W 344 PSJ 193 Jan 2011 Complete: Service Journal 30/12/2010 14:04 Page 1 JOURNALPRISON SERVICE January 2011 No 193

Where does the prison system go from here? Issue 193 SpecialPrison Service Journal Edition 1 W 344 PSJ 193 Jan 2011 Complete:Prison Service Journal 30/12/2010 14:04 Page 2

Contents

Editorial Comment 2

Crispin Blunt MP is Parliamentary Interview: Crispin Blunt Under-Secretary of State for 4 and Youth Justice. He is interviewed Jamie Bennett by Jamie Bennett who is the Governor of HMP Morton Hall.

Juliet Lyon is Director of the Prison Interview: Juliet Lyon Reform Trust. She is interviewed by 7 Martin Kettle who works in HM Martin Kettle Inspectorate of Prisons.

Nick Hardwick is HM Chief Inspector Interview: Nick Hardwick 12 of Prisons. Jamie Bennett

Richard Garside is Director of the Interview: Richard Garside Centre for and Justice Studies. 16 He is interviewed by Christopher Christopher Stacey Stacey, Information and Advice Manager at UNLOCK, the National Association of Reformed Offenders.

Michael Spurr is Chief Executive of Interview: Michael Spurr the National Offender Management 23 Service.He is interviewed by Monica Monica Lloyd Lloyd who worked for many years in the prison inspectorate before rejoining NOMS in Headquarters to work with extremist offenders.

Eoin McLennan-Murray is President Interview: Eoin McLennan-Murray of the Prison Governors Association. 29 He is interviewed by Steve Hall, Steve Hall former Governor of HMP Styal now working for SERCO.

Editorial Board Jamie Bennett (Editor) Margaret Adams HMP Morton Hall William Payne Public Sector Bids Unit Public Sector Bids Unit Maggie Bolger Dr Karen Harrison Dr Basia Spalek Prison Service College, Newbold Revel University of Hull University of Birmingham Alan Constable Professor Yvonne Jewkes Christopher Stacey HMP Winchester University of Leicester Unlock Dr Ben Crewe Dr Helen Johnston Ray Taylor University of Cambridge University of Hull HMP Pentonville Paul Crossey Martin Kettle Dr Azrini Wahidin HMYOI Portland HM Inspectorate of Prisons Queens University, Belfast Dr Michael Fiddler Monica Lloyd Mike Wheatley University of Greenwich Interventions & Substance Misuse Group Directorate of High Security Steve Hall Alan Longwell Ray Hazzard and Steve Williams SERCO Criminal Justice Division, Prison Service HMP Leyhill

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January 2011

32 Interview: John Bowers John Bowers is an ex- and former commissioning editor for Inside Maggie Bolger Time. He is interviewed by Maggie Bolger who works in HM Prison Service Training Services.

37 Interview: Rod Morgan Rod Morgan is part-time Professor of Criminal Justice at the University of Paul Crossey Bristol and Visiting Professor at both the School of Economics and the Police Science Institute, Cardiff University. He is interviewed by Paul Crossey, Head of Security and Operations at HMYOI Portland.

43 Interview: Rachel Halford Rachel Halford has been the Director of Women in Prison since July 2010. Karen Harrison She is interviewed by Karen Harrison who is a Lecturer in Law, University of Hull.

48 Book Review Jamie Bennett is Governor of HMP Controversial Issues in Prisons Morton Hall. Jamie Bennett

49 Book Review Turning the corner: Beyond incarceration and re-offending and Trial and error in criminal justice reform: Learning from failure Jamie Bennett

50 Book Review Crisis and change in the British and Dutch Prison Services: Understanding crisis-reform processes Jamie Bennett

Cover photograph by Brian Locklin, Health Care Officer, HMP Gartree.

The Editorial Board wishes to make clear that the views expressed by contributors are their own and do not necessarily reflect the official views or policies of the Prison Service. Printed at HMP Leyhill on 115 gsm Claro Silk Set in 10 on 13 pt Frutiger Light Circulation approx 6,000 ISSN 0300-3558 ♥ Crown Copyright 2009

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Editorial Comment

This special edition of Prison Service Journal has commercial and charitable organisations in delivering been commissioned in order to explore the question: services. This is not simply about competition but is where does the prison system go from here? This also about what has been described as the ‘Big question has been posed as the prison system is at Society’, a broad idea about how citizens can the start of a period of potential change. contribute to the wider and the There are at least three elements to this change. achievement of political objectives. The first is that the global economic crisis that started The third dynamic element of the current landscape in 2007 has led to the necessity to look afresh at how is the nature of the government. This is the first full public services are delivered. The Spending Review coalition since the Second World War. It has been was announced in October 2010 in order to provide claimed by many, particularly those within the a national plan for tackling the deficit in public government, that this marked the beginning of the ‘new finances. This is to be achieved predominantly by politics’, which would be less partisan and more reducing public spending rather than by raising collaborative. This is important as many commentators additional revenue. For the Ministry of Justice this will noted that the rise in the use of was mean a 23 per cent reduction in funding over a four fuelled by political and media competitiveness about year period. Meeting this challenge will mean asking being tough on crime. If the ambition of a ‘new politics’ questions about the use of imprisonment. Can it were to be realised that may mean a debate about crime continue to be used at the same rate and expanded and that is more temperate and rational. at the same pace as over the last 15 years? Can it These issues are explored in this edition by nine continue to be delivered in the same way? Will prison prominent and knowledgeable players in the world services have to be scaled back? Will they have to be of prisons. These include those with senior roles delivered by different providers? These are all including the prisons minister, Crispin Blunt, the Chief questions that have confronted governments around Executive of NOMS, Michael Spurr, and the Chief the world over the last three and a half years and will Inspector of Prisons, Nick Hardwick. It also includes continue to challenge them. For many, this has led to those who can speak from the perspective of those at a shift in their thinking about how many people the front line of prisons including Eoin McLennan- should be in prison as well as what services they Murray, the President of the Prison Governors’ receive whilst they are incarcerated. Association, and John Bowers, an ex-prisoner and The second element of the potential change is editor of the prisoner newspaper Inside Time. that a new government was elected in the UK in May Prominent commentators are also interviewed 2010. Elements of their policies are starting to including Richard Garside from the Centre for Crime emerge and will be fully announced in a sentencing and Justice Studies, and Juliet Lyons of the Prison Green Paper. One of the key aspects of the policy Reform Trust. The edition also includes two experts changes include challenging the use of imprisonment who look at the issues from the perspective of and arguing that imprisonment should not continue specific groups. Rod Morgan brings his world-class to expand and indeed should start to contract. This expertise in young people in the criminal justice has been argued not only on grounds of efficiency, system, and Rachel Halford talks about the issues that this is not affordable, but also on effectiveness from the perspective of women in prison. grounds, that community sentences often work The issues were discussed with each of these better, and on moral grounds, that the continued interviewees through a standard list questions. These expansion of prison is not justified. Many questions examined the key points including the size commentators have noted that this marks a shift in of the prison population and the conditions of political policy. The second distinct area of policy imprisonment now and in the future. They also emerging is about the approach to the purpose of addressed prominent government policies including imprisonment. There is an increased focus on the ‘big society’, the ‘broken society’, the rehabilitation and in making sure that prisons are ‘rehabilitation revolution’ and the role of the effective at providing services that reduce the commercial and charitable sectors. They were also likelihood of reoffending on release. The asked about how these changes might have an third is in re-examining the role of the state. impact on particular groups including prisoners, This can be seen in discussion about the role of prison managers and prison staff.

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Each of the contributors adds a distinctive and particularly as this is turning a tide that has been personal view but there are some common themes progressing for over a decade and a half. How will that emerge from the interviews. The most clear are this direction be maintained when inevitably a high that there is an emerging consensus that the use of profile case hits the headlines? What will the reaction imprisonment needs to be reduced and its purpose be to political criticism and claims of being ‘soft’ on refocused on rehabilitation. There is also an orthodox crime? How will the resistance of unions or view that is pragmatic about the operation of prisons professional groups such as judges be overcome? and services, being comfortable with a mixed Finally, the interviewees recognise that an aim such as economy of public, commercial and charitable reducing reoffending is laudable but turning this into providers. Many of the interviewees also welcome the reality is difficult. What approaches work? Can pilot of ‘payment by results’ at HMP Peterborough. In complex social problems be effectively addressed in this innovative project, a consortium is investing up prison? Will payment by results be attractive to front in a scheme to mentor released prisoners with sufficient numbers of investors? Although there the of making a return on their investment appears to be an emerging consensus, turning this by being paid for reducing the instances of into reality will have to follow a rocky road with many reoffending amongst those involved in the scheme. If pitfalls and potholes along the way. successful, this may provide a model for a new This edition of Prison Service Journal is published approach to funding services for prisoners. at an important time and is an attempt to provide an It is recognised by the interviewees that informed and stimulating exploration of the key achieving their aims will be challenging. In particular issues. This will provide practitioners and a wider the financial pressures will make it difficult to audience with insights from respected professionals maintain services and there is a risk that there will be and commentators. This is an important resource that pressure to erode the quality of provision for sets out the current direction of travel and the prisoners. Some of the interviewees are also realistic challenges to be faced. The success of this project will that there may be media, political, professional and be apparent in the years ahead. popular resistance to reducing the prison population,

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Interview: Crispin Blunt Crispin Blunt MP is Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice. He is interviewed by Jamie Bennett who is the Governor of HMP Morton Hall.

Crispin Blunt became the Member of Parliament CB: We have a major social justice agenda to for in 1997 and since May 2010 he has address and rehabilitation of offenders is a key part of been the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of that. That is why I sit on ’s Cabinet State for Prisons, Probation and Youth Justice Committee on Social Justice. If one looks at the life within the Ministry of Justice. cycle of an offender, for all too many people it is He served as an army officer until 1990 before predictable from the circumstances that they grow up he entered politics. Between 1993 and 1997 he in that they are going to get into trouble with the acted as special adviser to in his justice authorities as they get into their teens and roles as Secretary of State for Defense and Foreign progressively as they become men. That path people Secretary. Whilst in Opposition, he held shadow take is far too predictable. As it is predictable, we ministerial briefs covering Northern Ireland, Trade should be able to divert people from it with more and Industry, and Home Affairs and Counter- intelligent policies, particularly around early Terrorism and has worked in his party Whips office. intervention. That is where there is going to be a He has also been a member of the House of significant focus on the social justice side. Our work Commons Environment, Transport and Regional on early intervention should not be seen as separate, Affairs Select Committee. in that sense, from the work we are doing with In his current post at the Ministry of Justice, he is payment by results as part of the rehabilitation responsible for prisons and probation, youth justice, revolution. criminal law and sentencing policy and criminal justice. JB: To what degree do you think it will be JB: How do you regard our relatively high possible to achieve a ‘rehabilitation revolution’, national imprisonment rate? significantly reducing reoffending, given the CB: It is evidence of failure. First the level of current squeeze on resources? crime is too high and we have failed to address that CB: We have to because the position we are in as a society. Second, we have a high number of now is not acceptable. We have to find a way of people circulating around our system as short-term doing it despite the squeeze on resources. There are prisoners where their rate of reoffending is twice as two principal ways in which that will happen. The high as those serving community sentences. This is first is what the state does. We need to get much evidence of our failure to effect rehabilitation. cleverer about how we deliver our services as a JB: How likely do you think it is that this government. That is principally through locally rate will be reduced? How desirable do you delivered services and locally delivered interventions think this is? to offenders. It is about getting all services, whether CB: The job of the Ministry of Justice is to that be local authorities or health services, delivered incarcerate those who are sentenced to more effectively. They need to be more co-ordinated imprisonment by the courts and we cannot and delivered together. We as the state need to do completely predict that. What we have done is make what we do better. There are some good examples to assumptions about the future direction of policy, in build upon such as what has taken place in particular reforms that will be presented to Manchester where local authorities have got out of Parliament in the Sentencing and Rehabilitation their silos in order to look at the overall objective. Green Paper later in the year. That has informed our The second element is that there is a large capacity in Spending Review bid and we have therefore made this country of groups and individuals who think it is an estimate that the prison population will be 3,000 the right thing to do to help rehabilitate offenders. fewer by the end of the Parliament. However, these We need to make sure that all of those people, in things are inevitably estimates. the voluntary and private sector, are engaged to help JB: Is Britain a broken society and to what us. If we do that we can then grow our capacity for degree do you think prisons can contribute rehabilitation. We have to do that because if we towards addressing social problems such as don’t grow our capacity for rehabilitation, then it poverty, unemployment, family breakdown and won’t work. anti-social behaviour?

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JB: How do you think the actual prisoner easy for the rest of society to help us with the task of experience has shifted in recent years? How is it rehabilitation then we won’t succeed. In that sense likely to change in the next few years? the big society is essential to what we are trying to CB: I sincerely hope that they will see an improving achieve. service in prisons as far as their futures are concerned. JB: Are there ways in which the charitable If we have prisons where they are more focussed on sector and citizens can make a new and different being a working environment and where their time is contribution to prisons and rehabilitation? being put to constructive use rather than simply CB: What will be definitively new is that we want occupied, then we will be better preparing prisoners for to achieve that through social investment and payment their life after prison and giving them a better chance of by results. That will be new. I am told that the being effective members of society. At the same time Peterborough model is the first of its kind in the world. we will be enabling interventions We will be looking to have a to be delivered to prisoners not whole number of pilots and only on release but also being If we have prisons pathfinders that draw on that prepared for release along the model when we publish the lines that we are seeing in the where they are Green Paper. We then want to pilot scheme at Peterborough. more focussed on learn the lessons from those JB: What do you regard as pilots and pathfinders. That is all the biggest problems in the being a working new. If we are able to actively prison system? engage the voluntary and CB: Delivering effective environment and charitable sector to be part of the rehabilitation and breaking the where their time is suite of interventions that every cycle of reoffending. individual needs in order to turn JB: What are the major being put to their lives around, then we will obstacles to ? much more effectively deliver our CB: Silos. It goes back to the constructive use rehabilitation objective. issue of growing capacity. We rather than simply JB: In relation to payment have to incentivise people to by results, one of the work together in the wider occupied, then we questions raised by the Young interests of successful will be better Foundation, who developed rehabilitation. For example you the concept of social impact have to make the Housing Officer preparing prisoners bonds, was whether there is of a local authority, who is under actually a market for these? no statutory obligation since a for their life after Whilst there are people prisoner makes himself homeless prison and giving interested in investing in a by getting himself imprisoned, to pilot, is there enough of a play his part in the wider agenda them a better market to cover 140 prisons? of rehabilitating that individual. chance of being CB: I hope we are going to That is an example but it applies find out what the size of the to every other service delivered to effective members market is. One of the particular an offender. We work too much challenges to us is to get the in silos and we don’t bring of society. economic modelling right, together our services to effect a looking at what we are going to rehabilitation. pay against. If we can get this JB: How do you see the idea of ‘The Big right then everybody wins. Society’ impacting on prisons? JB: Prisons have an extensive system of CB: The rehabilitation revolution will be an early managerial monitoring and regulation, including demonstration of how effective the big society can key performance targets, audits, inspection and be. There are so many people that want to get surveys of staff and prisoners. Is this affordable or engaged with the Ministry of Justice, the Prison necessary? Should prisons be the subject of Service and the Probation Service to help us in the deregulation? rehabilitation of offenders. If we can make a success CB: The general direction of travel of the new of that, by making it easy for people to help us and administration is to trust professionals, localise and over time grow that capacity, then that will be an reduce the burden of inspection and audit. Having said active demonstration of the big society. If we don’t that, prisons will always be a particular area where you change our systems and incentives in order to make it would want a level of inspection and oversight because

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you do have people deprived of their liberty in closed CB: No one in the public sector is immune from institutions. this and everyone is going to be treated in the same JB: What role should the commercial sector way. There is nothing here that distinguishes the Prison have in imprisonment? Should they run prisons? Service from other parts of the public sector. Should they provide rehabilitation services? JB: How do you think industrial relations in Should they provide support services? prisons are likely to develop over the next four CB: We now have a mixed economy and there is years? no suggestion that is going to change. CB: I hope they will develop constructively. Being JB: Do you see an expanding role for the faced with a particular challenge, I was pleased to see commercial sector? the POA recognise that in a response they made to the CB: We are not in a position except to extract the Spending Review and I hope we can go on and best value for money for the taxpayer so in the end the maintain a constructive engagement in order to ensure key judgements will be around how we can deliver the that we all achieve what we would like. services we have to in the most efficient way. JB: Do you think that is how it is likely to JB: To what extent do you think private sector develop over the next four years, more competition has altered the terrain of constructive engagement? imprisonment? CB: I certainly hope so. CB: The evidence seems to be that it appears to JB: How should prison professionals make have raised the game of the public sector, in particular their voices heard in the current debates about in terms of the public sector’s own economic prisons and imprisonment? Is anyone listening? efficiency. CB: I am certainly listening. I engage on a regular JB: There are plans to freeze public sector pay basis with the trade unions but there are a number of and make fundamental changes to pensions and different professional representative bodies to which employee benefits. What impact is this likely to people belong. I am also conscious that carrying all of have on existing prison staff and for the future the people that work in the Prison Service with us is workforce? very important.

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Interview: Juliet Lyon Juliet Lyon is Director of the . She is interviewed by Martin Kettle who works in HM Inspectorate of Prisons.

Juliet Lyon CBE is director of the Prison Reform and former prisoners, backed by Friends Provident Trust, secretary general of Penal Reform Foundation. Considerable new work on resettlement, International and a Women’s National ‘Out for Good’, is underway supported by the Pilgrim Commissioner. Recently she acted as an Trust. independent member of Baroness Corston’s review Previously Juliet was associate director of Trust for of vulnerable women and Lord Bradley’s review of the Study of Adolescence. On commission to the Prison people with mental health problems and learning Service and the Youth Justice Board, she directed the disabilities in the criminal justice system. Juliet team that produced the first specialist training for staff represents the Prison Reform Trust as independent working with young people and with women in custody. member of the Ministerial Board on Deaths in She worked for fifteen years in mental health, managing Custody. She is a vice president of the British Richmond Fellowship therapeutic communities, and in Association of Counselling and Pschotherapy education as head of a psychiatric unit school. She acted (BACP). Juliet writes an online column for The as independent advisor to, amongst others, ChildLine, Guardian’s ‘comment is free’ and regularly the Social Exclusion Unit and the Halliday review of the broadcasts and contributes articles on criminal and sentencing framework. social justice. For reports, publications and further information The Prison Reform Trust is a leading independent visit www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk charity working to create a just, humane and effective MK: How do you regard our relatively high penal system. is its president. The Prison national imprisonment rate? Reform Trust produces information, conducts applied JL: I think it’s a matter of national shame. You look research, effects policy leverage and promotes to the prisons, the size of the population and the state community solutions to crime. Supported by the Barrow of the prisons, as a barometer of how civilised a society Cadbury Trust, it provides the secretariat to the All Party we are, and I don’t think we look good, especially Parliamentary Penal Affairs Group with a wide compared to our western European neighbours. It’s far membership of 96 MPs and 93 Peers. The Prison Reform too high. Trust’s advice and information service, supported by the MK: How likely do you think it is that this rate Hadley Trust, responds to 6,500 inquiries from prisoners will be reduced? How desirable do you think this and their families each year. is? Although still a small organisation, the Prison JL: It is more likely to happen now than it was only Reform Trust has considerable reach and meets its a matter of a few months ago, because you’ve got the charitable objective of providing clear, accurate political leadership, and an apparent political will, to information on prisons and the justice system. make it happen. Without that, there is no prospect, Independent media monitors show widespread, because it is easy enough to talk the numbers up, but sustained print, electronic and broadcast coverage. The to drive them down, in a way that is acceptable to the Prison Reform Trust website hosts over 1,800 separate judiciary and respects their independence, is a much individual visits a day. Last year the site experienced harder task. considerable traffic with almost four million page views MK: Is Britain a broken society and to what recorded, The Bromley briefing prison factfile, a digest of degree do you think prisons can contribute up to date facts and figures, was downloaded over towards addressing social problems such as 16,000 times between January and November 2010. poverty, unemployment, family breakdown and Programmes of work, many with a focus on anti-social behaviour? vulnerable groups, include ‘No One Knows’, in JL: They can make a positive contribution, partnership with Mencap and Keyring, to identify, and balanced with negative factors which to some extent prompt a response to, the needs of people with learning have been caused by prison reforms. On the positive difficulties and disabilities in the criminal justice system; side, prisons can contain seriously violent offenders, ‘Out of Trouble’, supported by The Diana, Princess of and people can be confident that they will be held Memorial Fund, to reduce child and youth outside the immediate community for a period of time. imprisonment and ‘Time is Money’ a strategy with In terms of the societal issues — poverty, UNLOCK to reduce the financial exclusion of prisoners unemployment and so on — the best establishments

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are constantly working against the institutional tide. But reinvestment which the Justice Select Committee in the prison itself is bound to damage people’s prospective House of Commons has set out for us — the solutions employment, sever links with family, make the prospect won’t all lie in what can be achieved in prisons, there of safe housing less likely, and in general contribute to will be other departments called into play, and prisons an ever-growing army of former prisoners, homeless, could become less isolated and more effective as a jobless and likely to offend again. So some piecemeal result. improvements can have counterproductive effects, like MK: A bonus question — what do you think the NHS takeover of prison health — the net result in would be the best way of reducing the number of some parts of the country is that you are much more people in prison? likely to get a detox or drug treatment in prison than JL: The first thing is political leadership, which has you are in the community. This tends to encourage been absent in the past, and the explicit statement that courts, especially magistrates’ courts, to treat prisons as we need to do this, and this is why we need to do it — a sort of capacious social service, as treatment centres, an explanation to the public by the politicians. and that is desperate for the service and desperate for MK: The last time that was tried, the judges society. If prison is genuinely a got angry about it. punishment of last resort, then JL: Yes, but we are talking everything else flows from that now about a fantastic — you can focus on improving The worst of all opportunity. Labour had it — they the important things, healthcare worlds would be a came in with a tremendous and other services, but you don’t mandate, and I think they failed get caught up in having a range continuously rising in that they didn’t join up their of social solutions inserted into social justice with their criminal the prison system. prison population justice policies. But now there is MK: So do you think that and some failed another opportunity, with the there is an equation here, that coalition government, and with the better prisons become, attempts to improve an unusual degree of agreement the more sentencers will want regimes when there between all three political parties to send people there? in fact, that we need to take a JL: Well, that is the danger. are absolutely no more moderate approach to the And that is why you have to have use of imprisonment, to put it no that last resort principle resources in sight, in more strongly than that. So that is established firmly. Once it is, I am fact the cuts are how you start, and then we look very supportive of an at sentencing. We are going to environment that would be biting hard. have to look at the number of constructive and decent. But it mandatory sentences, we are isn’t ever going to be, nor should going to have to recalibrate it be, a substitute for social services or any of the other sentencing, we are going to have to work out how to services on that spectrum. trim back the ever-growing number of indefinite MK: To what degree do you think it will be sentences, as well as dealing with short sentences, and possible to achieve a ‘rehabilitation revolution’, also remands and recalls. Then you have to look at the significantly reducing reoffending, given the vulnerable groups — women, and children, and people current squeeze on resources? who are mentally ill — and work out ways of dealing JL: It is possible, but only if the first thing that Ken with them outside. Clarke has identified is successful, in that he said that MK: Would you abolish short sentences, or last time he was there were about IPPS? 44,000 people in prison, and today there are over JL: Both, or at least constrain their use significantly. 85,000; that he finds that quite astonishing, he MK: How do you think the actual prisoner challenges it and wants to cut costs by reducing prison experience has shifted in recent years? How is it numbers. If the Justice Secretary can succeed in that likely to change in the next few years? primary aim, then the rehabilitation revolution is JL: The decency agenda, the whole business of possible. The worst of all worlds would be a treating people like responsible citizens, has been continuously rising prison population and some failed effective. I don’t believe all prisons have reached those attempts to improve regimes when there are absolutely heights, but if you look at the inspectorate reports, you no resources in sight, in fact the cuts are biting hard. find that a number of individual establishments are The other thing about the rehabilitation revolution is improving, but you still notice that there isn’t enough that it has to be tied in to the concept of justice training. That emphasis on the tests of a healthy prison,

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all those things like no use of strip cells for people who of all the public services, are still the least visible and are suicidal, (almost) no slopping out, a different way of certainly the least connected. Despite the NOMS dealing with people, the Human Rights Act which got agenda; some establishments are still pretty isolated, rid of the governor having to act as judge and jury — all and the modern Prison Service has got to see more of those things are very significant and positive connection with other public services. differences. No strip searching for women is also an MK: What are the major obstacles to prison important next step. Where we are lagging behind is in reform? terms of family contact, and the prisoner thinking of JL: The first one is what we have talked about — him or herself as a person who will step outside the political will. It is not just about a straightforward prison — there is a lot more to be done on statement, but that needs to be backed by the political resettlement, in terms of financial inclusion as well as will and drive that makes everything change. That jobs and housing — helping people to get out of debt needs to be followed by a preparedness to reinvest rather than rack up more debt in prison is a major issue. money. And none of that is easy. Because the solutions And the last thing, and I think this is a really negative to prison reform lie in a range of departments — thing which has happened, is the whether it is Treasury, whether it introduction of much more is Health, whether it is the DWP uncertainty into the prison — we all know that working environment, because of the The Prison Service across departments is very introduction of indeterminate has accepted that a difficult, and always resisted. So sentences, and the high use of that is another obstacle to reform — this destabilises the high degree of at a national and local level, to situation, and makes it very hard work across boundaries. There is for prisoners to serve their time, overcrowding is an issue of public and judicial or survive their time. normal, and seems confidence, but that stems from MK: How likely is it that that political drive that explains to the improvements will be to see it as a luxury the people why it would make us maintained in the future, to reduce the a safer society if we had a good looking to the spending last-resort prison system in place. review and beyond? numbers to a level MK: How do you see the JL: Given the leadership and idea of ‘The Big Society’ the experience of staff, people which would make impacting on prisons? will be very reluctant to let it slip the establishment JL: It is a phrase that needs back. There is always a problem quite a bit of unpacking — that prisons have a default to more workable. people still put it in inverted providing the bare minimum; but commas; but it does have I think a lot of it isn’t about relevance, and has had for some resources, it is about attitudes and behaviour, and time, to prisons in a couple of ways. Firstly a number of management. prisoners work as ‘citizens behind bars’ — the MK: What do you regard as the biggest Samaritan Listeners are prime examples where prisoners problems in the prison system? really go the distance to help other people in distress. JL: We have just talked about one of the biggest They obviously gain from that themselves as well. There problems, which is the explosion in indeterminate are also opportunities for volunteering, for prisoner sentencing. And I didn’t even put it first on my list, but councils, which have expanded a bit in recent times. overcrowding is still a big problem — and it has become The other aspect of the big society which we have seen almost institutionalised. We now take operational is the engagement of the voluntary sector, both on a capacity — the figure with overcrowding built in — as very small scale, with local churches for example, and at a measure of whether a prison is full, whereas the the level of national players, in relation to resettlement. certified normal accommodation is what we should be There are a lot of people who either are paid or talking about. The Prison Service has accepted that a volunteer to work to resettle people and to work on high degree of overcrowding is normal, and seems to the preventative side as well. see it as a luxury to reduce the numbers to a level which MK: Are there ways in which the charitable would make the establishment more workable. The sector and citizens can make a new and different other thing is the over-representation of black and contribution to prisons and rehabilitation? minority ethnic groups — which is hard for the JL: I am hugely impressed by the WI ‘Care not prisoners themselves, for their families, and indeed for Custody’ campaign because there are a lot of services staff. And I suppose the last problem is that prisons, out we can point to with possibilities for change, but this is

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the largest women’s organisation in the country, and Ombudsman, IMB’s, or independent groups such as the this campaign was inspired by the tragic death of the Prison Reform Trust; because prisons have that capacity son of one of their members who killed himself in to default back to something that would not be at all Manchester prison, a young man who was seriously acceptable. mentally ill. The WI is a remarkably democratic MK: So you think the ‘bonfire of the quangos’ organisation; so from one member, one woman in a shouldn’t touch prisons? small Norfolk village, through the region, to the JL: Everyone has to take some degree of hit, but I national level, eventually the motion is voted in by over would be very anxious if we thought we could just say 6000 members, who decide that they will have a ‘Get on with it, folks’ because I don’t think that would campaign called ‘Care not Custody’, and they decide to work at all, not because the will wasn’t there, but do their absolute best to change because the nature of the that unacceptable face of population, and the nature of prisons, and they are doing it in a There has been a some of those who gravitate very grassroots way. Their latest towards working in prisons, it will plan is to have people go into terrific history of always need to have that external school to ask headteachers ‘Do groups supporting regulation. you have enough support for MK: What role should the vulnerable pupils?’. They are people in prison, commercial sector have in going into police stations to ask imprisonment? whether they have facilities for faith groups JL: The latest comments diversion mental health praying for people from the Secretary of State about assessments. They are going to private sector involvement in go into courts and ask the same in prison, but less providing jobs and sort of questions. They are going apprenticeships for prisoners are to inform their local councillors, evidence of civil really to be commended, and it is their local MP. They are a society groups something the CBI have been formidable group and they are signed up to for some time. going to be backed by such wanting to change Employers can provide that organisations such as ourselves, things and saying second chance and engage on other penal affairs groups, all the that level, On the other side, mental health charities. That’s an ‘This simply isn’t where private sector companies example of how other civic are engaged in running prisons, society groups can engage with acceptable, we’re we have to be wary, we have to this agenda and help to achieve going to make a ask questions about vested social change. I think that’s interest. It is a good business markedly different. There has difference.’ ethic to grow the market, and been a terrific history of groups from the Prison Reform Trust’s supporting people in prison, faith perspective we would like to see groups praying for people in prison, but less evidence of the market for imprisonment shrink. Quite reasonably civil society groups wanting to change things and we look to international examples to see what saying ‘This simply isn’t acceptable, we’re going to happens, to see where there might be benefits, but also make a difference.’ some of the disadvantages. MK: Prisons have an extensive system of MK: You mean America? managerial monitoring and regulation, including JL: Well, we hold proportionately more people in key performance targets, audits, inspection and private hands here than in the States, but yes, we can surveys of staff and prisoners. Is this affordable or learn something from there, and also from some necessary? Should prisons be the subject of developing countries. deregulation? MK: To what extent do you think private JL: Given the nature of prisons, it is absurd to talk sector competition has altered the terrain of about deregulation, especially when we have just imprisonment? signed up to the UN Optional Protocol. In fact we are JL: It would be foolish to deny that it has and it has tied in to regulation, and seen as leaders in that field, so to some extent done what that experiment was that the Foreign Office and the British Council are designed to do, which was show that things could be constantly bringing delegations over to learn about the done differently, to introduce an element of concentric circles that very carefully surround our competition. I’d be sorry if it was the only way to bring prisons, whether it is the Inspectorate, the pressure to bear on the public service to manage

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prisons excellently. That is a blunt instrument — to tell JL: I should think they are going to be pretty people ‘if you don’t do this you will be privatised’. There bumpy. In the past the POA has worked closely with the must be better ways of improving management and TUC, and that is a very sensible approach, because the staff than by just threatening them. It has shown that Prison Service needs a modern negotiating union; and not being hidebound by what were at one time quite the emphasis that the TUC has on that style of restrictive practices has helped but it has also shown us negotiation is important. It would be a great pity if the that you can cut corners, and that that has not had POA were backed into a corner where they felt that the particularly good results. If you look at some of the tests only way they could operate was by threatening. And if of performance, you see that some private prisons management in the Prison Service was backed into the which started well have fallen back now. When we talk respective other corner, so that they felt the only way to prisoners, and we run an advice service which they could react was by threatening. Whether by responds to about 6,500 enquiries a year, some will say privatisation or by clamping down on people in terms that they like being treated with of strikes or no strikes, then the more respect, or having more net result would be that prisoners freedom; but others will say that In future you want themselves would suffer and so the staff are less experienced and would their families, because that the prison is not a safe place. the very best people there would be even less time out I don’t want to be doctrinaire, it both governing of cell, even less contact with is important to acknowledge families, and all of that really good practice, but it is equally prisons and working matters. important that we raise questions MK: How should prison about whether this is the right in them: it is one of professionals make their approach, what are the the hardest public voices heard in the current downsides, whether this is the debates about prisons and right direction to travel. service jobs you imprisonment? Is anyone MK: There are plans to listening? freeze public sector pay and could imagine, with JL: When I arrived at PRT, make fundamental changes to the least visibility. Douglas Hurd was our chair, now pensions and employee our President. At one point he benefits. What impact is this People aren’t always said to me that he felt a likely to have on existing proud to say where barometer of the health of the prison staff and for the future prison system, and indeed of a workforce? they work. well-balanced debate, was JL: It is going to be very hearing directly from prison difficult for everyone in the public governors and prison staff, or in sector. We are talking just before the Comprehensive the case of police from police chiefs and so on; that Spending Review, but there will be a chill wind blowing, actually you do need to hear from the people who are and we could lose some seriously experienced and wise there doing the work. I think that is true. The public people who will exit either to ensure they get a decent really do take account of what people who work in the settlement or just because they cannot exist in this new system say. That is why it is a good thing that climate. In future you want the very best people both apparently there is a slight lessening of pressure not to governing prisons and working in them: it is one of the speak out. There are restrictions on the civil service hardest public service jobs you could imagine, with the anyway, but it is noticeable under the new least visibility. People aren’t always proud to say where management (and this was true from when Jack Straw they work. If you look at the MORI polls on people’s came in, but certainly under the coalition government) view of their own work, the Prison Service comes very that there is less pressure on people to avoid media low, compared to police or firefighters. There is a interviews, and more encouragement for them to potential for loss here, because if you are trying to engage. That is very good, because unless you get the attract the best people, it is not all about money, but debate informed by people who are actually working in money and conditions count. and running prisons, and indeed prisoners themselves MK: How do you think industrial relations in and their families, then you get a very lop-sided debate. prisons are likely to develop over the next four So yes, people are listening, and the more that prison years? people join in, the better.

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Interview: Nick Hardwick Nick Hardwick is HM Chief Inspector of Prisons. He is interviewed by Jamie Bennett who is Governor of HMP Morton Hall.

Nick Hardwick began work as Her Majesty’s Chief NH: It is certainly desirable to reduce it. It has been Inspector of Prisons in July 2010. He was striking how consistent Ministers have been in their previously the first Chair of the Independent stated desire to reduce it. The targets are not Police Complaints Commission from 2003 to 2010. particularly ambitious; they are talking about getting His earlier career was in the voluntary sector, the numbers down to 82,000. However, getting things where he began working with young offenders going in the right direction is welcome. Clearly there is for NACRO. From 1986 to 1995 he worked as Chief a difficulty as the increase comes largely from people Executive of Centrepoint, a charity and housing getting longer sentences for serious offences, rather association for young homeless people. In 1992 than an increase in people serving short sentences. he was seconded to the Department of Therefore it is politically difficult to reduce it quickly Environment to work as a special adviser to the without releasing people before they have served the then Housing Minister, Sir George Young Bt. MP. sentence imposed by the courts. He was the Chief Executive of the Refugee Council The other issue also arose in my previous job in from 1995 to 2003. charge of the Independent Police Complaints Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Prisons for Commission. Contrary to popular belief, most people and Wales is an independent inspectorate which complained about the police because they had been reports on conditions for and treatment of those in the victims of crime and they didn’t feel that the police prison, young offender institutions and immigration or the criminal justice system more widely had dealt facilities. HM Chief Inspector of Prisons is effectively with the crime against them. That didn’t appointed from outside the Prison Service, for a term of necessarily mean that they were vengeful but they did five years. The Chief Inspector reports to Ministers on want an effective recognition of the wrong that had the treatment of prisoners and conditions in prisons in been done to them. Part of the challenge of getting the England and Wales. number of people in prison down is making sure that The Prisons Inspectorate also has statutory there are credible alternatives that victims can see as a responsibility to inspect all immigration removal centres proper acknowledgement of what has happened to and holding facilities. In addition, HM Chief Inspector of them. Prisons is invited to inspect the Military Corrective JB: What about quantum or scale? What do Training Centre in Colchester, prisons in Northern you believe would be an appropriate prison Ireland, the Channel Islands and Isle of Man. population? JB: How do you regard our relatively high NH: It is difficult to put a number on it but what I national imprisonment rate? would like to see is a steady decline rather than a steady NH: I have the same reaction to it as Ministers have build up. There is not a right number here but we ought had coming into their role. I began my working life back to be looking for a consistent reduction over time. in the 1980s working with young offenders for NACRO. JB: Is Britain a broken society and to what I remember at that time people were worried that the degree do you think prisons can contribute imprisonment rate was getting close to 40,000. Then towards addressing social problems such as you go away and you do other things and although you poverty, unemployment, family breakdown and keep a reasonable lay interest, you come back and anti-social behaviour? discover to your surprise that the imprisonment rate has NH: No, I do not think Britain is a broken society. more than doubled. The same as Ken Clarke said: how We are a fortunate society as a whole and shouldn’t can this be the case? It can’t be that suddenly everyone grumble. However, some people have limited life has got much worse and it doesn’t seem to me that by opportunities and huge difficulties to overcome. The locking up more people that we feel any safer. It is a reality is that in most cases prison does not help people problem and it has got out of control. Apart from those to overcome those difficulties. If anything for the arguments, we can’t afford it. prisoner and the people left behind, in most cases it JB: How likely do you think it is that this rate makes things worse. Some people lose their jobs or will be reduced? How desirable do you think this some people go into prison without a drug problem is? and come out with one. Having said all of that, for

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some people prison can offer an opportunity for some would be counterproductive. There is also a risk that stability to sort themselves out. In my opinion, prisons some of the smaller initiatives that create improvements have to be more ambitious, it is not enough to punish for prisoners will be the first ones to be squeezed, so people and keep them secure and safe in decent the regime will become more harsh and less productive. conditions. That is the baseline, the minimum that is This is a risk and countervailing pressure to the pressure required. Prisons have to be more focussed on reducing to improve regimes and reduce reoffending. We do not the risk of people reoffending when they leave. That know how that balance will be struck and that is a does not mean that you can do that in every case or challenging problem. even in most cases, but you can reduce the rate at JB: What do you regard as the biggest which people reoffend when they leave. That requires problems in the prison system? prisons to focus more single-mindedly on overcoming NH: There are three. I do not claim any fantastic the problems that prevent that. We could do more than insights and I will probably say what everyone else is being done at the moment. would say. First, prisons are being used as warehouses JB: To what degree do you think it will be for people with multiple problems of which criminality possible to achieve a is a symptom rather than a cause. ‘rehabilitation revolution’, We are locking up too many of significantly reducing the mad and the sad as well as reoffending, given the current We are locking up the bad. Prisons have to deal with squeeze on resources? complex social problems without NH: I’m cautious about too many of the having the resources or being the terms like ‘revolution’ but I mad and the sad as right places to do that. understand the government’s That job is made more point about focussing on this well as the bad. difficult by a media culture that issue. My impression coming into Prisons have to deal does not necessarily reflect wider this new is that there needs to be public opinion and is not willing a fundamental rethink in with complex social to engage in a meaningful attitudes towards rehabilitation. discussion of the issues. One of It needs to be pushed further up problems without the interesting experiences I have the agenda. I believe that we can having the had is that when I speak to my reduce the rate at which people friends and family about the fact reoffend. What is interesting resources or being that I visit and walk freely around about the Peterborough Project is the right places to prisons, is that one of their first that it is realistic, what they reactions is ‘aren’t you scared?’ recognise is that for some people do that. They are reasonable people and it is about reoffending less often what that means is that they and less seriously. You can reduce believe that prisons are mainly full the rate of reoffending and in the current climate that of violent people that need to be locked away to keep is also an economic necessity. If we can do that it will the public safe. The idea that I can walk around a prison reduce costs. It is not necessarily easy but we have to does not fit with that image. That is revealing to me. redouble our efforts in that area. On a more practical level, whilst I knew JB: How do you think the actual prisoner intellectually that drugs were a big problem in prisons, experience has shifted in recent years? How is it seeing it is something different. I have been struck by likely to change in the next few years? the extent to which some of the prisons I have been NH: It is difficult to make comparisons being new into are dominated by drugs –— searching is about in the role, but if you asked inspectors, they would say drugs, safety of prisoners is about drugs, vulnerable that on the whole prisons have improved and that prisoners is about drugs, control is about drugs, would tend to be the evidence from our inspection rehabilitation is about drugs. It dominates the process. That does not mean to say there are not areas discussion that is happening in the prison. We were in where there are significant problems but overall there a prison recently where in the surveys, 31 per cent of has been an improvement in safety and the physical prisoners told us it was easy to get drugs and 17 per conditions in which people are held. One of my cent said that they developed a drug problem in prison. concerns is that changes to reduce reoffending and You think these places have got great walls around reduce the prison population will take time to happen them with barbed wire on top, how can that be? I’m and the money will reduce more quickly than the not saying anything silly like people let drugs get in so numbers do, and as a consequence there is a risk that as to keep prisoners quiet, but there is an element that people will spend longer locked in their cells. That people who work in that situation get used to it. When

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you come into it fresh it strikes me as extraordinary. professionals, there is a role for a range of Whilst I am sympathetic to the task prisons have, the organisations out there to get involved and I hope that fact that so many people develop a drug problem in they have an opportunity to do that. there is intolerable. JB: Prisons have an extensive system of JB: What are the major obstacles to prison managerial monitoring and regulation, including reform? key performance targets, audits, inspection and NH: They are the other side of what I have said. surveys of staff and prisoners. Is this affordable Some of what needs to happen in order to reform or necessary? Should prisons be the subject of prisons needs to take place outside of prisons. Prisons deregulation? will end up warehousing these people with multiple NH: I have spent most of my working life being needs if there are not resources in the community to subject of those measures rather than providing them. deal with them. A lot of the My view would be that you have pressure to put more people in to keep that constantly under prison comes from the media review and ensure that it is and with the drug issue prisons Some of what proportionate to what is are often dealing with problems needs to happen in happening. Anyone who is imported from outside. The involved in the running of squeeze that is happening in order to reform prisons and is thoughtful about prisons as in other parts of the it knows that prisons are behind public services will be hard and prisons needs to walls and out of the public gaze will make things more difficult. take place outside and there needs to be scrutiny. The only way to respond is to try That should be a positive for to free up prisons to be more of prisons. Prisons prisons. One of the issues my innovative in their responses to predecessor, Anne Owers, talked issues You do see that some will end up about was the ‘virtual prison’ – prisons, in particular some warehousing these — there is the prison the private sector prisons are governor thinks he or she is innovative in responding to the people with running and then there is what challenges they face. It does not multiple needs if actually is happening and have to be that private sector sometimes those two things do prisons can do that but public there are not not fit. That can happen in any cannot, we have to find ways of organisation but it prisons it is enabling public sector prisons to resources in the more problematic. An inspection be more innovative in their community to deal coming in with a fresh look responses to the problems they should be seen as a positive. In face. We have to be careful that with them. reality nobody jumps for joy we do not stifle that ability to when inspectors arrive but innovate. people are in general positive in JB: How do you see the idea of ‘The Big their reaction to us. Society’ impacting on prisons? JB: What role should the commercial sector NH: There is an issue about understanding what have in imprisonment? Should they run prisons? the ‘Big Society’ is. If the ‘Big Society’ means not Should they provide rehabilitation services? everything being done by the state but also by Should they provide support services? communities and members of society having a role in NH: I do not have a view about them being good prisons, then that is a good thing. You can see that or bad. On the whole a mixed economy is a good already in prisons. IMBs are a good resource that are thing. I would judge each individual case on its merits. not valued enough. It is a good thing that members of I would not say that the public or private sector is the community come into prisons on a regular basis better or worse, I would look at what was happening and take some responsibility for what is happening in an individual institution or a bid that they made in there. There are ways in which business can be a competitive process, and make a judgement on the involved in providing employment and training for merits. The issue is not who is providing the facility, people. There are small voluntary projects that risk the issue is whether there is adequate control of that. being squeezed out in the cuts. These help not only by Ultimately it may be a private provider but the state creating a positive environment inside the prison but has to be accountable for what happens. In the end also help to educate the public outside about what is there has to be a direct and clear line of accountability, going on. Prisons should not just be left to the whoever is running the service.

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JB: To what extent do you think private difficult thing to do. We need to do more and that is sector competition has altered the terrain of one of the roles of the Inspectorate, to answer some imprisonment? of the concerns that people outside have had and try NH: It is true to say that some private sector to explain what is really happening. That is of course providers have been innovative and that has been a difficult in the media climate I have discussed, but it spur for change within the public sector. Overall the needs to be done. It is not about banging an introduction of the private sector into prisons has ideological drum, but we should be saying that if been good because it has stimulated providers as a there is to be a debate about what prison is for, whole to look at what they do and how it can be rehabilitation, numbers and so on, then that debate improved and made more effective. ought to be informed by the facts of what is going JB: There are plans to freeze public sector on. Prison professionals have a responsibility to get pay and make fundamental changes to pensions those facts over. and employee benefits. What impact is this likely JB: What do you see as the role of the to have on existing prison Inspectorate over the coming staff and for the future five years when financial workforce? pressure will be at its most NH: These are going to be Overall the intense and reform will be at difficult times for everybody introduction of the its fastest pace? who works in the public sector. NH: Part of our job is to It doesn’t seem to me that private sector into explain what is happening and prisons are being singled out. why, so we have to be an There is a broader social and prisons has been independent and trusted voice economic argument about the good because it has that is reporting back to the pace and scale of change but public about what is being done that is outside of my remit. stimulated providers in their name. We are going to JB: How do you think make some changes in how we industrial relations in prisons as a whole to look operate. I want to move to a are likely to develop over the at what they do and system where rather than next four years? making a large number of NH: It is a concern. My how it can be detailed recommendations impression coming in is that improved and made about what should be some of the IR feels old- happening, we focus on the fashioned and confrontational. more effective. outcomes we expect to see and On the one hand, in hierarchical expecting more from prisons in and status conscious saying how they will meet those. organisations, the way that staff are engaged and This pushes more of the responsibility for determining consulted and their expertise tapped into is not done the improvements that are necessary will be made effectively. On the other hand that leads to a situation onto prisons rather than us mapping them in detail where the responses are adversarial. It strikes me as for them. old-fashioned. JB: Should the Inspectorate Expectations be JB: How should prison professionals make altered to take account of the financial pressures their voices heard in the current debates about facing prisons and the country more broadly? prisons and imprisonment? Is anyone listening? NH: We should not alter them by saying that we NH: They do have to make their voice heard. expect the outcomes for prisoners to be reduced. It is With any profession it is easy to fall into debating the not politically controversial to say that prisoners finer points of theoretical detail with people who should continue to be safe, that prisons should be basically agree rather than going out and explaining decent, and should give prisoners purposeful activity to the public or people that do not agree with you. and help them resettle. We should not decrease our The prison world has not done a good job in expectations for outcomes for prisoners at all. explaining what really happens in prison, what it is like However, we should be less prescriptive about how and what the issues are. I am not saying that is not a those outcomes should be achieved.

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Interview: Richard Garside Richard Garside is Director of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies. He is interviewed by Christopher Stacey, Information and Advice Manager at UNLOCK, the National Association of Reformed Offenders.

Richard Garside has been the Director of the just sheer need, which I think is quite concerning. At Centre for Crime and Justice Studies (CCJS) since the end of the day if you are incarcerating people who 2006, having previously been the director of the are either very mentally distressed going into custody or Crime and Society Foundation and head of become very mentally distressed as a result of being in communications at Nacro, the crime reduction custody, one has to questions about how you square charity. that with notions of a civilised society. The Centre for Crime and Justice Studies is an CS: Where do you think the Labour independent public interest charity that engages with Government went wrong? the worlds of research and policy, practice and RG: Well, it depends at what level of abstraction campaigning. Its mission is to inspire enduring change you are exploring. You have the surface level stuff that by promoting understanding of social harm, the was going on, so all the tough talk, all the populism, a centrality of social justice and the limits of criminal set of legislative changes that increased the number of justice. Its vision is of a society in which everyone offences, and a general inflation of sentencing, benefits from equality, safety, social and economic including a displacement of fines to community security. In 2010 they have published Criminal Justice sentences, community sentences onto prison, and so Spending Briefs, as a series of three publications. Police on and so forth. Then there is the underlying set of Expenditure, and Prisons and Probation Expenditure, policies that they were pursuing at a broader social, were published in mid-2010, with the Courts economic and political level, that fed in to and was Expenditure publication forthcoming. related to those surface-level changes, and you need to He has written on a range of crime and criminal- look at both of those to really get a full picture as to justice issues. He is a regular media commentator on a where they went wrong. range of crime and related issues, as well as giving CS: How likely do you think it is that this rate speeches and participating in conferences and debates. will be reduced? How desirable do you think this His current interests centre on questions of crime, harm is? and political economy. RG: Well, it is certainly desirable. If you assume CS: How do you regard our relatively high that prison should be used firstly as a last resort, and national imprisonment rate? secondly that you should only be putting in prison those RG: Crispin Blunt, when he gave his speech back in who pose a significant risk to others, then I think all the July, described the current prison population as a logic of that position would point to a much lower national embarrassment, which is certainly one way of prison population than we currently have. And given describing it. I might be stronger in saying that it is a that at least some of those people who pose a risk are national disgrace, but I don’t think that anybody other also themselves often quite mentally distressed, and than those who are relatively fringe in their political have all sorts of personal problems that partly led them beliefs think that having such a high imprisonment rate to commit the very serious offences that they did, one is desirable aim in itself. The question is how you best has to ask whether incarcerating them is the right thing address that problem. The problem with such a high given the context of their lives. How likely is it? I don’t rate is that it is quite costly, and if you are incarcerating think it is very likely at all. Even when you look at some people and warehousing people who really don’t pose the recent pronouncements of government ministers, a threat to anybody including to themselves, then why which are in many ways very much welcome in terms of do it? As Ken Clarke pointed out in his speech in late rhetoric and change of tone, no government minister is June that we hosted, it is about double what it was committing themselves to an active programme of when he was last Home Secretary. The Conservatives reducing the prison population. Whilst I am sure they seemed to get through their last administration quite must be doing their own internal projections and comfortably on a much lower prison population, so one analyses, I think the general trajectory will be upwards, has to ask the question what is that significantly higher and will be upwards for some years to come. In some rate really delivering in terms of social benefit, and ways, it is a depressing view, but it is a realistic view. I obviously impact on individuals, and then of course you would be delighted to be proved wrong in that one. have the fundamental challenges about who is in Why it won’t happen depends on what you think prison, the enormous rates of mental health problems, prison is actually there for, and how people end up in

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prison. Of course, at one level, you generally have to do notion that prisons, and the use of imprisonment, can something that brings you to the attention of the be some kind of mechanism for improving the state of police, so at a certain level it is not like being in an society and in some way addressing deeply entrenched asylum or a mental health unit. At the end of the day, social problems just strikes me as a bizarre proposition. prisons are very socially selective. They tend to select It is difficult to see how taking certain individuals out of particular people who occupy certain socio-economic their day to day existence, putting them in a very positions in society. So the regulatory role that prison authoritarian and highly structured institution, where performs in terms of managing and controlling what there is lots of problems of bullying etc, taking them might be considered to be an ‘unruly’ or ‘undesirable’ away from their family, it is very difficult to see how population needs to be taken seriously. I put those that’s anything but a very negative way of trying to deal terms in scare-quotes because there is a certain degree with particular problems. of stereotyping that goes on there. If we look at it more CS: To what degree do you think it will be broadly, there is some quite significant research possible to achieve a ‘rehabilitation revolution’, evidence that points to the fact significantly reducing that the size of a prison reoffending, given the current population is related to the ... the notion that squeeze on resources? underlying social processes of any RG: It is interesting how the given society, and broadly prisons, and the use mood music has changed on this speaking more unequal societies of imprisonment, over the years. When Michael tend to have higher prison Howard back in the 1994 talked populations than more equal can be some kind of about ‘prison works’, he meant societies, and societies who mechanism for that it keeps these horrible invest more in their welfare and people away from law-abiding social support mechanisms improving the state citizens and stops them generally have lower prison committing more . But at populations than those who of society and in the time it was highly criticised invest less. Now we are going some way as a speech, and it is interesting into a period where we are now that even those who would probably going to see growth in addressing deeply consider themselves to be strong the rate of inequality, and also an reformists are engaged in a ongoing disinvestment in social entrenched social dialogue about making prison safety-nets, so it would be problems just strikes work. The proposition that if you strange if, as a result of those could just get it right, then it quite big social processes, we me as a bizarre would be possible to reform and saw a fall in the prison proposition. rehabilitate people, then they population. There is no iron law will come out of prison as here, of course, and it would be budding entrepreneurs, budding possible for a government to preside over these policies businessmen and women, and people wanting to go whilst also seeing a drop in the prison population. It just back to education I don’t find very realistic or likely. doesn’t strike me as being very likely. Clearly, you can think of individual cases, and there CS: Is Britain a broken society and to what will people who have been through the prison system degree do you think prisons can contribute who might come out the other end and may have towards addressing social problems such as learnt something. Maybe it is the first time that they poverty, unemployment, family breakdown and have had the chance to learn how to read and write, anti-social behaviour? or it is the first time they have come across anybody RG: Well, I don’t think Britain is a broken society. I who takes an interest in their lives and wants to help think that that was an election slogan, and it doesn’t them. So I am not dismissing that. Indeed, in one of strike me that the Prime Minister has been harking on our projects, the ‘Works for Freedom’ project, we are those terms since the election. It is an unfortunate way very interested in exploring those examples of of describing what are without doubt some really practices and interventions that can genuinely significant challenges. I don’t actually think that prisons transform people’s lives for the better. But, in the can make any significant contribution to addressing round, prisons are simply not equipped to deal with social problems. They do entrench social problems, but those big problems that people experience. People go I don’t think that is the fault of people in the Prison out in many cases with very much the same problems Service, who often do a very difficult job to the best of as when they went in. So, like ‘Broken society’, or ‘Big their abilities and in very difficult circumstances. But the Society’, ‘Rehabilitation Revolution’ is a slogan. I

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suspect there will be some examples, where maybe CS: What do you regard as the biggest the reconviction rate has been slightly reduced. problems in the prison system? Everyone will get excited about it, but in broad terms RG: There are a number of different dimensions. the general situation where roughly half the people Without doubt, there is a financial problem. The work leaving prison are reconvicted within two years I that we published a few months ago looking at prison suspect will continue. That is not necessarily because and probation expenditure made it very clear that prison they are bad people. It is to do with the system as a budgets have been very stretched, and over a period of whole. One of the innovations of the Labour years it has a corrosive effect. The infrastructure decays. Government was that the criminal justice system There is a major question about the role of the private process was much more tooled up to keep hold of, sector in terms of fragmentation, and what that means supervise and manage people, once they have left in terms of having a coherent policy around prisons, but prison as well. Broadly speaking if you monitor the sheer number of people is the problem. It is about somebody and watch them close enough for long time that we as a society had some discussions about enough, they are going to do something that they what size prison population we would feel is desirable or shouldn’t do. So, there are justifiable. Prisons end up trying to greater hurdles now for people pick the pieces up of the failings leaving prison to get away from in other areas. As we have seen in criminal justice surveillance, and It is about time that a general retraction of the social that is above all of the other we as a society had state over the last 20 years, the hurdles that they may face, demands placed on prison have whether it be finding a home, some discussions increased. Problems are not dealt getting a job, or just rebuilding about what size with at a earlier point, are greater, their lives. and I am sure that is one of the CS: How do you think the prison population contributors to the current prison actual prisoner experience has population. One of the problems shifted in recent years? How we would feel is at the moment is that the reform is it likely to change in the desirable or sector itself, in terms of its overall next few years? vision of how things could be RG: Now, I am not really the justifiable. Prisons different, has collapsed into a best person to ask that question end up trying to form of pragmatism, with a few as I am not particularly close to honourable exceptions. what goes on in prison these pick the pieces up Organisations that 10-20 years days. I don’t get to visit prisons ago may have been leading the very often, and CCJS do not get of the failings in charge in challenging ministers in particularly engaged in prison other areas. debates about the role of prison, reform questions. It is not in terms of what size it should be because we do not think they and so on, are now just scurrying are particularly important, it is just not where we see around for service-delivery contracts. Whilst I can we can have the biggest impact. I am sure some of the understand the pressures that they are under, it does problems around overcrowding can’t have helped the make me think that a number of those historically loud general experience. It is difficult to see how the voices are now much quieter than they used to be. But experience can be in any way improved, particularly in there has been a certain exhaustion of the reformist the context of squeezed finances, unless there were vision. It is still locked into certain propositions, such as simply fewer people in prison. For those who were we need more community sentences instead of prisons then no longer in prison, their experience will have being a classic of that, or community sentences need to improved, as well as for those who remain. Now, there be tough and rigorous in order for prisons to be used is one answer, which is to increase the level of staff, less. The world has changed an awful lot, including the increase resources and increase the budget, and that is drivers for the prison population and the sheer certainly an argument. But the more desirable expansion of the justice system. I don’t think many outcome would be to use the current period of engaged in these discussions have really looked at that, squeeze on budgets to actually start having an honest but have repeated some quite tired and unevidenced conversation about what the largest prison population propositions. is that we can realistically sustain within current CS: What are the major obstacles to prison budgets which is also in keeping with good practice in reform? what it means to be a civilised society, and use that as RG: To put it bluntly, I’m not myself particularly a base. interested in entering into dialogue about making

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prison work or to reform prisons. My own position is prisons, and I think we will see that in other areas, for that I am a long-term abolitionist. I don’t think it is example in the Probation Service, and in the whole possible to do away with prisons tomorrow, but I think ongoing development of commissioning and that the use of imprisonment as a mainstream response contestability, basically with third-sector partners to certain behaviours which are regarded as crime is a competing with Probation Service and the Prison relatively recent development, and something that Service for a slice of the cake. Given the pressure on developed as a result of the changes during the funding I can understand why there may be some kind industrial revolution. I can see that it is important at a of imperative to engage in that. But it is certainly not certain level, and if I were in prison I would want obligatory for them to be engaged in that. As individuals and organisations to be lobbying hard for somebody who has worked in a number of improvements in regimes and in changes in how I was organisations over the years, including those who to be dealt with, but it is not what I feel is have delivered front-line services, I have real concerns fundamentally at issue here. about the future of charitable independence, CS: How do you see the idea of ‘The Big especially those who become so dependent on Society’ impacting on prisons? government for the delivery of their charitable RG: Does anybody know objectives through what this Big Society really is? I commissioning and have never met the chap but I am There is a very contestability. They end up not even sure that becoming para-statal bodies, really knows, apart from it being active role in they are not really independent. an election-winning slogan. I will charities doing what That said, I think there are some take what I think is part of the real opportunities there as well. rhetoric, which is about the they have also done The time is rife for an ongoing development of a mixed engagement and discussion economy of provision. One way to which is helping about what makes genuinely for look at it is the ongoing reduction people — I just transformative practice. So if you of the monopoly that the Prison are talking about the kinds of Service has over the delivery of don’t think that individuals who often have custodial services, hence, the partnering the profound social personal needs, emergence of private providers. in many cases through no fault Now, of course, that is not linked criminal justice of their own, there is an to the Big Society, but alongside important role for active citizens that is a greater role for the system is the best in the third-sector to operate in voluntary sector and community way to do this. helping and supporting those groups, all somehow coming people, providing interventions together in a sense of a shared and support that genuinely endeavour to deliver on shared objectives and shared changes their lives. I am sceptical about the degree to aims. In all honesty this leaves me with a degree of which that can be achieved through the criminal depression. What it will bring out is not the wonderful justice process, and engaging with that process, activist society. It is cover for a fragmentation of what has because so much of the pressure is on the narrow historically been the role of the state. There are some terms of reducing re-offending. The historic charitable significant question-marks about whether something like vision of ‘looking after’ people and helping them is the delivery of punishment and the delivery of services profoundly alien in the criminal justice process. There incarcerating people should be outside the remit of a is a very active role in charities doing what they have democratically accountable state, and that is where some also done which is helping people — I just don’t think problems have arisen, for example with private sector that partnering the criminal justice system is the best prisons in terms of the accountability for the money way to do this. spent, and of officers working in those prisons, and CS: Prisons have an extensive system of likewise with the third sector. managerial monitoring and regulation, including CS: Are there ways in which the charitable key performance targets, audits, inspection and sector and citizens can make a new and different surveys of staff and prisoners. Is this affordable contribution to prisons and rehabilitation? or necessary? Should prisons be the subject of RG: There are certainly other ways in which the deregulation? government would like them to be involved. We have RG: Taking affordability first, the overall budget seen the emergence of partnerships between the for the prison system is around £3-4 billion. Given the voluntary sector and private providers in running overall budget deficit it is a tiny drop in the ocean. So,

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at one level, the current system is entirely affordable. some interesting things. I suppose where it has As one of the richest countries in the world, we could fundamentally altered the terrain is that it is only no doubt afford a much larger prison system were we because of the injection of private capital into the so minded, and perhaps that is where we are sadly prison system that we have been able to have the going. But the question is then what you can’t spend increase in prison population that we have had, money on, and I can certainly think of better ways of because it is only through private finance that has spending it than locking people up in prison. Given the allowed the government to keep all of this additional current financial pressures it seems to me unlikely that capital expenditure off the balance sheet. So, in that the prison system is affordable in its current structure. sense, the involvement of the private sector has been But that is true for the criminal justice system as a an entirely negative one. whole. CS: There are plans to freeze public sector pay As for all these targets, I am sure they must just and make fundamental changes to pensions and drive prison governors and staff to distraction. They employee benefits. What impact is this likely to must feel like they spend all their time filling out forms have on existing prison staff and for the future rather than be actually doing the work they would like workforce? to do. There is clearly a balance RG: I am sure it will have an to be struck. Prisons, like other impact. I expect the prison areas of public service, are in Given the current officers, including the POA, are receipt in public funds, and so very unhappy about the situation. there must be a degree of financial pressures it There is a lot of talk about a new accountability there. It is not winter of discontent. Prisons are obvious to me that filling out a seems to me an unusual bit of public services load of forms that have been unlikely that the in some way as the POA is not dreamt up by bureaucrats in officially recognised as a trade Whitehall is a particularly prison system is union, with rights, effective way of achieving that. affordable in its quite wrongly in my view. Leaving CS: What role should the that to one side I can’t imagine commercial sector have in current structure. working in prisons in a very nice imprisonment? place to be, and so I suspect there RG: I am not in favour of But that is true for will quite a lot of disruption, if not private prisons. If I were Minister the criminal justice in the walk out and strike version, of Justice, I would close all then there will be disruption of private prisons. In my view it is system as a whole. other sorts, which will have a very clear that the only social knock-on effect on prisoners. body that should be responsible CS: How do you think for the prison system is the state. I can see the role, industrial relations in prisons are likely to develop within a complex state bureaucracy, where all prisons over the next four years? are run by the state, then at a certain level, whether RG: I sometimes wonder whether, when you look cleaning, education, catering, building work, you can at the very ambivalent relationship between trade see all sorts of areas where it may be desirable or cost unions and the Labour Party, and because many effective to involve other providers. But in my view it thought they were on the same side, having a very needs to be under the very clear oversight and public dispute was quite difficult for many trade unions. accountability of the state, and that is not the case at Traditionally, Conservative governments and trade the moment. So, in answer to the question, my answer unions haven’t always seen eye to eye. Indeed, the last is a much smaller role to what it currently has. significant trade union conflict was in the mid-80 under CS: To what extent do you think private sector the Thatcher government. I am not sure that we will competition has altered the terrain of see something like that again. I think actually trade imprisonment? union rules have now changed such a degree that RG: It has altered it quite significantly. Those in makes that quite difficult, but I can’t see that industrial favour of private prisons would say it has forced the relations in prisons will improve as a result of increased Prison Service to up its game, that there are some very numbers in prison, squeezes in budgets, and struggling good private prisons doing some very good work. I am conditions. Who is going to go into work in a morning sure that may well be the case. Maybe that is simply with a spring in their step knowing that? So it is not saying new prison buildings are more pleasant that going to be pretty I suspect. Whether we will see the decrepit old Victorian buildings. Perhaps where you severe disruptions we have seen in previous decades is think about the architecture and design you can do another matter.

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CS: How should prison professionals make sense of what people are feeling, but whether their voices heard in the current debates about anything fundamentally changes as a result is another prisons and imprisonment? Is anyone listening? matter. RG: There are some real difficulties with prison As for prisoners giving their views, that is one of professionals, because it depends at what level you the great areas of discussion that is not had at all the are talking about. It won’t be particularly insightful moment. It happened in a small scale, such as the observation on my part to state the obvious that the ongoing debate around prisoners’ right to vote, PGA and the POA have not always seen eye to eye, which strikes me as almost so obvious that it still but it seems to me that they have a level of shared distresses and depresses me that it is not taken for interest in defending public services and working granted. But it needs to be much more than that. At towards achieving objectives. But I understand that the end of the day, if you have been put in prison it relationships in prison can often stop that activity does not or should not mean that you lose of all of from taking place. As for whether anybody is your rights. The Prison Service does not own you. You listening, well six months ago who would have said may be in prison, but you are still somebody with we would have a family, friends and aspirations, Conservative/Liberal Democrat with a past, a present and a coalition. Three months ago, The Prison Service future. Those things are very many would have expected an important. It is a disgrace that election early next year, or at does not own you. people in prison have so little least the following year. The voice and so little power to Coalition is looking quite You may be in express their desires, and their durable, though we are prison, but you are needs and their wants. But how beginning to see some of the you achieve that I don’t know, first cracks developing in a still somebody with because I think it would require number of different areas. family, friends and such a change in the way that When the Government becomes prisons operated that they much more entrenched and aspirations, with a would not be recognisable as embedded in, and what will be prisons anymore. Prisons are quite unpopular series of cuts, past, a present and very hierarchical, which can then an awful lot of tension will a future. Those affect everybody that is there; build up, and which might give both prisons and staff. If you are those working in the Prison things are very going to have a genuine Service who might want to prisoner voice, it would mean a articulate their views something important. very fundamental change to the to play for. The discussion way that prisons operate. around that will need to be led by the PGA and the CS: What current work are CCJS involved in? POA. In my view, the argument needs to be more RG: The Works for Freedom project is an online proactive than simply defending jobs, important resource for practitioners, to stimulate debate, though that may be. There needs to be something reflection and knowledge sharing, which will include about articulating and developing a vision for what people working in the criminal justice system but also kind of prison system we want; how large, what kind those working with those groups vulnerable to of people are in it, over that time, and what the steps capture by the process. We are doing a prison-based are to getting to it, which is not really being discussed project which will be talking to individuals who have at the moment. committed very serious violence acts, exploring their The great strength of any organised voice is that biographies to identify points in their lives as a way of they can claim to be a voice of many. When people recovering their sense of being real people. come together to represent a united position, they We are also doing a piece of work looking at can achieve things that people acting individually reformist strategies going forward, looking at the can’t achieve. So, some form of collective negotiation challenges that the reform sector face and how that and action is both desirable and necessary. But it is might relate to what the research evidence points to not the be all and end all. The challenge for any trade and explore where that may lead, in what is a very union is to try and democratically reflect the interests difficult time for reformism. of their members. There are other mechanisms, such We are also doing a new series of criminal justice as staff forums, but it is just not particularly obvious policies, first of which will be coming out early next to me necessarily that the management will listen. It year, and we’re finally just finishing the third of our can be useful way of testing the water, getting a series of criminal justice expenditure. We published

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one back in June on the Police, one on Prisons and from when the old asylums were closed, to children in Probation in July, and we’re just finishing the Courts care, to people coming out of the armed services, and briefing which will be published in the next few weeks. how that revolving door can be addressed. We are very interested in care-leavers entering We are also a membership organisation, so if any the criminal justice system, and whether their needs of your readers would like to join, we can offer a very are being met, that is why is there such a striking good rate. We also have a monthly email bulletin cohort of people who come out of care and spend a which is free and which, rather than just saying what year or two trying to making sense of their lives and we have done, it is about trying to take a sideways then end up in prison. That is part of a larger piece of glance at recent policy developments, including work which we are interested in which is about reports that have come out, and some important exploring and promoting debate on why it is that news stories, as well as the very popular ‘Quote of people seem to move around different institutions, the Month’.

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Interview: Michael Spurr Michael Spurr is Chief Executive of the National Offender Management Service.He is interviewed by Monica Lloyd who worked for many years in the prison inspectorate before rejoining NOMS in Headquarters to work with extremist offenders.

Michael Spurr joined the Prison Service in 1983, and that we work with them in prison in order to support after graduating from . He spent rehabilitation. We have to make sure that we manage a year as a at HMP Leeds before population pressures to enable us to work positively with starting his training as an assistant governor at HMP prisoners. Stanford Hill. He then held posts at HMP Swaleside ML: Do you see this rate coming down under and served as Deputy Governor of HMYOI the coalition government? Aylesbury before becoming Governor of Aylesbury MS: The Secretary of State has made it clear that we in 1993. Following this he took up an HQ post should look at the whole sentencing framework. He has managing the prisoner population and pointed out his surprise at coming back, having been responsibility for the Control Review Committee Home Secretary in the early 90s, to find that the prison system for managing disruptive prisoners that population has doubled, and there has been lots of resulted in the creation of the Close Supervision commentary on that. From an operational perspective it Centre system. In 1996 he became Governor of HMP has been a significant achievement to have managed Wayland, a category C training prison, and that huge growth in the population and improve the way subsequently he became Governor of HMP and YOI that we manage prisons, the way we treat prisoners and Norwich, a split site local and young offender the rehabilitation opportunities that we have given them. prison. In 2000 he was promoted to Area Manager I have already said we could do much more if the first for London North and East Anglia and then, population was more manageable and lower than it is following the restructuring to align Areas with now. Government Regions, for the Eastern Area. He ML: Do you think it is possible to deliver the became a Prison Service Management Board rehabilitation revolution given the constraints that member in 2003 as Director of Operations, are also upon us at this time? managing the area managers and responsible for all MS: It is refreshing that the coalition government prisons other than the high security and in has made a clear point about wanting to focus on December 2006, he became Deputy Director General rehabilitation. That is something that all of us who work of HM Prison Service. Following the reorganisation with offenders should be really pleased about. It is right of the National Offender Management Service that we are challenged about whether we can do more (NOMS) announced in January 2008, he took on the about rehabilitation. Re-offending rates have reduced in role of Chief Operating Officer, responsible for recent years and that has been a real achievement but, operational delivery across Prisons and Probation. when 61 per cent of people coming into custody serving In June 2010 he took on his current role as Chief sentences of less than twelve months re-offend quickly Executive of NOMS. when they go out, that can’t be a system that any of us This interview took place in the week in which the can be pleased with. Therefore it is the right challenge to government cuts were announced and not long after say can we do more. Of course, doing more when we the new Minister for Justice had announced his plans have resource constraints is going to be incredibly for a ‘rehabilitation revolution’. difficult and that is why the government has asked how ML: The population pressures now are not as can we do this differently? How can we energise severe as they were, but we still have a high different sectors of the community to work with us to national imprisonment rate. How big an issue is reduce re-offending? Can we get better engagement this for you? from the private sector, from the third sector? Can we MS: Ensuring we have got enough places to use mechanisms like payment by results? If we can get accommodate all the prisoners the courts send to us has these things working could they lead us to do the sorts of been a key pressure on the prison service over a number the things the Justice Select Committee has spoken of years. It is still important. It is true that at the moment about previously: re-investing away from custody into we have got more space than we have been used to but early intervention? That has got to be the right approach. to put that in context, we are still only talking about an There is a difficulty in how we deliver that in what is additional headroom of about 2,000 spaces with 85,000 going to be a really challenging financial time, but the prisoners. Our job is to make sure we accommodate ambition is a proper ambition, a good ambition and I’m prisoners sent to us from the courts in decent conditions pleased to have that as a focus to work on.

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ML: So you think there are ways that the We have tried to increasingly focus on individual charitable sector and citizens of this Big Society can need. Offender management is about what the make a contribution? individual prisoner actually requires to support them to MS: There has been a significant contribution change and reduce their re-offending. So the biggest already made by the third sector and voluntary sector change for me over the last ten or fifteen years has been partners over the last ten years or more. Prisons have about that individualisation. I accept that, particularly for changed enormously over that period, with a much short sentenced prisoners, this has been difficult as they greater engagement from a much wider range of people are in and out so quickly, and it is more difficult to get to from the community. We forget that ten, fifteen years know and deal with the person. But for longer term ago it wasn’t normal to have Job Centre Plus or third prisoners much more work is undertaken with them, on sector providers supporting offenders on drugs, or to their individual sentence planning about how they will have health services coming into the prison from outside. address their offending. This has been a big change over Can we expand it further? Yes, we can and it’s really recent years. important that prisons are seen as part of the community ML: Do you think any of that is in jeopardy and not separate from them. That approach has helped now with budget cuts? us to embed the decency agenda; where we are not MS: Budget constraint is going to make everything isolating prisons from the rest of more difficult. It would be wrong the community but breaking not to recognise that. With the down those institutional barriers Offender constraints we are all under in the and recognising that the majority public sector it is going to be more of prisoners only stay with us for a management is difficult to do some of the thing relatively short period. Most are we have been doing, but I’m going back to the community and about what the determined that we won’t lose the the community needs to be individual prisoner focus on the decency agenda. We engaged in working with us and can’t move to running prisons that them when they are in prison. actually requires to are not safe, ordered or secure, ML: How do you think the and it is not right or sensible for us prisoner experience has support them to to withdraw from dealing with changed over the last few change and reduce prisoners as individuals. That is years and how might it change why the rehabilitation revolution is in the future? their re-offending. important because it does put a MS: The first thing to say is focus on helping individuals to that, despite all the rhetoric that change. That does not mean that you sometimes see in the media, I believe that all of this is going to be easy to achieve. I’m absolutely imprisonment, deprivation of liberty, remains a certain that with fewer resources we will have to stop genuine punishment which hurts. For all that people doing some things. We will have to be careful about how say that prisons are too cushy I have rarely met to manage the reduction in resource to maintain the prisoners who actually want to be there. That is safe, decent, ordered prisons that we have achieved over important to say because the fact that the custodial the last ten to fifteen years, whilst also maintaining and experience is, by its nature, painful, should not be increasing the focus on rehabilitation. forgotten. What has changed is that we are delivering ML: I understand that safety and decency are more decent prisons than we did before. The decency important as basics, but perhaps what is more in agenda has been clearly defined and communicated. It jeopardy at this time is purposeful activity and is now well understood and accepted within resettlement which may not be considered establishments and we must maintain this approach. It essential to good custodial management? means that prisoners are treated better than they MS: Yes, I understand those concerns. In terms of were; that there is a much greater recognition and purposeful activity, the aim will be to make better use of appreciation of prisoners as individuals. The idea that the activity and the space that we have got. I accept that we should treat prisoners as we would expect our own there is not sufficient purposeful activity across prisons. relatives to be treated if they were in prison is entirely We are trying to ensure that what activity space there is, proper. The prisoner experience overall is better as is fully utilised and I am always frustrated if I go to prisons result of this. That doesn’t mean that prisons are and there are activity places not being used, whether perfect or that there aren’t individual things that go they be in workshops or in education or on programmes. wrong in prisons, but overall the prisoner experience is There is some scope to do more here and be more better, and that provides a much stronger basis for innovative about how we do things. For example, one of rehabilitation. the areas over the last few years where prisons have

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begun to innovate is recycling, and there is still significant them as targets good governors would want to make scope to do more. I went to Manchester last week and sure we were still delivering on them. It would be daft to saw that they had invested to develop and expand say that we don’t now care about escapes, or to stop recycling in the prison and to potentially extend it to do measuring the levels of drug use or violence in prisons. work for the community. That’s a small example but Or to abandon requirements for staff to be trained in C/R demonstrates how in difficult times we need to think or to ensure prisoners are supported to get a job and differently about how to deliver activities, and link with accommodation on release. These are measures which others to be able to maximise opportunities. I governors have at the moment and if we didn’t have acknowledge that it will be difficult with a shrinking them as targets, any governor worth their salt would still resource to maintain and improve what we are make sure they were concentrating on those areas. If delivering. But we shouldn’t be daunted. It is our job to they weren’t doing that I wouldn’t want them as a ensure we are using the resource that we get as governor. effectively as possible and I don’t believe we are doing Measuring the Quality of Prison Life (MQPL), that as well as we can now, so there is scope to improve. looking at prisoners’ perspectives, is a huge resource to We need to avoid the potentially a governor. It enables a governor detrimental and dangerous to really understand what is approach to budget cutting which We need to avoid going on in their establishment is to just stop doing the good and I wouldn’t want to give that things we were doing previously the potentially up. It is internationally regarded without considering the as one of the best ways of consequences. We have to be detrimental and understanding a prison. External more ruthless about how we are dangerous inspection is also critically using the limited resource we important because you do need have. But even this approach I approach to budget an independent view about how accept will not in itself be enough cutting which is to we are treating people whose to enable us to live within what liberty we have taken away. will be a significantly reduced just stop doing the There’s always a risk that those of budget and that is why the us within institutions can become government is also looking at good things we immune and can ourselves policy reform. There is a were doing become institutionalised. External recognition that there has to be inspection provides a necessary policy reform to deliver the previously without safeguard to ensure that we changes that will be required. continue to treat prisoners That’s why Ken Clarke has said considering the properly. So there will always that he wants to take a consequences. need to be a framework. Can we fundamental look how we deliver reduce the burden of that rehabilitation including the framework? Yes, we can and we Sentencing Framework and is producing a Green Paper should do that, but it can’t be complete de-regulation. for publication in December. It would be inappropriate to do that and we should not ML: Prisons have an extensive system of lose sight of the fact that over the last ten or fifteen managing performance and regulation. Is this years we have massively improved the operation of affordable now in the current climate and should prisons and the experience of prisoners and reduced re- prisons be the subject of de-regulation? offending. This has not been achieved despite the MS: Prisons need to have a framework around them regulatory framework we have in place but, in part, that ensures that we and the community know what is because of it. going on. It is different for prisons than for many other ML: Can I ask about the role of the commercial parts of society because they are closed institutions and sector? We have spoken about the third sector and therefore the idea of de-regulation does necessarily have citizens, but should the commercial sector be constraints. It is important that there is a clear framework running prisons, providing rehabilitation services or specifying what prisons must do and external support services? independent inspection to ensure transparency. But, I do MS: Well they are running prisons and they are think there is scope to look at the regulation in place and running a range of service for NOMS, including prison ask, in the light of government priorities, whether we escorts, electronic monitoring and we have just let a can reduce the burden on individual establishments. We framework contract for the private sector to provide have already begun to look at that by changing what we unpaid work/community payback in the community. The do with audit, but for most KPIs, even if we didn’t have reality is that the private sector does have a role. Can they

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deliver good prisons? Yes, they can, as evidenced by the to pensions and employee benefits. What impact inspection reports on places such as Altcourse or do you think this is likely to have? Lowdham Grange. They can deliver good services, and MS: There is a lot of uncertainty at the moment and why is that? Because we make sure that the private some feeling of unfairness from staff about how they sector is properly regulated and that they are operated as perceive that public sector workers are being treated. But part of the system as a whole. My job is to make sure with that there is also an understanding that the country that all prisons, whether they are run by the private or is in difficulties financially. Therefore, as I go around I find public sector are decent, safe, ordered places that are that the pay freeze has been reasonably accepted by staff purposeful, positive and supporting rehabilitation. The who generally recognise that everybody is having to take government is clear that who delivers services is not some pain at the moment. There is obviously concern important, what matters is the quality of those services. about pensions. We don’t know the final outcome of the In the future, in line with Government policy, I would Hutton review, and whilst there is recognition that this is expect there to be not only a continuation of private a difficult problem for the Government there is sector involvement but a potential growth, along with understandable concern about what this might mean for third sector engagement in the whole area of offender individuals. Of course I understand such anxieties, which management services. are not limited to prison staff. The role of the Agency is to These are issues for the wider ensure that services are delivered My job is to make public sector and will impact as efficiently as possible but across many different groups. We equally to a quality. That is why sure that all prisons, will simply have to work hard to we are going through the whole whether they are ensure that staff do recognise that process of developing detailed the public sector is genuinely specifications to articulate run by the private valued, that the work that staff do minimum standards for whoever remains important and whilst is providing services for prisoners or public sector are there may have to be change it is or offenders in the community. decent, safe, in response to the financial That means that we can regulate challenge we face not about de- those services to ensure that they ordered places that valuing the work that staff are are meeting the needs of are purposeful, doing. But of course this is going individuals and the expectations to be a real challenge. of the public. The reality is that in positive and Internally we have already the future there will be an made some changes to terms and increasingly mixed provision of supporting conditions for new members of public, private and third sector rehabilitation. staff, we have removed the delivering services to offenders in Principal Officer grade, and we both custody and community. have introduced new terms and ML: Can you comment on what you think the conditions for prison officers on recruitment. New impact of private sector competition has been? officers are recruited and trained to the same level as MS: I have said publicly that I have no doubt that previously and are paid at the same rates — but we will competition has played a key part in enabling us to set a ceiling on earnings below the current maximum deliver improvements in outcomes in prisons. I have creating in effect two paybands for prison officers in worked all my career in the public sector and there is a future. This has created some concern with the part of me that would very much like to say that we accusation that we are undermining the value of what didn’t need competition to improve public sector prison officers do? But this is not the case, absolutely not. outcomes. But in reality it is true that in part the public That is why we are training new staff to exactly the same sector has been stimulated to improve because there level as the existing staff and we are not changing the has been competition. It would be false to deny that. assessment process. We are still recruiting people to the That doesn’t mean to say that I believe the private same quality and having no difficulty doing that. The sector can do everything better than the public sector. change has been made because we have to be realistic This is not the case and as HMCIP confirm there are about pay in the future and all the evidence indicates some excellent public sector prisons. But public sector that we must differentiate Prison Officer pay to reflect performance has improved enormously over recent the wide range of work that prison officers do. I know years and competition has been one of the drivers this creates concern for staff but we have to work behind that improvement. through that. We are going to have to work harder and ML: In terms of staff. There are plans to freeze communicate much better than we have in the past and public service pay and make fundamental changes engage with staff in a more effective way than we have

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so that they understand what we are doing and why we a fear that the way that the Rehabilitation Revolution is are doing it. being portrayed would mean that other people, the ML: Do you think there is a threat to industrial voluntary, third sector and commercial companies would relations? take over all rehabilitative services for offenders and that MS: Industrial relations are going to be difficult over would cut out prison governors. That would be the next few years. That is true across the whole of the dangerous and cannot be the right approach. What we public sector. As we speak today there is a rally in London have got to do is to design opportunities to develop new ahead of the spending review where trade unions are delivery models such as Payment by Results recognising bringing people together to demonstrate their concerns the criticality of the Governors role. If programmes are about where we are. That is understandable. At the going to operate within prisons, then unless the minute we have good engagement with all trade unions. governor and staff are fully part of what is going on the They are realistic about the difficulties that the whole of benefits won’t be achieved. Prison governors need to be the public sector are facing. Again we have to at the heart of the rehabilitation revolution and fully communicate and work with them to go through what involved in developments such as the payment by results. will be a difficult period. But I do ML: Do you see a danger think that staff are realistic and do that they may be marginalised understand that the whole The key thing will because of the pressure to country is going through a difficult achieve change? four years or so. The key thing will be to make sure MS: I see that as a risk. But I be to make sure that we are think it is essential that we do not maintaining safe, decent, well that we are end up with governors and prison ordered prisons where staff feel maintaining safe, staff becoming marginalised and that they are valued for what they effectively dealing only with do despite all the difficulties that decent, well security and residential care. we may face. This will be a ordered prisons Governors and the majority of challenge but it is my responsibility prison staff did not join the Prison and one to which I am absolutely where staff feel that Service just to be involved in committed. locking people up. Part of the ML: How do you think they are valued for fascination and challenge of the prison professionals may make what they do role is to do what we can to help their voices heard and is offenders to change as well as to anyone listening? despite all the ensure safety and security. There is MS: The coalition a recognition from ministers that government does want to hear difficulties that governors must play a key role if from practitioners about what we may face. rehabilitation is to be effective. As makes a difference. One of their we work through mechanisms themes is that practitioners have that will deliver the rehabilitation been too constrained in being able to do the things that services in the future we have to do this with Governors make sense and make the biggest impact. That is not separate from them. Governors also have the something the government have said about teachers and opportunity to influence the future through their doctors, and about probation staff and prison staff and professional organisation, the PGA, through engaging this is a good opportunity. I want to make sure that directly with the initiatives that come out of government Governors and staff have appropriate professional and through their own ability to innovate and respond to discretion within a clear and sensible operating the agenda as it develops. framework. On the probation side we have been ML: Anne Owers in her valedictory lecture on working on a pilot in and Sussex to give greater her retirement drew attention to the increasing professional discretion back to probation officers. levels of violence and the gang culture in high Governors already have a fair amount of discretion about security prisons. Do you a view on that? how they operate within their establishments, despite MS: I though that Anne Owers lecture was very the constraints and frameworks we have talked about. I insightful, as you would expect from a Chief Inspector of have already said we are looking to further loosen some Prisons, and a very helpful analysis of where we have of the constraints whilst maintaining appropriate come from and where we are today. The reality is, of oversight. So there will be the opportunity increasingly course, that we have now got a much longer sentenced for governors to feel they have a voice in how they can population than we had before including 13,000 deliver more innovative practice to help offenders to indeterminate sentences. Whilst a large number of change and to drive the rehabilitation revolution. There is people pass through the system quickly, the long stay

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population passes through slowly and has grown Education plays a critical part in this. We must provide significantly. In high security prisons the population is means for people to do their time and to stay sane and younger than previously and serving sentences that are engaged and feel part of a system that is supportive and longer, with some real risks around how individuals can not just coercive. If we do not do this the risk to order is potentially become alienated. The risks to order and significant. safety are significant in such circumstances. We are alive ML: Anne Owers also said quite boldly that to that issue and I thought Anne Ower’s lecture was there is no such thing as humane containment; that timely and will help us to focus on how we can manage containment’s for objects, not people. Are we more that long term population more effectively providing at risk of settling for humane containment now? potential for progression and hope within the long term MS: There is a risk but such an approach would be system. That is really important, and some of the work contrary to my vision for the Agency and the Prison that Alison Liebling is currently Service. I believe strongly that doing at Whitemoor will help us prisoners are individuals and that to get an even better feel for what ... it must always be if we ever lose sight of that then a is going on in high security prisons prison system becomes entirely and how we need to respond to more than mere coercive and potentially indecent. the changing dynamic. The minute we stop seeing There are similar issues in containment. It prisoners as people, then the young offender institutions where must be about how system and the Service is in we have gangs and longer danger. That doesn’t mean to say sentences and we have got to we deal decently that we don’t need secure work though how best to manage with prisoners as regimes for the long sentenced, the changing dynamic. It is one of some of whom will never be the biggest operational challenges individuals and released, but it must always be we have at the moment. How we more than mere containment. It can best manage a longer provide must be about how we deal sentenced population and many opportunities for decently with prisoners as more younger prisoners who individuals and provide don’t buy in to the system, and personal opportunities for personal where, consequently, there is a development, and for individuals heightened risk of individual development, and to make a positive contribution to alienation and concerted disorder. for individuals to society — even if they must Gangs are not new in remain in prison for a long time. prisons. What is important for us make a positive The decency agenda embodies is to recognise how gangs are contribution to this approach and I have already developing and to understand the said very clearly that I won’t give changing dynamic that reflects society ... that up. It has been absolutely what is happening in communities crucial to the development of the and with crime in communities. It Prison Service and it will remain a is one of the reasons why I have been refamiliarising key principle for us over the coming years. Governors myself with High Security Prisons. It has been interesting are committed to it, and this has now become for me to really get a feel for what is going on there and embedded. No-one wants to see the Prison Service the challenges they face. Maintaining order, safety and simply warehousing prisoners and settling for ‘humane security for very long term prisoners and providing containment’ whilst operational pressures, and prisoner realistic opportunities for personal development is the throughput can make it difficult, particularly in local challenge. For long term prisoners, education for prisons we must never lose sight of the fact that we are example, cannot only be about supporting people into dealing with people not objects. That’s why the employment, as that is not what you need in a high government’s clear commitment to rehabilitation is so security prison. You need regime activities to engage welcome so important. individuals and help them cope with long sentences.

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Interview: Eoin McLennan-Murray

Eoin McLennan-Murray is President of the Prison Governors Association. He is interviewed by Steve Hall, former Governor of HMP Styal now working for SERCO.

Eoin McLennan-Murray joined the Prison Service in SH: Is Britain a broken society and to what 1978. He has served in ten prison establishments, as degree do you think prisons can contribute towards well as spending four years in Prison Service addressing social problems such as poverty, Headquarters where he was Staff Officer to the unemployment, family breakdown and anti-social Director General and then the manager responsible behaviour? for development and national roll out of the EMM: I do not think Britain is a broken society but accredited cognitive skills and sex offender there are a number of social issues that need to be programmes. He posts have included governing addressed. Clearly, we are in the middle of a financial crisis governor of HMP Blantyre House and HMP Lewes. but for the majority of the population life is pretty much He was elected as President of the Prison Governor’s as it has always has been, although our behaviour and Association in 2010. The PGA was formed in 1987 to perceptions can be affected by what we see in the media. represent the interests of senior Prison Service grades, in The impact of prison varies depending on the length of particular governor grades. The Association currently sentence served. For short-termers, particularly those who represents almost 1500 members. are serving less than six months we are generally making SH: How do you regard our relatively high the problem worse. Compared with the alternative national imprisonment rate? community punishment short-term imprisonment is both EMM: I think that we have a love affair with the use expensive and ineffective. For many being in prison is a of custody. The PGA has argued that certain sections of product of the failure of the social and welfare systems in the prison population should not be in custody in the wider society — investing in prisons does not seem to be numbers they are. Such groups include children, women, an appropriate response to this situation. In most cases it the mentally ill and certain categories of short-term is too little too late. It was Tony Blair who spoke about prisoners. We believe that we are out of step with Europe being tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. and have an incarceration rate nearly twice that of We have seen the manifestation of being tough by . Our rate is closer to Eastern European massive rises in the prison population with average Countries. So although crime rates are falling this is not sentence lengths increasing. Regrettably, this has not reflected in imprisonment rates which continue to rise. been matched by being tough on the causes of crime. SH: How likely do you think it is that this rate What we do in prison is right but its comparatively small will be reduced? How desirable do you think this is? scale and it does not address the root cause. Prison is not EMM: We have seen both Conservative and Labour the place to tackle social engineering on the scale governments talk up crime in response to press required to have a meaningful impact on wider society. comments. That in turn has led to longer sentences, and That is a task for other central government departments. legislation like that related to Indeterminate Sentences, SH: To what degree do you think it will be which has driven up imprisonment rates. So although possible to achieve a ‘rehabilitation revolution’, imprisonment should be falling the impact of this political significantly reducing reoffending, given the current pressure, itself a product of public perceptions of safety, squeeze on resources? has driven up rates. Politicians are no longer doing what EMM: I interpret this as simply maximising the is right, and what the prevailing research tells us is chances of someone not re-offending post-release. There appropriate, but simply responding to populist pressure are some basic things the government could do to as portrayed by the media. So for those particularly remove barriers that many prisoners encounter on release. vulnerable groups like women and the mentally ill there is The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act could be updated to a need to reduce their numbers within the prison system. take account of sentence inflation since 1974. Car and For this latter group there is real evidence that suggests household insurance could be made more accessible and that appropriate treatment in secure psychiatric units can affordable to ex-prisoners. The difficulty with opening reduce the risks that this group presents and of course bank accounts is beginning to be addressed and the deal with the underlying issues rather than treat them as system of discharge payments is wholly in need of criminals within the prison system. For women, the fundamental reform. These things are not difficult to deal disproportionate impact of incarceration on them and the with but they require the will to do it. children for which they are often primary carers often However, I think the government’s idea of the outweighs the relatively minor benefit to society from ‘rehabilitation revolution’ is to pay organisations to reduce imprisonment. re-offending. They will be paid by results and I suppose

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this means that they take the risk. If they fail to deliver the SH: What are the major obstacles to prison required outcome then they are not paid. I am concerned reform? that organisations will simply cherry pick offenders who EMM: For there to be reform there must be the are more likely to succeed and leave those that are not. In political will to deliver it and deliver it in the face of a principle I support any approach that significantly and reactionary media and right wing antagonism from within genuinely reduces crime, even if this is not the public their own party. These are obstacles to reform and the sector, although I would want to be certain that there was recent rhetoric from ministers is encouraging but has yet a level playing field between these organisations. One of to be matched with action. the concerns I have is that the public sector is constrained We sometimes go too far with the process of audits through over centralisation and control in a way that and risk assessments and impact assessments, often private sector organisations don’t appear to be. This losing our sense of reality. Removing or reducing these makes us less competitive. So, payment by result is a processes would allow us to get back to a reforming theoretical methodology for funding successful outcomes agenda. when government money is tight. This approach greatly SH: How do you see the idea of ‘The Big increases the involvement of the third and private sectors. Society’ impacting on prisons? SH: How do you think the EMM: I am not really clear actual prisoner experience has about what is meant by ‘The Big shifted in recent years? How is There has also been Society.’ I sense it is about getting it likely to change in the next lots of different groups to engage few years? a massive injection with the task of resettling prisoners EMM: I think that prisoners’ of funding in and some of this engagement experiences have certainly would be voluntary and some changed for the better. The programmes, health would be paid by results. defining moment was the Woolf I can remember a time when the report, which marked the and education and a majority of prisons were engaged beginning of the decency agenda. response to the on community activity of one form There has also been a massive or another. In particular, the injection of funding in ‘what works’ involvement of vulnerable groups, programmes, health and agenda which has such as the disabled who were education and a response to the able to come in to prisons to use ‘what works’ agenda which has produced a dramatic facilities while being helped by produced a dramatic improvement prisoners. This stopped when we in the quality of prison life. This is a improvement in the became risk averse. I realise that product of additional investment quality of prison life. this type of activity is on the fringes and improvement to regimes. of what the Big Society means but Coupled with this has been the a return to this kind of approach ratcheting up of standards through HMCIP expectations can only be a good thing. and responding to MQPL feedback. The combined effect SH: Are there ways in which the charitable has undoubtedly led to an improvement in the prisoner sector and citizens can make a new and different experience. contribution to prisons and rehabilitation? Conversely, as prison budgets come under increasing EMM: I would be surprised if there was something pressure as a result of the economic downturn we can new that could be done. Charities and individuals have only assume that these improvements will now go into been working with prisoners for a long time now and we decline. know that there are many things which work. It is more SH: What do you regard as the biggest an issue of sustainability. Many successful projects have a problems in the prison system? limited funding life. When the money stops the project EMM: Over control from the centre and stops even if it was seen as successful. Payment by results managerialism, although I think the reduction in budgets may be a potential solution to this age old problem. will overshadow these factors. The rise in managerialism SH: Prisons have an extensive system of has led to an organisation that is risk averse and managerial monitoring and regulation, including hamstrung. This is holding back prison governors who key performance targets, audits, inspection and have a reform agenda or who want to make a difference. surveys of staff and prisoners. Is this affordable or Combined with the overuse of custody and shrinking necessary? Should prisons be the subject of budgets the system is under real pressure and ultimately deregulation? this may result in the progress we have made in recent EMM: We have gone too far and created an overly years being lost. bureaucratic and expensive service. In the past governors

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were largely left to their own devices, they were transfer of jobs from public to private operation. Many adaptable and flexible in their approach — they got the will think that in these times just having a job is a job done. It is true that in this new culture we have been fortunate position. This reality is permeating down and successful at reducing escapes and improving outputs in a the PGA has accepted the fact that there will not be a pay number of areas but this is not to say that the results rise for two years — this is a pragmatic response. Similarly, could not have been achieved by allowing governors to all our members have volunteered to give up first class maintain a degree of autonomy. travel for the time being. The PGA membership, as a What this approach has produced is a new breed of managerial union, is far more understanding of the bigger governors who are driven by a new form of performance picture and why these things are happening, and are part structure, whereas what we need is a greater balance and in making this happen. greater autonomy. Prisons are now managed by a SH: How do you think industrial relations in particular formula rather than being led — people don’t prisons are likely to develop over the next four easily fit into processes which can de-skill staff and lead to years? narrowly defined approaches. EMM: Like pay, it will be difficult because of the SH: What role should the commercial sector potential for loss of jobs. We have to be equally pragmatic have in imprisonment? about this and do the best for members in this climate EMM: The PGA has a position on this — we don’t rather than resist the inevitable. It will be the POA and accept that prisons should be run their approach to this that will be by private sector organisations. the dominant factor, not least However we have to accept that when this results in . It the battle over whether or not ... we have to accept is always the PGA and its members there will be private sector pick up the pieces from this. Now involvement has been lost. I that the battle over the POA and PCS will not take part cannot say what will happen in the whether or not there in mutual discussions with us, future and maybe we will need to which is disappointing. In the take a more pragmatic position in will be private sector event of one of the public sector the future prisons being lost in the current SH: To what extent do you involvement has round of commercial competition, think private sector been lost. the POA have said that they will competition has altered the take industrial action. Our position terrain of imprisonment? will not change and even though EMM: We have to acknowledge that without the our members are also affected, we will have to work involvement of the private sector, and sometimes this is through this and cooperate with the private sector to the threat of privatisation, we would not have made achieve this. the improvements in the system that have been made. SH: How should prison professionals make their I realise that this has been a bitter pill to swallow. For voices heard in the current debates about prisons the public sector this has also contributed to the and imprisonment? Is anyone listening? necessary pressure on the POA to reform and adopt EMM: One of my roles is to improve relationships new approaches. This has certainly made us more with other organisations in the criminal justice system competitive and puts us in a stronger position in future including unions and pressure groups that have a voice tendering exercises. Now that there is a market in within the system. We are therefore looking to work in private prisons the government are unlikely to turn partnership with these organisations in both our away from it and are more likely to use it in other arms interests. Recently we have worked closely with both of the criminal justice system. The landscape has the Howard League and Prison Reform Trust on short changed forever and the best we can hope for is a sentences and indeterminate sentences for public mixed economy where the public sector continues to protection respectively. We get our voice heard in the be the main provider. media, although I think we can do more. We are SH: There are plans to freeze public sector pay listened to when there is an inquiry and I like to think and make fundamental changes to pensions and that NOMS is listening a little more, although this employee benefits. What impact is this likely to largely results from a number of legal challenges by the have on existing prison staff and for the future PGA. There is sometimes a sense that some of the workforce? NOMS Board have lost touch with the reality of work in EMM: We are used to having annual increases and prisons. We will continue to advocate joint working no one welcomes the loss of this. The reality is that we are with the Board as we have a common aim of making looking at the potential for redundancy and wholesale the Prison Service better.

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Interview: John Bowers John Bowers is an ex-prisoner and former commissioning editor for Inside Time. He is interviewed by Maggie Bolger who works in HM Prison Service Training Services.

John Bowers spent a total of 15 years in prison for ever going to change. Let’s just hope that finally we burglary related offences. He was released from have a party that means business. I am reminded of prison for the last time in 1991. In the build up Anne Widdecombe’s comments a few years ago that towards and following his release, he worked what this country needs is a system whereby prisoners with New Bridge, a charitable organisation get up, they are treated humanely, and they do a working with prisoners. He started working on worthwhile job and earn money. Unfortunately, in the their project to produce a national newspaper for current climate that is almost cloud cuckoo land. To me prisoners. This started publication in 1991 and was it is so blatantly obvious that what we need within this called Inside Time. He worked successfully in criminal justice system are men and women doing a establishing and developing the publication and good days work and earning a good days pay; getting between 1996 and 2010 held the post of used to the work culture. Unfortunately, it took me a lot Commissioning Editor. During that time the of years to get used to that culture because I had been newspaper has become established as the leading so entrenched in committing crime. When I talk in national publication for prisoners and has schools, I explain that crime is like a drug, it’s an expanded from 24 to 56 pages, attracting many addiction. We have thousands of people who are prominent contributors He recently left the paper basically ‘crime addicts’, to add to all the other in order to take up a role undertaking lectures in addictions they may have. They simply cannot stop schools and colleges on the realities of prison and crime without suitable interventions. It is as powerful as how to avoid becoming involved in crime. smoking, drugs, drink or gambling. I couldn’t stop, I MB: How do you regard our relatively high needed help; I needed to want to stop and so it is with national imprisonment rate? thousands of men and women. From letters that I used JB: I am reminded of a quote from Winston to get on Inside Time there are an awful lot of men and Churchill who said that you can measure the civilisation women who want to stop, yet they just don’t know of a society by how it treats its prisoners. A telling how. They get discharged with £48.00 and in 2 or 3 comment at the time and we would do well to revisit weeks they are back in prison again or they are back in that quote. I think the imprisonment rate is a reflection their old ways. It is almost an inevitability that they are on the British ‘retribution’ mentality. We love our pound going to go back, so how do we stop this trend, and is of flesh; some people would bring back the stocks and that the Prison Service’s fault? Well I don’t think it is the gallows. This mentality is constantly fuelled by actually. The Prison Service does what it can. They take certain sections of the media with their regurgitated people from the courts and look after them with headlines. Let’s try and leave slamming individual humanity and care and then basically they pray. They political parties because I don’t think any of the main pray that these people will leave the gates and not parties have got anything to be proud of when it comes reoffend, yet statistically they know that 6 out of 10 to our criminal justice system. When New Labour came will come back. With young offenders it is 8 out of 10. into power there were 43,000 in prison. Now it’s I find it appalling that the public don’t throw out The double that number and according to projected figures Sun and the Daily Mail and actually start thinking for we are heading for about 95,000 by 2020. So whoever themselves instead of allowing their thought process to is doing the projecting presumably is of the view that it be dictated to by the media. will get worse before it gets better. MB: Do you think that Britain is a broken MB: How likely do you think it is that this rate society and to what degree do you think prisons will be reduced? How desirable do you think this can contribute toward addressing social is? problems? JB: Until there is a noticeable shift in the mentality JB: I don’t think it is a broken society, but it is of the general public, and politicians stop being so becoming ever more fragmented. How can prisons fearful of the tabloids, it is highly unlikely that we will effectively contribute towards addressing social see a reduction. It is highly desirable that the prison rate problems when the damage has already been done? All be reduced and Ken Clarke seems to have some good that prisons can do is just ‘contain’ for a period and then ideas. It is easy to be cynical and insist that nothing is trust to luck. I think prisons pick up the pieces and do

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their best to glue people together again with whatever conditions of my parole licence otherwise I will be resources they have got at their disposal. We all know recalled to prison. Personally, I just don’t see the they just do not have enough resources. I think the prisoner experience changing that much. If you take Prison Service does its best with the tools that it is given. whatever the percentage of the Prison Service budget MB: Ken Clarke wants a rehabilitation is, then things are going to suffer and that includes revolution really, how possible do you think this levels of activity, time unlocked etc. is? MB: What do you regard as being the biggest JB: I think it is wonderful sounding rhetoric. It problems in the prison system? sounds great doesn’t it? Yet they are cutting back on JB: Inside Time gets a lot of letters about prison resources and spending. So how can you have a officers treating inmates with a lack of respect. I am not rehabilitation revolution with even less money than blaming prison officers entirely, because I think a lot of you’ve had in previous years? Do we want a revolution prisoners have a terrible attitude towards prison staff. or do we just want an application of common sense Time and time again I witnessed certain prisoners from politicians — who should stop looking nervously whingeing about staff treating them in a certain way over their shoulders at the media and wondering about and I used to say to these people, ‘hang on a minute, the vote. I do like the way that how do you treat staff?’ I quite this new coalition is going about often saw new prison officers their business and it all looks I think the general come in, they smiled at prisoners good, but then it all looked good and they were very respectful when New Labour came to consensus is that towards them but then six power and they said they were things have months later they were in with going to do away with private the dinosaurs in the tea-hut prisons. Thirteen years later, what changed for the screaming about prisoners, has happened within the criminal better, but there is because slowly but surely the justice system? Has Labour got prisoners had eroded the anything to be proud of? still a long way to respectfulness out of them. They Doubling the prison population is join the 60 year-old prison officer their legacy. This ‘rehabilitation go, especially as far culture which is to bang them up revolution’ could sound really as this wonderful ... ’out of sight out of mind’. It stupid in a few years time. They needs an attitude shift both ways. will be saying ‘what revolution?’ ‘through-care’ and Similarly, how can prison officers Lots of initiatives appear good ‘after-care’ is or prisoners work together in a and politicians are wonderful place that’s seriously with sound-bites and concerned. overcrowded? I often describe meaningless rhetoric and I have prison wings as zoos, and that had a life-time of listening to isn’t any reference to animals, it is them. Ask the prison officer and ask the guy in cell C4 a reference to the hustle and bustle of everybody going in Wandsworth what has happened over the last few at a hundred miles an hour but actually getting years and they will probably say they have cleaned the nowhere. recess and the classes aren’t too bad, but plenty might MB: What do you see as the major obstacles change because of the cutbacks. So how can we towards prison reform? possibly move forward to this ‘revolution’ with less JB: Public perception, the media and the money to spend? politicians’ stereotypical stance on what should be done MB: How do you think the prisoner with those who are sent to prison. The publics’ experience has shifted in the last few years? perception is to lock them up and throw away the key. JB: Very difficult to tell without actually being on What are prisoners doing with pool tables and plasma the landings. All I can do is quote from my experience TV screens? I regularly see this stereotypical view of with Inside Time and the hundreds of letters that it gets prisons and prisoners regurgitated. If only the public every month. I think the general consensus is that would stop and ask themselves why these people end things have changed for the better, but there is still a up in prison in the first place? Let’s get them when they long way to go, especially as far as this wonderful are young and stop them from going to prison, and if ‘through-care’ and ‘after-care’ is concerned. Probation’s they do end up in prison, what can the system do of a main function now is protecting the public, as opposed constructive nature to bring down this rate of 60-70 to looking after the prisoners’ welfare. Once upon a per cent re-offending? A lot of the public just shrug time I went to my probation officer for constructive their shoulders and say it is not my problem, and to a help; now I’ll go and he will warn me to keep to the degree I can understand that. If you have got your

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mortgage to pay, kids, job and your personal problems to have shifted to my brain. What I have had since 1991 to think about, why should you have to worry about is a very powerful mind that was determined never to criminals and prisoners? In my view, you should think ... go back inside. Apart from one or two friends and the ‘well, I should worry because this is one of the biggest New Bridge organisation, I have done everything social problems that we face’. Most things are solvable myself. I am determined that I am never going back to with pounds, shillings and pence. The prison system is prison. Yet I don’t think that a lot of people in prison are suffering through lack of resources. Yet if you doubled that mentally strong and so, to return to Cameron’s ‘Big the resources would this actually make a lot of Society’, they need the ‘Big Society’ to help them. difference? At the end of the day you are talking about Instead of spitting in their face, prisoners need the shifting attitudes and perceptions, you are dealing with public to say: ‘I will shake your hand. Tell me why you human beings. You are not running a business, but it did it and why you think I should trust you? Then I will has become a business. In fact a couple of years ago I give you a chance’. We need to get through to society recall a guy writing to Inside Time asking how many that although a lot of prisoners have done some bad people were employed looking after prisoners. There things, they are not necessarily bad people and when are judges, magistrates, prison does society say: ‘OK, you were a officers, administration staff, I bad person, you are not bad stopped at a quarter of a million. now’? This is a valid point, because At the end of the Bearing in mind that I have prisoners keep a quarter of a day you are talking not stolen a thing for 25 years, I million people in gainful am still branded by a lot of employment. Society doesn’t like about shifting people as ‘that ex-criminal’, and criminals and we don’t like they don’t want to talk to me, people in prison and yet they attitudes and they don’t want to know me. almost have a vested interest in perceptions, you are That’s not self-pity — that is an keeping prisons. I fell for it for 15 inescapable fact of life that I still years and gave a lot of people dealing with human find hard to live with. But a lot of gainful employment and have beings. You are not people still look at my record and they appreciated it? still compartmentalise me as a MB: How do you see the running a business, totally bad person who will never idea of this ‘Big Society’ change. I can’t do anything in my impacting on prisons? but it has become defence; a criminal has no JB: What exactly is meant by a business. defence. You can’t try and justify ‘The Big Society’? Can you crime; you can’t condone what enlighten me? This lovely phrase you did. Instead of kicking a ‘The Big Society’ is yet another Cameron sound-bite person while they are down, society could from his manifesto. However, if this ‘Big Society’ idea metaphorically help them up. Let’s hope that this ‘Big creates an attitude shift it could well impact quite Society’ idea works, or is it yet another sound-bite like considerably on prisons. When Labour came into power ‘rehabilitation revolution?’ I am available to the the prison population was 40,000 — now it is over Government for sound-bites if they want, because I 80,000. Why does it need to be 80,000? Surely this ‘Big have got some crackers lined up! Society’ should be aiming for a reduction to 70,000 and MB: Are there ways in which you think the then 60,000 and ultimately only keeping people in charitable sector and citizens can make a new and prison who really need to be there, not the mentally ill different contribution to prisons and and the inadequate. rehabilitation? Inside Time receives many letters from prisoners JB: They have been making a good contribution who say they are fearful of release. They are being for years, but the problem is that a lot of prison service released in a couple of weeks and should be ecstatic, personnel tend to view them with scepticism and but are not. They are thinking: ‘I have been fed and cynicism. They are treated as ‘do-gooders’, which clothed, I have my friends, I have my tobacco and I have unfortunately some of them are. They can’t make a my little routines — why am I going out there to face new and different contribution; all they can hope to do what can be quite a hostile and scary world?’ is chip away and change attitudes. I often resented MB: Scary? going into prisons as part of the New Bridge JB: Yes, it can be very scary to a person being organisation where there was a look of patronising released from prison. When I came out in 1991 I was contempt on the faces of certain gate lodge staff, as if totally determined to go straight. I had lost much of my to say ... ‘here comes another bunch of do-gooders. powerful physique, yet fortunately that power seemed These people will never change, don’t you

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understand?’ At the time, staff didn’t know I was a MB: What role should the commercial sector former prisoner. Unfortunately, some of them are have in imprisonment? members of the do-gooder brigade; I do have to say JB: I have heard people say for years it is not that. They are people whose lives are perhaps lacking a acceptable that shareholders or indeed anyone should lot of things and they want to be appreciated in life — profit from human misery. My view is that it doesn’t and so they gravitate towards perhaps one of the most matter whether you are in a public or private sector vulnerable sections of society, which are prisoners, and prison — you are still going to be miserable. You have who naturally lap up the attention. The charitable human misery in both and if Doncaster, as opposed to sector and ordinary citizens can make a lot of Wandsworth or Wormwood Scrubs, can actually say to difference, although they do have to be viewed in a prisoners, ‘we can give you housing and a job’, is there different light. They have to be anything wrong with that? If I viewed as people who can make was a shareholder in Doncaster or a real change and real impact, Dovegate, or any other private not just do-gooders coming in When you say prison, I will get my dividend and once a week and the ‘butt’ of delivering more for make a profit. Am I making a prison officers’ jokes in the gate profit from prisoners’ misery or lodge. less, it’s forcing am I making a profit from a MB: Prisons have an people into a corner business that is being run better extensive system of than it was previously? If any managerial monitoring and where they are public sector prison is being run regulation, including key on Doncaster’s level, then the performance targets, audits, almost panicking whole service would be far better inspection and surveys of now to deliver a for it. The public sector just does staff and prisoners. Is this not have the money that Serco affordable or necessary? certain amount and has, so the thought of the public Should prisons be the subject sector ever getting Doncaster of deregulation? then being told back is unthinkable. Has the JB: Over the years I have ‘thank you very private sector got an unfair watched this extensive system of advantage? Should we be doing managerial monitoring and much, but next year what Labour did and do a u-turn? regulation and I think it has you have got to Before they were elected, they become a bit too much. We are said they would do away with all not dealing with a multi- national deliver a little bit the private sector prisons, and business, we are dealing with then they doubled them in a people; human beings. But of more with less couple of years. Should the idea course the Prison Service is now a resource’. be to run 142 prisons on private business; it is run on business sector lines and invest more in lines. I think you do need targets, them? But, what are the return but we have now gone way over to the other side. It’s rates for HMP Doncaster? Are they better than the all about ticking boxes. Prisoners are pretty shrewd, public sector? I don’t know. Then there is the they know which boxes they need to tick in order for experience of staff because those in private sector them to be able to progress through the system. So, it prisons are paid less. A lot of them do not have the is almost a reciprocal arrangement whereby the Prison necessary experience; so is it a case of the prisoners Service is saying: ‘we need you to help us tick a few of running these prisons? I suppose if it’s working at these boxes ready for the audits and inspections. Doncaster, and the prisoners are having more say than Behave yourself and we will tick the appropriate box or they do in the public sector, what is wrong with that? boxes that will move you on’. When you say delivering Has the public sector got a lot to learn? Let’s take more for less, it’s forcing people into a corner where Doncaster as our example. Has the public sector they are almost panicking now to deliver a certain dinosaur been asleep for so long that it needed a good amount and then being told ‘thank you very much, but kick from the private sector to wake it up and say ‘this next year you have got to deliver a little bit more with is the way forward ... we do have the experience ... we less resource’. Paperwork takes up a lot of the prison know how to handle prisoners’, but do they? They get officers’ time. Is it necessary to have them scribbling the kid from Tesco and 5 minutes later he is wearing a half the day when they should be out on the landings? prison officer’s uniform. It is funny in one respect, but if You need paperwork, of course you do, you need the kid from Tesco can come along the landing and talk audits, but it has just gone crazy. to the guy in the cell, become friends, then that officer

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is going to benefit more than the officer that is bashing going to suffer but you are going to suffer more if this the door in the prisoner’s face. All roads lead to respect friction continues. and attitude. If the attitude is better in private sector MB: During your time as Commissioning prisons, then I’m all for it. Editor on Inside Time, what were some of the MB: There are plans to freeze public sector issues and concerns raised by prisoners? pay and make fundamental changes to pensions JB: The paper frequently highlights constructive and employee benefits. What impact is this likely comment from serving prisoners in relation to how the to have on existing prison staff and for the future problems within the criminal justice system can best be workforce? resolved. These are the people that know the problems, JB: It is the same for Prison Service employees or they live every day of their lives with them and I think any other organisation. If you are going to freeze pay, politicians and the Prison Service would do well to read you would hope that professionalism would override Inside Time on a regular basis. Prisoners want to be anger. However, it is almost treated with more respect by natural that your work would prison staff — you treat us with suffer. You are not going to give respect and we will treat you with a hundred percent. There is going Despite the current respect. Indeterminate Public to be a lot of resentment. I don’t recession, perhaps Protection is another massive bone think Prison Service staff will of contention. It sounds great to leave in droves, but I would be more ex-prisoners the public but the services aren’t quite angry if I was in their shoes. could be employed there to meet their needs. They How it will affect the future I should have thought about it really don’t know; I am not overly travelling round properly. If the courts are going to qualified to talk about the sentence this amount of people to conditions; that would be more a schools to enlighten IPP then we need to have a question for the affected prison on the reality of structure in place to properly officer to answer. accommodate them. Other big MB: How do you think prison life or to deter issues concern release, industrial relations in prisons impressionable employment and accommodation. are likely to develop over the If you’ve lived a certain life, then next four years? youngsters from you need support to develop JB: For a lot of years it has responsibility. We talk of a ‘Big been like a game of football embarking on lives Society’, but it doesn’t yet know it’s between the two opposing sides. of crime. brief. The issues concerning lack of I think the POA must still live in employment and accommodation the dark ages and they use any are as pertinent now as they were opportunity to the cause of their members. In in the 70’s and 80’s. my role on Inside Time, I have personally asked them MB: You’ve recently left Inside Time in order over the years to clarify statements or to comment on to do more diversionary work with young people issues and have not even been given the courtesy of a in schools and colleges. What contribution can response. It’s almost as if they have got a sort of offenders or ex-offenders make to this? arrogance about them that says we are not going to JB: I am aware of deterrent initiatives within answer that question because it is beneath us to talk to certain prisons that allow young people to come inside a prisoners’ newspaper. It would be nice to think that and see for themselves what prison is really like and talk industrial relations would develop with these two to serving prisoners. There is nothing like first-hand teams; the POA and management actually working in experience. Despite the current recession, perhaps tandem instead of against each other. They should more ex-prisoners could be employed travelling round both be going for the same ends. I can’t see why the schools to enlighten on the reality of prison life or to POA need to be as obstructive as they have been in deter impressionable youngsters from embarking on the past. I say come out of the dark ages, sit down and lives of crime. It costs in excess of £40,000 a year to work together. If there are going to be problems with keep a person in prison — so why not try to deter the government’s spending review then you are both youngsters from crime in the first place?

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Interview: Rod Morgan Rod Morgan is part-time Professor of Criminal Justice at the University of Bristol and Visiting Professor at both the London School of Economics and the Police Science Institute, Cardiff University. He is interviewed by Paul Crossey, Head of Security and Operations at HMYOI Portland.

Until February 2007 Professor Rod Morgan was interventions. My reasoning is that research shows Chair of the Youth Justice Board (YJB) for England that use of custody is generally criminogenic. That is, and Wales, a post from which he resigned you’re actually increasing the risk of reoffending. following disagreements with ministers over PC: How likely do you think it is that this rate aspects of Government policy regarding youth will be reduced? justice issues. Prior to that he was HM Chief RM: Well the Government has to look for big savings Inspector of Probation for England and Wales, and you cannot save much money if you just reduce the before which he was an academic researcher and population by small numbers. All that happens is that you teacher for 30 years. Professor Morgan has save marginal amounts. Until we start closing authored many books and articles on aspects of establishments we will not make the significant savings criminal justice policy ranging from policing to that Ken Clarke needs to make. I find it difficult to see sentencing including co-editing the Oxford how he is going to do it. He can push existing trends Handbook of and a similar volume on further with young offenders because, quite remarkably, probation. He has also held many posts at all levels the number of children and young people in penal within the criminal justice system including custody has reduced by about a third in the last 18 magistrate, police authority member, chairman of months. It has come down from over 3000 to around a community safety partnership, Parole Board 2150. A number of factors have contributed to this trend, member, commission member, inspector, but we don’t really know which of the factors have been government advisor, expert advisor to the UN, the most significant. Further, it’s difficult to see how Ken Council of Europe and Amnesty International on Clarke will achieve the same with the adult population, custodial conditions and the prevention of torture. unless he undertakes some fairly drastic courses of action He is also a community activist and campaigner, like executive early release, which will not be easy to sell currently concerned with reducing the politically. His immediate purpose seems to be to ‘talk criminalisation of children. He is a director or down’ the prison population. So far he has managed to trustee of half a dozen centres and voluntary stabilise the numbers. If he keeps up this rhetoric it will groups working on criminal justice issues or with help because the use of imprisonment is affected by the young people in trouble. ‘mood music’ coming from the centre. However, until we PC: How do you regard our relatively high start addressing the legislation for things like IPPs national imprisonment rate? (Indeterminate Sentence for Public Protection) it is very RM: I deprecate it. I find it interesting that Ken difficult to see how significant population reductions, and Clarke is returning to Government as Justice thus expenditure savings, can be achieved. If the Secretary and made those speeches, one in July at Government aim is to front load the savings, I don’t really which I was present, pointing out that when he was see how it can be done in the short term. The Home Secretary in 1991 the prison population was forthcoming Green Papers on Sentencing and the about 42,000 and now is over 85,000. I take the Rehabilitation Revolution should give us more guidance. I same view as Ken Clarke: that such a high population believe that the prison population will drop but it will be is unproductive and unsustainable. I think it is difficult slow rather than dramatic. to say what the population should be but I see no PC: Is Britain a broken society and to what reason why it shouldn’t be much closer to 42,000. degree do you think prisons can contribute towards The thing we know about this issue is that the addressing social problems such as poverty, proportionate use of imprisonment has risen for most unemployment, family breakdown and anti-social categories of offenders, with the recent exception of behaviour? young offenders. If you compare like for like cases we RM: I think imprisonment has to be available for are using imprisonment more and for longer than 10- persistent, serious offenders who do not respond to 20 years ago at a time when the crime rate and treatment and programmes. However, I don’t think Britain volume of crime has significantly reduced. This is a is broken. We do though have a significant problem with grotesque waste of money. I want to see the policy our dramatic wealth and income divide. With youth centre of gravity shift towards community unemployment rates rising over the next few years this

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divide will likely get worse. I heard the Chief Inspector of have little choice but to cut everything that is non- Constabulary talking about crime and anti-social statutory. They are almost bound to do so even though behaviour problems in Manchester on the radio this everyone agrees that these organisations are really morning and I agree the problems are fairly desperate in positive and in the long term lead to significant savings. some communities. However, I don’t think that taking They help prevent young people get into deeper trouble. people out of circulation if they won’t respond to positive The trick, therefore, will be to devise means of transferring programmes or opportunities has to take the form it savings in custodial provision to community-based currently does, particularly when dealing with young preventive services. offenders. We can be more creative with what custody PC: How do you think the actual prisoner looks like. There is need to engage the judiciary, to ensure experience has shifted in recent years? How is it their continuous involvement, with the ongoing likely to change in the next few years? implications of sentences. In the case of young offenders RM: In some respects it is a lot better. When I began we have a provision on the statute book, section 34, work as a research officer in 1968 in prisons, we were which has not yet been used. Section 34 provides that a comparing prison regimes in five establishments from custodial sentence could, if the Secretary of State high security to remand conditions in local prisons. Our sanctions it, be served in places local was HMP Winchester. other than prisons. Places such as Conditions there were a complete special schools or intensive eye-opener to me. The remand fostering placements in the ... everyone agrees conditions were appalling. community combined with limits that these Prisoners were locked up for 23 on movement or liberty. I find it hours a day in traditional Victorian bizarre that we have no open organisations are cells, with no sanitation, three or establishments for young really positive and in four to a cell. It was disgraceful. offenders under 18. There is no The people who got the best ‘half-way house’. We need to be the long term lead conditions then were, ironically, more creative with things like the long term sentenced prisoners contracts with offenders, that is if to significant in the high security establishments. you do X you get privileges Y, to savings. They help They weren’t subject to enable a more graduated process. overcrowding whereas remand My hope is that these creative prevent young prisoners, supposedly subject to measures come into place to the presumption of innocence, replace the black and white people get into were. They got virtually nothing options we currently have. deeper trouble. because it was argued they had PC: To what degree do you statutory rights; they could bring in think it will be possible to their own clothing, they could achieve a ‘rehabilitation revolution’, significantly have food sent in, in theory they could even have wine reducing reoffending, given the current squeeze on sent in although no one ever encountered it. In law they resources? could even employ people to clean their cells. I was part RM: It will not be achieved unless we significantly of the Woolf enquiry into the 1990 disturbances. Things shift the centre of gravity for spending. When I left the then were still quite bad in places like Strangeways (HMP YJB we had a budget of roughly £460 million and about Manchester) with injustices about which prisoners were 64 per cent of that amount went on the cost of custody. seriously and rightly upset. Many of these conditions and The amount that we could allocate to the Youth issues have significantly improved. We are now much Offending Teams (YOTs) for community work was more decent and respectful in our treatment of prisoners. peanuts. We must significantly shift this centre of gravity Basic standards have hugely improved. by getting the custodial numbers down. At a seminar I On the other hand, however, we have become so attended recently representatives of the voluntary sector risk adverse that security concerns have been raised to agencies expressed concern that the money they receive disproportionate levels. We are not taking any risks with from local authorities will significantly be cut over the next prisoners. These are mostly people who will shortly be two or three years. Their fears are well grounded because released. If they are not given some responsibility then local authority spending is going to be under extreme they will fail. High levels of security are also enormously pressure. There are lots of excellent mentoring schemes expensive. In some other countries things are very around. I am President of one, Mentoring Plus in Bath. It different. On a recent study visit to Spanish young doesn’t cost a huge amount but most of the scheme’s offender institutions I was struck by the almost complete resources comes from the local authority who have absence of perimeter security. The arrangements in Spain signalled a cut of up to 50 per cent because will likely would probably be regarded by many prison managers in

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this country as a joke. But the evidence suggests that the Government. Our main hope to address the prison Spanish authorities achieve a better response from their population is now with the sentencing commission. This young prisoners than we do. won’t be easy. The big difference between here and other Overall, our prison staff are today better trained countries is not the proportionate use of imprisonment. It but they work in this serious risk adverse climate is the fact that we send people to prison for so long. It will which will only change if our politicians show the kind be difficult to reverse that without the Government of leadership which has been so conspicuously lacking experiencing the wrath of the Daily Mail maintaining that in recent times. The problems with IPPs for example, they have gone soft on crime. But the task of public were the responsibility of one Home Secretary and education must be undertaken. People are not made subsequent Home Secretaries failed to make safer in their beds at night by expanding our use of necessary changes. I thought at the time that Ken imprisonment. Clarke made some serious errors in the early 1990s The next issue is that we need politicians to defend when he swept away, rather than fine-tuned, some the penal services when there are breaches of security and important provisions in the 1991 Criminal Justice Act. things go wrong. Because if you’re doing constructive But, paradoxically, he could be things you have to take reasonable the politician brave enough to risks. The public needs to be told make the fundamental; changes Overall, our prison that any system that doesn’t have now required. I find it significant the occasional mishap isn’t doing that the person being most staff are today its job properly. I was an advisor to quoted in recent months is better trained but the Council of Europe Committee Barrack Obama’s chief of staff, for the Prevention of Torture (the Rahm Emanuel, who said, ‘We they work in this CPT) which visits and inspects can’t let a good crisis go to a custodial establishments. We were waste’. I agree. We currently serious risk adverse in Sweden in 1992 and went to have a really good opportunity climate which will Sweden’s maximum security to stop doing things we should prison. Within it they had a never have been doing in the only change if our ‘supermax’ unit in which some first place. I’m more optimistic politicians show the Palestinian terrorists were being than I am pessimistic. The held. Two or three of them financial crisis will force kind of leadership escaped with a gun the day before politicians to say that we have to we arrived. You can imagine the stop doing certain things that which has been so hoo-hah. The prisoners were not they weren’t prepared to stop conspicuously recaptured for several weeks. doing during the penal arms What impressed me was that the race of the last 10-15 years. lacking in recent Director General of the Swedish PC: What do you regard as times. Prison Service wrote an article the the biggest problems in the following day in Sweden’s leading prison system? national newspaper admitting that RM: Without doubt the size of the population. This something had gone seriously wrong which would be was the issue that the Woolf enquiry wrestled with. Woolf investigated. But he also said that no prison should be elegantly described it as the ‘geological fault line’ running escape proof. It could be. But it was his belief that a prison through our penal system. This fault line is that the courts that was escape proof would not be humane. It would make the decisions about the use of custody but have no not be civilised. It would not be the sort of prison he responsibility for the consequences. And the people would be prepared to run. I could not envisage that being responsible for the consequences have no control over said in Britain. But the Swedish Director General was the uptake. That statement is not entirely true because backed by his political masters We need a bit of that. the probation service has the opportunity to exercise PC: What are the major obstacles to prison limited influence. But broadly it is true. Woolf reform? recommended that there should be a cap on the RM: During six years in Whitehall I have had regular population, and if prisons reached that cap then the meetings with ministers and most of them read the Daily Secretary of State should have to lay an order before Mail and The Sun every morning. If they are getting parliament saying that they have reached the limit and excoriated in the popular press they get very twitchy. I could not take more prisoners. This is similar to the United want to see a bit of conspicuous political leadership and States where there court orders limiting the overcrowding honesty. Prison works, but only in a very limited sense. of certain institutions. This was practically the only While prisoners are inside, not when they come out. And recommendation in the Woolf Report not accepted by most of them come out very soon.

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PC: How do you see the idea of ‘The Big Society’ disparaged volunteers arguing that only ‘we’, the impacting on prisons? How do you see it impacting professionals, can do the business. I don’t agree. There is on young people on the cusp of entering custody? no shortage of volunteers if they are encouraged, RM: One of the great strengths of this country is its supported and trained and I would prefer to see a service voluntary sector with which I have always been heavily model more akin to the Scandinavian approach. That involved. I’m a trustee of several organisations that work would represent what I think might be meant by the Big with kids in trouble. There is an enormous amount the Society. Probation officers and youth offending team voluntary sector can contribute in partnership with the workers don’t generally go to offenders’ homes any state. I would like to see that better encouraged. It’s not a longer and work out of offices that look increasingly like magic bullet and it won’t be easy because politicians tend prisons. It’s not a sensible approach. to see the voluntary sector and volunteers as either a free PC: Are there other ways in which the good or providing services on the charitable sector and citizens cheap. That’s an error. You need to can make a new and different train, support, debrief and nurture contribution to prisons and volunteers for otherwise you don’t I think it s really rehabilitation? retain them. High turnover of important that RM: In 1979, together with personnel is disastrous. This is true Roy King, I provided evidence to of things like mentoring schemes. I offenders who are the May committee suggesting key think its really important that likely to have multiple principles for prisons. One of those offenders who are likely to have principles was ‘normalisation’. multiple problems, friendlessness, problems, Meaning that the Prison Service lacking in achievement, should, when providing services to homelessness, joblessness, drug friendlessness, prisoners, wherever possible use and alcohol problems — they lacking in the same agencies as provide the need positive commitment and same services in the community for continuing relationships with achievement, example literacy programmes. This people they can trust. The is tied up with the Woolf voluntary sector and volunteers homelessness, recommendation of community have a huge amount to contribute. joblessness, drug and prisons, which has never been But it has got to involve a change implemented. The normalisation in attitude by the statutory alcohol problems — principle has to some extent been services. they need positive adopted. Medical services in Iain Duncan-Smith’s Centre prisons are now integrated with for Social Justice, from which a lot commitment and those in the community. We could of this has come, invited me to join have more and better integration a working party on imprisonment. continuing generally if we could get the We produced a report entitled relationships with population down so that prisons Locked Up Potential. Now I am on were genuinely local with prisoners their working party on youth people they can trust. being held within, say, 30-50 miles justice. What is most complained of their community roots. I’d like to about by the voluntary sector is see that happen so that the walls that the Prison and Probation of the prison could be more Services are like Fort Knox. There are so many obstacles. ‘permeable’. There are lots of inspirational people out Like the over elaborate CRB checks. The Probation Service there in the community who could do valuable in England and Wales is different to that in Scandinavia or transformative work with prisoners. I am a trustee of a Japan. There you have professional case managers who group called Dance United. We do contemporary dance do not supervise most offenders but instead supervise programmes with young people. Not because we are volunteers who supervise most offenders. There is a small trying to produce contemporary dancers but because the pool of professionals who allocate cases and support, dance routine is a metaphor for broader learning issues. train and oversee what the volunteers do. The volunteer How do you get kids who can’t read and write aged 15 is only paid expenses and is seeing just one or two and who can’t concentrate or keep still to dance? Dance offenders. I always thought it a paradox that we have serves as a metaphor for discipline, concentration, focus what likes to describe itself as the most ‘professional’ and teamwork, all of which are essential to all work Probation Service in Europe, yet we have the highest discipline and learning. All the results from the imprisonment rate. The point I’m making is that our independent evaluation suggest that kids who do the probation service became so ‘professional’ that it almost programme go back to education and progress to a

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different level. These are huge untapped resources of this suggested that the regime in the affected prisons had sort that could all be part of the big society. But not on the actually improved in the preceding two years. You cheap. cannot be an inspector without realising there is a PC: On resigning from the YJB in 2007 you said shaping of the books. This is not limited to the criminal ‘We’ve got to invest more in early prevention work, justice system. Overall, I am not opposed to targets. But with children who’re starting to get into trouble, they should be modest in number and we should be rather than locking up more and more young spending as much time looking at the quality rather people after the horse has bolted.’ How do you than the quantity. The police targets were not entirely think that preventative aim can be achieved? stupid. But the police got as many ‘brownie points’ for RM: Paradoxically it is being achieved. I resigned arresting and targeting kids engaged in anti-social because I fell out with ministers for two reasons. One was behaviour as they did for spending vast resources over that the population in custody was rising when ministers lengthy periods detecting and prosecuting organised had endorsed a YJB aim to get the population down. I gangs of adult criminals. Not sensible. Another example pleaded with Ministers to make speeches backing that is Devon and Cornwall. There the police trained all their objective. But they failed to do so. The second thing was beat officers in restorative justice so that if kids were out that we were criminalising more and more children. All of control they could go and see the parents to make other things being equal the sure some sort of restorative numbers being criminalised process took place. However, their increased by about 30 per cent The police tended officers got no national ‘brownie during my tenure. The principal points’ for doing it. They were reason was that the to focus on the trained in RJ, but little of it was fixed targets for the police about easiest group to done because it wasn’t offences brought to justice. The organisationally rewarded. Targets police tended to focus on the arrest and are fine if they’re aligned with easiest group to arrest and decent qualitative evaluation. criminalise; kids acting in groups criminalise; kids PC: What role should the on the street. I pleaded for that to acting in groups on commercial sector have in change and got nowhere. You imprisonment? could say I was a failure because the street. I pleaded RM: I’m a pragmatist. When since I resigned significant progress the idea of the private sector has been made on both fronts — for that to change running prisons was first mooted less criminalisation and fewer and got nowhere. by the House of Commons Penal young people in custody. Or you Affairs Committee in the early could say that my message has 1990s I was appalled and opposed now been learnt. That there was a lag effect. That sense it. In retrospect I think the introduction of private eventually prevailed. The police targets have gone. I’m management has brought benefits to the system as a pleased at the progress, although it’s not that dramatic. whole, The Prison Officers Association (POA) was the We’ve got back to where we were in 2001. So we have a most conservative and, recalcitrant union imaginable, long way to go to get to the same level as in the early to opposed to all change, in the 1970s and 1980s. Prison mid 1990s. I think my argument is being heeded and with governors then were frank that the problem of running this spending round I think both of those trends will be prisons was not controlling prisoners but controlling the taken further, which I will welcome. staff. That was why the May Committee was appointed. PC: Prisons have an extensive system of Those problems greatly reduced when the system was managerial monitoring and regulation, including opened up. Competition meant that the state sector had key performance targets, audits, inspection and to start matching the innovative practices of the private surveys of staff and prisoners. Is this affordable or sector. Further, the private sector tended to recruit senior necessary? Should prisons be the subject of managers from the Prison Service and those managers deregulation? didn’t want POA members. I’m not persuaded that we RM: If you set a target people will invariably achieve need to push privatisation further, however. I favour the it. But they will also stop doing things not measured. For model in most other countries of contracting out example, time out of cell. Is something worthwhile particular services. That often represents ‘normalisation’. being done while out of cell? The quality of that is However, some of the best relationships in what I’ll call difficult to capture. Then there is the shaping of the data the old Prison Service were between prisoners and trade for inspectors, which is why the Chief Inspector of officers. They knew their prisoners. They practiced and Prisons has set her own expectations. I remember during taught practical skills. That was a really positive aspect of the Woolf enquiry that the data we had at the time the way things used to be.

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PC: There are plans to freeze public sector pay association of Youth Offending Team managers. This and make fundamental changes to pensions and reversed the policy of my predecessor, Lord Warner, who employee benefits. What impact is this likely to I think saw professional associations as trouble. My line have on existing prison staff and for the future is that staff in the major public services need strong workforce? professional associations to enhance their self respect RM: I’m not really conversant with current rates of and develop their corporate identity. They know about pay. But I don’t think people in the Prison Service are issues relating to practical delivery and what works on overpaid. In some public sector spheres such as the health the ground. They should be pressing for sensible policy service, things have got out of hand and I think we are development. So I deprecated the fact that the national going to have to scale back some of the private sector association of chief probation officers (ACOP) for practices that have been brought into the public sector. example was pretty well lost when the Probation Service Bonus systems, for example, are generally invidious. We became a national service. We’ve seen some idiocies will all have to scale back and there will be promulgated by central management in some of our key understandable resistance. But I don’t think the pay of the services which might have been better resisted by senior Director General is grotesque and staff in a sensible, professional, governor pay rates seem well thought out way. So my view reasonable. I understand that the is that local managers need a new Chief Inspector of Prisons is There should be professional collective voice. If it being paid less than the outgoing operational staff causes a bit of agro for the centre one. That’s probably the direction then good because sometimes things will necessarily have to go representation on the centre introduces measures and I think it’s reasonable. the key policy that are daft, and the people who PC: How do you think know how daft they are the industrial relations in prisons making groups. people who have to implement are likely to develop over the them on the ground. When it next four years? comes to prison design, for RM: They will probably be a bit turbulent. But it can’t example, the people who actually work and manage on be worse than it used to be. I think calm will prevail. I the front line know better what is needed than most doubt big national strikes will happen. I don’t think we are prison architects. Likewise with shift patterns, and so on. Greece. We are closer to the Irish Republic and everyone I think a professional association is good to filter that in the public sector there has had huge cuts in salaries. We knowledge. There should be operational staff won’t go that far and I don’t think we will have a spate of representation on the key policy making groups. There is strikes. All the evidence is that the public is supportive of of course a danger you will get the restrictive practice the fairly stringent measures to get down public debt; the viewpoint. But if there is good quality central argument is about how fast it comes down. management they will listen and ensure that practical PC: How should prison professionals make their experience is represented at the top table in a coherent voices heard in the current debates about prisons fashion. When I became Chair of the YJB I discovered, and imprisonment? Is anyone listening? for example, that we required every YOT in England and RM: If you are immersed in the prisons world you Wales to return mountains of data every quarter which pay attention to everything everyone is saying. But were never analysed. Gathering and returning data is prisons and prisons policy is pretty peripheral to the costly. Unanalysed data represents organisational waste. concerns of the general public. I have always been a It would have been better had those practices been staunch advocate of strong professional associations. challenged more effectively by YOT managers who were When I became Chair of the YJB, I went out of my way very aware and annoyed about sending in data from to encourage the formation and strengthening of an which there was no practical product.

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Interview: Rachel Halford Rachel Halford has been the Director of Women in Prison since July 2010. She is interviewed by Karen Harrison who is a Lecturer in Law, University of Hull.

Rachel Halford is the Director of Women in are bailed, but that is all in theory. The likelihood will Prison and has held this post since July 2010. depend on what happens with the spending review. Rachel worked as the Resettlements Service There is a massive cut for the Ministry of Justice. Manager for four years before becoming the There has been a suggestion that there will be less Director. Women in Prison was founded in 1983 prison spaces and a possible closure of some prisons, by a former prisoner, Chris Tchaikovsky, and but on the basis that there are no empty prisons it is works to reduce the number of women in prison hard to see which ones they will close. The cuts will and limit the damage which prison can cause to effect probation staff and prison resources and this women’s lives. It does this by supporting will have an impact on the running of prisons. The individual women and by campaigning for Corston money was all about reducing the number gender equality in criminal justice policy and of women in prisons; it would be our hope in the practice. It is a national organisation which long term that we would see a large reduction in the works with over 2,000 women each year. numbers of women in prison, but whether we will Services include providing advice and guidance actually see this, who knows. for women whilst they are in prison, and extend KH: Is Britain a broken society and to what to through the gate support. This includes degree do you think prisons can contribute practical support such as finding housing, towards addressing social problems such as reuniting women with their children and helping poverty, unemployment, family breakdown and to source education and employment. They also anti-social behaviour? work to empower women who have experience RH: To an extent yes, I believe that it is. There is of the criminal justice system to get involved a real imbalance between poverty and the money and campaign for change. More information structure within our society and with the new cuts it about the organisation can be found at will be even bigger. There is no middle ground www.womeninprison.org.uk anymore. With regards to the criminal justice system, KH: How do you regard our relatively high people have no chance to change their lives and national imprisonment rate? consequently they end up on the revolving door of RH: For women it doesn’t need to be that high. the criminal justice system. There is an There are approximately 4,200 women in prison at intergenerational impact with families, for example the moment, and of those only about 1,200 need to women from a low income family may resort to petty be there. We estimate there are about 80 women crime such as shoplifting in order to make ends meet prisoners who will probably never leave prison and — she might then receive a custodial sentence and there are about 1,000 women there for public safety subsequently her children could be placed in care and and rehabilitation; but the rest don’t need to be there she could lose her home. For these children there is and their sentences could be addressed differently often no chance for them to get out of care. Without within a community setting. A huge number of resources put into addressing the root causes of women are in prison for minor offences and pose no poverty this kind of family will never be given the risk to the public. chance to change. If they didn’t send women to KH: How likely do you think it is that this prison then many of these social problems wouldn’t rate will be reduced? How desirable do you exist for their families and the government would think this is? save a lot of money. Women on longer sentences may RH: There has been a big push to reduce the find support with education and employment — but number of women in prison. The Ministry of Justice this help could be provided in the community, where funding, £15.6 million, which came off the back of we would then be in a position to address some of the Corston Report, has been put into women’s the root causes of offending. It costs £53,000 per centres with a focus on supporting alternatives to year to send a woman to prison if she hasn’t got custody. In theory we should see a reduction in the children. If she has got children then this can rise to number of women who receive custodial sentences £70-80,000 per year. Alternatives in the community and are remanded, and perhaps more women who cost about an eighth of this, the money saved could

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be used to address some of the root causes of RH: I don’t know that it has. Since I started offending. Public perception of offenders also affects working for Women in Prison, there are perhaps more this — the government wants to stay in power and so services available with more voluntary agencies being I have huge concerns as to whether anything will allowed to work with the women in prison, so drastically change. accessibility to services has got better, but feedback KH: To what degree do you think it will be from the women would suggest that fundamentally possible to achieve a ‘rehabilitation revolution’, not a lot has changed. There is more emphasis on significantly reducing reoffending, given the women specific services, prison and probation staff current squeeze on resources? now have training on how to work with women RH: We have the sentencing review to come, offenders and there is recognition of differences, but and in order for anything to change it will need to there are no dramatic changes. Some lifers say it is come from the top down. If that doesn’t happen more difficult for them, regarding different there will be no rehabilitation revolution. Our biggest restrictions. There is more emphasis on education and concern is whether within it, employment when women there will be gender specific leave prison, but this does elements. You can’t have a depend on what type of revolution which is generic There is more sentence we are talking about because men and women have emphasis on as women receiving shorter different needs. It sounds good sentences are unable to access at the moment, but I have to women specific this support. We have seen say I don’t have a lot of faith. some positive changes in the There is someone coming in services, prison and responses to the voluntary who has something new to say probation staff now sector working in prisons, but and perhaps this will lead to how it will change in the future fewer women being remanded have training on I am unsure. There has been a and more alternatives in the real enthusiasm for looking at community. The Liberals said in how to work with women in the criminal justice their manifesto that there women offenders system, and as an organisation, would be no sentences under in lobbying capacity it has been six months but where did that and there is great that this has been on the go? The other issue is, bearing recognition of agenda because of the Corston in mind the cuts, whether there report. The funding made are the necessary resources for differences, but available because of the Corston this revolution to go forward? report, which we received some And how do they convince the there are no of, fed into community projects public? My hope is that dramatic changes. and that has been fantastic, but Kenneth Clarke will come in when that funding comes to an with something quite radical. end we do not yet know We need gender specific services. We need risk whether we will be able to sustain this work. assessment tools and programmes which have been KH: What do you regard as the biggest designed for women specifically. The only current problems in the women’s prison system? example of this is the CARE programme which has RH: The fact that women are still there when recently been accredited for women. This works they don’t need to be there — that is the biggest using narrative therapy but importantly Women in problem. If we accept that these women are there, on Prison are involved as mentor/advocates and work a day to day basis it is the lack of resources and the with the women for up to two years. A fact that there are still male prison officers working in concentration on through the gate services which women’s prisons. If you look at recent prison reports, has helped to make this programme effective. At the for example the Holloway report, there are still moment of the 28 women involved in the numerous women reporting that they have been programme, two have been recalled for breach of sexual advanced or assaulted. There needs to be their license conditions, but none have re-offended. recognition that women’s needs are different. This This is a massive achievement. needs to be fed through, so all women’s prisons are KH: How do you think that the actual staffed by women. This might sound radical or prisoner experience has shifted in recent years? dramatic but if we are to make a difference and if we How is it likely to change in the next few want to ensure that women are not intimidated, as years? many women come from backgrounds of domestic

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violence and sexual violence, it is necessary. The key voices. It’s about finances to enable us to maintain things are resources and women staff. One good and increase what we are doing. thing is the links that prisons are now making with KH: Prisons have an extensive system of voluntary agencies, it is moving in a really good way. managerial monitoring and regulation including KH: What are the major obstacles to prison key performance targets, audits, inspection and reform? surveys of staff and prisoners. Is this affordable RH: The initial cost and public perception are the or necessary? Should prisons be the subject of biggest obstacles. The public needs to be educated. deregulation? They need to look at the issues, look at what these RH: There is an impact on us. Because prison and women go through, look at the root causes and probation resources are so limited and they have this realise they are not what the public perceive them to mass of targets it becomes more difficult for them to be. They only see the horror cases like Baby P, the work with us because it is more work for them. stories which sell newspapers stories. They don’t see Despite this, they do work with us and in some the stories of the other 3,750 women in prison. So it prisons we have great relations, but to establish this is about education. The biggest difficulty is definitely has often taken time because they are worried about public perception. what more work they will need KH: How do you see the to do. They are put under idea of ‘The Big Society’ immense pressure to achieve impacting on prison? outcomes with small amounts of RH: We are waiting for it to I find it very bizarre resources. It can also affect our play out. At the moment we are outcomes. ideally all going to work that a commercial KH: What role should the together, but there is a lack of company would commercial sector have in funding in the statutory sector. I imprisonment? haven’t quite got my head want to make RH: I find it very bizarre that around where all of this money a commercial company would is going to come from in the money on want to make money on ‘big society’. Who is going to imprisoning imprisoning people. It doesn’t sit control the money? Is there comfortably with me at all. more money available for the people. It doesn’t What happens if it becomes voluntary sector or will it be the payment by results? We are statutory sector that will control sit comfortably looking at what is going to it? It is strange that statutory with me at all. happen with local health organisations now need us, this authorities and payment by makes us popular and that is results, for example with mental good but we are concerned health care. We work with about the conditions that might women in HMP Peterborough be attached to this. Personally, I think the vision is a and HMP Bronzefield we have great relations with the bit of a cop out — let’s get lots of volunteers to do prison and great access and we are able to provide the work. There is a lack of commitment. Cameron women with some really great services. But I don’t says it’s a big society and we should work together, agree with the possibility of the commercial sector but if we consider the cuts which will affect young becoming so dominant. people, and those on low income, does he really KH: To what extent do you think private think that we will all be happy volunteering together? sector competition has altered the terrain of In light of the cuts and without further information it imprisonment? feels as if the big society is about patronising us. It RH: I don’t know that it has in the women’s feels really controlling. estate because it has taken them a long time to come KH: Are there ways in which the charitable up with anything that matches what was being sector and citizens can make a new and different offered by HM Prison Service. The staff they contribution to prisons and rehabilitation? employed were not always trained as well as those RH: We make a really valuable contribution at from HM Prison Service. It may be different now, but present. If we can continue with this, it’s about when they were set up it was appalling, especially for partnership — working with statutory services and the men who had no experience of working with bringing it back to the women who we work with women — for example a man who was previously a and who we work for, to be able to provide the best security guard who was working with women, it is all possible service which we can and a platform for their about control and he has no idea about the needs of

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women. It is frightening. He has no idea about what first time around when the Corston report was they have been through. written, but women are still dying in prison. We know KH: How do you think prison work in that it takes something drastic and sad to happen prisons is likely to develop? before women are listened too. With the current cuts RH: If the rehabilitation revolution comes into this will make everything even harder. play and everyone has to go to work then industry KH: What progress do you think has been are going to be very pleased with the cheap labour. made since the Corston Report? Women can and do work for the whole day if they RH: There has been the money, which has been chose to and there is provision for them to work. fantastic. This is money which has gone into Kenneth Clarke recently said that their wage would alternatives to custody. We were lucky to secure two only increase from £7 to £20 per week, as part of grants. It has given us the chance to evidence that the rehabilitation revolution, and that every prisoner there are alternatives to custody for women. In would work. Perhaps this was London we work with women said to change public who are on remand, on short perception — look at what the sentences or on license, they are offenders are giving back. He We need more work the hardest group to engage. could be politically paving the projects where We have worked with more way for something else. The than 2,000 women this year, public may see that offenders women get paid some of who are difficult to are feeding something back access and require an enormous into the economy and that they properly and pay amount of one-to-one work but are being paid a little bit of tax. The money they it has been successful and it’s money; but this isn’t good for been great that we have been the women involved. It is like a currently receive is given the opportunity to prove labour camp. We need more that it can be successful. There work projects where women an insult and is has also been more emphasis on get paid properly and pay tax. degrading; it is like alternatives in the community The money they currently such as community payback, but receive is an insult and is child pocket money. Women in Prison is not about degrading; it is like child pocket Also for many punishment and we won’t be, money. Also for many women but it is better than prison. in prison it just reinforces their women in prison it There are a few women’s belief that they are worthless. I centres but there are no small can see where they are coming just reinforces their custodial units which Baroness from and why they are doing it belief that they Corston recommended. This but it will have an appalling appears to have been forgotten effect on women. are worthless. unless we need to prove that it KH: How can Women in works first. Some women’s Prison get their voice heard prisons are mansion houses on in the current debates about prison and lots of land, these could be sold and money could be imprisonment? Is anyone listening? used to set up small units. RH: We feed into anything and everything we KH: What other areas still need to be possibly can. We write to politicians and newspapers improved in women’s prisons? and we feed into any review or consultation — RH: The obvious answer is that most women although I have this horrible feeling that nobody ever should not be there, but apart from that it is about reads it and the decisions have already been made being able to access the services which they need. It but we have to engage with this. As mentioned is about gender specific staff, accessibility to previously we have, over the last few years, had an resources, but it’s about them not being there. If any inside track because women were on the justice intervention needs to take place it can take place in agenda and as a consequence have had to do less the community. It’s about women not being lobbying, however this has changed and we are now separated from their children. There are some actively lobbying for change. We have a service user mother and baby units but there are limited spaces group and it’s about policymakers hearing their voices and the process is very hard — there are lots of and this is really important. It’s hard to know whether women who have their children taken away from people listen. It’s horrendous that it took a large them when they are born. The problem is what number of deaths in custody for them to listen the imprisonment perpetuates.

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KH: Do you think that women may be agreed, this is a direct impact of the spending cuts. It particularly affected by the spending cuts? is difficult to know how it will work but I think it will RH: Most women will be affected, but be based on more joined-up working. Going back to particularly those on low income, where often the big society I think the statutory sector will need to women who will end up in prison come from. In work in a more joined up way with us. For example society, generally, women would be affected more we have a pilot criminal justice project in Manchester because that is what historically happens. So the which works with women in the courts and police obvious answer is yes. custody suites, and works with the women to help KH: How do you think the changes in public them secure bail, we also support them and provide spending will affect the particular role of them with a tailored support plan. We also, where organisations such as your own? possible feed into the pre-sentence reports which this RH: I hope that what it will do is link us up more can lead to a woman not being remanded. We’ve had with statutory services. At the moment we are funded fantastic results in Manchester and we are now going by London councils for a few of our projects. Some of live in London. our projects may be stopped earlier than originally

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Reviews

Book Review question penal legitimacy and call abolitionism questions both what Controversial Issues in Prisons into question the use of prisons. actions are defined as ‘crimes’ and By David Scott and Helen Codd The controversial issues discussed in what the purpose of policing and Publisher: Open University Press the chapters of this book include punishment should be. Abolitionists (2010) mental health; women in prison; argue the prison population ISBN: 978-0-335-22303-9 children in prison; racism; self- includes a disproportionate number (paperback) inflicted deaths; sex offenders; drug of people at the margins of society 978-0-335-22304-6 (hardback) taking; and prisoners’ families. not because they are inherently Price: £21.99 (paperback) Each chapter presents a case more criminal but because their £60.00 (hardback) study examining the problems of problematic behaviour and the imprisonment. There is no attempt harms they cause are more likely to As the criminal justice system to provide a comprehensive be the defined as crimes. They go expands, so does the whole resource for the students reading on to maintain that the harmful industry around it including the this book instead it has a clear and behaviour of powerful groups such provision of higher education and clearly acknowledged ideological as fraud, tax evasion, pollution, training. Criminology as an intent. Whether or not the reader health and safety breaches and undergraduate subject has grown agrees with this perspective will state crimes largely go unpunished. dramatically as the future personnel vary, however, it is indisputable that Abolitionists conclude that ‘crime of the police, probation, prisons this perspective deserves to be and punishment’ are constructs and other service providers grows. heard not only in mainstream which reflect and reinforce power Along with this has come a growth academia but also in mainstream and inequality in society. in the number of textbooks society. There is no reason that any Accordingly, the abolition of prisons published in order to support and policy should be taken for granted is part of a broader political and direct those students. With so many and accepted without question social position advocating a more on the market, each publication including the use of imprisonment. equal and fair society. The value of needs to be distinct in order to Scott and Codd deserve to be this book for those who work in successful. The first question that applauded for presenting their case prisons is to provide a resource that arises when reading this text book, with such clarity and providing a confronts them with a radical written by David Scott and Helen book that is ideologically coherent critique and challenges many Codd of the University of Central and accessible to students some of assumptions about the benefits of Lancashire, is what makes this whom will become future criminal prisons. Those who work in the different from any other textbook justice workers. It is through criminal justice system and exercise available at the moment? The planting such seeds that they no state power should question answer to that question is clear. doubt hope that future harvests will themselves about what they are What makes this book different is be reaped. doing and the harms they may be that rather than offering a sober Some people working inside causing as well as celebrating the and comprehensive text, it prisons might ask why they should good that they do. Only by asking advocates and justifies the abolition read a book that advocates those difficult questions can we of imprisonment. abolition. The answer to that seek the truth about what we do. Scott and Codd take on their question lies in a fuller In its final chapter this book task by using the medium of understanding of what penal discusses abolitionist alternatives ‘controversial issues in prisons’. abolitionism is all about. It is not, as which for this reviewer raises a They define a controversial issue as some many assume, an anarchic question about whether the having three aspects. First, they are argument that prisons should be strategy adopted by abolitionists is topical and emotive, that is they closed and those who are violent effective. At the moment they are a address concerns about prisons simply roam free to prey on the minority group: largely academic today and they arouse strong weak and those who break the laws (although with some grassroots and feelings. Second, they reveal go unpunished. It is instead an pressure group support) whose competing interpretations — argument that is based on a deeper ideas are largely discounted in ideological, political and understanding of how crime and political and professional circles. philosophical beliefs about crime, punishment are social This is due in part to those in justice and wider society. Third, they constructions. In other words positions of power who are

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naturally resistant to any challenge, Book Review second area is the development of ignoring and marginalising radical Turning the corner: Beyond social impact bonds, where discourse. It is also due to the incarceration and re-offending investors support projects aimed at strategies adopted by abolitionists By Anton Shalupanov and reducing reoffending and receive a themselves. Rushanara Ali return on their investment based It is particularly significant that Publisher: The Young Foundation upon the results. Although it is not outside of a fairly limited circle the (2010) clear what appetite there will be in arguments can be difficult for ISBN: 978-1-905551-15-6 the market for this practice, it is at people to understand. Whilst it is (paperback) least an attempt to attract new clear what abolitionists are against, Price: £10.00 (paperback) finance into approaches aimed at it is not always clear what they are reducing reoffending rather than arguing for. Advancing a negative Trial and error in criminal simply expanding control. This argument can illicit some nods of justice reform: Learning from innovation has already been taken approval but rarely moves people to failure up and is being piloted at HMP action. Also, abolitionists are at By Greg Berman and Aubrey Fox Peterborough as part of the times exclusive. In this book, and in Publisher: The Urban Institute Press government’s ‘rehabilitation others by leading abolitionists, (2010) revolution’. The third area that the distance is always put between ISBN: 978-0-87766-767-4 authors focus on is barriers to abolitionists and what they describe (paperback) released prisoners gaining as ‘liberal reformers’ who want to Price: $26.50 (paperback) employment. They propose some reduce the use of imprisonment available from USA only significant changes to current and make prisons more humane policy, including a more limited but do not necessarily try to take on These two books focus on approach to criminal records checks the whole social super-structure at innovation in criminal justice. Whilst and the requirement to declare the same time. These are groups Turning the corner looks to the convictions. They also propose that by collaborating would gain future with ideas about improving improved transitional support from strength from each other. Instead, a the effectiveness of rehabilitation, mentors and potential employers, divisive discourse exists which Trial and error in criminal justice helping released prisoners to seems to place a doctrinal purity reform looks to the past and the successfully move from prison into above practical change. If lessons that can be learned and employment. abolitionists are to more than a applied. Together they set out the This book poses some valuable grit in the shoe of society opportunities and pitfalls and challenging questions and proposes then focussing on a positive provide important ideas for policy some imaginative new ideas. These alternative and making a few more makers and practitioners. are largely ideas that could go with friends might not be a bad place to Turning the corner was the grain of current political start. produced by Anton Shalupanov, thinking. The idea of social impact This book is an excellent Programme Leader for justice bonds is already being piloted and introduction to abolitionist thinking innovation at the Young the encouragement for innovative that will stimulate students and Foundation, and Rushanara Ali, approaches is also being embraced. provide them with an important Associate Director of the Young As a result, the Young Foundation perspective. It also provides a Foundation and now a Labour MP. and the UK Centre for Justice challenge to prisons that is Their work focuses on developing Innovation are organisations that recommended to current new ideas aimed at reducing could gain traction and become practitioners. This will be reoffending. They propose three increasingly important in shaping uncomfortable, will evoke strong key innovations that they argue will policy and practice. emotional reactions and will lead have a beneficial impact. The first is The second book, Trial and the thoughtful reader to ask some that innovation should be more error in criminal justice reform, has difficult questions of the system and widely encouraged and developed. been written by Greg Berman and of their own role. That is a step that They suggest that this could be Aubrey Fox, both of whom work at many are unwilling to take, but done by establishing an the Centre of Court Innovation in carrying out the ultimate state independent UK Centre for Justice New York, an organisation that sanction should never be Innovation. This Centre would work promotes, develops and evaluates comfortable or easy. with a small number of projects and criminal justice projects and is the design, pilot and evaluate them. In model for the proposed UK Centre Jamie Bennett is Governor of this way they would be a source of for Justice Innovation. They take HMP Morton Hall. new ideas and practices. The five case studies in order to draw

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lessons about the ways in which on a small scale and that a to reduce their prison populations projects can fail and use this in proliferation of diverse approaches and seek alternatives both by using order to understand how to avoid is more likely to be successful than non-custodial penalties and this in the future. The projects are searching for large scale national investing in high crime varied and include initiatives aimed projects to provide a magic bullet. neighbourhoods. Such a policy at reducing gun crime and tackling These two books are a rich would have been unthinkable only drugs. In all of the cases there was and valuable source of new ideas a few years ago. some success although this was and are recommended to policy In this book Sandra L. often followed by subsequent makers and practitioners. Their Resodihardjo of Leiden University, failure. The authors draw eight key approach is timely and in many analyses how institutional crises lessons from these experiences, ways they are in tune with the can drive fundamental change, including the importance of direction of travel in government drawing upon the experiences of working with local cultures, politics policy. However, they also the Dutch and British prison and organisations, being realistic demonstrate that in realising those systems in the 1990s. During that about expectations and success aims there are significant time, the British prison system criteria, being reflective and paying challenges and that professionals experienced first the widespread attention to detail. would do well to learn those riots of 1990 and the Woolf report The case studies in this book lessons of the past before seeking that called for a more humane are fascinating and most to implement emerging new ideas. prison system balanced between experienced professionals will security, control and justice. This recognise the potential pitfalls Jamie Bennett is Governor of was followed by the high profile described and will have seen HMP Morton Hall. escapes of category A prisoners promising projects undermined by from Whitemoor and Parkhurst in similar mistakes. The most 1994 and 1995, which led to the important contributions that this priority of “‘security, security, book makes, though, are in security”’. During the years 1992- thinking about creating structures Book Review 3, the Dutch system also that foster and support innovation. Crisis and change in the British experienced a spate of escapes and The first issue that comes out clearly and Dutch Prison Services: increasing pressure on prison is that in an innovative Understanding crisis-reform places. This led to the environment, projects are allowed processes abandonment of their one- to fail. Innovation is a process of By Sandra L. Resodihardjo prisoner-one-cell policy and the trial and error, ideas need to be Publisher: Ashgate (2009) introduction of more secure tested out and experiments ISBN: 978-0-7546-7549-5 regimes. conducted before working (hardback) Resodihardjo describes these solutions are found. This is an Price: £55.00 (hardback) reforms in terms of a drastic important issue for developments deviation from existing structure such as social impact bonds where The global credit crunch and and changed the paradigm of failure risks significant financial loss the subsequent recession have led imprisonment. They also came and there is therefore the possibility to the role of the state in providing about as a result of crises where that an initiative aimed at fostering services and what citizens can institutional failures led to innovation actually results in reasonable expect to be increased political, media and providers playing it safe. The second profoundly questioned. In the UK public scrutiny. These failures are issue is that innovation is often the coalition government has analysed in this book and small scale and localised. This continually reiterated that the Resodihardjo illustrates how the highlights that professionals need changes in public spending that normal constraints to change fell both the discretion and the are required to reduce the deficit away as the crises intensified. resources in order to develop and are going to fundamentally alter These barriers include individual try new ideas. It also highlights that the nature of the public sector. In interests and resistance, initiatives are often successful other countries too there have organisational routines, culture because of individuals, the local been dramatic reverse of policy and values, and political concerns context and the community direction in order to respond to including policy inheritance and response and this cannot always be financial imperatives. In relation to resources. She also illustrates how replicated consistently on a large prisons, both California and New changes are pushed forward by scale. Innovation is therefore York, previously at the forefront of entrepreneurial action as something that is best developed mass imprisonment, have sought individuals seek to capitalise upon

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the opportunity for change and understanding contemporary discussed about these issues in shifts in the policy makers’ events. Where the book gets most future research, this book opens approach as they seek to respond interesting is where it touches the way for that exploration. to intensified calls for action. upon why some reforms could be This book that will be of This book provides excellent described as socially and politically interest to those who lived and descriptions of the crises that progressive, such as the Woolf worked through the tumultuous engulfed the Dutch and British reforms, whilst others, such as the period of the 1990s, but equally it systems during the 1990s. Dutch reforms, could be described has value to those who are seeking Although the events in the UK will as regressive. Here, Resodihardjo to understand where the prison be familiar to readers, those in the highlights both the importance of system is now and how it may Dutch system will be less so, but individual actors, who impose a develop in the immediate future. are no less riveting. The book also clear sense of direction, and the manages to provide a scholarly structural factors such as the Jamie Bennett is Governor of analysis of the process of change prevailing political culture and HMP Morton Hall. which is interesting both from a preceding public discourse. Whilst historical perspective and in there is more that could be

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The Prison Governor: Theory and Practice by Shane Bryans and David Wilson Describes in one closely argued book, the history of imprisonment, the management of prison staff, the understanding of prisoners, the developing role of the Governor and some well governed prisons.

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52 Prison Service Journal Issue 193 W 344 PSJ 193 Jan 2011 Complete:Prison Service Journal 30/12/2010 14:05 Page 53

Purpose and editorial arrangements

The Prison Service Journal is a peer reviewed journal published by HM Prison Service of England and Wales. Its purpose is to promote discussion on issues related to the work of the Prison Service, the wider criminal justice system and associated fields. It aims to present reliable information and a range of views about these issues.

The editor is responsible for the style and content of each edition, and for managing production and the Journal’s budget. The editor is supported by an editorial board — a body of volunteers all of whom have worked for the Prison Service in various capacities. The editorial board considers all articles submitted and decides the out- line and composition of each edition, although the editor retains an over-riding discretion in deciding which arti- cles are published and their precise length and language.

From May 2005 selected articles from each edition are available in the Resource Centre of the HM Prison Service website. This is available at www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk

Circulation of editions and submission of articles

Six editions of the Journal, printed at HMP Leyhill, are published each year with a circulation of approximately 6,500 per edition. The editor welcomes articles which should be up to c.4,000 words and submitted by email to [email protected] or as hard copy and on disk to Prison Service Journal, c/o Print Shop Manager, HMP Leyhill, Wotton-under-Edge, Gloucestershire, GL12 8HL. All other correspondence may also be sent to the Editor at this address or to [email protected].

Footnotes are preferred to endnotes, which must be kept to a minimum. All articles are subject to peer review and may be altered in accordance with house style. No payments are made for articles.

Subscriptions

The Journal is distributed to every Prison Service establishment in England and Wales. Individual members of staff need not subscribe and can obtain free copies from their establishment. Subscriptions are invited from other individuals and bodies outside the Prison Service at the following rates, which include postage:

United Kingdom single copy £5.00 one year’s subscription £25.00 (organisations or individuals in their professional capacity) £18.00 (private individuals)

Overseas single copy £7.00 one year’s subscription £35.00 (organisations or individuals in their professional capacity) £25.00 (private individuals)

Orders for subscriptions (and back copies which are charged at the single copy rate) should be sent with a cheque made payable to ‘HM Prison Service’ to Prison Service Journal, c/o Print Shop Manager, HMP Leyhill, Wotton-under-Edge, Gloucestershire, GL12 8BT.

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JOURNALPRISON SERVICE

This edition includes:

Interviews with:

Crispin Blunt Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Prisons and Youth Justice

Juliet Lyon Director of the Prison Reform Trust

Nick Hardwick HM Chief Inspector of Prisons

Richard Garside Director of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies

Michael Spurr Chief Executive of the National Offender Management Service