Thursday Volume 493 4 June 2009 No. 85

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 4 June 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; Tel: 0044 (0) 208876344; e-mail: [email protected] 373 4 JUNE 2009 374

We are strong supporters of the United Nations House of Commons framework convention on climate change adaptation fund, and we have given a considerable sum of money Thursday 4 June 2009 to the climate resilience programme, which is enabling countries to adapt. In Zambia, we are helping people living on the Zambezi flood plain to protect their crops The House met at half-past Ten o’clock against damage caused by flooding; in Lesotho, we are helping people establish small gardens to make them PRAYERS less vulnerable to food shortage caused by drought; and in Bangladesh, we are helping people to raise their homes on plinths to protect them from the seasonal [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] rains. This country has led the way on climate change, not only on mitigation but on adaptation. Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Oral Answers to Questions First, I congratulate the Secretary of State. I want to ask the Minister whether the Government’s policy is based on ideology or science. She knows that for a theory to be scientific, it must be capable of being ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE refuted by the evidence. Given that we have had three decades of rising temperatures, followed by a decade of The Secretary of State was asked— stable and slightly falling temperatures worldwide, how many decades would she require before she were convinced Global Population that the theory on which she is committing £400 billion of taxpayers’ money might be slightly wrong? 1. Martin Linton (Battersea) (Lab): What recent Joan Ruddock: The right hon. Gentleman is very discussions he has had with his international fond of quoting rather alarmist figures— counterparts on the effects of climate change on the global population; and if he will make a statement. Mr. Lilley: They are your figures. [277918] Joan Ruddock: Indeed, they are our figures, but we The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy are talking about a sum of money that will be spent and Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): May I first apologise over more than 40 years, whereas the right hon. Gentleman for the absence of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of presents it as if it were all for today. The issue that he State this morning? His partner, Justine, gave birth to a has raised about science is very important. Scientists son on Tuesday, so he is taking paternity leave—thanks, have been predicting for decades the effects of global of course, to the policy of this Government. warming, and the predicted effects are indeed happening. He needs to look at sea level rises, for example, which To answer the question, the Secretary of State has have been consistent, and the predictions are very extreme frequent discussions with his international counterparts indeed. Where he claims that the temperature has gone on the effects of climate change on the global population. down, that is very much a short-term phenomenon. Adaptation to the impacts of climate change is a key When the period of temperature rises is measured against priority for international climate change negotiations, all historic records, it is very unusual. The consensus and we recognise that the effects of climate change will opinion of world scientists is that it extremely likely that have the greatest impacts on the poorest and most all these effects are man-made. Even if he does not vulnerable countries. believe in the science, he should believe in taking action to adapt to what is happening—whatever the causes Martin Linton: I congratulate the Secretary of State might be. We are quite clear as a Government that the and his partner on this new addition to world population. consensus of world scientists is that this is a man-made Has my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary read Kofi phenomenon. We must take proper steps to tackle the Annan’s report for the Global Humanitarian Forum, continuing rise in greenhouse gas emissions, and we will showing that climate change is now responsible for do so. 300,000 deaths a year—98 per cent. of them in developing countries? Has she also seen the forecast that if emissions Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): Quite are not brought under control, climate change will right too. My hon. Friend will know that the Waxman- create 75 million refugees by 2034? Markey Bill on tackling climate change is working its way through the US Congress, but it has already been Joan Ruddock: I thank my hon. Friend for bringing watered down somewhat—and it has not yet reached that most important report to the House’s attention. I the Senate. That suggests that the Bill could be watered have indeed seen the report and the figures that he has down more. mentioned. We have absolutely no doubt that that adds Considering that background, if we are to have higher to the pressure that we all as part of the international ambitions in the EU based on a deal, should we not community properly need to absorb and bring to the have benchmarks in place—I do not ask my hon. Friend discussions at Copenhagen at the end of this year. We to reveal those now, as they are obviously a matter of will not get a global deal unless we can help developing negotiation—to say that other annexe 1 countries, which countries to adapt to the effects of climate change, one hopes the United States will soon become, should which are already happening and are, of course, the have higher standards and a better approach than that responsibility of the developed world. represented by the Waxman-Markey Bill? 375 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 376

Joan Ruddock: We are most optimistic about the Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) by saying that we commitment made by President Obama, who has said cannot go on acidifying the sea because the changes in that the US will lead in the climate change talks. His that environment have gone way too far? That powerful Secretary of State has said that the US is determined to argument for reducing carbon dioxide emissions is rarely see that the talks produce a result, and we are confident used. that it will play a proper part. Mr. O’Brien: My hon. Friend is right that we need to My hon. Friend is correct about the Bill—it has been ensure that we are aware of the acidification of the sea somewhat watered down—and we are encouraging the and that we recognise it as part of the overall development Administration to have the greatest possible ambition: of a transport and environment policy. they are engaged; they accept the science; and they have negotiators with a positive approach. We believe that The Government have been clear about the fact that we will be able to achieve a global deal. It will be we want real investment to go into developing vehicles important that there is a commitment by the US to that are less polluting—indeed, are low polluting—of make the emissions reduction that is required by 2050, the atmosphere. That is why we put £100 million into which is 80 per cent. for developed countries. Already, supporting research and demonstration of new vehicles the President has said that the US can make that and £250 million has been announced for consumer commitment. It is in a difficult situation because of the incentives in coming years for lower-carbon vehicles. history under the previous Administration. We understand There is a £20 million procurement of low-carbon vehicles that, but there is a great deal of good will. This is a for the Government and a £2.3 billion package of matter of negotiation, and we will continue to press the support for the automotive sector in the downturn, Administration for the greatest possible ambition. which has been tailored to support the development of low-carbon products. Road Transport (Emissions) Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): Does the Minister 2. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): agree that his Government’s proposal to expand Heathrow What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary will inevitably lead to increased road transport and of State for Transport on the reduction of carbon increased carbon dioxide emissions? dioxide emissions arising from road transport. [277919] Mr. O’Brien: As part of the process of developing The Minister of State, Department of Energy and our transport policy, particularly in relation to Heathrow, Climate Change (Mr. Mike O’Brien): I join in the we have ensured that we have clear targets for emissions congratulations offered to my right hon. Friend the reduction. Clearly, bringing aviation into our climate Secretary of State and his partner on the birth of their change policies is part of that. In relation to road son. There are regular discussions between Departments. transport and Heathrow, we want to ensure that we Indeed, on 19 May, the Secretaries of State discussed develop policies on hybrid and electric vehicles that will carbon budgets. reduce overall emissions from motor vehicles in the coming decades. Andrew Selous: The Minister may be aware of the Chinese company BYD, which is spending billions on Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): Will the Minister developing the battery-powered cars of the future. My of State convey our warmest congratulations to the concern is that the UK may miss out on that important Secretary of State and Justine on the birth of their son? market. Will he join me in congratulating Vauxhall on We wish them much joy during the years ahead. I am its superb Ampera model, which most people will be lost in admiration for the meticulousness of Ed’s planning: able to drive most of the time while producing hardly he has provided himself with an excuse to go to ground any carbon emissions? What action are the Government this weekend that is even more convincing than John taking to install more public recharging points around Major’s toothache. the country to enable this incredibly important market Can the Minister of State say which electric vehicles for the future to develop here? will qualify for the £5,000 voucher announced the week before the Budget? Mr. O’Brien: A number of companies are taking the initiative to develop electric vehicles and hybrid vehicles, Mr. O’Brien: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for which are plug-in and rechargeable. We need to encourage his congratulations, which I will pass on to my right such development not only in the UK, but worldwide. I hon. Friend the Secretary of State. We will consult congratulate Vauxhall on the work it has been doing shortly on how the funding that we have announced will and on the Volt, which is another General Motors be best distributed. We want the growth in the use of product. That company has problems, but at least some electric vehicles to be a key area for development. The real research and development work is being done. initiative will help to put electric vehicles within the Increasingly, not just the energy companies, but some reach of ordinary motorists, by providing help worth petrol and diesel suppliers, are recognising that they between £2,000 and £5,000 towards buying the first need to install plug-in points so that cars can be recharged. electric and plug-in hybrid cars when they hit the showroom, We are seeing the beginning of what, over the coming which we expect to occur from 2011 onwards, although decade, is likely to become a vastly expanding industry, some companies are indicating that an earlier date with thousands of such vehicles coming on to our might be possible. roads. Greg Clark: Is it not the truth that no electric vehicle Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): Is there is available now, or will even be available in 2011, that not a powerful argument for not producing carbon will qualify for the voucher? If we want to build support dioxide from transport emissions? May I alleviate the for a low-carbon economy, is it not essential that we concerns of sceptics such as the right hon. Member for avoid such gimmicks and stunts? 377 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 378

Mr. O’Brien: I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman sees emissions. However, we accept that there is much more the development of electric vehicles and support for to be done. We recently engaged in a major consultation consumers to purchase those vehicles as merely a stunt. on a heat and energy saving strategy, which will bring There are already electric vehicles that are fine for short about improvements in millions of houses over the next trips in the city rather than long-distance trips. We are few years. prepared to put in place the incentives that will ensure that the technology improves—it appears that he would Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) not do that were he ever in government. However, we (LD): May I ask that our best wishes and congratulations are taking steps now to provide funding for research be passed to the Secretary of State, his partner and their and development, and to identify funding, which the extended family on the birth of their little boy? car makers and manufacturers will know will be in Ministers know that so far we have performed very place, to provide incentives for consumers in future to poorly in relation to energy efficiency in domestic properties. buy the vehicles we want manufacturers to produce. According to a ministerial answer, only one in 100 homes The hon. Member for South-West Bedfordshire (Andrew meets the required standards. The Minister has just Selous) was looking for congratulations to Vauxhall for referred to the range of existing programmes. Will she developing a new type of vehicle, which might well—we reaffirm the importance of the leadership of the European must wait and see—meet some of the criteria. If the Union and the European Parliament in pushing forward Government were to change, however, it appears that energy efficiency? Given that this is also local election Vauxhall might well be severely disadvantaged, and his day, will she consider our proposal for the establishment constituents would be disadvantaged by re-electing him. of a single central Government agency to bring all the Conservative Front Benchers seem to be abandoning policies together, and for local councils across the United Vauxhall and its workers. Kingdom to roll out a programme—arranged locally, Domestic Buildings (Energy Efficiency) but supported by national Government—to ensure that every home is a warm home within 10 years? 3. Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the energy efficiency Joan Ruddock: The Government are always happy to of domestic and commercial buildings in the UK; and consider any proposals on these issues from any of the if he will make a statement. [277920] Opposition parties. If the hon. Gentleman examines the heat and energy saving strategy, he will see that it The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy includes options that are not dissimilar to his proposal. and Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): The energy efficiency As I have said, we believe that we need much greater of individual domestic and non-domestic buildings is drive and much more co-ordination. We have learned assessed primarily through energy performance certificates, from many of the programmes that will come on stream which are required for all buildings when constructed, in the autumn. The community energy saving programme sold or let. The heat and energy saving consultation, will enable us for the first time to deal with the areas in published in February, sought evidence about energy greatest need, house by house and street by street. It will efficiency in non-domestic buildings and asked for views give us a basis on which to introduce programmes that on potential policy responses. We are now considering will make the whole population energy-efficient over the responses to the consultation. the next couple of decades. Dr. Lewis: Is it not a fact that between 1997 and the We are very clear about the fact that by 2015 every present day there has been hardly any improvement in cavity and loft that it is appropriate to insulate will have household energy efficiency in the United Kingdom, been insulated, and 7 million homes will have had a according to ODEX, the index that measures these complete eco-makeover by 2020. That is a very positive matters, and is it not a fact that in the preceding programme. We will continue to keep everything under period—the years leading up to 1997—there was a review. We need to do as much as we can, because the 14 per cent. increase in household energy efficiency? emissions from our homes constitute about 27 per cent. What is it about this Government that has destroyed the of total carbon emissions. We absolutely must get to improvement, as measured by the internationally accepted grips with this sector. We shall need more co-operation standard? and involvement on the part of the public at large, and I hope that all parties will play their part in helping that Joan Ruddock: This country has a long history of process. poorly insulated buildings, which, as the hon. Gentleman knows, goes back many generations. The Government Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): I commend are making a real effort to ensure that much more the Minister for her efforts, but will she accept that a attention is paid to insulation. We have already insulated major part of the energy expended by a building during 5 million buildings in the domestic sector as a consequence its life cycle is expended during its construction, and of our carbon emissions reduction target provisions that the vilification of older property—particularly antique and the obligations on energy companies. Our current property—that is not capable of being double-glazed or programme will lead to the insulation of a further cavity wall-insulated as part of the home information 6 million buildings, and, as I said earlier, we have pack process is rather unfortunate? introduced energy performance certificates. We have the green homes service, run by the Energy Saving Trust, Joan Ruddock: In this country, we have many historic and we have the Act On CO2 helpline. and listed buildings. We are endeavouring to find ways There are many, many strategies in place, and we are both to preserve the fabric of historic buildings and to making improvements. People are saving money as a improve their energy efficiency. The Government have result of our policies, and they are lowering their carbon provided £1 million for ongoing work with the Energy 379 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 380

Saving Trust. We know that we must achieve both those emissions below business-as-usual levels and agreement aims, and we are committed to ensuring that we do so. on finance and technology flows to support developing- While that work is being undertaken, however, as the country action. vast majority of homes in this country are more than capable of receiving standard measures, the most important John Howell: I thank the Minister for that response, thing we can do is both encourage people to get on with but what grounds does she have for believing that the work and continue with the Government programmes Copenhagen will be more successful than Kyoto and that give financial assistance and oblige energy companies that unanimity can be reached? to ensure that those homes that can be easily insulated are quickly insulated in advance of next winter. Joan Ruddock: Since Kyoto, the world community has become more conscious of the science of climate Mr. Speaker: May I gently remind the Minister that I change. In every country that we visit, no matter what must ensure that we get through the Order Paper? its perspective, all the conversations that we have show a real understanding that the situation is very serious and Gregory Barker (Bexhill and Battle) (Con): I hope the that we need to avert the most dangerous climate change. Minister will also pass on my very warmest best wishes Because of that, minds are much more focused and we to the Secretary of State and his partner. have much more science—we also have a new mood in In the Minister’s answer to my hon. Friend the Member the United States of America, which is extremely important. for New Forest, East (Dr. Lewis), she put her finger on We also know that China, which is doing a great deal the nub of the issue when she said that there are domestically already, is now approaching the talks in a “many, many strategies in place”, very positive manner, and we have great co-operation from the G77 countries. There is reason to be optimistic, because the fact of the matter is that the Government’s therefore, and even more so because of the commitments approach to energy efficiency is fragmented and confused. that the US Administration have made. We have social energy tariffs, energy performance certificates, the decent homes standard, Warm Front, winter fuel Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): The Minister payments, the low-carbon buildings programme, the has stated that one of her personal priorities, which is carbon emissions reduction target, new building regulations, shared on both sides of the House, is the increased use warm zones, the community energy saving programme, of electric cars. The first law of thermodynamics says Fuel Direct, the green homes service and fuel poverty that one cannot create energy, so what sort of cost-benefit targets. No wonder the Secretary of State for Environment, or overall analysis has she done on the effects on climate Food and Rural Affairs has said: change of having to produce the extra electricity generation “There’s a lot…out there…but it’s hard to know where to capacity to power all those electric cars, which we hope start.” we will have—they will certainly help asthma sufferers Given that the Government are now totally paralysed in the UK—in the years to come? and Ministers’ minds are clearly focused elsewhere, is it not clear that they are never going to get to grips with Joan Ruddock: The key to the extra generation of energy efficiency, and that the bottom line is that the electricity is renewables—[Interruption.] I am being lights are on, but nobody’s home? pressed as to whether or not that involves nuclear. We have said that there needs to be an energy mix, of which Joan Ruddock: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his nuclear is a part. Nuclear power creates a lot of emissions amusing contribution. I am also most grateful to him through building and the mining of the ore, but when for having listed so many of the Government’s programmes, these facilities are in operation, they are then emission-free. and I hope the House is impressed by the extent of our So, of course nuclear power has a part to play, but work and our focus on these issues. The fact of the renewables and, in particular—given that we are examining matter is that many programmes are required, because international needs and discussions—the ability to transfer it is essential to involve many sectors and to have technology, particularly to developing countries, to enable different approaches. We believe that there is scope for others to produce electricity by low-carbon or no-carbon bringing approaches together—that is in the current means, are crucial. That is because there needs to be consultation, which I recommend that the hon. Gentleman growth in those emerging economies. That is also why reads. I also thank him and the Liberal Front-Bench we are working with China on carbon capture and spokesman for their kind words about my right hon. storage for coal, because that is another area where Friend the Secretary of State. reducing emissions from energy sources is crucial.

Copenhagen Conference Electric Vehicles

4. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What the 6. Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) Government’s priorities are for a global agreement on (Con): What recent discussions he has had with the climate change in Copenhagen in December. [277921] Secretary of State for Transport on the Government’s policy on carbon dioxide emissions arising from the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy generation of electricity used by electric vehicles. and Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): Our priority at [277923] Copenhagen is to seek a comprehensive agreement, which gives the best chance of limiting global temperature The Minister of State, Department of Energy and rises to no more than 2° C. To achieve that, we want to Climate Change (Mr. Mike O’Brien): Ministers regularly see ambitious emissions reductions targets from developed discuss these issues, and we are committed to reducing countries, action by developing countries to reduce overall transport emissions as part of tackling climate 381 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 382 change. We will publish our transport carbon reduction introduced across the whole country over the next decade— strategy this summer, which will examine, among other but investigate the uses that a smart grid system can things, the development of electric vehicles. make of the smart meters. In a decade’s time, smart meters will have developed in sophistication, and be Mr. Goodwill: Electric vehicles are often described as able to communicate with refrigerators and other having zero emissions—that may be the case as they equipment. It will be possible for signals to be sent from drive down Park lane, but it is not the case at Drax, the central base to various gadgets in the home to Ferrybridge or Eggborough, where the electricity may reduce the amount of electricity they use at peak times be produced from coal. Given the current energy mix of and increase it during the night or other quiet times. We our base load, and given that after allowing for the want a smart grid system to go with the smart meters, energy loss at the power station and transmission loss with a level of sophistication that enables us better to an electric vehicle is only about 33 per cent. emission manage the amount of electricity that we use. efficient, which compares with a figure of 45 per cent. for a diesel car, which is the more carbon friendly, the Topical Questions diesel car or the electric car? T1. [277939] Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): If he will Mr. O’Brien: We are looking at the development of make a statement on his departmental responsibilities. vehicles that will be increasingly low-carbon. That is one of the key reasons why the Government have already The Minister of State, Department of Energy and put a substantial amount of funding into research and Climate Change (Mr. Mike O’Brien): The Secretary of development. It is possible to reduce the level of emissions State has reason to smile because he has just become a from internal combustion engine cars that use petrol father, and also because the new Department has now and other fuels, as well as developing electric vehicles, been able to move most of its staff into its new building which are substantially lower generators of carbon and at 3 Whitehall place. It is always challenging to set up a other emissions. We hope that such an approach will, in new Department, but the move should be complete by the long term, ensure that our environment is better the end of the month. I have now moved out of a protected. I think that the hon. Gentleman is right to photocopying room into a Minister’s office, which always say that at the moment we still need to work very hard helps, especially when I have visitors. The Department on the research and development area, but that is can now focus much more effectively on its key aims—to precisely why the Government are putting in the extra tackle climate change, to provide energy security for the funding and why, unlike his party, we believe we need to UK and to do both at an affordable price. flag up the fact that consumers will be incentivised to buy low-carbon vehicles in the future. Philip Davies: Will the Minister confirm the figures in his Department’s document that say that the impact of Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): the renewables target on gas bills will be to increase Notwithstanding the Minister’s comments about the them by up to 23.6 per cent.? How many more people potential for reducing emissions from individual cars, is will that increase put into fuel poverty? not the management and limitation of CO2 emissions in the generation of electricity potentially much more Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman is creating the effective than reducing emissions from individual, carbon- image that everything will happen immediately and that fuelled vehicles, be they on the road or the railway? next week we will suddenly see massive rises. We are Does he agree that that is part of the overwhelmingly talking about a considerable period of time in which we powerful case for the electrification of the midland will develop renewables and a range of low-carbon main line and other similar routes? energy generation—something that his Front-Bench team also claims that it wants to see happen. We need to Mr. O’Brien: It is important that we ensure that we ensure that happens over the next decade—indeed up to electrify our main lines and put in place a transport 2050 and beyond—to deal with the problem of climate policy that not only ensures that we do not transfer change. The costs of not dealing with climate change emissions from the streets to power stations, but whose will be much greater for the consumer and the world. It overall breadth ensures that we recognise that public is essential that we develop renewables— transport and developing community-based transport are key parts of the future development of a low-carbon Mr. Speaker: Order. In topical questions, I am looking energy strategy in the decades to come. for punchy questions and answers. Perhaps Mr. Hendry can try. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD): The Minister has made the point that the source Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): Thank you, of the electricity is crucial to the efficiency of the Mr. Speaker. By the time the Minister has finished, the electric car, and therefore the Government have to questions will not be topical any more. [Laughter.] deliver a low-carbon electricity-generating system. Would This morning we have heard from the Government not the early introduction of smart metering help to about some of their consultation schemes on smart make electric cars more efficient, so that they could be meters, energy efficiency, electric cars, tidal barrages, optimised to charge when the wind is blowing and carbon capture, renewable heat and biogas. Does the renewable energy is available and surplus to capacity? Minister understand the frustration of so many people in the energy sector with the endless process of reviews Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman is right: we need to and consultations? We need a Government with the ensure that we not only introduce smart meters—we power to make decisions and to stop just talking have already announced that we want to see them about things. 383 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 384

Mr. O’Brien: This Government have made a whole The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy series of decisions on issues such as smart meters and and Climate Change (Joan Ruddock): As the hon. developing nuclear. The Opposition, however, are a Gentleman knows perfectly well, the fact is that many different matter. Let us take the example of nuclear: Government buildings are very ancient or are listed they were in favour of it, and then as soon as the buildings. DECC is in that category. It is extremely Government said that we would consult on taking a difficult for a Department to raise its standards quickly view on the move to nuclear, they decided to oppose it. when it is occupying such a building, but we are absolutely After we announced our move, they decided, “All right, determined to do so. We are looking at every aspect of we’re back in exactly the same position as we were the heating, the ventilation, the water use and the waste before.” Those on the Conservative Front Bench cannot in that building. We are committed overall as a Government make up their mind about most things, whereas we have to a 12.5 per cent. reduction in emissions from Government set out clear strategies for developing renewables, for Departments by 2010 and we are confident that we now developing nuclear, for dealing with climate change and have in place sufficient measures to achieve that. for ensuring that we have energy security in this country. T4. [277944] Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): Will the Minister confirm that on current T2. [277940] Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): Will the Government make up their mind on how important policies, the UK will fall woefully short of its 2020 they think tidal flow technology is? Of course we must target on renewable energy? harness green energy from the sea and of course it is Mr. Mike O’Brien: No. possible to build something like the Severn barrage, but that would cause irreversible damage to the T5. [277945] Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) environment and economy of the whole Severn estuary. (Con): Will the Minister accept that the European Instead, can we please put far more resource and effort Commission’s proposals to mitigate climate change into tidal flow technology around our coasts? could well cost this country £9 billion a year by 2020? It is estimated that that could put 1 million more Mr. Mike O’Brien: We are consulting on the development households into fuel poverty, and increase the average of this key area. Using tidal and using containment of fuel bill by £200. Is that what the Government want to tidal developments at the 4-metre tidal wave level in the achieve? I am not sure that that will be very popular. Severn, we know that in the future we can develop a Should they not pay more attention to energy security, level of electricity generation around our coast that will so that we do not get three-day-a-week black-outs, and help to protect our environment. That is why ensuring every other problem that we had in the past? that we go through all the environmental analysis of the Joan Ruddock: Great attention is being paid to energy Severn estuary and of the development of tidal and security. In the longer term, renewables will add to our estuary electricity in the future is key to our energy energy security because they will reduce imports of fuel policy. from other countries. The fact is that there is a need to do that work. The costs would be much greater to all of Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): Increasingly, us if we did not mitigate dangerous climate change, and consumers are opting to sign up for so-called green if we had adapt to the worst effects, so the money will electricity tariffs, often without knowing what they are be well spent. Of course, as we make progress people’s getting or what they are signing up for. Will the Minister fuel bills will go down when they are able to take up all tell the House what the Government are doing to ensure the measures. They will save energy and therefore money. that people are signing up for something of genuine Although it is necessary to put public funds into the environmental benefit? development of renewables and energy efficiency, we are committed to seeing that it is done fairly. Of course, Mr. O’Brien: Of course Ofgem is responsible for we do not seek in any way to put more people into fuel regulating the various tariffs and the way the energy poverty. On the contrary, we have a strategy to get them companies charge people for the different rates of electricity out, unlike the Conservative party. that they supply. Ofgem has just completed a review of some areas of charging. It had some concerns and Mr. John Baron (Billericay) (Con): The consumer obliged the energy companies to change some of their organisation Which? has calculated that there are something proposals. If particular concerns arise with regard to like 4,000 different tariffs; that can be very confusing for so-called green tariffs, those are matters that Ofgem consumers. As a result, many of the people who are needs to deal with and the Government would strongly switching switch to a more expensive tariff. In the light urge Ofgem to be straightforward in ensuring that it of my ten-minute Bill, which would oblige energy companies deals with these issues. to publish on their bills whether the consumer is accessing the company’s cheapest tariff—an idea welcomed, by T3. [277943] Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): the way, by the Secretary of State at the Dispatch We have established that domestic energy efficiency Box—what steps are the Government taking to ensure improvements under the Conservatives came to an that energy bills are used to highlight important information almost grinding halt under this Government, but what such as that, in order to improve energy efficiency? about Government Departments? According to the Mr. Henry Bellingham (North-West Norfolk) (Con): display energy certificates for the 17 Departments, only Very good question. two achieved a grade C and three achieved a grade E. Seven were graded F and five got the bottom grade of Mr. Mike O’Brien: Someone said, sotto voce, that G, including the Department of Energy and Climate that was a very good question, and indeed it is. Switching Change. Is that what the Government regard as leading has highlighted the fact that some people are not getting by example? information that enables them to ensure that they are 385 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 386 better off when they switch. We need to make sure that Philip Davies: When the Prime Minister said that he the information they receive is much more honest and could not implement the full police pay rise of 2.5 per valid; sometimes those who encourage switching provide cent. at arbitration, but could pay only 1.9 per cent. some questionable information. However, there are websites because of the impact on inflation, I tabled a question where reliable information could be obtained, and making to the Chancellor asking what the difference would be sure that that information is more widely known is to the overall inflation rate if either pay rise were important. We will publish our broader strategy on fuel implemented. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury gave poverty in due course, and we are considering some of a long-winded answer that did not address the question. the issues that the hon. Gentleman has raised. Certainly, The Office for National Statistics could provide an one of the issues to which we need to give serious answer, however, which was that either figure would not consideration is the idea that he puts forward of having have made a blind bit of difference to the overall more information on bills about the sort of tariffs inflation rate. Clearly, the answer had not been given available. because it was embarrassing to the Government. Could we make sure that accurate and full answers are given, even if the information might embarrass the Government?

LEADER OF THE HOUSE Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: the Government should provide truthful answers, whether they embarrass the Government or not. I also take the point about providing timely and full answers, which is The Leader of the House was asked— why this week I wrote to three Departments where there Parliamentary Questions have been difficulties in providing enough timely answers. There is sometimes an issue with the numbers of staff who provide suggested replies to Ministers, and sometimes 1. Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) there is a problem for Ministers: for instance, one (Con): What steps she is taking to ensure the Minister in the Department for Business, Enterprise completeness of answers to parliamentary questions and Regulatory Reform, answers 600 questions a month. for written answer. [277946] Obviously, that is a pretty severe stress. I had a sneaking suspicion that the hon. Gentleman 4. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What steps she is might raise the issue of his question last year. I should taking to ensure the completeness of answers to not say that the three, or perhaps four, paragraphs of parliamentary questions for written answer. [277950] the Chief Secretary reply were long-winded; if anything, they were not quite long-winded enough. In fact, on the The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Chris fuller letter and the question that he asked me previously, Bryant): My right hon. and learned Friend the Leader I did some following up for him and I think he has had a of the House and I are fully committed to making sure more substantial answer that goes into some depth that Ministers give faithful, honest, complete and timely about all the issues that he raises. answers to written parliamentary questions. We keep the matter under continuous review. Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): We have had repeated assurances from the Leader of Mr. Goodwill: I have to say that I am generally very the House that Ministers’ written answers will have pleased with the quality of the answers that I get from attached to them all relevant information, so that it is the Department for Transport, but occasionally—possibly easily accessible to other Members as well as to members because I am at fault, not having tabled the question of the public who may read Hansard. It simply is not precisely enough—the question could be open to good enough that Ministers make reference to the misinterpretation. I was pleased a couple of weeks ago “information being in the House of Commons Library”. to get a call from an official at the Driver and Vehicle Earlier this week, however, I received a reply from the Licensing Agency in Swansea asking for clarification, Department for Children, Schools and Families concerning but more recently, I rather suspected that I had been the number of children who are taken into care. It is a fobbed off with an answer to a question that the serious subject that is of huge interest to a number of Department would have preferred to have been asked, Members across the political divide as well as to members rather than to the question that I asked. Could officials of the public, and the information referred to was not be asked to take the opportunity to speak to Members so long and complex that it could not have been made more often to find out what information they need, so easily accessible and published in Hansard. Will the that Members do not have to table another question Deputy Leader of the House undertake to have a word and incur more expense? with the Children’s Secretary, while he still is the Children’s Secretary, to ensure that in future his Department supplies Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman makes a very all relevant information in a format that is easily accessible good suggestion. In one particular case relating to some to other Members and to members of the public? questions to the Department for Transport that he tabled, I have followed up on the problem that he had. I Chris Bryant: I am absolutely sure that the hon. think that there was a misunderstanding in the Department, Gentleman is right. Ministers should not provide an and the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my answer that refers somebody to some obscure, other hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham (Paul Clark), document, even if it is in the public domain. That is why wrote to the hon. Gentleman this morning to say that I am happy to write again to Ministers and to ensure he will make clear the precise situation and make a that we speak to the Cabinet Secretary, so that civil proper correction to Hansard. servants, via the permanent secretaries, also understand 387 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 388 the expectation that hon. Members should not be fobbed before it is firmed up in Europe, so that when it comes off with a half or two-thirds answer, but receive a full to this country it is in a form that we can make best answer. My only hesitation is that, before the Government use of? came into power, in 1996-97, there were only 18,439 written questions; in the last Session, however, there Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, were 73,357. Departments have to manage the process of course. However, we often transpose EU legislation properly, so that we have high-quality, timely, faithful into UK law not through statutory instruments but and honest answers in every case. through primary legislation. A classic example at the moment is the Coroners and Justice Bill, which transposes European Scrutiny large elements of the services directive. Similarly, it is sometimes appropriate for us to bring forward provisions such as the Swine Vesicular Disease Regulations 2009 2. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): What through statutory instruments; we want to ensure that, assessment she has made of the effectiveness of after consultation, there is clarity and swiftness around arrangements for the scrutiny by the House of the country in respect of such provisions. legislation brought forward under the European Communities Act 1972. [277947] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Chris Bryant): EU legislation, as I am sure the hon. Lady The hon. Member for North Devon, representing the knows because she has been around for a while, is House of Commons Commission, was asked— transposed into domestic law by a variety of means, including primary legislation, secondary legislation under Parliamentary Access the 1972 Act and other secondary legislation. We continue 3. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): What to keep the effectiveness of all those methods under steps the House of Commons Commission is review and are happy to listen to proposals for improvement. taking to ensure unimpeded access to and from the parliamentary estate for hon. Members and staff at all Miss McIntosh: The hon. Gentleman will be well times. [277948] advised to take advice from his right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the House on the charm factor Nick Harvey (North Devon): As you have said in the when responding to questions. He may or may or not be House, Mr. Speaker, the Serjeant at Arms is your contact aware that the Government are considering removing with the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis on part of the draft Flood and Water Management Bill all such matters. The Serjeant at Arms continues to that is before the House and introducing it in secondary impress on the Metropolitan police the need and legislation under the 1972 Act. Does he share my concern requirement for vehicle and pedestrian access to the that that process does not allow for the same parliamentary parliamentary estate to be maintained. scrutiny as a Public Bill Committee? It is highly regrettable Sir Nicholas Winterton: As the House is well aware, in that regard. The legislation is not contentious, and recently the Tamil demonstration and protest meant that is why we should expedite and introduce the main—not that the access of Members and staff to the House was a draft—Flood and Water Management Bill, rather completely cut off and for long periods was greatly than use secondary legislation, which is not subject to restricted. Only this week, owing to a demonstration by proper parliamentary scrutiny. cyclists—representing the Green party and campaigning in the European elections, I understand—Bridge street Chris Bryant: I did not intend to disparage the hon. was closed for a period, thus greatly inconveniencing Lady; I was merely trying to reinforce the view—of the Members of Parliament. whole House, I am sure—that she has considerable experience and expertise and brings wisdom to all her Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): comments. She has made an important point, although And the public! she has completely and utterly misunderstood the Sir Nicholas Winterton: And the public as well. Only Government’s intentions on the particular issue in question. this week, the very entrance to the House of Commons As she knows, we are committed to providing a draft has been blocked by odd mavericks and others seeking legislative programme, and we will publish it in the to inconvenience—perhaps even arrest—Members of not-too-distant future. We will consult on it around the Parliament. Is it not time that the police, who appear to country so that people will be able to put their views on be completely unable to deal with the situation, developed precisely how we should proceed with the measures. We a strategy and tactics to enable them to ensure that have also introduced the whole process of pre-legislative Members and staff of the House, and the public, have scrutiny, which gives the hon. Lady the opportunity to unimpeded access to the House of Commons? make precisely the points that she has made. Nick Harvey: We are aware of the instance to which Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) the hon. Gentleman refers, but obviously policing on (LD): Today, the whole nation should be looking at London’s streets is a matter for the Metropolitan police. what is coming out of Europe that will affect this The service says that it has to give a proportionate country. One of the crucial things to recognise is that response, which, in the light of complaints about the transposing European legislation is a passive act of policing of protests, is understandable. However, we turning what comes concretely from Brussels into facts will continue to make clear to the service the need for on the ground in this country. Should not the crucial Members to be able to get in and out of the House at all message to the House and the Government be that we times. For the time being at least, protests in Parliament must ensure that that legislation is well and truly scrutinised square are legal and legitimate. If the hon. Gentleman 389 Oral Answers4 JUNE 2009 Oral Answers 390 and others wish to see a change in the disposition of the and a business committee, which are being considered law, there may be legislative opportunities to which they by the Procedure Committee, are ones that we need to will wish to contribute. address, bringing together Members from all parts of the House. Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con): I have some grave concerns about what is going Simon Hughes: I am grateful for that more conciliatory on in Parliament square, not least because this is very response to the question than I have heard from the much an iconic building and we have a lot of tourists Minister before. Given that the Prime Minister is now who want to visit this area. Equally, I do not entirely clear that constitutional reform needs to go more quickly, agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield and that the public seem clear that Parliament and the (Sir Nicholas Winterton), in that I think peaceful protest Government should be separate so that we can do our is an important part of the process as well. I want to job in holding the Government to account, I hope that stress to the hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Ministers will now be positive about the business of Harvey) that rules are already in place. There should be Parliament—the House of Commons—being determined no encampment, as there has been of Tamil demonstrators by Parliament, not by Government, and will be very in the past seven weeks, and there should be no more supportive of this proposal. than 50 protestors at any one time. The police already have considerable powers in this regard, and they should Chris Bryant: Obviously, the Government are the be properly exercised. Government only because they have a majority in Nick Harvey: We will continue a dialogue with the Parliament. That makes the system that we have to have police, and the Serjeant at Arms will continue to make in this country somewhat different from that in some clear to them the need to sustain access to the Palace. other countries, particularly those where there is no one party with a majority. The hon. Gentleman and others Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): Although have made interesting points on this issue, and we want I can well understand Members’ irritation about this, I, to ensure that that debate can be carried forward properly. too, impress on the hon. Member for North Devon In our present system, we have substantial measures to (Nick Harvey) the need to recognise that there is a ensure that elements of the business are not decided balance to be struck between the convenience of Members entirely by Government but by the Opposition. Indeed, and the legitimate right to peaceful protest, and to my right hon. and learned Friend the Leader of the ensure that whatever solution is found to the current House is about to announce several days coming up issues out there, that balance is struck. that have not been determined by Government at all. Nick Harvey: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. However, I stress again that any change to the HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION legislation is a matter for this House, while the detailed arrangements for policing the streets are a matter for the Metropolitan police, and the Serjeant at Arms will The hon. Member for North Devon, representing the continue to impress upon them the need to maintain House of Commons Commission, was asked— access. Freedom of Information Act

Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): Is it not a 6. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): fact that the licence for the noisy use of amplified How much has been spent from the House of broadcasting equipment ran out long ago, and that no Commons administration vote on completed administrative enforcement of the existing laws is being carried out? As and legal challenges to decisions of the Information long ago as October, we were promised in this House Commissioner, the Information Tribunal and the courts that legislation was imminent. When are we going to see made in respect of the Freedom of Information Act it? 2000. [277955] Nick Harvey: The timing of legislation is not a matter for me. The Joint Committee on the Constitutional Nick Harvey (North Devon): Legal actions have incurred Renewal Bill has been looking at the provisions, and we external costs to the administration estimate of £55,361 await with interest the legislation’s coming before the to date. The internal costs associated with legal challenges House. are absorbed within the cost of running the House administration and cannot be separately identified. The figure does not include costs charged to the Members’ LEADER OF THE HOUSE estimate. The Leader of the House was asked— Andrew Selous: A number of my constituents have Business of the House asked whether that sum might be paid back out of existing budgets of the House of Commons. Is that 5. Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) possible? (LD): If she will bring forward proposals to establish a business committee to determine the House’s business; Nick Harvey: I am unclear what the hon. Gentleman and if she will make a statement. [277954] means. To whom would it be paid back, and by whom? If the money were paid to the Treasury from the House The Deputy Leader of the House of Commons (Chris of Commons administration estimate, then it would be Bryant): Confidence in Parliament has certainly taken a going round in a circle. I cannot see what public interest hit in recent months, and the questions of timetabling would be served by such a transaction. 391 4 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 392

Business of the House us a statement on the whereabouts of the draft legislative programme? Last year it was published on 14 May, but so far this year there is no sign of it. Will she confirm 11.34 am that the concept of publishing the legislation in advance Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton) (Con): May I ask has been quietly scrapped, or is it perhaps just the case the Leader of the House to give us the future business that this Government have run out of steam and have of the House? nothing left to offer? The Leader of the House of Commons (Ms Harriet Similarly, may we have a statement on the Business Harman): The business for next week will be as follows: Secretary’s Postal Services Bill? It received a surprise— perhaps we could call it emergency—First Reading in MONDAY 8JUNE—Motion to approve the seventh this place on 21 May, only a day after its Third Reading report from the Standards and Privileges Committee on in another place. Then we were given to understand Unauthorised Disclosure of Heads of Report from the from reports in the media that certain Cabinet Ministers—I Culture, Media and Sport Committee, followed by Second am sure that neither the Labour Chief Whip nor the Reading of the Health Bill [Lords]. right hon. and learned Lady is among them—regard the TUESDAY 9JUNE—Opposition day [12th allotted day]. Bill as “totally bonkers”. Now we learn from her statement There will be a debate on youth crime followed by a that no Second Reading is planned in the next fortnight. debate on housing policy. Both debates will arise on an Can she tell the House when that is going to happen? Opposition motion. WEDNESDAY 10 JUNE—Consideration in Committee May we have an urgent statement from the Department and remaining stages of the Geneva Conventions and for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform on the United Nations Personnel (Protocols) Bill [Lords], followed fate of Vauxhall and the jobs of more than 5,000 workers, by Opposition day [Unallotted half-day]. There will be which hang in the balance? There was a great flurry of a half-day debate on a motion relating to the Dissolution activity on our TV screens earlier this week by the of Parliament in the name of the Scottish National Business Secretary, who assured us about the future of party and Plaid Cymru. the company. Yet while he has chosen not to give Parliament an update, reports today suggest that the THURSDAY 11 JUNE—Topical debate: subject to be announced, followed by a general debate on social Luton plant has now been classified as “at risk” by mobility and fair access to the professions. trade unions. At the risk of sounding churlish, may I point out that over the past 24 hours the Secretary of FRIDAY 12 JUNE—Private Members’ Bills. State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform The provisional business for the week commencing has seemed rather more interested in saving the Prime 15 June will include: Minister’s job than the jobs of British car workers. May MONDAY 15 JUNE—Opposition day [13th allotted day]. we have a statement on that delicate situation as it There will be a debate on an Opposition motion: subject affects the car industry in the United Kingdom? to be announced. On the subject of unemployment, may we have a TUESDAY 16 JUNE—A general debate on European Affairs. statement from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on premium line telephone costs for Jobcentre WEDNESDAY 17 JUNE—Mr. Speaker’s valedictory and Plus? As we have all feared, the number of people out of tributes by the House, followed by consideration of work has been steadily increasing over the past few Lords Amendments. months, but the Government are not making it any THURSDAY 18 JUNE—Topical debate: subject to be easier for those who are looking for work. They are announced—followed by general debate: subject to be being charged to dial in, hang on for ages and then announced. often just get cut off. It ends up costing them a lot of FRIDAY 19 JUNE—Private Members’ Bills. money just to have an initial conversation on the phone. The provisional business for the week commencing How does the right hon. and learned Lady justify 22 June will include: charging people who have little income high rates—or MONDAY 22 JUNE—The House will meet to elect a even at all—for seeking advice on getting a job, particularly Speaker. in the depths of one of the deepest recessions the TUESDAY 23 JUNE—Second Reading of the Marine country has seen? and Coastal Access Bill [Lords]. May I request yet again an urgent debate on the I should also like to inform the House that the Government’s handling of compensation for those who business in Westminster Hall for 25 June and 2 July will lost out from Equitable Life, another group of people be: whom the Government have so shamefully ignored? THURSDAY 25 JUNE—A debate on the report from the Twenty years ago, the then shadow Trade and Industry Joint Committee on Human Rights entitled “A Bill of Secretary, who now happens to be Prime Minister, Rights for the UK?” stood at this very Dispatch Box and spoke about Barlow THURSDAY 2JULY—A debate on the European Clowes and the ombudsman’s report on that. He Commission’s annual policy strategy. condemned the Alan Duncan: I thank the Leader of the House for “fecklessness, gullibility and incompetence of the Government giving us the forthcoming business. who, for months and years, ignored all the warnings”.—[Official Report, 19 December 1989; Vol. 164, c. 204-5.] Although we recognise that the Government rather seem to have some other priorities at the moment, may I How can the Government dishonour their obligations gently remind the right hon. and learned Lady that a to Equitable Life policyholders when their stance in Government are for governing? Will she therefore give Opposition was so different on such a similar issue? 393 Business of the House4 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 394

Will the Leader of the House consider a debate on We also believe in working across Europe to ensure that countries in the middle east and around that region that we do well out of our work in co-operation with other are at risk of failure, such as Somalia and particularly European countries. Yemen? I and many others fear that there is, once again, The hon. Gentleman raised an important point about a danger of Yemen dividing between north and south help for the unemployed through phone lines, so that and spreading instability in the area. they can call jobcentres. I will raise that with the Secretary May we also have a debate on educational standards? of State for Work and Pensions, but let me say two It is noticeable in the public exchange of letters between things now. If we are to help the unemployed who, the right hon. Member for Salford (Hazel Blears) and through no fault of their own, have lost their jobs as a the Prime Minister that neither makes use of that basic result of the global financial crisis, it is important that staple of punctuation, the full stop. As one of Tony we put extra investment into jobcentres. That is why we Blair’s former speech writers said in The Times today, have put £1.2 billion extra into jobcentres to help people. The extra resources going into jobcentres, which the “New Labour began with no verbs and it ends with no punctuation.” hon. Gentleman’s party has opposed, should ensure that we can provide a good service, not only face to face Is that another tacit admission that the Government but on telephone lines. have ground to a complete full stop? The hon. Gentleman asked about Equitable Life. He Finally, may I say on this day that whatever our will know that the Economic Secretary to the Treasury political differences and persuasions—and whatever updated the House in the debate in Westminster Hall on difficulties Parliament has been experiencing—for the 19 May on the progress that Sir John Chadwick has sake of democracy, let us join together across the Chamber made in looking into the compensation scheme for in urging everyone to get out and vote, and to do it for those who have lost out under Equitable Life. positive reasons for a positive agenda for the future of The hon. Gentleman also raised an important point the country? about the destabilisation in Yemen and Somalia. I will discuss that with my right hon. Friend the Foreign Ms Harman: I absolutely agree with the point that Secretary and see whether there will be an opportunity the shadow Leader of the House has just made about to update the House, whether by written or oral statement, the importance of our democracy and of everybody or by way of a debate. getting out to vote. Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Can we have The hon. Gentleman asked about the draft legislative a debate on the responsibilities of householders when programme. This will be the third year in which we planting trees in their gardens which subsequently cause publish the programme, instead of leaving it until the damage to the drains and foundations of neighbouring Queen’s Speech, by which time a programme is set in properties? I have talked to hon. Members across the tablets of stone, the ink has dried and there is no House, and there seems to be a problem across the opportunity for people to participate in discussions country, particularly when people plant ornamental about what should be in it. We intend, for the third year trees such as ornamental eucalyptus. Insurance companies running, to publish the draft legislative programme in are increasingly including clauses that exclude householders advance. The elections on 4 June and the rules about the from claiming when their properties suffer damage, yet purdah that surrounds them mean that we have not those who plant the trees can walk away scot-free. Can been able to publish it in the six weeks immediately we look into that, please? prior to them. Publication has therefore been delayed, but it will happen shortly. Ms Harman: I think that that matter comes under the The hon. Gentleman asked about the Postal Services auspices of the Department for Communities and Local Bill. I have announced the business for next week, and Government. It is obviously a concern to my hon. as he knows, the business for the following weeks is Friend’s constituents, and it has also been raised with provisional. other hon. Members by their constituents, so it might be a matter on which she should seek a Westminster The shadow Leader of the House mentioned Vauxhall Hall debate. and the car industry, which is very important. Indeed, the Prime Minister addressed the matter in Prime Minister’s questions yesterday, and it has been raised often in the Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) House. We are very concerned about the car industry, (LD): I associate my party with the right hon. and particularly the plants at Luton and Ellesmere Port. We learned Lady’s important remarks about everyone getting are concerned about not only those who work in those out there to vote today, both in the European elections important plants but all those who supply the industry and in the local elections—for people who live where and the skill base that it supports. The hon. Gentleman those are taking place—and about the importance of knows that there has been big backing through Government taking part in our democracy. loans under the automotive assistance scheme, in addition The Leader of the House has given us the business to the general help for business, and that the Business for almost three weeks, which is a welcome new development Secretary has held discussions to ensure that we do that I hope will continue in future. The more the House everything we can to secure those jobs, against the can be informed of business far ahead of time, the more changing background for General Motors. It is important people outside this House will know how to influence to appreciate that we do not believe in the recession that business. However, she also said that everything taking its course, but in active Government intervention. beyond next week was very provisional. Is that subject We do not believe in cutting back, but in borrowing to to the vote next Wednesday on the Dissolution of back up loans to support business that is in difficulty. Parliament? 395 Business of the House4 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 396

[Sir Robert Smith] One of the good outcomes of the awful scandal about the abuse of MPs’ allowances will be that we have On the subject of that debate on the Dissolution, an opportunity to look afresh at all the processes in the Prime Minister’s questions has been the only opportunity House. Included in that will be how, and how far ahead, that the Prime Minister has had to deal with the question we announce the business, what mechanism we use to of why he does not want to have an election now. Often decide on the business, and what we should do about his answer seems to be because he would lose it, but he e-petitions. This will be a good moment for us to look has not had the chance to expand on his reasons for not afresh at all those issues on a cross-party basis. responding to the country’s wish for an election. To that The hon. Gentleman asked how the House could be end, will the Leader of the House ensure that the updated on the middle east. I will include that matter appropriate Minister replies to the debate next when I discuss the points raised by the shadow Leader Wednesday—and obviously the Prime Minister would of the House on Yemen and Somalia. He also asked be the most appropriate Minister to reply to such a about the Royal Mail. Of course we are determined to debate, so will she ensure that he comes and gives a full protect the Royal Mail, and to invest in and protect the explanation, both to the House and to the country, of post office network. his views on that Dissolution motion? Perhaps the reason why the Leader of the House said Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab): The Education Service that the business was provisional is that she was tantalising in the House of Commons offers subsidised travel to us with the prospect of the Postal Services Bill appearing schools wishing to visit Parliament. This is very popular in the provisional business for the following week. It is with schools in Stockport, but the service is heavily vital for the future of the Post Office and Royal Mail oversubscribed, with the subsidy being allocated almost that the Government should come forward with proper immediately on the day when applications open. Will and effective means of getting investment into those my right hon. and learned Friend look into this to see companies. However, we also need a Bill that protects whether more subsidy could be made available, so that the Post Office and ensures that after all the upheaval in schools such as Lark Hill and Alexandra Park can visit the post office network, it is not further damaged by the Parliament and enjoy the excellent educational tours Government. offered in the House of Commons? In engaging with the public, the Government are quite keen on the use of petitions in local government. Ms Harman: The opportunities for other people to Last year the Government agreed with the Procedure come into the House and see the work that we do have Committee that we should have a modern e-petitioning improved massively over recent years, but there is an system for Parliament. When will the Government ensure opportunity for us to review the situation. The more that that agreement is delivered, so that Parliament can people understand about the work that their constituency have a functioning e-petitioning system? MP does in the House of Commons the better, and providing schoolchildren with a better understanding Finally, President Obama is making a major statement of the House helps them to understand history as well in the middle east today on relations with the Islamic as the modern processes of government. Enabling people world. Will the Leader of the House ensure that the from all parts of the United Kingdom not to be debarred Foreign Secretary comes to the House to make a statement from coming to the House on the ground of cost is on the implications for the UK’s policy in the middle something that we can look at on a cross-party basis. east of what President Obama says today? Ms Harman: The question of who responds to the Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): The Opposition day debate next week is a matter for the Prime Minister has been making much of his proposals Government— for constitutional reform and for a code of conduct for hon. Members—but in forums other than this one. Are Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) we to be favoured with a statement about these proposals, (LD): You are the Government! so that we can scrutinise them?

Ms Harman: Quite so, but it is not a matter of House Ms Harman: I made a statement about the proposals business. Therefore the Government will decide, and that came out of the meeting of the three party leaders, put forward the appropriate person. at which the Prime Minister suggested that we have a The hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and parliamentary standards authority to regulate the question Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith) made a big point about of expenses. However, the hon. Gentleman is right to the business for next week being announced whereas say that the House should have an opportunity, sooner the business for the following weeks was provisional. rather than later, to engage in the debate on how we Because he is standing in for the hon. Member for review and improve the processes of the House, as well Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath), and because he is as considering the wider constitutional questions. He new to business questions, perhaps he does not realise will know that there is a Constitutional Renewal Bill in that we always announce the business for the next week the legislative programme. It has already been considered firmly, and the business for any subsequent weeks is in draft by a Committee of both Houses, and it will always provisional. In order to help the House we try, provide a vehicle for further debate and discussion. No whenever possible, to give as much notice of the business doubt more issues will come before the House shortly. as we can, and to announce the provisional business as far ahead as possible. None the less, the hon. Gentleman Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): I am has raised an important point: if people outside the sure that my right hon. and learned Friend—who is one House know what the business is going to be, it enables of the calmer voices in the House—will be aware of them to engage in the debate. calls from outside and within the House for a shorter 397 Business of the House4 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 398 summer recess this year. I hope that she will not mind Britain’s economy, of the environment and of protecting my adding my voice to those calls. I would like to ourselves against international crime. We have to work suggest that we come back here in September to hear an together in Europe, and siding with what my hon. early Queen’s Speech proposing the Government’s next Friend describes as a few fruitcake parties from the far legislative programme—including a proportional right would not be in the interests of the people of this representation Bill to be enacted in time for the next country. general election. Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): May I Ms Harman: It is right that we have the opportunity warmly congratulate the Leader of the House on her to debate again our democracy and all the processes remarks about the link between Members of Parliament that underpin it. My hon. Friend talks about changing and their respective constituencies? That link is vital to the dates to shorten the summer recess, but I think that the parliamentary system in this country. Is she also it is very important that any changes we make in the aware that there have been calls today, not only from the House do nothing to undermine the constituency link— Conservatives, for the more meaningful involvement of [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] I am talking about the Back Benchers in the business of the House? rootedness of Members of Parliament in their own constituencies. We need to scotch the idea—I am not I refer particularly to the establishment of a business saying that my hon. Friend was suggesting this; I know Committee, which could go much wider in representing that he was not—that when we are not in the House, the House than the current rather informal business working in Committees or in the Chamber, we are all on committee. Will she give serious thought to that suggestion? holiday. At those times there is an opportunity—I would Is it not an appropriate subject for an important debate? say an obligation—for Members to be in their constituencies Could we not consider merging the Modernisation working with their constituents. If we had shorter summer Committee, which she leads, with the Procedure Committee, recesses, we would have more time in the House and less which could achieve so many of the things that both she time in our constituencies. One of the things that we and the Prime Minister have talked about to improve need to do is to make this clearer across the piece, so democracy? that our constituents can see the work that we do in our constituencies, as well as the work that we do in Ms Harman: As I said in response to my hon. Friend the House. the Member for Morley and Rothwell (Colin Challen), we should take the opportunity to look again at the Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): May I associate myself mechanism for arranging House business. As Leader of with the request that the hon. Member for Morley and the House, I would welcome the views of all parties on Rothwell (Colin Challen) has just made? the matter. Car parking charges at Stepping Hill hospital in Stockport, which serves my constituency and those of Sir Peter Soulsby (Leicester, South) (Lab): Given the several other Members, have been dramatically increased, recent media interest in how public money is spent on suddenly and without warning. They have gone up from the pay and allowances of those in public life, may we £1.50 for three hours to £2 for two hours, £3 for two to have a debate on the pay and other remuneration of four hours, and £5 for more than four hours. This is a BBC superstars and on the irony of the corporation’s problem not only for those who have to pay the charges; use of the familiar pretext of the Data Protection Act to it is also bad news for those who live in the surrounding seek to prevent openness and transparency in public area, who are now suffering even more as people look life? In such a debate, may we have the chance to say to for an alternative to those parking arrangements at the the BBC, on the basis of some recent experience, that hospital. Is it not about time we had a debate on the resisting the public’s legitimate right to know how their scandal of car parking charges at our hospitals? money is being used to remunerate all those in public life is likely to end in tears? Ms Harman: The hon. Gentleman has given an example of how a constituency Member of Parliament dealing Ms Harman: When public money is spent, the public with a foundation hospital can have a big impact through are entitled to know about it, and salaries for presenters representing local people who want changes in the car at the BBC are paid for out of public money. Now I park charging policy. I suggest that he take up this have heard it argued that it would be invidious to matter directly with the foundation hospital. He will no publish those salaries because it would prompt competition doubt be supported by other hon. Members whose from commercial organisations that might try to head-hunt constituents use the hospital. those presenters. However, that risk applies to everyone Martin Linton (Battersea) (Lab): Can we have a debate in public service—the salaries of permanent secretaries, about the rise of the far right in Europe, and of those for example, are published and they, too, could be on the newly emerging fruitcake right who seem to head-hunted by the private sector. However, many people believe that climate change is a myth, and homosexuality work in the public sector because they believe in public an illness? I am sure that my right hon. and learned service broadcasting or the important work of the Friend would have no truck with those parties, but the public sector more widely. I do not buy the argument official Opposition seem determined to become a new that salaries cannot be published because of commercial ingredient in the fruitcake. confidentiality because it seems to me that the issue goes further than the Data Protection Act. I believe that Ms Harman: We will be having a debate prior to the gagging clauses are drawn up to prevent BBC presenters European Council, and I am sure that my hon. Friend from disclosing the salaries that they have negotiated, will take that opportunity to catch the Speaker’s eye but the Equality Bill contains a clause to ban such and participate in that debate, and to make the point gagging clauses because we do not think it appropriate that we all need to work together in the interests of for employers and employees to be bound not to reveal 399 Business of the House4 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 400

[Ms Harman] since the Act came into force and that the Secretary of State had accidentally mislaid £1 trillion of benefits. information about pay—not least because that might Thanks perhaps to the intervention of the Leader of provide an opportunity for pay discrimination between the House, for which I am grateful, the Secretary of men and women. State has written to me saying that we could debate these issues in connection with statutory instruments on Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con): May carbon budgets. Those have been debated in the other we have a debate in Government time about place, so will she tell us when they are going to be “phoenixism”—in other words, going out of business debated in this place? Can she assure us that they will be one day and going back into business a few days later, debated on the Floor of the House and can she tell us doing almost exactly the same thing, leaving creditors whether they result from the Climate Change Act 2008— unpaid and customers without the goods and services and are therefore something that the House could reject they have paid for? Does the Leader of the House agree in principle if it so wished—or, as the text of the that the House should discuss this matter particularly statutory instrument suggests, they come instead from now, when this pernicious practice is resulting in many the European Union Climate and Energy Package? If of our constituents being unable to recover money they so, the Government have produced a separate cost-benefit can ill afford to lose? analysis for this package on that basis, which therefore Ms Harman: When someone goes out of business, means that although we could go through the charade that affects other businesses in the supply chain, as the of debating them, we could never reject them. hon. Gentleman said. Perhaps he could raise this matter Ms Harman: I will raise this issue with my colleagues again in the debate immediately after business questions, in the relevant Department. I know that the right hon. which is about supporting business through these difficult Gentleman has raised the matter on a previous occasion. times. It might be necessary for him to meet the Deputy Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): I return to Leader of the House and the appropriate departmental President Obama’s highly significant speech in Cairo Minister in order to sort out the process issues. I appreciate this morning. Bearing in mind that our country is still that the right hon. Gentleman is trying to ensure that probably America’s closest ally and has huge interests in the processes are right for dealing with the matter. the middle east and given that the Leader of the House has said that the topical debate for Thursday has not yet Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con): Whatever the been decided, may I suggest that there could not be turbulence in this place, 20 years ago in Tiananmen anything more topical than a debate on the middle east, Square, according to the Chinese Red Cross, 2.500 particularly in view of the American President’s speech, young people had their lives snuffed out. Even this and that it should be led by the Foreign Secretary, if he morning, journalists trying to enter Tiananmen Square available? were manhandled by the Chinese police. May we have a debate about human rights in China and how we can Ms Harman: I will certainly take that as a constructive encourage the Chinese, who wish to become a modern suggestion for next week’s topical debate. country and a part of our modern society, to revise their internal policing and freedom policies? Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): May I push the Leader of the House again on the question of the Ms Harman: Given that there are major human rights timing of the Postal Services Bill? If the Government concerns that go beyond the roughly 30 people who, 20 are intent on proceeding with the part-privatisation of years after the tragic events in Tiananmen Square, still the Royal Mail, they need to get on with it because the remain in detention, it might be appropriate for a private sector partners cannot tolerate the uncertainty. topical debate in the near future. Given the major If, on the other hand and as well-informed sources human rights issues also arising in Burma, we might be suggest, the Government have abandoned those plans, able to combine the two and debate them together. the Bill is still necessary in other respects, particularly to deal with regulatory issues surrounding the winding up Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): of Postcomm and its merger into Ofcom. We still need On 27 April, the new motorcycle driving test, including the Bill and we need to get on with it very quickly. the controversial 50 kph swerve and stop aspect—was finally introduced. During the first three weeks of the Ms Harman: As the hon. Gentleman will know, the test’s operation, there have been 11 incidents—10 involving Bill introduced in the other place has completed its injury—and three people have had to be admitted to passage there, so it is available to be brought before the hospital. Will the Secretary of State for Transport, House. It is not in next week’s business, so I am afraid whoever he or she may be by next week, make a statement that he will have to wait until next week’s business so that Members can raise the questions that need to be statement to see whether it is part of business for the asked about this particular disturbing problem? future. I appreciate him making those comments—by saying that I may seem to be breaking the spirit of what Ms Harman: I will raise the issue with Ministers in I said to the hon. Member for West Aberdeenshire and the Department for Transport and try to find out Kincardine (Sir Robert Smith). I am aware of that whether they believe a written ministerial statement or a paradox. letter to the hon. Gentleman would be the most appropriate means to deal with his request. Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): I have previously asked the right hon. and learned Lady Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): May we whether we could have a debate on the impact assessment, have a statement from the Leader of the House on the or the cost-benefit analysis, of the Climate Change Act selection of topics to be debated on days when major 2008. It showed that costs had doubled to £400 billion elections, such as the European and county council 401 Business of the House4 JUNE 2009 Business of the House 402 elections today, are going on? She knows that I am a perhaps been forgotten that each and every day the great admirer of the way she discharges her duty as Government are borrowing—not spending, but Leader of the House and I cannot believe that she borrowing—£450 million. would have wanted the “Defence in the World”debate—the May we have a debate in Government time on this most important defence debate of the year—to be scheduled country’s interdependence with a number of other nations, on a day like today. If she cannot resolve the problem especially China, which my hon. Friend the Member for herself, will she have a word with the leader of her Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) referred to, and several party, whoever that may be, in the next few days? nations in the middle east? We have such tremendous interdependence to ensure that our bonds and gilts can Ms Harman: All of us in the House believe in the be sold in the international markets, and that borrowing importance of democracy, and we believe in it not just is being funded by other nations that have an important for the election of Members of the House, but for the ongoing economic relationship with us. Will the election of local councillors and Members of the European Government hold a debate in their own time on that Parliament. That is why there are so few Members in important economic phenomenon? the House when local elections or elections to the Ms Harman: The Prime Minister and other Ministers European Parliament take place. Traditionally, that has have led the way in recognising that the response to the been responded to by an effort to ensure that there is no global financial crisis needs to be global. That is why controversial business and no need for a vote at the end the G20 summit, which the Prime Minister hosted in of business. That means that we will be debating the London, was called. In support of the extra borrowing, important subject of the economy when few Members I would say that it has been necessary for the purposes are in the House. There is an opportunity to look afresh of backing up the car industry and providing extra at a lot of issues. If we think that there is no opportunity investment to help those who are going to jobcentres, for serious debate in the House on election days such as and to protect many of the issues that hon. Members this, perhaps the House should not be sitting. We need have raised. to consider that. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May we have a debate on organisations within the police force that undermine Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): May we have cohesion? We already have the deeply divisive National a debate about Gibraltar following worrying news that Black Police Association and West Yorkshire police has Brussels has begun to recognise Spanish claims to the just announced that it is forming an association of Rock in assigning to Spain territorial waters around Muslim police. I suggest to the Leader of the House Gibraltar as an environmental protection zone that that those organisations are extremely unhelpful, deeply Spain is apparently to police? This has already caused a divisive and do nothing to promote community cohesion stand-off—between the British patrol vessel HMS Sabre and the principle of integration. May we have a debate and the Spanish corvette Tarifa earlier this month. on that issue, because many of my constituents and Some urgency is involved in the matter, yet we have many people in my part of the world find such things heard nothing from the Government. entirely unacceptable?

Ms Harman: In the provisional business, I announced Ms Harman: It is important to ensure that there is for 16 June a debate on European affairs. The hon. proper policing that is as effective as it possibly can be, Gentleman might seek to catch Mr. Speaker’s eye to and that the public have confidence in and work in intervene in that debate and get a response from a support of the police. That is only helped by having a Foreign Office Minister. police force that reflects and is part of the communities that it serves, which is why it is important to have more black, Asian and Muslim police. Therefore, those Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) associations are important for increasing recruitment (Con): Amidst the furore over parliamentary expenses and diversity in our police services, whether in Yorkshire and allowances during the past four weeks, it has or in London. 403 4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 404

The Economy (Supporting Business) help to that supply chain to protect it? Will he tell the House what grants and sums have been disbursed under Topical debate the automotive assistance programme, and how many companies have been assisted by it? 12.14 pm Ian Pearson: I will come to the automotive assistance The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): programme in a moment as part of the wider context of I beg to move, measures that the Government are taking, but I want to That this House has considered the matter of the economy: make the point to the hon. Gentleman and to the House supporting business. that, through the fiscal stimulus announced in the pre- British businesses are fundamental to our success Budget report and the actions we took in October and and prosperity as a nation and supporting businesses January to support the banking system, we are helping through these tough times has been, is and will continue businesses by beginning to replace the lending capacity to be a priority for the Government. As many commentators lost due to the withdrawal from the UK economy of have said, what makes this downturn different from foreign banks and other institutions. those seen in the past is the fact that it is not a domestic This year’s Budget went further in providing a stimulus problem, or a problem restricted to a small number of to the economy as a whole, and in total we will provide countries, but global. fiscal support worth 4 per cent. of GDP in 2009-10. All World gross domestic product is forecast to contract in all, the UK has one of the largest programmes of by around 1.25 per cent. this year—the first full-year fiscal support in the G20 in 2009. shrinkage since the second world war—and many of our international partners are in recession. In the first Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): To help small businesses quarter of this year, the UK economy shrank by 1.9 per in particular, which are suffering a recession through no cent. Across the EU, the fall was 2.4 per cent. Germany fault of their own, could not the Government take saw a contraction of twice that in the UK in the first away, or at least suspend, some of the regulatory burdens quarter, and the Japanese economy contracted by 4 per to enable businesses to come out the other side? If they cent. do not do that, they will be strangling those businesses, This downturn is hurting people and businesses, but which will never have an opportunity to recover. the Government are not ducking the hard questions. We led the world in taking action to stabilise the banking Ian Pearson: The Government have a strong track system. We have put in place a £20 billion fiscal stimulus record in better regulation. At the moment, small businesses package to boost the economy. We have introduced a really want help with their cash flow, new customers range of targeted measures to provide real help to and the economy to get moving again. The actions that businesses, individuals and families. the Government are taking are all designed to achieve that. As the International Monetary Fund noted in its annual statement on the UK economy, our response has Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): been bold and wide ranging, and it has helped to Taking the Minister back to his point about boosting contain the impact of the global crisis on the country. lending, surely he must have seen the figures released The fact that this downturn is global means that we earlier this week showing that lending to consumers and need global action as well as action on the home front. businesses in the economy is at a low not seen since That is why the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have 1997. worked with our international partners to ensure that we have a co-ordinated global response to the economic Ian Pearson: Let me come on to lending directly. crisis. Although we have taken action, which has been opposed In April at the G20 summit meeting in London, by the Conservative party, at a macro-economic level to agreement was reached on collective action that is necessary provide a stimulus to the economy, it takes time to have to mitigate the risk of an even more severe downturn effect. In addition, the Bank of England has reduced while reshaping the financial system, preserving the interest rates to the lowest level in our history, at 0.5 per world trading system and laying the foundations for a cent., £125 billion of quantitative easing has been provided, sustainable recovery. and the current sterling exchange rate is highly competitive The London summit was an important step in the internationally. Those measures take time to filter through journey towards restored stability and economic growth to the real economy, which is why help is needed now. globally, and the Government are committed to ensuring If the hon. Gentleman wants to question me further that further progress is made between now and the next about lending, I would be happy to take a further meeting of leaders to be held in the US in September. intervention. As he will be aware, a number of banks Here at home, we have taken decisive steps to support have announced plans to increase lending to households the UK’s financial system, given its fundamental importance and businesses this year. HSBC will make £15 billion in to the basic functioning of our economy, and to provide mortgages available in 2009, and is allocating £1 billion real help for people and businesses. in extra loans to small and medium-sized enterprises in the UK. Barclays recently said it would lend a further Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): I hope that £5.5 billion to businesses this year, on top of a similar the Minister will still be in post this time next week so amount to individuals, and Northern Rock and several that he can give evidence to my Committee on the other lenders are following similar courses. automotive assistance programme. Is he aware of concern As the hon. Gentleman will be aware, we have ensured in the automotive supply chain that the French and that banks that have received Government support commit German Governments are giving much more direct to freeing up credit as part of the contractual terms. As 405 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 406 part of their participation in the asset protection scheme, Ian Pearson: If I may, I will mention the support for Lloyds Banking Group and RBS have been required to the automotive industry, which the hon. Gentleman sign legally binding agreements. Lloyds will lend about raised. I will happily appear before the Business and £11 billion extra to businesses this year and next and Enterprise Committee next week to discuss the automotive RBS about £16 billion, at commercial terms. That represents assistance programme. As he will be aware, it has two a significant pool of new lending available to business. parts, one of which is linked to guaranteeing loans from the European Investment Bank, and the other is a separate guarantee package. As he knows, Jaguar Land Mr. Hands: The Minister is being most generous in Rover has successfully applied to the European Investment giving way. A little earlier, he was claiming the credit for Bank, and we will have discussions about the Government the independent Bank of England’s cut in interest rates, guarantee as part of that package. We are also in yet most businesses will not borrow at 0.5 per cent. on discussions with a number of automotive companies account of the continuing large credit spreads in the about assisting them through the automotive assistance economy. What does he think about long-term interest programme. Given that the Government are providing rates at 4.5 per cent., which is nine times the short-term guarantees, it is naturally up to the companies to reach interest rates? The rates available for businesses to borrow agreements with the banks providing the loans, which at, assuming that they can find a bank willing to lend the Government will guarantee. I hope to make the money, are far higher than the 0.5 per cent. he announcements shortly about the AAP, but he will be quoted. aware that such deals can take a significant amount of time. When we are spending taxpayers’ money, it is right Ian Pearson: I was not seeking to take credit for the that we take precautions. The team in place in the actions of the Bank of England, which, as the hon. Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Gentleman is aware, is independent from Government. Reform is working hard with a number of companies in I was merely noting that on top of the fiscal stimulus the supply chain, and we can make a real difference to introduced by the Government, the aggressive actions some of those companies. taken by the Bank, and the level of interest rates, are all The Government have also recognised that many big macro-economic factors supporting the economy at businesses are worried about being able to meet their the moment. tax, national insurance, VAT and other payments owed The hon. Gentleman is right to point out that interest to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Those businesses rates are historically low, but small businesses in particular can call the business payment support line that we have still find it difficult to access credit on terms that they we set up. About 131,000 businesses have now been find acceptable. We continue to have discussions with given the leeway to defer tax payments worth more than banks about not only the quantum of lending but the £2.3 billion, giving them a significant breathing space rates of interest charged. Banks must make commercial during difficult times. On top of that, the Government decisions according to their assessment of risk and and their agencies, as major customers for good and creditworthiness, and a market adjustment has been services that UK businesses provide, have taken steps to occurring throughout the UK economy. I do not think help to ease the cash-flow problems of suppliers, by what is going on in the UK economy is at all different committing to pay bills within 10 days, bringing forward from what is going on in other advanced nations currently. an extra £8 billion of payments on top of the £58 billion already paid within 10 days. I want to mention the European Investment Bank and the onward lending to the small business community Mr. Hands: I think the Minister said he was worried successfully negotiated by the Government. The UK’s about whether businesses would be able to meet their share of overall EIB lending to small and medium-sized obligations to pay national insurance. Will he therefore enterprises has already increased from 2.2 per cent. in tell us why he is hiking national insurance up by 0.5 per 2007 to 12.3 per cent. in 2008, as part of a four-year cent? from next year, for employers and those employees deal that has been negotiated. It is also worth noting the earning more than £19,000—a tax on the many, not the Government’s enterprise finance guarantee scheme, which few? a number of Opposition Members criticised for being slow to spend, is proving extremely popular with businesses, Ian Pearson: The hon. Gentleman knows very well and we are confident that it will support about £1.3 billion what we said in the Budget about the need to provide of bank lending to smaller firms this year. The most real help to businesses and the economy now, and to recent figures I have suggest that about £420 million of provide a fiscal stimulus, but also to take a sustainable eligible applications from more than 3,800 firms have approach to the public finances. That is why we have been granted or are being processed or assessed. More made announcements on national insurance, top rates than 2,650 businesses have been offered loans totalling of income tax and pensions. The Government must more than £250 million. The scheme is therefore popular. make a balanced judgment on the economy and its future and ensure that we put public finances on a On top of that, the Government introduced the trade sustainable path. That is what we did in the Budget: credit insurance scheme in the Budget. From May 2009 taking actions now that will help people and businesses until the end of the year, suppliers are being given the get through difficult times, while ensuring a prudent chance to purchase six months’ top-up insurance from and sustainable approach to the public finances over private insurers, who are providing it on the Government’s the medium term. That, Mr. Speaker, is exactly what behalf up to an aggregate limit of £5 billion. That is real you would expect Government to do. help being provided to business. We are also setting out a strategic vision about how to provide more support to companies in the future, Peter Luff rose— through our White Paper, “New Industry, New Jobs” 407 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 408

[Ian Pearson] “The slowdown in lending serves as a warning that while some ‘green shoots’ are emerging in the economy, constrained access to and our industrial activism approach. That is important. credit and weak demand for loans in the private sector could yet We will continue to develop it, and I commend it to the kill them off.’ House. Unemployment continues to rise inexorably, and at its fastest rate since the second world war. The Minister’s 12.29 pm optimistic tone will not be echoed by the additional hundreds of thousands who are joining the dole queues Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): each quarter. In March, the level of unemployment had What extraordinary scenes! The Government have called already surpassed the forecasts for the whole of 2009 a debate on the economy, and the Chamber is practically that had been made in the 2008 pre-Budget report. The empty. The Minister arrived only just in time to present Budget predicted that the claimant count would rise to the Government’s case. I thought for a moment that he 2.44 million by the end of 2010, a figure that had might have packed his bags in anticipation of the official already exceeded by 1 million the one predicted only six announcement, and taken part in the DIY reshuffle months earlier in the pre-Budget report. The British that seems to have started earlier in the week. There Chambers of Commerce have predicted that it will appear to be no other Labour Members present to reach 3.2 million by the end of 2010, and the CBI has contribute to the debate. The Labour Benches are almost made a similar prediction. It seems that the age-old entirely empty: I see only the Whip and the Minister. adage—that all Labour Governments leave office with There is no sign of anyone else wishing to make a unemployment higher than when they took over—will speech in support of the Government’s policy on the prove to be true yet again. economy. If I were the Minister, I would go easy on trumpeting The debate takes place in unhappy circumstances. I claims for the success of Government schemes to help commend in advance all the members of my own party people and businesses through the recession. It emerged who are hoping to speak today, but it cannot be right earlier this week that just two home owners had been for the Government to try to meet the widespread helped by the Government’s flagship initiative to help demand, in the House and the country, for significant families avoid repossession. The mortgage rescue scheme time in which we can debate the economy by presenting has been running since January, during which time us with a debate lasting only an hour and a half on nearly 20,000 homes are thought to have been seized, election day, when an empty Chamber can be almost but only two households have been helped. guaranteed. Let us consider two of the Government’s schemes for Peter Luff: Would we not have been greatly assisted if business. I do not know whether the Government can this had been a substantive motion? The House could provide more up-to-date figures, but the most recent then have expressed its view, rather than merely debating publicly available figures suggest that the capital for the motion. enterprise fund announced in November 2008 has yet to invest a single pound in any business. Furthermore, Mr. Hands: That would indeed have been very helpful. according to the Minister for Employment Relations The Government have been running away from any and Postal Affairs the £1.3 billion enterprise finance debate of substance on the economy for many months. guarantee scheme has loaned just £92.6 million to industry, It was only a full Opposition day debate on the subject despite also being announced last November. That in March that finally prompted the Government to call represents just 7 per cent. of the funds available. their own debate in the week before Easter. Apart from Meanwhile—and I hear this across the country—big allowing the usual scheduled debates on the Budget and Government rises in business rates continue to hurt. the Finance Bill, the Government have been running One easy way of helping small and medium-sized away from being scrutinised on the economy for the enterprises would be to make small business rate relief past six months. automatic. Why did the Government oppose the private The Minister tried to talk about green shoots. It is Member’s Bill presented recently by my hon. Friend the true that the rate of decline in the UK economy appears Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Peter Luff), which to have abated in some areas. Manufacturing industry would have done precisely that? As I said earlier, however, and the service sector are not as downbeat as they were the way in which the Government could really help a few months ago. Nevertheless, we have already experienced business is by sorting out the public finances. Unfortunately the longest recession in decades, and if there is joy at for the Government and the country, the position is seeing light at the end of the tunnel, it is mainly because going from bad to worse. We are still deep in the tunnel, we have been underground for so long. with no chinks of light to be seen. Government borrowing We welcome any signs of improvement in the economy. in April—in just one month—was an incredible £8.5 billion. After four quarters of no growth or negative growth, we That is a record, and it is five times as much as was desperately need some signs that improvement will come. borrowed in the same month last year. We have always thought and said that growth would Even according to the Government’s own highly return in 2009, although we have questioned, and continue questionable statistical basis, net debt has already risen to question, the Government’s growth forecasts for the from the mid-40s to 53.2 per cent. of GDP. It is at its years ahead. However, there are conflicting signs in the highest level since the 53.8 per cent. that we saw when real economy. The Minister presented some of the the country was shamefully bailed out by the IMF in highlights, which we welcome, but we should be realistic 1976. The United Kingdom has been publicly downgraded about the complete picture. Lending to companies and by Standard and Poor’s for the first time ever, or at least households fell in April for the first time since 1997. since its credit was rated for the first time in 1978. Our Earlier this week, the Financial Times commented: credit prospects are negative. That will add yet further 409 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 410 to our borrowing costs, especially the costs of any 12.40 pm non-domestic borrowings. It will also shrink the investor base for our debt products, as some investors are not Dr. John Pugh (Southport) (LD): I do not know able to hold anything less than AAA-rated assets. whether this is a dead-end debate slot, but I do know that I have only six minutes to say all that needs to be Thanks to the public finances, borrowing rates for said about the economy and business, and I also know businesses are far higher than they should be in this how strict you are, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in enforcing recession. As I said earlier, long-term interest rates are such time limits. Saying all that needs to be said in such an incredible nine times higher than short-term interest a brief period presents something of a challenge because rates. Credit spreads on variable-rate borrowings are relatively little has been said recently in either this place still too wide. Whether we look at variable or fixed-rate or the media about the economy and business. Far more funding, it is clear that the long-term funding needed by has been said about the home economics of MPs. We businesses is still far too expensive. Moreover, the live in a strange world at present, where a £5 claim for Government are crowding out business borrowers from an offertory is given as much precedence in terms of the capital markets with their huge gilt auctions newspaper headlines as was the attack on the twin It seems that no one believes the Government’s forecasts towers. of a trampoline recovery. We hope and expect there to In a way, however, that might not be such a bad thing, be some growth in the economy before the end of the because when the focus was on the economy, that led to year, but it is difficult to share the Government’s optimism a rush of Government headline-grabbing initiatives that that there will be a 3.5 per cent. rate of growth next were not well thought-through, and to the media ceaselessly year. Of course we would love that to be true, but we attempting to pile on the misery, darken the gloom and suspect some political massaging of the figures. Indeed, depress optimism. Every statistical device known to I read that the Prime Minister wanted the figures to be man was used to illustrate that, when compared with even more fixed than those that I have cited. On Tuesday, the great depression of the 1930s, the black death and The Times reported that so forth, the severity of current circumstances was “the Prime Minister tried to upgrade the growth forecasts to unrivalled. make the economic outlook appear rosier than it was; the Chancellor refused.” I am not trying to pretend that the economy is not in We urgently need to hear from the Minister what really serious difficulties and an unexpectedly bad state, but I happened. Are the growth forecasts in the Red Book drew attention to the media effect on confidence in an from No. 10, or are they from the Treasury? Did the early-day motion that I tabled some time ago. I called Prime Minister try to intervene, as The Times claimed? for that to be studied, because is it not a strange Perhaps he intervened successfully, and those growth coincidence that some slight signs of recovery—of forecasts are the result of his intervention. bottoming out—are arising in a period of relative media neglect? While democratic institutions are taking a It would also be helpful to hear the Minister’s response hammering, the ailing economy is enjoying something to the harsh criticisms of the Government’s quantitative of a media respite. easing programme made earlier this week by the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel. She said: I make this point because I was receiving a consistent “What other central banks have been doing must be reversed. I message from my constituents a few months ago. They am very sceptical about the extent of the Fed’s actions and the were saying, “Yes, business is in a fix, and we know that way the bank of England has carved its own little line in Europe”. these are difficult, hard and tough times, but we could That is another extraordinary attack from a foreign do without the media larding it on and exaggerating the leader on the Government’s economic policy. May I ask extent of the depression.” The local media do not do the Minister whether, at the G20 summit and at last that, because they do not want to depress confidence month’s ECOFIN meeting, Germany raised its opposition unduly as they recognise that they need advertisers and to the quantitative easing programme with the Prime that those advertisers are local businesses. Minister or the Chancellor? Although no Labour Members except the Minister Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Does the hon. are present for it, this may well end up being an historic Gentleman also recognise that when dealing with matters debate. It may well be the last debate on the economy to affecting our local economy, which is very important, take place while the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the the most important thing we can do is stand up for right hon. Member for Edinburgh, South-West manufacturing industry and the people who really matter? (Mr. Darling) is Chancellor. This could be how it all We must protect their jobs and interests, and do everything finished: a dead-end debate slot on European election we can to ensure that they can survive in the current day with virtually no one present to witness the end of it difficult circumstances. all. The Chancellor would be like a modern-day Eleanor Rigby. Instead of coming here to talk about the economy, Dr. Pugh: I do accept that, but I want to make the the Chancellor is somewhere else fighting for his political point that there is a big difference between how the survival. Britain deserves better than this, and that is whole issue has been treated from start to finish by the why we are calling for a general election. I thank my local media, which in a sense depend on local industry, hon. Friends in advance for participating in this debate, and by national media, such as the BBC, which do not. but the whole Conservative party wants to debate the I simply point that out. The effect of that may be economy, and for longer than an hour and a half; we marginal, but it is nevertheless real. Mark Vitner, senior want a full, four-week debate in a general election economist of Wachovia, recently commented on the campaign. Moreover, a general election is what the fragile recovery in business confidence in the US and country wants and so desperately needs. warned that: 411 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 412

[Dr. Pugh] 12.47 pm

“People’s expectations were built on such things as newspaper Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): I am headlines.” very pleased to have been called to contribute to this debate because during all the years that I have been a Let me turn now to the main subject of our debate: Member of Parliament I have fought for, campaigned the expectations of business. We are going through for and promoted UK manufacturing—indeed, so much tough times, and there is an expectation that Government so that Members on both sides of the House have will help. In good times, good business does not need identified me as “Mr. Manufacturing Industry, MP.” any help, but most businesses currently do. Genuine I have stood up for manufacturing industry under successive attempts to help have been made; the Minister listed Governments. During the 18 years of Conservative some of them. The Government have pressured banks government, I formed the Manufacturing and Construction to lend and also to maintain credit, which is very Industries Alliance, which was a partnership between important. They are also trying to create a more benign big and small industry, trade unions and all who believed tax environment; there is some evidence of that in the that manufacturing industry is one of the only sources current Finance Bill. They are spreading business rate of non-inflationary, sustainable economic growth. I payments, too, and increasing advice. More national believed that when I first entered the House, and I believe and European grants are coming forward as well. However, it today, and I also believe that, sadly, successive much of the help is rushed, poorly communicated and, Governments have often sacrificed manufacturing industry at times, ineffectual. It also does not address real and in this country unnecessarily. reasonable requests. One of them has already been mentioned: the automatic small business rate relief would In my local area, I am at present deeply concerned not cost the Treasury anything, but it would be enormously that the largest employer, AstraZeneca, a world-renowned beneficial to many local businesses. pharmaceutical company, is reducing its work force in Businesses also notice that the help they are being both my constituency and that of my immediate neighbour given is incommensurate with the help being given to and colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Tatton banks, who were the authors of the general misfortune (Mr. Osborne), by some 1,500 jobs over a three-year in the first place, and who still pressure viable businesses period. Those jobs are not disappearing entirely, but rather more than businesses that are likely to default. In they are disappearing from Macclesfield—both at the other words, they put pressure on businesses that are Hurdsfield plant and the big research development doing reasonably well and tighten their access to credit, plant at Alderley park—because the company is transferring because they know that if they put pressure on businesses the jobs to China and Mexico. Why is it doing that? One that are likely to fail, they themselves will be the losers. might say that it is doing that because it is a global company, but it is also doing it because the cost of those Expectations are not being met, therefore, but then jobs is much less in China and Mexico. Over the years few expectations are being met these days. Few people the company has also transferred jobs to India. One expected the current economic mess, or the scale of it; may say that there is a good reason for it to do so, but few expert economists, global pundits or parliamentarians the message I am trying to get across to the Government did so. However, that has not stopped everybody now is that they should not increase the cost of employment rushing in to make further predictions with the same and of manufacturing industry unnecessarily. confidence as in the past. The best of the predictions do little more than encapsulate current trends. The CBI The Government could take many steps at the moment recently said: to reduce the costs to manufacturing industry. It will see “Although we were deep in recession, the rate of contraction is us come out of this recession, because things produced slowing markedly.” in this country at a competitive price and to a standard That still augurs that we are going to have increased that people want, and delivered as such, are the real unemployment, more bankruptcies, more pressure on wealth creator, which should be encouraged. A smaller public finances and a painful clawing back to prosperity. company in Poynton in my constituency, Aearo Ltd, Fiscal stimulus, or natural retrenchment, may owned by 3M, is sadly closing its plant there and efficiently—or haphazardly—be working as an economic transferring the jobs to Poland—again, because of the brake, although we recognise that there is a cost to that cost advantages of operating in that country. The in terms of the public finances. The big problems, Government should take these matters very seriously. however, are structural, on both an international and a I turn to a matter relating to the Ministry of Defence. national, British, basis. China and the USA remain On the periphery of my constituency is the BAE Systems trapped in a Faustian pact whereby the productivity of facility at Woodford, where the Nimrod aircraft, which one requires the indebtedness and refinancing of the is on order for the RAF, is produced. I pay a huge other. The world financial system requires a remarkable tribute to the trade unions there for the way in which, revision, but it does not have the capacity to implement over recent years, they have worked in complete co-operation it. The British economy has similar major structural with the management in order to produce a good aircraft problems. Unlike Sweden and the Czech Republic, we to the MOD’s delivery and specification requirements. have not learned to protect our manufacturing base. We Of course there have been problems in the past—about are also grossly dependent on the footloose service and which industry would one say that there have been no financial industries. We have not been filling the skills difficulties between management and labour in the past?— gap either, and there has not been any real attempt to but at this facility full co-operation has been given. square the circle, so to speak, of matching increased The MOD has ordered nine Nimrods—the initial prosperity with diminishing social inequality. We are in order was very much larger and it has subsequently a fix, and it is a structural fix. Unless we address these been cut—but it is now looking, under Project Helix, fundamental issues, we will find ourselves in a deeper for another three aircraft. I believe that the MOD’s R1 fix still. mission system upgrade project could utilise the MRA4, 413 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 414 and if it does so, that would extend the work force and have also called on the Government to cut national the employment at Woodford for a further two years. insurance contributions by a penny in the pound for However, the MOD is looking at the American Rivet small companies with fewer than five employees. I know Joint, which is a Boeing aircraft that is some 40 years that those are small measures, but they are all valuable. old—these planes are currently lying in the desert, but I On insolvency, small and medium-sized enterprises should am sure that they are being properly maintained—and be able to apply for a short breathing space during the thought is to lease three. which they would be able to come up with a restructuring I have met the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, plan, rather than go out of business. We want to save as the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies), many businesses as we can. who has responsibility for procurement, to discuss this The Government have sought to act on prompt payment, matter. I have done so along with representatives of the and I give them credit for doing so. As the Minister Labour party and the Liberal Democrats, because we knows, lots of small businesses provide goods and want to ensure that our expertise in aerospace continues. services to local authorities, with payment normally We believe that the MOD’s R1 mission system upgrade coming within 30 days. Some local authorities, appreciating project could be properly fulfilled by the MRA platform the position of small businesses, have implemented a and that there is therefore a Nimrod MRA4-based 20-day rule, and I warmly welcome that. solution to what the MOD requires. The Government can help, so they should retain high-tech engineering Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) jobs in this country, rather than go to another country (Con): My hon. Friend will perhaps be excited to learn for purchases that can be fulfilled within our own that Conservative-run Westminster city council has manufacturing sector. instituted a seven-day repayment rule. On his previous Having made a plea on behalf of certain industries point, although much is said about the idea of trying to and companies in my constituency, may I say, as has introduce a chapter 11-type pause in the insolvency been said from the Front Benches by my hon. Friend regime, this country’s regime is extremely flexible and the Member for Hammersmith and Fulham (Mr. Hands) administration provides that opportunity, instead of and the hon. Member for Southport (Dr. Pugh), who companies having to go towards fully-fledged liquidation. speaks for the Liberal Democrats, that despite receiving unprecedented valuable bail-outs from the taxpayer—the Sir Nicholas Winterton: I very much respect the experience Treasury—the banks and other financial institutions of my hon. Friend, who represents Cities of London are still providing little or inadequate help to hard-pressed and Westminster, which, of course, is home to the core businesses and individuals via increased lending? of the financial services in this country. I know the very I have an interest in the construction industry, because close relationship that he has with those in his constituency, I worked in it before I came into this House, and I who are the powerhouse of our economy. understand it pretty well. In my view, it is market forces As I was saying, some local authorities have implemented that have constricted the housing market, and not the a 20-day rule on payments—I am delighted that financial institutions per se. I am not sure whether the Westminster city council has implemented a seven-day Minister agrees with that observation. My view is that rule—and bearing in mind that local authorities are falling house prices are mirroring the economy at any dealing with taxpayers’ money, I am sure that most one time, and those will correct themselves gradually taxpayers are very happy with that sort of policy and I once the economy has recovered. However, I stress that hope that it can be followed by many other local authorities. the lending banks and institutions must do more to help Just a few days can make all the difference in terms of stimulate this country’s housing market. paying bills and staff, and helping businesses to survive, The plight of small to medium-sized businesses is so I urge the Government to approach local authorities serious. They are the powerhouse of the modern economy, to get them to adopt the shortest possible payment yet the commercial banks are still refusing to lend to period in order to help business at this time. struggling businesses. One thing that greatly annoys As I said in a question to the Prime Minister, there and frustrates me is that HBOS, which is now part of are currently 2.73 million manufacturing jobs in the the Lloyds Banking Group, is refusing to lend to a UK, down 160,000 on the year and down from 4.5 million highly successful, long-standing company in my in 1997. Productivity in manufacturing was down 4.1 per constituency. Like many companies, it is going through cent. in the final quarter of last year on the previous difficult times and has cash flow problems, and HBOS quarter, and that compared to a 1.8 per cent. fall for the is refusing to honour commitments to it. Having received whole of the economy. The figures are from the Office huge handouts from the taxpayer, the banks, rather for National Statistics. I hope that the Minister will than merely representing their own interests, should recognise the true value of our manufacturing industries seek to represent the interests of the economy of this to the stability and future success of the United Kingdom. country. Will the Government seek to reverse the crippling As the Minister will be aware, small businesses often £16 billion burden of constantly changing regulations operate on their overdraft facilities, rather than on and the £7 billion a year new taxes that they have loans, which are aimed more at development and introduced, which are a drag on manufacturing industry, expansions. The Opposition have made some important making us less competitive? proposals, which my hon. Friend the Member for The Minister mentioned France and Germany, and I Hammersmith and Fulham dealt with briefly, and called agree that they have had severe problems, mainly—and on the Government to act to assist industry in a more this does go against my argument—because so much of positive way than they are doing at the moment. One their economies is manufacturing based. While they do action could relate to our proposals to cut corporation produce manufactured goods, they have no market for tax and to cut payroll taxes for small companies; we them if the country to which they sell them does not 415 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 416

[Sir Nicholas Winterton] The sad truth is that although the economy is the most important issue for this country and our constituents, have the money to pay for them. We must not force the Government have chosen to have a one and a half more of our manufacturers out of business or into hour debate on it on a day when the local and European relocating abroad. When the economy recovers—as an elections are distracting our attention. Until a few moments optimist I believe that it will—we will need manufacturing. ago, the Government had not even been able to persuade A new report out recently from Policy Exchange a single one of their Back Benchers to support their reveals how the Prime Minister’s second spending spree position here. That is an astonishing rejection by the is set to reach 50 per cent. of GDP—a stark figure Government and their supporters of the importance of indeed—and that is not because of the recession. The the economy. report also calls for an emergency Budget and a spending The title of the debate also refers to “supporting freeze. Government spending is growing far more quickly business”. The implication is that direct intervention by than in other countries, and faster than in previous the Government can solve the problems of business. At recessions. This perceptive and important report finds the moment, the principal problem in this country and that the surge in spending is not being driven by the the rest of the world is a shortage of demand for all the recession. At most, it says, only 6 per cent. of the resources and people available to produce goods and increased spending is going on public works, and just services. As long as the principal problem is that shortage over a third is due to the rising cost of social security or of demand, merely switching an element of that demand debt. Instead of “investment”, most of the increase is through the tax system to be spent elsewhere will not due to a decision to spend more on consumption. alleviate the problem. Money can be spent on the The report also argues that all budgets, except social automobile industry, but it will be at the expense of security, tax credits and debt interest, could be frozen at money spent elsewhere. That may receive support from 2008-09 levels, resulting in savings of £87 billion on the people in the auto industry, but it destroys jobs elsewhere. Government’s current plans. I have considerable respect It is only measures to restore the aggregate demand in for the Minister—I know his background and I used to the economy to employ all the resources available that work in the area that he represents—so I say with some will ultimately support industry. regret that the truth is that history has a habit of We should be considering measures that will restore repeating itself, and yet again it is a Labour Government the growth of demand and thus the growth of economic who have brought the UK to the brink of bankruptcy. output and employment. In my view, the key to that is As Chancellor of the Exchequer, the current Prime money. It may be an old-fashioned view, but money is Minister squandered the growth that he inherited from very important. If people have money in their pockets, the last Conservative Government and he now has to fix they will be inclined to spend it. If they do not have the problems that his Government have created. money, they will not be able to spend it. If they have History shows that successive Labour Governments, inadequate supplies of money, they will save and scrimp sadly, always leave the country deeper in debt. The to try to build up their money balances. If one person present Government will have doubled the national saves money, less money goes to other people, and the debt to more than £1 trillion, so that anyone earning total output of the economy is not altered. more than £20,000 will have to pay more tax. Rampant I think that the Government had the right intention borrowing and tax rises will make the recession worse with quantitative easing. We need measures to boost the and the recovery more difficult, because they undermine supply of money in the economy. People may think that the confidence in the future that is crucial to the recovery that is an unusual thing for me to say. I am a longstanding of economy. monetarist, and many of my monetarist friends are I make a plea to the Government and, perhaps just as suspicious about printing money, because it can be a strongly, to my own party, which has not always been cause of inflation—especially if too much is printed. the best friend to manufacturing, although it does appreciate However, if there is an insufficiency of money—the the role that manufacturing can play, to ensure that collapse of the banking system threatened to destroy the measures that we introduce take fully into account money—more money must be created. That is why it the problems facing the manufacturing industry and the was essential for the Government to prop up the banking important role that it can play in the recovery of our system. If banks collapse they destroy money in the economy. economy. In a developed economy, money normally comes from banks increasing their lending. That is what creates additional money. 1.5 pm If I were to lend my distinguished hon. Friend the Mr. Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): Bill Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) Clinton had a sign over his desk that said: £100, I would be £100 worse off, he would be £100 better off and there would be no increase in the money “It’s the economy, stupid”. supply. If he, however, were to go to the bank and say, It was there to remind him that although people claimed “Can I increase my overdraft by £100?,” that would that the electorate were interested in other matters, it create £100. There would be £100 extra in the economy— was the economy that mattered most. It is the economy and when he spent it, as I am sure he would in due that matters most to the people in my constituency and, course, that money would circulate through the economy. I suspect, in most other constituencies. Even the anger Banks create money, but when banks are retrenching on that has been experienced over allowances, and before their lending they destroy money. They call in loans and that over bonuses for bankers, is fuelled by people’s fear do not replace them, and there is less money in the and uncertainty about their own economic prospects, economy. That is why it was necessary and right for the and we should not forget that. Government to do something like quantitative easing to 417 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 418 ensure that enough money was circulating in the economy. “Stuff that for a lark. Forget about Keynes. Just get It takes a little time for that to happen, but I think that your books balanced again, raise your taxes, reduce it will happen. It might be part of the reason why we are your spending and that will restore confidence and get seeing at least a slow-down in the recession and even things going.” And it worked. I went to a seminar some signs that it is bottoming out, even if we are not recently at which someone who was one of the yet seeing a resumption of growth. Government’s chief economic advisers at the time said that they were astonished at how rapidly it worked, and Mr. Mark Field: My right hon. Friend rightly points how rapidly the economy started recovering thereafter. out some of the concerns about the level of quantitative In 1980-81 the economy appeared to be in freefall, easing. Given the amount of money that has been with a decline in output. At the same time, there was a printed by the Government, much of which to date is terrible deficit. The then Chancellor, Geoffrey Howe, being hoarded by the banks, there is a potential inflationary had the courage to say, “We’ve got to get the public problem. He says “provided that too much money is not finances back into order if we are to restore confidence printed.” How on earth can we possibly judge when that and resume growth.” Then 364 economists, led by the point is reached—when too much has been printed, or, man who taught me monetary economics—or tried to, indeed, is about to be unleashed into the economy at as I am happy to say that I did not imbibe all his large? views—published an open letter to the Chancellor saying that there was no reason in theory or in past experience Mr. Lilley: My hon. Friend’s question could be rephrased, to believe that if he persisted with his policy it could “How are we to know when too little money has been lead to anything other than an intensification of the printed, when too little money is available or when too recession. If we plot what happened, we can see that the much money has been destroyed by the banks’retrenching?” economy was in freefall until 13 March, the day that We have to make a judgment. The Bank of England they published that letter. From then onwards, a V-shaped spelled out what it thinks is necessary and it will do it in recovery began. They were completely factually wrong. a series of tranches. It is not proposing a Zimbabwean We know from experience that it can sometimes be right type of inflation, but an increase of a few percentage to get a grip on the public finances. That restores points in the supply of money. In general, an economy confidence and leads to a resumption of growth. The needs to see the money supply growing by a few percentage same applied in 1992. points more than the real growth that one hopes to achieve. We need to get back to that, and as long as the That, of course, is why the Government, despite all Bank does not overdo it, that is sensible. their rhetoric and talk about an additional fiscal stimulus, have not introduced an additional fiscal stimulus on top By contrast, reliance on a fiscal stimulus seems likely of what is already happening through the automatic to be less effective, and there is less scope for it in the stabilisers. They are right not to take that risk. On the British economy than might be desirable. If we started other hand the German Government, which is in a from a position whereby the Government had a very much better position, ought to be increasing spending, low deficit, or a surplus, it would be worth a try. It borrowing and trying to get their economy going. Other would be worth the Government’s saying, “Let’s give a economies that are in that happy position should do fiscal stimulus by borrowing to spend.” However, when likewise. a Government start with a huge deficit, any further increase in that deficit is likely to destroy confidence, and as a result, have a negative rather than a positive Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): As a effect on the total level of demand in the economy. simple-minded Keynesian speaking to a simple-minded That is not just a theoretical point. The European monetarist, may I say that if the right hon. Gentleman Central Bank and economists from the European looks at the pattern of fiscal support for the economy Commission have both separately carried out analyses across Europe and the G8, he will see that, astonishingly, of all the studies that have been published of attempts the support provided by the different Governments is to use fiscal stimulus, in Europe and elsewhere, to very similar? The only variance is whether it takes place stimulate the economy in the post-war period. They through automatic stabilisers or a separate fiscal stimulus. both show that on a majority of occasions when The pattern of support is very similar, and that blows a Governments have attempted to use the Keynesian hole in much of his argument. weapons of borrowing to boost demand, it has had the opposite effect to what simple-minded Keynesians might Mr. Lilley: My argument was based on the fact of have predicted. On half the occasions when Governments what has happened in the past rather than projections have boosted borrowing, that has led to deflation. On of what might be happening now. We shall see. It might other occasions when they have reduced borrowing, provide an interesting test case if we come back in three even in a recession, it has led to a resumption of growth. or four years’ time and argue it out. The hon. Lady That is not something that should be too unfamiliar describes herself as a simple-minded Keynesian and me to us in this country. We have had three major recessions as a simple-minded monetarist, but if we are both since the late ’70s. In 1976, the Labour Government simple-minded enough to say that we should look at the faced a terrible recession with a huge and burgeoning evidence, we will see that the evidence is clear. The deficit. The Keynesians among them said, “Let’s add to evidence is not just what I have put forward; the evidence it. Let’s borrow even more, spend even more and try to has been put forward by the European Central Bank in get out of this recession.” Unfortunately, there was a its study of studies and the European Commission in its run on the pound and they had to call in the International study of studies, and the conclusion they have come to Monetary Fund—the only time the IMF has ever been is that on a lot of occasions the Keynesian stimulus called in to a developed economy—and the IMF said, does not work and has a contrary effect. 419 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 420

[Mr. Lilley] nutrient that they could need, but there was no support for the measure, and it was badly timed and badly I am relatively optimistic that a recovery might soon focused. It was a pure gimmick—but it will cost be under way, because we will see the normal inventory £120 million. The deficit is made up of thousands of cycle reverse. When final demand for goods falls, as it £120 millions, and we have to get a grip on them and fell after the Lehman effect with the collapse in confidence stop giving the money away. across the world, that is amplified as companies do not merely reduce their demand by the 10 per cent. fall-off Ms Keeble: There is clear medical evidence that if we in final demand but reduce their inventories, too. Back support women during pregnancy, particularly with down the supply chain, the 10 per cent. decline in food, for which they need money, the outcome for demand might become a 20 per cent. decline and then a babies is improved. In particular, doing so tackles the 50 per cent. decline in demand for components. We have problem of low-birthweight babies, which is a problem seen that across the world, and it is partly why the great in some of our inner cities. That measure is a practical manufacturing economies, despite the great strengths way of tackling that problem. that my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) pointed out, suffer a particularly Mr. Lilley rose— sharp downturn during that inventory cycle. It merely has to stop, in a sense, for it to reverse. When people stop reducing their inventories, that feeds back through Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. Before the chain and produces a sharp rise in output, even if it the right hon. Gentleman responds, may I say that we does not go back to the level it was at before the crisis are rapidly running out of time, and there are more began. We may see that inventory cycle go through its hon. Members who want to speak? Perhaps he would normal process. bear that in mind. My worry is more for the longer term. Again, I just Mr. Lilley: I apologise for going on for so long. It was look at the evidence. What evidence have we for what a mistake for me to bring up a detailed issue. There are happens when a modern developed economy experiences clearly arguments in favour of the measure concerned, a banking crisis and a subsequent recession? The only but at a time of national emergency we ought to be such experience that we have is that of Japan. It did saying, “Not now.” We have done without it for the past many of the things that we have done, but in a slightly 50 years; we can do without it for the next five years. different order, and some people say that it did not do Until the Government learn to say, “Not now. No new them fast enough. It managed to avoid the worst of a projects or programmes. Let’s get a grip on the ones that recession, but it had 10 years of sluggish growth. My we have,” we will not avoid the prospect of 10 years of fear is that if we do not get rid of the overhang of both sluggish growth. public and private debt as speedily as possible we, too, may first enjoy something of a recovery but then have quite a sustained period of sluggish growth. 1.23 pm That is why it is absolutely vital that the Government Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): realise the supreme importance of getting a grip on the Despite the fact that Scarborough was recently voted nation’s finances. We face the most enormous deficit; it the most enterprising town in Britain, and went on to is unbelievably large. Effectively, the Government are the finals in Prague, where it was voted the most enterprising saying, “We will borrow to finance the entire military, town in Europe, we have not managed to buck the trend education and law and order budgets, and much of the of this Labour recession. Between April 2008 and April health budget, too.”If we closed down all the Departments 2009, unemployment has gone up by 68.7 per cent.; that concerned, it would just about eliminate the deficit, but is 1,000 more people out of work. I certainly hope that the Government will not close The biggest shock to our local economy was the them down. We have to look for savings wherever and closure of the two Greaves printing works. On 9 April whenever we can find them. 2008, almost 200 jobs were lost at the gravure print I can tell the Economic Secretary to the Treasury that works, and on 30 January 2009, 200 jobs were lost at the I have been responsible for the biggest-spending Department finishing works. On the day of the European elections, in Government, and I have seen the problems and people ask, “What are the benefits of Europe?” and pressures of trying to control public expenditure from some might answer, “Structural funding has gone into within the Treasury. The single most important thing, the former coalfield areas and into the areas where and the first thing, that one must learn to do is to say heavy industry is in decline,” but ironically it is precisely no. Until we can stop inventing new ways of spending because Polestar printing got a £6-million grant from money, we will not get a grip on the total imbalance the European Commission under objective 1 funding between our propensity to spend and our ability to raise for its new print works in Sheffield that the print works revenue through taxation. The Government keep adding in Scarborough has had to close. The law of unintended to the burdens. I get summoned, as Members do, to sit consequences has come into action. on little Delegated Legislation Committees. There was The building and construction market is dire. The one the other day that proposed spending an extra second-home market for premium flats on the seafront £120 million on some benefit for expectant mothers. is holding up reasonably well, possibly because many Even the Liberals, I am happy to say, thought that the people cannot see the point of keeping their savings in measure was complete rubbish and voted against it, as the building society given the low interest rates being did I. Nobody on the Committee thought that the offered, and because of the worry that there may be benefit would do any good to anybody. I am generally inflation coming down the road as a result of quantitative in favour of feeding expectant mothers every kind of easing. However, the market for residential property, 421 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 422 and certainly new-build property, is very poor indeed. gains tax planning. All sorts of reliefs that are available Given that people previously got 95 or even 100 per for business assets, such as roll-over, hold-over and cent. mortgages, I suppose that now that they are being entrepreneur’s relief, will no longer be available. told that they need a 10 or 20 per cent. deposit, it is not We know why the Government did that; it was because surprising that there will be a time lag before people in many people had second homes on the coast, or even rented accommodation come into the market, if indeed abroad, and it was seen as unfair that they could use the they can save that money. cost of running those holiday homes, assuming that The automotive industry is doing better in Scarborough they let them for 140 days, against their income from than in other parts of the country, mainly because the their ordinary jobs, but the case of farm cottages is Plaxton bus factory and the Bluebird coach factory are entirely different. They are a diversification of a business. selling to local authorities and to the public sector. Of Farmers do not stay in their holiday cottages, but the course, the McCain chip factory makes the ultimate cottages are usually in the farmyard. They are an integral counter-cyclical product; there is nothing like a bit of part of the steading. In many cases the planning permission comfort food during a recession. given by the local authority or the national park authority means that those holiday cottages cannot be sold off Of course, the lifeblood of Scarborough and Whitby separately from the unit. In fact, in some cases, land is the tourism industry, and the weak pound is helping cannot be sold off separately from that unit. I hope that there, as people are choosing not to go abroad. As a the Minister will look at that problem and make sure result of the uncertainty, people are leaving it later and that we can do something to try to help the hard-pressed later before they make their booking. In fact, last year, I tourist industry in my constituency. asked an hotelier in Whitby on a Thursday what the bookings were like for the weekend, and he said, “It’s 1.30 pm too early to say.” People wait for the weather forecast on Thursday night, or even on Friday, before they go Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) online and book their rooms. Fortunately, weather forecasts (Con): I agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for are more accurate than some of the Chancellor’s forecasts Macclesfield (Sir Nicholas Winterton) and, indeed, with in the Budget. For example, the Economic Secretary to my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith and the Treasury mentioned the fact that the economy had Fulham (Mr. Hands) on the Front Bench, when they contracted by 1.9 per cent. That was announced by the referred to the fantasy figures that undermined much of Office for National Statistics only two days after the the recent Budget. The very idea that there might be Chancellor had forecast a 1.6 per cent. contraction in 3.5 per cent. growth during the year after next provided the economy. In fact, Treasury forecasts are so consistently the Government with a very convenient alibi with which wrong that they are in the same league as Michael Fish to avoid making some of the tough decisions that they was when he told us not to worry about that hurricane. must make on public expenditure. Those decisions have effectively now been delayed until after the next general I should like to flag up a couple of issues that affect election. the tourist industry, and they give another example of My hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith and the law of unintended consequences. The first point is Fulham rightly recalled the emergence of the International about the threshold for VAT registration. We are trying Monetary Fund, as, indeed, did my right hon. Friend to make Scarborough and Whitby a 12-month-a-year the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley). resort, but all too often, when it gets to February or We went to the IMF some 33 years ago, and the big March and the owners of small guest houses look at worry in many people’s minds is that we will have to their turnover for the year, they see that they are on the return to it. I suspect that, if we do go down that path, point of breaching the £68,000 VAT threshold. It makes the Government will do all they can to avoid it happening more sense for them to close down their guest house on their watch. and go to Tenerife for a few weeks than to stay open. It As the Member for the City of London, I believe that is a real problem. If they go over the threshold, they in the months ahead several pressing issues will emerge have to pay VAT on all the money that they have taken in our financial heartlands. As the Minister knows, two since the previous April. I do not know whether Ministers of the big four domestic banks are now all but fully are thinking about how that could be addressed. Perhaps nationalised. One of those, Lloyds Banking Group, we will have to leave it to the next Government to try to contains what might euphemistically be called “assets” come up with a solution to that problem. from HBOS, which engaged in a series of balance-sheet On holiday lets, bookings are up, but I am concerned boosting debt-for-equity deals during the boom years in about changes in the Budget that affect the holiday let the middle of this decade. As a consequence, Lloyds market. From April 2010, income from holiday lets will Banking Group has large holdings in a swathe of leading no longer be classified as earned income; it will instead UK companies. Doubtless, many such household names be classified as unearned income. One consequence is will require refinancing as the downturn proceeds, and that income from that side of the business cannot be their financial rescue will come from the taxpayers’ offset against income other than other property income. coffers, for obvious reasons. In short, before long, That affects many small farms that have invested in considerably large parts of mainstream corporate UK their farm buildings, and converted them into holiday could end up being effectively nationalised. lets. Those farms now find that the two businesses We need to use some much smarter intelligence to nip cannot be offset against each other. Also, income from regulatory problems in the bud. An enhanced role for such holiday lets now does not qualify as “relevant the Bank of England is very much a part of my party’s earnings” for pension fund contributions. Such holiday policy, but that development will have to be accompanied cottages can no longer be considered a business asset, by the appointment of some high-calibre, trusted and and that will have far-reaching implications for capital respected professionals to the Bank’s top roles. That in 423 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 424

[Mr. Mark Field] now hold vast sums of cash and are ready to reinvest in the market, courtesy of the Bank of England’s policy of turn should be augmented by the emergence of prosecutors promoting liquidity. with US-style status to replace what I am afraid is an I accept that now that we live in a globalised economy, increasingly discredited Serious Fraud Office. Nothing this crisis is certainly different in magnitude from any less will restore the confidence of market professionals that we have ever seen. One of the grand old names of and the public at large. British banking, Barings, collapsed owing what seems I fear that the banking bail-outs will turn out to be an like a minuscule amount, £780 million, only 14 years expensive failure. Indeed, that has already been proved ago. Today, the Royal Bank of Scotland survives courtesy to a large extent, and I do not entirely agree with the only of a £26 billion bail-out. However, we can learn earlier comments of my right hon. Friend the Member lessons from the past. As I mentioned earlier, we need for Hitchin and Harpenden. The lesson that we must to restore the distinction between retail and investment learn is that any institution that is deemed too big to be banking which, in the US at least, existed for more than allowed to fail will forever be prey to reckless risk-taking. six decades until the Clinton Administration repealed If banks cannot fail, they cannot effectively be regulated, the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999. At that juncture, it was because regulation requires the eradication, not reward, regarded as outdated 1930’s throwback legislation, but of recklessness. its purpose was to protect the ordinary depositor from I appreciate that, in the current economic situation, high-risk, if innovative, banking practices. That protection in relation not so much to banks, but to depositors, it is now seems mighty apposite. difficult for us simply to stand aside. However, the How then do we deal with the toxic assets that banks operation of capitalism requires corporate failure. It is still hold and find so difficult to quantify? Curiously not “market failure”, as it has been articulated by many enough, the UK has a pretty good template close at in the governing circles; it is a sign that capitalism is hand. The near collapse of Lloyd’s of London in the working properly and efficiently. The message that banks insurance market, which has developed great strength will not be allowed to fail serves only to make their in recent years, was avoided almost two decades ago by effective regulation all but impossible, because regulation the creation of the Government-backed Equitas fund. creates tremendous barriers to entry and therefore That experience should be the starting point for the advantages larger corporations over smaller start-ups. consideration of any further large-scale Government- The wisest policy option is to create smaller, more backed rescue expenditure. In fairness to the Government, competitive financial institutions, and I fear that they have begun down such a path, but we should be nationalisation, of which we may see more, leads us in fearful of the likely overall cost to the taxpayer. precisely the wrong policy direction. The best form of The nagging sense of insecurity that the spoils of regulation must always be open competition, and public globalisation are being spread inequitably will continue ownership is anathema to that policy goal. to grow among the majority of the UK work force, and Dr. Pugh: How do the Government create smaller it has the makings of serious social unrest. I echo the financial institutions? words of my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield, because the hollowing-out of large swathes of “traditional” Mr. Field: I shall come on to that point in a moment. UK industry, particularly manufacturing, as employment One of the great mistakes that the US made a decade has been exported to low-cost China and India, has not ago was to break down the Glass-Steagall distinction been accompanied by higher, middle-class and middle- between investment and depositor banks. We must protect income professional earnings, at least for those outside depositors’ interests, but the core problem with the the gilded world of financial and associated services. nationalisation of our banks is that bondholders’ interests During the past decade, the mirage of higher living are now also preserved—at the expense of taxpayers, standards was maintained only by the credit-fuelled both present and future. residential property market. The sharp correction of My right hon. Friend for Hitchin and Harpenden that market has exposed the reality that, in recent times, touched on quantitative easing. I suspect that the current international free-trade has done little to enrich, personally, consensus that favours it will find less favour as this at least, the majority of our fellow countrymen. It is year wears on. With little evidence that the velocity of dawning on many middle-income folk that the losers money within the economy is any less sluggish as the from the free movement of labour and capital are not real recession takes hold, printing money in vast quantities simply the unskilled who are forced to compete with increasingly seems like a last throw of the governmental ever large numbers of immigrant workers; it is increasingly dice when relatively little else has succeeded. My right apparent that the generation that is about to join the hon. Friend is quite right that inflation is clearly not an work force will probably be less well off than their imminent problem, but the unprecedented pumping of parents, not least because they will have to foot the bill money into the system is certain to be inflationary as for the economic unravelling that became so apparent time goes on. History suggests that an unsustainable last September. That phenomenon is almost unimaginable mini-boom may well be on the cards by the first half of outside times of war and a shocking indictment for next year, but I fear that stagflation—a toxic mix of today’s generation of politicians. inflation, rapidly rising unemployment and low growth On the political difficulties ahead, there is little doubt or diminished competitiveness—will follow. Indeed, the that, whichever political party wins the next election, commodities and futures markets already factor it in tough and unpalatable decisions will have to be made when pricing for the early years of the next decade. I on public spending. Even if the Government’s own—almost suspect that the Government will not have seen the last certainly wildly optimistic—figures on public spending of their recent problems with trying to sell gilts, either. come to pass, during 2009 they will raise only £3 for In the City, there is a lot of evidence that many banks every £4 that they spend. 425 The Economy (Supporting Business)4 JUNE 2009 The Economy (Supporting Business) 426

I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for either. Despite the difficulty of managing such a profound Hitchin and Harpenden that we must come to terms in recession, I think that we will see the benefits of the double-quick time with the fact that, arguably, entire Government’s approach. areas of central and local government activity should It would be extremely nice to be able to discuss the no longer qualify for public funding. The overall state comments made by the right hon. Member for Hitchin of the public finances suggests the necessity for further and Harpenden (Mr. Lilley) and the hon. Member for scrutiny, even in areas such as education, health and Cities of London and Westminster, but there is no time defence, which in more economically clement times my for that. I will, however, pick up on a couple of points. party pledged to ring-fence. The issue of defence, of First, it is completely wrong to say that the quantitative course, will be discussed in the forthcoming debate. easing is anything like the printing of money in Zimbabwe. Although there has been a marked improvement in The asset purchase facility, coming on top of the asset school and hospital infrastructure in the past decade, protection scheme, has been well designed to deal with much of it has been financed, off balance sheet, by the the toxic assets and get money flowing in the private private finance initiative. It will need to be paid for in sector. It has been absolutely the right approach. the years to come. If the right hon. Member for Hitchin and Harpenden I appreciate that the hon. Member for Northampton, is to lend money to the hon. Member for Cities of North (Ms Keeble), having arrived slightly late, wants London and Westminster, I hope that he will conduct to say a few words, so I shall bring my comments to an an honest assessment of the risks involved with that end. In the past decade or so, we have lived to a character, that he does due diligence and that he gets large extent in the best of economic times; now, however, some proper security, because what caused the banking we have a big price to pay—and a much tougher era crisis were improper risk management, lack of due awaits. diligence and lack of proper security for the assets. The Minister is not going to respond, but I will make three points to him. First, will he please make sure that 1.40 pm there is a report on the results of bank lending to Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): I thank business? Like other colleagues, I think that the situation the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster has not been as we would like and everybody wants (Mr. Field) for cutting short what was obviously a much such a report. Secondly, will he also make sure that his longer speech; we saw him paging through it at the end. Department does real work with the Department for Communities and Local Government so that public I should like to pick up a few points and make a few spending on housing goes to local private contractors remarks to the Government on how to move forward. and so that local councils can manage things properly Despite the need for caution and care, and despite the and support their local industries? Thirdly, will he make caveats and risks involved in what the Government are sure that the Government take into account the impact doing, the Government’s approach to dealing with the of their spending and efficiency reviews on the wider crisis is absolutely right and it has already spared a great economy, so that— many of my constituents a great deal of hardship. Without the Government’s strategy, I am sure that 1.44 pm many more of them would have lost their homes, or One and a half hours having elapsed since the been at risk of that happening, and that many more commencement of proceedings, the motion lapsed (Standing would have found that that they did not have jobs Order No. 24A). 427 4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 428

Defence in the World relationship. As the Prime Minister told the House in December, our future military role will focus on continuing 1.44 pm protection of Iraq’s oil platforms in the northern Gulf, together with training of the Iraqi navy and marines, The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. John Hutton): and officers of the Iraqi armed forces more broadly. We I beg to move, are preparing to lead an officer training initiative as That this House has considered the matter of defence in the part of the NATO training mission in Iraq, but that, of world. course, will be subject to NATO reaching its own agreement I am delighted to open this afternoon’s debate on with the Government of Iraq. defence in the world. Today more than 17,000 of our In the meantime, as our current permissions for armed forces personnel are deployed around the globe, operational and training activities expired on 31 May, protecting our national interests and working with our we have paused in our support to the Iraqi military in international partners in places such as Afghanistan, Iraq, pending ratification of the new agreement. However, Iraq, the south Atlantic, Gibraltar, Nepal, Canada, our programme of training for Iraqi service personnel Belize, Kenya and Cyprus. I know that all Members of on military courses in the UK continues and is expanding. the House will wish to join me once again in paying I very much welcome the Iraqi Council of Ministers’ tribute to the contribution that each and every member endorsement on Tuesday of a draft UK-Iraq training of our armed forces makes to build a safer world on our and maritime support agreement. Once that has been behalf, and in acknowledging the sacrifices that they all signed, which I hope will happen shortly, I will place a make in doing so. They are truly outstanding individuals, copy of it in the Library of the House in parallel with and the whole country can be rightly proud of their its presentation to the Iraqi Council of Representatives. professionalism and dedication to duty. As our relationship with Iraq enters a new phase, the It is right that, sadly, I should begin by offering my main focus of operations will naturally shift to Afghanistan. deepest condolences to the family and friends of Cyrus As the Prime Minister has said, Afghanistan and Pakistan Thatcher, of 2nd Battalion the Rifles, who was killed on are of critical strategic importance to the United Kingdom active service in Afghanistan this week. We mourn his and the international community as a whole. In December loss and extend our deepest sympathy to his family. 2007, we set out a comprehensive approach to tackling In April, I had the honour of attending the ceremony the insurgency in Afghanistan. Building on that, in to mark the successful completion of British combat April this year the Government published our approach missions in Basra. It was, for me and many others, a to Afghanistan and Pakistan. deeply moving occasion. Our armed forces have achieved The 9/11 attacks demonstrated overwhelmingly the a huge amount in the past six years, including a transformed international terrorist threat posed from Afghanistan. security situation in Basra and an increasingly capable We must never forget that that country was allowed to Iraqi police force and army. Furthermore, they have become a base for al-Qaeda to plan terrorist operations helped to create a secure environment in which Iraq’s across the world. new democracy can grow. After years of oppression by Saddam Hussein, southern Iraq now has the opportunity Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): Does my right to fulfil its very considerable economic potential. hon. Friend accept that the country of India, perhaps The task was not achieved without sacrifice. The more than any other, has experienced exactly those House will, I know, also join me today in paying tribute kinds of terrorist attacks from that base in Afghanistan to the 179 British armed forces personnel who lost their and, indeed, in parts of Pakistan? Does he welcome the lives in Iraq. We and the Iraqi people owe them a debt fact that a new and very stable Indian Government have that we can never repay, and that is why we must just been elected, and will he tell us of any prospective honour their memory and care for their families. I am in talks with his counterpart in the Indian Government to no doubt at all that we have left Iraq a better place, and ensure that the bulwark of stability in the region that is that we have made a real difference to the lives of its democratic India can continue to help in what is going citizens. According to General Odierno, the commander on, which is causing so many problems across the of coalition forces in Iraq, what the British armed world? forces have achieved in Basra and elsewhere in Iraq is “nothing short of brilliant”. Mr. Hutton: I certainly do talk to the Indian Defence Operation Telic was not the beginning of our involvement Minister, and I was able to do so particularly in the in Iraq; this week, the Royal Air Force concluded aftermath of the Mumbai terrorist atrocity. India is the almost 19 years of operations in the skies above the most remarkable and vibrant democracy in the world. country. Whether it was strike missions during the wars In my view, democracy is the best defence against in 1991 and 2003 and the protection of the Shi’a of the extremism. However, as we know—our own history south and the Kurds of the north from the malevolence tells us this—democracies need to be defended. The and violence of Saddam’s regime, or the provision of atrocities against the Indian people—the Indian support to ground forces and the playing of a vital democracy—require a robust response from the Pakistan logistics role over the past six years, the Royal Air Force authorities, because there is no doubt whatsoever that has a proud record, in the finest traditions of that those terrorist missions were launched with support service. and logistics from Pakistan. That has to be addressed. The combat mission in Basra was not the beginning There can be no hiding place for those terrorists in of the UK’s role in Iraq, and nor does its conclusion Pakistan. We therefore welcome the steps that the Pakistani mark its end. As part of a broadly-based relationship Government have taken to bring them to justice, but between the UK and Iraq, we are now making the more has to be done for that crime to be addressed. transition to a different, but close, bilateral defence Until that action is taken, tensions will remain unnecessarily 429 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 430 high in the region. There is no doubt at all, in any part from 8,300 to 9,000 until the autumn. However, the of the House, about our respect for the Indian democracy Afghan national security forces will lead on securing and our best wishes for the newly elected Indian the elections; our role is to provide effective support to Government. them. We are working closely with the Afghan national We have certainly learned our lesson from the failure security forces, the Afghan independent electoral in allowing Afghanistan to fall into the clutches of the commission, ISAF and others to prepare for these violent extremists and ideological terrorists. We remain elections. Voter registration, which started in October in Afghanistan to prevent it from again becoming an last year, has now been completed across the whole ungoverned space from which terrorism can be launched country. More than 4 million new names have been against ourselves or our allies. So our mission in Afghanistan added to the existing voter registry. The fact that the is designed first and foremost to protect our own national insurgents have failed to disrupt the process so far is a security. credit to all involved, particularly the Afghan national security forces. The United Kingdom has contributed military forces in Afghanistan since 2001, and since 2006 we have played a key role in the south of the country, in the Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): In the Taliban heartland. In Helmand, our forces perform emphasis that the British and the Americans are placing extraordinary acts of bravery and courage every day as on persuading the Afghan people to accept the Afghan they confront the terrorists and help to protect the local constitution, are we not still in danger of imposing too population from the fear and reality of violence. They much of a western style of government on to a country are training the army and the police to ensure that the to which that is completely alien? Should we not be Afghans themselves can develop a position of strength doing more to work for reconciliation towards more to withstand and ultimately overcome the terrorists traditional forms of Afghan government in order that who threaten their country from within, and to create a we alienate less the tribal institutional structures, particularly stable security environment in which the Afghan in the provinces? Government can build institutions and enable development to take place. Across Helmand province, town by town, Mr. Hutton: The constitution of Afghanistan is a we have seen that happen. District centres have been matter for the Afghan people. The current constitution taken from the insurgents and are now thriving, with has been supported in a number of important elections markets bustling and schools and clinics opening. since it was adopted. There is no conflict between supporting the Afghan constitution and supporting the Crucial to this success has been the development of reconciliation process. I think that we are all in favour the Afghan national army. The international community of seeing greater reconciliation, and there are different must help Afghanistan to build a capable and competent avenues and paths through which that can be conducted. force that can take the lead on security operations. The Essentially, my view is pragmatic, not ideological. It long-term future of Afghanistan depends on its ability cannot be said of the Afghan constitution—the Afghan to manage its own affairs. In the three years that the UK system of government—that it is a thing of perfect has been mentoring the Afghan national army in Helmand, democratic beauty; it would be naive and probably it has developed into one of the most battle-hardened premature to imagine that it ever could be. However, the and competent brigades in Afghanistan, with three of fundamentals of the constitution are decent and enduring. the four infantry kandaks and the brigade headquarters The right of free people to decide their own Government now capable of conducting operations with minimal and to choose the people who govern over them is the support from the international security assistance force— fundamental characteristic of the Afghan constitution, ISAF. and that is worth defending. These achievements are producing tangible results. Only last December, Afghan security forces, supported Mr. Jenkin: The problem is that the Bonn constitution by British, Danish and Estonian troops, successfully was constructed perhaps rather artificially at a time cleared insurgents from the town of Nad-e Ali. Since when a large part of the Taliban community of Afghanistan that operation, the provincial governor, Governor Mangal, was not involved. The whole Karzai Administration who is doing an excellent job, has held the first shura have little support among the Pashtun majority, who there for five years; voter registration has successfully were excluded from that constitutional settlement. Do taken place; and bazaars in urban areas are open for not we need to allow the Afghan people more collectively business again, and thriving. But the most important to reframe a constitution that is more in line with their thing is that since the initial operation, security in own history and tradition? Nad-e Ali has been maintained by the Afghans themselves. Our military successes in Helmand have allowed the Mr. Hutton: The Afghan people have those freedoms. UK, working with the Afghans through our civil military Ultimately, as I said to my hon. Friend the Member for mission in Helmand, to deliver support to the provincial Brent, North (Barry Gardiner) as regards India, those government and help it to deliver basic services and be freedoms are the best defence against the extremism of more accountable to the people. the violent insurgents who seek to replace the democracy Rightly and properly, the Afghan people want and of Afghanistan—imperfect though it might be, as I deserve the right to decide the future of their own would concede—with an altogether different regime country. We are committed to helping them to hold with no respect for human rights, freedom of conscience credible elections that represent the will of the people and freedom of speech. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and demonstrate that the Afghan Government have the and I would join forces in ensuring that that did not authority to rule. Security over the election period will come about. These are ultimately matters for the Afghan be critical. That is why last month my right hon. Friend people, who are now, fortunately, free to address those the Prime Minister announced an increase in troops concerns themselves. 431 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 432

[Mr. Hutton] about the release of Hafiz Sayeed, who was the chief accused of the Mumbai bombings and was in captivity The instability of Pakistan is also of increasing in Pakistan? Does that not betoken a reluctance on the concern—it is very real and obvious. The threat to part of the Pakistan Government to pursue these measures Pakistan posed by militancy and terrorism is very severe. with the vigour that we all wish to see? Last year alone, internal violence killed 2,000 people in Pakistan. We strongly welcome the current action being Mr. Hutton: I have not had any discussion with my taken by the Pakistani Government to address the opposite number in Pakistan about that, because those terrorist problem within their borders, where most violent are primarily matters for my right hon. Friend the extremist organisations in Pakistan, including al-Qaeda, Foreign Secretary to pursue through the normal diplomatic operate. Effective security co-operation on both sides of channels. I am sure that if there were a representative of the Durand line is therefore essential for success. UK the Pakistan Government here today, he or she would and ISAF forces would benefit directly from improved say that the release was a decision of an independent border controls that constrained the flow of insurgents judicial authority, and that it was the actions of the in and out of Afghanistan. Pakistan Government that led to that individual’s initial However, we must remember that Pakistan is rightly detention because of the allegations that he was associated a proud and sovereign nation. It is Pakistan’s responsibility with the crimes committed in Mumbai. Whatever the to act against the threat of extremism and when it does, legal or constitutional position, there is no doubt that a we will continue to offer our assistance. very serious crime took place. Nor is there any doubt in our mind that Lashkar-e-Taiba, acting in Pakistan, was Dr. Liam Fox (Woodspring) (Con): What discussions directly responsible for that crime, and action must be has the Secretary of State had with the Foreign Secretary taken. about the potential for the new Indian Government to Although current operations inevitably shape our help the situation in Pakistan by reducing tensions defence posture today, I wish to concentrate my remaining along the border? remarks on how we can prepare ourselves for the future. We all agree that the world is changing rapidly around Mr. Hutton: I have regular discussions with my right us and that we must be both well prepared for changes hon. Friend about that, and I am happy to brief the and willing and able to adapt to them. The UK has an hon. Gentleman about our current thinking. There are active international role and presence, and we must take opportunities for tensions to be eased, but the essential into account the global trends that will shape our condition for that will be action against the Lashkar-e-Taiba future. Two trends stand out to me. militants in Pakistan who have still not been brought to First, ours is now clearly a more connected world. justice. I am afraid to say that at the moment, there is Increased globalisation means increased interdependency, little evidence that they will be any time soon. That and we must be open to that. Our linkages to the world would be a significant step for Pakistan to take, and we are essential to the UK’s prosperity and success, and would strongly support and encourage it to do so. this is no time for protectionism. But global freedoms We should maintain our constructive dialogue with and connections clearly create vulnerabilities—take, for Pakistan’s military and help them to combat the insurgency example, the global economic crisis, the shared problems more effectively. We are also supporting financially the of insurgency, terrorism, violent extremism and the efforts of the Pakistan Government to improve the drug trade in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and the emerging education of its population in the federally administered threats of piracy and cyber attack. tribal areas, which is fundamental to removing the Secondly, it is pretty clear now that we are seeing a insurgents’ ability to exploit local people for unbelievably shift in the balance of power globally. More states have horrific ends such as suicide bombings. a voice, through greater economic power or strategic importance. Decision making in the world will therefore Mr. James Arbuthnot (North-East Hampshire) (Con): be more complex and we will need more innovative I am very pleased to hear what the Secretary of State is approaches if we are to achieve peace and prosperity. saying about helping education in Pakistan. One thing We talk more today of the G20 than we do of the G7 or that I have bemoaned in this country is that we spend G8. China, Brazil and India all have increasing global only something like 2 per cent. of our gross domestic influence to match their rapidly expanding economies. product on defence, but in Pakistan they spend only 2 per cent. of theirs on education. The Pakistanis need So what are the new security challenges that we face to consider that carefully, because it is extremely important. in this age of risk and uncertainty? We certainly face a new form of terrorist threat that is transnational and Mr. Hutton: I strongly agree with the right hon. employs extreme and indiscriminate violence. Terrorists Gentleman. It is ultimately for the Pakistan Government who claim to act in the name of Islam seek to pose an to address their internal priorities and how they wish to enduring threat to our national security interests. Tackling spend their resources, but there is undoubtedly a strong terrorist and other non-state threats is set to be the most view that education needs to be addressed now. If it is likely use of our armed forces for the foreseeable future. not addressed in a co-ordinated and serious way, that That requires not simply a counter-insurgency response will simply allow extremist organisations to take over but a multi-faceted and multi-agency approach, with responsibility for educating young Pakistani boys and new capabilities that can help us in the work not just of girls. I am afraid that that will lead to only one consequence. security but of reconstruction and good governance. North Korea’s recent nuclear test is another reminder Barry Gardiner: My right hon. Friend is being most that proliferation has major security impacts. Belligerence indulgent in giving way to Members of all parties. Has coupled with weapons of mass destruction capabilities he had any discussions with the Pakistani Government has regional and global significance. In addition to 433 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 434 states, the continuing risk that terrorists, criminals, or nations” will be crucial, not only for the legitimacy of other non-state actors will get WMD technology is many operations but in playing a practical role in their incredibly serious when we live in an era of mass planning and conduct. casualty attacks and suicide bombing. As an example of both taking preventive action and The risks of weak or failing states are also clear. working with host nations, the Ministry of Defence has Economic and political weaknesses exacerbate factionalism a programme of capacity building that extends to 14 and often provoke conflict. Supporting sound leadership states, including Pakistan. The security forces we train in vulnerable countries and international approaches to are successful in disrupting terrorist plots, so the benefits reversing downward spirals of decay will be crucial. As can be immediate as well as an investment in longer-term the UK is an internationally engaged power, its domestic security and international relationships. security interests depend on effective and efficient international organisations. If organisations such as the An important trend, which complicates conflict, is United Nations, the international financial institutions that non-state adversaries using irregular tactics will be and the World Trade Organisation are to remain effective, increasingly important in international conflicts—not they must respond rapidly to global changes. The same just terrorists but insurgents, criminals, pirates and even goes for the organisations that protect and serve the disgruntled individuals conducting cyber attacks from people of Europe—NATO and the European Union. their laptops. One practical example of how we are agile They must all adapt the way in which they work and the enough to counter those threats is the UK’s leading role speed of their responses. Because legitimacy is crucial in EU anti-piracy operations in the Indian ocean. Hon. to effectiveness, they must also change to give the rising Members will have seen the evidence in today’s newspapers powers a proper voice and influence. of successful Royal Navy action against suspected pirates. The protection of the world’s shipping lines is vital for Given those enduring and emerging security challenges, the economy of the world as a whole—and to us, as an it is right that there should be debate now on the island nation, more than many. We will continue to play changing characteristics of conflict and how our forces our part in securing the smooth passage of global should evolve. Of one thing we can be certain: predicting trade—something that the Royal Navy has always done future conflict remains notoriously difficult. Our experiences marvellously. defy a single pattern. Yes, there may be a broad consensus that the threat of direct state-led military attacks against Non-state actors often share motivations and aspirations Britain is extremely low and will remain low for the and co-operate and combine to pose new threats. They foreseeable future, and we all celebrate and welcome are likely to change form to defy our efforts to tackle that fact. However, states still pose threats to wider them. The role of intelligence will therefore remain security in some cases, for example by acting through crucial to identifying those variations. non-state proxies. Miscalculations by states in dispute with each other could also lead to conflict, and we could find that we are drawn in if our vital national Mr. Jenkin: Yesterday, a Ministry of Defence spokesman interests are at stake. We ignore those risks at our peril. confirmed that a British frigate had intervened on pirates off the gulf of Aden who had rocket-propelled grenades There is broad agreement on some issues. First, it is in their boats and clearly intended to commit crimes on agreed that for the immediate future terrorists will pose the high seas, but said that because they were not the most frequent and direct threat to the UK and our caught in the act, although the Royal Navy could destroy interests, and that they will do so in ways that will the weaponry, it had to let them go. Clearly, there is a continue to plumb the depths of depravity, using women deficiency in international law or its interpretation, or and children as suicide bombers. Secondly, it is agreed there is something wrong with our rules of engagement. that there will be a continuing demand for our forces to It cannot be right that pirates, who were caught virtually counter terrorism directly, and we must look beyond red-handed, are let go. Afghanistan and apply the lessons that we learn from operations there. Mr. Hutton: I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. Thirdly, it is agreed that there will be a continuing Gentleman’s point. However, I do not believe that there demand for peace support operations from peace is any deficiency in the rules of engagement—we are enforcement to low-level stabilisation, either following able to defend not only ourselves but the ships that we state collapse or to freeze or end inter-state conflicts. are there to protect, and if necessary, to use lethal force Some of those missions could involve the use of coercive to do that. The decision was rightly made by the commander force. Fourthly, it is agreed that increasing complexity is on the ground, operating within the rules that he had likely to be a feature of the future use of our armed been set. We have an agreement with the Kenyan forces. They are likely to find themselves operating Government for transferring pirates whom we detain together with a range of other agencies, building on on the high seas to the criminal authorities in Kenya. today’s concept of a comprehensive approach. Finally, That agreement works well and several pirates have it is agreed that there should be an increasing premium been moved into the Kenyan criminal system, but we on preventive activities across Government, working continue to consider ways to improve—[Interruption.] with allies, partners and non-governmental organisations. As I said, the decision was made by the commander on The work that we are already doing with the African the ground, operating within the rules as he saw them. I Union is a prime example, and we should remain leaders am here to support him—I am not trying to do anything in that field. other than that. However, I am trying to explain that we In all that, we should be mindful that the character of reached an international agreement with Kenya, which conflict evolves incrementally. Emerging nations will applies to the EU piracy mission. I do not have the have more of an impact on what we try to do and “host precise figures, but I will give them to the hon. Gentleman, 435 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 436

[Mr. Hutton] Adaptability and flexibility will be key attributes of force planning. We need to balance our investment in perhaps later in the debate. Many pirates have been people, equipment and technology to ensure that we detained in those operations and transferred to the have forces that are agile and adaptable to the realities Kenyan criminal authorities. of modern conflict, provide battle-winning capabilities and support our units on the front line. I discussed that Mr. Jenkin: I do not think that the Secretary of State and other similar challenges with US Defence Secretary is addressing the point. Why in that particular case did Gates in March when I was in Washington, and I look the rules of engagement require pirates to be released, forward later this year to sharing our analysis of the not taken to Kenya, according to the agreement? What lessons learned from recent conflicts, including Afghanistan, is the legal situation that prevents the captain of a and what they tell us about the characteristics of future British warship from detaining those people and handing conflict, as well as what they mean for our bilateral them over to the Kenyan Government? defence co-operation in the years ahead. In response to the new threats, I believe that there are Mr. Hutton: The hon. Gentleman suggests that the five obvious and immediate priorities for us. The nature rules of engagement are the problem. It is nothing to do of many new threats is such that our response to them with them. The commander of the frigate made the will rarely—even primarily—be military. However, when decision about whether the evidence would support force is required, NATO will remain the cornerstone of detention and therefore transfer of the detainees to our security architecture and we must and will ensure Kenya. His judgment was that the evidence was not that we can operate with our major allies and partners. sufficient to bring the case within the framework of the Secondly, we must operate across a spectrum from agreement. I am not in a position to second-guess the major combat operations through counter-insurgency commander—that is not my job, and I will not be an and deal with complex challenges. In our 2008 defence armchair general, thank you very much. I am here to strategic guidance, we created a new military task, called support the commander’s decision, which is perfectly military assistance to stabilisation and development— reasonable within the rules in which he was operating. MASD—to ensure that we develop the capability to However, if there are ways in which we can improve counter irregular activity and support stabilisation and such operations, we will try to do that. reconstruction efforts. It is important for the House to note that the new task now formally recognises that UK Mr. Arbuthnot: To what extent does the Secretary of armed forces should plan and conduct operations to State believe that commanders on the ground or at sea help stabilise and reconstruct in those locations where are constrained by their realisation that the piracy problem the security situation is too difficult to allow civilian off the coast of Somalia is more of a land than a agencies to work alone. maritime problem? Until we address the causes of piracy In practice, that means that we are and will continue in Somalia and the economic collapse of that country, to be involved in a variety of activities, including protecting we cannot deal with the symptoms in the seas off its civilian staff, training local security forces or working coast. on engineering projects. It means that UK forces must have the capability to carry out limited reconstruction Mr. Hutton: Again, I have a lot of sympathy with the of, for example, local infrastructure. However, perhaps right hon. Gentleman. The piracy mission is clearly more often, their main military role will be to build a dealing with—in his analysis—the symptoms of the secure environment in which NGOs and others can problem. We have to protect the shipping lanes around operate effectively. Our work in Afghanistan to date that important artery, so have no choice but to engage demonstrates that that approach can be effective. the pirates directly. Obviously, it would be better if Thirdly, we clearly have to prioritise within the resources solutions could be found to Somalia’s internal problems. available. That means managing risk—tackling immediate Some work on that is under way, although it needs to priorities and most likely future threats—and doing so gather momentum. The position in Somalia is fiendishly using structures that are agile and capabilities that are complicated, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, but flexible to allow our forces to be able to “stretch, surge my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary, other EU and recover”. countries, the United Nations, the United States and others are trying to find ways of addressing the root In my view, our fourth and fifth priorities are international cause of the problem, which is a classic illustration of institutional reform and future capability. International what happens in the case of a failed state. There is risk institutions have a vital role to play in defence and of terrorist activity in the south of Somalia and piracy security as in all other aspects of international policy. across the country. There are pockets of good governance, The essentials are sound, but we need the right military which give us a glimmer of hope, but a hell of a lot of capabilities to meet the military threats that we face, work still needs to be done to try to get Somalia into a whether they are from fundamentalist terrorists in better position. Afghanistan or at the periphery of NATO’s homeland If I am right in my general observations, the question area. for all of us is how we can best respond to the challenges. When I met my ministerial colleagues in Krakow Clearly, we must first deal with the threats that we earlier this year, I therefore suggested that NATO needed currently face; that is why Afghanistan is the priority a rapidly deployable force that could signal our commitment for us and, I suspect, will be for some years ahead. The to the defence of alliance territory—we called it the importance that we already attach to its many and alliance solidarity force—because no potential aggressor interconnected security challenges shows that it is possible must ever be allowed to think that he has a window of to achieve success. opportunity before NATO can effectively respond. I am 437 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 438 glad to say that that has stimulated thinking in NATO, through unmanned aerial vehicles, should be integrated and I look forward to receiving a report back at our in our forces and not just seen as an additional luxury. ministerial meeting in Brussels next week. We will also need to develop capabilities that protect our information networks from increasingly sophisticated Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): The Secretary of attacks. Such non-kinetic attacks on our vital infrastructure State is moving on from the issue of resources, but I from cyberspace are clearly attractive to our adversaries, should like briefly to bring him back to it. He has talked and we have got to counter them. How we decide on the about the need to train local military forces to enable appropriate capabilities and how we acquire them on NGOs to operate in a much more benign environment time and on budget will be vital to the success of our when stabilising countries. However, does he think that armed forces in defeating the threats that we now face the application of British resources between the Department and might face in future. for International Development, the Foreign Office and Today we do not just have to plan for contingent his Department is correctly structured to enable us to threats against a sophisticated state adversary, where achieve the overall outcome that we want across the the practical implications of our planning assumptions whole of Government? With so many resources now in are tested in large part by their deterrence effect. As the DFID and with the problems that it has in applying past decade has instead proved, today our armed forces them to military training, my observation would be that are engaged in less conventional, counter-insurgency there is now an issue that we need to address. Does the and peace enforcement operations in defence of our Secretary of State share that conclusion? national security, so now our planning assumptions are tested in the heat of battle, with no room for delay or Mr. Hutton: I share some thinking in common with failure. Every one of our servicemen and women has the hon. Gentleman. The conflict prevention pool is a the right to know that we are doing everything possible useful innovation, and it is proving to be a useful source to ensure that every pound of investment in our equipment of resources, helping us to do some of the work in programme goes towards the front line and is not Afghanistan, for example. Have we got every nook and wasted in inefficient or weak processes of acquisition. cranny of the policy right? Probably not. There is also That is why I asked Bernard Gray in December last the question of how much we are prepared to invest in year to conduct a detailed examination of progress in such initiatives, which is a wider matter on which my implementing the MOD’s acquisition change programme, right hon. Friend the Chancellor expresses his views as I hope right hon. and hon. Members will recall. I from time to time. However, I think that we have the have to be satisfied that the current programme of beginnings of a much better approach. It needs to change is sufficient to meet the challenges of the new develop and—let us be honest—it could probably do combat environment that we now face. To date, I am with more resources as well. However, there will be an not. I expect to receive the report shortly. Bernard Gray opportunity to look at such issues in future spending has conducted a thorough and wide-ranging analysis. I rounds, and I very much hope that it is taken. By the am confident that when his report is published, it will be way, I should also inform the hon. Gentleman that I both honest about the scale of the task that confronts have not finished talking about resources—I am coming us and clear in describing a detailed and radical blueprint back to that subject. to reform the process of acquisition in the MOD from We will always, rightly, look to NATO for collective top to bottom. That is something that we must get defence, but I believe strongly that the European Union right. There can be no room for complacency, and given can play its part too, using armed forces alongside its the current tempo of operations, we have no choice but civilian capabilities. That is not about duplicating what to act with urgency. I will publish Bernard Gray’s report NATO can do. Indeed, the real problem is that European before the summer recess, and I will come to the House countries have too few defence capabilities, not too again to outline the Government’s response to it. many. I want to see Europeans developing more capability Given the size of the challenge that we face, I am in that they can put at the service of NATO or the European no doubt whatever that change must happen and that it Union. I want to see Europeans taking more responsibility must be radical. There must be changes to the system for solving the world’s problems, whether through NATO and structure of acquisition process, changes to the or the European Union. I also want the European incentives that drive and determine behaviours—behaviours Union to show what it can do when it focuses on that have often lead to waste, delay and efficiency, outcomes rather than institutions, as it has done in bedevilling the efforts of both Labour and Conservative countering piracy in the gulf of Aden and off the coast Governments over a long period—and changes to the of Somalia, for example. skills sets of those involved in acquisition. I am committed In sum, we need organisations that can respond, to doing everything that I can to make it possible for recognise the nature of a risk when it appears, think our armed forces to be better served, and I will make rapidly and imaginatively across boundaries, flex resources future announcements in due course. to where they are needed and work in partnership to Most members of today’s armed forces joined after implement solutions. I hope that we can leave behind 9/11, in the new security environment that it created. the old yah-boo anti-Europeanism that has bedevilled That is the context in which they have always experienced debates on the subject in the past, because it does not operations. Their language is that of counter-insurgency advance our national security interests. Instead, it hinders and their primary enemy is the terrorist in civilian them. clothing, indistinguishable from the civilians he mingles As for our capability, I would mention just two with—the terrorist who threatens not just our people, emerging priorities. We will need to build and maintain but our friends and allies across the world. Our edge in an advantage over our adversaries in information and defeating that threat is acquired in the training that our decision making. Advanced forms of collection, including people receive and the equipment that they use, which is 439 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 440

[Mr. Hutton] north west frontier and the federally administered tribal areas. North Korea has tested its second nuclear bomb, second to none, backed up by satellite bandwidth or a is preparing another long-range missile test, and has UAVcontrolled from thousands of miles away. We must torn up the armistice that brought an end to the 1950-1953 ensure that our policies, systems and capabilities reflect Korean war. today’s realities, so that those who serve today are given The British armed forces are participating in about the best support possible. However, we will fail those 50 NATO, EU, United Nations and OSCE operations who will serve us in years to come if we fail to plan now around the globe, and we have a military presence in the for tomorrow’s emerging threats. I will not allow that to form of 41,000 British troops in 32 countries and overseas happen. territories. It is against that backdrop that the Government have decided to hold a debate on this subject today, 2.27 pm meaning that, for obvious reasons, it will be poorly Dr. Liam Fox (Woodspring) (Con): May I add my attended in the House and go largely unreported in the tribute on behalf of all my Conservative colleagues to press. The real tragedy is that we need more, not less, the military personnel and civilians from this country understanding among the British public of the threats who have been killed or injured, including Cyrus Thatcher? to our wider national security. They have sacrificed themselves for our safety. There is When we think about Operation Telic and the presence not a man, woman or child in this country who does not of British forces in Iraq, we mainly think about the owe them a huge debt of gratitude. Our thoughts and contribution of our ground forces—and let us make no prayers are with the families and friends of all those mistake: the men and women serving in our Army and who have made that sacrifice on our behalf. the Royal Air Force have contributed bravely and professionally to make Iraq a better place. I associate Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): Will my hon. Friend myself with all the Secretary of State’s comments about give way? the huge and historic role that they have played in contributing to the future well-being of that country. Dr. Fox: No, I will not. It says everything about the priorities of the current Recently, however, the focus has been placed increasingly Government and their business managers that the annual on the Royal Navy and the outstanding work that it has debate on defence in the world is squeezed by a topical been doing in training the Iraqi navy and protecting debate, on a day when they knew that most MPs would Iraqi oil platforms. I say “has been doing” because, as be away from the House. I can just hear the Government has been reported this week and confirmed by the business managers asking, “What subject is so unimportant Government, the British and Iraqi Governments have that we can stick it in the Commons on polling day for failed to finalise a deal to enable the remaining British the European and local elections?” and the answer forces in Iraq to continue to train their Iraqi counterparts coming back, “Why not defence in the world? It’s only after last Sunday. Consequently, there are about 700 UK about Iraq, Afghanistan and the rest—nothing terribly soldiers and sailors without a legal mandate in Iraq who important.” It leaves most of us on the Conservative are unable to carry out their training mission with the Benches virtually speechless that a debate of such Iraqi navy. importance to our national interest, the well-being of Furthermore, it is rumoured—I would welcome our armed forces and the morale of their families Government confirmation of this—that at least two should have its annual slot reduced to less than four British warships have been removed from the combined hours. taskforce 158, which provides security for Iraqi oil In the year since we last held this debate the world platforms and ports in the northern Persian gulf, the has become a more, not less, dangerous place. Nine economic lifeblood of Iraq that they have been asked to thousand British troops in Afghanistan are engaged in protect. This has forced an additional unexpected and some of the heaviest fighting since the Korean war. As burden on to our allies in the region, who are having to our ground troops come home from Iraq, the mission of fill the gap. This applies most notably to the Americans, the Royal Navy is now in question because the Government who claim not to have the resources available to meet have failed to secure a legal mandate with Baghdad. this requirement. Our Navy has an extremely important Russia is rearming, and still occupying Abkhazia and role in the Gulf, and it is extremely well respected in the South Ossetia—with illegitimate elections recently having region by our allies. I would say to all those who talk been held in the latter—and it has threatened to militarise about a lack of respect in the relationship between the the Arctic region, to the great concern of our close allies United States and the United Kingdom that they ought in NATO, especially Norway and Canada. to go and talk to those serving in the American fifth Piracy is running rife, not only off the horn of Africa fleet. They would find out just how highly those people but in less mentioned places such as the gulf of Guinea regard the Royal Navy and how important its contribution and the strait of Molucca. NATO is struggling to find is in that part of the world. its way in the 21st century, and the EU is aiming to It is unacceptable to have up to 700 British service increase its defence integration. Iran, in an unprecedented personnel without a legal mandate in Iraq, especially move, recently deployed six warships to the gulf of when that has a negative impact on our relationship Aden, is on the verge of acquiring a nuclear weapon, with the US. The Government should have sorted this and in eight days’ time will hold presidential elections issue out during President Maliki’s recent visit to London that will have a huge impact on future policy. in April. At that time, they were upbeat about what The Taliban were recently operating within 60 miles might happen, and the Secretary of State has been of Islamabad, and as I speak, Pakistani security forces relatively upbeat today, but we should not really have are heavily engaged in offensive operations across the reached this point, should we? 441 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 442

Mr. Hutton: No, we should not have reached this be further from the truth. Unlike the Taliban, our point. Unfortunately we have, but I can assure the hon. troops do everything possible to minimise the threats to Gentleman and the House that that is not for the want civilians. It is a point that our own media should focus of trying by Her Majesty’s Government. I want to make on a lot more, because in this political environment we it quite clear, however, that the position that he described must not allow negative stereotypes to be created by with regard to the lack of a legal mandate is not default, which is a risk we are running. As the incoming accurate. The legal mandate for the UK forces’ presence American commander, Lieutenant-General McChrystal, in Iraq expires on 31 July. It is true that our mandate to said during his Senate confirmation hearing this week, conduct operational and training activities expired on “The measure of effectiveness will not be enemy killed, it will 31 May, but it is not the case that the remaining UK be the number of Afghans shielded from violence.” forces in Afghanistan lack jurisdiction or effective protection under the agreements that we have with the Iraqi That is the difference between us in this conflict. Government. On my last trip to Helmand in March, I was pleased to find a renewed shift of emphasis from the central Dr. Fox: I am grateful for that clarification—although Government in Kabul to more focus on provincial and I am sure that the Secretary of State meant to say district governments across all of Afghanistan. The “Iraq”, not “Afghanistan”. That is reassuring, but it problem of governance in the country, including widespread does not get away from the fact that we have failed to corruption, must be tackled because it is undermining reach agreement on a matter that is of great importance our efforts to achieve stability. Focus needs to be placed not only to our armed forces but to our allies. on empowering local and district governments. Local What about the so-called British legacy in Iraq that solutions for local problems has been the only way in we have heard so much about? The last time we heard most of Afghanistan for thousands of years, as my hon. about this matter from the Government in the House, Friend the Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) said we were told that there were only four locally hired in an earlier intervention. To believe that we can have contractors representing British trade interests in Iraq, working democratic central Government without first all of whom were apparently based in Baghdad, leaving having working local government is naïve, especially Iraq’s second city, Basra, and the northern city of Irbil when in many cases we are dealing with tribal codes completely neglected. As I have said in the House that pre-date even Islam. before, and as echoed by many of my right hon. and I think most would agree with the Government that hon. Friends, our lack of trade presence means that we everything must be done to build the capability of may have shed blood for Iraq, but stand little chance as Afghan security forces. The Afghan national army has a country of benefiting from the contracts flowing from come a very long way and is probably the most respected Iraq’s fiscal surplus. There is a lot of potential for Iraq governmental institution in the country, although it still to become a regional financial and trading hub, and we has some way to go. The Afghan national police, on the must do all we can to ensure that that becomes a reality. other hand, are viewed by the majority of Afghan A stable and prosperous Iraq, as the Secretary of State citizens as incompetent and corrupt, and will continue says, is in all our interests, but a strong UK role in to present the biggest challenge to the west, particularly supporting this is also in both our interests. in terms of capacity building, for some time to come. I now turn to Afghanistan. As we head into the summer months, and leading up to the presidential While we are on the subject of Afghan security election, our forces are confronting a resurgent Taliban forces, will the Secretary of State take today’s opportunity across most of the country. Compared with this time to expand on the comments of his right hon. Friend the last year, there has been a 55 per cent. increase in Prime Minister, who said on 29 April that coalition deaths. IED—improvised explosive device—events “as the US moves in, we will over time shift the balance of our are up by 80 per cent. and there has been a 90 per cent. operations away from front-line combat and towards an enhanced increase in attacks on the Afghan Government. Since contribution to training both the army in Afghanistan and its January there have been more than twice the number of police.”—[Official Report, 29 April 2009; Vol. 491, c. 870.]? insurgent-initiated attacks in Helmand than in Kandahar, Will the Government provide us today with some idea the province with the next highest number attacks. of a timeline? Will the number of British troops stay the It has been said by many that the No. 1 objective of same as this shift of operations occurs? I am sure that any counter-insurgency campaign is to protect the local the whole House would be interested to know what population. This was accomplished against all the odds mission UK forces in Helmand province will have after in Iraq, thanks to the clear views of General Petraeus, the 10,000 US marines are deployed there. How will we and one aspect of the Iraq surge can be, and needs to avoid ending up with what ultimately might be called be, replicated in Afghanistan. I understand, of course, “Charge of the Knights syndrome”, with a small force, that there are no direct parallels, but there are undoubtedly dwarfed by the Americans territorially and numerically, lessons to learn from the other experience. that is less and less in control of events? One lesson that needs to come across to the British The problems of Afghanistan and Pakistan are public is that 80 per cent. of the civilian deaths in increasingly recognised as being inseparable. We cannot Afghanistan are caused by the Taliban, not by coalition achieve stability and security in Afghanistan until we forces. While that does not excuse civilian deaths, and disrupt the Taliban/al-Qaeda network attacking from demonstrates that we are still unable to protect the local Pakistan. Just across the border from our forces, Pakistan population in the way that we would like, there is a story faces an existential threat from Islamist extremism. here that needs to be told. There is a misrepresentation Unfortunately for Pakistan and the west, it is a threat in some foreign media that our forces are systematically that Pakistan is ill-equipped to fight. The Pakistani targeting and killing Afghan civilians, which could not armed forces are trained, resourced and manned for 443 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 444

[Dr. Fox] and the second the willingness of Iran to destabilise its neighbours via Hezbollah and Hamas. We have seen state-on-state warfare against a perceived threat from their involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Lebanon India. I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments on and Israel. Do we want fissile material added to that that subject. mix? About 65 per cent. of the Pakistani military is Punjabi, Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, if Iran gets a yet the area along the border where the military is nuclear weapon, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are all operating is predominantly Pashtun. To all intents and likely to want to follow suit. Our failure to deal with purposes, members of the Pakistani military are regarded Iran’s nuclear ambitions will inevitably lead to the potential as foreigners in the federally administered tribal areas for a nuclear arms race, with all the costs, dangers and and their presence can at times exacerbate the situation. futility that that would bring. Surely we want to leave Although we must train and equip the Pakistani military something better to the next generation than a nuclear for counter-insurgency operations, we must do all we arms race in the world’s most unstable region. can to build Pakistani capability in the round, especially I first raised the issue of Arctic security in last year’s in policing and the Frontier Corps in FATA. debate on defence in the world, and I remember hearing Lastly, will the Secretary of State update the House laughter from Labour Members, including some who on how many of the 5,000 NATO troops promised at now speak on defence matters from the Front Bench. Strasbourg have arrived in Afghanistan? They were Since then the topic of Arctic security has become well promised ahead of the presidential elections in August, reported in the press and has been the subject of countless which are only a couple of months away. There has been articles in military journals. Two of our close NATO little mention of the status of those troops, or of how allies have explicitly said that the Arctic region remains many of those promised have arrived on the ground. their greatest security challenge. According to the Failure in Afghanistan cannot be an option, for two Canadians, Arctic security is listed as No. 1 of Canada’s reasons. First, it could mean the effective end of the six core military missions. The security of what the NATO alliance. What would happen to our credibility Norwegians call their high north is the top policy and to the cohesion of NATO if we were seen to have concern for our allies in Norway, too. failed our first major test since the end of the cold war? We will all face many challenges in the Arctic as the Secondly, and perhaps even more importantly, a defeat ice melts and the scramble for resources heats up. With of western forces in Afghanistan would act as a shot in ice melting there, and increased piracy in shipping lanes the arm for all Islamic fundamentalists worldwide. To in warmer climates, the shorter shipping routes in the every jihadist, it would be a sign of weakness in our high north will become more appealing. Already more resolve. Neither outcome can be acceptable to us. than 11 million tonnes of oil per year pass through the Barents sea alone. As a leader in NATO, and because At the weekend I visited Hong Kong and Singapore, 95 per cent. of British international trade in goods where one very different security topic dominated the travels by sea, we are forced to take an active interest in media. North Korea’s detonation on 25 May of its Arctic security matters. second nuclear bomb was a clear breach of UN Security Council resolution 1718. Here in London, there is a Many agree that NATO, as Europe’s No. 1 guarantor tendency to sit back and watch events unfold in North of security, has an important role in the Arctic, and of Korea as if there was no impact on the national interests course we must agree, as four of the five Arctic powers of the United Kingdom and in the hope that others, are members of NATO. Another reason why NATO such as the US and China, will take care of matters. must take the Arctic seriously is that Russia takes it However, the truth is that, like it or not, we are affected seriously. It is a not very widely commented on fact that by events in North Korea. back in March this year Moscow released a strategy paper outlining Russia’s plans to create a new military Last week at the International Institute for Strategic force to protect its interests in the disputed Arctic. The Studies Shangri-La Asian security conference, US Defence paper said that the Arctic must become Russia’s “top Secretary Robert Gates said: strategic resource base” by 2020. “North Korea’s nuclear programme and actions constitute a Russian military involvement in the Arctic, including threat to regional peace and security.” ground, air and maritime capabilities, is already quite All in the House could endorse that statement. The prevalent. It has been reported that Russia has two fully transfer of nuclear weapons or material to other nations equipped brigades, considered by some to be the best or non-state actors should be viewed as a threat to the equipped brigades in the Russian army, stationed along security of this country, our allies and our wider global the 120-mile border with Norway. Russian air patrols interests. North Korea is notoriously unpredictable, have increased in recent years and are now at peak cold and at the moment its motives and the likely next steps war levels. When Russian bombers fly down the Norwegian are extremely unclear. The North Korean regime has coast and reach the city of Bodø, where Norwegian sold missile technology to Iran, Iraq, Pakistan and F-16s are based for NATO air patrols, they can be Syria. Consequently, it is not irrational to believe that tracked practising bombing runs out at sea before continuing future sales by North Korea might include nuclear with their patrols. technology and know-how. Russia’s northern fleet is considered the largest and That nuclear threat is being mirrored in the middle most powerful of Russia’s four naval fleets. About two east by Iran, in another clear breach of international thirds of all the Russian navy’s nuclear force is based law. I have heard voices on both sides of the House say within the northern fleet. It also has Russia’s only that we should learn to accommodate Iran as a nuclear operating aircraft carrier. To add to the capabilities of weapons state. I believe that there are three reasons why the northern fleet, there are plans to increase the we must not. The first is the nature of the regime itself, number of nuclear-powered ice breakers, including the 445 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 446 world’s largest, at a time when our only ice breaker, Piracy is just one piece of a very complicated maritime HMS Endurance, is being towed back to the United security jigsaw, which includes counter-terrorism, keeping Kingdom with an uncertain future. shipping lanes and oil platforms secured in the Gulf, To put matters in perspective, although a direct military and deterring the Iranian navy. Piracy will never be confrontation between western forces and Russia in the completely eradicated from the seas, as history tends to Arctic is highly unlikely, there is certainly scope for suggest, but we must do all we can to minimise the misunderstanding, which could escalate tensions, and threat. that is what we must try to avoid. We need to find ways Other, newer threats to our security are emerging, in of minimising friction and improving dialogue. Perhaps cyberspace and space in particular. The recent speech NATO could be used as a way to increase awareness by Secretary Gates was particularly interesting in its and co-operation with Russia in the Arctic region— reorientation of American policy on those threats. We especially in areas of mutual concern such as search need to debate these issues in the House in detail, and I and rescue. Unlike in the rest of Russia, in the Barents hope that a specific time will be found for us to do so, region of Russia the view of NATO is very positive, but today the list that I have given—mirroring what was with up to 70 per cent. of those polled supporting said by the Secretary of State—will suffice. International NATO having a role in the Arctic. The outlook is not terrorism, fundamentalist extremism, rogue states, piracy entirely bleak, but both sides will have to show a willingness and nuclear proliferation are enough for us to be getting to co-operate. on with. Since our last debate, one of the trends has been the We must constantly pay tribute to the bravery of our growing awareness of maritime threats. Somali pirates armed forces and their families, our intelligence services, are currently causing chaos off the coast of Africa in and the numerous civilian organisations that support the gulf of Aden—one of the world’s busiest shipping them and us with the security that we too often take for routes. We need to realise that the long-term problems granted. Let me issue a plea to the Government: perhaps associated with piracy need to be dealt with on land and next time our debate on their contribution will not be not at sea, as my right hon. Friend the Member for timetabled for the parliamentary relegation zone, but North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot) has said. The will be given the time appropriate to their importance present conditions in Somalia promote piracy, lawlessness, and their sacrifice. instability, unchecked crime and poverty.The international community needs to do a better job of co-ordinating 2.52 pm the military response to piracy in the gulf of Aden. Rules of engagement and better command and control Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I listened need to be established as well as the operational situation with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member for will allow. Woodspring (Dr. Fox), but I cannot agree with his statement about the inappropriateness of today for the Currently off the horn of Africa are two combined debate. I think it highly appropriate that we are here in maritime forces headquartered in Bahrain, CTF 150 the House on the day of the European elections, discussing and CTF 151, the European-led Operation Atalanta, defence in the world, because it is thanks to the assets from the standing NATO maritime group 1, and European Union—its emphasis on consensus, co-operation, individual ships from India, Russia, Malaysia, China discussion, debate and working together while and Iran. All are conducting anti-piracy operations, simultaneously cherishing the unique and independent security escorts and counter-terrorism operations in the nature of member states—that we, citizens of Europe, region, and each operates under a different set of rules have experienced the longest period of peace in our of engagement. To make matters more complicated, history. there are no formal command relationship agreements to co-ordinate their missions. Dr. Fox: The hon. Lady speaks of the appropriateness Having multiple maritime security operations all aiming of the timing of the debate. Just for the Hansard record, to accomplish the same missions and all operating in would she care to tell us how many Labour Back the same area without formal co-operation is duplicative Benchers are currently present? and dangerous, and could lead to failure. Also, attention to counter-terrorism operations in the region cannot be Mrs. Moon: The hon. Gentleman clearly has poor jeopardised by the current concern about piracy. Bad as eyesight if he needs my help in ascertaining that. the situation seems to us now, it could easily become much worse. Most piracy off the horn of Africa is Dr. Fox: One! criminally motivated: it is a quick way to make money. However, there is the larger threat of an organised Mrs. Moon: The hon. Gentleman shouts “one” from global terrorist network, such as al-Qaeda, becoming a sedentary position—but, on the other hand, it is me. directly involved with the piracy. As things stand, most piracy is driven by criminal factions that benefit from Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con): It is I! the lawless nature of a failed state. Just imagine what the outcome would be of a piracy campaign sponsored, Mrs. Moon: I do apologise; I am a product of a planned, and executed by al-Qaeda. comprehensive education. On 19 May the European Union decided to extend It is said that freedom is never free, but that it comes the area of operations of its anti-piracy mission by at a price—a price exemplified by what we are willing to almost a third. Can Ministers tell us whether there are pay to defend our freedom. Why am I here today, rather plans to provide more resources for the mission, or than knocking on doors and getting out the vote? I am whether the EU will simply ask its member states to do here because I recognise that a debate on defence in the more with less? world is one of the most critical debates that we as a 447 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 448

[Mrs. Moon] Nations, the World Trade Organisation and the International Monetary Fund, to build consensus and country must engage in. Defence is where we stand tall co-operation. and are clear about our priorities, our values, and those things that we will defend to the last—those things that Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): Does the hon. Lady we will ask our young to fight to defend. agree that in relation to defence and the European On Saturday, I will be in Porthcawl to commemorate Union there is a great deal to be said for our ensuring D-day—a day when so many died, and whose sacrifice that our bottom line is defending ourselves, because our we continue to remember and honour. In Porthcawl, a first duty is to our constituents and the country at large? sleepy seaside town in Wales, D-day affected every family; throughout the town, people knew members of Mrs. Moon: I fail to see what the hon. Gentleman is the armed forces who were stationed there practising trying to achieve by that question. [Interruption.] May both landings on to our beaches and getting from them I complete the point? Obviously we have an individual into our sand dunes. Families also remembered going responsibility to our constituents and our nation state down to the railway station a few years earlier to collect has a responsibility to its citizens, but as I said at the sick, wounded and exhausted soldiers returning from beginning, it is thanks to our European consensus and Dunkirk and taking them home to feed and care for. In our European involvement that we have maintained the years since D-day, much has changed in terms of peace across Europe for longer than at any time in our defence, but much has remained the same, too. However, history. such immediate and direct connection between us as citizens and our armed forces and our personal Mr. Cash: Absolute rubbish. understanding of the need for security and defence have, I fear, been weakened. A deepening disengagement Mrs. Moon: I apologise if the hon. Gentleman thinks has arisen between the public and our armed forces, but I am talking rubbish—I obviously spoke the same rubbish I know that, as Members, we take seriously the responsibility when I taught history. to help re-establish that engagement. The United Nations agreed the universal declaration Nowadays, the enemy we need to defend ourselves of human rights as far back as 1948, and many individuals against is less clear. The nation-to-nation battlefront from across the political spectrum have argued that we has been replaced by the insidious fear of an enemy that have a moral duty to ensure that human rights are is unpredictable, unseen and global. We face pandemics protected no matter where the abuses occur. Anyone such as swine fever and bird flu, which is carried by who watched Kate Adie’s programme on Tiananmen fellow citizens who are free to travel the world, but also, Square last night and saw the ongoing effect of those potentially, carried deliberately by terrorists. We have events on those who were present will understand how tsunamis, heat waves and hurricanes as our climate far we still have to travel for all members of the Security change brings with it threats of food, water and energy Council to understand the central tenet of human rights. shortages. Pirate DVDs are sold, sometimes to law-abiding A discussion on the future role of the United Nations is citizens, and people traffickers and drug dealers sell long overdue. Should the Security Council be expanded their goods, all of which can fund terrorism and crime. to give wider credibility to its voice and decisions? New technology brings new threats—cyber attacks, Would the inclusion of India and Brazil, as emerging asymmetrical warfare—and the internet has grown into economically powerful nations, widen the legitimacy of a powerful voice, where small mistakes can have huge UN decisions and heighten the interdependency of our consequences. world? Our defence against those threats is a broad security Despite this criticism, it was only the UN, in 2000, toolkit, which includes not only our armed forces, but that could unanimously pass resolution 1325, which our politicians, diplomats and security services, and our addressed the impact of war on women and called for law enforcement, ambulance and coastguard agencies their involvement in peace and resolution discussions and other emergency services, as well as our economists, and at all levels of decision making in conflict-resolution non-governmental organisations and citizens. Together, talks. Why women? The answer is that the most vulnerable they exemplify the fact that security is the prime function person in the front line of any conflict is not in the of the state, for without the state there is no rule of law, military—it is the female civilian. It remains the men no peace, no stability and no security. with the guns who get to the peace table; women are for the non-governmental organisations and the male leaders Defence is no longer the remit only of the Ministry of to sort out. I earnestly believe that resolution 1325 must Defence; every Department of State has a defence role become a central tenet of our capacity building, if for to play. That includes supporting education around the no other reason than that we know that the wider world, establishing individual freedoms, protecting human engagement of women in their communities and in rights wherever they are attacked, creating fair-trade their countries through education and employment can agreements to allow countries to develop, and the promotion increase a country’s gross domestic product by 3 per of democracy and the rule of law both nationally and cent. internationally. I am a new member of the Select Committee on Defence in a global world requires working with Defence. Unlike its other members, I have no background regional partners in institutions such as the European in defence, although my father served in the Merchant Union and NATO, and with countries with whom we Navy and for many years was active in the Sea Cadet have memorandums of understanding, treaties, defence Corps. As a child of the ’60s, I marched against war and obligations and where agreements have been signed, joined CND. Before I entered the House, my background and also with global bodies such as the G20, the United was in health and social care, child and adult protection, 449 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 450 women’s rights and the environment, so what am I Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): An increasing number doing on the Defence Committee and, indeed, in this of young ladies are now playing roles in the armed debate? [Laughter.] There is laughter from the gentlemen forces. What is the hon. Lady’s view of females being on the Conservative Benches, who clearly do not feel put in the front line of infantry regiments, in the that women have a right to a voice in defence matters, killing field? and that perhaps shows the problem that women face in entering the world of defence; it remains the macho Mrs. Moon: We have women in the front line in all world of the virile male who has failed to protect sorts of roles, and women have shown their capacity to women for generations. meet the requirements of the front line in those roles. I see no problem in women undertaking front-line roles. Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con) rose— Later this year, as part of the scheme, I will visit Afghanistan and I look forward to seeing not only the Mrs. Moon: I shall certainly give way to the courteous security activities of our forces, but the work they are hon. Lady, as opposed to the giggling people on the undertaking in capacity building, protecting civilians, Conservative Front Bench. stabilisation and reconstruction, the use of aid, training and political engagement. That is work our forces have Ann Winterton: As someone who has been interested undertaken over the years across the globe, and of in defence for some time and has built up a slight which we can be rightly proud. expertise in one particular area, may I say that my male If we are to be successful in the region, we must also colleagues have been very helpful and supportive? It is a undertake those responsibilities in Pakistan. We know very good thing that the hon. Lady is on the Defence that Pakistan, as a nuclear state, faces instability. We Committee and I hope that she enjoys her work. She know that the Taliban have secured bases in Pakistan. will learn a lot about the defence world and will be able The risk to the world of an unstable Pakistan or a to contribute greatly. Pakistan where the Taliban have access to nuclear weapons is too frightening to contemplate. Mrs. Moon: I thank the hon. Lady for those remarks. Our armed forces have played a crucial role in keeping I can confirm to her that my colleagues on the Defence peace in the Balkans. Across Africa, we are looking at Committee have been highly supportive, most helpful protecting civilians and at stabilisation and reconstruction. and extremely courteous. My comments were not aimed In the Falklands, we still maintain a critical military at the members of the Defence Committee. presence, providing security to the people who live on those islands. Mr. Arbuthnot: May I put on the record that I confirm precisely what my hon. Friend the Member for Congleton It is inevitable that as some of the old threats to our (Ann Winterton) said? national security begin to fade others will replace them, but our common values of democracy, individual liberty, the rule of law and the peaceful resolution of disputes Mrs. Moon: I can confirm that the right hon. Gentleman, require us to be vigilant and prepared. Sometimes our the Chairman of the Defence Committee, has been one armed forces will have to be deployed to defend those of the most courteous. values. When those occasions arise, we must ensure that I am a member of the Committee because I recognise we are fully prepared, that our armed forces are resourced that defending our way of life, with all its failings and and that they are fully supported both before and after faults, is imperative. The people who died on D-day and deployment. They rightly deserve quality housing for in the days before and after that enabled us to enjoy the their families and quality training and equipment. As freedoms that we sadly take for granted—to have the we increasingly understand the effects of trauma from quality of life and to have the expansion of health, the tasks that our forces are asked to carry out, the education and opportunities across the sexes and classes experiences that they encounter and the grief that they that we enjoy in Britain today. As citizens of this face, we must also provide quality psychological support country we have a balance of rights, interests and both before and after deployment. responsibilities. So too, as a citizen of the world, our I understand that in this complex world, the MOD nation has rights to defend and responsibilities to discharge. has two key tasks: defending the United Kingdom and Sometimes, as in the past, the maintenance of those its interests while strengthening international peace and rights and the discharge of those responsibilities in the stability. As we approach the anniversary of D-day, it wider world require the applications of force. would perhaps be appropriate to remind ourselves of a At present, we are actively involved in conflict in quote from Winston Churchill: Afghanistan, in a crucial battle against the Taliban that “We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready must be won in order to ensure any modicum of security in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” in an unsettled region and across the world. It is in our national interest to be in Afghanistan. We do not want that country once again to be a base for international 3.12 pm terrorism that threatens us all. Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD): I always welcome Since joining the Defence Committee, I have also the opportunity to debate defence in the world, but I joined the armed forces parliamentary scheme so that I echo the observations of the hon. Member for Woodspring can flesh out my hinterland of understanding of the (Dr. Fox). There is one date in the annual parliamentary recruitment, selection, training, skills, equipment and calendar that is the most notorious graveyard slot, and pressures on our military. I am spending a year with the that is usually the first Thursday in May, when we have RAF and have been deeply impressed by the dedication, a round of local elections. This year, it happens to be in focus and skills of everyone I have met. June and is even more of a graveyard slot, because the 451 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 452

[Nick Harvey] I think that it was the hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) who tabled a question some months ago local elections coincide with the European elections. I about the likely availability of helicopters in years to was absolutely astonished to see this piece of timetabling come, as existing helicopters go out of commission. when the agenda came out for this week. Nevertheless, Making even the most optimistic assumptions about we plough on and this is a welcome opportunity to the in-service date for new helicopters that will follow, discuss these matters. one can see that there are serious problems coming up Like others, I start by paying tribute to those who in the next few years. I still do not feel that we have have lost their lives in the service of our country. On this heard any adequate response from the Government on occasion, as we are having this debate at a time when how we will get our helicopter lift capacity up to that operations in Iraq are largely concluded and withdrawal which the troops need in Afghanistan. I welcome is about to commence, I particularly want to say that initiatives such as the one that the Government although my colleagues and I did not agree with the undertook with the French Government to try to boost decision to invade Iraq, we very much pay tribute to the the availability of helicopters at a European level, but courage, professionalism and dedication of all those thus far, I do not think that it has yielded much. I hope who have served throughout the engagement in Iraq, that they will stick at it, though, and I hope that more including those who have given their lives and those NATO countries will provide helicopters for the who have come back from those operations wounded in operation. However, the last time I saw an answer on body and in mind. They have done what the nation the subject, only three had been committed; they were called on them to do and we should pay tribute to the from the Czech Republic. service that they have given. The lack of helicopter capacity is becoming a big issue. People have been going on about it for a long Mr. Jenkin: I want to refer to the hon. Gentleman’s time, but I just do not feel that a response commensurate earlier point about the timing of the debate. My hon. to the challenge has been forthcoming. I know that we Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) suggested await decisions on some routine procurements, whether that the debate was taking place now because the they be from AgustaWestland or whoever, but I wonder Government regard it as unimportant. Perhaps it is whether the sheer scale of the problem will require because they regard this debate as so important and yet interim solutions to be found, even if ultimately longer-term embarrassing, because of the failures of Government solutions will point in a different direction. There is an policy, that they have decided to put it on this day. availability of helicopters, although they are possibly not of the sort of capability that we would ideally want Nick Harvey: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting in the helicopters that we will build and develop in the point. I suspect we will never know quite why it was, but long term. However, there are short-term solutions, if the discussion that the hon. Member for Woodspring the Government are willing to consider them. imagined taking place in the Leader of the House’s office sounded altogether authentic to my way of thinking. It has already been said in this debate that any consideration of Afghanistan increasingly needs to take Although the debate does, in a sense, mark the end of into account the situation in Pakistan. Obviously, the most of our activity in Iraq, I am sure, and hope very Americans have done that by appointing a single envoy much, that we will regularly debate not only the state of to deal with both problems. There are very worrying security in that country and the wider region but the developments that should cause us all concern. The progress of economic development—a subject that has unstable state in Pakistan is greatly worrying. Although been mentioned—so that we can judge over the longer its Government’s forces have hit back seemingly quite term what the overall impact of the west’s involvement effectively recently, the underlying problems are there there has been. However, our attention now rightly for all to see. Also, increasingly reports are coming focuses largely on Afghanistan, where our troops are through of Taliban elements in Afghanistan and Pakistan working tirelessly, but where it is widely recognised that coming together—up to now they have had certain we have a long, hard job still to do. There is no prospect, tensions, and there have been difficulties between them— in any way, of a quick fix. The death toll has risen because they recognise that they have a new challenge quickly in recent weeks, and the insurgents are constantly to face, particularly as America is committing more employing new and ever more deadly methods, to which troops to Afghanistan. It is hard to predict or sense we have to find new ways of responding. exactly how that will play out on the ground, but it The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. raises the point that, as far as quite authoritative reports Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies), would have us believe, the Pakistan intelligence agency who speaks in the House on defence procurement matters, had, for good or ill, been providing resources to the said in response to a question on Monday in this Afghanistan elements of the Taliban in anticipation of Chamber that more and more equipment was being having to deal with them at some point after the west delivered to the front line, and we have to hope that that had completed its operations in Afghanistan. Those is right. In some cases, he did not give many indications elements are now cosying up to the Pakistan Taliban, of numbers and quantities; I suppose that he might so we end up with the possibility—by no means reasonably say that he would not want to broadcast unprecedented—that the Pakistani military will find some of that information. However, we still have serious itself confronting an enemy to whom it has contributed ongoing concerns, both about the provision of armoured arms and equipment. That, I hope, will at the very least vehicles—I readily acknowledge the significant progress give it pause for thought in terms of the future, because that has been made on that—and about helicopter lift there is a self-perpetuating cycle in the region, whereby capacity, which will become a real problem the longer funds that are given for one purpose end up having a the engagement goes on in Afghanistan. completely different and unanticipated impact. 453 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 454

The spill-over between the two countries is potentially amassing the resources to do, we will have to consider difficult, because to date NATO’s Afghanistan operation how we can best co-operate with our allies, particularly has relied very much on safe and easy routes through in NATO, to ensure that the resources that we can make Pakistan and on the resolute support of Pakistan. The available dovetail as effectively as possible. In that way, question of whether in the future we will be able to even if we are not capable of doing on the very widest count on that to anything like the same degree worries front all the things that we want to do alone, we will at me considerably. least be capable of ensuring that they can be done in I, like the official Opposition’s Front-Bench team, co-operation with our allies. Better collective planning have said in previous defence debates that there is a long with our allies would enable that, but an absolute overdue need for a strategic defence review. It remains a prerequisite is a systematic, evidence-based and empirical mystery to me why the Government, uniquely, do not approach to a review, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned. seem to think it necessary. We know that the Ministry of I cannot understand why the Government continue Defence is under intense budgetary pressure: there is, by to resist. This side of an election, I would have thought anyone’s reckoning, a black hole in its budget; we regularly that at the very least there would be some benefit in discuss in the House the impact of overstretch and both sides of the House agreeing the sort of questions ongoing operations; and we know that the difficulties, that need to be asked and the sort of approach that needs and demands on the defence budget will increase might be taken, even if in reality the work of the review inexorably year on year. However, we know also that, in would not begin in earnest until the other side of the the wake of the economic crisis, the next Government election. will have a major task on their hands to try to control public expenditure in such a fashion that restores some Huge procurement projects are sitting—notionally, equilibrium to the nation’s finances. They will have to at least—on the Government’s books. We are waiting take some immensely difficult decisions, balancing the for answers, but the Government cannot make decisions different demands on the public purse which will come about the projects because of the economic circumstances. from the different Departments. In that context, in It is not always possible to identify precisely what the particular, a strategic defence review is absolutely dilemmas are, for reasons to which the hon. Gentleman fundamental and necessary. has alluded in the House before. I am thinking of this country’s deficit in terms of the transparency of our We have to ask the basic question, what does the procurement processes compared with those in many nation expect its armed forces to do in the years to come other western democracies, where national legislatures and how can we achieve that? The question has also to can scrutinise in far more detail the procurement decisions be asked, are we all still of the view, as I am, that we and dilemmas faced by the Governments in question. should continue the task set out in the previous strategic We do ourselves no good service in this country through defence review of acting as a force for good throughout the opaque way in which we go about many of these the world? Some have called it liberal interventionism, things. and if the answer is yes, that we are, what are its implications for manpower, equipment and expenditure? I have repeatedly urged that we need a new approach If those of us who believe that we should remain willing to procurement, because, more than anything else in the to play such a part want to take the public with us and defence field, it has not been a success in recent decades. convince them that, in the climate that I have described, One can point to the egregious examples of procurement painful and difficult choices have to be made between mishaps, but our procurement processes are not adequate competing demands on the public purse, the only way right across the piece. We have to start them again from in which we can hope to do so is by having a major scratch. In respect of procurement and of maintaining national debate about the armed forces’ role and the strategic defence industries, we need to look more effectively resources that should be made available to them. The at how we co-operate best with our natural allies. only sensible way to go about that is through a There have been some terrible co-operative procurements, Government-conducted defence review, and I very much but that does not mean that we should be put off the hope that, whatever Government are in power after the idea altogether. I abhor the approach that has looked at election, which cannot be far away, they will see that, if European defence procurements and then got into the we want to continue to play such a part, we need to take realms of pork barrel politics by divvying up the work the public with us. through the absurd notion of juste retour. The defence industries are well ahead of the political community in Dr. Fox: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is having already organised themselves along international also a need for better predictability and empiricism in lines; very few of the companies are national—they are the process? Does he agree also that we need to begin a all transnational, multinational and international. National defence review by asking what Britain’s national interests Governments have some way to go in catching up with are; what the predictable threat environment is; what and taking advantage of that. capabilities we require to protect those interests in that The hon. Gentleman rightly alluded to the renewed environment; what equipment programmes we require; threats presented by the nuclear ambitions of North and, then, to assess our budgetary capabilities? We need Korea and Iran. If either country goes ahead with its to bring logic and empiricism to what is currently a nuclear programmes, in the wake of international chaotic process. condemnation and in breach of the existing treaties, that will inevitably trigger proliferation among their Nick Harvey: I entirely agree with all that. If at the neighbouring states. I welcome the efforts by French end of the process, which we should approach in exactly President Sarkozy to try to re-engage Iran in a new that way, we still find a gap between what we sincerely dialogue about its nuclear ambitions. I regret that the want to do and what we believe we are capable of progress that seemed to be being made with North 455 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 456

[Nick Harvey] risk that some of the problems of Afghanistan will always be thought to be somebody else’s problem. We Korea appears to have gone into reverse gear. Next year, are operating in a coalition there, and we cannot achieve we have the nuclear non-proliferation treaty review everything that we want to because we do not have the conference. I hope that the new dialogue that appears to final say. Partly because of that, we are failing as an exist between President Obama and Russia is capable of international coalition to recognise the enormous size giving some renewed impetus to the course of nuclear of the task that we are facing. disarmament. However, the good news that one might In the Balkans, we put 20 times as many troops and detect in their rapprochement has to be balanced against 50 times as much resource into a problem that was the more worrying news in North Korea and Iran. rather easier to solve. In Afghanistan, the key task that Some very tough decisions need to be taken in the we face is bringing governance to a country that, frankly, defence arena, and I do not believe there is any realistic has not had it in the past. We have as our secondary chance of that happening this side of an election. Those task the destruction of the crop that is the main livelihood decisions should not be kept waiting for too much of much of the country, which is a rather challenging longer. For that reason, I share the wish of others to see task in itself. The tools that we have to achieve those an election as soon as possible so that a new Government two tasks are the Afghans themselves, who are wonderful have the authority to take some of these difficult decisions people but do not really like being told what to do by because, whatever the final conclusions, they will have foreigners. an opportunity cost. I hope that the dedication of our The Select Committee on Defence is about to begin armed forces, who are fighting in many different parts an inquiry into the comprehensive approach. It is a of the world on our behalf, will be matched by a great honour to chair that Committee, and I pay tribute determination in the Ministry of Defence to resolve to the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) for her some of the issues that have been awaiting decisions for contribution, recent as it has been. I can assure her that far too long. is hugely valued. We are lucky to have a dedicated group We are very well served by our armed forces personnel, of members and a wonderful support staff who ensure and there is some way to go yet before we really do that our inquiries are as productive as they can be. justice to the work that they are putting in on our behalf around the world by ensuring that we sort out our The questions about the comprehensive approach are priorities and equip them with everything that they difficult to answer. Are we tying the development of need to guarantee their safety and the success of the new livelihoods in with the security that our forces operations in which they are engaged. bring? For example, will the road network be kept secure from improvised explosive devices so that people can get their produce to market? Will it be kept secure 3.32 pm from roadblocks, sometimes police roadblocks, where protection money is demanded despite a tiny margin of Mr. James Arbuthnot (North-East Hampshire) (Con): profit? That is the sort of thing that local people in I want to begin, if I may, by saying that this debate is an Afghanistan worry about. All those issues have to be absolute disgrace. It is quite wrong that an issue of such dealt with in a country that has little education, crucial importance is always debated before an empty mountainous terrain, no secure infrastructure, no policeable House. We have to find a way of bringing out the debate borders and no natural resources. It is awash with in such a way as to capture the imagination of the weapons, most of them provided by us. The task is a people of this country and, frankly, of this Parliament. large one to face. At the moment, we are talking to an empty Public Gallery, an empty Press Gallery and an empty Chamber. None of the important things that we will say about this Dr. Fox: I hope that one of the most important issues vital subject, which is central to the survival of this that the Defence Committee will examine is Britain’s country, to our values, and to democracies across the ability to carry out construction in a conflict environment. world will be listened to at all. We might as well not be It seems to me that until we are able to develop that here. capability, there will be a major gap in our ability to deal with conflicts such as Afghanistan should they Having said that, I still have one or two things that I arise in any other part of the world. might as well say. When we had a similar debate this time last year, we would have been reminding ourselves that Basra had been completely transformed as a result Mr. Arbuthnot: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend, of the “Charge of the Knights”. We would have looked who has put his finger on a most important point. That at Iraq and thought, much to our surprise in many is one of the matters on which we will concentrate ways, that things had gone much better than we might heavily in our inquiry into the comprehensive approach, have expected. We should all share in the tribute paid to and I am grateful to him for making that point. I believe our armed forces for the immense things that they that it was my hon. Friend who said that local government achieved in Iraq and for the massive sacrifices that they in Helmand is making good progress under Governor made. We express our thanks to them for that. Mangal, who I agree is an extremely effective governor, I was always more optimistic about what we could but it is good progress from an extremely low base. achieve in Iraq than about what we could achieve in Obviously we cannot talk about Afghanistan without Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, we have had the benefit considering Pakistan, just next door. Pakistan, of course, of operating in a larger coalition. Coalitions bring is a nuclear power and has already contributed dramatically strength, but they also bring weaknesses and difficulties. to the proliferation of nuclear power through the operations The weakness is a lack of coherence and a risk of of A. Q. Khan. The dangers of some of its nuclear international suspicions and resentments. There is a real weapons falling into the hands of the Taliban or al-Qaeda 457 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 458 are huge. The close links and instant communication Abkhazia? Are we simply afraid of upsetting Russia, or between this country and Pakistan mean that threats is the subject of little importance or interest to western there are immediately threats here. nations? Pakistan’s economy is in trouble in the global recession, so it is unlikely to be able to contain the insurgency Mr. Arbuthnot: I think that there are a lot of reasons there without our help. Yet there is no prospect of for that. I suspect that one of the reasons is that western foreign troops being allowed into Pakistan to help it do Governments are not spending enough on defence, so so. As I said in an intervention on the Secretary of they do not know what else they could do. They do not State, all that is not made easier by the fact that Pakistan know whether they could back up any words about spends only 2 per cent. of its gross domestic product on Russia with actions. That is a serious worry about our education, which leaves such a huge void for the madrassahs western allies as a whole, but it is also a serious worry to fill and provides an opportunity for people to be about this country, although I will come to that in just a influenced by insurgents and radicals from an early age. moment. The instability in the region means that it has taken Next door to Russia is China, which has its pressures over from Israel as the most insecure area of the world. of population and an urban-rural divide. Incidentally, if It must therefore be the first priority of not only this we are looking ahead to problems of defence in the country but of our allies. We must begin the huge task world, a real cause of instability in the future may be of explaining the importance of all that to our allies, the vast empty lands of eastern Russia right next door because we are not strong enough to cope with helping to the heavily over-populated areas of China, particularly Pakistan alone. Even with the help of the United States, given that those areas of eastern Russia have such huge we are not strong enough. We need the support of our natural resources. I suspect that Russia is looking ahead European allies above all, so we must do a lot of with apprehension to what might happen there. We diplomatic work. should begin to form a view on what effect that sort of issue might have on the western world. Next door is Iran. When the President of Iran talked China is growing strongly. It owns a huge amount of about wiping Israel off the face of the map, he was not United States debt. The Chinese are investing in education joking; he firmly believes it. The support for terrorism in a way that will be very effective for their country. in Palestine, Israel, Lebanon and elsewhere has become They take a long-term view—perhaps a longer-term a hallmark of Iran’s foreign policy. Iran is a threat to all view than the western world takes—and we cannot its neighbours, which they recognise perhaps better ignore their phenomenal rise, because it will have defence than many European countries, which have provided implications. All those things are things that we can such divided and weak responses to Iran’s nuclear ambitions. look at in deciding what we ought to be thinking about in respect of defence in the world. Mrs. Moon: The right hon. Gentleman talked about the importance of engaging with not only our American Mrs. Moon: I am sorry to interrupt the right hon. but our European allies on Pakistan, and the difficulties Gentleman a second time, but he is talking about an that we all face because of attitudes emanating from area that is of interest to me, particularly in respect of Iran. Does he agree that, in using our diplomacy, it is the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation and its crucial to talk to other Muslim leaders so that what implications for the northern border to which he has is right for Pakistan does not become a western Christian referred, and China’s attitude towards the other powers view but a world view of the changes that are needed? in the region. China’s stance under the terms of the agreement, which is about non-interference, is that neither Mr. Arbuthnot: I entirely agree. I pay tribute to President it nor any other member of the Shanghai Co-operation Obama for his speech today in Egypt, in which he Organisation—Russia is a signatory, while Pakistan said—very effectively—that America is not at war with and India have observer status—will try to impose Islam and never will be. Islam is not the problem; it is a values on other states, which is something that they see great religion, which we all respect enormously. the west as doing. However, those states will agree to combine to protect each other’s independence and integrity. Next door to Iran is Russia—a wonderful country Is that new force not something that we should be aware which is led by a small Government of little democratic of, and is it not a risk to our ways of working? validity. It is capable of putting a stranglehold on energy for the rest of the world, and it appears to be Mr. Arbuthnot: That is the current Chinese attitude. I establishing mechanisms to achieve that. It is willing to suspect that as China’s requirements for more and more bully its former Soviet neighbours with lethal and resources grow, in order to satisfy a growing middle disproportionate force, and its motivation appears to be class in China, the Chinese will begin to need to make gaining self-respect. That is not the best way to go more inroads into other countries, not just in that about achieving that. If Russia could bring itself firmly region, but in places such as Africa. The issue that the within the community of nations, and work for the hon. Lady raises is certainly something of which that good of the world—as the hon. Member for North we need to be strongly aware. I know that she has Devon (Nick Harvey) said that we as a country should expressed an interest in it on the Defence Committee, do—its self-respect would return in much shorter order. and I hope that she will continue to do so, because it is a matter of great importance. Dr. Fox: My right hon. Friend is a respected and So far I have been talking about things that we are long-serving Member, who has also served in government. able to see already. Ten years ago we would not have From his experience, why does he think that western been able to foresee any of them—except, perhaps, Governments are making so little comment about the those to do with China. What will be happening in continuing Russian presence in South Ossetia and 10 years’ time that we cannot now foresee? Are we 459 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 460

[Mr. Arbuthnot] We are relying heavily on more and more powerful equipment, but we are still losing the capacity to act prepared now to have a defence budget and a defence alongside our closest ally, the United States. We have stance that will be completely unable to cope with the dwindling armed forces and a tiny reserve, and all of unforeseen in 10 years’ time? this means that there is less and less connection with the I believe that defence is at a watershed. There are people whom the armed forces are protecting, because fundamental structural flaws in the Ministry of Defence, they do not meet them on a regular basis. I am afraid at a time when the Army is down to fewer than 100,000 that the review of the reserve forces appears to be and people are no longer sure what equipment can be managing the decline of the armed forces rather than bought. There are huge internal battles for survival, for inspiring their rebirth. We have a public who do not supremacy and for equipment between the different understand the armed forces or what they are doing, services, and with the civil service. There appears to be and who therefore do not support defence spending. As no cohesive view to show to the world, or even internally, a result, there is no money to spend on defence. We have within the Ministry of Defence. There is a budget that spent the money, for decades ahead, on the banks. has been weakened over decades by war and by underfunding. Mr. Gerald Howarth: My right hon. Friend suggests At the end of the cold war, we saw two changes. First, that the public may not be as supportive of the armed nuclear deterrence and mutually assured destruction forces as they once were, but I would like him to reflect stopped being as effective as they had previously been, further on that. The common wisdom has been that the so we should then have spent more, not less, on conventional public will not support increased expenditure because arms. Secondly, the world became less stable, rather they do not understand the armed forces, but I put it to than more stable. Again, we should therefore have spent my right hon. Friend that we have seen a quite astonishing more, rather than less. [Interruption.] I will give way to wave of outpourings from people recently—and not the Minister if he wants to intervene. No, he does not. just in Wootton Bassett, where the reception of our So, we took the peace dividend, and that was a serious fallen heroes was particularly dignified, but right across mistake. If the Minister is hinting, by his gestures from the land. Perhaps we politicians—and, indeed, military a sedentary position, that it was the Conservatives who commanders—are in danger of misunderstanding the took that peace dividend, I can assure him that we were public mood. whipped on by the Labour party every step of the way. Everybody in the western world was saying, “Thank Mr. Arbuthnot: I desperately hope that my hon. Friend heavens, we can spend less on equipment,” and it was is right. I feel that if the public are asked whether they the Labour party that went into the 1997 election think the armed forces are being treated unfairly, they promising to reduce spending on defence to the European will reply with a resounding yes, but if they are asked average. whether they want funding for the new ward in their It was a dreadful mistake to take the peace dividend. local hospital to be cut in order to provide more for the The result is that there is now a black hole in the defence armed forces, I suspect that they will be much less budget. Things have been made worse recently by the certain in their answer. I believe that we have to take the knowledge that there is to be no bad news coming out argument over this question out to the public, because of defence, and no new money going into defence. A lot they need to understand the issues the country is facing. of the defence decisions that should have been taken last year or the year before have therefore been postponed When it comes to the current team of Defence until just after the general election. When the pigeons Ministers—it is an excellent team, incidentally—I have come home to roost, they will discover that there is no a suspicion, although none of them have told me so, roost to come home to. that they are desperately hoping that they lose the next election because some of the decisions that they would There is a strategy in the Ministry of Defence that otherwise have to take would, largely because of the relies very heavily on the power of new equipment but lack of money, be so awful. They know that we are in ignores the quality that comes from quantity.The manpower deep trouble. of the armed forces has therefore been reduced to a level that is close to unsustainable. The hon. Member for North Devon talked about helicopters. The helicopters Mr. Jenkin: Staying with the theme of the public’s are going to become much more powerful, but there will attitude towards defence spending, we in the House of be so few of them that they will not be able to be Commons should have learned in recent weeks how anywhere. neglecting an issue can engulf us in public rage. Neglect of this particular issue may be fine in peacetime and Bob Russell: The right hon. Gentleman said that the when we are deploying our troops in faraway and size of the Army was about 100,000. Is it his understanding little-understood battles, but if we require our armed that approximately 10 per cent. are from overseas? Does forces to do something at short notice that they are not he agree that there is a need to recruit more from the capable of doing and it results in disaster, we need to be United Kingdom if we are not to become increasingly aware that the wrath of the British people over our dependent on overseas members of the Army? neglect will be unimaginable—and we will deserve it. Mr. Arbuthnot: I think that the figure is 9 per cent., but, yes, I believe that it is necessary to have larger Mr. Arbuthnot: My hon. Friend is quite right, which armed forces. I am just about to talk about money, but is why conducting this debate on this particular day is were is the money to come from for that? This is a such a disgrace. It is excellent when Defence Ministers serious issue that the country—not just the Government, regularly go out to places such as Afghanistan and the Opposition and politicians—has to face. know what they are talking about—but I cannot remember 461 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 462 the last time a Treasury Minister went out to Afghanistan. tells us that that is a simple matter of priorities. He is Perhaps the Minister could enlighten me about that, but right; it is—and he has the wrong priorities. Our ability I suspect that he probably will not. to respond quickly and effectively to emerging threats is built on the knowledge base, which is itself built on The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): sustained investment in research and development since The right hon. Gentleman makes some important points, the 1980s. He might say that he wants industry to do which we should all be prepared to address. Let me first more of the research. It is doing that. In 2006-07, reassure him, however, that no matter what the difficulties according to the Society of British Aerospace Companies, in future, I would far rather take the decisions myself the defence sector invested £3.34 billion in research and than have him or his colleagues taking them; he should development, which was about 40 per cent. of the EU’s be under no illusions whatever about that. What he and 15 per cent. of the UK’s research and development appears to be saying—I think with a degree of honesty—is spend. However, this country’s defence industry needs that despite the fact that he deprecates the situation we some customers, which means the Ministry of Defence. are in, his own party, too, would have to cut defence After that catalogue of despair there is some hope, capability. [Interruption.] That is effectively what he which comes from two sources. The first source of that said. If he is not saying that, will he tell us, in the honest hope is the men and women of our armed forces. Long, and open way in which he speaks in these debates, what long ago as a Defence Minister, I was awed by the he believes will be in all the parties’ manifestos at the strength of purpose of our armed forces—their coming general election—no matter how near or far determination, honesty, courage, humility and intellectual away it is—and, in particular, whether his party is likely ability, which I was not necessarily expecting when I to pledge to improve defence spending over and above went into the Ministry, but it was certainly there. They what the Government have pledged? were wonderful men and women, and so were the civil servants who supported them. As Chairman of the Mr. Arbuthnot: I did not say that my party would cut Defence Committee, I have had that confirmed every defence. Frankly, however, I very much doubt that there time I have met them. We have some outstanding people; will be much difference between the defence spending I just do not think that we are making the best use of plans in the Labour manifesto and those in the Conservative them. manifesto. What I have always tried to do as Chairman The second source of hope is the resilience and of the Defence Select Committee is to tell the people of determination of the people of this country. When they this country that they need to realise how important are given the right information and things are properly defence spending is, and that they should put pressure explained, they make the right choices. on both the Chancellor and shadow Chancellor of the I shall end on the point that we need a strategic Exchequer, and on all of us, to change our approach to defence review in the full public gaze. We are getting a defence spending, because the whole country needs it. non-strategic defence review in the secrecy of the Ministry It is essential that we change, because our defence of Defence. That will not do the trick. First, as my hon. spending is down to about 2 per cent. of GDP—the Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox) so rightly lowest since the 1930s. That is leading to disrespect. The said, we need to work out what defence is for. What do people of this country have not discussed that or considered we need to defend? Secondly, we need to reform the the problem that is about to hit them, which will hit Ministry of Defence so that it becomes coherent, cohesive, them whoever wins the next election. The issue is not functional, straightforward and directed. whether we remain a first-order power, but whether we My hon. Friend correctly said that we need to reform become a second-order or a third-order power. In other the defence acquisition process, and I was delighted words, will we be able to operate alongside France, or with the Secretary of State’s comments about Bernard will we be limited to operating alongside Belgium and Gray’s inquiry, about which I have heard good things. Italy? We need to put into the job of defence acquisition The public, I hope, will have a view on that, but only people who are intrinsically good at it, rather than those if they are asked. For that reason, I strongly believe that who do it because a gap has opened up for the next two we need a strategic defence review. One thing that we years. We need to ensure that those who are best at the need to consider is research and technology. I shall job carry on doing it rather than getting moved on quote a paragraph: quickly. We need a defence acquisition process led by “A recent MOD sponsored study analysing 11 major defence capability rather than by programmes. We need to force capable nations has uncovered a highly significant correlation the armed forces to make choices between what they between equipment capability and R&T investment in the last want to be able to do, instead of piling up ever more 5-30 years… It shows that there is a simple ‘you get what you pay unrealistic shopping lists, egged on by the defence industry, for’ relationship between R&T spend and equipment quality, with and unrestrained by any functioning process in the a sharp law of diminishing returns, and that R&T investment Ministry of Defence. buys a time advantage over open market equipment.” Finally, we need to tell the people about the importance That paragraph was written by the Government in the of what the Ministry of Defence does. We need to tie it defence industrial strategy, so what is the Ministry of in with our national interests and explain why it is Defence doing about this? Astonishingly, it is cutting its important to the people. This is a defence-oriented research and technology budget by 7 per cent. this year, nation. If there is a war, we are more than likely to be and it looks as though that is to continue over the next involved in it. This country does not want to be an few years. also-ran nation. We have interests all round the world, The Under-Secretary of State for Defence, the hon. which we want to protect, and citizens at home and Member for Grantham and Stamford (Mr. Davies), abroad whom we must defend. That, after all, is what who has responsibility for defence equipment and support, Government is for. 463 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 464

4.6 pm so, when the threat spectrum is both more complex and demanding. It is difficult not to conclude that our focus on preparing and Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): On the day when equipping for a particular type of conventional state threat has this debate was announced, I asked the Leader of the left us unbalanced. Our enemies have adapted. So must we.” House at business questions whether, in a week when The question that I pose to the House this afternoon is four young soldiers had been killed in Afghanistan, it “Have we, and will we?” was a good idea to hold such a debate on the day of The House will have to forgive me if I stick to my last, local and European elections. She said that the reason but before I do so, let me observe that what General Sir for it being held on that day was that there would be no Richard Dannatt was saying was more or less what the vote. There are no votes on most Thursdays because of Secretary of State was saying. The campaigns in which the ridiculous modernisation programme the House has we are currently having to be involved are connected undertaken in recent years, and I suggest that it is an with what I call “next-war-itis”. They are predominantly insult to our armed services that the debate is being held concerned with counter-insurgency and reconstruction. today. Perhaps the changes that may be coming will feed Notwithstanding that, the debate has been excellent, through to quicker, smoother and more effective and I am sure that, after my contribution, it will continue procurement which will support the needs of troops on to be so. Before I move on to the main part of my the ground. speech, I want to pick up one or two issues. The hon. We began badly in Iraq with the Warrior, which had Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon), who, sadly, has no air conditioning and was hardly ideal for conditions just left the Chamber, said that as a history teacher she of heat and humidity. Then the Snatch Land Rover was taught that since the second world war the peace had to be replaced by 166 disastrous Vector Pinzgauers. The been kept by the European Union. That is absolute stuff Vectors were initially highly praised in many quarters, and nonsense. The peace has been kept by NATO, and but I believe that those who have been injured or have we should remember that. died in them have been failed by the media, the I also want to cross swords with the hon. Lady, and parliamentary scrutiny system and indeed the Army the Secretary of State, on co-operation and further itself. It is no good the Under-Secretary of State for integration in defence policy and acquisition through Defence, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford the European Union. I remind the House that one of (Mr. Davies), saying, as he did during defence questions the reasons why we have a shortage of airlift capacity is on Monday, that the A400M aircraft was commissioned, if that is “Its problem has been its ‘operationability’”.—[Official Report, the right word, in the days of the Government led by 1 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 10.] John Major. It was due to be delivered in 2007, in the I assume that he meant that it did not live up to light of which the order for Hercules J aircraft was expectations, but—with due deference to the Minister—we diminished. Therefore, our lack of airlift capacity is knew that before the Vector was deployed, and in my because of the European Union’s incompetence in view it should never have been deployed at all. co-operating to fulfil its obligations. The Minister for the Armed Forces is shaking his head— I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Defence Committee, that he and the members of Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Frowning. his Committee should consider an inquiry into the issue. I think that what has happened is a national Ann Winterton: Well, both are equally bad; I would disgrace—not just the cost, but the loss of life in particular. much prefer that he was cheerful. [Interruption.] He is smiling now, and that is good. Mr. Gerald Howarth: As my hon. Friend knows, I saw I listened to the Secretary of State with a great deal of the Vector before it was unveiled. I happened to be interest. He made some interesting points, other than driving the ordinary Pinzgauer. One of the questions that which I just referred to, which chime in many ways that I asked at the time was whether the new armour with other things happening in defence. The recent being added to the vehicle required a strengthening of Whit recess gave me a welcome opportunity to read the the suspension. I was told that that was not necessary. speech made at Chatham House on 15 May by the My hon. Friend has done a tremendous job in fighting Chief of the Defence Staff, General Sir Richard Dannatt, battles on behalf of our soldiers who have not been entitled, “APerspective on the Nature of Future Conflict.” provided with adequate equipment. May I ask her a Some very important issues were raised in that speech, question that I asked the Minister on Monday, when he which I believe are worthy of further debate—especially failed to answer it? What sort of evaluation process as the supertanker of United Kingdom defence policy is does the Ministry of Defence have, given that the Vector slowly changing course, although not as fast as the was passed by a technical evaluation? We are not technical Americans are changing policy and adapting to the people in the House, and we must rely on technical realities of present conflicts. people in the Ministry of Defence, but it appears that Let me quote a paragraph of General Dannatt’s that is where the failure occurred. Has my hon. Friend a speech. He said: view on that? “The first point of consensus, as the National Security Strategy sets out, is that, ‘for the foreseeable future, no state or alliance will Ann Winterton: My hon. Friend makes a good point. have both the intent and the capability to threaten the United I was once given a briefing at the MOD when I argued Kingdom militarily, either with nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction, or with conventional forces’. Self-evidently with a young gentleman about the Vector Pinzgauers. I this statement has profound implications for Armed Forces that said to him that bearing in mind both that the driver are still largely equipped, trained and structured for a particular was right over the wheel and also the plain, ordinary view of conventional state on state warfighting—and particularly physics of how bombs explode and where deflections 465 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 466 go, it would be a death-trap, and it has proved to be so. I of the Jackal is its massive manoeuvrability; it does not have stated the following many times in this House, and have to go down the well-trodden path. If the hon. Lady I will state it again on later occasions, because in politics goes to theatre, she will know that it is a very well we sometimes have to keep on repeating and repeating thought of vehicle among all ranks. before finally, it is to be hoped, someone takes up the point being made: the design of vehicles is vital to Ann Winterton: It may be very well thought of by saving the lives of the people in them. Unless that point some, but I would not like to hazard a guess as to how is grasped within the MOD, we are whistling in the many young men have been killed in it unnecessarily. I wind. will leave the subject there and move on, unless the The Snatch Land Rover has now been upgraded to Minister wants me to give way again. the Vixen and more than 200 Huskys have been procured at a cost of just under £600,000 each. They will prove to Mr. Ainsworth: The hon. Lady is suggesting that be another failure, replacing an earlier failure. The there is some easy alternative that would give our people Americans rejected this vehicle as it sustained a hull the capability that they need to do the job and yet breach on the mine resistant ambush protected— remove if not the entire risk, a lot of the risk associated MRAP—level 1 standard test. with the Jackal. I do not believe that she is correct. The 401 Panther command and liaison vehicles, which cost a cool £413,000 each, have taken longer than the Ann Winterton: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman duration of world war two to bring into service, with does not think I was born yesterday. War is bloody and constant upgrades. They are in every way an expensive people get killed in it, but what is desperate is the fact and inferior vehicle and were originally capable of that this country has not supported its soldiers in conflict NATO standard mine protection STANAG 4569 level with the right kind of vehicles, which can be obtained, 2a, which roughly translated means that they have and has instead made major mistakes in procurement. protection against 6 kg of explosive, but they will be put He and I are not going to agree on this subject, so I into operation where 7.5 kg Russian mines are prevalent. should move on because I have made my point and we Will the Minister please confirm in his winding-up have had our disagreement. speech whether the latest £20 million upgrade has taken Blast absorption vehicles are not cheaper, and when protection up to level 3a and 3b, and if he cannot do they encounter an explosion not only are the occupants that today, will he please drop me a note? killed or maimed, but the vehicle is a write-off. Compare When the procurement of the Jackal—or M-WMIK, that with the record of the Mastiff: only one early as it was initially known—was announced, it was agreed version was lost due to a fire, and although there have that it would be good for special forces. Too much been injuries sustained in explosions, nobody has yet emphasis, however, was placed on the David Stirling, been killed. [Interruption.] I shall come to something world war two concept when equipment acted as the else in a minute—I am making a point now. The Oxford predator, whereas the Jackal, by being used for general Mail reported last Tuesday that four local soldiers—I duties, has now become the prey. I remember a discussion believe that they are from Bicester—escaped injury on Radio 1 in which a young Territorial Army private when their Mastiff hit a mine. One of them, Captain infantry soldier who had just returned from Iraq took Fletcher, was quoted as saying that the Mastiff afforded on a sergeant who was extolling the Jackal’s brilliance great mobility across the desert terrain of Afghanistan by explaining the faults with the vehicle. What listeners and, despite its weight and size, afforded unrivalled were not aware of was that the TA private soldier was in protection. The vehicle was able to drive away after the civilian life an engineer working in force deflection, and explosion under its own power—compare that with the in the TA he was a “pioneer” dealing with explosives. fate of the two soldiers killed recently in a Jackal in the The 200 Jackals in service, and a further 110 Jackal 2s, very same area. have again highlighted the failed concept of bolting on armour, as proved by the American Humvee vehicle. Mr. Ainsworth rose— Can the Minister confirm how many Jackals have been lost, because some reports suggest the number is as high Ann Winterton: May I continue? Again on Monday, as 20 per cent. of those deployed in Afghanistan? the Minister with responsibility for defence equipment The whole protected vehicle fleet is, in General Dannatt’s and support, who has returned to his place, praised the word, unbalanced, because if we add to the vehicles Coyote and the Husky, which is likely to be another that I have previously listed the Coyote, Viking, Tellar useless and death-threatening procurement. However, and Warthog, then compared with the 306 Mastiffs, he was right about the Wolfhound, which should prove 157 Ridgebacks, 90 Wolfhounds and 24 Bushmasters, to be good news. I find it so distressing to hear lavish blast-absorption vehicles with added armour vastly praise being heaped upon the procurement of vehicles outnumber blast-deflection vehicles which have their that are potential death-traps and to listen later to defence built into the original design of the distinctive expressions of condolence to the families of those who V-shaped hull. have perished in them. Just as the Buffalo was originally condemned by the Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I know that the hon. Lady studies MOD but is now being purchased, I hope that the this issue and always tries to bring some thought to it, Department will look again at the new version of the but she must accept that we cannot put all our people Cheetah, which has been developed by Force Protection into the same kind of vehicles. We have to give them a and was recently shown to members of Congress on range of different vehicles of different sizes. We have to Capitol Hill. I fully support the efforts of South Carolina try to mitigate the effect of using a smaller vehicle, and Congressman Henry E. Brown to promote this MRAP that can be done only to a degree. The main protection vehicle to ensure that both British and American soldiers 467 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 468

[Ann Winterton] trade-offs that have to be made. It is important that we have hon. Members willing to dig down into the detail are properly protected. I am also convinced—Ministers and track procurement decisions. My hon. Friend has might be interested in this—that Force Protection vehicles done a signal service in holding Ministers to account on could be turned into successful half-tracks if greater the issue, and that is how Parliament should work. manoeuvrability was required. My cousin, Captain Ferguson, was ambushed when The Secretary of State is quoted in this month’s riding in a Stryker vehicle. It is well regarded by the US Soldier magazine as praising the new American military army, but that did not stop him being nearly killed when direction, which includes the cancellation of their equivalent it was hit in Baghdad. One of the soldiers in the vehicle of the future rapid effect system—FRES—project and was killed and the young soldier sitting next to him was suggests that we need a similar readjustment in the UK. badly wounded. My cousin was lucky enough to survive Perhaps the UK has accepted that concept in principle, and the vehicle was able to drive away from the ambush. but it certainly has not yet done so in practice. My cousin’s presentation was a remarkable story of I will end by quoting again from General Dannatt’s 15 months in Iraq, in 2007-08, from a platoon commander speech at Chatham House. He said: in the US army. It was particularly instructive to hear “We must ensure we do enough to succeed and simply not how much of the US concept of operations in Iraq had enough to fail”. become more like the British one—in terms of hearts Although I am delighted that General Dannatt has and minds, and living alongside the community in changed his views since he took office, the danger is still which they were operating in order to draw intelligence that we are not changing fast enough—not just in terms from it and take the fight to the terrorists. One can only of vehicle procurement, but in many other areas. When reflect on that change and what happened to the British we talk about the budget today and future budgets, I forces in Basra—there was almost an inversion of roles would remind the House of the amount of money that over the last six years. has been wasted on equipment and vehicles that have Rather more sombrely, and again involving what I not been fit for purpose. If those disastrous decisions would regard as my family—my former regimental had not been made, more resources would be available family—on Saturday, Lance Corporal Nigel Moffett to spend on what the soldiers fighting in Afghanistan became the first fatality of the Light Dragoons in need now. operations in either Iraq or Afghanistan. The regimental family of a regiment the size of the Light Dragoons is 4.25 pm quite small. There are only about 400 or so serving in the regiment at any one time, and that fatality brings Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): I concur with the home the pain and pride in the sacrifice made by Lance remarks that have been made so far on the timing of Corporal Nigel Moffett. today’s debate on the day of the European and local elections. I am sure that the Ministers would agree, if I did not know Lance Corporal Nigel Moffett. I left they were allowed to say so. There is nothing to add to the regiment a rather long time ago now and he joined it the chorus of condemnation of that choice. in 2003. In reading the tributes paid to him by his commanders, his contemporaries and his father, one is However, it is two days until the anniversary of the struck by and able to visualise the sort of character that 65th anniversary of D-day and that is another reason this young man was. I want to take this opportunity to why I have chosen to speak in this debate. I am proud draw on those tributes and to try to give the House the that my uncle, Major-General Tony Richardson, is president sense of the sort of young men and women who are of the Normandy Veterans Association. I am delighted serving our country on operations today. His squadron that the Prince of Wales will attend the celebrations. sergeant-major, of C Squadron, the Light Dragoons, The issue was sadly mishandled and the Ministry of Sergeant-Major David Rae, said in tribute: Defence failed to appreciate the importance of the 65th anniversary. Given the presence of President Obama, “My first memory of Moff was of a young lad about to learn it would have been better if Her Majesty the Queen his trade in Bovington. Even at an early age he was not convinced his aspirations would be met in the regiment he was allocated; were to attend, but at least the Prince of Wales is going. instead he wanted to serve as a reconnaissance soldier. I am also delighted that my uncle had the opportunity I would see him daily with a 50lb…pack on running the to take his grandson, Captain Max Ferguson of the US training areas to become fitter and stronger than those around army, to visit the beaches a week or so ago. The hon. him. I enquired as to why he was training so hard whilst others Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon), who is no longer in were enjoying the freedom gained from leaving Basic Training, his her place, and my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield answer was simple, ‘I want to be a ‘recce’ soldier and I need to (Michael Fabricant) attended a presentation by Captain convince them I am going to be one’. These words and his Ferguson, my cousin and godson on his 15 months in dedication had me wishing if only every young man had this zest Iraq as an infantry platoon commander, commanding a for soldiering and this commitment to their chosen career. He was granted his wish and joined The Light Dragoons. troop of Stryker vehicles and some 40 soldiers— Again we crossed paths when I assumed my position as Squadron Ann Winterton: I attended too. Sergeant Major. Moff was more experienced having been on tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, and unbelievably, fitter and stronger than when we first met. He was the Squadron Physical Training Mr. Blunt: Indeed, and I listened with interest to my Instructor, and to a man, we all paraded under him for PT with hon. Friend’s remarks about military vehicles. I commend more than a little apprehension of how we would fair under his her campaign and the attention she has given to the ‘training’. issue. It is right that Ministers should be put on the spot Moff took no prisoners and never eased off, regardless of how for the decisions that they have to make, although I hard people were blowing and regardless of what rank they were. acknowledge the difficulty of those decisions and the The Legion”— 469 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 470 that was the nickname of C Squadron the 13th/18th the debate contained important reflections on the conduct Royal Hussars when I was in it, and is now the nickname of our operations in Afghanistan. Afghanistan and of C Squadron, the Light Dragoons— Pakistan cannot be taken separately. At the strategic “expected nothing less than a professional approach from him level, they must be dealt with together. There are obviously and we all benefited hugely from his expertise.” particular problems about our ability and capacity to His commanding officer, Lieutenant Colonel Gus give direct help in Pakistan, as my right hon. Friend the Fair, who has a special forces background, said: Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Defence Committee, made clear. “He relished his role as a Physical Training Instructor and was However, in a sense, and in strategic terms, Pakistan is a always the first to volunteer for a course or adventurous training. His dedication, fitness and sheer enjoyment of his work marked much more important entity than Afghanistan. The him out as a star of the future and a role model to the junior threat from Pakistan’s weapons of mass destruction, soldiers. the size of its population, and the size of the British He died at the top of his game and showed all the potential of Pakistani population—given that I am shadow Minister realising his ambition of serving as a badged member of UK with responsibility for counter-terrorism, I am only too Special Forces.” aware of the domestic issues in that regard—mean that However, it is his father’s tribute that is the most moving: Pakistan is much more important than Afghanistan, but they are very much linked. “Nigel felt he was prepared for operations in that he was well trained and had the right tools for the job. Both he and his family On Afghanistan, I want to reinforce what my hon. understood that ultimately he could die although we didn’t want Friend said about localism; he referred to the this to happen. Ultimately, Nigel was a soldier.” provincialisation of policy there. That is extremely This week, we have had almost a fatality a day. The important. Due to issues of geography and ethnicity in fact that Lance Corporal Nigel Moffett has as part of Afghanistan, a central authority has always struggled his regimental family someone who has ended up in the to exercise authority in a comprehensive way over the House of Commons is purely a coincidence, but the whole country, and if that is the model that we are tributes paid apply to all the soldiers who have died over trying to follow, we simply will not succeed. It would the past week and the perhaps more than 300 soldiers—I appear that we are learning, albeit all too slowly, about do not know the numbers—who have died in Iraq and the methods that will achieve our objectives. Last year I Afghanistan serving our country since 2003. We should was lucky enough to see the young officer cadets of the also not forget that for every fatality that we mark at Afghan national army being trained by British forces in Prime Minister’s questions by naming these soldiers—now, Kabul. As has been said in this debate, the training and seemingly, every Wednesday—rather more seriously mentoring—effectively the creation—of that army is wounded soldiers are coming back from theatre whose gradually emerging as an important success. lives will be completely dominated by the experience Of course, that sits alongside the catastrophic failure that they have suffered serving our country. of the training and development of the Afghan national Of course, in addition to that, we are seeing just the police. It is the Afghan national police with whom the tip of the iceberg, in terms of the psychological average Afghan is in contact daily. Certainly when I was consequences for soldiers who are taking part in operations in Afghanistan a year ago, their corruption, criminality, of an intensity perhaps unseen in large parts of the ineffectiveness, inefficiency and the rest appeared to be second world war, despite their coming from a country making a more negative than positive contribution to that is effectively at peace. We, as a country, obviously our potential success in the conflict. I was struck by the have to pay our debt and make sure that soldiers who parallel that my hon. Friend drew with the Charge of have been wounded seriously, physically and psychologically, the Knights operation, and there does appear to be a are supported properly. parallel, given the Americans’ entry into the southern We also owe the soldiers who are serving us something part of Helmand province and the Prime Minister’s else. I shall now make, as gently as I can, a rather indication, which my hon. Friend quoted, of a change serious political point. The Americans are seriously in the nature of the British role in Afghanistan. We reconsidering their strategy in Afghanistan. That has should be involved in an informed way in those negotiations, important implications for how we conduct our operations so that we can see what they mean in terms of the in Helmand province. Our forces in Helmand province number of troops who are committed, and for our are being joined by a large number of US forces as we future commitment to, and concept of, British operations speak. Sadly, whatever the merits and capabilities of in Afghanistan. It is difficult to be a part of those Defence Ministers, we have a Government and a Parliament negotiations, however, when the country is in political that have lost their authority, and there is now a serious limbo and the future of the Government is uncertain. requirement. If we are to discharge our debt to soldiers The Secretary of State’s speech also contained some who are fighting and dying for our country, we must important reflections. He answered my intervention—up regain the authority of the Government and the Parliament to a point—about the balance of resources between the that those soldiers serve. In the circumstances, that can Department for International Development, the Foreign be done only by the people giving a new mandate to a and Commonwealth Office and the Ministry of Defence new Parliament and Government. I hope that Ministers in contributing to reconstruction, to reconciliation and and people more widely will reflect on the fact that right to rebuilding failed states. However, he did not quite get now, we in Government and Parliament are not giving around to saying this: conflict is probably the most the quality of leadership that we should give to those important driver of poverty, and, if we cannot address men and women serving on our behalf. conflict, we cannot address poverty. The speech made by the shadow Defence Secretary, We will have to look seriously at the balance of my hon. Friend the Member for Woodspring (Dr. Fox), resources and compare the money that DFID appears and the speech with which the Secretary of State opened to have with that which the Foreign Office and the 471 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 472

[Mr. Blunt] fellow citizens who are serving their country are fighting and dying for us. I do not think that Parliament has MOD have to devote effectively to defence, diplomacy, distinguished itself with the choice of timing for a infrastructure building, state building and everything debate on the contribution that those people are making. else. There is a complete imbalance between the interests of the people whom we are trying to serve, not least in their simple relief from poverty, and the very much 4.47 pm wider set of British national interests that must be Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): I echo my secured in the states that we seek to help. hon. Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) and The Secretary of State introduced an interesting join the chorus of disapproval for the lamentable state discussion about cyber-security. From the words that he of this debate and its timing. used, he appeared to talk about the MOD’s responsibility I invite the House to reflect on what we face at this to secure its own information technology, but, given the moment in the Afghan conflict. I have in front of me capacity for a cyber attack, from a state-sponsored hit the Op Herrick casualty and fatality tables, issued by all the way down to terrorists trying to attack the DASA—Defence Analytical Services and Advice—up information technology that controls key parts of our to halfway through May. I shall not dwell morbidly on infrastructure and, even, to the lone hacker, we must the numbers, but this year is likely to be worse than last have a better discussion of cyber-security. year. The rate of casualties this year so far is higher Particular thought must be given to, and an examination than at the same point last year; on the current trend, made of, the MOD’s role and responsibility for securing we will have more casualties this year than in any year civil national infrastructure, because, if information since the conflict began. The fact that there is only a technology systems were attacked from outside by whatever handful of colleagues from both sides of the House in source, there would be crippling consequences for the this debate sends a lamentable message about how United Kingdom, as, indeed, there would be for any much the House cares about the issue. That is not a country. We, as a nation, must decide who will take criticism of right hon. and hon. Members; as we know, responsibility for that. Currently, the lead appears to be a very great many, if not all, care deeply about the sitting inside GCHQ, but that comes with a whole matter. However, given that the Chamber is so empty variety of compromises in respect of how public it will this afternoon, there is something wrong with the be in providing that defence. On that issue, there is an mechanism used to discuss these things. important debate to be had. Mr. Bob Ainsworth rose— I listened with wry amusement to the remarks about Bernard Gray’s expected report on reorganising Mr. Jenkin: I see the Minister itching to intervene. procurement. I could not help but have a sense of déjà vu about the issue, because the idea that we must be able Mr. Ainsworth: I have listened to the stream of criticism to do procurement a great deal better appears to have from Members about the timing of the debate, and I been a constant over decades. From my examination of understand people’s anger. However, let us reflect on the issue during my 15-year association with it in one our own responsibilities for the situation. There are lots way or another, however, I have been struck by the fact of Members from both sides who spit before someone that the United Kingdom appears to do defence gets the word “modernisation” out of their mouth. We procurement rather better than many—indeed, the majority have a system in which we have five defence debates per of—other nations. I do not know whether we are still in year on the Adjournment and nobody from the various such a position in the global league table, but I am parties is prepared to get together, make suggestions slightly suspicious of a proposal to rip up all our and talk constructively about a better way. It is a defence procurement arrangements and of the idea disgrace—but it reflects on us, and we ought not to that, if we replant them slightly differently, we will throw the blame elsewhere. achieve the golden objective of producing the most Mr. Jenkin: I was not throwing blame; in fact, I was efficient set of such arrangements in the world and save trying to avoid that. ourselves a vast amount of money. Systems can always be improved, but I wonder whether a revolution in the We must change the current system, and I have some defence procurement process is necessary. I hope that suggestions to make. We have not had a debate on a when Mr. Gray produces his report, it will be looked at motion on Afghanistan since Op Herrick began. If carefully—and sceptically, because there have been many there were a debate on a Government or Opposition efforts in the field, and not all have improved matters motion as to whether we support the current policy in significantly. Afghanistan, I am sure that a great many colleagues would attend and take part. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence I have a suggestion for my right hon. Friend the (Mr. Quentin Davies) rose— Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Defence Committee. It is our job Mr. Blunt: If the Minister will forgive me, I shall not as a Select Committee to sit down and discuss how give way. I want to conclude my remarks, as two Members defence issues are debated and scrutinised in the House wish to speak before the winding-up speeches begin. as a whole, and we could make recommendations about I began my remarks with a personal reflection about whether there should be some changes. For example, my family and my wider regimental family, and I want should the five debates be on debatable motions tabled to finish by saying that we must not forget the enormous by the Government in order to find out whether the contribution made by our servicemen and women. That House had confidence in the aspect of policy under is why I am horrified at the circumstances and timing of discussion, thereby allowing the Opposition parties to this debate. It is about a very important subject; our table amendments and divide the House on them? 473 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 474

There is another disadvantage to these very broad counter-insurgency far faster than we ever imagined it debates. When we come into the Chamber, we think would. We have to stop pretending that we in the British that we are going to discuss defence in the world, and Army do it much better than everyone else, because the then hear announcements about equipment, points raised Americans have caught us up and may even be overtaking about spending on research and development, and tributes us in their capability to deliver it. paid to individual servicemen. It is too broad and There is hope, but I remain sceptical about whether unfocused, and a debatable motion might improve the large formations of foreign military forces will work in focus. a country where the foreigner is regarded with great I am afraid that I am going to ignore Iran and North suspicion, especially if he arrives carrying powerful Korea, Russia and Georgia, Somalia and piracy, and all weaponry and destructive power. I am sceptical about the other issues challenging global security. Having long whether the big American surge will solve the problem. called for a debate on Afghanistan alone, I shall concentrate There are two more reasons for that, one of which is on what is going on in Helmand and what flows from it. stated in the Government’s own paper on Afghanistan The question that must preoccupy us is whether more and Pakistan. Page 9 of that paper, in section 3, foreign troops in Helmand would break the deadlock. I “Afghanistan—thecurrent situation”, states: “The solution would hazard three reasons why that might not be the remains political”. Although there are other factors, the case. I somehow doubt that more kinetic effort, more problem has been the political failure in Afghanistan, to bombs and bullets, more helicopters, more knocking on which I tried to draw the Secretary of State’s attention—the doors in the middle of the night to try to find the failure in Kabul, the failure of the Karzai Government, terrorists, more civilian casualties, and more alienation the Bonn constitution and the western-imposed Afghan would not lead to more insurgency. national consensus, and the corruption of that Government. It is tempting to believe that the strategy pursued in The Government’s paper continues: Anbar by General Petraeus, which empowered the Anbar tribes to take charge of their own security, in co-operation “Governance is beset by corruption and lack of capacity, with the American military forces and the emerging which is compounded by the lack of security. The combination of insecurity, poverty, lack of good governance and social and Iraqi forces, might be replicated in some way in Helmand. economic development, and perception of widespread corruption”— However, that is to misunderstand the very different nature of tribal society in Helmand compared with that that word again— in Anbar. Anbar was firmly anchored in an established “deepens the challenge of persuading the people to back their nation state with a strong sense of national identity—Iraq. government over the Taleban…the insurgency has not been delivered That national identity exists to some degree in Afghanistan, a decisive blow”. but the tribal loyalties are far stronger, and, in the case Clearly the surge in operations in Afghanistan is an of the Pashtun tribe, span its borders, as they reach into attempt to deliver that decisive blow, but it seems to me the ungoverned tribal areas of Pakistan. Pashtunistan unlikely that it can be delivered by military means. It is a country that exists in the minds of everybody who must be delivered by other means—by binding in the lives there—it is just not drawn on the maps that were tribal structures that exist in that strong society in left by the British empire. The Pashtuns have very Afghanistan and recognising that the authority of the strong tribal traditions. Pashtunwali is the honour code Kabul Government simply does not, and never will, that requires someone to avenge the death of one of extend into the outreaches of that extraordinarily disparate their kinsmen, which means that the effect of civilian country. Governance has to arise from the strength of casualties is perhaps 10 times more corrosive than in the local communities and cannot be premised on some Anbar. The conduct of counter-insurgency operations abstract constitution that was written at a conference in therefore has to be 10 times more careful to avoid Bonn with a substantial part of the Pashtun tribe civilian casualties than in Anbar. simply not represented. There is cause for optimism, because I believe American policy is shifting and developing. My hon. Friend the My other reason for scepticism is that the pivotal, shadow Secretary of State quoted General McChrystal, decisive strategic engagement has shifted out of Afghanistan who has been nominated the American commander in and is taking place in the Swat valley. That seems to be Afghanistan and who has said: where the weight of Taliban power is concentrated. It is where they are based and from where they launch their “If defeating an insurgent formation produces popular resentment, operations. The war in the Swat valley may be the the victory is hollow and unsustainable”. conflict that turns the war in the whole region, in He went on to say: Pakistan and Afghanistan. “This is a critical point. It may be the critical point. This is a struggle for the support of the Afghan people. Our willingness to operate in ways that minimise casualties or damage—even when Mr. Blunt: My hon. Friend is correct. However, until doing so makes our task more difficult—is essential to our military operations are properly co-ordinated across the credibility.” international border, the effect could be that the Taliban I put it to my hon. Friend the Member for Reigate who do not wish to stand and fight against the Pakistan (Mr. Blunt), who served with the Light Dragoons, that regular army are pushed out of the Swat valley, go to that sentiment would be familiar to any soldier who southern Afghanistan and head off to engage with our served in Northern Ireland. Counter-insurgency is about forces in Helmand and other coalition forces in Kandahar. tying one arm behind one’s back to observe legality, Proper strategic co-operation is needed, so that if the proportionality and rigid discipline to a strategy. It is Pakistani army conducts such an operation, it at least about ensuring that the tiniest things do not get blown beats the Taliban over the international border into, for up into huge strategic problems. That is extremely difficult, example, the prepared ambush positions of Afghan or and I believe that the American army has learned coalition forces, as appropriate. 475 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 476

Mr. Jenkin: I agree with my hon. Friend to some Ten million pounds is not a great deal of money, extent, but even he is dealing at a sub-strategic level. Mr. Deputy Speaker. As a country that has an That leads me to my next point about the importance of extraordinarily close relationship with Pakistan, we could Pakistan. leverage the American effectiveness hugely, if only we I commend the Government for including Afghanistan devoted more resources and people to what the Americans and Pakistan in the same document, although we were are trying to achieve, but we are simply not doing it. I slightly playing catch-up with the Americans, who were do not know what special forces may or may not be already on that track. However, Pakistan is crucial. doing in Pakistan, and that is not something that I There are 800,000 citizens of our country who have intend to ask the Minister about. However, what we are Pakistani origin. [Interruption.] The Minister says that providing, in terms of our official armed forces personnel there are probably more. However, thousands and in Pakistan, our diplomatic mission and our overseas thousands of untraceable exchanges and movements aid effort, and in our military-to-military relationship, between Pakistan and our country are a direct security is pitifully small. Pakistan is a friendly country, but threat to our streets, towns and cities. what is coming out of Pakistan is the main threat to our country today, and we are spending a pitifully small The part of the document that assesses the current amount on confronting that threat. situation in Pakistan refers to the “severe challenges” facing the Pakistan Government, the sharply deteriorating Finally, the third grand strategic point for the United economic situation and the aftermath of the Mumbai Kingdom in considering the topic of defence in the attacks. It states: world is this. If we are to be a country that contributes something substantial to our security, and if more “This shocking event reflected the wider problems Pakistan faces with violent extremism and terrorism. Al Qaida continues to troops are needed in Afghanistan and the Americans operate in the FATA… Afghan groups also train and plan attacks are sending more, what will be the consequence of our on international and Afghan targets in Afghanistan from the being unable to do so or simply refusing to do so? What FATA.” will be the consequence of our simply not providing the The document goes on to refer to the resources that our security requires in the region? “separatist insurgency continuing in the province of Baluchistan” We also have the Basra parallel in Helmand—a point and makes the crucial claim: that I was going to raise in my speech, but which several of my right hon. and hon. Friends have already raised— “So far, however, there are no signs that terrorism or violent whereby we have failed to deliver what our closest ally extremism in Pakistan are decreasing.” felt entitled to expect at the outset, namely a relative Until we address that problem, how will we tackle proportion of the effort, willpower and sustainment to others? deliver that sense of solidarity. For everything that our I have mentioned in the House previously my concern brilliant armed forces achieved in Basra, we left behind about the disproportionality of our effort. We are putting a feeling that we had not pulled our weight. For all the so much effort into Afghanistan, yet so little into Pakistan. sacrifices that our armed forces made, what a terrible I am encouraged by the Americans’ determination. The tragedy that that should be the feeling in much of section of their paper entitled, “Assisting Pakistan’s Washington and much of the American military capability to fight extremists” states: establishment, and the same looks to be happening in “It is vital to strengthen our efforts to both develop and Helmand. With 17,000 US troops coming into Helmand, operationally enable Pakistani security forces so they are capable against our 8,300 to 8,500—I acknowledge that we are of succeeding in sustained counterterrorism and counterinsurgency putting in the extra 700 for a temporary period—how operations. In part this will include increased U.S. military assistance will we be entitled to our share of command? How will for helicopters to provide air mobility, night vision equipment, we be entitled to take credit for whatever is achieved? and training and equipment specifically for Pakistani Special Operation Forces and their Frontier Corps.” I know that those are political points, but we are underselling our influence with our most important Bravo to the Americans! They are providing the capability ally. So much of what we do in defence and security that will give the Pakistani military the confidence and policy is about maintaining influence over the one the capability to tackle the modern threats instead of country that guarantees our defence and security. If we preoccupying themselves vainly with the non-threat of lose that influence, we will lose the leverage that this India. country, uniquely in the world, has an opportunity to How does that compare with what we offer? On page use, and not just to the benefit of this country, but to 13, the Government’s document, under the heading the benefit of Europe and the whole world. I am talking “The UK’s strategic objectives”, states that we will help about the ability to broaden the American perspective Pakistan and encourage the Americans to bring more people “achieve its vision of becoming a stable, economically and socially with them, rather than finding themselves fighting on developed democracy and meet its poverty reduction targets” their own. We must address that, but to do so we need and encourage to address our entire defence and security policy, as my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Defence Committee “constructive Pakistani engagement on nuclear security and non- said. We need to ask ourselves what sort of country we proliferation.” really want to be. Those are laudable aims, but to what do they add up Whichever Government are in power, we will fight when dealing with the crunch problem? The document our way through this period of stringent financial controls states: as a result of the recession and getting our debt back “In December… we announced our largest bilateral programme under control. We will get through that, one way or of counter-terrorism support and capacity-building, worth”— another. We need to nurse our defence forces through wait for it—“£10m.” what will be a difficult period, but what will we be 477 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 478 aiming for at the other end? Will we be aiming to be the and a whole range of other things. They could provide power that can project military force throughout the helicopters, for example. However, I do not see much of world, fight alongside the United States and maintain that happening. its influence in the forums of the world because we will I hope that, in highlighting this issue in my brief maintain our nuclear deterrent and have aircraft carriers, contribution to the debate, I can persuade the British strike aircraft and the breadth of technological capability Government to bring pressure to bear, through their that means that we can interact and fight on a global contacts, on the other European countries in NATO to basis? Or are we going to become just another passenger deploy ground troops. We cannot expect only the United on the American aircraft carrier, with little say and little States, the United Kingdom and some of the smaller influence over an increasingly unstable world that threatens countries of Europe to do so. the safety and prosperity of our citizens and the people we represent? We have been feeling pretty sorry for ourselves Mr. Blunt: It is easy to criticise our European partners throughout the expenses crisis in the past few weeks, in this matter, but we should remember that the authors but I invite right hon. and hon. Members to reflect on of this strategy were the British Government. When the the fact that there are people who are facing far greater right hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (John Reid) challenges and dangers and far more pain than we are. was Defence Secretary, he thought it appropriate to In the end, we are letting those people down by asking deploy NATO in this fashion—as it is deployed in them to take on global challenges without having a Afghanistan—and he drove that policy very hard. I do policy to match those tasks with the necessary money not think that our European powers were wildly enthusiastic and political will to ensure that they succeed. about it, which has now partly been reflected in the quality of their contribution. We did not get the strategy sorted out at the beginning, so the hon. Member for 5.11 pm Colchester (Bob Russell) is effectively reflecting on one of the consequences of that failure. Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): The international community is preparing to commemorate the 65th anniversary of D-day, but in Colchester, a much fresher Bob Russell: This is a NATO exercise as far as I am and more raw anniversary will be marked next week. It concerned, and the consequences of whatever goes wrong will be the first anniversary of the deaths of the soldiers in Afghanistan are exported to mainland Europe as of the 2nd battalion, the Parachute Regiment in well as to the United Kingdom. Whatever the background Afghanistan. I want primarily to talk about Afghanistan as to why we are where we are, I want to make my point this afternoon. I see no change from a year ago in the as strongly as I can. support that we are getting from our European allies. I have already mentioned that it is European election On this European election day, perhaps I can be a bit day today.Every Army married quarters in my constituency Eurosceptic for once. A year ago, 16 Air Assault Brigade, is located within the Maypole Division, and there are which is based in Colchester, was in Helmand province. military families living in St. Michael’s, Montgomery Ten soldiers from 2 Para lost their lives, and the brigade and Drury Meadows estates. I want to put on record the lost more than 30 in total. fact that within the last 24 hours, leaflets have been Last autumn, at Prime Minister’s questions, I challenged distributed there saying that Liberal Democrat policies the Prime Minister about the need for more of our include European allies to deploy ground troops in southern “Establishing a Single European Army”. Afghanistan. The Ministers on the Front Bench today will know that I have raised this issue on other occasions That is simply not true. I do not blame Conservative as well, including as recently as this Monday at Defence Members who are here, as they did not put the literature questions, when I asked the Secretary of State: out, but it did go out in the name of their party. When we are talking to military families, I believe that we “Will the Secretary of State list the countries in the European Union that have deployed ground forces to southern Afghanistan?” must be 100 per cent. factual: it is wrong to deceive, mislead or whatever. Those families have enough issues He replied: on their plate without being told untruths of that sort. I “Yes, I will: Romania, the Netherlands, Denmark, Estonia and do not support a European army. It is quite clear from Belgium”.—[Official Report, 1 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 13.] what I have said that we want European collaboration He went on to say that France was flying fast jets in the and support, which is a world of difference away from south of Afghanistan, but my question was about ground having a European army. forces. I believe that all of us are united when we participate Let us pay tribute to Romania, the Netherlands, in defence debates in the House. Through my involvement Denmark, Estonia and Belgium for deploying ground with the armed forces parliamentary scheme on two troops. However, that answer highlights the failure of occasions and my membership of the Committee the other European nations in NATO that talk the talk, considering the Armed Forces Bill, I have sensed that but do not walk the walk when it comes to southern there are far more areas of common agreement than Afghanistan. What are France, Germany, Spain, Italy disagreement. Of course there are some disagreements, and Poland doing? They are big countries, but they have but everyone here today is, I believe, broadly of the not deployed ground forces to southern Afghanistan. If same mind and united in our support of Her Majesty’s there are constraints on those countries—constitutional armed forces. I pay tribute to them, and to the increasing reasons, perhaps—that prevent them from deploying role played by females. As Members may have gathered troops, they can still assist in other ways. They could from the question that I put to the hon. Member for assist with security measures, medical support, logistics Bridgend (Mrs. Moon), I draw the line at females being 479 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 480

[Bob Russell] are also some of the people who are least dogmatic about the methods that one can adopt to deal with in the front line of the infantry. That is not to say that terrorists and insurgents. they should not be in the front line in many other In his book “The Accidental Guerrilla”, which has respects, but I am sure that my point is well understood. just been published, Dr. Kilcullen says that in many As I indicated by my question to the right hon. cases the people against whom we find ourselves fighting Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), would not have taken up arms against us had we not the Chairman of the Defence Committee, I also pay gone into their countries in the first place. That is a tribute to the role played by soldiers—some airmen and message that one gets from all parts of the House, sailors, but predominantly soldiers—from the although it is at the same time acknowledged that Commonwealth, and I would like to conclude by drawing sometimes, even though such fighting is a consequence the House’s attention to early-day motion 1516. It pays of our having had to go into those countries, we had tribute to Lance-Corporal Johnson Beharry, VC, who little alternative. However, as Dr. Kilcullen stresses, we Members may recall was subjected to a vicious verbal should do so only as a last resort. attack by the British National party, which questioned I have pointed out previously that there are some his heroism. The early-day motion rebuts those wicked similarities between orthodox political campaigning and words of attack on him. It says: the methods used by terrorist groups, albeit not in the “That this House...is proud that HM Armed Forces comprises moral dimension. There are at least five principles that men and women from all ethnic backgrounds, from the UK and terrorist groups adopt. I shall quickly list them. The the Commonwealth, plus Gurkhas from Nepal; notes as an first is: historic fact that people of all racial groups served, and lost their “always fight on ground where you are strongest and your opponent lives, fighting fascism in the Second World War and thus helped weakest”. to preserve this country’s freedoms against such evils; deplores the use in BNP election literature of a false photograph of a The next two are: British soldier, with false quote, claiming support for the BNP; “always seek maximum impact for minimum effort” and urges the Government to ensure that the British people are made fully aware that the BNP represents the views which Britain and went to war to defeat.” “try to manoeuvre your opponent into a situation where he is damned if he does, but damned if he doesn’t”. It is appropriate to quote that early-day motion on the day of the European elections, and when the House is That is precisely what I described in relation to the discussing defence in the world. reaction, in the case of Afghanistan, when an attack was mounted against the American homeland from a country in which it would be difficult and bloody to 5.20 pm intervene. The last two principles are: “use your opponent’s own weight to drag him down (‘military Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East) (Con): I begin by jiu-jitsu’)” congratulating the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob and Russell) on what he has just said. I was proud to sign his “apply these methods simultaneously and repeatedly”. early-day motion and I would like to reassure him about one thing. I do not know what the parliamentary To a large extent, the methods adopted by the Americans term for “scum” is, but when people such as those in the and the British have been to try to use conventional British National party behave in the way he described, military power against such unconventional enemies. we can be all the more reassured about how right we are We need to try to avoid being bled dry, however, in a to condemn, oppose and disrespect them and all their form of warfare that involves fighting on the enemy’s works. I only hope that, despite all the provocations strongest ground, not ours. Of the many wise words in from Westminster to our constituents, they nevertheless Dr. Kilcullen’s latest book, which I commend to Members have the maturity and good sense to do the same to the in all parts of the House, he says: BNP in the elections today. “In military terms, for AQ— However, in the spirit of partisanship, which I cannot al-Qaeda— entirely resist, I say to the hon. Gentleman that if it “the ‘main effort’ is information; for us, information is a ‘supporting were not for the Liberal Democrats’ policy of proportional effort’…Thus, to combat”— representation, the prospects of the BNP leader entering al-Qaeda— the European Parliament would be much smaller. “propaganda, we need a capacity for strategic information warfare—an In March 2008 I had the privilege of giving a joint integrating function that draws together all components of what presentation—I must stress that I was very much the we say, and what we do, to send strategic messages that support junior partner—to a group called First Defence, of our overall policy.” which I was the parliamentary chairman. The presentation was entitled “Counter-Insurgency in Principle and Practice”. Mr. Jenkin: Quite right. I was talking about some of the principles of counter- insurgency, but the person everyone came to listen to Dr. Lewis: I am glad my hon. Friend says so. Dr. Kilcullen was Dr. David Kilcullen, who was talking about his continues: experiences in practice in Iraq. “Building such a capability is perhaps the most important of One of the most important points about people such our many capability challenges in this new era of hybrid warfare.” as Dr. Kilcullen—who was, among other things, a special It has been difficult for colleagues to get to grips with adviser to General Petraeus and subsequently to a subject as broadly defined as defence in the world. I Condoleezza Rice—is that the architects of what we entirely agree with the suggestion by my hon. Friend the hope will be the ultimately successful strategy in Iraq Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) that such debates 481 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 482 are too broad in nature. My view is that the older market itself did not come into existence until 1957. I concept of the single-service debate concentrated the do not think that there was any appreciable diminution minds of hon. Members, and concentrated the subject in the threat of western Europeans fighting each other matter in the context of the various campaigns in which after 1953, or even 1957, than there had been between we were involved or likely to become involved. 1945 and 1953 and 1957. What really matters is whether the individual countries of Europe have democratic Mr. Jenkin: Traditionally, in the past few decades, we political systems. If they do, they will not fight each have conducted such debates in peacetime. We are now other, and if they have NATO, it is to be hoped that debating a war, and it is absurd that we include it in a they will not have to fight anyone outside their boundaries general debate about defence policy. It does not make either. sense. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hampshire (Mr. Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Select Dr. Lewis: I accept that point, but even in the context Committee, drew attention to the horrific prospect of a of debating a war, it would be better not only to have black hole in the defence budget. I have pointed out specific debates on the specific combat parameters but before, and I will point out again this evening, that we specific debates on the individual services. Otherwise, are in a strange situation. The defence budget as a we will see reflected in the debate the internecine conflict proportion of GDP has remained constant both before going on between those at the most senior levels of the and after the beginning of the wars in Afghanistan and armed forces. My hon. Friend the Member for Congleton Iraq, which can only mean that we were fighting two (Ann Winterton)—who has carried out a very focused counter-insurgency campaigns at one stage, and are campaign about armoured vehicles and their fighting one counter-insurgency campaign now, on what inadequacies—has touched on that issue, too. She referred is effectively a peacetime defence budget. That really to the change in the nature of warfare, and to a particular cannot go on. speech that, she said, meant that we must move away Let me say this in the last moments allocated to me. It from preparation for conventional state-on-state warfare is normally quite difficult to sum up a debate because towards configuring the main effort of our armed forces there have been so many contributions. By the end of for the type of wars in which we are engaged today. this debate we shall have heard six speeches from the I have raised that subject previously at the Dispatch Conservatives, including the two from the Front Bench. Box, and in my opinion people from particular armed That is more than we shall have heard from the other services who take that point of view are going up a two parties put together. There will have been three blind alley, and a dangerous one at that. Although it is speeches from Labour Members, and two from Liberal terribly important to be able to configure our forces to Democrats. That is not the way in which we should be fight counter-insurgency campaigns, and absolutely vital debating the most important defence matters of the to ensure that we give our forces the resources to fight year. them effectively, we must never lose sight of the fact As no one is listening, let me conclude by sharing a that the primary role of our armed forces must be to confidence with the House. I actually rather like and insure against the possibility that in 10, 20, 30 or 40 admire the Defence Ministers who have been appointed years we might face an existential threat to the peace by the Government, and I know that they probably did and freedom of our homeland. I for one do not subscribe not want the debate to be held on this day any more to the view that we must dismantle our ability to deter, than anyone else did. The question is: who did want and if necessary combat, another state armed with that, and why? To hold a debate of this sort on a day modern weapons systems that could threaten us in the when everyone is voting in elections suggests either a future, just because for the foreseeable future we do not calculated insult or a complete disregard for—or think that threat will arise. The lesson of the past, misunderstanding of—the importance of the subject whether the late 19th century, the first half of the 20th matter. I know that the Ministers will have done their century or even the post-war conflicts of the second best, but who was responsible? Was it the Chief Whip? half of the 20th century, is that when such threats Was it the Prime Minister? I think we should be told. materialise, the vast majority have not been anticipated.

Nick Harvey: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 5.33 pm The Minister for the Armed Forces (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): Dr. Lewis: I am afraid not, because I have three Despite the lack of density on the Benches, we have had minutes left. Please forgive me. our usual wide-ranging, thoughtful and informed debate. I was impressed by what the hon. Member for Bridgend The Secretary of State opened it with a review of (Mrs. Moon) said about the past role of Porthcawl and current operations, and a more detailed account of the the massing there for the D-day invasion. I have heard evolving threats that we face and his response to them. I similar stories about my home town, Swansea. Swansea shall make a few comments on those issues, and then try bay was the home of the second wave of the invasion to respond to all the points that Members have made. armada. No part of the water could be seen, so packed We cannot afford to ignore the lessons of current was it with the vessels that were about to sail across the operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. We must capture channel. and institutionalise them. The integrated military and I was somewhat less impressed by what the hon. Lady civilian structures that we now have on the ground in said about the European Union keeping the peace. I Helmand have developed the hard way. We need to use must point out to her that the European Community, in them as a blueprint for how we do things in the future, the form of the European Coal and Steel Community, not in theatre but in Whitehall and in the international did not come into existence until 1953, and the common context. That is why we in the MOD, together with our 483 Defence in the World4 JUNE 2009 Defence in the World 484

[Mr. Bob Ainsworth] Royal Navy is holding the ring for us and is providing some mitigation, but the problems of Somalia are the colleagues in the Foreign Office and the Department for cornerstone of the issue. International Development, lend our full support to the Defence Committee’s inquiry into the comprehensive Mr. Jenkin: I just wish to make it clear that I am sure approach. I believe that the Committee, chaired by the that the rules of engagement reflect the legal advice that right hon. Member for North-East Hampshire has been given, and that I make absolutely no criticism (Mr. Arbuthnot), can make a valuable contribution, of the commanding officer of the ship involved, but will and may be able to help us all to drive the policy a little the Minister explain what is wrong in law with detaining further. someone who clearly has all the paraphernalia of piracy and is, circumstantially at least, exhibiting a threat? Looking ahead, we also need to ensure that, despite This seems inexplicable. The law must be deficient in the economic challenges, we get the balance of decisions this regard, and it must be changed even if we need a right so that, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of UN resolution in order to be able to do so. State said, we can “stretch, surge and recover”. There are two elements to that. First, we must understand the Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, but whose law needs to be changed? capability mix that we need in order to fight both We have to take these steps while accepting what the present conflicts and those we may face in the future. Kenyans are prepared to do for us and being enormously We must not be starry-eyed about the options open to grateful to them for their efforts. Let me say, as I said at us. We do not have the scope that the Americans have to Question Time, that I have no intention of allowing the flex budgets from hybrid warfare to conventional warfare. Royal Navy to be used as a taxi service for asylum We have to get more out of our equipment and we must seekers—that will not happen while I am Minister for have flexibility from our people—we have that—and we the Armed Forces and if that means that we have to set must use it to the full. We must also think across the full people free off the coast of Somalia, we will do so. We range of our responsibilities. Secondly, we must ensure will do what we can in the circumstances. that our own financial controls and acquisition structures help rather than hinder our efforts to drive down costs The hon. Member for North Essex said that he and deliver timely capability. I think that Bernard Gray’s thought our attitude to the American capability on report will be a very good starting point for the work counter-insurgency was arrogant. I do not see that that we need to do on that. arrogance in our military and I do not believe it exists in the body politic in this country either; there is great Finally, we need to make our international institutions respect for the work that was done first by General as effective as possible. We need to make them relevant Petraeus in Iraq and which is now preached by General to the public they are supposed to serve. The UK must McChrystal in Afghanistan. Huge leaps have been made work with our partners to drive forward reform in the in capability and doctrine from the American military. international sphere: in the United Nations; through a We must recognise that, and we buy into it totally—we new strategic concept in NATO, the cornerstone of our need to work alongside them. defence; and by strengthening the European Union’s The hon. Gentleman and the Chair of the Defence ability to play the role that it undoubtedly can. Committee talked ably about the complexities involved I understand why many Members throw their hands in the border area between Afghanistan and Pakistan, up in frustration—or in downright antagonism—whenever and said that much more needed to be done. I do not Europe is mentioned, as it can be frustrating, but we detract from that at all, but we need to understand that cannot hope to counter the threats of today on our Pakistan is a sovereign nation, it has its own priorities own. We must persevere in building flexible solutions and red lines and it is a very important player in this rather than fuelling bureaucracy.I believe we have managed circumstance. We have to work with the Pakistani this well in the anti-piracy operation off the horn of Government and not attempt to impose something Africa, where we have provided command and effective unacceptable on them. co-ordination not only for our European partners, but My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs. Moon) for many other nations as well. is a new member of the Defence Committee, and I thank her very much for her effort and the work that she The hon. Member for North Essex (Mr. Jenkin) is putting in on that Committee. She lamented the lack discussed the rules of engagement for piracy and why of recognition that there is for our armed forces. I pirates were released recently by the Royal Navy. That genuinely believe that there has been a phenomenal was not down to a lack in the rules of engagement; we improvement in that regard over the past couple of have flexed the rules of engagement to make absolutely years, which is much welcome. It is deeply welcomed by sure that our people are able to counter the threat of the people at the hard end—those who do the fighting piracy, but we also have to respect the fact that we are and the dangerous work on our behalf. Sadly, as many getting a lot of assistance from Kenya. It is happy to in this House recognise, she is right to say that a take people to where we have the evidence to prosecute recognition of their amazing capability and the amazing them, but we should not—we must not—abuse the people that they are does not transfer to the level of hospitality, as it were, given by the Kenyan nation. understanding that we need among our population Therefore, where evidence does not exist, we need to be about the issues with which our forces deal. We all have sensible and disarm and destroy inappropriate equipment a duty and a responsibility to try to work on that and and be prepared to set people free. The kinetic element improve that understanding. is only part of the structure being put in place to My hon. Friend responded to a question from the counter piracy, and of course I accept that it cannot be hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who later dealt with purely within the maritime environment. The raised the issue again, on women in close combat. We 485 Defence in the World 4 JUNE 2009 486 are reviewing the issue and we will do so without they should stop spitting every time the word prejudice or precondition. The situation is not simple “modernisation” is mentioned and be prepared to work because there is no simple front line. We have women with others to put the defence debates on a better who are involved in logistical operations—supply lines footing. If there were a genuine cross-party attempt to and so on—in Afghanistan and they have effectively do that, it would be successful. involved themselves in close combat, because they are obliged to do so. As we review this, we must take into Dr. Fox: It is clear to anyone who has followed the account the complexities of the warfare that we are debate that the complaint has not been about the number fighting and the fact that female members of our armed of debates, but that the Government business managers forces are, from time to time, in the thick of it, alongside purposely put this debate on today, polling day, when a their male counterparts. I do not think that we can have minimum number of Members would be present to take a politically correct situation on the one hand, or have part. It was also squeezed by a topical debate, so that prejudice on the other. We have to be objective as we one of our full defence debates—on some of the most undertake the review. important issues, including Afghanistan—was allowed The hon. Member for Colchester also raised the issue four hours in the parliamentary year. That is a disgrace. of the despicable literature—there is cross-party consensus in the House on its nature—from the British National Mr. Ainsworth: The hon. Gentleman is being party about Johnson Beharry, and I am glad that he did disingenuous. He and his party pushed for the topical so. I am not free to sign his early-day motion, but if I debates. If we are to be genuine about this, we need to was, I would rush to the Table Office to do so. accept that if we want five debates on defence on the Adjournment, there will be consequences. If we wanted Mr. Blunt: Next week, Bob. to change that, we could—

Mr. Ainsworth: That soon! Ann Winterton: Will the Minister give way? I have agreed to finish my speech shortly, and I am Mr. Ainsworth: No, I am about to conclude. I will aware that I have not managed to reply on all the issues. respond in writing to Members whose points I have not The hon. Member for North Devon (Nick Harvey) managed to address. I know that the hon. Lady has recognised the huge improvements to vehicles that have asked me to do that on one particular issue. been made, but he was very concerned about helicopters. We will soon have a Merlin free to go to Afghanistan, While we plan for the future, our focus must always and before the end of the year we will have eight and rightly remain on current operations in Afghanistan. Chinook too. There has been a massive increase in the Our people are fighting and, sadly, sometimes dying to number of hours of helicopter availability, but we can bring stability to that benighted country. They are entitled never have enough helicopter lift and I accept that we to expect 100 per cent. support from everyone in defence, need to do all that we can to provide it. Government and industry. That is the very least that they deserve. Mrs. Moon: The Opposition have claimed that no Question put and agreed to. one was listening to this debate. I can advise my hon. Resolved, Friend that I have already received an e-mail from a That this House has considered the matter of defence in the gentleman who does not live in my constituency, a world. veteran from Penzance called Mr. Brian Jenkins—not the Member with the same name. He served in the Business without Debate armed forces between 1969 and 1971 and he has been following the debate today. I am sure that many others BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE also have. Ordered, Mr. Ainsworth: I thank my hon. Friend for that That, at the sitting on Wednesday 10 June, paragraph (2) of information, but in response to the many hon. Members Standing Order No. 31 (Questions on amendments) shall apply to the Motion in the names of Mr Elfyn Llwyd and Angus Robertson who have complained about the timing of the debate, I as if the day were an Opposition Day; and proceedings on the must point out that we all share a responsibility for Motion may continue for three hours or until 7.00 pm, whichever failing to work together. If people are unhappy that we is earlier, and shall then lapse if not previously disposed of.—(Ian have five defence debates on motions for the Adjournment, Lucas.) 487 4 JUNE 2009 Safeguarding Children (Private 488 Schools) Safeguarding Children (Private Schools) It also found: Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House “There are sufficient suitably qualified and experienced staff to do now adjourn.—(Ian Lucas.) teach most areas of the curriculum satisfactorily”. In 2006, there was a further inspection, which again found that St. Peter’s 5.49 pm “is a good school and is successful in its aim of providing a good Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) (Lab): I am all-round education for pupils with a wide range of abilities. grateful to have secured this Adjournment debate on an There is outstanding provision for the personal development of” important subject. It is perhaps appropriate that it children. It found: should take place on a day when there are local government “The overall welfare, health and safety of pupils are satisfactory. elections, as a tier of local government deals with education. The school maintains a high level of care for pupils”, It is precisely that that I want to talk about. and The subject of the debate is a general one—the “The school has due regard to the safety of the pupils. Policies safeguarding of children in private schools—but I will are comprehensive and include procedures for child protection, draw on a specific example in my constituency, which is anti-bullying strategies, First Aid, health and safety issues and the case of St. Peter’s independent school. The aim of fire safety.” this debate is to call on the Government to give children It also found that the school met most of the requirements in private schools the same level and type of protection for registration. That was in November 2006. as children in state schools; to ask the Government to close a loophole that leaves directors of children’s services Just 18 months later, some constituents came to see unable to intervene in independent schools to protect me expressing concern about events at the school—first the welfare and safeguarding of children in the same one parent, then two, then a group. Their concerns were way as they can intervene in state schools. Children about educational issues, about some issues relating to should have the same safeguards whatever type of school school resources and facilities, such as problems with they are in and those powers should be exercised locally cleaning and furniture in the school, and about some by the local authority, which has overall responsibility specific allegations of unacceptable or inappropriate for protecting the safety of children in that local authority behaviour. Those were the matters of real concern to area. me. Whatever the educational issues—parents are entitled to make choices about the type of education that they I am not going to go into all the events surrounding want for their children—the allegations about behaviour St. Peter’s, despite the protections that this Chamber seem to me to be absolutely straightforward. They provides. There are children studying at that school and should have led to the relevant people being suspended, their interests have to be regarded. There are also children be they students or staff, so that investigations could be in my constituency who were former students at the carried out according to a proper, established, recognised school and their private interests must be regarded, too. procedure so that remedial action could be taken and I also want to stress that this is not a matter of private things could be put back on course. That is the kind of schools versus state schools. Many independent schools thing that many of us have, unfortunately, seen happen have very good practice in child safety and well-being, in our local authority education or children’s services. It as they have in education. There are also associations is not a sign of great success, but it is a sign that there for independent schools that provide support and advice are safeguards in place to deal with problems when they in these important areas. Those factors were all well arise. documented in Roger Singleton’s excellent review of safeguarding arrangements in independent schools. Let me indicate the nature of the allegations made. I do not want to go into all the details, but they were of The problem that I want to identify and focus on is children being hit; of children having their personal what more is needed to ensure that there are proper information disclosed in front of their class; of children safeguards in place for the small minority of independent being left in classrooms with a video camera on them in schools that fall through the net, and where standards the absence of a teacher; of a girl being made to change are not acceptable to ensure that any problems can be in one of those classrooms with the video camera on; dealt with quickly and locally. Although I am drawing and of the arbitrary and inappropriate punishment of from an example in my constituency, that issue is also of children. There are more, quite substantial, allegations wider concern to directors of children’s services in other of that type. parts of the country. On taking up my constituents’ complaints, I found In the case of St. Peter’s, the lack of proper safeguarding that a police-led inquiry into the allegations had already arrangements and the lack of powers to allow the local been set up, involving local agencies including the local authority to intervene have had serious and continuing education authority and a representative from the school. consequences for some of the children and, indeed, for As it turned out, that representative was a trustee who their parents. I would argue that much of the delay in was involved with a local firm that had acted on behalf dealing with the problems, because of the lack of adequate of one of the members of staff about whom allegations powers to be operated at a local level, has made the had been made. The firm is also now involved in legal situation more acute for everyone concerned. action against some of the parents. Back in 2000, an Ofsted inspection of St. Peter’s found: I spent a considerable amount of time in the summer of 2008 trying to find a way forward for my constituents, “The school has many strengths and few weaknesses; it provides and that included a lot of discussions with colleagues at a good education.” the Department for Children, Schools and Families Significantly, it found: here in Westminster. Eventually—and it was eventually— “The school has a brief but adequate policy on child protection.” Ofsted agreed to conduct a further inspection. In addition, 489 Safeguarding Children (Private 4 JUNE 2009 Safeguarding Children (Private 490 Schools) Schools) the Charity Commission set up an inquiry into the trust The problems for the family who made the complaints that owns the school. I also spoke a number of times to continue. Those who took their children out of the Ministers in the DCSF and, of course, extensively to school, or had them excluded due to the events surrounding the director of children’s services in Northamptonshire, the allegations, are being pursued by the school for as well as to the police and other agencies. I have to say repayment of fees, despite the fact that the children that getting action on this matter was one of the most were sometimes removed due to events that were well difficult, frustrating experiences that I have ever had. outwith the parents’ control. One family was taken to Despite the obvious concerns of my constituents, at court after they removed their child. They lost their every turn the argument was that no one had the power case, the school was awarded costs and the family to do anything. In particular, and probably most declared themselves bankrupt and lost their home. importantly, the local director of children’s services did Another family are being taken to court, and the not have the powers to act that he would have had if St. discussions are that their child might be called on to Peter’s had been a local authority school. give evidence about events that a child would not normally So what was the result of all the complaints? When be expected to give in open court. Basically, it is evidence the Ofsted inspection report came out in September about an indecent assault, and it seems wholly inappropriate 2008, it found that even to consider trying that in court as part of a debt “St Peter’s Independent School does not meet all the regulations recovery action. A third family are also in the early for independent schools, and in particular the overall provision stages of having legal action taken against them, and a for pupils’ welfare, health and safety is inadequate. This is primarily number of others have settled privately after their children because safeguarding procedures are inadequate. The failure to were excluded. properly safeguard pupils means that the overall effectiveness of the Early Years Foundation Stage is inadequate.” It seems that this is a very unsatisfactory conclusion to a very poorly managed sequence of events. First, real It listed 30 recommendations that the school had to questions must be asked about why Ofsted was so lax in follow to meet the standards required for independent finding the difficulties at the school, and why it needed schools. Among the shortcomings found by Ofsted was so much persuasion to undertake the necessary investigation the fact that although all the staff, with two exceptions, to put in place an action plan to resolve the problems. had been subject to Criminal Records Bureau checks, a For example, how in 2000 did it find: number had not been vetted at the required enhanced level. The chair of governors had not carried out all the “The school has a brief but adequate policy on child protection”; necessary checks on board members, and there was not and, in 2006, that there was robust enough checking of staff, including those who “due regard to the safety of pupils. Policies are comprehensive”; had lived outside the UK, before they were appointed. but then make, in 2008, a whole list of recommendations The child protection policy was not up to date, for the action that would be needed to bring safeguarding comprehensive or implemented effectively. There were policies up to standard? other criticisms, too. It also seems completely inexplicable that in 2000 A notice was served on the school requiring it to Ofsted should find: produce an action plan. That is now being progressed, “There are sufficiently suitably qualified and experienced staff and there has been a further report from Ofsted, which to teach most areas of the curriculum satisfactorily,” was quite supportive. The Charity Commission’s report on its investigation into the school found shortcomings but then that the school does not even have a process for in the workings of the trust that runs the school. Those properly CRB-checking staff to the right standard, and shortcomings included the fact that the trustees that it does not necessarily vet staff properly before it gives them jobs and allows them to teach at the school. “did not manage the risks arising from the allegations and complaints” It is also wrong that events that take place in respect made by parents, had failed to comply with the commission’s of a school cannot be prosecuted because they are out first directive, and had provided the commission with of school time or take place on a school trip. It is even misleading information, although they later co-operated worse if events take place on a school trip—when the and had been working to put things right. school is acting in place of the parents. If they take The police finished their report and passed a file to place in the UK, at least the children can speak to their the Crown Prosecution Service, which decided not to parents in the evening. It seems completely wrong also prosecute. However, the CPS, in a letter to me, concluded: that such events should be immune from any other form “The allegations of assault amounted to incidents which would of investigation or sanction. be categorised as common assault for the purpose of charge. This is significant as charges of common assault have to be brought One reads in the paper complaints of teachers having within six months of the date of the alleged offence. All of the their careers ruined because of false allegations of assault, allegations which, in my judgement, amount to allegations of and they are extremely worrying, but, equally, it is assault fell outside that six month limit. Furthermore, one allegation important that there are procedures for dealing with of assault was said to have been committed on a school trip in allegations of behaviour that might fall far short of France, taking it outside the jurisdiction of the English Courts.” criminal conduct but breach rules for professional conduct. They might require not prosecution but some local 6pm sanction—for example, in the school, through training Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). or improvement, or through measures to deal with the Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House children’s behaviour, if that is the problem. It is also do now adjourn.—(Ian Lucas.) wrong that the problems had to escalate to the point at which prosecution was even considered; I would have Ms Keeble: I thought that that the sub judice rule was thought that behaviour in schools would be of a far about to be raised, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because I had higher standard. Such problems should certainly not be mentioned something that might be before the courts. allowed to persist. 491 Safeguarding Children (Private 4 JUNE 2009 Safeguarding Children (Private 492 Schools) Schools) [Ms Keeble] result of their children’s complaints. They have been left on the sidelines, with significant and substantial problems The parents should have been able to get their complaints to deal with as a result of what happened in that school. dealt with quickly. If the school was not prepared to I would not want any other group of parents, or deal with them, they should have been able to get indeed any other MP, to have to be in a position of prompt local action. As it was, things had to be escalated knowing that things have gone wrong in a school and so that they were dealt with by Ministers and Ofsted, that nobody is prepared to step forward and say, “I have which, obviously, has a vast array of other schools and the power to sort this out.” Instead, it is divided around issues other than safeguarding to deal with. In this a whole range of different agencies, and it takes, as in instance, it was required to do things that properly this case, many months to resolve problems which, if should have been done at the first stage by the local the local authority had the power to do so, could have authority. been dealt with much more quickly, to the benefit of the Furthermore, it is wrong that national intervention children, the teachers and the parents in surrounding was needed by not only Ofsted but the Charity Commission. areas who might want to send their children to that Our local children’s services director knew about the school. I urge my hon. Friend to ensure that this loophole problem. He had extensive dealings with it and knew is closed and that all children, whatever type of school what type of resolution was needed. However, he was they attend, are given the same safeguards by law. completely powerless to act, short of removing all the children from the school. That would have been completely Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. counter-productive and probably open to legal challenge. Before I call the Minister to reply, let me say to the hon. Since all this happened, the Government have Lady, who feared at an earlier point that I was going to commissioned a review by Roger Singleton to consider correct her on the matter of sub judice, that as a safeguarding arrangements in independent schools, non- significant part of her speech related to a particular maintained special schools and boarding schools. I have establishment, it might have assisted the House if that contributed to the review. Its recommendations have had been reflected in the title that she chose for her been largely accepted by the Department for Children, debate. Schools and Families, which will consult further on proposals in September. I urge the Department and the Minister to plug the loophole in the legislation to 6.11 pm ensure that local children’s services directors have the power to intervene on safeguarding issues in independent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, non-maintained special schools and boarding schools, Schools and Families (Sarah McCarthy-Fry): I congratulate to protect the welfare of children and make sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North the powers given to children’s services directors under (Ms Keeble) on securing this debate. I know that she the Children Act 2004 extend to independent schools as has campaigned strongly on this issue, and it is clear much as to state schools. from her speech that she considers the safety and well-being of children and young people in her constituency an In respect of private schools, children’s services directors absolute priority. need to be able to intervene on the basis of allegations, to investigate and to make recommendations that must I am sure that we would all agree that those concerns be followed to put in place the required changes, just as about safety extend across both sides of the House. As they can in state schools. They also need to intervene on Members of Parliament, as a Government and of course the governors or trustees of private schools, just as they as a society, we all recognise that our first priority must can with state schools, to make sure that those people always be to keep children safe. Of course, that responsibility are held properly accountable for the safeguarding extends to all school pupils, whether they are in the arrangements, welfare and well-being of the children. independent or the maintained sector. As I am sure my hon. Friend knows, all independent schools must be It is completely wrong that one set of rules on child registered with the Department for Children, Schools safety and protection should apply to state schools and and Families. As a condition of this registration, and another set to independent schools. The safeguarding indeed continued registration, they must meet the standards of children is rightly seen as a matter for the local we would expect of any school in the maintained sector. community. The local community, through the local Those standards include the quality of welfare provided authority and its children’s services, should have the to children and the extent to which they protect the power to protect all children, whatever type of school health and safety of each and every child in their care. they attend. They should also have the power to make In 2007, the Government introduced the guidance, the process transparent for the public, so that people in “Safeguarding Children and Safer Recruitment in the wider local community can understand what is Education”, which maintained and independent schools happening and see the safeguards that are put in place. are required to comply with. It sets out employers’ State schools have become accustomed to being named duties and responsibilities with regard to child protection, and shamed, and that can be a scarring experience for including working to locally agreed procedures for dealing any school. However, it is now understood that the with allegations, and the involvement of police and wider community is entitled to a certain level of information other local agencies. It also sets out the need for all staff about what happens to children in a school, and it is to undertake child protection training and for schools important that there should be the same transparency to have a designated child protection officer. In short, to the wider community at independent schools as there when a parent opts their child out of the maintained is in state schools. The constituents who came to me do sector, they do not opt out of their child’s right to a safe not get information about what has happened as a education. 493 Safeguarding Children (Private 4 JUNE 2009 Safeguarding Children (Private 494 Schools) Schools) As I am sure my hon. Friend will appreciate, it is not improved for the school to remain registered and, as she appropriate for me to comment on individual cases of told us, they described safeguarding procedures as teacher conduct or specific allegations against staff. “inadequate”. They found, for example, that the child However, I can say without hesitation that there simply protection policy was out of date, that proper Criminal is not one rule for the maintained sector and another Records Bureau checks had not been carried out and for the independent sector. Local authorities have the that not all staff had been properly vetted. Clearly, that same powers to intervene in relation to state and was totally unacceptable. However, it is important to independent schools. If there is any particular issue that note that Ofsted found that on a day-to-day basis pupils she is concerned about, I will be more than happy to were generally well cared for, and that children described meet her to discuss it further. behaviour in the school as good. I am pleased to say that the school appears to have Ms Keeble: That is absolutely contrary to everything taken the report seriously. Following statutory notice to that everybody has said, including several of my hon. improve, action has now been taken. As my hon. Friend Friend’s colleagues, right the way through the whole is aware, inspectors returned to the school at the end of process. It has always been said, and it has been said April this year and their report confirms that the school again this evening by the children’s services director, has now addressed those earlier safeguarding failings. A that local authorities do not have the power to intervene. copy of their report has been sent to the school, which will no doubt examine it and further address the inspectors’ Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Then I can only reiterate that if findings. It is worth mentioning that like maintained the advice that I have been given is incorrect, I will be schools, many independent schools are inspected by more than happy to discuss the matter with my hon. Ofsted every three years, and we will always respond to Friend. any complaints about the school in question. St Peter’s school is no different from any other in the I hope that I have been able to provide some reassurance sense that neither the Secretary of State, the local that safety nets are in place to help protect children in authority, the police nor social services has the power to independent schools, but this is not in any way, shape or force a school to suspend a teacher pending investigations form a matter on which this Government are remotely of abuse. The power to make that decision rests with the complacent. We are more determined than ever to make management of the school alone, and any change to the this the safest country in the world for all children to status quo would require a change in the law. However, study in, regardless of their background. That is why we as I have already said, there is a statutory obligation on are introducing, through the Safeguarding Vulnerable every school, regardless of whether it is maintained or Groups Act 2006, the toughest possible vetting and independent, to ensure the safety and well-being of its barring system for all those working, or seeking to pupils. Inspections of independent schools follow exactly work, with children and vulnerable adults. It is why we the same processes as those of any other school, to have made CRB checks mandatory for all new ensure that those obligations are met. It goes without appointments to the school work force, and why we saying that any school that fails to meet the required commissioned Sir Roger Singleton to review safeguarding standards can be deregistered. arrangements in independent schools. I am aware of my hon. Friend’s concerns about the Sir Roger’s report was published in March, and the trustees of St Peter’s, but their actions are a matter for Secretary of State immediately accepted every one of the Charity Commission to consider. Our concern has his 32 recommendations, which included ensuring that to be first and foremost to ensure that children learn in all boarding schools are properly regulated; providing a safe environment. We rely on local authorities and greater support for independent schools to help them Ofsted to judge whether arrangements are in place to improve safeguarding practice; improving information allow that to happen. Councils have the lead in deciding sharing and schools’ self-evaluation of safeguarding what safeguarding arrangements need to be made locally, performance; and strengthening the relationship between so in the case of St Peter’s school it is up to schools and their local safeguarding children boards. In Northamptonshire county council to decide what should addition, Sir Roger has made it clear that he wants to apply. see school proprietors make arrangements for annual, It is critical to note that there should never be any independent scrutiny that would challenge their schools’ question of a child’s safety being threatened. Local safeguarding policies and practice. authorities will always have the power to remove any A report of that scrutiny will then be made available child from a situation in which they might be threatened, to the Department, as a further means of strengthening regardless of whether that is in an independent or those checks and balances. I know that officials are maintained school. Of course, any parent whose child is already working on amending the appropriate guidance at an independent school and who is worried about and legislation in the light of those recommendations. their safety will always be given the option of taking up It is encouraging that Sir Roger’s report seems to have a place at a maintained school. I shall come later to been received so well by independent schools as well as further measures that we are taking to improve safeguarding local authorities and Ofsted. arrangements. It is worth mentioning the role of the Charity My hon. Friend mentioned Ofsted. I am aware, of Commission, to which I referred earlier. As a registered course, of the concerns that the agency raised in its charity, St. Peter’s—and many other independent schools inspection of St Peter’s last year, to which she referred. like it—is answerable to the commission. The organisation She also mentioned previous Ofsted inspections. Inspections launched its investigation into the school in February, are valid only at a particular point in time, and in our and expressed several serious concerns about leadership experience things can change rapidly. Last year, inspectors and the trustees’ stewardship of the school. Consequently, highlighted a number of key areas that had to be it issued a direction to the school to undertake a 495 Safeguarding Children (Private 4 JUNE 2009 Safeguarding Children (Private 496 Schools) Schools) [Sarah McCarthy-Fry] is in place, safeguarding procedures have been strengthened and efforts have been made to improve school buildings comprehensive governance review of the charity, including and clean them. Perhaps most important, all staff in the the development of a risk management strategy relating school have now been subject to an enhanced CRB to child protection. As I understand it, that was to check to confirm their suitability to work with children. include staff training as appropriate. I know that the I am sure that much of that is down to my hon. commission has since been very positive about the way Friend’s hard work and persistence. Like her, the in which the trustees of St Peter’s have accepted the Government set the bar at nothing less than absolutely challenge. I believe that the school has taken on board parity of safety and well-being for every child in this all the commission’s regulatory advice, guidance and country.That applies not only to those from disadvantaged recommendations. backgrounds or from poorer areas. It applies to all I know that some concerns remain about the progress children, from all walks of life, at all schools. that St Peter’s needs to make, with Ofsted highlighting Question put and agreed to. key areas that need to be addressed, including careers guidance and pupil assessment. However, the school now appears to have turned a corner following the visit 6.22 pm that Ofsted inspectors made last year. A new leadership House adjourned. 135WH 4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 136WH

Surely he would agree that motoring, like many other Westminster Hall activities in life, can never be entirely risk free. He makes great play of the fact that there have been significant reductions in the past year and that fatalities are at their Thursday 4 June 2009 lowest level for many decades. Does he have a figure in mind for an acceptable number of deaths, given that [MR.JOE BENTON in the Chair] inevitably a balance must be struck between addressing what is obviously a risky undertaking and ensuring that there is relatively swift movement on the roads for the Road Safety many millions of our fellow countrymen who wish to Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting go from A to B? be now adjourned.—(Ian Lucas.) Jim Fitzpatrick: The hon. Gentleman makes a very 2.30 pm interesting point. We have been having a discussion in the Department, pressed on us by outside campaign The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport groups, about redefining what is happening on our (Jim Fitzpatrick): I am grateful for the opportunity to roads by saying that people are not having accidents; open the debate. It is a pleasure to see you presiding they are having incidents, crashes and collisions. That is over it, Mr. Benton. The subject of road safety has because analysing the incidents and the causes of deaths always attracted a good degree of cross-party consensus shows that the vast majority are caused by human and I do not expect participants in this debate to divide decisions: people not wearing seat belts, people speeding on party political lines, even though this is an election or people drinking or taking drugs. Those are conscious day. decisions that people are making, which are putting I begin by paying tribute to the hard work of the their own lives and other people’s at risk. That is not to dedicated professionals in local and national Government, say that accidents do not happen. A tyre can blow out. the emergency services and the private sector who have Something unexpected can happen, such as trees falling. reduced the number of serious crashes and mitigated We recognise that there is an element of danger in any their consequences. They have done that by improving activity, and driving is no different. However, we can road design, enhancing vehicle safety and improving affect human behaviour and introduce technology, which road-user behaviour. I also pay tribute to campaign I shall go on to describe—I am thinking of road engineering organisations such as the Parliamentary Advisory Council and car safety features—to bring down the number of for Transport Safety, led by Rob Gifford, and to bereaved deaths and injuries. families, who keep us focused on the key issues. However, Eight people a day are still killed on our roads. Tens although it is important to record our appreciation for of thousands in the course of a year are seriously the work that all those good people do, I do not want to injured. Their lives are ruined and their families have to dwell on past achievements. Today I want to talk about pick up the pieces. That is a social disaster, but we can our long-term vision for road safety in Great Britain. improve the situation a great deal if we take the appropriate We all have an interest in reducing the number of steps, and we have been doing that for many years and casualties on Britain’s roads and tackling the root causes particularly for the past 10 to 20 years. of a menace that still accounts for nearly 3,000 deaths a As I said, I genuinely do not see this as a party year throughout the country. That figure has been coming political issue. On one or two elements of the strategy—for down steadily in recent years. Indeed, the total number example, speed cameras—there are disagreements between of deaths and serious injuries is down by 36 per cent. in colleagues on Government policy. However, I think that the past decade and the number of fatalities in 2007 and those on the Front Benches are relatively well disposed 2008, for example, was lower than at any time for towards the use of speed cameras. There is cross-party 80 years. consensus on many of the issues. If we change the At the end of April, we launched a consultation on language so that instead of talking about accidents that our new long-term road safety strategy, which will come happen to people, we say that they are incidents that are into force in 2010. Although it draws on many important caused in the main by human behaviour, we shift the lessons that we have learned from the current strategy, it responsibility from society having accidents to individuals also sets out a fresh range of initiatives and ideas to causing crashes, collisions and incidents that kill either meet our future objectives. The proposed strategy starts themselves or other people. That switch of language is from the clear premise that despite recent successes, important. That is not to say that accidents cannot current casualty rates and particularly death rates are happen, but the vast majority can be prevented because still far too high. Although we have reduced the number they are caused by human behaviour. of serious injuries on our roads by 37 per cent. in the period covered by the current strategy, deaths have Mr. Field: Implicitly, the Minister understands that come down by only 18 per cent. If the next decade’s driving is inherently a hazardous activity and therefore, strategy is to be successful, we need to be bold. That is to a large extent, some accidents will genuinely be why the consultation sets out a long-term vision not accidents. He is right to refer to the lack of a seat belt, only to improve road safety, but to make Britain’s roads drunken-driving and massively excessive speeding. All the safest in the world. of those are factors in some accidents, but does he not agree that we will reach a level that might be regarded, Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) although we do not want anyone to die on our roads, as (Con): I appreciate that I have stopped the Minister in acceptable? I am talking about a point at which a lot has his prime, only two minutes into his speech, but he has already been done in all the areas that we are discussing, said that the number of deaths is still far too high. but there are still a number of deaths because of the 137WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 138WH

[Mr. Mark Field] I do not fully accept the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion. It may be the case in some investigations, but I have not intrinsic hazard that comes with driving. One of the seen evidence of it. We will obviously do all that we can dangers, whether this is in relation to individual freedoms to ensure that police investigate the causes of accidents that are being upset or the concern that I have often and are not simply looking to prosecute people—a expressed on speed cameras, is that too much is driven tick-box conclusion to the fact that somebody has died. by money raising, rather than simply safety aspects. In the long term, we are trying to make Britain’s roads the safest in the world. Our primary target for Jim Fitzpatrick: I am content to agree that we shall 2020 is therefore to reduce deaths by a further third. We never be able completely to eliminate deaths and serious realise that such a target is ambitious, but we believe injuries on the roads. However, we do collectively agree that it is grounded in reality—and, most important, is that the majority of deaths and serious injuries on the achievable. We also propose reducing serious injuries by roads—we can statistically demonstrate this—are caused 33 per cent. over the same time frame. deliberately, by people flouting the rules of the road or We acknowledge our moral responsibility to protect doing something that endangers themselves or others. children and young people, so we propose reducing Given that, there is an awfully long way to go before we annual road deaths and serious injuries among that reach a point at which we might start thinking that we group by at least half by 2020. Our progress on reducing cannot go much further. At the moment, we know that child casualties since 2000 was an improvement: we we can go further, because we can see the progress in reduced child deaths and serious injuries by 55 per cent. other European countries. from the previous baseline. However, that was for the However, having made the reasonable progress that nought-to-16 age group. Progress has been much less we have in the past 10 to 20 years, each year it becomes marked for the slightly older age groups, and we therefore harder to improve because, as we reduce the element of propose extending the target to cover 16 and 17-year-olds. risk—having improved our performance, whether by To meet those goals, however, we cannot rely on enforcement, road engineering, legislating or changing making lots of new laws, piling legislation upon legislation. human behaviour—we reduce the space in which Instead, our philosophy must be to concentrate on improvement can be made. We shall never completely improving the delivery of road safety, in particular eliminate deaths and serious injuries, but at the moment homing in on those roads, people and behaviours most we are nowhere near the position that the hon. Gentleman associated with casualties. describes. We need to tackle the hard cases. For example, to improve safety on rural roads, which carry only 42 per Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): cent. of all traffic but which see 60 per cent. of all road The Minister is right to say that this is not a matter for deaths, we propose to publish maps every year highlighting party political bickering. Does he agree, though, that the main roads with the poorest safety records, so that unlike cases of aeroplane crashes, in which the air highway authorities can take action with their partners accident investigation is aimed at finding the cause of to tackle those routes. the accident, in some cases the police may be a little We will also encourage the authorities to reduce preoccupied with finding a person to prosecute, rather speed limits on rural single carriageways, on a targeted than looking at some of the wider issues that may have basis—I repeat that it will be on a targeted basis; contributed to the accident? I tended to get into some difficulty with certain parliamentary colleagues who thought that we were Jim Fitzpatrick: I am not sure that I agree entirely. It proposing a blanket approach, but that was never the may well be that different investigations lead to different case—and we would be looking to reduce speed limits outcomes and are driven by different emotions at the from the current 60 mph national limit. time or professional stimuli. However, a thorough and The level of danger on those roads varies widely, and investigative procedure for each incident is needed to we want the authorities to reduce speed limits on those determine whether it was an accident or caused by roads that have the most crashes. We will continue to something that could be eliminated by Government encourage investment in improved highway engineering, action or changes that car manufacturers could be as it is clear that such schemes are continuing to reduce asked to make. casualties at relatively low cost. We also want local There has been a strong push from some road safety authorities to improve safety for pedestrians and cyclists campaign groups for road crashes to be taken out of by establishing 20 mph zones and limits in streets of a police jurisdiction and handed to the Health and Safety primarily residential nature. Let me make this clear: Executive. They take that view because a big factor in they will not be major through routes that happen to causing deaths on the road is fatigue among people have a few houses on them, but streets with the primary whose work is driving. It can often be demonstrated purpose of allowing access to our homes. These streets that they have been driving for too long and should are for living in, not dying in. Over time, we expect the have taken a break or been able to rely on a reserve shift to 20 mph limits in those streets to make walking driver. The Department has resisted that call. and cycling demonstrably safer, and to encourage people Notwithstanding the fact that they are accidents at to do more of both. work, we support the Home Office because we believe We will not only continue to work in partnership with that the police are better equipped more thoroughly to the motor industry to boost vehicle safety, but seek to investigate road crashes and have greater expertise to raise awareness of driver and passenger safety. We identify the causes. We can learn strong lessons from expect crash protection improvements to focus on particular police reports to coroners courts, for instance. problems or types of accidents, and we believe that 139WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 140WH advanced vehicle safety systems that help drivers and the country. That will allow drivers to take some refresher motorcyclists to avoid crashes will have the potential to training rather than receiving penalty points. They will reduce casualties significantly over the next decade. We therefore be able to avoid topping up points on their recognise that people make mistakes in all walks of life, licence. If double penalty points are introduced—we including on the roads, so we need to create a system have not yet come forward with our conclusions on where errors on the road are less likely to lead to death that—they will apply only to those who are recklessly or serious injury, and more sophisticated vehicle safety speeding, which would be 20 mph over the limit. That technology and safer road engineering will help us to would mean their driving at 55 mph or 60 mph in a meet the challenge. 30 mph area. Alongside these technological advances, improving We held discussions internally and with other groups behaviour will continue to be at the heart of our road when carrying out our informal consultation, and we safety strategy up to 2020; we will support more responsible found that it does not seem unreasonable for someone road use and tackle those who behave irresponsibly. who is doing 36 mph, 37 mph or even 38 mph to be Our consultation late last year on road safety compliance given a different penalty from someone who is doing set out a number of proposals to crack down on those 60 mph or 65 mph. The public are aware of that. The motorists who endanger not only their own lives but the only thing that seems to bring speeders to book is the lives of others by failing to adhere to the laws of the risk of losing their licence. We concluded, therefore, road. The proposals include higher penalty points for that accelerating that risk might also accelerate their reckless speeding and strong measures to discourage the move to more responsible behaviour. That is why we put utterly irresponsible minority who drive while under the that in the public domain. influence of alcohol or drugs. The police speeding awareness courses have been successful. I was a bit sceptical myself when I heard Mr. Mark Field: No one would want to defend the about them, but I have since read some comments from so-called rights of irresponsible or dangerous drivers. participants who went along thinking, “This is great. As the Minister rightly points out, the Government I’ve avoided a penalty. All I have to do is sit through this propose additional points for reckless or excessive for a day or two,” but who came out saying, “It’s speeding—perhaps as many as six for each such incident. changed my attitude to driving. It has really opened my Would it not be sensible, in conjunction with that, to eyes to the risk that I was putting myself and others recognise that for certain technical speeding offences—such through.” So the courses appear to be very effective. as driving only a few miles per hour over the limit, And they tie in with our attempt to create lifelong perhaps in the middle of the night, when there is not learning procedures for drivers. At the moment, if a 17, really any danger to other road users, and particularly 18 or 19-year-old passes their test, that is it for life. Fifty in relation to speed cameras—there should be something years later they might still be driving without having less than the standard three-point tariff? In other words, thought about the deterioration of their driving procedures. we should have a slightly more flexible tariff system, as We want to change that philosophy, culture and behaviour. regular drivers committing four relatively small technical Our approach, which we have considered very seriously, offences within a three-year period would, as the Minister fits in tidily with that. Those were our reasons for not said, automatically get a six-month ban. Surely Parliament’s introducing such a points system. intention was to have bans for the most reckless drivers. We will publish our conclusions to the consultation in the final version of the new road safety strategy. Jim Fitzpatrick: The hon. Gentleman again makes a Tougher penalties and better enforcement are potent fair point. We considered the matter carefully. It was weapons in the battle against speeding—a battle that suggested last year, before we published our consultation will be stepped up with the next 10-year strategy as we document, that we might give licence for reducing penalty seek to make speeding as unacceptable to mainstream points for those people who slip over 30 mph into an society as drink-driving has become. We have made excess speed. good progress in recent years, but far too many drivers Given that there are not many of us in the Chamber, still regularly break the limits. Illegal and inappropriate may I say privately that we recognised when considering speed was recorded as a contributory factor in 26 per the matter that flexibility was already built into the cent. of road fatalities in 2007. system to allow for people who just slip over the limit? Some self-styled “petrol heads”—there are none here, In addition, camera use is flexible and drivers can slip of course—argue that we are obsessed by speed and over a bit more. That is not the case everywhere, as that safety cameras are merely revenue-raisers. However, some cameras are set to a rigid limit, but in a number of the independent evaluation of the national safety camera areas people would have to be doing more than 34 mph programme found a 42 per cent. reduction in the number or 35 mph before being taken to task. of people killed or seriously injured at camera sites. If we were to allow drivers to slip over the limit, they That means that about 1,745 fewer people are being could be going at 38 mph or 39 mph—almost 40 mph—and killed or seriously injured per annum. still receive only two penalty points. “Think 30 for a reason”, a slogan that we all recognise and which is Mr. Field: Presumably, therefore, the Minister accepts promoted in our communities, would therefore be that 74 per cent. of accidents have nothing to do with undermined. The campaign says that there is a far speed. No one wants to encourage the most reckless greater chance of a child living if hit at 30 mph rather speeders, but speed cameras do not stop some of the than 40 mph. worst offenders—the unlicensed and uninsured drivers— The police are introducing speeding courses for drivers who can be a much bigger hazard. One of the problems as an alternative to penalty points. The courses have surely is that the erection of a speed camera often been successfully trialled and will be rolled out across comes cheek by jowl with a policy of the local authority 141WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 142WH

[Mr. Mark Field] aims to deliver real changes to the learning process, with improved theory and more practical driving tests. to reduce the number of police in an area. That makes This includes a new pre-driver qualification in safe road road conditions ever more hazardous. Presumably, among use for 14 to 16-year-olds. We have also recently launched many of those 74 per cent. of accidents not related to the new Think! education programme, and are publishing speed, there are unlicensed and uninsured drivers, who the first in a range of resources and materials for three should not be on the road at all. They might keep within to 14-year-olds and their teachers and parents. Taken limits, but none the less will be a hazard to themselves together, these materials will help us to provide a seamless and other road users. and thorough system of road safety training and development for life, so that we can foster a new respect Jim Fitzpatrick: Again, the hon. Gentleman makes for the road in the minds of the next generation of some interesting and good points. We are making good drivers and non-drivers. progress on uninsured and unlicensed drivers and those Throughout the consultation, which runs until mid-July, whose vehicles are untaxed. That is owing to automatic we will be genuinely interested to hear views from all number plate recognition cameras and the ability to quarters. It is especially important for all of us in cross-reference between the Motor Insurance Bureau’s positions of influence to raise awareness of road safety database and that of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing as a national issue. We can make our roads the safest in Agency. The police can catch these people without the world only through a shared aspiration to reduce having to be on the roads themselves. In recent years, death and injury rates and by persuading everyone to the proportion of people in the categories that he contribute. Our consultation proposes the publication mentioned has fallen from several per cent. to about of an annual road safety report and an independent 1 per cent. We are making very good progress and will advisory body. That will ensure that we have a discussion continue to bear down on that. that involves government, local authorities, police, schools We have always said—I shall return to this later—that and universities, car manufacturers and transport groups. speed cameras are a tool and ought not to be permanent, It will also involve parliamentarians, and I look forward and that their performance ought to be reviewed by to hearing hon. Members’ views. local authorities. There is no use in erecting a camera 2.58 pm and just leaving it. If behaviour in that area improves, the cost of running the cameras might be better used by Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I am grateful for the moving them to a different site. We have also made the opportunity to participate in this debate. It is a pity that point strongly that road policing is not stand-alone more people are not here—but I think we all know the policing. If somebody is insured or unlicensed, if their reasons for that. car is not taxed, or if they are not obeying other road I would like to reiterate some of the Minister’s comments. laws, they are much more likely not to be obeying the We have made many improvements in road safety in rest of society’s laws. recent years, and our track record compares extremely favourably with other EU countries with similar Police forces are now telling us that examinations of circumstances to ours. When I entered Parliament, I cars and individuals whom they stop for a road traffic was very aware of the many pressures facing local offence are leading to arrests for very serious offences, governments in prioritising funding, and yet I was including drugs trafficking, money laundering and gun extremely surprised by the number constituency groups possession—they might be found in the back of their campaigning for traffic-calming measures in their areas. car. That is a good way to bear down on the criminal My county council identified about 200 sites where fraternity, because if people are not obeying road traffic residents had requested measures to curtail speeding. laws, they might well not be obeying other rules. Using The problem is that, while walking around our communities, the national police statistics—I cannot remember the we want cars to go much slower. When we see people acronym of the relevant body—the police are tracking who are slow to cross the road being taken by surprise the types of road traffic offence for which they are by a speeding car, or children suddenly running out issuing penalty notices. In recent years, therefore, the inadvertently into the road, we can all appreciate why Department for Transport and the Home Office have we do not want drivers racing through built-up areas. been working together very closely. Technology has advanced so much that sometimes Our evidence suggests that, in addition to motorists the very same people who worry about speed in front of slowing down in the immediate vicinity of cameras, their own front doors inadvertently go above 20, 30 and they have been slowing down in the wider area. As for even 40 mph when they get behind the wheel in a revenue-raising, as far as we are concerned, the best built-up area. That is because driving is now so smooth. camera is the one that takes no pictures because motorists In my childhood, when we used to bounce up and down are sticking to the limits, improving the safety of the in the back of a very uncomfortable car—it was a bit whole community. We will support responsible road use like being on the Back Benches at Prime Minister’s by channelling our road safety messages through the Question Time with one’s colleagues jumping up and successful Think! brand, and by improving education down on very uncomfortable seats—a little bit of speed and driver training and testing. was very noticeable. Now, of course, a person can drive We also recently published the results of our learning at considerable speed without even noticing. to drive consultation, which was launched last year, and I welcome the Minister’s references to changing will now proceed with plans to strengthen the way in behaviour. Essentially, we have three options. We can which people learn to drive and are tested, and subsequently put in more and more traffic-calming measures, such as encourage a culture of continued and lifelong learning islands in the middle of roads, speed cameras and all for drivers. This long-term programme supports progressive sorts of markings and bumps; consider using snooper improvements. The first phase, over the next two years, technology that tells off drivers every time they go too 143WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 144WH fast, which I find offensive; or change our behaviour. a sign saying, “Do not kill our work force”. Such Those who talk about changing behaviour are often images are much more effective than a sign warning accused of being idealistic. However, our attitude to drivers to slow down at 40 mph when they cannot see a drink-driving has changed noticeably over the years. roadwork in sight. It is important to get that message Similarly, the once much-ridiculed smoking ban is very across. We should not be waiting for people to break much welcomed and accepted now. The same is true of speed limits and offend before we put them on training seat belts. Child seat belts were unheard of when I was a courses. The psychology must be there. We should start child, but no parent now would think of going out at school level by talking to pupils about road safety without having the car properly prepared for young and showing graphic images, and continue that through children. the process of taking a driving test. We need to keep up There are three categories of road to consider. First, that knowledge throughout life. All advertisers will say there is the urban road. In Wales, we have Assembly-funded how the effects of any campaign fade and people go programmes for calming the traffic in the immediate back to their old habits. We must look at ways in which vicinity of schools. I have to congratulate my own we can develop a society that says, “Although we have county council—Carmarthenshire—for having drawn the technological power to go at the most fantastic down considerable sums of funding to implement such speeds, that is not the best thing to do in most schemes. However, the urban area is very much wider circumstances.” We need to persist with this campaign than just the areas in front of schools and often includes and work hard. We can put in a number of concrete parts of trunk roads, which run through very built-up measures, such as islands, stripes, bumps and speed areas. We must think carefully about how else we can cameras—if we can afford them, because the budget is calm down traffic. sometimes limited—but we need to change our mentality. Having said that, some concrete changes can be The second type of road—the rural road—is common considered. A short while ago in my constituency, we in my county. There are a very high number of deaths experienced two deaths on a dual carriageway that on rural roads. People think, “Oh, this is a lovely comes immediately off the M4. People can drive for country road, let’s put our foot down and enjoy it.” three and a half hours down from London with not a Even people who are familiar with such roads can single obstacle, and suddenly they go round a roundabout suddenly be surprised by something coming out of a and find themselves on a dual carriageway where cars gateway. It could be an animal, a child or a farm vehicle. can come in and out from small side roads. That is an It could be an obstacle of some description or something extremely dangerous situation. I am referring to the that has happened that they did not expect. Unfortunately, M4 at the point where it reaches Pont Abraham and because drivers are going at speed, such accidents can becomes the A48. The A48 goes on to Cross Hands be much more gruesome, with consequences that are through Cwmgwili, which is where the two accidents considerably more serious than those we see in accidents took place, and on to Carmarthen and St. Clears. on other types of road. Ever since a very serious accident some 20 years ago, The third type of road is the national motorway or a number of us have been calling for the road to be dual carriageway. I have long advocated trying to get a made into an express road with exits and entries similar culture in which we genuinely reduce speed. In the past, to those on a motorway. Then we would not have fast food was all the rage, but now we want to go for people crossing the carriageway. I am sure that hon. slow cooking. It is a mentality or an idea. For example, Members can think of similar roads near to them. We people think that it takes one hour to drive from Llanelli must consider improving road safety on dual carriageways to Cardiff, but they should think that it will take an and main trunk roads that form part of a network, hour and a half. We should adjust our mentality to because the people on them are likely to be travelling at accept a more sensible speed. That is not easy. A couple some speed. We also need to make people aware of the of years ago, I suggested, to much hilarity, that one way types of junctions they will encounter coming in and of changing our speed limits in this country would be to out of those roads. That is a particular problem in areas interpret all our speed signs that are currently interpreted such as the rural parts of Wales and England. as meaning miles per hour as meaning kilometres per We must also consider how we treat cyclists. We all hour. In other words, when a driver sees a sign saying know the benefits of cycling—how healthy it can be and 30, it would mean not 30 mph but 30 kph, which is just how it can reduce pollution. I recently had the tremendous under 20 mph. At the time, people thought I was mad. pleasure of cycling with my young nieces along the Now we are hearing many more people saying, “20 is millennium coastal path in Llanelli, where there are no plenty” in our urban areas and particularly around our cars. I quite understand that we cannot have such a schools. It is certainly a measure that we could consider cycle path on every route because obviously, there is not both in our urban areas and on our country roads. the space, and we want to be able to encourage people I very much welcome the mapping system that the to cycle on ordinary roads as well; but we need to Minister referred to for country roads. As for motorways, consider a number of measures if we are to do that. different issues are involved, and I am not the expert to I welcome the commitment in the draft road safety say what a good speed limit would be. None the less, strategy to trying to reduce the risks for cyclists, possibly when we travel at high speeds we must be aware of halving the risks involved within 10 years. We need to unexpected events such as a tyre blow-out. By travelling look at how we encourage people to cycle, as well as at at lower speeds, we can considerably reduce the number ways of improving junctions and space for cyclists, of accidents. because of the issue of “critical mass”; it is much safer The psychology of using a human image is very for cyclists when people are used to seeing them and effective. It affects people’s mentality when they are expect them to be there. Again, it is a matter of attitude. shown that a child is far more likely to be injured by a France is a great country for cycling, and there is a strict car that is speeding, or when motorway roadworks have understanding there that drivers leave a metre between 145WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 146WH

[Nia Griffith] the Government have chosen to request a debate on road safety. It is always timely to discuss issues of such their vehicle and a cyclist. We need to work with our importance. drivers on the idea that overtaking a cyclist is like I acknowledge, as other hon. Members have done, overtaking a motorbike: often, drivers need as much that there has been considerable progress, but road space as they would to overtake a car, and they should accidents are still responsible for hundreds of thousands not expect to be able to scrape past a cyclist when a car of injuries each year. It is also pertinent to mention that is coming in the opposite direction, unless the road is they are the biggest killer of people in the five to 35 age sufficiently wide. The measures that we take to reduce group, despite that progress. Those injured, and the dangers to cyclists should include ways of encouraging families of those killed or injured, have to face great cyclists. emotional and financial suffering. It is also significant, in the current economic climate, that we recognise that Jim Fitzpatrick: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for road accidents cost our economy 1.5 per cent. of our giving way—which will perhaps let her pause for breath annual gross domestic product. That is the equivalent and allow me to say that I fully support the points she of what the Government spent in total on transport in has been making. She will know that the Department 2006-07, so we are not talking about small sums of for Transport has committed £140 million over the next money. It therefore follows—I am sure we all agree on three years to promote cycling. I did not mention that this—that we should do as much as possible to reduce because it is a different initiative, but it will contribute the number of deaths and accidents on our roads. As we to trying to create the numbers she has been talking have heard from other hon. Members, roads should be about. Through cycle demonstration towns, pathways safe for everyone—pedestrians, cyclists, car drivers, and the promotion of cycling we shall get critical mass motorcyclists and HGV drivers. at some time in the next decade, as cycling comes more popular; I am convinced of that. From the road safety There has been some positive news about road safety, point of view, a strategy focusing on ways of reducing not least of which is the fact that roads deaths fell below incidents, collisions and dangers to cyclists goes hand in 3,000 in 2007 for the first time since 1926. That is hand with the sort of cycling promotion that my hon. certainly good progress. The Government’s new consultation Friend is suggesting. on road safety, “A safer Way”, is also to be welcomed. However, as I think we would all agree, there is no room Nia Griffith: I welcome the Minister’s remarks and for complacency. There are still nearly 250,000 casualties look forward to improvements for cyclists. on our roads each year, including some 3,000 children Out-of-town shopping centres sometimes consist of a who were killed or seriously injured in 2007 alone. To group of shops with roads and roundabouts between make our roads safer we first need to know why accidents them. Often, it appears that they are in private ownership occur, as well as where, when and how, and who is and that little consideration has been given to how involved. We need to know those things to enable us to anyone can cross from one part of the shopping centre develop better policies that get to the heart of the to another after getting out of their car—whether they problem and help to reduce road accidents, injuries and are an ordinary pedestrian, someone with a pushchair deaths. We also need urgently to review how we collect or a disabled person. Sometimes, it is almost safer for information about road accidents. The current system them to jump back into their car and drive 50 yd to for reporting them relies not only on accidents being another part of the shopping park, so that they do not reported in the first place—we all know that that does have to cross a busy road or roundabout where no not always happen—but on the police accurately assessing provision has been made for pedestrians. Can any measures the level of injury sustained. A comparison with hospital be taken to ensure that all private developers of such data suggests that too many accidents go unreported or retail parks must undertake to provide appropriate safety? underestimated. There has been much criticism of the Anyone who has walked into Westminster underground STATS—road accident statistics—system, not least by station recently will have seen the poster campaign on the Select Committee on Transport, and the review of shared space—those areas where people do not know the system mentioned in the Government’s consultation whether cars are allowed, and where cyclists certainly document gives us an opportunity to change how we do not know what they are allowed to do. For those record accidents. pedestrians who may be vulnerable, perhaps because of Licensing and seatbelt information, for example, should poor sight or hearing, shared space can be extremely be recorded as standard so that we can understand all confusing. That also applies to retail parks. Sometimes the factors that contribute to road accidents and injuries. it is not at all clear where the trolleys, people, pushchairs Until we know how many road accidents there are, who and wheelchairs are supposed to move in and out is involved in them and what caused them, we cannot between the moving cars. One of the problems for adequately plan road safety policy. That is why—this motorists is that they are sometimes not sure which way was touched on in an intervention—we, along with they should be driving—all the way down one column organisations such as the RAC, are calling for the and all the way back up another, or in a two-way creation of a road accidents investigation branch similar system. The situation is often not as clear as it should to the rail, maritime and air accidents investigation be, and such confusion can make things hazardous for branches. It would gather accurate data about road pedestrians. What steps can be taken on that issue? accidents, analyse the data and make recommendations to Government on road safety. The Government 3.15 pm consultation states that they do not think that that is Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): It is a pleasure to have necessary because the police already investigate accidents, the opportunity to contribute to today’s debate under but does the Minister agree that there is a difference your chairmanship, Mr. Benton. I am also pleased that between the role and work of the police in deciding who 147WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 148WH is responsible for accidents and the work that needs to part of the process and that they should not be learned be done to establish in a broader sense why accidents on the hoof by novice drivers once they have passed happen? The expert panel that the Government have their test? suggested is in our view simply not enough. A national authority, with the same powers and responsibilities as Mr. Goodwill: The Conservatives considered that the rail, maritime and aviation bodies is necessary. Why proposal. However, one problem is that it would be does the Minister think that it is appropriate to have an difficult to require learner drivers, for example, to participate investigation branch for rail, maritime and aviation in motorway driving in all parts of the country—my incidents, but not one for road incidents? constituents are 60 miles away from the nearest motorway. Drink-driving continues to be one of the biggest problems on our roads. As the Minister will be aware, Mark Hunter: The hon. Gentleman makes a valid there may be a difference of opinion between the parties point. Of course there are different circumstances in on this issue. The number of road deaths involving individual areas. I am articulating the case that we have drink-drivers has remained the same over the past decade, not gone far enough. The Government might consider while the total number of deaths has fallen considerably. ways in which to introduce a different kind of test and In 2007 alone—the last full year for which figures are ensure that those areas of expertise are covered before available—16 per cent. of road deaths involved a drink- people pass the test, and that they are not an afterthought driver. The Liberal Democrats have for some time been or something that people learn on the hoof afterwards. calling for the drink-drive limit in the UK to be brought Also on learner drivers, in the current economic in line with that in most of the rest of Europe, from climate I am concerned that many young people could 80 mg to 50 mg per 100 ml of blood. be tempted to cut corners when it comes to learning to drive because of the cost of the process. Recent estimates As the Minister knows, that has the support of many suggest that people on average are spending £1,500 on industry experts, including the British Medical Association, lessons before they become holders of a full driving the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Royal licence—[Interruption.] I may have misread the Minister’s Society for the Prevention of Accidents, and Brake. expression, but he appears to be surprised at that figure. Reducing the drink-drive limit would save lives by sending I can tell him that it is from the “Learning to Drive” a clear message that “just another drink” will put people consultation paper. over the limit. As he may also be aware, University college London has estimated that such a measure There is no doubt that £1,500 is a lot of money to a could prevent some 65 deaths and 230 injuries a year. In lot of people. The danger is that in this economic the light of that, will he assure us that he at least retains climate, when times are tough and when pennies are an open mind on the issue, and that if he is not yet being counted in most households around the country, convinced, he will continue to consider the evidence people might be tempted to take fewer formal lessons that many of us believe is already compelling? and perhaps take more assistance and advice from friends and relatives, and cut back on the necessary I was pleased to hear the Government announcement expert tuition in which I am sure we all believe. Has the on roadside drugs testing, but I remain sceptical that Minister had any recent meetings with insurance companies the specification for a device will be approved, despite to discuss incentivised lower premiums for young drivers the fact that the technology is available. A reply to a who take more training and driver development? parliamentary question I asked in 2008 assured me that My strongest criticism is of the lack of progress on departmental advisers were continuing their work to the problem of uninsured drivers. An estimated 5 per produce such a specification and that they hoped to cent. of all drivers in this country—about 1.5 million reach a conclusion soon. What assurance can the Minister drivers—are driving without insurance. Those people give the House today that the announcement earlier this add about £30 to the cost of each driver’s insurance month will actually end in a device specification being policy because they choose to opt out. We know from agreed and the device being used on the roadside? evidence that those drivers will kill four people each Thirty per cent. of car accidents involve at least one week on our roads. In 2006, they were directly responsible car driver under 25 years old, so young and novice for 36,000 crashes and 27,000 injuries. drivers are much more likely to be involved in accidents Meanwhile, incredibly, the average fine for uninsured than other groups of drivers. To be clear, it is not that drivers has dropped by 13 per cent. since 1997, from all young drivers drive dangerously—most do not—but £224 to £194—those figures were given to me in a recent many do not get adequate training or experience of parliamentary answer—which is lower than the fine driving in adverse conditions. many people get for failing to buy a TV licence. That is The current driving test focuses heavily on controlling a sad indictment of the priorities that are recognised by and manoeuvring the car, not on driving independently the courts these days. Will the Minister undertake to and in hazardous situations. I therefore welcome the lobby his colleagues in the Ministry of Justice so that Government’s response to the “Learning to Drive” they can change the advice given to courts on the level consultation and the inclusion of a section on independent of fines for driving without insurance and so avoid the driving in the practical test. I was disappointed, however, crazy situation of the cost of the fine being far less than that the response did not include the suggestion made the cost of the insurance, which happens in many cases? by many of the consultation respondents that certain That provides no incentive whatever for those who are types of driving should be a compulsory part of the minded, wrongly, to do without insurance. learning and assessment process, including driving on The final issue that I should like to address is speeding, urban roads in busy traffic, on quiet rural and one-track which others have mentioned. I have long been a supporter roads and motorways, and in bad weather and at night. of the campaign to change the default speed limit in Does the Minister agree that those skills should be residential areas from 30 mph to 20 mph. The importance 149WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 150WH

[Mark Hunter] hesitate to give them our full backing. The Minister has not been tempted into gimmicky suggestions that do of the issue was brought home to me just last week not have the support of scientific research, which some when I was going from door to door in the Stepping politicians might have been tempted to introduce. Hill ward in my constituency. Time and again, residents Much of the progress over recent years is due to of Lyndhurst avenue, which has already been designated major improvements in car design and safety features. a 20 mph zone by Stockport council, told me of the We must congratulate car manufacturers on their important problem that they face on a daily basis of boy racers achievements in that area. However, it would be unwise and others rat-running at excessive speed through what to over-rely on advances in car safety technology and should be quiet residential areas. The same applies to expect it to provide all the answers. Since 2004, the the Arundel avenue area of Hazel Grove, and I am sure annual decrease in the number of people killed has such problems are not uncommon. The danger to averaged only 3 per cent. No one should be comfortable pedestrians, particularly children and the elderly, is with that plateau. We have slipped down the international obvious, but this is also a basic quality of life issue for league. We used to lead Europe, but the Swedes have people who live in such areas, who are fed up because of passed us. the behaviour of a minority of inconsiderate car drivers. There are three groups of drivers that we are concerned The consultation sets out clearly the danger caused about and must address: drink-drivers, young drivers by speeding and accepts that 20 mph zones not only and motorcyclists. One of the most worrying dangers reduce the severity of injuries, but reduce by some on our roads today is drink-driving. In 2007, drunk 70 per cent. the number of accidents involving pedestrian drivers caused 460 fatal accidents. Over half the drivers injuries, as we have heard. It also states that the Government killed at night were over the limit. There have been will encourage local authorities to introduce 20 mph welcome advances over the last 30 years to crack down zones. That is good news, but I am concerned that on drink-driving. A key factor in that success is the because the current systems and protocols require local UK’s tough approach to punishment, in particular the authorities to obtain police evaluations or consent from 12-month ban. the Government, they are too unwieldy and difficult to The importance I attribute to that gold standard of allow 20 mph zones to be introduced swiftly where they punishment is one reason I am yet to be convinced that are needed. Will the Minister commit to a review of the an across-the-board reduction to 50 mg is the right way way in which local authorities apply for 20 mph zones to tackle drink-driving. European countries with lower and try to make it easier for speed limits to be based on limits tend to have a range of penalties for different local circumstances? alcohol levels. In Portugal, the minimum ban for drink- Finally, we are all aware that without enforcement, driving is 15 days. In Austria, the maximum is one many of these policies are toothless. Quite simply, drivers month. A blanket reduction in the blood alcohol limit must know that they will be caught if they break the in the UK would inevitably give rise to pressure to rules. We need more police officers on the roads to spot introduce graduated penalties. Reducing or diluting the dangerous drivers. People who use mobile phones while penalties for drink-driving would be deeply unwise and driving, drink and drug drivers and those who speed would send completely the wrong signal. Anybody who need to know that they can and will be caught. Too thinks that fines and points will be effective should look many drivers feel that they are beyond the long arm of at the hundreds of thousands of people who are caught the law. That must change sooner rather than later. speeding every year, for which those are the penalties. As well as the obvious deterrent value, the signal sent 3.31 pm by the UK’s tough approach to punishing drink-driving has played an important role in the cultural shift during Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): the latter years of the 20th century. It has become It is a great pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, steadily more socially unacceptable to drink and drive. Mr. Benton. This debate is particularly timely as my That cannot be said of every country in the world and it second son passed his driving test yesterday. We now is a behavioural change that we jeopardise at our peril. have two to worry about. It is a precious advantage that we should not undervalue. When a train or an aeroplane crashes, as happened The UK seems to be lagging behind a number of this week, it dominates the headlines for days. However, countries on the issue of drug-driving. We still rely on every day of the week, death on our roads goes unnoticed the field impairment test, or FIT, which is the test that by the national media. The number of people killed on was used prior to the introduction of breathalysers by our railways in the 36 years between 1967 and 2002 was Barbara Castle. It involves the person suspected of 2,903. As hon. Members are aware, that is lower than being under the influence walking along the white line the number of motoring-related fatalities in the single on the road. The authorities in France, Germany, Belgium, year of 2007, which saw 2,943 men, women and children Romania, Croatia, Italy, Australia, Spain, Switzerland, die on Britain’s roads. The death toll on our roads is a Finland, Iceland, the Czech Republic and Luxemburg continuing tragedy about which none of us—whether in have authorised roadside drug-testing equipment, which government or in opposition—should ever be complacent. is deployed and in use. Why is the UK falling behind? Whether as road safety officers, car manufacturers or When choosing which drug to take, people might motorists behind the wheel, everybody has a part to decide that alcohol is more likely to land them with a play in addressing this tragedy. ban than other drugs. As well as roadside drug-testing I welcome the extent of the cross-party consensus. equipment, we should look at the offence. At the moment, There is tripartite consensus in this important area. the offence is driving while impaired. If we had accurate Whenever we feel that the Government do the right blood or saliva testing, the offence would have to be thing or come up with the right answer, we will not reviewed and become an offence of having drugs in 151WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 152WH one’s system. A consequent problem is that although a heavy lorries turn, as they often use their rear wheels to level could be set above which driving is likely to be cut the corner and can get the cyclists. Some people say impaired, the drugs being dealt with are illegal, unlike that cyclists go anyway in London, but that seems to be alcohol. One solution would be the Director of Public a London phenomenon, as other cyclists around the Prosecutions judging at what level prosecutions should country seem to be much more law-abiding. Certainly, be brought, even though having any drug in one’s as long as there is no risk to pedestrians, I hope that the system would be an offence. The shadow Home Office Mayor will be allowed to progress with that idea when and justice teams are at an early stage in negotiations on the full risk assessment has been done. this difficult issue. I am sure that the Minister has had The Minister might know that the Opposition have similar discussions. suggested changing the speed limit for large goods Young men are a major source of problems on our vehicles on single carriageway trunk roads. Currently, roads. A toxic combination of inexperience, overconfidence the speed limit for lorries on trunk roads is 40 mph, and an inappropriate attitude to risk means that young which we believe to be unacceptably low because it men sadly often fill the pages of local newspapers leads to accidents being caused by frustrated drivers following nasty accidents. Achieving attitudinal change overtaking in dangerous places. The head-on accidents must be a crucial goal in tackling the problem effectively. that often follow from that dangerous manoeuvre are A number of ideas in the Government’s consultation some of the worst accidents on our roads. Some paper on improving education on road safety are attractive. supermarket lorries even have an apology on the back In particular, I welcome the emphasis on viewing learning to explain to following motorists that they are travelling to drive as a long-term ongoing process, rather than as a so slowly—unreasonably slowly, in some people’s view— one-off test. That point was made by my predecessors because of the law. Has the Minister looked into that? I in the Conservative transport team during the passage think that an increase in the speed limit would, unusually, of the Road Safety Act 2006. improve road safety. Indeed, as many people who use the trunk roads know, many lorries already ignore I hope that the Government consultation will result that law. in an improved driving test. Some suggestions made by the hon. Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) are worthy I know that the Department has looked at some of consideration. The Conservative party has suggested research on intelligent speed adaptation, where cars are that the manoeuvres—the three-point turn, reversing fitted with a device that will, unless overridden, limit the round a corner and parallel parking—could be taken car’s speed to the speed limit. My car has a speed out of the test and instead be signed off by an instructor. limiter, which I can set manually—it is always a good That would buy valuable time in the test, so that there idea for a shadow Transport Minister to try to drive would not have to be a more expensive driving test, within the speed limit. It would be sensible for satellite which could have the effect of deterring young people navigation systems that flash up the speed limit to be from taking the test. linked to that adaptation, not with any compulsion, but for people who do not want to pick up any points. I Motorcyclists make up only 1 per cent. of road traffic suspect that people who have nine points on their but account for 19 per cent. of casualties. I have great licence would be very attracted by the idea of a car in concerns about the way in which the new motorcycle which it would be impossible to break the speed limit. driving test was introduced. It was delayed. The answer When driving around a town where one does not know to a parliamentary question by the hon. Member for all the roads, it is often quite difficult to be sure what the Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) revealed that within speed limit is on any part of the road. I know that a trial the first three weeks of the test being in operation, there has been done in Leeds with eight Skodas that were were 14 incidents involving the 50 mph swerve and fitted with that mechanism, and the majority of the break aspect. Ten of those incidents resulted in injury drivers who used it thought it was good. We do not and three people were taken to hospital, two of whom want to impose that mechanism on people against their were blue-lighted by ambulance. What is the Minister’s will, but I would like to hear the Minister’s view on view on the risks related to that aspect of the test? It is whether the industry would be keen to make it an very daunting for a driver to be faced with the examiner option in cars. checking with a radar gun that he is travelling at 50 mph, and then to have to do a particular manoeuvre. We The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) talked want to make sure that the risks involved in that aspect about shared space, which I am not a great fan of, of the test are not such that the Department could be although my predecessor, the hon. Member for North held liable for some serious injury. We are also concerned Shropshire (Mr. Paterson), was more of a fan. I thought about the distance that people still have to travel for that she missed the whole point of shared space, which their test. Young riders could conclude that they might is that motorists are not sure where they should drive as well keep riding with L-plates rather than make a and so they drive very cautiously. The problem is when long journey of up to 30 or 40 miles each way to take a motorist is on a piece of road and there is a green light the test. in front of him, particularly if the road has fencing along each side, and he knows that the limit is 30 and I am interested in some of the new Mayor of London’s goes for it. In a shared space system, which might be suggestions, which could be adopted around the country. appropriate in some town centres, there is no certainty Research on motorcycles using bus lanes, which the on anyone’s part, be they a cyclist, pedestrian or car previous Mayor tried to suppress, has shown the advantages driver, as to where people have a right of way, so of that practice, so I hope that it can be extended motorists proceed very cautiously. The evidence from around the country. Boris has also suggested that cyclists the Netherlands, where that system has been adopted should be allowed to turn left when lights are red so that more widely, is that it results in better road safety. they can get out of the way before the lights change and I know that there are concerns about how it would work 153WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 154WH

[Mr. Robert Goodwill] We are collecting better information on 20 mph limits and zones. As we have all said, the policies that we with blind and partially sighted persons, but it would be propose to improve road safety should be evidence-based. useful to have some pilot projects in the UK to see how A number of towns and cities have extensive knowledge it would work out. I am not altogether sold on the idea, and information about 20 mph limits and zones, which but seeing is believing. we are gathering within the Department so that we can I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments share it with other local authorities and see what worked on some of the questions I have raised, and I assure where, what did not work and why. We want to roll out him, as I am sure that the Liberal Democrats would better guidance so that we can promote 20 mph zones also do, that when he makes sensible proposals that will and limits. result in less carnage on our roads, we will be more than happy to try to support him however we can. Mark Hunter: Will the Minister give way?

Jim Fitzpatrick: The hon. Gentleman made this point 3.45 pm very strongly, so I am happy to give way to him on it. Jim Fitzpatrick: I am pleased to respond—briefly, I anticipate—to some of the points that have been raised. Mark Hunter: I am grateful to the Minister for his In my introductory comments, I omitted to pay tribute thoughtful responses to our questions. One concern to the hon. Members for Scarborough and Whitby about the limits is enforcement—I hope he will forgive (Mr. Goodwill) and for Cheadle (Mark Hunter) for me if he was about to come to that. In my constituency their contributions to policy development and to raising and the Greater Manchester conurbation, local police the profile of road safety. As I said, the issue is not divisions no longer have their own separate traffic police party political. It is a genuine cross-party, cross-House as they have all been centralised in Manchester, which campaigning issue on which there is much common means that we see far less of them. It is generally ground and on which we can benefit from each party’s understood that the police, certainly in our neck of the assessment of proposed policies. woods, are giving less priority to traffic offences than I am very grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for they were previously, although not everything can be a Llanelli (Nia Griffith) for being here and contributing priority at the same time. to the debate, because we all know of the pressures on Does the Minister agree that the police need to be colleagues, particularly today—indeed, we can see that reminded about the importance of these issues and that from looking around the Chamber. She made one comment they need to allocate reasonable resources towards trying about child seat belts, which we all know about, and to ensure that all these good schemes are enforced? We most of us would not think of going out with kids in the all support 20 mph zones. I implemented such zones car without belting them into the back. I was at Bromley- outside schools when I was the leader of the council by-Bow tube station at half-past 6 this morning, waiting many years ago. They work, but they need to be enforced, for colleagues to turn up to engage in some activities—she and the police have a crucial role in that. Does he have will probably understand why I was there at that time in any thoughts as to how the police might be reminded the morning—and a car pulled up by the station. A that this is a fairly important issue to them as well? chap was driving it with his wife in the passenger seat and two kids in the back who were not belted in. I could Jim Fitzpatrick: This is clearly an important issue; I not believe it. I saw that there were belts, even though it totally agree with the hon. Gentleman about its significance. was a relatively old car, so I knocked on his window, Given that the Home Office does not have a Secretary which is a bit of a risk in London at that time. The guy of State at present, perhaps I could make a comment rolled his window down and I said, “Excuse me, sir, I’m under the radar. terribly sorry, but you’ll get a fine if you don’t put seat belts on your kids in the back of the car, and, besides, My Department engages with the Home Office on a it’s very dangerous. If you have a crash, they’ll go regular basis to ensure that we both share the best straight through the windscreen.” I was surprised that information and evidence. I have regular meetings with his reaction was one of total politeness. He said, “Thank Chief Constable Giannasi who now leads for the you very much. You’re a really decent chap, and I’m Association of Chief Police Officers on road safety very grateful that you pointed this out to me,” and then issues. The association is doing all that it can to ensure strapped his kids in. I am not recommending that that the police in all the constabularies are giving enough everybody should do that at any time in London, but I attention to road safety. The pressures on the police was pleased by that gentleman’s reaction, and his kids mean that they are constantly moving their forces around are safer as a result of his attention. to deal with priorities as they see them in different areas. I agree entirely with my hon. Friend’s comments As the road safety Minister, I do all that I can to about rural roads and their dangers, particularly for ensure that road safety is maintained as a high-profile people who are not used to driving on them and do not issue for all local authorities and for all constabularies, know about the risks of going around blind bends, or of and I know that ACPO does the same. something being in the road or coming out of a hedge. We hope that the mapping we propose to do will help to Mr. Goodwill: Has the Minister ever looked at the some extent, because it will flag up the most dangerous New Zealand experience of using school control zones, roads, so that when people plot their route or use their where 20 mph limits are advised by electronic signs satnav, we might be able to give them some technological which are activated only at times of the day that the advice, in the years ahead, and tell them about those head teacher determines? That means, for example, that roads and the dangers they present. the motorist does not have to comply with the limit at 155WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 156WH

3 o’clock in the morning or during school holidays, still have an advisory board. I am not sure that we will which means that they are more likely to comply when need that as well as an independent panel. Combining the lights are flashing. the two might create something more elaborate. An annual report will be produced that we can debate, Jim Fitzpatrick: At the risk of making this sound less probably in this Chamber. Given the number of our exciting, I believe that Scotland has some of those signs constituents who are involved—we are talking about as well. If the hon. Gentleman suggests that we should 3,000 people killed and 30,000 seriously injured each make a cross-party trip to New Zealand to have a look year—perhaps we should say that the debate is a more at them, someone might suggest that we should just go important issue for Parliament, and therefore make a to Scotland. The Daily Telegraph might want to run a bid for a full debate on the Floor of the main Chamber. line on that, but perhaps we should not go there. I do not wish to detract from the importance of Westminster We are looking at that experience. Clearly, such signs Hall in any way, Mr. Benton, but perhaps we should make sense. However, as more and more community collectively lobby our parties for such a debate. It would schools are being used during extended hours, a raise the profile of road safety, and I am sure that more variable speed limit may be appropriate only from colleagues would be interested in contributing if we got midnight until 7 in the morning. Those matters are time in the Chamber. under review. Clearly, common sense ought to prevail The annual report would at least give us a document. and we should ensure that we do not cause unnecessary The independent panel would give us advice and congestion. recommendations on what we are doing right, what we are not doing right and where we should go, and then My hon. Friend asked about car park layouts and we could debate independent advice, Government policies out-of-town shopping centres. Forgive me, I do not and suggestions from outside and from campaign groups. mean to absolve myself of responsibility, but it occurs We are moving into a different era. There will be a to me that that is a matter for the Department for different dimension and different analysis in the years Communities and Local Government. It is a planning after 2010, which will be useful in promoting road issue, and, as a planning matter, it ought to be, and I am safety and helping us to get casualty numbers down sure is, taken into account during the planning process. even further. Out-of-town centres should be required to have appropriate transport infrastructure to ensure that people using all The hon. Members for Scarborough and Whitby and modes of transport, including pedestrians and the for Cheadle raised the issue of drink-driving. They vulnerable, can get around safely without resorting to perfectly and eloquently explained different views as to using a car. That is apparently covered in guidance from whether we should maintain or reduce the level. Our DCLG about out-of-town centres. The Department for position is that we are genuinely open. We are looking Transport contributes to and collaborates in its preparation. at the submissions that we receive. We have alluded to the fact that we do not think that the evidence is there I recognise the picture that my hon. Friend paints, yet, but if we get evidence during the consultation because I have had the same experience myself. Perhaps period, obviously we would need to publish it and say she might want to take the issue up with DCLG and whether we support a change. copy me into the correspondence. Again, as we have discussions with DCLG, it may be appropriate to look However, as colleagues will know, we have already at what the latest information was, how recently it was taken action. We have spent £4 million equipping all the refreshed, and whether it needs to be reviewed. police forces in England and Wales with the new digital breathalysers, which are evidentially approved. That The hon. Member for Cheadle raised an interesting means that we can cut out a loophole. When somebody point about data. As he suggested, we are always keen is stopped and a blood or urine test is demanded, they to ensure that our information is as accurate as are taken back to a police station. At the moment, if possible. I hear what he says about an accident things are delayed for as long as possible—two or three investigation branch. However, the number of road hours—the person comes in under the radar when the casualties is completely different from the number of test is finally done. The new digital breathalysers will accidents dealt with by the marine, air and rail accident close that loophole. investigation branches. Currently, the evidence is that the number of people We are proposing in our consultation document that killed or seriously injured by people who have been a new independent panel should focus on the data that drinking and who test between 50 to 80 mg is only 2 per emerge on fatal accidents from expert police accident cent. Should we change the law for 2 per cent., with all investigation, and, through that, give us a steer as to that that would involve in terms of calibration, legislation, where we might want to be. As has been said, the police forces, social and cultural attitudes, the impact marine accident investigation branch, air accident on rural communities and the licensed trade and so on, investigation branch and rail accident investigation branch even though we are talking lives, which are absolutely have so few accidents to investigate that they can deal important? Perhaps we should be going after those who with them all. They do not have eight every day. We kill or seriously injure the other 98 per cent.—the would have to create a whole new constabulary to people who are over 80, 100, 150 mg—with better investigate that many accidents. enforcement. We are proposing that an independent panel looks at The new breathalysers will at least give us better data, the data—I can tell from the hon. Gentleman’s body and will do so in a short period of time. We do not have language that he is not entirely convinced. Neither am I. the data at present, but we will have better scientific I do not think that we necessarily have this absolutely evidence soon, and we will keep the matter under review. right, but we are proposing a national body to advise on I am not saying that we will not change the level. make-up, what should be done and so on. We will also Drink-driving and the level of alcohol in the system is 157WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 158WH

[Jim Fitzpatrick] get a credit towards their theory test and that that will make the driving test easier for them. The course also never a closed issue. It is constantly under review. We informs them about how to behave in the back of a are constantly under pressure from ACPO and from car—about belting up and not winding up the driver, campaign groups, and I know that the issue will not go which is one of the things that motivates young drivers away in Parliament either. As I said, our minds are open to go faster. All the evidence shows that if one person on the matter, and we will look at the evidence that belts up in a car, everybody else does so automatically, comes in. but getting that one person to belt up is the focus. The hon. Member for Cheadle mentioned the cost of Motorcycle testing is being monitored to ensure that driving lessons, which was certainly an issue for us when the risk is appropriate, balanced against the need to we looked at driving training and testing and how to show competence. The distance that has to be travelled improve the situation. That it cost so much was a bit of is an issue, but we are getting that down because the a surprise at the time, but when we looked into the number of testing venues is increasing all the time. I matter further and at the fact that only 44 per cent. of have had several meetings with parliamentary colleagues people pass their test each year—fewer pass their test and their constituents, and we have been able to resolve first time—we found that it is the additional lessons that some of these issues. That puts pressure on the DSA to people have to take continuously that create the average do its best. It is doing its best, and it is still bearing fee of £1,500. It is our strongly held view that if we down on the question of ensuring that as many centres improve training to an appropriate level, more people are available as possible. It has also been changing how will pass more quickly, which ought to save money in driving tests are booked, because that has been a factor the long term; but again, the matter will continue to be in reducing the availability of some test centres. Professional examined. instructors are block-booking and then cancelling within The hon. Gentleman will know that measures have three days. They do not get a penalty because they are been introduced to tackle uninsured driving, including cancelling within the appropriate time, but no one else police powers to seize vehicles used on the road by can take the bookings because their use has not been uninsured drivers. Police powers have been improved to planned. We are looking at all such issues. access information contained on the Motor Insurers Bureau database. In 2008, police seized about 185,000 I have seen the suggestion for cyclists from the Mayor. vehicles. The seizure programme has contributed to As a cyclist, I am interested, and as a Minister, I and my improved compliance. From 2006 to 2008, police forces colleagues look at all the submissions that come in carried out spot checks on vehicles and found that the during a consultation. We shall come forward with level of uninsured drivers fell by half in two years. The responses in due course. Transport for London is trialling proportion of uninsured drivers fell to 1.2 per cent. motorcycles in bus lanes for 18 months, in line with from 1.9 per cent. The number of vehicles stopped that what many other local authorities have done. We shall were without a current MOT fell from 4.2 to 1.5 per look at the evidence with interest in due course. I was cent.; the proportion of drivers stopped who did not comfortable with getting TfL into line—the Mayor have a valid vehicle tax licence fell from 2 to 1 per cent.; made the right decision there—and that is the advice we and the level of drivers committing a serious offence, have been giving London for some time. such as having no insurance or driving while disqualified, fell to 3.4 per cent. from 7.5 per cent. Finally, I turn to intelligent speed adaptation—another issue on which we run a big risk of being attacked by That there is a cut of almost 50 per cent. across the the lobby that thinks the Government are anti-motoring. board is simply because of technology such as computers We are not, and the other main parties are not anti- and automatic number plate recognition cameras. The motoring. We are pro-road safety, and if we can improve police are using the technology far more effectively. road safety through different initiatives, we would do When we have continuous insurance enforcement, as we that. If a tiny minority of people in the motoring will relatively soon, we will be able to use that information community or fraternity—whom I would loosely call as we use the TV licence-checking system at the moment. the “petrolheads”—accuse us of being anti-motoring, I We will not need to check people on the road, just as we would accuse them of being anti-road safety. Intelligent do not need vans going around detecting whether people speed adaptation could be a powerful tool. I have been have a TV receiver in their home. We will know where in a TfL car and seen ISA working, on a voluntary and they live. They can be written to and, if they cannot on a compulsory basis. The voluntary ISA looks simple explain why the vehicle is not taxed or insured, or has and useful as a tool for giving people information. It no MOT, they will be open to penalties. We will be can use the global positioning system to determine the bearing down much more strongly on such matters. The speed limit in a given area, and a warning device says hon. Gentleman asked about the level of fines. From whether people are going over the speed limit. It will be memory, I think that I have written to the Ministry of a tool that those who sell cars can use, just as they are Justice on the matter, but I shall check and let him starting to get to grips with other safety devices. They know. If I have not, I shall do so because it is a fair can use them to sell to car buyers, particularly parents point. However, I am pretty confident that I have. buying a first car for a young son or daughter who has The hon. Member for Scarborough and Whitby voiced just passed their test. The latest technology such as concerns about the drink-driving level. As I said, that is stability control and ABS costs no more than £500. a live issue and will continue to be so. He also raised the A parent will spend that in order to know that their question, as did other colleagues, of the attitude of child, who does not have a lot of experience behind the young men. The foundations of a pre-driving qualification wheel, has all the technological advances to help keep course for 14 to 16-year-olds in schools and colleges are that car on the road if they have to brake fiercely and proving very popular, because people feel that they will need protection. 159WH Road Safety4 JUNE 2009 Road Safety 160WH

The technology is improving and motor manufacturers political, but there are disagreements and differences of and traders are learning more and starting to promote opinion about how we can improve the situation. We safe cars, just as they are learning about environmental have all contributed, along with all the people on the issues and promoting green cars. They will use ISA to front line out there, who are doing the real, hard work sell vehicles, particularly to parents. The top end of the of making sure that people are protected as best as is market now automatically carries such features, which possible. We shall continue to debate the issues and to will move down through the rest of the market. European come up with the best possible solutions. legislation will force manufacturers and traders to do that by the middle of the next decade in any case, so Question put and agreed to. why should they not jump ahead of the game and introduce them earlier? As I said at the outset of the debate and in beginning 4.9 pm my closing remarks, in my view the issue is not party Sitting adjourned.

15WS Written Ministerial Statements4 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 16WS

ambitions in this space. The paper also mentions that the Commission Written Ministerial will publish a communication on the subject in the coming weeks. This will also present an opportunity for presidency and Commission to report on the recent conference in Prague on the “Future of the Statements Internet”, at which among other issues, the “Internet of Things” was discussed. The second item will be a readout by the presidency regarding Thursday 4 June 2009 their conference on safer internet for children that took place recently in Prague. The end result of the conference was the adoption of the Prague declaration by all member states entitled “New European Approach for Safer Internet and Children”, the BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY aim of which is to see enhanced co-operation by all stakeholders REFORM across Europe, which will lead to for safer use of the Internet by children. The Department for Children, Schools and Families led on this conference. There is unlikely to be a debate on these two issues and Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Council therefore we do not plan to intervene.

The Minister of State, Department for International Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): My noble Friend ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the Minister for Communications, Technology and Broadcasting , Lord Carter of Barnes, has made the Greenhouse Gas Emissions following statement: The following statement provides the agenda items for which BERR has responsibility at the forthcoming Transport, The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Telecommunications and Energy Council (Telecoms Council) in Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): On Friday 5 June I am Luxembourg on 11 June 2009. Andy Lebrecht (Deputy Permanent launching a DEFRA/DECC consultation on Government Representative in Brussels) will represent the United Kingdom. guidance on how organisations should measure and The only substantive item on the agenda is an exchange of report on their corporate greenhouse gas emissions. views regarding European network and information security policy. Copies of the consultation document, guidance and a To guide the exchange of views, the Czech presidency has issued a paper, ahead of the Council which includes asking the Ministers regulatory impact assessment will be placed in the Libraries three questions. The first is what the medium to long-term aims of of both Houses. The consultation document sets out a strengthened network and information security policy at EU the rationale for Government intervention, how the level will be while the second and third relate to the future of the guidance was developed and seeks views on it and European Network and Information Security Agency (ENISA). the impact assessment. The consultation will close on This work has various strands, including the recently published 7 August 2009. Stakeholders will continue to be involved Commission’s recent communication on “Critical Information throughout the consultation period. Infrastructure Protection” (CIIP). I recently placed an explanatory The consultation package will also be available on the memorandum (EM ¤375/09) with both Houses on this communication. This communication was also recently discussed DEFRA website at: http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/ at a ministerial conference on CIIP in Tallinn in April, which consult/greenhouse-gas/index.htm proposed that the content of the communication and the conclusions Responses to this consultation will be reviewed and of the conference should be discussed at the next TTE Council. final guidance published by 1 October 2009 to comply This is unlikely to be a controversial agenda item. Regarding with the requirement of section 83 of the Climate the UK’s interventions, we will welcome the opportunity to Change Act 2008. debate this essential issue, and will be suggesting that the community needs to be clear on what it wants to achieve in network and information security policy terms. We will be seeking to establish principles that lead to a policy that can deliver measurable benefit HOME DEPARTMENT and add to, rather than subtract from the ICT sectors’s ability to drive through growth and recovery. Regarding ENISA, we will say that it is too early in the debate Independent Monitor Report to say whether we still need an agency. First, we need to establish the policy priorities and then asses the extent to which they can be achieved through an agency and whether this represents value The Secretary of State for the Home Department for money. (Jacqui Smith): I have today placed in the Library a Finally on this agenda item, overall, the UK is generally copy of the report by Mrs. Linda Costelloe Baker, the supportive of the projected work plan set out in the Commission Independent Monitor for Entry Clearance Refusals with communication on CIIP and believes that the closer collaboration Limited Rights of Appeal, covering the period 1 April with industry, and the increased drive to achieve preparedness so to 30 September 2008. A copy is also being made all member states are capable and prepared to respond to an available on the UKBA website (http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/ emergency is extremely good news. en/independentmonitor/imparliamentaryreports.) together This will be followed by two items under “Any Other Business” with UK Border Agency’s response to the Independent which are “Internet of Things—An action plan for Europe and Monitor’s recommendations. Information from the Commission” and “Ministerial Conference— Safer Internet for Children (Prague, 20 April 2009),—Information I am most grateful to Mrs. Costelloe Baker for this from the Presidency”. report based on the 904 sample cases which she has The former item will see the Commission present a short paper reviewed for the period 1 April to 30 September 2008, entitled “Internet of Things—An Action Plan for Europe— and the 578 cases reviewed during her monitoring Information from the Commission”. This paper lays out the visits to visa issuing posts during the period April to challenges that this subject brings, if Europe is to realise its September 2008. 17WS Written Ministerial Statements4 JUNE 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 18WS

In the covering letter to this, her final report, The first and main item of the agenda will be preparation Mrs. Costelloe Baker notes that Visa Services Directorate of the June European Council. This will include a recognises the need to “spend the next year concentrating policy debate on the employment implications of the on the basics...and paying attention to feedback”. This economic crisis, messages from the 7 May employment will be UKBA’s main focus for 2009-10. Mrs. Costelloe summit and a Commission communication for the June Baker describes the overseas visa operation as “the European Council. The communication to be published most constructive organisation” she has ever worked the week before EPSCO will propose an update of EU alongside, with “enthusiastic, energetic staff whose actions and priorities on the impact of the global downturn commitment to doing a good job means that they have on employment. sought, welcomed and thrived on straight talking and The next item will be political agreement on employment external scrutiny”. guidelines. A general approach on the employment Mrs. Costelloe Baker makes a number of constructive guidelines under the Lisbon strategy was agreed at the recommendations as to how the UK Border Agency March 2009 EPSCO. Following a European Parliament can continue to improve. Key themes to pursue are: opinion, these will be for political agreement ready for The accuracy of data capture. formal adoption at a future Council. The next item on The attention to evidence in the decision-making process. the agenda is political agreement on a proposal which Promotion of consistency in the application of the new Immigration will extend social security rights to third country nationals, Rules relating to deception (paragraphs 3207 A and B). including those who have never worked. The UK is not The appearance and quality of refusal notices. taking part in this proposal. Complaint and correspondence handling procedures. The Council will also seek adoption of Council Global implementation of IM recommendations. conclusions on flexicurity in time of crisis. Flexicurity The development of a constructive working relationship with policies are seen as increasingly important as part of the the chief inspector of the UK Border Agency. strategy to help labour markets in the current downturn. The UK Border Agency welcomes these comments This will be followed by Council conclusions on social and is keen to use these recommendations to drive up services as a tool for active inclusion. The measures the quality of its service to customers while maintaining addressed are largely already in train and there are no a high level of immigration control. direct implications for the UK. There will also be Council I wish to record our thanks to Mrs. Costelloe Baker conclusions on active and dignified ageing. Active ageing for the work and effort she has put into producing this is a Czech presidency theme, and a necessary policy in her sixth and final report as Independent Monitor for light of the demographic time bomb. Finally there will Entry Clearance Refusals with Limited Rights of Appeal. be Council conclusions on inclusion of Roma. These have been drafted in the light of the first meeting of the Home Office Annual Repport integrated European platform for Roma inclusion in April 2009 which discussed a set of common basic principles on Roma inclusion. The UK Government The Secretary of State for the Home Department welcome all the conclusions. (Jacqui Smith): We will publish the Home Office’s 2009 The Council will also receive presidency reports on Departmental Report on 5 June. Copies will be available progress in negotiations on three draft directives: pregnant in the Vote Office and on the Home Office website. The workers; anti-discrimination; and equal treatment between report describes the work of the Home Office during men and women engaged in a self-employed capacity. 2008-09, in particular as reflected in its strategic objectives. Under any other business, there will be information from the Commission on a report by the high level WORK AND PENSIONS group on disability presenting an update of the progress made by each MS towards ratification and implementation Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumers of the UN Convention. In addition, the Commission Affairs Council will report on-impact of free movement of workers in the context of EU enlargement. There will also be information from the Polish delegation giving details of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work an informal ministerial working group meeting which I and Pensions (Jonathan Shaw): The Employment, Social attended in Radziejowice, Poland on 18-19 May 2009. Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council will be This meeting discussed how best to face the economic held on 8 June 2009 in Luxembourg. I will represent crisis. There will also be information on conferences the UK. held under Czech presidency. 9P Petitions4 JUNE 2009 Petitions 10P

the overprovision of places in Colchester and the sustained Petitions levels of low achievement at three Colchester schools. The County propose to address these two issues by Thursday 4 June 2009 closing three schools (including Thomas Lord Audley) and creating a single school, which the authority hope to be an Academy subject to the DCSF decision. The OBSERVATIONS County also proposes to expand the five remaining schools, all of which are successful and popular with parents. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES If, having considered the responses to its consultation, Schools (Essex) the County Council decides to proceed with the proposed reorganisation it is required to publish Statutory Notices. The Petition of various pupils and former pupils, parents, Then follows a six week representation period in which residents and others, comments and objections can be submitted. These must Declares that Thomas, Lord Audley School has a be taken into consideration by the decision maker when special place in the life of the Berechurch Ward community deciding whether to approve proposals. More detail on in accordance with the Government’s policies towards the decision-making arrangements and guidance is available promoting sustainable communities; further declares from the School Organisation Website at: www.dcsf.gov.uk/ the petitioners’ opposition to proposals by Essex County schoolorg. Council which would result in the closure of the School and the bussing of pupils to a school some distance away at considerable financial cost to the parents. Schools (Isle of Wight) The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons calls on the Government to stop Essex County The Petition of Chale School and Village Community Council from closing Thomas, Lord Audley School; to Association and supporters, ensure that all necessary support, financial and otherwise, Declares that Chale Church of England Primary is given to enable the school to improve its performance School must be retained within the village; further and to continue to be an integral part of the community declares that this small rural school provides the perfect in the years ahead; and to implement ‘Option 4’ for environment for local children to develop their full secondary school provision in Colchester which would potential academically, together with social skills for include Thomas, Lord Audley School operating in future life within the community of the village; notes partnership with Alderman Blaxill School and the Stanway that the closure of the village school would necessitate School. children as young as four years old travelling up to And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Bob sixteen miles a day on an additional school bus; further Russell, Official Report, 31 March 2009; Vol. 490, notes that this would preclude parents from having c. 892 .] daily interaction with teaching staff and settling their [P000342] children into school each day, and that this would also Observations from the Secretary of State for Children, impact upon children’s opportunities to partake in after Schools and Families: school activities; believes that the financial implications School place planning is the statutory responsibility of providing this transport would eradicate any potential of the local authority (LA) in this case Essex County savings from the school closure; and further believes Council. LAs have a duty to assess the current and that closing the school would rip the heart out of the future need for places and where there are high levels of community, and undermine village life, causing young surplus places are expected to take decisive action to families to move away in order to live near a primary reduce these, as maintaining excessive surplus places school. represents a poor use of resources—resources that can The Petitioners therefore request that the House of be used more effectively to support schools in raising Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, standards. Where the LA propose to make any changes Schools and Families to direct the Isle of Wight Council to local school provision they must publish statutory to abandon any plans to close Chale School. proposals which are then decided under established local decision making arrangements. The House And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by of Commons and Ministers have no direct role in Mr. Andrew Turner, Official Report, 30 April 2009; the process. Vol. 491, c. 1143 .] The process for making statutory proposals to existing [P000360] schools (e.g. school closures) involves five statutory Observations from the Secretary of State for Children, stages: Consultation (with all interested parties); Publication Schools and Families: (in a local newspaper, at the entrance to the school and in a conspicuous place in the area served by the The Government recognises that local schools are school); Representations (allowing for comments and often at the heart of rural communities. Closing a rural objections to be submitted); Decision (normally by the school can have effects well beyond the schooling of the LA); and Implementation (where proposals are approved). children and should only be considered as a last resort. There is a right of appeal to the schools adjudicator in That is why we introduced a presumption against closure specific cases. over 10 years ago. Essex County Council has undertaken its responsibility Local authorities are responsible for planning and in this area quite correctly through a local consultation managing the pattern of educational provision in their process which highlighted the two key facts for parents: area. However, in deciding upon proposals to close a 11P Petitions4 JUNE 2009 Petitions 12P rural school they must act in accordance with statutory also want local authorities to promote shared governance guidance issued by the Secretary of State for Children arrangements between small primary schools in rural Schools and Families. areas as a means of addressing any financial and educational The statutory guidance requires local authorities, challenges. and the schools adjudicator when appropriate, to have I understand the Isle of Wight Council intend to regard to the presumption against closure. The guidance publish the proposal to close Chale Primary School on also requires authorities (or schools adjudicator) to 10 July. In the six weeks following publication local take account of several other factors when considering parents and residents will have the opportunity to put those proposals—including transport availability and forward their views, which the local authority must take cost, alternatives to closure and the impact on the into consideration in coming to a decision. If the Church community. of England were to object to the proposals the authority I wrote to all local authorities in January 2008, reminding would be obliged to refer the case to the schools adjudicator them of the presumption. In that letter I set out the for fresh consideration. Government’s policy on the alternatives to closure which is that spare capacity should be reassigned and put to The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and other uses, for example to broaden the services schools Families has no powers to direct the Isle of Wight offer in line with the likely future pattern of children’s Council to abandon their plans to close Chale Church services and to meet the needs of local communities. We of England Primary School. 611W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 612W

Paul Clark: The Department for Transport has no Written Answers to plans to appoint a special director to the board of Network Rail. Questions Transport: Finance

Thursday 4 June 2009 Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how much each English shire county has received in transport grant in each of the last five years. [278030] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Paul Clark: The Department for Transport’s website Employment Agencies contains details relating to the allocation of capital transport grant to local transport authorities including David Taylor: To ask the hon. Member for North the shire counties at: Devon, representing the House of Commons http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/ltp/capital/ Commission how many House of Commons staff have This funding is not ring-fenced and local authorities been recruited through employment agencies; and if he have discretion to spend their allocations in line with will make a statement. [277949] their priorities. Revenue expenditure on transport is generally supported Nick Harvey: The House of Commons does not fill through the Department for Communities and Local any of its permanent vacancies with agency employed Government’s formula grant. staff. Staff employed by agencies are used to cover temporary or interim vacancies. In 2008-09 expenditure on temporary agency staff equated to just over 4 per cent. of overall staffing costs. LEADER OF THE HOUSE Members: Allowances Legislation Mr. Evennett: To ask the Leader of the House what Dr. Julian Lewis: To ask the hon. Member for North arrangements she plans to make for consultation on Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission the Government’s draft legislative programme for the whether the information on hon. Members’ expenses 2009-10 Session; and if she will make a statement. which has been leaked was obtained by the unauthorised [277952] (a) electronic and (b) physical copying of material. [276388] Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend, the Leader of the House of Commons, will make an announcement Nick Harvey: The matter is subject to an internal shortly. inquiry. I will write to the hon. Member when it has reached conclusions. Members and Peers: Expenses

Simon Hughes: To ask the hon. Member for North John Mann: To ask the Leader of the House if she Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission will discuss with the Leader of the House of Lords the when the Commission expects publication by the House establishment of a Joint Committee to consider of information relating to hon. Members’ allowances co-ordinated publication on the parliamentary intranet between 2004 and 2008; and if he will make a statement. and website of details of the expenses of individual [278002] hon. Members and Peers. [277951]

Nick Harvey: Preparation for publication of Members’ Chris Bryant: The Government will bring forward allowances claims and supporting documentation from legislation to establish a new, independent Parliamentary April 2004 until March 2008 is nearing completion. Standards Authority to oversee the expenses regimes of Final checks are being carried out, and any appeals by both Houses. It will be open to the new Authority to Members about the precise scope of what is included in co-ordinate the publication of information about the the publication scheme are due to be heard and determined expenses of Members of both Houses. by the Committee on Members’ Allowances during the course of next week. Subject to testing the public internet Written Questions access arrangements, publication will follow as soon as possible after that. Mr. Amess: To ask the Leader of the House what steps she is taking to ensure the completeness of answers to Parliamentary Questions for written answer. [277953] TRANSPORT Chris Bryant: My right hon. and learned Friend Network Rail: Directors the Leader of the House of Commons and I are fully committed to making sure that Ministers give Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for faithful, honest, complete and timely answers to written Transport what plans his Department has to appoint a parliamentary questions. We keep the matter under special director for Network Rail. [277841] continuous review. 613W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 614W

TREASURY Jane Kennedy: The Government and the devolved Administrations recently announced the appointment Banks: Iceland of Lord John Krebs as the Chair of the Adaptation Sub-Committee to the Committee on Climate Change. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer As the Chair of the Sub-Committee, Lord Krebs will with reference to the answer to the hon. Member for also sit on the main committee. The UK Government Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) of 11 November and the devolved Administrations are in the process of 2008, Official Report, column 1083W, on bank services, appointing five to eight board members to serve on the for what reasons people with funds held in Icelandic sub-committee. We hope to have the sub-committee in banks were not alerted to the circumstances which place by the end of June and the first meeting should prompted the Financial Services Authority to intensify take place as soon as possible after that. its supervision of retail deposit-taking by Icelandic banks at the beginning of 2008. Deer [270426] Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Ian Pearson: The authorities acted responsibly throughout Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what advice his and, for very good reasons, have a policy of not commenting Department has issued to local authorities on the publicly on individual institutions. In line with usual control of wild deer. [278026] practice, the authorities did not make people aware of these circumstances. To have done so in the case of the Huw Irranca-Davies: DEFRA has not issued any Icelandic banks could have caused precisely the advice on deer specifically for local authorities. For consequences that the authorities were seeking to avoid. those involved in deer management, advice on the sustainable management of deer is available from the Excise Duties: Motor Vehicles Deer Initiative. Some local authorities will have received advice from the Deer Initiative on local deer management Mr. David Hamilton: To ask the Chancellor of the issues relevant to their area. Exchequer (1) what estimate he has made of the likely Food Supply effects on levels of (a) carbon dioxide emissions and (b) revenue which would accrue to the Exchequer Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for arising from a change in rates of motorcycle vehicle Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what financial excise duty to the same carbon dioxide emission scales and other support his Department has made available as private cars; [278003] to encourage the development of local food hubs; how (2) what recent consideration he has given to the many such food hubs are in existence; and at which merits of setting vehicle excise duty bands for locations. [276892] motorcycles on the same carbon dioxide emissions scale as that applying to private cars. [278004] Jane Kennedy: I recognise the benefits of well run local food hubs in helping to make it easier for local Mr. Timms: The information requested is not available. food producers to access markets, including public sector Carbon dioxide based vehicle excise duty for cars customers. Under the Regional Food Strategy both rests on data produced through the European-wide DEFRA and the regional development agencies have system of vehicle type approval. This system does not provided support for a number of initiatives, including produce carbon dioxide data for motorcycles. Vehicle food hubs, aimed at facilitating access to market for excise duty for motorcycles is instead set on an engine local food producers. capacity basis. Funding to encourage the development of local food hubs in England has come from a number of sources: Revenue and Customs The additional £5 million over five years (2003-04 to 2007-08) which DEFRA made available to Food from Britain (FFB) to Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer support the quality regional food sector; whether HM Revenue and Customs offices were open The regional development agencies’ (RDA) single pot funding; [277779] to receive post on Saturday 31 January 2009. The Rural Development Programme; and Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs Enquiry The private sector. Centres were closed on Saturday 31 January 2009. Post Examples of food hub-related activities which have found and opened on Monday 2 February 2009 was received public funding include: treated as received on Friday 30 January 2009. Under the previous England Rural Development Programme a 50 per cent. Rural Enterprise Scheme grant of £228,500 which helped fund the conversion of existing traditional buildings into Plumgarths Farm Shop and Lakelands Food Park in Cumbria; ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS The Ludlow Food Centre which has received funding (£159,000) from the West Midlands RDA; and Climate Change A study being funded by the South East of England, East of England and London RDAs examining the feasibility of using Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for food hubs to serve London with local and regional produce. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects In addition to the above, other examples of food hub the first meeting of the Adaptation Sub-Committee of facilities can be found in Bedfordshire (Woburn Country the Committee on Climate Change to take place. Foods), Essex (Ashlyns Organics); Shropshire (Weston [277394] Park); Nottinghamshire (Southglade Food Park) and 615W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 616W

Cumbria (Redhills near Penrith). In the south-west, the JUSTICE development of food distribution hubs is being driven by local demand through the supermarkets and food Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings manufacturers without the need for public sector intervention. Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Finally, DEFRA has also helped fund, via FFB, the how many officials in his Department have been research by Westley Consulting Ltd. and John Geldard suspended from duty in each month since January (Plumgarths Farm) which led to the ‘Supplying Local 2007. [274190] Food to Mainstream Customers’ report published in August 2008. A copy of this report, which recognised Mr. Straw: In the Ministry of Justice (MoJ), excluding the role that well run food hubs could play but was the National Offender Management Service (NOMS), cautious about recommending public investment in central records of suspension exist from April 2007 establishing more hubs, can be found at the Westley only. Consulting website. The information for MoJ excluding NOMS is set out in the following table: Members: Correspondence Number of suspensions Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when the Minister April 6 of State plans to respond to the letter from the right May 2 hon. Member for West Derbyshire of 30 March 2009 on June 4 the dumping of industrial waste in Roston. [278095] July 5 August 4 Jane Kennedy: I have now responded to the right hon. September 5 Member’s letter. October 5 November 0 Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Secretary of State for December 5 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he plans to respond to the letter from the right hon. Member for West Derbyshire of 4 March 2009 on charges on 2008 compost. [278096] January 5 February 2 Jane Kennedy: I responded to the right hon. Member’s March 18 letter on 3 June. April 1 May 3 Renewable Energy: Waste June 5 July 3 Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for August 0 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) whether his September 3 Department has received any representations on October 0 whether the reference to fuels manufactured from November 1 waste in the Environmental Permitting (England and December 0 Wales) Regulations 2007 Schedule 1, Part 2, Section 1.1 reflects the Court of Appeal ruling in the OSS Group v. 2009 Environment Agency case; and if he will make a January 3 statement; [275101] February 2 (2) whether his Department has received any March 0 representations on whether the reference to fuels manufactured from waste in the Environmental These figures represent the number of new suspensions Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2007 in each month; there is no cumulative element to the Schedule 1, Part 2, Section 1.1 means that used cooling totals. oil should be treated as a virgin oil if it has met the The National Offender Management Service does Carnwath test as set by the Environment Agency. not hold the requested information centrally, and to obtain [275102] the information now would incur disproportionate cost. Departmental Procurement Jane Kennedy: DEFRA officials have received correspondence from representatives of companies whose Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice business involves the processing of waste to produce what the names and addresses were of each organisation fuels about issues arising from the Court of Appeal that supplied goods and services to his Department in ruling in the case of OSS Group v. Environment Agency. 2008-09, based on the purchase order data held in the Officials at the Environment Agency have also held Department’s financial database. [276413] meetings with the companies concerned to discuss these issues. The Government’s response to the amendment Mr. Straw: The information requested will be placed of the Environmental Permitting (England Wales) in the Libraries of the House. The data provided have Regulations 2007 in the light of the Court’s decision is been sourced from two Enterprise Resource Planning still being considered. Systems, one from the system covering the Courts, 617W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 618W

Tribunals, Former Department for Constitutional Affairs, Football: Drugs and the other from the National Offender Management Service System. It is a complete list of suppliers against Hugh Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for whom a purchase order was raised in the 2008-09 Culture, Media and Sport when the National Anti- financial year across each system. Doping Organisation expects the governing authorities for football to have introduced anti-doping procedures Monarchy: Succession compliant with its requirements; and if he will make a statement. [277268] Lynne Featherstone: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice to which Commonwealth governments the Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 1 June 2009]: UK Government have indicated a wish to discuss reform of Sport, the UK’s National Anti-doping Organisation, is male-preference primogeniture for the line of succession currently working with the Football Association (FA) for the Crown; and if he will make a statement. [273805] to ensure that their anti-doping rules and procedures are compliant with the World Anti-Doping Code (WADA) Mr. Straw: Any changes to the rules of succession and accompanying international standards. would have to be agreed to by all Commonwealth We understand that the FA Council will be considering countries of which The Queen is head of state. Discussions this when it meets over the summer to agree their rules have started and are continuing but it would be for the 2009-10 season. Government expect the FA to inappropriate to release details at this stage. ensure that their anti-doping rules and procedures are fully compliant with WADA’s code and standards. Restorative Justice National Anti-Doping Organisation Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what estimate he has made of the rate of Hugh Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for reoffending among those who have completed high- Culture, Media and Sport what assessment he has visibility community payback schemes. [278102] made of progress towards a fully independent National Anti-Doping Organisation; and if he will make a Mr. Hanson: Reoffending rates for those who have statement. [277270] completed high-visibility community payback schemes are unavailable as the data source used to produce Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 1 June 2009]: I met reoffending rates does not differentiate between those recently with UK Sport, who are leading on the project on the scheme, and those who are not. to establish the new stand alone National Anti-Doping Reoffending rates are available for those who serve Organisation (NADO), UK Anti-Doping. both community and suspended sentence orders with At this meeting, UK Sport reported that work to an unpaid work requirement; however the latest available establish UK Anti-Doping is progressing well, with the data are for those who commenced such a sentence project on-schedule to meet vesting, as proposed, by the between 1 January and 31 March 2007. The high-visibility end of the year. community payback scheme did not commence until December 2008, therefore reoffending rates for the period National Anti-Doping Organisation: Finance covered by the scheme will not be available until data for the 2009 cohort are published in 2011. Hugh Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what budget has been allocated to the National Anti-Doping Organisation in CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT each year to 2012. [277269] Mr. Sutcliffe [holding answer 1 June 2009]: For 2009-10, Brass Bands: Finance the budget for the National Anti-Doping Organisation (NADO), currently delivered by UK Sport, is approximately Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, £7 million, including £1.8 million that has been budgeted Media and Sport how much the Big Lottery Fund for transition costs toward the establishment of the new awarded to brass bands in each of the last five years. stand alone NADO, named UK Anti-Doping. [275822] The budget for 2010-11, the first full year of operation for UK Anti-Doping, is approximately £7.2 million. Barbara Follett: The Big Lottery Fund has been able to supply the following figures for the value of relevant Funding for subsequent years will be finalised in light grants across the UK in the last five years, including of the Department’s forthcoming comprehensive spending grants made under the Awards for All joint scheme: review settlement.

Total value of grants (£) Sports: Finance

2004-05 81,314 2005-06 151,542 Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 176,572 Culture, Media and Sport how much of the £36 million 2007-08 109,663 allocated to the Sport Unlimited scheme has been spent; and how many of the 4,000 planned taster 2008-09 281,721 sessions have taken place. [277134] 619W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 620W

Mr. Sutcliffe: Sport England has advised that in the Our contract with Employment Conditions Abroad first year of the three year Sport Unlimited scheme, is ongoing. We anticipate the cost of the contract and £10,487,000 has been spent from the year 1 funding their services to be approximately £84,525 in 2009. allocation of £10,500,000. Prices have been frozen at 2008’s rates. The Sport Unlimited scheme will enable 900,000 more 11 to 19-year-olds to become involved in a range Occupied Territories: Housing of sports. Sport England will publish end of year results on year 1 of Sport Unlimited later on this month, which Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign will include information about the number of individuals and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has participating in the scheme against year 1 targets. Sport received on the expansion of settlements in the West England has undertaken to write to the hon. Member Bank; and if he will make a statement. [277207] with a copy of their report. The number of taster sessions that have taken place is David Miliband: Settlement expansion is a major not recorded centrally and could be provided only at obstacle to peace. We receive regular reports, including disproportionate cost. from the Israeli non-governmental organisation Peace Now. During 2008, Peace Now reported that the West Bank settler population increased 15,000 to 285,000. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE They report that there are plans for at least 73,300 additional housing units in the West Bank. Aung San Suu Kyi We are also deeply concerned about any changes to the character of East Jerusalem. Mr. Keith Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for I raised this issue during my meeting with Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Minister Lieberman and in my statement to the UN discussions he has had with his Japanese counterpart Security Council on 11 May 2009. We will continue to on the arrest and trial of Aung San Suu Kyi. [277407] press the Israeli Government to freeze all such activity. Bill Rammell: The Japanese Government released a statement on 15 May 2009 expressing their deep concern at the arrest of Aung San Suu Kyi. The Japanese WORK AND PENSIONS Foreign Minister, Hirofumi Nakasone, raised Aung San Suu Kyi’s detention with his Burmese counterpart on 25 Children: Maintenance May 2009. We have raised her current trial and ongoing detention with the Japanese at official level. Japan, like Mr. Betts: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and the UK, is a major contributor of humanitarian aid to Pensions how many times the Child Maintenance and Burma and we remain in regular contact concerning the Enforcement Commission has (a) deducted maintenance current situation both at the UN Security Council and payments or arrears from bank accounts without going via the UN Secretary-General’s Group of Friends of through a court, (b) issued a liability order under Burma. section 32M of the Child Support Act 1991, (c) applied Most recently, I spoke with the Japanese Foreign to a court for (i) a disqualification from holding or Minister on 25 May 2009 in Vietnam. I also discussed obtaining a passport and (ii) a curfew and (d) recovered Aung San Suu Kyi’s arrest and the situation in Burma arrears from a deceased person’s estate. [277682] with Asian and European Ministers at the Asia-Europe Kitty Ussher: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Meeting in Hanoi on 25-26 May 2009 and at the Commission is responsible for the child maintenance EU-ASEAN Summit in Phnom Penh on 27-28 May 2009. system. I have therefore asked the child maintenance Employment Conditions Abroad commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the information requested. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Stephen Geraghty Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much his In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Department has paid Employment Conditions Abroad Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary in each year since the inception of the contract; and of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner. The Child Support Agency is now the responsibility what the future monetary value of any outstanding of the Child Maintenance Enforcement Commission. contracts is. [275460] You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how many times the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission Gillian Merron: We do not hold figures for spending has (a) deducted maintenance payments or arrears from bank on this contract before 2004. To recalculate them would accounts without going through a court, (b) issued a Liability incur disproportionate cost. The cost of the contract to Order under section 32M of the Child Support Act 1991, (c) applied the Foreign and Commonwealth Office each year since to a court for (i) a disqualification from holding or obtaining a then has been: passport and (ii) a curfew and (d) recovered arrears from a deceased person’s estate. [277682] Cost (£) The new enforcement powers required to allow the Commission to take the actions noted in your question are provided by the 2004 72,632.61 Child Maintenance and Other Payments Act 2008 and are yet to 2005 76,750.99 be commenced. It is therefore not possible to provide the requested 2006 78,472.37 information at this time. 2007 83,425.00 The Commission plans to commence the deduction order 2008 89,299.87 powers later this year to administratively remove funds from bank accounts, either periodically or in a lump sum, without going to 621W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 622W court. A Deduction Order can be used in cases where a Deduction If customers are unable to call Jobseeker Direct on from Earnings Order cannot, for example, where the non-resident the 0845 number, Jobcentre Plus offices have touch parent is self-employed. screen Jobpoint terminals installed for customers to use No dates have yet been set to for implementation of Administrative to access the same full range of vacancies available Liability Orders, application to court for passport disqualification through Jobseeker Direct. In addition, all vacancies can / curfew, or recovery of maintenance arrears from a deceased be accessed online via the Directgov Jobseekers website person’s estate. and there are normally places available locally, such as I am sorry on this occasion I can not be more helpful. libraries, which offer free internet access to jobseekers who are unable to get to a jobcentre or unable to access Cold Weather Payments: Hendon the internet in any other way. Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many pensioners in Hendon constituency Jobseeker’s Allowance received cold weather payments in 2008-09; and what the average amount received by such individuals was. Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for Work [272299] and Pensions pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Cardiff of 10 March 2009, Official Report, Kitty Ussher: Information on the number of pensioners column 269W, on jobseeker’s allowance, what (a) in Hendon who received Cold Weather Payments in quantitative and (b) qualitative evaluation has been 2008-09 is not available. Hendon constituency is linked undertaken of (i) the extent to which signposting takes to Heathrow weather station which triggered once in place and (ii) the outcomes it achieves; and if he will 2008-09. make a statement. [264352] The amount received by eligible pensioners was £25 for each week that the cold weather payment was triggered Mr. McNulty: The administration of Jobcentre Plus in their area. is a matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. Jobcentre Plus: Manpower Member with the information requested.

Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Members: Correspondence and Pensions with reference to the answer of 26 November 2008, Official Report, column 1980W, on Jobcentre Plus: manpower, if he will provide a description of each Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for job in Jobcentre Plus in each pay grade. [249409] Work and Pensions pursuant to the oral answer to the hon. Member for Lichfield, Official Report,11May Mr. McNulty: The administration of Jobcentre Plus 2009, columns 545-6, when he plans to write to the is a matter for the acting chief executive of Jobcentre hon. Member for Lichfield. [278031] Plus, Mel Groves. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member with the information requested. Mr. McNulty: wrote to the hon. Member for Lichfield on 1 June 2009. Jobcentre Plus: Telephone Services Pension Protection Fund Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions for what reasons jobseeker’s allowance customers are required to ring 0845 Miss Kirkbride: To ask the Secretary of State for telephone numbers to apply for jobs on Jobseeker Work and Pensions what the assets of the Pension Direct; what free alternatives there are to this service; Protection Fund have been in each year since 2005; and if he will make a statement. [271324] what payments have been made from that fund in each such year; and what pension payments he expects to be Mr. McNulty [holding answer 27 April 2009]: The made from that fund in each of the next six years. cost of calling 0845 numbers remains lower than many [276837] alternatives and, where it is possible, using BT landlines to call 0845 numbers is usually the lowest cost option. Ms Rosie Winterton: The information requested is Research was carried out in 2008 to estimate the additional given in the following table. telephony charges DWP would incur by switching all existing 0845 services to 0800. We do not have a precise £ amount, but it is estimated that the switch would cost Financial year PPF Assets1 PPF Payments2

£10 million a year. In addition, there would be one-off 3 transition costs of changing literature and raising awareness 2005-06 141,430,000 Nil with staff, estimated at £1 million. 2006-07 835,514,000 1,402,000 2007-08 1,718,594,000 17,313,000 BT account for two-thirds of landline provision and 2008-09 4— 4— our recent research shows that over 80 per cent. of our 1 Total assets less current liabilities (not taking into account the long customers contact us using landlines. We believe that term liabilities of the fund). 0845 numbers offer the best solution for the majority of 2 Compensation payments. our customers, including those wishing to apply for jobs 3 No schemes transferred. with Jobseeker Direct. We understand that not everyone 4 The PPF is in the process of finalising this information for the has access to a BT landline and if that is the case, we annual report and accounts which will be published in the autumn. will always call back if asked to do so, so that we absorb Forecast information on expected pension compensation the cost of the call. payments for the next six years is not available. 623W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 624W

Miss Kirkbride: To ask the Secretary of State for Written Questions: Government Responses Work and Pensions pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Coventry South of 13 May 2009, Official Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 865, on Rover Group: pensions, what Work and Pensions when he plans to answer Question estimate his Department made of the extra costs which 258770, on deprived areas funds, tabled on 20 February would be imposed consequent on the changes to the 2009. [265555] operation of the Pension Protection Fund in respect of people who took early retirement before the relevant Mr. McNulty: I replied to the hon. Member’s question scheme entered that fund; and what assessment he on 30 April 2009, Official Report, column 1488W. made of the capacity of the Pension Protection Fund levy to meet those extra costs. [276895] DEFENCE Ms Rosie Winterton: As at April 2008, the estimated Climate Change cost of removing the 90 per cent. compensation limit and the compensation cap for the people who had taken Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for early retirement before April 2005 in a scheme that had Defence what steps his Department has taken to adapt already been admitted into the Pension Protection Fund its activities to climate change in the last two years. was around £4 million. That figure is based on the [277646] number of individuals affected at that time and does not reflect the costs in relation to early retirees in Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD is involved in the cross- schemes which entered the PPF after April 2008 or Government Adapting to Climate Change Programme, those which may do so in the future as such information which brings together and drives forward work on is not readily available. The pension protection levy is a adapting to climate change across Government and the matter for the board of the Pension Protection Fund, public sector in England. The programme was established but any extra costs would be borne by levy payers. in January 2008, and its work includes implementation of the adaptation aspects of the Climate Change Act, The estimated costs are one factor in the Government’s such as development of the national Climate Change decision not to change the way in which the Pension Risk Assessment. Information about the programme Protection Fund treats early retirees. The second is and its work can be found at the following link: equality of treatment between those people who receive PPF compensation. Removing the compensation limit www.defra.gov/adaptation. and the cap for some individuals who were under scheme As well as working together to tackle issues that pension age at the time their pension scheme entered affect all Departments and their work, each Government the Pension Protection Fund would introduce inequalities Department is adapting to climate change in its own in treatment of individuals under normal pension age operations and policies. and lead to a two tier system. The 90 per cent. limit and In December 2008 the Ministry of Defence published the cap ensure consistent treatment based on the individual’s its climate change strategy, which sets out how the age at the time their pension scheme enters the PPF. Department will adapt our policy planning, equipment They ensure that people who are able to take early and estate to a changing climate. Information about this retirement are not placed in a more beneficial position can be found at the following link: than those who stay in employment. www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/73ED201B-CC03-41B4-8936- 6BED49469D6E/0/ClimateChangeStrategy2009.pdf The Department has ongoing research into climate Pensioners: Poverty change impacts around the globe to determine the potential security threats that may arise as a result of climate change and how our policies and force development Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and may need to alter to reflect this. Pensions how many pensioners were estimated to be living in poverty in each English region in (a) 1997 and For our estate, we are in the early phases of developing a Climate Impacts Risk Assessment Methodology that (b) 2007-08. [276265] will consider the risks, incidents and geological effects associated with climate change events. We have begun Ms Rosie Winterton: Poverty is a complex and the first pilot exercise for this model, the findings of multidimensional issue and, as such, there are many which will be built into our long-term strategic development possible measures of poverty. plans. Our public service agreement “Tackle poverty and promote greater independence and wellbeing in later Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for life” includes a range of indicators related to low income Defence what estimate he has made of his for pensioners. These are relative low income (below 50 Department’s potential gross (a) costs and (b) savings and 60 per cent. contemporary median household income), arising from its climate change adaptation measures in and absolute low income (below 60 per cent. of 1998-99 the next three years. [277726] median income uprated in line with prices), all measured Mr. Kevan Jones: It is not currently possible to provide after housing costs have been taken into account. estimates of the potential costs and savings arising from The estimated number of pensioners living below MOD climate change adaptation measures over the each of these low income thresholds by each English next three years. It has, however, been shown in the region in 1996-97 and 2007-08 are published in Households Stern Review on the Economics of Climate Change that Below Average Income 1994-95 to 2007-08, a copy of timely and well-targeted climate adaptation measures which is available in the Library. will yield benefits in excess of their costs. Some of these 625W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 626W benefits will accrue to Departments as cost-savings over current address records, of those joining the Royal the next three years, and in future years. The main Fleet Auxiliary by postcodes for the North East. For rationale for MOD investment is to address climate risk this information the North East has been identified as and contribute to reduction of the UK’s vulnerability incorporating the area from Berwick upon Tweed in the to longer-term climate change impacts. north, Barnards Castle in the west and Middlesbrough/ The Government is undertaking a Climate Change Stockton/Darlington in the south. Risk Assessment and Economic Analysis, which will provide estimates of the costs and benefits of adaptation Age on to the UK. This analysis will be presented to Parliament recruitment 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 in 2011. Under 26 71 68 34 58 20 The Government will also be publishing supplementary 26 to 31 19 25 17 15 10 appraisal guidance this summer. This will help to ensure 32 to 36 15 15 12 14 7 that adaptation measures are designed and implemented 37 to 41 16 27 11 17 14 in a cost-effective manner. Over 41 51 44 58 55 26 Overall UK 172 179 132 159 77 Defence Storage and Distribution Agency: total Redundancies Postcode Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence DH 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 (1) whether a health and safety impact assessment has been conducted on the proposed programme of Under 26 — — — — — redundancies at the Defence Storage and Distribution 26 to 31 — — — — — Agency; [277902] 32 to 36 — 1 — — — 37 to 41 — — — — — (2) what involvement Ministers from his Department Over411— ——— have had in the development of proposals to make Overall 11 000 posts redundant at the Defence Storage and Distribution total Agency; [277903] (3) what the reasons are for the proposed programme Postcode of redundancies at the Defence Storage and DL 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Distribution Agency; [277904] Under 26 — — 1 — — (4) how many redundancies are planned at the 26 to 31 — — — — — Defence Storage and Distribution Agency; and at 32 to 36 — — — — — which sites such redundancies are planned; [277905] 37 to 41 — — — — — (5) what recent assessment he has made of the merits Over 41 — — — — 1 of the proposed programme of redundancies at the Overall 00 101 Defence Storage and Distribution Agency on the total defence supply chain; and if he will make a statement; [277906] Postcode (6) if the Government will suspend the planned NE 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 programme of redundancies at the Defence Storage and Distribution Agency for the period of the suspension of Under 26 3 7 1 4 1 the Chief Operating Officer and the Financial Director. 26 to 31 — 2 — — 2 32 to 36 1 — 1 2 — [277912] 37 to 41 2 — 1 1 — Mr. Quentin Davies: The Defence Storage and Over41—1 431 Distribution Agency’s proposed planned programme of Overall 6 10 7 10 4 efficiencies is currently under review and I will write to total the hon. Member once a decision has been made. Postcode Royal Fleet Auxiliary: Manpower TD 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Under 26 — — — — — Mr. Hepburn: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 26 to 31 — — — — — (1) how many people under the age of (a) 26, (b) 31, 32 to 36 — — — — — (c) 36 and (d) 41 years and resident in (i) Jarrow 37 to 41 — — — — — constituency, (ii) South Tyneside, (iii) the North East Over 41 — — — 1 — and (iv) the UK have been recruited to the Royal Fleet Overall 00 010 Auxiliary Service in the last five years; [277790] total (2) how many people resident in (a) Jarrow constituency, (b) South Tyneside, (c) the North East and (d) the Postcode UK have been recruited to the Royal Fleet Auxiliary TS 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Service in the last five years. [277791] Under 26 3 2 — — — 26 to 31 — — — — — Mr. Kevan Jones: The Royal Navy does not hold the 32 to 36 — — — — — information in the format requested. However, it is able 37 to 41 1 1 — — — to provide figures for the residency, which is taken from 627W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 628W

Table 1. Number of deaths where epilepsy1 was mentioned on the death Postcode certificate, England and Wales2, 2003-20073 TS 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Deaths (persons) Over 41 — — — 1 1 Year All ages Under 25 Overall 43 011 2003 2,277 195 total 2004 2,100 179 The figures for 2009 are provided up until 31 May. 2005 2,269 192 2006 2,251 194 Somalia: Piracy 2007 2,240 175 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) codes G40-G41. Deaths are included Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence where epilepsy was recorded as the underlying cause of death or pursuant to the answer of 28 April 2009, Official mentioned anywhere else on the death certificate. Report, column 1159W, on Somalia: piracy, whether all 2 Figures for England and Wales include deaths of non-residents. of the 45 individuals captured by Royal Navy forces 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year. were Somali nationals; and if he will make a statement. Departmental ICT [273046] Nadine Dorries: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The eight suspected pirates who of Lancaster what steps his Department is taking to were detained on 11 November 2008 and were subsequently increase the effectiveness of the use of information transferred to the Kenyan authorities were Somali nationals. communications technology in (a) the Cabinet Office, We believe that the remaining 37 suspects, who have (b) 10 Downing Street and (c) the civil service. [271089] been questioned but not detained by Royal Naval personnel, were also Somali nationals. However, we cannot be sure Mr. Byrne: The Department is improving the effectiveness that they were all Somali nationals as we are almost of its use of information communications technology wholly reliant on their own statements to determine (ICT) by leading and participating in the Public Sector their nationality. Flex framework. Public Sector Flex is an ICT shared service for the public sector offering a core desktop Trident Submarines computing environment and a comprehensive range of additional ICT services. It will provide economies of scale and significant cost reductions, but with clear Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence service quality standards. whether the expenditure of £100 million to design a new missile compartment for the Vanguard replacement The Prime Minister’s Office is an integral part of submarine announced in 2009 was included in the cost Cabinet Office and therefore follows its guidelines and figures for the new submarine provided in the 2006 policies in the use of ICT. Defence White Paper. [277759] The Government’s strategy for increasing the effectiveness of its use of technology more widely in the civil service Mr. Quentin Davies: The provision necessary to deliver is set out in “Transformational Government—Enabled the common missile compartment design requirement by Technology” (Cm. 6683). The latest Annual Report was included within the £11-14 billion estimate for the is available at: submarines contained in the 2006 White Paper (Cm 6994). http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/cio/transformational _government/annual_report2007.aspx and is available in the Libraries of the House. Honours: Arts DUCHY OF LANCASTER Mr. Soames: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Death: Epilepsy Lancaster who the Chair of the Arts and Media Honours Committee is; on what date the appointment Keith Vaz: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of was made; and for how long a term. [273105] Lancaster how many people (a) in total and (b) under Mr. Byrne [holding answer 6 May 2009]: The Chair the age of 25 have died with epilepsy being recorded as of the Arts and Media Honours Committee is Lord a contributing factor to the death in each of the last Stevenson of Coddenham. five years. [278133] He was appointed in line with the recruitment process Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within set out in the Government’s White Paper ‘Reform of the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have the Honours System’ (Cm 6479), which was a response asked the Authority to reply. to the Public Administration Select Committee’s July 2004 Report ‘A Matter of Honour: Reforming the Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated June 2009: Honours System’ (HC212-I), and Sir Hayden Phillips’ As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your report on his review of the honours system. recent question asking how many people (a) in total and (b) under the age of 25 have died with epilepsy being recorded as a contributing The post of the Chair of the Arts and Media Honours factor to the death in each of the last five years. (278133) Committee was advertised in the Sunday Times on The attached table provides the number of deaths where epilepsy 9 March 2008 and on the Public Appointments Unit’s was mentioned anywhere on the death certificate for persons (a) website. Lord Stevenson’s application was considered of all ages and (b) under the age of 25 in England and Wales, for by an interview panel which drew up a shortlist of the years 2003 to 2007 (the latest year available). candidates who were interviewed. 629W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 630W

Lord Stevenson was appointed on 18 June 2008. The Mr. Thomas: I apologise to the hon. Member for the position is unpaid. The normal term of appointment is delay in responding. I answered the hon. Member’s three years. correspondence on 3 June.

Minimum Wage: Darlington Sir Michael Spicer: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Mr. Milburn: To ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Reform when a reply will be sent to the letter from the Lancaster what estimate he has made of the number of hon. Member for West Worcestershire, dated 18 March people in Darlington constituency whose income rose 2009, transferred from the Treasury on 27 March, PO following the introduction of the national minimum Ref: 1/69691/2009), about tax. [277102] wage. [275750] Ian Pearson [holding answer 1 June 2009]: I responded Kevin Brennan: The information requested falls within to the hon. Member on 14 May. I apologise for the the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have delay which was caused by the current high volumes of asked the authority to reply. correspondence. Letter from Karen Dunnell: Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Minister of State, As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory recent Parliamentary Question asking for an estimate of the number of people in Darlington constituency whose income rose Reform when the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of following the introduction of the national minimum wage. (275750) State plans to respond to the letter from the right hon. Estimates for the number of jobs paid below the national Member for West Derbyshire of 17 March 2009 on minimum wage by Parliamentary Constituency are not available. problems with a business. [278094] For the UK as a whole, the number of employee jobs paid below the 1999 national minimum wage in 1998 was 1,280 thousand Mr. McFadden: I apologise to the right hon. Member (6 per cent), in 1999 it was estimated at 490 thousand jobs (2 per for the delay in responding. The right hon. Member will cent). receive a response shortly by the relevant Minister. A guide to measuring low pay and associated articles can be found on the National Statistics website at: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/StatBase/Product.asp?vlnk=5837 ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE

BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY Tidal Impoundment REFORM Consumer Credit: Licensing 7. Mr. David Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment he John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, has made of the viability of tidal impoundment schemes Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory for electricity generation. [277924] Reform what recent discussions he has had with the Office of Fair Trading on renewal of consumer credit Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Severn Tidal Power feasibility licences. [277507] study led by my Department is investigating the potential Mr. Thomas: The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is for tidal impoundment in the Severn Estuary. Work so responsible for the licensing of businesses who offer far suggests that three barrage and two lagoon options credit services. The Department for Business, Enterprise are potentially commercially and technically viable. and Regulatory Reform maintains a continuous dialogue with the OFT regarding all aspects of its regulatory Estuaries: Electricity Generation business. Economic and Monetary Union 8. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change which estuaries in Great Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department Britain are being considered for possible electricity- for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform what generating barrages; and if he will make a statement. activities have been undertaken by his Department’s [277925] Euro Minister in that capacity. [277164] Mr. Mike O’Brien: Tidal power generation is under Mr. Thomas: Euro Ministers are responsible for euro consideration by the Government in the Severn Estuary, preparations in their department and attend Euro Ministers and by private business consortia and community interest Steering Group meetings. Meetings are held only when groups in a number of other estuaries including the necessary to discuss practical preparations to ensure a Mersey, the Solway Firth and the Thames. smooth changeover. Members: Correspondence Policy Adaptation

Steve Webb: To ask the Minister of State, Department 9. Miss Anne McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform when for Energy and Climate Change when he last met the he plans to reply to the letter of 19 January 2009 from Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural the hon. Member for Northavon sent on behalf of Mr. I Affairs to discuss Government policy on adaptation to Hill of Wick on consumer protection. [269023] climate change. [277927] 631W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 632W

Joan Ruddock: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of announcement of £90 million of public funding for State for Energy and Climate Change and DECC officials FEED studies. The competition is now moving to the meet regularly with colleagues in DEFRA to discuss a next stage of invitation to negotiate. range of issues, including adapting to climate change. In addition, the Chancellor announced proposals to It is essential that our departments work closely expand our demonstration effort through a financial together, so that our work on managing the impacts of mechanism to support up to four demonstration projects, climate change in the UK complements and reinforces including the competition. our work to cut greenhouse gas emissions. Climate Change: USA Nuclear Waste Export Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for 10. Mr. John Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of Energy and Climate Change when he last met his US State for Energy and Climate Change when he next counterpart to discuss climate change. [277931] plans to review the effectiveness of the law on the export of nuclear waste; and if he will make a Joan Ruddock: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of statement. [277928] State has held a number of discussions with senior figures in the US administration, including the Climate Mr. Mike O’Brien: Current legislation, some put in Change Envoy and the Secretary of Energy during his place as recently as December, effectively controls the recent visit to Washington and during subsequent export of nuclear waste. discussions at the US chaired Major Economies Forum Carbon Capture and in the margins of other multilateral meetings.

11. Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Mobile Phones Energy and Climate Change what assessment his Department has made of the current efficacy of carbon Mr. Hoban: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy capture technologies in coal-fired power stations. and Climate Change how many (a) BlackBerry devices [277932] and (b) mobile telephones have been lost by (i) Ministers, (ii) special advisers and (iii) civil servants in Mr. Mike O’Brien: There are a few small scale CCS his Department in each year since its creation. [274474] pilots operating successfully around the world already. The real issue now is large commercial-scale demonstration Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department uses BlackBerrys and we announced in April plans to support up to four and mobile phones provided by both the Department of such demonstration projects in the UK. Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform and Department of Environment Food and Rural Affairs. Offshore Wind Farms The detailed process of reallocating resources from these Departments has not yet been completed and 12. Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for losses of these devices will be included in any BERR or Energy and Climate Change when he next expects to DEFRA returns. meet representatives of renewable energy companies to discuss offshore wind farms. [277935] Energy: Meters

Mr. Mike O’Brien: DECC Ministers and officials David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for regularly meet renewable energy companies. For example, Energy and Climate Change when he expects smart I am scheduled to speak at the British Wind Energy meters to have been installed in every home in North Association’s Offshore Wind conference on 24 June. West Leicestershire constituency. [277933] Coal-fired Power Stations Mr. Mike O’Brien: Last year the Government announced 13. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for their intention to mandate smart metering for all Energy and Climate Change what his timetable is for households. This will be a major project involving the consultation on the framework for development of new installation of about 47 million smart meters. There is a coal-fired power stations; and if he will make a substantial programme of work to complete to prepare for the roll-out, but we have set an indicative timetable statement. [277937] for a completion of the roll-out by the end of 2020. Mr. Mike O’Brien: We plan to publish it soon. Warm Front Scheme Carbon Sequestration John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Illsley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many complaints he has and Climate Change what progress has been made on received about the operation of the Warm Front the establishment of plants to demonstrate carbon scheme in 2009. [277934] capture and storage technology; and if he will make a statement. [277930] Joan Ruddock: The Department has only recorded the number of complaints it has received about Warm Mr. Mike O’Brien: In Budget 2009, the Government Front since the beginning of April this year. Up until announced plans to accelerate the demonstration of the end of May, DECC has received 275 expressions of carbon capture and storage. This included the dissatisfaction with the scheme. 633W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 634W

Wind Power 40 per cent. by end of December 2007; 60 per cent. by end of December 2008; Alun Michael: To ask the Secretary of State for 75 per cent. by end of December 2009; Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward 90 per cent. by end of December 2011. measures to promote community ownership of wind energy generation. [277926] The method of reporting against the target is based on the performance of the specific monthly cohort of Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Government currently support cases reaching six months. Hence all reporting is done community energy projects through the Renewables against a six months timeframe. A cohort is specified as Obligations and the Low Carbon Buildings Programme. those new applications received between 1st and 31st of each month. We have committed to feed-in tariffs for renewable energy generation, from April 2010. The conclusion measurement requires applications to be granted asylum or some form of leave to remain in Within the context of the Renewable Energy Strategy the UK, allowed at appeal or removed within 182 days the Government are considering options for greater (six months) to be counted as concluded. community involvement in the development of renewables projects. Performance against the targets has been published in National Statistics as follows: Wind Power: Health Hazards 38 per cent. of new applications received in September 2006 were concluded in six months by the end of by April 2007; Mr. Robathan: To ask the Secretary of State for 46 per cent. of new applications received in June 2007 were Energy and Climate Change what recent discussions he concluded in six months by the end of December 2007; has had with the Secretary of State for Health on the 62 per cent. of new applications received in June 2008 were effect of the operation of wind turbines on public concluded in six months by the end of December 2008. health. [277936] Published information is not available in relation to conclusion of applications in timescales other than six Mr. Mike O’Brien: My right hon. Friend the Secretary months. of State for Energy and Climate Change and his officials have had discussion with relevant Government Departments, including the Department of Health, on Borders: Personal Records the content of the suite of energy National Policy Statements (NPSs) being introduced under the Planning Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Act 2008. This will include guidance on the effects of Home Department what training UK Border Agency wind turbines. staff will receive as part of the introduction of The Government’s Planning Policy Statement (PPS) e-borders. [269240] 22 on renewable energy sets out the Government’s policies for renewable energy, which planning authorities should Jacqui Smith: e-Borders is being rolled out in a phased have regard to when preparing local development approach. In advance of each phase, a dedicated team documents and when taking planning decisions. will work closely with the business to identify staff affected and assess any required learning needs. A detailed Learning Needs Assessment, Strategy and HOME DEPARTMENT Plan for Phase 1 has been delivered and accepted and the same approach for Phase 2 is in development and Asylum will be delivered in time for roll out has been designed to support delivery. Training will be delivered either Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the directly from the e-Borders team, or via the “Train the Home Department how many and what proportion of Trainer” format, using existing agency trainers in the asylum cases were brought to a conclusion, including business. appeals, (a) within two months, (b) between two and Training includes the skills and knowledge required six months, (c) between six and 12 months and (d) to use the system and the necessary behavioural changes over 12 months in each of the last five years. [242777] to support this. Data handling and security of personal data will be an integral part of the training. Jacqui Smith [holding answer 16 December 2008]: Data on conclusion performance by year of application Crime are only available from the introduction of end-to-end processing of new asylum applications in April 2006. Prior to that date, performance targets were based on Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the the length of time it took to reach an initial decision on Home Department pursuant to the answer of 2 March an asylum application, rather than the length of time it 2009, Official Report, column 1278W, on crime: took to conclude a case. statistics, which classification each of these offences The PSA Delivery Agreement 3, Indicator 2 refers to now belongs to. [262496] the reduction in the time to conclusion of asylum application. The measure is to ensure a target percentage Jacqui Smith: The information requested is given in of cases should be resolved within six months as per the the table. Data under these new offence classifications following: will be presented for the first time in the annual crime 35 per cent. by end of April 2007; statistics to be published in July 2009. 635W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 636W

New offence classifications for offences previously classified as ‘Less serious wounding’ Components of classification 8A ‘Less serious New classifications with effect from wounding’ prior to 1 April 2008 1 April 2008 Main offence sub-heading

Wounding or inflicting grievous bodily harm, Now split into: with or without weapon. Offences against the Person Act 1861 sec 20. Class 8F: Inflicting grievous bodily harm without Most serious violence against the person. intent. Class 8G: Actual bodily harm and other injury. Other violence against the person.

Administering poison with intent to injure or Class 8K: Poisoning or female genital mutilation. Other violence against the person. annoy. Offences against the Person Act 1861 sec 24.

Drivers injuring persons by furious driving. Class 8G: Actual bodily harm and other injury. Other violence against the person. Offences against the Person Act 1861 sec 35.

Assault on person preserving wreck. Class 8G: Actual bodily harm and other injury. Other violence against the person. Offences against the Person Act 1861 sec 37.

Assault occasioning actual bodily harm. Class 8G: Actual bodily harm and other injury. Other violence against the person. Offences against the Person Act 1861 sec 47.

Assault with intent to resist apprehension. Class 8G: Actual bodily harm and other injury. Other violence against the person. Offences against the Person Act 1861 sec 38.

Owner or person in charge allowing dog to be Class 8G: Actual bodily harm and other injury. Other violence against the person. dangerously out of control in a public place injuring any person. Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 sec 3(1).

Owner or person in charge allowing dog to Class 8G: Actual bodily harm and other injury. Other violence against the person. enter a non-public place and injure any person. Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 sec 3(3).

Excise, infibulate, aid, abet, counsel. Class 8K: Poisoning or female genital mutilation. Other violence against the person. Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 sec 1(1), 2, 3 and 5.

Entry Clearances: Overseas Students when processing personal data. Personal data must not be processed unless, amongst other things, at least one Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the of the conditions in Schedule 2 to the DPA is met. In Home Department how many educational institutions the case of sensitive personal data, a condition in Schedule have received a rating of (a) A, (b) B and (c) Ffrom 3 must also be met. Consent is one condition for processing the UK Border Agency under the new Tier 4 registration personal data, but it is not the only one, and whether system. [271977] consent is required for certain processing to take place will depend upon the particular circumstances. Jacqui Smith: As of 29 April 2009, there have been Additionally the Internet Advertising Bureau has 1,491 educational establishments awarded an A rating recently launched a code of practice which focuses on and 41 educational standards awardedaBrating under free and informed consent. Many internet services providers the Tier 4 Points Based System. There is no F Rating. and key players have signed up to this, including Phorm, Internet: Data Protection Google, Yahoo, Microsoft and AOL. Anyone with concerns or complaints about the way Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for the in which personal data is being processed can refer the Home Department what requirements there are for UK matter to the Information Commissioner, the independent internet service providers wishing to use deep packet regulator for the DPA, to investigate. inspection targeted advertising systems to obtain consent from individual internet users prior to the Members: Correspondence collection of data relating to individuals. [277873] Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Straw: I have been asked to reply. the Home Department when she plans to reply to the The Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA) requires all letter of 4 December 2008 from the right hon. Member data controllers, including internet services providers, for Manchester, Gorton, with regard to Mrs. Shakeela to comply with the DPA and the data protection principles, Band. [250867] 637W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 638W

Jacqui Smith: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on 21 Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the January 2009. Home Department how many passports have been issued to individuals who were subsequently found to Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for have used the identities of deceased British citizens to the Home Department when she expects to reply to the obtain those passports in each of the last five years. letter dated 20 January 2009 from the right hon. [276830] Member for Manchester, Gorton on Mrs. Kadididja Benguana Epse Benneddall. [263653] Jacqui Smith: The following figures show the number of instances in which Identity and Passport Service has Jacqui Smith: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on 20 identified and recorded passports issued to individuals April 2009. subsequently found to have used the identities of deceased Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Secretary of State for British citizens in their applications: the Home Department when she plans to reply to the letter of 20 April 2009 from the right hon. Member for Number Manchester, Gorton with regard to Mr. S. Tygier. 2004-05 68 [277530] 2005-06 64 Jacqui Smith: I wrote to my right hon. Friend on 2006-07 7 28 May 2009. 2007-08 3 2008-09 5 Passports: Fraud These figures do not constitute part of National Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Statistics as they are based on internal management Home Department how many attempted frauds in information. The information has not been quality applications for passports have been detected by the assured under National Statistics protocols, should be Identity and Passport Service in each of the last five treated as provisional and is subject to change. years. [276827] Police: Powers Jacqui Smith: The following table gives figures for attempted frauds detected in passport applications for Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the each of the last five financial years. Home Department what timetable she has set for returning The measurement of fraud is a complex issue. Historically to custody sergeants the power to charge individuals in IPS has counted as fraudulent only those cases which it respect of all offences triable in magistrates’ courts; and has been possible to confirm absolutely as fraud. In by what date this change will have been implemented recent years IPS has been engaged in a programme of nationally. [272984] work to better understand the nature and level of fraud within the passport application process and the success Jacqui Smith: We have no plans at this stage to of existing measures in preventing fraud. This work has reverse the policy of statutory charging. established that there were a significant number of cases A recent joint HMIC/HMCPSI inspection reported in which IPS routinely prevents the issue of passports to that statutory charging has delivered good quality final fraudsters without actually recording those cases as charging decisions by prosecutors, and had caused weak fraudulent. cases to be discontinued earlier, thereby saving time and As a result, processes to provide a more accurate cost for the police service, CPS and the courts. measure of IPS performance in countering fraud have We are working with Jan Berry, the independent been developed and refined. This is the reason for the Reducing Bureaucracy Advocate, and criminal justice significant step change in success that IPS is now able to partners to improve the custody and charging processes report. IPS currently uses a tiered approach to recording so that they deliver the best possible service to the fraudulent applications based on the level of likelihood police, prosecutors and the public. of fraud. Fraud is now categorised as confirmed fraud, probable fraud and possible fraud. Written Questions: Government Responses IPS continues to undertake analysis to better understand the fraud perpetrated against it and to more accurately Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the measure and record its performance in this complex but Home Department when she plans to answer Question important area. (a) 241867, on personal data, (b) 241874, on departmental These figures do not constitute part of National procurement, (c) 241656, on visas, (d) 241601, on Statistics as they are based on internal management work permits, (e) 241609, on business visitors and (f) information. The information has not been quality 241610, on business visitors tabled by the hon. Member assured under National Statistics protocols, should be for Beaconsfield on 4 December 2008. [264900] treated as provisional and is subject to change. Jacqui Smith: My hon. Friend, the Minister of State Number for Borders and Immigration replied to the hon. Member 2004-05 1,497 for Beaconsfield on (a) 1 June 2009, Official Report, 2005-06 6,497 column 148W; (b) 20 April 2009, Official Report, 2006-07 6,108 column 163W; (c) 30 March 2009, Official Report, 2007-08 9,382 columns 952-53W; (d) 30 March 2009, Official Report, 2008-09 9,254 column 952W and (e) 30 March 2009, Official Report, column 952W. 639W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 640W

PRIME MINISTER suppliers under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998 in each year since its creation. Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations [275199]

Mr. Soames: To ask the Prime Minister who is Mr. Simon: Since its creation, the Department for responsible for determining the UK’s strategy in Innovation, Universities and Skills and its agencies have Afghanistan. [278024] not made any payments of interest to suppliers under the Late Payment of Commercial Debts (Interest) Act 1998. The Prime Minister: I accept responsibility for UK strategy in Afghanistan. I refer the hon. Member to the Departmental ICT statement I made to the House on 29 April 2009, Official Report, column 869-73. John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills what steps he has Mr. Soames: To ask the Prime Minister what recent taken to reduce the level of carbon dioxide emissions advice he has received from the Chief of the Afghan arising from the operation of ICT systems in his staff regarding future troop levels in Afghanistan. Department under the Greening Government ICT [278025] Strategy. [273566]

The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the Mr. Simon: I refer the hon. Member to the reply given answer given to him by the Secretary of State for on 27 April 2009, Official Report, column 1065W. Defence, my right hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (Mr. Hutton) on 1 June 2009, Official Report, column 12. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES Cabinet: Glasgow

SCOTLAND Mr. MacNeil: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Departmental Reviews Schools and Families (1) how much expenditure was incurred by his Department in respect of the Cabinet Mr. Vara: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009; [273927] how many (a) review and (b) taskforce projects his (2) what expenditure on (a) travel, (b) Department has commissioned in each of the last five accommodation and (c) food (i) he and (ii) officials in years; what the purpose of each such project is; when his Department incurred in connection with the each such project (i) began and (ii) was completed; Cabinet meeting in Glasgow on 16 April 2009. [273928] what the cost of each such project was; and if he will make a statement. [275968] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The total cost of travel incurred by my right hon. Friend and two officials in connection Ann McKechin: Summary information on taskforces with his visits in Glasgow and the Cabinet meeting was and other standing bodies is available in the annual £1,076.32. Cabinet Office publication “Public Bodies”. Copies of “Public Bodies 2008” are available in the Libraries of There was no departmental expenditure on the House. Detailed information on ad hoc advisory accommodation or food. bodies is available in the Office’s annual report. Children in Care

Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for INNOVATION, UNIVERSITIES AND SKILLS Children, Schools and Families how many children Departmental Billing were in residential care in each local authority area in England in each year since 2000. [276432] Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills how much (a) Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information is as follows his Department and (b) its agencies paid in interest to and has also been placed in the House Libraries.

Children in residential care at 31 March, by local authority1,2,3,4—years ending 31 March 2000 to 2008—coverage: England Children in residential care—number 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

England 8,800 8,700 8,600 8,700 8,800 8,700 8,400 8,100 8,100

North East 550 530 500 460 410 410 370 360 360 Darlington 15 15 15 20’ 15 15 15 15 15 Durham 70 55 45 55 50 40 35 40 35 Gateshead 55 55 40 40 30 30 25 30 30 Hartlepool 10 15 15 15 10 10 10 10 10 Middlesbrough 40 35 40 45 20 25 25 25 25 Newcastle Upon Tyne 75 75 55 40 45 45 40 50 50 NorthTyneside454550403030303530 Northumberland 60 50 50 50 55 65 40 40 40 Redcar and Cleveland 15 20. 15 15 10 10 15 15 20 641W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 642W

Children in residential care at 31 March, by local authority1,2,3,4—years ending 31 March 2000 to 2008—coverage: England Children in residential care—number 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

South Tyneside 45 45 40 30 35 35 35 30 30 Stockton-on-Tees 40 30 35 40 30 30 25 20 25 Sunderland 95 95 90 70 80 70 70 60 50

North West 1,550 1,450 1,440 1,520 1,480 1,450 1,370 1,300 1,230 Blackburn with 55 40 40 15 25 25 20 20 25 Darwen Blackpool 40 15 30 35 45 40 45 40 40 Bolton 353040454550504545 Bury 404025303530302525 Cheshire 40 50 50 55 60 60 60 65 65 Cumbria 45 40 45 50 40 40 35 40 35 Halton 10 10 5 25 20 20 20 20 20 Knowsley202535304030253025 Lancashire 355 290 265 245 195 190 155 160 160 Liverpool 220 185 160 175 140 90 110 95 85 Manchester 135 125 155 200 235 265 270 250 225 Oldham 60 50 50 45 45 45 45 45 45 Rochdale 35 25 15 25 35 45 35 40 35 Salford 125 130 110 105 100 110 105 95 90 Sefton 65 75 85 120 85 70 65 60 55 St. Helens 55 45 60 45 50 45 45 30 25 Stockport 75 85 65 50 55 55 45 50 50 Tameside 202530404040303025 Trafford 30 45 60 45 35 30 25 25 25 Warrington 15 20 15 10 15 15 15 10 10 Wigan 40 30 35 45 60 55 60 50 60 Wirral 35 60 65 95 95 110 75 65 50

Yorkshire and the 1,080 930 950 880 850 810 800 780 780 Humber Barnsley 65 45 55 55 45 40 40 25 30 Bradford 115 85 105 105 100 95 115 105 110 Calderdale453035253540405045 Doncaster 85 105 75 60 55 60 60 55 60 East Riding of 45 40 40 40 40 40 30 35 20 Yorkshire Kingston upon Hull, 125 95 105 85 65 55 55 50 50 City of Kirklees 70 55 65 65 45 40 40 50 55 Leeds 185 165 165 145 170 155 155 150 155 North East 35 25 20 20 30 25 20 25 20 Lincolnshire North Lincolnshire 30 30 25 25 35 25 25 20 20 NorthYorkshire202040454550454540 Rotherham 35 40 60 45 25 35 30 30 30 Sheffield 130 100 95 95 90 95 95 85 85 Wakefield 55 60 35 45 45 40 35 35 35 York 35 35 30 25 20 20 10 10 15

East Midlands 520 480 470 490 470 490 480 490 500 Derby 70 60 65 60 50 55 55 55 55 Derbyshire807055356570757570 Leicester 403015355545404545 Leicestershire302540604555505555 Lincolnshire 60 50 55 60 75 80 65 65 50 Northamptonshire 105 100 105 85 70 65 85 85 100 Nottingham 65 90 85 90 60 65 65 65 70 Nottinghamshire 60 55 50 55 50 55 45 45 50 Rutland 0 0 0 0—————

West Midlands 910 840 850 980 920 930 970 1,070 1,070 Birmingham 335 280 305 335 280 270 310 355 380 Coventry 40 45 50 55 55 60 65 80 75 643W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 644W

Children in residential care at 31 March, by local authority1,2,3,4—years ending 31 March 2000 to 2008—coverage: England Children in residential care—number 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Dudley 50 35 30 50 50 60 60 60 60 Herefordshire 30 30 25 20 10 10 15 20 20 Sandwell 30 40 50 55 55 55 65 55 40 Shropshire 35 25 30 45 25 30 35 35 35 Solihull 4030404035405080105 Staffordshire 100 85 75 115 105 90 100 100 95 Stoke-on-Trent 45 50 65 80 60 70 65 70 60 TelfordandWrekin354030254045354035 Walsall 45 60 60 45 65 60 45 45 40 Warwickshire 20 15 15 30 35 35 25 20 20 Wolverhampton 50 45 30 50 40 50 45 40 45 Worcestershire606545456060606060

East of England 750 740 770 780 780 770 770 700 700 Bedfordshire 65 60 60 55 85 70 60 45 35 Cambridgeshire 40 45 55 45 50 55 80 75 75 Essex 195 175 190 210 200 175 175 160 175 Hertfordshire 145 150 125 125 140 135 140 150 145 Luton 30 35 40 35 40 35 35 35 30 Norfolk 130 115 145 135 110 135 120 115 110 Peterborough 25 30 35 25 35 60 45 40 30 Southend-on-Sea 25 30 30 35 30 35 35 20 20 Suffolk 65 70 70 75 70 60 .60 50 55 Thurrock 25 30 25 30 20 15 15 15 20

London 1,960 2,110 2,090 2,000 2,250 2,170 2,040 1,910 1,790 Inner London 1,070 1,130 1,070 990 1,150 1,170 1,060 940 790 Camden 50 65 60 60 65 70 60 50 50 City Of London 0000101515155 Hackney 60 60 65 60 50 45 50 50 35 Hammersmith and 45 50 60 50 85 80 65 65 65 Fulham Haringey 75 120 160 130 140 140 120 105 95 Islington 170 155 125 115 130 130 90 75 30 Kensington and 65 65 45 50 35 35 55 40 45 Chelsea Lambeth 255 250 200 145 125 145 180 120 75 Lewisham 100 135 120 140 175 150 110 105 95 Newham 40 50 60 85 90 80 60 80 80 Southward 95 60 55 75 75 85 95 90 85 Tower Hamlets 60 50 55 45 70 90 80 60 55 Wandsworth 35 45 35 10 35 25 20 35 35 Westminster203030206075554035

Outer London 890 980 1,010 1,010 1,100 990 980 970 1,000 Barking and 60 90 105 85 30 25 30 30 35 Dagenham Barnet 40 45 65 80 60 70 55 55 55 Bexley 25 20 15 25 10 15 15 10 10 Brent 55 60 90 70 85 100 110 95 75 Bromley 55 75 100 85 65 50 45 40 40 Croydon 50 60 75 100 160 115 150 225 300 Ealing 110 90 70 80 65 50 55 60 50 Enfield 65 65 50 60 60 30 20 25 15 Greenwich 60 80 90 100 105 80 70 70 70 Harrow 253530254540404030 Havering 30 25 25 35 35 40 40 25 25 Hillingdon 90 65 60 45 70 60 65 45 50 Hounslow 70 65 50 50 70 75 65 50 70 Kingston upon 35 25 30 25 20 25 30 20 15 Thames Merton 203010152525201520 Redbridge 25 25 25 20 30 30 25 45 30 645W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 646W

Children in residential care at 31 March, by local authority1,2,3,4—years ending 31 March 2000 to 2008—coverage: England Children in residential care—number 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Richmond upon 15 40 40 30 25 25 20 15 10 Thames Sutton 202010202520201515 Waltham Forest 40 60 65 65 120 105 105 75 85

South East 920 990 990 910 990 1,030 990 930 1,100 Bracknell Forest 30 25 20 15 15 15 20 20 15 Brighton and Hove 25 45 50 40 35 35 40 45 40 Buckinghamshire 50 55 45 45 60 55 55 60 65 East Sussex 30 30 45 45 45 35 35 35 35 Hampshire 125 135 115 130 135 130 140 140 125 Isle of Wight — — 5 5 10 10 10 15 15 Kent 110 170 150 130 140 190 150 85 240 Medway Towns 20 30 30 30 20 15 15 15 20 Milton Keynes 45 30 35 35 30 35 40 40 40 Oxfordshire 70 70 60 55 60 60 45 45 50 Portsmouth 35 35 55 40 35 35 30 30 35 Reading 50 35 30 30 20 20 20 20 20 Slough 25 30 20 20 15 30 35 40 30 Southampton 20 15 30 20 30 35 30 30 25 Surrey 125 130 140 125 155 170 140 135 140 West Berkshire 30 20 15 15 15 20 20 15 15 West Sussex 85 90 120 90 130 115 130 115 150 Windsor and 20 25 20 25 20 15 15 25 20 Maidenhead Wokingham 25 20 15 15 10 15 20 25 15

South West 570 580 590 620 630 630 570 580 570 Bath and North East 5152025201510155 Somerset Bournemouth 35 35 40 30 30 30 30 25 30 Bristol, City of 75 50 60 75 85 80 70 70 65 Cornwall 708075706560606555 Devon 75 70 75 100 85 80 95 105 110 Dorset 202515203540404035 Gloucestershire 65 70 75 70 65 55 35 40 35 IslesOfScilly000000000 North Somerset 15 20 10 10 15 10 10 10 5 Plymouth 35 40 30 30 45 35 25 25 20 Poole 151515251515101010 Somerset 85 75 65 50 60 75 65 70 65 South Gloucestershire 20 15 15 20 30 30 25 25 25 Swindon 15 20 30 30 15 25 25 15 15 Torbay 15 15 15 25 25 15 15 20 20 Wiltshire 30 25 45 35 45 55 60 50 60 1. Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of short term placements. 2. Children in residential care include children looked after and placed in secure unit, children placed in homes and hostels subject to children’s homes regulations, children placed in residential accommodation (hostels and supportive residential settings) not subject to children’s homes regulations, children placed in residential settings and children in all residential schools, except where dual-registered as a school and children’s home. 3. Figures are taken from the SSDA903 return which for 2000 to 2003 have been derived from the one third sample, while figures for 2004 to 2008 cover all children looked after. 4. Rounding and suppression—to ensure that no individual can be identified from statistical tables, we use conventions for rounding and suppression of very small numbers. England totals have been rounded to the nearest 100 if they exceed 1,000 and to the nearest 10 otherwise. Regional totals have been rounded to the nearest 10. All other numbers have been rounded to the nearest five, and numbers from one to five inclusive have been suppressed, being replaced in the published table by a hyphen (—). Source: SSDA 903

Children: Protection Jim Knight: This is a matter for Ofsted. HM Chief Inspector, Christine Gilbert, has written to the hon. Member and a copy of her reply has been placed in the House Libraries. Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State Letter from Christine Gilbert, dated 19 May 2009: for Children, Schools and Families when he expects Your recent parliamentary question has been passed to me, as Ofsted next to report on lessons from serious case Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector, for a response. reviews. [274263] Ofsted has started the preparation for its second report on the outcomes of serious case reviews, based on evaluations which 647W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 648W were completed between 1 April 2008 and 31 March 2009. This is Departmental ICT provisionally planned for publication in late August 2009. In light of Lord Laming’s recent recommendations, Ofsted John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for also intends to produce more regular reports, at six-monthly intervals, which summarise the lessons from serious case reviews. Children, Schools and Families what steps he has taken We have yet to agree the pattern of dates of these reports. to reduce the levels of carbon dioxide emissions arising A copy of this reply has been sent to Rt Hon Beverley Hughes from the operation of ICT systems in his Department MP, Minister of State for Children, Young People and Families, under the Greening Government ICT Strategy. [273553] and will be placed in the library of both Houses. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I refer my hon. Member to the Climate Change reply given on 24 April 2009, Official Report, column 898W. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families (1) what steps his Departmental Training Department has taken to adapt to climate change in the last two years; [277648] Mr. Hands: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, (2) what estimate he has made of his Department’s Schools and Families pursuant to the answer of 9 potential gross (a) costs and (b) savings arising from February 2009, Official Report, column 1708W, on its climate change adaptation measures in the next departmental training, which Ministers attended the three years. [277729] (a) induction workshop, (b) action learning set, (c) media training and (d) select committee training courses; and what the total cost of these courses was. [265678] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: For the schools estate, some of the steps taken by DCSF and local authorities include: Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Ministers in the Department increasing the flood resilience of schools that have been or for Children, Schools and Families who have attended could be subject to flooding; personal training courses are: (a) Induction Workshop: promoting sustainable urban drainage strategies and other Sarah McCarthy-Fry, (b) Action Learning Set: Delyth sustainable water management practices in new and existing (c) school projects, as identified in the Construction Industry Morgan, Media Training: Sarah McCarthy-Fry and Research and Information Association (CIRIA) report funded Delyth Morgan, (d) Select Committee Training: Sarah by the Department1; McCarthy-Fry. promoting passive environmental design of new buildings to The total cost of these courses was £4,432.75. prevent summertime overheating; and joint DCSF/HPA guidance for teachers and other professionals Departmental Work Experience on looking after schoolchildren during heatwaves2. The Department has not made any estimate of the Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, costs and savings from climate change adaptation measures Schools and Families how many work placements his in schools. However some cost analysis of the possible Department and its predecessors offered to (a) school impacts on buildings was published in a report by the pupils, (b) university students and (c) graduates in Foundation for the Built Environment published in each of the last five years. [274491] 20003. The Department’s Estates and Facilities Management Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information is as follows: Division has earmarked £500,000 and £550,000 for the next two years, to invest in sustainability measures in University students and the Department’s buildings. Assessments will be made School pupils graduates of each potential sustainability improvement and we will invest in projects with a three-year payback or 2005 69 14 better. We are not yet in a position to determine the 2006 78 27 amount of these monies that will be spent on climate 20071 40 35 change adaptation measures or the value of the savings 2008 55 32 associated with them. 1 Department for Education and Skills up to 27 June 2007 and Department of Children, Schools and Families from 28 June 2007. 1 Sustainable water management in schools (W012) available free from It is not possible to separate figures for university www.ciria.org.uk/suds/publications.htm students and graduates. 2 Guidance for Teachers and other professionals on looking after The Department is currently in the process of planning Schoolchildren during Heatwaves— its own work experience programme for 2009. http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ HPAweb_C/1210577610802?p=1204031509010. Employment Tribunals Service and Background Information from HPA and DCSF on looking after Schoolchildren during heatwaves— Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ Children, Schools and Families how many actions under HPAweb_C/1210577610624?p=1204031509010 employment law have been brought against his Department 3 Potential implications of climate change in the built environment, and its predecessor in each of the last three years; how Hilary M Graves, Mark C Phillipson, 2000, ISBN 1860814476, many such actions were brought under each category of available from action; and how many such actions were contested by http://www.brebookshop.com/details.jsp?id=144643. his Department at an employment tribunal. [277417] 649W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 650W

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Department has defended A copy of the tables are available in the House less than five claims in employment tribunal hearings in Libraries. each of the financial years 2007-08 and 2008-09. The Department was established on 28 June 2007. Further GCE A-Level: History detail is suppressed on grounds of confidentiality. Information on the number of claims withdrawn Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for during the process of being defended prior to a full Children, Schools and Families how many and what hearing is not held and could be obtained only at proportion of pupils who sat A-level history at disproportionate cost. mainstream maintained schools gained an A to E grade Information for the 2006-07 financial year could be in that subject in each year since 1997. [276845] obtained only at disproportionate cost. Jim Knight: The information requested can be found Faith Schools: Finance in the table: Number and proportion of pupils who sat A-level history at mainstream Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, maintained schools and who gained an A to E grade in that subject in each year Schools and Families what funding his Department since 1997 provided to religious bodies as a contribution to their Number Percentage capital expenditure on voluntary-aided schools of a 1997 16,713 86.6 religious character in each year from 1997-98 to 2003-04; 1998 16,710 87.2 what proportion of his Department’s expenditure such 1999 16,541 87.9 expenditure represented in each of those years; and in 2000 16,617 88.9 what instances his Department’s contribution represented 2001 17,034 88.7 (a) up to 90 per cent. and (b) 90 per cent. or more of 2002 20,159 97.1 [277665] total project expenditure. 2003 20,903 97.9 2004 21,987 98.1 Jim Knight: The information set out as follows shows 2005 22,767 98.1 the amount of grant payable from 2001-02, the earliest 2006 23,723 98.1 year for which we have the information, to the governing 2007 23,826 98.4 bodies of those voluntary aided (VA) schools with a 2008 24,811 98.9 religious character. This is then shown as a proportion Source: of the total departmental capital programme (including Achievement and Attainment Tables. PFI credits) for all schools. Some VA schools will also The jump in the pass rate in 2002 is partly due to the have received some funding from programmes other new unitised A-level exams which saw the first cohort than the main VA programmes but as these records are taking AS courses. maintained mainly at local authority level we do not keep records of the amounts. The proportions in the table are therefore likely smaller than the actual share. GCSE Although most capital expenditure at voluntary aided schools requires a 10 per cent. contribution from their Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for governing bodies, we do not have information relating Children, Schools and Families how many pupils did to any other contributions made either by governing not gain a single GCSE grade excluding equivalents in bodies or from any other source. 2008. [251122]

Amount Amount as a proportion of Jim Knight: The number of pupils that did not attain Amount paid paid 90-100 the total departmental at least one full1 GCSE (excluding all2 equivalents) in up to 90 per per cent. capital programme cent. (£000) (£000) (percentage) the grade of A*-G is 24,119, which is a proportion of 3.7 per cent. of pupils at the end of Key Stage 4 in the 2001-02 172,292 427 6.16 year, 2008. 2002-03 298,205 3,750 8.67 1 Short GCSE courses have been excluded. Full, double and 2003-04 440,450 28,200 10.8 extended double courses have been included. Total 910,947 32,377 2 GNVQ’s have also been excluded.

GCE A-Level Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many and what Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, proportion of pupils, including those in the cohort but Schools and Families what the average A-level points not entered for examination, in (a) comprehensive score per pupil was for secondary schools with sixth schools, (b) independent schools, (c) pupil referral forms of (a) 50 or fewer, (b) 51 to 100, (c) 101 to 150, units, excluding hospital schools, (d) special schools, (d) 151 to 200, (e) 201 to 250 and (f) more than 250 (e) grammar schools, (f) academies and city technology pupils in each of the last three years for which figures colleges and (g) any other type of school attained five are available. [273518] GCSEs grades A* to C, including English and mathematics and excluding equivalents in the last year for which Jim Knight: The information is published in the School figures are available. [266862] and College Achievement and Attainment Tables on the Department’s website at the following link: Jim Knight: The requested information is given in the http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/performancetables/16to18_08.shtml. following table: 651W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 652W

Number and proportion of pupils at the end of KS4 that achieved five or more GCSEs1 at grade A*-C, including English and maths, by school type in 2008 Number of pupils achieving 5+ A*-C Percentage of pupils achieving 5+ A*- School category including English and maths C including English and maths

(a) Comprehensive2 247,840 46.2 (b) Independent mainstream 22,597 49.0 (c) Pupil referral units (excluding hospital 55 0.8 schools) (d) Special schools3 110 1.0 (e) Grammar schools 22,038 97.7 (f) Academies and CTCs2 4,448 34.6 (g) Other (modern and other maintained 10,267 34.7 schools) 1 Only GCSE and vocational GCSE grades have been considered. 2 Academies and CTCs are a subset of comprehensive schools. 3 Including independent special schools and excluding hospital schools.

GCSE: Citizenship between the Minister of State for Schools and David Gee about national curriculum tests; and if he will Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [278089] Children, Schools and Families (1) how many pupils sat a GCSE in citizenship studies in each of the last five Jim Knight: I refer the hon. Member to the reply years; [276839] given on 30 April 2009, Official Report, column 1450W. My private secretary took a note of the meeting on (2) how many pupils sat GCSEs in both citizenship 17 June 2008. studies and history in each year since 1997. [276840] National Curriculum Tests: Reading Berkshire Jim Knight: The information required is given in the table. The GCSE short course in citizenship has only Mr. Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for been available for the past five years. Children, Schools and Families (1) how many and what Number of pupils attempting history and citizenship in 2003/04 to 2007/08 proportion of pupils who attended a school in the GCSE short course in Both full GCSE history and GCSE Reading Local Education Authority area took the Key citizenship short course in citizenship Stage 3 tests in (a) English, (b) mathematics and (c) 2004 24,415 8,365 science attained the same or a lower level than they 2005 36,207 11,947 attained at Key Stage 2 (i) in total and (ii) for pupils 2006 51,296 17,323 who attained (A) level 3, (B) level 4 and (C) level 5 at [248861] 2007 67,295 21,739 Key Stage 2 in each year since 1997; 2008 84,588 26,384 (2) how many and what proportion of pupils who Notes: attended a school in the Reading Local Education 1. Figures in 2003/04 relate to 15-year-olds (age at start of academic year, ie 31 Authority area and attained level 5 or below in the Key August) in all schools. 2. Figures for 2005 onwards relate to pupils at the end of Key Stage 4. Stage 3 tests in (a) English, (b) mathematics and (c) science in 2007 had previously attained level 5 or above National Curriculum Tests at Key Stage 2. [248862]

Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information is in the following Children, Schools and Families which official of his tables. Data for other years can be only provided at Department minuted the meeting of 17 June 2008 disproportionate cost.

Attainment1 of pupils2 in all schools at key stage 2 (2004) and key stage 3 (2007) analysed by subject—Year: 2007 (Revised); Coverage: Reading Percentage achieving key stage 3 level Level Level Unable to 5or 6or Keystage2level access test B N 2345678Totalabove above

English—91% of pupils with a valid result in English at key stage 33 also haveavalid result in English at key stage 24 Disapplied000—00000—000 B 05821—xxx00—100x0 N 0 50 23 — 13 x x 0 0 — 100 x 0 2 0 15 31 — 23 31 0 0 0 — 100 0 0 3 0 6 8 — 8 45 31 0 0 — 100 31 0 4 0 x 1 — 2 14 60 16 5 — 100 81 21 5 0 0 0 — 0 0 17 47 35 — 100 99 82 653W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 654W

Attainment1 of pupils2 in all schools at key stage 2 (2004) and key stage 3 (2007) analysed by subject—Year: 2007 (Revised); Coverage: Reading Percentage achieving key stage 3 level Level Level Unable to 5or 6or Keystage2level access test B N 2345678Totalabove above

Maths—89% of pupils with a valid result in Mathsatkey stage 35 also haveavalid result in Maths at key stage 26 Disapplied0000000000000 B 0 32 0 x 52 x 0 0 0 0 100 0 0 N 00xx5830000010000 2 00x02567000010000 3 0xx010413411001004511 4 0000x4304815x1009464 5 000000x7336010010099

Science—89% of pupils with a valid result in Science at key stage 37 also haveavalid result in Science at key stage 28 Disapplied000000000—000 B 0xx0670000—10000 N 0 0 36 0 27 27 0 0 0 — 100 0 0 2 00003854000—10000 3 0x4x23501600—100160 4 001x32355161—1007116 5 000001132758—1009886 1 Results of key stage 2 and key stage 3 tests, not teacher assessments. 2 Only pupils with a valid level at both key stage 2 and key stage 3 are included. 3 Valid results in KS3 English include levels 3-7, B, N, A, unable to access test and malpractice cases. Absent and Malpractice not shown within table. 4 Valid results in KS2 English include levels 2-6, D, B, N, A. Absent not shown within table. 5 Valid results in KS3 Maths include levels 3-8, B, N, A, unable to access test and malpractice cases. Absent and Malpractice not shown within table. 6 Valid results in KS2 Maths include levels 2-6, D, B, N, A. Absent not shown within table. 7 Valid results in KS3 Science include levels 3-7, B, N, A, unable to access test and malpractice cases. Absent and Malpractice not shown within table. 8 Valid results in KS2 Science include levels 2-6, D, B, N, A. Absent not shown within table. Note: ‘x’ = Percentage suppressed due to small numbers

Number achieving key stage 3 level Level Level Unable to 5or 6or Keystage2level access test B N 2345678Totalabove above

English—91% of pupils with a valid result in English at key stage 33 also haveavalid result in English at key stage 24 Disapplied0000—0000—000 B 02010x—xx00—30x0 N 02010x—xx00—30x0 2 0xxx—x000—1000 3 0 10 10 10 — 60 40 0 0 — 130 40 0 4 0 x x 10 — 50 220 60 10 — 350 290 70 5 0000—060150110—320320260

Maths—89% of pupils with a valid result in Mathsatkey stage 35 also haveavalid result in Maths at key stage 26 Disapplied0000000000000 B 0xxx10x00002000 655W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 656W

Number achieving key stage 3 level Level Level Unable to 5or 6or Keystage2level access test B N 2345678Totalabove above

N 00xx201000003000 2 0000x1000001000 3 0xx020806020001808020 4 0 0 10 0 x 10 90 140 40 x 300 280 190 5 000000x20110210340340340

Science—89% of pupils with a valid result in Science at key stage 37 also haveavalid result in Science at key stage 28 Disapplied000000000—000 B 0xx0100000—1000 N 00x0xx000—1000 2 00001010000—1000 3 0xxx30502000—100200 4 0 0 10 x 10 80 190 50 x — 340 240 60 5 00000x50110240—400400340 1 Results of key stage 2 and key stage 3 tests, not teacher assessments. 2 Only pupils with a valid level at both key stage 2 and key stage 3 are included. 3 Valid results in KS3 English include levels 3-7, B, N, A, unable to access test and malpractice cases. Absent and Malpractice not shown within table. 4 Valid results in KS2 English include levels 2-6, D, B, N, A. Absent not shown within table. 5 Valid results in KS3 Maths include levels 3-8, B, N, A, unable to access test and malpractice cases. Absent and Malpractice not shown within table. 6 Valid results in KS2 Maths include levels 2-6, D, B, N, A. Absent not shown within table. 7 Valid results in KS3 Science include levels 3-7, B, N, A, unable to access test and malpractice cases. Absent and Malpractice not shown within table. 8 Valid results in KS2 Science include levels 2-6, D, B, N, A. Absent not shown within table. Notes: 1. ‘x’ Figures suppressed due to small numbers 2. All figures rounded to the nearest 10. Therefore parts may not sum to totals.

Pupil Exclusions Data on permanent exclusions is available for the full period requested. Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Data on fixed period exclusions was collected for the Schools and Families how many children of between first time in 2003/04 via the Termly Exclusions Survey. five and seven years have been (a) excluded from Since 2005/06 collection has been via the School Census, school for a fixed period and (b) permanently excluded but in that first year was for secondary schools only. In from school in each of the last 10 years for which 2006/07, collection was extended to primary and special figures are available. [275093] schools. The School Census includes non-maintained special Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Information on the number of schools, city technology colleges and academies whereas permanent and fixed period exclusions (not pupils) is the Termly Exclusions Survey excludes them. This difference published at: in scope and the change in collection mechanism mean 2006/07 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000793/ that caution is needed when comparing results since index.shtml 2005/06 with those prior to that. 2005/06 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000733/ index.shtml 2004/05 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000662/ School Meals index.shtml 2003/04 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000582/ Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for index.shtml Children, Schools and Families what steps he is taking 2002/03 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000535/ to ensure that school pupils eat healthy meals at school index.shtml lunchtimes. [278034] 2001/02 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000427/ index.shtml Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Secretary of State has set 2000/01 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000365/ up the School Food Trust (SFT), put in place new index.shtml nutritional standards, and is investing over £650 million 1999/2000 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000298/ to improve the quality of school food. index.shtml Since September 2006 all schools have had to meet 1998/99 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000209/ food-based standards for school lunches and, since index.shtml September 2007, they have also had to meet food-based 1997/98 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000025/ standards for other school food such as tuck shops, index.shtml vending and breakfast clubs. 657W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 658W

Nutrient-based standards have been mandatory in Jim Knight: A tentative estimate of the number of primary schools since September 2008 and come into effect jobs that will be created from the acceleration of schools in secondary and special schools from September 2009. capital funding during the financial year 1 April 2009 to Together with the Trust, we have created a network of 31 March 2010 is 10,000. school FEAST (Food Excellence and Skills Training) centres to offer customised and new training and qualifications for school caterers. The Trust has put in Schools: Playing Fields place a range of guidance, communications and marketing activities, and a network of local school food ambassadors Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for to encourage and support schools to provide good Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has quality school lunches. made of the area of land used for school playing fields The Trust’s Million Meals programme provides a (a) in 1997 and (b) on the latest date for which figures range of resources and support to increase take up. are available. [278032] Schools: Asbestos Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Data on areas of school playing fields and external spaces were supplied to my Department Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, by local education authorities in 2001 and 2003. However, Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the the completeness and quality of the data were not good number of maintained schools with asbestos in the enough to accurately estimate the area of land used. fabric of the school building; and if he will make a statement. [276313] Section 77 of the School Standards and Framework Act was introduced in October 1998 to stop the Jim Knight: Asbestos Containing Materials (ACMs) indiscriminate sale of school playing fields. Local authorities were used extensively as building materials in Great and governing bodies of all maintained schools now Britain and the majority of schools are likely to contain need the Secretary of State’s consent before they can them as are many other buildings both domestic and dispose of a playing field or any part of a playing field. non-domestic. It has been estimated that more than 500,000 non-domestic premises, including schools, still contain ACMs. Schools: Safety Many maintained schools built or refurbished between 1945 and the early 1980s have asbestos in the fabric of Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, the school building because in that period ACMs were Schools and Families what his policy is on the (a) extensively used as building materials in new and refurbished methodology and (b) frequency of fire safety schools, although asbestos removal has taken place in inspections in schools. [277689] some of them since. In particular, pre-fabricated schools—so called system-built schools—of the CLASP, SCOLA Jim Knight: The management of fire safety in buildings and Hills types commonly used ACMs. The HSE records is subject to the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) (RRO) over 1,400 CLASP schools in the UK, and it has been Order 2005. The guide to this legislation covering schools estimated there are 13,000 system built schools. is the Risk Assessment Guide for Educational Premises Major refurbishments normally include removal of 2006 (RRO Guide)1. The RRO brings in a risk assessment all asbestos in areas in which work is undertaken and based approach to fire safety. Risk assessment is a when new schools replace old ones the demolition includes continual process and the ″responsible person″ for the the safe disposal of all ACMs. school must ensure that it is updated as and when There are around 28,000 maintained schools in England. necessary. The Fire and Rescue Services are the enforcing The following analysis, compiled in 2001, shows the authorities for the RRO and can inspect any premises at ages of buildings of maintained schools in England, as any time. There is no frequency given for such inspections percentages of floor area: but they are likely to be more frequent for high risk premises. Percentage 1 Fire Safety Risk Assessment—Educational Premises, published Pre 1919 14 2006, ISBN: 978 1 85112 819 8. Inter war 13 http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk6 From 1945 to 1966 33 From 1967 to 1976 24 Post 1976 13 Special Educational Needs Temporary premises 3 Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Our best estimate in September 2008 on the basis of Schools and Families what proportion of pupils with the figures above was that around 70 per cent. of school statements of special educational needs attended special buildings contain some ACMs. schools in the (a) England, (b) the North East, (c) Schools: Construction Teesside and (d) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency in each year since 1997. [276686] Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many of the Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The available information is 100,000 jobs the Government plans to create he expects shown in the following table. Data for further years to result from school capital projects. [250651] could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 659W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 660W

Proportion of pupils1 with statements of special educational needs attending special schools2,3—Years: 1997, 2000, 2005 and 2008 1997 2000 Maintained Maintained primary, state primary, state funded funded secondary Proportion in secondary Proportion in Special and special special Special and special special schools schools4 schools schools schools4 schools

England 92,360 226,170 40.8 91,480 243,800 37.5

North East 6,240 12,960 48.2 5,650 13,600 41.5

Teesside5 1,480 2,750 54.0 1,310 2,840 46.3 Hartlepool 220 380 57.4 210 420 50.5 Middlesbrough 510 840 60.7 350 770 45.3 Redcar and Cleveland 220 510 43.5 220 580 38.4 Stockton-on-Tees 540 1,020 52.5 530 1,060 49.6

Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland 160 320 48.6 150 410 36.9

2005 2008 Maintained Maintained primary, state primary, state funded funded secondary Proportion in secondary Proportion in Special and special special Special and special special schools schools4 schools schools schools4 schools

England 88,030 232,660 37.8 86,950 213,350 40.8

North East 5,610 12,810 43.8 5,550 11,470 48.4

Teesside5 1,290 3,030 42.4 1,360 2,710 50.1 Hartlepool 130 370 34.8 120 310 37.5 Middlesbrough 430 980 43.5 420 870 48.0 Redcar and Cleveland 230 650 35.2 300 610 49.2 Stockton-on-Tees 510 1,040 48.6 520 920 56.9

Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland 190 530 35.8 190 480 39.5 1 Excludes dually registered pupils. 2 Includes general and special hospital schools. 3 As a proportion of those attending maintained primary, state funded secondary and special schools. 4 Includes CTCs and Academies. 5 Teesside consists of Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland and Stockton-on-Tees. Source: School Census.

The Department does not hold the requested information on children in care. Usually we would use the looked for the UK. Information relating to Wales, Scotland after children database but this does not hold all the and Northern Ireland are available from the Welsh details requested here. Assembly Government, Scottish Government and Northern Ireland Department of Education, respectively. The School Census shows that there were 34,390 pupils aged 5 to 19 attending primary, secondary and special schools and classed as being in care as at January Special Educational Needs: Disadvantaged 2008. Data published by the Department in “SFR 23/2008: Children looked after in England (including Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for adoption and care leavers) year ending 31 March 2008” Children, Schools and Families how many pupils in show 47,600 children aged between 5 and 19 as being each local authority area who were eligible for free looked after as at 31 March 2008. However, the School school meals, had statements of special educational Census does not cover all looked after children; information needs and were children in care, attended mainstream is not collected for pupils in alternative provision, including schools in 2008. [260506] pupil referral units, FE colleges, voluntary provision and those not in education or training. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information requested is These differences in coverage will explain the different shown in the table. counts to an extent, but it is possible that the School The information provided is from the School Census Census undercounts the number of looked after children however this is not the usual source of data for information in primary, secondary and special schools. 661W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 662W

LA maintained primary schools and state-funded secondary schools1,2: Pupils LA maintained primary schools and state-funded secondary schools1,2: Pupils eligible for free school meals, with statements of special educational needs and in eligible for free school meals, with statements of special educational needs and in care, as at January 2008, England, by local authority care, as at January 2008, England, by local authority Number of pupils3,4 Number of pupils3,4

England 430 Derbyshire 10 Leicester 10 5 North East 20 Leicestershire — 5 Darlington 5— Lincolnshire — Durham 10 Northamptonshire 10 5 Gateshead 0 Nottingham — Hartlepool 0 Nottinghamshire 0 Middlesbrough 10 Rutland 0 Newcastle upon Tyne 5— North Tyneside 5— West Midlands 50 Northumberland 5— Birmingham 20 Redcar and Cleveland 0 Coventry 0 South Tyneside 5— Dudley 10 Stockton-on-Tees 5— Herefordshire 0 Sunderland 5— Sandwell 0 Shropshire 10 5 North West 120 Solihull — 5 Blackburn with 5— Staffordshire — Darwen Stoke-on-Trent 5— Blackpool 5— Telford and Wrekin 5— Bolton 10 Walsall 5— Bury 5— Warwickshire 5— Cheshire 10 Wolverhampton 5— Cumbria 10 Worcestershire 5— Halton 5— Knowsley 0 East of England 30 Lancashire 20 Bedfordshire 5— Liverpool 10 Cambridgeshire 0 Manchester 20 Essex 10 5 Oldham — Hertfordshire 5— 5 Rochdale — Luton 5— 5 Salford — Norfolk 5— 5 Sefton — Peterborough 5— 5 St. Helens — Southend-on-Sea 5— Stockport 10 Suffolk 5— 5 Tameside — Thurrock 5— Trafford 10 Warrington 5— London 70 Wigan 5— Inner London 30 Wirral 10 Camden 5— City of London 0 Yorkshire and the 50 Hackney 10 Humber Hammersmith and 10 5 Barnsley — Fulham Bradford 10 Haringey 0 5 Calderdale — Islington 5— 5 Doncaster — Kensington and 5— East Riding of 5— Chelsea Yorkshire Lambeth 10 5 Kingston upon Hull, — Lewisham 5— City of Newham 5— Kirklees 5— Southwark 5— Leeds 10 North East 0 Tower Hamlets 10 Lincolnshire Wandsworth 5— North Lincolnshire 5— Westminster 5— North Yorkshire 5— Rotherham 5— Outer London 30 Sheffield 10 Barking and 0 Wakefield 5— Dagenham 5 Yo rk — Barnet 5— Bexley 5— East Midlands 30 Brent 5— Derby 5— Bromley 0 663W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 664W

LA maintained primary schools and state-funded secondary schools1,2: Pupils Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for eligible for free school meals, with statements of special educational needs and in care, as at January 2008, England, by local authority Children, Schools and Families how many (a) primary, Number of pupils3,4 (b) secondary and (c) special school pupils who were eligible for free school meals had an absence rate of 50 Croydon 5— per cent. or above in 2007-08. [260537] Ealing 5— Enfield 5— Greenwich 10 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The information requested is Harrow 5— shown in the table. Havering 5— Primary, secondary and special schools1, 2, 3 pupils eligible for free Hillingdon 5— school meals who have an absence rate of 50 per cent. or above, 2007/ Hounslow 5— 08, England Kingston upon Thames 0 Number of pupil enrolments with an absence rate of 4, 5 Merton 0 50 per cent. or above Redbridge 5— Eligibility Richmond upon 5— Not for free Thames Eligible for eligible for school free school free school meals Sutton 5— meals6 meals6 unknown6 Total Waltham Forest 5— Primary 1,700 2,870 8,080 12,640 schools1 South East 40 Bracknell Forest 0 State 10,370 19,380 10,780 40,530 funded 5 Brighton and Hove — secondary Buckinghamshire 5— schools1, 2 East Sussex 5— Special 960 1,690 590 3,240 Hampshire 5— schools3 Isle of Wight 5— Total 13,030 23,940 19,440 56,410 Kent 10 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. Medway 5— 2 Includes CTCs and academies. 3 Milton Keynes 0 Includes both maintained and non-maintained special schools. 4 Oxfordshire 5— Absence rate is the total number of half day sessions missed due to authorised and unauthorised absence expressed as a percentage of the 5 Portsmouth — total number of possible sessions. Reading 5— 5 Number of pupil enrolments in schools from start of the school year Slough 5— up until 23 May 2008. Includes pupils on the school roll for at least Southampton 0 one session who are aged between five and 15, excluding boarders. Surrey 10 Some pupils may be counted more than once (if they moved schools during the school year or are registered in more than one school). West Berkshire 0 6 Eligible for free school meals at the time of the January 2008 Census. West Sussex 0 Note: Windsor and 5— Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. Maidenhead Source: Wokingham 0 School Census

South West 20 The information is a variation of table 3.2 in SFR03/2009, which was revised on 21 April 2009. Bath and North East 5— Somerset Absence data are collected a term in arrears. Therefore, Bournemouth 0 for each census, schools provide data for pupils who Bristol, City of 5— have left the school, in which case free school meal Cornwall 0 eligibility may not be available. The table includes all Devon 5— enrolments, regardless of duration of enrolment. Some Dorset 5— enrolments may be short term. Gloucestershire 5— Isles of Scilly 0 North Somerset 0 5 Plymouth — Special Educational Needs: Pupil Exclusions Poole 5— Somerset 5— South Gloucestershire 0 Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Swindon 5— Children, Schools and Families how many and what Torbay 5— proportion of permanent exclusions were given to Wiltshire 5— pupils in mainstream schools with a statement of 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. special educational need in the most recent year for 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies. 3 Pupils aged 5-19. which figures are available. [273643] 4 Includes dually registered pupils. 5 Less than 5. Note: Sarah McCarthy-Fry [holding answer 8 May 2009]: Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: The following table shows the information requested School Census. for 2006/07. 665W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 666W

Primary, secondary and special schools1,2; number and proportion of Ann Keen: We expect the findings of the independent permanent exclusions given to pupils with statements of special review team will be published in the early summer. educational need—2006/07 England Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Number Health what recent estimate he has made of the cost to Number of permanent exclusions given to pupils in 620 the public purse of the Steele Review of NHS dentistry mainstream schools, with statements of SEN3 in England; and from which budgetary allocation the funds for the review are drawn. [277856] Total number of permanent exclusions 8,680 Ann Keen: The costs of the review are being met from the Department’s centrally managed programme funds. Proportion of total number of permanent exclusions 7.12 given to pupils in mainstream schools, with statements Final review costs will be available once Professor Steele’s of SEN review is complete and his report is published. We 1 Includes city technology colleges and academies. expect the report to be published in the early summer. 2 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. 3 Includes maintained primary, maintained secondary, city technology Employment Tribunals Service colleges and academies. Note: Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: Health how many actions under employment law have School Census been brought against his Department in each of the last three years; how many such actions were brought Sure Start: Greater Manchester under each category of action; and how many such actions were contested by his Department at an Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for employment tribunal. [277414] Children, Schools and Families how many children in Denton and Reddish constituency have enrolled in Sure Mr. Bradshaw: The information requested about actions Start in each year since 2003. [277503] against the Department under employment law is given in the following table. Beverley Hughes: Tameside local authority currently has 15 Sure Start Children’s Centres offering access to Nature of the services to around 11,756 children under five and their case Outcome Number families. Of these, two are situated in Denton and 2008-09 Equal pay Case withdrawn by claimant 2 Reddish constituency, with a combined reach of claim approximately 1,555 children. Disability Case withdrawn by claimant The Department does not hold information centrally Discrimination on how many children in Denton and Reddish constituency Act have enrolled in Sure Start in each year since 2003. 2007-08 Unfair Case withdrawn by claimant 3 dismissal Disability Case withdrawn by claimant HEALTH Discrimination Blood: Contamination Act Discrimination Case contested by Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on the grounds Department. Tribunal of sexual found in favour of the what priority is accorded to pathogen inactivation for orientation Department blood products by the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs; and if he will 2006-07 Constructive Case withdrawn by claimant 2 make a statement. [277378] dismissal Dawn Primarolo: Advice on measures to reduce the Unfair Case withdrawn by claimant dismissal risk of transmission of bacterial and other infections via blood, particularly blood components such as red Epilepsy cells, platelets and plasma, is central to the work of the Advisory Committee on the Safety of Blood, Tissues and Organs. Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what estimate he has made of the extent to Fractionated blood products such as albumin, clotting which the NHS is achieving compliance with National factors and immunoglobulins are regulated as medicinal Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence guidance products, and are subject to the requirements of the on the waiting time for a specialist consultation for Community code for safety, quality and efficacy of those suspected of having epilepsy. [277766] medicinal products as defined in European Directive 2001/83/EC. Ann Keen: We have made no estimate of the extent to Dental Services which the national health service is meeting the waiting time guidelines published by the National Institute for Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Clinical Excellence. Health when he expects to publish the Steele Review of NHS dentistry in England; and if he will make a Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [277855] Health what assessment he has made of the effect of 667W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 668W his Department’s guidance note of May 2008, Long Hospitals Term Neurological Conditions—A Good Practice Guide to the Development of the Multidisciplinary Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State Team and the Value of the Specialist Nurse, on the for Health what guidance his Department provides to number of epilepsy specialist nurses in the NHS. NHS hospital trusts on the rules and conventions that [277821] apply to clinical attachments; and if he will make a statement. [277295] Ann Keen: We have made no assessment. It is the responsibility of local health bodies to assess Ann Keen: The Department has not produced any their workforce needs, which may include the provision specific guidance on the role and use of clinical attachments of epilepsy specialist nurses. in the national health service, but would expect all employing organisations to follow the guidance set out Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health by the General Medical Council covering good medical (1) how many people (a) in total and (b) under the age practice in the engagement of these individual doctors. of 25 years have been diagnosed with epilepsy in (i) England, (ii) the East Midlands and (iii) Leicester; [278127] Lung Cancer (2) how many people were diagnosed with epilepsy in each of the last 10 years; [278128] Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for (3) how many people are estimated to have Health (1) what percentage of primary care trusts undiagnosed epilepsy in (a) England, (b) the East participated in the National Lung Cancer Audit for 2007; and what steps his Department has taken to Midlands and (c) Leicester. [278132] encourage primary care trusts to participate in the Ann Keen: Information on the number of people with National Lung Cancer Audit for 2008; [277741] either diagnosed, or undiagnosed, epilepsy is not collected (2) how many primary care trusts did not submit centrally. data to the National Lung Cancer Audit for 2007. [277742] Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many support groups there are in (a) England, Ann Keen: Primary care trusts do not submit data to (b) the East Midlands and (c) Leicester for those the National Lung Cancer Audit (NLCA). Audit data diagnosed with epilepsy and their families. [278134] are submitted by 28 cancer networks, covering all the national health service trusts providing services for Ann Keen: We do not collect information on the people with lung cancer. NLCA started in 2005 and number of support groups for those diagnosed with coverage has progressively improved. Their 2007 report epilepsy. found that all cancer networks were participating and only six of their constituent NHS trusts did not contribute Health Professions: Immigration Controls data. The NLCA is part of the national clinical audit and Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for patient outcome programme, which comprises over 20 Health what assessment he has made of the likely effect national audits managed by the health quality improvement of recent changes to Tier One immigration rules for partnership with funding from the Department. highly skilled migrants on numbers of applications to postgraduate medical training posts; and if he will Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for make a statement. [277380] Health how many lung cancer patients the NHS had in 2007; and how many of these were aged (a) under 50, Ann Keen: International medical graduates play an (b) between 50 and 59, (c) between 60 and 69 (d) important and valued part in the United Kingdom’s between 70 and 79 and (e) 80 or more years old. national health service. The Department and UK Border [277824] Agency are working together to ensure that the needs of the NHS are taken into account when any changes are Ann Keen: This information is not held centrally. made to immigration law and are developing transitional measures for international medical graduates who have Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for trained in UK medical schools. Health what estimate he has made of the number of lung cancer patients who do not have access to a Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for specialist thoracic surgeon. [277825] Health what recent assessment he has made of the effects of recent changes to Tiers One and Two of the immigration rules on medical workforce planning; and Ann Keen: We do not routinely collect this information. if he will make a statement. [277381] It is for local service providers to determine the work force required to deliver the service needs. Ann Keen: International medical graduates play an important and valued part in the United Kingdom’s Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for national health service. The Department and UK Border Health (1) what proportion of lung cancer patients are Agency work together to ensure that the needs of the being treated by a (a) cardio-thoracic and (b) NHS are taken into account when any changes are specialist thoracic surgeon in the last 12 months for made to the immigration rule. which figures are available; [277828] 669W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 670W

(2) what proportion of lung cancer patients who had Ann Keen: In 2008-09, the Department provided the a surgical resection were treated by a (a) cardio- Appointments Commission with £4,228,000 (including thoracic and (b) specialist thoracic surgeon in the capital funding), for which the Commission made 825 latest period for which figures are available. [277829] public appointments, provided an induction programme for appointees, ensured systems were in place to appraise Ann Keen: This information is not collected centrally. the performance of public appointees, provided training It is for local service providers to determine the work and development opportunities and updated the force required to deliver the service needs. Commission’s information and communication technology. During the period 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2009, an Lyme Disease average of 52 whole time equivalent staff were employed at the Appointments Commission. Anne Milton: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what research into lyme disease his Department NHS: Innovation plans for (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [277817] Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Dawn Primarolo: Neither the Department nor the Health what (a) terms of reference have and (b) Medical Research Council (MRC) is currently supporting timetable has been set for the review of innovation in research directly concerned with lyme disease, although the NHS led by Professor Kennedy. [277836] the MRC funds a broader portfolio of basic underpinning research relating to bacterial infection and emerging Dawn Primarolo: The National Institute for Health diseases that may lead to further understanding of the and Clinical Excellence (NICE) has commissioned Professor condition. Sir Ian Kennedy to conduct an independent study on valuing innovation, looking specifically at: Measles, Mumps and Rubella what approach should be adopted by NICE to ensure that innovation is properly taken into account when establishing Mr. Neil Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for the value of new health technologies? Health how many reported cases of (a) mumps, (b) should particular forms of value be considered more important measles and (c) rubella there were in each year since than others? 1997. [277107] how should innovation in health technologies be defined? what is the relationship between innovation and value? Dawn Primarolo: The information supplied by the We understand that Professor Kennedy’s report will Health Protection Agency (HPA) is shown in the following be considered by NICE’s Board when it meets on 22 July table. 2009. Further information on this study is available on All laboratory confirmed cases of measles, mumps and rubella, NICE’s website at: England and Wales, 1997 to 2008 www.nice.org.uk/newsroom/latestnewsfromnice/ Measles Mumps Rubella valuinginnovation.jsp 1997 177 182 117 NHS: Manpower 1998 56 121 119 1999 92 373 162 Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for 2000 100 730 62 Health how many specialist thoracic surgeons were 2001 70 784 45 employed by the NHS at the latest date for which 2002 319 500 64 figures are available. [277826] 2003 437 1,541 16 2004 188 8,129 14 Ann Keen: This information is not collected centrally. 2005 78 43,378 29 2006 740 4,420 34 Mr. Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2007 990 1,476 35 how many fully-trained (a) psychiatrists, (b) 20081 1,370 2,440 27 psychologists, (c) psychiatric nurses and (d) social 1 Provisional totals. workers there were in the NHS in (i) 1997 and (ii) 2008. Notes: [278084] 1. Measles and mumps includes those confirmed by testing serum and by oral fluid 2. Rubella includes serum confirmed from 1997, but since 1998 Ann Keen: The number of psychiatrists, psychologists, includes both serum and oral fluid. and psychiatric nurses employed by the national health 3. From February 2005, the HPA recommended that, during the service in England in the years requested is given in the period of increased mumps incidence, oral fluid sample should not be following table. taken from individuals with clinical mumps who are born between 1981 and 1986, and they should be managed as if they were confirmed The number of social workers is not collected centrally cases. For the purpose of reporting, all notified cases of mumps in by the Department. this 15 to 24-year-old age group are being counted as confirmed. NHS Appointments Service Headcount Staff 1997 2008 Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for Medical staff in the psychiatry 3,962 6,070 Health what expenditure his Department incurred on specialties1 the NHS Appointments Service in the last 12 months; and how many people were employed by the service at Clinical psychologists 4,038 7,523 the latest date for which figures are available. [277782] Psychotherapists 489 1,366 671W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 672W

Dawn Primarolo: In 2008, the net ingredient cost of Headcount prescriptions for nicotine replacement therapy (NRT) Staff 1997 2008 dispensed in England was £30,009,015. This figure does Psychiatric nurses 39,109 49,113 not include NRT provided without a prescription by Learning disabilities nurses 11,111 7,197 national health service stop smoking services clinics 1 Excludes doctors in training and equivalents. whose figures for this activity are not collected centrally. Smoking Tuberculosis: Vaccination

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what assessment he has made of the effect the Health what the cost per pupil immunised of BCG prohibition on smoking in public places has had on the vaccination was in the period immediately before the incidence of littering. [277810] universal vaccination programme was ended; and if he will make a statement. [277832] Dawn Primarolo: The Department has not conducted any specific research into the impact on litter since the Dawn Primarolo: A targeted at-risk vaccination implementation of the smokefree law in England in July programme replaced the school-based routine programme 2007. of Bacillus Calmette-Guerin (BCG) vaccination against tuberculosis in 2005. The school-based programme provided Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for the Heaf test prior to BCG vaccination. The aggregate Health what recent research he has (a) commissioned cost per pupil of the Heaf test and BCG vaccine was and (b) evaluated on the use of branded generics in approximately £2 in 2005. Costs of administration are nicotine replacement therapy. [277830] not included in this figure. Welfare Food Scheme Dawn Primarolo: A significant body of research evidence exists around the use of nicotine replacement therapy in Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Health supporting smokers to quit. how many (a) nurseries and (b) other day care The Department has not commissioned specific research facilities participate in his Department’s Welfare Food on the use of branded generics in nicotine replacement Scheme by offering free milk to children of less than therapy. five years of age. [277850]

Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Dawn Primarolo: A breakdown of the number of Health what expenditure the NHS incurred on nicotine facilities participating in the Nursery Milk scheme in replacement therapy products in the most recent year England, Wales and Scotland is provided in the following for which figures are available. [277831] table.

Nursery milk providers June 2009 Country Provider Total

England Registered childminder 3,847 England Registered day care provider 16,446 England Exempt establishment 9 England Grant Maintained School 4 England Independent/Non-maintained School 23 England Local authority providing day care 348 England Non EC Grant Maintained School 1 England Non EC LEA School or Nursery 13 England Other 2 England Non EC Independent/Non-maintained School 10 England Exempt school 94 England Unknown 1

Scotland Registered childminder 310 Scotland Registered day care provider 1,697 Scotland Exempt establishment 1 Scotland Grant Maintained School 0 Scotland Independent/Non-maintained School 0 Scotland Local authority providing day care 38 Scotland Non EC Grant Maintained School 0 Scotland Non EC LEA School or Nursery 0 Scotland Other 0 Scotland Non EC Independent/Non-maintained School 0 Scotland Exempt school 0 Scotland Unknown 0

Wales Registered childminder 164 Wales Registered day care provider 1,042 673W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 674W

Nursery milk providers June 2009 Country Provider Total

Wales Exempt establishment 0 Wales Grant Maintained School 0 Wales Independent/Non-maintained School 1 Wales Local authority providing day care 32 Wales Non EC Grant Maintained School 0 Wales Non EC LEA School or Nursery 1 Wales Other 1 Wales Non EC Independent/Non-maintained School 0 Wales Exempt school 4 Wales Unknown 0

Total 24,089 Notes: 1.The exempts relate to places like a company providing a crèche for its employees, a registered children’s home, a community home or a health service hospital. 2. EC—refers to European Community.

The facilities in the following table are not currently Developing Countries: Community Relations participating in the scheme. Mr. Ancram: To ask the Secretary of State for Country Facility Total International Development for what reasons his Department’s Community Linking scheme has been Scotland Grant Maintained School 0 delayed; and if he will make a statement. [268753] Scotland Independent/Non-maintained School 0 Scotland Non EC Grant Maintained School 0 Mr. Michael Foster: A competitive tender process to Scotland Non EC LEA School or Nursery 0 contract a managing organisation to implement the Scotland Other 0 new Department for International Development (DFID) Scotland Non EC Independent/Non-maintained 0 Community Linking scheme is under way.Once a managing School organisation has been contracted and has worked with Scotland Exempt school 0 DFID on early inception plans, DFID will launch the Scotland Unknown 0 scheme. Developing Countries: Debts Wales Exempt establishment 0 Wales Grant Maintained School 0 Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Non EC Grant Maintained School 0 International Development what steps his Department Wales Non EC Independent/Non-maintained 0 School plans to take to assist least developed countries with their debt repayments in the current economic Wales Unknown 0 situation. [275923] Source: Multi Resource Marketing limited Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) has re-oriented its programmes to minimise the impact of the crisis on the poorest. We help countries through our country programmes, for INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT example through social protection programmes, and by working through multilateral organisations. We have also ensured that the recent G20 summit agreed important Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings measures to support growth in low-income countries, such as providing $50 billion to support social protection, boost trade and safeguard development. Many countries Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for have benefited from exceptional debt relief under the International Development how many members of heavily indebted poor countries initiative (HIPC). Through staff in his Department were dismissed (a) for our country programmes we are providing budget support under-performance and (b) in total in each of the last to certain selected countries which helps them to manage 10 years. [274307] their budgets.

Mr. Ivan Lewis: In each of the last 10 years less than Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for five members of staff were dismissed from the Department International Development what steps he plans to take for International Development for under performance. in response to the United Nations Conference on Trade Total dismissals in each year were also less than five, and Development Secretary-General’s request for a apart from in 2002 when six members of staff were temporary moratorium on debt servicing for developing dismissed and in 2006 when again six members of staff nations; and if he will make a statement. [275924] were dismissed in total. Mr. Michael Foster: The UK Government believe Providing the specific numbers in each of the other that existing mechanisms provide a thorough basis for years could potentially identify individuals concerned dealing with developing countries’ debts. The heavily and so breach confidentiality. indebted poor countries initiative and the multilateral 675W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 676W debt relief initiative provide comprehensive debt relief Overseas Aid for the poorest, most heavily indebted countries committed to poverty reduction. 35 countries are currently receiving Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State debt relief; of which 24 have received irrevocable debt for International Development if he will place in the cancellation. Library a copy of the Quick Impact Project Evaluation Any country that experiences debt problems can also report published by the Stabilisation Unit in March approach the Paris Club. This informal group of 19 2008. [276701] sovereign creditors, which includes the UK, agrees new Mr. Douglas Alexander: The Quick Impact Project arrangements with countries facing difficulties through Evaluation is a classified document not suitable for rescheduling and, for the poorest, partial cancellation. release. Overseas Aid: Health Services North Korea: Overseas Aid Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much and what Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for percentage of development aid was spent on projects International Development what assistance his related to population growth and reproductive and Department is providing (a) directly and (b) via sexual health and rights in (a) 2003-04, (b) 2004-05, non-governmental organisations to alleviate conditions (c) 2005-06, (d) 2006-07, (e) 2007-08 and (f) 2008-09. of poverty in North Korea. [277290] [277894] Mr. Ivan Lewis: A summary of the Department for Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International International Development’s (DFID) bilateral expenditure Development (DFID) does not have, and has never and an estimate of DFID multilateral expenditure spent had, a bilateral development programme in North Korea. directly on funding projects related to population growth Any DFID assistance is solely focussed on alleviating and reproductive sexual health is provided in the following the suffering of the people of North Korea. We are table. These figures exclude expenditure on wider health currently contributing to the EU’s programme of initiatives which will also lead to improved development humanitarian assistance. outcomes in these areas.

Total as percentage of overall DFID bilateral expenditure Imputed DFID multilateral DFID expenditure excluding (£ million) share (£ million) Total (£ million) administration costs

2003-04 114 48 163 4.6 2004-05 154 74 228 6.2 2005-06 180 77 257 6.0 2006-07 184 133 318 6.6 2007-08 190 129 319 6.4

Details of DFID’s 2008-09 expenditure are not yet Details of DFID’s 2008-09 expenditure are not yet available but will be published in the 2009 annual report available but will be published in the 2009 annual report in July. in July. The most recently available data can be found in Statistics on International Development 2008, which is available in the Library of the House and online at Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what bilateral aid his www.dfid.gov.uk Department provided for projects concerned with sexual and reproductive health and rights and HIV/ Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for AIDS in (a) 2003-04, (b) 2004-05, (c) 2005-06, (d) International Development what payments his Department 2006-07, (e) 2007-08 and (f) 2008-09. [277895] made to (a) United Nations Population Fund, (b) World Health Organisation, (c) UNICEF, (d) UNAIDS, (e) International Planned Parenthood Federation, (f) Mr. Ivan Lewis: Details on the Department for Marie Stopes International, (g) Interact Worldwide International Development’s (DFID) bilateral expenditure and (h) Women and Children First UK in (i) 2003-04, on sexual and reproductive health and HIV/AIDS are (ii) 2004-05, (iii) 2005-06, (iv) 2006-07, (v) 2007-08 and produced in the following table. (vi) 2008-09; and if he will make a statement. [277896] DFID bilateral expenditure on sexual and reproductive health and HIV/AIDS Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Department for International DFID bilateral expenditure Development’s (DFID) core, voluntary contributions (£000) to the UN organisations were as follows: 2003-04 217,914 2004-05 261,820 £ million 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2005-06 354,302 2006-07 387,294 UNFPA 18 20 20 20 20 20 2007-08 411,872 WHO 15.5 12.5 12.5 17.5 5.5 12.5 677W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 678W

John Healey: Subject to the approval of an order by £ million the House of Commons, the reduction in Band D 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 council tax in Surrey as a result of capping will be UNICEF 17 19 19 19 26 16 £3.18. UNAIDS 3 — 16 10 19 10 Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for DFID provided the following support via the NGOs: Communities and Local Government what estimate Marie Stopes International (MSI) (funding for four projects): she has made of the average cost to council tax payers £1,913,914 (2006-12) in Surrey of council tax rebilling for 2009-10 arising International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF): £42,999,990 from the capping of the Surrey police precept. [278097] (2008-13) Interact Worldwide (funding for eight projects): £3,861,233 John Healey: The Department does not make estimates (2004-13) of rebilling costs arising from capping action. Any Women and Children First UK: £49,893 (2007-09) rebilling costs are met by capped authorities from within DFID does not have a break down by financial year existing budgets. of the support we give to NGO projects. Information on country level contributions to the UN agencies and Housing Corporation: Public Relations NGO’s could not be provided without incurring disproportionate costs. Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of 24 April International Development what expenditure his 2009, Official Report, columns 911-2W, on the Homes Department incurred on reproductive health commodities and Communities Agency, which public affairs consultancies in (a) 2003-04, (b) 2004-05, (c) 2005-06, (d) 2006-07, were hired by (a) the Housing Corporation and (b) (e) 2007-08 and (f) 2008-09. [277897] English Partnerships in (i) 2005-06, (ii) 2006-07 and (iii) 2007-08; what the cost to the public purse of such hiring Mr. Ivan Lewis: This information is not available was in each case; and for what purposes public affairs without incurring disproportionate cost. consultancies were hired by the agencies in the period. Sri Lanka: Internally Displaced Persons [277124] Margaret Beckett: English Partnerships made no Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for payments for public affairs work in the years 2005-06, International Development what recent discussions he 2006-07 or 2007-08. It is possible that some spend in has had with the government of Sri Lanka on (a) relation to community consultation and engagement on freedom of movement of individuals in the camps for specific projects may have involved public affairs firms, those internally displaced as a result of the recent but it is not possible to separately identify these other conflict and (b) plans to return such people to their than at disproportionate cost. home areas. [277252] The only public affairs firm used by the Housing Mr. Michael Foster: I have repeatedly pressed the Corporation was APCO. The Housing Corporation Government of Sri Lanka to improve conditions in the made no payments for public affairs work in the years internally displaced persons (IDP) camps and to abide 2005-06 or 2006-07. In 2007-08 payments totalling £7,801 by international humanitarian standards, including freedom were made to APCO for the purposes of an article of movement to leave the camps. We have also continually written by the then Chairman of the Housing Corporation, held the Government of Sri Lanka to its stated obligation and for consultancy work associated with transition. to return at least 80 per cent. of the IDPs by the end of this year. Non-domestic Rates

Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what meetings COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT her Department has had with business rates software Council Tax providers to local authorities to discuss the system requirements and costs in relation to implementation of the business rates deferral scheme announced on 31 Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for March 2009; and if she will make a statement. [278083] Communities and Local Government how many council tax payers were resident in each English county John Healey: Communities and Local Government in each of the last five years. [278028] officials have held informal discussions with business rate software providers, convened by the Institute of John Healey: This information is not held centrally. Revenues Rating and Valuation, to discuss implementation Council Tax: Surrey of the scheme. Software providers have also been provided with the Sir Paul Beresford: To ask the Secretary of State for information we have shared with all English billing Communities and Local Government how much on authorities via two business rates information letters average the reduction in council tax liability for Surrey sent out on 31 March and 12 May. These letters are residents will be following the capping of the Surrey available publicly at: police precept for 2009-10. [278027] http://www.local.communities.gov.uk/finance/busratsl.htm 679W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 680W

Non-Domestic Rates Number of preserved right to buy sales, England Number of sales

Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005-06 5,014 Communities and Local Government what the 2004-05 7,331 quarterly receipts from business rates in each local 2003-04 11,699 authority were in each year since 2005; what the 2002-03 8,858 projected receipts are for (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and 2001-02 6,650 (c) 2011-12; and if she will make a statement. [277463] 2000-01 5,211 Note: John Healey: The information is not currently available. Early figures on PRTB sales are not available from RSR returns. However, details of the amount of national non-domestic Source: rates local authorities expect to collect in 2009-10 were Regulatory and Statistical Return by Registered Social Landlords. published on Thursday 28 May in a Statistical Release that is available on the Communities and Local Government Social Rented Housing website at: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for localgovernment/nondomesticrates2009l0f. Communities and Local Government pursuant to the Non-domestic Rates: Ports answer of 8 May 2009, Official Report, columns 450-51W, on housing: low incomes, what the net change to the stock of homes for social rent was in Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for each year since 1997. [275658] Communities and Local Government how many port operators have opted for the fast-track review of their Mr. Iain Wright: The following table shows the net business rate assessment offered by her Department; change to the dwelling stock of social rented dwellings how many such reviews have been completed to date; owned by local authorities and registered social landlords and how long on average it has taken to complete such in each year from 1997. reviews to date. [277773] Net change in social rented dwelling stock John Healey: Following implementation by the Valuation (Thousand) Office Agency, on 24 November 2008, of fast track arrangements for ratepayers with backdated bills who 1997 -25.9 want to question or challenge their assessment, 261 1998 -36.7 formal proposals, more commonly referred to as appeals, 1999 -25.3 have been received. All have been handled under the 2000 -39.1 “fast track”arrangements. As of 27 May 2009, 57 of these 2001 -48.3 have been fully settled. The average duration between 2002 25.9 receipt and full settlement of an appeal is 45 days. 2003 -67.1 2004 -85.6 Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2005 -63.4 Communities and Local Government if she will make 2006 -43.8 it her policy to publish each quarter a report of (a) the 2007 -55.2 number and percentage of port operators required to 2008 -14.6 pay business rates retrospectively that have made Source: payments, (b) the number of port operators that have Census 2001; Housing Flows Reconciliation and joint returns by local not paid retrospective business rates and (c) the authorities; Housing Strategy Statistical Appendix (HSSA) submitted number of port operators that have ceased trading in to Communities and Local Government by local authorities; Regulatory the preceding quarter. [277774] Statistical Return (RSR) as reported to the Housing Corporation by registered social landlords.

John Healey: The information requested is not available Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for centrally. Communities and Local Government how many Right to Buy Scheme homes for social rent were (a) built and (b) acquired in each year since 1980. [277995]

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Margaret Beckett: The following table shows the Communities and Local Government how many number of homes built and acquired for social rent in preserved Right to Buy sales there have been in each each year from 1991-92. Figures for the supply of local authority area in each year since 1997. [277996] homes for social rent are not available prior to this time.

Margaret Beckett: Figures for preserved right to buy Total for (PRTB) sales are not available at individual local authority England New Build Acquisitions Other social rent area. The following table shows the total number of PRTB sales by registered social landlords from 2000-01. 1991-92 21,770 3,940 — 25,710 1992-93 39,510 17,510 — 57,020 Number of preserved right to buy sales, England 1993-94 40,270 8,670 — 48,940 Number of sales 1994-95 40,720 11,470 — 52,190 2007-08 2,812 1995-96 44,220 12,730 — 56,950 2006-07 3,910 1996-97 29,600 12,870 — 42,470 681W Written Answers4 JUNE 2009 Written Answers 682W

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Total for England New Build Acquisitions Other social rent Communities and Local Government how many registered social landlords requested section 9 consent 1997-98 24,020 11,770 — 35,780 to dispose in each of the last three years; and how 1998-99 22,620 10,960 — 33,580 many of those requests were granted. [278023] 1999- 19,610 9,180 — 28,790 2000 Margaret Beckett: The total number of section 9 2000-01 18,230 8,860 — 27,090 consents granted in each of the last three years was as 2001-02 18,640 8,170 — 26,810 follows: 2002-03 17,510 6,450 — 23,960 2003-04 18,370 4,290 — 22,660 Total granted 2004-05 18,790 2,890 — 21,670 2006-07 1,463 2005-06 20,510 2,460 660 23,630 2007-08 2,223 2006-07 21,500 2,450 790 24,730 2008-09 2,025 2007-08 25,390 3,390 590 29,370 Source: Homes and Communities Agency Investment Management System Information about unsuccessful applications for section (IMS), and local authority returns to CLG. 9 consents was not collected in these years. Changes Figures from 2005-06 onwards for Recycled Capital were made to the system for collating consents data in Grant Fund, Disposal Proceeds Fund, and remodelled July 2008 and, as a result of these changes, the TSA will units cannot be broken down into new build and retain information on all applications from 2009-10 acquisitions. onwards. 5MC Ministerial Corrections4 JUNE 2009 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

The original answer referred to meetings that I held Ministerial Correction with officials from the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority on 6 February, 18 March, 6 August, 14 August Thursday 4 June 2009 and 15 September. The full correct answer should have been:

Jim Knight: I met with David Gee, managing editor CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES of the then National Assessment Agency (NAA), on National Assessment Agency 17 June and with David Gee and Ken Boston, chief executive of the Qualifications and Curriculum Authority (QCA), on 2 July. I also met Ken Boston on 3 July. Mr. Gibb: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, These meetings related to the delivery of national curriculum Schools and Families what meetings took place tests in 2008. As set out in Lord Sutherland’s report, between the Minister for Schools and officials at the there were regular meetings between senior officials in National Assessment Agency during 2008. [245828] the Department, QCA and NAA as part of the governance [Official Report, 20 April 2009, Vol. 491, c. 248W.] arrangements explained in the report to monitor QCA’s Letter of correction from Jim Knight: delivery of its remit. An error has been identified in the final paragraph of I also met with officials from QCA on 6 February, the written answer given to the hon. Member for Bognor 6 August, 14 August and 15 September to discuss Regis and Littlehampton (Mr. Gibb) on 20 April 2009. matters relating to QCA’s wider agenda.

ORAL ANSWERS

Thursday 4 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 373 HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION—continued Copenhagen Conference ...... 379 Parliamentary Access...... 388 Domestic Buildings (Energy Efficiency)...... 377 Electric Vehicles ...... 380 Global Population...... 373 Road Transport (Emissions)...... 375 LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 389 Topical Questions ...... 382 Business of the House...... 389 European Scrutiny ...... 387 HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 390 Parliamentary Questions...... 385 Freedom of Information Act ...... 390 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 4 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 16WS REFORM ...... 15WS Home Office Annual Repport ...... 17WS Transport, Telecommunications and Energy Independent Monitor Report...... 16WS Council ...... 15WS WORK AND PENSIONS...... 17WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 16WS Employment, Social Policy, Health and Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 16WS Consumers Affairs Council...... 17WS PETITIONS

Thursday 4 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 9P Schools (Essex) ...... 9P Schools (Isle of Wight) ...... 10P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 4 June 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, ENTERPRISE AND REGULATORY CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued REFORM ...... 629W Schools: Construction...... 657W Consumer Credit: Licensing...... 629W Schools: Playing Fields ...... 658W Economic and Monetary Union ...... 629W Schools: Safety...... 658W Members: Correspondence ...... 629W Special Educational Needs...... 658W Special Educational Needs: Disadvantaged...... 659W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 640W Special Educational Needs: Pupil Exclusions...... 664W Cabinet: Glasgow...... 640W Sure Start: Greater Manchester...... 665W Children in Care...... 640W Children: Protection...... 645W Climate Change ...... 647W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT...... 677W Departmental ICT ...... 648W Council Tax ...... 677W Departmental Training ...... 648W Council Tax: Surrey ...... 677W Departmental Work Experience...... 648W Housing Corporation: Public Relations ...... 678W Employment Tribunals Service...... 648W Non-domestic Rates...... 678W Faith Schools: Finance...... 649W Non-Domestic Rates...... 679W GCE A-Level ...... 649W Non-domestic Rates: Ports...... 679W GCE A-Level: History ...... 650W Right to Buy Scheme ...... 679W GCSE ...... 650W Social Rented Housing...... 680W GCSE: Citizenship...... 651W National Curriculum Tests...... 651W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 617W National Curriculum Tests: Reading Berkshire...... 652W Brass Bands: Finance...... 617W Pupil Exclusions...... 655W Football: Drugs...... 618W School Meals ...... 656W National Anti-Doping Organisation ...... 618W Schools: Asbestos...... 657W National Anti-Doping Organisation: Finance...... 618W Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 633W Sports: Finance...... 618W Asylum ...... 633W Borders: Personal Records ...... 634W DEFENCE ...... 624W Crime...... 634W Climate Change ...... 624W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 635W Defence Storage and Distribution Agency: Internet: Data Protection ...... 635W Redundancies...... 625W Members: Correspondence ...... 636W Royal Fleet Auxiliary: Manpower ...... 625W Passports: Fraud ...... 637W Somalia: Piracy ...... 627W Police: Powers ...... 638W Trident Submarines...... 627W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 638W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 611W DUCHY OF LANCASTER ...... 627W Employment Agencies ...... 611W Death: Epilepsy ...... 627W Members: Allowances ...... 611W Departmental ICT ...... 628W Honours: Arts...... 628W INNOVATION, UNIVERSITIES AND SKILLS...... 639W Minimum Wage: Darlington ...... 629W Departmental Billing ...... 639W Departmental ICT ...... 640W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 630W Carbon Capture ...... 631W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT ...... 673W Carbon Sequestration ...... 631W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 673W Climate Change: USA...... 632W Developing Countries: Community Relations...... 674W Coal-fired Power Stations ...... 631W Developing Countries: Debts ...... 674W Departmental Mobile Phones ...... 632W North Korea: Overseas Aid...... 675W Energy: Meters...... 632W Overseas Aid...... 676W Estuaries: Electricity Generation...... 630W Overseas Aid: Health Services...... 676W Nuclear Waste Export...... 631W Sri Lanka: Internally Displaced Persons ...... 677W Offshore Wind Farms ...... 631W Policy Adaptation ...... 630W JUSTICE ...... 616W Tidal Impoundment...... 630W Departmental Disciplinary Proceedings...... 616W Warm Front Scheme ...... 632W Departmental Procurement...... 616W Wind Power ...... 633W Monarchy: Succession...... 617W Wind Power: Health Hazards...... 633W Restorative Justice...... 617W

LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 612W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS...... 613W Legislation ...... 612W Climate Change ...... 613W Members and Peers: Expenses ...... 612W Deer...... 614W Written Questions ...... 612W Food Supply...... 614W Members: Correspondence ...... 615W PRIME MINISTER ...... 639W Renewable Energy: Waste ...... 615W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 639W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE ...... 619W SCOTLAND...... 639W Aung San Suu Kyi...... 619W Departmental Reviews ...... 639W Employment Conditions Abroad ...... 619W Occupied Territories: Housing ...... 620W TRANSPORT...... 611W Network Rail: Directors...... 611W Transport: Finance...... 612W HEALTH ...... 665W Blood: Contamination ...... 665W TREASURY...... 613W Dental Services ...... 665W Banks: Iceland ...... 613W Employment Tribunals Service...... 666W Excise Duties: Motor Vehicles...... 613W Epilepsy ...... 666W Revenue and Customs...... 613W Health Professions: Immigration Controls...... 667W Hospitals...... 668W WORK AND PENSIONS...... 620W Lung Cancer ...... 668W Children: Maintenance ...... 620W Lyme Disease...... 669W Cold Weather Payments: Hendon ...... 621W Measles, Mumps and Rubella ...... 669W Jobcentre Plus: Manpower ...... 621W NHS Appointments Service ...... 669W Jobcentre Plus: Telephone Services ...... 621W NHS: Innovation ...... 670W Jobseeker’s Allowance...... 622W NHS: Manpower ...... 670W Members: Correspondence ...... 622W Smoking...... 671W Pension Protection Fund...... 622W Tuberculosis: Vaccination ...... 672W Pensioners: Poverty ...... 623W Welfare Food Scheme...... 672W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 624W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Thursday 4 June 2009

Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 5MC National Assessment Agency ...... 5MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Thursday 11 June 2009

STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT GREATLY FACILITATES THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE VOLUMES

Members may obtain excerpts of their Speeches from the Official Report (within one month from the date of publication), on application to the Stationery Office, c/o the Editor of the Official Report, House of Commons, from whom the terms and conditions of reprinting may be ascertained. Application forms are available at the Vote Office.

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords, £3·50. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords, £525. WEEKLY HANSARD Single copies: Commons, £12; Lords, £6. Annual subscriptions: Commons, £440. Lords, £225. Index—Single copies: Commons, £6·80—published every three weeks Annual subscriptions: Commons, £125; Lords, £65. LORDS CUMULATIVE INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £40. Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volumeof House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. WEEKLY INFORMATION BULLETIN compiled by the House of Commons, giving details of past and forthcoming business, the work of Committees and general information on legislation, etc. The Annual Subscription includes also automatic despatch of the Sessional Information Digest. Single copies: £1·50. Annual subscriptions: £53·50. All prices are inclusive of postage Volume 493 Thursday No. 85 4 June 2009

CONTENTS

Thursday 4 June 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 373] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change Leader of the House House of Commons Commission

Business of the House [Col. 391] Statement—(Ms Harman)

The Economy (Supporting Business) [Col. 403] Topical debate

Defence in the World [Col. 427] General debate

Safeguarding Children (Private Schools) [Col. 487] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Road Safety [Col. 135WH] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 15WS]

Petitions [Col. 9P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 611W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 5MC]