, but there is those who need it. That is why we continue to spend research to be done there—is spent on housing that I do more than £95 billion a year on working-age benefits, not believe is of a standard that the taxpayer and the including around £23 billion to help people with their Government should fund or invest in. housing costs. Weare meeting our manifesto commitment to end the benefit freeze and the freeze on local housing In conclusion, I would be very happy indeed to work allowance rates. I hope the hon. Lady has got a sense of with the hon. Lady— my passion on this issue and my desire to go further. That is why, as I have said a couple of times, work is Caroline Lucas: Will the Minister give way? under way between my Department and the MHCLG. Where there are opportunities to bring in Members Will Quince: Of course. from across the House and charities—charities have some really good ideas and quite reasonable requests of Caroline Lucas: I really appreciate the Minister’sresponse, Government in this area, with strong cases—I am very and I would very much like to take him up on his offer happy to work with them. of meeting him and his officials. I know that he is Question put and agreed to. 67WH 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 68WH Review Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston Review The all-party group, which I co-chair, made many calls saying that the process simply was not right. The 4.28 pm Minister supported those calls, and we commissioned a review. Andrew Bailey, head of the Financial Conduct Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): I beg to Authority , and the future Governor of the Bank of move, England, engaged in constructive collaboration with us That this House has considered Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston and made an excellent choice of reviewer in Sir Ross review. Cranston, who has done a tremendous job. Most It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Hollobone. importantly, he got every stakeholder round the table I think this is the second time I have spoken under your before he properly commenced the review. He consulted chairmanship about banking matters. This story is at us on many occasions, and we had great confidence in least as shocking as the last one we discussed. his ability to assess properly whether the review was fair. The story starts back in 2007, when Nikki and Paul Sir Ross’s findings were shocking—that is, shocking Turner, who were then customers of HBOS, told the to anyone not familiar with the process. Anybody familiar bank of a huge fraud in its organisation that was with it, whether a victim or victims’ support group, affecting them and many other customers. The bank knew exactly what he would say. We should be very denied all knowledge of the fraud. It sought to suppress grateful to him. It is a long report, but its essence is that: the evidence that Nikki and Paul Turner had and to the Griggs review did not deliver fair or reasonable ensure they could not speak out by trying on 22 occasions offers of compensation; it was not open or transparent; to repossess their home. Without the Turners, I do not it had serious shortcomings; it took too adversarial an think we would be here today, but they found out, and approach to assessing consequential loss; and, crucially, their determination has brought these matters to this its design meant that it could never deliver fair and point. The fraud was finally proven in court in 2017, reasonable outcomes. Those were his findings. 10 years later—imagine those 10 years of denial. We are pleased that the chief executive of Lloyds, Despite the fraud happening within HBOS, which António Horta-Osório, has written to us and the victims, was part of Lloyds Banking Group by that point, we and he met us. He has apologised unreservedly for the were willing and happy for Lloyds to take on its own bank’s conduct in the review and committed himself customer review and compensation scheme for those personally to getting this right. It should not have been victims, many of whom had been denied any justice and a surprise to anyone—he had been warned on many had it denied to them that any fraud was going on occasions that the process was flawed. Nobody should whatsoever. Lloyds set up the Lloyds Bank customer be surprised about the result if we allow a business to review, also known as the Griggs review because it was mark its own homework—it shows a fatal misunderstanding headed by Professor Griggs, who was appointed by of how businesses operate. I speak as a businessperson Lloyds to undertake compensation payments to victims. who has been in business for 28 years and is still in The Turners were compensated, but they decided to business today. I do not think I should be allowed to help other people navigate the Griggs process. They regulate my business or regulate where I have customer formed an organisation called the SME Alliance, which complaints; independent oversight is critical. has been proactive in making sure that people get Milton Friedman, the leading economist, once said justice. Not only did they warn Lloyds about the initial that the social responsibility of business is fraud; they started to warn Lloyds about how unfair the Griggs review was and how partial the process was to “simply to increase its profit”. the interests of the bank. In fact, they went as far as Warren Buffett recently said that the Government have commissioning their own review of the review,undertaken to play their part in modifying the market system. We by Jonathan Laidlaw in 2018-19, which endorsed the cannot simply leave this stuff to business; we must Turners’ findings and said that the process was truly ensure independent oversight and fair regulation. Business unfair and partial to the interests of the bank is not afraid of regulation; it just wants stable, fair Throughout the process, others were warning Lloyds regulation, not over-regulation. that the Griggs review and the scheme was completely A bank found guilty in court of defrauding its own unfair. Following all those calls and the Laidlaw review, customers, which denied that fraud and even disgracefully the Minister kindly supported those calls and commissioned mistreated whistleblower Sally Masterton in her efforts a review, carried out by Sir Ross Cranston. to keep the fraud out of the public eye, is allowed to compensate its victims, through its own process. The Tonia Antoniazzi (Gower) (Lab): We have had many lessons we learn from the process are not just about how reviews and redress schemes in different forms over the to compensate victims fairly and give them justice for past eight years. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that to their mistreatment but about how the regulators have provide comfort to people, the methodology of those dealt with it. We undermine our system of free market reviews should be independently tested against the capitalism if we let these powerful and dominant capitalists benchmarks that Sir Ross set out in his report? go unchecked. Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Member is absolutely I will briefly list some of the representations that the right. The biggest learning we have is that the whole all-party group has made over the years. My predecessor process must be independent. It simply cannot be fair to as chair wrote in February 2017 to António Horta-Osório have any review carried out within the bank’s boundaries about Lloyds’s plan to take forward the review. He said that provides compensation for victims. It must be that there were unacceptable exclusion clauses, the process independent and independently verified. I very much would be poor when it came to the consequential loss appreciate her work and support on the all-party and it was critical that redress was transparent, balanced parliamentary group on fair business banking. and legally binding. That was three years ago. We 69WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 70WH Review Review recommended the use of an independent process through cannot be right, in terms of justice for victims or their the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators which would feeling that justice has been done. Justice being seen to have been much fairer. be done is a basic principle that, it seems, the banking We did not leave it there. Over the past three years, I sector does not have to adhere to. have had many meetings with the senior management When the APPG was initially talking about future team at Lloyds—I recently met the chief executive— redress, it proposed a financial services tribunal, similar including Lord Blackwell, the chair of Lloyds, as has to an employment tribunal, where there would be no the director of policy for the all-party group, Heather adverse costs, so a claim could be taken forward more Buchanan. There has been much correspondence between easily. That would help to reduce the power imbalance us. In July 2018, we wrote again to Lloyds and said that between banks and businesses. A comment that came the victims were still being treated with contempt. The back from one of those commissioning the review on reply from Lloyds—from Adrian White, the chief operating behalf of UK Finance, the banking representative officer—said: organisation, was that the courts were not the right “We strongly believe that the offers made are both fair and place for banking disputes to be settled. Well, they are reasonable.” the right place for the rest of us to settle disputes—that That demonstrates the institutional arrogance of Lloyds is what our system is built upon. and the wider sector, as people were constantly pointing We need impartial, independent processes. I will talk out that the review was not fair. Any protests about the about the right process for that moving forward, because process were simply ignored. For us, it is not that the there is an obvious new alternative approach we can bank did not know about it; it simply chose to ignore us take. and many others. The key is where we go now. Perhaps this is not the Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op): I pay first step, but it is incredibly important that the FCA tribute to the hon. Gentleman for the way in which he undertakes an investigation under the senior managers has championed justice for those wronged by Lloyds. regime on both the Griggs review and the people responsible He is right to describe this case as one of the worst for that review within Lloyds.Lloyds must takeresponsibility examples of corporate abuse that many of us in this for the review and other things connected to the whole House can remember. Would he be attracted by the saga, including the disgraceful treatment of Sally Masterton, consumer ombudsman model? In this case it was not the whistleblower, who was mistreated for five years. consumers who were primarily affected, but consumer She was discredited by Lloyds to the FCA, for which ombudsmen in other countries—crucially, those with she was finally compensated in 2018, yet nobody has class action powers—can bring actions against big been held to account for the mistreatment of a whistleblower businesses that are guilty of the type of behaviour that pointing out some of these very issues. the hon. Gentleman describes,on behalf of both consumers Another thing we will need to look at is the people and small businesses. Would that not be a powerful who are not part of Lloyds but are connected to the addition to the regulatory field and help to hold big review. The legal advisers Herbert Smith Freehills are banks to justice? clear that they misled the Financial Conduct Authority about Sally Masterton, the whistleblower. They advised Lloyds on the establishment of the Griggs review, on its Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Gentleman makes an operation and on some legal points incorrectly, according interesting point, although that is not a model I am to Sir Ross Cranston. It is unthinkable that Herbert familiar with. Class actions are definitely opportunities Smith Freehills should have any influence on the future that are not well exploited the UK because of our legal redress scheme. That must be an absolute minimum; it system. I would be keen to talk to him further about cannot happen as we go forward. They should also be that approach. the subject of an investigation by the Solicitors Regulation Within our system we have the Financial Ombudsman Authority. Service, which does not necessarily have the best reputation, The Cranston review offers us a crucial opportunity; although I know the hon. Gentleman is talking about it is a watershed moment. It is not just about Lloyds but something different. It is a problem that whoever is about the wider banking sector. overseeing cases has to be competent and have the right understanding, because there are complex cases that Kirsten Oswald (East Renfrewshire) (SNP): Is the take into account issues around complicated banking hon. Gentleman aware that a freedom of information products. We have to ensure that the calibre of arbitration request to the Financial Ombudsman Service showed or adjudication is at the right level—I will say more that, between 2015 and 2018, complaints about Clydesdale about that shortly. We certainly need reform. Moving Bank, now Virgin Money, were disproportionately high forward, we think we have a good solution, but we need in comparison with their larger competitors? There to continue to improve on that. were 404 complaints in total and, worryingly,the percentage This is not just about Lloyds. There are a number of of those upheld was only 13%. Does he agree that it is other redress schemes for banking malpractice and time for the chief executive officer of Virgin Money, as mistreatment that have already been conducted by relevant a self-professed challenger to the status quo, to step up banks. Banks were the principal arbiters of deciding and make sure that these legacy cases are dealt with? how much compensation people were allowed to have relating to the interest rate swaps schemes and interest Kevin Hollinrake: I absolutely agree with the hon. rate hedging products, many of which had a devastating Lady. This is not just about Lloyds. A number of effect on businesses. The debates that we have had independent reviews have taken place, but they have about the Royal Bank of Scotland, over the past months been undertaken by the relevant banks. That simply and years, have raised similar problems about the 71WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 72WH Review Review [Kevin Hollinrake] working with the BBRS for the past year. It will mean that we can look at historical cases and at cases going mistreatment of small businesses. There are problems forward, and at larger businesses too. It is absolutely the with their review process and with others, as other hon. right thing, and we believe that the method of adjudication Members have said. is good. I will describe cases that put that into perspective. Our concern is, of course, as I have discussed with the The first person to write to me about a business banking Minister on many occasions, that that approach excludes dispute was Jon Welsby from Filey, when I first became people who have been through other independent bank-led a Member of Parliament. He showed me a huge file of reviews, which we think is wrong. We think the banks evidence about his business, but the dispute came down should look at such cases again where there is material to quite a simple problem. He had been sold a swap by evidence that something has not been settled fairly, but Lloyds bank—they were sold by manydifferent banks—that with the BBRS as a fallback. We think that is fair, and had had a devastating effect on the interest rates he had that should go for all victims of all bank-led remediation to pay. The amount he had to pay rose from about schemes who feel there is still a case to answer. £5,000 a month to £17,000—perversely, as interest rates We also think there are other issues that need to be fell, as that was the way swaps worked. He was given dealt with within the Lloyds Bank Review, certainly on direct losses, but he was not assessed as being due any eligibility. The review had very tight restrictions on consequential losses by the bank-led review. He was eligibility: the victim had to have dealt directly with one able to gather together the resources to take his claim to of the two people convicted of the direct fraud, Lynden court. It was a £10 million claim, although I am not Scourfield or Mark Dobson. We think that is an unfair clear exactly how much he received, as he settled out of restriction. Lloyds has made ex gratia payments—I court. He was able to settle the claim, whereas most think £65,000 in total—that are only allocated to certain people cannot get the money together to take their people who have been through that scheme or are claim to court. He had had his claim assessed by the assessed as being appropriate to go through that scheme, bank and was not happy with it, but because he had the which, again, we think is unfair. Lloyds should look money to get to court, it was settled for a much higher again at that. figure. It cannot be right that the only people accessing We see a lot of people now putting their cases forward justice are those with the wherewithal to get to court. for the Business Banking Resolution Services. Our Given that imbalance of power, people would need constituents who have these kinds of problem can put millions of pounds to take a bank to court. It is simply their cases forward, and we urge them to do so, but unfair. when they do, while their cases are being assessed, we The constituent of my hon. Friend the Member for think the bank should declare a moratorium or a stay of Beckenham (Bob Stewart), Dean D’Eye, came to us proceedings on any cases going through that process. about the RBS Global Restructuring Group scheme. To conclude, we see this as a crucial opportunity, not He had a property development business and loans to only for Lloyds to get this right now, but for the wider the value of around 60%. He never missed a payment to business-banking relationship. We are very grateful to RBS. He was sold a swap, which damaged his business, the Minister for the steps he has taken, both in appointing but the key moment came when money from a property Sir Ross Cranston and on the Business Banking Resolution sale he had made, to add cash flow to his current Service. We very much thank Sir Ross Cranston for his account, was taken away by the bank and used to excellent work. We see this as a crucial opportunity to reduce debt. According to Mr D’Eye, that broke the restore confidence in the free market system, to ensure agreement and had a devastating impact on his business. that individual victims have access to justice and Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con): It did not just affect compensation and to improve the appetite for SMEs to Dean D’Eye but it deeply affected his father, who was borrow, start businesses and grow them, thereby giving almost bankrupted and lost his home. a timely boost to UK plc. Let us ensure that we do not waste the opportunity. Kevin Hollinrake: Absolutely, and we see that time and time again. It is not just about businesses or jobs— Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): The debate can although clearly businesses and jobs are lost—but about last until 5.30 pm. If there are anyBack-Bench contributions the effect on people’s lives. I understand that as a I can take those, but I need to call the Front Benches no business person myself. My business has been my life. If later than 5.7 pm. The guideline limits are five minutes somebody had taken my business away from me in for the SNP, five minutes for Her Majesty’s Opposition those circumstances, I do not know how I would have and 10 minutes for the Minister, and then Mr Hollinrake coped. has a few minutes to sum up the debate at the end. The latest intelligence I have received is that we are expecting The Minister may say that many cases are not proven Divisions at 5.30 pm, but that they might come earlier. or that the banks may write with various reasons why Members will know that if a Division comes during the claims are wrong. That is why we do not put the APPG debate, we have to adjourn for 15 minutes or half an forward as an arbiter of whether the customer or the hour, so Members might want to be mindful of speeding bank is right in such cases. We do not think the APPG, up their contributions to ensure that we finish the the victims or the banks should play that role; it must be debate before a Division occurs. somebody entirely independent. As I have said before, we recommended a tribunal approach to solving this imbalance of power. What my hon. Friend the Minister 4.53 pm has managed to bring about is something new, called Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): I apologise for not the Business Banking Resolution Service, which we being on time, Mr Hollobone; I had a short-notice think is a great step forward. We in the APPG have been meeting with the Under-Secretary of State for Northern 73WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 74WH Review Review Ireland, the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) It is, and it should be seen as such. The article goes on on Northern Ireland issues, and we had to go to meet to say: him. I talk very fast, Mr Hollobone, as you know, but in “If this approach continues to influence Lloyds’ engagement the next few minutes I am going to get more words to with mortgage prisoners, cases that come through the Business the minute than any other person ever got, if that is Banking Resolution Scheme (BBRS), PPI claimants and yet to be possible. I hope I do not talk so fast that Hansard uncovered conduct problems, its chances of achieving meaningful cannot follow it—I will certainly do my best. cultural improvements may increase. Barclays, RBS, Virgin Money and other UK banks have not On 18 December 2018, 13 months ago, we gathered made public any change in attitude towards legacy conduct issues, here in Westminster Hall for a debate on the same however.” subject of Lloyds HBOS, some nine years after the It is disappointing that they have not. matter was first raised in the House in June 2009 by Sir James Paice MP. My substantive support for a “Banks, via UK Finance, contested the eligibility criteria for proper and independent review of the Griggs HBOS the BBRS, which is aimed at putting SME mistreatment in the past.” bank-led remediation scheme is a matter of record in that debate. Less well-known is what has happened Regrettably, since, so let me put some of that on the record from my “Most banks have made few meaningful actions to help mortgage perspective today. prisoners or customers whose loans were sold to debt collectors and vulture funds.” I begin by drawing the House’s attention to a few paragraphs of an excellent article that I read, by Helen That includes Lloyds as one of the culprits. Cahill in The Mail on Sunday on 25 January. Helen “David Duffy, chief executive at Virgin Money Holdings, in wrote: contrast to Lloyds’ recent approach, has rebuffed the FCA’s Bailey’s specific requests to ‘deal with’ some of its most troublesome “Sources said Horta-Osorio, who has been at the helm of and longstanding SME customer disputes.” Britain’s biggest retail bank since 2011, is keen to salvage his reputation before departing as chief executive. Mr Duffy is noticeably where his Lloyds CEO counterpart was a few weeks ago, pre-Cranston, and in my view he He has also halted three legal battles with victims in an effort to repair relations between the bank and its small business customers. needs to move his position to remove the shackles strangling this bank. Victims have been fighting for fair compensation for more than a decade. Nikki Turner, director of victims’ group SME Alliance, The Minister will be well aware of the case of John said: ‘We have struggled with this for years. We hope this will Guidi, the CYBG, now Virgin Money, hunger striker, encourage other chief executives to be more hands-on. How do and his recent correspondence, now publicised on Twitter you know what’s going on in the bank, if you don’t know about it and elsewhere, detailing the implications of both his personally?’” case and many others. It is insightful to read the Reuters Then, in what in my view will prove to be a seminal article by Lindsey Rogerson on 24 January, headlined: article, for Reuters last Wednesday, under a section “Outgoing FCA chief advocates for bank victims inclusion in entitled: new resolution scheme”. “Chief executives at a conduct crossroads”, That is good news. Rachel Wolcott wrote: The article addressed Andrew Bailey’s public and “Bank chief executives face a choice in 2020. They could take private view on both Mr Guidi’s case—I have probably actions to resolve fairly disputes and claims stemming from past pronounced his name wrong there—and those of the misconduct. That then would set the tone for how such problems other victims of banks that are not yet participating in are solved in future and reinforce cultural transformation messaging.” the BBRS, such as Zurich Dunbar. I ask the Minister, in There are a lot of things that can be done. his concluding remarks, to respond by giving his view “Alternatively, they could continue approaches that resulted in and that of Government on the following observation unfair customer redress schemes, customer claims being wrongly by Mr Guidi: denied, and vulnerable customers hauled through the courts.” “Meanwhile, the Vulture funds appear to be untouchable by The article quotes Ruth Steinholtz as saying: the law yet they use their distorted version of law for their own “They can’t have it both ways.” benefit to destroy the honest and hardworking, tax paying SMEs and individual people of this country and leave them destitute as They think they can, but they cannot. Ruth Steinholtz a burden on the state while they themselves pay no taxes in the is further quoted as saying: UK, Ireland or anywhere else.” “They say they want to increase trust, but they can’t do that if I turn now to an instance that I witnessed, together they don’t take responsibility for their actions and admit they got with our voluntary adviser, Brian Little at Westminster it wrong. I do think there has to be some sympathy for the reason for Banking, who has assisted with auditing and they have difficulty admitting getting it wrong, which is they get whistleblowing since that December 2018 debate. I was slammed by the regulators every time they do”— approached by Lloyds Banking Group’s public affairs but if it is wrong, it is wrong and they should say that. director, Mr Benedict Brogan, who asked to speak with The article continues: us about the content of various parts of my speech, “The Cranston Review, which saw Lloyds Banking Group’s which Brian and I were very willing to do. Our first handling of HBOS Reading victims criticised, may have been a meeting took place immediately on the resumption of catalyst for that very change in approach required to take Lloyds’ Parliament after Christmas 2018. cultural transformation work forward. Lloyds has invested in A number of matters were discussed, including— efforts to improve culture, making key hires and revamping its specifically relevant to the debate—the importance of a purpose, values and behaviour statement. Recent decisions by Antonio Horta-Osorio, chief executive to increase HBOS Reading meaningful and competent review of the Griggs scheme, fraud victims’ compensation, pre-empting further unflattering together with the crucial involvement of victims’ investigation results expected in the Dobbs Review, was deemed representatives in the recently announced dispute resolution as a step in the right direction.” scheme, now called the Business Banking Resolution 75WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 76WH Review Review [Jim Shannon] time I, as a new MP, and with my parliamentary aide, assisted in keeping his whistleblowing case alive during Service. From our experience in Northern Ireland, we his diagnosis and recovery. believe that all the people cannot really move on until During that time, we met the now-Lord Andrew the victims’ aspects are properly considered and a closure Tyrie, in his role as Chairman of the Treasury Committee, and reconciliation process undertaken, as the hon. Member in relation to independent reports and assessors. By for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) mentioned; I coincidence, António was the subject of stories on the only caught the tail end of his speech, but I have spoken front page of The Daily Telegraph on 4 May 2011. to him about this. He and I both requested this debate, While only just in the CEO role, António had taken the and I am pleased that we got it. brave step away from the UK Finance position on PPI As a result, over the next couple of months, Mr Brogan and stated that Lloyds must address the compensation engaged with other banks, and centrally Mr Horta-Osório issue. Back then, that was perhaps £5 billion to £10 billion suggested that Nikki Turner of the SME Alliance be across the banks; it is now more than £50 billion, but it invited to join the independent steering group, or ISG. was the right thing to do. Brian’s story was about Bearing in mind that Paul and Nikki Turner had been cover-ups in reports; the court eventually found that he the subject of 22 applications for eviction by Lloyds, had made 12 protected disclosures. and that the Lloyds CEO was subjected to calls for his On Saturday, I read an article in The Times in which resignation in Parliament in that December debate, this Katherine Griffiths wrote that António was now the was an enormous ask, and impossible in many people’s longest-serving CEO in the FTSE 100, and that the eyes; in effect, a few of us were thought of as mad. We search for his successor is imminent. Whether accurate understand that, when António was approached on the or not, I ask through this House that Mr Horta-Osório subject, after several seconds of reflection and following continues what a number of us have witnessed in the his interview by CNBC in Davos in January 2019, he last few months: personal involvement and oversight of looked up and said words to the effect that “it was the the Cranston compensation review and active support only way forward”, and so it is. for the BBRS, and perhaps even the involvement in a Shortly afterwards, on 12 March 2019, Nikki and the closure and reconciliation process at Lloyds, which we SME Alliance released to the press that they had been would be more than happy to discuss with him prior to invited and were joining the ISG of the DRS. That any departure or retirement. press release also referenced Mr Ian Lightbody from the I am conscious of the time, so I will scoot forward to CYBG Remediation Support Group. Unfortunately, near the end of my speech. In relation to third-party the DRS chairman, Mr Lewis Shand Smith, did not debt, can I ask that the Minister takes similar action follow Ian’s involvement through, despite another small immediately? Most of this will not be about individual business representative board member from Make UK cases, but I am concerned that the BBRS will not be being unable to attend. That was, and remains, a huge ready in time to hear the case of Nigel Henderson, as he disappointment to Financial Conduct Authority CEO is terminally ill. While the Minister consistently states Andrew Bailey, the SME Alliance and the all-party that he is unable to address individual cases, which I parliamentary group on fair business banking. understand, I should think that he would wish to publicly Despite the time pressures across many fronts on endorse the emergency cases policy of the BBRS that Andrew Bailey, who is soon to be Governor of the James Hurley reflected in his recent article in The Bank of England, we witnessed his personally taking Times, in which he wrote: charge of the interviews for the chair of that review “Bosses of the service have been asked to prioritise cases where with an unwavering commitment to the values and business owners are terminally ill and where there are imminent intent of that process, which we welcomed. After a repossession or bankruptcy issues.” couple of challenges in securing other candidates, Sir Ross It is morally right to do that, so why should we not? Cranston was selected. He has proven to be exactly An open letter to the Prime Minister last Wednesday what was required—independent, evidence-led, competent, from the Banking Victims for a Future groups stated: fair and robust. I put on the record our thanks and “The objective is to have Banks put things right, redress gratitude to both Andrew Bailey and Sir Ross Cranston customers, where they should be redressed, and continue to for their work on this in 2019. I must also add thanks to reinforce our work that Banks really need to earn people’s trust. the Lloyds CEO, Mr António Horta-Osório, who devoted Without this redress through a credible Business Banking Resolution Service (BBRS) followed by an appropriate closure and reconciliation some of his time to overseeing not only the HBOS process, within each bank, for the last 20 years we will not help aspect of this but the treatment of other victims, such as this nation and its people, through many small businesses, PROSPER victims of Lloyds business support unit. I wrote to in a post-Brexit United Kingdom.” António to thank him personally on Monday 20 January. Everybody will want that, whether they are in favour of Yes, Rachel Wolcott is right: bank chief executives Brexit or not. are at a conduct crossroads in 2020. How true that is. I will conclude with this comment from UK Mortgage This is the year that their actions, including active Prisoners: support for the BBRS, will communicate to their staff, “We do not want to be left behind within our Prime Minister’s the victims and the public at large whether cultures are hope for our nation. We didn’t deserve this and should not really changing. continue to suffer. We insist that our ‘People’s Government’ My final point relates to a victims’ conference I provide a solution and reflect it in the chancellor’s budget speech attended and spoke at on 17 September last year in on 11th March 2020, to the nation”. London, where I heard Brian Little tell a story to I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response victims that got everyone’s attention. It is on YouTube; to my two key points and to whether he endorses most things seem to be nowadays. Back in 2011, Brian these aspirations of the Prime Minister. I thank you, was a constituent of mine, and he still is. He had a Mr Hollobone, and hon. Members for enduring my mental breakdown for some 17 months, during which speaking at 60 words to the second, or thereabouts. 77WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 78WH Review Review 5.6 pm “this part of the Customer Review, both in structure and in implementation, was neither fair nor reasonable… Other Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP): It is a inconsistencies also resulted in unfairness… The general failure pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. to communicate in a sufficiently clear and transparent way caused I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton confusion”. (Kevin Hollinrake) for his diligence and for his role in The bank did not make a single redress payment for the all-party parliamentary group on fair business banking, direct and consequential losses to any business individual and for bringing yet another debate. I also pay tribute affected by the scandal. This could cover such damage to Heather Buchanan for her diligent work behind the as loss of opportunity, loss of profits, reputational scenes. damage, and claims for the impact of the scandal on a If this process has taught us anything, it is that we customer’s personal life. Given the time period over need urgently to look at reforming the banking system which this took place, it is clear this could have had a into an ethical model that works for customers, whether huge impact on the lives of the victims of this scandal. they are private individuals or businesses, because this It is unfortunate that banks cannot always be relied scandal has evaded every safeguard that ought to protect on to act in the best interest of their customers without customers. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim adequate enforcement of the rules. We cannot allow Shannon) said in hope, there should now be a positive them to mark their own homework. I urge the Minister influence on the behaviour and attitude in banks, but an to investigate the possibility of creating a permanent awful lot still needs to change. As he also mentioned, commercial financial dispute resolution platform, which this is much bigger than only Lloyds and HBOS, and we would allow a streamlined process for consumers to need to look more widely at the issue. hold banks to account and go some way towards alleviating Customers were defrauded of millions of pounds, the suffering of victims of mis-selling. and there was nothing short of a corporate strategy Although there is no doubt that some individuals within Lloyds to cover that up. There is evidence that went to great efforts to bring justice to the victims the bank’s own compliance officers were involved in the of this scandal, there is still no straightforward cover-up. The scandal was not uncovered by a regulator recommendation for redress for customers, for them to but by whistleblowers such as Sally Masterton, who was achieve the fairness and justice they deserve. We have treated appallingly by Lloyds—as the hon. Member for seen people lose their businesses and livelihoods before Thirsk and Malton laid out—and put on enforced leave any justice was served. People such as those mentioned for her part in bringing the issue to light. She was even by the hon. Member for Strangford, who have suffered prevented from working with the police to bring about through ill health or who have aged in the intervening an end to the scandal. If we cannot rely on whistleblowers years, need to see that soon. For many people, those to be supported through this process, we have a serious opportunities may be lost forever. The Treasury must problem. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the Turners, act to ensure that a scandal of this magnitude cannot and we should pay tribute to them for their 10-year happen again. The legacy of this saga must be change battle through this as well. It should not take 10 years across the board. for people to get a reasonable response and to get justice when they have been wronged. My hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Kirsten Oswald) mentioned Clydesdale and Virgin Money. The independent Griggs review was supposed to deliver We know other issues are brewing out there. I ask the compensation to the victims, but this too fell short of Minister to take those into account. Again, I thank expectations. The role of the independent reviewer was Sir Ross Cranston for his report, and the significant to oversee cases to ensure that they were fair. However, pressure for change, which leaves it to us and the UK customers criticised the process, owing to the Government to act. unaccountability of the reviewer, who would often fail to disclose what information had been provided to them 5.11 pm from the bank. Some described it as corrupt, and many have reported it as being a thoroughly awful experience. Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op): Cranston himself described the banks as confrontational I am grateful, Mr Hollobone, for giving me the chance and, at times, forceful, which is completely inappropriate, to respond to this debate. I thank the hon. Member for regardless of the situation. Customers had no way of Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) for securing this knowing what was fair or of seeing the working behind debate and the all-party parliamentary group on fair it. As the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton mentioned, business banking for all its efforts to secure justice for there is an inherent power imbalance within this, with victims of banking fraud and misconduct. people having to go to court and pursue this over many The hon. Gentleman has made clear the significance years, which many could not afford to do. of the Cranston review in reconsidering the process by I know that Members across the House will be grateful which banks compensate business customers where there for Sir Ross Cranston’s diligent work in his review of has been historical misconduct. I add my voice to his. this fiasco, and we thank him for that. Particularly Strangely, this is now a positive story: we finally have welcome is his recommendation that customers should the review we all wanted, although the journey to get be released from egregious settlement agreements, which here has been fairly tortuous. many customers agreed to as they were offered on a Everyone here has been involved in these issues for take-it-or-leave-it basis by the bank; customers often some time. In my time as the shadow City Minister I felt that they had no other choice. have had to become familiar with and speak about an Sir Ross Cranston also recommends that the bank appalling litany of complaints about how business must arrange for the reassessment of direct and customers have been treated, not multinational businesses, consequential losses by an independent body. In his but the small businesses that we would all recognise as report, he says that the backbone of our constituencies and this country. 79WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 80WH Review Review [Jonathan Reynolds] determined that one of the biggest drivers of mistreatment of businesses and consumers was the incentives paid to The stories have been of livelihoods and relationships people at the sharp end to sell those products. The hon. destroyed, and of entrepreneurs and companies losing Gentleman is absolutely right. A public inquiry might family businesses they have spent years building. well identify where this is going so badly wrong. We are here to discuss Lloyds. The HBOS Reading issues were clearly an issue of criminal liability in that Jonathan Reynolds: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman bank. In the wider sector we have discussed a whole for his intervention. We must look at the issue that he range of unacceptable conduct: the mis-selling of interest raises. In some ways, we have already addressed some of rates and hedging products, the mistreatment of companies the things that the Australians had not yet got round to, in distress by pushing them into restructuring, and the as the scope was different, but that must be part of the unscrupulous sales of loan books to vulture funds. That conversation, because we can go back, decade after is why the question of how redress happens has become decade, and find historical problems in the sector. Clearly, so important. something is happening, whether it involves the incentives for staff or the structure of the sector, that we might Research shows that a frighteningly small number of want to change. small businesses in this country believe that their bank will do the right thing by them. Given the reports I mentioned the business banking resolution scheme. detailing the historical conduct we have discussed, we Historically, I have always supported an independent cannot blame them. We must all improve on that. tribunal system and I still believe that that proposal has Whether we are politicians, banks or businesses, this merit, but perhaps we need to revisit regularly the lack of confidence is not in our interest. We need to be BBRS’s work to ensure that it is getting the results that able to tell our constituents that there is a level playing it requires in the timeframe. field when they find themselves in conflict with their My final point is on whistleblowers. Sally Masterton bank, and that there is a path to fairness, justice and was mentioned. She was treated disgracefully. Other proper redress. countries have much stronger protection for whistleblowers. Too often, in recent years, the response from banks to I think we could look at that issue. If I were, as I have us has been, “Systems are in place and we believe they always wanted to be, in the Minister’s place, responding are fair. All the historical issues have been sufficiently to the debate, I would want us to take that forward, to dealt with.” This report has shown unequivocally that ensure that we really had an appropriate system that not to be the case, vindicating those of us who have addressed all the needs. campaigned in this area for years, particularly the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton. 5.17 pm It is not acceptable for industry to equivocate on this The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): any longer and, to use the hon. Gentleman’s phrase, to It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, mark its own homework. Key problems identified in the Mr Hollobone. I, too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Cranston review include the lack of independence in Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). assessing complaints and the benchmark for compensation Obviously,in this role, I have shadow Ministers shadowing being so high that no customer could hope to meet it. It my every move, but I also have my hon. Friend, who has is important that we, as parliamentarians, learn the spoken up very effectively on these issues over the past lessons from these observations and embed those principles 25 months. We have had a constructive dialogue on in any new schemes. I look forward to the Minister’s many matters, and I look forward to addressing the response to the review. points he and others have made in my response. There are other avenues we must continue to consider, It has been just over a year since I announced that to get to the root of this problem. I believe we should Lloyds would commission a review into the Griggs consider a full public inquiry into business banking compensation scheme, which is another stepping stone scandals. This review is about the shortcomings of one in Lloyds’ journey to right the wrongs of the past and bank compensation scheme, but it emphasises the rebuild trust with their business customers. From the importance of investigating all areas of misconduct, outset, I was clear that if the findings of the review were not just to ensure that victims get fair compensation—that to hold up to scrutiny, the person overseeing it must be is the minimum—but to identify systemic problems at truly independent. I was therefore delighted by the the root of these scandals, to prevent them happening appointment of Sir Ross Cranston, a former Labour again. That could be challenging to us as parliamentarians. Member of Parliament who was Solicitor General between I always worry that the model of banking in this 1998 and 2001 and is a professor of law at the London country, whether for customers or small businesses, School of Economics, a Queen’s counsel, and a retired effectively relies on upselling products, so we do not High Court judge. I met him on two occasions to check really pay for the cost of our banking services, and on progress, between May and when purdah commenced. therefore we have business models where products must That was not to influence him regarding the particular be sold on to banking customers. Perhaps we need to conduct, but to encourage him to look at this issue as look at that. We must continue to work towards the thoroughly as possible. success of the business banking resolution scheme, to Sir Ross found that the Griggs compensation scheme assess how successful it is in addressing these problems. had serious shortcomings, as has been expressed fully in this debate, and that it did not achieve the stated purpose Kevin Hollinrake: The hon. Gentleman makes a good of delivering fair and reasonable compensation offers. point about products and services being sold to consumers Assessments of direct and consequential loss were too and businesses. The royal commission in Australia adversarial and legalistic, which was unfair and 81WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 82WH Review Review unreasonable for the customers it was designed to support. operationally independent of Government and it is for Sir Ross also found several other inconsistencies, along the FCA to consider whether there is sufficient evidence with a general lack of clarity underpinning the scheme, for such an investigation. while the bank’s failure to communicate with customers I know that we have spoken previously about Dame in a transparent manner caused further unnecessary Linda Dobbs’s investigation, which has been ongoing confusion. for a considerable amount of time. That really needs to Sir Ross found that some elements of the compensation come to a conclusion; we need to see the results of that scheme were good. For example, Lloyds provided generous investigation. However, I cannot say more than that, legal assistance and wrote off some customer debts, as because it is a matter for the FCA to consider. Now I well as paying substantial distress and inconvenience am very happy to give way to my hon. Friend the redress. Nevertheless, the overriding conclusions were Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). hugely disappointing, and Sir Ross has made it clear that Lloyds has more work to do to achieve the stated Bob Stewart: I thank the Minister for giving way; he aims of its original compensation scheme. is an honourable and decent man. However, what shocks me most about all of this is that some banks are not The most substantial of Sir Ross’s recommendations acting decently and honourably. That really worries me; is that customer claims for direct and consequential loss they should do that naturally. They are a bastion of our must be reassessed, and Lloyds is working with customers society, just as business is. and relevant parties to agree the details of this process. I know that representatives of Lloyds have been mentioned John Glen: My hon. Friend makes a powerful point, in this debate, and I have been given assurances that which goes to the core of this matter. The Cranston they are eager to get on with things. That could be review points to the fact that we now have a higher bar through the new Business Banking Resolution Service, of expectations in terms of how these redress schemes which has been referred to in today’s debate, or through should be operated in a transparent way. He has spoken an equivalent scheme that is committed to achieving the in this debate and previously about the distress that has same rigorous outcomes. Either way, it is pretty clear to been caused to his constituents, and many other Members me that these cases must be considered by an independent have also made points during this debate. body in a transparent manner. The wider banking industry has a responsibility to There has been work on this issue by the all-party reflect on the review’s findings and act accordingly, so I parliamentary group on fair business, with support welcome the banking industry’s commitment to creating from Heather Buchanan, who was mentioned earlier, a new scheme to address unresolved historic complaints and the SME Alliance. I also know that Sir Ross Cranston from small and medium-sized enterprises that have not himself is engaged in this process, which must continue, been through a formal independent process, and to and must be thorough and rigorous. address future complaints made by slightly larger SMEs that are just outside the remit of the Financial Ombudsman Sir Ross has also recommended that Lloyds make Service. payments to cover the debts of customers who repaid or refinanced loans, as well as releasing customers from Jim Shannon: Will the Minister give way? certain aspects of their settlement agreements. It is vital that Lloyds now implements the recommendations as John Glen: I will in a moment. quickly as possible and continues to support customers The aforementioned Business Banking Resolution as they navigate this process. I will follow progress Service opened to expressions of interest last November, closely and I expect to be regularly updated; I have ahead of its full launch later this year. Meanwhile, the made that clear. expansion of the FOS last April means that over 99% of I turn now to some of the points made by hon. all SMEs now have access to fair, free and fast dispute Members throughout the debate this afternoon. The resolution. hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi), who is no The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) longer in her place, asked whether all reviews should be asked me to give way; I am happy to do so, but I want to tested against Sir Ross’s methodology. I will just say refer to the points that he made. He referred to the this: I think that all banks have a responsibility to eligibility of the BBRS. It is not for me to determine reflect on the findings of the Cranston review and the eligibility of the BBRS, but his points about the consider whether their own redress schemes achieved prioritisation of cases will have been heard very clearly fair and reasonable outcomes for customers. Obviously, by those who have set up that service, and I urge the people have different interpretations, but the Cranston BBRS to reflect on his contribution to this debate. review is a wake-up call to banks to examine whether The BBRS and the expansion of the FOS build on the appropriate transparent processes have been followed. several initiatives that the Government have introduced, That should happen now. including the senior managers certification regime, which will hold key individuals at banks to account for the Bob Stewart: Will the Minister give way? decisions that they make, including decisions that could impact on their SME customers. The industry has also made changes.For example,all major lenders are signatories John Glen: I will just make my next point, then I will of the standards of lending practice, ensuring that give way to my hon. Friend. banks treat their customers in a fair and reasonable way. My hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton I hope that these steps, together with the work carried asked about the appropriateness of the Financial Conduct out this year to address historic SME disputes, will Authority carrying out a review under the senior managers bring unresolved disputes to a close and prevent the and certification regime. As he will know, the FCA is same circumstances from occurring again. 83WH Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston 84WH Review Review [John Glen] industry benchmark should be set on how to do things and how not to do them, and on what “good” looks I will conclude by saying that over the past year like. The Minister is absolutely right that all banks Sir Ross has taken considerable time to discuss sensitive should look back again at their processes and reviews, and often distressing matters with customers; he has and make sure they have got things right. had 49 meetings with 62 customers, alongside his adopting The other thing we need to learn from this matter is a detailed and forensic approach to the cases he has that when these processes—these redress schemes—are reviewed, so I thank him for his efforts. set up, we have to put the victims at the heart of them; I welcome the commitment of Lloyds to implementing we have got to get the stakeholders at the heart of them. the recommendations of the Cranston review, and I will Lloyds did not do that and nor did Royal Bank of follow progress closely. I note the points made by the Scotland. Sir Ross, more than anybody else, has done hon. Member for Glasgow Central (Alison Thewliss) that, which must be the lesson that we learn. and others, and I will reflect on them carefully. I will conclude by saying that Churchill once said of The establishment of the Business Banking Resolution the Americans that they always do the right thing but Service provides a further means of redress, and I look only after they have tried all the alternatives. That is forward to seeing it bring closure to many long-running what we must consider when we try to hold businesses disputes. I am confident that we can continue to build to account; we must assume that they are not going to on the good work that industry, small business do the right thing. They are many very decent people in representatives, regulators and Government have begun the banking sector and in business more widely, but we to rebuild trust, so that small businesses can access the simply cannot trust that people will do the right thing. finance they need to prosper and grow. People do what is inspected and not what is expected, so we must absolutely make sure that we do our bit. I Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I call Kevin know the Treasury will do its bit to try and ensure that Hollinrake to sum up the debate. we get this matter right, but the FCA, the BBRS and all those different stakeholders need to ensure this time that we get things right. 5.27 pm Question put and agreed to. Kevin Hollinrake: I am grateful to you, Mr Hollobone, Resolved, for calling me again, and to the Minister for his comments. That this House has considered Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston Sir Ross Cranston has left a tremendous legacy with review. his report, and I am very pleased to hear that the Minister thinks similarly. This matter is not just about 5.28 pm this individual review process—the Griggs review. An Sitting adjourned. 5WS Written Statements 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Written Statements 6WS

a very personal matter—whilst some parents may want Written Statements to take time off work immediately, others may prefer to take time off work on the first anniversary of their Tuesday 4 February 2020 child’s death or to enable them to attend the funeral or inquest. The new entitlement will be known as Jack’s law in BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL memory of Jack Herd whose mother Lucy has campaigned STRATEGY tirelessly on this important issue. Subject to parliamentary approval, the new entitlement will apply to parents who lose a child on or after 6 April Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay 2020. [HCWS90] The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Andrea Leadsom): The Government are committed to supporting working families to balance CABINET OFFICE work with their caring responsibilities. We have laid regulations in Parliament which, subject to parliamentary approval, will implement our commitment to give employed State of the Estate: 2018-19 parents a statutory minimum right to time off work in the devastating circumstances where their child dies or they suffer a stillbirth. The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Jeremy Parental bereavement leave and pay are the first of a Quin): I have today laid before Parliament, pursuant to raft of new employment reforms which will make the section 86 of the Climate Change Act 2008, the “State UK the best place in the world to work and to start and of the Estate in 2018-19”. This report describes the grow a business. As announced in the Queen’s Speech, efficiency and sustainability of the Government’s civil the Employment Bill will introduce further measures to estate and records the progress that the Government benefit employees and their employers, including carer’s have made since the previous year. The report is published leave and neonatal leave and pay. on an annual basis. The Parental Bereavement Leave Regulations 2020; [HCWS91] the Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay (General) Regulations 2020; and the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 (Commencement) Regulations 2020 TREASURY (collectively referred to as “the Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay Regulations”) were laid in Parliament on 23 January 2020. Taken together, they implement a Bilateral Loan to Ireland statutory right to a minimum of two weeks’ leave for all employed parents whose child under the age of 18 dies or who suffer a stillbirth from 24 weeks of pregnancy. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): I would like to update Parliament on the loan to Ireland. Employment law is a devolved matter in the case of Northern Ireland so the new entitlement to parental In December 2010, the UK agreed to provide a bereavement leave and pay will only apply to parents in bilateral loan of £3.2 billion as part of a ¤67.5 billion Great Britain (GB). There are around 7,500 child deaths international assistance package for Ireland. The loan a year in GB, including around 3,000 stillbirths. The was disbursed in eight tranches, and the final tranche Government estimate that this new entitlement will help was drawn down on 26 September 2013. Ireland has to support over 10,000 GB parents a year. made interest payments on the loan every six months since the first disbursement. The entitlement to parental bereavement leave will be a “day one” right which means that employed parents On 3 February, in line with the agreed repayment will be entitled to time off work to grieve irrespective of schedule, HM Treasury received a total payment of how long they have worked for their employer. Parents £404,714,183.56fromIreland.Thiscomprisestherepayment who have worked for their employer for six months or of £403,370,000 in principal and £1,344,183.56 in accrued more at the time of their child’s death will also be able interest. to claim statutory parental bereavement pay. As required under the Loans to Ireland Act 2010, Employed parents will be able to take their leave and HM Treasury laid a statutory report to Parliament on pay as either a single block of two weeks, or as two 3 October 2019 covering the period from 1 April to separate blocks of one week each. 30 September 2019. The report set out details of future The right to parental bereavement leave and pay payments up to the final repayment on 26 March 2021. makes GB one of a very small number of countries The Government continue to expect the loan to be worldwide to recognise the impact that the death of a repaid in full and on time. child has on parents and to offer such support to https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/ parents. We are the first to offer a full two weeks of bilateral-loan-to-ireland leave and pay and this is the most generous offer on The next statutory report will cover the period from parental bereavement leave and pay in the world. 1 October 2019 to 31 March 2020. HM Treasury will Both the leave and pay can be taken at any time in the report fully on all repayments received during this period first 56 weeks after the child’s death. The ability to take in the report. time off work over a long period recognises that grief is [HCWS89] 7WS Written Statements 4 FEBRUARY 2020 Written Statements 8WS

Counter-Terrorism Asset Freezing Regime practices. It also tells the stories of patients who came forward to provide evidence to the inquiry, which bears testament to their courage. As such it makes for difficult The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen): reading and it is with deep regret that we have to Under the Terrorist Asset-Freezing etc. Act 2010 (TAFA acknowledge the failure of the NHS and the independent 2010), the Treasury is required to prepare a quarterly sector to protect patients from Paterson’s malpractice. report regarding its exercise of the powers conferred on The public should be able to trust that a health it by Part 1 of TAFA 2010. This written statement professional will never again be allowed to place personal satisfies that requirement for the period 1 July 2019 to gain or advancement over the best interests of his or her 30 September 2019. patients whether care is funded by the NHS or privately. This report also covers the UK’s implementation of It is therefore essential that the whole of the health the UN’s ISIL (Da’esh) and al-Qaida asset freezing sector responds quickly and effectively to the lessons of regime (ISIL-AQ), and the operation of the EU’s asset this inquiry. The Government will give a thorough and freezing regime under EU Regulation (EC) 2580/2001 detailed consideration of their findings over the coming concerning external terrorist threats to the EU (also weeks. referred to as the CP 931 regime). We expect now for all the relevant agencies and Under the ISIL-AQ asset freezing regime, the UN organisations both nationally and locally, and across has responsibility for designations and the Treasury, the whole healthcare sector to give this report urgent through the Office of Financial Sanctions Implementation and thorough attention. (OFSI), has responsibility for licensing and compliance Once that work is done, the relevant agencies will with the regime in the UK under the ISIL (Da’esh) and decide what steps to take next. al-Qaida (Asset- Freezing) Regulations 2011. Copies of the report will be laid before the House Under EU Regulation 2580/2001, the EU has and will be available from the Vote Office and at: responsibility for designations and OFSI has responsibility https://www.gov.uk. for licensing and compliance with the regime in the UK An oral statement will be delivered to the House under Part 1 of TAFA 2010. today. EU Regulation (2016/1686) was implemented on [HCWS87] 22 September 2016. This permits the EU to make autonomous al-Qaida and ISIL (Da’esh) listings. It can also be viewed online at: http://www.parliament. uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers- SCOTLAND statements/written-statement/Commons/2020-02-04/ HCWS88/. Contingencies Fund Advance Tables set out the key asset-freezing activity in the UK during the quarter. Counter-terrorist asset freezing regime Q3 2019 (TAFA The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr Alister Jack):I Q3 2019 Table.pdf). hereby give notice of the Scotland Office and Office of the Advocate General’s intention to seek a repayable [HCWS88] cash advance from the Contingencies Fund of £1,900,000. The Department requires an advance to meet its cash requirements pending parliamentary approval of the HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE supplementary estimate 2019-20. The Department is operating within the budget agreed Paterson Inquiry in the main estimate. However, it will be seeking an increase in net cash requirement in the supplementary estimate. Accessing the Contingencies Fund will allow The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care the Department to cover existing expenditure consistent (Matt Hancock): Today the report of the independent with existing parliamentary estimates and does not inquiry into the issues raised by the former breast represent additional spending. surgeon Ian Paterson has been published. The advance will be repaid immediately following This report follows two years of work by the inquiry, approval of the supplementary estimate. led by Bishop Graham James. The Bishop has adopted Parliamentary approval for additional cash of £1,900,000 a strong commitment to a “patients and families first” will be sought in a supplementary estimate for the approach to public disclosure, which means that the Scotland Office and Office of the Advocate General. process of public disclosure began earlier this morning Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at with the patients and families themselves. £1,900,000 will be met by repayable cash advances from The report contains an analysis of the circumstances the Contingencies Fund. surrounding Ian Paterson’s malpractice that has affected [HCWS92] so many patients and considers other past and current 3MC Ministerial Corrections4 FEBRUARY 2020 Ministerial Corrections 4MC

disadvantaged students. The FE sector, the Education Ministerial Corrections Committee and the Labour party speak with one voice in supporting the Raise the Rate campaign to increase Tuesday 4 February 2020 per-pupil funding to £4,760. Despite warm words from the Secretary of State,the funding needed has not appeared. He talks about it being a crucial sector, so when will he EDUCATION make good on his promise to work hand in glove with the FE sector by both restoring the position of FE and Teacher Recruitment and Retention Skills Minister and raising the rate to £4,760? The following is an extract from Questions to the Secretary of State for Education on 20 January 2020. Gavin Williamson: I welcome the hon. Lady to her Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Those who position and wish her the very best in her new role, serve in Her Majesty’s armed forces represent the very although I thought she was a little ungenerous in her best of British. What is being done to turn troops into comments. Just in the past six months, we have delivered teachers when veterans leave the armed forces? an extra £400 million for 16-to-19 education; committed an extra £1.8 billion to FE colleges’ funding; and created Nick Gibb: My hon. Friend raises a good point. a national skills fund to be delivered over three years, Veterans make attractive members of staff in our schools, worth more than £3 billion. In my judgment, that is a they inspire young people and help to improve behaviour. lot of money and a real investment in our college sector. Our Troops to Teachers scheme was slow to begin with, We are giving them the opportunity to achieve so very but it is now proving successful in recruiting Army much. We see the opportunity and have every confidence leavers. they will deliver. [Official Report, 20 January 2020, Vol. 670, c. 6.] [Official Report, 20 January 2020, Vol. 670, c. 12.] Letter of correction from the Minister for School Letter of correction from the Secretary of State for Standards, the right hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Education, the right hon. Member for South Staffordshire Littlehampton (Nick Gibb): (Gavin Williamson): An error has been identified in the answer I gave to An error has been identified in the answer I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone). the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and The correct answer should have been: Hessle (Emma Hardy). Nick Gibb: My hon. Friend raises a good point. The correct answer should have been: Veterans make attractive members of staff in our schools, they inspire young people and help to improve behaviour. Gavin Williamson: I welcome the hon. Lady to her Our Troops to Teachers scheme was slow to begin with, position and wish her the very best in her new role, but its successor, the Troops to Teachers initial teacher although I thought she was a little ungenerous in her training bursary, is now proving successful in recruiting comments. Just in the past six months, we have delivered Army leavers. an extra £400 million for 16-to-19 education; committed Further Education an extra £1.8 billion to FE colleges’ funding; and created The following is an extract from Questions to the a national skills fund to be delivered over the course of Secretary of State for Education on 20 January 2020. this Parliament, worth more than £3 billion. In my judgment, that is a lot of money and a real investment Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) in our college sector. We are giving them the opportunity (Lab): More than three quarters of sixth-form colleges to achieve so very much. We see the opportunity and do not believe they have the funding they need to support have every confidence they will deliver.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 4 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 153 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Australian Bushfires...... 167 continued Climate Change ...... 156 NATO Allies...... 153 Gambia: Arrests of Protestors ...... 164 Prosperity in Africa...... 159 Iraq...... 166 Topical Questions ...... 168 Leaving the EU: Human Rights...... 165 UK Nationals: Consular Support ...... 161 Libya: Peace Process ...... 164 Ukraine...... 155 Middle East ...... 166 Wuhan: UK Nationals...... 159 Middle East Peace Plan...... 162 WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Tuesday 4 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENERGY AND INDUSTRIAL SCOTLAND...... 8WS STRATEGY ...... 5WS Contingencies Fund Advance ...... 8WS Parental Bereavement Leave and Pay ...... 5WS CABINET OFFICE...... 6WS State of the Estate: 2018-19...... 6WS TREASURY ...... 6WS HEALTH AND SOCIAL CARE...... 7WS Bilateral Loan to Ireland...... 6WS Paterson Inquiry ...... 7WS Counter-Terrorism Asset Freezing Regime...... 7WS MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 4 February 2020

Col. No. Col. No. EDUCATION...... 3MC EDUCATION—continued Further Education ...... 3MC Teacher Recruitment and Retention...... 3MC No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked on a copy of the daily Hansard - not telephoned - and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 11 February 2020

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF BOUND VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), by applying to the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons. Volume 671 Tuesday No. 21 4 February 2020

CONTENTS

Tuesday 4 February 2020

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 153] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office

Universal Credit: Delayed Roll-Out [Col. 175] Answer to urgent question—(Will Quince)

Lobby and Media Briefings: Journalists’ Access [Col. 190] Answer to urgent question—(Chloe Smith)

Paterson Inquiry [Col. 200] Statement—(Ms Dorries)

NHS Funding Bill [Col. 212] Considered in Legislative Grand Committee (England); not amended; read the Third time and passed

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill [Col. 277] Programme motion (No. 2)—(Iain Stewart)—agreed to

Rating and Valuation [Col. 278] Motion—(Jesse Norman)—agreed to

Petition [Col. 285]

Rail Services: North-East England [Col. 286] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Net Zero Targets and Decarbonising Transport [Col. 1WH] Innovation in Hospital Design [Col. 26WH] Climate Justice [Col. 33WH] Local Housing Allowance: Homeless Young People [Col. 58WH] Lloyds, HBOS and the Cranston Review [Col. 67WH] General Debates

Written Statements [Col. 5WS]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 3MC]

Written Answers to Questions [The written answers can now be found at http://www.parliament.uk/writtenanswers]