99 Resolution re. [ RAJYA SABHA ] President's rule 100 Continuance of in Punjab

SHKI V. UUFALSAMY; the HOBIB Minister has not given any valid reasons for continuation of Presidents rule in Karnataka. Therefore, I register my pro- test and I am walking out.

(At this stage, the hon. Members left the Chamber). i SHRI SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY: Since no assurance has beengiven that the elections to the Assembly will be held THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; Now, I not later than Parliamentary elecions, J shall first put the amendment moved by also join the walk out. Shri Satya Prakash Malaviya to vote. (At this stage some, hon. Members left The question is: the Chamber) "That in the said Resolution in the fourth line, for the words for a further period THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Nov, of six months' substitute the words uP*6 the question is; the 31st December, 1989" "That this Houseapproves the con- tinuance in force of the Proclamation The motion was negatived, issued by the President on the 21st THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; Now, April, 1989, under article 356 of the Constitution, in relation to the State of I shall put the amendment moved by Shri Karnataka, for a further period of six Shri Subramanian Swamy to vote. months with effect from the 21st Octo* bar, 1989." The question is: The motion was adopted. "That after the said Resolution, the following be added, namely:— Resolution re. Continuation of presidents "That the House further resolve* proclamation under article 356 in relation that the general elections to the Kar- to pujab Inataka Assembly shall b© held not later than the general elections to the Lok Sabha". THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Stow, ive will take up Punjab. 4. The motion was negdtived. THE MINISTER OF HOME , AF- FAIRS (SHRI BUTA SINGH): Madam, SHRI M. S. GURUFADASWAMY: [ beg to> move: Madam, I oppose the continuation of President's rule in Karnataka. There 'That this House approves lh« coa- is no justification for continuation of tinuance' in force of the Proclamation . President's rule. No valid reasons have issued by the President on the 11th been given by the Government so far for May, 1987, under article 356 of tha continuation. President's rule is being Constitution, in relation to the State of •used for partisan ends. We oppose Presi- Punjab, for a furher period of six dent's rule. In protest, we are walking rnonhs with effect from th« 11th No- out. vember, 1989."

[At this stage, some hem. Members left As the House is aware, in view of th« the Chamber) hen prevailing situation in Punjab, pro-

101 Resolution re. [ 1? OCT. 1989] President's rule 102 Continuance of in purnjab clamation under article 356 of the Consti- ne has stated that it is necessary that the tution in relation to the State of Punjab President's rule in Punjab be extended for was issued on 11th may87 on the re- a further period of six months with commendations of the Governor. Appro- effect from 11th November 1989. The val of Lok Sabha as well as Rajya Sabha Governor has further mentioned that it for the issue of Proclamation under arti- is not possible to have any Assembly elec- cle 356 was obtained on the 12th May tions as there is near total uncertainty in 1987. The Legislative Assembly the political arena ^ Punjab with the of the State which was initially kept un- Akalis being divided and sub-divided in der suspended animation was dissolved on several groups and sub-groups. As a res- the 6th March, 1989 on the recommenda- suit, a politically unstable situation has tions of the Governor. As the law and arisen and the Governor is doubtful whe- order situation in the State continued to ther any cohesive or stable State Gov- be disturbed, approval of both the Hous- ernment could be formed. The Gover- es of Parliament was obtained for con- nor's view is, a much more stable poli- tinuation of President's rule for a further tical situation will errerge in Punjab after period of six months with effect from the coming Lok Sabhi elections. Accord- 11th November, 1987. ingly, he has recommended that the As- sembly elections should be held only after Madam, under the existing provisions of article 356(5) of the Constitution, the' Lok Sabha elections whenever they are held. In the circumstances, the Gov- President's rule could not be extended be- ernor has recommended that the Procla- yond a period of one year unless the two conditions mentioned in that clause are mation dated 11th May 19-87 under Arti- cle 356 of the Constitution may be ex- met. As both these conditions were not tended for a further period of six months fulfilled, article 356(5) of the Constitu- tion was amended by the Constitution with effect from 11th November 1989. (Fifty-ninth Amendment) Act 1988 so Keeping in view the situation prevail- as to make clause 5 of that article inap- ing in the State of Punjab and taking all plicable to the proclamation issued on the relevant factors into consideration, the 11th May 1987 with respect to the it is proposed that the Persident's rule in State of Punjab. With this amendment, Punjab may be continued for a further President's rule can be extended, if neces- period of six monthswith effect from sary, for a total period of three yearsin 11th November 1989. In view of the Punjab without fulfilment of the condi- position explaine|d by me, I solicit the tions mentioned in clause 5 of article approval of this august House for the 356 subject to the approval of both the resolution mentioned by me at the begin- Houses of Parliament for continuation ning. of proclamation for a period of six mon- ths on each occasion. After enactment of THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: There it the Constitution (Fifty-ninth Amendment) an amendment by Mr. S. P. Malaviya. Act, 1988, President's rule in Punjab has I would like him to move it without mak- been extended with effect from 11th May ing a speech. 1988, 11th November 1988 and again with SHRI SATYA PRAKASH MALA- effect from 11th May 1989. The present VIYA(Uttar Pradesh): Madam, I move: term of President's rule is due to expire on 10th November 1989. The Governor "That in the said Resolution in of Punjab in his recent report to the the fourth line, for the word for a President of India has stated that the further period of six months substitute fight against terrorists has reached a the words upto the 31st December, critical stage. With the fresh spurt of 1989." anti-national terrorists trying to come from across the border with newly suppli- The questions were proposed. ed arms and ammunitions, there exists an THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Now, . imperative need to firmly and effectively the resolution and the amendemeht are deal with them as well as the terrorist* open for discussion. Shri Yashwanft who are already in Punjab. Accordingly, 103 Resolution re. [ItAJYA SABHA] Presidents rule lo4 Continuance of in Punjab

[The Deputy Chairmatf]

SHRI YASHWANT 9INHA (Bihar); Madam Deputy Chairma^ ... (Interrup- tions) • •. as we sit here in_ this House to discuss once again the extension....

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order please.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: ...of President's rule in Punjab^ I am aware of the hollowness of the ritual that we are going to undergo. Fox two and a half years, democracy has been extinguished in Punjab. Punjab has been, as the Home ■ Minister has just said, under President rule since 11th May 1987. And once again, this incompetent Government has come before us for the extension of President rule in Punjab for another six months. But even more interesting, more amusing, than this proposal or Resolution of the

]Q5 Resolution re. [12 OCT. 1989] President's rule 106 Continuance of in Punjab Government, Madam Deputy Chairman, is the reason which the Government has mentioned for the extension, of President's rule. I was tryng to listen carefully to the reasons which the Minister was men- tioning in his speech. Now, what did the Minister say? The Home Minister said that according to the report of the Governor Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, the point I the fight against terrorists has entered a am making is that this time when the Gov- critical phase—a critical phase has been ernment of India has come up with a re- reached in the fight against terrorism! commendation of the Governor for tha extension of President's rule, it has abso- and, therefore, in order not to interfere lutely no legitimate reason, no legitimate with this critical phase, crucial phase, President's rule must be extended. This is reason whatsoever, for the extension of one of the reasons. The second reason, President's rule. And therefore, it is tha ■ Madam Deputy Chairman, is the repetition English of Mr. Siddhartha Shanker Ray, of the reason that they have mentioned in it is the officialese of the North Block which has come to the rescue of the Home the case of Karnataka, to which they have Minister in weaving certain expressions mentioned in the case of Karnataka, to which my hon, colleague, Mr. Jaswant "critical phase", "fight against terrorism" Singh, referred in his speech; nothing could and all that. And with no explanation he a greater mockery of democracy, no- whatsoever is to how h is a critical thing could be a greater insult to all phase, the Home Minister is trying to mis- lead this House and the nation. And I of us sitting here in this House on behalf of my .party not only oppose this than to be told that either in SCarnataka or in Punjab the people are resolution as vehemently as I can but I not capable in Karnataka or in Punjab also take serious objection to the reason* the people are not capable of giving them- which have been advanced by the Home selves a stable government and, therefore, Minister for the extension of President's rule. the rule of either Mr. Venkatasubbaiah or Mr. Siddarth Shanker Ray should con- tinue. Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I would like Now, in the case of Punjab, Madam to remind the Home Minister that it was Deputy Chairman, a very funny argument he himself personally who, as recently as has been advanced by the Governor which June 1989—to be precise, on the 3th of the Home Minister has quoted with appro- June 1989—told the Press in Bhopal that val, that the Akalis are divided and there- the Punjab problem would be solved veiy - soon, that terrorism in Punjab has almost fore Punjab will not have a stable govern- ended and that the last impediment in the ment and therefore we should have exten- solution of the Punjab problem has been sion of President's rule. removed and the Government hoped that [The Vice-Chairman (Shri B. Satyanara- the Punjab problem would be yan Reddy) in the Chair] solved. When I read it and as many countrymen of this great co- Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, can the Home untry read it we all felt that perhaps this Minister, can this Government, can .any- Government will not havethe audacity to body sitting here in this House really, se- come before Parliament again for the ex- riously, take this argument -to. be valid, tension of President's rule, irrespective of that because the Akalis are divided we the constitutional amendment which has must have continuation of President's rule? been kept.This is the brutality of the majority that we are seeing here in this House. While Punjab bleeds, while there is mayhem in Punjab, while innocent peo- ple are being killed, while police atrocities 107 Resolution re. [RAJYA SABHA] President's rule 108 Continuance of in Punjab [ ISfarl Yashwant Swaaj Punjab it is tne uovernmem. nobody else. I continue in Punjab day in and day out, weare told her© that President's misrule said it at that time. Mr, ia Punjab must continue. What is it that Darbara Singh is not here. He had taken we are extending in Punjab? It is not umbrage at my remark. I had said that merely an extension of President's misrule. it is the Government of India which, It is an extension of the tragedy of Punjab through Us actions, is producing fresh ter- under President's rule. It is an extension rorists everyday in Punjab and as long as of the brutality in Punjab under President's that factory which produces terrorists goes rule_ It is an extension of inhumanity in on, there will be no end to it. Punjab under President's rale. It is an extension of all that is had, The super cop, Mr, Rebeiro, has left in a government with the added ignominy Nothing can demonstrate the political that it is not a democratic government'. If bankruptcy of this Government which a democratic government fails, the powers praised Mr. Rebeiro sky high when he was that be m Delhi can dismiss that Govern- sent to Punjab. It was not Mr. Rajiv . ment. They can dissolve the Assembly and Gandhi, It was not Mr. Buta Singe is was they can impose their own rule. I had said not the politicalleadership of the Congress this when I was speaking on Punjab last in which the Government had faith. They time. I bad asked: "Who is going to> sit in put their faith in that one super cop, the judgment on you and who is going to say miracle man; Mr. Rebeiro. What has whether there has been President's rule or | happened? This gentleman has now been misrule where the terrorist killings have given a safe assignment somewhere in an been three times as such they were in Bar- East-European country so that his life nala's regime? Who is going to judge that? •could be protected while Punjab continues That judgment will have to come from the to bleed, while Punjab continues to bum. people and the people must be given a These three years have been chance to exercise that judgment. There- like a Sahara desert in Punjab fore, President's rule must be ended here When Mr. Rebeiro is prepar- and now irrespective of whether the Akalis ing to leave—or he has left, I do not know are divided or not. Tomorrow maybe they —what does he say? The man who advo- will say that the Congress Party is divided cated "bullet for bullet" to Punjab is now and therefore, they cannot have elections. a complete votary, a supporter of what is This is the most ridiculous argument that called the Chamanlal—line, the Inspector I have heard in a democratic framework General who voluntarily left Punjab be- ever. Therefore, this argument will not cause he was not in agreement with the hold.- Government Policy, Now Mr. Rebeiro talks of winning the hearts of the people. Sir, as I said, Punjab has been a great His language is very akin to the language tragedy unfolding itself before our eyes. we have all been using all these years. Whether we are sitting there or sitting here, We have all been saying that the Punjab •we are all helpless witnesses to this trage- problem and the situation in Punjab can- dy. We know what exactly is going' to not be brought under control by bullets happen. But neither the Home Minister alnoe. Try and win the hearts of the with all the might of the Government that people. But what has been the political is there at his disposal nor anybody else , initiative on the part of the Government? is in a position to influence the turn or Last time, Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, when events in Punjab today. Why? The reasons we discussed this issue, we were told that are not very far to seek, in the tragedy there was a Cabinet Sub-Committee which of Punjab today, the Government, of India was visiting Punjab. And this Sub-Com- has a rjrjmary role to play and I am sayieg mittee of which the Home Minister was this with the greatestnse of respoosihi- a part and the Foreign Minister was, per- If there is one orapisatiojafejcfrii haps, the Cnairmaor visit! Punjab on, thi PonsIWe for continued temfsm h\ 12th April. This Cabinet Sub-CommUtee was supposed to be a part of, the great, much-publicised package on Punjab of tM

109 Resolution m. [12 OCT. 1989] President's rule 110 Cnntinwrnre at in Punjab and the cohorts tnat tney command, jnere great Prime Minister of this country. One will be no stopping the truth and truth never heard about it ever again. Never did shall prevail in Punjab also. The truth is we get to hear about this wretched Cabi- net Sub-Commitee, what did they do, that the Government is behind the situation what was their report, what was the poli- in Punjab, the truth is that it is ruling tical solution they recommended for party which has created the situation in Punjab. All these months have passed, Punjab, the truth is that it is the ruling and tiiere has been no political party which is keeping the situation in initiative on Punjab by this Govern- Punjab as it is today. And the only ans- ment. And then all those things which hurt wer, therefore, is not the extension of the the Sikh psyche continue to be present not J President's Rule. The answer is what the only in an abundant measure but also in people of this country are going to do in a heightened fashion. What has happened the next few months, and that what answer to that Jain-Bannerjee Panel which was set is to throw them out lock, stock and bar- up to ensure or recommend prosecutions rel. And once that is achieved, then the in the killing of Sikhs in Delhi hf Nov- famous Punjab problem will be solved in ember, 1984? That has been abandoned. a jiffy like this, and this Minister, this Mr. Buta Singh has not mentioned what Government and this Prime Minister may the Government thinking is, now that after come back to the country, and see how so rftany years, four and a half years or we solve this Punjab problem. And with five years not a single individual has been this, Sir, I absolutely and stoutly with all pupished for those massacres which took the emphasis at my command, oppose place in the capital of this country. No- strongly this move. This is absolutely a thing at all. The Government is absolutely nefarious, dangerous move on the part of silent on this. And I do not know whether this Government to continue to kill, mur- in his reply the Home Minister is going to der and paralyse democracy in Punjab for cover this point. But any other Govern- another six months. And I demand that ment worth' its salt, if it had any sense of the President's Rule should be ended forth- honour of shame would have come be- with, and elections to Assembly in Punjab fore this Parliament and said the first must be held, and all those who have been thing about its alternative action program- kept behind bars including Mr. Badal and me after the High Court's judgement on Mr, Tohra—there is no reason why they Jain-Bannerjee Panel. But there is nothing should continue to be behind bars; if they of the kind. No, They are going ahead, can be kept behind bars, then most of the they the going ahead in their dictatorial, in Cabinet Ministers sitting here should also their autocratic, in their totally undemo- be behind bars—should also be released cratic way. Even the Newstrack cassette and immediate elections should be ordered has been censored. When the leader of my in Punjab. Thank You, Sir. Party, Mr. Chandra shekhar, for the first time went on that and gave an interview, what have the Censors done? They have SHRT VISHWA BANDHU GUPTA chopped off that particular sentence or (Delhi): Mr.. Vice-Chairman, Sir, I have sentences that he utterred because it very carefully listened to my hon. friend, did not Suit the ruling party Mr. Sinha, and I think h e had come after to let the people of the coun- reading the morning newspapers, perhaps try know the truth. But I would like to his line of argument and the data that he tell you, Sir, and I would like to tell the built up would have been different. I am Home Minister through you that the truth convinced that his own speech, Mr. Vice can never be suppressed. If we believe in Chairman, is adequate answer for continua- the motto which is written all over this tion of the President's rule in Punjab, I^et building and all over the country—'Satya- file list jwhat he has said. I will quote meva Jayate'—let the Government be war- only a few sentences. Hon. Mr. sinha has ned that the truth shall prevail despite said that Punjabis Weeding and here both, Mr. Rajiv Gandhi, despite Mr. Buta Singh sides of thb House including the Govern- ment of India are helpless soectatow in Ill Restitution re. [RAJYA SABHA] President's rule 112 Continuance of in Punjab [Shn vishwa flandhu Guptaj Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, actually the this spectacle. Now this is one of the argu- hon. Home Minister is not asking for an ment that the Hon. Home Minister has unlimited period of time for extendos *e built for hi* decision to continue the Presi- President's rule in Punjab. More and more dent's rule in Punjab as suggested and terrorists are appearing on the scene al- recommended by the Governor.of Pun- though Mr. Yashwant Sinha has also ag- jab. Because the Governor has sta- reed that probably a large number of terro- ted that the conditions in Pun- rists are also being killed. Now, you are jab today, because of terrorist activi- talking about the super-cop, Mr. Ribeire. ties, because of the action going on, are I know Mr. Ribeiro. He is a fine gentle- not suitable for Assembly electioss. So, man. He is en efficient cop. Well, you call I would kindly have Mr. Yashwant Sinha him a super-cop, or not but note that as far as this one particular argu- the thing is that he did a ment is concerned, he is on very thin job as far as managing the situation in . ground and it will not be possible for him very difficult conditions was concerned. to convince this august House, that they And you will have to agree that today the should, reject the continuation of President's critical phase that the hon. Home Minis- rule. ter has talked about has actually arrived. If you kindly refer to the newspapers, you Now, Sir, Mr. Vice-Chairman, the ques- will see that while there are some innocent, tion, apart from the killing and bleeding of people who are being killed, there are Punjab, is whether there are suitable condi- tions, suitable enough, safe enough and also a number of hard core terrorists secure enough for holding Assembly elec- who are being killed by the tions. Mr. Vice-Chairman, Sir, if political police force today. Today, the morale of parties are divided and he agrees that they the police force is quite high in Punjab. are divided—Mr. Sinha has not said that They are tackling the problem. There is a the Akalis are not divided—if the major situation where terrorists are coming in political parties are divided, there would be from across the border. This is one point no suitable situation as far as holding of that the hon. Mr. Sinha from the other elections in a normal manner is concerned. side has not even talked about. For hiai, And that is precisely what the hon. Govern- I think) the situation across the border or of Punjab has recommended. It is not from Pakistan, does not arise. He does not a question of A party or B party. If the see the picture at all that there h a border, Akalis are there and they are divided that that there are people on the other side who means the situation will continue in such a are interested, and the government on the way that if and when the Assembly elec- other 6ide who are interested in creating a tions are held, there will be even more situation of instability in Punjab, that there strife and more difficulties and it would not is evidence that terrorists are benig trained be possible to have secure and safe and across the border who are coming from ac- just elections, as far as Punjab is con- ross the border and they continue to cerned. exertpressure on India. They have their own de- Now the third point that the Hon. Gov- signs. They may be a part of international ernor of Punjab has suggested is that » situation is likely to arise when stability conspiracy as far as this part is concerned. will come back and that would be only Mr. Sinha does not see it He sees only tho after the LokvSabha elections are held. people sitting across him, because we- are Now, this is one argument that Mr. Yash- want Sinha has not used, because the Gov-' on the Treasury Benches and he is in the ernor himself has suggested that time to- Onpositinn. Hfe-fjeels that the entire blame day is not ripe for holding Assembly elec- for vested interest in continuation of Presi- tions and they will be- held after the Lot dent's rule in Punjab lies with the Govern- Sabha elections then a. stable Government ment. Most humbly I would say that as far can be formed ..... - as this Government is concerned, and this

r i 2 OCT 19891 President's rule. 114 . 113 Resolution re. [12 uui. i» j inpunjab Continuance of party and the leader, many many initiatives Therefore, 1 would say that once have been taken. He himself referred to imple justification for the hon. Home the Sub-Committee. After all, efforts have Minister to have suggested it and it is been made; initiatives have been taken as he right step to have accepted the recom- far as our party is concerned; leaders have nendations of the Governor of Punjab, visited different districts, have had meetings 'or continuation of the President's rule there and they have tried to build up a or another six months. Thank you. situation and public opinion strongly aga- SHRI M. A. BABY (Kerala): Mr. inst the terrorists. We have resisted them; Vice-Chairman, the Home Minister has stat- the police' has resisted them; terrorists are sd that President's rule should continue in being killed in Punjab and Punjab and Assembly elections can be held the situation is better there only after the Lok Sabha elections. So far. than it was ever before. However, as wq are concerned, our demand is that the situation is not such as yet where elec- Assembly elections should also be held al- tions can be held to the Assembly today. ong with Lok Sabha elections. So I would most humbly say that this aug- 5,00 FJl.But we are sure about one thing, ust House will accept the recommendations whether the elections are to be made by the Governor for continuation of held after the Lok Sabha elec- the President's rule for only a pe- tions or not would be decided not riod of six months, with effect from 11th by those who are sitting now, on the Trea- November, 1989. sury Benches but by the present democrat- ic opposition. Therefore, We are sure that Mr. Vice-Chairman, we are all interest- elections to Punjab Assembly, Karnataka ed in democracy. We are all interested in Assembly and all that, will be held after the freedom of the press in this country. the Lok Sabha elections. We see everything being published and all Now coming to the logic, the rationale news with regard to what is happening in that has been advanced by the Treasury Punjab is being published. People are Benches for postponing the Assembly elec- aware of what is. happening in Punjab. tions in Punjab, just now my hon. friend Mr. Sinha has also agreed that it is not a from the other side tried to put an argfi- ment as if he was meeting the points raised question of this side or the other side. It by my colleague, Mr. Yashwant Sinha, but is a problem that is being faced by the despite being very attentive I could not find nation. But he has failed to see, as I any counter arguments put by my hon, mentioned earlier, the situation that Punjab friend in defence of his case.. is a border State, that the trouble in Punjab We know that the situation in Punjab is is greater in those three districts which are very bad. I do not know how we can des- directly^ linked with a country next door cribe the present situation. It has further and pressure is coming from there; terro- accentuated, it has further worsened and rists are coming from there; they are being even some of the Cbngress(l) friends in personal talks admit that whatever link was trained there; money is coming from there; there between the administration and the smuggling is going on from there in spite masses or people has been broknen today. of our best efforts. This is what I would ' During day time .people are harrassed. like the hon. Mr. Sinha and his party col- They arc put to trouble by the administra- tion and police. Money is extracted from, leagues on the other side of the House to them. During night time hapless people of see and give their full support to the efforts Punjab are subjected to atrocities of terro- ■being made by the Government of India rists. This is the situation. This is the actual and our party in order to tackle this prob- situation and who is responsible for this? So far as our party is lem which is before the nation, not the concerned we identify different for- ces who are responsible for this in very ex-

115 Resolution re. [RAJYA SABHA] President's rule 116 Resolution re. [ RAJYA SABHA ] President's rule [Shri M. A Baby] ference. The day we. reached Delhi, we received the most shocking and agonising plicit terms. We are Unanimous or there is news of the topmost youth leader of our a near unanimity so far as the pernicious organisation, Shri Sohau Singh Dheasin, role played by the terrorists is concerned being killed. He was relected at the con- though thanks to his occasional fixations ference in which we participated as secre- the Prime Minister uses to accuse the opp- tary. We embraced and parted. We nevsr osition of hobnobbing with terrorists and expected that he would be killed the very all that. We do not take that seriously next day. The Veteran Communist leader, though it comes from the Prime Minister. Shri Darshan SinpH Canadian, was murder- ed by the terrorists. I do not want to re- • call all the names, or sacrifices and all that. ■ ' So far as terrorism is concerned, the Now it is universally accepted. And leaders responsible political parties in our country belonging to different other political par- and not so, responsible parties in our coun- ties are also being killed. I do not say that try also are opposed to terrorism. We un- only Communists are being killed, or lead- derstand that, and terrorists are being aided ers and cadres of left parties are being and abetted by certain external forces, that killed. Some Congress (I) leaders are be- also we consider very seriously. 9a far as ing killed; some BJP leaders have been dealing with the question of terrorism is killed and many people not belonging concerned, the role played ty the ruling to any political party—innocent people— Party at the Centre is not at all of any de- hundreds of them—are being killed. And mocratic content. While dealing with the what is the role of Congress(I) as a na- Punjab problem the- ruling party at- the tional party? Does COngress(I) do some- Centre places its immediate narrow selfish thing to mobilise masses at the grassroot political interest above the solution of the level? Punjab problem. We need not dilate upon the danger of terrorism or in what unequi- vocal terms we should condemn terrorism. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: (Tamil Especially when I speak on behalf of our Nadu): They have no connection with the p»rty, we know that we need not have to grassroots. underline the glorious sacrifices that the activists of the left parties, the two Com- SflRI M. A. BABY: This is the simple munist Parties, have made'on the soil of question I ask from those who speak about Punjab. Punjab has great tradition of a grassroot democracy. Our people are being fighting for our Independence. We remem- murdered when they work, among the ber the valiant fight put up by Gaddar re- masses of people, when they try to or- volutionaries. We salute them'. We remem- ganise' people knowing fully well that they ber the glorious sacrifice of Shaheed Bhag- are being identified, they are being follow- at Singh. And with humility and confj: ed. They are being killed. The State Presi. dence, we claim that we of the left are , trying to carry forward that traditfon in dent of DFYI was murdered within a span Punjab with whatever limitations we have. of two years. Now the State Secretary has been murdered. Hundreds of them are being murdered when they go among the I had personally been to Punjab in the , recent past. I was there for three or four masse of people and organise them. And days to attend the State level Youth Con- what is the role of Congress(I)? Con ference. At gunpoint, we held our con- gress(I) is a1so speaking against terrori- ference for three days, challenging the ter- sm. On\ the one hand, the Punjab problem rorists. We held mammoth rallies which is being used by the ruling party at the were addressed by Shri E.M.S. Nam- centre for its narrow political gains. That bpodirjpad, the veteran freedom fighter, is our charge number one. There fa no and otter'youth leaders. And we returned point in somebody standing ap from that • side aad speaking about the foreign hand and destabilisation, an alj that, I would like to put a staple question. There here 117 Resolution re. [12 OCT. 1989] President's rule 118 Continuance of in Punjab been many summits wueio uui IUIUJ» fwyio or ruujao for uie gionous rote Minister had opportunities of meeting the played by the people of Punjab despite all popular Prime Minister of Pakistan. I do the provocation. Despite the most trying not want details, but did our Prime and difficult situation that prevails in Pun- Minister ever take up this question, especi- jab, they could preserve unity. I do not ally when we had so many occasions at our want to recall instances when terrorists ask- hands, regarding the role played by those ed people belonging to a certain community external political forces in training the to come out and line up and how people terrorists of Punjab, i^ arming terrorists in reacted in situations like that. There were Punjab? Did we ever take up this issue? many experiences to under line this point. Should we not take up this issue? So, just speaking about the role of foreign Now, when wp speak about holding hands in whipping up terrorist violence in Assembly elections, the Treasury Ben- Punjab will not help. ches say that it is impossible. But here, a paradoxical situation exists. The Prime Now it is being stated that a critical Minister, at one point of time, had said, stage has been reached in fighting terrori. "We are going to hold panchayat elections sm. What is that critical stage? I have in Punjab." This was the claim. I do not been going through some of the statistics. know what happened to that. Now the The Barnala Government was dismissed Governor says that Parliament elec- tions can ibe held. So, only middle level under the plea that it failed to deal with elections cannot be held there. the situation, and President's rule was im- posed. I fully understand the futility of THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRl B. comparing statistics, especially in relation SATYANARAYAN REDDY): Please to human lives. Whether it is five people conclude. or ten people killed, innocent lives are snatched away by terrorists. But, as you SHRI M. A. BABY; I am concluding. have raised this question that terrorism is This is a very strange situation. Once the 'being controlled or terrorists are on the Prime Minister claimed that panchayat run and things like that, I am forced to elections were going to Ije held, and the quote certain statistics. During the 20- Government advises that Parliament elec- month rule of Barnala, 709 people were tions can be held. But Assembly elections cannon be held! killed by terrorists. During 19 months of President's rule—one month less than the Barnala rule—2,906 people, were killed by Now, my honourable colleague from the other side referred to the "sensitive na- terrorists. And it does not include the la- ture", especially from the national securi- test figure of 1989; it does not include the ty point of view in view of the fact that • figure of the last nine months. So, the' Punjab forms partt of our borders and all claims of th© ruling party at the Centre that. It is due- tothe same reasons that wtf ate totally bogus, totally baseless. There- demand that there should be a popularly fore, I want to mention the point which elected Government in Punjab, because the ruling party at the Centre is placing with we repeated many times over, that °nly fire. Going by its narrow, selfish politieal by a political solution can the Punjab pro- interests, the situation in Punjab has been blem be solved. There, the ruling party at • vitiated by the ruling party at the Centra the Centre—the Congress Party—should and, in the same way, the situation in have some confidence in the people. When Jammu and Kashmir is being vitiated I say this, 1 wonder whether it can ever today. That State also forms part of our northern borders. I do not want to refer have some confidence in the people. Bat, to. what is happening in relation to the when we discuss the Punjab problem, w# Bodo agitation In Assam or how extremi- should admire, praise aad congratulate tbe sts are being given all sorts of encourage-

119 Resolution re. [RAJYASABTA] President's rule 120 Continuance of **• Punjab [Shri M, A. Baby] THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI I. SATYANARAYAN REDDY): Please <*». -Brent and help in the State of Andhia elude.' Pradesh to destabilize the Situation thete. Therefore, we accuse that the present Cen- SHRI M. A. BABY: S0 many are being tral Government is the greatest destabilis- driven away to tr*e camp of terrorists by ing factor in Indian politics today. And the role, the inglorious role being played the Punjab problem, or for that matter by the administration and the police in any other serious porblem that our coun- Punjab. try is facing today, cannot be solved with the present Government at the Centre. Now, Sir, we are being told...

I have already referred to the situation that exists in Punjab in relation to the THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI R. role of the bureaucracy and the police. SATYANARAYAN REDDY): Mease con- clude within two seconds. Some describe the situation by using the term "State terrorism" that exists in Pun- jab, which I.do not want to repeat drldo SHRI M. A. BABY: I am concluding. not subscribe to • But if any agency with Some "black cats" or "cat squads" ara integrity conducts an enquiry into the way being formed with the extremists who have in which the Sub-Inspectors and ASIs... been arrested and who have confessed and with some other people to find out the hide-outs of the extremists and all that I THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI B. do .not know how this can be successful. SATYAflARAYAN REDDY): Please My own experience of having gone there' conclude. and discussed with people, is that I am told this group is also playing havoc witfc the lives of the ordinary mass of people in SHRI M. A. BABY: I am concluding, Punjab. ile concluding, Sir, of late, the rak- Sir. Thank you for your indulgence. I am ing party at the Centre is again taking eonclndlijg now. recourse to a very dangerous line of so- called solution. They have installed one Mr.. Manjit Singh as the leader of the Sub-Inspectors and ASIs, many of them AISSF. —I do not say "everybody" but most of AN HON. MEMBER: Another Bhin- them—are minting money like anything dranwale. utilising the situation. Similarly the admi- nistration. SHRI M. A. BABY: Now this Mr. Manjit Singh is being portrayed as a mere'

A reference, a very correct reference has student leader. He is the President of tha been made by my colleague from the AISSF. I am reminded of the description other side, Mr. Gupta, that even after by the present Prime Minister who at that hundreds of terrorists have been killed according to the Government how more time was the General Secretary of tM and more people are getting recruited as AICC;, how he described Bhindranwal© terrorists. That question was raised. B»t , as spiritual leader who does not har» sny hon. colleague could not give a cohe- a sive reply to that. The administration and any political ambitions. Now tha very the police there are playing a very impor- same person who happens to be the Prime tant role in recruiting people as terrorists. Minister of our country, accuses the Op- During day time houses are being raided. position of "hobnobbing with terrorists. People are harassed. Money is extracted. If it continues for weeks and weeks toge- ther, what can tne young do?

121 Resolution re. [12 OCT. 1989] President's-- rule 122 of in Punjab THE VICE-CHAJRMAN (SHRI B. -naose, shrd cmfw shrdlu cmfwyp cmiwn*' SATYANARAYAN REDDY): Please and integrity and unity and sovereignty ot conclude. our country. Only by removing this party from the Centre the prestige of our coun- SHRI M. A. BABY: I am concluding, try can foe restored. Punjab problem and Sir.., other problems faced by the Indian peo- ple can also be solved by removing this So, in the way in which Bhindranwale party. All the problems 'faced by the IndL was brought into the picture now many an people can be solved by removing this new Bhindranwales are being brought into party. Therefore, I oppose this move to the picture. The latest addition is this Mr. extend the President's rule in Punjab. Manjit Singh. With all humility I would like to warn the Central Government that this sort of dangerous and nefarious move The Deputy Chairman inl the Chair will not help iq the solution of the Pun- jab problem. There is a saying in Malays- ian*, ,,: SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY (Andhra Pradesh): All of us experience THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI B. deja vu some time or the other in our life SATYANARAYAN REDDY); Please when you feel that you have been in this conclude. No more time. experience before. So, it is with a sense of deja vu that I stand up today when the Government is asking f or the extension of SHRI M. A. BABY: I am concluding, President's rule which when roughly trans- Sir. A national poet of Kerala, Shri KB- lated in the lay man's language in Punjab maraa Asan said in Malay alam. This and outside, means further atrocities aga- means a fly going into a lantern, a inst women further police excess, fur- lamp, extinguishes the light. In that pro- ther denial of democratic processes and cess it kills itself also. Here the Congress(I) further denial of democratic decision-mak- being the ruling party at the Centre is ing. That is what it means to the people trying its level best to extinguish demo- of this country. Why did they want to im- crarcy by different means. But I would pose the President's rule in the first in- like to remind the Congress (I) that stance? Why did they want to remove the this process of destroying democracy, as- popularly ejected Government? They said sassinating democracy, extinguishing demo- it was a law and order problem. They cracy, the Congres(I). would commit sui- still claim it is a law and order problem cide, but me people at large will take to some extent, not to mention the abso- ' charge and the light of democracy will lutely ridiculous claims they had in the continue to flutter. I may point out that other House which were very rightly en- this dangerous and nefarious game of the lightened by my colleague, those of criti- Congress(I) will not help. It is inflicting a cal stages of terrorism or whatever they grave damage to the democratic traditions call it. I cannot apply my mind to such of our country. That shows importance to asinine insinuations.. It is no longer ju^t a the unity of our country is • not being law arid order problem. It is an emotional given-. The latest revelations substantiate problem. It is a political problem. It i my point. At 2.30 the Associate Editor of violation of sensibilities. It is an erosion THE HINDU, Mr. N. Ram, had a press and abrasion of democratic processes. « conference where it has been conclusively Under the' guise of this we brought about proved with evidence that under the top- in this House this Resolution, Some of us most leader, who speaks about protecting went with you, some of us opposed justly the national security of our country and so. We have a reservation when the Gov- all that, the interests of our country have ernment kept asking for more and mow bee bartered away for crares and crores n powers which they claimed were being of rupees. This has been proved. used for the benefit of the State... {In- So, such a Government and such a terruptions) ... Madam, I would like leader cannot protect the country's interests Vrtllr fl

123 Resolution re. [ RAJYA SABHA ] President's rule 124 Continuance of in Punjab THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Well, I example, Prevention of Atrocities against am sorry my attention has been disturbed. Women Bill are not applicable in Punjab. The women who suffered in police excesses SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Madam, in Batala, widely publicised have no sym- there is no Home Minister present in the pathy from this House. No action has House. been taken. When the time comes, Madam, Y THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: They we have to question ourselves. What have gone to have at least a cup of tea. kind of people are we? As my colleague, Mr. Baby, has said, let us today stand up SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY: ' and salute the people of Punjab. , On the one hand you want to impose Presi- dent's rule State and on the other SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Madam, this is the attention of the Treasury Ben- the Minister cannot have his back towards ches which they show. you.

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: One Ca- THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Don't binet Minister and other Ministers are turn your back towards the Chair. Ha there. Don't worry. must be having consultations. Renuka, continue. THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF COMMERCE (SHRI P. SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY-. R. DAS MUNSHI); We shall inform Despite individuals standing on the floor word to Word. of this House who were thanking the Congressmen of Punjab, the credit goes to the people of Punjab. Every Indian who SHRI N. E. BALARAM (Kerala): There had stood up is the perfect symbol of se- are three Home Ministers at. the Centre. cularism. Communities are living in great harmony despite the disruptive effort of the SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY; ruling party. For that I salaam the people Under the guise of protecting the State, mera. Bharat mahan, to look after the State, we kept asking this august House for more and more po- wers, more and more provisions. We pas- THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN; I thought sed the Terrorists and Disruptive, Activities you are concluding. Bill and Special Courts Bill. We waived the Indian Evidence Act. The House also SHRI SYED SIBTEY RAZI (Uttar empowered them to use article 249. The Pradesh): That means she has accepted basic violation of the philosphy of juris- "Mera Bharat Mahan". prudence whereby let a man be said to be innocent till he is proved guilty. In Pun- SHRI KALPNATH RAI: I salute for jab we take fhe Indian away. You lock thesewords. him up and you tell him that he is guilty till he proves he is innocent. We have vio- lated every decent norm of humanity, SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY: every essence of decency and we in this Thank yoir We will salute each other House irrespective of what party, which outside. State We belong to are all, guilty. We are all guilty of this crime. Today, we stand Madam, they talked about holding of on the floor of this House and sound Panchayat elections. Why? Because they self-righteous in being divided into party are holding the seats in Punjab for ran- sectors and we claim or proclaim our faith som. They know that they are not going to an individual and speak what is not the to win the elections there. They hold the truth and our heart does not bleed for seats to ransom and dangie the carrot. our brothers and sisters in Punja6. The They say "We are going to hold the Pan- Bills thai passed fa Parliament as for chayat elections in Punjab but not parlia- mentary elections". Since they are seeking: 125 Resolution re. [ 12 OCT. 1989 ] President's rule 126 Continuance of *» Punjab extension of President's rule in Minister is not nere; it was not important Punjab where is the guarantee of holding enough for him to be here. I would like, Assembly elections? There is no guaran- through you, to ask him to recollect how tee. many men in uniform were killed during the 1984 riots, whose uniform signifies the might, the honour, the faith and the inte- grity of my country, the MAHANTA of

There was one query raised. They said, what is happening in Andhra? There is a book recently published in Canada called "Soft Target". The Government has not denied these allegations. •

THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Don't have a running commentary. Mrs. Chow- dhury, your time is over.

SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY: Madam, why am I opposing this? I Madam, you have allowed others to en- am opposing this not because I am m the croach on my time. (Interruptions)... Opposition, not even because I am a "The Government of India's intelligence! woman of this country, not for anything operatives or the Centre's systematic and but I am questioning the basic honesty of persistent policy of encouraging violence this Government in wanting to implement in Opposiion-ruled States and the irrepara- it. There is a basic dishonesty which pro- • ble damage this policy has done to the pels this Government to a self-destruction national interest...'' The Government which they seem to be bent on and I has not denied this and if they have any cannot stand by as a mute witness to doubt about what I am saying, do read the watch this destruction in this part of my magazine "Surya". It is very much there, nation. what the intelligence agencies of the ruling Government are being used for and how THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mute, they are detrimental to this Government. you are definitely not.

SHRIMATI RENUKA CHOWDHURY: I am very vociferous in saying that I Thank you, Madam. That is a tribute to wholeheartedly oppose the continuation of my vocal ability. Madam, I draw your President's rule in Punjab. You cannot attention to what my colleague Mr. Ya- reduce the people of Punjab to statistics, shwant Sinha has said about the 1984 to reasoning. Please define what you mean riots. 3700 Indians died in the capital. by critical stages. It may be quite different They were murdered. It was a deliberate, from what the rest of the people in this premeditated cold-blooded murder. Where country think about it and when the elec- is the coascience of this country? Where tions come, the people of this country are is the conscience of the ruling party? Wha^ going to transgress all these limitations is going to happen to those widows, those and then the Congress will be running orphans? from the country. Thank you. And then Madam, I will tell you wha\t is going on in Ahdhra. Wait The Home THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Shri Sbanker Sinh Vaghela. Mr. Vaghela, be- fore I ask you to speak, I want to make 127 Resolution re. [ RAJYA SABHA J President's rule 128 Continuance at .in Punjab

[The Deputy Chairman] one announcement. I am going to abide by time very strictly because we have to dis- cuss the communal situation also. Now, you have five minutes. Please confine your- self to fivtj minutes.

129 Resolution re. [ 12 OCT. 1989 ] President's rule 13&

SHRI PAWAN KUMAR BANSAI, (Punjab): Madam Deputy Chairman, this decision to promulgate Presidents rule in Punjab was not a happy deci- sion. It was a difficult decision taken at a time when the Akali Government showed total lack of capacity and the will to light terrorism. Unfortunately, what we bear today from the other j side is an accusation, the same accu- | sation, that the Centre is carry- I ing on with President's role with 131 Resolution re. [RAJYASABHA] President's rule 132 Continuance of" ' in Punjab

[Shri Pawan Kumar) dam, this response of theirs, this approach of theirs, betrays a lack of comprehension narrow political interest}. Madam this: about the position that an Assembly holds accusation is shown of any substance and "in "a State. The Centre has not said that an honest assessment of the situation pre- the situation is not conducive to holding vailing in the State and of the reaction any elections at all. But they very welt and responses of the Congress to the know as to what would be the responsi- various national and other issues. bility of the law-keeping forces if elec- tions to 117 constituencies were to be held Madam, the Centre though of promul- along with 13 constituncies for Parliament. gating President's rule in realisation of The State Government would be burdened its responsibility to protect every State with the law and order problem. It would against internal disturbances. And if they have to provide security to all the candi- were to go into the record of the Cong- dates which those people field from ^ ress it is for everybody to see that it was other side. The number of candidates the Congress, the Darbara Singh Govern- would run into thousands. If we hold ment, that resigned, that it was Prime" only parliamentary elections, the number Minister Rajiv Gandhi who initiated dis- of candidates would be not more than a cussions with Sant Longowal and reached hundred. the Sant Longowal-Rajiv Gandhi accord. There was an accusation of extinguishing Madam, a very irresponsible—-permit democracy by Congress. It was Prime me to use that word—allegation was Minister Rajiv Gandhi who wanted to made against the Congress saying that ensure that the flame of democracy re- in Congress is a destabilising force in the mains alive the country and he entered country, I want to remind them of a very into an agreement with Sant Longowal. recent incident. The duty of every Gov- It was the failure of the Akali Govern- ernment, under the Constitution or other- ment and total indifference of the Op» wise, k to look to the welfare of the peo- position parties which led to the present ple, is to work for the progress and pros- situation. It was the Congress which d&- perity of the State and the country. But cided to go to the masses. Meetings were what did we have' on the 30th of August arranged. The platform was provided by this year? The ruling governments ol the Congress. Some of my hon. friends non-Congress Parties in different States ftt>m here went to Punjab. And what organised bandhs. We, for the first time, . did they do? They only secused the saw Ministers stopping trains. Here Mr. do? They only accused the Government, Baby was taking of a reign of terror let they only accused the Congress at the loose by the Congress in Punjab. He is platform provided by the Congress Tnat forgetting what his cadres are doing witfc is all they have contributed in solving the Congress workers in.his State. He fe &e Punjab problem. forgetting what his people have done with the press people in his State. Just to Madam, there was a high-power com- laugh is not enough. What is required is mittee constituted by the Prime Minister. self-introspection, a true and honest self- A high-power committee of 8 Central introspection. Madam, it is the wisdom Ministers went to Punjab. And how many of the people of this country who have W them associated or cooperated with not voted the CPM to power at the Cen- that committee? Today they am laugh- tre. Otherwise, the counry would have ing at the decision not to hold panchayat been destroyed by now. The country efcerlons in Punjab. They are forgetting would have faced a situation which the w soon that it was they, and without people of West Bengal are facing today. exception all the Opposition parties, who did not want panchayat elections to be feld fn Punjab. And today when an Madam, hon. Shri Shanker Sinh Vaghe- effort is being made to start the democra- la also used the time given to him for tic process by holding parliamentary only hurling accusations against the Cong- efcctJons, they take objection to it. Ma- ress. I do not want to go into the gene-

133 Resolution re, [12 OCT. 1989] President's rule 134 Continuance of in Punjab sis of the Punjab problem. But permit SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: They are me to say that the Punjab problem began all telling you that I should be given with Mr. Shanker Sinh Vaghela's party more time. did 20 years .back. They went to each house. They caught hold of the. Hindus THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: They and- asked them to declare Hindi as their are saying that you don't go to Sri Lanka mother tongue. That was the beginning and confine yourself to Punjab. of the Punjab problem. Today he gets up fn the House to say that it is the SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Madam De- puty Chairman, the flames in Punjab have Congress which is perpetuating the situa- not been put out. Punjab is still in flam- tion there! Madam^ it is the BJP which es. It has become the Ulster of India. is worsening the situation in Punjab. Here Madam, I would accuse this Govern- . we find very convenient ploys to accuse ment. .. the Government for all the failures result- ing from the distorted policies due to SHRI BUTA SINGH: What else can lack of ideology by the people sitting on you do? the other side. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY:... That they Hon. Renuka Chowdhuryji tried to put are not earnest to solve the problem in forward a unique theory today. She said Punjab. Rather they would like to con- that she equates the promulgation of tinue the problem, they would see that President rule with atrocities on women. the problem perpetuates and continues in Madam, I do not know from where she Punjab for their own political advantage. draws this inference. The founding fathers of the Constitution incorporated [The Vice-Chairmain (Shri V. Naraya- provision for the President's rule to save nasamy) in the Chair). the system from total collapse when • a .Sir, when Mr. Barnala was the Chief particular sitaution develops in the coun- Minister of Punjab, for the first time in try. It is in furtherance of that that the the history of this Parliament, during the Oongress has always, acted. The interest Joint Session, the President of India in his before the Congress, the motivating factor Address applauded the role of the Chief for the Prime Minister, Shri Rajiv Gandhi, Minister, mentioning even the name of not the welfare of the Congress) is not the Chief Minister, Mr. Barnala. But what the' welfare of any individual in this party, happened? Within six months, he had to ft k that of the country. That has been face the fate of whoever goes nearer to demonstrated amply by him, by our peo- this Congress(I). It is their own strategy tfo, by our Government. —get closer, gain confidence, and stab them behind the back. This is their stra- Madam, because of the time that yon tegy- Sir, when there was a debate about have given me, I won't like to dwell fur- the Barnala Government, I stated on the ther on it. But I would only like to say floor of this House: "Now the Barnala that the situation in Punjab will be solved Government is a buffer between the extre- if our hon. Members on the other side mists and the' Central Government. Don't tell Akklis—they have no base of their remove that buffer." But, at that time, the own and Akalb are their partners—that Home Minister said that law and order they should unite, unite not for the myo- failed, the missionar's failed and so the pic purpose of stalling any initiative by Barnala Government should not continue. flie Congress but to unite for the welfare But what has happened? I may eiye the of the people of Punjab, to unite for the figures of killings in the year 1987 dur- welfare of the country. Only then there ing Mr. Bamala's tule and in 1988 during could be some semblance of what we say the President'.. Rule. In the month of a political process being started in the January, 1987 durine Mr. Bamala's re- State. gime, the number of killines was 63. But THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Mr. in January, 1988, dun'ne the President's Gopalsaasy. Only five minutes. Rule it was 143. In February 1987, dur- * 135 Resolution re. [RAJYASABHA] President's rule 136 Continuance of in Punjab

[Shri V. Narayanasamy] your policies, (lime bell rings). &ir, ing Mr. Barnala's regime, the figure was you do not know the quagmire you have 41, and in February, 1988, it was 141. In created in Punjab. You propped up iMarchs 1987, during Mr. Barnala's re- Bhindranwale for your own benefit. Then gime it was 65. In March, 1988, the you recently also propped up Manjit figure was 265. In April, 1987, it was Singh brother of Amrik Singh, who was 80. But in the month of April} 1988, it killed in the Bluestar operation. was 244. In the month of May, 1987, it What happened to the Jodhpur detenus? was 71. But in the month of May, 1988, They are still languishing in jails. They it wag 340. The number goes on like have been rotting in jails for years. In- this, double, treble and quadruple. nocent people. One day there was ant Now, what is your argument? Have announcement that a gtoup of persons you solved the problem? When Mr. will be released. There was an announce- Rebeiro took over the charge of the ment. When they came out of the jail/ Police force in Punjab, he stated, "bul- again they were captured and again they let for bullet, and that if the terrorists were taken to the prison. This is the have got a hit-list, the Police force also justice you are giving ot the people o£ got a hit-list". But, Sir, Now the very Punjab. Therefore, you have lost the con- same Rebeiro, the supercop had to ad- fidence of the people of Punjab. Now mit the fact that unless we win over the the voice of extremists is getting more hearts and minds of the people of Punjab, and more louder. Who is responsible for the problem can not be solved by more this? It is you who are responsible, be- police force. What does it show? But cause you wanted to crush the regional you have not won over the hearts and parties, you wanted to silence the voice of minds of the people of Punjab,. the regional parttes. You tried it in Kashmir Sir, I give you just one illustration. Yes- and as a result the pro-Pakistan elements terday, there was a demonstration by the j are raising their head. Then you have tried riot victims. It was a very pathetic sight, in Assam and you have instigated the a heart-breaking sight. Hundreds and Bodos. You wanted to crush the region^ hundreds of widows who have lost their al party in Andhra Pradesh and you creat- husbands, who have lost their bread-win- ed Bashkar Rao. t You wanted to crush ners during the November, 1984 riots had Telugu Desam. You tried it in Tamil to demonstrate after five years to get Nadu also. But because of the dynamic justice. I would like to ask the -Home leadership of our party and our organisa- Minister: Till date, what have you done? tional set up we have survived and you Even according to your official figures, were not able to capture power. You 2,733 persons were killed during the are, by doing this, really playing with November riots. But till date nobody has fire, since you accept the concept of fede- been prosecuted. What is the reason? ralism. If you want to annihilate the basic you could say that Jain-Banerjee committee concept of federalism then you cannot was constituted. Now the court has given protect the unity and integrity of this a verdict. But who is responsible for country. Therefore, the present situaion this? When the Ranganath Mishra com- in Punjab has arisen because of the bung- mission gave the verdict that a committee ; ling of your Government. should be constituted, the committee should 1 have been constituted under the ambit of j the Commissions of Inquiry Act. Now j after five years you are telling that no case has been registered, nothing could be done now. Even to this date this Par- liament has not discussed the Ranganath Mishra Commission report. And then how can you win the hearts and minds of the people of Punjab? They are getting more and more alienated from you because of 137 Resolution re, [12 OCT. 1989] President's rule 138 Continuance of in Punjab

139 Resolution re. [RAJYASABHA] President's rule 140 Continuance of in Punjab

DR. NAGEN SAIKIA (Assam); Sir, I stand to oppose the extension of Presi-. dent's rule in Punjab. Extension of Pre- sidential rule in the States is a game being played by the Government of India, that is, the Congress(I), for its own political benefits. It is some sort of ad hoc Cong ressfl) rule in the States. It is now be- coming brighter that the people of this country are going to throw Congress(I) out from power not only from the States but also from the Outre. This historic

fcU Resolution re. [12 OCT. 1989] President's rttte 142 Continuance of in Punjab development in the country has made disruptive, communal and extremist for- Congress(I) adamant to cling to power ces, the Central Government has been like a limpet under the cover of Presi- trying its utmost to create an atmosphere dential rule. favourable for declaring internal emer- gency and for postponing parliamentary They know, what has been done by the elections too. The Government headed people of Tamil Nadu is going to be re- by Shri Rajiv Gandhi has lost the confi- peated by the people of every State in dence of fee people for its sky-high cor- the country. Sir, it was the Central Gov- ruption and for its advocacy for untruth. ernment which indulged in violence in Now instead of trying to extend ad hoc Punjab earlier to capture power. Bhin- Congress(I) rule in Punjab and Karna- dranwale was the creation of Congress(I). taka, Mr. Gandhi should step down in With fee help of the Central agencies no time and seek people's verdict again. under the RAW the Government impart- This Government has no moral right to ed training to the youths in Punjab in be in power. guerrilla warfare and other tactics. The SHRI KALPNATH RAI: What about same thing is being done in Assam through the rice deal of Assam Government? fee Central agencies under RAW now to create chaos in the State so feat it could DR. NAGEN SAHCIA: There is no topple fee non-Congress(I) Government killing by the Government of 'Assam. The and capture power. But there is a say- killings are being committed by the people ing!—as you sow so yon leap. What you of your agencies. The irony of fate of planted earlier, that is now giving its India is feat the same Government is poisonous fruits in Punjab and fee same exercising power not only at the Centre thing will be repeated in other places but undemocratically also in the States. also. All measures are being taken by the Gov- ernment to snatch away the democratic rights of fee people of Punjab and to In fee name of curbing extremism, Pre. suppress them by using all brutal measu- sidential rule was clamped in Punjab and res. The Sikh community fa thus being time and again it is being extended ac- alienated. Therefore, on my own behalf cording to the convenience of fee Central and on behalf of my party, I oppose this Government. The people of Punjab havo Motion and I urge upon the Government been deprived of exercising their demo- to withdraw the Motion. cratic right to have a Government of feeir own. The Central Government is not in favour of federalism, rather they THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. are very much for centralism. Some; NARAYANASAMY): Dr. Ratnakar Pan. days back in a seminar on Panchayati Raj dey. Your time is five minutes. Try held in the Parliament House Annexe Mr. to conclude within that time. Vasant sathe. the hon. Minister of Ener- sy, who presided over one session, tried to interpret fee Preamble of fee Consti- tution to be very much for a unitary type of government. ,This indicates how much the Central Government is anti-federal-

The Government is trying to be very much desirous of giving power to people through panchayati raj and nagar palika, bat at the same time they are very much adament to get the powers of the States curbed to fee maximum extent. I have an annrehension that bv heme indulgent to 143 Resolution re. [ RAJYA SABHA ] ■ President's rule 144 Continuance of in Punjab

SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Sir, thesa remarks should be expunged. A Mem- ber should not attack another Member of this House. He b a sitting Member >f this House... Sir, he is exceeding bis limit. You should not allow that. It should be expunged... Patriotism is not the: monopoly of these people. He cannot: criticise and attack another Member of Ms House.

SARDAR JAGJTT SINGH AURORA (Punjab) ; Point of order... (Interrup- tions).. . It has nothing to do "with Pun-

DR. RATNAKAR PANDEY: Are yoo supporting Khalistan, Sardarji.

SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Has the Gov- ernment got any evidence? During the last session, the Home Minister also made certain charges. If. Government has got any evidence, let it prosecute tim... (In- terruptions) ,...

THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Dr. Pandey, you speak on "the subject., .(interruptions).. ,.

*'Expunged as ordered by the Chair. 145 Resolution re. £12 OCT. 1989] President's ml« 146 Continuance of in Punjab

SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: He knows SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Tbr only one subject and that is Jethamalani. . Vice-Chairman permitted me to raise a He doesn't know any other subject. point of order... (Interruptions)... I have been permitted by the Chair to raise a SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: I em on point or order. Sir, rule very clearly a point of order... (Interruptions),.. states the procedure for raising allegations or permitting allegations against a Mem- SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: Mr. Vice- ber of the House. There has to be a „ Cfaairman, he is on a point of order. prior notice. I want to know.. .(Interrup- tions) SHRI YASHWANT SINHA; Sir, I want to raise a point of order.

SHRI YASHWANT SINHA; Sir, I want to raise a point of order. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY: He never tew this book. What can he do? SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Mr. Vice-Chairman, if any Member of this House intends to make any allegation against another Member of this House, then he has to give prior notice. I want to know from you whether the honour- able Member has given you notice for THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. making the kind of allegation that he is NARAYANASAMY): Please sit down, making against another Member of this Dr. Pandey. He says he has a point of House... (Interruptions)... If he has not order. given notice, then al! that he hag said should be expunged... (InterrMptkms)i... SHRI YASHWANT SINHA: Mr. I want your ruling on this..'. (Interrup- Vice-Chairman, the proceedings of this tions)... House .are governed by certain rules, and this is the Rule Book which I have in my hand. All of us are aware that there THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. is a specific rule in the Rule Book, and NARAYANASAMY): Please take your this is rule 23 8A. I do not have to waste seat. your time and the time of the House... (Interruptions)... Mr. Ratnakar Pandey was referring to Mr. Ram Jethmalani's visit to foreign countries, and was referring only to what- ever he spoke there. If any personal as- persion has been cast, that will be remov- ed from the record. Whatever has hap- pened abroad in Mr. Jethmalani's visit

SHRT PAWAN KUMAR BANSAL: Is slogan shouting permitted from there? **Expunged as ordered by the Chair. 147 Resolution re. [ RAJYA SABHA] President's rule 148 Continuance of in Punjab

[Sim V. Narayanasamyj SHRI BUTA SINGH yielded to Mr. •there, he is referring to. If there are Jethmalani to speak if he wanted to, but personal remarks, that will be removed. Mr. Jethmalani did not speak. Therefor*, what Mr. Ratnakar Pandey is doing is SHRI N. K. P. SALVE (Maharashtra): what I did. I spoke in English : he is Mr. Vice Chairman, I want to submit to repeating it in Hindi. your respectfully that a Member is en- titled to criticise a particular view-point SHRI M. 1?. GURUPADASWAMY : of another Member. He is criticising a Please listen to me. I was present at that . particular viewpoint of Mr. Ram Jetha time. Mr. Jethmalani wanted to speak, malani That is not casting an aspersion. wanted to reply. But he was not allowed How is it casting an aspersion? to speak. He requested the Chair. But he was not allowed to speak at all. What Mr. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY : It was a per- Buta Singh is saying is not true. sonal attack on Mr. Ram Jethmalani. SHRI BUTA SINGH: It is true. SHRI N. K. P. SALVE: No, no. I have been listening to his speech. He has SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY : I not said anything against the Member. think all of you are suffering from a All that he is saying is about a particular nightmare. viewpoint that is being canvassed by Mr. Jethmalani. That he r> anti-national, he SHRI BUTA SINGH; Let me say that is entitled to say. Mr. Jethmalani has not so far written any- THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. thing in the press conradicting me. NARAYANASAMY). He was referring to Mr. Jethmalani's foreign visit and its SHRIV. GOPALSAMY : I think, Mr. continuation. Minister, you have decided to tspeak only untruth and not truth. SHRI BUTA SINGH : Mr. Vice-Chair- mna, Sir, I. remember that at the time of the last discussion in this very House I THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. quoted within quotes the speeches of Shri NARAYANASAMY): Conclude) within, two minutes. lethmalani in U.K. and the U.S.A: At that time Shri Jathmalani was present in DR. RATNAKAR PANDEY : How eas the House. I yielded to him to say some- I conclude ? I have not uttered a sentence. thing if he were to say something in de- fence of what I had quoted or against it. But he refused to take the floor. It has happened in this very House. SHRI N. K. P. SALVE : Is he not en- titled to criticise, that view, Sir?

SHRI BUTA SINGH : What has been quoted by me has not been refuted by Mr. Jethmalani,

SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY (Karnatak*) : That in not true at all. SHRI V. GOPALSAMY : The Home Minister is misleading the House. Mr. Jethmalani was not allowed to speak.

SHRI M. S. GURUPADASWAMY : HQ was not given a chance. Expuaged as ordered by the Chair,, . 149 Resolution re. £12 OCT. 1989] President's rule 150 Continuance o/ in Punjab

SHRI ASHISH SEN (West Bengal) : Are we discussing about Punjab of Mr. Jettimalaiii7 _

151 Resolution re. [RAJYASABHAj President's rule 152 Continuance of 'n Punjab

153 Resolution re. [12 OCT. 1989] President's rule 154 Continuance of in Punjab

SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA (West Bengal) ; Sir, when senility affects the wisdom of the House, sanity is affected and when sanity is affected, the insanity % Punjab cannot be ended. Unfortunately, the elders in the House have to remember that what is happening in Punjab is much more important and serious than to be affected by the spectre of. a particular personality this or that side of the House. While opposing the Statutory Resolution tooth and nail, I would ask Mr. Mr. Buta Singh to kindly explain if the Government is really interested ia solving the problem of Punjab. I ask this question because the Prime Minister, some months back had visited Jallandhar and while addressing a rally, he had pointed out that he would invite leaders of all the political parties to find out a new initk- ive for the solution of the Punjab prob- lem. Unfortunately, the meeting. did not take place. No national consensus has been arrived at, at the intiative of the Prime Minister because the meeting was never called. Therefore, I am led to be- lieve that the Government doe? want the problem in Punjab to linger—linger be- cause if the Punjab problem is lingering on, it gives the Government a leverage, In the same way, the Government wants the

155 Resolution re. [RAJYA SABHA] President's rule 156 Continuance of in Puniab [Shri GuruUas Das Gupta) larism is diluted. It is diluted because you Babri Masjid-Ramjanambhoomi tangle to want to reap political benefit in the ensuing remain unsolved. When the communal elections. climate in the country is deteriorating dangerously, this Government refuses to Mr. Chairperson, how is the Govern- • call a meeting of the National Integra- ment under Mr. Buta Singh which is . , tion Council. Therefore, Sir, I am led to functioning in Punjab ? I will give you an believe that thip Government wants to play instance. There have been three commit- cards with the fundamentalists to reap tees which this Government has set up narrow political advantage. I am told that under Siddhartha Sanker Ray. There is a i the Home Minister is in touch with a committee on peace and harmohy and •ection of terrorists in Punjab. In the that committee does not meet. There is same way, he % in touch with the Vishwa a committee under Siddhartha Sanker Ray Hindu Parishad to ensure that the so- on law and order which irregularly meets. called stone laying of Hindu Mandir on There is a committee under Siddhartha the outskirts of Babri Masjid is done in Sanker Ray on public grievances which, the presence of RSS volunteers and volun- generally does not meet. Therefore, the teers belonging to the Bajrang Dal in or- Government under Mr. Siddhartha Sanker der to ensure that the stone laying pro-, Ray has not Only become absolutely con- gramme is done smoothly. Therefore, the tradictory with the interests of the people legacy of rearing up Bhindranwal© still of Punjab but it is increasingly becoming continues and the new leadership, while in non-responsive to the grievances of the it$ political gain is not interested to have people of Punjab. There is a growing es- a national consensus, at the same time, th^ trangement between the Government led political leadership of the Congress' is in- by Siddhartha Sanker Ray under Mr. Buta terested to play dangerously either with Singh and" die interests 'of the people of the terrorists in Punjab or with the funda- Punjab. The gentleman who isa headtag mentalists in other parts of the country. This is the undiluted policy of the Govern- the administration there considers himself ment which claims itself to be' secular. The not to be the representative of the Primes Minister but of late he has started con- undiluted policy is to allow Punjab to burn «6 that they can reap the political benefits. sidering himself to bo the representjativei of The undiluted policy of this so-called secu- the Congress-I President. Therefore, his sar Government is to allow the fundamen- only job of late has been not to fight ter- talists to rise in other parts of the coun- rorism Tnii to consolidate the Congtess, try so that it can reap its benefit on put the Congress on its own feet so that the dangerous rise of Hindu fundamen- it can fight the next elections. This is the talism. This Government is inte- sordid istyle of the Presidential rule in rested to play cards. Politically, Punjab. this* Government is interested to keep itself in office by colluding or Mr. Chairperson, the position is, there is compromising with terrorism or funda- widespread corruption. There is not °t"y mentalism to ensure that it can get the more murder than it had been during the benefit of Hindu revivalism in he next regime of Mr. Barnala but there is wide- election. Mr. Chairperson, there can be no spread corruption. There is widespread In- dirtier canard than to say that the com- efficiency. There are complaints that the munists here in the counry are in collu- police is extorting money during day time. sion with communalism. You should know What is the morale of the police? The that the communists and the left forces morale of thejpolice is sagging because vfth their own lives are playing against the near relations of police officers are fundamentalism whether it is in Punjab, being kidnapped by the terrorists. Not ■whether -ft is in Ayodhya, whether it is only that. New techniques and devices are tn whether it is in West Bengal or being made use of by terrorists there in whether it is in other parts of the coun- Punjab. Therefore, the question is : How try. Therefore, by paying a heavy price and in what way this Government would we come here to tell you that your secu- like to fight terrorism in Punjab? You Can not fight terrorism with bullets alese. t57 Resolution re. [12 OCT. 1939] President's rule 158 Continuance of in Punjab

It is not the barrel of the gun which Kibiero in place of Mr. GUI or a GUI in the source of power in the modern world.the place of Ribiero. Of course, terrorism has ' political initiative, it is the politi- to be fought with bullets. At the same cal isolation of terrorism from the soil of time, there has to be political initiative. Punjab, which is necessary to bring about And political"intative means that there an end there. Terrorists, hard-core ter- has to be a national consensus. At the rorists, have been eliminated. But new same time I put this question to other terrorists are. taking their place. There- political parties : Why should people be- fore, terrorism has soil in the heart of longing to different political parties speak the people of Punjab. Why is it so ? If is in different voices ? Why should a party so because the people of Punjab are feel- having a unit in Chandigarh demand that ing hurt, the people of Punjab are feeling Chandigarh should be a centrally admi- humiliated; the people of Punjab have nistered"unit ? At the same time, the unit something to complain against the On- of that party should demand in other tral Government and that complaint is parts that it sould be a part of Punjab. not being looked into and as a result of Let all the political parties speak in the that sense of humiliation, new people, same language. Let all the political par- young people, are joining the fanks of ties come out with the same promise. Let terrorists. Therefore, if the Government there be a national consensus. And on the wants to solve the problem of Punjab, it basis of a national consensus the nation is not only by bullet in exchange of bul- as a whole can tackle the problem of let, it is not only by producing a separate Punjab. hit-list by the police which may be neces- sary. . I do not believe that the heart can Mr. Buta Singh, you may be a brave be changed so far as the .terrorists in man. You may be surrounded by the Punjab'are concerned. Terrorists will have Black Cats all the time. But the people to be hurt. But at the same time, there of India are much more braver and stron- has to be a political initiative. The Rajiv ger than you are. Aid, therefore, it is the Gaadhi-Longowal accord is not dead in people of India, all the secular forces my opinion. There can be a new dialogue • committed against terrorism, who have to and the basis of the new dialogue can be be activated. Your policy stands in the the Rajiv Gandh-Longowal pact. That can way. Your 'collusion, your compromise t>e the begining. But where is the intia- and your concessions to fundamentalism, tive? Either the Government dos not want whether in Babri Masjid or Ram Janam to solve the problem or the Government Bhoomi Mandir or in Kashmir or in feas . arrogated to itself the responsibility Punjab, your policy of compromise, stand of tacking the problem in "Punjab singte- in the way. (Time bell rings) Jmndadly which it cannot do. Therefore, Therefore, secularism calls for a con- handedly which ft cannot do. Therefore, certed drive against fundamentalism and Mr. Chairperson, in the opinion of the firm administrative means^ and at the same Communist Party of India, in the opinion time a firm political will. This is a Gov- of the Leftis^-iS the opinion of those ernment which lacks that firm political who are crusading against the forces of will. And that price is being given by the secession all over the country, I demand people of Punjab. And I can tell you that that let there be a meeting of all the po- if terrorism is not fought out politically litical parties. The Prime Minister has been and at the 'same time through administra- deliberately beraking his promise not only tive way, not Punjab but the whole of on the question of a discussion on the India will have to pay the price for iu Bofors but on the question of having a national consensus. Therefore, I put the only question to Mr. Buta Singh and I wish he explains : Secondly, I want the Government and In what way does he intend to tackle the at the same time the" Congress Party to Punjab problem, because Punjab cannot ensure that popular initiative is taken to be put under President's rule for all time1 fight terrorism at the grass-root level. Ter- to come? You will have to face elec- rorism cannot be fought by having a tions ? Therefore, what is his strategy so Iff Resolution re. [RAJYA SABflA] President's rule 1450 Continuance of in Punjab

(Shri Gurudas Das Gupta)

far as tackling the problem of Punjab is concerned f Thank you, Sir.

THAKUR JAGATPAL SINGH : Why is your party joining hands with... (/«- terruptions) SHRI GURUDAS DAS GUPTA : You are a (.finterruuptions) You are a* I put it on record. THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY): Take your seat.

Now, there is a message from the Lot Sabha.

MESSAGE FROM THE LOK SABHA The Appropriation (No. 5) Bill, 1989 SECRETARY-GENERAL: I have to report to the House the folio wing mes- sage received from the Lok Sabha, signed by the Secretary-General of the Lok Sabha :

"In accordance with the provisions of rule 96 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in Lok Sabha, I am directed^to enclose the Appropria- tion (No. 5) Bill, 1989, as passed by Lok Sabha at its sitting held on the 12th. October, 1989.

"The Speaker ha? certified that this Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of article HO of the Constitution of India." Sir, I.Jay a copy of the Bill on the Table.

* ————- ■ RESOLUTION RE. PRESIDENTS PRO- CLAMATION UNDER ARTICLE 356 IN RELATION TO PUNJAB—CONT». THE VICE-CHAIRMAN (SHRI V. NARAYANASAMY):iMr. Hanspal. Five Minutes.

†Expunged as ordered by the Chair.